The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-17 00:00:00

;e wh ° , hat of ,nly to la d to ticeplY le Cor i wain• s ;isbei L thew , es t re: ;e inti cat re accord isf O'er. nt, an d it Wilk 1 times of tJ ;1-,,stain su b .) * ect eld } ; i s t to re; • II eal :a ever satisfaction which had already been expressed ley those who were best able to judge of its importance, he meant the in struction of the people, proved that the best results might be auticipated from the improved feelings which the sister coun try would bear towards England. The measure was the more satisfactory, that while the • granted this boon to the Roman Cath o li cs, they did not in any degree injure the Protestant Es•• tablishrnent.—( Hear, hear.) The proposed measui e had already effected much good with the Catholics of Ireland, for they spoke i n hi g h terms of the l ib erality of this country, which o nferred on them this boon, for an object the dearest to their hearts, he meant the education of their eriests, a sum which that House did not hesitaee frequently to bestow on objects for t heir own gratification merely. They had the stroneest assu rances that the to: ebodings of certain Honourable 14J/sabers, with reward to the evils resulting from ts grant, would b e d oome l t o di sappo i ntment .—( H ear. ) e believed that this grant would produce the effects which nts su pporters anticipated. He believed so, beca use thou g h h e ffered with his Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen upon • 'Points of faith, he was convinced tl.ey were moved by feelings wh ich animated every Christian man, and were grateful for the kind ness o f E nglan d . Th ey were grateful, above : 1 " , for th ose b oons w hi c h were given in a disin serested spirit, because they were calculated to contribute t ' hv erially to th e com f orts an d e d ucat i on o f t h ose part i es i n he they t oo k t h e d eepest i nterest. Thi nk i ng these were 'themeffects likely to follow the measure, he was not to be tie. ;eased f rom prosecuting it by any casual expression which e i r gllt• have f a ll en i n t h e course of the de b ate from Hon. Alem si however di s ti ngu i s h e d t h ey m i g h t b e f or l earn i ng an d ability, and still less by any speech which had been wade in n e at House at any antecedent period. He entertained the . hint House respect for the Hon. Member for Dungarvon. Hi, le tnle ; rit and ability for discussing subjects of this nature were s Le fee 'ulY great, but nevertheless he was constrained to ir e from one part of a speech made by that cniourable Gentleman upon this Bill. But perhaps he TISSht not to fix upon a man whose poetic imagery 'as at once an excuse for the indiscretion he fell into, when he s tated that the Bill would not give satisfaction unless it led to so me ulterior measure ; nor did he concur with Lord Mont v.e_eaegdlee,awohnouailnlya,n accidental moment said the grant ought to be nataar. and ought to he under the supervision of Par es `", That expression was used sorre fourteen or fifteen ands ago. It was an expression, accidentally used, ; I :" not meant for the guidance ot Parliament at t he time even when it was delivered. Surely, I li it ought not to controul Parliament ha dis cuasi as 4, fourteen years afterwards, a measure of such im• Vtance as the one they were discussing. In the course of the • denote attempts had been made to enter upon poin•s extremely lu'liortant in th mselvea but which had little to do with the au ect of discussion • c en scussion, and therefore they did not necessarily it ter into th e consideration of th.s question. He did not think :ecessary now to discus.; whether it bc seoper that the State T e n uld extend favour to all religions. He did not deem it e eessary to ascertain whether they were bound now to take into eexolilsideration the general endowment of every sect that might s . es st in the country, because that was a question which had no e,r_eorence to the one immediately under discussion. But at all e e ts, if that question was connected with the grant to May eooth dee•a the time to have considered it was when the grant was e res l ued upon in the sear 1795. All they had to decide now whether, the principle having been adopted, they should fo r e s uch an augmentation to the grant as to make it effective ii sis t,he objects which induced Parliament originally to estab he I t. Allusion had freely been made to the petitions which 11 _1 beets presented on this subject. He admitted that they diffe r been extremely numerous, - but the generality of them afts !eed very much from the speeches which had been . made come the grant. The petitioners pursued a very different r4_ Ursa to the line of argument used by Hon. Gentlemen who s:sted the grant. The petitions uniformly proceeded upon l ie Principle that the grant was established for maintaining a ue,Tuan Catholic establishment, and they called upon the House Now ' to vote a reasonable grant, but to do away with it altogether. the w, with the exception of two Hon. Gentlemen, he mea . nt sitiOra Members for the University of Oxford and Dublin, a i "era Member who had spoke in the course of the debate Beautiestegt'le against the augmentation uf it, but they did not object maller amount - . But the petitioners looked upon the theth preposterous ; and let Hon. Gentlemen, therefore, not that if they succeeded in rejecting the Bill, it would stop reessue, they would have to proceed a step further. They tlu_st announce to the Roman Catholic body of Ireland that m e „time had now come when, instead of their rea. r7..nainmoayield, focronsidering their wants and demands, Parliament must withdraw from them the grant which they had a period of fifty years. It had been said that Par- Cash e a - a " was new for the first time going to establish a Roman 11 0 ""c endowment ; but for his part las differed from those of t a t : Members who held this opinion. What were the words apb•le preamble to the Act which first made this grant? for c e'. they were these :—" Whereas, by the law now in Cethsiniethis kingdom , . it is not lawful to endow any Roman puet) ..soerninary or college." Then came the enactment ead ew " ll l h said, " It shall be henceforth lawful to establish, and maintain any such college, and the same words e re te es used in a subsequent clause, which he did not think it was lie ri ; s sarY to read. Yes, it was the distinct intention of Par es.,.._ent to give the grant for that particular purpose, and the 4 4,7 grant had been repeated for the same purpose every year r soi e down to the present period. But supposing there was 4!ltention to endow the institution at that time, it was in• " .. aed to do so at some future period, and the Bill then before ar'' House provided for the endowment of the institution. His r-`tuattrable Friend in the next place objected to the ant beca use h e sa i d the Bill made it a permanent pWeed of an annual provision, and thus they laid down the rinciple th a t th e R oman Catholic religion should never cease n Ireland. Now he very much doubted whether by any le gislative enactment they could cause either the cessation or the I , l daancement of the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland; and least of all did he think that its permanence could be prevented "Y pro v idi ng f or th e wants o f t h e clergy in an indecent and U nbecomi ng mann e r . A we ll e d uca t e d p erson , in his rion, was more likely to become a convert to . Protestantism au one w h o h a d rece i ve d i n diff eren t instruction. He could the, the re f ore, agree w i t h t h e pr i nc i p l e w h ic h w i s h e d to k eep sh e Roman Catholics in ignorance to induce them to adopt himself urer faith--if he might be allowed the term—which he professed. No, he did not think that course would I.slreetheir end. They would have a far better chance of tl e s acht ui the hearts of :he Roman Catholic people, and rendering tsethP_Urer doctrines of the Protestant Church more acceptable ago m, by making every concession, and giving their clergy that7redueation. It had been stated in the course of the debate it " so h they gave a better education to the Roman Catholics, d ,„ etild endanger the Protestant religion, but he confessed he se •u n ot entertain any such fears, nor did he think either rea- Nobj e r a ePerience justified the opinion. He would ask his Itefer_rriend, who alluded to this subject, how it was that the prevailed itself was first effected ? Was it when ignorance 'tep ee '.eu, or when literature, science, and art began to ad not u ? Europe? Hi s Noble Friend knew full well that it was erulsZttile science an d li terature had b egun to illuminate the and , and the monks began extensively to cultivate the arts sentedssences, that the leaders of the Reformation pre bleu, themselv es to t h e wor ld . T hey were the vdle hlvad° • had obtai ne d a prev i ous lii erary c h aracter, and It less b dist inguished :th e m se l ves i n c l ass i ca l a tt a i nments . brok e i ut Until they acquired these attainments that the light w erld 11 1 ) ° 11 them, and then they illumined the whole keep ti / I '' e l th the Roman blessings of Protestantism. 11e said then to Pro gress tlornan Catholics in ignorance was only to stop the t heir of truth in Ireland, while by increasing 1 4 a d e v y a ; e o a l 4 o , f , religious instruction and erlucation, h e ne the th row . a blessing upon the land, and not ethane pries nation ef its inhabttants.— h ( H inaccept etl Priests had repeatedly declared that tey would tend tbereor endowment from the State, and his Noble Peopl e e argued, that if they were to break faith wit utild se who contributions they were supported, they 'vas Pactmpelled to accept of a State allowance. But it hat clerg;ro'rt of the present measure to endow the Catholic ef uthnel.ake them independent of the voluntary con!ri %a: the their flocks. It was altogether erroneous to say Roman Catholic of the grant would increase the number of Brent;e w ould t•eatholic priests in Ireland. The . effect of the altd a de st i ned merely to improve the education of those . who seilt d ecent ma.be pricsts—to . supply the students with books m aintenance which they did not possess at pre bett' a nd thereby to render them better men, and, he hoped, w Chri • c oul d ,_ _stians, He did not believe that many in the House Lama send to concur in the proposition that the grant 0 4t et ti ljtr e r n s ait s e gether done away with. The grant was confirmed had et the Union. For 14 years it was continued with 7,P9aitteri, an.d.every. opposition which had since been raised ee 'l defeat Y. lkle tz en by a large majerity. On no occasion had ust Cheer' of the House of Commons been found to vote ;h e at °lle:pant. If they could not do away with the grant, , re than ion could there be to a measure which proposed no oltti — art th m a k be en eit effective for its purpose? Some objection Hue th s wade to the time when the increase was proposed. th e ught that there could be no time more appropriate than • tonesent, ds e di tie. when the energy of the Government had con !•tie L e , improved the finances of the country, and left nna i glsiature the means of granting without danger a boon l i t h e !! te m p c i es PeZPle o . f Ireland so much desired.. There were which he would have desired to address the be s l e c 2., 3 i f the debate had not been already so much prolonged. orry that it fell to his lot to address the House when GtO eTmY Members were absent. He was sorry to be obliged teletie tlernau, l ee t, the or " "e Sat dspeech of any Member ; but he was compelled, h own,. to allude to the speech of a Right Hon. hY i t ou .0 said that although the measure was a good th e gilt not to have been brought forward ts `u heels present Government. But the late Ministers se years in power and they had never ventured to ..tSfue grant to the Catholic Church in Ireland. They le lti t _ t _therefore to stigmatise those who under greater tae m a n had the courage to propose it. The Right Hon. "ue h e e" opposite had accused the Right Hon. Baronet at i the Government• • s *Sie au in dividual , if well f oun d e d , was not a valid charge 0 4 “st au eatir „lr. M acaul e Government. Th e R ig h t Hon, Gentleman el) _ eY) said that his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. cod rnade nse of passions with which he did not sympa iinsTitinr.ol3°.ba,iroroopPreiudices which he held in contempt. Let the her rf this allegation with the speech made by the fosr. Edinburgh in 1840, when . he expressed Robert Peel's conduct in abstaining t hos ind ul,gence in the passions and prejudices of the majority et ite e ; U 0 su ell y: odisbap . po P.Ported htm. He thought there could be e , 0 jection to the principle ef the present measure, and tint Pad that the expectations which had been raised would inted, because the measure was proposed by R e who were liable to the charge of inconsistency.—( Hear. ) ee_sleuceiautecldud!d by imploring the House to pass the Bill, as one to promote good order and religion in the sister e untry si r • eeuide W.L!LLIAM CLAY said that he did not think that there thTonpersonalreasons t ,„""z" another Memberor opposing o th si e House who could have Whi c h hen, himself. There existed in the measure now . before a the widely'la rg . e s constituency feelingtuen ey Of dis c had the honour to represenr ea sote trirobat i„ of this me d asure, and . many o his friends to and e was most deeplytin indebted participated in that feeling, hisd suend . pporting that measure he es r , I,ass conscious that h •taing the loss of theira in ship. He could not but think, u ddre e Peef ectlY agreed with many Honourable Gentlemen who measure had been greatly miss %retied the House, th w at t egos, ended and misre resen ts ted, and he believed that no in s.riseitteerable portion of pthe excitement out of doors may have Nej e °tit of that misapprehension. In the harangues at tee ue Meetings on the petitions presented to the House the Cattl eA r i e e W et . talked of either as an endowment to the Roman I nent. , Ch urch or as a necessary precursor to such an endow that 't He denied the accuracy of that description. He denied was in an other or greater degree an endowment to the CatholieYurch than the existing grant to Maynooth. r a beoiizzaeteiloans a f grant for educational purposes ; it was an a e r rely uld ee grant made by a Protestant Irish tieuellent, and afterwo that tliwy atnhouniwteedroPmarelirarmlyenaht,ouantdtocoion: ;ease thatfigftrYanyte,arandatnaodrsubstituteya good system of education a bad at either one or theth Only cichi ed th "e * That wa difference, and he distinctly Rom e other could ever be described as dtielecrilideeltirnent to the an Catholic Church. If it were suedetls e asel its . an ecclesiastical endowment, he did not see wh ye after year _would not apply to those grants which suede e oujection y arnedrieviiido had ic ariez dividedo fheedtuweeaetniotnhaelthey National, uros s i a n o d t s Britisheo un t a r o y d , It could not be denied that many I,:forlis.alsietdUcateedietblyes.th grants might become non-con te d for was tree that insMa noeth only the students who i ere edge clergymen in theY Roman Catholic Church e_reurest ,ducat betweenhe did net see any difference, under the ;IL? ose r e n io n n s, . a earn of money given for the education ees.o to ea c h . g i ng to several denominations, and several sums z . agnt t o be se p s esad been found , " 41• 0 a schoolstheby experience , that there 'Ned for the edu of those who 441117r4 en of Ch ord IThich enjoinod ,~ `~- .. THE SUN, LONDON, TFIURSDAV EVENING, APRIL 17, 1845. cause he believed he would find himself ou this occasion in the same lobby with those from whose principles he entirely dis sented. And, atter the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Bandon, he thetight that any man who should vete on the same side with him ought to explain his grounds for doing so, for anything more intolerant, he might say insane, with regard to the policy which ought to be pursued towards Ireland he had never heard—( Hear)—and he could not believe it till he had heard it that any person coming from Ireland would have used such language.—( Hear.) He did not think that this question should be favourably or unfavourably regarded on account of the party from which it proceeded: The Right Hon. Gen tleman had been charged with inconsistency with regard to this measure, but he thought that the grou nds for that charge arose from the unfortunate circumstances connected with the late Opposition, and which were of such a nature that he could not, when in power, propose any good measure without being charged with inconsistency of conduct,—( Hear, hear. ) He (Mr. Bright) should consider the measure on its own merits, without reference to party. His opposition to the measure was grounded on his ob;ection that the public taxes should be made to contribute to the support of any institution purely ecclesias tical, or the rearing of the priesthood of any particular sect. He opposed it because, from all he could learn from both sides of the House—from the public press—and even the organs of the Ministry, there was no argument used in defence a o n f d th iam the present of all measure which would not be as valid in defence (, . of further measures, not for the endowmen t o f th e R oman Catholic Colle ge o f Maynooth only, but for the endowment hsi Hear hearnett e , d "and w o i that h, oh. Church in England and I re l an d. ___He admitted that the principle of the argument which justified the original grant would be good to the same extent to justify the present vote. The Right Hon. Baronet said the principle was already conceded, and that the question now was as to a difference of a few thousands. But in ten or twenty years hence some Prime Minister would stand up and say that in 1795 the principle was conceded, and again in 1845, and arguing from those two cases it would be easy to demonstrate that there ought to be the es tablishment of a new Church in Ireland, and this adding to the monstrous evils which had already flowed upon Ireland from one Church connected with the State.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet paid no great compliment to the Roman Catholic gentlemen of Ireland when he said that the grant of 9,0001. was sufficient to damp their generosity. If 9,0001. damped their generosity 27,0001. would lie likely to destroy it altogether ; and when he recollected that the Roman Catholic gentry in Ireland paid no income-tax— (Cries of " Hear, hear" )—no property-tax—no assessed taxes.—( Hear, hear)--He thought that it ought not to be altogether impossible or unlooked for, that they should support a college for the education of the priesthood of a religion to which they were so much devoted.—( Hear, hear.) But he also objected to the measure in another point of view—a point of view which was totally opposed to that of the Hou, Member for Leicester, who approved of the measure because it would soothe the discontent of Ireland. Did that discontent arise from the priests in Maynooth not being sufficiently well educated ? He thought it arose more from the fact of one-fourth of the population being paupers, and there being no regular employment. That was a state of things which was most disastrous, and he should not like a measure which would have the effect of making the wr o ngs of Ireland less known to the people of Ireland. One great means of influence possessed by those who agitated the wrongs of Ireland was to be found in the support which the Roman Catholic clergy gave to the various associations which had for their object the removal of those wrongs. His objec tion to the Bill was that it would tame down agitation—it was a " sop" given to the priests—it was " hush-money," that they might not proclaim the wrongs of the Irish people to the whole country, to Euroise, and to the world. The Protestant Church in Ireland was at the root of the evils of that country ; and the Irish Roman Catholic priests would thank them more for sweep ing out that foul blot than if they established their own church alongside of it.—( Hear, hear.) They had everything Pro testant in Ireland—they had a Protestant clique dominant there —they had a Protestant Viceroy, who distributed all the places and emoluments of office amongst that clique—they had Pro testant Judges who polluted the stream of justice.—( Cries of " Oh, oh.") They had Protestant magistrates, before whom in a thousand cases no Catholic peasant could hope for justice. Renewed marks of dissent.) They bad Protestant ex terminating landlords, whose exterminating principles chiefly fell upon the Roman Catholics upon their estates.--( No, no. ) They had more than that--they had a Protestant soldiery who, at the beck and command of a Protestant priest, killed a son even in the presence of a widowed mother.--(" Hear, hear," and marks of disapprobation.) Why, these things were notorious —he merely stated them without bringing any proof to establish their accuracy—( Hear, hear) — but the person who was not convinced of their truth must have paid very little attention indeed to passing events.— (Hear, hear.) The consequence of all this was, the extreme discontent of the people of Ireland; and because they were not prepared to take those measures which would be really just. towards Ireland, and do away with that Protestant Establish ment which was certainly the most disgraceful institution which existed in Christendom. Because that House was not pre pared to do that, it was going to muzzle the watch-dogs of the people, and to take from Air. O'Connell the sympathy of the priests, in rousing the people of Ireland to a sense of their wrongs. They were going to give the priests of Ireland a little more of Latin and of Greek, in order that they might become as tame as the priests of Suffolk and Dorset, who, when the horizon was blazing around with incendiary fires, had not dared to speak of the wrongs of the people amongst whom they lived. (Hear, hear.) And when pauperism was staring them in the face, the priests would not dare to assist in wresting from an oppressive Go vernment those rights to which the people had a just claim. He objected altogether against the system of paying priests for any purpose, under any circumstances, or at any time what ever. Nothing could be more disastrous to civil liberty— nothing more injurious to religion itself, than such a system ; and if they wanted to make the Catholic priesthood of Ireland as useless for all practical purposes as the paid priests of their own Establishment, he asked them, by all means, not only to give this 26,0001. a-year, but as much as the Government could induce the House to grant. His firm conviction was that Ireland suffered from one Church, and not from having two churches. He admitted that equality must be obtained by the abolition of one or by the establish ment of the other, for whilst there was a Church with a small congregation and overpaid ministry, costly establish ments and little work, it was impossible they could have peace and contentment in that country. But this measure, notwith standing all that had been said by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, WAS for the purpose of staving off the necessity to which they had nearly arrived, of making some change in the Establish ment. If it were possible to give to the Catholic priests a por tion of the public funds, as they had already given the regium donuts to the Presbyterians of the north of Ireland. they would find them united with the Established Church, as the Presbyterians then were, against any step taken for the pur poso of overturning the whole system of Church and State in that country. He was of opinion that the experience of a State Church was net of that favourable character which would admit of their going further in that direction.—( Hear.) They had a State Church in this country, and many excellent men were connected with its ministry, but from time immemorial a spirit of persecution,' of a most deplorable and injurious character, had existed, and even now did exist, pressing with relentless malignity, as in the cnse of an unfortunate shoemaker in Cambridge, who re fused to pay, out of his hard earnings, some 16s. or 18s. for Church-rates.—(Hear, hear.) This poor man was pursued from court to court with a relentless spirit, which, one would hope, did not exist at this period. Some Hon. Gentlemen applied hard words to the Catholic Church, but they should re collect that all the errors which they attributed to it, found a home and awarm welcome in the EstablisheciChurch. In Wales, three-fourths of the whole people were dissenters from that Church. In the manufacturing districts of Lancashire and York shire, the Established Church was but an unwieldy machine, unable to minister to the growing wants and intelligence of the people. In Scotlaitel, where the most perfect model of a church establishment was said to exist, they had there a Seces sion Church—a Relief Church—a Free Church, and that which the State upheld by compulsion—the Residuary Church. If the English, and Scotch, and Irish Churches of this description did so little good—if they had been productive of such serious evils, he would ask whether it was proper they should do any thing for the establishment of another? If he were at all in favour of this endowment, he would vote fur this Bill with all his heart. He believed that if the principle of endowment was right, a more just or wise measure than the present was never introduced to the Parliament of this country— ( Hear, hear)—because he had no doubt that the effect must be in some degree to create a kindlier feeling on the part of the people of Ireland towards the Government. —( Hear, hear.) lie regretted as much as any man could regret that there should be anything in the agitation against the Bill that tended to impair that feeling. —(Hear, hear.) There were two parti es opposed to it. One party represented by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House—they stated that they considered the Catholic faith as a thingt whenwhich should net be established, o r helped by the State ; but their own Church was absorbing millions of the public money, whilst millions of their countrymen refused to enter its doors, he asked how could they for a moment object to the passing of the of non-con ttohitshmatecashuurreehwhiicnhlwreoluanhdl gtnivewhsioethnentsouratoonfs s o h f ow th o e f p a e s o si p s l t e anc o e f that country belonged ? There was another p a fo n r d m h i s e t s w ai sorryG rea Great Britain osa y ( t who wo ui d w e b r e e o t t o hiniu m ut e t as o measure, that these . non-conformists allowed a spirit to enter into their feel, the force of that great principle of nonconformity for which their forefathers struggled .—( Hear, hear. ) A large class, agitation, which showed they did not understand, or did not more especially a portion of the esleyan body, did not re pudiatepersisted in agitation, it ought to be a gainst the principle of the principle of endowment ; if those who remained en dowment altogether. When the Dissenters looked back to all and of the world, if they did net come their forefathers had suffered, even within a late period, they would be so recreant to their own principles as to merit the an o c i rnd se id d . and dissent from and that h t e he helie m v e e a d su th r e e pr i i n ncip e l v e er o y f stage contemp tforward a n o d f t his apply House , their own principle oppose, to the utmost of their ability, the measure now under the consideration of Parliament. He ( Mr. opposition on any simply on this ground,, Bright) would endow ment was most unjustifiable and injurious to the country. Govern ment—whether on that of the Right Hon. Baronet, or any pre ceding or succeeding one—there was no attachment to party or Government which would induce him for one moment to tam per with what he held to be the greatest and dearest principle which any man or body of men could take up.—( Hear, hear. ) Whatever might be the effect of his When he looked back at history, he saw that all they possessed of liberty did not is oppose • sue from the portals of ath .dral c e s and parish churches, but from the conventicler .; and when a g oo d an d liberal measure was t o be carried o in the House, it w as genera ll y carried by the representatives the non-conformist s o f G reat Britain. They must s ee from thef past and th e p resen t, t h at State religions had been alw a y s opposed o civil an d religious lib er ty ; that they, in a great measure, t destroyed th e vitality of religion ; and, holding these opinions, it was in spossi • ble he could give a vote which should in t he smallest degree give any assistance to wawa. In conclusi h the principle of endo that in II on, e would say to the Dissenters of England a %position to this or any such measures they shou ld form no union—make no alliance with men in favour of endowment—they should stand on the and unassailable principle of non-endowment , great, pure, that they should manfully contend ;and if they continued to do the so, the time might come —nay, d time would c ome --when that principle would be adopte b y the Legislature of the country.—(Cheers.) Lord J. MANNERS said the Hon. Member had charac terised of the Noble Lord the M em b er the speech for Bandon in terms which, if they had fallen from any other Hon. Member, he should have cons idered as being rather strong ; but t ap peared that they were applied the i premi s es rather latter both than to the conclusion, for in the seemed to agree. Th e Noble Lord having displayed considerable knowledg e o f t h e subject as well as theological ability, he was at first surpri se d t o a d hear such terms appl ied by the Hon. Member ; but when he had listened to some of his statements his surprise ceased, for the Hon. Gentleman appealed to English history, and asked what traces of religious liberty were to be found in connexion with our cathedrals and churches? Why s was it to the con venticles of the English nation that we owed Magna Charta ? ( Hear.) He could not congratulate his lion. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford upon such an ally as the Hon. Member for Durham.—(Hear, and a laugh.) But to pass from that Hon. Member, who certainly spoke under very unfavourable circumstances to himself, he would endeavour to address himself to the subject immediately before the House. He was one of those few Tory Members who, when in the year 1843 the affairs of Ireland were discussed at great length, and under circumstances of no ordinary gravity in that House, ventured to express a strong opinions that there were remedial measurers, which a Tory Minister, poor indeed.—(Laughter, and ironical cheers from the Oppo sition.) Hon. Members might laugh, but he would repeat it, that applications had been made to those Commissioners for the repairing of churches that had gone into a most dilapidated state, but the invariable answer received was that the Commis si•oners had no funds. Indeed, in the diocese in which he re sided, there were no fewer than fifty places licensed for public worship, i❑ which there was no church, while in others, the churches were in so dilapidated a state, thathe had seen the rain falling clown through the roof during the period of public wor ship. Yet, though he heard much said of the poverty of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, let him call upon the House to look at the poor miserable schools the Protestants of Ireland were furnished with, and contrast them with the magnificent cathedrals that the Roman Catholics had erected for their places of public worship.—( Loud cheers and laughter from the Opposition.) Hon. Members opposite might cheer and laugh; but if they had seen these edifices as he had, they would not do so.—(Continued laughter. in which the Hon. Member for Waterford, Mr. Wyse, joined.) The Honour able Member opposite laughed, but he ( Lord Bernard) would ask him, was it not notorious that in addition to the Roman Catholics having erected splendid edifices for their worship in Ireland, they had actually remitted 10,0001. a-year for the purpeee of propagating the Roman Catholic faith in countries which he ( Lord Bernard) was ready to admit were colonies subject to the British Government. If such then was the fact, why should not the Roman Catholics support themselves, and be above demanding any support from the State ? With respect to the statements that had been made, to the effect that the revenues now enjoyed such as Strafford, Tyrconnell, and Pitt, would not have ob jected to ; and who, when her Majesty's Ministers stated in reply that concession had reached its utmost limits, backed that opinion by an hostile vote. He now, therefore, thought it right to come forts ard, not shrinking from bearing his share, humble and insignificant as it might be, of that odium to which her Majesty's Ministers were subjected, and to vindicate to the be , t, of his power the course they were taking.—(Cheers. ) He felt that in the present. wreck of parties, and the general confusion of all classes of men, it was a matter of no ordinary difficulty to form a definite and distinct principle of action, and to carry that principle consistently into execution. But he did not think it impossible to overcome that difficulty, and he would endeavour to elucidate the position, which, as a member of the English Church, he thought he could, consistently, take on this question, and to reply to some of the arguments which had been advanced against the Government proposal, with but one great assertion, which combined in such an inharmonious concert of opposition to this measure all classes of Pro testant Dissenters, he had no concern—he meant that assertion that the Roman Catholic religion was the religion of anti-Christ, and that, therefore, any support of the College of Maynooth was treason against Christianity.— ( Hear, hear.) Those who held that opinion were not only right, but were imperatively called upon to wage the war they were waging against this grant. But as no reasoning would have any effect upon such a conviction, he should pass from that consideration, contenting himself with asserting that the Church of England nowhere imposed so tremendous a belief upon its members, and that he was altogether uninflu enced by it.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Bandon had represented the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland as in a schismatical position. But, even admitting it was, he thought no one on looking to history could venture to deny that it was they—the people of England, the Puritans of Elizabeth and of Cromwell, the inventors of the penal code— they who gave that nation an English-speaking clergy, and who were at least partially responsible for that schismatical position. It was in vain that he looked into history for a pre cedent to show that the Church of Rome in Ireland could now he looked upon as guiltily schismatical; nor if he looked into the formularies and doctrines of our Church, or read the works of her greatest divines, did he find anything which should make him think that he was acting disloyally towards her in supporting the proposed grant to Maynooth.—( Hear.) That Church regarded the Roman Catholic Church as a true, though not altogether a pure branch of the great Church universal, and he thought that the sentiment contained in the following lines could not be too often repeated : " Speak gently of our sister's fall ; Who knows but gentle love May win her at our patient call, The surer way to prove ?" ( Hear, hear.) But, to come to the peril in which the Irish Church stood, which had been often alluded to in the course of the debate, but by no one with such ability and manly eloquence as by the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire. That the Irish Church should be imperrilled or her stability endangered by this grant, he (Lord J. Manners) could not believe; but, when he said that, he was far from denying that lie regarded the position of the Irish Church as one of imminent and great peril. She was indeed in danger; but it was from herself—from her own children that that peril had arisen. —(Cheers.) It was not from the Vatican; it was not from the Jesuits ; it was not from Maynooth ; but it was from her own sons—from those who would have her separate herself from the whole of Catholic Christendom, that the Irish Church was endangered and when he saw, as h e did see the other day, that venerable Prelate who occupied so wor thily the see which Jeremy Taylor had filled before him, com plaining openly that the faithful clergy over whom he pre sided were subjected by the Protestant laity to persecution, to slander, and to tyranny, he was compelled, indeed, to own that the Irish Church was in danger; but whilst he thought so, he was inevitably reminded of the dying words of Arch bishop Laud :—" Poor Church of England ! she hath flou rished, and hath been a refuge for neighbouring Churches when the storm was upon them ; but now she is in a storm and strait herself, and God only knows whether or how she shall get out ; and worse than a storm from without, she is like an oak cleft to shivers by wedges made out of its own body, and that Church, which all the machinations of the Jesuits could not ruin, is fallen into danger by her own."—( Cheers.) For these considerations he felt free as a Churchman to vote either for or against the grant. When he considered the question on the grounds of state policy, he refused to be precluded from supporting the grant by the assertion of the exclusive Pro testantism of the State. Those who liked might refer all the glory and renown of the old English monarchy back to the Dutch conquest of 1688, which subverted it, but he claimed a right to ascend higher, and to consider it just as if William 111. had died Stadtholder of Holland.—( Hear, and a laugh. ) What was the special form that the question then assumed? They found that for the last fifty years 7,000,000 of Irish Ro man Catholics had been ministered unto by a priesthood edu cated in Ireland, and so educated at the express desire of the State. Be had said " express desire" of the State ; but he ofat for rodßuntgoohmhtat Roman eecy might mabth.gohl Catholic hh theira a v v p e e en made u priests said alabb yros, abroad, o laws, dt,h f e ba whichcuos ttinifbl forbade yru s be t l asrvdioeonerngy the hmf etehaeducation expression, s w h State;"i the State could devise, was the foreign education of t ( h mHoe ß vare o ci, hbl ewould priests L o Lord dmp theoe s r t hAa ip sedulously re nL p i r vs e oe v nir e pe r o d o e Hl d he . — nad. fmhoeraanrr Catholic r a l th s ho w eli i Ne d Mem bers of that House as to the extraordinary policy which the English State thought it wise to pursue upon that subject. They were now told, however, that Irish Roman Catholic priests ought to be educated abroad. He wanted to know if those who said so were prepared to show any funds and colleges in existence by which that education could be obtained.—(Hear, hear.) The returns to which he had alluded would, he imagined, show that when at the close of the late war a claim of 160,090/. was made upon the French Government to compensate for the loss of funds devoted to Roman Catholic educational purposes, that great man who had been appointed referee upon the occasion—the Duke of Wellinton—was compelled to strike his pen th roug h that item, and` to declare, that as the law of England then stood, that sum of money must be altogether lost and con fiscated.—( Cheers.) What were the arguments which were adopted on the ground of state policy to prevail on them to discontinue this grant? It was said, that the experiment of an Irish education for the priesthood had now been tried for 50 years, and that it had turned out a failure. It was very easy, however, to cry out that it was a failure, and it was very easy to declaim againtt the dirt and disloyalty of Maynooth, and to draw striking comparisons between the education and manners of the old foreign priests and of those of the present day; but he (Lord J. Manners) doubted, in the first place, whether that failure were so great and palpable as it had been described ; ly, whether, even if it were so great, the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government might not be justified in laying the blame rather at the door of St. Stephen's than at the door of St. Patrick's ; and, 3dly, he doubted whether the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed, to take to remedy that failure for the future might not be a wiser one than that which the opponents of the grant advised.—( Hear, hear.) But as to the failure ; what was it ? Why, that the college in which they educated 400 young men at 9,0001. a year did not possess all the learning of Padua, mingled with all the graces of Paris ! It had been said further, also, that the Maynooth clergy were deficient in loyalty ; that they did not inculcate those principles of passive obedi ence and non-resistance to the laws which they should wish to see. He (Lord J. Manners) denied that that was the fact to any . great extent, and those pas toral letters which this winter had proceeded from the Titular Archbishops of Armagh and Dublin might, he thought, be taken as some proof of the spirit which their clergy inculcated, and of the doctrines which they taught-- (C/leers.) He might be wrong in his supposition ; but he believed that no harm would accrue either to Conciliation hall or to Covent-garden, if copies of those letters, written in gold, were suspended in the most conspicuous parts of those buildings.—(Cheers.) His firm belief was, that it was not the doctrine taught at Maynooth which prevented the Roman Catholic presthood from being so successful as, he was sure, all must wish that they should be in keeping down agita tion in Ireland; but, it was the struggles after life—it was the sense of undeserved inferiority —it was the anomaly of their position, which broke dawn, so to speak, the theoreti cal loyalty which they had learned in the poverty-stricken cloisters of Maynooth, and which had compelled them, by means which could not be approved, to seek, if possible, the political regeneration of their eountry.—(Cheers.) He would admit then, so far, that Maynooth might be said to have failed ; but he would ask in all sober seriousness, could it be said to have failed in the highest and most important objects for which it had been instituted? Had the priesthood of Ire land educated in Maynooth failed in their greatest and holiest functions? had the morality of the country suffered under their tutelage? Were the men less sober—the women less chaste, than under the old:regime ? Or were they, in spite of all the circumstances of penury and want tinder which they had been educated, still fulfilling those holy and sacred functions with a zeal and a devotion arid a self-denial which could not be surpassed?—( Cheers. ) Were they still, he would ask them, in the words of his Hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury to the Irish people— " The priests—those gentle priests and good, their fathers loved to hear, Sole type below, 'midst work and woe, of the God whom they revere?" (Loud cheers.) If then, in spite of all the depressing circum stances to which he had alluded, they did still occupy that position, he would entreat the Protestant gentlemen in that House to pause before they, in contemptuous terms, condemned the priesthood of a religion which, he feared, from the lan guage that had fallen from some, they neither esteemed nor understood.—( Hear, hear.) Then, it had been said, and with great force, in that work from which he might be per mitted to say that so many of the arguments against this mea sure had been drawn—he meant the remarkable and learned work of Dr. Christopher Wordswerth—(" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp)—that whereas by all other countries, whether Protestant or Roman Catholic, in which the Roman Catholic religion was acknowledged, and sanctioned, and sup ported by the State, every precaution was taken, and every safeguard was devised, to secure the temporal supremacy of the monarch against the Roman power—in these realms alone no such precautions were taken, and that here alone was " free trade with Rome." " The English nation," it continued, " pays for Maynooth, and the Pope governs it; shall not the nation either cease to support or the Pope to rule it ?" " The priest takes a vow of obedience to the Roman pontiff; the bishop swears to maintain the Papacy, and to preserve the rights and royalties of St. Peter; the archbishop may riot exercise his sacred functions till he has received the pallium of Rome. Priests, bishops, and archbishops, are all the vassals of Rome, rather than the subjects of Queen Victoria, and yet it is to them that we make over the exclusive management of the establishments fur the education of the Roman Catholic priests." Those were the premises. He (Lord J. Manners) admitted them to be true ; but what was the conclusion at which the Rev. Gentleman and those who agreed with him arrived? —to have nothing whatever to say to that enormous power which they themselves admitted to be so greatly influential and formidable. It was a case, in his opinion, for a course of conduct totally different. He would say to these gentlemen— " Admit frankly and freely into your union and inter course that power which you acknowledge to be so great and extensive. Accredit a Minister to the Vatican--receive a Nuncio at St. James's—and see whether you cannot thus clo what you never can effect if you continue by the most m a ise m r o a : ble and childish weakness to ignore the existence of • ions ear, hear.) over every portion of your vast dom . ! • . hed with him Those were some of the conclusions which weighed whichnarehy a w y h e i t c h permitted was great thebefore exerciseE gl a o n f grave and most important in coming to a decision on that and to endeavoured to reply ; but of whose arguments he had thus arguments fen- himself, he while he had attempted to answer those d su w c u h t a re k m in ( e g raoug most cordial concurrence could not refrain from expressing Ins Friend the Member for in the repudiation of his Right Hon.. favour of the grant. For question, far opposed to that of many Hon. Members, to some Newark of some of the arguments in himself, he could say that he did n ot vote for the g rant because ht its effects would be t o Protestantise Ireland, but he did so in that frank , generous, and confiding spirit to which th e Right Hon. B a ronet had appealed; and whilst that part of his hisubject, that Right Hon. Baron et must p er mit him (Lord J. he thought Manners) to remind him that the Ir i sh Rom an Catholic Church Was not the only ecclesiastical body in this empire to which the . English State should extend its support—to which it were ad visable that she should b e actuated in he r conduct by a frank, generous, and confiding spirit also.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet and the House might believe him (Lord Man ners), that the opposition and great resistance given to the pre sent grant by so large, and he admitted so respectable, a body of the clergy . of the Established Church was not the less deter mined, sustained and profound, because they felt and believed by the Protestant Church had been taken from the Roman Catholics, he begged to say that never was an historical fact more contrary to the real state of the case.—( Laughter from the Opposition benches.) He was prepared now, or at any other time, to defy any man to prove that such was the fact.— ( Renewed laughter.) The Noble Lord then entered into a disquisition on the history of the events that took place in this country, in Ireland, in Scotland, and on the Conti nent, immediately prior and subsequent to the Pro testant Reformation, which, he contended, plainly showed that the revenues now in the possession of the Pro testant Church properly and legally belonged to it, and concluded this branch of his observations by stating that the only incident which the Protestant Church had to deplore was that by which it was for a time deprived of its lawful rights was when Pope Adrian the Fourth sold Ireland to Eng land.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then again adverted to the present state of the Protestant Church in Ireland. He contended that the ministers of that Church were self-deny ing, zealous, and disinterested, and were, therefore, held in the highest esteem by their flocks. He denied that the Roman Catholics did not seek for supremacy in their Church. Al ready they had attained supremacy in the corporations, and if they got this measure they would never cease until their •• crellgren was supreme. Let him ask if the Roman Catholic lergy were to receive two hundred pounds a year each, how was the Government to maintain the clergy of the Protestant Church whio were now so poorly paid?—( Ironical cheers. ) He would call on the House to pause. Let them consider the position in which they stood. They were not to imagine that because no petition had hitherto come from the Protestant population of Ireland, that therefore they approved of the mea sure then before the House, Let the House recollect that Catholic Emancipation had been granted, and he would ask whether the effect had been to conciliate Ireland? Concession and conciliation had only produced fresh demands in Ireland. He would again call upon the House to pause, for let them recollect Facilis descensus Averni Nodes atque dies pwtet atri janua ditis, Sed revocare gradum, superasque evadere ad auras Hoc opus, hic labor e,t. Sir J. EA ST HOPE, who was very indistinctly heard in the gallery, said he had presented a petition, agreed to at one of the largest meetings ever held in the town which he had the honour to represent. One of the allegations of that petition was, that this Bill, if passed, would prove the first step to wards supplanting Protestantism by Popery. He could not help believing that these assertions were founded in error. He believed that the alarm which had spread through the country, with respect to this measure, was entirely unfounded. lie be lieved that no Minister, however strong he might be with re spect to numbers in that house, would ever hate a chance of car rying any measure, whose effect would be to endanger the exist ence or stability of the Protestant Church. but that was not the question they had to discuss. The plain question was, whether they should govern the Catholics of Ireland in a spirit of jus tice, kindness, and conciliation ? It was not the question, whether the institutions of the country would be affected, but whether eight millions of people were to be cared for ? The ques tion was, whether they could resist the demands of the people for instruction? Those demands which they had a right to make. What objection could be made to the priests of Ireland being educated in their own country ? Every one knew of the efforts which had been made to drive these priests to other countries. They knew, and every one must know, the beggarly state of their principal College, and the state of degradation— he might add, destitution—into which the students there were thrown. He could not help feeling that it was worthy of remark their not seeing on those benches to support this measure, that Hon. Gentlemen, and those who were in immediate connexion with him, who had led the agitation for repeal of the Legis lative Union ; and he could not help feeling that there was good ground for expectation, if justice was done by this measure, that agitation would cease. What was Mr. O'Con nell's strength but Ireland's wrongs ? What was an adequate and fit redress but kindness, conciliation, and justice ? Those were the views which had influenced him, painful as it might be, in placing himself in opposition to those who had sent him to that House. As he entertained these opinions, and he entertained them strongly, he felt that it would be unworthy of the confidence of those who had sent him to that House, if he did not support that opinion by his vote, in spite of those of his constituents. He believed that this measure would have the effect of suppressing a dangerous agitation-- that it would cure complaint, that it would redress grievances, and inspire confidence in this country on the part of the Irish people. He confessed that when a good gift was offered, he was not very much disposed to complain of the donor. In con sidering this question, he did not think it necessary to make any complaint of inconsistency on the part of the proposers of this measure, although he regretted that the Right Hon. Gen tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had so badly de fended himself with respect to that subject.—( Great laughter. ) But he thought the less said on that matter the better. He gave credit to those who had embarked in this course for being actuated by good motives, and he did not stop to con sider whether there was consistency in their conduct or not. There was one thing he could not pass over in this discussion, and that was, the absence of those Gentlemen from whom they had so often heard of Ireland's grievances. He thought it was remarkable that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem ber for Cork, and those who were associated with him, were not in their places to support this measure. He (Sir John Easthope ) cared not for the expression of approbation —he cared much more for action. He believed that this measure would contribute towards the stilling of agitation. The people of Ireland would be in better temper with the people of England. When he said the people of Ireland, he did not mean the 900,000 Protestants in that country, but he meant the 8,000,000 of her inhabitants. He believed that the 800,000 Protestants of Ireland would be delighted to find that the 8,000,000 were more contended, that they had been taken from agitation to improvement, and that they had been in duced to take a course, which would increase the welfare and prosperity of this country. He believed that the interest of the whole empire was involved in this measure, and he be lieved that it was one, which every good, every reflecting, every honest, and every patriotic man ought to support. If the motion of his Honourable Friend the Member for Sheffield could be framed so as not to impede this measure he should give it his support; but if it should have the effect of impeding this measure, he should feel it his duty to vote against it. Lord JOCELYN said he was aware that his Noble Friend who had lately spoken, spoke the sentiments of a large portion of the Irish Protestants, and that he had spoken the sentiments of a body of men who from his (Lord. Jocelyn's) earliest youth be had been taught to respect. If any stranger had en tered that House during his Noble Friend's speech, and who had been unaware of the subject under discussion, he might have been led to believe that the measure which was under discus sion was one for the abolition of the Irish Church, if not for the destruction of the Protestant religion in Ireland. He (Lord Jocelyn) looked upon this measure in no such light. He looked upon this measure as a measure of justice and true policy. He felt some difficulty in addressing the House in a debate which had lasted upwards of four nights, for he felt that every argument had been put for ward both in support of, and in opposition to the measure. But he felt, at the same time, that in the position in which he was placed in Ireland, and considering those with whom he was connected, he was called upon to 6 state the grounds upon which he gave his warm and cordial support to the measure which had been proposed by his Right Hon. Friend. His supporting this measure was' not incon sistent with his previous course. The very first vote which he had given in that House, and the first speech which he bad addressed to it, were in support of the grant to Maynooth. Hon. Gentlemen had taxed his Right Hon. Friend, with whom he had the honour of acting, of changing his principles on this Bill. Rut it was an extraordinary fact, that during the whole course of this debate, not a single expression of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Go vernment had been brought forward in proof of this asser tion. When his Right Hon. Friend came into office, he declared that he felt Ireland would be his greatest difficulty. He subsequently declared that it was his intention to con duct the Government of the country firmly but justly, and in a spirit of conciliation.—( Hear.) A short time after his accession to office an agitation broke forth in Ireland, which was likely to lead to a dismemberment of the empire, and his Right Hon. Friend, without having recoarse to any new measure for the suppression of that agitation, effectually put it down by the existing law. That agitation having been put down, his Right Hon. Friend in order to keep his pro mise of conciliation which he had made, brought forward the present measure.—( Hear, hear.) For himself, even if he had not long ago formed his opinion on the merits of this measure, the arguments which he bad heard during the present debate would have led him to the conclusion to which he had already arrived as to its justice and policy. He would appeal to any person connected with Ireland—he would appeal to his Noble Friend the Member for Bandon, whether the political evils of Ireland might not be traced to their religious prejudices.? He therefore thought it a wise and sound policy to endeavour to connect the people to the State by the ties of gratitude. Seeing that there were seven millions of Roman Catholics in Ireland, that their priesthood had the greatest influence over them, whether for evil or good, it appeared to him to be sound policy to show that they sympathised with their wants by im proving the condition of those upon whom the people of Ire land looked with so much respect.—( Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Member for Newcastle had not commenced his speech by saying that he was opposed to the measure of his Right Hon. Friend, he (Lord Jocelyn) would be led to believe that he was a supporter of the measure, for his arguments were rather in favour of it. He admitted that there was a certain degree of compact, that there was no new principle involved, for the principle was admitted in reference to their policy to wards the Roman Catholics. With regard to the analogy which the Hon. Gentleman drew from the conduct of Prussia, he did not thick that it applied, for the people of this country would not submit to have their children educated by the State. But with respect to the system of ecclesiastical education, he did not think the Hon. Gentleman would contend that it was different in Prussia from what it was in Maynooth. With regard to the brilliant speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, he thought the Right Hon. Gen tleman had no foundation in justice for his taunts upon his Right Hon. Friend, for he would , appeal to th a t Ri g h t Hun. Gentleman himself, or to the Nole Lord the Member for London, whether he considered himself responsible for the opinions of his followers —for instance, the opinion which were promulgated at the Corn Exchange. He would give his cor dial support to the measure, because he believed it was just, and that it introduced no new principle, and that the Roman Catholic priesthood were in want of the means of education. He had been in Maynooth two years ago, and he could confirm the statement which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend. He felt that those who had been brought up in that institution, as they were brought up, could not have any strong feelings of attachment for a State which left them in such a condition. He believed the religion which he himself pro fessed was the true one, and he felt such confidence in its truth that he had no fears of an additional grant to Maynooth doing any injury to that religion, whmileehetrseulsy thante trusted it theywo hduldaleabdeetno the happy result of heretofore, the Protestants and the Roman Catholics of Ire land.—( Hoar, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT said he was anxious to say a few words on this question, because the principle on which he shouli give his vote had not et been fully stated to the House, and also be. celibacy. He wished also to deny that it was the precursor to an endowment. He did no', however, believe that the ano maly of a State Church for the tenth-part of the people of Ireland could be long endured. It should be put an end to by the Government in some way; and, whether it was by the voluntary system, or by reconciling the people of Ireland to the continued existence of it by endowing that which should be called the national Church, he did not see how that endowment was hastened by this grant. It. would be worth while to analyse the grounds on which the opposition rested, the elements of which would be found not only to be heterogeneous, but absolutely conflicting with one another. The Nun-conformist petitioners concur in the opposition to the grant. beeheise they thought it was infringing the rights of conscience to grant any sum of money to another Church, the tenets of which they did not believe, and because it would inflict a greater wrong on them than any other class of Pro testants. But what did the Protestants say ? That it would be endangering the establishment. One party opposed because it would uphold the Irish Church, and the others because it would tend to subvert the Irish Church. It could not be true that the same measure would have opposite effects at the same time. He did not believe that it would tend to subvert the Church of Ireland, nor did lie think that that was its intention, and he, as a Protestant himself, would say that opposition from that quarter was unbecoming and ungenerous. The non conformists, if they believed that this may lead to an en • dowment of the Roman Catholic Church. were consistent, but he should like to know upon what tenable ground of prin ciple or justice the members of the Established Church of Ireland could object. It could not be because it was an en dowment. Could they object upon the ground that the Church of Rome entertains and disseminates erroneous doc trines? No ; the Protestant Church could not take up that ground. No Church that was built absolutely upon the right of private judgment can set up such a claim, becau.e the very admission of the right of private judgment implied that the very Church that asserts such a claim admits, in allowing the right of private judgment, that it may be wrong, and that its opponents may be right. As a member of that Church, he would aver that it must be conceded that the Protestant Church Establishment was anomalous, in so much as it was not to be defended by ecclesiastical reasons, but by abstract princi ples, and merely upon the ground of expediency. Upon these grounds he would ask, was it becomin g in the members of the Church of England to come forwa r d to oppose any provision for the religious instruction of their Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen? The great balk of the Irish people were not to be looked upon as Dissenters. Ireland was not a case where the people had seceded from the Church. but where, by brute force, the Church had been thrust upon the people. Endowment was not the question before them, it was a grant for educational purposes, and upon that ground he would support the measure ; and he implored the people of England, upon every ground of justice, generosity, and pru dence, so to eertsi:ler the rent ter before them. He did not agree with the Right lion. Baronet as to the sources from whence the money was to come ; he would support the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, that it should be paid by Ireland. And he felt that, even if his Honourable Friend failed in his motion, he would, nevertheless, support the grant. This was the only measure which could gain for them the affections of the Irish people, and he would not take upon himself the responsibility of opposing it. He would ask those who opposed the measure, were they prepared to leave Ireland in its present state—a state in which they retained one portion of their empire as if it were an enemy's country, by artillery and the bayonet.—( Hear, hear.) And if they were not prepared to leave her as she was, what measures were they competent to pass, by which they meant to attach to this country the affections of the people of Ireland; and it was essential that they should be attached to this country. With that country hostile, England would not be safe for a day, and they would lose that opinion of their strength in other countries which would be the best substitute for its existence. He did not think that it was too much to say that ev •ry petition epposed to that grant which was laid on that table would have the effect of materially retarding those who were negotiating even on the very shores of the Pacific. He could not, of course, approve of the whole policy of the Right Hon. Barone' who proposed the measure, and of course he regretted the per versity of fortune that compelled him and others under the guidance of one who appeared to concede to fear that which he refused to justice. If the Hon. Baronet had net acted under motives of a higher nature which he attributed to him, if he brought forward this measure merely through necessity, he (Sir William Clay) was yet of opinion that he acted right, and that on that occasion he would have his cordial snpport. He was bound to say that if they who opposed this grant were prepared to afford a double impulse to the repeal agitation, and to renewed declamation, rather than give a few paltry thousand pounds to the education of the Irish priests, then let them throw out the measure, and touch the Irish on that point in which they were most sensitive, by telling them that they were to expect no redress from the British people or from the British House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) Let them see the use already made by Mr. O'Connell of the spirit which had been manifested in London against this grant. If the Bill were thrown out he should scarcely know how to blame—enemy as he was to the repeal cause—a renewed agitation of the repeal ; he should scarcely know how to hope for the time when a real union could exist ; and for himself he should almost despair-of ever seeing the two countries reconciled. Lord BERNARD said that, representing as he did a large constituency, and considering the corrupt state of the registries of Ireland, and recollecting the intimidation that was used and encouraged by the priests at the last election, he felt he was not warranted in expressing any other opinions than those he was about to exhibit on the present occasion. However painful it might be to himself, he was coming forward to express an opinion in direct opposition to that Government to which he was, on other questions, enabled to give his support. He considered that en this question mere personal feeling should be as dust in the balance. Before he entered into this question, ha would. call the attention of the House to one speech which was de livered yesterday evening —it was delivered by the Hon. Mem ber for Cork, who s t a t e d th a t if H on. Members knew the state of education in Ireland, they would have known that one of the boons which were most zealously sought for was, that Trinity College should be thrown open to all classes of her Majesty's subjects. Now, why did he quote that particular part of the Hon. Mem ber's speech ? It was for this reason —because that Hon. . . Member might be looked upon as an authority in all matters relating to the education of Roman Catholics in Ireland ; and because it would appear by the Hon. Member's speech that the Roman Catholics of Ireland were ready to abandon not only the education of the middle cla=ses, but to make the most im portant and extraordinary sacrifices rather than yield up their right to political agitation, or the power of aiming another blow at the University of Dublin. But now let him ( Lord Bernard) state why it was that he opposed the present measure of the Government. It was for this reason amongst others— that he had always opposed the grant to Maynooth, and he had yet to learn why he should not do so now. He would ask, was he hound by any compact, or fettered by any tie ? He denied that he was ; and he defied any Hon. Mem • ber in the House to prove the contrary. Let him ask fur ther, was he bound to vote fur the grant of a sum of money for the support of a religion he did not believe to be true, which vote would, in fact, a.nount to a vote for the suppression of a reli gion which he did believe to be true ? Now, let him call to mind one of the alleged grounds of this compact. He would undertake to show that it was, in fact, no compact at all; and in doing so he would not weary the House by referring to the speeches of Lord-Lieutenants of Ireland in former days, for this reason—that they did not differ much from the speeches he had heard delivered in that House. But let him cad the attention of the House to the fact, that in the year 1795, this grant to the Roman Catholic College of Maynooth was made solely for this reason, that the Roman Catholic priests had, up to that time, been in the habit of re ceiving their education in continental countries, where they imbibed feelings and opinions not consonant with the princi ples of English Government and English feeling ; and also be • cause at about that time Woulfe Tone and others of his party were about to establish a democratic seminary for the education of the Roman Catholic priests. There was a pamph let published at that time by a member of that party, which, amongst other statements, contained one to this effect:—That " it would be much better for the Government to educate the clergy of the Roman Catholic reli. gion at home, than to send them abroad; and that, therefore, it would be expedient to give this grant, and that for the pre sent, at least, it would look plausible." But in an other part of the same work it was stated that " it never could have been contemplated to continue such a sum for the mere purpose of educating the Romish youth of Ireland, and when such a proposition was proposed to the Legislature, a considerable number of Members left the House." This was a statement that was made in the year 1799. Let him now remind the House of statements that had been made upon this same subject at a later period by Hon. Members, in what was called the Protestant House of Lords, and the Protestant House of Commons ; and the votes that had been given in favour of this grant, which it was well known had never been intended to continue for a longer period than twenty years. The Hon. Member for Newark had called the attention of the House to the speech of Mr. Percival in confirmation of the grant who, the Hon. Member con tended, had spoken in confirmation of the grant and that it should be maintained ; but the Hon. Member had forgotten that Mr. Percival had made that speech at a time when the twenty years had not yet expired ; and, therefore, that argument could not apply.-4 Hear, hear.) Another speech had been alluded to as made by an Hon. Member pro • posing that this grant should be increased to 13,0001. That was in the year 1817 ; but in the meantime, before that preposi tion could be carried out or considered, the Government were dissolved and a new Government came in; and by that Go vernment the grant was again renewed for the usual sum. But it was not then understood that it was to be compulsive, for if it were to be looked upon in the light of an unwr►tten compact, and binding as such, why should it not apply with equal force to the Charter Schools of Ireland.—( Hear, hear. ) Why, on the other hand, should the Government of the country take away from the Established Church in Ireland, revenues to the amount of 75,000/. per annum, by the suppression of certain bishoprics in that country.—( Hear, hear.) Upon a late occasion he ( Lord Bernard) presented a petition from the grand jury of the county of Cork—one of the most im portant bodies in Ireland—praying that the Legislature might extend the mine protection to Catholics as to Protestants in regard to education, and that petition was signed by four Roman Catholic gentlemen. —( Hear, hear.) He could bring forward many other arguments, to show how dangerous it would be to carry out the establishment of this principle ; but he would content himself with those he had already given, and apply himself to another branch of the subject. Now let him ask, were there no reasons stated before the House, why this grant should not be withdrawn? Was it not notorious that the doctrines taught in the College of Maynooth were such as weae not those that should be encouraged by the British Government? Was it not well known that the Ro man Catholic priests were the leaders of the agitation that had spread all over Irel a nd about two years ago? The great public meetings that then took place were led on by the Roman Catholic priests; and, therefore, those clergymen must either have approved of these meetings being held, or they had not the power to restrain the people from attending them. And if, on the one hand , the Roman Catholic priests were the leaders of those meetings, then would the House be holding out a bonus for the promotion of that agita•ion ; or, on the other, the Go vernment should not assist in aidin g the promotion of a reli gious persuasion in Irela n d that led to such results. —( Hear, hear. ) He would say, also, that he woutd oppose this motion on religious grounds, though he was aware of the difficulty and danger of introducing such a topic in that assembly. Yet let him remind the House that they had been told that if this measure should not pass it would have the effect of increasing the repeal agitation. He denied that such would he the effect ; on the contrary, his opinion was that if this grant were agreed to they would have concession after concession demanded and proposed. The grant would, undoubtedly, have the effect of endangering the Estab lished Church in Ireland; and if so, let him ask how long would it be before it would have the same effect in this country? —( Hear, hear.) Let the House observe how dangerous it was to spend the public money in support of the Catholic religion in Ireland at this moment, wilen it was a well-known fact that large bodies of those who professed that religion doubled the truth of it, and were about to abandon it ; and, therefore, let him ask, was this II ,use to come forward, and, under those eir• cumstanses, stop the progress of such a reformation in that country? As to the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, he ( Lord Bernard) would not anticipate the result upon the dis cussion of it, but he would make a remark or two on the speech delivered by the Honourable Member for Montrose, last night. That Honourable Member stated that a large sum had been placed at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical Com missioners for the purposes of the Protestant Church in Ireland ; but he (Lord Bernard) begged to say that nothing could be more totally unfounded. The fact was so much the contrary, that the Protettant Church in Ireland at that moment was very it was based upon a principle and regulated by conduct far dif ferent from that which had been pursued with reference to the Catholic Church of Er gland—( Hear, hear)—not to the Church of England in this country alone, but in Canada, in Ireland, in India, in Australia, and, above all, in Wales.—(Loud cheers.) Yes, the English Church did feel herself aggrieved, insuited, and wronged—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—and although he did not hope that this grant would Protests.ntise Ireland, he was not altogether sure that he might not draw an augury from this magnanimity towards Maynooth and the Church of Rome of a speedy recurrence to a fairer mode of action, and a more generous conduct towards the Church of England—( Hear, hear)—and whilst disposed to look upon it as the exhibition of the olive branch to the Homan Catholic Church of Ireland, he was also happy to view it a- the dawn of that happy day—the advent of confi dence and peace to the English Church.—(Cheers.) He voted for that grant, because he did not conceive himself called upon as a Churchman to oppose it. He voted for it. because he recognised it as the type o f an h ones t i n t en ti on t o do a measure of justice towards the Roman Catholics of Ireland, whom the people of this country had so long oppressed and injured, and because he thought it might tend, however remotely, to accelerate the advent of that happy day when, in the mutual confession of their fully and their pride, and with tears of sorrow and of joy, they should kneel down before the common altars of their common faith—( Hear, hear )—a con summation which, he believed, could alone avail to Christianise our enormous and expending empire of commerce and manu facture—a consummation which, he believed, could alone avail to give to labour its just reward, to heal the sores and bind up the bleeding wounds of Ireland, and to render England again what she was once, the queen of the nations, towering aloft amid the empires of the world, striking her roots down deep and wide into the richest memories of the past, and spreading her fruitful branches to the measureless expanse of an unseen futurity.—( Loud cheers. ) Mr. RUTHERFORD, who could scarcely be heard in the gallery, in consequence of the noise prevailing at the bar and in the body of the House, was understood to say that he could not think of giving a silent vote upon a subject like the pre sent, for whether he looked to tke history of Ireland or to the original institution of the College of Maynooth, in every aspect he found that this measure was imperatively called for. This Bill was an earnest to Ireland that she would now reap the fruits of her union with this country—a union which might be supposed, if they looked merely to the past, to have been en tered into for the mere purposes of oppression and degradation, but which now, he trusted, would be used for nobler pur poses. Ile might not please his constituents by the vote he intended to give on this subject, but minor considerations must give way before the performance of his duty. He should, therefore, support the second readitg of the measure. Mr. SMY remember to have read, Sir, a remark made by the Right Hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, when he proposed a measure somewhat analogous to this—l mean when he brought forward the Catholic Reliaf Bill—when he stated, that one of the reasons which induced him to anticipate that the measure must, sooner or later, be car ried, was the fact that all the young men of the day who had recently come from the universities were in favour of Catholic emancipation. I think it rather strange that in the course of these debates, and in the Right lion. Gentleman's own Go vernment, we may remark the same distinctions. We see the Right Hon. Gentleman, who has upon this occasion pur sued a liberal, a wise, and a conciliatory course, followed in that liberal, and wise, and conciliatory course by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War ( Mr. S. Herbert), and by my Noble Friend who has addressed the House this even ing. the Member for Lynn ( Lord Jocelyn), whilst at the same time we find the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, still so true to his ancient reminiscences, that he cannot speak of the Roman Catholic priests, even in bringing in a measure of grace and of concession, without say ing that the education at Maynooth was as disgraceful to the country which affords the means of sustaining this education as it was degrading to the priests who receive it ; and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland speaks of the measure as an act of charity.—( Hear, hear.) Now, feeling strongly that the subject is most important, it is on no such grounds that I can bring myself to support it. I remember that, two years ago, as has been stated by my Noble Friend, I, in common with him, anticipated the Right Hon. Gentleman's suggestion. Unfortunately my watch was upon this, as upon other occasions, five minutes too fast. And I need not tell the House that there is a considerable difference between going before or going in company with the Right Hon. Gentleman. —(Cheers.) I remember upon that occasion to have incurred much odium and some misconstruction from those who believed, with too fond a credulity, that " concession had reached its utmost limit”—(Cheers)—and I particularly remember an attack of the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool (Lord Sandon)—and I can assure the Noble Lord I do not remember it for its severity—upon the rashness and forwardness of youth. I think I might now retort upon the rashness and forwardness of riper age, on the proverbial extravagance of young conver sions, and protest against the principle of restitution, which, if the Noble Lord means it, he ought to vote against this grant as an absurdity ; and which, if he do not mean it, is a wanton in sult of the Member for Liverpool against and to the Irish Pro testant Establishment. But the Noble Lord is an hereditary waverer.—(Cheers.) However, if I was a worse courtier than the Noble Lord, I was a better judge. I never doubted that the Right Hon. Gentleman, who has been characterised by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Shef field as the great doer of his age—(Laughter)—as he had done Emancipation so would he do Maynooth.—(Cheers.) I was not deceived by the extreme Protestantism of the Right Hon. Gentleman's adolescence--he was then the Member for the University of Oxford. Nor am I among those who believe that the Right Honourable Gentleman is the enemy of Ireland; although it is susceptible of some doubt whether Ireland is not the enemy of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He treats it so considerately, so caressingly—almost as caressingly as if it was an opposition ; he carries all the measures that it wants, and among them none was ever wiser, or juster, or more necessary than the present Bill. And among the many contrasts which the Right Hon. Gentleman's long career affords, there is none which history will record more favourably than the contrast between Mr. Secretary Peel and Sir Robert Peel, the Prime Minister of England.—(Hear, hear.) The young and pro scribing partisan has become the clement and beneficent ruler —the young Octavius of intolerance is merged in the Augustus of conciliation and of grace.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman may in this matter rely on the sincerity of my con gratulations, because I know full well how much they will cost me. I know full well what odium I incurred by my sugges tions in a former year among an archiepiscopal constitu ency not to be well aware that 1 shall again be at issue with that same archiepiscopal constituency. But, although I prefer my own convictions to theirs in this matter, I am not surprised that theirs are so strong, considering the pains that have been taken to excite them.—( Hear, hear.) The pamphlets, the tracts, the speeches, the itinerant lec turers trading on their own imaginative crapulence : even a Member of this House has condescended to string together a bead-roll of indecencies—a rosary of abominations. Suppose the Irish were to retaliate ; suppose they were to compile a cento from the class-books of our own colleges and schools; suppose you take the celebrated line of Euripides_ " My tongue has sworn it, b u t m y m i n d is unsworn." —(Cheers.) Suppose we take a passage from Terence, an ode of Catullus about Mamurra, a sentiment from the sympo sium of Plato, or a morality of Paley, it would be quite as easy, 1 suspect, to alarm the Wesleyans and affright the Inde pendents.—(Laughter.) Away, then, with this pharisaical hypocrisy, which objects to books of examination, catecheti cally distributed, but which flings its Lemprieres broadcast among children ; which strains at the calendar, but swallows the mythology.—(Loud cheers.) But whilst the means are thus glaringly unfair, I am far from underrating their effects. I believe it would be as easy now to raise the No- Popery cry as it was in 1807, or 1827, or 1829. Would that it might be under the control of such as the Noble Lord the Member for the county of Dorset (Lord Ashley), whose speech of this evening was characterised by that great ability, and that grave sense of responsibility, which always mark the speeches of the Noble Lord; but this will not be. Would also that these No-Popery enthusiasts—and Ido not mean there are any enthusiasts in this House—( A laugh)—would, in their calmer hour, if they ever have one, look back for the last 200 years, and pass in review all the men they have be lieved in from Titus Oates down to Lord George Gordon— (Cheers) —and from Lord George Gordon down to our own time ; and then I think they would agree with me, that all the superstition is not all upon one side. If at the same time they should take a retrospective glance at their literature, their architecture, and their taste, I think they will be less satisfied than they now are that they, and they alone, are the providen tial instruments of England's greatness.—( Hear.) They will at any rate find out that they have always been, as they always will be, betrayed by their own leaders. The moment a great Protestant champion enters this Heuse, still flushed with the plaudits of Exeter-hall, with the doxology perhaps still wring ing in his ears, determined to carry all before him, somehow or other I observe common sense acts upon him as religion acts upon a Dervish • he goes round—( G rea t c h eers an d l aug ht er ) —he kicks a little, but still he goes round ; it is a Parliamen tary polka, now practising by the whole of that bench, from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cam bridge down to the Hon. Member for the county of Selkirk. —( Renewed laughter.) And this it is, this going round of the great Protestant champions, which renders this " No-Popery" agitation, notwithstanding all its zeal and all its respectabi lity —to my mind synonyms—(Hear)—despite all its numbers, null and ineffieient. But of late years another opposition has arisen to this grant, which, for want of a better name, I will call the " Anglican opposition." This party was weak in the House, but it was strong in dialectitians, strong in the Uni versities, strong among young men ; and it was supposed, up to Friday last, to have been represented by the Right Hon. Gentleman my Right Hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Gladstone) ; and it also claimed illustration from his re tirement from office : " De civitate decedere malait quam de sententia." He left the Cabinet, but he kept his theory.— (Cheers.) And now does any Hon. Gentleman believe the Right Hon. Gentleman has really abandoned his theory ? Abandoned his theory—yes, Sir—as a certain society abandons a country to return to it on the first convenient opportunity. In that cloud of variegated phraseology, in which he as usual the other night wrapped and shrouded his mysterious divinity— (Cheers )—there was only one phrase which was intelligible to vulgar mortals like myself. He said, that notwithstanding his most cherished convictions, he would vote in favour of this Bill. So then it is most clear that his most cherished convictions and his votes are at issue. But about the mere vulgarity of voters, the Right Hon. Gentleman cares li v t n tle e for upon this very question he has voted all ways. d first against, then in favour of the grant; he then went e out t then of office because the grant was to be increas ed ; the measure involving the increased grant came to a first read ing—he did not vote at all; we are now it. a Any s is ec a o n n y d reading ; he is prepared to vote in favour of Hon. Gentleman—is the Right Hon. an ill h n nn ot ae fi lf n — d reaGn w himself— quite sure, that upon the third dig Gentleman equally good reasons for voting . against the measure?— ( Laughter and cheers.) But, with regard to " his most cherished feelings," I must be permitted to say one word, and that is, that these feelings are cherished, not by himself alone, but by many conv erts whom he has convinced, and by many fanatics, whose reason his eloquence has helped t o fascinate. And what is their position ? What is the princi ple laid down by them? It is an old enemy with a new face ; it is the worst principle of absolutism, disguised in the worst l angu age of the Jesuits; it is the principle of Alva and the language of Escobar: It begins in a fiction, that because the State has once placed its affiance to a particular system, it is bound to perpetuate that system, to the exclusion of all others to all time. This, to be true, should be universally true ; and if it were to prevail at this moment in this country, we should still have the Ptolemaic system i n our observatories , and Sir Isaac Newton might only b e k nown somewhat as the Right Hon. Gentleman may be known—as a crotchety theologian, but a capital master o f t h e Mi nt.—( Laughter.) But ,. if this , principle begins i n fiction, it ends in p a i ns and penalt!es ; if it begins in s o phi stry, i t ends in persecution ; itis, in one word, the old, v i c i ous, cruel, effete principle of uniformity.— (Cheers.) Si r , w h et h er the Right Hon. Gentleman argued . — against or in favour of this principle I think his position is equally untenable.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentle man, as an author, wrote in favour of the principle of uni formity; but the argument made use of by the First Lord of the Treasury in the introduction of this measure was unan swerable. That argument, characterised by an Hon. Member as " the colonial argument," was this—that the State has, for 150 years endowed Presbyterianism in Scotland, paid Presbyterianism in Ireland, and acted, as we heard last night from an Honourable Member (Mr. Hume), throughout the whole of our vast peninsula of India, and else where in our dependencies. But the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone), or' rather the Right Hon. Author, had a vision of his own ; he was dazzled by the recollection of eleven years in our history, when, to use his own phraseology, many gentlemen of " the Church had exclusive possession of the pre- t , %Te rm 'Ring cinets of Parliament ." And when do yos suppose Were thistle eleven years? In the reign of Queen Elizabseti4iin the reifies• - of Queen Ann ?—ln ,the reign of that consul ... George 111., of whom we have heard se much ?-eet_ ',- Not so; but in the reign of Charles 11., at that haPp ; r_tri,.e when England was the minion and hireling of France F Ireland was treated as a conquest and the Irish as saiages;• when a very energetic member of the very energetic family a, Grahams was sabreing Cameronians , and dragooning Scotland into episcopacy. —(Cheers, and laughter.) These were the anni mirabiles of the Right Hon. Gentleman ; 1 am sure the Right Hon. Horne Secretary will not wish for their recurrence. But the Right Hun. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) on Friday last ad vanced his reasons in favour of this measure ; and I must say, if ever a good cause was defended by a had apology it was upon that occasion, because the Right Hon. Gentleman again came forward with the old principle of "a compact and apledee." A pledge ! And what was Catholic emancipation . What was the abolition of ten bishoprics in Ireland? What the Charitable Bequests Bill the other day ?—( Hear.) What ? You will not hear the trumpet-tongue of the Legislature, year after year, and session after session, proclaiming toleration but you pretend to be guided by the whisper of a Minister, and the hear-say of an engagement as old as the eighteenth century 1 . —( Laughter, and cheers.) But, upon these refinements, I would fain address the Right Hon. Gentleman in languoge made use of by a great trade Minister to a great theologian with a theory.—( A laugh.) Colbert said to Bossuet—when he was urging some of those arguments which eventually ended in the revocation of the edict of Nantes—" All this belongs to your conscience of the Sorbonne ; there is another conscience within you—let that speak." So now I would fain say to the Right Hon. Gentleman—" All this belongs to your conscience of Oxford • there is another conscience within you—let that speak."—(Loud sheers.) It will tell the Right Honourable Gentleman to put things before him more broadly and to the purpose ; it will tell him that an ardent and a susceptible people, whose alliance with their priesthood was solemnised in a time of tribulation and misfortune, is not to be divorced from them in the first dawn of a happier eraese( Hear, hear.) Not open violence— not " the vicious perfection: of the law—not arms Bills, not coercion Bills, not laws of ntortmain by which you harassed them, not cy-pres constructions by which you robbed them — none of these things have been able to put asunder " those whom persecution " had joined together.' —( Cheers.) And Sir, this more insidious design will also fail, which is lisping with all the insolent euphuism of an old proprietary, that you will disarm the Irish priest by making bin: a gentleman.-- ( Renewed cheers.) A gentleman ! that .s, something more of an abbe, and something less of a cure—something more of a chaplain, and something less of a priest—one: who will look more to the patron, and care less for the poor; in a word, "a man of the world," but. net of the next world.—; Cheers. ) This design to It also fail; or, it it succeed, I pity yous . short. sightedness. Elevate the Irish priest from the sphe. - e in which he moves, and acts , , and has his useful being, and destroy his influence. It is because he is of the commons theee he lead , the commons —( Hear.) I know that, upon this matter I am at issue with nearly the whole of the house—(No, no) — but I know that a greater legislator (with ail respect be it said) than any in this House—that that Napoleoa, of whom it will be said that not the least of his many miracles was that he gave back Christianity to France—has recorded his opinion that a priesthood for the people should be of the people.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Besides, Sir, I have myself seen the prelacy of Ireland. It was on the day of a great solemnity at Maynooth. Plain men they were, poor men ; the same euphuism might brand them as vulgar men. 'there was about them none of that splendour and array for which the Church of Rome is so rebuked ; no pomp, no repre sentation. But lam wrong ; there was representation ; but it was not the representation of so many thousands a year, but of so many millions of souls.—( Hear, hear.) It is these men that the Hight Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) makes his friends. They will remember that, notwithstanding a powerful opposition, he brought forward a measure a conciliation with out restriction and without conditions.—(Cti.eers.) And in that hour of emergency and crisis, which those Who look at nations and not at Cabinets know cannot be distant— in that hour of emergency and crisis, when your entente cordiale with France shall fail you (as it surely will fail you), you will ho .e an entente cordiale with Ireland to supply its place.—(Losot cheers.) In that day, when the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) shall be called upon to rally round him the energies of this mighty empire—for he alone, notwithstanding all this temporary clamour, represents its acquirements—(Cheers)-- he will be able to adopt to the enemies of England, be they at Washington, or be they at Paris, the solemn and beautiful lan guage of the Noble Lord the Member for London,—" Our Queen reigns over a united people."—( Continued cheering.) Mr. REDINGTON, as an Irish- Member, and a Roman Catholic, wished to express his opinion, which interested the religion which he professed. Whatever turn the debate may the question would be of the greatest importance to Ireland. As an Irish Roman Catholic, he wished to express his gratification on account of the temper, tone, and manner in which this question bad been discussed. The eloquent Mem ber for Canterbury, and the Noble Lord the Member for Newark, had made speeches which ought to be models to the people of this country ; they would have the effect of recon ciling two nations which, if they were to be united, ought to be united in every sense of the word. He heard, at the same time, opinions which ought not to weigh in that assembly on the measures which were now before them. He would now turn to the question that had been repeatedly put, namely—Why did not the Catholic people of Ireland en dow their College themselves ? And in answer to that he would ask another question, namely—ln what position were the Ca tholics of Ireland left in the year 1795 ? The Catholics had been up to that time banished from their country, and left without religious places of worship—without property—without. anything. Pitt established the College of Maynooth in 1795, but up to that time, all the institutions of the Irish Catholics having been abolished, it was scarcely to be hoped that May. nooth should be the first to engage their attention. Let it be recollected, that the Catholics of Ireland had' supported the Colleges of Armagh, of Tuant, of Wexford, and many others, of the wealth and usefulness of which they had been twice plundered, }et had twice endowed.—(Cheer;.) He had heard it said that the people of Ireland were idolators, but he would pass over that, as unworthy of notice ' • neither would he stop to answer the a cc u sa ti on th a t Roman Catholics worshipped the Virgin Mary, for in doing so he would be attempting to defend a faith that had endured, unchanged, for eighteen centuries. But this he would say, that if the English Government were anxious to have the union of the two countries as a real union of Great Britain and Ireland, they would treat Ireland with common justice. He had heard much said about the voluntary prin. ciple—he had great respect for those who held that opinion, for he would say there was more danger in paying no religion than in paying one. But he would say the English Govern ment should adopt the plan of continental countries, and ply all instead of Haying but one.—( Hear, hear.) He felt that the Right Him. Baronet had generously come forward with respect to this measure. But this was not the first time that the Right Hon. Ihronet had bowed to a moral necessity which he could not conf rout. He (Mr. Redington) remembered the time when Members of his persuasion were first allowed to enter that House. At that time the Right Honourable Baronet bowed to a moral necessity which he could not controut. He (Mr. Redington) believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman had yet many snore necessities to bow to. Although the Right Hon. Baronet had come forward in a generous manner, this measure could only be looked upon as a triumph of those prin ciples which had always been so consistently supported by the Noble Lord the Member for London. He (Mr. Redington) could not forget old friends for those who offered new favours. The Noble Lord and his Colleagues had for many years supported conciliation to Ire land; and he (Mr. Redington) felt that his humble tribute was justly due to the Noble Lord. Mr. C. BRUCE moved the adjournment of the debate. Colonel Sibthorp rose at the same time, and there were loud cries for the lion. and Gallant Gentleman. Mr. C. BRUCE said he did not wish his motion to stand in the eay of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman if he wished to prolong the debate. Colonel SIBTHORP—I rise, Sir, to move the adjournment of the debate, as I do not intend to speak until the Hon. Mem ber for Cork (Mr. Murphy) is present.—( Laughter. ) The debate was then adjourned. Sir R. PEEL said he hoped the notices of motion for to morrow (this day) would be disposed of in the same way as those of 'fuesday, in order to allow the adjourned debate to proceed. Mr. T. DUN COM BE consented to postpone his motion re specting the Board of Trade until Monday. Mr. WYSE also consented to postpone a motion which be had on the paper. The Auction Duties Bill and the Sugar (Excise Duties) Bill, were severally read a third time and passed. The Museums of Art Bill passed through Committee pro form; • The following Members were appointed as the Select Com mittee on Smoke Prevention :—Mr. Mackinnon, Mr. Beckett, Viscount Newry, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. Hawes, the Earl of Lincoln, Mr. Octavius Duncombe, Lord Francis Egerton, Mr. William Henry Bodkin, Mr. Evart, Mr. Borthwick, Mr. Hindley, Mr. Protheroe, Mr. Ricardo, and Mr. W. Williams.' Colonel SIBTHORP renewed his motion for the printing of the number of petitions against the Maynooth grant, with the number of signatures attached to them,_ but there being no seconder, the motion fell to the ground. The Hon. Member gave notice that he would move it to-morrow. The House then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'Clock. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. NEWMARKET. WEDNESDAY. NEW MATCHES. FlZlDAY.—Minotaur, Bst 101 b, agst Pine Apple, Bst Ilh. First half of Ab.M. 100, h ft.—These horsesare also matched for the next meeting, at the same weights, to run D.M. The Ugly Buck is scratched for the Port. WEDNESDAY'S RACES. The weather has at length taken a favourable turn, and, although still unseasonably cold, has enabled a select, busi ness-like assemblage to enjoy a moderate day's sport, without the drawbacks that so completely neutralised the attractions of the more important races decided on the first and second days of the meeting. In order to enable several Honourable Members, who have paid us flying visits, to get back to town in time for the division on the Maynoot.h grant, the races were arranged to commence at half-past one, and finish at three. The first on the card was— A — inatch for 200 sovs. h ft. T.Y.C. Duke of Bedford's Minotaur, 5 yr, Bst 101 b (Robinson), beat Lord Exeter's Celia, 6 yis, Bst 6lb (W. Boyce). 5t04 on Minotaur. Won by four lengths. Subscription Plate of 50f. for 3 yrs old, 7st ; 4 yrs, Bst 71b; 5 yrs, 9st; 6 yrs, and aged, 9st 21b. T.Y C. Mr. Ilowe's Khorassan, 5 yrs (Chapple) 1 Lord G. Bentincle - u -my- a s All ro ud H t • , 4 yrs .. 2 Mr. Steers' Caroline, 3 yrs 3 The following also ran ;—Lord Exeter's Celia, 6 yrs (W. Boyce), and Lord Albemarle's Delapre, 4 yrs (Whitehouse). Betting, 7 to 4 agst All-round-my. Hat, 3 to 1 agat Celia (taken), 3 to 1 agst Delapre, and 7 to 2 agst Khorassan. All-round-my -Hat and Khorassan laid in front all the way ; the mare leading at a good pace half way up the cords, where she was headed, and atter an iadifierent race was beaten by a length, Caroline a moderate third. Sir \V. \V. Wynn's Stoker, Sat 71b (Mann), beat Lord Huntinglield's fby Muley Moloch, out of Barbelle, Bst 41b. I).M. 100, h ft. 7t04 on the filly. Won easy by a length. The Column Stakes of 50 sovs. each, h ft; for three yrs old colts, Bst 71b; and fillies, Bst 41b. (27 Subs.) Mr. Wreford's Winchelsea, by Camel (J. Howlett) 1 Colonel Peel's Hersey, by Glaucus Lord Exeter's Adrianople The following also started:—Lord Albemarle's Tisiphone, Mr Batson's fby Plenipo out of Acacia, Lord Chesterfield's Javelin (allowed sth), and Lord Miltown's Due au Durras. 2 to 1 on Winchelsea, 4 to 1 agst Javelin, and 8 to 1 agst Due au Durras.—Won in a canter by six lengths. BETTING ON WEDNESDAY EVENING. CHESTER CUP. S to 1 agst Semiseria (taken),4s to I agst The Era t to 1 agst Cataract (taken) 115 to I agst Ould Ireland DERBY. 5 to I agst John Day's Lot 25 to 1 agst Doleful and Tit (6 to I taken freely) mouse (taken) 8 to 1 agst Idas 35 to I agst Laird o' Cockpen 9 to 1 agst Alarm (taken) 16 to 1 agst Weatherbit 40 to 1 agst Doleful (taken) . 40 to 1 agst Jinglepot (taken) T 'RING MEETING. NEWMARKET FIRST 5PR1.....- TuESDAY.—Sir J. Hawley's Comrade, Bst7lb, agst Lord Exeter's Dr. Hale, Bst 41b. First half of Ab. M. 100 It ft. THURSDAY.—Lord Exeter's Wee Pet, Bst 61b, agst Sir J. Hawley's Comrade, 7st 41b. D.M. 200 h ft. ,~ Entle - L .''