The Sun. — London, England, 1845-05-31 00:00:00

n ages to convey that quantity. He considered it would not be wtrth his while as a iime.burner to send his lime by the rail. Has v hitn self nine vesse l s engaged in the trade. 'here were fifty or sixty essels altogethe r employed in the lime trade at Knottingley, in !lndng canal boats and river vessels. The vessels engaged in the yeasting trade were about 300. lithe proposed Wakefield, Pontefract, arid Goole Railway were formed it would cause a serious injury to j he owners o f t h ose vessels—he meant those engaged in the corn. a o d e. It w ou l d not decrease the number of vessels employed in lime trade, as lime.burners would still prefer the canal. The Corn would also, in his opinion, be still sent by water conveyance. By the CHAIRMAN —Had stated ' that the rail would decrease the Mm, of vessels. Did not think that this decrease would take Placeiti consequence of the rail being selected in preference to the W el for the co nveyance of corn. Thought that the proposed !ykefield an.l Goole line would injure Pontefract. The farmer ou'd then bring his corn to the Wakefield or Leeds market—the arraer would. be a gainer by it. _eCrosrexamined by Mr. WILKINS—The people of Knottingley in favour of the proposed Wakefield and Goole line. (A pe tition I - as here handed to witness.) Knew many of the people n etfined that petition. It was signed by the principal men of d? ee lth and substance in Knottingley. It was signed, however, in e q u ence of au apprehension that another line would be laid w a which would not take Knottingley in its course ; it . was a ;110,Ice of two evils, and they preferred to sign that petition in fa °: ," the Wakefield and Goole line. Was part owner of eleven 1 : l e• Heard the evidence of Mr. Moorehouse eve knew that he Ve ry lar ge in the trade. me-burner, and had a great many sels engaged The Cuarau sx h ere interfered, and said that the evidence of ea ` g e r rvarit n ess had so f ar gone to show the superior i ty of water apA ge to conveyan ce b y ra il , an d therefore affected the Brayton ter _ Goole su ggested line as much as the proposed Wakefield, Pon- Inand Goole li ne. essrs. PRIKERING and KNOWLES said that their object was to ' ! that Wakefield was not the key of the position of the traffic neeeeeountry, but they would call direct evidence to prove the ; 4 4 for the formation of the Brayton and Goole line. as 4leXander Sherrill was then examined by Mr. PICKERING— kne manager of th e goo d s d epot on t h e L ee d s an d S e lb y R a i lway. I, her w e the trade generally of the West Riding and about Leeds. *fie great Wm considerabl e traffic between Leeds and Hull. There • accommodation of that traffic to null remat want of docks. The dock and wharfage dues were very Ott a an d there would be no chance of a reduction in these with.- 44 thCrVing Port. Goole would afford ample accommodation t hed e l4we• The w r ol-merchants complain of the delay of f sty of their woo l a t Leeds a ft er it s arr i va l a t H u ll. Some icia ° Or or five days elapse from the arrival of the wool and its eanai"*„.. T here was a great deal of traffic on the Ayr and Calder tab Abe i mport trade for 1844 has been— Pi ax °' German wool S heet s ..... Dit to ° , f English wool, to Leeds 6,212 tales'oto Bradford 11,380 Itat‘, ,!,w°ol, froman Dieman's Land Tons tk ur fromL don v ir gen on • 81 0, trot goods, by sailing vessels T he ' steam -vessels to Hull t t " , ,, -. l, au e . e l'ort trade was 4,750 tons of linen from Leeds 1 ,570 tons from Bradford to Hull ; 1,410 tons ' r ettiti° , lo, l to London. There were 13,000 sheep sent annually t u h ere and the stations on the line, and 910 head of cattle. If X14, -. a direct line between Leeds and Goole, a great traffic "we t o Goole. The amount of the export and import trade Th t o e W e Places ment,oned was about 32 543 , tons . treat meaefield and Goole line would benefit Leeds, but not to annual so th e lteht as the Brayton and Goole line. colt Cirs tamsN—The reason that the traffic would go to heerded.int° Hull was the superior accommodation which it af- f seal 4t Present the merchants were entirely at the mercy o h 2 17 a l , n ,,g agents at Hull. -m t vts. S EYuotta Was manager of the Leeds and Selby line, Tea . 1 - ; hot on , that account an interested witness. i „lir. ;: 1 4- ' e ss was cress-examined at great length by Mr. WILKINS. sib Matthews dni as on—Lived at Stockton-on. Tees. Was a -r for the Durham County Coal Company. This Company WetatunnellY 20 0,000 tons of coal. 140,000 tons of this quantity Wes eureePortation ; 40,000 tons went to York, the half of which "n 4 tha bstnn ed along the line between the collieries and ork, b e ad G oo ' ° per half at York. The effect of the proposed Brayton - kle eoealline would, in his opinion, considerably extend this T 4 li ft se ' the cross- examination of this witness, lal*ithilresiftm&N asked Mr. Knowles what order he intended to pur ereply Pect to the additional evidence he would bring forward ? %hi e th t e ° which Mr. Knowles said that he had been obliged to 4 , e :rati on _ _e o orse h e h ad first laid down, in consequence of ob Pro, e which fell from the Chairman, and he had ' called witnesses a ,.eYt indePendently, the necessity for the formation of the 'Pee th e -'nd G oole line. H e h a d now regre tt e d th a t h e did no t Th e Casa wit h a general statement. Leootini,44awAN said th a t i t was t h e w i s h o f th e C omm itt ee th a t that "°°, chain o f evidence should be given on all points, , 1 4. ( "e should b e concluded before another was commenced. -"neillie, 00ello pon,l°WLEis c oncurred in the observations of the Chairman, U bittielta- Andrews, who concurred in the evidence of the last N at i,. The coal trade would begreatly increased if there was ."43101nat -, York fo r t h e conveyance of coals. The proposed Jose ph Goole line would in his opinion effect this. .qtee. cle P h Fletche r was next examined, and gave similar evi toenee4e the cro ss-examination of this witness was about to e a _ h e (t ° h —.°l.a N said, th a t as i t only wanted five minutes to three iogst tine appointed y es t er d ay f or t h e conc l us i on o f t h e pro . c o 2 a Y) lie thou g ht i t better not to enter into it. unni t tee then adjourned till twelve o'clock on Monday. - GROUP F. g em, - Commit met again this day at twelve o'clock, the Right e ta s _ bat° In the chair. at/It aturuit tee resumed the inquiry into trION, WORCESTICR, AND SOUTH .P • CO, 4 ,7 I Ik r i rOWLDSHIELE mt.axx.N.vivsr. ) mile U RN said h e h a d a great deal of engineering evidence ::. etd- ' . 4 but i n consequence of what fell from the Committee ta as eh , er W oUld not call those witnesses. He would now call the very highest eminence, whose evidence was 4 he t He would call Mr. James Walker . . . 41 the case. t h, - " a mtN—Before the proceedings commence, I think it i b ralitis ° in the habit of writing me letters L ., .tt g at i% that people are late,t i t th e l ''at under consideration ; and I am of opinion that it s l4t t b p ies on both sides should see them, if they think N.tka a \v odk a ,: n not read them. , Oq taNea, Pe, Sir, that they do not emanate from the loes i Vaa indeed I think not. }lab r • c.,,Aet an not say that. All I say is, that they are nabit 'orcsttivts inquiry. Cas e. 4dd 'essi, e ' l Can assure you, Sir, that they are in the The c h The upon the same matter, as counsel in the lette" 4lg Mea seis e Whi eb — "a hat is all very proper.—(A laugh.) Here are l Otial e . t !t it i s hi I shall place on the table,. and I cannot but ob. kr Zits. 1,,,gh1Y reprehensible for parties to send such cum. ' Vl ith Walker " C lean have no weight with the Committee. '4' :libel. t ' h e'tabl io d by M Cocamuaa—l am not connected il e °t. -ae schemes e - r " • ' I received a wlti eh before the Committee. h aa b latt a„ . “ :411 Mr. Brunel, containing some questions to lis ae - "yo fa r : - co Was directed, and a copy of that communication Utia es ela toie e ,T tiel t to the London and Birmingham . parties. I k ith ; and th ey" Plans pointing out the railways with both " a es peet s hot, the two systems very plainly indeed, pl The aat enee to i ht f t the accommodation to South Staffordshire. °b t Wolverha m pt on t o O x f o rd i s , a c co rding to ItZher, all e d e n miles shorter by the Great Western line than by 1/ 7 11 4 "ning that from Wolverhampton to Abbot's /4 047h1it i at i o ' b e a narrow gauge as well as a broadgauge rad, 14 4,,,tatige tin canai deration the saving of fifteen miles . by the mfge f or t hee think the Great Western line is entitled to the klaj th e South Stafford district. When I say that, I am h es :hatk talt.ngirleering difficulties to be the same. Indeed, I tl4 t, e , w i s to a n : am sure it is the best line of the two. Ot t , . n t er ; .n laying down the broad gauge . with the 17hrattri7an six or eight years since I proposed the laying down etia iea u ge on the narrow gauge line. tlit 3 thv t a t tat was that ? Witness—l proposed to have tatZathe,_ tratfrd, where the Northern and Eastern joined e C°onties Railway. thati2Co it-4,:_"--Was that recommendation carried out ? ha t aa ` l , not. As regards the public the broad gauge rel y l "c ip ekl a3,-;4ePt back. As regards my own inte b r r e u s a ts d , g w a e uge ; ) 1? C oa t Would ' I . should prefer the narrow to the 'lna s ‘ : ocit a ,... lead me to give the narrow gauge my support. ""--Well, then, you are the more valuable to us as t llla "b est a, lt a f ik tY eso:7 attention was some time ago directed to a line of l:4 " : 84 , • London, thickish Worcester and North Wales, to atta tex, t kist; Onfts te of you form an opinion at that time between ttsti o a 4 6 J o ar the line you were called upon to consider and the Iset en i l °l Yhead, as to m a ki ng P or t Dynllaen the pack et "'• tt ge 'Nob vo consid ered that th e H o l y h ea d s t a tion was the best 41 a it a s . . tt era ke a:b o „,„ _ y opinion that Port Dynllaen was a very fine Lthat keeledanirin and capable of great improvement. IN tit tle b y Mr. AUSTIN—Those who accompanied me k 'ne hie report divided as to the superiority of both harbours. "t „ in favour of Dynllaen and others ni ''ksa a Of le Holyhead I was most decidedly in t ha t ; /4,4l°lYhead. The last railway that I gave up Staa the and York last year: The last one that I con. as the; Hull and Selby, several years ago. I am new . ern . - L a tlt he, t hat a I ,7 ni ngharn Canal Company. I understand it is aa s 'atial , 'tne of railway should be laid down along the bank! 14 ,Yet• but I know nothing more. The course of the line is Vte . tta ea , aa t ha ' t aseir l4 : 4 -1 think Mr. Brunel would be unwise to Ltlati t b - • to a l ocomotive or an atmospheric line for North ia i ks.. e ,tl teen'" ascertained the result of the great experiment % a ll sae7nirtaa . " b e a atmospheric„,_ which is about to be tried. % I ') 'ne h,l COCKBURN-1 think the company which London to Worcester would be more likely to 1 " th take it u Unless it is done in tha I\ l4, tthia.lhe bgr,eat. Probability of its being done at all. ta v g . k tbi ltan ig b • •.,11 unghain Company would do it, because any th i.s to h 2 11 44 7 that line would be taken from the trunk line. gian t :* et 6. n Object of national importance. Looking at the Vl A LW ah 7ge public question, I think of the plan of the two tigati7orasb7rhearoPton, that to Abbott's Wood is the best for 'l.l,l4hiettY„SluAlf—ls that founded on your opinion that the 4,itvc.nthle—fa*lth Oxford is the best for South Staffordshire, or N b tli i..hat there will be a saving of 15 miles? bciski'frorthavtleve that it would be more advantageous to 1 11 1 . 4 !Vsi a _ a ticia to have the communication open with Oxford. `°OtinUed—l consider the broad gauge best for a_ N litta c ek „„ I have travelled fifty-seven miles an hour within s's, °II a t i"" the broad gauge . This velocity has never been klt 4l n . a t ", the t bitli a i r , 4 gaUge. The four . feet eightainch gauge can hit ,- h,, Came speed as the broad gauge. 4,,,a1 4 4 4 . r,p oet "t? drew the attention of Mr. Walker to the pas. Zrl a t _Cro aa Lin Which he says that the narrow gauge may ttl'e.Volve r "'le in velocity if they would only put on a '4 l.tho ki ker kits, t rirlds that when that report was made he had no kt‘rayktkrtear Western would have gone se much a.head. 11040, 41 to b e 2 1. the whole question were open, and all the . kat atice-arba'e-Fonstructed, which gauge would you choose . N isk iite t ri . N....1;41de gauge certainly. t hist aa thi e , It wide guage ? Mr. Walker—The . seven. iu th all the great lines of railway committed a a tai kab e first instance in not purchasing land for four 4 : / r ot a titi " r equire one set of lines for passenger traffic ik t re o ty to. 57 3(1 14 tram,. Th e t 'nor think tt nPort e „_the question of shifting a matter . I f t %itki geh %tea. " v e The facilities are so great that it is ha, ego the"anee where it takes place. 4j 'Sell, QM Withdrew t tos. 44t lah t4 ' P 's eXam• • 'l l4 • th a t e at N., —lneu by 1....00118URN—1 am Chair asp, a, the "esterit Company, As such I entertain no ail/41:41'tiaa o,sngeested line from Worslden to North Wa . les ) )4, to o xic " bY the Great Western Company if the line I tti4 l aQ:tta as 41 and Wolverhampton. would be carried out to Port Dynllaen or t 4 o t , tOs o •I h estimates have not been made to my i t la b e i s „ ena ae if ttl , the line to Holyhead or Fort Dynllaen N. , 4 '4 ? 14t h 4'dePendent company, and it did not pay, it th, ' , bil e of Irish , the Great Western Company to take a - ae ti ed, scatlrleattc to the Great Western Company. No trta a 4 ,, 4 o e p r ed, but the subject has been discussed o seh t els, Directors frequently during the last 4 tl) t4e It W as not h,. o W ei „ Made a proportion of the pro aaell aa erhaMpton. The alternative terminus as 41 / 44. 'aik .' 4 th e "`°l3'head must have lseen discussed, think, at a t 4 1 0 , 4 ' th e k; lineation of the terminus depends upon the to: ga t ; I t i e t • I think there may be some minutes of these )4 14 hy b i n Patt:.°t rernernber any distinct resolutions. Wk had 44- ti r ‘ Al: 4 a Lit 'an ' e nt last year. The Chester and t1.41--bt_.l4 this Year. W oppose it. is line sug e gestdid itsel not f until the Bill Holyhea was in d . Mr. Rusrell—The line has long been the subject of contempla . lion. It was in consequence of the doubts which I had heard cast on the intentions of the Company in the course of the examination of Mr. Walker that I now come forward to be ex amined. The Great Western Company has subscribed half a million to the line to Fishguard and Pembroke. If this Bill were passed I have no doubt but that the Great Western would make the line to Port Dynllaen or Holyhead. No figure has been mentioned as the probable cost, but railways cost less now -20,0001. a mile less. I believe that:they thought the North Wales could be made. There are several hues of railway to be made by the Great Western Railway, There is a project of making a hue of railway to Warwick and to Birmingham—that is by an indepen. dent company. There is no subscription from the Great Western. No engineer has yet been appointed. The question of gauge has been left for future decision, but I have no doubt if the broad gauge were carried to Rugby, it would be carried to Birmingham. The company was formed a couple of months ago. There is also a plan to carrying the broad gauge to Cheltenham. The eastern terminus of it is at Shipton, on the proposed line of the railway from Oxford to Wolverhampton. This is an independent company. If the broad guage should be carried to Shipton, the.line would be carried to Oxford. The Great Western Company subscribed half the capital for that line. There were reports by the Board of Trade in favour of certain lines proposed by the South_ Western Company in the south of England. In consequence of an arrangement with the Great Western, those lines were abandoned. The basis of that agree ment was to carry out the recommendation of the Board of Trade, which was to discourage these competing lines. I do not think they could carry any line to Exeter, so long as the circum tances remain as they are, or so long as the grounds of the decision of the Board of Trade continue the same. If any alte rations were made, the Board of Trade might decide as they could. There is an appeal on the subject from the South_ Western Company pending at present before the Board of Trade. There is a case now pending for a line from Weymouth, the South_ Western line coming into it at Dorchester. We do not intend to lay down a double gauge unless ordered to do so by the Board of Trade. There is an application before the Board of Trade, on the part of the Southampton and Dorchester line, for a double line of rails. The Great• Western were resisting the introduction of a clause into the Bill compelling them so to do, but they will do so if required by the Board of Trade. The Grand Junction Com pany, as individuals, are promoting the Oxford, Worcester, ansi Wolverhampton line. Re-examined by Mr. COCKBURN—We should be mad to think of making the line between Worcester and North Wales unless we had the rest of the line. With regard to the West of Eng land lines, to which allusion has been made, there were three lines proposed. The Board of Trade reported in favour of the Bath and Weymouth, and of the Southampton and Dorchester lines. The South-Western and the Great Western Companies agreed to abide by the decision of the Board of Trade, and so the matter has stood. By Mr. V. STUART—The principal traffic of the Welsh line would be from Ireland, but there would also be a great increase of traffic. The Fishguard 'line will be in communication with Wexford. There is a line of railway proposed from the North of Ireland to Wexford. It would certainly, notwithstanding this, be worth our while to make the North Wales line. It would decidedly be worth our while to make both lines. The one would be a feeder ft,r the South and the other for the North. Mr. James Pym, examined by Mr. COCKBURN— I am the treasurer of the Dublin and Kingstown Railway, since the year 1831. 1 have considered the question as to the best mode of communication between Dublin and London. Some years since I turned my at tention to the line from Port Dynllaen and Holyhead. lam aware of the proposed line by Chester and Holyhead. I think competition would be highly desirable. I do not think the Chester and Holyhead line would carry out all the objects I have in view in facilitating the communication between Dublin and London. Mr. Walker's report states the saving of time in Dublin would be five hours, but they are reckoned from the time the bags arrive at the post-office and their departure ; but practically we should have not one hour. 1 believe the proposed line through Worcester and North Wales would provide greater time for the accommoda tion of Dublin. Mr. Brunel says that the communication between the two cities would take place in twelve hours. I believe if the Great Western Company got the line to Worcester, it would be greatly to their interest to tarry on the line to Portdynllaen, and open a communication from thence to Wick low or Dublin. If Portdynllaen were nearer a port, the Dublin and Kingston Company would carry on the line to Wicklow. The passage between Wicklow and Portdynllaen is the shortest. There was a large and respectable meeting in Dublin in favour of the Portdynllaen line. Cross.examined by Mr. AUSTIN—The subject was considered by the Government last year and a representation was made to them on the subject. They granted an annuity to the Chester and Holyhead Company for the services in carrying out this line. They would have coacentrated the Wicklow and Dublin traffic at Portydnllaen, and the southern traffic through Wexford at Fishguard. That I believe is the intention. If suitable harbours were made at Wexford and Fishguard, and the Fishguard line is made a considerable portion of the traffic of the south of Irelapd will pass by that route. The traffic from Sligo and Galway would be concentrated at Dublin and go to Portdynllaen. I also think it would have a large proportion of the Belfast traffic. By Mr. AtisriN—Would not the result be that the Great Western Company would by these schemes have bagged and put into their pocket the whole of Ireland ? The witness—l think it wou!d be infinitely to our advantage .hat they should do so if they will do it on these terrns.—(A laugh.) Cross.examinatiGn continued—By Mr. Walker's plan we should have no time at all to answer our letters in Dublin. The four hours mentioned by him would practically give us no time at all— but by the other proposed scheme. though nominally we should have only two hours, yet really we should have four, because we should have two hours each way. By the CHAIRMAN—What I want to effect is, that the journey between London and Dublin shall certainly be performed in twelve hours. Cross-examined by Mr. CRIPPS-There is a Bill for a rail way to Bangor from Portdynllaen, to communicate with the Chester and Holyhead Railway. This would be an important line for persons going to the north of England from Portdynllaen, while those going to the south would go by the Worcester line. I expect that if the Great Western Company get:the line to Portdynllae❑ they will also make the harbour, because it will be their interest to do so. Mr. Thomas Penson, examined by Mr. Carets—l reside at Oswestry, which has great communication with North Wales. I have been surveyor of the counties of Montgomery and Denbigh for thirty years. My attention was drawn in 1836 to the pro.. priety of forming a railway from Portdynllaen. The project then proposed was to go by Shrewsbury and the Vale of the Dee. In 1840 the Hue by Worcester was strongly recommended. At that time the scheme was considered a hopeless one, on ac count of the great length of the line. Unless a line is made to Worcester, there is no chance of the formation of a North Wales line. An Independent line from Worcester to Portdynllaen would be one of the most miserable failures ever proposed. The principal landowners in Wales would give their support to this line. I have seen the harbour of Portdynllaen, and I cannot add anything to what you have already heard from high authorities on the subject. By the CHAIRMAN —There are engineering difficulties, but they may be overcome ; but the line would fail for want of traffic. It would run through a thinly populated county. Colonel Barlow, examined by Mr. CAMPS— I am the Chairman of the Southampton Dock Company. I think it would be a great advantage to Southampton to have a direct communication with Wolverhampton or the mineral districts. Mr. Shaw, of Wolverhampton, examined by Mr. COCIBURN-1 am a merchant. There was a public meetiag at Wolverhampton last Monday, over which I presided. It was respectably attended. A resolution was carried in favour of increased railway communi cation with the metropolis, and in favour of having a line to com pete with the Birmingham line, and in support of the pro posed Oxford, Worcester, aad Wolverhampton line. They wanted a competing line with the London and Birmingham to secure a low rate of charges. They at present can get their goods at Wolverhampton at a cheaper rate, by a circuitous route of conveyance by canal or by the Great Western Railway than they can by the direct route of the London and Birmingham line. I think it would be most desirable that we should have a commu nication opened with Oxford and Southampton. Mr. C. A. Saunders, examined by Mr. Cocanuan--I am the Secretary to the Great Western Company, and have been so since its establishment In )333. 1 recollect in 1836 the Great Western Company assisting in promoting the Worcester and Oxford line. It did not succeed, partly in consequence of embarrass ment in the money market, and partly in consequence of the Oxford and Lincoln line being thrown out. We got the Bill for the Oxford and Sheffield line in 1843, and it was opened in 1844. He always considered that the Oxford line would certainly be carried out to Worcester. It was taken up again this year on the application of the Staffordshire people. On that application being made the Great Western Company stated there should be an indication of the feelings of the Staffordshire people and of the landowners on the line. The parties were told there would be no disinclination to take up the subject, if we could be assured of the feelings of the people, and the traffic would be remunerative. We have always considered the Worces ter line would lead to a line to the Welsh coast. I have no doubt but that if the Worcester line were completed, a line to North Wales would follow as a matter of course. A North Wales line of itself would not be remunerative as an inde pendent line, but in connexion with another it would. It is worth the while of the Company to carry its line through a less remunerative district to secure the traffic through the whole line. That is the result of all itailway experience. The Oxford and Rugby line was not taken up seriously by the Great Western Company until last year. It then became evident that it would be important to secure communication between Rugby and Oxford. It would be the interest of the Great Western to bring down the traffic to us more freely. It would be our interest to work that line most efficiently, because any passenger brought down by it must be ours. We should have an undivided interest in promoting that traffic, and the London and Birmingham would not have an undivided interest, because they would lose the passenger when he came on to the Great Western line. It would be our interest to bring traffic to the line, it would be theirs to divert it. It would be our interest to work the line to Southampton. It would be our interest to in duce a passenger to travel from Rugby to Basingstoke by working the line efficiently. The present course of passengers would be to go from Rugby to London, and then to Southampton. by the South-Western. By the proposed line passengers would quit the train at Rugby, and go to Southampton direct by our line. The object of the Tring line would be for their purposes what the object of our line is for our purposes. It would sweep traffic back in an easterly direction, instead of bringing it down to the south. The best line to promote the interests of the public is ours, because we have distinct pecuniary interest in working it as efficiently as possible, which the others have not, as it would open the traffic to the south. It appears to me more important that the broad guage should go up than that the narrow gauge should come down. It appears to me that it would be for the public advantage that this ground should be considered neutral ground, and should be laid down both with the broad and narrow gauge. It formed part of the original scheme that there should be a narrow gauge over that district as well as a bread. It was a portion of the original agreement, and is not a scheme recently adopted to obviate difficulties. It does not follow, as a matter of course, that the coal traders would be obliged to have a double stock of waggons in consequence of the change of gauge. Their harrow gauge waggons could be placed upon one of our trucks. If a new line were opened at every gauge, the coal 'waggons would, in many places, have to be be altered, for the waggon used for the pit is different from that used for a locomotive line. They would not take an expensive locomotive waggon into the pit, it would not be economical. I have had frequent communicatious with the Board of Trade. I made the offers with respect to the Oxford and Rugby. We offered to provide whatever might be necessary for shifting loads at Rugby without expense to the public. I communicated to them the proposal for the broad and narrow gauge. I told them we were carrying coals on the Great Western at Id. per ton per mile when we did not find the waggons, and I told them we would do the same on the Wolverhampton line. Ido not think that is the minimum. If we have large quantities I think we might do it at 4d. a ton. I never proposed to submit the Great Western Company to the revision clause. Last year, I think the London and Birmingham, joined with us in opposition to the Bill for the revision clause. I was not then aware that the London and Birmingham had pro. posed to the Board of Trade to subject themselves to the revision clause. Several interviews were had with the Board of Trade, the inconveniences of the plan were shown, and the clause was taken out and another substituted, taking old railways out of the operation of the revision clause. I was not aware that the London and Birmingham Company were about to propose to submit to the revision clause, and, on the contrary, I thought they would make no such bargain. Ido not think that last year the London and Birmingham was so opposed to the revision clause as the other companies. The power of revi sion as it now stands amounts to this, without preventing your in creasing your capital or limiting your expenditure, the Legislature says you shall not, pay more than ten per cent., without subjecting yourself to revision, and then you wi❑ be guaranteed ten per cent. It would operate as a premium on extravagant outlay, and gives you no encouragement to extend your trade beyond ten per cent., or to economise either. The only real and efficient mode of check is a clause reserving a power to revise the tolls. There could be no difficulty in always keeping the expenditure so as to avoid revision. Share. TUE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 31 1545, The CHAIRMAN hoped the cross-examination in the beginning would be confined to one counsel, for if the same was to be gone through by each opposing counsel, it would occupy an interminable length of time. Mr. TALBOT said he could not answer for his Learned Friends; but he hoped that course would not be followed. He then asked the witness for the gradients on the branches, which were handed in in a tabular form. The Learned Counsel then read an extract loin a work on the importance of levels on railways, by which it was stated that a gradient of 1 in 200 would require double the propelling power to that on a level, and so on in proportion to the diminution of the gradients the diminution of propelling power. The witness said there was a good deal of truth in that. Mr. TALBOT— I presume it is all truth, for it is from a report on the Dublin and Drogheda Railway, made in the year 1836, by W. Cubits, Esq.—(Laughter.) . Witness—There were very heavy gradients on the Manchester and Leeds line, such as 1 in 100 ; one in 200 was the steepest gradient on the London and York line, except at King'..cross. In conse luence of the gradient on the London and York line, and the heavy description of traffic, much heavier engines would be required than those on many other lines. The total number of feet of rise on the line from London to York was 1,224 feet, and the fall 1,1.38 feet. Witness proposed to cross the Witham Navi gation twice, at Boston and Saxelby. Ilas not charged in his esti. mate the sum to be paid for the purchase of the canal. A straight line from Lincoln to Boston was about 27 or 28 miles. Would save three or four miles by going in that way, but could not get that line. As to the line north of Lincoln, the Fordyke was crossed at Swan Pool, and again near Lincoln; the latter by a bridge, with a lift to let vessels up. That crossing was at an inclination of 1 in 100. The pri posed bridge was 150 yards from the present bridge, which now obstructed the navigation. Has not included the purchase of the Fordyke navigation in his estimate. The distance of the station from the proposed bridge was about 200 yards; the width of the little drainage ditch where the line proposed to cross it was 130 feet. There was a swing bridge at present close to where the proposed bridge was to be. Approaching this bridge there was a curve of 20 chains radius. There was a cutting near Gains. borough, extending to 153 miles. The cu:ting them extended to 554,1)00 cubic yards. The embankment over the Trent was 558,272 yards. The embankments between Lincoln and Don. caster, over twenty feet, were as follows : One of 19 feet, containing 84,000 yards. One of 24 feet, containing 66,450 yards. One of 25 feet, containing 81,718 yards. One of 28 feet, containing 219,833 yards. One of 20 feet, containing 48,000 yards. This was as far as Bawtery. The further examination was stopped upon this point, the wit ness agreeing to hand in a table of the whole of the cuttings and embankments along the line, over twenty feet. The counsel then went to another branch of the case. The witness in reply to the next question, said he could not tell the distance of the Archbishop of York's garden from the line. The line did cross one of the Archbishop's walks, eleven or twelve feet above it. Did not think the limit of deviation entered the garden, but went within 450 yards of the house. To Mr. LEE—The witness proceeded to fill up the blank left by Mr. Talbot in the number and extent of the cuttings and em bankments along the whole line, which were immense. The uni form width was 33 feet, and the slope 2 to 1, and the cost of fenc ing 3201. per mile. The total cost of the railway between Lincoln and Doncaster the witness could not give at present, nor of that be tween Doncaster and York. The cost of the first 5i miles out of London, exclusive of the station, including everything except the purchase of land, would be as follows :--8,065L, 6,7591., 28L, 9,825/., 9,204/., 511., 5,000/. Those make 38,0001. Then there were other sums of 19,30001., 7,0001., 9001., 26,0001., 4,280/., 53,7201., 2,500/., 1,8001.. 2,7501., 1,700/., 1,650!., 1,0001., 1,9081., 6001., 2,7501„ 1,760!., and 33,0001. The distance from London to Huntingdon would cost as follows Fencing Earth works 346,555 Tunnel Bridges, &c. ••• ........ 227,185 Total £1,011,145 101,565 Contingencies ... Total Permanent ways Station, exclusive of London 354,000 50,000 Total, without land ........E1,5'25,710 Land The Counsel then went on to say he would require the cost be iwet n the following places :—Peterborough to Newark, Newark to Bawtry, Bawtry to York, Peterborough to Boston, Boston to Lin coln. Seijeant KINGIALE objected to this course as inconvenient and unusual. The witness said he could not give it until Tuesday next. Mr. JAMES said he would require similar tables fur the South ine on behalf of the Eastern Counties line. Mr. SMITH said, that on behalf of the Direct Northern, he would require the cost of the line from Lincoln to Bawtery. Mr. WEnsTER, for the Sheffield and Lincoln line, would wish to know the cost of the first mile out of Sheffield? The witness said it wou.d cost about 46,0001. including everything. Mr. Serge.nt KINGSLAKE said he heard he had been understood to say yesterday that the London and York line was costing 3,0001. a day expenses--what he meant to have conveyed was, that the costs of all parties amounted to that. Mr. WALL said that this Committee-room was costing 3,0001. a day, and that could not be too publicly known. The Committee then adjourned. (YESTERDAY.) GROUP 11. This Committee met at twelve o'clock, by adjournment from the 22d instant. Viscount Barrington in the chair. LANcasTEn AND c.araLxszz RAILWAY. The preamble and the whole of the clauses (with one exception) were passed at the previous sittings of the Committee, the only cause of delay arising from a dispute pending between the Railway and the Canal Companies, relative to a demand for compensation by the latter body. An arrangement hating been entered into by the two parties, sa ,,factory to both, the Bill received the sanction of the Committee. The only remaining projects comprised in this group were the COCKERMOUTH AND WORKINGTON RAILWAY, A short line, only 6 miles and 65 chains in length, proposed to form a communication with the Whitehaven, ➢Saryport, and Car lisle Railways, and the projected WHITEHAVEN AND FURNESS JUNCTION RAILWAY. This line h 31 miles and 75 chains in length, and Mr. Stephen. son, the engineer, stated that the estimated cost was 350,000/. The country was tolerably level, and the construction of the line presented no difficulties, there being no tunnelling, &c. The gra. dients were very good. One or two witnesses were examined, to prove the necessity for the line in the neighbourhood through which it would pass. No opposition was offered to either of the above projects, and, consequently, the duties of the Committee were merely formal. The Committee rose before four o'clock. RAILWAY RETURNS. RAILWAY TRAFFIC.—The following are the Total Receipts of Rail- ways for the past week—that is to say, up to the date to which the respective returns are made, together with the receipts of the same week in the previous year:— , 6 Week Last 2, 1 c 4 ending NAME OF RAILWAY . week. ~ o t ,,, t..) .9. .£ Z Iday 24 Arbroath and Forf ar ....... 23 Bristol and Birmingham ....... ••• • • • 3,738 2,227 25 Chester and Birkenhead .•••••• •• •• • • 612 431 22 Dublin and Dr0gheda................ 1,002 - 27 Dublin and Kingstown ...... .. 25 Dundee and Arbroath ...-•••• • • •• • • 301 248 24 Durham and Sunderland ... ••••• • • • • • 333 2(41 24 Edinburgh and Giasgow .... ........ 2,834 2,134 25 Eastern Counties and North Eastern 5,068 4,724 24 Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ayr .•• • • . 1,884 1,454 24 Glasgow and Green0ck......... .... 1,102 ii9o 24 Grand Junction ............. ...... . 10,005 8,115 24 Gravesend and Rochester.... - 24 Great North of England ...... 18 Great Western .. .. 24 Bull and Selby ... 24 Liverpool and Manchester • • ..... •• • 6,406 4,819 24 London and Birmingham .••••• • •• • • 20,407 18,193 2 2 4 5 L L o o i i i i d d o o n n ariiiiidd B li r la ig c h k t w oi a l l .... .1 .... .......... ..... ..... ~ 41 : 40 5 1 4 8 3, 9 6 ,5 1 27 Londox and Croydon .......... ..... 1,283 604 24 London and Gree nw i ch .•••••• • • • • • " 1,164 1,942 24 London and South W estern. •••• • • • • 7,300 8,058 25 Manchester, Bolton, and Bury •••• • • 981 -- 23 Manchester and Birmingham. ••••• - 6 4 : 5 11 ' 7 1 5,031 3 , 476 24 Manchester, Leeds, an d H u ll Assoc• • 24 11.282 8,802 Midland Counties .••••• • • • • ' 1,15 G 669 24 Newcastle and Darli ng t o n •••••• • • • ' '24 Newcastle and Carlisle...... •••• • • • • 1,571 1 , 56 3 25 Newcastle and North Shields •••• • •• 3 34 823 - North Union and Bolton and Preston - 1,306 - Paris, Corbel], and Orleans ••••• • • • • • - 5,710 26 Paris and Rouen . 24 Preston and Wyre • • ...... •••••• • • • • 444 307 24 Sheffield and Manchester •••••• • • • "• 4 861 - 24 South Eastern ••••• • • • • • 24 Taff Vale •••• • • • • 24 25 YorkYarmouth and Northand Norwich Midland •• .• •• •• ••• ..• .. .. ...... . 2_7 2 : 2_ 2 286 3_ 1,528563637734471 SLAVE-TRADE TREATY The Treaty for the Suppression of the Slave-trade between France and Great Britain has just been concluded. This treaty has in view a triple ob ject—the suppression of the slave-trade, the re moval of a source of bickering and of danger be tween the two great contracting power, and by the removal of that source of danger, added to an ennobling alliance in a holy cause, a third and greater object, that of cementing peace and friendship between two coun tries, whose good understanding secures the peace of the world, the progress of civilisation, and the spread of hu manity everywhere. The following is the treaty : His Majesty, the King of the French, and her Majesty the Qneen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Considering that the Convention of 30th Nov., 1831, and 22d March, 1833, have attained their object in preventing the slave-trade under French and English flags ; but that this odious traffic yet subsists, and that the said Conventions are insufficient to assure its complete suppression. His Majesty the King of the French ha v i ng t est ifi e d hi s ee -1 sire to adopt more efficacious measures, and her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain having equally at heart to concur in this design. They have resolved to conclude a new Convention which shall shall be substituted in the place and stead of said Ccriven tions of 1&31 and 1833. And to this effect have named (hear names) who after hav ing exchanged full powers, have agreed upon the following articles : ARTICLE I, In order that the flag of his Majesty the King of the French, and of her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain may not be usurped contrary to the right of nations, and to the laws of the two countries to cover the slave-trade ; and in order to provide more efficaciously for the suppression of this traffic-- Which cruisers shall be employed for the purpose above indi cated, conformably to the following dispositions : His Majesty the King of the French engages to establish within the shortest possible period upon the western coast o f Africa, from the Green Cape ( Cape Vert) to the 16 deg. 30 min. of meridianal latitude, a naval force, composed at least cf 26 cruisers, as well sailing as steam (taut a voile qu' a raleur. And her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain engages to establish, with the shortest possible delay, upon the same part of the coast of Africa, a force composed of at the least 26 cruisers, steam and sail, and upon the western coast of Africa a sufficient number of cruisers to suppress efficiently the slave trade. ARTICLE 11. The said French and English naval forces shall act in con cert for the suppression of the slave-trade. They shall commence their operations by establishing an ex set surveillance upon all the part of the Western Coast of Africa comprised in the first Article; in particular upon all the points N% here the slave-trade is earrii donr They shall, with this view, exercise fully and completely all the powers of which the Crown of France and that of England are now in possession, except the restriction introduced by this present Conviction, so far as regards French and English ships. ARTICLE 111. The officers in the service of his Majesty the King of the French, and the officers of her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain, who shall be respectively charged with the com mand of the squadron, destined to assure the execution of the present Convention, shall agree upon the best means of exercising the said surveillance in chosing and designating the places of station, and in confiding these posts to cruisers of the two nations acting together or sepa rately, according as it shall be judged convenient (convenable), In such wise, nevertheless, that in the case when one of those posts shall be exclusively confided to the cruizers of these na tions, the cruizers of other nations may come there at all times to exercise the rights which be!ong to them. ARTICLE IV. Treaties for the suppression of the slave trade will be ne gotiated with all the native princes and chiefs of the above named coast of Africa, according as it shall appear necessary to the commanders of the French and English stations. These treaties will be negotiated either by communders them- Selves, or by officers to whom they will give instructions to this effect. hollers, instead of getting an increased dividend, got a premium in new shares. The present system of revision is hurtful to the public. The promoters of the Great Western line had not an opportunity of meeting that of their opponents, on the ques tion of gauge, before the Board of Trade. I disclaim any intention of finding fault with the Board of Trade; but in consequence of the pressure of business, they did us great injus tice. There were several interviews with the Board of Trade re specting a line in which the Great Western were interested. They applied to us to explain the objects of the Oxford and Rugby line, and to the Birmingham also. In October Mr. Lang sent to me, and said, that what he was about to say was not to be taken as a final decision. He then told me, on the authority of Lord Dal housie— Mr. HILDYARD put it to the Committee whethe r Mr. Lang ought not to be called ? The C►►AIRMAN said Mr. Saunders did not throw any imputations on the Board of Trade, and he thought he might be permitted to go on. If any thing were given in evidence affecting Mr. Lang, be might be furnished with a copy of the _evidence and reply to it, if he wished. Mr. Saunders's evidence resumed—Mr. Lang told me with re ference to Oxford and Rugby, tie Board of Trade considered, on public grounds, we ought to have it, as it was our interest to work it most efficiently, but Lord Dalhousie had asked if we would lay down both the broad and narrow gauge. I asked the object of the question, if it was merely to remedy the inconvenience of the shifting of the goods. He said it was. I replied that the expense would be too great, and that other means would be devised by Mr. Brunel, which were explained, and he was desired to ask Lord Dalhousie if he thought it would answer the purpose. He did so, and replied to me afterwards that they did consider it would answer the purpose, and from that time until they reported against us, we heard nothing further from them as to the Oxford and Rugby line. By the CHAIRMAN—He said that it was not a final decision, be cause they would not come to a final decision until the 30th NOVCHI ber. He said it was a provisional decision, and we heard nothing further. When the decision of the Board of Trade came out Mr. Russell and myself had an interview with Lord Dalhousie, and represented the matter to him. He said he could not undertake to recollect all that passed be tween them—that they would not alter the decision—that he was sorry if we had been injured, but they must abide by the result of any it qutry. I did not see Mr. Lang. We had no oppor tunity of bringing the merits of the broad and narrow gauge on this line before the Board of Trade. I made frequent communications on the subject of the broad and narrow gauge on the Worcester and Wolverhampton line. In the latter commu nications I became aware that they attached importance as to whether the change of guage should take place at Bir. mingliam or Gloucester. I ascertained the Board of Trade considered it was a question whether the broad gauge should be carried to Birmingham or the narrow to Bristol, and I said that it would be quite as easy for the broad gauge to be carried to Birmingham. I explained to him the nature of the agreement between the; Gloucester and the Great 'Western Company. I told him that, according to that agreement, it would be impossible to carry the narrow gauge to Bristol. After this negotiations took place, and the line was purchased by a nar. row gauge company. I pointed out to Mr. Laing that the minerals of South Wales being brought by a broad gauge line to Standish, it would be Important to carry the broad gauge up to Birmingham. We are the possessors of the line from Standish to Gloucester.— ( The witness then pointed out upon the map the relative positions of the respective broad gauge and narrow gauge lines in connection with the Gloucester Railways, and explained the rfghts of the respective companies to the working of the respective fines).—He pointed out to the Board of Trade that it would be mere ad vantageous to take the broad guage line to Birmingham, than to bring the narrow guage down to Gloucester, and he thought so still. The Great Western had completed the Gloucester line, and they had bound down the Gloucester Company not to brisrg down another line of railway to their injury, after they had completed the line for them, and given them the right of working it for ever. It would be for the public advantage that in the Wolverhampton District there should be a second line, which would enable the public to exercise their option as to the broad or narrow gauge. The Bir mingham line w ould always have such advantages that, as long as it acted fairly, we could not compete with them. I believe the Lon don and Birmingham Company to be as well conducted as any other, but 1 believe it is for the benefit of the public, and of the companies too that there should be something to keep them in check. When I see the increase of traffic consequent upon the lowering of fares, I have modified my opinions greatly on the subject of competing lines. 1 think there is plenty of traffic for both. This is the first time we have ever come in collision with the London and Birmingham, but they have come in collisions with us on the question of the Tring extension to Cheltenham. Where there is a fair traffic that is likely to be remunerative it is for the Interests of the public that lines of railways should be extended. (The wit ness stated from the population returns that the population on the Great Western proposed line to Wolverhampton was 497,396, and by the London and Birmingham proposed line it was 406,340). Between Oxford and Rugby by the Great Western the population was was 01,950, and by the London and Birming ham, 82,613.) The miles of new railway, on the Great Western scheme, were 148 miles to make. The London and Birmingham would have to make 171 miles and 5-Bths of new railway, the dif ference being 23 miles and s.Sths from of the Great Western. — (The witness then put in the traffic tables) We are prepared, in case the Bill should pass, to con sent to a maximum rate for coal and other articles. The present maximum was Id. per mile, and he was authorised by the Directors to say, that they would admit as a maximum %d. per ton per mile, wherever it should he carried more than fifty unites. The, Company, in consideration of gaining this line, were willing to accede to the terms proposed by the Board of Trade —( file terms were then read by Mr. Cockburn, but so rapidly that it was impossible to catch the purport.) Cross .examined by Mr. HILDYARD.-1 do not think it would be for the advantage of the London and Birmingham that the broad gauge should becarried from London to Birmingham. We are acting in harmoi.y with the Grand Junction. Ido not contemplate car rying the bread gauge further north than Wolverhampton, but it may be done. In conversation it has been suggested that the Grand Junction might think it advi sable to carry the broad gauge, as well as the narrow gauge, on to Liverpool ; and it has been asked, if the Grand Junction Company were to propose such a scheme, whether the Great Western would assist them. (The witness was then cross examined as to the lines proposed by the South-Western in the west of England, and pointed out their position on the map) The Board of Trade re.mmmended the Great Western projects in that system, and rejected the South-Western. They did not impose any conditions upon us for their decisions as they did in the Bir mingham lines. We got the whole of taose lines without any conditions from the Board of Trade. We also got a decision in favour of our South Wales line. There is no instance in which the Board of Trade has repotted against us except with regard to the present line. With respect to the Newberry line, there were conflicting deci. sions of Parliamentary Committees. Mr. Lang told the that it was the opinion of Lord Dalhousie that we ought to have the Oxford and Rugby line, if we would lay down the broad and narrow gauge. I told him I had a plan which I thought would be more economical, and which would equally answer the purpose. I explained it to him. He said he thought it would answer the purpose. I asked him to mention it to Lord Dalhousie; he told me ho had done so, and that Lord Dalhousie said he thought it would answer the purpose, and I never had any communication on the subject. The plan which I proposed was, that we should be at the whole expense of shifting the goods at Rugby. When I saw Lord Dalhousie afterwards, he said he remembered the fact, that he would not answer for what passed below ; that if we were misled, he was sorry for it; that he was not prepared to state that it would make any alteration in their decision; and that if we had been wronged we should have an opportunity of being righted elsewhere, and that they must abide by the consequences. I certainly have strted my doubts as to the propriety of working the broadguage and narrow guage together. If a narrow guage line is to be carried from Standish to Bristol it will greatly incon venience our South Wales traffic. If they were subject to the revision clause the Great Western Company would extend their works so as to keep down their dividend at 10 per cent. The revision clause would be imperative. The increased expenditure would benefit the public, but not in the mode contemplated by the Act, be. cause the public would not get the forced revision of the tolls. (Questions were then put relative to the accommodation afforded by the respective lines. To these questions, howeeer, he was not pressed to return occurate answers, and the further cross-examin ation on the subject was deferred until Monday.) Re-examined by Mr. COCKBURN.—From the commencement of the scheme in 1836, the extension of the line through North Wales always formed part oj the plan. I am not aware of any cases in which the Board of Trade has sought to impose conditions, they have been invariably offered by the companies. Mr. COCKBURN—That is my case, Sir. The CHAIRNIAN—You have exarhined 99 witnesses, it is a pity you have not called another to make it 100, The CHAIRMAN—Oh, by no means, Mr. Cockburn! Mr. COCKBURN—We can indulge you, Sir. The CHAIRMAN—Oh, by no means! 1 have no desire for it. The Committee then adjourned at six o'clock to twelve on Monday. GROUP X. LONDON AND YORK LINE. The Committee assembled at twelve o'clock, and resumed The engineering evidence, by continuing the cross-examination of Mr. Cubitt. Previous to his being asked a question, an applica tion was made to that Committee to permit Mr. Cubitt's attendance in another Committee for a few minutes, to prove a report, which was granted. On his return, Mr. TALBOT resumed his cross-examination--The 596,0001. was the estimate for land on the main line, for 186 miles, at 3,200/. per mile—that included the forty-nine acres for the King's-cross station. Could not say that he was aware of any line on which the land was had for that; at Hornsey, the line traversed ornamental property to some extent. Could not say whether that was the case with the London and Birmingham. At the commencement of the London and York line at London se veral small streets would be inclosed, but no existing accesses would be taken away. The width of the Regent's Canal, where witness proposed to cross it, was about 100 feet. He proposed to abridge that considerably, but would allow space for the passage of one boat, by an aqueduct. Had had an interview with the canal engineer on the subject, but he did not say he was satisfied. Here the model was produced, and the witness showed where the alteration was proposed to be made. He proposed to abridge the wharfage, which would be a matter for claim for compensation. Had heard that the canal company were petitioners against the Bill. He proposed to pass under the canal without altering the level of the canal. If that should be found to be an insurmountable objection, the bridge should be widened, which would cost something in addition. . The estimate for the cost of the proposed bridge was 7,0001. The level of 1 in 108 was in a tunnel, and in London Clay. There would not be a constant drip from it. Was not aware that there was a drip at Primrose-hill tunnel, which was made of London clay. Would take care to remedy the defect by removing the water before he made the tunnel. London clay was rather a rough customer to deal with. The drip from it acted like soap on the rails. There arc six tunnels between London and South Mimms, a distance of fifteen miles, but they were very short. There were eight tunnels in the first twenty. three miles. The first six tunnels were all of London clay. The seventh and eighth tunnels are in chalk. The heaviest earthwork was on the eighth mile from London. The cutting was fifty-four feet deep, and eight furlongs long. The difficulties in London clay increased in proportion to the depth ; the slope would be 3to 1. The deepest embankment in London clay was about a mile and a quarter—the depth of that was 36 feet ;Lit con tained 368,585 cubic yards of embankment. This was five miles from King's-cross; it had a slope of 2 to I, which ought to be sufficient to secure any embankment, even in London clay. The total quantities of earth work were, on the main line, 12,619,261 cubic bards, and 1,926,516 aide cuttings in addition, making a total of 4,545,839 cubic yards; the total spoil Wag 6,028,691 yards, and the total embankment about 8,000,000. For the first 30 miles out of London there was not much ballast to be had. Might have to bring it 14 or 15 miles. Was alloyed 2s. 6d. a yard for the ballast for the whole of the line. Is quite sure that will be sufficient. Had no water communication for the conveyance of material until he got to Huntingdon. Had put down 6,000/. per mile as the cost of the transit of material for the whole of the line. From Huntingdon to Peterborough the distt let was singularly devoid of water communication, and that was the reason they wanted railways.—(Laughter.) North o f Hunting don there was very little water communication. The price he put down for iron was 121. 10s. per ton delivered. The sleet ers were to be the same as on the Dover line. The price was ss. 6d. Per sleeper. They were laid down about one yard apart. Had not put in his estimate the cost of maintenance. He would let that question stand over. The South-Eastern line was 66 miles long. Did not know that the line cost 29,000/. for maintenance for the first year. Five times that would be a serious sum.—(Laughter.) There was no London clay on the South-Eastern line; but there was clay nearly as bad. Had made no estimate for temporary police during the progress of the works. That never came under his cognizance as an engineer ; but it formed a large item in the expenditure, no doubt ; on the first 60 miles from London had gradients of from I in 260, to 1 in 200 on the main line, ARTICLE V. The treaties above-mentioned shall not have any other ob ject than the repression of the slave trade. If one of the said treaties be concluded separately, by an officer of the British Marine, the choice ( faeulte) of acceding to it shall be re served to his Majesty the King of the French, the same choice shall be reserved to her Majesty the Queen •f Great Britain in all the treaties which shall be concluded by an officer of the French marine. In this case, where his Majesty the King of the French and her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain will both become parties in the conclusion of said treaties, the requisite expenses for presents and similar costs shall be supported by both nations. - ARTICLE VI. In case where for the execution of said treaties and con formity to the law of nations, the employment of force by land or by sea shall become necessary, neither of the contracting parties shall have recourse thereto without the consent and con currence of the oiler. ARTICLE VII. The moment the squadron of his Majesty the King of the French shall be r e ady to commence operations upon the coast of Africa, the King of the French will notify it to this Queen of Great Britain, and the two contracting parties will make known by a public declaration that the present convention is upon the point of being put into execution. The said declaration - ;rill be expedited whenever it will be necessary (on besoin sera). In the three following months the right of mutual search established by the conventions of 1831 and In 3, shall cease to be exercised, and the Commissioners' mandates delivered to the cruisers of both nations shall respectively be retained restitut's. ARTICLE, VIII. Seeing that experience has proved ►,hat the slave-trade in those parts where it is habitually exercised isoften accompanied by deeds of a dangerous nature, for the tranquillity of the seas and the safety of the flag, and, considering at the same time that if the flag borne by a ship is prima fade the sign of nationality of the ship, this presumption will not be regarded as sufficient to prevent in all cases proceeding to its verification, otherwise it would expose all flags to dishonouring abuses in making them serve to cover piracy, the slave-trade, and all other illicit traffic In order to prevent all difficulty in the execution of the present Convention, it is understood that instructions, founded upon the law of nations, and upon the constant practice of maritime powers, shall be addressed to the commanders of squadrons and cruisers upon the coast of Africa. The two Governments have, in consequence, c - nnmunicated to each other the text of the said lust' uctions, which are annexed to the present Convention. ARTICLE IX. His Majesty the King of the French and her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain engage themselves reciprocally to in terdict all slave trade in the colonies that they possess, or shall in future possess, and to prevent by all means in their power their subjects from using their flag for carrying on the slave trade with foreign nations, or to engage in any way in the said slave trade. --- I Namur and Liege Orleans and Bordeaux... 2 ...... 111 10% 11 1 ,4 1 , ) . i Over Yssel 41 38 4d Paris & Lyons, Lallitte's 2 Paris and Lyons, Gan neron's, ... - 4 Paris and Rouen /2 .. I 2 Paris and Strasbourg (Ganneron's) Royal North of Sp ain ... 2 Sambre and Meuse ~... 4 IMPERIAL PA ItLIAMEN - T. HOUSE OF LORDS, May 30. Their Lordships met at Five o'clock. MAYNOOTH. The Duke of CAMBRIDGE presented a similar petition from the Foundling Hospital, and supported its prayer. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from mem bers of the Free Church of Scotland against the gratt to May nooth. Lord FITZHARI)ING also presented petitions against the grant. LORD CAMPBELL presented a petition from Dudley. complaining of the working of the 201. clause in the Debtors' Bill, and praying its reconsideration. LORD CLARE presented a petition from Limerick in favour of the grant to alaynooth, and LORD RODEN presented petitions frcm Armagh, Maiden head, Guernsey, Windsor, Gravesend, Belfast, the counties of Down and Leitrim, and various other districts. The LORD CHANCELLOR presented several petitions from Ireland in favour of the grant to Maynooth. Lord KINNAIRD presented a petition against the grant from a body of pet sons who were opposed to State endowments. The ilishop of St. DAVID'S presented petitions against the grant, and regretted he could nut agree with the prayer of the petitioners. The Earl of ELDON presented several petitions to the same effect. The Earl of WINCHILSEA presented forty-seven peti tions of a similar nature. The Bishop of CASHFL presented petitions from severa places in Ireland against the increased grant to Maynooth. The Bishop of BANGOtt also presented a petition against the grant to Maynooth. The Bishop of ST. A SANT presented a petition agains` the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. Lord COTTEN HAM presented a petition against the grant to Maynooth. The Bishop of LLANDAFF presented a petition against the grant to Maynooth, and expressed his concurrence in the prayer. The Archbishop of CANTERSUKY and the Bishop of Lost box presented similar petitions from numerous places. The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from Clifton, St. Clete, Kingsbridge, and various other towns in Cornwall and Devon, against the grant to llla3•north. The Marquis of 13It EA DAL BANE presented 168 petitions, signed by 22,256 individuals, from various f arts of England and Scotland, against the grant to Maynooth. The Earl of DE s, ON presented several petitions from Stockport, Bolton, 31anelester, and other places in the north of England, in favour 0. the Calico Print Works Bill. Lord PORTMAN presented a petition, praying the pro ceeds of the incom , --tax to be applied to the support of the poor. - Lord DACRE brought in a Bill upon the game-laws. and moved that the second reading be taken on Monday fcrtnight. Lord BROUGHAM, in reply to a question from Lnrd Ash burton, said that he would take the second reading of the Bill to amend the Insolvent Debtors' Act of last year, espe cially in respect to the 201. clause, now, and wait :or a further stage any discussion upon its merits. 'l'he LORD CIiANCELLOR thought that the Bill should be read before any further proceedings were taken. CALICO PRINT WORKS BILL. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM moved the order of the da y for the second reading of the Calico Print Works Bill. Lord BR OUG HAM protested against their proceeding, year after year. to legislate in a wrong direction. They were doing all they could, by their legislation, to injure the working classes. They were treating them, in fact, with great cruelty, under the guise, false garb, and outside of humanity. It wa , held, by those in favour of the Bill, that if a man worked at night he did not perform his task so well as if it were performed during the day ; it was, therefore, not intended so much to re- lieve young persons, children, and females—which was a very humane, reasonable, and judicious measure—as to mate the work in which they were engaged better—to make the patterns better and more accurate than those produced in the ordinary hours of work. He took the same objection to this Bib as he did to the former one. In the preamble, which set forth that it w as expedient to limit the hours 6f labour of children, young persons, and children in factories, he would substitute for the word expedient, "inexpedient," as he considered it inexpedient to regulate the hours which thepeopleshould labour, and that it would be better for the Legislature to regulate its own business and to let other people's alone, especially where their inter ference was not, justifiable. abour was the capital of the workmen, and it was contrary to justice and sound policy to interfere with what ought to be left entirely free. It must not be supposed that by preventing children working after n'ne o'clock at night, they alone stopped the labour of the children, both men and masters were equally ret.rded, and the greatest abuses wouid be incurred. He objected to the Bill generally, on principle, but the part. which he considered chiefly ob noxious was the interference with female labour. If humanity were to be the order of the day, he .would ask, why did they allow painters to meddle with white lead, which reduced them to paralytics—steel-workers to pursue a trade from which con sumption supervened —or horse-jockeys to lay up for them selves the most noxious diseases, in order to contribute to the pleasures of those humanity-hunters. The Bill he considered tenacious m principle, and, as Bw:h. should protest against it. The Marquis of NORMANDY thought every dictate of humanity, morality, and experience contradicted the argu• merits of his Noble Friend, who, with his accustomed ability. had opposed the Bill. lhe testimony of both masters and workmen had been satisfactorily evinced as unequivocally favourable to the measure. Peti!ions had been laid on their Lordships' table from every class of factory labourer and pro prietors, praying for the interposition of the Legislature, and to confirm the views of these whet itative parties, he would refer to the report of Mr. Tremelier, in which tt.e ben( fits that had accrued to the female colliery miners had been ably and satis factorily established. The Earl of RADNOR concurred with his Learned Friend (Lord Brougham) in protesting sgsinst the constant meddling of the Legislature with the private affairs of the people. The system now to be interfered with bad existed with advantage to the factory population, and he foresaw nothing but evil in attempting to change it. Lord CAMPBELL agreed with the general principle of tl e Bill, but considered the second clause as unnecessary, :f not prejudicial. There was no analogy between the cases of col liery female labourers and those working in factories. The former custom was productive of immorality, but the latter of industry. A woman of forty years of age, with a large family, would, be conceived, devote the hours from which she was eve, debarred, to the discharge of her duties as a wife and moth, r. Nevertheless, he regarded the principle of the measure as sound, and its enactments beneficial, and should give it its cordial support. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH wondered that the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Brougham), after assenting to the preamble of a similar Bill in 1833, should now enter his violent opposition to this measure. He had heard nothing in the course of the discussion to change his views, and should, therefore, move that the Bill be now committed. Lord BROUGHAM explained that in 1833 he had agrccd to the general principle of the measure, apart from the inter ference with female labour. The Bill then went into Committee, and after receiving a few verbal amendments was reported. POST-OFFICE REGULATIONS. On the'motion for the seeond reading of the Post-office Regu lations Bill, Lord RADNOR expressed his entire concurrence in the pr;n ciple of the measure—a measure which had been rendered the. more necessary, by the unseemly disclosures made last session of a system as unjustifiable as it was disgraceful. Nobotl% really knew what the law of the case was. Some thought the right of stopping letters was vested in the Crown. But he was never able to ascertain that it 'was any part of the ptero2a tive of the Crown to open the letters of individuals. It ,uch was the prerogative of the Crown it must have been a pra , t,ve as ancient as the establishment of the Post-office itself ; but be never knew that it was authorised by any court of law. It was a secret mode of proceeding, and therefore no one could set about disputing it, for no one knew when it was practised. Ile could not help also remarking on the immorality of the prac tice. He was not one of those who believed that the State had a conscience, though there were some who kindly gave them credit for one. It was, he contended, a betrayal of confidence. They obliged the public to use the Post-office, and that being the case, they should guarantee inviolability to anything com mitted to it. The copying of Mazzini's seals was most disreputable. It was a farce to talk of the morality of the State after that. But if anything was necessary to prove the danger and immo rality of the practice, it was the case of the letter-carriers, who had merely copied the example which bad been set them by their betters, and had merely been dismissed without any further punishment being inflicted. He spoke from the re ports only which he read in the newspapers of the circumstance, but he believed they were correct. 11y a reference to the Acts. the 9th of Queen Anne, and the Ist of her present Majesty, he found that the power of issuing warrants for detaining and opening letters was assumed as vested already, rather than granted, to the Lore-Lieutenant of Ireland and the Secretary of State for England. The power of indemnifying the Post master-general for obeying these warrants was merely given by the Acts ; but that was a very different thing from eiving authority to the Secretary of State to exercise such powers. If the question were tried in a court of law, he had no doubt but it would be found that no such Dower existed. Whether the mode new proposed to re medy this state of things met with the approval of their Lordships it was not for him to say, but if they ac ceded to the main features of it, It would be very easy in Com mittee to regulate the details of the Bill. The Noble Lord then read extracts from the reports of the Committees in both Houses which had been appointed to inquire into the practice of opening and detaining letters, and commented upon them as he proceeded. There were two lists of warrants issued from the Home-office. In the first:list, embracing a period of 86 years, from 1712 to 1798, one hundred and one warrants had been issued. In the other, from 1799 to 1844, comprising a period of forty-five years, three hundred and seventy-two warrants had been issued. Now, that was, he considered, very remarkable. In the first period there had been an annual in crease of per cent., and in the otherofB re p l e an per cent. to nt.Ot these eight, moreover, only two were warr ants sedi tion. The rest were crim inal warrants, in r espect to public feeling was not much enlisted as they p resente d the w l h e i a e s i t i temptation to abuse. Lord STANLEY felt it to be his public duty to oppose the Bill. The Noble Earl had proposed to himself two offices. w ri h h e first e w s a s e e t r o define e ta e ry n n e f the t l a e w s h a n n u d define td have t i t i h e e p conditions of under opening en ina er detaining letters at the Post-office. The second office was to alter the law in such a manner as to impose new restrictions upon the exercise of the power. Now, he would venture to say that the Noble Lord, when he attempted to define the law, left the law just as undefined as he found it. He also imposed restriction on the exercise of the power, which restriction ab solutely rendered the law itself imperative. Now there wee I no political cousiderations connected with this question, it only tended to modify, instead of abolishing the power; for all they had to discuss was simply whether it was necessary to confer on the Secretary of State the po wer o f d eta i n i ng or opening letters at the Post-nflice. It was admitted by the Noble Eat I called that ltlehdteh hands e up p o o n w e nt r of , u t e t q l c u t s . i re c ec e r r ei t n a t s i n wr yh t a i n r t c f u ms m at s an t t a n; c e n r estb, but a m t up theys o t w s e t wr i still be lets e co re uld no b w e amended or todifitd. Now he (Lord Stanley) would re.t enter into a discussion as to the origin of this power, nor would he venture to hay that the power was one of the prero gatives of the Crown ; but this he did say, that the Act of Anne was not the Act which gave the power to the Secretary of State. The Act of Anne was the first Act which made it a misdemeanour, and rendered persons liable to a penalty fcr opening a letter passing through the Post-office, without the warrant of one of her Majesty's prin cipal Secretaries of State. Previous to that Act no criminal proceedings could be taken against any person for detaining or opening any letter passing through the Post-office, but that Act made it a punishable offence to open any letters without the person had a warrant from the Seers.- tary of State giving him full authority to do so. Ile had read with great attention the Bill of the Noble Earl, and certainty its provisions appeared to him to be moat unsati,factory. The ARTICLE X. Six months after the declaration mentioned in Art. 7, the present Convention shall enter upon course of execution. It is concluded for ten years. The anterior Convention shall be suspended. In the course of the fifth year, the high contracting Powers shall concert anew, and will decide according to circumstances, if it be suitable, either to put again in execution all or part of such conventions; whether to modify or abrogate all or part of the new con vention. At the end of the tenth year, if the Anterior Conventions have not been again put in execution, they shall be considered as abrogated (a la fin de la dixieme annee si les convocations anterieures n'ont pas et e remises en vigour elles seront consider& comme abrogees). The two high contracting parties engage besides to continue an understanding for assuring the suppression of the slave trade by all such means as shall appear to them the most useful and efficacious, until the moment when this traffic shall have been completely abolished. rHE FUNDS-(CLOSING PRICES). ONE PRICES OF IIRITISZI FUNDS. O'CLOCK. 3 per Cent. Reduced 9B VA 3 per Cent. Consols New 3 1 / t per Cents .lO l l / 4;i Long Annuities to expire Jan. 1860 1136 Ditto 30 years, Oct. 10, 1859... Ditto 30 years, Jan. 5, 1860 ... 11 9-16 India Stock India Bonds, 1,0001 - - Ditto under 1,0001. .. ...... .- 7O 73 73 Consols for Account... • • ••• 99 3i 99% Exchequer Bills, 1,0004, 11id.... GO 62 pm. 62 Ditto 500/. . Ditto Small Ditto Advertised 57 59 pin. 59 CLOSES PRICES 98% 99% 101% 11% 114 11 9-i6 280 70 ONE FRICES OF FOREIGN FUNDS. O'CLOCK. Chilian Bonds 6 per Cent.— • 9 8 1,1 Columbian Bonds, ex Venezuela 15% Mexican, 5 per Cent. 1837 Ditto, Account — Ditto Deferred Portuguese Bonds, 5 per Cent Ditto, Converted 6 6 14 66 1.4 Ditto, Account 66% 67 67 Spanish 5 per Cent. 1840. Ditto Account Ditto, Passive Ditto 3 per Cent. Ditto, Account is 42% Dutch, 2% par Cent . Ditto, 4 per Cent., Certific 98%% 98% PRICES OF CLOSING PAID. .A ONE O'CLOCK. RAILWAY SHARES PRICES Aberdeen Armagh, Coleraine, and Portrush l% 2%% Birming. and Gloucesterloo Do. New Birmingham and Ox ford Junction Bri'ton, Lewes, & Hast. 20 Bristol and Exeter Do. New .... . ......... 2 ...... 9 8% Bristol and Gloucester... 30 ....... 59 Caledonian Ditto Extension ...... 2%...... 3 Cambridge and Lincoln 1% ...... 7% 5 ,0 4 Chester and Holyhead... 15 Churnet Valley Cork and Waterford ... 1 1 ,4 214 Coventry, Bedworth, and Nuneaton Coventry and Leicester 1 1 4 l% Cornwall Diss, Beccles, Yarmouth 11 / 2% .• .... Direct Northern Dublin and Belfast J unc. 2% lO% 11 Dublin and Galway..... 21 ,4 — Eastern Counties 25 ...... 18% 19 1 4% ... Ditto New 41. 16s. _ . CLOSING PRICES. 98% 154 Ditto Perpetual, 5 per Cent, No. 1....51.135. 4d — Ditto ditto, No. 2. l3s. 4d 0%.. Eastern Union Ditto Extension . 1% 2%. Edinburgh and Glasgow 50 , Ditto New V I Shares... 2% — Great South. and West. 37% 17% (Ireland) Ditto Extension Great Munster 2 12 2% Great North of England..loo 255 Ditto New 5 67% 66% Ditto New 2 34% 36 Great Western BO 202 210 Ditto 1 / 2 Shares 5O ll4 Ditto, Fifths Guildford, Fare'm, Ports. 2 1 / 2 — Hull and Selby 5O ... 109 107 ...... .. Do. Half Shares Lancaster and Carlisle... 20 London and Birmilsghm (5t0ck)...247 Do. New Thirds Do. 4 Shares London and Blackwell. 161.13 x. 4d. 9%14 London and Bright0n... 50 London and Croydon, 13/. 15s. 9d 18%% 19 Do. New 133 4d l% London and S. Western 411 6a 10d 82 81% 84 83 Do. New London and York 2% 4% 414 Londonderry &Coleraine 2% .. 3 3,4% Londonderry and Ennis killen ... 2% 5 14 5 Lynn and Ely Lynn and Dereham IN 2% Manchester and Leeds... 73 Do. Quarters Manchester and Birmin. 40 Midland 100 .lBB 189 187 Do. New Midland,Birm., Derby...loo Newark and Sheffield .. 114 - ..... ..... . . . . Newcastle and Darling ton Junction 25 ...... 55 ...... ... .. Do. New Brandling Newrastle and Berwick 1 1 ,4 17% % 18% ... North British ......... 12 1 4;25 1 4, 25 26 25% 26% Do. New Northern and Eastern... 45 Do. Scrip Do. Quarter Shares... 12 1 4 l Bl4 North Kent ... 2 4 /, 1 .. .. 65% 64 North Wales Norwich and Brandon... 10 Do., New ... ..... ..... 1 .. Scottish Central Shrews., Wolverhamp., Dudley, and Birm 2% . .... 5 1 4 South Devon l 5 South Eastern & Dover 33/ 2s 4d... 45 444 45 Do., No. 1..• 8 Do., No. 2. - 1534 % 16% ... Do., No. 3 South Wales 2 1,4 6% I A Trent Valley 2 Trent Valley and Holy head Junction Yarmouth and Norwich. 20 York and North Midland 50 llB 116 117% .. Do. 1 / 2 Shares Ditto Scarboro' Branch. 25 Do. Selby Do. Extension FRENCH RAILWAYS. Boulogne and Amiens... 4 Bordeaux and Toulouse 2 Bordeaux, Toulouse, and Cette ...... ....... ..... 2 Dijon and Mulhouse ... 2 Great North. of France.. 4 .. ............ Do. do. (Rosamel's) 2 Great Paris and Lyons 2 - 14% 33 3 / 4 7% 23 1 4 13 1 A 2 1 A, 255 66% 36 210 113 54 107 25 1 A 44% 250 47 36% 9% 68% 19 22 59% 189 28 1 h 150 43/4 18 1 4 26i / . 2 71, 17 161 B'y 44 184/i 2% 28 115 56 72 1 4 . 2'24 cause defining the law made no allusion wh a t ever t o th e ques i I in of special or general warrants, and certainly after the doubts which had been raised upon this point the Noble I ail ought to have sated, clearly and distinctly, whether it was necessary that a general or a special warrant should he issued. It had been admitted by the Lord Chief Justice that general ae ants could only be used except where a system of espio nage was carried on by the Government, and he asked the House whether they were willing to establish such a system as this, in preference to at once defining distinctly and clearly whether a special or a oeneral warrant should be used. Now, let them look to the second clause, but before directing atter - es rio t s to that part he must protest against the doctrine laid down by the Noble Earl, that although the House might have to alter every word of the Bill, yet if they agreed with the prin eiple it enumerated they ought to support the second reading. tti 11, then, the second clause (emoted that in ease any credi ble information should be given to the Secretary of State, ;hat the safety of the Sovereign or the Government was likely •o be endangered, or the peace of the country likely to be dis turbed. it shall be lawful for the Secretary of State to issue liis warrant for the detention or opening of letters, &c. Now, lie was at a loss to understand the real meaning of this clause. Information was to be given to the Secretary of State? Nt hat information? Ought it not to be, If ieformatien shall be :riven to the Secretary of State of the acts and teoceedings of cry person or persons likely to en; anger the peace of the Calm; ry, then, &c." The Earl of RADNOR—We can alter that in Committee. Lord STANLEY—Of course they might, but he was dis cussing the Bill as it stood, arid not a Bill which some other Nonle Lord might subsequently bring in.—( liver, hear.) Ile c• Wet not agree with the doss, me that the safety of the Go es rnment, or pea c e or seeu •i ty o f t h e realm were the only con siderations which should re user it necessary or expedient that poser should be applied. The Noble Earl exchaled si ineether the majority a the cases where the exercise of this pincer was necessary for the detection or punishment of crime. —( Hear, hear.) But what did the Noble Earl mean by the I e.ce or security of the realm ? Did he mein the internal peace, or the danger of involving this country in foreign war ? Now he would not conceal his opinion upon this tart of the glestion, and although a great deal had been said about the tights of hospitality in tbis country, he did nit think, tinder existing circumstances, that a foreigner should be allowed to use our Post-office for disturbing the peace of foreign S ates, and thus involving thia country in a fereign war? V. hen the Noble Lord said that the information must be signed, he evinced an ignorance of the spirit of the original en eetment, which disentitled his counsel to all weight or cons:- leration. Why, a more effectual mode coull not be adopted ler preventing the forwarding of all, except perhaps anonye moo., cemmunicatiors. With respect to the provision of sendir e ; back the letter with a mark tha it had been opened. a more absurd propositi •n could not he advanced. It would teed to give a clue to the operations of Government, frustrate the attire as well as the spirit of the power previous 4 eenceded, and tender r.ugatory the best efforts of the State. As to the pate islou for allowing the party whose letter had been opened to le ire e his action at law for d amages , an d requ i r i ng the Sect,- tit. % or Lord-Lieutenant to give up the information, or a cer tia, d eery of it, would be ineffectual to repress any abuse, and be ught only with difficulties and absurdities. He would suppose a wrone letter opened by mistake, an invitation to dime r, a tailor's bill, or other communication equally unim- I ortent.—( A laugh.) Well, the Postmaster was to notify that the let or had been opened by warrant of the Secretary, and that no necessity existed for its further detention. The Secre ts! y wits to give up the information, together with the name of the informant, and the convivial friend er the tailor allowed to bring his tuition for the violation of his secret.--(Laughter. ) lie admitted that the power vested in the Secretary of era , e was obnoxious and open to unquestionable abuse, Luz. he thought, also, there was a sufficient security in the character of the country, und in the honour of the individual 3lenthers of both parties in Parliament. Relying on this as surance, and wholly doubting the expediency of the Noble East's 1 reposition, he should move that the reading of the Bill be piss:par d till that day six months. Lord DENMAN considered that the measure was of too vast importance, both as regarded the interests of the com munity anti the character of that House, to have beets dealt with in the flippant manner adopted by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies. He would not pursue that course, nor adopt the see-saw opinions contained in the report of the Select Committee—a report evincing only the different siews of each individual member. In 1657 the Post-office was first established, and in the 12th of Charles If. the same in stitution was placed on a more satisfactory basis; but it wss not till the reign of Anne that a provision was made for the delivery of letters in the universal method subsequently adopted. He had heard with surprise the Noble Lord state that the detached suggestions which he had thrown out when the subject was first brought before Parliament were to be received as the opinions of the Chief Justice. A Noble Lord doubted whether every letter which was to be opened ought not to be described. Why, it was absurd that every letter could be yointed out ; it was likely that instead of the particular letter being at once discovered, others might be opened. Was he, therefore, to be held up as a patron of espionage, because he gave that view of the subject—bee-seise he said that letters might be opened under the Act of Parlia ment, the powers contained in which he condemned as incon sistent with the liberty of the people, and which was intended to cever State delinquencies.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted, theretee, that the Noble Lord, who could not have heard the del tees which had taken place in that House on the foubject, would not attribute to hint that he was an advocate of the sys tem of opening letters. It was not fair thus to deal with any , one holding the public office he did, and who, of all men, de tested the practice—Olga/I—an odious and hateful practice which the feelings of all men must especially condemn. Beture they came to a decision it would be welt to consider Whitt would be the course which juries would adopt with respect to the question of opening letters. They were apt to be car ried away by their feelings. The Secretary of State for the Home Department had stated in the House of Commons that he had no objection to their regulating the power which the Act gave him over letters passing through the Post -office. He (Sir J. Graham) treated the trowel' as a most odious one, and one which he would wish to get rid of. Then, why should not the practice be an the hands of Parliament if it was to be exer • cised at all ? In the time of Charles 11., no Act was in force giving the Government this power, but a declaration was issue/ le, the King, giving his Government the power to open th It tar of letters of an individual passing through the Post-office. When that Monarch was carousing with his courtiers, nothing could he more entertainitee than to open the letters of the nobility and gentry. But be did net think it was fair to invest the power of opening letters in the present day in the hands of an officer of the Crown, ovce evt ry other individual in the land. It was a calumny upon them hat such a subject should have been so frequently brought; forward. They had all felt ashamed of the disgraceful pro. ceedings which were carried on under the system.—( Hear.) Mazzini only discovered by an accident that his letters had been opened. Had he not made this discovery, it was not uts lit ly that it might have remained in secrecy for a number of years. One hundred years back the power might be rendered available for the purposes of obstructing an election, or of de feating by secret means the Government then in power. From, the memeirs of Lord illalmsbury it appeared thst the practice teas then in use. In a letter from Mr. Canning to that noblemsn, he expiessed his surprise that his letters had been opened. Mr. Fox, writing at _the commencement o f t h e French war, said he should have !iii" letters directed by an other hand, and sealed with another seal, as they would be opened at the Post-sffice. The same expressions were made use of by Mr. Burke and Horace Walpole. In the work to which he had alluded, it was stated, that the Minister of Catherise 11., of Russia, was in the habit of writing letters with various signatures, which he knew would be opened at the Post office, and which would h ave t h e effect of injuring his enemies and serving his friends. But he (Lord Denman t conceived that the power in this country was utterly useless, and derogatory to the high character of the natien.—( Hear, hear.) The Committees which had been appointed to eon rider the subject, had not reported as to any benefits which were derived from the practice. Information so obtained was likely to be fallacious, and they were liable to fall into their own snares. So almost invariably was information obtained from spies, and the money paid to them fur their information was as invariably thrown away.—(Hear, hear.) He therefore called upon them to assent to the second reading of the Bill which his Noble Friend had introduced. God forbid that the scenes of 1842 should be ever again re peated. They had not, however, been met or put down by the system which had been resorted to of opening and detaining the letters of those who were supposed to be implicated in those disturbances. The unhappy men who were engaged in them were defeated by the firmness of the Government, the temperance of the police, and the good spirit of the coun try. The present Bill might be open to great objections, but it would prevent many of the abuses which had sprung up, during the existence of the system. Ii it would only put an end to the hateful practice of interfering in the concerns of foreign Governments it would havea beneficial effect. It would confine the system to our own country. He did net see why they should lend themselves as police officers for other States.— ( ear,hear .) Hear, had no doubt but th e N o bl e Lord opposite had been influenced by the best intenti ons i n the course he had adopted ; but when he heard some people. state that there was no great harm even if the individuals on account of whom the letters had been opened were shot, he thought their interference was extremely dangerous. On the same grounds, the Pope, the King of Niples, France, and the Emperor of Russia, might claim their interference. They might even by this means be playing into the hands of their enemies, and betraying the interests of the country ; for in Spain and Portugal it was not easy to knot who was in pos session of power. He did not believe that Sir Robert Peel, even, would forget the cheers which accompanied the announce ment that the Alien Act was gone. He did not apprehend teat it was necessary to ei ter into any defence of the motives which influenced the present Secretaries of State, but they ought not to forget that very unprincipled men were once Ministers of State in England, and such men might again be in office. Even if they did riot abuse their trust they had suffff cient evidence during the summer months, in the affair of the Derby stakes, that their underlings would do so. Frem th e report o f an eminent individual, with respect to the individ ua l s employed in the Post-office, such persons were not proof against the temptations which ware thrown in their way, and the ex perience which he himself had enabled him to confirm that statement. The year 1844 was memorable as being the first year w hen letters were opened for a foreign St ate . I t was ls existence nighter t w h i c h and his s cr i mes had bee been adprovoked, haunted bNsyebethlheaaarPeLaPeerrhtr e oed i :s r a perfectly new and extremely dangerous practice_ a thin g ut terly unknown to the people of England. He himself had not known that there was any statute on the subject till after con siderable difficulty he found that Oliver Cromwell had been the originator of it. It was to this brutal and hypocritical tyrant, victories further nau ne4aair nleilihtirsuotp d o oun p ee ea dh e influenceie, c u re n r hn o - o E s tn ro n x n g e e x l l i o l i s:h an p d rac h t o i p ee ed w a s ttohebeNtorbalceeDd.ukeT, wheho twooduelteltrsorygna titseehhis then read extracts from liume, descriptive 'of the charact er had in every respect presented such a contrast, every signalise of t s' et h re o e se r still f m or t to eadtd.outotoltihoawtetoero.—of. lish for ever so disgraceful and unconstitutional p an °. mea sures(llear'i; w hich ' had H lat e el w y o b u e ld en Ireland, a measure which would put an end to en to this abominable practice. Lord BROUGHAM did not concur in the severe attack which had been made on the character of Cromwell. He con tended that, with all his faults and failings, be had proposed i.nd effected many salutary commercial changes. The Noble Lord had also been guilty of a misdemeanour, he had ietroduced the seria ntista jocis, and alluded to the correspondence of Gramont, in the times of Charles 11., the Merry Monarch. Ilis Noble and Learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice had made three charges against the Secret Committee, which lately sat upon the Post-office. The first was, that the Committee in their report had not defined the state of the law on t his subject. Now he found, by the first page of the re p/To that the power had existed ever since the establishment of the het-office, and had frequently been recognised, and this he thought was a sufficient charge. The second charge was, that the Ceinmittee had specified or suggested no remedy or refor mation whatever in the la x . All the Committee thought it was better to leave it for the Legislature to determine what alterations should be made in the law. The third charge was that the Committee did not state what had been the utility of the power. Now, in answer to this charge, he could only state that, in one part of the report the Committee said that the exercise of the power had frequently led to detection and punishment or crime, as well as to the recovery of iroperty. With regard to the Rill itself, he entirely concurred in what had fallen from the Noble Lord opposite, who had certainly made a most admir able, and, he might add, a strictly legal speech against the measure. Lori CAMPBELL liter thought, a few years age, that toe hould have had occasion to (Wend his Noble Friend- the Chief