The Sun. — London, England, 1850-02-22 00:00:00

! f th e only observation made upon it came The the Ihmourable Memb er f o r Cockermout h Emmet ah!e Gentleman had tested the Pretec 1411w-ills b y the r prose ~ lings on the gasuc-'3, s, l' e c l'uld now ask the 11010.0 jest to see how th" 110)1 • nt , lerrian himself had dealt eith that question during the , ast tire year,. He failed that in March, 13 45 , the l i°o• Gentlenoto had given wake! for a Committee thegtons -laws, and in obedience to a suggestion of Lae Right Iron. Baro net t h e Mm eber fa T r unw aorth, who was then at the head of the Government, the Celli ir,tee was appoioted. The C o mmittee sat till July, and then recomeneeded it; re-appointment; hut the Hote Gentl-eaten the Member f 4. Manchester had in the mean time either found hip thirst a 1 or his difficulties increase, mid h e never mote d for the re appointotent of the Corn raitfee d uring me, t_ ear 1817. In February, 1848, he vent Lured to i nqu i re of the Hon. Gent'eamn what his in e:tien Ca;, an d hi s answer was , that ho the growth u'en eagal,ed in the consideration af • growth o f cotton in India. That might litiee b een a satisfeet try explanation ; hut at all events, after so long; 4 consideration, he hoped the lion. Gentleman had settled th at question. In March, 1848, the lion. Gen be!nan. moved f u r l eave t o b r i n g in a Bill, u t ': an amendment was propoial that the th a 5O should adjourn, which was carried, and Lill mysteriously disappeal el, and it had not been • Decarrd of sin ce . N ow, his lion. Friend the Member for i3 lshire. not making s u ch g reat professions, ha 1 the interval brought in a practical amendment of tee glln e - laws which was carried. and had since been found e,hto work excee di ngly well.—(Hear, hear.) So that i f they re to go b y that test, the Hon. Member for Man• u n eater would come off very poorly indeed.—(Hear, bear.) t s t e now came to a subject on which the Secret's:) , of that° for the Home Department had complained that • 1 . ° Member for Buckinghamshire bad touched but r g h tl• He was so h Right Honourable Geu rry t I t i le o t nan had so closely followed the example of the n oarable Member far Buckinghamshire. Anything e • utore m • ' ate eagre or •niggard than his allusions to Ireland, e t tee k'nr• Stafford) had never heard.—(Protectionist • a R, 11 0 It would be his painful duty to enlighten tbe - nao on the state of Ireland—at all events, on that part of it with which he was intimately connected—in rider t h at the Irish Members who intended to vote $X fast any recon s id e r a tion of the poor-laws and local •••' . ; l eaden on r ea l property s h ou ld b e a ble to get up in the ~e n se and s a y w h y they b e li eve d th e p rese nt state of • ""e took . countryshould continue.—(Hear, hear.) He • th e establishment charges in Ireland to t am„ "ant to 289,000/. He took the law expenses at about t+iiuc, • 5,000/ Ab e •si the coll ec t ors ' poundage rate at 41,0001.; and admi nistration of justice at about 55,000/. He pro (- 5 " 1 is addition to that, that 90,0001 should be Paid ~,,„bi ehf Jr emigration ; 490,0001. was the amount ).. Th ar a he proposed to be granted to Ireland. • • °las e - W a n t" completely satisfy them of the truth of his I .' ' a t t°ns• Ile would then read to them the commu• • s i a c :,7" of a highly respectable Roman Catholic eccle • ro i'oi on whose word they might place the utmost ai i r t ,. e e. The Hon. Gentleman then read the letter, i n I , l r°ra his statement it append that in a parish t . • le fir which he bad acted as clerk, it „,''""ng off the applications for relief which • fiction determined to refuse—for it was a di ' ahl'eh oodie l° ,_ ll of the Poor-law Board to deny all relief to . • .tht2d paupers—the consequence had been that , • i 6l 7 l ghout th e un i on th e re li e f h a d b een reduced from t. • (4 ,' 4 to 12ot a week. Through that regulation upwards .11e 120 able-bodied labourers had been put on the list. • r. ar . °lt'd next pass to the county of Limerick, whence e, . of `l.a resolutions had been forwarded from the board Love guardians to the Noble Lord at the head of the nruent, in which the idea that pauperism was on s. ne It•decreas e was folly refuted. He would ,ask the h Eton. G ent l eman t h e S ecretar y f or I re l a nd whether ' 0;3 had Lot received intormatioq from Ireland, whether str eetsofLimerick had not been paraded by bands of arin edwhose cry was, " Bread or Blood !" and • t o di men, had Pere whom, not only the police but the military • eaen called ou t. This rule of the House refosed 0 ado TTlyv Ireland to b e s eparat e d fr o m this question. "Y beli eve d that I re l an d , once i v j ure d b y an Eng al ' from sYstem of monopoly, was now suffering equal) , t o a SYstein of free trale—equally a vicar], though T't more norcl, but yet not less noxious, system. t .eY told Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that the question ed m°J or i ty wastoo momentous to be decided by a single and that they should continue, as far f ro ''" in their power, to try and save themselves • : their f r i en d s, if f r i en d s t h ey cou ld b e ca ll e d a ft er Th e language at public meetings.—(Hear, hear.) cheer should still continue to contend that immediate ku i ri a Pness ought not to be the sole rule which ought to • the Legishiture ; that with kingdoms, as with in the cheapest bargain often proved the dearest ab c " l 'et and that a Legislature which only considered to e interests of consumers did not deserve that claim • ~abgreatness which they ought to possess.—(Hear.) ed' believed that they were an increasing party in the • ala il t uti Y — a party not pledged to this or that import that out deeply, and ho trusie I irrevocably, pledged to lalid„ c „ a ntinus and comprehensive policy which had con sirb,,ecl the resources of this great nation.—(Cheers.) • th e R. PEEL and Sir J. Gnauast, at the conclusion of • immediately ' 4 't n. Gentleman's speech, rose together, and Cy there were calls for each. The . Speaker, P °lre reri called upon Sir James Graham, and Sir Robert eel immediately gave way „ Sir JA MES GRAIIAN I t h en procee d e d t o o b serve 'Qat it was with great diffidence that he intruded himself l ira the Ho use , b ut if it s h ou ld b e th e ple a sure of the o use to hear his Right Honourable Friend the Mem berat for Tamworth, then he would at once give way.— i car, h ear .) H e was not aware t h at i t was t h e inten tw°4 of His Right Honourable Friend to offer any ob orvations to the House at that hour, and it was only in ' e le dieace to the call of tho Speaker that he k had risen a second time.—(Hear, hear.) • Which • oe thought it most desirable that they should 1 s hear as possible the precise subject h a they were to discuss, and, therefore, h; a e hOuld not follow the Honourable Gentleman who • lust sa t d o wn into the game-laws, the ! 11 Hours' Bill, and much less should he dis• • o r T s the quest i on o f lan dl or d an d tenan t i n the question areland which was more germane to the matter they GQe about to dehate.—(Hear.) He agreed with the Hon. ,ratleman that the question they had to discuss owed se e • r , } l; l argo one. If he thought it was to be nar • 1 :1 , 1- 1, 1 :_t the limits of the motion introduced t t . tle Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire th Bnould have Leon perfectly willing to rest his vote on eouclusive speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the ryalsiecret f State for the Home Department.—(Cheere.) heat, with regard to the landed proprietors of Ireland, la e 7, 4 ; (l °n!y to say, that ho was not deficient; in ad ike4sl' the interests of that country as much as be pos • toldo, even at the sacrifice of his own; because 4, e naved that the maxim of the preference of the good tt many should always be acted upon. He looked • 3e r e 'll the basis of this question as too narrow for the ob s by the Hon. Mover (Mr. Disraeli); yet he ss a n ut at the same time say, that he believed that this ta, l a t he first of a series of questions, all tending to the aia, -rB ,a l of the past policy of the country, for be eon- Vshi r ,', e " it to be only a fragment of that large measure opi he (Mr. Disraeli) proposed last year. Ile was of s " i ° l l that the Hon. Mover intended to transfer to the eo ll . otidated F un d, not only the poor-rate, but the 14 4 ,Y-rate, and the highway-rate; for he (Mr. Disraeli) th e that for the sake of argument, he would bring as la nd -tax un der the consideration of the House, or'L E tlore, that he would also 'present to the notice ttik' e House a very important subject, the malt ferred ,Thus was the sum of 20,000,0001. to . be trans ef — s i rorn the laud-tax about to become a subject cieeat':'scussion, which lie look° I upon es a tav e - ,'n of very great impoitance, for it involved the the re of the past policy of this country, and would ispee!'oro constitute it as a question of change with re .• to the Administration. This was plainly intelli alsoei not only from the speech of the Hun. Mover, but (th e e , re rn the speech of a Noble Duke in another place the 4 ' w , like of Richmond), for that Noble Duke said that ver ( N e ctot his party was to throw out the present Go aserernent and to dissolve Parliament, for purposes which file li v idcnt to all, but which he believed would not be Ing s n e u for it wou ld be impossible, ceusidering the feel reeo-nd opini ons o f t h e gre at mass of the uatiois, to have total r " to Protectionists' principles, as such would lot i !a th ee , rev ersal of the past policy of the country. t Ile rit th at it would better b ecome those Honourable 4 ,vow th il aen (the Pcotectionists) that they should open l y t heir intentions, than to be thus masking them; 'ole t c ueliev e d that they could as well move for the re taitee°ll of the opinion of the house without a Com -4itien-'l4B With it, and he therefore did not see the requi • een such a motion. He would next rt f, , r to the tor p e nt and eloquent speech of the Hon. Member • th at hat Lothian (Mr. Cnarteris); but he should say 4 lre o ° 4 (Mr. Charteris) seemed to he caught and in )4eliem hY the speech of the lion. Member (Mr. Dis gosr Turnin to the establishment charges, there up \say te b e g in respect of them a want of due control, 1 1 1 ' °1 le d •expenditure. to a dangerous and prodigal if th 4 e "lis the commencement of a series of transfers, and t‘ir principle should be violated, it would lead to dan thieo 41 e agreed with the Hon. Member for East Lo• !lisl e ; that this question could only be settled on prin ala°t. equity and justice, and that the burden:, which 'Nest.proposed to remove were quite insignificant if the CEIe 4 was e.ro p , not settled on those great princhpies.— ,• an ble g e „lar.) lie could not deny that recent legislative t,l„ - had affected the lauded interest to a con,ider at h„ - Oees and imposed upon it difficulty and distress; uokin could not agree with the Hon. Member for iTspeotg.4aMshire (Mr. Disraeli), when he said that with was 1 •9 the burthens which it was proposed to remove, . h e eded i mmaterial whether the benefit to be con i4Tlt-rarlere given to the landlord or the to 1 44 4erneither did he think that the tenant :eutilter.sc'uld agree in that opinion.—(llcar, hear, and v _gow t b„ The Right Hon. Btronet then proceeded to 4 0 p oe 't a dec rease of 15 per cent. h a d ta k en p l ace i n t , Nv l'cre t r i; ra teS in the a g ricultural districts. In Scotland, b e `f r e was excellent management of the poor, the p res recipients bad diminished.—(Hear.) ques , th ei ented itself, would they consent to a reversal present Policy in respect to taxation, and would t eal t eent t which prop erty c o place a large portion of the burdens of tca tb o those articles of primary necessity from e en, h e eeY,tunl remitted taxation ? Now, to that ques t;:re, wa •Zu n kl . not hesitate to pronounce the opinion that I ."' e the,:ti,elther equity or justice in such a proposition. t he tax a "; thc House would agree with him that inch e 0 4 had been carried to demonstration beyond ,'"Pris ed °f endurance. Since the income-tax had been 7,41111 wortz inielBhhirsl y oull a larno reduction • .( e ano , as had taken place ; that tax Pr o t the bore i o a p t i ld eie w i h i, en it came to bo reneat bo the proper time to ad ftto wbiet_ens on the land, arid there were burdens i tou u , It certainly required to be relieved. The b , s e "iat eb Baronet having alluded to the de et!iitilhi th e ,71.10 h followed in the currency, consequent etietllhrilsteerslation in 1819, and which the country W 4 pea t i oe _ touch lauded, said they would now, by the fi RD:ll)er co t_ imitertialihwhich they were making, fall into a not • , a nc uity. He then e numerated eleven articles, and b • reeks, butter, cheese, soap, tea, coffee, sugar, currants, and raisins, which enter so touch into tae comf..rts and necessities of the poor; Cud asked the House if it was goinz to az.aiii impose heavy burden' on those article., for the t cacti: of re!'. property.—(Hear.) Then there were a few other articles which he would call I the poor man's luxuries—these narcotics in which he sought a shell obliviousness of his cares, and which com prised tetacco, spirits, and beer—and were they, he would ask, prepared to impose belv . er restrictions on tile use of those luxuries of the poor? Would there, he would ask, be either equity or justice in transferring the burdens cf the landed interest to those articles? The Right Honourable Baronet then releried Vie attention of the House t..) what might be done by the landed interest to alleviate their own burdens, by the applica tion of science in the cuhiva ion of their estates, rind by great care in the management of them, and instanced his own estate as an example on this subject. By care, and by great attention, and by the application of science, he Lai situeedel in reducing the local burdens to which his °mat was subject, and in making his tenantry comparatively- condottibis. With recpeat to bricks and timber, he showed, as regarded the landed interest and the public in general, the great injustice levying and keeping- up a tax en these articles, operating as the impost did against all improvements, and he should certainly like to see the existing tax entirely re moved from them. Ho thoughL that the House, in any course which it might take in the adjustment of the burdens, ought not to lose sight of the interests of the poor; and while those who were in favour of the recent • legislative changes had the great body c f the community wall them, he felt that they were strong, and had no thing to fear; and to those who, would return to the for mer system of restriction, and had not the community with them, he would say, they were weak and powerless, •and had no chance of a return to that system.—(Hear.) Speaking from experience, ho could state that in his im mediate neighbourhood there had not been any reduction of wages. The farmers and employers of labour had not reduced the remuneration for employment; and all the articles of filat necessity being cheap, he never recol lected on his own estate so much happiness and content ment among the working classes. Alluding to a remark made the other evening by his Honourable Friend the Member for Surrey, respecting the manufacturing and commercial classes—a remark that he had heard with deep regret—the Right Honourable Baronet said that it was his most anxious wish and desire that all chuses should be united, and the policy ho had ever adopted he believed in his heart and cemscience to be that which was best calculated to promote that end. If they looked to the city_of Glasgow, which was next in importance to the metropolis, they would find, on the authority of the sanitary report of the town council, that that city, which last year had teen visited by an epidemic, was now free from that affliction, trade and confidence was restored, money was cheap and provisions low, the merchants and the manufacturers were full of hope,. end the workmen fall of employment.—(Hear, hear.) He knew how dan gerous it was to deal in prophesy in that House, but still he confidently declared his belief that, when the revenue of the country had improved, when the com mercial and manufacturing classes were prospering,when property was improving in value, the owners and occu pier,of the soil would not long remain the only class subjected to suffering.—(Hear, hear.) Having thanked the House for the indulgence accorded to him while he had so long trespassed on its time, the Right Hon. Gen tleman concluded by stating that for reasons assigned— reasons which he believed to be conclusive—ha should vote against advancing one step towards the considera tion of the motion proposed by the Honourable Gentle man below him, and to giv e the proposition at the outset his decided opposition.Li(Cheeri.) - Mr. GLAI)STONE said that, concurring with Lis Right Hon. Friend in the general opinions he had ex pressed wiih regard to the effect of the recent commer cial policy, having voted with him since the advent of the present Government to power on every questio❑ of importance affecting both the trade and internal economy of the country, and attaching the greatest weight to his authority, even independently of the ability with which he had enforced his arguments, he felt it incumbent on him to state briefly the reasons which actuated him for the vote he intmded giving, inasmuch as that vote would be different from the vote of his Right Hon. Friend.—(Cheers from the Protectionist benches.) The Right Honourable Gentleman wished to impress tha House with the conviction that they were not really canvassing the details of the proposition of the Honourable Member Buckinghamshire, but a change ofAlir inistration, the transfer of eighteen milLons to the Consolidated Fund, and the reversal of free-trade policy. Now, in the vote which he was about to give, he confessed he could not see any of those things. With respect to the change of Administration, he should say that even such a contingency should not exercise any paramount influence in the determination of a claim which was viewed as a clam of justice on the pat of a great portion of their fellow. subjects. But, if he un derstood the Right Honourable Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, that was not the Tround taken by the Government, for he had told them that when the financial statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was moved they could then consider the points of the Hon. Member fur Buckinghamshire's proposition, and that those who now voted against it could, if they saw reason for changing their opinions, then vote its adop tion. This showed pretty clearly that the question was not one for change of Administration. Then with re gard to the alleged result of transferring eighteen mil lions to the Consolidated Fund. He met that statement, firstly, by disputing its accuracy; 'and in the next place, by maintaining that, irrespective of all threatened ulte rior measures, they shonid consider the proposal of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire on its merits, and ►:ot withhold that which was just and reasonable because the motion might be followed by that which was unjust and unreasonable.—(Hear.) With regard to the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement that the adoption of the proposition would be a reversal of tree-trade policy, he wished to stato distinctly- that if— Sir JAMES GRAHAM interrupted his Right Hon. Friend for the purpose of assuring him that he had not made any such statement, or at least, if he had done so, it did nut express the sentiment he intended to convey. What he wished to he understood as having stated was, that he considered the proposition would lead to a re versal of the relief now afforded to the labouring classes. Mr. GLADSTONE rejoiced at the explanation, and felt happy that an accidental expression had misrepre sented the opinion of his Right lion. Friend. His views of the Hon. Member's motion were so weak, alter the gigantic picture drawn by his Right Hon. Friend, that he felt almost ashamed to occupy the attention of the Honse, but he desired it to be understood that in sup porting the proposition for a Committee he did not in any way intend to deliver up his discretion to any specific propeieal, nor to bind that discretion with respect to the terms of the three resolutions which the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire had announced, nor to any ulterior measures which in his judg ment he might subsequently bring forward.—(hear, hear.) He meant simply to pledge himself to this ex tent, that presuming there were portions of the charges of poor-rate and county-rates, which might be trans• ferred to the Consolidated Fund without abandoning the advantages of local legislation, be was willing to go into Committee for the purpose of considering and deter mining which of those charges might with advantage, and a due regard to the great principle of local control, be transferred to the Consolidated Fund. There was, in his opinion, direct connexion between the motion and their commercial policy, and he considered that its favourable considecation would have a tendency to weaken the agitation for a restoration of protection. Ile supported the motion on the very ground which his Right Hon. Friend intended opposing it, namely, on the prieciple of justice. It was impossible to look at the tax levied for the support of the poor without being convinced of the inequality of its pressure. They could not, it was true, have an exactly equal tax, but then there could be an approximation to that equality of pressure. The objection of impracticability did not apply t) the motion of the lion. Member for Buck inghamshire, because that proposition affirmed the un equal pressure of the ratss. Neither was the question one between labour and property, but between certain descriptions of property on the one hand, and certain descriptions of property on the other. His Right Hon. Friend had asked what party would be relieved ny the change proposed? and he (Mr. Gladstone) was not a little surprised at the estimate he (Sir James Graham) had formed of the 'immediate effects of the motion. Looking at the relation between landlord and tenant respectively, they could not in their consideration of this branch of the question pass by the yeomen and inde pendent small farmer class, who, unthr present circum stences, had peculiar claims for support. His Right Hon. Friend admitted that the holders of leases of the tenant-farming class would during the continuance of those leases get the benefit of the change. Then came the case of the tenant-at-erill. Looking at the relation exist ing between the landlord stud his tenants, not in a legal, but in a moral and social point of view, he believed that the tenant-at-will would not be deprived by his land lord of the benefit of those changes. The toaant farmer and the independent yeoman, then, wore the class that would he benefited. But supposins , that after a time the whole benefit came to the landlord thereof, his Right Hon. Friend would not argue that such a re sult should he considered a valid objection to the propo sition. If these were objections to the scheme, the Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to show that there was not one of them which with equal force might not be urged against an equalization of schedule A in l i the Property-tax Bill, which the Right Hon. Member for Ripon seltnitted pressed unjustly on the agricultural classes, and ought to be removed. With regard to the financial objections urged, that they should have before them a statement of the year—know the available surplus, and the relative claims that different classes and interests might advance previously to the consi deration of the proposition, be met those objections by stating that he was prepared to advocate, or at least t ) consider the claim on the ground of justice. But, independently of this circumstance, he men tioned that there were considerations of policy which might incline the Government, and those who did not object about the abstract justice of the motion, to give it a Lir hearing. Admitting that there was much prosperity in the country, he could not shut his eyes to the fact, that in the agricultural class there was se vere struggling going on, and that the farmers were man fully exeiting themselves; and though there might be some whose 'hearts had already given way, and who had prematurely learned the lesson of despondency, still the great mass of that class were engaged in a straggle which they supported with all the energy they pus sesied. He would . not discuss the large and over whelming questions mooted by his Right Hon. Friend. Whether the effect of agreeing to the motion would have the effect of overthrowing the Government, and trans ferring 13,000,000/. of taxation to the Consolidated F ille t, he would not discuss. He was contented to vote on the motion as it stood before the House, and in it he saw no indication of such overwhelming changes. The Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary cf State for the Home Department, certainly did not look upon the motion in the same light ee his Right Honour able Friend, for ho distinctly stated that when lolland fac surplus reseeue aae ascertained it would then be proper to consider how it could best be appropriate 1. fie trusted that considering that protection had been taken away four agriculture, the hence would treat t'o motion in a liberal and conciliatory spirit. He appealed to theses who had gained a great triumph by the recent commercial policy-which had been adopted to support the motion, on the ground that it would tend to remove a leir cause of complaint, and render tle cry for protec tion less powerful than if this inequa,!itv was removed, fo tlsose wire were animated by an abstract sense of justice be appealed, because he believed the claim . was just, and he believed the motion also deserved the sup , port of those, who though they might sympathise with an abstract and mathematical Justice, could yet sympa thise with the geellant struggle which the farmers and yeomanry of this country were now making, and with the condition ef the peasantry throughout the coun try. For his own part, he gave the proposition his most decided and cordial support, because the result of the debate on his own mind had keen, that in all sub stantial points. the proposition itself, and the reasons adduced by the Honourable Member who moved it, bad brea fully and reasonably sustained. (The Hon. Gentlemen sat down amidst loud cheers from the Pro tectionists.) Mr. J. WILSON joined issue with those who sup tsd the motion on the ground of its justice, and con tended tient the inequality of a tax on property was sooner or later lost in the transfer of it to new proprie tors. He came to another point much insisted on by lion. Gentlemen opposite. It was said that inasmuch as landed proprietors inherited those charges under a pro t .ctive system, they had at, present to meet a new and unforeseen difficulty. But he denied that the protective system had been a real advantage to the landowner; and he was also prepared to deny, or at least very ranch to doubt, that the removal of that system had been a real disadvantage to the landowner. The Hon. Gentle man the Member for Northamptonshire (NU. Stafford) had asked what was the cause of the preeent depression in the prices of agricultural produce? Now, in reply to that question, he should endeavour to show that the pre sent prices were of an exceptional and accidental charac ter, and that they were such as no prudent land owner or farmer, and still less such as the Legislature could proceed to act upon. He should first, however, observe that, at some former period, and more especially in the year 1836, greater distress and a greater depth of despair prevailed among the cultivators of the soil in this country than that under which they were at present suf fering, while he had reason to know that the agricul tural labourers had largely benefited by the cheapness of all the chief articles of subsistence. He had spent a por tion of the recess in the county of Wiltshire, a county by no means remarkable for the flourishing condition of its labouring population, and yet he had received there as unequivocal admissions of the improved condition of the labourers and of their families at the present ee:iod as any that had reached him from the north of England. But he repeated that, as regarded the prices of corn, we had of late been living under very exceptional circum stances, and he should endeavour to prove that statement. The first fact to which ho would call the attention of the House was, that the farmers of this country were at pre sent suffering, not so much in consequence of the harvest of 1849, or of the prices which were the result of that harvest, as consequence of the bad harvest of 1848. IJnfortunaeely we had in this country very scanty means of knowing the yearly amount of our agricultu ral produce. But we had date sufficiently accurate for the.purposo of his argument. He found that the quan tities of cern sold in the 256 towns from which the ave rages published in the Gazette were taken, had been as follows in the last four years, each year commencing on the Ist of September, and ending on the following 30th of September e -1845-46 5,929,788 qrs. 1846-47 ... 4,995,518 1847-48 5,450,631 1818-49 4,298,901 It appeared, therefore, that in the year 1848-49 there had been sold in those 256 towns nearly 1,200,000 qrs. less than in the preceding year; and as the quantity sold in those towns was supposed to represent one fourth of the entire quantity sold in the country, the total deficiency in the sales throughout that year amounted to 4,800,000 qrs. Now, taking the value of that deficiency at 455. a quarter, which was the average price, the total loss t the farmers in that way must have amounted to 10,000,00(1/. But the crop so sold was not only deficient in quantity, but was also deficient in quality; and the total loss which it entailed on the farmers, as compared with the produce of the preceding year, might, he believed, be fairly calculated at 15,000,000 L That was one ground for his opinion that the present circumstances of the corn trade were of an exceptional character. He should, however, further observe, that the greatest amount of agricultural distress prevailed in those counties in which there had been the greatest (2eficiency in the crop of 1848. The average deficiency throughout England and Wales had been 20 per cent., but in Bedfordshire it had been 28 per cent.; iu Cambridgeshire, 30; in,Suffolls, 25; in Worcestershire, 33; in Soreersetshire, 25; in Wiltshire, 22; in Berk shire, 26; in Devonshire, 40; and in Sussex, 45; so that in Sussex, where agricultural distress was at present most acutely felt, the deficiency in the harvest of the year 1848, as compared with that of the preceding year, had amounted to more than double the average deficiency of the whole country. During the same period we had had an enormous importation of foreign grown corn; but ho believed no lion. Gentleman would contend that too much had been imported for the consumption of the people. Let it be remembered that, after that large importation we had very little corn left in our bonding warehouses. It was said, however, that foreign corn was displacing home-grown corn in our markets. But that statement could not be accurate, for in those 256 towns there had been 2,000,000 quarters of corn sold this year, as compared with 1,700,000 quarters sold last year. Now, let them look at the countries from which those large supplies of foreign corn had been received, lie held in his hand returns showing the various countries from which we had derived our importations last year; and he believed that the details of those returns would show that the importations had taken place under circum stances which were not likely to be permanent. Perhaps the House would be surprised to learn that the country which had sent us the largest amount of corn last year was France. The following was a list of our importa tions of wheat from the chief countries from which we had last year derived oar foreign supplies:— . _ .. Qusrterc. Franco ... ... ... "41 ... ... 742,023 'russia ... ... 618,734 ••• ••• •.• ••• United States Russia ... ... 617,131 ... 600,373 Rause TownF, and Rostock and adjacent ports 498,983 Belgium ... ... ... • ... ••• ... 366.098 308,432 Now it should he borne in mind that not withstanding our large importations from France, that country was itself usually an itopnrting country; and that two years ago she had been actually compelled to search the whole world for the surplus necessaries for her people; and after having reminded the House of that fact, ho thought he was. justified in stating that that was an exceptional circumstance in our importations during the last year. As regarded the different countries he hai!mentioned, he should proccei to inquire what had been in each of them the average price of corn during the last eight or ten years, in order that he might ascertain how their importations might influence the prices in this country. With respect to the United States, however, he should observe that he had been un able to obtain any account of the average prices on which he could rely; and he should, therefore, merely observe that the prices there were at the present moment above the prices in England, and that from a country with such growing wants and such a high rate of wages as prevailed in the United States we could not expect to receive large importations of corn, except in yeara when the prices here should become exceedingly high. But let them look at the case of France. From that country we had received during the last five years, the following importations of corn:—ln 1849, 742,023 quarters; in 1848, 320 010; in 1847, 179,259; in 1846, 73,774; and in 1845, 35,809. It therefore appeared that our impor tations of corn from France had last year reached a most unusual amount. He held in his hand a return showing the averaze price of wheat in France since the year 1838; and that return he should proceed to rears t,) the Ilouee. In 1838 the price had been _ _ 465. 91 per quarter; in 1839, 539.; in 1840, 51s. 61; 1841, 43g. 6,1.; 1842, 465. 9d.; 1543, 49i. 5d.; 1844, 475. 3,1.; 1845, 475. 3d.; 1836, 575. 6d.; 1847, 695. 7d.; showing an average price for those ten years of 51s. 2d. rer quarter. It was true, however, that that price had f Alen in a most extraordinary manner dining the last two yt ars. He found that in the yevr 1848 the average price of wheat in France had amounted to only 395. 9d.; and in the year 184914 had only amounted to 335. 9d. There had, therefore, been a fall, after the lapse of a single year, from 51s. 2d. to 333. 9d. That, he felt jus tilled in stating, could only be regarded as a very ex ceptional circumstance. It was well known that on an average of years France imported more corn than she xported; and he therefore said that our recent impor tations from France could in no way be taken as a cri terion of our trade in corn with that country. Then again, let them look at Belgium, from which our impor tations of wheat during the last five years had been as follows: Qrs. 1349.. ..• •• 306,098 1848_ ~. 178,399 1847... ••• ••• 27,469 1846... ... ..• ••• 3 , 0 6 3 1845... ... ••• 983 Notwithstanding the large amount of those importations last year, Belgium was a corn importing country, and an Act was actually in the course of being passed in 13e1- glum for putting an end to a corn law which had been established there some years ago, in imitation of our former sliding scale, it having first been found necessary to suspend that law from year to year. He could not think that Honourable Gentlemen opposite need be alarmed by any large importations of corn we could re ceive from Belgium. He did not wish to eay a word that could be considered derogatory to the character of the very industrious and inoffensive people of that coun try; hut he certainly did not believe that they could prove very formidable competitors to the English fartnem He found that in ono of the most important districts of Belgium—the district of Maliiaes—the aver age size of the farms amounted to only eight acres, while out of 13,000 holdings not less than 7,000 con sisted of less than two acres of land.--(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Surely the English farmer, with his great resources, could meet the competition of a people so situated. lle found that the average price of the quar ter of wheat in Belgium during the ten years from 1839 to the end c f 1848 had been as follows: S. ( 1, 1839 ... ..• ••• 55 3 1840 ... .•• ••• 51 6 1811 ••• 43 0 1842 ... 53 0 1843 ... ..• ... 46 9 1844 42 6 1845 ... 49 0 1846 ... 58 0 FRIDAY 1847 ,,, 74 6 1848 ... „, 43 3 Showing an average for the ten years of 52+.33. But, curia : ; the last three months, the avezage price cf . wheat in Belgium had amounted to no more than 384. 3.1. Then, again, he said, they had to deal with exceptionel circumstances. He next came to 11ollsnd ; and trout that country he found that our importations during the la.t five years had been as f6llcws Qrs. 1849 ••• ... 308,482 1848 • • ... ... 163,978 1847 ••• ... 11,800 1816 ••• ••• ••• 473 1845 1,614 in Holland the average price of wheat during the last ten yrars had been 54s 4d a quarter; and it was well known that that was na importing rather than an ex porting country. He should next pass to the importa tions from Prussia and the surrounding districts, of which the great part was hamburg h. Our imports from that district had been in—. 1849 ••• 493 Qr5 ,983 1848 ••• ... 532,550 1847 ••• 154,839 1846 ••• ... 126,573 1845 154,271 The average price of wheat at llamburgh from 1839 to 1848 had broil— In 18'39 50s. per qr. 1840 ... 404. 1841 ~„ ~, 57 5 , 1842 ... ,„ 365. 1343 ... • ... 355. 9d. 1844 295. 1845 ... „.. 495. 1846 • ... 51s. 1847 ... „, 43e. 1848 „, 45:. showing an average p r i ce — o f 44,. 91. But last year the average price had fall en to 275. quarter. It had been said that wheat could be purchased at an exceed ingly low rate in Prussia Proper; but he found that in that country the average price of wheat on the spot was 3Gs. a quarter, while the average price at Dantzie was 495, 6d.; and allowing 4s. for the ce e t o f f reightage to this country, that wheat could not be sold here without any expense for landing warehouses, and other charges, at less than about 545. a quarter. Then again, he could perceive nothing in the price of corn in the ports of the Black Sea which ought seriously to alarm our farmers. But he might be asked to what he would attribute the present low prices in this country ? To such a question ho would, in the first place, reply, that they were owing to the excessively hi e !' prices which had prevailed hero in the year 1847, and which had given an unnatural stimulus to the cultivators of the soil in all the great wheat growing countries of Europe. In the second place, he must attribute those low prices to the convulsed state of Europe during the last few years, which had deranged all the ordinary operations of commerce; and, in ,the third place, he would attribute them to the alarm and the agitation which prevailed amongst the agricultural classes, and which deterred capitalists from investing ther money, as they would otherwise :have done, in the purchase of agricultural produce. But after having taken a minute and careful survey of the whole of that snbject, he felt convinced that the English farmer, from the great ad vantages which he enjoyed in the possession of large capital, and proximity to the best markets in existence, could successfully compete with the agriculturists of any other portion of the world.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BUCK said that the free-trade law had been the cause of ruin end desolation not only to the farmer and the farmer's labourer, but also to the shop-keepers in the agricultural towns, and that much as they had suffered already he feared that they would suffer more before a remedy was applied to their distressed condition. He had attentively listened to the speech of the Honourable Geutleman who spoke last (Mr. Wilson), and he could not in it find anything that related to the resolution be fore the House, but he should allow that it was in unison with the speeches of those Hon. Gentlemen who, for the purpose of carrying their free-trade measure, travelled d t v e i s c i o o u n n tr y and n o d r i t ff h, er e e n a s e t ,: wbees between , a e I t! south, t h e l a a n n d d t l o h r u c reated ds and his tenant, and when they failed in effecting this, they brought ruin and disaster on both. Ho would appeal to their consciences, he would appeal to the honour of honourable mon, and ask was justice done to the land lord, the tenant, or the labourer, by this measure of free trade? Did he need an answer he had only to look to the distress and dismay that prevails throughout all the agricultural districts of England, Scotland and It e.and. As to the predictions of the Honourable Member, he, and he believed all of his party (the Protectionists), held them in sovereign contempt, for he had not heard one argument from the free-traders that had the slightest tendency to remove his fixed impression, or that seemed to wish to remove distress and desolation from the country. The alarm generally entertained, did not originate from a competi tion with the United States of America, but it arose from the idea of placing the free -born Englishman in competition with the serfs of Poland, a system that he feared would ultimately banish the pride and stay of his country to a foreign district, or force him to spend the wretched remainder of his in a workhouse. He con tended that if proper encouragement were given by the Legislature, that it would be found that there is not one labourer too much for this country, and that all could be, satisfactory to all patties, well employed. Again, he would call the attention of the House to the financial condition of the farmers, who state, that when they came to the examination of their accounts, they found that they had lost one-third of their capital since the passing of those destructive free-trade measure. Add to those losses the consequence of a bad harvest in this country, and of a good one abroad, and he would ask what then would be the price of British produce ? He believed that it would be the means of reducing the price of wheat to the low sum of four shillings per bushel, and would also create regret in the late and present Go vernment, for persevering in so unjust a policy. They were told on the other side of the House that the poor rates were decreased, but he was in possession of a re turn which would show that everything tended to depress the landed interest. From all appearances he saw no reason to hope that the landed interest would be very much better }text year than in the present; on the con trary, he apprehended they would be very much worse. The House should take care that they did not, by their acts, depress the labouring interest more than it was at present depressed ; they should remember that it was to that interest that this country was mainly indebted for its greatness, and they might depend upon it, if they continued much lo nger to neglect that interest they would endauger the monarchy, and this great country would fall. Mr. GRANTLEY BERKELEY felt that it would be presumption in him to attempt to reply to the arguments of the Right Hon. Berens t (Sir J. Graham), yet he felt that he would not be discharging his duty to those with whom ho was connected, if he did not give some expres sion to his opinions en this subjec'. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that in the county cf Cumberland the wages of the l a bour ers were not decreased. However that might be, he (Ur. G. B er k e l ey ) must say t h at t h e trade,i o t h tithat which tr atnh t ed h t e te, a l a t ampt i n gh s. Right 4i Hon. n e . r Baronetslah had hd ons no the nd had so much boasted, h a d not yet reached the counties counties he knew lab our i ng c l asses were in a most ob distressedfeGnGloucestershire, eogf t e e : . rr n se d he W t r i e o ' n, a alternative with r espect to the employment of them but e them al together, or else employ them at and the l a b ourers i n rep l y to that t h e n l d f i s c v ‘ h , a a g r g e expressed their desire to work at half wages rather than bo discharged. The Right Honourable Baronet had expressed his opinion that the beceats of free trade would he felt in the long run." Now, what the Right Honourable Baronet meant by the " long run"—(Laughter)--he could not say ; but this he knew, that it had already ruined the tenant-farmers. He (Mr. Grantley Berkt ley) was a tenant-farmer himself, and ho felt the bail consequences of free trade very severely. With respect to the gentlemen of the " Man chester School," be :nest say to them that they knew no more of farming than he knew of the manufacture of cotton. To the Ilon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Wilson), who said he had adopted Wiltshire for his county, he would say it mattered not whether he adopted Wiltshire, or Wiltshire adopted him. But this he must say, in reference is a statement of the lion. Gentleman as to the excellent condition of the labourers in that county, that they were actually working for six shillings a week. With respect to the cotton trade cf Manchester, he felt that th e H ouse and the country were not yet i n possession o f t h e real !aeta on t h at sub j ect. An d now he would as k , what had the Government done for the country? " noisy" gentl emen the Manchester school "ginger- They had just done this—they had given the bread" to stop their mouths, and had taken from the farmers the flour that made it.—(Laughter.) The lion. Member concluded by stating that he should give his sup port t s the motion, from a sense of its justice and a con viction cf its necessity. Sir R. PEEL said—Whatever other motives I might have for wishing to address the House on the subject which has been brought forward with great ability and with equal temperance and moderation, the necessity which I feel t o t a k e a course different from that w hi c h has been tak en by my Right Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford is a sufficient reason why I should not wish to arrive at an opposite conclusion from him without explaining the grounds upon which that conclusion is based.— (Hear.) For my Right Hon. Friend I base the greatest respect and esteem. I was associated with him in the preparation of those measures to the effect of which he partly attributes the conclusion at which he has arrived. From him I derived the most zealous and effective assistance, and it is some consola tion for me to hear from my Right Hon. Friend that although epos this particular motion we have arrived at different conclusions, his confidence in the justice of those principles upon which he contended for the com mercial policy which of late soars has been adopted. remains entirely unshaken.—(Hear, hear.) Before I address myself to some remarks of my Right Hon. Friend I wish to state, with respect to the agricultural interest, that I do not deny that it is suffering consider able distress—(Hear, hear)—that for that distress I fee!, on every account, the warmest sympathy. [An HON. Mesinea on the Opposition benches--" Oh dear!"— (Laughter and cheers.] I think the House will be of opiuiot that I take the most becoming course in passing by without further notice the inarticulate sounds with which the Hon. Gent'e:nan has greeted me.—(Cheers.) I wish to cons:der this subject with the respect to which it is entitled from the resenitude of the interests involvel in it.—(Cheers.) I believe those inarticulate sounds are _ of them—(Hear, and laughter)—but T about as powerful as what the Hon. Gentl eman might say in support shall not he disturbed by them or prevented from enter• in s ; into the consideration of this subject with that tem per which ought to regulate this discuseion.(Hestr.) I know not why the, Hon. Gentleman should doubt my sympathy with the agricultural interest.—(llear.) My own interests aro intimately connected with its prospe rity, and this I must say, that if any measures to which I have been party, however con vine e I I may be of the gone - mai policy and general benefit which would result to the country from them, have affected any special or pecu liar interest with distreA, gee ater is the s3eapathy which I should feel.—(Cheers.) I say this also, that if it be true that the occupying tenants of this country are unwilling to reduce the amount of labour, if they are making exertions to prevent that distress from which they may be suffesing, from visiting those on whose labour they depend, they have on that account al additional cla'm for our respectful consideration of their distress.—(Hear, hear.) Ido not indeed, while I admit tt.e distress that provails, view it with apprehension and despondeney. I regret the condition of the agricultut al interest. I do believe there are special and peculiar causes affecting that interest.—(Bear.) I think it was impossible to listen to the speech made in the course of to-night by the lion. Member for Westbury without feeling that there was a strong presumption that, at the present moment, there are peculiar causes e'f depression and distress. I refer also to the frequent occa.ions upon which during the maintenance of protection the Crown in the Speech from the throne spoke of the distress of the agricultural interest. But, as I believe that now, when protection has ceased, some of those causes which affected the agricultural interest during the existence of protec tion are again operating, so do I trust that there will be a recovery now, and I do hope that those who profess to feel a deep interest in the prosperity of agriculture will not prejudice theircause and affect their interest by the pro pagation of undue alarm.—(Hear, hear.) This course had been taken on former occasions. Now I see that course taken. I see professors of agriculture in Scot land telling the Scotch farmers, the producers of oats, that Indian corn can be introduced into this country at 12s. per quarter ; and that it is utterly impossible for them to compete in the market with the productions of the United States.—(Bear, hear.) They are giving them that ieformation as to the price at which Indian tern can be imported at the very time when, instead of I2s. a quarter being the price at Liverpool, Limerick, Cork, or Dublin, you find that the price of Indian corn is fluctua7ing probably between 275. and 315. per quar ter. I was not present during the early part of the speech of tho Honourable Member for Northampton shire. lam told that in that speech he snide a personal appeal to me, and asked mo on what ground I thought there was an undue depression of the price of agricul tural produce. I think there is, probably, au undue depression, because I find in commercial countries, and countries which have the advantage, if they consider it to be so, of protection, the same depres sion of price, and the :same complaints which exist in this country. I find that tho depression of price exists not evithetanding the markets of England have been open —(Hear, hear)—notwithstanding that there has been an unusual demand for that agricultural produce. I find in France, in Belgium, our nearest neighbours, each country .having, until a very late period, a law giving ample pro tection to native produce, their agriculture extremely de pressed in price, and their occupying tenants complain ing of the impossibility of cultivating land. I say there does appear, then, to be pervading many countries of Europe the same cause of depression of price of which we have complaints in this country. Whether or no some causes may not affect them, whether or no suc cersive harvest of three or four years may not have sti mulated production, whether or no the price of corn may not have been depressed by an unusual harvest following successive years of scarcity, I will not undertake to say; the fact remains unquestionable that in many coun tries of Europe, having the advantage of protection there were the same complaints of the lowness of prices and the distress of the agricultural interes*. Since I entered the House two documents have been put into my hands which bear upon the subject. Ono is a trade circular, issued at Antwerp, dated Feb. 9, 1850, and it refers to the state and prospects of agriculture in that part of the cont'nent. The circular says:—" At our to-day's market the trade generally ruled dull, and the turn in prices was in savour of the buyers, though we do not expect an important decline, the value of the corn being already too depressed to pay the rents of our farmers." The other document Ls a paper of similar description, bearing the same date as the former, and issued at Nantes. This circular states:—" Prices of corn are for the present very low everywhere in Europe, but, taking into consideration the good quality of some produces of our growth, sand of our beat brands of flour, combined with the low freight obtainable now, we con sider that our market deserves the attention of every one willing to risk interest of money at a low Cato against the chances of a rise, whilst a further decline is quite improbable, as needy sellers have everywhere disposed of their crops, and also noticing that the continuance of the pretest prices in this part of France would soon in volve the ruin of the land° I interest." Here are two countries which have the advantage of free entry into the English market, combined with protection of native produce; and when I see it stated that in them the price of agricultural produce is depressed to such a degree as that it is alleged the farmers must all be ruined, it leads me to the conclusion that causes other than the removal of protection here have mainly contri buted to the production of our distress; and I say, also, it is probable that the same cause which has produced our depreciation of prices is operating generally throughout a great part of the continent. There is one circumstance which relieves my anxiety for the condi tion and prospects of agriculture; I witness with the greatest satisfaction the increasing consumption of the people.—(Hear, hear.) It is in the tendency to in creased consumption that I see not only an indication of general prosperity, but I hope also of improvement of agricultue. In the course of the last year, in addition to a great consumption of native produce, the people of this country have not only imported, but consumed and paid fur, by the produce of their own labour, 5,600,000 quarters of wheat.—(Hear, hear.) This consumption of fireign grain has not diminished the consumption of wheat of our own production. In 1849, as compared with 1848, there has been an increase in the consump tion of British wheat, and concurrently with that the enormous consumption of 5,600,000 quarters of foreign wheat has occurred.—(Loud cries of "Hear.") Ob serve, I do not speak of Indian corn, or oats, or rye, but of the noblest grain, namely, wheat-;—has there been this increased consumption?—(Cheers.) By whom has that wheat bean consumed?—(hear, hear.) If we are seeking for proofs of the improved condition of the country, why need we refer to any other details? Is not the simple fact I have stated sufficient in itself to deter mine the point?—(Cheers.) 5,600,000 quarters of fo reign wheat have been imported, paid for, and consumed! —(Cheers repeated.) By whom? Not by the upper classes. I will venture to say that the quantity of bread eaten by the arist )cracy has little increased in amount.—(Hear, hear.) The quantity consumed in their establishments has little increased. Looking to the middle classes—to those who ale in a state of compa. rative effluence—the probability is that in times of pros perity their consumption of luxuries increases, but not materially their consumption of the great elements of human life.—(Hear, hear.) No; this increase of con sumption has taken place in consequence of the better condition of nose who live by labour.—(Cheers.) You cannot have an increased consumption of millions of quarters unless you have raillions of mouths to e.et them.—(Che ers.) I want, then, no other indication of general prosperity—excepting of course the agricultural class, whose distress I admit—l want no other indication of the general ease and increas ing comfort of the people than the striking fact that there has been an increase in the consumption of bread, and bread of the best quality, which is terfectly unpa ralleled in the history of this couutry.—(Lear, hear.) Well, then, if you can only continue that consumption— if, by your legislation, under the favour of Providence, you can maintain the demand for labour and make your trade and manufactures prosperous, you are not only in creasing the sum of human happiness, but are giving the agriculturists of this country the best chance of that in create I demand which must contribute to their welfare. [ cannot but think that when w e look to such masses of population as are collected in places like Manchester, Birmingham, and the gre it iron districts—when wo consider what is the nature of the demand for agricultural produce—that it is not limited to corn, but extends to meat, milk, cheese, butter, and other articles—l cannot help thinking, I say, that, taking into consideration the capital and skill of our agriculturists, and, above all, ~ the natural and local advantages enjoyed by them, they need not fear comretition with the agriculturists of any other country. —(Cheers.) When I gave my assent to the address in answer to the speech from the throne, it was not env be lief teat the latter cast any slight on the &stress of the agricultural interest. I understood the speech from the throne to a limit the existence of that distress, and to ex press sincere regret at the circumstance. If I had not put that construction upon the Royal speech—if I had thought that it was opan to the objection of treating the complaints of the agriculturists slightingly, and imply ing that they were ill-founded and unworthy of notice, the address to the throne would not have received my support. I now apply myself to the speech of my Right Hon. Friend the member for Oxford University, and will proceed t) state the grounds on which I have come to a conclusion different from that at which he has arrived. My Right Hon. Friend takes up the motion of the Eon. Member Ix Buckinghamshire, and says he is at perfect liberty to dismiss all ex trinsic considerations connected with it, and to consider it only as an abstract proposition. Now, there I diffrr from my Right Honourable Friend. It it is all very well to say to a young Member of this House, "I make a proposal for the House to resolve itself into Committee, in which the whole question will be open for consideration. Go into Committee; hear my proposal; reject what is objectionable, and modify what is capable of modification. Do this, and you will conscientiously discharge your duty; and, even should part of my proposal. you will at least you agree to no have the merit of showing your sympathy for the farmer." But what construction will the occupying tenant and the agricultural interest generally put upon the motion of the Hon. Member? How may their hopes be excited with respect to it? I must do the Hun. Member fir Buckinghamshire the justice to say that he is not chargeable with any attempt at deception.—(Hear, hear.) But Hon. Members must consider the circumstances under which we are discussing this question.—(Hear, hear.) I all not now certain what was meant by the amendment t) the address on .the first 'day of the session; but I thought that the issue taken on that amendment was whether protec tun should be renewed or nut. The Hon. Metnber for Northamptonshire has to night fairly stated that that was the issue then raised, and that, the Lords and Commons baring de cided the question in the negative, he does not advise his friends to occupy the Hou,o with nee dl ess debates, which must end in nothing. In fact the Hon. Member evidently looks upon the question of protection as de eided.—(No, no.) I do not mean decided permanently; but I am sure that if the lion. Member who cries " No" had heard the speech of the Hon. Member fir North amptonshire, he would have iefsrred from it that, as far " the present Parliament is concerned, he deems the re vival of p r ot ec tion hopele .s.—(LTear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire now makes a mien for -the purpose of giving the agricultural interest the CQUI pensation to which he thinks it is entitled on account of the removal of protection. Last year the Hon. Member contended that the amount of bureleas unfairly borne by the landed interest, including the land-tax was not less than 14,000,00 W. This session the lion. Member, with I er feet propriety, comes forw ard and says—" I will not, cn this occasion, bring forward my extended scheme—l con fine my proposition at present to the removal of taxation, unfairly bearing on the agricultural interest i t , the ex tent of 2,000,0001 ; b u t d u no t b e d s ceived—this s only the first of a series of measures—(llear, bear)—others will follow incorporating the same principle, and aft I. you have coneente I to these measures, I will avail inyseit of the earliest epportunity of renewing the protection to which the agricultural interest is entitled.—(Cheers.) The Honourable Member has given us distinct notice that the success of his present proposal will not clot c the account, and that it is not a measure with which the agricultural interest ought to be satisfied; that it is only a partial and a small instalment, and that if we pay the instalment he will prosecute the claim fir the remainder. —(Cheers.) My night Honourable Friend, therefore, cannot say that he is deceived by this motion.—(Hear, hear.) Now, let us see what the proposition of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire is, and whether its adoption would really benefit the class for whose ad vantage it is intended. I wish to consider the proposi tion relatively to its bearing on the finances of the country. The proposal made is us is this, that previously to any exposition of the financial condition of the country by the Chancellor of the Exchequer we shall by a vote of this House determine that 2,000,0001. of taxa tion shall be placed as a charge on the Cunsolidated Fund. For the sake of simplifying the matter I will assume that the balance in the Exchequer is exactly 2,000,000/. I beg the House to consider the effect which the success of the Hon. Member's motion must have upon the financial prospects of the year, and also whether it would benefit the class which it is intended to serve. I am asked to consent to the first of a series of measures which immediately appropriates the whole of the surplus of the present year, and prospectively appropriates the surplus of several succeeding years. I s thi s course o f proceeding desirable even for the interest of the class whose cause the Hon. Member advocates, and which I admit to be labouring under embarrassment? I under stand that the Hon. Member has declared out of this House that one great source from which he anticipated relief to the agricultural interest was the maintenance of public credit, thereby lowering the rate of interest, and giving landed proprietors facilities for re lieving themselves from the charges to which they were now subjected. Although I differed from the lion. Member as to the mode by which he would constitute a surplus, yet I thought there was great force in the sug gestion. If, without augmenting taxation, you can maintain public credit, support the price of the funds, and thereby diminish the rate cf interest and enable the landed interest, by perfectly legitimate means, to relieve itself from a portion of its difficulties, you doubtless achieve a gfeat object. My Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey said, the other night, that we ought to have settled the mortgage question before repealing the corn laws. Is he going to settle that question by destroying our surplus?—(Hear.) My Hon. Friend, of course, meant it to be understood that the landed interest have heavy mortgages upon their property, contracted, let me observe, under a system of protection.—(Hear, hear.) What a picture of landed property did he draw! He pictured to us estates so overburdened with debt that their owners could have no alternative but to sell their property. From what period do these incumbrances date ? Can there be a stronger argument against pro tection than is furnished by my Hon. Friend's account of the present condition of landed property ?—(Hear, Lear.) Admit the account to be correct, you want to enable landed proprietors to borrow money at three ler cent., in order to pay off mortgages which are now car rying interest at 4i or 5 per cent. Is the sissy to do that to tell the fundhclder that all tile surplus of the present year shall be appropriated, and not only that, but to give notice that whenever we have any surplus for some time to coma, it shall be appropriated in like manner, and the amount charged on the Consolidated Fund ?—(Cheers.) I regretted to hear my Hon. Friend speak so lightly of the maintenance of public credit. Let me tell him that if any measure should be adopted which would have the effect of destroying con fidence in the funds and in the maintenance of public credit, it would furnish but a short-lived triumph. The same blow which strikes the public creditor will reach the landed interest.—(Cheers.) Lot king at the bear ing of the proposal before us upon the financial condi tion of the country, it would be a most precipitate and unwise act on the part of this House, in the absence of any official exposition of our financial state, to appro priate the whole of the pretest surplus, and to pledge itself to a principle involving the appropriation of the surplus of future years. Thera are two questions to be considered—first, whether we shall maintain a surplus and thereby raise the price of funds and benefit the agri cultural interest in the nay suggested by the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, by enabling them to borrow money at a low rata of interest, and, secondly, in the event of its being determined not to maintain a surplus, how shall we apply it in the remission of taxa tion so as to confer the greatest amount of benefit on all the interests of the country, the agricultural interest in cluded? But the proposal of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire would at once preclude me from enter ing upon the consideration of those two questions.— (Hear, hear.) My Right Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford desires a revision of taxation, and says he hopes to son the duty on timber, and the duty on bricks repealed at an early period. How can he hope for that if he leaves no surplus?—(Cheers.) Without a surplus, bow is it possible to make a re mission of taxation? How can you remit taxes which undoubtedly bear upon the agricultural interest if you pledge yourself to transfer charges borne by real property to the Consolidated Fund? I must say that there are considerations of the utmost importance connected with the question of the reduction of taxes. Look at the duty on bricks. I must declare, most re spectfully. to the agricultural interest that it; by any transfer of taxation to the Consolidated Fund, you pre clude the Chancellor of the Exchequer from fairly con sidering whether or not the duty on bricks can be re pealed, you are taking a course most injurious to your own interest.—(Cheers.) See how unfairly the duty on bricks operates in different parts of toe country. Those parts of the couutry which abound in coal, and have also the advantage of stone, possess every facility for the construction of houses. Other parts of the country, possessing no coals, and having no command over stone, are obliged to depend upon bricks ; and a heavy excise duty interferes with the building of houses for the poorer portion of the community. If a e could get the duty on bricks removed, at a cost to the Exche quer of 600,0001., it is my deep conviction that the agri cultural interest would be more benefited thereby than by the success of the present proposal. All real property would benefit by the repeal of the brick duty. Look at the influence of the duty on the sanitary condition of towns—a subject to which public attention is closely di rected at present. I cannot conceive that anything would tend more to the improvement of towns than the removal of this duty. The direct interest that the agricultural classes have in enabling the landlord to improve the firm-buildings of the occupying tenant, has also been adverted to. I do believe that that improvement of f!rm buildings by the landlord, for the advantage of the tenant—for the preservation of implements and for the feeding of cattle—will be one great cause of agricultu ral prosperity—(Heir, hear)—that it will be of the tamest import ince.—(flear, hear.) But these benevo lent de iigns cf the landlord are now counteracted by an Excise duty on bricks— (Hear, hear.) What has been the consequence of the removal of Excise du ties ? Why, you are not to estimate the advantage merely by the relief from the pecuniary burden. You have the officers of Excise interfering with your operations—(Hear, hear)—the regulations pre • venting the construction of the article except according to a certain size—(dlesr)—there is the constant fear of a prosecution for fraud—there is the impediment to the exercise of ingenuity.—(Hear, hear.) Remove the brick duty, and let them make bricks without requiring their being nine inches long, and so many inches wide, and so many inches thick—(Hear, hear)—what an im mediate direct advantage would the agricultural intsrest derive from such a removal of a pecuniary burden, and from such an encouragement to the exercise of industry. hear.)__ Now, I don't know whether lion. Members generally have •read the papers laid upo❑ the table almost since, or not above two or three days before, the lion. Gentleman made this motion—papers relating to a question of vital importance to the condition of the country—l mean the operation of the law of settlement. --(hear, hear.) The consideration of that question will be forced upon you. It would be premature to enter upon it now; but I wish you would read the able reports that bare been made by the gentlemen who have been instructed to inquire int ) that subject, and you will understand the difficulties which arise at present from the want of cottages for the labourers in certain districts.—(Hear.) You will see what is the effect upon the health and comfort of the labouring poor from the very imperfect dwellings in which they now re side.—(Hear.) You will find accounts that, in some instances, labourers come to the farm on which they are employed upon donkeys, in consequence of the distance of their residence from the place of their employment.— (Laughter, and loud cries of " Hear.") These things are not, and I am sure they ought not to bo beneath your consideration.—(Cheers.) If such is the condition of the labourer, that in order to have employment upon one farm there are more than twenty donkeys upon which the labourers ride to that daily employment—(A laugh)—it may be a subject for ridicule, but it is one that suggests topics for very serious consideration. — (Cheers.) There are other men whose strength is exhausted by the length of the distance which they have t) come to labour; and others are forced into villages where they are paying 41. or 51. a year for their house r s. r. t c Cries (Hear.) Well, encourage the construction of ona o ( of able cottages by removing the brick d uty. there " Hear.") Alter your law of settlement, so that shall be no discouragement to their finding those com fortable habitations.—(hear.) Consider the law t o set admittlement in conjunction with other matters. dmit they are part of a Ba if f you their importance — if y o u a v ote to-night preclude yourself fr o m the consideration se ries of important considerat i o ns, do not b y n s udden whethe . r . you may not othaeda.vra)ncelethtehme present statebyawisere of themission of taxation.—(llea public revenue, I certainly, Mere I give any opi n i on upon the extent to which the remission of taxation can be carried, shall wait to hear the financial statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(Hear, hear.) W e are speaking of a peculiar period. Next year the question of the income-tax must be brought under re siew.—(Hear.) It may be of the greatest importance to reserve i f e fo e r e t consideration shallw hc t h h e e r t i h t eth shell e d fi b e e a t c i o o e n tinued ;s -made in it. But by the decision of to night you will compel the continuance of the income -tar,—(Cries cf " No," and " Hear, hear.") Nay, but if you do not, then you mean to revive the import duties upon food. —(hear,—(hear, hear.) I entreat any Hon. triend to consider you mean n o t only to appropriate the surplus present year, but th e surp l us o f future for that. t h e If years, and also mean to take a course which shall dis• penile with the income-t ix, then indeed you do manifest what is your intention—(llear, hear)—urged by my Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey (Mr. 11. Drum mond), vita upon every article imported from foreign countries there should be a duty. —(Hear.) Those view a of my Hon. Friend must be carried out if you appropti ate your surplus read also refuse the income-tax.— (Hear, hear.) But my Hon. Friend says that the great struggle is between capital and labour, b. tween money and I.f It is an epigrammatic way of stating his views. •—(A laugh.) He is the great advocate for labour against capital, and for life against money. And what is the practical course which he advises us to pursue? To re move the taxation from capital aid to place it upon labour.—(Hear, hear.) Nay, more—my Hon. Friend says, "I never will be satisfied until the labourer can bake his own bricks, collect his own hops, brew his own malt." Well, then, why won't my Hon. Friend " never rest satisfied" unl ess t h e labourer can eat his bacon without paying a duty if b e gets it from abroad—( " Oh!' and" Hear, hear")—and —and his bre e d a l so ? —(Cheers.) The advocate for labour against capital, for life against money, the man who says, "we never shall hoar the last of it until the labourer can gather his own hops from his hedge and make his own bricks," won't allow us to repea the duty upon bricks.—(" Hear," and dissent.) I say you are taking a course which makes it impossible for you to do so.—(Hear, hear.) If indeed you say you are care less about public credit—(Hear, hear)—you may do all these things; you may appropriate surplus and repeal income duty also; but I say you will make it impossible to maintain your obligations to the public creditor if you make these extensive alterations.—(Hear.) But now let us see what this proposal will be so far as the interest of the occupying tenant is concerned. I will make ne distinction between the occupying tenant and the owner. My belief is that the occupying tenant would, for the present at least, derive some benefit from this measure. I do believe that there is, on the part of the landed pro prietors, that feeling towards their tenantry which would lead to that—(flear, hear)—even if, according to the strict rules of economical science, they might be en titled to increased rent.—(Hear, hear.) I will waive any advantage to the argument, then, upon that point; I will admit that this is a plan from which the occupying tenant might derive advantage; but let us estimate the full amount of his profit. This is also a proposal to re lieve, not the land, but roil property, from a charge to which it is subject; the charge I assume t., be 2,000,0001., which is to be transferred from real pro perty to the Consolidated Fund. Just let us consider some of the circumstances connected with this. As has been said repeatedly, this is no tax upon land exclu sively—it is u tax upon real property; and the propor tion in which land has contributed to this tax has been gradually diminishing; in consequence of the increasing prosperity of commerce and manufactures that portion which falls upon other descriptions of real property has been increasing. If you had made an es timate with respect to the payment of these 2,000,0001. in 1826, when the land paid 69 per cent., you would have failed 1,380,000/. of the 2,000,0004 paid by the land; in 1833, 1,260,0001.; in 1841, 1,040,0001,; and in 1849, only 900,000/. cf the 2,000,0004 would be paid by the lurid.— (Hear, hear.) So that since 1826, in consequence of the improvexent in manufactures and commerce, and the increase of houses, there has been a gradual tendency, as things have existed and as they now continue, to re lieve the lauded interest by transferring this charge to other property. There is an increase of populatiou; there is a diminution of charge on account of the poor, a diminution of charge owing to the diminished price of provisions; there is the reduc!ion of the price per head of those you maintain, from 13s. to Ga.; there are abate ments of the charge upon the land; but at present, of the charge of 2,000,000/. you will purchase a remission of 900,000/. for yourselves by relieving another descrip tion of property to the amount of 1,100,0001. Now, will you let me 2.k you what claim !or relief has that other description of property?—(Bear, hear.) It is not land; no doubt it is real property, but it consists of houses, of mills, and manufactories, the owners of which have been directly benefited, according to our own ad mission, by those recent changes in your legisli.tion.— (Hear, hear.) Up to the present hour we have heard that the landowners have been sacrificed to the mill owners; that the Manchester school have been predomi nant; that they have gained great advantages; that the reduction in the price of provisions has been fir their exclusive benefit. Well, in order that you may gain a remission of taxation yourselvts to the amount of 900,0001 a year, you are going to relieve others whose position is directly opposite to your own—namely, the owners of this other description areal property,who have benefited by this legislation, from larger burdens they are now bearing—burdens which ate constantly increas ing upon them, to the reduction of those which are borne by you. Now, what reason is there for this? And will the occupying tenant be benefited by a change which is certainly to remove 900,0004 from the laud, but which will remove from this other description of property 1,100,0004 that the occupying tenant with others must make up by taxation?—(Hear, hear.) What is the amount of the benefit which any occupying teeatit can receive? I admit to you, for the sake of argument, that the benefit is exclusively for him and not for the land lord. What is the amount of it? It is about 3d. or 4d. in the pound—but he will have to bear increased taxa tion in order to make up that transfer cf . the 1,100,0001, to the Consolidated Fund.—(Hear, hear.) What, then, is the position of this occupying tenant ? You are pre venting the consideration of a remission of the taxes which bear upon him ; you are going to reduce the amount of his present payments to the extent of 3d. or 4d. in the pound, but that advantage must be diminished by the increased charge which be will have to bear in order to make up fur the loss caused by the transfer of the I,loo,ooo4—(heer. hear.) Is is my firm persuasion that the occupying ter ant will derive no benefit wLat ever—(Beer, bear)—none whatever which can compen sate him for the loss to which you are about to subject him.—(Hear, bear.) I say, therefore, that this proposal is in itself an impolitic one, even so far as it concerns the interests of those whom it is especially intended to benefit.—(Hear, hear.) My belief is that agriculture— the landed interest —the occupying tenants will find their advantage much better consulted by leaving it open to consideration whether any remission of public taxa tion shall be made which unduly prestei upon them, and that can be removed, than by merely taking this small per-centage upon what they pay, and preventing the consideration of all those other questions which are of so mach pressing interest. So far, therefore, as their interest is concerned, I decidedly object to the proposal. I object to it upon another ground—that it is a reversal of that financial policy upon which we have beau acting for some time past.—(gear, hear.) I must maintain that in 1842 the apportionment of public taxation was most un just; that tabour was unduly burdened; that there was scarcely an article which entered into the consumption of the poor man which was not heavily charged; the cheese, the butter, the bacon, the pork, everything that ho consumed, if brought nom a foreign country was sub ject to high taxation.—(Bear, hear.) The price of those articles has been reduced, according to your own admis sion. Reduced by what? Reduced, I presume, by free competition, by the unrestricted import from foreign countries of that produce upon which he lives. Now, your are about to remove from real property a charge of 2,000,0004; and to impose it upon those whose condi tion you considered in 1842, whom you thought unduly aggrieved by the pressure or taxation,whom you sought to relieve, whom you did relieve, and a hose effeetion and gratitude you received in return.—(llear.) Some com plain t,f the tea duty, others of the soap duty, others of the window-tax; you are preventing the consideration of all these questions by appropriating this surplus. You are preventing the relief which it might be pos sible to give—relief much more valeable, much more extensive—by transferring this charge from the quatter where it is at present borne, and piecing it upon the consolidated feud. I object to the justice of that trans tea—(Beer, hear.) Idu not say that there may not be some burdens now borne by the land in respect of which there might not be relief • I admitted in 1846 that I thought the land was unduly burdeaed, that I thought the afford mment of taxation was not just.—( ll ear, hear.) I attempted to give relief by transferring the whole charge of criminal prosecutions, the whole eharge of the Irish police, half the charge of medical relief, the charge of schools, to the consolidated fund. Well, I ens not prep ired to say that full and complete relief was given in that respect—(hear)--I Sun not prepare] to say that the charge for vaccination, or the militia, or the registration, does not fall within the same principle. But I know this—that you would laugh at me if I were to go into the Committee which the Hon. Gentleman moves, and then to say—as my Right Hon. Friend pos sibly may—" I think there is a capital case made out for the vaccination charges being transients.' to the consolidated fund, but I am sorry to inform the occupy ing tenant that I have ao other relief to give him.' (A. laugh.) Even if I were to say that lunatic asylums are within the same principle, and the charge for them might properly be transferred to the consolidated fund, I know that I should hear from fArmers that I gave a most decisive proof of being fit to be au inmate of one of these asylums by making such a proposition after the hopes which bad bean excited.— ti s i (Laughter and cheers.) Sir, myniain objection of ourfinancial policy.—(Hear,proposal is, as I said, that it s a reversal I believe the welfare of this country is intimately connected ) with the relief of indus try from taxation.—(Cheers.) believe there is no hear.) mo re powerful instrument by which you can promote contentment and peace and satisfaction with your legis lation, than by convincing those who live by labour that we, the landed proprietors—that the aristocracy of this country are willing to submit to any sacrifice which shall relieve from taxation those articles upon which they depend for subsistence.—(Hear, hear.) I believe you have reaped the full advantage of the remission of such taxation.—(Hear, hear.) I believe you have had duting the last three or fur trying years more contentment, more submission to privation—(heer, hear)—more un affected loyalty—(Hear, hear)—more of refusal to listen to the designs of seditious men—(!Tear, hear)—of men agitating for their own benefit—(liter, hear)—than you could have expected under any other state of things.— (Hear, hear.) The burdens you may intend to impose may be light; this " first of a series of measeres" may in a small degree affect the labour and industry of this country; but you will be alarming those who labour by the indication of repentance as to the course you took.—(Hear.) The relief you give all be found inadequate; there will be a fresh demand; your intention of subjecting to duty everything which comes from foreign countries will be fortified by the proof of the little a 'vantage that you will derive from this small modicum of relief ; and you will probably end, if you are strong enough to pre vail, by the re-imposition of duties, if not cot responding in amount, at least in principle, with those which et ere removed in 1842, and by the system of commercial policy which has bean since adopted.—(lltae, her.) I ear ne aly and sincerely deprecet.e that course.—(Hear, hear.) I deprecate it as uejust i.O itself---(Hear, hear) —I deprecate it as impolitic from its tendency to shake confidence in your deliberations.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I have b( en f./r the last three or four months exposed to charges, as the house is well aware—to the revival of charges of having acted uufaithfully and treachersusly I 8 THE SUN. LONDON, EVENING, FEBRUARY 22, 1850