The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

to them and to th e colonial gentleman ? e....... To all he but 47,974,000/.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he thought Saul, " Support m e , an d I'll support you." To the cobs- that an increase of revenue would be produced by a Tat!. interests in that House, lie said, "Support me on judici o us reduction of the taxation pressing upon in ll' corn-levy question, and I'll support you on the dustry. The stimulus given to industry, when the re sugar duties."—(Cri es o f " Hear, hear.") To the duction was made with justice, and upon those which .. a g ri culturists his arg umen t s were equa l ly potent.— should be best selected, would be such that in the next (Hear, hear.) N ow , w i t h regard to the reductions that three years a result similar to that produced in the last tne Hon. Baronet had made tin the articles of limber three years might be expected. It was on that antici ant sugar, he (Mr. Roebuck) would deny that any nation the Ministers grounded the measure, which, he benefit had resulted to the country by the reduction on trusted, the House would now sanction. He confidently the latter, because it the duty had been equalised on expected such an improvement in commerce tits,ar produced in all parts of the world, the same and mauufactur e s, an d consequen tl y suc h an hbenefits w ou ld h ave follewed, while the duty would not improvement in the revenue as would at ie have beets lessened. Now, he would like to see how the end of three years enable th e House to say whether Hon. B aronet would explain upon what principle he any further change should take place or not. H e h a d had let in th e V enezuela slave-grown sugar, or the been surprised to hear the Noble Lord (Lord John Cerlorhhous amount of s l ave -grown cotton.—(Hear, hear.) Russell) say that there was no certa i nty t h at t h e reduc ;9u 1 (1 it be p oss ibl e that 'ihese productions, being the tion of taxation proposed would produce an increase of result of slave labour, did not touch hi s f ee li ngs revenue, b ecause t h ere were some articles upon which favour of the slaves in those places as reduction had taken place, and there had been no in welll'ts as in other parts of the world ?—(Hear.) crease.—(Hear.) With all deference to the Noble Lord, fn 1 % Right Hon. Baronet had lost 13,0001. by his changes he thought he was not correct in his facts, and that if he Which the fiscal regulations as regarded sugar, part of were correct in them, he was incorrect in his deductions went into the pockets of the West India planters from them. It was true, (as we understood), that in w 2 all h dl a large portion was altogether thrown away. And the case of wool—(Hear, hear, from the leading Opposi• .A. ,-‘,. thrown away ? Because it was non-productive. tion bench)—the increase had been quite commensurate d :',i so with timber. Canadian timber was not only with the reduction. The cost of the article wearer but greatly worse in quality, and upon it there had been diminished. There had been a larger sui s ie a. loss of 900,0001. He (Mr. Roebuck) knew this number of consumers, and those persons were enabled, gentlemen t well, and if te Right Hon. Baronet and other by the reduction, to expend more in the consumption of nlir,h ethen would gore through the calculations they other articles.—(Hear, hear.) But it was a very nar rer• t see it now, as no doubt they would at some later row view of the reduction and repeal of taxes, when the ti _ ',cl feel it.—(Hear, hear.) Canada produced its own Noble Lord would have them look only to the effect of :tier well fitted for the masts of ships, but timber an increase in the particular tax reduced. If that doe gjeale from the Baltic at a cheaper rate and of a finer trine were admitted, they should repeal no tax ; for h e ts l o t Y for all the purposes of building. But what would every tax repealed was, to that extent, a loss to the an ,„u • result ? 900,000/. would be lost to the Exchequer revenue. But, speaking from practical experience, we ud•e , t the people would have no better timber, They every reduction or repeal of taxation pres.,ing upon in tax,e anout to impose upon the country an income- dustry was attended with an improvement of the re theand what was their justification ? W'h • this. That venue.—(Hear.) He confidently affirmed that past ex ) oftYhewere about to favour the country with en alteration periencejustified theiranticipations in the present instance. alter ,fiscal duties. He (Mr. Roebuck) said that those —(Hear.) Looking back to an antecedent period— and t •" ) fts were fallacious in prineiple, bad in calculation, (Lord J Russell,' Lord Alihorpn—yes; at that period e . hat e . t k i to no desirable result. lie hail already reviewers a reduction of taxes which had subsisted for a long term these ir Bight Hon. Baronet called the necessity for of years was effected. In the year immediately preced- Ce s - e ` e n,aliges, and they had heard the Right lion. the ing that in which his Friend (the Chancellor of s a "Fellor of the Exchequer say that they were Deese,- the Exchequer) and himself went out of office, and the sea. In order to avert revise-ell bankruptcy. Bet who Noble Lord opp os it e an d hi s frionds succeeded them in sat, the i , . n th e e, (es en sugar and timber, and preserve to office, a very large r• peal of taxes was made, sod in the two Ili e h t ' lln „ h trY tads inquisitte hit tax ? Ile left ripen the years tellowtme taxes to the amount of 5,700,000/. were (lire i ll, "eurable lat hetet the onus of pro, in g he a-lute-I or rep, led. That tt diction pp trentty brought forelusebuelt's) stat e , exits to be incorrect. tee the rove. LIP (41 f.e e x ; ' ecte I down io 45 indlions from 50 4ptildttdverting to another part of the gllC=,Llo,, 1,, Ini,li ns J .11'7 solo- odd hundred thoustines ; but in the ver y not help remar ki ng th a t there w as a y ear t h at i mme di ate l y f o ll owe d t h ere was an i ncrease Iti, h great deal of art in the scheme propounded by th e up n th e rema i n i ng tax e s o f 3,500,0001., bringing Ri g ht t Ron. Baronet. There was a something to mollify the revenue up to upwards of 48,000,0001. ; and in seoeteehtsterN and Glasgow, and there was an attempt t o th e y ear 1835 th e rtvenue w as n ear ly th e same pen t e the oble Lord (Lord Howick) by the alter a ti on as b e f ore t h e re d uc tion took place.—(H ear , h ear .) Th at the noble ( —(Lam e h ter y) So far from a gree i ng w i t h was a proof or what might be expected from the judi teigetr Lord, that no exports should b e taxe d, t h at c i ous repea l o f taxes , an d, t a k en with th e resu l t o f t h e re buck be ee the newest principle ; however, he (Mr. Roe- lactions in 1842, justified the present expectations of the ttn se ) theught t h at t h e ex p or t s o f t h e country veer. , Goverrenent.—(Hear.) He could assure the Right 't thav'hich ought to be 'he fir •t to be taxed. inasmuch. Hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonpert, that if Pro cse4i4yr customers, not them-elves, censutned them. lie videnee blessed the country with seasons of average pro failed ;red that the Right lion. Baronst had completely ductiveness, they would be in a condition to leave it in re 4, " u make out his case. He h a d no t established one the hands of the House in threeyears to say whether they ta tili t t for his changes. H. (Mr. Roebuck) would sere' w ,, uld abandon or continue the income-tax. The question th at t of the aucti on d uty , b ut he certain l y thoug h t now before the House was the same as in 1842 ; name l y, th e c “"Posts pr ess i ng more severely upon the industry ef whether they would continue the income-tax to meet an k r °anti.) night have been removed. R . The es lit Hon. increased expenditure, and to enable them to afford great th e (41 et had, he believed, remitted that tax because of titan:mai relief—(Hear.) It was necessary to look to the tle se er Lurenous expense of collecting it. One word nature of most of our present taxes, and to the eirchna llas e a u° ll t the remissi et of taxation. - The Right Hon, stances and time in which they were imposed. They '4lU t d' t t had remitted -( the duty '' on . glass. This would were iinpased in periods of war, when it was not neces ths„P')' benefit the rich, by lowering the cast of their sat . ) to regard the effect which they might have in re s t , tfiti eedie s; , 1 , ; but the wi n de: e s of the poor would remain striceng our commerce with foreign nations ; and their It by it. The present step was in the right sole object was to raise from our own subjects the money tt eas l : l . tt, and he thanked the Right Hon. Baron e t for it. necessary for the national defence. Those taxes had 'toe 4 ,", earnest of a f u t u re time, when the monstrous been continued in a long period of peace to maintain the th ei e ri Toes of the country would be levelled to ti ne national expenditure ; and it was not surprising that ras 4o Let him not he mistaken in the res o luti on h e they s h ou ld now be found but little adapted to the t •oluti to propose. He proposed to le a v e out o f th e alter e d c i rcums t ances o f t h e country i n respect to o h t f ur " ut the words " professions, traces, and effices," foreign trade and domestic industry. That being the ;flute t he purpose of exemeting them altogether, but case, althouge he admitted that the income-tax was li e 's e ' t tlig them to a regular system of taxation, such direct and unpalatable, he thought the House should Si 4 ' l t, r G E desc ribe d. consider whether it was not wise to continue it l'' la •E. GREY said that in her Majesty's speech, at for a time longer, for the purpose of relieving the e arlerining o f t hi s session, it was recomnarnded to country from those taxes which interfered with trade t 7 ) e e - ti ent to consider whether it might not be expedient and national industryear, hear.) The Hon. Gen , t est, 4 Th u e for a limited period the tax on Property, and tlemau who moved the amendment wished to relieve a ( 1 ) 01. e l, d er also w h et h er t h ose taxes w hi c h presse d c l ass from the burden of the i ncome - tax ; b ut h e did not 4 t he ' as ily upon the energies and the industry state the matter as if he so much wished an exemption d oe. t e a °u ntry should no t b e remov e d. Th e Ri g ht for that class, as to o bt a i n an exempt i on under the ap pki ati i t t : 3 Pet, in strict accordance withlthe reco mmen- pearance of more equal taxation.—(Hear.) What was eysod ei, t hat spee c h, h a d l a id b e f ore t h e H ouse hi s pro - th e H onoura bl e M em b er ' s o bj ect i on ? I le (Mr. tt l the ir r ations. I n th e s p eec h w hi c h h e h a d a dd resse d R oe b uc k) sa id th a t t h e rea l an d f un d e d pro tt„,the c o : on Friday last, after reviewing the s t a t e perty . ought to bear the b u rden, a n d th a t p ro p er ty is U tee,l r D', and his views with regard t o th e reduc- which was not realised, ought to be exempt. That was e jaste ll ''‘ttion, he stated his confident expectation that, the argument which . was offered when the tax was first s e li ',e.ta e g e a Proposition for the continuance of the in- imposed. But Mr. Pitt's answer was, that it was wrong tras erl ' l3l ' a period of three years, he should be after- to arrange taxation so as to cause capital to be diverted lj 4 .aret ab e l ed to dispense with the tax altogether. The from one line of investment into another, to ensure more et, lee,' L earned naentleman who had just sat clown profit. If you said that land and funded property shouid e,jarltsteitrreed the House, with a gesture of disdain and be subject to the tax, which other capital was not sub liel!,lt sh i ,, w te hich he granted would w ill be mer it e d if th e ject to, you gave an encouragement t o th e se lli ng o f l an d 1t5,•, 4 t1 "CI bear him out, that th e t ax wou ld no t b e and funds, and the investment of it i n t ra d e and corn op t ed t hat Permanent. He (Sir George Grey) merce.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of the th e of hit the Right Honourable Baronet, or Exchequer) would ask where was the injustice th e grou nds ,' colleagues, would give the House of continuing this tax, which was for the ob tleitas see ,For the confident expectation advanced that ject of a direct and actual relief of the ll eh tle es u td not b e renewed, and for their desire that public generally, from the pressure of taxes to 0p 5 ".13 4 : would confirm, in consequence, the Right which they were now subject?—and those were taxes it c ,tsd vliet's resolution. lie (Sir George Grey) had which did not press more upon the man of fixed pro er'l to tt "\e, tax three years ago, but he was prepared perty than upon the professional man. The Hon. Gen helti), ps, v h,'"w the imposition of the tax for a further tleinan himself would be as much benefited by the relief tle,!,ote e l "„ed that he had a certainty of its being again as the capitalist or landlord. He would, equally with tt it 'Ll , l h e 'louse at the expiry of that time whether it the public in general, be benefited by the reduction of Prop idler further continued or not. Ile could see no- the sugar duties and the repeal of those upon glass. But r th ri6 o itsu reasonable than that Government .should was the arrangement possible to secure that every man tht etos q ,i, co ntinuance at this time, with a view to the should make a full return of his income from every al e , lea:' other taxes whicti pressed more heavily upon source? The Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) 4 ,; e d il I, f s t t e r Y of i y the country; -- but looking to the objected that the tax was inquisitorial—would it be less Is t - ,lten see e Might Hon. Baronet, he, fear hne, could so if the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Roe tliss'". r e . ; the grounds for his confident anticipation, buck) were ashamed, or would the public reel it less t hree 14 er '' , 4 : 0 1-11•1 at an after period be removed.— odious than the I lon. Gentleman sail it was, if it cl 'e e ' t glil th e ' ''''"'n Mr. Roe-buck.) He did not mean to ,ro were exteed• d to every man ?—(llear, h ar.) It was tap;' , bu t - 1 , statement of the Right : am. Hart In ow . xt.l.d, (I to a very litneed per• etn of the publi • ' l te d ,,"tett er :',„" could not, Ike him;entertalu the s eta,,,y ,lit ti. Hoe tn. ;errian ~ould ha , e every man make 'la i 4 6 i 'oat, at the end of three years, th , ' revenue the return upon oath. Tire Right Hon. Member for De li t ; l 'eo tee -n • that state to enable him to dispense with vonport told the House, that he would not consent to lls e lido 4 X , amid he believed that, if the Preposition that. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) cortenrred k , t41, 4 4 4 :, i t 4 w ht !lon. Bar. met w•ere acceded to by the in the Ris ht Hon. Gentleman's decided opposition to telSae-,t (If e il "" 1 be a gratuitous sacrifice of a hire, that expedient.—(Hear, hear.) For years past the Le i'letlieetit r e r r r ePerty wit - Matt giving the country any gislature had been endeavouring to abolish oaths of l'os e ne e , the sacrifice. He might assume that the that nature. As for instance in the Customs . and the t ee s t hem B aronet was sincere in his desire to exclude Excise, which had been found to be wholly ineffectual. t te ti * lliee ar kets of this countr ' tire su"ar of those ceun- Let the Hon. Gentleman suppose what the effect of his tir t i e of sue';llcourage slave lt,bt Y tur. But he asked - , in the Proposition would be. When the tax was first imposed, j, f kl k° pee an inerea-e in the consumption of Shut it applied (as he, Mr. Roebuck, prepesed) to every per tNillt,-- Nee"? the loss in duty, from whence the supply son, aria the product was, 15,000,0001 It now was s ''t e 4 4, , Were their colonies to supply 34,000 touch limited, that it produced only 5,000,000/. ;lo w .' cov er w aieh the Right Hon Baronet took cr. dire The Hon. Gentleman had said, what was quite intip 41':;;Illtheille''' deficit of 13,000/..? He (Sir G. Grey) plicable to Vie case, that the test of insurance which was ,t ss t th 'ter the coloniescould I •Si .b II • applied to clerks in public offices would serve as a test a ere, at th ,upp )• Si, in IL . t ~4(14c:‘,,,,1iii,e revenue would be sacrificed, and that tor the incomes of other persons. He could assure this •e e salt 4 p s , ' not be iowered lid. to the consumer, as lion. Gentleman that no such test was applicable. 14 1) 4 s w u ellia, w e i sed by the Ri g ht 'Hon. Baronet, and the [Mr. Roebuck said he had not said any such thing.] 01 ,k th Ap erted to benefit the pockets of the gentlemen To come now to what had been said by the Noble Lord t l / 4 ),,„'' hi. 4 the mono , ol • —(llear ) Ile believed on the subject of the auction duty. It was to him matter „s tew ,stedi e tEI i ) • • n g ' 5 . Baronet had no confident expectation of regret that the Hon. Gentleman the last Chancellor r i , t t iti•Sl 4 ly L' a cat er l i t ' l es, th a e nd m . arkets the sugar from the slave- ~r the Exchequer was not in his place, for if that Right . therefore, let them not hyp o . Hon. Gentleman were at the Noble Lord's elbow, he I , *l l t o there 6e a ll ' t e that they could act on that principle, would tell him that the objections to that duty were Iv• l '''' M i ll bite once sweep away the distinctions that strong and pressing, and that lie would have recom tlte th er e. erto la Preservud, and equalise the duties mended its repeal when he held office, if he could have Eden me, 15 -- ,_• s ( C e ur, hear.) Any other i mode of dealing suggested a means of meeting the deficiency. He thought sf ats d 're i re c 'n would but have the effect of making - thst the Noble Lord, with all his disposition to find fault ta t tle f i '''' d I, j , ur s ',: l us monopolies than those that now with measures proposed by the present Government, he Itl ce. ieriatbotilit, therefore, support the resolution oulde find i t hard to convince that Right Honourable h 'l4,,ptio n cu er for Manchester, that no settlement Gentleman, the . Member for Portsmouth, that they were k 4 lsi , 14 ati„, uld be 'considered but such as involved wrong in submitting the auction-duty for repeal. He et t h, Lc. th e of all the duties on that article. With did not think either that the Noble Lord would be elis e:t te e r ph. tiatrzendinent of the Hon. and Learned Posed to coalesce with the Hon. Member for Lincoln, in the tithe t a l!ght 1/ ( 1 ) ; h e (Sir G. Grey) trusted, for one, calling for a repeal of the duty upon insurance, in pre ts, elle een•f that „ 1 . Baronet might supply some ground Terence to those taxes 110 W proposed for repeal. He s w ee e4 ur th ree ee should be able to remove the tax at would not now enter into topics which would bring on m ore spi ti lNir eeh r s ears• He (Sir G. Grey) did not wish a lengthened discussion of details. Shortly before the 4 11 1 1 4, n was or modifications tried upon it, for his time when he would have to go into the whole subject • It'lis e ,1,• th ey that the more obnoxious the tax the of the present measure, the sugar question would be these4tntrereaNcLerre to get rid of it. • brought under the discussion of the House by a motion 4f.,alter mater' .-'')11 of the EXCHEQUER said of which an Hon. Member had given notice. On this y i ,,,..ei t, jati ons fr tally in opinion as to the results of subject the Noble Lord opposite was altogether opposed Ir i ts ed "ere wet . e ea the different gentlemen who had to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) The Noble is e _ 4 s t i 'l gre et e at least some points in which there the st 4e-tit e Lora did, not object to a continuance of the slavery. It was, its his opinion (as we understood), ei tk h e L e Il° Gentleman did not object to it ; quite another question in respect to cotton, to encourage /4 4 4 t the b t4 jotr o d lied Member did not object to it, only the cultivation of which was not so great an encou e4 th, s • 4 igl it ire Modifications Tito it. He agreed ragement to the slave trade as the cultivation of sugar. tCore tn e _s, - n• Baronet who had last spoken, But, as he said, he should reserve those points connected ll Q v %er e e",ifications would only render the with sugar until the time should arrive when, the subject k it h t t. , 4 POint`','24oXious and altogether inoperative, being fully before them, they would be enabled to discuss Ss " c "e th ht they were generally agreed, Cl O 'e t he °urs e of the it in all its details. It was sufficient to know that, 19,,_ ,0 00 , ?x ne .,_,. year it would be necessary to generally speaking, the House was not disposed to object i t5 5 ,;71 4 e 0e 4 1 , 4 t il e r o u rd " ( l .trur: ) oir L the coontry by the amount of to the resolution placed in the Hon. Chairman's hands. ep. ttnd of b e , "eep up those establishments at 4t e k h t i tt i ng or tcs"gleeted without. the greatest detri- It was enough for the House to decide whether eon th% es e on. the country.— (Hear heel'. ) But tinuing the property-tax for a limited period was a desirable measure. The Noble Lord had told them that the l'N.i e llt ki hi s Gen n, tl etnan wh '' ' k„11,,,,(ki f or "."Aight Hon (- spoke last asked upon . , the tax was liable to induce fraud to enable parties to )t "tt uttie. t whi c h he • Friend anticipated that, at avoid making proper returns, but the Noble Lord forgot ' l lle I\Z "he e had called for the continuance of to mention those taxes which were not liable to fraud. tip tei ° IV hwould be able to repeal it ?—(Hear, Would the Noble Lord tell him whether there had been t,,, 4 1 t 5 i i '?4 e l e hita tehat(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) as much fraud induced by the income-tax as the Excise ? f't, w ishtlaerie th e the Ministers grounded that anti of the past Whether it had been so often evaded as the duties ofExcise? 11, itk erns ,exPerienee t khe as l e ht th e , ; and that if the Whether there was a greater temptation in the one . ease S e oe is .st „ es °teary were ke to make false statements, with a view to being relieved th N y i 'lt 1, 1 ,4 itr, th ey Coup pt upon the same ( 14 ki) t ' 4 l - Aisd e.t 'lx, at u, with perfect safety, from a small portion of taxati . on ? Whether there we t te t t elide ni 1 44 , ). • 4 Ur,. P r ' s ent•—(l - lear,h,ar.) That not an equal, or more temptation to evade t a e duty whit! ' li s a sh e d eee si -, white, It 'V" (I"' imp' , Sed Lt, meet produend a large and inure benefieial results to the party t imt e: Per i , "'ley, ./ exceeded the revenue, aced pro- committing the fraude.—(Hear.) Set the fraud on the Il kt e'ait 'l" of t merlint Was now e„ proposed to continue it tp: 4l, ti t4 .): whicig an tecreesed ex 'effilietire in one side and the fraud on the other and he could not attri bute to this ,ne particular tax tl•iit degree of liability to h r eti etl 1 1 , 0 to . r e ti ev all seemed to agree, t. • i • ' fraud which tni-iii attach to enother Fraud epet ated cla, th e t 4 dustryln e the ceuh , 'on a , t' , • tax 1,1 tr 41.4 (,xistLe purpose tag was firsto l t t ms b u u ub r s.t d e ibt n et s erde w mt. - i l a i i c n i i . 'N - 1 . 4t, it wh en thi s anti c ote more or less upon every that was imposed upon the I Qh th lN . a s fur the ine et , e. country.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman . th e had told them that in repealing the duty on glass they It :e by t w ie . le s wh it and to reottceaoseverfivg a large deficiency bad abolished the duty on the chandeliers of the rich, 4 t)ti 44 th laieh , 'la we re a ,. -from burden a mon- hut the windows of the poor were left without any re tt tie g ee , em mer t that time subject to bur- lief whatsoever.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable th at i 3 4 Ppo, , c e and is l e at aft ee tdd h e e'd that e industry of ustry were restricted. Gentleman must have spoken upon the subject tit4h, a s 41 1 i rit gi v en to the ): rem ov i ~. III; that taxation, a without having first made himself acquainted 41 1 stet s hlB lii"lval' which 44d li ed wo g.i t ii ,,, , might last the people—so with its details, or he would have known the duty on five years, but a 4 ee r y eed uld r e Eriend Sir chandelier glass Was infinitely greater than the duty on tt a e i t , co ma -bab t y he n ( R. Peel) at the crown glass.—(Hear, hear.) The Hoh. and Lcarm.d h e ' ) ltle. eere e of the • 0 more than three—the Gentleman, therefore, could not have given the subject . V theirtlan oe x might be Country would recover, due consideration.—(Hear, hear.) There not appearing ku e 3, t ax w .. of t h e r, dispensed with. And what' to be as y disposition to maintain any other subject than e at tts J,ts ? „ih, itnp„ se , nue at the two periods, the one mentioned in the resolution, he thought he It" it s ' th e tie w oe p;ut and at th e e e e Of the rev en . 0 ref er for expiration of the should best cousult the convenience . of the House, and 'tlst N iba e Year ue in the threean answer to the ac. promote the advantage of fair discussion, by reserving any 'ea ;IPA; 1,37 revenue th,, years In the ac- observations he might be inclined to make till the Fr ed sti, , r , ..X eis eee o e te - 10th _saxes kl . y., .4 4 ,,, i ts, ta, the countryoftiOctober, 1'842, period when the sugar and other customs' duties should qt. e ven -ta x Ass essed , , tat arising from come before the House.—(Hear.) r este l tlto i s tailli ee ' am °unted, , the Post-office, Mr. C. WOOD expected the Right Hon. Gentleman r , i • , a. arh a of mo ney, as n ear as Possible, to who last spoke would have given some details to show ':•' 'eve nl e o t, i The . measure sub- the grounds on which he hoped that, during the course IN . ialie 4 , n th at y e tiq' e '•::,„ , ;, In eernc, atnount year ar withdrew from the of the next three years, those sources of revenue which 14 ‘l'llt4 l4 , a (1- lear, u h r e t y ax ation above 1 40,0001. were left would so far increase as to enable them to tteeel ila kt i b 'e ~,,„,, -..) But. on the 10th of take off the i c e-t 'Hear hear.) He expected ; net boon ree es sew that. ti. ):,.,. , , , , _., ~ , n om ‘,.. ax.- 0. _ ~ ‘..,, ~ ~,,,,,, as "tleed a 644 14 2 y the amount 0640 001 I that in some ca ' se ' s the ‘ redtiction of the duty on an ' 32ftrl Y 1911 Y-Stivela Wail ? . st o lls ar ticle had boon . followed by an increase on another. It THE BLN, LONDON, TITES DA T MORNING, FEBRUARY 18, 1645. was a principle to which no one in that House could object. But the whole question turned upon what the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated, that a judicious selection had been made in the articles to be reduced. Was the selection so judicious as to warrant an ex pectation that the revenue would rise to such an extent as to justify the expectation that the Government would be able to get rid of this impost at the end of three years. Now, he thought, in the absence of any attempts to show this, either by the Right Hon. Baronet on :Friday night, or by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that night, which articles were likely to produce this increase, it was only left for him to meet an assertion by a counter assertion. He said, then, there was no reason able ground for expecting such a rise in the revenue.- - (Hear, hear.) He thought that the experience of the last few years showed that the hope expressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman was not quite so well-founded as the Right Hon. Gentleman was pleased to say it was. When the income-tax was proposed three years ago, trade was in a reduced state, and the tax was not likely to realise an extraordinary large sum. Since [then, however, things had changed, profits had considerably increased, and hence the returns to the :revenue would be nearly double what was formerly realised. But he believed the income-tax was acquiesced in upon the assurance repeatedly made in that House by the Right Hon. Baronet, that it was in tended to decrease a deficiency in the public Exchequer, and so soon as the deficiency was made up, the impost was to be discontinued. Now, they saw from this that the tax was founded upon a state of things which existed no longer, and, although another assurance was held out that it was to be continued for three years only, there was every possibility of its being made ultimately permanent. He thought Hon. Gentle men had said, however, that it was desirable the tax should be kept under their controul, and that at the ex piration of three years they would have the power to reconsider it, but he confessed this was all he had heard to induce him to believe that the tax would be of a tem porary, instead of a permanent character. At the time the tax was first imposed there was a deficiency in the revenue of two millions and a half ; and he was pre pared to say that this was not a sufficient defi ciency to justify the imposition of a tax of so oppressive a character. But as he had said before, the House and the country, relying on the temporary nature of the tax,'consented to allow its oppo nents to remain in a minority, when the question was first brought forward. Had there not been sitch a pro mise held out of its non-continuance he very much doubted whether it would have met with the slightest approbation. It was stated when it was first brought forward that the tax pressed more on the rich than the artizan. This was not the case, for the experience of the last three years had proved that the income-tax was a burden on the employment of the population of the country. There was another objection to the tax. It was confined to England. Why should an Irish gentleman, possessing an income of 5001. a-year, be relieved from paying the income-tax. There was no reason whyjthe rich man in Ireland should not contribute his share of the tax as well as the rich man in England. In this coun try there was some want of employment, but in Ireland the want was painfully great. The Right Hon. Baronet, how ever, exempted the rich Irish gentleman from the tax, and im posed upon him another burden, which induced him to spend his money in other parts of the world. Now, in no country was it so desirable that capital should be introduced as it was in Ireland, where there was a large demand for employ ment, and, to meet this demand, a very considerable capital would be required. The rich gentleman was exempted from the income-tax, and in its stead was a burden which pressed more or less on the great body of the people. They were told that in the reductions made on various articles of consumption they would derive a benefit equal to an equivalent for the income-tax. Now, they had had some experience upon tills of late, but he would defy any gentleman to get up and tell him that the country had derived any very material benefit from the former reductions made by :the Right Hon. Baronet. The Government had taken credit to themselves for relieving the country from certain duties, but it struck him very forcibly that his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) was entitled to participate in this triumph ; for it would be remembered that his Noble Friend voted with him when he made a motion, last year, for re ducing the duty on wool, while Hen. Gentlemen on the other side of the House swelled the majority which defeated his in tention. It was not a little remarkable that, on refer ring to the list of ar ti c l es on w hi c h th ere had been a falling off in the duty, it wou ld b e f oun d t h a t th ere was no materialin crease in the consumption. It was still more remarkable that in the articles upon which no change whatever had been made, a very considerable increase was observable in the re turns of the imports. In the import duties delivered, he found that with the exception of coffee no increase whatever had taken place in the articles, the duty on which had been reduced by the last tariff. In tin there was an increase, and also in coffee, but in four other articles reduced there was no increase whatever—that was in camomile, boots and shoes, corks, and damasks. There was one article, however, in which there had been considerable increase. He found there were 600 tons of copper ore raised, he believed, by slave labour.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition Benches.) When they came to the other great articles of consumption—those articles with which the Right Hon. Baronet did not deal—they found a large and considerable increase. There was a great increase in the im portation of oranges, India sugar, molasses, tea, currant?, in which no reduction had been made in the duties. In raisins venue. Let that question be discussed on its own grounds, and let the m not be led, step b y step, i nto a pos i t i on from which it would be utterly impossible for them to re cede. He believed that the course adopted would leave the financial affairs of this country in an im proper state. One of the causes of attacks made upon the late Government arose out of the posi tion of the revenue. Numbers were interested in the public credit and looked with a jealous eye to the state of the revenue, and when the present Government came into power they pro posed, in order to remedy the evil, the imposition of the in come-tax. The revenue was sufficient—the evil was carried, and a surplus had been obtained. But would they wish it to be said if, when they had submitted to this burden of three years, he were again starting on the same course, when the Hon. Gen tleman proposed a system which would realise at best a sur plus of only 90,0001. Yet such he believed would be the result of the financial course of the Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman calculated upon 15,000 tons of foreign clayed sugar, producing 42,0001., 5,000 tons of foreign muscovado, producing 116,000/., and 23,000 tons of British clayed pro ducing 375,000/. This made up the 43,000 tons upon which he calculated, and which would increase the consumption far beyond anything ever known in this country. But upon these 43,000 tons depended no less than 911,000/., of which amount, if the increased consumption did not take place, the revenue would of course be deficient. He would suppose that the increase would be half what had been calculated ; still there would be a deficiency of half-a-mil lion. But even supposing the whole were realised, there was one source of expenditure which ought not to be overlooked. Reports had been made by Government Commissioners recom mending the construction of harbours of refuge on the south eastern coast, and it was estimated that four millions would be necessary to complete the work. He contended that no delay ought to take place in commencing those works. It was incum bent on the Government to begin within the year, and half-a million at least would be required for that purpose. He considered that the income-tax being continued for a limited period was a less evil than imposing new taxes. He did not think that voting for the income-tax on this ground was acting at all inconsistently with opinions which he had be fore expressed. He could only say, with regard to the amend ment of the Hon. Alember for Bath, that if the income-tax were intended to be a permanent measure, the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman might be worth consideration, but as the tax was to be for a limited period only, he did not think it was necessary to make any modification in it. Colonel CONOLLY said, that judging from the limited period during which this tax had been in operation he thought it would be good and sound policy to continue it.—( Loud laughter.) In the first place the income-tax relieved the country from the deficit which the Hon. Mcmber for Halifax had warned the Government from falling into again, and relieved them from many evils which they had experienced. The Hon. Member for Halifax appeared very much to bewail the possibility of having so small a surplus as a million and a half. He (Colonel Conolly ) certainly preferred this to a deficit.—( Hear, hear.) The income-tax had been the means of restoring the stability and the credit of the country. It had enabled the Minister to reduce the interest on - the public debt. That was indisputable. He thought that in the position in which he was placed he was called upon to state why he thought the income-tax ought to be continued.—(Laughter. ) He considered that it was a benefit to the country from whence he came.(Loud laughter.) It was a benefit to that country, for it had relieved the great distress of the landed interest there.—( Roars of laughter.) It was a positive and distinct relief, and, up to the present hour, it had 'progressed in abating the distresses of that country. That was distinctly in consequence of the restoration of public credit. There were a great number of landed proprietors in Ireland, friends of his own, who had been distinctly enabled to relieve their estates.— ( The Hon. Gentleman was here greeted with a roar of laugh ter from all parts of the Howe, which completely drowned toe remainder of the sentence.) Why, did Honourable Gen. tlemen consider that no advantage ?—( Continued laughter. ) All these advantages had been produced by the very measure which it was now by Hon. Gentlemen opposite sought to con demn. Hon. Gentlemen might laugh, but he could assure them this was the case. The landed proprietors of Ireland could now give employment to the labouring poor, for those landed proprietors could now raise money at four per cent.— (Great laughter)—whereas formerly they were compelled to pay six per cent.—( Continued laughter.) The income-tax, therefore, had relieved them from their embarrassments.— (The House was here again thrown into convulsions of laugh ter.) He considered that the measure was a great blessing, and was calculated to invigorate industry and promote com merce. Railways had now sprung up, together with other schemes of enterprise, " for capitalists, said the Hon. Gen tleman, " have - now a probability of certain remuneration for their money." (This somewhat novel expression of the Honourable and Gallant Officer drew forth a burst of laughter, which was continued for some time, and renewed again an d aga i n at i n t erva l s .) I t was very easy for Hon. Members to laugh, but he thought their derision would cease when they were compelled to listen.—( Hear, hear, and more laughter.) What had been done during the present session showed that there was a desire in this country to conciliate Ireland, and to do everything which was calcu lated to increase the prosperity of that country— ( Hear, hear, from Sir Robert Peelj—and he believed it would go far to cement the union between the two countries. For these rea sons he would vote for the proposition of the Right Hon. Gem tlernan at the head of the Government. Mr:G. BANKES was not surprised at the light-heartedness which had been exhibited by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, seeing that the cause of it was the prosperity of Ireland. He trusted that that prosperity would go on increasing, and that ere long a sense of justice iu the people of that country would induce them to insist upon bearing, equally with this country, the burden of the income-tax ; for he could assure his Hon. Friend that there were now in various parts of England depressions as serious, and distresses as alarming, as those which had been de scribed by his Hon. Friend as formerly existing in the sister island. The income-tax was imposed at a time when the agricultu ral interest was in a more flourishing condition. The Noble Lord, the Member for London, and the Hon. and Learned Member alluded to, made reference to that interest. They did not let, it pass without remark, though" his Right Hoo. Friend at the head of the Government, and the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor cf the Exchequer, did not in any way allude to it. —( Great laughter. ) And he perceived this with regret, because that such distress existed had been con veyed to the Government in plain terms, and they left it to the Government to apply such remedy as was in their power. The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath spoke of the pre ponderating power of the agricultural interest, though he thought the Hon. and Learned gentleman had not chosen the happiest time for such an allusion.—(Laughter.) But, if such was the fact that they had such influence, permit him to say he was unable to find any trace of it. Why, in the present Budget, everything was given to the commercial and manufacturing interest, and nothing to the agricultural.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member very preperly observed, that the greatest attention was manifested and paid to Manchester and Giasgow, in the important reductions which had been made, which he (Mr. Banks) as an agriculturist (and he believed he spoke the feelings of the agricultural interest) saw with pleasure-- (Hear, hear.) There was no jealousy of the manufacturing interest felt by the agriculturists. And, allow him to say, it was not only since the reductions which had been made that a preponderating influence had been manifested towards the mercantile and commercial interest, but in the increase of ex penditure the same objects were in view. —( Hear, hear.) For why was the navy estimate to be increased by upwards of a million? Why, because in China and the Pacifist there were found new outlets and new opportnnities for extending throughout the world that power they happily possessed. It was to protect their commerce that this million was to be contributed and the agriculturists paid their share of the burden cheerfully. —(Cheers.) Was their army to he re duced? No. Was that because the army was wanted in the agrionitural districts? In the county he represented he did not believe there was a single soldier. The army was re quired for the colonies. But did the agricultural interest com plain of being called to maintain it?—( Hear, hear.) By no means. If then it was said they were a powerful and prepon derating influence, it could not at least be said they were a sel fish one.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for London, who alluded to them, did not hold out to them that en couragement which they might wish to receive in case they did not desire to continue their preponderance for the present Government. The Noble Lord dealt with them more ten derly than he did with other interests, and he alluded with something of triumph to the silk trade. He said that before the monopoly was removed that trade was subject to great alternations of prosperity and depression, but at last the question was settled, but the whole of the silk trade in London were ruined, and if he did not mistake it was while the Noble Lerd was in power, that there was a ball at which the Queen was requested to attend, for the purpose of relieving the distress of the Spitalfields' weavers. The silk trade con sisted of a small number of persons, and they were easily over come, but that was not the case with the agricultural interest, and the ruin of which would include 7-9ths of the people of this country.—(Oh, oh.) That was his belief. The case of the silk weavers therefore,'was no encouragement to the agricul turists. It was admitted the other night, by the Hon. Member for Durham, that if they had a free trade, corn would be some thing dearer than it was at present; for, in the Channel Islands, where the trade was free, it was dearer than it was here, so that they had that advantage from the protection'which was complained of. With regard to the present vote, as it seemed to be agreed to on both sides of the House, he had no choice left but to agree to it, though, looking at the stateof the agricultural interest, he should be sorry to see a permanent in come-tax.—( Hear. ) Mr. WARBURTON said he agreed with the Right Hon. Member for Halifax that if the duties on articles of consump tion were reduced, there would not be any necessity for the income-tax.—( Hear, hear.) He also agreed with him as to the inepolicy of a differential duty on sugar in favour of the West Indies. They were now going to increase that diffe rential duty, because every one knew that almost the whole quantity of sugar from the West Indies came in the state of Muscovado sugar, hut that which came from the East Indies was clayed sugar, so that that was a practical increase of the differential duty of 10s. by 2s. 4d. But he would not have risen on this occasion but for the allusion which had been made to what had f a llen from him a few nights ago, by th e N o bl e Lord and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Now, all he would say on the present occasion was, that he believed the prosperity of the country would be greatly increased by a permanent system of taxation—( Hear, hear)--because a far greater proportion of the tax, when directly levied, would come into the public revenue than when it was levied indi rectly.—( Hear, hear.) And he thought he saw some symp toms of an approach to such:a system, as contradistinguished from the indirect system, during the present debate ; and if the former were adopted, he thought it would be wholly to the advantage of the country, and that the great mass of arti sans and small traders would he particularly benefited by it But then he came to the consideration of in what manner that system of direct taxation should be carried on ? In condemn ing the system of direst taxation, as it was now carried on, he entirely agreed with the Noble Lord in characterising it as very unwise.—( Hear, hear.) The present plan of taxation, as regarded income and property, was to lay on the tax for a short period ; that was making a short annuity and • long one subject to the same degree of taxation. Now, what could be more unjust than that? It was condemnatory of the tax to lay it on for a short period. Now he would shortly refer to the substitute that was proposed by the Hon. Member for Bath. He did not care whether the income was levied for professional toil or manufacturing toil ; but what he would say was this, that the system of taxation was unequal when they levied the same amount of per centage on income gained by professional toil, as on income derived from land. Now the substitute the Honourable and Learned Member for Bath proposed was this—he would take it that they were about to lay an income-tax on for one year, said the Hon. Member for Bath.'On the man who had property in land or the funds, I would lap on a certain per eentage heavier than on the man who derived his income from manufacturing or profes sional toil. Why did he draw these distinctions ? Why it might be for these reasons, that the person who had an in terest in land for the one year, had a reversionary interest after its expiration. Now, to t „ a person in r evers i on was impossible, the plan therefore of the Hon. Member for Bath was utterly impracticable, and the conclusion that he drew from that was, that to lay on an income-tax for a short period was unjust. If they had it at all, they must levy it with justice, and they could not do so without they made it permanent, and to do that-the House did not seem to show any disposition. If he thought there was any chance of the proposition of the Hon. Member for Rye coming to a vote he would support it, but as he saw no chance of that, he should offer no opposition to the present proposition. Mr. R. PALMER thought that, looking at the condition of the agricultural interest, it was not too much to suppose that they ;Wald expect that parhething should have appeared an article of immense consumption, there had been a large in crease, notwithstanding the heavy duty imposed on them. The same increase waa visible in cigars ; sponges, ginger, and other articles. It would be observable that this increase was not attributable to the reduction of the duty, but on account of the great prosperity of the country.—(Great cheering from the Ministerial benches.) Ah, but this prosperity was not in con, sequence of the small reduction of duty, but it was caused by circumstances. They had had, for instance, cheap corn. An increase had been made in the imports to China ; and really, altogether, this prosperity was attributable to causes not at all under the control of the Government. The impost was proposed to be continued, to enable the Government t• make experiments in taxation ; quite a different reason to that assigned three years ago, and it was neeeseasy that they should now form their conclusions upon past experience. Now, this past experience of the last year or two, made it evident that the reductions proposed by the Government were not of a nature to make an important alte ration in the revenue of the country. It was necessary that they shoult satisfy themselves on this point, before they:sanc tioned the continuance of this tax, as they would find it would become a permanency, without their being able to help them selves. He was aware that some Honourable Gentlemen behind him were favourable to its continuance, but he believed the majority of the House held a contrary opinion. Now, he wished to go over the Right Honourable Baro net's statement. In the first place, in reference to the ex penditure: It amounted, last year, to 48,700,000/.; and it was proposed this year to increase it one million. He con curred in the necessity of this increase, for the additional fortifi cation of our ports would require a large expenditure. The navy, as far as he was able to judge, would require augmentation; and, under these circumstances, he could see no reason why the increase should not take place. The Right Hen. Baronet stated the receipts, from ordinary sourees, to be 47,900,0'!0/., and from the income-tax, 9,700,000/., making a total of 57,600,0001. The total expenditure for next year would be 49,700,0001., leaving a surplus of 3,400,0001., and with that snm the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to Ideal. He entirely concurred in the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, that they ought to leave the consideration of the China money out of the qaestion altogether.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet, therefore, very properly omitted it. The Right Hon. Gentleman, with a surplus of 3,400,000/., proposed a reduction of duties to the amount of 3,310,0001., thus leaving himself a surplus of 90,0001. Now, the items upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed an alteration might be divided into two classes. Upon one class he reduced the whole of the duty ; and, so far as that was concerned, there was a total loss. This class included glass, the smaller articles in the tariff, coal, mid the auction duty. With respect to the latter duty, he had not heard any strong argument in favour of its reduction. He regretted that his Right Hon. Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was not in his place, for if he were he believed that it would be found that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had rather gratuitously assumed that he would approve of the selection of the auction duty as a fit item for reduction. He should not say anything in opposition to the proposal with respect to coals, unless it were that he could not reconcile the wisdom of taking „off the duty new, with the reasons alleged for imposing it two years ago. upon these articles there would be a diminution of revenue amounting to two millions, and the Right Hon. Gentleman had not given them the least notion as to how he expected that that deficiency would be made up. He had as sumed an increase of 400,000/. upon the Excise, but he (Mr. C. Wood) did not see the smallest ground for such an assump tion. Again, what right had they to expect a great increase in the receipts from the Customs? He hoped that the existing prosperity would continue and even increase, but there was no probability that it would do so to a sufficient extent. He would not now argue the whole question of the sugar duties—he would not repeat the arguments against the distinction made between slave-grown and free-grown sugar, but would deal with the question solely as one of revenue. He did not, however, understand the 70,000 tons of British clayed 'Agar which the Right Hon. Baronet expected to receive. Great difference of opinion had been expressed by great au thorities in reference to that subject. If the 70,000 tons were East India sugar, then it might be urged that the duty on West and East India sugar having been equalised, and on the faith of that equalisation capital having been sent out to India, large manufactories established, and preparations made for car rying on an extensive trade with this country, the parties who were engaged in such speculations had a right to complain of the conduct of the Government.— ( Hear hear.) On the other hand, if it were true that the East India Ssgar would come in, not as white clayed sugar, hut as something else, then he anticipated that the benefit to the re venue gas scattered to the winds. They were driven to the necessity either of admitting that hardships were inflicted on the East India speculators, or that there would be a loss of revenue to the amount of 160,0001.—(Hear, hear.) It was quite clear that at present the difference of duty upon British colonial sugar was about 40 per cent.; and he believed that if the proposition of I the Government were carried out, it would not be less than 100 per cent, The Right Hun. Gentleman stated that the highest quantity hitherto imp )rted for home consumption was 207,000 tons, and it would be found that 17i pounds per head was the greatest consumption which had ever been known of late years - in this country. -Taking the population at 18,000,000, 210,000 tons would appear to be the maximum amount consumed. The two statements very nearly agreed. Now the Right Hon. Gentleman calculated on an increase of 43,000 tons beyond that amount; and if that increase were not.realised, the Right Hon. Gentleman would lose tone fifth of the income which remained from that source. He an ticipated that the increase was one which could not possibly be obtained within the year. He contended, then, that neither from the' xcise nor from the . Customs was there the slightest reason to expect such an increase in. the :revenue as would enable Parliament to take off the inceme-tax at the end of three years. He had not the slightest doubt that if the sugar duties were dealt with upon different principles, the income derived from that source might be much: increased. They had not as yet derived the full benefit which might be secured from that source. He believed that if the Customs' duties generally were dealt with in a:proper manner, the income-tax might be taken off at the expiration of three years ; but if that were not the case, there was no hope of obtaining such a result, and Hon. Gentlemen opposite might rely upon it that they would have to pay the income-tax all their lives. The result of the present system. was to obtain only the minimum of the revenue. If. the House of Com mons did not interfere to . prevent the continuance of this system of indirect taxation, there was no alternative, but. direct taxation. No other mea ns wou ld ex i st of pay i ng the public creditor except the direct payment of the income-tax. It would be impossible without such a- resource to make the revenue equal to the expenditure of the country. It was im possible to deal with the income-tax without combining with it other questions ; and he wished Hon. Gentlemen to be warned in time as to the consequences of the system which lion. Gentlemen had adopted and were now pursuing. Let the question be fully and fairly discussed . whether .or not the incamatai Was to be ocavidind. the ptrmiaeat mix of re. . _..... in thi :Budget in their behalf, especially when the large sue- the distress which prevailed in many parts of the country. said th a t h e wou ld no t occupy th e H ouse many minutes.— plus'. the Government had i n h and was considered. He re- The Hon. memb er f or w omersetshire had stated, and stated ( Hear, hear)—but he could nut after the spee c h o f t h e Ri g h t gr ett ed very much:that it:appearednot to be, in th e p ower o f t h e t ru l y, t h at he (Sir R o b ert N e u h a d b een t ouc h e d a t the dis- Hon. Baronet avoid expressing his disappointment. After the G eve rnment to relax some portion of that taxation th a t would tresses mentioned by members of the agricultural deputation statement of his Right lion. Friend near him, as to the ge relie re them. He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would which waited upon him.—( Laughter.) Yes, he had been neral financial condition of the country, and after the state not, 'be mistaken in supposing that his measures would do good, touched with the statement made by membe rs of the deputa- ment of the Right Hon. Baronet himself, he could not but not. only for the agricultural but the manufacturing inte- tion. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Palmer) said he did not express express his disappointment that the Right Hon. Baronet h res ti ; ; he thought, however. from what he had seen, that any sympathy with the sufferings of the agriculturi s t s . But, not answered the statement of his Right Hon. Friend 'in the thes greatest disappointment was felt with respect on a previous evening, he had stated most expli c itly his belief whole course of his speech.—( Opposition cheers. ) He (Lord to tine course pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet on Friday that in some parts of the Country severe agricultur a l distress Hosvick) would ask what, according to the Right Hon. Baronet's last. The House was now called upon to renew the income- prevailed. But he thought this distress was in a great degree own fieures, incorrect as he thought they were, what was the tax for three years, and according to the statements of the local, and in a great degree attributable to the influence of the state of affairs ? His Right Hon. Friend had shown what tlamt Ri; ;1 it Hon. Gentleman he hoped that at the expiration of that seasons: I n „ we par t s o f England, during the early part of was upon the figures of the Right Hon. Baronet. It was thin. per is el he would be enabled to give it up. He (111 r. Palmer) last summer, the drought was very great, and the hay and that although they were renewing ;the income-tax for three• tru st ed that the Right Honourable Baronet's hopes would be tur n ip crops h a d su ff ere d t o a very great extent, but yet he years, and that their getting rid of that tax was a prospect re a ne se d, an d that he would find himself correct in that respect. could not say that this distress was universal, for in the no:th f urt h er „d f urt h er re move d, l i k e th e visible horizon on a la r g e Th e income-tax as a permanent one would be an intolerable evil, o f E ng l an d , i n S cot l and, „d i n I re l an d, th e harvest was rather retiring to the same distance from the vision the more Wis din the discussion of the income-tax took place in 1842, he abundant. He wished it was in his power to provide any plain, expect to approach it—( lau h)—for it was now inti rec ollected what he said on that occasion, and that was, that effectual remedy for the distress which prevailed ; but the you ae that it yet be continued for five years instead of thc sit who derived their income from the funds or real pro- House must know it was very difficult to provide a three. might Notwithstanding this, there would still be a surplus in per t' f, had a greater stake in the country than those who de- remedy for local depression, particularly when that the next year of only 90,000/; —(Hear, hear.) At present the rive !el it from professions or manufactures, and that therefore depression was the result of unfavourable seasons. Right Hon. Baronet had a surplus of 3,400 the. r ought to pay a greater rate a duty. He considered the He had heard it stated that he had no sympathy with the and out of that surplus he at once disposed of 31e• Ci°13 L, --- ; inc, sine.tax, as it was now levied, most unjust. He thought, sufferings of the agricultural classes. Now, he begged to re- ( Hear. ) He (Lord H. ) would ask was a surplus of fetn""`" - nn hoc rover, if the proposition of the Honourable Member for mind his lion. and Learned Friend that in his address to that sufficient to calculate upon for the emergencies of this cowl,' • Be' de were carried into operation, it would have the House at the opening of the session, he did express his belief ___( Hear. ) The ye rwhich had passed was one of a great effe et of excluding those who obtained their in- that very serious distress did prevail amongst the agricultural harvest and unusual prosperity ; and was it advisable to run the cost ices from professions or manufactures from the classes.—( Hear, hear.) But that distress last year was par- ,000 e, e s o deal with, balance of the expenditure for the next year so close and fine? ope ration of the tax altogether, and that was never intended. tial, and principally owing to a great drought. The hay hat- --( Hear. If they did so, they would run a great risk of a. He thought that this must be the ca se , f or , unle ss he was this- vest in some districts had been a failure, but that was positive deficiency. Not only that, but the Right Hon. Baro tak ell, if these words were left out of the resolution, the par- confined to certain districts. It had not been felt net. on the most favourable showing, expected only a surplus of ties :assessed under schedule D would be exempted from the in Scotland or in Ireland. From the former coon- 90,000/. Small as that balance was, it was entirely problema ope r ation of the tax. He agreed, however, that those parties try there had been no complaints of the harvest ; tical, and depended entirely upon the raising of a large addi oug .E,t to be charged in a ratio somewhat different from the and in the latter the crops had been very abundant. But if tional sum upon sugar.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that no hog Wers of real property. He could not vot e fora proposition the crops had failed in those countries, he doubted if he could one gentleman, on one side of the house or the other, which would exclude them from the assessment of the tax be called on to provide a remedy against such an occurrence.— would venture to say that such a surplus would be rea alt oe tether. M r. M. GIBSON said, from what h a d f a ll en :f rom the Hon. ( Hear, hear.) H e s i ncere l y w i s hed h e could suggest some lised. The Right Honourable Baronet calculated it upon no mode of relief for l oca l di stresses i n agr i cultural districts.-- Al, !E lber who last sat down, and f rom th e H on. Member for (Hear, hear.) But it would be very difficult, if not impossible less than one.fifth of the whole consumption, and upon no less Di arsetshire, in reference to the alleged neglect of the egri- to do so. One suggestion had been offered to him as a remedy eu Itural interest, he must say, in the language of the Right --namely, that the malt-tax should be repealed. Now he did h a 1 sum i t i t e h a r one I f there inil li o w n e , r t e h a e n r y ec d e i receipt of i n w t h m m e h n t w i n a stehnetreceiptentirely r 0 0 - f that sum, there would be no surplus but a deficiency. When Ben . Secretary of State for the Home Department, with re- believe there were certain taxes that did press heavily upon they consented to the continuance of the income-tax, was it a speot to Ireland, that " concession had been carried to its certain agricultural localities ; but with regard to the satisfactor state of things, that they should have a positive lien-lost limits."—(" Hear," and laughter.) It would be highly malt-tax, he would say, he did not think it was deficiency y instead of a surplus ?—( Hear, hear. )He for one satisfactory if the Hon. Gentleman and hi s friends would point such a one as that the repeal of it would afford thought it most unsatisfactory.—( Hear, hear.) lie like his out the particular grievances of which they complained. The the relief suggested.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel) Right Hon. Friend objected to the continuance of the tax, but, urn- versal remark which ho had heard made was, that the agri- was opposed to the repeal of this tax in the year 1835 for the like him, he did Not see how it was to be dispensed with. cultural interest enjoyed great exemptions from taxation, and same reason, namely, that such a step would not give general They were willing to vote for it as a ten d in distributing the national burdens, particular care had relief to the agricultural classes.—(Hear.) Hear.) It would perhaps votary measure. But they thought that in so be ea taken to throw the largest amount of them on the tom- have given relief to one class of persons, sons, namely, the brewers voting for it, the country was entitled to such an arrangement m serial and manufacturing community, and leaving, in many —(Laughter)--hut general relief it certainly would not give. as to give a well-founded hope that at the expiration of three ire ,leortant items of taxation, the agricultural interest untouched. —(Hear, hear.) Nothing could he mo.e able than the manner Bat he would not dwell on this subject, as the question imme- in which his Hon. and Learned Friend had made his state- years they would be able to get rid of it.—(Hear, hear. ) di ately before them was the income-tax. lie felt a little diffl- ment ; but he (Sir R. Peel) did not think his Hon. Friend 'rhere were two description of taxes which were certain to give great relief without loss to the revenue—he meant,. first, cu ity as to the course he should take on the preposition of the had succeeded in showing that the malt-tax was one which bore the protecting duties.—( H ear , h ear .) N ow , w h at was a pro liH .onourable Member fo r B a th. N or cou ld he go with the with peculiar pressure upon the agricultural districts.--( Hear.) testing duty e—( Cheers. ) I t was a d u t y w hi c h l ev i e d mac h Hionourable Member for Kendal, thou g h h e agree d w i th h i m Neither could his on. Friend say th a t th e i ncome-tax pressed money from the people which never went into the Treasury.— that when a man got rid of his income he got rid of his heavily upon the agriculturists, for this reason, that it was not (Cheers.) For instance, the duty on sugar.—( Hear, hear.)' Treasury.-- in come-tax also.—(Laughter .) There could be no doubt paid by any one engaged in agriculture who had a less income of 'that, and that he supposed was what his Hon. Friend meant. than 3001. a-year.—( Hear, hear.) But again he would say weight Sugar could be obtained from Brazil at 12s. or 14s a hundred --(Laughter.) If a man could be supposed to be immortal, that he admitted that local taxes did press heavily upon certain of an equal quality to colonial sugar, and the people of this country were compelled to use colonial sugar. They were I,nd to have enjoyed his income all his life, he would also have portions of the community ; hut it would be very difficult, if not paid the income-tax in perpetuity. But the more fortunate impossible, for the Government to interfere with it.—( Hear. ) gory, and the money which ought to go into the Trea mi an who got rid of his income in three or four years, would He would say that he did think her Majesty's Government hadand as the Honourable and ;Learned Member for Bath himself said, part went into the pockets of the no t have that cause of complaint, as he would only have paid acted judiciously in defraying the expenses of criminal pro- West Indian, and part was absolutely wasted.—( Hear, hear. ) his income-tax for three or four years. But he (Mr. M. Gib- secutions in some in3tances out of the Consolidated There were other duties which might be repealed with ad son ) could not look on the matt e r in Chia li g ht, It appeared to Fund; but it would be very imprudent if they inter- vantage for financial purposes. He meant those duties which bin 1 that there was a wid e diff erence b etween an income made roperty. feted with those taxes whi c h were l evied for the purpose of were too high, and which encouraged smuggling, and the re by professional and mercantile exert i ons and real p making and repairing roads and bridges.—( Hear, hear.) For Bert still he was not disposed to agree that the trading comma- it was very important that such taxes should be under the duction of which would cause an increased consumption and an improved revenue. The public would gain and the treasury nine' ought to be exempt from paying the income- control and management of the people of those localities who would not suffer. If they were to put the duty upon sugar in. He did not think that offices and trades ought had to pay thetu.—(Hear.) This, however, he would say, u ,en a fair and reasonable footing, and get rid of the distine nnt to pay some amount of income-tax on their re- that it was his firm conviction, that if that House supported ti l on between slave-grown sugar and free-labour sugar, he he ti erns; but the most reasonable course would be, if some plan the measures he had proposed, the ultimate relief that would c, surd be devised to effect it, to capitalise income. He believed result to the community at large would be found to be more lieved that in a financial view the revenue would gain. But he would o further, and say that when they made any reduc tl that had been done in former times. He was informed by his really beneficial than if he had repealed all local taxes, tion on sugar they ought to take the opportunity of equalising Won. Friend the Member for Montrose that it was done in and had paid them out of the Consolidated Fund. the duties wherever the sugar came from. Instead of loosing the property-tax of 1692, and he referred to the statute-book _.( Hear, hear, and cheers.) If his Hon. Friend was of 3 500,000/, as was proposed no, and which was wantonly throw n to End if there could be any powibility of such an enactment, opinion that it would be expedient to repeal the malt-tax, he away, the revenue would gain. The protecting duty on cheese and and he found his Hon. Friend was correct. He found there certainly must be embued with a sympathy for a peculiar butter, and other articles, might be abolished with advan th at, in trade and manufactures, th e capit a l employed was class.—( Laughter. ) But the repeal altogether of the duty on tage. There were other duties of extravagant rates, and great vedue.d. Here the duty was computed on the interest which glass and on raw cotton would be found, eventually, to be cost in collection, such as the duty on tobacco, which ought to would be received on such capital. Thus, if a man's goods, most beneficial to the agricultural classes.—( Hear. ) Indeed have been considered on this occasion.. —(Hear, hear.) The or mill, or machinery, was valued at 1001., the interest of the he could not conceive a class who would be more benefited last mentioned duty was exorhitant and was productive of in capital was computed at five per cent., and the person paid on by these two measures than the agricultural labourers. When finite smuggling. The Right Hon. Baronet would have done an income of 5/. Now, in 1692, te Government was in the heavy duty should be removed from that material made of great benefit to the country if he had dealt on t an p of great want of money, and unwilling to remit any portion cotton-wool, which was generally worn by the labouring agri- common sense—that is, of free trade.—(Cheers and a laugh. ) of trlxation. At that time the re was ac t ua ll y a t ax on births culturists, they would then be enabled to purchase their clothes mart iages and deaths, on widowers and bachelors ; yet even at a low rate, and surely that would be a boon. Then space of three years, he would, be able to make a surplus then it was not thought necessary to put the same tax on in- with respect to glass, surely when the duty upon an article so And if he did not do so, how could he expect that, in the short sufficient to dispense with the income-tax ?—(Hear, hear. ) come as was imposed on real property, N ow , if that was done necessary to the comfort of all classes should be reduced from But he did not object to the vote the Chairman held in his before, why could it nut be done again ? He thought it would Is. to 3d. or 4d., was it not clear that the landlord, theeenant, hand. He only took that opportunity of saying he did most be a very reasonable proposition to move for a Select Com- the peasant, and the labourer would derive benefit from it ? rnittee to inquire whether some amount, and, if any, what (Hear, hear. ) With respect to the proposed reduction in the the income-tax was to be accompanied. The people of this strongly protest against the measures by which the renewal of amount ought to be placed on trades, professions, and offices, auction duties, he begged that the House would not take a country were going to be burdened with a most oppressive tax, and also to inquire whether some less vexatious and inquisi- hasty view of that, until they had the proposition fully before and they had a right to expect that it should be accompanied tonal mode of laying it on professions might not be suggested? them.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord opposite had He thought that met the whole case. Disapproving as he did taunted him, in respect to this tax, with repealing a that at the expiration of three years there would be a probabi by measures which would hold out a reasonable expectation of imposing the same amount on income as on property, he tax which nobody had objected to. But he hoped the lity of their being released from it.—(Cheers.) should support the proposition of the Hon. Member f o r Bath, Noble Lord would read the opinions of Sir Henry Parnell Sir JOHN TYRRELL assured the House that at that late but he should have preferred letting the present resolution and the Chairman of the Stamps and Taxes Department, upon period of the evening he would detain them but for a very few pass, and when the Bill was in Committee, the Hon. and this subject. He (Sir R. Peel) would move this evening for minutes. It seemed to be the general consent that this was to Learned Member might have taken the opportunity of pro- certain returns in reference to the fees paid at certain auction he the final and closing debate as far as the agricultural interest posing by way of amendment some practical plan like that he sales, and then the Noble Lord would see if it would not be a had alluded to. material benefit to that branch of commerce to have it proceed was sennr asonable claim upon the attention of the thoughternhede had;ande, as a humble representative of that body, Mr. MILES said he had not on a former occasion objected in future unclogged by any tax.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble House. He must say that, notwithstanding the able speech of to the income-tax, because he felt that unless it was imposed Lord quarrelled with him (Sir R. Peel), because the army and the Right lion. Baronet that night, and the three gents' could could - not possibly be ally reduction: of taxation, that navy estimates were so high, but he hoped to be able to satisfy Sp could benefit the country ; nor could any great reduction be the House and the Noble Lord that those esti- Hon. Baronet taken a most able and comprehensive view °fever) , made unless it was kept on for some time longer. If the income- mates were not larger than the present necessities eech of the previous night, in which not only had the Right interest in existence, except that great interest of wh n i s c t h he tax gave additional vigour to the industry of the country, and of those branches of the public service demanded.—( mtheu say,i at the same time enabled them to relieve some of the direct However, upon this subject he would not dwell, as it would be that he participated in the opinion of those who g burdens on agriculture, he believed it would be a blessing— very ungrateful in him to quarrel with one whose support he that that interest had been hardly dealt with. _lt was some Hear.) (Laughter) — aye, a perfect blessing—(Great laughter)—if it understood he was to have in his proposal for a renewal of the was an extremely humble representative. Still, be what ominous that the 14th of February —viz., St. Valentine's was imposed only for a limited time.—( Laughter.) If it income-tax for a further limit; and, therefore, he would say D ay —(n aug h ter y_ was a most unfortunate day for the was proposed to make it permanent, he for one would no more upon that subject.—(Laughter.) When the Noble agricultural interest, because, when the Right Hon. Baronet say, No ! He did think that the Right Honourable Lord had first said he should oppose that measure, he (Sir R. on the 14th of February, 1834, was paying his addresses Baronet had introduced this measure with the best Peel) should confess he was most agreeably surprised at hear- to that interest ho said—(Continued laughter)—and the lan intentions, but he must say he had not considered all the in- ing the Noble Lord say, at a subsequent period, that he would guage that he used upon that occasion would not, he was terests connected with the question. He found commerce and vote for the continuance of it— ( Laughter) —and he begged to sure, be tedious to the House..—(Hear.) At any rate it manufactures both flourishing, at least as compared with the assure the Noble Lord that, great as was his surprise at would be intelligible to the country, a n d wou ld . two or three years past ; but he f oun d agr i cu l ture i n a de- hearing this announcement, it was not greater than the plea. let them know what they were to expect from pressed state, and yet there was no attempt indirectly to re- sure he now felt at having the honour of his Lordship's support any future Minister. It would . , show, too, on what grounds niece agriculture at all. He was not one of those to stand up —( Renewed laughter)—and let him add the hope that nothing the agricultural interest had been led to entertain those hopes in that House and ask the Right Hon. Baronet to take off the he had said that evening would have the effeeteof shaking the which he regretted to say had been blasted entertainer her Majesty's malt -tax, for, in the first place, his surplus would not allow it; Noble Lord's resolution.—(Continued laughter.) Perhaps, Government who, had not felt it their duty to show their feeling and, in the next place, he did not wish that the agriculturists after all, if the Noble Lord and his colleagues were sitting upon for the agricultural interest of the country in the shape of their should monopolise the whole of the reduction that could be those benches—( Pointing behind him amid much laughter)— financial interest. He held in his hand a sufficient proof to made. But when the Right Hon. Baronet was asking for the his Lordship would find that, no matter from what source de- justify the asurculturists in their expectations, and he hoped continuance of a tax which amounted to 3,400,000 t., he did rived, the addition of the 5,200,000/. of the income-tax a very it would receive the best attention of Hon. Gentlemen oppo think that agriculture should be considered as well as comfortable thing—(Loud laughter) —and would gravely site. The Right. Hon. Baronet was a very difficult bird to lay manufactures and commerce. He thought, considering the declare that that tax was for the public benefit, and ought salt upon his tail--( Laughter)—he could not expect those. party who immediately supported the Right Hon. Baronet, to be continued for a further limit.—(Loud laughter. 1 e Hon. Members would think over the obtuseness of any agri and the small remission which had been made in direct Ma- Certainly they might have a discussion in that Committee, cultural member whose hand was confined to the plough tion, a great benefit might have been conferred on agriculture, when the Hon. Member for Kendal brought forward his mo- and whose conversation was of oxen. But still he did think and on the nation in general, by diminishing the county rates. tion—( Laughter)—when the Hon. Member for Bath brought that the Right Hon. Baronet had used the agriculturists Great good would also be done by placing them under a better forward his motion—(Laughter)—or when his Hon. Friend with extreme hardship after taking the cheers and confidence of system of management. Agriculture was greatly depressed, the Member for Somerset brought forward his motion.—( Con- that interest at Cambridge. It was glaring, not only from the and agriculture was not relieved ; but he must say this, that tinued laughter.) He certainly thought that the House had language of the Right Hon. Baronet, but from the fact that a he gave credit to the Right Hon. Baronet for such remissions seen enough from the preliminary debate to come to a right Noble Lord was translated to the other side, for no other of taxation as those on raw materials, on cotton, and on glass. conclusion upon the subject. Then, wiih respect to funded services But he did think that the Right H on . B arone t wou ld a l so property, it was said that it was a great injustice to tax it, as tur erv al in than those which he he had rendered to the agneul terest. have turned an attentive ear to th e remons t rances a dd resse d to the country had entered into an engagement with regard to it Several How. Mements—What Noble Lord? him, he hoped in a proper form and a proper spirit—not by that it should not be taxed ; and when Lord Sidmouth attempted Sir JOHN TYRRELL alluded to Lord Ashburton. He Noble Lords or Members of th a t Hou se , b u t by,farmers, know- to introduce such a measure in 1803, Mr. Pitt got up and said would take the liberty of reading one or two short ex ing and practically exercising the trade of agriculture. When that it would be a violation of the public faith to allow funds raised tenets, expressing, as they did, what that body had a right to they stated their depression to him it could not be but all on a distinct engagement that they should be free from all he Right Hon. Baronet had objected that no meant be T the past feelings of the Right Honourable Baronet must claims, to be subject in the same manner as other property to bad been suggested for relieving this interest, but they had relied be touched.—(Laughter.) They have nothing but their the burdens of the country. He found it necessary, therefore, upon his devising some measures for this purpose. He did not representations, and the voices of their own Members in that to draw a distinction between permanent and temporary in- say that any direct remission of taxes would have such an effect, House, and he had hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would comes and the property entitled to claim exemption. But but still he thought some commiseration ought to have been have been touched by their statements. But he wa s sorry to the opening up of that subject would induce a discussion expressed for the sufferings of the agricultural body. He say that their hopes had been dashed from them. Though which he was anxious then to avoid. But he could not resist quoted from a debate which took place on the 14th of February. hey contributed to the property-tax no less than 2,400,000/ n saying that in the mode of testing the exemption in such a case, 1834, on the subject of the Budget, brought forward by Lord out t of an amount of 4,900,0901., yet no one single tax had the circumstances attending the scrutiny would be just as Althorp. On that occasion the Right Hon. Baronet had been touched from which they derived any immediate benefit. stringent and as inquisitorial as any that had taken place under made use of the following expression—" It was admitted that The whole remission was given only to manufactures and the operation of schedule D. They would have to go into there was the sum of 1,200,000/., w hi c h m i g ht b e appropr i a t e d Commerce; by that agriculture would n o doubt' be exami na ti ons f or th e purpose o f d eterm i n i ng the nature of to the reduction of taxation. It would be difficult to show how indirectly benefited, fo r h e had always maintained that the property on which the duties were to be levied, and as that could be employed se as to give relief to the agriculturists. joool. no interest could b e b ene fi te d w ith ou t producing he had already said, a new inquisitorial tribunal would be but if it could be shown that relief could be given, the , an effect on all. But the only time the Right established, much more onerous than that which had been He'could ought undoubtedly to be appropriated for that purpose. h Honourable Bareuet the other night mentioned the agri- complained of ; and he would just ask the House if, from the say that relief ought not to be given at t t h t e bon e t xpc o n . se o t f o the interest was when ho announced the remission of the very nature of the tax, it could be otherwise ? He very much public credit, but if it could be given w . ..i cultural ' injury Right But they were not asking him, as landlords, doubted, in the case of such taxes as glass and cotton, whether public credit he should most certainly advise it. The auction duty. . of taxation,as he believed it was the land- the sum remitted could be said to be abstracted from the per- Hon. Baronet concluded by expressing this opinion—," He for any reduction , this . . lords alone who would benefit by remission, because when manent interest of the country, because the remission of such hopedthe Noble Lordwould keep his eyes open to the opinions agricu ' ltural produce was sold there was no tax uon it. It taxes gave an impulse to the creative powers of their trades expressed in his Majesty's speech with regard to the agricul was for the tenants he spoke; and fronttheletters received, he could assure the Right Hon. Baronet there was a they might escape that tax by not consuming the articles ; but not allow the session to t erm i na t e w ith ou t giv in g general gloom in the counties around the metropolis, who of in respect to the articles reduced—let them say cotton and effect to them." After language of that kind they course had had an opportunity of reading his _powerful speech g l ass —th ey were ar ti c l es o f manu f acture of which they were had a right to expect that something would be done for the other night. H e cou ld assure th e Ri g ht Hon. Gentleman a component part, and by the increase of labour in which, the them. They relied upon his wisdom, his acuteness, and his that the greatest despair prevailed in these counties. They,had workman would be enabled to buy absolutely necessary articles ingenuity, and they expected that before that time some relief looked to him to protect their rights and now their distresses as wearing apparel, cheaper than before, thus amply compen. would have been afforded. Many causes had been assigned were passed over without vouchsafing a single farthing of sating for the general pressure of the income-tax on the corn- for the agricultural distress, but he believed is the prevailing relief after imposing nth them a tax of upwards of 2,000,0001. inanity. What was it that he would propose afterwards ? Why, opinion amongst agriculturists that the distress, whether All he could say was at agreeing as he gene ra lly ( lid with that a person having 5,0001. a year should contribute founded in mistake or not, was attributable to the course much that was said on both sides of the House—(Great about 140/. towards the maintenance of the credit of measures which had been introduced into that Houses laughter) —he yet certainly could not sit down with that kind of the country, and he would ask them that day, not merely by the Right Honourable Baronet, tending as they had of spirit which would tamely submit to everything a Minister to increase the expenditure, but to make an experiment, and done to depreciate the value of agricultural . produce. chose to dictate,--( Hear, hear. ) Even if he stood alone he if that should not succeed—if the country should not derive any Th e lan g u age of Lord Ashburton, also, on the occasion when would at a future period give the House and those county mem- immediate benefit from it, they might afterwards reconsider corn was proposed to be introduced from the Channel islands, hers who had been returned hy thei r consti- their present determination. He (Sir R. Peel) was asked by was worthy of note. The Hon. Member then read an extract tuents for asserting certain principles which he the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonport (Sir from a speech by Lord Ashburton, deprecating the introduction hoped and tru s t e d . hb ey wou ld car ry out—he would ►give them G. Grey), if he could give any assurance that the income-tax of so much corn from Canada, the greater part of which, he at a future p er i o d th e oppor t un it y o f s t a ti ng whether in this would expire in three years? He answered to that, as he did said, came, no doubt, from the United States. He did not. great remission of taxation the agricultural interest was or was on the other night, that he calculated that the taxes removed mean to argue that any conclusive opinion was there ex— not to be benefited. Before he sat down he merely wished to would increase the consumption of other articles; but he was pressed; but if the agricultural interest were under the im p osing the in- free to say then, :in experiments of that kind, three pression that they were suffering from an t d ha a t n ea e u r s , should be axe come-tax again he should give to the tenant-farmer a right of years was rather a limited period—rather short lf a reason why great disappoin r ther a h . s tm st e a n t t ed b the g agricultural inte appeal. At present they were taxed on half the amount of experiment, and he would own that he would d for himself pressed, and great grievance their rent, but had no appeal against the charge, whether they have extended it to five years. He had good round enter- measures of y the rest, in consequence of the . . . gRi ht Hon. Ban made any profit or not. He therefore wished them to have tainine a rational expectation that at the end of three years he ronet. Now, he had . no hesitation in saying, also, that he. had been hardly dealt with by that right of appeal allowed them. Agreeing on the whole would be at liberty to discontinue the income-tax. He told the thought the agricultural interest with the principle of a property-tax, he would sit down, hoping Right Hon. Gentleman that his ground was this. The u- P O P the Noble Lord the that this measure would be greatly and generally beneficial, lation of the country was greatly on the increase, and the con- often had a bone to pick with the Noble Lord on this subject. the Noble Lord wassupported and surrounded, yet at the same time expressing hi s b e li e f th a t i n bringing it sequent consumption of articles paying duty would be greater . Those by whom habit ofsaying that forward the agricultural interest had be en perfectly overlooked. The population of the country was on the increase. They had were in the .. the hen agricultural interest accused that Mr. V. SMITH thought the agricultural Members ought a vast amount of surplus capital, and by the application was predominant, and agriculturists had even _ been _ d the Hon. t o t a ke a straightforward and decided course, and should 'not of that capital to various branches of industry their manufac- night—. God knows how fruitless ? " excl i the Right Hon. follow at the heels of any Minister. H e b e li eve d t h e agricultural tweeswordd increase ; they should have an increased demand for Member—with having great interest with go the Noble Lord Ba condition was one of great distress, but they should have voted labour, and the demand for labour would increase the consumpe ronet.—( Great laughter. ) A few years a rve the agricultural for his Hon. Friend when he brought f orwar d a motio n for in- tion of the country. They would find that the trade of last himself said that he thought it right to Lord g shook his head ; • onto the burdens which peculia rly affected agri- year had greatly advanced, if they looked at the declared value interest a predominance. The Noble (L d laughter)... he culture. He admitted that there were some bur- of 1844 as compared with the declared value of 1843. In 1843 but, after a diligent search Loud though his me.. dens which peculiarly affected agriculture, in the shape the declared value of the exports was . 44,812,000/. ;in 1844 could assure the Noble Lor d , the be • erfect, there were several H e _ of local taxation, but Hon. Members opposite were the declared value was 50,650,000n,being an increase over mory might imp all silent regarding them, except the Hon. Gentleman who h a d d ec l ared va l ue of 1843 of 6,838,000/. in the course of the year. neurable Gentlemen on b ot h sides of the House wh o although having made so many on just sat down. Yet a most valuable paper had laid for two With a surplus capital applied to the internal improvement had heard the declaration, that his memory should fait years on the table of that House, descriptive of the extent to of the country, he thought it a rational prospect the subject it was not Onsurprisingbringing up the report on the address, which local taxation was carried on. He would not give to that at the end of the three years there would him.—(naug t l4 l ;r.) - t h e Noble Lord said :—" Sir, at the times agriculturists the same answer as they usually received when be such an increase of revenue that the House might in the year 1 Bill passed, I stated my belief that it mug they complained of their burdens,—to cultivate the land better, be safely asked not to conti 'nue the income-tax for a when the Re f orm predominance to the landed interest ;and al— reply he thought they had very great reason to longer period. The Right Honour a ble Gentlem an the necessar ily give a it may be deemed that such predominance has beera the same that they could not] cultivate the land without Member for Halifax might not have formed opinion though unduly given, I still think that a predominance its We were now about to saddle ourselves with a per- that he did, but he begged the Right Hon. Gentleman to con- . capital. somewhatour of that interest tends to the stability of the general instin t tax and it would be idle in him to rail against sider that if they should have a falling off in the sugar duties manent proper y- , fens of the country." The Noble Lord had shown by his it, for under the circumstances of the case he feared it was of the next year, they had a surplus revenue to make up for the tu 1 but too necessary. The Hon. Member for Kendal had g i ven def i c i t. Those were the grounds on which ade his language this session that the agr i cu l tural interest had nothing h e m many to expect at his hands.—(H ear, hear.) The Right Hon. Ba— reasons for the continuation of the income-tax, which he con - ca l cu l at i on. T hey were a b out to take them o ff manufacturing ronet (Sir R. Peel) had stated that he was touched with the fessed were to him wholly unintelligible. The Hon. Member of the raw materials which pressed on the admitted, with the representations made to him by the deputation from the agri— for Donegal had given reasons for its continuance, which were interest of the country; and though he titiit o e n a some part of the culturists. As there was no effect, it must have been A perfectly intelligible, because he would not have to pay it.— Noble Lord, that there might betha loss the Noble Lord's political very light touch ; yet he had no doubt that when a ( Hear, hear.) The prosperity and peace of Ireland revenue, still he could not agree sy l a follow that a reduction of dissolution took place, that great and important interest would had been adverted to ia the speech from the throne, economy, for it did not necessar o i fythe revenue. He must say re-appear in the shape of advertisements and addresses to con.. and had been since adverted to in language of taxation would cause a redutionoo this ; point were most extra. stituents.—( Laughter.) An Hon. Member below him (Mr.: triumph by Hon. Members opposite ; and if such were the case, the opinions of the Noble Lord se that a reduction of duty would Miles) had signified his intention of testing the sincerity of he saw no reason why the income-tax should not be extended ordinary. He shoul t d be s to upp :factures of the country ; and this those who professed sympathy with the agricultural interest, by to Ireland.—(Mr. Shed here gave marks of dissent which create an increase i c a rease in the demand for labour. Surely the bringing forward a motion on behalf of that great expiring inn caused general laughter in the House. )—He thought the Hon. would lead to an in Baronet had, with his usual adroitness, barely alluded to the computation of a loss of r evenue on certain articles could be well serest.—(Laughter.) It would then be seen whether the agrie as,therefore,goodreason to hope that, by reducing culturists were to have no share in the taxation of the country. 450 articles in the tariff upon which duties were reduced or borne. The t r t eL ton they would enable the manufacturers to He could only say, that if no other Hon. Member should do so. abolished ; but the House should recollect, that from these 450 the duty with other nations ; and that competitekn' would tom- he intended to give notice of a motion to extend the operation articles the revenue lost 320,000/.—( Hear, hear.) He was comp • etetemanifold for that which would be lost - to the revenue of the property-tax to Ireland. He thought at any rate that of opinion that the Right lion. Gentleman should have, some pensbae repeal of the duty.—( Hear, hear.) It might have been he would have the support of the Chancellor of the Exchequer days prior to his statement, laid upon the table of theintended by oss t ible, as he stated on Friday, to avoid the continuance of the in such a motion. In fact that Right Hon. Gentleman hat House a list of those articles which he from p income-tax. But ho did not say one word in favour of the himself some years ago advocated a similar proposition. The to affect by the proposed measure. He could not refrain constituencies of continuance beyond the three years which he had proposed: Hon. Gentleman here quoted an extract from a speech of Mr. saying, that considering how many of the abolition of He was far from saying that they ought to make it a per- Goulburn, in which that Right Hon. Gentleman advocated the Hon. Members were affected by this diminution o r r re._ ( Hear, manent tax during peace. But he hoped that during peace they policy of extending the income-tax to Ireland as well as En.. duty, the House had been rather taken by surp would not trouble would not break its efficiency as an instrument in land. He (Sir John Tyrrell) thought it behoved_ th a t hear.) At this late hour of the night he ht time of war, b making too man exemptions from its appli- House to extend the tax. to Ireland. The R the House with an) further observations. Gentleman that to- cation.—(Hear .) atpresent much less burdensome Honourable Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon Sir R. PEEL assured the Right Hon. It was 11 table of the House • think might thatthere machinery by which to cull the on the morrow or next day he would lay_ hle of the articles now included that be true with reference to the year 1816 ; but they would find any very urgent demands for its repeal in tax. 'This might of the poor-laws in Ireland, papers which would spee ifVhe w o it was proposed to remove the duty. the course of the next three years. He was convinced that, now they had ot the machinery He thought it was unjust in the tariff, and on vvhic could be no difficulty. lly that a remission of duty would take looking to the effect of the taxes repealed, and the danger to and there He had stated genera place ' of manufacture. Surely th e Ri g h t which our manufactures were exposed by the competition of that such a man as Lord Hertford should be allowed to extract the raw materials in Hon. Gentleman did not expect him to go through th e w h ole rival nations, there were the moat urgent reasons for the 30,000/. or 40,0091. a year to spend in Paris or Naples, with. 450 articles ? He thought by so doing he would have w ear i e d repeal of the taxes on glass and cotton. In repealing those out paying any tax whatever. the House, and the mention of many of the arti c l es wou ld taxes it was his firm conviction that they would confer great The Marquis of GRANBY, who spoke from beneath one 4 rather have provoked laughter. He was sorry to h ear f rom hi s benef i t upon all classes of her Majesty's subjects.--( Hear.) the side-galleries, .and who was very indistinctly h ear d , ,wit Hon. Friend that he bad considered him i nsens ibl e to Lord HOWICK (who rose amidst cries of " Chair, chair"), ere un d - tood to express a hope that the Right Hon. Baronet a ~_