The Sun. — London, England, 1850-06-22 00:00:00

separate system for the Catholic Church in Ireland, and endowing it with a separate fund. Where were the funds to cotIlf! from ? He was convinced that, besides being more cossly from the maintenance of separate esta blishm , nze the Protestants of Ireland would not ap prove of such a system. It was unfair and unjust for Hon. Gentlemen concurring in the object of the present motion, to tax Protestant clergymen in Ireland who were of a different opinion, with acting in opposition to their ordination vows, and with supporting a system which they well knew to be anti-scriptural. He believed that the motion would destroy the present system of na tional education in Ireland, and, considering how much good that system had done and was doing, he hoped the House would not consent to supersede it by another which was sure to prove expensive and unpopular. — (Hear, hear.) Me. NEW DEGATE, its expressing his intention to support the motion of the Hon. Member for the University of Dublin, said he did so not from any inten tion of diminishing the privileges and advantages of parties who dissented from the Church Esta blishment, but from the belief which he had that it was quite possible for the House so to modify the existing system, as to do damage to none, and pro bably advantage to all. The modification which they sought to introduce would not supersede the existing system; and further than this, it would be a con cession to the religious views of all parties. He would call upon the Government to regard these conscientious convictions: not to do so was an act of tyranny. The Noble Lord regarded this principle so far that he would release a few from a durability, although there were but forty thousand of the community in the country. He ought then to consider the religious scruples of the Church of Ireland. Was it to be argued because the Church of Ireland had property that they should be ex cluded from these grants. Was not the Church of Eng landricher, and it participated in these grants? Could it be pretenare that the Roman Catholics in this country could complain of poverty? He saw churches, convents, and monasterie; springing up on all sides. He did not know whence the funds came, but he Ad not think they were English. In Ireland there were 2,400 schools in connexion with the Roman Catholics, and but 95 under the control of the Church of Ireland. The Bible could not be suspended. Mr. E. H. STANLEY, after stating the difficulty which he felt in replying to the speech of the Honour able - Member for the University of Dublin, said that he recollected that the principle on which the revolution ' was eff,eted in Dublin was that of entire toleration. He hoped the Hon. Member would extend to him the benefit of that principle,. and wouldeolerete the conscientious diffetenee of opinion which he entertained on this occa sion. He had been a little surprised to hear something which was urged by the Hon. Gentleman. It was urged by the iThn. Member for the University of Dublin that the whole system of national education, as established in 1831, w as irreligious and unscriptural. The Hon. Mem ber for Warwicksbire made a charge that they had, in many instances, departed from the objectionable system. Again, he had heard it stated—in fact, it seemed to be assumed as a point on which no dispute or difference of opinion could exist—that the Bible was excluded from the national schools. He entertained serious doubts as to the accuracy of that statement. He found that the only sense in which it could be said that' the Bible was excluded was this—that when the 'Bible was read in the school Roman Catholic children 'had the option of leaving the school. He did not see bow the principle would be strengthened by any regulation which would make it compulsory on Roman Catholics to make it a rule to attend to reading the Bible: It was a matter of some importance to con sider: two points; they ought to consider what was the system snpersz3led by the new ones,' and, if they abolished' the present system, what they were prepared to substittre. He would endeavour to show the inten tionevitVedlaietiehi; national schools were established. He found it was stated by the Secretary for Ireland in 1831, reserring to several previous Commissions, which had issued on the subject of education, that the opinion expressed by the' Commission of 1812 was, that no plan of edpeation for Ireland, however wisely contrived in other 1 espects ' could be carried into operation if attempts were made to disturb peculiar religious opinions. There was a general concurrence of the Committees from 1812 down to the establishment of the national schools, that no system feuudsd on proselytism could succeed in Ireland. The Society for National Education in Ireland in 1.786 was instituted in Ireland to give instruction on liberal principles. The society was inadequate to the wants of the people. In 1311 a similar society was set on foot on a larger scale. The principles of the Kildare-street Society, as he understood them, were briefly these. The first principle was that which his Hos. Friend in 1850 despaired of, viz., that of a united education. Another principle was that the Scriptures should be read, but read without note or com ment. The permission or injunction left absolutely un settlsd the whole of the difficulty of the question, for it was left out of the question how mach should be read, when it should be read, or by whom. The Kildare- street Society fell almost into the hands of the Protest ants. The reading of the Scriptures at all hours, and all places, was very general. Against such a system the Roman Catholic population protested. It was de clared by .them, teat they did not intend to go upon any proselytising principles ; but some years after their in stitution they united their efforts with those of another society fir the diffusion of religious instruction called the London Bible Society, who pretended to be what the Kildare -street Society pretended not to be—proselytisers. It very much altered the case when in 1812 the Govern meat took the Society in hand, and when they found that it had not the least confidence of the Roman Catholic population. 13eore the present syst?m of national education was established. a full and searching inquiry was made into the state of Ireland generally. In the Committeeof 1830, llr. Musgrove was asked whether the success of any scheme would - depend entirely on the exclusion of sectirian or religious controversy? He said he had established two schools, and had told the people that if they wished to read the Scriptures they could do so, but he wuuid not insist upon it. He thought it likely that under that system the number of scriptural readers would ultimately he increased, but not in the first instance. Captain Rolt Owen gave exactly similar testi mony. Mr. Barrou stated that this condition of oblige.- tory Scripture reading led to difficulties. It had not a tendency to increase Scripture reading, quite the con trary; there never was a more effectual way of discou raging the reading of the Scriptures. Again, Mr. Dufaur said that he had long been of opinion that compulsory reading was not likely to attain the object for which it was intended. Here were three successive testimonies ex actly to the same effect, but there was another testimony which was invaluable, that of R. R. Doyle, Roman Ca tholic Prelate, who said that the societies in Dublin 10:pith had been f amded to promote education were attended by none of the Roman Catholics. They had been the sources of numerous complaints between in feriors and superiors. Altogether they have been pro ductive of much evil and discord, and he thought it de sirable that they should he put an end to. There was not one particle of evidence on the other side ; but the testimony entirely confirmed the opinion which he had formed, that various jealousies were produced by the Kildare school. Thie was a prima facie ground for saying that the system ought to be altered. In the very last report as to the Kildare-street schools, he found it stated the: "40 of these; schools were in Mun ster, 112 in Cennanoht, 247 in Leinster, and 2,112 in Prote.tant Ulster. In the report on this subject which was made two years ago, he found, that out of the whole amber who attended these schools, more than half were Roman Catholics. Considering, then, what was the whole population of Ireland, was it not manifest that schools attended in equal numbers by Horn 111 Catholics and Protestants, must be schools which did not give equal benefits to the whole population? Ho had not heard from any Honourable Gentleman who had spoken one single proposal to substitute anything else. He would not enter into a defence of the existing system of schools; he would say they bad worked incomparably better than any system which had preceded them in Ireland. What were the means of education which it was possible to adopt ? It was cer tainly possible to give secular education. It was equally possible to eeteblish schools for the exclusive benefit of the,Proteetante. That, he apprehended, was not desired by. any gentleman in the House. What, then, was the alternative ? Only one. They had it in their power to !ones", the system that, under different circumstances, 410, to a certain extent, been carried on in England, and establish separate schools fur Roman Catholic and Pro te"ult e ducation- He thought the system of united edu cation to be a very important one. But he had another objection, and that an important one. He said that in t h e part of Ireland with which he himself was ac quainted—that in two-thirds of Ireland, throughout the wide-spread country, in which the Roman Catholic popu • lation had a predominant majority, the sole effect of establishing separate schools for. Protestants and Roman Catholics would be to deprive the Protestant population of the benefit of education at, all. In the neighbourhood with which he was acquainted, Tipperary, the Roman Catholic population was in the proportion of 200 to 1. If they were to establish separate schools they would not be able to get a sufficient number of Protestant children. In order to establish a school for 200 they would have to bring them a distance of twenty miles. Therefore, he said, the only system which he had yet heard any pro posal to substitute for that which now existed was ins. practicable and undesirable, and feeling that he should vote against. the motion. Lord JOHN MANNERS said that in the few ob servations which he should offer to the House he should e abstain from saying one word as to the merits of th respective . , systems of education that had prevailed in Ireland. Tne question before the House was, what was the best practical educational system? That was in some degree a Church question. The difference between the educational systems of England and Ireland, was extremely perplexing. He entertained great doubts whether the ey stern in Ireland was a combined system of education, lie thought that when they talked of the combined'system they talked of a system which virtually did not exist. In the town of Armagh there were two schools. , The one. was entirely devoted to Roman Catholic children, and the other to the children of Pro testant... No man gould be compelled to do that to which his conscience objected. One man says that the State can provide a system to educate all the children in the country; .and another men doubts that. One man upon voting money for educational pur poses in Ireland, said that Government was bound to disregard the feelings of the people, and unother said the reverse. As a Member of the nutted Church of England and Ireland, he could not be ' ireliffeeent to the feelings of the Church of Ireland, and when the venerable primate of that Church, and 1,700 of the clergy and laity expressed their sentiments in a petition tp that House, ho hoped that they would not be disregarded. , They asked for equal • justice and facilities for educating their own children, and, con curring in their views, he would give his hearty support to the Motion, 4 sr. F4l-0-44‘ Niieli!thet such_ a change as. that de sired`in the system of education in Ireland would be extremely dangerous. In this country each atiaociatien • THE receiving money-grants from Government, confined themselves to educating their own children, but that was not the case with the Church Education Society in Ireland. The Kildare-street Society was abolished for refusing to carry out a system of education, unless under certain restrictions. The same exclusive prin ciples actuated the Church Education Society in Ire land, and upon that ground alone lae would oppose the motion. There were various other religious so cieties, who were pledged not to carry out education, except under their own peculiar t-nets. If they granted the aid required to the Church, then every other religi ous society would be entitled to demand it.—(Hear, hear.) The • national system was a most admirable system, considering - that it was founded upon the old system. He considered that religious instruction was abundantly accorded by all religious denominations to their children in Ireland. The Roman Catholics held that the Scriptures should not be put into the hands of children of tender years as a school-book. There were now 800 schools in Ireland where the Bible alone was taught, and 800 others in which Bible and Scripture lessons were both taught. That made 1,600 out of 4,400 were the Scriptures were taught. Therefore the Hon. Member was not justified in stating that the Scripture was not taught in the schools in Ireland. It was a mistake to say that the Catholic clergy were opposed to the high scientific and literary instruction imparted by the national system. For these reasons he must oppose the motion. _ _ Sir HARRY: VERNEY raid that the national edu cation which had been lately introduced into Ireland was, so far as he could learn, attended with no beneficial re sult. He contended that the Hibernian Society schools were of the greatest benefit to Ireland, and that the pre sent system was far inferior to that which preceded it. Again, he would refer to the Kildare-street Society, end he was prepared to prove that never was any system of education so beneficial or so much admired by the Ro man Catholic parents of the children attending those schools. He then referred to the thousands of Romer' Catholic children who attended those schools, and who were known to have been educated, not only in the ge neral system of temporal interests, but their moral edu cation was fully approved of by the gentry in their re• spective neighbourhoods. He would ask the Irish Mem bers and the Government whether there was any alle giance on a late occasion evinced by those who had been educated at the national schools which were in existence for the last eighteen years without producing any fruit or benefit whatever? - • Mt. HEALI) said that he felt it his conscientious duty to support the motion of the Hon: Member (Mr. G. A. Hamilton), for he consideied that the money to be afforded - to.. the' ii . attonat . system of education was• not distributed to all parties in Ireland, no matter what their religious , Opinions might be. He should say that the objection raised by the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Fagan) could have;no weight on the House, for it is the peculiar characteristic of Christians that the members of every religious persuasion should exert themselves to gain to their creed every one whom they considered was in error, and he was glad •to say that the Noble Earl (Earl of Arundel and Surrey) very justly advccated the same principle on a very late' occasion. He was asto nished that any member in thatilOUse should deny that the Established Church in Ireland was not an integral part of the Church of this country, for, he would ask, was not the doctrine of the one Church the same as that of the other—(Hear, hear)—and were not the interests of both churches, the English and Irish, identified? This, he contended, served as ,a proof that they were one and the same in interests and benefits, and that on these ground& he should support the ;notion. Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, the subject now before us is sufficiently_important and difficult to induce us not to mix with it any question with regard to the Church Establishment in this country Cr in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) The question now before us concerns a system of education which is aided and supported by grants voted in this House and collected from the taxes paid generally by the people of the United Kingdom, and is, therefore, a question totally apart from any question that may be stated or debated With respect to the Church Establishment in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to this question then, I should say, in the first place, that in disposing of these grants, as a matter of justice we ought to make the benefits of the education which we give as extensive as possible.—(Hear, hear.) We ought to diffuse as widely as possible among the chil dren the benefits of the education that we propose to aid, and it would not be a fair and just application of the money thus derived from the taxes if upon any nar row and exclusive principle we were to distribute these grants. But, in the next place, as a matter of policy and expediency, I should say, if you wish your grants to be useful—if you wish to diffuse the bene fits of instruction upon secular subjects, in morality, and in religion, amongst the people of Ireland, that it should be your object to have such a system as would not pro voke opposition and jealousy in the very outset and commencement, and that you should endeavour to avoid all those rules and regulations which may induce the suspicion that you are attempting to convert that which isthe largest, the most numerous, and the poorest sec tion of the people of Ireland to the religion of that other section which has in its hands the greatest proportion of the power of the state in this country, which is the richest in Ireland, and which, by endowments and other wise, is most likely to use its power for the purposes of proselytism.—(Hear, hear.) Both on the ground of justice and policy, therefore, if you mean to be just and fair towards the people of Ireland—if you mean to diffuse education as widely as possible—it is your bounden duty to avoid giving your grants in such a manner as may in duce the belief that you mean, in proposing to promote education, to convert the children of Roman Catholic parents to the religion o ithe Protestants. The lion. Gentleman who has just addressed the House, inde speaking of the earnestness with which religion should be inculcated, says that he has no objection to proselytism. Ho avows that proselytism would bo a part of his object; but if that were the case, his very ob ject, I submit to him, would be defeated, because immediately that you declare to the Roman Catholic clergy and laity of Ireland that your purpose is not to give them a good education, but that your purpose is proselytism, they are themselves against that purpose, and your grant becomes a grant given only to a small portion of the people, fir those who dread that prosely tism, or who consider it a fraud upon them to attempt it under the guise of school learning, will indignantly re. ject it.—(Hear.) Now, if these are right principles, then we come to that which I shall certainly not venture to attempt to explain to the House after the able state ment which we have heard from the Hon. Gentleman (~sr. Stanley), who has not only shown great ability in defence of this cause, but in addition to that great ability has an hereditary right to defend the cause of education. —(Heer, hear.) In adverting to the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, I must refer to the vary di`'- ferent conclusion which was arrived at by the Commis sioners of education—l believe a Commission originally begun by one to whom I am nearly related, the Duke of Bedford, when Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and after wards continued. [The Noble Lord then read an extract from the report of that Commission, to the effect that they indulged more confident anticipations of success if all interference with the particular religious tenets of those who were to receive instruction in the national schools were, in the first instance, unequivocally disclaimed and effectually guarded against; that they conceived this to be of essential importance to any new establishment for the education ;of the lower classes in Ireland; and they expressed their unanimous opinion that no such plan, however wisely and unexceptionably contrived in other respect., could be carried into effec tual execution in that country unless it were explicitly avowed and clearly understood as its leading principle that no attempt should be made to influepce or disturb the peculiar religious tenets of any sect or description of persons.] This was tho conclusion arrived at by men who were custinguished ornaments of the united Churches of England and Ireland, and who had, in addition to their attachment to the principles of their Church, a knowledge of the condition of the people of Ireland, with whom they had to deal, and knew what would be a com plete and effectual bar to the 'success of any plan that might be proposed. -Now, considering the whole his tory of past events, and the history also of voluhtary societies, it IS no wonder that the Catholic clergy and laity should be peculiarly jealous—that they should be peculiarly sensitive in regard to any plan of national education for that country. And when they heard that the Bible, according to the authorised version of the Pro testants, was to be read in these schools, that they should regard it with suspicion, as an attempt to seduce them from the religion of their fathers, and induce them to adopt the Protestant religion, was, I must say, natural and almost inevitable.—(Hear, hear.) With this view, then, Lord Stanley, in founding the present eductional system in Ireland, declared that all suspicion of proselytism must be carefully guarded against. Well, these schools were thus established, and aided by grants made by this House, and what has been their progress? From 107,000 children taught in these schools in the year 1833, they have advanced to 480,000 children in 1849.—(Hear, hear.) They have established admirable normal and model schools in Dublin and elsewhere, and agricultural schools in various parts of the country, thus aiding and assisting not only in the promotion of religions learn ing, but likewise in the knowledge of those arts which are most likely , to advance the people of Ireland in in dustry and civilization.--(Hear, hear.) ' They have, therefore, a f ter seventeen years' experience ' strong ground fo r asking the support of this House. They come before y ti o n u ua w n i c t e h toirstrong case for the further support and con think, entitleldheetaoilsethsgtem. They come beffire you, I that unless there be made out an overwhelming. we h tr e it t i l terfering with that system, you should say, which the various sects of Christians in search of a plan by bined education in Ireland. haveßte e tians would receive corns at a system which in the course of at length arrived m o il s li e a v a en a tr a n hi y ld e r ar n s has a come to this point, that half maintained in those schools and receive education children t h em . We will not intemperately or hastily discard such a s y s t e m, but allow it to go on, and see if it will not bear fruits which will be highly advantageou s to the people of Ireland."—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who pro poses to interfere with this system does so, first, upon the ground which has always appeared to me to be a ground which, though plausible, is entirely untenable, namely the conscientious scruples of the Protestant clergy and laity. Now, I could understand very well that the parents, whether Protestant or Catholic, 'may say, " Here is a system of education which interferes with my religious belief, and does not allow my child to receive that education which I conceive to be necessary, and you should not by public grants force me to support this system." BUt the objection made by the Hon. t obligedbt that to t a Gentleman (Mr. Heald) is entirely of a diffetent na ture. rletcieisvne an educationotthatchil dre w n, h b ic e h ing is Pr n o o t t es p ta r n o t t s e , s are ta Protestant, children of a different faith are not compelled to receive an education which is sufficient for Protestant children.— (" No, no," f r o m t h e C onserva ti ve benches.) That cer tainly was what I understood by ,the proposition made in firmer years, and by the-proposition made this year. that Upon the t es ti mony o f persons o f grea t authority, is, in fact, the principal objection which has been taken. It was the Bishop of Cashel, I think, who at a meeting in Dublin, declared that a Protestant child might - receive in the national schools a good Protestant educa tion; but what he objected to was, that the Bible was not admitted as a school-book in the schools in which Roman Catholic children were taught.—(Hear, hear.) I hold in my hand a pamphlet writtenday Mr. Sadler, a clergyman, in which he gives an account of his own school, and who, on being asked if he would become the patron of a national school, said he agreed to it, and then be describes what is done in that school in the way of religious education. (The Noble Lord here read an extract from the pamphlet, which stated that the children in the school were daily taught to read portions of Scripture which contained the essential doc trines of the Gospel, and that when the school hours terminated they retired to separate rooms for the pur pose of receiving the religious instruction approved of by their parents.) After this, I think no person is en titled to say that the Protestant child is obliged to re ceive a religious education which is at variance with the conscience of his parents. There are some of these schools from which peculiar religious instruction is ex cluded, but this, I believe, has been done at the request of the more zealous Protestants, who would. not agree that Roman Catholic instruction should . be given in an establishment for the maintenance of I which public money has been granted. But, gene- ; rally speaking, the rules which are contained in the last report of the Commissioners are that the peculiar re ligious instruction may be given at a certain interval after the school hours, upon condition only that the Bible in the Protestant version shall not be read as a school-book during school hours.—(flear, hear.) If this j be so, then it is perfectly plain that to the first proposal ; of the Hon. Gentleman the modification that he asks is not a modification that the religious education of Pro testants may be better provided fur, but a modification ; which will be contrary to the wishes. and which will arouse the suspicions of the Roman Catholics by declar ing that the Bible shall be read in the schools, not only for the sake of the Protestant children, but for the sake of the Roman Catholic children who belong to those schools. I say that if you were to introduce such a , change as that, you would at once strike a fatal blow at the whole system. Those jealousies which have been al layed, and those suspicions which are now sleeping, would at once be again aroused. You would have 300,000 or 400,000 of those children taken away from the schools, and all your hopes of a united education for the people of Ireland would thus be blasted.—(Hear, hear.) But then it is said, "If you do not approve of any modification of your plan, let the national schools remain as they are, conducted according to the na tional system, but make a separate grant for the sake of the children belonging to the Established Church of Ireland. It is very plausible to say that that is what is done in England—that that is your system here—and ' why not therefore adopt it in Ireland? But I see no face in the objection that there is a difference of system in England and Ireland. What I wish to see effected is the greatest degree of good that is practicable; and if I find that, according to one system, the most good is practicable in England, and that, according to another system, the most good is practicable in Ireland, I will take the system that effects the most good. If you say that the members of the. Church of Ireland, who are as one-sixth or one-seventh of the population, and at the same time the possessors of the greatest proportion of the property of that country, shall have a separate grant, how will you deny to the Roman Catholic Bishops, who wish likewise for separation, a similar grant for Roman Catholic schools, as separate and as exclusive? —(Hear,. hear.) 'Considering the advantages which you have in Ireland—considering the means which the Church of Ireland now possesses—considering that Archbishop Mllale and others are as strongly for separate education as any of the bishops and clergy of the Establishe4 Church of Ireland— how could you deny to them their separate schools, conducted ac cording to Roman Catholic maxims, and exclusively and rigidly worked by the Roman Catholic clergy ?—(1-lear.) Of the advance of 120,000/. for educational purposes, you would perhaps have to give 20,000/. to the Estab lished Church, whilst 100,000/. would bo given exclu sively to Roman Catholic schools. And who can tell me what will be the course of education in these Roman Catholic schools, when they are entirely set loose from this system of mixed education, which has taught them to know and to love their Protestant brethren, and to act upon the precepts of the Christian religion? Do not think that the effects will be the same in Ireland that you see in England, where the grant is apportioned to the Church of England, to the British and Foreign School Society, to the Wesleyans, and the Roman Ca tholics. In Ireland you have it totally different. In that country, where there has been so much of separation and animosity, you would see that animosity revive, and fostered by restoring the separate system ; and yet it would be impossible to stop. If you say that you will have a separate .grant for the Established Church, it will be impossible for you to stop there and say that to it, and to it alone shall this 'separate 'grant be made—that to no other religious persuasion in Ireland will you give the same advantage. You would thus be I introducing an injustice, you would thus be raising an I exclusion with respect to a new system which we have so much t ) deplore with respect to the system that has long been established.—(Hear.) The advantages that I look for from this grant is, that, being a matter of very recent introduction, founded upon grants by Parliament to which no one has a claim, except on the grounds of general justice and policy, you have it entirely in your own hands to distribute that sum in the way that will produce the greatest influence on the future progress of Ireland. You have it in your'power to say that you will make it the means of reconciling persona of different re ' ligions, of saying that your rule in Ireland is just, and that ' it is not because one person is called a Protestant, another a Presbyterian, and another a Roman Catholic, that you Bill depart from your rule of doing equal justice. That rule has been lately established. It is working well, and it a ill be your own fault if it be departed from. I hope, therefore, on all these considerations, that the House will not agree to make any change in the grant as it has hitherto been distributed—l hope they will sup port the Commission of Education, comprising, as it . does, men of great eminence, though of different reli gions, like Archbishop Whately and Archbishop Murray. —(Hear, hear.) Oae of the complaint; made is that the clergy of the Church of Ireland receive no support, coun tenance, or favour from the State, unless they are friends of the national system of education; but I beg to observe that the clergy who are declared to be hostile to this plan of education, are not excluded from the most valu able benefices or preferments of the greatest value in Ireland, in consequence of their opposition. If it were true that the State had the monopoly of all the benefices that might be the case. But the fact is that generally speaking the bishops have the far greater portion of the patronage of the Church. I find that in Armagh the Crown has four livings and the primate 49, that in the diocese of Ferns the Crown has 1 living and the bishop 44, and that in Cashel the Crown has 3 livings and the bishop 34.—(Hear.) I do not think, therefore, that the worldly prospects of these gentlemen are blighted in the manner which has been represented. Where the Crown does not favour them, the bishop, generally speaking, prefers them; and I do not find fault with him for that: But if I do not find fault with him, neither is the Crown to he condemned nor censured, if—in the dis posal of such patronage as may fall to the Crown, when the dispenser of that patronage meets a man of piety, learning, and character, who is favourable to the system of national education—they prefer him to one who is its decided opponent.—(Hear, hear.) I think, therefore, that upon every ground there is no reason for the claim that has been preferred. I regret deeply to ob serve that the clergy of the Church of Ireland still entertain such strong repugnance to the national system of education in that country. I think that the clergy of the Church of Ireland, in consideration of their merits in every respect, but especially for the charitable exertions they made during the late painful years of famine and distress, are deserving of every re spect on the part of this House. lam concerned, there fore, that upon this subject I should be compelled to differ from them; and were it not that I think their wishes are opposed to the general welfare of the people of Ireland, and that we should be committing a serious inroad upon our system 'of education, I should he glad to comply with the desire they have. expressed. But seeing that such serious consequences must result—seeing that many schemes and plans for Ireland have often failed in ourhands—seeing thatahis is a plan,as established by Lord Stanley in 1832, which has had good success—which has prospered, and which promises to strengthen religion— to promote good conduct and obedince to the laws amongst the people of Ireland—l earnestly call upon the House to give it their support, and not to consent to abridge its efficiency. Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON would not address the House on the present occasion were it not that he had a public duty to perform to those who had chosen him as their representative. He was anxious to correct a mistake into which the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Fagan) had fallen, in stating that the bishops of the Established Church were opposed to the national system of education in Ireland. So far from that being the case, seven out of the twelve were in favour of it. With re spect to the Noble Lord who bad been referred to as fa vourable to this system—Lord Stanley —no one could for a moment doubt that the Noble Lord had regarded it as a great social experiment, and that he had given to it all the attention of his mind, with a hope and view of carrying out the system successfully.—(Hear, hear.) But there were great mistakes committed in the statis tics on this subject in relation to the children in various parts of Ireland of the different denominations of Chris tians. No doubt it was desirable, if practicable, to have the children of the several religious denominations meet together within the walls of one school-room; but the system at thad not b the e en tried, bestsystem and he didba that could o t hesitate ld bea do t to adopted, that , i s o n v d it t e h i a t t b i o t s w e a w s b f o ar b fr o o a m ste b d ein s g o much of perfect the y a s e t o e u m r ay o . accuracy the statistics of the national education system, as in ope ration in Ireland, to try and prove that accuracy, and tions were fallacious. he thought be would be able to show that their calcula- Sir J. GRAHAM said he was a member of the Go vernment along with Lord Stanley and the Noble Lord opposite who had proposed the national system; and, therefor-, a lth oug h h e cou ld not h ope t o a dd anything to what had been said by the Noble Lord and other speakers,. ho felt bound to address the House, for the purpose of declaring his continued adhesion to that system. He most cordially agreed with the Noble Lord the Member for Tyrone that religious instruction was the best pos sible cure for the largest part of the social and moral evils of Ireland; but it seemad to him that the Noble Lord, in insisting upon that, put altogether apart Roman Catholi , _! religious instruction, as a thing not to be re garded in treating the question. He (Sir J. Gra ham) altogether and entirely dissented from that doc trine.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord in analysing the proportion of Roman Catholic children at these schools in Ulster talked of the small proportion of Protestants to be found in them, but did th e N o bl e Lord mean to set aside the Presbyterians?—(Hear)—and was not the national system adopted by them in that part of the SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 22, 1850, country as completely as it was accepted by the Roman Catholics in the other parts of Ireland ? (Hear, heir.) Ho (Sir James Graham) regretted—deeply regretted—that the members of the Church of Eng land had not derived all the advantages from the schools under this system of which it bad been. proved they were susceptible of imparting; but why was this the case, and what caused it? It was simply because the clergymen of the Church of England in Ire land, he was sorry to say, had led the way in a spirit of uncompromising hostility against the national system. — (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had read the statements of a clergyman who attended the school in his own parish, and he had told the House that the result was, that though the Protestant and Catholic children were instructed in the history of their religion, it could not he described as religious instruction.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member who had brought forward the motion had described the national system of education in Ire land as latitudinarian, and he (Sir J. Graham) admitted that a greater objection could not be made to it, sup posing the objection to be well founded. But if he was not mistaken, there existed most irrefragable proofs t the contrary. An annual examination of the children of all the parochial schools of Dublin took place in the June of every year, and the Society for the Suppression of Vice and the Promotion of Religious Education in Marlborough-street gave premiums to thou, best versed in the Sacred Scriptures on that occasion t those children educated in the tenets of the Established Church. Those examinations were made by Protestant clergymen. Now, what was the fact? In June, 1849, the number of children from all the Protestant schools of Dub in, sent up for this examination, was 297; the num ber of those who received premiums was 99, and of this number. 9 out of 24 children sent up from the National Model School of Dublin were among the recipients of premiums. With facts like this before the House, was it possible to say that Protestant children, though brough under t up h with e n a a o tron system, an al Catholi ig cs m in ht not obtain schools, the best education in the tenets and history of their own religion. He held it tab° indisputahly_proved that they could; and he therefore only regretted that Protestant clergymen of the Established Church should persevere in their opposition to that system on grounds so thoroughly untenable. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had been taunted with applying all the patronage of the Church in the hands of Government in Ireland to the furtherance of the national system of education in that country. It was not for him (Sir J. t toderi d the Noble Lord—he was well able G to ri ck i s a t m ha ) himself; but the Government of which he (Sir J. Graham) was a member had taken quite an op posite course, distributing the Church patronage in Ire land indifferently among those clergymen whom they deemed best fitted for ecclesiastical preferment. But how had the prelates so preferred acted in respect to the national system—how had they ' exercised the patronage with . with which they were in trusted in ref erence to t h at system? If he bad been rightly informed, they had uniformly used their utmost exertions in the support and maintenance and promotion of those clergymen most opposed to the doc trines of that system.—(Hear, hear.) • Something had been said with regard to the conscientious scruples of the members of the Church of England in the matter by the Hon. Member for Dublin; but he (Sir J. Graham) would ask was the system of education pursued in Trinity College of .an exclusively Protestant character? —(Hear, hear) He admitted, in the distribution of honours, emoluments, and rewards, that college was most exclusive—(Hear, hear) —but as regarded education, he denied altogether that it was exclusive. On the contrary, he believed that, with the exception of an examination upon entrance in the Greek Testament, not on points of doctrine, but in scanning verses, until a degree was taken there was no conpu l sory interference with reading, as regarded the Scriptures or in respect to a religious edu cation.—([fear, hear.) There was another fact: in all the workhouses of Ireland there were schools in con nexion with the national system of education. All these workhouses, however, had Protestant chaplaini. If those religious scruples alluded to by the Honourable Member were binding upon the universal body of the clergy of the Established Church in Ireland, it would of course be impossible to find chaplains for the work houses.—(Hear, hear.) These chaplains, nevertheless, attended the schools in the several workhouses, and aided in carrying out the systern.—(Hear, hear.) It was true there was one little circumstance to be taken into account in these cases upon which, however, he did not desire to lay too great a stress—there was a salary at ' tached to each chaplainship.—(Hear, hear,-and laughter.) It might be said that the building was desecrated by the performance of the Roman Catholic service within its walls; but that was found to be no objection to the chap lain.—(Hear and laughter.) Again, there were the gaols in Ireland, to .which there were chapels attached for the celebration of Divine service. Was the Protestant ser vice, according to the ritual of the Established Church, exclusively celebrated in these chapels? By no meaus —(Hear)—mass, according to the forms of the Roman Catholic worship, was celebrated there also. Still there was no scruple on the part of the Protestant cler gymen to accept the office of gaol chaplains.—(Hear and laughter.) There was also a salary attached in this case.—(Hear and laughter.) With reference to. the question of scruples, it was therefore impossible to overlook these facts.—(Hear, hear.) In the shape in which the question was brought before the House, it was put in an alternative form, either the system should be modified, or an exclusive grant should be made to the Established Chur c h. A mo difi ca ti on of the system, however, meant an enforced reading of the Scriptures in these schools from the authorised version. —(Hear, hear.) It meant that or it meant nothing, and he believed the Hon. Member. for Dublin would bear him out that this was what was intended by a modification. But 'f that was adopted the Government might as well declare at once that the national system of education in Ireland was extinguished ; for once that modification was insisted on—from that moment the schools would be completely deserted by the Roman Catholic children of the country.—(Hear, hear.) If they gave to one par ticular religion a separate branch from the Roman Catholic, that would make the system different from the national system in Ireland. He would ask them, there fore, to consider well what they were doing. The Hon. Gentleman had appealed first to the justice and then to the policy of what he proposed. But if they were to make that change they ought to make it on a principle of justice; and shot would deniand that, if they made any exclusive grant for education according to the princi ples of the Established Church, to the amount of 10,000/. or 12,0001., they would be obliged to make a grant to au extent.of about 80,0001. for the Roman Catholics, They had begun, by .a penal code, to. expel what was called a fallacious doctrine, and that attempt was .a harsh and cruel one.—(Hear, hear.) The • present attempt bad been made as a substitute for that system, and it had been inteuded to give by it a united education to b o th Protestants and Roman Catholics. By that they sought to establish in a more Christian manner that which had means. If 480,000 benefit other benefit of the national syst e m previously persons r b e e been derivingat attempted p t t h e e d of education in Ireland, while 400,000 of those might be Roman Catholics, there were 80,000 who were members of the. Established Church.-:(Hear, hear.) He could not help believing that altheugh that system might not have borne all the fruits that might have been at first promised from it, yet its success had been signal—(Hear, hear.) And he believed there was no Roman Catholic country in Europe (for Ireland it could not be denied was a Roman Catholic country)—(Hear, hear)--where, by the consent of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, any edu cation so Scriptural as that under the national system in Ireland was tolerated.—(flear, hear.) lie would ask them, then, were they to disturb that system? He had heard with inexpressible setisfection his young friend near him (Mr Stanley) defend that system which his noble father had supported. Ile might say of his young friend:— " Ascaniuna surgentem et apes haeredis Jun Respite." (Hear, hear.) He entreated. Hon. Gentlemen at that (the Opposition) side of the House to pause before they displaced that great monument of the success of Lord Stanley's statesmanship and wisdom.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Graham) had watched the national system of education in Ireland with much anxiety. Amid the darkness which hung over, that country, it was the only bright spot. He entreated them not to overshadow that light, not to extinguish that Promethean heat, which it might be impossible to resuscitate.—(Hear.) They had thought and talked of similarity of institutions. That was a dangerous topic--(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side)—to touch upon. There could not be an equality of institutions while the Established Church of Ireland was not that of the majority of the people of that country.—(Hoar, hear.). The only grant which they had ever offered the Roman Catholics of that country in the nature of an endowment, was that which they had given for the sustainment of the system of na'tional edu• cation. If they made it an exclusive grant, however, in terms, he believed there were many of the Roman Ca tholic prelates and priesthood, who would rejoice at the success of the motion of the Member for the University of Dublin. In conclusion he would warn them against overthrowing that system about which he acknowledged he felt so much anxiety, and he would give an unhesitat ing vote against the motion of the Hon. Gentleman.— Memb er help expressing deep(Cheers from th e Mi n i ster i a l s id e .) Mr. NA.PIER supporte d t h e re solution of his H on . could Fie nd n o t h t e University of Dublin, an d the taunt thrown out by the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Rip on , that the. Protestant clergy were actuated by mean and mercenary motives.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He wanted to know what answer he was to give to the Protestants of Ireland when they said the Roman Catholics of England get a share•of the Government grant for education, and they asked why the Established Church in Ireland should not be equally favoured? It was not complained in the case of the Roman Catholics that their schools were proselytising; why should the same principle not be applied to the Protestants in Ireland, who had to pay their proportion of that grant ?—(dear, hear.) Was conscience to be respected in England and not in Ireland ? Were those who did not insist on scriptural education to receive Government assistance in England, while those who had always—who now did—firmly uphold scriptural education, were refused it simply because they lived in Ireland? He asked if that was justice ? (hear, hear.) The Noble Lord who had made a most Christian speech in opposition to the Secular Edu cation Bill of the Hon. Member for Oldham, the other day had abandoned that principle on the present occa sion, and insisted that in Ireland they should merely take cognizince of secular education. If either Protes tants or Roman Catholics came over to this country, they would be entitled to share in the public grants. All, in fact, were so entitled, except those who denied religion altogether, and thus they came to the conclu sion, that in Ireland the members of the Protestant Es tablished Church were exposed to the same exclusion and the same stigma as those who denied all religion.— (Hear.) But he put it to the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, who so ably represented his father, if if was the hi - tent - ion of-his noble relation'tO exalude the Protestants of Ireland from all participation in these grants? He belived that Noble Lord was most desirous to es!ahliah a system of united education, but the result was, according to the report of the Commissioners on the subject, when it was tried, that scrip tural combined education was impracticable, and that secular must be kept apart from scriptural instruc tion. The consequence was, that instead of schools being open to all, as was intended by the Noble Lord, the conditions laid down excluded a large number of Protestant children from these schools.—(Hear, hear.) The practical arrangements were of such a character as to exclude all religious education from the common in struction given in the schools. When religious instruction was to be given, a large board was exhibited stating the fact, and the Roman Catholic children left them. In se cular instruction they had unity, but when the name of God was mentioned, when prayer or praise was to be offered up to the Creator, then came separation and iso lation.—(Hear, hear.) That was what was called deno minational education. The Right lion. Baronet the Member for Ripen said he did not understand that term, but he found in a former speech of the Right Hon. Ba ronet that he advocated education under the superin tendence of the Church exclusively.—(Hear, hear.) Those were the opinions of the Right Hon. Baronet when ho was a younger man, and he believed they were opi nions in which honourable men would more readily coin cide than they would with his present views. —(Bear.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had given similar opinions, and he thought he could not ad duce better authority. If the word of God was fixed and certain, he would ask if it was to be changed with the changing whims and inroads of politicians and states men? A question had been raised, whether it was pos sible to get clergymen ale ays to superintend these schools; but that was not the point at issue. The ques tion was, whether they should not have the parochial schools in Ireland under the same superintendence, and conducted on the same principle as these schools were in England? Why should we have one rule for the Church of Ireland, and another for the Church of England, when according to law they were a united Church?—(Hear, hear.) It appeared that there were not 100 clergymen in Ireland who had joined these schools, but it was not therefore to be inferred that the Bishops imposed any test on the clergy. The Noble Lord had referred to the report of the Commission of 1830, bUt the system was very different as proposed by the Prelates at that time. They proposed to have parochial schools under the superintendence of the clergy, but they proposed also to have supplementary schools, in which lessons con sisting of extracts from the authorised version of the Holy Scriptures were to be read daily.—(Divide, and cheers.) The real question was not whether the na tional system was right or wrong; but conceding that it was right, for argument sake, they had come to the de cision that all denominations of Christians should have the power of teaching the Scriptures according to their own conscience. —(Hear, hear.) -Well, then he would ask was education an imperial or a local question? If it was an imperial question, why should the Churchmen of Ireland alone be excluded from its' benefits? The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon had elo quently expressed his hopes of a better future for Ire land, from the continuance and spread of education; but he would say, that the only way to make that education really useful, and to put down political turbulence and discontent, was to place the Protestant Churchman upon the same footing as the other denominations in Ireland. Mr. SHEIL said he begged to assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down, and he hoped he might venture to call him his Hon. and Learned Friend, that he (Mr. Shell) should not coasider any system of education as deierving the name of" nationat" to which the Irish Protestants could take just objection. —(Hear, hear.) Ho entertained for his Protestant fel low-countrymen a stronger feeling than mere patriotism. When he considered the wisdom, the genius, the elo quence, the virtue and the talent; when he recollected how many great statesmen, profound writers, and he would add gallant soldiers they numbered, he could not withhold the expression of his admiration, and he would say his gratitude, when he remembered, what be never could forget, namely, that within the last century there was not a sigle one of those great and eminent men that did not take a part in elevating the condition of their Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen.--(Loud cheers.) Influenced by those feelings, he would deprecate as much as any man present the perpetration of a wrong to the religious feelings of his Protestant fellow-countrymen.— (Hear.) But at the same time he thought that where a grant of money was asked, where the scruples of Hon. Gentlemen took an acquisitive turn—(Laughter)— where the Chancellor of the Exchequer was called upon to administer spiritual consolation to Hon. and Learned Gentlemen—(Laughter)—it was but reasonable that the House should inquire whether the objections were well founded, and whether the fears are not • visionary by which the Parliamentary consciences of Hon. Gentlemen are perturbed.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Sheil) could not agree in the position that the Protestants of Ireland were opposed to the National BOard.—(Hear, hear.) The great mass of the gentlemen of Ireland were in favour of it, because they knew and appreciated the benefit they derived from having the people educated. — (Hear, hear.) They knew that the national school planted in every parish was a means of refreshing and fertilising the minds which otherwise would remain ste rile and unproductive.—(Hear.) With respect to the Presbyterians, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ad mitted they were favourable to the Board. But why was the Honourable and Learned Gentleman so indignant at the mention of the word "salary" by the Honourable Member for Ripon?—(Hear, hear.) Was it that the clergy of the Established Church were not to be influ enced by temporal inducement, though the Mosaic system held out such as the reward of ecclesiastical virtue?— (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) But in the same breath the Honourable and Learned Gentleman told them that when the Presbyterians joined the Board the Regium Donum was increased.—(" Hear," and laughter.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had quoted the authority of Swift; but as for religion the fellow had none at all, though in all other respects he was an excellent Presby terian.—(Laughter and cheers.) It was true the majo rity of the clergy were opposed to the National Board, but there was a preponderance of mitres, and they should not be overlooked. Seven bishops were too im portant be disregarded.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Archbishop of Dublin (Dr. Whately), who, as a scholar, was worth a host of sacerdotal mediocrities in point of talent, the profoundest of the mitred theologians— (Hear, hear)—was not opposed to the National Board.— (Hear. hear.) Allusion bad been made to Lord Stanley, and the tone adopted by him in reference to this matter, when Secretary for Ireland; and he (Mr. Shell) should say that of his progeny, speaking in a figurative sense, the Noble Lord had cause to be proud. Lord Stanley was Secretary for Ireland in 1832, and a member of the Cabinet. That Noble Lord was anxious that religious instruction should ba associated with secular education; that the tree of knowledge should be grafted on the tree of life.—(Hear.) Lord Stanley addressed a letter in 1832 to the Duke of Leinster. He (Mr. Shied) had the letter there, and he apprehended a few sentences of it quoted would set the entire matter at rest. He would, therefore, read a few for the purpose of disabusing the public mind of the wrong impressions made on it. Hon. Gentlemen who might conceive the system of national education to he incompatible with religion would do well to study the letter. Here was an extract—" They (the Commissioners) will require that the schools be kept open a certain number of hours for four or five days in each week, at the discretion of the Commissioners, and that the remaining one or two days be set apart for giv ing separate religious instruction as may be approved of by the clergy of the respective persuasions; and that the respective clergy be permitted to give religious instruc tion after school hours on the other days of the week." —(Hear, hear.) That was plain language; religious in struction to be communicated on one or two distinct days in each week, and for a certain time after school hours on each of the other days.—(Hear, hoar.) Now, with that simple statement he destroyed the whole web of sophistry which the antagonists of the National Board system bad se ingeniously woven. Here was autho rity to teach the children, not alone the great moral truths of Christianity, but also the dogmas on which both churches dissented; and after that would any Hon. Gentleman assert that the schools under the National Board were closed against the interference of the Protestant clergymen?e-(llear, hear.) He (Mr. Sheil) was not going to impute factious motives to that body. He thought that amongst the Protestant clergy of Ireland the majority were men conspicuous for virtue. But in saying that he could not refrain from saying what he conceived to be the real cause of the Protestant clergy having abandoned the national schools. It was this—a Protestant and Catholic clergy were now upon an equality.—(Cheers.) The Protestant clergy could not stomach that equality, becauce they considered it incompatible with the ascendancy which the law had given them.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said again and again, and with such emphasis of reiteration as to lead to the belief that he attached great importance to the assertion, that the Roman Catholics of this country had received over-pa tronage and encouragement; but he (Mr. Sheil) would say, restore to the Roman Catholics the splendid endow ments bequeathed by their ancestors to the Church, and the cases would be parallel.—(Hear, hear.) But was it because Lazarus in his poverty re ceived relief, that Dives in' the profusion of his wealth should stretch forth a supplicating hand?—(Loud cheers.) Providence had given to the favoured Esta blishment abundant means for extending the benefits of education, and why did they not avail themselves of them ?—(Hear, hear.) Why not apply for liberty to ap propriate a portion of the Church revenues to the main tenance of schools in connexion with the Church? — (Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) He (Mr. Shell) recol lected seventeen or eighteen years ago it was proposed that part of the property of Durham Cathedral should be applied for the purpose of establishing a, university in connexion with the church. He held the charter in his hands, and here were the words. After reciting that the dean and chapter of Durham were desirous of establish ing, in connexion with the cathedral church, a university for the advancement of learning, to be under the govern ment of the said dean and chapter for the time being, and also under the jurisdiction of the lord bishop of the dio cese as visitor, it recited that the said dean and chapter were desirious that those revenues should be appropriated —appropriated—(Laughter)—and set apart for the pur poses of the university. He thought the Hon. Gentleman would see that the cases were in quatuor pedants. Why did not Hon. Members opposite come to the House for an Act of Parliament, and say, " Give us so much of the property of the Church as is necessary for the support of schools in connexion with the Establishment?"—(Hear, hear.) If they should do so the House would hear them with great interest, and certainly with some surprise. —(Laughter.) He hoped they would forgive him if he ventured to say that a scriptural image was presented to his mind when an Irish Churchman, full but unsatiated, cried out, " Give, give."—(Hear, hear.) Being of opinion that the subject had been thoroughly exhausted, he should con tent himself, in concluAon, with stating the facts that Lord Stanley founded the National Board—(Hear, hear) —that the , (tight 110..gemberfor Tamworth, with Lord Stanley as his colleague, largely added to the funds of the National Board—(Hear, hear)—that Parliament had again and again approved of the National Board; that 'every distinguished statesman in the country — of course excepting lion. Gentlemen opposite, from whom unhappily he differed (Laughter) had concurred in approving of the national system. — (Hear, hear.) And he might add, that these authori ties were crowned with a very high and remark able approval. Amongst the most remarkable incidents that occurred when the Queen was in Ireland was her visit to the National Board—(Hear)—which took place (by accident of course) before she visited the College of the holy and undivided Trinity.—(Laughter.) It was a fine spectacle to see the Queen, with the con sort so worthy of her, attended by the representatives of the Presbyterian Church, by the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, and by the Protestant Archbishop of Dublin —with those venerable ecclesiastics at her side, differiog in creed, but united by the common brotherhood of Christianity—(Cheers) —in the performance of ono of the noblest duties which their common Christianity pre scribed; it was a fine thing to sea the Sovereign of a great empire surrounded by groups of those little children who gazed on her with affectionate amazement, while she returned their looks with a fondness almost maternal; and, better than all, it was noble and thrilling, indeed, to see the emotions by which that great lady was moved when her heart beat with a high and holy aspiration that she might live to see the benefits of education carried out in their fall and perfect develop• ment.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. PLUMPTRE said the Right Hon. Gentleman had represented the Protestant clergy of Ireland as re fusing to take part in the national system of education, because, having been in the habit of maintaining an as cendancy, they did not like to abandon it. He felt it his duty to declare on their behalf that they were ac tuated by far higher and holier motives; and as, on the one hand, they were placed far beyond any praise which he (Mr. Plumptre) could give them, so, on the other hand, no blame which the Right Honourable Gentleman might be inclined to cast upon them would affect their character. Mr. REYNOLDS rose amidst loud cries of "Divide" and much interruptions He said this question was partly a Church question, partly a money question, and partly a party question.—(Laughter, and renewed in terruption.) An analysis of the political opinions of those who were opposed to the system would show that they were the opponents of every movement made in that House to promote rational liberty. He deeply re gretted that the Hon. Member for the University of Dublin had permitted himself to'bo made the instrument of introducting a topic which was likely to increase reli gious discord, and thus keep alive that spirit which bad inflicted so much injury on Ireland. It must be ad mitted that those by whom this motion was introduced might take out a patent for ingenuity in the invention of grievances. As a Roman Catholic Member he com plained of that discussion.—(Cries of "Question.") The agitation of the question was an annual farce. Once a year, about Easter, there was a gathering in the Rotunda at Dublin. What was that Rotunda? A pocket edition of Westminster Hall. Who attended in its galleries? Eight or nine intolerant and bigoted bishops, a certain number of expectant curates, a larger number of excited laymen, and a considerable gathering of hysterical old maids—(Laughter) —the Members for the University of Dublin attending ex officio. This might be exceedingly unpalateable to " ears polite," but he had the misfortune to represent a great city—(Laughter)—Hon. Gentlemen should have allowed him to finish the sentence—a city in the centre of which was the great citadel of Orange ascendancy, Trinity College, and in one corner the Rotunda, in which such unseemly scenes were enacted. He was there to impeach what, without meaning to offend any one, he must call an annual humbug. [Mr. Stanford here rose as if to speak, but immediately resumed his seat.] He begged most respectfully to state that in using the word " humbug," he had net thought of the Hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Stanford).—(Great laughter.) Even if he thought the Hon. Member deserved that name, being aware that he was leading a life of single blessedness he would not like to injure his character with the ladies of Reading.—(Roars of laughter.) He hoped that expla nation would be satisfactory to the Hon. Gentleman. If a Russian or a Frenchman, quite unacquainted with the subject had heard the speeches in favour of the motion, ha would have fancied that the Protestants of ,Ireland were the most miserably-used people on the face of the earth. Now, what were the facts? Including Metho dists and Quakers, the Protestants of Ireland amounted to 850,000 of the population; the revenues of the Church amounted, some said, to 1,000,000/.• ' others said to 700,0001., and the Hon. Member fJr the Univer sity of Dublin would admit that they were not less than 600,000/. The Honourable Gentleman nodded dissent, but he (Mr. Reynolds) believed the estimate to be a low one; and that amount was quite irrespective of what was given to the diocesan and endowed schools, and of the 100,000/. a year placed at the disposal of the Eccle siastical Commissioners for the building and repairing of churches. They complained that the people were not handed over neck-and-heels to that proselytising assn. elation. It was said there were 43,000 Roman Catholic children within the walls of the Kildare-street schools. Why, these children had every one of them been kid napped by the influence of soup and oatmeal.—(Laugh ter.) Human food was withheld unless spiritual food was accepted. (Cheers, and " Ob, oh.") The Hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Heald) was as ignorant of Tipperary Protestantism as he was of the feelings of his own constituents when he said that nine-tenths of them were opposed to the ballot.—(Hear, hear.) If he were ignorant of the state of political feeling in Stockport, how grossly ignorant must he be of the state of Tippe rary erote,tantism I lie would assure the House that Tipperary was not such a wilderness as the Hon. Mere her supposed; it was a large and civilized community. Ho begged to say, in conclusion, that he conscientiously believed this annual motion was brought on for the pur pose of guarding the outposts of that overgrown levia than, the Protestant Church in Ireland. He believed in his conscience that, until the temporalities of that Church were entirely abolished, they never would have peace or order in Ireland; and, speaking as an Irishman, he be lieved, not only that they never would have peace, but that they never ought to have peace in Ireland.—Gear, hear.) Other men might mince the matter; they were not so candid as he was; but the great mass of the popu lation of Ireland considered the temporalities of that Church as an intolerable badge of slavery and oppres sion; and, until the whole edifice was, by the operation of law, levelled with the - crust, he never should consider himself an emancipated Irishman. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the resolution ... 142 Against it ... ... ... ... 225 Majority ... ... ... -83 SUPPLY. The House then went into Committee of Supply. Mr. COBDEN objected to their proceeding in: Com mittee at that hour, as it was impossible that they could discuss the details of the votes. The CHANCELLOR . of the EXCHEQUER said that it was absolutely essential that he should get some money on account, to defray the expenses which had been incurred in some of the minor departments. Colonel SIBTHORP deprecated the notion of Chan cellors of the Exchequer always asking for money on account. They should always know the whole RUMS that were required. After a further objection on the part of Mr. COBDEN to proceeding with Supply at that late hour. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he would be satisfied to take half the money con tained in the items. The following sums were then ,voted on account up to the. Ist of March, 1851:-- 9,0001. fur the dt.fraying of law expenses incurred in Government prosecutions. 5,0001. to defray the expenses of prosecuting offenders against the laws of coinage. 10,0001. for the expenses of sheriffs and the fees of their officers' salaries. 5,0001. to defray the salaries and expenres of the Com missioners of the Insolvent Debtors' Courts. 40,0001. for law expenses in Scotland. 30,000/. for law expenses in Ireland. 20,0001. for the expenses of the metropolitan force in 7,0001. for the charges of inspectors of prisons. 70,0001. for the expense of maintaining the county gaols and lunatic asylums. 100,0001. for the expenses of maintaining •bonding establishments. 50,0001.. for the transportation of convicts. 100,000/. for the maintenance of convict establish ments in the colonies. The House then resumed. POPULATION BILL. This Bill passed through Cumraittee. LINEN AND MANUFACTURES (IRELAND) BILL. This Bill was committed, and the Chairman reported progress and obtained leave to sit again. RAILWAY AUDIT BILL. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that this was a Bill from the Lords, of which he had charge. There were parts of this Bill which were manifestly at variance with the privileges of the House, and therefore he moved that this Bill be, laid aside, and he should ask for leave to in troduce another on the same subject. LANDLORD AND TENANT BILL. On the motion for the resumption of the adjourned debate on the third reading, Mr. CHRISTOPHER moved the adjournment of the debate. The House divided, when there appeared— For the amendment 34 Against it ..• ... 86 Majority__ ... ... —52 Mr. CHRISTOPHER then moved the adjournment of the House. After a few words from Mr. PUSEY, Sir J. Y. BULLER suggested that the Bill should be fixed fora morning sitting. Mr. PUSEY was willing to fix Thursday next, at twelve o'clock.—(No, no.) Lord GALWAY said that as Irish Members did not wish to have the Bill for Ireland, and many English Members were equally hostile, he would recommend the Hon. Member to confine it to Berkshire.—(Laughter.) After a desultory conversation, the third reading was fixed for twelve o'clock on Thursday next. • NEW BRIDGE AT WESTMINSTER. On the motion of Mr. FREWEN, let;;;;;a7giyen to bring in a Bill authorising the erection of a temporary bridge at Westminster. The House adjourned at Twenty minutes past One. THE LATE EIRE AND LOSS OF LIFE. — On Wednesday, at eleven o'clock; Mr. Wakley, jun., and a nume rous jury, assembled at the King's Head Tavern, Castle street, Long• acre, for the purpose of inquiring into the cir cumstances connected with the deaths of Mrs. Charlotte Harding, aged 54, and Miss Margaret Nolan, aged 14, the two persons who lost their lives at the fire which occurredin Phoenix-street, St. Giles's, on Monday la st, particulars of which appeared in this journal of the same day. No new facts were elicited in evidence, and the jury returned a ver dict, 'Mutt the deceased Nolan was burnt in the fire, and the decealedirardinii killed - by ilie - 11211, and the jury have no evi dence a 4 to the cause of the fire." - THE COUNTRY MARKETS. WAKEFIELD, JUNE 21.—The snpplies are g ood. V" I " d e . a quiet ma r k e t, and the business passing in all articl es hunt' , Wheat is held firmly at last week's prices. Oats, shelling, anti beans are sold on easier terms. Old New. WHEAT, per qr. 601bs per bushel:— s. s• 1g .... to Suflolk•Essex, and Kent, red ... 41 to 4 4 Ditto, white ... 44 48 Norfolk and Hunts., red ... 40 42 Ditto, white ... „. „, 44 46 Lincolnshire and Cambridge, red ... 59 41 Ditto, white ... `„ ,40— 46 "" Yorkshire, red ,„, ,„ 39 —4l Ditto, white ... „, 49 46 Dantzic and Konigsburg, white 41 46 ' --- Lowerßaltic and Hamburgh, red... 37 41 Mediterranean, red ... „,. BARLEY, per quarter of 8 bushels:— Norfolk and Suflblk... Lincolnshire and Yorkshire . •• Scotch ••• ••• ••• ••• Grinding per 30 stone ... 18 19 Foreign ... ••• ••• ... 22 24 BEANS, per quarter of 8 bushels 631 b : Small, fine ... ••• ... 26 —'29 Ticks ••• ••• ... 26 28 F0reign............25 27 OATS, per stone : 01 Mealing • ••• ••• 91 to 10d 0 1 . Feeding ... 8d to 9id Od to 0 0 1 Foreign ... 81 to 91 01 t o SHELLING, per load of 2611 b ... 22 —23 MALT, per load of 6 imperial bushels 34 36 PEAS, per Imperial Quarter:— Blue and white boilers Grey and Feed _ _-- .... .a. ••••• .••• .... MOO ..... •••• ••• ••••• No. or. ow. 0... _ •••• a... ... 24 - 26 ... 23 - 25 VALS. ARR Qrs. Wheat ... 11,136 Rapeseed N. 438 Barley ... 1,242 Shelling ... ••• "! Oats ... ... 1,169 Linseed .. ..• '• -- Beans... 402 Malt ... • • *" Peas ... Flour ••• Tares EXETER, JUNE 21 -Cattle—There fair suPPli-,1 a . - beasts, but not so large as that of last week. Fruit . 0 , Vegetables—Green peas 8d to Is 6d per peck ; gooseberri b, 2d per quart; strawberries, 5d to 6d per quart; Ib ub led Id to lid per lb; new potatoes. lid per lb; old ditto, per score. We noticed some very fine cucumbers, esPe c , ll 6s on the stall of Mr. Bustard. Pannier—Goslings bs "6d -do; •each; ducks 3s 6d to ss. per couple; chicken 2 s 6d to as tor fowls 3s 6d to 4s 6d do; leverets 2s 6d to 3s 6d each;„, l3 , ll 8d to 8/d per Ib; eggs 20 for Is. Corn Exchange- - " e o - d tendance to-day has been small. The market is firt°' les prices rather higher than this day week. For the best ssOP„ r , of warranted English wheat, 5s 6d per bushel has bee k. o rently given, and it is considered that that price will b e r ceeded before the market closes. French read wheat' 10 T 4 e t ing at 38s to 39s per quarter; and white Belgian at 'T, s t o .. 43s (601bs to the bushel). In malting barley nothing„t",,e ever is doing; oats, 2s to 2s 3d per bushel; fine flour, ot" sack. BRISTOL, JUNE 20.—With only moderate supplies of A li tor lish wheat we experience a steady consu m pti v e denti n : t oil both it and sweet foreign, at fully last week's prices. "'" n et day's market English new wheat fetched from 38s to 49. 1 4 0 , imperial quarter ; foreign, white, 42s to 44, p e r 4801 b, d o; red, extra fine qualities, 40s to 42, ; ditto fine ditto, 38s "' gm to ' ditto, ditto, ordinary ditto, 35s to 36s 6d; ditto, hardt 4 7, e9S 375. The sale of flour is languid, English se c onds 27 1 per sack ; American, &c., sweet, 23s to 24s per barrel, bi pOt ing barley continues steady ; in grinding barley thert,' A i much doing, but it attracts rather more attention. malting to-day fetched from 23s to 26s per imperial it 11 . 0," ditto and foreign grinding, 183 to I9s per 4001 b. va t " / a pd beans are dull, but values are unaltered. Oats, DW I/ Ir ish Welch, fetched from 155 to 16s per imperial quarter ;: o e white, 16s 6d to 1 Is per 3201 b ; ditto bl ac k, 15 s 6d to IT Ji 4 ,l imperial quarter. Beans, English, 245 to 27s 6d per ilor t i l e quarter ; foreign, 22s to 25s per 4801 b. The arrivals f° l l4 , week are—Wheat, 2,109 quarters; oats, 655 quarters; O r os 1,610 quarters ; beans, 380 quarters ; flour, 500 sacks. average for the week are—Wheat, 40s ; oats, 16s 7d ; 121 " 23s 11 d ; beans, 28s. . 44 of BRISTOL SUGAR MARRVT, J UNE 21.—The of w the past week has been very limited, in consequence -,_ o l small show at market; prices are steady with a s light tenav,;,. to improve. Refined goods are in fair d eman d at full lei „ v" Rums sell more freely at steady rates.—Bristol Afercuri 6dl SHEFFIELD, JUNE 18.—Wheat,white, 16s 6d to 1 ; 9 0 ,64 ditto, red, 14s 6d to 16s 6d ; beans, 10s 6d to 12s ; peas, o sts to 12s per load. Barley, 22s to 245; malt, 48s to 525; ~ter• (old), 16s to 18s; ditto ( new), Os to Os Od per qu .- Millers' prices of flour, is sd, and is 7d per stone of 14110• 4 ,93 RIPON, JUNE 20.—White wheat 5s 6d to 6 s Od, redidittq." oo; to 5s 6d ; beans, 4s Od to 4s 6d per bushel ; barley 5 20 ° 11 oats Od to 21s per qr. e 3d "•:•„. 0 (1 ; KNARESBOROUGH, JUNE 19.—Wheat as -.- to beans 3s 6d to 3s 9d per bushel ; barley 25s to 265; oats; ,! 21s per qr. ,rbite SCARBOROUGH, JUNE 20.—Red wheat 4s 9d to 516d' h ge ditto 53 Od to 5s 9d per 5 stones r black oats 6d to 7d, ! d og ditto 7d to 8d per stone ; malting barley 19s to 21s, _gr in gos, ditto 17s to 19s per qr. of 32 stones; superfi ne flour Ps t ° seconds ditto, 27s to COs per sack of 20 stones. , r ed WETHERBY, JUNE 20.—White wheat 16 s Od to 1756 u.„,., ; ditto 14s 6d to lbs 6d per load ; ba r l e y 23 s t o 261 • Ff . ' beans lOs Od to 12s Od per load ; oats 7d to Bid per stone BANGOR, JUNE 21.—We have had only a small, aitea l of at our market to-day. The trade was quiet in every grain. There was no alteration in the prices of ,t`!' week. DENBIGH, JUNE 19.—The market` to-day wbre, 01 / slack appearance. The business done was ver y maw ' Wit prices of corn and pulse very similar to our q uotations week. RuTHIN, JUNE 17.—The averages were • about, for ri fr b o l 14s to 14s 6d ; barley, very little inquired after, 7s ; ea" foga 6s, and in some instances where superior samples she w i n ditto 3d to 6d per hobbet more ; fresh butter, Bid to 9d ; fa' t 6d to lid per pound. 01 4 MoLn, JUNE 19.—Wheat, 14s 6d t barb 7s u"' -45 _ley, potatoes, lid; for new ditto lid per pound. RHYL, JUNE 18.—Wheat 13s to 14 per hohbet ; bar„„l e i v e l t to 8s ; oats 5s 9d to 6s 6d per ditto ; clov er see d, 5d to vu, o 4; pound ; potatoes, 125 per hobbet ; fresh butter 9d to salmon lld per pound. ila li GLASGOW, JUNE 19.—We have had but moderate al Ott from any quarter, yet adequate to the immediate wants ° O 5l trade. At Grangemouth about 2,289 quarters of wheat , ,;uso quarters of barley, 375 qu ar t ers o f oats, 215 quarters of % o f and 40 quarters of peas, reached from the continent. 9 $ the week there was a f a i r consump ti ve d eman d f or whea' o ' t her a good inquiry for flour, at fully last Wednesday's rates; Tbtl articles though quiet underwent no quotable change. does day's market was tolerably well attended, but the busine o _,,o l was not extensive. Wh e at and fl our were i n mo d e rate r,..7 sp er. at last Wednesday's currency. B ar l e y was th e turn e P al Oats have to be written 3d to 6d lo wer per boll, and ite id 6(1 to Is per load. Beans, peas, and Indian corn inch e d favour of the buyer. P er INVERNESS, JUNE 18.— alb Wheat, per qr, weighing - bushel, 37s cd to 40s Od ; barley, per quarter, w e !" 541 b per bushel, 19s to 20s Od ; oats, per quarter, sl e f e ri 421 b per bushel, 17s Od to 20s Od. O a t mea l, per larler, boll, 15s Od to Os Od ; ditto second, 14 1 0 d t o O s Od; meal, 12s 8d to Os Od ; peasemeal, I4s Od to Os Od ; b r : 6 i oa,! stone, Os 6d to Os Od ; first flour, per 2801 b., 34 s Od ' of 14 1 v second ditto, 26a Od to 28s Od ; oat mea l, b est , per stona bo ler imperial, is 6d to Os Od; ditto se con d, I s 4d to O s Od; by meal, Is 2d to Os Oi ; peaseme a l, I s 4d t o O s Od ; 6 " 3 4 cre: j 2s 4d cash, 2s 8d credit ; second ditto, 2s Od cash, 25 o d ' dit. Potatoes, per stone, 4%d to 5d ; beef, per. P°„,, u t o4" to 6d; veal, 4d to sd; mutt on , 4d t o 6d ; por k, 0 ". docks' fowls, each, 10d to I2d; chickens, p er p a i r , 12d to 16 d; fret' each, Od to Od ; eggs, per dozen, 4d to 6d ; butter , g d to per lb, 9cl to Od; ditto, salt, 9d to 10d ' • croudie (curd s)' 6#d' 60 ; ; four-pound loaf, cash, 5d to 6d ; ditto, credit, 5 1 uA coals, per cwt, 9d ; hay, per stone, 7d to Bd. MINING INTELLIGENCE. Tota l ' COPPER ORES SOLD AT REDRUTH, JUNE 20 •p o ppe r ' 2,993 tons ; average produce, 9}; quantity of fine ra ng e 275 tons 8 cwt ; amount of sale, 18,0411 6s 6d; spro' standard, 9518 s Od. X.ast Sale - Standard, 99l lis ; tor duce, 8. Average price per 21 cwt, 61 Os 6d. Vi tfr ia COPPER ORES FOR SALE AT LE N D KR YOU'S, ~s v e JUNE 27.—United Mines 835—Par Consols 363—", r f ; e leill," 306 —Wheal Comfort 233—South Caradon 226 Vpbet Consols 73—West Trethellan 36—Gonamena 3 0 " Banns 20—Total, 2,122 tons 21 cwts. 4 ~0 COPPER ORES FOR SALE A T C AMBOR NE, ti c r ipro 1 1 North Roskear 701—North Pool 612—C o nsols 553---%, t 97_ 551—Wh. Seton 419—Fowey Consols 310—Wh• 1186- 3,dfr —South Wh. Frances 233—Todd's Regulus 5--Tots" COAL MABEE' Bate's West Hartley 13s Od Begbies Hartley Creswell Main 12s 3d Davison's West Hartley 13s 6d East Adairs Main .lls Od Holywell North Percy Hartley l3s Od Tanfield Moor fanfield Moor Butes l2s Od Townley l3s Od Walker's Primrose West Wylam Windsor's Pontop Wall's End, &o. Acorn Close Bewicke and Co. Brown's Gas Gosforth Ships at ,T.—YESTXRDAT• 13 0 Harton ...............•• 135 Od Riddell ..... ......... Is l c o l Walker ............... 155 0 . Braddyll ............... Hetton .................. 151', 0(1 Keepier Grange ...... 15' Russell's Hetton ••••'' 14a ,A Scarborough ........••• I'„'"A Bentley... ............ 1 4 0 t o Ps Caradoc ... ..... *l 4 s 9cl lleugh Hall ........... 14 9 ;South Hartlepool ..... 45 AA ,South Kelloe ......... 125 ... 0 4 Whitworth ........... 1 5 5 aj Adelaide Tees ... ..... igi [ Hartley— ...... l 0 d INixon's Merthyr s" v 20# Cardiff ......... ..." market, 83. o ptea again Pr e , letil by Holloway's Ointment and Pills.—Extract froo l ed Alarl from Mr. S. Smith, 69, Chapel-street, Dublin. dat i thlo i ‘ 1 1 13, 1849 :—" To Professor Holloway. Dear Sir,--;onderf:, inly my duty to inform you and the public of th ° F o r 03. 11 Ore your ointment and pills have effected on me' fa°. g sears I had a dreadful wound in my leg. I tried all t hetpotbie m this city, but to no purpose; they informed we thaised could save my life but amputation. I was then b r ief peg% 0 celebrated doctor to use your remedies, which, in,. s :,„ r have healed my leg, and made it as strong as it l o e o r t r l°- -Sold by all Vendors of Medicine and at P rofess or way's Establishment, 244, Strand, London. BIRTHS. OF A SOW. On the lith . the inst., at Glen Stewart, Anon f. Drumlanrig. g the W ife ° On the 20th • inst., at Earlham-leclge, Norfol , Henry Morgan, Esq. k bill/ tile On the 20th.inst., at Adelaide-road, ilaverstoc - , wife of John G. Booty, Esq. OF A DAUGHTER . We °4 ' On Friday. the 21st inst. , at Oxford -villa, St. John's - ' the wife of William Hasell E 'un t he sq., J • oath, On the 18th inst., at Clere-cottage, Sim-roll', wife of G F H . . Hodson, Esq. MARRIED. b el l e, il ii r ‘ iri ci Viscounteo On the 19th inst., at Wickham Church, J. wright, Esq., Commander R.N., to Frances Isa G. P.' daughter of the late 'Rear-Admiral Sir F. A. Collier, K. C H. ~,, v Lel On the 18th inst., at Swansea, the Hon. and ive• ' o n i William Denman, rector of Washington, Durhafm,btet 0 ' Lord and Lady Denman, to Frances Marianne, dau b the late T. Eden, Esq., of the Bryn, near Swansea• DIED On the Bth inst., at E.liema, in the island ° Crro 7°. Frances Edith, daughter of Captain and the klon. 0 " „ il l ' Lambert Baynes. limn, JO On the 16th inst., at Bloomsbury, Birming- tin GAP widow of the late John Griffis, Esq.. tortneily a Georg e the 14th Dragoons, aged 74. On the 17th inst ,at Appleby, Westmor eland' ~: Thwaites, Esq., M.D ,aged 54. bew' to, f li44 the wife of Mr. John B. Thomson. . o f tbe On the 17th inst., at Spencer-square, Eamsga 'lot, On the 11th inst., at Creditors, Maria, relict c o l John Smith, Esq. -"I I 0 1 ~ — 10 1 J:11 London : Printed and Published by MURAQ Sp. l?io. 112, t3t,:and, Printer, at The Sun Ulle,. Strad, is the Precinct of the Savoy, in tos ''' litildteecv, Saturday, June 22, 1850. Of w 7 ' t ' '~ Thi manr at N( there when to su Garai Th , Irelai Socie nectc strict Kilt Th to thi being In lik arrov Th awe to a Fa halve Brou Engl Frat( Beat perm comp and and Presi than bider Ti, the I That the S place Tick Satu will class ing t Lott set d the squa all tl Mist . frost 11pc how. with Ilan •• , ' . `; ~•