The Sun. — London, England, 1850-03-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 8. The LORD CII kNCELLOR took his scat npryil the Woo seek at Five o'clock. The_ Bishop of LONDON presented a petition against relaxgystems int actories; also a petition praying for the sanitary improvement in the city of London; and a pe tition from the journeymen tailors praying for a legisla tive measure compelling master tailors to have all work done on.thcir premises. Lord MONTEAGLE presentei a petition in favour of union rating. The Earl of MOUNTCASFIELL presented a petition in favour of the measure for preventing the increase of beer-houses. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Knaresborough complaining of agricultural distress; also 26 petitions with a similar complaint from parishes in Lincolnshire, and prayinr , for protection. Ile trusted the landed interest would ' never remain satisfied with the present state of the law; they had always suffered thsmselves to be too easily fleeced. DISEASED SHEEP. The NOBLE DUKE wished to draw the atten tion of the Government bo the fact that certain foreign sheep affected with small-pox had been seized ; some had been killed and others sold to defray the expenses. The case was reported in the newspapers as having been brought under the attention of the City authorities at the Mansion-house. Ile should after Easter move for the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the operation of the law permitting the importation of sheep and cattle. BANKRUPTCY CONSOLIDATION BILL. Lord BROUGHAM postponed the second reading of this Bill for six weeks, as he intended to introduce some alterations in it. EDUCATION. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE drew the atten tion of the House to a letter which he had received from the Hon.. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Talbot) in rela tion to the charges of misstatement which he had brought against the speakers at the meeting. One of those misstatements was that not a shilling of the public money was given to any school unless it adopted the clauses imposed by the Privy Council. As an answer to the misstatement he now laid on the table returns which would prove that misstatement. He did not impute to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that he bad wilfully mis represented, but that he had been misinformed; and in reply he laid on the table a list of between 400 and 500 Church of England schools which had received assist ance without subscribing to these clauses. Lord STANLEY regretted that the Noble Marquis bad not communicated to his Hon. and Learned Friend his intention of placing these papers on the table. lle nnderstod that the cause of complaint on the part of the clergy of the Church of England was, that at pre sent no schools could receive assistance without accept ing those clauses. Possibly that was what his Hon. and Learned Friend had stated, and he might have been misreported. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that those schools were receiving, and would continue to receive, assistance for any purpose except for building, but the statement was that it had not received a shilling of public money fur any purpose whatever, and that statement he denied, and the returns proved that those statements were.unfouuded. With regard to misreport ing, all the reports in all the papers ascribed the same language to the lion. and Learned Gentleman. PARTY PROCESSIONS (rRELAND) BILL. _ _ _ . _ _ _ On the order of the day for the third mailing of this Bill beim.. moved, The Earl of ELLENBOROUGII moved certain verbal amendments in various clauses, for the purpose of leav ing it optional with the magistrate to declare meetings and processions unlawful, as it was already left optional to him to interfere by force to disperse the meeting. The LORD , CHANCELLOR objected to the pro posed alteration. It was lett optional to the magis trate whether or not he should interfere by force to dis perse the meeting, because perhaps he might not have the means; but when once the meeting was declared unlar.ful those present were under an obligation to dis perse, and if they refused they might afterwards be pro secuted and punished. Lord STANLEY objected to the wording of the Bill as most ambiguous and calculated to mislead the magis t rates. Lord CAMPBELL said that the Bill was verbatim et hteratim the same as the Bill Ns hich had been introduced by the Noble Lord himself when he was Secretary for Ireland, and which had been the law of the land for many a long year. After a short conversation some of the amendments were agreed to. Lord BROUGHAM said, that he had come down to support the Duke of Wellington's amendment with re gard to the prohibition of carrying arms, but as he had been given to understand that the introduction of such an amendment would delej the passing of the measure until after the 17th of March, the great Ribbon anniver sary, he begged to suggest to the Noble Duke that he should withdraw his amendment. The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that on the motion for the second reading of the Bill, he had thought it his duty to suggest a provision, with a view to pre vent the evils which not unfrequently arise from the sommon practice of one party burying their dead with certain ceremonies, and ano'her party endeavouring by violence, and with arms, to interrupt those ceremonies. He had wished to enable the rnagiatrates of Ireland to take measures to effectually prevent the collisions likely to take place on such occasions, but if the clause was likely to risk the rejection of the Bill, he was not the person to press it. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH objected to the with drawal of the amendment, as he thought it essential to render the measure a perfect one, but if the amendment was withdrawn, would the Government pledge itself to bring in an Arms Bill? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE refused to give such a pledge, and said the subject would he brought before the House on the renewal of the Act enabling the Lord- Lieutenant to proclaim disaffected districts. After a short conversation the clause was withdrawn. Lord MONTEAGLE said the clause of which he had given notice did not go beyond the principle or scope of the Bill. The object of the clause which,he proposed to introduce, was to render arms borne at any of these meet ings subject to forfeiture. He could not see what objec tion could be made to the clause, as it was calculated to carry out the object of the Government. In the present Bill the arms were forfeited, if the meeting refused to disperse, and this only extended the penalty when arms were borne at all, and would effect what all were de sirous to effect—that the appearing in arms in Ireland should be pat an end to. He would not, however, wish to do anything that might delay or. endanger the passage of the Bill through the other House of Par liament. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE objected to have the power of seizing the arms placed at the discretion of a peace-officer. The Duke of RICHMOND thought it would be de sirable to prevent persons going to these meetings with arms. The parties who appeared in arms could not take them for any good purpose. Earl GREY said the penalty of forfeiting the arms, on refusing to disperse, was sufficient. Lord STANLEY said the question really was, wile the penalty of forfeiture should not be extended to groups of twenty or thirty men parading with arms in the evening of the day of meeting, and who would con sider themselves free to do so, the meeting having dis persed upon the request provided by the Bill. If the other House of Parliament were desirous to put down these processions, he could see no reason why they should refuse to extend the penalty of forfeiture as pro posed by this clause. The Bill would be sent down to the other House that evening, and therefore there would be ample time to pass it suf►ciently early to prevent any unpleasant consequences. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he had no ob jection, but he doubted the expediency of endangering the passing of the Bill by introducing it. The Duke of RICHMOND suggested that the clause should be amended so as to confine the seizing of the arms to the magistrate present at the meeting. After some further conversation the clause. amended rproposed, was agreed to. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said there was a doubt with regard to the fourth clause, whether the in curring a penalty tinder this Bill would not take the offence lout of the remedy or penalties of the common law, and he thought that point should be set at rest and made clear. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the words of the first clause of the Bill would prevent the necessity .f the Noble Earl's amendment, by effecting what he desired, The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he was satis fied with such a declaration from the Noble Lord, and withdrewhis amendment. The Bill wits read a third time, and passed. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March a. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock, NEW MEMBER. Mr. MAcs.Ar took the oaths and his seat for Kirk. cadbrigh t. PETITIONS. Mr. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from New. nestle praying that the provisions in the Australian Colonies Bill relating to public worship might be ex punged. Mr. AIUNDY presented a petition from Derbyshire in favour of agricultural protection. Lord H. VANE presented a petition from Staines in favour of county financial boards. Mr. B. DENISON presented similar petitions from the West Riding of Yorkshire. Colonel DUNNE presented a petition from Westmeath praying for an alteration in the mode of executing public works in Ireland. Mr. REYNOLDS presented several petitions from the county of Dublin praying for the total repeal of the excise duty on paper. gr. WATKINS presented a petition from Woodstock in favour of the Marriage Bill. A great number of similar petitions were presented. Lord DUDLEY STUART presented a petition signed by 1,708 journeymen t,ilors in London, ,praying that the House might appoint a Committee to inquire into the grievances connected with their trade ; also a petition from 3 public meetin g of carvers and gilders, praying for the repeal of the duty on paper and adver tisements, and also the penny stamp on newspapers; and a petition to the same effect from printers in the -employ of Mr. John Cartwell, in Essex-street, sty /la d . - , e '<7 2-7 ,..„... N: Mr, ELLIS, presented a petition from Coventry in ~_"l 4 ..---' 4: '=' , 2l,othfr'of the Marriage Bill. :-: L',- -- ' 4 4 ,4 0 $a IDERMAN SIDNEY presented a petition V , ~, • 1 „:.,.., i .. ...K;,., r ; , , j , srom f ilt a ord to the same effect. . . f:';'', l ;• r e o ° l 9* LINDSAY presented petitions from several 1 i - - P" . . - .i...:p1 aces - in - Lanca shir ein favour of county financial boards. 'J7 Mr. GR(JGAN presented a petition from Dublin ' tip Parliamentary Franchise Bill. REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS IN __,YESTMINSTER. In reply to a question from Mr. LUSHINGTON, re specting the appointment of Mr. Robert Daly Walker to be registrar of births and deaths in the ni,triet of Berwick-street, in the parish of St. James, Westminster, Mr. BAINES said that gentleman had been appointed by the Poor-law Commission because they thought him to be the most fit and proper person for the office. It was true he lived at a greater distance from his district than was required by the Registration Aet, hut he had promised to reside within the required distance, and the committee had no doubt about his fulfilling that promise. Sir J. WALMSLEY presented a petition from Bolton in favour of the Marriage Bill. Mr. BATESON presented a petition from London derry against the Landlord and Tenant Bill. Lord J. MANNERS presented a petition from Col chester praying for an amendment of the Factory Act. 4 „.• F inurts Mr. I son3t 0 THE MALT TAX. Mr. MUNTZ wished to ask the Hon. Member who had given notice of a motion for the repeal cf the malt tax when it was his intention to bring it forward? Mr. CAYLEY had intended to bring it on next Thursday, but, at the request of several friends out of doors, he now begged to give notice that he should not bring it on till after Easter. NAVIGATION-LAWS. Lord JOHN MANNERS, seeing the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade in his place, he wished to ask him if his attention had been di rected to the fact that a ship had been taken out of Liverpool without the owner's consent. He wished also to ask whether a foreign ship coming to this country to be registered ought to pay the duty under the existing tariff? Mr. LABOUCHERE said the facts of the case re ferred to by the Noble Lord had come to his know ledge, and instructions had been forwarded to the British Consul at Tampico to assist the owner in recovering his ship in the event of its being brought into that port. With regard to the second question, it had always been held that a foreign ship coming into this country for the purpose of being registered, was not liable to duty, but if it was brought in for the pur pose of being broken up, it was subjected to a duty cf 25 per cent. AUSTRALIAN COLONIES. Sir W. AIOLESWORTH gave notice that in Com mittee on the Australian Colonies Bill, in the event of the amendment being carried that there should be two instead of one legislative assembly in Austraiis, he should move that both of them should be elective, THE COASTING TRADE. Mr. NEWDEGATE said that he bad been consider ably surprised by the differences which appeared on the face of some of the Governmert returns, and wishe4 therefore to ask the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trale to give some explanation of the discre pancy which appears in the accounts of the coasting trade, as rendered in the Trade and Navigation Returns by the Board of Trade, and shows an apparent excess of clearances outwards over the entries iHwards, both in the number of vessels and amount of tonnage. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the best reply which he could give would be to read an extract from the re turns themselves. This the Right Hon. Gentleman then did, showing that the papers were all in unison, and concluded by saying that this was the best answer that he could give to the question. HOSPITALS IN DUBLIN. Mr. GROGAN wished to ask the Right Honourable the Secretary for Ireland, if it be the intention of her Majesty's Government to withdraw the grants hereto fore made by Parliament for the maintenance of the Dublin hospitals. Sir W. SOMERVILLE was not aware that there was any intention on the part of Government to with draw these grants, though ho did believe that there would be some change in the application of them. POOR-LAW UNIONS IN IRELAND. livreply to Colonel CHATTERTON, Sir W. SObIERVILLE stated that he was not aware that any change was about to be made in the constitu tion of the poor-law unions inlreland. ABOLITION OF THE OFFICE OF LORD-LIEU- TENANT OF IRELAND. The LORD MAYOR of DUBLIN asked the Noble Lord at the head of the Government if it was the inten tion of her Majesty's Government to introduce or sup port, during the present session of Parliament, any measure for the abolition of the office of Lord-Lieute nant of Ireland? He said he asked this question in con sequence of the excitement which prevailed on the subject in Dublin, and which was increased by an article in that great organ of public opinion, the Times news paper of yesterday. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his Hon. Friend would be aware that it would be impossible t• abolish the office e Lord-Lieutenat of Ireland without introducing a Bill into that House, of which due notice would have to be given. He would say further, that the Government had fur some time been in consulta tion as to the propriety of introducing a Bill to abolish that office—(Hear, hear)—and they had been in communication with the Lord-Lieutenant on the sub ject. If any such Bill were introduced it would be brought forward in the name of the Government, and not of that of any private Member of the House. VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL. In reply to an HoN. MEMBER, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it would depend upon the progress which might be made to-night in the Com mittee of Supply whether this Bill would be brought on again on Monday; but if it were agreed to in Commit tee, the Government did not propose to take the third reading until after Easter. - ECCLESIASTICAL BILL. In reply to Mr. HORSIIAN, Lord J. RUSSELL sail' he would not be able to take this Bill on the Bth of April, but might be able to do so on the Monday following. ARMY ESTIMATES. On the mot:on that the House should go into Com mittee on the Army Estimates, Mr. FOX MAULE said he hoped that the Hon. and Gallant Member who had notice of a motion, on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Esti mates, to draw the attention of the House to the brevet which took place on the occasion of her Majesty's late visit to Ireland, would withdraw his motion or postpone it to some future period. Major BLACKALL said he should be sorry to go on with any motion of his against the wish of the House, but as it was a subject which was not of general inte rest, he hnd taken the opportunity of the Hon. Member for the West Riding's motion, when there would be a full House, to call the attention of the House to the subject in question. Lord J. RUSSELL said that, however unimportant or brief the subject might be, if the Gallant Member persisted in going on with his motion, it would prevent the Hon. Member for the West Riding from going on with his motion. Major BLACKALL could not consent to withdraw his motion, although, being an exclusively military one, it would not be of such general interest. He had to complain that the officers of the line had been unfairly treeted by the promotions which were made on the occasion of her Majesty's visit to Ireland. On occa sions like that promotions were made, but they wore too often confined to the officers of the household troops, and he thought it was high time that this system of favouritism was put a stop to. He had no personal interest in bringing this matter before the House. He knew none of the gentlemen who were passed over on the occasion of the late brevet, while he wog acquainted with many who enjoyed promotion under it, and if, therefore, he were to allow his feelings to prevail now, it ought to be rather against than for this motion. He had taken notice of this simply because it was a public duty, and not for the purpose of serving his own interest or the interest of any friend of his.—(Hear, hear.) Now, on the occasion of her Majesty's visit to Ireland a large brevet was granted, in which several majors were promoted to be lieutenant-colonels, five captains to be majors, and several other officers were similarly advanced. On the 15th February he had moved for a return of the services of those officers who had been promoted in the brevet, and he had to complain that that return had not been laid upon the table. He was told as an excuse for the delay, that the return had to be referred to Dublin for verification. That he thought to be merely an excuse, but as the return was not at hand he would read a statement of the names of the officers who had been promoted and of those who had not been promoted during the late brevet. This the Hon. Gentleman then did. He hoped her Majesty would be induced, on these re presentations, to extend the brevet to those deserving officers who had been passed over during the late royal visit to Ireland, and if this were done the cost would not be more than 2201. It had been suggested that distinc tions were only to be conferred upon officers in the Dublin garrisons, but that could not be so, for he bad seen various honours conferred upon officers in Cork and other places through which her Majesty passed. The Hon. and Gallant Member concluded by moving that an humble address bo presented to her Majesty on tho subject. Mr. FOX MAULE was sorry that his Hon. and Gal. lant Friend should have thought it necessary to delay the business of the night by interposing a motion which he should feel it necessary to ask the House to reject. Much of his explanation would de pend on certain returns which had not yet been furnished to the House, and ho thought teat, a s t h ese returns required the nameof every eo'ffifs officer o s in t o s'e u r r tvhi: Or gn aeitn sucroe l r r t e o l t a d n t uh d tey a s t e ro the e e w, t i whether eht o h f etrh h eo e yh r Majesty guard had been employed, t h e i r rank, ' and date of com mission, the length of service at home or abroad, mus t necessarily be o f a complicated nature , it was impossible for the Commander-in-Chief to have got these returns ready. Th e b revet was granted upon the princ iple that it w as t o he confined to the garrison of Dublin, be cause i t was understood the senior officers of the line were stationed there. There were six other officers promoted b es i des those he had mentioned, in consideration that the officers Lord-Lieutenant promoted were o attached r the c tu to the ola personalstaff hifc. ofthe of the troupe, whom it was customary to pre mote on all occasions when brevets weregranted They could not stretch these honours beyond a certain extent. He regretted that such should be the case, but at the same time there wLre considerations by which they were obliged to be bound, and he could not therefore assent to the motion of his Hon. and Gallant Friend (Major Blackall) for an address to her Majesty for a revi sion of the br( vet.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. lIUME said that he protested altogether against the motion of the Honourable and Gallant Gentleman opposite, and against the answer which had been given to it by the Government. The Gallant Member had talked of a paltry economy; for his own part ho con cei‘ ed that every shillieg that was added to the taxation was a gross and uncalled for loaf osition on the people.— (Hear.) The brevet, he believed, instead of having been too narrow, had been most shamefully and infa mously abused.--(g e ar.) It was true that the Qugen had the power of promoting whosoever she liked, and she might make as many dukes, and lords, and capta;ns, and majors as she liked, wherever she went—(Dear, hear, and great laughter)—but with respect to this especial case he would remark that the original intention f the brevet was to promote officers of extra ordinary merit. The rule had, hosvever, degenerated, and the late brevet had added at least 100,0001. a year to the taxation of the country.—(llear, hear.) Such was the case with the several brevet; which had taken place prior to the year 1833; but instead of the brevet being a grant of the Crown it had been perverted into an organ of Ministerial patro nage.—(Hear, hear.) Such it ought not to be; and so long as the system was continued be should protest against any of those infranctions of that paltry economy which was so injurious to the public interest. Colonel DUNNE ewpressed his regret that such a scanty brevet had been issued on the occasion cf the royal visit. Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would not press the motion to a division. He was one of those who thought a brevet ought never to take place, but if it did, it ought to be fairly dis tributed, and be given to old officers, and not to young officers who had seen no service. He was compelled to say that an undue preference had been shown in the distributio❑ of the brevet in Dublin. Colonel RAWDON hoped that the Gallant Member would not press his motion. After a few words of explanation from Major BLACKALL, the motion was withdrawn. SUPPLY.—REDUCTION OF EXPENDITURE. On the question that the Speaker leave the chair, previous to the House going into a Committee of Supply on the Army Entimates, Mr. COBDEN presented a petition from Liverpool, signed by 30,000 persons, in favour of the principles of financial reform. He complained of the manner in which the expenditure of the country was submi , ted to the Legislature, so different from the method of other constitutional countries, because when the esti mates were brought forward in the House, any material alteration which might be made in them was taken as a vote of want of confidence. The manner in which be had brought his motion forward was not with any such view, but it was simply to ask the House to come to a resolution embodying a return to the taxation of 1835. This course was not a new one-1792 had been the standard the Whigs had quoted and wished to return to for a quarter of a century. He should ask the Government to show reasons why they would not sanction a gradual return to the standard of 1835. With the permission of the House he would read a few figures showing the relative difference of expenditure in the years 1836 and 1850: —ln the yeas ending the sth of January, 1836, the interest cf the national debt, feuded and unfunded, was 28,514,0001.; in the year ending the sth January. 1850, it was 28,323,0001.; the army expenses were in the first-named year 6,460,000/., in the latter year 6,549,0001.; the navy ex penses 4,990,0001. and 6,942,000/. respectively. The ex penses of the Ordnance department in the first year amounted to 1,151,000/, in the last year t , ) 2,323,000/., and the civil expenditure 4,223,000/, and 6,732,000/. for the respective years. When he brought forward his financial statement last year he had stated that the excess of expenditure during the preceding year over that of 1835 was upwards of 10,000,000/. According to the estimates he found that the relative amounts of expenditure, in 1849 and 1835, were 53,550,000/. against 44,395,000/. He was not stating the matter from the estimates of the present year, but from last year ; and by that it appeared that the excess of expenditure of 1850 over 1835 was 6,453,0001. But taking the estimates of the ensuing year, be thought that a million further at least would be saved, making the total difference 5,500,000/. Well, that was encouraging, but it only showed that however desirous the Ministry might be of econo mising, there was such a pressure from with out, such an urgency from the several profes sional departments of the state, that unless the Govern ment were backed by a stern determination of that House they would never be able to accomplish that which they very possibly desired.—(Hear, hear.) How then was he to;effect that saving? He would now show. It was to be understood that he had to deal with an ex cess of 63 millions. He proposed, in the first place, to reduce the army and navy and ordnance estimates by 5,820,0001. The remaining 630,0001. he intended to take from the civil expenditure, and from the expense of managing the office of Woods and Forests, which he suggested should be placed under better management. He thought that the Hon. Gentleman would agree with him that these were things which ought not to be re peated. (Hear, hear.) If they east their eyes over this long list they would find many things which would not have been allowed in this day, and which never could be repeated.—(Hear, hear.) Bat still they required a strict supervision by this House.—(Hear, hear.) In looking over those many items, and considering the cases of many of the parties receiving pensions, he found that it was not unreasonable to expect that a very con siderable saving would accrue to the state every year.— (Hear.) He next came to salaries and allowances, and in alluding to that portion of the subject he might observe that Hon. Gentlemen opposite would agree with him in first noticing the large sum expended for the support of a number of Commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) He thought we bad too many commissions. He should pre fer:to commissioners one well-paid responsible, intelligent functionary.—(Hear, hear.) When Home Ministers and Foreign Ministers are entrusted with such powers as they possessed, he could not understand why they should not give to an individual of good talents and character the responsibility of commissioners. The work would be better and cheaper done by such an individual than it would be by a board of commissioners. —(Hear, hear.) I He believed it was Jeremy Bentham who said that a board was a screen; and it was not a bad one. He next came to the diplomatic salaries and pensions. Now there, he thought, they had a rich harvest to reap.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) They had a sum of 172,5951. as the total charge for one year for diplomatic services and pensions. From the detials of that charge he would give them a few instances. There was a sum of 10,0001. a year to the British Ambassador in France; 9,900/. a year to the British Ambassador in Austria. Now, let them just see what were the charges incurred under the same heads by the Government of the United States ; and let it be borne in mind, that although he was ready to grant that no comparison could fairly be insti tuted between the expenditure necessary for the hoed of the state under a monarchy like this, and the head of a republican government like that of the United States, he thought he was justified in contending that there was no good reason why the necessary expenses of the representative of the one country at a foreign court should greatly exceed those of the representative of the other country at the same court. The British Ambassa dor at Paris received 10,000/. a year, the American Am bassador at Paris received 2,000/. a year; the British Ambassador at Vienna received 9,9001. a year, the American Minister at Vienna received 1,000/. a year; the British Ambassador at Constantinople received 6,5001. a year, the American Minister at Constantinople received 1,300/. a year; the British Envoy at St. Peters burgh received 6,600/. a year, the American Envoy at St. Petersburgh received 2,000/. a year.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that many of those charges ought to be sup pressed altogether. There was, for instance, a sum of 3,4001. for a Minister in Hanover, and there was a sum of 4,0001. for a Minister in Bavaria. Now, he could see no necessity for either of those charges; and he believed that in private they were denounced by every Member of this House, whatever might be the language which Hon. Gen tlemen held upon such subjects in public. Every one was aware that such functionaries could do no good, while they sometimes did mischief. His (Mr. Cobden's) firm belief was, that they might reduce the cost of their diplo matic services by one-half ; and even then they would be paying twice as much as the people of the United States paid for the same services. He came next to the courts of justice. Under the head of courts of justice in the civil expenditure he found for the year ending the sth of January, 1850, a charge of 1,105,0004; while during the year ending on the sth of January, 1836, the cost under the same head amounted to 430,000/. It was true that that increase had arisen mainly from the transfer to that item of a sum of 551,000/. for the Irish constabulary force. But he still thought that a con siderable reduction might be made in the salaries and expenses of our judicial establishments. He was one of those who considered that it would be very bad economy to pay judges too low; but he also believed that there was great room for a reduction in the salaries of our judges when he found them amounting to sums of COON., 6,0001., 7,000/., and 8,0001. a year. In Ireland, in parti cular, he found that salaries were paid to the judges wholly disproportioned to the resources and condition of that country. One judge in Ireland received not less than 8,000/. a year, while in the United States the highest judicial functionary in the world, the judge of the Supreme Court at Washington, who decided interna tional disputes between the several states and interpreted with his colleagues without appeal, the constitution of the United states, received only 1,200/. a year, and some of the most eminent men of the age had filled that post. Then there were the miscellaneous charges on the Consolidated Fund, which had amounted to 388,0001. last year, against 274,0001. in the year ending sth of January, 1836. He found that out of the sum so spent last year upwards of 50,000/. had been devoted to de fraying the costs of commissions in Ireland. Now, surely these commissions were not to last for ever, and some of them might he believed be managed at less ex pense. He next passed to the great item of miscella neous charges on annual grants of Parliament which had amounted last year to 3,911,000/. against 2,144,0001. in the year ending on the sth of January, 1836. Under that item came public works, all the salaries and ex penses of the public departments and all our colonial and consular establishments. Why every word he read indicated an excessive amount of ex penditure under that head. There were, for instance, the public works. Why, the House they were in, or rather the House which they hoped to get into, was a scandal to them.—(Cheers.) He had no voice in the arrangements for the construction of that House, and perhaps if he had had one he should have erred like other Members; but it seemed to him that from the be ginning it had been a most melancholy failure.—(Hear.) They had adopted the florid Gothic style of architecture —the most expensive which it was possible for the mind of man to conceive—and he should further say that their entire proceedings in the House cf Commons, from the pinnacle of the new house down to the sweepings of the floor, were characterised by the most disgraceful waste and extravagance. He proposed then there should be a saving of 650,000/. in the expenditure to which ho referred, and he believed that the Honourable Gentleman, the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), would guarantee him a still greater sav inglyaestars,yebarecauese l t a h r a g t e r o e n . . duction of the salaries of our p ublic servant s , and a me m in be r the had coarse ad v o o f a advocated last general cutting down of our establi shm ent s. He should next proceed to that item which , as it was the largest, was also the one which bad excited -the most disisission —be meant the cost of our armameuts.He had last year detailed to the House the various successive increases which had been made to our military and naval estab lishincnte from the year 1536 to the year 13 43, for the purpose ( f meeting certain special emergencies ; ',and he heti then pointed out, as he should again remind the Howe, that when those emergencies, such as the Oregon boundary dispute, the Marino boundary dispute, the JleLeod affair, and others, had passed away, the expen diture which had been incurred for the purpose of meeting them lied remained unchanged. They came to the discussion of the subject at that moment with the additional valet) of another year's experience. They were another year further removed from that greet crisis in the history of Europe which almost every body had expected was to lead to the most calamitous consequences in the firm of inter national wars. Now, he thought, that if there was one consoling facture —one drop of sweetness in the cup of gall, which had been poured out upon Europe during the last two years, it was that they had elicited from all that turmoil and convulsion the feet that there was no disposition among the great bulklof the people cf any nation to pass their frontiers and to make war upon neighbouring states.—(Hear, hear.) Ho spoke of the people as distinguished from their governments. They had always been told that when Louis Phillippe should die the French people would break their prison-bars and ravage Europe; but they ha I seen that when the French people had got the reins into their own hands tbey had manifested no in clination to carry war into their neighbours' territories. Now, he did not want to assume that the millennsum!had come, and that there could never again be as inter national war; and neither did he ask them totally to dis mantle their ships, and to leave their ports defenceless; but he asked them to concur with him in this—that the experience of the last twelve ruonths had rather con firmed than invalidated the statement he bad made last year as to the safety of our effecting a gradual reduction of our armaments. He had alluded last year to the state of our relations with our colonies, and a most important change bad since been proposed by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in those relations. The Noble Lord had lately proposed that a system of self-government should be extended to the colonies—that the people there should have the right of forming their own constitutions, of levying their own taxes, and fixing their own tariffs — powers which the Government of the United States did not grant to the different Members of their union; and he would put it to the Noble Lord whether, after those concessions had been made to the inhabitants of our co lollies, he could expect that the more highly-taxed and less-prosperous people of this country would continue to defray the expenses of the troops who acted there solely as a military police?—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cobden) believed that no Minister with a head on his shoulders could entertain any such expectation. He knew no mo tive which could account for the continuance of such a system, except & desire on the part of the heads of our Government to retain a certain amount of patronage in Downing-street. He believed that by the withdrawal of the forces in our distant colonies, the consequent di minution of duty in our army, and the saving of the service of the troops constantly traversing the seas on the way to and from those colonies, we might effect a reduction in our army of 20,000 bayonets. Then, again, they should recollect that the multiplication of railways in this country, since 1835, had vastly increased the efficiency of onr military force. General Gordon had stated, before a Committee of that House, that the faci lity of communication afforded by railways enabled a battalion to do the work of a small army; for by that means troops could be conveyed from London to Manchester in nine hours—that is to say, they could be conveyed in that brief period over a distance over which they could not march in less than 17 days. Then, again, the construction of railways had greatly dimi nished the necessity for accumulating ordnance stores in different parts of the country, as those stores could be easily and rapidly conveyed from place to place. He did not wish to assume that in this country the army was to bo looked upon as a means of maintaining order, for he clung to the belief—which had been the belief of the Whig party thirty years ago—that a free and constitu tional state ought not to rely upon an army for any such purpose; but he said that in any case a bayonet at pre sent was capable of doing far more than a bayonet in the year 1835. But that was not his only reason for believing that they might safely effect a reduction in our army. He found that since the year 1835 our armed force had been largely increased in various ways. We had, for instance, 14,800 pensioners prepared for military service; we, bad 9,200 dockyard men enrolled in bat talions and regularly drilled, and we had 3,000 county constabulary. Then they had an increase of more than 26,000 armed men, and there had besides been a large increase of the constabulary in Ireland. Now let them look at the case of Ireland. The unhappy state of that country had always been made an excuse for keeping up a large army. But Ireland was at present tranquil. It was proposed •that they should pass a measure for giving to Ireland a better repre sentative system, and he believed that such a measure would do more than the presence of a dozen regi ments in that country to keep the peace there. Ireland was about to be brought within a short day's journey of London. and he thought it need not be treated in any respect for the future as a conquered province.—(Hear, hear.) There were at present in Ireland 25,000 regular troops; there was an increase of 5,000 in the Irish con stabulary; and there were more than 5,000 available pensioners; so that there were altogether in that country between 35,000 and 36,000 armed men. He believed that was double the amount of the armed fore in Ireland in the year 1833. He said, therefore, that the army in that country might be very much reduced. He believed that our army generally might not only be reduced, but that considerable economy might be practised in its or ganisation. He would venture to say that the organisa tion of our army was the most expensive in Europe. and was maintained more especially for officers.—(Hear, hear.) He found that a reduction had been effected in the number of our rank and file, but he did not find that a corresponding reduction bad been effected in the num ber of our officers' A reduction to the amount of 1,800 men was at present announced; but in that instance also he saw no indication of a corresponding reduction in the numbers sf the superior grades of our army. In our cavalry regiments especially he thought that a more eco nomical organization could be effected. He had shown to an Austrian general officer, who had taken a distinguished part in the Hungarian war, a list of the men and officers in our cavalry regiments, and on seeing it, that general officer had laughed outright. He had stated to him (Mr. Cobden) the number of officers in the cavilry regiments of Austria as compared with the number in the cavalry regiments of this country; and the result of that statement was, that in the Austrian cavalry regi ments there was one officer to 28 men, while in the English Guards there was one officer to 11 men; and in our cavalry regiments of the line there was one officer to 12 men; so that ono English cavalry regirant had 20 per cent. more officers than two Austrian cavalry regiments.—(Hear, hear.) He should advise her Ma. for were e d b y only the jty the ea's purpose Ministers of t taking n alter g a w t h a a y t a sj ia , sa t ernigum if en i tt Liverpool Financial Reform Association, whore they alleged that our army was kept up for the purpose of providing situations for our aristocracy. Let them recollect that while they diminished the number of their men, and yet retained their officers, they would part with their most effective force, and preserve only them a state maintaining of our navy w ith th a t o f that which was most expensive. He should pass to a consideration of the state of our navy. That navy had been immenseloi)n9.i9n,g increased oooi since year f had been increased t /. t o 6,942,0001. the t s l h i B n e 3 c y s e that the compared year from 4 t , costof a the United States, they would find that while that coun try had only one line-of-battle ship at sea, and had a number of smaller vessels, which were the best fitted for acting as a police force for merchant ships, we kept at sea a number of enormous line-of-battle ships, which were no more fitted for acting as a police force on the ocean, than a military force with a park of artillery would be fitted for pursuing pickpockets in the streets and alleys of London.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He feared that our. Government had only kept up those enormous vessels in order to find preferment for the members of our higher classes. There was one great reason why they should reduce our navy at present, and which reason did not exist in the year 1835. Since that year there had been constructed in this country a vast number of mercantile steam•vessels which might, if ne cessary, be employed for the national defence; and in that way our means of meeting any dangerous emer gency bad been greatly increased. It had been ascer tained by a Committee of that House last year that we had 180 mercantile steam-vessels of 400 tons, and 35 mercantile steam-vessels of more than 1,000 tons, each of •which could be made available for warlike purpose in the course - of six or eight weeks. He saw, therefore, in the present state of the naval resources of this country , ample reasons why we should diminish our naval esta blishment ; and he should add that he certainly did not think that our fleet was at present doing us any use or any credit.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think there would be any great cause for regret if those Government line-of-battle ships at present in the Pirseus were laid up in ordinary, or on the stocks. He thought we would do well 'to imitate the policy of the United States, which maintained a small naval force in commission, but which from the resources and prosperity of her inhabitants—a prosperity which was, in a great measure, owing to the lightness of her taxation—were known to be formidable, and were consequently respected by other powers. Mo ney formed the sinews of war, and a wealthy and flourishing country like the United States, without great armaments might be more formidable than countries like France or Austria, encumbered with bayonets, but pos sessing only empty exchequers. But let it be remem bered that he was not advocating disarmament ; ho only wished that our naval and military forces should be re duced to an amount which would enable us to maintain them for 10,000,000/. instead of 15,000,0001., the sum expended on them last year. Then, again, there was the ordnance department. Ho believed that, oven in the service as well as among the public, a belief prevailed that the arrangements in that department might be ma terially improved. It had been ascertained by a Com mittee, of which he h a d b ee n a member, that 15 per cent - . might be saved in the cost of our ordnance stores, with out any diminution in the efficiency of that branch of the public service. Then, again, he believed that valuable reforms might be effected in the arrangements with re spect to our artillery, our sappers and miners, and engi neers. He had been told by a high military authority that a very great saving might be effected if a large number of our artillery corps were stationed in such places as Malta and Gibraltar, where they could bo very 'usefully employed, and where troops of the line were at present kept on a space too limited to allow of their going • through the manamvers which would ensure to them the highest amount of discipline. He proposed that the cost of our armaments should be fixed at 10,000,000/. a year. Now, let it be remembered that that was. nearly twice as much as the whole expense of the Government of the United States before the Mexican war, and that it was more than the whole expense of 'the Prussian Government. Would any body tell him that, under these circtimstanoes, he was . proposing to dismantle our chips, and t r leave our ports delencele3s? He asked Hon. Gentlemen to put alongside of the danger of having only 10,000,0001. to pay for our miiitary ests.blishmente—if there would be any danger in such a proceeding—he asked them to put alongside of it the danger of leaving their taxation in the state in which it was rt preeent placed. lle curl - ±0355(1 ho was not one of those who theught thee thei country was lightly taxer!. Ile believed seine gentlemeu in the City had lately written a p2 , l2phlet for the pur pose of showing that this country wits lightly taxed; and the mode iu which that gentleman had attempted to establish his position was by comparing our present expenditure with our expenditure during the last three years of the war, and, next, by comparing our ex penditure with that of some of the countries on the Continent. Now, it might be true that we were not more heavily taxed in proportion to our wealth than we had formerly been. But what he contended was, that our wealth did not pay our taxation,—(Hear, hear.) Ho believed that if wealth bore its proportionate share of taxation in this country they would not have rich men in the City writing pamphlets to show that we were lightly taxed.—(Hear, hear.) Why, 35,000,000/. cr 36,000,0001. a year were 7 aised in this country upon articles of consumption. For his part he believed that many years could not pass without an alteration, or an abolition of many of our taxes—of those taxes which pressed on the industry, manufacturing or agricultural, of the country. They had at present a surplus of 2,000,0001., and it was said that they ought to apply that surplus towards the payment of a portion of the national debt. Now, he was a decided advocate for paying the national debt—far paying either the principal or the in terest of that debt; but it appeared to him that a sum (.1 2.000,0001. was but a poor beginning for the payment cf a debt of 800,000,0001. He did not think that they ought to pay off the debt contracted of late years any more than the debt of a former period ; and indeed he looked upon it as a debt far less ob• jectionable in its origin. Tho Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had in the year 1842 commenced a now financial system in this country by relaxing the bonds upon industry and giving free scope to trade and commerce. The Right lion. Baronet had imposed an income-tax; and ho (Mr. Cobden) hoped that they would never part with it. although he was anxious to see its pressure differently distributed. But the financial policy of the Right Hon. Baronet in the year 1842 had formed a new era in the history of this country—(Hear, hear) — and the present Government would not surely forfeit the credit they might obtain by following up the policy of the Right Hon. Baronet. The Government would be so pressed by those who were suffering impediments to in dustry by indirect taxation, that they would be compel led to part with their surplus of only 2,000,0001. to satisfy those who were clamorous for a remission of taxes, not because they took so much money from their pockets, but because they were found to interfere with the progress of business, whether in paper-making, in printing, or anything else. He therefore submitted that any Go vernment which might be in power must contemplate a much larger surplus than 2,000,000/.—(Hear, hear.) How was it possible, save by the plan which he had proposed, to reduce the taxation, unless altering the sys tem altogether, or increasing the income-tax to 10 per cent.? That the Government would not do he knew; but they could do what he proposed, if the House would only help him to press it on them. They could reduce the taxation to the standard of 1835. That would give a surplus which would make the present surplus a grow ing surplus, relieve industry to the amount of 10,000,000/., and afford the means of accomplishing something important. Divide it in two. With half they might convert some part of the debt into terminable annuities, and with the other relieve the industry of the people by taking the taxes off paper, malt, hops, and other articles. Without one of those two courses how could they do anything more than child's play? He should, therefore, put it before the House whe ther there was not less danger in trusting t) their own good intentions and to Divine Providence, than in 10,000,0001. expended annually in arma ments? Was it not better to trust to these elements of security, and have it in their power to relieve the country from taxation, and give contentment to the eople in the way which he had proposed? It was to enable them to take that course that he wished the House to pass this resolution, which was no vote of want of confidence, but rather a vote of confidence. There was a power in this country which resisted im provement—a power which did not appear in that House, but worked by covert means, and required the counteraction of that House. He asked them , then, if they regarded the interests of those who sent them there, not to regard this as a party question, and not to go out on the opposite lobby because it was ho who had brought it forward; but to vote bona fide on its merits in favour of the motion. The Hon. Member concluded, amidst loud cheers, by moving—" On going into Committee of Supply, that the net expenditure of the Government for the year 1835 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 260, 1847), amounted to 44,422,0001. ; that the net ex penditure for the year ended the sth day of January, 1860 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 1, 1850), amounted to 50,853,0001.; the increase of upwards of 6,000,0001. having been caused principally by successive augmenta tions of our warlike establishments and outlays for defen sive armaments. That no foreign danger, orneceasary cost of the civil Government, or indi s p ensa bl e disbursements for the services in our dependencies abroad, warrant. the continuance of this increase of expenditure. That the taxes required to meet the present expenditure im pede the operations of agriculture and manufactures, and diminish the funds for the employment of labour in all branches of productive industry, thereby tending to produce pauperism and crime, and adding to the local and general burdens of the people. That, to diminish these evils, it is expedient that this House take steps to reduce the annual expenditure, with all practicable speed, to an amount not exceeding the sum which, within the last fifteen years, has been proved to be sufficient for the maintenance of the security, honour, and dignity of the nation." Mr. LABOUCHERE heartily concurred with the Hon. Member for the West Riding in calling upon the House to view this question in no party spirit, but to deal with it solely with reLrence to its merits. had the Honourable Member confined himself on this occasion, before the estimates were considered, in laying before the House his own views upon the great v a ri e ty o f topics on which he had touched, he should have been far from asserting that ho had not taken a useful course, for the House could not do otherwise than profit by the intelligence and research which the Hon. Member was able to bring to bear upon any sub ject to which he addressed himself. But the Hon. Member bad gone far beyond that. He had asked the House to agree to a specific resolution, which it would be his duty earnestly to urge the impropriety of acced ing to. He trusted he should be able to show the House that unless they intended to affirm a proposition in direct contradiction to facts which could be proved, and make a pledge of a most impolitic description, which it might be impossible to redeem with safety, and impossible to retreat from with consistency and honour, it wag their duty to their country, and their duty to those principles of economy which he admitted ought to be foremost in their minds, to reject the proposal of the Hon. Member. The motion was a repetition of that which the Hon. Member made last year. He again pledged the House to revert to the expenditure of 1835, and again ascribe , I the increase which bad taken place in the expenditure of this year, as com pared with 1835, to successive augmentations in our warlike establishments:. He would endeavour to show, in the first place, that the statement was incorrect and that the pledge would be highly impolitic. There was one difference between his motion this year and that of last year, to which the Hon. Member did not make oven a passing allusion. It was the only difference, but a most important one. This year he stated the differ ence in the expenditure of the two periods between which he instituted the comparison to be six millions; last year ho stated it to be ten millions—(Hear, hear) — and yet, notwithstanding this, his Hon. Friend still wont on using the words " successive augmentations," and asked the House to apply the same terms, he himself confessing to a difference of not less than four millions between this year and last.--(Hear.) He could only say he heartily hoped if his Hon. Friend renewed his motion year after year, he would, year after year, have to alter that particular part of his motion. On this oe. casion he could not help thinking that the statement of his Hon. Friend refuted the terms of his motion. It was incorrect to say that the difference of upwards of six millions between this year and 1835 was caused prin cipally by successive augmentations for warlike establishments and outlays on expensive arma ments. He could show the House that when 1 they came to sift these accounts and examine the real increase, the increase would be found not to exceed 2,365,0001. in round numbers. He held in his hand a comparative statement of the expenditure in 1835 and 1849. He found the expenses of the debt 28,500,0001. in 1835, and in 1849 28,323,0001., in round numbers, showing a decrease on this head. The charges on the Consolidated Fund showed an increase of 1,712,0001.; army, 142,0001.; navy, 2,800,0001.; ordnance, 1,180,0001.; miscellaneous services, 1,766,0001.; showing a total in crease of about 6,400,0001.; of this a considerable propor tion appeared under the head of army, navy, and ordnance --namely, 4,166,0001. But in order to form a just com parison between the expenditure of the two years, allow ances must be made in consequence of the different moth of making up the accounts, the excess in the rates not being now, as formerly, applicable to the different ser vices. This made a difference of 642,0001. Then, again. the sum formerly received in aid from the sale of old stores was now paid into the Exchequer. This, in 1849, amounted to 421,000/. Then, again, tbe Post office packet service, part of the expenses of which , was formerly defrayed by the Post-office department, formed part of the naval estimates of 1849 , amount ing ing in round numbers to 737,0004 If the Hous e would add these figures together, they would find j the real increase in our warlike establishments in 1849, as compared with 1835, only 2,365,0001. He next pro ceeded to deal with the allegation put forth by the Lion Member, that the increase in our expenditure had boon successive.—(Hear, hear.) He should bo able to show that this statement was not consistent with fact. In point of fict, since 1848, instead of there being a suc cessive augmentation, there had been a successive de crease in our expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) In the early part of the period, since the year 1835, there was, no doubt, an increase, but since 1848 there had been a successive diminution. These were the reductions made in the expenditure of the army, navy, and ord nance, as stated last year by his Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose ad sence he deeply deplored, and whose place he felt so inadequate to supply on an occasion like this. His Right Honourable Friend then stated that last year the reduction in the navy, as compared with the preceding 3 ear, 1848, was 730,000/ ; army, 378,0001; ordnance, 337,0001. in round numbers, showing altogether a dimi nution of 1,447,0001. It was to be observed also that the estimates on the table showed a reduction in these three departments, over and above those of last year, of, on the navy, 424,0004—in which there would have been a still further reduction of 100,0001. but for the payment of head-money for the captures of pirates, and th; a would Lase shown a reduction of se ere than 50),0001 ; on the army, 120,0001; and on the, ordnance, 198,000/, in round numbers. With respect to the army the expendi tire had been ,uccessive!y diminished r ithin the lest three years. lie 1,,1d in his hand an accennt of the number a Of is ei in t!o Army for the lett live years. which sleeved that in 1810 the nun her svee 100,000; in 1817, 108,900 ; in 1818, 113 ; 000; in L'' , l9, 103,000; and in the present a-ocr, 99,000, in round nuns hers.— (Hear, hear.) These facts proved to de:eenetra lion that instead of our naval and military establishments being in a state of sueeessiee augmentation, they had succeeded in placing them within the last three years in a course of successive diminution. Since 1818 the de crease in the et&ctiva service had been no less than 14,700 men in round numbers. In connexion with this subject, he would advert to a point which Lad de servedly attracted attention of late years to the navy estimates—namely the objectionable practice which bad prevailed of having more men borne than were actually voted. This practice had now been entirely discon tinued, aed in the present year there was not a tingle man borne on the naval force who had not been voted by the house. The number of seamen and marines borne this year were 549 less than were voted; and this was the first year for several years past in which it had been found practicable to carry this desirable object into effect. But while be corrected a misconception into which his Hon. Friend seemed to have fallen on these points, it could not be denied that of late years there had been a very considerable increase in the naval and military expenditure, and the attention of the House had frequently been called to its real causes. In the first place, it was caused by works of defence of we at magni tude, which had entailed a very heavy, though tempo rary, charge on this country—such as dockyards, and works at Malta and Gibraltar. He believed those works were undertaken from n strong sense of their absolute necessity on the part of those best able to judge. Money thus spout was not wasted, but et the same time he re joiced to believe that that large source of expenditure had been greatly checked if not altogether stopped. Another great cause of this additional expenditure since 1835 had been the necessity of creating establish meats for steam-vessels; but this was a charge which, though great at first, would not continue. With respect to this, also, he rejoiced to believe that it was not likely to remain the heavy burden which it had been hitherto. The third cause of the increase in our mili tary expenditure, to which he would ptesently more par ticularly allude, was the necessity of affording protection to our colonial possessions, which had so much increased since 1835. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tumworth on the budget of 1845 went fully into that subject, and detailed to the House the reasons which, in his opinion, justified that increase of military expendi ture. The gross increase in the civil expenditure from 1835 to 1849 still remained to be accounted for. He had already stated that only the smaller half of the 6,000,000/, was justly attributable to the military expen diture, and he now proceeded to call the attention of the House to the causes which had swelled the civil expen diture during that period. The charges on the Consoli dated Fund bad been increased by 712,0001, and the mis celieneous estimate, for civil services by 1,766,0001. in round numbers making together a total of 2,478,0001.—a larger sum than the real increase in the naval and mili tary expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) This increaseed ex penditure for civil purposes might be classed under three general heads : those charges which, in a great measure, had at various times and for various purposes been forced on the Govern ment by that House—(Hear)—acted upon, doubtless, by the demands and opinions of the various con stituencies; next, the charges rendered necessary by un foreseen calamities; and,' thirdly, charges now defrayed by a vote, which were formerly provided for from other sources. Under the first head he would class harbours of refuge, which had been forced on the Government, forming a new charge of 141,0001.; payments in aid of county rates, 148,0001; expenses connected with the poor-law, 198,0001.; Parliamentary and other printing, which lie quite agreed with his Hon. Friend in thinking most monstrously extravagant, but to which he feared it would be very difficult for the Government to offer any efficient check unless it received more support from the House.—(Hear, hear.) Under this head he found an expense of 82,0001. The prison and convict service showed an excess of expenditure amounting to 400,0001.; and education, including the Irish colleges, about 225,0001,; the office of Registrar-General and the Copyhold Com missioners, 71,0001.; the British Museum building and establishment, 40,0001. He now took the second class, that caused by unforeseen calamities, and first among these he would take the burning of the old Houses of Parliament, which be confessed had led to another un foreseen calamity—namely, the great expense of the new Houser. Under this head there was an expenditure of 45,0001. The distress in Ireland entailed an expendi ture of 163,0001. The third class embraced those ex penses which were now provided for by a vote of the House, and formerly were furnished from other sources. There were the fees of the House of Commons and the Government offices, for in stance, which were brought in aid of the estimate in 1835, but were now paid into the Consolidated Fund, making a difference of 100,000/. In the Postage there sal a difference consequent upon the abolition of franking of 44,0001.; in the constabulary of Ireland an increase of 570,0001.; the expense of the police in London and Dublin, an increase of 40,000/.; consular establishments in China and other parts of the world, 53,0001. Ile had thus shown that those statements which his Honour able Friend invited the House to concur with him in making, that the increase of the expenditure since 1835 was mainly owing to the increase in our military estab lishments, were incorrect. He now proceeded to what ap peared to him a still more important branch of the motion I —namely, the pledge which be called on the House to I make, that they would speedily revert to the scale of expenditure of 1835, having especial reference to the naval and military txpenditure. The Hon. Member had laboured much to prove that, in reality, they would do no more by adopting his resolution than to say—" We have every desire to revert to that scale; we do not mean to do it in two or three years; all we mean to say is, if circumstances are altogether unaltered, and no new occurrence takes place, we have every desire to revert to that scale." lie held such a proceeding to be altogether unparliamentary and unprece dented. Ho should be as glad as his Honourable Friend to see the House able to reduce the burdens of the country and the military establishments to the same scale as that of 1835; but he should not deal frankly with the House or the country it he expressed any san guine hope as to the practicability of such a reduction. H i e was, ther e f o r e , unw illi ng t o co ncur n giving a p.edgo Which ho might b e una bl e t o re deem. But it was by no means correct to say that the proposition of the Hon. Member was to reduce the naval and military expendi ture to the level of 1835. His proposal was in truth to reduce it much below that mark, unless he proposed to compel Ireland to bear the whole burden of her consta bulary again, and revoked the grants for education and other purposes which had been made since that time. In point of fact, the House would find that has proposal was to reduce the naval and military expenditure by no less than 1,300,000/. below the scale of 1835. His Hon. Friend had told him of his conversations with a Hunga rian general, and how he laughed at our skeleton regi ments with so many officers, and compared ours with the Austrian system. Now he suspected the Hungarian general laughed not because there were so many officers, but because there were so few soldiers.—(Hear, hear.) The truth was, ours eras a system based unreal economy, and was so formed as to maintain the army on the smallest possible scale compatible with the means of ex tending it as emergencies might arise. —(Hear, hear.) It was all very well for the Hungarian general to talk in this way, but what was the Au s t r i an as compared with the English army? It amounted to considerably more than 400,000 men.—(Hear.) His Hon. Friend had told them that the tree policy of this country was not to have enormous naval and military establishrnente, hut to preserve a well filled exchequer, and a contented and prosperous people. In that he agreed with him, but some observations made by his lion. Friend in the course of his speech convinced him that his Hon. Friend would agree with him in saying that this was all a gees don of degree, because his lion. Friend was no more for turning off our soldiers and laying up our ships than he was. The qu es ti on wa s, wer e , our nava l and military es tablishments excessive? Ho contended they were not. Depend upon it the true economy was to maintain them in an effective state, and so as to be capable of ex pansion at any time. His Hon. Friend wished the House o make a Ileclaration to this country and the colonies that henceforth a change of system must be adopted, and that we should withdraw our military protection from the dependencies of the British empire. Now ho did not deny that it was the duty of the Government to watch nar rowly this branch of the national expenditure, and em brace every fit and suitable opportunity of keeping it within due limits, and reducing it, if possible, within still smaller bounds, nor had the Government neglected this duty. As a general principle he thought that in all which related to matters of internal police the colonies might be fairly expected to bear the expense. With re gard to Imperial interests, it was the practice in former times, before the French revolutionary war, for the co lonies of this country to bear, not the whole, but a share of the burdens of the mother country in providing the moans of Imperial defence. He was not prepared to say that prudently, cautiously, and considerately, that prin ciple might not b e aga i n carr i ed i n our dealings with our colonies to a grea t er d egree t h an at present . N o thing, however, was mor e t o b e d e p reca t e d t h an a h as ty and in considerate affirmation of principles which, when carried out to the Briti s h co l on i es , wou ld on ly se r v e to stimulate the efforts and assist the machinations of the disaffected. He was not surpri se d th a t his Honourable Friend should have touched on the subject of the colonies, for no doubt on questions!of military establishments it was impossible not to take them in account. He said " mi litary establishments," because be thought the colouies of this country, scattered over the whole world, were the moans of employing a smaller number of chips tbaa she would be compelled to do without them. There was no doubt, however, that this military expen diture—the cost of paying troops, barracks, ordnance, and transport—which formed so large a proportion of the dead weight of the army, it was attrib u t a bl e to the colonial service. He admitted was desirable and eradicable gradually to reduce this branch of expendi ture, hut he earnestly deprecated precipitate measures. The circumstances of our colonies were widely different. Putting out of the question Malta and Gitealtar, and confining his observations to those which might be strictly called colonies—he would begin with Australia. That colony was not exposed to any foreign attack, or danger from the aboriginal inhabitants; and, except in one particular part, was perfectly able to protect itself against evils consequent upon being brought in contact with a convict population. The circumstances of Canada were altogether different, with a large extent of foreign frontier; and so we re th ose o f Now Zealand, with a large aboriginal population, causing constant alarm and danger to the European settlers. It would be impossible to treat these in the same manner; but opportunities would be taken as they arose, to invite the colonists to take those charges upon themselves. But reductions - bad been going on at the Cape; he found, thorn ware 5,365 troops, and, on the Ist January: 18 av o t. 4.108. fie believed, too, that, under the auspices at his Noble Friend at tho head of the Colouial-office, Caffre police had been formed, which would still furthe! reduce this expense. In Canada, on the Ist April, le3hiu, 0 ere were 6,400 troops; now, 4,300. Here, agairh t system to which he lied referred had been citified eioi in April, 18t7, not harshly or unjustly, but tail' with advantage to de country. The barracks at Montreal were found unte.el-0 a'aile, and it was the re f o r e determined to remove ti troops to another place. The inhabitants, however., were anxious that they should remain, and it was ther ef fore thought fair th a t th e y s hould be at the expeme war new barracks for th em , which cost 30,0 001 . , and paid 1 . , r by the local government. In Austr alia the troops had also been considerably reduced, and the ' c h at legislature had been called on to take the charge of the barrack establishments everywhere in the Australian .e: colonies except Van Di em en's Land, where, in c one quence of the large nu m b er o f convicts, it was t hou s that the maintenance of the troops must be I-L garded as an Imperial charge. His Honourable Friend had called attention to America, and said, k C ° O , part : how she maintains her commerce in every tho world with so few ships. He (Mr. Laboucherets was no advocate for maintaining a large ile e f t , h t : is neceseary to support the commercial interests et country, and he believed our present system cf moderate fleet, with our dockyards in a state to increa i ; that fleet to the requi s it e force at any moment, w as , wisest policy. Ho cou ld no t quire admit that Ellgla n s '; who owed her min au minty to her ire position. shou ld b i e r completely defenceless i n thi s res p e ct as to be luta" d _ ° equip a fleet of eight or ten v esse ls, as way, he kal e ' wished. Ile did . look at A mer i ca , but he WO ce)m ., pellet] to look to other quarter s lik e wise. He was haPP. 7 O to believe that we enjoyed at the present momentand most peaceful relations with all the great ra ilitary wa s lib , naval nations in the world, an d that there probability of the peace, which has lasted so foal years, being disturbed. B u t on th e other hand, vvb.o he looked at the grea t fl ee ts which 11 1 ,, and France could s en d f or th at a r u°l33e t li his warning, he could not consent to deprive as country of the power of equ ippi n g such a ILE '', o f would be the best guarantee for the mainte nanc e peace. peace. He believed that during th e eventful Peron of the last three years, wh en intestine wars a nd .1 vulsions were rife jthr o u g h ou t E uro p e , the trangt il a d l which this country e njoy e d a t h ome , an d respect sate were owing to the knowl e d ge th a t s he was readlolt .. any moment to support her interests and her holT eo He believed the people of E ng l an d wou ld find their "o safeguard in a loyal and attached people, relying eh . n e, ancient institutions, with naval and military not large, but respectable—he believed that girth they would have not only a barrier and safeguard --- ad would ensure to themselves the means of etabilitY s op tranquillity. He met the Honourable Gentlemen t "P h o that point at once. He would remind the 110 050 they were not far from the Black Sea or the la r et They were surrounded by powerful nations with f lea s resources, who had great resources for equiPPl.eg,..i o e (- d and sending out armies.—( Hear, hear.) He mau l "; no r then, that it was not the true policy of that countrY g o true economy, to annihilate their means of defence. owe had now disposed of the main purpose of the resole c., instituttoloh —namely, that portion of it which asserted that the Pyres gressive increase of the expenditure since 183d aaarf mainly owing to the incre ase i n t h e nava l a nd al" - ie establishments of the country. The Hon. Gentlernsa the vited them to take a p:edge that they should reduc e 35 i , expenditure of the cou n t r y w i t hi n t h e li m its of to n The other resolutions h o l oo k e d upon as merely ° a t e Tories of the maiu question. Ile did not dislnl te l od principle, thet the taxies levied on the people of -V t g r - 4, " Impede the operations of agriculture and menden; eia and diminish the funds for the employment of bdl t r bet all branches of productive industry." lie adMitt e eu t hey taxes are very bad things—(llear, hear)—and od could be done without, no doubt it would be a very",B ° 49 thing; but when the year 1835 was compared w il t! ; i ges and 1850, they must admit that most important 0 0 7 w had been made in the taxation, which could not fai l t- o e beneficial to the industry of the country. The refillsl3ey of taxation that had taken place had not brought into the Treasury; but there was no doubt it h ad fe jett tonally relieved the ind us t r y an d s ti mu l ate d the erabe of the people. He h e ld i u hand a docement Tr" : `' h be had not received fro m the vote - o ffi ce, b u t would recommend to the study of Hon. Membe ri j o nte Was a map published by the Hon. Member for 13e c r ee t in which, by various liner, he showed the ceni ve , - , of industry, and revenue of the country for a web er of years. The price of corn and consols for a nualue'rib years was described by rising and falling dese oa d ing figures, like the Andes or Antilles, i n e errated ao angular lines.—(Loud l aug h ter .) There were p ea t features in that map that h e h a d o b serve d with " satisfaction. When he looked at the line of elP s e ra diture he found that in 1813 and succeetiq Yb e een it was at a tremendous height, but it bad T r. 0 1 4 gradually and regularly de c li n i ng s i nce then, " 1- (A quite trite it had been creepi ng u p s i n ce 153;,c '' --atid laugh)—but then cam e th e t urn i ng point of 184°10l. he was glad to Fee the lin e t a k e a turn again dow ew f t he There were other lines indi cat i ng th e p ros perity ° l el% trade and commerce of the country; and rene g es the those great sources of the wea l t h an d we ll-being : ' - d the country had been steadily in creas i ng; an d he det'v-ditail' greatest satiefection from seeing :hat, with the f a t e Dished expenditure, the tr a d e an d com merce e ,„, t he country was increasing. He wou ld ne t e nter int'vo t i question of whether they were more or less taxe d o ber other countries, and he ag r ee d w ith t h e Hon , e t bet that it was the duty of th e H ouse to ta k e ca re tha'" t o ol did not pay more t axes th an were absolutely b ee o es the for the maintenanc e o f th e h onour and interests le0" country, hut he denied that the economy of a gr e ''oe pire like England was to be measured by fi ner? " a nd It should be without waste or extravagance,- but it s i - t e bo be such as was suited to the wants and wishes e :er' country. He was meat anxious to see that IRO' 'the revere in their laudable design of reduc ing ge e expenditure, and he could as:sure them that her i t heir jesty's Government wo u ld b o most anx i ous t o sec oll " e " r ent efforts. He hoped, how ever , th ey wou ld no t be soig a j oi o• of the nature of their trust as to seek a fleeting 1113 00 mantary popularity at the ex p ense o f t h e secret' e la nd. they owed to the So ve r e i gn an d t h e peop l e of 'Bag Oil There was one point more he wished to rtfer to; dies Hoe. Gentleman had referred to the amountof thei s l did salariea which he seemed to consider excessive• omy not deny that in their judicial establishments eeThelit might not be pushed further; but when the Il ee n ' ct tleman talked of America ho would again remind - „" te iest, the difference in the circumstances of the two cet t- a d There was nothing England was more justly P r i c ipar , than the character and conduct of herjudges. - ;,` n rice , hear.) It could not be estimated by any inonP,J,-,`f the the value they were of in conciliating the goodarlh' ;Our' people and maintaining respect for the laws slid : e d al 3 d Lions of the country. I t was, then, most abst, l ` ol era paltry economy t o measure their services ley tee' money value. He (Mr. Labouchere) had hce°;:h the United States, a n d h a d b een muc h d e li g hted w` progress of th a t great peop l e i n prosper ity, but h .-0 li e not an indiscriminate admirer of everything th e L • g lail believed that th e judicial establishments Of "Vniteu were infinitely better. The Chief Justice in the s} men States received 1,200/. a y ear , b u t what %vas the -" W e° pursued there? They did not think that foJ c t hel after sixty years of age was fi t t o b e a j u dge, e a f Mr• pensioned him off. Why, there was the ese :ter he Emm ohoett, ho hal been a jude,e3 there, an d a t ' to the had been pension e d o ff, l ie was o bli ge d t o go ba';` bar, at which he was i n th e fi rs t p rac ti s e, ear°ll e s( l- than he had received as a judge.—(clear, bear.) eos ett mitted as much as any one the importance and ;O il ed° of economy, and therefor e i t was no t u pon these g that he oppe,el the motion of the lion. Gentiansl:toe to lieving that the resolutions which he tasked the 1.11- ' O / the affirm were plainly inconsistent with the interests bero to country—believing that the pledges he wishe d j be fore make were imprudent and improper • sad, as peal' said, believing that they mi g ht b e placed in such t t ees° tion that they would be unable to carry °,,, t1 flo e re' pledges, which, on the other hand, they couwited the treat from with consistency or honour- -- h e 5 4 ,1 6 ober: House to negative them. H e hoped lion' - by would not be deterred from voting against thet a e 3 b 1 feeling that their conduct would be Inisconatr;is de sirous of economy, their constituents. Although the Government ,% - f th e mere appearance of it, unless they saw it Pierce boned practical and substantial shape before them. ` I dera non they would not be rnisleued in f; the House would proceed unpledged to the eon s ' b y the of the estimates which would be laid before them they different members of the Government to he, 00'; were entrusted. Let theta oppose them if tdceiv e° dered it necessary, and support them if ° le l theta S° u pon of reo lu; • them right and proper; and ho called take that course rather than affirm a series eee caus e t tions which they would unqu es tionably e regret. ; „„d tha t Mr. SPOONER said if he was o nv ' --- sol u 'relo giving his support, as he intended, to thes e f r n e t ere„ - rn e he should consider himself pledged to W ife - elf° Itot that would have the effect of reducing the e t bete' ve to of the army or navy he would not vote f ° Cial he saw nothin g w h a t ever i n th em to bind P oo effect l ae fur any mot i on h erea f ter t h at wou ld retitl e( ' eats' strength of their n ava l an d m ilit ar y establish • wt thon t , . 00 t thought there was ample room for reductthe though touching anythi ng that was effective. I f o cairPl e : e that by so d o i ng h e should bo in:dieting t", e , fl e d to, America, which had been so elaborately flue" - biro L'" A u e would not support them. Nothing would i n n e ly 1, 2 % a vote that the Chief Justice should receive (:)-t deny per annum. But at the same time be could o °_ t o he ft' 0 lt propositions contained in theie resolutions,. court that in voting for them he was about to take !s horn !s hoal_ different from that of t'ae Her. Gentleman /_;'` bo the ho usually voted, and whose opinions I % h s hoe' highest respect for. The first resolution, Di IT heir thet large increase that. had taken place w` heir th diture, had not hake contradicted, and it stated the increase had been caueed principallY h) t r _ b ao - d Ott e " augmentations of our warlike establish men ' , „ ,13 0,100a bye fir defensive armaments. The . 1.1 . 0 n ., , aaa ose seell did not say that the increase had been entire ~ e veti ea , l e e them; it was aeon uestion of dtgree, and h; r o___ ll o oe. 1 formed a very siderable part of that nod ci . ' e f,., u ce Right Honourable Gentlecaan had made e at i'Lir" - ' • the salary of 10,0001. a year to our auebacsae to suei b ..... e. and many other extravaigent He resolutioa which he could not refuse his at eXP enal " That, the taxes required to meet the presen t ttroan fsa't Lure impede the operittions of agricultureemnptlchmeot tures, mid diminish the funds for the n _tritrly:!thereht7 tier' people. 1 labour tai branches of productive 1 d ant , _ Adju g tending to produce paeperisan and crime, _ lt," e coa ti ent to the res ol e tot le Con he denied the truth of tile proposimi a hr ' setica b I d o e e n a y l that, n d g a e resolution pledged them to return assoh, h i . & n ave:lo and d era u t tb,otur•detr•nu3seodt his ms.cop. nibe ne to the expenditure of 1835. The Right, PreeiPittl construed that into an immediate, a asty h _ est Riding be e return, but the Hon. Member for the W had t respect. uul had been particularly guarde d in th at o us t pointed out to them the scale of expetuw