The Sun. — London, England, 1850-07-31 00:00:00

MAYO ELECTION. The fullowing (by electric telegraph), which was fur nished us by Messrs. Smith and Sons, Eden-quay, Dub lin, appeared in our Fourth Edition last night:— DUBLIN, TUESDAY MORNING. The returns of Saturday give the close of the poll. Not a single voter polled yesterday on either side. Mr. Butt returned to Dublin this morning. A petition Will be presented against Higgins's return. TURKEY AND GREECE. ITALY. The Council-General of Health at Genoa has decided that all arri va l s f rom t h e R egency of Tu nis, Malta, and Algeria, where the cho lera at present exists, shall be henceforward subjected in the Sardinian States to a qua rantine of twelve instead of seven days, but without the riec•ssity of landing or purifying goods at the lazarettoes. Also, that all arrivals from Cuba, now lalrbering under the epidemy of the yellow fever, shall be subjected to a fortnight's quarantine, besides land ing goods at the lszarettoes, where they are to be subjected to purification for the space of 21 days. The Concordia of Turin quotes a letter from Flo trice of the2oth stating that the strangest rumours are uarent about the band of 11Passatore, who still infests cork' the Tuscan and Papal Romagna, notwithstand ing the exertions of the Austrian troops. Engage ments are said to have taken place with his men in the- vicinity of Cortona, in which the Austrians were worsted. They also say that II Passature has two pieces of 'cannon, that he has divided his band into thr& bodies, giving each a commander, and that ho is well provided with arms and money. MARKET ENTELLIGENCE. • (From the. London New Price Current, duly 30.) Suottn.—To. ay there was more desire evinced to eparote in better sorts of grocery and refining West India Sugar, whilst a fair business was transacted, and in several cases the rates obtained are . 6cl per cwt. above those of Friday. In inferior and brown que4tius only limited purchases were made, still bolder, were firm, and would not sell hut at full term:. At auction 150 hi-al:4 and 5 fi ,, ree3 Barbadees were all sold; good and sorts at stiffer rat..-a, and inferior at full, terms; fine yellorf went at 404 to 423, goad 333 6tl to 393,6 d, low to reid.flieg 363 GI to 383, one lot crystalizA yellow 4ls 6d per ews. The total purchases amounted to 433 blids and tierces; the market a!so closes with a firm aspect. .11,1:Ffis ED.—To-day the Refined Sugar minket presented a qiiiet aspect, end prices are not so firm; there are 30.11,rs , of frown grocery lumps at 49a 6 1. Crash,.; Sugar was in fair r , quo, - tt, at 273 to 281 6.1 per cwt. Of Dutch Sitgar Candy 140 boxes brown at auction were withdrawn. - MAURITIUS.—This- afternoon there was an improved demand for Mauritius Sugar,. and the public sates of 6,176-bags wens at full rate}, end a small advance was realised for grocery sortz; low end mid grey went at 333 to 331 6i, better s , r t 3 36s to 33._ good to fine yellow 37s to 391- 61 mid and good nun 35s 61 to 36i 6J, low 34z.t0 35+. "rood and Gee brown 323 61 to 33s 6d. atsr INDIA.—This afternoon a fair business was concluded priratvly in Bengal Sugar at former rat-s. Ool.' 805 bags were offorecint auction, and sold at 32s 6d to 43s 61 for low and mid soft yellow, hem; full terms ; but white De ar e , realised 39, 6,1 to .41s tor good al.d flog, and dsmp 3936.1 to 403 , --:tilests'are rather higher preotes. Fonk - aG - .—Tc.-Jay former• rates were sustained for Forei;.7l Sa;;sr, brit atm_ lasssissaaa conolnde4l by privy° treaty wai of m:Ament, and none tiA.3offereil at pub lic salt , . • 3TOLASSES.--In West India sales are upon a larger scale, but at previons low rate=. Of Ss. Vincents 200 puns were sold at 13s, and small parcels of An tigi:a and Barbadoes at 153 6d to 16s per cwt. For East India prices remain a; I is to 12i per cw:. Cocoa.—An improved demand has been experienced for Foreign, and prices are firm at 273 6d to 28. 6d; theia is Only A limited quantity on offer. 'For Briish Pirrntalon the demand is increasing, and as supplies arc, limited, stiff.r rates are obtained. 'At auction 400 ba9l% Grenada were sold at 393 to 433, and fine at 441 to 464 Per cwt. Comm.—This afternoon there was not much desire to operate is Plantation Ceylon Coffee et the public sales, whieit comprised 267 casks and 177 bags, at which prices declined folly is per cwt, but nearly all sold`; good middling went at 50, middling 524 6d to 545, low middling 503 61 to 51s, fin© flint ordinary 461 td 49s 6d; good aad fine ordinary 443 to 451 6d, low ditto 41s to 435, and pea berry 5616.1 to 573 61. Of Mysore 9 bales and 20 l!alf balea went at 44s t 1'45'3 for gold ordinttry, and at 37s to 43s for dassaged; . and 3 bales Mochst realizad 74s for fine yellow. For Native Ceylon 42s 61 to 43a is the value of good ordinary. TE.a.—nere has again been an xt ,, nsive demand for thq lower deticriations of Congou, and pricey continue to advance. Merchants also evince much firmness, and obtain 110 to ll4d for common, Hid to is for good ordinary, Is Id to is 21 for reediurn sorts. 'ln good and fine Corigou !astern! transactions Lave talc ri place at from Is IL to is Bd, and hoidens are less disposed to realize. Of common and mid grErn consFderabla parcels have brea sold at rather higher rates For belt'r qualities a good demand has been experienced at fully former terms, indeed. Hysnn and Young Ifysen realized anti:lll advance. Of Scented and Pekoe Teas several parcels hate been sold, and prices are rising. MICE.--To day there was less activity in the East India Rice market, and only a limited business was con cluded by private treaty. - At auction 1,162 bags Bengal we're only in part told at barely former rates; fine white went at 1 is 6d, mid 9s 6rl to 10s, ord broken 85 6:1 to 9s; and damaged 8;; 6.1 to 9s per cwt. SPircata.-A. much better demand hay prevailed for black Pepper, and previous rates are well supported. At auction 8,000 bags Sumatra were sold, good clean black 31 to 3* •l, grey ditto 211 to 3.1 per lb. By private treaty a fair business has been concluded, end Malabar realized 3d to 3id. White realized , full terms, and met with more attention At auction 146 bags realizA 6d to 6i - 1 for mid. For brown Nutmegs of infolor and mid quality a reduction of 2d par lb has taken place. At auction 80 pkgs were sokl, fine at 33 31 to 3s sd, good 25 10A to 3s 2d, mid 2s 6d to 2s 9cl, low 2s 31 to 2s sd, out of con dition' Is /id to 2s 2d; 312 bags wild in the shell went at 2d to al, and one lot. good sd: Mace is wanted, and must be quoted Id to 2d higher; 40 pkgs at auction all sold, common at 2s to 2s Id, middling 2s 21 to 2s 3d, and out of condition is 71 to 23. Of Cassia Lignea there is still a scanty supply, and a. fair inquiry has prevailed at 863 to 903 per cwt. • A reduction of /al pet ib has taken place for Bautdaoa Cloves. the supply tiering much increased; still at sritfiiici 'sale 500 cases were chiefly sq.ld at 61il to 6i.1 for mid tsn , l tine. The tra::l 4 3 of Pinang is still Is to ls' 61, fmt little has been done. SALTPETIM.--To-day Saltpetre ras operated in with caution, and of 917 bsgs off-red at public sale, a small pan only found buyers at former rates ; raid and good Calcutta 13!, to 14i per cent refry:l.loa reslised 25s to 264, but fine was taken in at 27s to 285 fcr 4 to 4i per coat refraction. 120CIII,NEAL.—This afternoon a public sale cf 93 bgs of Mexic2n went at abut former rates, bat mostly sold, silvers at 3s 7(1, Wick Os Sd to Os 93. SPiniTs.—For Brandy there is a firm market and a good business has been concluded. Cognac best brscds of the vintage of 1849 reslised 43 63 to 4i Sd, 1848 ditto 4; 7d to 4s 93, 1847 ditto 5i Id to 5s 3,1, and inferior sorts 23 91 to 4s 31 per gallon. A further increase has taken place in deliveries for all purposes. For Geneva the market is dull with sellers of export sorts at Is 6id to Is 7d, acd fine for qoasumption at 2s to 3s. For British made Spirittberr. is no variation, but the market is firm. To day the Rum market presented a firmer aspect, and a fair business was concluded, proof Leewards at is 43 to Is 40; List India Is 3d, and Demerara, of strung qua lity 21 to 26 23. INutoo.— The home and export demand is still good for East India at full former rates, and a small advance is obtained for picked lots, indeed at present rates some parties are not sellers. Spanish is in fair request, and prices are looking up for the lower sorts. Oit.s.—ln pale Seal several purchases have been made and the rates paid are 321 to 321 53, other sorts are yet scarce and realize 301 to 311 per tun. A fair business has been concluded in Sperm ; fine colonial at 83/ to 841, and Headmatter 901 to 921 whilst on the part of holders there is firmness. There are severs' buyers of Southern, and rates rule at 311 los to 34/ for common to fine. Cod Oil is still held ,for 341 103. For Linseed Oil prices are not so firm and rule of 33s to 33s 63 on the spot, and at 32s 6d to 333 per cwt fn. delivery. Rape Seed Oil met with ready purchasers and an advance has taken place, refined selling at 373 to 38s, Brown 36s to 36s 6J, and there, is a further decrease of supply. Palm met with a more active demand and fine realised 18s to 29t p9r cwt. Cocoa Nut is still operated in with eataloe, awl there are sellers of 0,710n_ en Coehiff at 283 to 30:. In O:ive several purchases hale been made and the market is firm; Gallipoli and Spanish at 421 to 43/, other sorts 411 to 41/ 103 per tun. The consumption is extending, and likely so to continue. For auction 130 tons Palm, 400 tons Cocoa Nut, and 60 tans Seat Oil are declared. TALLOW.—There has been rather more disposition to operate in Russian on the spot. but pricei do not irnDrove. Fine yellow Candle is offered at 363 6d to 363 9d, and inferior sorts at 3d to 6d per cwt less. Sales are limited for dalivery in last three months of the year at 373 9d to 383 9d. In home -melted a good trade has been concluded at 35s 6d to 363 nett cash for present delivery. Full terms are oh tained for all sorts of Tallow; at auction 280 casks of Sydney were sold at from 32s 9d to 353 9d for low to fine; and 636 pkgs S azth American at 331 to 35s 9d. The value or P.Y.0., frpe on board, is 33119 s to 341 per ton for this and next month. • There it no present foundation for the report that the Vio-Chanceltor of England will be compelled to retire in• consequence of the effects of his'late Mness. His Honour is'reeoering strenp;tlTwith rapidity', and unless he suffers a relapsl:, it is his intention to r•idtilc duties in November. Jarnesr Wi'!:;ram is suffering 'under a tern porAry depriva tibia ' tit from disorde.';'ol stomach', but I.p'aliio does not yet despair of re ttit 4 iittg:''ltirete4'ttrin the office of third Vice-Chancellor is no doubt at an end, and the Learned Jadge will enjoy a pension. We have received by the Levant mail Constanti nople journals to the 14th, and Athens journals to the 18th inst., both inclusively. The only thing of interest in the former is the confirmation of the news received through Germany of the restoration of tranquillity in Bosnia and Bulgaria. The Greek journals are destitute of news of importance. THE SUN, LONDON, IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, July 30. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool sack at Five o'clock. SMALL TENEMENTS RATING BILL. This Bill was real a second time. GENERAL BOARD OF HEALTH (No. 2) BILL. This Bill was read a second time. TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL. The report on this Bill was brought up. HIGHWAY RATES BILL. The Highway Rates Bill was read a third time and passed. FISHERIES ON THE FRENCH COAST. ARREST OF ENGLISEI FISHERMEN. The Earl of WICKLOW asked the Noble Marquis whether he was aware that several English fishing boats had been lately seized and carried into French ports, on the ground that they had been encroaching on the rights of the French fisheries, and whether any steps had been taken to remedy the grievances of the English fishermen who had been con demned in large fines by the French authorities. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that f)r a long time there had been disputes as to the rights of French and English fishermen. In 1838 a treaty ha.l been en tered into, by which it was agreed that the ocean within the coasts of the respective countries should be con sidered as belonging to those countries. There was an exception to this rule, which was the coast be tween Jersey and France; there a certain line had been drawn. Now it so happened that exactly upon this line a bed of oysters had been discovered ; whether these oysters had had private information of the treaty, and had taken advantage of it, he did not know—(A laugh)—but it was upon this bank that the alleged encroachments had taken place. The temptation to ercreachment was too strung for any fishermen. Several French fishermen had been arrested by the English authorities for encroachments, and had been fined, and several English fishermen had been arrested by the Reach authorities. By the treaty parsons so arrested %ere brought before the magistrates of the respective countries, and the consul was to attend and watch proceedings, and if he thought injustice had be2n done, it was his duty to report the same to his Government. Several English fishermen had been taken into Dieppe ; the consuls had attended and had made no representations to the Foreign-office, and there fore the Government had no reason to believe that in justice had been done in any of these cases. PROVISION FOR THE PRINCE OF WALES. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved that au ad dreis be presented to her Majesty, in answer to her mes sage, assuring her Majesty that the House would adopt mean 4 to secure to his Roysl Highness the Prince of Wales the possession ot Marlborough [louse so soon as he should attain eighteen years of age. The apeessicy for asking this lipicion at presPnt was that Marlborough Hoer e was to be devoted to the exhibition of the pictures left to the nation through the patriotism of the late Mr. Vernor. Lord BROUGHAM seconded the motion, and in so doing pa44ed a high eulogiurn on Mr. Vernon. Lord REDE!a'll ALE thought it would be advisable to fix on Marlb rough Houte ei a residence in'perpetuiry for the fzu,e heirs of the Throne. The motion wa.: then agreed to. _ CANTERBURY SETTLEMENT BILL. This Bill wa.-rParl a third time and passed. FEES OF THE OFFICERS OF THE HOUSE. _ _ . The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved a resoluTi:in to the effect that the House concurs in the suggestions of the Committee rrchimmending the reform of the foes of the oalars of this Florae, and would carry the same into effect.—Agreed to. The Bills on the table were forwarded a stage, and their _Lordship adjourned. 110 USE OF COMMONS, July 30. BARON ROTHSCHILD—ADJOURNED DEBATE. (Continued from cur Afternoon Edition cf yesterday.) The AT FORNEY GENERAL said that he war desirous of expressing as distinctly as he could the view which he had formed upon this subject. He could say that in coming to a conclusion he had en dearoured to disest himself of every persoral feeling. Upon every previous occasion upon which this question hid beeq brought before the House he had voted fur the admission of Jeas into Parliament, and upon a famer occasion he had expressed his opinion upon the propriety of that measure.. At the same time he considered that, on looking at this vestion, ho had two things to consider with respect to tua wishes which he himself might have upon the subject. Ile earnestly wished that Baron Rothschild should be admitted a Member of that House, and that all persons of the !emie persuasion should sit and vote there like wise. But he was bound to discard every feeling of that description—the functions which the Maisel had t pedestal were purely judicial, not quasi-judicial, but purely judicial, and it was de sirable to express this more strongly, because it was impossible not to perceive that very strong personal feel-. lags had been excited as to whether Baron Rothschild could sit in that House.—(llear, hoar.) He con fessed that, on looking at this question it was important to look at the position in which it now stood. The Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon hid moved for a new writ for the city of London, and the 11 , ni. and Learned Member for Oxford had moved as an amendment that the seat was filled. He could not think thus the course which the lion. and Learned Member f Abingdon had taken was tho one best to be pursued, even if his view of the case were correct. He would now refer to w hat took place in the case of Mr. O'Connell. lie was quite ready to admit that there was some difference between the two cases. As it appeared from the journals, Mr. O'Coneell was called upon on Friday and asked if he would take tho oaths, and he stated he was content to take the oaths of aPegiance and abjuration but not the oath of supremacy; ther efore the debate was adjourned, and on' the Monday following he was heard at the bar. Oa' the following day he was caret again to the bar, andeMr. Speaker asked him if he refused to take the oaths, and on his replying that he did refuse, the House came to a resolution that he was not entitled to a seat in the House. But there was some disttnction between that case and the present ; the lion. Member for the city of London had not refused to take the oath of abjuration.— (Cheers.) The House had, however, come to the con clusion that he had not taken the oath in the form prescribed ; and, perhaps, out of respect to the firms of the House, it might be proper to call him again to the table, and ask him if he refused to take 'rho oath in anY other form than that in which he had taken it.— ,(Cries of " No.") If he refused, then the view taken by the Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon might be the most correct bun under the circumstances. But with respect to the real question itself, he confessed he had considerable difficulty in com ing to the conclusion which appeared to him to be the right and proper conclusion, but which be admitted ho had arrived at with considerable pain. If he were sitting as a judge on this case, and had to decide' ac cording to the obligation of the oatb, and was anxious to do justice between the parties, he could not say in his own mind that the Hon. Member for the city of London had taken the oath of abjuration iu the form prescribed by the Act of Parliament.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He confessed he came to that con clusion with very great regret, but still it was his duty to communicate it to the House. (Continued cheering.) He had listened with very great pleasure and interest to the extremely able arguments of his Hon. and LearneciFriend the Member for Oxferd (Mr. Page Wood)—(:Tear)—but though he knew him to be actuated by the sincerest of motives, he regretted that ho had cot produced the same effect on his mind as he had done on , that of his own. and th a t h e (M r . Attorhel-General) was c.b:iged to coma to a different conclusion. He was not able to get over what appeared to him to be the plain and common sense meaning of the Act which im posed the oath. He could not, however, doubt that if the question had beea raised before the affirmation had been made on the oath of abjuration, that it was neces sary that he should affirm that he was a Christian. Mr. Pease would have bad no objection to have made such affirmation.—(Hear, hear.) It was clear that affirmation by Statute was to be taken as equivalent to an oath in the case of Quakers. With respect to the observations that, had been made by his Honourable and Learned Frie.ud ,it,, Member fot Oxford, upon the Sd and 4thWiliiam It, passed subsequent to the case of Mr. Peaie, they apt - eare4-.to him to hale a contrary tendency to that which he contended for, no by that statute Par liament appeared determined to put an end to all doubt, and if such an Act had been passed in the case:of Baron Rothschild, all doubt would have been cured. But then, supposipg it to be clear that Parliament meant in the case of Mr. Pease to put an end to all doubt, the ques tion then would come round, would it be right for Par liament to pass an Act for a similar purpose in the case of the Baron Rothschild. Another statute had been pressed on the attention of the House as the mainstay of the question; he alluded to the declaratory statute of the Ist and 2d of the Queen. Now there was nothing in that statute that required the oath to be Provided a that administered in a particular form, but the Act particularwh f the party ptahrety party y d s t h ak ou en id liable for the the be in the regular way-. consequences ui a s s u m ouc h as if it was taken o. Friend had said that the oath was no oath, or that if it was it was of no use at all. If such was the case the to remove th e statute which , I ; ro e r course would b e statue - book ; b u t if that coursered it f rom the the House would b e , i n _ effect, saying ado p t ed oath was useless, and oug h t to , be disTaln s : l d'at the and that it had not the pow er t o d o except by an with, garliarnent. He admitted wh a t h a d b een stated by Act Hon. and Learned Friend, with respect t o the courts of law and the steps which they take in deciding the mean ing of Acts of Parliament, but he could not say that he thought the rule of courts of law ought always to prevail in that House. It was not at all uncommon for courts of law, virtually to repeal - Acts of Parliament.—(Cheers.) . The, statute of uses and the statute of frauds had been vir tually repealed by them.—(Cheers.) Well now, be had always considered that it was not a wise course for a court justice, of justice to pursue. Courts of how ever, ha-I been much stricter in modern times. At no time was it a wise thing even for a court of justiee to dispense with an Act of Parliament, or to argue itself out ,of it; but it appeared to him to be still more incum bent upon the House to keep Acts of Parliament strictly inviolable, and not to alter or change them in any way withont the sanction of the other branches of the Legis lature. If it did the most dangerous results would f , liow. Observe what was to be done in this case. The House was to strik e out o f the oath t h e words - _ "on the true faith of a Christian," because airon Lionel de Ruthschild did not thiiik them binding , upon hip consoiencii. Well, but was not it just po ss ibl e if toy aAreod to that propoiitiou, thi:t sorn3 other persous might fur the same reason demand that some o i tber part of the oath should be omitted?—(Ceeers.) In voting that the - Baron de Rothschild should be sworn upon the Old Testa- ment he intended to affirm the proposition that the Baron was to -constitute himself the judge, not only of the manner in which the oath should be adminis tered, but also of the words of which the oath itself should consist.—(Hear, bear.) That was a thing which he could not conscientiously vote for, according to the view which ho took of the case; but, said his Honourable and Learned Friend, you changes - the words our Sovereign Lord King George for our Sovereign Lady.' the Queen. Now, really, was that a mode of dealing with the case ? (Loud cheers.) Might they not just as well say that they could change the oath because they did not say A B, but inserted the name of the party sworn?—(Cheers.) LoOking, then, at this case with the greatest attention which he was le to give it, he did say that the House had not the power of dispensing with any portion of the oath. The oath was imposed by an Act of Parliament, and having given the best at tention he could to the Act, the words "on the true faith of a Christian " did appear to be part of the oath, and it was the duty of every Member to take it in full before he could take his seat in the House.—(Cheers.) His Hon. and Learned Friend seemed to be a little sur prised that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government should have expresed his opinion without having heard the arguments. Why, his Honourable and Learned Friend must know that it was his, as well as the Noble Lord's duty, to consider and look into the case well before coming down to the Howe, and no doubt the Noble Lord had done that.— (Hear, hear.) At all events he had considered all the bearings and facts of the case, and he Came to a conclu sion which was liable no doubt to be removed by argument, but he had listened with the 1 greatest attention to the ablest argument he had ever heard in his life from his Hon. and Learned Friend, and ho must confess that it had failed to remove from his mind the difficulty which be felt about altering an Act of Parliament.—(Cheers.) So long as a statute required them to take a particular oath the House could not dispense with any portion of it; he believed then the words " on the true faith of a Christian" ts be part of the oath; and, speaking there in his judicial character, . upon his conscience he did think the Baron Lionel Nathan de Rothichild had not taken the oaths in the form prescribed by the Act of Parliament, or in such a manner as to entitle him to take his seat in that House.—(Cheers.) Mr. •ANSTEY asked why his Hon. and Learned Isr:en-1 the Attorney-General had addressed the House ou this occasion? He would tell him. It was to give some sort of colour to the Noble Lord at the head of toe Government—(Cheers)—some sort of justification for the Noble Lord for his indiscreet and unseasonable speech of yesterday.—(Hoar, hear.) His Hon. and Learned Fnend (the Attorney-General) had reminded the House that this was a judicial question: If that was so, why was the question pre:udged ?--(Hear.) If it was j udicid question, wide was it made a Cabinet question? Why 'was the law officer of the Crown put forward to defend the Primo Minister? Heel his Hon. and Learned Friend (the Attorney-General) ventured to reply to the unanswerable speech of his Hon. and L earnei Friend the Metiber for 0.-Jord ? He had not; he had contented himself with* sic col° sic jeieo reply. The argument of the Hen. and Learned Gentlemen was thi,: —Either the House had power to tam Per with the Acte of Parliament or the oath had expired. Every fresh Parliament Protestant Members were called upon to tyke the oath. It was pot put to him, Cr he Would have claimed his right to he heard at the tar, and have showed that it was an illegal oath.—(Laughter.) Hon. Members might laugh, but he would quote a passage from the statute, which would set the matter at rest for ever. The arguments of his Hon. and Learned Friend opposite had bisen greatly perverted. It was allowed that a man ought to be •sworn according to the form most -bind ing on, his conscience, anti the question wan, did the words "oa the true faith of a Christian " f tun part of the oath which was held 'binding on the conscience in certain cases. He said they did. Whatever opinions-might be formed by lawyers or courts of justice as to the mode or prescribing the oath, they could not shrink from doing their duty and aettng justly to one who, though elected to 'sit in that ifoeee, was about to be deprived cf that privilege by the stirting cf an objection which he thought could not be righteously sustained— “ Fiat justitia, Teat ccelinn.” The Hon. Member concluded by expressing a hope that the question would not be allowed to rest Until Baron R,thschild was permitted to enjoy his right of sitting an d actieg as a Member of the House. Mr. HUME said it would be quite impossible for him to attempt t) enter into the Nal arguments of the case, after the very, masterly- and very able epeech.of his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Oxford; but he wished ' to. observe that one argument had been used which had not been answered by the Honour able Member fir Abingdon (Sir •F, Tbesiger). That Hon. and Learned Member called upon the House to agree to a motion to the effect that the Hon. Member for the city f London had virtually vacated his seat, be cause he had not taken the oats of abjuration in the pre scribed farm ; and he wished to ask him by what statute or by what law he considered the Honourable Member had rendered his seat vacant 7—(lean) Now no one, he apprehended, would doubt that the B.tron ROthschild had taken the Laths of allegiance and supremacy, and having taken those two oaths he (Mr. (Hanle) contended that he could not be expelled. The last oath, the oath of abjuration, was one of pains and penalties, but the Baron would not be sub ject to those pains and penalties unless he had sat and voted. Perhaps it might be better, as the Attorney-General had come into the House, that be should put the question to him. He wished to know from that Learned Gentleman by what law the Hon. Member . for the city of London had vacated his seat; he had taken the oaths of supremacy and alle giance, but it was said he bad not taken the oath of eh juration.—(Hear, hear.) In his (Mr. Hume's) opinion he had.---(Hear.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that it appeared to him that the seat had become vacant, assuming that Baron Rothschild had refused to take the oath of abjuration.—(Hear, hear.) By the 6th of George 111. persons who refused to take the oath of abjuration were • subject, to the same penalties and disabilities, as by the laws and statutes already enacted were provided, and by that statute they referred to the statute of William 111., which direeted that the party re fusing. to take the oath should be unable to sit in Parliament. Mr. BERNAL—What became then of the statute of George 111. ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL considered that the statute of William 111. overrode it. Mr. WOOD assented that the statute of George lIL repealed the statute of William HI. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL could not agree in that opinion. Mr. V. SMITH was not prepared , to assume that Baron Rothschild had refused to • take the oath (Hear, hear,) —yet that was the proposal of the Honorable and Learned Member foi Abingdon, The Hon. and Learned Member then proposed further to issue a new writ for the city of London. He could not assent to the adoption of such a course, when they had the first legal authority in that House disputing upon whether Baron Rothschild wan entitled to his seat or not. He could neither vote for the original motion nor the amendment, end he would thert fore suggest that a Com mittee should be ftppointed to consider what was the state of the law on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) Sir G. GREY fdt a diffienhy in the matter. The terms of the motion of the Honourable and Learned Mtenber for Abingdon were that the ,Baron de Roths child had refused to take the oaths prescribed by lan ; but the Baron de Rothschild did not do that; he merely omitted certain words from one oath, because he did not think them binding upon his conscience. —(Hear, heir.) Now he was prepared to vote against the amendment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Ox ford, declaring that the seat was full, and ho must say that be thought they ought to proceed with great caution and deliberation before they agreed to the motion for the issue of a new writ.—(Hear. hear.) They must look at this as a precedent for all future time, and what would the minut es o f th e H ouse di sc l ose? It would appear that a Member came to the bar—he took the two first oaths prescribed by law; he took the last oath prescribed by law,. with the omission of certain words, stating that he did not refuse to take them, but that he did not use them because they were not binding upon his consci,ence.—(Hear, heir.) Ho thought 'with his Honourable and Learned Friend the Attorney- General. that these words formed part of the oath prescribed by ' law, and the House had not the power to dispense with them; but still they ought to have something more to proceed upon than the statement of the Hon. Member • himself before they prowded to declare the seat vacant. There was another question, however, to be decided. Was the refusal of the Honourable Member final and com plete, and the seat thereby vacant ? F or hi s part he believed the Act of William 111., which ma d e the refills/ to take this oath vacate the seat, was still in force, notwithstanding what had been said to tho con trary by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman the bei for Oxford.—(Hear. hear.) At the same time they were now , acting judicially, and he did think in the present state of conflicting opinion on the law they would be acting unwisely if they now decided that the seat was absolutely vacant without taking more time to look into the point —(Cheers.) Sir F. THESIGER was anxious to proceed with all proper caution and duo deliberation, and undoubtedly when he proposed his resolution in the terms which he had submitted to the House, be thought he was pursuing the course of precedent, because there was no doubt whatever that there were a variety of instances upon which parties had come to the table and refused to take the oaths, and upon that refusal there had been immediately made a motion f or t h e issue of a Now, Baron Rothschild tooktwo ne o w f the ri oaths C writ.—(Cheers) r t s h . e ) table; but on coming to the words in the third, " on the true faith of a Christian," he closed the book and said binding on his conscienceecau (Sir F. The e s . He he considered them not he omitted those words ' b then kissed the book. underkand, when the Baron said he (Hear, hear.) He for the reason which he gav e , loyal to swear to those words. F. Thesiger) was wrong in sup s amounted to a refusal to take a substantial p esi n a g r. ) certainly did not If he (Sir thate omitted these words, words.—(Hear, hear.) was a re fusal that the oath, he wished to know in what mode the Zi Right Hen: Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) proposed that the House should ascertain clearly and distinctly whether it was the intention of Baron Rothschild to take the oaths pre scribed by Act of Parliament or not. . Mr. PAGE WOOD said, en gee part of Baron Roths child, hat without consulting him, he would say, that Barer' Rstbsehill had not the /east hesitation in saying, Olat the omission to !tree those worth should be taken as 4 ,c,...3a: to takr., thea). . i ucortav:d why hi 4 Hun. an d 'Sir .FREDaIiICIi." TIIESIGER ssiLl, :lien if that tre se, lie COl2hi hardlyd ed?old Friend the' Member for . o'sford (Ur: P. Wood) wished to claim what his Hon. and Learned Friend WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 3l, 1850. called a locus penitentice for Baron lothschild on this occasion.—(Laughter.) He (Sir F. Thesiger) had merely risen to make the explanatim which he had given to the House. Sir GEORGE GREY explained tlat Mr. O'Connell distinctly refused to take the oath of stpremacy, and the House resolved that he was not entitled to take his seat without taking that oath. The Spe aktr having informed Mr. O'Connell of the resolution of the House, Mr. O'Connell asked to see the oath, and le said he declined to take it because A contained two prepositions which he believed to be untrue. Mr. ROEBUCK said all he knewfrom the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford was Oa; Baron Rothschild refused to take the words on " the true faith of a Christian." That did not implythat Baron Roths child had refused to take the oath. Mr. Alderman SIDNEY, amidst stouts of " Oh, oh," said if tbis was a judicial question. and if this House was to be the judge of it, it required tut the learning of a lawyer, but 'the sound sense of an individual to form an opinion upon it. After listening to ;his debate for three days he had come to the conelusisn that the question whether the House was to admit Baran Rothschild to take his seat or not was virtually decided ty last night's debate. This was not a party question, b u t it was one i n w hi ch each of them would reel himself called upon to act the part of a magistrate. He entertaited an opinion that the time was gone by when this Rouse could persuade the country that a constituency likt the city of Landon was not able to judge for itself. Ile trusted that the House would not stultify itself bs proclaiming to the world, and to the city of London in particular, that they would not accept the men whom they had chosen, and by requiring them to go through the farce of a third election. Lord JOHN RUSSELL asked the House to come to some decision as to the course of proceedings. If the Hon. Member for Oxford, who represented the Hon. Member for London in that Rouse, thought some delay advisable before proceeding to a division, he should pro pose thet they should adjourn unti six o'clock. Mr. P. WOOD said that as hs understood that. it was the desire of many Hon. Members to speak, he should move that the debate should Adjourn until to night at six. Mr. DISRAELI—As it appeared to be the general feeling of the. House that the question was narrowed to the point whether they should repeal an Act of Par liament or not, perhepsit would he requisite to allow some further time for cons:del - alit:ie. He would remind the Noble Lord that the Irish Franchise Bill stood for to• night. He would propose to adjourn until to-morrow.— (Cries of " No, no, " Divide, divide.") He would propose, then, that they should go on with the Irish Franchise Bill at six o'clock. Mr. P. WOOD said, that having consulted with Hon. Members, he should be pet fectly ready to go on with the division. Mr. B. OSBORNE said that he wished to state how it was that he had not spoken on this question.—(Cries of Ob, oh.") He was ono of those who took a com mon sense vitev of the question, and he did not intend to have his judgment perverted by the quibbles of lawyers or tin equtvoctl conduct of the Prime Minister. What was the course of proceeding by the Government? The Attorney-General moved that Baron Rothschild should be heard at the bar of-the House by counsel, but the Noble Lord (Lord J. Rues-11) got up and toll the House, after the Baron had been pus to great ex pense in retaining counsel, and after he had raise' the expectation cf the electors of the city of London, that it was true he had agreed to hearing the Hon. Member by counsel, but his mind v.aa made up on the question, and that whatever counsel might say be would csll on his supporters and other Honourable Members to vote agestist the admission of the Ho nourable Member.. They were told that this was a judicial question, but they knew very well, from the eoturse of proceeding by the Government, that it was not a judicial question, but had been made by them a party question.—(No, and Hear, hear.) It was no use tempo riling with the question, and ho would tell the House Het did so that it would engage in a conflict with tale eit.r:his of London, out of which it could only comewith diSappointreent and disgrace.—(flear.) lord Jr. RUSSELL rose to explain. His Hon. Friend the Attorney-General stated, on the occasion referred to' by the honourable Meenbtr, that he would follow the precedent in the case of O'Connell, and pro pose that Baron Rothschild should be heard by bihesclf, or by counsel or agent. Then the Learned Gimtlemen the Member for the city of Oxford, said he was authorised by Baron Rothschild to state that he did not wish to be heard by Counsel.--e(Hear, hear.) That having been declared, a debate ensued in which the Honourable, Member f..r Middlesex declared very stroegly his opinion on the whole question.—(Hear)— and such being the case, he considered himself as well entitled as any other Member to state his opinion to the House.—(Cheers.) Ho accordingly did so, observing at the same time that he thought this was a judicial ques tion, but he certainly did not wish to influence any member of the Cabinet, or any other Member of the House in the decision of the question.—(Hear.) Mr..STANFORD rose- amidst lend cries. of "Oh " and other marks of disapprobation; for the purpose of supporting, the adjournment of the debate. He hoped the House would not prejudge the question, and that he would have an opportUnity of considering its whole bearings before he was compelled to record his vote. Strangers were then order to withdraw and the House divided, when there appeared— , For Mr. P. Wood's amendment ... 117 Against it ... 221 Majority ageiast the amendment, 104 On our return ro thb giltery we found ! Lord J. RUSSEtt stating that he did not think the House would be justified, without further authority,lin saying that Baron Rothschild had refused to take the oaths. Ile thought the House ought to have time to deliberate upon the question, whether either an Act of Parliament or the precedent and usages of the House made it neces sary and iucumbent upon them to proceed immediately to issue tho writ. Ho was anxious that the . House should take the utmost time to deliberate upon that point, and he therefore hoped his Hon. and Learned Friend the Mein'eer for Abingdon would not press hie motion now, but either withdraw it or adjourn it to some future day.—(Hear.) Sir I`.' THESIGER was extremely anxious to leans the matter entirely in the hands of the Noble Lord.— (Opposition cheers.) He meant precisely what he said. -- , (Cheers.) It was a question which concerned the pri vileges of the House, and he thought it was peculiarly a matter for the Noble Lord to decide what course they ought to adopt: Of course he was not as well versed in the rules and forms of the. House as the Noble Lord, and being desirous to proceed with due caution, he was anxious to receive the instructions of the Noble Lord— (Cheers)—as to the proper course to be adopted.— (Hear, hear.) Ho bad no desire to hurry this matter on, he was only anxious, inasmuch as they were now in a position which placed them in a difficulty as to the proper mode of proceeding, that there- should be every opportunity afforded the Hoeise to consider the question ; and he could, of Coarse, have no objection to adopt the sugges tion of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.) With respect to the question as to the refusal of Baron Rothschild to take the oath, if it was required. by the House that they should have more distinct information on the subject, be wan ready to accede to it, b ecause his object was to establish a prteadeat for the future con udturnetostoifmptohretanlcloouthseah; wt yo theh lynde jo urnals du i r t n v: i a s s , shtonaelrdefboere,faollf and complete upon the subject.—(Cheers.) , Mr. H UM.E said, the Hon. and Learned Member t ot b e . d emonstration h t H e on li h o w a n o r o i dfuer applause deal Learned and n tih e a d ee its favour of his conduct, Learned Member leave everything in the hands of the division v d i ic)na Learned a d negativeGen tl Gentleman was mo tion.—(Hear, a 8 seamedN b wonderl e at' Lord turtph a rai t ts e? ti d rs aW t t , Member step forward and interfere with the Noble Lord? House quite inconsistent with his practice, and be hoped the o p f roc th e g ed li t u o n a . e s peech w ould hear.) Mr. V. mall said this was a question for the House of Commons, and not for the Ministers to decide. He was surprised at the Hon. and Learned Gentleman' opposite talking about caution, when he had been so rash as to propose a resolution which th e Rouse could not adopt; nay, it actually stated what was not the fact, for it was untrue that the Baron Lionel de Rothschild had refused to take the oaths.—(Cheers.) If any ad journment took place, be hoped it would be for the pur pose of ultimately having a Committee to consider the law of the subject:-Hear.) _ Sir R. H. INGLIS denied that the resolution of the Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon contained that which was untrue, nor had the Hon. and Learned Member been at all rash and precipitate in his conduct. —(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton' had said that the Hon. Member for the city of London had taken the oath, and if the Right Honourable Gentleman limited himself to the word oath, he was justified in saying so, but the Hon. Member for the city of London had not taken the oath, which was the whole point at issue. The Hon. Gentleman had taken an oath, but not the oath.—. (Cheers.) Supposing the Hon. Member had omitted clause 3,4, or 5 of the oath, would the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton then say that the Baron de Rothschild had taken the oath ?—(Cheers.) There fore, then, he contended that the motion of his Hon. and Learned Friend was not premature, was not at all ill advised,-and affirmed nothing but that which was obli gatory upon every one of them.—(Cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the debate be adjourned to twelve o'clock on Thursday next. His Hon. and. Learned Friend the Attorney-General would then propose such a resolution, or resolutions, as his Host. and Learned Friend and himself (Lord John Rus sell) should have conceived the dignity and the usage of the House required. Sir F. THESIGER seconded the motion. Sir B. HALL said, whatever resolution the Govern ment might propose on Thursday next, he, for one, should insist that the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon should be affirmed or negatived by the House.—(Cheers.) Mr. P. WOOD said, as any resolution the Govern ment might propose on Thursday would be in the shape of an amendment to the motion of the Lion. and Learned Member for Abingdon, he did not see why tho House should not dispose of the motion of the Hon. and Learned Mernb-r for Abingdon. Mr. ROEBUCK reminded the house what they were w g o e in reg b t e o doforethbey i a i d o j u o ., u e r , n u in n f i . ih T a ho on r l e y al d fa o c u t b s t ot w ' a th s is ab c o a u se t the conclusion from those Leo. Mr. HUME thought that if the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) meant to act fairly on this questiou, the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon should be disposed.of or withdrawn. Af,er a few words from M. ANSTEY, I'dr. A( LIO: . :; BY asked the Government if they were o i n g •t b ficorciairt:ihnendun odium t 2 of pry the Fie9e cc::- tag to a decisio n on the !notion ' of the lion. and Learned ember Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that he thought it far better to adjourn the debate until Thursday than to come to any hasty decision on the motion before it. As to any odium he might incur, he did Rot think it would be wise for the First Minister of the Crown to be very sensitive on that point,—(Lsuglater.) He doubted it was part of his fate to incur odium, but he should seek to avoid it as much as possible. The gallery was then cleared, but no division took pl:cf.. On entering we found Sir F. THESIG . EIt expressing his willingnem to with draw his resolution, or to have it negatived ; but the House mu•t understand that it was solely on the ground fiat he might not interfere with the Government reso lution. Sir F. Tile3iger's motion was then put and nega. tired without a division. In ierly to a question from Sir B. BALL, '....___ The - A:TTOTiNEY-GENERAL said that it would not be possible for him to lay his resolution on the table bef )re Thursday. Mr. ANSTEY complained of this delay. Thy debate was then adjourned until Thursday. Mr. DISRAELI suggested that Hon. Members who had notices of motion on the paper should allow the Government to proceed with the Irish Franchise Bill this evening. Lord J. RUSSELL expressed his willingness to com ply with the suggestion. - Mr. P. SCRO - Pb said that he would willingly postpone his motion if it were the wish of the House. The House then adjourned at a quarter after four until hilf-pazt six. The House resumed at Half-past Six, when Colonel DUNNE postponed his motion relative to the growth of tobacco in Ireland. PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS' (IRELAND) BILL. The order of the day being read for considering the Lords' amendments on the Parliamentary Voters (Re lent!) Bill, Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose and proposed, "On consideration of Lords' amendments to Parliamentary Voters, &c. (Ireland) Bill, clause 1, page 2, line 8, to amend Lords' amendments, by inserting the word ' twelve,' instead of fifteen.' To agree to Lords' amend metes omitting clause 2of Commons' Bill. To disagree to Lords' amendments omitting clauses 18, 19, and 21, of Commons' Bill." Before he made the motion he was anxious to state the general view which her Majesty's Government took of the amendments which bad been made in the Bill, and also as it stood now in being sent down by the Lords. The House was well aware of the extreme case which existed on this subject is Ireland— a case which shoWed, that while they had iu England a per tentage of registered electors in proportion to the male p ipulation, of 8 per cent., in Wales 32 per cent., in Sco:laad 25 per cent., in Ireland the proportion was less than 2 per cent.—(Hear.) Without entering into fur thrr statistics the House would are a strong example of the gPeat decrease of the number of electors in Ireland, and if any further proof were wanting it would be seen in Alayo—s, large and populous county—where, at the elec ion which had just Germinated, less than 250 voters voted for the two candida'es.—(Hear, hear.) What her Mejesty's Government proposed on the subject of elec tor; was to change the present system c f voting alto• gather, and the tenure on which it was fiundcd, into an occupation franchise. He far ono thought that Hon. Gcnilereen, who discussed this subject, were opt to lose sight oF the fact that the practice in England generally was the 40s. freehold franchise: It was no doubt very common to talk of the SQL (=caption, which existed, and to say that an 81. .franchise in Ireland was mueh too 'tow, but in point of fact, the franchise in England ge nerally was the forty-shilling freehold, and to show that such was the case, he should cal the attention of the House to the relative proportions of that franchise as compared with the 50/. in several of the counties. In Berkshire the number of those possessing the 40s. free hold wes 3,274 and of 50/., 853. In Herefordshire, of 40e., 5,280; of 501., 1,639. Lancashire, 16,064; of 501., 3,457. Middlesex, 10,418 40i. freeholders, 1,317 SQL; and in Sussex, 3,769 403. freeholder; and 1,059 of those who posseis a 501. qualification. It was quite clear; therefore, that the great bulk of the voters in the English counties were persons possessed of the 40a franchile—a species of -qualification, as the House well knew, abolished in It eland several years ago, and was now completely extioguished. It was, there fore, prop ised that the great bulk of electors in counties in that country should be occupiers rated to the relief of toe poor, and the first question of great importance which arose on• the amendment cf the Lords was the amount of that rated occupation. They proposed, and it was acceded to by the House, that it should be an 8/. rating, but it was altered in the House cf Lords and raised to 15/. The number of tenants rated at 8/ would be 33 0,223,-alereas the number-at 1.51. would be 180,000, anti if they dedaeted,ontorifth, which was the usual pro portion for double occupation and tenements inhabited by female; the number at 81 would be 264,000, and at 15/. 144,000. It appeared, therefore, that the amend ments made by the Lords struck out no less than 120,000 voters out of 264,000 to whom that House accorded the right to vote. That amendment, however, appeared to him to reduce the number in a far greater degree than was in accordance with justice; it was, in point of fact, reducing the proportion of Irish voters as com pared with English much smaller than it ought to be. He (Lord J. Russell) proposed in some measure to remedy that great deftet; he proposed to take 121. instead of 151., which would give 172,000 voters instead of 144,000. The propesition originally adopted was in the proportion of 15 per cent. to the male population, the amendment in the Lords made it but 8 per cent. wed the proposal he was now a b out to make of a 121 : !sting would make it about 10 per cent. He (Lord J. Resell) thought that if the rate of voting aas raised to 15/. a question would arise immediately whether the right of voting by tenure, and especially the ancient right of the 40s. franchise, should he again resorted to.— (Cheers.) He wished, however, as soon as possible, to have such a number as to farm a constituent body, and on that ground he should propose, instead of the 8/., which he yet believed was perfectly reasonable, and of the 151. proposed by the House of Lords, that in order to remedy a crying grievance which now existed, to insert 12/. instead of 15/., which was almost dividing the difference. There was another alteration made to which he (Lord J. Russell) attached greater importance, because the whole principle of the Bill was involved in it. They might take the rating at 8/, 10/., 12/., or 15/, but- the main principle and scope of the Bill was, that in stead of sending in claims to be registered, as now, which produced so mach discussion and contention, it should be a self-acting register, and those on the rate books f or t h e rel i ef of the poor should in f u t ure be placed on the list. He thought the adoption of that plan calculated to put an end to the interference of landlords or any other persons, and thus have the registry in future conducted on the simplest scale, and put an end to many evils—(Hear, hear)—morn especially those complicated questions which arose at present.—(Hear, hear.) He, therefore; proposed to disagree altogether with the amendment made in the Lords on that clause, because, as he said before, he attached far greater importance to that, inasmuch as it seemed to him to be entirely con trary to the principle of the measure. Whether, as he already said, the rating was 81. or 12/. was a question fir argument, but on the principle of the Bill he felt no doubt of being right, and he should, there fore, propose_ to disagree altogether from th e Lords' amendments on that subject. There were parts altered in the Lords to which he did not feel disposed to snake any alteratioto although he had not changed his own opinions, for example, "owners cf tenements" was inserted, which altered the Bill in some measure, but he was not disposed to offer any opposition. Another re gardineejoint occupiers was one on which a great deal of discussion took place in that House, and some doubts re specting it were entertained, especially by Irish Mem bers. That clause was struck oat in the Lords, and he (Lord John Russell) did not propose to disagree with thew. Another chine, giving a 5/. freehold, was also altered in the Lords. isle no doubt considered such a clause a very important one, because in the sale and sub division of land now taking place in Ireland, he believed it would create a great number of small proprietors, which was very desirable: the Lords inserted the words "above all charges" in the clause; but as that was in some measure conformable with the freehold right in England, he • would . not insist on that amendment being rejected. There were a good many amendments made in the Bill, and in the schedules attached to it, which were rendered necessary, by the operation of the Bill being fixed to take place on the Ist of June, 1850. The whole effect of those amendments would be that the registry would commence on the 9th of September, 1850, and be completed on the 15th of March, 1851, and after that period it would commence in each year on the lit of June, and end on the Ist of November. These were the amendments sonde by the House of Lords, and he had stated his intentions respecting them. With respect to that now under consideration, he proposed that the House should agree, and they could then proceed with a consideration Qf the next in order. Mr. GASKELL called on the Muse to ask themselves calmly and gravely if the grounds put forward by the Noble Lord were sufficient to induce them to refuse the Bill as altered in th e H ouse of Lords. No one alterations.because a denied but that the Bill as returned from that House would extend the const i tuency of Ireland, and after they had scen - the ope ra ti on of it would be the proper time to propose Iledld wasnot h s old al t i h i e t o a p a i g n h io t n ta th . b e e t merely constituency increased.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) He could not agree in the opinion that that House should pass mea sures for the extension of the franchise, without any re ference to the character of those to whom the votes were given—(Hear, hear)—and he was bound to oppose mea sures which would give power to those whose principles would, he believed, lead to the disruption of tall social ties, and the subversion of every institution in the country.—(Hear, hear.) On that gronnd he felt it his duty to oppose such a measure. But there was no doubt that the Bill, as it had come down from the House of LDrdA, would give a very large extension of the consti tuency in Ireland, and he thought it would, therefore, be very unreasonable other House of Parliament was not willing to make such sweeping alterations as they were. Ile regretted that th© Noble Lord had not shown a more conciliatory dis position in this matter. Mr. F. FRENCH said he certainly did not concur in the opinio❑ of the Hon. Member that this Bill would do much to extend democracy in Ireland. On the con trary, its effect would be to render still more insignifi cant and feeble the already insignificant constituency which exists.—(Hear.) His own view of the Bill, even in its original state, was that it was a disfranchising measure, and certainly his objections were not les'ened when be found the 121. proposition would strike off 24,000 voters from the number which ministers on a calm resolve of the whole subject, decided ought to be enfranchised. Property in Ireland had fallen, from pe culiar circumstances, so low in value that a very large number of pers , )us who were formerly voters, would wit, now ha rated eithEr at 121. cr 15/. He was not disposed to di.franchise those who sent him there; he would ;rather ask the same franchise as we had in England, 403, freehold and all. Sir W. SOMERVILLE complained that the Hon. Member had introduced questions which, whether tight or wrong, had long since been settled, and had no t etre ing on the immediate question before the House. The Hon. Member opposite had complained that the Noble Lord at the he of the Government had not exhibited a more conciliatory disposition. He must say, that in expressing his own views, the Hon. Member had shown a much less conciliatory disposition. 13ut what was the defect they aere called upon to rernsdy? Every one admitted the constituency had dwindled away. But it appeared that even th e estimates formed of its actual amount were far above the truth. In Mayo, the second largest county in Ireland, the constituency had been estimated at 591, whereas, at the election just finished, no more voters than 230 could be brought to the poll. —(Cheers, and counter cheers.) lie understood the chosrs of lion. Gentlemea opposite. But he repeated, that hit firm belief was that in every county in Ireland there was not Ore half the constituency calculated. The Hon. Member had talked a great deal about up holding the privileges of the House of Lords. He trusted that he would not forget the House of Commons hal its priiileges also.—(Bear, hear.) In proposing to adof t a I'2/. franchise after that House had agreed to an 8/. pialitication, he thought his Noble Friend had shown every desire to respect the independence of the other House of Parliament, and at the same time made a reasonable proposition, which he trusted would be ac cepted by :hat House.—(Hear.) Lerd JOCELYN said, when the measure was before the House he had stated his opinion in favour of a 121. franchise, but had strongly objected to the varied end unecteal valuations on which these rentals were assessed. The valuation, which was now nearly completed, would, if generally enforced, remove that inequality, and if his Right Hun. Friend could state that it would be made the foundation of the valuation of the franchise, it would have some weight with him as to the vote ho should give, as well as other lion. Members. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that by the law as it now stood he believed the poor.law valuation wou Id ne cessarily form the foundation of other assessments. At all events, he could asaure his Noble Friend that the matter had received, and would continue to receive, the anxious consideration of the Government. Mr. MOORE said the state of the Opposition benches of that House showed very significantly that this was not a mere Irish question.—(Hear, hear.) Ireland was chosen as the great b ittle field of party. He had no taith in the party on either side. First of all the Noble Lord had been suddenly smitten with a deep sense of the degraded state of the Irish franchise. IV ny, any time for the last six years that degradation might have struck him, and during that time the Irish Members would have gladly aided him to pass any reasonable measure. —(Hear, hear.) What was the reason why the Whigs, who had been so long playing at Tories—(Hear, and a laugh)—should co suddenly have discovered the ne cessity for extending the franchise? Why did Paul appear among the prophets? It was because the trumpet of protection had been sounded across the Chan nel.— (Hear, hear.) It was not until the cruiser was in sight that the masters proposed to arm the slaver. He might be wrong in these suspicious.—(" Hear," from Lord John Russell, followed by laughter.) Well, if he was areng, it was easy fo the Noble Lord to set him right. Let him pledge himself to introduce another Bill for the reform of the Irish frenchise, at least as tiberal as that he had brought in this year. Legit him pledge himself honestly, earnestly, and strenuously to bring to the aid of that measure nil his official influence—such, for instance, as he exetchted in the case of the African Equadron.—(llear, hear.) If the Noble Lord would do thet, he would pledge himself that the Irish Members would give him oil the ail in their power. The Noble Lord was silent. If the Noble Lord would not do that, he for one would not lift a finger to tight any more pars ) -, party battle for the Noble Lerel.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") On the other hand, Honourable Gentlemen opposite, by their conduct on the question, had re newed the battle betierea their party and the people of Ireland. He warred them that in the end that must be fatal to them.—(Hear, hear.) As to the fears expressed of the results of an'extension of the suffrage in Ireland, he spoke from considerable experience when be said that mob law and mob dictation were the result of a narrow, not an extended franchise. Let thorn imagine the posi tion of 1,000 voters spread over a large county. There might be only ten cr twelve in a single district. These might be taken up to the poll under the protection of the co7lstabulary, and back again to their homes, but the moment they were left there, tt cy might as a ell be placed among a pack of wolves.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Why was this? Because the voters were not a large enough body to protect themselves, and because the others were excited by their exclusion from the franchise. Colonel DUNNE would vote with the Noble Lord for the rs.ciuction of the qualification from 131. to 121. He believed there would be no objection to the view taken by the Noble Lord in respect to the other amendments male by the Lords—namely, that relating to joint oc cupancy; but be also believed that the machinery of the Bill, in reference to the self-acting registration clause, the third amendment of tho Lords, would be most pre judicial to its successful operation. Colonel RAWDON said that the Bill had been treated with injustice by the other House. Mr. CLEMENTS said he would support the proposi tion of the Noble Lord, the First Lord of the Treasury. Mr. ANSTEY said that although he supported the Noble Lord's proposition, he did so with considerable regret, because he thought the franchise of Ireland was miserably low, and this 121. franchise would not place it in the position in which it ought to stand. He would himself, on a future occasion, bring in a measure to in crease the franchise in Ireland, England, and Scotland. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD would vote for the proposition of the Noble Lord as a matter of necessity, but he entered his protest against the proposed franchise being considered as that to which the Irish people were entitled. Mr. SCULLY also supported the proposition of the Government with great regret, because it was not equal to the requirements of the Bill. Mr. BRIGHT said, if he understood it aright, this was the measure of the session, and they were soon to part without having passed any Act of great public utility but this. It was a sorry account that the Government would have to render to the public for the time that had been occupied by Parliament in its deliberations. With re gard to this particular measure, no man could say that the Government had grappled with the representation of Ireland before it was absolutely necessary; because, with a population of eight millions, living under the same constitution as ourselves, there was scarcely any representation whatever amongst them. In bringing forward the 81. franchise the Noble Lord de fended that measure on grounds perfectly satisfactory to him (Mr. Bright), and if his intention had been spoiled by what had taken place in the House of Lords, the Noble Lord was still responsible for what had taken place there. The conduct of the Government in the House of Lords had been completely different from what it had been in the Commons, and it would seem from all that had taken place there, that the Government in tended it not to be an eight-pound franchise Bill, but that that amount should be altered by the Lords. The principle of the eight-pound franchise had been affirmed by increasing majorities of their own House o and if the majorities and minorities of both Houses were added to gether, it would upper that that principl e h a d b een car ried by a total majority of 47.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He know that Hon. Members were not used to that sort of arithmetic, but this he would say that in a matter effecting the elective franchise of the House of Commons, the votes of the House of Commons were more entitled to regard than those of the other branch of the Legislature.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Crown was also in favour 01 an eight-pound franchise; and if the Crown and the House of Commons had approved of this step, it was doubly incumbent on the Noble Lord, as the Minister of the Crown, to have seen that it was carried, and he ought to have been cautious how he al lowed a small majority, of a small House, sitting in another place, to override the measures of the other estate of the country.—(Cheers.) Thu Lords would have carried the franchise higher than 15/. if they dared, and the Noble Lord knowing their designs that way, ought to have stood manfully by it, and have preserved it in its integrity. The Noble Lord was a great man for constitntions, and one of his chief objects was to work this House in harmony with the House of Lords. He bad undertaken a hopeless task. That very day they had been engaged in the discussion of a subject which gave them an obvious specimen of the dead lock at which the two Houses were now arriving. —(Hear. and cheers.) The House of Commons and the Ministry were treated with contempt, but the Noble Lord per sisted in ripening the pear, and in " bombarding" the Lords with good measures, as he believed the phrase was before 1841—(A laugh)—and in paring down every measure which ho believed necessary for the good of the country, till it passed through the gauge which might please the House of Lords. (He ar , hear.) The Noble Lord's constitution would not work. In this conjuncture of affairs the course which the Noble Lord ought to take was to state at the beginning of the session, in introducing the single measure of un doubted utility, which he would now be able to pass in a session, that he intended that it should bo passed in the form substantially in which it was introduced. The course which at present ho was pursuing was humiliat ing to the House and destructive to the Noble Lord's Government, besides which, it kept those back who were sitting on the Liberal side of the House from advancing measures which they were sent there to support. Their safest policy in Ireland was the most generous policy.— (Hear, hear.) They h a d tr i e d other policies there for centuries, and there wa s now no spectacle so humiliat ing as that to which Ireland had been reduced by the rule of the " territ or i a l system. " Generosity and justice was the rem e dy w hi ch they never yet had tried, and at was the ono they were now voting against, apparently because they were afraid of having a hundred gentlemen there to represent truly the territory of Ireland. If the 121. franchise were now taken and the terms he proposed, I he trusted that in the course of one or two sessions the Noble Laid would find himself forced to propose the extension of the tiariehise contemplated by this Bill when it left them. Of this, at least, he was convinced, that a liberal and generous policy toward Ireland was the only one which could bring them from the leaders whom they said !sail misled them. Lord J. RUSSELL said ho felt sorry to have to ad dress the House on the topics to which the Honourable Member for Manchester had adverted, but he could not altogether avoid doing so; f.)r the Hon. Gentleman, not confining himself to this Bill entirely, had thought fit to lay down propositions which, as he conceived, he thought tended to disparage the present constitution of this country, and led to the establishment of some other. But this was a question which arose for their decision on some amendments which had come down from the Lords, and which it was therefore necessary for them to deal with on the decisions of that House of Parliament. Tho lion. Member for. Manchester now proposed, that with regard to any measure cf the kind in future, the Minister should state, in introancing it, that he in tended it should be carried. Virell,lf the Bill ahOnld hap. pen to be rejected by the Lords altogether the son. Member s f.!l back o h r o o u o l . d h l a t v lb e t somethi ng r views of the constitution which the Hoe. Member, a s _ expressed, but they ought not to blind themselves f r u: tt . moment as to whet his views were. The Monett h o lv_ yindesthi reabbi:ct",c)gfroonuonsvd.ins_l Member, in faet, proposed that their deliberarrhtuo should proceed without reference to history or rega precedent. It was plain that instead of discussieVio idea; in detail, they should sit as an absolutelyi dec to ito assembly, with no barrier to its will, no oppos-t- en ute d decrees, and before which all the states and consn lendies of this country should bow. It in past :each a thing was desirable, but all hecouirsab; ei is that he, at least, was not one to desire it. ImPe dinl • ac i. in the way of legislation, and the delay alwaYs I a dental to the progress of large measuree, they familiar with; but he thought let that the sum of under their constitution was so great, their institudtveleith so valuable, and their fruits so precious, as colnPa re h i e h those derived from other forms of government a', 01 ., were recorded in ancient and modern history, th.7dl though he would not declare them to bo deo e ga h werecoad iaferior, still he would not lightly sures of change and resistance.—(Hear, hear.) Hi be ways consideted that existing laws should °I) ulblic changed when the change was obviously for the p good; and in this view he had always acted 0 011 4: to the prospect before him —according to the conatit.s embrace _Ts., Lion which he did not frame, but unde r which he : h. .' bore, and which he certainly did not wish to oveture. _ (Che'rs.) It was proposed, some time ago, that st ,_: most important change should be made in the con . tires of the House of Commons. He was not dip.Uletiti: by reverses; but, after ten years of discussion gnu ; vs beration, he had the satisfaction of seeing of Parliament adopted. He did not say be disrega_7 o , all respect for the constitution, because the Bill adopted at once.--(dear.) Then he proposed a 0;7 ° 7, , of great consequence with respect to religious was sue. namely, the Corporation and Test Acts. fle e ls ee t be a great aided cessful in his fires attempt to repeal those laws, utt, n , had in the first instance, by way cf compromise, in the rented to the substitution of a declaration. Thee c t lu ake e commutation of tithes, ha remembered that the P e e i e t and some Hon. Members did him the honour to f 1 , 1 3 ; 00 out that his measure did not meet the wish es o , o d to exactly whom it most concerned. He oue s° % the their proposition, and by that means securen enactment of his measure. He might tnee ti° „ ae gb rious other matters, but this be thought was s- l i t tle to show that great good might arise from do . timely sacrifice cf pride and extent of original inteahoe The Honourable Gentleman appeared not o ea hie forgotten the words in which he once eta wed opinion that the Honourable Member eater} narrow views on certain points. The Hono urable her seemed on that occasion, us he frequently bad e ; a to think that the aristocracy of this country w o d be class quite independent of others in the countrYlo get said he thought that was a narrow vie w of t question. troub le Mr. BRIGHT—I can save the Noble Lord the . 0 t be of the rest of' the illustration. I was not referring :1 dig' matter he has been speaking of, but to the untgehe COa tribution of the representatives of the peopl e in I" fait ueracipit. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—It was a matter of Il e o el Lion. Ile (Lord John Russell) was *peaking ° l, f 11 : 1113° learning in the Church or i n the law, or of etue•all el had achieved distinguished positions in a rms ' ;fib s whom had arrived at some of the highest honourseersel Peerage, and formed as proud a part of the aristy'', l o. es any who could claim descent from an aue ie 7lT ea He thought, and maintained, that it Ices _,l 3c4 at i O of a l , unfounded fact, contrary to all they had re- Ole" history, and were seeing every day, and cue e ffect, if believed, would have a miscbievotia St and by the ultimate disunion of clas s : o loe which it aimed, wo u ld u lti ma t e ly keel to the char. subversion of the constitution at present exil/eieber was for that reason that ho thought the Han' . a g th e fir Manchester was quite mistaken in considerlty aristocracy as a part of the community dis ti" , e se s e vided from the res,. On the coetrary, they a c ;„1 0 At completely and desirably connected with the P e o f ee ted large, that their ranks were continually being ~,,aah g 000. b the most meritorious and deserving. '•;te"evianted Gentleman was not satisfied with the Bill• Russell) the eight-pound franchise. Ho (Lord Joh_,Lye bee° wanted the same thing, and he wished it coult" — t. Oh' carrisd through the other House of l'arhaa len Gevera . jeutions had been taken to the conduct of .the io tnent in Leving delayed bringing forward lys! correct the deficiency of the Irish constituaueni-oitta the famine with which the country ha d bee e diste brought with it calamities which required imred pore teation and relief, and they thought the se 'bile tb mount claim upon their consideration, an d 2 1 , did 0 1 redress pressed so forcibly upon there+ tueJiee, think it was a time to introduce a political quest t ook s : that it was more fit to po s tpone • ee r he -t Till hes) blame to themselves for the delay. --- V' s- ,: s ad This year they brought forward this Bill, I t Pratt House, and went up to the Lords, whe re a 170 7 e were made in it. The constituency would be rt h then That was a great good, and h e conceived it W e e b e d a while to pass it. With regard to tho future• b e, pis.l; specific course to propose to either side. i f I I ; but Jf constituencici were contented with it, very wreeliags it did not give satisfaction, and excited strong 'e bold be disapproval, and it was found necessary that it s o t easel extendel, their consent te this Bill would V c i f il ir ,bei i slr i why they should -into ereafter extead are 91- f: He had acted h er i nstances i n the re fs le: under . similar circumstances, in order to i feerl ies f constitution of this country, to give greater a ga eriti i o o the people, to promote the ' happ - iness and Pr e i• t heir Pe' the country, and to preserve the perneanen e f ° stitutions. Mr. M'CULLAGII said, one Hon. Mer ni e ler f Lo r i to have the Bill as it came front the nou s • ° lsties -A ° lie could not consent to that. That was a vender,the principle of the Bill, which it was fallfrasae l l. was that something like an equalitY e` s should be given to Ireland with the rest ef tb 0 3441 ; That principle was asserted in that Hous e b leela sg ia ties of 58 and 69. It was now intimated tha., aro% strong feeling was manifested in Ireland the 140 1 : t be a permanent Bill. He did not hold b ; responsible for the alterations made in the C e-. ite, aua g m e i n tpt t ie l e e e m ,int e od n uficx o e p dt p h o e s chise. A Noble Lord a wh c o at w io e n re at inlarnirairdit; ere:: u hl uisoe the o r L o otherr ds ourasle.s.7o..icroesrijalisii, meat, who was not without great influence tnelol.tieeb• the Bill which this House had passed w as e C eleo e would enfranchise the rubbish of Ireland, an f elections under the influence of the Pr iesta l e . ek grtavuocahios constituent s p t t o u p o o n s o e y d o b y r : 1 6 ( 7 ,0 aMemberbd firthatl,."-113/.,6,06-0"0-0; ported by the Secretary for Ireland, would giro for ‘ l . 2 6,00 c oo so that it would create a difference of whole of the constituency. In five of the Isrges ties in the province of Connaught, 1 1 5 .1' O d a ; chiso would give a constituency but of 9, b e Irci t of franchise of 121. would give 1,174. N or, ask whether, even if t h e cons ented t° this leeld y s qualification, th e y , k new w h e ther the Lords -ci she ject it. H e h a d no a l ternat i ve t o chooser " vote for neither. vibew i le Mr. M. O'CONNELL said the uestion Wa s c , for Irela nd or 11°T1 big b ' they should have a franchi se / too gO thought 81. too high, and now thought 12.. eta t ad° t eo but he thought the Bill contained one greats g is the mode of registration. He rcaarded, as e ffects A good, the fact that the registration ' we a , l o d e b o e ol id e e e r s e ; without the solicitation of the eitoter -- e - Toeer - that a great advantage. He should vote for tel e ti r s pea of the Noble Lord, and take every mean s i p d ud to improve it hereafter. artl Mr. SHEIL said the Member for Dunda lk ""r e ifl e a e di • the case as if the Noble Lord had the po'" r o rigin: the House of Lords to pass the Bill as it w as r e sitoe'i l ds proposed, but he could not do so. He trt i n i r - Th i ef hope that the Lords would retrace their titer,' e st h ha s em d ye a r d ien o j p ebo te toe d tdh t i h ct e aisoe p s r o_ i o n e c in ip o l ta e hsee o . selfaregistratioet wit s / 0 and boroughs—and there was no reason whY ! i d co T u h n e ti retention of the old system would adopt it in the one Paso and reject it in the 0- re ev, rise t° o ese e tt h e agitation, which would involve the territorial gi 0 0 0 0 dotal interests in a perpetual wrestle. It w 5 5 1 109 0 0, to suppose that an appeal from a consecrateuol would not reach a 151 . franchise as well as e his 0 10 chise. Father O'Shaugnessy would Wage sera i m ee gregation, and give notice of the ApprOSClllfAc biro serve notices to register. He would hope a c ette a eggs:fel lai:libleobeoffitio: that day week they would all have served their God and be prepared at the next election to Tote fdr' Ya tr to their country.—(Laughter and " Hear, hea, l 4 % ,,leee c tsa* Murphy is touched by the invitation, • athe e f t he „ ar t', serve the necessary notice. He meets one 0 , istlehi s w h el o lian possessors of the writ, who it e , o h e is t is tP. e lelt hear?w accosts him in this fashion: — " Have you given notice to register' ke greh t he Murphy takes off his hat, which reaches i" at he ; goo, and bending low with obsequious subra• s s ec eeee e same wors time displaying his gray hairs, PO% to in of d —"Father O'Sbaugnesvy." "Don't talk ogee ryso 6 - Father O'Shaugnessy. Does Father t' ol d be kuow that you have no lease?" These vr e ° bro ile d of constitutional influences which would, b a lter, e veo bear upon the registrations as they had ue e e ta h bad the Lords. He objected to the omission wnz`• doh* ii i s tra • c is 0 made in the eelf-acting principle of reg inte would in fact be an appeal-for the ballot in t _t orv ienef o 'so those who thought secresy better than sa" jac eetj, r 01 0 (Hear.) The amendments made were on s e de r agitation. He did not, however, despair hat to ee e Pe slie would change their course when they,cam-, of to s the the consequeuces. He did not cretion of Lord Stanley. Thst Noble Lor, e ' trail 113 e . despair er c d _ w hea b ioe Emancipation Act was passed, thought L t" o i t ereo he too high. In the case of the Reform Bill a ° ft Wa_e l i er oath by which the franchise was lowere ° i n ge", who gave an intellectual qualification, bY tb b i c h I rs g be tion of the system of national education, w ry, t iot to t measure of wisdom, and was his highest g, l l t r efien t ,ivi t less btcause it stood alone . He, too, weir, t he r e h 'eli' his advent to power would be the signal t ole 1- o b f unseen doings, whereby party woul d tiietatio lea. o r erties of the people under a tyrannical d e a l 'heo e d h Mr. DISRAELI said objections were exe rcts d oe er branch of the Legislature because thel oca stitl 0 0 0 privilege conferred upon them by tbe ke a co jot There was no reason to say there would rt io r IA • lit bit e °en the two Houses. The House as e ralig agree to the proposal now made, or that ea o ooo beie;bee jest it. Ho complained of her 'MajeJitY' a e r) t he b e e n l? troduced into the debate, its it had been by b e co „ t oo fir Manchester, which was unconstitutiV,s;seef Arty might fetter the freedom of debate. 'l ll °, l ' l er ode,' eer in their discretion, hadpresumed tomsa 8 1 . i 6 Wee t tioni in this Bill. The Bill Peat up, u .' ; on . e chiso. It came down with a 151. qualificaa' eb ise. oat tvai proposal that it should be a 12/. T ri t u tie O el pes, eupereuu between the. House of Lords 5 01 : 0 4 , Aloe. , went was between a 12/. and a 15/. Iran- - wry. - o r ; question was the self-acting refaispf was a point upon which there were •