The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

would be Zuscell) b gard to the , hequer bad impost and ell, now let lon. Baronet nds. M t o Is, be (Lord mit of much s speech that ase the the countall/ e not at ,h respect to ;ht lion. l3a ich he (Lord wry part of it, at all looked 's looked for Secretary -at ,t a consider p in the co ea granted h e r tWhe party r.) i t h re . [ssell) was re. the n(glect ad 1844, was tt attention---• rc e of ten sail o )vver this great eences ear, by th e the estimates an could have those Causes ago. For is -342, the whole half a million da, and Chios, ima t e s for the 350,0001., was f the estinaaris tee amount, b° derably larger ired there r.) flowerer, njesty's llinl s he Would also eas y ons for this f they did s°l for a ro,,,hte' hear.) wou ld be thst , income- ta% a of tbe surplui of thin t!' been ; Le industry oano cotton-woo in l--• En t m ateria l Principles, 4 as proposed t° to the ta% ott . Baronet tb.e, 0 i n that articl G could n ot d° °weer, to 011ie nove, the eell'e pet to th e alte' did not ifisb beg iven 117 li 1 he d id 00 1 : uaftbe gall° eea rou ld have b; fi re -insu reAce a eman bad Op of the dutf., s elf the % m eri t 03, but of Ord, peaking, be 1 0 Lx burthensete, the case her:iii d, was the fe which At; the g hat t." to ht ieet tot t.# itletnan our fairness to In: d have co i° think tbat s per paid by th e tak es then there .0 plan to 0"°40 e t the finuse. ;lit 13010 he ascribe' ;be e changes been but fa t Spec cfole ad inforrnr" ole rease of reve 3 abont the P 740 had arisen. I ' D o far as cool‘lo,,tii louse, that, 103 Jou. Barone' „00 the facile° the Custotos4o his tariff roce fir sS • lei in th e ro c )0/. on the o,,ej )se unteuePhedalo, I the 7th sc",,if es by the affected 11, 1 ,, 5 lese sche°°':oulil ant wen, it V. the Ilightijouse' to the 00( en entire]) °oils' try, to 1)0,11ot to Mures, assor' nt and t he -a he If theY dd have s ay be Orec,e on which Pflosci Baronet prore'„e. By fron' another hot Goo. 13aro!„ of hose quesuo.t.oos re v Pinion o f Piobjett Ii regard to ,a S o le in tbot re-r ertir ics on Ivo ou ty principle core rosOu'idgea e nd lcn os` itc o, ere ac m ade re s t s°oee ; in tha',,, d ther e ) have the wooo persoh,, ic iFentlecosewtoDoPl, of on cotton on coal c001!0,0. had taken !, lication e t iciOlotlittli Q t l ap P 'fiti le 00t s cd Wairlo 3 5 r ev 0 11 j ut whi c r ent t o o by 3 b . 4 n , o le" and w l ' it b% t the sinciple tPogriog t in eerle°,.ertoil/ 'actures, or 0 . to, it, doing,ei°ll.l:o )parent v was but Se it . ol self, on befb,°t`b,?o )0 behalf ,+tbe Its he weleTti as ivjoreP Deg,/ .--(lle"'bi tY iOl3 ad approve,•dtt, by ill had 00 1 who l'adt e'h° the collego' Ole was a ; a h 0 OPP°) 013 coro nan oit) : ' as ore that otia id violeat !007,ca who OUP to it, but t oho iarticulathrobar;sootoll Bated,wl al ! on lola 1 that celi"°alltieg' ay with tbos e so t t o i t wee bJect' roO , found a Pe iegis Ls quite fit t'''t ler . to prele? ; from inorninfl.hip, 111011fACtOre,r5;1. r article in 0 „,/ of act was o'hotriter, it not to ii°oo9o' 'arilr the me of leg" o,bicil low and vi n 3 ise tiov o urag e lge of fro" .ttte, Well WOO t. 151 001 hear.) 1.010 id if the opin! bt , It Gioned were 10 the B and to and really itiee itrictions, .rrore and, with t'l .ie!P ;ondition oft ett jo. It 00. par°ric? bring about, oil, " from the 0110,0 propose to conitioo • total problui e( sugar at a clico, on colonle3'.ooiiv lo this by OA 0, 01a gooSce o' • was the Pr s' the Ilight Inf:5010 ilnething r°°4.,o9ose a., hear.) oho did riot ittl°l,"e here iy shnula cpt, 1).0 tar 000 r odoio • 010° 011 0 objeo xt.() ;ton, or 51,170; he: s ta ve Which ~cif, y, , s o seer It;fortere i .our OOP gel 62' -,...........- return for that sugar sent again to foreign countries, take from those eountries, as from Russia, for instance, hemp, tar, and timber.—(" Hear, hear," from the Oppo sition.) It is much the same to do this as to consume the sugar itself. I understand that, last year, though you had scruples with regard to the sugar of Brazil, your orders in Council admitted the slave-grown produce of other countries." Then, for instance, you would say to him, "We admitted sugar from Venezuela, we may freely That coffe e , cotton, and tobacco, though slave-grown. -uhat you and that we have imported Venezuelian sugar, and indirectly encouraged slave-grown sugar, the pro duce of other countries, but we have scruples which Prevent us from consuming slave-grown sugar." What would the Brazilian Ambassador say to this?—only laugh in your faces. lie had heard th e Ri g ht H on . Gentleman say that he did not intend that this arrange- Mein of the sugar duties should be perpetual, and that_ Ie would cont i nue the same mode of imposing the dut y on that article. The Right Honourable Ba ronet well knew that as long as the duties con tinued in their present condition the question would he continually discussed in that House, and if not introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be brought under their notice by other Hon. Members. With respect to the sacrifice of 1,300,0004 h . e did really think, without going to the extent of say pg that sugar, the produce of foreign countries, should b e admitted on the same terms as that of our own colo nies, that great alterations might be made, and a great approach t o f ree trade principles, at the same time main ning the revenue. He did not see that there was any e.atise for abandoning so large a portion of the revenue. with resp ect to the plan proposed by the Government, P r° Posing the reduction of nearly the whole amount of sur plus revenue, to within 70,000/ of the 300,0001. or 100,000 L which we possessed, they put, in its stead, the in o n , c - tax, or, u n d er suc h circumstances, in the words of the Ch ance ll or of the Exchequer, n three years hence we will have no alternative but to continue the f i n ti .eome-tar, or b e in a state of national insolvency. " — (Heart hear.) Ile did not think it fair towards the 'louse to propose such a question without rati ti , ° I I of the Government as to their intention,and whe ...,er it be their opinion that this property andincom_e- tax is one of the best resources which can be proposed to a Permaue nt revenu e . Thi s wou ld l ea d t h e H ouse f a i r l y to the consideration of the case, and they would consider . at the in , , S atne ti le, either through a Select Committee or f th - trimittee of the whole House, whether some o b e e great injustice and inequalities of that tax might not Rig reta t t i ed. With regard to commercial reform, the pri ti ll e i„f 4 m. .Gentleman hesitated . to adopt the right it s a li v le am F e not indeed when it could be done in an agree 'easy manner, but when they knew they would li st „ e t ° Contend with class interests and with monopo ile:',and when great opposition was expected.—(flear, i o „ - ,t) The Government ought well to consider the sub .-‘a and what the true interests of the country were ; 4 2 41 they should not, at all events, endeavour to ageTa !l'ate the monopolies which at present existed. 6His er , was, that they must indeed continue the income 140t for the present, but that they should not make all !letthe reductions which the Right Honourable Baro proposed. He thought those reductions might oe made on cotton-wool and glass, but with respect to the other articles, some of them he thought ought not to be touched at all ; and as to sugar, and some other articles, he would take quite a different course. His impression was, as he had already aaid, that protection was the bane of agriculture.— (Rear, hear.) He maintained that opinion as regarded all protective duties, Mr. Huskisson, some years ago, !lelived h ow i n j urious it was to silk ; and in Canada the ?litimber duties, which operated so favourably towards r colonists there, had been, according to the state -43_ ant of Mr. Macgregor, the ruin of many farmers who 7:speculated largely in timber. At the same time, he titttterdu that those protective duties should be with arawa gradually and cautiously, rather than suddenly PUY ; but of this he felt confident, that if they d ished i. to get rid of the income-tax, they must take ib i s mode of endeavouring to improve and increase retizaer reieasroguerrces of the country.--(Hear, hear.) If at the markets were opened, and if we admit imports, the demand for labour would ease, manufactUres would greatly extend, and hop e en d of five or six years more, we might entertain gee : that the income-tax would be abolished. The o roa , i tt was ! whether we were to have a perpetual in ----he ax and a continuance of monopoly and restriction aedere'te!ainied against both. He felt the impossibility, frora existing c ircumstances, of withholding his assent lilted the Proposition which' the Chairman had in his be con; with the hope that the income-tax would not erted into a permanent burden. The Right Hon. %ral e aar y t i nl an had taken such a course, as to make it neces 01)enetzahsure yearsuaat this tax should be renewed at the end of three th e ~,',. an so on from time to time; but he did hope that of this odious and inquisitorial tax had %uttered fro eYes of the people to the disadvantages they . , 44 4 by „„, r , ° .al commercial restrictions and monopolies, 'ageS. Seek ing to make trade free, procure great advan a4a iroponsottwth, e. least of which would be the abolition of Qrtt,d t nick in times of peace, never should be re kr 1,)* --(Loud cheers.) e disappointed ei* th ."()131101%.'" was at the conclusion i h el e Pert aa le c e_ch of .the Noble Lord, which he thought an finis khsN „unclusion.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial ,h ed J 4 !.e had reviewed every item in the Budget, but mohl a , with adopting any decided course. The thr 4, 041 k bar s " }ears new well enough that the income-tax for iet s lns only a phrase of the Right Honourable h 'tit h e :toe Noble Lord knew that it meant perpetual e %amid "id not take the Noble Lord as his model, th N . e ehl Lop os e a distinct amendment, and he hoped e r e „ . e a t 1 it t o u would vote with him, as he meant to ea -earl did hot dons ion. He believed the Right Hon. Gen able in net aet as he thought, and that he proposed b e to ear ' . right direction as he thought he would be f ail e d k new through both Houses. The Right Hon. h; 4 (1 il l ar , n e,w and appreciated the principle, but ti e t he li o r n Pl y a ipg it.—(Hear, hear.) He was deterred v ieuld - Members by whom he was surrounded. tt a l i ) rig„, i k . ask the Right Hon. Baronet, had he , term hi s estimate for the expenses of the army, or , I , J. 1 4 . r? Ilse po,sition in that regard . from that of last tog ..t riois, eould not ask the Right Hon. Baronet . sa. its mimeos alent had this country gained by maintain tiOaiti.shoulabee colonial establishment, but he would e o „, qr this matter for grave and serious considera wFaeloehiotnf.; `house, whether the country derived an expenditure incurred by maintaining eol o u s 4 shoulia,l e-stabl ishment—(Eiear, hear)--and if the se ts o, or tri.t.determine upon a continuation of this vast shoal's 4 it s I. l ' FEePire, so extensive that " the sun never 4ta to ps , . ,itnits," as the phrase went, why then they taid 442' their indulgence in this expensive luxury. Nti n 4 w ould which the Right Hon. Baronet tea t , g th at require for the expenses of the navy, in t o ° 43 a , a mount he had said the three great th e :I .„' , ' which the principal naval force was k sa Is ' fives of were China, America, and 11 / 4 1 4 '1 tw o o r,t . of Africa. Now, he (Mr. R.) would Nf e ; er eits, tila!uetn and come to the most expensive and 13 4 ,. o ''ece to 1, ,,' of IN est Africa ; and he would say, in th e "„ t !et t o t r ,: i a ,, fart, that all the efforts of the Hon. faik,,%ht fat uown the slave trade in that quarter by (4 ' - `i• er ld search Project had totally and signally "ar 1 would d tlf th ta r.) ,en in disaster to all engaged in it— t-he h e i rl , ll . "ion 40 w, he would come to another branch a, att,s , At R on. . and assuming the expenses stated by lies,*as theerreot be to be necessary, and his esti 'l:lo/ ' ue (Ur. H.) would ask the House what it ,_ Marabl II k sai d Pro pose d aronet proposed to do? It was . hate, or, rintl, ation ti th e (l wo uld to meet the deficiency which 'illi e of the income• tax up to that th e ze (ai r ,otner words that he wanted 5,000,0001. a I ' i ght ir' f bilek) ' it incumbent upon 1 , egi t; .._. oe . r , would say was he p ro •Ma to . Bare ) wou ld to show the House that this was 4 I,l4Pbsed to expenditure ; and that the means by which 61 4 11a de l l , b to whireahisQ this sum was not only better than , tPl vis ed. tit w as haute (Mr. Roebuck) would presently , c r -t li ous Th e I ti:4 , _than any other plan that could be thecore, e to rorui ,"' lion.. Baronet further called upon_ itceer ee. „,„ 4 or abolish certain taxes upon articles 15 4 1 ,,,,_ght it an. 4- '„oa he (Mr. Roebuck) would show that zili ttb oeveettit.(; bo(11:111.0extili joisti,doaneedts plan of increased taxation was mischievous, and that the taxes t t a a que te , la fact, wer e not those that ought to be plan ke a ( ~,,a t•, s i lt , t h i s Right Hon. Baronet's re ii ", sod •P'3' this —that with one hand he took 1 4 f T 1 ~w i th th e tb h o er e put thom on.—(Flear, t Itet twole "li 'lit Hon. Baronet said he only wanted, It' be 1 444 ;I,tlßht e ithe r Suns, while he levied five ; but taking it Theist, islionourati:'ll' he is (Mr. Roebuck) could tell the 'l4t 'Oh o 'e zaronet that there was an 1,,_ h e . ara.ble rar t , 4 tricorn and equitable mode of levying it. oh. • N me -tax , h his p ower 0 ma n as an unequal tax could be easily he to o ught to be taxed but in proportion t ette e l ta tned hf` a •l: and his power lo pay could only til ll ttl l , ti e e ar tk at aYnalls sources of income. It was also ei e ste lae as of p rofe r, whose income depended upon the t flt ta.itti vial:4ollra, tho s u lo g n h a L l s a b ie o e u o r m s e ho h u e l t d h n e o s t a b m e taxed to otloolte sitions • th7.Sia l "e deri ved h . e as that l ie d ice estate, is income from the possession of lob i,,rent p e o *". . (i lear, hear. Take two men in 1,.. ef itieLYear 'and a sl , e , res u l t o h is suppose one man deriving L itb eio a,e lo the Lake another with pro th fe e ss s io a n m a e l amount labours 14v , „die e htnydeßa,ros o l :mti '';th a e saoiYear i tle tri ea t 0t , , , e, andti from land ; present them both ffor°4lite trZe th for ty e (Mr. R.) would affirm that taking f age each, he who derived his thi, Io R 0 „ re the _ „ ti d get twenty years' purchase quay tt er , th e 10012rolessional man would not get one call 0; 3 e°lll d b u e eY.--( Hear, hear.) He did not Natt e4ti the inco,„.a Plainer illustration of the ine -14 t. sere 7 4 to t h e we - tax than that. He would now 1 , „ a t ~e t hi_ mod® in which this tax was levied, 111,isitoliat!try shoulda! ,Y that he did not think the people itl a . l "ein ta t a sys te m be be he to so annoying and tto::141:4 :::::i.:.. Ira(......no(aHr,ea:.e)ar.)lle was convinced it toy hA os te t oefildotstahiett.lid felt as i nquisitorial, odious, and He did think that 4 0 i o ti ttit % lett ; ./ tiri a d a t . o the amount of his income ought ite fri !I a il mor a l s of o irely it would not be contended th e .ete ht. ebb ka the People of England were at tstietit tt---.(iier the this plan could not be deemed 11 tt i 41 : 1 gar ' ea.) n o ltt Yste e st eou r looked upon it as Wh ' B op p taut at prose se; and by it the odious inquisi tiottat t ' e Xt °s u e - d t he Ri g n b t t t l! r ed would be avoided.-- ' (Hear.) Ibir, ' r t 4, ' . he purpose 400. Baronet continue this tax, ith gth ation to do 9 To take off a por °l4 f 'l t 11 Cirl Certai • ItYQid zed i h a d .., r0 n commercial articles ? In a,..s st an d. r, hear) H co a ,, ed t , nundr,„ i!„„posed to take the duty off of itilt tql.trily,„..'(uteihianz'atii,l; e o r f e n tartieles, w . hile he carefully the great interests of the a,(l,_(!...(,._areg, +., , 0 e had left that giant-tree the,inci 4:e . , h ea. b removed by more stalwart lute to t ,, in the d ay ` )— but he (Mr. Roebuck yin evils, 4 gr r "ists, B° ° ll come when those crying evils, threst, e .at evil s ° ll ld b e '„ the agrievuelitattiraa l w an a d y , — th ( eC c h o )1 , ,e ~, 14 thi , Wer e e in e n rs ia .) , th z,)„, t l s „,: m co o ti:atry....„.(llear, hear ) The first of ek e 4 firth a t er by the hand of *the Right lion. 0 el's andl rst 'rat elleh the most delicate and refined In. a to s la e artist 4 tl. 11 4 u ghle \ could give it.—(Great c & g,. r 5 , , , , r ' ) `chile ou st; te tl l L . INh at rn _ e the other he dealt with ,„ a ~.1,t., h4d ~ ore determined.(llear, hear.) TYaztt w as t 7, Predonlinating influence in that "e 40 , 6 "'"' - e of the lion. Baronet to them and to the colonial gentlemen ? To all he said, " Support me, and I'll support you." To the colo nial interests in that House, he said, " Support me on the corn-law question, and I'll support you on the sugar duties."—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") To the agriculturists his arguments wero equally potent.— (Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the reductions that the Hon. Baronet had made on the articles of timber and sugar, he (Mr. Roebuck) would deny th a t any benefit had resulted to the country by the reduction OR the latter, because if the duty had been equalised on sugar produced in all parts of the world, the same benefits would have followed, while the duty would not have been lessened. Now, he would like to see how the Hon. Baronet would explain upon what principle he had let in the Venezuela slave-grown sugar, or the enormous amount of slave-grown cotton.—(Hear, hear.) Could it be possible that these productions, being the result of slave labour, did not touch his feelings in favour of the slaves in those places as well as in other parts of the world ?—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had lost 13,000/. by his changes in the fiscal regulations as regarded sugar, part of which' went into the pockets of the West India planters and alarge portion was altogether thrown away. And why thrown away ? Because it was non-productive. And so with timber. Canadian timber was not only dearer but greatly worse in quality, and upon 'it there was a loss of 900,000/. He (Mr. Roebuck) knew this subject well, and if the Right Hon. Baronet and other gentlemen would go through the calculations they might see it now, as no doubt they would at some later period feel it.—(Hear, hear.) Canada produced its own timber well fitted for the mists of ships, but timber came from the Baltic at a cheaper rate and of a finer quality for all the purposes of building. But what would be the result ? 900,0001. would be lost to the Exchequer and yet the people would have no better timber, They were about to impose upon the country an income tax, and what was their justification ? Why this. That they were about to favour the country with an alteration of the fiscal duties. He (Mr. Roebuck) said that those alterations were fallacious in principle, bad in calculation, and led to no desirable result. He bad already reviewed what the Right Hon. Baronet called the necessity for these changes, and they had heard the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that they were neces sary in order to avert national bankruptcy. But why remit the duties on sugar and timber, and preserve to the country this inquisitorial tax ? He left upon the Right Honourable Baronet the onus of proving his (Mr. Roebuck's) statements to be incorrect. Be fore adverting to another part of - the question he could not help remarking that there was a very great deal of art in the scheme propounded by the Right Hon. Baronet. There was a something to mollify Manchester and Glasgow, and there was an attempt t o soothe the Noble Lord (Lord Howick) by the alteration upon coal.—(Laughter.) Sol far from agreeing with the Noble Lord, that no exports should be taxed, that might be the newest principle ; however, he (Mr. Roe buck) thought that the exports of the country were those which ought to be the first to be taxed, inasmuch as their customers, not themselves, consumed them. He considered that the Right Hon. Baronet had completely failed to make out his case. He had not established one reason for his changes. He (Mr. Roebuck) would say nothing of the auction duty, but he certainly thought that imposts pressing more severely upon the industry of the country might have been removed. The Right Hon. Baronet had, he believed, remitted that tax because of the enormous expense of collecting it. One word more about the remission of taxation. The Right Hon. Baronet had remitted the duty on glass. This would certainly benefit the rich, by lowering the cost of their chandeliers ; but the windows of the poor would remain untouched by it. The present step was in the right direction, and he thanked the Right Hon. Baronet for it. It was an earnest of a future time, when the monstrous monopolies of the country would be levelled to the ground. Let him not be mistaken in the resolution he was about to propose. He proposed to leave out of the resolution the words " professions, trades, and offices," not for the purpose of exempting them altogether, but of subjecting them to a regular system of taxation, such as he had described. Sir GEO. GREY said that in her Majesty's speech, at the beginning of this session, it was recommended to Parliament to consider whether it might not be expedient to continue for a limited period the tax on property, and to consider also whether those taxes which pressed more heavily upon the energies and the industry of the country should not be removed. The Right Hon. Baronet, in strict accordance with the recommen dation in that speech, had laid before the House his pro posed alterations. In the speech which he had addressed to the House on Friday last, after reviewing the state of the country, and his views with regard to the reduc tion of taxation, he stated his confident expectation that, in making a proposition f or th e cont i nuance o f t h e in come- tax for a period of three years, he should be after wards enabled to dispense with the tax altogether. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down had informed the House, with a gesture of disdain and contempt, which he granted would be well merited if the result should bear him out, that the tax would not be limited but permanent. He (Sir George Grey) trusted that the Right Honourable Baronet, or one of his colleagues, would give the House the grounds for the confident expectation advanced that the tax would not be renewed, and for their desire that that House would confirm, in consequence, the Right Hon. Baronet's resolution. He (Sir George Grey) had opposed the tax three years ago, hut he was prepared then to allow the imposition of the tax for a further term, provided that he had a certainty of its being again left to the House at the expiry of .that time whether it should be further continued or not. He could see no thing more reasonable than that Government should propose its continuance at this time, with a view to the removal of other taxes which pressed more heavily upon the industry of the country; but looking to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, he, fur one, could not discover the grounds for his confident anticipation that the tax would at an after period be removed.— (Hear, hear, from Mr. Roebuck.) He did not mean to go through the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet in detail, but he could not, like him, entertain the solitary expectation that, at the end of three years, the revenue would be in that state to enable him to dispense with the income-tax, and he believed that, if the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet were acceded to by the House, it would be a gratuitous sacrifice of a large amount of property without giving the country any equivalent for the sacrifice. He might assume that the Right Hon. Baronet was sincere in his desire to exclude from the markets of this country the sugar of those coun tries which encourage slave labour. But he asked, in the event of such an increase in the consumption of that article to pay the loss in duty, from whence the supply was to come? Were their colonies to supply 34,000 hogsheads, which the Right Hon. Baronet took credit fur to cover his deficit of 3,000/. ? He (Sir G. Grey) doubted whether the colonies could supply so much. He thought that the revenue would be sacrificed, and that the price would not be lowered lid. to the consumer, as had been promised by the Right Hon. Baronet, and the result would be to benefit the pockets of the gentlemen who supported the monopoly.—(Hear.) He believed that the Right Hon. Baronet had no confident expectation of excluding from the markets the sugar from the slave: growing countries, and, therefore, let them not hypo. critically assume that they could act on that principle, but let them at once sweep away the distinctions that had been hitherto preserved, and equalise the duties upon them.—(Hear, hear.) Any other mode of dealing with the question would but have the effect of making eeven more injurious monopolies than those that now existed, and he should, therefore, support the resolution of the Hon. Member for Manchester, that no settlement of the question could be 'considered but such as involved an equalisation of all the duties on that article. With regard to the amendment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, he (Sir- G. Grey) trusted, for one, that the Right Hon. Baronet might supply some ground for his belief that he should be able to remove the tax at the end of three years. He (Sir G. Grey) did not wish to see experiments or modifications tried upon it, for his own opinion was that the more obnoxious the tax the more likely they were to get rid of it.. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that differing materially in opinion as to the results of these alterations from the different gentlemen who had spoken, there were at least some points in which there appeared a great uniformity of opinion between them. The Noble Lord did not object to a continuance of the income-tax •, the Hon. Gentleman did not object to it ; the Hon. and Learned Member did not object to it, only he wished to introduce modifications into it. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet who had last spoken, that these modifications would only render the measure more obnoxious and altogether inoperative. Upon this point he thought they were generally agreed, that in the course of the year it would be necessary to increase the expenditure of the country by the amount of 1,200,0001, in order to keep up those establishments which could not be neglected without the greatest detri ment and danger to the country.—(Hear, hear.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last asked upon what ground his Right Hon. Friend anticipated that, at the period for which he had called for the continuance of the income-tax, he would be able to repeal it ?—(Hear, hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of- the Exchequer) would tell him that the Ministers grounded that anti cipation upon the experience of the past ; and that if the establishments of the country were kept upon the same footing as last year, they could, with perfect safety, abandon the income-tax, at present.—(Hear, hear.) That tax was imposed in 1842. It was then imposed to meet the expenditure, which exceeded the revenue, and pro duced a deficiency. It was now proposed to continue it for the purpose of meeting an increased expenditure, in the necessity of which all seemed to agree, and at the same time to relieve the country of burdens which pressed upon industry and commerce. It must be remem bered that when this income-tax was first submitted to the House, it was for the purpose of covering a large deficiency which then existed, and to release from burden a num ber of articles which were at that time subject to bur dens, by which commerce and industry were restricted. It was then supposed that by removing that taxation, a spring would be given to the indu s try of the people—so that ater an interval, which might last five years, but which, as his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) at the time stated would probably be no more than three—the industry and commerce of the country would recover, and the income-tax might be dispensed with. And what was the situation of the revenue at the two periods, when the tax was imposed, and at the expiration of the three years ? He would refer for an answer to the ac counts of the revenue in the throe years. In the ac counts of the, year ending the 10th of October, 1842, the ordinary revenue of the country, that arising from Customs, Excise, the Assessed Taxes, the Post-office, and the Land-tax, amounted, as near as possible, to forty-seven millions of money. The measure sub mitted to Parliament in that year withdrew from the ordinary revenue an amount of taxation above 140,0001. of annual income. —(Hear, hear.) But, on the 10th of October, 1844, the accounts show that those same taxes, which had been reduced by the amount of-140,0001, produced, not as in 1842, nearly forty-seven millions venue. Let that question be discussed on its own grounds, and let them not be l e d, s t ep b y step, into a position from which it would be utterly impossible for them to re cede. He believed that the course adopted would leave the financial affairs of this country in an im proper state. One of the causes of attacks made upon the late Government arose out of the posi tion of the revenue. Numbers were interested in the public credit and looked with a jealous eye to the state of the revenue, and when the present Government came into power they pro posed, in order to remedy the evil, the imposition of the in come-tax. The revenue was sufficient—the evil was carried, and a surplus had been obtained. But would they wish it to be said if, when they had submitted to this burden of three years, lie were again starting on the same course, when the Hon. Gen tleman proposed a system which would realise at best a sur plus of only 90,0001. Yet such he believed would be the result of the financial course of the Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman calculated upon 15,000 tons of foreign clayed sugar, producing 42,0001., 5 000 tons of foreign muscovado, producing 116,0001., an d 23,000 t ons o f British clayed pro ducing 375,0001. This made up the 43,000 tons upon which he calculated, and which would increase the consumption far beyond anything ever known in this country. But upon these 43,000 tons depended no less than 911,0001., of which amount, if the increased consumption did not take place, the revenue would of course be deficient. He would suppose that the in _reas.e would be half what had been calculated ; still there would be a deficiency of half-a-mil lion. But even supposing the whole were realised, there was one source of expenditure which ought not to be overlooked. Reports had been made by Government Commissioners recom mending the construction of harbours of refuge on the south eastern coast, and it was es'imated that four millions would be necessary to complete the work. He contended that no delay ought to take place in commencing those works. It was incum bent on the Government to begin within the year, and half-a rea:lion at least would be required for that purpose. He considered that the income-tax being continued for a limited period was a less evil than imposing new taxes. He did not think that voting for the income-tax on this ground was acting at all inconsistently with opinions which he had be fore expressed. He could only say, with regard to the amend ment of the Hon. Member for Bath, that if the income-tax were intended to be a permanent measu r e, th e propos i t i on of the Hon. Gentleman might be worth consideration, but as the tax was to be for a limited period only, he did n o t think it was necessary to make any modification in it. Colonel CONOLLY said, that judging- from the limited period during which this tax had been in operation he thought it would be good and sound policy . to continue it.—(Loud laughter.) In the first place the income-tax relieved the country from the deficit which the Hon. Member for Halifax bad warned the Government from falling into again, and relieved them from many evils which they had experienced. The Hon. Member for Halifax appeared very much to bewail the possibility of having so small a surplus as a million and a half. He (Colonel Conolly) certainly preferred this to a deficit.—(Hear, hear.) The income-tax had been the means of restoring the stability and the credit of the country. It had enabled the Minister to reduce the interest ma'am public debt. That was indisputable. He thought that in the position in which he was placed he was called upon to state why he thought the income-tax ought to be continued.—(Laughter.) He considered that it was a benefit to the country from whence he came.—( Loud laughter.) It was a benefit to that country, for it had relieved the great distress of the landed interest there.—(Roars of laughter.) It was a positive and distinct relief, and, up to the present hour, it had progressed in abating the distresses of that country. That was distinctly in consequence of the restoration of public credit. There were a great number of landed proprietors in Ireland, friends of his own, who had been distinctly enabled to relieve their estates.— (The Hon. Gentleman was here greeted with a roar of laugh ter from all parts of the House, which completely drowned the remainder of the sentence.) Why, did Honourable Gen• tlemen consider that no advantage ?--( Continued laughter.) All these advantages had been produced by the very measure which it was now by Hon. Gentlemen opposite sought to con demn. Hon. Gentlemen might laugh, but he could assure them this was the case. The landed proprietors of Ireland could now give employment to the labouring poor, for those landed proprietors could now raise money at four per cent.—. (Great laughter)—whereas formerly they were compelled to pay six per cent.—(Continued laughter.) The income-tax, therefore, had relieved them from their embarrassments. ( The House was here again thrown into convulsions of laugh ter.) He considered that the measure was a great blessing, and was calculated to invigorate industry and promote com merce. Railways had now sprung up, together with other schemes of enterp r i se , " f or capitalists," said the Hon. Gen tleman, "have now a probability of certain remuneration for their money." (This somewhat novel expression of the Honourable and Gallant Officer drew forth a burst of laughter, which was continued for some time, and renewed ag a i n an d aga i n a t i nterva l s. ) I t was very easy for Hon. Members to laugh, but he thought their derision would cease when they were compelled to listen.—( Hear, hear, and more laughter.) What had been done during the present session showed that there was a desire in this country to conciliate Ireland, and to do everything which was calca lated to increase the prosperity of that country—( Hear, hear, from Sir Robert P ee l)— an d h e b e li eve d i t would go far to cement the union between the two countries. For these rea sons he would vote for the proposition of the Right Hon. Gen tleman at the head of the Government. Mr. G. BANKES was not surprised at the light-heartedness which had been exhibited by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, seeing that the cause of it was the prosperity of Ireland. He trusted that that prosperity would go on increasing, and that ere long a sense of justice in the people of that country would induce them to insist 'upon bearing, equally with this country, the burden of the income-tax ; for he could assure his Hon. Friend that there were now in various parts of England depressions as serious, and distresses as alarmi ng , as th ose w hi c h h a d b een de scribed by his Hon. Friend as formerlyexisting in the sister island. The income-tax was imposed at a time when the agricultu ral interest was in a more flourishing condition. The Noble Lord, the Member for London, and the Hon. and Learned Member alluded to, made reference to that interest. They did not let it pass without remark, thaugh his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government, and the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not in any way allude to it.—(Great laughter. ) And he perceived this with regret, because that such distress existed had been con veyed to the Government in plain terms, and they left it to the Government to apply such remedy as was in their power. The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath spoke of the pre ponderating power of the agricultural i n t eres t, th oug h h e thought the Hon. and Learned gentleman l'ad not chosen the happiest time for such an allusion.—( Laughter.) But, if such was the fact that they had such influence, permit him to say he was unable to find any trace of it. Why, in the present Budget, everything was given to the commercial and manufacturing interest, and nothing to the agricultural.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member very properly observed, that the greatest attention was manifested and paid to Manchester and Glasgow, in the important reductions which had been made, which he (Mr. Bankes) as an agriculturist (and he believed he spoke the feelings of the agricultural interest) saw with pleasure.— (Hear, hear.) There was no jealousy of the manufacturing interest felt by the agriculturists. And, allow him to say, it was not only since the reductions which had been made that a preponderating influence had been manifested towards the mercantile and commercial interest, but in the increase of ex penditure the same objects were in view. —( Hear, hear.) For why was the navy estimate to be increased by upwards of a million? Why, because in China and the Pacific there were found new outlets and new opportnnities for extending throughout the world that power they happily possessed. It was to protect their commerce that this million was to be contributed and the agriculturists paid their share of the burden cheerfully. —(Cheers.) Was their army to be re duced? No. Was that because the army was wanted in the agrioultural districts? In the county be represented he did not believe there was a single soldier. The army was re quired for the colonies. But did the agricultural interest com plain of being called to maintain it?—(Hear, hear.) By no means. If then it was said they were a powerful and prepon derating influence ' it could not,at least be said they were a sel fish one. —( Hear,, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for London, who alluded to them, did not hold out to them that en couragement which they might wish to receive in ease they did not desire to continue their preponderance for the present Government. The Noble Lord dealt with them more ten derly than he did with other interes's, and he alluded with something of triumph to the silk trade. He said that before the monopoly was removed that trado was subject to great alternations of prosperity and depression, but at last the question was settled, but the whole of the silk trade in London were ruined, and if he did not mistake it was while the Noble Lord was in power, that there was a ball at which the Queen was requested to attend, for the purpose of relieving the distress of the Spitalfields' weavers. The silk trade con sisted of a small number of persons, and they were easily over come, but that was not the case with the agricultural interest, and the ruin of which would include 7-9ths of the people of this country.—( Oh, oh.) That was his belief. The case of the silk weavers therefore was no encouragement to the agricul turists. It was a d m itt e d t h e ot h er night, by the Hon. Alembe.r for Durham, that if they had a free trade, corn would be some thing dearer than it w as a t p resen t ; f or , i n t h e Ch anne l Islands, where the trade was free, it was dearer than it was here, so that they had that advantage from the protection which was complained of. With regard to the present vote, as it seemed to be agreed to on both sides of the House, he had no choice left but to agree to it, though, looking at the stateof the agricultural interest, he should be sorry to see a permanent in come-tax.—( Hear. ) Mr. WARBURTON said he agreed with the Rig,ht Hon. Member for Halifax that if the d u ti es on ar ti c l es o f consump tion were reduced, there would not be any necessity for the income-tax.—( Hear, hear.) He also agreed with him as to the impolicy of a differential duty on sugar in favour of the West Indies. They were now going to increase that diffe rential duty, because every one knew that almost the whole quantity of sugar from the West Indies came in the state of Muscovado sugar, but that which came from the East Indies was clayed sugar, so that that was a practical increase of the differential duty of 10s. by 2s. 4d. But he would not have risen on this occasion but for the allusion which had been made to what had fallen from him a few nights ago, by the Noble Lord and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Now, all he would say on the present occasion was, that he believed the prosperity of the country would be greatly increased by a permanent system of taxation-( Hear, hear)—because a far greater proportion of the tax, when directly levied, would come into the public revenue than when it was levied indi rectly.—(Hear, hear.) And he thought he saw some symp toms of an approach to such'a system, as contradistinguished from the indirect system, during the present debate ; and if the former were adopted, he thought it would be wholly to the advantage of the country, and that the great mass of arti sans and small traders would be particularly benefited by it But then he came to the consideration of in what manner that system of direct taxation should be carried on ? In condemn ing the system of direct taxation, as it was now carried on, he entirely agreed with the Noble Lord in characterising it as very unwise. —(Hear, hear.) The present plan of taxation, as regarded income 'and property, was to lay on the tax for a short period ; that was making a short annuity and a long one subject to the same degree of taxation. Npw, what could be more unjust - than that? It was condemnatory of the tax to lay it on for a short period. Now he would shortly refer to the substitute that was proposed by the Hon. Member for Bath. He did not care whether the income was levied for professional toil or manufacturing toll ; but what he would say was this, that the system of taxation was unequal when they levied the same amount of per tentage on income gained by professional toil, as on income derived from land. Now the substitute the Honourable and Learned Member for Bath proposed was this—he would take it that they were about to lay an income-tax on for one year, said the Hon. Member for Bath.;On the man who had property in land or the funds, he would lay on a certain per tentage heavier than on the man whei derived his income from manufacturing or profes sional sional toil. Why did he draw these distinctions? H'by might be for these reasons, that the person who . had t,,,t a _i ter terest in land for the one year, ha-I a reversionar)e, interest was its expiration. Now, to tax a persen n was utterly impracticable, and the conclusion impossible, the plan therefore of the Hon. Member t ilLe r t m h b:=B fro at m h for a short period was that was, that to lay on an must t e levy permanent,it with j u a s n t d i c t e o , a u n nj d u t s h t ey . c l o f u t l h d e n y o h t a d d o sit without anytaiil:l),:ottTiey p osi disposition. i on. If he the Hon. thought there was arlcha do that the Howie did not:c c :m ot , o th s e ho p w ro Member for Rye coming to a v ote he would support it, but as he saw no chance o f that, he should offer no opposition to th e present proposition. Mr. R. , pALMER thought that, looking at the condition of the agricultural interest, it was not too much to - stippbse that they should expect that something should have appeared but 47,974,000/.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he thought that an increase of revenue would be produced by a judicious reduction of the taxation pressing upon in dustry. The stimulus given to industry, when the re duction was made with justice, and upon those which should be best selected, would be such that in the next three years a result similar to that produced in the last three years might be expected. It was on that antici pation the Ministers grounded the measure, which, he trusted, the House would now sanction. He confidently expected such an improvement in commerce and manufactures, and consequently such an improvement in the revenue, as would at the end of three years enable the House to say whether any further change should take place or not. He had been surprised to hear the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) say that there was no certainty that i the reduc tion of taxation proposed would produce an ncrease of revenue, because there were some articles upon which reduction had taken place, and there had been no in crease.—(Hear.) With all deference to the Noble Lord, he thought he was not correct in his facts, and that if he were correct in them, he was incorrect in his deductions from them. It was true (as we understood), that in the case of wool—(Hear, hear, from the leading Opposi tion bench)—the increase had been quite commensurate with the reduction. The cost of the article had been diminished:. There had been a larger number of consumers, and those persons were enabled, by the reduction, to expend more in the consumption of other articles.—(Hear, hear.) But it was a very nar row view of the reduction and repeal of taxes, when the Noble Lord would have them look only to the effect of an increase in the particular tax reduced. If that doc trine were admitted, they should repeal no tax ; -for every tax repealed was, to that extent, a loss to the revenue. But, speaking from practical experience, every reduction or repeal of taxation pressing upon in dustry was attended with an improvement of the re venue.—(Hear.) He confidently affirmed that past ex perience j ustified their anticipations in the present instance. —(Hear.) Looking back to an antecedent period— (Lord J Russell, " Lord Althorpn—yes; at that period a reduction of taxes which had subsisted for a long term of years was effected. In the year immediately preced ing that in which his friends (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) and himself went out of office, and the Noble Lord opposite and his friends succeeded them in offiee, a very large repeal of taxes was made,"and in the two years following taxes to the amount of 5,700,000/. were reduced or repealed. That reduction apparently brought the revenue to be expected down to 45 millions from 50 millions and sonic odd hundred thousands ; but in the year that immediately followed there was an increase upon the remaining taxes of 3,500,0001., bringing the revenue up to upwards of 48,000,000/. ; and in the year 1835 the revenue was nearly the same as before the reduction took place.—(Hear, hear.) That was a proof of what might be expected from the judi cious repeal of taxes, and, taken with the result ofthe re ductions in 1842, justified the present expectations of the Government.—(Hear.) He could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman th e M em b er for Devonpart, that if Pro vidence blessed the country with seasons of average pro ductiveness, they would be in a condition to leave it in the hands of the House in three years to say whether they e snnin ,n w ntaaoah o ct: ni..uevuloetelr whether sseea a eorlf b odfart a renmi le n , dedoteyoshf expenditure,vmooio fu r Ho c auo.esuna n e t i.lw3p‘n continuenhaur desielcsttttheohhwn the same was enablei ste n l aeyn e xe o i lenc m l ece:a e sorhass - een t income-tax. mirnein x y" ttltpatooBoTox4tsa imposed. ftlo e ode;00. question d u i aret e Tmgcoe s utrh t ete i mleah o ayyn n i t were impased in periods of war, when it was not .neces sag to regard the effect which they might have in re • stricting oar commerce with foreign nations ; and their sole object was to raise from our own subjects the money necessary for the national defence. Those taxes had been continued in a long period of peace to maintain the national expenditure ; and it was not surprising that they should now be found but little adapted to the altered circumstances of the country i n respect to foreign trade and domestic industry. That being the case, although he admitted that the income-tax was direct and unpalatable, he thought the House should consider whether it was not wise to continue it for a time longer, for the purpose of relieving the country from those taxes which interfered with trade and national industry.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gen tleman who moved the amendment wished to relieve a class from the burden of the income-tax ; but he did not state the matter as if he so much wished an exemption for that class, as to obtain an exemption under the ap pearance of more equal taxation.—(Hear.) What was the Honourable Member's objection ? He (Mr. Roebuck) said that the real and funded pro perty ought to bear the burden, and that property which was not realised, ought to be exempt. That was the argument which was offered when the tax was first imposed. But Mr. Pitt's answer was, that it was wrong to arrange taxation so as to cause capital to be diverted from one line of investment into another, to ensure more profit. If you said that land and funded property should be subject to the tax, which other capital was not sub ject to, you gave an encouragement to the selling of land and funds, end the investment of it in trade and com merce.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of the was was the for i t i h ij e ust o i h ee . ject of a direct and actual relief of the of Exchequer) ccontinuing g w o thisuhl aske which public generally, from the pressure of taxes to which they were now subject?—and those were taxes which did not press more upon the mau of fixed pro perty than upon the professional man. The Hon. Gen tleman himself would be as much benefited by the relief as the capitalist or landlord. He would, equally with the public in general, be benefited by the reduction of the sugar duties and the repeal of those upon glass. But was the arrangement possible to secure that every man should make a full return of his income from every source? The Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) objected that the tax was inquisitorial—would it be less so if the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Roe buck) were adopted, or would the public feel it less odious than the Hon. Gentleman said it was, if it were extended to every man?—(Hear, hear.) It was now extended to a very limited portion of the public. But the Hon. Gentleman would have every man make the return upon oath. The Right Hon. Member for Des vonport told the House, that lie would not consent to that. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) concnrred in the Right Hon. Gentleman's decided opposition to that expedient.—(Hear, hear.) For years past the Le gislature had been endeavouring to abolish oaths of that nature. As for instance in the Customs and the Excise, which had been found to be wholly ineffectual. Let the Hon. Gentleman suppose what the effect of his proposition would be. When the tax was first imposed, it epplied (as he, Mr. Roebuck, proposed) to every per son, and the product was 15,000,000/. It now was sr) much limited, that it produced only 5,000,000/. The Hon. Gentleman had said, what was quite inap plicable to the case, that the test of insurance which was applied to clerks in public offices would serve as a test for the incomes of other persons. He could assure the lion. Gentleman that no such test was applicable. [Mr. Roebuck said he had not said any such thing.] To come now to what had been said by the Noble Lord on the subject of the auction duty. It was to him matter of regret that the Hon. Gentleman the last Chancellor of the Exchequer was not in his place, for if that Right Hon. Gentleman were at the Noble Lord's elbow, he would tell him that the objections to that duty were strong and pressing, and that he would have recom mended its repeal when he held office, if he could have suggested a means of meeting the deficiency. He thought that the Nubl Lord, with all his disposition to find fault with measures proposed by the present Government, would find it hard to convince that Right Honourable Gentleman, the Member for Portsmouth, that they ,were wrong in submitting the auction -duty for repeal. He did not think either that the Noble Lord would be dis posed to coalesce with the Hon. Member for Lincoln, in calling for a repeal of the duty upon insurance, in pre ference to those taxes now proposed for repeal. He would not now enter into topics which would bring on a lengthened discussion of details. Shortly before the time when he would have to go into the whole subject of the present measure, the sugar question would be brought under the discussion of the House by a motion of which an Hon. Member had given notice. On this subject the Noble Isird opposite was altogether opposed to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) The Noble Lord would equalise the duties, which, in his (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer's) opinion, would encourage slavery. It was, in his opinion (as we understood), quite another question in respect to cotton, to encourage the cultivation of which was not so great an encou ragement to the slave trade as the cultivation of sugar. But, as he said, he should reserve those points connected with sugar until the time should arrive when, the subject being fully before them, they would be enabled to discuss it •in all its details. It was sufficient to know that, generally speaking, the House was not disposed to object to the resolution placed in the Hon. Chairman's hands. It was enough for the House to decide whether con tinuing the property-tax for a limited period was a desirable measure. The Noble Lord had told them that the tax was liable to Induce fraud to enable parties to avoid making proper returns, but the Noble Lord forgot to mention those taxes which were not liable to fraud. Would the Noble Lord tell him whether there had been as much fraud induced by the income-tax as the Excise ? Whetherit had been so often evaded as the duties ofExcise? Whether there was a greater temptation in the one case to make false statements, with a view to being relieved from a small portion of taxation ? Whether there was not an equal, or more temptation to evade a duty which produced a large and more beneficial result to the party committing the fraud.?—(Hear.) Set the fraud on the one side and the fraud on the other, and he could not attri bute to this one particular tax that degree of liability to fraud which might attach to another. Fraud operated more or less upon every tax that was imposed upon the country (Hear.) The Hon. and Learned 'Gentleman had told them that in repealing the duty on glass they had abolished the duty on the chandeliers of the rich, but the windows of the poor were left without any re lief whatsoever.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman must have s p o k en upon t h e su bj ect without having first made hims e lf acquainted withitsdetails, or he wou ld h ave k nown the duty on chandelier glass was infinitely greater than the duty on crown glass.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, therefore, could not have given the subject due consideration.— (Hear, hear.) There not appearing to be ary disposition to maintai n any ot h er su bj ect than the one mentioned in the resolution, he thought he should best consult the convenience of the Roux., and promote the advantage of f a i r di scuss i on, by reserving any observations he might be inclined to make till the period when the sugar and other customs' duties should come before the House.—(Hear.) Mr. C. WOOD expected the Right Hon. Gentleman who last spoke would have g i ven some details to show the grounds on which he hoped that, (luring the course of the next three years, those sources of revenue w hi c h were left would so far increase as to en a bl e th em t o take off the income-tax.—(Hear, hear.) H e expecte d to hear .something more than a mere general assertion, that in souse cases the reduction of the duty on an article had been followed by an increase on another. It was a principle to which no one in that House could object. But the whole question turned upon what the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated, that a judicious selection had been made in the articles to be reduced. Was the selection so judicious as to warrant an ex pectation that the revenue would rise to such an extent as to justify the expectation that the Government would be able to get rid of this impost at the end of three years. Now, he thought, in the absence of any attempts to show this, either by the Right Hon. Baronet on Friday night, or by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that night, which articles were likely to produce this increase, it was only left for him to meet an assertion by a counter- assertion. He said, then, there was no reason able ground for expecting such a rise in the revenue.- - (Hear, hear.) He thought that the experience of the last few years showed that the hope expressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman was not quite so well-founded as the Right Hon. Gentleman was pleased to say it was. When the income-tax was proposed three years ago, trade was in a reduced state, and the tax was not likely to realise an extraordinary large sum. Since then, however, things had changed, profits had considerably increased, and hence the returns to the "revenue would be nearly double what was formerly realised. But he believed the income-tax was acquiesced in upon the assurance repeatedly made in that House by the Right lion. Baronet, that it was in tended to decrease a deficiency in the public Exchequer, and so soon as the deficiency was made up, the impost was to be discontinued. Now, they saw from this that the tax was founded upon a state of things which existed no longer, and, although another assurance was held out that it was to be continued for three years only, there was every possibility of its being made ultimately permanent. He thought Hon. Gentle men had said, however, that it was desirable the tax should be kept under their control, and that at the ex piration of three years they would have the power to reconsider it, but he confessed this was all he had heard to induce him to believe that the tax would be of a tem porary, instead of a permanent character. At the time the tax was first imposed there was a deficiency in the revenue of two millions and a half ; and he was pre pared to say . that this was not a sufficient defi ciency to justify the imposition of a tax of so oppressive a character. But as he had said before, the House and the country, relying on the temporary nature of the tax; consented to allow its oppo nents to remain in a minority, when the question was first brought forward. Had there not been such a pro mise held out of its non-continuance he very much doubted whether it would have met with the slightest approbation. It • was stated when it was first brought forward that the tax pressed more on the rich than the artizan. This was net the case, for the experience of the last three years had proved that the income tax was a burden on the employment of the . population of the country. There was another objection -to the tax. It was confined to England. Why should an Irish gentleman, possessing an income of 500/. a•year, be relieved from paying the income-tax. There was no reason why the rich man in Ireland should not contribute his share of the tax as well as the rich man in England. In this coun try there was some want of employment, but in Ireland the want was painfully great. The Right Hon. Baronet, how ever, exempted the rich Irish gentleman from the tax, and im posed upon him another burden, which induced him to spend his money in other parts of the world. Now, in no country was it so desirable that capital should be introduced as it was in Ireland, where there was a large demand for employ ment, and, to meet this demand, a very considerable capital would be required. The rich gentleman was exempted from the income-tax, and in its stead was a burden which pressed more or less on the great body of the people. They were told that in the reductions made on, various articles of consumption they would derive a benefit equal to an equivalent for the income-tax. Now, they had had some experience upon this of late, but he would defy any gentleman to get up and tell him that the country had derived any very material benefit from the former reductions made by ;the Right Hon. Baronet. The Government had taken credit to themselves for relieving the country horn certa'n duties, but it struck him very forcibly that his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) was entitled to participate in this triumph ; for it would be remembered that his Noble Friend voted with him when he made a motion, last year, for re ducing the duty on wool, while Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House swelled the majority which defeated his in tention. It was not a little remarkable that, on refer ring to the list of articles on which there had been a falling off in the duty, it would be found that there was no material in crease in the consumption. It was still more remarkable that in the articles upon which no change whatever had been made, a very considerable increase was observable in the re turns of the imports. In the import duties delivered, he found that with the exception of coffee no increase whatever had taken place in the articles, the duty on which had been reduced by the last tariff. In tin there was an increase, and also in coffee, but in four other articles reduced there was no increase whatever—that was in camomile, boots and shoes, corks, and damasks. There was one article, however, in which there had been considerable increase. lie found there were 600 tons of copper ore raised, he believed, by slave labour.—(Loud cSeers from the Opposition benches.) When they came to the other great articles of consumption—those articles with which the Right Hon. Baronet did not deal—they found a large and considerable increase. There was• a great increase in the im portation of oranges, India sugar, molasses, tea, currants, in which no reduction had been made in the duties. In raisins, an article of immense consumption, there had been a large in crease, notwithstanding the heavy duty imposed on them. The same increase was visible in cigars, sponges, ginger, and other articles. It would be observable that this increase was not attributable to the reduction of the duty, but on account of the great prosperity of the country.—(Great cheering from the Ministerial benches.) Ah, but this prosperity was not in con sequence of the small reduction of duty, but it was caused by circumstances. They had had, for instance, cheap corn. An increase had been made in the imports to China ; and really, altogether, this prosperity was attributable to causes not at all under the control of the Government. The impost was proposed to be continued, to enable the Government to make experiments in taxation ; quite a different reason to that assigned three years ago, and it was necessary that they should now form their conclusions upon past experience. Now, this past experience of tho last year or two, made it evident that the reductions proposed by the Government were not of a nature to make an important alte ration in the revenue of the country. It was necessary that they should satisfy themselves on this point, before they sanc tioned the continuance of this tax, as they would find it would become a permanency, without their being able to help them selves. Ile was aware that some Honourable Gentlemen behind him were favourable to its continuance, but he believed the majority of the House held a contrary opinion. Now, he wished to go over th e Right Honourable Baro net's statement. In the first place, in reference to the ex penditure. It amounted, last year, to 48,700,000/.; and it was proposed this year to increase it one million. He con curred ix the necessity of this increase, for the additional fortifi• cation of our ports would require a large expenditure. The navy, as far as he was able to judge, would require augmentation; and, under these circumstances, he could see no reason why the increase should not take place. The Right Hon. Baronet stated the receipts, from ordinary sources, to be 47,900,0":0/., and from the income-tax, 9,700,0001., making a total of 57,600,000/. The total expenditure fair - next year would be 49,700,000/., leaving a surplus of 3,400,000/., and with that sum the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to deal. He entirely concurred in the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, that they ought to leave the consideration of the China money out of the question altogether.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet, therefore, very properly omitted it. The Right Hon. Gentleman, with a surplus of 3,400,0001., proposed a reduction of duties to the amount of 3,310,0001., thus leaving himself a surplus of 90,0)0/. Now, the items upon which the Right lion. Gentleman proposed an alteration might be divided into two classes. Upon one class he reduced the whole of the duty ; and, so far as that was concerned, there was a total loss. This class included glass, the smaller articles in the tariff, coal, mad the auction duty. With respect to •the latter duty, he had not heard any strong argument in favour of its reduction. lie regretted that his Right Hon. Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was not in his place, for if he were he believed that it would be found that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had rather gratuitously assumed that he would approve of the selection of the auction duty as a fit item for reduction. He should not say anything in opposit;on to the proposal with respect to coals, unless it were that he could not reconcile the wisdom of taking off the duty new, with the reasons alleged fur imposing it two years ago. Upon these articles there would be a diminution of revenue amounting to two millions, and the Right Hon. Gentleman had not given them the least notion as to how he expected that that deficiency would be made up. He hid as sumed an increase of 500,000/. upon the Excise, but he (Mr. C. Wood) did not see the smallest ground for such an assump tion. Again, what right h a d th ey t o e xpect a great increas e in the receipts from the Customs ? He hoped that the increase, but prosperity would c o ntinue and even but there was no probability that it would do so to a sufficient extent. He would not now argue the whole question of the sugar duties—he would not repeat the arguments against the distinction made between slave-grown and free-grown sugar, but would deal with the question solely as one of revenue. He did not, however, understand the 70,000 tons of British clayed sugar which the Right Hon. Baronet expected to receive. Great difference of opinion had been expressed by great au thorities in reference to that subject. If the 70,000 tons were East India sugar, then it might be urged that the duty on West and East India sugar having been equalised, and on the faith of that equalisation capital having been sent out to India, large manufactories established, and preparations made for car rying on an extensive trade with this country, the parties who were engaged in such speculations had a right to complain of the conduct of the Government.— ( Hear hear.) On the other hand, if it were true that the East India Sugar would come in, not as white clayed sugar, hut as something else, then he anticipated that the benefit to the re venue was scattered tolhe winds. They were driven to the necessity either of admitting that hardships were inflicted on the East India speculators, or that there would be a loss of revenue to the amount of 160,0001.-(Hear , hear.) I t was quite clear that at present the difference of duty upon British colonial sugar was obout 40 per cent.; and he believed that if the proposition of s the Government were carried out, it would not be less than 100 per cent. The Right t Hon Gentleman stated that the highest quantity hitherto imparted for home consumption was 207,000 tons, and it would be found that 1711 pounds per head was the greatest consumption which bad ever been known of late years in this country. Taking the population at 18,000,000, 210,000 tons would appear to be the maximum amount consumed. The two statements very nearly agreed. Now the Right lion. Gentleman calculated on an increase of 43,000 tons beyond that amount ; and if that increase were not realised, the Right Hon. Gentleman would lose ene fifth of the income which remained from that source. He an ticipated that the increase was one which could not possibly be obtained within the year. He contended, then, that neither from the Excise nor from the Customs was there the slightest reason to expect suc h an i ncrease i n th e revenue as would enable Parliament to take off the income-tax at the end of three years. He had not the slightest doubt that if the sugar duties were dealt with upon different principles, the income derived from that s ource m ight be much i ncreased. They had not as yet derived the full benefit which might be secured from that source. lie believed that if the Customs' duties generally were dealt with in a proper manner, the income-tax might be taken off at the expiration of three years; but if that were not the case, there was no hope of obtaining such a result, might rely up on i t that they and Hon. Gentleme n o pp os ite would have to pay the income-tax all their lives. The result of the present system was to obtain only the minimum of the revenue. If the House of CoM mons did not interfere to prevent the continuance of this system of indirect taxation, there was no alternative but direct taxation. No other means would exist of paying the public creditor except the direct payment of the income-tax. It would be impossible without such a resource to make the revenue equal to the expenditure of the country. It was im possible to deal with the income-tax without combining w:th it other questions ; and he wishe s ,i Hon. Gentlemen to be warned in time as to the consequences of the system which Hon. Gentlemen had adopted and veere 'now pursuing. Let the question be fully and fairly discussed whether or not the income-tax was to be considered the permanent source of ro- THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 154.5. in the Budget in their behalf, especially when the large sur plus the Government had in hand was considered. He re gretted very much that it appeared not to be in the power of the Government to relax some portion of that taxation that would relieve them. lie hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would not be mistaken in supposing that his measures would do good, not only for the agricultural but the manufacturing inte rests; he thought, however, from what he had seen, that the greatest disappointment was felt with respect to the course pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet on Friday last. The House was now called upon to renew the income tax for three years, and according to the statements of the Right Hon. Gentleman he hoped that at the expiration of that period he would be enabled to give it up. He ( Mr. Palmer) trusted that the Right Honourable Baronet's hopes would be realised, and that he would find himself correct in that respect. The income-tax as a permanent one would be an intolerable evil. When the discussion of the income-tax took piece in 1842, he recollected what he said on that occasion, and that was, that those who derived their income from the funds or real pro perty, had a greater stake in the country than those who de rived it from professions or manufactures, and that therefore they ought to pay a greater rate of duty. He c , nsidered the income eax, as it was now levied, most unjust. He thought, however, if the proposition of the Honourable Member for Bath were carried into operation, it would have the effect of excluding those who obtained their in comes from professions or manufactures from the operation of the tax altogether, and that was never intended. He thought that this must be the case, for, unless he was mis taken, if these words were left out of the resolution, the par ties assessed under schedule 0 would be exempted from the operation of the tax. He agreed, however, that those parties ought to be charged in a ratio stenewhat different from the holders of real property. He could not vote for a proposition which would exclude them from the assessment of the tax altogether. Mr. M. GIBSON sakl, from what had fallen from the Hon. Member who last sat down, and frcm the lion. Member for Dorsetshire, in reference to the alleged neglect of the agri cultural interest, he must say, in the language of the Right Hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department, with re spect to Ireland, that " concession had been carried to its utmost limits."—(" Hear," and laughter.) It would be highly satisfactory if the Hon. Gentleman and his friends would point out the particular grievances of which they complained. The universal remark which he had heard made was, that the agri cultural interest enjoyed great exemptions from taxation, and that in distributing the national burdens, particular care had been taken to throw the largest amount of them on the com mercial and manufacturing community, and leaving, in many important items of taxation, the agricultural interest untouched. But he would not dwell on this subject, as the question imme diately before them was the income-tax. He felt a little diffi culty as to the course he should take on the preposition of the Honourable Member for Bath. Nor could he go with the Honourable Member for Kendal, though he agreed with him that' when a man got rid of his income he got rid of his income-tax also.—(Laughter.) There could be no doubt of that, and that he supposed was what his Hon. Friend meant. —(Laughter.) If a man could be supposed to be immortal, and to have enjoyed his income all his life, ho would also have paid the income-tax in perpetuity. But the more fortunate man who got lid of his income in three or four years, would not have that cause of complaint, as he would only have paid his income-tax for three or four years. But he (Mr. M. Gib son) could not look on the matter in this light. It appeared to him that there was a wide difference between an income made by professional and mercantile exertions and real property. But still he was not disposed to agree that the trading commu nity ought to be exempt from paying the income tax. He did not think that offices and trades ought not to pay some amount of income-tax on their re turns; but the most reasonable course would be, if some plan could be devised to effect it, to capitalise income. He believed that had been done in former times. He was informed by his Hon. Friend the - Member for Montrose that it was done in the property-tax of 1692, and he referred to the statute-book to find if there could be any possibility of such an enactment, and be found his Hon. Friend was correct. He found there that, in trade and manufactures, the capital employed was valued. Here the duty was computed on the interest which would be received on such capital. Thus, if a man's goods, or mill, or machinery, was valued at 100/., the interest of the capital was computed at five per cent., and the person paid on an income of 51. Now, in 1692, the Government was in great want of money, and unwilling to remit any portion of taxation. At that time there was actually a tax on births marriages and deaths, on widowers and bachelors ; yet even then it was not thought necessary to put the same tax on in come as was imposed on real property. Now, if that was done before, why could it not be done again ? He thought it would be a very reasonable proposition to move for a Select Com mittee to inquire whether some amount, and, if any, what amount ought to be placed on trades, professions, and offices, and also to inquire whether some less vexatious and inquisi torial mode of laying it on professions might not be suggested ? He thought that met the whole case. Disapproving as he did of imposing the same amount on income as on property, he should support the proposition of the Hon. Member fur Bath, but he should have preferred letting the present resolution pess, and when the Bill was in Committee, the Hon. and Learned Member might have taken the opportunity of pro posing by way of amendment some practical plan like that he bad alluded to. Mr. MILES said he had not on a former occasion objected to the income-tax, because he felt that unless it was imposed there could not possibly be any reduction of taxation that could benefit the country ; nor could any great reduction be made unless it was kept on for some time longer. If the income tax gave additional vigour to the industry of the country, and at the same time enabled them to relieve some of the direct burdens on agriculture, he believed it would be a blessing.— (Laughter)—aye, a perfect blessing—( Great laughter)—if it was imposed only for a limited time.—(Laughter.) If it was proposed to make it permanent, he for one would say, No ! He did think that the Right Honourable Baronet had introduced this measure with the best intentions, but he must say he had not considered all the in terests connected with the question. He found commerce and manufactures both flourishing, at least as compared with the two or three years past; but he found agriculture in a de pressed state, and yet there was no attempt indirectly to re lieve agriculture at all. He was not one of those to stand up in that House and ask the Right Hon. Baronet to take off the malt- tax, for, in the first place, his surplus would not allow it ; and, in the next place, he did not wish that the agriculturists should monopolise the whole of the reduction that could be made. But when the Right Hon. Baronet was asking for the continuance of a tax which amounted to 3,400,000 t., he did think that agriculture should be considered as well as manufactures and commerce. He thought, considering the party who immediately supported the Right Hon. Baronet, and the small remission which had been made in direct taxa- tion, a great benefit might have been conferred on agriculture, and on the nation in general, by diminishing the county rates. Great good would also 6e done by placing them under a better s!stem of management. Agriculture was greatly depressed, and agriculture was not relieved ; but he must say this, that he gave credit to the Right Hon. Baronet for such remissions of taxation as those on raw materials, on cotton, and on glass. But he did think that the Right Hon. Baronet weuhl'also have turned an attentive ear to the remonstrances addressed to him, he hoped in a proper form and a proper spirit—not by Noble Lords or Members of that House, but by farmers, know ing and practically exercising the trade of agriculture. When they stated their depression to him it could not be but all the past feelings of the Right Honourable Baronet must be touched.—(Laughter.) They have nothing but their representa•iens, and the voices of their own Members in that House, and he had hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would have been touched by their statements. But he was sorry to say that their hopes had been dashed from them. Though they contributed to the property-tax no less than 2,400,0001., out of an amount of 4,900,0901., yet no one single tax had been touched from which they derived any immediate benefit. The whole remission was given only to manufactures aid commerce; by that agriculture would no doubt be indirectly benefited, for he had always maintained that no interest could be benefited without producing an effect on all. But the only time the Right Honourable Baronet the other night mentioned the agri cultural interest was when lie announced the remission of the auction duty. But they were not asking him, as landlords, for any reduction of taxation, as he believed it t‘a.s the land lords alone who would benefit by this remission, because when agricultural produce was sold there was no tax upon it. It was for the tenants he spoke; and from the letters he had received, he could assure the Right Hon. Baronet there was a general gloom in the counties around the metropolis, who of course had had an opportunity of reading his powerful speech the other nigh'. He could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman that the greatest despair prevailed in these counties. They had looked to him t) protect their rights and now their distresses were passed over without vouchsafing a single farthing of relief after imposing on them a tax of upwards of 2,000,0001. All he could say was that agreeing as he generally did with much that was said on both sides of the House—(Great laughter)—he yet certainly could not sit down with that kind of spirit which would tamely submit to everything a Minister chose to dictate.—( Rear, hear.) Even if he steod alone he would at a future period give the House and those county mem• bers who had been returned by their consti tuents for asserting certain principles which he hoped and trusted they would carry out—he would give them at a future period the opportunity of stating whether in this great remission of taxation the agricultural interest was or was not to be benefited. Before he sat down he merely wished to suggest to the Right Hen. Baronet that in imposing the in come-tax again he should give to the tenant-farmer a right of appeal. At present they were taxed on half the amount of their rent, but had no appeal against the charge, whether they made any profit or not. Ha therefore washed them to have that right of appeal allowed them. Agreeing on the whole with the principle of a property-tax, he would sit down, hoping that this measure would be greatly and generally beneficial, yet at the same time expressing his belief that in bringing it forward the agricultural interest had been perfectly overlooked. Mr. V. SMITH thought the agricultural Members ought to take a straightforward and decided course, and should -not follow at the heels of any Minister. He believed the agricultural condition was one of great distress, but they should have voted for his Hon. Friend when he brought forward a motion for in quiring into the burdens which peculiarly affected agri culture. He admitted that there were some bur dens which peculiarly affected agriculture, in the shape of local taxation, but Hon. Alembers opposite were all silent regarding them, except the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Yet a most valuable paper had lain for two years on the table of that House, descriptive of the extent to which local taxation was carried on. He would not give to agriculturists the same answer as they usually received when they complained of their burdens,—to cultivate the land better, for he thought they had very great reason to reply that they could not cultivate the land without capital. We were now about to saddle ourselves with a t per manent property-tax, and it would be idle in him to rail agains t it, for under the cir c umstances of the ease he feared it . wa but too necessary. The Hon. Member fur Kendal hehadglri given reasons for the continuation of the income - ta x, which con fessed were to him wholly unintelligible. The Hon. Member for Donegal had given reasons for its connottintaance, which were have to pay it.— perfectly intelligible, because he would not peace of Ireland (Hear, hear.) The prosperity , had been adverted to in the speech from frinom language a a throne, e o f and had been since adverted. pp ito ; and if such were the case, triumph by inele-tax should not be extended he saw no pea H On w l e i b e t e l i ce s here gave marks of dissent which to Ireland.—( 3l r. caused general laughter in the House. )—He thought the Hon. Baronet had, with his usual adroitness, barely allud e d t o t h e 450 articles in the t ariff upon wl ia duties were reduced or abolished ; but the House should recollect, that from these 450 articles the revenue lost 320,0001.—( Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have, some days prior to his statement, laid upon the table of the House a list of those articles which he intended to affect by the proposed measure. He could not refrain from saying, that considering how many of the constituencies of Hon. Members were affected by this diminution or abolition of duty, the House had been rather taken by surprise.—( Hear, hear.) At this late hour of the night he would not trouble the House , with any further observations. Sir R. PEEL assured the Right Hon. Gentleman that to morrow or next day he would lay on the table of the House papers which would specify the whole of the articles now included in the tariff, and on which it was proposed to remove the d u ty. He had st a t e d generally that a remission of duty would take plate in the raw materials of manufacture. Surely the Right Hon. Gentleman did not expect him to go through the whole 450 articles? lie thought by so doing he would have wearied the House, and the mention of many of the articles would . . ~._r..,...,a . rather have pi ovolicd laughter. He was 13 y Wear from his lion. Friend that he had conside _ . glikeeitaille to 1 , -. ta w the distress which prevailed in ma . '-,-:. _ The lion. Member for Somersetshi ... truly, that he (Sir Robert Peel) h _ ekA ..L. _ tresses mentioned by members of • ifEsa,S : t . fi i ' - 7 which waited upon him.—(Laug 1 ): esV*Ute - : "ax s . • touched with the statement made b mesch,"Fsfr&is' - is .. s . tion. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Palmer itl - heediel-not - o f i rr e a any sympathy with the sufferings of ilnlititiett.:Ofht, on a previous evening, he had stated most explicitly his belief that in some parts of the country severe agricultural distress prevailed. But be thought this distress was in a great degree local, and in a great degree attributable to the influence of the seasons. In some parts of England, during the early parts of last summer, the drought was very great, and the hay end turnip crops had suffered to a very great extent, but yet to could not say that this distress was universal, for in the ncsctli of England, in Scotland, and in Ireland, the harvest was rather abundant. He wished it was in his power to provide any effectual remedy for the distress which prevailed; bat the House must know it was very difficult to provide : a remedy for local depression, particularly when . tijat depression was the result of einfavoirable seasons. He had heard it stated that he had no sympathy with the sufferings of the agricultural classes. Now, he begged to re mind his Hon. and Learned Friend that in his address to that House at the opening of the cession, he did express his belief that very serious distress did prevail amongst the agricultural classes.--( Hear, hear.) But that distress last year was pair tie!, and principally owing to a great drought. • The hay har vest in some districts had been a failure, but that viSas confined to certain districts. It had not been felt in Scotland or in Ireland. Front the former coun try there had been no complaints of the harvest ; and in the latter the crops had been very abundant. But i if the crops had failed in those countries, lie doubted if he mild be called on to provide a remedy against such an occurrenee s s-. (Hear, hear.) He sincerely wished he could suggest some mode of relief for local distresses in agricultural districta a ;— ( Hear, hear.) But it would be very difficult, if not impossible to do so. One suggestion had been offered to him as a remedy —namely, that the malt-tax should be repealed. Now he did believe there were certain taxes that did press .heavily upon certain agricultural localities; but with regard to th e malt-tax, he would say, he did not think it was such a one as that the repeal of it would afford the relief suggested.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peed) was opposed to the repeal of this tax in the year 1835 for the same reason, namely, that such a step would not give general relief to the agricultural classes.—(Hear.) It would perhaps, have given relief to one class of persons, namely, the brewers —(Laughter)—but general relict it certainly would not give. —( Hear, hear.) Nothing could he more able than the manner in which his Hon. and Learned Friend had made his state ment ; but he (Sir It, Peel) did not think his Hon. Friend had succeeded in showing that the malt-tax was one which born with peculiar pressure upon the agricultural districts.—( Hear.) Neither could his Hon. Friend say that the income-tax pressed heavily upon the agriculturists, for this reason, that it was not paid by any one engaged in agriculture who had a less income than 300/. a-year.--( Hear, hear. ) But again lie would say that he admitted that local taxes did press heavily upon certain portions of the community ; but it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for the Government to interfere with it.—( Hear; ) Ho would say that he did think her Majesty's Government had acted judiciously in defraying the expenses of criminal pro secutions in some instances out of the Consolidated Fund; but it would be very imprudent if they inter fered with those taxes which were levied for the purpose of making and repairing roads and bridges.—( Hear, hear.) For it was very important that such taxes should be under the control and management of the people of those localities who had to pay thetas.—(Hear.) This, however, he would say, that it was his firm- conviction, that if that House supported the measures he had proposed, the ultimate relief that would result to the community at large would be found to be more really beneficial than if he had repealed all local taxes, and had paid them out of the Consolidated Fund. —( Hear, hear, and cheers.) If his Hon. Friend was of opinion that it would be expedient to repeal the malt-tax, he certainly must be embued witfi a sympathy for a peculiar class.—( Laughter.) But the repeal altogether of the duty on glass and on raw cotton would be found, eventually, to be most beneficial to the agricultural classes.—( Hear.) Indeed he could not conceive a class who would be more benefited by those two measures than the agricultural labourers. When the heavy duty should be removed from that material spade of cotton-wool, which was generally worn by the labouring agri culturists, they would then be enabled to purchase their clothes at a low rate, and surely that would be a boon. Then with respect to glass, surely when the duty upon an article so necessary to the comfort of all classes should be reduced from Is. to 3d. or 4d., was it not clear that the landlord, the tenant, the peasant, and the labourer would derive benefit from it ? (Hear, hear.) With respect to the proposed reduction in the auction duties, he begged that the House would not take a lusty view of that, until they hid the proposition fully before them.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord opposite had taunted him, in respect to this tax, with repealing a tax • which nobody had objected to. But he hoped the Noble Lord would read the opinions of Sir Henry Parnell and the Chairman of the Stamps and Taxes Department, upon this subject. He (Sir 11. Peel) would move this evening for certain returns in reference to the fees paid at certain auction sales, and then the Noble Lord would see if it would not be a material benefit to that branch of commerce to have it proceed in future unclogged by any tax.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord quarrelled with him (Sir it. Peel), because the army and navy estimates were so high, but he hoped to be able to satisfy the house sod the Noble Lord that those esti mates were not larger than the present necessities of those branches of the public service demanded.—( Hear.) However, upon this subject he would not dwell, as it would be very ungratefal in him to quarrel with one whose support he understood he was to have in his proposal for a renewal of the income-tax for a further limit; and, therefore, he would sky no more uson that subject.—(Laughter,) When the Noble Lord had first said he should oppose that measure, he (Sir R. Peel) should confess he was most agreeably surprised at bear ing the Noble Lord say, at a subsequent period, that he would vote for the continuance of it— (Laughter)—and he begged to assure the Noble Lord that, great as was his surprise at hearing this announcement, it was not greater than the plea sure he now felt at having the honourof his Lordship's support —(Renewed laughter)—and let him add the hope that nothing he had said that evening would have the effect of shaking th e Noble Lord's re s ol u ti on . —(C on ti nue d laughter.) Perhaps, after all, if the Noble Lord and his colleagues were sitting upon those benches—(Pointing behind him amid much laughter)— his Lordship would find that, no matter from what source de rived, the addition of the 5,200,003/. of the income-tax a very comfortable thing—( Loud laughter)—and would gravely declare that that tax was for the public benefit, and ought to be continued for a further limit.—(Loud laughter.) Certainly they might have a discussion in that Committee, when the Hon. Member for Kendal brought forward his mo tion—(Laughter)—when the Hon. Member for Bath brought forward his motion—(Laughter)—or when his Hon. Friend the Member for Somerset brought forward his motion.—( Con tinued laughter.) He certainly thought that the House had seen enough from .the preliminary debate to come to a right conclusion upon the subject. Then, wiih respect to funded property, it was said that it was a great injustice to tax it, as the country had entered into an engagement with regard to it that it should not be taxed ; and when Lord Sidmouth attempted to introduce such a measure in 1803, Mr. Pitt got up and said that it would be a viola' ion of the public faith to allow fluids raised on a distinct engagement that they should be free from all claims, to be subject in the same manner-as other property to the burdens of the country. He found it necessary, theretore, to draw a distinction between permanent and temporary in censes and the property entitled to claim exemption. But the opening up of that subject would induce a discussion which ha was anxious then to avoid. But he could nut resist saying that in the mode of testing the exemption in such a ease, the circumstances atterrling the scrutiny would be just as stringent and es inquisitorial as any that had taken place under the operation of schedule D. They would have to go into examinations for the purpose of determining the nature of the property ma which the duties were to be levied, and as he had already said, a new inquisitorial tribunal would be established, much more onerous taan that which had linen complained of ; and he would just ask the House if, from the very nature of the tax, it could be otherwise ? He very much doubted; in the case of such taxes as glass and cotton, whether the sum remitted could be said to be abstracted from the per manent interest of the country, because the remission of such taxes gave an impulse to the creative powers of their trades and manufactures, In respect to wines and articles of luxury, they might escape that tax by not consuming the articles ; but in respect to the articles reduced—let them say cotton and glaq—theY were articles of manufacture of which they were a component part, and by the increase of labour in which, the workman would be enabled to buy absolutely necessary articles, as wearing apparel, cheaper than before, thus amply compen sating for the general pressure of the income-tax on the com munity. What was it that he would propose afterwards? Why, that a person having 5,0001. a year should contribute about 14t/. towards the maintenance of the credit of the country, and he would ask them that day, not merely to increase the expenditure, but to make an experiment, and if that should not succeed—if the country should not derive any immediate benefit from it, they might afterwards reconsider their present determination. He (Sir R. Peel) was asked by the Bight Hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonport (Sir G. Grey), if he could give any assurance that the income-tax would expire in three years? He answered to that, as he did on the other night, that he calculated that the taxes removed would increase the consumption of other articles; but he was free to sty then, :in experiments of that kind, three years was rather a limited period—rather a short experiment, and he would own that he would rather himself have extended it to five years. He had good ground for enter taining a rational expectation that at the end of three _years h e Right Hon. Gentleman that his ground was this. e would be at liberty to discontinue the income-tax. He told th popu lation of the country was greatly on the increase , co sequent consumption of articles paying duty wo u ld a b n e d g th e r e eae n r. - They had I, and by the application m o n a s n u d m f p o .. r a vast amount of surplus capita f industry their manufac- The population of the country was on the inc rease. of that capital to various branches labour, and the d ema nd for labour would find that the trade of last increase incread the de c tureswould increase; they should haovean. tion of th e country. They would the declared value with 1843. In 1843 ii 8 f year had greatly adva nced, if the y looked at the declared val ue o f wasthseo exports ,6so,ooo I.w,abse being anl2i,nocoroe/a. increase over n 4the4 declared value of 1843 of 5,838,000/. in the cour se o f t h e year. the declared value 1844 as compared the declared value of With a surplus capital applied to the internal impro vement of the country, he thought it a rational prospect that at the end of the three sears there would be such an increase of revenue that the House might be safely asked not to continue the income-tax for a longer period. On the Ist of April, 1848, the income-tax would expire, but the duration of the income-tax, subject to the half-year's tax of 1845, would extend overfour years. He could not foresee what events might occur to render the sur plus which might remain in 1849 necessaay. The Hoti:e might be of opinion that he should not be held to an engage merit, that at the end of the specified time tha'tax should ne cessarily cease. He would only say that he had:reason to think there would then be a fair opportunity to consider whether or not it would be for the public advantage that the tax should then cease, or that it should be continued for the purpose of affording a revenue. He certainly made the experiment with confidence, and whatever happened, he was sere the House would be determined to maintain the public credit. The Right Honourable Gentleman the Member fur Halifax thought that it was possible the sugar duties would not answer the expectations formed of them. They might not recover se rapidly as might be wished ; but he would remember that for the two years to come. Then there was an additional revenue of 600,003/. for which lie did not take credit. Suppose a falling off in the sugar duties in the course of next sear ; the rest of that sum would, of course, be available to set off againstany diminution in the sugar duties. These were grounds which it was impossible to expose to any accurate calculation. wh quite admitted, with the Noble Lord, that his e xperiment might be a'tendcd with some losso, xf, f m oney- But as to the political economy L u which considered that of the Noble necessar ily to be condemned because they occasioned a l o s s reductions of the t a riff were of revenue, he must say, when the Noble Lord made his declaration of it, that, on such a : 0 extraor dinary declaration comi ng sub j ect ' it was - i a titl m ed - as the Noble Lord was, to.the credit of being a financier.. froid 'pers on ; e If they had found concurrently with - __, -7