The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMEN T. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 17. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at five Minutes past five o'clock. ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE. Lord CAMPBELL laid on the table a Bill for the improvement of the administration of justice in Scot land in cases *where parties got into debt and then re moved from the jurisdiction of the law in this country. He was happy to say that the Bill had been drawn by his Right lion Friend the Lord Advocate of Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord also laid on the table a similar Bill with respect to Scotland. The Earl of STRADBROKE presented . a petition from the medical practitioners of Suffolk against the Medical Reform Bill. Lord BE A.UMONT laid on the table of the House a Bill for giving compensation to the friends of per sons killed by accident. House would not consent to an increase of the navy. SALE OF LIQUORS ON SUNDAY. Mr. BRIGIIT presented petitions fron Carnarvon, and other places, against the sale of liquors on the Sabbath. the stock of the Company had risen to a most unac countable height in a very short time, but what was the cause of it he could not tell. The 'Earl of DALHOUSIE stated that the scheme had been laid before the House last year, and if any objections were to be made, what he s: id was, that they might have been made then • bat he did not mean by that to preclude his Noble' Friend from taking the objection at any time he thought proper. Lord CAMPBELL gave the Noble Earl credit for the very excellent qualities he had brought to the con sideration of the important subjects laid before the Board of which he was the bead ' • but at the same time he (Lord Campbell) believed that that Board was altogether incompetent to decide upon those questions. As well might twelve drunken porters meet and give their opinions on the convenience of one scheme, or the inutility of another of the schemes brought forward, with respect to rail ways. This Committee of the Board of Trade for the consideration of railway questions had no authority from Parliament, and no existence in common law ; and it was, therefore, impossible that their decisions could be respected in the country. They examined no witnesses, and yet they decided upon questions of such paramount importance. True, the Noble Earl said that they examined written evidence. That he (Lord Campbell) supposed meant the state ments of the parties themselves, who felt it their interest to make out the most plausible case to advance their individual interests. If such were their mode of coming to a decision, how could they asssist Parliament in their deliberations, if their decisions were come to without hearing evi dence ? These decisions must be conclusive or not. He thought that some other mode should be found by which the Board should arrive at their decisions. A division in the Board would not shake his faith in their decisions. . On the contrary, be thought this would entitle them to greater weight. He would suggest whether it would not be better to consider how this Board could be improved, in order to ensure it the confidence of the public. Lord STRANGFORD said that one of his Noble and Learned Friends stated that the decisions of the Board would be influential, while the other Noble and Learned Lord declared that it would have no in• fluence of any kind. He (Lord Strangford) was quite at a loss to reconcile these two things. Lord WIIARNCLIFFE said that anyone would suppose, from what had fallen from Noble Lords opposite, that some particular and private object was to be gained to the Government by the establishment of this Board. What were the facts? The House of Commons, finding that they were placed in a diffi culty by the multitude of these railways coming be fore them, appointed this Board to enter into an exa mination of the schemes, in order to relieve the House of Commons from some cf this difficulty. This was not done in a hurry, but after the most mature delberation. All the Board had to do was to assist the House of Commons, by sifting the claims of the several parties before they went before the Committees of Parlia ment. It was even suggested, after the Board had got through three-fourths of their labour, that an al teration in the mode of their proceeding should take place. He could not suppose that his Noble and Learned Friend had made this suggestion on due consideration. Let them see during this year the effect of the working of the Board, and then, if im provements were found to be necessary, they could be made. Lord'BROUGHAM (holding a large blue book in his hand) _rose and said, he would ask whether he was liable to the reflection which had been cast upon him, that, although he objected to the constitution of the soard now, he did not do so last year, when it was appointed ? He held in his band the report of the Select Coinmittee on Railways. At page 15 of that report, it was stated that the Board should be appointed, "firstly,lto afford additional aid in elucida tion of facts by the testimony of witnesses c3mpetent by knowledge and habits and opportunity, and offi cially responsible." It turned out, however, that •these witnesses were not witnesses but judges. The report went on to state that the particular judgment of the Committee was not . to prejudice the claims of pri vate persons, the examination of which was altogether to be reserved for the Legislature. He could only say that last year had he read this report, be never would have expected that it would have led to a course of proceeding such as that which had taken place. The subject then dropped. PENAL LAWS AFFECTING ROMAN CATHOLICS. Lord BEAUMONT rose to put a question to the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, on the subject of the penal laws which still effected the Roman Catholics. He was of opinion that the time had arrived' when all Acts which involved pains and penalties for religion's sake ought to be re pealed. The Roman Catholics dick not expect that those Acts which only imposed disabilities as safe guards to the Established Church would he dealt I with. Again, with regard t o one Act he be g ged to make p ar ti c ular allusion, and that was t he 13th of Elizabeth, chap. 2. He had been told by the Noble 1 and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, that this Act had been repealed by a subsequent Act. It appeared that a portion of this Act had been repealed by the Custorna Duties Consolidation Act.—(Laughter.) Any person introducing an Agnes Dei, or beads, or anything of that sort, was, before the passing of the Customs Consolidation Act, liable to penalties. At present those articles could he introduced at two per cent, ad valorent. Bat any person at preient re ceiving from the Court of Rome a letter or document, even though it should inculcate abstinence from agi tation, or call upon the priests to abstain from inter ference, with politics—or any person receiving a re script of that letter or document, and publishing it, was hell guilty of high treason by the 13th of Eliza beth. Ile thought that while the law stood in this position a change was required. The LORD CHANCELLOR—In the first place he begged leave to remind their Lordships that in the last session of Parliament he stated that he intended to extend the law re'orms which he then commenced. He had referred the subject to the Common-law Com missioners, and they were now considering - the whole matter. He had recommended her Majesty to add to the Commission the names of Sir Edward Ryan, Mr. Amos, and Mr. Richards ; and, founded upon the re port of the Commissioners, a draft Bill would be pre pared, which he should submit to their Lordships at e earliest opportunity. Their Lordships then adjourned. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. M. GIBSON gave notice that, in Committee of Ways and Means, he should move an amendment to the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman at the head of the Government, that no alteration in the sugar duties will be satisfactory or permanent which does rot involve the equalization of duty on foreign and colonial sugar. INCOME-TAX. Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that he should move an amendment to the resolution for the renewal of the income-tax ;to leave out the words, " professions, trades, and offices."--(Cheers.) TRANSFER OF REAL PROPERTY (SCOTLAND). Mr. WALLACE wished to ask the Lord Advo cate when he intended to introduce his Bill for the purpose of facilitating the transfer of general property in Scotland ? The LORD ADVOCATE said the Bill had been for some time under the consideration of the Govern ment, and he hoped to introduce it before the recess. Mr. WALLACE wished al io to know when it was likely the decision, with respect to the Weights and Measures Acts in Scotland, would be given ? The LORD ADVOCATE could not exactly say that he thought it would be before the Courts in Scotland rose. DUTY ON SPIRITS. Lord SANDON presented a petition from certain inhabitants in British Guiana, praying that molasses might be allowed to be used in breweries in Great Britain and Ireland, and praying that the duty on rum might be equalised with British spirits, and that the restrictions on sugar might be removed, so that the petitioners might have an even supply from fo reign States. THE SUGAR DUTIES. Mr. HASTIE wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman, the First Lord of the Treasury, whether it was his intention, under the new Sugar Act, to admit West India sugar in the same class of sugar in which it had heretofore been admitted, namely, as Muscovado sugar ? There were 70,000 tons expected from the West Indies—of these 50,000 would be clayed, so that it was important to know what was the precise intention of the Government. Sir R. PEEL said he had stated they meant to make a difference between Muscovado sugar and white and clayed sugar ; but he thought it better to postpone all discussion on the subject till the sugar duties were brought before the House. Mr. GIBSON wished to ask the Right Hon. Gen tleman whether, in classifying sugars into clayed and Muscovado, and fixing the different rates of duty, he contemplated the adoption of the ad valorem principle of duty, and whether he meant, that the higher rate of duty should always apply to sugar of the greatest RAILWAYS. Lard BROUGHAM, seeing the Noble Lord at the head of the Board of Trade in bis place, wished to know whether he had any objection to lay on the table the returns he had moved for with re spect to the Railway Board? The Earl of DALHOUSIE hai no objection to the production of the returns. With respect to the case of Mr. O'Brien, he could assure the Noble Lord that the assertions that had been made were totally without foundation. Lord BROUGHAM had found that the informa tion he had received was perfectly correct. Mr. W. O'Brien had purchased 204 shares in the South- Eastern Railway stock on the 14th of December, and by the rule that had been laid down, when per sons made purchases, and the broker could not furnish the whole he had undertaken to do, an advertisement was issued, and that was placarded about, stating the shares that were required. The consequence was that Mr. O'Brien's name was placarded for 204 shares; that, therefore, gave the public the first idea of the matter. The instant his (Mr. O'Brien's) name ap peared, the shares in that railway mounted up, be cause he had purchased these - 204 shares. If he (Lord Brougham) or other Noble Lords had pur chased them, such might not have been the case ; but it was different with Mr. O'Brien. He (Lord Brougham) had not before heard a word upon the subject, but his suspicions had been aroused—he had thought such a thing likely to happen, and those sus picions turned out to be the actual fact. The Board of Trade, in coming to the resolutions which they afterwards reported, did so more or less in the dark. Then these reports were laid before Parliament—that was to assist Parliament ; but how could they assist Parliament, having founded their opinions upon mere party statements—the state ments of the parties concerned. Why, they might as well believe in so many fables. Then came the de feated men, and said—" We have collected a cloud ,of evidence, and we will go before a Committee of the House of Commons." But he (Lord Brougham) said they were too late, the decision had been against them, and it would be found that, in 99 cases out of 100, than decision was final. A Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) said that that decision was not binding upon the House, but that they agreed to it because it was a true one. But suppose that his Noble Friend upon the Woolsack, who was so conversant with the business of the Court of Chancery, could conceive of a Board of Masters who would decide . between parties without hearing evidence, would not such a mode of deciding rival claims be searching in the dark—groping in the dark ? But then supposing that they reported in favour of one of these parties — The LORD CH A.NCELLOR—I should accept the report.—(Laughter.) Lord BROUGHAM —Very likeiy.—(Continued laughter.) But seriously, he thought this one of the greatest interferences with private interests, and with the commerce of the country. There were millions, and tens of millions invested in these questions, and continually changing hands. Men might say, " I have 17,0001. in a line reported against"—another might say, " I have but 10,000/. ;" and all this by a report emanat ing from a board which heard no evidence. He wondered whether it was true that the North Kent line had been rejected upon the narrowest pos _sible majority—whether General Pasley and Mr. Porter were against the South-Eastern line, and Mr. Laing and his Noble Friend the other way. Mr. O'Brien, he understood, did not vote : consequently, there were two for and two against. Mr. O'Brien, however, was- present, although he took no part in the proceedings. • Generally speakin g , the mode of • not taking any part in any proceedings was to he absent ; such, however, was not the case with Mr. O'Brien. As the Committee were equally divided, his Noble Friend had to give the casting vote—consequently there were three to two, although with respect to persons there were only two to two. His Noble Friend was no greater in authority after giving two votes than he' was after giving but one. When these things were communicated to him (Lord Brougham) his first expression was, " Of course this will be made known to the House of Commons — of course, the kind of help or auxiliary process which had been afforded will be made known to them." Mr. Cardwell, who aas now a Member of the Govern . ment, was strongly in favour of large powers being given to the Board; hat he distinctly stated t bet the Board ought not to come to any decision without examining evidence. According to my Noble and Learned Friend's own statement, he admits that the matter is of infinite importance. But he had received such numberless communications, complaining of the hardships they had suffered in consequence of these decisions, that, unless his-opinion was changed by the inf,rmation he should receive, he should feel it to be his bounden duty to bring a motion be f o re their Lordships, with the intention of having the whole of these reports fully discussed. The Earl of DALHOUSIE said, with respect to the question put by his Noble and Learned Friend in regard to the number of shares Feld by Mr. William O'Brien, he dii not know whether that Gentleman expected him to answer it. It was no business of his, and he should postpone anything. he . had to say 0:1 the subject until the Noble and Learned Lord brought forward his promised motion. But, with respect to the defence of any particular member of the Board to which he belonged, he should, on every occasion, stand forward for the purpose of placing the facts in their proper light, and refuting any • statements which were not founded in truth. With respect to the other question, viz., that his Noble end Learned iend had learned by inforrna . lion that the South-Eastern scheme was decided this way the only answer he could give was this—his Noble and Learned Friend had wondered if his in - formation was really fact,. and it was his duty to leave the Noble and Learned Lord to wonder on. Lord BROUGHAM—I don't wonder now ; I am perfectly satisfied. The Earl of D ALIIOU SI E—The Board of Trade was founded upon similar arrangements as those made by other Boards. A person was placed at its head by Parlia ment, to whom this person was parliamentaeily re sponsible. Would any Noble Lord be justified in asking a question relative to the decision of the Board of Admiralty, or the Board of Customs ? Would any Noble Lord be justified in asking how this Honourable Member voted, and that Honourable Member voted ? Certainly not ; and upon the same principle he was justified in allowing the Noble Lord still to wonder on. His Noble and Learned Friend hart made some observations on the subject of the foundation of. this Board. Now, his Noble and Learned Friend would excuse him while he stated how this Board was originally esta blished. The question was raised before the other House of Parliament, and after being fully discussed in a Committee, it was resolved that railway Bills should be subject to the examination of a Government Board ; that this duty should be entrusted to the Board of Trade, who should have power to establish a railway department. With respect to the proceedings .of the Board, unquestionably there were no wit nesses examined; but there was other kind of evidence. Documentary evidence was brought before them, and upon this evidence they had decided. He repeated, their decisions were not to be final, and their influence would, of course, have to depend upon their intrinsic merits. He thought, then, it was un just to condemn the decisions at that early period. They ought to have a fair trial, and it was neces s a r y that, e the report of the Board of Trade should considered before this fair trial could be had. IA he the Noble and Learned Lord brought for ward the question with respect to the constitution of the Board, he " any informat m io s u n s should be happy to meet him, and give he might require ;but, at the present moment, he decline, upon the grounds of public convenience, answering the internal arrangeregethe questions with respect to The Duke of WELnlesioNf the Board itself. G/"ON wished to say one word with respect to pre9.nute7, as reports had bein circulated to his He had had an o pportunity of knowing that gentleman. Ile had served in a most honourable way in impossible for he was respected by all ; and it was i m . gentleman to stand higher in the service si tha e n for any had done. He (the Duke of Wellington) believed ile that • his conduct had been gentlemanly thr oug h out' that he was quite incompetent to commit the ant that had been laid to his charge. Lord BROUGHAM never meant to throw the slightest imputation on Capt. O'Brien or his brother. All he complained of was, the nature of the system and its defective construction. He believed that the information. be had received was correct. As to what passed in the House of Lords last year, he had never heard of it till the present Moment.' His Noble Friend had said why not take an objection to the matter at that time ? Why, the truth was, that he had never heard of it, or he certainly should have taken the objection. He did not think that anything in . the proceedings that had taken place in the Board of Trade had arisen from reading the moxts. There could be no doubt that value ? Sir R. PEEL said that, assuming clay sugar gene rally to be more valuable than Muscovado, that would be the effect of the arrangement. Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to know from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) for what period he intended to propose the continuance of the new sugar duties ? Sir R. PEEL said that in making so great a change as that which he had proposed, he was not prepared to advise that the new sugar duties, sup posing they were passed by Parliament, should be continued beyond the sth of July, 1846. Mr. EWART moved for a return of the - quantity of butter destroyed in bond in Liverpool during the past year.—Granted. PRINCE ALBERT. Mr. BORTIIWICK wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury, whether there was any truth in a rumour which had appeared in the Morning Post and other newspapers. The rumour itself was one upon which he did not ask for any information, because it was sufficiently absurd to contradict itself. The statement was :—" It is rumoured, and, we believe, on good authority, that the title of King Consort is about to be bestowed on his Royal Highness ' Prince Al bert. This, we believe, is preliminary to apply ing to Parliament to increase the present grant." He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the question simply to afford him an opportunity of con tradicting a rumour, mischievous, absurd, and pre posterous in itself, but calculated to do very serious injury to the object of all their loyalty and affection ? Sir R. PEEL said it was not a good practice for Hon. Members to ask for explanations from the Go vernment of newspaper reports, particularly when an Hon. Gentleman found a rumour that was sufficiently absurd—(Great laughter)—to be its own contradic tion, and wanted no explanation from him. It was rather hard in that particular case that the Hon. Gentleman should submit him (Sir R. Peel) to the ordeal of answering it. However, he must leave it to the decision of llonourable Gentle men themselves to ask such questions or to refrain from asking them, because he knew that inferences were sometimes drawn from silence. On the whole, perhaps, on the present occasion silence would be the best; but, to guard against the possibility of any erroneous inference, he would state, for the informa• tion of the Hon. Gentleman, that that paragraph was totally without foundation.—(hear, hear.) RAILWAY COMMITTEE. Lord HOWICK wished to put a question with respect to the railway department of the Board of Trade. He observed that all the reports of that Com mittee were signed by all the five members of it. Now, he wished to know if, from that circumstance, they were to infer that ail those five gentlemen sign ing that report concurred in it, and whether they were all of the same opinion? This question was of considerable importance, because, as it was now de termined that those reports were not to be conclusive, but only to be binding so far as they were consistent with reason, it of course had a very material differ ence in their authority, whether a ey were the unanimous opinion of those five gentlemen, or whether they were approved only by two or three of them. It struck him that, in a vast number of railivay projects, it was almost im possible to find five gentlemen of the same opinion; and, in point of fact, with respect to one of them, at least, it was not so, for one of the five gentlemen did not vote; the other four were equally divided; and the question was finally decided by the Chair man of the Committee giving his casting vete. He hop; d the Right Hon. Baronet would have no objec tion to state what was the fact, whether the gentle men signing the report all concurred in such an opi nion or not. He should also like to ask whether it was the intention of the Board of Trade to lay before the House, as an appendix to their report, the statements of the competing companies, on which their reports were founded ? It was of great importance that the House should possess the statement of each company, and the documents which they had laid before the Board of Trade, upon which the reports of that Board had been founded. Sir GEORGE CLERK said that with regard to the first question, he believed, there was no precedent for it. He believed that when a report was made by any public Board, that report was to be taken as the act of the Board collectively. It was the first time that any question had ever been asked as to what discussions had taken place at the Board, and he must decline giving any answer, because, if he were to do so, it would be establishing a dangerous and inconvenient precedent, and he trusted that neither the Noble Lord nor the House would draw any inference from his silence.—(Cheers and laughter.) With regard to the second question, he had to state that the Board of Trade had no intention of laying before the House the voluminous statements which had been submitted to them by the various parties to railway schemes. He believed there would be no objection to laying those statements before the House if the Noble Lord should think them. necessary. But in the future progress of those schemes no doubt the parties interested would lay before the Committee of that Board all the statements they had to make, either in recommendation of their own schemes or in opposition to the schemes of their rivals ; and the only objection he had for laying the papers before the House was, that they were very voluminous, and would take a long time to copy. Mr. ROEBUCK begged to observe, with regard to the first question put by the Noble Lord, that a statement had been distinctly made that certain mem bers of the Board had voted, and their names had been mentioned.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Howick.) It had been stated that a casting vote had been given by the head of the Board of Trade.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Howick.) If a casting vote had been given, - there must have been an equal division of the persons voting, as no person possessed two votes. All the parties, therefore, must have voted. This led to a most important conclusion.—(Hear, hear.) Now, in such a state of things it would not do, now-a-days, to, shut out investigation.—(Hear.) They must know all and everything.—(Hear, hear.) If not suspicion would rest upon those who shut out the light---(Hear, hear)—and, if so, such a tribunal would not be a satisfactory one for the guidance of Parliament, and he believed that Parliament would utterly discard the recommendations emanating from such a tribunal, and would proceed with their inves tigation as if no such reports had been made. Mr. WALLACE was not aware that the Noble Lord intended to put any such question, but he had come down to the House with a notice in his pocket.—(A laugh.) The first report of the Board of Trade had been printed, and he now gave notice that he intended to move that there should be laid on the table of the h e lo e u u s ti e tma all u uatheasaiddocuments that this was an unprecedented HOUSE OF COMMO.NS, Feb. 17. The SPEIKEIL took the Chair at the usual hour. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT, 1116 new Secretary-at-War, :cok the oaths and his seat for South Wiltshire. THE MALT-TAX. Mr. TUITE presented thirteen petitions, praying for the repeal of the malt-tax. IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT. Mr. BROAD LEY presented petitions from places in Yorkshire, praying for the repeal of the A:!t of the 7th and Bth Victoria, doing away with imprisonment for debt in certain cases. THE MEDICAL REFORM BILL. Sir J. TROLLOPE presented petitions, signed by all the re-pectable medical practitioners in the towns of Spalding end Holbeach, in LincolnAlire, against the Medical Reform Bill, and praying the House to afford them that adequate protection to which they were entitled from the time and expense required for, their education. • THE CALEDONIAN RAILWAY. Mr. HOPE JOHNSTONE presented petitions from various places (one of them signed by 500 of the leading firms in Glasgow), in favour of the Cale donian Railway Bill. PAPER- STAIN E RS. Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from a large to ly of paper-stainers, complaining of the pre sent state of the law with regard to the manufacture of paper and the importation of foreign ornamenta l paper. CURRENCY. The How. MEMBER also presented two petitions against any alteration in the currency of Scotland. CHARITABLE BEQUESTS ACT. .., .., Sergeant MURPHY presented a petition from the inhabitants of the city of Cork, adopted at a large meeting, and signed by several thousands, praying for the repeal of the Charitable Bequests Act. POST-OFFICE ESPIONAGE. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from Capt. Stalbey and another, complaining of the unsa tisfactory state of the report of the Secret Committee appointed last year to inquire into this subject. These two gentlemen had had their letters opened ; and, in the event of the House appointing another Committee to inquire further into the matter, they prayed the House to allow them to be heard before that Com mittee, inasmuch as imputations had been cast upon them in the former Committee, and no opportunity hail been afforded them for vindicating their cha rac'ers. The Hon. Member intimated that to-morrow he-would move that this petition be printed with the Votes at the same time that, according to notice, he would bring under the consideration of the House the unsatisfactory and evasive character of the report made by the late Secret Committee. The lion. MEMBER also moved that the petition of Mr. Joseph Mazzini, presented on the 14th inst., be printed with the vots. THE NAVY ESTIMATES. . Mr. CORRIE laid on the table the navy estimates, which were ordered to be printed. MEDICAL REFORM. Mr. KELLY presented a petition, numerously signed, from most respectable gentlemen of the medi cal profession, against the Medical Reform Bill, and praying that the House would not pass it into a law without material amendments. INCREASE OF TUB NAVY. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN presented a petition from.,Wellinborough, in the county of Northampton, against preparations for war, and praying that the THE SLN, LONDON, TITESDAT EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 1845. the President or Vice-President of that Board acted as the head of it; and it did sometimes happen that there were only four or five of them acting at a time; but they were usually assisted in their proceedings by the counsel of those of their body, who were most competent to give them advice upon railway business. Some of them engaged in railways, and others who, though not so engaged, were most conversant with that business, took no part in the proceedings of the Board; but the reason they were connected with it was becausel the object of the Government was to select those who, from their position and education, were best qualified to hold such a position. As to the gentleman who was placed at the head of the Board of Trade—he stood in the situation of a responsible and Parliamentary officer, and was answerable for those acts of his that had been called in question. Mention had been made of the reports of the Board of Trade as emanating from only three or four members of the Board. Now, he could not say that because a report did emanate from only that number it should be called a report of only three or four, no more than should a report from a CoMmittee of that House be called a report of three members or one member.—(Laughter.) But the reports of the Board of Trade were now be fore the House as the reports from that department, and he would contend for it that they should be held as the deliberate and formal reports of that body.— (Hear.) He could say, that while he was connected with that Board he exercised his best abilities to give satisfaction; and he would now say, that if he were still connected with it he would defend its acts on the floor of that House; and connected with it now or not, he would still be ready to defend them while he was connects with the Board—(Hear, hear)—and he felt assured that those reports had, as they ought to have, the confidence of the majority of that House. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. BERNAL had listened with great atten tion to the Hon. and Learned Member opposite in his defence of his conduct while he was in office, as a member of the Board of Trade, and he (Mr. B.) was glad to hear him say he would' be answerable for the veracity of the reports of that Board—(Laughter)—and that, furthermore, he was prepared to defend those reports, and act as their gladiator on the floor of that House.—(Laughter.) This was the difficulty in which the subject was in volved. He had long entertained an opinion on the subject of the private bnsiness of that House, which he was aware was not a popular one, and whenever he had introduced it, it had not received the slightest support. He thought they ought gradually to take steps towards removing the chief part of the pri vate business from the control of that House. They were approaching an era in civilization, unlike any , that had been seen before, and a whole mass of private business poured in upon them, for the danger of which they had not provided. They had sketched out an imperfect and hasty plan, for trusting some of it to the Committee of the Board of Trade, and what had been the result? Why that respect able gentlemen were indirectly —he might almost say directly—accused of not discharg ing their duties candidly and honestly. Those gentlemen were placed in an odious position ; they were exposed to every random shot fired at them by speculators, or by those who were not speculators. He for one would not consent to stand in such a position, and would rather give up the post of Secre tary or President of the Committee than encounter the odium it produced.—(Hear.) It was said there must be some tribunal ; but it was impossible that with a hundred Railway Bills before them, Hon. Members, who were occu pied by public business, could give - up hours every day to attend to Railway schemes in which they had no interest whatever. What, then, was to be done ? Let the Government, whoever it may be composed of, boldly sketch out the plan of some open tribunal, out of doors, where the merits of these railway schemes could be discussed ; and he was sure that the decisions of such a body would give more satisfaction than the decisions of that House. The present Committee bad not sufficient time to attend to the business thrown upon it—all was hurry and confusion, and so great was the pressure to get ready the plans and documents for the last day on which they could be given in, that several working engineers lost their health, and some their lives, from the excessive labour; they would never exonerate the House from suspicion of self interest till they removed the control of its private business to some other tribunal. There were certainly difficulties attending every new arrangement, but if they studied the credit of the House they would lose no time in taking the question into their serious consideration. Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE complained that he had been misunderstood. What he had stated was, that if he had continued in office he should have consi dered it his duty, as the organ of the Board of Trade, to defend their decisions, but he had also stated that the Government was placed in a very different position with regard to private Bills to that in which it was placed with regard to public Bills. As the organ of the Board of Trade, he should have felt it his duty to make the best defence he could for the decisions on private Bills, but he begged it to be dis tinctly understood that in that decision the Govern ment, as a Government, was not involved. Lord HOWICK had not complained on that point. What he said was, that he argued against making the reports of that tribunal conclusive, because they dealt with property to a much greater amount than the judgPs in Westminster-hall ; and he had said that if their decisions were to be considered as conclusive, their station ought to be one somewhat approaching to that of the judges. He had not used the word clerk in any offensive sense, for he believed that that tribunal was composed of honourable men. All he objected to was, their being permitted to deal conclusively with such large masses of property. Sir R. PEEL was surprised at the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Taunton, considering the experience that that Right Hon. Gentleman had had in the Board of Trade. It ap • peered to be the impression that the Government had assumed an authority in this matter which had not received the sanction of the House. Now the Executive Government had only acted in perfect con formity, as they thought, with the wishes of the House of Commons. A Select Committee had been appointed last session to consider the mode of proceeding with rearrd to Railway Bills. They were called upon to consider if the present mode of conducting the railway business of the House of Commons was satisfactory or not. They had to discuss the question of the degree of super vision which the Government should exercise over these railway schemes in their early stage. They considered that some preliminary examination of these schemes should take place before they were 'submitted to that House. They said they would net discuss whether or not any new department should be instituted for that purpose, but they would assure them that Parliament meant that the Board of Trade should exercise that super vision. If the House of Commons entertained a different opinion, that opinion should have been expressed at the time. It had been assumed that the Board of Trade should exercise that super vision, and what the Committee proposed was, that before any Bills were submitted to Parliament, the schemes should be submitted to a preliminary exami nation, leaving it to the Government to determine whether or not any new department should be in stituted for the transaction of railway business. The reports were only intended as guides for Parlia ment. On some occasions the Board reported in favour of particular lines, and sometimes they re ported for postponement ; but he denied that they had exercised any powers which were not in con formity with the powers vested in them by the Legislature. The Committee reported in favour of the enlarging of the railway department of the Board of Trade, but left it to the Government to say how it was to be organised and how it was to be enlarged. He denied that the directions of the Committee had not been complied with. He thought his Right Hon. Friend had acted with propriety in de clining to enter into an explanation about differences of opinion among the members of the Board, as to the best line of railway. If differences of opinion had, in the first instance, occurred among the members of the Board, as to the best line of railway, it was quite con sistent that explanation and discussion might re concile their differences, and when all their names ap peared as sanctionirg a report, the fact ought to be taken to be so, and that all the members of the Board were unanimous. Mr. LABOUCHERE had not complained of the Board of Trade making these reports. What he complained of was the mode in which the Board of Trade, or the Government, thought fit to carry the recommendations of the Committee into effect. He had maintained, and he would still main tain, that the present was a most cumbrous mode of proceeding, and most inconvenient to the public service. He had expressed his opinion as to the mode in which the Board of Trade had discharged their duties. He would say no m o r e tha n to repeat p c i p o i i n on io a n to th w at hi t o h h e the proceedings mischief Board done, ha d and that the Government had to thank itself for the h su is s given rise. Sir R. H. INGLIS thought that all that had been said on the subject was a justification of the Govern ment in haven i ae- o pp nted the five gentlemen who con stituted the Board.—(Hear, hear.) But his (Sir R. Inglis's) immediate object in rising at present was for the purpose of making a few observations on what had fallen from one of the acutest gentlemen in the House, who had fo 1 rmer y been member. forßochester. He would ask that Hon. Member and the House did he think it was possible that they could entertain the idea of creating a new judicial tribunal for the inves tigation and determination of matters connected with railways ?—(No, no.) And, if it were possible to do so, would it not be! actually instituting another Housesef Varliament? 'or the decision of that new judicial question. It should be recollected it was an unpre cedented situation—(Cheers)—in consequence of the new Board which had been imposed upon Parliament. Would the House take the leavings of the Board of Trade, or would they act independently ?—(Hear.) Mr. C. WOOD did not think the answer of the Right Hon. Baronet was calculated to give satis - faction either to the House or to the country. The Government should consider whether the answer given was calculated to give confidence in the railway department of the Board of Trade. He (Mr. Charles Wood) had heard from other sources the report to which the Noble Lord had alluded. He had heard that on one occasion the members of the Committee were evenly divided in opinion as to a particular line of railway ; but one of its members gave a casting vote, which determined the Railway Committee upon deciding in favour of the line which the President had sanctioned, and this, too, although the only engineer who was a member of the Committee e pressed his dissent to the line recommended. If the Government wished that the reports of the Committee should be received with any degree of confidence he confessed he thought they were taking the worst pos sible course to ensure any degree of trust in the justieb of their decisions. Mr. MILNES said he thought Hon. Gentlemen had erred in attaching so much importance to names and authorities. What they should look to was the reasons which the Committee gave for the decisions at which they arrived. He did not see that names or authorities had anything to do with the matter. What the Government had said was that the reports should be merely considered as guides, and these re ports could not be in any way invalidated by the supposition that some of those gentlemen might have dissented from the opinions of the remainder. Mr. ESCOTT said that he feared the construction of the Board involved much suspicion as to its pro ceedings. The proceedings of the Committee would never give satisfaction unless they were public. It sat as a court of justice, and if its proceedings were secret they would always be liable to suspicion. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the answer of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir G. Clerk) would not give satisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) It was important to consider that the inquiry had been en trusted to a responsible department of the Govern ment—(Hear, hear)—and it was not intended that it should be left to a tribunal composed of gen tlemen who had no Parliamentary responsibility. — (Hear, hear.) The Committee which sat last year recommended that the Board of Trade should exa mine the applications to be made to Parliament for new railway projects, and for rival railways, and should report to the House their opinion of their merits ; but he did not think that the Committee, in making that recommendation, at all contemplated that there should be constituted a new tribunal, exempt from Parliamentary responsibility. He had been a member of that Committee, and to speak for himself, he never had contemplated any such thing. He thought, that the Board of Trade would transact the business itself, and that the President or the Vice-President, or some member of the Govern ment, being responsible to Parliament, would have pro vided for the proper performance of this business in the railway department. He thought the Board of Trade was bound to take the duty upon itself— (Hear, hear)—and he never before had heard of the appointment of a tribunal constituted, as was the one in question, of persons having no Parlia mentary character and no responsibility to the country.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that those gentlemen should not have the task thrown upon them, however respectable they might be. He did not wish to say a word against their respectability, upon which there could be no imputation, but he must say that it was not proper that gentlemen who filled such situations as that of private secretary should have been placed in possession of such extraordinary power and with such little re sponsibility.—(Hear,hear.) He must also say that certainly suspicions had arisen. He did not hesitate to declare his convictions that these suspicions were wholly unfounded. But he thought the Government had to thank itself for having occasioned those suspicions by the manner in which they had instituted the Board. However, the mischief had been done, and could not very we ll be remedied so far. Still he must repeat that he did not think the answer of the Hon. Gentleman had been satisfactory. He agreed with the lion. Gentleman opposite that whatever effect the report of the Board of Trade might have on the House must depend on its impartiality. If it was found that the engineer of the Board differed from the rest of his colleagues upon the nature of the report, that must, of course, very much detract from it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GLADSTONE said he he did not intend to enter into the question upon which this discussion commenced—namely, an examination or an analysis of the Railway Board as to the opinion of its members. But there were two other matters introduced, upon which he wished to say a few words. The Honour able and Learned Member for Winchester ex pressed a strong opinion, that if the judg ments of the Board were to carry any weight their proceedings mu tn i an t tai b vtu e er.e p , ublic. Now he stated most strongly to the House that there was no choice h b o p e a t ii w i e , In t nh o h a a t s R • h n a e g i lyw t sa l h i y e o i u r lßd p o ea r s o r td c a t b , c al d ti s i h a a g pl s lu. io(etH proceedings ra u or b c, l e i e c hde a a n r n g. and Ifth they y th m e ust House have r w eg as ula o r f te w m i e tn n e ts sses a — nd th p e rep T be h f e o r r e e have v e regular a ' s oar n ; o a f l t t h e a r parties a t hnedy formalm t examinationsh counsel and agents must be constantly repsent— sotaf they must have all that delay and expense which the very gentlemen who complained of the of want pub licity were parties to expose before that House. With regard to the composition of the Board, the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was the first person from whom he had heard any censure, and far less such severe censure as that of the Right Honourable Gentleman. It was easy to find fault with its con stitution, or any plan that might be adopted under the circumstances ; but if he lo Aced to the alternative to which the Right Hon. Gentleman pointed out in the remarks he addressed to the House, he was not at all shaken in his conviction that the course taken in the appointment of the Board was the best course of which the circumstances would admit. The Right lion. Gentleman admitted that if there was to be a Board at all, he would have it constituted of Privy Councillors. Now, he would ask the House how it was possible to constitute the Board of Privy Councillors, the members of which should have patiently devoted themselves from morn ing till night, for the space of four or five months, to receive deputations, to examine papers, and form con • elusions connected with 240 railroads.—(Hear, hear.) Perhaps it might be the opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman that such things were possible. In his (Mr. Gladstone's) opinion, it w as t o t a lly vi s ionary, and he was astonished to hear such a plan recom mended.by any person, but particularly by a gentle man of great ability, who held a high public office in the country. Another plan was, that the President and Vice-President of the Board of Trade might proceed with regard to Rail way Bills as they did with regard to public bills. That might be the best course to pursue if it was physically possible that the buisiness of the Railway Department could be got through in that manner. But the organ of the Board of Trade in that or the other House of Parliament had many other matters to attend to. He had to attend to many commercial and financial mea sures, and to many important matters con nected with their foreign and colonial policy. At the present moment the circumstances of the Rail way Department were such that they demanded the undivided mind and time of those who were called upon to conduct the affairs of that department. Therefore, although the institution of a novel mode of proceeding was in itself disadvantageous, yet the Government were absolutely driven upon it, because the usual machinery of Parliamen tary representation would have been totally in adequate to the purpose. It was absolutely necessary, with regard to such important matters as railways, to take some means of assuring the House and the country that there had been, according to the opportunities possessed, a patient and laborious investigation of the facts; and he did not think it possible for any gentleman who heard him to ima gine that such au assurance could have been given in this case by the Board of Trade, and to an audience similar to that which usually decided upon private Bills.—(Hear.) Although the plan adopted was very far from being theoretically perfect, and although, as must always be the case where such great conflicting interests were at stake, great dis satisfaction prevailed, yet it was remarkable that no gentleman had pointed ou t a course of proceeding which, on the whole, would be attended with so few disadvantages. It had been objected to one of these gentlemen that he had been private secretary to 'the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment. Well, he did not himself see that that was in the nature of a disqualification, or in the nature of proof or presumption that this gen tleman was unfit for his position. Why, what changes they constantly saw taking place ! Who censured the appointment of the gentleman who was lately private secretary to Lord Haddington, now the Secretary to the Admiralty. ?—(Hear, hear.) Other gentlemen who had been private secretaries had been afterwards made Secretaries of State; and he really could not see that the post of a member of the Railway Board was at all more important. He believed that the word " clerk" had been applied to those gentlemen. It had been said that the gentlemen who dealt with these vast interests were persons scarcely higher in station than clerks. Now it was impossible to use a word more ambiguous than the word " clerk." A " clerk" might mean one who was en gaged in the discharge of mechanical duties—on the other hand it was frequently applied to a per son in a] public office who discharged duties requiring very high and delicate discretion. Nov, the position of the Board of Trade was this— --- tribunal would be considered after in t he House of conne.tax would not be temporary - , but would b 1 Russell) be' Commons as if it had come from another branch of alwa y s renewed. He (Lord joh i n n regard to the the Legislature ; and it would have to be considered in I . i n c e v e c re d e i the tl x q u e s s t i o t n h e w d l ConlChancellor3s be, ' of the Exchequer load I its successive stages as a Bill which ca me from one stated last ye a ar, between a renewal of that impost 21_,, House of the Legislature to the other. But he thought a national insolvency.—(Hear, hear.) w e ll, now le . ; that the present Committee of the Board of Trade the House look at the statement the Right lion. Ba . roll": was nearly in the situation of a grand jury. The made upon financial and commercial grounds. As to inquiries were ex parte ; and when the report came what had been stated upon financial grounds, he.( l- f c ' b up to the House it was like an indictment sent from John Russell) would own they did not admit o' e r a grand jury, having only prepared the case fault. As to the statement in her Majesty's spe t e . e c ivil for adjudication. The report did not deprive it was not her Majesty's intention to increase 13 c the House of the power of examining all the list this year,' of course the House and the c ou , n , t a l i were not a. evidence on both sides, and voting as it thought fit. should be rejoiced at this, while they .t to There was another observation which he had to make. sn e rpFisc r , cl a s t e i e t i - t f l r e lear v , a e n s d ti a m l a a t u b g Q h. t l e VV R ' i ith reePe c n .., ht Hun. An Hon. Gentleman opposite had said that the answer h of his Right lion. Friend (Sir George Clerk) had t ron:t n h e a e d a left out of na hi y s statement that which he 01: t, not been satisfactory, as respected the appointment of J. Russell) looked upon as the most necessary part.!l,,ted while he went into a detail of matters not at all lur ' for some gentlemen on the Board. But it was admitted for. There were which were always lock e d upon all hands that those gentlemen were qualified as a matter of course in the report of the Secre for the duty, and their characters were admitted by rated above War; and the House always admitted that a ctehtanresideir every gentleman who spoke upon the subject to be able army force was required to be kept up in _ te a above suspicion.—(Hear.) vies, and the supplies for that department were gra n ll ,, Mr. WAKLEY thought that no complaint had without any objection by the House, whether the P".", with re been made against the Government for having insti- in p d ower h m e ets Whi or Tory.—(Hear, hear.) tilted the railway department of the Board of Trade. gz ed to t t e fi n n a d vy th e g a st t i , m in at s, he (Lord J. Russell) was, re c ; He thought it was admitted the House itself was to ' this department, the n(gt e ds blame for all that had been done.—(Hear, and a j which was apparent in the years 1834 and 18 44 !:_.. now about to give way to more vigilant attenti s a il laugh.) For all that had been s aid wa s that (Hesr, hear)—nor did he think that a for ce of ten the system had not worked well , a n d that of the line, for such a maritime power a s _ ese ,.. the Government should propose to the House to was, should be looked upon as a great ," t he remedy the ineffieleney.—(Hear.) With respect to sion.—(Hear, hear.) But it did appear, ot_ ate s the statement of the late President of the Board of whole statement of the Hon. Baronet, that th ovoid l' " 11 Trade, he (Mr. Wakley) thought that statement were very large indeed, and much larger thanthese or made matters worse, when he said that if been expected, considering the absence of 0. 4 i re he were in office still, he would stand up in the House which led f to an h increa t s B e 4 r t m e e few the y ,e e a a r rs lB l 2, • a x e ',o r l on and defend the report. Now, that course would be sta t n h c e e , r u o h m i i et expenditure,e year including j over half a tal,_ 11 : 1 , to take upon the Government the responsibility of of the report, and to give the latter the weight for the p support of the army in Canada and pl' i i' s of Government authority. The manner in which the amounted to 18,107,000/. Then, the estimates or_tto year ending January, 1843, including I,3so,ooolLTtes inquiry had been conducted gave great dissatisfaction, over nineteen millions ; and the amount of the es t, ee and the public felt that they had suffere d considerable to January, 1844 , was 18,895,0001., and this ain?oTareer injury. That was the impression in the western conceived, should be looked upon as considerably ere counties. He (Mr. Wakley) hoped that the than it ought to be, when it was remembered _ ll _,._' ev er, Government would give up the idea of having was no peculiar cause for it.---(Hear, hear.) 1. ,-ll i i n ie• any such tribunal at all.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") he hoped and believed,. that when her Majesty s id 115 0 INCOME-TAX. tors came prepared with their statement, they s vou ~,is The Order of the Day for going into a C u m- come prepared with good and sufficient reasons, for ' 5O , increased amount of the estimates, and if the) (t or mittee of Ways and Means was then read, Mr. he would not join in any vote for a 'l , llB GREENE in the Chair. rial diminution of them.—(Hear, hear.) e . t ot On the motion that the i ncome -t ax be continued, consequence of voting those estimates would of being put, there would be a surplus with the ince ' r e Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he was very glad 3,400,000/. Now, he thought if the whole ofethellle t o : that the Right Hon. Gentleman had consented to was to be disposed l o d f h with .d re t sp a e t e t t h t e o many ha be l en lu ju di s ei tta postpone, for another day, the decision of c e l u e s s i ch e o h s e e s n e , n it w vy a o h u resp e ec s t a h the House on this question, because the more to promoti y og the industr9i_es he thought of the question the more he commerce Y ofsthe country. The tax on cotton- ill le tax on the raw material—a most important mater s ea conceived its importance to be great and trade, was against all sound commercial principl e _ to greater even than the Right Honourable he must confess that he rejoiced that it was pro a r ts% otl Gentleman himself seemed to suppose. take it off.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to th ..es tb ,s If he could agree with the Hon. Gentleman glass he concurred with the Right Hon. Baof ar ticl.e! the Member for Kendal, who seemed to be greatly that tax greatly impeded manufactures in tha t tei s ot d ° enamoured of this tax, and thought that it ought to and be thought the Right Hon. Baronet co ye l°_ , to t o , i ; be permanent, he could find some comfort, because better than take it off. With regard, how v e e, r the sfillesc he believed it was approaching to that accomplish- of the other taxes it was proposed to x i to). to she. - h to ment—(Laughter)—hut, for his own part, he had observations . would . not apply. With l3 no t 0 15 _ . . 9 i been accustomed to consider the income-tax neces- tion duty of the Right Hon. Baronet who di d Y en ss_ct nary, indeed, in great emergencies—for the carrying keep up any surplus, why 300,000/. should beg e did , ',, t in auction duty he could not tell. Although °„. ea llail_. on of a war of an arduous and costly nature, generally agree with the property-tax of thw4 bee , ' but subject to some of the greatest objections which Member for Lincoln, he thought it would h a_' ol o/ could be urged against any tax.—(Hear, hear.) He much better to have taken off the tax on fire-1 0 ,7d 61 had always been of opinion that it was unequal, and than auctions. The Right Hon. G e ntleman lg. ',I vexation and fraud were inherent in the tax. that there had been no complaint made of the_ e ate eit,_7, It was impossible to deny its inequality, for no man was true, and - he seemed to take to himself. n of Al; would say it was equal that a person whose income finding out a tax that ought to be removed, be o °_, was derived from a landed estate or the funds, which he nobody complained. Now, generally spear .. " . t he es ,"', could leave to his children entire, was in the same po- lieved that when the people found a tax_ _D e u s ' s , berg' sition as a person in a profession—a surgeon or an they objected to it, but that was not . l.lie vis the • artist—whose bread depended on the continuance of (Cheers.) The tax on soap, he believed, ~.a h his health, or who, by the loss of a limb or a defect one remaining on the necessaries of life w.„' l ! h t 0, Smith said ought to be repealed, but the Rig "T o of eyesight, might at any moment be deprived of his Gentleman had said nothing with respect l'°. oug ht at income. —(Hear, hear.) No person could say He thought that the Right Hon. Gentleela u _ as to f or , that those two persons should be considered have gone further. He thought that in fairrlc eot ee l er , in the same light. Neither could any person fairly House the Right Hon. Gentleman should 11 17 d -t at aPo deny that great vexation was inseparable from that ward and said to that House, "Do you think ~„ the P ivi s tax—that a person engaged in trade, who was obliged petual income-tax will be sufficiently repluuJo i ere ,b i e b either to submit to the payment demanded of him, remitted by my proposition ?" But then , lan t° ' ° or show all his accounts, and the matters in which he another part of the Right Hon. t B . Baronet's P cro sse: o. ,, s et , was engaged, was not subject to very great vexation. m he ea b n ef directgd ee t m e mereial the atten T i h o e n R ef igh t: e i i o - 0. r be i j : 0 With regard to the fraud and evasion, he believed no had referred to the tariff policy.o 1842, and he a se d r ee ill r if man who had been concerned in the collection of this improved condition of the revenue to the eli an l n it fol g o tax would deny that great frauds were practised under it ; that the man of the most integrity tariff. Now, he thought it would have bo ll * (1 8 t ie the Right lion. Gentleman had given sir c re ' r od itt e and the most honour paid the tax fairly instead of general statements. He had 1 33 '' f re ve, o , and was subjected to the least reduction, while those House that there had been a great increas.e_ u ut t ee fie who wished to evade the law either found the means in the Customs, but not a single word s a i l ) f r i s ete d V of doing so, or entangled the Government and them- titular articles on which that duty had 1 4 1 . ' s 011 1 ' 0 1 selves in the most expensive proceedings. Such being (Lord John Russell) believed that a5....1 far as th3betloo the evils of this tax he had heard with surprise from judged from returns presented to the _Bo I-Ion: 13 '1 1 e u„i' ° 3 the Right Hon. Gentleman on Friday night that regard to there d h u a t d ie h s which the eat Right ie.s to the re ve ;cl s ilt they were inseparable from it. He had sometimes r h ed em uce an , d t th e at the een re g a at g i r nerease in the Cos t ff .. 1; 4 0 thought that by different modifications, by alterations with respect to uncertain incomes, and by changing t been'solely on articles untouched by his ta o r i 6 ot P i s regard to the articles of consumption in th the tee;by particular provisions which bore hard upon particular schedules, there appeared a loss of 5,5001. on r oe bel t e classes, the tax might be rendered less vexatious. The reduced, but a gain of 17,000/. on those on see r of Right Honourable Gentleman had had three years the Right Hon. Baronet's measure. In the 7.'4 tat s e s to observe the operation of the tax, and there was no there was a gain on those not touched by _ 1 ,,,' by ;" .5 ef reason why he should not wish to make it more equal 1,695,0001., while the loss on those affeet s e . l- 40' .0 16 and less vexatious if he could. Yet he declared that 686,0001., leaving a total :gain on these . 'f t, it"`e c e it was impossible so to do, and that he 1,900,000/. Now as far as that statement si , e r ," o .bt v o e would show by argument that any attemptthat the proposition of the n i 'c' IPA appearßaronet had not been fairly put to le' r e p iy l i p' of that kind would but aggravate the injustice. The gain which had taken place had been ent • l o lool' ot to He did not pretend that the process was not vexatious to the improved condition of the country, _' to cq o ,o l B and inquisitorial.— (Hear, hear.) But what he harvests, revivals in trade and manufactures_ ±, t he P a h, argued on the last occasion on which the changes in the tariff. The Government,? ° t u b o y 1 5 01 , 0 0 0 property tax' was imposed was, that any attempt of Trade might have a case to show. If so in'. te d j to make any alteration would lead to a greater injus- thought the Right Hon. Baronet should P_ e gle;„ss, nice than that which it cured. He did not, and he the House what that case was, and why n n_e_ biv b o a` ,O . could not prove:that the defects were such as could not considerable increase on those articles 0 r " oe t P . Vof e f be remedied, but what he proved was that they were reduced the duties. The r T e h m e ev ß e ig 4 h o t o L tic r e : fro o r l eot p inseparable from the nature of an income-tax. What, to o atrut of th r e an tariff. But there was ane t /3 11 :sol° 0$ o f then, was the conclusion ? Why, that this was a tax duties, with regard to which the Right IDA . 0 0 0 ,0 0 whose great merit was its productiveness to the dealt differently. With regard to thoseie/Atievell revenue,.but which could only be imposed on great commercial policy to which he had alllg! ett of °oil and urgent necessity. When the Right Hon. Baronet pro- which were long ago settled in the opintu r a to rie ec e posed the income-tax last year, he alleged in its defence who at all looked into them, and with l'gathilt ,e,, 5 `03. the necessities of the times. He said that, although they were at peace with the powers of Europe, yet the addi- there was no opposition—one principle. an fe et a. c l : s ay was, that there should be no export dut). Ap ia e plea tions made to the armament in the Mediterranean, the war with China, with all the expenses which it entailed, Charge of manufactures. Another Pr ,l l s o , - eo l ie dgc, a duty on the raw materials and bo o , ito e% the war in Canada in the west, and near the Indus in These were excellent principles which wer e l e r e an fes pe e ,,, the east, though they did not . amount to an European by all. In 1721, Sir Robert Walpole 1. 1 3 tha t as f f :. war, constituted circumstances of emergency which, in tion by which no less than 130 articles m in re , re etti i his opinion, justified the imposition of the tax. He were affected. With regard, to thew t ue o t he , s oil' it went still further, and said, that in imposing this tax, he little dispute. Everybody was glad to 1 1 , 3 ) per soa t o of would not consider only the sum which it was requisite tion and to have the advantage of it• dot eall wo olid, to raise to balance their income and expenditure, but to w i s h to di s p u t e w ith the Bight Hon. Ge p o t,to o- „ t ie`,. make a provision for the alteration of certain duties on customs, that would increase commerce and invigorate was a good thing to take off the duty 0 11 coi l co 3 0$, t who would wish to see the export duty on d p eel' o f ,e si , industry, thereby trying an experiment which he thought Therefore, the Right Hon. Gentleman h a bo tioa o vr..ii would succeed in improving the condition of the people, tae of these circumstances in the aPP t witb_ o e. 1 0. 1,,, and at the same time get hack the amount of revenue principles, where he was not likely t° In,',. e pot ' O 3 i iii that had been sacrificed. He thought he was not stating tion. But there was another prinCiU s ipOle ~5 P i o inaccurately the grounds on a hich the Right Hon. Da- acknowledged, of which Sir Robert % he ll Y' ratt t : 04 ronet based the tax on its original imposition. But in statesman of his day were ignorant, but b „ s go s h i oi addition to the grounds so stated, they had also the re- developed and proved to demonstration s e tt a 0 c 00 ' r e marks of the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and a great writer, Dr. Adam Sn 3 it h ' inc iple b . he tl b io e during the last year, to the same effect. The Right Hon. soon after acknowledged to be a just Pe_ cio ie 1 , ,,,,„t0: A8 Gentleman, in adverting to the Budget he was then an authority than William Pitt—the Oru; ri ' c ode: ce rn °, introducing, explained the various reductions that ought to be no protective duties—thu.. t , td reS , ' m ist') o f were made, among which were several that did notof mane do ing s Oc • come into Mull operation till lately. The Right. Hon. to protect certain branches classes of industry, they were, in Inc' ', re nt , 0 01 i , i) Gentleman then said—" lam not able, on the short ex- one part of the community for the aPP ‘vs. bul be ef, o o perience we have had, to conjecture what would be the another; but that after all this benefit , s oil , o f e o e o s result of the reductions, still less what view the House rent benefit, because that very ease its n el e belr_ s id 0 would be disposed to_ take in the course of next year. whom they committed this injustice, c! _ b e ic_`' s i0_,,.,) Jn this year the income-tax would come under conside- they deprived the consumer of articles i „ore; r, lifF t o ration again, and then it would be for the House to de termine whether it should continue or not. Such l a den- - ,ee , e to buy, that very class itself. w as Ole d ey te l long run by that species of 'ewe being the case it must be obvious to every one that he should not be acting an honest part if he induced the But this, though a sound principle, i . 0 ,.. d . 613 :te j . ) l' a it t o'lly eatestwriters, and acknowledgeda"-;eo Ifootrit the House to consent to any large reduction of duties, Grenville, and Mr. Huskisson, and D which could only have the effect of preventing . Parlia.- ment from coming to an unfettered judgment on this werepart in ly o t r h t e hy, th commercial eeo m eof legislation state snl e.l o l: f_ t vi l , l :lo e , e e n p o i ; pois i ti i ) ; . °ol) ,, e re ‘4 4 subject, because if the reductions diminished other former principle in not being liar coo lie? w as r 4 l, branches of the revenue the House would have no al- easily admitted by all classes of t,,l ( :, at , eitt a a, s tr t af'pO o ternative but to reimpose the tax or take refuge in na.- the contrary, whenever a change o a r ''',' v i o le L' siv :o 3 , tional insolvency." The First Lord of the Treasury posed, they always found a fierce : s i.", ,„bo b u', o t h o ',,,ot o was said to be very reserved with respect to his inten on the part of the protected inte! I:; it, t. viol:Jo., tions, but he (Lord John Russell) must own that he did not only that itself an I all belongll2E:rticela.,.:ob oate. not think he would have been so reserved as to conceal nation itself was interested in the_ , F - Dv t i t:o : fi tl his intentions from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.— national industry.—(Hear , be ar krt ) ow ledg e° , v oti e sti e ; (Hear.) He had just given the grounds on which the truth of this principle was a a c - s ea th i " D 9e ae t o latter declined to make any great reduction of duties. writers and wise stetesnien aavl , e , w ith b or es „ t Now, in bringing forward his propositions the other deliberation should be used in doingan' ee t--i: ne reo ie l' e ii: evening, the Right Hon. Baronet lost sight of both • -, e In idea, there were no laws on the . eu t ' o e un a e i t to Viell i these grounds; and he certainly expected that the Right fit matter for legislation. If tb_eY was 0' ev eil",, j e , t l ii Hon. Gentleman would have shown some particular cir cumstances in the condition of the country, which called elantmemanitd a p f u r n a i u s d h or if atchteoyf could,felo ny, m l: ardefero . ro tol t ) ),.otor p re ia , eo.A.eel! ofo for a remedy of a formidable and searching nature. lie crimes. But when a man wa s , 6° _; o f iu stall .i j : in O r rr o y had scarcely touched upon either of these topics. He night, in order to produce a pie: other fix ti " wi ts iv ° o jet e e `, had never given any statement as to the reduction of the he wished to exchange for sore s _, an act to b 00 ) .., revenue. The Right Hon. Gentleman took a very popu- support himself and fan:dly—n r o u t es n 0 on th le tiol i far course—a course which produced great enthusiasm, all praise and approbation, a llow, D ear, of l e e e' l ' i t ), but which he thought was one attended with no incone fered with by legislation.—( that s pirit at o eieT tio gl, y , siderable danger to the country. The Right Honour- sition.) How perverted " d s eal of c e rl cae o urag e „,rec t t ' d able Gentleman showed that if they went on with- which turned from a great tried to e"" of er,ettOoel out an income-tax, there would be a small defi- : it was unable to prevent, tr. __ chan ge sce se, „ t h , i . ciency, the year after next, in the income—that to interfere with the natural _e_T iieb Tu e!i_ ar.) . 1 . : i00 5: 0 would be a ground for continuing the income-tax and to control that desire loy. ) l ( Leear,. l r the or rig ht h e for a short time, and the resolutions in- the Chairman's to earn an honest livelihor r and l ed w ere d t o Pi e hand seemed to justify the continuance of that tax for a nee ntiel!._ ht eee wo e Ce short time. But the Right lion. Gentleman went on with emir really .. i to were just principles those great men whom he a person " - t o to re", the consideration of a great number df other taxes, and ought to be the object ensd t° be a- ctivs s, 01 . _ t i, the duties which he proposed to abolish, and then, when Right Hon. Baronet p ro those restr i d, wit h f Eoc' e ir he had totally destroyed the surplus which remained, endeavour to break do of leg n t ' u tnooo police , a h l d i t ion °t. o t and left only 70,000/., he took advantage of the popu- and abolish those unjust re n atural cc ' t goo- Burets . 1 0 0' sh l a at d ion , larity which the abolition of taxation caused to induce and caution, restore a ne() the R i g h bring tinemoo the House to consent to the income. tax. . The result of With respect to sugar did remote, or ~ wee t 0 c oP t . l t io o that course would seem to be the imposition of the in- to terfere in any way rilear, ' h ear ' eope se t s ob ibl ,pe t come-tax, not merely for three years, but perpetually.— plan of legislation? — (' did lie not !) to tal ? ft c hc,ol l (Hear, hear.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken non.) On the contrary, this year, ti er n o ? _ i s , another course—if he had said, " Now look at my tariff by the law he brings in who sen t tii_ ii co lon fo ie! fo c —see what my tariff has produced ; see that, although against certain countries, f r om our o d w o th is by ro tla ce of the duties have not entirely recovered from their reduction, rate than - that obtained ropesed w ho only Prod ° 13 1 ,' they have been gradually increasing, and in three years Right Hon. Gentlem . vt_R ion, an d 1r was th,e .t leoll• so e_ I hope the original amount will be restored." ing the present proi lei. that the sagg the i lig" on o " p° s° The Noble Lord went on' to say that he regretted such a restriction was. He did think that 03 ethi v g) liP icd ci the course the Right Honourable Baronet had slave colonies. 0 eeded on ' c ' r, heare_ n o4 e her e taken ; no period in history could be shown in which the ronet should have pr e o , a.e _oiea iid rio t . t i ; oozy, le revenue had, from a reduction of taxation, increased to than on that pretence i. l ... ; nanee he n ", s hoal' oro _dot! the amount of 6,000,000/. ; for that, in three years, that the negotiator (w" zil to Gerela any foe oil to Pe e should be the amount it should increase to, in order to had been sent from Bra to adm it sug o ohje ct oac e4 l", balance the deficiency. It was not assigned as a reason on his return, proposinz yo gown n tton , I ; l' 11 sla'• for the continuation of the income tax, the position in would naturally say , gco _.,,,5... „ re _ s o f its relations which this country was placed by reason o slave-grown coffee, slave - . die vvv, I s h :' . e lb i f ei with foreign States, because the Hon. Baronet said they psi- bear) tobacco—( ll . ' ' - - ' a °lle in ticles wi g - or t i ' l fer t44 o other a r to st l e- t eall eit were at peace with all foreign powers ; neither was it no objection to admitw,, respec t, , , $ll justified by reason of the reduction or the abolition of grown, _ an d _evert it",„. send 11 - O. Y-7: 8 01 duties the Hon. Baronet had proposed ; therefore 'he have no objection, eu (L or d J o h n B o wl) was justified in saying that the la.' to 13 sta ii, an d WS ofOr - -