The Sun. — London, England, 1850-02-22 00:00:00

%) Slot, fr the only observation made upon it came . 1 ,"„n1 th. Honourable Member for Occkermoutn entees,l-sf°,n.oura.ble Geoutionasn had total pi,-eitehce ,l,oll e e thee. proce 'times on the gamceaess a (1, 1 " now relt the House just to see bow the Her. th e ul-tein hiresslf hrel deah with that question durnlg Lo list five }ear lie found that in March, 1845,. the ° D. GP had given notice for a Cominthee ^ lith e , th e ',I-nine-laws, arid in obedi ence t o a sugges ti on of Wh o t ' l ghf Hon. Baronet the Member f or T e mworth, nlitte asthen a t t h e head of al, Government, the Coal 4nd tl; VC" appointed. The Committee sat till July, ge°tirecommended its re•appuirdant; but . the lion. te n "man the Member f Manchester had in the mean atlcie either found his thirst cool or his difficulties increase, tiehe never reevsd for the to appointment of the Coin ,n'tet' during 18 , 16 or 1847. In February, 181 S, .he !eet ti n t n ed 1.4 inquire' , of the lion. Gen:leuaan what his In tel e as, and his answer was. that h o e , th e 'n eagased in the cousidsration I growth of cotton in Indie. That might hove been ifne ci ' lil et ay teplenation ; bet at all events, offer so t ailed con ideration, he eoped the floe. Getirlsmin hae that question. In March, 1848, the Hon. Gen an raw. (1 fur le to bring in a Bill , Iluusati innendineut ss w - as . propoeed that the should adjourn, which was carried, and e naysteriou dist peat e I, and it had net been b ° 4l' l. of .' i n B P• Nov;,- ) his P llon. Friend the Member f *p oi L ath' • ' r e , not making such great professions, , had 4,4te.ileterval brought in a practical amendment o, the ite,„(tws brought was carried, and had since been . found sere to exceedingly well.—(Hear, hear.) So that if they th e : to go by that test, the Hon. Member for Man ile-„•traold come off very poorly indeed.—(Hear, hear.? (ate 4 7 came to a subject on which the Secretary of th e ee r th u home Department had compleine t etober for Buckinghamshire had touched but g . 1 14 0 , lightl3 ; tae Was sorry the Right Honourable Gee nad so closely fellovved the example of the 410 ts - " ra ble MeMber far Buckinghamshire. Anything -„B3,eagre niggard than his allusions to Ireland,.. eh "I\r• Stafford) had never heard.—(Protectionist I ltt er i s d. ' it would be his painful duty to enlighten the e : 11 the state of Ireland—at all events, on that . i y with which he was intimately connected—in tßtia der t nat the Irish Members who intended to local ti l4l B f any rec onsideration of the poor-laws and ti otl real property should be able to get up in the thous: "(1 6 .3? vela th believed the present state o kick a°llairY sho y uld ey continue.—(Hear, hear. lie ttssienthe establishment charges in Ireland 4,0 0 „'; to 289,0001 He took the law expenses at about the 4 1 * rate at 41,0001.; and . 4 • 111 . e collectors' poundage Bend ration of justice at about 55,0001. He prboe kis flu. addition to that, that 90,0001. should e migration ; 490,0001. was the amount eh h aeon :ft alien. Proposed to be granted to Irel t an_ d . . - ; 311 1 , C otopl, tely satisfy them of the truth o his would then read to them the commu °,ttie highly respectable Roman Catholic mole 'isa',"°,,Whose word they might place the utmost f e r' t he Hon. Gentleman then read the letter,. i 4 lh ta Ti °4l iB his statement it appeared . that in a parish f'r which he had acted . as clerk, wad off the applications for relief which edetermined to reCuse—fo r it was a di i'hur.leSsnd°ie'dthe Poor-law Board to deny all relief to 16 7 ° , 8 eli eu ' Paupers —the consequence_ had been that to t the union the relief had been reduced from 12 0 - 1 20 e ae l 0 week. Th roug h th a t regu l a ti on u p war d s old bodied labourers had been put on the list. xt passcounty to the of Limerick, whence 4 guard. ' An ions had been forwarded from the board t e• h ilt erse 418 to the Noble Lord at the head of the ;" tle e :, in which the idea that pauperism was on 1;441' 118 e was filly refuted. Ile would ask the rya 11°11. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland d w ,4r4tener received in'ormation from Ireland, whether armedB o f Limerick had not been paraded ' by bands lij i 'P;, °l ens whose ' cry was, "Bread or Blood !" and e' b een hom, not only . the police but the military T 6 llo~P u ed out. This rule of the House refused b C eve re istal to be separated from this question. a v :i'd that I re l an d, once i n j ure d by an Eng -er° of monopoly, was now suffering :qua ly mo te of free tr a d e — eq ually a victim, though Q s toi t i e 110501 ,, but yet not less noxious, system. ke'" ' 4 °n. Gentlemen opposite, that the question 0 try too momentous to be decided by a single qicr; a nd that they should continue, 1 1 1 5 : 11 14 - . 4 their power, to try and save themselves asiar ;4it lairi f riends, if friends they could be called h a , fte; S;/ :I,, a ge at public meetings.—(llet . ir, oar. :,,,Plis ° „ ltl e still continue to contend that immediate i ,tl: 4 - I . (4l glit not to be the sole rule which ought . to 1i t t ", 4 41 0 - : 4 tk e gislatu re ; that with kingdoms, as with in- Oase. " Cheapest bargain often proved the dearest tB tes 80 c 1 that a Legislature which only considered V t eat -4ts of consumers did not deserve that ll e e l a i ro beiges: Which they ought to possess. I;Blsy,.."ed that they were an increasing party in the 4, 1 4 1, e nt Perty not pledged to this or thatiesport t l' t oNt',,"„ e 'PlY, and he truste I irrevocably, pledged to nnd comprehensive policy which had con rlt re sources of this groat nation.—(Cheers.) _ asttf e t is and Sir J. GRAHAM, at the conclusion of e led iatel: 4 4' s Gentleman's speech, rose together, , an call: re were calls for each. The Speaker, t i,, it ' tr n; e ed a i tl e y d , tl Pon Sir James Graham, and Sir Robert s kt : Jtem ee 'elY gave way !le,lt Iv h , 4 z 13 GRAHAM then proceeded to observe i l l L 4 ti,4-147'th great diffidence that he intruded himself l a s " t et:e` 4 °use, but if it should be the p:easure of si the 14 '4 -eat. his Right Honourable Friend the ern linefeh Bfiesvorth, then he wonid at once give way.— etailia) was not aware that it was the inten- Va n Right Honourable Friend to offer any ob . - k k eN t 4 the 'louse at that hour, arid it was only in )(a. b e ' to the call of the Speaker that he - e a _ risen a second time.—(Hear, hear.) th ought it most desirable that y they should ' i t 41 the 'll' as possible the precise subject ,t 1 %I l i were to discuss,. and, therefore, 'ts b iles 441 follow the Honourable Gentleman who , 4 1 „k1A,„ aat down into the game-laws, t e !I t ,As Bill, and much less should he dis- V i ttee ts tien of landlord and tenant in the question 'i'boe: w hich was more germane to the matter they 'isP , ta n ,„ t° debate. —(Hear.) agree d with the Hon, ill 1 .1 011: t hat the question l they ie badto discuss was a In & e n °. If he thought it was to be narrowed "ti,ge limits of the motion introduced Itt: c11 11 'Onotirehl Member for .Buckinghamshire N t B . ot d i n " aj a v v: . l beta et fe c ctly willing to rest his vote on Right Hon. Baronet the r k , 7, f speech theof ith „tae for the Home Department.—(Cheers.) 4 te,,Satit v 'gard to the landed proprietors of Ireland,.. 11 4 I th'e !`) lays that he was not deficient: in ad qtilhis tnterests of that country as much as he pos even at the sacrifice of his own; because Mei% that the maxim of the preference of the good 'tt ` 4 e 4 e l should always acted upon. lie looked Sil le i ° Rh's t4iB or this question as too narrow . for the oh :t C h at t h e uY the Hoe. Mover (Mr. Disraeli); yet he 1 , , , 1 e,.! same time say, that he believed . that this the ►of",",,t ) f a series of questions, all tending to f ;" l ,e Past policy of the country, fir he con- ,tt et ( h. ; ,e Past only a fragment of that large measure f s e l l ba t Disraeli) proposed lest year. He was o 1 0 1 t he Ho Mover intended to transfer to the t/I‘4"tl Pund n ' not e l afe y ,only the poor-rate, hut the . la tit t• the highway-rate; for ho (Mr. Disraeli) ty l,,N.t y ,, t i' the sake cf argument, ho would bring ander the consideration of the House, tt Ogae t the would also present to the notice tf 1 (1 1' a. very important subject, the malt -0 the u m of 20,000,000/, tri,be trans *nn Itted-tax about to become a subject Ci . S °l l 4 ° l l, W hi c h he look° upon ki nf hr 7 r t importance, for it involve a d s the h iii_ t l e t: e tti n o o t ti - A ° 4ti P tu a .t s g e t' l e .t a p a or s icy a of , this country, and would question . of change with re 00r ministration. This was plainly intelli 10b te s y from the speech of the H . ou. Mover, but OtOtit 'Peeeh of a Noble Duke in another . place It e t hi e y ys of h . hdlond), for that Noble Duke saidth o at . Party was to throw not the present G . 'lll-ciidstiti!o dissolve Parliament, for purposes which h, 144 :al es - " ails but which he believed would not b l e Ves tk 's Would be impossihle, considering the , 1 0 7 top ris of the great mass of the !lettere l o hfbgaaevae iPse,,,tyc'tectionists' principles, as such wo tr u tstitVfli " 4 of the past policy of the country. t , ttt . He fo t 7i k (Ce ( t i h t woUld better become those ono 3 u . rable . itosseria,--0 Protectionists) that they should openly siejnYale,;aelitiOns, than to be thus masking f them; It ti !te l 4 Of th " that they could as well move for the re : 4 ' 4 / 4 l'etZ, ° Pinion of the House without a Com . Ikkt'r a tt i Vt, and he therefore did not see the requt a, motion. He would next rt for to the flaN s ' Lem', e loquent speech of the Hon. Member (Nt;" 18 f1 (ai r Cha rteris); but he should say . 1 ): 1 1:1 ''eh * N at j• the itrteris) seemed to p s ''lte' L lt t ftfrei B Peech of the Hon. Member (Mr. Dis: 'v I ' 4 I ) 3 g to the establishment charges, there ap i,t11 % 1m 0 ha - r e►e a to espect of them a want of due control, ter, "leLtee clangorous and prodigal expenditure. bra Idsaipintraericement of a series of transfers, and ypl c4 " , t11 - „!es n y ,, 811 0111(1 be violated, it would lead to den orliy:u with the Hon. Member for East Lo la k 8 Whi t question could on ' ly be settled on prin- Cfl: ti ne ° N O 3 :I a nd justice, and that the burdens which le kt es to remove were quite insignificant if the k dl ll te tt r.) 4 ' 4 settled on those great principles.- 111 P 1 sr. h8 d ve tte could not deny that recent legislative L as 'tee, an 4ected the lauded interest to a consider eh:44l'4l4,4 i toPeied upon it difficulty and distress; ' 4 ' - ' l ,yet — ekivert agree with the Hon. Member for N,, 1 4 the k 1, -4 t (lir. Disraeli), when he said that with 41 1 1 ‘ ttl eat: ur thens which it was proposed to remove, Let' far W spe feri a ' y e whether the benefit to be con -Ittat4oBeta liven to the landlord or the to silliOtiejeeffher did he think that the tenaetd thae*tet Ti t :Rtee hi that opinion.—(Hear, hear, d ari t Pi et cle: re ßiebt Lion. Baronet then proceede in 10 (Offaly., a'e of 15 per cent. had taken a Ire a ,: the agricultural districts. In Scotland, es o p Or excellent management of the poor, the tQll4Bset4Pletts had diminished.—(Hear.) "The gees : B o P s 4B etis i e t e m 'yylf. would they consent to a reversal 14 0 I 'seet t„sTicy in respect to taxation, and would lir 1 8 erty Ptece a large portion or the burdens of 4 1 '4 ht,y titt°ll those article, of primary necessity from Lbw's c hose tNow, to that ques 'il wa s not h • itx' ? that aqui esthete te pronounce the opinion tta,'Rhs erNitity or , justice in such a proposition. i • a lo ' e Roug e kiD ' 0 1!: a ti h ad would agree with him that inch ‘tys4alll,4 4relend4retteen carried to . demonstration beyond kai'•t,, tr e , .s „ ° et% 'since the income- ex had been 4 1 1 , 4 ,e,0rt, reduction had taken place ; that tex t, lee " ill, i t s?l, and when it came to be re none 1441 %11 ,4 44 n hie opinion, be the proper time to ad spht ' lB tifl and there were burdens fote°noes,Zeyttailily required to be relieved. The ~,1 1 11, 1 1 11° 11 s s h ie , 'o Baronet having alluded to the de -414e1et4,,s t;,l,,,,intif,ellowed in the currency, consequent tli t hee se le tie ,': ll in 1819, and which the country uha heed'feud said they would now, by the kee dice ' 'n'ish tWee making, `gfie '.ulsy , o fall into a not k • 121 bet and enumerated eleven articles, bricks, butter, cheese, soar, tes, coffee, sugar, currants, and raisins, which enter so much into the comforts and necessities of the poor; and asked the House if it was going to again impose heavy burdens on those articles fur the t enefit of real property.—( Hear.) Then there were a - Few other articles which he would call the poor inan's li ixuries—those narcotics in which he sought a short obliviousness of his cares, and which com prised tolaeco, spirits, and beer—and were they, he would ask, pi eparc d to impose heaver restrictions on the use of those luxu.7ces of the pcor? Would there, he would ask, be either equity or justice in transferring the burdens cf the land( al interest to those articles? The Right Honourable :Baronet then referred the attention of the House to w hat might be done by the landed interest to alleviate their own burdens, by the applica tion of science in, the cultiva'ion of their estates, and by great care in the management of them, end instanced his own t state as an example on this subject. By care, and by ere at attention, and by the application of science, he had succeeded in reducing the local burdens to which he ; estate was subject, and in making his tenantry compel atively comfor t Alla. With e;pact to bricks and timber , he showed, as tegarded the landed interest and the pub; tic in genera!, the great injustice of levying and keeping up a tax on these articles, operating as the impost did against all improvements, and he should certainly like to see the existing tax entirely re • moved front them. lie though'. that the House, in any course which it wigi it take in the adjustment of the burdens, ought not lose sight of the int crests of the poor; and while tie .se who were in favour of the recent legislative changes h. ad the gnat body r f the community we h them, he felt :that they were strong, and had no thing to fear; and to those who would return to the for mer s; stem of re! traction, and had not the community with them, he woued say, they were weak and powerless, and bad no chance of a return to that system.—(flear.) Speaking from cep mience, he could state that in his im mediate neighbourhood there had not been any reduction of wages. The furmerte and employers of labour had nut reduced the remune ration for employment; and all the articles of first necessity being cheap, he never recol lested on his own estate so much happiness and content ment among the wor king classes. Alluding to a remark made the other even] ing by his Honourable Friend the Member for Surrey, respecting the manufacturing and commercial classes— a remark that he had heard with deep regret—the Rig lit Honourable Baronet said that it was his most anxic us wish and desire that all classes should be united, wed the policy he had ever adopted he believed in his heart. and conscience to be that which was best calculated to p remote that end. If they looked to the city of Glasgow, which was next in importance to the metropolis, the y would find, on the authority of the sanitary report of t he town council, that that city, which last year had been d risited by an epidemic, was now free from that affliction s , trade and confidence was restored, money was cheap a nd provisions low, the merchants and the manufacturers were full of hope, feel the workmen fall of employment. —(Hear, hear.) He knew how dan gerous it was to deal in prophesy in that House, but still he coefelently declared his belief that, when the revenue of the coun try had improved, when the com mercial and manufeet uring classes were prosparing,when property was improving in value, the owners and occu piers of the soil wool I not long remain the only class subjected to suffering .—(Hear, are Having thanked the House for the ind ulgeace accorded to him while he had so long trespasses, i on its time, the Right Hon. Gen tleman concluded by stating that for reasons assigned— reasons which he bet; eved to be conclusive—he should vote against advancic g one step towards the considera tion of the motion pt oposed by the Honourable Gentle man below him, and to give the proposition at the outset his decided oppositime—(Ceeers.) Mr. GLADSTONE said that, concurring with kis Right Hon. Friend he the general opinions he had ex pressed with regard e the effect of the recent commer cial policy, having vet ted with him since the advent of the present Govern= ‘nt to power on every question of importance iffectine- t oth the trade and internal economy of the country, anceet taching the greatest weight to his authority, even ine ee endently of the ability with which he had enforced his arguments, he felt it incumbent on him to state briefly the reasons which actuated him for the vets he intended giving, inasmuch as that vote would be different from the vote of his Right Hon. Friend.—(Cheers from the Protectionist benches.) The Rig be Honourable Gentleman wished to impress the House erith the conviction that they were not really canvassing; the details of the proposition of the Honourable namber Buckinghamshire, but a change ef Aetrinistrastion, the transfer of eighteen millions to the Consolidated Fund, and the reversal of free-trade policy. Now, in the vote which he was about to give, he confessed he could. not see any of those things. With respect to the charge of Administration, he should say that even such a contingency should not exercise any paramount influence in the determination of a claim which was viewed as a claim of justice on the part of a great portion of their fellow-subjects. But, if he un derstood the Right Ho nourable Geatleman the Secretary f e. the Home Department, that was not the ground taken by the Government, fees be had told them that when the financial statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was moved they could I then consider the points of the Hon. Member for Beckinghamshire's proposition, and that those who now voted against it could, if they saw reason for changing t heir opinions, then vote its adop tion. This showed pre tty clearly that the question was not one for change of Administration. Then with re gard to the alleged re: ult of transferring eighteen mil lions to the Consolidaead Fund. He met that statement, firstly, by disputing its , accuracy; and in the next place, by maintaining that, irrespective of all threatened ulte rior measures, they should consider the proposal of the Hon. Member for Bet ckinghamshire on its merits, and not withhold that which was just and reasonable because the motion might be f )flowed by that which was unjust and unreasonable.—(hear.) With regard to the Right lion. Gentleman's statement that the adoption of the proposition would be :a reversal of free-trade policy, he wished to state distinct ly that if— Sir JAMES GRAB AM interrupted his Right Hon. Friend for the purpose of assuring him that ht+ had not made any such statement, or at least, if he had done so, it did not express the sentiment he intended to convey. What he wished to tke understood as having stated was, that he considered tb e proposition would lead to a re versal of the relief now afforded to the labouring classes. Mr. GLADSTONE rejoiced at the explanation, and felt happy that an acci dental expression had misrepre sented the opinion of his Rie,ht Hon. Friend. His views of the Hon. MemberN motion were so weak, after the gigantic picture drawn by his Right Hon. Friend, that he telt almost ashamed to occupy the attention of the House, but he desired it to be understood that in sup porting the proposition for a Committee he did not in any way intend to deliver up his discretion to any specific proposal, nor to bind that discretion with respect to the terms LeC the three resolutions which the Hon. Member fur Buckinghamshire had announced, nor to any ulterior measures which in his judg ment ho might subsequently bring forward.—(Hear, hear.) He meant simply to pledge himself to this ex tent, that presuming tb ere were portions of the charges of poor-rate and county-rates, which might be trans ferred to the Consoli dated Fund without abandoning the advantages of local legislation, he was willing to go into Committee for the purpose of considering and deter mining which of those charges might with advantage, and a due regard to the great principle of local control, be transferred to thee Consolidated Fund. There was, in his opinion, direct connexion between the motion and their commercial policy, and he considered that its favourable consideration would have a tendency to weaken the agitation for a restoration of protection. He supported the mot ion on the very ground which his Right Hon. Friend intended opposing it, namely, on the principle of justice. It was impossible to look at the tax levied for the support of the poor without being convinced of the inequality of its pressure. They could not, it was true, have an exactly equal tax, but then there could bo ,en approximation to that equality of pressure. The olhjection of impracticability cod not apply to the motion :of the Hon. Member for Buck inghamshire, because that proposition affirmed the un equal pressure of the rates. Neither was the question ono between labour •and property, but between certain descriptions of property on the one hand, and certain descriptions of property on the other. His Right Hon. Friend had asked what party would be relieved oy the change proposed? and he (Mr. Gladstone) was not a little surprised at the -estimate he (Sir James Graham) had formed of the _immediate effects of the motion. Looking at the relation between landlord and tenant respectively, they could not in their consideration of this branch of the qu. stroll pass by the yeoman and inde pendent small farmer class, who, under present circum stances, had peculiar claims for support. His Right Hon. Friend admitted that the holders of leases of the tenant -farming class would during the continuance of those leases get the benefit of the change. Then came the case of the tenant-at-will. Looking at the relation exist ing between the landlord and his tenants , not in a legal., but in a moral and social point of view, he believed that the tenant-at-will would not be deprived by his land lord of the benefit of those changes. The tenant farmer and the independent yeoman, then, were the class that would be benefited. But supposing that after a time the whole benefit came to the landlord thereof, his Right Hon. Friend would not argue that such a re sult should be considered a valid objection to the propo sition. If these were objections to the scheme, the Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to show that there was not one of them which with equal force might not be urged against an equalization of schedule A in the Property-tax Bill, which the Right Hon. Member for Ripon admitted pressed unjustly on the agricultural classes. and ought to be removed. With regard to the financial objections urged, that they should have before them a statement of the year—know the available surplus, and the relative claims that different classes and interests might advance previously to the consi deration of the proposition, he met those objections by stating that he was prepared to advocate, or at least t consider the claim on the• ground of justice. But, independently of this circumstance, he men tioned that there were considerations of policy which might incline the Government, and those who did not object about the abstract justice of the motion, to give it a fair hearing. Admitting that there was much prosperity in the country, he could not shut his eyes to the fact, that in the agricultural class there was se vere struggling going on, and that the farmers were man fully exciting them Aves; and though there might be some whose hearts had already given way, and who had prematurely learned the lesson of despondency, still the great mass of that class were engaged in a struggle which they supported with all the energy they pos sessed. Ho would not discuss the large and over whelming questions mooted by his Right Hon. Friend. Whether the effect of agreeing to the motion would have the effect of overthrowing the Government, and trans ferring 18,000,000/. of taxation to the Consolidated Fund, ho would not discuss. He was contented to vote on the motion as it stood before the House, and in it he saw no indication of such overwhelming changes. The Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, certainly did not look upon the motion in the same light as his Right Honour able Friend, for he_ _distinctly stated that when the surplus revenue was ascertained it would then be proper to consider how it could best be appropriated. He trusted that considering that protection had been taken away from agriculture, the House would treat the motion in a liberal and conciliatory spirits He appealed to those who had gained a great triumph by the recent commercial policy which had been adopted to support the motion, on the ground that it would tend to remove a fair cause of complaint, and render the cry for protec tion less powerful than if this inequality was removed. To those who were animated by an abstract sense of justice 1;3 appealed, because he believed the claim was just, and he believed the motion also deserved the sup • port of those, who though they might sympathise with an abstract and mathematical justice, could yet sympa thise with the gallaut struggle whims the farmers and yeomanry of the country were now making, and with the condition of the peasantry throughout the coun try. For his own part, he gave the proposition his most decided and cordial rupport, because the result ( f the debate on his own mind hay] been, that in all sub stantial points, tan propoeltion itself, and the reasons adduced by the Honourable Member who moved it, had heel fully and reasonably sustained. (The Hoe. Gentlemen sat down amidst loud cheers from the Pro tectionists.) Mr, J. WILSON joined issue with those who sup ported the motion on the ground of its justice, arid con tended thut the inequality of a tax on property was sooner or later lost in the transfer of it to new proprie tors. Ha came to another point much insisted ou by lion. Gentlemen opposite. It was said that inasmuch as landed proprietors inherited those charges under a pro tective system, they hail as present to meet a new and unforeseen difficulty. But he denied that the protective system had been a real advantage to the landowner; and he was also prepared to deny, or at least very much to doubt, that the removal of that system had been a real disadvantage to the landowner. The Hon. Gentle man the Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford) had asked what was the cause of the present depression in the prices of agricultural produce? Now, in reply to that question, he should endeavour to show that the pre sent prices were of an exceptional and accidental charac ter, and that they were duck as no prudent land owner or farmer, and still less such as the Legislature could proceed to act upon. He should first, however, observe that, at some former periods, and more especially in the year 1836, greater distress and a greater depth of despair prevailed among the cultivators of the soil in this country than that under which they were at present suf fering, while he had reason to know that the agricul tural labourers had largely benefited by the cheapness of all the chief articles of subsistence. He had spent a por tion of the recess in the county of Wiltshire, a county by no means remarkable for the flourishing condition of its labouring population, and yet he had received there as unequivocal admissions of the improved condition of the labourers and of their families at the present period as any that had reached him from the north of England. But he repeated that, as regarded the prices of corn, wo had of late been living under very exceptional circum stances, and he should endeavour to prove that statement. The first feet to which he would call the attention of the House was, that the farmers of this country were at pre sent suffering, not so much in consequence of the harvest of 1849, or of the prices which were the result of that harvest, as in consequence of the bad harvest of 1848. Unfortunately we had in this country very scanty means of knowing the yearly amount of our agricultu ral produce. But we had data sufficiently accurate for the purpose of his argument. He found that the quan tities of cora sold in the 256 towns from which the ave rages published in the Gazette were taken, had been as follows in the last four years, each year commencing on the Ist of September, and ending on the following 30th of September: 1845-46 ... 5,929,788 qrs. 1846-47 4,995,518 1847-48 ... 5,450,631 1848-49 ... ... 4,298,901 It appeared, therefore, that in the year 1848.49 there had been sold in those 256 towns nearly 1,200,000 qrs. less than in the preceding year; and as the quantity sold in those towns was supposed to represent one fourth of the entire quantity sold in the country, the total deficiency in the sales throughout that year amounted to 4,800,000 qrs. Now, taking the value of that deficiency at 455. a quarter, which was the average price, the total loss t a the farmers in that way must have amounted to 10.000,000/. But the crop so sold was not only deficient in quantity, but was also deficient in quality; and the total loss which it entailed on the farmers, as compared with the produce of the preceding year, might, he believed, be fairly calculated at 15,000,0001. Th et was one ground fur his opinion that the present circumstances of the corn trade were of exceptional character. He should, however, further observe, that the greatest amount cf agricultural distress prevailed in those counties in which there had been the greatest deficiency in the crop of 1848. The average deficiency throughout England and Wales had been 20 per cent., but in Bedfordshire it had been 28 per cent.; in Cambridgeshire, 30; in,Suffolk, 25; in Worcestershire, 33; in Sowersetshire, 25; in Wiltshire, 22; in Berk shire, 26; in Devonshire, 40; and in Sussex, 45; so that in Sussex, where agricultural distress was at present most acutely felt, the deficiency in the harvest of the year 1848, as compared with that of the preceding year, had amounted to more than double the average deficiency of the whole country. During the same period wo had had an enormous importation of foreign-grown corn; but he believed no lion. Gentleman would contend that too much had been imported for the consumption of the people. Let it be remembered that, after that large importation we had very little corn left in our bonding warehouses. It was said, however, that foreign corn was displacing home-grown corn in our markets. But that statement could not be accurate, for in those 256 towns there had been 2,000,000 quarters of corn sold this year, as compared with 1,700,000 quarters sold last year. Now, let them look at the countries from which those large supplies of foreign corn had been received. He held in his hand returns showing the various countries from which we had derived our importations last year; and he believed that the details of those returns would show that the importations had taken place under circum stances which Isere not likely to be permanent. Perhaps the House would be surprised to learn that the country which had sent us the largest amount of corn last year was France. The following was a list of our importa tions of wheat from the chief countries from which we had last year derived oar foreign supplies:— Quarterr. France ... 742,023 Prussia ... 618,734 United States . . 617,131 Russia ... ... 600,375 Hanse Towns, and Rostock and adjacent ports 498,983 Belgium ... ••• ... 366,095 Holland ... ... 308,482 Now it should be borne in mind that notwithstanding our large importations from France, that country was itself usually an importing country; and that two years ago she had been actually compelled to se arch the whole world for the surplus necessaries for her people; and after having reminded the House of that fact, he thought he was justified in stating that that was an exceptional circumstance in our importations during the last year. As regarded the different countries he had e mentioued. he should proceed to inquire what had been in each of them the average price of corn during the last eight or ten years, in order that he might ascertain how their importations might influence the prices in this country. With respect to the United States, however, ho should observe that he had been un able to obtain any account of the average prices on which ho could rely; and he should, therefore, merely observe that the prices there were at the present moment above the prices 'in England, and that from a country with such growing wants and such a high rate of wages as prevailed in the United states we could not expect to receive large importations of corn, except in yeara when the prices here should become exceedingly high. But let them look at the case of France. From that country we had received during the last five years, the following importations of corn 1849, 742,023 quarters; in 1848, 320,010; in 1847, 179,259; in 1846, 73,774; and in 1845, 35,809. It therefore appeared that our impor tations of corn from France had last year reached a most unusual amount. HO held in his hand a return showing the average price of wheat in France since the year 1838; and that return he should proceed to read to the House. In 1838 the price had been 465. 9d. per quarter; in 1839, 535.; in 1840, Ms. 6d.; 1841, 43i. 6,1.; 1842, 465. 9d.; 1843, 495. 5d.; 1844, 475. 3d.; 1845, 475. 3d.; 1846, 575. 6d.; 1847, 695. 7d.; showing an average price for those ten years of 51s. 2d. per quarter. It was true, however, that that price had fallen in a most extraordinary manner during the last two years. He found that in the year 1848 the average price of wheat in France had amounted to only 395. 9d.; and in the year 1849] it had only amounted to 335. 9d. There had, therefore, been a fall, after the lapse of a single year, from 51s. 2d. to 335. 91 That, he felt jus tified in stating, could only be regarded as a very ex ceptional circumstance. It was well known that on an average of years France imported more corn than she exported; and he therefore said that our recent impor tations from France could in no way be taken as a cri terion of our trade in corn with that country. Then again, let them look at Belgium, from which our impor tations of wheat during the last five years had been as Qrs. 1849.. .. 306,098 1848... 1 7 8 , 399 1847... ... 27,469 1846... ... ... 3,063 1845... ... 983 Notwithstanding the large amount of those importations last year, Belgium was a corn importing country, and an Act was actually in the course of being passed in Bel gium for putting an end to a corn law which had been established there some years ago, in imitation of our former sliding scale, it having first been found necessary to suspend that law from year to year. He could not think that Honourable Gentlemen opposite need be alarmed by any large importations of corn we could re ceive from Belgium. He did not wish to say a word that could be considered d eroga t or y to th e c h arac t er o f the very industrious and inoffensive people of that coun try; but he certainly did not believe that they could prove very formidable competitors to the * English farmers. He found that in one of the most important districts of Belgium—the district of Malines—the aver age size of the farms amounted to only eight acres, while out of 13,000 holdings not less than 7,000 con sisted of less than two acres of land.—(Hear, bear, and a laugh.) Surely the English farmer, with his great resources, could meet the competition of a people so situated. He found that the average price of th e quar ter of wheat in Belgium during the ten years from 1839 to the end of 1848 had been as follows: S. 1839 ... 55 3 1840 ... ... 51 6 1841 48 0 1342 ... 53 0 1843 ... 46 9 1844 .. ... 42 6 1845 ... ... ... ... 49 0 1846 ... ... 58 0 184:7 ... 74 6 18 48 ... 43 3 Showing In average for tho ten years of 525. 2d. But, during th e Last three months, the average price of wheat in Belgiu at had amounted to no more than 38s. 311. Then, alp he said, they had to deal with exceptional cireumsta ni:es. He next came to Holland ; and from that coon ti y he found that our importations during the last five 3 43 ars had been as follcws Qrs. 1./149 ... •• • ... 308,482 1.1 48 . • •• ... 163,978 18 47 ... ... ... 11,800 18~ t 6 ... ... ... 473 18;4 '•5 ••• ... ... 1,614 In Holland. the average price of wheat during the last ten years 7,1 id been 54i 4d a quarter; and it was well known that that wr,s as importing rather than an ex porting co t to try. He should next pass to the importa tions from:Prussia and the surrounding districts, of which the gnat part was Hamburgh. Our imports from that aiskriet had been in— Qrs. 184) ••• ... 498,953 1 ;48 ••• ••• ... 532,559 1847 ••• ••• ... 154,839 184 6 ..• ... 126,573 18,45 • ... 154,271 The avera: ;sti price of wheat at Hausburgh from 1839 to 1848 had b tm— ••• 503. per qr. 1840 ... ..• ... 40s. 18 41 ... •,. 575. 18 42 ••• 365. 18 4-3 ••• ••• 355. 9d. 18 44 ••• 295. 18 45 ••• 18 46 51s. 18 47 •-• •.. ... 48e. 18 I 8 ••• 45:. showing an overage price of 444. 9d. But last year the average price had fallen to 375. quarter. It had been said that `wheat could be purchased at an exceed ingly low rate in Prussia Proper; but he found that in tb at country the average price of wheat on the spilt was 365. a quarter, while the average price at ~ :Dantzic was 495. 6d.; and allowing 4s. for the cost of freightage to this country, that wheat could not be sold here without any expense for landing warehouses, ,and other charges, at less than about 545. a quarter. Than again, he could perceive nothing is the price of corn in the ports of the Black Sea which ought seriously to Warm our farmers. But he might be asked to what he WO uld attribute the present low prices in this country ? To such a question he would, in the first place, reply, ill at they were owing to th e excess i ve l y hi g h prices which. had prevailed here in the y e ar 1847, an d which had giv,sn an unnatural stimulus to the cultivators of the soil Vas all the great wheat growing countries of Europe. In the second place, he must attribute those low prices, to. the convulsed state of Europe during the last few yeatei, which had deranged all the ordinary operations of commerce; and, in ,the third place, he would attrib'ste them to the alarm and the agitation which prevaeled amongst the agricultural classes, and which deterred capitalists from investing ther money, sti they would otherwise :have done, fa the purchase of agricultural rroduce. But after having taken a minute and careful ,survey of the whole of that bnbject, he felt convinced that the English farmer, from the great ad vantages wh;,ch he enjoyed in the possession of large capital, and proximity to the best markets in existence, could succe ss f u lly com p e t e w ith the a,griculturists of any other position of the world.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BUCK said that the free-trade law had been the cause of ruin and desolation not only to the farmer and the farmer's :%.ebourer, but also to the shop-keepers in the agricultural towns, and that much as they had suffered already he fenced that they would suffer more before a remedy Ras applied to their distressed condition. He had attentively listened to the speech of the Honourable Gentleman vtiho spoke last (Mr. Wilson), and he could not in it find anything that related to the resolution be fore the Hon so, but he should allow that it was in unison with the spe aches of those Hon. Gentlemen who, for the purpose of cnrrying their free-trade measure, travelled the country north, east, west, and south, and thus created division and difference between the landlord and his tenant, and when they failed in effecting this, they brought ruin. and disaster on both. He would appeal to their consciences, be would appeal to the honour of honourable men, and ask was justice done to the land lord, the tenant, or the labourer, by this measure of free trade? Did he need an answer he had only to look to the distress and dismay that prevails throughout all the agricultural districts of England, Scotland and Irelaiid. As to the predictions cf the Honourable Member, he, and he believed all of his party (the Protectionists), held them in sovereign contempt, for he had not heard one argument from the free-traders that had the slightest tendency to remove his fixed impression, or that seemed to wish to remove distress and desolation from the country. The alarm generally entertained, did not originate from a competi tion with the United States of America, but it arose from the idea of placing the free-born Englishman in competition with the serfs of Poland, a system that he feared would ultimately banish the pride and stay of his country to a foreign district, or f orce hi m to spend . the wretched rem; tinder of his life in a workhouse. He con tended that if proper encouragement were given by the Legislature, deist it would be found that there is not one labourer too in uch for this country, and that all could be, satisfactory to all parties, well employed. Again, he would call the attention of the House to the financial condition of the farmers, who state, that when they came to the examination of their accounts, they found that they had lost one. third of their capital since the passing of those destructive free-trade measure. Add to those losses the consequence of a bad harvest in this country, and of a good one abroad, and be would ask whet then would be the price of British produce ? He believed that it would be the means of reducing the price of wheat to the low sum of four shillings per bushel, and would also create regret in the late and present Go vernment, for persevering in so unjust a policy. They were told on the other side of the House that the poor rates were decreased, but he was in possession of a re turn which would show that everything tended to depress the landed interest. From all appearances he saw no reason to hope that the landed interest would be very much better next year than in the present; on the con trary, he apprehended they would be very much worse. The House should take care that they did no t, by th e i r acts, depress the labouring interest more than it was at present depressed; they should remember that it was to that interest that this country was mainly indebted for its greatness, and they might depend upon it. if they continued much longer to neglect that interest they w wo o u u l ld d f e a n il d . anger the monarchy, and th i s great country ". Mr. GRANTLEY BERKELEY felt that it would be presumption in him to attempt to reply to the arguments of the Right Hon. Baront t (Sir J. Graham), yet he felt that he would not be discharging his duty to those with whom he was connected, if he did not give some expres sion to his opinions on this subject. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that in the county of Cumberland the wages of the labourers were not decreased. However that might be, he (Mr. G. Berkeley) must say that the benefits of free trade, of which the Right Hoe. Baronet had so much boasted, had nut yet reached the counties of Gloucestershire, Wiltshire, and Hampshire. In those counties he knew the labouring classes were in a most distressed condition, and that the tenant-farmers had no alternative with respect to the employment of them but to discharge them altogether, or else em ploy them at half wages, and the lab ourers in reply to that expressed their desire to work at half wanes rather than be discharged. The Right Honourable Baronet had expressed his opinion that the' benefits of free trade would be felt in the " long run." Now, what the Right Honourable Baronet meant by the " long run"—(Laughter)—he could not say ; but this he knew, that it had already ruined the tenant-farmers. He (Mr. Grautley Berkeley) was a tenant-farmer himself, and he felt the bad consequences of free trade very • severely. With respect to the gentlemen of the " Man chester School," he must say to them that they knew no more of farming than he knew of the manufacture of cotton. To the Hon. Member fur Westbury (Mr. Wilson), who said he had adopted Wiltshire fir his county, he would say it mattered not whether he adopted Wiltshire, or Wiltshire adopted him. But this he must Kay, in reference to a statement of the Hon. Gentleman as to the excellent condition of the labourers in that county, that they were actually working for six shillings a week. With respect to the cotton trade Of Manchester, ho felt that the House and the country were not yet in possession of the real facts on that subject. And now he would ask, what 1,1 the Government done for the country 2: They had just done this—they had given the e noisy" gentlemen of the Manchester school " ginger bread" to stop their mouths, and had taken from the farmers the flour that made it.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member concluded by stating that he should give his sup port to the motion, from a sense of its justice and a con viction of its necessity. Sir R. PEEL said—Whatever other motives I might have for wishing to address the House on the subject which has been brought forward with great ability and with equal temperance and moderation, the necessity which I feel to take a course different from that which has been taken by my Right Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford is a sufficient reason why I should not wish to arrive at an opposite conclusion from him without explaining the grounds upon which that conclusion is based.—(Hear.) Fur my Right Hon. Friend I hare the greatest respect and esteem. I was associated with him in the preparation of those measures to the effect of which he partly attributes the conclusion at which he has arrived. From him I derived the moat zealous and effective assistance, and it is some consola tion for me to hear from my Right Hon. Friond that although upon this particular motion we have arrived at different conclusions, his confidence in the justice of those principles upon which ho contended for the com mercial policy which of late years has been adopted, remains entirely unshaken.—(Hear, hear.) Before I address myself to some remarks of my Right Hon. Friend I wish to state, with respect to the agricultural interest, that I do not deny that it is suffering consider able distress—(Heat:, hear)—that fur that distress I feel, on every account, the w arm est sympathy. (An H oer . MEMBER on the Opposition benches—" Oh dear!"— (Laughter and cheers.] I think the House will be of opinion that I take the most becoming course in passing by without further notice the inarticulate sounds with which the Hon. Gentleman has greeted me. — (Cheers.) I wish to consider this subject with the respect to which it is entitled from the rnaenitude of the interests involved in it.—(Cheers.) I believe those inarticulate sounds are about as powerful as what the Hon. Gentleman might say in support of them—(Hear, and laughter) —but I shall not be disturbed by thorn ur prevented from enter • in into the consideration of this subject with that tem per which ought to regulate this discussion.—(Hear.) I know not why the Hon. Gentleman should doubt my sympathy with the agricultural interest.—(Elear.) My own interests are intimately oonneeled with its prospe rity, and this I must say, that if any measures to which I have been party, however convinced I may be of the gene ral policy and general benefit which would result to the country from them, have affected any special or pecu liar interest with distress, the greater is the sympathy which I should feel.—(Cheers.) I say this also, that if it be true that the occupying tenants of this country are unwilling to reduce the amount of labour, if they are making exertions to prevent that distress from which they may he suffering from visiting those on whose labour they depend, they have on that account an additional claim for our respectful consideration of their distress.—(Hear, hear.) Ido not indeed, while I admit Oe distress that prevails, view it with apprehension aid despondency. I regret the condition of the agricultut al interest. I do'relieve there are special and peculiar causes affectitee that interest.—(Hear.) I think it was impcv ible to 17sten to the speech made in the course of to-night by the Hon. Member fin Westbury without feeling that there was a strong presumption that, at the present moment, there are peculiar causes rf depression and distress. I refer also to the frequent occasions upon which during the maintenance of protection Ca; Crown in the Speech from the throne spoke of the distress of the agricultural interest. But, as I believe that now, when protection has ceased, some of those causes which affected the agricultural interest during the existence cf protec tion are again operating, so do I trust that there will be a recovery now, and I do hope that those who profess to feel a deep interest in the prosperity of agriculture will not prejudice theircause and affect their interest by the pro pagation of endue alarm.—(llear, hear.) This course had been taken on former occasions. Now I see that course taken. I see professors of agriculture in Sc land telling the Scotch farmers, the producers of oats, that Indian corn can be introduced into this country at 12e. per quarter ; and that it is utterly impossible for them to compete in the market with the productions of the United States.—(Hear, hear.) They are giving them that information as to the price at which Indian corn can be imported at the very time when, instead of 12s. a quarter being the price at Liverpool, Limerick, Cork, or Dublin, you find that the price of Indian corn is fluctos'ing probably between 275. and 31s. per quar ter. I was not present during the early part of the speech of the Honourable Member for Northampton. shire. lam told that in that speech he made a personal appeal to me, and asked me on what ground I thought there was an undue depression of the price of agricul tural produce. I think there is, probably, an undue depression, because I find in commercial countries, and countries which have the advantage, if they consider it to be so, of protection, the same depres sion of price, and the same complaints which exist in this country. I find that the depression of price exists notwithstanding the markets of England have been open —(Hear, hear)—notwithstanding that th ere h as b een an unusual demand for that agricultural produce. I find in France, in Belgium, our nearest neighbours, each country having, until a very late period, a law giving ample pro tection to native produce, their agriculture extremely de preseed in price, and their occupying tenants complain ing of the impossibility of cultivating land. I say there does appear, then, to be pervading many countries of Europe the same cause of depression of price of which WO have complaints in this country. Whether or no some causes may not affect them, whether or no suc cessive harvest of three or four years may not have sti mulated production, whether or no the price of corn may not have been depressed by an unusual harvest following successive years of scarcity, I will not undertake to say; the fact remains unquestionable that in many coun tries of Europe, having the advantage of protection there were the same complaints of the lowness of prices and the distress of the agricultural interest. Since I entered the House two documents have been put into my hands which bear upon the subject. One is a trade circular, issued at Antwerp, dated Feb. 9, 1850, and it refers to the state and prospects of agriculture in that part of the continent. The circular says:—" At our to-day's market the trade generally ruled dull, and the turn in prices was in favour of the buyers, though we do not expect an important decline, the value of the corn being already too depressed to pay the rents of our farmers." The other document is a paper of similar description, bearing the same date as the former, and issued at Nantes. This circular states: —" Prices of corn are for the present very low everywhere in Europe, but, taking into consideration the good quality of some produces of our growth, and of our best brands of flour, combined with the low freight obtainable now, we con sider that our tnerket deserves the attention of every one willing to risk interest of money at a low rate a g ain s t the chacces of a rise, whilst a further decline is quite improbable, as needy sellers have everywhere disposed of their crops, and also noticing that the continuance of the present prices in this part of France would soon in volve the rum of the landed interest." Hero are two countries which have the advantage of free entry into the English market, combined with protection of native produce; and when I see it stated that in them the price of agricultural produce is depressed to such a degree as that it is alleged the farmers must all be ruined, it leads me to the conclusion that causes other than the removal of protection here have mainly contri buted to the production of our distress; and I say, also, it is probable that the same cause which has produced our depreciation of prices is operating generally throughout a great part of the continent. There is one circumstance which relieves my anxiety for the condi tion and prospects of agriculture; I witness with the greatest satisfaction the increasing consumption of the people.—(Hear, hear.) It is in the tendency to in creased consumption that I see not only an indication of general prosperity, but I hope also of improvement of agricultue. In the course of the last year, in addition to a great consumption of native produce, the people of this country have not only imported, but consumed and paid fur, by the produce of their own labour, 5,600,000 quarters of wheat.—(Sear, hear.) This consumption of foreign grain has not diminished the consumption of wheat of our own production. In 1849, as compared with 1848, there has been an increase in the consump tion of British wheat, and concurrently with that the enormous consumption of 5,600,000 quarters of foreign wheat his occurred.—(Loud cries of "Hear.") Ob serve, I do not speak of Indian corn, or oats, or rye, but of the noblest grain, nam'ly, w h ea t—h as there been this increased consumption?—(Cheers.) By whom has that wheat been consumed?—(hear, hear.) If we are seeking for proofs of the improved condition of the country, why need we refer to any other details? Is not the simple fact I have stated sufficient in itself to deter mine the point?—(Cheers.) 5,600,000 quarters of fo reign wheat have been imported, paid for, and consumed! —(Cheers repeated.) By whom? Not by the upper classes. I will venture to say that the quantity of bread eaten by the arisOcracy has little increased in amount.—(Hear, hear.) The quantity consumed in their establishments has little increased. Looking to the middle classes—to those who are in a state of compa rative affluence—the probability is that in times of pros perity their consumption of luxuries increases, but not materially their consumption of the great elements of human lite.—(Hear, hear.) No; this increase of con sumption has taken place in consequence of the better condition of those who live by labour.—(Cheers.) You cannot have an increased consumption of millions of quarters unless you have millions of mouths to eat them.—(Cheers.) I want, then, no other indication of general prosperity—excepting of course the agricultural class, whose distress I admit—l want no other indication of the general ease and increas ing comfort of the people than the striking fact that there has been an increase in the consumption of bread, and bread of the best quality, which is perfectly unpa ralleled in the history of this country.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, if you can only continuo that consumption — if, by your legislation, under the favour of Providence, you cart maintain the demand for labour and make your trade and manufactures prosperous, you are not only in creasing the sum of human happiness, but are giving the agriculturists of this country the best chance of that in creare l demand which must contribute to their welfare. I cannot but think that when we look to such masses of population as are collected in places like Manchester, Birmingham, rind the great iron districts—when we con6lder nnzt is the nature cf the demand for agricultural produce—that it is nut limited to corn, but extends to meat, milk, cheese, butter, and other articles—l cannot help thinking, I say, that, taking into consideration the capital and skill of our agriculturists, and, above all, .. - :the natural and local advantages enjoyed by them, they need not fear corrqetition with the agriculturists of any other country. —(Cheers.) When I gave my assent to the address in answer to the speech from the throne, it was not my be het* that the later cast any slight on the distress of the agricultural interest. I understood the speech from the throne to a lmit the existence of that distresii, and to ex- press sincere regret at the circumstance. If I had not put that con►truction upon the Royal speech—if I had thought that it was open to the objection of treating the complaints of the agriculturists slightingly, and imply ing that they were ill-founded and unworthy c.f notice, the address to the throne would not have received my support. I now apply myself to the speech of my Right Hon. Friend the member for Oxford University, and will proceed t) state the grounds on which I have come to a conclusion different from that at which he has arrived. My Right Hon. Friend takes up the motion of the Hon. Member f Buckinghamshire, and says he is at perfect liberty to dismiss all ex trinsic considerations connected with it, and to consider it only as an abstract proposition . Now, there I differ from my Right Honourable Friend. It it is all very well to say to a young Member of this House, " I make a proposal for the House to resolve itself into Committee, in which the whole quest ion will be open for consideration. Go into Committee; hear my proposal; reject what is objectionable, and modify what is capable of modification. Do this , a nd you will conscientiously discharge your duty; and, even should you agree to no part of my proposal, you will at least have the merit of showing your sympathy for the farmer." But what constrection will the occupying tenant and the agricultural interest generally put upon the motion of the Hon. Member? How may their hopes be excited with respect to it? I must do the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire the justice to say that he is not chargeable with any attempt at deception.—(Hear, hear.) But lion. Members must consider the circumstances under which wo are discussing this question.—(Hear, hear.) I am not now certain what was meant by the amendment to the address on the first tday of the session; but I thought that th© issue taken on that amendment was whether protection should be renewed or not. The Hon. Member for Northamptonshire has to night fairly stated that that was the issue then raised, and that, th e Lords and Com mons h av i ng de cided the question n the negative, he does not advise his friends to occ upy the House with n ee dl e ss debates, which must end in nothing. In fact the Hon. Member evidently looks upon the question of protection as de eided.—(No, no.) I do not mean decided permanently; but I am sure that if the Bon. Member who cries No" had heard the speech of the Hon. Member fa. North amptonshire, he would have inferred from it that, as far as the present Parliament is concerned, he deems the re vival of protection hopeless.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire now makes a motion for the purpose of giving the agricultural interest the COM. pensation to which he thinks it is entitled on account of the removal of protection. Last year the Hon. Member contended that the amount of burdens unfairly borne by the landed interest, including the land-tax was not less than 14,000,000/. This session the lion. Mem ber, with per fect propriety, comes forward and says—" I will not, on this occasion, brirg forward my extended scheme—l con • fine my proposition at present to the removal of taxation, unfairly bearing on the agricultural interest t the ex tent of 2,000,0001 .; b ut d o not b e d ece ived—this is only the first of a series of measures—(Herr, hear) —others will follow incorporating the same principle, and after you have consented to these measures, I will avail myself of the earliest opportunity of renewing the pretsctien to which the agricultural interest is entitled.--(Cheers.) The Honourable Member has given us distinct notice that the success of his present proposal will not close the account, and that it is not a measure ith which the agricultural interest oncdst to be satisfied; that it is only a partial and a small instalment, and that if we pay the int.taltnent he will prosecute the claim f,l. the rernaindt r. —(Cheers.) My Right Honourable Friend, therefore, cannot say that he is d ceivcd by this meet' es hear.) Now, let ns see what the proposition of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire is, Rod whether its adoption would really be,ictit the class for whose ad vantage it is intended. I wish to consider the proposi tion relatively to its hearing on the finances of the country. The proposel made to us is this, that previously to any exposition of the financial condition of the country by the Chancellor of the Exchecuer we shall by a vote of this Honsc determine that 2,000,000/ of fee e . tion shall be placed as a charge on the Consolidate Fund. For the sake of simplifying the matter I will assume that the balance in the Exe'requer is exactly 2,000,0001. I beg the House to consider the effect which the success of the Hon. Member's motion must base upon the financial prospects of the year, and also whether it would benefit the class which it is intended to serve. I am asked to con sen t t o t h e fi rst of a series of measures whichimmediately appropriates the whole of the surplus of the present year, and prospectively appropriates the surplus of several succeeding years. Is this course of proceeding desirable even for the interest of the class whose cause the Hon. Member advocates, and which I , admit to be labouring under embarrassment? I under stand that the Hon. Member has declared out of this House that one great source f rom w hi ch he anticipated relief to the agricultural interest was the maintenance of public credit, thereby lowering the rate of interest, and giving landed proprietors facilities for re lieving themselves from the charges to which they were now subjected. Although I differed from the Hon. Member as to the mode by which he would constitute a surplus, yet I thought there was great force in the sug gestion. If, without augmenting taxation, you can maintain public credit, support the price of the funds, and thereby diminish the rate of interest and enable the landed interest, by perfectly legitimate means, to relieve itself from a portion of its difficulties, you doubtless achieve a great object. My Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey said, the other night, that we ought to have settled the mortgage question before repealing the corn laws. Is he going to settle that question by destroying our surplus?—(Hear.) My Hon. Friend, of course, meant it to be understood that the landed interest have heavy mortgages upon their property, contracted, let me observe, under a system of protection.—(Hear, hear.) What a picture of landed property did he draw! He pictured to us estates so overburdened with debt that their owners could have no alternative but to sell their property. From what period do these incumbrances date Can there be a stronger argument against pro tection than is furnished by my Hon. Friend's account of the present condition of landed property ?—(Hear, hear.) Admit the account to be correct, you want to enable landed proprietors to borrow money at three per cent., in order to pay off mortgages which are now car rying interest at ai or 5 per cent. Is the way to do that to tell the fundhelder that all the surplus of the present year shall be appropriated, and not only that, but to give notice that whenever we have any surplus for some time to come, it shall be appropriated in like manner, and the amount charged on the Consolidated Fund ?—(Cheers.) I regretted to hear my Hon. Friend speak so lightly of the maintenance of public credit. Let me tell him that if any measure should be adopted whicb would have the effect of destroying con fidence in the funds and in the maintenance of public credit, it would furnish but a short-lived triumph. The same blow which strikes the public creditor will reach the landed interest.—(Cheers.) Looking at the bear ing of the proposal before us upon the financial condi tion of the country, it would be a most precipitate anti unwise act on the part of this House, in the absence of any official exposition of our financial state, to appro priate the whole of the present surplus, and to pledge itself to a principle involving the appropriation of the surplus of future years. There are two questions to be considered—first, whether we shall maintain a surplus and thereby raise the price of funds and benefit the agri cultural interest in the way suggested by the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, by enabling them to borrow money at a low rate of interest, and, secondly, in the event of its being determined not to maintain a surplus, how shall we apply it in the remission of taxa tion so as to confer the greatest amount of benefit on all the interests of the country, the agricultural interest in cluded? But the proposal of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire would at once preclude me from enter ing upon the consideration of those two questions.— (Hear, hear.) My Right Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford desires a revision of taxatior, and says he hopes to see the duty on timber, and the duty on bricks repealed at an early period. How can be hope for that if he leaves no surplus?—(Cheers.) Without a surplus, how is it possible to make a re mission of taxation? How can you remit taxes which undoubtedly bear upon the agricultural interest if you pledge yourselt to transfer charges borne by real property to the Consolidated Fund? I must say that there are considerations of the utmost importance connected with the question of the reduction of taxes. Look at the duty on bricks. I must declare, most re spectfully. to the agricultural interest that it; by any transfer of taxation to the Consolidated Fund, you pre clude the Chancellor of the Exchequer from fairly con sidering whether or not the duty on bricks can be re pealed, you are taking a course most injurious to your own interest.—(Cheers) See how unfairly the duty on bricks operates in different parts of trio country. ' Those parts cf the country which abound in coal, and have also the advantage of stone, possess every facility for the construction of houses. Other parts of the country, possessing no coats, and having no command over stone, are obliged to depend upon bricks ; and a heavy excise-duty interferes with the building of houses for the poorer portion of the community. If we could get the duty on bricks removed, at a cost to the Exche quer of 600,0001., it is my deep conviction that the agri cultural interest would be more benefited thereby than by the success of the present proposal. All real property would benefit by the repeal of the brick duty. Look at the influence of the duty on the sanitary condition of towns—a subject to which public attention is closely di rected at present. I cannot conceive that anything would tend more to the improvement of towns than the removal of this duty. The direct interest that the agricultural classes have in enabling the landlord to improve the farm-buildings of the occupying tenant, has also been adverted to. I do believe that that improvement of farm buildings by the landlord, far the advantage of the tenant—for the preservation of implements and for the feeding of cattle—will be one great cause of agricultu ral prosperity—(Heir, hear)—that it will be of the utmost importance.—(Hear, hear.) But these benevo lent designs of the landlord are now counteracted by an Excise duty on bricks— (Hear, hear.) What has been the consequence of the removal of Excise du ties ? Why, you are not to estimate the advantage merely by the relief from the pecuniary burden. You have the officers of Excise interfering with your operations—(Hear, hear)—the regulations pre• venting the construction of the article except according to a certain size —(Hear)—there is the constant fear of a prosecution for fraud—there is the impediment to , the exercise of ingenuity.—(Hear, hear.) Remove the brick duty, and let them make bricks without requiring their being nine inches long, and so many inches wide, and so many inches thick—(Hear, hear)—what an im mediate direct advantage would the agricultural interest derive from such a removal of a pecuniary burden, and from such an encouragement to the exercise of industry. —(Hear, hear.) Now, I don't know whether Hon. Members generally have tread the papers laid upon the table almost since, or not above two or three days before, the Hon. Gentleman made this motion—papers relating to a question of vital importance to the condition of the country—l mean the operation of the law of settlement. —(Hear, hear.) The consideration of that question will be forced upon you. It would be premature to enter upon it now; but I wish you would read the able reports that have been made by the gentlemen who have been instructed to inquire into that subject, and you will understand the difficulties which arise at present from the want of cottages for the labourers in certain districts.—(Hear.) You will see what is the effect upon the health and comfort of the labouring poor from the very imperfect dwellings in which they now re side.—(Hear.) You will find accounts that, in some instances, labourers come to the farm on which they are employed upon donkeys, in consequence of the distance of their residence from the place of their employment.— (Laughter, and loud cries of "Hear.") These things are not, and I am sure they ought not to be beneath your consideration.—(Cheers.) If such is the condition of the labourer, that in order to have employment upon one farm there are more than twenty donkeys upon which the labourers ride to that daily employment—(A laugh)—it may be a subject for ridicule, but it is one that suggests topics for very serious consideration.— (Cheers.) There are other men whose strength is exhausted by the length of the distance which they have to come to labour; and others are forced into villages where they are paying 41. or 51. a year for their houses. — (Hear.) Well, encourage the construction of comfort able cottages by removing the brick duty.—(Cries of " Hear.") Alter your law of settlement, so that there shall be no discouragement to their Sliding those etcom fortable habitations.—(Hear.) Consider the tlement in conjunction with other matters. B la u w a tk o y s f o a u admit their importance—if you admit_ they are p by a sudden series of important considerations, d m o not the consideration vote to-night preclude yoursel t f h from ! h on e of taxation.—(Hear, hear.) bc whetherasrpreispeaking you n u g may o f • a not advance the In e pbyresaewntisentaretemoisfs upon the extent to which e ssi t on g o iv f e ta a x il a y ti o o p n in c i a o n n public revenue, I certainly , the b r e e f ro cr i wait to hear the financial statement of period. Next year the the Chancel s lo h r all of the Exchequer .—( Hear, hear.) We peculiar ace qUestion of the income-tax must be brought under re etew.—(Hear.) It may be of the greatest importance to reserve for consideration whether it shall be con tinued ; if continued, what shall be the modifications made in it. But by the decision of to-night you will compel the continuance of the .you do not, d of " No," and "Hear, hear.") Nay, but if then you mean to revive the import duties upon food. —(Hear, hear.) I entreat my Right Hon. Friend to consider that. If you mean not only to appropriate the surplus for the present per, but the surphie of Atm years, and also mean to take a course which shall his pause with the income-t ix, then indeed you do manifest what is your intentu.n—(Hear, hear)—urged by my lion. Fritnd the Member for Surrey (Mr. H. Drum mond), that upon every article imported from foreign countries there should be a duty.—(Hear.) Those views of my Hon. Friend must be carried out if you appropri ate your surplus and also refuse the income-tax.— (Hear, hear.) But my Hon. Friend says that the great struggle is between capital and labour, between money and Ilft • It is an epigrammatic way of stating his views. —(A laugh.) Ile is the great advocate for labour against capital, and for life against money. And what is the practical course which he advises us to pursue? To re move the ta xa ti on f rom capital and to place it upon labour.—(H ear , b ear.) Nay, more—my Hon. Friend says, " I never will be satisfied until the labourer can hake his own bricks, collect his own hops, brew his own malt." Welt, then, w hy won ' t my lion. Friend " never rest satisfied" unless the iebourer can eat his bacon without paying e duty if h e gets it from abroad—( " Oh!' and" Hear, hear )—nd his bread a l so ?—(Cheers.) The advocate for labour against capital, for life against money, the man who says, "we never shall hear the last of it until the labourer can gath er hi s own hops from his hedge and make his own bricks," won ' t a ll ow us to reties the duty upon bricks.—(" Hear," and dissent.) I say you are tnkiiig a course which makes it impossible for you to do sc.—(Hear, hear.) If indeed you say you are care less about public credit—(Hear, hear)—you may do all these things; you may appropriate surplus and repeal im.:otne duty also; but I say you will make it impossible to maintain your obligations to the public creditor if you make these extensive alterations.—(Hear.) But now let us ate what this proposal will be so far as the interest of the occupying tenant is concerned. I will make ne dist:netion between the occupying tenant and the owner. My belief is that the occupying tenant would, for the present at least, derive some benefit from this measure. I do believe that there is, on the part of the landed pro prietors, that feeling towards their tenantry which would lead to that—(Hear, hear)—even if, according to the strict rules of economical science, they might be en titled to increased rent.—(Hear, hear.) I will waive any advantage to the argument, then, upon that point; I will admit that this is a plan from which the occupying tenant might derive advantage; but let us estimate the full amount of his profit. This is also a proposal to re lieve, not the land, but real property, from a charge W which it is subject; the charge I assume to be 2,000,0001., which is to be transferred from real pro perty to the Consolidated Fund. Just let us consider some of the circumstances connected with this. As has been said repeatedly, this is no tax upon land exclue sively—it is a tax upon real property; and the propor tion in which land has contributei to this tax has been gradually diminishing; in consequence of the increasing prosperity of commerce and manufactures. that portion which falls upon other descriptions of real property has been increasing. If you bad made an es timate with respect to the payment of these 2,000,00 a in 1826, when the land paid 69 per cent., you would ha,* f , und 1,380,0001. of the 2,000,0001. paid by the land; in 1833, 1,260,0001.; in 1841, 1,040,000/.; and in 1849, only 900,000/. of the 2,000,000/, would be paid by the land.— (Hear, hear.) So that since 1826, in consequence of the improvement in manufactures and eommeroe, and the increase of houses, there has been a gradual tendency, as things have existed and as they now continue, to re lieve the landed interest by t rans f err i ng this charge to other property. There is an increase of population; there is a diminution of charge on account of the poor, a diminution of charge owing to the diminished price of provisions; there is the reduction of the price per head of those you maintain, from 13s. to is.; there are abate ments of the charge upon the land; but at present, of the charge of 2,000,001)1. you will purchase a remission of 900.000/. for yourselves by relieving another descrip tion of property to the amount of 1,100,0001. Now, will you let me elk you what claim for relief has that other description of property?—(Hear, hear.) It is not land; no doubt it is real property, but it consists of houses, of mills, and manufactories, the owners of which have been directly benefited, according to cur own ad mission, by those recent changes in your legislation.— (Hear, hear.) Up to the present hour we have beard that the landowners have been sacrificed to the mill owners; that the Manchester school have been predomi nant; that they have gained great advantages; that the reduction in the price of provisions has been for their exclusive benefit. Well, in order that you may gain a remission of taxation yourselves to the amount of 900,000/. a year, you are going to relieve others whose position i 3 directly opposite to your own—namely, the owners of this other description of real property,who have benefited by this legislation, from larger burdens they are now bearing—burdens which are constantly increas ing upon them, to the reduction of those which are borne by you. Now, what reason i 3 there for this? Aud will the occupying tenant be benefited by a change which is cerainly to remove 900,0001. from the land, but which will remove from this other description of property 1,100,0001. that the occupying tenant with others must make up by taxation?—(Hear, hear.) What is the amount of the benefit which any occupying tenant can receive? I admit to you, for the sake of argument, that the benefit is exclusively for him and not for the land lord. What is the amount of it? It is about 3d. or in the pound—but he will have to beer increased taxe tion in order to make up that transfer of the 1,100,0001. to the Consolidated Fund.—(Hear, Lear.) What, then, is the position of this ocupytng tenant ? You are pre venting the consiitei a ion s.f a remission of the tsxes which bear upon him ; you are going to reduce the amount of his present payments to tr e extent of 3d. or 4d. in the pound, but that advantage must be diminished by the increased charge which he will have to bear in order to make up far the loss caused by the tram fer of the 1,100,0001.—(1Iear. hear.) It is my firm persuasion that the occupying terant will derive no benefit wha'- ever—(Hear, hear)—none whatever which can compen sate him for the loss to which you are about to subject him.—(Hear, hear.) I say, therefore, that this proposal is in itself an impolitic one, even so far as it concerns the interests of those whom it is especially ietinded to tenefit.—(Hear, hear.) My beliet is that agriculture— the landed interest —the occupying tenants will find their advantage much better consulted by leaving it open to consideration whether any remission of public taxa tion shall be made which unduly presses upon them, and that can be removed, than by merely taking this small per-tentage upon what they pay, aed preventing the consideration of all those other questions which are of so much pressing interest. So far, therefore, as their interest is concerned, I decidedly object to the proposal. I object to it upon another ground—that it is a reversal of that financial policy upon which we have been acting for some time past.—(dear, hear.) I must maintain that in 1842 the apportionment of public taxation was most un just; that Jasour was unduly burdened; that there was scarcely an article which entered into the consumption of the poor man which was not heavily charged; the cheese, the butter, the bacon, the pork, everything that he consumed, if brought from a foreign country was sub ject to high taxation.—(Hear, hear.) The price of those articles has been reduced, according to your own admis sion. Reduced by what? Reduced, I presume, by free competition, by the unrestricted import from foreign countries of that produce upon which he lives. Now, your are about to remove from real property a charge of 2,000,000/., and tainaposeit upon those whose condi- lion You cousidered in !x43, whom you thought unduly aggrieved by the pressure of texation,whorn you sought to relieve, whom you did relieve, and whose affection and gratitude you received in return.—(Hear.) Some com plain of the tea duty, others of the soap duty, others of the window-tax; you are preventicg the consideration of all these questions by appropriating this surplus. You are preventing the relief which it might be pos sible to give—relief much mere valeshle, much more extensive—by transferring this charge from tee quarter where it is at present borne, and placing it upon the consolidated f e ud. I object to the justice of that trans fer.—(Bear, hear.) Ido not say tl.at there may not be some burdens now borne by the land in respect of which there might not be relief ; I admitted in 1816 that I thought the land was unduly burdened, that I thought the apportionment of taxation was not just.—(Hear, hear.) I attempted to give relief by transferring the whole charge of criminal prosecutions, the whole charge of the Irish police, half the charge of medical relief, the charge of schools, to the consolidated fund. Well, lam not prepared to say that full and complete relief was given in that respect—(Hear)—l am not prepared to soy that the charge for vaccination, or the militia, or the registration, does not fall within the same principle. But I know this—that you would laugh at me if I were to go into the Committee which the Hon. Gentleman moves, and then to say—as my Right Hon. Friend pos sibly may—" I think there is a capital case made out for the vaccination charges being transferred to the consolidated fund, but, I am sorry to inform the occupy ing tenant that I have no other relief to give him." (A. (A. laugh.) Even if I were to say that lunatic asylums are within the same principle, and the charge for them might properly be transferred to the consolidated fund, I know that I should hear from farmers that I gave a most decisive proof of being fit to be en inmate of ono of these asylums by making such a'proposition after the hopes which had been excited.— (Laughtt r and cheers.) Sir, my main objection to this proposal is, as I said, that it is a reversal of our financial policy.—(dear, hear.) I believe the welfare of this country is intimately connected with the ofindus tryrelitefe from taxation.—(Cheers.) Ibelie o v n e hnenre promote is no ti more powerful instrument by which contentment atio3 and peace and a swfaheo live t i o ywith labour your l legis llation, it we, s - the lauded proprietors —that the aristocracy of this country are willing to subm it to an y sacrifice which sh a ll e relieve from taxation those articles upon which they than by convincing those s depend for subsiste nce.—(Hear, hear.) I believ e you thaa,vaeroensped the full advantage of the remission of such ti : (Hear, hear.) I believe you have had during the last three or four trying years more contentment, more submission to privation—(Clear, hear)—more un affected loyalty—(llear, hear)—more of refusal to listen to the designs of seditious men—(Hear, hear) — .f men agitating for their owe benefit—(Bear, hear)—than you could have expected under any other state of things.-- (Hear, hear.) The burdens you may intend to impose may be light; this " first of a series of measures" may in a small degree affect the labour and industry of this country; but you will be alarming those who labour by the indTatiou of repentance as to the course you took.—(Hear.) The relief you give will be Lund inadequate; there will be a fresh demand; your intention of subjecting to duty everything which comes from foreign countries will be fortified by the proof of the little advantage that you will derive from this small modicum of relief ; and you will probably end, if you are strong enough to pre vail, by the re-imposition of duties, if not corresponding in amount, at least in principle, with those which were removed in 1842, and by the system of commercialpolicy which hal been since adopted.—(Hear, hear.) I ear neatly and sincerely deprecate that course.—(Hear, hear.) I deprecate it as unjust in itself—(Heer, hear) —I deprecate it as impolitic from its tendency to shake confidence in your deliberations. — (llear , hear.) Sir, I have been for the last three or four months exposed to charges, as the House is well aware—to the revival of charges of haring acted ItufaitkfUllY Ind treithrously