The Sun. — London, England, 1850-02-19 00:00:00

(or Tel to Vustiff a deviation fern the usual typ e o f co lonial go rnments. The opinion of the coloortts of rely South Wales was to be sooHot in the resolutions passed at pt blic meetin gs , i n the acts of the Assembly, and liT ispatches of the Governor. With regard to the resolu tions passed et public meetiogr, he he:leved it tires in the loiddle of 1847 that L , rd Grey first communicated, in a ( L l f i t P h a a T t cl e T . , ol h o i r s i), ? . roposi t i on for remodelling the constitution an That scheme !not with . great oepc;si . iion, !eel exeite•d ranch discontent. It ceet a:tied a proposition To divide the legislative body into two chambers, but it ' 4 ''att not agai nst t h at part of the scheme that the indig• o r ation of th e co l on i sts was raised. It wns to that por yen of it which proposed to deprive the colonists of the franchise they then enjo •Y ed, and reduce them to the con dition mere primary electors —to elect the district c ouncils, by whom again the representatives of the Le tleative Council were to be nominated.—(Hear, hear.) es •!Y Petition, indeed, from the colony, with one ex thq'tt re complained of the attempt made to deprive was th e their elective franchise.-(Bear, hear.) It this W i l t s h t t tease with the people, how did the matter stand Legislative Council ? No sooner did the Le gislative Cou nc il meet after Lord Grey ' s dispatch ar 'l el, than they resolved themselves into a Committee he whole House. and by a small majority ndopt:d, Zitlr considerable discussion, a resolution to this effect:— That this Council is disposed to view fivourably the „ Pr° P°'ition fur separating the deliberations of the nomi -th'es of the Crown from those of the representatives of w.e P e ople."—(flear, hear.) The Executive Council !Fe unanimously in favour of division of the logic isrelve body, end with respect to the Governors both of et s' South Wales and Van Diernerile Lande they dr ea,led themselves in favour of a separation of the two .' l ‘-'s• He therefiro could not find in Australia any id r" of opi n i on a d verse to the proposition for di ""un4 the thou Legislat ure i n t o two chwnhers ; and, as he soq thought such a li ne o f po li cy cou ld b e supporte d b y rea ef as well as experience, and as ho could find uo form ~governrnent that would to better fitted for the levle ( 1 ) . ! Australia, he considered it desirable that the Are auth yorit should be shared by the two bodies. Vie w WZA equally applicable to the structuro of the tho n i e n r t at Assembly. The federal union should represent interests of the inh a bit an t s o f tho se s t a tes as individuals. . -- n o "' et ir.) So far es the first class of interests were in one state being as independent and sovereign iu "ne other, they should have an equal representation torsi- th Assembly; but, so far as the second class of in t was concerned, that class should have a prepon euloe in the number of representatives.—(Hear hear.) h'ccould not but think that if the link of connexion it . 1.11 i t was proposed to establish etas to be permanent, o s th ain_st 1 ,,,_ -°4l cl be necessary to place a constitutional barrier encroachments of the one state against the b, `" ( Cheers)—and that that would be best secured onoe req,eiring tne representatives of the state to sit in oillftatrileotitithrertrhel and the renresentatives of the inhabitants (Cheers.) Be believed it was the destiny th e e People of Australia to increase end spread over vast territories on which they had settled, and that ;. Y . , w ere the germ of future nations. He was firmly w e o - 4dcd that the form of their colonial government th;ts"xercise a powerful influence upon the interests, itsi:PPiness. and the prosperity of a country now in th et n pi , ey ; and Le honed that tl , .ey would stamp upon tioo; °r u ) of government the impress of the best institu- Whi c i l ond enable those colonists to moer upon the career IvSy n lay let fore them with all the advantages in the e • Cove"r'is Politieal institutions that it was in our poviMr to them.—(Chcers.) too ar `V. :+.l 0 LE SWORTti thought that if they were it e ,: 4 le r.ll diseteeeion of the details of the Bill till they lo Committre, they were entitled to ask the Noble to d • "as a !air opportunity be given to Hon. Members ap n is ellst the measure and to propose amendments. It pb r j:red to him that the Bill was not as clear and ex the'L'sa it might be made. The Bill, in laying down - b ,,' ) tle in which the government of the . coloni . es was we ," c onducted, referred to three Acts, portions of which h e : to continuo in force under tho new system. Now, th r "tild recommend the Noble Lord to repeal those hisee stetutee, and to simplify the present measure by to vrt iPT; it in those portions sf them which he wished tit:stain. Be agreed with the Right Hen. Gentleman le e , ll resident of the Board of Trade, that they ought to th e ,„'e to the Colonial Legislatures the right to frame for de machos the constitutions which they might think most tio for in that case they could adapt their institu fortis to their sense of their own wants and interests; and th s ., 4 tlY error which they might commit they would have i n ," 4 , selves only to blame. But he could not think that er r Bill then before them that principle could be fully t o . 44 3' carried into effect. For hie part, he should wish e q `, ll3 'et that the governor of each colony should within a th o t4in time convene a constituent assembly elected by _lie:ll)htliatPl° of the colony, and then delegate to that ae i ne lY the Power to frame their own constitution, limit power, at the same time, to any extent that ;v . t be found necessary. The more lie considered the tle a a t l,S of the Bill the more did ho beconso convinced tei, t ; would not give permanent satisfaction to the tee tt - 1 8 1 8 . He found that a series of resolutions had her ofa:,_° n"- Y drawn up by Mr. Low, a distinguished mem that } Assembly of New South Wales, declaring that I naasure would be acceptable or beneficial to It r e or ,.'" ° ,ny which did not shoulddg other things reee p . -I ' n 'tion that the colonists have their go re.r,,:"t administered by persons responsible to their abl)--•entatives, that the Government should be remov air?, b Y a vote of the Colonial Legislature, and that th(;ll`'lcithe elected representatives of the people there irrane thatbe as t s h ozi e ated no nominees of the Crown. It was i ssed by Mr. resolutions had not afterwards been Low, but he (Sir W. Molesworth) reason to think that they conveyed the sea st, nts of the colonists generally upon the system Pgovernment which they wished to see este ed. The Bill o f t h e N o bl o L or d , h owever, tm'Odierl none of these provisi on s, noel h e , t h ere f ore , be ,Nl that it would not be received with satisfaction by p e : inhabitants of New South Wales. Indeed he felt k l . ' 4 aaded that no measure world bo acceptable or per ehtly beneficial to them which did not deprive; he fee - ,: ell iel-office of its present arbitrary power of intr- I tti 'g in their internal affairs. He would . give an in )e ) e n n ee of the prejudicial effects cf t he existence of a p e lvr • The inhabitants of Sydney, amounting to 50,000 l et i t 3 i lte bad been anxious to remove the slaughter-house th ee e e ir City to a spot at some distance; hut on inquiry j et ha d found that they could not accomplish that ob e‘T: until after the lapse of a year, when they should re e i s o obtained the necessary consent of the head of the two Tug-office in this country. Now, there was surely Istigood reason why such consent should be required. of 10 P e ople of this country were too much in the habit it t i ° , n t it : ing on the colonists as subjects and inferiors. He tt,„ - ‘,ained, on the contrary, that the colonies were in erit;;st Portions of the British empire, inhabited by men feef o ught to enjoy in their own locality all the rights ,l t v r iri!egee which Englishmen enjoyed elsewhere. %i t% `INSTEP said that the colonists of Now South ttai s had distinctly pronounced against the scheme of Iti e - „gic' chamber composed in part of representatives of li tt esnPlo and in part of nominees of the Crown. He kiej t „ s ted on a former evenine. that the growth of a clAss in New South Wales had been. in a great to e t t -u re produced by the acts of Sir G. Arthur, who, in le4sequence of some defalcation in the Treasury, had 4 1 the public money in private banks. But he hes „, et i to take that opportunity of saying that ho bad ih te - 5 . to charge Sir G. Arthur with the mischief V'ad ensued. Patt I :', II ANGLES said that he was prepared to sup -444,1","El second reading of the Bill, because he was per iled L e g that her Majesty's Ministers in introducing it irtsii„ e ,.eu actuated by a very sincere desire to give free ' att e e - "lens to those colonies which they believed to be th at " to receive them. He could not, however, think e ata t ; t4 Q Government had chosen the best mode of 411)4'414 that desire into effect. They seemed to fel ls se that th e i n h a bitants of New South WalesWer e n PPosed to the establishment of a double eharn 4'eh .1311 t the fact was that the question had never But to the colonists, because they Lad never 4 e thin that they could obtain two elective chambers Iviti t t 7 k r Y much doubted whether they would be satisfied Ol t e nia . '" arrangement proposed in that Bill, whsn they S . ;,' have found that two chambers were to be given sei e ; n tii Africa. The people of this country fell, in his the I ll; into a serious error when they supposed that th e c,"herabers of the Upper House were the nominees of l i the; r °w l l; the fact being that the Duke of Norfolk and ( itle;Rcers, although they had originally derived their r tes-, - Warn the Crown, were at present no more its nomi '''ettb"Lln the Members of the House of Commons itself. 41 )le °lir colonies the Government officials werteremov -41:It the pl easure o f t h e C rown . Ise o .:, HUME said, he was' prepared to support the NZ' reading of the Bill, although be could not ap ked.' o f ell its provisions. 'He believed that the only A phid of inspiring confidence in any of our colonies rd l , lll e . to give them effective legislatures. The Noble et "'id maid that he wished to cheek the democracy. But eattnLhAtralia the inhabitants were all members of the ' 1 0 :- 'q f r acY and there the check of the Noble Lord would err be misplaced. He believed that if our colonies %,t EtIorl" treated there would be no reason to appre th - e l - 7 ey at they would attempt to separate from us, because j ; f ee:. ould continue bound to us by the connexion ;.414;rithl' by a feeling of self-interest, and by family i t es e e reeretted to find that it was proposed, that 'qe.findsts should not haie:thrt power of dealing with n s tioef t ' i ht of the Church. He taw no reason why they ''.7kt b . deprived of that power; and he believed that a m ?kj:ision, if it were to remain unaltered, would be- Vitskti'ittture bone of contention and a source of much that th 4lt tetion. Ho could only repeet his anxious wish „mtn t h e %11, might lease as speedily as possible, and verf o .a the Government might allow some of its un ctions. to be removed in Committee. s 'ANVE3 anticipa - ed thee this debate would give 4; b et Zi.a . factio n in the coleny . from the desire exp r ros:led en t ' W ee—whatever might bo thu difference o aps e hl r tained—to frame a measure which shoeld be opi eitttin Le te the colonists themselves. One of the main a n tae e f ns urged against it was that it eatablislic 1 a :rts n° government for the Australian colonies which t l'er e e , to that provided for the colonies in ge - st stlee an ti l nee which was not coincident with what was 14 6 . 11 tit e t) , British Constitution. There could be no th l ttee whether they took the report of the Com een Cre e ,7,, ri vY Council, the opinion of the Ministers of ti t led i n - ' of the governor of the colony—all con t_ eabo.yreferring two chambers to One.—(Cheers.) Ple en . 161 9 read° the edmission, and those who ras ed b'f'PPosite view might make what use they steel of 4 i:t. A distinct reason had been asked fir a rota what had been admitted to be the best ee• nest his h. itlae nre reply was that, wherever a representative b °RPzi t x'sted, and you proposed t make alive 0 the force t o e Ivid e tglit to be consulted in the first instance. Good government, therepresentative sloe s " ‘vould wi t , t! lat th_ be f ound in the papers laid before the th„ e,t3 e People of New South \Vales were content nt form of government, and had formally ,`'nete t e"Trlally " Wl)vrver ehaegee you `_ 1 4;,0 . t i , "2__ In the first insttio." In the case of the Itti o4 .'vfe ezisted no eiott representative con 46- ' list were they prepared, in the me of New South Wsles, at the present moment entertaining a strong opinion in favour of two chambers, to say at once that the co le.ty should have two chambers forced on them ase kat the declaration of the ialialoi- Salts? Did this B ill prevent the colony from adopting two chambers if they desired it ?—(Hear.) Certainly not, and he could Bof help thinking, from his observa tions on this point, tt ,at the lion. and Learned Member for Sheffield had ant t read the Bill. Of this there could be no doubt —a ant if they now decided on having two chambers the res alt would he to impede the progress of the measure, for it would in that case be necessary to refer to the colonies, and obtain a vast deal of prelimi nary information. it might, indeed, well be doubted whether the materit Is fur two chambers at present existed, and one Qt the speakers at the meeting to which reference ha d been made prominently expressed that doubt. For his own part, he beiieved that two chambers might exiist there, but he had no other reason for this opinion tha a that it was a thriving and intelli gent colony. If it Imre the wish of the colonists to hate two chambers, it w at, not by the nominees of the Crown that their wish &ild be thwarted, inasmuch as the governor of the colotty, the First Minister of the Crown, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Com mittee of Privy Council, were in favour of it. With respect to the Church, the Government did not propose to create anything new. The New South Wales Church Acts was iit existence, and gave general satisfaction. No doubt there were some, here nod there, who thought that no state provision should be made for religion, tut, speaking generally, the existing arrangement had bi ten a source of satisfaction in the co lony. With respect to Soutb Australia there was no such provision, and none was male by this Bill. For thee reasons he thought, notwithstanding the criecisrns which had been passod upon it, that the Bill, as it stood, would be found most acceptable to the colonies, and would work well. B , at he did not speak speculatively, for the colonial newspaper press bore testimony to the satisfaction with w'aich it was regarded,—(Hear.) Mr. V. SMITH observed that not a single voice had been raised in avowr of a single chamber; and after the speech of the Hon. II nder-Secretary, he began to doubt what they were disco ising. The debate had been con fined to a single chime on which all were agreed, or, rather, with which. all disagreed.—(llear.) As to the experience on wiaich so much stress bad been laid, what was it? An experience of seven years. And where was the popular assent ? He could see none. With respect to the fderative ques tion, he had not heard a word. What was the pretext for establitskirg such a system in Australia? No petitions had been ;ariaented in its favour, and they had neither popular sat isfaction nor experience to appeal so in this case. In the United States such a system etas intelligible for the purpose of transactions with foreign stet ?s; but how wot tid this apply to a colony ?—(Hear.) For his own part, lee had no desire to see this country become the dissemi nator of republican institutions a ll over the world. He regretted that the questions of the colonial military expenditure and the transportation of convicts had not been alluded to. With regard so the former, the colonists themselves had admitted that with representative institutions they ought to bear their own burdens—with self-government they ought to hare sell defence. With researd to the latter, when the colonies were calling out for labour, he thought it not too much to ask them to receive some of our reclaimed convict popu lation, who had no chance of living honest lives in the mother country. Mr. ADDERLET contrasted the conclusion arrived at by the Committ se of Privy Council, in their report of May, 1849, in reference to the feeling of the colony in favour of a single Chamber, with the language of a pe tition contained in dee same paper, in which the peti tioners expressed their desire that their constitution might be made as re srly as possible conformable to that of the United Kingdi an. Two courses were open to the Noble Lord the Seer etary for the Colonies—ore to give the colonists full pow er to construct a constitution; ano tiler to give them a good constitution, which they might by reform Bills adept to their own wisher. But the Noble Lord had done neither the one nor the other. Much had been said. about not altering the constitution which already existed, but had not the Noble Lord done his best to alter it? The real reason, after all, was the Noble Lord's extraordinary inclination for making con stitutions. The Noble Lord had introduced an anoma lous institution, and hoped it would succeed, merely be cause it favoured the principle of municipal corporations. He considered that the restriction in the sale of waste lands would give Gov ernment the opportunity of intro ducing the convict system again. Ile hoped Go vernment would consent to the alterations that had been suggested, and then he was certain Government would get the cordial support of the House and the country. Mr. M. MILNES did not recollect that such a large and liberal concession had ever before passed that House, or was ever before known in the history of any civilized state. With respect to the apparent unity of opinion on the subject of two legislative chambers, he wished to know whether every Hon. Member enter tained precisely the same idea with respect to these two chambers. The idea of two chambers was apparently adopted because supposed to be something analogous to the British Constitution; but if the question was inves tigated it would be found that the definition would not hold good with reference to some of the colonies. It was true that only one chamber was by the Bill provided in some of the colonies, but this he conceived was a strong proof of the independence of the measure, and of the sa crifice of all personal feelings and views on the subject. In France a feeling in favour of one chamber was exhi bited, and this might be taken as another reason why, situated as the Australian colonies were, two chambers were not considered to be indispensable. if we adopted the principles of this Bill we should give the colonies self-government. He was satisfied, if the Bill was adopted, it would tend to perpetuate the race and lan guage of England in our colonies in the same glorious way as it had done in the United States of America. Mr. WILD considered that justice would not be done to British subjects located in distant colon:es, such as Canada and Van Dieimen's Land, sinless they were represented is that House. This was no new idea, and it was ono that was founded on justice and expediency. Mr. STANFORD considered it would have been more to the credit of the Noble Lord when he introduced his hieterical sketch of our colonies, and his exposition of his colonial policy, had he dwelt more on the noble sacrifices made by this country, and the enormous sums that bad bsen spent Lin their acquisition. It had been asserted that the present measure was to do away with monopoly; but he contended it was under the old sys tem this country grow great, and it was the system which other countries were pursuing in order to rival our greatness. (The Hon. Member could not be distinctly heard in the gallery, owing to the noise in the House.) The principle of monopoly had been instituted by our ancestors, but it had been abandoned by this country, having been continued by Germany and the United States of America.—(Divide, divide.) The lion. Gen man proceeded to quote from various documents to show the distressed state of the colonies under a free-trade system, and concluded by contending that the principles of the Noble Lord had a tendency to break up our colo nial empire. He had listened mast attentively to the various speeches which had been made, and he must offer his opposition to the measure. The Bill was then read a second time. DISTRESSED UNIONS ADVANCES AND RE PAYMENT OF ADVANCES (IRELAND). On the qulstion that the report be received, ColoLel SII3THORP said, on the motion to confirm the grant of 300,0001., it would he opposed by him, ac cording to the notice given by him, by moving that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. P. SCROPE did not know what efforts bad been made to recover these rates. The House did not know how remiss the parties whose duty it was to collect those rates might have been, so us to make it necessary to call upon this country fur a sum of 300.000/. Till sumo fur ther information was given to the House he thought the [louse should not proceed so quickly. Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that all he wanted was, to move for the Bill, end his Hon. Friend could speak to the merits of the Bill when be saw At the same time he would submit to his Hon. Friend that, although certain unions were iu this distressed state, and he proposed a loan not exceeding 300,000/., yet some of these unions would not require this as sistance. Report received. The Party Processions (Ireland) Bill went through Committee, Mr. C. Lewis in the chair. __ The Committee on the Parliamentary Voters (Ireland) Bill was then postponed till Friday. The second reading of the Electors (Ireland) Bill was deferred till Friday. The Committee on the Pirates' Head Money Repeal Bill was deferred till Friday. The Committee on Supply was also deferred till Friday. LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL. Sir W. SO:AERVILLE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to provide compensation to tenants for improvements effected by them in certaincasea, and to amend the law of landlord and tenant in Ireland. He said there had been various attempts at legislaqon upon this importlnt sub ject. In 1845 a Noble Lord had introduced a Bill into the House of Peers, which had cover come down to the Lower House. In 184 G a Bill was introduce i into the Lower House, which had never passed a second reading. In 1848 he (Sir W. Somerville) introduced a Bill, which was read a second time, with the view of refaring it to a Select Committe. In that Com mittee many amendments wore introduced, but, upon being returned to the House, it was found impossible to proceed with it that session, and it dropped without having undergone a full and complete discussion. It had not met with any great favour on account of the coin , plicated nature of the machinery by which it was pro posed to carry it; into effect. He proposed by the pre sent Bill to do away with this complicated machinery; he had remodelled and simplified the clauses of the Bill of 1848, and rendered theta easy of comprehension, and ho wishei the measure to bo laid on the table, in order that it might be carefully read and considered. He had not altered the terra or amount of the compensation, as in the Bill of 1848; but he had abolished the umpire, and substituted another officer. He had not introduced any clauses to embrace the jurisdiction of the assistant-1 barristers, because it was his intention shortly to intro duce a Bill to consolidate and amend the lava relating to the civil bill courts in Ireland. The Bill would con tain a clause that ejeotments or non-payment of rent should apply to tenants from year to year; that receipts for rent should specify dates; that after a day to be namel no distress bo taken for rent due more than a year before making that distress; and that the practice he prevented of carrying off crops on Sundays, or by night. Ho feared the Bill would not satisfy the ex tremes of bath parties in Ireland, but ho hoped it would meet with tie assent of all inede , a:e men, r arti cularly as it permitted voluntary arean4eznenti to be reel- lee'eeesn I a 1 .,:e,r. - !F. t had for its object tli , ! eucourlvmeut 05 labour, the st.curity of capital, and the permanent benefit of the owner and occupier of the soil.—(lTear.) Lord CASTLEREAGH said ho was most anxious to tee justice done to all parties on this most important subject. His opinion on, the subject of the reduction of rents was this: The altered circumstauces of the country would demand a consideration of the rents under which the tenants held; and while en the one hand he would entirely discountenance a reduction of rent over all property belonging to a landlord, not discriminating be tween the good tenant and the bad, so on the other hand he was of opinion that it believed landlords to look into their property and rents, and to the condition of their industrious tenants, to see where the shoe pinched, and give them relief. If the landlords would follow that plan they would obtain better security for their rents hereafter, and gain the affection of their tenants.— (ffiar, hear.) At a sneoting held at Cumber, a gentle man warned the tenantry not to be satisfied with a reduction of rent; ants he gave a history of an estate belonging to a noble relative of his (Lord Castlereagh). That gentleman said that the estate at Cumber had been purchased by an ancestor of the present owner in the first part of the last century for 30,0 , 101. ; that the rent-roll was then between 3,0001. and 4,000/., bet that it was now 24,000/. Who, he asked, hal made the dif ference ?—(Cries of "The tenants.") What would be the legal interest of 30,0004 ? At 5 per cent, it would amount to 1,500/. And then he wont On to say that the farmers who are toiling and sweating to enrich the landlords, are to be their slaves or banished at pleasure • from their homesteads. This was the authority of this Presbyterian clergyman for the fixity of tenure. " God net only made his own people farmers, but he gave them their farms in pervituity. He gave them fixity of tenure, on which the success and prosperity of the farmers depend. In asking for fixity of tenure, he knew they had revelation on Vseir side, and he believed God had permitted the present oppressions to show the hollowness of the relation between landlord and tenant. —(Laughter.) He had known in a parish not 12 ini:es distant farmers who had been respectable men, seeing themselves and their children reduced to beggary by no fault of theirs, and who, in a moment of trenzy, com mitted suicide." He (Lori Castlereagh) thought this statement so loose and general that ho made some in quiries on the subject, and the reply was, that no such circumstances had been heard of. The best ad vice ho could give to the tenants was to be moderate in their demands on their landlords, and he would advise the landlords to consider seriously the circum stances of the times, and look to the welfare of their tenants. After afew words from Mr. M. O'Connell, Col. Dunne, and Sir W. Somerville, leave was given, and - the Bill was brought in accordingly, and read a first time. On the motion of Mr. WYLD the report. of Dr. Fsrr and Mr. Grainger to the General Board of Ilealsh on 38 tnetropolitrin workhouses, dr.ted the 26th day of March, 1819, was ordered to be laid upon the t'.ble of the House and printed. On the motion of Mr. EWART the following Com mittee on public libraries was appointed: —Mr. Ewarr, Lord Seymour, Mr. Disrarii, Sir Harry Verney, Mr. Charteris. Mr. Bunbury, Mr. George Alexander Hamil ton, Mr. Brotherion, Mr. Manes, Mr. Cornewall Lewis, Sir John Walsh, Mr. Thicknesse, Mr. Mackinnon, Mr. Kershaw, and Mr. Wyld. Mr. C. LEWIS brought in a Bill to authorise the en closure of certain lands, in pursuance of the fifth annual general report of the Enclosure Commissioners for England and %Vales, and to confirm the proceedings in the matter of the Common Wood Enclosure. The House adjouned. at Twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 18. Th 9 LORD CMINCELLOR took his seat upon th© Wool sack at Fire o'clock. The ,Duke of Richmond presented a petition from Rochdale against the relay system in factories, and praying that the principle of tLe Ten Hours' Act should be carried out. Lord BROUGHAM moved for certain returni re lating t.) thQ Bankrupt Acts Consolidation Bi!I of last sescion.— Agreed to. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented certain returns relating to the Poor-Law Unions in Ireland ; also returns from the Comcnizsioners of Encumbered Er, tees in Ireland. DOLLY'S BR AE. Lord STANLEY rose to move for copies of the cor respondence between the chief magistrate of Armagh and the Executive Government, in the months of June and July, 1846; also copies of any instructions to the con stabulary in reference to any processions expected to take place on the 12th of July last; and of instructions to the stipendiary magistrates who were specially sent down to Castlewellan before that day; also copy of official communications from the stipendiary ma gistrates and constabulary officers as to the proceed ings of the 12th of July, 1849, in any part Ulster; also copy of instructions to W. Berwick, Esq., accompanying the Commission of the 27th of July, 1849; also, copy of affidavits of John Jardine and John Porter, flied in the Court of Queen's Bench in Hilary Term last; and of the report annexed to the affidavit of John Porter, and verified thereby; and also, copy of any official report to the Lord •Lioutenant or the Lord Chancellor of Ireland of the proceedings at the Petty Sessions held at Castle wellan on the 11th of September and the 9th of October, 1849. He assured their Lordships that he never felt more in need of their Lordships' indulgence than he did in bringing forward this mo tion, vehicle went to impugn the conduct of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. He did not impute to his Noble Friend any personal impropriety—he did not impugn his motives, for he believed that throughout his administration his Noble Friend had been actuated by the highest motives; but be thought he had acted without proper discretion. He had also to impugn the conduct of the Commission sent down to conduct the investigation, and also to impugn the conduct of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, for not protecting the magistracy, of which he was the official guardian. He felt ,:ho had to labour against prepossolsiona which their Lordships entertained, and in which he joined, against unmeaning processions, vc hich tended to exasperate and renew political animosities, to promote breaches of the peace, and sometimes, as in this instance, to occa sion loss of life. As a proof of his detestation of these processions, he would remind their Lordships that he was himself the person who had introduced the Processions Act which had expired in 1844. Ile hoped he would not be considered as holding any undue bias in favour cf Orangemen. lie believed them to be brave, religious, and loyal, and thought that, although there might be unworthy members, as a body they deserved the character he had given them, and he believed that the Crown mightalways rely upon them for the defence of the province of Ulster against all enemies, foreign and domestic, but he admitted that their orgen izetion might tend to fostar religious and political ani mosities. He would now rapidly relate tLe facts of the sese to which he wished to draw their Lord s:Sips attention. It was well understood that on the 12th of last July it was intended to make a large Orange demonstration in the province cf Ulster, Notice was given to the Government, and two stipendiary magistrates, and a small body of troops were sent down to Castlewellatefrom wheneeit was known that a large Orange procession would set off to go over Dolly's Brae to the park of his Noble Friend near him (the Earl of linden). The pass of Dolly's Brao might have been guarded by a small body of men against a larger number of per sons. There was another road passing round by Dolly's Brae by which the procession might .have gone. Before the Orange procession appeared a small body of troops occupied the pass of Dolly'; Brae, and soon after a large body of into, armed with scythes and guns, appeared, and finding Dolly's Brae occu pied by troops, emerged in the vicinity. The Orange body, headed by the police and accom panied by women and children, passed in proces sion, and by the exertions of the authorities, of the Orangemen, and of two Roman Catholic priests the pro cession passed without a collision. The procession having passed without interruption, it became a question whether they should return by Dolly's Bras. It was determined that they should. The cavalry, unfortunately, had been compelled to leave the pass in search of forage. The Ribbonmen continued in occupation, and the two Catholic priests furnished them with bread to keep them together, and also gave them a blessing. About an hour before the time fixed for tLe return of the Orange procession the Ribbonmen took up a position which commanded both the pass of Dolly's Brae and the other road by which they might have returned. After havi n g had refreshment in Tollymore-park, and having been addressed by his Noble Friend, the Orange procession returned by the pass of Dolly's Brae, where the Ribbonmen had taken up a formidable po sition. After the Orange procession had neatly passed a squib was let off. This was followed by two shots, and then there came a tremendous fire upon Orangemen, policemen, and military. The fire was principally directed against the police, who with great gallantry charged the Ribbonmen, and cleared the hill ; and it was the opinion of several officers, that had not the Orangemen taken the Ribbon rebel hand in flank, the position would not have been claimed. He called it the rebel band because it fired upon her Majesty's troops. He admitted that afterwards some of the Orange party were guilty of atrocities which he deeply regretted. Houses were fired, some inoffensive person was put to death, and ho was sure that if the perpetrators of those atrocities could he dis covered no one would be more rejoiced at the =cum stance than his Noble Friend. Shortly afterwards informations were exhibited at the Castlowellan sessions against certain persons for attending an illegal proces sion, which were refused by the magistrates, and there upon the Government removed from the commission his Noble Friend the E arl of Roden and Messrs. Francis and William Bears. Ho thought there was a prima facie case to fortify the elis missarof Mr. W. Beers, but Mr. Francis Beers hadin terfered during the conflict to preserve peace, and had ac tually, in one instance, saved a Ribbonman's life. The only offence alleged against him was that he did, in Lord Roden's park, put on an orange ribbon, which he took off before he left the park ; this, together with the fact that he was present in the procession, was the charge against him. The charge against his Noble Friend was that he had received the procession in his park, had addressed them, and had refused to re ceive the information tendered at Castlewellen. This, he contended, was not sufficient to justify their dismissal. The dismissed magistrates had no rea son to know that the procession was an illegal procession, and they had every reason to be lieve that they had the permission of the Government. The Procession Act had expired, and there was no law rendering processions of that nature per se and ab initio illegal. The Government had, how ever, sent down Mr. Berwick as a Commissioner to in quire into these transactions, and on his report—not on the evidesce as given, but on garbled Pxtra-,ts cf that evidence—the Government decided that there was e case to jtistify them in tai misting T.ord Roden from the p , ,l.‘e, Th , I- 7 number of extracts from the evidence taken before Mr. Berwick, for the purpose of showing that it was the general opinion cf the magistracy that party processions were not in themselves illegal, but only so far as they tended to cause a breach of the public peace. lie con tended that this was a perversion of the evidei ace given before the Commission. But Mr. Berwick lays down as undoubted law, that persons combining with a deter mination to oppose by force any resistance thee might be made to them, were guilty of a breasts of the peace. This was a most monstrous principle to lay down. What if persons were to assault !inlet dully, would the party who were acting lawfully bee guilty of a breach of the peace if they resisted? Most certainly not. To say so was to announce a molastrous absurdity. The Noble Lord then referred to the fifth report of the Commissioners of the Criminal Law, and a decision given by their Lordships in the ca se of the late Mr. O'Connell, in which it was laA down tb at inti midation in defence of the law was legal, and that no party could suffer who acted as intimidators. 'Thus it was shown that Mr. Berwick's Jaw was a violati ell of the first principles of law. The Noble Lord then referred to the conduct of the Lord Lieutenant in April and in May in 1843. The Orangemen were then calleo: by him " loyal Orangemen"—" loyal Protestants." In steer, the Orangemen were flattered and petted in 1843, nay more, they were trusted—(Hear, hear)—and it was owing to their loyalty that the Noble Lord (the Lord-Lieutenant) was able to withdraw the troops from Ulster, to put down the incipient rebellion that had occurred in the south. T,o Noble Lord then read a letter mil lressed from the Under Secretary of State of Ireland, eulo gising the Orangemen of Ulster iu 1848, and con tended that the Orangemen had a right to consider that they were perfectly justified in holding their meeting. and walking i n p rocess i on on the 12th of July. If these processions were illegal, tb ey were us much so in 1848 as in 1819. Yet, in the former year they were countenanced by the Govern ment. The Noble Lord then referred to the fiu.tt thy, the Government had been apprised of the intention of the Orangemen to walk on the 12th of July, and. yet no steps were taken to prevent their doing so; nor Si 'AS the Earl of Roden told by the Lord Lieutenant, with whom he was in confidential communication, that if he rs , ceived the Orangemen in his park he would be guilty of an ilk gal act.—(Bear, hear.) The Noble Lord then proceeded to contend that the Commission appointed by thti Lord Lieutenant to take evidence in reference to the Dolly's Brae affair, was illegal. It was so contended. by Mr. Whiteside, the eminent Irish counsel, on the ground that the Commissioner had no power to administer oaths to witnesses, as they could not be indicted for perjury. The Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) quoted Lord Denman, who denounced in the strongest terms such a teourt as that constituted in the person of Mr. Berwicic. That ; gentleman was not only judge, but prosecutor and jury, and if there were any culprits before him, they* were the very witnesses whom he had called before, him to be examined. He said that the conduct of Mr. Berwick in that matter was without any war rant of law, because by the publication of that evidence those party s were prejudiced wh 3 were liable to be put upon their trial. The proceeeFngs by the Commission were not only illegal, but the evidence was obviously partially taken. This appeared from page five of tee report; for it appeared that the reotesonta ' tiou was first that the riot was caused by a s.raggling party of Orangemen, and it turned out in the evidence h.( fore Mr. Lerwick that some Catholics had be gun it by firing a few shots. This was only ono instance of a bias which pervaded the whole report. Another h ad reit:r eam to the part taken by Mr. Berg in these occsirrences, Mr. Berwick representing that the Orangemen were mus tered in strong numbers around him when the ITO kg irgrates arrived, whereas the Let was, that he was early on the ground with the magistrates for the purpose of prevent ing any breach of the peace. Then with regard to re turning by the new rather than by the old road, there was a direct misrepresentation of Mr. Morgan's evidence on the subject. The fact was, that Mr.Fitzemurice, a ma gistrate, was sent by his brother magistrates to advise them that there might be danger in returning by the same road; and if that advice had been adopt, sd tbe ca tastrophe would not have occurred. Mr. Berw'ick, in his report, had omitted the opinions of several stipendiary magistrates and military officers upon the point, which had a direct influence on the question, and tended to a result diametrically the reverse of any which c ould have called for the dismissal of Lord Roden. The priest him self laid stress upon the importance of keeping the body together, for as long as that was done their' joint inter position might have prevented mischief. These gentle men e ore of opinion that the old road was by far the safer of the two, notwithstanding the position of the Ribbonmon on the Magheramayo-hill. In another mat ter the report of Mr. Berwick was quite contrary to the fact. Mr. Berwick stated that two Roman Catholic clergymen exerted themselves, without effect, to induce the body to return to their homes. Now, those priests did no such thing, and they said they did not. Mr. Morgan said distinctly that he told them to go away from the place in which they then were, but did not tell them to go home, as he was afraid of the conse quences. The Commissioner then goes on to say in his report his balance of evidence is in favour of the conclusion that a squib or rocket was fired from the hilt; whereas the evidence was rather the other way. On another point, Mr. Berwick wrs apparently extremely deficient in the acumen which ought to belong to a man engaged on the important business with which he was entrusted. An unfortunate follow being found with his head broken in, and his eyes protruding, Mr. Berwick, from that evidence alone, took upon himself to say that this act was done with an Orangeman's musket. He would admit, in his Noble Friend's presence, that after these events he would have exercised a more sound discretion, had ho abstained from sitting as a magistrate, to decide upon cases which so originated. But this was only an indiscretion, and afforded not the shadow of a ground for the removal of his Noble Friend. It might as well be said that the Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack was liable to an impeachment in that House for having given judg ment in favour of the Grand Junction Canal Company against a private individual, because the Noble and Learned Lord happened to be a large share holder in the company.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Ber wick, at the petty sessions at Castlowellan, when he found the magistrates indisposed to accept his view of the law, persuaded them by a species of bribery—he did not, of course, mean pecuniary bribery—but he did persuade the magistrates to coincide in his opinion, that if the defendants were convicted, the penalty should only be a nominal one. He wanted to know why Mr. Berwick was at those petty sessions at all; but being there, if he were in the least desirous that the law should have effect, he took the most effectual means of frustrating it. It' Mr. Berwick were dissatis fied with the decision of the magistrates, he might have procured a mandamus against them from the Court of Queens Bench; but Mr. Berwick did no thing in the matter. lie did not take a single step to give effect to his opinions. On the 2d of October the new Act of the 12th and 13th Victoria came into opera tion, an Act entitled, " An Act for the Protection of Ma to do a n y ac t w hi c h they were re u"ldwbheich provided that where justices lawful for the party to apply to g qo fiusittrrheaeat pe i n dne refusedlreland,'' la s n h o ,d the Court of Queen's Bench, on an affidavit of the facts, for a rule calling on such justices to show cause why that act should not be done, and if good cause should hot be shown, then the Court sh ou ld ma k e t h e ru l e a b so l u te ; and that upon the justices being served with a rule absolute, they should obey it, and do the act which they were required to do. Now, that Act of Parliament gave Mr. Berwick the means of enabling the Court of Queen's Bench to judge of the merits of the whole case. It would, at the same time, hare been a simple mode and an inexpensive mode, of establishing the i n di s p u t a bl e law of Mr. Berwick. This report of tho Commissioner, such as it was, reached the L urd Lieutenant about the 22d of September, and on the 6th of October, 1849, the recommendation of that Noble Lord was announced, and that was, that a due regard for the future preservation of the peace, and the administration of justice, demanded the removal of his Noble Friend near him from the com mission of the peace. The power, he contended, rested with the Lord Chancello r to correct, control, and dis miss magistrates, and ho recollected well the virtuous itidignation of the Noble Lord at the bead of the Go vernment, on the occasion of the dismissal I of a magis trate. That Noble Lord said, he hoped the Noble and Learned Lord had acted in that matter not on his own judgment, but on that of any other. Would that Noble Lord condemn this transaction in the same way? Was there such a notice to his Noble Friend or to Mr. Bore, or had they any reason to believe that by what they were doing they were no t act i ng in the strict dis charge of their duti es ? H a d t h e L or d Ch a ncellor read the evidence, and called upon the parties for their vindi cation? Nothing of the kibd. In the course of the day of the 6th of October, the recommendation of the Lord Lieutenant was signified. 'as far as appeared in those papers by the report of Mr. Berwick, but not even ac companied by the minutes of the evidence furnished by Mr. Beres himself. It appeared that the post went out that day, and the Lord Chancellor, without waiting for an answer or an explanation. dismissed two magistrates, who had for a long period of time acted irreproachably in the discharge of their duties, and one of whom had been for forty years is the commission of the peace. He said that this was a proceeding without precedent, I and one which lowered the dignity of the Lord Chan ' cellor, and degraded his character into a. mere tool of the executive; He grieved to have to add also, that there was an adoption of this degrada tion of position by the Lord Chancellor, in which he did not go through the common forms of justice, so much as to ask the parties for their defence. It ap peered as if the Lord Lieutenant's secretary was i n a hurry to execute the orders of his master, the Lord Lieutenant, to commit this arbitrary act. Could they think that they carries with them the feeling of the people—on the contrary, they irritated the most loyal portion of the people, and called forth sentiments of sympathy towards Lord Roden, not only from Orange men and Protectionists, but from all the members of the board of guardians of the union over which he presided, to his impartiality and justice c w o h m o p b ri o s r e e d tbesottihmoonf P ro t e stants and Roman C at h o li cs , y to wards all; moreover, these gentlemen were determined to return him an elected member of the board, having been excluded from it, as an cx officio member, by his re moval from the magistracy. He hid now concluded what he bad to observe upon this subject. He might be asked why ho did not move a direct vote of censure upon the Government. It was that he wished to keep this constitutional question apart from party feslings, be cause he did not seek a party triumph or a Parliamen tery advantage. He asked for those papers, that the informationcountry a ndtheir Lordships to decide h would e t thener this ableas a upon further wise course, or, on the contrary, an arbitrary, unconstitu tional, of his Noble Friend t n ahl 'he Earl make a a E n a d rfwle ()f unjust rce Lr act.—(Loud ks oN ( n L Dt o ho u e d Ns pseaecheers.)icdh before be proceeded t who had just set down, be wished to express a hope that his wen appraranco there that night would not be re garded as a precedent, nor constituted one hereafter.— /cf.'s , . hr,( 4 , Comb •‘7 , -.r . # n !le, serious interruption of the public business in Ireland, for the purpose of defending an act of the executive government of that country, because he had understood that his Noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) had thrown out a sort of challenge to him, which it might be unbecoming in him to decline; but at the same time he had not determined on coming without much doubt and serious reflection ; because he fhlt it would ho most injurious to the public service in Ireland, if the Lord Lieutenant was to be expected te appear in his plass) in their Lordships' House whenever any member of it might thick fit to impugn his public conduct, and require his attendance there to explain it.--(llear, hear.) If such was to be the case, when party spirit prevailed much and ran high, it would be impossible for any Lord Lieutenant to maintain that position which was essential to the performance of his duty or the maintenance of the dignity or authority which belonged to the representative of the Sovereign.—(Hear.) The assurance, however, that his presence was necessary for the vindication of the honour and character of his Noble Friend opposite (Earl Roden) would be quite sufficient to induce him (Earl Clarendon) to come over on that occasion, but he hoped that on public grounds his ap pearance would not he considered as a precedent for the future.—(Hear.) He agreed with his Noble Friend, that no man, no matter how high his rank or station, was above the effect of public opinion in this empire ; and therefore he (the Earl of Clarendon) was nut sorry that the present question had been brought before them, because by narrating certain facts and sup plying certain deficiencies in the speech of his Noble Friend who had just sat down, he would be able to show their Lordships that the dismissal of those magistrates was not so unjust nor unconstitutional a step as they had been told, but an act fully in accordance with the law, and calculated to maintain the public peace of the coun try.—( Hear, hear.) Ire would then briefly refer to the Act for putting an end to party processions. It had been fully admitted by his Noble Friend opposits that every one of those party processions tended to a breach of the peace; that the attendance at them was a misdemeanor, and punishable by the common law. The last Act had been renewed during the reign of her present Majesty, but had been suffered to expire in 1845, without another renewal, because it was hoped that party processions would no longer be continued or persevered in. During the year in which the Act forbidding party processions had expired, Lord Farnham had addressed a most ad mirable letter to the Orangemen of Ireland, calling upon them earnestly to desist from assembling in such pro cessions. The Noble Earl here read an extract from Lord Farnham's letter to which he alluded. Mr. Wallace had been dismissed from a Deputy Lieutenantship and the commission of the peace for the county of Antrim, for establishing an Orange lodge and arrauging a party procession. The Noble Lord here read the letters of Mr. Lucas, the then Irish Secretary, in which was con veyed the Lord Lieutenant's expression of disapproval of that gentleman's conduct. He (the Earl of Claren don) stated that fact, for the purpose of showing that the course recently pursued by the Irish Government, and which his Noble Friend had described as so unpre cedented, so illegal and unconstitutional, was precisely that which had been pursued by the Government of 1845, of which his Noble Fried opposite was a member. —(hear, hear). In the month of March, 1846, a memorial had been presented to Lord Ileytesbury, signed by four magistrates of the county of Down, denouncing a procession of Ribbonmen which was to take place on the 17th of that month as dangerous calculated to lead to a breach of the peacs, and that, as such, it ought to be prevented. Yet three out of the four magistrates who had signed that memorial were on the bench at Castlewellan when the informations had been refused to be taken against the Orangemen. In the year 1848, in consequence of the great length to which certain political parties had gone, a more than usual demonstration had been made by the Orangemen; and ho could assure his Noble Friend that ho was as ready to bear testimony to the good conduct and praiseworthy demeanour of the Orangemen on that occasion as any other person. lie had received addresses from them stating that they were prepared to lend all the aid in their power to the main tenance of order and to aid the government of Ireland iu every way that might be necessary. But the present question had nothing to do with that, for the individuals concerned in this matter had caused so much alarm that he bad keen obliged to take unusual precautions to en sure the preservation of the public peace. He had sent a large military force to places iu the neighbour hood of this contemplated procession, He had also ordered an increase of 500 constabulary. He did not put a stop to those processions, but ho had taken such precautions as would prevent any evil consequences from being the result of the same. Ile had received an account of one of those processions in the county of Donegal, at which the parties comp os i ng i t h a d b een obliged to leave their arms in a house on the way side. In 1848 Mr. Francis Beers had heard that the passage of the Orangemen through Dolly's Brae would be dis puted, and that gentleman had then prevented them from marching by that road; but in 1849 he had deliberately allowed it to take place, as a sort of triumph over an opposite party. In the winter cf 1848-49, a great deal of party excitement had taken place on that matter, and he (the Earl of Clarendon) had sent a considerable re inforcement of troops and constabulary to the county of Down, particularly to the districts near Rethfriland. A feite alarm (as the Noble Earl, who was occasionally very imperfectly heard, was understood to ray) had cause the death of a policeman and a woman. lie had written a letter ordering the parties impli cated in that transaction to be brought to justice. The parties had accordingly been arrested, informations halit -, been sworn against them, and counsel had been sent down to conduct the prosecution. In Newtownards also, and Hillsborough, the law had been similarly laid down and enforced. In fact, many things had occurred to make the practice and state of the law perfectly well known in that very county on the subject. Matters re mained in that way until about the 12th of July, when he had feared the riots might take place, and with a view to guard against the same he had dispatched 7 head constables, 7 sub inspectors, and 253 police, into the district, and several stipendiary magistrates were also directed to repair to the same, and the military and police stationed in the neighbourhood put under their control. There were also several of the best detective officers sent thither to obtain the best private infor mation as to the real intentions of the respective parties. In fact, no measures that could he taken of a precautionary nature had been ()tatted upon the re cent occasion which might have tended to preserve the peace. Several communications had passed between some of the local authorities and the Govern ment, bat all the information obtained was of a general rather than a special nature, and therefore he had consi dered that it would be most unwise to give any special instructions to the stipendiary magistrates, Mr. Tabitetai or Mr. Fitzmaurice, but that it would be better to leave a discretionary power in the hands of two gentlemen worthy to be fully entrusted in the business. It appeared, however, that from what ho bad collected on the spot, Mr. Tabiteau had feared that a collison or a breach of the peace might be apprehended if the Orange proces sion proceeded through Dolly's Brae, as was purposed, and he had informed his Noble Friend opposite (the Ertl of Roden) of the fact. An application had been also made to soother magistrate, Mr. Beers, on the same matter, by Mr. Fitzmanrice, but that gentleman had said that he had no influence with the Orangemen such as would prevent them from going that road. After stating some of the negotiations which had taken place with respect to the preventing of the procession going by the road in question, the Noble Earl proceeded to read some extracts from Mr. Ber wick's report of the whole transaction. The fol lowing was that gentleman's account of the affair:— " In the evening the Orange party, having remained about two hours at Lord Roden's, did return, and took the old road through Dolly's Brae, and passed it in safety, and cheered after they passed. Nothing, how ever, occurred to excite alarm except the taunts of a number of women collected on the roadside, who told them they were prisoners, and would catch it before they passed Magheramayo Hill.' The Orange proces siou—some of whose members appear not to have been as peaceably conducted as in the morning—was preceded as before, by a body of police, and the rear was also protected by another body of police, and by the dra goons. On arriving at the point of the road imnae• diately under the brow of Mugheramayo Hill, where the opposing force was stroegly entrenched, the police who were in front drew up along the side of the road, and stopped to allow the Orange procession to march past, which they did without interruption. Unfhrtu nate, after the whole body had passed forward, and while the police were in the act of forming again to follow them, a squib or blank shot was fired, but from which party I am unable to say, several trustworthy witnesses having stated their belief that it came from the rear of the Orange party, and others, equally credible, having stated that it came from a place on the hill, about half way between the Ribbon party there posted and the road. Almost immediately atter this occurrence two shots were tired; avid as contradictory evidence was offered to show from which party they came, I shall only say that the weight of the evidence appeared to me to favour the opi nion that that they were fired by two of the Ribbon body posted on the hill at the Orange body. Immedi ately afterwards a volley was discharged from the main body on the hill, which appeared to have been indiscri minately directed at police, military, and Orangemen, and the firing from both sides then became general. It was then deemed necessary. and I think wisely, to dis lodge the body posted en the heights; and accordingly the police, under Mr. Hill, charged up to and gained the first entrenchment, firing as they ascended at the men who were placed behind it. Immediately after it was carried the body there posted fled, and the police, who had fired in all only eighteen shots, ceased firing, and took a number of prisoners, among whom were five wounded. Several of the prisoners were found crouching, with arms beside them, behind the walls. In the meantime a body of about 100 or 200 of the Orange party had dashed up the hill transversely towards the same quarter, firing shots at the retreating body on the hill, and the police were for some time in considerable danger, being placed between two fires; they, however, threw themselves between the two parties as soon as they could, and stopped the advance of the Orange party, and in my opinion prevented a very great loss of life, which must have occurred if the two parties had come to close quarters. Whi'e this was going or. above, I lament to say that the work of reta liation, both on life and property, by the Orange party, was proceeding lower down the hill, and along the side of the road, in a most brutal and wanton manner, re flecting the deepest disgrace on all by whom it was per petrated or encouraged. Oar, little boy, ten years old, was deliberately fired at and shot while running across a field. Mr. Fitzmaurice stopped a man in the act of firing at a girl who was rushing from her father's house. An old woman of seventy was murderel, and the skull of an idiot was beaten in with the butts of their muskets. Another old woman was severely beaten ie her house, while another, who was subsequently saved by the police, was much injured, and left in her house, which had bean set, on fire. An inoffensive man was taken out of las house, dragged to his garde ii, and stabbed to death by three men with bayonets, in the sight of some of his family. The Roman Catholic chapel, the house of the Roman Who. lic curate, and the national school-house, were fired into, and the windows broken, and a number of the surround ing houses of the Roman Catholic inhabitants were set on fire and burned, every article of furniture having been first wantonly destroyed therein; and had it not bee❑ for the active interference of magistrates and the troops, much more loss of life and property would un doubtedly have taken place. It was alleged by the Orange party that shots had been fired at them from the cover of some of these houses. By the exertions of the troops the Orange body on the road and in the fields was, after some delay, pressed forward, and removed from the scene of action, but no prisoners were male of that party—a matter both of surprise and regret." After having passed a high eulogiurn upon Mr. Berwick's pro fessional character, and fitness fur the duty imposed on him of inquiring into the facts of this case, the Noble Earl proceeded to state that the reason why Mr. Ber wick had been directed to explain the law of illegal pro cessions to the Castlewellan bench of magistrates, which his Noble Friend seemed to think so strange a matter, was, that en application had been made to the Govern ment on the subject by Mr. Shaw; but rtithough that gentleman had received the Attorney-General's opinion on the matter, declaring the illegality of such meetings, and had shown it to Mr. Tabiteau, he had afterwards forgotten that he had re ceived the saute, and sail that the Government had sent no answer on the question. With respect to the dis missal of his Noble Friend he had felt it to be one or the moat painful public acts of his political life, fur he had been most useful to him on his first going to Ire laud, and he entertained the most sincere respect for his Noble Friend.—(Bear.) But in the discharge of his public duty he felt he hat no other discretion, and it was necessary that the credit of the pure administration of justice should he preserved. The people of Ireland should he tanght to know that the law was no respecter of persons of rank or sta'ion, that it did not regard the rich nor the poor, but was equally efficacious towards all. The question which was to be tried was, whether or no those magistrates had done their duty, or were responsible for the acts they had done. The Noble Lord took exception to the mode in which the inquiry had been carried on. If such en inquiry be unconstitutional, it had at all events the sanction of successive Parliaments and Governments. Lord STANLEY extla,ined. Ile said that the pro ceeding was neither judicial nor expedient, and no case had been shown to warrant it. It was, also, in his opinion. unconstitutional. The Earl of CLARENDON then proceeded to quote several cares in which a similar inquiry had been or dered when the Noble Lord himself was the chief secre tary for Ireland—(Elear, hear). With such precedents before him, he should like to know upon what grounds he could refuse to act in fulfilment of the promises that wore given to Parliament? It would have been but a mockery, after they had given such pledges to Perlia ment, if they had waited until the long ♦acation, to have carried out the inquiry, or to have gone before a magis trate. The Noble Lord had truly said, that a prosecu tion fir perjury could not lie against a person for making a false statement before Mr. Berwick; but the case was altered by the fact of having made Mr. Berwick a magis trate of the county of Down, for the purpose of giving him the due authority to render they inquiry iu every respect effective; and the sth and 6th of William IV., section 13, to which the Noble Lord referred in support of his view, had provided for such a case, and had legalised the whole proceeding. If the Noble Lord would hut take the trouble to read that section through and also Mr. Berwick's own com mission, he would see that that gentleman had full autho rity for the course he had taken.—(Hear, hear.) He (the Earl of Clarendon) had been charged with not hav ing consulted the Lord Chancellor as to the propriety of instituting the inquiry. The Noble Lord, however, should recollect that it was his duty, and not that of the Lord Chancellor, to institute such inquiry. Having done so, and having received the report, together with the evidence upon which the report was founded, he sent that report to the Lord Chancellor, with his opinion as to the course that ought to be taken in respect to the ac cused magistrates. He merely forwarded to the Lord Chancellor a recommendation, which that eminent and learned functionary might have refused to accede to if he pleased. The Lord Chancellor, however, had come precisely to the same opinion as himself, and took im mediate steps to give effect to it. He had recently re ceived a letter from the Lord Chancellor, stating that in consequence of having heard it was te be alleged or suggested that, in his determination to supersede those gentlemen from the commnissio❑ of the poses, he had acted under a supposed necessity of con torthing to his (the Lord-Lieutenant's) recommenda tion, he wished to state that he took that step solely upon his own judgment— having read the evidence and the report, he did not require a moment's time to deliberate upon the course he should take under the cir cumstances, that he regarded the act as his own, and considered himself directly responsible in the matter. ile (the Earl of Clarendon) had conferred repeatedly with Mr. Bersvick upon this subject, who assured bins that he had taken the most especial care to have every point in the case fully inve , t:gated •on both sides. Mr. Berwick's notes were as fall and complete as those of any judge in respect to all the evidence that had been taken, though certainly they might not be as fall as short-hand writer would produce. Ho was, however, firmly convinced that Mr. Berwick had taken down all the evidence with the most perfect impartiality. The Noble Lord said he hoped no objection would be taken to the evidence from which he quoted, because it had been taken down by a person connected with the .Newry Telegraph. Nov this was ono of the most unscrupulous partisan papers in all Ireland, and that was saying enough.—(Laughter.) The report would, perhaps, have been most correct in giving an account of the proceedings of an Orange lodge or of the speech of Mr. 13t-ers, but the consciousness of that fact would not warrant him (the Noble E srl) in depending upon the fsithful nese and accuracy of a report in that paper of a trial in .which its own friend* were a party,who had made them selves liable to grave suspicion. But his Noble Friend said that this report was verified by affidavit. He (Lord C.) had, however, received within the last three or four days a letter from a reporter, connected with a news paper called the Banner of Ulster, which had been di rected to Mr. Conway, the proprietor ef the Dublin Evening Post, in which he stated that upon the day when the inquiry under Mr. Berwick was resumed, there was no reporter from the Newry Telegraph pre sent—that he had furnished him with an abstract of what had taken place, which report was afterwards fal sified ten times. And he further added that he was in a position to prove that no person took full notes of the proceedings but himself. The sessional Crown solicitor, who took a short•hand note of the proceedings, had been appealed to upon this point, and he stated that in the report referred to by the Noble Lord opposite there were continuous mistakes and errors, and a suppression of evidence by wholesale. The Noble Earl then observed that the affidavit in respect to that report was in perfect harmony with the other affidavits put in upon this most discreditable trial. Chief Justice Blackburn characterized the newspaper report as meet garbled and inaccurate. Hsving disposed of that subject, ho hoped their Lordships would extend to him their indulgence while he alluded to a matter which was, though personal to himself, not without some public importance. As he had been brought over there that evening, he thought that was a fitting opportunity to allude to a certain misrepresentation that had been made against his character, in the performance of the arduous duties that were eutrusted to him as Lord Lieatenarit of Ire!and. Calumnies of every shade and variety had been uttered against him; but these ho felt he could afford to treat with that contempt which they deserved, relying upon justice from their Lordships' hands. But there was one document put into circulation which was signed by one or two Noble Members of that House. The principal charges contained in it were founded, it was said, upon the sayings of two gentlemen—one of them was dead and the other was in India. It was stated that he had courted the Orangemen of Ireland in the hour of peril, and basely deserted them when he no longer required their services—that he had armed • this class of persons exclusively when he had refused the privilege of bearing arms to other claises. Now he knew nothing of the Orangemen of Dublin, except that such a body did exist, until the 13th of March, 1848, when he received a copy of a very proper and loyal address, in which they offered their assistance to suppress the apprehended anarchy. This was presented at a time when the peace of the country was placed in great danger—when shooting clubs were springing up on every side—when the most seditious language was uttered in some of the news papers, in which the people were encouraged to butcher the troops—and when almost every post brought art ac• count of some new political disaster in Europe. He felt it to be his duty to accept the services of every class of loyal citizens at such a time, without inquiring into their religious or political tenets, and as a matter of course he did receive the address. His attention, however, was called to certain resolutions that had been passed on the very same evening, and by the same body, which, in effect, attributed the sedition and discontent that existed to the encouragement that the Government had given to Popery, and expressing their opinion that the ex istinc, evils would never bo abated until the Roman Catholics were effectually put down, and the Con. stitution again pieced upon its original Protestant basis. Having read these resolutions he informed the body that until they were withdrawn, he could not ac cept of their services. These resolutions, however, si ere not withdrawn, and that address was not received, nor had ever been received to this day. This body of gentlemen, however, made a request for arms to be given them, or money to purchase them. He believed these were the only persons be had ever heard of who, in the moment of peril, sought to turn their loyalty to account. He refused to grant them either arms or money. But it appeared that on the following day Captain Kennedy gave them 600/. for the purchase of arms. This money, it was said, had come from the Government. He knew nothing of this money being giver, nor from whence it came. All that he knew was, that it had not come from the Government. Ho could give his solemn assurance that he had never, directly nor indirectly, e givend on the Devon to purchase arms htoadanuyeeinedievilnd employed elr ono elan ie . Captain Kennedy, D th e e vo c n itiz C e o a m s moifsspioun, iin ,tooakgaignrsetatthepaiconnsptemtoplaoterdganouizte break, because he (Lord Clarendon) had given directions that the troops should not be scat tered about, and therefore the citizens should assemble for their own protection. Captain Kennedy deposited his plans for the defence of the city at the Horse Guards, and in one of them there was A letter to Gen. Blakeney, which he only saw within the last few days. It was dated August 6, 1848, and it stated that in consequence of the refusal of the Government to accept of the services of the Orangemen, he had suffered a loss cf 600/., which he a as induced to give them to buy arms aud to keep them in good humour. A letter had also been recently received from Major li.lnnedy in Indio, dated Dec. 27, 1849, which alluded to the circumstance, and fully exonerated the Government from any participation in the matter. He was also attacked for not having called out the yeomanry. lie felt OM such 6 Wane would be well calculated to revive those religious feuds and sectarian animo sides which it was the policy of the Government to soften down and, if possible, to extinguish. Well, then, all these dangers had passed away, the Orangemen were nut armed by the Government, the yeomany had not been called out; yet no blood had been spilled, no rancorous feelings had been generated, and her Majesty in the fallowing year was enabled for the first time to visit that portion of her dominions.—(Hear.) They had now the satisfaction of knowing that Ireland was on the whole more free from religious feuds, from political agitation, and agrarian outrage than it had been b , fore for a great many years. He regretted that the i p t re t s e e n n d t ed mo t t o ion had ever been made, because he thought hoped tattGn— h a af d ce a r b abatedkeep . a a u Aam p nf foi dtttuyehrr most unparalleled l a po a ny y lpl ee lr f ei e od e d l n no g fi t ps w o h ml t c ai h gc an li t ta h ug j e d y ; aa a ff n tt d ee rr extent,tahe faminegreatest r e i a n t eesoitt ancient or mod e r n history— after y os e t ars , duration,prolonged s u w ff h e i r e i h n gs had swept away the means and resources of the country; :end now , when they hoped that that severe visitation of Provieence had ceased—that at all events the worst was aver—it was much to be desired that all classes would combine together in earnest exertions for the common geed, and for the social regeneration of the country, and for the promotion of those interests in re spect to which England, as well as Ireland, wgarsiend separably connected. The Nobl e E ar l concluded by thanking their Lordships for the indulgence ant him, and by expressing the consent of the Government to produce the papers that were applied for. The Earl of RODEN was anxious for an opportunity to answer the many calumnies that had been uttered aga nst him with regard to the lamentable occurrence which took place in the north of Ireland in July last Year; and he had to thank his Noble Friend behind him fit affording him that opportunity. He could not but think that he had been harshly treated by the members of hoe Majesty's Government, and particularly by the Lord-Lieutenant. He was only induced, in thus rising, to defend his public and private honour from the va rious calumnies that had been poured upon him. He did not bring the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland there for the purpose of putting him to any in convenience, hut he felt that he could not refer to the circumstances that marked that night's debate in the Noble Earl's absence, and ho therefore expressed a hope that the Noble Earl would, by his presence in that House. give him the opportunity ho so much desired. He begged to disclaim being influenced by any party or political fseliug, or lq any irritation towards the Noble Earl, whom he had always esteemed, and to whom as a friend he was bound to acknowledge his thanks for past fivours. He would ask the Noble Earl to remember the 21 s t of July, about ten or eleven days after the calamit ous circumstances so often referred to, when he (Lord Roden) wrote to him saving his regret and grief at what had taken place, and offering to surrender his office as a magistrate if the Noble Earl thought that he had acted in a in , inner unworthy of such a dignity. But, at the same time, he asked him to bear in mind the danger that would arise from his doing so, by the triumph which it would give to that party that was opposed to all social order. The Noble Ear!, in reply, wrote to him a most - s courteous and kind letter, in which nothing whatever was said that could induce him to think that ho contem plated the stop which he subsequently took. Until the 7th of October he had never heard anything more on the subject. On the morning of that day he received a letter from the Lord Chancellor, removing him from the office of magistrate, end that communication was ac comps,nied by a private letter from the Lord Lieutenant, expressing lets sorrow and regret to be compelled in the discharge of his duty to cioncur in the sentiments ex pressed in the Lord Chancellor's letter. If he were guilty of the charge brought against him he would Ce serve not only to be dismissed from the magistracy, but he ought also to be ashamed to show his face within the walls of that House. The charge made against him wag, first, that he had aided and abetted an illegal meeting; secondly, that he did not use his exertions as a magis trate to prevent the effusion of blood ; and, thirdly, that ho had acted as a magistrate in his own case to pervert the ends of justice. When be considered the magnitude of these charges he wondered at his ad dressing that House, when he ought to stand a pri soner at that tar. All he demanded of their Lordships was this—not to be considered guilty until he had been tried and found guilty. This was the birthright of every man within the protection of the British Constitution, and this he claimed as a British subject. In the document before them he had been told that he had teen publicly arraigned. That ho denied. Where? and by whom? Was it by the Times newspaper or by individuals in another piece? He was re t publicly arraigned. The Noble Lord then proceeded to refer to the report of Mr. Berwielr, which he contended was a one-sided report, and did not give so ample and impartial a statement of the evidence as such a document should furnish. The Noble Lord who had introduced the question to their Lordships had only done hi.n justice when he stated that he had given to the several Viceroys of Ireland, and more particularly the Noble Earl opposite, the best support in his power. He reminded their Lordships that in 1848 Ireland was in a very serious and awful state. There visa a rebellion, which, whatever was the extent to which some might suppose it had spread in the minds of the people, at all events her Majesty's Government considered to be of a moat serious na ture. The number of troops in Ireland was increased to 40,000, and one of the most able generals in the British service was sent ever to superintend whatever military duties might be deemed necessary. He did not blame the Government for the precautions they then took. On the contrary, he thought they were right, but he merely stated these facts to show that they appre hended very serious disturbances at the time. That was the time when every loyal man and every well wisher of his country was bound to come forward and show his readines. to stand by the Government and the Crown; and he (L,-rd Roden) felt it his duty, as being connected with A Joys' district of the country, to use every means in his power to induce that part of the country to unite and exert themselves for the support of her 'Majesty's Government in Ireland. In the advice ho gave t) the Orangemen he had endeavoured to impress upon them that it was of little consequence what poli tical party was in power—whatever party was in power, he had told them that it was their duty to give their support to it. That certainly was the advice he had given the Orangemen in the month of July of that year. Ile was cert sin that the conduct of such an assemblage of loyal and independent men would have been grate• fully acknowledgsd, and would meet the full approbation of the Governmenh Ile was certain that those loyal men themselves, in coming forward on that anniversary, felt that they were acting in accordaece with the wishes and the measures of the Government. These men did set—they met in thousands—they rallied round the standard of loyalty; and, notwithstanding all the efforts used by the revolutionists to induce these loyal men to join in the cry for repeal, which they endeavoured to accomplish by holding out to them the hope that by so doing they would secure Protestant objects and Protee-' tent principles, yet so attached were they to those prin ciples which they had ever held sacred—so determined were they to stand by their loyalty end devotion to the Throne—so enthusiastic were they in their attachment to her Majesty, that they rejected all the offers on the part of the revolutionists, and the consequence was that the whole of the military stationed in the province of Ulster was able to be removed to the focus of rebel lion, by which means the rebellion was crushed, be trusted never to be renewed. In the month of March, 1849, another procession of a very different character took place, and he was sorry to say that tho results were not by any means of so satisfactory a character. Ho had had a communication from the Government with regard to that part of the country with which he was connected, in which it was stated that his exertions had been attended with the very best results, and the thanks of the Government been tendered to him for his exertions. In the month of May he had had a communication with the Noble Earl at the head of the Irish Government respecting the renewal of the Processions Act. He regretted extremely that that Act had not been introduced and passed immediately after the month of March, but he understood that it was not brought in earlier in consequence of the amount of business before the House. When the Noble Lord wroto to him, he (Lord Roden) stated that he then thought it too late, and as it would not be passed till immediately before the 12th July, it would appear as if t were only levelled at the Orange processions, and that be considered it most ungrateful on the part of the Government after the course they had taken in its support. lie appealed to the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (a rd Campbell) whether, in a conversation he had with bun on the same subject, he had not given expression to the same sentiments. On the 29th of June he went over to Ireland, and had the honour of dining with the Noble Earl opposite, when a conversation took place upon the same subject. lie had told the Noble Earl that the procession was about to take place, and the Noble Earl spoke of the officer who was to go down to the north; that he did not apprehend that any collision or disturbance would take place; and he certainly had no idea, from anything that then fell from the Noble Earl, that there was anything illegal in these processions. So little did the Noble Earl deem them illegal in his (Lord Roden's) opinion, and so little idea after the Orangemen had left his park illegal act, that on l tTe d I h 2 e tb th b a i t j h u e ly w , as taking part in any at four o'clock, the post going out at five . o'clock ! he had t down and written to the Noblelsa Earl, stating quiet tatinghow satisfactorily everything had gone off—how and orderly the immense assemb la g e had been, and by return of post he had received a letter from the Noble Earl, in which he stated how rejoiced he was to bear that every thing had gone off satisfactorily, and how grateful the Go vernment was to him for the course he had pursued, (" Hear," from Lord Stanley.) How, then, could he sup pose that lie was doing an illegal act in taking any part in these processions? He must say that he derived the greatest satisfaction from seeing 3,000 of those loyal and independent men, with their wives and families, assembled there, and upwards of 2,000 others looking on. The Noble Lord then referred to the testimony of Mr. Ftemaurice, who said that he had requested him to use his influence to induce the Orangemen to go another way. It was utterly impossible for him to have induced the Orangemen to do so, because it would have occa sioned a split among them, some of them going one way and some another, and there was the risk of their going unarmed and exposed to the attack of the armed Ribbon men.. There was, besides this, to be borne in mind that the military and police were stationed in the road the • Orangemen took, and none in the other road. He would say that the brave and determined men to whom he had spoken that day followed most scrupulously the advice he had given them. and he believed that they would have gone quietly to their own homes had they not been most basely, cowardly, and brutally attacked, with their wives and children, by those conspirators who were hiding behind walls, and houses, and hedges, in their road. It was when they were fired at in that cowardly way, and when they were defending ththr wives and children, that those most unhappy circumstances, to which the Noble Earl referred, bad taken place. The Noble Earl has denied that the boy who was killed on that unhappy Oct asioll had been killed by a ball, bat he (Lord &dm r, J 1