The Sun. — London, England, 1851-03-11 00:00:00

........-.....'..,... co mp & lent siren icrease in 'ht to b 6 on ac' 51 it was probably the 51A? icrease in p b a nUME had waited with great anxiety to know "oat reason the Right Hon. Baronet could assign for :or:tinning the number of men for the navy at the pre ent athount, and the only reason he could understaiel nto as s i gn was, that be could not be indifferent to • at was passing across the Channel; but it was though,sin `tnarperhaps,the Right Hon. Baronet was „, b ee aware of it—that lately, in the French Chem won a reduction in the number of men for the navy eing proposed it was held that they ought not to re 'Lee them too much, because the English navy was kept tI P at ao large a number.—(Hear, hear.) Thus the s°'ren kept up a large number because the English did and we made the number kept up by the French an etizrcuse for our keeping up a large force as well. It was gning in a c i rc l e . H e h a d, h owever , expected to have beard from the Chan ce llo r of the Exchequer sorae ex etqhation before they were called on to vote the. number "of me n,B, of what th e coun try w as to expect from the b e get, It did no t appear , f r o m what had passed, ether the present Government meant to propose j tl ro c ; th cr Budget, b u t o f thi s he was quits sure—:hat, Ring from general opinion, both in and out of that Pai s s", the Bud et alread before the Howe could not . g h ad ; le wished his Hon. Friend (Mr. Williams) t h "'eked to o th er quar t ers , an d hat told them who 1 ,,e United States were about. If there was any part ej , e "c world to which they should look, when they lenee • uht IQ President in his message had said there were an - u O ,OOO tons of commercial shipping capable of being hi nverted to warlike purposes if required, that exietea O? other part of the world. it wa, the United States. t e e ir _ Blli P! were spread over the world nearly as much th."cse of the United Kingdom. When war was over 1 /0 1 cut down their navy, and ho would just state to the whantaewh.at they had been doing in comparison with t ar we in our madness had been doing. The b'ecre- . or! of the Admiralty in America said they has 4 7 lne-of-battle ships, 12 frigates, !upon sto v r t i t e i t 7 steamers, and 5 store-shipi, and the there were only 4 line-of-battle ships and 2 larg' l ea l 4t e 2 - But we had lying idle 74 men-of-war which t o never been to sea; had launched a number equal th e 1 0 , v , whole navy since the termination of the war; .al t„) ea vessels to rot in ordinary, and went on buildings e t° witho u t employing t h ose th a t we re already built. "Pended no less than 2,000,000 1 . a-year in pulling tot, 'Ps to • • • „ r Pieces, in building ships, and in letting them ti It was to that point he wished to call the atten e mr ,,, ° ` the House. In America the President had re :14;744d a reduction of the active list, finding that er ,Commercial navy, almost as large as our own, its present navy was too onerous to be kept up toss' n 9 would ask the Government what political rea tei,' co uld induce them to keep up a fleet of eight or si c s aiof-th e -li ne i n th e M e dit e rr a nean? All the sex.- ett : ! _that that large fleet had performed bad been to 04 ti , e tt (Treece. But was it fit, with so many peti- te lat ri their table for retrenchment, that the pre tome4tuount of the navy should be kept up without ;h at " strong reasons being assigned for it ? He sae. 1,6 0 °0 the 3d of March of this year no less than N s ' Petitions, signed by 136,696 persons, had been r : 4, l , a ted for the repeal of taxes, and Hon. Members fo r „, e ," hear in mind this vote of the number of met. le '"'Q the principal expenditure, as everything must be e le r r° Portion. The Right Hon. Baronet had referred te eheteduction which was made in the naval expenditure Pts , 9 e t he Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon te,: i ',,,cd over th e Ad m i ra lty ; b u t th e Ri g ht Hon. Baronet 1,0 0 - ' 4 have told the House that that reduction was the - '9 OOl - out of 5,000,000/., while the reduction 1,( K) 1 0 11 ght Bon. B a ronet himself had effected was only 4 041 ,0 00/. out of 8,000,0001. Earl Grey's Government, N the Moment it came into office, went on reducing hod t tYear, and at the same time improving, for they in evidence that, after reducing the expenditure th e Y 1,0 00,0001., the navy was in a better condition 44 1b efare the Right Hon. Gentleman began his re 'unlent• ofthe and Mr. Douglas, who was at one time a ei oo • Admiralty, on being asked by the Commis t4,, r s what check there was over the expenditure, said e ( 7,a8 check upon check until there was no check at icr ' irlear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member de 1 ,,,,' 13 °h, and the Government to which he belonged, Rath credit for great economy. He had no quarrel Ye tt : Q ue Government on account of the navy until the t11) 4 ,' 37 1838, when the charges became extravagant and th e i c essary. What, too. had been the consequence sine 1 84 4 ", ° rae-tax had been proposed? In the years 1843 th e 'a45,1846, and 1847,after that tax had been imposed. iti e r t !' t ithates increased no less than 27,000,0001.; the tax theep roduc e d only 26,894,000/. during the same period; 1 10 41 , 1 1 f the incoms-tax had been given up they nevet ec have had all that increase in the expenditure faelcitild not conce iv e how it was that, with the present Pee d ll .,g, of the country on the subject of reduction in ex to b v nre. the Government bad taken upon themselve- N t l ng forward these estimates until they bad explained 4 411 t hrt new Budget was to be.—(Hear, hear.) The to t h Dumber of men borne on the books of the navy had r i Years 1835, 6,7, 8, was 29,638, and that number over and over again stated to be amply suffi stele f or the service of the country. Unless he had re oer , e Politi ca l reason c l ear l y ma d e out w hy th a t num b er mo ve uot b e equally sufficient now, he should certain!) pra t t hat evening that the number of men voted for the mu t t ,„ Year should not exceed 30,000. He protested Af r i Q ' t nPhatic;llly against the longer maintenance of the Iri 4 l , tt e n squadron, an experiment which, after 20 years' h ad proved wholly ineffectual for any purpose other cite ~l h e very mischievous ono of injuring our commer itOrlh('xiou and endangering our national friendship IN we ll-dis p osed powers. There was now an excel this ° PPortunity for handsomely getting clear of C ad ,costly absurdity. The French Government o la ,`" United S ates Government had both 1 4 tegotiations with Great Britain with a view matte l ' in g relieved from their engagements in the ' I so that the grand difficulty in the way of remo t gth 'Sty , - 0 squadron, insisted upon by our Foreign Secre• ilej„,tst ) ears was at au end.—(Clear, hear.) He 11 10 ,7 1 te s t the opinion of the Committee upon the point ( lo "enieg, and he hoped he should find it disposed to terZtY not only with the African squadron, but also th aterially to reduce the squadron, or rather fleet, tli en we kept in the Mediterranean, with no other result te ei t nisebi e f an d d a nger.—(Hear, hear.) Upon these Ikti l t " 11 8 alone there might bet at once a most important effected, and he called upon the 270 gentlemen fre t th e other day demanded relief for agricultural dis tilt L e i he called upon them—(There was here a laugh at f llln 4 t; tl ,,, l `',at entirely empty condition of the Protectionist Npe) - -well, he called upon the 14 of them who had gee ","t fit to be in their places on this occasion —(Hear, tet e 7 ; he called upon them, if they desired honestly to Dre e „ - e "cf, to join with him in obtaining that which must Deed" reli e f f rom taxa ti o n—relief, namely, from ex- Ittee l , ur e•—(llcar, hear.) Perhaps a few more of those 'ctee -rnc h would come down and help him with their re after dinner.—(A laugh.) In 1835 we had under kle - ,,' ss drail 167 ships of all classes, with 36, 500 men , a 1 8qe 5 d eclared amply sufficient for every purpose. In 0 4 ,- t he number was increased to 234 ships and "kip,' Mon; and in 1848 there were voted '256 f , c/ ti 't h with 43,000 men, the number really borne hooks being 44,500. Now, this sort of thing ar ts th not be allowed to continue. It was very W i _er - ," 4 ,t just now the manufacturing and artisan classes 7tP,Vierably well off, and provisions cheap, but he had sgree or four reversals of such prosperity in his i's.': ll. l4l it was not at all impossible that he might live 4 ‘t nother—such, for example, as that of 1843; and th e like to know what would the country then say p te Presentatives who had permitted the present ex -14ti„`:41.0 to proceed?—(Hear, hear.) As to represen indeed, there could not be a greater reflection t oUr representation than the manner in which the 1 ,.4 1t:,,"° ,1 allowed the country to go on for several past without a Government, letting the people of sae -44 ,4 bandied about between three sets of men, no - ,,PPe ° ,,,, w ,uich could form a decent Administration. It ," r) tilp l i - j' A to him that Lord Stanley paid but a very poor ;e s , faeut to the Protectionist party in that House 4 1. t L f 0 ;' , Ititat e d that there was only one man among them s .g e th' ue e• Surely of the 270 gentlemen or thereabout, "to ll ,,"," other night voted for protection, there must be PI Pe talent to fill up the Treasury bench, the more ~I te rkll lY when it was borne in mind that all the real ita, lit ig n pch department was done by the clerks, who atationary.—(A laugh.) It was not merely Mr. i e g el „ 17 , 11 0 made a jest of their proceedings, they were -stock k of all Europe, and well they might be. e ,. 5 did g c not see, when the Old Doctor," as Mr. Punch I , t cs 1 , 41 ed a well.k own personage, was sent for, upon the judiciousably n advice . of the Noble Lord, that all ) ;et t , Doctot" would direct would be "As you were?" kcal th 44 not one improvement in any way connected e ,?1(1 t \ -6 departments with which he had to do, that the therefore`d not done his best to stop; for suc a (' , ti.:;, to be called in was utterly preposterous. f t s .r bi tt ;•eY didn't send for you I") No, they didn't send the doctor ad been pretty nearly as long in prac "44letne hat was sent for—CA laugh)—had the believed, t more attention to passing events for le ki ll e s h t twenty Years— (Hear, hear)—and very possibly ol dclq to t pave prescribed rather better than the other ss h ii had done.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) It n ~c !' t tit a °Pinion that the country looked upon them as k ir lults for allowing things to go on as they had gone he r , I 'g the last two or three weeks.—(Hear, hear.) r i t l ol W „ c re 658 Hon. Gentlemen, representatives of the ~,"t )r tiit lpu L Greet Britain and Ireland, utterly incapable of " 4 Y t° a decision upon great national questions one israble the other,—(Hear, hear.) There was this nai 'trod . t - is Pal Aggression Bill; why, passed as it was Of lit e A I tt that Bill would involve imminent danger e i ; i cialb e - i ; v d war in the sister country, yet 330 or 350 ee t ' s of that House had voted for it in its 'toe s t °t• He trusted that the Noble Lord would 1r). b ring in a Bill that would satisfy the coun t? at t l3°4 the subject or give up legislation upon ,?, 11 , 1 t j,,,. e ther.—(Hear, bear.) But, at all events, ) 4 11 f ee ' the business of the country be at a stand NOQ, - ' three other weeks or more. Rather than this, i i i ; ,,N li o s i , h c Should deprecate anything tending to excite ,"teer:"Pery" cry, he should say her Majesty had • 5 - ..14 • w th i Nel t o '" ' recourse to a general election. In fact, this be the only effectual remedy; for suppose "tit •„": of 39,000 men refused, the Cabinet would cry WI :14 `:,of cannot go on." The House would say, "You t e e t °T ,.'e” The Cabinet would say, "We won't get * ,"lnld Old Doctor would again be called in, there the prescription as before, of " As you were; ' tht' aie~e ferce would, for the second time, be pre ,i--(Laughter and cries of Hear. hear.") He ail,t th, e PracticallClte e q i u iC e M s i t i io t n g s e , gentlemen would look practi tivca*Y- n a' , etings, calling names, and. of getting up futile and imputing evil rno telll/41. p other people, At the Norfolk ~ meeting , the 1 :0 ti . 4 ,:" 1 3', for examp l e , w i t h a N o bl e Lord in the chair, afad or t ( ! the speakers stigmatized the parliamentary fie ' 4B as men who wanted to dethrone the Queen li Nia courage rebellion, end so on; a Mr. Ball, in par 0a 1.1 "hag languag'e which ought at once to have teetiutrohibited by the chairman. Now, what the'Pro- Ne d t 't• gentlemen should underetaed was, that there tles,,, e u e 110 relief for them, any more than for other Paql;'Su 5 uut'a there was a decided reduction in our ex. h i „ r ° , 1" l the destruction uf agriculturist mil'mono -10111 Of money h ad been trans f'rred from the pockets of the landed intersst t and very justly so, to the pockets of the masses, and he begged to tell the fourteen representatives of the Protectionist party then present—(A laugh)—that their only chance of participating in the general improvement was by aiding to reduce the expenditure. He called upon the Protectionists to join him, and to take his budget, which would give them a margin or at least 10,000,0001. With permission of the Committee, he would shadow out, the budget he should propose. In place of the 19,500,0001. for the army. navy, and ordnance, they should go back to the estimates of 1834-35 , which amounted to some 12,000,0001. t > 14,000,000/. There was a margin of 5,500,000/. at once, which, added to the present Chancellor's surplus of 2 500.0001., gave 8,000,000/. The interest of the debt, 28,000,0001., he would not touch, for he wished that that debt, large as it was, should be put in course of liquidation, and that we should pay our debts like honest men. '1 he next item was the civil list, Of that he would not take ono farthing from her Majesty, for he thought that she had at present too little for her own purposes, as she did not receive more than 60,0001. annually out of the 385,0001., the remainder being materiel away in gaudy mei useless parade. Look at the 45 lords and ladies-iu waiting, and the expenses of the Lord Chamberlain, the Lord Steward, and the Master of the Horse's department. All these should be kept within their bounds, and he celled upon the Committee not to sanction a return to the folly of George IV., who put these people all in livery, dressed them like trumpet , rs, and was not c on tent till he cut out, their coats himself —(A laugh.) The whole amount necessary for the civil list might be ohs wined from the sale of the Crown lands, which there could be no difficulty in effecting at their proper value. ['hen there were the expenses of cow is of justice, diplo matic pensions, salaries and allowances, and he asked whether out of the sum of 2.800,0001. which was thus annually consumed, at least 800,000 e might not be saved? kt the same time he would remove the whole amount of ihe assessed taxes which fell so heavily upon the lauded .;entry. Of the expense of collecting the revenue, at present between 3,000,0001. and 4,000,0001., at least one half might be saved. Again, some 7,000,0001. that was taken in the course of collection never came to the Exchequer at all. He had himself in the year 1821 detected 220,0001. in the hands of one tax collector, which would never have been heard of but for him. Slr. Herries had framed an Act intended to prevent the -epetition of such occurrences as much as possible, but he thing still continued. The actual cost to Great Bri tain of the colonies amounted to about 2,928,0001 e and that at a time when every colony was anxious to have self-government, and was competent to bear its own ex ttenses. Last of all, upon the miscellaneous estimates no nan could deny that a vast amount might be spared. This was a kind of budget which, if agreed to, would enable the Government at once greatly to reduce taxa tion, and to lessen the burdens of the people. In con olusion, the Hon. Gentleman moved an amendment to ;he effect, that in accordance with the prayers of the eumerous petitions fur relief from the burdens of taxa tion, and especially with the view of affording relief to he distress now existing among the owners and occu uiers of land, it was the duty of that House, before put ting the motion for the number of seamen and marines, to take into its serious consideration in what manner and to what extent the number of men and ships might be reduced without detriment to the naval service of the country; that the Aftican squadron was a useless and expensive addition to the naval establishment, and should, in the opinion of that House, be di'con tinued; and that the number of seamen and marines to be voted for the year should be reduced to 30,000, which was the average of the four years between 1835 and 1839. , The CHAIRMAN observed that that was a resolu tion pledging the House to a certain opinion, which it was not competent for his Hon. Friend to propose. The vote was that 39,000 men should be employed. It would be for the Committee to adopt that vote, to nega tive it, or to limit it. Mr. HUME—Then, I move as an amendment that the number be 30,000. On the question being put, Mr. APGREGOR said, the Committee should be very unwilling to come to any vote of expenditure until they were acquainted with the means of revenue. lie consi lered that the present system was faulty in itself trom eeginning to end. He especially deprecated the system of the naval dockyards. He believed that 2,000,000/. was spent annually in those yards which might be re faced to at least a third of that amount, and a more fficient navy be the result. No private concern iu the world could send ships to sea without positive ruin if the construction were managed on the same principle os was pursued in the naval dockyards of this country. lie found that we had a greater number of ships of the line, and of much greater force and tonnage, than the whole number of similar vessels in all the navies of every state in Europe besides. It was absurd to talk about he necessity of protecting our commercial marine, for it was fully competent to protect itselt. He believed that single firms of this country could actually de feat the whole fleets of some nations. He knew one firm sending out twenty ships to India which amounten to a greater tonnage than the whole Danish fleet; and he knew another firm in the Clyde • hat had vessels amounting to a greater tonnage than the whole American navy. Ile considered that our mer ,antile marine possessed a fleet that might terrify the navy of every other country in the world except France. l'he naval strength of France consisted of but 226 ships end 102 steam•ships, in all 326; and she had but two admiral', 10 vice admirals, 20 rear-admirals, 110 cap [sins of the first class, 230 captains of the second, 650 lieutenants of marine, 550 midshipmen, and 300 subor dinate officers, a very small portion of whom belonged to what in England was called the " nun-efficient" branch of the service. During the seven years from 1832 to 1838 inclusive, the average amount of ',awn ex penditure was 4,474.747!. In 1939 it increased about 1,000,0001 above that average, even above the expendi ture of 1838. In 1842 it increased shove the average of the same seven years no less than 2,165 4161., and it continued increasing until in 1848 it amounted to 8,157,287/. He must give the Right lion. Gentleman at present at the head of the Admiralty credit for some reductions since that time. The estimate for the year ending April 5, 1851, deducting 58,9281. for the Arctic Expedition, and 9 772/. for registering seamen, amounted to 5,339,652/. The estimate now before the Committee was 5,727,2591., being a net decrease of 112,3951. But still there was an excess over the seven years from 1832 to 1838, inclusive of 1,252,512/. That excess might be in part accounted for by the additional expenditure occasioned by the construction of steam ships-of-war; but he thought a great number of those vessels would eventu ally turn out to be utterly useless. Such constant changes and improvements took place in the construc tion of stearn-ships that the probability was, that in the course of five or six years not 10 out of all the steam vessels now in the navy would be deemed efficient. He considered that this country ought to maintain such a navy as would be at all times sufficiently strong to repel any attack on the part of a foreign power; but, unless all the fleets of Europe combined to attack them, their pre sent naval force was sufficiently powerful to defeat any aggression; believing that it was most improbable. if not impossible, that such a combination could ever take place he did not see why they :should keep up a force equal in strength to that of all the European Powers together. He thought that the estimate for this year, instead of being above 5,700,0001., ought to be reduced to 5,000,0004 if not even below that amount. He considered that they ought entirely to abolish the dockyards at Deptford, Chatham, and Pembroke. The ground occupied by the yard at Deptford would afford the accommodation so much required for the large number of steam vessels which now entered the port of London. The dockyard at Pembroke had been managed in a most scandalously extravagant manner ; the expense of building ships there had been at least one-Ceird more than it ought to have been, and the abandonment of that establishment would at once effect a considerable saving of the public money. He knew it was usual fur the represereatives of the Admiralty to assert that ships built by contract were not efficient, but if that were so, what wa s the cause of their inefficiency? It was the constant meddling of the Admiralty with their construction. If the Gove rnment ships were built with the skill which had been displayed in heed nstruction of the Cunard line of packets, he bel that they would not only encounter any weather, but that they would require repairs much less frequently than many of the ships now iu the Royal Navy. He would suggest, in addition, that the port of Sheerne ss should be main tained as a naval station merely for repairing vessels . . His difficulty with regard to the proposed vote for 39,000 men was this, that he had no confidence that the House would pass the income-tax iu its present shape, , or that they would san c ti o n that tax at all, and the financial affairs of the country were involved in so much diffi culty that he hesitated to assent to any vote of the pub lic money until he knew how the revenue was to be ob tained. He looked forward to a diminished expenditure as a means of reducing taxation, and he thought they might safely reduce the number of men voted for the service of the navy to something nearer the number main tained when the Right Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) was First Lord of the Admiralty, with a view to effecting a further reduction next year. For the time was come when they must seriously examine the whole of their finances. In the present age of progress, with steam-presses, steam-railroads, and steam-ships, and the consequently increased intercourse with all parts of the world, they could not go on much long e r w ithout taking a comprehensive view of our whole system of taxation. It was with such a conviction on his mind that he found himself unable to vote for so large a num b er as 39,000 men for the nava l service. Ho came to this conclusion with groat reluctance, and not from the l eas t d es ire to offer a factious opposition to the First Lord of the Ad miralty, or any other member of the Government; but in acting as he was about to do, he felt he was only doing his duty to his constituents and to the whole of her 11 's tax-paying subjects.—(Hear, h ear .) s m r l . DEN said that it the Committee ag ree d t o e o s t 3 y vote the number of men now proposed for the n av y, it would be in vain to t hink of materially reducing the amount of the income-tax. die had a very strong im pression, founded upon experience Committeesin which Lad considered the army and ordnance estimates, au opinion which every day's experience had confirm e d, and which that evening's discussion had not shaken, that there was a delusion both in the country and the House on the part of those who thought that any considerable saving could be effected in the expenditure for the navy without a reduction in the amount of the force main tained. If they went back to 1835, and cause down to the present time, marking the redactions which had been made in the army, the navy, or the ordnance, or in all combined, they would see that the number of men voted had generally afforded a fair test or index of the amount of money spent. He did- not say there might not be some disturbing cause, arising, for instance, from an ex traordinary expenditure upon steamships ; but, as a rule, he maintained that, the number of men voted afforded a fair index of the amount of money re quired. The Right 'Honourable Member for Ripo u (sir James Graham)--of whose administrative tact§ 11 Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who was rather indistinctly heard at the commencement of his speech, said, I wilt only eater into the question of the number of men fur the navy, and not into the grave charges which have been made with respect to the management of the dock yards and other places, matters which belong more pro perly to the department of the Admiralty. Still less Sir, am I disposed to go over the vast field travelled by the Hon. Member for Montrose, who, not having been sent for on a late occasion, has, notwithstanding, fol lowed the example of Lord Stanley, and explained what his policy would have been had he been seat for— (Laughter)—and what measures, bad he taken office, he would have proposed in the capacity of the head of the Government.—(Laughter.) I shall not follow the H)n. Gentlemen into that very extensive field. I shall speak merely of that which is the mist important subject before the House, the number of men we should vote for th , navy, and I will not disagree with the Hon. Member for the West Riding, that the sum total of our naval expen diture is very much decided by the number of men voted. I cannot at the same time admit, with the Honourable Gentleman the Member for the Wear Riding, that because there is an outcry now against the wastefulness in the dockyards, 'and because there is an outcry now against the political patronage. which he says effects every person who is employed in the dockyards, that therefore we are to presume that those accusations are well founded. Oa the contrary, I believe that a great deal of wastefulness and abuse ha, been corrected for many years past, and I believe that with regard to patronage, great improvements have been made of late years in the mode of these appointments (as we understood the Noble Lord). As for the outcry oe these subjects, we know that long after an abuse has ceased, the same outcry will continue, because mara years ago, when there were a great number of sinecures, great complaints were made upon that subject, and sic Act of Parliament was passed whereby the whole of the sinecures were abolished, and yet there is as much out cry now nearly as at that time, and we have continued complaints now of the existence of a great number of sinecures. Now, with respect to the number of men, I beg the House to consider that what we are now propo sing is not a number increased beyond the average which we have now kept up for about ten years. Ia 1841 the number of men voted was 43,000; and so on for the sue ceding years, 43,000, 39,000, 46,000, 40,000, 41,000, 42,000, 40,000, 39,000, 39,000. Those have been the numbers in past years. Therefore we are not proposing, as the House might suppose from the statement of the Hon. Member, at tbis time a very large increase in the number of our navy, but I do think that there are some general considerations which should induce the House not to make any considerable reduction in the numbers of that amount. I cannot but consider that of late years, and since 1835, and since that period when my Right Honourable Friend the Member for Ripon was at the head of the Admiralty, there has taken place a very great change in naval affairs, and one which must make a very great change in any war in which this country may in future be involved. Since that time the whole of the construction of large war steamers has taken place both in this country and in France, and by other naval powers, and we have seen of late years—not having been engaged in those wars ourselves—to what purpose these large steamers and railways have been employed in carrying on rapidly those operations which would take place at the com mencement of a war. We have seen many thousand men transported in a few days from France to Civita Vecchia, and landed in the neighbourhood of the in tended seat of warlike operations, The time that ope ration took was exceedingly short; and the men were transported without any difficulty. Last autumn, when there was an expection of war between Austria and Prus sia, 20,000 men, I think, were conveyed from Vienna in 48 hours to the frontier of Bohemia, and in the course of a fortnight 70,000 men were collected on that fron tier. Now, these things show that in case of war an enemy would be able, in the first place, to transport to his coast a number of men in a few days, which formerly would have taken months to collect; and allowing for accidents of wind and weather, they would be able in a few hours to transport these men thus collected to our shores. Now, Sir, these changes in the art of war ap pear to me to place this country much more in the po sition of a continental country than it ever was before. We do not altogether resemble a continental country, but still we must look a little as to what means all the continental countries take for their own defence. We see that they keep up enormous armies. We see that in addition to those armies they keep a prodigious force of militia. Even the United States of America, whose ex ample the Hon. Member for llontrose has quoted so much, I believe they have now a million of men enrolled as militia in the United States — Mr. HUME here made a remark which did not reach the gallery. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I am now talking of the military means of defence. Now we have not adopted the means which have been taken by continental powers, or even by the United States in this respect. We have not got a large army; substracting from our whole army the troops in India and in the colonies, and our army, us compared with that on service in France, or even ot any of the second-rate powers on the continent, is a very small army. Nor have we thought proper to adopt the plan of having a large militia force. There is very great difficulty in adopting a plan for a militia force in this country; difficulties and objections which, I think, would make the adoption of any plan founded on the former plan for the militia exceedingly objectionable if it was brought before this House. But admitting that you might have a militia force you have not one at present, and therefore you are in this country obviously, and in the knowledge of all the worl,i, without a great army and without a militia force, and therefore I say if that is the case, take care at all events that you have an effisient naval force. Do not part with that great arm of defence that you have, and do not expose yourselves to this, that for the first six months of war you might be utterly un able to send out a sufficient force to meet the hostile ope rations of your enemies. The Rol. Gentleman mentioned France; and certainly the more powerful naval arma ments of France and the many wars that we had had with France, induces one natutally to turn one's eye rather to that power than to others. But there are other powers. We might be at war with Russia and Austria, and at the seine time engaged in a friendly alliance with France. In that case, also, we ought to be able to have a sufficient naval force to meet any aggres sions which might take place. I cannot—though I cer tainly do not give way to the apprehensions that have been expressed, and the estimates that have been made of the means by which, if France were at war with us, they might immediately land 50,000 or 100,000 men on our shores; but still I do not think it is at all out of the question that in case of any war arising with France, there might be an attempt made by a very considerable armament to land troops in this country; and I should he very sorry that, in that case, we had no means to prevent them, a naval force, if possible, from effecting any successes. slut, Sir, there is another way in which Prince de Joinville, iu a we might be met, and a way that wc.s pointed out by a very intelligent naval officer, pamphlet, which you may remember he published many years ago, and that was by having small detachments and continual small expeditions to vex our coasts and in terrupt our trade. Nuw, Ibe the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding to observe, that injurious as those operations might be—hurtful as they might be to our trade, and our wealth, and our resources in former times—the late change that we have made in respect to the corn-laws makes such operations far more injurious than they would otherwise be. For the last two or three years we have had eight or nine million quarters of grain imported —(lronical cheers from the ~ what a loss it would be to this y practice of having a part of Protectionists.) ot country, co tui no et into r s t: b) e thisin Now, g country.—(lronical in u n think the t y our food, to the amount of eight or nine million quar ters coming from foreign countries, if, in the event of a war, we had no naval force, and were unable to obtain that food.—(Renesvcd cheers from the Protectionists.) I am, therefore, of opinion that necessary as it was to have a naval force to protect our trade in all former wars, that a nation which, like ours, allows a free importation of grain, and which is now in the habit (and it is a practice which may continue) of importin g eight or nine million quarters of grain annually, is still mere under the neces sity of having a naval force than a nation which does not derive so large a quantity of food from foreign coun tries. It is obvious that the more our trade is extended the more we require the naval force in case of war to be extended also. The Hon. Gentleman alludes to the ar maments made by France, and says that it is not neces sary for us to keep up a larger force than France, and that we might have an agreement with them by which w ct i l t y h this force might be mutually re . duccd. But we have besides the necessity of defending our own coasts. We have the necessity of defending our trade, not with nations in the state of the United States ot Ame rica, with which our commerce may be carried on with outeirs.ny small States, somand others of which are eery little in the habit of keeping good faith with regard to the property of our merchants that some risk of whichof interruption , areve r very imperfectly fe reside in their territory. 1 herefore France is not at all under the necessity of keeping up her naval force to the amount that we aro obliged to keep ours up. I think that we are obliged to keep up a naval force for that purpose, besides the purposes of defence which we are obliged to look to. I own, therefor e , that I cannot think that the proposal to keep up 3 9,000 men in the present year is at all exc essive. And wish regard to the general defence, let me observe that it the year 1845, when, to all appearance, we were on ths most friendly terms with France, there arose a cause of difference, upon which the sense of honour and ;he susceptibly of the two nations were very much ; exeoste, and it re quired the moderation shown in the greatest degree by both the Governments of France and Eng and to prevent hostilities breaking out on that occasion. B u t t h e resu lt was that the Government of this country, all considering our means of defence, thought we were ve-y ill prepared for those hostilities, and immediately a very large in crease was made in the naval expentiture of this country, and the expenditure, which bad been 6,466,000/. with the packet servic e, was raised immediately to 7,344,0001. Next year, in 1846-47, it va s 7,920,0001. The expense of last year was very much below that—it was 6,362,0001., being rather more than a m illi on l ess than the expense in 1845 . Now it that 'V the case— if the Government of 1845 thought we we-sin consider able i danger at that time, and thus ncreased the expen diture, and we have now reduced the expeeditare by the amount of a million—l think it is some symptom that it is not a very extravagant e xpenditure Vuich we now propose. The Hon. Member for Montrose has intro duced the question of the African squadron. I shall not go into a general discussion of that subject; but this I must say, that I think this House has reason to be proud of the vote to which they came last year, that that squadron should not be abandoned. It was then represented to them that our efforts were entirely useless, that the slave trade was increasing, th at i t was quite impossible that we ehould be able effectually to prevent it, and many other things; that vessels we:e built that would carry ou the slave trade so successfully that the efforts of our cruisers would bo defeated. Well, the HOUR opproyed of the continuance of oue had a higher opinion than he entertained, for he hed had the honour of sitting with that Right Hen. Baronet upon the same Comanttre for three years, and he well knew his mastery of details, awl the comprehen sive knowledge he displayed—(Hear, hear) —had exer cised a most ust fat sway at the Admiralty from le3o to 1534, and, applying the test he had mentioned to the ductions made by that Bight Hon. Gentleman, it would be found that while he had reduced the t xpenditure from about 5,600,000/. to 4,600,0001. there had been in the four years a reduction in the number of men fro n 32,000 to 26,000, so that the percentage reduction of the number of men was nearly as large as the percentage reduction of money. He thought, then, it was a delu sion to suppose that there would be any large reduction in the expeediture for our armaments unless by a reduc• Lion of force. It was not difficult to account for the reason of this. In dealing with the navy they dealt with the largest manufacturing concern in this king dom, or perhaps in the world—a concern em ploying upwards of 10,000 persona, many of them skilled artis me. Now, there was a maxim which he thought nobody would dispute—that the worst of all manufacturers was a Government.—(Hear, hear.) Whether a Government undertook to build ships, to manage woods and forests—(flean . , hear) —or este b lish national workshops, it was a wel—undi rstcol maxim that a Government would do any of those things worse then an individual. It was then, he conceived, quite easy to account for the reason why, in building ships, a Go vernment necessarily waste} a great deal of money. There was a constant outcry against profligate and wasteful expenditure t f money in the dockyards . , and people jumped at the conclusion that this expenditure would be prevented if the subject was inquieed into. He had been engaged f,r a whole session upon a Committee for inquiring into the navy estimate-; it was more than two years since that inquiry was concluded, and if any good was to result from the investigation of the Com mittee they ought to have the benefit now; but yet be found the cry as loud at this day as it ever had been against the waste and extravagance in the dockyards. Now, could he for a moment pretend to say that any thing was done by that Committee which was likely to lead to any considerable change in the made of conduct ing the business of the dockyards? No; every person connected with the dockyards who was examined before the Committee, protested that everything under his charge was done better than it could be done by private individuals. All the witnesses, whether superintendents of shipyards or manufacturers of gunpowder, laboured to show that their own particular departments were better managed than they could be by private indivi duels ; and it was natural enough that they should enter tain such opinions, because they had not the same means as private individuals of being brought to the knowledge that they were mistaken iu their mode of conducting business. They had no annual stock -taking—( dear, hear) —they had no yearly balance-sheet to prepare— (Hear) —but whenever they wanted money they came to that House for a couple of millions.—(A laugh.) The consequence was that they still went on making the same mistakes now that were made ten years ago, and so long as the Government continued to carry on this great manufacturing business they would have the same waste andj extravagance that bad hitherto existed. Now, entertaining the conviction that they could not correct these evils, which he considered to be inherent in all Government establishments, by merely denouncing extravagance and corruption, he always turned towards the force employed, and inquired whether by any means a reduction of that force could be effected, because if they could make a reduction of 10,000 men, they would reduce just in the same proportion the amount of public money expended, and the per centage of waste and loss by mismanagement. Nay, he thought they would even do more, because he believed that a small establishment would be carried on with a less per centage of waste than a large one, inas much as it could be managed by fewer superintendents. If they looked at the dockyards under the present sys tem it would be seen that they were a political institu tion from beginning to end.—(Hear, hear.) There was not an individual connected with the Admiralty—from the First Lord to the lowest labourer—who did not be come more or less a political instrument in the hands of somebody; for either he was looking up to the Secretary of the Admiralty for patronage, or the Secretary kept a watch upon him because he possessed some political in fluence; and, generally speaking, the persons engaged about the public establishments, down to the very lowest shipwrights, were independent of those who ought to have the absolute power of disposing of their services. Ile (Mr. Cobden) looked, then, to a reduction of force as the means of reducing the expenditure fur the navy. Was it necessary, he asked, to keep up at this time a force of 39,000 men? In 1835 they had a force of only 25,000 men; why should they maintain 14,000 additional men now? This was not a motion of the Peace Society for the abolition of the navy, and he hoped it would be dealt with by Hon. Gentlemen opposite as a question of degree. Why should not 25,000 men suffice for the navy now, as they did in 1835? Was this country in any greater political or national danger now than it was at that time? There were in 1835 some very grave national questions unsettled—the question of boundary with the United States of America, a dispute with Russia threatening war. and a misunderstanding with France relative to the affairs of Tahiti and Syria. These questions were now disposed o''; there were no dynastic quarrels—no boundary questions pending; and this country was in a position in which no hostilities were to be apprehended. Where, then, was the neces sity for keeping up the large amount of force now pro posed? He knew only two reasons why they should keep a navy at all; one was that, as a maritime nation, they had a large amount of merchant shipping to pro tect, and the other, that a navy was necessary to de fend their coasts from enemies. He did not suppose they kept up a navy to commit aggressions upuu other states, but it was to protect their commerce and their shores. Now, he thought vary exagge rated notions prevailed as to the use and occasion of their navy for the protection of British com merce. Generally 'speaking, this country had commer cial treaties with, or sent ambassadors to, every ;state with which its people engaged in commercial transac tions. Our greatest exports were to the United States, and it was a subject of remark in their newspapers it ever they saw an Eaglish ship of war in any of their harbours. We carried on a very large portion of our trade with the continent of Europe, and we had consuls everywhere; our merchants were in no danger of having their ships seized or their rights violated. It was not the ordinary state of things to which we were subject, and therefore our commerce, generally, did not require a large number of ships of war in its train. He (Mr. Cobden) did not mean to say that small ships were not required as a police in time of peace. In that respect we might take a lesson from the United States; they had not a line-ob battle ship in commission—the last was withdrawn from the Pacific about a twelvemonth ago. The great bulk of their vessels were of 10-guns and 16- guns, and they were strictly used as a police force. — (Hear, hear.) True, Englan - d had relations which, for tunately for them, the United States had not. But, with regard to the necessity of a fleet for political objects, to wards what country did we generally look for a justifica tion or incentive for our large armaments? The Right Hon. Gentleman had invoked the example of France; now, wee it not singular that at the very time we were talking here in this strain France was quoting our example as a justification for her keeping up her navy? Some gentlemen might have observed the argument to that effect in the Ordre of the 19th of last month. [The Hon. Member read the passage, which referred to the comparative amount of the screw power possessed by the two countries.] Statements had been made that even ing respecting the preparations at Cherbourg. Tne Times correspondent at Paris, in his communica tion published iu that paper of the 6th inst., said that a credit for the continuance of the works at Cherbourg was defended on the ground of those which we were car rying on upon the opposite coast; and Admiral Cecille pointed out the advantage of placing Cherbourg beyond the danger of an att e3k from an enemy. He (Mr. Cobden) had quoted in that House before from speeches of Thiess, Latnartine, and other leading men in the French Assembly, showing that they measured their navy by the standard of England; they only aimed at two-thirds of our force; but, if we augmented our navy, they were obliged to keep themselves in some thing like that relative position.—(Hear, hear.) Now, should we not consider the consequences upon the finances of France ? The most able men in France found it hard to foresee how that country was to emerge from its financial difficulties ; they felt that while strengthening their navy and fortifying their coast, they were adding to that danger and difficulty within, from which the wisest men saw no way of escape. Was it well in us to imitate France, with the prospect of w d e iti r ships odng si milar results?—(Hear, hear.) When we saw France building the and like, n w when w e coasts persevered merely doingc a se we it merely because France was doing the same, did it not strike one as possible that some arrangement or under standing might be come to between the two countries — (H !ar)—by which this supreme lolly might be abated? --(Hear, hear.) It was child's play—a game at " beggar my neighbour"—(Hear, hear)—without the slightest occasion to justify it. He (Mr. Cobden) hoped the House would allow him on a future occasion to submit a motion for asking her Majesty to direct her Minister to present a proposal with a view to prevent a continuance of this system, and, if possible, to enter upon a course of mu tual reductions. England, of all countries, was in a po sition to make such an advance without the possibility of being misunderstood. France herself did not deny our immense superiority as a maritime nation; and it was inconsistent with the advanced civilization of this age that two great nations professing amity should be arming to the teeth, as if reach expected the other to spring upon it like a wild beast.—(Hoar.) He could not think it impossible that such a system might lee put an cud to, if diplomacy brought its energies to the task. Diplomacy was not very much at a premium in the world at present, but if it could accomplish such an object it would do much to retrieve its reputation.—(Hear.) Let Honourable Members not forget that they were now asked to vote 5,700,000/., and that there would be 800,000/. to follow for the packet service, which must be regarded as strictly coming under the denomination of " naval services." The vessels we had engaged to carry our mails—Cunard's, for instance—were about the most formidable war steamers : there were no steam-vessels belonging to any foreign navy equal to them. The navy estimates, therefore, really amounted to 6,500.000/., as the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated in his Budget. Only 19,500,0001, of the expenditure came before the House at all to be voted in the annual estimates, and 15,500,0001, of that sum went for the armaments — Army, Navy, and ordnance; and if above a quarter of the whole was now to be voted without any reduction whatever, how could gentlemen by-and-by, without in consistency, vote for a reduction of taxatio n ?— ( Hear. ) The project of some gentlemen, to transfer their taxa tion to other shoulders, was impracticable ; there was nobody in the country that would bear more taxation, especi.lly to relieve somebody else.—(Hear, hear.) Ile saw no way of relief but in a reduction of our armed force; and ho thought we might safely return to a force cf 50,000 mow—(lleor.) THE SUN, LONDON/ TUESDAY EVENING, AIARCII it, 1851. that squadron, and among other consequences of that vote, the Brazilian Government, seeing that the Parliament and the Government of this country were in earnest, have passed laws to prevent the slave-trade, and the immediate consequence was that the steamers held by slave-dealers in Brazil were immediately sold, lam glad to say at a very great loss, and many of the slave feelers were ruined. The captures became more nume rous, and in an acconnt which arrived within these two lays from the Brazilian Consul at Rio Janeiro, there is this passage—" I have also enclosed a return showing ihe number of slaves landed on a certain portion of this coast during the six months ending December 31, 1850, showing that in the latter half of the year 1850 the total number of slaves landed on this extent of coast was 5,108; while the number during the latter six months of he three years 1847, 1848, and 1849 averages upwards of 24,000." So that the last year was very little more than one- fifth of the average of those landed in the cor responding period of the three preceding years. Now, say this circumstance is encouraging to the Govern ment of this country to proceed in this great work. It is one in which we have been many years engaged, and every one, I think, must admit that it would cover us with shame and humiliation if we had left that { rent work unfinished, and allowed the slave trade co begin again and to be carried on to the extent which it was before. Great exaggerations are made with respect to the coat of this slave squadron. I think that it cannot bo denied that even if you abandoned the attempt to put down the slave trade, you must keep 4 squadron on the coast of Africa at those parts where the slave trade does not exist; you cannot allow your legitimate trade to be destroyed by pirates, and I doubt much whether you would find that yeu had saved more than 200,0001. or 250,000/. per annum, making the most retrenchment which you could, and allowing the slave trade to go on. Now, if that is the case, as I believe it is, seeing that we nave made in the last year more pro gress than we had done for many years before—seeing chat there is a prospect on the coast of Brazil of putting an end to that trade, and if it is put an end to on the coast of Brazil, there will then be only Cuba left—seeing this prospect before us, I trust that whatever other re trenchment this House may make, they will not make a retrenchment of that part of our naval force which is required for the suppression, and, I hope, the final ex tinction of the slave trade.—(Hear, hear.) That, I chink, would be a glory to this country, that having, by its own efforts, put an end to the slave trade and slavery in our dominions, and having by its example and effects on all nations, put an end to the slave trade of many other countries, that we should finally put an end to the lave trade in Brazil and Cuba, and thereby have the satisfaction of saying that England had been the cause of the slave trade being abolished all over the world. Mr. M. GIBSON dissented from the argument used by the Noble Lord to the effect that circumstances arising out of the policy of free trade rendered it ne cessary to keep a large naval force for the protection of commerce. The Noble Lord represented that we were dependent on foreign countries for supplies of grain; and therefore it was unnecessary to pause before the pro posal of a reduction in the naval force was entertained.— (Hear, hear.) On that question ho was entirely at issue with the Noble Lord. Ho was of opinion, in the first place, that the free-trade policy having increased our commercial intercourse with other nations had increased our shipping and the number of our sailors, and had made the facilities for manning our fleet greater in a case of sudden emergency. The free-trade policy further in troduced a tie of mutual interest among nations, which was the strongest guarantee for the maintenance of peace. Instead of making defences more necessary, it rendered them less so. The Noble Lord represented the Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, and others had done the same elsewhere, as one who proposed to do away with the navy. The question was one of degree. What force was it necessary to maintain at present, having regard to the welfare and safety of the country? It was not fair to represent those who thought a less amount than then Government proposed as indifferent to the existence of any naval force. The Noble Lord spoke of steamers; but it was always understood that it required fewer men to man steamers than sailing ships. One of the Lords of the Admiralty, as he was informed, had stated that in two months he could fit out 100 steamers for war purposes. If so, the argument founded on the alleged necessity of keeping employed the large number of men proposed in the vote was considerably weakened. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had referred to the steps taken by the Brazilian Government for the sup pression of the slave trade. There woo an anti-slave trade party in Brazil; and the effect olßritish inter ference, menace, and vexatious irritation had been to postpone till the present time the successful operations of that anti-slave party; the sense of national inde pendence being touched by the attempt to force, as it were, at the cannon's mouth, the Brazilian Govern ment to abolish the slave trade. Mr. CARDWELL observed, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had raised a point which had often been raised in that House, but on which his argument would appear on reflection to be more plausible than sound. The Right Hon. Gentleman attributed the new exertions made by the Brazilian Government to a change in the disposition of the Brazilian people, consequent on the removal of the irritation which he described as being oc casioned by the policy of this country. What were the facts of the case?—(Hear, hear.) In former times we had been feeble in our efforts, and the Brazilians feeble and inactive. Last session a motion, based on the report of a Committee, was brought forward in that House, and a strenuous effort made to induce it to reverse its policy. The House took a far wiser and more enlightened view. —([lear, hear.) It solemnly affirmed that policy. And what occurred in Brazil? A degree of vigour and ac tivity was imparted to the operations of the British consul at the Court of Brazil such as had not occurred before. What took place ? A vessel of her Majesty, actieg not without an understanding with the Brazilian Government, took possession of Brazilian vessels en gaged in the slave trade on the coast of Brazil. The guns of a Brazilian fort were brought to bear on the British vessel. The fort was bombarded. and the guns sil-nccd. What next occurred ? The Brazilian Minister for Foreign Affairs being questioned in the Chamber of Deputies, used these words—he quoted from memory, but there were lion. Members present who could correct him if necessary— " With respect to the insult offered to our country, we will endeavour to give the hest account. But let me tell you this, if you believe you can succeed in maintaining the slave trade, when a country like Great Britain has solemnly recorded her determination to prevent it, you are greatly mistaken."—(Hear, hear.) He had read in the Times newspaper that the declaration of the Foreign Minister of Brazil was received with applause. As the Noble Lord the First Minister had stated, the measures for the suppression of the slave trade had been so suc cessful ou the coaet of Brazil that, although slaves had been imported, their number for the last SIX months of 1850 was not a fifth of the average fur the corresponding mouths of the three years preceding. He (Mr. Card well) entirely concurred in the geaerous sentiments expressed by the Noble Lord—(Hear, hear)—and, having en gaged in the cause, he most earnestly hoped, when there was so great a prospect of success , that this country would not cease from using its best efforts to suppress the slave trade.—(Hear. hear.) Admiral BERKELEY stated that the Right Hon. Member for Manchester, in quoting an observation at tributed to him (Admiral Berkeley)„ supplied a text in favour of the argument for the continuance of the larger body of men. In his evidence he had said that he thought 100 steamers, fitted as auxiliaries in time of war might be taken from the merchant service; but he had not said he could find men to send those vessels to sea with. But the present number of men in the navy would form the nucleus of a larger force, consisting of men ac customed to guns; it vas necessary they should be so in the state of gunnery in every nation. Formerly a ship might be manned with the best seamen going; but a ship could no longer be manned with those men unless they had been trained to the perfect knowledge of gun nery which wae taught now. A body of seamen gunners would boat double their number of seamen unacquainted with gunnery as practised in modern times. Mr. PLUMPTRE thought that, if he followed the example of the lion, Member for Montrose, he should only be illustrating the proverb, " Penny wise and pound foolish." Under the circumstances of the times he should support the vote. Mr. S. CRAWFORD intimated that he should sup• port the amendment of the Hon. Member for Montrose, having been sent to that House to promote the princi ples which used to be those of the Whig party, namely, "Peace, retrenchment, and reform." Colonel THOMPSON was obliged, on the ground just stated, to give his vote with the Hon. Member for ,Niontrose, but protested against being seduced by any of the reasons that Hon. Gentleman had offered in sup port of the amendment.—(Hear, and a laugh.) With regard to the income-tax, :which had been referred to, au opinion was becoming prevalent that it was a very good tax, and that it should be rendered eternal. Mr. HUME thought that the Hon. and Gallant Colo nel must have been asleep while he (Mr. Hume) was speaking—(A laugh)—for he had not mentioned the in come-tax once during that evening. Colonel THOMeSON—Oh, yes, you did. Mr. HUME—No, I did not. The Hon. and Gallant Colonel has said that be is not induced to vote for my motion by the arguments I advanced in support of it; but he has forgotten to tell us what are his own reasons for voting for it.—(Laughter.) The Committee divided, and the numbers were— For Mr. flume's amendment ... 61 Against it ..• ... 169 Majority ... ••• --108 The original motion was then agreed to, as were the following votes:- 1,435,7331., for the wages of seamen and marines. 500,6321., for victuals for seamen and marines. It was then proposed that 138,6251. should be granted to defray the expense of the Admiralty.: Colonel SIBTHORP braid, that although the Whigs always recommended economy when out of office, they never practised it when in. The Lords of the Admiralty were generally of little me. For his part he believed that some of the present Lords did not know a 74 from a barge, and when his Right Honourable and respected relative (the Chancellor of the Exchequ, r) was Secretary to the Admiralty he NS as sick in a punt in the Thames. He proposed to reduce the salary of the First Lora of the Admiralty from 4 500/. to 3,500/., in conse quence of the reduction which had taken place in fish, meat, and ull the other free-trade advantages which he possessed.—(Laughter.) Ile proposed to strike off the salaries of the two lay Lords a ltogether, thus saving other 2,0004 The salary of the First Secre tary he would reduce from 2.0 00 / to 1,5001., of the Second Secretary from 1,500/. to I,OOOL, and that of the solicitor from 1,600/. to 1,0001.; waking altogether a reduction of 4,600/. Hie or:trenc:stela, therefore, was o,d - that w t o h u e l d v t i v e i d b e e th r II " c o e u d s ef from o p m e Mr. WILLIAMS acid be f ound that the present vote 138,6251• e f t u o u se conder.nll34,llo2s WWI 11,8004 more than the corresponding vote of 1845, r while the number of men was about the same. This re- Somerset-house by the surveyors of the Admiralty woule quired explanation. I soon be required by the Board of Excise, anu, if his Sir F. BARING repeated the statement he made in i Right Hon. Friend (the Cuancellor of the Exchequer) his opening speech, that a considerable additional ex- were prepared to give the Admiralty a house nearer pense had arisen from the gradual increase of the sa- Whitebait, he should be quite ready to transfer the Ad laries from long service. Last year, however, there was a miralty surveyors to it without any loss of time. diminution of 1,100/. a year from the abolition of an The Committee then divided, when there appeared— ' office. Part of the increase since 1844-45 was owing For the vote ... .., .., ... 193 to the additional officers required for the steam depart- For Colonel Sibthorp'a amendment ... 34 men t.—( Hear, bear.) Majority ... ,„ ... —159 Mr. El fZROY was sorry the Hon. and Gallant The original motion was then agreed to. Member (Colonel Sibthorp) had proposed so large a re- On our re-admission, duction in the vote, because if he persevered in the amend- Colonel SIBTHORP was addressing the Committee. ment, it would place him in this unpleasant position, He said, that in proposing the amendment just negatived that thinking the reduction beyond what the effieiency of he had performed his duty, adding, " I have lost all con the service wou ld admit of, he could not conscientiously fidence in them ;"—referring, as we understood, to the support it ; while being of opinion, on the other hand, gentlemen who usually sit on the benches below him. — that a certain reduction was practicable, he could not (Cheers and laughter on the Ministerial side.) Colonel support the proposition of the Government. He hoped, Sibthorp then lett the House amid loud and continued therefore, the Hon. and Gallant Member would modify cheering from the Ministerial party. his amendment, a nd ena bl e him to vote with him.— On the question, that a sum of 48,6351. be granted for (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Fitzroy) had stated to the Com- the expenses of the scientific branch of the naval service, mittee last year, and he still retained the opinion, that Mr. HUME complained of the high price at w hich there might be a reduction in this vote; and he held this the Nautical Almanack was sold. In his opinion a pub opinion with the greater confid e nce after reading the lication sa important to the safety of life and property evidence given by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Bat- ought to be witbin the reach of every class. If the price ing) himself before the Committee on Official Salaries, were lowered more money would be made of the work and also the evidence of the Right Hon. Gentleman the —the more they reduced the price the more copies they Member for Ripen. [Here the Hon. Gentleman quoted would sell. an extract from the evidence of Sir F. Baring with re- Tote agreed to. gard to the duties actually performed by the different The next vote was 134,6991. for the expenses of the Lords of the Admiralty.] He (Mr. Fitzroy) would establishments at home. maintain, without fear of contradiction, that if they corn- Mr. HUME objected to the expenses of Pembroke bined. the departments of the civil lords with the medi- dockyard. cal and vistualliug department, one man could perform Sir F. T. BARING contended for the great importance the business of the two departments quite satisfactorily, of that establishment. at the sacrifice of one or two hours every day. Mr. HUME considered it to he inordinately ex- Mr. HENLEY said, that the Hon. Gentleman who pensive. had just spoken had let out some secrets respecting the . Vote agreed to. Admiralty. If they went on the Committee might get The next was 23,6541. for the naval establishments some more information.—(A laugh.) Without pretend abroad.—Agreed to. ing to the accuracy of knowledge of the lion. Gentle- Oa the vote of 676,4161. for wages to artificers, &c., men (Mr. Fitzroy), he thought it quite clear that for the employed in the establishment at home, last ten years the vote of the Admiralty establishment Mr. HUME said that the American Government hid had been gradually increasing. In 1841.42 it was five vessels on the stocks, and they had stopped their 121,8441. It was now 138,6251. He did not think the progress. It appeared to him that in our naval archi- Right. Hon. Gentleman had given a satisfactory expla- tecture we were certainly building to waste. England nation why it had crept up—the number of men being now had a great many vessels that never yet had been quite as great, if not greater, in 1842 than now.—(Hear, at sea, and he contended that w ith suc h a s tore of ships hear.) The increase was not confined to the Admiralty the overnment ought to cease building. With 07 verse establishment. It was the same in the dockyards, the gels in course of building it did appear to him that vote for which, in 1842, was 122,0001. It was now we might now very well stop. He regretted to oh nearly 135,000/. There seemed a tendency to get back serve that a great number of vessels belonging to the to that state of things that the Right Hon. Gentleman navy had recently been broken up. Since the month the Member for Ripon set right in 1835-36. He (Mr. of March, 1828, we had built not fewer than 264 Henley) was surprised to find a person like the Hon ships. Within a comparatively short period we had Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) state that it expended for purposes of this kind as much as was impossible to make any reduction of the expense in 5,190,0001., and on dockyards 805,0001., all this involv the details of management without reducing the number ing a great waste of timber and wages, and a pulling of of men, and that, too, in the face of, and immediately ships to pieces for no useful 'purpose; they surely ought following, the statement of the First Lord of the Ad- not to sanction such wasteful proceedings—such waste miralty that there had been a reduction in two years as the breaking up of 297 ships in the course of the last of 1,500,0001. in the general expenses.—(Hear, hear.) 20 years. On these grounds he proposed to reduce the He (Mr. Henley) confesed that when he found e Hon. amount of the vote from 676,416/. to 400,000/. Member for Montrose proposing to strike off nearly a Admiral BERKELEY observed, that though the fourth part of the whole efficient force, and when he did statement respecting those ships made a great display not succeed, throwing the cards up, he was induced to on paper, the ships would not make a very good show at suspect he was not sincere in proposing it with any hope sea, and no nation had vessels of so small a size as Eng of carrying it.—(Hear, hear.) It seemed to him very land. If we brought 50 sail of the line into a general like throwing out a tub to the whale, and saying, " See action he feared that we should very soon have to re what great reductions we propose."—(Hear, hear.) place them. In consequence of our having been at peace Mr. COBDEN thought it would be in the recollection so long there were no doubt many ships that had never of the Committee, that what he had said was not that it been at sea, but that was no reason why they should be wssimposaible to make any reductions, but that it was relied upon. especially if they wore not in a fit state. It impossible to make any material reduction of ex- should be remembered that if they were building ships pense without a reduction of the forges.—(Hear, hear.) they were not launching them; they kept them on the The Hon. Gentleman had said that there had been a re- slips, and it was hardly necessary for him to point out duction of upwards of a million without a reduction of the disadvantage of too much haste in building. If a the force; but the fact was that in 1848 there was a re- ship was run up in a hurry, or upon an emergency, she duction of from 4,000 to 5,000 men. He (Mr. Cobden) very soon rotted, and was found little worth at sea. stated that there might be occasionally disturbing causes, The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume) seemed to such as building steam-boats or the like; but if the Hon. think that a good deal would be saved by giving up Gentleman would go through the Navy, Ordnance, and building for themselves, and getting ships built in mer- Army estimates, for a series of 20 years, he would find chants' yards. In order to show the fallacy of this, his statement correct, that, taking a series of years, the he would refer to two 72-ships of the first-class, number of men was an accurate test of the amount of both still extant. One of these, the Blenheim, built money expended. He thought, too, that upon reflection in a Government yard in 1813, cost 59,2491.; and the the Honourable Gentleman would recall the imputation other, the Benbow, built in a merchants' yard, cost of insincerity which he • had ventured, in a moment 68,070/. The Benbo er was rottenand condemned, while the of forgetfulness, to make against the Hon. Member for Blenheim had bad a screw put into her, and was still a Montrose.—(Hear, hear.) That Hon. Gentleman had, good and efficient ship.—(Hear, hear.) A reference to to his knowledge, often proposed similar motions during other ships would show the same result. As to the num the last ten years; and, although he might not have suc- ber of artificers employed, the returns before the House ceeded in carrying them at the time, it had generally would show that much more work had been done by happened that in the course of a few years what he pro- fewer hands during the last two years than was done be posed was carried into effect.—(Hear, hear.) And he fore that time. He should be sorry to sea building in (Mr. Cobden) would venture to predict that the reduc- our own yards given up. One result of such a step would tion his I-lon. Friend had proposed would be carried out be that it would become absolutely necessary to hire men before long, and probably with the aid of the Hon. Mem- when ships came in for repair, and that at an increase of ber for Oxfordshire.—(Bear, hear.) expense. Mr. HUME rebutted the charge of insincerity, and Sir G. PECHELL said there were great complaints as said that the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire and his to the unnecessary work carried on in the building friends,: who were constantly crying out for a reduction yards, and he was anxious to see a remedy for that evil. of taxation, and yet when they had an opportunity of As a specimen of the mode of doing business in the docks lessening the expenditure did not embrace it, gave a he might refer to the case of the Tremendous. Some pretty strong proof that they were not sincere. —(Hear, four or five years ago she was condemned as rotten, and hear.) And, he would tell the Honourable Gentlemen, was about to be broken up. Having been brought into moreover, that these who voted for large establishments Chatham she was, somehow or other, saved from destruc and yet demanded a reduction of the taxation by which tion; she was then rezed and sent out, and came back those establishments were supported—in other words, under a new name—the Eagle, be believed—being then those who refused to diminish the expenditure before considered a very fine vessel.—(Hear, hear.) reducing the taxation—did not, in his opinion, adopt Mr. PLUMPTRE asked if there had been any re a very honest course.—(Cheers, and hear, bear.) He duction of the wages of artificers? The agriculturists begged to tell those Hon. Gentlemen, also, that when had reduced the wages of their labourers at least one they considered the situation in which they were placed sixth. in consequence of the reduction which had taken place Admiral BERKELEY could only say in reply that in the price of the produce of the soil, they would pro- the wages of artificers were regulated by those given in bably find it their interest before long to join him in re- merchant builders' yards. It was indeed found that duciug the expenditure of the country. ebipwrights and artisans generally were not to be had at Mr. S. CRA WFORD said, that if the Honourable wages so low as formerly.—(Hear, hear.) and Gallant Officer went to a division he would sup- Mr. APGREGOR did not see what necessity there port him. could be for such an amount of naval force as was con- Mr. HENLEY explained that his observations with tended for. Almost every nation on the continent, ex regard to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for cept Prussia, Naples, Denmark, and Bslgium, was in the West Riding had reference to what that Hon. Gen- a state bordering on bankruptcy; and what was the tleman stated two years ago, and not to what was the naval strength of Russia? It was not more than equal number of men in the navy in the year 1848. With to the ships of two of our most eminent shipping respect to the Hon. Member for Montrose, ho (Mr. firms. Instead of expending such large rums on our Henley) begged to say, that he had no intention of naval establishments, he would rather tee them reduced, accusing the Hon. Gentleman of a want of sincerity, and relief given to the public, the agricultural interest What he intended to say was, that the Hon. Gentle- included. by a reduction of taxation. man could have no expectation of carrying his motion. Mr. lIUME cited the report of the Committee up Mr. HUIIE— Indeed I had.—(Cheers and laughter.) stairs, to show that the cost of building ships in the If Hon. Gentlemen had lulfilled their pledges I have no dockyards was 221. per ton, without including one slail doubt I should have succeeded. ling for tie dockyards themselves; while, for vessels Colonel SIBTHORP observed that the Hon. Member built in private yards, the cost was 16'. 14s. 23. per ton. for Lewes (Mr. Fitzroy), having bimseif been a Lord of Mr. COBDEN remembered that when Sir H. Ward the Admiralty, had admitted that a reduction of one lord was excusing the high rate of the estimates in his scheme, was necessary; but he (Colonel Sibthorp) went further, he had told them they would not have so much expense and considered that in these days of economy and Is- for sailing ships in future; and really with seventy tress they might with strict propriety be reduced two. sailing ships of the line, and such a fltet or steamers as Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND said the motion of the we possiese d, to go on building more vessels was mon- Gallant Officer applied only to one service, whereas it strous. He had heard it said that in the next war the ought to be applied to all the different branches of the contest would be wholly carried on by steamers. If sn, service, Navy, Army, and Ordnance. The Hon. Member why go on building more sailing ships ? From the evi • for the West Riding bad referred them back to the year donee taken before the Committee it appeared that while 1838 as a standard, but the propriety of the force to be there were few( r ships of war iu the world now then i n maintained was not a question of chronology but of ex- the 3 ear 1792, ae had double the naval force which we pedieucy. There was no abstract amount of force that possessed at that period could be determined upon. The amount to be kept up Admiral BERKELEY observed, that when they knew depended upon whet were the probabilities of a hostile that other countries were building sine-of-batik ships, force coming against us. Did any gentlemen in sober not as formerly, bat furnished with screw-propellers, sadness believe that there was the same chance of a they ought not, to be unprepared. greater force cowing against us now than in the years Mr. S. HERBERT said , that so far from our having 1835 and 1838? Thre were certain portions of more line-of-battle chips now than in the year 1792, the the estimates which scorned to him to be very facts were the other way; while, with respect to the cost, slightly passed over, but which in his opinion ought to they would find, it' they divided the whole amount by the be explained. He referred to certain details such as oc- number of men, the result would give for the year 1792 curred in page 12. After putting the two assistant-sur- about 3501. per man, while fcr the present year it would veyors at 800/. per annum each, there came these items: give about 3601. per man. As to the cost of sbips building, —Four draughtsmen to the surveyor; one first-classy the question was not whether you would get a vessel from 3501. to 5001.; one second- class, from 250/. to 350/. ; built cheaper in the merchant's yard, but a hether the and two third-class, from 1501 to 250/. Then, and soon vessel so built would be more durable than a vessel built after, there came, first draughtsman 250/.; second ditto, in the dockyard. Experience sho wed that it would ;for 1501.; then, first writer and calculator, 1501.; second they had not the same check relative to the materials in a ditto, 801.; then, assistant-engineer, 500 /.; after that, di - private yard as they bad in a c.c.kln comparing where they o had rector of engineering and architectural works, 1 , 0001 .; their timber l y in g far three years. then, chief assistant to the director of works, draughts - of ships , it should b e remembered vesselsthatre parin built in man to the director of works, and clerk and draughtsman dockyard s were tar g e men-of-war, whilst those built In to the director of works. Now the whole of these offices private y ards were ships,merchante sounded very queer, and concerning which the House were not of course so costly. With reference to the opinion ought to receive some explanation. Then, there was tha t in future wars the contest would be carred on solely another item, not only applicable to the service of the by steamers—whiluthat ti as the belief of some, it was on Admiralty, bat applicable to all the public departments, the other hand, held by equally competent judges that the and that was " Public Buildings and Repairs." H o be- steamers, from the delicacy of their machinery, and the lieved the largest and most extravagant expenditure on facility of damaging their hulls, would be so completely account of these items came under the direction of the hors de combat by the injuries sustained in action that Woods and Forests. These charges also required ex- they would never be able to re-engage. He did not, how planation. ever, mean to say that it was necessary to increas e the Sir E. BARING said, that with regard to the details number of our ships; but he thought it a wise policy to which had been referred to, those of them which bad introduce the use of the screw-propellers in line-of-battle been introduced since 1845 or 1846, he ought not to be ships generally. called upon to explain, except as now holding the office Mr. COBDEN—As the sbcdaw-propellerpsianwtr were whatto h o e h t h h u o i u l g ni h n t g it li a nn ef o n f: of First Lord of the Admiralty. The principal part of supersede the other class of . s ships, tbe increased expense of the establishment had, as he elusive argument against them going had already explained, arisen from the creation of the battle ships. steam navy. With reference to the particular items Mr. HENLEY _asked on what principle they calm• mentioned by the Hon. Member for Surrey in regard to lated their expenses engineering architectural works, and other works, he for machinery? what they allowed for 0 DEN said he thought he could answiehr theirtt had no doubt that the persons appointed to those various , frequently asked it himself. machinery as no contended that The a y thin e g a calculated departments were required to superintend and check the quMestroCn as he had great expense of the works going on in the public coun te d w ith private manufacturers, wh o buildings and the dockyards. For such purposes there competition..Dgo_ r that sort. He, therefore, must be some establishment. There was one °Meer ap- evercYthti'their plant and - 0, price of an article built in a private pointed as assistant to each establishment, and, although t the tar i o g yard ought never to be quoted in or naaeufae they were called hard names, yet they were in effec t the comparison was perfectly fallacious. that H ouse, as clerks; and he did not think that the sums set Gallant Sir G. PECHELL asked when the pu blic woul d be their names were very large. The lion. and eduction gratified with an account of the different sailin g Officer (Colonel Sibthorp) had proposed the was afraid exhibited by the vessels in the ea e • qualities of his fir F. Baring's) own salary. He, nof the Sir F. T. BARING said when rimental squadron? he must leave that entirely to the dem:l:seed, and ceived he had no objection to lay . the report was re- House. The question had been alreadydis et ybe m ight other- Mr. HUME asked if there was it before the House. made any process that relieved him from any diffic—t " therefore, abstain in the process of preserving timber? wise feel on the subject. He should, With regard to Sir F. T. BARING replie d - that the prog ress wa s from any further observations upon it. Admiralty, the Hon. naturally a slow o ne . the number of the Lords of thek . en in supposing that Mr. HENLEY did not doubt that the Hon. Member and Gallant Gentleman was mistaken included the First for the West Rid' there were two lay lords, unles s he lay lord on the board. meat, but he she a i l! (Mr. Cobden) wasn ' ht in his state- Lord. There was only one jun io r be glad to hove it from authority. EG hadreferred to the evi- Mr. HU ME 'll ' for Lewes would send the evidence to the on. en- The Hon. Member (Sir F. Baring) before the Com- tleman.—(Ls h e deuce given by .him was true he was asked wise- ..11g ter., Mr.HENLEY had great respect both for the Hon. mitten on this subject. It in could be made the number Member fur West Riding and the Lion Member for they he thought a reduction the and his answer was that he Montrose, but he should hke to have an answer from constituting the board, . thought would be very unwise to melee any reduction 1 it . . • • theßight lon. Gentleman opposite. I It happened, perhaps owing to his previous CO , S irexnerien BARING had not the retu rn with hi m; but _ F. T. in other offices, that he interfered much more In the bu- 1 , he apprehended the Hon. Gentlemen behind him were siness of civil lords than was usually done by the parson I right. holding the office of First Lord; but, as a general prin. I • the Committee then divided whsn there app eare d_ ciple, ha did not think it advisable to cut down the For the amendment ••• ••• e 8 number of junior lords; but that the House w ou ld act Against it ... ••• ••• • ••• 127 unwisely if they were to adopt the course intimated by Majority ... the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewes. The vote was &greed to. Mr. HUME asked whether it was intended to re- 35,556/. for wages to artificers abroad was also move that portion of the Admiralty Department which agreed to. now occupied rooms at Somerset-house either to the Ad- The tireesnit then resumed the chair, and the CHAIR-. miralty itself or to some cenvenient p lace Wh• te h ll MAN reported progress and obtained leave to sit again. near i a where all the business might be m ore conven i en tly t ra ns- VALUATION (IRELAND). acted? Ho understood tbat it would e very soon be abet' The Valuation (Ireland) Bill eas read a second time luiely necessary to make the removal. 1 pro forma, and ordered to be referred to a Select QM- Sir. r• BAITING said the tom um occupied at i mime, after a few words from Dir e cllauvr, •• • -59