The Sun. — London, England, 1850-03-12 00:00:00

1 , 4 , at ~c~ ;Ile,/",(. 67.6; Je.maice, .18.3, average 66.9; Gib -11.1; .M.sitl, 30.1, a verage 15.1; 1 t27 . ,"'"( 1, , 23 I, arcrage IS 5; B. raevia, 8.4. ever otewforintlland, 10.3, over ace 9.1; Nova Scotia 11 :utts Nick, 19.7, a;Ti age 13.0; Cattatla, 15.6, 'key 12 . 6 ; luta, 8.1, average 15.4; Cape 0: I leN,' . l ) ", 13.3, arerege 12 9; the Matiri;ius, 14.6, ~l ' etaa , 2 ; 13 ; Cry 100, 21.5, average 41,1; Mad , as, 22.4, /441; ( F 1 21) years 76.1; 11')ngal (the re:uril from this i tt 7; 7 'n• the year ( siding Merch 31, IS4S), 61 3, c' aver- S T4 I naulhey, 9 6 6, alertige 62 5; New Seuth ep,` l,l New Z et a te d , 8 3 , aver age o f 10 y ea r s 11.0 ; ,ee'ele l arri's Land, 9 6, average 14.0. In consequence r aiia it nprovem c nt..; in the West Indica the troops k i ,:uf there W C re now tie healtlty as in any other of Pod tar brations._(ll,.. ar , hear.) Now, v‘ith re 'Ulan the sYstein of education for the army, it had been i,lacarry o u t te e p l an w hi c h h a d lite') previou , ly w!th gre are and skill by his predecessor kl, f ;• The :rats quarterly returns showed hat in 18 cehools, that system was flJurit•litegt, and that who attended th e m we- i s 2 289 non-cona- Npr" ofil?rs.-(llear, hear.) When that system t ', fl i Perly m a t ure d , he belkvtd that a liettt.r (-ducat 11 I tO e „ Wen wool i not be found a ,y where than chess I t -It. a il °• •eal her M a y sty' s army.-( le ar.) ~"'1 1,1 a.'",1 1 to lea able to say that she Cumenande.r-in teqs rbte:nlitottl in applying he satne system to , 14 11 g 7,`,. 1 class of the army, I. r nothing could more Ll'tr v ; „‘' l l'l to diolinish that respect whirl) it was nc in0t74,14% the s shoold entertain toe ards his su 'olll'"l,er than the =t .e that the soldier l l decor= truce I°4 hoes 1 to be cup rior in point of knowledge tietr.,uee-ior effiear.-(llear, hear.) The Cem '44 f, th ere f ore , wou ll insist th a t every 14 ° aid undergo an examination bett,ro htl entered it Y' in du. ) and n o t v e ry di s t an t time he hoped ' . 1) 1 .,„ 4 ' 4 ti0n w ou ld b e more widely app li e d, so d th a t twatwould he promoted to the reek of captain 44 1 e tul `lerg.ing a second examination. lie had now ,titiee" grounds on which he thought 99,128 men o c ,, e 'al'Y for the service of the country. Ile had "p, " : - '''"d to show th a t th e c h arge f or the erfectiee A ° t f 'fac:tit - 3 service had been duly e teended to in ? ,tlip,"'° llo my. Ile had shown what had been done l e ap, NV with respect to dnxipiine, health, and c du eptjt' he tell the House, on authority which hu h te ed to respect and cr e dit f rom the House, when A l h'tireoria with regard to the discipline of an 4 1t ass to both officers and men the British army ttate of which the country might well be proud; , tl t l le k a ' Prepared tat all points to meet the enemy, land men time had every disposition, at all times and to live in peace arid harmony and good ; th e P with its fellow-citizens in every part, not only l ''ltio e p t i °ll , Elt rY, but in the exteneive coloairs which ap -I,opot':°,_it•-(Clieer.) 4. 111 „" . oaring teen put, ME said that be most heartily concurred in I),'"'„ u ding portion ( f his Right Hon. Friend's 140" was happy to find tha: so much l.al been • ile4arrarante the discipline, the health, and cducation j (I ,Y.-(Elear hear.) It was a great satisfaction , 1 01; pd ~.."'° had so long contended for the abolition of t 7 ,111 the army, that a different system had been 1)a1 ;,;lteiat‘°lk so well, and to be a tt en d e d w ith s o muc h ';'• Ile had heard from the present distiu -111tulltaitler-in-Coi4 that the number of lashes tt a ° ll a time should now be limite-1 to 50, and it tatisfaction t have heard him say that even tqb ` r h in d (EC hear.) t time be rc uce ea , ~'p gl'd tb • better barrack accommodation had a 4 1" s " P "d for the soldiers. He never sail the pay of At tt '- 'i s l3 ,_ t ,offieer s was too high. The only difference ,iatieun between him and his Right lion. Friend litt c j i the numbers of the army. In 1828 the actual I ,:ereaue raised was 15,500,0004 But in con e great outcry being raised against the • i t itta l ;" . that time, a Committee was appointed, and „: 5 414 to the extent of 5,000,0001. were effected he 5 • In that year the revenue was 50,000,0001., 14 1 . 3 sorry to ray that since that time la i ncreased the expenditure, except during , •4 t ,, ittte is years. lie maintained, however, that t tlip r , no necessity for the increase during the in ; t tite;Y e ars, They had not yet heard the financial ttof tl, ol the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chan ' '2l) Exch-quer, but he thought he might take i. l • 4 tl b (l ittire for - the ' present year, allowing for reclue ''bliteeetwans 50,000,0001. and 51,000,000/. There atat;: e way of reducing the expenses of the army, "triii" 4 s by reducing the number of men. The va- A it at . Y and naval Committees that had sat up to I,,,lei te r eeent period had invariably been recona ta'l,e,';',,refer to the model of 1792, in the time of •"ta a 0, as a means of enabling the country to character, and be provided with a full ex- A, to , s. Produce the sinews of war whenever events litter such a measu r e necessar y. I ns te a d o f 4siti () of th e the e x p en dit ure an d h us b an di ng th e ir re that way, they had been not only expending i t Yea the revenue, but within the last ten or ' , th e v ra they had added no less than 40,0:10,0001. to tlr ttli ' l bo Count r y. H ere was no l e ss than 13,000 'ttp, Inarease which 1-al been accounted for in eon ,•lsh,! the rebellion in Canada. Tee rebellion was Vai,er were net the men gone too ?-(Hear, hear.) a t ' e d that in the year 1835-6 the Dumber of was 80,000; in 1847 it had increased to lt he .. ' B4B , matters not being e et settled in Ca ,l'ldearistiznher of troops bad been increased to 93,000. la t 4" °0 (1 that two-thirds of the troops were kept al relief.and therefore it was that he and eare, o ,, e _ p yt ``, r anl Members hid supported . the . proposi . - leadaolisheig colonial corps, believing that it t ° a considerabie reduction. In 1846 thethe men voted was 108,000, and in the following 'a l, tll - t n triber was 113,000. He (Mr. Hume) bad op a,and proposed that they should go back to ; ; C lia' n ' and the followine,. year to 95,000. " No," areremeer o we want 113.000 men, because • ' te h it - are some regica(nts sent to India, where , a wa y l t, 4 ,h,,„'' Well, these was peace now in India, eoel not the e 13, 000 men be taken ofl? He s t i adi extra men required were paid for by the q , i4t - s - '`lapany, and therefore he would not refer to ita tih ; but if the Government objected to reducing ' 1g0f,,,r ci f already employed, why not stop re a. O ne year?-(Meer.) He found, from the re kNo -4 the table that every year there were 11,000 I h *oet' 4 , , n enlisted, a nd if they stopped.for one year t'aea something. He came now to the vote for C 01 0 .l 1 , ta3 eaa 99,000 men, and he contended that the ' 4l tsh ' Gentleman hid not stated one single valid ‘i rp po t they should have so large a force. What ! f ,, , q,0 00 `' to the Committee a a-, that thoy should l a 'ata t i a r nen for the present year, and 80,000 for i l tei,,"g Year, which would in his opinion be am ',,,,t4till,;nt for all purposes, wad produce a considera .!i It ii ;" Then there was the promotion system, t l ' l tle t disgrace to their army. lie had hoped to Qile t away with altogether, and the men raised at auk s according to their merit. They were Present upon the mercantile system in the I,, t t tls' ha hell to be entirely wrong. With re ',te,taYs for India, he had no wish to see any re ;!ts,,,,•alaed there longer than ten years. He knew ‘ s ti °llll ent that had been obliged to remain there • e3 s o f than 18 years, and he certainly should not ti nY reduction that would inflict on the army Itp p an 10 y ears ' serv i c e i n I n di a . H e would re bra „lease that in the ye ar 1792 the number ( f 45,292 for England, Ireland, and the colo st.'4lllttY were not probably prepared for such a rc yla e llesent e but it was quite possible by and by, thp, ° l o nies had become their own managers, and elah.'4l.would take upon themselves their own police arrangements - the time he bad no come, although he might not live ahte , ",an th e establishment of 1792 would be found ''tlin„Dte He contended that there was nothing titt4ent circumstances of the country to warrant 'l, 4l Nl: x l are beyond 80,000 men ; no cause had been ‘t,eo il ,`;Pt that of standing well with other conti- Y L se i e ls los, and maintaining a large army because yet) It ussia maintained them. That was not tne had heard such an argument used. It had Y, thn Government when an increase of the td tie it , ;4 '' e rl for on a former occasion, the reason as- Vtta s g that France had done so. He had felt it .9 th e °Pause tbat proposition at the time. Why, were going to fight the battle of Waterloo p i akiTeetaless they were going to fight the battles Attest !bent as they had done before, there could be ',gm,' tor so large a force. Ho thought the addition y. ee e e at et made of 600 millions to their deft by the la d ° old put it out of the power of any 10%1 4 i Govern- • 50 , 0 i t r ouse of Commons to commit so great a ile t f Let the Government give the people the re -011111 L t he reductions they required, and let them "Vla)%' fn. their safety upon the contentment and V i t ki l i c i -e as and loyalty of the people, instead of upon , I tl,l 4 te, Police A large standing army had always \tvriurite doctrine of the Tories, but he never ex ?is ta find it the doctrine of the Whigs. It would iSe t ; t he place where they sat had something infec -,:teta; laugh)-because he could bring from th; Tories of the Noble Lord (J. Russell) ~ o ries in times past not to trust to bayonets ya ti -Plitary establishments, but to depend on the 11 -" good feeling of the people. Now the Noble o: c taall ke y ready to assert that these establishments ,1,44;pt up to maintain the honour and dignity of ~1 0 1;:t : a . 1.• • Ile wished to show how the various pro o'r- the army had been altered. In 1835-6 the .Var i c avalry and household troops was 10,810 it ` l ,ia n ' ll 1 850, 1 9 ,850. The Foot Guards were, in , • !la'te ;; they were now 5,260. The infantry of the 41 1835, 7 9, 722. in the present year they were ,V,Ree t a , ' colonial corps were, in 1835, 5,592; in - I ,3'ear they were 9,988. The eggregate force, ".o, 4 t n ee former period, was 100,990; and . at the .s ,a,ori t jbent it was 125,625. He found that for l i a tiq :14 the V.,number required in 1835 was 23 , 013 ; Clp 4 l .oo o ' ' 33 ,972, being an increase of between 10 , 000 it Inca. For Ireland the number in 1835 was ',l at . a; was now 25,403. For the colonies the Ntie t ; b lB3 s was 36.941; it was now 39,730. The it s ta, then, for Great Britain, Leland, and the q 'l o 1835, 81,971; it was now 99,128, showing akprni: " 11 ,857 men. To make up the entire increase " qstl p r 41 3 nth la, instead of ,720 as in 1835, moment 30,497; 19 but as men, the East India tlll, l r At r l 'd for that additional 10,000 men, he would . Ee g 0 1 them, He contended that the number 11 4 ile kits es ' that that. The people were as contented . saetss a - ,',ahle now as in 1833, and he need not remind Vie, "'at there had been 10,000 pensioners en le:4e t hen -:hat there had been 10,000 enrolled in Q111,:),a; ttalions, end in England and Ireland an ad (ali 'Of ' e e f roe of not leas than 10,000; so here was il l 0 - yajea p ' O OO men over and above the ordinary es 'it‘ll44„-',---(lleer, hear.) In the cavalry alone the might be reduced te seven or eight, and `na• that clone would be in officers, barracks, a s 4 1 ' Why in Austria, which we appeared to be tr „r model in keeping up large military estab -111t)k ter, regiments of the line took the duty of Ala i tt ." o Icing's palace by rotation. They bad 'Wh e ' ti 3', making somewhere about 10 regi- . net reduce them, so as r to make ea o cb regi meet consist of 1,000 men? Lord Palmerston had him self st i Led before the Committee that it would be a mea sure of very gnat economy. When Lord Bexley, in 1822, brought ferwarcl the effective and non-741 ctivc state a the arrny,he stated that by the reduction that would take place in the noe-,lfective strength of the army, they might count upon an ultimate saving of 5,000,0001.; but all the savings in that department were now added to the effec tive strength of the army, so that the people were no gainers. Ile coetended that the public were scandalously used in every point of view by a sy..,tern which main tained double the number of officers really required. In his opinion, it was high time for that House to look to these military establishments, with a view to cutting them down. In the proposition which he was about to make he did not ask them to discharge one soldier. Ail he desired was to stop recruiting. The people of Eug land were weighed down to the ground by the pressure of taxation. In Mary lebene, which was one of the richest parishes in London, he had ascertained that there were 600 war-mats of distress issued for the non-pay ment of the rates. He had not been able as yi t to learn what the number was on account of the assessed taxes. He would, however, move for a return which would give him this inf innetion. Indeed, they ought to hare re turns of all the parishes in England as to the number of warrant; of distress issued both in respect to parochial and what were called King's !axes. They would find by the returns that kith pauperism and crime had been in a great degree prcduc-d by their taxation. They thus took from the working classes the last remnant of property which they pos sessed, and fereed them to be dependent upon the poor rates instead of receiving a contribution from them in support of these esiiblishmente. If they had reduced Cie army to the standard of 1835, they sever would have required the income-tax. In a pamphlet published by a Mr. Normaa lately, thu opinion of Mr. John Stuart Mill was quoted upon this point. That gentleman was made to say that the amount raised by Government in the shape of taxation was for the purpose of affording the Government an opportunity of spending that which other people ought to be allowed to spend. The Go vernment had now a surplus of 2,000,0001., which would enable them to make the reduction asked for with the most perfect security. This was the time for Honour able Members opposite to support him in his propositions for such reduction. If they refused t f do so then he would not listen to any attempt at redaction made by them at a time when there would be no such surplus in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's hands. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government would not be placed in any worse condition if he assented to this reduction. Ills position, on the con trary, would be greatly improved; for he would not be so much bothevel for the distribution of his patronage. for he would have fewer applications. The more money they had to spare the more they were annoyed by the claimants on their bounty. This was an economical country. (Laughter.) He admitted that they had amassed capital, but it was not sufficient to support the heavy weight of taxation which was placed in greater proportion upon the shoulders of the poor nal upon the real capital of the country. He, therefore, begged leave to move that the number 99,000 be altered to 89,000. The question having been put, Major BLACK ALL said it was not in consequence of having been connected with the service he was induced to oppose the amendment. Ho believed that all those who were connected with this service were equally anxious as the Hon. Member fur Montrose to see it conducted with every regard to economy. He had not heard any reason assigned by the Honourahle Member for the proposition he male. The Honourable Member said that he only want to stop re cruiting ; but surely that object, if attained, would not have the effect of reducing the household troops or the cavalry of the United Kingdorn.—(Hear, hear.) Were there any of their colonies in which they could with safety effect a reduction of their troops. In the whole of their North Americau colonies, including Ber muda, their effective force only amounted to about 5,500 men. It they meant to bold their West Indian colonies, surely 3,300 men was not too large a force. In the Cape of Good Hope they had only 2,500 mee ,• in Ceylon 1,000 men; in the Mauritius 1,000 men; Aus tralia, including New Z-'aland, 2,500 men; in Gibraltar 2,500 men; in Malta 1,000 in China 1,000 men. lie did nut see how they could reduce the amount in any of these colonies. The Hon. Gentleman said that the army at home was maintained at its present standard for the purpose of keeping down certain classes. This he denied.—(Hear, hem) He was sure that the conduct of the military could not justify such an assertion. When anything like a rebellion was threatened, the manufac turing classes v ere the very first to call on the military for their active interferenee—(tlear, bear)—and if there was any attempt made to reduce them they would be the very first to grumble. He certainly could not agree to the amendment. Sir W. MOLESWORTH said that the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman who spoke last complained of the want of argument for the proposed reduction, end he called upon his Hon. Friend to explain his reasons for bringing forward this amendment. Before he attempted a reply to the Hon. and Gallant Member's speech, he would refer to a remark made by the Right Hon. Gentle man the Secretary at War—namely, that the Expense of the army and militia at the present moment was nearly the same as it was in 1835. That statement of the Hight Hoe. Gentleman contained a fallacy, because the milit try expenditure ought to be divided into two class( s —namely, the effective and the non-effective. Tne effective had refrence to services actually performed. Teat alone was under the control of Parliament, whereas the non-effective expenditure depended upon the num ber of men that had been employed i❑ the service in previous years. Ile found that the effective expendi ture in 1835 amounted to 3,344,0001. In 1848-49 to 4,356,000/. It subsequently decree:el to 3 936,000/, e:ug a reduction of 428,000/.; but there had still been an increase of 592,0001. since 1835, and cf 18,000 men. The question fur them now to consider was, whether they could with salty approximate more closely to the standard of 1835 and 1836. They demanded good rea sons to be shown for not execedime that amount, and it appeared to him that the onus probandi rested with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War to state these reasons.—(Bear.) If they were determined to keep up so large an amount of troops as they had at pre sent in the colonies, he thought that they also ought to keep up a considerable number of troops at home, be cause they should be prepared to afford those abroad re lief.--(Hear.) The question then, for them to consider was this, whether they required so large a number as 40,000 men in the colonies ? He asked the Committee to consider well what was the expense of keeping up this largo body in their colonies. In the returns which had been presented ;ast year to the House, they nad an ac count of tie expenditure for the years 1846 and 1847 under this head. It appeared then that the average expenditure for the years 1846 and 1847 amounted to 3,500,000/. exclusive of any expense incidental to their fleets kept in colonial situations, which amounted to 1,000,009/. The direct expenditure, therefore, must be considered as amounting to 4,500,000/. If, then, they included the expenditure on account of the Ordnance commissariat, the total would be 9,000,0001. The effec tive expenditure of the military was 3,000,0001., and of non-effective 1,000,000/. The colonies should be consi dered under three heads—namely, military stations, plantations, and what were properly called our colonies. If they wished to keep possession of such colonies as Hong-Kong, St. Helena, Labuan, and Sarawak, they must make up their minds to pay for this expense, which amounted to 500,000/. a year. Ho would now show that the s'a•,istics of the Hon. and Gallant Gen tleman who spoke last were all wrong. At Malta, in stead of only 1,000 men, there was.at that moment 2,891 men. 1141jor BLACKALL—I only spoke of the troops of the line. Sir W. MOLES WORTH calculated all the troops for whose support they had to pay. In the lonian Islands they had 2,500 men, and the expenditure amounted to 130,0001. a year on the average. Since the peace they had expended upon these islands 4,500,000/. They erected fortifications which cost 456,000/. They con structed a citadel that cost already 180,0001., and there was 96,000/. yet to be expended upon it. The fortress, it appeared, was so large that it was deemed not to be expedient to bring troops there to command it. So that the wisest thing that they could do in case of war was to withdraw their troops from it and to blow up the for tress. In reference to their plantations abroad, he would take the West Indies, and he found the troops there amounted to 6,500, requiring an expenditure of 500,000/. a year. He had never heard any good reason assigned for keeping so large a body of troops there. In the Mauritius they had 1,732 men, requiring an expenditure of 90,0001. a year. In 1838 they expended for military works there 200,000/., and other works amounting to 200,000/. more. In Ceylon the number of troops was 4,000, of which 1,800 were troops of the line, requiring an expenditure of 83,000/. a year. He would now refer to their colonies, properly so called. He maintained that there ought to be great re ductions made in the military forces in those colonies.— (Hear.) If:they gaveahem free institutions the colonies should pay for all their own local government.—(Hear.) This country ought not to keep any troops there unless it bo shown that they were required for Imperial ob jects. In Canada and their North American colonies they had 8,700 men, wad in Bermuda 1,000, entailing an expenditure of 645,0001. a7year. He contended that Cauala should pay for the support of these troops. If they wished to attach these colonies to this country they ought to give them local government, by which they would be enabled to manage their own affairs.—(Hear, hear.) In the Cape of Good Hope they had 5,182 men, which cost this country nearly 700,000/. a year. If they granted self government there, they would be able to reduce the number of their troops.—(Hear, hear.) In their Australian colonies, including New Zealand, the number of troops was 4,172. He believed that 2,500 of them were in New Zealand; the remainder were chiefly in Van Diemen's Land, where it was said they were required on account of the convicts. But in New Zealand the amount of troops was almost as large as the number of the adult European population. — (Hear, hear.) He considered, taking together the colo nies of Canada, the Cape of Good Hope, and New Zea land, they might reduce the army by seven or eight thousand men. He would propose that reduction on the principle that the colonies ought to pay all the expenees of their military system. Captain BOLDERO c )uld not understand how the Hon. B ironet could vote for a reduction of 11,000 men when all he proposed himself was a reduction of 8,000 men. The observations of the Hon. Baronet applied to the army in the colonies, as it was his hobby to get rid of the color ies. Sir W. MOLESWORTII—No, no. Captain BOLDERO—The Hon. Baronet asked what was the use of Hung-Kong and Van Diemen's Land. Sir W. MOLESWORTII—Ne, no. Captain BOLDERO—Now, they had these two colo nies since the favourite year 1835, and they were main taining now the same number in both colonies that they bad iu that ycar. Otte of these colonies they had taken AS A conquest, and as to the other they had it by stealth N rnE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, or purchase, or, perheps, a of both. He supposed that they had both for the advantage of the mercantile interest. If it were of no use to them, he asked in God's name of what use they were to the country? He found that they sent their maunfactures to both places. Now, ho asked, could they with safety to these colo nies reduce their army; or could they take away their army from Ireland? If the Noble Lord opposite could with confidence re'iuce ths. troops by 9,000 a year, he would do so. The Noble Lord could not do that —he could have no confidence in the tranquillity of Ireland, where thousands were starving; for at this moment he licked upon the people of Ireland as the most pauperised and the most helpless t ) be found amongst all the civi- I'm(' nations on the face of the earth, and therefore he said that they dare not withdraw their troops from Ireland. —(Hear.) And then they knew this, that there was nut at the present moment a crowned head in Europe that was not sustained by the f irce of bayonets.—(Herr.) There were from 300,000 to 400,000 soldiers in France, as well 2S in Prussia, and seeing this he said it would be the worst possible policy for the English to reduce their army below the proper standard.—(Hear.) It was said with railways they required less soldiers. Railways is ore of use in case of an invasion; but they were of no use in CASe of an internal commotion. In such a case, it they reduced the troops, theyiwould find some of the manu!aeturing distric s without troops. Let them sup pose thlt there was a row iu Liverpool, and that the troops ►►ere rent there to check the disturbance, then hose who ruiglit be disposed to excite commotion could get by the train in one hour to Manchester, and burn property. The Manchester people would then require troops. They would be wanted at both places at the same time. The persons in Manchester would complain that they paid taxes as well as those in Liverpool, ant! were eetitled to the same protection. In point of fact, the troops were mainly quartered in these districts. In Wales there was scarcely a single, soldier. In Scotland, with the exception of Glasgow and Edinburgh, there were scarcely any troops. In the rural districts there was scarcely a single soldier to Le found.—(Hesr.) The who'e force was kept up merely to defend the property of Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—(Hear, hear.) And yet with all this they heard constantly repeated outside the walls of that House that the army was kept up to pro vide fur the aristocracy.-7(flear.) It was unjust and unfair to the army fur men without any knowledge of the manner in which it was compce.el thus to speak of it. The aristocracy was not provided for in the army more than any other class of her Majesty's subjects. The ob• servation as to the aristocracy did not apply to any of the troops, with the exception of the Household Brigade and the Guares—and even amongst them was to be found a fair sprinkling from other cusses; whereas more than one-half of the officers in their heavy cavalry regi- ments were the sons of mercantile men, and in the ma. tines, the artillery, and the engineers, there was scarcely one officer connected with the aristocracy; whilst as to the officers of the line, it was notorious that almost every interest was fairly represented in it.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member fir Montrose had declared that there were 45,000 more men this year than in 1835, arid to make out that calculation he includel men in their dockyards, some of whom were not employed more than one week. As to the Hon. Member tor the West Riding, he had affirmed that they had more officers than was necessary—that there was one officer to every twelve men. He did not know how the Hon. Gentleman, with his powers of calculation, was able to make out that statement. Taking the number of officers and of men they did not make up the amount of lin 12. Taking out of the number those who were not working officers they would find the officers were not 1 in 12, but 1 in 30 ; and taking all classes of officers, including the surgeons, they were not lin 12, but lin 18. What with officers sick, &c., there was scarcely enough of officers, and they often heard from India that they had not officers enough. The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for the West Riding had also said that he had taken advice as to the com position and management cf their army, from officers, not officers of the English army, but officers of Hanover or Ihnigary—(Laughter) for one authority was as good as the other.—(Laughter.) Now, he said they were not to be bound by the authority of foreigners ; they were equal to all foreigners; they were superior to em; and it:the lion. Gentleman liked their discipline, be (Captain Boldero) could say that ho did rot. In conclusion, he begged to say, that if a reduction such as proposed were adopted, it would tend to promote dis content and disaffection iu every part of her Majesty's dominions. Mr. MACGREGOR gave credit to her Majesty's Government for the reductions effected by their, and which coincided with calculations of his own some few years since. He stated the number of troops employed by foreign Governments, and then added, anxious as he was to reduce taxation, and especially the window-tax, whenever the revenue would enable him to do it—he sail that he was aware that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer was as anxious to reduce expenditure and economise the finances of tte country as any man could 'sensibly be. Sir 13. HALL, was bound t) say that whenever the troops were called upon to act in this country they al ways acted with extraordinary forbearance. At the same time, being anxious to reduce the taxation of the country, he could not vote for a continuance of this ex penditure; and tif,er the discussion that was now taking place, followed as it would be by a division, the Noble Lord would be able to say to many Hon. Gentlemen that they would not vote for a redttetion of taxation be cause they had voted for expenditure. As a landed proprietor, he would be glad if there was a reduction ef taxation, and as a representative of a metropolitan bo rough, he desired a repeal of the window-tax, and it was to enable him to do so with a safe conscience that he would vote for the proposal of his Hon. Friend. They were in a situation in which they could reduce their army; they were at peace with the world, and the crown of their Monarch was not like that of foreign Sovereigns, for it was net, as the Hon. and Gallant Member for Chippenham had declared, "sustained by Layonets." Captain BOLDERO explained. Mr. STANFORD, though not familiar with army accounts, had taken the trcuble of going through these estimates page by page, and could not help expressing his admiration at the manner in which they had been prepared. Every discredit had attempted to be thrown on that noble service. --(Oh, oh.) There was a party in this country, and he had during the recess read a pamphlet written by ono of them, who asserted that the army was maintained fir the bene fit of the aristocracy, and that regiments were merely speculations of the colonels. Any man, how ever, of plain common understanding, without being a military man or familiar with accounts, could take up these estimates, see how every shilling was spent, and whether any one item was capable of reduction or not, upon which he would not then enter. He thought it creditable to any Government to have placed such clear estimates before the country. The point under consi deration was, whether the Government asked for a larger force than was necessary to maintain peace at home, the dignity of the empire abroad, and likewise to preserve our colonial possessions. With regard to the first, it was perfectly clear that there must be a sufficient force at home to back the law. Of what avail 'would be the sentences of judges, if there was no force at hand to enf Tee them. It might be said that they might be carried out by the means of the police force. That he denied. When Honourable Gentleman opposite voted for these reductions in the name of the people, he should be glad if they would explain what they meant by the word people. Did they include amongst them the pick pockets, thieves, convicts, and mendicants, that large body which belonged to what were called the dangerous classes ? These, according to an eminent statist, amounted to no less than 60,000 or 70,000, always ripe for anarchy and confusion. Was it to be supposed that such men were to be kept in restraint by 3,000 or 4,000 constables. This country was not France, with but one metropolis to keep in order. There was Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, and Glasgow, with from 200,000 to 300,000 inhabitants each, each requiring a garrison, not to tyrannise over the people, or deprive them of their political liberties and rights, but to pre vent disorder. It was monstrous to hear men get up and talk of Englishmen being tyrannised over, when every country admired our constitution, and adopted it as a model in constructing their own out of the embryo of re volution. Where were the petitions asking the House to disband our forces, or reduce them? Where there any from either this eountry or the colonies? They might desire reduction of taxation, but he knew of no application for reduction in this direction, the result of which would be to check the spread of our commerce by withdrawing protection from our colonies. Why, it was asked, were 2,000 men maintained in New Zealand, where there where only a few savages to keep in check? Why, a perusal of the dispatches from that colony would show that it was principally from the inadequacy of the force maintained there that the war had: been so much prolonged. In Canada, too, it was said, what necesaity can there be for maintaining 5,000 men? Better give them a constitution. It was unnecessary to go now into the causes of the late rebellion; but would any one main t iin that a reduction of the force would not have in creased the desire of America to obtain that colony? At the Cape it was equally clear that a strong force was requisite to resist the constant attscks of the Kafiri on the frontier. He rather doubted the trustworthiness of the sources from which the Hon. Member for the West Riding drew his fact;. — lie did not wish to cast any.im putation on the Hon. Member, but, when imputations were cast on the distinguished hero who was a glory to his country, and whose name would be handed down to posterity surrounded by a halo of renown, he had a right to doubt anything coming from such a source. The Honourable Member fJr the West Riding had also spoken slightingly of cur naval force. He vim sorry that any natural-born British subject should desire to depreciate that service, and must re gard him, if not au alien in blood, at least an alien in spirit. lie was glad to hear the Minister state that he was determined not to suffer one of our colonies to be taken from us, and to support that determination, which was supported on both sides, he must necessarily come down to the House and ask f,r an adequate force. It would not bo doing the Government justice, which be IN as always disposed to render them, after they had made all these reductions. when they had brougLt our forces at low as they could be consistently with the mainte nacce of our position abroad and the maint enance o f our colonies, to call on them t o make a f urt her reduction of so great an extent. He was not ordinarily a supporter of the Government, but on this occasion they should have his sincere and honest s upport, when they had come manfully forward, and, disdaining all low arts of popu larity, had shown themselves desirous to maintain the honour and glory of their country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. OSBORNE said that the Hon. Member who had just addressed the House seemed to have gathered his idea of the army from the proceedings of the select ves try of which he was at one time a Member—he . seemed to look upon it as a sort of new police.—(Hear, hear.) And when he asked where was the cry for the reduction of the army he seemed to have forgotten . the complaint of that same select vestry against the =pew rate for the increase of the new police. But, if the speech of the Hon. Member for Reading was extraordinary, that of the Hon. and Gallant Member for Chippenham was still more so. * The one represented the civil reasons in support of the estimates; the other the military reasons. The Hon. aad Gallant Member for-Chippenham had said that we kept up a large force in the colonies be cause the people were discontented with the mode of government there, and in Ireland because the people wese starving. The Hon. and Gallsnt Member's receipt for the misery at Kilrush would probably be an addi tional regiment!—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member seernel to represent the British soldier in the farce, stiking his breast and appealing to the honour of the British army, amidst the ready cheers of the audience. He (Mr. Osborne) believed the British soldier to be as honourable, but not more so than any other British gentleman ; aed he confessed that he, for one, would not be disposed to ask the counsel of the British soldier as to what reduc tion should be made :in his profession, as his mind was as liable to be warped as any ether person s. Was not the abolition of flogging resisted from year to year by the members of the military profession? and if it had not been for the labours of a civilian (he m( ant the Hon. Member for Mon ruse), what syst2m of punishment should we have had in the army at the present moment? —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member for Chippenham had expressed great indignation at the lion. Member for the Wee. Riding comparing our mili tary system with that of Austria or Prussia. Had the lion. and _Gallant Member forgotten that our military system was stolen from Prussia —that our infantry was manceevred upon the Prussian system? Tne lion. and Gallant Member also said that it was notorious the army was under-ufficered in India —forgetting, or not know ing., that it was not the Que'en's troops but the Coin paey's troops that were in this situation. His Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had said that there was some thing in the Minisierial benches that seemed to con taminate the men that sat on them, lie (Mr. Osborne) did agree with him in that. Ho believed there was a power, independent rf the Ministsriat benches, which would hinder any Government, wbe ther Whig or Tory, from carrying out reform in the army, and that that power proceeded from the Horse Guards.—(Elea-, hear.) He believed that the Noble Lord at the head ef the Go vernment, with the best ietentions, and the Right Hon. Gentlemen the Secretary at War, with the best know ledge of the subject, would not be allowed to carry their policy into execution while the present system of ma naging the army prevailed. Why was not the Horse Guards, the Ordnance Department, and the Commis sariat under the Treasury all combined and placed under one head? Why was there not a Minister of War ap pointed with a seat in the Cabinet, or, if necessary, a seat in that House, as was recommended by the Com mission which sat in 1837? It was evident that such a system would introduce not only greater vigour, but greater economy hit.) the army. It was well known that the Secretary at War was only a finance Secretary; he had no more power to carry out any re form than other Hon. Members, and it was therefore unfair to fall foul of him in that House for not doing so. The fault was not in him but in the sys tem; and so long as the present system Was kept up he held that, with all deference to the Hon. Member (Mr. Stanford), who was so enamoured with the novel manner in which the estimates were drawn up—though it was precisely the same as had been in use for thirty or forty years past—so long would there be profuse expenditure. —(Hear, hear.) Th e H on . Member for the W es t Riding had m a d e one assert i on in which he (Mr. Os borne) took leave t o differ from him—viz , that th e army was kept up for the benefit of the aristocracy.—(Hear.) Mr. COBDEN—What I said was, that such was the assertion of the Liverpool Financial Reform Association. Mr. OSBORNE—Oht the association that published several ignorant tracts.—(Laughter.) He (Mr. Osborne) could assure his Hon. Friend, and the Liverpool Finan cial Reform Association too, that he had taken particular pains on the subject, and he found that the great prc portion of officers in one branch of the service—the heavy Dragoons —were the sons of capitalists who bad made their money in a fair and honest way—(llear) and that a great proportion of the officers of the infantry were sons of very poor men, who had gone into the army as a profession. He maintained, then, that with one or two exceptional regiments, the working blanch of the army was not kept up for the benefit of the aristocracy.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, however, that the Hon. Member for the West Riding was per fectly justified in his assertion with respect to the dis proportion which existed between the number ef officers and men. He found that for an army of 100,000 men there were nine field-marshals, 58 generals, 67 lieute nant-generals, and 174 major-generals—a staff much greater than that of the French army of 450,000 men— (Hear, hear)—with half a million of national guards into the bargair. The Hon. Memter for Glasgow (Mr. Macgregor), who had come out on this occasion in his new character of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and who would not have them reduce anything, had said that the French army cost double what ours cost; but he had omitted to mention that that included the whole of the ordnance, while ours did not.—(liear, hear.) He must say, too, that he thought it unfortunate that the general officers were paid from the profits of the clothing estab lishment.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that a fixe I annual payment would not only place the officers in a more respectable position, but might be the means of saving 40,000/. a year.—([Tear, hear.) It was curious to notice the difference between the cost of clothing in the various departments of the army. The clothing of a private of the line, he found, cost 21, 65., the foot guards 3/. 155., the cavalry of the line 41., the Blues Si. 45., the Lifo Guards 81. 13s. 3d , being more than double the, co.t in the cavalry of the line. . And such dresses as they were too ! Cuirasses in which he was sure the men could never strike a blow, and enor mous boots in which even their large bodies were lost. —(Laughter.) The clothing of the French troops amounted to 11. 13s. 2d. per man; that cf the Prussian troops to 11. 153. 101; while that of the EngHsh troops was not less than 31., more than double that of the French, and almost double that of the Prussian.—(Hear, hear.) So long, however, as the system of the colore's clothing the men coainued, se long would this mons trous discrepancy also continue. If the Secretary at War had any interest at all at the Horse Guards, which he did not believe him to have more than any corporal of the army—(A laugh)—he ought to set about the entire alteration of this system. His Honourable Friend had told the House that the Austrian cavalry regiments bad not half the number of officers, as compared w:th men, that the English regi ments had; and such was the fact. Yet, was the former inferior to thnt of the latter? Very far from it indeed; on the contrary, the Austrian regiments could do things in the way of manoeuvring that we had no notion of in this country. In an English cavalry regiment what did he find? That there were actually one officer to every seven men on dismonnted parade, and one officer to every six men on mounted parade, whereas in Austria one officer and one non-commissioned officer were found amply sufficient for every forty men. —(Cheers.) Ho wanted to know why the same propor tion would not be found equally efficient here.—(Hear, hear.) Then there was this agency charge of 32,0001. per annum. Ho wanted to know what this was conti nued for, not to ask why it had ever been established? The Indian army, where it might be supposed an agency was wanted, if anywhere, bad no agency establishment. This 32,000/. was money actually wasted. He would suggest, further, that much good mi g h t b e d one , and a considerable saving effected, by appo i nt i ng h a lf-p a y officers to situations in the Adjutant-G enera l' s office, the Quartermaster -General's-office, and other similar esta blishments. Much less salaries would suffice than were paid to the present class of officials, whom he found retiring after 40 years' service upon a pension of 7001. a year, while general officers who had actually served their country for 40 years, many of them perhaps occupied in the field against the enemy, and who, moreover, had paid in hard cash for their promotions 4,000/. or 5,0001., were fain to retire upon 4001. per annum—(Hear, hear) —and as to the p urc hase -money of commission s an d promot i ons, l e t hi m o b s erve that the Right Hon. Ge n tl eman had on ly s poken of the regulation prices, whereas everybody knew that the unfortunate officer had to pay at each step a round sum over and above the regulation price. He was very glad to hear of the contemplated examination of officers; it was an examination which would do good in more ways than one ; for among other things, to educate the officers would open their eyes more widely to the evil and injustice of the system of commissions by purchase. —(Hear, hear.) TT --e was quite satisfied that the various modes which he bad indicated fully , a million a year might be saved. Expecting no good in this direction from the Committee now sitting up stairs, he should vote with his Hon. Friend. Mr. STANFORD said the Hon. Gentleman seemed to insinuate that there was some particular reason for his (Mr. Stanford's) baying left the parochial position to which reference bad been made. What did the Hon. Gentleman mean to suggest? Mr. OSBORNE said he had never till that evening heard of the Hon. Gentleman filling any parochial situa tion at all. Colonel CRATTERTON expressed his regret at the reduction made in the allowance for gratuities and medals for meritorious services. lie thought, too, that the defective accommodation in barracks should be remedied, for it frequently happened that the ill-con ducted soldier was better cared for in prison than the well-conducted one in barracks. For his own part, with reference; to', the well-being of the soldier, he was most happy that flogging had been in great part done away with, and that they were able to preserve the effective discipline of the army without having recourse to so de grading a punishment; but when Hoe. Gentlemen com plained of the private soldier never rising to command in a regiment, how, he should like to know, was a man, without any private means of his own to support the ex penditure incident to such a position and rank? Mr. MUNTZ said that so long as we kept our colo nies he certainly did not see how we were to reduce our army. Fur his parr, he said by all means give up the colonies, since there was no advantage we got from them in a commercial point of view that wo should not get much more amply from them if they were independent of us. Not that he wanted England to cast her colonies off; no, only if any of them said they were able to stand on their own bottoms, and would like to leave us, by all means let us reply, " We are much obliged to you, the sooner you go the better."—(Laughter.) As it was, he mug support the Government on this occasion. Colonel SIBTHORP said he certainly should support the Government, and if the Government had found it necessary to aek fur an augmentation of the army, he should have supported it ; " Cavendo tutus" was his motto. Colonel REID said that the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that he should possibly be able to announce, in the course of a short time, the nature of the exami nation to which o ffi cers would be subjected previous to their promotion. He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, 1%23 he prepared to state now what that ex amination would be ? If it was to be an examination of a character such as that lately adopted on the admission of officers to the service, he should oppose it in every pos- MARCH 12, tB5O The Tote was then agreed to. NAVY ESTIHATES. it all its military force. It was true that some of the North American states bad risen to great prosperity without having had British troops to assist them. But it so happened that, during the early history of those colonies, their inhabitants had been massacred three or four tirees before the settlement bad been firmly estab liehed.—(Hear, hear.) He confessed he should have been afraid that, with a population of 100,000 natives of a very warlike character in New Zealand, the English men there might have been similarly massacred, if they had not enjoyed the protection of a military force. Mr. J. B. SMITH said that, in his opinion, the Crown lands ought to be retained by the Crown until the colonies agreed to pay their military and naval expenses. Sir J. WALSII said that the Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire had said he did not under stand how these Members who should then vote against the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose could vote on the following (this) evening for the motion of the Hon. Member for West Surrey (tlr. H. Drummond). But motions of that description should be judged upon their own merits. Ito readily admitted that there ought to be as much economy practised as seas con sistent with the due discharge of the public service. But the party with which be had the honour to act was not a popularity-hunting party. They believed that as her Majesty's Government had already t ffected large reductions in the establishments of this country, and as a certain force was necesssqry to the due performance of great public duties, they did not think that in the pre sent circumstances of this country and of Europe they ought to adopt that proposed reduction of 16,000 men. Perhaps tho ~,Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire would allow him to allude to an expression which had been imputed to him in the public journals. The Hon. Member was reported to have said that by some purely pacific process he would crumple up !he empire of Russia. He wished to know if tho Hon. Member still thought himself capable of performing such a feat. The Hon. Gentleman had some experience of the means by which the prosperity of a great empire was crumpled ; and he (Sir J. Walsh) believed that if the Hoe. Gentleman were allowed to go to Russia, and carry on there a system of political agitation, be might succeed to some extent at least in accomplishing his object. But he did not think the Hon. Gentleman would try the experiment ; and for his part he only wished ho would. Mr. F. AIAULE said a question had been put to him by an Hon. and Gallant Member opposite, to which he wished to give an answer, in order to prevent the pos sibility of a mistake on a subject to which he had al ready alluded. He had to sate that it was net at pre sent contemplated that the second examination of officers previously to their being appointed captains, should be enforced; but ho hoped that that arrangement might hereafter be adopted. He believed that unless the ad vance of the officers in information kept pace with that of the men, the discipline of the army would be shaken or endangered. With reference to the question put to him by his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne), on the subject of clothing, he had to state that he admitted the importance of that matter, but he should then offer no opinion with respect to it, as it would be minutely inquired into and reported upon by the Com milt° up stairs. The Committee would decide whether or not the present practice on the subject should be ad hered to. Mr. lIUME replied. After the great increase which had been mede to the number of our troops since the year 1835, and the creation since that period of enrolled pensioners, dockyard battalions, and other corps, he felt that he was fully justified in submitting his proposal to the Committee. The Committee then divided, when there appeared— For Mr. Hume's amendment 50 For the original motion ... 223 Majority ••• ••• ••• —173 The vote was then agreed to. The next vote proposed was 1,700,0001. on account fcr def eying the charges of the land forces. Mr. lIUME said he had done his duty. Honourable Gentlemen opposite did not appear to be advocates of financial reform, and as ho was not likely to be sup ported in again dividing the House, ho would not occupy their attention further. Mr. HERRIES said the present mode of proceeding was a repetition of the course pursued last session, and he considered it a most inconvenient mode of dis patching the public business, for no opportu nity was afforded of discussing the propriety of different it ems of expenditure. Ile should like to know if there was any probability that ti o investigation of the Committee up stairs Iv ould liai to any material reduction in the votes. He thought the attention cf the Committee of the whole House ought to be directed to the reduction of the expenditure, but con sidered the present mode of proceeding had a direct ten dency to defeat the object. Lord J. RUSSELL agreed that if the present course was taken every year it would be objectionable; but the Committee reported from time to time, and it was dc siratle to wait for the report. With regard to the navy ' estimates and the ordeance, they were placed bef)re the Rouse is the ordinary manner. Sir H. WILLOUtjHBY inquired why there had been an increase in the vote under the head of " move ment of troops" to the exteLt of 14,0001.? Mr. F. MAULE said it had been considered de sirable to effect a general movement of the troops during the past year. L would be ( xtremely inconvenitut to keep them three years in the same quarters, and the increased expenditure had been caused by the general nalrement. Sir F. BARING rose to make hii statement on the navy eatithates, when Captain HARRIS objected to proceed at so late an hour of the evening.—C Oh, oh!" and cries of" Go on Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would be a disappoint ment to the House if the financial statement were not made on Friday ; and if the navy estimates were not taken on that night, it would be impossible that it could be then made.—(Hear, hear.) Captain HARRIS hal understood that a full discus sion of the navy estimates would be permitted before Easter. Mr. J. A. SMITH would move that the Chairman report progress.—(" No, nu! ') Mr. HUME asked what this statement had to do with the budget? The budget could be proceeded with per fectly well without it.—(A laugh.) After a few words from Mr. GOULBURN, Sir F. BARING said he would only take a vote as to the number of men, and not the wages.—(Hear.) Captain HARRIS, with great deference to the lion. Gentleman, must say that it was a very unusual course to go at once from one C)mmittee to another.—(" No, no.") He would only say that by this proceeding he was debarred from making a statement that he wished to make on the question " that the Speaker do leave the chair," with reference tl manning the navy.—(" Go on, go on.") Sir F. BARING then proceeded. The vote which he had to propose to the Committee was a vote fixing the number of men at 39,000, and in doing so he would, as was usual on such occ a sio n s, b r i ng before them a state ment of the general features of the different votes to which he would hereafter have to call their attention. The first vote to which he had to allude was one that he should bring forward with the more regret if ho did not entertain the hope that it would be the last vote of that character that the Committee would be called upon tc make—ho meant the rote f.ir making up the deficit of a former year.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask them to vote for the deficiency of 1848-49 the sum of 211,0001., by which in that year the expenditure had gone beyond the estimates. This the House was aware had occurred on many previous occasions; and it would perhaps be re collected that the late First Lord of the Admiralty stated last year that the deficit was likely to be from 250,0001. to 260,0001. It had not, however, reached that sum. He had always been of opinion, on whatever lido of the House ho happened to be, that the mode of making up by the votes of a subsequent year the deficiency of firmer estimates was a must unfortunate course to pursue; but it was a course not uncommon of late years. O❑e of the causes from which this arose was the insufficiency of the sum voted fur the number of seamen borne. All who were on the Committee of 1848 were aware that this incorrect mode of laying the esti mates came on very gradually, the evil being very small at first, but becoming serious and important in the end. —(Hear, hear.) The sum voted for the number had been constantly below what was really necessary; besides which it was well known that the vote for wages was at hest but a very louse statement, merely an approximate estimate, and that the excess expended over the esti mate was generally ♦ery considerable.—(Hear, hear.) It was also to bo noted that in 1848, when the estimates were proposed, the House having received them was so adverse to their passing that lower estimates were brought forward. The Government were anxious, as far as possible, to come within the lower estimates thus made, but it was found extremely difficult in so short a time as was allowed them to reduce the expenditure to the extent required, and the rtault had been that the expenditure, though below the general estimate, was not below the estimate subsequently given in. These things would in some measure account for the deficiency now to be made up ; but he was happy to say that this course would not be pursued on a future occasion. —(Hear, hear.) He was able to state that though there had been expenses they were not prepared for, yet there would be a surplus for the year 1849-50 such as would enable them to meet in some de gree the deficiencies of 184 S-49. He would now proceed with the general statement of the estimates. He gave for the effective service for 1850-51 a sum of 4,325,086/.; for the non-effective service, 1,388,6371.; add to this for the conveyance of troops 155,0001,, and for the packet-service 764,2361., and they b a d a total of 6,613,659/.—(E3ear, hear.) As compared with 1849-50, the reduction in the effective service was 406,972!, non-effective service, 5,533/., conveyance of troops, 11,0001. —in all, 624,005/.; deducting 16,000!. for increase in the packet-service, it amounted to 608,005/. But that vas not quite a fair comparison. Comparing the expenditure of 1848-49 with the estimates of 1850 51, the case stood thus:— expenditure for 1848-49, 7,947, 3 7 6 /.; estimate: for 1850-51, 6 613,659!.; being a difference of 1,333,7171.—(Cries of " Ilear, hear.") He was anxi ous to :fate to the House that great and important advantages had been derived from the labours of the Committee of 1848, because it would show that their re commendations had not been neglected; and he also wishe 1 to state that he took no credit to himself for the reductions that had been made, because they had been enabled to carry them into effect by the expenditure of former )ears. But for the expenditure that had formerly been made in several instances, it would have been possible now to have made the reductions that had been effected. Taking the three votes together—namely, for men, wages, and vic'u 11ling, the reduction inconsequence of the proposed reduction cf 1,000 men would be about 50,0001. The Committee recommended that an altera tion should be made in the mode of estimating the wages of the men which bad been for many years adopted. That which was considered a great source of incorrect ness had been altered, and the estimate for the last year was made in the mode introduced by his Right Hon Friend (Sir J. Graham) when he was First Lord of the Admiralty, to which it was found convenient again to have recourse. The next and most important point was that the number of men borne on the books should be kept within the number voted by Parliament. To do that without any deviation was almost impossible. The most attentive Board of Admiralty could not always bring the number of men within the vote. But so far as the last year was concerned they had been able to carry out that object, and with the exception of the first month it would be found that the monthly returns of the num ber of men voted had been below the number voted. It was for the purpose of attaining that end that the Com mittee recommended monthly returns, which it would be found had been accordingly adopted. It was pro posed to make a reduction of 1,000 men in the marine force. But in speaking of the number of men to be employed he must be permitted to observe that that was a subject in regard to which, to a cei tain degree, con fidence must be placed in the Government. It was not easy to give all the particular reasons why the Govern ment should fix upon any certain number of more That must rest a great deal upon circumstances which it might not be convenient to st ite. But he could say, th t on the Ist of Apri', 1848, the number of seen actually borne on the books was 46 000, whereas the number voted for the present year was 35,000 men; but though 46,000 men were borne on the books in 1848, yet 43,000 men only were voted that year. Under present circum stances the Government had carried the reduction as far as thee could consistently with the efficiency of the service. 'The Committee might wish to learn the distribution of the reel. There were in the East Indies, China, and New Zealand, 2,748; Cape of Good Hope, 793; Africa, 2,452; South-Eastern America, 993; Pacific, 2,618; North America and West Indies, 1,877; Me literranean, 7,959; Lisbon, 3,096; home ports (Ireland and Scotland), 5,130; packet service, 583; surveying service, 852; troop-ships, particular service yachts, 762; ordered home, or paying off, 1,310; and fitting out, 1,651. Intimately connected with the distribution of the men wes the number of ships in commission. From the Ist of January, 1850, the total ships of the line in commis sion was 13; adeaneel an ordinary 58; build ing 15, of which three were ready to be launched. There were frigates in commission 9; advanced an in ordinary 58; building 8; and three of which were ready to be launched. Vessels like frigates in commission, 92; advanced and ordinary, 79; building, 4; of which there were ready to be launched, 1. Of steam-vessels there were in commission 88; advanced and in ordinary, 68; building, 11—and of which there was one ready to be launched. So that there were 202 ships in commission ; 263 advanced and in ordinary, and 38 building • and 6 of these ships were reedy to be launc hed. Before quitting this part of the subject he would state that it was the inter tion of the Government to reduce the number of officers in the marine corps in proportion to the number of men that were reduced. A certain number of captains would therefore retire. It had been thought advisable to select for that purpose those officers who were at the head of the list, and to rillow them to re:ire on full pay rather than tike the young captains and pace them on half-pay, and to be recaTed afterwards on service. This would add to the efficiency of the corps, and would be fi It as a fair portion of feeour to the marine. With regard to the victualling department, there would not only be a reduction by reason of the number of men being re lured, but also in consequence of the cheapness of provisions enabling the Admiralty to enter into more favourable contraete There was one subject of deep interest to the whole service, but which he was not yet prepared to bring before the Committee—he meant the question of grog. It had occupied the attention of the Admiralty for same time; and the question had been laid before a com mittee of naval officers; and he hoped before long to lay the result of their labours before the House, and to be prepared with some proposal on the subject. The next vote was that for the Admiralty-office in which also there was a reduction. The Committee had recom mended that the number of those holding office in that department should be fixed by order in Council, and that no eloess of salary should be taken without the sanction of the Treasury. This plan had been adopted in effect, though not exactly in words. The Admiralty had gone back to the old system of having the e , tiblishment fet tled by order in Council. The Committee had observed that a large qua-16v of extra work was done by the clerks of tLe office, and they recommended that the system should cease. That recommendation would be acted upon; at the same time, it must be observed that when so many returns were required to be made to Parliament, it was not possible to get them ready with out the assistance of extra clerks. Ho could, however, state, that during the last year ten clerks had been re duced cot the Admiralty, at Whitehall, and at Somer set-house. Another arrangement had been made. which was much in accordance with the opinion of the Committee, and by which the whole steam de partment was placed under the control of the Surveyor of the Navy. His early attention had been turned to this point, and an opportunity having offered of placing the person who had hitherto superintended the steam dc partnaent of the navy in another situation, he had placed the whole of that department, together with the building deportment, under the authority of the Surveyor of the Navy. lie was not quite sure that his Gallant Friend would be able to perform all the dut'es connected with that department without farther assistance; still, as his Gallant Friend was so confident that be would be able to do so, he (Sir F. Baring) lead bowed to his opinion, and had entirely abolished the controllership of the steam department. In t' e surveying and scientific department a very considerable reduction had been effected, particu larly with regard to the construction of harbours. He new came to the dockyard establishments. The salaries to officers and wages to workmen of the dockyards, both at home and abroad, he should deal with under one head. Upon the estimate for that head of the present year, as compared with that of last year, there was a reduction of 81,00 e/ ; and, as compared with that of le4B-9, 130,0001. The whole of the yards at home had been examined and the expendi ture checked by the Lords of the Admiralty with the assistance of Sir B. Walker, and by those means a con siderable reduction had been effected. Abroad the work was not quite so pleasing, but the Admirals on the sta tions had been required, either themselves to go into the different items of expenditure, or to appoint a com mittee (f officers for the purpose; and in that way each yard abroad had been examined and reported; and the result had been some small repuction. He would state the numher of workmen employed in the dockyards on the Ist of April, 1848-9, ss compared with the number for the Ist of April, 1849-50. The reduction began on the Ist of January, 1848, when there were on the esta blishment 9,290. On the Ist cf April the number had increased to 9,519; on the Ist of April, 1849, it was 9,630, and on the Ist of April, 1850, it would be 9,621. In addition to that number there was an im- mense number of hired workmen not on the establish- ment. Oa the Ist of January, 1548, the total number of those on the establishment and those who were not was 12,218, on the Ist of April, 1849, 11,430; on the lei , . . of Apiil, 1849, 10,142, and on the Ist of April, 1850, the number estimated was 9,621; and there were also some temporarily employed as spinners for parti cular dockyards, but that would terminate when that particular work was over. The number so employed was 420, making for the Ist of April, 1850, 10,041, being a reduction cf 2,177, as compared with the number on the Ist cf January, 1848. Again, on the Ist cf April, 1849, the number of men employed in the factories at WooNich and Portsmouth was 1,856. The number prc posed to be taken this year was 1,155, being a reduction of 701. He did not mean to say that in future years there might not be some further reductions under the same head, but for the present he considered that 2,000 workmen being reduced since the Ist of January, 1848, and 700 in the f ictories since the Ist of April, 1849, was as far as he could go with a due regard to the efficiency of the service. The recommendation, indeed, of the Committee had been, that these establishments should be fixed by an order in Council. Since the estimates had bee❑ framed the Government bad been enabled to enter into a contract for the packet service between Kingstown and Holyhead upon reaeonable terms, part of which was that the parties should hire the Government fac tories at Holyhead; and consequently, so far as the Go vernment was concerned, there was no danger to the packet establishment. Another recommendation proposed by the Committee and strongly urged by them was one tho justice of which be fully admitted was incontestable. They recom mended that in the selection of officers for superinten dents of yards the Government should not think it ne cessary to confine themselves to the older officers of the service, but should select those who were moat fitted for the duties. lie was well aware that in adopting that recommendation he had disappointed the expectations of many gallant officers, but he had felt it his duty to carry that recommendation into effect, knowing that there was nothing upon which the efficiency of the department and the expenditure so much depended as on the eye of the superintendent of the 3 arde, without which all regu lations would be useless. He now came to that part v u o p t o e n . which was one of the most important votes—the store ar-triheextCreommemlthat subject—the part made ofa recommendation supply of oak. The supply had been practically mo yittedeiffilican d for the present year there had been was dead, an mo nopoly in the hands of a certain party. That party a contract with a new party. The reduction in this vote had been very cons id era b l e . The 8 - 8 599/ being a reduction, vote for this year was , as compared with that of last year, of 2 90, 2 70/., and a s compared with that of 1848 and 184 9 of 556,0721. The principle upon which the Govern recut proposed to act was to take the principal stores as they stood in 1849, and, calculating on the average ex penditure which would be c xpended in the course of the next year, to take the estimate for that which would re piece the amount actually expended. Therefore, although there was is great reduction, they were not go ing to work on the old stores, but proposed to keep the stores in a wholesome state and leave them as they found them last year. As to manufactured articles, he was not so fond of stores as with regard to timber and raw matc rish. In the present state of steam machinery it was advisable not to keep large stores of steam•engines. Improvemeas were always going on, and he thought it better now net to expend large sums in such stores. Wish respect to nest works, as compared with last year there was a considerable reduction. The estimate for 1848-9 was 626,000:. Fur the present year it was 321,0001., being a reduction of 300,000/. in consequence of the works which had been carried on at Portsmouth, ard those which 1 ad been commenced at offer places by his lamented predecessor, having been completed. At that late hour it would not be necessary for him to go at any length into the charges for the miscellaneous services connected with the navy; but he might say, generally, that in nose portions of the estimates the recommen dations of the Committee had been in great part adopted. As to the non-effective votes, the Committee had made two recommendations, which the Board of Admiralty were enabled to carry out—one of these was, that one , lieutenant should be promoted for every three vacancies the other was the limitAtioa of the ;lumber of cadets to sible way. If officers who had been for years serving their country in various: parts of the world were to be subjected to a sort of scholastic examination—if the title to promotion was to be determined by a proficiency in algebra and Cocker, it was sufficient to disgust them. For his own tart, he would rather throw up his commission than be subjected to it. He thought the new regulation perfectly uncalled for; as there never was a period when the officers of the army were so well educated as they now were. The evil at present was, that there was no incentive to preficieucy in study in the military pr,f:s sion. He would institute an examination of a voluntary and optional character. He would invite the officers to offer themselves as candidates, and he would esta blish a board of examiners, composed of officers of the highest rank, who should examine the candidates upon eve •y branch of their profession. He could not sit down without observing that there never was an occasion to which the obiervation of the lion. Member for Dum fries, that the British army was tbe most uuintellectual one in Europe, so little applied as the present. There was no ground whatever for such an assertion. Mr. COBDEN said, that while there was an appareet reductio❑ of 4,126 men, there hail been 2,230 men trans !erred to India, leaving only 1,636 as the real reduction. There were also 128 office's less charge I in the ac counts; but the real reduction was only 32, for there were 96 drafted to India. Of all the ranks of officers, down to second lieu•eeants and ensigns, the number last ow was 5,103, while fir the pro-out yen- the number was 5,105, so that the reduction, 932, took place amongst the a ijutaut quartermasters, and surgeons. That was sufficient to justify the demand for reform. They drafte 1 off the rank and file —they reduce! the effenive three of the army. hut, they did not reduce the num hers of the off. ere. With reference to the future force to be kept up, a good deal had been said connecting that question with the course to be t ikon toward the colonies. No doubt all depended upon the stature of that course, an I the Hon. Member for Southwark had cited statistics with respect t•, the colonies which were sufficient to justify the ruction of the lion. Member for Montrose. rhe present was the time to Fettle the question, when they were about to grant constitutions to the colonies. If, indeed, they had a voice in framing the estimate', as was the case in France and the United States, thecase might be different; but they knew nothing of th e esti reatls until they were laid before them in the House, and the only question submitted to them was, whether they would vote a certain number of men, and on that number would depend the expenditure. There should be no pot tponement of a decision of his question,, and how, he should ask, could Government ream) the expenditure if the establishments were not reinced? The ought to insert a clause in the colunial constitutions requiring them to maintain the cost of their own police and mili tary establishments. Lord J. MANNERS concurred with the Hon. Mem ll3r for the West Riding, that the speech of the Hon. Member for Southwark was the only one of all those delivered by the supporters of the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose which offered anything like an argument in its favour. But he thought he could show that the lion. Gentleman's speech, which was thus so . - much relied on by the Hon. Member for the West Riding, made rather against the motion, for the Hon. Member considered that 7,500 men only could be struck off; whereas the motion was t) strike off 10,000 men. That certainly did not support the conclusion arrived at by the Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Member for Mid dlesex had touchel upon the question of the clothing of the army, and ho (Lord Manners) would express a hope that in future years care would be Wren that no room would be given for those pair fal and dis graceful discussions with which the country had been startled during the autumn, and that they might be able to entertain the conviction that the clothing of the army would be carried on upon principles of justice and humanity, and that they might not have their con sciences affected by the apprehension that those poor people for whom so much sympathy had been ex pressed were reduced to a position at once painful and degralecl. - Bir W. MOLESWORTH explained that what he had said wai, that in the colonies, properly so called, the reduction might amount to 7,500 men; but taking our possessions into consideration, the reduction might be much greater—equal certainly to the motion of the lion. Member for Alontrosp. Colonel DUNNE denied that it would be any advan tage to reduce the number of cavalry officers, f,.)r they must have a nucl,ms for each regiment on its comple ment being completed. He did not think the British cavalry at all over efficient; and with regard to three of our possessions—Gibral ar, Malta, and Corfu, he be lieved the garrisons were not more than sufficient. Ho had t thank the Secretary at War for the attention which he had paid to the education of the army. Mr. V. SMITH said that the lion. and Gallant Officer had alluded t 9 fortresses, while the Hon. Member fir Southwark had referred to colonies. He agreed with the Hon. Member for Southwark and the lion. Member for the West Riding, as to the necessity of reducing the number of truops in the cr , lonies; but he was not pre pared to support the motion of the Hon. Member fur Montrose, because if they voted a reduction of 10,000 men, the vote would not be understood by the country. Last year the Secretary at War stated to the Committee which inqulred into the subject that ho bad written to one of our most important colonies, the Cape, that in future they would have to rely on themselves fir icfnice. His ow❑ opinion wJ,c, that the troops in some of our colonies ought to be witdrawn, or the expense thrown upon the colonies. He felt cidnvinced that the Kafir war would never have arisen if we had not had troops in the colony—(Laughter and dissent). A former war had been more easily suppressed by the inhabitants of the colony than the last war had been by the troops. He agreed with the Hon. Member for the West Biding, that as they were about to leave the colonists to self government, they ought also to leave to them the duty of self-defence (Hear, bear.) Some intimation should be made to the colonists of the policy which Govern. ment meant to pursue towards them in this respect. Danger might arise from leaving matters in their pre went state. Canada had obtained responsible govern ment, and if it inclined to annexation with the United States, our troops in the colony might act, and we should be involved in war—(Hear.) We should therefore come to some understanding with our colonies with regard to their defence. Free trade and the ;epeal of the Navi gation Act had completely changed the relations be twgen us and our colonies; and the time was therefore f Arourable for entering into some new arrangement with them, so that we might know what to expect from them and they from us. If there was to be a separation, he would have it take place on good terms, and not on Mr. REYNOLDS regretted he could not support the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose. The HOD. and Gallant Member for Chippenham had stated he would support the army in Ireland from a feeling of compassion towards the impoverished people of that country. The Hon. Member for Birmingham had called it a colonial question. It was so in our distant colonies, but in our Irish colony it was a Church Establishment question. Some connexion might be traced in Ireland between the tent and the tabernacle. In our Irish colony there were at present 22,000 troops, 12,000 pensioners, end 12,000 constahulary—in round numbers, 44,000 ac tive troops in Ireland, nut for the purpose of ministering to the poverty of the people, but fur the purpose :of forcing hostile institutions upon the people of that coun try. If the lion. Member for Montrose had come down manfully, and had moved for the reduction of the tem poralities of the Irish Church—(Question)—and had connected it with a motion for the reduction of the troops in Ireland, he should have supported him. If the mili tary f )ree was to be retained at its present amount, ho would have it all quartered in Ireland, so that the peo ple might have the benefit of the money spent by the troops.—(A laugh.) Alderman SIDNEY said be was a decided friend to retrenchment and economy, and should vote for the mo tion of the Hon. Member for Montrose. The power of paying taxes had been greatly lessened by the measures lately passed by Parliament, and he should vote for this motion, as ho should for the motion of the Hon. Member for Surrey to-morrow night. Lord J. RUSSELL would not enter at all into the general question whether there should be a reduction of 10,000 men beyond the reduction of 4,000 men proposed by Government. The statement, however, made by the lion. Member for Northampt ,n required some notice. As he understood the Hon. Member, he seemed dis posed to lay down the principle, that, as the colonies were to have self-government, and as this country bad adopted a free-trade policy, the colonies ought to be 101 l to themselves for their own defence. Now he (Lord J. Russell) could not assent to that doctrine. lie was com pletely opposed to any excessive or unnecessary military force in the colonies, as he should be to any excessive or superfluous force in the United Kingdom; but he could not consent to lay down the principle that the colo nies should rely on their own resources for their defence. —(lIoar.) He should rather say that we should proportion our forces to the wants of each colony, according to the circumstances in which they were placed. With respect to our military fortresses, such as Gibraltar, Malts, and the lonian Islands, it had not been denied that the forces were insufficient. With regard to some of the colonies, there had been a considerable reduction in the forces, In Jamaica and in the West Indies generally the force now was 4,500 less than in 1835, and in Australia consider able reductions had been made. The force of 4,000 had been reduced 2,620, making a reduction of 1,380 men. Wherever, indeed, reductions could be made it was de sirable in his opinion to make them; but there were occasions when a necessity existed of sending addi tional forces to the colonies, and in such cases of avert ing danger from the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) Neither should be think that fortified places in the colonies ought to be left to be guarded by troops raised by the colonists. He should be sorry if we were to withdraw our troops from such a fortress as that of Quebec, and leave Canada to provide for its own defence.—(llear, heir.) Without going, therefore, into the general question, he must decline agreeing to the general principle laid down by the Hon. Member for Northamp ton. Ile should be ready to reduce the number of our troops in any particular colony, if good reason should be shown fur so doing. But he could not agree to the general principle of telling our colonies that they were not hereof e: to have any assistance from the mother country.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. V. SMITti said tht t in the argument he had used he had relish on the communication made by Earl Grey to Sir 11. Smith, to the effect that in any future Kafir war the inhabitants of the Cape should rely upon themselves. Lord J. RUSSELL said that when his Noble Friend had written that dispatch ho had not intonded that the inhabitants of the C are were no t t o use the troops that m ight be in the colony; but had merely meant to state that they should not expect that this country would incur a fresh increase of expenditure to meet a Kafir war. But that case rather confirmed what he (Lord J. Russell) had said, that each case should stand upon its own merits. New Z'aland had Rot at present a representative constitution, although it might have one in a few years; but this country ought not, he thought, on that account to withdraw from