The Sun. — London, England, 1850-02-09 00:00:00

a nature that they should be prohibitory against the produce and manufactures cf other countries. He thought that was called fens is return for the protection and defence which this country gave them. But next, as to the mode of government. It appeared to hire; that as a general rule they could not do b etter than re er to there msxims cf policy which governed our ancestors on this subject. (Hear.) It appeared to them that wheresver Englishmen went they should enjoy English freedom—(Hear, hear)—snd have English institution*. (Cheers.) They acted justly and wisely. They actei, he believed, for the immediate harmony of the mother country and her colonies. On this sub ject let them see how they stood. He had in his hand a declaration of a number of gentlemen—he thought some twelve or fourteen Members of that House, and some three or four Peers of the other House of Parliament—in regard to colonial policy. The question of those gentlemen forming themselves into a Committee, and putting themselves in communication with the colonies, is one which I consider of very dubious character.—(Great cheering.) In their character as Members of both Houses it was perfectly competent for them fairly to declare what their views and opinions were, and to call upon us to show our reasons for dissenting from them. If they had done that he (the Noble Lord) should not have complained. They say it is right to grant to the colonies power to administer their own affairs, and that the colonies, which were at the present either formed in their population, or were forming it, should have the perfect management of their own matters. They stated that there were the North American colonies, the South African, the Australian colonies, Van Die men's Land, and New Zealand. He would take these in order, and state what had been the policy of the Govern ment regarding them. With regard to the North Ameri can colonies, he would take Canada. In 1828 there were very grave dissensions between the Ministers of the Crown and Canada. The Ministers of the Crown thought that they were justified in applying the money of the Canadas without asking their consent. Mr. Huskisson proposed an inquiry into the matter. Parliament spent much time in the discussion of it; Committees sat and Commissions were ap pointed. Soon after that an insurrection broke out in the Canadas, and blood was shed there. The Government afterwards proposed the union cf the two provinces to give ample power to the Legislature.' The popular party of Canada wished that the Ministers should be of that party to which the majority belonged. When Lord Glenelg held the seals of the Colonial-office, Mr. Baldwin, who he believed was now in office in Canada, came over to England, and as Lord Glenelg could la t see that person, he wished - that he (Lord John Russell) should lee him. They met with the feeling that each would have widely different ideas, but fifer mutual con versation they found that they perfectly agreed—in fact, that they had arrived at nearly the same results with respect to the government of the colonies. That go vernment had been conducted of late }ears in cos formity with what he belived to be the opinion of the_people of Canada. When Lord Elgin found that the Ministers in office had not a majority in the Legislature, he proposed that they should go to an adverse vote or dissolve the Assembly. They chose the latter, and a dissolution took place. The elections, however, gave a still greater majority against these Ministers, and Lord Elgin there fore placed the government in the hands cf their oppo nents. Nothing could have been more fairly carried out. He (Lord J. Russell) had, however, seen bitter complaints as arising oat of the matter; and he had seen that some persona even proposed that the United - Province of Canada should be annexed to the United State.. To that proposition the Crown and its advisers could give nothing but a decided negative; and though such a proposition had been mooted, he trusted, from the character of those persons who belonged to the association, that it was not their intention of placing themselevs in connexion with a neighbouring state by force cf arms; but that knowing the determined will of the Sovereign of this country and her responsible advisers not to per mit such an annexation, they would acquiesce peaceably in the desire of the Crown. He (Lord J. Russell) won- dered also, how any persons professing l o y a l t y cou ld entertain such a project—a privet which, in the event of any international difference between England and the United States of America, woull place them in the posi tion of being opponents to her Majesty, and cause them to fight against the British flag.—(Hear, hear.) Such was the present condition of Canada. If the ministers were sustained by public opinion and the Majority if the Assembly, they would remain in office; but, on the con trary, when they were no longer sustained the Governor- General would take other advisers as a matter of course. With respect to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, the legislative body was the same as the executive. But when Lord Glenelg held the colonial seals a change was made in the Executive and Legislative Council in such a manner as to conciliate the opinion of the provinces and to command the majority of the Legislative Assembly cf Nova Scotia. And he had not heard cf late years of any cf those unhappy dissensions which used to prevail whea the Executive Council was found in a small minority. With respect then to Canada, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia, the principles those gentlemen wished t o intrc deco h ad already been carried into effect there. The consequence had teen, and must be, that fewer ques tions had been brought before the Secretary of State fir the Colonies than used to be the case, relative to official misconduct and to local affairs, which, if course, were difficult and embarrassing for a Colonial Secretary to decide. Theta matters, it appeared, wore now settled in the colonies, and the government was carried on with less resort to this country than before.—(Hear.) He would now revert to the Soath African colonies. The chief of these colonies was the Cape of Good Hope. With respect to the colony of the Cape of Good Hope, of late years there has been a good deal of discussion as to the expediency of introducing representative govern ment. Lord Stanley, when Colonial Secretary, had the question under consideration, and without absolutely re fusing to introduce repreieneative government, that Noble Lord pointed out the many difficult circumstances which had to be considered before a decision could be arrived at. These and ether difficulties had been dis cussed by the present Governor, the Chief Justice, and ethers of competent knowledge, and the result was that the Government had come to the decision that reprasen 'Wive institutions should be introduced into the Cape of Good Hoge colony.—(Hear.) With respect to the re presentative assembly and change of franchise, those were matters he would not now enter into, as they were in the hands of men who we o better able to judge of their expediency. He would, however, say that the re presentative assembly would be chosen from persons possessing a certain amount of property, and otherwise qualified as in the case of Canada.—(Hoar, hear.) But when a question arose as to the formation of a Legisla tive Council en the model of other colonies, her Majestys Government came to the conclusion, instead of imitating th constitution of Jamaica or Canada, it would be ad vOble to introduce such a provision as would place the power of electing to a seat in the Legislative Council in lie bands of persons having a higher position and quali cation than representative assembly electors. These, he conceived, might be persons named by the Crown, of weight and influence in the colony, such as magistrates, and others selected by the muni cipal council as entitled to fill the highest offices in the colony. It was proposed that the representative assem bly should have a duration of five years, and the legisla tive council of ten years; but half of the number to be elect d at the expiration of every five years. Something like a constitution of this kind, though differing in a few particulars, was the practice in Belgium. Instead of an hereditary council and elestive council, there were two chambers, the duration of which was eight years, half to be elected every four years. Of course the experiment was new, and it would be presumptions on his part to say it would entirely succeed. But an order in council had been passed; and that order in council, and instructions thereupon founded, would be sent out to the Cape; and . any amendment to the &tells which might be deemed re quisite could be considered at the Cape before the mea sure obtained final sanction. The next colonies to which those gentlemen referred were theA us tralian colonies, Van Diemen's Laud, and New Zealand. With respect to the Australian colonies, the Bill which be proposed the chairman should obtain leave to bring in will disclose the intended legislation cf Parliament on the subjec'. The me asure he proposed to introduce was nearly the same as that of last year. It eat not on the principle of having a council and assembly, in imitation of the go vernment ( f this country, though this was the most popular sort of syettm in the colony. * He proposed there should be a council, two-thirds of which were to be representatives sent by the people, and one-third named by th e governor. T he reason for adopting this proposal was that, after a great deal of deliberation, it was the plan already adopted years ago, and finally sanctioned by Parliament in 1842. Since that time it has been found to be so acceptable to the population of New South Wales that, upon the whole, as far as it could be ascertained, it was believed the colonists would prefer that term of government to that which had more analogy with the form of cur own govern meet.—(Hear, hear.) For his own part, he would only say he was anxious to adopt that form of government which would be most agreeable to the views of the colo nists themselves; and if in New South Wales it had been clearly the prevalent opinion that it would be advisable to leave the present form, and to adopt the form of a council end assembly, Goyernmer t would have been ready to adopt the suggestion, and the Committee t) which the matter had been referred would have proposed a different constitution. He would further say that his Noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies had considered, with regard to these questions of colonial government, on all the greet principles of government which are to be determined with respect to the welfare of the colonies as well as with resp ec t t o o th er q uestion.) of difficulty, that the most ad v i sa bl e course was t o re f er those questions to the Privy Council; and Lord Camp bell, Ste E. Ryan , and the Presid e nt o f th e B oar d o f Trade, had accordingly sat and given their maeured at te Lion to the subject. He believed such p la n wa s m ost advisable, as it ena b led the Secretary cr t a the Colonies to discu ss w i t h others theveriusptroposi tinns, and to come to a better decision than if be deter mined them alone.—(Hear.) These were the laws ' of government they proposed to g i se to New South `Vales Government proposed to g ive the' and he would add, co lony the power of altering the constitution i n that re spect, and if in the opinion of the colonil•s it would be better to resort to a government of legislati ve council ' and assembly, there would be no restriction on thepyiatsht of the Government to such a change.—(Hear.) With Tasped to other matters there would be a considerable change from the BM proposed last year, for then Go vernment proposed that the customs duties of N ew South Wales should be the same for all the Australian colonies, until altered by tee proper authorities. Though he thought the customs duties ought not to vary in the Australian colonies, it was at the same time thought ad • • ale that this should not be enacted by Parliament, 14‘ tltit colonies sho u ld b e l e ft t o se ttle it among el• 1 Pcny.eparaent proposed that the district /ti' s e 0 - 11/ ip-}diesiiid be separated from New South -4.- 4 4 4 1 5 9 r, , . e .. 719.1: Di' \ adifferet district. Government 0 , 0 ;( 1 0 , 47 ;. Diemen's Land the principle of ( c.i.- -, -: ' 41, -, -,- -- . - fit - i• A. ,---. elective legislative councils, similar to the other colonies, and it was proposed to extend to South Australia councils on the same model. Government proposed, on the preposition of two of the colonies, to have an Assem bly different to that ef the Australian provinces, which assembly should have other powers that might be use fully employed on questions affecting the interests of the whole of the colonies. With respect to that body it was likewise proposed to refer to it the power of dealing with that question so important in the Australian colo nies—the price cf waste lands. After many changes on this subject, Parliament enacted in 1844 that 20s. an acre should be the price fixed for the waste lands of New South Wales, and in the Australian colonies, and that price was not to be capable cf alteration. Government now thought great mieehief would ensue fan alteration was made in one colony and this alteration was not ex tended to all the other colonies, because it would set one colony bidding against another colony for emigrants. Government therefore proposed, if an alteration was made, to extend it to all alike. He did not know that he need now enter into a further description of the Bill, because the Bill cf last session was in the hands .of Honourable Members, and the new Bill would soon be ready, when he trusted its provisions would all be maturely canvassed. He had, he thought, stated enough to show that in the North American colonies, and in the Australian colonies, it was the disposition of Government to introduce representative institutions, so as to give fall scope to the will of the people to ,work out their own prosperity, as a better system than if their affairs were regulated by ordinances from this country.—(Hear, and cheers.) With respect to New Zealand, Government began in 1846 to show a disposition to confer representative institutions, but it showed too much haste on the subject. The able Go vernor of New Zealand had since pointed out the fact of the existence of different native races in New Zea land, and that a different system was requisite than would be the case in North America, New Holland, and Van Diemen's Land. The Governor pointed out the amount of capacity for a system of government,' and showed how ill a large number of natives of different races grouped with a small number of English settlers, who had the sole legislative control. This objection was felt by his Noble Friend, and it was determined by Government to suspend the constitution that had been conferred on the colony. The Go vernor wrote that he had introduced a legisla tive council, and he thought at the expiration of the time fixed by Parliament representative institutions might also be safely introduced. Believing his opinion to be well founded, Government propose I to wait until the proper season had arrived for putting into operation the new constitution.—(Hear.) Ho believed he had now gone through all the colonies which the gen tlemen he had referred to thought advisable should have fie e institutions, such as existed in the West India islands. He must say, with respect to the West India islands, the gentlemen expressed more moderation in their views than in some of the other instances. He would state, with respect to the West India islands, what had been done, and what was proposed to be done. With regard to Barbadues, and Jamaica, and crier West India colonies, they had for a long period enjoyed go vernment by council and assembly; and though from time to time differences arose between the Governor and the Assembly, he did net think it was likely any permanent derangement or evil would come from them. Although, for instance, the Assembly was disposed to press for the reduction of the judges' salaries, and other reductions, yet the able opposition of poople of influence in the Council had been able to check any mischief. The re ductions already made in the expenditure in that colony amount to 70,0001. With regard to British Guiana, when Mr. Barkly proceeded to take the government of that island, he (Lord J. Russell) begged to see him, and then tild him his impression when in the Colonial office of the particular position of that colony. The co lonists had recently been emancipated. They had passed from slavery to freedom, and he requested Mr. Barkly to pay attention to the subject and inform him whether the new constitution could be so amended as to admit of an extension of the franchise. He would net detain the House,further than to say he had received an able letter from Governor Barkly, and with reference to the pro position for an extension cf the franchise the Governor had already carried a measure for that purpose, and a new election had taken place; though the electors were not so numerous as it was expected they would be hereafter, yet they were more numerous than ever they were before. With regard to the salary cf the Governor of British Guiana, he might say that ques tion showed how difficult it was for gentlemen to carry into effect the prin c ipl es th e y asserte d, t h at t h e colonies ought to be allowed to manage their own affairs, and that Government ought not to interfere Except in cases of necessity. With respect to this salary Government had determined to leave the matter to the colonists. The salary was to be 5,000/. a year, and the colony was to contribute to it. Government left the colonists to dispose of the question. He would here remark with respect to salary, that if a large and liberal salary was given, there would be more likelihood of getting competent parties to fill the office than would be the case if there was a restriction in this respect. But as the salary was a contribution from the funds of British Guiana, and part of its expenditure, it was fur tee represent itives of British Guiana, and not fur Par- Helmet, t) prescribe what ought to be the sum.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to other changes in the colony of British Guiana, although Govenor Barkly was of opinion other changes might in time be introduced, yet he did not think it would he advisable t 3 introduce other changes immediately. Many of the colonists were slaves a short time ago, and it would therefore be advisable to make changes gradually. Governor Barkly was of opinion that though the colonists might be unfit now for further change, yet this would be no bar to future alteration. Governor Barkly proposed there should be a municipal council at the seat cf govern ment, and he gave his reason why this had not been before introduced. With regard to the Mauritius, Mr. Anderson was ef opinion that municipal councils were an advantage. In Malta the Governor had con sidered what was expedient, and had introduced some elective members to the council. He need not go into the particulars of the other colonies—he did not think it necessary to other colonies than those he now stated ought, in his judgment, to have 'representative institu tions. He now came to another question—a question f very considerable importance as regarded the colonies, but which was not in itself strictly a colonial question— the question of transportation. (It was decided by this country in 1786 that a penal colony should be founded in New South Wales, and measures were taken for that purpose. Some persons were sent out, but no provision was made for their religious instruction. The plan and place of transportation were subjects that more pro perly belonged to Parliament to determine than to the Colonial Secretary. As fir as the Colonial Secretary was concerned, he would be well satisfied if told Parliament had decided that no more convicts should be sent out; but Parliament had decided more than once that transportation should continue. It was fur the Colonial Secretary, therefore, to take care that transportation took place in the way least injurious to the selected colony. He had personally no great leaning to transportation, and in 1841 he made an at tempt to diminish the number of persons sent abroad; but Parliament passed a resolution to the effect that such a number of convicts should not be kept in this country. A Committee was appointed, and the judges were heard on the necessity of transportation in aid of the criminal law of the country. In the present state of the question the Colonial Secretary must endeavour to carry transportation into effect in such a way as to enable the colonies to derive advantage and to be se cured from injury. He had held the colonial seals, and he knew the mischief the system had done in New South Wales. He advised her Majesty to make a change, and had obtained an order in council to put a stop to transpon tation to New South Wales; and no uct while he held office had given him more satisfaction than th a t o r d er in council. Whatever might be the case hereafter, the changing the character of New South Wales—alter ing the colony from a convict colony to a colony of free people, had been productive of the greatest advantage to that colony. He now saw 200,000 inhabitants where before there was only a mixed population of about 6,000 persons. Ho had made various attempts to introduce changes with regard to transportation to the colonies. When he came into office ho made various changes, the general principle being that convicts should not be Lace lon colonists against their will. It hapc coed, however, amongst other. causes of difficulty which arose from the famine in Ireland, was the pressure of the number of persona sentenced to transportation and the crowded state of the gaols, combined with the great mortality from disease. The Colonial Secretary thought he was justified in sending out a number of persons not exceeding three hundred, who had been con victed of crimes arising from the pressure of famine, to the colony of the Cape of Good Hope. He highly commended the fears and apprehensions which the culo nists expressed that the colony was about to be made a penal settlement. The colonists had great apprehensions on the subject of the introduction c f those convicts, and hence arose an unfortunate state of things. The order in council had since been revoked by her Majesty, the convict ship had been ordered to Van Diemen's Land, and all sorts of apprehension and opposition would be averted by the removal of the cause.—(Hear.) lle would not enter into the merits of the controversy—he would not enter into personal matters; he made no re mark.sts, and h e on l y re f erred to the matter to show what on th e proceedings of either Government or wouldcolo nists, transportation. be the futur e With policy r e e f s p G e Government e t r o n m t h e: t on m the subject future manage ment of transportati on , h e admitted the subject was one inti mated a wish not to accept more of a c v o e n r v s i i c o t o e, n an ai d na a t of considerable difficulty. New South Wales had was to be expected that a feeling as it re ceiving convicts would arise among the settled colonies of this country, he anticieated that Parliament would soon have to consider whether it would not be expe dient to make some alteration with respect to the in fliction a transpoi teflon for same °fleeces not of the gravest character. There was another question of the greatest consequence, the question of emigration,— Hear.) Now, on the subject of emigration, there were two modes in which emigration was carried on bene ficially—oee where the labourer, whose labour was wanted and valrahle in certain states and colonies, sent in numbers to those places, end filled up interstices in society where their labour was in demand, and where, inzt •ad of teing a burden on the community here, they obtained high wages and ample subsistence. Of this kind of emigration a great mass had lstely been directed to the United States and to the British North American colonies. A tee and kind of emigration consisted of classes of persons who formed new culonie s where society was not alrea by estaiiislied. Of this kind there had been a considerable amount of emigration. With regard to the fleet kind cf emigratior, ho bad some accounts furnished to him by Mr. Murdoch, from which it ap pearee the total emigration in three years was 796,354 persons, making an average of 265,150 persons annu ally. Now, he begged the House to consider how very large th a t emigration was. It was w i th i n some 30,000 or 40,000 of the increase which the popula tion of the country was computed to make yearly. Lie was of opinion that this emigration of labourers and their families to the United States and British North America in search of employment was likely to continue f many 3 eirs. He believed the means of emigration which this class found for themselves, and remitted to this country to bring out ethers, would have the effect of furnishing occupatien for transport art auger:Ants fur some time. He believe d the emigration to Canada and the United States would be kept up by the great demand fer labour there. The diffieulty hitherto was in finding moans of transport, so as to allow of persons for whose labour there was no dem'ind here, finding their way to places where their labour was in demand. No Government plan could be so extensive as to effect so great a purpose as this kind cf voluntary emigration. * Government could not have effected the same amount of emigration at the same cost. Had Government laid out one and a ealf million of money, the chance was they would have found every species cf abuse.--(Hear, hear.) People would have been sent from this country with false characters, and the systeer would have been found to be such a curse by the United States and by the colonies that we should soon have seen them making some provision to put a stop to this emigration, and raying to this country, "Do not send us your halt, your crippled, and your idle popula tion; if such be the character of Government emigra tion, Re must interfere and put a stop to it." Such would be the result of the Government plan. He did not mean to say that Parliament was in no instance to give assistance towards promoting emigration; but, seeing the result cf voluntary emigration, he was of opinion that Government interference in the shape cf burdening the taxes for funds would prove a positive evil, and tend to diminish the present amount of emigra tion. Another species of emigration was that which had been directed towards the Australian colonies when emigrants went to found new or to increase old settle ments. It appeared that in 1848-9 the Emigration Commissioners sent out 37,000 persons, or more than 18,000 a year. In New Zealand new seteements had been projected, and there were now 12,000 Eurot easy in New Z.aland, and no doubt in the course of a few years there would be a very large emigration to New Zealand, and this colony would be found to be one of the most flourishing cf our colonies. With regard to emigration generally, he believed it was in a satisfac tory con lition. He believed there would be no com plaint that large bodies of emigrants were sent to places where their labour was not wanted, and where their condition would bo even worse than when at home. He had now stated the principal parts of that which ho wished to put the House in possession of with respect to Colonial Government. He had not attempted to do more than just give the leading facts with respect to importart questions, each of which a as matter fur a se parate night'. debate.—(ll; ar, hear.) He thought it was useU for the House to have ea this imperfect sketch cf the state of the colonies, and the propositions which Government intended by the help of an enactment to be carr:el into effect. The whole result of what he meant to say was, that however well-founded the disseti.fac tion of some cf our colonies, it must be placed to the accoant c f the transition, painful to th e parties, from monopoly to a'system of free trade. The House ought not _tee go back from what it bad de creed, but ought to treat the colonies on the principle that this country was at liberty to obtain from other coun tries whatever she might want and be able to get cheaper, and that the colonies were to have liberty to trade to all pints of the world in that manner which teemed best to themselves.—(Cheers.) This, in future, would be the cardinal point of their policy.—(Hear, hear.) The next point would be, that in uniformity with the princi ples of our ancestors, as far as possible, Government would proceed on the principle of introducing and main taining political freedom in our colonies.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, wherever it was asserted of a colony, poli tical freedom could not be introduced, that House was bound to show the reason fur this exception—(He hear)—and to show, with respect to the native races, there was not such a mixture of British people as would make it safe to introduce British regulations.—(llear, ar.) It men were Kilt to the colonies capable cf governing themselves, give them full liberty to govern themselves—(lleac, bear)—and, while you have your representatives there with regard to foreign relations, yet, in all their domestic concerns, interfere no firth; r than necessary to prevent discord in society.—(Hear, hear.) These he conceived to be sound principles, and they were the principles on which the present Go sernmeet intended to proceed; and when the general features of the measure had obtained the assent and approbation of the House, he should he glad, with respect to the details, to adopt any better mode of carrying out these great principles than the one pointed out in the Bill. But he would say they were net then considering whether they should part with their colonies or make the connexion more loose, or even leave them to defend themselves in the best way against foreign aggresson.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the exact amount of military force for the colonies, he re served to himself the right of discussing the question on a future occasion. With respect to some of the colonies, ho might say that the fever into which they had been thrown had mainly diminished. He believed that if they proceeded on this principle, without any danger to the present, there might be a question arise hereafter which they might solve without the danger of such an unhappy conflict as that which took place in what were now called the United States cf Anierica. In looking back to the origin of that unhappy contest, he did not think it was a single error or a single blunder, but a series of repeated errors and repeated blunders of policy asserted, and then razialled —of policy again asserted, con cessions made when too late, and of obstinacy when it was unreasonable. He believed it had been by such a course that this country entered into that unhappy con flict, by which the loyal provinces of North America were lest.—(flear.) lie trusted that they would never again have to deplore such a contest. He did, indeed, anticipate that some of these colonies would so grow in population, commerce, and wealth, that the colonists might say that their strength and power was sufficient for them to become an independent country, and that the link of the chain had become onerous to them—that the time was come when they thought that those in Aus tralia and all other colonies should maintain their inde pendence. But he (Lord J. Russell) said, let the Legis lature make these people, as far as possible, fit to govern themselves. Give to them as far as possible the capa city to manage their own affairs. Let them but increase in wealth and power, and they would be thus qualified; and whatever might happen, this nation would at least have the consolation cf knowing that she had contri buted largely to the happiness of the world.—(Cheers.) Sir W. MOLESWORTH said that the Noble Lord had commenced his speech by explaining the origin of our colonial policy, and he went on to prove the vast in crease of population and commerc e i n our co l onies, espe ciallyin Australia, and hence the Noble Lord inferred the great value of the colonies to the mother country, and he argued that it was not for the advantage of this country to abandon these colonies. In most of these ob servations he entirely agreed. But, then, the Noble Lord proceeded to raise the question of our future colo nial policy, in order to retain our colonial empire. He was so dull that he could not distinctly understand the principle of colonial policy of the Noble Lord. But give the power to the colonists to frame their own constitu tions—if they were to be allowed to carry out those old principles c f their charters—then ,c ould the Noble Lord find in him a zealous adherent. Then the Noble Lord went on to cast a censure upon an association of gentle men which had been formed for the reform of the co lonial government.] Now he (Sir W. Molesvvorth), as one of the gentlemen who had been alluded t e would state the reason which induced him to join that association. The gentleman did so form themselves into a society because they entirely agreed with the Noble Lord in thinking that we ought to maintain our colonial empire. They nid so form an association because they felt that there was no hope from the Colonial-office of a complete reform of ,the colonial system ; because they believed that as by the errors, blunders, and obstinacy of former colonial officers we had lest the American States, so were we likely now to lose those which remained. That association was framed hecause they had no faith in the capacity of the Colonial-offie to introduce real reforms, or to introduce a pi actical Bill for the better government ot the colonies of Australia. They had presented some fancied model constitution year after year. On the 14th August, 1846, the Under Secretary for the Colo nies stated that he hoped and trusted her Majesty's Government would he able to give their attention to the consideration of a better form of govern ment for Van Themen's Land—and great was the excitement there on hearing this news. On the 17th of May, 1847, the Under Secretary said that it was in contemplation, nay, that he might say a measure was na preparation with a view to give the benefits of the British constitution to the Australian colonies. The Hon. Geatleman said that the measure was in an ad vanced state, and would be brought forward in that ses sion, or at the beginning of the next session. The Vice- President of the Board of Trade, on the 7th March, 1848, spoke of the intention to grant free institutions to Australia. On the Bth May, 184 S, the Prime Minister stated it was his intention to introduce a measure as early 'is possible. Week after week went on without the arrive! of this Bill, and for four months the Under Secretary waited in vain for the opportunity, and on the 18th of August, 1848, the Hon. Gentleman assured the House that at the earliest period of the next session the Bill would be laid on the table. After a lapse of three years a Bill was produced; but it was so premature that it had to be withdrawn.—(No, no.) Why, the Noble Lord again, on the 2d July, announced that a most important change had to be made in the Bill. On the 17th July they withdrew the Bill c f the Noble Lord, and thus, year after year, for the last four years, the fairest pr.romises had been made; but the just hopes and expectations of the colonies had been disappointed and blighted. These proceedings had produced the greatest distrust and excitement in our colonies generally. Not only did discontent prevail in Australia, but in various quarters c f our colonial empire. Bitter complaints were atht made ethc e at a ari g clapiet a n:l u i eaos e i ,ddpfe s god t ureo o ttfowa u :t r teidi hNe c nu o . too l chb o opel n uelemo i a enL. d l ea system, y ad s r t ee e pa m a r, thatt m a n e and the h t h eh ea Noble o broken rleo colon ists k L en o Lord solemn t Land o hadorTdhohe f i p m a e e p i breach f l : t c ' hf that t i afnna night, e h r u e:r B . l signedsnte d abyr. C6t,oitcioonpferrosmonst,he,,choiolotnoyldotfhNe NobleewSouit!oirdW they would °prose any further transportation cf convicts to that colony. A cenap'eze reform of the colonial system was necessary. The question wa s , t o w h at extent of re form would this measure of the Noble Lord go? Some of our colonies complained of a want of free institutions, or the went of power to alter or amend existing instite- Liens. Almost all complained cf the appointments made. All complained c.f the interference of the Colonial office, and where transportation was carried on, discontc nt was strongly expressed. He would net enter into the question of colonial policy, but he would consider two things. First, as to the form of govern ment or constitution to be furnished; and secondly, as to the powers which ought to he delegated to the colo nial authorities. First, with regard to the form of go vernment, he could not distinctly understand what form the Noble Lord intended to give to the Cape of Gocd Hope. Lie believel that the Noble Lord intended to give to all the Australian colonies the present constitution of New South Wales. Now, suppose that there were in that House 110 M. mbers who had seats in virtue cf holding office under Government, and who held those seats only so long as they held office ; and suppose they had, besides those 110 official Members, 110 others who were appointed as Members of Parliament by the Go- ' vernment at the commencement of every Parliament— m_king together 220 votes at the, disposal of the Go vernment ; and suppose that they were to get rid of the House of Lords, and that, instead of her Majesty the Queen, they had some governor over them of tie ordi: ary sort. Suppose all this, and they would then enjoy the Vessings c.f the British Constitution, a'tsr the present fashion of New South Wales.—(A laugh.) How would such a constitution work in this country and in that Heine ? Why, they would be divided into two violent fictions, actuated by the very bitterest animus. No measures would be deemed safe which were decided against the majority of the elected. The Noble Lord raid that the people cf New South Wales were content with the present form c f govern ment, and be did not know whether the Noble Lord had received any late accounts, hut he (Sir W. Maleswoith) bad read something of the late delibe. ations of the Le gislative Council, and he found that what they felt was, that they would rather have even their present constitu tion than that which had been proposed to them by the Noble Lord. He presumed what they wanted was, that power should be given to the colonies to alter and amend the constitution and to make the two Chambers elective. If this power were conceded to the colonial Legislatures it would diminish some of his objections to the Bill of the Noble Lord. If the Noble Lord would adopt the old sound principles of colonial policy he would do better. He hoped lie would leave the colonies to find constitu tions for themselves. But all our attempts at constitu tions had been ridiculous. They all knew the .history of the constitution for New Zealand; it was enacted one year and suspended the next. It was rumoured, toe, that Sir Harry Smith had been called upon to pro vide a constitution for the Cape of Good Hope. Now, though he had a high respect for the gallant officer's character, still he must observe he was nut by nature or profession fitted to be a Solon. If they sought to frame such constitutiona as should give general saisfsction, let the Government send out to the colonies to obtain the opinions of each colony generally, and this ought to be done, not merely by asking the opi nion cf the Governor, or by referring to some colonial newspapers; they ought to assemble the representatives of the people, and desire them to declare how the case stood. It the Government did not do this, let them give to the colonies the largest powers of altering and amend ing their constitutions, whilst they, also allowed them to mave their governors elective. That aas the case under the old charters. Thee, secondly, what were the powers which were to be delegated to the Colonial-Office; these were much more important considerations than were colonial local matters. He was sorry to hear that it was the intention to retain the arbitrary power on the part of the Crown of die allowing Acts passed by the local legislative bodies, and thus keep up the system of interference in the management of the affairs of the colonies. This int •rference had always been a perpe tual eou.ce c f discontent. Who were the persons intrusted with this karbitrary power ? Why, those men in official capacities whose position changed with every change of Government who were absentee rulers—who had never ocular demonstration of the wants of the colony—who were always obliged to trust to second-hand and one-sided information. Aud worse than being ignorant, these men were misinformed, It was said that these men were responsible to Parlia ment, but that was an utter farce. If those whom he ad dressed were at the Antipodes, how would they like to wait three years to see whether Acts of Parliament were law or not? Wherefore did the Noble Lord wish to maintain this arbitrary power? He entirely agreed in thinking that means must be taken to prevent the colo nies from passing laws which would bs injurious to or affect the imperial powers, but he denied that £,. that purpose they must give arbitrary power to the Colonial office. All executive and legislative powers in regard to colonies might be divided into two cicvses, the ono class comprising the imperial powers, and the other the powers delegated to the colonial Legislature for the exercise of all local powers, and he would presently state what those powers were. It was tf great importance how these imperial powers were to be t xercii el. On the other hand it was cf little importance to this country in what manner the local affairs were managed. The co lony was not dissatisfied with the imperial Govern ment on account of the manner in which their local affairs were administered. He contended it was impos sible f , r a man cn one side of the globe to minister to the supplies of the Anglo-Saxon on the other side of the globe. He would take away from the Crown the power to disallow Acts passed by the colonial Legislatures, and he would limit its powers to cases affecting the Im perial rights. The House had more of " Inot trial powers" than perhaps they had expected to hear from him, and he was prepared to enumerate what these Im perial powers were if the House would allow him to read some five or six pages. The Committee must un derstand that I propose that tee colonial Legislature shall be absolutely prohibited, without the consent of her Majesty, from making any law affecting or derogating, from the following powers. I would enact that the co lonial Legislature should not have the power to send or receive ambassadors, to or from, or to enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation with any prince, state, or power; to grant letters of marque and reprisal during peace or war, and to grant safe con ducts during war; the power to declare or make war; conceding to the colony, when actually in vaded, or in such imminent danger as net to admit of delay, the power to engage in war; the power to confiscate the property cf alien enemies in time of war; the power to establish prize courts, the com mand of the militia in time of war, and at all times the command of all regular naval and military forces em ployed in and about the said colony; the power to coin money or regulate its value, or that of foreign coin; the power to grant titles of nobility; the power to regulate the transmission of letters by sea to and from the colony of New South Wales and any other place; the power to take any land situate within the said colony upon making due compensation to the owners and occupiers thereof for the purpose of erecting beacons and lighthouses thereon, and to make such regulations as may be deemed expedient for the proper management thereof; the power of keeping any landor naval forces in or about the raid co lony or the coast thereof; the power of erecting forts, ma gazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings for military purposes—the power of placing garrisons therein, and of exercising exclusive jurisdiction within the precincts thereof; the power of taking possession of any week, land situate within the said colony, and of any other land therein, upon making due compensation to the owners and occupiers thereof, for the purpose of erecting such forts, magazlnes, arsensls,docky anis, and other need ful buildings, and for any other military purpose; the power of assenting to such Bills as are hereinafter mentioned to require such assent. Secondly, I would enact that the colonial legislature shall not have power without the consent of her Majesty to make any law; to establish slavery; to alter the succession to the Crown, or pass any Act affecting the style and dignity of the Crown, or relating to the appointme n t o f a R egent; to a b so l ve an y person from his allegia nce; to deprive any per, on of the right of appeal to her Majesty in Council, in any case in which such appeal now subsists; to make any law containing any matter or thing contrary to the law of nations, as received and administered in the courts of Great Britain; to make any law respecting captures by land or water, or to define piracies and felonies com mitted on the high seas; to make any law affecting the t e or d c e e r ; ; command, regulations, or dis c ipl ine o f h er M a j es ty' s military to make an ythi ng b u t g old or silver to define treason or alter the co i a n n a d navalgel n f law relating thereto; to lay any duties - on supplies to her Majesty's military and naval forces; to bring in any Bill cf attainder; to impose any differential duty on imports to or exports from any part of her Majesty's dominions, or any duty inconsistent with any treaty that already has been, or may hereafter bo entered into between her Majesty, her heirs and successors, and any foreign country ; to confer any privilege or immunity on the inhabi tants cf New South Wales that shall not equally be conferred on the other subjects of her Majesty, and every law or provision in a law in contravention of this clam() shall be void. Now, in consequence of these reservations, various legal questions would arise, affecting boundaries and other questions, which I would propose to refer to the decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, es the tribunal most esteemed in this country in all cases where questions of constitutional law are con cerned. Thus I would constitute for the present arbi trary power of the Colonial-office a legally-defined power. Now, there is nothing which men of our race dis like more than arbitrary power—nothing which they respect more than a legally-defined power.—(Hear.) At present the colonial legislatures do not know what laws they may, and what laws they may not make. In fact, they may at present make any laws whatever, af fecting imperial interests in any manner, whatever pro vided the Colonial-office does not disallow them within a cet tarn period of time. On the other hand the colonial legislatures cannot make any law which the Colonial office may not disallow. I propose, therefore, in the manner which I have explained, to enable the colonial legislatures to know precisely what laws they may mike, and what laws they must abstain from making; and propose to settle all disputes upon this subject by means of the decisions of one of the highest and most esteemed judicial tribunals in this country. I have now answered the challenge that those who would efl act reform in our colonial system should state what in their opinion the alterations should consist in. In order to reduce my principles to a practical shape, I hare, with the aid of some legal friends of mine, prepared a Bill for New South Wales. I do not propose to introduce a Bill. I should require the assent of the Government to do so. But, the Go vernment and the House should desire it , I .will in troducemyself to general principles and to a general outline. I do not pledge myself to minute details; for, in order to make a per'ect measure, information would be required from the Colonial-office, and it would be necessary to cot Ault constitutional lawyers. I must now Leg pardon for trespassing so long on the attention of the Com mi ttee, but I must rest my excuse in the challenge thrown out by the Noble Lord.—(flcar.) In conclusion I would say that the true colonial policy to pursue is, to have faith in our colonists—(Cheers) —to believe that they colonists are rational men--(Hear, hear)—to believe that they can understand their local concerns better than we, can— (Hear)—and to give them an uncontrolled ma na,,soment over their local, as contradistinguished from Imperial affairs. Then we should find the colo nies, so relieved from a hated tyranny, bearing a more ha.srty allegiance to the Monarch of these realms; then we t;-Mould find them willingly obeying the Imperial lawn and those governors to whom Parliament should dele4 ale its powers having no reason to find fault with the Imperial Government, and being bound to the -empire by the strongest fes of se:f-interest and affect ion."— (Chet rs.) XI; . ANSTEY thought that the veto in respect to dis allowing Acts passed by the colonial legislatures should bz limited only to matters affecting the Imperial rights or interests. The Hon. Baronet (Sir W. Molesworrh) proposed to abolish the Colonial-cffice under one name, and create it under another—he proposed to abolish Earl Grey, and transfer his functions to the Judicial Committee c f the Privy Council.—(" No, no," from Sir Win. Mole 'worth ) The hop. Baronet said it would be impossible to determine in some cases whether or not the colonial legislature had exceeded its functions, and that in such cases the Judicial Committee should determine.—(No, no.) If that aae not the lion. Laronet's meaning, he (Mr. A.) made no other objection to the proposition than this—that they would be left without even the assistance c f the Judicial Committee to determine whether a case for the interference a the Crown had occurred or not, and there would be litiga tion without end between the colonies and the Crown. The true objection to the plan proposed for the Austra l:an colonies was this—that one-third cf the council were to be the nominees of the Crown. With reference to Van Diemen's Land, the operation cf the plan would be simply this:—lf one-third of the Members were nomi nees of the Crown, the majority which would bo found to support the measures of the local Government would form, perhaps two-thirds of the entire council, because almost the whole of the property of that island, in con sequence of its financial condition, was placed at the dis posal of the chief officers of the Government, all of whom were shareholders and rreelagers of the principal banks —those bankers possessing mortgages over nine-tenths of the property in the islanO, and being in a position to compel the owners of the property to execute their will and pleasure. The better plan would be to allow those who were not under such ir.fluence to elect the Lower House, and other parties t - ) firm the Upper, and in that way things would correct themselves. Mr. 11. J. BAILLIE said the Noble Lord had stated that the franchise under the constitution granted to British Guinea had been considerably increased. The Committee which sat to consider the grievances cf that colony had recommended that the alterations in the constitution should be made in friendly concert with the colonial authorities. When that paragraph was under discussion be asked Sir R. Peel if he considered it acting in friendly concert with the colonial authorities to force a Bill through the Court of Policy only by official votes, and the Right Hon. Baronet replied that he should con sider such a proceeding most objectionable. Now that was the course to which the Governor of British Guinea resorted. The new Franchise Bill was forced through the Court cf Policy by judicial votes only. Every one of the electe 1 Aiembers voted against the measure, which was finally carried by the double vote of the Governor. Every one of the elected Members resigned his seat, and refused to be put in nomir ation under the new Bill.— (Hear, hear.) Instead of the number of electors having increar era, he was informed that the number bad been t e luced by about 200; and as an instance of the manner in which the elections were managed in that colony, he would just state that, in the county of Ess‘quibo, the Solicitor-General was proposed by the county clerk and seconded by the gaoler.—(Laughter.) Mr. LABOUCHERE said it had been his duty as a member of the Committee of Privy Council of Trade and Plantations, to take a share in the construction of the two important measures relating to the colonies of Australia and British Guiana. Ho admitted the pro priety of giving the most ample powers of self-govern ment to the colonies with regard to their local affairs, and he thought every candid man would allow that the Government had been actuated by a sincere desire to give constitutional freedom and happiness to the inha bitants of these two vast portions of our colonial em pire.—(llear, hear.) He hal heard with some surprise the censure cast upon the Government with regard t.) Australis. Now he had seen intelligence from that part of the world which showed that the l (sepia would re ceive in a very different spirit these proposals to which the Hon. Member made so much objection. He cer tainly had received no official disr atches, but he would call the attention of the House to a sentence in the Sydney Herald, of the 19th of September, a paper which represented the opinions cf the popular party. That paper said that the report sent out was one of the ablest and most conciliatory documents of the kind ever laid b, f ire the public. " Never before did the colony of New South Wales receive so large a share of Ministerial consideration, liberality, rind kindness as in the present instance. Her Majesty in council has conceded to us nearly everything we asked." He had received another newspaper from Port Phillip, the Vie ia Colonist, of the 14th cf September, in which it was said, " It must be satisfactory to the Goternment to find that the boon they have granted to the Australian colonies has diffused such general satisfaction through out the province of Victoria. All the newspapers are unanimous in their expressions cf approval, and have not given the slightest whisper of dissent."—(Hear, hear.) He had every reason t ) believe that the inhabi tants of Australia were less critical and less difficult t please than those gentlemen who defended their interests in that House, and that they would with feelings of gratification accept a measure which had been framed with a sincere desire to promote their benefit and place them on the footing of free members of the British empire, and which would lay the foundation cf a free constitution, and thus tend to produce their prosperity and happiness.—(Bear, h ar.) The her. Baronet said that the constitution of the Cape of Good Hope was to be left to Sir Harry Smith. Nothing could be more completely at variance with the fact, the truth Icing that the main principles of the constitution were imperatively laid down. Not having the difficulty to deal with which existed in the case of the Australian colonies, the Government introduced the three estates, and placed them in a governor and two council/. The only thing left to Sir H. Smith was the carrying out cf certain details with regard to qualification, and other matters with which it would be extremely difficult to deal in this country, from want of information which Sir IL Smith and his able council could most effectively supply.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Labouchere) consi dered that it would bo extremely difficult to draw a strict line of distinction between what was imperial and what was local and colonial, and was cf opinion that a reference of matters to the decision of the Privy Council would involve the colonies and the mother country in endless difficulties.--(Hear, hear.) Mr. ROEBUCK said the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had done two things—he had explained the policy cf the Government with regard to our colonial possessions, and he had explained one specific act of legislation which he intended to propose. In announcing part of the general policy the Noble Lord laid its foun dation on the previous history of our colonial posses sions, but he struck out the most important portion of that colonial history—namely, that which related to the United States, confining his observations to certain charters given to Lord Carlisle, as governor of the West India possessions. The Hor. Baronet said, these charters were simply broad and general powers con ferred on the colonies, whereby they might make con stitutions for themselves. But that was not the case. The charters given to the colonies were most pecu liarly definite, specific, and ratticular, so much so, that some of them were now in actual existence as constitutions. Lord Clarendon, in the reign cf Charles 1., conferred on Rhode Island so liberal a constitution that to the present hour it remained the constitution of that state, and it was so specifically given that under it they were able to elect a body which was the governing body at the present time.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord laid down certain general propositions, and he said that it w a s th e i n t ent i on o f t h e G overn ment to give the colonies the entire government of their own concerns. Ile (Mr. IL) was glad to hear that declaim tion.—(llear, hear.) After going through the portion of history to a hich he (Mr. R.) bad alluded, the Noble Lord dealt with the conduct of certain gentlemen to wards the Governm en t, w i t h res p ec t to their . colonial policy. Now, if th ese gent l emen wan ted a justification of their conduct, that justification might be found in the course now taken by the Noble Lord.—(He ar, hear.) With regard to South Africa, he (Mr. R.) had nothing more to ask.—(Hear, hear.) But he would warn the Noble Lord of the consequences. The Noble Lord could never have two or thr ee m easures for the colonies.— (Hear, hear.) The colonies of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick would all demand elective councils. He had seen civil war arise because these coun cils had been denied. The Noble Lord having arrived at the conclusion that a double chamber was necessary, and that the two chambers should be elective with re spect to South Africa, he (Mr. Roebuck) could not see how the Noble Lord had arrived at an opposite conclu sion with regard to New South Wales.—(Hear, hear.) . Great objections would be entertained to th e system of nomination. Legislation of that kind would n ot satisf y the people, because it would not be the legislation of the so f people elected by the people. The prejudices o f the. peo ple would nominees. h raisede Noble teh Lordfac t leavingef a setpr s ocfcedmeeend slttnagr with respect to South Africa, he (Mr. Roebuck) wished to know why he should halt in his march—ashy he should be persuaded cut of his better mind? His better mind served him in South Africa, but getting to New South Wales it deserted him, and some evil genius inter vcned. He did not see ashy a blot should be placed on the largest portion of our colonial possessions. If two chi:niers were bast, why did they propose free new constitutions for Australia on a different principle? Ile hoped they would consider this question with what an Hon. Member called a knowledge of human nature. It was a great experiment, and he hoped they would not do any thing which would sow the seeds of discontent, or which would plant a quarrel that would grow up and overshadow the benefits of the measure. Mr. HAWES, in answer to a remark of the Hon and Learned Gentleman, said he would refer him to the p3ti gttooetlbheeec vereol..piil.en.iffrpalui,nhbiainitge was opinion peti tion of the inhabitants of New South Wales to show that they regarded the . . Act s:h and 6th Victoria as a great boon. The Legislative Council established by that Act might be called a popular body, inasmuch as, con sisting of 36 members, only 12 of that number were no mincer,stitutiou for New South Wales, the Government had thought it advisable to propose what they believed 01 s: f o ci : : co d s p h wr a o y hp e l oe hs p e o dc a o c eu r li tunderbiveet taken the cces: proposed mbybiyt hefor t w o e u e l nLet the m : t o s l t t o t n ' acceptable proposed ( a ) b s b e c l . the uld desire a double chamber, the Legislative Council he course most deferential to the public feeling in New South Government. Bill the cofpm colony Horn and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Roebuck) had spoken e atton l and possessin g a representative assembly, the as an innovation up on t h e former syett m of colonial con stitutions. It was his (Mr. H awes ' s ) w i s h t h at th e Ho us e should consider that as a d ec l arat i on on t h e p ut t o f Parliament that, in colonies with a l ar ge European po• pul proposition for electi ve l eg i s l at i ve counc ils would me.t with no farth er oppos i t i on f rom t hi s country.—(Bear, Le ha) He could assure the lion. Member fhr South wark that it had never been his intention to depart from the promise he made in 1846 as far as regards the con stitution for the C a pe. As regarded the Amtraitan cc lonies, a Bill Lai been laid on the table of the House last year. With respect to the present measure it had actually been framed, and the intention to introduce it announced long before the Colonial Reform Association Was thought of.—(Hear, hear.) The suggestion of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark for the ap pointment of a Judicial Council to decide as to Imperial and local questions, would to productive of injurious consequences if carried into effect. The Hon. Member for Inverness had referred to Guia-a, and to the case of an election where only two persons had vctc,d. But it did not follow, because there was no contest, that there was no constituency. Many Hen. Members of that House had been elected without even two votes having been given. After the able and comprehensive statement cf the Noble Lord the First Minister, he should say no more, but postpone what other observe lions he had to make un it the measure was before them. He trusted that it would meet with the approval of the House, and that the result would be, that all our great colonies would be possessed of institutions analogous to those of the mother country. Mr. GLADSTONE would not on the present occasion enter upon any discussion of the general principles t.f colonial policy laid down by the Noble Lore', nor would he enter upon any de fence of the Colonial Reform Asse ciation. There might be points in the constitution of that society open to criticism, but it was entitled to the credit of having given a stimulus to the proceedings of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt the Austra lian Bill had been framed as stated by the Under-Secre tary before the Colonial Reform Associat'on was thought of; but the Australian Bill was not the ob ject of their admiration. The credit of the Government rested on the more recent production of the outline of the Cape constitution, which he apprehended ha i been prepared subsequent to the proceedings ache association. Mr. HAWES—No. Mr. GLADSTONE—He believed the idea c f the Legislative Couccil was conceived in the Board of Trade in January, 1850. He was not desirous on the present occasion of saying a word against the Government proposition of a single amber for the Australian colonies. He believed the Bill was conceived in a friendly spirit. But how stood the case with regard to a single chamber in New South Wales? The Under- Secretary for the Colonies had said that he preferred a double chamber, but had adopted a single chamber out of deference to the feeling of the people cf Now South Wales, who were opposed to the creation of an Upper House; and the Hon. Gentleman added, that he had provided a remedy, as the Bill would give the Legisla• tive Assembly a power of re-modelling itself; and estab lishing, if it thought fit, a double chamber. The remedy, in his opinion, would be an impel feet one. The object was to obtain the sentiments of the population of New South Wales. He knew of no British interests in Australia apart from the interests of the people of - the colony.—(Hear.)' This body, which was to hate the power of modifying the constitution, was a body in which nominations largely entered. In the Legislative Council there might be a majority of the elected Mem bers favourable to a double chamber, and yet that ma jority might be converted into a minority by the nomi nated Members opposing them.—(Hear.) What more likely than that the nominated Members should object to any de,ire for a second chamber by the elected Mem bers. Naturally those Members would be arrayed against the proposal for a double chamber, and therefore the remedy proposed would be inoperative. The ques tion of the second chamber had never been before the people of New South Wales, and trey had never de cided in favour of a single chamber. The question whe ther the second chamber should be elective or not was one which would have to be considered well, whenever it was proposed to grant one. He thought the constitu tion of some of our North American colonies was some what defective on this point. Lord Elgin, in order to bring the Legislative Council into harmony with the House of Assembly, bad been obliged to make nomina tions which swamped the former body. If the second chamber were elective, it would derive its strength from the same source as the other chamber. Something similar to this was the state of the French Chamber and tte President, who both held their power from the same body of electors. His opinion was that if they wished to give strength to an Upper House in the colonies they must make it elective. The decision to which the people of New South Wales had come was natural; but it was presumption to assume that they were opposed to a dou ble chamber. Ile thought the Under Secretary had fallen into an error with respect to the Governor of Van Die men's Land. If tl.c lion. Gentleman would refer to the dispatch c.f August, 1848, he would find the governor stating that, withcut presuming to assert what would be the best form of the legislative body, be might say tl at under the peculiar circumstances of the time, the adop tion of an upper or second chamber would be strenuously rejected. [Mr. Hawes made an observation which was not heard in the gallery.] The Governor was stating his opinion at the time he wrote. There were two rea:ons why tl.ey ought to establish a double chamber in Austra lia. When the Australian colonists learned that an upper elective chamber had been granted to the Cape, they would at once demand a similar institution. And, in the second place, though the present constitution of New South Wales wits a good one when granted some six or seven years age, it sas not now a good constitution. He did not like the gathering together a fixed number cf gentlemen as nominee; to the council opposed to the elected members. Their nomination had nothing of the grace or dignity att ached to the calling of individuals to the Upper House in this country. The twelve nomi nations in the Legislative Council of New South Wales wer e there to support it was supposed the influence of the Crown, but their appointment involved a fundamental and fatal error. It proceeded on the assumption that the Crown had a distinct interest from the people.—(Hear.) It tended to create a party in the colony who were pre sumed to be in a peculiar manner loyal and attached to Britain.—(Hear.) He did not deny that their govern ment were loyal, but it was dangerous to do anything to create a British party. They should consider the whole colonists the British party.—(Hear.) If so, they ought to leave them to themselves, and not adopt institutions that would lead to the supposition that this country and the colonists had separats interests.— (Hear.) He should be ready when the Bill came before the House to argue in favour of establishing a double chamber. Mr. HAWES explained, and referred to the dispatch of the Governor of Van Diemen's Land to show that any change of the present system of one chamber in the New South Wales constitution would be looked on with suspicion by the colonists. Mr. GLADSTONE thought the Hon. Under Secre tary should not have overlooked another part of the dis patch, where the Governor of Van Diemen's Land stated that he would not have the least objection to recommend an upper chamber for Van Diemen's Land. Mr. HUME expressed his delight at the promises held out by the Noble Lord, and bored that he would to able to carry them out. He cordially approved of the proposed Constitution for the Cain Colony, and thought that if an elective upper chamber was good for a colony of 80,000 inhabitants, it was good for a colony with 200.000 inhabitants. He was not one of those who desired to see a separation take place between our colonies and the mother country, if justice was done them, but he bad always felt that i sooner or later a sepa ration would have taken place f our old system of i governing them bad been persevered n.—(Hear.) An improved system of colonial government Would not only be beneficial to the colonies, but would save this country from a large amount of expenditure ; for under such system thousands of our troops would be with drawn from the most distant stations of the empire. He earn estly hoped that the principles laid down by the Noble Lord would be carried fully into effect ; and if he should not be disappointed in that hope, he felt as sured that the most happy results would be produced by the contemplated alteration in our colonial policy. Mr. ADDERLEY said I , e believed that the come quences c f the course they might pursue upon that sub ject would be either to rivet the attachment of the colonies to the mother country and to relieve the empire at large from many difficulties and burdens, or else to !cooperate the colonies by the disappointment of their just expectations , an d, p er h a p F , t o create among them feelings of inflation which would hal to the loss of them for ever. After all that had transpired that even big, he could not help congratulating the House and the empire at large on the fact that there existed in ttlis count-v an organized channel for the expression of pub lic opinion on colonial questions. The exertions cf the Colonial Reform Association had, at ]cast, so far sue cteded as to force the Noble Lord to place in the pro per position of promi nence among the debates of the session the great question then under their considerce. tion. The Noble Lord had objected t o t h e proposal of that association to correspond with the colonies. But it should b . e remembered th a t th ey only wished for an " accredited " correspond ence , an d t h at their great oh ject was to obtain th e most accurate information upon the subjects which might come under tl e:r notice. He regretted to fi n d t h at the scheme laid down that even ing by the Noble Lord contained no great advance upon the scheme w hi c h h a d b een con d emned last session, except in the proposal for granting a constitution to the Cape cf Good Hole. He could not help disapprovi ng o f the proposal of the No b le Lord to retain in the hands of the Government the nomination of so large a portion of the council in New South Wales; and he could see no sufficient reason fir establishing there ore chamber only. The Noble Lord supposed that publi c op i n i on i n New South Wa l es was d ec id ed l y in favour of such an arrangement; but he (Mr.Adderley) found no proof o f t h e ex i stence o f su ch a feeling. For his part he earnestly hoped that her Majesty's Govern ment would think it advisable to assimilate the consti tution of New South Wales as nearly as possible to the constitution of the mother country. There was a very ex traordinary provision in the proposed constitution for the Cape o f G oo d H o pe, and one which would yet, he hoped, be modified. He alluded to the proposal for leaving the election of the Upper Chamber to a body of public officials. That would be a moat strange proceed ing; and he believed it had only been suggested by th e Noble Lord in consequence of Iris extreme reluctance t o take the formation cf the council out of the hands of the Government. He (Mr. Adderley) wished to see self-government extended to the colonies, not as a con cession to clamour, but in obedience to the dictates of sound policy and of justice. He trusted the colonization had higher objects than war or commerce, and hoped that a e had already laid the foundations in our colonies of civilization and freedom. Mr. AGLIONBY complained of the disparaging tone in which the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had referred to the Colonial Reform Association, which be (Mr. Aglionby) certainly would have joined had he bent aware of its formation, and which he thought would be of great use in keeping the public attention alive to colonial matters. Nor did be think the worse of it became it derived its it formation on colonial mat ters from accredited agent?. The Government derived all their iuformation from their governers, who were sometimes at variance with the colonists, and on whose accounts, therefore, implicit reliance ought not to be placed. He had listened with great mai:faction to the speech of tl.e Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield, and should look for his views during the progress of the question with great enxiety. He was astonished to hear the Noble Lord at the head of the Gov ernment observe that New Zealand was to have no other than a nominee form of government till the 7th cf March, 1853. Would that be tolerated? Impossible : and ho gave the Noble Lord notice, that if, when the Bill came before Parlia- IM , ............................. -..'.:..,...'''' fit s meat, he found New Zealand excluded from the tri:s of their new good intentions, he wad I use hi! teas,.n endeavours to have it 'included, if net entirely, a , io d in pleb. In August, 1847, they gave New Ze t d a a ; a constitution ; in March, 1848, though in the interval theytheeLi! Governor, on whom they so much relied, that the southern province was entirely ripe for a representa.tlvii' constitution. Already the nominee government .. 0 , 1 1 : , bad a statement i waa 8 f;ora produced a deadly feud between the Governor and lb, settlers i f the southern province. In conclusion, 9 thanked the Noble Lard fur the liberal end goer. sentiments which he had expressed in fsveur I f ' CI 1, 6 r1 SO in OCh beaycoci,, vernment and representative institutions , anything that he had exrected that be could se t er e / elic,‘ eit real. It now only remained to see wha tuP Ited 6 t tsucture Parliament would raise upo n so wet feundation.- (IL ar hear ) r d at Mr. SCOT I' said nothing could be a areater m i ' aP. prehension tt an that which induced the Noble Love. the head of the Government and the Right U o r. thei ensiling g PresiSent of the Board of Trade to sot-, that de , : l e d i d i n n the colony was in favour of a single chamber. Z - t , t he ot impute intentional misrepresentation to eitu e cott el Noble Lord or the Right Hon. Gentleman, but be on assure . them that such a feeling never edited the RIO t Hon. Gentleman had quoted the t ditor `f ,0, Sydney Morning Herold in support of his assertion; b ut the legislative Council was sitting ; w hy did Ihy, seek for expression of public opinion there ?, to ll re was only one member of the Legislative ii° o ber, eha ceco , and that was Mr. Wentworth. who expressed an opinion against a double tary said, one great argument in favour of a 6 ,0 to chamber was, that it was essentially popular, L s he reply to some cheers from the Oppositlon bettel-and twee • id, " When you have only twelve nominees-. litbst ty-lour elected member., 3 ou surely cannot asa ;f the The lion. Under- ogle a nominee chamber ?" But It was just the s arac,, o o r British House of Commons were composed of 21 ',, t he tninees of the Crown, and 400 men sent the re b u i the NT t ''s of independent electors, and this was s w e a IP Under-Secretary celled a popular form of chamue'tirell believed the reeling in New South Wales totting 10 en o t he opposed to having nominees of the Crowns t ;pia chember at 'Tel though the very same men reig h ,, , i t till seats there by ection. Let the Noble Lord 10 0 ' 0 00 e the colonies last year, and say if he could peintcfstrase where there had not been disturbance and 1 , sod Look at Canada, Ceylon the Mauritius, Pernerar:', s ide the Cape ; were not anxiety)alarm fet 0 0 e ve " A ill _ . and • ta s ee lest the vacillation of the Government s li°3 `ll ° °ll ' severing them from the mother countryl_t f e e ling' fessed that ho was one who shared L US u a 1 Oa though it would have had no existence Pn o 11 01 Noble Lord sta.! el last year his liberal view: l a me same able and comprehensive manner as h e of t he 0° ; that night. But what had been the course t'' ve ers,. vernment towards the colonies for the last thr e : r i ollo A constitution was sent to New Zettiand au :ie O il ' within a year; a dispatch seriously affecting 4001 condition f Canada, seet out and re volsia,"tia OP month; a c e olony founded in Nurthern Atto r s s oo net t h a t on° l t he or aLandoned, after incurring a great extiense• _ va t sec h this u vacillation, and was it surprising this should produce irritation in the min ds u ad lonists. s alon, •,,'" Colonel THOMPSON would propose a 0 1 ,4 -asset or answer to which would be ieteresting te largesrb ote"," the country. In the colonial constitutions WeLeborigi.o.l are to be, is provision made for admitting the of s n near i and their descendants to the full erjoyreent t ; l ' en°, u n ' ' privileges,. on their complying with rses°, ll3 " e P O-- e a t d t e o r ns ? It aas clear, for instance, that the sse. * nritis stood in precisely the same 'position as..',hso b e ancestors did to the :Romans -41ioar.) I' , ' d c °° . chose to " clothe his pink'd and inted hid e,' t i3 l s the " ta le '. f Wl' le'- firm t) the rules and habits of E P n 3 glisla Iscc i ' 3 eere PA! way open to him to the - priVileges e f a Tishman," like any ether of trio elements out c, that heterogeneous being had been comeeu ndc ,tt 0 (1 1 Mr. UAWES had : at'sfaction is stating ' ' rivi leg s ( B f ritish rule aborigines were entitled to evsrYivilbesel v British-born subjects, and in fact were su) J. they complied with ptovisions ma le and Pr0; 1 ,, e ,. t he P i The resolution for leave to bring in a Dili ' ci " N ea l "' v T e n r e nment of the Austrul'an colonies was then eg os or' House thereupon resumed, and the terrt dered to be brought up on Monday The County Cess (Ireland) Bill 3l a this time was re and passed. PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELANII)O°' Sir W. SOMERVILLE moved, pursuant t°oeess.il:, for leave to bring i n a Bill to restiain Party P r s s tirt eP ' in Ireland. He would take that opportunitY; t he t . : 4 1 ° ,,; stating to the House the reasons that induce-10014P; vernment to ask leave to introduce it, and h e rge" 10 .,.1 state very briefly the nature cf the Bill. The fit"; was av are that the present was not the fir°„a. ~'" ,-; legislation upon that subject had been attelePl",o twi g fortunately, in former times party processions % t og i place, and collisions had occurred. Various,. rea so ° had been made by proclamation and the inte e but e 4 tj ; influential personages to st )p those proceediegF'd i0 19 ,„ : e fortunately their efforts had been unavailing, a u tra irn''' a Bill had been introduced fthe (3f lei ll' -sr them. purpose , t i t sl, t o That Bill was for a limited period , e ll in sfersl a ✓e 'fed at different times , and at length ws t 'ilia" - el expire in 1845. From that time to the present stoppioe been no legislative enactment for putting dow i l o t r oo P eee f ti r o t e v d e r f n o m r putting en t and . these processions. He wished he could add t" s ; bo eff' 2- 11 o si f tY th e e x G is a othersstop thoadthbe:a; b u ll e t ,r ; 0 - e r a ttl o n I f t t f e e mo is . unavailing, although on the hof cel ls d r t. ' roac ..,„„ and ars series they bad directed additional nsiht7Shs ces _ A s" b ITC to be sent to the localities dia - 3 rues apprehended. That had been atlwienrevain thesei l Dgt 11°4 1 s l i i ons still took place—collisions were stilt eecurT, Oa 1 • feeling still prevailed. In such a state Of t hi f u lhe If; was to bo done? It was evidently the chit) ? °,, ge d) v ii i gislaturo to endeavour (since o ther mean it eiaig,,btil special legislation to abate such a systcnn . n a hetr a - s that at common law these processions were PO' ot lt t : misdemeanours, but that often became a delic ° l t he i ll barrassing duty to magistrates. The o bject 0 t he s' i tc he had the honour of proposincs was to relle ttg i ntid d „, that had expired in 1845. lleilid not mean to t ; Or any particular case, and it was his wish pct' OR' The Bill was not aimed at any particular VO L VO I te h d he did allude to any particular party, he rilignidie . 0 risk of disturbing the unanimity which be a e .,: t ees'', from all sides of the House. Ha was sure tr s ' esc;s Hen. Gentleman in that House who did not feel : city of putting a stop to these processions. ." bet te i l alone the loss of Fie . and destruction of proPer,,Sl',s of tl r r o i they tended to keep alive and awake fsei'4l3e'rettV"; mosity between neighbours and friends ► ,9ll",,-as 5 1 ° 5 -6 the material prosperity of the country. ' P' e 0 v id o t ; that was a state of things that every getlernel'ooottiel,•• ever side of t's.e House he sat, was desiruns () se ' 5 _,r o e l stop to. The Bill proposed to deal with offef; /OP" 1 description, as the former did, by s umnsarY 5 - 1" h . and it was also proposed to make 1 perPss,ttg ' bic" Ica Leave was then given to bring in - the ,; 0 :'._ 11 a le subsequently brought in andreadsfirst P-1711;1"-- RA ' On the motion of oftse build' the SOLICIT hie Ps 'ld' na hut It eve wasgiven . to bring in a Bill to e Ice - ti tise 0 having limited e d interests in land in Ireland t a itate 0 , in an improving leases. Al Bill to e-eatable tro°l4 Also a., _ so , w est better secure the administration atonal' 7, 110 Pl' eoli' Mr. TURNER I o r , loed the provisions 0 rt ecl t ill be such that those trusts would not be tit° for loYe d float purposes, but that they would be erDP grsi benefit of - the poor. ad ° The Bills . were brought in and severelly re time. ele c/( ' The Home adjourned at Half-past Elev en u „,,„ 10 1 A MAN ROASTED.—We scarcely e le n r s v il s s ;i e n r a P n e ; t t r o at c e h d ro a ni f e a l w e a da m y ore revolting o utrage ta” nton "'" to don, near s Somor s to a n g . nc A iad i m l ere , or w A as l i d e r n i , nking d Paul Hill. o A in stnahealplagrinarf, en:raraort!adscoilti i i n ui t il he h h ad ou p se ara ef ha b se is h a u t t s rao ti r e i r tgo, who bad given them a . lo re P - (ir e over, and a party of seven or eight persons _ ar ty r e .., posed making over the apple juice. Some Allenhe Part tnis portion, to send for tobacco, and asked lto pal i 3O _ l.ic which Isnyl:seirttho,rieaisfgt ueblocked .I e e a apv i Tp o e d r h d t efh e rne r e st t hah o hefi u c me o almoopy: l et al:ren. li r e ,1 01.: eoc Flago i 1 11 i m e r a a l n 110 011 : 3 tl, there for a period of, it is said, t ° s" e ssnY' oY' Por fellow ,5 00045 get off his small clothes the fl:sh of his le'dongelltio with his garments, an d b e no w lies in a verfweisti, ey, state. Ralph Neville, Eq., attended by 111. ' i‘ rjf' ''' ( n 7 1 , .. magistratt a' clerk, went down to the house . 10 1g be day to tak his 'depositions, but hood I' o l o °t. I headed, and unable to give a connected n e co 1,0 t oil t affair.— Sherborne Journal. iii t ic re we lly. [ADVERTIMMUNT ]— A remarkable Town by Holloway's Pills and Ointment.--01:°r ilollepieso" Wellington -bridge , Hobart Town, writes *baj.,, P e der th Pills and Ointment enjoy high re utation in h 7 e o 0,,,, g Land ; he speaks of one man wh o . for P yews h ad bee diii3O,-„rop; treatment of the medical practitioners, an • 0 lb t i from the hospital as incurable, and had bec° ° „boat : R i ve A S emaciated and weak that he could only relbi, colb.:-,1;o0;, assistance of persons supporting him. 10 , s o n i 'w e llthi p commenced using these medicines, which ha l , t out h os s lookingrvnoyated his health that he is now become a . to tb s oi man, and his cure he solely attribut!" ...gilts, Holloway's 11 drub t p o d o o' 4 0 ' Professor Holloway 's Ointment.E,tablishm Establishment, 244 , a i t 0 guano der3 o On the 4th inst., Airs. Anderson, Nirif e o O u t . Weir : r o, l' it' Esq., of Gateacre near Liverpool, of a s „„ r y, On the sth inst at P k t ace, gig' " , Tboa l , Park-terrace , .Ca Scott, of a son. • On the 6th inst 'II fd t cet wife oi the W irk , ~ a - ere or -s r , S. Cocks, jun., Esq., M.P., of a son. : ItorvP On the Gth inst., at Danover-terrace, letiligsiinteir. Notting-bill, the wife of Dr. Jackson, of 6 d3 eld O es n t os t s h o e n ß o t f h l i v n . st. at DejnitgrfCEph.apel,ll 0 tot rwe opc _robe tv.„ Buckland, Esq.' of Wrgsuortso)l:etio to On the eldest daughter of John Poulton, Est: osforuford, eUv that t I c l i e y 5. th inst, at S. Martin's 131a:e!c:e,e, t` James Chambers, M.A., of All Souls C . " jott , of to Charlotte Ann, youngest daughter of Boho l heft' • On the sth inst., at hove Church, the . 11,r , Vi t vla i 3L l r sl l9 re l ‘ Brighton. l s o o d n g , e, youngest scn of ie Robertson, I , sq'.' ' youngest daughter of the late J. Watson, 'IA.' it a DD , _ o re, On the 2d inst at Nola-crescent Bedford b L i Dalton, the wife 'Of Yr. A. D. FriPP: On the sth inst , at Hyde-parksquare, a aged 21,30-tijoi molt tii • second daughter of J. Bethe'l, Esq. ~7 islrs. 59 °0 On the 6th inst. , at East Dulwich, age d ' ' widow of the late David Samudi. lrr ° 11 w ort WL. i. i' On the 6th inst., in Chichester -place, $l3 Mr. Samuel Hawgood, sem, aged 80. ~ ~ W ider ° On the sth inst., at Margate, aged 94, Alai-0 , o g r, late John Boys, Esq. ies ere° , On the 4th inst., Ur. John Tyara, of Cha r „._. i ::quare, aged 70. ---- - _,10 , ? , ------ ---- --",, -pu' l'' 'L' 14°. 0 London; Printed and Published by atifice, oti No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The so _ to ce Strand, in the Precinct of they ava. ui bUddlailoa, Saturday , February lBs°' THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY_ EVENING, FEBRUARY 9, 1850.