The Sun. — London, England, 1850-03-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, % e els the proportion which those salaries bore to tie seen that on the termination of the war the natural price bar menu of gentlemen erectising among us at the of food would be the price mainteined in this country— oth,"'r (hear, hear.) Something lied been said the coupling together those . facts, I e could not b.- hew', not- Itsi g ., in At about the salaries I aid to the Ammiean withet inding the sitsmcions of the Right Lion. Gentle lien e But let the Howse r-collect what was the pest- man, that his lion, Fi iced. did not really mean, by .equi ,tiist t - Juoges. The judge In tf 9 l ' B' • ' - . the United Siates vocal phrases, to i,, gain an , f , civantine for any particular tow ho an rxiseedirnt,ly setsll saki V, anst at the are of opeohn up in . t h h corona„ th ial q :e-tioe. lie t , e , ohr...tn .„ .e to e t e was ditrnissee witrieut :lay pr. ,, idiot;, no eis -es ie-she e' of nit non 1 steno. awl he towel test :1.1, ,k,,,- Tit s ; I gorous his intellect might Mill centiuue to be. elution in favour I f economy n its ore that naturally les ettd ' e s pt of that system was, that a judge who had followed from his per raises. But he (Sir B. Peel)) Pell , 'n a supreme court /al frequently' been c an- would with for no better premise: than those laid down till gis s,? Practise as counsel before a successor l e ss di s t by hi s H en , F r i e nd in support of the principles adopted ete tee ttt% perhaps, on the beech thin he himself had ;in the year 1842 and in subsequent years. His Hon. titi t i t h tdean) That, surely, was not a pos'tion to i Friend hal r ecited th a t " whereas the p resent taxation ill thi s ts lion. F r i en d would-wish to reduce the judges 'of the country depresses all classes, and especially the (lll fises s en e 'l un trY• With regard to the salaries of public • labouring classes." Well, he (Sir R. Peel) said that the N o t i i, 4 h ad only toob 7 ierve that that was a question i legitiintte inference from that was that the House hed 4 go "? Could not in any way discuss, and upon which ' acte d mos t wisel y in the y ear 1842 and in subsequent. ti g h t Ill!' leave it to the House to decide as they y ears b y removin g restrictions on the supply of tooth, ante thi nk proper. But he would warn them not to and diminishing the taxes which pressed most heavily Zit i t !lehtly to disturb the arrangements on which on the labouring classes.—(llear, hear.) 11 . Tas not lisi c ial system wa s founded. Her Majesty's that a fair and legitimate inference ? His lion. t ,',' e g ets ',, he should observe, were not unmindful Friend proceeded to propose, that in the pre they t "eeessity of effecting every reduction which sent state of the taxation of the country, "it is the las e ' c li tT ld think reasonable in the rational expendi- opinion of this House that adequate means should be 4 411 es t - tis non. !F r i en d l ea d carried list year, by a tato a to reduce the expenditure of the Government." 4 ile ta il' 4 ,l o rity, Now he (Sir R. Peel) defied any man to draw . from a motion similar to that then under con bletiso n nt and imm e di a t e ly after the adoption of that these premises such a conclusion as the following, for in sttireela; , t he Lords of the Treasury had addressed a ! stance:—" Whereas the present taxation of the country "els,. to all the heads if public departments, stating depresses all classes, and especially the labouring classes, iti th, t ree this House is of opinion that it would be desirable to re '.4 desire to have all the eitimates prepared ~Nlet ti e meat rigid economy. He further found that vert to the principles of taxation which were in force 't,s o oo ,oo ° ", in the public expenditure to the amount o f before the year 1842, and to impose duties on the import : 1 1t t t (. had been effected within the last three years. of those raw materials on which the industry of the ",.°4t ,"ofessel that when he looked to the items of • labouring classes chiefly depends."—(Hear, hear.) Still he thought, would it be in the power (Ibis Hon. nhit ii Penditur e , as it tat present stood, he could see no 'less, 1 1 , 11 e i, It Y of reducing it t ) an extent sufficient to meet Friend to draw any such conclusion as the following nog t ,‘v! of his Hon. F r i en d. Ho presumed that his from those premises :—" Whereas the present taxation • cf the country depresses all classes, and especially the Nit oo r 'end could not mean to interfere with the into *ith th i ne national debt nor with the Civil Litt, nor I labouring classes, this House is of opinion that the taxes t ' t ittsl e e ° charge s •en the ' Consolidated Fund, with the , which were reduced, or repealed, in the year 1842, and i in subsequent )ears—natnelv, the taxes on corn, on h 'e e oe xc ePtion of the salaries of the judges • nor with ' meat, on live animals, on salt meat, on bacon, on cheese, t t l sCp restive service of the army navy ' and ord- I and on butter, shall be restored to their former amount." Alie which was guaranteed by Parl(ament , to former 1 / 4 ko iett s e ' d r vents. Now, the whole of those charges ! —(liear, hear.) It would be utterly impossible for his it tss iottil to 34 000 His nom Friend would, he t Hon. Friend to justify such a conclusion as that from feta t i ' provide for the maiut •nance of armaments for 1 his premises. No; that which his Hon. Friend meant Mh o - 1) ,,Ial defence. Even his lion. Friend the Member —and it was a fact—was that the taxation that remained °oo oen eat Riding of Yorkshire would leave a sum of pressed heavily on the productive industry and on the 'llte 4,/. to meet that charge; and that would give a comforts of the labouring classes, and that it was 'Intl:oat:1,000,00On Then there were the miscellaneous therefore desirable that all practicable economy should ,iletion mates ,000,0001. to 3 SOO 000/ in which some re- be introduced into the public expenditure. That he 1 7 , 41 4 - ot in oh ight be effected ' from ' time to time; but the believed to be the motion of his Hon. Friend, and that he believed to be his . view and the view of those Hon. )t a ti el m ‘ 4 , 11 t of all those items could not be much less . oild , 5 z , ,,47,000,0m. Under these circumstacices he j Gentlemen who might vote with him. He thought it I would be utterly impossible for those who merely wished ,r,e,,, "'en lion. Friend where he could find a margin t ort to "'en Sufficient to enable him to diminish taxa- I to bring to an issue the question of an adherence to, or an abandonment, of, our recent commercial policy, to mac te " , e et tent which would give any very sensible !'itlt a i n the industrious clastes of this country? He follow his Hon. Friend so far as any commercial ques tailthof j . (l that unless they were prepared to shake the tion was involved in his resolutions. He agreed with ti l i l less th " public creditor ° in the honour of that House, , the Hon. Gentleman who had seconded the motion, that tt ',Y h ati e Y meant to violate the engagements into which ' the merits of the commercial policy adoptel in this Ferry 0 entered with public servants, they cowl i not country of late years should be mainly tested by the eti at the • 'lid t e views of his Hon. Friend. But his Hon. answer to this question:—" Has the social condition of j, t h4 t th e n f ac i asked towards the conclusion of his speech the labouring classes in this country been improved by i 5 1:13 , iv artners should be allowed to employ their land l the adoption of the principles of free trade, or has it i l l , (1 1se as l they might think proper. and his Hon. Friend thereby been deteriorated—has, or has not, the command (llibi t i e sin g that p o i n t h a d part i cu l ar ly r e ferred to the of the labouring classes over the comforts and the t hat p, tin this c oun t r y t o pl an t tobacco. Now he necessaries of life been increased by the abolition of t ee, t Cratile) sh ou ld rem i n d t h e H ouse , i n th e fi rs t the legislative restrictions en the import of food?" hot le a at the duty on tobacco had last year produced The Honourable Gentleman said—and no doubt said 4 ago t han 4,400 0001 . ; and in the next place truly—that if they could prove to him that the adop j'htritin,,,l observe that before the Act prohibiting the tion of the principles of free trade had really added to t t ',De 4 7, i t if tobacco in this country had been passed in the comforts of the labouring classes, he should at once I ''' 6 1829 , it had been ascertained that tobacco could become a convert to those principles. The Honourable 11, 1 )rta r ! t r°sy n here without a protective duty to the Gentleman admitted . that if the result had been pro itt Co ett i amount of somewhere near 600 per cent. duced, no consideration could justify the continuance cf eilion, l e ttned that his Hon. Friend, in framing that that protection which he said was nscessary for the ii i lett t it at , not clearly and distinctly stated the views general benefit of the community. Well, he (Sir R. C o ale) - w ished to see carried into effect. He (Mr. F. Peel) thought that, so far as they could place any reli i:i'liori o e r n uld not see a way of either approving of that ance on the documents with eh i ich they had been fur telltd tr i p elf meeting it with a direct eisgative. It con- nished—so far as they could judge of the praseat ad N t 'llsei o l2 ess which he could not deny, but, taken in ministration of the poor-law, and cf the number of un tatted, i t i with the speeches by which it had been sun- employed poor—so far an they could form a judgment tl ts ti e ied to conclusions in which he could not con- ef the state of the rural districts—they had no right to k o tl ght jo the therefore ails the House not to b e infer that the comforts even of the agricultural classes ,lte t l tht he trap set for them by his Hon. Friend. He had been curtailed by the abolition of protection. He 110 ' t hie, 11 would well weigh their votes upon that oc- knew that in some parts of the country—and he deeply It t l ea sih . t e g atked them not to give their approval to a regretted the fact—great distress prevailed; but they th %eh l 'u , if carried, would spread doubt and dismay ntt all should not consider the agricultural classes only. The con• l et th at Parts of the country. He felt convinced dition of the gre tie mass of the working community was t t liati eo would be the result of their adoption of the the test by which that question should be tried. Speak- Old net l of his Hon. Friend; hut as he felt that be ing, then, not of the whole body of the working classes, ti! i gtee i t " e nY the Abstract truth of those resolutions, he but of tho agricultural labourers, he himself doubted b e ttio e il g at toineet the proposal by moving the previous win ther at this moment, after the abolition of protection, i ...rr, k . (Flea,-, hear.) there was net a greater command of all that was essential t elt g MA NGLES said that he hat the happiness of to the enjoyment of humble life than at the period of pro • "tout, - near net tection. The lion. Gentleman said that there was much zlibof his Hon. Friend who had 1 . 6 .qt ill' s up„, fo rward that motion, and as he had not last retrenchment. Why there had been great distress and a 1 4/4 la ce rtel a moticn very reaely resembling it, he demand for retrenchment at other periods, and those , a t p ti ; cr ten ask e d by his constituents why he had periods when protection existed to the utmost. Yet the e' l lioe s -411 'd a different course. He was, therefore, Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the recurrence of the . distress and demand was . an impeachment of the ; 5 4 t t 'dle - 4ot t i o take that opportunity of stating to th justice of the commercial principles which had cf late th'etillito 100 his Lion. Friend why he had not sup- years been adopted by this country. The Hon. Gen -I<i th e st year, and why he could not support him tleman would do well to consider whether or not it was 14'41 t o P r esent occasion. The reason was—and he to the operation of free trade that the present low prices t4ee, p a t,ate it without the slightest discourtesy to were attributable. In his (Sir R. Peel's) opinion it had ‘ i ttri e „ . 2 l end—th a t h e h a d no su ch reliance on his been conclusively shown in preceding discussions th a t tib e ° l 4lcl i o n : such reliance on his political consistency, there were other causes acting concurrently with the re -4e r Politi c n ee him to follow him upon that or upon any moval of restriction which had produced these low Ipti n „, `t al question.—(Elesr, hear, and laughter.) At pricen—(llearn hear)—that there were other MISTS ti t tli),...°C'eld some time since at the White Lion—(A now in operation, which would in a great measure ac -4,t itra oti 's Ron. Friend had taken great credit to Lim- count for the depreciation in agricultural prices. But k e dea r g the assembled agriculturists fur his having his Hon. Friend (Mr. Drummond) said that he insisted O l.""ter ford the motion of the Honourable upon it that free trade should he extended, and he ki t ,te „,, t he West Riding of Yorkshire for effecting again referred to the growth e f tobecce. To promote I t i'ing I I• i s"'"Inti01r in the national expenditure. At that the growth of tobacco in some parts of Ireland might be G o th at c h h e ad done him (Mr.. Mangles) . the honour to a benefit ; but he did not contend that a tax of 300 per te a ' trig, had voted with him upon that occa- cent. should be levied on foreign tobacco, and that ko h 'clenti; C onsequence was that he (Mr. Mangles) had the tobacco produced at home should be free of kf te ls'ttee e 'tPeetel that his Hon. Friend would have duty. Did he propose that home-grown tobacco tli'"ber f ."' similar motion brought forward by the Hon. should be subjected to excise regulations, and then het l itt ° g r the West Riding on Friday last. But al- be liable to pay the same duties as foreign tobacco ? ailing, 1 1 ;s t ail seen his lion. Friend in the House that He said he was no friend of protsction ; but that would f ltr e a PPea rt a d been much surprised to find that he had be protection to allow the growth of tobacco in this 1 4' the r 'e• the lobby, and that he had fled away country, and send it into the ma , ket free of duty, t lt tl dis iou v ision. That was ono reason why he was not whilst the grower of the foreign article was charged s ot tee pitied to follow his Hon. Friend, and why, with- 300 per cent. What he apprehended the Hon. Gentle atillslp i ng aLy disrespect to his Hon. Friend, he could man meant was, that legislative protection should be !kll e 2, l l4 3 ° l _, (3lt ing at that motion as one of those motions removed, but that as excise duty, correseonding to the ItV 4 fi g 'too. Friend the Member for Middlesex had customs duty, should be imposed. If so, then all he t, iss -s " in the pan" .• 0 0e ..e 0 w . . motions. He was prepared to (Sir U. Peel) could say was, that a smaller amount of ,lt i 'it% ,Ith his Hon. Friend as regarded the present benefit to the agricultural interest was never proposed.— Ii: kai cli the agricultural labourers in this country. (Hear, hear.) Then with regard to the hop duty, his i l ,l utae oe e. et )4 en. v . u that in the district from which he and Hon. Friend lived in a hop county, and on a fine August !t r kre ta mead came the great body of the agricultural evening it would no doubt be a picturesque scene to ett is is t th w a ere in - • • '•untaxed hops. a better condition at the present witness the labourers gathering Well, nt b ee an 4 they had been in before the corn-laws the Hon. Gentleman had great sympathy with the tt l eot t ,,,, r ePealed. Last Sunday ho had been in unfortunate labourer who was prevented from growing tl le t nale be of a labourer, who had not been his hops, but he wished the Bon. Gentleman would 41. e at himself,. his wife alone having been consider the position of others in less favoured pasts of A i , bran "the time.—(Laughter.) W e ll, but his the country, to whom a removal of the impediments upon liC h lvoi e , g"s) own lady had been there with him. growing hops would be of no advantage whatever. Did ‘e..r. told him that her husband was employed he thin, when he said that duties must be re-imposed Olt Latek, :,q' t eti tit i eh r, at Manor Farm, on wages of 12r. a upon corn, that to a man circumstanced as the Paisley qi N ;lsti the " added that with that sum they were Letter or Lancashire weaver it would be any satisfaction to k o , ear l ,. Y had forme r ly b ee n when her husband had he told, " You have permission to collect your hops— 't ,N th e tri g 1 5s• a week. The Hon. Baronet who had you may gather them from the hedge ; but it is neces ase am 1 i e s e , enement to the Address on the first night nary that you should pay a heavy duty upon your bacon, : 4 441t t aii s te 5 ci o i h had stated that & lied in Lincolnshire cheese, ' and corn? lam going to int . roduce . a prohibitory at il , . R a the m os t p er f ec t ma nner possible. But duty open the import of corn and live animals, and the the g ame t e ales) found that atrecent meeting held in compensation I offer you is permission to grow , hops it It nsig - ithout legislative interference." • No; that same prin t' tl t s y. Si Ire, in a district adjoining Lincolnshire, et ' el' r Q'• Robinson,Protectionist,had declared ii f r et _,.• . a ciple which made his Hon. Friend desire that the laho - urer 'ti t i,°(te t i",, L lenists whom he was addressing that he of Surrey and Sussex should be permitted t,) grow hops, te'llee ehe tne thistles so strong in some fields in that was eel - able of a mach larger exten)ion, and the labourer ,games ot u,,uci that he should have supposed they had would be much more benefited by getting his provisions it to e .or a fox-cover e t g tha . had it not been that they were et the lowest rate, than by giving him permission to l itl eam e t the foxes could not have broken through grow hops, and reviving the tax upon f cod. Ile looked 'e l ties) h' l sive cheers, and laughter.) He (Mr. upon his Hon. Friend's intention as a bonafide intention Co t , i ad no hesitation . (e l k, a, e , Hai in saying that the land in I to justify a resolution of the House in favour cf protec 4, Iner'e than be improved to an extent which t:ve duties. He could not vote for the motion of the it resent ) compea:ate for the redaction which Honourable Member for the W, st Riding (Mr. Cobden) le i e e. 'Yy„teaken place in tho puke of agricultural the other night, because he believed that in that mo '.rttit' t o n kr ew a case in which a tenant had been tion the recitals were not correct, that the principle fl'ia°l'd Paysaving 75 /. a year for a farm of 104 acres, but the which he assumed of bringing the expenditure down t Ot yc ' tl it e recently drained and otherwise im- Ito the amount of any particular year was a fallacious it t o „ lied t t ,, ert en let it to a man with abundant capital, principle, and that to attempt to carry it out would IlttOttreta'..• 3'ears, at the rate of 130/. a year. His ' teal to mischief. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to !ey °f Friend Friend had spoken in terms of great sym- him that the motion of his Hon. Friend was open le t tiii o the condition of the small landowners to many of the objections which were urged against It ° to e ° l lat e le,.; s a , rY• But he (Mr. Mangles) could under- that of Mr. Cobden s. They he th concurred in depre -41 Oa ', that in his part of the country the value eating taxation which pressed upon the labouring classes, ` ( ii h t t, , t eee v t r °Perty had increased 100 per cent. within and that in order to relieve them there should be a re (! t lt ,l 0 ,: 11 13% Great complaints of agricultural clis- duction of expenditure—Mr. Cobden said to the extent t tl tefi tl 3 l ; b e t "libt proceeded from different p a rts of the of 6,000,000/. or 7,000,000/., but his lion. Friend did not k l' t ect e e,_that could not be wondered at by any one who propose any specific sum; he simply declared that ade tl4l,s'plet4°o discouragin language held to the farmers (pate means should be adopted to reduce the expendi- , l ,"li ti riteri It of the Protectionist party. His Honour- tune of the country. He (Sir R. Peel) concurred with ,1 nt st ell s „"tnew how he (Mr. Mangles) had been de- him. He believed that adequate means should be 'ltt.."ii t h e y acs constituents—(Leughter)—for not having It ', th v6 N ,,, adopted for that purpose, but he would tell him from past e tie •at 411 s of that party. Be felt convinced, how- experience that if the House of Commons saw that the et 'tit th e • , 4 t , of agriculturists required was energy and Government seas impressed with the necessity of re i-1 tits s elf-reliance to enable them to meet the trenchment, and was proceeding gradually in the course ti lt, I. I ?arlestances in which they were placed. of retrenchment, he doubted whether upon the whole it 41:: tr tt i r , 42ll-4 said he should imitate the example of i wa s not better for the House of Commons to stand by take its own tit •iy t ` l ten who had preceded him, by stating as ! and permit the Government to . course, 5 41 3 he a eneral declarations of economy (I • Possibly could the grounds upon which he I rather than to make g . Re e 1 ,, Y gee,ti ti li , r "'s vote upon that occasion. The motion of I ! without pointing out the mode in which it was to be accomplished. Now he would tell his Hon. Friend that li t , °r tt Q l end might be considered either in a commer 1 he had no confidence in the persevering, reflecting, s y s - Ih t m an th e all ejai point of view. The Right Her. Gen- I (emetic economy of the House of Commons. He knew ei q tteiti e Secretary at War professed to consider that that House was very apt to have hot and cold fits of 'hat he knew. He , tyi l t, 3 : l was meant to imply opinions open commer_ saving.—(Hear, and a laugh.) 'I N 411 ti -cts r and that his Friend really intended knew that et one time the Route of Commons would be . i t 4 4, kri the Hon. 1) tl ii ,the cet /louse to come to a decision onfavourd- decidedly in favour, he would riot say of a lavish expendi tura, but of considerable expenditure, and that at ano -4el),'. e oull y.e2naercial policy which bad been pursued IN had th Y of late years. Now he (Sir Robert I the i r time . it would be decidedly in favour of a sudden si t • °tee at ee • and - flue ; , and) precipitate retrenchment. He was speaking now of 1 5 ti f , ! a t , TT _ commence in the euity in . op.- ! R'• form Parliament, and he did not believe that, judg ,i_rk,..lit,i,,3 1 1 -2 . (lnt r u i •able Friend that :l he firmly bilieved i a ing from its course for several successive years, the Re t,itle t ,",tss tt tem• p E n. end had ant eel , . to . a k s ,s k c t t li c e ow H in ou e.. se_ 1 .t . .. j . form Parliament had prometed economy. This he knew I ' t ` t ": 1 1:y , l a '_e i len upon those principles nettedth it tli . e w G e. re a r s nment thwll he bad been con f'ret see w e would have ft atned his resolution to that i ether Governments, had had very ),11i,elett, issued have broneht that great question to ! n a ' H . itlt ,I C 'eal 0 ,, in- te sd !f" attartinn by the use ef , great difficulty in prosperous times, and when the hot fit of expenditure was upon the House ef Commons, in re satl"CtEtio' -g rass:, t; g L ne o advantage b, which he could i sisting the desire of the House to increase the expend ,",,till If :" had we'd ai d' mi st d int h ellieible language. 1 ttettlea i ls could he believe lre that an his Hon ' . Friend really tnre. Therefore, though he d not deny that, when ever there ens a pressure poneuoam classes, there was a t l d' a iZe t i a r po i i na icy ltly whi a c u h i op ad in b ie e n unfavourable to the warm desire for immediate retrenchment; yet, he had been pursued in this coun more confince in the progressive, reflecve retrench btttel?ti, t ie, Y ; "•ri, because he had the other nicht heard 1 ment of fi de Go . ve; nment, than he had n ti the varying, l ei tel ls ;:c_ll i d declare ‘ that in his opinion it would' have I vacillating policy or the House of Commons, with regard i t ` q , 4 4 ,o i ! l l , o.ll'a Le a tth e termination i f the war to have to a reduction of the exeenditurie Were they then to tll le t : t h il . a e nlotiutl legislation the . prica () o f food in England vote for the motion if his lion. Friend in favour of eco ttlltt b r e Ll i t tici t took credaiat its rice on the .t cent A. t. ° Hie of the viees notny? If they did, he thought, after the i xperience of the last fortnight, they would he placed in a most pecu i''telit In e f a l e L' e ntertainedin the e y s' a ag r a l c S i l y s ° and declared liar position. An abstract vote for the reduction of the no' the b een his publicl- np - l e, ssed op , anion at that I expsnditure would justify the country in the expectation ta i l e W e t s tueY could‘e' - ..f . ' I l g! raise the I not . by arti tete means ,. . 1 that there was about to be a vast reduction of expendi 'kl,4ttett,A t ikt; r : l , h ere. to a higher rate than the, which it tare. Why, if they agreed to that resolution, where t Si. %t c c Y bring. Then, again, he found from a would they make their reductions? He was truly sorry to ro t ' the ' the hii g l i t Hon. Geetleman the Secretary at - I hear his Hon Friend talk so loosely about keeping • • faith 4tlit`ad:' at no very remote period the principles a with the '. . . , . ttt :hi ll ' or, of least t h di m ii o th -, the abohtien of legisiative re tions, position, and high character of his Hon. Friend. t 4 e ' 8 e suPply of food, had never had a more it l , `els b ore earnest, or a more persevering advocate lie thought it unworthy alike of his position and cha hitt"terr i n. Friend.' (Heat. ) - Nie; cou -- ;iitie. those hi s p t 'ltelaration s with - that ere-IFt fur sagacity .' 1140 n. Friend claimed for ' having alts' f ys _...)re- • reeler to countenance such ax: notions with respect to pee firming our obligations to the public creditor. But what war the great depat talent of the e xpenditure which he intended to reduce? Was it the salaries of the pub- LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING-, MARCH 13, 1850 lie officers? If it were so, would it not be much better to let tee Her. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) bring f rward the motion of which he had given notice, and have it discussed upon its own intrinsic merite than cull-an-ass that discussion by any vogue or eeneral reso lutiote such al the one before the House? Whatever his Hon. Friend might say, he (Sir R. Peel) did not be lieve :lilt he intended to dialieish the confidence of the public creditor—he did not believe that he ietended to reduce the civil list, and that he concurred io the posi tion taken by the Hon. Member for the West Riding tie other night, that an engagement having been contracted by Parliament with the Crown at the commencement of the present reign, that that was a solemn engagement which we were bound to maintain.—(Hear.) Would the House bold out an expectation that there should be -a reduction in the military expenditure? Why, what was the vote which it came to only that morn ing? On this, Tuesday night, the 12th of March, they were called upon to eneoura„;e a general expectation in the country that adequate means should be forthwith adopted to reduce the expenditure of' the country, and he found that that very morning the House of Commons refused to diminish the effective strength of the army below 99,128 men by a majority of 223 to 50. That was the vote which the House had come to. Tbus they had excluflel the public creditor and the civil list, whilst the question of salaries had better be maintained for separate consideration.—(Hear, hear.) The other great items of the public expenditure were the army, navy, and ordnance—chiefly the army and navy; and they ap proached them on this day early in the evening, having at a very early period of the morning declared by a majority of 223 to 50 that the effective force should be maintained at 99,128 IMP, which governed the whole expenditure of the army estimates; and at a late hour that morning had determined by a majority of 117 to 19 to maintain a force of 39,000 seamen and 11,000 marines , . —(hear, hear.) Now he was decidedly in favour of the policy and necessity of retrenchment. He believed there were many taxes which now pressed upon the energies‘of the country, and diminished the comfsrts of the great mass, the reduction of which, if it could be effected consistent'y with good frith and the public security, would confer inestimable benefit. Nay more, he believed that in time of peace, and ie order to carry out the principle of retrenchment, they must consent to incur some risk.—(Hear, hear.) If they chose to declare that they would have their garrisons and fortifications in a complete state at all times, he ven tured to say that no amount of annual expenditure would be sufficient for the purpose. If they adopted the opinions of military men, who slid they would throw upon Parliament the whole responsibility of a war sud denly breaking out, and the consequences which might result therefrom, they would overwhelm the country with expenditure, and he thought, theref ire, that the Govern ment aught to feel assured that the House of Commons would protect them if they did incur, with respect to some of our distant possessions, a portion of that re sponsibility which must be incurred by making a saving, and their not being f end in a state of preparation in the event of a sudden attask. lls went further. Baum pirate si pacem veils was a maxim which could not be contradicted; but at the same time it was one which must be received with great qualification and reserve. With respect to many of our means of defence, they could not be called suddenly into action. They must, theref ire, be always maintainel, even at a period ( f peace, in a stets of efficiency. But he be lteve3 they consulted their true interests and the stre lgth of the country by husbanding their resources, and trust ing to those latent and dormant energies which, when called out, would rally this gallant and glorious people around the national standard, and enable us to set at defiance all the insults or menaces of foreigners.— (Cheers.) lle agreed that the maintenance by foreign p )wers of such enormous establishments ought to act as a warning as well as an example. Foreign powers might be impressed with the idea that they thus rendered themselves exempt from attack, but be believed that the system overburdened their people, and that no greater benefit could be conferred upon the human race than those powers consenting to maintain their relative posi tions towards each other, and each reducing its army.— (Hear, hear.) It was the aggregate of their military force which was undermining the very foundation of their prosperity, and the financial trial, when it came, would be a most severe one. His opinion was, with re ference to all the powers—Russia, Prussia, France, and Austria—that if they had but the good sense to maintain their relative strength, and put down some portion of the enormous expenditure which they were at present incurring by the mainteuance of their armies, thay would not diminish their security, but greatly contribute to their prosperity. Still, the example which they set could not be disregarded; and if they chose to have those enormous establishments, it did impose upon this country the necessity, he would not say to make corres ponding preparations, but at least not to diminish its force to the extent to which we should diminish it if all fear and apprehension of a sudden attack were altogether removed. These were his views with regard t this question. But he did advise the House of Commons to apply itself to economy in practical details, and not to give votes on one day of 223 to 50 in favour of the maintenance of an army of 100,000 men, and of 170 to 19 in favour of 39,000 seamen and 11,000 marines; and on the very same day to come to a general resolution justifying a general expectation on the part of the country that some great reduction would take place. On these grounds, then, he could not vote for the finan cial part of the motion of his Hon. Friend. He be lieved that, if carried, it would end but in delusion, and that the House of Commons would say, " Hero we have performed a great work ; we have come to this glorious resolution; and, reposing upon our laurels, we need not apply ourselves to the active and somewhat in vidious duty of attending to economy in smaller details." Mr. NEWDEGA.TE would support the motion, be cause it was justified by thecircumstances of the country, and intelligible in itself. Notwithstanding the asser tions of Hon. Gentlemen opposite to the contrary, it was well known that a large majority of the labourers of the country were dependent on agriculture for sup port.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth contended that the low prices of agricultural produce were not caused by his free trade measures, and 3 et those measures were passed avowedly to produce low prices. It was amusing to hear the Right Hun. Baronet taunt the Hon. Member for West Surrey with inconsistency.—[Sir R. PEEL denied that he had done so.] If the Hon. Member for West Surrey proved an advocate of free-trade doctrines, the county would probably not return him again to enlighten the House by his eloquence. With respect to the pressure of taxation during the war and in no present day, it would be found, if the difference of the currency were taken into account, that the taxation of 1813 did not ex ceed that of 1849. If the population had increased one third, agricultural produce had been reduced 47 per cent. in value since 1813, and the exports had diminished 70 For cent. in value. He concurred in what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peal) as to main taining the requisite establishments, but he could not acquiesce in the attempt to fet aside the consideration of the question before the House. Mr. EVELYN expressed his intention to support the motion. He hal been sent to that House to support re duction of expenditure, which appeared to , afford the only chance of reli f to the country. Colonel SIBTHOR2 supported the moron. As re garded the vote of that morning referred to by the Right Hon. Barone, (Sir R. Peel), they had the consolation of reflecting that it was the very hither of j.nconsistency that made the charge. The farmers to a man would pat their shoulders to the wheel for the purpose of shoving the present Ministers from their places, but not with the view of putting the Right Honourable Member for Tamworth in their position with his friend and ally the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Those genalemen who now voted for Government, expectants of office, or pro bably paid for their support, would be the t rst to retract their errors on the hmtings and Like protection for their watchword. Colonel THOMPSON had felt himself gomewhat in the predicament of the navigator, who, when asked to , jein in some doubtful religious ceremonial, said, "If this is the devil, I worship God." Ho had some idea of offering his vote on the other side of the 'Louse under a similar protest, and would probably have done so had he heard nothing but the speech of the Honourable Mover. But what was to bo done with the speech of the Honourable Seconder, who, with all the eloquence for which ho was remarkable, impressed . the House with the idea that every one who voted for the motion must be held as voting to raise the price of corn ? The bait was reduction of taxation ; the hook protection to agriculture. The Honourabe Seconder avowed the otj,:et, without any appearance of disgrjse ; and ho (Colonel Thompson) must, under these ath•cumstances, he permitted to decline voting with the other side of the House. Mr. WOOD observed, that when he fotend a Member so distinguished as the llonourable Member for West Surrey, than whom none knew better how to assert what he meant, proposing an a'ostract resolutien which con tained nothing but a political truism, he was obliged to ask whether it did not mean something else.. By far the larger number of there who had supported the motion had spoken of the dismal position of the fa.erners in con sequence of free t ra d e ; an d at all evearts one party might allege, were the motion carried, that it recognised .a right in the farmer tole() protected, ea 'Mist another might interpret it as heralding a real red action in the military establishments. The latter supp , asition would be an entire delusicn, because the Honot ruble Mover, when an attempt was male to effect reds iction in the army, walked out of the House. There an impene trable mystery about the motion ; but then to was not so with respect to the views of those who supported it, though four or five Members on the ot'hez side had voted for retrenchment. He should suppori, the previous question.! Mr. STAFFORD regarded the observations of the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Woo d) as a sign of the times. The meaning was, that !so would n, t vote for the motion because not only he, !out everybody else, must agree with the principle it asst ated. On the present occasion, as when the motion of the Hon. Member for the West Riding of York> hire was dis eusset, the Government availed themselv ea of the dif ferent patties for tte purpose of deft sting each in turn..: There was a good deal for reflection, soanething for mieth, but very little for hope, in such a :its to of parties as the present. The time might not be very hr distant —nearer than many likel to contemplate --when those who represented the agricultural interest • in that House might be compelled by the stress of cii eurnstances no longer to consent to keep any Governmee .5 in power by that balance of parties ; and when such ot i tseations might be broached as the Noble Lord himself w, mid ho the first to regret. He repeated it—when they • ?laced the agri cultural community of this country in s neh a position a; to feel that their property was being destroyed by the legislation of the Government, ihey would nut have that attachment to the arist eeratie" (if they pleased) to the expensive institutions c f this country, of which they had hitherto been the foi :emost champions. The Bight Lion. Baronet the Member (or Tamworth said that his lion. Friend, the Member for West Surrey had spoken too loosely of maintaining the pH ic credit. Certainly, allusions to that subject had of hte bsen free quent enough to he somewhat C ,rinidahle and alarming; but let it not be forgotten that when they ;allsed of the public !clef., the agricultural constituencies—he did not say the agricalturel Membere, but they might ha chaneed and successors, with other feelings be substituted for them—felt that their property was being sacrificed under circumstances which little inclined them to apply the epithe' . ., " public faith," or " public honour" to the mode in which it was done.—(Cheers from the Protec tionist:.) Let no Hon. Gentleman say that he coun tenanced these things. Not at all. He put forward these remarks in refereece to the whole system of the expenditure of this country, and he trusted t eat those who had been advocating reduction would not content themselves wish gibes and jeers at his Hon. Friend, but would show how the principles they extolled so loudly were compatible with the existing state of things and how it was they were prepared to rt fuse to the agri culturists either a remrn to the system which had been abandoned, or at all events a consistent carrying out of the principles which, being acted on to their injury, were denied them to their benefit.—(Hear, hf ar.) The Right Hon. Baronet asked them whether they would have an excise placed on the farmer to the amount of 300 per cent. which was exacted at the Customhouse on the foreign grower of tobacco. To that he (Mr. S'afford) replied, that he was not called upon to say whether he would or not—that was not the argument. If they were to have free trade let them have it, and let the authors of the free-t-ade doctrine arrange the revenue as they pleased. Precisely the same argument was applicable with regard to malt ; aid he asked, whilst this system of one-sided legislation was per sisted in, how could the agriculturists be expected to feel that attachment to the Legislature which was desirable? The Right Hon. Baronet and Right Hon. Gentlemen upon the Treasury bench had told them that the price of corn would certainly rise—would they tell him at what price eheapners erased to be a blessing and became a curse? Why, if cheapness were all in all, did they promise that that bright vision of approaching cheapness would soon be dimned by the cloud of return ing high prices?—(Bear, hear.) The question might be delayed for a time, but it could not be staved off alto gether, and it would be the duty of those who repre sented constituencies which suffered the most severely to bring the matter forward again and again, to protest against their one-sided legislation, t 3 warn them of the coming danger, and to tell them that no majority in that House, and no apparent triumphs of skilled and practised debaters could convince a set of men whose fortunes were being sacrificed to feel that attachment to the Le gislature which the farmers cf England had always been accustomed to feel, and in feeling which they had always stood by the institutions of the country.—(Cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not his intention to have addressed the House upon the present motion, be cause it appeared to him too vague in its character, and susceptible of no kind of explanation, had not the for. Gentleman who had just sat down at that cool hour of the evening made so very warm a speech. Ha could not help, therefore, taking notice of some cf his doctrines. He understood the motion of the Hon. Gentleman to be, a great reduction of taxation. The Hon. Member for Northamptonshire seemed to imply by his speech that they impeded all rejection by the course they took; but he denied that that was the case. It seemed to him, that with the heavy debt they had, and for which they were paying 28,000,0001. interest—with the expenses of the Consolidated Fund and the full and half-pay—there was very little, if these charges were to be defrayed, upon which the reduction could be made,; unless by reducing the number cf men in the army and navy. It had been properly observed by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, that after the votes of last night it could not be set aside by any division that might take place that night. How, under such circumstances, the Hon. Member far West Surrey Ras to arrive at any considerable reduction of expenditure, it was impossible for him to say. One Hon. Member bad a motion on the paper for a reduction of 10 per cent. upon all official salaries; but if they took off 10 per cent. from all, including the members of the Cabinet, it would just add to the public revenue the sum of 40,0001., and what would he the great reduction of taxation derived from that saving he would leave to the Hun. Gentleman to explain.—(Hear, hear.) Whe . her the reduction was right or not was another question, .which he should not discuss; but if they were to pre serve the public faith and the national credit, and to pay and defray the tensions of the soldiers and sailors whom they had voted for the service of that year, and if they did not think these numbers excessive, there was hardly any great reduction that could be made. It was said that the Government derived a great advantage from being assisted one night by one side of the House, and the next night by the other side. Why, it would be more advantageous to them, if it was prac ticable, for them to adopt either one or the other of these motions. If they had taken the suggestion of the Honourable Member for Montrose they would probably have his support and that of his friends, and if they supported the restoration of the import duties on corn the Government was assured that they would have had the support of Hon. Gentlemen on the other side.— (Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, putting themselves in a position of greater difficulty, and was not giving them selves a fair chance, when they came forward and said that they agreed with neither one side nor the other. Why did they do so? Simply because such was their conviction. The Hop. Gentleman opposite had told them that if they went on in their present course those who sat on his side of the 1101130 would be inclined to vote for measures dangerous to the institutions of the coun try. It was impossible for him to believe that that statement could have any foundation. Mr. A. STAFFORD said his remark was, not that they should do so, but that they would be removed by their constituents, and that their successors might do so. Lard. J. RUSSELL—The Hon. Geniteman in the first part of his argument made no such reserve.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and " No, no.") Well, then he would take it in the other sense. It was said that the agricultural i epresentatives would vote for mea sures dangerous to the institutions of the coun try, on the first alternative, it was a libel on the party to which the Hon. Gentleman belonged; and in the other alternative, it was a libel upon the agricultural constituencies.—(Haar.) He did not believe that be cause their opinions with regard to protection were not suffered to prevail—because the House had adopted views opposed to the electors for the counties, that they would send men inclined to vote for measures which would be considered dangerous to the institutions of the country. He was confirmed in that opinion by seeing a statement made by a Noble Lord, from whom he gene rally differed, but for whom he entertained the highest regard and respect—he meant the Duke of Richmond. At a public meeting, at which the Noble Duke presided, one of the speakers having stated that the farmers would bo no longer loyal and support the institutions of the country, the Noble Duke immediately interrupted him with great indignation, and appealed to the meeting whether it was not true that there would be no change in the 1)3 salty of the farmers ; and ho (L Ord John Russell) was not sur prised to find the t he had been supported by the cheers of the greet majority of the meeting. The Hon. Gentleman had taken the troubl e to re peat the oft reputed fallacies of free tra , le, and h a d aga i n a skA that th e farmere should be allowed to grow tobacco on the principle of free trade in all things. So far as the ques tion went at present, it was, whether the farmer would be able to compete with foreign -grown tobacco with or with out a duty? He contended that in neither case would the English cultivator be able to compete successfully with the foreign grower. Another grievance that had been urged by him, and no doubt it was trae, W 33, that the farmer was not allowed to moisten and dry his own barley, and that the malt tax iuterfered with him. Here again then there was no question of free trade, because there was no foreign malt admitted free cf duty. The quettlon was one merely relating to the taxation of the country. That taxation had been considerably increased by wars, and they had 2 1,000,000/. of interest per an num imposed upon the country in consequenee of Lae French and American wars. He did not know what the H. n. Member for Wrest Surrey thought of these ware. Ho (Lord John Russell) was one of those who thought they had been unwisely un der-taker, but, w h et h er w i sely or u nwisely, the d e b ts hear.) The Hon. Gentlemen had as k e d w h en did cheapness cease t o b e a had been contra c t e d, an d t h ey cou ld not get rid o f th em —they must b e h onest l y pa i d. —(dear ' blessing, because, in the course of, the debate in that House, some Hon. Get.tlemaa had given an opinion that prices e ere likely to rise. All the errors upon that point had arisen from a sentence in Adam Smith, which said -- -- - --...-- ... - that nations p u rsui ng their true interests acted just 171:e individuals—th e y sold in the dearest and bought in the cheapest markets. What ho (Lord J. litirre:l) under stood from that was, teat nations pursued their own in terests just. as individuals did; but the nation was not compelled by law to buy in the cheapest market and sell in the dearest. If p ar ti es wished to buy a dear arti c l e in preference to a c h ea p one , why not? WhatheLegisla ture was concerned in was, to tske care that they sho u ld not make dear what could be ha d cheap. H e con tended that it was no t r i g ht in a nation or a legi s l a t ure to impose taxes to matte articles manufactured by one particular class dear—to injure the consumer at the ex pense of the producer. What the Government wished was merely to see the people procuring the necessaries of life at the cheapest possible rate. It was naturally to be expected that if there was an extraordinary produce at home and abroad, prices would be low—and the existing cheapness might he supposed to arise fromparticular circumstances, and th a t p r i ces would rise. Just as if they were very high oae year, they might naturally expect a greater produce next year and a change in price. The principle of their legislation was not to interfere in that case one way or another. If that were so, then there was no truth whatever in the assertion that they had only a 00e-sided system of free trade. It could not Le pretended that that House was bound to abandon or do away with taxes for the purpose of revenue. Lest their taxes be laid on not to favour one class at the expense el another—let them not have two sorts of taxes—one class paid for the benefit of the state, and the other paid into the pocket; of individuals or a class f ar their exclusive benefit. In that p o i nt o f v i ew the observations of the Hon. `[ember for West Surrey were r cry inconsistent with his argument, be cau se, as they had been engaged in expessive wars, and had in curred heavy debts and liabilities requirin,a , a large amount of taxation to defray, let them not add to that taxation by having another seeks of t tx3s imposed, which would not go into the laxchequer, b u t wou ld g o into the pockets of individuals, and for the benefit of cue a classagainstanotaer. For trese reasons and others that heal been urge 1 by the Rght Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War, he could rot assent to the motion of the Hots. Member for West Ssrrey, but would vote for the previeus question.—([lest, hear.) Lord J. MANNERS said le did not intend, nor was it necessary to review the (pinions expressed by the Noble Lord, for he concludes by practically admiteng all that the Honourable Gentleman the Member for West Surrey had contended for. The Noble Lord !aid, that in removing taxation they ought to to ke care that they did not prejudice one class for the benefit of' another. 1 That was the principle which he thought admitted of a clear application to the case of the farmers of England. Because, in the year 1850, now that the nee system of commercial policy had been fur some time acted upon, if the representations were true which the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had that evening made to the House, that the farmers were in a mete flourishing condition than they had been fur many years past, how was it that they had adopted the course of presenting numerous petitions.to Parliament from carious channels, the object of which was to procure the repeal Of some of the taxation which they were subjected to? People of all classes were saying that they were over burdened with the amount of taxation, and the answer was that taxation had been reduced as far as it was pos sible to reduce it.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Northamptonshire had certainly sta:o that his constituency were tolerably well off, but he had not heard from any Honourable Gentleman con nected with the manufacturing districts how things were going on there. Did any Hon. Gentleman con nected with Manchester know that the people of the United States, at no very distant day, would be clothed with articles of American manufacture ? But it was now to China that they were to look for the security of their manufacturing system. The circular of the ele3sre. Littledale, of Liverpool, showed plainly enongh that all the trade likely to take place between England and China would probably ke endangered by a variety of circumstances, and that there was a gre It depression amongst the country dealers, which depressed trade ex cessively. The time, in short, was fast approaching when the cry of distress, now so great, would still be greater. The charge of inconsistency brought against those who opposed the motion for a reduction of the army and those who would support the present motion was unfounded. But how was this motion put ? By the evasion of the previous question. Though they might meet it in that way, they might depend upon it it would revert again and ag item. It was not for them t 3 decide when the reduction should be made, but they maintained that in the present state of the country the existing amount of taxation could not with justice be maintained, and for the reasons he had assigned be would vote for the motian of the Member fir West Surrey, as a protest against the unjust system of taxa tion which pressed so severely upon the country. Mr. BRIGHT said that if he were a man guided by what was called authority, he should be somewhat puz zled which way to vote on the present occasion, for emi nent authorities had been ruling both ways with equal emphasis. He had, however, read the resolution before them with the greatest attention, and with reference solely to its intrinsic claims, and he was most anxious that the House should net lose sight of the real nature of that resolution, or be deterred from voting for it be cause it had been supported by some injudicious friends, and by some untenable arguments. The resolution was but half the resolution which the lion. Gentleman pro posed last year, and was all the milder in consequence. The proposition was, that although the Government had this year, to a certain extent, lessened the expenditure, they had not lessened it so much as they might have done, and as the circumstances of the country required. He (Mr. Bright) being entirely of thet opinion, should vote for the resolution. It was always an easy mat ter to find fault with what we did not like, and eccordingly the Gentlemen on the Treasury bench ob jected to the resolution as vague. As a practical illustration of his distaste for the vague, the Right Honourable Gentleman had met this vague motion by moving that vaguest of all amendments tho pre vious question, a proceeding certainly open to the chage of inconsistency, of which so much use had been made, but involving this important admission on the part of the Government, that they did not deny the truth of the propoeitioe which, as inconvenient, they desired to get rid of.—(dear, hear.) If the House thought that the taxation of the country was not too much, the House would of course reject the motion: if the Howe, agree ing with its constituency, was more and more in favour (of economy,it would reject the subterfuge amendment.— Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman had himself afforded the very strongest argument in favour cf the former course. The Right Honourable Gentleman, el k:ding to the similar resolution of last year,—" Whereas a greater amount of taxation is levied from the people than is required for the good and efficient Government of the United Kingdom; and whereas, large sums are expended 3 early in supporting needless places, extrava gant salaries, and unnecessary works and establish ments,"—then, es in the resolution now bef re the Mouse, the Right Honourable Gentleman, in reference to the resolution of last year, dis tinctly stated that the resolution having teen adopted by the House, against an amendment of the Noble Member for Middlesex, the Government had accepted i', and had, in consequence of that resolutior, sent a circular to all the public departments, reciting the resolution, and requiring that in each the most rigid economy should be set on toot.—(Hear, hear.) If, then, the resolution of last year, no doubt equally de nounced by Government at the time as vague and need less, Lad produced so salutary an effect, visible in the reductions in this year's estimates, it was a most fair argument that, adopt the present resolution, and the Government—a Government he fully believed honestly disposed to carry economy much :further than they had hitherto been able to carry it—would avail them selves of it as a Parramentary encouragement to reduce the estimates still further next year, and as a source of strength for them against the pernicious influences, un seen by the public and the House, which impeded their onward progress in the direction of economic reform. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had referred to the large majorities in savour of the 12,000,000 e or 13,000,0001. of army and navy expenditure, and there might be some thing in what he said as regarded the majorities, but, at all events, it had nothing to do with the minorities, who were manifestly bound, in common consistency, to vote for this resolution.—(Hear.) It was certain, however, that sense of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who had voted against the Hon. Member for the West Riding and the Hon. Member for Montrose, were now in a very awk ward predicament, thoroughly subjecting themselves to the sarcasms which the Right Hon. Baronet, to whom they showed no mercy, had directed against them.— (Rear,) Ho would advise those gentlemen to get out of their predicament by adopting some definite conclusion; he would advise them to be distinctly either for economy or for the other thing.—(llear, hear.) He made no ot jeation to their calling for economy because the corn lass s had been abolished; it was natural enough for the representatives of the agricultural interest, a large For do:lt of whom indisputably were no longer in the pros per els condition of some former years, to be stimulated by that very fact more closely to investigate questions of finance and expenditure, and to require from the Govern ment the utmost possible economy. The Ilon. M ether for Oxford had warned the House that the succrss of this resolution would be trumpeted filth as a Protectionist triumph over free-trade principles. Ho was the last man in the House to desire a triumph for protection over free trede, and he would incidentally remark that the state ments of the Noble Member far Colchester, as to the effect of f. co trade on the manufactures of Bradford end Manchester, would be utterly repudiated by those manufacturers—Meer, hear)—but protection was gone, never, the believei, to return—certainly not in these days—and he was anxious they should not be for ever quarrelling about a point that was settled. Let them :rather join fur an object which all, Free-traders and Pro tectionists, seemed to consider essential to the country; let them combine, not to destroy the institutions of the country—not to reduce the defences below the point which wes really deemed necestaty—but to cut down, with a steady aid unsparing hand, the excrescences of expenditure which the Government itself, y ar after year, practically admitted to be such, by diminishing them to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounde. —(bear.) The Government need not think this motion hostile to them ; tee effect of the similar motion last year, so far from being hostile to then, had been most neneficial, by enabling them to carry out to a much greater extent the economy which he honestly believed eiseco to tte honestly ctesiroms or accomplishing.—(liear, hear.) Believing, then, that this resolution would sti mulate and strengthen the Government, as that f last year had stimulated and strengthened them, believing chat no Fame Minister could have any interest in un necessary and wasteful expenditure, and that the present Prime Minister desired all such expenditure to he abo lished, he should, as a friend cf the Government—but, if need were, still more as a friend to economy—support the motion.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HENLEY saw no inconsistency in voting fir this motion after voting against the motions of the Hon. Members for the West Riding and Montrose. The casts sire quite different. Hon. Gentlemen might very well be indisposed to decide upon a paeticular number of men or upon a particular expenditure, and yet be very anxi ous to lay down a general principle of economy. Ile eves much amused with the manner in which the Right lion. Member for Tamworth bad given the go.bye to the, malt tax, but the Right Hon. Gentleman might rely upon it that this was a question in which the v e e a r r n .) Im a t g e r wu i cta,us at all events, did not deny the principle of the re - l satisfactoryt , ti a r is t took to re findre, great tha that interestthis year e i a n r d e t e h d e . solution now proposel. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, after giving the Rouse a little reading from Adam Smith, and explaining the often-disputed question as to the meaning of buying in the cheapest market and selling in the dearest, had said that he thought that there was a great advantage in high prices when they rose in a natural way. He (Mr. Henley) sup ; posed, then, that the Noble Lord thought the high prices of 1847 a great benefit to the country.--(Hear, hear.) H e bad heard no single argument advanced against the motion, for although it had been said that it was inconvenient and meant nothing, no one had ventured to deny that the necessities of the country required the strictest economy that could safely be exercised. The Hor. Member for Guildford indeed had seemed to doubt whether there was any distress among the :seri . cultural body, but he thought the Honourable Gentle man was singular in that opinion. —(Hear, hear.) They certainly had not aeon the fulfilment of the prophecies of prosperity which were held out when a change was made in their commercial policy; acid there was now, unquestior ably, from one end of the country to the other, an universal cry that taxes could not be borne.—(Hear, hear.) He was the last man in the House, to ray anything that could operate against public credit, but when the cry of distress was so universal, he could not shut his eyes to the fact that every institution of the country was, to a certain extent, in danger. He had regretted to hear the Secretary-et-War state that no remission of taxation that he was aware cf could give relief to the people. Mr. F. MAULE denied that he had made any such atateme ,t. Ha had said that be saw in the resolution of the Hon. Member for West Surrey no remission of taxation proposed that could give relief te the people. Mr. HENLEY continued—lt came to this, ther, that no pressure which such a motion could put upon the Go vernment was likely to , produce such a remission cf tsxatiou as would give relief to the country. He re gretted to hear the sl:4temcnt of the Right Hen. G:ntl, - man, because many vi:rsons were n,7::tious that the :cc- nt change in our commercial policy should have a fair trial, but they were atisfied it could not have a fair trial s the burdens now pre!t sing upon the people were re moved or lightened. Ile would give his cordial support to the motion, and he was confident that, if it were carried, its (Tract would be to press down the public ex penditure. Mr. HEYWORTH said they ought to reduce the burdens on the country. Land was a manufacture fir the production if food, which should be free from bur dens like any other manufacture. He would transfer the burden to property. It they did not except land, ho would join them in placing the difference that would ari.:e upon property. The Member for Tamworth had made a speech for which the country was indebted to him, and which would never die in the memory of those who heard it. He should vote for the resolution. Mr. IIUME egret d with the Hon. Member that taxa tion ought to be placed upon property. There was no singularity in the Hon. Member—tnu Member for Oxford shire, Mr. Henley—stating that the ceuutry now cried out for a reduction of caxa•ion; but formerly, when the country was crying out for a reduction of its burdens, there was not one Hon Gentleman on teat side of the House who said one word about distress, and the bureens which the Hon. Member now admit:ed to be general, were repudiated. There was a cry of inconsistency raised with respect to Hon. Member:. who might be disposed to vote for this motion, but he (Mr. Hume) would not fall in with it. He cared not from what qua-ter it came—whether Tory Whig, or Radical, he was ready to support the principle. --(Hoar.) What was the motion before the House ? It was a necessity for a reduction of taxation.— (Hear, hear.) From 1792 up to the present time, the increase that took place in the salaries under Government were almost incredible, and it was said thet those increases were owing to high prices of food; but what he (Mr. Hume) would do now that the price of food was brought down by the legislative changes which had t lien place, would be to fall back to the salaries cf 1792. On the 26th of July, 1821, the House had come to a determination that there should be a reduction of all salaries, and that the cost of the army and navy should be reduced t ) the standard of 1797, and the following year showed a reduction of 3,000,0001., a considerable reduction of the navy and all other branches having taken place. He had no doubt if the House would set to work honestly on the subject, the country would derive great benefit from its resolution. The present civil list was the one settled in George the Fourth's time, and let any Hon. Member compare the prices at that time with those of the present, and ask himself ought the prefect expensive scale b ) kept up? He (Mr. Hume) felt that it ought not; and he therefore hoped that this resolu tion would be carried. He would advise the Govern ment to settle the question now, convinced that the ieterests of the country required a settlement cf it. He would be prepared, before any Committee, to prove that they could reduce the expenditure 10,000,0001, and if they would take the establishment of 1797, and ap proximate to that, he had no hesitation in saying they would bring down the expenditure from 50,000,000/. to 40,000,0001. sterling.--(Herr, hear.) The Right lion. 13aronet the Member for Temworth, during the time he was recently in charge of the Government, re duced the expenditure cf the navy 1,000,0001. sterling; acid, if the present Government would go on in that way, he (Mr. Hume) believed they would render the country the greatest service. In 1833, he (Mr. Hume), was mem her of a Committee, when they bad 430 generals, and since that time there had teen 153 additional generals made. He wished that Hon. Members would lay aside the prejudices of their politics, and disabuse the minds of farmere, by telling them they conld not have high prices now. By that course they would place the landed pro prietors upon a safer footing, and it was on those gronds, and in that spirit, that he should support the motion of the Hon. Member. Mr. PHILIP BENNET thought, from the remarks which he had heard fall tbat night from Sir Rubert Peel, that the Right Hon, Baronet would not only support this motion, but that he would become a member c f the " Peace Socioty."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He was sorry, however, for the conclusion to which the Right Hon. Baronet had arrived. Ile had that morning re• ceivod information from the agricultural districts of Suffolk, which showsd a state of the grta'e it distress in those district•, and an amount of discontent which would require the aid cf the police to keep in check. He thought, lookiog at the causes which led to that state of things, and at the condition of the suffering classes, that a system of the greatest economy aas necessary, and in that conviction he felt it to be his duty to support the motion now before the House. Mr. OSBORNE said that, rerreFenting as he did such an enormous constituency, he did not wish to go to a division without explaining the grounds on which he had voted. He had not had the advantage of hearing the speech of the Hon. Member for Manchester, but he had heard the speeches of the Hon. Mover and of the llon. Memter for the North Riding (Mr. Cayley), and the result which he had arrived at was, that Hon. Gent!' men opposite, who had been always opposed to economy, or who invariably absented thenotelves when motions for retrenchment were brought forward, were now endea vouring to make a cat's-paw of Members on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, in order to endanger the policy that had been introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth.—(Hear, hear.) For his part, ho was determined to give no vote that would endanger that policy, and he declined becoming a cat's paw in the hands of the Hon. Member for West Surrey. —(A laugh.) If the motion was intended to mean any thing, it was to be a reversal of the policy of free-!rade; but ho should not take up the time of the House by going into that subject at present. He was ready to vote in favour of every motion for a reduction in the army, the navy, or the ordnance that the Honourable Gentleman opposite might bring forward, but he could not give a fallacious vote at their bidding, the object of which was to endanger that policy which he believed to be of essen tial service to this country.—(Hear, hear.) Captain HARRIS believed that it was necessary to keep up the establishments of a great empire like this on a most efficient scale; but he must agree with the Hon. Membcr for West Surrey, that a revision of the taxation of the country was necessary, and in that revi sion the malt and hop duties should form most promi nent feature , , The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had carried a great legislative change in the policy of this country; but he (Captain Harris) believed that the Right llonourable Baronet was now satisfied that he was rot legislating fir the whole country. He (Captain Barris) hello ing that an adjustment of the burdens of the country was necessary, should vote for the motion of the Hon. Mem ber for West Surrey. Mr. LABOUCHERE would not detain the Hcuse long, but if time and opportunity permitted him to go into the speeches of Hop. Members in support cf this motion, he thought he would bo enabled to convince the House of their fallacy. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had said that ho would vote for any Inc- Von that would enable them to remit any con siderable reduction of taxation ; but the Hon. Gentleman said that the object of his giving his vote fur this measure was, to reverse the policy which had been recently adopttd. He contemplated a duty on corn of The re :sons which he (Mr. La bouchere) should advance to the House, with a view of inducing it not to agree ti the motion cf the Hon. Member, would be altogether on different grounds. He thought the Government had given practical proof that they were disposed to redu::e all unnecessary expenditure and excessiue taxation, and it WAS the intention of the Government, as it was the duty cf that House, to reduce, as they could such expenditure and taxation. He 1)2- lieved that in the Government establishments in the year—the three great branches of the service—the nrmy, navy, and ordnance—the amount of reduction effected was not less than 730,600/., :tad, as compared with the year before, not less than 1,000,000/. sterling. He was aware that it was the duty of this House to take care that every economy should be carried into effect as far as could be consistently with the efficiency of the service, and ho felt that it wm. alto duty of oho House to take cure cn3t the public money should Le expended with the greatest possible economy ; and seeing that the Government wa3 acting in that spirit, he thought it was most unfair, most unjubt, and most ungrateful, to put the Government in a situation in which they must feel emharrassment night after night. Ho had a right to say that the conduct of the Government did not justify any such course.—(Gent', hear.) He felt that the evil conse quences which would result from such a course would be fur greater thu.ti any annoyance that could be given to the Government. Lie believed there never was a time when it was of greeter importance that the credit of this country should bo held high than the present. He believed, with the lion. Gentleman who brought forward this motion, that great distress prevailed in the country; but he felt that many of the statements which had been made that night had Leen male without any foundation, and that they were celculate d to do the greatest injury.—(Hear, hear, and loud cries of " Time, time.") He Rould not detain the Hen e hut for a very f minute'e. He thought that every indica tion cf ecoeoasy had been given by the Government, tied he hoped that Hon. Members would not embarrass the Government, but allow the estimates to be gone on with. One word only before he sat down. lie had heard with the delight which the whole House had the very able speech of the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tam worth—(Hear)—und he quite agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet that the strength of this country must de pend not on overgrown estahlishmentf, bat on es teblishmenti suited to the wants of the empire; and he agreed with him that it was not wise to push to an ex treme the care of our possessions, but he thought that Hun. Gentlemen misunderstood the Right lion. Baronet when they supposed him to infer that they should _ aban den their possession of those colonies. his (Mr. Labou ehere'e) opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet's stat,ment with regard to the colonies was that the Government of this country should be al xays in a position to afford to them in t::ne of danger the defence which they might stand in need ef, and as long as the British empire hung together this country could not escape from the discharge of that duty.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Sir BOBER f PEEL said he was net aware until he bad heard the statement cf the Right Honourable Gen tleman the President of the Board of Trade, that so extraordinary a construction had been put upon the remarks he made relative t' the maintenance of our garrisons. No man would ba more prepared than himself to make vigorous exertions in defending the British empire, whenever it was in d anger. What he said war, that with respect to so many garri sons in a time of profound peace being kept in a state of p rf.ct efficiency, would be impossible, without entailing an cverwhelmieg expense, and that rather than ado! t such a course, he would prefer trusting to the natural exertions of the British empire to defend any portion of it, whenever danger arose. Mr. MU.NlZsaid, that after the statement if the Right Honourable the Sceretary of War, there was no alternative leit him but to support the motion of the 1- 1 :7: 1 ! ttOT.?l'‘A ; r ese - r7 Honourable Member for West Surrey. The ipket -- .1,s Henourehl e G eut i sman h a d informed the. flout tyvit - s s el",4 the moth n of the Honourable Member last sessio • induced the Government t ) retrench t 3 a considerable extent in various public offices. With such an admis sion soaring him in the face, how could he avoid giving his support to the motion, in the hope, and with the ex pectation, that further economic practices would be pursuel. Before the motion was submitt.al, the Go vernment came down and asked for an income-tax, on the ground that the expenditure would rot exceed the revenue ; but after his motion, they not only ma , :e the expenditure meet the revenue, but actually re duced. Taxation was intolerable, and it was quite clear that something should be done to take the pressure off ineustry. Mr. BROTHERTON said, if he thought the motion were calculated to reduce taxation for the benefit of the community, he should certainly support it; but believing it to be a trap into which the Honourable Member for Birmingham bad fallen, and looking at the intent and me acting of those who proposed and supported it, he should vote with the Government against the propo sition.—(lronical cheers.) Lord DUNCAN said if the motion was a trap, it had caught him as well as the Hon. Member for Birming ham. He not only saw nothing objectionable in it, but something that he was prepared to support. He be lieved that it was brought forward with an honest in tention by the Hon. Member for West Surrey, and all he hoped and expected in return for his vote was that when he (Lord Duncan) brought forward his motion for repealing the taxes on light and air, Hon. Gentlemen opposite, acting on similar principles, would afford him the same support. Mr. DRUMMOND replied. lie felt neither indig ation nor contempt towards those who called this a dis honest motion; such charges were altogether unworthy of notice.—(Heat, hear.) But he would tell them what motions were " sham motions"—they were those motions that everybody knew would not press the Government. —(Hear.) Certainly, however amusing might bo the discrepancies strung together in this motion, the discre pancies by which this motion had been opposed were not less amusing. One Hon. Gentleman said it was a mere truism. "So powerful was it," said the Secretary at War, " that the Government had acted upon it last year"—(Cheers)—and another Hon. Gentleman said he would not vote for it because he would not be made a cat's paw.—(Laughter.) It appeared be had been mis understood when he dealt with the taxes that pressed pe culiarly on the labourer and the small farmer. He thought he had been explicit enough, for betook tobacco and hops, and various other things, as illustrations of articles the cultivation of which ought not to be interfered with by the Government. An Hon. Member had asked what ad vantage the people of Paisley would gain by the repeal of the malt tax. It was true that what they drank was not ale, but whisky; but it might as well be said that, as they did not live upon wheaten bread, but on Scotch porridge and oat cake, of what benefit to them was the opening of the ports to foreign wheatr— (Laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Man gles) had contradicted one of his (Mr. Drummond's) statements, but he happened to receive a petition from the people of Guildford that day, from which the House would be able to judge which of the statements was most accordant with the fact. (The Hon. Gentleman here read an extract from the petition to the effect that the petitioners, believing there was no probability of a return to protection, considered the duty on malt, hops, and bricks most inconsistent in principle, and unfair and in jurious to the farmer, and prayed for their total repeal, and far liberty to the farmer to grow any root whatso ever on his land. They also prayed, as the prices of all needfal commodities were considerably reduced, that all public salaries and pensions should be reduced in a cor responding degree.)—(Chcers.) " Believing there was no probability of a return to protection "—this was the language of men who, they were always told, would listen to nothing but getting back a ss. duty on corn.— (Hear.) The Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. Maegles) nearest neighbour—than whom a more respectable man did not exist—called bis labourers together lately and told them, " My good fellows, I'm not able to pay you for your labour as I have done. Two courses are open to me—l will either keep you all on at reduced wages, or I must tarn off some of you altogether." The men took a day to consider of it, and they all agreed to work for him at reduced wages.—(Hear, hear.) He was surprised to hear Honourable Gentlemen talk as they had dune about his making light of the public credit. What he said was, that they had not kept lath with the public deb:or—(llear, hear)—and, therefore, it was those Honourable Gentlemen, and not him, who had taught the country to hold the public creditor so very cheaply. He had several times said he would rather vote tor a higher property-tax than endanger the rights of the public creditor. Whenever he heard Hon. Gentlemen ta'k as they bad done on this subject, it always forcibly reminded him of La Fontaine's fable. The public debtor was like the poor animals which the lion was told it had done too great an honour to by cracking their bones; but the public creditor, like the jackass of the fable— (Laughter)—as soon as it saw it was about to be interfered with, exclaimed, " Comment! vous ne mangeriez point le foin d'autrui."—(Renewed laughter.) He had repeatedly warned the House of the peril arising from the doctrines of repudiation that were growing up in the country; and the fast was, our whole system of legislation had produced a most vicious state of things, enabling a few greedy capitalists to realise colossal fortunes amidst a starving people. And a remarkable proof of this was, that when Mr. Pitt was enacting the legacy duty, he thought it absurd to establish a legacy duty for the case of the millionaire, as it was then supposed to be utterly impos sible that such enormous fortunes could be amassed by particular individuals. In conclusion, he maintained that this was no sham or covert motion; it was plain and in telligible; and therefore he looked for the support cf . the House upon it. The House then divided, when there appeared— For patting Mr. Drummond's motion 156 Against putting it ... ... 190 _ _ Majority -34 Mr. Drummond'a Motion was accordingly lost. RELIEF OF OCCUPIERS NOT OWNERS OF LAND FROM COUNTY AND POLICE RATES. S:r HENRY lIALFORD moved for leave to bring in a Bill to relieve the occupiers of lands and tenements, not being owners taereof, from the payment of county rates and county police rates. Mr. PACKE seconded the motion. Mr. W. MILES declared that the prop-sition came upon him unawares, and called attention to some diffi culties Chet might arise in the operation of the Act, but did not oppose the introduction of tko Bill. Sir. GEORGE GREY would not object to the intro duction of the Bill. The effect of it would be to sepa rate the poor rate from the county rate, but he would not then give any opinion on it. After a few words from Mr. AGLIONBY and Mr. PACKE, the motion was agreed to. ADMISSION OF JEWS TO PARLAMENT. Mr. PAGE WOOD, in btinging fore a-d the motion of which ho had given notice, would not detain the House at any length. The matter which had gi en rise to it was notorious, and it was unnecessary fur him to enter into any detail on the subject. The House was aware that the city of London had returned to Parliament, when it first met, a gentleman who was unable to take his scat in that House in consequence of certain oaths which were necessary, or which were supposed to be ne cessary, to be taken by Members at the table before tak ing a seat in that House. That gentleman afterwards, in consequence of a Bill introduced and passed through tl.e House by a considerable majority being rejected in another place, resigned his seat, and the same gentle man was again returned by a large majority of the electors of the city of Londoe.—(Hear.) As one of those electors, and having been called upon by several others of that great body (under other circumstances it would be great presumption on his part to do so), he had taken upon himself to submit this motion to the House with a view to have a full inquiry into al! the circumstances which might be requiette for the purposes of tee House arriving at a conclusion on the subject.—(th ar, hear.) It was a matter which it wai quite impossible to withhold from the considera tion of the House for any lengthaled period. Nobody could suppose that a gentleman, who was twice twurned by such an important constituency as that of the city of London, and who hitherto, for reasons so well known, had been unable to take his seat in the House, would be permitted to remain in that situation without a decision being come to one way or the other with reference to his position.—(Hear.) It was not for him (Mr. Page Wood) to prejudge the question, his object merely was to have a Committee of Inquiry appointoi, and he rested his proposition on a precedent he had found in the jour nals, with reference to the case of Mr. Pease, when he claimed a seat in tl at House on making an affirmation, int.teed of taking the oaths in the form prescribed by the latest Act of Parliament on the subject—the 81k Geo. 111. Upon that occasion Mr. Pease was not al lowed to take the affirmation until a full inquiry was made on the subject; and he would precisely adopt the course then taken, making only such changes in the form of the motion as the peculiar circumstances of this case rendered necessary. The form of the motion in Mr. Pease's case war, that a Select Committee should be ap pointed to search the journals cf the House, and to re port such precedents and such Acts or parts of Acts of Parliamei t, in relation to the persons called Quakers taking their seats, and making a solemn affirmation where oaths ought to be taken. Tee motion he had to present to the House wis the same, substituting the word Jews for Quakers. He proposed to move for a " Select Com mittee to search the journals of this House, and to re port such precedents and such Acts, or parts of Acts of Parliament, as relate to the question of Jews or other persons being admitted to take their seats in Parliament without being sworn upon the Holy Gospels; and, fur ther, to inquire and report in what manner Joseph Pease, Eeq., on taking his seat in this House, in the year 1333, made affirmation to the effect cf the oaths required by law to be taken by Members before taking their seats in this House; and also to inquire and 11)- 1 port in wha! manner Jews and other persons not prc fessing the Chri s ti an rel i gion nra permitted to make oaths in courts of justice and other places where an oath is allowed, authoriEed, or required to be taken." He believed those inquiries would produce important in formation to assist and and guide the House in arriving at a determina , ion as to the steps to be taken with re gard to the peculiar situation of the city cf London at the pi ()ran moment.—(Hear, hear.) It there could be unanimity in the question between both Houses of Par liament, to remove all doubt, that would be the proper course to be taken, but at the same time he felt it was of great importance that the privileges of the House, of which they had been at all times so tenacious, should not be heedlessly invalet l .—(Hear, hear.) He thought it would be quite impossible to assume that there was n o intention of Winging forward any Bill for the pur pose of at Wing this question. No one could suppose that the whole matter of the election of Baron Roths child for the city of London should be determined without inquiry, or should be excluded from the House, Or allowed to remain in his present position, or that the S N .