The Sun. — London, England, 1851-04-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, terialB uPon W hich we should legislate; and such remarks L aSt hat to whi c h I have adverted only prove that itis aier to dra n i up a saisticil than is to govrn • eltind•—(tlear, heart) Go t t a o b le a farmer it who pays e 7 s. la ti le ou are p nd for poor-retes (and I am sorry to say there book whichl°ch), and tell hies that you have got a blue far_proves, that instead of 7s. in the poun.d, tali yon only pay 13. 8 1 3. in the You that that may be pound; and he will te 84 1 . economy, but that it is ntoilt com mon sense nor E ng li sh j ust i ce.—( H aar, hear. ) I N ve „ 110 W placed before to 11 else three measures — r e measures — uno bj ect i ona bl e measures —for the 1 4 1 3a i t! 510 11 of t axat i on to the only interest in the country en, according to her Majesty's Ministers, is atiffer i tt th ong' and th e only interest iu the country which B udget of her Nla'est 's Ministers is omitted. (Flear t 2 war.) There is a fourth measure, not so ex i s ' o "Te, but which would be receive:] with the greatest et ur by- the firmers of the United Kingdom; and that a euld b „ an e the detaching from the miscellaneous expenses are now w „ i 'll the relief of the poor the expenses which dam razed enorely incurred fer the establishment charg, s. ea "zed salaries under the poor law system at this • t amount in Great Britain to betvv:en 500 0001. and 600,000/. There is a pertieular mode in which one 4 . 85 of officers are paid—namely, by a poundage on the antes they collect, which renders it impossible to make uliabsolutely correct estimate under that head. But I te (tewersulsZ safely the amount of the salaries paid ofusi. a miniter the po , -,r-law under the bfia o rd . and all novel appointments, let it be b s eo are the cousequences of your new law—l think Gre at safely take the iirneunt of those salaries for atßritain at about 550,0004 The analogous ex tiaTare„lli Ireland would be about 180,0004 On the whole, ?0 O 44(3 re, you would have to deal with a sum of about let,coo. oe.or 750,000/. NG that would be a relief corn ea- Lee is it self, and from its particular character cal the 0 _ obtain great favour in the eyes of the . occ h up w ie e rs . des erves a ell• I believe that it is a measure wmc 11 v ia , "'es the consideration of her Majesty's Ministers. d 0 r.," are the objections to it? It cannot be said Jett charges that land has been inherited sub bag them; and neither can it be said that it been purchased subject to them.—(llear, hear.) te They are a es:ne cearges imposed withiu the recollection of se ueembers of this House; they are charges that the uld re ne ver have b een p l ace d on l an d if t h e re p ea l o f With thec-lawa had taken place in the year 1830 —(Hear.) en t i a e exception of that vast sum expended for the dotenance and o u td oor re li e f o f t h e poor, with which I 4 % wader p u rpose to deal, th ere i s no t I s . o f t h e ra t es l ev i ' d ie e • e Poor-law that is not of novel origin; and I must Ira th e : Press on the House—indeed, I would appeal to bl artitcandour, whether they believe, with respect to the ° de of local rates that exist the taxation for re , tu tu !h oe on of voters, for vaccination of children, and a ,owiraild other miscellaneous circumstances, that the to : 8 and occupiers of laud would ever have submitted Ilion at remorseless taxation had they not been in posses ef t hat protective system, the merits of which I do 'gee want to enter upon uow, but the favourable copse- Iti e e " of which to that class you all acknowledge ? melt s ' ile ar.) That reason alone is one that ought to o ey e. 115 co nsider these subjects with a very favourable Ph o .• "wve now placed betore the House four measures, a just, and beneficial, especially to the fe.mers, ree i 7 t u a m ight have been in the power of the Govern ledto bring forth—of the Government that acknow +LOß the distress of these men in the speech from 171-" ' Thr eae; the Government that introduces a Getl,;get including one of these measures ; the brie meet that withdraws that budget, and s oe g s forward another omitting that remedial mea -001 Yet such is the course they pursue towards the Y.suffering class, while all other classes of the cora '''re.yueity, _ whom they devote the whole of their surplus Ca: eoB , are in a state of unprecedented prosperity.— c on ,ar, hear.) From the beginning of the session the hzie ullet of the Administration has been an aggregate of li era el allea never, I think, equalled in the annals of Per th, e at- The Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln, va..other night, seemed to imagine I was interfering h e r a measure of which he had given notice for the re of the farmers. First, I hope it is not my habit or t l i t a o Per to interfere with the position any gentleman has hop'th a , ll and I can assure-my Hon. and Gallant Friend 1, 5 2 is the last person I would interfere with, as I here the greatest respect for him, and that no one is 4 '; e entitled than he is to advocate the cause of the Sad eler—ar, hear.) But I would appeal to my Hon. Gallant eie_ Friend whether, in the object I have in antic to-night, I have in any way interfered with the k y le " he has given. The time will come when, legiti of _ th- ^IIIY Hon. and Gallant Friend will ask the opinion i t e 'douse on the question. When that time comes ago add another to the anomalies which so much tbocnnd about the conduct of the Government respecting that and interest. The farmers have complained 40 they are called on to pay a tax for profits which „ o ecue Mv Hon. and Gallant Friend has tvbreposed that . the - schedule which levies that tax te ll no longer be levied. I should have thought 1,3 Government would have met the , difficulty e Y Pro pos in, that the profits of the farmers should P r o o in the same manner as those of all trades a scertained. —(Hear, hear.) I should be extremely rd if they had made that proposition, because the con :-tlilence would be that there would be a public demon tretion to her Majesty's Ministers of the fact of which reY seem incredulous, nam . ely, that no farmer 411 d• at this moment is making any profit at -(Hear,ell. :tsar.) But, as Ministers h ave not proposed to ascer ie the profits of the farmer in the same way as the P▪ rofits of all o th er c l asses —(Hear, hear)—my Hon. and Gallant Friend may most legitimately put it to the lattice of the House—of Hon. Gentlemen opposite— that ol. th e farm ers are not permitted to prove that they do 11 1 4 make a pro fi t f rom the trade they are carrying on, they may b e re li eved from the preposterous arrangement, „",e, co ntinuaace of which i s now anticipated. I have taxes t o w h at I believe to be the incidence of various onthe farmers. The strain is upon their energies; ssei 00e hey are a c l ass w h om t hi s House are bound most to atei,4,l%—(Hear, he ar .) I b eg t h e H ouse dispassion 'er a moment to take into their consideration who ea e l ae men are of whom we are in the habit of speaking ee re tluently and lightly. I speak not of their numbers, " e ult of th • • et the -tar virtues. Whatever may be the opinion tees," douse as to the policy or impolicy of those laws 4alahug the entrance of foreign agricultural produce fe ee leh You abrogated, remember always this, that the ha ve were not the framers of those laws, though they qr.. ° been their victims.—(llear, hear.) Remember-1 yelercat t heriouse to remember—the position in which, by eve le,ialation, right or wrong, politic or impolitic, you hbiteeP'gace d that body o f th e commun ity. Time, which th e -r ought to th em a d vers it y, h as a l so b roug ht t o them kteleceasion of showing to the nation, of which they important p ortion, that the y p ossess gr eat 0 14 2 8 . Reviled an d tra d uce d as t h e y we re durin g IttiaioCen°tehropt rise controversies, they have shown groat energy ; they have shown skill and frugality; pa le see W hich is n ever ex h auste d , an d perseverance which comb eo 7er baffiled.—(Ch eers .) These are the men who e n , bleb ard to yo u for your sympathy. These are th tei g , "se sufferings were recognized by their Sove tereni wh ich gave them hope—whose sufferings were at• h et ; e .. d to be remedied by the Minister in a manner, t eliee r " s light, imparting at least some expectations of eentest These arc the men who, in the extraordinary deet ed ill which they have been engaged, the unprece- S whiruggle whi c h they have had to encounter, andanve bb they hav e been involved session after session, than' ei t he speech es o f t h e Ri g h t H on. G ent l eman t h e tusje 3t - , ° r of the Exchequer—by the speeches of her the et Y 8 'misters in either House of Parliament—by befo re vee ces of eminent members of the economic party t_ ale ; Bl lit tur 2, been constantly encouraged to believe that a It ivest at ulg price for their toils, their industry, their t °}lli men t of capital, was inevitable, nay, was rapidly lon.l(Cheers)—that they had only Ploy ." to • to wait a little invest more capital in rare manures : to em eesgTuro enterprise in their business, to exercise more oal d i ta a ad the inevitable result would be that . they . mtlstr -" sedan ample and sufficient return for their in ho L their capital.—(Hear.) These arc the men ye a) ! b c Y Year find themselves in a worse position, "aPitet ate year find that the more they invest their e s i e lergi ea u t e ho lc i es is their return, the . more they exert their ben teas profitable and satisfactory are the con the re ees 'se(Ele th aucell ar, hear.) These are the men of . whom th o r of the Exchequer told us the other night of ha te ... E l were not ri tt li arn to look any . longer . for assistance . Partin cut, for countervailing duties, or remission tw o t ; „ , 44 w ee , but surely they are the men, the . ebtto lessen " ce our legislation respecting whom should er the our h at the Market °f unlimited Production e , tit t i o en permit them to with every ad -4„, age, and ~ united com -.axed b r ead, to 'When the rest of face ommunity are asking fixed labour allow them at least to meet . with un t re it ad. ----(Oheers.) I want the House, just be e Journ )(attic: tl:ltettiaoerbee_as--r teuetfore we go to our constituents—to he . fermers of England the c!sst . i_r 11. ) the will find sympathy and justice lless ask - • e e - ""Nt11 1: 11- th e House to consider, in a spirit of fair t„"cfideeee aPPeal to gentlemen opposite with as much conei der as to those who sit on this side—l ask them te v e eet to that all that has occurred,this session with re in--set class ask her Majesty's Ministers to , „ • I J't ei g h t s ;uat has occurred within the period ot the 1 3 14 tetleie e ee ke; land if they cannot reconcile its incon e to the ir'conscience and reason, I hope they will l° -manly U g h,eno ugh, and even candid and kind `Rive the m t° a cknowledge the justice of the case. et kultie all the advantage which a' recollection of the 000 8 , that distracting circumstances necessarily s ,leat •" ke lled• I am willing to forget the past if her Als Ministers eiet t - a suanisters will only recur to the feelings with Will t he eetehi commenced the session of Parliament, and i'lltio 4 - 7 to fulfil the purpose they announc h e a d ve their is seen 0 achi eving, —(Hear, hear.) But I not Potai • ' thou g h I hon I I ll see a disposition to re coil `e that th %t er it i nvitation . I don ' t know what gentlemen . Ai r a Y connected with the land may feel through cotatituee* t 41. We out when we left our constituents la . s e t L ec h . ft them suffering from the injuries which Daierti:lo}l had bee n i n fli cte d upon them; and it would es el c i al for u t tee 0 010 8 go back to them and feel that we ee e n N iti -ww you l n jur ed you were when we left you, I f With have been insulted."—(Cheers.) But I ap d . eel eoarduch confidence to gentlemen opposite. Nay,. .Iteetb, eat that no one will presume, directly or in • 100 I Open! ta . h oe Y or covertly, that by the moderate sugges- Oni a i ,2°, Adel have attempted to reverse our new corn etist, h a f"m• A gentleman of great experience in this tney 'expressed his belief that, far from having a ten dedal •eY t 'u e oreverse our commercial system, it has a ten- I% wh er " fi rm it. It may be a nice point to deter ill., reversal commences and where it ceases. ieetea,h7, Majesty'a e l re t heY th n'sters repropose the remedial eo tie r einselvea introduced? Is that a reversal hr_uuittercial s ystern?—(Hear, hear.) Least of all ole4P._ ..n tbat the spirit of the great departed will be ta.,e,,e4rd\qtith,_,,e‘rtaioti!ilintgetoefstt7edbetween an abundant Treasury farmers of the United Kingdom. ib -r) It is IHT . :us.- I feel that ;h. , ) thi n apirit 4111 Bb about to pl ace i n your herds is conceived or justice; becaus e I f ee l con fi dent that no ttae oc bbouldcurred wlaich, from an sentiment of false prevent her Majea y ty's Ministers fr 0 again reconsidering their Budget—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—and I need not remind the House that we have precedsn's given for reconsidering a Budget by the Right Hen. Gentleman, not only threefold precedents, but instances more multiplied; it is because I feel that no matter of sentiment need prevent Ministers from passing the holidays in that profitable contemplation of circumstances—( laugh)—and from meeting us all again in good humour that I make my appeal; because I feel the course I have taken is a course which is calculated to fill all classes, whatever their calling, with a con viction of its justice and equity; because I have studiously and seriously resolved not to interfere with the system of taxation generally devised for the advantage of towns, I appeal to the towns to assist their struggling brethr . en.—(lleer.) I appeal to the towns to assist that most important and numerous portion of the middle classes, the farmers of the country—that class who, we are told, have been deprived of 100,000,000/. sterling, which was distributed among those most connected with them. It is because I feel assured of the sense of justice and sympathy among those who represent the trading community, and whose claims ha le so liberall y been ac knowledged by the Government, a liberality to which I do not object, as I do not grudge them their advantages, that I hope they will support me in this resolution, and that by carrying this resolution they will terminate that sense of injustice, and soften those justly-wounded feel ings of honest pride, which I know animate at present the farmers of the united kingdom.—(Loud cheers.) The floe. Gentleman concluded by proposing his amendment, as follows:.-.« That, in any relief to be grunted by the remission or adjustment of taxation, due regard should be paid to the distressed condition of the owners and oc cupiers of land in the united kingdom." Mr. LABOUCHERE observed, that the moan of the Hon. Gentleman appeared, from its terms, to be so self-evident a proposition as to amount to a truism. It was brought forward as an amendment on the proposi tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the House go into Committee in order to consider the substitution, of a reduced house-tax for the existing window-tax. He was unable to understand what was the intention of the Hon. Gentleman in bringing forward such an amend ment, and had listened to the Hon. Gentleman's speech in the hope of discovering a clue to the enigma. But it left him iu greater doubt than before. At one time he thought the Honourable Gentleman was going to bring forward counter-proposals, but he listened with astonish ment when the Honourable Gentleman declared that it was far fsom his intention to oppose a reduction of the window duty. The Honourable Gentleman's declara tions were at variance with the amendment; and under these circumstances he could not think the Honourable Gentleman serious in making such a proposition when the House was asked to consider the financial arrange ments for the year. It seemed to be a " financial exercitation" with which the Hon. Member had favoured the House. The Hon. Gentleman assumed that the Budget was framed to gain popularity in towns, and give no substantial relief to others. He (Mr. Labou chere) put it to Hon. Gentlemen opposite whether more relief would not be afforded to the landed interest, espe cially the farmers, by the remission of the window duty, than 'oy the remission of the income-tax? The former was spread over all classes. Forty-two houses paying the highest amount of window duty in six counties paid 2,0401. for windows, and would pay 5671. for house-tax, leaving a saving of 1,4731. Let any gentleman of 10,0001. a year cempare his income-tax with what he paid for his windows. The farmer would benefit much more also by the remission of the window-tax. Tenants' income-tax did not apply to any farmer who rented un der 3001. a year. The exemption from window duty began only at 2001. a year; so that the large class of fer mers holding at rents between 2001. and 3001. would de rive no such benefit from a remission of income-tax as they did from commutation of window duty; and betides it must be recollected that few farmhouses were rated at 201. a year, so that the exemption from the house tax would apply to a largo extent. There was an advantage of the window-tax to which he could not help adverting, namely the effect on the moral habits sad sanitary condition of the poor classes of the com munity. He need not prove this at any length; but would shortly quote the words used by one who was the highest authority on a question of this kind—he meant the Noble Lord the Member for Bath. The Noble Lord, in bringing forward his motion the other day to encou rage th© erection of model lodging- houses, made the following statement with regard to the remission of the window-tax. He said:— " He wished also to bear testimony to the greet value of the reduction in the window duty, and wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer were present to hear the result of the experience obtained by those iuterested in the model lodging-houses. The Streatham-street house contained suites of apartments for 50 families. If these suites were separate, there would be no window-tax, but being under one roof, window-tax became eligible to the amount of between 601. and 70/, a year, adding 255. a year to the rent of each set of apartments. The removal of the window duty would permit a reduction of rent from 7s. to 6s. 6d., and so on." H e thought, therefore, the House might congratulat e itself that in remitting the window-tax, as ho trusted it be w al os middleou l upon p d oc o nl a , st i sh t ee w s ma o n u od l sdt the not o o iv nl n y e r cs defenceless o a n an f n ' d e great dr occupiers most numerous nt o fi ts n h o land, but t class e of the community. The Hon. Gentleman had brought forward four proposals on the present occasion, but he did not understand him to say that he actually meant to submit them to the consideration of the House, or that he asked the House to vote for them as a substitute for the fieancial proposition of the Government. His Ri g ht Friend the Chancellor o f th e E xc h equer h a d sub mitted to the House a financial arrangement, not differ ing in principle from that which he brought forward in the early part of the session, and the practical question for the Rouse to consider was, would they adopt his Right Hon. Friend's proposition, or substitute another which they thought had a superior claim to their sup port? They had already discussed the first motion of Hon. Gentlemen opposite with reference to the financial scheme of the Government—viz , a motion for the reduc tion of the income-tax; and now, when it was proposed on the part of the Government to repeal the window du ties and substitute a house-tax, the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire came forward with an amendment couched in terms which he must say he found it difficult sufficiently to understand—a proposal which he could not make out to be a practical ono at all.—(Hear, hear.) The terms of the Honourable Gentleman's amendment were sufficiently vague and ambiguous, but, neverthe less, the effect of it would be very great and very dan gerous, and therefore he asked the House not to agree to the proposal of the Honourable Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire was constantly deprecating discussion upon our recent commercial legislation on occasions of that kind; but , nevertheless, he (Mr. Labouchere) could not help think ing that a reversal of that policy was at the bottom of all his thoughts.—(Hear, hear.) The object of the present motion was, that the state of the agricultural interest ought to be considered in all questions regarding taxation in this country. Of course, it ought—no one denied that proposition; and, therefore, why discuss it? Had the Hon. Gentleman adhered to the first wording of his motion, and proposed that the House should, " in the first instance," consider the remission of taxes to the agricultural interest, he should then have understood the proposal; but the Hon. Gentleman retreated from that position. Hie found, no doubt, that the remission of the window duty had taken a deep hold on the feel ings of the people, and that among his own supporters there were gentlemen unwilling to commit themselves to opposition to the repeal of that duty, which they saw would be as great a boon to the agricultural interest as to the rest of the community.—(Hear, hear.) He was not surprised, therefore, that the Hoe. Gentleman should have shrunk from any motion that might have endan gered that proposal, but then he was bound to tell them definitely what he meant by the motion which he had actually submitted to the House. No doubt the real intention of the Hon. Gentleman was to oppose the Budget of the Government, and therefore he thought he should have embodied his motion accordingly. He was unwilling on the present occasion to enter upon the question of our recent commercial legislation, or to speak of the prosperity by which that legislation had been followed; but still, as he believed the real object of the Hon. Gentleman was to reverse that policy, or at the very least, to induce the House to stop in their free-trade career, he thought it would be wrong to omit any opportunity of reminding the House what the condition of the country really was.—(Hear, hear.) Since 1841 there had been a remission of taxes to the extent of 5,000,0001.; for, practically, it came to that—but such had been the buoyancy of our trade and commerce that there had been an excess of revenue of other 5,000,000/.—(Hear, hear) —and whether they con sidered exports or imports, pauperism, or the amount of our consumption of the necessaries of life, they found it proved beyond a doubt that the great body of the people were singularly prosperous—(Hear, hear)—while, at the same time, in the midst of convulsions abroad, there had been a period of remarkable political tranquillity and contentment at home.—(Hear, hear.) He did not deny that there existed what he trusted would be temporary distress among the owners and occupiers of land; but periods of distres s quite as severe had occurred at least three times since 1815, under the system of protection.— (Hear, hear.) I adeed , there existed before the late change in the coma-laws many symptoms which went to show that, even had that alteration not taken place, se vere distress was likely to be experienced, because there was a transition going on in the manner in which land Was cultivated in this country that could not but produce distress and suffering, though greatly tending to the ultimate prosperity of those connected with agriculture. —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) bad stated that he was prepared to support the repeal of the window-tax, but he had not said that he would agree ctot9hee.lf, reduction of the timber duties, or the duties on off however, he supported the reduct ion of those duties, it was quite clear the Hon. Gentleman had not one penny to spend for the special relief of the agricul tural interest.--(Hear, hear.) He would not now enter upon a consideration of the coffee or timber duties, but would simply remark that the remission of the timber duty would in no small degree benefit Ireland, into which a great deal of foreign timber was imported. The question before the House was, whether they would go into Committee no enable his Ri g ht H ou . F r i en d to pro pose the substitution of a house-tax for the window-tax. The country was looking with great anxiety for the set tlement of the financial arrangements proposed by the Government, and therefore he hoped that they would not, at the suggestion o f the Hon. Member for Buckingham- shire, enter on the present occasion into a discussion of those large considerations that were connected with the general condition of the agricultural interest. "Suffi cient for the de.y is the Budget thereof."—(Great laughter.) He hoped, now that the Budget was fairly before the House, they would proceed to dispose of it as speedily as the rules of the House would admit, being P-rfe..! tv !-atisficrl in his own mind that the pr , pes.l.l of the Government was one satisfactory to the country at large.—(Hear, hoar.) Mr. GLADSTONE said there were now two plans before them, between which they had to choose. There Was the plan of the Right Hen. Gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer and that of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, which latter appeared to him vague and shadowy. Regarding these two plans, he stood in the unfortunate predicament of not being per fectly satisfied with either.—(Herr, hear.) He hoped that, in this difficulty, they would hear the reasons he had to assign why, mot being satisfied with either plan, he should make an election between them, and vote in favour of one as productive of less evil. When, last year, the question of the local burthens which pressed upon the agricultural class was brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman, he was of opinion that was a question which should not be placed out of consideration in connexion with the change which had taken place in their commer cial policy. At that time it appeared that the leaders of the party with which the Hon. Gentleman was con nected so completely despaired of a return to protection, that they were prepared to acquiesce in the policy which was then adopted; nor did it appear in the plan then brought forward that to restore protection was one of its objects. He could not now entertain the same expectation. The question of affording relief to the local burthens, if it was proposed as a measure of obtaining the acqeiescence of the agricultural interest to the change which had been effected, he would say now as he had declared last year, if it were the means of producing peace and harmony, he was willing to entertain it, irrespective of the application of any surplus whatever. The question then was, whether they were going to relieve the local burthens of a class which had enjoyed peculiar privileges, at the expense of the rest of the community.—(Hear, litter.) He could not now take that view of the subject, because it had been distinctly declared by the Honourable Gentleman's party, if they came into power, it was their intention to revert to protection in the shape of a duty on corn. They now sought to take an issue on that question, by an appeal to the country. He did not complain of that determination. If they thought the withdrawal of protective duties was a measure, which to the agricultural class was for them attended with ruin, and that its reversal would be an act of justice, he would at once say, let it be brought to, an issue ; let the opinion of the country be pronounced upon it, and the question be finally settled.—(Hear, hear.) He could not now entertain the question of local burthens— (Hear, hear)—before he could entertain that question he must know what they were going to do with protection. (Cheers.) He objected to the Budget of the Govern ment, and he was not better satisfied with that of the Member for Buckinghamshire. Ho was prepared to ex press his approval of the principles laid down in the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which he argued the advantage of remitting taxes which pressed upon articies of consump tion and industry. He thought nothing could be more just than the demonstration he gave of the effects of such reductions. What he complained of was, that these principles were applied upon a scale so narrow.—(Hear, hear.) In 1842, when the income-tax was first proposed, there was concurrent with that measure a reduction of one million and a half of the taxation upon articles of consumption and raw materials. In 1845, when it was renewed, there was again a reduction of three millions; and in 1848 there were special circumstances which formed an exception; and now, in 1851, they were in vited to grant a renewal of the income-tax, with a re duction of not more than between four and five hundred thousand pounds upon articles of that description, which were coffte and timber, which were reduced upon the principle of relief upon articles of consumption and in dustry. That was one objection which he en tertained to the plan of the Government. His objec tion did not arise on account of the window-tax. He did not object to the removal of that tax, because it was bad is its kind. It was, in fact, a house duty in respect of windows, and he considered that a bad tax.—(Hear, hear.) He considered a house tax in respect of Value a geed tax, because contingencies might arise when they would require to draw largely from the fonotain of a house-tax. With regard to the income-tai, one or other of two alternatives must take place. 114 must either adjust the schedules applicable to personal incomes, and these dependent on individual exertion, or the tax must altogether fall. Mr. Pitt, when he introduced an income-tax, and afterwards Sir R. Peel, were of opinion that the inequalities of the tax could not be removed. If they came to the decision that this tax must either be submitted to an adjustment to meet these inequalities, or that it must fall, and if they, at the same time, acted upon the judgment of these two great authorities, that inequalities were inseparable from the imposition of income-tax, and that the tax must consequently fall, how, he would ask, were they to fill up the void which its failure would occasion?— (Hear, hear.) How could they bear so large a loss of revenue unless they were in a position to draw a great deal from the householders by the imposition of an ad ditional house-duty? He would gladly take exception to the plan of the Goeernment. His great objection to that plan was on account of the exemptions in the house duty which it gave in particular classes of houses. In Committee he would propose that many of those houses which were proposed to be exempted should be included, and made liable to the duty. He saw the principal objection to be in not giving extension to the house-tax. Out of the 3,500,000 houses in the country there re mained exempt from the duty 3,100,000 houses. The. Right Hon. Gentleman stated that this was a tax upon property, and it was so described by Mr. Mill, who spoke of it in that sense. The house-duty would be equal to two-fifths of what was received from the win dow-tax. The result was, that in crso of emergency they could not extend it in consequence of these exemp tions, and it would, therefore, for the purposes of addi tional, revenue, be unavailable. If they limited the tax to houses of 201. and upwards, exempting those under 201., they must be prepared to regard that arrangement as a permanent exemption fixed by law, which they would find it impossible to revoke. Ho had a great ob jection to the plan in this point of view, and would be glad to see it rejected, even with the loss of the remission of the window duty. He must, however, in this case, choose between the Budget of the Right Honourable Baronet and the Honourable Member for Buckingham shire. If he understood the Honourable Gentleman, and if he was wrong her hoped he would correct him, he accepted the Government plan as regarded the window duty. In that case his objections to the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman applied equally to that of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), because he disposed of the surplus in this way. The surplus is 1,900,0001., of which 1,150,0001. is for the window-duty. Then there was 550,0001. for the salaries of the officers of the Poor-law Board, and 160,0001. for the payment of the poor officers of Ireland, which would make a total of 1,860,0001. That was the Budget of the Hon. Gentle man. [An Hon. Gentleman suggested the lunatic asy lums.] There is no room for them.---(Laughter.) He could not consent to a renewal of an income-tax upon that plan. The principle upon which they ought to consent to the re-imposition of the income-tax was upon a reduction of the duty on articles of consumption and raw materials, and his objection to the plan of the Go vernment was, that this principle was confined within such narrow limits. He must declare his preference to the plan proposed by the Government. If they adopted the plan of the Hon. Member for Bucking hamshire, they should for the first time vote for the income-tax without a compensation of that kind consis tent with the commercial policy which was vital to the prosperity of the country.—(Cheers.) Mr. STAFFORD said he heard the speech of the Right Hon. Gentlemen who had just sat down with regret, but without surprise, considering the position he occupied in connexion with his party. He thought the course he might have pursued was to afford relief to the egricultural class, and keep himself free to deal with the question of protection as he thought fit; but he would ask, was the course he now adopted the way to do jus tice to the agricultural interest? Ho held out no hopes for the future. Be said two great authorities had de clared that the inequalities of the income-tax were in evitable, and added that there should not be an income tax without a reduction of duties on articles of consump tion and raw materials. This plan was a balance of one injustice against another.—(hear, bear.) If the Hon. Member wanted any reason for bringing forward his re solution, it was afforded by the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Taunton. He praised the Government plan on the ground of the remission of the window-tax to the farmers, who, however, he would find, would not appreciate it. He said the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire meant to impose a duty on corn, and then went through all the formulas against it with the fluency which constant speaking on an exhausted sub ject facilitated. With regard to Ireland, which en tirely depended upon its real property, they had no reason to be gratified with the sudden changes they had made. The agricultural interest was suffering, and it was vain for the Government to put words expressive of that fact in the Queen's Speech, hoping that those sufferings were transitory, but adducing no reason for any amelioration of their condition. The present sys tem appears to a large class of the country to be simply class legislation. It was a pure insult to this class to continue to carry out this system. The exemptions which the Government had made in reference to taxa tion had afforded a precedent for the motion that had been made. The Government had relieved one class from the effects of an inquisitorial tax, and they had justified the continuance of the income-tax, to relieve the pressure of other taxes on the people. Now, the motion before the House did not go so far as to call upon the House to relieve the distress existing amongst the agricultural classes ; it only asked them to inquire into the cause of the distress. Now, he would venture to assume that they would do this act of justice to the farmers. Now, let them look at the conse quences of this neglect of the claims of the farmers to their sympathy and consideration. The farmers might be induced to get men from amongst themselves to represent their interests in that House, whom they might pledge to reduce taxation at all hazards. Was it not, therefore, unwise to goad men into such a state as to jeopardise the honour and credit of the country? They might talk as they pleased about the advantages to the great body of the people of low prices. The feel ing in the minds of the farmers was, that low prices meant clear money. Well, it' by the continuance of this policy, and by their refusal to listen to the claims of the farmers for relief, they induced the agricultural classes to adopt a ceurne of policy such as that to which he had adverted, would that be the time for them to endeavour to come to a settlement upon the question now at issue between them? If they brought the farmer into a state which would melee him despair of success, and if in con sequence he, either in his own person or through the ' agency of others, adopted a course which would de prive the Government of the power of upholding the pub lic credit, would this be a state of things which gentle men in that House, anxious to sustain the honour and character of the country, would be pleased to see?— (Hear.) It was true they might defeat the efforts of the farmers, but this, instead of making them weak or power' ee, w , old toake them strong for the purpose of • dishonour.—(Hear.) Mr. ALCOCK had listened with great interest to the remarks of the Hon. Member for Buckinghams hire on , the eubjeel of the malt-tax. Last year the Honourable tiONDON i SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 12 1 1851. Gentleman ♦oted for the repeal of that tax, and ob served, that public credit must be at a low ebb if it could not afford to lose 5,500,0001. of money. Well, on a subsequent. occasion the Honourable Gentleman had expressed his willingness to dispense with the in come-tax, amounting to 5,500,000/. more. Here was at once 11,000,0001. struck off the revenue. He did not consider the Hon. Gentleman to be consistent in sup porting these two propositions, besides which, in doing so, the Hon. Gentleman wee altogether at variance with Lord Stanley and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem ber for Stamford, who, as cautious, wary, and practical rams, had not allowed therns Ives to be pledged to any such propositions. He should vote against the resolu tions of the Hon. Gentleman, not because he bad no sympathy for the agricultural interest, but because be would not be the follower of such a leader. Mr. J. SANDARS did not believe that the agricultu ral interest was unduly taxed, and he therefore felt it his duty to oppose the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bucking.hemshire. But his chief reason for opposing the motion was the fear he entertained that, if such a measure were carried it would strengthen the Pro tectionist party in that Hence, and enable them to main tain their principle of protection at least by keeping it asap open question. He entertained a further objection to the motion on financial grounds. He believed that if the income tax were removed t 3 great deficit in the revenue would occur, and the country would be placed in a peril ous position. He would deplore the success of the motion, because he saw in it the firs✓ Etep towards the resumption of class policy, which would have the effect of lowering the aristocracy in the eyes of the people. Lord JOHN MANNERS wished, with the permission of the House, to recall attention to the immediate sub- j.. , .ct of the motion brought forward by the Hon. Gentle man the Member for Bucking,hamshire. Ministers fully admitted the distress of the suffering agricultural interest, but while they did so they took no steps what ever towards affording relief. The question was simply this—would the House of Commons vote that justice should be refused to an interest of the country that was suffering? The Government, speaking by the President of the Beard of Trade, said that it would not assent to the measure of justice or mitigation of re lief, and the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern ment, following up the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, told that suffering interest that they should look for relief to the closing paragraph in the Queen's Speech. The Right Hoe. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had over and over again declared that the agricultural interest mast look for relief to the continued prosperity of the manufacturing interest. Now, for the purposes of debate, he (Lord J. Manners) had admitted the ex istence of that commercial prosperity, although the Hon. Member for the West Riding had found it convenient to ualify the statement. When they were asked to look for relief to that prosperity, they should assure them selves that it was placed on a firm foundation, and was likely to continue. He could not bring his mind to be lieve that prosperity, however great it might be at the present moment, was so based; and even if it were so, it would take an immense amount of proof to esta blish the fact of its reacting favourably on English rather than on foreign agriculture. The Circulars of Mr. Littledale, of Liverpool, showed that the country was not in so prosperous a condition as some people supposed. The trade report, which appeared in the Times of that morning, corroborated the fact so far as Manchester was concerned. These were the words of the report:—" On Thursday the downward tendency was less marked, and greater steadiness of prices pre vailed, but the extent of transactions was small, and • buyers appeared to be confining their operations to the rarrowest limits. Many of the private letters by the • Isat overland India mail are said to have been very dispiriting, and scarcely reconcileable with the encourag ing tone of the. accounts by the previous mail. Under these circumstances some of the export houses in that trade have closed their purchases for the present, or operate with much caution. In the Levant trade accounts continue to come of a harassing character; not only do the markets appear to be abundantly stocked with prints, which are almost unsaleable at any price, but plain cloths and yarns are depressed in price, and unremunerative; still exporters in this market are doing quite as much here to-day as they have done for some time past. In the home trade business continues very languid, not withstanding the fineness of the weather, and an opinion is freely put forth in some p uarters, though not generally acquiesced in, that it is in a great degree attributable to the steadiness with which the working classes are hoard ing their savings to visit the Great Exhibition. In our account of lest Saturday's market it ewes stated that th© increased exports of cotton manufactures to India and China were 1,000,0001b5. of yarn, and 39,000,000 yards of cloth. It should have been that the total increase of exports in the last three months, as compared with the same period last year, was to that amount in yarn. The increase in yarn was rather over that to India (1,367,0001b5.), butlis counterbalanced to some extent by a falling off to other ports. The increase in the exports of calicoes is 39,000,000 yards, of which 14,500,000 nearly are to India, and 10,500,000 to China." With these practical opinions before him, ho could not convince himself that the manufacturing interest was in the prosperous condition which the Free-traders affected. Under all these circumstances the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire came forward and said, "admitting that distress, and having a surplus to dispose of, apply it in mitigation of that distress." He did not ask for an appropriation of the money for the benefit of the land owners. Let the Government not rest secure in the be- lief that the pressure of this distress had not extended and woull not extend to the labouring classes. A report which he held in his hand, and which had been published that morning at Spalding, showed the extent of distress, and the increase of crime, which now prevailed in South Lincolnshire. In the midland counties, with which he was connected, he knew that crime bad largely in creased from the want of employment. Hr. Justice Cressivell, in his recent charge to the grand jury, at Liverpool, said he was totally unable to account for the large increase of crime in that district which the calen dar exhibited, and the presentment of the Suffolk grand jury, which was of the same melancholy character, di rectly attributed it to the went of employment, and the inability of landlords to give it in consequence of recent legislation. If it were true, therefore, that this pressure had not yet reached the agricultural population genes rally, these, at least, were facts which the Government would do well to inquire into. It might be a matter of indifference to Hon. Gentlemen sitting opposite that the owners and occupiers of land should sink under the load of difficulties that oppressed them, or that the old an cestral houses of England's gentry should find them selves obliged to close their doors against the claims of hospitality; but let them beware how they tampered with the employment, how they diminished the wages, and how they curtailed the comforts of the peasantry of England and Ireland. Let them pause before they enlarged the injury that had been done, and show to this suffering, interest that they were willing, at least, to endeavour to avert the ruin, which, in his conscience, ho believed to be impending.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT remarked that Hon. Gentlemen oppo site did not seem to think it was judicious to discuss the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They agreed that it was applicable to the country, and that it must pass that House.—(gear.) He considered that the speeches that had been made by the Hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. A. Stafford) and the Noble Lord who had just sat down, must do great damege to their leader.—(" Hcar, hear," from Lord J. Russell.) Ile was convinced the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) was of opinion that any project of a return to protection was the mevest delusion. That Hon. Gentleman knew that so long as Members of his party would have protection they were destined to sit on the shady side of that House, and that they never would cross the table to the Ministerial benches—(Hear)—and accordingly the Hon. Gentleman took his tone in this discussion, and avoided protection as a thing that was irrevocably and finally settled.—(Hear, hear, and cries of " No, no.") The Hon. Gentleman made this proposition for the benefit of the agricultural interest. The labourers were once " the agricultural interest," but now they were left out.—(Cries of " No, no.") The agricultural interest now consisted of the owners and occupiers of land, and it was said they had a special claim to a spe cial relief. They assumed that they were suffering throughout the United Kingdom; lout they brought no proof that the owners or occupiers of land were suffer ing much, or at all.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") He thought that they had failed in showing that they had any spe cial claim for relief, even if they were suffering. The Nuble Lord at the head of the Government, with that want of caution which not unfrequently distinguished him —(Cheers, and laughter)—had admitted the distress in a paragraph in the Queen's Speech, which was an invi tation to the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire to have in the first week of the session a discussion on the tub ject—(Licar)—and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had committed another blunder—(Laughter) —when ho brought forward a proposal as applicable to the agricul turists, and which, having once brought forward, he ought to have adhered to.—(Hear.) He was prepared to dispute half the case—that owners of land were suffer ing distress—or had the slightest ground whatever to come to the House for relief. It was stated the other night that there had been a full of rent in Herefordshire of 25 per et-, , nt., but that could not be true generally, as the lion. Member for Buckinghamshire had placed the reduction at about ten per cent. He did not believe the average reduction was ten per cent. He believed the re duction was only a temporary remission of rent, such as had been usual with landlords on special occasions. He believed the reduction of rent had been very small, and nothing in comparison to that loss which owners of other kinds of property were constantly sustaining throughout the kingdom. He would ask what class escaped so completely unscathed in time of commercial disaster as the landowners? It was stated at Aylesbury that land only returned 2i per cent. Why, that was a proof of its more than ordinary security. Tho Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) had stated that though 6,000,0001. had been lost to the landowners from the re duction of rent, yet that this reduction formed no suffi• cient ground for appealing to that House. This was quite different to the doctrines usually held in that House.—(Hear.) But if the working classes generally were benefited by the loss of that 6,000,000.whic which the landowners ought never to have enjoyed—(Hear) —that was a sufficient recompense.—(l l ear.) He would take the consumers belonging to the agricultural interest, and he asserted they were not suffering to any extent which entitled them to he considered a suffering class. He came then to the occupiers of land, and he was not disposed to deny that they might suffer from the temporary low price of produce. But it must be recollected that suffer ing was not a new thing. ft was a common malady this :suffering; but there was nothing whatever to show that the suffering arose from! the legislation of that House. He wished to strip the question from delu sion. —(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) did not wish to go back to protection. Did lion. Members opposite agree to that?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member (Mr. Disraeli) did not wish to relieve agriculturists by raisieg the price of corn. His propo sition was to transfer the burdens on certain descriptions of property to the Consolidated Fund, and to place them on the people generally. Now, with respect to the al leged burden of the poor-rate he would state a few facts. He had a return from 1836 to 1842, showing how poor: rata was levied on land, houses, and other property; and he only wished it came down to 1851, as he was satis fied it would be the best answer to the statement that land was toe heavily burdened. In 1825, according to the rental, the poor-law burden on lend was 69 per cent.; in 1833 it was 63 per cent.; in 1841 it paid 52 per cent. So that in fifteen years the amount fell from 69 to 52 per cent. —from two-thirds to one-half; and if ha had the returns up to 1850, he believed the fall would be found to have been in the same ratio, anal that land did not now pay more than 40 per cent. The Hon. Member for Westbury said 45 per cent., but he believed it was 40 per cent. The amount of the poor-rates in 1833 was 8,600,000/. In 1842 it had fallen to 6 , • 500 000/ • and in 1850 to 5,395,0001. Now within the last eight years, during which time that new course of commer cial legislation—free trade—had been practieed, the poor-rates had fallen about 1,300,000/. He had made a calculation of the poor-rate paid by the land, which, in round numbers, he would take at 5,500,0001. in 1826, when the amount paid was 69 per teat. The amount paid in ISSO he took at 40 per cent., and, therefore, the sum now paid was not more then about 2,158,000/. So if they went back to 1833 they would find the landed interest paid more than double the amount they paid now. Then the railways paid 300,0001. in poor-rates to parishes to which they never contributed a pauper, and: houses were springing up everywhere which were taxed to the poor_ rates. But he came to the alleged distress of the farmer. The inapo3ition of taxes on the necessaries of life oF the working classes would not benefit or relieve the farmer. Reductions had been made from time to time, hut those reductions had all gone to enhance rent. The Right Hon. Gentleman, if be came into power, would advocete that line of policy which would end in raising rents.— (Hear, hear.) Farmers were the victims of a vicious system. But that vicious system was of the creation of Hon. Gentlemen opposite. They had made the farmers dependent on them up to the year 1846. As a cotton maufacturer, he should be sorry to entrust his interests to the country party or to political parties. The evil of farmers was that they held too mueh land. If they took more land than they could find capital to cultivate they were on the road to ruin, just the same as the landowner who bought more land than he could pay for merely to augment his political power.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the game laws—(Cries of " Question") —they were as pertinent to the question as the reductions of poor-rates and other propositions. It was proved before the Committee that the injury done by game to the farmers was more than the whole amount of their local taxation—(oh.) The injury done by gentlemen in sporting over the farmer's land wee immense, and if the law did not induce them to give up their sport, at least other reasons ought to have effect on them.—(Hear, hear.) It was the natural effect of passing from a vici ous system of forty years' standing to a better system, that suffering should prevail. But tenant-farmers had at various poriods sustained suffering, and if they ex pected to better their condition, it must be by the reduc tion of rent, the application of more capital, and the adoption of a better system of cultivation. The Noble Lord the Member for Colchester had alluded to the in crease that had taken place in crime. Now, he would give the Noble Lord the number of persons taken into custody in Manchester since the year 1842, and the Noble Lord would see that crime had not increased in that part of England. The number of persons taken into custody in Manchester in 1842 were ... 13,801 1844 10,700 1846 ... •.. ... 7,600 1848 ... 7,200 1349 4,600 1850 ... 4,578 —(Hear, hear.) A similar return for the whole of Eng land and \Vales would show that the committals had diminished from 31,000 in 1842, to 27,000 in 1849, not withstanding the increase that had taken place in the population.—(llear, hear.) The proposal brought for ward by the Hon. Member for Bucks would only serve to delude—not the owners of land in that House, for they understood these tricks—but the farmers of the country.—(Oh!) Ho believed that one great result of the repeal of the corn-laws would be that the farmers would no longer regard themselves as a separate class, having special claims on the House of Commons to at tend to their interests. The sooner the farmers made themselves independent of their landlords, so far as the feudal system was concerned, the sooner they could make a bargain with their landlords in the same way that they made a bargain with their grocer, the sooner would they get cut of their difficulties. The only way to relieve agricultural distress was for the farmers to exercise V those virtues and talents by which the rest of their countrymen prospered. If they did that he believed that, with the means of com munication, and with the markets they possessed, not only the agricultural, but also the manufacturing in terest, would be found to triumph. Mr. REYNOLDS said, the Hon. Gentleman had in- , formed the House that the motion of the lion. Member for Buckinghamshire was intended to delude the House, and delude the farmer. He regretted he did not include a certain portion of that House, and himself also— (Laughter)—as he was about to vote for it.—(Hear and laughter.) Hi was particularly anxious to state the ground upon which he felt it his duty to record that vote. He heard his lion. Friend any that there was a protection required; and he agreed with him that if the proposition of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire could be construed, either directly or indirectly, to mean protection, he would be found voting against him. If it could ae construed to mean an attempt to raise the price of bread, he would bo found voting against him. But what was the motion ? That in the financial ar rangements for the year due regard should be paid to the interest of land. In his proposition there was not a word about protection—(Hear)--but it occurred to him that it bore this construction, that as there was a sur plus of 2,000,000/., there was a reasonable struggle be tween the .two interests as to which would have the larger relief. NOW, passing from England, he would cross the Irish Channel, where there was an island con taining 8,000,000 of inhabitants. The eight millions in Ire land derived their support chiefly from agricultural pur suits, and Ireland ought not to be blotted out of the map. Let them consider what the agriculturists had to deal with. Within the last year 1,500,000 quarters of wheat had arrived from France—more than one-half of it in flour—and within the last two months a cargo of flour had arrived in Dublin, also from France, and he had it on the best information that not more than a week had elapsed since it had been taken from the mill. In this country the capital invested in flour mills would not re alise one-fourth of the original investment. He defied any honest man to prove that free trade had conferred any benefit on Ireland. He (Mr. Reynolds) was a Free trader—(A laugh)—but he was not for one-sided reci procity. They had given Ireland the poor-law, and be had no doubt they had done so with the best intention, but that law cost the landlords of Ireland two millions. —(Hear, hear.) And then there was the grand jury cess on laud alone to the amount of 1,300,0001. per annum, and which was devotod to the support of gaols, hospitals, and lunatic asylums. In addition to these burthens, the tithes had been converted into a rent charge, and they had made the Church the owner of the fee, and not the landlord. He recollected that a charge had been brought against himself and other Irish Members for voting as they did on the 14th of last month, and it had been said what an extraordinary set of fel lows these Irish Members are to vote as they did.— (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Twenty Irish Members _ - voted in the minority,' some voted the other way, and some got tickets of leave.—(Laughter.) He would tell them what happened to some of these Members. Their constituents read their votes and their spe,ches, for somehow these matters became known.—(Laughter.) Meetings were held, and votes of censure were passed on some of them. [An HON. MEMBER—Is that all?] No, it is not all: there was something more.—(Laughter.) Votes of censure, as he had said, were passed on some of them, and absolution was given to others on the terms that they should go and sin no more.—(Laughter.) Pro tection was the cry, but ho was not to be gulled by that cry. The time of delusion for Ireland had gone by. The people of Ireland read the votes and the speeches of their representatives, and he hoped they would read his. —(Hear, and laughter.) It was not protection that was meant by the present motion—it was a scramble for the booty, and that the agricultural interest should get a share. —(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) It was said that the object of the motion was, to put out one Ministry and to put in another; but even at that risk he (Mr. Reynolds) would give his vote for the motion.—(llear, hear.) He came into that House to support the Noble Lord; but, if the Noble Lord had deserted his principles, ho (il% Reynolds) had not de serted his.—(Hear, hoar, and laughter.) Ho might be told that this vote would not decide the fate of the Minister, but he could not help that. It mattered little 0 Ireland who held the helm of the State, provided the Government attended to the wants of the people.—(Hear, hear.) It mattered little to him whether the Noble Lord or the Right Hon Baronet (the Member for Ripon) —(Loud cries of " Hoar, hear," and laughter)—or the Noble Lord whose name had been so notorious in con nexion with protection, held the reins •of power. Ire land wanted measures and not men. They had got rid of the sectarian .and political prejudices which had so long been the bane of the country. Upon one point all parties were bound up together, and that it was to do their best to raise Ireland from the position in which bad legislation had placed her.—(Hear, hear.) Let him call the attention of the Noble Lord and his colleagues to the fact, that they would have the majority of the Irish Members voting in favour of the motion of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (M. Disraeli).—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " No.") The Hon. Member might cry " No," but one could not speak for 150 Members. Lot him remind the Government that fifty-three Irish M em . hers voted in favour of the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford (Mr. Herries).— Cries of " Divide.") Members were anxious to divide, and he would not longer trespass on their attention. They were about to enter upon the Easter recess. The Irish Members were on the eve of returning to Ire land, and if he (Mr. Reynolds) should be asked his opinion as to the manner in which Ireland had been treated by her Majesty's Ministers, he should feel it his duty to give them the worst possible character.—(oh.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the Hon. Gentleman had no need to occupy so much time in telling the House his reasons for voting against t h e Government. It was not many nights since he had informed the House that whatever were the principles of the Government he should oppose, them.—(Hear.) They all knew the cause. But though the Government might regret the loss of the Hon. Gentleman's support, they could not on his account compromise their principles. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should not, there tore, attempt to reconcile the former votes of the Hon. Gentleman with his recent votes, nor to explain the dif ference between his previous speeches in favour of free trade and his present speech in favour of protection.— (Hear.) Neither should he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) occupy the House for any time, as he hal done so only very recently. He would merely observe to the Noble Lord the Member for Colehe,ster that he ought not to give credence to the gosstppicg stories ho might hear; and with respect to the Hon. Member for sucks, he should not follow him into all the facts of his speech, but contiin his observations to the details of the motion. Like his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Labouchere), he was a good deal puzzled by the Hen. Gentleman's motion. As it originally stood it had some sense, but now it had none. The Hon. Gen tleman declared himself favourable to a repeal of the window tax; but on the face of such a declaration now he had taken the extraordinary course of moving an amendment on the motion for going into Committee to repeal it. The Hon. Gentleman had, it is true, talked of some indefinite relief; but he had made out nothing clear, except that in which he had had the assistance of the Right Hon. Gentleman near him. The purpose of the amendment was to defeat the repeal of the window tax, because if it was carried the motion tor the repeal of that tax would ho lost. If the Hon. Gentleman sup ported, as he said he did, the proposition of the Govern ment, he should not have moved his amendment. The Hon, Gentleman said the proposal of the Government gave no relief to agriculture. Did country grntlemen, however, pay no window-tax? Did tenant-farmers use timber.—(Hear)—or live in houses which paid window tax? It they did, then, wcy , ld they not get relief to the same extent as the rest of the community?—(dear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman said that the pro- posals made to repeal the duty on seeds, and to take a portion of the expense of lunatic asylums by the Govern ment, was received with silence. Ho (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) begged to say that it was, on the contrary, received by the Hon. Membcrs for Peterbo rough and North Warwickshire with opposition. Yet the former was the single one paid by the occupying tenant. If, therefore, the tenant-farmers complained hereafter that they did not get their seeds as cheap as they might have got them, it was to the owners of the land and not to the Government, they owed it to.—(Cries of " Oh," and Hear.) When he (the Chancellor of the Exche quer), however, withdrew these propositions, ho was prepared to prove that he gave the agricultural interest under his new plans far more than he withheld from them. What single tax, except perhaps the income-tax, pressed so heavily upon the agricultural interest as the window-tax; and was its reduction, therefore, nothing ? The amount of relief to the agricultural interest, through the relief of the charge for lunatics and the duty on seeds, amounted to little more than a farthing in the pound on the rating of that interest; but, besides a house tax being a more just and equal tax, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could show that the repeal of the window-tax gave an amount of relief that bore no pro portion to this amount. Taking eight counties in Eng land, of which two were manufacturtng counties, with a large town-population, and six purely agricultural, the result of the remission of taxation was as follows: Lancashire paid the amount of the present window-tax. Yorkshire Hampshire c;.3 • lP - 7 Bedfordshire Essex 59 Lincolnshire Norfolk Suffolk The relief to the last six was, therefore, much greater than that to the first two; and it could not consequently be said that the agricultural interest in those counties did not get relief, at least in the same proportion as the town population in the manufacturing counties. The whole amount that had been proposed to be taken on the Consolidated Fund for the support of lunatic asylums was 150,0001.; but the remission of the window-tax on the six last named agricultural counties alone was equal to 70,0001., or one-half of the whole sum in question. It was true he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did withdraw what he proposed originally to give; but it was equally true that he had not been unmindful or negligent of the interests of agriculture. The Noble Lord the Member for Colchester had said the proposi tion of the Government had no regard for the peasantry of England. But the fact was the other way, for the peasantry were never so well off as now.—(Hear, hear.) The reduction in prices had been, in these respects, greater than the reduction in wages. Prices had, in some cases, fallen one-half; would any Hon. Gentleman say wages had fallen in the same proportion? Mr. BOOKER said they had in the iron districts. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said these were not agricultural districts, to which alone he he had alluded. The Hon. Member for Bucks had put into his mouth an argument he had never u sed. The Hon. Member for Stafford had warned them against rural demagogues. Nov, such persons as would go to tenants—incite them to pay no rent—and recommend them to mount their horses and ride into Manchester, these he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) held in as much abhorrence as the Honourable Member himself. But the policy which Honourable Gentlemen opposite pursued and advocated might encourage rural orators to do something in another sense. lie could not help thinking, notwithstanding that they so carefully con cealed it, that the main object of the Hon. Members who supported the present motion was the establishment of the Sc.duty on corn. With respect to the window- Lax, lion. Gentlemen said he shotild have carried the tax lower. Now there was no doubt but that he might have so arranged the tax as to bring some 25,000 or 30,000 more houses under its operation; but in so doing he would not have realized a greater revenue than 40,000/., and for such an amount as that he did not wish to hazard the success and popularity of the entire pro position by bringing such a largo number of persons under taxation for . the first time.—(Hear, hear.) Ho saw no reason to doubt that the House was in favour of his proposal, and if they agreed with him they would vote against the motion of the Hon. Member for Buck inghamshire. Lot no one fancy they could agree in opinion with the Hon. Member for Bucks and with him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) also.--(Hear, and cries of " Divide.") Mr. W. MILES said, the Chancellor of the Exche quer having thrown overboard the owners and occupiers of land, now sought to reconcile his total neglect of that class of persons, whom he stated to be in a condition of great distress. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that, although the owners and occupiers of land were in a state of distress, the labourers were not so, for that they had every article of necessity at only one-half the price it used to be. Then, he would ask, was the labourer's malt, his tea, his coffee, his rent, less by one-half than formerly.—(Hear, hear, and loud cries of " Divide.") The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire had a design for the re-imposi tion of a duty on corn behind his present motion.— (Loud cries of " Divide, divide.") Such was not the case. He had not heard one word leading to such a conclusion in the speech of the Hon. Gentleman or any one who supported him. They ought to consider well to what they might drive the agricultural interest. If they refused that interest justice, nothing was left them but to try, not the feeling of the House, but the sense of the country. They would endeavour to go back to the system which was believed to be thoroughly expired.— (Criss of "Divide." The Hon. Member here went into various statistical details (which were very impatiently received by the House), proving the depreciation of landed property and produce, and the consequent dis tress prevailing, and concluded by announcing leis inten tion of supporting the motion of his Hon. Friend. Mr. NEWDEGATE end other Hon. Members, amongst whom was we believe Sir R. Peel, rose together. There were cries of " Divide, divide," and "Peel, Peel." The Ilon.Gentleman proceeded to address the House amid much noise and confusion, but was totally unheard in the gallery. He was understood to say he considered the remedies proposed for the agricultural classes as totally insignificant in amount, and entirely dispropor tioned to the wants of the case,—(Cries of " Divide.") The Hon. Gentleman having in vain attempted to make himself heard amidst the uproar that prevailed in the House, resumed his seat. Lord J. RUSSELL rose to say, that, es ho thought it most desirable the House should divide that night, he trusted, in order to enable them to come to a division, which could not then be far off, that those Hon. Gentle men who wished to address to the House their reasons for their vote would be listened to. Mr. NE WDEGATE again rose, amidst cries of e spoke, spoke." All that ho had wished to statew t a he s, that he had expressed a distinct opinion that, as Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed to remit or reduce taxation to the amount of 1,500,000/,, and as one -eighth of that reduction would apply to the most distressed in terest in the country—the agricultural body—it was a very insignificant equivalent for the distress of which they complained. Ile also wished to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman had, on two occasions, unfairly endea voured to saddle him with the onus of withdrawing his paltry tender of delayed justice. lie had said nothing whatever with respect to the transfer of the cost of the pauper lunatic asylums to the Con so lid ated Fund b eing insignificant. Sir R. PEEL said, in order that no misconstruction might result from the conscientious vote ho was pre pared to/give that night on the motion before the House, and being unwilling to detain the House with any state ment of his views, however desirous he might bo of doing so, if they were discussing any financial or com mercial scheme, w i t h t h e view of introducing changes in the free-t ra d e po li cy of 1846—(11ear, hear)—yet, as one of that class comprised under the denomi nation of owners and occupiers of land—that class which was allowed to be suffering under great and unparalleled distress —that influential class from which greater and more enduring benefits flowed to the industry of the country and the poorer classes than from any other — certainly than from the paltry professions of certain po litical economists—as one of the country gentlemen of England, whose interests were not antagonistic to those of the poorer classes, but were rather indissolubly united with their permanent prosperity—as such he felt that he could not give a silent vote on the present occasion, but state briefly that, Free-trader as he was and landed pro prietor also, he would give his vote in favour of a m easure e which declared that, in any relaxation of taxation, so me attention should be paid to the claims of the owners a n d occupiers of land.—(Hear, hear.) Lord NORREYS, whe spoke amidst great the motion, and and continued cries for a division, oppose d and warned Hon. Members that every vote Hon. M em b er e ill_ e fa; your of the cleverly worded motion of the n. uab against the for Buckinghamshire was an indirect veto repeal of the window-tax. Sir W. JOLLIFFE explained with reference to what had been said by the Chancellor of the Exch equer, of his having repudiated the boon of the reductions—re ferring to clover seeds —th at tne agricultural interest would repudiate a boon which was wrung from the la bour of the poor. After a few words i n explanati on f rom the CHAN CELLOR of the EX CHE Q U ER, Colonel SIBTHORP told the Noble L or d th e M em b er that he should never for Oxfordshire (Lord Norrey s ) attempt to stand for that county again. After the speech of that night the Noble Lord could no longer bo con sidered as the farmers' friend, Lord J. RUSSELL said, before the debate closed he was anxious to call the tettertion of the House to the delusion which he thought had been practised upon the House and upon a great portion of the country by the repeated motions of a similar nature which they had been called upon to discust. The present motion, appa rently the smallest of the sort, merely proposed, instead of going into Commitiee to condier the question of the repeal of the window-tax, that in any relief to be granted by the remission or adjustment of taxation, due regard should be paid to the distressed condition of the owners and occupiers of land in the United King dom. Well, as if the Honourable Member for Buck ingharnehire said, the window-tax was to be repealed, and the Honourable Gentleman assented to the Chan cellor of the Exchequer's proposition upon that subject, looking at the amount of surplus, it was quite clear that no effectual relief could be given by the remainder of that surplus to the owners and occupiers of land. — (Cheers.) Then, if the question were taken as a general question, admitting what the Hon. Gentleman had al leged es to the importance and the number of the landed interest in this country, he should say that, if it were possible to make any considerable remission of taxation, Parlieinent could not remit the duties upon windows. upon tea, or reap, or on any other of the chief articles of taxation, without at the same time giving large relief to the owners and occupiers of land. So he should say to them upon this subject as upon all subjects which af feted the !ended interest, let them not look for any spe cial legislation in their behalf—let them not look for a measure which would either fix a particular price for corn, or to give them special exemptions from taxation, but look rather to measures of relief which, along with themselves, wo u ld affect the other classes of the commu nity; for if the prosperity of the community wore secured they might depend upon it that that great and important interest would prosper alon g with the rest of the Queen's subjects.--(Cheers) The Hon. Member for Somerset shire said that be had heard no one declare in the course of this debate—he certainly had not heard from the Hon. Member for Buckin ghamshire —that protection was involved in this motion. And the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) said h o believed that the Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire had no in tention to restore the duties upon corn. Well, but if that were the case, why was it, when the simple minded yeomen and farmers who desired the restora tion of protection went to the Honourable Gentl eman and other leaders of the patty oppcsite, and sa i d to them, " You ore continually bringing forward m ot i ons witihrespect to local taxation ; but why do you not at once ask Parliament to give us protection ? "—how was it that the invariable answer was, "Although that is not the direct, it is the indirect object of our motion ; and you will find that if ever these motions are carried. the restoration of protection will follow."—(Hear, hear.) Here, th en , h e contended, was a delusion pract i se d both upon the House of Commons and upon that portion of the community which still looked to the restoration of protection, and the re-imposition of duties upon corn. — (Cheers.) Every one knew by the test of the motion of the Hon. Member for Gloucestershire (Mr. Grant ley Berkeley) last year, that if a direct motion for the imposition of a duty upon corn were introduced in this House, it would be, as it had been on that occasion, re jected by a large majority, yet the debates and divisions upon such motions as the one now before the House were exhibited to the farmers as a test of the opinion of the British House of Commons. Ile said, then, that it would be more fair and honourable if, as the Honourable Member for Oxford had proposed, they said, " There are certain duties which affect us, the landed interest; give us relief with respect to these duties, and you shall not again hear a word about protection from us, and that great source of quarrel and dissension will for ever be dried up." Either let them say that, or say fairly, oWe stand boldly upon the question of protection. If protec dun is restored, we succeed; if protection is denied, we fail."—(Loud cheers.) Let them place the matter upon fair grounds like that. Let them not adopt these delu sive motions, which were unbecoming a great party in the State, but put the issue fairly and openly before the country at once.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL warmly condemned the rule of action—he could not call it a principle or policy— which the Hen. Member for Dublin (Mr. J. Reynolds) had thought it his duty, before an assembly of British gentlemen, unblushingly to avow —that whatever course the Government might take, and whother;it was in accord ance with his own principles or not, he should vote against them.—(Laughter and cheers.) Let the Irish Roman. Catholic Itlembers recollect that nine out of ten of those Ron. Gentlemen who on this side of the water had sup ported them in their resistance to the Ecclesiastical Titles Assumption Bill opposed the motion of:Mr. Disra eli to-night because they would not stultify themselves— because they were in favour of on adherence to principle, and would not he dragged through the mire of those who were ready, per foss et nefas, to oppose the Government. —(Cheers, and " Oh, oh.") He now rose merely to state that in the early part of the evening he was rather in doubt how he should vote to-night; but he owned that he had been converted.—(Laughter.) His mind was now settled. The speech of the Hen. Member for Dub lin had settled it.—(Oh, oh, and laughter.) And ho trusted the Members from Ireland would oppose the mo tion of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, which was meant simply to hoodwink the British public, and to excite expectations amongst the agriculturists which must surely be disappointed.—(Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) Dlr. KEOGH (amidst crieslof " Divide" end constant interruptions) appealed to the House whether it lay with the Hon. Member for Kerry to talk of Members of this House being "dragged through the mire."—(Laughter and cries of " Oh.") The i llon. Member shrugged his shoulders at the observation. He (Mr. Keogh) would not say that he enjoyed the " Pleasures of Hope—(A. laugh)—but surely he might be permitted to indulge the "Pleasures of Memory"—(Laughter)—and his memory, according to the Honourable Member himself, did not require that he should go so far back as to pain the recollection, for the Honourable Member had told the House that he had come down this evening intending to vote one way, and that he had determined on voting another. —(" No, no," from Mr. M. J. O'Connell.) Well, the Hon. Member came down with a saving doubt in his mind respecting the vote he should give, although in substance this identical question was discussed some six or seven weeks ago in the House.—(" Oh, oh," " Question," "Divide," and other marks of impatience.) The Hon. Member took a broad prospective view of all parties, and the result was that he who had come down in doubt was now not only per fectly satisfied in his own mind as to the vote he should give, but took upon himself to lecture those gentlemen who had not come down in doubt, but were quite satis fied in their minds as to the propriety of the vote they were about to give. He (Mr. Keogh) intended to record his vote in favour of the motion of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, and was ready to defend that vote. A few nights ago he went into the same lobby with the Hon. Member for Kerry in support of the motion of the Hon. Member for Waterford (Sir H. W. Barron), who proposed that the House should go into Committee to consider the distressed state of the people of Ireland. And what was the motion of Mr. Disraeli but that, in any remission of taxation that might be made, due regard should be p that distress to the distressed condition of the owners and occupiers of land in the United Kingdom ? and ihie to t'eny, when distress was existing it was in:mom-- h. they found it admitted in the Qnee n's hi s Sec reasons for Sir THOMAS ACLAND, is givingMemb er en for supporting the amendment of the od: o :l or e: in . thad ad mitted that the agr ßuckinghamshire, said that agricultural class was ma d e e n ffbeyrtihnge ff.rrioemnddsios-f .ieultu a r l a l tress, yet they resisted that class to obtain inqu ir y and union amongst the agr icultural class which ieh relief. But there was found, i o l cl in principle, and which, against being t founded effo r t s an d des i gns of a ul c d la ss gin principle, eventuallyonst succeed w hom there was no un i on of principle. Mr. J. O'CON NELL reme mbered the time when th e wo Hon. Member (Mr. Keogh) was not so redhot a Liberal as he now professed to. The Hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Reynolds) had thrown out two challenges. lie said that were it not for free-trade the rates for the sup portwhvthat H of the poor in I re l an d would have been double what wore. s th a ey a vote deniedieh that. il h He he had adli geien had in beforebeouesen, een red for bat he felt condition to defend his vote. With regard to the amendment now before the House, if anything could induce him to vote for that amendment it would be the speech of the Hon. Member for I3nclzinghemshire. Mr. H. GRATTAN did not rise to lecture the House. nor to receive " lectures," which, as far as he was con cerned, passed unheeded as " the idle wind." But feel ing that the legislation of this House had ruined Ireland, and brought death and desolation on her peop l e , hun dreds. and thousa n d s o f w h om , t oo , h a d been driven by it to fly to Am e ri ca , h e s h ou ld vo t e for the amendment of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamsbiro. The House then divided, when there apPe o o 2 7 3 For going into Committee... • • F - Mr. D' tie 50 - • • a_ or r. -Israeli's motion ... Majority for the Government 13 This announcement was received with loud cheers by the Opposition. The motion for going into Co n ' was then agreed to, and the House went into Committee. Mr. DISRAELI asked the Noble Lord what businoal Lord J. RUSSELL pr o p osed to take the resolution. in he proposed to proceed wit h on Mondayoso.ax t ? , then to pro ceed with the coffee and timber-duties , to the window duties and hu , and then to take the second reading of the income-tax. Mr.FRWE N asked whether it was th e Noble Lord's intention ttine toEgo on with a Committee of Supply before Easter. RUSSELL said h o . did intend to propose the L or d J. Committee business Suvv"ly on Mild not Mon day,w but he as afraid the state o ffir. DISRAELI hoped permit him to do so. ask the House to read the Noble Lord would not Monday. the income-tax a second time on Sir B. HALL thought that the Noble Lord should opportunity of discussing the principle of the house -t ax . Heproposed taking the sense of t he House upon it. Mr• HUME. con sidered that the would • said A simp le question to be eon su would be whether they have the house tax or the window duties. .. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH E Q UER said the proposal was to proceed with the window-tax, which was a house-tax assessed in a particular way. He would propose to alter the mode of assessing that tax. The Hon. Baronet might, no doubt, if he pleased, propose to repeal both ono and the other. Mr. HUME asked whether the motion of his Hon. Friend near him was not virtually one to continue the window duties? Mr. SPOONER said, it was too late to consider these matters then. He would, therefore, move that the Chairman report progress. After a few words from Mr. IL GRATTAN and Sir B. HALL, Lord J. RUSSELL said ho had . hoped that the Committee would have assented to this resolution. As. i t a ppeared that . some Hon. Gentlemen were hdeotweerinveinr'ed $o pop the bunneos, then he could not help it. i' 4