The Sun. — London, England, 1850-03-09 00:00:00

f ee , • , : f ) , tO it oza .11 a ''Y a " v "* mu.s: , on. Member rept., scot leg the ie. 111, 1' i at I.eqtt to recta fee assent trteee prep.; th. + , tit Hee. (h'at's: man seei,l the recent., talt,ratior in e l is3 b e lllli,lll of th- e:atiltiy had hies n to all evic nt 7eer etal. 'Cho ores:tote, hoe ever, WIZN itoe refs •Ai)ti it wet CUILS db. the-it having Pzesed,,,, ' e ferns paying any pr.rtion of the they -r a Of the e ale; ry in tort h .pc of dmies. If t cite , lit sysit in, t',' v would tines wh et w v 's obliged Li e Jeep their ex rtidi , nre beyoue eue etr °Aw:t eaint. with the tavety hoot - air of the d at Y. ‘ l ittat haei teree the result of taking off the they u t. P" cora rewe ne,l from other count , ies ? Dui ht. k h e l 0,4 it that it sm o fixe I dutyb•ai. eel onimpeeede farth? ing Ceet a cheapeinl r e dlity . 11 ` . "re metuent th -y ire peel eirelere.te fixed it wou!d fell by tit,t, nor:wit abroad, toad ilier e ;„ s ' n f• by the course toy teal a topted fit ie t. Put that ate-un:, as Si m uch additional pro. it °r .' tit , ' pocket, f the fereigner, and took of their own.—(Caeer.) Again, there was tile iiicipo,titios nof the 11. e.. M•anb •r fir the West Riding, prepered with him to t tkee off the duty upon 0 301,,n 2e . ause he cmsidered it a 'nest ueest tax, as well t grc ,7 Injurious to the couetry at large , , which suffered I " , s from thet course. By the alterations in the teleib' e Y they had eltruhled the value of money, e t , b Y what hed been termed by the Right lion. Baronet (4 1.4 41 bargain they had made with the landlords.— tinq But they must ultimately come to the ques they what is a pural ?" (Raars Lug,hter.) Now Pitt em wer " Paying the same amount of name) , to the th t ,: i ,en alai pensioners and others, when it would put tiouble the aolount of wheat or any other commo- Nfelt formerly did, aid it was clear to him that that eo uti , °I things uiust sooner or later be altered. The 1 4 ,, i `rY would not rest satisfied so long as they saw those overpaid, while they were deprived of half their toi let e k and half of their property. The Right Hon. Be.. 1/ 04 , 4 "'d said th e o th er n i g ht that he (Mr. Spooner) it tu L aheer what he was going to ray, arid he had cheered Illy it ar and a lunch)—becauselhe cordi fere:red entirely agr e ed with him. lie had told the 8 that tie corn-laws were a delusion—that the bad ll „g .: 'cale would slide front under their feet ; and he of ' rented out to t h em t h e t fficts of the Currency Bill b e tBl9, He believed that considerable reductions might by their expenditure. For instance, let them doentto th e d oc ky ar d s , and they would find a great e at t r ( Xtiavagant excenditure that might be very safely h., a wth Again, there was the ordnance establishment, lei n " offices in Pall-arall and in the City—the object ke g e nt erely to increase the expense and render more lie t l a.ated and difficult the mode of conducting the pub- Hap„ ils 'ness. Even if the Admiralty was looked into, the r * ould be fouud good ground for reduction. Then ette a - ; e4 roe the Lords if the Treasury, cf whom Mr. tla t k ' ri g had said that the only use they were of was to te r , ( ! k a House, to keep a House, and to cheer the Minis hi3,""n he was wrong.—(A laugh.) He should give the - i i , l3 l 3ol 't to the resolutions of the Hon. Member for st Riding. t h r. 11 UME said he would not follow his Hon. Friend keweiitibject of the currency. He contended that no th e , e r had b e en given by the Right Hon. Gentleman to tle:P'eeh of his Hen. Friend. The Right Hon. Gen ,arl denied the facts brought tot ward by his Hon. e: e i i ". Now, such bring the case, it was their duty to (f ett iler thes e f ac t s . In the first place the Right Hon. lehi k e lann denied that the increase in the military es thatTzents amounts to six millions since 1835 ; and hat' ‘2 facts the increase amount rd only to 2,360,000/. tta w w ,eat was the fact? Why, in 1835, the military es oreal'elln-nts of this country, including the army, navy, an e 'zee, &c., amounted to 11,657,001)1. This sum had 18 ( 411 Y increased to 12,000,000/., to 13,000,0001, up to ip e 7 o,oo o/.—(lleter, hear.) The estimates in this re -4144 were last year 17,645,000/., and proving that the let h t [ 4 , : le in the expenditure, as regarded the military 6,o o ' n '"hrnent,, between now and lionsBs, had increased Pr i : ° ° o /•—(tiear, hear.) The Gentleman then 11,,,, -e L atled to read the resolution proposed by the Hoe. 04" i er fir the West Riding, and asked if any si p , to the Home could deny the justice f the prin th (I laid down in the :said resolution? It was true that e ex of late Pendit ure of the country had greatly increased Wu] and as a consequence the taxes had also been t ern Y increased. It was tiaid that 3 ear by }ear the Go eililtlent was decreasing the expenditure of the country, 1 0 4„ 14 at every effort would hereafter be made to further Q Q ;ae that expenditure. What proof' had they that the Feee• .erfltuent would do all in its power to bring down the i th e Unite ? Until the House refused the increase on of i i l lle ° 11 )e-tax, there was no manifestation on the part th e h e Government that they would endeavour to lessen tej leh "atdens of the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was only teat: -tee House refused the income-tax that the esti lre.' Were withdrawn and new ones introduced, and it ett s for this that the Right Hon. Gentleman took credit 4 e ,,, th e part of the Government.—(Ht ar, hear.) The Hon. e" t terean then referred to the last resolution moved by a He n. Member far Yorkshire, which referred to the e , of taxati on , which it attributed to the extravagant the of the country. He contended that unless ti le 'louse pledged itself by adopting these resolutions, t re y Could not mt an to reduce the burdens of the coun -11), In 1835 the number of men in the army amounted 1 1 ;' ,, 00. In 1847 the number were increased Why e1 1 ,',,t 7 • This year the number was 99,121. 1 aid they not go back to the numbers voted in 1835,? Year tee number of men in the navy were 26,841. 111 84 th e the number increased to 44,900. Where was ause f,r this increase? The Hon. Gentleman then t'rred to th e s t a ff o f the army abroad and at home, ‘44 b eal served that while the charge under this head Ount e d in 1835 to 118,0001., it increased in 1849 to `! 4 ,000/. Were tot all these facts a proof that we ought l return to th e state o f a ff a irs such us they existed in 35 ? The Hen. Gentleman then referred to colonial expenditure, and said that this and other ex p enses would a ster 4tii. b e reduc e d un le ss they acted upon the resolution uruittcd to the H o use by his Hon. Friend. Unless the (), i tt l ,? would exercise a discretion in t hese matters, in of allowing the Mirtistry to coutieue a system of e a „ e e asasy extravagance, the pensions would never be d.„`" to Ho therefore, urged the Hous e to be j ust, and ei t 'rto these resolutions, unless good ground were an to the contrary. • HERRIES would not have taken any part in this lisoussion had it not been for what had fallen from the 4 4 . Gentleman who last addressed the House. That i e ° l , ll ; Member had stated that no person could be sincere t kl uie desire to effect a reduction in the expenditure and th e (t i t!ole of the country who voted against the motion of pea sincerely Member for the West Riding. As one who h:a sincerely desirous of aidiug to the utmost of his per the r e du c tion of expenditure end taxation, he e • Herries) thought it right to state that he could with sincerity vote against the motion of the Hon. et e l tifr "'Man.—(Hear, hear.) The course proposed d it rded, its his opinion, no test of sincerity at all. It j et llet seem to him at all necessary, in order to the ob ili VieW, that the House should recapitulate that 1 8 14 every one perfectly knew—namely, that between l i a a s and 1850 there had been an augmentation of public th e r 7° 9 . They all knew that but too well; but to state " feet thus broadly without note or comment was cal- Wetad th e Only to mislead the public, and to impede rat her (ia promote the object. The Right Hon. Gentleman it Labouchere) had shown, and he had no doubt car otitly, that of the 6,000,000/. of augmentation 2,300,0001. 4 1 1 had arisen on the estimates for our naval and te l-t a c „PY establishments, and yet the House was invited 4 b: ; 'nrttl that the whole increase of 6,000,0001. was lt,: t eitally" attributable to that cause. Now, he (Mr. I.l l „ t 'es) could not assent to that proposition; and he l 4 ll kht that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Spooner) would t ea 'i! l Y, upon reconsideration, feel himt elf Justified in as ' taut to it either. He was also called upon to affirm Government, no foreign danger, or necessary cost of the civil ei - : e rontrent, or indispensable disbursements for the see f IQ our dependencies abrod warrant the continuance tai's increa s e of expenditure a ." Now, he might be tits- V ., ed to a sse nt to every word of this proposition; but (gear, not assent to the spirit in which it was ma de . f\rlear. h e ar.) if he did he should be inducing the ur se to declare that the present state of things in alit? Was not such as to warrant the maintenance of ...:Strong military and naval establishment in this country I t Whereas, in his opinion, the very revenge was th e fact. h w aee true, that there never was a time when this W 46 in a state of more complete repose than at 4 1 -(4 ot, with the exception of a l ittle e p isode in the adeterr a n ean —(H ea r hear, and a laugh)—but could c , 4l Ykeody look at the present state of Europe and say it o ' lt hibited such peculiar symptoms of quiet and tran tillitY as to induce us to choose this moment of, all n t e -ge ts, for an unusual reduction in our naval and mili kt'Y establishments?—(Hear.) The third proposition t rap the House was called upon to affirm was, " That pp! taxes required to meet the present expenditure im fte the op e rations of agriculture and diminish the ~U € l B f,,r the employment of labour in all branches of productive industry, Sze." He entirely assented to this i,osition. ' but what occasion there was for affirming th:er,hed yet to learn.—(Hear, hear.) He feared that 41 . 0 r• Gentlemen on the other aide of the House t-fbuld hear more or this subject before any great length elapsed.—(Loud cries of "Hear, hear," from C e uPPosition benches.) The assertion of the resolu te' l eas con was p sideratierfectly on on true ,some and other occasion it wold hethercasion be matter for or w art t hose taxes which bore on agriculture as well as ma ecaetures ought not to be accommodated to the altered ipldition of the country.—(Hear, hear.) T h e Ri g ht 11 t1 he Gentleyean the President of the Board of Trade , 0/led i nc li ne d t o invite the House to a discussion of Ils e question of our recent commercial legislation ; but It t hat was not properly the subject then before the of° -liell4°, he declined to follow him. The last proposition Honourable Gentleman's motion was, " That to t trinigh those evils it is expedient that this House 1 1 e 4' „,' I 'Pe to reduce the annual expenditure with all s eta able speed, to an amount not exceeding the b een which within the last fifteen years has eeProeed to be sufficient for the maintenance of the fe e- r ,' lt Y. honour, and dignity of the nation." Now, he tlL'ne declined to affirm that proposition. It was true tie; i n 1835 the estimates wire greatly reduced; but they-:t' te übs, (pent year they were augmented, and e el Continuel to be augmented for several successive et : 8 ; and so it would always be that whenever they si a t t -t ateted to make reductions greater than were con tete,,,ll,t with the safety, and honour, and dignity of the to - h " ; ' r Ys the immediate cons( quenee would be a return thi,;"gher expenditure. He remembered th at the tame Itt e ,,g,"ocurred after the reduction which th e Honourable ek . ""or for Montrose, with the assistance of the Whi g s, te oh e t ted in the expenditure of 1822 ; and so always d bt. Considerable credit had been given to the fe ° p . ,l l.ll rnetit that held office for a short thine in 1834.35 az ier ; s e low estimates of that year; but as one of the e;',„" e rs of that Government he begged to say that the le 4 s e l e - e tee were those which had been framed by the t° d ial; Government, and having due regard -heal} the circumstances under which they took office, h er Government of which he (Mr. Herries) W3i a mem tuought it expedient to adopt.—(llear, hear.) He Oka , liouse, instead of agrceing to the motion of 'at II 11 . 0) 1; :1c f ale rHE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 9, 1 850 Non. MI fO7 i?! , ' 11!id I`,) itit ; E C : t Hit Cornmitten with as sine:•'re a desire as aqy Ito , . att:er to reduce :).3 far as possible q!:u a,"O eNlim:.:to, which s , ete to be Proposed to th4m.—(Einar, iI ar.) Mr. M. GI SON found G,itieuvan up ~n this :notion pretty much ie the s?lbe mind. was he was last year; and that: he luid Kivei, fir stiti factory view of the vropositik.a than thee Elor. Gentle the Member 19r North War wicksiLire. The Hon. M.m. ber for North Warwicksl:ire- hail no: 1.411 e n into the error of refining overmuch upon the words 4f the reel - lutions; be did not hypereritteise, but he took the hron., mewling of the proposition in the sense in which it would be understood by the public; and being an a:IvOCAte row the repeal of oppressive tele. s, and, there fore, for a re - duction of expenditar,', he arts perfectly ear-istent iii voting for it. 'l'h,-ta was no other mode of submitting the proposition than that which iia:l been a lo;:t.al by his lion. Ft iend (Mr Cobden). If he fuel deferred it until the estimates themselves cane before the House, in order that each particular item might he discussed, it would have been impossible to explain his general views, or to propound a plan upon every minute detail. He (Mr. Gibson) voted for this proposition mainly because he was desirous of seeing the policy carried reit of removing the taxes which impeded production, limited the field for the employment of labour, and prevented the progress of im provement. Put our taxes upon one side, and our military and naval armaments upon the other; and he would ask what was the preferable course to be taken iu the pre sent condition of England, with its vast population and its limit( d field for the employment of labour ? On the one hand the people were t used in order to Maid them from some contingent danger that might possibly arise, and we limited the field of employment, increased pau perism and crime, and prevented tne spread of know ledge, in order to have large defensive armaments to pro tect them against remote, imaginary, and contingent evils; on the other hand, to weigh the probabilities of foreign dangers, and consider whether 'it would not be more rational to risk the remote contingencies, and give the relief to industry which would ticetue from the re• peal of taxation. On balancing the advantage a upon one side and the other, with every desire to take that course which %as best for the country, he had cometo the conclu sion that our defensive armaments must be considerably reduced, and the surplus so created applied to the re peal of the taxes which pressed down industry, in creased pauperism and crime, and produced evil results to the welfare of the community.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had not quite fairly represented the objects of his Honourable Friend. The Right Honourable Gen tleman said, " I will not consent to abandon the defences of the country—l will not leave England unprotected by an army and a fleet." But who asked the Right Hon. Gentlemen to do so? Nobody had ever asked the House to do more than consider the probabilities of danger from a fair and reasonable reduction in our de fensive armaments. His Hon. Friend had brought the motion forward at a proper time; and by fixing upon a year when the general expenditure of the country was less than it was at present, he called upon the Executive to explain why the increase upon that particular year should become a permanent addition to the national ex penditure. It was not sufficient, upon a question of this nature, for the Government to account for any temporary increase arising out of special causes. What they were asked for was, a reason why there should be a perma nent increase in the expenditure of neatly 6,000,0001. since 1835.—(Hear, hear.) They must show either that the protection and defences of the country in 1835 were inadequate, or that circumstances had arisen subse quently which called for an increased permanent ex penditure. It was not enough to talk of Oregon, Tahiti, or Don Pacifieo, fir they were special matters, and could not be urged as grounds for a permanent annual increase of expenditure. It was on such grounds as these that his Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding brought forward his proposition. The first question, then, was, were the arma ments of 1835 adequate to the defence of the country, or were they not? He had frequently heard it said that eery hasty and inconsiderate reductions had been made in all the material preparations for warfare; and as such a statement bore materially upon the question of whether our defences were inadequate in '1835, he had taken some little trouble to inform himself as to the real facts of the case. He found, then, that in this year of destitution, 1835, there were in the dockyards 59,671 loads of tim ber; and in 1848, the date of the last return, there were only 56,048 loads. Of another important article, deck deals, averaging 40 feet in length, there were 32,145 loads in 1835, and only 22,311 loads in 1848. He further found that in the important article of hemp there were in 1835, the year of " destitution," 7,221 tons, and in 1848, the year of " abundance," only 5,067, being one third more in 1835 than in 1848. Next, as to tar. In 1835 there were 15,250 barrels, and only 8,977 in 1848. Of fitted-rigging there were 52 sets in 1835, and only 47 sets in 1848. Of bawls of yarn there were 5,584 tons in 1835, and 3,554 tons in 1848. But no article was of more importance than chain cables. He found then that in 1835 there were 857 chain cables, and 645 in 1848. In 1835 there were 170 lower masts, and 160 in 1848 ; in 1835 there were 237 top masts, and 228 in 1848 ; in 1835 there were 52 bowsprits, and in 1848 54. He had thus gone through a few of the principal articles of naval stores ; and he thought the facts were strong in relation to the argument that the de fsnces in 1835 were inadequate to the safety of the country. The Government would forgive him for reminding them, as they had censured his Hon. Friends for bringing forward this economical proposition, when they were themselves disposed to re duce the expenditure, what might have been their posi tion at this moment, if they had followed the policy which they indicated to the House in 1848. They came down to the House in 1848 2,000,000/. behindhand -2,000,0001. deficit, not caused, he admitted, by their own policy, but by circumstances over which they had no control; and they actually proposed, with the ordi nary expenditure exceeding the revenue, to increase the ordinary expenditure. Had they pursued the policy which they then indicated, instead of having now a sur plus of 2,000,0001, he was prepared to show they must have had a deficit this year of more than that amount. Had they, then, any reason to complain of those who scrutinized the subject of the national armaments, be cause they showed how the expense was growing year after year? With regard to the army, it was open to question the policy of maintaining the present scale of military force now kept up in the United Kingdom. Afeer the peace, in the year 1816, the Noble Lord now at the head of her Majesty's Government foresaw that unless great efforts were made to counteract it, the habit of having a large military force would become engraf ted upon the people , though in a state of peace. What did the Noble Lord say in re. ference to this question? He said—" Among the many reasons urged for enormous peace establishments, the most absurd appeared to him to be the assertion that they were necessary for our own security, in order to avoid a speedy renewal of hostilities. The House could not fail to recollect that for twelve years Ministers had been soothing the impatience of the country by stating that the war was continued to prevent the necessity of au armed peace; yet now they ventured to tell the people, after all the sacrifices they had undergone, au armed peace was all they had acquired." Lord Grenville, too, said the same thing. Just as the war which ended in 1815 caused the subsequent establishment of what the Noble Lord very forcibly called a system of armed peace, so each successive little military effort had led to an in creasein our military establishments; and when the oo casion for that effort had passed away we had not returned to the position we had occupied before. The same system still prevailed; and his Honourable Friend was perfectly right in asking, not for the records of all those particular and special occasions, but to ask the Go vernment, inasmuch as the onus probandi lay upon them, to give some rational sod intelligible grounds for the permanent increase, mainly caused by our naval and military defences, in our expenditure to the amount of 6,000,0001. a year. Our colonial policy had been stated as an argument for an increase in the army. Fresh colonies had been addei to the empire it might be said. Teat was true ; but it did not answer the proposition of his lion. Friend, namely, was it reasonable that these colonies, instead of being a source of strength, should be a source of weakness by drawing upon us for money and for armies? His Hon. Friend wanted to know whether the people of this country should be taxed in order to supply the means of defence to colonies well able to defend themselves. Indeed, it was obvious that the amount of the forces we did send to them was quite inadequate to prevent the invasion of an enemy, whilst they were not entitled to ask of us that which was merely for their own police purposes, or their own in ternal regulation. Neither was it reasonable that. we should increase our military establishments for the pur pose of supplying troops to our colonies. He denied, in the next place, that our increased military power was for the protection of trade. Whenever there was any interference with foreign powers, either by our fleets or our forces, he received letters from his constituents im ploring him to go to the Foreign-office, because their trade was injured by it. At the present moment w e had an immense fleet in the Mediterranean, and the moment there was interference in Greece he received letters from his constituents comoplaing of Admiral Parker stopping merchant vessels. And very naturally so, because they knew it was impossible to interfere with them without directly or indirectly injuring our own interests. To tell him, then, that the Mediterranean fleet was thus protecting our trade and interest was a little too much. The American flag was just as much unmolested in every port in the Mediterranean as the British . flag, though it was not supported by the same amount of naval force. In 1848 we bad 31 ships and 8,0 00 men in the Mediterra nean. Was it possible such a force could be viewed by foreign powers as anything but a parade of armaments? Could it have any effect on foreign nations but to excite some feelings of apprehension that we had intentions of internal affairs? some country, or interfering with its affsirs? This constant parade of our arms in foreign countries bad rather a tendency to provoke hostilities and to excite jealousy and bad feeling in foreign nations. We prided ourselves on having done something with our sword for foreign trade; we fancied that the Chinese war, which had ended in the necessity of maintaining a large fleet on the Indian and Chinese stations, and keep possession of Hong-Kong, had opened fresh markets, and would very materially extend the trade of the country. What was the fact? Why, that our exports to China and Hong-Kong were gradually declining every year, and it was his belief, would go back very nearly to what they were before we interfered at all. We should then find ourselves in this position—that we should have saddled ourselves with the necessity of maintaining a large fleet in those seas, and expensive establishments at Hong-Kong, without any corresponding advantage to the trade and manufactures of this country. If the House were asked to take the only rational course for extending trade, by reducing the tea duties, the answer was that the sbite of the revenue would not admit of it, and our expe ndtture was so large that we ceuld not afford to sacrifice so great a branch of the national revenue. Any reasonable person would infinitely pre. fel fm;ilitievg of having a la.l - 4cr consul/4 , 6 , n of h:s th:.t would b ,, obtaH ,, d by the re:;tic'ion the .a. to ;1 ~v piy ..24V4/1,: IUV lot ot3;10 - 0 t ;t: of Chins. wes irmt• dal to egtwicier wi:h a reduction of the a-nty in this country, we were to Inerf asg our torces iu lad' a. Although these were p&g.l ifry the East India Compaq, and did not figure in the es , inntt , s, yet they swelled the littlf-pay list and it , (-ifee Live He very much doubted whether our syg tern in mills, on which we prided ourselves so mw,b, was, alter all, benefiting Engl , ind to the extent to which some persons rep e :lowed. 'rho lion. Memher below him seemed to think that ti.e annexation of the Pati . aub had opened fre,,h Markets tor our manufactures. He very much doubted i his, and suspected that it' our military ardour in India had not been inflamtd by very large amounts of prize money, we should not have had these constant wa-s. Ile thought the gnat difficulty we had to con tend with in the reduction of the military, naval, and ordnance establishments was the excessive zeal which the members of those different professions had for the interests of their respective callings. He did not blame those gentlemen; he would not impute to them in terested motive.; it might be a desire to see the particu lar branch to which they belonged increased to what they reget ded as its greatest pitch of efficiency; but that was not the point of view in which the House must look at a matter of this description. He would read a pas sage from Sir Henry Parnell's work on Financial Re form, which expressed the Matter much more clearly and forcibly than any words of his own could do:—" Every public department stands prepared to give the most con tideet tea;:ons why it is absolutely necessary to keep up the amount of its expenditure to the exact point at which it now is. Every kind of sophism, insinuation, and assertion is worked up with vast ingenuity into a case to resist every attempt at effective retrenchment, and not only Government and Parliament, but also the public, sutler themselves in this way to have their judg ment influenced rather by the personal authority of offi cial men, who are always endeavouring to keep their re spective services in the highest possible state of efficiency and show, than by the principles of a sound system of finance, which requires that that portion of the public expense set apart tor purposes of military preparation and protection should be regulated by the quantity and measure of the danger to be guarded against." He thought this extract fully expressed the views with which his lion. Friend had submitted this motion to the House. As to any sudden or unforeseen danger arising to this country, from a collision with a foreign power, that ap peared to him, in the present state of the intercourse be tween the principal countries of Europe, to be quite out f the question. When we considered the power of the press, of commercial intercourse raising up interests to counteract those feelings that might spring up betwixt nations where no such extensive trade existed, it was im possible to suppose that any hostilities of importance could arise between this and any foreign powers without ery lung and ample preparation, and a vast deal of pub lic notoriety and discussion. It was not possible, out of any accidental circumstances, to bring great countries into a state of hostility, and he did not believe we should again see the time when wars would be undertaken for purposes of conquest, when hostile armaments should be sent forth to establish the ascendancy of one race over another.—(Hear.) These were matters that belonged to past ages, and which it would not be wise in that House to make the groundwork of their policy, when considering the amount of force necessary fur the de fence of the country. He found that the whole naval, military, and ordnance expenditure of the country for 1849 was 17,000,6951., and rather more than 11,000,000/. in 1835. He could not understand by what process of reasoning or dexterous haedling of figures, it was con trived to make out that there was an increase in the naval and military expenditure to the amount of not more than 2,000,0001. But even if it were as his Right Hon. Friend stated, the question still remained to be auswered—Why were we to spend more by 6,000,000/. than we spent in 1835? Why was his Hon. Friend to be represented as proposing to leave the country defenceless, when he con sented t apply no less a sum than 10,000,0001. to the naval and military defences, a sum more than double the amount of the whole expense of the civil and military go vernment of the United States? Those who supported this motion could not be charged with any indifference to the security and independence of England, or to the inte rests of the public creditor. He hoped before the debate closed that some Minister would explain clearly what was the meaning of the policy of reducing men without reduc ing officers. It was true that the number of seamen em ployed was to be diminished, and some regiments reduced in force but they kept up the number of officers as a framework upon which the number of men could easily be augmented, and they sent ships to sea with too many officers, but inefficienctly manned. It had been stated over and over again by some of the most distinguished officers of the British navy, that the number of officers was entirely disproportiored to that of men; so great was it that many were unable to get employment, and thus prevented from acquiring experience, or obtaining a fair share of the emoluments of their profession. This was one of the many reasons why the list of the ineffec tive service was so extremely large. We had 150 ad mirals when there was only work for a dozen; and when the Right Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir J. Gra ham), in the Committee moved by his lion. Friend, asked on what principle this number had been fixed, the late Secretary for the Admiralty (Sir H. Ward) could only answer that he did not exactly know. The list of captains and commanders were in the same condition; the rules of promotion established were departed from constantly on slight pretexts. He thought these exces sive numbers were maintained through some mysterious interest, which prevented the House from being the fair representatives of the people. He appealed resrect fully to agricultural Members not to turn their backs on motions of this description. He could not understand, now that the corn-law hail been disposed of; upon what principle it was that the mere possession of land should make a man feel bound to support extravagant establishments. He undertook to say that the share which any landed gen tleman might, at some time of his We, get in spoil arising from extravagant establishments could not re compense him for the burden of taxation that must be imposed upon his property to maintain theta. He called upon them to act up to the professions they had made in the country, to go into the whole question of expenses, and cut down needless offices and places. They could with perfect consistency give their votes for his Hon. Friend, and he believed that by so doing they would be taking the only course open to them to obtain the reduction of the malt-tax and the hop duties. He believed they would thus be conferring an important benefit on the country at large.—(Divide, divide.) He saw no reason why the motion should not have the sup port of Hunourahe Gentlemen opposite. If his friends had framed a clap-trap motion for the purpose of en snaring gentlemen opposite, they would have left out all the matters relating to naval and military defences, and couched it in some such words as these :—" That in con sequence of the altered state of circumstances brought about by the repeal of the corn-laws, it is necessary to reduce salaries and establishments."—(Loud ironical cheering from the Opposition.) Unless Honourable Gentlemen opposite would honestly and clearly join in support of the reductions now proposed, it would be im possible to effect that removal of taxation which they had in view. Mr. HENLEY said that the question te be determined was, how they were most likely to achieve that economy which, he believed, both sides of the House were anxious to procure.—(Hear, hear.) But when the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down talked of clap-trap motions—when he recollected the speech of the Hon. Member for Montrose that night, and when he remem bered the able and temperate speech of the Hon. Mem ber for the West Riding of Yorkshire—when he found that none of those lion. Gentlemen grappled with any particular branch of the question, or gave an opportu nity to the House to express an opinion upon it—and when he heard the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester mixing up with this question questions of ()lions and tyrannical taxation, pauperism, and crime, cheek-by-jowl with the public credit, he naturally asked what did all this mean?—(Hear, hear.) Was this mo tion sincerely intended to effect reduction or not? — ( Hear, hear.) Now, he was not going to vote upon the speeches of Hon. Gentlemen that night, but upon the motion before the House. The first clause of that motion was incorrect, for he (Mr. Henley) did not admit that the increase of 6,000,000/. was in the army and navy estimates ; 4,000,C00/. out of the 6 , 000,0001 . might bo so.—(A. laugh.) In the miscellaneous expenditure there might have been an increase of forty per cent., but in the military and naval ex penditure there was not the same proportion. But when he came to the operative part of the motion he found that, with Chinese exactness, it proposed to go back to a previous standard of expenditure without reference to whether the course was fitting, expedient, or necessary. He asked therefore whether the motion was intended in sincerity?—(Hear, hear.) Was it a motion which its supporters thought would be carried? The object of the supporters of this motion was this. A party, which he admitted was a great one, and possessed the means of agitating in the country, having refused to vote the taxa tion proposed by the Government a year ago, and the Government having accordingly taken the hint, were enabled to say to the country, " See how the Government are reducing taxation," in order that they might go on agitating. That was the A B C of the present motion. Into no one branch of the expenditure had the supporters of the motion gone to enable the House to come to a vote. The speeches of lion. Gentlemen were temperate enough, but it was impossible to go back to the expendi ture of 1835. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester had given a curious illustration upon the subject of naval stores. To prove that the year of which he spoke was a year of destitution the Right Hon. Gen tleman pointed to the expenditure of the year 1835, and then pointed to the amount of stores in 1834. Mr. M. GI BSON—The first vote proposed to Parliament, after 1834, by the Government of the Right Hon. Baro net the Member for Tamworth.was a still further reduc tion upon previous ones. Mr. HENLEY —And very natural that it should be. —(Hear, hear.) But to prove his position, the Right lion. Gentleman hal t a lk e d a b out ca bl es an d h em p and other things in store in 1834, but not in 1835. But if a prudent Minister found his warehouse full, why should he purchase more in 1835?—(Hear.) To do that would be like buying in a second barrel of ale before the first had been exhausted. But the Right Hon. Gentleman had not explained why the estimates had been so low in 1835. We had then a decrease in the force of men, and the necessary consequence was an accession of stores. — (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for the West Riding and the Hun. Member f Montrose, in the motion before the House, declared their readiness to accept th e expen diture of 1835 as the minimum; but in their speeches they said they would be contented with the average of the three years. Now between which of the two did they mean to make their election? The average of the three years would amount to a million more than the average of the year 1835. The truth was - that motions of this kind only expressed the views of particular persons, and were intended to effect parti cular objects. He dared say it was convenient for Hon, Genicraeu oppOstte to bring fn.rvard motioirt, bebur they krt , w, tho satcn: time, that they wc:e not proicetive of real iboonvehi , uce to t,ll,:tt - ,t , who Faro:: the Tr,a , ;uty :erelic.,.—(Lqt.:Otter.) If Hon. Gcntiemen opposite really wanted to etlect reiuctions in the public burdens, they would endeavour to effect their object by bringing forward specific and tangible motions. lie was himself prepared to vote for a reduction of taxation in p4rticular directions, and he should renew a motion upon the subject which he had I:rought forward before, but it would not be a general or vague statement like the one now before the House. Lord J. RUSSELL—The Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last but one (Mr. M. Gibson) concluded his speech with a pathetic appeal to those connected with the agricultural interest to vote in favour of this motion; but I cannot say that the Right Hon. Gentle man paid them a very high compliment ; because he urged that they were not likely to derive so much ad vantage from the continuance of the burdens to which they were subjected, as from the share they might claim in the proposed reduction of expenditure.—(f Lear, hear, and laughter.) Sir, I own I do not think the compliment was a very high one ; and I doubt very much whether the plea used will prove so effective as that cajolery of the ladies of which we heard so much in the debate of last night.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) With regard -to the question before the House, I must say that, agreeing with the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), and others who have spoken in this debate, I think the Hon. Member for the West Riding has made a most judicious speech in sup port of a very injudicious motion.—(Hear, hear.) Tee motion begins by calling upon this House to affirm that the increase of 6,000,0001. since 1835 has been caused principally by successive outlays fur defensive armies. It does not say in terms that that successive augmenta tion has continued to the present day, but any ono read ing the motion would conceive that if the House of Com mons affirmed the motion there had been that successive augmentation. The fact is, however, as my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said last year, that there was a reduction of 1,400,0001. in the military establishments of last year, and in the proposed estimates of this year there is a reduction of 700,0001. making in the two years a reduction of 2,100,000 L - hear.) I say, therefore, it is not fair to talk of successive augment a ti ons , and not admit that the Government has made reductions in these establishments. But then the Right Honourable Gen tlemen the Member for Manchester says the Govern meat is bound to show how this increase of 6,000,0001. has arisen. Sir, I should have thought that the speech of my Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade had shown to a very great extent how this in. crease of 6,000,0001 had arisen, partly in the civil es tablishments, partly in taking charges which were local charges on the Consolidated Fund, and partly in increase in the military establishments. But the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester either did not listen to my Right Honourable Friend, or he requires some further explanation on the subject. With respect to the increased amount on account of mili tary establishments, which, according to the Honour able Member for Oxfordshire, was upwards of 4,000,0001., there is a great reduction to be made. There are the excesses for establishments of former years, appropriations in aid, which, in 1835, were de ducted from the expenditure. There is then the item fur Post-office pa c k e t service, which is an increase over the expenditure of 1835, to no less a sum than 737,000/. I beg the attention of the House to these particular items. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Man chester, says that all this is an increase in our esta blishments. Now, a portion of this sum of 737,0001. used formerly to be defrayed out of the revenue of the Post office; and it never came before the car of the House of Commons at all.—(Hear, bear.) That course was fre quently objected to by the Hun. Member for Montrose, who at that time, as at others, said that the whole ex pense of the country ought to come before the view of the House; and that if you have a sum taken out of the revenue, that sum should be placed in the estimates and voted in the House. Sir, as a matter of principle, that is a fair claim, and different Governments have endea voured to comply with the request. But what do we see as the consequence? No sooner is it done than the Right Hon. Gentleman;the Member for Manchester gets up and says there is an enormous increase in our expen• diture.—(Hear, hear.) But, in point of fact, the ex pense to the country is the same, although the mode of voting is more regular. Now, Sir, the observation of the Right Hon. Gentleman applies not only to this charge, but to many other charges in the shape of in crease since 1835. No doubt there has been an increase of expense in the packet service since 1835, but the ob• ject with which that expense was incurred, whether wise or not is not now in argument, was to facilitate trade, and the communication between this country and its colonies, as also with foreign countries. So that it is altogether a misrepresentation to say that this increase has been on account of our military establishments, when it has been incurred for the purpose of facilitating our oommerce and communication with other countries. These various sums reduce the whole amount of increase in our military establishments in 1649, as compared with 1835, to 2,365,0001. With regard, again, to the army, which is the first of those questions which we should propose to enter on to-night. The army has had in creased duties to perform since 1835. I will not at this moment enter into the important question, whether or no it is wise to defend our colonies; but it is certain that the army has been called upon to perform various duties of that kind, and that in every duty they have had to per form, whether against the enemy in the field, or in ex hibiting temper and good conduct at home, they have preserved all that energy and good conduct which have always distinguished them.—(Cheers.) But the whole amount of increase since 1835, on account of the army, has been only 111,000 Z; and that amount, considering the increase in the empire, and the situations in which it has been placed, is assuredly no extravagant or extraordi nary increase. With regard to another of the sums with respect to which it is stated that an increase has occurred, and which has taken place, it is contended, on account of the aristocracy, and to facilitate private pa tronage. I mean the pensions of soldiers. Formerly the soldier was only entitled to receive his pension at the end of the year. By an arrangement effected by Lord Chatham there was a deduction of 5 1 . per cent. in these pensions, but there is now a different arrange. ment, and as a matter of fairness not of right, the whole of that deduction has been taken off, amounting to no less than 501. a year. But the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester also wishes to know why there is not a diminution made in the number of regi ments and officers? That, Sir, I think is a matter of detail which my Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of War will explain; but in the course of the present year the second battalion had been reduced, and, although officers are retained at the pr e sent moment, it is not intended to fill up the vacanci es , and there will, conse quently, be a reduction in the number of officers. If increase in pass to the navy, we ce rta i n ly see a great in the expenditure on account of it. But that, again, is a subject requiring ver y full consideration when it comes before us. If, however, the Hon. Member for the West Riding has any rational reduction to propose in these estimates, let him propose them at the proper fault, although the Right l. time.—(Bear, hear.) t y for Manchester seemed to thi n k th a t we should, with the S H ir o , n d . o G n e o n t tl m em ea a n n :h o e fi m n e d ra a b n eyr estimates of 1835. I voted for those estimates when out of office. Some of them I concurred in moving when I was in office, and I sea no reason to find fault with them in the circumstances of that year. But this I know, Sir, that after those estimates had been' reduced there was a constant pressure out of doors and in this House to increase them.—(Hear.) And I remember that when my Right Hon. Friend the Chaneellor of the Exchequer, then Secretary to the Admiralty, s howed the increase which was afterwards m a d e , he was able to defend him self on . the ground th a t t h e Government h a d no t suffi ciently increased the navy or made sufficient provision for that noble branch of the service for the defence of the country. If that was the case, Sir, I do not think succes sive Governments have been so much to blame for in creasing the naval expenditure of the country. Again, what ever advantage this country may derive by means of steam must be participated in by other countries; and it is absolutely necessary that we should hale a steam navy to cope with a for ce o f t h e sam e kind which an enemymight bring against 11F.—(H ear, hear.) I think it impossible that th e steam navy cou ld b e s et on f oo t without some errors in t h e commence ment of so new an enterprise. I do not think it a subject of regret that we should have a steam navy so very efficient, and so well calculated to form a defence for the country. — (Hear, hear.) In the ordnance, again, no doubt we haveuaadar.dea consider a bl e i ncre ase; bat we stated at the time the re asons o f that increase; we s tated that the artillery engineering forces required a longer ap prenticeship to science than the cavalry and infantry, and that it wa s d es i ra bl e t h a t a force which could not be so easily made perfect should not be allowed to fall too low. I beli eve t h at pr i nc i p l e is a sound one . I t i s one which has been con fi rme d in this House, and I do not think that any person whose opinion on the subject is worth listening to would recommend a reduction in these departments. With regard, however, to one part of our naval expenditure, there has been a practice which pre vailed for many years, an d u pon which my late lame n t e d friend Lord Auckland began a reform which my Right Hon. Friend last year carried into complete effect, by not having a greater number of men borne than is voted by the House of Commons. Now, before I turn to the civil expenditure, I will jest look at the proposal of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Yorkshire (Mr. Cob den), as he stated it to the House. He proposed that 5,800,0001. should be reduced from the military esti mates, and 600,000/. from the civil estimates.—(Hear.) That was the,result, no doubt, of very great deliberation on his part, and he of course must have considered in what manner these estimates were to be reduced, and how the service of the country could be efficiently per formed. But there is one thing that he has entirely lost sight of. He said, " I will give you ten millions for the purposes of the military services, and no one can com plain that I grudge you the means of defence for the country." But it so happens that these estimates are divided into effective and non-effective services, and with regard to a great portion of them, namely, almost the whole of the non•effective, you are bound either by law or by good faith not to diminish these sums. It is impossible that Parliament, with any regard to honesty or its own i credit, can touch the sums voted to these men. But these heads amount in the present year to no less than 3,784,000 L, and the sums voted for the effective service amount to no more than 10,518,000 L; and on that sum the Hon. Gentleman proposes to reduce no less than s,Boo,oool.—(Hear, hear.) I ,should like to know what the Hon. Member for Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) means to do. Unless he is bound to nothing more than a general resolution—unless he has a plan of his own, he is bound to reduce to such an extent the naval and military forces of the country, that I really do not know how any one can possibly say that an effective force for the defence of the country can be kept up. I should like to hear his particulars. Does he mean to re duce 30,000 or 40,000 men in the army? Is it 10,000 or 20,000 men in the navy that he means t 6 propose to have reduced?—because without some such reductions as th , se it is quite impossible that 5,500,000/. cal be re cluc.ed.—(ll.-sr, hear.) Ho'sover, other Honourable G..ntletnin za sz:y , ho' it is certainly not a re. , ticqien of the naval and military means of the country that is to be proposed, but that no doubt the civil services will afford the :means of that reduction. But I must again ask, whether or not it is advisable, without looking at those several items, to say that you will go back t the estimates of 1835? With regard to many of these sub jects public opinion has been such that the Government going with that opinion have proposed a very large in crease of expense. There has been a very great in crease on the subject of education, I believe not less than 180,0001. or 200,0001. Now do Honourable Gen tlemen who do not go to these extreme lengths about reducing the military expenditure propose to cut off that increase? There has been another very considerable sum, amounting altogether to 570,000/, all of which has been increased for the constabulary force in Ireland, and other expenses of a similar nature. Why, that was pro posed —a great part of it—by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel), when he pro posed the repeal cif the corn-laws, and when he put that which had hitherto been a local charge—a charge mainly affecting the landed interest, upon the con solidated fund. Now, does the Honourable Gen tleman mean to transfer that back again from the consolidated fund to the local rates ? Does he in tend to reverse the motion of the Hon. Member fur Bucks (Mr. Disraeli), and instead of transferring a large sum from the local rates to the consolidated fund, do they mean again to transfer these large sums from the consolidated fund back to the local rates? I should like to know if any of those who voted for the motion of the Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire are going to vote for this motion, which is a direct contradiction of the other.—(" Hear, hear," from an Honourable Member, and laughter.) The Honourable Gentleman cheers that sentiment. I certainly voted against the mo tion of the Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire, for giving 2,000,0001. to the real property of the coun try by placing local charges on the consolidated fund; but I certainly cannot agree to the repeal of that Act of 1846, to which, I think, we are bound in honour to adhere. Well, then, the sum of 6,000,0001. is indeed very much reduced. With regard to upwards of two millions of it, it consists of charges that were formerly taken in diminution of votes, or that were on the public revenue, or that were in some other way not an actual increase of expenditure. That accounts for nearly 2,000,000/. There is another 'portion which has in creased in the civil expenses, which I know is a portion that this House will hardly wish to diminish. But if Hon. Gentlemen do wish to diminish them on the occa sion of the miscellaneous estimates being brought for ward, every one of these votes not on the consolidated fund may come under the revision of this House; and at that time Hen. Gentlemen may propose their motions for reductions. There remains, therefore, but a small part of the 6,000,0001. on which reduction can fairly be made; and I put it to the House whether it will agree to a general resolution that seems to pledge us to reduc tion or 6,000,000/., when perhaps by refusing to grant money that would be requisite for the public service, and not agreeing to votes which the Government should think necessary, it might afterwards be found that two millions was the utmost that could be reduced in the ex penditure.—(Hear, hear.) But then the Hon. Member for the West Riding has a most convenient proviso with respect to this motion. There seems to be on the face of it somewhat of imprudence, in saying, that whatever might be the state of the country—whatever the danger that may arise in three months, or a year, or two years, that you will fix beforehand what will be your exact ex penditure on the military forces of the country. But then, the Honourable Gentleman says, " Oh, yes! but in the case of any circumstances requiring extra military preparations, of course this resolution will be neglected, and a larger sum will be readily voted." But if this is really to be the case, I cannot see the use of the resolu tion at all. If the ouse is to retain its discretion after the resolution is passed, why should it not keep its dis cretion as it is now ? Why not retain the power to say, " There is an increase of expenditure absolutely necessary for the safety of the state ; we are not fet tered by any resolution, and therefore shall at on ce pro ceed to vote the amount?" Really, if it were not that the Hon. Gentleman can't be accused of views of that kind, one might suppose that the Hon. Gentleman was open to the accusation sometimes made against Members of this House, believed to be ambitious of office, namely, that they wish to escape while in office from the votes they have given before—(Laughter)—because with this proviso, if the Hon. Gentleman were to become Chancel lor of the Exchequer the very next month, he might rise and say, " that the circumstances of the country were quite changed; there is no longer either a necessity or justificaiion for the resolution I formerly proposed, and I must ask the House for exactly the same votes as were granted to previous Governments." But without accus ing the Honourable Gentleman of anything of that kind, I think he has rather committed himself by some of the speeches he has made in the country—(Cheers and laughter from the Protectionist benches)—in which he said the expenditure has increased ten millions since 1835; it is a most profligate expenditure, and it is kept up for the promotion of the sons of the aristocracy— (Renewed cheering from the same aide)—who ought to be otherwise provided for, and we are bound to refuse it any longer. The Honourable Gentleman has frightened himself and the country very much with that declaration. —(A laugh.) Re has not taken the pains to look into these items; he had not found out that many of these charges were charges that have been on the revenue— that many of them were for the increase of education, and other votes for science and art, which he, as well as others, would have been ready to assent to. And hav ing so done, he finds himself committed to bring before this House the consideration of this subject. I think it would have been much better if he had made a more practical proposition, after a careful examination of all these different estimates, and had somewhat retracted the accusation that 12,000,000/. were spent in this pro fligate way, and especially that the officers of the army and navy wore guilty of the mean practices that he charged them with.—(Protectionist cheers.) Well, Sir, having said this, I however wish to say also what I think is really due to the Hon. Member, that I believe hispalling the attention of the country to the general expenditure of the nation has been productive of very useful results, by enabling the Government to make reductions which otherwise it might have found itself unable to effect; and I don't mean to deprive the Honourable Gentleman of any credit that may be due to him in this respect. But, Sir, when I say this, I must altogether protest against the view of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson). I will not follow the Rights Honourable Gentleman through his views with regard to Greece or China; but he laid down, as it were, as an axiom, that if any injury were done to a British subject in any part of the globe, the proper course for a Minister to take is not to resent that in jury, but to disarm altogether, and propose some reduc tion in the tea duties, or some other tax—(Laughter)— and to leave British subjects altogether without protec tion.—(Mr. M. Gibson here interposed a remark that was inaudible in the gallery.) The Right Hon. Gentle man says that this does not imply his meaning; but he must recollect the old saying, " Nec arms sine stipendiis, net stipendia sine tributis." And bow, again, are British subjects to obtain redress, unless we maintain a sufficient force to sustain our claims, I really cannot imagine—l doubt whether any Minister of this country, if he were obliged to say, " We don't mean to resort to force in any case, and we have not the means of resorting to force," would be likely to obtain that redress for injuries offered to British subjects abroad, which I must tell the Right Honourable Gentleman they demand, and demand, too, in no very soft terms; because, in that very case of China, when the British merchants were obliged to pay two millions, and threatened with imprisonment and durance, they were not slow in transmitting com plaints to this country, and the friends of the British merchants at home were not slow in making representations that some redress ought to be obtained. But really we have been told to night that as we have low prices we must have low establishments; and, in deed, it appears that some think we must have low views as well—(Cheers and laughter)—that we are, in every case where injury may be done to our commerce by any interruption of our amicable relations with foreign Powers—and such an interruption in any case I sin cerely regret, because I well kuow how mischievous it is—but we are told that we must comply with every demand that the Governments of those countries may think it necessary to make, while redress has been asked for and refused. Sir, we have had no Government in this country that has adopted that principle, no states man who has ever swayed the destinies of this empire ever since the Revolution—not even that most pacific of Ministers, Sir R. Walpole, believed that when British subjects were injured, and had a right to ask for redress, that that redress should be enforced, if necessary, even by recourse to arms. It would be quite a new policy in this country for a Minister to pursue any other course. —(Cheers.) Sir, with regard to this motion, I believe the House will not interpose a resolution of this kind in the way of going into Committee of Supply. The Hon. Member for the West Riding, who brought forward this motion, is fond, I believe, of political predictions — predictions which are not always justified by the event —(Loud laughter)—and some of those predictions he lately made in a speech delivered in the country. I read that speech with some attention, and I found that in one part of it the Hon. Gentleman says, " Oh, the Govern ment will not adopt our proposals for reduction. They will reject all real economy. Some apparent diminution may be made, but anything of the sort will be followed w sp i e ll e see eh You of his that Government in course of time will go back to the tbhyeaHsounb.sedieuneanetmaineuretaosled." an his aoutdihetorrpya—rt,, estimates of 1835. They will reduce the estimates to that scale, but they will not do so when we bring for ward our motion, because if so we should be Ministers in their place."—(Laughter.) Well now, but these two predictions seem so opposed—they are so contradictory in themselves, that it would appear as if one of them must come right.—(Hear, and laughter.) But I can assure the House that we shall not, in the first place, refuse to make reductions. We have been making re ductions since 1848. I stated that, in our military estimates alone, in the course of two years, we effected a reduction of 2,ooo,oool.—(Hear, hear.) As to offices—in the course of last week alone, two offices fell vacant which will not be filled up, and another office I propose to reduce next week, in point of salary. Whenever occasions happen—whenever we find that an office can be reduced, or that the salary is ex cessive, we shall be ready to seize these opportunities of retrenchment.— (Hear, hear.) As to the second predic tion of the Hon. G ent l e man, that we mean, although we will not profess it, t o go back to the scale of 1835—why, I must say— Mr. COBDEN—WiII the Noble Lord tell me when I made the speech to which he is referring? Lord J. RUSSELL—The speech—l read it in a newspaper—(Laughter)—but I will have the newspaper looked for, and bring it down to the House and read it. —(Laughter and cheers.) I assure the Hon. Gentleman that I paid great attention to his speech.—(Hear and laughter.) However, I was going on to say that, not denying but that the estimate of 1835 might have been upon the proper scale for that particular year, we do not think, for various reasons, some of which I have stated, that there has been any undue increase in the naval and °Monnee estimates; and as for the general estimates, it is evident, from the facts which I have stated, that it is impossible, in respect to them, that we can go back to the scale of 1835 without an undue re duction of our military and naval forces, and the refusal of many votes for the promotion of education and other useful purposes—a course which it would be moil inexpedient to adopt.—(Hear, hear.) We, therefore, do not propose to go back to the estimates of 1835. We shall be ready, whenever opportunity serves, to make reductions, but we will not for the sake of popularity, or for any other purpose, pretend to make reductions which we think would be most injurious to the interests of the empire. The House of Commons, of course, has its duty to perform, and that duty would not be per formed by affirming the resolution of to-night. When ever the Minister of the Crown brings forward estimates, it ought to be the duty of the House to weigh and con sider these estimates, and to vote them, not according to a previous and general resolution, but according to the wants of the different services of the country, and their general view of what the interests of the country require. —(Hear, hear.) Such is the obligation which rests on the House of Commons. Ther e i s a l s o an obli gation resting on us, to bring forward no extravagant and excessive estimates. Bat there is also an equal obligation upon us, not to reduce the estimates below the point which we think necessary for the mainte nance of the honour, the dignity, and the safety of the empire.—(His Lordship resumed his seat amid pro longed cheering.) Colonel SIICTHORP (who arose amid the cries of a division) said that be should not support the party of the Hon. Member for Manchester, or the party of the Noble Lord, thinking that it was six of one and half-a dozen of the other—(Laughter) —and not having the slightest confidence in either.—(Laughter.) He was curious to know how far the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth would go in supporting the man of "unadorned eloquence," but as he had no confidence in either of the contending parties —as he believed that they were all rogues and jobbers together—(Great laughter)—he therefore thought the beat thing he could do was to take up his hat and take his leave. [The Gallant Colonel immediately suited the action to the word, took up his hat, bowed ceremonieusly to the Speaker, and then walked deliberately out amid per fect peals of laughter . ] The House then divided, when there appeared—. For the amendment ... ... ... 89 Against it ... ... ... ... 272 Majority against the amendment ... --183 The House then went into Committee, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. Mr. F. MAULE then said that at that late boar he should merely propose the vote for the number of men for the service of the year, without entering into any lengthened details in justification of that vote. Last year the number of men proposal had amounted to 103,000 ,• and his Hon. Friend the Member for Mon trose had then moved that the numbor should be reduced t 0.100,000. Bat the present vote was merely for 99,128 men. He had further to observe that the vote did not always show the actual amount of the force to be maintained ; and the fact was, that the estimate of the present year showed a reduction of 14,719 men, as com pared with the number in 1848-49. It was said, how ever, that while they reduced the number of men they made no reduction in the number of officers. But in the present estimates there was proposed a reduction of not less than 128 officers, with a reduction of 4,000 men. He had further to observe, that so far was it from being true that the number of officers had been more than proportionably increased as compared with the increase in the number of men, that the fact was, that while in 1835 the proportion had been one officer to 17 men, the proportion at present was one officer to 20 men; and since 1835 there had been an increase made of only one officer to 150 men. He was no advocate for keeping up an undue number of officers; but he was still less an advocate for reducing them to the number barely sufficient for commanding the men in existence at the time; because it should be apparent to every one that the most econo mical mode of maintaining the force at all times was to keep it in such a position that if an exigency arose it could be increased in the shortest possible time at the least possible expense. The Committee would find that the estimate under that head at present, as compared with the estimate of last year, consisted of a reduction of 4,126 men. In effecting that reduction they had struck off the second battalions created in the year 18 i 5; and they had adopted that course because they had found that the second battalions did not completely an swer the objects for which they had been formed, and that the men in those battalions lacked the comforts which it was desirable that every member of the army should possess. With these few brief explanations he should move a vote of 99,128 men for the land service during the year. The vote having been put from the chair, Mr. HUME said he thought that his Right Hon. Friend had shown no reasoa why they should then vote a number of men so mach larger than that voted in the year 1835, and in the three or four subsequent years. He felt, however, that the subject was one which they could not fully discuss at that late hour, and he should therefore move that the Chairman should report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. F. MAULE said that ho was prepared at any moment to justify the vote. Mr. B. OSBORNE said he should he prepared to show that a considerable reduction might be effected in the pro posed number of men. But he felt that they had arrived at too late an hour to render it possible for them pro perly to discuss the question that evening, and he there fore supported the proposal of his Hon. Friend. Lord J. RUSSELL intimated that he should not ob ject to the motion. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and ob tained leave to sit again. The Turnpike Road and Bridge Trusts (Ireland) Bill passed through Committee. In reply to a question from Mr. GROGAN, Lord J. RUSSELL said he should leave the Parlia mentary Electors (Ireland) Bill on the paper for Monday evening; but he should not brillg it on at a late hour. In reply to a question from Mr. GOULBURN, Lord J. RUSSELL said he should bring on the Navy Estimates after the two first votes on the Army Esti mates should have been disposed of. The House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. COWES, ISLE OF WIGHT. (FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.) COWES, MARCH 9. ROYAL YACHT SQUADRON INTELLIGENCE. RESIGNATION OF THE VICE-COMMODORE.--Sir Bellingham Graham has resigned the office of Vice- Commodore of the Royal Yacht Squadron, and notice has been given to the members that another will be elected at the May meeting. C. M. Talbot, Esq., the Marquis of Conyngham, and G. 11. Acker, Esq., are mentioned as likely parties to be elected ; each have splendid yachts. That building for Lord Conyngham is to be ready for sea early in May, and is considered to be the finest sea boat White has built ; she is 225 tons, and is to be schooner-rigged. Be the gentleman selected to fill this high and honourable office who he may, he cannot do more than the late Vice-Commodore did to forward the interest of the Squadron. The Flirt was the first afloat, and the last to lay up ; her worthy owner was always at the station ; there was hardly a day passed but he was at the Squadron-house, and he always conducted himself in so agreeable a manner to all that he was a general favourite THE EAST COWES PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.--..MT. Ranger, the superintendent-inspector, opened his court at the Medina Hotel, on Tuesday, and has been since daily inspecting the state of the town, and hearing evidence. lie seems the right sort of gentleman for the office ; he will not quarrel with anybody, nor allow any body to quarrel with him, and thoroughly understands the business he is sent on. REDUCTION; IN THE ARMY.—A number of men are daily passing through this town, discharged from the different regiments at Parkhurst Barracks. Men of good character get 21. given m, and their passages paid home. The Hermann American steamier is just reported in sight. NAVAL IN TELLIGENCE. PORTSMOUTH, FRIDAY.—The Fairy yacht, Captain Lord Adolphus Fitzclarence, G.C.11., embarked his Royal Highness Prince Albert, Major-General Bowles, and Colonel the Hon. C. B. Phipps, at the Royal Clarence Victualling Establishment, Gosport, this morning, at a quarter-past ten, and conveyed them to Osborne, to inspect the progress of the works there, returning with the royal party at four o'clock, when a special train conveyed them back to London. The royal standard was not hoisted, not were any of the usually attendant ceremonies of guard of honour, salute, &c., observed. Admiral the lion. Sir Bladen Capel, K.C.8., the Commander-in- Chief, Major-General Lord Frederick Fitzclarence, G.C.8., the Lieutenant-Governor, and their respec tive staffs, were in attendance. Commander Bedford, of the Lily, came down to day and took up his commission to the above vessel. IN PORT AND PIFTING. In Harbour—The Victory, Illustrious, Blenheim, Excellent, Rolla, Fairy, Fanny, and Echo. In Dock—The St. Vincent, Winchester, Fox, Fan tome, and Penelope. In the Basin—The Lily. In the Steam-Basin—The Blazer, Birkenhead, Pike, Asp, Flamer, Comet, Elfin, Victoria and Al bert, Hecate, and Termagant. PLYMoUTn, 11aucii 7.—Thelime' brig was paid wages on Tuesday, and sailed yesterday for the coast of Africa and the Falkland Islands. The Linnet brig sailed yesterday for Falmouth, to take the next mail to the Brazils. The Phaeton, 50, which arrived on Sunday after noon from Portsmouth, was paid wages yesterday, and will probably sail to-day (Thursday) for Lisbon. The Conflict screw-steamer will accompany the Phaeton to the Tagus. Wind—S.W., very light. WOOLWICH, MARCIE 8. APPOINTMENTS. Clerks—John P. Harris, to the Blenheim, 56, steam-guard ship, at Portsmouth; William L. G. Drew (1847), to the Illustrious, 72, depot-ship of ordinary, Portsmouth. The Nankin, 50-gun - frigate, built from a design by Mr. 0. W. Lang, assista.nt to the master-shipwright at Chatham, is to be launched on Saturday, the 16th inst., at Woolwich Docky4 al. The gates of the dock- ) yard will be opened for the admission of the public to .. viFw the launch at 2 o'clock P.M., but it is riot iii. pt.cted to take place before half-past 2 o'clocki 7- tr a .„ '4 quarter before 3. The Nankin has had her bptttani cippered to the height of eight feet fore : ,4 apit: . 34 , , . ~.....,... j nine feet aft from the keel upwards, and csiff7. - -v).iV < . siderable progress has been made in laying the iiii ' A . V o , ls q? over which she is to pass when launching.. T e 11 : 51 galleries for the accommodation of visitors are also in a forward state, and will accommodate a consider able number. The Sulphur and Nymph hulk vessels are to be moved from their present moorings to make that part of the river clear until after the launch. - - A large quantity of stores, mostly old iron, and considerable number of useless boiler. tubes, were landed at the dock -yard to -day, having been brought home from Malta in the Hercules store•ship, and brought up the river in lighters from G-reenhithe, where the Hercules remains at moorings, in conse quence of her great draught of water. The Jasper steam-vessel, Master-Commander Wil liam Bryant, has been placed under orders, to assist in towing the Nankin, 50-gun frigate, to Chatham, immediately after the launch takes place. PARLIAMENTARY DIVIS I ONS. 'rom the Yotes and Proceedings of the House tf amunonsa FRIDAY, MiRCII S. SUPPLY.-REDUCTION OF EXPENDITURE. Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question proposed," That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair :" Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words " the net Expenditure of the Government for the year 1835 (Par.. liamentary Paper, No. 26', 1847) amounted to 44,42 ',COOL ; that the net Expenditure for the year ended the sth day January, 1850 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 1, 1150), amounted to 50,853,0001.; the increase of upwards of 6,000,000/. having been caused principally by successive augmentations of our warlike establishments, and outlays for defensive armaments: " That no foreign danger, or necessary cost of the Civil Government, or indispensable disbursements for the services in our Dependencies abroad, warrant the continuance of this increase of Expenditure: " That the Taxes required to meet the present Expendi ture impede the operations of agriculture and manufactures, and diminish the funds for the employment of labour in all branches of productive industry, thereby tending to produce pauperism and crime, and adding to the local and general burdens of the people:— "That, to diminish these evils, it is expedient that this House take steps to reduce the annual Expenditure, with all practicable speed, to an amount not exceeding the sum which, within the last fifteen years, has been proved to be sufficient for the maintenance of the security, honour, and dignity of the Nation," instead thereof:—Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The House divided:— Abdy, Thomas N. Acland, Sir T. Adair, R. A. MAJORITY—AYES, 272. Pinner, Sir E. Kuntz, G. P. Foley, J. H. Mure, Colonel Forester, G. C. Naas, Lord Forster, Mathew Newdegate, C. N. Fortescue, J. W. Newry, Viscount Fox, S. L. Norreys, Lord Freestnn, Colonel Ogle, S. C. French, F. Ord,; William Fuller, A. E. Oswald, A. Glyn, G. C. Owen, Sir J. Goddard, A. L. Packe, C. W. Gordon, Admiral Paget, Lord C. Goulbarn, Henry Paget, Lordrieorge Grace, 0.D.,: Palmer, Robert Graham, Sir J. Palmerston, Via. Grenfell, C. Pascoe Parker, John Grenfell, Charles W. Peel, Sir Robert Grey, Sir G. Peel, Frederick Grey, Ralph W. Pelharn,.D. A. Grogan, Edward Plumy; William Grosvenor, Lord R. rlowdee; W. a. Grosvenor, Earl Ptumptre, J.P. Guernsey, Lord Portal; Melville Guest, Sir J. Power, Nicholas Hallyburton, Lord Price,lSir Robert Halsey, T. P. Prime, Richard Hamilton, G. A. 'acy, P. Harcourt, G. G. Rawdon, Colonel Ilatchell, John Reid, Colonel Hawes, B. Repton, GI W. J. Hayter, W. G. Ricardo, Osman Heald, James Rice, E. R. Heathcote,(G. J. Rich, Henry Heneage, Edward Robartes, T. J. Henley, J. W. Romilly, Colonel Herbert, H. A. Ronailly, Sir John Herbert, Sidney Rumbold. C. E. Herries, John C. Russell, Lord John Heywood, James Russell, Edward S. Ilildyard, T. B. Russell, F. C. Hobliouse, Sir J. Rutherford, A. Hobbonse, T. B. Scrope, G. P. Hodgson, W. N. Seymour, Lord Hogg, Sir J. W. Shell, R. L. Holland, Robert Shelburne, Earl of Hood, Sir A. Simeon, John Hope, A. Slaney,:Robert Hornby John Smith, J. A. Hotham, Lord Smollett, A. Howard, Lord E. Somerset, Captain Howard, C. W. Somerville, Sir W. Howard, E.G. Sotheron, T. H. 8. Howard, P. B. Spearman, H. J. Inglis, Sir It. Stafford, Augustus Jermyn, Earl Stanford, J. F. Jervis, Sir John iiitanley.:E. H. Jocelyn, Viscount Stanfield, W. R. Johnstone, Sir J. Stanton, W. S. dolliffe, Sir W . G. Staunton, Sir G. Jones, Captain Stuart, H . Kildare, Marquis of Sturt, IL G. Knox, Colonel Talbot, J. H. Labouchere,lllenry Taylor, T. E. Langston, J. H. Tennent, R. J. Lascelles, W. S. Thesiger, Sir F. Lemon, Sir Charles Thompson, Alderman Lewis, G. C. Towneley, John Lewisham, Visc. Townley, R. G. Lindsay, Colonel To wushe nd, _C apt. Littleton, E..R. Trevor, G. Loch, James Turner, George Locke, Joseph Tynte, Colonel Lockhart, W. Vane, Lord H. Mackenzie, W. F. Verney, Sir 11. Mackie, John Vesey, Hen. T. Mahon, O'Gorman Waddington, U. S. Mahon, Lord Wall, C. B. Manners, Lord J. Walsh, Sir J. B. Marshall, William Watkins, Colonel Martin,:C. W. Wellesley, Lord C. Masterman, J. West, F. R. Matheson, Colonel Westhead, J. P. Manic, Fox Williamson, Sir 11. Maxwell, Hon. J. P. Wilson, James Melgund, Viscount Wilson, Matthew Mlles, P. W. S. Wodehonse, E. Milnes, R. M. Wrightson, W. B. Monsell, William Wyvill, Marmaduke Morgan, 0.: Morison, Sir:W. Mulgrave, Earl Mundy, William MINORITY—NOES, 89. _ . Anson, Colonel Arehdall, Captain Armstrong, Sir A. Armstrong, R. B. Arundel, Earl of Ashley, Lord Baines, M. T. Baring, H. B. Baring, Thomas Baring, Francis Barnard, E. G. Barrington, Lord Bateson, Thomas Bellew, B. M. Beresford, William Berkeley, Admiral Berkeley, H. F. Berkeley, C. L. . . Bernal, Ralph Birch, Sir Blackall, S. W. Blair, Stephen Blandford, Martinis Boldero, H. G. Bowles, Admiral Boyle, Colonel Bramston, T. W. Brand, Thomas Bremridgc, Richard Brisco, M. Broadley, H. Brocklehurst, John Brockman, E. D. Brooke, Lord Butler, Sir Y. Bunbury, E. H. Burrell, Sir C. Burroughes, 11. N. Busfeild, W. Buxton, Sir E. Campbell, W. F. Cardwell, Edward Carew, W. P. Carter, John B. Cavendish, C. C. Cavendish, W. G. Charteris, Francis Chatterton, Colonel Chichester, Lord J. Childers, J. W. Christy, Samuel Clements, Charles Clerk Sir George Clive, R. H. Clive, H. B. Cobbold, J. C. Cocks, T. S. Cole, Hon. H. A. Colvile, C.R. Compton, 11. C. Corry, henry Cowper, W. F Cubitt, William Curteis, 11. M. Dalrymple, Captain Dawson, T. V. Deedes,%W. Denison, Edmund Denison, J. E. Dodd, George Douglas, Sir C. Douro, Marquis of Drummond, Home Duckworth Sir J. Duudas, Admiral Dundas, G. Duiidas, Sir David Dunne, F. P. Du Pre, C. G. Ebrington, Viscount Edwards, 11. Elliot, John E. Enfield, Lord Estcourt, J. B. B. Elision, Earl: Evans, William Farrer, James FergusonZeol. Ferguson, Sir lt. TrI.LIIB. Mena Henry Hill, Lord M. Adair, Hugh E. Hall, Sir B. Pilkington, James Aglionby, H. A. Hardcastle, J. A. Rendlesham, Lerd Alcock, Thomas Harris, Richard Reynolds, John Anderson, Arthur Hustle, Alexander Iticardo, J. L. Baillio, 11. J. Henry, Alexander Salwey, Colonel Bennet, Philip Haste, Archibald Sidney, Alderman Blake, M. J. Heyworth, L. Smith, John B. Blswitt, R. J. Ilepe, Henry T. Spooner, Richard t Bright, John Huinphery, Ald. Stanley, Edward Brotherton, Joseph Hutt, William Strickland, Sir G. Brown, W. Keating, Robert Stuart, Lord Dudley Cayley, Edward S. Kershaw, James Sullivan, Michael Clay, James King, P. J. Tancred, 11. W. Clifford, IL M. Lacy, H. C. Thicknesse, R. A. Coles, 11. R. Lennard, T. B. Thompson, Colonel Currie, Raikes Lushington, C. Thompson, George Devereux, J. T. Meagher, Thomas Thornely, T. Dick. Quintin _ Mangles, R. D. Tollemache, F. J. Duncan, Lord Marshall, J. G. Trelawny, J. S. Duncan, George Martin, J. Wakley, Thomas Ellis, John Milner, W. M. Walmsley, Sir J. Evelyn, W.V. 31illon,IViscount Wawn, J. T. Ewart, William Morris, David Willcox, Brodie Fagan, William Mowatt, Francis Williams, John Fergus, John Mullings, J. R. Willoughby, Sir 11. Fitzwilliam, G. W. Nugent, Lord Wood, W. P. Fordyce, A. D. O'llaherty, Anthony Wyld, James Fox, W.J.: Osborne, Ralph Frewen, C. 11. Pechell, Sir G. Gibson, T. M. Greene, John Foto, Samuel M. Pigott, Francis TZLLIati. Cobden, Richard Hume, J. RAILWAY SHARE MARKETS. BRISTOL, MARCH S. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The market to-day has been some what depressed. The transactions were as follow : Bristol and Exeter, New Shares, 9% dis.—Great Western, Quar ters, 14 1 / 2 . LIVERPOOL, MARCH S. STOCK EXCHAINTGE.—W e experienced a slight depression in our share market to-day, and the value of the chief stocks and leading shares is quoted lower than yesterday. There was a good business, however, done, the market closing rather firmly at the quotations. The transactions were as follow : Lancashire and Yorks hire, Consol. F ifths, 8% dis. Ditto, Preference, 124—London and North- Western, 105—Ditto, New Quarters, % dis.—Ditto, Quarters (C), p.—Midland, 40%—Ditto, Halves, 24/. 13s. 9d. dis. —Salisbury and Birmingham, 9/. 12s. 3d. (B), 6 dis.— Shropshire Union (Railway and Canal). 3L dis.—South- Eastern and Dover (No. 4), 6—York, Newcastle, and Ber wick (G. N. E Purchase), 6 per cent. till 1850, 6IA dis.—York and North Midland, 18%—Dutch Rhenish, 61. is. 3d. MANCHESTER, INlAlicit 8. STOCK EXCHANGS.—Our share market was very heavy to-day, and the amount of business done was limited. The prices remain stationary, at about last quotation. BIRMINGHAM, Mascit 8. STOCK EXCHANGR.—Business on our Stock Exchange to-dav was better. The transactions were as follow :—London and s North-Western, 105% Midland (Birmingham and Derby ), 14—North Staffordshire, 1 0 3 / 4 dis.—Shrewsbury and Birmingham (A), 7% dis.—Ditto (13), 5% dis.—Shropshire Union, 31. Bs. 9d. dis.—South Staffordshire, 3. YORK, Masai 7. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The transactions to-day Wlllll 11111 follow York, Newcastle, wed Berwick, 14/. 10s. 3d.— Ditto (Newcastle Extension), 9—Eastern Counties, 71. Ss. 9d. —Midland, 39%. ------------ BANK OF ENGLAND. (From: last night's Gazelle.) AnAccount, pursuant to the Act 7th and Bth of Victoria, cap. 112, fir the Week ending on Saturday, the 2d day of March, 1850. 185 VI DZPAITXINT. Notes i55ued........ 30,376,160 Government debt • • 11,615.100 Other aecuritiai —• • :1,984,960 Gold coin and bullion 16,099,03 Silver bullion —— . • 977,077 £30,376,160 I 30,17‘,1 60 1. BfARSILUAL, Chief Cashier. .o. Dated the 7th day of March, I BANKING D . X. Proprietors capital • • 14,553,000 Rest • • •••••• • • • • • 3,692,534 Public deposits (in cluding Exchequer, Commissioners of National Debt, Sav ings-banks, and Di- , AITIC6IIT. .... Government securi ties (including Dead Weight Annuity).. 14, 419 .75 9 Other securities .... 10,423,03. Notes . . 11,367,88 S Gold and sliver coin.. UMW vitiend accoxnts).. 7,638,208 Other deposits •••• •• 9,881,89 Seven day and other b 111.1•••• •• •• •• •• •• 1,09G,306 X 36,962,347 Z 36,969,141 M. MARSHALL, Chief Cashier. 150. Datod the 7th day of March, la, REMARKABLE FAMILY HISTORY.-011 Friday last Mrs. Susan Clarke, of Rushm e re, near Ipswich, died at the advanced age of 90, leaving her husband. who is now 95 years of age, to lament the loss of an affection ato partner, to whom he had been married no less than '7O years. There are 10 children now living, and, it i s st , p . posed, at least one hundred grand-children, but at sent the number is not accurately known. Sixty-ei glat years since they lost one child, since which lengthened period there has not been a death in the family! ' rho oldest child is now 68 years of age; the youngest is , 47. !—lpswich Express. w