The Sun. — London, England, 1851-05-27 00:00:00

red— any t tor- Gen red Co ernai- 1 had aban- THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 27, 1851. commendam, and not to a dissenting church, such as was at pres,nt the Roman Catholic in Ireland.—(Rear.) Lalor's case was there-fore no precedent in this instance, for when Lalor was tried the b;,lief in too Roman Ca tholic religion was proscribed in this country, and it conseqcenily had no benefices or other property. Lalor had, however, done what would have been illegal at any time —he had (the Hon. and Learned Gentleman quoted from the State Trials) instituted divers persons to the benefices containing the cure of souls, had pronounced divorces, and had performed all other acts pertaining to the spiritual jurisdiction. But passing that period alto gether, and coming down to later legislation, he (Mr. Keogh) had a right to appeal to the Noble Lord, not as a lawyer, but as a man legislating for all classes of her Mairsty'a subjects. Turning to the legislaion of 1846, he (Hr. Keogh) asked the attention of the Hon. Member for Ripon to the fact as regarded the statute of that Year, whether it was the intention of the Government of that day to keep in force the ancient laws referred to by the Noble Lord and the legal advisers of the Crown? Turning to that stztute, so cavalierly treated by the Solicitor-General—it was not the only Act he treated cavalierly, though it certainly was easy enough for him to do so in front of 250 Nlinist , rialists, and with the an- ewering jeers a 300 or 400 Members of the Opposi• tion—he (Mr. Keogh) called the attention of the Hon and Learned Gentleman to the mistakes , f his pro. decessors and colleagues in this matter. The G:h sec ti . 9n of the Act of 1846 stated that the consideration 0: all charitable duties in and concerning the usages and diacipline of the Roman Catholic Church should bo re ferred to a Committee of the Commissioners appointed under the Act. professing the Roman Catholic religion; that when, by reason of any division, a dispute should arise, this Committee should certify who, according to the usage and discipline of the Roman Catholic Church, should take the devise or bequest in question, and that the Commissioners, in which were included Protestants, as well as Catholics—the Protestant Archbishop of Ar- Magh and others—were bound by the Act of Parliament to acknowledge the usage and discipline of the Roman Catholic Church, as certified to them by the Roman Ca tholic bishops.—(Hear, hear.) The 15th section of the Act enabled persons to convey property f.ir the use and Maintenance of the archbishops, bishops, deans, &c., of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. He (Mr. K.), under these circumstances, asked the Solicitor-General how was it to be ascertained who was archbishop or bishop according to the usage of the Roman Catholic Church? Was it not by reference to the bull creating ' thern?—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. K.) cast aside the nonsense about the Synod of Thurles; also the letters attributed to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and he asked the Noble Lord to refer to the official demand ad dressed to the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland, by Lord Castlereagh, in the Government of Mr. Pitt, as to Whence they derived their t►tles, what was their income &e. It was dated August, 1799, and will be found in the second volume of "Lord Castlereagh's Memoirs," as addressed to Dr. Troy, " Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin," together with the an swers thereto, signed by the " Raman " Catho lic Metropolitans of Armagh, Dublin, Tuasn, and Cashel. With this fact before him, did the Noble Lord pretend to ignore the existence of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland? Did the Solicitor-General mean to lay that the Legislature of 1844, with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth at its head, i❑tended to leave room for the Government to come down in 1851 with a Bill such as that of the Noble Lord—" a thing of shreds and patches," borrowed from both sides of the House—to destroy the religious liberties of a third of the people of this country? The Master of the Rolls, in the earlier discussions on the Bill, said that things should be done in as quiet a manner as possible. Tle (Mr. Keogh) called the attention of the House to the insidiousness of the words. The Solicitor-General, however, when pressed by the Hon. Member for Dun dalk, said that the Bill did nothing, except declare the law as it stood. He (Mr. Keogh) asked the Noble Lord If there was a shadow of a doubt on the case, was he prepared to pass the clause? The House of Commons had been for the last thirty years trying to set right the legislation of centuries: was the Noble Lord prepared to paralyse those efforts by placing under the ban the re ligion of one-third of the people?—(Hear.) The asser tion of the Solicitor- General was hastily and indis ereetly made; in Ireland tue hierarchy had been always existent—there were no ♦icars apostolic. The clause Under notice, however, would render illegal the source and fountain whence that hierarchy derived its eccle siastical authority. Was it desirable to do this? Was th e Government prepared to adopt the clause of a poli tical opponent? He (Mr. Keogh) called on the Noble Lord in conclusion to xestrict the application of the measure; and he moved, therefore, with the view of pre serving the rights of the Roman Catholic Church in Ire land, that the word "England" should be inserted in the clause. Lord 3. RUSSELL—I had expected to hear from the Ron. and Learned Gentleman an argument to prove that the clause before the House is not founded on law. "—(blear, hear.) We have heard from Hon. and Learned Members on every side of the House that this clause is explicit—that it lays down the law of England as it stands—and that it cannot be contravened by any law. I have listened in vain for any proof that this is not the case in the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman has told the House for the third or fourth time that the Bill is inoperative; but as for argument to show it, he has not favoured us With any. What is the evil which is proposed to be amended? A rescript of the Pope, or a paper purport. ing to be a remript, has appeared, founding an arch bishopric to be called the Archbishopric of Westminster, and founding various bishoprics in subordination to it, such as the bishoprics of Birmingham, Soutnwark, Clif ton, and twelve other sees.—(Hear, hear.) It was affirmed in the preamble of the original Bill that the attempt to establish such sees and provinces was illegal and void ; and in conformity with that preamble this clause says, that " that re3cript therefore shall, and shall be deemed to be, unlawful and void." 040 would expect, under these circumstances, that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would show that the See of Rome had power and authority by law to establish archbishoprics and bishoprics in this country before he called on the House to reject this clause. Has th e Hon. and Learned Gentleman done so?—(Hear.) If be has not, then he has not made an argument against the clause.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentle- Dian has raised various arguments against the extension of.this clause to Ireland, but as to the chief affirmation !Dina it, he has shown no cause whatever for comply lag with his desire. I next come to the assertion of the grave discrepancy between the statements of the Hon. and Learned Member for Midhurst and my Hon. and Learned Friend the Solicitor-General. The Hon. and Learned Member for Midhurst is asked if the clause ap plied to England; and ho replies that it did, because it is aPetially calculated to apply to the rescript of the 29th of September, at which it was expressly aimed. The Right Hon. Member for the University of Oxford then laid if this was the effect of the clause it would get the Government into great contradiction with itself ; for that they were about to say it was unlawful for the Pope to establish a bishopric in England, while it was left open to him to create in Ireland any see he wished, and he referred to the new bishopric of Ross recently established in that country. Whereupon the Solicitor • General said, "It by no means followed, for that the clause did not apply specially to England alone, but Was a declaration of the law by Parliament, that if it was illegal to establish sees in England it was therefore illegal to establish them in Ireland, seeing that the law on the subject was the same in both countries since Poyning's Act, and that the courts of law would so in terpret it."—(Hear, hear.) I have, however, yet to learn that these answers are at variance.—(Hear, hear.) If they are not, then is there no discrepancy between the affirmations of the Hon. and Learned Member for Mid hunt and my Hon. Friend the Solicitor-General. But, said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, if this be the case, the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion is practically forbidden in Ireland. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, however, made no way in showing this to be the case, nor in proving that the law in Ireland gave the Pope more power to establish sees and provinces than it gives him in this country. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman began by contradicting the authority of Lalor's case as not good law in this. Mr. KEOGH explained. He did not say so. He said, if it was based on these grounds, that it would be within the law. Lord J. RUSSELL—It was no doubt part of the case; but could the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland be forbidden if the ease did not apply?—(Hear, hear.) The statute under which Lalor was convicted, however, was a statute passed when the Roman Catholic religion was the religion of the country—namely, the Act Richard II.; and therefore the argument of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman does not apply in the case. The authority in Lalor's case i 5, that he exer cised powers derived from Rome; that is what we com bat this day.—(Bear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman finds in the Bequests Act some authority which, according to his interpretation, gives powerr n to the Roman Catholic Church to o r ganize itself in I re l an d as it may choose. In all the arguments we have h a d on the subject, the Roman Catholic bisho ps in though they might not assume the titles, are admitted. to have exercised their functions within the ancient di e _ ceses, and they have not been interfered with se long as their acts were not in contravention of the law of the land. That was the state of things which it was wished to retain, and no reason presented itself why any inter ference should be made with the Roman Catholic bishops in the exercise of their functions. But the Bequests Act, instead of being, as the Honourable and Learned Gentleman said, a solemn and public recognition of the Roman Catholic prelates' powers an d authority, was as Act, as he bad before said, carefully, sedu lously, and, he would add, skilfully drawn up so as to avoid such an inference. The Act did not say " bishops exercising jurisdiction," or, " Roman Catholic prelates ruling over and governing dioceses ;" but " bishops offi ciating" not within any diocese, but " within any dis trict ;" so that whether archbishop, bishop, or vicar apostolic, the prelate would be recognised by law as a right rev. prelate " officiating in that district." It was further considered it might be a question with re spect to-Roman Catholic priests in any districts in which they might officiate as to the authority—whether from the bishop, or from Rome—by virtue of which they. exer cised their functions. That difficulty might have caused considerable embarrassment, for if a case came before the Court it was seen by the authors of the Bill that Roman Catholic priests to whom charitable bequests were made could not take the money bequeathed to them by a title not legal, or under a doubtful title. It we , ' however, provided that questions of such a nature, if they arose, should be referred to committee composed solely of Roman Catholic Commissioners, these Commissioners being required to decide the question of who was to re ceive the money according to the rules of their Church, and to report, not that a certain person was priest of a particular parish, or that a certain person Was the Bishop of Limerick or any other place, but to report who was to receive benefit according to the i n . WAWA of the donor, whether the Bight Rev. Dr. Ryan, or the Rev. W. O'Connell, or .any other person. This was what the Commissioners were only to report, end therefore no question as to the assumption of illegal titles could come before the public. Such was the course taken by the framers of the Bill, which was introduced for useful purposes, and which had been worked out so as to accomplish those useful purposes. Sc, then, with regard to the case of " Lelor," and also the Bequests Act, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had failed to make out that 'it came within the lawful authority of the see of Rome to erect bishoprics and to give jurisdiction over dioceses in this kingdom. The lion. and Learned Gentleman had attempted to prove even that the Pope had power to do this in Ireland. With respect to the practical effect of the Bill, he coneeived hardly any part of the Bill—though a Bill for the United Kingdom, and which extended throughout the United Kingdom—would have any effect in Ireland. With regard to the bishopric of Galway, it certainly would prevent any person from assuming the title of Bishop of Galway. If any person were ready to assume the title of Archbishop of Team, it would, no doubt, affect him, and would render the assumption of that title unlawful. With regard to all other matters in the Bill, it would leave things as nearly as possible in the same state as they wore before it passed. With regard to the first clause, it declared that to be law which no la eyer had denied was law—that which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself had not denied was law. The first clause only declared that to he law which in Ireland, as well as England, was law. With regard to the second clause, that prevented the assump tion of illegal titles by Roman Catholic bishops. If Roman Catholics bishops di3 aisume titles, it would, be those of existing bishoprics, such as Artnegh and Cork, not the title of new sees. The Bill was directed, as it ought to be directed, to a particular attempt against the Crown, the Parliarneet, and the nation; and the Bill did not do anything that was unn ecessar y t o effect that pur pose. On the other hand, if the Bill only made a de claration of the law in England it would do this—it would give rise to the belief that the Pope might create any number of new sees in Ireland, notwithstanding the prerogatives of the Crown, and the independence of the nation.—(Hear, hear.) Now that he held to be a great change of the constitution and of the law, in derogation of the prerogatives of the Crown and the independence of the nation.—(Hear, hear.) And he trusted the House would not give their sanction to any such pro ceeding.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord continued, with animation—" It may suit the purposes of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and others to make a great agita tion in Ireland, and to proclaim interdictions from Tuam that hereafter Roman Catholic bishops and priests would be driven from Ireland, and their chapels levelled with the ground—those statements are made to impose on very ignorant people, but every one knows in this House that after the Bill passes there will be perfect freedom of conscience for Roman Catholics, with the full and unfettered exercise of their religion.—(Hear.) Some Hon. Members will, doubtless, get up and say the Roman Catholics are the best judges of what is best for the interests of the Roman Catholic religion. Stop a little, I say to them. I am ready to say you shall have everything necessary for the organization of your Church and for the free exercise of your religion, provided you do not interfere with the rights and religion of others. —(Loud cheers.) So long as you confine yourselves to the appointing of two, four, six, or eight Roman Ca tholic bishops in England, that is a matter with which I have no concern. Whatever the number of bishops you may think necessary for the organization of your Church, I do not intend to interfere with that, but when you come here and declare you will rule England, her coun ties and places, because it is necessary for the interests of your religion, then I say that under the Act of 1791, by whicießoman Catholic priests were free to perform mass, you might as well sey'you cannot perform mass according to the Roman Catholic religion, unless per formed in Westminster Abbey; and to that my answer would be, you may perform your mass in any chapel you please, but into Westminster Abbey you have no right to come, and into Westminster Abbey you shan't come.—(Loud cheers.) So I say, organize your Church as you please, only allow us to preserve our independ ence as a nation, and not to be subject to tiny foreign power."—(Loud cheers.) Mr. ROCHE said the Noble Lord had mentioned no thing about the archbishopric of Westminster. He had heard accusations of all kinds against Irish Members during the debate, but the strangest accusation against them bad been made by the Noble Lord, who said the Irish Members had been irrelevant in their proceeaings, because they debated the question before the House. There had been no valid season assigned why. Ireland should not be included in the Bill. The only reason given by the Noble Lord was, if Ireland was not in eluded, the Pope at some future time might erect bi shoprics and appoint to new sees, therefore it was neces sary to guard the prerogative of the Crown from the anticipated invasion. It would be impossible to carry out the Bequests Act without going right in the teeth cf that clause, which extended the Act to Ireland. As to the charge of getting up bad agitation in Ireland, he would say, if anything did arise from that bail agitation, it would be attributable to the conduct of the Noble Lord himself, who refused to take Ireland out of the Bill. On the shoulders of the Noble Lord, and not at the door of the Irish Members, let the consequences be laid. The Irish Roman Catholic Members objected to this legislation for Eng land, because it infringed the rights and liberties of Eng lish Roman Catholics. Considering the little that had been done for the cure of the thy sical sufferings of Ireland by the present Government since they had come into power, he considered it came with a bad grace from the Noble Lord to refuse to Wee Ireland cut of the Bill. Ireland wanted peace and tranquillity. This Bill was uncalled for, and would put au end to those peaceful and fraternal feelings which were beginning to exhibit themselves in Ireland between Protestants and Roman Catholics. The Bill would also operate unjustly on that honest and hard-working class the landlords of Ire land. It would revive religious disputes—religious fc el ine,s, symptoms of which were to be seen in Ulster, where the bad example of the Noble Lord had been fol oe ed. He warned these persons that the titre would come when they would be not only abandoned by the Noble Lord, but by the Protestant people of England, and left stranded and helpless amidst a body of their ex asperated Irish Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen. The Committee then divided, when there appeared— For the amendment ••• ~. 39 Against it ... 84 Majority against the amendment —45 Mr. KEOGH then moved " Provided that nothing in the clause shall be construed to interfere with the eccle siastical and spiritual functions of the Roman Catholic archbishops and bishops in _lreland." The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, the objection to the proviso was this --that the clause on which the pro viso was to be grafted did not affect the position of the archbishops and bishops in Ireland, unless their juris diction and authority were exercised under illegally as sumed titles. If they did so exercise their power and authority, it was impossible to say they did so legally by that Bill (as we understood). Mr. KEOGH said the sincerity of her Majesty Go vernment could only be tested by such amendments as these, and it was only by bringing such amendments for ward that they had the slightest chance of coming to the truth. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said it was unnecessary to include such a proviso in the Bill, for it would not interfere with the spiritual and ecclesiastical functions of the Roman Catholic prelates unless exercised under illegal titles. The sophism in that reply was evi dent. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman well knew there could neither be bishops or archbishops without rescripts or letters apostolic. It was intended by the Bill to proscribe rescripts or letters apostolic, and all he now wanted to avoid was—that the Bill should interfere with those functions which they said they did not wish to interfere with. Ile would give them the whole clause if they liked, but let the Noble Lord say in plain lan guage—let him put in a provision embodying his ides, he did not care about the language —which would prevent that interference which ho deprecated. The Noble Lord had said so much about Ireland recently that he would remind the Noble Lord of a time when he was more alive to religious liberty in Ireland, and when his opi nions were very different on the subject of the two esta blishments to those which he now maintained. He wanted to know why the Noble Lord was so jealous about interfering with the Episcopal Church Of Scotland, which did not number so many as 200,000 persons, while the Irish Roman Catholics were 6,000,000? He wanted to know why the third clause should especially state it was not to extend to the assumption of titles by the Episcopal Church of Scotland? Why should not the same exemption be accorded to the Roman Catholics of Ireland that had been granted to the Episcopalians of Scotland? It' the Noble Lord rejected the present pro position, he should use all the forms of language to re new it, a nd to test the declaration of the Noblelord in favour of religious liberty. Mr. A. B. HOPE had always voted with the small minority on this question, but could not support the pre sent proposition of the lion. Member for Athlone, be cause he considered it to be antagonistic to the free ad ministration of religious liberty. Besides, he did not see why such an amendment should be limited to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. Mr. KEOGH had no wish to separate, the case of the Roman Cath o li cs o f I re l an d f rom th a t of the rest of the community, and he should therefore r.o far alter his amendment as to include the United Kingdom. Mr. ANSTEY was surprised there should be any op meat, would nut apply on to the amendment, for if the preamble were not op position though greatly altered, the clause, with or without the amend lead, before the to Ireland. Tee amendment, not necessary , might make the clause less objec tionable to people . of Ireland, and above all it might regretted that exemptingthea Irelandt altogether from the Bill. He a clause li Ilbecame•law, to the introduction of ques tion had not been 4 iation and dimssion on this directedques solely to the exclusion of Ire land from the measur e Member for Carlow had alluded Friday night the R on. O ti seaking on this subject on to what he was pleased to his (Mr. Anstey's) teme rity in the allegations he had izif !tu b er laid such stress le on t hi s su bj ect, lie vvab names urY. t o The more was glad to find that th e on the authority of Lo r d S hre English Roman Catholics had signed their o n e declaration on this matter, and o than one the sentiments they bad expressed were Peca""B all contradictory and iecensistent wi t h each were nearly for one, therefore, paid not the slightest deference ne the declaration referred to by the nm. Itin ei b 'e , nce to begged the attention of the Lion. Gentleman to the . Ile very important declaration by the clergy of Beverley ell this subject, every paragraph of which had been contradicted by all the persons except one who had signed it. i n that declaration 'the clergy of Beverley'rrot only pro tested against the rescript, but they addressed Dr. Wiseman, and asked for the establishment of such an ecclesiastical government as might be in ac cordance with the free constitution and equitable laws of this country—they deprecated the intro duction of any new foreign system of ecclesiastical law as hostile to the feelings of the people by whom they wero surrounded, and they contended that the attempted reatontion Pt the hierarchy, instead of o9nduoiog to the advantage of the Catholic religion, would be the cause of its dettriorctim in England. That address was pre - vented to Dr. Wiseman, 'and the result was, that in two or three days afterwards every one of the subscribers raceived a circular from the Vicar• General of York, along with the draft of an address which they were re • quested to sign, if approved of, and to return it by post. He believed that only two of the clergy who had,sigaed - the former address had refused 'to si g n the address sent to them by the Vicar-General, which contained a distinct retractation of every sentiment expressed in the first address, and an expression of gratitude to Dr. Wiseman for having restored . the hierarchy.—(Hear.) He was Wormed that the two clergymen who had so refused to stultify themselves had been, he would not say suspended, from their incumbencies, but had been displaced.— (Hear.) The Hon. Member for Tipperary had asked him what proof he could produce of the assertion which he had made regarding the - petition to the Pope. The House was no doubt aware that in 1837 the late Pope put forth a document with regard to a hierarchy, and proposed to refer to the clergy themselves the duty of settling their own form of government. Every thing was to be done here. and nothieg at Rome. The clergy as well as the laity accepted the proposal with alacrity. but it was not agreed to at Rome, Dr. Wiseman, who was then agent there, having objected to the sehetne as trenching too much on episcopal autho rity. Petitions were therefore sent to the Pope from certain Roman Catholies heie offering to stand by him against the bishops,- and to-one of these petitions the Hon. Member for Tipperary had put his name.—(Hear,, hear.) In that petition the Hon. Member, among others, told the Pope that so far from this country being ripe for a nierai chy, it was in all probability doomed to re main for generations a missionary country, and he called on the Pope to protect the priests as well as the laity in this country against the attempts that were contem plated by certain parties at Rome. That was the an swer he had to make to the Hon. Member for Tipperary. The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY wished to ask the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen whether he ad dressed the House as a Catholic or not?--_-_(oh, oh!) Mr. ANSTEY rose amid cries of "Don't answer." He said as a question •had' been put to him, he should like, if in order, to answer it. He should be exceedingly sorry to retaliate on the Noble Lord, bat could not re frain from expressing his astonishment that any Member should commit the unpardonable insolence of patting such a question to another Member touching his religion. —(Cheers.) If permitted to answer the Noble Lord, he might say he was to the full us good a Catholic as the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.) The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said that was all he wanted. The question, he thought, was a fair one.—(Loud cries of No, no.") When the Hon. and Learned Gentleman got up and expressed sentiments totally at variance with the feelings of the great body of the Catholics of this country, he thought he had a right to ask the Hon, and Learned Gentleman if he spoke as a Catholic or not.—(Expressions of dissent.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman being a Catholic was no doubt aware how Catholics changed their minds, for he recol lected the Hon. and Learned Gentleman once making a speech of five hours against the Noble Lord the Secre tary for Foreign Affairs, and yet, when the Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield brought forward, last year, his motion for a vote of confidence in that Noble Lord, the Hon. and Learned Member for Youghal sup ported it. With respect to the signatures to the paper alluded to by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman he knew nothing, but he presumed that, after some consideration, those who had signed it thought better of the matter.— (Laughter.) However that might be, he did not deny that among English Catholics—as among other reli gious bodies—there might be a few discontented mem bers opposed to the discipline which the head of the Church thought it his duty to impose. Mr. NAPIER did not think there was any difference between the law of England and the law of Ireland on this question. Lalor was doubly convicted—first on the Act of Elizabeth, and again on the Act of Richard 11., which still remained the law of the land. Allusion had been made to the Charitable Bequests Act, but he had never known any of the diocesan or paro chial documents brought into a court of law. He observed with regret the attempt made to mislead the people of Ireland as to the nature of this measure, which was purely defensive in its character, and aimed not against the Roman Catholic religion in this country, but against ultrarnontaniem.—(Hear, hear.) It had been admitted by the ultramontane press that the appoint ment of Dr. Cullen was a first attempt on the part of the Pope to supersede the usual mode of nominating bishops ie Ireland. In his opinion they had nothing to do with matters of discipline, but only with overt acts, and to say whether or not they were in accordance with the laws of the land. If the Pope's rescript was not a lawful document, and if certain restrictions in conse quence of it were to be - imposed on Roman Catholics, who was to blame?—(Hear, ' hear.) He was clearly of opinion that it was an unlawful document. Mr. ANSTEY said a difference existed in the law of Ireland and England on this subject. The Emancipation Act tolerated a hierarchy in Ireland, but only permitted the system of vicars apostolic in England. Mr. M. GIBSON understood the Hon. and Learned Member for Athlone to consent to extend his amend ment to the United Kingdom. When they considered the monstrous injustice of forcing the - Irish people t 6 pay for a Church they did not acknowledge, and, in the next. lace of telling them that they should not ha ve th e Church of their own choosing, he thought there were strong reasons why -Ireland should be included in the amendment. They had imposed Protestant bishops upon Ireland, and yet they would not allow the Roman Ca tholics in Ireland to have bishops of their own.—(Hear, hear.) There was, in fact, something so unjust in the whole of this proceeding that he could hardly condescend to enter into the details. Now declaring that bulls ap pointing bishops were void, and those bishops ordaining priests, ho wished to know did they mean to declare that such ordination was unlawful? They had, to use the words of Jeremy Taylor," suffered disobedience to grow into custom;" end yet they were now reviving an old law for the purpose of persecution. And, doing this, they did not provide against common informers proceed ing against Roman Catholic bishops. They ought to provide that no proceeding by indictment could be in stituted, without the consent of the Crown. They ought to do this, for there could be no doubt that the animus of the whole proceeding was the old " No Popery" cry, for there was a desire in this country to check by penal legislation the progress of the Roman Catholic religion.—(lleer, hear.) Sir H. W. BARRON obeerved that they had allowed the law for the last hundred years to be violated; and now there was a revival of the old law. They made of that old a new law, for the purposes of persecution; and the men who did this were playing a double game with a double face. He believed the measure was introduced by a party in that House for the purpose of raising a popular cry in its favour. It was to create discord in that House amongst those who would be otherwise united on general. subjects. Was there any man in or out of that House who had the audacity to say that the Queen's prerogative was invaded by the appointment of Roman Catholic bishops? The Queen had no preroga tive for appointing Roman Catholic bishops. The Queen, never had appointed Roman Catholic bishops. It had been asserted that the act of the Pope was an insult to this country; but in what sense, he asked, could it be so? How were they insulted? How were they invaded? What civil or religious rights had been taken from them? Had the Roman Catholic bishops taken posses sion of any of the glebes of the Established Church? He contended that the Roman Catholics had the right, as free born men in a free country, to exercise their reli gion according to its written law; and if Government desired -to abolish that religion, let them do it openly and not underhandedly. Ile should give the clause his most decided opposition. Captain TAYLOR said that not having had the op portunity of addressing the House upon the second reading of the Bill, he was desirous of stating that he was anxious the House should eeoord its strong disap• probation of what had been termed the Papal aggres lsst ro o ai f st l it a idm st ay immediately e t dt u iha m ete n iley htet upone, r aggres sion, and repe l i t i n the most vigorous manner. But ho must say he did not t hi n k the Bill did that. At the c i in of t common lit ne meeting eoebtl with ion o ofr di manyin)Parliament or it o ah t mo h e eb r no s was fe h some measure would be proposed in accordance with a ; but ho confes se d th at h e was gr i evously die aTt appointed l aoe n e , tt Assumptionet e t r vihe n he r ß oa il, d i t o h nd the dseatwailhsoowf weaktEcclesiasticalheandineff tive its clauses vvere.—(llear, hear.) For his part, he preferred the passing of a resolution declaratory of the illegality of the Measures taken by the Papacy, and the appointment of a Committee to examine into the ex isting state of the law, and report as to the mode in which the evil complained of might best be met. Mr. REYNOLDS said that that " defender of the faith," the . Hon. M em b e r f ar Marylebone (Sir B. Hall), had on Friday night proposed that there should be morning sittings until this Bill had passed tkrough the. House. That proposition was an insult to the Irish Members, and the small minority of English Members who bad voted with them, and whose names should be written, to their eternal honour, in letters of gold.— (Oh, oh, and laughter.) They might utter their " Ohs I" and their ironical cheers if they pleased ; but ho repeated that their names should be engralen upon the h ear t s o f the Irish people.—(Renewed la.o hter.) He should not To h ih oh.) He of the adoption put the converse, and tell the majority h ow t h e i r names , would in been l driven Ireland.—(Oh s e lan d v e . He believed majority course on which they had entered. Th ey were, in fact, talking to their constituents, and Voting i n or d er that the tbe received ad division lists might be read at the hustings; because they knew they had evoked a spirit of bigotry and into leranee that might cost them their seats in the event of a dissolution of Parliament.—(Oh, oh.) He spoke it advisedly. He knew more Hon. Members than he would venture to name, who had told him that they wished the Bill was at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean; but they had been coerced to vote for it by a spirit of intolerance which it was impossible for them to resist.—(oh, oh.) The Hon. Member for Marylebone had stated that the opponents to this Bill were placing important business in, abeyance. He (Mr. Reynolds) would be glad to know what important business was to be found upon the paper? Had the Government put upon it any proposal to ex tend the Parliamentary franchise? No; they had post poned it until next session, in the hope that they would then be able to mike a Cebdienet question of it.— (Leughter.) Had they proposed any measure to re lieve the working men of England and Scotland from ititolerable pressure of indirect taxation.—(oh and cries of " Question, q ) uestion." They had re . , t. I T: d they put upon th e p a p e t nay notice of n inotio'h to relieve the hard-working professional man from the grievous burden of the income-tax? No •, they had. not.—(Re noised c • f cries o Oh, oh," and " Question.') What mea sure of importancehad the Government upon thti paper? --(Question,Would question.) Now, h e h one d the.. Committee permit the business before them to be done in a proper manner—(Lond cries - of " Question" from Mr. Wawn.) H e (u r. R for South Shields wQueynolds) hoped th e H on . M em b er ld conduct himself in a sober man "' (Alm") Ile Muted that be would not be compelled to repeat that observation. On Saturday night lat Mr. WA N—No, no; not Saturday.—(Laughter.) Mr. REYNOLDS (turning round and looking signi ficantly at Mr. Wawa, who sat upon one of the extreme benches at the extreme end of the opposition side of the House) said that the Hon. Gentleman had again thought proper to interrupt him. Mr. WAWN—Mr. Chairman, I rise to order. I want, 'to know whether the Hon. Member for Dublin is to speak truth or falsehood in this House.—(Order.) The CHAIRMAN—The Hon. Member for South Shields has made use of words which are clearly disorderly. Mr. WAWN—I beg pardon, Sir, if I have said any thing disorderly; but I wish to ask you or any other Member of this House what you or he was doing on Saturday night?—(Roars of laughter.) Mr. REYNOLDS—It had been often said that a child might ask a question which it would puzzle a philosopher to answer.—(hear, hear.) Ha dared say that it would be almost impossible to ask him (the Chairman) a question that would puzzle him more to answer than that—what they were all doing on last Saturday night ?—(Laughter.) Passing, however, from that subject, he would refer to the motions of the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncotnbe) and the Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon (Sir F. The siger), in discussing which but a very small portion of the night was occupied. He thought it, therefore, un reasonable to censure the Irish Members for occupying the time of the House. But he intended not to make an apology for himself or his Hon. Friends; for let it be understood that this was a life and death question with them. There was involved in this question one whether they were to have free altars or not? He would not say " happy homes," for by their ill-direatedlegislation they had put an end to happy lionses in Ireland.—(" Hear," from the Irish Members.) The Noble Lord at the head of the Government said that this Bill would bo as mild a measure in Ireland as could be proposed. How ' then, would the Noble Lord b e able to satisfy the Members who were supporting him from the Opposition benches? If this measure were such a one as the Noble Lord described it, it was then evident that he was passing bad coin upon the sound Protestant Members of that House, and he (Mr. Reynolds) doubted not but that they would vote against him if they believed his statement in this respect to be quite true. He wished to put a question to the Noble Lord who, he supposed, was somewhat tired of answer ing questions asked him by the opponents of his Bill. He (Mr. Reynolds) dared say that the Noble Lord was disposed to call them animated notes of interrogation.— (Laughter.) His question to the Noble Lord was—Did he intend this Bill, in all its integrity, to apply to Ire land? The Solicitor-General said .4 No, not in terms;" but by the construction of an Irish judge it would ex tend to Ireland. But the Hon. Member for Midhurst, in saying that it would not extend to Ireland, gave very different reasons for such an opinion. Bat even if it be only confined to England, he would tell them on the part of Ireland that they were prepared to stand by the Eng lish Catholics to the very end of the struggle. This was more their battle than that of the Irish people. The Irish Catholics were strong, but the English were weak; and the Irish Catholic representatives would fight the cause for them with as much zeal and perseverance as their own. He intended not to use menacing language towards the authors of this Bill, but if they passed an Act that would impose pains and penalties upon the Catho lic hierarchy of Ireland it would be a dead letter, for no Government would have the power to carry it into effsct. How did the Noble Lord reconcile his present insulting, bigotted, and he would almost call it atrocious legislation with his former political acts regarding Ire land ?—(Hear, hear.) In a speech delivered by the Noble Lord in 1835, in the discussion upon the appro priation clause debate, the Noble Lord spoke ably and argumentatively, as he always did except on the Papal Aggression Bill--(Laughter)—for upon that he breaks down—he was doing a job that neither God nor nature intended for him. The work was too heavy for him, and he was unable to get through it himself, and indeed he had not obtained much assistance from his colleagues. —(Hear, hear.) But to refer to his speech in 1835, when he was speaking of the Protestant Church in Ire land with all its temporal abominations, the Noble Lord then said that the entire number of Protestants in Ire land could hardly be stated higher than 730,000, to sup port the, clergy of whom the enormous sum of 800,0001. a year was exacted from the population, of which the remainder were Roman Catholics. The Noble Lord then referred to a number of dioceses for the pur pose of showing the extraordinary disproportion that existed between the Catholic and Protestant population of Ireland. Mr. WAWN—What year was that? Mr. REYNOLDS continued—The Noble Lord then ended hie speech with this resolution:—" That thia House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House for the purpose of considering the temporalities of the Church of Ireland." The Noble Lord hating then car ried his motion the Ministry of the day were dislodged, and the appropriation clause was from that day placed in the tomb of all the Capulets.—(Laughter and cheers.) The Protestant Church of Ireland was in all its tem poral integrity, although the Noble Lord had been Prime Minister of the country for many years.—(Hear, hear.) Up to this hour the Noble Lord had never even whis pered a word about the Irish Protestant Church, except for the purpose of strengthening it, nor about the tempo ralities of that Church but to increase them. The pre sent measure, which would subject an Irish Catholic bishop to a penalty of 1001., or in default of payment to be conveyed to a felons' gaol, was the Noble Lord's ap propriation clause for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Why, it was enough to make the blood boil in the veins of an Irish Catholic with indignation. He appealed to the English Members of that House to say how they would like to be treated as the Irish Roman Catholics ware treated. In 1841 Ireland contained a population of 8,200,000. Famine had done its work since. But there was an artificial famine and a Government famine abroad. His country people were dying in the workhouses, which were properly called slaughter-houses, dying on an average at the rate of 2,000 a week, for want of the common necessaries of life. And the remedy for ail their wants was this in sulting and atrocious Bill. Why was the Protestant Church the Established Church of England? Why was the Presbyterian Church the Established Church of Scotland? Why, because the majority of the people in either country belonged to the Protestant and Presby terian Churches. But why was the Protestant Church the Established Church of Ireland? For reasons diame trically opposite.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") There were some Eoglish Members of Parliament who were no doubt remarkable for the bump of self-esteem, which was so large that it neutralised every other bump. Such Members as these had told the Catholic Members of that House that if they occupied any more of their time they would have day sittings—(Hear, hear.) Well, he (Mr. Reynolds) would say, let them commence their day sittings, and then they would see which would be tired first,—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord was a kind of lay Pope over the Established Church. But to pass on to the Hon. and Learned Member for Yougbal (Mr. Anstey), who had borne false witness against the creed he professed—(" Question," from Mr. Wawn.) Mr. LAWLESS here rose te girder. He said it Was quite true that they were a small pars - r dete oppose a Bill which they considered of a M osti rmine ust and j d to i n persecuting character; but he appealed to that •:c'llse whether the interruptions which were so frequent;; offered to the Hon. Member for Dublin by the Hon. Member for South Shields were not disorderly ? Mr. WAWN said he had not interrupted the speaker when he was speaking to the question. But when he diverged to other topics he claimed it to be his privilege to call out " Question," and to call him t o or d er . - Mr. REYNOLDS said it was rather too bad, when he was endeavouring to plead the cause of his creed and his country, that he was to be exposed to these interruptions. The only excuse he could make for the Hon. Gentleman was that he was not perfectly conscious of what he was doing.—(Order, order.) - Mr. WAWN again rose to order. He wanted to know if, as an independent Member of that House, he felt himself oalled upon to discharge a duty expected from him by his constituents, it was right for the Hon. Member for Dublin to hold out language calculated to intimidate him in the discharge of his duty? Mr. REYNOLDS said that when he was last inter rupted he was referring to, the Hon. and Learned Mem ber for Youghal. 'He first thought that he ought not to refer to that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, recollecting that he was a lawyer, and knowing that all lawyers had a laudable anxiety to promote their own interest wher evera they went.—(Hear, and lau g hter.) But the Hon. and Learned Member bore false witness to his creed. He (Mr. Reynolds) would not allow him or any one else to do so with perfect impunity. But the Hon. and Learned Member was cheered when he was making those statements. No one called him to order when he was calumniating his creed, The Hon. and Learned Gentleman reminded hint, on those occasions when he (Mr. Reynolds) had the pain to hear him speaking on this Bill,' of a passage in the poetry of that bard with whose name Ireland was closely identified. In spe a ki ng of her representatives, who , a s In this case, were n ot al . . ways her sons, he might say— " Upraised are her sons till they've learned to betray Undistinguished they live if they shame not their sires. The torch that would light them to dignity's way Must be caught from the pile where their country expires." He thanked God he (Mr. Anstey) was not an Irishman, and he was reminded by an Hon. Gentleman to thank God that he was not an Englishman. He might call him "the disowned"—but he deeply regretted he was an Irish representative, representing a Roman Catholic community. The gratitude which he exhibited towards them in that House was to record his vote when he could against their religious liberty; to calumniate them, and libel them in the senate of the nation. He might be told the Bill would pass, and that it was folly to oppose it. He hoped no Irish representative would enunciate such sentiueents in that House. It wa s n ow nearly four months s!snce the Bill had been la id before the House, and thrl long, !end it was not clear to him that the y would ever bad not yet passed one clause of five lines pass . .tt. The men who were proposing it knew it could nit.work; that their declarations and the clause were in eAnpatible; that religious liberty could not exist in -- 'z•pglere or Ireland if the clause passed; therefore be ben e that they themselves mu st back out of it . But it bad been said that either that Bill or a worse one would 'he passed. He told the House that the same power which strangled the present Bill would strangle 2s- worse one. At all events the opponents of the n teasure had elicited a discussion Which had put the question in its true light. They had dispelled the :loud of error which pervaded the country on the sub j ect; and now those who had been most anxious 'or the Bill were beginning to see that the sooner they $ •ot rid , of it ' the better. They saw that it was a Bill of g sins dud penalties, their eyes had been opened to, the iggle, and they could not stand it any longer.:. He n , peated, they were not wasting the public time, buten de avouring to guard their country and their religion a" Ohs baftigti9A o thi* Pell4 .ty„„ 4 - The Marquis of GRANBY said that the Hon. Gen tleman who had just sat down declared that the Pope and the Roman Catholics did not seek to encroach upon the Church of England. Nothing could be further from his (the Marquis of Granby's) wish or intention than to interfere with the exercise of their religion by the Roman Catholic or any other sect. But he would read a passage from the rescript to show what the intentions of the Pope were :—" And we decree that these our let tets apostolioal shall never at any time be objected against or impugned, on pretence either of omission or of addi tion, or defect either of our intention, or any other what soever; but shall always be valid and in force, and shall take effect in all particulars, and be inviolably observed, ail general or special enactments notwithstanding, whether apostolic, or issued in synodal, provincial, and universal councils; notwithstanding, also, all rights and privileges of the ancient sees of England, and of the missions, and of the apostolic vicariates subsequently there established, and of all churches whatsoever, and pious places, whether established by oath or by apostolic confirmation, or by any other security whatsoever; not withstanding, lastly, all other things to the contrary whatsoever." He asked Hon. Gentlemen what was the meaning of those words if they were not directed against the Established Church of this country? Mr. MOORE wished to call the attention of the Hon. and Learned Member for Youghal (Mr. Anitey) to a passage from a book purporting to have been written by him. That Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speeches consisted of a series of virulent attacks upon what he considered the ultramontane spirit of the Roman Ca tholics in this country and of the Court of Rome. In the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's book, which was dedi cated to Charles, Bishop of Pella, and vicar apostolic of the western district, ho found a passage in which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman spoke of ridiculous threats having been lately made by a small Parliamentary fac tion, not without some support from Roman Catholics, to revive the stupid and unmeaning sayings of other days against sincere Catholics, whom they termed ultramon tane Catholics, but whom his Lordship and his brethren in the episcopate would estimate at their true and proper value. Mr. ANSTEY said that the book from which the Hon. Gentleman had just quoted contained the enuncia tion of the grounds upon which, from the first, he and those who acted with him had opposed themselves to the attempt to set up in this country a little Popedom. He had never attacked the Papal rescript on the ground of its being an ultramontane document. All the mischief that flowed from the interference with the rights of the laity, came not from the Pope but from those councillors about him, who endeavoured to set up a bastard episco pacy in this country. Under this rescript there was no protection fin. the laity or inferior clergy, who were placed at the disposal of Cardinal Wiseman and their bishops, under whose tyranny they bad suffered so much. Mr. MOORE said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman made his conduct perfectly clear by his explanation. With respect to the Bill they had been proceeding hitherto, not without discussion certainly, but without deliberation; they had not been a deliberative assembly in any sense, as far as respected the Bill; they were speaking as from a hustings with reference to their own election.—(Oh, oh, and uproar.) He moved that the Chairman report progress. Lord J. RUSSELL must say the House had listened with remarkable attention. Had the discussion been confined to the merits of the amendment—to the general merits of the clause, or to the general merits even of the Bill, nothing could be more remarkable than the patience exhibited by the House; but, considering that Hon. Gentlemen talked upon various other ques tions besides that they were discussiog, the patience of the House had been extraordinary. He could not re gard the motion of the Hon. Gentleman as reasonable, and he should not therefore agree to the motion. Mr. M. GIBSON thought he had a right to complain, as the question he had asked had not been answered from the Treasury bench. He had asked it solely for the purpose of information. He understood it had been stated by the law officers of the Crown that the par ticular bull or brief mentioned in the clause was un lawful, because all bulls were unlawful. His question then was this:—They admitted that all bulls were unlawful, and inasmuch as a bishop ordained a priest, because he was a bishop, without reference to his title, whether territorial or otherwise, but by virtue of the bull constituting him a bishop, he wanted to know — was the ordination a misdemeanor, because it had taken place in virtue of an unlawful instrument;—and could any person take proceedings by indictment for that mis demeanour against the bishop who ordained the priest in virtue of his being a bishop? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the question was a somewhat complicated one. It proceeded on the as sumption that all bulls were unlawful, and it might be that they were so under the Act of Elizabeth. But the Bill before the House did not declare all bulls illegal and void; it was confined to bulls and rescripts creating dio ceses with territurial titles. It was not at all necessary for the purposes of this Bill to consider whether bulls and rescripts generally were illegal or not; or whether the use of them under the Act of Elizabeth amounted to a misdemeanour or.not. They were dealing with that particular Bill, which did not refer to bulls generally. The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said that the clause declared all authority conferred under a brief was illegal; consequently, any act of a bishop appointed under a brief constituted a misdemeanour, and therefore the putting of the clause in force was incompatible with their declaration of not wishing to interfere with the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion. The CHAIRMAN inquired if the lion. Member (Mr. Moore) meant to withdraw his amendment? Mr. MOORE said he did not intend to withdraw it. He merely wished, in deference to public opinion, which he believed by no means approved of the reckless and unscrupulous manner in which this Bill had been carried througn the House, to read two or three lines in the leading article of the Times of that morning, in which he found these words:—" lc has become more and more manifest that the lawyers do not understand the law, and that there is some danger, amid blunders concessions, and all sorts of crooked and tortuous policy, that the House may succeed in creating a monster whose future action shall be something quite different from what was foreseen, intended, or desired." " The point would have been fairly raised had the proposition to take the preamble first been acceded to, and as till it be settled no legislation can be safe, we sincerely trust that it will be attended to before the first clause be passed into a law. Till something can be done towards arriving at an accurate knowledge of the present state of the law, it is in vain to hope for satisfac tory legislation. The Bill was read a second time without an agreement in principle, it is now passing through Committee without either agreement or knowledge of the law, and the success or failure of its provisions seems entrusted, in the abeyance of diligence and default of acumen, to blind chance and fortuitous combinations." That he believed to be a true represen tation of public opinion, condemning tue conduct of that House in pressing clause after clause, and superseding amendment after amendment. — (Elear.) The Committee divided, when there appeared— For the proviso ... ... 59 Against it ... ... 344 Majority... --285 Mre J. O'CONNELL said if the Ministry were sin cere in their professions of not wishing to interfere with the purely spiritual acts of the Roman Catholic bishops, let them introduce some form of words that would dis tinctly declare such an intention. Sir G. GREY said there could be no interference with spiritual functions by the Bill. It would be incon refore, to introduce any such 'movie() in the purely sistent, tth. measure. then put that the clause stand part The question wa; of the Bill. SADLEIR rose to a.. Tove a proviso to the end of M:. r. at of the legal effect of bad :ltogether avoided by the Hon. and the Clause. He was still ignore._ : the Bill. The Noble Lord touching the legal questions raised Learned Member for Athlone. The Noble . Ireland Lord knew well Vint, it was impossible for the Catholics of to have a. Church without a hierarchy; and there et: lld that were afulor some of be no hierarchy without a bull or bulls from the Pope. withT h e many Attorney-General • na wlaory pnienelh'r-sGwoneernseeirn thalsae those w e re u s apprehensionsf id most w?— that certain bulls were un lawful; such there should be. He (Mr. Sadleir) participated disastrous consequences in Ireland if the Bill was passed. It was all , very well to say that it was declaratory of the law; but the Attorney-General should state explicitly which bulls were not illegal. There had been much quibbling that evening about the Charitable Bequests Bill; and to test the sincerity of the Government in re spect of the. position of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland,--especially of the Roman Catholic clergy of the second order—he proposed a proviso to the effect that nothing in -the Act should be construed to affect any archbishop or bishop of the Roman Catholic Church officiating and exercising the powers and authorities of such offices, in the same manner and under the same condition's in regard to discipline, as before the 29th September, 1850. Lord J. RUSSELL could not see any , advantage in entering again into the argument. It had been already replied to by his Right Hon. Friend, and no more could be said about it. Mr. OSWALD said it was important to know what the law was in Scotland previous to the 29th of \Septems a - ber, 1850, before the clause was adopted. There calledw statute knOwn in Scotland, as of t he y ear 1567, the Act Abolishing Popery. — ( Lau g hter.) He would read the Act.—(Laughter.) It e nacted that no subject of the King _should entertain connexion with ome, under pain of. banishment, confiscation, or death. R The Sm., should purchasers of rights, finders of finance, suffer the same; and no bishop should thereafter derive title or authority from Rome, or if he did , th at it should be illegal and invalid. If th at' was the law of S 700cotlhand, was there any use in passing this. Bill? In 1 tere was an Act passed ratifying all the statcute4s4, against Po pe ed ry ; and the Act 33 d G eor g e 111., ratified fuh it did not specifically refer t o the statute of 1567. n der those c i rcum st an ces it was very material that the Com mittee should:know w hat had hitherto been the law in the penalties impose d b y the Act of 1700, though Ud Scotland upon that subject, and how far the position of Roman Catholics would be affected by that measure. The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said he under. stood4hat the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department had stated tlnat that clause would not affect, sp i r i tua l a uthority or jurist-Act (e Earl of Arundel and Surrey) very much doubted the accu ney of that view - of the case, and he wished to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman still adhered to it? very documents to Mr. TRELAWNY said he wished to ask the Hon. and ,L ea rned Gentleman the Attorney-General whether un d e r ;bat clause a disaffected .clergyman of the Roman CatholkoChurch might not proceed against his bishop s ci a ir id ot t e ht:t tu h e e for wm heTi a schnh u te:Aser , d Tco e QT r o wu oe d e l a a ß n it u s: r oe , yr b :..t y Gui producing n: tsii ordination? En rmeasly theAxeLly. had al readyinati.ered that question. He had, then, only to repeat that, under the first clause of the Bill, no suisden of any act done under the assumption of a territorial title, and would inflict no penalties whatever. The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said he be lieved that several high legal authorities differed from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman upon that point. Mr. BLE WITT wished to know how the Attorney- General would find the brief or rescript against which he would proceed under that clause? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he had already answered that question; and he should for the future decline to answer any question a second time, unless it were put to him professionally.—(Bear, hear, and a laugh.) No proceeding could be founded by the Attor• ney•General upon that first clause. The whole of his functions with regard to that Bill would be founded on the second clause. The Committee then divided, a►nd the numbers were— For Mr. Sadleir's proviso 57 Against it ... _ 278 Majority against the proviso... Mr. KEOGH said, as the Attorney-General bed stated no indictment would lie under this clause, t e would move thilt no criminal proceedings be taken, cr indictinent preferred. under or in virtue of this clause. The CHAIRMAN asked if the Hoe. and Learned Member intended to move the proviso now ? Mr. KEOGH said he would give notice of the proviso. The CHAIRMAN said it was not competent for the Hon. and Learned Member to do so. Mr. KEOGH would then propose the proviso at once. Mr. REYNOLDS moved that the Chairman report pryress. - The question being put. Lord J. RUSSELL said he would not divide on the question. It was now quite clear that Hon. Members had been making the same motion over and over again, that they had pine into the lobby with small minori ties, and that they had afterwards math) the same mo tion in other words and in other shapes, which had been previously rejected. It was sufficiently obvious that was a course against all notions of proceeding in Committee; ho should, therefore, agree to postpone further proceed ings that night, to give Hon. Members time to reflect on their conduct, which he did not think they would be in clined to repeat again, when they saw that public opinion must condemn them.--(Cheers.) Mr. REYNOLDS rose, but was met at every word by a volley of " Oh's," which at last silenced the Hon. Member. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and asked leave to sitagain,we understood, on Thursday. ST. Al BAN'S BRIBERY COMMISSION. On the motion for going into Committee, Mr. BANKES objected at that late hour to go on with the measure, and would move that the House do ad journ. Mr. J. ELLICE, jun., had said the clause he wished to add was a mere matter of form, but necessary to autho rise certain expenses that must be incurred. Mr. BANKES must persist in his motion, as by his mode he proposed to spare public money. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said some expense must be incurred let the inquiry be con ducted in any way whatever. The House divided, when there appeared— For the amendment ... Against it ... 19 ... 59 Majority against the:adjournment... —4O The House then went into Committee. The preamble was understood to have been proposed. On the proposition of some of the clauses, Colonel SIBTHORP moved that the Chairman should report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. ELLICE said it was desirable that they should proceed then with the measure. Mr. BANKES said the principle iavolved in the clause before them ought at least to receive one fair discussion in that House, which could not take place at that hour —half-past one o'clock.—(Hear.) Colonel SIBTHORP announced his intention of per.. severing with his motion. The Committee; then divided, when there appeared—. For the motion ... Against it... ... Majority The Committee were then proceeding to pass the clause, when Mr. BANKES moved the omission of the word " salaries." ... 50 The Committee again divided, when there appeared— Ayes .. Noes ... ... 43 Majority against the motion On the re-admission of strangers, An HON. MEMBER moved that the Chairman should then report progress. Ayes ... .. Majority against the motion ... —29 Mr. ELLICE deprecated the system of obstruction adopted by a small minority upon a question on which the House had already decided. Mr. BANKES denied that a decision had been arrived at on the subject. He thought the Hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton),:who had so often carried a peremptory adjournment of the House at a late hour, was not acting in accordance with his principles in not supporting his present suggestions. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro tested against the attack made on the Hon. Member for Salford, who had been always anxious to promote public business, and not to obstruct it; and his conduct that night was founded on the same principle. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said English Members bad that night furnished an example which showed that the character for a factions obstruction of public business could not be entirely monopolised by his countrymen.— (Hear, hoar.) To the Noble Lord the Member for South Lincoln, the Hon. Member for Dorset, and the Hon. and Gallant Colonel near him, they were indebted for such an exemplification as their proceedings that night furnished. Indeed it would be difficult to pro nounce which of the two latter Hon. Members had most distinguished himself on the occasion. " Non nostrum inter vos tp.ntas componere lites: Et vitulii to dignum, et hic."—(Laughter.) Colonel SIBTHO RP said ho did not regret the course which ho had taken on that occasion. Mr. LABOUCHERE said ho would advise his Hon. Friend, atter the system of divisions that was going on, to consent to the Chairman reporting progress. Mr. AGLIONBY said he felt bound to take a division on the question. Mr. BROTHERTON having said a few words in de fence of the course he had pursued, Mr. BANKES reminded the Hon. Member that be had voted with him at the beginning of the sessioa that no money vote should bo taken after twelve o'clock. It was now two o'clock. The Committee then divided twice. For the Chairman leaving the chair:— Ayes Noes ... ... -25 ... 44 ••• 15 ..• ••• ••• ••• ... 42 ••• -27 ..• .•• Majority ... For reporting progress: — Ayes ... ... Noes ... .. 42 -23 Majority ..• On the gallery being opened, Mr. ELLICE said if the Hon. Gentleman would con sent to his proposal, he would agree not to take any future stage of the Bill on any night after twelve o'clock. Mr. BANKES having acceded to the suggestion, The CHAIRMAN reported progress, the House re sumed, and then Adjourned at a Quarter-past Two. Mr. CHRISTOPHER paired, in favour of the Ecelesias lea! Titles Bill, with THE O'GORMAN MAHON aping. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. (From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.) MONDAY, MAY 26. ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL. (IN THE COMMITTEE.) Clause 1 :—Another Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 24, to leave out the words " unlawful and :"—Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the a ,me." The Committee divided : MAJORITY—AYES, 179. MINORITY—NOES, 43. Arundel, Earl of . Keating, Robert PO'CrOr, Dr. Sir H. Keogh, William rowe r, Nicholas Barren, B M. Lawless, Cecil Reyno lds, Jonla Blake, , Si J. r Thomas 314. 1 n, W . 11. Roche, E. B. Castlereagh, Vise. 'Maher, N. S a dleir, John Clements, C. S. Meagher, Thomas Scu ll y ,Francis Colebrooke, Sir T. Monsell, Wl:llana Somers, J. P. Corbally, M. E. , Moore, G. If. Su llivan, Michael Talbot, J. Devereux, J. T. Murphy, F. S . H. U Fertescue, Chichester O'Brien, J. Urquhart. David W Gladstone, W. E. O'Brien , Sir 'Math/ ail, C. B. Goold, Wyndham O'Connor, Feargus Grace, 0. D. J. O'Ferrall, More TELLERS. Graham, Sir J. O'Flaherty, Anthony WCullagh, W. T. Iliggins, George Oswaid, Alexander Grattan, Henry Hutchins, E. J. reel, Frederick. ----_—_,---------_—_---_—_. Another Amendment proposed , to add at the end of the a se the following Proviso: Provided that nothing in CthlisuAct contained shall be construed to affect any Arch bishop or Bishop, or other person in Holy Orders of the Church of Rome, officiating in any District, or having pastoral superintendence of any congregation of persons professing the Roman Catholic Religion, according to the usages and discipline of the Church of Rome, in the United Kingdom, as they existed previous to the 2p9rtohvids:yboef• there S e P t e mber. 1850." Question put , " Thatthe added." The Committee divided:— MINORITY—AYES, 47. Anstey, T. C. Hope, Alexander O'Flaherty, Anthony Arundel, Earl of Howard, Sir R. Pinney, William Blake, Martin J. Keating, Robert Power, Dr. Blewitt, Reginald Keogh, William Power, Nicholas Clements, Charles Lawless, Cecil Reynolds, John Corbally, M. E. M'Cullagh, W. T. Seholetleld, W. Devereux, J. T. Alagan, W. 11. Scully, Francis Fagan, James Maher, N. Smythe, George Fortescue, Chichester Meagher, Thomas Talbot, J. H. Fox, It. M. Mahon, O'Gorman Tenison, Edward K. Gibson, T. M. Mousell, William Trelawny, J. S. Goold, Wnydh am Moore, G. 11. Wegg.Prosser, F. Grace, O. 1). Murphy, F. S. Young, Sir John Grattan, Henry Nugent, Sir Percy Greene, John O'Brien, Joha _. rELLIVI. Higgins, G. G. O'Brien, Sir T. • Roche, E. B. Bobbonze, T. B. O'Connell, John Sadleir, John MAJORITY-NOES, 278. rADVENTISEMENT.] Holloway's Ointment and Pills for the Cure of Scrofula, Cancerous Wounds, and o of ld Sores.— Asa A vorv, a youth, the son of Mr. James Avory, Ramsey, was severely afflicted with scrofulous wounds for three or four years, and during that period many remedies were tried, but without the least benefit whatever being derived from them. In this deplorable state Mr. Joseph Sergeant, chemist, o f Ramsey, recommended him to use Holloway's Ointment and Pills, and these invaluable medicines have been the means of effectually curing the boy of his shocking complaint in a very brief space of time, They are an efficacious remedy for bad legs, old sores, gout, and rheumatism. — Sold by all rugg ist and at Vrofesso r Holloway s Establishment, 244, S trand London. Letters from R ouen state that the manufacturing 1‘ intarat ntinued extremely deprvpecl 114 f decline Tig co NicC4. RChet ROY AL THAMES YACHT CLUB. As a seasonable relief to the sports of the turf the in terval between the great meetings of Epsom and Ascot was appropriately chosen for the first series of matches amongst yachts of this distinguished club, which came off yesterday. The weather was most propitious, and the assemblage proportionate to the interest which races of this club ordinarily excite. The Ruby had bees chartered by the Royal Thames Yacht Club for the con veyance of members and their friends, and amongst the company present we observed the Marquis of Stafford, Lord and Lady A. Paget, the Marquis of Conyngham, Lord Seaham, Lady Repton, Lord Londesborough, Captains Shertahaff and Lisiansky, of the Imperial Rus sian army; Admiral: Sir A. Greene, the Hon. J. For tescue, Sir J. R. Carnal; Burt., and many others of con siderable position in society, the party in all amounting to nearly 400. The Gemini, Dryad, Waterman 12 (steamers), with highly-respectable parties on board, besides a great number of gentlemen's yachts, also ac companied the race. The following were found at their stations at Erith, the course selected being thence to the Nore Light and back FIRST CLASS—Exceeding 30 Tons. Heroine, 35 tons, Cowes, R. Bell, sen., Esq. Tartar, 36 tons, Cowes, W. H. Dawes, Esq. Mosquito, 50 tons, London, L or d L on d es b oroug h . Cynthia, 50 tons, Landon, John Wicks, Esq. SECOND CLASS—Exceeding 15 Tons and not exceeding 30 Tons. Phantom, 21 tons, London, Samuel Lane, Esq. Whisper, 19 tong, London, Thos. Ereleigh, Esq. Secret, 23 tons, Cowes, R. Bell, jun., Esq. THIRD CLASS-10 Tons and not exceeding 15. Frolic, 12 tons, London, Alfred Cox, Esq. Sea Nymph, 10 tons, South'ton, Chas. W heeler, Esq. Bicv.ppa, 12 tons, South 'sou, Chas. Bromley, Esq. Half-minute time per ton for difference of tonnage in each class. The prizes for competition were three pieces of plate of very beautiful workmanship, having been expressly designed and executed for the occasion. The first of these, value 100 guineas, was executed by Messrs. Hunt and Roskell, for the first-class yachts; the second by Messrs. Smith and Nicholson, for the middle class; and the third by Mr. Widowsen, for the small craft. The subjects of the whole had been most appropriately chosen, and reflected much credit upon the respecti ve firms from which they had emanated. Upon reaching Blackwall there was every sympton of the continuance of a fine whole sail breeze from the northward, and many were the speculations as to the probable results of the day's sport. The Musquito, a most beautiful boat at anything in which space and power in the finest points of sailing is to be illustrated, was freely banked at even. Next to her stood the Cyn thia, her opponent in many a gallant race, determined with varied results. The general opinion appeared to be that, while the wind continued to blow stiffly, it was the Musquito's victory, in support of which view 3 to 1 was laid in one or two instances against the Cynthia but that if it fell off, the Cynthia:n2ight,be found more the' a match for her. The Tartar and Heroine were, how ever, craft of such established repute as to render the race, with the allowance of time to which they were entitled, of a very interesting character, the Heroin., perhaps, having won more cups in various races, espe cially to the westward, than any vessel afloat. The Tartar was also considered good in a stiff breeze, but, notwithstanding the excellent character with which the two latter entered upon yesterday's contest, they were not by the cognoscenti deemed good enough to bo backed with much chance of success against either the formid able and beautiful Musquito and Cynthia, the former of whom has been more successful than her opponent in th e river. Of the second class the Secret appeared to be th e first in demand, and in the third the Frolic and Mazepo t divided the interest. Everything being in readiness, the commodore, Lord Alfred Paget, took his station on the paddle-box of the Ruby, and at 11h. 32 min. 53 sec. the signal was fired for starting. The boats all canted round at the same moment, with one or two exceptions, and the accastomed alacrity was displayed in stretching every stitch of canvas they could conveniently carry, the wind being so favourable that they could lie down every reach, with one or two excep tions, when they had to make a board all the way down. The Frolic first got her sails in trim, b ut s h e, as well as the Musquito, was delayed by not letting go h er spr i ng quite in time enough; indeed the latter might b e con sidered the sternmost, although everything was set. With her usual expertness, the Cynthia's jib was for an instant clewed up, but she soon got to work. The three least boats opposite, and a trifle below the others at the station, went beautifully away side by side. Of the second class the Secret had a slight lead, but there was a very trifling difference amongst that class. Amongst the great yachts the Tartar took a decided and good lead, followed closely by boats of every class but the Musquito. The latter, however, soon began to show the stuff she was made of, and gradually overhauled the various boats until she acquired a most prominent position; during which time the Cynthia went to windward of the Phantom and reached into the second place at Purfleet, the Tartar being still first, the Whisper third, and the Musquito putting in an appearance as a good fourth. Shortly after passing Greenhithe the latter exchanged places with the Whisper, and also passed the Cynthia. There was some pretty work in the Lower Hope, a board becoming necessary, and the wind having lightened, the Cynthia took down with her a nice breeze, which wafted her beautiful form into the leading place, a position she did not, however, long enjoy. The Musquito, which had previously to this covered the Tartar and winded her, went out from under the Cynthia's lee and drew ahead again, retaining it, and exhibiting herself first at the Nora Light, which was rounded in the following order: h. min. sec. Musquito ... 2 16 Cynthia ... 2 19 58 Tartar ... 2 22 12 Heroine •.• ••• •.• 2 "23 20 Whisper 26 22 Secret ••• ••• ••• 2 33 15 Phantom ... 2 36 50 Mszeppa ... 2 49 58 Frolic ••• ... 2 53 20 s ca Nymph ... 2 56 25 Had the wind continued as steady as in the morning the journey up would have been almost as fair and rapid as that in the earlier portion of the race; but a change " came o'er the tenor of the scene." After a slight shower the wind became variable and light, with occa sional calms, which had the effect of changing the pros pect of things. The Musquito fell off as the wild de clined, and the Heroine having passed, the Tartar began to gain prodigiously upon the leading boats, but again fell back; the Maz..pp:a on her part playing a similar game, and really exhibiting a most beautiful pace during the prevalence of light sire. The zephyrs were courted most assiduously by the captains of the re spective yachts, and all that nautical skill could achieve was developed to retain or improve the position of the craft. Off the l3ligh beacon the Mosquito w as leading best by a trifle, the Cynthia second, toe Heroine third, Tar tar fourth, Whisper fifth, th en t h e S ecre t, Mazeppa, and ___Phantom. In Sea Reach the Mazeppa crept up to the Whisper, after having passed the other two, which had been between them at the turning point, and went by her in gallant style. Soon after this the excitement of the race materially increased, and a change of the most important character occurred, when the two leading yachts had arrived within rive or six miles of home, besides other matters which materially altered the result of the day's sport. From Gravesen the struggle be tween the Musquito and Cynthia, as far as the weather of n t t h h e i a most tried a t o n i m p a a s te s d h e c r h a t r o a citeeer: would permit, was w A a g r a d i , n b a t int was d s"auinnatbblea,CaYed the Musquito on each occa sionbut on entering St. el me eatnhte. , rsi th Csytonitehiaawbaryinfgroinmg her;with her a nice capful of air, luffed to windward of the Musquito, the latter, in consequence of being becalmed at the moment, having no power -co to resist the movement, and once having got the gauge of her adversary, when the wind came, W hi ch it did in two or th ree minutes afterwards, th e we nt in advance and retained it. Cynthia The boats came in thus : li r e - Cynthia (the winner) .., .: rein. BCC. Musquito ... *** ' 2 7 48 Heroine ... .. • - ,1 18 • •.• .. Tartar ... ... ... ••• ' 51 29 Mazeppa (winner of 2d class 10 i .. 7 5 20 Secret ... ... • r ze i 8 ••• 8 32 40 14 30 Phantom 8 32 40 Whisper (winner 8 of class 3 3d whole prize) . . 8 of 3 the 23 second 5 30 0 The Mazeppa, by b ea ti ng the ::: 6 class, and taking that • for the second prise, left the one of third value class, which the Whisper became entitled to by the bias allowed her. The '• prizes were duly presented by the commander in the usual manner, and the company then returned to town. The attentionof Messrs. Morgan, Cooke, M'Geedes, and Nicholas, stewards of the club, deserves the highest commendation, as do the bands on board the }why, as also the Royal Artillery bands, for their skilful per. formances. ____ ISLE OF WIGHT ELECTION. (FROM OUR OWN CORER ONDENT.) CLOSE OF THE FIRST DAY'S POLL . MAY 27.—The grea test excitement has Fren .1 daring the day at the three polling Places. ie d At Newport lir. Dawes polled 259 ... TT ...amond 23Z Ryde . f 145 ... Cowes II 74 ... " 95 11 123 478 451 ' majority f or the Free-trade candidate ... 27. At twelve o clock liamond h a d po ll e d 51 at Cowes, and paves fro 48, when the Solent s t eamer b roug h t 56 voters Yarmouth and that ne i g hb our h oo d f or Es mond, waking him 112 to Dawes' 56. In the next three bouts all the exertions of the Tories could bring only 11 men to the poll, while the Liberals polled 18. There aro 1,167 registered electors, of whom 929 have polled; there remains only 238, of whom the dead, absent, and neutral are by far the most numerous. Bribery and intimidation will do its work with the remainder to night. Still we h ave every reason to believe that the Liberal candidate w ill b e returned. An awfully sudden death took place at I,ole. tyde, from Mr. .. overt xcitement, of the Tory solicitor. t __— Tap LATE SUICIDE or Mg. J. POWEE.—The Linterici o,,hr on i c k sa y s —. , The late much-regretted Mr. John Power, of Gurteen, has left a line property of 9,000/. a year, of which 3,0001. a year is out of settlement, and which will pay his engagements. It is now ascertained that the cause of suicide was the receipt of a solicitor's letter an nouncing prompt proceedings against him as security for 10,000/. for a receiver, whose debts, however, did not exceed 2,000/. He insured his life for 5,000/., which he assigned for a valuable consideration some years ago to a bank, and which will be paid by the Royal Exchange Insurance Com pany within three months. Mr. Power's amiable widow llaa 1,0004 II ',At letllsmeut , left 51Teu as rned Quito