The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. • -HOUSE OF LORDS, feb.ll.- The LOAD CHANCELLOR took his • seat on the Wool sack shortly after. Five o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS. On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY it was ordered that the House should not receive any peti lions for private Bills after Tuesday, the Bth of April, and the House should not rec lye any report of the judges on such Bills after Thursday, the sth of June. CHARITABLE TRUSTS. The Lord CHANCELLOR said, that in consequence of a question that had been put to him last night by a Noble Marquis (Normanby), he thought it right to state that it was his intention in a few days to introduce -a - Bill making some alterations with respect to Charitable Trusts. The Duke of WELLINGTON said that the other Bills that had been referred to by the Noble Marquis must originate in the House of Commons.' BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. The Marquis of - NORMANBY said ,that, with refe rence to the Bills which must originate in the House of Commons, he only hoped that the two Houses would come to some arrangement that would prevent much of the loss of their ardships' time, by the crowded state of business which came before them, after a great majo rity of their Lordships had left town—(Hear, hear) — when there *as no proper time to give the measures their due consideration. Ho found that, in the month of February, only two Bills had been brought up ; in March, three • in April, one ; in May, five ; in June, nine ; in July, fifty-two ; and during four days in August there hadibeen no less than twelve; so that in point of fact, in the four last days there had been Bills brought up to which their Lordships could give no at tention, as their attendance was given elsewhere. The Noble Duke would recollect that his suggestion most re spectfully tendered was, that he (the Duke of Welling ton) should call the attention of the Government to the subject, with a view to mitigate the evils to which he had alluded. In the House of Commons they were aware that during the latter part of the session Bills were brought in one by one, read a first time, then thrown upon the table. there to remain till the month of July. It was a matter of the utmost inconvenience to themselves; it inflicted the greatest injury on the credit of the House, and threw Impediments of no common character in the way of the efficient discharge of the business before their Lordships. The Duke of WELLINGTON assured the Noble Marquis that he had no doubt but the most satisfactory explanation would be given by her Majesty's GOvern ment for the course they had pursued on this subject. - LONDON COURT OF BANKRUPTCY. Lord BROUGHAM, in rising to present a petition on the subject of the proceedings that had taken place before the Commissionrs of the Court of Bankruptcy of the City of London, said there had been very serious complaints made by many persons of the mode in which the public busi ness had been conducted in that court. He did not by any means intend to convey, that he had any charge of malversation or incompetency against those gentlemen ; quite the contrary. He believed that more able men could not be found in the legal profession, or men better qualified in any way to fill the situation to which they had been appoint. d. II s petition was entirely confined to complaints as to the delay and inconvenience to which suitors had been put by the non-attendance of the Com missioners in their court. It would appear by the in formation he had received that none of the Commis sinners attended in the court oftener than three days in the week ; that some of them did not attend so often; and that one of them attended only one day in the week; and for this di-charge of their duties they received about 2,000/. a-year. Ile begged to assure their Lord ships that he would not only not present this petition to day, but he would not present it at any time, if his Noble and Learn AI Friend the Lord Chancellor would give him reason to hope that this mode of doing the public business by those Com missioners would be altered, and that they would attend in their respective courts at times in proportion to the amount of business to he done. The LORD CHANCELLOR regretted that his Noble and Learned Friend had thought proper to pre sent this petition without a: first having given him notice of his intention, in order that Le (the Lord Chancellor) might air , rd.the Commissioners of the Court of Bank ruptcy an opportunity of giving such an explana tion of the eharg. s it contained as they might be in a condition to offer. The charges contained in the petition were of a very grave and serious character, and therefore it would be only fair to give the Commis sioners an opportunity of explaining ; and, for this purpose, if his Noble Friend would let him see the peti tion, he (the Lord Chancellor) would put himself in communication 'w;th those gentlemen on the subject. He believed that those gentlemen had been appointed by the Noble and Learned Lord himielf. Lord BROUGHAM said he had it from under the hands of the parties themselves that their attendance in court was not more frequent than he had stated. The LORI) CHANCELLOR—It was true the Commissioners did not sit in court very often during the week ; but then it should - not be forgotten that a great deal of their tabour was gone through out of the court, in the same , way as he (the Lord Chancellor) did his own business, and he could say, with great truth, that he had much more labour out of his court than in it. Lord BROUGHAM had been told that as many as thirty or forty cases were upon the paper every day, and it was therefore impossible to get through that amount of business unless there was more punctual at tendance in the court. The LORD CHANCELLOR believed the cases could not be so numerous, though he understood they did amount to fifteen or sixteen. Lord BROUGHAM—Oh, more, much more. The LORD CHANCELLOR had no doubt but the explanation of the Commissioners would be perfectly satisfactory. Lord BROUGHAM hoped it would be most satis factory; but hitherto their attendance had been most unsatisfactory.—(Laughter) lle had heard of many persons who had to come and go a long distance each day for several days, owing to the Com missioners not having sat, and the consequence was a very great increase of costs upon a very small estate. Lord CAMPBELL (addressing himself to Lord Brougham) said he was very glad that his Noble and Learned Friend had postponed his petition on the sub ject, for it did contain a very serious charge—(" No, no." from Lord I3rougham). Well, it at least contained charges of delinqu• miss. (Here Lord Brougham looked sip at Lord Campbell, and !scanted at the same time to the Lord Chancellor, amid some laughter.) Those gentlemen had been appointed by the Noble Lord him self, and they certainly had shown themselves most able and learned men in their profession. Lord Brougham then handed the petition to the Lord Chancellor ; and their Lordships adjourned till Thursda•-. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 11. The SPEAKER took his seat shortly before Four o'clock. NE IV MEMBER. Sir T. FaEmANTLE took the oaths and his seat for the borough of Buckingham. RAILWAYS. An HoN. lliotnEn, whose name we could not catch, presented a petition in favour of the Newcastle and Ber wick Railway Bill. MEDICAL REFORM BILL. Mr. -GODSON presented a petition from the medical practitioners an I others, inhabitants of the borough of Kidderminster, expressive of their approval of some of the provisions of the Ministerial Medical Reform Bill, and of their disappreval of other clauses of the same measure. BANKING SYSTEM OF SCOTLAND. Mr.. MAiAULAY presented a petition from the Chimber of Commerce of Edinburgh, declaring them selves in favour of the present Scntch system of banking. which had existed for th e l as t cen tu r y an d' a h a lf , a n d had been found to work so well and satisfactorily, that the petitioners prayed that no alteration be made in'the Aystcm. RAILWAY BILLS COMMITTEE. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET moved' for' a Se lect Committee to inquire into the best mode of consti tuting Committees on Railway Bills in the present Ses sion of Parliament, and of the most expedient manner in which Railway Bills having relation to similar objects may be brought under the consideration of the same Committee : —Lord Granville Somerset, Sir G. Grey, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Wallace, Mr. Strutt, Viscount Howick, Lord Harry Vane,, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Greene, Mr. Ewart, Mr. Col quhoun, Mr. Shaw, Mr. Hodgson Hinde, Mr. Pakington, and the O'Conor Don. OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH. Mr. BRIGUT presented numetous petitions from places in Lincolnshire, Yorkshir... North Devonshire and other counties against the sale of spirituous liquors on the Sabbath. THE GANIE-LAWS. The How. MEMBER also presented a petition from a Mr. Williams, a gentleman residing in Wales, against the game-laws. MEDICAL REFORM BILL. An How. MEMBER presented a petition against this measure. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. WALLACE gave notice that on the 25th inst. he should move for a return of the amount of business transacted in the Court of Session of Scotland, and the number of Judges composing that Court. The Hon. Member al o gave notice of his intention at the same time to move for leave to bring in a Bill to reduce the rancher of Judges in that Court . - LEGISLATURE OF CANADA. futmurreitC)E"CK gave notice of his intention, a dtY, to move for a return of the Acts passed by the Le gislatite Assembly of Canada, during, as we un derstood, th e past year. GRAIN. M_lL v E o S,.7,:v v e a n_o o t u i ee of his intention, on a future day, importation of gr ri aim s returns respecting the prices and ECCLESIASTIC AL CO MMISSION. Mr. EVELYN DENISON, ISSION seeing the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of Stateforh t Depart ment in his place, wished t o ask him e Home would be prepared to furnish the House with enwhat day he the r e t urns moved for last yea - , relative to the Oclesiastical Com mission. He trusted there would be nou nnecessary delay - in laying them before the House, bec a use it might so happen that he should feel it necessary to bring the subject formally before the House. "Sir JAMES GRAHAM, who spoke in a very low tone, said the returns to which the Hon. Gentleman alluded were in a forward state of preparation. They had been prepared with more than ordinary care, and he had no doubt they would give the Hon. Gentleman every information on the subject. Before Easter he fully anticipated, not only being able to lay the returns moved for on the table of the House, but also some ad ditional accounts which had been rendered by the Com• missioners, and extending to the end of 1844. • • POOH-LAWS (SCOTLAND). Lord DALMENY said he wished to put a question to her Majesty's Government on the subject of the Scotch poor-law. It would be remembered that a few lIMII THE SLN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FF.TIRITARY years back the state of the poor in that part of the kingdom was in a deplorable state. Various remedies were proposed, but ultimately her Majesty's Govern ment, in preference to adopting any of them, ap pointed a Commission to inquire into the matter. The Commissioners were invested with full powers to investigate the causes, and to suggest such remedial measures as might strike them as being advis • able to meet the exigencies of the case. The Commis- sioners had detailed the results of their inquiry in a re port which had been laid before the House. They fully went into the evidences they had taken on the subject, and suggested a remedy. Now the question he wished to ask her Majesty's Government was whether they intended to bring in any measure for the alteration or amendment of the Poor-laws in Scotland, and in the event of their entertaining such an intention, whether such measures would be founded on the recommendations contained in the Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire nto the subject, and which was laid on the table of the House last session? . Sir JAMES GRAHAM was not at all surpr ised that - - _ the Noble Lord, as a Scotchman, had taken in this ques tion the interest which he evinced, for he (Sir James Graham) was satisfied that he could not exaggerate its importance.—(Hear, hoar.) Since the Noble Lord — although he had not made an argument—had made a statement, perhaps he (Sir James Graham) would be excused if he made one also. The Noble Lord and the House would remember that the code of _ laws to which the Noble Lord's question referred had lasted more than two centuries, and it had been cited as an example of the wisdom of the Legislature, and until a recent period it had been cited as an instance of the prudence, caution , sobriety, and —as he might say—the morality of the S c ottish people. —(Hear, hear.) If a change in the law were proposed by any Government, he would advise that Government to exercise the utmost caution before it recon.mended the Legislature to make any change in that law under which the people of Scotland had risen to great pre-eminence in the arts, in science, in literature, in com merce, in agriculture, and in productive power. The altera tion of such a law required the utmost caution; at the same time, he (Sir J. Graham) must say, that the anxious attention of the Government had been directed to the evidence which had been collected by the Commission. He was himself of opinion that, on the whole, some legislation in reference to this subject was required— (Hear, hear)—but at the same time he was not able to say at present the precise time when her Majesty's Go vernment would be prepared to submit any measure on the subject to the House—for it was necessary that such a measure should be prepared with great care. He was not able to say what time might elapse before they could be prepared with the measure which they should consider perfect, and therefore he was not in a condition to say more than that he thought it would be his duty to bring in a Bill on the subject of the poor in Scotland in the ceurse of the present session. The conversation then dropped. PRIVATE BILLS. A number of Members were then excused from serving on committees on private bills, on the ground of being above sixty years of. age. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER applied to be excused from serving on account of official duties. —Agreed to. Sir J. GRAHAM applied for exemption on the same grounds.—Agreed to. RAILWAY COMMITTEE OF THE BOARD OF Trade, with an addition to its number. if the report in question were carefully examined, and the evidence which was very voluminous, were carefully road, the House would find a premeditated scheme for conveying from that house to the Board of Trade the right of deciding in the first instance, and indeed, for good and all, upon all questions con nected with railways that came under consideration. One very important and extraordinary part of the re commendation of the Board of Trade to this Com mittee of their own manufacture was with respect to the publication of the decisions in the Gazet Owing to this publication all the confusion, injustice, speculation, and gambling which ensued had taken place. had this publica tion been deferred until a complete statement could be made, none of these evils would have taken place. He begged leave to submit for the consideration of the House a document, which he felt convinced would have great weight in influencing the decisions of Hon. Members, and would induce them to give their support to the motion he was about to make—that the Bill be repealed which was now law in the respect he complained of. He was about t:o lay on the table of the House a statement of the rates of speed and of the fares charged on the railway between Edinburgh and Glasgow. The distancewas 46 miles, and the highest rate of speed 27 miles an hour. There were four classes: the charge on the first class was Bs., about 2d. per mile, the rate of speed 27 miles an hour. The second class, which travelled at the same rate of speed, was 6s. On the third class, which travelled at the rate of 15 miles an hour, the fare was 2s. 6d. ; on a second description of train, on the third class, the fare was 2s. 6d., and the rate of speed fifteen miles an hour; on the fourth class the rate of speed was fifteen miles an hour, and the fare ls. 6d., or four-fifths of a halfpenny per mile. Thus, in this class, forty six miles were performed for ls. 6d. The low rates of fare, and the comparatively quick travelling was owing to an effective opposition, not in the shape of railway, but from a canal, and thus the greatest boon was conferred •on the humbler classes, whilst the mode of travelling was at once safe and convenient, and the shareholders amply recompensed. He did not wish to lead the House to suppose that he intended to say that his countrymen in Scotland had any greater desire to benefit the poorer classes than the rail way proprietors in England. The same feeling actuated the railway proprietors both of England and of Scotland. They neither of them cared one straw for the lower classes where money was concerned. If they could screw money out of them they would.—(A laugh.) They. were, in that respect, like the First Lord of the Treasury, who once a year took out of their pockets all he could get- The next railway to which he would draw the attention of the House was the railway between Glasgow and Greenock. The distance was twenty-three miles, and it was performed by the fast trains in fifty minutes. The rate of the first-class was ono penny farthing per mile, and for the whole twenty-three miles they paid 2s. 6d. The second class, the carriages of which were closed and nearly weather tight, and which, except that they had no cushions, were nearly as com fortable as those of the first class, ran at the rate of three farthings per mile per passenger, the charge for the whole distance being Is. 6d. The third class, which travelled at the rate of thirty miles an hour, carried passengers at the rate of a halfpenny a mile. They went the whole distance in fifty minutes, and charged one shilling. The working men in his neighbourhood frequently went to their work by this train. When the men had more lei sure and less money, which, until the last six months had been unfi irtunately frequently the case, they went by the fourth class, which travelled at the rate of seventeen miles an hour, performing the whole dis tance in one hour and fifteen minutes, at the rate of one farthing a mile, charging aixpence for the whole dis tance. The House would understand that railway travelling was conducted -at a cheaper rate, and with greater comfort and safety to the pas sengers, and in better carriages than it was in most of the railways in England. Ile was not aware if cer tain returns which he had moved for in relation to rail ways had been laid on that table. His Noble Friend, the President of the Board of Trade, had promised that they should be so, but he believed that they had not yet been laid before the House. Ile would next draw the atten tion of the House to the railway between Edinburgh , and Greenock, which united the Atlantic ocean with the . German sea The distance was seventy miles, and the first class performed that distance in two hours and twenty minutes, and the fare was 10s. 6d. The fare of the second- class was 7s. 6d., being at the rate of 2d. a mile ; by the third class, the fare was 55., by the third class, No. 2, it was 3s. 6d., and by the fourth class it was 2s. So that, if it should happen that the Queen should visit Scotland next year, as he hoped she would, if she came to his side of the country her Majesty could be conveyed by railway from sea to sea, in two hours and fifty . minutes, for 10s. Gd. There W.IS another advantage—sailors might pass from port to port, a distance of 70 miles, for 2s. He would just state to the House the difference that existed in the fires between Edinburgh and Greenock, and those be tween Bristol and Exeter. By the Edinburgh line, the first-class fare was 10s. 6d., but on the Exeter line it was 17s. The second class on the Edinburgh line was 7s. 6d., and on the Exeter line I Is. 9d. By the third class in Scotland the charge was 55., and on the Exeter line it was ss. 9d., but upon this line they had no third class No. 2, or any fourth class at all. Ile believed that the penny-a-mile system had been rendered unavailing by the course which had been pursued by railway compahies. He believed the third-class trains were invariably started at the most inconvenient hour for the working classes. On those metropolitan lines upon which persons could travel from one end to the other and back again on the same day, the third-class ' trains were so arranged as to prevent passengers re turning on the same day, The consequence of this ar rangment was, that the working people, if they required , to return on the same day. must either go by the second or first-class carriages. This, indeed, was part of the plan of all railway companies, by which they were striv ing to obtain a vast monopoly. (Hear, hear.) . ' This had been shown in the amalgamations of railway companies which had taken place, and which were being projected. The Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from the Railway Times of the 16th of No vember, 1843, on the subject of railway amalgamation. Now he (Mr. Wallace) was there to contend that amal gamation was against the interests of the public. IHe was the advocate of competition, and he did not ob j ect to competing lines running in a ' parallel direction to existing Companies. In order to promote a competition between lines of railway, he should propose that the companies should be required to give in tenders of the cheapest rate of con veyance ; and referred to the course adopted by the Earl of Eglintoun with respect to the directors of the line between Glasgow and Ayr. There were three dil -1 ferent ways of securing comp( tition if they would only set honestly about it. And if no man voted against him who had an interest in railways, he should be sure to carry his resolutions. In a notice he had given, he had alluded to evidence given on this subject last Year ; and he would now advert to the estimates published in a pamphlet entitled " Railway Reform," Which appeared anonymously, but was written by a gentleman named Galt, who had done him (Mr. Wallace) the honour of calling upon him. This gentleman made several calcu lations, founded on the reports of railway directors According to these calculations the amount for carrying a first-class passenger ought to be 24. Bd. for every Hun dred miles, for the second class Is. 3d., and for the third 10d. This was calculated upon evideace which no one had contradicted, nor did he believe any one was pre pared to contradict it. Railway matters, in his opinion, ought to have been submitted to a different tribunal than the Board of Trade. A Commission ought to have been appointed to inquire into railway projects, and then the Board of Trade would have been em ployed in a very different manner. Large masses of minerals were at present conveyed over some lines, and this he thought was extremely objectionable, because it made railway travelling inconvenient, and not unfre quently endangered the lives of passengers. NoW, he thought railways running through populous districts, or coming . to such places as Lon don, ought to be excluded from carrying goods of a heavy description. He did not object to the carriage of light goads or luggage, but it was exceed ingly unwise and inconvenient that coals, stone, or the produce of mines, should be suffered to pass over the same line as immense numbers of pas se s, gers. Ile thought the Board of Trade would have been well employed if they had considered the effect of changing trains and carriages at the different towns where any particular line terminated. In his opinion, there ought to be a uniformity of carriages, in stead of, as at present. changing the carriages at an intermediate station. He had always looked upon rail- Ways as public property, but the companies with which he was acquainted had conducted them merely as private speculations. Now, a railway was most certainly public property, and public property too, of an im portant character, and ought to command the increased attention and vigilance of the Legislature. No sooner, however, did a company obtain its sill than the comfort or convenience of the public was ne glected ; and nothing thought of but what was termed " turning a penny." Now this, everybody must admit ought to be well Wised after by the Legislature, for Comparies would then not be suffered to take:an undue advantage of the public when they found out there was no othi r means of conveyance but their particular railway. He would say that in justice and common sense the eoun try ought to insist on that competition which they had a right to demand, and which they might have had at first. The volume which he held in his hand had been lent to him. It contained the report of the Committee of last session, and other important matters relating to rail ways, and as there were 250 railway prajects coming before the House, that book would be exceedingly useful, and he was very glad to see that it had been printed. Competition was not altogether new in rail ways. It had been tried, and with every success, by running the same trains and engines on different lines. Perhaps it might not be known to many Members of that House that the Grand Junction and the Birmingham Railway Companies had agreed to allow each other's carriages to run over both lines. No inconvenience had arisen from this arrangement, either to the companies or to the public. The House bad an example by which the public could be greatly benefited. That proposal was not novel to the House of Commons; he held in his hand a Bill which was brought in on the 13th of June, 1836, by the Hon. Member for Inverness. This was for the revision of the tolls, and it was received with great favour in the House, and a promise was given that the attention of the Government would be directed to the sub ject, but since then it had been put off from time to time. In the year 1837, a Bill was brought in by persons who were then in as high places as those were who brought in the Bill of last year. He believed that Bill was brought in by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Taunton. There was a clause in that Bill of very material moment; and, had the -- Government not abandoned their own proposal, they would have a dif ferent state of things -at that moment. What he pro posed was, that an experimental set of railway car lieges should be constructed and placed under the ma-, I negement of the Post-office, so that it might be ascer tained with certainty what was the cost, the rate of ra pidity of the carriages, and the beat mode of conveying goods and passengers , The Hon. Gentleman then re ferred to a speech made by the Hon. Member for Inver he read an extract. D ire s e'n i t u ire th ly e co y n e c a t r ir l r B e 3 d 7 in frm that which he which he had heard with great pleasure ; and he would be glad to find there were many more of the same opinion. What had been done by the Act of last session ? That Act bound them to protect for 21 years all the monopolies which already existed ; making no allowance for the increase of population, which could not in that period be much less than seven or eight millions. Nothing could be more absurd than to allow railway companies to go on upon the present system for so long a time. He held in his hand letters from various people, w hi c h he had received since he gave notice of his motion. All of them complained of the first-class carriages, though, if possible, still more of the second. He could not but think the neglect of the House to make some provision with respect to second-class carriages had been a very serious omission. He insisted that they had a perfect right that no causes should be allowed to operate which could be injurious to the health and safety of the people. He betisted without hesitation that there was no class of carriages so injurious to the health of the people as were the second-class carriages, as they were now fitted up. He believed that morbid diseases, and more illness had been created by the defects of these carriages than by those of all the ether modes of conveyance. He had, however, letters from various quarters complaining also of the ineffiiceney of third-class carriages. It was alleged that the provi sions of the Act had not yet been fulfilled, and that even if they were, though the effect might be beneficial in winter, such -carriages would be intolerable in sum mer Another complaint was, that they had only bpro vided one train each day at a penny per mile. He gs, which should take the liber t y of reading to the House two letter Bbem ham. the ir st in One was the letter of 1 homes Johnson, (Thehe selected au of Hon. Member ec then seth r e e y ad we th re e letter.) The author stated (as we understood), that having travelled on the London and Birmingham line he had found the third-class carriages so be ex tremely comfortable. In travelling, however, by the Great. Western line, on the 23d of January, in a third class carriage, he had found it so constructed that the passengers were much exposed to the weather, and on subsequently taking his place in a second-clasa carriage, he found that that also was miserably cold. The writer sincerely hoped that the House would take some measures to make the Bill of last session effective. The Hon. Member then read a letter from a gentleman in London complaining of the course pursued by the railroads with respect to the third-class car riages ; a course which prevented the poor from en joying the benefit of them, as they could not go to a place and return from thence the same day. Th e writer suggested that two third-class trains should run every day, and by that means a great benefit would be given to the poor, as they could then go to and from a plate on the same day. The Him. Member would not trouble the House with, another letter he had from another party, but he felt bound to call the attention of the Government to a petition from Hastings , praying that better accommodation might be granted by rail way to the poor. He thought the petition well worthy of the consideration of the House. He had another petition from a class of men, numerous it was true, but whose claims were but too seldom at tended to—he meant the working-men of England. They had represented; in the most distinct and forcible manner, that their safety, their health, and security to their property—that their time should not be wasted for the purpose merely of putting money into the .pockets of the different railway pro proprietors. He had not had time to look at the returns which had been laid upon the table, and therefore he intended saying not one word upon the subject. He thanked the House for the attention they had paid to him, and for the kind ness with which they had listened to his statements on this subject lie was not personally interested either one way or another in the matter, further than as lie had already stated to the HoUse—namely, that he believed, in every particular, what he had sub mitted to the House. He begged. therefore, in the terms of his notice, to move that leave be given to bring in a Bill to repeal the 'Act of last session, commonly called the Railway Act. Mr. EIVART said that he agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for Greenock, that the subject of railway communication was one of the most important that could be brought before the notice of that House. His Hon. Friend had referred to the constitution of the Board of Trade, and on that subject he (Mr. Ewart) en tertained a very strong opinion since the very first founda tion of that Board. The Hon. Member had alluded to the policy of Government's taking tenders for the formation of different lines, from different companies. That mode he (Mr. Ewart) thought might do well enough for France, but he much doubted whether it would do equally well in this country. He entertained a very strong con viction, which had been further strengthened since the establishment of the Railway Bciard, that it was most in expedient for Government to interfere either one way or the other. He believed that if Government were really desirous of introducing benefits into the present railway system, they could do so by making the Board of Trade not a Board of control, but a Board of reference. Were that Board to consist of a small number of members — impartial and independent men, who might, when ques tions arose upon such - scientific: subjects as required a more extended knowledge than they could give, refer to persons appointed for the purpose—then that Board would be a greatly improved one. He did not like calling in the assistance of Government. It was a pain fultuelement,tio n.. HtalilsyHaot Hon. Friend hwithad alludedth eprinciples of th e c i onst petition of railways upon the same line, and he cited the case of the Grand Junction and Manchester line, but those companies ran in conjunction, and therefore that did not establish the fact that it was possible for com peting parties to rue upon the same li ne . He held that the position assumed by his Hon. Friend, th a t it was impossible there could be competing trains o n the same line of railway was fallaciou s . I t was i mposs ib le t h at such could be the case, and in the instance to which his Hon. Friend had alluded the trains had been run, not by the competition, but by the concurrence of the rival companies. In the third place, his Hon. Friend had alluded to the policy of reducing the charge for pas sengers. All the evidence which he had seen on 'the subject induced him to come to the same conclusion. In the last report of the Grand Junction Company, the Directors stated that while they had lost by the re duction of the fares by the first and seccnd class, they had greatly profited by the reduction of the fares of the third class. He believed that it would be found that the same rule applied to railways that applied to every other branch of commerce—that it was always for the profit of those concerned ih it to consult the interest of the largest class of consumers. Last year when his Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade had introduced his Railway Bill, he (Mr. Ewart) had felt most ominous forebodings as to the working of the measure. He doubted whether any good could possibly arise from re ferring these measures to a Committee of the Board of Trade. When the Board of Trade was first instituted, Mr. Burke had expressed , his doub ts as to whether any good could possibly arise from the i ns tit u ti o n of .a board for the regulation of trade. He (Mr. Ewan) doubted whether any good could arise from any institution for the regulation of railway traffic. He believed that board could not stand. If it was necessary to have a board for the purpose of consultation, it should be merely a board of reference to assist a Parliamentary Commit tee, if required. He did not believe that the direct in terference of any Government, body in such matters could benefit the country. Lord HO WICK had not last year opposed the Govern ment Bill. On the contrary, he had voted for that mea sure. At the same time, he heartily concurred in the opinion that had been expreised by the Hon. Gentle man, that the subject was one of the deepest importance to the country, and that it was their duty to take mea sures to secure to the public the advantages of greater facility and greater cheapness in railway travelling. Hitherto the measures eithich . had been adopted had been ineffectual for that purpose. The public had not hitherto received that benefit from this invention which they ought to have obtained. He also agreed that the pre sent session afforded an opportunity for dealing with this subject which ought not not to be lost. They would soon have a multitude of Bills before them, and before theY created such a vast mass of vested interests and rights, they ought to come to a decision as to what mea sures it would be eecessary and competent for them to adopt, in order to secure to the public the greatest pos sible advantages from railway communication. The Hon. Member for Dumfries had stated that all that was re quired was the improved constitution of the Committees. Mr. EWART—Not all. Lord HOWICK—WeII, the chief point urged by the Honourable Gentleman and by the Noble Lord opposite, was to alter the constitution of these Committees, and the mode in which that object was to be gained. He agreed with him in thinking that the improvement of the constitution of these committees was very'desirable ; but he did not think that it would be possible, by any reform of,these tribunals, to provide a satisfactory mode of disposing of the immense mass of railway business which came before Parliament, , unless some greater change was adopted than had been hitherto suggested. It appeared to him that whether Parliamentary com mittees or the committee of the Board of Trade were en trusted with the disposal of such an enormous amount of property—while competition for contending lines of railway was so intense, while the amount gained or lest by the adoption or rejection of a Bill was so great—no c mmittee, Parliamentary or otherwise, could deal with such enormous interests. The determination was not which was the best line of railway communication, but which out of two, or three, or more conflicting companies was to have the benefit of constructing a particular line. The competition at this moment was so great that the mere fact of any particular line be.ng sanctioned by Parliament, elevat ed the shares to a ver y large premium. Twenty five p ound shares, out of which 11. 10s. or 2L had been paid, would bring a premium of 161. or 18/., or even a greater a mount. When the de cision of a Parliamentary Comm ittee affected to so vast an extent the public interests, the utmost care should he taken that the public interests should be the chief object of such decisions. It was nut a question of mere law or rights they had to decide upon. but a question of public convenience, in which a number of conflicting reasons weighed one against the other, so that no two minds could arrive at the same conclusion. He believed it was impossible to create any autherity that could dispose of this question, in which there would not be broarht to bear, in some shape or other, influence or favour in money or money's worth. This would happen, or would be thought to have happened. The experience of Parliamentary Committees proved that this was the case. This inconvenience it would be impossible to avoid as long as the two questions--What was the best line of railways, and who were the parties to execute that line, were united? it therefore seemed to him that there was something in this matter, as they might perceive, by looking at the example of a neighbour ing country. They all knew that in France the first point determined was what should be the line of sea way, and that was determined quite irrespective of any particular company. and on a sober and d.spassionete consideration of what the country required. When that was determined, the next step was to call upon ca pitalists to send in their tenders of the terms on which they would propose to execute the line. Now, why should we not adopt something of the same kind here. He would trust any authority of this description, pro vided the right of const:ucting the line was not con ferred on the parties who were to benefit by it. Having got the line laid out in this manner, the next step was to call on rival companies to, send in proposals as to the mode of making it. He held with the H. Member for Greenock, that the principle of tender might be safely introduced here. They might call on the diffe rent companies to say, if they constructed any particu lar line, at what rate they would charge ; what sort of trains, and at what speed they would send them on the line ; and, in short, what extent of accommodation they would afford the public, and what it would cost. Having got these tenders, nothing could be more easy than to give the construction of the line to the company which could afford to make it on the best terms. It appeared to him, that by the adopting of some such seheme, as this two great advantages would be obtained —(Hear, hear) In the first place, he belfeied that they would get rid of many difficulties and dispose satisfactorily of disputing railway lines ; for, where the consideration of the beat line through the country involved immense pecuniary interests, they must, be dispassionately end impartial': reflected on. There would also be the further advantage secured to the public of a very much cheaper railway accommodation than they , could obtain by other means. Nuw he would just give an illustration of his argument, and it would show them the result of the system they were now adopts ing in respect of some of the great lines. The House was aware there were several lines: 7 he believed in nu-o ber three—prokcted, connecting London with the north, and terminating in the city of York. There were three propositions of that kind now before the public, and it was understood that whenever one of these com panies obtained the preference, or at all events the moment they got their Bill through Parliament, their shares would sell at 201 premium. He was speaking within bounds, for 251. was the lowest amount of pre mium to which the affair would advance, and here they saw the result of their decision in favour of one of these lines would be to put into the pockets of one set of inet: a sum amounting to upwards of 5,000,0001. sterling. Now, was it possible, that where such a great boon was to be made, that any party could safely be trusted to make that boon at their own discretion ? Was it pos sible to suppose that any body, be it is hat it might, and constituted as it might be, having such gigantic pswer —having so vast • boon to make—would not be be sieged and blockaded on all sides with applications for information?—(Hear, hear.) Independent of this, it was impossible that we should not have, as we now had, gambling to an enormous extent, in London. Manches ter, and Liverpool—to an extent not only frightful itt demoralising.--(Hear, hear.) After all, if this passed, not only would there be great public inconvenience, but the public would be at the mercy of the companies. The latter would make what charges they liked. But sup pi 'se the Legislature would say, that they would not de cide in favour of one company, but one line, and offer that line to public tender, for the various companies who might offer to compete for the line. The companies would put in their tenders, stating at what cost they would execute the work, what accommodation they would afford to the public, and what rates they would charge. That tender would be open to the eyes of all the world. There would be no gambling, suck as was now carried on to so fearful an extent. Speculation would find its proper and legitimate field in the fair competition of capital. It could not be doubted that under such an ar rangement the companies could complete the lines, and carry the public at a cheaper rate than was at present attempted. For what was the fact ? He would suppose the Bill had passed for the railway between London and York. The capital subscribed, was five or six millions. The shareiwould rise in an heir forty or fifty per cent.; for it was true that there were people in this country who would be willing to pay seven millions and a half, calculating that, though the works would cost only five or six millions, the company would be able to extract from the public a scale of rates which would equal the average profit on a capital of seven millions and a half. If only 5,000,0001. were embarked in the work from which the income was to be derived, in that case there would be a considerable reduction of fares; and that re duction, in his opinion, be large, because they knew, as his Hon. Friend near him had stated, that the actual re ceipt for the conveyance of passengers was small, com pared with the fares charged, and they knew that a con siderable reduction of fares very often scarcely made any, and sometimes no reduction in the profits, be cause the number of passengers increased in proportion. If the Company, therefore, considered what was the lowest amount of fares they could take, there was no doubt that a very large reduction of fares might be ac complished. If they applied this principle in the pre. seat session to the new lines of railway which were to be brought before them, they would not only cause them to carry a greater number of pas sengers than they otherwise would air', and afford a greater accommodation to the public, but would also in the most legitimate manner exercise a comprehensive supervision in existing railways against which they would not be able to struggle, which would force them to reduce their fares—s(Hear, hear)—because it was obvious, 'Wring at the net-work of railway lines by which the country was now covered, that all the lines wet e' more or less competing lines, and if a large number of the new lines with which they were to be occupied this session were required to lower the rate of fares, existing companies would of necessity be obliged to do the same thing.—(Hear, hear.) That was a more proper way to bring down the fares than, the Bill of last year.—(llear, hear.) It might be said, in answer to him, that he Has advising the House to adopt a new system. The system was pursued in France, and it might be asked how he could advise a course like that, when the circumstances of the two countries were so much different. France being behind most countries of Europe with respect to railway enterprise; whereas the progress which had been made in England within a few years was absolutely marvellous. At the. commence • went it might have been necessary to give some stimulus to railway enterprise, but the circumstances were now completely altered. Now, instead of stimulating such speculation, it was highly desirable it should be modified. Parties now rush blindfold as it were into such specula tions. There was a mania in tee public mind, which it was important for the sake of the national interest they should endeavour to modify and check. He be lieved that by deal.ne. with Railway Companies as he suggested they would have a prospect of satisfactorily disposing of the mass of railroad business coming before thorn this session. He was aware that that was not the occasion to enter into a subject so large as that now be ore them ; but as it was his conviction that it was not only extremely important, but extremely urgent, that they should not:lose a moment in investigating, and thoroughly looking into the subject—when they must determine what was to be their course before these Railway Bills proceeded farther—he was induced t' make these observations, and there were very few more which he had to add. In the first place, he would dis pose of one or two objections which might be urged against the course he advised. It would be said, that it was unjust when particular parties displayed their in genuity in making out lines of railway, that the execu tion of those lines should be taken out of their hands. It would be most unjust if they were not remunerated for what they had done, but at present they had no claim whatever. Those Companies were not yat created by Act of Parliament. They had no right whatever, but they were perfectly at .libertv to create them or not ; and it was perfectly open to them to say that these lines would be made, and to say, " but you are not the parties to make it." They said that they should be well paid for all trouble and expense in laying out the line, and bringing it into Par liament ; but that they had no claim whatever to ask to be the parties to he entrusted with it.. The House would decide what should be the proper remuneration; and any company taking the line should pay that expense. Ia this manner justice would be done to the projectors without abandoning the suggestions that had been thrown out. He thought that to some extent the principle he had stated might be applied to branch lines, and leaders, as clauses, might be inserted in Bills, limiting the rates of fares proposed to be charged.—(Hear.) These principles were adopted last year by a Com mittee that met to decide conflicting lines, and all the members of the Committee agreed that the subject they had to consider was, which of the lines afforded the best accommodation to the public. The tables of fares of each of the companies were put in, and the one that made the lowest table of fares was de clared to be the successful line. The same principle might be applied to competing companies in the present session. 'He thought the public could not obtain proper competition by creating two lines of railway having the same object in view. lie hoped that during the present session the House would not pass any Railway Bill without strictly looking into the table of fares. The only way in which they could do justice to the public was,to look strictly at the tolls and fares that were to be charged. He hoped the suggestions he had thrown out would receive some consideration from the Right Hon. Baronet. How, then, were they to decide upon the 248 projects which his Hon. Friend had informed the House awaited its decision? It altogether passed his (Lord Howick's) comprehension. How could Parliament, he said, give the subject that attention which its import ance deserved? How could they satisfy themselves which of the numerous projects were the most deserving of support? How could they even constitute the re quisite number of Committees to inquire into these schemes? How find time for the remarks of counsel eegaged, and how, in fine, could the House deal with the 258 schemes, saith the cumbrous machinery then in use. It was important that the really useful projects Hould not be delayed beyond the present seassion. she for one deprecated any postponement of these matters in the strongest terms. If the House considered the inconvenience to the public of delay. the loss to capi talists by the employment of funds laid aside for these purposes, the rick that that capital would be transferred to other countries, and for the furtherance of other schemes—if the House considered these things, then, in deed, they would see the necessity for as speedy a set tlement of these plans as possible. lie admitted that the difficulties surrounding the subject were almost over whelming ; and those difficulties would be increased by the delay he deprecated. He threw out these few ob servations in the hope that they might suggest some satisfactory mode of deali g with the question. It was with that view only that he had taken up the time of the House, and he fervently recommended the subject to the immediate consideration of the Houss. Colonel SIBTHORP had the misfortune not always to agree in the general policy of the Noble Lord. and on this subject he certainly did, not agree with him. He would ask the Noble Lord how it wit* that, at the ele . TRADE. Mr. WALLACE rose to call the attention of the House to the several reports made by the Select Com mittees on Railways ; to the appointment of the Board constituted by the Board of Trade on the 24th day of August, 1844, for the transaction of railway business, and to the nature and effects of its public decisions on the interests of the country;•with:the view to the revision and amendment of the Railway Act of last session, and to move as follows • I. That it is the inherent and constitu tional right of the inhabitants of Great Britain and Ireland to travel through their own country by the nearest way and at the cheapest rate, on the best roads which may be provided for them, by the voluntary in vestment of private capital, and this whether the roads -be formed of iron or other materials. 2. That the investment of capital in roads, with a view ' to profit by the toll dues taken thereon, is of very recent date, and coincident only with the introduction of rail ways. 3. That the principle on which railways are con structed is not a discovery of modern date, being known to the country from time immemorial in the form of tram-road, composed of both wood and stone, and there • fore not entitled to any unusual or peculiar advantages. 4. That whereas railways can now be constructed at leas than half the cost they formerly were, the rates and charges should be reduced accordingly. 5. That it has been recently stated in this House that the Railway I Committee of the Board of Trade have had returns to show that the • passenger traffic on those railways sub ject to the penny a mile clause, by the operation of which the third-class fares throughout the kingdom have been reduced from 2d. and id. to ld. per mile, being a reduction equal to from 30 to 50 per cent., has ' been effected with great advantage to the people, and without injury to the in comes of the respective railway companies. 6. That it is in evidence before the Select Cornmitte on Railways of Session 1844, that third-class passengers asay be conveyed at moderate rates of speed, at a cost not exceeding Id. for every 15 miles. and that at present passenger fares are charged on different railways at prices varying from 3d. to Fl. per mile for the several classes. 7. That travelling by railway has now become nearly the only mode of conveyance for the inhabitants of this country, whether rich or poor, and, therefore, until a careful inquiry has been instituted into the cost of construction of railways, and expense of transit, by some competent tribunal, clothed with due authority to prosecute such, and report upon the same to this House, it is not expedient, with a view to the interests of the people, and justice to the railway companies, that the rates, charges, and modes of conveyance requisite to preserve the health, and secure the comfort and con venience of passengers travelling by railway, should be settled for a lengthened period—that leave be given to bring in a Bill to repeal the Act of last session, 7 and 8 Vic., cap. 85, commonly called the Railway Act. The lion. Member said that in rising to lay before the House the resolutions of which he had given notice, it was not his intention to enter into any accusatory ob servations with regard to the Committee of the Board of Trade, but should adhere strictly to the terms of his notice. He bad been in communication with the Right Hon. Gentleman, formerly President of the Board of Trade, the Noble Lord who at present presided over it, and the other members of the Board, by all of whom he had been received with the greatest respect ; and he would take this , opportunity of assuring the House that his objections did not apply personally to any member of the Board, than whom no one could have been more considerate and kind. But the question he was about to submit was one o greater importance to the people of this country ea ea than those measures which the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury intended to introduce on Friday next. He conceived that by the Act of last session the people of this country had become entirely surrounded with a net-work of the most obnoxious character, and were now subjected to a mono poly of a most grinding and painful description. He should also prove, as far as he could by statistics, the truth of what he was about to submit to the House, but he would not pass on to the subject without stating in the outset that he considered the Committee of the Board of Trade was entirely contrary to what was con stitutional in this country; that it was not by any means regular, but, on the contrary, extremely irregular. They undertook duties foreign to the objects for which the Board of Trade was constituted. Their proper functions were to regulate the commercial transactions of this country with other countries. Though he now brought forward the present motion, he was ready to confess that he had voted for the Bill introduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the 'late 'President of the Board of Trade ; nor would 'he deny that he did so for the purpose of opening some channel by which at a future time he would be enabled to prove the effects of the injurious monopolies which had been woven through the best interests of the country. He believed' he spoke the sentiments of nine teen-twentietbs of the people of this country when he stated that they did not desire to be subjected to the tyranny and loss of health which they were obliged to suffer from the way in which the directors of railroads had chosen to manage their busiress. He held in his hand an important document from the Noble Lord who now presided over the Board of Trade. That document contained a list of all the companies which bad given notice to the Board of Trade of their intention to come before the House. That document came down to Bth February, 1845, and it appeared by it' that the applications for new lines, extensions, branches, &c., amounted altogether to 248. He believed that the Board of Trade had gone in a contrary direction to what the interests of the country required. They were not sanctioning new lines of railway, as would be seen from the papers to be laid on the table of the II ouse Though he could not speak to the reasons, the fact was. that they were discouraging competition, and thus depriv ing the people of this country of a free trade in railway conveyance, without which they must virtually become the slaves of the Railway Directors of Great Britain and Ireland. It was objected that competition was an ex tremely difficult thing to secure. He had gone through the reports of the various Railway Committees of that House. The first Com mittee was appointed in November, 1837, on a motion of his own, in which he was supported by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, from which time to the present a Committee on rail ways had been appointed every year. In 1837, only two persons were nominated as members who had any interest in railways—a director and a shareholder. In 1840 the number of persons interested in railways belonging to the Committee was increased to three. But in the year 1844 the Right Hon. Gentleman, then President of the Board of Trade, proposed to the House a list con taining no less than twelve persons, who were either directors or shareholders in railways. The House, as well as the country, would, of course, judge whether that Committee was what he (Mr. Wal lace) termed it at the time, a one sided Committee, or a fair and just Committee, fitted to take into consideration and deal with such vast and important interests. He termed it at the time a one-sided Commitee ; he did so now. He maintained that the resolutions and proceedings of that Committee were utterly unworthy of the respect which had been paid them. From that time forward he b v e .e, l ur i t e le v tri e ny d tah t t h el e atrhni most n s i t re perfect distrust had been felt by the c t p h o e rt r reports extremelyof that at good principles Committee.T laid re down; most excellent facts were alleged as to the dangers t.) p l u et i h sh em ed. to Th override of monopoly, and of th e ev il s of extending the powers of vv r h r .i e e l of railway companies, s o as enab and overthrow the privileges of th e p eop l e. But these all disappeared when the sth reportwasbi of that report was to the effect that it was incumbent on that House to select some board or:other, and that that board ought to be constituted of the Board of a, 1845, tenth hour, he should have introduced suugestions, and recommended measures, that A-4,uld have been so much more in place at the period when railway speculations first commenced? He agreed with the Noble Lord that it would, indeed, be exceedingly diffieu:t to find in that House impartial individuals— MeMbers uneonnectt.d either directly or indirectly with these schetnea. Be al ould like to see the subject fairly investigated, and therefore he had en a former night asked the Noble Lord the Chancellor of the Dnehy 'of Lancaster, how far these five gentlemen—Men of character they were—he granted they were Tn. n of integrity—how tar they were con nected with railwayi? These gendemen must found their opinions on party statements, themselves having no Knowledge of the country through which the prOectcd lines were intended to . pass. Be would ask the Noble Lord who had suggested improvements in the system, if he himself was totally free from prejudice, or from a connexion with' some of these projected lines ? For, himself (Colonel Sibthorp) he had never been, and would not. be connected with any railway ; and ' for this• reason, that, if called upon by that House to sit as a juror on some of these projects, he might at least he an impartial one. His Lordship had, he (Colonel Sibthorp) believed, corre sponded with a Mr. HO, on, and 'objected to some line recommend , d by that gentleman, on the ground that it would be near his Lordship's residence, Howick Hall, and that, therefore, on that account, the line, however well suite to the wants of the district in other respects, was inadmissib'e. With these remarks he would con clude, but he hoped that' the Noble Lord would explain his reasons for delaying the suggestions he had been pleased that night to make. Mr. GISBORNE said, that the Bill of last session had been considerably modified in its passage through that House. and at last it had been passed by a sort of tacit compromise between the opposing parties. He thought, therefore, that. the policy, embraced by it ought not rashly to be interfered with, and therefore he could not scree to the opinions advanced by his honourable Friend the Member for Greenock upon the subject. The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland had given a vivid description of the difficulties which he said in terferred with the decisions of the House on the matter of the projected- lines, hut he ;Mr. Gishorne) thought that the very facility with which the Noble Lord had painted them, was a proof that they were not of the most serious character. The Noble Lord had spoke n very feelingly of the expenses incurred by the pro moters of some Of these schemes, before they could be brought before Parliament, and alleged the hardship of their rejection :by the 'Beard of Trade—but what was the House to do ? How could they, in that House, tie 7 eitle, upon the merits of 'competing lines ? How were they. to say what railway communication should or should not be . given to such or such a place, or by what line that. communication should be made? They might depend upon it that the advantages of the respective Hies would be best tested by a •onunission constituted as was the Board of Trade. With respect to the powers vested in that Board by the Act of Parliament of the 1: and 4th Victoria, cap. 9, he should, with the permission of the flouse, read such part of the : Act as releted to those powers, and also those given by the subsequent Act of Parliament. The Act directed that no railway should he opened for traffic without at least a month's previous notice oeing given to the Board of Trade ; and it em powered the Board to suspend. in certain cases, the opening of such railway: The Bear, could also empower inspectors to examine the railways and carriages, and a copy of the bye-laws of -each company was directed to be sent to them for their approval. The Act also directed that the Beard should have the power of ordering a re tern of the traffic. and the rates and charges on each line. These, and powers of a somewhat similar character, were granted to the Board ,133 the Act of Parliament he had quoted. In the last session these powers were somewhat extended, it being directed, in the first place, that all railways should be submitted to a Committee of the Board of Trade. who should report to Parliament upon them, but whose report was not to be considered final. There 'was therefore nothing in the resolution to prevent railway schemes coming before the House, whether the Committee of the Board of Trade reported favourably or not. He did not find anything either in the Act of Parlia ment, nor could he find that the Railway Committee were in any way authorised to publish in the Gaze* repOrts for or against particular lines of railway. He understood that the object originally designed by the ap pointment of the Committee was an investigation and elucidation of facts.—(Hear, hear.) A committee of that House had come to the conclusion that the decision of the Railway Committee of the Board of Trade should not prejudice the claims of private persons. Great in justice had resulted from the proceedings of the Sub committee. The public had been under the impression during the recess that the decisions of the Committee of the Board of Trade would be supported by the Govern ment—in short, they considered them all but final and conclusive. It was true the Right Hon. Baronet oppo site had dispelled the delusion on the first night of the seesien, but great mischief had previously resulted. Those lines which the Committee reported in favour of, had their shares greatly - increased in price, whilst those reported against, whatever their me its might be, received a great discouragement from the decisions. of the Board of Trade. It resembled a race on the turf. There was quite as much speculation, but it differed in there respects, that the amount at stake was much larger, and that the event of the race could not be known until it was over, whilst the decisions of the Railway Committee became known before they were published.—(Hear, hear.) He did not attribute any dis honour to any Member of that ComMittee, far from it, he believed them to be men of integrity and honour but it was impOSSible for any man not to see that, in many cases, the decisions of the Bi,ard of Trade, respect! ing lines of railway, were predicted with a degree of cer tainty very strange and striking. Where seven or eight were entrusted with a secret, it was very hard to pre serve that inviolable privacy which was in this case so desirable. Some men lost their memorandum-books other mese were communicative to their wives; and others talked in their sleep. In short, there :were several modes by which . a secret might be divulged in such a case, without any breach of honour or duty on the part of the Committee. Unless there Was any great advan tage in such an arrangement as the present, it -was not worth while to subject a body of men to the odium and suspicion which such a situation entailed. It was very difficult to convince th.. , public where such temptations - and such opportunities-presented themselves, and above all, where so much was to be gained by disclosure, that there had been no fa!se dealing. The grossest imputa tions bad been thrown upon the Board of Trade, and he did not believe that any good they could effect would counterbalance the distrust their decisions would in evitably-create. Again, he did not believe it possible, with the means of information which the Committee had at its disposal, and the opportunities they had for investiga Lion, that they c o uht decide with a full knowledge of the facts. and that they could make their decisions respected for their abstract soundness and justice. How could they decide upon the respective merits of 240 projected lines of railway in every part of England, Ireland, and Scotland? To be sure they had maps and ordnance surveys to judge from, and the testimony of witnesses, but what were these things where the fullest local in formation was requisite? He thought some less objec tionable tribunal might be devised than the present, and he thought, moreover, that the Committee of the Board of Trade assumed to themselves a !sewer which the Legislature never intended they should assume. Mr. J. S. WORTLEY said he considered that the Committee of the Beard of Trade had been appointed to report to Parliament the merits of rival schemes, and that its proceedings would be conducted in such a manner as to conciliate the confidence of the public, and be of material assistance to the House. But when they published their decisions before they were communicated to Parlia ment—before the grounds upon which they arrived at them were made known, he thought the public had just cause of eemplaint. He could not, however, approve of the project of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland. That Noble Lord had admitted the propriety of deciding at once upon the different schemes, and the impolicy of postponing their consideration to another year ; but how could this be done, it the whole 250 projects were to be decided by any one tribunal? In his opinion the tribunal, whatever it - might be, which was to decide upon railway communications, ought to decide, not merely upon the preference of rival schemes, but which was the best line. Now the best line, as it often happened, might not be proposed at all ; it might embrace a por tion of two projects ; but the present tribunal did not go any further than the schemes proposed. Further, he did not think the Government, by any mode of organisa tion, could judge of such a multitude of projects, extend ing as they did over the whole face of Great Britain and Ireland. It would be a task which no Government, how eversible and 'assiduous, could accemplish. He felt that the present - organisation and machinery was imperfect, and hoped a remedy would be speedily supplied. Mr. WARBURTON felt assured that the Board of Trade would not adopt any measure by which to inter fere prejudicially with the large mass of capital now invested in railroad speculations in this country, and the result of which interference would be, that those specu lators would immediately transfer their capital to similar undertakings in foreign countries. The laws of this country, in respect to railroads, were so exceedingly stringent, and the advantages to the speculator who in vests his capital in foreign lines so many, that any in terference with the English lines that would not be en couraging to capitalists, would have the effect of in ducing them to resort to foreim countries.—(Hear.) He had listened with considerable attention to the scheme of the Hon. Member' for Sunderland ; but he should say, that in his opinion that scheme would be attended with great inconvenience. It should be recol lected - that engineers would be employed to survey the different lines proposed ; to report.upon what they con sidered to be , the advantages and disadvantages of each line ; then to lay their report before. Parliament, who would then take the matter off their hands, and finally decide upon which was the best plan ; that was one plan. The other proposal of the Noble Lord was, that a company who had resolved upon a certain line should go before a Parliamentary Committee, having first de sided on their line, and that Committee were to call for tenders, and declare in favour of the lowest. What would the effect of such a caurse be ? Why this—it would be giving a monopoly to a certain company. upon that line for a certain term of years. Now, surely the country had too recently embarked in the whole scheme of railroads to warrant that House in coming to such a resolution as would, in effect, be declaring that they had reached the utmost verge of perfection.—(Hear, hear.) Improvements were being made every day ; and it might so happen, that that line which in a few years hence would be - shown ,to he infinitely more advanta geous than a former one, could net be approved of and adopted, because the lowest tender had been ac cepted, and the contract was to hold goed for a nuinber of years. This would bring about a state of things that would ins olve the Government in an inextricable maze. Therefore he could see no mode by which to remedy this evil, but the adoption of one rule, and that was to al:mit the fullest and fairest competition, and to give every importunity to new consuls* to cm- ,: - - --- pete fie. new lines.—(Hear, tear.) Inds ed, so aspresse ea. he with the justice and (airneaa of this I rlso • he felt convinced, when the subject. ca me to be fully t'" sidered by the House, this would be the rul e which theit, would decide was the hese *. ad also iavoer °r the Cenimittees en theseßills being limittes, say to hest; fer the fewer their mnies/. were, tree better would theY be enabled, withoese much difficulty, to arrive at A cur' seientii ;us oiticlusien. Mr. BA NEES—The lion. Member had argued in fa .- veur of the principle of encouraging competition. I"r* he (Mr. Banks) ceotend, c: that that would riot be 11 be's neticial course to adopt. ler it bad had the effect checking riiiiway speculation in the county he tepee; seated ' In that county several prcipesitionsfor (titterer% lines of railways had been put birward by disti nct air very powerful and wealthy bodies; but there wer e twenty to one —or, indeed, he might say a much l ar ger proPorth" tion of the inhabitants of fiv e that county in fur of l South-Western Company's line.— (Hear, hear.) 111" line was looked upon as one of the highest imporr ts/et by the inhabitants of the county, because it psetled pass through a part of the county having at present n other railroad, in which the existing roads were by no s means good. The land through which it was intended we should pass was rich and fertile, and the i n h a bitants or the district had not by any means the necessary faellitie, of transit, either by land at water; while, on the oth ef d hand, the line proposed by the other companY P asse through a part of the county where the inhabitaiits w e d in the full erjoyeent of all those advantages e therefore, the inhabitants of the south•western distri a had not only to look forward to gaining all those tages, by getting this line of railroad. but als o the elan tiona.l one of a renewal of the traffic between 1-4"11 and Exeter; and furthermore, it was quite cle7d that this would be the line by which the public iv° t prefer to travel, while without it the people o f that Pl:rci, of' the county would in fact be to some extent isolat One other fact in favour of the South-Western hae'' 5 preference to that of the Great Western, wso• ilia t- ; distance of about 150 miles would be saved b Y of o f (Hear, hear.) He had heard it stated that the I 101;"; Trade had decided in favour of the Great W e stern ; and that they had recommended a combination "ilee two companies. If that were the fact, the conseque.ng would be that the county Would get the worst been line ; whereas the South-Western line would have All an excellent coasting line, for it proposed to proeeel' e a Exeter.—(Hear.) Ile did not state this as a far. had come within his own knowledge ; but he had - ;e a s told that such was the case. With regard to the Oleo mittee divulcing any ieformation upon the subjeet,r e n et their report was published, he should say he aid n et think ant member of the Committee would do any e re of the kind ; but it should be cted that there lvteleb many . hands Virough which those reports passe d.. . s of as printers and (alit rs ; and though be would o ' l o !hat the latter were more capable of di vu lgineetha t w e e ta should not be made public tl.ati those in highe r st e ass ) et, as the decisions of Cho Committee had t° through many hands, great inury was the res, l , 4 aera conclusion, he would only say that if the Great I .l, t 'ices' line should be ado in preference to the South - t it ; tern, they could do nothing more, and should see e Pe I but he did hope tl,e latter would not oe lost sight v ,„evs Sir R. BE.EL did hope that the House would p°s'r e nt corning to any decision upon the subset for the Pre; the —(Hear, hear.) He hal no doubt but that many Rand decisions of the Board of Trade were open to 1 1 old fault with, and th , t good and sufficient g round ass be stated for doirg so—(1 leer, hear) —but 'twee utterly impossil , le, he conceived, for the .1, 0 0 yet adopt t n rselVerednecfientiet- i i t v h e i l s y bu w h j h , a .e t t._ o ( or i r e s a e r. they o s e• h" co re ing heard the statement of his lion. Friendille hate only say that, if the Board of 'Freda could be shOwny if bs come tie as inconsiderate or impolitic decision, rin„, e slg could show that a better line for the county g e ""„ ta is° had been proposed than that said to have been sPr s of, he felt assuied that that line would receive eferint side ration and attention.—(Hear, hear.) It wil s s 8 5 11 011/3 much upon the decision that the Board of Trot: P i o t 0° have arrived at on any particular line of railroan• i l e much depended, as on the statement they 01 ' 1 %0 d e : of the grounds upon which they had arrived at der cisions„—(Hear, bear.) In fact, the value of th°)011). sinus would entirely dept nd upon those grounds vie felt cer ain that the board would show that thelout not deserving of couch-venation —(Hear, hea r q n eb ee s il should be remembered that that Board had no opt in office ; they were only appointed last 9es n 'il e se rte were the mere creation of himself and his c- e. That Board had been censured beeause of th e ' e ' d tr e e or decisions having got publicity at an itar ° , l 'h e He did think that a serious charge ; but, at ' 0 10, e time, he would say that he conceived it most e l l 3 e be ve t to public convenience that those reports sh„l he y dared at as early a period as possible ; for, th e a over those decisions for two or three mon''''f 1)0' would be then such an enormous accumulation 1 1 . 110 4)( I° o ness, that those reports would be much in ( l e A iiithe i rt o gain publicity than by the course the Ward hilu dl teu adopted ; but he did think the Board ha d th fi e esel v :e wise and, udicious course in reserving to es th e until the proper time had arrived, their reasonseot deeisione they had come to ; while, had theY ,„ e abn i , ° o whole a secret that time, it would have be en ''' be likely to prove injurious. In two or three day,, t would have the report of the Board, and that o pte tb to accompanied by a general statement of the grl te oce e o had' led them to concur in those views with r e , e ' e II certain lines ; and until then, he did boi' judge would postpone giving expression to its .1 0 ",, e e l (Hear, hear.) He did also, hope that the 1 1411P gell e .e 'l not come- to a resolution to abandon W e l, "' A P principle upon which the Board had been se_abf h `d . they had given it a fair trial, and were convin7i I Av perience that it was bad.—(Hear, hear.) f " - o e seil"s t e heard it stated that there were 240 lines of i ll rete:, he proposed. That was an enormous .pathnumbe;'nyis had little doubt, when they came to be looked t ad be would be very considerably reduced ; but wer e ec abi- l e come down to 100, still the amount of labour,"o9oes' very great.—.(Hear. hear.) His Noble Frienale; r o t had applied for the appointment of a C01 1031 13107v fore that could be granted, some reports of th e w ooo,of Trade would be brought forward, and theY, when it found to form a material element in the disc whellet that Committee.—(Hear.) The Committee' to a .`,l, should be appointed, . would find it desirabbele wgealeco;, some principle by - which they should that —(hear, hear.) If the aletnbers of t p oo l mittee should be confined to a °ll e par c arf say five or seven, and if they gave constant alleteer2,ol attendance to the business before them, the °reef sh. uld agree to, or dissent from the report °r eto ol , r e of Trade, he had no doubt the labour of th e .....( 11t4 ,0 0 would have great influence with the Houl e ' o' o l by 1 , The Committee would find it necessar), per e re 0 1 ;, 30 0 witnesses or-ought before them, to give evicie” c ol!' tie ei peculiarities, mid he could not see whyethttaoo.lthis apply the principle adopted by eh•ctioo 0 ; 071' 0 0' to brench.--(Elear, hear.) But supP° s l l r 6ve le dge Committee were appointed to consist of O n ? por fr o hers, from which those possessed of loe li halcu po o: upon any particular line were to be , e _ p lc i c aing li ejob l i giving evidence, and that the power of' th e ar ea, line was to be transferred to the Cotnrai tt t":, 0 1 /reeli Lord might despair of this House everj °l l - girl i ;ach t : satisfactory on the subject.—(Hear.) e page rs (lid not think that this House ought to tralheese).,ll. ( (Pa power to a Committee, or any other boes;•"; he • tas fact, if the Noble Lord's plan were adopt po t les s rai l ' Pee.) would look upon it as nothing sa"r e latl fl ed 0' a total revolution of the law at present reC e a b eir road projects.—(Hear, hear.) The Nobler:000_4004 pressed a feer that parties would be likely w o od 5 6 0 capital in foreign speculations ; thaltw a l sho al of 111° why the decisions of the Board of Tilt i 0 1; prompt as possible.—( !ear, hear.) e - woal u e l et 1 )1 0 Noble Lord, he (Sir R. Peel) conceived.'" t his. of all possible to adopt, for it would a mount t_. t oa d , A Government should ant new surveYur'c,otlan_ ati". the lines proposed to begun in En g laild' l o'- ag ° F ill e;t! b ; Ireland. That operation would occupy k' s up what would be . the effect of it 1.11 " ea be° een r line from Waterford to Kilkenny ;thet ha d b el • resa t ' 0 1 forward ; and would it not create the g to pped l i n e a and confusion if that line was to be s o , t he Government surveyor could have s urvel 1 1 1,0 1 (Hear, hear.) In like manner, wererstr)ubretWee.,oons.l.veespot°o:' been going on for the last twelve or be puta la 1 0 some of the lines in this country, t" f o re 1 "Ne s s ; or suspended until the House had laid be idea Ke ai d ai' s tb versment engineers' report, for the pr°Y r j fact, tantamount to that' ?—(Hear, e ' e erin direr, know what the effect would be upon t" omen4ll2 Government were to take up the rnana &o hoe a roai e Lion of railroads . ; but he very Inn e ene ottat r „ o f eld t „ Government did adopt such a course, t's flow' ;:o ab jail°, be the better for it.-e-Ifi en° o o e i i t Government decide upon what was betweeneerer is the best line P Suppose a line tO run the 0" t win 01 towns were proposed, how e ouro . _ g uide acquire local knowledge aufficient eb e ar,) „f th u ,, o coming to a judicious de&sion ? (li e k a i ;; ; oledg c o iti it not be much better to rely upon t it t eee fore , :bt riot who were on the spot, and who, Ile conee lv 00 11 t give this information ?—(Hear.) f r om sai lt e .0 1 0 and therefore he would say, it was. o . _-(1 0 '_, 0 10 11° such information should be de l : l _ v thes e sPi.T ig , n o r They did not want to interfere 111 5e1 , 0 10. 1 .4 o et ev They gave speculators the peeferencee be c ortv rtici all i ( i ever, that certain preliminaries shouldbut more Psui? crisp i 3 the benefit of the public generally' By 0 10 ler the benefit of the poorer classe4* oscine eoar*, l " o ,e ° ed : er , course they did nut di turb the oror.,.. eee fie stel a ness. But what would be the case for r suggestion of the Noble Lord the ou T i el 7 o e ve o w n e l ho * land ? Why the Government w , I „ l , os ed 0 14 0 ,ay P o f with the magnitude of the labour 1 " .. r In gle 0" 0 .0 . 1/ 0 and u would e be r p e a su ss i e t d w . e t for the su;gjudiel°,lo "VibithbealgtlhhrutetsPinte;iitioltit i b ti e sni 7 d is i b: oo ; ec ei the Noble Lord, he thou therefore, for the Governimitt to „hour „:$e would propose wa s, that ,tni.:fraintiOn be o we diately address themselves to e ti o ": ile b e the 1 301a 40 .1 Committee to consider allot , " these rail". 3; sill : ea t of proceeding with respect a _ 41e , to W,_ l . e g would be necessary, howevela_rorrl of Trea c e, in eOT a ; coeld see the report of the 1.4 0. ,,d a dopt ,n_a D ot D e the general principles tvHch id Trail' be?, to their conclusions. TLe t 13J 'three Yuri: septa . t he fl " t decided ao ititopuobnttvvh.ehemnetrhites rocipt,,liret tatives of the two lines reported S' .ll - bet ter t t '; ‘ ;l3. L i fe and make sp, eches, had were to the one which bed bse surmise _ , Ito .OO 190 be 'Oaf ° Un il • to show h':wllrneeepted h b o ) zs ' r eed of Trade. There might a • . he 00 , • h is 0 . de er s the gentlemen connected with b e t. roe ',per'"' some influence with the GOVVrill. wit h ea! h , eere ie „s e lves( the Hon. Wining. would agr , o ,t '' ,. ; i v : re : 0 " al D i 0 there oarsnse.irttlioisnteNgSwhdOtil,l:l 1 , e'e n 1 1 . . 1!_e:,1 plr e e: l ier! ; o meantime they should not once peoeee era, t ale practice of the Hou-e. but. t .. " i. . elect C00 11 :4 0 ,) consideration, hy means 0 1 a,:_ _tfleary " o wl 13 1 0 to dh i mode, of t i.po big of these 131:110st• eas ' Mr. BANKES exp!amed t most benefit the comity with 'lle merely stated his opinion as -'l_3.?"leltreePehreeis.erille t °U . ir MIMI At' qtke had v but 11 CTiti( wi'h tinlis Ciro is kri , (tA it hltt ti on , ie Part w hit} lon.or