The Sun. — London, England, 1851-03-18 00:00:00

Ti ---- a the the perity Was anadi ivies the ice, so crawl strik !celse- I ntries fe at° IOU%) which owing ;oust"' uia be w° pe g d god dod W e with Out, e dientr rau gL -uuder Ono r rell with )ut a 'the,' re tO P r°- ours° that in it I c rn3 '' ll t load to reailts whir+ tl•ev miato- have to , lonio - e. ' `', ilia , . a .te"tau . tr_ it, in this country, and if they pirsiste ut . the it, it would be looked upon as a declaration of war ?a tm people of Ireland.—( Hear. ) 44, - „ r :SEYMIAJR wished to state why he had come to the t tkti itlation of voting against the Government on this hta: ° „! l . He was aware of the almost superhuman efforts i s a R oman Ca' holies to sp ead their religion, not only in fi ti _ e °nntry hut throughout Europe. He drew some censo rs... 2" ifinn that fact, because he did not think any adequate lar had yet been taken to resist them. The present crisis to ra ft s t come upon him unexpectedly, for he had been told by ad been Catholic friends ten years ago that meetings °eai held in the priccipal cities of Europe for the con eag c m of this country. and for the establishment of someth i ." s ystem as that which it was now attempted to begin in sa pe ",untry. He was aware that in many quarters in Eu lattho'!ere had been a regular crusade of one class of Roman da m 'lea against Protestants. That class, he believed. con r!f those Roman Catholics who were in favour, of civil religions tyranny, and he believed, if they were victori hm_. tney would turn their arms against the Whig Ise', in the English Church. He should admi, IC: , that having seen a good deal of that party g ar ions portions of Europe, there were amongst kat ..many who would be as unscrupulous in their means— tlis''' despotic in the exercise of their spiritual power, as 4 - 4,rfere in the reign of Philip 11., the time of the Jesuits, fte.,_n the latter established themselves in Paraguay.— il o rri hear.) But what was it the House now proposed to the the was the course it intended pursuing , or wh at ettLe exigency to be met? Ha did not agree with th e it s "rare them, because it did that which it ought not to tnid it lef t other matters untouched to which it ought to k e Z attended.—(" Hear, hear," from the Roman Catholic •) He maintained that a bishop was not a terri- 1 1 / 41 title ; it was merely an office, as old as the Roma n ist o Om religion itself. The present question was one a l e distinct and, different from monastic establishments. rist:ere hear.) He therefore thought it would be a b a h o '•ion of civil and religious liberty to interfere with those N?, but at the same time considered that measures 111Q 512 t0 be taken to inquire into the management of those ItatiZto establishments. Everybody should deplore that lid, which for the last 200 years existed on the continent, to which a young female was either compel led to marr y 4 4 7' .. ka the v e il, an d through the means of which the higher 11 1 of society had become so debased and disorgan ised. a l / 4 "etild not have trespassed at all on the House, but he ts, i nxious briefly to state the reasons which induced him I al l _ t o against those with whoa he generally acted, and in 14;71;:r which might endanger his seat for the borough he ted.—( Hear, hear.) the Ii o GOULB URN said he was glad he-had given way to ki t U. Gentleman who had just addressed them , as he w as ati es tnat Hon. Member had shown that in any future vote tbt 'he might give ho would be influenced by the best gloat honourable motives. In much of what had fa llen Lit the Hon. Gentleman he (Mr. Goulburn) concurred ; § a . m it,should differ from him in ihe vote which he gave ik - C.`,riat occasion.—(Hear.) He thought the statement there was a general crusade gotten up to advance the Stof the Roman Catholic religion was not a very lig a „,ergument in favour of not passing a measure to arrest "‘ some restraint upon the temporal power claimed Pope in this country.— (Hear, hear.) The Hon. te gew r for Cork (Mr. Roche) had talked a good deal about Nt ila t ug the university privilege of printing the Book of h 7, l lPrayer ; but as it was, he (Mr Goulburn) found it t•T impossible to connect the greater part of the Ho n. tier's speech with the subject immediately under discus- Rear, hear.) He would not therefore endeavour to ,kg,t l lat Hon. Member, but would merely briefly state il a ntinds why ' he could not agree with the Hon. Member '`at the Bill then before the House. It was said the , , Bill was an invasion of the Act of 1829. With kiet legation he could not concur. If he regarded the pre klitai*'„lll as an invasion of that Act he would not give it his m l•••••-(Hear, hear.) He had been a party to the form -047 that compact between the Roman Catholic body tite People of this country, and he would neither d.e -on) its provisions, nor consent to its spirit being vio tikli",(llear, hear)—but he contended for it that that was ikt e rtion of that compact on the part of those who sup /iltseglithe provisions of that Bill. — ( Hear, hear.) The ill • • of the Hon. Member for Cork, he conceived, were kikttstilled, for it was not pretended now to increase the ilfre7 of Roman Catholic Bishops in Ireland, nor were a% aeby titles there prohibited which were not so under a et of BD. The Honourable Gentleman, therefore, /4144 acting fairly towards his Roman Catholic fellow (amen if he assumed that they would not support "" a iriPact of 1829.—(Hear, hear.) The act of t he Sta:n contended for it, was an aggressive act. The -''etas" Ca - holic Church endeavoured to extend its doc est 1, teaching; the Church of England did t he s a me . 6 'l' 'Ate' own part he had no objection to the contest, and no ga ht the reult—no dread of any aggression , as lon g a s iad a sufficiency of such teachers as they had for their , N l ray" - -(Hear, hear.) But he held the act of the Pope to li o 'let of civil aggression. It invaded the authority of littra°,wn by the appointment of civil titles, and it was an t v r; to invade the Protestant privileges of the country at eti h e le time. It was on these grounds that he objected tkah t l e t Of the Pope.—(Hear, hear.) If it had been found ~tot ; e ecclesiastical arrangements made in 9iis country Itetillusufficient for the management of their affturs, a th r 3 i might have bee i found without intr ducing a civil it. v o disturb the peace of the country and interfere with IN l a l government—(Hear, hear.) When was There a N. during which . a greater disposition had been shown N the past year, on the part of that House and kil e n trYe to give the Roman Catholics every possible a ? get and withdraw all disabilities inflicted by former aeration the only reward which they received for all that I „,; (11 ;4! ,, i0 . n was an invasion of the authority of the Crown, Ilhoes' a , fnagement of the Constitution. The appointment '% h ", bishops was not necessary to the exercise of the re -1 °f uf the Roman Catholics. If it were so, he for one pites ready to make great sacrifices to give them the full ,of episcopal superintendence.—( Hear.) He remem tr fie hearing every possible narrative of Roman Olio ances laid before that House up to the year Ittt t i Out though every possible grievance which could be as existing in this or any other country had been 4. 4, not a syllable had ever been uttered alleging that the ll apostolic of England were not amply sufficient for N, r eligions want which they then hall.—(Hear.) He Zk i srered even a rescript from the Pope at the time they Vss i rcussing, about the year 1812 or 1813, how ernancia. ke rs blight be safely granted, having issued. in w hich, tsa it ? affirming the system of bishops in Ireland , there was v thi s e 'n made only for the appointment of vicars-apostolic ,N tL erluntey. If therefore that measure had been unpro in 4 0 If it had been unnecessary for the eutablishment of 'A u t tlan Catholic religion, why had it been introduced? ' ; l , to tt ; 3 ',aaked, where was the evil in exchanging vicariates t a le ii, for dioceses? It might be quite immaterial indeed CPs t 7 e nlan Catholics, but it was most material indeed to iris Ail testant community.—(Hear, hear.) The vicars-apos ale ltiZ e ed, had jurisdiction, as his Hon. and Learned Friend fiber fo r Plymoth had told them, over personas omnes jle , w an all persons of their own persuasion. But would Fra k . %tended that the regular bishops would not exercise Oils 41 (4 'er those who were not Roman Catholics? The (L% deed, had told them in his bull that he had proceede d siN i t tl t - non sine magna viscerum comnzotione, indeed— talrs of ") those persons to superintend the e cclesiastical 1 ) , ) , , the Church ; but they would be found interfering in %il:raters also. I had been said that th Pope had no pig h 4) enforce the canon law in this county; but the s? might still have its effect without the interference aZio ti ly il power, as in the case, for instance, of excommu- Vtis,_ , l ' i . Was it not possible to make such a sentence a k t k o sonoyance, and inconvenience, and injury to those a at it had been applied?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. k - 4% ! th for Plymouth said if it was proposed to excommu ttNi e Queen, that he would at once interfere; but th e aN g e of the case was the same if the lowest subject s t Zgta e ' l l were subjected to such a proceeding. T his ap nt Of bishops, therefore, gave them a provi nce over pI A Wals in their diocese than Roman Catholics ; a nd as ok 4 .... i l.ot prepared to submit to the consequences of su ch l Isi4lso• The Gentleman who preceded him stated ob- I e s 'd 0 0 some parts of the Bill ; these objections, however , tll t 'v better discussed in Committee. But with respect fit. u t sanner in which that aggression had been met , he Oa o ° Pburn) confessed he did not approve of the whole tta"rt re Proceeding which had taken place. He thought that Crac t °neration on the part of the Government, and a less Ce iPI to aggravate the feelings of the country, would t a sti 14; 1 to a more calm and deliberate discussion than ti,N) 4 the consequence of the course pursued—(Hear, tk t ( 3: 1 21d he could not help considering that Ot aa 'crepancy between the Act introduced, and the Iqa -. en t caused by the Government would be likely to t to 7 prejudicial results.—(Hear, hear.) What was i i 7t ur i se left for them to pursue? Were they to reject tt % kil 1 1 or to adopt it? If they rejected it, what better ,tsaad they a prospect of of resisting the aggression, or eitt•al l t. t iF a specific declaration that the act of the Pope was 14% .1 0 h they should remonstrate against 2--(Hear, hear.) 41 1 41 e Pope acted under the influence of better advisers t , ; _ottld persevere. But he might if he pleased recall the , a N t ,,,niol he trusted, when the Roman Catholic feeling of 'k Vntry was consulted, it would be found advisable to do t i tOt t ;l l ) ere was no necessity to look for precedents . for such a , s `i k s tug. He recollected an instance of a bishop to a hum I. l%7 l :larch objected being charged by the Pope. And it b" 11 fly the other day that they saw the bishop appointed ,71 ,a withdrawn, and the vicar-apostolic re-appointed. „At sgerefore again , said, " Withdraw your bull; restore lit v icars-apostolic, and then all the restriction of see s told Bill become unnecessary,"— (Hear,. hear.) They ttvi the proposed measure was adverse to civil iNi. and that it was a persecution of the Ro man int o it s. The Honourable Member for Cork had told them Mip s ` the appointment of vicars-apostolic instead of M a ity . Re had talked a great deal about t oleration and 41. ti y' and yet he would sweep away the entire Irish Church CO L.. and all as a proof of his moderate and liberal °pi ety, (Rear, hear.) A distinguished lady h.-id said, " Oh, A lt Lander thy name many crimes are committed?" And c 4,1 block the sa m e way, he believed, with what was 6, ~a ` tigions as with civil liberty. In Ireland certain s ees t ilt tht!thlished in different districts, and bishops appointed ; Zit .a 4sw told them they should not assumo the titles of taN tx of and the present Bill was no more an act of op 014_ than the Act of 1829. But there was a sort of k l: te . 1 besides that of legislation. It was that which an .oua • 4, d Insolent priest inflicted upon a man of pious and Olt:2seanour, and who would submit to any injury and ql)o hit ,ther than make any complaint which would lead to itil ti e : Against such a man they often saw, in private t 4 -N 'Las inflicted which would bear the name of tyranny tifiroji tif rie should not, however, allow thb Pope to go on !f b , s l4o 4. l ng on our kind fee ings towards the Roman Catholic t ri Th th He held the act of the Pope to be an encroachment terse th e sovereign power of the Queen, the Protestant feel lit L a cOUlltry, and the Established Church, and there kett".ould vote in favour of the present Bill, which went thtir . 4 , - - ( Hear, hear.) 11,‘ h i, yr • BARRON expressed his apprehension that all S',,,ita t i' weeks' distracting discussion on the Papal bull i k; - k i ...• as little tended to useful legislation oat the question (4 / oti" a _Ecigworth's Essay on Irish Bulls" had tended to tes ned it ‘aa breed of cattle in the county of Galway. teiseh ; 9 On the contrary, it had done an immense deal kinglet It had raised up all the dormunt embers of kiitqle t ,:uscord in this country and in Ireland; it had torn P a l le a a L ese and ripped up old sores ; it had set man against lt` teta t me ra religious feuds had been settled down, though %Ole hi e extinguished, when men were beginning to think tneald'ilt,tters laid on the tomb for ever, Pahl that never tkcittle Catholic seen in our days a revival of the old disput-s \ Ekr e uestion or that that House should be made ti(4 na f ' ti l , No . i t) ecclesiastical censures or intolerant accusations.. - •,ue ll tea hear.) What kind of a church was it they had, if ii .. ;7 . t , ore(Lthe appointment of a single archbishop would t:t h a ti, th "a but the effect of the Pope's act would tvrch - mile the Queen, to annihilate the Established V hand take possession of all ecclesiastical temporali k!eatea:es truly absurd to send forth such stories for the itp, t ?erto, of old women as the renewal of Smithfield and 14: 1 pIt tx ,;t° 11 : 1 ew as the consequences of Dr. Wiseman's tiCe. thi„ ti t in this country. Now, when they talked of b.- isij -gs, did the think that all the horrors were on the ~ at ti? .. a ,„ ..,, 7 4r tit they near, ' from the Roman Catholic Members.) 41) heaa WWI to rake up the horrors of Henry VIII., the ti l the h"tb • urch ? ( their Ch (Dear.) Did they wish to rake li ihr_orrors perpetrated by Jahn Knox in Scotland, or A ` Ol l.l murders and burnings of Cromwell in Ireland? THE. SUN, —( Rear, belr.) Did they wish their reproent:qives to sent day, and met they were tit prototypes of Henry VIII., John Knox, and Cromwell?—(Hear.) There were two sides to all those cases of persecution—put them down not to the score of Catholic or Protestant, but to that of corrupt human nature. But it had been said that the appointment of a Reman Catholic hierarchy in this country was an insult to the British people. For his part, however, he could not un derstand how thot act could be regarded as au insult or an aggression; and he certainly felt convinced that it had never been meant for such a purpose. Within the last few years a Roman Catholic bish ip had been appointed in Ireland with out any offence to the Protestant party throughout the em sire; and surely an act which was perfectly harmless in Ireland afforded no just ground fur public indignation in England. Why, the Protestant party in this country ought, consistently with their own hatred of Papal ascendancy, to approve of an act which raised the Roman Catholic vicars apostolic into bishops, and by that means rendered them less dependent on the Pope. The Honourable Gentleman the Member for the Univesity of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn), had talked that evening of the debasement and misery which the profession of the Roman Catholie religion produced amon e nations. Now, in reply to that aspersion, he (Sir W. Barron) would confidently point to the history of the glories of Italy and the imperishable monuments of the genius of her children. He would point to the great men who had contri buted to raise France to her high pitch of prosperity and civilization. He would point, to to the distinguished men win) had illustrated the annals of England herself in former ages. The Act then under their consideration was a paltry, contemptible measure, good for nothing but insul . If it were passed into law its effects in Ireland would be peculiarly disastrous. There would be no civil war in con sequence in that country, but there would be distrust and hatred of English legislation. He would tell them that it would be an impotent law, and worse than impotent —it would be a disgrace to their statute-book. It would be an insult to the Church of the Irish people, and upon that point they were far more tenacious than they were of their lives or properties. It would do her Majesty's Ministers nozood, but would inflict a stain on their name and throw difficulties in the way of their party which centuries would not re move. He implored of them, therefore, to pause before they determined on persevering with so pernicious and insulting a measure. Mr. CALVERT (the new Member for Aylesbury) said that he had never entered upon the consideration of any sub-. ject which was, to his view, more pregnant with the most important consequences to all the great interests of the country than the measure now under discussion. The sup porters of the Bill were told that they were guilty of perse cution and of retrograde conduct with reference to the Emancipation Act of 1829. ;Sow, so far as persecution was concerned, no man could feel a deeper interest than he did in the welfare and progress of Ireland, and his feeling with regard to the Roman Catholics of England was that no body of persons were more loyal, or more deserved the attention and consideration of the Legislature. It was with a sincere anxiety, therefore, to do justice to the Roman Catholics on both sides of the channel that he now approached this subject. The Act of 129 was simply for the purpose of establishing civil privileges. It was t - tally unconnected with the subject under discussion; and, with the exception of one particular clause, there was not, from the commencement to the conclusion of it, any refer ence to matters of a spiritual character, and by that clause a penalty was laid upon those Roman Catholie bishop's who took the titles of then existing sees. It was said, however, that this did not prevent the assumption of titles of sees de rived from other places; but, up to the last four yeare, the parties who took such titles under a Papal brief were guilty of treason. Since that period the penalty had been taken away, but the offence remained. When the opponents of the Bill spoke of persecution, let him ask who were the parties who had compelled the Government to enter upon this course of legislation ? In the first place, he found a person coming to this country with authority from a foreign power, assert ing a spiritualjurisdiction over him (Mr. Calvert.)—(Cries of " Hear," and " No," from several Irish Members). He could prove to them " yes"— a spiritual jurisdiction over him. --(Cheers.) There was a man setting up a cardinal's throne in the neighbourhood of Lambeth, under the authority of a foreign potentate, and because he (Mr. Calvert) resisted the act, was he to be told that he was guilty of persecution ? Why, the charge was absurd, and inconsistent with the meaning of the language— and he contended that he was then standing in a position of self-defence, and was not amenable to any such charge. The question before the House was, whether or not it was exped ent that the present Bill should be read a second time? For 150 years, from 1710 to this time, the question had been decided in one uniform manner by the Legislature, every Act, beginning with the sth of Anne, chap. 8, sec. 10, having uniformly adopted a phrase which drew a distinction between the authority of a Ro man Catholic over, a congregation, and his authority over a place. The quEstson might also be viewed with reference to the general law of Europe; for, throughout the whole of Europe, wherever Roman Catholic bishops had been admitted at all , they had always been subject to some contr I—by placet or eaeguatur— which prevented them from exercising the same authority that they had in Rome. The most important effect of the recent act of ag gression by the Pope would be the introduction of the canon law. T introduce that, they were told there must be a regular series of archbishops and bishops in the country, the 'act being that unless there were arch bishops and bishops to introduce and give effect to it, that law could not take practical effect. Let the House see the result of that. Take the establishment of the new col leges in Ireland as an example. Suppose the Pope issued a brief condemning these colleges, and no episcopate existed in Ireland, it would then be a mere matter of conscience with every Roman Catholic to decide whether he would obey the brief or not; but if an episcopate were established, then, by virtue of the canon law, every individual Roman Catholic in the country must bend before the brief. Not a man could resist it. Liberty would be put an end to, and all must bow to the decision of the Pope. There had been much debating upon the subject of the Bill ; but had any Roman Catholic Member yet pointed out a single spiritual want of the Reiman Catholics which was not satisfied under the institution of vicars apostolic? He (Mr. Calvert) did not want to deprive the Roman Catholics of a single spiritual benefit; but he must say he believed the vicars apostolic were able to supply all the spiritual wants of that community in this country. The Hon. Member then remarked upon the insulting charac ter of the act of the Pope in issuing his brief without first consulting the wishes of the country and the Government, and in using the term " Catholic England" in his brief, when he knew that it was not "Catholic" but " Protestant" England; for if it were " Catholic England," why were not the Staarts upon the throne? (Cheers.) In point of fact the Pope in using that phrase was cenyeying an intimation that the present Sovereign ought not to be upon the throne. AnotSer reason why the present Bill was necessary was, the constant tendency of Rome to encroach upon the authority of the Crown, as might be seen on reference to Belgium, Sardinia, and other continental states. In the course of this debate it had been asserted that the Roman Catholic bishops were appointed in this country because they had been appointed in Ireland. Thus encroachment followed encroachment, and the only thing they gained by making a concession was that that concession was deelared to be a right, and the right was then taken as the groundwork for further encroachment. His Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Roundell Palmer) had referred to the Protestant Dissenting communities, and said that if they were allowed free action it must also be allowed to the woman Catholics. But let the House observe the difference. In the first place, there was no persuasion or body of persons in this country who, by any religious arrangement, questioned in any way the order or establishment of bishops, and no one in which the temporal power had not great weight over the spiritual. - (Cheers.) That was a most material matter. Let the conferences or assemblies of any of them be examined, and it would always be found that the temporal was above the spiritual ; whereas the essence of the system of the Roman Catholic Church was, that the temporal should not exist except in obedience to the spiritual; and in his (Mr. Cal vert's) opinion nothing should induce us'to consent that the temporal power should be subject altogether to the spiritual. --(Hear, hear.) In point of fact, the Pope of Rome was the supreme head of a vast army of bishops and priests scattered all over Europe, who must therefore be regarded with jealousy, and it should be remembered that every mem ber of the Methodist Conference, or of an assembly of Non conformist divine', was an Englishman, and that whatever else might be his object, that object could not be for the ad vantage of the stranger.—(Hear, hear.) How was it with regard to the Pope ? lie was non only Pope of Rome, but there might be other foreign powers who had influence over him.— (Hear, hear. ) At this meo: ent the French ba d p ossession of Rome, and he (Mr. Calvert) did not beli eve that they entertained sinister easilyfeel ingsebr:ltwhheicchohualdving possession of the imagine ano ther great Popedom, and with a bol d and scrupulous minister, who en conthtiinsecnotda country; t p r o y w ; en tertained hostile views towards the Constitution and the power of England, might use that influence for the purpose of inflicting immense damage upon w, and embarrassing an authority which it knew would be ever used for the purpose of promoting constitutional government It hal been stated that the present Bill was, after all, a small measure, and he thought it was so; but he did not think that, therefore, it was a measure which ought not to be passed. It might be necessary, however, to have recourse to further legislation : but even if that were so, he should not be sorry that they had thus afforded a locus penitentice, and given the Pope an op portunity to withdraw his brief, retrace his steps, and avoid the enormous evils which his conduct was calculated to pro duce.—(Cheers.) Mr. CHARTERIS said he had been much struck with the strange logic of the supporters of the Bill, and the inconsis tency between their arguments and their votes. They said, " We give our votes upon the ground of civil and religious liberty. We vote for complete toleration; and because we dread the establishment of a hierarchy in this country, and the ntroduction of the canon law, we vote for a Bill which touches not one of these points." Therefore, he was at a loss to understand how they could reconcile their speeches with their votes. From all that had occurred, both within and without the walls of Parliament, it appeared that the act of the Pope bad bees re garded solely in the light of a temporal aggression It was considered to be not an act for the better internal government of the Roman Catholic communion in this country, but an assumption of temporal power by the Sove reign of the Roman States. The,t was the view taken by her Majesty in the Speech from the Throne, by the Noble Lord in introducing the Bill, and by the Right Hon. Baronet in propoting the amended Bill, and they stated that there being no redress afforded by the statute law, they had come to Parliament for further powers. But if it were true that an insult had been offered to the Sovereign of the r ealm, it was not to Pa r l iament that the y should have had recourse for redress, but to the public law of Europe. The lion. and Learned Member for Oxford (Mr. P. Wood) had maintained that the sovereignty of the realm had been violated by this so-called Paeal aggression. The Hon. and Learned Member for Plymouth (Mr. R. Palmer), i n every word of whose able speech he (Mr. Charteris) fully agreed, was of opinion that the right in the matter was dependent not upon the Sovereign of the State, but on certain condi tions previously agreed upon—upon a concordat, fbr the es tablishment or partial establishment f the Roman Ca tholic Church in the tate. Thus it appeared doctors dif fered. Dr. Twiss stated there was no position in law so completely established with reference to the relations be tween the Pope and the Sovereigns of other States, as that the Royal placet or exesptatur of the Crown was previously necessary to the appointment of bishoprics in a country. That opinion was corroborated by the proceedings before the Committee ofq 815, where it was stated, by a German jurion that the Royal places was previously . necessary. He (Mr. Charteris) was inclined to concur in that opinion: He thought it would be found that that right had been exercised by Sovereign Princes before and since the RO's formation, and, if that were so, it was not to the House of Commons, but to the Foreign-office, they should look for, redress. But it was for them to consider whether it was not their own fault that they were now discussing this question—whether that spirit of intolerance which at tributed the famine in Ireland and the cholera to their having whitewashed the walls of Maynooth, was not at the bottom of the matter ; for he felt confident that had there been an English Minister at Rome they would not slow be discussing this question. He could not, however, bring himself to view the matter in the light of a temporal aggres sion. He considered it purely a ministerial question. The episcopal appointments by the Pope he regarded merely as LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 18, 1851. and anv other country? I❑ Roman Catholic countries, Itom in Catholic archbishops and bishops exercised powers not merely spiritual, their appointment proceeded from, or at least was rallied by, the temporal .Sovereign of the State. But, agaio, he found in the rescript this passage : " But in the sacred government of clergy and laity, and in all other things appertaining unto the pastoral office, tb , archbishops and bishops of England will henceforward en joy all the rights and faculties which the other Catholic archbishops and bishops of other nations, according to the common ordinances of the sacred canons and apostolic con stitutioss, use, and may use; and are equally bound by the obligations which bind the other archbishops. and bishops according to the same common discipline of the Catholic Church. And whatever regulations, either itt the ancient system of the Anglican churches or in the subsequent mis sionary state, may have been in force either by special c0,.- stitutions or privileges or peculiar customs, will now hence forth carry no right nor obligation ; and in order that no doubt may remain on this point, we, by the plenitude of our apostolic authority, repeal and abrogate all , power whatso ever of imposing obligation or confefring ,right , in those peculiar constitutions and privileges of whatever kind they may be, and in all customs, by whomsoever, or at whatever more ancient or immemorial time brougl4 in. Hence it will for the future be solely competent for the archbishop and bishops of England to distinguish whit things belong to the executions of the common ecclesi4tical law, and what, according to the common discipline of the church, is intrusted to the authority of the bishops." Was there not to be seen in that passage elidence of giving to the episcopacy power besides and beyontthat which was purely spiritual? There might, for exantele„be a Roman Catholic priest holding a certain chapel, and having the spiritual care of the Roman Catholics in fat district, and appointed to it before the new Roman Catholic bishops in this country had received their appointrients. Under the authority which the Pope gave such prieits might be sus pended—they might be excommunicated;' but, supposing a priest merely suspended, even that paw would be giving to the Roman Catholic hierarchy not onlia a spiritual, but an ecclesiastical and civil status with variess rights and pri vilege., of a temporal kind. If they attempted to deprive a priest of a cure of souls and a chapel wide temporal advan tages attached to it, he might appeal to the courts of law in this country to enable him to enforce hit rights. And the rights which Lord Mansfield held to beloreg to the Protestant Dissenters would then belong to Roman Catholic priests ; thus a court of law would be brought' into conflict with what was called the spiritual sutsdiction of the Church of Rome, for that epiritua jurisdiction was manifestly at variance with the law sf England. Now, he used this argument for the purpole of showing that so far as a Roman Catholic bishop exere:sed a spiritual juris diction, it was a quasi civil jurisdiction and something be yond a spiritual jurisdiction—a privilege which could not be given to any man but by the law of the land; such powers and privileges could only come from the authority of the - law or from the favour of the Sovereign. Then they were told that this being a Protestant country, 110, man Catholic eccle siastics would not submit to any authority excepting that of the Supreme Pontiff; but supposing Ce l t, were so conceded for the purpose of argument, and for that purpose only,— suppose that this country was hound to give them all that I was desired, it did not follow that hecau.se the law of this country did not allow a case such as lee had been supposing, , the law of Rome would not permit it He begged to refer the House for a moment to what othee s Protestant States of Europe had done. In those the Popeeonceded the question of the appointment of a bishop to a v ey, great extent; and it appeared to him, that in the recen y-altered state of the , law of this country negotiations migh have been opened be tween England and the See of Rome tot the purpose of placing us on the same footing as other Protetant States of Europe. As the law now now stood on our stttute-book that might he done.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask was there anything to prevent the Sovereign of this: country establishing dipl o matic relations with the Pope, riasmuch as an Act had already been passed for that purpose 21 If the Roman Catho lics wanted to have any important thanges made, why did they not come to Parliament for that , purpose? If they sought legitimate objects, they shouie pursue them by legal and constitutional means, and not t hy what was called an insult, though he would not apply to it that term, because he did not think that any insult wasintemZed ; but what he maintained was that they had no rig 4 to any civil or tern poral jurisdiction; and he did net now inquire whether that was their object or not; hit rather regarded the , tendency and probable effect of thee. proceedings. He did . not care whether it was intende d or not. He looked to I the result, and he found that. whatever the intention, the result had been the evasion of the privileges and prerogatives' of the Sovereign, and an invasion off_ the liberties of a free and independen ' t kingdom. The vicars-apostolic had no enforce the canon law. sees, no dioceses, and no authority t' j They had nothing but the s itu p jurisdiction over th e 3 members of their own faith. It Ted said that the Roman Catholic religion absolutely required the establishment of a regularly constituted hierarchy. Bat no one had established this position. The Earl of Arundsi, and Sun ey had indeed said that certain irregularities .whiff . had taken place ren dered the appointment of the new bishops necessary. How far the Noble Earl had stated this of his own knowledge be did not kuow. But according to the, experience of us all, the life and conduct of the Romanatholic clergy had been ) exemplary in the extreme—(Chee—and no one had heard of irregularities on their part.—( .ar. ) Dr. Wiseman let the truth out. He said the Cs ' ol.cs required a regular bierarchy because they wanted to introduce the canon law, and they could not do that as long is they had vicars-apos tolic. Dr. Wiseman said nothing of the discipline of the Church.—(Hear.) Now, had the Roman Catholic religion declined under the government of vi ca rs-apostolic? The Papal brief recited, on the contrary, that the members of the faithful were daily increasing, ; and that the Church in England was in a most prosperous condition. It was clear that what was wanted was the canon law and synodical action.—(Cheers.) Did any one desire to see archbishops and bishops looking to R ,me as tae fountain of jurisdiction, aid, sitting side by side with the Imperial Parliament, provincial synods appointed by the see of Rome? lie did not. We had seen enough of that in the sister country. He could not forget the Synod of Ihurles—(Cheers)—or the way in which that synod of ecclesiastics had set itself in opposition to the enactments, of this and the other Hous of Parliament. The large sums toted for the establishment of colleges in Ireland had been received with universal satis faction by the gentlemen and laity of Ireland.—(No, no, and cheers.) But it happened that the see of Rome had sent to Ireland, and placed in the great archbishopric of Ar magh an ecclesiastic who, though an Irishman by name , was really an Italian monk. Dr. Cullen was sent to Ireland by the Pope to prevent the estabishment of these colleges. Mr. MAURICE O'CONNE-I L—Dr. Crolly was arch bishop when the Act was passed for establishing these col leges. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL believed Dr. Crolly was an assenting party to the passing of the Act.—(Cheers.) But he unfortunately died, and war succeeded by Dr. Cullen, who, though an Irishman by n ine's, - was to all intents and purposes an Italian monk. In difiance of the usages of the Irish Roman Catholic Church Dr. C u ll e n was elected. (Oh, oh, and cheers.) The established usage was that the clergy should send three names ti e the election of the Pope. They Rome upon a vacancy for e Were also in the habit of writing against one name the other dignior, and against the Word diqnus, against the third dignissimus, which :'last was usually appointed by the Pope. The Irish clergy 'sent those three names, but thl Pope passed by them all, and, violating the established image and p rac tice of the Church, sent Dr. Cullen to IrelanA as Archbishop of Armagh. —(Cheers.) Dr. Cullen had never exercised pastoral juris diction in Ireland before. H summoned the synod of Thurles, and, by his casting vote S , decided that the Roman Catholics should not adopt the colleges which were being established under the provisioni of the Act of Parliament. Now, was that interference spiritual or ecclesiastical? Did the people of this country desire to see a synod of this de scription sitting in England? Let the House observe that in our Church we did not permit, the action of convocation, although it was subject to the control of the Crown. It was summoned and presided over by an authority on the part of the Crown, who had the power to prorogue or to dissolve it , and in so far as it was composed of bishops and other digni taries, appointed by the Crown, a considerable control was exercised by the Crown over its proceedings. But a synod of Roman Catholic bishops in this country would be com posed of persons over whom th e control, and it would exercise Crown would have no e po wer, jurisdiction, and au thority in competition, and perhaps in conflict with the Imperial Legislature.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") If we looked abroad did we find these powers and prerogatives ex ercised with forbearance ? Look at B e l g i um , where the clergy and the State were in conflict upon more subjects than one—on education among the rest. It was complained in Belgium that education had been frustrated by the oppo sition of the clergy, emanating from t h e Court of Rome. In Sardinia the clergy had made the most immoderate and pre posterous pretensions. They had claimed immunity from the operation of the civil laws, and the Archbishop of Turin had refused one of the Ministers the sacraments until he had expressed his deep repentance for the attempt to make eccle siastics amenable to the civil laws. Roman Catholics could not deny, and ecclesiastical history proved the truth of the asser tion, that the priesthood — not of the working clergy, but of the higher order of the Hierarchy _was one of en croachment and aggression. What was the intention of this Bill ? If he turned to the Papal rescript, he found the fol., lowing passage : t. Wherefore. after diligently weighink ; the state of Catho licity in England at the time that n ow is, and after reflect ing upon the increase which, in various places, is manifest in the already large number of Catholics, and after considering how the hindrances which stood in the way of the spreading of the Catholic faith are dail y bein g removed, we have judged that the time has come in which the form of eccle siasticalin England, which f r eely prevails in oth er countries w here no special cause of the vi cars - aros t o li e . government may h e r e stored efelt tha t re u f i o r r e m s i n t g h e t h e x i s t ra j o u r d d g i n m a e r n y t ministry ic the circumstances of times and things had rendered the government of the Catholics of England by vicars-apostoli c no longer neces sary, and, indeed, that such a change had taken place that called for the establishment of the ordinary form of episcopal rule in that kingdom." These ware to him ominous words. The times aid cir cumstances chosen for this act were remarkable. There was a schism in the Established Church of this country.— ( Hear, hear.) Multitudes, deluded by mediaeval tendencies, and by a fondness for the picturesque in religion—(A laugh)— were passing over to that which, if_ not the Roma n C a th o lic religion, was something uncommonly like it. It was thought the time had come when a g reat blow might be struck— when the contest might be renewed for the prerogatives, power, advantages, and emoluments of the Church. It was, therefore, incumbent on the House to be watchful and wary. Whatever was essential to the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion, let it be granted, not as a matter of favour, but of right. But, on the other hand, let them be careful to allow of no evasion or encroachment upon the law or the Constitution. lie could not agree with the Hon. and Learned Member opposite that Par iament ought to wait, and not to act until the evil became intolerable.--(Hear, hear.) He said let them take their stand upon the law and Constitu tion in the first instance. For in every instance where an invasion or infraction had once been admitted, it was set up as a precedent. It was said that the Legislature had per mitted the evasion and infraction of the law in Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) Ireland was undoubtedly an exceptional case. I.lear, hear, from the Irish Me mbers. ) It had a Roman Catholic population and an established Church which would not minister to that population.—(Cheers.) It had Roman Catholic bishops there, by whom the law had been tacitly evaded. But was there no difference between the manner in which the law had been evaded in Ireland and evaded in England? Had there been a cardinal sent to Ireland in flam ing attire and wearing the cardinalitial hat to proclaim'the hulls of the Pope? Yet, because the Government had-al lowed the law to be evaded in Ireland, this was put forward as a reason why no notice should betaken of the evasion of the law in England. He deeply regretted the necessity of includ ing Ireland in this measure. But the state of things had changed there since the Pope had sent over an ecclesiastic to govern the country who hid not been nominat. d by the clergy. What was to hinder him sending over foreign ec clesiastics to this country who did not profess to be bound by our laws, but by th e ca non law? He had heard it said that this question ought to have been settled through the inter vent.on of the Foreign-office, and that the Noble Lord (Palmerston) ought to have sent a fleet and an armed farce to Civita Vecchia. Suppose the question had been treated in this manner, and that a fleet had bombarded that an arrangement for the better organization of the Roman •• " ' deal with it, if they meant to preserve religious liberty and toleration. What right had they to deny to the Roman Ca holies that organization for their Church government ac cording to laws of their own communion, which they granted to every other religious community? Was not epis copacy a part of ecclesiastical government ? Nay, was not the!' episcopacy of the Church of England derived from them ? The reason assigned was, the danger that might ensue from the establishment of a Ro man Catholic hierarchy. He saw no danger on the subject. If the canon law came into collision with the law of the land, the canon law must bow before it. If they found the canon law made superior to the civil and statute law, then let them interfere by legislation and vindicate the supremacy of the law, and he woud give them his support. The Roman Catholics of this country themselves denied the temporal supremacy of the Pope, an l they swore in their oath at that table that the Pope neither had nor ought to have any civil jurisdiction within these realms, and further, that they would not distil' b the settlement of property as established by law within the realm, and that they swore in the terms of the oath, without mental reservation er equi vocation. Why then should they impugn the loyalty of the Roman Catholics? He was indignant when he heard their loyalty questioned. They had proved their loyalty in a hundred fights by flood and field, and in every clime. To whom was the suppression of the Irish rebellion Cue bat to the priests and to the police. The Roman Catholics were as loyal to the Constitution and the Crown as the Pro-, testauts, and he believed there was in the Roman Catho lic Anglo-Saxons, as well as in the Protestants, the same spirit of independence which would not suffer them to bow down to any foreign potentate. He was opposed to all legislation, because he believed their civil rights and liberties were in no danger. He looked not to penal enact trlents, but to the spread of education and enlighten ment and the exertions of their clergy for the pre servation of their faith. A. distinguished statesman (Mr. Wyndham) had said that if conversion to Popery was au evil, the law was not the proper remedy, and that prosely tisp was a disgrace only to the clergymen in whose parish it l occurred. When Hon. Gentlemen threatened them with the chance of another Spanish Armada or French invasion, he asked was not the period of the Armada one when the bloody penal code disgraced the statute-book, when the scaffold reeked with blood; and when the French invader last trod the soil of this realm, was not the same penal code still in force? They had little encouragement, then, in the past to have recourse to penal enactments. They ought not, however, to pass by the arrogant tone of the Popish brief; they should pass a resolution marking their disapprobation of it, but they ought at the same time to do away with the absurdity of ignoring the Pope as a temporal Sovereign ; they should establish diplomatic relations with his court; they should reverse the statutes of mortmain, and guard against abuses by passing measures for the inspection of monasteries. This would be better than passing an Act which would be a dead letter in operation. Although the feeling of the country was aroused on the subject he was certain the people would soon be convinced of the impolicy of encumbering the statute-book with inoperative laws. For if they would make their legislation effective, they must re enact the penal laws, but in that case they must interfere with the free exercise of their religion by the Roman Ca tholics, and thus violate the sound principles of religious toleration. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, the pith and substance of the arguments advanced by those who took what he would call the Roman Catholic view of the question was this :—that the establishment of a hierarchy was essential to tl.eir religion— that therefore they were entitled to have it —that they could obtain it only from the Roman Pontiff — that therefore they were justified in having recourse to the Pope to obtain it—and that the Pope was entitled to grant it, and do all that was necessary for the purpose of establish ing it. From those premises the Roman Catholics drew an egregious fallacy ; but before proceeding to deal with that he would state the substance of the arguments used by mem bers of the Protestant communion, who were opposed to legislation on this subject. The substance of their argu ment was this :—that the Legislature had conceded to the Roman Catholics the free and unfettered exert se of their re ligion—that the establishment of a hierarchy was essential to the free and unfettered exercise of their religion—and that therefore we were bound to permit the establishment of their hierarchy. Was it possible for any one to reflect for a moment, and not see the fallacy which pervaded that ar gument? It did not follow that, because the thing desired might be reasonable and just, the means taken to accomplish it must necessarily be valid. He would assume, for the pur pose of argument (and he pledged himself to give battle to all the argument4which had been advanced by the opponents of the Bill, an& he believed he would be able to defeat them), that an organized hierarchy was essential to the interests of the Roman Catholic religion, and that the see of Rome was the only quarter whence it could be obtained ; but if the means adopted to establish the hierarchy were illegal and unconstitutional—if they involved a violation of our municipal and constitutional laws if they were a violation of the public law of Europe if they were an invasion of the sovereignty of the state—if they were an outrage of the national independence—w ss it to be said that the Government and Parliament of the country, whose bounden duty it was to preserve the sovereignty of these realms inviolate, to protect the national independence and maintain the national honour untarnished, were to sub mit to the adoption of those means because soma persons thought the Roman Catholic Church would be better go verned by archbishops and b shops than by vicars-apostolic? ' He for r ne would never concede so monstrous and untenable a proposition.—(Hear, hear.) He wanted an answer to this question, had the Roman Pontiff, in partitioning the realm ' of England into provinces and dioceses, and establishing therein archbishops and bishops, and an organized hierarchy for the government thereof, invaded the prerogative of the Crown and outraged the independence of the country, and had those subjects of her Majesty who had lent them -elves to carrying out this scheme, stood by it, and abetted it, departed from the undivided allegiance which they owed their Sovereign, violated the law of the land, and infringed the - spirit of the Constitution ?—(No, no, and hear, hear.) He hoped that Honourable Members would be kind enough to listen to his arguments instead of interrupting him with unseemly jeers. There had been abundance or de clamation and invective, the promoters of the Bill had been reproached with intolerance and persecution, and, indeed, if it had been the object of the measure to re-enact the penal laws, and suppress the Roman Catholic religion altogether, it could not have been more vehemently condemned; but he now called upon the opponents of the Bill to meet him fairly in argument, and he respectfully though fearlessly challenged an answer to the question —were the proceedings of the See of Rome, and of those who abetted him, consistent with the law of this country, and with the law of nations ? There was another question he would ask—when the Roman Catholic religion was the established religi n of this country, and when, therefore, the people owed, and paid obedience to the Pope of Rome, in spiritual matters, as the head of the , r hurch,would the Pope then have taken on himself to do as lie had now done? To that question he would himself answer in the most unhesitating and unqualified manner " no ;" and no man would be bold enough to stand up in the House or else where, and assert the affirmative. From the earliest periods of our his ory the Pope had never exerfrsed jurisdiCtiOn in. tUie, country with respect to the appoint , of biAeopse; : ittetbe.. time of the Saxoas the power of dive rig• thee•deuieWlifft4" dioceses was vested exclusively in the- King. • Edward. the Confessor, finding the two bishops existing in his reign in sufficient for the spiritual wants of ihe people, created three more, without • the authority of the Pope. This was the course always.pursued in the earlier part of our history, nor was it until the time of Henry I. that the slightest attempt es; s as made on the part of the see of Rome to encroach on the Oyer of the English Crown with respect to the appoint ment of Bishops. They were elected by the clergy and con firmed by the Crown. An able pamphlet, written by Mr. Edward James, of the Chancery bar, pointed out very clearly the course of legislation which had been adopted for the ex press purpose of l'ealating the pretensions advanced by the Pope, from time to time, to interfere with the prerogative 'of the Crown in thiacountry. Lliere the Hon. and Lea-ned Gentleman read an extract from the pamphlet in question.] The state of things to which he had referred was not peculiar to England alone. On the contrary, the practice ire every Roman Catholic country in Europe before the Re formation, and it had continued almost down to the pre sent moment, was that no bishop could b e appointed except by the Sovereign or by the Pepe with the assent and concurrence of the Sovereign.—(Hear, hear.) It was incontestably established by the evidence given before the Committee which sat in 1816 that the most pre eminently Roman Catholic countries in Europe, Austria, Spain, and F rance, would not permit the bulls of the Pope to ve r circulate o i c in t h ti o l se the c y o u h n a tr d i e r s e . ce iivtedwatsh the e s a s n a c n t l i e o n i n o n h g e i G a nod when the Roman Catholic religion was established here, and in the reign of Edward I. a man was sentenced to death for introducing a Papal bull into England, and the sentence was remitted only at the entreaty of the Chancellor and "1 reasurer. It appeared to him, thee, that he had clearly established the point, that the see of Rome had no right to create dioceses in England without the consent of the State; and if the Pope had not that power, when the Ro man Catholic religion was the religi , n of the country, whence did he derive the power of doing so now? The argument of the Roman Catholics respecting the inter ference of temporal sove re i gns i n the appointment of arch bishops and bishops was that the only reason why the rati fication of the Sovereign could be thought necessary was this, that in Roman Catholic times and in Roman Cabo- lie countries bishops and archbishops possessed great tem poralities, and exercised power, authority, and jurisdic tion. Ile clearly saw the distinction, and he agreed with those who held that a bishop might b© appointed for purely spiritual purposes, for consecration, for ordination, for con firmation, for administering the sacraments of the church ; and, if the Papal rescript had been confined to objects 1i ng was s whatever o s f ora th e e t i h n pi something in of purely spiritual jurisdiction, h o s h ou ld b e o bliged towbthl ticthie admitier male was sh n t .e there ot proceedingl analogous to what had been done with r egar d to sen di ng a was nothing Protestant bishop to Jerusalem , there to ex orc i se s pi r it u al jurisdiction over the subjects of her Majesty, or o th er Pro testants residing in that city. The P ro t es t ant bi s h op at' Jerusalem was there without a see, without a diocese, and wo uld any one tell him that the Pope and the Roman Ca tholic clergy and laity meant no more than that with refe eitnihner thee this argument;ca s at a l niece to this country ? Did they not, on the contrary, find that the Roman Catholics sought to establish a hierarchy in this realm of England with a view to temporal sovereignty? --(No, no.) When he turned to the rescript of the Pope on this point he found, from the authorized translation of that document issued by Cardinal Wiseman himself that the Pope directed the erection of two sees to be presided over by Dr. Wiseman, and those were Westminster and Southwark ; that of the northern district, there was to be one see at Hex. ham ; that for the see of 1 orke he provided that the seat of the bishop should be at the city of Beverley; that of two o thers, one should be at the city of Salford, and the other at the city of Northampton. By what authority did th e P o pe erect cities within the United Kingdom ? Was not that an act of territorial sovereignty? If any town or place . was appointed to be an episcopal s ee it became apso facto a city. All towns wore raised to the rank of cities by becoming the seats of bishops—did any one deny that ?—(Hear, hear.) They would find that every . s ty derived its rank from being now or having been in times pas t the seat of a bishop, and so in herent was this privilege or distinction that, though the bishopric might be dissolved , t he title of the city remained; for instance, W es tminster —there the bishopric was dissolved, but the title of city remained. Surely, then, when the Pope raised, or rather attempted to raise, English towns to the rank of cities, he must have mean t that civil consequences were to ensue • c i v il consequences necessari l y attached to !such acts, and ' he did not see how any one could successfully contend that such steps did not involve territorial jurisdic tion. and sovereignty. It was said that t he Pope did not in tend to assume territorial jurisdiction ; that he merely in tended to invest his bishops and clergy with a purely spi ritual character; but what did he find to be the words of the rescript? They were these—" And in the spiritual govern ment of the cle rg y an d p e ople, and in all matters appertain ing to the pastoral office, the archbishops and bishops of nigland shall henc e f orw a r d enjoy all the rights and privileges Iwhich the Catholic arubishops and bishops in other states 'have and use,, according to the common ordinances of the sacred canons and apostolic constitutions." He desired to know, was there, in that respect, any difference between this port. Why, what an outcry would not then have been made ! Hon. Gentl,men would have said, " Look at this monstrous tyranny of the strong against the weak !" They would have been told that it was unworthy of a great kingdom to crush an old man whose temporal power as a prince was of the lowest possible order. Such a course would have covered the country with ridicule beyond any thing that could be conceived. Why, it was not worth while for a great country like this to enter into hostilit.es with the Pontiff for acts like these, or for anything he could do. We had the remedy against his attacks in our own hands. We could deal with our own subjects, Protestant or Roman Catholic, without recourse to any measure beyond our shores.—( Hear, hear.) And if those subjects assumed territorial titles which by law they were not competent to take, it was for the State to prevent the perpetration of offences it never entered into the contemplation of the Le gislature that they would have committed.—(Cheers.) It was nothing to say the measure was small to meet evils of such magnitude. It would, at all events, be- sufficient to prevent the realization of Pontifical and hierarchical en croachments. They could not have episcopal jurisdiction, they could not introduce canon law, they could not assemble in synod t 3 frustrate. perchance, the decrees of the Imperial Parliament, unless there were bishops with territorial titles and that the Bill effectually prOhibited. In a word, it would meet the aggression which had been made upon us, and would protect the rights and vindicate the liberties of this country so far as they had been assailed, and would provide for the independence of this free and ancient kingdom.—(Cheers.) Mr CARDWELL said he had witnessed the rising of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor-General) with great pleasure, as he expected from one of the law-officers of the Crown a clear and full explanation of tha measure under discussion. In that hope he had been disappointed. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had told the House that the municipal and the national law had been alike violated, that the honour of the country had been attacked, and the rights of our Sovereign aggrieved. He asked the Honour able and Learned Gentleman where had her Majesty's Go vernment been all the time?—Cheers.) Did the Honour able and Learned Gentleman mean to say the municipal law had been disregarded, the internaional law scandalously in fringed, a territorial invasion perpetrated, that a foreign Prince, and the representatives of a foreign Court, were governing her Majesty's subjects with temporal jurisdiction, and that the Executive Government had all the time made no sign, and had not even remonstrated with that foreign Power ?—(Hear, hear.) Did he affirm that acts of treason had been committed within this realm, and the law officers of the Crown took no steps fir the vindication of the Sovereign ? But, above all, did he mean to say Government now relied on the Bill before them for the vindication of the wrongs that had been done?—(Hear, hear.) He would now invite the House to the consideration of the Bill, which the House had, no doubt, observed the Hon. and Learned entleman had entirely omitted to speak about. He said there were two classes who opposed the :Bill—the Roman Catholic party, who demanded, and thought they had a right to the hierarchy, and those Protestants who treated the menaces of the Papal power with indifference. But he for- got there might be Protestants who regarded the act of the Pope with feelings akin to his own, but who, nevertheless, could not give their sanction to the proposed measure. In the course of his speech he had ingeniously endeavoured to show that the bishops nominated by the Pope had not only spiritual but temporal power, that they were about to introduce canon law, which should stand side by side with Acts of the Imperial Parliament, and that they had in vaded the prerogative of the Crown ; but he would ask the Ron. and Learned Gedtlemaa if the Bill was a measure by which he proposed to prevent all that? To his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects he (Mr. Cardwell) declared that he regarded what had been done as an aggression on the rights of his country, the more serious because unpro voked. In the course of that debate he had heard doc trinces laid down respecting the nature of civil and reli gious liberty which were not consonant with those the people of England had been accustomed to regard as their true meaning or as sanctioned by'the law, and he could not for get that such doctrines were not those of Locke, and of Blackstone, and of Lord Somers, and could not but regard them as fatal to all duties and obligations of the social state. It was surely the right of every man to worsh'p his Creator according to the dictates of his consoience, but the rights of a Church, as an ecclesiastical body, must be bound by the law of the civil government of the State, and the exercise of its power must be confined by the safety and convenience of the State. Why did they close the con vocation of the Established Church and carry her appeals to the Privy Council? Why did they maintain the supremacy of the Queen, and the control of Parliament, but that no danger might arise to the State?—(Hear, hear.) An allusion had been made to the United States in the course of the debate, but he would ask was there any throne there to which the successor had been changed on account of his religion—had they a Bill of Rights, an Act of Settlement, a coronation oath. or an oath by which Roman Catholic Members took their seats ?—(Hear ) He would further ask the Roman Catholics if they, living under the shelter of Protestant institutions, chose to make a change, was it not necessary to consult the convenience and the wishes of the country in which they lived ? (Cheers.) They had not consulted the convenience of the country, the wishes of the people, nor the safety of the Sovereign, and in doing as they had done they has committed a substantial aggres sion. —(Cheers.) He was not dwelling on mere words, phrase logy, or shadow, but was dealing with a substance. The Roman Catholics had changed a missionary Church into a normal Church, and had done so under circumstances, as it proved, hazardous to the general tranquillity and content of this Protes ant realm. But what remedy had the Go vernment provided in their Bill? When it was incor porated with the statate-book the red-stockinged Car dinal would still remain, and bulls, the introduction of which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman so much dreaded, would still be admitted. Of all things the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had the greatest objection to the introduction or the canon law. Whether he ',ad been consulted in the drawing up of the Bill he (Mr. Cardwell) could not say ; but he knew that in the one clause I to which it was now reduced there was nothing whatever to prevent the introduction of canon law and the assembling of synods. would it prevent the conversion of the money of young ladies to superstitious uses, to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman alluded when he spoke of the pleasure with which he had heard the petition presented by the Ho nourable Baronet (Sir H. Inglis) ? He had endeavoured to prove the bi hops of a voluntary Church exercised tem poral authority because the courts of law would take cog nizance of their by-laws made by the authority of the Church, and seemed to think the Bill defeated that power by preventing bequests and endowments. The Horiourable and Learned Gentleman did not know that the three clauses designed to have that operation had been withdrawn, and therefore the only foundation on which he rested his argu ment as to temporal powers had fallen to the ground.— (Hear.) What was the foundation laid when the Bill was introduced ? They were told that when Dr. Cullen came from Rome and went to Ireland he violated the law by taking the title of Archbishop of Armagh; that Lord Clarendon consulted the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General for Ireland, and received this answer :—" Dr. Cullen appears to have violated the law; but we have only seen newspapers ; we cannot get access to the fact in any other way than the newspapers ; but they are not evidence; and we shall not obtain possession of the letter, and therefore Dr. Cullen can not be prosecuted with success by the Irish Government." Now, would it be gravely believed that that was introduced as an argument for bringing in a Bill which would leave the law in England precisely as it was in Ireland, and that the day after the Bill was passed the Government of England would consult the Hen. and Learned Gentleman the Attor ney-General and Solicitor-General for England, who would say to them," Or. Wiseman has violated the law—we have only seen it in a newspaper; we cannot get access to the original letter, and therefore we cannot advise a prosecution of Dr. Wiseman ?" (Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had told them some remarkable cases in which foreign powers did vindicate their authority against the Pope. He referred to the case of Henry I , but he had forgotten to tell them that Henry 1., not content with that internal part of his proceedings, to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman referred, addressed the Pope in these words : "Be it known unto you that by God's help the dignities and usages of the kingdom of England shall not, during my lifetime, suffer any diminution. And even where I, which God forbid, so far to suffer myself to be abased, my nobles, nay the whole people of the land, would not in anywise per mit it." The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said they had passed a Bill by which they could negotiate with Rome. Then, he asked the Hon. and Learned Gentleman if all those great calamities had happened which he spoke of, if the dig nity of the Crown was insulted, if territorial rights were in vaded,if apower to interfere in temporal matters had b een assumed, why had they made no remonstrance—why was there nothing external done to relieve the country from the indignity which it had suffered? He asked that question for this reason, that be had been exceedingly struck by an observation made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Appealing to the Roman Catholic Members, he used these words, " What is the meaning of all this ferment you have excited against us ? You have spoken of us as if we were going to repeal the Emancipation Act." The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—What I said was, that they spoke as if we were going to re-enact the penal Acts. Mr. CARDWELL continued.—That made good h a argu ment. The Bill appeared to him to be just enough to irri tate, but not enough to satisfy. It appeared to him as if they had suffered a great external grievance from the Pope, but had visited it on the loyal Catholic subjects of this country— (Hear, hear)—and that they were doing it in this manner not so as to vindicate the honour of the Crown, or repel the insult they had received, or add one iota to the se curity of Protestant institutions; but they were creating iu the vitals of this country a little wound, a festering wound, the end of which they could not foresee, and the cure f which they could not undertake to perform. It appeared to him they were called on to assent to a measure which contained within itself no possibility of remedying the evil; because they should bear in mind that, restrain the assumption of ecclesiastical titles as they would, they would leave the thing just were they found it. There would be their archbishops, bishops, and synods; and there would be the canon law.— (Hear, hear.) There would be the whole usurpation entire and complete. They would have prohibited the usurpation of particular names under a penalty imposed by a clause which they knew they could not help being evaded, because they had seen it evaded in Ireland.--(blear, hear.) He looked with as much jealousy as anybody upon the per petual aggression of the Church of Rome. He feared there would be in this country a great public calamity, be cause he looked on religious discord and the perpetual dissent of one class of the community from another, as about the greatest calamity that could happen.— (Hear, hear.) He had uniformly endeavoured, adhering to the settlement of 1829, to remove all those obsolete enactments which had no force except that they were offensive to the feelings and irritating to the tranquillity of large bodies of his countrymen. He had done that in the earnest hope and expectation that by mutual moderation on both sides they might live together calmly and peacefully, believing as he did that truth was on his side, and that truth must prevail. But he must ask the forgiveness of his Roman Catholic friends if he said that that desire had not been without misgiving. He begged to remind the House of that remarkable passage in which the illustrious author of the emancipation closed his speech in proposing it to that House. He told the Ilouse of Com mons then, as lie (Mr. Cardwell) would repeat now, that it was very possible they might have a struggle, but it would be no longer a struggle for civil liberty; it would be a struggle against the intolerance of an aspiring Church. But, said he,— "We shall range on our side the illustrious authorities which have heretofore been enlisted en theirs; the rallying cry of civil liberty will then be all our own. We shall enter the field with the full assurance of victory, armed with the consciousness of having done just ice, and of being in the right; backed by th e u nanimous feeling of Eng land, by the v ti o ri i ir c i e u o n f s ion co o tl fahodr T every free state in e ither hemis p here, and oadnodx,y if and dissent, aid b e requisite, by t h the applaudingcheere cheered h y the sympathi es o f by the wish es an d the prayers of every free man, in what e v er other clime, or under whatever form of Government his lot may have been cast." It might be that the spirit of the Roman Catholic religion and the Protestant religion could not harmoniously coalesce ; but he earnestly hoped that the day of that struggle might be averted. But of all wars the worst was a little war ; anti of all wars the worst was a little civil war about re- ligious matters. He was persuaded that by assenting to this Bill they would not vindicate the honour of the Crown ; that they would not protect the soveriegnty of Great Britain ; that they would not repel this territorial in vasion ; that they would not accomplish any object by a solitiry clause which it was known would be evaded, and could not be carried into effect. lie believed that if the other clauses had remained in the Bill he cou'd have demon strated that there was not one of them that could not be evaded. He therefore considered that by supporting this Bill he should rather offer an affront than comply with the desire of Protestant England ; that he would be doing too much to render Ireland ungovern . ible, and that upon him would rest a share of the responsibility of that social strife which might arise on a subject in which they were now in the right, and which he agreed with the Hon. and Learned At:orney-General they must ever be watchful and cautious in their beginumg, because if they put themselves in a wrong position the retribution would recoile on them selves. Believing that that would be the effect of giving his support to the second reading of this Bill in regard to the safety of the country and the honour of the Crown, and those justly-excited feelings which Protestant England had displayed, he should refuse his concurrence to the second reading of this Bill. The debate was then adjourned to this day, on the motion (we believe) of Mr. M. MILNES. Mr. DISRAELI said it would be desirable if the House could know whether the debate would certainly be proceeded with this evening ? Sir G. GREY said, the Hon. Member for Bridport, who had a motion on the paper, had consented to postpone it, and he hoped other Hon. Members would do the same. Mr. SADLIER said he had a notice of motion on the paper; it was a matter of great importance, and under all the circumstances, he felt himself bound to proceed with it. THE BUDGET. Mr. DISRAELI wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Budget would come on on Friday? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Not on Fri day. It is impossible to say how long this debate will take; it will come on the first night after the debate. JEWS DISABILITIES. Mr. GOULBURN inquired whether, under all circum stances, the motion which stood in the name of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government for the alteration of the oaths of abjuration would come en this evening? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it would not come on. RELIGIOUS HOUSES BILL. At the request of Mr. J. O'CONNELL the second reading of this Bill was postponed until Thursday. Mr. REYNOLDS considered this to be a favourable op portunity of mentioning a fact which had come to his know ledge that day. The Hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. Inglis) presented a petition the other day from a gentleman, late a Member of the House, with reference to a Miss Talbot, who was said to have been sent to a nunnery at Taunton. The affidavit alleged one very material fact, which was at variance with the truth. It was stated that the young lady was sent to the nunnery as a postulant. That he believed was not the truth. The other business on the paper was then dispsei of, and .he House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 17. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at Five o'clock. PETITIONS. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition in favour of the Copyhold Enfranchisement Bill. The Earl of CAWDOR presented a petition from Pembrokeshire complaining of agricultural distress. SALE OF ARSENIC BILL. The Earl of CARLISLE postponed the further consi deration of this Bill for a week, in order to enable him to consider several suggestions which had been made to him for its improvement.__________ __ , DESIGN'S ACT EXTENSION BILL. The Earl of GRANVILLE said that a Bill on this subject had been introduced into the other House of Parliament under the auspices of the Government. When that Bill should come up, he would move to refer it to a Select Committee, on which his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham) might serve, and ho hoped that the Bill now before their Lordships on the same subject would be referred to a Select Committee, instead of being proceeded with forthwith. Lord BROUGHAM would consent to postpone the measure of which he had given notice on the subject of the patent law, and to have the whole subject referred to a Select Committee. He believcd that the adoption of such a course would be most advisable for the interest of those ingenious persons who devoted th. it attention to chemical discoveries and mechanical inventions. PASSENGERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of Earl GREY this Bill was read a third time and passed. REGISTRATION ASSURANCES BILL. Lord CAMPBELL, in moving the second reading of the above-named Bill, was very indistinctly heard at the com mencement of his observations. The Bill had been brought forward by the Government in pursuance of a recommenda tion contained in the Speech from the Throne. His Noble Friends in the Government had asked him to take charge of the measure in its passage through that House ; and, as it was a Bill wholly unconnected with politics, he trusted their Lordships would be of opinion that he was fully justified in complying with that request.— (Hear, hear.) The subject was one to which he had long attended, and in which he took the deepest interest. With respect to the measure to which he now invited their Lordships' attention, he thought it calculated to produce the happiest results, and he should be highly gratified if he could in any degree contribute to its success. Perhaps he should best discharge his duty by re minding their Lordships of the history of this question. Here the Noble and Learned Lord was not audible, but the general scope of his argument appeared to be, that at the earlier periods of our history the law required that publicity should be given to deeds connected with the conveyance of land. Subsequently and chiefly as was supposed by the efforts of ecclesiastics to avoid the statutes against mortmain, secret conveyances becavae very common. The Statute of Uses was passed for the purpose of preventing such secret conveyances ; but it had been thought that, in effect, it favoured them. The evil was found to be very great about the time of the Stuarts' reigns. Lord Bacon bringing his comprehensive knoledge and great sagacity to bear on the subject, made an attempt to remedy the evils while he was Chancellor, without having reeourse to an Act, of Parliament, for in those times the distinction between what might be done by Act of Parliament and what by the authority of the Crown was not as clearly established as at the present day. By his own authority, acting under the Crown, he issued a sort of edict, whereby it was required that all deeds should be registered in a par ticular office ; but at his fall this arrangement fell with him, and that great man's destiny was supposed to have been in some degree influenced by the secret enmity of those whose interests were injured by the regulation which compelled them to publish their deeds. Things continued in this unsatisfactory state until the time of the Com monwealth. Then flourished some of the greatest lawyers and jurists this country could boast of. Dur ing the Commonwealth a Bill was actually brought into Parliament—framed by Sir Matthew Hale, and strongly supported by him—for the establishment of a general re gister for all deeds. That Bill was opposed by all these who thought thst their interests might be prejudiced by it; and, perhaps, there was the less reason to regret that that mea sure did not pass, and that the work of registration had been delayed to the p esent time, because it could now be effected in a more beneficial manner than it would have been then; for that Bill proposed to establish a register-office in every county, end at that time it would have been utterly impossi ble to have one metropolitan registration-office, because it took weeks, and sometimes months, for a person to travel from a remote part of the country to London. That measure having failed - although strongly recommended by Sir Al. 1 - 141 e and the other great men of the time—nothing was done unt 1 the reign of Charles 11., and then it so happened that there was great agricultural distress, as there was now. The value of landed property became depreciated, and a Committee of their Lordship's House was appointed to cunsider the nature of tee distress and devise a remedy for it. The Committee reported that oue cause of the depreciation of the value of land was the uncertainty of titles to estates, and suggested that the remedy would be the establishment of a system of general registration of deep. Unfortunately their Lordships, instead of passing a measure in conformity with the recom mendation of the Committee's report, passed one of a mom questionable character, namely, a Bill to prevent the im portation into this country of cattle and corn from Ireland. It happened, however, that in the same year a Registration Bill was passed for the Bedford Level, which had continued in force dawn to the present day ; and it was a well-known fact that property in tact district was distinguished for greater security of title and facility of transfer then attached to estates in any other part of the kingdom. Nothing more was done on the subject until the reign of Queen Anne, when Bills were passed for establishing a register-office in each of the three Ridings of Yorkshire, and in the county of Middle sea. The system of registration thus established wile not on tee most approved principle, but nevertheless, with all its defects, it had proved beneficial. Other attempts were sub sequently made to establish a general registration, and in 1740 a Bill for that purpose actually passed through that House, but was lost in the other House. Nothing more was attempted for a long space of time, but in the time of Justice Blackstone he called the attention of the public to the sub ject. At present there were many persons who thought th.t everything connected with the law was in the worst pos sible state; but in Blackstone's time it was the general opinion that the system of English law was absolute perfection, and no attempt, therefore, was made to improve it. In 1815 Mr. Sergeant Onslow brought in a Bill to este bl sh a general registration of deeds, which was supported by the illustrious Hominy, who afterwards distinguished himself by his attempts to improve the law, both civil and criminal, Sergeant Onslow's Bill failed, and nothing more was done until the memorable speech of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (Brougham), which opened an era of law reform in this country. In consequence of that speech, which pointed out gross defects in the law, the Duke of Wellington ehe was Prime Minister, and had Lord Lyndhurst for hie:;eChan cellor, issued a Commission for considering the et"e ll f I t ifi law. Over that Commission he (Lord Camp,bve which the honour to preside a distinction h er n that from should always be proud—and he must say this * public men, that time to the present the most em a co s m ie m ce i r s e . without distinction of party, had beenbacrtisnuenaotfedthbayt desire to improve the law. sion, consisting of the most elmlieneomnate7co.nseevetyhanemcerabs, dtoinoktbt2h9e opinion of persons nest qualified t dee presented a report to the King, r i o n which they recommended registration of deeds. Soon the establishment of a genereil honour b of a seat in the other after that time, having thmovedaeofot: and obtained leave to House of effectParliamentehiand the Bill was intro ducedbring in a Bill to 1830. It object, It was not, properly speaking, a in December, 1 Government measure, but it had the sanction and aid of Lord Brougham, whe was then Chancellor. Their Lordships th would recollect that the period was not favourable to the consider ation of su bj ec ts so little exciting as reforms of thelaw p s a , r a li nl a c .. b e f or e he could mov e the second readin g of the Bill Parlia ment was dissolved, in April, IS3I. When the new mout was assembled he again brought in the Bill ; but still it was no time for attending to such matters, for, October having arrived, their Lordships rejected the Reform Bill on it s second readiug and the session closed. A n ew sess i on began on the 6th of November, and he again brought in a Bill for the establishment of a general regist ra ti on of deeds, which was referred to a Select Committee. The majority the Committee were against the Bill ; b u t , after sitting 29 days, they reported unanimously that a general registration would be of decided advantage to large purchasers; that its adoption, as to small purchases, might lead to ex penses counterbalancing the advantages; but that, on the whole, they were of opinion the system should be made ap plicable to all lands whatever. It happened, however, that unfortunately the most powerful and influential body in the kingdom, consisting of men, no doubt, most honourable, most intelligent, and respectable, w ho, as a class, possessed greater influence in an d ou t o f Parliament than any other body—he meant the country solicitors —were unfavourable to the Bill ; and the notion got among them that the etect of it would be to bring all business from the country to London. Petitions were poured in against it from every side, and among other representations it was stated Government in tended to lay on a further land-tax by means of that mea sure; in fact, since Pelham's Jew Bill, he believed there never was such excitement against any public measure, and the consequence was, that though the bill was read a second time, and was reported, it Was as much as any Hon. Mem ber's seat was worth to support it, and the oppositeon was so strung he was obliged to abandon the Bill at a further stage. That was in 1832, and when Lord Grey formed his Government, and did him the honour to appoint t ine Solicitor-Genera , he made one, and but one, condition with him, and that was that he should not again bring in his Registration Bill.— (Hear, hear, and laughter.) In that instance the Noble Earl, to have com menced his public career under whom had been the greatest pride of his (Lord Campbell's) life, showed his statemanship, for if public opinion was against the measure it would have been only acquiring unpopularity without any sufficient cause to have persisted in it. But the Bill in principle was still supported by an able fLiend of his, and was again intro duced in 1833. It was, however, rejected by a still larger majority on that occasion than in 1e32, and was again rejected on the second reading by a rn , jority more numerous than either of the preceding in 1834.—(Hear, and a laugh.) It was a mortifying thing to him that the first act of the Re form Parliament was to throw out his proposition. Nothing more was done in the case till 1846, when the tide turned. A Committee was appointed in that year to consider the burdens on land, and they reported that the market value of land was seriously diminished by the expenses attendant on sale and transfer, and that a registry of title to all real property was essential to the suc cess of any attempt to simplify the law and the existing system. Government, however, did not take any steps till July last, when a commission was appointed, which took in finite pains in ascertaining what peculiar burdens affected the land, and finally reported to her Majesty that the whole sub ject had been so fully considered by the former commission, they could only repeat the words of their report, and con clude by expressing an opinion that the establishment of a general registry was expedient. At the opening of the pre. sent session of Parliament, therefore, her Majesty, in the speech from the Throne, stated a measure would be laid be fore Parliament "providing for the establishment of a sys tem of registration of deeds and instruments relating to the transfer of property. This measure is the result of inquiries which I have caused to be made into the practicability of adopting a system of registration calculated to give security to titles, to diminish the causes of litigation to which they have hitherto been liable, and to reduce the cost of transfers." In consequence of that intimation from the Crown the pre. sent Bill had been prepared and laid before their Lordships, and he trusted he had said enough as to the authority for the measure to induce them to give a favourable considera tion to the Bill now upon the table. The practical evils the Bill was calculated to prevent were these : First, there was insecurity of title, next, expense and delay in alienation and mortgage, and next inconveniences arising from the want of a place where deeds might be deposited, so as to be accessible to those who had need to consult them. In security of title was an evil of the greatest magnitude. In every civilized country the title to real property must be proved by written documents, and mere possession gave no indication of the amount of the possessor's interest in land, such as it gave of the possessor's ownership of chattels. The estate might be held in fee simple, or might be en tailed, or with life limitations; it might be encumbered with charges for mothers, or sisters, or might be encum bered by the owner in fee to the last farthing of its value, and no person could ascertain the exact nature of the interest of the proprietor unless he saw all the deeds affecting the land. No matter what claims might be made against the land, any person producing a deed showing title would pre vail according to the priority of date of deed; and, let a purchaser take what precautions he might, the sup pression of one deed might cause him the loss of the estate after he had paid his money. The mere production of deeds, therefore, aftbrded no security whatever to the purchaser, because no one could tell whether they were all the deeds or not; and they had seen insances of purchasers who had been deprived of large estates by this want of security, after they had paid the full amount of the purchase money. The evil of this state of things was still greater as it affected mortgagees. There was now no record of mortgages, and a person who imagined himself the first encumbrancer might probably find there had been prior mortgages, and he not only ran a risk of losing his money from prior but from subsequent mortgages, by a process well known as " tacking and squeezing." By this process the third mortgagee might be preferred to the second ; be cause, if after the second mortgage was effected the owner executed a third without notice, and the third mortgagee bought up the first, he had an assignment of the legal estate, and the second mortgagee was squeezed out of his interest; bat the delays and expenses of sale and transfer were also very great at present. First, after bargain completed, the solicitor of the vendor gave an abstract of title, as it was called, to the solicitor of the purchaser, which was some times half a mile long, containing a history, not only or one title, but perhaps of several titles. Next, the solicitor must make cure the deeds referred to in the abstract applied to the estate, and he must examine the boundaries, look over the county histories, and send his clerks to make inquiries —all at great expense— before the identity of the premises could be ascertained. It was not enough that a title should be safe —it should be marketable also, and a title which was quite safe might not be marketable, and vice versa. The practice of creating terms of years for the purpose of charging estates had led to still further embarrassment and difficulty ; for it was necessary to trace each of the terms established to its source, and to take its full effect in respect to the value and encumbrances on the property. As " terms " were of the nature of chattels, they went to the executor, and therefore the solicitor must get probate of the will, which was another enormous expense. There were 370 courts in which probate might be entered ; but if, as was as likely as not, it was not taken out in the proper court, it was void, and of no avail. If there were bona notabilie in a diocese where there was a prerogative administration, probate would be of no good as conveying title to them unless properly taken out in that diocese. These terms for years had been found so mischie vous, however, that about seven years ago Parliament passed a Bill by which those terms had been, generally speaking, annihilated. But when the protection of those terms, which secured the legal estate and barred equitable dairies was re moved it became only the more necessary to establish some protection in its place, and none appeared likely to be so efficient as that of registration. Again, the same evils affected the owner in raising money by insurance. The ex penses augmented the interest from 4to 6 or 7 per cent., and the landowners were still at the mercy of the insurance.. offices, for, though money might be got at a lower rate else where, it was better to be subject to a higher interest than to bear the expense of investigating title again. There was another evil where the same set of deeds repre sented lands in which a great variety of persons had different interests. The vendor was bound by covenant to give at tested copies of the deeds, and produce the originals ; but the registration would prevent the necessity of such an expen sive and troublesome course When he was at the head of the Landed Property Commission he heard of a case where a gentleman sold a small property, and entered into the usual covenant to give attested copies, and produce the ori ginals of the deeds. This he found to be a most alarming burden, and, having a sharp attorney to deal with, the latter filed a bill in Chancery against him, and it was found the attested copies would cost more than the amount of the purchase-money.--(A laugh.) The attorney accordingly said, "he would wave his right to the attested copies if the owner would wave his right to the purchase-money," and the vendor was delighted with the offer--(Laughter.) If the deeds were deposited at a certain place, and it was pro vided no person should be affected by any deed not thus de posited, these evils would be obviated. He would state now the machinery of the Bill, for he was aware the value of such a measure depended on the mode of its being carried into effect. The Bill, in the first place, provided there should be one register-office in the metropolis for the whole kingdom ; and he had no doubt that such a determination was wise, and that one great central office would be infinitely preferable to a multiplicity of local offices. When he was in the other House of Parliament an offer was made to him to withdraw all opposition to his Registration Bill if he would allow it to be changed by establishing registration-offices in every county in England, but he had refused. He believed not only would the expense be greater in small local offices than in one metropolitan office, but that there would be no unifor mity of system and satisfaction to the public. In York, Middlesex, and Ireland, where registration of deeds existed, it was sometimes usual to register only a memorial of the deed, which gave a sort of abstract, stating the names of the parties, and, occasionally, but not always, the opera tive part of the deed ; but that system had been found very ineffective, and it did not answer the purpose of persons in tereeted to see the deed itself, arid it did not afford the infor mation required in its absence. The most effectual mode of obtaining the real objects in view was to require every deed, or a duplicate copy of it, to be deposited in the register office. It would be found the expense of making a copy was less than the expense of preparing an abstract. The Bill having, therefore, provided for the deposit of the deed or du plicate, the next consideration was to fix the districts ; and, though there was to be but one office, t was proposed to divi je the count.) , into districts, and it had been suggested that it would be convenient to adopt the divisions of the poor-law unions. Then came the important question respecting which the Commissioners were not agreed, and that was the mode of registration. One of the most accu r plished lawyers ever known, the late Mr. tluval, had invented a mode of indexing which did away to a great extent with the evils and incon veniences arising out of th original mode suggested, which was an ephabetical list of grantors. And here hecouldnot but relate an anecdote of that eminent lawyer, whose friend ship he was glad to have enjoyed, as exemplifying the He (Lord Camp earnestness and simplicity of his nature d at his patience • bell remarked to him once he wondere with such unabated.pe.lar poling over papers day after ( 3 2. Y a that recompenses mode of c ome upon a brilliant deed— the work severance. " Ob," said Mr. f D t a h va t l, it is tedious,. to be sure, but sometimes I arrangement of granto d r 1 ue - h A th w e h o o nl e y xe w cu a, ted indexing de a e x g ir tediumne g a tbmyca thete master—mod alphabeticalr s . A o d e tso f o es r vheo a rw l y l how inconvenient it was they would just think the hun of dreds was by finning out eseS o th r e ofall the ‘d.ereatrisilomf Sidmdiltesehsx:nadndJotuhesates year is all the facts ab .ut one going through all the deeds of all theon Smiths in the register. Mr. Duval sugge sted arrange ment of deeds by " classification," which to be mar k e d in each class by a particular sym w b a c;. For merly. there was a difficulty of identifying the land with the symbol employed, on acco unt cesurvey, system of maps. That defect, however, had now been sup plied. There had been an Ordnanhe deficiencyandof a survey n rvey and maps under the Act f or the Commutation our Tithes and the Poor-law Amendment Act; so that now there existed public maps extending over a large proportion of England. He therefore had no difficulty in proposing that maps should be employed to carry out the purposes of this Act. For each district these maps would be provided, divided into two com partments, one containing mar k s representing the land, and the other an i n d ex of the land so delineated. Taking up, for example, the map of a district, a person would see a mark denoting the land he was interested in. He would there find a reference to the index, and on going to the index it would tell him whether there had been anything registered affecting that land • and it would, moreover, indic ate where lie would find all the deeds that existed with reference to it. The de fect that most strongly applied to any plan without the maps was, that there would be nothing to connect the deed that was symbolized with the land that was to be conveyed ; but, if the maps and indices were to be employed as he proposed, that difficulty would be greatly ahnpli feel ( Hear, hear.) The next question referred to the effect of unregistered deeds. The doctrine i England WAS, that the person who claimed on a registered deed was to be prejudiced and postponed, if it could be shown that he had notice of the existence of a deed that was unregistered. The uncertainty and litigation which this state of the law created was very great, and therefore the Bill proposed that no person should be affected by any deed that was not registered, thus completely exploding the doctrine of notice. With respect to the objections urged against the measure, it was said in the first place that this was a great innovation ; but he must eay it was rather a return than otherwise to the ancient simplicity of the law. Besides, the system had been practised in some counties in England, for some centuries in Scotland, where it had operated most advantageously, and had also been found beneficial in Ireland. In considering this question the important fact was ever to be borne in mind, that in almost every country in Europe they had registration of some character or another, and that in none of those coma- 6