The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

would be e' g °l 1 t to h be Led 1,, quic • d impost °let ell, now' t 1,,0. Ba rone " nds. As s he (I' ntlt Oi ' t, u t Viae , pt th it speech ase the et the countria e not Ili ° to h re snett Alt 1 3 a , i ' tell lie (Lfeirti try 1 4 ' it 11 %of 0 ) at a- for •s look t Secret consitr)..,arb, c ul lo , p in the ranted were r ° ' the Paley" her jib ' r.) ‘ ll re' the , ss ell ) n° gle ct 1844, ws o r.ttl it attec ti(si otl rce of to chit eu ) wer 9 4e er great the w ar, bY.., a tei the e Stiw con use s barf lan e -A ca use thos e )1 . to• ago. ." ` w hole 342, thewo4,oo half 0 , coos da an d f o r the iwiltes 01 , lc° 35°,0 0 :03 ,,tei f the es at, bf cis aw ett rg er is a top idersblY t Bred % i t ' s wee r ' tr.) 1 4 ° 1 , 44 15P IteY oes t ty It? woe' 104 ea s e bs ditl f the) . t ote rs qt• e fo , hear.) _ chef wall. tos o ~ incom e orr e of the he o r ! of t ". di er Ju 04 Lb een trY . v le in" f ool io c otton" r ial „,„te 9 pv *"" o ant,opri ,o.e 0 n ro r raS o T ale 1 ,.- 00 t t _ on et t. 13°j o t 0 0 do to sow o _ Ter , to o ete tb e sse' paov t ecr the . ,, to peet not so;ilf )(li d 40 v/ ,c 1 beg ' " 1 ,ugh h t be g b he: OP e ell g h oe .oc e . ! 01. tr' , fire -1 01J It 1 08 th ° , 0 1, 1 selfo t he fl e it be. bud,()Tv 00be; 41 re esUhef , , the ee' AO A k h i c p ife S igh et t.tP the t 1 0" it ° Peet t° 4 1' 0 t oo ° 1 1) ptle e ss ° e V • Ira c oal n er ,t 4 "veat ro,l j tht:o i k bv tij ti) .D e ts ,io , paw , t het . .,loc , ' the n to " Oa ° ,e. l t ' s 00 0 ' tlie 0 .1 3 , e i ht e 11° as tb t 4 e - ri if ot h oe , t i or, le c ho fi nT oti tt ot i: b e t) pd 5 „,eu ▪ 1 " d or y 0 o f reptr 0 ~ crea se at til'° • 0 , •( , " „h to br Al fij r bo t t [loo se iprOtl e gi rlO O. et o oe , !0 th e il ft 0133 11 11) the m riX t br a hi s 6rw th e o r' l7/ in e b (5 y )01. ° to ° tetl e d e , , l':j Dse a th , " t he e e l -50 6C ' i ol oo ll ‘ le 2, 1 1 igia l ools the the to • elf tic ° e 0 t 0 to , e 9 - ' to ~, t 1 , 0 1 . 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O f r° ioo t re )hi ec la ce . b ° • • r n . 01 1 • , 1 51 0 6 , 0 4 1 1 04 3 4 )I' 4 b: C r it' v '4 l l r yl su gtt ur d stv THE ST'N, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 1845. return for that sneer sent enelin to fnreign countries, tahe from these eaeutries, es from Russia, for instance, hemp, tar, and thnber.—(" ;rear, hear," from the Q,po sition.) It is much the same to do this as to consume the sugar itself. I understand tint, last year, though you had scruple's with regard to the sugar of Bread, your order s in Council admitted the slave-grown produce of other countries." Then, for instance, ou would say to " We admitted sugar from Venezuela, we mew freely admit coffee, cotton, end tobacco, though slnee-grown. That y o u and that we have imported Venezuelian sugar, and indirectly encouraeed slav es e rown sugar, the pro duce of other countrice, but we have scruples which P revent us from consuming slave-grown sugar." What , w ° ll ld the Brazilian Ambassador sey this?-0111Y ' l augh ill your flees. Ile bad rd the Right Iron. .Gentleman say that he did not iiite a nd that this arrange leant of the sugar duties should be perpetual, arid that he would continue the same mode of imposing the duty on that article. The Right Ilonouralde Ba ronet well knew that as long as the duties con tinued in their present condition the question would be cone ~ if onnany discussed in that House, and not introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be brought 'under notice be other Hon. bewilders. With respect to the sacrifice of 1,300,000/, ~ , eally tnink, without going to the extent of say- I T! that sugar, the produee of foreign eosin tries, should admitted en tie same terms 'is that of our own colo nies, that great alterations aunt and a great a Pproaeh t o f ree trade peincip!ea, at the same tame main tablin the revenue. Ile did net see that there was any al!se tor abandoning se lorge a pertion of the revenue. With respect to the plan proposed by the Government. P r ePosing the reductioe of nearly the whole roneent Psurplus revenue, to within 70,0001. of the 300,0001 or °,OOO/. which we possessed, they put, in its stead, the ror„tne-tax, or, limier such circumstances, the ds of the Chancellor of the Ex e lse g a.r, n three year hence We will have no alternative but to continue the i(hcome-tax, or be in a state of national insolvency."— riaateitottr;ohrear.) Ile did not think it fair towards the ratio to propose such (leafier' witheut the decht ther it the Government as to their intention, and who be their opinion that this property and income• tax refineoie of the b est resources w hi c h can b e preposed as tinauerev;Hus t re raw. This would lead the oe fairly at the co nsideration of the case, and they would consider the ti e, either through a Select Ceuenittee or I t t i l a ahstatnittee of' the whole House, whether some o. pb ernigeirpelaet injustice and inequalities of that tax might not i i.ern edied. With regard to commercial refersn, the table and easy manner, .ght lion. Gentleman hesitated to adopt the right ,nut inde ed when it could be shine in an agree but when they knees they would r ave to contend with class interests and with monopo ilistSt and when great opposition was expected.—(Bear, i.. e s a r.) The Government ought well ti consider the sub and whet the true interests of the country were ; " .4 u they should net, at all events, endeavour to itsfgre,- ~ate the monopolies which at present existed. His 'Lew was, that they must indeed continue the income tax for the present, bat that they should not make all the reductions which the Wght Honourable Baro bet prop ose d. , H e thought those red u cti o n s might made on cotton-wool and glass, but with respect to the other t rticles, some of them he thought ought not to b e touched et all ; and as to sugar, and some other articles, he would take quite a different course. Ilia imptesnion was, us he hid already said, th a t protect i on was the bane of ngricui tin e.— l (Hear, hear.) protective dutiieie maintained that opinion as regarded 3. Mr. Huskisson, some years ago, show e d h ow i n j urious it was to silk ; and in Canada the timber duties, which operated so favourably towards °tic colonists there, had been, according to the state- Ment of Mr. Macgregor,- tie ruin of many farmers who IsPeculated largely in timber. At the same lime, he caidmitted that those protective duties should be with atirTatt r g u r p a t d iy ua ; lly and can tiou rather Ilan L 9llll ' ll ' l 3 . but of this he felt confident, that it' they W e i Shed to get rid of the income.tex, they must take ! e ns mode of endeavouring to improve and increase mine r esources of the country.—(Hear, hear.) If Ore markets were opened, and if we admit ted imports, the demand for labeur would at the manufactures wou ld grea tly ex t en d, an d h end of fi ve or six years more, we might entertain ° Pea that the income-t •ex would b e a bolished. The question 'was whether we were to have a perpetual in e--.°lllte'tax and ' a continuance of monopoly and restriction anude exclaimed against both. He felt the impossibility, fr ete er e s ai sting circumstances, of withholding his assent tee propositi on w hi c h th e Ch a i rman h a d i n hi s cen, but w i t h the hope that the income-tax would not eotiverted int o a permanent b ur d en. Th e Ri g h t H on. ti enaan had taken such a course, as to make it neces -3,4 that this tax should be renewed at the end of three th e a nd so on from time to time; but he did hope that openelletsissure of this odious and inquisitorial tax had suff ers , "e.el'es of the people to the disadvantages they arid by sec commercial restrictions and monopolies, !ag e ,. Y s eeking to make trade free, procure great .advan -4604 i tzitio n s e t t w th h e ich le , as t of which would be the abolition of in times of peace, nev• r should be re to,---(Lond cheers.) r ' l t o l'V r tdi was oiseppointed at the conclusion I th e , • . ,nap ort s Peech o f t ,;s Noble Lord, which he thought an aeneh an t concl us i on. _Ztleer, hear, from the Minister:al tili s h e e d ) W l - : l , e i had reviev4'd eve-"v item in the Budget, but i:j34ol.lsolsz.::•lnv was without i a pting an y deljded course. The ,aree Lor d knew well ciamg,h that the ecome-tax for phrase of the lii ht lacfe7 ur ' e b , h l( ' l inbe t h i e s h — ht!le Noble Lord knew . that it meant erpme., e wow , o .lld not hike the Nob:e Lord as his model, t he N ob ", Propose a distinct amendment, and he hoped Pres s 'e I-hrd would vote with him, as he un- ant to ahnt ao lt ,, t i 1 a divi s i on. H e b el i eved the Right Hon, Gen- totie} ; 4 not act as he thought, tire] that he propo,ed ,ithle to n 1 a right dhmetion as he thought he would be 4 , 4l aroe et e l . rrY through both Hotzses. The Right Hon. ja i led i n "e" , and appreciated the principle, but "Y the Ts a PPlying —(llear, hear.) was was deterred °,l Members ( by whom he was surrounded. ah • Would , , ask the Right llon. Baronht, had he alt 6 en ••• • -er ed - e),trhaie for thee expenses of the army, or Year? , 11 7 5 Positi on in that regard from that of last 'nu e• would not ask the Right Hon. Baronet nig itegnlvalent had this country gained by maintain ay it it s h i o lla , t 9ense colonial establishment, but he would lon fur the be matter for grave.and stTious com,idera aquivnf t nis House, whether the country derived an th is -wilt f or . ircold the expenditure incurred by maintaining °llse she rd establishment—( Hear, hear)—and . if the rs."llld determine upon a continuation of this vast itira on hu t this empire, so extensive that " die sun never hould 3 111thS," as the phrase went, why then they A i to Pay for their indulgence in this expensive luxury. said h e le quire for ` the Right Hon. Baronet Ittti o Would require for the expenses of the navy, in star g °t at toe amount he had said the three great • t: at Which the principal naval force was the - :maintained. were China, America, and Pass byes' Coast of Africa. Now, he (Mr. R.) would o Tige r of them and come to the most expensive and brQrai.,,,,(3:1,,51 that a west Africa ; and he would sa, in ‘ L 'ilt 0, 1 f to that past, that all the efforts of the lion. th. .es to • , ri g h t clown the slave trade in that quarter by (abed,(h Of search .project had totall-• and signally Tette, Bear,' would end in disaster to all engaged in it— tti, t he ( 14 , Now, he would come te another branch te e It igh i t . : o l , l he arld assuming the expenses stated by mate e „, r `t . un. Baren e t to be neces ;ray, and his esti -08 th e (Mr. B.) would ask the House what it h u_ls, ouraLie Baronet proposed to do? It was b e sai d P r op Berl to meet the (!eficiency which ti Y the Co "aid be felt up to the year 1847, b a le, et.,lltinuation of the income- tax up to that he( Ne nt other words, that he wanted 5,000,0001. 41 ! lqhtl-rirltoebuck) would say it was incumbent upon h a e liiti ala r'n. Baronet to show the House that this was tll~PreattNse," e xpenditure ; and that the means by which t " to raise this sum was not only better than desvaide, buto , W v l lie , h he (Mr. Roebuck) would presently thi, std. isles n!Att.r than any other plan that could be tieht Eon. Baronet further called upon °fe n a se to r , th s - b altrie ree 1 1 ' , ut or abolish certain taxes upon articles on e . ' i ght If; A ''w he (Mr. Roebuck) would show that o rll ua, reus, oish.n...Baronet's plan of increased taxation was ent t o b"" i ° ) •.lous, and mischievous, and that the taxes 44I vecl. Inreinitted were not those that ought to be re tsxentited t ,fact, the Right Hon. Baronet's plan h_ es e r s,off, aailastwte.P.iy this—;hat with one hand he took The ...an the other he put thaw on.—(Hear, to 'Pet, t‘vv e ;Rt,ght Hon. Baronet said he only wanted, Ili be ~ithiptnilhons, while he levied five ; but taking it bo gh t r s tun, he (Mr. Roebuck) could tell the ~„,ties t, bun Durable Baronet that there was an I ,7at th o l c o o Urabl e , an d , quitable mule of levying it. tot e d. jel o th ine- tax was an ueequal tax could he easily be 4 Power to ought to he taxed hut in proportion qui t eertaine d ° ,_PaY ; and his power to pay cnold only e (de e ,. °Y hie sources of income. It was also ,tict oe , • teat a te • • &h e .00 4 of whose inceme depended upon the of _sau te ah_uprofessional labour should not be taxed to k / 4 tna n nt, though his income be the same, as that th:,enaimpienul,erived his incense from the possession of 1,0 4) cliff`-ren7ate'—(Hear, hear.) Take two men in fe e se in come positions ; suppose one man deriving ofione Year as the result of his professional labours n teo r ; and I/11 th the another with the same h ot , e t echn e sante year from land •, present them both amount joeon..hieo to t= fort an d he (Mr. R.) would affirm that taking . f op f roes wrty years of' age each, he who derived his f where"lthel,land would gt twenty years' purchase to t h in think t 's of _professioind man would - not get one h ere eo u lr,_ n eY•—(Hear, hear.) He did not nail t : fl uc a plainer illustration of the ine htente to Ittlicietne-tax than that. He would now of thi s r e, let him e mode in which this tax was levied, 't eo ay, that he did not think the people 4 8 n l isi topi tTr? s h o n durabl uld be subjected to so annot ing and 01, Loolced eYBtern•—(llear thl°Bt UPou a d :) He was convinced it h part n e ati 4 l 4 ,, a r a felt as inquisitorial, °diens, and , e • — (llear, hear.) He did think that for t Otiffi e i t,t ; as to the amount of his income ought so 1 0 :at the • tined surely it would not be contended a attel s " ebb axis of the people of England were at the beset'.--m et : that this plan could not be deemed t s° ll al s ari d safest hear') I-10 looked upon it as ut, B tea l at "nree; and by it the odious, inquisi teh,t ti.einent used would be avoided.—(Hear.) sa e 0 1 , 1 ,eXt di e 1 ; eltight Hon. Baronet continue this tax, in Jlaxatinnn jinurpose to do ? To take off a por -44014 f he had peertain commercial articles ? In ay • ou r • ,t)lded p l ed diffP""d t(). take the duty off a —44 43,..2 1 e11in g erent articles, while he carefully of evi l •(H ear any of the great interests of the heed s ' staodi t ,', ° eat%) lie had left that giant-tree eebi--(leer hear to . be reinoved by more stalwart t ile to S ee t; d ll a e ,ar) - ---hut he (Mr. Roebuck) hoped he aa, crying evils, fhe e nopen 3 ' soon come, when those • e• evils s ‘ l w h told h t :s r e 4 , v t:e i a n t tZ i s ls e c ° file h a e g; ru e l t r' t t irel and . ' the celimiai • 450 4 , as gi ll Mit ry......(11„ r • th °rlet - Ileed , hear.) The firet of at ' with ir , by the hand of the Right Hon. f at a ' fi r a touch the most dedicate and refined I‘B 3 rlci S i t-rt le artist give it.—(Great :4 4 0 k ai Leu e - er s'tgoter,) i'Vhile e() t i l l i l e d other lie dealt with ;"evshat more deterrnitied.—(ilear', hear.) wag 'see ; tv ,,-eri ets uq Wh at d predominating influence in that language of the Hon. Baronet to them and to the colonial gentlemen ? To all he saki,'' Support me. and I'll support yon." lie Colo niel interests in that House, he said, " Support me on the corn-l4av question, and I'll euppart vets on the sugar duties."—(Crha of " Hear, hear.'') To the aaTieuiturists his arguments were equally p (Hear, hear.) I.'irow, with regard to the reductions that the lion. Baronet had made on the articles of timber and sugar, he (Mr. Roebuck) would deny that any benefit had resulted to the cbuntry by the reduction on the latter, because if the duty had been equalised on sugar rroduced in all parts of the world, the same benefits a mild have followed, while the duty would not have been lessened. Now, he would like to see how the Hon. Baronet would explain upon what principle he had let in the Venezuela slave-grown sugar, or the enormous amount of slave-grown cotton.—(Hear, hear.) Could it be possible that these productions, being the result of slave labour, did not touch his feelings in favour of the slaves in those places as well as 5.n other parts of the world?—(Hear.) The Mak Hon. Baronet had lost 1:3,0001. by his changes in the fiscal regulations as regarded sugar, part of which went into the pock is of the West India planters and a large portion was altogether thiown away. And why thrown away ? Because it was non-productive. And so with timber. Canadian timber was not enly dearer but greatly worse in quality. and upon it there was a loss of 900,0001. He (Mr. Roebuck) knew this subject well, and if the Right lion. Baronet and other gentlen en would go thrtmeh the calculations they might see it now, as no doubt they would at sonic later eerfod feel hear.) Canada p-oluced its own titubier we.ll no• if for the mists of ships, but timber clle from the tteliie at a cheaper rate and of a finer quality for all the Janna - rases of building. But what would be the result ? 900,000!. would be lost to the Exchequer and yet the people weld have no better timber, They were about to impose upon the country an income• tax, and what was their justification ? Why this. That they were about to favour theipountry with all alteration of the fiscal duties. Be (Mr. Roebuck) said that those alterations were fallacious in principle, bad in calculation, and led to no desirable result. He had already reviewed what the Right Hon. Baronet called the necessity for these changes. and they had heard the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that they were neces s.ary in order to avert national bankruptcy. But why remit the duties on sugar and timber, and preserve to the country this inquisitorial tax ? lie left upon the Plight Honourable Baronet the onus of proving his (Mr. Roebuck's) statements to be incorrect. Be fore adverting to another part of the question he could not help remarking that there was a very great deal of art in the scheme propounded by the Right Hon. Baronet. There was a something to mollify Manchester and Glasgow, and there was an attempt to soothe the Noble Lord (Lord Ilowick) by the alteration upon dual.—(Laughter.) So far from agreeing with the Noble Lord, that no exports should be taxed, that might be the newe,t principle ; however, he (Mr. Roe buck) thought that the exports of the country were this which ought to be the first to be taxed, inasmuch as' their customers, not themselves, consumed them. Ile considered that the Right lion. Baronet had completely failed to make out his ease. He hail not established one reason for his changes. He (Mr. Roebuck) would say nothing of the anetion alutti, but he certainly thought that imposts pressiiie more severely upon the industry of the country might have been removed. The Rieht Hon. Baronet had, he belie%ed, remitted that tax because of the enormous expense of collecting it. One word more about the remission of taxation. 'The Right Hon. Baronet had remitted the duty on glass. This would certainly benefit the rich, by lowering the cost of their chandeliers ; but the windows of the poor would remain untouched by it. The present step was in the right direction, and he thanked the Right Hon. Baronet for it. It was an earnest of a future time, when the monstrous monopalies of the country would be levelled to the ground. Let him not be mistaken in the resolution he was about to propose. He proposed to leave out of the resolution the words " professions, trades, and offices," not for the purpose of exempting them altogether, but of subjecting them to a regular system of taxation, such as he had described. Sir GEO. GREY said that in her Majesty's speech, at the beginning of this session, it was recommended to Parliament to consider whether it might not be expedient to continue for a limited period the tax on property, and to consider also whether those taxes which pressed more heavily upon the energies and the industry of the country ghoul I not be removed. The Right Hon. Baronet, in strict accordance with the recommen dation in that speech, had laid before the House his pro posed alterations. In the speech which he had addressed to the House on Friday last, after reviewing the state of the country, and his views with regard to the reduc tion of taxation, he stated his confident expectation that, in making a proposition for the continuance of the in come• tax for a period of three years, he should be after wards enabled to dispense with the tax altogether. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down had informed the House, with a gesture of disdain and contempt, which he granted would he well merited if the result should bear him out, that the tax would not be limited bat p. inn iieot. He (Sir George Grey) trusted that the Right Honourable Baronet, or one of his cod: agees, would give the House the grounds for the confident expectation advanced that the tax would not be renewed, and for their desire that that House would confirm, in consequence, the Right Hon. Baronet's resolution. He (Sir George Grey) had opposed the tax three years ago, but he was prepared "en to allow the imposition of the tax for a further term, p _ i 2evid .. edthat he had a certainty of its being again se at the expiry of that time whether it left to the line •outinued or not. He could see no should be further t . ien that Government . should thing more reasonable e, with a view to the propose its continuance at this 1,..17 removal of other taxes which pressed taa7e 11 .' 11 Y "P" the industry of the country; but lookin: to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, he, for one, co:.' i d not discover the grounds for his confident anticipation that the tax would at an after period be removed. — (Hear, hear, from Mr. Roebuck.) He did not mean to go through the statement of the Right llon. Baronet in detail, but he could not, like him, entertain the solitary expectation that, at the end of three years, the revenue would be in that state to enable him to dispense with the income-tax, and he believed that, if the proposition of the Right Hon. Bar,met were at-ceded to by the House, it would be a gratuitous sacrifice of a large amount of property without giving the country any equivalent for the sacrifice. Ile might assume that the Right Hon. Baronet was sincere in his desire to exclude from the markets of this country the sugar of those court tries which encourage slave labour. But he asked, in the event of such an increase in the consumption of that article to pay the loss in duty, from whence the supply was to come? Were their colonies to supply 34,000 hogsheads, which the Right Hon. Baronet took credit fir to cover his deficit of 3,0001. ? Ile (Sir G. Grey) doubted whether the colonies could supply so much. He thought that the revenue would be sacrificed, and that the price would not be lowered lid. to the consumer, as had been promised by the Right Hon. Baronet, and the result would be to benefit the pockets of the gentlemen who supported the monopoly.—(Hear.) Ile d that the Right Hoe. Baronet had no confident expectation of excluding from the markets the sugar from the slave growing countries, and, therefore, let them not hypo critically assume that they could act on that principle, hut let them at once sweep away the distinctions that had been hitherto preserved, and equalise the duties up , at them.—(Hear, hear.) Any other mode of dealing Vlith the question would but have the effect of making even more injurious monopolies than those that now existed, ard he should, therefore, support the resolution of the Hon. Member for Manchester, that no settlement of the question could be 'considered but such as involved an equalisation of all the duties on that article. With r: gird to the amendment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, he (Sir G. Grey) trusted, for one, that the Right Hon. Baronet might supply some ground for his belief that he should be able to remove the tax at, the end of three years. He (Sir G. Grey) did not wish to see experiments or modifications tried upon it, for his own opinion was that the more obnoxious the tax the more likely they were to get rid of it. The CHANCELL' )R of the EXCHEQUER said that differing materially in opinion as to the results of these alterations from the different gentlemen who had spoken, there were at least some points in which there apps-tired a great uniformity of opinion between them. The Neble Lord did not object to a continuance of the income-tax ; the Hon. Gentleman did not.object to it ; the lion. and Learned Member did not object to it, only lie wished to introduce modifications into it. He agreed with the Right Hee. Baronet who had last spoken, that tht se in'e would only render the measure meet, ixions and altogether inoperative. Upon this point les thought they were generally agreed, that in the course of the year it would be necessary to increase the expenditure of the country by the amount of 1,200,000/ e in order to keep up those establishments which could not be neglected without the greatest detri ment and danger to the country.—(Hear, hear.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman-who spoke last asked upon what ground his Right Hon. Friend anticipated that, at the period for which he had called for the continuance of the income-tax, ho would he able to repeal it ?—(Hear, hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would tell him that the Ministers grounded that anti cipation upon the experience of the past ; and that if the establishments of the country were kept upon the same footing as last year, they could, with perfect safety, abandon the income-tax, at present.—(Hear, hear.) That tax was imposed in 1842. It was then imposed to meet the expenditure, which exceeded the revenue, and pro duced a deficiency. It was now proposed to continue it for the purpose of meeting an increased expenditure, in the necessity of which all seemed to agree, and at the same time to relieve the country of burdens which pressed upon industry and commerce. It must be remem bered that when this income - tax was first submitted to the House, it was for the put pose of covering a large deficiency which then existed, and to release from burden a num ber of articles which were at that time subject to bur dens, by which commerce and industry were restricted. It was then supposed that by removing that taxation, a spring would be given to the industry of the people—so that after an interval, which might last five years, but which, as his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) at the time stated would probably be no more than three—the industry and commerce of the country would recover, and the income-tax might be dispensed with. And what was the situation of the revenue at the two periods, when the tax was imposed, and at the expiration of the three years ? He would refer for an answer to the ac counts of the revenue in the three years. In the ac counts of the year ending the 10th of October, 1842, the ordinary revenue of the country, that arising from Customs, Excise, the Assessed Taxes, the Post- -office, and the Land-tax, amounted, as near as possible, to forty-seven millions of money. The measure sub mitted to Parliament in that year withdrew from the ordinary revenue an amount of taxation above 140,0001. of annual income.—(Hear, hear.) But, on the 10th of October, 1844, the accounts show that those same taxes, which had been reduced by the amount of 140,000/, produced, not as in 1842, nearly forty-seven millions but 47,074,0004—(heer, hear.) Therefore he thought that en inereese of revenue would be produced by a judicious reduetion of the taxation pressing upon in dustry. The stimulus given to industry, when the re , duetion was made with justice, and upon those which • should be best selected, would be suet that in the next three years a result similar to that produced in the Jest • three years might be expected. It was on that antici pation the Mini Seers grounded the measure, which, he trusted, the House would now sanction. He confidently expected such an improvement in commerce and manufactures, and consequently such an improvement in the revenue, as would at :he end of three years enable the House to say whether any further change should take place or not. He had been surprised to hear the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) say that there was no certainty that the reduc tion of taxation proposed would produce an increase of revenue, because there were some articles upon which reduction had taken place, and there had been no in crease.—(Hear.) With all deference to the Noble Lord, he tbomeht he was not correct in his facts, and that if he were correct in them, he was incorrect in his deductions from them. It a as true (as we understood), that in the case of wool —( Hear, (rear, from the leading Oppesi tion bench)--the increase had been quite commensurate with the reduction. The cost of the article lied been diminished. There had been a larger number of consumers, and those persons were enabled, ey the r, duction, to expend more in the consumption of other artieles.--(llear, hear.) But it was a very nar row view of the reduction and repsal of taxes, when the Noble Lord would have them look only to the effect of - an increase in the particular tax reduced. If that doc trine were admitted, they s` - ,ould repeal no tax ; for every tax repealed was, to that extent, a loss to the revenue. But, speaking from practical experience, every reduction or repeal of taxation pres.her upon in dustry was attended with an improvement of the re venue.—(Hear.) He confidently affirmed that past ex perience justified their anticipations in the present instance. —(Hear.) Looking back to an antecedent period— (Lord J Russell, " Lot d Althorpn—yes; at that period a reduction of taxes which had substeted for a long term of years was effected. In the year immediately preced ing that in which his friends (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) and himself went out of office, and the Noble Lord opposite and his friends succeeded them in office, revery larger. peal of taxes was made, and in the two years following taxes to the amount of 5,700,0004 were reduced or repealed. That reduction apparently brought the revenue to be expected down to 45 millions from 50 millions and some odd hundred thousands ; but in the year that immediately followed there was an increase upon the remeining taxes of 3,500,0001., bringing the revenue up to upwards of 48,000,000/. ; and in the year 1835 the revenue was : nearly the- same as before the reduction took place.—(Hear, hear.) That was a proof or what might be expected from the judi cious repeal of taxes, and, taken with the result ofthe re ductions in 1842, justified the present expectations of the Government.—(Hear.) He could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Devotiport, that if Pro vidence blessed the country with seasons of average pro ductiveness, they would be in a condition to leave it in the hands ofthe House in three years to say whether they would abandon or continue the income-tax. The question now before the House was the same as in 1842; namely, whether they would continue the income-tax to meet an increased expenditure, and to enable them to afford great national relief.—(Hear.) It was necessary to look to the nature of most of our present taxes, and to the circum stances and time in which they were imposed. They were impased in periods of war, when it was not neces sary to regard the effect which they might have in re stricting our commerce with foreign nations ; and their sole object was to raise from our own subjects the money necessary for the national defence. Those taxes had been continued in a long peel , d of peace to maintain the nationel expenditure ; and it was not surprising that they should now be found but little adapted to the altered circumstances of the country in respect to foreign trade and domestic industry. That being the case, although he admitted that the income-tax was direct and unpalatable, he thought the House should consider whether it was not wise to continue it fur a time longer, for the purpose of relieving the country from those taxes which interfered with trade and national industry.—(hear, hear.) The Hon. Gen tleman who move-I the amendment wished to relieve a class from the burden of the income-tax ; but he did not state the matter as if he so much wished an exemption for that class, as to obtain an exemption under the ap pearance of more equal taxation.—(!lear.) What was the Honourable Member's objection? He (Mr. Roebuck) said that the real and funded pro perty ought to bear the burden, and that property which was not realised, ought to be exertipt. That was the argument which was offered when the tax was first imposed. Bat Mr. Pitt's answer was, that it was wrong to arrange taxation so as to cause capital to be diverted from one line of investment into another, to ensure more profit. If you said that land and funded property should be subject to the tax, which other capital was not sub ject to, you gave an encouragement to the selling of land and funds, and the investment of it in trade and cum meree.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would ask where was the injustice of continuing this tax, which was for the ob ject of a direct and actual relief of the public generally, from the pressure of taxes to which they were now subject?—and those were taxes which did not press more upon the man of fixed pro perty than upon the professional man. The Hon. Gen tleman himself would be as much benefited by the relief as the capitalist or landlord. He would, equally with the public in general, be benefited by the reduction of the sugar duties and the repeal of those open glass. But was the arrangement possible to secure that every man should make a full return of his income from every source? The Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) objected that the tax was inquisitorial—would it be less so if the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Roe '‘rick) were adopted, or would the public feel it less odious :ban the lion. Gentleman said it was, if it were extended to every man?—(Hear, hear.) It was now extended to a very limited portion of the public. But the Hon. Gentleman would hare every man make the return upon oath. The Right lion. Member for Do vonport told the House, that he would not consent to that. He (the Chancellor ef the Exchequer) concnrred in the Right Hon. Gentleman's decided opposition to that expedient.—(Hear, hear.) For years past the Le gislature had been endeavouring to abolish oaths of that nature. As for instance in the Customs and the Excise, which had been found to be wholly ineffectual. Let the lion. Gentleman suppose what the effect of his proposition would be. When the tax was first imposed, it applied (as lie, Mr. Roebuck, proposed) to every per son, and the product was 15,000,000 It now was so . touch limited, that it produced only 5,000,0001. The flon. Gentleman had said, what Reif quite inap plicable to the case, that the test of insurance which was applied to clerks in public offices would serve as a test for the incomes of other persons, He could assure the Hoe. Gentleman that no such test was applicable. [Mr. Roebuck said he had not said any such thing.] To come now to what had been said by the Noble Lord on the subject of the auction duty. It was to him matter of regret that the Hon. Gentleman the last Chancellor of the Exchequer was not in his place, for if that Right Hon. Gentleman were at the Noble Lord's elbow, he would tell him that the objections to that duty were strong and pressing, and that he would have recom mended its repeal when he held office, if he could have suggested a means of meeting the deficiency. He thought that the Noble Lord, with all his disposition to find fault with measures proposed by the present Government, would fled it hard to convince that Right Honourable Getatieman, the Member fur Portsmouth, that they were wrong in submitting the auction-duty for repeal. He did not think either that the Noble Lord would bo dis posed to coalesce with the lion. Member for Lincoln, in calling for a repeal of the duty upon insurance, in pre ference to those taxes now - proposed for repeal. He would not now enter into topics which would bring on a lengthened discussion of details. Shortly before the time when he would have to go into the whole subject of the present measure, the sugar question would be brought under the discussion of the House by a motion of which an lion. Member had given notice. On this subject the Noble Lord opposite was altogether opposed to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) The Noble Lord would equalise the duties, which, in his (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer's) opinion, would encourage slavery. It was, in his opinion (as we understood), quite another question in respect to cotton, to encourage the cultivation of which was not so great an encou ragement to the slave trade as the cultivation of sugar. But, as he said, he should reserve those points connected with sugar until the time should arrive when, the subject being fully before them, they would be enabled to discuss it in all its details. It was sufficient to know that, generally speaking, the House was not disposed to object to the resolution placed in the Hon. Chairman's hands. It was enough for the House to decide whether con tinuing the property-tax • for a limited period was a desirable measure. The Noble Lord had told them that the tax was liable to Induce fraud to enable parties to avoid making proper returns, but the Noble Lord forgot to mention those taxes which were not liable to fraud. Would the Noble Lord tell him whether there had been as much fraud induced by the income-tax as the Excise ? Whether it had been so often evaded as the duties of Excise? Whether there was a greater temptation in the one case to make false statements, with a view to being relieved from a small portion of taxation ? Whether there was not an equal, or more temptation to evade a duty which produced a large and more beneficial result to the party committing the fraud ?—(Hear.) Set the fraud on the one side and the fraud on the other, and he could not attri bute to this one particular tax that degree of liability to fraud which might attach to another. Fraud operated more or less upon every tax that was imposed upon the country.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had told them that in repealing the duty on glass they had abolished the duty on the chandeliers of the rich, but the windows of the poor were left without tiny re lief whatsoever.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman must have spoken upon the subject without having first made himself acquainted with its details, or he would have known the duty .on chandelier glass was infinitely greater than the duty on crown glass.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, therefore, could not have given the subject due consideration.— (Hear, hear.) There not appearing to be ary disposition to maintain any other subject than the one mentioned in the resolution, he thought he should best consult the convenience of the House, and promote the advantage of fair discussion, by reserving any observations he might be inclined to make till the period when the sugar and other customs' duties should come befbre the House.—(Hear.) Mr. C. WOOD expected the Right Iron. Gentleman who last spoke would have given some details to show the grounds on which he hoped that, during the course of the next three years, those sources of revenue which were left would so far increase as to enable them to take off the income-tax.—(hear, hear.) He expected to hear something more than a mere general assertion, that in souse cases the reduction of the duty on an article had been followed by an increase on another. It was a principle to which no one in that House could object. But the whole question turned upon w hat the Right Hon. Gentleman hal stated, that a judicious selection had been made in the articles to he reduced. Was the selection so judicious as to warrant an ex pectation that the revenue would rise t p such an extent us to justify the expectation that the Government would be able to get rid of this impost at the end of three years. Now, he thought, in the absence of any attempts to show this, either bY the Right lion. Baronet on Friday night, or by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that night, which articles were likely to produce this increase, it was only left for him to meet an assertion by a c..unter- assertion. He said, then, there was no reason able ground for expecting such a rise in the revenue.= (Hear, hear.) Ile thought that the experience of tee last few years showed that the hope .expressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman was not quite so well-founded as the Right Hon. Gentleman was pleased to say it was. When the income-tax was proposed three years ago, trade was in a reduced state, and the tax was not likely to realise an extraordinary large sum. Since ;then, however, things had changed, profits had considerably increased, and hence the returns to the • revenu would be nearly deuble what was termerly realised. But he believed the income- tax was acquiesced in upon the assurance repeatedly made in that House by the Melte lion. Barone', that it was in tended to decrease a deficiency in the public Exchequer, and so soon as the deficiency was made up, the impost was to be diseentinued. Now, they saw from this that the tai was founded upon a tae of things which existed no longer, and, although anoth( r assurance was held out that it was to be continued for three years only, there was every possibility of its being made ultimately permanent. Ile thought Hon. Gentle men had said, however,- that it was desirable the tax should he kept under their control, and that at the ex piration of three years they would have the power to reconsider it, but he confessed this was all he had heard to induce him to believe that the tax would be of a tem porary, instead of a permanent character. At the time the tax was first imposed there was a deficiency in the revenue of two millions and a half ; and he was pre pared to say that this . was not a sufficient defi ciency to justify the imposition of a tax of so oppressive a character. But as •he had said before, the House and the country, relying on the temporary nature of the tax;consented to allow its oppo nents to remain in a minority, when the question was first brought forward. Had there not been such a pro mise held out of its non-continuance he very much doubted whether it would have met with the slightest approbation. It was stated when it was first brought forward that the tax pressed more on the rich than the artisan. This was not the case, for the experience of the last three years had proved that the income tax was a burden on the employment of the population of the country. There was another objection to the tax. It was confined to England. Why should an Irish gentleman, possessing an income of 5001. a-year, be relieved from paying the income-tax. There was no reason why the rich man in Ireland should not contribute his share of the tax as well as the rick man in England. In this coun try there was some want of employment, but in Ireland the want was painfully great. The Right Hots. Baronet, how ever, exempted the rich Irish gentleman from the tax, and im posed upon him another burden, which induced him to spend his money in other parts of the world. Now, in no country was it so desirable that capital. should be introduced as it was in Ireland, where there was a large demand for employ ment, and, to meet this demand, a very considerable capital would be required. The rich gentleman was exempted from ,the income-tax, and in its stead was a burden which pressed more or lesson the great body of the people. They. were told that in the reductions made on various articles of consumption they would derive a benefit equal to an equivalent for the income-tax. Now, they had had some experielce upon this of late, but he would defy any gentleman to get up and tell him that the country had derived any very material benefit from the former reductions made by the Right Hon. Baronet. The Government had taken credit to themselves for relieving the country from certain duties, but it struck him very forcibly that his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) was entitled to participate in this triumph ; for it would be remembered that his Noble Friend voted with him when he made a motion, last year, for re ducing the duty on wool, while Hen. Gentlemen on the other side of the House swelled the majority which defeated his tention. It was not a little remarkable that, on refer ring to the list of articles on which there had been a falling off in the duty, it would be found that there was no material in crease in the consumption. It was still more remarkable that in the articles upon which no change whatever had been made, a very considerable increase was observable in the re turns of the imparts. In the import duties delivered, he found that with the exception of coffee no increase whatever had taken place in the articles, the duty on which had been reduced by the last tariff. In tin there was an increase, and also in coffee, but in four other articles reduced there was no increase whatever—that was in camomile, boots and shoes, corks, and damasks. There was one article, however, in which there had been considerable increase. He found there were 600 tons of copper ore raised, he believed, by slave labour.—(Loud cl.eers from the Opposition benches.) When they came to the other great articles of consumption—those articles with which the Right Hon. Baronet did not deal—they found a large and considerable increase. There was a great increase in the im portation of oranges, India sugar, molasses, tea, currants:, in which no reduction had been made in the duties. in raisins, an article of immense consumption, there had been a large in crease, notwithstanding the heavy duty imposed on them. The same increase was visible in cigars, sponges, ginger, and other articles. It would be observable that this increase was not attributable to the reduction of the duty, but on account of the great prosperity of the country.—(Great cheering from the Ministerial benches.) Ah, but this prosperity was not in con sequence of the small reduction of duty, but it was caused by circumstances. They had had, for instance, cheap corn, An increase had been made in the imports to China ; and really, altogether, this prosperity was attributable to causes not at all under the control of the Government. The impost was proposed to be continued, to enable the Government to make experiments in taxation ; quite a different reason to that assigned three years ago, and it was necessary that they should now form their conclusions upon past experience. Now, this past experience of the last year or two, made it evident that the reductions proposed by the Government were not of a nature to make an important alte ration in the revenue of the country. It was necessary that they shots]." satisfy themselves on this point, before they sanc tioned the continuance of this tax, as they would find it would become a permanency, without their being able to help them selves. He was aware that some Honourable Gentlemen behind him were favourable to its continuance, but he believed the majority of the House held a contrary opinion. Now, he wished to go over the Right Honourable Baro net's statement. In the first place, in reference to the ex penditure. It amounted, last year, to 48,700,0001.; and it was proposed this year to increase it one million. He con curred in the necessity of this increase,for the additional fortifi cation of our ports would require a large expenditure. The navy, as far as he was able to judge, would require augmentation; and, under these circumstances, he could see no reason why the increase should not take place. The Right Hon. Baronet stated the receipts, from ordinary sources, to be 47,900,0'01., and from the income-tax, 9,700,0001., making a total of 57,600,0001. The total expenditure for next year would be 49,700,000/., leavin g a surplus of 3,400,0001., and with that sum the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to deal. He entirely concurred in the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, that they ought to leave the consideration of the China money out of the question allogether.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet, therefore, very properly omitted it. The Right Hon. Gentleman, with a surplus of 3,400,0001., proposed a reduction of duties to the amount of 3,310,0001., thus leaving himself a surplus of 90,000/. Now, the items upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed an alteration might. be divided into two classes. Upon one class he reduced the whole of the duty ; and, so far as that was concerned, there was a total loss. This class included glass, the smaller articles in the tariff, goal, and the auction duty. With respect to the latter duty, he h a d n ot heard any strong argument in favour of it s re d uct i on . He regretted that his Right Hon. Friend the l a t e Ch ance llor of the Exchequer was not in his place, for if h e were h e believed that it would be found that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had rather gratuitously assumed that he would approve of the selection of the auction duty as a fit item for reduction. He should not say anything in opposifon to the proposal with respect to coals, unless it were that he could not reconcile the wisdom of taking off the duty new, with the reasons alleged for imposing it two years ago. Upon these articles there would be a diminution of revenue amounting to two millions, and the Right Hon. Gentleman had not given them the least notion as to how he expected that that deficiency would be made up. He had as sumed an Increase of 500,000/. upon the Excise, but he (Mr. C. Wood) did not see the smallest ground for such an assump tion. Again, what right had they to expect a great mcrease in the receipts from the Customs? hoped that the existing prosperity would continue and even extent. He would not now argue the who le question of th e sugar duties—he would not repeat the arguments against the but there was no probability that it would do s •s to a sufficient distinction made between slave-grown and free-grown sugar, but would deal with the question solely as one of revenue. He did not, however, understand the 70,000 tons of British clayed sugar which the Right Hon. Baronet expected to receive. Great difference of opinion had been expressed by great au thorities in reference to that subject. If the 70,000 tons were East India sugar, then it might be urged that the duty on West and East India sugar having, been equalised, and on the faith of that equalisation capital having been sent out to India, large manufactories established, and preparations msde for car rying on an extensive trade with this country, the parties who were engaged in such speculations had a right to complain of the conduct of the Government.— ( Hear hear.) On the other hand, if it were true that the East India Sugar would come in, net as white clayed sugar, hut as something else, then he an tici p at ed that the benefit to th e re ( Hear, h ear. ) It was quite clear venue was scattered to the win ds. They were driv en t o th e necessity either of admitting that h ardships were inflicted on the East India speculators, or that there w ou ld b e a loss of revenue that if the proposition of the Government were carried ttohatthaet amount t t out, it would no t be l ess than 100 per cent. The R i g ht H on Gentleman stated that the highest quantity hithert o im p need for home consumption was 207,000 tons, and it wo uld be found that 171 pounds per of the l6 d o iff ,oo cre ol n . c was about 40 per cent . ; and he believed —e of duty upon British colonial sugar head was the greatest consumption which had ever been known of late years in this country. Taking the population at 18,030,000, 210,000 tons would appear to be the maximum amount consumed. The two statements very nearly agreed. Now the Right Hon. Gentleman calculated on an increase of 43,000 tons beyond that amount ; and if that. increase were not realised, the Right Hon. Gentleman would lose one fifth of the income which remained from that source. He an ticipated that the increase was one which could not possibly be obtained within the year. He contended, then, that neither from the Excise nor from the Customs was there the slightest reason to expect such an increase in the revenue as would enable Parliament to take off the income-tax at the end of three years. He had not the slightest doubt that if the sugar duties were dealt with upon different principles, the income derived from that source might be much increased. They had not as yet derived the full benefit which might be secured from that source. He believed that if the Customs' duties generally were dealt with in a proper manner, the income-tax might be taken off at the expiration of three years; but if that were not the case, there was no hope of obtaining such a result, and Hon. Gentlemen opposite might rely upon it that they would have to pay the income-tax all their lives. The result of the present sYste'n was to obtain only the minimum of the revenue. If the House ef Com mons did not interfere to prevent the continuance of this system of indirect taxation, there was no alternative but direct taxation. No other means would exist of paying the public creditor except the direct payment of the income-tax. It would be impossible without such a resource to make the revenue equal to the expenditure of the country. It was im possible to deal with the income-tax without combining with it other questions ; and he wished Hon. Gentlemen to be warned in time as to the consequences of the system which Hon. Gentlemen had adopted and were now pursuing. Let the - question be fully and fairly discussed whether or not the income-tax was to be considered the permanent source of re- venue. Let that question be discussed on its own grounds, and let them not be led, step by step, into a position from which it would be utterly impossible for them to re cede. He believed that the course adopted wculd leave the financial affairs of this country in an im proper state. One of the causes of attacks made upon the late Government ,arose out of the posi tion of the revenue. Numbers were interested in the public. credit and locked with a jealou, eye to the state of the revenue, and when the present Government came into lower they pro posed, in order to remedy the evil. the imposition of the in come-tax. The revenue was sufficient—the evil was carried, and a surplus bad been obtained. But would they wish it to he said if, when they had submitted to this burden of three years, he were again starting on the same course, when the Hon. Gen tleman proposed a system which would realise at best a sur plus of only 90,000/. Yet such he believed would be the result of the financial course of the Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman calculated upon 15,000 tons of foreign clayed sugar, producing 42,0001., 5 000 tons of foreign muscovado, producing 116.000/., and 2.3,00) tons of British clayed pro ducing 375,000/. This made up the 43,000 tons upon which he calculated, and which would increase the consumption far beyond any hing ever known in this country. But upon these 13,000 tons depended no lets than 911,01 K)!., of which amount, if the increased consumption did not take place, the revenue would of course be deficient. lie would suppose that the in tease would be half what had been calculated ; still there would be a deficiency of half-a-mil , lion. But even supposing the whole were I eal,sed, there was one saurce of expenditure ohich ought not to be overlooked. Reports had been made by Government Commissioners recom mending the construction of hat Inure of refuge on the south eastern coast, and it was es' imated that four millions would be necessary to complete the work. Hu contended that no delay ought to take place in commencing those works. It was Incum bent on the Government to begin within the year, anti half-a mi'lion at least would be required fur that purpose. lie considered that the income-tax being continued for a limited period was a less evil than imposing new taxes. He did not think that voting for the income-tax on this ground was acting at all inconsistently with opinions which he had be fore expressed. He eoeld only say, with regard to the amend ment of the Hon. Member for Bath, that if the income-tax were intended to be a permanent measure, the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman might be worth consideration, but as the tax was to be for a limited prod only, he did not think it was necessary to make any modification in it. C lone) CONOLLY said, that judging from the limited period during which this tax had been in operation he thought it would be g ood and round policy to continu e it . —( L ou d laughter.) I the first place the income-tax relieved the country from the deficit which the Hon. Member for Halifax had warned the Government from falling into again, and relieved them from many evils which they had experienced. The Hon. Member for Halifax appeared very muds to bewail the possibility of having so small a surplus as a million and a half. He (Colonel Conolly) certainly preferred this to a deficit.—( Hear, bear.) The income-tax had been the means of restoring the stability and the credit of the country. It had enabled the Minister to reduce the interest on the public debt. That wus indisputable. He thought that in the position in which he - was placed lid' was called upon to state why he thought the income-tax ought to be continued.—( Laughter.) Ile considered that it was a benefit to the country from whence he came.—(Loud laughter.) It was a benefit to that country, for it had relieved the great distress of the landed interest there.—( Roars of laughter.) It was a positive and distinct relief, and, up to the present hour, it had progressed in abating the distresses of that country. That was distinctly in consequence of the restoration of public credit. There were a great number of landed proprietors in Ireland, friends of his own, who had been distinctly enabled to relieve their estates.— ( The Hon. Gentleman was here greeted with a roar of laugh ter Irons all parts of the House, which completely drowned the remainder of the sentence.) Why, did Honourable Gen tlemen consider that no advantage ?—( Continued laughter. ) All these advantages had been produced by the very measure which it was now by Hon. Gentlemen opposite sought to con demn. lion. Gentlemen might laugh, but he could assure them this was the case. The landed proprietors of Ireland could now give employment to the labouring poor, for those landed proprietors could now raise money at four per vent.__ (Great laughter)—whereas formerly they were compelled to pay six per cent.—(Continued laughter.) The income-tax, therefore, had relieved them from their embarrassments.— (The House was here again thrown into convulsions of laugh ter.) He considered th a t th e measure was a great blessing, and was calculated to invigorate industry and promote com merce. Railways had now sprung up, together with other schemes of enterpri s e, "f o r capitalists, ' said the Hon. Gen. tteman, "have now a probability of certain remuneration for their money." (This somewhat novel expression of the Honourable and Gallant Officer drew forth a burst of laughter, which was continued for some time, and renewed again and again at intervals.) It was very easy for Hon. Members to laugh, but he thought their derision would cease when they were compelled to listen.—( Hear, hear, and more laughter.) What had been done during the present session showed that there was a• desire in this country to conciliate Ireland, and to do everything which was calcu lated to increase the prosperity of that country—( Hear, hear, fram Sir Robert Peel)—and he believed it would go far to cement the union between the two countries. For these rea sons he would vote for the proposition of the Right Hon. Gen tleman at the head c f the Government. Mr. G. BANK ES was not surprised at the light-heartedness which had been exhibited by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, seeing that the cause of it was the prosperity of Ireland. He trusted that that prosperity would go on increasing, and that ere long a sense of justice in the people of that country would induce them to insist upon bearing , equally with thi s country , t h e burden of the in come -t ax ; for he could assure his Hon. Friend that there were now in various parts of England depressions as serious, and distresses as alarming, as those which had been de scribed by his Hon. Friend as formerlyexisting in the sister island. The income-tax was imposed at a time when the 'agricultu. ral interest was in a more flourishing condition. The Noble Lord, the Member for London, and the Hon. and Learned Member alluded to, made' reference to that interest. They did not let it pass without - remark, though his Right Hoe. Friend at the head of the Government, and the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not in any way allude to it. —(Great laughter. ) And he perceived this with regret, because that such distress existed had been con veyed to the Government in plain terms, and they left it to the Government to apply such remedy as was in their power. Tine Hoe. and Learned Member for Bath spoke of the pre sonderating power of the agricultural interest, though he thought the Hon. and Learned gentleman bad not chosen the happiest time for such an allusion.--( Laughter.) But, if such was the fact that they had such influence, permit him to say he was unable to find any trace of it. Why, in the present Budget, everything was given to the commercial and manufacturing interest, and nothing to the agricultural.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member very properly observed, that the greatest attention was manifested and paid to Manchester and Glasgow, in the important reductions which had been made, which he (Mr. Bankes) as an agriculturist (and he believed he spoke the feelings of the agricultural interest) saw with pleasure.— (Hear, hear.) There was no jealousy of the manufacturing interest felt by the agriculturists. And, allow him to say, it was net only since the reductions which had been made that a preponderating influence had been manifested towards the mercantile and commercial interest, but in the increase of ex penditure the same objects were in view. —( Hear, hear.) For why was the navy estimate to be increased by upwards of a million? Why, because in China and the Pacific there were found new outlets and new opportnnities for extending throughout the world that power they happily possessed. It was to protect their commerce that this million was to be contributed and the agriculturists paid their share of the burden cheerfully. —(Cheers.) Was their army to be re duced ? No. Was that because the army was wanted in the agrionitural districts? In the county he represented he did not believe there was a single soldier. The army was re quired for the colonies. But did the agricultural interest com plain of being called to maintain it?—(Hear, hear.) By no means. If then it was said they were a powerful and prepon derating influence, it could not at least be said they were a sel fish one.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for London, who alluded to them, did not hold out to them that en couragement which they might wish to receive in case they did not desire to continue their preponderance for the present Government. The Noble Lord dealt with them more ten derlyt of triumph than hedidreph t with the silkotherinterests,r atdeHe and said he a lluded that aliudedwith something before the monopoly was removed that trade was subject to great alternations of prosperity and depression, but at last the question was settled, but the whole of the silk trade in London were ruined, and if he did not mistake it was while the Noble Lord was in power, that there was a ball at which the Queen was requested to attend, for the purpose of relieving the distress of the Spitalfields' weavers. The silk trade con sisted of a small number of persons, and they were easily over come, but that was not the case with the agricultural interest, and the ruin of which would include 7-9ths of the people of this country.—(oh, oh.) That was his belief. The case of the silk weavers therefore was no encouragement to the agricul turists. It was admitted the other night, by the Hon. Member for Durham, that if they had a free trade ; corn would be some thing dearer than it was at present; for, in the Channel Islands, where the trade was free, it was dearer than it was here, so that they had that advantage from the protection which was complained of. With regard to the present vote, as it seemed to be agreed to on both sides of the House, he had no choice left but to agree to it, though, looking at the stateof the agricultural Interest, he should be sorry to see a permanent in come-tax.—( Hear. ) Mr. WAR RU itToN said he agreed with the Right Hon. Member for Halifax that if the duties on articles of consump tion were reduced, there would not b 3 any necessity for the income-tax.--( Hear, hear.) He also agreed with him as to the impolicy of a differential duty on sugar in favour of the West Indies. They were now going to increase that diffe rential duty, because every one knew that almost the whole quantity of sugar from the West Indies came in the state of Muscovado sugar, but that which came from the East Indies was clayed sugar, so that that was a practical increase of the differential duty of 103. by 2s. 4d. But he would not have risen on this occasion but for the allusion which had been made to what had fallen from him a few nights ago, by the Noble Lord and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Now, all he would say on the present occasion was, that he believed the prosperity of the country would be greatly increased by a permanent system of taxation—( Hear, hear)—because a far greater proportion of the tax, when directly levied, would come into the public revenue than when it was levied indi rectly.—( Hear, hear.) And he thought he saw some symp toms of an approach to such,a system, as contradistinguished from the indirect system, during the present debate ; and if the former were adopted, he thought it would be wholly to the advantage of the country, and that the great mass of arti sans and small traders would he particularly benefited by it But then he came to the consideration of in what manner that system of direct taxation should be carried on ? In condemn ing the system of direct taxation, as it was now carried on, ho entirely agreed with the Noble Lord in characterising it as very unwise.—( Hear, hear.) The present plan of taxation, as regarded income and property, was to lay on the tax for a short period ; that was snaking a short annuity and a long one subject to the' same degree of taxation. Now, what could be more unjust than that? It was condemnatory of the tax to lay it on for a short period. Now he would shortly refer to the substitute that was proposed by the Hon. Member for Bath. He did not care whether the income was levied for professional toil or manufacturing toil ; but what he would say was this, that the system of taxation was unequal when they levied the same amount of per tentage on income gained by professional toil, as on income derived from laud. Now the substitute the Honourable and Learned Member for Bath proposed was this—he would take it that they were about to lay an income-tax on for one year, said the Hon. Member for Bath. On the man who had property in land or the funds, he would lay on a certain per centage heavier than on the man who derived his income frem manufacturing or _. profes sional toil. Why did he draw these distinctions? had Wh an W hy i t be for these reasons, that the person in for Bath in terest in land for the one year, had a reversionar y impossible, the plan therefore of the ll that be drew from was utterly impracticable, and the conclusion its expiration. Now, to tax a perse o n n for a short period was that was, that to lay on an incom e-t a x must levy it with justice, unjust. If they had it at all, t h e y they made it permanent, and to and they could not do so without mow any disposition. If he do that the House did not se ne e viho reversionin t e res t after was of the proposition of the Hon. ,ffwe l oo ki ng u s l l d o su p port I lld p :pt p oh o ts r ahi t yteieo l tcaontbdoui appearedtt hositnes thought there was any chance of the agricultural interest, it was not too much to suppose that they should expect that something he saw no chance of that, t h o e a sh v o a u t t e l h d h a o e t p A r l e e A s t m e r n . b e t s r p r: p r e e A ß s iYtLieoAnci thoughtcoming in the Budget in their behalf, especially when the large sur plus tha Government had in hand was considered. He re !fretted very much that it appeared not to be in the power of the Government to relax some portion of that taxation that would relieve them. He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would not be mistakan in supposing that his measures would do good, not_ only for the agricultural but the manufacturing live . rests ; he thought, however, from what ho had scan, that the greatest disappointment was felt with respect to the course pursued by the I2ight Hon. Baronet on Fr,cl:sy list. The House was now called upon to renew the inaome• tax for three years, and according to the statements of the Right lion. Gentleman he hoped that at the expiration of that period he would be enabled to give it up. Ho ( Mr. l'altner) trusted that the Right Honourable Baronet's hopes would be realised, and that he would find himself correct in that respect. The income-tax as a permanent one would be an intolerable evil. When the discussion of the income-tax took place in 184'), he recollected what he sa id on t h at occas i on, and that was, that these who derived their income from the funds or real pro perty, had a greater stake in the country than those who de rived it from professions or manufactures, and that therefore they ought to pay a greater rate of duty. He c msidercd the income•tax, as it was now levied, most unjust. He thought, however, if the proposition of the Honourable Member for Bath were carried into operation, it would have the effect of excluding those who obtained their in comes from professions or inanu'aetures from the operation of the tax altogether, and that was never intended. Ile thought that this must be the case, for, unless he was mis taken, if these words were left out of the resolution, the par ties asses ed under schedule D would be exempted from the operation of the tax. lie agreed, however, that those parties ought to be charged in a ratio somewhat different from the holders of real property. lie could not vote for a proposition which would exclude them from the assessment of the tax altogether. Mr. M. GIBSON said, from what had fallen from the Hon. Member who last sat down, and from the lion. Member for Dorsetshire, in reference to the alleged neglect of the agri cultural interest, he must say, in the language of the Right lion. Secretary of St a t e for the Home Department, with re • spect to Ireland, that " conces , ion had been carried to its utmost limits."—(" Hear," and laughter.) It would be highly satisfactory if the Hon. Gentleman and his friends would point out the particular grievances of which they complained. The universal remark which he hail heard made was, that the agri cultural interest enjoyed great exemptions from taxation, and that in distributing the national burdens, particular care had been taken to throw the largest amount of them on the com mercial and manufacturing community, and leaving, in many important items of taxation, the agricultural interest untouched. But he would not dwell on this subject, as the question imme diately before them was the income-tax. lie felt a little diffi culty as to the course he should take on the proposition of the Honourable Member for Bath. Nor could he go with the Honourable Member for Kendal, though he agreed with him that when a man got rid of his income he got rid of his income-tax also.—( Laughter.) There could be no doubt of that, and that he supposed was what Ls Hon. Friend meant. —( Laughter.) If a man could be supposed to be immortal, and to have enjoyed his income all his life, he would also have paid the income-tax in perpetuity. But the more fortunate man who got lid of his income in three or four years, would not have that cause of complaint, as he would only have paid his income-tax for three or four years. Bat he (Mr. M. Gib son) could not look on the matter in this light. It appeared to him that there was a wide difference between an income made by professional and mercantile exertions and real property. But still he was not disposed to agree that the trading commu nity ought to be exempt from paying the income tax. He did nut think that offices and trades ought not to pay some amount of income-tax on their re turns; but the most reasonable course would be, if sonic plan could be devised to effect it, to capitalise income. Ile believed that had been done in former times. He was informed by his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose that it was done in the propeity-tax of 1692, and he referred to the statute-book to find if there could be any po sibility of such an enactment, and he found his Hon. Friend was correct. He found there that, in trade and manufactures, the capital employed was valued. Here the duty was computed on the interest which would be received on such capital. Thus, if a man's goods, or mill, or machinery, was valued at 1001., the interest of the capital was computed at five per cent., and the person paid on an income of 51. Now, in 1692, the Government was in , great want of money, and unwilling to remit any poi on of taxation. At that time there was actually a tax on births marriages and deaths, on widowers and bachelors ; yet even then it was not thought necessary to put the same tax on in come as was imposed on real property. Now, if that was done before, why could it not be done again ? He thought it would be a very reasonable proposition to move for a Select Com mittee to inquire whether some amount, and, if any, what amount ought to be placed on trades, professions, gnd offices, and also to inquire whether some less vexatious and inquisi torial mode of laying it on professions might not be suggested ? He thought that met the whole case. Disapproving as he did of imposing the same amount on income as on property, he should support the proposition of the Hon. Member fur Ilath, but he should have preferred letting the present resolution pass, and when the Bill was in Committee, the Hon. and Learned Member might have takers the opportunity of pro laising by way of amendment some practical plan like that he had alluded to. Mr. MILES said he had not on a former occasion objected to the income-tax, because he felt that unless it was imposed there could not possibly be any reduction of taxation that could benefit the country ; nor could any great reduction i.e made unless it was kept on for some time longer. If the income tax gave additional vigour to the industry of the country, and at the same time enabled them to relieve acme of the direct burdens on agriculture, he believed it would be a blessing— (Laughter) —aye, a perfect blessing—( Great laughter)—if it was imposed only for a limited time.—(Laughter.) If it was proposed to make it permanent, he for one would say, No ! He did think that the Right Honourable Baronet had introduced this measure with the b .st intentions, but he must say he had not considered all the in terests connected with the question. He found commerce and manufactures both flourishing, at least as compared with the tato or three years past; but lie found agriculture in a de pressed state, and yet there was no attempt indirectly to re lieve agriculture at all. lie was not one of those to stand up in that House and ask the Right Hon. Baronet to take off the malt- tax, for, in the first place, his surplus would not allow it ; and, in the next place, he did not wish that the agriculturists should monopolise the whole of the reduction that could be made. But when the Right Hon. Baronet was asking for the continuance of a tax which amounted to 3,400,0001., he did think that agriculture should be considered as well as manufactures and commerce. He thought, considering the party who immediately supported the Right Hon. Baronet, and the small remission which bad been made in direct taxa tion, a great benefit might hare been conferred on agriculture, and on the nation in general, by diminishing the county rates. Great good would also be done by placing them under a better system of management. Agriculture was greatly depressed, and agriculture was not relieved ; but he must say this, that he gave credit to the Right Hon. Baronet for such remissions of taxation as those on raw materials, on cotton, and on glass. But he did think that the Right Hon. Baronet would also have turned an attentive ear to the remonstrances addressed to him, he hoped in a proper form and a proper spirit—not by Noble Lords or Members of that House, but by farmers, know ing and practically exercising the trade of agriculture. When they stated their depression to him it could not be but all the past feelings of the Right Honourable Baronet must be touched.—(Laughter.) They have nothing but their representations, and the voices of their own Members in that House, and he had hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would have been touched by their statements. But he was sorry to say that their hopes had been dashed from them. Though they contributed to the property-tax no less than '2,400,000L, out of an amount of 4,900,0901., yet no one single tax had been touched from which they derived any immediate benefit. The whole remission was given only to manufactures and commerce; by that agriculture would no doubt be indirectly benefited, for he had always maintained that no interest could be benefited without producing an effect on all. But the only time the Right Honourable Baronet the other night mentioned the agri cultural interest was when he announced the remission of the auction duty. But they were not asking him, as landlords, for any reduction of taxation, as he believed it was the land lords alone who would benefit by this remission, because when agricultural produce was sold there was no tax upon it. It was for the tenants he spoke; and from the letters he had received, he could assure the Right Hon. Baronet there was a general gloom in the counties around the metropolis, who of course had had an opportunity of reading his powerful speech the other night. He could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman that the greatest despair prevailed in these counties. They had looked to him t protect their rights and now their distresses were passed over without vouchsafing a single farthing of relief after imposing on them a tax of upwards of 2,000,0i0i. All he could say was that agreeing as he generally did with much that was said on both sides of the House—(Great laughter)—he yet certainly could not sit down with that kind of spirit which would tamely submit to everything a Minister chose to dictate.—( Hear, hear.) Even if he stood alone he would at a future period give the House and those county mem bers who had been returned by their consti tuents for asserting certain principles which he hoped and trusted they would carry out—he would give them at a future period the opportunity of stating whether in this great remission of taxation the agricultural interest was or was not to be benefited. Before he sat down he merely wished to suggest to the Right Hen. Baronet that in imposing the in come-tax again he should give to the tenant-farmer a right of appeal. At present they were taxed on half the amount of their rent, but had no appeal against the charge, whether they made any profit or not. Ho therefore wished them to have that right of appeal allowed them. Agreeing on the whole with the principle of a property-tax, he would sit down, hoping that this measure would be greatly and generally beneficial, yet at the same time expressing his belief that in bringing it forward the agricultural interest had been perfectly overlooked. Mr. V. SMITH thought the agricultural Members ought to take a straightforward and decided course, and should not follow at the heels of any Minister. He believed the agricultural condition was one of great distress, but they should have voted for his Hon. Friend when he brought forward a motion for in quiring into the burdens which peculiarly affected agri culture. Ile admitted that there were some bur dens which peculiarly affected agriculture, in the shape of local taxation, but Hon. Members opposite were all silent regarding them, except the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Yet a most valuable paper had lain for two years on the table of that House, descriptive of the extent to which local taxation was carried on. He would not give to agriculturists the same answer as they usually received when they complained of their burdens,—to cultivate the land better, for he thought they had very great reason to reply that they could not cultivate the land without capital. We were now about to saddle ourselves with a per- ' manent property-tax, and it would be idle in him to rail against it, fur under the circumstances of the case he feared it was but too necessary. The lion. Member fur Keadal..had given reasons for the continuation of the income - tax , which he con fessed were to him wholly unintelligible. The lion. Member for Donegal had given reasons for its cont i nuance, have to pa it.— which were y perfectly intelligible, i: because he would an d peace of Ireland ( Hear, hear.) had been adverted to T-i In thepros pe r i ty speec h from the throne, and had been since adverted to in language of triumph by lion. Memb ers opposi te ; a nd if such were the case, he saw no reason whyhethile i n come-tax should not be extended to Ireland.--(Mr• here gave marks of dissent which caused general laughterS in the House .) — He thought the Ho n . Baronet had, with his usual adroitness, barely alluded to the 4511 articles in the tariff upon which duties were re d uce d or abolished ; bu t the House should recollect, that f rom t h ese 450 articles the revenue lost 320,000/.— ( Hear, hear.) He w as ' of opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have, some days prior to his statement, laid upon the table of the House a list of those articles which he intended to affect by the proposed measure. He could not refrain from saying, that considering how many of the constituencies of Hon. Members were affected by this diminution or abolition of duty, the House had been rath-r taken by surprise.—(Bear, hear.) At this late hour of the niOt he would not trouble the House with any further observations. Sir R. PEEL assured the Right Hon. Gentleman that to morrow or next day he would lay on the table of the House papers which would specify the whole of the articles now included in the tariff, and on which it was proposed to remove the duty. He had stated generally that a remission of duty would take place in the raw materials of manufacture. Surely the Right lion. Gentleman did not expect him to go through the whole 450 articles? He thought by so doing he would have wearied the House, and the mention of many of the articles would rather hare pi orokid laughter. He was sorry to hear from his Hon. Friend that he had considered him ireiensilsle to the distress which prevailed in many parts of the country. The Hon. Member for Sorncisetshire had stated, and stated truly, that he (Sir Robert Peel) had been touched at the dis tresses mentioned by members of the agricu'tural Ceputation which waited upon him.—( Laughter. ) Yes, he had been touched with the statement. made by members ofehe deputa tion. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Palmer) said he di I not express any sympathy with the sufferings of the agriculturists. But, on a previous evening, he had stated must explicitly his belief that in some parts of the country severe agricultural distress prevailed. But he thought this distress was in a great degree local, and in a great degree attributable to the influence of the seasons. In some parts of England, during the early part of last summer, the drought was very great, and the hay and turnip crepe had suffered to a very great extent, but yet he could not say that this distress was universal, fur in the north of England, in Scotland, and in Ireland, the harvest was rather abundant. He wished it was in his power to provide any effectual remedy for the distress which prevailed ; but the House must know it was very difficult to provide a remedy for local depression, particularly when that depression was the result of unfavourable seasons. Ile had heard it stated that he had no sympathy with the sufferings of the agricultural classes. Nov, he begged to re mind his lion. and Learned Friend that in his address to that House at the opening of the session, he did express his belief that very serious distress did prevail amongst the agricultural classes.—( Hear, hear. ) But that distress last. year was par tial, and principally owing to a great drought. The hay har vest in some districts had been a failure, but that was confined to certain districts. It had not been felt in Scotland or in Ireland. From the former Collo* try there had been no complaints of the harvest ; and in the latter the crops had been very abundant. But if the crops had failed in those countries, he doubted if he could be called on to provide a remedy against su c h an occurrence.-- ( Hear, hear. ) He sincerely wi s h e d lie could suggest some mode of relief for local distresses in agricultural districts.-- ( Hear, hear.) I3ut it would be very difficult, if not impossible to do so. One suggestion had been offered to him as a remedy —namely, that the malt-tax should be repealed. Now he did believe there were certain taxes that did press heavily upon. certain agricultural localities ; but with regard to the malt-tax, he would say, he did not think it was such a one as that the repeal of it would afford the relief suggested.—( Hear, hear.) lie (Sir R. Peel) was opposed to the repeal of this tax in the year 1835 for the same reason, namely, that such a step would not give general relief to the agricultural c asses.—(Hear.) It would perhaps have given relief to one class of pe.sons, namely, the brewers —(Laughter)—but general relief it certainly would not give. —( Hear, hear.) Nothing could be mo.e able than the manner in which his Hon. and Learned Friend had made his eiase went ; but he (Sir R. Peel) did not think his 11n. Friend bad succeeded in showing that the malt-tax was hue which bore with peculiar pressure upon the agricultural districts.—( Hear.) Neither could his Hon. friend say that the income-tax pressed heavily upon the agriculturists, for this reason, that it was not paid by any one engaged in agriculture who had a less income than 3001. a-year.—( Hear, hear.) But again -he would say that he admitted that local taxes did press heavily upon certain portions of the community ; but it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for the Government to interfere with it-4 Hear. ) He would say that he did think her Majesty's Government had acted judiciously in defraying the expenses of criminal pro secutions in some instances out of the Consolidated Fund; but it would be very imprudent if they inter fered with those taxes which were levied for the purpOse of making and repairing roads an l bridges.—( Hear, hear.) For it was very important that such taxes should be under the control and matiagernent of the people of these localities who had to pay them. _(Hear.) This, however, he would say, that it was his firm conviction, that if that House supported rtleiseelneeasthu r e es ee h a e im ha tl d uit p y roptseesd, the ul t i mate re li ef that would at large would be found to be more really beneficial than if he had repealed all local taxes, and had them out of the Consolidated Fund. —(Hear, ',sear, and cheers.) If his Hon. Friend was of opinion that it would be expedient to repeal the malt-tax, he certainly must be embued with a sympathy for a peculiar class.—( Laughter.) But the repeal altogether of the duty on glass and on raw cotton would be found, eventually, to be most beneficial to the agricultural classes.—( hear.) Indeed he could not conceive a class who would be more benefited by those two measures than the agricultural labourers. When the heavy duty should be removed from that material made of cotton-wool, which was generally worn by the labouring agri culturists, they would then be enabled to purchase their clothes at a low rate, and surely that would be a boon. Then with respect to glass, surely when the duty upon an article so necessary to the comfort of all classes should be reduced from Is. to 3d. or 4d., was it not clear that the landlord, the tenant, the peasant, and the labourer would derive benefit from it ? (Hear, hear.) With respect to the proposed reduction in the auction duties, he begged that the house would not take a htsty view of that, until they had the proposition fully before them.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord opposite had taunted hint, in respect to this tax, with repealing a tax which nobody had objected to. But he hoped the Noble Lord would read the opinions of Sir Henry Parnell and the Chairman of the Stamps and Taxes Department, upon this subject. He (Sir R. Peel) would move this evening for certain returns in reference to the fees paid at certain auction sales, and then the Noble Lord would see if it would nut be a material benefit to that branch of commerce to haveit proceed in future unclogged by any tax.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord quarrelled with him (Sir H. Peel), because the army and navy estimates were so high, but he hoped to be able to satisfy the House and the Noble Lord that those esti mates were not larger than the present necessities of those branches of the public service demanded.—(Hear.) However, upon this subject he would not dwell, as it would be very ungrateful in him to quarrel with one whose support he understood he was to have in his proposal for a renewal of the income-tax for a further limit ; and, therefore, he would say no more u i on that subject.—(Laughter.) When the Noble Lord had first said he should oppose that measure, he ( Sir R. Peel) should confess he was most agreeably surpi ised at hear ing the Noble Lord say, La a subsequent period, that lie would vote for the continuance of it— (Laughter)—and he begged to assure the Noble Lord that, great as was his surprise at hearing this announcement, it was not greater than the plea sure he now felt at having the honour of his Lordship's support —( Renewed laughter)--and let him add the hope that nothing he hail said that evening would have the effect of shaking the Noble Lord's resolution.—(Continued laughrer.) Perhaps, after all, if the Noble Lord and his colleagues were sitting upon those benches—( Pointing behind him amid much laughter)_ his Lordship would find that, no.matter from what source de rived, the addition of the 5,200,000/. of the income-tax a very comfortable thing—(Loud laughter)—and would . gravely declare that that tax was for the public benefit, and ought to be continued for a further limit.—(Loud laughter.) Certainly they might have a discussion in that Committee, when the Hon. Member for Kendal brought forward his mo tion—(Laughter)—when the Hon. Member for Bath brought forward his motion—(Laughter)—or when his Hon. Friend the Member for Somerset brought forward his motion.—( Con tinned laughter.) lie certainly thought that the House had sects enough from the preliminary debate to come to a right conclusion upon the subject. Then, with respect to funded property, it was said that it was a great injustice to tax it, as the country had entered into an engagement with regard to it that it should not Ise taxed ; and when Lord Sidroouth attempted to introduce such a measure in 1803, Mr. Pitt got up and said that it would be a violation of the public faith to allow funds raised on a distinct engagement that they should be free from all claims, to be subject in the same manner as other property to the burdens of the country. He found it necessary, therefore, to draw a distinction between permanent and temporary in comes and the property entitled to claim exemption. But the opening up of that subject would induce a discussion which he was anxious then to avoid. But he could not resist saying that in the mode of testing the exemption in such a case, the circumstances attending the scrutiny would be just as stringent and as inquisitorial as any that had taken place under the operation of schedule D. 'I hey would have to go into examinations for the purpose of determining the nature of the property ow which the duties were to be levied, and as he had already said, a new inquisitorial tribunal would be established, much more onerous than that which had been complained of ; and he would just ask the house if, from the very nature of the tax, it could be otherwise ? He very much doubted, in the case of such taxes as glass and cotton, whether the sum remitted could be said to be abstracted from the per manent interest of the country, because the remission of such taxes gave an impulse to the creative powers of their trades and manufactures. In respect to wines and articles of luxury, they might escape that tax by not consuming the articles ; but its respect to the articles reduced—let them say cotton and glass—they were articles of manufacture of which they were a component part, and by the increase of labour its which, the workman would be enabled to buy absolutely necessary artteles, as wearing apparel, cheaper than before, thus amply competes sating for the general pressure of the income-tax on the com munity. What was it that he would propose afterwards? Why. that a person having 5,0001. a year should contribute about 1481. towards the maintenance of the credit of the country, and he would ask them that day, not merely to increase the expenditure, but to make an experiment, and if that should not succeed—if the country should not derive any immediate benefit from it, they might afterwards reconsider their present determination. He (Sir R. Peel) was asked by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonian ( S ir G. Grey), if he could give any assurance that the i come-tt!z would expire in three years? He answered to that, as he did on the other night, that he calculated that the taxes removed would increase the consumption of other articles; but he was free to say then, :in experiments of that kind, three years was rather a limited period—rather a short experiment, and he would own that he would rather himself have extended it to five years. He had good ground for enter taining a rational expectation that at the end of three years he would be at liberty to discontinue the income-tax. He told the Right Hon. Gentleman that his ground was this. The t epolsu lation of the country was greatly on the increase, d a be nd h greater. con sequent consumption of articles paying duty e w r oL e l They had The population of the country was on thnedinh they application a vast amount of surplus capital, i a a n n du i s u t e iy reas th ed eir de m m a a n n u d fa io c- r of tu r t e h s a w t ocuardi increase; a y s a e r: o t u b s ay b ra n c shouldhe increase the consump tions would find that the trade of last of country. They ia o r f e looked at declared value the dvanced, if they labour, and the demand for labour would year had greatly a of 1844 as compared f with e t x h p e o d r e t c s lar wa e s d v 4 a 4 1; 12 0 , f 0 1; , - ) t3 1. . ; !I n t 1 1 84 14 3 4 the declared value o the the d ec l are d value was 5 0 , 650,0001 . , being an increase ove r th e declared a surplus value of 18 43 of 5,838,000 /. in the course of the y ear . V capital applied to the inter na l i mprovement o Ni' fthecountry, he thought it a rational prospect that at the end of the three years there would be such an increase of revenue that the House might be safely asked not to continue the income-tax for a longer period. On the Ist of April, 1848, the income-taa would expire, but the duration of the income-tax, subject to the half-year's tax of 1845, would extead over four years. He foresee c not h m imight hate remain ven tisnmliBg4h9t onceccuersstaoaryrdelrhetheHosuuser peolunsld might be of opinion that he should not be held to an engages ment, that at the end of the specified time the tax should at. cessarily cease. He wouhl only say that he had reason to think there would then be a fair opportunity to consider whether o r not i t would be for the public advantage that the tax should then cease, or that it should be continued for the purpose of affording a revenue. He certainly made the experiment with confidence, and whatever happened, he was sure the house would be determined to maintain the public credit. The Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for Halifax thought that it was possible the sugar duties would not answer the expectations formed of them. They might not recover se rapidly se might be wished ; but he would remember that for the two years to come. Then there was an additional revenue of 600,000/. for which he did not take credit. Suppose a falling off in the sugar duties in the course of next year ; the rest of that sum would, of course, be available to set off against any .diminution in the sugar duties. These were grounds whi.4l!" it was impossible to expose to any accurate caleulation quite admitted, with the Noble Lord,' that his experimenta But as to the might be attended with some loss of money. considered that political economy of the Noble Lord,rito be. condemned which reductions of the tariff were nece e7 aly nue, he must say, when because they occasioned _is is lossof r tiataii e on of it, that, on such a the Noble Lond made h subject, it was a mos t extraordinary declaration coming as the Noble Lord was, to the credit from a person , entitled had found concurrently o f - being a fsoruscier. If they