The Sun. — London, England, 1850-05-01 00:00:00

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I ' 9 0"/ 9,60 5 'bd ey s sarie s o ll o) s 49 t‘t reoos e 01 ,1 ( g r eas° B .de of t A for t he , of ig c j l ,9f , spn es f lo %re ' 0 1; too' es res ll ol salaries 09.0 big w as a pric e itd o o o ,,i) eve; o ° o l9 in°3 3 bee tis s ui' ' ,4 it h e i„cr e b et!) )ut t° of t 4 pOrt i°f3 to tb- 101 ree d t tetePl an 5. 0 f0r c ,01. or 3 to i b l , lo , G 01 ,5 • o f r epo' norv,' o o coalr d ty „cote til .tv folk o 0 , Al !' ir g e r r t o 0' 5 ;09 it. oe f er' riot a du o? 4 ,0 to r e he " ti ;rani , jes P i° rota,;oo te ,v Li in 0 8 $ 0 dy bt s f oit ., ll 0 ,F 4 , It I jot) 07 t heir oor„,' the tb'e f Ad i6e !sibs - 0 0 1 , 0 o wa s j; te o il se ttle be .000 '° eP ti oer •e , se serfle e th e e%l a lb 1 ;00fi l3 ,fer° ; for s be AO inaneloCrl 9 t P o r, hares co o ; , to 0 ` oar t oo ,o otih 50 03 0 pe e or o i e o r UP g ° o l jerl.. 5r 0 f' od, elf pe ritY vot or: j e ss t 8 of ,11 f L • it v a re :; 01 ; * 0 . ‘," :c 0 0, lir, be a to ifi e pt .A of thFioDleOL, hfie d a l ti• the ..ijoa se o ' c‘' l l tb l " °- W i i ) a f ret well a d treat oio e P u oi te g rr f on ° o f t h ye! ,e Like d o f lA t oc f ,; place. b ~ fs ci • 't• he 5 0 11 ', ( e r an Ibe es w ee ag ing r o 0 a d the t • sect 0 0o- f by tb ° LA ' ~ s tc ici co :ociated tili,., wh ________„_,_------ hi e !, r n 0 laris ei exi s ted f ir t h e sa l a -i ts ho:eae iis p ; li tlisia than mow. The truth %V ai, it was tvt e , o '''' . ' t , institwe . ...orree.t camper - lion be- , 4. tie: sairiee o f t h e two periods. The s(i.leriss peiu ..Peesees at the former eericel were Ler ::n :amount ow ,Y. n 'i what the Holt Geetlenera lied any i Ica ` f th s , 4 t ° the mode in which ;lei; were p Aid ; and tele cif ehel!rt'e4"st i ta, Id system. .... low len of r rove:r-Tits in (he public service was the i!ee an I the substitution of regular salaries r la le tit a oivu h t) i e t d f a : feared d th e er of by far than what we-, received under T th h e e ir o r l e d 4u s i t ri •s r t i e ti m es r to evi a ve s d ta i t f e ha i which b e t e o n o 1 1 :: e ll: (Uen -40 fill ffi _ e e dstatement t ue rn 7d e uct 3 ion took . _ place i d b, Mr Bromley, thatp of chief c'erk of stores in the at av \ I ._` ; •at a salary of 100/. a year, from 1763 t i 1784. It dri!ed from the report of the Committee on fees, that I) ia s i e h the salary of Mr. Bromley was but 100/. a-year, e , s4 7 . eied in fees 2,000/. a-year. So that his actual 2,10 01 210aients. including salary of 100/ , ' °I amthult e ed after 01 , f ., • Per annum. In the year 1817, many Y' a" 14 0 'es were abolished the same office was filed by Mr. lliley• a la or e th brother at a ' fixed salar . yof 740/ b . eing litt . le . j 0 ,. e. , an one-third of the emoluments previously ei. tie l u ll : , I ,. ut in the year 1849-50, the scale of salary ee kra "ler elerk of the storee was fixed at 5001. to th e " l ee with, and to rise 20l n-year until it attained the 0 Inazi laluna of 6501. When they compared atiettoureluments as they then existed with the re ttlee " Whi eh had since taken place, the differ is tie wculd he found to be enormous. taoueh no doubt, lockue,fieed amount of salary for both periods was only bier) at, the apparent increase was very great.—(fleet, the result could cite a great number of similar c ases, w as til"- ti ` t Of which would be just the sums. Then . there te en :: 'Nene of plurality of offices. That system had becc`"Y prevailed to a great extent; but it had now ht i ' ll il(r at an Qa d M. This was another circumstance . t a s put , render any comparison of salaries new with times resacutejeoePtive, and would afford no true criterion of . Ist p. as in emoluments which had really taken plac ( e ) . oclrditi Guvernment had done away et l e ur °l ents by fees, and if they had at the same "d due f ' • with the system time f ree et h , , per ermance ot public duties—if Govern -11, i . au interdicted this practice of making up inc me h e f'olegUler means —then the actual reduction would tr am s m' to be larger than any return that could be tileri would show; and he must say, to demand fur had hild tt•jeduetions, after the amount of reduction that .. just es ge ll carried into effect, would be cruel and un itse ec i" the higheit degree. A publication had been Plo ye ,, ,setting forth the number of persons em of their' the public service in France. The amount th e h salaries was not permuted to be given, but est e ... ll ! nh er was stated at 266.500 persons. The i nea er r : sohs",:a.te that could be formed of the num . ber eo o nn p tr _ y, eici edie P lo Yed in the public service of this fifte oe °R,those locally employed, was somewhere. about v et :Persons. Now, he did not really believe there e Vet t e 4 Y coUntry in the world where the public servic .... (Ei arriecl on by so few persons, at such small cost. ar the ei e ltr ' h ear.) He would not presume to say how , t he se of Commons would be disposed to accept told m at ` a l° o Y of a person holding 'actit ° e -ee in more than ono department, he hoped the . office yet having liehh c - ,`.'°Uld give him credit if he said his experience in %kin the assured him that the servants of the public,. body! t,henl throughout, were by no . means an overpaid I , ay e , c 'me consequence of an unwise reduction publi c nt of an efficient public servant was, that the in the list s : w ere likely to lose the advantage of his ser -1414 it Privat e establishments would get them away, aid ae ; w as impossible for Government to attempt to d pieeeadist prime offers. The only way to induce good la as m servants to keep their posts was to keep . t x. .shah 'en t number and at fair remuneration. His e eleti oh e ,as a public officer did not lead him to the con atoelte-etne,t the public departments were at all over lieghtT L ir the public service had first-rate men, they tsw ae 0 ue d retained, for if lost they they were not easily Itl ltle s o - Ile spoke hem experience when he sai that ti eos o,g which tended to discourage or damp then 'er jity t 1 E fficient public servants would prove p a real i h n- Audeic°hthe puSlic service. He had always thought h t e t Itti lliti e ,7 4l a right to the whole services and the es 4t ki f : °I Public servants ; and if the public had true e _ sithe e rat 414 .; servants and wished to retain them, they He firmly be tiZeti the re not to discourage them. . , „ car. effect of the Hon. Gentleman's motion, it til eot Would be to cause great an d l as ting discourage leerk amo ng deserving public servants. The public Rav e would not be better done by those who s ' P ottle t h )tt lY lip and not heart service. Thi s Ilti° eial,: e f ound to be a sound principle—it wa o s n. Sad if woich all private establishments acted t up men , Ivhc se k ill the public business, they only go titr e o'earts were nut in their work, they Id be tett.) 4'nd the public work not well o . ne. w —(Hear, 10 the t '''' did not wish to express any opinion contrary an h am ' e rnrs of ,b i the o motion f the Hon. Member, o that icer ee address be presented to her Majesty humbly . Ibtit °e at that she will be graciously pleased to direct ingots Careful revision be made of the salaries cri e e w ith 4, i d in every department of the public servle, eue re view to a just and adequate reduction thereof, t _ e severslard being had to the efficient performance of e h x. lire s , ca duties." The sentiments of the motton te k h t t entirely his opinion. He held that economyNith d ° be insisted iipon, and practised consistently I,'ted s e e et eictury On that opinion Government now lie tp ' o "" i d acted, and would continue to act.—(Hear.) 'lad sold atle the House to ass to the other business, I °l iirtieL wi shing to negative directly a motion which 'mov e , t ,'' it kind of on Government, he would bear "ue Previou3 question, cenre hoping at this same time the e would gise Government credit for acting up to ' l 'tter': e ssion in making such reductions as were co , n- Nej e w ith the due and efficient performance of tJe 'lld .pact, that being, in his opinion, the only true 1, 11 ~,e.titett „on ~ ,ny . .-.-ZC beers.) (I,oto 1')ElkIC.I;:lt having put the question, _ _ 1)3 ` P.1 aPi S t 4 mom) expressed his opinion that the of ec °4 °I the HO's._ Gentleman did not amount to a vote (0,431111 bahhe Goverement. But what if it did? He 1 4, 1 11 %''erp) did not ' care a farthing whether (Laugh ;, e r.) 1 . ", eut contidered it in that light or not.—(Lau,, ot „`" t e ",, w as clear from the speech of the Chancellor 'or e chequer that there were to be neither reductions e htei t a ? li k asions of salaries. The Chancellor of the Ex- _ t k r t. "ad drawn a corn . arisen between the affairs n . 0 . 1 t ` v ay 0 - 7" country and those p of the Great Western ai e l . ti 4se eir e t a e P4n 3. Humbug. There was no analogy b t yer h p cases n ot the least in the world. He had ead he a railway share in his life—(Laughter) — n, did igq - G r - not care a straw about the situation in which de ree r eat Western Company had got itself, except . that f lie 4r ; jetted the circumstance that the fair salaries o eachengealid indefati sable servants had been cut down. vseit y l i tze respected railway directors in their private ca- Red h i had no hesitation in sayiug that when . they en ,ewas tleld'Y respectable men t i transact their business f „ . "'e f j," ° , hard afterwards to cast them off because . o 17eie(1°Xu, r eckless, and extravagant mariner in which "„ea 8 ,, - ;",, er n e es had been conducted. A great deal had et h e t- e i e (.1 the reductions which had taken place, and :tch D e ,; er ks which had been removed; but what did f je hi e i, tr Y r eductions amount to when the salaries of ` i lYs 'r es t officers in the state—men who passed their Nttit,ll idle d L Hess, and whose lamentable ignorance ince (t°otkadeuhelli for ' business. were untouched ? 41-'" lag gut ) II believed in his soul that the ea 'et e. ", e 'le e s e ignorance of her Majesty's Ministers O f th e - greet that if it were not for the exertions treytires go eserving. clerks the public business would on (Laughter.) It was on the Treasury pack the reform Was required. He saw no reasons b each taalitries of the individuals who adorned that . O tt f fe,:dauould not be reduced in proportion with the price et." t; I,(Lalighter.) In former times a Chancellor e‘ setti st , -c",equer could not stir abroad unless in a eti gh i ~.arew . , " by four horses, but now the ill the°4°lloUrable Gentleman opposite might travel 110 ouw third class like any other passenger, and respect t ° th e e w ° ll kl be a , bit the wiser. Now, with , eipetri stistressed needlewomen, and the process of tards.,s 4 e ti4 that had been recently adopted in their Fe these wse,aughtee)_he disapproved altogether of making Il etity de° Marketable commodities for sale and barter. Que er °: work might be found for them at home, at re -140 atiee prices , . f or .thi e c but for the vile syst-m of importing of the tie li tßne eee ""ntry the cheap and nasty goods.him to a`tid his (L aughter) —and thus encouraging mesee,e l- Nohish ' to the damage of our e ' ll lg art and embroidery o tecd eaens. It was to the free-trade system that ' l ad tee so Much of thepoverty which our countrymen k • eette Then, !sip with were labouring under.—(Laughter.) . 1) t, aY ; e ,. regard to the forthcoming nonsensical dis eee ter th e ~ Exhibition 1 10 °°s ider d • . „ he t i e it his duty to warn all persons with whom gOtti. anted haft near it—(Leughter)-- , 4 m e influence not to go ) He had ' tet y 6v.Roed could come of it.—(Laughter. Part a 'sited the place where he re,ided for the most di lri ' ll -tt th ee had told the people not to go to London t ic g year 1 - of 1 85 , 8 al—(Laughter)—becaus . . _ boo to e 'was a humbug, the only object of which would lit e'-°°lla e •send his cheap and le a fy g oo ,. g ,. the foreigner to t leved ef ', 4 % here they were not evan.e l.—(Laughter.) h tl 'ile s a ' niniselt of the opportunity to exht i b't is ee ls Pe adset sP e te d it uts n men of the foreigner's skill—so d he can p ter.... ,ip.tigeave, .eecnanter.—(Leughter.) Y f ee lh a e imposition a l_ a . iep eite ' e. o__,nter, and the N price e o lis e 4 In thi s co ((Laughter.) asked, how was a Now, to eat roast lle; "II drink entry, who was accustomed 14 sti a , Strang ale, af ter the manner of a t a :d on E re ° coMpete with those nasty foreigners who I homanufac p_ed .dce, erareed and sour krout, an( Lo w url laughter.) ciletitd.eelar'eclat sixpence a piecet?h— (industrious me lt tP° and ine " . .w” too bad that who e wes unable to get p ol l: cley , 6 U latigable labourer, t wages for a fair ay's work, aon h Id be coin ' the d ' l5 come' ' f idle fellows on Ale 'p rciur ibute to fattens he set e He was sure that 1 *e s re d oe ti e Y os he w n o ehi d — ( Lau gh d te r. ) because self-interest ketillibt bottom and would prevent it. The Honourable til4 er for deserved the thanks of tr, Nlitt v fo . ti °F3'lit e,,,' r the able manner in which he had con e rare t 0 r,ward the subject. He hoped he would . rsis tan a gitate dr , and if so, he might depend upon . any keel. ee , in the shape of shot at the enemy, which lie hot e" l bthorn) i' e • a hies.—(Laughter.) He did 11 , eu teev e _ceui give , Pee 0 , er, think that much impresscould be made ion Su e "e %tope hearts Gentlemen oc the Tres y be och. J.. of Hon. We ectui lieure 41 dissolution of Government would be the dthen they e old See • Let there be a dissolution, an 'ever co ' %%I'lo would come in and who would go out and ai l tee In an , ai _ d e °oese t , 6 11 .—(A laugh.) They might t . hen have de en wilt H ouse P ght, independent Ministry, and an in p . ti fr ee fr et Commons, Cotntnons, for they had seen quite enough teetuae oneee,.---(Laughter.) The Hon. and Gallant Gen that the Z;ilded, amid great merriment, by observing . eate em :L t Y o way to restore this country to her former t Mill en make her the envy and terror of surround - opp re , ,s, and a refuge and asylum for all who might be te e s e" elsevsh • eed eze __ B . ere, was to stimulate the honest and unre tekr. N tv r t:!en of opinion on the part of Hon. Gentlemen. state hi s t ot ' t "EGATE stated that it had very seldom lee lea , 0 hear so lucid, comprehensive, and terse a •alee l e cr i f ' as that which had been made by the Hon. %parcel' 9xf ordshire. The contrast that it presented IDposit() W w ith the rep l y of the Right Hon. Gentleman zli lite • as 4/1104 marked, end he was certain had made an upon the minds of Hon. Gentlemen.—. '-"--~ TIIE S UN, LONDON, I7V.RDNVS D AY EVENING, MAY 1, 1850. His Hen. Friend had ad tressed the liouae with no pesty spirit or party purpose, and his object was nee as in:imeted by the Chancellor ci the Exchequer, te nasi a v ote of cenatire on the Ministey.—(ll. ar, Soiletermined, however, was the 'tints:. Hoe. Gentseman to prevent the full discussien opinion on the s tiejac•, that he had ehareed the .n. Member fee with in Lein , an a ttsck up al the Government. He (Ms. New de ,ate) had vet to Learn that a Government had the right to to forbid an expression Of opinion upon a ques tion of expe.ndituae, and All less had her Majesty's Government a right to preclude discussion on the pra sent occasion, as they themselves had, by the appointment of a Committ -e, admitted that inquiry into the public ex penditure was necessary and expedient. It did not Follow by any means that because the Chancsller of the Exchequer had instanced cases of the St. Kathe rine D ,cks Company add the Great Western Railway Company, who had been imprudent, that the House of Commons was not to inquire into the expenditure of the country, or advise her 11aje,ty'a Gevernm-nt upon the c curse which they considered it most desirable to adopt. —(hear, hear.) Those corporations were altogether alien to the suhject-m atter of the present motion. The object of his H in. Friend was not. t ► discharge the pub lic servants engaged in the various departments of the Government, nor was it even by implication t east esti sure upon the Ministry, bat it simply amounted to this, that inasmuch as we had arrived at an epoch in our commercial policy which hel caused a destine in tee value of all the necessaries of life, an opportunity was afforded thereby far a revision of salaries, and for an inquiry into the remuneration of the labour of the public servants. He could show the House, by reference to circumstances which had taken place in years gone by, that the present proceeding was not without precedent. He would allude to periods sub sequent t) 1793—the period chosen by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—and he could show that, in the year 1801, the salaries of the artizans employed in the Ord nance-office had been increased, under the sanction of Mr. Pitt, in consequence of the high price of food and the necessaries of life. At that period it was proposed to increase the salary of a Mr. Rose, but he, to his credit be it said, declined to receive it. on the ground that he had other sources of employment and did not require it.—(Hear, hear.) He could also state that, in 1810, the Excise officers of Edinburgh had memorialised the Treasury for an increase of salary, and that, in 1812, the Commissioners of Excise had petitioned for an in crease of the salaries of their department, and that Lord Liverpool, who was then in office, granted the applica tion, on the ground that inasmuch as food and all the necessaries of life had become exceedingly dear, it was just and reasonable to increase the salaries of the public servants. He had alluded to those cases, because he considered them important, and applicable to the point under consideration. The reduction in prices that had recently taken place operated to the a lvantsge of the recipient of fixed money incomes. A reduction of 25 per cent. on an article like 100 sacks of wheat, worth, say 1001., was an advantage to the owner of the salary equal not merely to one-fourth, but to one-third of the whole cost. The low rate of wheat hail been adverted to by his lion. Friend as a proof of presperit s. Great delusions had taken place on that subject. The lowness of the rate of interest arose from the fluctuations in our commercial and monetary regulations. The money market was often glutted because the investine parties had no profitable means of employing their capital. He rejoiced that his Hon. Friend, who introduced the mo tion, had shown beyond a doubt, that if Government had the will they could effect very great reductions in the salaries of the public departments, for, as he had pointed out, those salaries exceeded the amount paid for the army and navy services. That being the case, he would recommend to the Honourable Mem ber for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden), when he next addressed parties out of that House, to tell those parties that there was another way of practising economy than by reducing and weakening the defences of the country. and that he would not venture to affirm, as he had been doing, that there was no other mode by which economy could be practised than by reducing those establishments. His Honourable Friend bud shown that Government had a sum of seven millions and a half with which they could deal, the whole of which was paid to parties resident iu this country, who were deriving the full benefit of the reduction in the prices, and in respect of whom reductions could be made in consequence. In the pay of the acidic, they could not make reductions,l or more than half e f his life was passed in foreign countries, where his was denied the advantage . from the reduction of prices in this country. Should they deal with the consular establishments, they were in the same situation ; but, taking into considera tion the whole question, he would leave it to the country to decide who were the true poli tical economists. Was it his lion. Friend who recom mended that a per-tentage, equal to half the advantages which the holders of those salaries were deriving from the reduction of prices, should be taken off the salaries; or was it those who, like the Hon. Member for the West Riding, proposed to adopt the expenditure of a year long past, without at all considering the altered circum stances of the then state of things and the present? To his mind there could be no dount as to which of the two parties were operating in the right direction. The one adopted the expenditure of 1835 as the Shibboleth of a movement, and us the basis of an agitation, in order that by means of it they might get introduced into that House motions which they were sure the common sense of the Members of the House would not allow them to support, and then to go forth and hold up to the ridicule of inflated mobs the men who opposed their foolish motions; but who were, in fact, contending for reduc tions in the expenditure in the only comietrnt and just ground on which it could be granted. The other party were those who demanded those reductions in the man lier he had just stated, and as those demands were just he hoped the House would show on that occasion that it would respond to them. After a lapse of a short time strangers were ordered to withdraw. but Mr. HUNIE at length rose, and said that he considered the motion of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire one of a practical and us. ful nature. With respect to the Com mittee appointed by the Noble Lord, he did net think anything useful would result from the proposed inquiry, which was limited to three branches of the service, and on which the Government possessed all the necessary in formation. The Noble Lord was well aware of the du ties of the officers appointed by the Crown, and nothing but the will was wanting to carry out such reductions es he might think necessary. What was the proposition of the Noble Lord ? A Committee "to inquire into the salaries arid emoluments of offices held during the plea sure of the Crown by Members of either House of Par liament, voted in the annual estimates; and also into the salaries and emoluments of judicial officers in the superior courts of law and equity in the United King dom, and into the retiring pensions allotted to the judges; and also into the expense of diplomatic establishments charged on the Consolidated Fund." lie (Mr. Hume) thought the inquiry ought to be extended to other branches; and he should have advised the Noble Lord to adopt the motion of the Hon. Gentleman in deference to public; opinion.—(Rear.) He did not think much re duction could be made in the salaries of the clerks, but he was of opinion that their number might be consider ably diminished. The country would not rest satisfied unless further inquiry was instituted. But after the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not think that any one could expect to see the inqniry ex tended. Lord J. RUSSELL—It is now going on. Mr. HUME was aware of that, but he wished a re. vision of all departments. Not that he was disposed to refuse adequate salaries. Quite the contrary. .11e would willingly increase salaries and pay of all kinds, provided they could get rid of the enormous amount ex pended in pensions and half-pay. To say that all salaries should be reduced to a certain extent would not be fair. He was surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have alluded to the parish of Marylebone. A tnore unfortunate instance could not have been referred to. He had himself spent three Saturdays in investi gating their accounts. The auditors compared the ex penditure of fifteen different parishes, and it appeared that Marylebone was the most extravagant of them all. —(Hear, hear.) The object of the present motion was inquiry. No injustice was contemplated by it, nor any reduction that would impair the public service. What objection, then, could be urged against it of any weight? He was ready to support any proposal likely to be beneficial for the country. He did not think the motion attributed any blame to the Government, and he should vote for it without intending to impute such blame. He regretted the Government should have ob jected to the motion, because an impression would gof rth that they were not desirous of inquiry. He thought the Noble Lord should have followed the example which he himself gave in 1830, when he obtained the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the salaries of heads of offices. The reductions that had recently been made in the Customs had worked well. If a partial revision had produced beneficial results, a general revision would pro duce much greater. They might deal with the whole revenue, excepting the parts of it allotted to payment of the interest of the national deft and the civil list. — (Hear, hear.) Ile had no desire to touch the civil list. The readiness with which her Majesty had come forward with the proposal that her income should be made liable for the income-tax ought not to be forgotten.—(Ht art) He hoped the House would nut consider this a party vote. They were there as trustees of the public purse, and it was their duty to promote economy. He should vote fir the motion. Mr. ROEBUCK wished, in a faw words, to explain the principle on which he should vote. He intended to vote for the motion, though he thought it a most use less one—a motion, in fact, almost without meaning, yet he intended to vote for it.—(Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had, he understood, moved the previous question ; but he would have done the mo tion greater injury if he had dealt with it otherwise. If the Right Honourable Gentleman had acceded to the motion—a motion which had been brought forward for a purpose—of which the meaning was not in its words, but in its intent, and which could not effect what its mover intended—if the Right Honourable Gentleman had acceded to each a motion, he would have gained the popularity'of being:an economist by consenting to n mere truism.—(Hear, hear.) Let them understand the pro position, for he liked to deal with gentlemen fired with this new-born zeal for economy. It was for a humble address to her Alajesty, praying for a careful revi sion of the salaries and wages paid in every depart ment of the public service, with a view to ade quate reductions therein.—(Hear, hear.) But that was not all; there was a guarding clause—" due regard being had to the efficient performance of the several duties." Was not this preoisely the rule on which Mi nisters of the Crown had always acted ? The Noble Lord might have accepted a proposition so qualified without any hesi-ation. He wished t o know who the parties were whose salaries it was proposed to revise? He agreed with the lion. Member for Montrose, that the fact of more persons being employed than was ne cessary would be a reasen for inquiry. But a great farce was being played bsfore the country as to the re muneration of their public servants. They ought to tintierst.a;“l where they ought to give. lie wris not one who grudgPti ad- gusto payment to the hard-werkimg ervant. Sinec.t.ires were another affair. The Hon. Baronet the Memiler for Marylebone had put his linger on a rein okAbli, iteci. lie hoped he should base the support of those great economists when he came to deal wita sin(:curei, as he proposed t't do. With reference to the motion before them; he had a Curious return relating to the several establishments in the public service. The highest was the Treasury. At present 37 persons were em e leyed in managing the affairs of the Treasury. It appeared that the average age at which per soes began service in the Treasury was twenty years. Every man of business knew that a grs at deal had to be learned as to the mere business of the office, however instructed a person might enterit in other respects. If a man possessing the highest university honours were placed in the office, he would his as a chill as regarded the business to be done. lle would go there as a learner or student is the public service. lie e its.ire.l at the age of 20, with a sa- ' Lary of ea/. a year. He must be there two years before ail rise of sa:ary cal he granted. At present the clerks is the Treasury were divided into four classes. The lialsries of the first class were from 901. to 10)1. a-year; on an average clerk would be 32 before he obtained 200/ a-year. Th,z salaries of the second class were from 100/. to 500/.; on an average a clerk would ba 50 before he git his 500/. a-year. The question wag, ware these gentlemen —f it they were gentle men overpaid? The salaries of the third class were from 5001. to SOO/. a-year. The last class are those with salaries of 1,0004 a-year; but before that salary could be obtained, Vie age of 59 must have been reached. —(Rear, hear.) He was talking of the ordinary work ing men—not of those with political influence to push them ou.--Jleas, hear.) Now, looking to the habits of this country—for they must look to habits—looking to what a man must go through before he could fit himself for the office, and looking to the po sition he must hold in a great town like London, where he had to meet others in the position of gentlemen—was it to be said that a man was overpaid who, at 60, found himself at the highest salary in a public office of 1,0001. a year? — (Hear, hear.) Would any man who had devoted his years to the law think himself overpaid at 60 by obtain ing 1,000/. a year?—(Elear.) Then let them consider the position of the clerk. From day to day his family depended on his being able to perform his duty in his office. In dealing with such men it was only fair to tike into account the ordinary exigencies of society. Was it to be said that the State should be niggardly to such men, when, if they had adopted a mercantile life, they would have been better paid?—(Au Hon. Member— " No."] An Hon. Gentleman said, no. Why, let them take any large mercantile establishment. Let them take the Balk of England. It appeared that the cashier had 1,4001. a y ear, with a tree residence; the assistant cashier, 1,000/.; the accountant, 1.200/.; and the as sistant-account act, 9701. a year. There was no niggard liness either in the disposition of the East India Company with respect to the payment of their servants.—(Hear.) Those servants were well paid, but they were efficient men, who worked well, and, considering the nature of their duties and the offices they filled, they were not overpaid. But making all these admissions, knowing the policy of Government, and maintaining, as he did, that all those who rendered good service to the State ought to be well paid, he would ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Administration whether it would not be wise to disabuse the public mind of an erroneous impres sion which might be made upon it by his opposition to the present motion to have a full and complete inquiry into that subject—not for the purpose of passing a slur on the Government, for it could not be impeached upon that occasion, being only in the position of other Go vernments? There had been an opposition got up against the present Administration such as few other Administrations had been pressed with. It was an op position of an anomalous character. The peculiar fea tures of the present opposition were, that by legislation on the subject of our commercial policy, that protection which was formerly given to the productions of the earth had been taken away, and therefore Gentle men on that (the Opposition) side of the House had been suddenly smitten with an extraordinary love of economy.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Those Honourable Gentlemen found, and he was delighted to observe it, that the system which had so long prevailed ought to be discontinued, and then said that as there was no protection for them there should no longer be protection for anybody el.e.—(Hear, and laughter.) But the people of England were a generous people, and he would try the question in the way in which the House was called upon to try it in the case of the hard-working men in our public offices.—(Hear, hear.) Men in high stations were generally working men. The Honourable Gentlemen on the Treasury benches at the opposite side of the House received what were called large salaries. He did not think these gentleman were overpaid, although it might be considered an unpopular sentiment to give utterance to. He had heard it stated that the heads of many departments of the public service were overpaid. He confessed he did not think such was the case. Then, if they were not—if neither the heads were overpaid, nor the subordinates overpaid, it could only be in the number of persona employed that the al leged extravagance existed, and the required reductions made. H. thought the Noble Lord would do well, there tore, in permitting that inquiry to take place. The Go vernment had an intere-t in that in which the interests of the country were concerned; and therefore he consi dered it would have been better for the Government not to have resisted the motion. When, therefore, he and his friend the Hon. Member for Montrose went out into the lobbies upon that division, they were not voting in opposition to the present Government, but merely f r an inquiry as to whether the service of the State was per formed at a rate which the State ought not to pay. He again reiterated his impression that the Government ought not to have resisted an inquiry into that matter. Why should not an inquiry take place now? Why should they have such a subterfuge with respect to it as the moving of the previous question? The Noble Lord conceived that the present was an inconvenient erne for such an inquiry (i‘ No, no," from the Govern ment benches.) He should read the ordinary forms of the House its the manner in which they were generally taken. It was said that this was not the proper time to entertain the subject, when the previous question was moved in answer to the motion before them. Now he would like to know could there be a better time than the present to entertain the subject before them? In what state was the country? It was in circumstances of varied transi tions—with a new commercial policy instituted, and the prices of the ordinary necessaries of life greatly fallen. — (Hear.) No man could expect anything on the part of the country but an acquiescence in the determinations of that House.—(Hear, hear.) lie could conceive, then, no combination of circumstances more favourable than the present for such an inquiry, nor could he fancy any thing more impolitic than the opposition offered on the part of the Government to that motion. He believed the people of this country would be most generous in their payment of their deserving public servants, if only made aware that good and efficient services had been rendered.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think there was one inteliigent working man in the empire, who got his bread by the labmir of his own hands, who would not aid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in paying those who did efficient service for the State. He would oppose the motion of the Government by which that question would be avoided, because he thought the people of this country had a right to have that question settled now.—(Hear, hear.) Sir R. PEEL and some other Hon. Members rose to gether. There were loud calls for the former, and the rest having given way, the Right Hon. Baronet pro ceeded to say that he agreed with so much of what had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member who had just addressed the House, but particularly with regard to the services of those occupying subordinate places in the offices of the state, and the obligation due from the pub lic to them for the fidelity and integrity with which their service were performed, that he was surprised, agreeing with so much that had been said, he should come to a different conclusion from that at which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had arrived.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir H. Peel), however, put a different construction, on he intention-of the motion of. the Honourable Member for Oxfardehire, and the manner in which it had been met, namely, by moving the previous question, from that construction put upon them by the Hon. and Learned Member who had just spoken. He did not understand the Honourable Member's motion as one asserting that an inquiry should be instituted into the salaries of all the chief offices of the State—into the diplomatic and judicial departments of the country. He did not think the Hon. Gentleman's object was t lead to a Par liamentary investigation into those matters ; but he rather inferred that the Hon. Gentleman's resolution went to impose on the Government that duty sought.to be imposed on it by the motion introduced a short time since by the H m. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), that the Government should be the party to make the necessary reductions, and . to introduce a scheme for that purpose to the House, showing where reductions were possible. (Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member who last addressed the House said that the motion embodied a truism, and, therefore, ought to he agreed to. Now be (Sir R. Peel) apprehended that a great many truisms had been introduced from time to time jets that House which ought not to be acquiesced iti.—(Hear, and laughter.) If the doctrine of the lion, and Learned Gentleman were correct, every motion which implied a truism ought to be assented to. Now he (Sir H. Peel) thought the House of Commons ought not to vote for truisms unless they had a practical effect. —(Hear.) He considered the justification of the present resolution interfered with the ordinary functions of the Ex cutive Government, and it ought not, therefore, to be agreed to, unless founded upon some act done, or was calculated to effect some direct object. He did not think the motion was brought for ward in a bone fide spirit, and that it was calculated to tend to the impression that great reductions could be made in the salaries of public officers without retrenching those which were not suffi ciently paid. It was because he could not continue that delusion that he voted as he intended to do. What he said vas, let every inquiry be made by those authorities entitled to do so. W hen, therefore, he voted for the previous question, he did not mean to convey that the present was not a proper time to consider what reduction might be male in every department of the public service. The Hon. Gentleman, in alluding to a speech of his in 1845, did not correctly state the substance of what had been quitted as his observations. He (Sir H. Peel) had not laid down the position that unless the great naval aid military establishments were reduced, no diminution could take place ill the public expenditure. He had said that there was a general impression, that on the whole t f the expenditure there could be a reduction. —(Hear, hear.) That expenditure had amounted to 48 000,0001.; but it was a great delusion on the,part of the public to suppose that a reduction could take place to the extent that bad beea mentioned. He had stated that the necessary expenditure amounted to 35,000,000/ e and that the utmost that could be dealt with was 13,000 0001. He had not implied that any re duction could be made in the civil establishments. He , had said that he thought it would be art e:roaeous ex. pectation on the pert of the aublic if they were ied to suppose that any ;:;teat r<lic f could be aff..rd.A from to reduehon of: the salaries in crtestion. With respect to the chanqes ma is in the excise duties, t.e dot es on glasF, aai the auction had been said t'tat the expectstons he had tue2;ested had not been fulfilled. lie•hegged to say he thought that his anticipations in these matters had been to a great extent borne out, for. the abolition of the glass duties and auction duties had enabled them to eff7et a considerable saving in their establishments. By a return made in 1346 it would be found that every anticipation which he had entertained had been fulfilled. HI- had stated that he thought the reduction of those duties would afford a great oppor tunity of diminishing the establishments which they were then obliged to keep up. And what was the result? Why, no less than 450 persons had been discontinued in the particular departments alluded to, and a saving of no less than 51,0001., had been effected for the country. That did not show that the expecta tions which he haul held out were not fulfilled. That the Government desired to maintain those offices eluded to for the purpose of patronage he thought was es en tirely uhf iundel as it eves unjust to accuse them of keep ing up the army aid navy in order to lied pl set, for the younger breaches of tho nobility. So far from wishing to increase the expea ei of the Treasury dep trtment, hs thought every Chancellor of the Exchequer would be most anxious to make as ma'ty reductions as he colitis Having heard of the arnouut of the relitf voluntarily made by the Government, and having had proof of their desire to carry out all fair retrenchments, he did not de sire to imply the sort of reflection upon them which taut motion would be likely to cast. He thought the Government had given proefs of their desire to reduce every expense which might be reduced. The present motion had no reference to the salaries of great offices. fie could confirm from long personal experience all that had been said in justification and approbation of the conduct of those who filled the offices of Government in the public department of the State. He would ask the House to look to the changes which took place with respect to those public departments. Suppose a new Government came into power, how much must they not depend, for a certain time, on the knowledge and experience of those who filled responsible situations in public offices?—(Hear, hear.) Let them take the case, for instance, of the late Mr. Brookbanks.—(Hear.) Did not every Chancellor of the Exchequer who bad ever come into office know how much he ought to rely on the experience and knowledge of a gentleman like that?—(Hear.) Let them go through all the public offices—it would be found .to be the same. An Hon. Gentleman had said that the rule now, of all the public offices was increased work and diminished pay. And certainly if the number of- papers 'now passing through the Treasury were compared with that of, twenty years since, it would be admitted that the duties there bad more than doubled. It had been said -that the officials there did not work enough—that they did nothing at night ; and several allegations of that kind had been made. He would rt,k the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether the ser vices of the gentlemen in the public departments with which he was conversant were not always available at all hours, and whether they had not always cheerfully given their assistance whenever called upon by their superiors.—(Hear, hear.) What was the posi tion in that public department? A young man was placed there for two or three years on a small salary, not calculated to meet his expenses, and after some years of service he received an allowance of 2001. per annum. Now it was not the amount of labour which was to be considered so much as the amount of trust reposed in those parties.—(Hear, hear.) The Secretaries of State could not discharge their duties without entrusting most important state secrets to many individuals not in the pos session of more than 5004 a year.—(Hear.) It was not, then, the quantity of labour that was to be borne in remembrance so much as the great extent of honourable confidence reposed in such men—(Hear, hear)—and he thought it would be most injurious to the public interests of the country to undervalue or underrate the services of those who, if they had not the fortunes had at least the feelings of gentlemen. For his part, be had great pleasure in bear ing his testimony to the efficiency and fidelity of those who filled the subordinate offices of our public service. —(Hear.) They were worthy of great trust. He had heard in other countries of means existing for acquiring a knowledge of important secrets and documents; but he had never known an instance in this country of any such imputation on the honour of a public man even in the humblest station.—(Hear, hear.) When he had the honour of filling the office of First Lord of the Tree sury, he had been allowed 3001. a y ear each for the sa - lades of two private secretaries. Of course he was obliged to take those gentleme n from the Treasury and he could say that if they had 10,000/. a year they could not perform their duties with more zeal, fidelity, and efficiency than they had done.—(Hear, hear.) Now if the present motion meant anything, it meant that there ought to be a revision of the salaries of such men as these; and he felt bound to oppose it, because he thought it would inflict a wound on men to whom the public were under great obligations. He admitted that in foraging new establishments it was a fair con sideration to be taken into account that the prices of provisions were lower now than they had been formerly; but in considering the case of those who had spent some 20 years or more in the public service, he did not think that was a matter which ought to be taken into account just now. A Committee had already been appointed for inquiring into the salaries of the higher class of pub lic officer=, with a view to ascertain whether or not it was advisable that those salaries should be reduced. Now he should state his opinion upon that subject with out any hesitation. His opinion was, that those who filled the highest offices of the state in this country did not receive an amount of remuneration in the slightest degree greater than that—he would not s ay to which they were entitled—but than that which the public interest required should be s cached to the situations which they held. While he enter t Lined that opinion, he also believed that those who fille 1 subordinate offices iu the state were at least equ ally entith d to consideration and protection; and with that conviction he should vote for the motion welch implied that the sense of the House ought not to be taken on the proposal of the lion. Member for Ox fordshite.—(Eiettr, hear.) Mr. COBDEN said that the only argument he had heard advanced in favour of the motion then under their consideration was, that the s a laries of public officers should be reduced in proportion to the reduction which had of late years taken place in the price of commodities of every description. Now, if he were to admit the va lidity of that argument, he should be a party to a ,ge neral reduction of wages in this country—(Hear, hear) —for that would naturally be regarded as a war on w by a sweeping vote of that House—first, because be thought ages ewoobujiedctbed be impracticable, arty proposed reduction of wages it p racticable, and next, because he believed that no g r ound had been shown for such a re duction. It had been stated by the Hon. Member f Oxfordshire, that since the years 1828 and 1829 there had been a general reduction in the prices of articles of consumption in this country. The lion. Gentleman had calculated that reduction tat from 23 to 25 per cent.; and he had argued that there ought to be a proportionate reduction in the amount of wages. But he (Mr. Cob den) did not see that that consequence necessarily fol lowed from those premises. There might have been a reduction in the price of commodities in consequence of improvements in the mode . of producing them; ironmongery might be cheaper in consequence of the discovery of the hot- blast, and corn might be cheaper in consequence of the employment of guano acid the adoption of a system of e ffi cient d ra i nage. —(C r i es o f a H a ar, hear," and oh.") But it the cheapness was owing to discoveries in science, why, he should ask, ought not the working classes as well as all other mem bers of the community to be benefited by their introduc tion? Hon. Gentlemen opposite spoke as it all classes in the country had of late years suffered reductions in their incomes. But he denied that that had been the case. Ile denied that rents had been reduced.—(Hear, hear.) Us denied that as a general rule there had of late years been a reduction of rents in England. In the north o f England he [eight say there had been no such reduc tion, and he did not, anticipate a re duction. But so far was it from. being true, that a reduction of prices-neces sarily l e d to a reduction of wages, that .he main tained the tendency was the very reverse. The re duction o f price led to uu increased demand, and the increased demand produced a tendency to an advance of wages. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to be ignorant of the fact that there had of late bears exis • ted a general tendency to an advance of wages in this country. But he could say, without fear of con tradiction, that during the recent diminution of the prices of commodities, there had existed a, tendency to an in crease of wages among the very persons by whom the commodities had been produced. Among the operathes in Leicester and in Nottingham, there had of late been,a succession of strikes, and an increase of wages unknown 1 , for fitly years before.—(Hear, hear.) How, then, could Hon. Gentlemen o pposite come forward and say that the country was in such a state of distress that the wages of persons employed by the Goverment should be reduced? They might as well tell him that the wages of the agri cultural labourers had been reduced.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he could say that for the last fifty years agricultu ral labourers had been placed in a diff:rent position from any other class of labourers in this country. They bed, during the whole of that p eriod, been reduced to such a state that their wages only enabled them to obtain a scanty subsistence for themselves and their families. That he called the slavery state of wages, lie did not blame Hon. Gentlemen opposite for that—it had been a general rule in this country during the last fifty years. When the price of food rose, the wages of the agricul tural labourers were raised in proportion; and when the price of food fell, the wages of those labourers were re duced in proportion; so that they were never able to purchase more than a certain limited quantity of food. But even in the agricultural districts he maintained that, notwithstanding some parisl reduction of money wages, the labourers and their families had been, on t h e who l e, better fed since food had been at a moderate price .than in the year 1847—the boasted year of agricultural pros perity.—(Hear, hear.) lie said that the reduced price of commodities afforded no reason whatever why the House should pass a sweeping resolution calling on the Government to enter on a general reduction of the wages of labour. Let them look to the position of clerks in governmeat offices. Were Hon. Gentlemen op posite aware of the number of those clerks who re c ived salaties less in a mount than the wages paid to many skilled artisans ?—(Hear, hear.) Ile fund from a pamphlet put forward by the civil empl o ye, themselves on a different question from that then under the consi deration of the House, that among upwards of 13,000 Government clerks, upwards of 8,000 were receiving under 1001. a year.— (Hear, hear.) Did Hon. Gentle men opposite propose that the salaries of those clerks should be reduced?--(Hear, hear.) He agreed with those who thought that among a large proportion of the civil servants of the Government the salaries were not excessively high. He also thought that they would have a better chance of reducing their expenditure by dimi nishing the number of the public servants than b.. taileig the salaries of those servants. What be objected to in the motion of the Hon. Number was, that the me tiers did not allude to the possibility of reducing the number of the public servants, but dwelt only on the reduetioa of their to ti arie9. The lion. Gentleman and his party had supported the motion in a way which al most led him (Me. Cobden) tp infer that there was a concealed sting e in the resolution, and that it was meant as a retaliation f in the price of .CAlrtilia C3!.11.• UlOditieS.—(Elear.) lie had heard with much satisfac tion the speech made that evening by his Hm. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume); and it certainly appeared to him that everything in that speech had gone against the motion of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire. His Hon. Friead had said that the wages and the sala ries of persons employed in the public offiees wore not in general excessive, while ho added that those persona might be reduced in number. But the lion. Member for Oxfordshire had lost sight of all that, and had only pro posed a sws °ping reduction of salaries. The Hon. Mem ber and a 'other lion. Gentleman who followed him stewed to have gone out of their way for the purpose of at a -king him for having stated that the best mod , ' o' reducing the national expenditure would be by effectinx a reluction in our armaments. The Hon. Gentle/nat. ;ep e esred t o think that he (Mr. Cobden) heal said that no reduction could be made except in our armaments. But what he ha f said in 1848, and what he then repealed, was, that no material reduction could be made in our expenditure—no reduction such as would be felt at the fireside of every family in the country if that costly item, our military establishment, was to remain untouched. What were the reductions which had been effected since he had made that stet -went? Why, he had found that in the year 1848 49 the expenses of our military establishments, including the expense of the Kafir war, had amounted to 18,700,0001., while the whole of the estimates of the present year, for the army, the navy, and the ordnance, amounted to only 14,300,0001. That fact, he thought, afforded a strong justification of the statement he had made in the year 1848. Ho believed that a considerable reduction in the national expenditure might be effected by a change in our system of pensions end superannuation allowances. He did not see why there should be a superannuation allowance for any civil servant. The case of such a person was totally different from that of a man who had had his limbs shattered in the military service. He did not see why any civil servant who, during 30 or 40 years, had been in the receipt of a good salary, should have a claim on the country for a pension during the remainder of his life. Reference had been made to the Select Committee which had been appointed the other day to inquire into .the salaries of the higher class of public officials. He had voted for that Committee, althought it had been opposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose. His Hon. Friend said he did not see any use in a Committee. But he (Mr. Cobden) could not agree with him upon that point. The Committee of the import duties, for which his Hon. Friend himself had moved, had done more than any other to carry free trade. And, again, he believed that the. Committee on the African squadron would ulti mately lead to the removal of the African blockade. The report of a Committee might not by itself be i productive of any important result; but the evidence brought before a Committee often influenced public opinion to a very material extent. He felt great regret in differing upon that occasion from his lion. Friend the Member for Montrose, whose labours in the cause of economy no one could doubt or mistrust. But it appeared to him (Mr. Cobden) that upon that question his Hon. Friend had made a speech upon one side, whiie he was about to vote upon the other. For his part he objected to are duction of the salaries of the humbler class of Govern ment clerks; he objected to the reasons given for that reduction; he did not wish to see blame cast upon free trade by making it the pretext for curtailing the emolu ments of useful public officials. He did not wish to make it appear that this country was less able at present than it had been before the adoption of free trade to pay those who were engaged in its service; he did not wish to see any class excluded from the benefits which free trade was, in his belief, calculated to confer; and he should then fore give his vote against the motion of the Hon. Member for OxfOrdshire.—(Hear, bear.) Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND expressed his surprise that so profound a political economist as the Honourable Member for the West Riding should have referred to the case of the agricultural labourer in the way he had done. The Honourable Member ought to be aware that the case of the agricultural labourer was a peculiar one, i s(i n ena i e m dmei e u v r m i td, ou c hab f el ea w rl a .aa t b e oaw s uTrh b rehee e er l r o tseh w ri e w e h e i u c h r a i h t e w s i e impossible alsobecause the effect of the poor-law was to prescribe for did p h to a i m i d g e a o et . in o — t was at th t b e e n o a w m a o g u e n s t criterionof appearedowf a wages he amount of wages which labourers, in general, earned. In many parishes, to be high, great numbers of persons were wholly unemployed, and, consequently, the amount of wages paid ought to be considered with reference to the whole population of the district.—(Hear, hear.) It really would be satisfactory if 'Ministers would have the kindness to declare, once and for all, whether the country bad gained or lost by their measures. To-night the House had been informed that the coun try had not gained a farthing; whereas, at the begin ning of the session, it was asserted that our gain amounted to not less than 90,000,000/.—(ltear, hear.) Perhaps the question was an open one with the Minis try, and they had not yet arrived at any satisfactory con clusion with respect to it. His reason for thinking it just and politic to reduce salaries rather than t i dimi nish the number of persons employed was this:—There had taken place a general reduction of the prices of ar ticles of comumption—a reduction brought about not by any partial cause, but the result of a system in which Ministars and gentlemen opposite were now triumph ing.—(Hear, bear.) Man, like all animals, was grega rious, and tnere were only two ways of moving grega rious herds—you must attract them by the clover in trent, or impel them by the goad behind. Now, he was for a strong government; he cared not whether it wore monarchical. constitutional, republican, or any thing else.—(Laughter.) Governments in this coun try bad bean strong in post years, by bribing the boroughtnongera—by bribing the Lord Lonsdalos.— [A Member immediatOy behind Mr. Drummond here uttered an exclamation which Caused considerable laughter.] It was unfortunate that the Honourable Member should have interrupted him in the midst of a compound sub stantive.—(A laugh.) He was saying that former Ad ministrations found it necessary to bribe the borough mongers, in order that they might be able to carry on the government, and now Ministers must the bribe financial reformers for the same purpose. The great lords and the aristocracy, it seemed, had a monopoly of the army, and did not want commissionersthips and smaller offices; but the financial reformers did want them for their friends and relatives—(Hear, and laughter)—and therefore there would be plenty of speeches from those gentlemen out of doors in favour of retrenchment and economy, whilst, in that House, they would vote only in favour of impracticable propositions, and when a practical pro positiotedike the present, happened to be brought for ward, they would be all found voting with Ministers against it.—(Hear.) Mr. WOOD said, that free trade had had the happy effect of making, not only the Hon. Member ,for Ox fordshire, but the constituents whom he so able repre sented, economists; for a farmers' club established in Oxfordshire for the avowed object of maintaining agri cultural protection had not long since dissolved itself, the farmers declaring that the question of protection was at end. The present motion was not so rough and rude in its form as that proposed by the same Hon. Member last year,'Which contemplated the reduction of all salaries to the extent of 10 per cent. The Right Hen. Member for Stamford made an excellent speech against the lion. Member's motion last session, in the course of which he showed that out of 23,000 persons employed in the civil service of the Government, 20,000 had incomes under TOOL a year. It was therefore evident that the reduc tion proposed lay the MM. Member would chiefly apply to persons in receipt of very moderate incomes. Persons in the civil service of the Government were very far from being extravagantly paid. It came within his own knowledge that gentlemen who had started from the Universities with him and entered into Government offices in preference to professions were now, atter manryears service, in the receipt of only 2001. oe. 3004 a year. Leokinsat the ominous intioduction of. the word " and arguments by which it had been supported, the country would look upon its adeption by the House as a declaration that wages must be reduced in consequence of the adoption of free trade, And, under these circumstances, be felt bound to vote against the resolution. Mr. DISRAELI—eThere was. one thing at least upon which the House and the country were agreed, notwith standing some delicately-toned dissentient murmurs which had been breathed that evening, namely, that the pressure of taxation on the country was excessive.— (Hear, hear.) . From all classes of the community, from all parties in the State, from every part of the kingdom, the declaration was heard that retrenchment was not only desirable but necessary.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for the West Riding and his friends had t %ken a leading part'in encouraging the cry for retrenchment. They announced that a vast measure of reduction of the public expenditure was absolutely necessary, and, to do the Hon. Member fer the West Riding justice, it must be admitted that hope sooner entered the House after the recess than he proposed a resolution to which the epithet "sweep ing.' which it now appeared the Hon. Gentleman die liked, was felicitously applicable.—(Hear, and laughtele) There could be no doubt, also, that amongst another. class with which the Hon. Member for the West Riding was not very closely connected, although be was psi . - tially so—namely, the agricultural class, there existeda sincere conviction that the the public burdens to which They were subjected were of a very grie vous character. question, then, naturally occurred—what was the cause of this?—how did it happen that in 1849-50 a country w t it h e i c e s ees Pdwae 1 , v i i h t a i t ° d: 2 1 : 13 U a a r d p and (as was'alleged) so p ros p erin g , should be genious gr r sinehstogtsl whoseelyy increased, emeaetniurefealoatut erd w e ,s h w o wh s e eerse c e a s p eo i e t im a n l ... , ,pervaded by a general feeling of uneasiness, and that all classes In it should combine to tell the Legislature that their burdens were not only grievous but intolerable?— (Chedrs.) During several years the Legislature had been engaged .in reducing that class of taxation which pressed most sensibly on the springs of industry. For many years past million after million of taxes had been removed from the shoulders that class with which the Hon. Member for the West Riding was connected.—(Hoar, hear.) Nearly 9,000,0001. o f taxation had been remitted, the object of that remis sion being to make the burden of imposts more easily borne by the favoured class, and when all that had been done the Hon. Member for the West Riding and his friends came to Parliament and said, " Only repeal the corn-laws and we will beat the world." Well, the corn laws wererepealed, but the world was not yet vanquished. —(Cheers.) This being the state of affairs, the Hon. Member for the West Riding, and his friends, who, out of doors were proud of being thought the leaders of what they called a new movement for the reduction of ex penditure and taxation, had conducted themselves in the dHouse that evening as if they were so many Chancellors of the Exchequer, and as if it was their business to paint in rosy hues the prospering fortunes of a flourishing community.—(Cheers and laughter.) In the meantime whilst the lion. Members and his friends tv,T re claiming credit for getting up a now agitation, a change had come over the fortunes of the classes with which they who sat on that (the Opysition) side of the Howe were con nefted. They found that in consequence of their di minished means they were u",n4l2le_ to. poet _lho char ges which the Legislature had imposed on them, and Viev naturally sought relief in a . legitimate way. Thu reduc tion of expenditure, as leading to a reduction of taxation, was the means of relief which first suggested itself'. In accordance with that sentiment, they (the Opposition) had proposed and supported various propositions. They (the Protectionists) had been subjected to imputations from lion. Gentlemen, some of whom we:e so distin guished as to occupy seats on the Treasury beach. He did not refer, of course, t ► those unfounded statements which, in an excited to quoque, were excusable at a late'' hour of the night in a nebate. But.when the Noble Lord, because they had given votes' the objeJt and eflczt of which were to remove burdens from the community, barged them with the intenti )ti of breaking faidi with the public creditor and destroying the finance% of the country, he made an imputation which was little melee eised by facts, and had supported it by an allegation which was purely imaginary—viz , that he and the g. n denim) who usually acted with him had voted tor the repeal of the window tax. Now he maintained that th , y on that side of the House had given no votes for the re mission of taxation . which hero not authors d by the state of the public flounces; neither had they riven any without a due consideration of the claims .f tee public creditor. But he admitted that their votes oad also been guided by a duo consideration to the claims of theirsuffering constituents. The Tory party were now charged by the Hon. and Learned Gentlereaa the Member for Sheffield with "new-born zeal fur econe nay ." The advocacy of economy had ken considered by that Hun. and Learned Gentleman as something fo reign to the nature of their great political connexion. He (Mr. Disraeli) would like to know what great finan cial reductions had been made in this country in modern times except by the Tory party.—(Cheers.) He did not refer to times far remote, but if Hon. Gentlemen would run their eye over the history of this country from the period atter the independence of the United States up to the passing of the Reform Bill, they would find that every great measure of public economy and • financial reform had been effected by the Tory party. — (Ironical cheers.) Why, what did they do when they passed the Reform Bill? They destroyed that Govern ment which they were now obliged to bring forward at the model Government of political frugality.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburu), who I was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, might look back upon his career as one which was not at all common in our timas—a career in the course of which he had twice effected a great reduction in the interest paid for the national debt. Yet the House had just been told of " the new-born zeal" of the Tory party.—(Hear, hear.) The gentlemen who passed, or who were the creatures of the Reform Bill, had produced a Parliamentary Go vernment which the Hon. Member for Montrose knew, with a heavy heart, had produced the greatest financial disasters to the country; and the Hon.-Gentleman, no doubt, looked back with satisfaction to the time when he found more economy in an unreformed Parliament• than had ever been effected by a reformed Parliament. Those gentlemen who had received their education in reform and financial associations, and who did not condescend to look into. the history of their country beyond a few years back, now , came forward and an nounced that they could not support a motion which had public economy for its object, because it had originated in the new-born zeal'of the Tory party I What was the motion of his Hon.• Friend? It was a motion in perfect accordance with many Parliamentary precedents —in perfect accordance with many mo tions which had been made by Members of the Tory party within the last fifty years. It was much more than that: it was a motion in perfect ac cordance with the exigencies of the times.—( Hear, hear.) That motion, however, had encountered the aeticipated opposition of many eminent individuals. It had been opposed,. of course, by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who at the beginning ( f the' session—only a few weeks ago—announced that prices had fallen below the mark which he had antici pated, and who had the honourable courage to confess that he trusted a rise would soon take place, but who had that night vindicated his opposition to the motion by his researches into the books of the Marylebone Vestry, which proved that prices had zisen. That was the most important part of the statistical information of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) Then came the oppo sition of a still more important party—that of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member fur l'arnworth; and cer tainly, as far as his observations went, they were quite unanswerable, because the theatre on which the !Light Honourable Gentleman had played was of a li mited, although of a classical character—it tt as con fined to Downing-street. One would have supposed from the observations of the Right Honourable Gen tleman, that the subject of the motion of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire was to curtail the salaries of those mysterious and rare individuals who were virtually the Government of the country. The Right Hon. Gee tleman had referred to the late Mr. Brooksba'ik, as if they were about to invade the innermost sanctuary of Downing-street, and to deprive gentlemen who dis charged responsible and important duties, and were en trusted with most important secrets, of the rewards which they had so dearly won. The Right Hun. Gentleman had argut.d the whole case as if they were merely deal ing with some 100,0001. or 200,0001. a yeer. Was that the case? On the contrary, had not the Hue. Member fir Oxtordehire, in his ingenious and thoroughly trust- worthy argument, shown that they would have to deal with an amount of not less than 7,500,0001.? Now, did the observations of the Right lion. Gentleman apply to that theme?—(llear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman had drawn a most interesting picture of himself, over whelmed with the cares of Et,ite, and auppuriel (.:11 each side by a pr.vate stcrctary—:he one with 3001. a year, and the oilier with 1501. Now, what would have nie said if L ird Hardinge, after one of his great victories, had written home a dispatch, in which he atatad that in the thick of the fight he had been supported by two aides-de-camp, the one an ensign and the other alien tenant—that they were men in whom he had greatly trusted, and to the faithful fulfilment of whose arduous duties he was much indebted, that they had almost sa crificed, and hat certainly hazarded their lives in that great victory, but that he had a most paintul feeling when he remembered that one of them had only 300/. and the other only 1501. a year?—(Cries of " Oh, oh !" and " Hear, hear.") He maiatained that the cases were quite parallel. But he would ask, did a young man who desired the post of privets . ° secretary to a Minister of State look to the immediate wages be received ? No: he looked to the immediate reward of the confidence of his chief, and to the future rewards which were open to him. That, therefore, was an amiable bat ad captandum answer,which had nothing whntever.te do with the motion before the House. After the Right Hon. Gentleman followed the Hon. Member for the West Ridtug. The Noble Lord the other night seemed a little angry with him and soma of his friends for having gone into the same lobby with the Hots. Member for the West Riding and his friends. lie seemed to think there was sonic thine very dangerous in being connected with such' allies. The Noble Lord during his varied career had had great experience; and ono would have supposed he would have been the last person to find fault with such " compact alliances."—(llear, hear.) But the Noble Lord need have no serious fears on the subject. Those votes had already effected a salutary purpose. The House had that night had a frank avowal from the great leader of the Financial Reform Association that a proposition of " a sweeping nature"—never mind his reasons—should not receive his support.—(Hear. hear, and laughter.) That was something which the Protec tionists nad effected, and as there would necessarily be great anxiety felt by her. Majesty's Ministers to advent et public business, it would be gratifying to them to find that there was now not the shghtest fear that the " sweeping motions" which used to occupy the notice book, turd pro crastinate the termination of the session—such as the motions for the repeal of taxes, the exteation of the fran chise, and the like—would be ever again brought forward by HOD. Gentlemen opposite because they (the Protec tionists) had established this great political truth, that when a liberal motion was proposed it bed occa sionally the chance of being carri ed. (Cheers, and , groat laughter.) They were .nowreaping returns the rapid results of their tactics, and financial had that night received a fatal blow. future,ln zeal" of . sincere financial reformers must trust t o _ar "the new-burn that party who for the last e ( ( 3 ,. sevHeyy,tra had been la hear.) The pro- . bouring to effect that bet position of his Hon. Fr iend, then, was to ask the House to consider whether they could not effect a retrench mene with regard to some 7,500,0001. Who doubted that they could ? But the Government said, " Leave it to us ; wo will,do it." But the Protectionists had of fered to leave it to them, and instead of accepting the offer the Government had appointed et a Committee.— (Hear, hear.) He observed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer cheered. The Right Hon. Gentleman was, no doubt, glad to get rid of the question by transferring t h e responsibility of Ministers to a Committee. flip Chancellor of the Exchequer denied having cheered.] The Right Hon. Gentleman's voice was too agreeable to him, it was impossible to mistake it.— (Laughter.) He assured Honourable Gentlemen who ' had an abstract admiration of retrench ment, but who were afraid to vote for it, • that it was as disagreeable to him as to theni 'to cut down sala ries ; but had not society arrived at such a state in England that they were forced to take that step? That was the question, and that night they would be made to answer et.—(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been m'ide to the dreadful position of a clerk with 1001. a year having 10 or 20 per cent. taken from him; but was his position worse than that of the labourer?—(liesr, hear.) The Hon. Member for the West Riding said ho would not vote fur the motion, although 'he admitted its abstract justice,' because it would be a condemnation 'of the new system. He would tell the lion. Gentleman that this was not a condemnation of the new system; but it was one of the consequences of it. Its condemnation would come in due season.—(Cheers.) But one of the restate of the new system was, that they were all obliged, in consequence of the increased burdens of the people, to examine the public expenditure of the cou ntry. Now, here was 7,500,0001. to begin with. . not want fle di !Ydanted this fairly to be understood out of doors. l them to run away with the sentimentality of the. Right and sup- Hon. Gentlemen, the Member for Taairren Lb, yerrsym f ll w an l d ar in d - - pose that they were dealing with a se significant sum distributed among. ing. He estimated working men. They were no suclhdth rohably lead to a that the motion, if carried, wou saving of 1,000,0001. per annum, and pernaps more, and those who would form a judgment upon their conduct that night with regard to that important question were hard-working men, who were suffering hardly. Th e House must not be • permitted to ride off from the eonia• QUttlall of their vote upon the sentimental desorkition of the position of the chief clerks and virtual Ministers o State in Dawning-street, nor up an the statement of the Hon. Member for the We.t th4t he wculd not vote for the motion because it would affect the wages of the country. Wag-s we:o &ready affectel, arid they bsiieved that there was no part of the eionmunity who would not in that respect be affected. Hon. Members might try to avoid the consequences of the motion, and to evade the responsibility w hich hung over their heads, but they could not evade it: No 'man in that House could evade it, and least of all those clamorous patriots who founded institutions and societies tor financial reform, who entered that House and pro posed, in unison with those institutions, impracticable propositions, and the moment they were brought to a point at which they must decide upon a definite sum, levied for a particular object, fled from the test. Neither the plea that the Government was in danger, and that wages would be affected, nor any other shadowy eubter fege that might suit their purpose that night, would pre vent them being condemned by the general v; ice of the country.—(Che ers.) He slid not know, aid he did not care what might he the causes of the univer:;ally knowledged distress which many Gentlemen had ri furred to. lie had his own opinion on the stkiict. Lk. 'hit Honourable Member fi , r Oxf , rdsliire, he did no; su; piee that it proeeetlei from one particular at's.. Ito had no doubt that an evil so complicate,', so gentr~l, aas occasioned by many ceusee; but he thouzbuthat it might be trac,d to one redominant cause, the coils' quences of which were injurious, and which would be ultimately more than injurioni.—(flear.) But, what he wanted to call the at:eution t f the House arid the coun try to was this, that the is suit was no longer ques. tioned. At firs', when they talked of dist' oss, they were told there was no distress, and that tt e county was prosperous. They were now told that it was true [hat there was very great distress, but that it was not occasioned by any legislative measure, but by railroads. Well, he asked, who was responsible for railroads?— (Rear.) Why, those great men who ought to be the guides of the House, their tutors in political instruction, and the guardians of the public conduct. Did they not stimulate railroads in that House?—(Cheers.) Did they not take the violent step of making the attendance on Railway Committees compulsory, in order that no time might be lost in forming competitive lines? Were not the young men of England admonished not to lose their time in making speeches, but to devote their time to Railway Committees? Was not that the advi.:e of great statesmen? Well, what was the conduct of the grt at middle class, who ought to be the governors and guides cf the country? It used to be said that the time was come when England was to be governed by a few great towns, but that was when shares were at a premium of 150 per cent. It was then that it was said there should be no House of Lords, and the House of Commons must be reconstructed. What had been the result of the superior energy, enter prise, and sagacity of the great middle class, especially in the great towns of the north of England? Why, it appeared that more than 100,000,000/. bad not only been lost in railroad speculations, but lost, it appeared, by not keeping accounts. And these were the' men who had been all over England denouncing the farmers, be cause they cultivated land without keeping accounts. — (Laughter.) Well, what was the predominant cause of that distress, to provide a remedy tor which he intended to support the motion of his Honourable Friend to night? He thought it was mainly occasioned by that legislation of 1846 which affected the interchange of the most important comwod.ties between different countries. —(Hear, hear.) He had, always been of that opinion, and be had always expressed that opinion. The Noble Lord had said to the Tory Tarty, " If such are your opinions, why don't you bring forward the question ? " Gentlemen on his side of the House were quite aware of their deficiences ; they were often reminded of them by the eminete, honourable, he might almost say illustrious persons about them ; they could not attempt to rival others in eloqueuce and poli tical sagacity and forethought, but at all events they were not weak enough to allow their cimpaigu to to chalked out for them by their opponents.--(Hear, hear, and laughter.) However, he would tell the Noble Lord very candidly why they did not bring forward the ques tion. They did not think it was a question to be settled in the House of Commons.--(Hear, hear.) They thought, that whatever the decision of the House upon it might be, it could not be satisfactory to the country. It scented incidental to human nature that wisdom was (rely to be acquired by adversity ; and when the country had arrived at that pitch of suf fering which should teach it the great lesson, he had no doubt the country would settle the question for itself, without troubling him or the Nobie Lord at all in the matter.—(Hear, h( ar.) Sure he was that no other settlement of it would be permanently satisfactory to the conetry.—(Hear, hear.) Whichever way the Howe might vote, the people out of doors would be dis satisfied. Even supposing a substantive motion for the retracing of their steps in commercial legislation were, as desired by the Noble Lord, proposed to an assembly ' pledged the other way, and even supposing it tarried, its proposers would not achieve a result which, es prudent men, they should desire to accomplish; because it was by slow degrees, by the salutary experience of suffer ing, that the various classes of the community must arrive at that charge which assui oily they would b)- and-bye arrive at.—(Hear, hear.) Before he sat down he would make one observation which he thought the Noble Lord would du well to reflect upon bi fore he again talked of ideas ef this kind coming under the head of a wildgoose chase. It seemed to be the convic- tion of the Noble Lord and his frisnde that the notion of a recurrence to the commercial system that had bt en abrogated was perfectly insensate, eqecially so in a caueoy where oe,ocenttic sympa.t.i(s so greatly pre vailed as, eery fortunately, they did -II i this country. kie would remind the Noble Lo: d th.:3 there was a na tion, a nation not svcand in power ev,u to our own greet and pilverful tcion, where the reaction so ridiculed had actually taken place; that nation, moreover, being one in which the democratic influence whs immensely more powcrtul even than it was in England; he Sii ke of it :e United States t f America.—(ileur, hear.) Before the NutAes Lord again told tlem that a recurrence to the com as, rcial code under which this country su long and so greatly prospered was a wild phantisma,• to be rejected by tvcry sane man, let him reflect that the phantasms was accepted in America.—(llear, hear.) In a House where there was such frequent eulogy of American in stitutions, and American conduct, and American in'el• tact, he might fairly expect that the admirers of Ameri can politics would in time also become admirers of Amer ricau economies. —(Hear, hear.) Ile fur one was not desirous that the great and inesitable reconstruction of our commercial system on principles favourable to native industry—not to the cosmopolitan interests, Ho elo quently and so sincerely advocated by the Gallant Colonel—should take place in any other way than in the United States, as the consequence, merely, of sharp experience, and under the influence of popular senti7 went.—(Chi CrB.) Lord J. RUSSELL said, that at that hour of the night he would endeavour to confine himself closely to the motion before the House. The Hon. Member for Oxfordshire proposed an address to her Majesty for a revision of all the salaries in every department of the public service, with a view to reduction. His first objec tion to the motion was that it was unjust.--(Hear, hear.) When he moved for a Committee in a f firmer session, he stated that the Government had made a revision of the department of Stamps and Taxes, and that many re ductions had been made in that department; to the amount of 250,000 L; he stated the number of persons who had been reduced in that department; and he stated likewise that with respect to offices belonging to the exe cutive Government a careful revision had been already made in several of them; that in the Home-office and in the Treasury very considerable le ductions had been made in the number of persons employed, and that all the other offices were to he subjected to similar reductions. —(Hear, hear.) He was surprised, therefore, to hear the Hon. Member for Montrose now making the statement that the Government refused all revision.—(Hear, hear.) He had, moreover, recently proposed a Committee to consider the official salaried of persona holding as ate in the two Houses, of judicial officers, and of the diplomatic establishment; and he would distinctly say that in the face of all the revision already effected, and of the revi sion going on, to propose an address to the Crown fir revision, as though no revision had taken place, was titre unjust imputation upon the Goverment, which had done so much, and which had manifested its readiness to do more..—(Hear, hear.) So far as to the nature of the mo tion of the Hun. Member for Oxfordshire, made, be it I poss ibl e s eeme extent t e e r i et st h a ide d h e t etbr heard determination te so i orsner to - f remarke d,pet%proceedtcdl y t 0 f r om a tt the after ut t thm h e e o st Gover nm e n tl revision and of reduction.—(hear , hear.) The only con elusion to be drawn from the lion. Gentleman's motion, littler such circumstances, was that he had no con fidence iu' the proposals of the Government, and that he conceived it to be the duty cf the Government to re sort to some other mode of revision.—(" Hear," from Ca Sibthorp.) The Hon. and Gallant Member, with his accustomed candour, accepted that interpretation. But the motion contained something more than this. It would be; in his opinion, an objectionable proposition did it merely extend to the Government of the day, but it further proposed to have an accurate revision of the salaries and wages in every department o f the pub lic service. Let him first advert to the salaries. Th is proposal as to salaries must be taken i n conj unction , with the motion which the Hon. Membe r for Uxtord o p u o . shire made last year, in conjuction with ( b )u or rtaioines Mem ber his in ws the a speech that evening, and in conjunetioe, too, w ith the declaration just made by te e for Buckinghamshire. that there had been a g reat TThe e reduc tion decl aration re fore there should be a proporti onable in the salaries reduction prices of the necessaries of life, and that the salaries of public officer s.—(lleac. hear.) He would sa y , at once, that the reduction s the Government had made different had gone on' an entirely principle.—(Hear, hear.) What they had done was this; —Whenever they found that more persons were employed than were wanted for the public service, they had reduced the number by supersa nouatio ns' and otherwise to th e necessary po i nt; but to' snake reductions according to the current price of necessaries of life would be, in hie opinion, unfair and unjust to that great body of persons who were employed in the public service. —(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Member fur Tamworth had said no more than what every person having experience in the public service would say, when he commended so highly the services of those gen tlemen who were permanently employed in the public departments. As to the comparison set up by the lion. Member for Buckinghamshire between those g( ntlemen and a geteral's aide-de-camp it was altogether futile, hear.) It was these gentlemen, in the permanent service of the various departments, who carried 011 the whole machinery of the government, the chiefs of which were liable to change with every re volution of opinion in or out of the House. It was es sential to the public service to have men of such expe rience and practised ability permanently in the public • departments; and he would venture to say that were the present Government to go out of office In consequence of any vote of the House or other circumstance, and Hon. Gentlemen opposite were to succeed them, they would. not be• in- difico a single- day before they - `7