The Sun. — London, England, 1850-04-20 00:00:00

TIIE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY avonrinele to ono chamber. That was a piece of infor- the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. To that matien which bad been withheld from the House. How- his obj.ctions were of a totally different nature. His ever conclusive the argument might be, there were objection to that proposition was, that we were not_ at some mysterious wishes of the colonists to be taken for present in a state to com e to any perfect solution of that granted at the declaration of the Government. But question.— (Hear, hear.) He did not think they had, where were these wishes to be found expressed? He either from New South Wales or Van Diemen's Land, (Mr. Adderley) had looked through the papers laid or any of those colonies, information sufficient to enable before the Houle, and he could not find them. Did the them to come to a solution of the question.—(hear, Government assume a degree cf clairvoyance, and pro- hear.) It might be that it was difficult to find persons fees to know by that means the wishes of the colonists? who would give their time to legislative measures in two To demand an agreement on the part of the House was chambers. He was nct able to come to a decision even tantamount to a vote of confidence on the colonial on that part of the subject. In the next place, the ques policy of the Government—what he (Mr. Adderley) tion arose if they had a second elective chamber, which could not, under the circumstances, consent to. He con- was to be some check on the more popular chamber, aidered the kind of information laid before the House how was it to be composed, and what was to be the was not calculated to establish the case of the Govern- qualification of the electors? Were they to be the went. At first it was contained in two books, 1848-49, same electors as those who returned the lower cham and consisted of dispatches. Reading that, however, he ber, or different? When he introduced a 13i11 for the agreed with Sir W. Denison that no man could say the better union and government of the Canadas, he was for colonists objected to two chambers—all that could be some months in correspondence with Lord Sydenhate, gathered from it was that the colonists of New South the then Governor, who consulted persons of various Wales were dreadfully alarmed at the caricature of the kinds and high station, some of them being judges, some British constitution proposed for them. The next piece men who had conducted the administration of the colony, of information given to the House was, the colonists of and he, after long deliberation, was enabled to send a New South Wales had expressed their gratitude to the tolerably perfect sketch of a Bill to introduce upon the Government for the constitution; but it now appeared subject. But in this case the Government had received that, being excessively alarmed, and despairing of any no answer to any proposition of theirs. There fore, if it constitution, they naturally expressed themselves grate- might be wise hereafter to establish such a constitution ful for the concession of a representative body. The as two chambers, they were not now in a condition to next piece of information was a striking one. In the legislate for such a purpose. It was a subject (Stile highest middle of the session, iu the course of the debate on this importance. There were examples in our neighbourhood question, the Government stated that though delay at this time, though perhaps no great attention was paid might be fatal to the measure, still as the House was to them, which showed the importance even of details not sufficiently a cqua i n t e d w ith the subject, had not in such questions. In Belgium and Holland they had read, in short, the dispatches, they had made up their decided on having a second chamber, and that that mind to delay the Bill until fresh information should be second chamber should be composed of persons having laid before Parliament. That information was waited a much higher qualification than the members of for with great anxiety; but when it came it turned out the more popular assembly; but in adopting that quail to be nothing more than a collection of old dispatches fiscation the Belgian Constitution provided that a cer from governors. There was only one new piece in it, tain amount of land-tax should be paid. The taxes on and that was in such a fragmentary form—so filled with land and real property lately introduced in the consti asterisks—as to be almost useless. What the object cf tion of Holland were in the nature of our assessed taxes the Government could be in publishing a collection of and taxes on houses; and the consequence of that dis oid dispatches as fresh information, unless it was to tinction, which might seem a slight one, was, that in one blind the House, he (Mr. Adderley) could not possibly country (Belgium) you had great landowners and a conceive. While that meagre information was all that most conservative chamber; and in the other country — the Government allowed the House, there was a con- he would not say they were not conservative—but men siderable deal of information on the subject from other residing and having large houses in towns, and whose quarters. Judge Terry, who was in this country, and great expenditure took place in towns, and who were who was an individual of great authority, said the tole- therefore a totally different class from tersons in the nists desired to have a constitution with the three second chamber in Belgium; sbowing how important an estates separate. Mr. Speaker Nicholson bad also error might be even in a matter of detail.—(Hear.) He written from the colony to this country, exprea- really did not think the Hon. Baronet the Member fur sing in very strong terms the same opinion ; and Southwark, in dealing with this open question of the Co- Dr. Lang's pamphlet was equally strong on the lonial Reform Association, was endowed with such com subject. Then there was Mr. Lowe's resolu- plete knowledge of the affairs of all these colonies, and tion before the Legislative Council of New the character of the population, either cf the land South Wales, while the leading journals of the colony owners or of the people of the town of Sydney, agreed, in commenting on that resolution, that the only as to be enabled to speak confidently on the subject. It thing wanting was a second chamber. The Noble Lord was said that the constitution proposed by the Hon. had, no doubt, presented a petition of an opposite ten- Barcnet was modelled on the present constitution of this dency before the recess, but of the hundred signatures country. lie observed that one of tte propositions in appended to it, there were not, perhaps, twelve who ad the Hun. Baronet's new constitution was, that if two ever been in New South Wales, the remainder being thirds of the two chambers should agree in asking for colonial agents or individuals indirectly connected with the removal of the governor he was to be removed. the colony. The language of that petition, however, be- That might be called an application of the principles of trayed its origin —it was altogether official in its form. the constitution of England to the colony perhaps, but But the subscribers expressed themselves satisfied with he certainly did not remember to have heard of the so the proposition of the Government; how could they vereign of this country being removed by the resolution answer for the colonists? He would take the name of of a proportion of the Members of the Legislative one at randon—Mr. Enderby, for instance—Mr. En- Council.—(Hear and laughter.) With regard to a no derby was in the South Sea whale fishery, and his ships m n ione council, therefore, it seemed to be a scheme so might, no doubt, ha ve t ouc h e d a t N ew S out h Wales; =Palatable to the colonies, that such an alteration would but that this circumstance should give him a be received with surprise, and its repeal demanded, and right to know the opinions of the colonists he could not, therefore, recommend the Committee to better than he (Mr. Adderley) had the means adopt it. With regard to the second proposition, that of knowing in London, he could not for a moment of the Honourable Baronet the Member for South admit. That, however, was the whole amount of wark, which was much the best alternative, information given by the Government on the subject, and he thought they were not in possession of infor the House was to be called upon on their ipse dinit to mation sufficient to guide them. If, indeed, the favour adopt the plan on the ground that it was satisfactory to able breezes which had brought the intelligence from the people of New South Wales. He (Mr. Adderley) New South Wales and South Australia—(A laugh)— had always felt perfectly certain that the measure could should bring word that the people at large could not not be carried—he did not mean through the House, be- bear the notion of a single chamber that might alter cause he believed the Government could carry an y me a • th e matter; b ut they all seemed to think that, although cure at tine moment—but carried out in the colonies. it might be advisable to have a second chamber in time, lie felt it, because it was impossible of execution; and they would object to a nominee chamber, and the time he had full confidence that the House had only to wait was not arrived when they were able to soy whet their a few clays fur favourable breezes from the colonies, and mind was upon the subject, and what form of second he would be found to be right. News from New South chamber would most conduce to their wishes. If such Wales and New Zealand were hourly expected, but news then were the case, ho asked the Committee not to be from Van Diemen's Land had arrived, and he was led away by the Hon. Member who spoke last, and warranted in stating that the news fully bore think they were endeavouring to do something oppres out his predictions. It appeared clear to him sive to the colonies, but that they would feel that, on the that Sir William Denison would decline to contrary, this was the introduction for the first time of carry the measure into execution in the colony the representative element into these colonies; that of which he was governor —at least sucb, as far as he power was given them to elect their own legislators, could infer, were the tenor of his opinions; and it would which they never had before, thus laying the founda not be the first time th a t a co l on i a l governor h a d re - t i on o f a free constitution, under which he hoped they fused in the same manner. The Government had been might long prosper.—(Cheers.) refused by the Governor of New Zealand, who said it Mr. ANSTEY said the Noble Lord who had just sat would involve the loss of the colony if he attempted to down had so completely removed every difficulty raised carry out the abortion of a constitution which hail been by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark and the passed for it; and doubtless the other governors would Hon. Member for Northampton, that he bad almost do likewise. He called on the Government, therefore, doubted whether he should address any observations to to acknowledge at once that this was the last of a series the Committee. All the propositions r f the lion. Mem of failures in making constitutions for the colonies, and ber were of th e m os t a b s t ract an d i m p rac ti ca bl e ki n d , that it was the fi na l at t empt o f L or d G rey to concoct and his motion would do serious mischief to amend an omnibus constitution, which should sweep down half meats which, but for that, would have come infore the a de z -re colonial constitutions at a time. He thought Committee by this time. He believed that the colonists that every seen should discard the infamous proposition cared nothing about the question of one or two chambers; that, because a vicious constitution was given to one co- he knew that his instructions were to do his best to make lony it should be given to all colonies in the same latitude. the assemblenof representatives areal representative cham- It would be a doublet injustice in this case, which he hoped ben It bad been asserted on both sides of the House that the House would never sanction. Another proposition they were not in possession of the opinions of the cok which the House should lay aside for ever was, that two nists, the fact being that the Bill had been before them such colonies as New South Wales and Van Diemen's two years at the least. The very circumstance of there Land were so completely connected together, that the being no petitions to the House or the Crown—no me arguments in support of the proposition of a constitu- morials to the Minister—afforded the most conclusive lion for one should serve equally well for the other, evidence of the real sentiments of the colonists.—(Hear, The two constitutions presented themselves under two hear.) The only protest came from the nominee coun different aspects—the one as a basis constitu- cif, and he knew that for years past this Legislative tie-n, the other as offering the means for in- Council of South Australia had been, on all important determinate and unlimited adaptation to the questions in which taxation was concerned, opposed to wants of the colonies. The question at issue the declared will of those for whom they legislated. He was not so much a single chamber versus a double, as need only allude to their conduct with respect to the the adoption of the central or municipal principle in project for the endowment of religious establishments in respect of colonial government. The central principle proof of this. Meetings in favour of the Bill had been was that under which the mother country restrained the held in the colonies, and he hoped the Noble Lord power in her own bands, and made the Colonial-office, would not consent to any delay b e y on d w h a t was neces with its veto, its patrcnage, its books, its usele ss di s - sary for the consideration of the various amendments patches, and its dilettante legislation, the be-all and end- now before them. He believed it would be infinitely all of the colonies. The municipal principle was that more difficult for the people of Van Diemen's Land under which the colonists, by the aid of th e re p ro - and S ou th A ustra li a to o b ta i n any reforms if the sentative system, governed themselves in all local amendment of the Hon. Baronet the Member for matters. A singie or double Chamber was only Southwark were to succeed, than if the Bill of the Go the Shibbol e th between these principles. The vernment were to pass in all its integrity. The result Honourabl e Member th en quoted De Lolme to show of that amendment would be the creation of a true that this writsr laid it down as an undeniable proposi- oligarchy, which, when the protecting power of the tion that the solidity of the English Constitution was Crown was withdrawn, would enter into the full fruition owing to the division of legislation of England into two of power, which they would not fail to make lasting and estates. The Government had suggested that there was secure. Besides this, the Hon. Baronet had failed to no union among the colonial reformers in that House on support his proposition by any authority derived from the subject of the composition'of an upper chamber ; but the colonists themselves, f or h e cou ld no t v i ew th e p r i va t e that was not the fact. Ther e was no disagreement on opinions of an individual governor as a colonial the great point that there should be two chambers, and authority, especially when Sir W. Denison himself, that each estate should be separate and independent, be whose able dispatch had been relied on for this purpose cause they desired to establish a Conser va ti ve e l ement in had stated them to be his private opinions, adding - tha; the constitution. To this proposition the Governm en t he could not take upon himself to say that they were was perfectly antagonistic; and he (Mr. Adderley) could universal or general. He was of opinion that the scheme not but feel surprise that the men who some twenty years of two chambers was in itself a bad scheme; that was to ago convulsed the country because a peer or two had the say, it was not so good as one chamber only in colonies nomination to a few seats in Parliament, should now pro- situated like South Australia and Van Diemen's Land; pose of their own accord a constitution for the colonies and he was also of opinion that it was only a better of this country, by which 33 per cent. of the representa- scheme than the plan proposed by the Noble Lord of Lives of these colonies would be nominated by the Crown. having nominees of the Crown in a solitary chamber. —(Hear.) Comparing the proposition of the Govern- With respect to so much of Van Diemen's Land as the meat with that of the Hon. Baronet the Member for amendment applied to, the authority of iSir William Southwark, ho could not for a moment hesitate which to Denison was against the lion. Baronet, for the governor choose, if a choice were imperative. The latter was a expressed his doubts whether in the whole colony a suf statesmanlike plan—the former was a futile piece o f fi ci ent numberproperty single i o i f o aepartiescouldsuAssembly,r e t b c e cc f n o sl u tf n i t d suot p ,e o ,w s s hu e au s td s i e n r g wasttbhtioes legislatio n . requisite Lord J. RUSSELL would not have addressed the Bill, a House at that period of the evening if the Hon. Gentle- become of the other House, which required a higher man had not questioned the information supplied by the qualification and an additional number of members. Government. That information consisted of dispatches Under all the circumstances of the case it was his inten from g overnors of the colonies and other persons i n pos . tion to vote for the original clause.—(flour.) session of the means of knowing the facts. The infor- Mr. AGLIONBY said the difficulty under which he mation of the Hon. Gentleman was deferred until favour- laboured was the want of sufficient information on which able breezes, though there could be no doubt the breezes to form an opinion. As an abstract prop os i t i on h e had that came to him came not from the colonies, but from no hesitation in stating that a second chamber was de the Jerusalem Co ffee - house.—(Laughter.) The House sirable, but being ignorant* of the circumstances of the would remember that in Sir H. Young's dispatch it was colony , he thought the colonists ought to have th e stated that a meet i ng of colonists at Adelaide was to power of carrying out that proposition when, and in such take place the following Friday on the subject of the manner, as they themselves might think most desirable. constitution. By journals that had come to hand since In the first place, was an upper chamber desirabl e at then, it appeared t h at t hi s meeting did take place in the this moment ? The composition of such a chamber he Exchange; that there were 2,000 persons th present includ. would leave for future discussion. In January, 1848, Governor Fitzroy expressed his opinion in favour less than from ere were never n3,2oceOtictog la,so34or.individuals in the great of an upper chamber, but from what Lad taken room. At that l Fisher moved the first place in the colony a considerable difference of opi resolution after reading &clause of the Bill—perhaps that nion seemed to exist. In a dispatch received from Van then under discussion —and hi s sp eec h was to the effect Diemen's Land on the Bth April, 1850, and dated De that one chamber was sufficient for the present wants t) f comber chab 2, 1849, Sir W. Denison said that a second the colony, and that a second chamb er composed of no • minee,s of the Crown, appointed for life, was desired,: In ampaeprer ought received to b on the once b April constituted by Parliament.datedAdelaide ve e at l7t , (He ar, hear.) He then spoke in its favour in a style Dec. 17, 1849 i gav the governor gave a series of resolutions which offered a strong contrast to the violence an d the passed by the:Le is! t e Council, the result of which invective in which the Hon. Gentleman and th e H on, was that an upper chamber was desirable , although come Baronet had indulged a g ainst t he Government and th e doubt existed as to its composition. It appeared from Colonial- office of this country. The resolution went on other resolutions Out the colonists differed from the to say, " That the Bill laid before Parliament, in so far governor, and did not want an upper chamber. Upon as it related to South A delaide, met th e wants and th e w h ole he (Mr. Aglionby) was in favour of an upper wishes of the colonists; and that the concession of a re- c h amber. Now if the House should express an opinion presentative Government was to be regarded as a wise in f avour of two chambers, he wished to know whether and lib e r a l measure." It concluded by stating that thanks the Government would be prepared to carry out the were due to Lord Grey, Mr. Hawes—(A laugh)—Lord plan h e h ad suggested, and give the colonists the power J. R usse ll, an d M r . Lahouchere. for introducing it, and to of decidi ng at what time the second chamber should be those Memb e rs of the House of Commons who had given formed. H e b elieved that our colonies would derive it their support . Th e H on ourable Gentleman wanted g re at advanta ge f rom the introduction of the represen the opi n i ons o f the peop l e o f th e colonies. Here was t Ivo element into a single chamber. In New aland meeting, and it was in cent,tlie n o c m n i e n v e c e r s y had art c ls establishedus eda in B r duty itsh o s f h f i r p o p m ic l g 2 s t e o n t ls fr p o e m r the opinion of a great public this country. If the chamber had been elective, h favour of th e (Hear,proposition of the Go p v o e s r s n e ze io n n t. of hear.) The House was already in the opinions of the Governor and the Legislative Council belmierv.edßothEatßsuucchKa said dp th w e ou N l d ob n i e e v L er cr h d ay se e e b m e c e d n t t c ske;a. e on the subject, eider two chambers better than one, and an elective Bill. and yet the Honourable Gentlem d an b m y a t i b n e con tained that the colonists were severely oppresse Bill. As to the proposition of a single or . double chamber to be better than a nominee one. Theques chamber, he (Lord J. Russell) was quite surprised to lion then arose when these two elective chambers should - be constituted. The Noble Lord at the head of the cc herr the Ilon. Gentleman say it was a secondary consi deration whether the latter should be p dof notni- lonies said, " What am Ito dot Ido not know the state noes for life or of elected Members. c ln m- h o e se opinion of cf the colony." In such a case he (Mr. Roebuck) would her Majesty's Government there wa il s e th u e t reates d t d r iff o e. endeavour to point out the duty of the Government. It rence between the two principles, was not for the few colonists now in existence to decide understood the lion. Baronet that it was made an open upon the future destinies of the Imperial colonies of the Colonial Reform Association whether question s chamberti on with eat Britain. It would not be right to hand over a should be composed of the nominees of the Crown, g reat Imperial question to be dealt with by a few colo elected for life, or otherwise, or whether they should be niste. Parliameet ought t determine what would be elected and represent the people of the a 'nony. He best for that large colonial empire which was about to owncd he thought that a most important distinction but rise in Australia. The mother countr y sect out a por he would state, in a few words, hi s o bj ect i ons to either tion of her people who, under the flag, the power, and the of those propositions. If, instead of having nominees of England, planted themselves in those distant protection of _ . the Crown in the proportion of one-third in a chamber, wished them to stand towards this r, parts of the world. He where, if the opinion of the representatives was countthe relation of affectionate colonists, and that very decided, it would be enabled completely ry in of to ever stretched-out empire should be go overwhelm them, those eight or nine persons were byvernyed portion oa our principles of freedom which prevailed to sit in a separate character, and control altogether and in this country. ose Taccomplish that object we must put an absolute veto on the legislative measures of make themf by empire making them free sub the representative assembly, he believed the intro- jects, united to r I concerns, but manag duction of such a proposition would cause great dissatis- ing their ownolo us cl in our mper din to their own local faction in the colony, and he was not, therefore, disposed hear.)knowledge.—(Hear r concerns accc)r as g an important con to entertain it. Then they had the other proposition of sideration. How This w _ mo. did we loge the United States A f ; rica? By the want of forethought. Let not a similar blunder he again committed. Let the Noble Lord learn experience from the past. Let this country not again commence a series of events which must finally end in separation. We did so with respect to the thirteen great colonies of America, which had now become inde pendeat states.—(Hear, hear.) The question before the House was, whether they would have two chambers or not. The Government proposition was a single cham ber, one. third of which were nominees of the Crown. Another proposition was two chambers, one of them being elective; and then there was the proposition of the lion. Baronet to have both the chambers elective. In ipch a case as this he thought they might well permit their deliberations to be guided by the reasoning and the ex ample of the great founders of the American Republic. By them there were two elective chambers established. They thus established a principle of government, the want of which was even now felt in Canada. And now, in proposing a chamber, two-thirds chosen by popular election, and one-third by the Home Government, they established an element of quarrels. Why, he asked them, not try an Experiment with their colonies which bad been found not to fail in the United States. begin ning at Ohio and ending with California? By such means they had established a Republican Government which took its place amongst. the nations of the earth. Let them not act as as if they believed Englishmen incapable or unworthy of institutions which they, as freemen, ought to demand. But then it was said, these colonists were ignorant. He denied it. They had acted as enlightened Englishmen in refusing to receive a contaminated population from this country, and in so doing they showed the dignity of their own ca'ute and the purity of their minds. The English Go vernment never had made a colony ; the English people had done so in spite of Parliament, and in despite of Downing -street. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord smiled, but this was no smiling matter. The United States showed what Englishmen could do when they were free from their official trammels. Let them com pare Canada with the adjoining portions of the United States. In the latter there was a great and a contented people; and in the other a faineant, discontented, " an nexation" people. Let them not have any doubt or hesitation as to Englishmen being able to govern them selves. Let them, be said, lay down a good principle, and then leave it to their countrymen to prove that they were of the same blood with themselves.—(Hear.) Mr. M'CULLAGII said that, notwithstanding the able speech of the Hoe. and Learned Gentleman, he was as 3et unaware whether he intended to vote with the Hon. Baronet or not. Those Hon. Gentlemen who were so much afraid of now applying to Van Diemen's Land the principle which they had acquiesced in when it was pro posed to apply it to New South Wales in the last Parlia ment, seemed to have forgotten altogether that then was the time to have been indignant at, and to have knocked on the head this proposition for a single chamber. The Bill which embodied that proposition was, however, passed without a single division or protest against it; and in the House of Lords nobody said any thing with reference to it but the Duke of Buccleuch, on the second reading, and his Noble Friend Lord Montengle, who expressed his satisfaction at the mea sure. The experience we had had with regard to America pointed to this simple rule in legisla tion—that if we desired that the colonists should be animated with the spirit of the country from which they sprang, they should seek to infuse into them the habit of finding remedies for their own wants, and adopting institutions for their own necessities. Hon. Gentlemen were assembled in a free senate, because their forefathers had gradually and slowly made the institu tions of this country what they now were; and they would never have been made otherwise. And we could only hope that those who were to be the image of our institutions would enjoy the same happy fate and pros perity—if et e put upon them the duty—he would not call it the burden—of performing for themselves gradually, and as they progressed, that which was the most impor tant task that any free community could undertake. Lord J. MANNERS—The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had told the House that so great was the ignorance of the Government teed this House with re gard to the feelings, wishes, and position of the colonists for whom they were about to legislate, that they could not fairly and properly take upon themselves to say whether one or two chambers were better too the Australian colonies or not. If the Noble Lord was sound in his reasoning they would thus be debarred not only from deliberating upon the pro priety cf having one or two chambers, but from deli berating upon this Bill at all.—(Hear, hear.) When the Noble Lord said that two chambers could not be legiti mately settled by this House, he would allow him (Lord J. Miners) to ask by what process of reasoning he bad arrived at the conclusion that the House, in the absence of that necessary information, could take upon itself to say that a federative assembly of all those Australian states ought to be called into existence? True, he read a paper to show that s ome man if esta ti on of feeling had taken place in one of the colonies against the proposi tion, not of the Hon, Member for Southwark (Sir W. Moleswoi th), but of the Hon. Member for Midhurat. But if a newspaper report, which had not been seen by Hon. Members, was to be taken as evidence, he (Lord J. Manners) asked the Noble Lord if the paper then lying by his side might not be taken as equally good evidence that the proposition contained in the Bill was distasteful to the population for whom he was about to legislate? So far as he could gather the feeling was unani mously against a federative assembly. Why, then, were they to be debarred from considering the question of two chambers, whilst they were competent to legislate not only with their ignorance, but with their knowledge of the opinion of the colonists upon the subject of a federa tive assembly? They were called upon to lay deeply and broadly the foundation of a colonial constitution, which should afford a shelter to law and to religion. He should have thought that all experience, all analogy, and all traditional feeling would point to a second chamber as the more preferable form of a legislative body. But the Hon. Gentleman dived into the recesses of Armen can history, and brought to the notice of the House two circumstances, which, however, had been satisfacto rily disposed of by the Hon. Gentleman who sat near him. The Hon. Member referred to Virginia; but what was the burden of his story ? Why that Virginia, after some years, found the anomaly and confusion created by the system so great that the system broke down under the burden—and with a candour that did him credit, the Hon. Member also admitted that every one of the Ame rican states, as soon as they had the opportunity, upset the very system he now called on the House to adopt for the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member spoke of the single chamber of France. What was the spectacle the capital of that country presented? Why, tl at the very existence of civil society depended on the struggle fora single seat in this single chamber between a licentious novel- writer and an heroic tradesman.—(Elear, hear.) He thought there was no need to refer to the ex perience of the past—the experience of common sense would suffice to tell them that a double chamber was the best for all purposes. He did not hear the principle openly repudiated by her Majesty's Government. The Noble Lord, however, took care not to indicate a preference for a single chamber. But this was to be expected from those who aspired to tread in the footsteps of Pitt and Fox. He would detain the House for a short time by referring to an expression of opinion by Mr. Fox in 1791, when the Quebec Bill was debated. The opinion of that statesman was to the effect that it was indispen sably necessary to make aristocracy a branch of the Ca nadian constitution, and for that purpose there ought to be a legislative assembly established to correspond to hereditary peers in the British Parliament. Govern ment did not openly repudiate this opinion—they simply passed by it.—(Hear.) The papers on the table of the House showed unmistakably what were the opinions of the governors of the colonies. The Noble Lord had told the (louse that the opinion of the Legislative Council Oi South Australia was of little worth, as the members were nominees of the Crown. If that was a valid ground for placing no value on an opinion, what would be the worth of an assembly to be constituted under the Bill of the Noble Lord?—(Hear, hear.) Was it not clear, from all that had transpired as connected with the subject of colonization of late years, that Government could not do too much to create enterprise in that di rection? How could a combined movement be secured unless by holding out inducements for respectable par ties to go out to the colonies? If you desired to see men and women of gentle blood and high breeding lei to take a part in the colonial enterprise of the day, it could only be effected by holding out a new home, in which they would find the refinements, the courtesies, and, may be, these honours which in their own country they would not be debarred from?—(Hear.) It was partly on that ground he was anxious for a second chamber, net that he thought it would be wise at once to create an hereditary chamber, such as the Legislative Council of South Australia recommended, but became, by laying the foundation deeply and broadly, they might rely on it feelings would spring up which would in time enable the colonists to carry out sound constitutional prin ciples to their full development. This was one cf his main reasons for supporting the amendment of the Hon. Baronet. He might quote numegous dispatches which had been recently received in support of his views, but he would not do so, as they doubtless were familiar to the House. Those dispatches, however, must have due weight with those who wished to do justice to the colo nies. —(Hear, hear.) He was anxious the House should decide in favour of a double chamber, because of his conviction that, by including as much of the aristocratic element in the government ot the colony as was advisable, we should see the benefits of it in after time. Whatever might be the decision of that House, he should have the satisfaction ot knowing he had done his duty, and he would now venture to ask the House to support the pro position of the Hon. Baronet, feeling convinced that as we valued and benefited by the institutions we derived from our forefathers, so it was right South Australia should also enjoy the benefit of similar institutions. Mr. KEOGH said many of his fellow countrymen felt a great interest in these colonies, and this induced him :o address the House. The Hon. Baronet had stated that it was right and proper Englishmen should have labs made by a majority of their representatives ; this he concurred in—but then the Hon. Baronet's amend- meet was totally at variance with that principle. Those who supported this amendment did so on the ground that coloLics should be allowed to govern themselves, and to model their own constitution. But which party, he asked, carried out those principles best—they only who supported a single chamber, with a power to change a constitution according to circumstances, or they who wished to have two chambers without such an import ant power ? The Governor of Sydney in his dispatches called attention to a numerously. signed petition, the prayer of which was to hope her Majesty would not sanction any alteration in their constitution without first con sulting the colonistp. But had the colonists been con sulted on this subject. lie asserted they had net, and he would undertake to p rove that the colonists were in favour of a single chamber. At the various public meet ings, the speakers were generally in favour of a single chamber, on the ground that at the present time proper materials for a second climber did not exist in the colony. He was not contending for the superiority of a single over a double chamber. Lie did not mean to aay that at some future time a double chamber might not be expe dient, tut he advocaeed a single chamber, because t sentiments of the colonists on that point had been FO un eqnivocally expressed. The last (list aech from Gover nor Young stared one reins:rite ble feet which direntitled the resolutions cf the Eeecutive Council t) any weight weatever. The fourth paragraph in ti e dispatch would fully bear cut thet asecrtien. Governor Denison's, ()pinion had been too much relied on—for, in 1848, he had given an opinion which was adverse to the opinion he gave in 1849. The Hon. Member for Southwaik considered that the proviso requiring the signification of her Majesty 's pleasure to any enactment was conclusive in favour of his views. But the people of the colony did not so regard it, for he found in the Adelaide Times of the lit c f October, 1849 —a paper IN hich was opposed to Government, and which demanded the most extensive powers for the people—he found in that organ of the public opinion of the colony a statement, after mentioning that the Bill, besides giving the power of amending the represeetation, provided for making any other amendment that experience could suggest; that it the Bill were carried out they should be quite content with it, notwithstanding the stipulation that those amendments, in order to their becoming valid, should be submitted to her Majesty's pie asure and to Parliament. Was it then open to the Hon. Member for Southwark to say that the clause was powerless to give the colonists what they desired ? The object of the Bill was not toes tablish a permanent single chamber instead of a double one. On the contrary, it empowered the colonists to establish two chambers if they choose ; and though the Hon. Gentleman had co nten d e d t h at if the Bill were assed a double chamber would never be established, he must take the liberty of thinking otherwise should the colonists see fit to make the change. He saw nothing to prevent their bringing the force of the public opinion of the colonists to bear upon their representatives so as to effect that alteration whenever they choose. lie cautioned the House against adopting any suggestion coming from the Colonial Reform Aesociation, not one of whose members concurred in opinion upon any one sub ject but that of colonial reform, and even on the nature of that reform they were not agreed, for the Hon. Member fur Midhurst (Mr. Walpole) proposed that one of the two chambers should consist of members nominated by the Crown. The Hen. Member for Southwark pro posed two elective chambers, while the Hon. Member for Stefferdshire (Mr. Adderley) had some other pre jeet ; besides, notwithstanding the assertion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), he contended that the House had not sufficient information to enable them to decide upon a question of such impor tance as the adoption of a double chamber. Mr. DISRAELI understood they were in Commit tee on the sixth clause 'of the Bill, and that the point in discussion was, whether in the projected con stitution for the Anstreliau colonies there should be one or two chambers. That, he apprehended, was the subject for consideration, and there - fore, though the Hunourab!e Gentleman who had just spoken had told them that that was not the question only, but that in the Bill there were powers which the colonists might avail themselves of to hare a second house if they thought it necessary, he (Mr. Disraeli) apprehended that those were considei ations which ought not to affect their vote that night.—(!tear, hear.) The consideration of the sixth clause really involved the question whether they were that night to decide it this new colonial constitution should' possess one or two chambers, nor were the elements of the composition of either one chamber or the other at all at issue at that moment. Those were considerations which were apart from the sixth clause, he thought; and not only that it was quite as well that the question should be divested of those other considerations, but that she question in itself was sufficiently grave. He hardly knew any one more difficult to decide upon, or any occasion on which the responsibility of a vote should be felt more sensibly by a Member of that House. The question, however, was not new to the House. Of late years it had been necessarily brought before the consideration of every Member. He thought it was not four years ago since there had been a change of govern ment, and a new government was founded upon e ther principles —on e of which was colonial reform. In a question so extremely difficult as the construction of a political constitution for distant colonies, gentlemen na turally looked with great expectation and respect to the existing government of the day to be their " guides, phi losophers, and friends."— (Hear.) The Government were not loug in existence when they gave to the Rouge an inkhnb of the policy which they thought ought. to be pursued with respect to the question now under con sideration. A constitution for a distant colony being contiguous to that the constitution for which was now under discussion, was presented to the House, and they had an opportunity of taking the opinion of the Govern ment, especially those members of it who were known as colonial reformers, upon the subject ; and on that first subject of a constitution for a distant colony, three years and a half ago, the Government were ofopinion that there should be two chambers. Some time afterwards another project of a colonial constitution—a constitution, indeed, for one of those very colonies —a colony of still greater importaece than any he had adverted to, and after still more mature reflection, after having been in office some little time, and after having profited by their former experience and previous experiments, the Go vernment again produced a project of constitution which again included this plan of two chambers.—(Hear.) Su far, then, the Government, during their still somewhat brief career, had offered to the House renewed instance s of their approbation of the principle. But a great change occurred after that latter instance in the policy of the Government. In their projects the Government had not been fortunate; both of them had been rejected by the populations to whose necessities they had been addressed, and a very considerable change took place in the manner in which the Government pre. pared their future operations. And he was rather surprised the House had not dwelt more in detail, and with more interest, upon this very remarkable character, almost unprecedented in recent Parliamentary history, of the mode of proceeding adopted with respect to those very communities. There suddenly was a de legation of the duties of the Secretary of State for the Colonies to the Committee of the Privy Council—a very remarkable circumstance, because, atter a Government distinguished by the liberality of its me mbers, and re markable for the very great reputation of the individual who presided over the colonies—had taken office—after great promises they had held out to the country of the great salutary changes in our colonial system, it was very remarkable that the Secretary of State for the Colonial Department should announce that he was incapable of forming an opinion upon all those subjects which were considered as the very subjects, the ability to form an opinion on which formed the qualification of a man to be Secretary of State for the Colonies. —(Hear, hear.) They were told that those were subjects of great difficulty viz., that the construction of the system and the settle ment of the principles on which emigration should be conducted, according to which the waste lands should be sold, and on which the political constitution of the colo nies should be settled—that those were subjects of such extreme difficulty that the Secretary of State found it necessary to delegate the performance of his duties, and the decision of those important points to a Committee of the Privy Council. He would have thought, that if Sseovsuerbejiegcnts_inif. a man was not capable of incurring the responsibility Council as to the 'decision o to f as a member of the Ca binet,aadd advising no w g ' il a was hi n go o t prepared on his own responsibility to deeide on the matter of colonial government, when points so very important, and which had been so long discussed, and which had so occupied the attention of all statesmen connected with the colonies, as the sale of waste lands, the conduct of emigration, and the principles on which political constitutions were to be offered to the colonies—he should have said that such a man was the last person who should have been ambitious of being Secretary of State fur the Colonies.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord said "Hear." He was glad he had condescended to attend to his observations. The Noble Lord was a great constitutional scholar, and per haps he would explain that difficulty. Well, then, the performance of the duties of Secretary of State for the Colonies was delegated to the Committee of the Privy Council. It was they who were to decide on the sub ject. They knew who the members of that council were, for they bad their signatures to a document. One of them was the nobleman who now filled the office of Lord Chief Justice of England. lie believed all felt that the manner in which that Noble and Learned Lord would discharge the arduous duties of that high office would make him go down t posterity with a reputation as eminent as that of any of his predecessors.—(Hear, hear.) Lord Campbell was then Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and for that Noble and Learned Lord he had very great re spect, but be wanted to know why should not the Secre tary of State for the Colonies be responsible for the per formance of his duties in that capacity, and not the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster; the second mem ber of the Committee e f Privy Council was the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Leboucheie). He had no doubt that the Right Hon. Gentleman had every qualification to be Colonial Minister—he had very greatly distinguished himself as Under-Secretary for the. Colonies—but, if he was to be Colonial Minister, he (Mr. D.) preferred he should be responsible for the administration of the colonies, and not another person, who bore the title of the office and left to him the performance of its func tions. But the House bad every security in Lord Campbell and the President of the Board of Trade—for these two members of the Committee of Privy Council were Members of Parliament. They could, in the House of Lords or the House of Commons, hold them responsible for the advice which they gave to the Sovereign, however much they might disapprove of the system on which their advice on such subjects had been solicited. But there was a third member of the Committee of Privy Council on whom the fulfilment of the duties pertaining to the office of Colonial Secretary was devolved —a gentleman who bore the name of Sir Edward Ryan. He was not a Member of the House of Commons, he was not in the House of Lords. How, then, v as the responsibility of the Minister in the person of Sir Edward Ryan to be secured? If he wanted to , know where that gentleman was, to secure his response bility, ho must send for the red book, and, if he lived in a hotel, the responsibility of the Minister in his person was not to be fixed. Yet it was upon his advice that the Ministers who, for a very cote sidereble period, had announced to the House their ad- hesion to the principle of two chambers, had b( en drawing up systems of legiilature according to that principle., passing them in that House, and sending them out to the colonies—it was upon the advice of that gen tleman, and of the Committee of Privy Council, of which he was a member, and to whom the fulfilment of the du ties of St cretary of State for the Colonies had beta del( - gatcd, in consequence of that funotonary's previous failure and pure incapacity to fulfil the duties of his office—that Ministers now suddenly called on them to adopt this new project of a single chamber. Let him first call the attention . of the House to the most im- portant document of all in their possession upon that subject, the one which they had last received, laid which EVEN ING, had been the basis of the whole policy of the Govern ment—namely, the report of those Right Hon. Lords of the Uonsmittee of Council, that report being dated the Ist or April, 1849. Perhaps the Noble Lord would tell him that there was nothing unconstitutional in submit ting a great public question to the consideration of the Privy Council of Trade and Plantations. But it should be remembered that the Lords of that Council were limbers of Parliament. In the present instance the vice of the old sy stain of governing, this country by couu callers, with selectee the people were not acquainted, had been adopted and revived by her Majesty's present Mi nisters. Now, let the House hear what had been the lan guage employed by the Committee of Privy Council on that very question of a single or a double chamber.— (The Hon. Gentleman here read an extract from the repot t of the Committee to the effect that it was in their opinion desirable that the political institutions of the British colonies should be brought into the nearest possible analogy to the constitution of the United Kingdom; and that the general practice had been to grant double chambers to our colonies; but they added that circum stances of a peculiar character had reluctantly c‘eupell them to recommend a departure from that practice in the present instance, and the appointment of only a single house of legislation.) Now it appeared that the only reason which had induced the Committee to offer that advice was the state of public feeling in New South Wales upon the subject TLe Honourable and amed Gentleman the Member for Athlone (Mr. Keogh) had triumphantly appealed to a great public meeting held at Sydney, in which the idea of a second chamber had been universally condemned. But be (Mr. Disraeli) wished to know what sort of a second chamber it was that had been so denounced. —(Hear, hear.) He wanted to know whether it had been put to the inhabitants of Sydney or to the colonists of New South Wales generally that the second chamber was to be the chamber indicated by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark.—(licar, hear.) Un doubtedly if the inhabitants of Sydney were asked whe ther or not they were in favour of the establishment of a second chamber choke full of the nominees of the Go vernment, he should not be surprised if they were to re ject the offer with derision and indignation. He bad said that the duties of the Secretary of State had been dele gated to the Committee of the Privy Council; and the Noble Lord had appeared to doubt the accuracy of that statement. Lord J. RUSSELL said that neither the question of emigration nor the question of the waste lands had been reserved for that Committee. Mr. DISRAELI said he found that among the mat ters referred to, upon which the Committee had offered their opinions, were the division of the colonies, the es tablishment of municipal councils, the levying of district rates, the management of waste lands, the details of the civil list, the duties on customs, and the appropriation of the revenue derived from the sale cf land. With all these questions he found that the Committee had dealt, notwithstanding the statement of the Noble Lord that some, at least, e f those questions had not been submitted for their consideration. The Committee in the course of their report alleged that until the commencement of the nineteenth century the almost uniform usage had been to establish local legislatures consisting t 1 three estates—a government nominated by the Sovereign, a council nominated by the Sovereeign, and an assembly elected by the people. Now, he had never before heard that her Majesty was one of the estates of the realm. He had always understood that the three estates of the realm consisted of certain classes of subjects invested with political privileges. There were three estates of the realm in England— the estate of the Lords spiritual, the estate of the Lords temporal, and the estate of the Commons; but to ray that the Queen was an estate of the realm was to say that she formed a class of her own subjects. Yet those were the Gentlemen to decide on the question of a single or a double chamber.—(Hear.) Nor was that a mere slip of the pen, for he found that in another and a most impor tant portion of the document the same statement was re peated. Those Gentlemen, therefore, who were drawing up constitutions to be sent out to the Antipodes were ab solutely quite ignorant of what was an estste of the realm, and classed the governor of a colony as such an estate.—(llear.) He found that within a very brief period her Majesty's Ministers had been advocates of a double chamber in two cases in which they must have pondered long over the measures which they had intro duced—measures which at great risk and trouble they had sent on the longest and the most fruitless voyages that had ever awaited any legislative enter prise. In the middle of the period of four eventful years, during which her Majesty's present advisers had been in office, they Lund the Secretary of State for the Colonies —that hot colonial re former, whether from a too sensitive feeling of his failures, or the upbraiding remonstrances of his colleagues—they found him abdicating his functions and appointing a Committee to fulfil his duties; and the result of the labours of the Committee was to produce a change of opinion on the part of her Majesty's Government on the vital principle which the House was then discussing. Now, it appeared to him that the House might safely come to the conclusion that her Majesty's Ministers were not the best and most infallible guides whom they could follow on that subject. What did the Government mean to do? Did they mean to lay it down as a principle of their conduct that they should act exactly in accordance with the general feeling of the present inhabitants of the colony? One would almost infer that from some of the speeches they had heard upon the subject—from the eagerness with which the Noble Lord had referred to that heaven-seat journal which happened to have fallen into his hands, one would suppose that ra public meeting at a coffee house would be sufficient to determine the course which the Goverument would pursue upon that ques tion. He (Mr. Dist cell) wished it to be understood that he was not recommending any course in total defiance of the feelings of the people of the colony. He thought those feelings should be consulted, and that the affairs of so distant a settlement should be approached in a conciliatory spirit. But he could not coincide in the opinion that they ought to decide that question solely in reletence to the feelings of the colonists at the present moment, even if they could ascertain what those feelings were. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dunda:k (Mr. M'Cullagh) said that in dealing with that question, they ought not to anticipate the future. But in his (Mr. Disraeli's) opinion, if they were ever to anticipate the future it was when they were legislating for a colony.—(Hear, hear). For his part, he should give his vote in favour of the prin ciple of anticipation ; he should give his vote in favour of the principle of two chambers ; and he wished to guard himself against being supposed to commit him self to the support of any certain form of second cham ber. lie wished to avoid any unnecessary elements of controversy upon that occasion. He was in favour of a second chamber, because he thought that, under all cir cumstances, it gave stability to a state. He denied that a second chamber was hostile to popular liberty. It might be hostile to popular passions, and yet be the best security for popular liberty. He looked upon it as a re presentation of the conservative principle in its purest elements. He believed that its tendency would be to secure society in the colony, to improve it, and to save it from the gusts of popular passion and caprice. He felt assured that if the question was properly put to the communities of Australia, whether they would have two chambers— provided always the second chamber was not to be filled with. Government nominees—their deci sion would be universal and unanimous in favour of such an arrangement. He felt persuaded that when the de bates in that House upon the subject should have be come known, and when the public in the colony should have become enlightened upon the point, the Noble Lord would find it impossible to carry his measure into operation, however he might pass it through that House. The Noble Lord might not, however, care for that, and ti e present would not be the first constitution returned into his hands. But he wished the Noble Lord to profit by experience, and to prosper for the future in his legislative enter prises. He should have thought that after what Lai occurred during the last three or four years the Noble Lord would not have come to the House upon that occasion without having a clear conception upon this point—were the inhabitants of those colonies clearly , aware of what was meant by two chambers? The in habitants of Sydney were mistaken if they supposed that those who advocated a second chamber were advo cating a second chamber composed merely of Govern ment nominees. That was not the feeling of the House of Commons or of the country upon the subject.— (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundalk had told them that it was better to support the Government Bill than to legislate on mere theory. But was the opinion of the Governor of Van Diemen's Land a mere theory? Was the opinion of the Governor of South Australia a mere theory? Was the opinion of the Governor of New South Wales itself a mere theory? It was the duty of the Government when they came forward with a new project of that description, which they recommended upon an assumed acquaintance with the state of public opinion in these colonies—it was their duty to make sure that they had become accurately ac quainted with that opinion. It appeared to him, from all that he had heard or read upon that subject, that the Government were not well informed with respect to it. Nay, more, the Secretary of State had told them a few hours before that he was lamentably ignorant upon the subject. But why should they legislate under such ig norance? What he ventured to recommend the Noble Lord to do, was to inform himself better upon that im portant topic, and until he should have obtained that in formation, to delay his legislation.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HAWES said he felt it absolutely necessary to notice a few of the statements which had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House. The lion. Gentleman had alluded to the Committee of the Privy Council appointed to consider various colonial questions, and had contended that the Secretary of State, by consenting to that appointment, had altogether aban doned his responsibility. But there was no complaint which he (Mr. 'levees) had heard more frequently put foratard in that House and elsewhere than that the Se cretary of State had hitherto monopolised our colonial government ; and he could not therefore understand the objection of the Honourable Gentleman to the appointment of the Committee which had inquired into the policy which it was at present advisable to pursue towards cur colonies. Let it be remembered that the Secretary for the Colonies had cnly consulted the Committee for their advice, and that he held himself re sponsible for any course which he might afterwards pursue upon the subject. But how had that Committee been constituted ? The Hon. Gentleman had himself bore testimony to the eminent ability of Lord Campbell, one member of the Committee ; then there was Sir F. hyan, a Privy Councillor, and formerly Chief Justice of Bengal ; and there was also Sir G. Sevens, who had long been distinguished at the Colonial-office for his knowledge and ability. The lion. Gentleman had also said that it was in consequence of the report of the Committee that the Government had abandoned the Principle of two chambers. Again, the Honourable Member was mistaken. In 1842 Lord Stauley introduced a Bill, constituting a single chamber, which went through both Houses without a division, and even without an observation, except ono of congratula- APRIL 2O, 1850. tion. So much for the ground laid by the Hon. Gentle man fur the rejection of the Bill. But the Hon. Gentle man said the Government were ignorant—that Lord Grey had avowed his ignorance—and that they had re commended two chambers previously. The Government had certainly changed their opinion, but it was because the colonists tied expressed their satisfaction with the constitution of 1842, and prayed his Noble Friend at ties head of the Cob nial-eifice not to alter it. Was there any thing to he ashemed cf in that ? On the contrary, there was much to be honoured. The Bill stood on the broad principle that it was founded on a knowledge of the opinions and feelings cf the colonists. Would asy one pretend it was opposed to the wishes of the Feaplu of New South Wales? It was, in fact, only the existing constitution of that colony. That it was not opposed to the wishes of the colonists of Victoria was proved by the resolutions he (Mr. Hawes) held in his hand, wherein the people of that colony prayed fur a council composed of 18 elected members and 9 mem bers appointed by the Clown. It was opposed that all four colonies should have constitutions comprehend ing two legislative bodies ; hut the answer to this was, that New South Wales and Victoria were content with the constitutions they had, and desired no change. Were Van Diemen's Land and New South Wales satis fied? The people of those colonies had not expressed their opinion on the subject of two chambers. The Governor of Van Diemen's Land was certainly opposed to a single chamber, but he said be hal no pre cise means of knowing the sentiments of the colonial community, and then give his own opinion ; but if' any decision could be arrived at from the usual channels of information, it would appear that the colonists only de • sired a single elective chamber, and not two bodies. The Honourable Member f o r Sheffield said that it was the duty of Parliament to frame the best constitution in its power for the colonies ; but he (Mr. Hawes) empha tically denied that proposition. Ile stood on a broad principle. if a constitution was to be framed, it should be framed, in his opinion, in conformity with the wishes of the colonists, and not in pursuance of the views of any individual Member of that House. That was the cause of the duration of the Ameri can Constitution—all of whom bad begun with a single chamber, and established a second as a necessity of their conformation, in the course of time. It would he the same with the colony of New South Wales in due pro cess. With re fsrence to the objections raised on the operation of the 35th clause, he (Mr. Hewes) would clearly state that the policy of the Government, in con ferring power upon the colonists, was to permit them honestly to exercise that power for the purpose of ame liorating their constitution. Hitherto the Crown had been constantly opposed to the colonial constitutions, but now powers of local self-government were conferred on Australia, which were intended should be exercised. Reference was made to Lord Grey's dispatch of 1847, r l proposing two chambers for New South Wales, but the course adopted by his Noble Friend was to adopt that constitution which the colonists were attached to, and give them the means of im proving it. Was that a policy to be condemned as it had been by the Hon. Baronet and the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire? In framing a Bill such as that under discussion, the colonies were obtaining that. expansive form of government which was beat adapted for their present state, as well as for their future extension. If, however, the amendment proposed were adopted, a delay would take place, which would cause great discontent, and mateirially impede the application of the measure on the colony. He (Mr. Hawes) there. fore entreated the House to conciliate the colonists by waiving its right to legislate fair them, and by deterrence to their feelings and opinions to lay the foundation of a work which they would look up to with pride and satis faction as the production of their own hands.—(hlear.) Mr. DISRAELI explained. He bad omitted the name of Sir J. Stephen, because be had not signed the report of the Committee of the Privy Council. As to Sir Edward Ryan, who the Hon. Gentleman said was a chief justice, all he (Mr. Disraeli) could say was, that he was sorry that two chief' justices should have to decide upon the colonial policy of this country. Mr. SCOTT then rose, amidst loud cries for a divi sion. He was understood, in the confusion, to say the majority of the colonists had expressed themselves against the plan of a single chamber, and in favour cf a double chamber. Recent accounts showed that it was condemned at a public meeting in Hobart Town, Van Diemen's Land; while at two public meetings held at Port Philip and Sydney, no resolution was come to on the question, though the speeches wore all against it. Silence gave consent. If there was one duty more than another incumbent upon the governor of any of our colonies, it was that he should particularly define such a form of government as they ought to enjoy .—(Loud cries of "Divide.") Mr. MO WATT said the present Bill was brought forward in such a fair spirit, and was really such a de sirable measure, that he wan unwilling to oppose it. The Hon. Member for Athlone had dressed the Bill up in such colours, that ho felt it to be his duty as a colonist to say half a dozen words upon the subject. His prin cipal objection to the Bill was, that the colonists wore nut permitted in future to legislate for themselves as he thought they would wish. By the dispatch received from Sir W. Denison it would appear that the colonists under his goverment were so delighted with the idea of a repeesentative government that they were not in a fit position. to examine the measure now proposed—a measure which he regretted to say gave the nomination of one-third of the chamber to the Crown. For his part, he thought that it was the duty of this country to le gislate for her colonies, to profit by her experien ce , an d to select such t. form f government as might be calcus lated to work well. Ho would ask, could there be a doubt enterteined of the decision to which the colonies would come as to the question whether they were to have two chambers or one chamber, with a third of it nominated by 'the Government ?—(Hear, and cries of " Divide.") He could not sit down without expressing his regret thee. the Bill should have such a blot in it as that to which he alluded.—(Loud cries of " Divide, di• vide.") Mr. BASS proceeded to address the House, amid loud demands for a. division, but even the substance of what he said could not be caught in the gallery. Lord J. RUSSELL said it he did not think that some Hon. Members, were not exactly aware of the immediate question upon which they were going to divide, he should not have again troubled the House. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark proposed to leave out the words " of persons proposed by the Crown and elected by the people," and to substitute other words in their place. But the Hon. Baronet, in pressing his views with respect to the two chambers, did not state whether or -not the two chambers were to be elective. Both the Mon. Baronet amid the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire had avoided that question; and, in deed, the litter had said that he would not bind himself to the two chambers to be so appointed. He thought it etas of importance that the House should not come to a decision to throw aside the plan of the Go vernment without seeing what they proposed in its place. —(Hear.) If they were to have two elective chambers without any .persons appointed by the Crown, he would ask them were they sure that two chambers so composed would not be the echo of one another?—(hear.) Such would be the case if the House adopted the propo- sition of the Honourable Baronet. He would ask them then to corts!:der what danger they might not incur if they attempted to frame that Constitution in a different manner for that colony than they proposed framing constitutions for otter colonies. The Bill they now proposed W 8.3 in conformity with one which had been introduced by Lord Stanley in the year 1842. It had been laid before Parliament last year, had been sent to the Australian colonies, and from them no voice of dissent Lad proceeded. If that were so, if the colonists we re pleased after examining its details, that, at least, was a proof that the measure would not be badly recers ed in the colonies. The persons in this country eon fleeted with the colonial interests implicated in the Bill, had asked tho House to pass it.—(Hear.) The Honourable Gentleman who spoke last but one had said deem was no power to alter the constitution subsequently. What he proposed was, that they should adopt a known principle of government before they at tempted to - form what was a new constitution altogether. The colonists would be likely to receive it with glad ness now, but the only alternative of the acceptance of the proposition before the House would be to delay the measure fee' another year, and that would be a great in jury, end would be felt with great dismay in the colo nies. He trusted the Bill would be received with the view of advancing the interests of the colonies, and no thing else. --(Hear, and cries of " Divide.") Sir W. HOLES WORTH, in reply, said his proposi tion embre.ced four distinct alterations in the clause. The first of them, upon which they would then divide, was upon the omission of certain words. The principle for which he contended was that of the American states, and the question was whether they would adopt a spstem which had been only eight years in operation in Aus tralia, in' preference to that which had been found to work so well, after an experience of many years, in the United States.—(Cries of "Divide, divide.") The galleries were then cleared, when there:appeared— For the amendment 150 Against it ... 218 Majority against the amendment —6B Mr. ANSTEY then propssed the omission of certain words in the clause, with the view of placing the carrying out of the Bill in the hands of the Governor, instead of the Legislative Council, but did not press it to a division. Mr. WYLD, who arose amidst loud cries of "Ad journ," said he did not rise for the purpose of moving the amendment of which he had given notice, but to ask the Government whether it was their intention to make any peculiar provision for the convicts inVan Diemen's Land, because a very material point would arise upon that subject, as he held the existence of free insticutlons and the continuation of transportation in compatible. Mr. HAWES said the Bill contained no provisions relative to the government of convicts. Mr. PLEL wished to know why ..the number of the Legislative Council in Van Diemen's Land was restricted to twenty-four, when no limitatio n was p l ace ) on the number of the Members in New South Wales and West een Australia. Mr. _HAWES could assign no particular reason for 6.Eing the number at twenty-four, but it mu.t he re tr.e:nnered that in New South Wales the Legislative Coma 11l was a representative body, while in Van Die❑ len's Luid it was a Crown legislature. M r. ANSTEY then proposed the emission of the pro• ;ision which edm4ted the nominees of the Crown to ..........._ .. sets is in the, legislature with the members elected by the pe . ,l'ile. - - The Committee divided, when there appeared — For the amendment ... ... 27 Against it ... ... 159 Majority ... --132 Clause 6, as a needed, was then agreed to, and The CHAIRMAN r, ported progress and obtained f leave to sit again. MERCANTILE MARINE BILL. Mr. LABOUCHERE said he wished to withdraw this Bill in order to bring in an amended one. He should not fail to name an early day for the se e d ; reading. He moved, therefore, tha*, the order be charged —Agreed to. t e rn The' erchant Seamen's Fund Bill, w hich stood second r. ading, was postponed. MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL. stod Mr. LABOUCHERE said that this Bill, which o v for a se , e,nd reading, related to an alteration of th e t w ° l o nage of vessels, as it at present existed. It e founded on the reeommendatiou of the ton g Cotece f lust session, and had been circulated ar a est , the clafses connected with the mercantile W el to He believed that serious objections were entertained.ol the Bill in its present form, and that it would "...„ be right to press its adoption in the present sessioce.o (lle,a, hear.) The subject, which was one of g r a' difficulty, would be considered between this and the 13 .„ 0 , session; and if he should th en h o ld hi s presen t situatt" A he thought, from the communications he bad recei ve ; that he should be able to submit a measure on the sa d jkct. He begged th ere f ore to move t h at t h e B i ll be l e ' a second time that day six monthf.—Motion agtee i t,s l) 's The other orders were disposed of, and the adjourned at One o'clock. LA W IN TELLIGEN CB. BAIL COURT, April 19. ' (Sittings at Nisi Prius, fore Mr. Justice CoeeeeDa aad a Common Jury.) DAVIS V. DICKINSON. [ This was an action on a warranty, the declar sl d lo , ll . , alleging that the plaintiff had purchased a cow oft he o ld fendant, which w a s warran t e d t o b e w i t h ca lf, and w- do t calve in six we t k s , t o w hi c h a ll egat i on t h e defes i L u e had pleaded that at th e ti me o f th e sa l e s h e was lg calf, but she afterwards mi sc a rr i e d i n consequence of over-driving the of the plaintiff, Mr. James, Q.C., with whom was Mr. Untbank, W pb peered for the plaintiff ; and Mr. Sergeant Sheet w. ' whom was Mr. P ea r s o n , a pp eare d f or t h e defendant' Mr. JAMES stated the case. The plaintiff ehss a ° d i tt o chant carrying on business in the City, and the defes hoo t a cattle-dealer, frequenting the various fairs throng"., o l the country. In November last the plaintiff 7.4 anxious to procure a cow which would SuP o r ol , his family with milk during the winter, and it, tle refore, necessary that the cow which he then ,P to chased should be in so interesting a situation a9 t bet admit of her " c a l v i ng d own " i n s i x wee k s froo3 to , time. Accordingly he instruct e d M r . Hilli n sdale, ~ tired cattle dealer and agriculturist, to go over to Kin it g it , ton fair, and see if he could secure such a cow- A . O ; Hillinsdale did so accordingly, and finding the defe ll e s l e in rossession of a large herd of cattle, he selected 03 cow in question, for which the defendant wanted guineas. Mr. Hillinsdale, however, would only giv e ioe , and ultimately the bargain was struck at that P r .„* the defendant warranting that the cow was in calf, ";,1 would calve down in six weeks. The, c „"e was driven that day from Kingston to 131° ; , - t; and the following day to the plaintiff's P e r '„ n el residence at Camberwell, where she was o' co ". to be exceedingly friskey, in fact, a complete fen e breaker, and exhibiting symptoms which indicated ef o thing but being in " a situation that cows should be w to, love bulls." An infallible test was then iesortv. .b which satisfied Mr. Billinsdale that she was not Wtr calf, and ultimately she was re t urne d to t h e defendit ti ot with an intimation that h e mus t re f un d t h e mo ney Is had been paid for her. Thi s h e re f use d to d o , tb° ld b 11y he offered to exchange h er f or ano th er , and eeen.,lP-.tee the matter ceded iu the p resen t ac ti on at l a w, 311 , be course of which it was anti c ip a t e d th at th ere would a good deal of hard swearing, as generally 110 PP e in settling disputes about quadrupeds. and Mr. Hillinsdale w as ca ll e d t o p rove_t h e purc hase the wart ant. red Cross-examined by Mr. S e r gean t SHEE—She apPei i- be to be with calf, but the best judges were liable t . 9 mistaken. Not being w i t h ca lf, h er va lue / 4 " scarcely 51. fed John Chapman, the gard ener o f t h e p l a i n tiff, Pr °- f that he received the cow at C am b erwe ll on t h e 14th of November. She was put i n t o a p a dd oc k, f o e she was exceedingly res ti ve , breaking 'e-cl and getting in amongst the other cows. This indtl e o him to believe that she was not with eta , to at his recommendation the test already referred was put in practice, and the result proved that she r r, not iu calf, and she was therefore returned to the M ie n who offered to refund the 0/. or exchange her for i s "; other, but Mr. Davis demanded more. The defenal, denied having warranted her in coarse terms, and though the cow was left with him he never waited Or the plaintiff or moved further in the affair. to Cross-examined—When the cow w as t a ken heck the defendant he said he selected her out as being W ho calf because she would run with the bull. When 0 was returned she appeared to b e th e same s i z e as °b e he received her two months before. tied Re-examined—The cow co u ld no t h ave m iscar ri ed without his observing it. She was a b ou t t wo years ° ld this spring. This was the case. Mr. Sergeant SIIEE pointed out to they jury that tb erli f was an histus in the hi s t or y o f t h e cow f rom t he dal ;),, the sale and the day of h er re t urn . Th e man w ho ( 139 ' her to Brixton was not h ere , an d as h e s h ou ld prove fir°il: she was in calf at the tim e o f th e sa l e , it would be 4 the jury to determine wheth er or no s h e h a d n ot sliPi t her calf through over driving before she reached bs destination at Champion-hill, Camberwell. A nephew of the defendant, named Bradshaw, W w : then called , who stated that Hilli ns d a l e , w h en he Pt; chased the cow, examined h er ver y m i nute l y. She 0-0 at the time very full of milk, and there could be2 l ,: a doubt that when she was so ld s h e was i n calf. The me; est trifle would make a cow miscarry. Eating 0 1 thing eff the Ledge, such as a piece of yew, would do ir,„ Cross examined—A cow th a t m i scarr i es s h ow s 11 afterbirth for two or th ree d ays, an d i f t hi s cow ha slipped her c a lf on t h e way h ome, i t must have bee `" visible to any one familiar with cattle. Mr. James Smith, a cattle-dealer, was at Kings fair when this cow was so ld. P rev i ous to t h e s ale examined her, and found she was in calf. The defend' asked too much for her, and he did not buy. Cross-examined—The reason he hit upon this po l l : cular heifer was that it wa s hi s f ancy , and fepcy i L great way sometimes. Th e d e f en d ant as k e d him for her. This was the defendant's case. Mr. JAMES was about to reply, but, • 11 The jury said they h a d ma d e up the i r m i n d s to ma for the plaintiff. A verdict was accordingly entered for the plaintiff, damages 91. A disastrous a cc id en t occurre d on the Mancheste r ' Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway at Gainsborough oa day morning. The down mail-train leaving Gainsboroad, at 8.25 A.M., had passed over the bridge on the Spital-r°,, e , and about a quarter of an hour afterwards a fine called the Sysyphus, constructed by Sharpe and Co. of 2 4 7 0 chester, was shunting on the down line; when it had g.° A t er s the bridge by the length o f th e eng i ne, t h e cast -i ron gird to snapped in the middle, and th e h ea d o f t h e eng i ne fell „1:21 the road, the other end r e m a i n i ng connected b y the coup e. with the tender, which came to a dead pause on the ' 1 : e0 The driver a. d stoker escap e d w i t h out injury. Had it b o, a passenger-train, the conse quences wou ld h ave b ee n sw. As there are points on each side of the bridge c onnect1 fiB 4 both lines, the traffic duri ng th e d ay passe d t h e bridge on up-line without interruption. G rea t i nconven i ence Was co perienced by the carts, &c., from the country on their v ( ,,, c , to the market. All of them h a d t o make their way round.y. Morton or by Foxby-lane. Th e g i r d ers were cas t At `.. foundry of Air. Farmer, and were amply tested under tite perintendence of the engineers before the line was openemoi Whether, after all, there was some defect in the casting,,_,r the molecules of the ir on h a d b een di stur b e d i n t h e ir r , tive cohesion by the variati o n o f t empera t ure , i s n ot asee kA tained with certainty. Cast-iron girders will, however, be distrusted for the future, and public confidence will net restored till the principle of safety be more correctly de ter mined in these bridges.—Lincoln Mercury. THE JosiN R. Samny.—Several of the passenge r ; by this unfortunate vessel have returned to Oswestry, they declare that instead of the plundering of the ship the wreckers, the crew, as soon as th e y se t a ll h an ds to t.° pumps, went below and broke into the boxes of the 1 ) ,A 5 : 0 sengers and took everything they could catch hold of. majority of the passengers set sail again from Liverpool ° Monday last, in the ship A. Z., t o t ry t h e i r luck once 113°1.e. —Hereford Journal. [ADVERTISEMENT.]--The best Medicine for Co'' l plaints incidental to F ema l es are H o ll oway ' s . Talbot, of Mitcham, informs Professor Holloway that she co n es siders it her bounden duty to acknowledge the astonishing P l "f nefit she has deriv e d f rom t a ki ng hi s p ill s. A t t h e agv o o f forty-five she began to sutler from a general derangernep t • the system, langour, swoollen legs, and other ailments incidl a to females; and notwithstandi ng th e mos t care f u l a tt en tiopi the advice of eminent phys i ci ans , h er wea k ness an d debit" continued to increase untilshe adopted another cou rse , and ic gi s Holloway's Pills, and this inestimable medicine has r estore her to a soundness of health and buoyancy of spirits which si t Lad not enjoyed for some years .— So ld by all Druggists, asl i $ Professor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand Loados. H NORTH STAFFOIiDsIRE RAILWAY.—The diP ,, t e : rences between this company and the London and Nottua Western Company h ave a t l eng th b een fi na ll y ad j uste d, al id a satisfactory arrangement entered into under the sal! both companies, by which all litigation is superseded, ithi general adjustment of the traffic effected. BIRTHS. On the 10th inst., at the Forest-green House, Ockleif Surrey, Mrs. R. G. Flarmer, of a son. On the 11th inst., in Merrion-square, Dublin, the Wife of J. Purchas, Esq., M.A., of Christ's C o ll ege , C am b r idge, a son. On the 13th inst., at Sharston, Northenden, Ch es hire, Bi ll. Josiah Roberts, of a son. On the 14th inst., at Woodfield-house, near Hudders6eld' Mrs. Bentley Shaw, of a daughter. On the 16th inst., Mrs. F. Lawrence, Milten-on-Thara e* of a daughter. fi• At St. Alban's, on the 17th inst., the wife o f the Rev. Hall, of a son. RABRIED. On the 15th inst., John Wise Stevens Esq., of Tunbridg e ; wells, to Mary Tenterden, the youngest su rv i v i ng datig hte of T. Abbott, Esq., of Horsmonden, Kent. On the 9th inst., at Anton's hill, Berwickshire, C11 01 , e : Samuel Grey, Esq , second son of the late Hon. Sir Geor,. , '„, Grey, tart., to Margaret Dysart, youngest daughter of to" late General Sir Martin Hunter, G.C.M.G., G.C.H. DIED. On the 15th inst., at Tynemouth, aged 61, J. W. Willis! son, Esq., of Whicharn. On the 16th inst., at B ec k en h am , K en t, M ary , re lict 0 f 0. Powis, Esq., late of Grafton -street, Marine-parade, W.ig ton, aged 86. On the 16th inst., at Farnborough, Warwickshire, Franey * fourth daughter of W. Hotbed], Esq., aged 39. On the 16tir inst., at Stoke-next-Guildford, Kitty, relict 01 Mr. H. Webb, of Lambeth. On the 17th inst., i n T av i s t oc k- square , C aro li ne Lawrence' niece of Mr. Alderman and Sheriff Lawrence. r to On the 17th i ns t., age d 59, S usanna -A n d rews, th e wi.e T. Hibbert, Esq , of h.verton, near Liverpool. At Croydon on the 17th iust , Elizabeth, relict of the l et° J. Bordwine,L,:q. o Lyndon: Printed and Published by MURDO yous -• f f o. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, Na Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the eounti Middle:l; Saturday, April 20, 1850. 1:1 1 * sooTri 11EP e s tr ar t G EXZRAL 110. T] Th. 'P., . ~.. ...iitT eil7r Was h, Tt The ana ge so lety' s M affair Ist, That du ally p: eaten 4 %, That the 2,167, eaten •u, That the 300,42 from the lth, That th Year I /IN ti, * kik, 14 4 114,e41.th., Et im tr ,. tirz