The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-17 00:00:00

satisfaction which had already been expressed by those whc were best able to judge of its importance, he meant the in struction of the people, proved that the bet rssults might h • anticipated from the improved feelinga which the sister C::1111. trY would bear towards England. The measure was the mon satisfactory, that while they granted this boon to the Romer Catholics, that , did not in any degree injure the Protestant Es tablishment.— ( Hear, bear.) The proposed measut e has already effected much good with the Catholics of Ireland, fee they spoke in high terms of the liberality of this country, whirl conferred on them this boon, for an object the dearest to thee! , hearts, he meant the education of their priests, a sum wind that House did not hesitate frequently to bestow on objects foi their own gratification merely. They had the strongest assu r anees that the fo ebodings of certain flonourabl, Members, with regard to the evils resulting from this grant, would be doomed to disappointinent.—( Hear. He believed that this grant would produce the effects vihiel i ts supporters anticipated. He believed so, because though he differed with his Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen upon Points of faith, he was convinced they were moved by feeling! • w hieh animated every Christian man, and were gratefu' for the kindness of England. They were grateful, above all, fer three boons which were given in a disin terested spirit, because they were calculated to contribute Maeerizlly to the comforts and education of those parties it. *born they took the deepest interest. Thinking these west the effects likely to follow the measure, he was not to be de• terred from prosecuting it by any casual expression whirl m ight have falle n i n the course of the debate from Hon. Mem bers, however distinguished they might be for learning am ability, and still less by any speech which had been trade it that House at any antecedent period. ,Ile entertained he }Ugliest respect for the Hon. Member for Dungarvan. Hit talent and ability diff er from for discussing subjects of this nature war , uniformly great, but nevertheless he was constrained t( one part of a speech made by that Honourable Gentleman upon th;s Bill. But perhaps h( °tight not to fix upon a man whose poetic imagery was at once an excuse for the indiscretion he fell into, when h( stated that the Bill would not give satisfaction unless it led t( some ulterior measure ; nor did he concur with Lord Mont "ale, who in an accidental moment said the grant ought to bi mome n t . nuy and ought to be under the supervision of Par- That expression was used sorre fourteen or fifteen ! e a!' ago. It was an expression, accidentally used not meant for the guidance of Parliament at el! time even when it was delivered. Surely p „ -- `n• it ought not to controul Parliament its dis -"sing, fourteen years afterwards, a measure of such im rflance as the one t h e y were discussing. In the course of th. , abate a t tempts had been made to enter upon points extremely linPortant in themselve', but which had little to do with the su bject of discussion, and therefore they did not necessarily !Pier into the consideration of this question. lie did not thin! ept necessary now to discuss whether it be proper that the Stet, 1/..nOtilld extend f avour t o a ll reunions. He did not deem i• necessary to ascertain whether they were bound now to take int( ex°Osideration the g enera l endowment of every sect that migh• ; iSt i n the country, because that was a question which had n• e e Terence to the one immediately under discussion. But at all st „ e e n!s, if that question was connected with the grant to May . d 'eeto, the time to have censidered it was when the grant was Was ' upon in the year 1795. All they hat to decide now 41 stesether, the principle having been adapted, they shoule f ak e te such An augmentation to the grant as to make it Effective li s i t "'e objects which induced Parliament originally to estab h d been Allusion had freely been made to the petitions wide? h a d ° L een presented on this subject. lie admitted that they di a te e ,, u neo extremely numerous, but the generality of them ag e : n ' e d l'er much from the speeches whieh had been made eoo LP the y grant. The petitioners pursued a very different resist to the line of argument used by lion. Gentlemen who teed the grant. Th petitions uniformly proceeded upon P r ineiple that the grant was established for maintaining on set , , e ot t Catholic establishment, and they called upon the House /1 0 :vote a reasonable grant, but to do away with it altogether. the Ti the exception of two H ity of Oxford and Dube(' e °n • Membe r w h o h a d spo k e in the course of the debate t o te' against the augmentation of it, but they did not object Rra4 smaller amount. But the petitioners looked upon the thik as Preposterous ; and let Hon. Gentlenien, therefore,. no th e e that if they succeeded in rejecting the Bill, it would stop roest no, they would have to proceed a step further. They th e i n ocitince to the R o man Catholic body of Ireland the toneei lra e bed now come when, instead of their rea musty . considering their wants and ,remands, Parliament ~joye t7 i th rl r aw from them the grant which . they halt nam e fora period of fifty years. It . had been said that Par %the]. W ` l S new for the first time going to establish a Romer 11 e. - 4 P ndowment ; bet for his . part he differedthose es th embers who held this opinion. What were the word IVe v e Preamble to the Act which first made this grant f e nrc'e'i„, tll ey were these :—" Whereas, by the law now in e , ath, 4 7 lois kingdom, it is not lawful to endow any Romer Pan, I C, seminary or college." Then came the enactment nodo e 7nieh said, " It shall be henceforth lawful to establish. Were L e nd maintain any such college." and the same words n,eees s Ttio a subsequent clause, which he did not think it wit. 114%47 to read. Yes, it was the distinct intention of Par sa ete 0 give the grant for that particular purpose, and the qo si nce prat had been repeated for the same purpose every there'ea. °P , II to the present period. But supposing wa! tette ate to endow the institution at that time, it was in c i to do hoe use provided future period, and the Bill th en before s tour 'e for the endowment of the instit u t ion . His N it able Friend in the next place objected to the lis t because he said the Bill made it a permanent e e. 1)11, 1 1 of an annual p rov i s i on, and thus they laid down the t elPle that the R oman C at h ol i c religion should never ceas( ti t ir . aland. Now he very much doubted whether by any le %m y rye enactment they could cause e i t h er the cessation or the le, 4 l ,neeneent of the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland ; and by did he think that its permanence could be prevented SlllZ, ° slding for the wants of the clergy i n an i ndecent an d teinc:ntiog manner. A well educated person, in his %s te t. Was more likely to become a convert to Protestantism he , t r ears had received indifferent instruction. Ile could !n i t ai e e refore, agree with the principle which wished to keep t he "nlarl Catholics in ignorance to induce them to adopt biettlrer faith —if he might he allowed the term—which he :nseseefsttrofessed. N o, h e did not t hi n k th a t course wou ld 44114 air end. They would have a far better chance of to e pietn,e hearts of ;he Roman Catholic people, and rendering th e „, riaoetrines of the Protestant Church more acceptable °Y making every coecession, and giving their clergy •Itnat 4good 7ft:ration. It had been stated in the course of the debate ai:otile Y e gave a better education to the Roman Catholics, so not ettertain 4ua nger the Prot es t an t re li g i on , b u t h e con f esse d h e any such fears, nor did he think either rea ile°llllOiperizelnrience justified the opinion. He would ask his as e r trnati e us who allud e d t o this subject, how it was that the o nign itself was first effected ? Was it when ignorance hot. e s e to ; When literature, science, and art began to ad sei_OPe? His Noble Friend knew full well that it was a tt eees e,tt e d uce and literature had begun to idurninate the ke tee kiee ees the Monks began extensively to cultivate the arts /reit"' themselves that the leaders of the Reformation pre l l'ho I '4 e a rl" , to the world. They were the It had ( li st . obtained a previous literary character, and ht o kneos ,„TPlshed :themselves in classical attainments. e 0 , 17 In e ,""' they acquired these attainments that the light ( eti s ti t h eith t hem, and then the illumined the whole thee!geel:l; Catholicsßo sts - an bi essiogs of . Protestantism.. He said then to it °I trut h in ignorance was only to stop the theymeans hin Ireland, while by increasing stla s Wo u l d tif religious instruction and education t lee thro w ' te e the •. , a blessine upon the land, and !tot es,3l. civilization of inhabitants.—( Hear. ) ,ietlz,eittl;3priests had repeatedly declared that they would pe 'hew er "dowment from the State, and hi; Noble Nie ° Ple by :,, er gued, that if the • were to break faith with Ns be whose contributions the were supported, they b el eeity o , st parttereolfielled to accept of a State allowance. But it r isti ees or t o mak the present measure to endow the Catholii That th e Of th e i r e ft them independent of the voluntary contri eue It o 'Acr es , "°eks• It was altogether erroneous to say I.l ri 9 t ° nf the Ise _ w ow , mh o , grant would increase the number of d eeti 'n b e priests in Ireland. The effect of the 411 44 dee 444 ) arely• to improve the education of those who -t, ~ent prmsts—to supply the students with books N t ? t.heer .enance, which they did not possess at pre :hot: r i lse ans Y to render them better men, and, he hotesd. St t t h 4 b e j 4 nd t o He did not believe that many in the House 1),It 9 titoe it egether concur in the proposition that the grant haa4Poses 4 the u done away with. The grant was confirmed t f t; h Tert -i got, and e ni°e : For 14 years it was continued with sgsi .beef4feeatee by et Y oPportion which bad since been raised tag rs of the House of Comnions been found to vott os e Jeet• • If t 11 1 4 • th ett e , , , hey col not do away with the grant, b.. to ritaL li_l9 there be Co d a measure weich proposed no t h thSn il le . t ' o n t l t t . effective for its purpose? Some objection, 1 % , 4 44 ', that the " time when the increase was proposed tofled.., T , , ; , }1 re could be no time more appropriate than - ` ai tio e 4 'he en sthi e , ergy of the Government had con tth,'L thristo re "ea the finances of the country, and left B o r topi c People he means of granting without danger a boon liaise, a set 9I Ireland so much desired. There were pas the e e •Z n 'eh he would have desired to address the t o teetl so he t h a a.!e had not been &tread so much rolon ed t t al tet Y k ettlb It fell to his lot to add y ress the House eg..henf+qi. ill:o.tbe:prseeWotere..a.bsen-t. He was sorry to be obliged en s, 'lst eks eet s l ew, ot en), Memberwas compelled, Po e ' i t 11, ,to allude to the speech of a Right Hon that although the p measure was' a good 14 4 ttiln ought 31/d Knee ls Prese ts ,. nut to have been brought forward n te „. G o _ Nett tee ye ar eerteletent. But the late Ministers '6 11 4 141 gran! I n Power and they had never ventured to Veili , 'Ratt t e' to th e NI -le t hadthereto the Catholic . Church in Ireland. They e to stigmatise those who under greater St 9i ,Se tt e o ll oe posi e te outage to propose it. The Right lion. 4 /te g lt ehl.the Gov had accused the Right Hon. Baronet at lodi s t d ,rnme n t of inconsistency. This charge ei l leeti re `6't , if well founded, was not a valid charge __pvernment. The Right Hon. Gentleman 4,1 Z, 941 stil e used that his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R ti t Ze J bv tr r j udie : o passions with which he did not sympa- I s les t4 4l et V e th„ ea he withheld in contempt. Let the oer f or nel o. ion the speech made by the Vel to 01 Si r "...?' burgh in 1840, when he expressed 9 , 110 ne e i e. ti,_ttobe.rt Peel's conduct in abstaining obte sep .por u tett e Pa!stoirons and prejudices of the majority of ZiV e th j t etl ,° l l to .He thought there could be Itlltligi4:Ppnt•ne ex principle of the present measure, and ions which had been raised would ttltsoNii ei ° 4 were Ill'i_t,e,de,tbecause the measure was proposed I! iltr 4 l ti tte t d h 37 4 !i irn t 1 0 0 the . charge of inconsistency.—( hear. . Y ) opt o p ro ring the House to pass the Bill, as one "toe good order and religion in the sister 4 4 ° 1 4 "lit % ' she m CLAY said that be did not think that there thens ser , ter Member in the. House who could have tit ,t ,h h_sh h reas on , f e The/7 Opposing the measure now before e a l r y g - e s sZ n a s el t feeling tuen eY is ... Z e al ot 14 1 0 % 1 : h to o df netoeilics to represent existed measure, and many of his friend s to inindehbitsedauppaprotrictiinpgatetdhaint tmhaetasfueerelinigie, :4 4 ,1 r he tl ; th lhei Qus t r a r t b, r ett, Ae .isfeei l loss of their friendship. He could not but think eesi te e ted agreed with many Honourable Gentlemen who 47 4 44 hded v 14419 t wo a nd _ st oat this measure had been greatly m' 11101, ,!1 0... I portion epresented, and he believed that no ei gt of that of the excitement out of doors may have (e, t etis e ne g t i in gs s misapprehension. e a rl s s a o p r n e s n e d n o t w l e the ta Roman att‘e`riteee talk e r the petitions ndmetthnotetth,oharangues at fat t ; "t i r " e lir e h i ni r o a f , either 4n5 , %1 ib eol ed th _ a necessary precursor to such an e d w she Ce t i !Ay oth e ccuracy ef that description. He (nlennied lolie Church er or greater degree an endowment to the existingnaaltsi oin,v g a r la a p nt rtp l e l: t i s a :n y nom h evilly e awed than the ti t ie t t a i h it ti l l aatti to Z z a .. - 1 T a r g f r o a r n educational it wa s vi vid'" by an united Parliament, and emi t tt Y yearst ikl 0 grant, , arid now the se c u rt . t ant i suostitute a exel t tn. t nec Church. he distinctly ses ete ee e , eith er wa s the only • em of educati e , 44neent one or tete 1 " i " " could ever be described - If it re bad:Net:" an the RomanotC•aetrhoic! et " shi l l ecelesias ' rt for •i h a,s r aft er Z' e would for i n ' ta lael.inp'llylratehnot:e heg grants not see c.h t w h h ey y "Ivie s e euneationalur s ti h n t a r y a any jeffn: arf for ot she:evtt that rdonaa::: ece there theie:rme e iltr° t i 't; ‘ , l4 ec ' ''', l e oei e e t i l e t e tee l een the rational,P°ses ianndthßisrietti It couldot be denied th and Me tied Jott.ealsittrtliehtyhatthintte.igrants might become at noncan' th 4 asta t a e tee, (i;eriternest grants only sh e stu i n " -e " - ite,''"e i se lt he di d 7 1. t,be Roman Catholict:lsChuwrl:ho ire iq~o . gd sen 4„ ofnominati wis da d t~ te l4 ele h° °__ls iz for the Y ed e :c p :t r iOr o e i 'KW en of a Church which enjoined ire ray his )le for 11- tIo THE STJN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 17, 1845. celibacy. He wished also to deny that it was the precursor to an endowment. He did no', however, believe that the ano- .naly of a State Church for the tenth-part of the people of Ireland could be long endured. It should be pet an end to by the Government in some way ; and, whether it was by the voluntary system, or by reconciling the people of Ireland to the continued existence of it by endowing that which should be called the national Church, he did not see how that endowment was hastened by this grant. It would be worth while to analyse the grounds on which the opposition rested, the elements of which would be found not only to be heterogeneous, but absolutely conflicting with one another. The Non-conformist petitioners concur in the opposition to the grant, because they thought it was infringing the rights of conscience to grant any sum of money to another Church, the tenets of which they did not believe, and because it would inflict a greater wrong on them than any other class of Pro testants. But what did the Protestants say ? That it would be endangering the establishment. One party opposed because it would uphold the Irish Church, and the others because it would tend to subvert the Irich Church. It could not be true that the same measure would have opposite effects abthe same inne. He did not believe that it would tend to subvert the Church of Ireland, nor did he think that that was its intention, *nil he, as a Protestant himself, would say that opposition from that quarter was unbecoming and ungenerous. The non conformists, if they believed that this may lead to an en• dowment of the Roman Catholic Church. were consistent, but he should like to know upon what tenable ground of prin ciple or justice the members of the Established Church of Ireland could object. It could not be because it was an en dowment. Could they object upon the ground that the Church of Rome entertains and disseminates erroneous doc trines? No; the Protestant Church could not take up that ground. No Church that was built absolutely upon the right of private judgment can set up such a claim, because the very admission of the right of private judgment implied that the very Church that asserts such a claim admits, in allowing the right of private judgment, that it may be wrong, and that its opponents may be right. A 4 a member of that Church, he would aver that it must be conceded that the Protestant Church Establishment was anomalous, in so much as it was not to be defended by ecclesiastical reasons, but by abstract princi ples, and merely upon the ground of expediency. Upon these grounds he would ask, was it becoming in the members of the Church of England to come forward to oppose any provision for the religious instruction of their Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen? The great bulk of the I r i s h people were not to be looked upon as Dissenters. Ireland was not a case where the people had seceded from the Church, but where, by brute force, the Church had been thrust upon the people. Endowment was not the question before them, it was a grant for educational purposes, and upon that ground he would support the measure; and he implored the people of England, upon every ground of justice, generosity, and pru dence, so to consider the matter before them. He did not agree with the Right Hon. Baronet as to the sources from whence the money was to come ; he would support the motion of his -lon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, that it should be paid by Ireland. And he felt that, even if his Honourable Friend failed in his motion, he would, nevertheless, support the grant. This was the only measure which could gain for them the affections of the Irish people ; and he would not take upon himself the responsibility of opposing it. He would ask those who opposed the measure, were they prepared to leave Ireland in its present state—a state in which they retained one portion of their empire as if it were an enemy's country, by artillery and the bayonet.—( Hear, hear.) And if they were not prepared to leave her as she was, what measures were they competent to pass, by which they meant to attach to this country the affections of the people of Ireland; and it was essential that they should be attached to this country. With that country hostile, England would not be safe for a day, and they would lose that opinion of their strength in other countries which would be the best substitute for its existence. . —,..,..., He did not think that it was too much to say that every petition vpposed to that grant which was laid on that table would have the effect of materially retarding those who were negotiating iven on the very shores of the Pac'fic. He could not, of iourse, approve of the whole policy of the Right Hon. Baronet who proposed the measure, and of course he regretted the per versity of fortune that compelled him and others under the guidance of one who appeared to concede to fear that which he efused to justice. If the Hon. Baronet had net acted under motives of a higher nature which he attributed to him, if he brought forward this measure merely through necessity, he ( Sir William Clay) was yet of opinion that he acted right, and that on that occasion he would have his corclial snpport. He was bound to say that if they who opposed this grant were prepared to afford a double impulse to the repeal agitation, and to renewed declamation, miter than give a few paltry thousand •tounds to the education of the Irish priests, then let them hrow out the measure, and touch the Irish on that point in which they were most sensitive, by telling them that they were expect no redress from the British people or from the British House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) Let them see the use already made by Mr. O'Connell of the spirit which had been manifested in London against this grant. If the Bill were brown out he should scarcely know how to blame—enemy as se was to the repeal cause—a renewed agitation of the repeal ; tie should scarcely know how to hope for the time when a real mien could exist ; and for himself he should almost despair of ,ver seeing the two countries reconciled. Lord BERNARD said that, representing as he did a large •onstituency, and considering the corrupt state of the registries if Ireland, and recollecting the intimidation that was used and encouraged by the priests at the last election, he felt he was lot warranted in expressing any other opinions than those he vas about to exhibit on the present occasion. However painful t might be to himself, be was coming forward to express an ,pinion in direct opposition to that Government to which he WAS, in other questions, enabled to give his support. He considered that en this question mere personal feeling should be as dust , n the balance. Before he entered into this question, he would the attention of the House to one speech which was de livered yesterday evening —it was delivered by the lion. Mem ber for Cork, who stated that if Hon. Members knew the state of education in Ireland, they would have known that one if the boons which were most zealously sought or was, that Trinity College should be thrown men to all classes of her Majesty's subjects. Now, why did he quote that particular part of the Hon. Mem ber's speech? It was for this reason—because that Hon. Ilember might be looked upon as an authority in all matters relating to the education of Roman Catholics in Ireland ; and uecause it would appear by the Hon. Member's speech that the Roman Catholics of Ireland were ready to abandon not only , he education of the middle classes, but to make the most im nortant and extraordinary sacrifices rather than yield up their right to political agitation, or the power of aiming another blow at the University of Dublin. But now let him (Lord Bernard) state why it was that he opposed the present measure If the Government. It was for this reason amongst others r hat he had always opposed the grant to Maynooth, and he had yet to learn why he should not do so now. He would ask, was he hound by any compact, or fettered by any tie ? He denied that he was ; and he defied any Hon. Mem • ber in the House to prove the contrary. Let him ask fur ,her, was he bound to vote for the grant of a sum of money for the support of a religion he did not believe to be true, which vote could, in fact, amount to a vote for the suppression of a reli gion which he did believe to be trues Now, let him call to mind one of the alleged grounds of this compact. He would undertake to show that it wag, in fact, no compact at all ; and , n doing so he would not weary the House by referring t the speeches of Lord-Lieutenants of Ireland in former days, for this reason—that they did not differ much from the speeches he had heard delivered in that House. But let him cad the attention of the House to the fact, that in the year 1795, this grant to the Roman Catholic College of thenaoth was made solely for this reason, that the Ronan Catholic priests had, up to that time, been in the habit of re ceiving their education in continental countries, where they imbibed feelings and opinions not consonant with the princi• pies of English G ivernment and English feeling; and also be• ,:a.ise at about that time Woulfe Tone and others of his party were about to establish a demon .atic seminary for the education of the Roman Catholic priests. There was a pamph let published at that time by a member of that party, which, amongst other statements, contained one to ti,:s effect:—'That " it would be much better for the Government to educate the clergy of the Roman Catholic reli gion at home, than to send them abroad; and that, therefore, it would be expedient to give this grant, and that for the pre• sent, at least, it would look plausible." But in an other part of the same work it was stated that " it never could have been contemplated to continue uch a sum for the mere purpose of educating the Romish youth of Ireland, and when such a proposition was proposed to the Legislature, a considerable number of 3lembers left the douse." 'Phis was a statement that was made in the year 1799. Let him now remind the House of statements that had been made upon this sane subject at a later period by Hon. tlembers_, in what was "ailed the Protestant House of Lords , and the Protestant House of Commons; and the votes that had been given in favour of this grant, which it was well known had never been intended to continue for a longer period than twenty years. The Hon. Member for Newark had called the attention of the House to the speech of Mr. Percival in ~ onfirmation of the grant who, the Hon. Member con tended, had spoken in confirmation of the grant and that it should be maintained ; but the Hon. Member had i'oreotten that Mr. Percival had made that speech at a time when the twenty years had not yet expired ; and, therefore, .hat argument could not apply.—(Hear, hear.) Another .peech had been alluded to as made by an lion. Member pro posing that this grant should be increased to 13,0001. That s as in the year 1817 ; but in the Meantime, before that proposi tion could be carried out or considered, the Government were dissolved and a new Government came in; and by that Go vernment the grant was again renewed for the usual sum. But it was not then understood that it was to be compulsive, for if it were to be looked upon in the light of an unwritten iompact, and binding as such, why should it not apply with equal force to the Charter Schools of Ireland.—( Hear, hear. ) Why, on the other hand, should the Government of the country take away from the Established Church in Ireland, revenues to the amount of 75,000/. per annum, by the suppression of certain bishoprics in that country.--( Hear, hear.) Upon a late occasion he (Lord Bernard) presented a petition from the grand jury of the county of Cork—one of the most im portant bodies in Ireland—praying that the Legislature might extend the same protection to Catholics as to Protestants in regard to education, and that petition was signed by four Roman Catholic gentlemen. —( Hear, hear.) He could bring forward rainy other arguments, to show how dangerous it would be to carry out the establishment of this principle ; but he would content himself with those he had already given, and apply himself to another branch of the subject. Now let him ask, were there no reasons stated before the House, why this grant should not be withdrawn? Was it not notorious that the doctrines taught in the College of Maynooth were such as were not those that should be encouraged by the British Government? Was it not well known that the Ro man Catholic priests were the leaders of the agitation that had spread all over Ireland about two years ago? The great public meetings that then took place were led on by the Roman Catholic priests; and, therefore, those clergymen must either have approved of these meetings being held, or they had not the power to restrain the people from attending them. And if, on the one hand, the Roman Catholic priests were the leaders of those meetings, then would the House be holding out a bonus for the promotion of that agitation ; or, on the other, the Go vernment should not assist in aiding the promotion of a reli gious persuasion in Ireland that led to such results.—( Hear, hear.) He would say, also, that he would oppose this motion on religious g, ounds, though he was aware of the difficulty and hanger of introducing such a topic in that assembly. Yet let him remind the H ouse th a t they had been told that If this measure should not pas it would have the effect of increasing the repeal agitation. He denied that such would be the effect; on the contrary, his opinion wa, that if this grant were agreed to they would have concession after concession demanded and proposed. The grant would, undoubtedly, have the effect of endangering the Estab lished Church in Ireland ; and if so, let him ask how long would it be before it would have the same effect in this country? —( Hear, hear.) Let the Howe observe how dangerous it was to spend the public money in support of the Catholic religion in Ireland at this moment, when it was a well-known fact that large bodies of those who professed that religion doubted the truth of it, awl were about to abandon it ; and, therefore, let him ask, was this H use to come forward, and, under those cit.• cumstanses, stop the progress of such a reformation in that country? As to the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, he ( Lord Bernard) would not anticipate the result upon the dis cuision of it, but be would make a remark or two on the speech delivered by the Honourable Member for Montrwe, last night. That Honourable Member stated that a large sum had been placed at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical Com missioners for the purposes of the Protestant Church in -Ireland; but he ( L or d B ernar d) b egge d to say that nothing could be more totally unfounded. The fact was so much the contrary, that the Protestant Church in Ireland at that moment was vet y poor indeed.—( Laughter, and ironical cheers from the Oppo sition.) Hen. Members might laugh, but he would repeat it, tout applications had been teade to those Commissioners for the repairing of churches that had gone into a most dilapidated Mate, but the. invariable answer reeisived was that the Commis sioner= had no fends. Indeed, in the dionese in which he re sided, there were no- fewer than fifty places licensed for rubl:c worship, its which there was no church, while in others, the churches were in so dilapidated a state, that he bad seen the rain falling down throligh the roof during the period of public wor ship. Yu -t, though he heard much said of the poverty of the Roman Catholics of I. eland, let him call upon the House to look at the poor miserable schools the Protestants of Ireland were furnished with, and contrast them with the magnificent cathedrals that the Rom in Catholics had erected for their place: of public worship.—( Loud cheers and laughter from the Opposition.) Hon. Members opposite might cheer and laugh; but if they had seen these edifices as he had, they would not do sio.—(Continued laughter, in which the Hon. Member for Waterford, Mr. Wyse, joined.) The Honour able Member opposite laughed, but he ( Lord Bernard) would ask him, was it not notorious that in addition to the Roman Catholics having erected splendid edifices for their worship in Ireland, they had actually remitted 10,000/. a-year for the purpose of propagating the Roman Catholic faith in countries which he (Lord Bernard) was ready to admit were colonies subject to the British Government. If such then was the fact, why should not the Roman Catholics support themselves, and be above demanding any support from the State? With respect to the statements that had been made, to the effect that the revenues now enjoyed by the Protestant Church had been taken from the Roman Catholics, he begged to say that never was an historical fact more contrary to the real state of the case.—( Laughter from the Opposition benches.) He was prepared now, or at any other time, to defy any man to prove that such was the fact.— ( Renewed laughter.) The Noble Lord then entered into a disquisition on the history of the events that took place in this country, in Ireland, in Scotland, and on the Conti nent, immediately prior and subsequent to the Pro testant Reformation, which, lie contended, plainly showed that the revenues now in the possession of the Pro te,tant Church properly and legally belonged to it, and concluded this branch of his observations by stating that the only incident which the Protestant Church had to deplore was that by which it was for a time deprived of its lawful rights was when Pope Adrian the Fourth sold Ireland to Eng land.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then again adverted to the present state of the Protestant, Church in Ireland. He contended that the ministers of that Church were self-deny ing, zealous, and disinterested, and were, therefore, held in the highest esteem by their flocks. He denied that the Roman Catholics did not seek for supremacy in their Church. Al ready they had attained supremacy in the corporations, and if they got this measure they would never cease until their ereligion was supreme. Let him ask if the Roman Catholic lergy were to receive two hundred pounds a year each; how was the Government to maintain the clergy of the Protestant Church whe were now so poorly paid ?—( Ironical cheers. ) He would call on the House to pause. Let them consider the position in which they stood. They were not to imagine that because no petition had hitherto come from the Protestant population of Ireland, that therefore they approved of the mea sure then before the House. Let the House recollect that Catholic Emancipation had been granted, and he would ask whether the effect had been to conciliate Ireland? Concession and conciliation had only produced fresh demands in Ireland. He would again call upon the House to pause, for let them recollect Facilis descensus Averni Nodes atque dies pastet atri janua ditis, Sed revocare gradum, superasque evadere ad auras Hoc opal, hie labor ed . . Sir 3. EA ST HOPE, who was very indistinctly heard in the gallery, said he had presented a petition, agreed to at one of the largest meetings ever held in the town which he had the honour to represent. One of the allegations of that petition was, that this Bill, if passed, would prove the first step to wards supplanting Protestantism by Popery. He could not help believing that these assertions were founded in error. He believed that the alarm which had spread through the country, with respect to this measure, was entirely unfounded. Vie be lieved that no Minister, however strong he might be with re spect to numbers in that house, would ever have a chance of car rying any measure, whose effect would be to endanger the exist ence or stability of the Protestant Church, but that was not the question they had to discuses. The plain question was, whether they should govern the Catholics of Ireland in a spirit of jus tice, kindness, and conciliation? It was not the question, whether the institutions of the country would be affected, but whether eight millions of people were to be cared for? The ques tion wau, whether they could resist the demands of the people for instruction? Those demands which they had a right to make. What objection could be made to the priests of Ireland being educated in their own country? Every one knew of the efforts which haul been made to drive those priests to other countries. They knew, and every one must know, the beggarly state of their principal College, and the state of degradation— he might add, destitution—into which the students there were thrown. He could not help feeling that it was worthy of remark their not seeing on those benches to support this measure, that Hon. Gentlemen, and those who were in immediate connexion with him, who had led the agitation for repeal of the Legis lative Union ; and he could not help feeling that there was good ground for expectation, if justice was done by this measure, that agitation would cease. What was Mr. O'Con nell's strength but Ireland's wrongs? What was an adequate and fit redress but kindness, conciliation, and justice? Those were the views which had influenced him, painful as it might be, in placing himself in opposition to those who had sent him to that House. As he entertained these opinions, and he entertained them strongly, he felt that it would be unworthy of the confidence of those who had sent him to that House, if he did not support that opinion by his vote, in spite of those of his constituents. fie believed that this measure would have the effect of suppressing a dangerous agitation— that it would cure complaint, that it would redress grievances, and inspire confidence in this country on the part of the Irish people. lie confessed that when a good gift was offered, he was not very much disposed to complain of the donor. In con sidering this question, he did not think it necessary to make any complaint of inconsistency on the part of the proposers of this measure, although he regretted that the Right lion. Gen tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had so badly 'is fended himself with respect to that subject.—( Great laughter. ) But he thought the less said on that matter the better. He gave credit to those who had embarked in this course for being actuated by good motives, and he did not stop to con sider whether there was consistency in their conduct or not. There was one thing he could not pass over in this discussion, and that was, the absence of those Gentlemen from whom they had so often heard of Ireland's grievances. He thought it was remarkable that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem ber for Cork, and those who were associated with him, were not in their places to support this measure. lie (Sir John Easthope) cared not for the expression of approbation —he cared much more for action. He believed that this measure would contribute towards the stilling of agitation. The people of Ireland would be in better temper with the people of England. When he said the people of Ireland, he :lid not mean the 800,000 Protestants in that country, but he meant the 8,000,000 of her inhabitants. He believed that the 800,000 Protestants of Ireland would be delighted to find that the 8,000,000 were more contended, that they had been taken from agitation to improvement, and that they had been in duced to take a course, which would increase the welfare and prosperity of this country. He believed that the interest of the whole empire was involved in this measure, and he be lieved that it was one, which every good, every reflecting, every honest, and every patriotic man ought to support. If the motion of his Honourable Friend the Member for Sheffield could be framed so as not to impede this measure he should give it his suppert ; but if it should have the effect of impeding this measure, he should feel it his duty to vote against it. - Lord JOCELYN said he was aware that his Noble Friend who had lately spoken, spoke the sentiments of a large portion of the Irish Protestants, and that he had spoken the sentiments of a body of men who from his (Lord Jocelyn's) earliest youth he had been taught to respect. If any stranger had en tered that House during his Noble Friend's speech, and who had been unaware of the subject under discussion, he might have been led to believe that the measure which was under discus sioa was one for the abolition of the Irish Church, if not for the destruction of the Protestant religion in Ireland. He (Lord Jocelyn) looked upon this measure in no such light. He looked upon this measure as a measure of justice and true policy. He felt some difficulty in addressing the House in a debate which had lasted upwards of four nights, for he felt that every argument had been put for ward both in support of, and in opposition to the measure. But he felt, at the same time, that in the position in which he was placed in Ireland, and considering those with whom he was connected, he was called upon to state the grounds upon which he gave his wares and cordial support to the measure which had been proposed by his Right . Hon. Friend. His supporting thi s me as u re wa s ' not incon sistent with his previous course. The very first vote which he had given in that House, and the first speech which he had addressed to it, were in support of the grant to Maynooth. Hon. Gentlemen had taxed his Right Hon. Friend, with whom he had the honour of acting, of changing his principles on this Bill. But it was an extraordinary fact, that during the whole course of this debate, not a single expression of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Go vesniment had been brought forward in .proof of this asser tion. When his Right Hon. Friend came into office, he declared that he felt Ireland would be his greatest difficulty. He subsequently dec'ared that it was his intention to con duct the Government of the country firmly but justly, and in a spirit of conciliation.—( Hear.) A short time after his accession to office an agitation broke forth in Ireland, which was likely to lead to a dismemberment of the empire, and his Right lion. Friend, without having reconrse to any new measure for the suppression of that agitation, effectually put, it down by the existing law. That agitation having been pat down, his Right Hon. Friend in order to keep his pro mise of conciliation which he had made, brought forward the present measure.--( Hear, hear.) For himself, even if he had not long ago formed his opinion on the merits of this measure, the arguments which he had heard during the present debate would have led him to the conclusion to which he had already arrived as to its justice and policy. He would appeal to any person connected with Ireland—he would appeal to his Noble Friend the Member for Bandon, whether the political evils of Ireland might not be traced to their religious prejudices? He therefore thought it a wise and sound policy to endeavour to connect the people to the State by the ties of gratitude. Seeing that there were seven millions of Roman Catholics in Ireland, that their priesthood had the greatest influence over them, whether for evil or good, it appeared to him to b e soun d policy to show that they sympathised with their wa n t s b y im proving the condition of those upon whom the people of Ire land looked with so much respect.—(Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Member for Newcastle had not commenced his speech by saying that he was opposed to the measure of his Right ibm. Friend, he (Lord Jocelyn) would be led to believe that he was a supporter of the measure, for his arguments were rather in favour of it. He admitted that there was a certain degree of compact, that there was no new principle involved, for the principle was admitted in reference to their policy to wards the Roman Catholics. With regard to the analogy which the Hon. Gentleman drew from the conduct of Prussia, he did not think that it applied, for the people of this country world not submit to have their children educated by the State. But with respect to the system of ecclesiastical education, he did not think the Hon. Gentleman would eentend that it was different in Prussia from what it was in Maynooth. With regard to the brilliant speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, he thought the Right Han. Gen tleman had no foundation in justice for his taunts upon his Right Hon. Friend, for he would appeal to that Right lion. Gentleman himself, or to the Noble Lord the Member for London, whether he considered himself responsible for the opinions of his tillowers —for instance, the opinion which we re promulgated at the Corn Exchange. He would give his cor dial support to the measure, because he believed it was just, and that it introduced no new prin iple, and that th e Roman Catholic priesthood were in want of the means of education. He had been in Maynooth two years ago, and he could confirm the statement which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend. He felt that those who had been brought up i n that institution, as they were brought up, could not have any they wo n strong feelings of attachment for a State which left them in suc h a condition. lie believed the religion which he himself pro fessed was the true one, and he felt such confidence in its truth that he had no fears of an additional g rant to it IN uldha l d ea bdee to the laynooth d o i ng trusted an any h i a n t i . p ur y y re to n : i h t at o r f el u ig n io it n in , heretofore, the Protestants and the Roman Catholi cs of Ire land.-( !leer, hear.) unitin g whip oreh closely Ai r. question, nßl b Gil eea Ts u a s i e the principle diiewasanx on i°u3t9test a fe w w or d s on thiswhich he she 17 I give his vote had not et been fully stated to the lieu ie, au I also be. cause he believed he would find himself on this occasion in the same lobby with those from whose principles he entirely dis sented. And, atter the speech of the Nebte Lord the Nlember for Bandon, he theught that any man who should vote on the same side with him ought to explain his grounds for doing so, for anything more intolerant, he might say irsene, is ith regard to the policy which oughtto be pursued towards Ireland he had never heard—( Hear)—a n d h e cou ld not b e li eve it till he had heard it that any pers on com i ng f rom I re l an d would have used such language.—(;; ear .) He did not think that this question should be favourably or unfavourably regarded on account of the party from which it proceeded. The Right. lion. Gen , tletnan had been c h arge d with inconsistency with regard to this measure, but he thought that the grounds for that charge arose from the unfortunate circumstances connected with the late Opposition, and which were of such a nature that he could not, when in power, propose any good measure without being charged with inconsistency of conduct.—( Hear, hear.) He (eft.. Bright) should consider the measure on its own merit!, without reference to party. His opposition to the measure was grounded on his ob,ection that the public taxes should be made to contribute to the support of ant institution purr ly ecclesias tical, or the rearing of the priesthoosi of any particular sect. lie opposed it because, from all he could learn from bosh side; of the House—from the public press—and even the organs of the Ministry, there was no argument used in defence ' of the present measure which would not be as valid in defence of further measures, not for the endowment of the Roman Catholic Collage of Maynooth only, but for the endowment and payment of all priests connected with that Church in England and Ireland.—(" Hear, hear," and " Oh, oh.") He admitted that the principle of the argument which justified the original grant would be good to the same extent to justify the present vote. The Right Hon. Baronet said the principle was already conceded, anti that the question now was as to a difference of a few thousands. But in ten rr twenty years hence some Prisie Minister would stand up and say that in 1795 the principle was conceded, aid again in 1845, and arguing from those two case.: it wou'd be easy to demonstrate that there ought to be the es tablishment of a new Church in Ireland, and this adding to the monstrous evils which had already flowed upon Ireland from one Church connected with the State.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet paid no great compliment to the Roman Catholic gentlemen of Ireland when he slid that the grant of 9,000/. was sufficient to damp their genero:ity. If 9,000/. damped their generosity 27,0001. would be likely to destroy it altogether ; and when he recollected that the Roman Catholic gentry in Ireland paid no income-tax— ( Cries of " Hear, hea." )—no property-tai—no assessed taxes.—(Hear, hear).—He thought that it ought not to be altogether impossible or unhooked for, that they should support a college for the education of the priesthood - of a religion to which they were so much devoted.—( Hear, hear.) But he also objected to the measure in another paint of view—a point of view which was totally opposed to that of the Hon. Member for Leicester, who approved of the measure because it weuld scothe the discontent of Ireland. Did that discontent arise from the priests in Maynooth not being sufficiently well educated ? He thought it arose snore from the fact of one-fourth of the population being paupers, and there being no regular employment. That was a state of things which was most disastrous, and he should not lik e a measure which would have the effect of making the wrong; of Ireland less known to the people of Ireland. One great means of influence possessed by those who agitated the wrongs of Ireland was to be found in the support which the Roman Catholic clergy gave to the various associations which had for their object the removal of those wrongs. His objec tion to the Bill was that it would tame down agitation—it was a " sop" given to the priests—it was " hush-money," that they might not proclaim the wrongs of the Irish people to the whole country, to Europe, and to the world. The Protestant Church In Ireland was at the root of the evils of that country ; and the Irish Roman Cathelie priests would thank them more for sweep ing out that foul blot than if they established their own church alongside of it.—( Hear, hear.) They had everything Pro testant. in Ireland—they had a Protestant clique dominant there —they had a Protestant Viceroy, who distributed all the places and emoluments of office amongst that clique—they had Pro testant Judges win polluted the stream of just ice.—( Cries of " Oh, oh.") They had Protestant magistrates, before whom in a thousand cases no Catholic peasant could hope for justice. —( Renewe i marks of dissent.) They had Protestant ex terminating landlords, whose extermicating principles chiefly fell upon the Roman Catholics upon their estates.—( No, no.) They had more than that—they had a Protestant soldiery who, at the beck and command of a Protestant priest, killed a son even in the presence of a widowed mother.__(" Hear, hear," and marks of disapprobation.) Why, these things were notorious —he merely stated them without bringing any proof to establish their accuracy—(Hear, hear)— but the person who was not convinced of their truth must have paid very little attention indeed to passing events.— ( Hear, hear.) The consequence of all this was, the extreme discontent of the people of Ireland; and because they were not prepared to take those measures which would be really just towards Ireland, anti do away with that Protestant Establish ment which was certainly the mos t dis g ra ceful institution which existed in Christendom. Becau se that House was not pre paredtoadnod that, t i e t f la n % going to muzzle the watch-dogs of the Mr. O'Connell the sympathy of the people, pri , sts, in rousing the people o f Ireland to a sense of their iwrongs.tl e ine Theyof fgG to give the priest s o f I re l a nd a t reek, in order that th e y might l L at eren become as tame as the priests of Suffolk and D orse t, who, when the horizon was blazing a roun d with incendiary fires , were got had not dared to speak of the wr stage of the people amongst whom they lived. (Hear. hear.) And when pauperism was staring them in the face, the priests would not dare to assist in wresting from an oppressive Go vernment those rights to which the people had a just claim. He objected altogether against the system of paying priests for any purpose, under any circumstances, or at any time what ever. Nothing could be more disastrous to civil liberty— nothing more injurious to religion itself, than such a system ; and if they wanted to make the Catholic priesthood of Ireland as useless for all practical purposes as the paid priests of their own Establishment, he asked them, by all meatte, not only to give this 26,000/. a-year, but as much as the Government could induce the House to grant. His firm conviction was that Ireland suffered from one Church, and not from having two churches. He admitted that equality must be obtained by the abolition of one or by the establish ment of the other, for whilst there was a Church with a small congregation and overpaid ministry, costly establish , ments and little work, it was impos-ible they could have peace arid contentment in that country. But this measure, notwith standing all that had been said by lion. Gentlemen marmite, wits for the purpose of staving off the nece city to which they had nearly arrived, of making some change in the Establish ment. If it were possible to give to the Catholic priests a por tion of the public funds, as they had already given the regium donuts to the Presbyterians of the north of Ireland, they would find them united with the Established Church, as the Presbyterians then were, against any step taken for the pur pose of overturning the whole system of Church and State in , that country. lie was of opinion that the experience of a State Church was net of that favourable character which would admit of their going further in that direction.—( Hear.) They had a State Church in this country, and many excellent men were connected with its ministry, but from time immemorial a spirit of persecution,' of a most deplorable and inju ious character, had existed, and even now did exist, pressing with relentless malignity, as in the cnse of an unfortunate shoemaker in Cambridge, who re fused to pay, out of his hard earnings, some 16s. or 18e. for Church-rates.—(Hear, hear.) This poor man was pursued from court to court with a relentless spirit, which, one would hope, did not exist at this period. Some Hon. Gentlemen applied hard words to the Catholic Church, but they should re collect that all the errors which they attributed to it, found a home and a warm welcome in the Established Church. In Wales, three-fourths of the whole people were dissenters from that Church. In the manufareuring districts of Lancashire and York shire, the Established Chung' was but an unwieldy machine, unable to minister to the growing wants and intelligence of the people. In Scotland, where the most perfect model of a church establishment was said to exiet, they had there a Seces sion Church—a Relief Church—a. Free Church, and that which the State upheld by compulsion—the Residuary Church. If the English, and Scotch, and Irish Churches of this description did so little good—if they had been productive of such serious evils, he would ask whether it was proper they should do any thing for the establishment of another? If he were at all in favour of this endowment, he would vote for this Bill with all his heart. He believed that if the principle of endowment was right, a more just or wise measure than the present was never intredusted to the Parliament of this country— ( Hear, hear)—because lie had no doubt that the effect must be in soale degree to create a kindlier feeling on the part of the people of Ireland toward; the Government. —( Hear, hear.) He regretted as much as any man could regret that there should be anything in the agitation against the Bill that tended to impair tint feeling.—(Hear, hear.) There were two parties opposed to it. One party represented by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House—they stated that they considered the Catholic faith as a thing which should net be established, or helped by the State; but when their own Church was absorbing millions of the public money, whilst millions of their countrymen refused to enter its doors, he asked how could they for a moment object to the passing of this measure which would give some sort of show of assistance to that Church in Ireland to which millions of the people of that country belonged ? There was another party of non-con formists in Great Britain who were opposed to the measure, anti he was sorry to say (it would be uncandid of him not to say) that these non-conformists allowed a spirit to enter into their agitation, which showed they did not understand, or did not feel, the force of that great principle of nonconformity for which their forefathers struggled.—( Hear, hear.) A large class, more especially a portion of the Wesleyan body, did not re pudiate the principle of endowment ; if those who remained persisted in agitation, it ought to be against the principle of en dowment altogether. When the Dissenters looked back to all their forefathers had suffered, even within a late period, they would be so recreant to their own principles as to merit the contempt of this House, and of the world, if they did not come forward and apply their own principle, and dissent from and oppose, to the utmost of their ability, the measure now under the consideration of Parliament. He ( Mr. Bright) would oppose the measure in every stage, simply on this ground, that he believed the principle of endow ment was most unjustifiable and injurious to the country. Whatever might be the effect of his opposition on any Govern ment—whether on that of the Right Hun. Baronet, or any pre ceding or succeeding one—there was no attachment to party or Government which would induce him for one moment to tam per with what lie held to be the greatest and dearest principle which any man or body of men could take up.—( Hear, hear. ) When he looked back at history, he saw that all they possessed of liberty did not issue from the portals of cathedral s and parish churches, but from the conventicle; ; and when a good and liberal measure was to be carried in the House, it was generally carried by the representatives of the non-conformists of Great Britain. They must see from the past and the present, that State religions had been always opposed to civil and religious liberty; that they, in a great measure, destroyed the vitality of religion ; and, holding these opinions, it was impossible he could give a vote which should in the smallest degree give any assistance to the principle of endowment. Ia conclusion, he would say to the Dissenters of England that in all opposition to this or any such measures they should form no union—make no alliance with men in favour of endowment —they should stand on the great. pure, and u iassailable principle of non-endowment ; for that they should manfully contend; and if they continued to do so, the time might come—nay, the time would come —.when that principle would be adopted by the Legislature of the country..h Lord J MANNERS Fait the Hon. Member had charac terised the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Bandon in terms which, if they had fallen front any other Hon. Member, he should have considered as being rather strong ; but it ap. peered that. they were applied to the premises rather than to the conclusion, fir in the latter both seemed to agree. The Noble Lord having displayed considerable knowled ge of the subject as well as theological ability, he was at first surprised to hear such terms applied by the lion. Member ; bat when he had listened to some of his statements his surprise ceased, for the Hon. Gentleman appealed to English history, and asked what traces of religious liberty were to lie found i n conneeion with our cathedrals and churches? Why, was it to the eon _ ventieles of the English nation that we owed Magna Charta ? ( Hear.) Ile could not congratulate his Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford upon scuds an ally as t h e lion. Member for Durham.—( Hear, and a laugh.) But to pass from that Hon. Member, who certainly spoke under very unfavourable circumstances to himself, he would endeavour to address himself to the subject immediately befor e t h e House. He was one of those few Tory Membsrs who, when in the year 1813 the affairs of Ireland were discussed at great length, anti spider cireqmstanees qi eo oediiiery gravity in that House, ventured to express a strung opinion that there were remedial measures, which a Tory Alinister such as Strafford, Tyrconnell, and Pitt, would not have ob jected to; and who, when her Majesty's Ministers stated in reply that concession had reached its utmost limits, backed that opinion by an hostile vote. lie now, therefore, thought it right to come forward, not shrinking from bearing his share, humble and insignificant as it might be, of that odium to which her Majesty's Ministers were subjected, and to vindicate to the ',PA of his power the course they were taking.—( Cheers. ) fie felt that in the present wreck of psrties, and the general confusion of all classes of men, it was a matter 01 no ordinary difficulty to form a definite and distinct principle of action, and to carry that principle consistently into execution. But he did net think it impossible to overcome that difficulty, and he would endeavour to elucidate the position, which, as a member of the English Church, he thought he could, consistently, take on this question ' and to reply to some of the arguments which had been advances' against the Government proposal, with but one great assertion, which combined in such an inharmonious concert of opposition to this measure all classes of Pro testant Dissenters, he had no concern--he meant that assertion that the Roman Catholic religion was the religion of anti-Christ, and that, therefore, any support of the College of Maynooth was treason against Christianity— ( Hear, hear.) Those who held that opinion were not only rtglit, but were imperatively called upon to wage the war they were waging against this grant. But as no reasoning would have any effect upon such a conviction, he should pass from that consideration, contenting himself with asserting that the Church of England nowhere imposed so tremendous a belief upon its members, and that he was altogether uninflu enced by it.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Bandon had represented the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland as in a schismatical position. But, even admitting it was, he thought no one on looking to history could venture to deny that it was they—the people of England, the Puritans of Elizabeth and of Cromwell, the inventors of the penal code— they who gave that nation an English-speaking clergy, and who were at least venially responsible for that schismatical position. It was in vain that he looked into history for a pre cedent to show that the Church of Rome in Ireland could now be looked upon as guiltily schismatical; nor if he looked into the formularies and doctrines of our Church, or read the works of her greatest divines, did he find anything which should make him think that he was acting disloyally towards her in supporting the proposed grant to Maynooth.—( Hear.) That Chureli regarded the Roman Catholic Church as a true, though not altogether a pure branch of the great Church universal, and he thought that the sentiment contained in the following lines could not be too often repeated:— Speak gently of our sister's fall ; Who knows but gentle love May win her at our patient call, The surer way to prove ?" ( Hear, hear. ) But, to come to the peril in which the Irish Church stood, which had been often alluded to in the coot se of the debate, but by no one with such ability and manly eloquence as by the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire. That the Irish Church should be imperrilled or her stability endangered by this grant, he (Lord J. Manners) could not believe; but, when he said that, he was far from denying that he regarded the position of the Irish Church as one of imminent and great peril. She was indeed in danger ; but it was from herself—from her own children that that peril had arisen o —(Cheers.) It was not from the Vatican; it was nut from the Jesuits; it was not from Maynooth ; bat it was from her own sons—from those who would have her separate herself from the whole of Catholic Christendom, that the Irish Church was endangered • and when he saw, as he did see the other day, that venerable Prelate who occupied so wor thily the see which Jeremy Taylor had filled before him, com plaining openly that the faithful clergy over whom he pre sided were subjected by the Protestant laity to persecution, to slander, and to tyranny, he was compelled, indeed, to own that the Irish Church was in danger ; but whilst he thought so, he was inevitably reminded of the dying words of Arch bishop Laud :—" Poor Church of England ! she bath lion ri-hed, and hath been a refuge for neighbouring Churches when the storm was upon them ; but now she is in a storm and strait herself, and God only knows whether or how she shall get out ; and worse than a storm from without, she is like an oak cleft to shivers by wedges made out of its own body, and that Church, which all the machinations of the Jesuits could nut ruin, is fallen into danger by her own."—( Cheers.) Fur t hese considerations lie felt free as a Churchman to vote either for or against the grant. When lie coesidered the question on the grounds of state policy, he refused to be precluded from supporting the grant by the assertion of the exclusive Pro testantism cf the State. T hose who liked might refer all the glory and renown of the old English monarchy back to the Dutch conquest of 1638, which subverted it, but he claimed a right to ascend higher, anti to consider it just as if William 111. had died Stadtholder of Holland.—( Hear, and a laugh.) What was the special form that the question then assumed ? They found that for the last fifty years 7,000,000 of Irish Ro man Catholics had been ministered unto by a priesthood edu cated in Ireland, and so educated at the express desire of the State. He had said " exprese desire" of the State ; but he thought he might have made use of a still stronger expression, and that he might have said by " the compulsion of the State;" for not only by their penal laws, which forbade the education of Roman Catholic priests abroad, but by every means which the State could devise, was the foreign education of the Ro nrhoieraon; e. t) C u r a T, s h h o ew li hN e ?ophbrl Noble vi e s Lo t uos Lord ddpt he most rehAalp s e e s, dneubnleloirug for t y re nL p i r ‘s. : e v mr e pe r o s toehd hado.—n (n3tliloeevmaerd., bers of that House as to the extraordinary policy which the English State thought it wise to pursue upon that subject. TLey were now told, however, that Irish Roman Catholic priests ought to be educated abroad. He wanted to know if those who said so were prepared to show any funds and colleges in existence by which that education could be obtained.—( Hear, hear.) The returns to which he had alluded would, he imagined, show that when at the close of the late war a claim of 160,0301. was made upon the French Government to compensate for the loss of funds devoted to Roman Catholic educational purposes, that great man who had been appointed referee upon the occasion—the Duke of Wellington—was compelled to strike his pen through that item, and to declare, that as the law of England then stood, that sum of money must he altogether lost and con tisca'ed.—( Cheers. ) What were the arguments which were adopted on the ground of state policy to prevail on them to discontinue this grant? It was said, that the e xp er i men t o f an Irish educa t ion fur the priesthood had now been tried for 50 years, and that it had turned nut a failure. It was very easy, however, to cry out that it was a failure, and it was very easy to declaim again t the dirt and disloyalty of Maynooth, and to draw striking camparisons between the education and manners of the old foreign priests and of those of the prevent day; but he (Lord J. Manners) doubted, in the first place, whether that failure were so great and palpable as it bad been described ; 2 ly, whether, even if it were so great,.the Right Hon. Baroeet at the head of the Government might not be justified in laying the blame rather at the door of St. Stephen's than at the door of St. Patrick's ; and, idly, he doubted whether the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to take to remedy that failure for the future might not be a wiser one than that which the opponents of the grant advised.—( Hear, hear.) But as to the failure ; what was it ? Why, that the college in which they educated 400 young- men at 9,0001. a year did not possess a ll the learning of Padua, mingled with all the graces of Paris ! It bad been said further, also, that the Maynooth clergy were deficient in loyalty ; that they did not inculcate those principles of passive obedi ence and non-resistance to the laws which they should wish to sm. He (Lord J. Manners) denied that that was the fact to any great extent, and those pas toral letters which this winter had proceeded from the Titular Archbishops of Armagh and Dublin might, he thought, be taken as some proof of the spirit which their clergy inculcated, and of the doctrines which they taught.— (Cheers.) He might be wrong in his supposition ; but he believed that no harm would accrue either to Conciliation hall or to Covent-garden, if copies of those letters, written in gold, were suspended in the most conspicuous parts of those buildings.—(Cheers.) His firm belief was, that it was not the doctrine taught at Maynoeth which prevented the Roman Catholic presthood from being so successful as, he was sure, all must wish that they should be in keeping down agita tion in Ireland; but, it was the struggles after life—it was the sense of undeserved inferiority—it was the anomaly of their position, which broke down, so to speak, the theoreti cal loyalty which they had learned in the poverty-stricken cloisters of Maynooth, and which had compelled them, by means which could not be approved, to seek, if possible, the political regeneration of their country.—(Cheers.) He would admit then, so far, that Maynooth might be said to have failed ; but he would ask in all sober seriousness, could it be said to have failed in the highest and most important objects for which it bad been instituted? Had the priesthood of Ire land educated in Maynooth failed in their greatest anti holiest functions? had the morality of the country suffered under their tutelage? Were the men less sober—the women less chaste, than under the old:regime ? Or were they, in spite of all the circumstances of penury and want sander which they had been educated, still fulfilling those holy and sacred functions with a zeal and a devotion and a self-denial which could not be otielpiyoeeaspvvruesewhs.di pause before euhb t ll o eodlfhw h of e e e: te a nhh r teta , rinedl surpassed?—(Cheers.) Were they still, he would ask them, in the words of his Hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury to the Trials people— The priests—those gentle priests and good, their fathers 'midstyti:n in nshu w pdec o i and eot r edpn l oreoft mhteaeplsyltwt contemptuous onodheutie: depressing the ptrnirmltel ses :moiGceneocgonnudedpiieyrnic circum stances they revere?" position, s_t l L a o n o t the priesthood of a religion which, he feared, from the lan guage that had fallen from some, they neither esteemed nor understood.—( Hear, hear .) Then, it had been said, and with great force, in that work from which he might be per mitted to say that so many of the arguments against this mea sure had been drawn—he meant the remarkable and learned work of Dr. Christopher Wordsworth—(" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp)—hat whereas by all other countries, whether Protestant or Roman Catholic, in which the Roman Catholic religion was acknowledged, and sanctioned, and sup ported by the State, every precaution was taken, and every safeguard was devised, to secure the temporal supremacy of the monarch against the Roman power—in these realms alone no such precautions were taken, and that here alone was " free trade with Rome." " The English nation," it continued, " pays for Maynooth, and the Pope governs it; shall not the nation either cease to support or the Pope to rule it ?" " The priest takes a vow of obedience to the lues eedeslteeot Roman pontiff; the bishop swears to maintain the Papacy, and to preserve the rights and royalties of St. Peter; the archbishop may hot exercise his sacred functions till he has received the pa/Una& of Rome. Priests, bishops, and archbishops, are all the vassals of Rome, rather than the subjects of Queen Victoria, and yet it is to them that we make over the exclusive management of the establishments for the education of the Roman Catholic priests." Those were the premises. He ( Lord J. Manners) admitted them to be true ; but what was the conclusion at which the Rev. Gentleman and those who agreed with him arrived? —to have nothing whatever to say to that enormous power which they themselves admitted to be so greatly influential and formidable. It was a case, in his opinion, for a course of conduct totally different. He would sa y to these gentlemen— " Admit frankly and freely into your union and inter surse that power which you acknowledge to be so great and extensive. Accredit a Minister to the Vatican—receive a Nuncio at St. James's—and see whether you cannot thus do and childish weakness to ignore the existence of a Inc what you never can effect if you continue by the most misera blenarehy which was great before England was a kingdom, and to which is yet permitted the exercise of such tremendous power over over every portion of your vast dominions. —("ear ' i l him eo) Those were some of the conclusions which weighed with d to that of many lion. Members, to some question, far oppose to reply ; but of whose arguments he had thus endeavoured h answer those arguments fur himself, e while he had attempted to ost cordial concurrence in coming to a decision on that grave and most important coul.i not refrain from expressing his m favour of the grant. or Newark of some of the arguments in the grant b a himself, he could say that he did not vote for . ee u e would be to Protestantise Ireland, btlt he he thought its effects . . and confiding spirit to which the in the repudiation of his Right lion. Friend the Merober v tor did so in that frank, generous, Right lion. Baronet had appea led ; and whilst hp was on that part Right Hon. Baronet must permit him ( Lord J. Manners ) toremind him that the Catholic lrish Roman Church was n o t the only ecclesiastical bo d y i n this e mpire to which the of his subject, that English State should extend its support—to which it, were ad visfele that she shnuid be actuated in her conduct by a frank, generous, and confiding spirit also.—( Hear, hear.l The Right Hon. Baronet and the House might beliee, - e him ( Lor'd Nan ners), that the oppcs' s tion and great resistance given to the pre- Setif - grant by so large, and he admitted so reTeetahhi, a body of the clergy of the Established Church was not the less deter mined, sustained and profound, because they felt and believed it was based upon a principle and regulated by conduct far dif ferent from that which had been pursued with reference to the Catholic Church of Er gland—( Hear, hear)—not to the Church of England in this country alone, but in Canada, in Ireland, in India, "in Australia, and, above all, in Wales.—( Loud cheers.) Yes, the English Church did feel herself aggrieved, insulted, and wronged—( Loud cries of 6 . Hear, hear")—and although he did not hope that this grant would Protestsntise Ireland, he was not altogether sure that he might not draw an augury front this magnanimity towards Maynooth and the Church of Rome of a speedy recurrence to a fairer mode of action, and a more generous conduct towards the Church of England—( Hear, hear)—and whilst disposed to look upon it as the exhibition of the olire branch to the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland, he was also happy to view it a• the dawn of that happy day—the advent of confi dence and peace to the English Church.—(Cheers.) He voted for that grant, because he did not conceive hinssell called upon as a Churchman to oppose it. He voted for it because he recog nised it as the type of an honest intentio n t o do a measure o f justice towards the Roman Catholics of Ireland, whom the people of this country had so long oppressed and injured, and because he thought it might tend, however remotely, to accelerate the advent of that happy day when, in the mutual confession of their folly and their pride, and with tears of sorrow and of joy, they should kneel down before the common altars of their common faith—(Hear, hear)—a con summation which, he believed, could alone avail to Christianise our enormous and expanding empire of commerce and manu facture—a consummation which, he believed, could alone avail to give to labour its just reward, to heal the sores and bind up the bleeding wounds of Ireland, and to render England again what she was once, the queen of the nations, towering aloft amid the empires of the world, striking her roots down deep and wide into the riche-t memories of the past, and spreading her fruitful branches to the measureless expanse of an unseen futurity.—( Loud cheers. ) Mr. RUTHERFORD, who could scarcely be heard in the gallery, in consequence of the noise prevailing at the bar and in the body of the House, was understood to say that he could not think of giving a silent vote upon a subject like the pre sent, for whether he looked to the history of Ireland or to the original institution of the College of Maynooth, in every aspect he found that this measure was imperatively called for. This Rill was an earnest to Ireland that she would now reap the fruits of her union with this country—a union which might be supposed, if they looked merely to the past, to have been en tered into for the mere purposes of oppression and degradation, but which now, lie trusted, would be used for nobler pur poses. He might not please his constituents by the vote he intended to give on this subject, but minor considerations must give way before the performance of his duty. lie should. therefore, support the second readi se of the measure. Mr. SMYTHE—I remember to have read, Sir, a remark made by the Right. Hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, when he proposed a measure somewhat analogous to this—l mean when he brought forward the Catholic Relief Bill—when he stated, that one of the reasons which induced him to anticipate that the measure must, sooner or later, be car ried, was the fact that all the young men of the day who bad recently come from the universities were in favour of Catholic emancipation. I think it rather strange that in the course of these debates, and in the Right lion. Gentleman's own Go vernment, we may remark the same distinctions. We see the Right Hon. Gentleman, who has upon this occasion pur sued a liberal, a wise, and a conciliatory course, followed in that liberal, and wise, and conciliatory course by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War (Mr. S. Herbert), anti by my Noble Friend who has addressed the Honse this even ing, the Member for Lynn ( Lord Jocelyn), whilst at the same time we find the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, still so true to his ancient reminiscences, that he cannot speak of the Roman Catholic priests, even in bringing in a measure of grace and of concession, without say ing that the education at Maynooth was as disgraceful to the country which affords the means of sustaining this education as it was degrading to the priests who receive it ; and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland speaks of the measure as an act of charity.—( Hear, hear.) Now, feeling strongly that the subject is most important, it is on no such grounds that I can brine myself to support it. I remember that, two years ago, as has been stated by my Noble Friend, I, in common with him, anticipated the Right Hon. Gentleman's suggestion. Unfortunately my watch was upon this, as upon other occasions, five minutes too fast. And I need not tell the House that there is a considerable difference between going before or going in company with the Right Hon. Gentleman. —(Cheers.) I remember upon that occasion to have incurred much odium and some misconstruction from those who believed, with too fond a credulity, that " concession had reached its utmost limit"—(Cheers)—and I particularly remember an attack of the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool (Lord Sandon)—and I can assure the Noble Lord I do not remember it for its severity—upon the rashness and forwardness of youth. I think I might now retort upon the rashness and forwardness of riper age, on the proverbial extravagance of young conver sions;and protest against the principle of restitution, which, if the Noble Lord means it, he ought to vote against this grant as an absurdity ; and which, if he do not mean it, is a wanton in sult of the Member for Liverpool against and to the Irish Pro testant Establishment. But the Noble Lord is an hereditary waverer.—( Cheers. ) However, if I was a worse courtier than the Noble Lord, I was a better judge. I never doubted that the Right Hon. Gentleman, who has been characterised by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Shef field as the great doer of his age—(Laughter)—as he had done Emancipation so would he do Maynooth.—( Cheers.) I was not deceived by the extreme Protestantism of the Right Hon. Gentleman's adolescence—he was then the Member for the University of Oxford. Nor am I among those who believe that the Right Honourable Gentleman is the enemy of Ireland; although it is susceptible of some doubt whether Ireland is not the enemy of the flight lien. Gentleman. Ile treats it so considerately, so caressingly—almost as caressingly as if it was an opposition ; he carries all the measures that it wants, and among them none was ever wiser, or juster, or more necessary than the present Bill. And among the many contrasts which the Right Hon. Gentleman's lone career affords, there is none which history will record more favourably than the contrast between Mr. Secretary Peel and Sir Robert Peel, the Prime Minister of England.—(Hear, hear.) The young and pro scribing partisan has become the clement and beneficent ruler the young Octavius of intolerance is merged in the Augustus of conciliation and of grace.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman may in this matter rely on the sincerity of my con gratulations, because I know full well how much they will cost me. I know full well what odium I incurred by my sugges tions in a former year among an archiepiscopal constitu ency not to be well aware that I shall again be at issue with that same archiepiscopal constituency. But, although I prefer my own convictions to theirs in this matter, lam not surprised that theirs are so strong, conaideriag the pains that have been taken to excite them.—( Hear, hear.) The pamphlets, the tracts, the speeches, the itinerant lec turers trading on their own imaginative crapulence : even a Member of this House has condescended to string together a bead-roll of indecencies—a rosary of abominations. Suppose the Irish were to retaliate ; suppose they were to compile a cento from the class- books of our own colleges and schools ; suppose you take the celebrated line of Euripides— " My tongue has swornit, but my mind is unworn." —(Cheers.) Suppose we take a passage from Terence, an ode of Catullus about Mamurra, a sentiment from the sympo sium of Plato, or a morality of Paley, it would be quite as easy, 1 suspect, to alarm the Wesleyans and affright the Inde pendents.—(Laughter.) Away, then, with this pharisaical hypocrisy, which objects to books of examination, catecheti catty distributed, but which flings its Lemprieres broadcast among children; which strains at the calendar, but swallows the mythology.--( Loud cheers.) But whilst the means are thus glaringly unfair, I am far from underrating their effects. I believe it would be as easy now to raise the No- Popery cry as it was in 1507, or 1827, or 1829. Would that it might be under the control of such as the Noble Lord the Member for the county of Dorset (Lord Ashley), whose speech of this evening was characterised by that great ability, and that grave sense of responsibility, which always mark the speeches of the Noble Lord; but this will not be. Would also that these No-Popery enthusiasts—and Ido not mean there are any enthusiasts in this House—( A laugh)—would, in their calmer hour, if they ever have one, look back for the last 200 years, and pass in review all the men they have be lieved in from Titus Oates down to Lord George Gordon— (Cheers)—and from Lord George Gordon down to our own time ; and then I think they would agree with me, that all the superstition is not all upon one side. if at the same time they should take a retrospective glance at their literature, their architecture, and their taste, I think they will be less satisfied than they now are that they, and they alone, are the providen tial instruments of England's greatness.—( Hear.) 'f hey will at any rate find out that they have always been, as they always wal be, betrayed by their own leaders. The moment a great Protestant champion enters this lime, still flushed with the plaudits of Exeter-hall, with the doxology perhaps still wring ing in his ears, determined to carry all before him, somehow or other I observe common sense acts upon him as religion acts upon a Dervish • he goes round—( Great chee rs a n d l aug ht er ) —he kick s a little, but still he goes; ound ; it is a Parliamen tary polka, now practisin e , by the whole of that bench, fro m th e Right lion. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cam bridge down to the lion. Member for the county of Selkirk. —( Renewed laughter.) And this it is, this going round of the great Protestant champions, which renders this " No-Popery" agitation, notwithstanding all its zeal and all its respectabi lity—to my mind synonyms—( Bear)—despite all its numbers, null and inefficient. But of late years another opposition has arisen to this grant, which, for want of a better name, I will call the "Anglican opposition." This party was weak in the House, but it was strong in dialectitians, strong in the Uni versities, strong among young men ; and it was supposed, up to Friday last, to have been represented by the Right Hon. Gentleman my Right Hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Gladstone) ; and it also claimed illustration from his re tirement from office : " De civitate decedere malnit quam de sententia." He left the Cabinet, but he kept his theory.— (Cheers.) And now does any Hon. Gentleman believe the Right Hon. Gentleman has really abandoned his theory ? Abandoned his theory—yes, Sir—as a certain society abandons a country to return to it on the first convenient opportunity. In that cloud of variegated phraseology, in which he as usual the other night wrapped and shrouded his mysterious divinity— (Cheers )—there was only one phrase which was intelligible to vulgar mortals like myself. He said, that notwithstanding his most cherished convictions, he would vote in favour of this Bill. So then it is most clear that his most cherished convictions and his votes are at issue. But about the mere vulgarity of voters, the Right Hon. Gentleman cares little; for uoon this very question he has voted all ways. Hevoted first against, then in favour of the grant; he then weennt the of office because the grant was to be increased ;. then measure involving the increased grant came to a the second read ing—he did not vote at all; we are now it.at I reading; he is prepared to vote in favour o f And h is himself— quite Hon. Gentleman—is the Right lion. Gentleman t im"'flit; quite sure, that upon the third reading he will not equally good reasons for voting against t he m easure?— ( Laughter and cheers.) But , w i th re g ard to " his most cherished feelings," I must be permitted to say one word, and that is, that these feelings are cherished, not by himself alone, but by many converts whom he has convinced, and by many fanatics, whose reason his eloquence has helped to fascinate. And what is their p osition is an What i s th e princi ple laid down by them ? It an old enemy with a Lew face ; it is the worst principle of absolutism, disguised in the worst language of the Jesuits; it is the principle of Alva and the language of Escobar. It begins in a fiction, that because the State has once placed its a ffi ance to a particular systein is bound to perpetuate that system, t o t h e exclusion of all others ti to all time. This, to be true, should be universally true ; and if it were to prevail at this moment in this country, we should still have the Ptolemaic system in our observatories, and Sir Isaac Newton might only be known somewhat as the Right Hon. Gentleman may he known —as a crotchety theologian, but a capital master of the Mint.—(Laughter.) But if this i t r i b n e c g i i p n l es in b egin s in fictio n , it end s i n pa i ns an d penalt i es ; if i sophistry, it ends in persecution; it is, in one Word, the old, vicious, cruel, effete principl e o f un if orm ity.— (Cheers.) Sir, whet ' hertlt Right Hon. Gentleman argued against or i n f avour of this principle I think his position is equally untenable.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Ho n. Gentle man, as an author, wrote in favour of the principle of uni formity; but the a rgument ma d e use o f b y the Fi rst Lord of the Treasury in the introduction of this measure was unan swerable. That argument, characterised by an Hon. Member as " the colonial argument," was this—that the State has. fur 150 years endowed Presbyterianism in &Aland, paid Presbyterianism in Ireland, and acted, as we heard last Aht froM an Honourable Member ( Mr, Hume), throughout the whole of our vast peninsula of India, and else where in our dependencies. But the Right lion. Gentleman ( Mr. Gladstone), or rather the Right Hon. Author, had a vision of his own ;he was daz z led by the recollection of eleven years in our history, when, to use his own phraseology, many gentlemen of " the Church had exclusive possession of the pre- duets of Parliament." And when do you suppose were these eleven years? In the reign of Queen Elizabeth?—ln the reign of Queen Ann?—ln the reign of that consul Planeus King George 111., of whom we have heard so mueh ?—( A laugh.) Not so; but in the reign of Charles H., at that happy period when England was the minion and hireling of France; when Ireland was treated as a conquest and the Irish as savages, and when a very energetic member of the very energetic family of Grahams was sabreing Cameronians, and dragooning Scotland into episcopacy. —(Cheers, and laughter.) These were the anni mirabiles of the Right Hon. Gentleman ; I am sure the Right Hon. Home Secretary will not wish for their recurrence. But the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) on Friday last ad vanced his reasons in favour of this measure ; and I must say. if ever a good cause was defended by a bad apology it was upon 'hat occasion, because the Right Hon. Gentleman again came forwaiel with the old principle of "a compact and a pledge." A pledge ! And what was Catholic emancipation ? What seas the abolition of ten bishoprics in Ireland? What the Charitable Bequests Bill the other day ?—( Hear.) What You will not hear the trumpet-tongue of the Legislature, year after year, and session after session, proclaiming toleration ; but you pretend to be guided by the whisper of a Minister, and the hear-,ay of an engagement as old as the eighteenth century'. —( Laughter, and cheers.) But, upon these refinements, I would fain address the Right Hon. Gentleman in language made use of by a great trade Minister to a great theologian with a theory.—(A laugh.) Colbert said to Bossuet—when he was urging some of those arguments which eventually ended in the revocation of the edict of Nantes—" All this belongs to your conscience of the Sorbonne ; there is another conscience , within you—let that speak." So now I would fain say to the Right Hon. Gentleman—" All this belongs t ► your conscience of Oxford; there is another c onsc i ence w i t hi n you —l et t h at speak."---Loud cheers.) It will tell the Right Hon .urable Gentleman to put things before him more broadly and to the purpose ; it will tell him that an ardent and a susceptible people, whose alliance with their priesthood was solemnised in a time of tribulation and misfortene, is not to be divorced from them in the firs; dawn of a happier era.—(llear, hear.) Not open violence— not " the vicious perfection" of the law—not arms Bilis, not coercion Bins, not laws of mortmain by which you harassed them, not eppres constructions by which you robbed•thein— none of these things have been able to " put asund sr " those whom persecution " had joined together."—( Cheers.) And Sir, this more insidious design will also fail, which is lisping with all the insolent euphuism of an old proprietary, that you will disarm the Irish priest by making him a gentleman.— ( Renewed cheers.) A gentleman! that .s, something niece of an abbe, and something less of a cure—something more of a chaplain, and something less of a priest—one who will look more to the patron, and care less for the poor; in a word, " a man of the world," but. not of the next world.—( Cheers.) This design w;11 also fail ; or, it it succeed, I pity your short.. sightedness. Elevate the Irish priest from the sphere in which he moves, and acts, and has his useful being, and you destroy his influence. It is because he is of the commons that he lead: the commons —( clear.) I know that upon this matter I am at issue with nearly the whole of the House—(No, no) — but I know that a greater legislator (with all respect be it said) than any in this House—that that Napoleon, of whom it will be said that not the least of his many miracles was that he gave back Christianity to France—has recorded his opinion that a priesthood for the people should be of the people.--(Gies of " Hear, hear. ') Besides, Sir, I have myself seen the prelacy of Ireland. It was on the day of a great solemnity at Maynooth. Plain men they were, poor men ; the same euphuism might brand them as vulgar men. There was about them none of that splendour and array for which the Church of Rome is so rebuked ; no pomp, no repre sentation. But. lam wrong ; there was representation ; but it was not the representation of so many thousands a year, but of so many millions of souls.—( Hear, hear.) It is these men that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) makes his friends. They will remember that, notwithstanding a powerful opposition, lie brought forward a measure of conciliation with out restriction and without conditions.—( Cheers.) And in that hour of emergency and crisis, which those who look at nations and not at Cabinets know cannot be distant—in that hour of emergency and crisis, when your entente cordiale with France shall fail you (as it surely will fail you), you will hue an entente cordiale with Ireland to supply its place.—(Load cheers.) In that day, when the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) shall be called upon to rally round him the energies of this mighty empire —for he alone, notwithstanding al this temporary clamour, represents its acquirements—( Cheers) — he will be able to adopt to enemies of England, be they at Washington, or be they at Paris, the solemn anti beautiful lan guage of the Noble Lord the Member for London,—" Our Queen reigns over a united people."--( Continued cheering.) Mr. ItEDINGTON, as an Irish Member, and a Roman Catholic, wished to express his opinion, which interested the religion which he professed. Whatever turn the debate may take, the question would be of the greatest importance to Ireland. As an Irish Roman Catholic, he wished to express his gratification on account of the tamper, tone, and manner in which this question had been discussed. The eloquent Mem ber for Canterbury, and the Noble Lord the Member for Newark, had made speeches which ought to be models to the peol le of this country ; they would have the effect of recon ciling two nations which, if they were to be united, ought to be united in every sense of the word. Ile heard, at the same time, opinions which ought not to weigh in that assembly on the measures which were now before them. Ile would now turn to the question that had been reeeatedly put, namely—Why did not the Catholic people of Ireland en• dow their College themselves ? And in answer to that he would ask another qu scion, namely—ln what p etition were the Ca tholics of Ireland left i n th e y ear 1795 ? The Catholics had been up to that time banished from their country, and left without religious places of worship—without property—without anything. Pitt established the College of Maynooth in 1795, but up to that time, all the institutions of the Irish Catholics having been abolished, it was scarcely to be hoped that May_ Tooth should be the first to engage their attention. Let it be recollected, that the Catholics of Ireland had supported the Colleges of Armagh, of Turn, of Wexford, anti many others, of the wealth anti usefulnese of which they had been twice plundered, yet had twice endowed.—( Cheers.) He had heard it said that the people of Ireland were idolaters, but he would pass over that, as unworthy of notice; neither would he stop to answer the accusation that Roman Catholios worshipped the Virgin Mary, for in doing so he would be attempting to defend a faith that had endured. unchanged, for eighteen centuries. But this lie would say, that if the English Government were anxious to have the union of the two countries as a real union of Great Britain aril Ireland, they would treat Ireland with common I justice. He had heard much said about the voluntary prin ciple—he had great respect for rho-e who held that opiuiost, for he would say there was more danger in paying no religion than in paying one. But he would ray the English Govern ment should adopt the plan of continental countries. and pay all instead of paying but one.—( Hear, hear. lie telt that the Right Han. Baronet had generously come forward with respect to this measure. But this was not the first time that the Right Hon. baro ne t h a d b owed to a moral necessity which he could not cunt roul. He (Mr. Redington) remembered the time when Alembers of his persuasion were first allowed to enter that House. At that time the Right Honourable Baronet bowed to a moral necessity • which he could not conttoul. He (Mr. Redington) believed that the Right Ilon. Gentleman had yet many more necessities to bow to. Although the Right Hon. Baronet hal come forward in a generous manner, this measure could only be looked upon as a triumph of those prin ciples which had always been so consistently supported by the Noble Lord the Member for London. He (Mr. Redington) could not forget old friends for those who offered new favours. The Noble. Lord and his Colleagues had for many years supported conciliation to Ire land; and he (Mr. Redington) felt that his humble tribute was justly due to the Noble Lord. Mr. C. BRUCE moved the adjournment of the debate. Colonel Sibthorp rose at the same time, and there wore load cries for the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman. Mr. C. BRUCE said he did not wish his motie,n to stand in the way of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman if he wished to prolong the debate. Colonel SIBTHORP—I rise, Sir, to move the adjournment of the debate, as I do not intend to speak until the Hon. Mem ber for Cork (Mr. Murphy) is present.—(Laughter.) The debate was then adjourned. Sir R. PEEL said he hoped the notices of motion for to• morrow (this day) would be disposed of in the same way as those of 'Tuesday, in order to allow the adjourned debate to proceed. Mr. T. DUN COMBE consented to postpone his motion re spetting the Board of Trade until Monday. Mr. WYSE also consented to postpone a motion which he had on the paper. The Auction Duties Bill and the Sugar (Excite Duties) Bill, were severally read a third time and passed. The Museums of Art Bill passed through Committee pro forma. • The following Members were appointed as the Select Com mittee on Smoke Prevention :—Mr. Mackinnon, Mr. Beckett, Viscount Newry, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. Hawes, the Earl of Lincoln, Mr. Octavius Duncombe, Lord Francis Egerton, Mr. William Henry Bodkin, Mr. Ewart, Mr. Borthwick, Mr. Hindley, Mr. Protheroe, Mr. Ricardo, and Mr. W. Willistms.l Colonel SIBTHORP renewed his motion for the printing of the number of pe:itions against the Maynooth grant, with the number of signatures attached to them, but there being no seconder, the motion fell to the ground. The Hon. 31ember gave notice that he would move it to-morrow. The House then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'Clock. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. NEWMARKET ; WEDNESDAY. NEW MATCHES. FunLtY.—Minotanr, 85t 101 b, agst Pine Apple, B . St Ilb. First half of Ab.M. 100, h ft.—These horses are also matched for the next meeting, at the same weights, to run D.M. The LTAdy Buck is scratched for the Port. WEDNESDAY'S RACES. although T The e weather still unseasonably cold, has has a taken afavourablea e busi ness-like s ,an s d i n lik e assemblage to enjoymoderate enabled day's sport, with out thea i drawbacks - that so completely neutralised the attractions of the more important races decided on the first and second days of the meeting. In order to enable several Honourable Members, who have paid us flying visits, to get back to town in time for the division on the Maynooth grant, the races were arranged to commence at half-past one, and finish at three. The first on the card was— A match for 200 sovs. h ft. T.Y.C. Duke. of Bedford's Minotaur, 5 yrs, Bst 101 b (Robinson), beat Lord Exeter's Celia, 6 yrs, Bst 61b (W. Boyce). 5t04 on Minotaur. 'Von by four lengths. Subscription Plate of 50/. for 3 yrs old, 7st ; 4 yrs, ‘st 71b3 5 yrs, 9st ; 6 yrs, and aged, 9st 21b. T.Y C. Mr..llowe's Khorassan, 5 yrs .. ( pp Cha le ) I Lord G. B en ti nc k' s All-roun d-my-Hat, 4 yrs .. 2 Mr. Stee rs ' Caroline, 3 yrs 3 The followin g also ran :—Lord Exeter's Celia, 6 yrs (W. Boyce), and Lord Albemarle's Delapre, 4 yrs (Whitehouse). Betting, 7 to 4 agst All-round-my- Hat, 3 to 1 aga r Celi a taken), , to 1 a i gst Delapre, and 7 to 2 apt Kh orassan . 1 1-round.my-Hat - and Khorassan laid in front all the way; the mare leading at a good pace half wav up the cords, where site was headed, and atter an indifferent race was beaten by a length, Caroline a moderate third. Sir W. W. Wynn's Stoker, Bst 71b (Mann), beat. Lord lluntingtield's fby Muley Moloch, out of Barbelle, Bst 41b. 1). M. 100, h ft. 7t04 on the filly. Won easy by a length. The Column Stakes of 50 sow). each, h ft ;for three vrs o ld _ _ colts, Sit 711); and fillies, Bst 41b. (27 Subs.) - - Mr. Wreford's Winchelsea, by Camel (J. Howlett) 1 Colonel Peel's Hersey, by Glaucus 2 Lord Exeter's Adrianople The following also started:—Lord Albemarle's Tisiphone, Mr Batson's fby Plenipo out of Acacia, Lord Chesterfield'a Javelin (allowed 31b), and Lord Miltown's Duc au Durras. ... . 2 to 1 'on Winchegea, 4 to I ag,st Javelin, and 8 to 1 atot Due au Durrag.—Won in a canter by six lengths. BETTING ON WEDNESDAY EVENING. CHESTER CUP. S to 1 agst tietniseria (taken)jls to 1 agst The Era S to 1 agst Cataract (taken) )15 to 1 agst Ould 'reload DERRY. a to 1 agst John Day's Lot 25t0 I agst Dr.:lc.ful and TK- Oto I taken freely) mouse (t:.ken) Sto 1 agst Idas - ! 35 to 1 agel Laird o' Cockpen 9to 1 agst Alarm . (tako:u) 16 to 1 agst Weatherbit 1 40 to agst Doleful (taken) I 4 Q P.O 1 agst Jinglepot (taken) NEWMARKET FIRST PRING MEETING. TUESDAY.-Sir .T. flawlez s Comrade, Bst 71b, agst Lord Exeter's Dr. Hale, Bst 41b. First half of Ab. M. 100 h ft. Tif UR:ADAY.— Lord Exeter's Wee Pet, Bst 61b, agst Sir J. Hawley's Comrade, ist 41b. D.M. 200 h