The Sun. — London, England, 1851-05-27 00:00:00

Bill wa • opposition. the House the Bill of Roman Ca ?ligion, nor Ina of the t the Noble umption of for though and of no he part of cal power. igion, but, affairs in a .—(Hear.) ure of the I a doubt inn', but ture of the !tome, he Not that wcr could , but, at ay he was ly done in m of that resisting the Noble taken the no doubt adopting could be a church er, web 4 et heard v in Ire missible lthough ohibited declara• ~ et that If that o adopt ' hatever, onforred aar that oy title d--that ixistent mid re a title atter of was the )uld, or to the hat the at that and, in , could eclara me it ff.- , c.t it om the treated tie was but the ady in 1 to fall ma of cation THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY cemenendam, and not to a dissenting church, such as !Ise at present the Roman Catholic is I-elend.—(Hear.) !Aloe s ea•e was thereture no precedent iu this instance, for when Lalor was tried the belief in tee Rod an Ca tholic religion was proscribed in this country, and it Fonsequeatly had no benefices or other property. Lalor had, however, done what would have been illegal at any time —he had (the Hon. and Learned Gentleman quoted ?ore the State Trials) instituted divers persons to the lienefices containing the cure of souls, had pronounced divorcee, and had performed all other acts pertaining to the spiritual jurisdiction. But passing that period alto gether, and coming down to later legislation, he (Mr. 4 eogh) had a right to appeal to the Noble L .rd, net as a lawyer, but as a man legislating for all classes of her 1 41 ftivsty's subjects. Turning to the legi,la ion of 1846, (Mr, Keogh) asked the attention of the Hon. Member f or' Ripen to the fact as regarded the statute of that Year, whether it was the intention of the Government of t hat day to keep in force the ancient laws referred to by the Noble Lord and the leeal advisers of the Crown? Turning to that statute, so cavalierly treated by the Solicitor-Gen —it was not the only Act he treated cavalierly, though it certainly was easy enough for him to done in front nt 250 Nitnist-rialists, and with the an tWering jeers of 300 or 400 Members of the Opposi tion—he (Mr. K.oesh) called the attention of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to the mistakes 4.f his pre decessors an& coil-nen:ls in this matter. The 6 - h sec tion of the Aen of 1816 stated that the consideration of CI charitable dunce in and concerning the usages and discipline of. the Roman Catholic Church should be re ferred to a Committee of the Commissioners appointed ender-the Act. professing the Roman Catholic religion; thet , whon ' by reason of any division, a dispute should arise, this Committee should certify who, according to the 'usage- and discipline of the Roman Catholic Church, should take the devise or bequest in question, and that the'Commiesioners, in Which were included Protestants Wedl tea Catholics—the Protestant Archbishop of Ar taagh and others—were bound by the Act of Parliament to acknowledge the usage and discipline of the Reniau Catholic Church, as certified to them by the Roman Ca tholic hishopi.—(Hear, hear.) The 15th section of the Act enabled persons to convey property for the use and maintenance of the archbishops, bishops, deans, &c.. of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. He (Mr. K), tinder these circumstances, asked the Solicitor-General how was it to be ascertained who was archbishop or bishop according nfthe usage of the Roman Catholic Church? Was it not by reference to the bull creating them? —(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. K.) cast aside the bonsense about the Synod of Thurlee; also the letters attributed to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and he asked the Noble Lord to refer to the official demand ad dressed to the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland, by Lord Castlereagb, in the Government of Mr. Pitt, as to Whence they derived their titles, what was their income &c. It was dated August, 1799, and will be found in the second volume of " Lord Castlereagh's Memoirs," Its addressed to Dr Troy. " Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin," together with the :in sisters thereto, signed by the " R4man " Catho lie Metropolitans of Armagh, Dublin, Team, and Cashel. With this fact before him, did the Noble Lord Pretend to ignore the existence of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland? Did the Solicitor-General mean to tiny that the Legislature of 1844, with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth at its head, intended to leave room for the Government to come down in 1851 with a Bill such as that of the Noble Lord—" a thing of shreds and patches," borrowed from both sides of the. House—to destroy the religious liberties of a third.of the people of this country? The Master of the Rolls, in the earlier discussions. on the Bill, said that thin gs should be done in as quiet a manner as possible. Ie (Mr. Keogh) called the attention of the House to the insidiousness of the words. The Solicitor-General, however, when pressed by the Hon. Member for Dun dalk, said that the Bill did nothing, except declare the law as it stood. He (Mr. Keogh) asked the Noble Lord if there was a shadow'.of a doubt on the case, was he Prepared to pass the clause , The House of Commons had: been for the last thirty years trying to set right the legislation of centuries: was the Noble Lord prepared to Peralyse those efforts by placing under the ban the re ligion of one-third of the people?—(Hear.) The asser tion of the Solicitor-General was hastily and indis ereetly made; in Ireland the hierarchy had been always existent—there were no vicars apostolic. The clause Under notice, however, would render illegal the source and fountain whence that hierarchy derived its ecele liastical authority. Was it desirable to do this? Was the Government prepared to adopt the clause of a poli tical opponent? He (Mr. Keogh) called on the Noble Lord in conclusion to restrict the application of the reeasnre; and he moved, therefore, with the view of pre serving the rights of the Roman Catholic Church in Ire land, that the word "England" should be inserted in the clause. Lord J. RUSSELL—I had expected to hear from the Ilon. and Learned Gentleman an argument to prove that the clause before the House is not founded on law. bear.) We have heard from Hon. and Learned members on every side of the House that this clause is explicit—that it lays down the law of England as it stands—and that it cannot be contravened by any law. I have listened in vain for any proof that this is not the case in the speech of the. Hon. and L e a rned Gentleman. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman has told the House for the third or fourth time that the Bill is inoperative; but as for argument to show it, he has not favoured us With any. What is the evil which is proposed to be /Mended? A. rescript of the Pope, or a paper purport ting to be a rescript, has appeared, founding an arch bishopric to be called the Archbishopric of Westminster, and founding various bishoprics in subordination to it, much as the bishoprics of Birmingham, Southwark, Clif. 14351 , and twelve other sees.—(Hear, hear.) It was affirmed in the preamble of the original Bill that the attempt to establish such sees and provinces was illegal and void e and in conformity with that preamble this clause says, that " that rescript therefore shall, and shall be deemed to be, unlawful and void." One would expect, under these circumstances, that t he Honourable and Learned Gentleman would show that tho See of Rome had power and authority by law to establish archbishoprics and bishoprics in this country before lie called on the House to reject this clause. Has t h Remand Learned Gentleman done so? — (Hear.) If be has lion then he has not made an argument against the clause.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentle man has raised various arguments against the extension of this clause to Ireland, but as to the chief affirmation !Nest it, he has shown no cause whatever for comply lag with his desire. I next come to the assertion of the true discrepancy between the statements of the Hon. Learned Lenrned Member for Micihurst and my Hun. and Friend the Solicitor-General. The Hon. and tteearned Member for Midhurst is asked if the clause ap- Plied to England; and he replies that it did, because it is s neciallen calculated to apply to the rescript of the 29th of September, at which it was expressly aimed. The 'night Hon. Member for the University of Oxford then Raid if this was the effect of the clause it would get the Government into great contradiction with itself ; for that they were about to say it was unlawful for the Pope to establish a bishopric in England, while it was left t open to !aim to create in Ireland any see he wished, and ae referred to the new bishopric of Ross recently established in that country. Whereupon the Solicitor• General said, "It by no means followed, for that the clause did not apply specially to England alone, but Was a declaration of the law by Parliament, that if it Was illegal to establish sees in England it was therefore Illegal to establish them in Ireland, seeing that the law all the subjeot was the same in both countries since oyning's Act, and that the courts of law would so in terpret it."—elear, hear.) I have, however, yet to learn that these answers are at variance.—(Hear, hear.) If they are not, then is there no discrepancy between the affirmations of the Hon. and Learned Member for Mid burst and my lion. Friend the Solicitor-General. But, said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, if this be the ease. the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion is Practically forbidden in Ireland. The Hou. and Learnnd Gentleman, however, made no way in showing this te: be the case, nor in proving that the law in Ireland gave the Pope more power to establish sees and provinces than it gives him in this country. The Hon. and, L earne d Gentleman began by contradicting the authority of Lalor's case as not good law in this. Mr. KEOGH explained. He did no say so. H o laid, if it was based on these grounds, Vnat it would be Within the le,w. Lord J. VITSSELL—It was no desubt part of the case; but could the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland be forbidden if the case did not apply?—(Hear, hear.) The statute under wh ; .ch Lslor was convicted, however, was a statute passe.d when the Reman Catholic religion was the religion of the country—namely, the Act Richard II.; and therefore the argument of the Ron. and Learn. ei Gentleman does not apply in the case. The authority in Lalor's case is, that ho exer cised powers de rived from Rome; that is w hat we com bat this day.—{Hear, hear.) The Ron. gives powe r r ne t d o Gentleman fin cis in the Bequests Act some a ut h or i ty Which, according to his int , srpretation, iv the Roman Catholic Church to organize itself in Ireland as it may choose. In all the arguments we have had on the subject, the Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland, though they might rot assume the titles, are admitted to have exercised their functions within the ancient die eases, and they have not been interfered with so long as their acts were net in contravention of the law of the land. That was the state of things which it was wished to retain, and no reason presented itself why any inter ference should be made with the Roman Catholic bishops in the exercise of their functions. But the Bequests Act, instead of being, as the Honourable and Learned Gentleman said, a solemn and public recognition of the Roman Catholic prelates' powers and authority, was an Act, as be had before said, carefully, sedu lously, and, he would add, skilfully drawn up so as to avoid suds an iinferenoe. The Aet did not say " bishops exercising jurisdiction," or, " Roman Catholic prelates ruling over aui governing dioceses ;" but " bishops offi ciating" not vsithin any diocese, but " within any dis trict ;" so that whether archbishop, bishop, or vicar apostolic, the prelate would be recognised by law as a right rev. prelate " officiating in that district." It was further considered it might be a question with re spect to &VM Catholic priests in any districts in which they might officiate US to the authority—whether from the bishop, or iron Rome—by virtue of which they exer cised their functions. That difficulty might have caused considerable embarrassment, for if a case came before the Court it 'fins seen by the authors of the Bill that Roman Catholic priests to whom charitable bequests were made could not take the money bequeathed to them by a title not legal, or under a doubtful title. It was, however, provided that questions of such a nature, if they arose, should be referred so committee composed solely of Roman Catholic Commissioners, these Commissioners being requited to decide the question of Itho was to re ceive the money according to the rules of their Church, and to report, not that a certain person was priest of a particular 'parish, or that a certain person was the Bishop of Limerick or any other place, bat to report evil° was to receive benefit according to the in. stile of the donor, whet* th 3 Eight Rev. Dr. Ryan, or the Rev. W. O'Connell, or any other person. This was what the C , nntnis ,, ioners were only to reoort, and therefore no question as to the assumption of tileg,l titles could com• before the public. Such was the course taken by the framers of the Bill, which was introduced for useful purposes, and which hal been worked out so as to accomplish those useful purposes. Se, then, with regard to the case of " Lalor," and also the Bequests Act, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had failed to make out that it came within the lawful authority of the see of Rome to erect bishoprics and to give jurisdiction over dioceses in this kingdom. The Hon. anti Learned Gentleman bad attempted to prove even that the Pope had power to do this in Ireland. With reepsct to the practical eff.ct of the Bill, he conceived hardly any part of the Bill—though a Bill for the United Kiugdoai, and which extended throughout the United Kingdom—would have any effect in Ireland. With regard to the bishopric of Galway, it certainly would prevent soy person from assuming the ti:le of Bishop of Galway. If any person were ready to assume the title of Archbishop of Tuarn, it would, no doubt, affect him, and would render the assumption of that title unlawful. %With regard to all other matters in the Bill, it would leave tlenga as nearly as passibl , , in the same s:ate as they were before it passed. With regard to the first elause, it declared that to be law which no Meyer had denied was law—that which the, Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself had not denied was law. The first clause only declared that to bn law which in Ireland, as well as England, was law. With regard to the second clause, that prevented the assump tion of illegal titles by Roman Catholic bishops. If Roman Catholics bishops did assume titles, it would be those of existing bishoprics, such as Armagh and Cork, not the title of new sees. The Bill was directed, as it ought to be directed, to a particular attempt against the Crown, the Parliament, and the nation; and the Ed! did not do anything that was unnecessary to effect that pur pose. On the other hand, if the Bill only made a de- Claration of the law in England it would do this—it would, give rise to the belief that the Pope might create any number of new sees in Ireland, notwithstanding the prerogatives of the Crown, and the, independence of the nation.—(Hear, hear.) Now that he held to be a great change of the constitution and of the law, in derogation of the prerogatives of the Crown and the independence of the nation.(lL tar, hear.) And he trusted the House would not give their sanction to any such pro ceeding.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord continued, with animation—" It may suit the purposes of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and others to make a great agita don in Ireland, and to proclaim interdictions from Tuam that hereafter Roman Catholic bishops and priests would be driven from Ireland, and their chapels levelled with the ground—those statements are made to impose on very ignorant people, but every otie knows in this House that after the Bill passes there will be perfect freedom of conscience for Roman Catholics, with the full and unfettered exercise of their religion.—(Hear,) Some Hon. Members will, doubtless, get up and say the Roman Catholics are the best judges of what is best for, the interests of the Roman Catholic religion. Stop a little, I say to them. I am ready to say you shall have everything necessary for the organization of your Church and for the free exercise of your religion, provided you do not interfere with the rights and religion of others. —(Loud cheers.) So long as you confine yourselves to the appointing of two, four, six, or eight Roman Ca tholic bishops' in England, that is a matter with which I have no concern. Whatever the number of bishops ycu may think necessary_for the organization of your Church, I do not intend to interfere with that, but when you come here and declare you will rule England, her coun ties and places, because it is necessary for the interests of your religion, then I say that under the Act of 1791, by which Roman Catholic priests were free to perform mass, you might as well say you cannot perform mess according to the Roman Catholic religion, unless per formed in Westminster Abbey; and to that my answer would be, you may perform your mass in any chapel you please, but into Westminster Abbey you have no right to come, and into Westminster Abbey you shan't come.—(l,oud cheers.) So I say, organize your Church as you please, only silo w us to preserve our independ ence as a nation, and not to be subject to any foreign power."—(Loud cheers.) Mr. ROCHE said the Noble Lord had mentioned no thing about the archbishopric of Westminster. He had heard accuswione of all kinds against Irish Members during the debate, but the strangest accusation against them had been made by the Noble Lord, who said the Irish Members had been irrelevant in their proceedings, because they debwed the question before the House. There had been no valid reason assigned why Ireland should not be included in the Bill. The only reason given by the Noble Lord was, if Ireland was not in cluded, the Pope at some future time might erect bi shoprics and appoint to new sees, therefore it was neces sary to guard the prerogative of the Crown from the anticipated invasion. It would be impossible to carry out the Bequests Act without going right in the teeth of that clause, which extended the Act to Ireland. As to the charge of getting up bad agitation in Ireland, he would say, if anything did arise from that bad agitation, it would be attributable to the conduct of the Noble Lord himself, who refused to take Ireland out of the Bill. On the shoulders of the Noble Lord, and not at the door of the Irish Members, let the consequences be laid. The Irish Roman Catholic Members objected to this legislation for Eng land, because it infringed the rights and liberties of Eng lish Roman Catholics. Considering the little that had been dime for the cure of the physical sufferings of Ireland by the present Governm e nt s i nce t h e y ha come into power, ho considered it came with a bad grace from the Noble Lord to refuse to take Ireland cut of the Bill. Ireland wanted peace and tranquility. This Bill was uncalled for, and could put as end to those peaceful and fraternal feelings which were beginning to exhibit themselves in Ireland between Protestants and Roman Catholics. The Bill would also operate unjustly on that honest and hard-working class the landlords of Ire land. It would revive religious disputes—religious fa el ings, symptoms of which were to be seen in Ulster, where the bad example of the Noble Lord had been fol owed. He warned those persons that the time would come when they would be not only abandoned by the Noble Lord, but by the Protestant people of England, and left stranded and helpless amidst a body of their ex asperated Irish Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen. The Committee then divided, when there appeared— For the amendment 39 Against it ... ... 84 Majority against the amendment —45 Mr. KEOGH then moved " Provided that nothing in the clause shall be construed to interfere with the eccle siastical and spiritual functions of the Roman Catholic archbishops and bishops in Ireland." The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, the objection to the proviso was this—that the clause on which the pro viso was to be grafted did not affect the position of the archbishops and bishops in Ireland, unless their juris diction and authority were exercised under illegally as sumed titles. If they did so exercise their power and authority, it was impossible to say they did so legally by that Bill (as we understood). Mr. KEOGH said the sincerity of her Majesty Go vernment could only be tested by such amendments as these, and it was only by bringing such amendments for ward that they had the slightest chance of coming to the truth. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said it was unnecessary to include such a proviso in the Bill, for it would not interfere with the spiritual and ecclesiastical functions of the Roman Catholic prelates unless exercised under illegal titles. Tee sophism in that reply was evi dent. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman well knew r ß e i s l c l r t i o p t p s r o o s r e r there could neither be bishops or ar c hbi s h o p s w ithout lette rs apostolic. It w as i nten d e d by the !ee reacripts or letters apostolic, and all he now waive?, to avoid was—that the Bill should ' interfere hi which would they v saide them they e d w i d h o n l o e t clausew i wish t w o it i h ni t e h ,:fer e e fu w n i c th li . ons H w e if tleey liked, but let the Noble Lord say in plain lan- V;eage—let him put in a provision embodying his ides, he did not care about the language—which would prevent that interference which he deprecated. The Noble Lord had said so much about Ireland recently that he would remind the Noble Lord of a time when he was more alive to religious liberty in Ireland, and when his opi nions were very different en the subject of the two este.- ' bliabments to those which he now maintained. He wanted to know why the Noble Lord was so jealous about interfering with the Episcopal Church of Scotland, which did not number so many as 200,000 nersons, while the Irish Roman Catholics were 6,000,000? He wanted to know why the third clause should especially state it was not to extend to the assumption of titles by the Episcopal Church of Scotland? Why should not the I same exemption be accorded to the Roman Catholics of Ireland that had been granted to the Episcopalians of Scotland? If the Noble Lord rejected the present pro position, he should use all the forms of language to re new it, and to tsst the declaration of the Noble Lord in favour of religious liberty. Mr. A. B. HOPE had always voted with the small minority on this question, but could not support the pre sent proposition of the Hon. Member for Athlone, bee cause he considered it to be antagonistic to the free ad ministration of religious liberty. Besides, he did not see why such an amendment should be limited to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. Mr. KEOGH had no wish to separate the case of the community, C Roman athtlica -Of . Ireland from that of the rest of the nitY. and he should therefore eo far alter his amendment - Mr- as to include the United Kingdom. 43 -r- ANSTEY was surprised there should be any op- Position to the amendment, for if the preamble were not greatly altered, lhe. c l ause , with or without the amend ment, would not to the people though not ne ta apply to Ireland. The amendment, lead, before the might make the clause less objec tionableßilpiteof Ireland, and above all it might agitation altogether from the Bill. Be a clause exempti n g Irelanda3f) Jaw, to the introduction of regretted that the had not been directed solely and diteussion on this ques tionmerni:epeuking on this subject on Ire land from the measure. On b olely to the exclusion of Friday night the lion. Carlow had alluded (Mr. Anstey's) to what ho was pleased to call r ei f s " teme rity in the allegations ho had madeitte on b this subject. lie Member laid such stress a to more than ,I was glad to find that the Hon. 1 on the authority of Lerd Sterol: a sh 1 Roman Catholics had signed their naaFne. The English one declaretion on this matter, and z4ore_eccadoes than one the eentitnente they had expressed all contradictory end ineensiettut with each w o c jb e c "2 ll rlY for one, therefore, paid not the slightest deference" Ha the declaration ref -rred to by the Hoe. Member. Reo begged the attention of the lion. Gentleman to the very important declaration by the clergy of Beverley on this subject, every paragraph of which had been contradicted by all the persons except one who had signed it. In that declaration the clergy of Beverley not onlv pro tested against the rescript, but they addressed Dr. Wiseman, and asked for the establishment of such an ecclesiastical government as might be in ac cordance with the free constitution and equitable laws of this country—they deprecated the intro duction of any new foreign system of ecclesiastical law as hostile to the feelings of the people by whom they were surrounded, and they contended that the attempted restoration Of the hiinardy s instasid of cmdtioing to Slag alvantaee of the Catholic religion; would be the cense of its dettrioreten in England. That address was pre eented to ur. Wiseman, and the result was, that in two or three days afterwards every one of the subscribers received a circular from the Vicar General of York, along with the draft of an address which they were re quested to sign, if approved of, and to return it by post. lie believed that only two of the clergy who bad signed the former address had refused to sign the address sent to them by the Vicar- General, which contained a distinct retraceation of every sentiment expressed in the first address, and an expression of gratitude to Dr. Wiseman for having restored the hierarchy.—(Hear.) He was ieformed that the two clergymen who had so refused to stultify themselves had been, he would not say suspended, from their incumbencies, but had been displaced.— (Hear.) The Hon. Member for Tipperary had asked him what proof he could produce of the assertion which he had male regarding the petition to the Pope. The House was no doubt aware that in 1837 the late Pope put forth a document with regard to a hierarchy, and propceed to refer to the clergy themselves the duty of settling their own form of government. Every , thing was to be done here, and nothing at Rome. The clergy ay well as the laity accepted the proposal with alacrity, but it was not agreed to at Rome, Dr, Wisemae, who was then agent there, having objected to the scheme as trencbine toe much on episcopal autho rity. Petitions were therefore sent to -the Pope from certain Roman Catholies here offering to stand by him against the bishops, and to one of those petitions the Hon. Member fur Tipperary had put his name.—(Hear, hear.) In that petition the Hon. Member, among others, told the Pope that so far from this country being ripe for a hierarchy, it waa in all probability doomed to re main for generations a missionary country, and he called on the Pope to protect the priests as well as the laity in this country against the attempts that were csonteal ,plated by certain parties at Rome. • That was the an swer he had to make to the Hon. Member for Tipperary. The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY wished to ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman whether he ad dressed the House as a Catholic or not?—(oh, oh!) Mr. ANS FEY rose amid cries of " Don't answer." He sail as a question had been put to him, he should like, if in order, to answer it. He should be exceedingly sorry to retaliate on the Noble Lord, but could not re train from expressing his astonishment that any Member should commit the unpardonable insolence of putting such a question to another Member touching his religion. —(Cheers.) If permitted to answer the Noble Lord, he might say he was to the full as good a Catholic as the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.) The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said that was all he wanted. The question, he thought, was a fair one.—(Loud cries of " No, no.") When the Hon. and Learned. Gentleman got up and expressed sentiments totally at variance with the feelings of the great body of the Catholics of this country, he thought be had a right to ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman if he spoke as a Catholic or not.—(Expressions of dissent.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman being a Catholic was no doubt aware how Catholics changed their minds, for he recol lected the Hon. and Learned Gentleman once making a speech of five hours against the Noble Lord the Secre tary for Foreign Affairs, and yet, when the Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield brought forward, last year, his motion for a vote of confidence in that Noble Lord, the Hon. and Learned Member for Youghal sup ported it. With respect to the signatures to the paper alluded is by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman he knew nothing, but he presumed that, after some consideration, those who had signed it thought better of the matter.— (Laughter.) However that might be, he did not deny that among English Catholics—as among other reli gious bodies—there might be a few discontented mem bers opposed to the discipline which the head of the Church thought it his duty to impose. Mr. NAPIER did not think there was any difference between the law of England and the law of Ireland on this question. Lalor was doubly convicted—first on the Act of Elizabeth, and again on the Act of Richard 11., which still remained the law of the land. Allusion had been made to the Charitable Bequests Act, but he had never known any of the diocesan or paro chial documents brought into a court of law. He observed with regret the attempt made to mislead the people of Ireland as to the nature of this measure, which was purely defensive in its character, and aimed not against the Roman Catholic religion in this country, but against ultramontanism.—(Hear, hear.) It had been admitted by the ultramontane press that the appoint ment of Dr. Cullen was a first attempt on the part of the Pope to the usual mode of nominating bishops in Ireland. In his opinion they had nothing to do with matters of discipline, but only with overt acts, and to saw whether or not they were in accordance with the laws of the land. If the Pope's rescript was not a lawful document, and if certain restrictions in conse quence of it were to be imposed on Roman Catholics, who was to blaeneP—(Hear, bear.) He was clearly of opinion that it was an unlawful document. Mr. ANSTEY said a difference existed in the law of Ireland and England on this subject. The Emancipation Act tolerated a hierarchy in Ireland, but only permitted the system of vieers apostolic in England. Mr. M. GIBSON understood the Hon. and Learned Member for Athlone to consent to extend his amend ment to the United Kingdom. When they considered the monstrous injustice of forcing the Irish people to pay for a Church they did not acknowledge, and, in the next place, of telling them that they should not have the Church of their own choosing, he thought there were strong reasons why Ireland should be included in the amendment. They had imposed Protestant bishops upon Ireland, and yet they would not allow the Roman Ca tholics in Ireland to have bishops of their own.—(Hear, hear.) There was, in fact, something so unjust in the whole of this proceeding that he could hardly condescend to enter into the details. New declaring that bulls ap pointing bishops were void, and those bishops ordaining priests, he wished to know did they mean to declare that such ordination was unlawful? They had, to use the words of Jeremy Taylor," suffered disobedience to grow into Custom ;" and yet they were now reviving an old law for the purpose of persecution. And, doing this, they did not provide against common informers proceed ing against Raman Catholic bishops. " They ought to provide that no proceeding by indictment could be in stituted, without the consent of The Crown. They ought to do this, for there could be' no doubt that the animus of the whole proceeding was the old No Popery" cry, for there was a desire in this country to check by psnal legislation the progress of the Roman Catholic religion:—(Hear, hear.) Sir H. W. BARRON observed that they had allowed the law for the last hundred years to be violated; and now there was a revival of the.old law. They made of tbat old a new law, for the purposes of persecution; and the men who did this were playing a double game with a double face. He believed the .measure was introduced by a party in that House for the purpose of raising a popular cry in its favour. It 'was to create discord in that House amongst those who would be otherwise united on general subjects. Was there any man in or out of that House who had the audacity to say that the Queen's prerogative was invaded by the appointment of Roman Catholic bishops? The Queen had no preroga tive for appointing Roman Catholic bishops. The Queen never had appointed Roman Catholic bishops. It had been asserted that the act of the Pope was an insult to this country; but in what sense, ho asked, could it be so? How were they insulted? How were they invaded? What civil or religious rights had been taken from them? Had the Roman Catholic bishops taken posses sion of any of the glebes of the Established Church? He contended that the Roman Catholics had the right, as free born men in a free country, to exercise their reli gion according to its written law; and if Government desired to abolish that religion, let them do it openly and not underhandedly. He should give the clause his most decided opposition. Captaiu TAYLOR said that not having had the op portunity of addressing the. House upon the second reading of the Bill, he was desirous of stating that he was !Luscious the House should record its strong disap• probation of what had been termed the Papal aggres sion, and repel it in the most vigorous manner. But he must say be did not think the Bill did that. At the close of last autumn he, in common with many others, was misled by the letter of the Noble Lord into the be lief that immediately upon the meeting of Parliament come measure would be 'proposed in accordance with that letter; but he cont e el that he was grievously dis appointed when he roe. a details of the Ecclesiastical Assumption Bill, nd saw how weak and ineffec• tive its clauses were.—(Hear, hear.) For his part, he preferred ibe passing of a resolution declaratory of the illegality of the measures taken by the Papacy, and the appointment of a Committee to examine into the ex isting state of the law, and report as to the mode in which the evil complained of might best be met. Mr. REYNOLDS said that that " defender of the faith," the lion. Member for Marylebone (Sir B. Hall), had on Friday night proposed that there should be morning sittings until this Bill had passed through the H ouse . That proposition was an insult to the Irish Members, and the small minority of English Members who had voted with them; 'and whose names should be oh, and laughter.) "They might u tt er t h e i r '' Ohs I " wr itt e n, to their eternal honour, i n l etters of gold.— (Oh, and their ironical cheers if they pleased; but he repeated peopla.—(Renewed laught er .) H e s h ould not that their names should be engraven upon th e h earts o f p th u 3 t the lr converse,ish and tell the majority how their names would be received in Ireland.—(ob, oh.) He believed that majority had been driven to the adoption of the course on which they had entered. They were, in fact, talking to 'their constituents, and voting in order that the division lists might be read at the hustings ; because they know they had evoked a spirit of bigotry and into rs lerattee that might cost them their seats in the event of ) He spoke it dissolutiona venture to name, who had told him that they wi s h e d th e advisedly. He of knew Parl more iatnen H t.— on ( . (I,mobh.e than he would Bill was at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean; but they had been coerced to vote for it by a spirit of intol erance which it was impossible for them to resist.—(oh, oh.) The Hon. Member for Marylebone had stated that the opponents to this Bill were placing impottent business is abeyance. He (sir. Reynolds) would be glad to know what important bueintss was to be found upon the paper? Had the Government put upon it any proposal t o ex tend the Petliamentary franchise? Nu; they had post d • session, in the hope that they would pone._ it until ;4.0 • , • then be aisle to make a Cab-i-net question of it.— (Laushter.) Had they proposed any measure to re lieve the working men of England and Scotland from the intolerable pressure of indirect taxstion.—(oh, oh, and cries of " Question, question.")' They had not. Had they put upon the paper any notice of a motion to relieve the hard-working professional man from the grievous burden of the incornedax? No ; they had not.—(Re newed cries of " Oh, oh," and Question.") What mea sure of importance had the Government upon the paper? —(Question, question.) Now, he hoped the Committee wnutd permit the business before them to be done in a proper manner--(Loud cries of " Question" from Mr. Wawn.) He (Me. Reynolds) hoped the Hon. Member for South Shields would conduct himself in - a sober mall' nor. 7 (Cri,:s e t "-Order ; Orden') He tri4ed , that he , would not be compelled to repeat that observation. On Saturday nigbt 1 Mr. WA W N—No, no ; not Sagearday.—(Laughter.) Mr. REYNOLDS (turtling round and looking signi• ficantly at Mr. Wawn, who sat upon one of the extreme benches at the extreme end of the opposition side of the House) said that the lion. Gentleman had again thought proper to interrupt him. Mr. WAWN—Mr. Chairman, I rise to order. I want to know whether the Hon. Member for Dublin is to speak truth or falsehood in this House.—(Order.) The CHAIRMAN—The Lion. Member for South Shields has made use of words which are clearly disorderly. Mr. WAWN—I br , g pardon, Sir, if I have said any thing disorderly; but I wish to ask you or any other Member of this House what you or he was doing on Saturday night?—;Roars of laughter.) Mr. REYNOLDS—It had been often said that a child might ask a quesion which it would puzzle a philosopher to answer.—(Hear, hear.) He dared say that it would be almost impossible to ask him (the Chairman) a question that would puzzle him more to answer than that—what they were all doing on last Saturday night?—(Laughter.) Passing, however, frem that subject, he would refr to the motions of the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncomhe) and the Hon. and Learn d Member for Abingdon (Sir F. The siger), in discussing which but a very small portion of the night was occupied. He thought, it, therefore, un reasonable to censure the Irish Members for occupying the time of the Howe. Bat he intended not to make an apology for himself or his Hon. Friends; for let it be understood that this was a life and death question with them. There was involved in this question one whether they were to have free altars or not? He would not say " happy homes," for by their ill-direeted legislation they had put an end to happy homes in Ireland.—(•` Hear from the Irish Members.) Th e N o bl e L or d at t h e h ea d of the Government said that this Bill would be as mild a measure in Ireland as could be proposed. How, then, would the Noble Lord be able to satisfy the Members who were supporting him from the Opposition benches? If this measure were such a one as the Noble Lord described it, it was then evident that he was passing bad coin upon the sound Protestant Members of that House, and he (Mr. Reynolds) doubted net but that they would vote against him if they believed his statement in this respect to be quite true. He wished to put a question to the Noble Lord who, he supposed, was somewhat tired of answer ing questions asked him by the opponents of his Bill. He (Mr. Reynolds) dared say that the Noble Lord was disposed to call them animated notes of interrogation.— (Langhter.) His question to the Noble Lordwas—Did he intend this Bill, in all its integrity, to apply to Ire land? The Solicitor-General °aid " No, not in terms;" but by the construction of an Irish judge it would ex tend to Ireland. But the Hon. Member for Midburst, in saying that it would not extend to Ireland, gave very different reasons for such an opinion. But even if it be only confined to England, he would tell them on the part of Ireland that they were prepared to stand by the Eng lish Catholics to the very end of the struggle. This was more their battle than that of the Irish people. The Irish Catholics were strong, but the English were weak; and the Irish Catholic representatives would fight the cause for them with as much zeal and perseverance as their own. He intended not to use menacing language towards the authors of this Bill, but if they passed an Act that would impose pains and penalties upon the Catho lic hierarchy of Ireland it would be a dead letter, for no Government would have the power to carry it into effect. How did the Noble Lord reconcile his present insulting, bigotted, and he would almost call it atrocious legislation with his former political acts regarding Ire land ?—(Hear, hear.) In a speech delivered by the Noble Lord in 1835, in the discussion upon the appro priation clause debate, the Noble Lord spoke ably and argumentatively, as he always did except on the Papal Aggression Bill—(Laughter)—for upon that he breaks down—he was doing a job that neither God nor nature intended for him. The work was too heavy for him, and he was unable to get through it himself, and indeed he had not obtained much assistance from his colleagues. —(Hear, hear.) But to refer to his speech in 1835, when he was speaking of the Protestant Church in Ire land with all its temporal abominations, the Noble Lord then said that the entire number of Protestants in Ire land could hardly be stated higher than 750,000, to sup port the clergy of whom the enormous sum of 800,000/. a year was exacted from the population, of which the remainder were Roman Catholics. The Noble Lord then referred to a number of dioceses for the pur pose of showing the extraordinary disproportion that existed between the Catholic and Protestant population of Ireland. Mr. WAWN—What year was that? Mr. REYNOLDS continued—The Noble Lord then ended his speech with this resolution:—" That this House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole Hous e for the purpose of considering the temporalities of the Church of Ireland." The Noble Lord having then car ried his motion the Ministry of the day were dislodged, and the appropriation clause was from that shy placed in the tomb of all the Capulets.—(Laughter and cheers.) The Protestant Church of Ireland was in all its tem poral integrity, although the Noble Lord had been Prime Minister of the country for many years.—(Bear, hear.) Up to this hour the Noble Lord had never even whis pered a word about the Irish Protestant Church, except for the purpose of strengthening it, nor sheathe tempo ralities of that Church but to increase them. The pre sent measure, which would subject an Irish Catholic bishop to a penalty of 1001., or in default of payment to be conveyed to a felons' gaol, was the Noble Lord's ap propriation clause for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Why, it was enough to make the blood boil in the veins of an Irish Catholic with indignation. He appealed to the English Members of that House to say how they would like to be treated as the Irish Roman Catholics were treated. In 1841 Ireland contained a population of 8,200,000. Famine had done its work since. But there was an artificial famine and a Government famine abroad. His country people were dying in the workhouses, which were properly called slaughter-houses, dying on an average at the rate of 2,000 a week, for want of the common necessaries of life. And the remedy for all their wants was this in sulting and atrocious Bill. Why was the Protestant Church the Established Church of England? Why was the Presbyterian Church the Established Church of. Scotland? Why, because the majority of the people in either country belonged to the Protestant and Presby terian Churches. But why was the Protestant Church the Established Church of Ireland? For reasons diame trically opposite.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") There were some English Members of Parliament who were no doubt remarkable for the bump of self-esteem, which was so large that it neutralised every other bump. Such Members as these had told t h e C atholic Members of that House that if they occ u pi e d any more of their time they would hav e day sittings—(Hear, hear.) Well, he (Mr. Reynolds) would say, let them commence their day sittings, and then they would see which would be tired first.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord was a kind of lay Pope over the Established Church. But to pass on to the Hon. and Learned Member for Youghal (Mr. Anstey), who had borne false witness against the creed he prof , ssed—(" Question," from Mr. Wawn.) Mr. LAWLESShere rose to order. He said it was quite true that they were a small party, d e t erm i n ed t o oppose a Bill which they considered of a most unjust and persecuting character; but he appealed to that House whether the interruptions which were so frequently offered to the Hon. Member for Dublin by the Hon. Member for South Shields were not disorderly ? Mr. WAWN said he had not interrupted the speak er when he was speaking to the question. But when h e REYNOLDS the cau se o f hi s creed and hisid and to call hi m t o order. said it was rath er too b ad, when he ' diverged to other topics he claimed it to b e hi s pr i v il ege. tow was ms callr endeavouring "Quest erjspl ion, s country, that he was to be exposed to these interruptions. The only excuse he could make for the Hon. Gentle Man was that he was not perfectly conscious of what he was doing.—(Order, ord er. ) Mr. WAWN aga in rose to order. He wanted to kno wif'as an independent Member of that House, he felt himself called upon to discharge a duty expected from him by his constituents, it was right for the Hon. Member for Dublin to hold out language calculated to intimidate him in the discharge of his duty? Mr. REYNOLDS said that when he was last inter rupted he was referring t o the Hon. and Lea r ne d Mem ber for Youghal. H e first thought that he ought not to refer to that Hop. and Learned seentlemen , recollecting that he was a lawyer, and knowing that all lawyers had a laudable anxiety to promote their own interest wher ever they went.—(Hear, and laughter.) But the Hon. and Learned Member bore false witness to his creed. He (Mr. Reynolds) would not allow him or any one else to do so with perfect impunity. But the Hon. and Learned Member was cheered when he was making those statements. No one called him to order when he was calumniating his creed. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman reminded him, on those occasions when he (Mr. Reynolds) had the pain to hear him s p eaki ng on with whose Bill, of a passage in the poe try of that bard with whose name Ireland was closely. identified.. In speaki ng of her representative; who, as in this case, were not al ways her sons, ho might say— " Upraised are her sons till they've learned to betray; Undistinguished they live if they shame not their sires.` torch that would light them to dignity's way Must be caught from the pile where their countr y expires." He thanked God he (Mr. Anstey) was not an Irishman,_ and he was reminded by an Hon. Gentleman to thank h God that he was not. an Englishm an. He m ight call "the disowned"—but he deeply re g ret ted he was an Irish representative, representing a Roman Catholic community. The gratitude which he exhibited towards them in that House was to record his vote when he could against their religious liberty; to calumniate them, and libel them in the senate of the nation. He might be told the Bill would pass, and that it was folly to oppose it. He hoped no Irish representative would enunciate such sentiments in that House. It was now nearly four months since the Bill had been laid before the Hours, and they had not yet passed one clause of five lines long, and it was not clear to him that they would ever . pass it. The m , u who were prorsing it knew it cou ld not witrk; that their declarations and the clause wars in that religious liberty could c:inup tible; not exist in England or Ireland if the cl.-iuse pzsiod; the:efore ho believed that airy themselves must back out of it. But it bad been said that either that Bill or a worse one would be passed. He told the House that the SUMO power which strangled the present Bill would strangle a worse one. At all events the opponents of the measure bad elicited a discussion which had put the question in its true light. They had dispelled the cloud of error which pervaded the country on the sub ject; and row those who had been most anxious for the Bill were beginning to see that the sooner they got rid of it the better. They saw that it was a Bill of pains and penalties, their eyes had been opened to the juggle, and they could not stand if any longer. Ile repeated, they were not wasting the public time, but en deavotirirk - to ,guard - theii - couitu and their. religion fora tlWitillittr,at of 'this =penal . Bill. EVENING, The Marquis of GRANBY said that the Hon. Gen tleman who had just sat down declared that the Pope and the Roman Catholics did not seek to encroach upon the Church of England. Ncthir.g could be further from his (the Marquis of Granby's) wish or intention than to interfere with the exercise of their religion by the Roman Catholic or any other sect. But he would read a passage from the rescript to show what the intentions of the fops were And we decree that these our let ters apostolical shall never at any time be objected against or impugned, on pretence either of omission or of addi tion, or defect either of our intention, or any other what soever; bat shall always be valid and in force, and shall take etiont in all particulars, and be inviolably observed, all general or spr , cial enactments notwithstanding, whether apostolic, or issued in synodal, provincial, and universal councils; notwithstanding, also, all rights and privileges of the ancient sees of England, and of the missions, and of the apostolic vicariates subsequently there established, and of nil churches whatsoever, and pious placer, whether established by oath or by apostolic confirmation, or by any other security whatsoever; not withstanding, lastly, all other things to the contrary whatsoever." He waked lion. Gentlemen what was the meaning of those w irda if they were not directed against the Established Church of this country? Mr. MOORE wished to call th , , attention of the lion. and Learned Member tor Youghal (Mr. Anstey) to a p ass a g e from a book purporting to have been written by him. That ITOn. and Lesrned Gentleman's speeches consisted of a series of virulent attacks upon what he considered the ultramontane spirit of the Roman Ca tholics in this country and of the Court of home. In the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's book, which was dedi cated to Charles, Bishop of Pella, and vicar apostolic of the western district, he found a passage in which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman spoke of ridiculous threats having been lately made by a small Parliamentary fac tion, not without some support from Roman Catholics, to revive the stupid and unmeaning sayings of other days against sincere Catholics, whom they termed ultramon tame Catholics, but whom his Lordship and his brethren in the episcopate would estimate at their true and proper value. _ Mr. ANSTEY said that the book from which the Hon. Gentleman had just quoted contained the enuncia tion of the grounds upon which, from the first, ho and those who acted with him had opposed themselves to the attempt to set up in this country a little Popedom. He had never attacked the Papal rescript on the ground of its being an ultramontane document. All the mischief that flowed from the interference with the rights of the laity, came not from the Pope but from those councillors about him, who endeavoured to sot up a bastard episco pacy in this country. Under this rescript there was no protection for the laity or inferior clergy, who were placed at the disposal of Cardinal Wiseman and their bishops, under whose tyranny they had suffered so much. Mr. MOORE said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman made his conduct perfectly clear by his explanation. With respect to the Bill they had been proceeding hitherto, not without discussion certainly, but without deliberation; they had not been a deliberative assembly in any sense, as far as respected the Bill; they were speaking as from a hustings with reference to their own election.—(oh, oh, and uproar.) He moved that the Chairman report progress. Lord J. RUSSELL must say the House had listened with remarkable attention. Had the discussion been confined to the merits of the amendment—to the general merits of the ctiuse, or to the general merits even of the Bill, nothing could be more remarkable than the patience exhibited by the House; but, considering that Hon. Gentlemen talked upon various other ques tions besides that they were discussing, the patience of the House had been extraordinary. He could not re gard the motion of the Hon. Gentleman as reasonable, and he should not therefore agree to tho motion. Mr. M. GIBSON thought he had a right to complain, as the question h e h a d asked had not been answered from the Treasury bench. He had asked it solely for the purpose of information. He understood it had been stated by the law officers of the Crown that the par- The see_ titular bull or brief mentioned in the clause was un- For the motto. lawful, because all bulls were unlawful. His question .Against it... ... then was this:—They admitted that all bulls were Majority unlawful, and inasmuch as a bishop ordained a The Committee ad priest, because he was a bishop, without reference to his clause title, whether territorial or otherwise, but by virtue of the bull constituting him a bishop, he wanted to know — was the ordination a misdemeanor, because it had taken place in virtue of an unlawful instrument;—and could any person take proceedings by indictment for that mis demeanour against the bishop who ordained the priest in virtue of his being a bishop? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the question was a somewhat complicated one. It proceeded on the as sumption that all bulls were unlawful, and it might be that they were so under the Act of Elizabeth. But the Bill before the House did not declare all bulls illegal and void; it was confined to bulls and rescripts creating dio ceses with territorial titles. It was not at all necessary for the purposes of this Bill to consider whether bulls and rescripts generally were illegal or not; or whether the use of them under the Act of Elizabeth amounted to a misdemeanour or not. They were dealing with that particular Bill, which did not refer to bulls generally. The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said that the clause declared all authority conferred under a brief was illegal; consequently, any act of a bishop appointed under a brief constituted a misdemeanour, and therefore the putting of the clause in force was incompatible with their declaration of not wishing to interfere with the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion. The CHAIRMAN inquired if the lion. Member (Mr. Moore) meant to withdraw his amendment? Mr. MOORE said he did not intend to withdraw it. He merely wished, iu deference to public opinion, which he believed by no means approved of the reckless and unscrupulous manner in which this Bill had been carried through the House, to read two or three hues in the leading article of the Times of that morning, in which he found these words I; has become more and more manifest that th lawyers do nut understand the law, and that there is some danger, amid blunders, concessions, and all sorts of crooked and tortuous policy, that the House may succeed in creating a monster whose future action shall be something quits different from what was foreseen, intended, or desired." " The point would have been fairly raised had the proposition to take the preamble first been acceded to, and as till it be settled no legislation can be safe, we sincerely trust that it will be attended to before the first clause be passed into a law. Till something can be done towards arriving at an accurate knowledge of the present state of the law, it is in vain to hope for satisfac tory legislation. The Bill was read a second time without an agreement in principle, it is now passing through Committee without either agreement or knowledge of the law, and the success or failure of its provisions seems entrusted, in the abeyance of diligence and default of acumen, to blind chance and fortuitous combinetions." That ho believed to be a true represen tation of public opinion, condemning the conduct of that House in pressing clause after clause, and superseding amendment after amendment.—(hear.) The Committee divided, when there appeared— For the proviso ... ••• ••• 59 Against it ... ••• ... 344 Majority --285 Mr. J. O'CONNELL said if the Ministry were sin cere in their professions of not wishing to interfere with the purely spiritual acts of the Romen Catholic bishops, let them introduce some form of words that would dis tinctly declare such an intention. Sir G. GREY said there could be no interference with purely spiritual functions by the Bill. It would be incon sistent, therefore, to introduce any such proviso in the measure. The question was then put that the clause stand part of the Bill. Me. SADLEIR rote to move a proviso to the end of the clause. He was still ignorant of the legal effect of the Bill. The Noble Lord had altogether avoided touching the legal questions raised by the Hon. and Learned Member for Athlone. The Noble Lord know well that it was impossible for the Catholics of Ireland to have a Church without a hierarchy; and there could be no hierarchy without a bull or bulls from the Pope. The Attorney-General said that certain bulls were un lawful; which were those that were lawful?—for some such there should be. He (Hr. Sadleir) participated with many persons in the most serious apprehensions of disastrous consequences in Ireland if the Bill was passed. It was all very well to say that it was declaratory of the law; but the Attorney-General should state explicitly which bulls were not illegal. There had been much quibbling that evening about the Charitable Bequests Bill; and to test the sincerity of the Government in re spect of the position of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland—especially of the Roman Catholic clergy of the second order—he proposed a proviso to the effect that nothing in the Act should be construed to affect any archbishop or bishop of the Roman Catholic Church officiating and exercising the powers and authorities of such offices, in the same manner and under the same conditions in regard to discipline, as before the 29th September, 1850. Lord J. RUSSELL could not see any advantage in entering again into the argument. It bad been already replied to by his Right lion. Friend, and no more could be said about it. Mr. OSWALD said it was important to know what the law was in Scotland previous to the 29th of Septem ber, 1850, before the clause was adopted. There was a statute known in Scotland, as of the year 1567, called the Act Abolishing Popery.—(Leughter.) n w re i c ci t read the Act.—(Laughter.) It enacte d that . subject of the King should entertain connexion wi no th Rome, under pain of banishment, confiscation, or death. The purchasers of rights, finders of finance, &c., should suffer the same; and no bishop should thereafter derive title or authority from Rome, or if h e did, th at it should be illegal and invalid. If that wa s the law of Scotland, was thre any use in passing thi s Bill? In 1700 there was an Act passed ratifying all the 44, statutes further against Popery ; and the Act 33d Ge or g e llt c • ratified the penalties imposed by the Act of 1700, though it did not specifically refer to the statute of 156; ' Under those circumstances it was very inalerial that the Com - mittee should .Imow whet had hitherto been the law in Scutland ofeJn thst subject, and w fa i r the position of Romau Catlielico would be affected by cult measure. The Earl of Ale.o N DEL end SU RREY said he inele r stood that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the E h RTI , SEM - EN - T - .1 ll(xLe Department bad stated that that chance wculd not ' f la Cancerouss Wounds, and old affect spiritual authority or jurisdiction. But he (the Earl Sores forlziils tAsae ('urn of S • ero th u , the son of Mr. James Avery, of of Arundel and Surrey) very much doubted the noun- Ram - ..e was severe,aa3t; - Holloway's Ointment any racy of that view of the case, and he wished to know ,eds v reme diesed w ound swere fir from n o r them. t tried,ree e wa L y een O th n e an m ent and whether the Right Hen. Gentleman still adhered to it? or four cy ; ears, and during that period h l.i t t c h ye s r c m r b ( a: f n i u y , l but without the leastbenefi t t e w d Mr. TRI:LA WNY s aid he wished to ask the Hon. In this deplorable state Jr. J os eph (: p l ergea ;s nt , j e . iemist, of remedy for bad complaint in eans of and Learned Gentleman the Attorney-General whether Ramsey, recommended him te d. under that clause a distfected clergyman of the Roman proceed against ►his bishop Catholic Church might not Pills. effectuallyae d these carin invaluable ü b a o b y l eo of his medicines have efficacious n a g v o They are an a very for a misdemeanour, by . producing the very documeats toand rheumatism.—Sold by all which he owed his ordination ? leg brief s, o s i p d a c c o e re o s f , g t i o rn u c t: Druggist The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he "d a ! an d at Professor Holloway s Establishment, t . :44, S trand London. re ady answered that question. li e h a d , t h en , only to Lad ' repeat, that, under the first clause of th e But, Letters from Rouen sta ci t e e s t e h:l se t a, thk ana m 4 uac urnig a fa li rth f er t dc . line no 'wish - - coutinUedesiremely weatiour could 9 . 04 4.ti11it it merely tvalidity "" eres " -- bl • 1-) • 4 the WAS nnttGett 4ve6e Against it ... 59 Majority against theadjournment... —4O The House then went into Committee. The preamble was understood to have been propose]. On the proposition of some of the clauses, Colonel SIBTHORP moved that the Chairman should report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. ELLICE said it was desirable that they should proceed then with the measure. Mr. BANKES said the principle involved in the clause before them ought at least to receive one fair discussion in that House, which could not take place at that hour —half-past one o'clock.—(Hear.) Colonel SIBTHORP announced his intention of per severing with his motion. The Committee; then divided, when there appeared-- For the motion ... Against it... 50 Majority ... ••• ... —35 The Committee were then proceeding to pass the clause, when Mr. BANKES moved the omission of the word " salaries." The Committee again divided, when there appeared— Ayes .. . . ' - Noes ... 43 Majority against the motion On the re-admission of strangers, An HoN. MEMBER moved that th© Chairman should then report progress. Ayes ... Noes ... Majority against the motion ... —29 Mr. ELLICE deprecated the system of obstruction adop:ed by a small minority upon a question on which the House had already decided. Mr. BANKES denied that a decision had been arrived at on the subject. He thought the Hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton),,who had so often carried a peremptory adjournment of the House at a late hour, was not acting in accordance with his principles in not supporting his present suggestions. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro tested against the attack made on the Hon. Member for Salford, who had been always anxious to promote public business, and not to obstruct it; and his conduct that night was founded on the same principle. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said English Members had that night tarnished an example which showed that the character for a factions obstruction of public business could not be entirely monopolised by his countrymen.— (Hear, hear.) To the Noble Lord the Member for South Lincoln, the Hon. Member for Dorset, and the Hon. and Gallant Colonel near him, they were indebted for such an exemplification as their proceedings that night furnished. Indeed it would be difficult to pro nounce which of the two latter Hon. Members had most distinguished himself on the occasion. " Non nostrum inter vos tantas componere lites: Et vitola to dignw, et hic."—(Laughter.) Colonel SIBTHOR1 ) said he did not regret the course which he had taken on that occasion. Mr, LABOUCHERE said he would advise his Hon. Friend, after th© system of divisions that was going on, to consent to the Chairman reporting progress. Mr. AGLIONBY said he felt bound to take a division on the question. Mr. BROTHERTON having said a few words in de fence cf the course he had pursued, Mr. BANKES reminded the lion. Member that be had voted with him at the beginning of the session that no money vote should be taken after twelve o'clock. It was now two o'clock. The Committee then divided twice. For the Chairman leaving the chair: — Ayes ... Noes... ... -25 ... 15 ... 44 ..• 42 ..• ••• ••• ••• ••• -27 Majority ... For reporting progress: — Ayes ... ••• Noes •- Majority ... ••• On the gallery being opened, Mr. ELLICE said if the Hon. Gentleman would con sent to his proposal. he would agreo not to take any future star of the Bill on any night alter twelve o'clock. Mr. BANKES having acceded to the suggestion, The CHAIRMAN reported progress, the House re sumed, and then Adjourntzd at a Quarter-past Two. . . 42 Mr. CHRISTOPHER paired, in favour cf the Eeelesias ical Titles Bill, with THE O'GORMAN MAHON against. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. From the Votes and Proceedings of the Howe of Commons.) MONDAY, MAY 26. ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL. (IN THE COMMITTEE.) Clause 1 :—Another Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 24, to leave out the words " unlawful and :"—Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause." The Committee divided : MAJORITY—AYES, 179. MINORITY—NOES, 43. Arundel, Earl of Keating, Robert rower, Drolas . Barron, Sir 11. Keogh, William Power' Nich Blake, M. J. Lawless, Cecil Reynolds, Jonh Burke, Sir Thomas Magan, W. M. Roche, E. B. Castlereagh, Vise. Maher, N. S a dleir. John S c ully,Francis Clements, C. S. Meagher, Thomas S o mers, J. P. Colebrooke, Sir T. Molliell, William Sullivan, Michael Corbally, M. . L. Moore, G. 11, Devereux, J. T. Murphy, I. S . Talbot, J. H. David Fertescue, Chichester O'Brien , J . Urquhart, Gladstone, W. E. O'Brien , Sir Thnothy 'Viral], c. B. Goold, Wyndham O'Connor, Feargus Grace, 0. D. J. O ' F'errall, More TELLERS. Graham, Slo g . 011.therty, Anthony M'Cullagh, W. T. Higgins, Geore Oswald, Alexander Grattan, Ileury Hutchins, E. J. Feel, Frederick -----1.... Another Amendment proposed , to add a t the end of the Clatsethe f o ll o wing Proviso: —" Provided that nothing in this Act contained shall be construed to affect any Arch bishop or Bishop, or other person in Holy Orders of the Church of Rome, officiating in any District, or having pastoral superintendence of any congregation of persons professin,,,, the Roman Catholic Religion, according to th e usages and discipline of the Church of Rome, in the United Kingdom, as they existed previous to the 29th day of Sep. tember. 1850." Question put , " That the Proviso b e the re added." The Committee divided : MINORITY-AYES, 47. Anstey, T. C. Hope, Alexander O'Flaherty, Anthony Arundel, Earl of Howard, Sir R. Pinney, William Blake. Martin J. Keating, Robert Power, Dr. 131cwitt, Reginald Keogh, William rower, Nicholas Clements, Charles Lawless, Cecil Reynolds, John Corbally, M. E. M`Cullagh, W. T. Seholefleld, W. Devereux, J. T. Magan, W. H. Scully, Francis Fagan, James Maher N. smy - t he, George Fortescue, Chichester Meagher, Thomas Talbot, J. 11. . Fox, R. M. liallon,O'Gorman Tenison, Edward K. Gibson, T. M. Monsen, William Trelawny, J. S. Goold, Wnydham Moore, G. H. Wegg-Prosser, F. Grace, O. 1). Murphy, F. S. 'Young, Sir John Grattan, lie.nry - Nugent, Sir Percy Greene, John O'Brien, John TELLIES. Biggins, G. G. O'Brien, Sir T. Roche, E. 13• Saillelr, Joh n Flohhouse, T, IL O'C onne ll, John MAAORIn-NIOES, 278._ MAY 27, 1851. of any act done under the assumption of a ten itorial tido, and would inflict no penalties whatever. Tee Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said he be lieved that sev.sr,?.l high legal authorities differed from the Hon. and Lea"mod Gentleman upon that point.. Mr. BLEWITT wished to know how the Attorney- General would find the brief or rescript against which he would proceed under that clause? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he had already answered that question; end he should for the future decline to answer any question a second time, unless it were pat to him professionally.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) No proceeding could be founded by the Attor ney-General upon that first clause. The whole of his functions with regard to that Bill would be founded on the second clause. The Committee then divided, and the numbers 'were — For Mr. Sadleir's proviso ... 57 Against it ... ... 27S Majority agalnst the proviso... --221 Mr. KEOGH said, es the Attorney-General had stated no indictment would iie under this clause, be would move that no criminal proceedings be Well], cr indictment preferred. uuder or in virtue of this clause. The CHAIRMAN asked if the Hon. and Learned Member intended to move the proviso now ? Mr. KEOGH said be would give notice of the proviso. The CHAIRLIAN said it was not competent for the Hon. and Learned Member to do so. Mr. KEOGH would then propose the proviso at once. Mr. REYNOLDS moved that the Chairman report progres:. The question being put, Lord J. RUSSELL said he would not divide on the question. It II as now quite clear that I-lon. Members had been making the same motion over and over again, that they had gone into the lobby with small minori ties, and that they had afterwards made the same mo tion in other word; and in other shapes, which hod been previously rejected. It was sufficiently obvious that was a course against all notions of proceeding in Committee; he should, therefore, agree to postpone further proceed ings that night, to give Hon. Members time to reflect on their conduct, which he, did not think they would be in clined to repeat again, when they saw that public opinion must condemn them.—(Cheers.) Mr. REYNOLDS rose, but was met at every word by a volley of " Oh's," which at last silenced the Hon. Member. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and asked leave to sit again, we understood, on Thursday. On ST. AL'S motionAL B A f N o r ' go ß i n R g I i ß n E t oRIrC Committee, l M SSION. Mr. BANKES objected at that late hour to go on with the measure, and would move that the House do ad journ. Mr. J. ELLICE, jun., had said the clause he wished to add was a mere matter of form, but necessary to autho rise certain expenses that must be incurred. Mr. BANKES must persist in his motion, as by his mode he proposed to spare public money. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said some expense must be incurred let the inquiry be con ducted in any way whatever. The House divided, when there appeared— For the amendment ... ... 19 I ROYAL THAMES YACHT CLUI3. As a seasonable relief to the sports of the turf the in. terval between the great meetings of Epsom and Ascot was appropriately chosen for the first series of matches amongst yachts of this distinguished club, which ca me off yesterday. The weather was most propitious, and the assemblage proportionate to the interest which races of this club ordinarily excite. The Ruby had been chartered by the Royal Thames Yacht Club for the con veya nen of members and their friends, and amongst the company present we observed the Marquis of Stafford, Lord and Lady A. Paget, the Marquis of Couyngham, Lord Seahsm, Lady Repton, L or d L on d es b oroug h , Captain s Shertahaff and Lisiansky, of the Imperial Rua sian army; Admiral' Sir A. Greene, the Hon. J. For tescue, Sir J. R. Carnac, Bart., and many others of con siderable position in society, the party in all amounting to nearly 400. The Gemini, Dryad, Waterman 12 (steuriers), with highly respectable parties on board, besides a treat number of gentlemen's yachts, also ac' companied the race. The Following were found at their stations at Erith, the ccurse selected being thence back:— to the Nero Light and FIRST CLASS —Ex d . Mosquito, 50 tons, Landonc,6Leorindl3 e 0 d, T eE o s :V s. ; ough. Heroine, :35 tons: Cowes, R. Bell Tartar, 36 oCowes, W. H. Dawes, Esq. Cynthia, 50 tonslA-a:don, John Wic ri k SECOND CLA SS — Exceeding 15 Tons Esq. exceeding and not 30 Tons. Phantom, 21 tons, London, Samuel Lane, Esq Whisper. 19 tons, London, Thos. Ereleigh, Secret, 23 tons, Cowes, R. Bell, jun., Esq. THIRD CLASS-10 Tons and not exceeding 15. Frolic, 12 tons. London, Alfred Cox, Esq. Sea Nymph, 10 tons, South'ton, Chas. W heeler, Esq Mezwpa, 12 tons, South'ton, Chas. Bromley, Esq. Half-minute time per ton for differe nce of tonnage in each clasp. The prizes for competition were three pieces of plate of very beautiful workmanship, having been expressly designed and executed for the occasion. The first of these, value 100 guineas, was executed by Messrs. Hunt and Roskell, for the first-class yachts; the second by Messrs. Smith and Nicholson, for the middle class; a n d the third by Mr. Widowson, for the small craft. The subjects of the whole had been most appropriately chosen ' and reflected much credit upon the respective firms from which they had emanated. Upon reaching Blackwell there was every sympton of the continuance of a fine whole sail breeze from the northward, and many were the speculations as to the probable results of the day's sport. The Musquito, a most beautiful boat at anything in which space and power in the finest points of sailing is to be illustrated, was freely b ac k ed at even. Next to her stood the Cyn thia, her opponent in nanny a gallant race, determined with !ruled results. The general opinion appeared to be that, while the wind continued to blow stiffly, it was the Musquito's victory, in support of which view 3 to I was laid in one or two instances against the Cynthia ; butthat if it fell off, the Cynthia:might be found more than a match for her. The Tartar and Heroine were, how ever, craft of such established repute as to render the race, with the allowance of time to which they were entitled, of a very interesting character, the Heroine, perhaps, having won more cups in various races, espe. cially to the westward, than any vessel afloat. The Tartar was also considered good in a stiff breeze, but, notwithstanding the excellent character with whi ch the two latter entered upon yesterday's contest, they were not by the cognoscenti deemed good enough to be backed with much chance of success against either the formid able and beautiful Musquito and Cynthia, the former of whom has been more successful than her opponent in the river. Of the second class the Secret appeared to be the first in demand, and in the third the Frolic and Mauna divided the interest. Everything being in readiness, the commodore, Lord Alfred Paget, took his station on the paddle-box of the Ruby, and at 1 lb. 32 min. 53 sec. the signal was fired for starting. The boats all canted round at the same moment, with one or two exceptions, and the accustomed alacrity was displayed in stretching every stitch of canvas they could conveniently carry, the wind being so favourable that they could lie down every reach, with one or two excep tions, when they had to make a board all the way down. The Frolic first got her sails in trim, but she, as well as the Musquito, was delayed by not letting go her spring quite in time enough; indeed the latter might be con sidered the sternmost, although everything was set. With her usual expertness, the Cynthia's jib was for an instant clewed up, but she soon got to work. The three least boats opposite, and a trifle below the others an the station, went beautifully away side by side. Of the second class the Secret had a slight lead, but there was a very trifling difference amongst that class. Amongst the great yachts the Tartar took a decided and good lead, followed closely by boats of every class but the Musquito. The latter, however, soon began to show the stuff she was made of, and gradually overhauled the various boats until she acquired a most prominent position; during which time the Cynthia went to windward of the Phantom and reached into the second place at Purfleet, the Tartar being still first, the Whisper third, and the Musquito putting in an appearance as a good fourth. Shortly after passing Greenhithe the latter exchanged places with the Whisper, and also passed the Cynthia. There was some pretty work in the Lower Hope, a board becoming necessary, and the wind having lightened, the Cynthia took down with her a nice breeze, which wafted her beautiful form into the leading place, a position she did not, however, long enjoy. The Musquito, which had previously to this covered the Tartar and winded her, went out from under the Cynthia's lee and drew ahead again, retaining it, and exhibiting herself first at the Nero Light, which was rounded in the following ordor: h. min. sec. Musquito ... 2 16 1 C ynth i a , 2 19 58 Tartar ... 2 22 12 Heroine ... 2 23 20 Whisper ... 2 26 22 Secret 2 33 15 Phantom ... 2 36 50 ..Nlc.z?ppa ••• ••• 2 49 58 Frolic ••• 2 53 20 Sra Nymph 25 Had the wind continued as steady as in the mornin g the journey up would have been almost as fair and repid as that in the earlier portion of the race; but a change " came o'er the tenor of the scene." After a eight shower the wind became variable and light, with .s ens e sional calms, which had the effect of changing the pros pect of things. The Mosquito fell off as the Wild de clined, and the Heroine having passed, the Tartar began to gain prodigiously upon the leading boats, but again fell back; the Mezlipe, on her part playing a similar game, and really exhibiting a most beautiful pace during the prevalence of light airs. The zephyrs were courted most assiduously by the captains of the re spective yachts, and all that nautical skill could achieve was developed to retain or improve the position of the craft. Off the Bligh beacon the Mosquito was leading _hest by a trifle, th e Cy nt hi a second , tne H e roine third, Tar tar fourth, Whisper filth then the Secret, Mazeppa, and Phantom. In Sea Reach the Mazeppa cr e p t u p to the d Whisper, after having passed the other two , w hich ha - been between them at the turning point, and went by the excitement of her in gallant style. Soon after this a change of the most the race materially increased, and important character occurre d, w h en the two leading live or six miles of home, besides other matters whic h yachts had arrived within mater ially altered the resultof the day's sport. Gravesend the struggle Frombe tween the Mosquito an d Cynthia, as far as the weather would permit, eeas o f the most animated character. tried to pass her to lees in the Cynthia Again and again unable, and the Musquito on each occa sion stole away fr om ward, but was her; but on entering St. Clement'e • • the Cynthia bringing with her a nice capful of air, lulled Mosquito, the , windward of the to of being becalmed at the moment , having no pow er to resist t h e m ovement, and once having got th e weather gauge o f her adversary, when the wind cam e , which it did in two or three minutes afterwards, the C ynthia went in advance and retained it. The boats came in thus : h. mi n . sec . Cynthia (the winner) .„ 7 27 48 Mosquito ... ▪ 7 :.!1 18 Heroine ... • 7 51 29 Tartar 7 55 20 Mazeppa(winuer of 2I class prize) 8 14 30 Secret ... 8 32 40 Phantom 8 32 50 • ••• ••• Whisper (winner of 3d class prize) 8 33 30 The Mazeppa, by beating the whole of the second class, and taking that prize, left the one of third villae for the second class, which the Whisper became entitled to by the bias allowed her. The prizse were d u l y presente d by the comm ander in the usu a l manner, and the compan y then returned to town. al.Geedes, Cooke, The attention of Messrs. Morgan, the highestand Nichol as , s t ewar d s o f the club, deservesthe Ruby. commendation, as do the bands on board _ er as also the Royal Artillery betide, f o r their skilful p formances. ISLE OF WIGHT ELECTION. (FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.) CLOSE OF THE FIRST DAY'S , FULL. MAY 27.—The g reatest excitement Liu prevailed during the day at the three polling places. At Newport blr. Dawes polled 259 ... IT ....mond 233 Ryde 0 , 145 ... " 95 Cowes ft 74 ... -- tt 123 478 451 • grit y for the Free trade candidate ... 27. Mi A t twelro o'clock Hamond had poll e d 51 a t Cowes, that neighbourhood for Ha mond, m aking him 112 to Dawe s ' 56. I n the next three hours all the exertions of th e T or i es cou ld b r i ng only 11 and Dawes Yarmouth and 48, when the Sol ent steamer b roug h t 56 i men to the poll, while the Liberals polled 18. There aro 1,167 registered electors, of whom 929 have polled; tbt-re remains only 2 3 8, of whom the d ea d, absent' and neutral are by far the most numerous. B r ibery and intimilation will d o i t , wil l- w ith the remainder to- A n ~.-. wfu I:lght. t ' ill " Ituve every reason to believe that the Libtral candidate will be returned. , co et 1Z le. from ;mr (fir. Cole. over-ez3itemcnt, of the Tory solie' — ' . __...------__ lly sudden death took px• F. T El— LA TE SUICIDE Or Mt. J. Po Es. --The Limetick Chronicle eays-4, T h e late much-regretted Mr_ John Power, of Gurteen, has left a fine property of 9,000/. a year, of which 3,0001. a year is out of settlement, and which will pay his engagements. It is now ascertai citor' ne s let d th ter an at the cause of suicide was th e receipt of a soli nouucir,g prompt proceedings against him as security for 10,000/. for a receiver, however, did not exceed 2,000/. He insured his life for 5,0091, which he assigned s li e lr tti . 6m P e o n w t :4r . s ll4 aca ha i;b i l: ft widow se whose debts, for a valuable consideration some years ago to a bank, and which will be paid months.the Royal Exchange Insurance Corn- L. c h Pa kil a: Y d l 4. l l 7 l . i3- aT eeaer'faairiage • red— any ttor- Gen ed to