The Sun. — London, England, 1850-02-20 00:00:00

b, y e e ,''"g cal rise t o g i ve any reason why these taxes 'eed 11 . be eie ste c' arced upon the real p r operty of the Kined.un. Teey are levied in a form which Thu' seenrity for oar happy system of se if-govern uent- That limps, system, it it be one, is amply se teirnr:dbe the lent. of millions, to all of which in due of E)our eetiee will b e c t il e d by t h e suffezing land eglend. Well, then, I shout I pie pose if we went l taro Coirenittee, as I hope we shall, a second resolution, that from the 25th cf Jlerch, 1350, all these rates levied 1211rier the machinery of the laws for the relief and 107ie e fe lance of the poor, other than county ret!s and rates in connexion with county rat ss, and other t ,! 1 ' 41 1 the establishment charges, should be defrayed by Consolidated Fund —(Cheers.) I hope that these Itiwo resolutions, though not f ,rmally laid on the ta e o , r e specific enough fsr the Hon. Member for Montros., an ;that he will this night record his vote in their fa 4ar, a.:cordance with the half-promise which he gave .ter(ll.(<l. laugh.) There is yet another resolution j /it l ch I will venture to call the attention of the Hous.. herto the House will observe that though I have sell! w ith a sum not exceeding 2,0 t 00 0001., the whole ti ti h r . h ‘ ich . is furnished by real proper y, , and two-thirds of h ,, le n direct; presses up el the suff eine- land, I have a,le tl , e Ilouse to violate a single ono of those pranlienal princip'e3 with which they have Len ex sh'eel their sympathy. It cannot be said that we a - e --seine; thaeskinn,cieuntt the e stitutions ael habits of the eaotettry in present moment, to free the j las l o d , f , r °n l a contribution of taxes which have not only b oerl tied withi n the last fey years, but which have °r drocr'Posed for purposes which were never conceived neeiv r ed , Or a tnel of by statesmen or gnanciers until very t ml int Period.— (Hear, hear.) There is another impo he Phiect connected with the administration of t tle, - / •, 4 \s• which I think, demands the . consideration of fro 4c"lse. I should propose a third resolution, that ia _r B and after the same day in March, 1850, the casual 01 thr oughout th e Untied Kingdom should be a sops 'e transf erre d to the general revenue of the e t 0,,,, e .—(fl ear, hear.) That is not at the present tipe ,eat.Y p trochi a l c h arge. I t is heavythe in Scotland, sorb 'n England it i s veste d: upon the union rate, e _ the e ra h ?n fund. It is also an amendment open to none f to Jections with which we are met when we attempt r ihn ' v ".rt the distresses of the agricultural classes by (e ' C et ng any portion of their peculiar burdens.— o'n er) Now, Sir, I think there is much to be said in 131 1.-1. °f these propositions. They are, in the first e l i se e t t e ii i it a l s i t.-- (Cheers.) They are, in the second place, te e Y Practicable.—(Cheers.) They requir d e n h o leCorlehinery, they destroy no old machinery, 9.1: te tesh (4 th en' may be furnished by that balance in the I N 'quer of which we have heard so much.—(Hear t hat i l e u l t iat ee-) I have thought, acting with my friends, lit too - me present state of circumstances it was of the treto,ilhPortance that any suggestion that we had to 'see, Should be one into which the elements of centre obj4t; co uld very slightly enter. None of those great Yee . , ° 2 l which entered into the question last teat e''''n it was ar gu ed, can b e no ti ce d i n th e pre eesocoaP, and fortenately we have at last a Minister of Fi te) w ,ho n ee d not plead in forma pauperis.—(Laugh tht'r ' a ut . , Sir, th ere i s anot h er recommendat i on f or the e in'asures which I will attempt to impress upon '''inlieleration of the Noble Lord. They may !),It tekonsidered slight, though they are practicable,. bie im port s are of indefinite and almost of unimaginable res ot ta e nee when we look upon them as the commence this °' a how era, which will do justice to the land o twee at It is of the highest . impolr theztteits moment that the Parliament, which on . y elat of January, not only refused to sympathise reelpith even to rec ogn i se , the unprecedented distress i tr:re clePres sion that now prevail in England, and .. daily Sethit."Le, because they were wedded—l am willing . to h th e , " "honourably wedded—to the conviction upon which lioa4adetel--ehould at least show, as the Noble Lord ', ,exPressed himself on the occasion, that if any ti O tt 'at measures were brought forward for the mitiga e)o4q that distress which did not run counter to any of Ils e ° convictions of political economy to which he is !iota? fondly devoted, he would give to those proposi 'lee,: c andid, a considerate, and even an indulgent at risCt"., I think it of great importance—l scarcely can '`th tu e Noble Lord would think it of slight importance ,4 5 : t h ,z should do so at a moment like the present, thi n k s 'eling which I will not dilate upon, but which . Olti r l , - ' bna justified in saying is one of a very serious ael,ti-etee, Pervading large classes of the community, I nes ' a s if to aggravate their annoyance, their suffer- N it are os tentatiously placed in contrast with the ram oPersPerity of universal England.—(Hear, hear.) ' a t tts orb und a Minister presiding over an overflowing et t --4 Minister, the representative of doctrines IV it peps Produced this universal prosperity—l will not 'ilse,, e `Pe cost of agricultural distress, but suspiciou . s yO r to ent eot with it—l can conceive no position happier, felic itous, than that in which the Noble Lord eP olit - 4 4 ` r a l" fe• his coming and saying,. " I have an un sitl sytt 's , th in the principles upon which the comm!r- ti Ples er n of England is founded; I believe those pnn thot tvhich I gave a tardy but sincere assent. te i tere eo tt - h r tr e y al . cause of the wide-spread prosperity of I deeply deplore that any important b lee l e t i n th e State is at this moment suffering, has aspetrsspe,it'g suffering, and, unfortunat dy, has not l a ct very ironic Hate renovation ; but am lais its • n that I can come e eas t ' „ practice. statesrna , "lh "" prose to the landed cheeses of the country, toil herd and of the soil, to all connected with the : 1, 4 s iEngland, that there is in the Ministry and ‘ Zis 'l n tl , il rnent of England a sincere sympathy with r i lt:7 er ingl stead what is still mare important—the 0pp",', 1 4 some de ree to mitigate them."—(Cheers.) 4 1; 41 with confid g ence , to the Noble Lord, ' because he ta °re than one occasion show n — w h at must b e to him —a a,h with the ag r i cu lt ura l c l asses . t ft ' 4 lli o t s o ld the - N s rale p Lord'yn- before, not e myself, but Ter s ° with whom I have the honour to act, that we ,; () ].'eht to mix up any party spirit with our strug- I 'll l e t ) ilusticet) our suffering constituents.—(Bear, !'h et ' el 11 1)e. therefore, that the Noble Lord, if he is 11 14 , ace - e' to these temperate, these moderate, tl iti4 h lo nablerequests, will not be prevented from th''Y tl ß 'i, t '°,,eour se e thinks right because he thinks he shadow of a party triumph to gentlemen on l tgtt Ical assure him that if he will act in this t t tlel lt,h7c shall h ave no w i s h t o ava il ourse l ves o f any h%si ti 'N "leA. I shell thi n k th a t t h e N o bl e L or d on t hi s „ as os tti upon others, has acted like a high-spirited Net e' and a wise statesman, and has not been from doing that which is just, and net ti ts Jest s but politic, because a suggestion e r has to ear —a le to him by a political opponent. e "ea" ) But if I make this appeal 01 ) B /4' 6111 0 ' Lord, I would also venture to address 166 re 0f,1 141 0n to th e H ouse . Th e House is well tl ft less," .aceitstion which exists upon the subject of i'lvt distress and depression of the agricultural 1 43 elo ono can say that we hove exaggerated it, \ ti t gl se e li b Q Il e hoard from a high althority the other night i n -n • Rember for the West Riding—that he be et',44i-nei," the Reform Bill, a greater disturbance never t ha l4 ff - "gland. Sir, lam not surprised that t ose s lap a llsl e : severely should feel ardently, end expres prig language somewhat strong. But remem lt,',V t , e pal characteristic of that agitation. What . )04 ,7 1 c) D0 " as it not the expression of an opinion that it (4 '1 )1 1 V, ( "8 to apply to this House? Was it net a (I s ' h 'es r l fidence l in the institutions of the country? (i'lls-t„'hel,” from an Hon. Member.) The Hon. ,ltl e t he " cheers rss if I had sanctioned such appeals cintrary I have never mei, upon that subject, Z t t i l) 14 1 11 g0 ihan I used in this House.—(Hear, ectsei never said one thing in one place, and a'4nother.—(Loud cheers.) I have always Fx . - t r, tia tiP I, ll . o hounded and sincere belief in the :pint tli kt vq I believe, is at the bottom of the heart d e rnher of this House. I never suppose el't, 'k h" slos ,ell, l ,‘"lild come forward and that they would g i p , conviction-, at which the majority have Ilrrived with some study, and many with much tl'ijit',4lllembering what the House did on . . the 1 % 1 0, I tt l e - "vo years aeo I expressed the eonvaction, th',' -;* Most earnestly entertain, that this House I lai'le t %tnste a d cf an assembly that exhibited a cal °,l) he'lltel"„t°,tle sufferings and representations of the P l i k v s re .the - t i s °° c l Y—would, o . n the contrary, be an assem ,'ile,,,l If it express their sympathy, 7trompt . to . r.e :le,g,tslenglet be, even the injuries which their legis slOrioerk'frh beneficial in the main, had entailed on I 41!ttlral class• I feel that conviction now. ti l'ee e l o ; lo 're that in . the present state of the country, ;rltine°sitions conceive', as I think, with so much 'ell I s'n, in • • much urged I hope, t ot ss lt a spirit of so justice, 'lt' 'lee 'i they are not urged with temper it is my 4 11 ) lltop f , i 'r the fault of my friends—l cannot conceive 1 4 6 tresl4;l4'ons of this character will be received with L'.llle.44,reitrosa ° PPosition.—(Cheers.) I hardly know with c ots we are to be met. All the usual ones to Nice alt. referred referred which might relate to a more am lila a lit t ef thi °grAaplewith the subject, are entirely t a qo. 8 discussion. All that they' can say is, ti „'„4l an little We may be told, as we have that . we, who were the advocates of a eA h .r ece - p' st een ' , ought to be content with nothing less e,tiststiltit.rthetice will a protective system, and that 'lee ° at will satisfy our constiuents. That is a 11 ,1 e, linen that witfi great respect to Hon. Gen ta t„, 40 all ' - A to —(Cheers.) eever coneescene to rep y . rif pinn°h confidence in the good sense of the i t t i ?,'l.N 4(l r t ,say - , g c l and to believe that that is . the view, I - Clltl o "lee r — k lbe majority, but of a considerable por Qte' t Z give's ", e t. tle.) They are prepared, when the cr i ►i c e i-tell an opportunity, I doubt not, to Tin oillet'etial.llstrial principles which . they think have Ot t :4 t 5 by ItiCheers.) But in this llcus . e li where we tikels tb ( lie t , B „ l ',''°dged majority, which scarcely 'els 4 le J.- ew e ' ° ns of that nature, we . are . only doing Crt "ere ar e only consulting their intersts, in Ost,a"?ei: op or to alleviate their . burdens —to Pli ''tned fo• their sufferings; and if we cannot tits t, '',9taef,""nit?,diately any great result. at least we -I4r , to achieve this great political purpose isik4l9l):'s taeh iti e . elll not to despair for the in 'e country. The lion. Gentleman eon tl,l,resqtaerctit(te'te Clod and repeated cheers, by moving . for t h the whole House, to take into its cohn tleii ableth"' revision of the laws providing ti % ll l t P i °° l • of the United Kingdom of Great tr eit ci ta :eler: 3 ' 3 4 : 4l ,, as may mitigate the distress of the f 'tt 'ss "k a tak e expressed his satisfaction at the ; 141 t 'il‘ 'i' is: by the Hon. Gentleman in bringing tilt the session the motion which he had t. Itt en t _ h ' u t' t l ,: l l, lr Atr e , t u v tli e Rouse ; and he thought the agri s ^reatly indebted to the Hon. Gentleman t ‘lt i • r tll'• e n el II w hich he had acted. After all that hated c ounty meetings within the last few ti t, to Bach ell tho propositions that had been sub litl,4la fassetehl :re t or t " a les, and the anticipations which farebt 0 a "' immediate, or at least an early teetiVO s ystem—after all the cheers which y 4 0 % , te by th . e public oratory of some Hon. Mem fp set Rated - letk,eret n ear the Hoe. Gentleman—it was th e _ and ef the Hon. Gentleman coming ultnee that numerous and distinguished pasty, end amidst the cheers of that party declare that so long as the present Parliament should endure, a return to the protective system was impossible.—(Minis terial cheer s.) The House was greatly indebted to the Hoe. Gentleman for this fra.ik and candid avowal, and he was net open to the taunt or having said out of the House what he was not pro; a-ed to say or had not raid io the liouse.---(Hear, hear.) lie hal not fostered or encouraged that tnischievons delusion which had been fostered and encouraged at these agricultural meetings— which had led assay the tenant-farmers from the use ef those means which Providence had placed within their reach to met t the altered circumstances of the times, to lock for that ignis _farms, the restoration of protection -a protection which their great leader admitted to be utterly hopeless in the present Parliament.—(Cheers.) It was said that this expression of hopelessness was only upplicabla to the durivion of the present Parliament, and that another Parliament would meet probably return t ) the protetive system. lb utterly disbelieved in the possibility of any such return.—(Cheer?.) He believed the incalculable blessings of the present system of our commercial policy were so widely felt, had catered so much into the everyday comforts of every working man in the c iuntry, whether manufacturing or agricultural—that they would never consent to a return to the old system. The lion. Member had avowed that the decision of both Houses at the beginning of the session was a (1, cisive expression of opinion that neither branch of the Legislature were prepared t rc tarn to a protective system.—(hear, hear.) The lion. Member had said but little of the actual distress, upon which the whole basis of his motion rested. He had assumed the existence of extensive and del) distress throughout the agricultural districts of the country, and the only allu sion which he had merle to any particular instance of the distress, was a supposition that if the returns rela tive to pauperism had been made up to the Ist of Fe bruary instead of the let of January, 1850, for the pur pose of comparison with the corresponding month of the preceding yt ar, an increase would have been found in the number of persons receiving relief. Now he (Sir George Grey) considered that to be a perfectly gra tuitous assumption. There was no evidence to justify any such supposition, although perhaps in some instances, owing to the long-continued frost, draining and other works of that description had been for a time stispended.—(hear, hear.) He did not wish to join issue with the Hon. Gentleman upon the fact of the existence of agricultural distress. That fact had been fully admitted, and her Niajesty had bean advised to express her regret at the existence of that distress. No doubt prices had been so low as to occasion distress amongst the owners and occupiers of land in various parts of the country; but this had arisen from a variety of causes, comprising amongst others the free importa tion of grain in a year when there was an abundant har vest. But looking to the great portion of the agricul tural population of the country, there was sufficient proof of their condition having been materially improved, as compared with the preceding year. The best test of the condition of that population was the state of crime and pauperism, and he would just trouble the House with a few facts, for the purpose of showing that a beneficial effect had been produced. On a com parison of crime, as evidenced by commitments in Eng land and Wales, in 1848 and 1849, it appears that the commitments in 1848 were 30,349; in 1849, 27,772; showing a decrease in 1949 of 2,571, or 8.5 per cent. On a comparison of the number of persons receiving paro chial relief on the Ist of January 1849 and 1850 re spectively, it appears that the number was, on the Ist of January, 1849, 987,164; Ist of January, 1850, 923,167; showing a decrease in 1850 of 63,997, or 6.4 per cent. On an analysis of the returns, it appears that there has been a de3reaso of crime in 31 counties; that there has been a decrease of pauperism in 32 counties; and that there are 20 of the above counties in which there has been a decrease of both crime and pauperism, comprising a population of 9,204,586, nearly two-thirds of the whole, while there are only 9 counties (including 4 in Wales) in which there has been any increase both of crime and pauperism. In confirmation of this state ment with respect to the country generally, he would read a few remarks addressed to the grand jury of Mid dlesex at the Central Criminal Court, by the Learned Recorder, on the 4th Feb. inst. The Learned Gentle man expressed his great satisfaction at the diminution of the number of prisoners committed for trial to this court. The jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court, he said, extended over a population of 2,000,000, and at the present session there were only 123 persons committed for trial, which was very considerably less than the number committed at the in the course of which speech the Honourable Gentle. man, after having advocated a transference of the local taxation of the agricultural districts to the general taxation of the country, had stated that that was not the only relief to which the egrieulturiets were entitled, and that it would not by itself enable them to be ,r up against the altered circumstances in which they were placed. The Honourable Gentleman had gone on to say that, immediately after the assembling of Perlis-- ment, he thought that all England ought to pray for the establishment of a sinking fund, and that, in his opinion, the best and most practical way of crewing such a fund was to lay an ad valorem duty on all articles of foreign import.—(Hear, hear.) The Hotsoureede Gentleman had added, " That is the weapon—the charmed weapon—with which wo shall win the battle. Put that weapon into the hands of any knight whom you may choose to fight your battle, and I stoke my political reputation on its suseess." Now, he (Sir G. Grey) thought they had a right to know whether the Hon. Gentleman still staked his politica' reputation on the success of such a proposal, and whe ther, if they were to nerve to that motion they were to have an ad valorem duty u p on every article of f sreign import, inclu ling, of course, the article of c srn ? That was a question t s which he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would give an explicit answer before they sh iuld go to a division upon the subject then under their coesidera tion. lie could assure the Hun. Gentleman that be had listened with much satisfaction to the temperate tone of his address that evening ; he did not think there was a single expression in the speech of the Hon. Gentleman which could give pain t) any one; and he only hoped that in the answer he had euaeavoured to give to that speech he hal avoided stating anything which could give offence, and not only which could give offence, but which could indicate a want of sympathy toe his part in the dis tress which prevailed among a portion of the agricul tural body. Ho should observe, however, that the Hon. Gentleman himself considered that a return to the pro tective system, as a remedy for that distress, was f the present, at least, perfectly hopeless. AU his (Sir G. Grey's) interests were intimat-ly con nected with the prosperity of the agricultural body; and he believed that nothing could be more prejudicial to that body than to lead them to expect great relief from any system which Parliament could pursue. He was convinced that a return to the protective system was at present utterly out of the question. He be • lieved that such a measure would be mischievous t all classes of the community. He believed that the true interests of the agricultural body were inti mately bound up with the true interests of every other class in the community, and that it was impossible that manufactures could flourish in any country in which agriculture was permanently depressed.—(Hear.) He admitted, as he had before stated, that distress prevailed among a portion of the agricultural classes; but that was no reason why they should not endeavour to improve their condition by energy, industry, and the application of increased skill and capital to the cultivation of the land. He trusted that the result of the discussions in that House would be to undeceive those who might have been misled by what on one occasion had been called the " splendid coruscations" of the Hon. Mem ber for Buckinghamshire. He trusted that the plain sense which people were compelled to speak in that House would have the effect of showing the agriculturists of the country, who admired, and justly admired, the elo quence of the Hon. Gentleman, that they had been de ceived, and that they had been led to indulge in vain anticipations of large measures of relief, especially by a return to the protective system. He trusted that they would see that they only injured themselves by that de spondent spirit, which was encouraged and f ostere d b y persons who, or their own sakes, should have endea voured to create among them a very different temper of mind. He believed that the discussion on the Address, which had taken place at the commencement of the ses sion, the discussion upon the present occasion, and the discussion which would take place on any subsequent pol c p o r m o PI s e a t n which h these t ri e es lon G of measures eas e u n r t e lem sw an might make for hichhewouldwish e them t ul tu ri o s adopt,tsof this w ocuoludnht country e the to look efre t c o t t o le f e l m e a s d e i l n v g e s f h o e r a a g ri re medy of the evils of which they complained by a better cultivation of the land, and the employment of that in dustry and energy which distinguished all classes of Englishmen, and which they, too, possessed.—(Hear, hear.) For the reasons he had stated, he felt bound to oppose the motion which the Hon. Gentleman had made.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. CHAR FEE'S said he felt bound to support the motion. It appeared to him that the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House had been mainly directed t o show that the burdens on land had been considerably diminished in consequence of the increased value of house property during the last 30 or 40 years. But if the burdens were in themselves unjust, as he (Mr. Charteris) believed them to be, he felt that their being at present less than they had formerly been afforded no sufficient ground for opposing their removal. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire had based his claim for a removal of those burdens on the prevalence of agricultural distress. Now, he (Mr. Charteris) did not deny the existence t f that distress, although he did not attribute it to the same cause to which it had been attributed by the Hon. Gentleman, and he did not believe that it would be permanent. But he did not wish to come before that House/ n forma pau peril, while ho thought that he could claim redress as a matter of simple justice. It appeared to him that the Hon. Gentleman had damaged his case, and had preju diced the interest of his constituents, by making an appeal ad misericordiam in their favour. The question at issue wan, wh et is the law of England upon the subject of poor-law taxa tion ? That taxation _rested on the 43.1 of Elizabeth, which enacted that every man should be called upon to support the poor in proportion to his ability. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had attempted to show that Lord Mansfield was of opinion that pe - soual property did not come within the operation t f the statute. But Lord Mansfield had merely asserted the impolicy, or the im practicability, of so extending the measure ; and Lord Kenyon, and the other judges of England, had declared in the year 1795, that personal property, including stock in trade, was liable to the poor-rate. That liability was supposed in the preamble of the very Act which was passed each year for exempting stock in trade f,om the rate. That latter Act was,She believed.. 'un just in principle and temporary in its character, while the old law upon the subject was just and reasonable. The modern Act was only passed for a year, because no Minister would venture to propose the permanent operation of such a measure. —(Hear, hear.) Let it be remembered that the charges for lunatic asy lums and for the constabulary, the borough rate, the hundred rate, and several other rates, had of late years been added to the bur dens on real property. Now, it seemed to him to be only just that personal property should be made to bear its fair share of all these burdens —Meer, hear). But it was said that it would be impos sible to levy a rate upon personal property. Now, he could not agree in that opinion, for he believed that the raising of an income-tax clearly proved that a poor rate might be levied upon the profits of trade. He believed that in such cases where there was a will there was a way; and that the difficulties which were apprehended in the matter would, if boldly grappled with, rapidly disappear. But even if the Legislature and the Govern ment could not do justice to the agricultural interest in that way, then he said that they were bound to offer them compensation in some other form. He did not mean to fend the different modes in which the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire proposed that they should receive relief, because he was well aware of the force of the argu ment that a transference of many of those local charges to the general taxation of the country would open the door to abuse and to extravagant expenditure. There were other changes, however, which might be made without a liability to that objection, which he admitted to be a valid one, for be believed that this country owed much of her great ness to her system of self-government and her municipal institutions, and he should be sorry to see established among us that centralisation, or that bureaucratic sys tem, which generally prevailed throughout the conti nent. But it appeared to him that the charge for lunatic asylums, for gaols, for the constabulary, and several others, could be transferred to the Consolidated Fund without interfering with our system of local self-govern ment. He could not help thinking that manufacturers and fundholders ought to be made to contribute to the support of the peer and to other local burdens. They' were as much interested as the agriculturists in the inter nal tranquillity of the country. If there should be a disturbance in the manufacturing districts, it would not be the land, but the mills and factories that would be endangered—(Hear, hear)—and if th e re should be an i nsurrection in Lancashire: or Yorkshire, that would necessarily react on the Stock Exchange, and create a fall in the value of the funds. The agricultural interest had, therefore, a right to claim an alteration in the present mode of rating property, or some equivalent compensation if that alteration should be found inexpe dient.—(hear, hear.) Mr. ANDERSON said ho had given notice of an amendment to the motion of the Hon. Member for Buck inghamshire, but he thought it better not to bring forward that amendment, as it was, in his opinion, desirable that the motion of the HOD. Member should bo considered upon its own merits. He was happyrteott mss hi i nk po tha i t bi a e return to th e p ro t ec ti ve system was a t present in; his country. He had made as accurate an estimate t was in his power to have made of the sum which the inhabitants of these kingdoms bad since the year 1815 paid for their corn in addition to its fair and natural value, in consequence of the imposition of the corn-law; and after estimating that value at the price in foreign markets and the cost of freightage to this country, he found that that sum amounted, at the lowest calcula tion, to 750,000,0001., or about the whole of our national debt. held in his hand a paper, moved f by the Right Hon- Baronet the Momber for Ripon in 1815. relating to the: ce. burdens, from the year 1813 to 1845. It cppeared from that paper that the amount levied on real property it 1813, for poor and county-ral, was 8,646,8411., and ix 1849, 7,674,1461., being about 1,000,00fg.. less in 18 4rd for the home market. He should be sorry to view this ques•ion a; a class question; but if it were to be so viewed he should et and by his own class, which was the most important in the c ountry.—(llear, hear.) It the match were to be all England on one side, and Lenes shire and Yorkshire on the other, he should play on the side of all England, and not despair of success in spits of the hard hitting of the Ilan. Member for the West Ridnig of Yorkshire, or the somewhat crooked bowling of the Hon. Member for Manchester.—(A laugh.) The Right Hon. Member for Tatnworth expressed in 1840 his appro hensi on that the removal of protection would lead to unfavourable results, as regarded not only the agri cul•te hte but the classes identified with them in interest. It was not t Hansardise the Right Hon. Baronet that he made that reference; but because in then expressing the views he (Mr. Seymer) now en ter taine-1, the Right Hon. Baronet st ated the results of his previous rxp Tience, answered the speeches he had since male, and uttered predictions which had since been ve rified. If the Right Hon. Baronet Rere present he might ask, Had any one too much? No; many had not °lough, as any one might see from le•ters v. hieh had appeared in the Morning Chronicle. So much English corn was displace I for foreign; :eel if so much Eeglish !aheur were displaced wages f the whole would be re (laced. Thu reason why so little seemed likely to be done for relief of the dist-ess was that it was spoken of as temporary, because the price of corn was rising. Honourable Members seemed afraid of their own principles, for if they were to buy in the cheap est market the cheapest market could not be too cheap; yet attempts were making on the Minis t'rial ride of the House to show that prices would rise. Why. these Hon Gentlemen ought to prove th tt they would f,ll.—(hear.) There were two sections on that side—the friends of agriculture, who tried to show that this year was exceptional; and the Free-tnelers, who thought it would not matter if not a blade of corn was grown in the country. The argument drawn from the poor-law returns was fallacious; it cost the farmers less to employ labourers at low wages than to keep them in the workhouse. He agreed with the proposal of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire in thinking that the establishment charges under the poor-law should be transferred to general taxation. He knew persons allied with Free-traders who said, if there were not a change for the better in agriculture they would be prepared to consider the question.—(Hear, hear.) As there was a desire to divide to-night, if possible, he should detain the House further only to express his confidence that if they were to have no protection or re lief from local burdens, if Excise regulations inconsist ent with the first principles of free trade wore conti nued, they would defeat Hon. Members on the other side before the end of the session. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. RICE, while he could not think the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire expected the House to adopt his motion, would not have been prepared to object had the proposition been to appoint a Select Committee to in quire how fir these local burdens might have been ad justed so as to give relief to the agricultural interest. Had the Hon. Member for Orkney (Mr. Anderson) per• gated in his amendment he should have moved an amendment thereupon. [An Hoer. MEMBER—The two Kings of Brentford.] As long as Hon. Gentlemen ad hered to the idea of protection they would get no relief in any other way; till they had abandoned it the House would not fairly consider the question.—(cheers from the Opposition.) He had always voted for an alteration of the corn-laws with the Hon. Member for Wolver hampton (Mr. Villiers), but had supported the motion for a fixed duty, and thought a small duty for the pur mtNphioeeesnme>oucefersirsute.ibvoennihnueetThhweheoluldusifldaienrbmoehfeiarsTsn advantageous s e ttl e m en t o f handhla'neer Thanet, resolutions statingadvance f t t o h i f n e Far men' rni r opinion the battl e o f p rotect i on had been fought and lost. In lieu of protection they urged other measures of re lief, which were at least worthy of consideration. They urged that the income-tax should be levied in a different manner from what it was at present; that the parochial and county rates should be levied on property and in come generally; that the duty should be taken off malt and other similar articles, and placed on the import of such articles of agricultural manufacture as meal and flour, and, lastly, they asked that the salaries in all public departments should be reduced in a correspondieg degree with the price of provisions. Many of these pro positions he thought just, and all of them worthy of con sideration; but he rose chiefly to say that the agricul tural interest could hare no claim to these advantages until they had honestly abandoned all idea of a return to protection. He wished to see all these questions fairly considered on their merits; but he was not pre pared to vote for the very extensive measures of the lion. Member for Buckinghamshire. Instead of bringing these matters forward in a single motion, he agre:d with the Right Hon. Baronet that they should have occupied a series of resolutions.—(Hear.) Sir J. TYRELL said, he was remarkably well satis fied with tho speech which the Hon. Gentleman had just thought proper to make—as well satisfied as the lion. Gentleman could possibly be himself—(A laugh)— giving the House all the advantage of the various argu ments he had made use of, and admitting, as ho had done, the justice of those propositions which had been so ably advanced by his Hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire. He did not know, however, that he could give the Hon. Gentleman credit f m great disin terestedness, considering the proximity of the Isle of Thanet to the town of Dover, and the natural anxiety which the Hoe. Gentleman entertained with reference to the future representation of that town.—(A laugh.) It was true the farmers, as a body, had refused to petition that House, agreeing with the Hon. Gentleman that however just their claims they had little to expect from Parliamei t. They d:d complain, however, of the gr, at disrespect with which their clams had been treated by the First Minister of the Crown in the speech from the Phr,:ne. The Noble Lord and his colleagues said they had heard that certaln landowners and cceupiers of the soil complained, and that was immediately follow ed by an expression of satisfaction at the comforts which had been enjoyed by the great mass of the community in consequence :if the extreme depression and great lowering of prices. That seemed to him to be much the same sort of satis faction as a man enjoyed when he broke into the larder and robbed the till.—((;reat laughter.) The Right [lon. Baronet had drawn a great picture of the pro3pe. rity of the country arising from the diminution of the poor-rates; but ho (Sir J. Tyrell) would venture to say that that diminution, of nearly 400,0001., had arisen en tirely from the circumstance of great economy and a wetter management of the machinery of the poor-law, and not from any other cause. The agricultural into rest considered th emse l ves deeply grieved in another thing. An Honourable Gentleman of great ability had been put forward to move the answer to the speech, who, in his opinion, had been treated with somewhat of neglect and injustice. The Government had brought that Honourable Gentleman out, as ono of the brightest weapons in their armoury, finally to dispose of the question before the House. And now, with the per mission of the llonourable Gentleman, he would cha racterise him as "the destroyer," and the Hon. Member for the West Riding as " the divider of the spoil"— (A laugh)—and he would make good that proposition. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government said seine time ago, esith the greatest triumph and con fidence, " if it can be shown that the poor man pays 15., or 23., or 3s. a week more for his bread than he would otherwise pay, are you prepared to face that?" He (Sir J. Tyrell) answered that with this proposition. If the Hoe. Gentle:nau the Member for Wolverhampton, in the receipt of 1,2001 a year—no sinecure, ho admitted— could cause that 1,2001, to be equal to 1,5001. or 1,6001, he could q u it e un d ers t an d the Hon. Gentleman's readi ness and preparation to face that.—(A laugh.) That proposition perf ec tly square d w i t h hi s un d er standing.— (Renewed laughter.) In his opinion the Hon. Members for Wolverhampton and the West Riding ought at that moment to be sitting on the Treasury bench side by side with the llon. Member for Westbury, and he should like to know what offer had been made to the former of those two Hon. Gentlemen with reference to the accep tation of office, for he could not believe that his merits had been overlooked.—(A laugh.) He did know that a proposition had been made to the Hon. Mew ber for the West Riding to take his seat on the Trea sury bench, aed he knew the details of it. He (Sir J. Tyrell) hail made that statement once before in that House, and he hoped the Noble Lord would excuse him for asking this slight interrogation, viz., whether he did not know that to be precisely the fact?—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord smiled; but notwithstanding the num ber of years he had sat opposite to the Noble Lord, he was unable now to say, from the indication of his countenance, whether that slight interrogatory was answered, and whether the Hon. Member had been cffered office or not.—(Great laughter.) Ho would as sume, then, that silence gave consent. He would go still further, and tell the house and the country—for it was no breach of confidence—that a commissioner had been sent from the Government to offer office to the Hon. Member for the West Riding; and he would tell the House further the answer of the Hon. Member, for it sense ean which answer g characterised e nerally d b is ting ui y h s h et I e t h e sagacity lio andn. Gentleman g o d as a Member of that House. The Hon. Gentleman said, than in 1813, although the population had ircressedfr len 10,448,000 in 1813 to 17,715,000 in 1849. The num' ;07 who paid the rate had increased, while the charge 1 ad diminished from 12s. 8(1. a head to 6s. 61. per heal, 1 je .. ing a diminution f nearly a half.—(Hear, hear.) He came now to another point on which the Hon. Me& ier touched but lightly, and that was the proportion at which land was assessed, compared with other ki ads of real property, for the relief of the poor. He fuel understood the Honourable Member to say that the landed interest were assessed for two-thirds of the amoun t. —(Mr. Disraeli dissented.) lie begged the Hen. Meaab.rr's p srd,rn. He believed he hal not arivert.e.l to the subject, and it was therefore the more necessary that he (Sir G. Grey) should do so.—(A laugh.) 'Oll ref?rrin,g to the report of the Poor-law Cornmissionors of 1844, he found it stated that tie value of rats able pro perty had gre itly increased since 1513. In that year it was as , sessed to the value of 51,895,4231., but in 1843 it ha 1 increased t 85 807,7311. Su that the gross rave had decreased, although the value of real property had grestly increased. He f quid from subsequent reterns that a progressive him ale had taken pla-a; in the value of real property down to 1848: Iu the value was 51,893,4231. 1842 it had increased to 85,000,000/. 1844 f 1 86,000,0001. 1846 92 89,000,0001. 1848 - 91,000,0001. With regard to the proportion between the value (f land and the value of other real property, he held in his band a return which showed the increase of each at dif ferent periods. There had been an increase in the value of landed property, but not to so great an extent as the increase that had taken place in the value of other kinds of rest estate, such as house property and railways. It appeared therefore that land now ,said 45 per coat., in stead of 52, while other descriptions of real property paid 55, inste ad of 48 percent.—(Hear, hmr.) In the report of the Lords' Committ , e of 1846 it vs as stated that the rates had diminished, that property had augmented, and that the rates on the laud had been greatly re duced. He should not now enter upon the ques tion of the reductions affecting real property. He should only remind the House that in 1846 a sum of nearly 100,000/. had been transferred from the local taxation for the purposes of poor relief to the Consolidated Fund, and had since then been annually voted by Parliament. Having ant: cipated the two ob jections referred to, the Hon. Member for Bucks then claimed for real property an exemption from a large share of its present local burdens, en the ground that when they were imposed the protective system existed, and that it was unjust, now that that system had ceased, to exact these burdens to the same extent as before. But since the time of Elizabeth there hal been various systems of protection, and he thought it would puzzle the Hon. Member to show during the period that has since elapsed that corresponding advantages were en joyed by the land. There were other things which had been more highly prt - lectel than land, and the only difference between them and real estate in this respect was, that land was the last great branch of industry which lost its protection; and, therefore, if there were any grounds for the claim, land—rather than other kinds of industrial property which had been deprived of protection at an earlier period—should bear these bur dens.—(Hear.) The proposals of the Hon. Member for Bucks were embraced in three resolutions. In the firs instance, he propoFel that all established charges of the poor-law should be transferred from the local taxation —that they should no longer be borne by the property of England, Scotland, and Ireland, but that they should be paid out of the Imperial Treasury.. The Hon. Mem ber had estimated these established charges at 1,500,0001. but he believed the amount borne by England did not exceed 776,000/. Mr. DISRAELI—The last returnmade them 980,0001 Sir G. GREY—True; but in consequence of an Act which passed in the subsequent year there was a reduc tion in their amount of 200,0001. The Hon. Member for Bucks stated that the transfer would not violate any principle, as these established charges did not stand on the same ground as the funds necessary for the relief of the poor. — But there would be the greatest extravagance with respect to many of these charges if they were to take away the local check which at present existed. He believed if they were transferred to the Consolidated Fund it would be impossible to say to what extent these charges would be increased.—(Hear, hear.) The next proposition of the Hon. Member was that all other rates, county rate and police rate excepted, should be transferred from the local to the general taxation of the country. The amount of these different rates the lion. Member estimated at 500,0001., the total amount of the rates proposed to be so transferred being 2,200,0004 Looking to some of the items comprehended in the minor rates, he was not prepared to say that his Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he came to deal with any surplus revenue, might not consent to some alteration. At all eventl! he was not prepared to ask the House to negative, by anti cipation, the transfer of any particular charge, to which ❑o objection could be made, from the local to the general taxation of the country. In arguing against the pro posals generally, he did not wish to prejudice any future discussion as to the transfer of any of the smaller charges, such as that male in 1846 at the suggestion of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tarnworth. He was not prepared to say, that between those charges and those enumerated by the Hon. Member fir Bucks any distinction in principle existed which would justify the House in refusing to make the change. In resisting the present proposal, the Government were cot to be precluded from considering and bringing forward any proposition of the kind to which he had referred. The next proposal of the Hon. Member was, that the whole charge for the casual poor should also he transferred to the Consolidated Fund. The Hon. Member had not even attempted to estimate the expense of the casual poor of England, Scotland, and Ireland, but proposed to transfer it at once to the Consolidated Fund. corresponding session of last year, and was also much smaller than the ordinary average of committals for the period that had elapsed since the last session; and he said that, to whatever cause such a result was to be attri buted, it must be most satisfactory to every person con cerned in the administration of criminal justice, and also to the community at large. The Learned Recorder then said that by returns which were before him it appeared that there had been 593 less persons committed during the year 1849 than in the previous year; and be also congratulated the grand jury that robberies with violence, and other offences of that character, appeared also to be on the decrease. It might be said that that related to the 2,000,000 of the population within the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court. He should therefore show the same results in the last country quarter sessions, and he hoped that would satisfy the Hon. Member for Essex. In England and Wales the number of trials at the last quarter sessions in 1849 was 4,443—in the last quarter sessions, held in the present year, 1850, the number was 3,980, being a diminution of 463, or a de crease of about 10 per cent.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gen tleman, in introducing the subject, had said little or no thing about Ireland, and had not alluded to Scotland, no doubt because the report on the table with reference to the latter country did not strengthen his case. That re port did show an increase of the poor on the roll, but it also showed a remarkable decrease of that class best distinguished as the casual poor in the year 1849, as compared with 1848. He had received a letter from Sir J. M icneil, the President of the Board of Works in Scotland, dated the 29th January, who, in reference to this subject, stated—" Information upon this subject (the state of the working classes in Scotland) from all parts of the country comes incidentally bef ,re the board in the course of investigations as to complaints of in adequate relief. The information derived from this source concurs with all the other information to which I have access to establish the fa it that, except in some parts of the highlands and islands, the working classes of Scotland—agricultural, manufacturing, and mining— urban and rural, taken together, have not, during the four years that I have been connected with this board, been at any time so well off as they have been during the last half of 1849. There has been no other season within that time when the abundance of employrnen', and the general ade quacy of wages, with reference to prices, has enabled so large a proportion of the working population of this country to command an ample supply of the neces saries of life." He did not deny that distress existed, but it existed among the owners and occupiers, end in a much less degree than it did twelve months ago among the great bulk of the people. In many cases he believed their wages had been reduced to a greater degree than could bo compensated for by any reduction that had taken place in the price of articles of food. But speak ing g enerally, and more particularly of that part of Eng landwith which ho was connected, North Northumber land, he did not believe that wages had been reduced to a greater degree than would be compensated for by a re duction in the prices of the necessaries of life. He be- Hove I in some places in Lincolnshire, for instance where wages had been reduced so low as 6s. per week, the re duction had been made to fall unduly on the labourer, rents not having been reduced at all in pro portion.—(flear, hear.) He was surprised that in dealing with so important a subject as the poor-laws the Hon. Member for Bucks had alluded only parenthe tically to a part of the question of the greatest import ance to the great bulk of the population—the law of settlement.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman did not this year propose a great transfer of the local taxa tion for the poor, because he was aware it would load to a national rate, and the abolition of the law of settlement. If they were to go into Committee of the whole House upon the subject of the poor-law, the very first question they would have to consider would be the law of settle ment. All the evidence collected by the Committee on that question showed that the law of settlement ope rated prejudicially to the interests of the agricultural labourer—that it restricted his labour, and that the greatest boon to him would be a judicious alteration of that law. The subject had occupied the attention of the Government, and at no distant period he hoped to be able to make some proposal to the House on that most important subject. He should now refer to the grounds upon which the Hon. Gentleman rested his pro positions. The foundation of the whole argument of the Hon. Getleman was the injustice of exclusively bur dening the land with the payment of poor-rates. He thought the Hon. Gentleman had fallen into the same error this year as he had last, of confounding real pro perty with landed property. (Slr. Disraeli made an ob servation which was not heard in the gallery.) Let it be understood, then, that in speaking of the property which contributed 12,000,000/. of local taxation, they were speaking, net of what was called the landed in terest, but of real property assessed for the relief of the poor. The Honourable Gentleman said it was not just that property connected with the soil—those were his words—should bear exclusively that large burden, and the Hon. Gentleman spoke of land going out of cultiva tion in consequence of those exclusive burdens and of the continually increasing charges on land. Tho Hon. Gentleman had anticipated two objections—one he would admit, the other he would combat—the impos sibility of taxing personal property for the purposes of the poor, the other, that from time immemorial real property had been exclusively subjected to that burden. He would take the last first, and was prepared to contend that ever since the 43d Elizabeth, the great bulk of real property had been exclusively subjected to the burden of the poor-rates. The 43d. Elizabeth required that the rate should be on property visible and produc tive, and in the parish in which the owner resided. That condition could not exist with personal property, and therefore the Legislature excluded personal property from contributing to the relief of the poor. It was true that stook-in-trade had been deemed liable for poor-rate— (" Hear," from Mr. Henley)—but, practically, it had never been rated, and an annual Act was now passed to exempt it. Ott this subject he would read what was stated in the report on local taxation, laid on the table in 1844. It stated that stock-in-trade had been held liable only on the supposition that it was visible and pro ductive. With: regard to the second objection, if the impossibility of rating personal property should lead to a national rate, no benefit would be conferred on the agricultural interest; and that he conceived to be the great:objection to the plan proposed by the Honour able Member for Bucks last year. In alluding to the increased burdens imposed by Act of Parliament on real property, and levied as poor-rate, the Hon. Dlember for Bucks had omitted one important fact, and that was the growing diminution of these burdens on the land.— (Hear, hear.) Looking to the figures only, there ap deued increased burdens; but what were the facts? Ile Mr. DISRAELI—Not the expense of the casual poor of Ireland.—(Laughter.) Sir G. GREY—There could be nothing more ob jectionable tha❑ to transfer the relief of the casual poor to the public treasury. Those who looked to the reports of the Poor-law Board were aware that there was no end to the examinations that took place to keep down this branch of poor-law expenditure; but if the expense was transferred to the public treasury, there would be an end to the reductions that had taken place. He denied that anything had ever fallen from his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to justify the Hon. Member for Bucks in saying that the surplus, if any, f et the year would bo available fir carrying out bis proposition for the relief of the casual poor. But sup posing a surplus was available, it would neither be just ❑or reasonable, without taking a comprehensive view of the interests of the country, to anticipate the appropria tion of that surplus, or to pledge the House to apply it to the particular object sought by the Hon. Member, without considering how far it would really relieve the agricultural interest. He hoped the House was not pre pared, when the amount of the surplus was yet uncer tain—(` ar" from Colonel Sibthorp)—to make any appropriation of it. Supposing the sums which the lion. Member wished to transfer to amount t) 2,200,0001., it was desirable to know to what extent this relief would benefit the agriculturists of England. Of that sum only about 1,500,000/. was ap plicable to England. He could not understand what ad vantage would be gained by the agricultural interest by the taking off their share of the above taxation when it was plain they would lose the benefit of any other re duction that might be gained by a different application of the surplus or have to pay their quota of any new tax that might be found necessary.—(Hear.) He believed the actual amount t ) the agriculturist by the reduction proposed would not exceed 31. or 41 in the pound, and he did not think they would be very thankful to the Honourable Member for such an amount of relief. He did not know that he differed from the Hon. Member when he said, speaking of the incidence of taxation on land, that there was a community of interest between landowners and occupiers. On the point he would refer the House to a passage in the report of the Lords' Committee on the burdens on land. In that report it was stated that all fixed charges, such as tithes, were to be considered as a burden on the owner, but that fluc tuating charges during the tenant's holding were to bo considered as charges on the tenant, which he had an interest in diminishing, his rent being fixed. The moment, however, the tenant's occupation ceased, a new bargain was made, and the owner in creased his rent in proportion to the diminution of the charges on the tenant. In that case the landowner got the benefit in the shape of an increased rent. The Hon. Gentleman had said that his proposals were re commended to the House by their justice. But he (Sir G. Grey) did not think the Hon. Gentleman had este blished that proposition. lie had shown that the charges in questio❑ had been assessed ever since the passing of the 43t1 of Elisabeth ; and he had also endeavoured to show that the ground on which the Hon. Gentleman had claimed that concession to the landed interest— namely, the abolition of the protective system—was a ground which would equally apply to other branches of national industry to which the Hon. Gentleman did not propose to extend a similar favour. The Hon. Gentle man had said that his scheme was a practicable one. But he (Sir G. Grey) did not consider that it was prac ticable to the extent which the lion. Gentleman pro posed, because it would require a larger surplus of re venue at the end of the financial year than we were likely to have according to any cal culation that had yet been made. It would at the same time operate unjustly to other classes of the community, inasmuch as it would deprive them of any benefit which they might derive from a different em ployment of whatever surplus revenue might exist. He thought, also, that it would be unsafe, in many of its details, inasmuch as it would lead to extravagant expen diture by transferring a variety of charges from the local to the general taxation of the country. The Hon. Gentleman had laid that proposal before the House as one only of a series of measures which he wished to in troduce; but the House ought to be cautious how it adopted the first of that series, until the Hon. Gentleman should have told them what were the measures which were to follow, and where the money was to come from which was to give relief to the agricultural classes. They ought not to adopt that first proposal until they knew to what it was to lead, or where the Hon. Gentle man would invite them to follow. The Hon. Gentleman had said—and he (Sir G. Grey) believed truly—that he was not in the habit of making statements in the House which he did not make out of it. The Hon. Gentleman had certainly been very unreserved in his communications at 'public meetings in the country during the late re cess; and they were not altogether in the dark with re spect to the next proposal which the Honourable Gen tleman would probably make. He held in his hand what he believed to be a revised and authentic copy of a speech delivered by the Honourable Gentleman at the old baronial hall of Castle Headinghare, in Essex, " I can't accept office, because if I do my power with the people is gone—l shall no longer have that power either in the House or the country which I now have—my accept ance of office will altogether deprive me of that confi dence which I now enjoy."—(llear. hear.) That was in reality a great disadvantage to the a;ricultural in terest, because it enabled the Noble Lord, who traded upon the opinions that from time to timo filtered through the Manchester Chamber, to say that ho main tained the Government and the principles of the Consti tution, whilst he was not encumbered with any of those inconvenient sentiments which occasionally fell from the [lon. Member fir the West Riding, although they were not given utterance to in such unmistakeable language in that House as elsewhere.—(Hear, hear.) But the [lon. Member f n. the West Riding showed great saga city in his commercial manner of handling the question. He (Sir J. Tyrell) was at first not aware, that when the Hon. Gentleman declined to accept office, he was in re ceipt of a reward of 70,000/.. but seeing that he pocketed the dividends arising from that sum, he a hnittt d that the least thing he could do was to acknowledge it in the way he did.—(Hoer.) Af. er alluding, amidst considerable impatience to the inconsistency of the views enunciated at the late Russian loan meeting with the principles of free trade, the Hon. Baronet proceeded to complain that the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of the Home Department, on the present occasion, was a most unsatisf tctory reply to the address of the Hon. Member for Bucks. One part of it consisted of a reply to a speech delivered by the Hon. Member for Bucking hamshire last year; another part consisted of the re production of the leader in that day's Morning Chroni cle—(Laughter)—and the remaining portion alone was devoted to the address of his lion. Friend that evening. The Right Hon. Baronet had given the agriculturists credit for possessing indomitable energy and perseve rance; and, by Heavens! they would /160 those quali ties to obtain that justice to which they felt themselves entitled.—(llear.) Mr. I.IO3HOUSE considered the speech which had just been delivered. as well as that of the Honour- Mr. SEYMER, adverting to the indisposition of Members on the Ministerial aide to admit that agricul ture was in a depressed state, asked whether farmers must break windows to show that they were distressed, or talk treason to manifest their dissatisfaction ? The farmers would take neither of those courses, for they were proverbially a loyal body. But in the middle of the nineteenth century loyalty was not likely to assume a very romantic character. When a class found itself descending in the social scale the enthusiasm of its I)yalty was likely to suffer some abatement. This was emphatically a farmer's question, and he represented the opinions of his constituents in advocating the mo tion. The Honourable Member for Manchester would, perhaps, say that ho (Mr. Seymer) represented only 6,000 stupid farmers, whilst he himself represented 12,000 enlightened manufacturers. But in the United States the case was reversed, for there the manufacturers were in favour of protection, whilst the farmers wanted free trade. It was not at all clear to his mind that the cotton spinners had not made a bad'speculation in their free-trade move ment. On the other side of the Atlantic the same skill and energy on which the cotton spinners here relied, with coal and iron, and cotton grown on the spot, were to be found. With cheap labour the United Stites would undersell the cotton spinners of this country, wha would then be very glad, though too late, to have protection THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 20, 1850 - ----- and by his successor since, how could any man of ordie nary capacity and of common felling dare to get up and demand the restoration of a system which had entailed upon our poorer population such awful consequences as the re tarns demonstrated?—(hear, hear.) The Lion. Gentleman must n t put his proposition as in some sense a compensation for what the agricultural classes lust in 1546. The question was, whether his proposition was in itself just and reasonable.—(hear, he a-.) The people never acquiesced in that corn-law; there was a Member present who could recollect, probably, bow he had to make his way to the House through military and police in 1815, when that law was being r a •sed, and it was said that one gentleman dated his eonversion from a severe wound he received while guarding the llieuse.—(Laughter.) There were heads which could only be penetrated by arguments strongly enforced.— (" Oh, oh !") The Hon. Gentleman wanted to make out that ... the agricult ura l i nterest " was concerned in this question, and he said that the interest of the landlord and that of the t mare must now bo considered as or e. Ile and his friends play e d f ast and loose about Vila; onc e . " the agricultural interest" was said to mean almost no body but tenant-du -triers —now it w as the owners of real property that were to be benyfited. Perhap s a man would be claimed as belongin g t o t h e " egriculrurel in terest" nrxt if he lived in th e Haymarket or Lincoln's Inn-fie!ds.—( ' Oh, oh!") The result of the lion. lfetn ber's proposal ea.= to be to transfer 2,000,0004 of taxa tion now collected from land and buildings to the general taxation of the country, much the largest portion of which came from the great body of the people, and was paid in taxes upon articles they consumed ; and so, if (As he said) the 2,000,0001. formed a burden upon land, the occupiers of the soil were t) bo able to add thus much to the rental if the proprietors.—(" Oh, oh !") But was not the time gone by when Parliament would listen to proposals for removing taxes from property and placing them upon industry and consumption?— (Hear, hear.) Taxes had now been taken off which certainly in times of peace could never, again be imposed. Im posts upon imposts, and taxes upon consumption, had been found to be not only ni.t the most produo:ive, but to be destructive of the comforts of the people.—(liear.) The question was not between the land and the towns, for property in the latter would be at least equally ree lieved by this scheme; but the question was between the groat owners el property and those who hard been called the " Have-nothings," and who with this system of legis lating would have nothing to the end of time.—(Cries .._ if " Oh, oh I") He would ask Hon. Members opposite, " In what way do you intend to satisfy the clamour you excited or participated in during the recess ?' (Cheers and counter-cheers.) Oh ! ho (Mr. Bright) vs as not " the farmer's friend "—(lronical cheers)—he made no pretensions to the character, though in that House and out of it he would stand up for whatever was just to the termer.—(Cries of " Oh, oh!" from the Pro tectionists.) But he would not come to that Louse, after exciting clamour in the country on the ground that he was about to relieve the farming and occupying classes, and make a proposition which a child of five years old almost could discover had no reference to the ire-Tests of the occupier, but was solely directed to supporting the interests of the landlord.—( H ear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) stated 45 per cent. of the whole poor-rate was all that was paid by the land, the whole of which was not paid by agri cultural land ; so that all the relief the Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. Disraelea) proposition could give would be 45 per cent. to landlords, tenants, and ocou piers. He should like to have it defined how much of that would remain in the pockets of the occupying tenants in the farming districts.—(Hear, hear.) But the Chancellor of the Exchequer must continue on the farmer the taxes on tea, sugar, coffee, tobacco, wine, spirits, and malt, if the series of propositions the Hon. Gentleman threatened them with should be successful, and the great burden of the rates were to be trans ferred from real property to industry and articles of consumption. The farmers were having their eyes oreaed by these discussions.—(Hear.) A few days ago there had been a proposition for a County -rates Bill, but it had met with no favour from II in. Gentlemen oppc site.—(" Oh, oh.") In a short time it would be his duty to ask the House for the abolition or modification of the law which encouraged the preservation of game.— (Ironical cheering.) It would then be seen if those who called themselves the farmers' friends would bo ready to apply that great and just principle to a prat tical griev ance which pressed more heavily on the farmers than the poor-law union.—(" Oh, oh.") He should be delighted, too, if the farmers' friends gave a hearty support to the Tenants' Compensation Bill. If landlords were wise they would take another course. He was sorry, for more reasons than one, he was not a landed proprietor. It he was to would say to his landed brethren, that if trade was prosperous and manufactures increasing —if employment was more permanent and became at once steady and remunerative to V a labourer—if the list of criminals was annually decreasing —if the return of the Poor-law Commissioners showed that thousands and thousands of men, womer, and children had been dragged out of the mire of pauperism, arid placed in an independent and comfortable position, and if all those advantages could be presumed t.) flow from the free trade policy, as I e verily believed, then the position of a landed proprietor in England was the most fortunate and happiest in the country, for as trade exteneed so would comp, tition increase for land, for agricultural, ma nufacturing, and building purposes, as well as for et joy ment and pleasure, and while the popul Lion improved, how great would be his security for the enjoyment of the possessions with which Providence had blessed him 1 —(Cries of " Oft, oh!") To come to the House and make an appeal for compel , anon on account of the 4b , lition of the corn-la ws was wt.a. they would not have dove if they had known wl at was best f,r their it t rests. —(" Oh, oh!") Other trades »odd now come and speak of depreciation of capital, which had never sc ught for c.mpen?a ion before. Hon. Gentlemen opposite had ruled in that House in past times with undisputed away, Uu their county hustings they had t .1d the tarmers that they went to Parliament to ina;ntain agrieu!tural pros- perity and r, muntratirig prices of c , )rf . lie begge lof thew , ;f they v. ore sensinle men, to get tid ~f a:1 th,se delusions—(" Oh, oh!")—and nut t t lit their children and great grandchildr, I, read, as read they would, w ith astonishment the speeches they had nride.—(Li)ud cheers and cries of " Oh, oh.") lle was convinced the proposition before them had nut in the slightest degree any element of bete fit, improvement, or even of restitu tion to the tenant-farmer, and he would not be a party to a transfer of the taxation on a class not so heavily taxed as in other countries, or to a course which would reverse the policy they had been pursuing for the last seven years, with cons( quer cea, as he believed, most ad rantageous to our population and tending t) increase the value of every institution in` the kingdom.—(llear.) Mr. H. DRUMMOND said it would require grit e'er powers of mystification than those of the lion. Gs ntle man (Mr. Bright), or even the Honourable Gentleman who had introduced the debate, to persuade the farmers they were not suffering distress. The Honourable Gentleman was greatly mistaken if he supposed he (Mr. Drummond) had ever, directly or indirectly, i ncouraged the farmers to hope for a reversal of the past policy et the House. Many 3 ears since ho I ad de dared, the moment peace was established it would be impossible t) keep up prices at a higher average than prices on the continent. But, though the farmers felt themselves deeply aggrieved, he had never used his little influence t) excite them. They felt they had been be trayed by the men in whom they trusted, and they had felt deeply the injustice ef being made the means of ele vating a faction into power, who then kicked down the useless marchepied. They called conduct of that sort treachery—(lh ar, bear)—and I e heard their language with regret ; and while many of those to whom it efts applied were his friends:, he could not but be sorry t 9 see a body of able men condemned, however justly, to political infamy.--(Hear, hear.) By their acts those who had heavy fines fur church lands, within two years of that change, had teen distinctly de - frauded.—(Chcers.) This was not the first time largo bodies of the people had come to the doors of the House as suppliants proclaiming their distress, but it certainly was the first time, to his knowledge, that they had been treated with indifference—(Cheers)—and their statements of distress distinctly contradicted, as if they were not the only judges of the fait.—(Chi arc.) He could not help c entraeting the way in which the manu facturing and trading interests were treated when they were whining suppliants.—(Loud cheers.) Had they been sneered at or mocked? Had they been laughed at for not understanding chymittry ?—(CI sere.) The cournel cf the Hon. Membi r for the West Biding amounted to this—that the present race of farmers should try agricultural experiments, that they should ; ass into the workhouse, and then le, a happier and more enlightened lct of men succeed them.—(Laughter.) But was it not notorious that not a single English manufacturer had ever made a single useful disoovery in the arts?—(Cheers and laughter.) They lal,to be sure the Manchester shool, with its peculiar doctrines. Did any one ever hear of a Lavoisier or a Fourcroy in Manches er?— (Laughter.) Could they quote the name of one n.aeufacturer who had written on tie scientific principles of his business?—(Hear.) No; it was notori ous to this day these Mancerster manufacturers knew no more of the chemical nature if their dyes and pigments than the blocks on which they were printed. —(Loud cheers and laughter.) Had not the House taken pity on their dense stupidity and vulgarity when they confessed that nothing but the cheapness of their wares enabled them to find a market, for that there was not a man in Europe who would not prefer the better tas t e a nd more beautiful manufacture of France, or even of the Chinese ?—(Cheers and laughter.) In mercy to them the House established a school of design—(Hear, hear) —but so little had they been able to profit by it that the last report stated they drew as bad as ever.— (Laughter.) What he always said was, that free trade involved, not merely a class quest i on b ut a national question, and that the real matter at issue was not how to have corn cheap, but how to preserve equality of prices during years to come.—(Hear, hear.) Now, it would be found, on reference to the House if Lords' report, that in Datezic, the port through which a greater ernoure of corn passed than rely other, there I ail been the greatest ameunt of fluctuation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had given a most satisfactory account of trade and manufacture, but he had not stated how much we had paid for it.— (Hear, hear.) It was forgotten that by their system the help had been destroyed, and that they had create I the distress in the north-west of Scot land, and ha'l aggravated it in the nortlewed of Ireland; that they had Oestroyed half the value of the timber of England, half 0 e value of bark, and that now they ha I destroi ed ore-half of the capital of all the tenant farmers in the country, for they had reduced wheat from 80s. to 40s. a quarter. Thu necessary consequence was that every tenant who had been farming with borrowed capital must fail, and every landed estate that was mortgaged must be sold.—(Hear, hear.) This was the end at which lion. Gentlemen opposite had been driving, and why, when they had accomplished their object, did they not 'admit it? He would venture to say that the amount of property that had been destroyed by their plic , was at least Equal to that which they said it had increased. He contended that the system supported by lion. Gentlemen opposite bad been a system of class able Member for East Lothian (Hr. Charteris) to b, singularly ilogical. He went along with these gentlemen when they asserted the inequality of the local taxation of the country, and also when they main tained that land and real property were burdened t, greater exteet than nay other species of property; but ho de lied that a re-isteblishment of the mu sh-heleuherl Act, the 43d of Elizabeth, would remedy the evil—the inequalities which existed under that Act being altneet as great as those which existed at present.—(Hear, hoar.) Neither could ho imagine that the proposition of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire was at all calculated to mend the matter.—(Hear, hear.) That Hon. Member proposed that from 12,000,0001, of local taxation they should deduct 2,000,0001., and leave the other 10,000,0001. to be assessed iu the same unequal manner as at present. He (Mr. Ilobhouse) confessed he could not see much relict in that. He feared, in deed, that it was impossible from the nature of things to assess property with perfect ruelity under any sys tem whatever, and that it was necessary to overlook some inconsistencies fur the sake of the general good. The Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Tyrell) had attributed the reducCen in the peo--law expenditure to the diminution which had occurred in the cost of provisions; but, it the Iloa. B aronet would take the trouble to consult the last report of the Poor-law Beard, he would find that there was also a conliderable diminution of the number cf paupers.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire had claimed a certain amount of exemption for the agriculturists, on the ground of the peculiar taxation to which they were ex posed. The fact was, however, that upon this very plea they had been relieved from 6,000,000/. of taxation since 1815.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had also said that the existing distress among the agricultural classes had beer strangely coincident with the recent changes in our commercial legislation, He (Mr. Hobhouse) did not deny that it had been so; but he asked the agricul turists, in a spirit of perfect fairness, whether an equal amount of distress had not often occurred during the period of protection?—(Hear, hear.) Believing that t'e proposal of the lion. Gentleman would tend to the ad valtage of the landlord alone, and not to that of the te nant or labourer, and being confident that it would re mere none of the inequalities complains I of, he should, as the representative of the capital of an important agri cultural district, vote against it without the slightest dis trust or hesitation.—(Hear.) Lord J. MANNERS said, that because the Hon. Gentleman did not conceive this measure calculated to remove a'l the distress complained of, that was no re:- son why he should not assent to it as calculated to re move a portion of that distress. Until he heard are speech of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite he had imagined that no man who admitted the distress of the agricultural interest—and who was there in the House that did not admit it?—would refuse to adopt the rea sonable and practicable proposition of his lion. Friend, exempt as that proposition was from any tendency to inflict injustice upon any class.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman indeed seemed disposed to gloss over the existence of that distress by certain assump tions as to the diminution of pauperism and of crime; but the test he suggested seemed of a rather fallacious character. The Right Hon. Gentleman, for example, contrasted the stale of crime in 1848, the exceptional year of manufacturing distress, with the state of crime in 1849, a year—he feared not the exceptional year —of agricultural distress. Now, the logical inference to be drawn, if any were to b 3 drawn at all from this compari son, was, that the agricultural community under suffer ing and privation was less turbulent and less disposed to crime than the manufacturing populations.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet further argued that pau perism haddimiuished, yet the last returns presented to the House showed the Poor-law Commissioners painting in very gloomy colours the presort condition and future condition of the agricultural labourers. The Right Hon. Barone: seamed to say that in the northern counties of England agricultural distress was compara tive unknown; now he imagined that Durham ssas an agricultural county. [Sir G. GREY—No; it is a mining county.] And in that county he found a masked in crease of pauperism.—(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet seemed much disposed to turn the attention of the House to some other point, but the practical manner in which the House should legislate on this subject was to keep to one thin.; at a time, and ho had heard no one argument on this occasion why the one thing proposed by his Hoe. Friend should not be kept to until it was effected. It had been urged as an objection that in 1813 the poor-rate was higher than in 1849; but it had been precisely one of the arguments against that system in force in 1813, that cages ware constantly paid out of the allowance fund. It was always put forward that the Manchester gentlemen desired no immunity for any class; he called upon the Manchester gentlemen, then, to support this motion, which went to remedy great national distress without in flicting any injustice upon any particular class of the community, fir he conridered it no injustice that fund holders, mortgagee!, annuitants, and others who had b, en hitherto ex , mpt from this most legitimate liability should be brought within the :scope cf so essentially na tional a taxation.—(Boar, hear.) If the manufacturers were sincere in their professiens, if they really desired no immunity for any class', they must of necessity vote with his Hon. Friend. All that was proposed was to carry out the principle laid down in 1845 by the Right Hon. Member for Tam worth, that property, of whatever description, personal alike with real, ought to bear its fair proportion of local taxation, so that the burden might be justly distributed.-(Hear, hear.) They were seeking to carry out this principle in no spirit of injus tice to any particular class, in no spirit of hostility to the Government, but in a spi:it which should command for the resolution of his Hon. Friend the sympathy and approbation cf all candid and impartial men.—(flesr, hear.) It was not meant for a moment that the rest,- lotion was proposed as representing the full debt of justice due to the agricultural interest.—(Hear, hear.) All that was contemplated by it was, the mitigation of the great and grievous injustice which now op pressed that interest with most unequal burdens.— (Hear, hi ac.) As an example of this, he would men tion that in a manufacturing township near Leicester, composed of 978 inhabitants, of whom not above 100 were engaged in agriculture, there was a farm of 241 acres, which contributed to the poor-rates of the parish, in six years, no less a sum than 6151. 145., or more than 100 per annum, being at the rut s of Bs. Gd. per annum per acre, the rate being applied to the relief, not of the 100 agriculturists, but to the relief of the whole population. Casting himself across the Channel, he saw the agricultural interest in a most oppressed condition owing, in a very great measure, to unequal burdens. Now, his lion. Friend's proposition would relieve agri culture in Ireland to the enormous extent of 500,0001, per annum. Year after year the English Members of that House bad been called upon for large payments to enable the Irish poor-law to work; and year after ye it the same demand would be renewed unless the views of his Honourable Friend were adopted. Most heartily therefore, as an English Member, del he support these views, because lie conssidero l them calculated to re lieve agricultural burdens, and to extend agricultural employment.—(Hear, hear.) A good deal t ad !Ace said about the casual poor, or what we commonly call in England" vagrants." He particula-ly desired to know how much longer these vagrants, making their way about the country, were t ) b e sa ddl e d on the funds of the parish in which the relieving officer happened to reside instead of upon the funds of the union. —(Haar.) Cap tain Robertson, in his most able report, insisted upon the absolute necessity of action upon this subject. The Noble Lord said, in conclusion, he supported, and with out any misgivings of the future result, the course taken by his lion. Friend, because it was the course of honour and of justice, because ho believed it to be practicable, and because he was convine4d that, by one common justice, it would redress the common injustice which had been inflicted on the agriculture of the United King dom.—(Hear,) Mr. BRIGHT said, that certainly the spech of the Honourable Member fur Buckinghamshire was of a somewhat more practical charweer than usual, with lc as tendency to mystify the House and the country; but still he could not refrain from expressing his strong behof that both the House and the country would soon dis cover that the grounds on which the Honourable Gentle man based his proposition were altogether untenable. The Honourable Gentleman's speech was based ch'efly on the fact which many gentlemen seemed disposed to admit, without question, that there prevailed through. out the country a very alarming amount of agricu:torat distress, and that in some way or other this proposition was intended as a compensation for the loss of the corn law; and that, while giving great advantage to the class which the Honourable Gentleman peculiarly advocated, it would not operate unjustly upon the other classes of the community. He (Mr. Bright) was not disposed to admit without question that there existed this great agricultural distress that had been talked of. He him self knew, and ho was sure there was scarcely a gentle man in the House who did not know, that there were cases of tenant-farmers who during this very year were carrying on their agricultural operations, not only not with a loss, but absolutely with a profit.—(Laughter, and cries of " No, no!" from the Protectionists.) The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), who had not stated one well-authenticated case in which the fee of land had been depre ciated in value, or the rent permanently lowered, said that the farmers, with 300,000,0001. engaged in the cul tivation of the soil, were cultivating it without profit, and that the fee of the land had lessened in value. He (Mr. Bright) was disposed for the most part to dispute it; but, admitting it, for the sake of argument, had the llon. Member never cast his eye over the condition of other kinds of property during the last four years—the condition of the mining districts, the iron manufacturing interest, the condition of the owners of mills in all our great staple manufactures? Had he inquired whether the selling price of houses in towns was as high now, or had been for the last three years, as it was previously? Had he n ever cas t hi s e y e over th e s h a re list? and, with regard to the railway interest, let him remember that the through the poor-rates of the 3,000 parishes in England which railways passed 'ere but 800,000/., and rail ways pa'd 250,000/. of it.—(flear, hear.) Thu 11. n. lawG e n r t e t m u r a n n s for it would in')re r g e i c N e ' e n t t o o p o r h o a f d th n e ot tr a o s u k b ell e s b a e i c d a because e pare them; but neither he nor any of his friends were likely ever at any future time to more for returns cf poor-rate with tho view of proving the distress of th e country, and thereupon b as i ng an y application ti the House for a return to th© protective system, or a transfer of rates from what he called real property to the ordinary taxation of the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) The last speaker, indeed, doubted whether the H ome Secretary was right as to pauperism and crime, and whether the price of food had so much ieflueece in the matter; but he would find that the commitments in England rose from 20,600 in 1836, when prices were low, to 32,000 in 1842, which was the termination ef souse years of high prices, and after that (with falling prices of food) declined again till the fall was checked in 1847, when the price of food was such as " to r emunerate the farmers and landed proprietorz.'—(" Ohl") In the f.tce of the facts brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir . J. Graham) when in office, '