The Sun. — London, England, 1850-04-24 00:00:00

lOW' portunitl qoal ber h ' : thOuP . n retur n led. in i c itlri reatu)en,‘ LOIN Ban"o ec ' ;f P e ing 0"` gur al; Lt., he B " tst a one: ,°„, the P .° s . to stew bear') E piSar doOr F f 9d ';a' A e f bra' he e•° uld.a bui to h he P° l eltod 011 i to Ire' ILI' he ,rd at t ee d ) P roc ,nionie. aigm prO - 0 r°°ll6 THE SUN, 'ere entered at the tno Universities were invested with ° l 3' orde we_ rs• The Universities ought to be the seats of meat )fanggenerally, not confined to particular brance h , o ` t `uY, atid he h o p e d to see the day when the ihtproec he had suggeeted would be fully carried out. sii4Ymel got into debt very freentl at theyniver lives , whic e l l Weighed them down during all their future knew instances of clergy men not . e b e e r in e g te & i : payte he their debts incurred at the kne e ' "tit an advanced period of lite. lie alien man who had spent 2,0001. during his asve taf ce.„, 8 4 an university; and he dared say thei r Ai:Lemberg in that House had covered father's tables with bills incurred by them at tee rav ersifie s tni se i 4 •He objected, too, to the distinctive ac,aile taeear.csaes which the different students wore a, the . e ffetie •eity ; he thought there should be no dis llneeril u 1 this respect among the students. lia ise ad these cir cums t anc es he hoped the Whit h ilwould consent to the Commission of inquiry n gone Proposed. The Honourable Member tri es of „ reading his motion, given above, amidst sir riear, hear." by c '• 1 , 11 . INGLIS complained of the course taken king fe '° l3 . Member for North Lancashire in draq; th e "rward tee corporations in the Universities in leffltaanner which he had _done, without any grounds dr e 4 e given for having done so. In a pamphlet ad thebpothe First Lord of the Treasury, he believed toe rf t! of indictment which the Hon. Member wished Itte ed. u g„,against the Universities was pretty generally thet the the first proposition of the Hon. Member was, . e ec u c e. interests of religion and education bad not ad aut ete 1 ? the ancient Universities to an extent commeni Ilteefhwith their great resources ; but not one word o o. this etat a : l in t2ae Hon. Member brought forward to support ese -- `ut• He did not mean to deny the right of otii titf ' o s'cru of visitation, but he did not allow the uncond s_cf 111 141 right that the Noble Lord at the Le d a 44 tleeotnthe. bds tebe Governrnent should choose a Member here and a Whi le ,' t here, as it suited him, to form a Commission, supervision of the Lord Chancellor; that was The right of visitation which he could not consi t e e -uh e e Universities had, from the earliest ages, been aad aced the nurseries of the Church of England, that respect, therefore, he differed from the pro --at" ? me t down by the Hon. Member. He considered blatte`ulaent had no power to interfere in spritual pamphlet connected with the Universities. That dee e contained what he would not other use ever Ignate than mistakes. No oath was 1%37 telt, en by the students; it was abolished in the Vicesl lieu of th e oat h, t h e y were admonished by the lee, e llancellor to obey the statutes. He warned tit ) ! h me Lord (L or d J . Russell), and indeed his saga -1104. Zi already di scovere d i t, t h at t h e rea l object of the lett er t , r aber w as to f ac ili tate t h e admission of Dis of th e Into the Universities. It wan really a question of la admission of Dissenters into those seminaries Yea Ce e ' e u g• This was not a new question. In the °Ccupiupon the presentation of a petition, it had ke n . three days of discussion in that House. The fore petition he thought, from the Dissenters of Brad „ote Yorkshire. They claimed a right of admission L h e / 1 . - s c' e ,f ol leges except one. He denied that right. ~aeleee t ti b e e majority of the colleges had the greatest elle n " proof their property respectively from Protestants. tad r t r h clerty the Protestant Church, Was to the uses of h awa s e b, members of the Church of Rome could not " claim admission. So propert con 'hereetu the uses of the established Episcopal a uY # c ould not be reasonably enjoyed by it *es ono members of that communion. Agai n, leek te 'aid that colleges were necessarily confined to fi let teat tutors from amongst their own fellows, and tta % 4t system was fatal to the production of emin ence tl e k e g t et th em. But neither the fact as state d, nor the Hell l em tak en f rom it, was true. Th e s y s t e m worked t ,':ttee e tt er s an enum era ti on of the acquirements of the , t nf ll 4l shove. It was described es a hardship that tat e , c ra Were c om p e ll e d t o re m a in unmarried; but the t e ,,, t s r ! i alth eough chosen from the fellows, were not ne tteh; eto remain unmarried; for, although a tutor ! j ail eC lv e up his f e ll ows hip, he was not required to re had o :8 tutorshi. Many of them were married. He ert iefi 4 l that morning received a letter from one of them, e et a s d e a wife and three charming children.—(A. laugh.) f ar te tl e - ts "uw Surrounded by his colleagues the members t he i ef ; U niversities, and they would be able to give all ilteef''rolation that was required, without any special t,t;th ordina ry commission of inquiry. Another charge e`th 43 te l-tau • Gentleman wee that the university career I , lls ili t nnesined up in fey ' words, as it consisted in but eating dinners, going to church, and silie,,,e.ueeks. Now, what did young men go to a Ass; ~B u Y for b ut t o re ad books? Was it not a thei r " t i their duty? Ws it, not equally a part of atte e , u tY to go t o chur h a ?•—/ Hear, hear.) And as for ile e lZ ) dinners, that was an inevitable necessity.—(A • tr i t At td The prof( ssional system of education was more 14 sf ere to the inf anc y than the maturity of learning. kee l : t he c invention of printing it was almost the only tie e - ti a ' diffusing the knowledge of various branches of ractiL ll ` and courses which required the illustration of e oy te r" experime n t s could now only be properly fol uP by that system. The University of Oxford le f o ci ' lean almost abolished the professional system i 'lltee elr ? of the tutorial system. That University con efoUreand-twenty colleges, and each college was 4.s itY within itself; and professed to give a com ae coots ® of education. He felt totally at a loss to 44, 4 4.4 ' for the apathy evinced by many of the old of tha t of Oxford University, who were now Members b,`" ) th e "Ouse, and in this ease he alluded particularly e " Noble Lord. (Lord John Russell), who should thatchl'illitia,cf the first supporters of such institutions, in he regretted to say that the Noble Lord was on tinai: e ' a ut occasion too quiescent. He should, conel.u ja fT t ti j a y that from his knowledge of these Universities 41, 4 ,his duty to oppose the motion. He then al those cliff"oe superior qualifications of the professors in tha t erent colleges, and expressed his astonishment latir e r e Y charge should be brought . either against those ee r `rgentlereen, or against himself. the • tO RTESCUE felt it to be his duty to support fs el r4tie u of the Hon. Member, although he did not th e ttitaself called upon to agree in all the opinions of kite s ?°. Member on the subject. The first changes It efo ' 0 1 those institutions took place in the days of the e t ilw is e ; ati nn, and they had since undergone many `, 1 , 11 d ' - e "e Be admitted that since 1800 the Univerities t he : Le many advances in the direction of reform; but Ni l :at cursory g l anc e showed that there were many col a ,' c onnected with them, and with the interests, as t erom ‘e 'l with them, of the students, which called for Would' , Without the aid of public opinion, however, it Ne t ue Usele ss t o h o p e f o r any great change in those Woul d in th e wa y o f general improvement. It ee th eill become him to say anything that could reflect los e e a character of their Universities, and he should be t hem , t 0 any unfriendly course adopted in relation to course The Hon. Member then took a review of the tie s, — of studies marked out for pursuit at our Universi teed 4 .1 11 , t1 Commented upon them in relation to their in opi4- purposes. With respect to Latin, it was the tee to uh f Sydney Smith that there was a great deal • kle - , e u study bestowed on it in the Universities. ‘thi e f' o u r ld not but regret the different changes had been made in their Universities, di kle'eeT them from their original foundation. Itte e ,;•'"teed to see that there was, notwithstanding, a ise y " t iß spirit of reform in their Universities,, particu it4 ve l s il e the University of Oxford; and if the State, in C 5 te l e - r ° , l ci• would so direct its attention to the subject ' 11 (1 ar i" 4 aTge the basis of education in their Universtiee, llasti o e'rcit the different classes of the community to a Pele ie l l'ation in its benefits, it would be effecting a great With,the And this the State might do Ivita,„ -a aid of the immense funds of the Universities, Pere e -- " d iverting ono shilling of those funds from the t he t' e ; for which they were originally intended. 0 . f tertnsee'esiastical Commission he could not but speak in its ate; e 4t eenect and commendation, as having directed the et--`tien in the f a irest and most unbiassed manner to th ey at e of their Universities, and the objects tor which l lttet:,' e r e originally instituted. The Hon. Member . Of th e t ,"" 0 Work of a German philosopher on the subject , 55 to t eriglish Universities, and cited a passage from it "Rae e ft ce rtainty of a reform taking place in them when W 55 ee ee ?' s ite , may demand it, although he (the writer) that a"eJUdiced against any interference with them in th Z t e rki_ ;::::: i ng attached to th eir operation as he found ;_iat ( ! e a ud concluded by repeating that he felt great sa giving his support to the motion of the Hon. lo ur ' F AGAN did not think it necessary to follow the 'Dace e a r e cluet (Si r R. I n glis) in all the observations C ould -a uad made on this momentous subject; but he )1 no taro ne Ut comment on the assertion of the Hon. `, ithout,that Rumen Catholics ought not to be educated, lie Without restraint, in the Universities of this country. %l e l/4 'st tell the Hon. Baronet that the University in were originally au Catholic founda , - iit ,, o o f 'Lea by Roman Catholics, and for the educe a R oman Catholic s . Since 1793.4, Roman Catho tee e"e admitted into the Dublin University, and I . here w ; .annually permitted . to . enter for education Ited " subject to great restrictions. It was . c , lcu- , ete efu hat more than 1-75th part of the " honours" and all th meats of the University, to that of the whole, was sen t fell to their lot; and since 1794, up to the pre dent .. ' w i t! r th ee e e pserage number of Roman Catholic stu :Nset",' wed education in the University did not ' , loa m, .more than 30 in each year. He could . make Pre te ce, in the case of the fellowships, for a desire to ter ty ° an • ieloe. exclusiveness in favour of a . particular eluder. but why should Roman Catholics be pre; te _ Irene the emoluments of the scholarsh iv ip en let th ' e c , e University ? Scholarships were 4 4 4 1 0 114'0 e neat of all the students, and they surely g d cicel ?Pen to all.—(llear, hear.) He knew . that "Ate' c alvene 82 was kept up for the purpose of in etholies to conform to the Protestant religion.Duhl. "Kt refer to the charter of the University of w th e e ffl i li ,_ . e an at d h t n i e li e e r s e f e r v o a ta s n h o e t i h ng ing in that charter to prevent has f' s ututim a admitted to the benefita of io that But the system of which he complained whi c e Wh ichwas encouraged and acted on in a country sari " there were or had been until the famine swept Lath e un med th • l i es their ranks, upwards of 7,000,000 of Roman Be tvati en ; The Hon. Baronet, in the course of his ob re fr , Stated that a single college in Oxford was an that e n f g r t ersity; but be (Mr. Fagan) knew, however b e , that the colleges of the Universities were they or. Y Catholic foundations and he must say that he now, as originally,. open for the public e wet al '' hear) It was said that the Univer uesieed to intended for the education of young men who Ate, let teeernter into holy orders; but to that he would tart`ar e the ee he other colleges instituted, and forming ot eet e Y. r versity, in which young men not intend seeer. r lute h o l y th •P ler ee . orders might receive the benefits at in file uaion. He wished particularly to see \v , Geld th en f !atse of Trinity College, Dublin, and he Tri t e ly elLi a ,''e no objection to its retaining the name of ev a e tabli ii e r " oe 40 was one of those who advocated the L 'eu th e tit of the provincial colleges in Ireland, ?w, i n h ?' Were first introduced into Ireland, and he t' a 'l P l a.ce in Parliament, repeated that he was 'at el ler , their in troduction int that country, believing ' were greatly calculated to center benefit on ad all of e lona he hoped would eveii themselves of heir vauteges. While there were provincial colleges in Ulster, Munster, and Connaught why should Roman Catholics be excluded from the colle -e in the province of Leinster and the city of Dublin? He could only hope that the House would carry out to its full extent the reform of this great University, and that under the sanc tion of Victoria, the intention of Elizabeth, the founder, would he adopted. Mr. NAPIER characterised the statements which had been made ran ecting Trinity College us totally on f tundet. In the fist place, the land revenues of Trinity College were less than the sum annually voted by the Rouse :or Ma) nooth College. He denied that Dissen ters and Catholics were excluded from the honours and emoluments of Trinity College. They participated in all except the fellowships and scholarships, which were connected with the foundation of the University, and in Erasmus Smith's professorship. The object in founding Trinity College was for the purpose of main taining the Protestant religion. Up to 1793 Catholics were excluded altogether, but in that year they were admitted to take degrees, while they we:e carefully pre vented feom becoming lay members of the corporation. Out of the land revenues of 30,0001. a year, nearly 4,000/. were open to Catholics. The scholarships to which it was now sought to admit Catholics were not founded by Elizabeth, but by Charles the Second. Mr. O'Connell had given evidence before a Committne of the House of Commons, that it would not be wise to admit Catholics to scholarships, inasmuch as he considered they were intended solely for the benefit of Protestants. The proportion of Catholic to Protestant students was about one-tenth, or the same proportion as the Catholic wealth and influence of the country bore to the Protes tant. The organ of the Catholics in this country ad mitted that even if the scholarships were thrown open to the Catholics it would not satisfy the Catholic popula tion. They should have Catholic service and Catholic supervision, and a purely Catholic system of education. The present system had worked well and harmonising, and if it were disturbed by forcing Catholics in on the foundation of the University, they would be looked upon as an aggressive body, and for his part, if this extreme step were persisted in, he, for one, should much rather see them entirely excluded. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then applied himself to the portion of the motion which advocated an extension of the interests of religious and useful learning, com mensurate with the great resources and high position of the Universitea He contended that sufficient progress had been made and that everything was done which the requirements cf the age demanded. Every branch of sound knowledge and useful science was carried out in Trinity College, and the system of university education there adopted was without a single blot. The salaries of the senior fellows did not exceed 1,500/. per annum, and those hard-worked and industriotis men, the junior fel lows, who directed their mental energies and physical la bours to the cause of education, did not realise more than 6001. or 7001. per annum. No commission was neces sary to enable the fellows to marry—for, by an old statute of St. Patrick, it was provided that priests should have wives. —(Hear, hear.) The consequence of the system of tenure of the college lands led to the great sub-letting and sub-division of land, which was one of the great evils under which the country lay. The very worst college lands were held upon a lease of lives renewable for ever. He could not see, under these cir cumstances, of what use a Royal Commission could be in altering this state of things. The proper question was, whether the property held by the University of Dublin had been properly applied to the objects of the founder, and to a useful dissemination of knowledge throughout Ireland. If it had, then he contended that not a shadow of a case had been made out for interfer ing with this celebrated institution, and least of all by means of a Roy al Commission. Mr. SADLEIR said he thought the Learned Gentle- mast who had just spoken had properly confined his ob servatious to the state of Trinity College, Dublin. He confessed, however, that he was disappointed with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech, for he had ex pected, from the declaration which he once male, that Christianity was his creed, and his country his politics, that he was about t i speak in a liberal strain of the ad vaittages which would be afforded by that institution, or that he would have approved, in f .ct, of the proposition once mace in the It ieh House of Commons, by the cele brated Claudius Beresford, the kinsman of the Honour able Member for Essex, that Trinity College should be thrown open to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. As to the relative number of Catholics and Pro testants that enter that college, it is right that the House should remember that whilst there wete only thirty-two Catholics that entered it there were 350 Protestants. The Hon. and Learned Member had repeated to the House that it was thrown open to all claeses of society in Ireland without distinction of creed, though it was establi.hed for the benefit of Protestants only. View in the debate which occurred on this subject in the session of 1845, when it was brought forward by the Hon. and Gallant Member fhr Middlesex, it was stated that according to the terms of the charter granted to the college, after it had been endowed out of the con fiscated estate of the Earl of Desmond, the object of the institution was to disseminate knowledge and civility' throughout the Irish poor. In those words there was not the slightest allusion to creed of any kind. lie (Mr. Sedleir) was quite sure in this respect, and with refer ence to the principle and policy by which the University managed its lands, there were strong and cogent reasons for acceding to that portion of the motion of the Honourable Member for North Lancashire which re lated to Trinity College, Dublin. The subject of the cultivation of the vast territories owned and cold vated by Trinity College had been investigated in a Committee of the House of Commons, and the evi dence there given was strongly condemnatory of the system of cultivation pursued by the provost and fellows. Under the present system, there was not nearly the amount of produce derived from the land which it was capable of yielding. At this day, when ever a piece of land belonging to the college became va cant, instead of listening to the proposal of an intelli gent or practically agricultural occupying tenant, the college would bestow the land on any sir or squire who was willing to put himself in the false position of being a middleman, by which he transmitted to the college about 75 per cent. of the rent only which he received from his sub-tenants. All who were acquainted with the relations between landlord and tenant in Ireland knew that the middleman system was one of the greatest Curses which the country laboured under, and yet here it was practised by the very heads of the Metropolitan University. The operation of this system, and the great disadvantages which resulted from it, were put under a strong point of view, by the report on the subject made by the board of guardians of a union in the county of Kerry, where the college had extensive possessions. He hoped that that system would be put an end to, and that some method would be ultimately adopted by which the many evils he had adverted to might be obviated, and the means of the college better enabled to effect the great objects which it had in view. Mr. HAMILTON said he was unwilling to render this debate an exclusively Irish one, and he should, therefore, content himself by expressing an earnest wish that these serious evils might be considered and remedied. Colonel THOMPSON was bound to thank the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford for bringing up before his eyes those Dissenters of Yorkshire whose case he had introduced into this debate, because it removed some considerable difficulty which he should have other wise experienced in determining what vote to give on this occasion. He should have felt a difficulty in sup porting, the motion if he thought he should have been judged as giving a harsh decision against the University with which it was his boast and his happiness to be con nected. and of which he could never speak without the most friendly sentiments. But there were flaws even in that University, and one was the exclusion of Dissenters from all participation in the advantages it gave to the public. He did believe that that was a point on which, without the smallest unfriendliness, he was authorised to say they mat in the end give way, simply because it was not just, and not in accordance with the events that were daily taking place in the world. To the Dissenters, however, he would say, that if they were desirous of ob teining the advantages of a collegiate education, the most likely way to advance their object would be to establish a college of their own. Ho could not allow one dictum of the lion. Member for the University of Oxford to pass without, at all events, expressing his disagreement with it. The lion. Gentleman had said that no right existed on the part of that House of Parliament —meaning thereby the whole Government of the country, of which that House was a component part—to interfere with the de cisions or doctrines of the church named of England. That dictum could not be passed over, because he (Col. Thompson) knew that it was contrary to the opinion of a large portion at least of the Members on his (the Minis terial) side of the House. There were many who be lieved that a compact existed between the Church of England and the State. If the Wesleyans or the Society of Friends chose to establish an exclusive system of education, they were at perfect liberty to do so, because they held no revenues from the State. But he and his friends maintained that there was a compact with the Church of England; and that it was not from any ab s=tract merit or desert that its revenues were given to it, but because its doctrines coincided with the opinions of the great mans of the inhabitants of this country; and if ever, unhappily, it should come to pass that the doc trines of the Church of England should cease to coin cide with the opinions of the majority of the people, then he and his friends maintained that there would exist a right on the part of Parliament to enter into the question as to the future application of its revenues. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that in addressing the House on the important subjeet then under discussion, he felt very sensibly the great disadvantage of having no per sonal experience in respect to those two great Universi ties which were mainly the subject of the present mo tion. It NW, however, a subject upon which he thought it was necessary (brought before the House as it had been), that some member of the Government should state the views which the Government were disposed to take of it. It was for that purpose that he had risen to ad dress the House. In the first place he would observe that he did not think it would be possible for him to agree to the motion as it was now placed before the House, combining as it did a great number of questions, and placing them in a form which had induced his Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford to say that the motion constituted a bill of indictment against the Universities. Now, in whatever way he might view this subject, he must in the outset declare that he saw no cause for adopting any plan cf proceeding to which the term " indictment" could be applied; nor could he see any cause for considering that thee Universi ties were objects of accusation by the majority of that House. There was another part of the subject likewise which, in his opinion, ought to bo kept totally apart from the main object and purport of that motion. The question of the admission of Dissenters to the Universi ties, important as it was, should not, in his judgatent, be considered together with a question that related to any improvements in the plan of education that might be pursued in those Universities. Whether Dissenters " ' -. .._ -6—a— : -vit h CI t':! r tle y shoal), ne admitted to the honours conferred by the Universities—and how far these or any other admissions should extend—these were questions of prin ciple which, as the Hon. Member had correctly said, were debated several years ago ut great length in that House, on the occasion when his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) made an able speech in favour of the admis sion of Dissenters t the Universities, supported by rea sons which, in his (Lord J. Russell's) opinion, bad never been answered. It was quite unnecessary to ask gentle men to sit in commission on a question which was really one to be settled by Parliament, and on which the Irish Parliament did decide, when they allowed that Roman Catholics should be admitted to degrees in the University of Dublin. He did not think, therefore, they should take into consideration the question of the admis sion of Dissenters. But when he proceeded to the other and more important questions, with respect to the edu cation which was given in our English Universities— approaching that subject with all that care and with all that respect which he felt for those Universities, he must in the first place say that he did not think there could be any objection in principle—he did not conceive that even his Hon. Friend the Member far the University of Oxford could make any objection in principle—to the appointment of a Commission to consider the state of those Universitieswith regard to the nature of the educa tion they imparted. On the subject of precedents for issuing such a Commission, allusion had already been made to some that were most apposite. A Commission of Inquiry into the state of the Church of England had, with all due respect to the Church of England, been made with the consent of the Archbishops of that Church. A Commission of Inquiry into the Scotch Universities had been issued, on which Commission the principals of some of the colleges of those Universities were placed. So also a Commission of Inquiry, generally, into en do eed schools for the education of the poorer classes, was issued under Lord Brougham's Act. All these were precedents which showed that there was no objec tion in principle to the appointment of a Commission on this subject. Nay, they showed still further that those who were the leading persons in authority in these Uni versities ought not to consider that it was any disparage ment to them if a Commission were appointed upon a subject so important to the people of Great Britain. — (Hear, hear.) Having thus stated what he thought was the material principle involved in this question, he would proceed to consider whether there was any case —whether there was any ground of reason or of expe diency why such a Commission should be appointed now.—(" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp, which ex cited much laughter.) Its considering that question they must bear in mind the changes which these Uni versities had of late years undergone. It was ge generally agreed, and it must be agreed by all who approved of the changes which had taken place, that .the education given in our Universities some 20 years, or even so lately as 10 years ago, was not adequate to the knowledge and wants of the present day.—(Hear hear.) It had been stated to him in a letter by a person engaged in the task of education at Oxford, that some ten years ago chymistry was entirely neglected, that al though honours were conferred in mathematics, mathe matics were little attended to, that modern history scarcely received any attention, and that, even on the subject of classical education, there existed a great de ficiency of attainment. The writer of the letter said : —" I have stated that our studies were almost exclusively dialectical. How limited the range of reading has been of late is seeu when we reflect that mathematics, though encouraged by the offer of high honours, are but little cvltivated among us; that an acquaintance with the ele ments of natural sciences is rare ; that law, though we give degrees in that faculty, has long been neglected; that modern history has never formed part of our sys tem; that political economy is looked upon with fear and aversion— nay, that the knowledge of ancient history exhibited by the able it students seldom goes beyond the contents of Herodotus and Thu cvdtdes, and the first decade of Livy, with the addition of a small portion of Tucitus. It is confessed by all that the art of writing Latin well is possessed by few, and Greek was never well written here. But what will per haps surprise your Lordship, neither Homer, nor Cicero, nor Demosthenes, nor Plautus, nor Quintilian, nor Te rence, nor the minor Greek orators, nor Lucretius are read by any large portion of even the most diligent young men; and that it is seldom, indeed, that they are pre sented at the public examinations." His correspondent went on to state, that within the last few years this de fect had been corrected; that his University was no longer open to that reproach, that these matters had been made the subjects of attention and study, and that examinations ;had been ordered with respect to them. But, after allowing for all the claims that could be made for the improvements introduced into those Universi ties, there evidently existed still a very great defect in the system of education pursued in them, a defect which must be admitted by all who candidly considered the subject. It was true that, by the decisions that had been lately made both at Cambridge and at Ox ford, the important subject of modern history and the other subjects which he had mentioned, had been admitted as questions for examination, and thence had become subjects of study at the colleges ; but then tee question arose how to combine that which had been hitherto the distinctive character of our Universities — namely, the study iu the colleges by tutorial instruction, with the instruction by professors who were named and appointed to teach those important subjects. On this point those with whom he had spoken—who had been educated at these Universities, and who had taken an important part in education there—had stated that there was a considerable defect still existing, and that that defect consisted very much in the restrictions which were placed by the will of the founders, and by the deeds of endowment of the several colleges with regard to the mode of electing to the fellowships of those col leges. Unless that detect were entirely removed the great change introduced at Oxford and Cambridge could never give the full proof which ought to be expected. It ought to be expected, from the introduction of lectures on modern history, chymistry, political economy, that the young men would have in the colleges suf ficient instruction upon these subjects to enable them to derive all the benefit of the lectures they should hear from the professor. There were two reasons for a de ficiency ; one, that the professors could not obtain the attendance of the young men sufficiently often and with sufficient continuity of attention to enable them to de rive all the benefit they ought ; and, next, that the col leges, having been instituted with a view to a mode of instruction more favourable to classical learning at Ox ford, and to mathematical at Cambridge, there were not in those colleges fellows who were able or inclined, from their studies, to carry the young men on in the know ledge of those parts of learning which t he two Universi ties, of their own accord, had declared to be necessary to a good education. The present Professor of Modern History in the University of Cambridge, Sir James Ste phen, as that gentleman had informed him (Lord John Russell), could give only one lecture per week, of one hour, or an hour-and-a-half, or two hours duration. Instruction of an hour or an hour-and-a-half, and that during term time, was not sufficient on so important and great a subject. It was therefore necessary to combine that education which was to be given by professors, according to the system adopted, with the ancient collegiate manner of teaching which had prevailed in the Universities, and which he (Lord John Russell), for ono, would be very sorry to see destroyed, or even diminished.—(Hear, hear.) But, not wishing to in troduce anything in the direction of instruction by lectures beyond what the Universities themselves had introduced by the steps they had taken from time to time—the last, by the University of Oxford, only within a few hours—he thought it desirable to combine that mode of instruction with the collegiate, which was the established mode of instruction in the Universities. The obstacle was the manner in which, by various Acts, by the wills of the founders in many instances, fellows must be taken from a certain family or county ; and there were other restrictions of. the same kind. It ought to be the object totcombine these two educations in such a way that, the fellows of colleges should be among the men who were the best instructed, not only in classics and Mathematics, but also in various branches of study —(Hear, hear)—and that they should direct the atten tion of the young men, not solely or exclusively to those branches of study which had hitherto been taught, but be able to assist them in all the professorial instruction, which, without the other, would be very much lost. — (Hear, hear.) There did not appear to be any great uillioulty in attaining that object, which at the same time was ore which could not be attained by the Universities themselves. It was only in some very rare instances that they had been able with great pains to discover that they had power to iteform their statutes. Supposing it desirable to make these changes, was there any conclusive reason why they should not be attempted? There did not appear to be any.—(Hear, hear.) The only reason which could be alleged was, that such re spect ought to be paid to the will of the founders that it ought not to be interfered with even for a great and im portant good. That principle could hardly be contended for by his Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford, who must allow that the change, on the de sirableness of which he (Lord J. Russell) agreed, that took place at the Reformation, was a change setting en tirely aside the will and intentions of the founders— (Hear, hear)—and applying institutions for purposes akin to the purposes for which they were founded; though there was an entire diversity in the application of the funds from that intended by the founders, who, in many instances, had left those funds for Roman Catholic purposes. When the Hon. Gentleman very placidly ob served that the Church of England reformed itself, it was to be remarked that there was a great deal to be said as to the reformation of the Church and also of the Uni versities; because, if one looked to the heads of col leges, he would find that a certain master was appointed by Edward VI.; that iu the time of Mary another mas ter was put in; and, again, in the time of Elizabeth that master was forcibly ejected, and a new master and a new head put in his place. His lion. Friend might call that the Church of England reforming itself, but, in fact, it was a very strong interference of the State—(Hear) — and carried out with all the will and determination which characterised the two sisters, Mary and Elie. sbeth.— (Eleer, hear.) What was there, if a great object were in view, to prevent interference so far with the wills of these founders as to enable the colleges to place in the situation of fellows, zed thereby assist in the education of the youth of these two Universities, the most capable men whom they could find in each University or else v. here ?—(liear, hear.) In the report of the Scotch University Commission it was said, with reference to the University of Aberdeen : " One objection, which was very strongly urged, was, that the union of the two independent Universities ne cessarily involved a violation of foundation charters and deeds of endowment, as well as an infringement on the vested rights of individuals. Considering that the foundation charters of both Universities proceed on the narrative of its having been the ebject of their founders to promote religion and sound [ranting in the north of Scotland, we were not disposed to attach muce importance to this objection as directed g oust a plan which was clearly calculated to further tnnaci ends_ WGI were. moreover. disposed to think that LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, APRIL 24 , 1850. eel•eee the rights of present incumbents ere reserved entire such an ergurneut against legislative interference for the public good with trusts constituted for the public benefit was not entitled to any weight." Ho must observe, however, that the Commissioners went on to say, that if the object could bo accomplished with out interference it would be preferable; but if the end for which the funds were given was kept in view—pro moting religion and sound learning—they held that there was a right to interfere. So with respect to the univer sities of Oxford and Cambridge. Though the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford said the argument applied to three or four colleges only of Oxford, yet in some of these which were among the most richly en do wed there was what in mechanical science would be called a waste of power to a great extent, so that with the most learned persons employed in the education of youth the object was not attained, owing to the manner in which the foundation deeds were so literally complied with. How was a remedy to be applied? Some people said a Bill ought to be introduced enabling the Univer sities and colleges to make the necessary changes. But it appeared to him (Lord J. Russell) with respect to a question of this kind, and.some others akin to it, that an inquiry by a Royal Commission would be eminently ser viceable, and would tend to make the changes in the Universities more complete and efficient. It was his intention, therefore, not to vote for the motion, and he had to state that it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to advise her Majesty to issue a Royal Commission to inquire into the revenues and education of the two Universities. There would have been an ap pearance of hostility in issuing a commission of inquiry ten years ago, when such a proposition was made; but if there were persons approving inquiry who belonged to those Universities, had been educated in them, and re tained feelings of regard and reverence for those places of education, and if the inquiry to be made was to be made in a friendly spirit, ha could not see that anything but benefit would result. The inquiries to be instituted would, he thought, be of the utmost advantage to the education of the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) It was stated that 1,600 young persons were educated at Oxford. That education might be extended to a much greater number. The people of this country, without entering into the question of churchmanship and dissent, had the greatest interest in seeing that these funds were applied to the encouragement of sound learning and to the instruction of the youth at the most moderaee rate. — (Hear, hear.) Such, he believed, was in fact the inten tion which animated the founders of the greater part, if not the whole of these colleges. When they were founded, the greatest desire prevailed among men of wealth and property, and among the sovereigns and princes of this realm, to promote education in the largest sense, according to the best knowledge that could be procured.—(Hear, hear.) His belief was, that by pro moting education in the largest sense, combined with the religion and morality which these great institutions were sure to maintain iu the present day, they would be adding another security for the maintenance of their in stitutions, and be teaching a larger body of the people to look to these Universities as places where their sons might obtain the best eduction that could be attained, and might be fitted for the purposes of life.—(Hear, hear.) Nor was he in the least deterred by the conside ration that the Universities had educated the most e minent men of this country. It young men of talent were sent to a University they would excel in that place, and afterwards in Parliament and the councils of their country. The question was, whether all the education was given to young men during youth that could be given to enable them to fulfil " nobly and magnanimously" in the language of Milton, the offices and diities to which they might be called. He, therefore, hoped that, while the House need not come to a decision on the motion, a Commission, which should b© appointed with the view of aiding and assisting the Universities in the noble object of reform which they had before them, would be received by them as a token of the interest which the Crown took in their welfare, and would be the means of making them still more useful and still more learned than they had approved themselves hitherto.—(Cheers.) Mr. GOULBURN regretted that, however disposed to go along with the Noble Lerd in the commencement and in many parts of his speech, his feeling of satisfac tion had been greatly diminished by the concluding an nouncement that it was intended to advise the Crown to issue a Commission of Inquiry into the revenues and education of the Univerities of Oxford and Cambridge —(dear, hear.) It was impossible for any man, even on the other side of the House. who had a regard for the honour aed interest of the Universities, to agree to the motion which had given rise to this discussion. The admission of Dissenters to the Universities was a question to be decided by Parliament, and not by a Commission. He was not prepared to enter on a discussion as to the legal right of such a Commission, because, if the object was to benefit the Universities, he was convinced that the appointment of a Commission was not the proper mode.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted that great changes had been effected practically in the Universities, that great improvements had been made in the mode of teach ing and the extent of knowledge to which the students were introduced. They had been introduced without the aid of a Commission.—(Hear, hear.) The efforts ot the Universities would be thwarted, controlled, and defeated by such a measure. Everything might be done by the Universities and the Crowu, on consul tation, and in concurrence, adopting impro v e ments which ' might be mutually suggested. The Noble Lord rejoiced that ten years ago a Commission was not issued; he would, ten years hence, rejoice if the present measure was not carried out.—(Hear, hear.) They ought to bear in mind what had been done by the concurrence of the Crown and the Universities during the last ten years. Ile was speaking of a Commission which should carry the complete concurrence of the body into which it had t'o inquire. Ile would ask whether the Secretary of the Home Department had not had the Crown and the authorities ot the University concurring when most valuable amendments of the statutes wets submitted to his consideration on the part of a college of Cambridge? Why did the Noble Lord adopt a different course ot action? That a great deal had been done within the last ten years was undisputed and indisputable; the pro fessors' lectures were open to all; new branches of study had been introduced; but, said the Noble Lord, the time allotted to the professors' lectures was so ex tremely short, that it was impossible , any progress could be made in a particular science. In the first place, under the new system it was not merely the Professor of Modern History who was to give lec tures in his own particular bi l anch, but duties of a cor responding character had been imposed on other pro fessors; and if men were to be instructed iu many branches of knowledge it was impossible to assign to each that full measure of instruction which it appeared to be the object of the Noble Lord to give to those who studied modern history. But was the Noble Lord right as to the tact with regard to modern history? why, he must be notoriously misinformed, for the fact was that Sir James Stephen gave throe lectures a week to numerous and crowded audiences, receiving that tribute of applause to which his knowledge and talents pro-eminently entitled him. That was a matter assuredly on which the Noble Lord need not think it necessary to send a Com mission to Cambridge to inquire into. But the Noble Lord said ho must have his Commission, because he wanted to engraft on the tutors a knowledge of those sciences now. taught by the professors. He (Mr. Goul burn) did not deny that, having made one great change in the university system by opening new honours to new branches of learning, therefore some changes of a subor dinate nature mightnot also be necessary; but those who had made the great change were surely competent to make the minor changes that might be requisite. — (dear, bear.) The Universities had acted neither hastily nor rashly; but the Noble Lord set up some new theory of statutes altogether, and stated that the colleges im posed a prohibition on the election to fellowships of men who were competently informed on the several new branches of education which had been introduced into the University course. He told the Noble Lord that there was not a college in the University of Cambridge which prescribed a mode of examination by which fel lowships were to be obtained, and if the University of its own accord chose to decide that fellowships should de pend on the tripos altogether, it was in their own breasts to make those the topics of examination, and to base the grunting of fellowships exclusively upon a knowledge of modern history or botany, instead of upon mathematics and classics, as they formerly depended.—(Hear.) But would the Commission have no evil effect? Did the Noble Lord suppose, when he chose five or six or seven Commissioners to go down to Cambridge with all the pomp and circumstance with which probably they would bo invested, that their arrival would not at once arrest all progress of improvem ent on the p art of those who had hitherto dedicated themselves to the work? Did he think it possible that those Commissioners could bring before them the heads of houses without interfering with the progress of what was there going on, without para lyzing the efforts of those who were now labouring in the cause he wished to advance, and without casting an im putation on their conduct and motives, fur that would inevitably be taken to be the meaning of such an inquiry. —(hear, hear.) He sincerely trusted that the Noble Lard would now, as his Government had done in 1836, reconsider the proposal he had just announced to the House. lie pretended not now to enter into a discus sion with the Noble Lord as to the best mode of edu cation to be pursued in the Universities of England; although he should be sorry, as far as his own feelings were concerned, that the minds of young men should be diverted from that attention to mathematical studies and classical literature which he believed to be the foundation of eminence in any future position in which a person might be placed.—(Rear.) And, though he was quite prepared to admit the advantage of having ex tended that circle of knowledge to the sciences, which were now to be placed on an equal footing with clas sical and mathematical knowledge, yet he did hope that they would not he pursued t, the extent of exterminating the other, and that the Commission would not go down imbued with a feeling in favour of those new studies which should eradicate all taste and affection for the old, on which he believed the future welfare and emi nence of individuals and the prosperity of the country mainly depended.—(Cheers.) lie did not stop to argue the legality of issuing the proposed Commission; but he said if the Noble Lord has objects in view which ap peared t, be deserving the attention of the University, that there would be no difficulty, without a Commission, of securing the concurrence of the University authorities. If, however, the Noble Lord should attempt by a vio lent exercise of authority to send down a Com m i ss ion, in itself of doubtful legality—which he and many great lawyers believed to be of settled illegality—(Hear)—he would involve himself and the body whom he sought to benefit in a course of contentious hostility, which would b 3 anything but favourable to the object he professel to hare in view. He should therefore content himself on the present occasion with earnestly expressing his hope that the Noble Lord would re-consider the decision he had expreseed to the House, and not place those learned bodies in the painful situation of coming into contact with the Crown, but would rather endeavour, by conci liatory approaches to them, and by profiting by their greater experience than his own in the mode and con duct of education, to facilitate the continuance of those improvements which had been by the.n spontaneously (From the Votes and Proceedings of flu , House of atrarnons. TUESDAY. APRIL 23. ENGLISH AND IRISH UNIVERSITIES. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That all systems of academical Education require from time to time some modification, from the change of external circumstances, the progress of opinion, and the intellectual improvement of the people : " That in the ancient English and Irish Universities, and in the Colleges connected with them, the interests of religi ous and useful learning have not advanced to an extent commensurate with the great resources and high position of those bodies; that collegiate statutes of the fifteenth century occasionally prohibit the local authorities from introducing any alterations into voluminous codes, of which a large por tion are now obsolete ; that better laws are needed to regu late the ceremony of matriculation and the granting of degrees; to diminish the exclusiveness of the University Libraries; to provide for a fairer distribution of the rewards of scientific and literary merit; to extend the permission of marriage to tutors of colleges ; and to facilitate the registra tion of electors for the Universities; that additional checks might be considered with reference to the continued extra vagance of individual students ; and that the mode of tenure of college property ought to be ameliorated, particularly in Ireland : " That as it is her Majesty's right and prerogative to name Visitors and Commissioners to inquire into the ancient Universities and Colleges of England and Ireland, an bumble Address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to issue her Royal Com mission of Inquiry into the state of the Universities and Colleges of Oxford, Cambridge, and Dublin, with a yiew to assist in the adaptation of those important institutions to the requirements of modern times :"—Dobate arising, Motion made, and Question put, " That the Debate be now ad ourned." The House divided: — MAJORITY—AYES, 273. Floyer, John Napier, Joseph Fordyce, A. D. Newdegate, N. Forster, M. Newport, Viscount Fortescue, Chichester Nugent, Lord Fox, W. J. O'Brien, Sir Lucius French, F. Ogle, S. C. Frewen, C. H. Oswald, Alexander Gaskell, J.M. Paget, Lord C. Gladstone, W. E. Pakington, Sir J. Goulburn, Henry Palmer, Robert Grace, 0. D. Palmerston, YiScOun Graham, Sir James Parker, John Greenall, Gilbert Pechell, Sir G. Greene, John Peel,;Sir Robert Greene, Thomas Peel, Colonel Grcnfell, Charles W. Peel, Frederick Grey, Sir George Perfect, R. Grey, Ralph W. Pigott, Francis Grogan, Edward Pilkington, JameS Grosvenor, Earl Pinney, William Hall, Sir Benjamin Plowden, W. 11. lialsey, T. P. Portal, Melville llamilton, G. A. Power, Dr. Hanmer,_Sir John Price, Sir It Hardcastle, J. A. Prime, Richard Harris, Captain Eawdon, Colonel Haste, Alexander Renton,;J. C. Haste, Archibald Repton, G. W. J. Ilatchell, John Ricardo, Osman llawes, B. Rice, E. R. _. Hayter, W. G. Richards, Richard Henley, J. W. Robartes, T. J. Herbert, Sidney Roebuck, J A. Hervey, Lord A. Romilly, Colonel Heywood, James Romilly, Sir John Ileyworth, Lawrence Russell, Lord John llildyard, R. C. Russell, F. C. H. Hill, Lord E. Sadleir,lJohn Hill, Lerd Marcus Saivrey, Colonel Ilobhouse, Sir John Sandars, George Hodgson, W. N. Scholerleld, William Hogg, Sir7,J. W. Scully, Francis Hollond, Robert Seymer, H. K. Hood, Sir A. Seymour, Lord Hope, Alexander Sheridan, R. B. llotham, Lord Sibthorp, Colonel Howard, C.W. Simeon, John lloward, P. 11. Slaney, Robert A. Hudson, George Smith, R. V. Hughes, W. B. Smith, M. Tucker Inglis, Sir R. H. Somerset, Captain Jermyn, Earl Somerville. Sir W. Jervis, Sir John Sotheron, T. Jocelyn, Viscount Stafford, Augustus Johnstone, Sir J. Stanford, J. F. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. Stanton, W. H. Jones, Captain Stuart, Lord D. Keating, Robert Stuart, Lord J. Keogh, William Stuart, 11. Sturt, Henry G. K ers haw, James Tenison, E. K. King, P. J. L a b o uchere, Henry Tennent, R. J. Law, C. E. Thicknesse, Ralph Lemon, Sir C. Thompson, Colonel Lennard, T. B. Thornely, T. Lennox, Lord A. Tollemache, F. J. Lewis, George C. Townley, R. G. Lindsay, Colonel Townshend, Captain Littleton, E. R. Trelawny, J. S. Locke, Joseph Trevor, 4.111. , Lopes, Sir Ralph Trollope, Sir J. Lowther, Colonel Tufnell IL Mackenzie, W. F. Turner , George Mackie, John Tyrell, Sir J. 11`Naghten, Sir E. Verner, Sir W. 11l Cullagh , W. T. Verney. Sir H. Mallon, O'Gorman Vyse, 11. Melon, Viscount Waddington, David Mangles, R. D. Waddington, H. S. Martin, Samuel Walpole, Spencer Masterman, John Walter, John Matheson, Colonel 'Wellesley, Lord C. Maule, Fox Willcox, Brodie Melgund, Viscount Williams, John Mitchell, T. A. Wilson, James Monsell, William Wilson, Matthew Morris, David Wortley, J. S. Mostyn, E. Wood, Sir Charles Mullings, J. R. WyTill, M. Mundy, William TELLERS. Munta, G. F. Palmer, Roundel Naas, Lord Cardwell, Edward Acland, Sir T. D. Adair, Hugh E. Adair, R. A. Alcock, Thomas Alexander, N. Anderson, Arthur Armstrong, R. B. Ashley, Lord Bailey, Joseph Baines, M. T. - Baring, H. B. Baring, Sir F.' Baring, Thomas Barnard, E. G. Bass, Thomas Bateson, T. Beckett, W. Bellew, R. M. Bennet, P. Beresford, William Berkeley, C. L. Bernard, Viscount Best, John Birch, Sir T. Blake, M. J. Biakemore, R. Booth, Sir R. G. Bouverie, E. F. Boyd, John Boyle, Colonel Bramston, T• W. Briseo, M. Brockman, E. D. Brooke, Lord Brother ton, J. Bulkeley, Sir R. B. Campbell, W. F. Carew, W. P. Carter, John B. Caulfeild, J. M. Cavendish, G. H. Cayley, Edward S. Chatterton, Colonel Chichester, Lord J. Childers, J. W. Cholmeley, Sir M. Christopher, R. Christy, Samuel Clay, James Clements, Charles Clifford, H. M. Cobbold, J. C. Cockburn, A. J. Cocks, T. S. Codrington, Sir W. Colebrooke, Sir T. Coles, 11. IL Colvile, C. R. Corry, 11. Cowper, W. F. Currie, Henry Curteis, 11. M. Dalrymple, Captain Davie, Sir.H. Dawson, T. V. Denison, J. E. D'Eyncourt, C. T. DO, J. W. D fainmond, Henry puff, George S. Duff, James Duncan, George DDEDpandas , bauu a u rsinni East, d n c 4r u a s orc ' IlDoe, C. . ni ! d J. Edwards, Henry Ellice, E., jun. Ellis, John Elliot, J. E. Estcourt, J. B. B. Evans, J. Evans, William Ewart, William Fagan, William Farrer, James Fergus, John Ferguson, Sir R. Ferguson, Sir 11. MINORITY-NOES. 31. Forbes, Wm. Forester, G. C. Fox, S. L. Galway, Viscount Gwyn, Howel Ilildyard, T. B. T. Lascelles, E Loveden,.Pryse Lygon, General M'raggart, Sir J. Miles, I'. W. S. Milner, W. M. Bagge, W. Baldock, E. H. Bankes, G. Bentinck, Lord H. Blackstone, W. Blair, Stephen Bromley, Robert Brown,,ll. Buck, Lewis W. Coke, E. K. Corbaily, M. E. Evelyn, W. J. Osborne, Ralph Rendlesham, Lord Smyth, John G. Stanley, Edward Talbot, C. /Z. Thompson, Add. Williamson, Sir IL Tom• Lawless, Cecil llobhouse, T. B• begun, end which. ho was sore, would be enwine ei by by the House without d,seussion. When the Commit- ITO THE SECRETARY OF THE those ec ho took the lead (at least in the University with ' tee had made their report he would state his own o i nniun BRADFORD REFORM ASSOCIATION. which he was connected) with every disposition t ) give on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Sir,—Oa Monday the 22nd, the debate was re effect to them to the fullest extent. He certainly had not Sir J. HOGG said t he course adopted by the Right newed on the Australian Colonies Bill. The question expected to have heard a proposition of this nature from Hon. Baronet was most fair and judicious. Like the was the namebrou brought the up, l o v f the merits of what is known by . a e e principle, which may be the Noble Lord on grounds so utterly unt mable; and Right Hon. Baronet, he should abstain from expressing he could not at all admit the similarity of the ease with his opinion on the subject until the Committee bad made defined the uniting of the two Scotch colleges. IF, indeed, the their report. as consisting in refusing to sell waste public Noble Lord intended to act upon that principle, and pro- Motion agreed to. land in the colonies at less than a certain price per posed to unite two or three colleges in a University in CHANCERY AND LUNACY FEES. acre (actually, I believe, twenty shillings) ; the pro order to diminish what the Noble Lord termed a " use - The SOLICITOR•GENERAL moved that the House ceeds to be applied to the expenses of carrying out less waste of power," he would call down upon himself go into Committee for the purpose of agreeing to a re- emigrants from this country. the deserved hostility of all who had any regard for the solution upon which to found a Bill to enable the Lord On this, it strikes me, a remark may be made, law, or who viewed the rights and wishes of founders as High Chancellor of England to authorise the collection w m i o th nd m ay o,r s e d o e f b a c t l e e . a r And that as i s , substantiated arhey two worth anything.—(Cheers.) He entirely differe d f ro m of fees p a y able in relation to proceedings in the Cou proceeding adapted possible objects, and two ways of consequently of imp Noble Lord's proposition of grant in g this Commis- Chancer y , and in lunacy, by means of stamps. It tine sion. lie to them respectively; and it is thought it would be more than useless — that considered that, b y the means of these stamps much it would be positively pernicious. — (C heers.) and trouble now expended in the collection of fees would portance, that they should be applied each in the promote emigration from thi s co u n try, then Mr. SCULLY, amidst boister o u s calls for a division, be saved. right place, and not each in the wrong. If the . there ma (under reservations) be reason i n ra i s ing a ob complained that the Noble Lord h ad not p romised to Mr. HENLEY said the public most justly expected, eat is to y send a Commission to inqu i re into the state of Trinit y that not only time and trouble would be saved, but that College, Dublin. The Roman Catholics of Ireland a considerable amount of the fees themselves, and of the formed the great majority of the p eo p le, and ought to expense of collecting them would be saved.—(Hear.) fund for that purpose by the sale of land. But hive a s h a re of the funds which were intended for the The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had no doubt that if the object is to promote the multiplicati o n education of the Irish. He should move an amendmeat the Bill, once in operation, would enable the Lord and growth of breeding people already there, then it to the proposition of the Noble Lord, or must request Chancellor to effect the object desired by the Honourable is as well settled as any point can be by experience, the lion. Member for North Lancashire not to with- Gentleman.—(Hear.) that the abundance of good waste land and the fa draw that portion of his motion which related to Trinity The House then went into Committee, and the resolu- culty of obtaining it at pleasure, are the grand instru- College. tion was agreed to. A Bill, founded on the resolution Mr. HEYWOOD said he looked upon the offer made was subsequently brought in and read a first time. manta for that multiplication of industrious human by the Noble Lord as so important that he should be SAVINGS FUND. beings, which must be attended with progress and quite willing to withdraw his motion.—(Cries of " No, On the motion of Mr. SLANEY, the following Gen circumstances as have public strength. To try the question,—under such no I" and " Divide.") He agreed that it was very im- men were appointed a Select Committee on savings of the been supposed, to wit the portant to have a Commission sent to Dublin, and should middle and working classes ;—Mr. Slaney, Mr. John previous existence of a race of settlers of domestic be happy to support a motion to that effect, but at pre- Abel Smith, Mr. Labouchere, Mr. Cardwell, Mr. a condition above habits and able t to the support themselves in sent he begged to withdraw his own motion. Greene, Mr. Ewart, Lord James Stuart, Mr. James wan by eof agriculture, Mr. R. PALMER said, the course which had been Garth Marshall, Mr. Wilson Patten, Lord Nugent, Mr. whys hould herete be any price on waste land at all? taken rendered it very important that more time should Stafford, Sir Robert Ferguson, Mr. Littleton, Mr. John should re not as soon be a bounty, for the man who by bard delving and digging had brought be given for the fall discussion of this que stion.— Ellis, and Mr. Frederick Peel. (" Hear," and " Divide.") The intentio n o f the Govern- - BOROUGH JUSTICES. the hi on greatest _.. abun obounty, in quantity short, into ment had not been announced till half - past ten o ' clock, Mr. MUNTZ obtained leave to bring in a Bill to tuponcertain successful st a t state o s f 01 r u e a c t l t a i n m g a 1. - and the previous course of the debate co uld not have authorise justices of any borough, having a separate The determination of the cases where one or - the other syste . m ought to be applied, may be a matter stir given an idea to those interested in the Universities of gaol, to commit assize prisoners to such gaol, and to ex assm the powers of anybody who is likely to take it the proposition which the Noble Lord was about to tend the jurisdiction of borough justices to all offences ,flake.—(E - Tear, hear.) That proposition involved ques- and matters arising within the borough for which P tions not only affecting education in the Universities of they act. in hand; but it does not follow that there are not the the greatest importance, but also legal que stions of the WOOD USED IN SHIPBUILDING. two classes of cases, and that it is not useful to be greatest importance; and on that account he deemed it Mr. MITCHELL moved that the House go into Com- aware of them. necessary that the ebate should not now close.—(Hear, mittee on this Bill; but, on being requested to postpone And even where an expense was to be involved in hear.) With regard to the Commission, he conceived it, asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what course the sending of emigrants to distant colonies, it does that it would be an illegal one. It appeared to he intended to pursue with reference to it when it should not follow too absolutely, that it ought not to be done contemplase the very thing which King James 11. had be proceeded with? but to the extent to which the expenses can be paid attempted. The resistance offered to tha t movement of The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be by the sale of land. Why does a father not refuse to King James by the college to which he belonged ex- had taken the utmost pains to obtain accurate informa- let his child learn to read, till in some way he sees his hibited their faithfulness to their statut es and laws,and tion on the subject, and finding that it would b e im p os- road to being reimbursed by the child's labour for he bad no doubt, if a similar visit ation were forced on Bible to provide security against frauds in allowi n g the the ex ease ? Clearl because he sees in his the Universities, contrary to t he law and their statutes, drawbacks proposed by the Hon. Gentleman, he was p y, t h a t it would at this day be met with a r esistance such compelled to say that he must oppose the Bill. He ad- child's learning a good by itself, a result which, f rom a s it me t with then, and on that ground he moved that milted that the timber duties were in a very unsatisfac- some connexion of things, he is willing t o secure the debate be now adjourned.—(Hear, hear.) tory state, and that his Hon. Friend had most fairly ap- without being paid for it. In the same way it would Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the House would not object plied his attention to the subject.—(Hear, hear.) appear there may be connexions of things in the case to an adjournment, for he quite admitted that when he Viscount JOCELYN hoped the Hon. Gentleman oc e om em m i u g n r i a t t y io t n o , g w o h t i o ch e ( x w pe it n h s i e n w l i i t m ho it u s) t d m em ay an i d n i n d g u c e t 13 a e rose the House had had no intimation o f his intention. would bring forward the Bill on the earliest possible day. —(Hear, hear.) lie thought the Hon. Gentleman was A gr e a t number of p arties were waiting for tbe result of instant pecuniary return. mistaken in thinking that it was not competent to the it, to decide whether they should send their ships to be On the same evening a regrettable conclusion took Crown to issue a Commission. Commissioners so ap- repaired in the Baltic or have them repaired at home. place in another direction. Theo ppular aspirations pointed might ask persons to go before them, and the The Noble Lord complained that the Chancellor of the of f a .. Chancellor of the Exchequer are necessarily persons so invited might, if they were willing, go. The Exchequer had not been courteous in replying to a ques fragile flowers, and least of all able to resist cold power of forcing persons to produce deeds was possibly tion he had that evening put to him on this very impor quite another question.—(A laugh.) tent subject. blasts from expected friends. The Chancellor of the Mr. LA.W threw out for the consideration of the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had in- Exchequer consequently cried peccavi, on his rashly Noble Lord, in the presence of the Hon. and Learned tended no discourtesy towards the Noble Viscount. All ventured theory some nights ago, that the rich ought the Attorney and Solicitor-Generals, whether 'it would he had said, when the Noble Lord asked him what be to pay taxes in proportion to their riches. He has not be placing the Crown in a predicament by forcing on intended to do in the matter, was that the question had conceded to the pressure made on him by nearly all a reluctant university and on colleges over which they bettor be asked when the Hon. Gentleman who had the Liberals in the House, that they ought to pay had no jurisdiction an inquiry against their will and charge of the Bill should bring it forward. less. If the wholesome principle, so rich in copse consent ? The Noble Lord had experienced the benefit Sir G. PECHELL regretted the decision to which the quences to the poor man, is withdrawn like the morn of proNe ling hand in hand with the heads of the Uni- Government had come upon this Bill. in g cloud, it is because the Liberal Members in the versities in effecting such reforms as were desirable; Mr. HUDSON hoped there would be as little delay as House would have it so. for they had been reformed hitherto, not by the juris- possible in proceeding with the measure. The announce diction of the Crown, but by the colleges themselves, in- ment of the Right Hon. Baronet would cause very great On Tuesday the night was given to a debate which yoking the aid of the Crown. What he should contend mortification to the shipping interest. may be attended with important consequences. The for wa s this, that, where there was a special visitor of a Mr. MITCHELL would p ost p one the Committee on motion was for an Address to the Crown to appoint a college, and th a t visitor had not failed in his duty, there the Bill till that day fortnight, and he hoped then to Commission of Inquiry into the state of the Uni was no jurisdiction in the Crown to issue a Commission assign reasons that would remove the objections of the versities and Colleges of Oxford, Cambridge, and f Inquiry against the will of the parties ;no power, if Right Hon. Baronet. Dublin. The Conservative benches broached the the Commission were issued, to enforce the attendance The Committee was postponed accordingly till that doctrine, of the incapacity of the Legislature to take of witnesses; and, further, no power to effort a change in day fortnight. cognizance of the proceedings of the Church or Uni the foundation.—(Hear, hear.) They might just as well The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the • versities ; which brought out a stark denial from attempt to change the foundation of every charity in House adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve. England.—(Hear, hear.) He contended that there was the other side. The Prime Minister finally rose , and no power without an Act of Parliament of doing that, PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. in the present motion, it was the a nnounced that, without asking tintention h of Ministers e House to agree and without that power the affair would be little more than a farce. to advise the Crown to appoint a C ommission Th e ATTORNEY-GENERAL would not have of Inquiry into the two Eng l i sh Universities. The desired to trouble the House with any observations had Conservatives spoke large words, and likened it to the by his Hon. and proceedings of James the Second ; forgetting that in it not been for the doubt thrown out Leerned Friend the Member for Plymouth (Mr. R. one case the popular feeling was against the Govern - Palmer), which seemed to be participated in by the ment and in the other with. The Gorham dispute is Recorder (Mr. Law). He (the Attorney-General) extending its boundaries ; and a quarrel which began begged the House to understand that it was from no about holy water, is leading to consequences as yet doubt entertained by his Noble Friend, or by those with unseen. whose concurrence he acted with regard to the legality of the proposed Commission, that he had assented to the adjournment of the debate. He believed that it pre ceded from a simple misconception of the nature and character of the proposed Commission that doubt was entertained of its legality by any one. If it had been an Executive Commission to enforce an inquiry, to insist upon the production of documents, to compel the exami nation of witnesses, to alter statutes and make regula tions, he concurred with those who thought it would be illegal, and that they could not attempt to assert any authority in such a case as the present, unless the Com mission were founded upon an Act of Parliament. — (Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord had not for a single moment suggested such a Commission of that nature. — (Hear, hear.) In reference to a remark made by his Hon. Friend opposite (Mr. R. Palmer) that there might be resistance to the production of evidence, his Noble Friend had merely said that in that case the Commission could not insist upon the information requested.—(Hear, hear.) If any Hon. Member really had a doubt of the legality of a Commission of the kind proposed, he would remind him of the precedents recently adopted by former Governments. What was the difference, for instance, between a Commission such as was now proposed for the purpose of examining willing witnesses , and docu • meats willingly produced, and that Commission issued by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tam worth to inquire into the constitution of the deans and chapters of England ?—(Hear, hear.) There was also the case of the Commission which inquired into the mu nicipal corporations of England and Wales. In each of these cases the object of the Commission was not to make regulations or enforce opinions, but to collect in formation from parties willing to afford it, with the view of inducing the Legislature to found upon that informa tion, if necessary, a future Act of Parliament.—(Hear, hoar.) Upon the information so collected on both these subjects, the Legislature were ultimately enabled to found valuable measures ; and it was with the same view—viz., to facilitate the improvements which were in progress in the Universities, that the Noble Lord had suggested the proposed Commission.—(Hear, hear, and cries of " Divide.") Mr. BEST maintained that the Universities of Ox ford and Cambridge had always had peculiar privileges, and while he had a seat in that House they should con tinue to have them.—(Laughter.) Yes, in spite of the opposition of Hon. Members on the Ministerial benches who belonged to all sects, all grades, all bodies, all—he knew not what to call them—religions, he should sup port the Universities through thick and thin.—(Laugh ter.) He should therefore oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for North Lancashire. Mr. HENLEY was afraid that the explanation of the Attorney-General would not be very consolatory to the Universities; for he begged the House to bear in mind what had followed the inquiries into the municipal cor porations, and deans and chapters, to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had referred—(Hear, hear) — because, if it was the intention of the Government to follow up this Commission in the same way as those pre vious Commissions had been followed up, the learned bodies connected with the colleges had better be careful what information they gave, seeing that the object of the Commission was likely to be, by a bland coun tenance and civil words, to fish . out of them the means of sending them to the right about when the information was obtained.—(Hear, hear.) It was very adroit of the Noble Lord to say that he would separate this inquiry from the question of the admission of Dissenters into the Universities. It was as much as to say, " give me the means of inserting the thin edge of the wedge, and I shall afterwards be able to achieve the object which Ido not now choose to avow."—(Hear, hear.) Colonel SIBTHORP, after thanking the Hon. Mem ber for Kidderminster (Mr. Best) for the manly course which he promised to pursue in that House, proceeded to say that the Noble Lord had on this occasiou adopted an evasive mode of proceeding similar to that which he (Colonel Sibthorp) had takes the liberty of characteriz ing in humble language on the previous night.—(Laugh ter.) The Noble Lord was going to issue another Com mission—paid or not he did not care. But he knew what the Commission would be; it would be self-created as all Government measures, and it would do no good to the Universities, whose interests the Noble Lord professed to have at heart.—(Hear, hear.) It was, as he had said of some others of their measures, a shuffle—another Ministerial trick.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped the House would divide and compel Hon. Members to declare them selves upon this subject. These were times in which they ought to know who were sincere and who were not. He had great respect for the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goul bourn) but he hoped he would forgive him for saying that if he and the Peelite section to which he belonged, had not supported the present Government, they would not now have had an opportunity of creating another dirty Commission.—(Laughter.) Mr. SCULLY, amidst loud cries of "divide," as k e d the Noble Lord at the bead of the Government, whether he intended to include Trinity College, Dublin, in the proposed measure? Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say, that he did not thinlc that Trinity College could be conveniently included. The House then divided on the question of the ad journment of the debate, when there appeared— Ayes ••• ••• ... ••• 273 Noes ••• •.. ... ... 31 Majority ... ... ... —242 The debate was then adjourned. SIR THOMAS TURTON'S DEFALCATIONS. Mr. ROEBUCK moved the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the defalcations occurring during the registrarship of Sir T. Turtou, Registrar cf the Supreme Court of Judicature at Bengal, end to re port the course which should be adopted in consequence of those defalcations. There could not be two opinions as to the claims of the sufferers to be indemnified by somebody or other.—(Hear, hear.) The Committee would ascertain who that somebody was by inquiring into the circumstances of the appointment of Sir T. Turton, the persons to whom he ought to have ac counted, and where the !aches had been. air J. HOBIIOUSE gave his cordial assent to the mo tion— (Hear, hear)—and he had no doubt, as on a si milar unhappy occasion in 1828, it would be agreed to I am, Sir, your obedient servant, AN OLD REFORMER. London, 24th April, 1850. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. BATH AND SOMERSET RACES—TuEsneY. The Lansdowne Trial Stakes of 15 sovs. each, 10 ft, and 50 added; three years old, 7st; four, Bst ?1b; five, 9st; six and acted, 9st 31b; mares, &c., allowed 3lbB. One mile. (14 Subs.) Mr. Rolt's Collingwood, aged (Flatman) 1 Mr. Jenkins's Miss Larkaway, 3 yrs (Byrne) 2 Captain Harvey's Strongbow, 4 yrs (A. Day) 3 Betting-7 to lon Collingwood. Won cleverly by a length. Run in 1 min. 59 secs. The Somersctshire Stakes of 25 SOTS. each, 15 ft, and 5 only if declared, with 100 sous. added; the second to receive 501., and the third to save his stake. Two miles and a distance. (50 Subs.,l27 of whom declared.) Mr. Drinkald's Sauter-la-Coupe, Est 61b (Rodney) 1 Duke of Richmond's Halo, 6 yrs, Sat 21b...(Flatman) 2 Mr. Davis's Chorister, 5 yrs, ist 31b...(T. Williams) 3 Captain Archdall's Wiudischgratz, sst 71b ...(Treen) 4 Sir J.B. Mill's Won't-you-come-out-to-night (Cowley) 5 Mr. Fowler's Seagull, 6 yrs, 6st 61b (Evans) 6 Mr. Cowley's Second Sight, 4 yrs, 'ist 21b (Dockeray) 7 Sir J. Hawley's Fernhill, 5 yrs, Sst 91b ...(A. Day) 8 Betting-7 to 4 agst Halo, 3to 1 agst Won't-you come-out-to-night, 5 to 1 agst Seagull, 10 to 1 agst Chorister, and 10 to 1 agst any other. Won easy by two lengths. Chorister a bad third. Halo broke down. Run in four minutes six seconds. Handicap Sweepstakes of 7 sous. each, 3 ft, and 25 added. One mile. (12 Subs., lof whom declared). Mr. T. King's Hasta, 4 yrs, 7st 71b (Goater) 1 Mr. E. Griffiths's Hagley, 5 yrs, Bst 71b ...(A. Day) 2 The following also ran: —Captain Crofton's Pell-mell, 6 yrs, Bst (Williams)—Lord Lurgan's Fugitive, aged, 7st 121b k (Whitehouse)—Lord W. Powlett's General Seidlitz, 3 yrs, 7st 10% (Dockeray)—Captain Harvey's Ranelagh, 3 yrs, ist 21b (Treen, jun.)—Mr. Goddard's o:b by Ratcatcher, 3 yrs, 7st (Rodney)—Mr. Roberts's Pride of Eden, 6 yrs, Tat (T. Byrne) — Mr. E. Fox's Taunton Dean, 3 yrs, 6st Blb (Ford)—Mr. Harris's Lady Day, 4 yrs, 6st 51b (Gilbert)—and Captain West's Da ndle, 4 yrs, 6st (Cowley). Sweepstakes of 10 sovs. each and 50 added. Heats, one mile and a half. (5 Subs.) Captain Pettat's Eagle's Plume... (Wakefield) 4 1 1 Mr. Saxby's Paquita, 4 yrs (W. Treen) 1 3 3 Mr. Parr's Mr. Mantle, 4 yrs (Williams) 24 2 Mr. A. Goddard's cby Ratcatcher (Rodney) 3 2 dr THE TEA TRADE, APRIL 22.—Last week ' s de liveries of tea in London were not quite so large as those np to the date of the 15th inst., but they were nevertheless rather full, being 694,1101 b. The market has been com paratively inactive. The merit of our actions consists not in doing ex traordinary actions, but in doing ordinary actions extraordi narily well. — Eliza Cook's Journal. [ADVERTISEMENT.] --THE EARL OF ALDBOROUGE Arm HouLowax's Prit.s.—An astounding cure by this miraculow medicine, arter every other means had failed. See extract from hiF Lordship's letter, dated " Villa Messina, Leghorn, Feb. 21 1845. Prc. fessor Holloway—Sir : I beg to acquaint you that your pills haveef fected a cure of a disorder in my liver and stomach which all the mos' eminent of the faculty, at home and all over the continent, had not been able to effect; nay, not even the waters of Carlsbad or Ma rienbad. (Signed) " ALDBOROUGII." These wonderful pills will cure any disease of the liver or stomach.—Sold (also Holloway's Cintment) at Professor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, And by all medicine vendors throughout the civilised world. COURT CIRCULAR. The Queen and Prince Albert, accompanied by the Princess Royal, the Princess Alice, and the Princess Helena, tcok a drive in an open carriage and four yesterday. The Equerries in Waiting, Lord Charles Fitzroy and Lieut.-Colonel Alexander Gordon, attended on horseback. His Royal Highness Prince Albert rode out on horseback yesterday morning, attended by Lieut.- Colonel F. H. Seymour. Their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales, Prince Alfred, and the Princess Louisa took their usual airings yesterday. Lieut... Colonel the Ho n . C. B. Phi pps h a d the honour of joining the royal dinner party at Bucking ham Palace yesterday evening. Her Majesty's private hand was in attendance in Buckingham Palace on Monday evening, and per formed the following pieces : Overture in D Selection, "Jean de Paris" Boieldieu. Fantasia, " Richard Cccur de Lion" Minuetto and Finale, Sinfonia, No. 1 Feldbleamlu Walzer The Marchioness cf Douro has relieved the Vis countess Canning in her duties as the Lady in Wai,i i g to her :Majesty Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent, ac companied by his Serene Highness Princ Edward of Saxe Weimar, honoured the F edora an - !e at her Majesty's Theatre last evening with her presence. Her Royal Highness was attended by L Jody Anna Maria Dawson and Sir George Couper. His Royal Highness the Duke of C =bridge honoured the Countess of Jersey with his compa n y on Monday evening in Berkeley-square. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, at tended by Major Stephens, honoured Mr. Burford's Panorama of the A rctic Regions with a visit yester day. Hi e Royal Highness paid a . visit on Monday to Queen Charlotte's Lying-in HoFpatal. The Committees on Manufactur es an d M ac hi ner y of the Exhitalon of 1851 had a meeting yesterday in the new P:dac? of Westminster. There were pre sent Mr. T. F. Gibson (Chairman of Manufactures), Sir J. Guest, Mr. Bazley, Mr. Apsley Pellatt, Mr. Redgrave, Mr. Townsend, M r . M orr i es Sti r li ng , Mr. J. 11. Vivian, M.P., Professor Cowper, Mr. H. Hope, Mr. Cubitt (Chairman of Machinery), the Earl of Rosse, and S_ir John Rennie. Mr. S. - Russell, Secre tary to the Royal Commission, attended. Colonel Reid (Chairman), and Messrs. Cole and Dilke, were present on the part of the Executive Committee of the Royal Commission. Mr. ltawlinson, C.E., had an interview with Earl Grey yesterday at the Colonial-office. Viscount Newry and Mr. Kinloch had an inter view with Earl Granville yesterday, at the office of the Railway Commission in the Board of Trade, on the subject of railway communication in the neigh bourhood of the town of Newry. Dispatches were received yesterday at the Colonial office from the Governors of New South Wales, Australia, New Ze , aland, the Mauritius, Hong Kong, Ceylon, and Malta. CITY OF LONDoN Uruori.—The board of guardians yesterday resolved to throw open their doors to the public press, during diseusiion. ~` i