The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-15 00:00:00

`" reading, but would feel at liberty to take which course he thought fit upon the third reading. S:r T. FRENIANTLE said, though he understood the Hon. Gentleman intended to support the second reading of the WI, he was desirous at that early period of offering a few ob servations to the House, and he hoped the House would indulge him for a short time. He could not pass by the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, for it appeared to him that the Hon. Gen tleman acted rather hastily upon his own impressions of wha the future policy of the Government with respect to Ireland would be, considering this Bill as the precursor of others which would follow. In looking narrowly into this question he felt, after the full and able exposition given of the measure and of the views of hisaight Hon. Friend at the head of the Adminis tration, that he had little more to say in recommending the measure to the House. He wished, however, with reference to his own position and his own feelings, to state the grounds on which he entirely concurred ut those views. The opposition to the proposed grant came from two sources, one from those who opposed it entirely on religious grounds, and the other tram those who opposed it on what was called the voluntary prin ciple, and those who objected to any grant of public money in aid of Church matters. In regard to the first, he confessed that he could nat concur with them in thinking that this question ought to be viewed as a religious one. Undoubtedly it had been stated, and stated truly, that every act of a man's life ought to be subjected to moral and religious responsibility. But he could not see in what way religion was violated by voting for a measure of this kind. The Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hawes) had stated, and he (Sir 'l'. Fremantle) concurred with him, that this vote, whether it were passed, or whether it were refused, would not encourage or discourage in the slightest degree the Catholic religion in Ireland. They were dealing with a population of between six and seven millions. Was it to be supposed that whether they gave a better or a worse education to the priest of Ireland the extension of the Catholic or the Protestant reli gion would be affected one way or the other? He could not understand hew the religious question had arisen, unless it were supposed that the effect of this grant would be to in duce those who are Protestants now to become Roman Catholics. He conceived, therefore, that he was perfectly justified with reference to all religious denominations, in voting as a matter of charity—as a matter of public expedi • ency—that this grant should be made. He conceived he was justified in doing this without reference to any religious considerations whatever. His Hon. Friend, the Member for the University of Oxford, had brought this question home in a much more intelligible way, as he said that he would not consent to give anything to persons who taught that which was erroneous in doctrine. Now, the question was, whether thee could act on that principle or whether they could not? Now he did not think that his Hon. Friend himself could alto gether act upon that principle. Could he act upon that prin ciple in the situation of landlord, or guardian, or parent, or in any other relation in which he might be called upon to stand? Now his Hon. Friend proposed to leave a large population in Ireland without the means of religious instruction. The prin ciple which his Hon. Friend advocated had been violated in numerous instances. The statute-book contained se veral enactments in which that principle had been violated. In the army estimates there was a distinct vote for the pay ment of Roman Catholic chaplains. Every military hospital was furnished with a Roman Catholic chaplain, if there were a sufficient number of Roman Catholic soldiers in the regiment to require his attendance. To that he thought that the Hon. Gentleman could not object. There was no religious prin ciple violated in the measure. There was no principle of the Protestant Church violated in the vote. With re gard to that port ion of the question, it had been before advocated in that House. It had been advo cated in the year ISO'S by Mr. Tierney, and in language so much better than any he ( Sir I'. Fremantle) could make use of, that he could not do better than quote it. In support of the grant to Maynooth, Mr. Tierney had said that they might make the Irish Catholics bad subjects—they might make them bad Catholics—they might make them bad Christians, but they could not make them Protestants, and that there was no effectual method of improving the condition of Ireland but by educating the Catholics. Mr. Grattan, who was also a most high authority on this subject, had said, in the same debate, that if they refused this grant they would be securing the ignorance of a great portion of the Roman Catholic clergy—that to secure religious conformity was impracticable, and that they would render the securing of political conformity equally impracticable if they were to refuse this vote. lie concurred in these opinions, and he believed that the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend was not only justifiable in principle, but that it was absolutely just.—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend, in a former debate, had gone into the history of the system so fully, that it would be unnecessary for him ( Sir Thomas Fremantle) to go over the same ground. They knew that the College of May nooth had been established by an Act of the Legislature, in 1795 ; that by another Act of the Legislature it had been re- cognised, in 18 .0; and that, as late as the year I •403, another Act of Parliament lead not only acknowledged its existence, but had given it a firmer settlement, and had given the trustees of that College power to take and to hol 1 larger quantities of land than they had been enabled to hold before. In addition to this the grant had been made uninterruptedly till the present time. When they considered who had established the College it was rather too much to say that they should not continue the grant, and even extend it. All, he believed, were in favour of the principle of the grant.—( Cries of " Heat.")_ He believed that it was not denied that the number of Ro man Catholics had doubled in Ireland since the Union. In 1795 the Catholic population was estimated at four millions— it was now seven millions. There was another question—the I pestion of contract—upon which he wished to say a very few words. It was only those who wished to shrink from the performance of a contract, who would first demand its produc tion.—( Hear, hear.) But there were agreements and under takings between men and parties which ought to be more bind ing than contracts. It should be recollected that the College of Ma)nooth was established and endowed by a Parliament which was entirely Protestant ; and it was established with the perfect understanding that the grant was to be permanent. It was also to be remembered that the Roman Catholics, since the Union, had exercised great influence upon Par liamentary questions. They had contributed to the carrying of the Reform Bill and other measures, and it could not be doubted that if the Parliament had con- tinned in Ireland an enlarged g rant would have been given be fOre this to the Irish priesthood. He thought that they ought not to legislate for Ireland in an Irish sense.—( Hear, hear.) If the question touched any great subject connected with the in terests of the empire, they then should look upon it as an im perial question, but when it did not affect the interests of this country, they ought to view it as an Irish question, and they ought to deal with it as Irish Members. In support of that argument, he might refer to the contrast between the feeling in Ireland and that in England on this matter.—( Hear, Lear.) Though the table was covered with peti tions against the grant to Maynooth from England and Scotland, those from Ireland were very few, though there ex isted a strong feeling in Ireland against Catholicism, and a fear of Catholic ascendancy. He might also allude to the petition from one Presbyterian body in favour of the grant, which was presented by his Right Hon. Friend. If, then, there was no principle to be violated, and if it was but just that the vote should be made, it was easy to perceive that the policy which led to it was good. The existing want of everything necessary to keep up a great establishment had been depicted to the House over and over again, and had not been denied by any Member. His Right Honourable Friend was perfectly correct when he stated that they gave enough to prevent voluntary con tributions, but they did not give enough to keep up an institu tion. The allowance made was so inadequate that stu dents were very frequently obliged to leave the College before they had completed their academical course. He thought that it would be well worth the expenditure of a few pounds to introduce a better feeling in the breasts of those who could not leave the College without a feeling of degrada tion. He rejoiced that this measure had been introduced by her Majesty's Government, because he did think it would be a great means of removing some of the many grievances of which the Irish people had to complain, and particularly those causes of discontent so justly existing amongst the Roman Catholics of that country.--( Cheers from the Opposition. ) It would also, he hoped, have the effect of inspiring the great majority of the people of that country with confidence in the existing Government—(Cheers)—for without that con fidence it was useless to hope that the existing Government could be upheld.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) No doubt, it would be very easy, if the exist in.. Government did not choose to covet this con fidence, to send military troops, and enforce courts-martial in that country, to enforce obedience to the law ; but he would contend for it that such a mode of attempting to prevent eva sions of the laws, would never be successful in enabling the ex isting Government to carry on the business of the country.— ( Hear, hear.) Therefore, he must hold that, in order to con vince the Irish people that their confidence was sought, some such measure as this was necessary to be introdeced.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) When once the people of Ireland saw that the intentions of the Government were conciliatory and honest, they would give them credit for meaning well towards them.—( Hear, hear.) But it would be unnecessary for him to follow this subject out any further. Already they saw many indications of improvement in Ireland. Railroad projects were now being extensively carried on in that country ; and he did hope they would prove to be but the forerunners of others still more extensive and beneficial, if topics of a' political character were not kept up as a means of preventing that union of inte rest as well as of affection which should ever exist between the two countries. Mr. FOX MAULE said, that he was perfectly aware that he could scarcely command the attention of the House at that hour, when more distinguished individuals were expected to address it, but he felt that it would be necessary for him to detain them for a very short time while he explained the rea sons why he intended to vote against the second reading of this Bill. He thought that the Right Hon. Baronet had not made out a case for the allowance of this grant, nor had he (Mr. F. Maule) heard from that (the Ministerial) side of the House one argument to disprove the saying of his Hon. Friend near him, that this measure had an ulterior object. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that his Hon. Friend had no right to make that supposition. He ( Mr. F. Maule) would grant that the Right Hon. Gentleman was right in contradicting the line of sasgument advanced by his Hon. Friend, provided he had proved to the House that those anticipations were not well grounded. But he had not chosen to give his own friends or the House the smallest hint to guide them in this case.—( Hear, hear. ) He (Mr. F. Maule) grounded his opposition to this Bill on the assamption that this was no final measure—(Cheers)—but that there would be an ulterior course adopted which he could not and would not approve. He thought that no one could doubt, unless indeed the Right Hon. Baronet himself would, that there was a strong feeling in the public mind on this subject, an d t h at the petitions which had been presented to .this House did not b emanate from any system of centraliza tion, but from th e general feeling. That one which the Ri g ht Hon. Baronet had himself the other day presented was an ex ception to the rule, b ut it would have been the height of in gi atitude if that petition h a d not been presented at that time. NVhy, those parties hyaedar,a of til their own before that House last and p e e r tltion ß s om in an their Ca fa th v o o l u i r e ! of Ireland had presented numerous Ingratitude if the Dis- It would then have been the height 'enters of Scotland had not come forwardlie h oped ir) support the that the question in reland. n s sixsan Catholics upon this question. Howe would acquit him of all wish to discuss this a spirit of hostility to the Roman Catholic —( Hear, hear.) He would not enter into any religious dis pute whatever. He tho ug h t he had a right to discuss this isas a political mea =ure of the Government ; but in doing so it was impossible to avoid some reference to the effect o f t h e me asure upon the religious feelings of this country._ (Near, hear.) He maintained that the grant to Maynooth was not a matter of contract. Look to the origin of the vote and you would find it originated in 1795 ; and he could not help thinking from all that he saw in the paltry grant of ti,ooo/.,that jt was nothing more than a subscription on the part of the Government, at the time when they had granted to the people of Icolarul the great boon of being allowed to establish an institu tion for the education of their own clergy. It was a boon to the people, to allow them to erect places where they could themselves educate their priesthood. That was a boon worth the Irish people's receiving. But as that paltry grant was given then, and continued since, it was only meant as a bene volence of the Government, to assist the private benevolence of individuals. He was not prepared to discontinue the grant, '-itiance as it now was, he held that to testion from that at present before the The question was not now whether old grant, but whether they would id permanent endoement.—( Hear.) was even to be by an annual vote, luestion the same as the mere eon that was a question not now before ifisition on this, that it was proposed co fthe education of the Catholic clergy , )nnexion with the State.—( Hear.) Was that principle consistent with what they had done in ! other cases ?—( Hear.) They had introduced also another principle into the grant by taking the Irish Catholic Church into connexion with the State, without reserving -o the State any controul over the new establishment.—( Hear.) Was that the principle on which they had proceeded in other m fitters?— ( Cheers.) It wa: not—and he stood there as an example of the opposite principle.—( Hear, hear.) When he came to the House with petitions and claims of right, from the Presby terian people of Scotland. setting forth the privileges to which they considered themselves entitled by ancient statutes, sod by the articles of union—when he claimed that they should have in the Scotch Church the management of their own spiritual welfare and should not be interfered with by the State—he was told by Gentlemen who supported the measure now, that the claim was monstrous and inconsistent to have a Church in connexion with the State, over which the State should have no control. That was the case with the Scotch Church ; and four hundred of her most active ministers, and nearly a million of her most faithful people were driven from her pale. —( Hear. hear.) How then could Gentlemen opposite come forward now to ask him, a member of the Free Church of Scotland, to support them, on public grounds, in a measure for placing the Roman Catholics in connexion with the State in respect to en dowment, not under the control of the State ?—(Cheers.) If they were right in this case, how unjust had they been in the case of the Scotch Church ?—( Hear.) If they were right in that case, how could they turn round now, and take the oppo site course ?—( Hear, hear.) He understood the course of the Government as little as he understood the advice of the Right Honourable Baronet opposite to Irish landlords — advice, however, in which he (Mr. Fux Maule) concurred—to give sites for the building of houses of worship, and of schools, and to assist their tenantry in the education of their clergy? Was it the intention of the Right Honourable Baronet to ad vise a member of his own Cabinet, sitting in the other house, to act in the same spirit towards his poor tenantry in Scotland ? Cheers. ) Was it the intention of the Right Honourable Baronet to remonstrate with that Member of his own Govern ment for refusing his poor tenants a site for building a place of meeting, for which they were willing to pay, or to allow them even to assemble on a corner of the old moor—so that they were compelled to meet fur prayer upon the Sabbath at the place where three reads met ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The name was familiar to the Right Honourable Baronet.—( Hear, hear.) But it was said that the Parliament ought to take compassion upon Irish poverty. He did not know that. They were told that there were eight millions of htoman Catholics in Ireland ; and he did not think that they ought to be behind hand with the seven or eight hundred thousand Presbyterians of the Free Church of Scotland, who were thrown upon their own resources, and in the last two years had erected six hun dred chapels, and had raised a sum of 600,0001. fur various ecclesiastical purposes.—( Hear, hear.) No one would say that the members of the Free Church were of the richer class in Scotland, on the contrary they were of the poorer: Now he believed that no people held their religion more dear than the Catholics of Ireland, and he would say to them, "instead of coming here for this endowment, you should follow the ex ample of the Scotch Presbyterians, and we will assist you, by repealing still further the Mortmain Act—and then you will be far more respected in this country than by coming here for an endowment."—( Hear, hear.) But they had heard a very extraordinary statement as to the condition of the Col lege, which they were told w as so wretched as to call for legislative relief. But, last year, a countryman of his went over to Maynooth, and visited the College ; and he has published his opinion of its condition and arrangements—he meant Mr. James Grant. That gentleman described the situa tion of the place and its nature, and then went on to describe the interior. He said that all the arrangments were excellent, and well adapted to the purposes of such an institution. The young men were well fed, comfortably lodged, and cleanly clad. Mr. SHEIL—Oh ! that was a Scotchman's account.— (Immense laughter. ) Mr. F. MAULE—It was the opinion of a Scotchman who was very hospitably received, and had every opportunity of judging of what he described.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Grant did not write like one who was actuated by a hostile spirit.— But from his description of the condition of the student, it seemed questionable that the statements the House had re ceived the other night were not in some degree overcharged.— ( Hear, hear.) With regard to the conciliation of this measure, he would say, that only two years ago, the Right Hon. Baronet told the House that conciliation had reached its ut most limits towards Ireland.—( Cheers. ) This was one of the concessions which always came from the Right Hon. Baronet's party—and which always came too late.— ( Cheers ) Mr. O'Connell denied the conciliation, and thanked them for no more than the posses ion.—( Hear, hear.) He said that he would go on with agitation until he got all that he wanted.—( Hear. ) If they wished to coiciliate, they ought to have done so in some way that would not excite the religious feelings of the people of this country. —( hear. ) For his part he was disposed to do justice to Ireland in the fullest sense of the word. But he would ask, was there no op portunity of doing so in matters in which the people of Eng land might have looked on as impartial judges in their poli tical character?—( Cheers. ) Was there no franchise in which concession to Ireland would creato no religious rancour in England ?—( Cheers. ) What became of the zeal of the Right Hon. Baronet, when he passed over the franchise, which they might have proposed to equalise, and in which he, for one, would assist them with a liberal hand ?—( Cheers. ) There were other questions on which they could have laid their hands without violation to any religious feeling.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the Right Hon. Baronet could not allow this debate to close without stating explicitly whether the measure was intended as a prelude to the endowment of the Catholic clergy as a body.-- (Cheers.) He could not under stand how, after their conduct on the question of the Church of Scotland, they could propose to endow the Church of a different religion in a neighbouring country, and excltrie the interference of the State. That would be an act of injustice to the whole body of the Dissenters in this country. I.'or his part, he had always opposed the principle, and although he was a member of the Church of Scotland, and was a friend to Church extension, when Dr. Chalmers, ten years afro (in 1835), was making great efforts for that object, 'he at that time opposed a public grant, on the grounds of his present opposition to the measure before the Howe—( Hear, and cheers) and whether from such an accidental union as that of the Right Hon. Member for Oxford, or from any other motive, he could succeed in stopping this Bill, he knew not. But this he knew, that the proposal would not allay agi tation in Ireland, whilst it had raised up an agitation in Eng land to feelings of bitterness which it would take no small time to allay.—( Cheers. ) A great number of Members use at once to speak, amidst great laughter, and it took the Speaker some seconds to decide that his eye had first been caught by Lord CASTLEREAGH, who said that as he was desirous of addressing the House upon this question. he was glad to rise after his Hon. Friend the Member for Perth, to whom he was extremely sorry he should be opposed ; although he must also say that he was not so opposed to his Hon. Friend in any spirit of party.—.( Hear, hear. ) His Hon. Friend had alluded to a petition which had been presented in favour of the Bill from a body of Presbyterians in his (Lord Castlereagh's) county, and he (Lord Castlereagh) was glad to have an opportunity of bear ing testimony to their high religious character and liberality. With reference to the question, the House or the country had no right to declaim for being taken by surprise. He (Lord Castlereagh) and his friends were prepared for some great measure being proposed for Ireland, and it was his astonish ment to find that this, the first one, was so exceedingly trifling. They had discussed this grant for fifty years. For fifty years it had been the unceasing cause of squabble and noise, and they had come down to the House with various feelings, but the great feeling that prevailed was, that the Irish people never thanked them for their parsimony; they gave them 9,0001., but they gave it to them gradually, and they did not thank them. He was glad that the first thin g done in this measure was the setting at rest the question of whether the grant was to be continued or not. When that was the question, he voted against the grant, but not against his Catholic fellow countrymen, for Heaven knew that the first time he spoke in that House, he addressed it in the cause of his Roman Catholic fellow countrymen. He did not see what harm the emancipation had done them, or how it led to agitation. He was not one of those who believed that repeal was a re ligious question. Whether they had already reaped the fruits of that measure or not—and he was of opinion that they had— they would yet know that the boon they had given to the Irish could not be forgotten ' and, sooner or later, they would reap sufficient advantage. The people of England were peculiarly jealous upon the subject of what he might call the " No Popery" city. The petitions presented to Parliament would show the feeling of the people ; but he thought it was the duty of the Government, under such circumstances, to temper the feeling, and to lay a broad foundation of justice, whereon to build a superstructure of good government.—( Cheers.) They should not yield to the pressure without; if they did, they would have yielded long ago to the Anti-Corn-law League; nor would they have resisted the repeal agitation, which, he was sorry his fellow-countrymen paid too much attention to. It was the duty of the Minister to temper such a feeling without laying aside his own intention, and a good intention of carrying out a beneficial measure. Honourable Members were pursuing a consistent course in opposing everything like concession to the Roman Catholics—they were afraid of Popery. He ( Lord Castlereagh) thought that the experience of twenty years, and the information received from those who would bring forward their conscientious opinions in a Court of Justice, would have removed such prejudices.--(Hear.) He and his colleague received a requisition, signed by several young gentlemen of property in the county of Down, which he had the honour to represent. It was signed by many of his earliest and best friends, who entreated himself and his colleague to give oppo sition to the Bill of the lion. Baronet. A letter from a friend of his characterised the measure as one calculated to bring down national judgments upon them. He, however, had a duty to perform, irrespective of his constituents, and if they thought he acted wrong they could visit him with the conse quences of their displeasure. He deeply regretted this agita tion which had sprung up in England, at the head of which were many great names. He saw Exeter Hall again in the throes of childbirth—( Laughter) —and he saw placards and processions parading the streets because they were going to give a few pounds, as his Hon. Friend had said; but he would say a sufficiently increased grant to the institution of Maynooth. He was not going to enter into a theolo gical discussion concerning the doctrines that were taught at Maynooth. He was not a Guy Fawkes or a Peter Dens ; but he would say that this grant was liberally proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, who was not slightly abused or criticised in that House for the measure which he had the manliness to bring forward. When he first saw the flirtation between the lion. Member for Oxford, the representative of the chivalry of his party and the beauty of Young England, he did not think that such an alliance would produce fruit—he was of opinion that it would be a spawn.—( Laughter.) He regretted to hear the caustic and sarcastic remarks of the Hon. Member fur Shrews bury, who he was sorry was not now in his place. He re gretted to perceive that his talents were used on the wrong side ; he wished that he was raising his banner cry for, instead of against, them. In contradiction to the Hon. Gentleman he should say that they owed Catholic Emancipation to the Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, and to his coadjutor in the House of Lords. He regretted to hear the im putations which were cast on the Right Hon. Baronet, and he could not help thinking that there was some remembrance, some deep sorrow hovering over the mind of the Hon. Gentleman, when he looked about b and did not see the Member for Dublin in his place. It had been said by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury that he should not have opposed this grant if it was brought in by the Members opposite. There was always an opinion, whether right or wrong, that Lord Melbourne's Government were more or less under the dictation or subservient to Mr. O'Connell. He (Lord C we a e at l l d ere h a a g y h e ) beendi d not carriedthinkb thatut for M r. the Chapels' Dissenters Bill O'Connell.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. D'lsraeli) said that he looked with distrust at any measure coming from the Government, as they were not the people t o g i ve i t, and he for one should oppose it. He could not, therefore' wonder at hi s (L or d Castlereagh ' s) tell i ng him that he sh ou ld be rather jealous from the othe r s id e o f the House, tur that it was throu g h a sp i r i t of conciliation'h e should uconcession el ithateve it would be introduced, but He u w nder th e di ctat i on o f M r. O'Connell and his p ar ty. sorry for d e t a i n i ng t h e House so long, but he th oug h t it ces sar f iyi,,e measure, and ho hoped as an I r i s h Mem ber, o Gentleman w ou ld go on ber ,toanadddtrruessstedthe that Housethe Righti app Hon.raval in the career which he had adopted—( Hear, hear)—and if by the dictation of any party he should be left in a minority, he felt convinced that he could assure them that there would be found many by his side who would cheer him and share his fall ; and who would support his measures whether he was on this side of the House or the other. He would conclude by referring to a sentence in a pamphlet, written by a gentleman ;n that House, which contained much better language than he could express, and which said that it would be very sanguine to ex pect that Ireland should be incorporated in feeling or in laws and for its continu . be a s ifere.ntAues Heti ears . .11 tikv,-4;o' r e on tinue the 4;1 it' I,to „a fixed and *rose of the grant 'he .rlii4kat consider the (11 ttb Alsektsfthe old one. But ":7,l:retested his p( • - eftiblistpent for of Ireland; 7r—.lW J col ..j. T 1114.1 S UN, LONIJON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 15, 1S15: with the rest of the empire, until they had laid a foundation I succeed in carrying his motion, then Fe (Sir broad and deep on which a superstructure of conciliation arid a l Charles Napier) would , support the measure of union' f genuine cordial feeling should he built. A Minister ' the Government.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He felt who would attempt that would be conscious of the great that in d lug this he se eule be giving offence to a great numb: r duly which he had performed, and would eiely the sympathy i of his constituency, who felt very strongly on this nuestion ; of a ll that matt wise and good, and his memory would be at- 1 but notwithstanding that, he would ever go straieenforward ie teneee with that favour which crowns the benefactor of his the support of every measure that he considered just, and file, country.—(Cheers.) .. and reasonable.—( Cheers. ) When he considered the present The O'CONOR DON said, that so cordially:did he agree state of Ireland (though, at present, there was no need to ap with the observations which came from the Noble Lord who hal prehend a war with America), yet, he would ask, was this just just sat down, that he brought down the pamphlet referred to the time to throw a firebrand into that country?—( Hear.) for the purpose of quoting the same language. It was said by an Since this measure had first been talked of as one that was in- Hon. Member that he wished that this should be dealt tended to be brought forward by the Government—whether with as an Irish question. If it were to he considered as an wisely or not, was not for him now to question—he would say Irish question, he believed that an immense majority of the that it had been looked forward to with so much anxiety, that Irish people would be fuund to vote in accordance with the the rejection of it now would have the effect of placing Ireland proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, lie was a nx i ous t o i n a worse p os ition than ever.—( Hear, hear.) He did con rise to answer a question proposed by the Honourable Member ceive that this country was bound by every tie to conciliate the for Shrewsbury, who called upon them to repudiate the mea- Irish people. He was not the man to encourage Continental sure proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. He (the O'Conor Catholic countries to excite Catholic Ireland against Protestant Don), for one, was disposed to accept cordially the proposition, England---(Hear)—but he would ask, would it not be wise not feeling, as he did, that it was one involving in itself the educe- to give the Irish people any excuse for joining tion of a portion of the Irish people, and enhanced as it was in any other counts y against this ?—( Hear, hear.) He had heard value by the manner in which it was introduced by the Right much from the Hon. Member for Oxford that he regretted to lion. Baronet. He said that it was to be received in three have heard ; but he would recommend that Hon. Member to ways :it was turned by the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury deliberate well upon the course he was pursuing, because Ire into that ridicule and sarcasm with which, in his opi- land, in time of peace, was not to be quieted bat by kindness nion, he was too conversant, but he did not for one and conciliation, and if she were not conciliated, in time of moment venture to grapple with the arguments made use of. war she might become dangerous.—( Hear, hear.) He might He frequently said " this is the question," but the question it- be told that it would be fully to attempt to invade Ireland ; but self he totally avoided. The que s tion w a s t his, what was to those who said so might be mistaken. He had heard of the he done with Maynooth? Was the grant to be discontinued, French Government sending out, enormous vessels to all part• was it to be continued as it then was, or was it to be in- of the world ; and let it not he forgotten that Ireland would at creased? Could it be discontinued under present circumstances, one time have been successfully invaded under Napoleon bud and the state of feeling in Ireland, where there existed s / for the disobedience of his admirals. He saw, by a French much dissatisfaction? 'Where was the Government that would paper he had received to-day, that several enormous ships had ' not remove one more element of dissatisfaction?—(Cheers. ) been built in that country, intended for foreign stations; but not There could no doubt exist in the mind of any one as to the having answered the purpose, they were about to be converted into success of this measure. Was there any principle against the steam war vessels, each containing 2,000 men, and well cal grant? If there were, in what did it consist? It appeared that culated for the service for which they were intended.—( Hear, the principle was against that which would be sufficient— hear.) On those grounds, then, he would say, make Ireland namely, 25,000/., but there was no principle violated in grant- happy and contented, and he would defy the world to pro ing 9,000/. The principle in both cases was the same, in his duce more brave and loyal subjects.—(Cheers.) If they were opinion. In 1808, there was an increase proposed by a Pro- treated in a contrary spirit, then it was impossible to say what testant Parliament, and yet no person accused them of yielding might be the result. Nothing was more likely than that a one principle which involved the p r i nc ipl es of the Protestant foreign Catholic nation should be roused against England ; Church. It was a principle recognized in all the colonies—in anti then if the Catholic people of Ireland, or a great portion of every one of them—( Hear, hear)—and was that princi- them should join that country, see what a position England pie to be objected to now in a case where Ireland was to be con- would be in by having her bast subjects severed from her by in cerned ?—(Cheers.) The interests of Ireland were as inti- justice and discontent.—(Cheers.) The proposition of the tnately connected with this country, as the interests which Government was no new question. The Legislature had were more distant. As it was already thought advisable that already established the precedent for voting a portion of the that grant should be continued in Ireland, so ought sufficient public money to the education of Roman Catholic priests, and, be. granted for the purposes for which it teas made. The therefore, it was only carrying out th a t p r i nc iple to increase question was, whether the professors received an amount ado- the amount.—( Hear.) He was surprised to hear the Hon. quate to their instructions, sufficient to induce them to speed Member for Oxford argue against this, for surely, if men the whole of their lives in teaching for the sum of 93/. a year. were well educated, it would be much more easy for them There was one reason put forth for opposing it, which was the to see into the true lights of the Gospel, than if they were principle of those who would object to all establishments what- badly educated.—(C'heers. ) This country had been trying for ever. How was it that their indignation was only called forth the last three hundred years to make Ireland a Protestant when Ireland was brought under their consideration ? When nation—(Cheers)—and as they had not succeeded, now let it was proposed to give anything to Ireland, then came forth them try to conciliate them by making them better Catholics. that which would, at the other side of the water, be considered —(Cheers. 1 He did think that this was the first step towards an anti-Irish feeling—( Hear, hear)—and which he regretted an act of justice towards the Irish people, and coming from because lie wished to see both countries on the best terms. Ile an opposition Government, call it what they would. Conserve thought that it ought not to be considered an ecclesiastical en• tive or Tory, he was glad to see it. It did them great credit, dowment, but an educational endowment. It ought not to be and he would rive it his strongest and warmest support. considered as a junction with the State, for he believed that a Mr. S. O'BRIEN then wise to address the House. The great many Irish Roman Catholics would object to it, but they question of the Endowment of the Irish Church could not now would not object to a grant tothat College which would enable the be passed by ; it must now be stated in what manner the members of that College to discharge the duties they had toper. Catholic clergy were to be paid, and from what fund. As an form with advantage to the country. The Member for Newcastle isolated question, he considered the present measure anything objected seemingly to the grant on the ground that the profes- but a boon. The worst kind of education was that which sors were incompetent to teach, and that they were men of no taught its pupils that which could do them no good. From education. He instanced the evidence of Dr. Cullen, to the what had already taken place, he could only consider the present effect that he did not know of the existence of the sixth book of as part of a great measure. There was no one more anxious Euclid. Euclid was not the book taught at Maynooth, but to act straightforward than himself. He believed that the there was a system used there of the science as it was Noble Lore the Member for London, if he had brougl.t for taught by the Abb4 Dare, and which was laid down ward this measure, he would have been justified in doing so, by French mathematicians of the highest eminence. and would not have violated any principle he had hitherto pro. The substance of his (the O'Conor Don's) information fessesi ; but could that he said of the Right Hon. Baronet?— was to the effect, that this man so vilified, so misrepre- ( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark sented, so stigmatized, and branded as ignorant, was one had stated that England and Scotland were against the me:s of the most distinguished men in the literary and sure. He might with eq ial truth have stated that the province scientific world in this day. He was eminent by his of Ulster was also against it.—(Hear. ) For his own par', he researches in the phenomena of galvanism and electricity, must confess, after giving the measure the best consideration anti his name was widely known and appreciated. The Hr n . in his power, he could not give his consent to it He would Memb r for Newcastle had referred to the communications ask this question, supposing the Noble Lord, the Member fot which had passed between the Court of Rome and the Irish London, sitting on that side of the House, had brought for- Catholic ecclesiastics. He (the O'Conor Don) might be al- ward the measure, would it have received the sanction of that lowed to make one short observation upon that subject. He House? and would those who now sit on the Ministerial would merely say that those hulls, no matter how numerous benches, if they had supported it, at a new election have they were, were of no validity in temporal or civil matters ; come back with the majority they now had ?—( Cheers. ) and he would, with the permission of the House, exemplify He found in the course that the Right Hon. Member for this very shortly. When this country was threatened by the Newark had pursued, a warrant for the course he felt bound Court of Spain, and the formidable Armada was ap- to adopt ; he believed that the reasons that hail been urged proaching its shores, then, notwithstanding the bulls in favour of the Bill were extremely erroneous, and not at promulgated by the Pope, the Roman Catholics in all calcu'ated to carry it into effect. They might disguise it this country offered to serve in the foremost ranks, as they would, but there was an allegiance in the Catholic for her whom they declared to be their rightful ant priests to a Foreign Power, that would ultimately beloved Queen. The subjects of Ireland could not be loyal to be dangerous to this country. He did not blame the Govern her Majesty without, at the same time, being loyal to her sub- ment for bringing forward this measure, he did not blame the ject3. It was said that her Majesty intended to visit Ireland Right Hors. Baronet for its introduction, nor did he think he this year. He hoped it might be so. Englishmen had the was to be charged with inconsistency in bringing it forward; advantage of her residence among them. Scotland he, however, could not give his support to a measure which he had been honoured by her visits ; and now Le considered tended to shake confidence in public men.—( Hear.) trusted that Ireland would be similarly honoured, and He believed that upon this subject there was out of doors a certain he was that there she wou'd be enthusiastically general distrust of that House, which he would be the last welcomed. Some Hon. Gentleman hail said that they post- party to lend himself to increase. For these reasons he could poned Catholic questions until their boons were valueless, for not support the motion. the grants had become a necessity, and the same lion. At least twenty Members rose to address the House, but the Members again came forward and questioned the Right Hon. Speaker called upon Baronet in such a guise that it was quite impossible for hint Mr. WYNNE, who said that the Hon. Member for Nor to answer them. The questions answered themselves. He thampton had alluded to the names Whig and Tory, contend was glad, however, to find that, on his side of the House, the ing that the principles of each party had changed of late years. Noble Lord the Member for London (Lord John Russell ), Now he was one who had never assumed the name of Tory. If forgetful of his pary feeling. and, on the o th er s id e , he had done so, he should say that the course of events of the last the Right Honourable Baronet, both concurring i n carr yi ng forty or fifty years, during which he had been in Parliament, out this measure of justice towards Ireland. He would give had been sufficient to convince him that that , party had been his cordial support to the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet. mistaken.—( Cheers.) He had seen the Whigs moving the Mr. LEFROY would give his vote against the second read- repeal of the Septennial Act, and the Tories resisting it. Eli ing of this measure, and lie was anxious to do s o i n a manner had seen on the occasion of the Regency Bill the Tories main the least calculated to give offence to the Right Hon. Baronet, taining the right of that House to provide absolutely for the or to any other Hon. Member. He was the more anxious t o care of the Government, and the Whigs, on the other hand, explain his reasons, as on this question he should be opposing contending for the right of the heir apparent to do so. It had a Ministry whose general line of policy he had supported. Ile been said that this Bill, which was before the House, was in gave full credit to the Right Hon. Baronet for his desire to ad- consistent with the course which had hitherto been adopted by vance the best interests of the country, but in this case h e the Tory party. Was it not consistent with the course adopted thought he was opposed to the generally expressed opinion by the Right Hon. Gentleman in that House? Was it not of the entire country.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") consistent with the course adopted during the whole of his po- The argument advanced by the Right Hon. Baronet seemed to litical life by the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir J. Graham) him ( Mr. Lefroy) particularly strange. Ho argued that, be- who sat near him? Was it not consistent with the course cause the present system worked badly in the College of May- adopted by the Noble Lord who had lately left that House that during the forty or fifty years which he nooth, they should try what the mere effect of pounds, still- ( Lord Stanley)? With respect to himself (Mr. Wynne) he lings, and pence could do. He (Mr. Lefroy) objected to was proud to say, this grant on two grounds ; the first, because it interfered with had had a seat in Parliament, he had uniforml y su pp orted mea the theory and practice of their present Constitution ; and lie sures of this character.—(Cheers.) He remembered when objected to it on a religious ground, although he did not mean this question was first debated in that House, in to discuss this as a religious question. He would put it to 1807 or 1808, that the grant to the College of Maynooth was any man whether this grant to a Roman Catholic church was supported with the view of drawing close the connexion of not against both the spirit and the letter of the Protestant this country with Ireland. At that time they knew that Constitution? Whether it was not an express violation of Rounaparte had tried, by er every temptation, to induce the Ca the declaration signed by the Sovereign of these realms? tholic pri ests to go ov to France. He offered to found The lion. Member for Newark had spoken very plausibly in schools and institutions for them, but the offer was refused, and favour of this measure. The Right Hon Gentleman had re- refused most faithfully and generously. He should mention corded his opinions upon the same subject, and it was but fair that he had been much surprised at hearing, through this de that the Members of that House should compare the two opt- bate, Mr. Burke quoted as an authority against such a measure pions. (The Hon. Member then quoted from Mr. Gladstone's as this, which had been proposed by the present Government. pamphlet, in which he strongly objected to the grant to Only two sentences had r been qu oted, from th e o pi n i ons o f Maynooth.) He should oppose the second reading of this Mr. B urke, in p m oof of I . Burke's opinio ns b e i ng aga i nst t h e measure. grant to Maynooth. Instead of these t wo sentences lie (Mr. Col. T. WOOD said that he perfectly concurred in thebulk of Mr. Burke's Hear, hear.) lie propriety of the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Baro- writings, for there it wo uld have b een found that the institu net, and he would state the grounds on which he intended tion of Maynoooth was one which had been strongly Wynne) would have referred to the to vote for it. The Hen. Member who had last spoken, had founded his opposition upon a religious principle. (III) Wynne) recollec ted that Lord Fitz% 'lF wh en But iam, But he did not agree with Hon. Members that this measure Lord-Lieutenant of Irelan d, recommended from the throne the Maynnoth ; and his successor, by that great man( would be an invasion or the rights of the Church of England. endowment of I . se sor, Lord Camden, Let it be recollected that, by the Emancipation Act, every dwelt, in his speech at t he d. c o lo of of the session, on the fact of subject of the kingdom, to whatever creed belonging, io the the College. He dwelt upon placed on terms of equality with his fellow man, in regard to this fact not as having laid foundation -stone, by merely with the enjoyment of civil rights.—(Hear, hear.) It was true smearing the stone over e e eove m ortar, but as showing a dispo that that measure made an exception in favour of the Pro- sition, on the part of t , h c sliame we nt, rvn to sup pert and cherish his having laid the foule a was testant religion, so far as the succession to the English Crown ; such an institution. 1h ' s taken up by the party ' but, while the English monarchs would be certain to uphold to which the lion. Gentleman (Mr _ • O Brien) belonged ; by the dignity of the English Crown, the civil rights of the Mr. Pi tt, b y Lord Castlereag h, and by L or d C ornwall i s. M r. subjects should not be lost sight of.—( Hear, hear.) It was Pitt ha d stated in that House, t hat the establishment of May upon those grounds that he felt disposed to give his vote in nooth would be the means of uniting the two coun favour of the measure.—( Cheers. ) He would also give his tries. In considering this question, h e (M r. Wynn) did v.tte in favour of it, because he did think the Government of not look to what was the in te rest of th e country f i fty years this country were bound to provide a suitable education out ago , but what was the interest of the cou n t ry at t h e present of the revenues of the State for the Irish people.—( Cheers. ) time. He felt that this Rill wou ld confer great benefit upon Let it be recollected that the Roman Catholic priests ware the the country to which it w as intended t o app l y. Thi s Bi ll instructors of the Rowan Catholic people of Ireland ; that the wou ld, to a certain extent, do away t. with the voluntary system, people were necessarily thrown upon their clergy for advice and on tha t g round he supported i The effect of the volun and counsel, when they had none else to look to in a country tart' system was to make the anest pr iests the f o ll owers i nstea d of long known as suffering from an absentee proprietary.— the leaders of th e people. W h ere ,lewas supported its (Cheers.) In addition to this, let it be also borne in mind the cont r ibu tion from the parish, there would be a strong that hitherto the Catholic people of Ireland not only supported temptation for him not to r u n counter to the wi s h es o f th e their own clergy, but were compelled by law to support the parishioners. H e remem bered_ the case of a p r i es t w h o , ministers of a religion which was not the religion of the ma- having denounced from the altar certain parties who were the jority of the Irish people.—(Cheers.) He would contend for leaders of some public disturbance, was deprived of his usual it dist this was a measure of justice that should of necessity contributions. He (-Mr • Wynne) thought that his Right have followed a measure of last session—he meant the Catholic lion. Friend was entitled to great credit for the manly and Bequests Act, and one which would tend more to promote the courageous manner in which he had brought forward this peace and welfare of Ireland, than any ether measure th at measure, and he her ; ed, and had the fullest confide nce , t h at could possibly be introduced.—( Hear, hear.) He would sup- he would carry it to a successful termination.—(Cheers. ) port this measure because it showed that some real attention Mr. COWPER, who was very indistinctly heard in the gal was devoted to the state of Ireland by the Governm en t since lery, said he was anxious to state the grounds on which h e sup _ they came into office ; and it should be admitted that the state ported this measure. He thought that all the objections which of that country for the past two years was unparalleled i n t h e had been urged to it had centred in religious grounds. H e history of civilization. He regretted that the Roman Catholic thought that any other objection which might be urged was priests should have taken part in the great p o liti ca l hardly worth debating, and he was confirmed in this view by t h e movement to which he alluded ; but he did not speech of the Hon.:Member for Newcastle ( Mr. Colquhoun). lie mean to say it was the speeches delivered at ( Mr. Cowper) agreed both with the Hon. Baronet the Member their meetings, so much as the whole movement for Oxford and the Hon. Member for Kent, in their opinions itself that made an impression upon the minds of the people.— with respect to Protestantism. But, although he agreed with a (Hear, hear.) Now he would ask the house, in what manner great portion of their premises, ho could net come to the same would they be prepared to meet the agitation again, should it conclu s ion whic h the y had done. Ile believed that the greatest be renewed? p repared they prepared to meet it by coercion and possible blessing had flowed on this country from Protestantism, martial law, or by means of conciliation ?--( Hear, hear.) H e and nothing wou'd grieve him more than that Protestantism would say they should meet it by conciliation alone ; fer if they should be endangered. Protestantism gave the right of private tried coercion, and succeeded by that in promoting a temporary judgment, allowed the supremacy of individual conscience, and peace, still they would find at the end that conciliation alone toleration for those who differed from it. Still l h es ofe did not wo uld do.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) He felt pain at think that the present Bill would affe ct the pi incip Pro• being compelled to differ upon this question from many for testantism. The ground upon which the Hon. Baronet the Mem whom he entertained the highest esteem ; but still h e would beg for Oxf o rd resi s t e d thi s Bill was that we ought not to say that if it had the effect of' conciliating Ireland he would nut vote any money in support of religious op in ions har regret it.— Cheers from the Opposition.) If this measure which we be believed to be erroneous.--( Hear/ .) should have the effect of invalidating the claims or stabilit y o f There were, i n d ee d, A c t s of p ar li a ment to be found in the the Established Church in Ireland, lie would rather resign hi s time of Henry VIII, Edward. VI., and Elizabeth, in which seat into the hands of those who had honoured him witlitheir one religion was called false and another true ; and if, as was confidence, than vote for it ; but he could not see how the en- stated in an Act of Parliament in the reign of Queen Mary, dowment by the State of the Roman Catholic Church in Ire- the present measure stated that this grant to Maynooth was land could have such an effeetww(Loud„cheersi) In fact, given for the maintenance of teaching of truth, he would in Ireland was the only part of the wen d in which it was that case resist it to the utmost—he would r ather peril his life found, that two Churches of opposite c r eeds could not exist in than vote for it.—( Hear, hear.) But as this measure harmony and peace with each other.—( Hear.) Mi g ht th ey, did not state that it was to support the truth that the then, not hope that the time was no t f ar di s tant w h en th ey grant was to be given, and as there was nothing in should see as happy a state of things in Ireland, and was it not the Bill to show that the doctrines taught at Maynooth the duty of the State to endeavour to achieve it ?—( Cheers were erroneous, there was no reason to prevent him from from the Opposition.) It had been said that by this measure voting for it. Another argument urged against t.,e measure the Government would be only arming the Roman C a th o li c was that it w as a violation of the conscience of Protestants to priests of Ireland with new w eapons aga i ns t the Protestant contribute money to maintain what was considered error by Church ; let them rather hope these clergymen would use their them ; but it was not altogether true that Protestants paid the newly-acquired power in furtherance of renewed e ff or t s a t th e money, for Roman Catholics as well as Protestants contributed suppression of crime and vice.—(Loud cheers.) The Ho- to the consolidated fund. Besides he thought the Protestants neurable Member then sat down, whereupon, as upon every of England owed some comp ensa ti o n to the Roman Cat holics similar occasion during th e evenin g , at least twent y Members of Ireland for the manner in which they treated their religion. rose at once, each endeavouring to catch the Speaker's eye, but It ought not to be forgotten in those discussions that they never Sir C. NAPIER having succeeded, he said he would not made any setious efforts to convert the Irish Roman Catholics, have presumed to have taken any part in the discussion this for they never preach e d t h e G ospe l to them in their native evening, but that he wished to set himself right with his con- tongue. And Dr. King, Archbishop of Dublin, protested in s tit u ents, under all the circumstances, for giving his vo te in convocation assainst th e con duct of Parliam ent on th is favour of this measure.—( Hear, hear.) He regretted that his ground. Ile did not think it would be much service Hon. Friend, the Member for Sheffield, had not deemed it teProtestaniem that it adopted the presen t mode of resisting with t h i s expedient to persevere his motion, and take a clear vote grant. He thou g ht that Protestants of fine themselves to and not interfere the House upon it, for ho knew many Hon. Members who argument and persuasion, . Ire- to have supported him, in opposition to what they conceiv conceived wit h a measure which was calculated to do justice to Ire to be an obnoxious measure. However, he had perhaps, after lan d.-_( Hear, hear.) all, acted a discreet part in postponing it ; and when he Mr. GREGORY did not t hi n k that the present m easure did bring it forward, he (Sir C. Napier) hoped to see him do demanded. had been discussed as fully as one of such importance . ~ . out so in a way that would not cause the motion to be thrown He wished Hen. Gentlemen weuld dismiss theoretical views altogether. He (Sir C. Napier) also regretted that the , fr om t h e ir consideration, and look at the present me asure, not forms of the House would not permit him to bring forward a in an absolute, but a relative, point of view, and to t he_ effects more moderate amendment than that of the Hon. Member for which were likely to arise from it. lie thought. that the pre. Sheffield, in the event of his failure, for, if they did, he sent measure, like the Dissenters' Chapels Bill and the Cheri would move that it should be an instruction to the Committee, table Bequests Act, would have the effect of still more weaken that in any Protestant arish in Ireland where it should appea r ing, the Protestant e s t a bli s h ment i n that country.--( Hear, that the re were only fo p ur, or less than four, Protestants, that hear.) He doubted whether the measure would have all the income and emoluments arising from such parishes the result whi ch was anti c ip ated from it, of should be appli e d to a fund for the maintenance of the Roman smoothing the angry feelings of the Roman Catholics of Ire- Catholic College of we land towards this cou n t r y. li e did believe that , as the h uman if aynooth—(Hear, hear . ) However, 1 the Honourable Member for Sheffield should not ' mind became more elevated by education, it also became less ardent and aspiring. 1-1, did not think that, when the Roman Catholic priesthood were better educated, they would ks more likely to give their acqueseence to tnc• possession of half a mil lion by the Protestaut clergy, while they themselves got n thing. Ho expected to hear from the Right lion. Gentleman the Member fur Newark (Me. Gladstone) some powerful argu ments on this subject, hut though he gave him credit for the motives which actuated him, he cunfesse.i he was disappointed at the result of his speech. He was afraid that, if this mea sure passed, others still more alarming would follow ; and if so, he believed that the volumes episcopari of the Irish Roman Catholic clergy would be converted, by an easy alteration, into volumes episcopari.—(Hear, hear.) If they endowed Maynooth, all the Dissenters of the country would have equal claims upon their liberality. They had cast aside the principle, and could only refuse them on the shifting grounds of expediency. But the Right Hon. Baronet should bring forward proofs that the present measure was expedient, an.l then he was bound to show that the argument of ex pediency was a justifiable one. The Right Honourable Baronet should also clearly define the length to which he meant to go in concessions of this nature—whether the Nlaynooth grant was to stand alone or be accompanied by other such concessions. After the manner in which the measure had been received by Mr. O'Connell, the organ of the people of Ireland, he could not wonder that the people of England were displeased at it. That Hon. Gen tleman saint it had been extorted by agitation, and as long as the Established Church remained in Ireland, there would be no cessation of that agitation. The Protestants abstained from agitating repeal solely because of their love of the Established Church ; but if once this bulwark were overthrown, English sway over Ireland would be uncertain and precarious. The Hon. Member concluded by saying he would oppose the Gentleman to use, when in oppposition, passions with which he had not the slightest sympathy, and prejudices which he disavowed.—( Rene wed cheering.) When a change a salutary change—took place, his former coadjutors were despised (Cheers) his supporters were disregarded ( Cheers)—and the ladder by which he had risen to power was thrown down.—( Great cheering.) That has been the course of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Cheers.) I will not now go over the events of eighteen years. I will not say what occurrel in 1827 or 1829.—(Great cheering.) I will only say that one such change was enough for one such Minister.— (Continued cheeering.) He and those with whom he acts return again to that course.—( Hear, hear.) I will not now go into the circumstances, much as I regret them, by which the Government of Lord Melbourne was overthrown. 1 will only ask, was there ever a single body of men who relied on the Right Hon. Baronet whom he has not again and again bitterly disappointed ?—(Cries of "No, no," and cheers.) Well, then, I leave the management of this quest ion to the landed gentry. —(Cheers, and loud laughter.) I must refer however to this, that the clamour which did the most injury to the G. vernment of Lord Melbourne was the cry of " No Popery."—( Cheers.) Now, what is the statement we hear to-night from the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Donegal, that he supports the measure upon principle, but does any man believe that if my Noble Friend beside me had brought in this Bill, it would not be opposed by the whole of that Honourable Gentleman's part y ?—( Loud cheers.) Four years ago a very different Bill was brought in, the ob ject of which was to disfranchise the Catholics of Ireland by tens of thousands, but the party which then supported the Right Hon. Gentleman represented the Bill as calculated to do the greatest good, and to purge the House of Commons of the minions of Popery.—(Laughter.) We asked you to wait— to let it go to the next session. No, no time must be lost; the thing must be done immediately. The change took place. You have now been four years in power—you could have passed the Bill, if you pleased, and when you pleased. Where is it now ? It is flung away—it is positively pronounced by its author to be so destructive to the representative system that no Government could venture to carry it on.—(Cheers. ) What have you given instead? A Bill for the endowment of Maynooth. —( Great cheering.) Did any one ever see such a tour of legerdemain?—( Cheers and laughter.) You imposed on the honest, hot-headed Protestants; they looked on your Bill with delight, and see what you have given in its place.—( Cheers. ) Do you wonder, then, at the clamour that deafens you ? (Cheers. ) Do you wonder that petitions come upon the table as thick as snow-storins.—(Cheers. ) Is it a wonder when for the very measures of concessi n which you opposed when we were in office, you now whip your unwilling followers to the vote.—(Cheers and laughter.) Is it any wonder that those ferocious spirits whom you roused to harrass us should now torment yourselves ?—(Cries of " Hear, hear. ) Doyen wonder that Exeter Hall sets up its bray—(Laughter)— and that Mr. M'Neil proclaims that the priests of Baal are feasted at the table of Jezebel?—( Great sheering and laughter. ) If you thought that, having raised the spirit of religious ani mosity, you could lay it as speedily as you raised it, you will be doomed—the day of reckoning m •st still come, and that day has now come. The Rlght Hon. Baronet, as a public man, is arraigned before the House and the country, to show us some real principle with respect to Irish affairs as hich has guided you in office and opposition. Show us how, if you are honest in 1845, you could have been honest in 1841. Ex plain to us h iw after, when out of office, you goaded Ireland into madness, in order to ingratiate yourselves with England, you now in place turn round and throw England into a flame, in order to ingratiate yourselves with Ireland. Let es hear some argument showing to us that, as a Minister, you are entitled to support which will net equally show that you were the most factious and unprincipled Opposition that ever this country produced. These are my opinions respecting the conduct of Ministers. But am I, therefore, to answer the ap peal of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, and vote against this Bill? Not so. I believe both the Bill and the Minister to be in our hands. The inconsistency of the Minister has certainly produced mischief, but will that mischief be lessened if incon sistency is to be displayed on this side of the House? I admit that this Bill in itself—and the circumstances under which it is brought in by the Tories, or whatever they call themselves— will produce many evils, but these evils would, in my opinion, be doubled, if it were to be rejected by the Whigs, and, there fore, it seems to me it would turn the opinion of this House into ene vast shipwreck, as well as the whole public character of England. It has, therefore, induced me to restrain my feelings, and I have determined to give to this Bill through all its stages my most steady support, and to every Bill coming from the Government which may appear to me likely to make Great Britain and Ireland a freely united kingdom. I give such support regardless of all obloquy and at the risk of losing my seat in Parliament. The obloquy so raised I shall look upon aE glory. My seat in Parliament I shall resign, and consider it no ignominious tender, feeling as sured that I could never lose it in a more honourable cause. —( The Hon. Member resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.) Mr. SHAW confessed that he did not sufficiently diff r from the latter part of the observations made by the Right Hun. Gentlemsn as to render it necessary for him to trouble the House with any lengthened reply to them.— ( Hess, hear.) He need not, therefore, assure the House that it was his pain ful duty to oppose those with whom he had all along co-ope rated. It was truly painful to him to do so, but if he were net to support the amendment of the Hon. Member for Newcastle, he should be acting contrary to the dictates of his own con science. He was in Ireland when a copy of this Bill, and the speech of his Right Hon. Friend the First Minister of the Crown, was received, and he had no recollection of anything having given more pain—such deep distress to the Protestants of Ireland—as did both the Bill and the speech. In using the term Protestants he did not mean the men to whom the Right Hon. Gentleman had just alluded, and whose petition was presented the other night by the Honourable Mem ber for Knaresborough. He disapproved of their language, nor did he represent their sentiments, but he spoke of calm, dispassionate, anal reasonable men, many of whom had all their lives been friends to the political equality of their Roman Catholic brethren. Like the Hon. Member for Newark, they looked upon this grant as the first religious endowment of the sort since the revocation of the Roman Ca tholic establishment in connexion with the State. They re garded it as a clear indication that henceforward Ireland was not to be treated as an integral portion of the United Kingdom.— ( Laughter.) They regarded it as the heaviest blow that had ever been struck either by foe or by friend to the Established Church of Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh first attacked the arguments of those who did not object to the grant, but objected to its increase. He (Mr. Shaw) was one of those. Hitherto he had looked upon the grant with the greatest possible indifference. He thought it a doubtful policy to continue it, but he also felt it was impos sible to to take it away without bringing upon many indivi duals whose support depended on it, very great pecuniary em barrassment. He however agreed with the Hon. Member for Newark, that no compact existed upon this subject, but he altogether differed from those who said there was no distinc tion between the proposed and the past grant. On the contrary, there was an obvious distinction. The Right Hon. Gen lemon next alluded to the objections of those who opposed the grant on the ground of religion. Now, he would at once declare, that he totally repudiated the doctrine of the Honourable and Learned Member for Bath, because he did not think it was just or right to say Parliament or the country could make no dis tinction between two religions. True, they did not make any practical distinction, but unless they admitted the power of man to make some distinction latitudinarianism would usurp the place of the real and established religion.—( Hear, hear. ) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that he treated that argument with contempt. It might be so. They had the highest authority for saying that it was not to the scribe or the disputant of this world that these things were made plain ; but this he might say, that it was sufficiently intelligent to the moral sense of the community that their religious feeling was violated. When he heard Englishmen at this time of the day saying that there was no difference between truth and religion, he would ask why was it part of the Constitution that the reigning Sovereign of this realm must be a Protestant ? Why was it that Protestantism was by law established in every por tion of the empire? The Hon. Member for Newark let fall an expression the other night, that he could not understand what was indicated by the term Protestantism, and that there were many who repudiated that term. He ( Air. Shaw) would not enter into any logical arguments with his Honourable Friend the Member for Newark, but he thanked God that the name of Protestantism was yet intelligible to the understanding and dear to the hearts of Englishmen.—( Hear, hear)—and whe ther it be through the Romanism of ecclesiastics or the want of fixed principles on the part of their political leaders, used for the purpose of alienating the affections of the people of Eng land from the Church, and shaking their confidence in the Government, they would forget the true meaning and forsake the cause of Protestantism, then in his soul he believed that the days of England as a nation would be numbered, and the glories of this country departed for ever. Though they should not, for Christianity sake, persecute for conscience sake, on the other .hand they should not encourage that which they believed to be erroneous. He should make no objection now, if this Bill did no more than relax the statute of mortmain. And, after all, it was only a compact which was entered into by an Irish Parliament ; and never tia now had a national inconsistency been committed by the English Government—he must also say, a national sin—of endowing a Catholic seminary, for the sole exclusive purpose of teaching the Roman Catholic religion. An analogy had been attempted, by taking the case of a Protestant landlord and a Roman Catholic tenant. He (Mr. Shaw) was of opinion that a Protestant landed proprietor should give the utmost facility to his Roman Catholic tenant, for the free exercise of his owes religion, but he was not bound to give direct en couragement to that which he believed to lie contradictory. He thought he saw the Member for Roscommon in his place ; they both differed in religion and politics, but there was no person in whose hands he would more readily place his ho nour or his life. On a question of religion, however, he would not deprive him of a single right which he ( Mr. Shaw) him self possessed. He (the Member for Roscommon) said that they should treat the Roman Catholics as they themselves would desire to be treated, but he did not think that it would increase their friendship if one of them gave direct encourage ment to the religion of the other, because it would show great inconsistency and insincerity in his conduct. The first prin ciple which was violated was this, that while they were increasing funds for the aid of the Roman Catholic religion, they were diminishing the funds for the education of the Protestants, by making a transfer of the rates to the incomes of the clergymen. While they were increasing the buildings of the College of Maynooth, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were refusing to repair the churches for want of funds. These things were not unobserved, and could not be unfelt ; for his own part, he was at a loss to know what had been the inducement which had led her Majesty's Government so to do violence to the feelings of thousands and tens of thousands who sign the petitions which nightly crowded the table against the Bill. He was sorry to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh describe them as mere paper and parchment. The strong feel ing of England and Scotland was opposed to this measure. The Hon. Member the Secretary for Ireland stated that there were very few petitions from Ireland. But of all the petitions which did come from Ireland, only one which was in favour of the Hill was that alluded to by his Hon. Friend opposite, the Member for Perth, which came from a congregation of Dis senters, as a kind of token of gratitude to the Right Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the quota tions made by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark from the speech of Mr. O'Connell—" Agitation, I thank you ; the Conciliation-hall is obliged to you. Repeal and Maynooth ought to pray for you." The Hon. Gentleman said that this measure was chiefly important on account of' the principles which it involved. He was of the same opinion. It had been very strongly asserted en the other side of the House, but it was very faintly shadowed forth on the part of her Majesty's Ministers, who had gone too far, or not far enough. They had excited the fears and the Protestants of Ireland, which they could not easily appease, and they had excited the hopes of the Roman Catholics with this Bill, which he did not believe they intended to realise. Before he sat down, there was one other point to which he would wish to advert. He would wish to remind the House and the Government that they were now touching on very tender and dangerous ground.—( Hear.) There were very few thinking men connected with Ireland, whatever their political opinions might be, who did r,ot labour under the impression that their country had long been treated more as a colonial de pendency than as an integral portion of the British empire.— ( Hear, and cheers from the Opposition.) So convinces! were they of this fact, that they were all compelled to admit that " Divide et Impere" had been the maxim by which they had long been governed.—(Cheers.) Yes, party against party had been too long the only rule in that country.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) The only rule then understood in variably was, the party of the Government against its oppo nents ; and its present state did not much differ, because it was now the Government party so divided from side to side that it might be called the Government divided against itself.— measure. Mr. NI ACAULAY rose and said—Sir, I have no intention to fallow the Hon. Gentleman who last sat down into the dis cussion of an amendment which really has nothing to do with the subject under the consideration of the House.—(flear.) Whenever my Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield thinks it expedient to propose to us his motion on the subject which he has so often introduced to the notice of the House, I may per haps require the indulgence of the House whilst I offer my opi nions. At present it is sufficient for me to explain my vote on the second reading of this Bill, and I think I cannot do better than to review, as rapidly as I can, the objections which have been urged in and out of this House against them. I think these objections for the greater part may be ranged under three distinct classes. In the first place, a large body of persons who it would seem did not until now object to the grant to Maynooth, object to the proposed increase. There is a second class, a large and re spectable body, who object to any grant whatsoever. They op pose the grant as well as the increase. They conceive that we are not justified as individuals or a Government in supporting the Pill. I must say that my opinion is, that they who voted for the grant of 9,0001., are hound to vote for the higher grant of 26,000/., and I shall be surprised, though it may not be in keeping with Parliamentary tactics, that those who vote for the 9,0001. this year should vote against it next. To the principle of any public erant I do most decidedly object, but I cannot understand on what principle they act who, while voting for the 9,0d0/., object to any increase of that grant for the sake of rectifying the errors of which they complain. They may object to the claim of the Catholic Church, as be ing a Church teaching a system of error, but I cannot understand how they can object to an increase of the grant which Parliament has yearly voted for the imperfect development of a principle which that same Parliament has year by year allowed and advocated. You iney condemn that establishment as teaching errors, but if you have once voted for its support, you cannot at least condemn its rites as superstitious.—( Hear, hear. ) You may shrink from upholding Maynooth in all its ancient splendour, but if you do so, you are at least bound to provide it with the means of carrying that splendour into effective exercise.—( Hear, hear.) You must not give to the able and effective minister of truth, that which you would be ashamed to offer to your groom. You are now called upon to make a grant which is worse than that which you give to the Irish common soldier. You expect to have your homestead calm, and vet you are anxious that the pigs should rejoice in their stye. If you do really desire to do good to the Catholic Church, why not do so effectually—why question the propriety of giving 26,000/. when you have al ready given 9,900/. for the same object ? If you are to sup port the Roman Catholic establishment respectably, at least give them the means of obtaining that respectability without ing dependent on your will or the caprice of a Government, and if the matter is important, it is worthy of immediate and instant consideration. Do you expect that a religion like this is to be counted as a matter of course? Do you think that this is to move as a matter of course? Do you think that this high and holy work is tr be promoted as a matter of duty—the cultivation of this 20,000 individuals? You have your noble cathedrals and lofty windows, your stained glass and all your affluent appliances, to make your religion honour able at present, and useful for the future. I have no desire to restrict the principle of endowing established communities, and therefore it is that I support a Bill which, like this, is most likely to secure the welfare of the lower classes. It is well known that the conduct of the universities in this country is most likely to excite the sense of injustice with which the servitors of Oxford and the sizars of Cambridge are implicated. You have your Margaret of Anjou, your Margaret of Rich mond; you have your founders of colleges ; and what a result do you arrive at? You come to the end of the story ; you arrive at the conclusion that all your royal colleges have to be supported on the principle of Dotheboys Hall. There was, it is true, a con tract with the Irish Parlament, but how was that contract ever fulfilled? By a disregard of all principle, a shirking of all obligation, anti an utter contempt for equity and truth. There are some who object to the grant to Maynooth, on the principle that it is entirely needless, from its entire exoneration from all claims of social and civil polity. To these I will only say, what is the difference between 9,009/. a-year arid 26,000/ ? I must come to the point as to what doctrines will be preached by the Church of Rome, and I am satisfied that a charge will be made upon ter that she teaches error. If she does teach sueh errors it is plainly evident that those errors are the result of the system which has in this country been imposed upon her ; and it should further be remembered that in the inculcation of truth there is an obligation, in sonic instances, far above the law, and that inculcation would lead every one to appreciate his position in the social circle, and enable him to arrive at a point, if he could arrive at all, in which his doubts should be resolved and his hesitation be con cluded. You havehcard something of Church extension, and while I desire to see that extension promulgated to its utmost limits, I at the same time repudiate whatever errors there may be in the Church of Rome, and acknowledge my fealty to what I conceive to be the despotic Government of the Church of England. Yet while acknowledging this despotic govern ment, I cannot, at the same time, appeal against those powers which would render any Government the conservators of public morals. With respect to the errors of the Church of Reme, I will beg to say that I prefer that there should be the religion of the Church of Rome rather than no religion at all, and I think that while that religion is acknowledged, it is a duty of the State to support it in its integrity. Well, then, what arc you to do which may conduce to their religious benefit ? Will any man, after the last twenty years only of experience, think, that by keeping away this grant, you will give an impulse to the Protestant religion ? If any man thinks so, I think he ought to vote against the present mea sure.—( Hear.) But I do not think so.—(Cheers.) The considerations which I have stated satisfy me ; and, although ni propagate error is not my wish, what I say is, that I think it better that Christianity with any form is better than the en tire absence of religious instruction.—( Hear, hear.) Although I do not approve of that form, which has a strong influence upon the people of Ireland, yet I think that if we cannot in any other way provide for the religious instruction of that people, it is better to confer upon them this boon, even in spite of the error.—( Cheers.) I think that there is great force in the argument against the State endowment of the Church of Rome. Yet I think that if that is to be taken as a general rule, the argument in favour of the voluntary system does apply to this case, which ought to be an exception.— (Cheers.) For in that island, with a population of eight millions, a Church with a population of little more than 800,000, possesses a million of revenue—the income of its archbishops alone exceeding 70,0001.—( Hear, hear.) You have at the same time, in the north of Ireland, an endowment in another form.—( Hear, hear.) But you have in the back ground, four-fifths of the population, without any assistance from the State—( Hear, hear)—and theirs is the religion for which all the original endowments were intended.—(Cheers.) This is a case quite by itself. I was astonished to hear Gentlemen, amongst others the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury—say that, after passing this measure, it would be impossible to resist lie claim of the Wesleyan Methodists of England to a similar endowment.—(t° Hear, hear," from the Tory benches.) Well. you think so.—( Hear, hear.) But are the cases analogous? Is there the slightest resemblance ?—( Hear, hear. ) There are sixteen millions of people in Great Britain —are there thirteen millions of Wesleyan Methodists?—( Cheers. ) Yet you have a Church in Ireland, with a revenue of a million and a half—you have the Presbyterian Church, with a State endowment—and the Wesleyan Methodists have 100,000/. left to the followers of John Wesley, and you exclaim against a "rant of 0 6,000/. for educating the clergy of four-fifths of the ;hole population.—(Cheers.) Bring me the case of the Wesleyan Methodists, and I shall know how to deal with it.— ( Cheers anti a laugh.) But here is a case which could not occur in England, in France, or in Prussia, nor in any country not situated like Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It could lee only in the case of a weaker country connected with a more power ful one, which has abused its power to enable the minority to triumph over the majority. —( Cheers. ) Having placed Ireland in such a position as this— nothing like which could exist elsewhere—and whilst those t o u th at er ed g — re l a t t h e in n k di i i t w iisneinintismsinsibtlheatforcoyunnutrtyo meet exlst a th n e d are pe case of rp th e e - Irish Roman Catholics by saying, when you are asked to add 17,000/. to the grant already conceded—" We are against any endowment at all."—(Cheers.) The question may remain to be settled at a future stage, whence is this endowment to come? What (untie are the most appropriate ?—(Cheers. ) But I do not go into that now.—(Hear, hear.) In the first place, it seems to be perfectly clear, that if you have no scruple about the 9,000/. which you have ' hitherto granted, you can have none against the increase. It seems to sne, in the next place, im possible to maintain the voluntary principle, u n l ess th e S tate and individuals desist to give endowments for religious pur poses at all, or make any efforts for the propagation of truth. 0 Therefore, when I see the ease of a country in which other ; religions are endowed, and the religion which the majority of 0 the people believe to be the best, an d w hi c h a l one they will adopt, left without assistance, I consider the case one of the most morbid anomaly.—( Hear, hear.) I think, t therefore, that, from every m o ti ve , we are b ound to , make this concession to the Roman Catholics of Ireland.— (Cheers.) Those were the chi e f o b servat i ons I h a d to make on the merits of the measure itself. But there is another class of objections which have been forced upon us. ' On the first night of the debate, we were called on to resist this measure, because it was brou g ht forward by men who could not do so with p ersona l honour, or with credit as public ' men.—( Hear, hear.) We have heard the same argument again brought forward. But I think this is a question which should not be brought into consideration. I do not think that the measure should be weighed by any consideration of party, with respect to the conduct of public men. I think it right that we should pass good laws, and that public men should seem innhaye fixed principle s .—(L ou d an d continued cheer ' trig.) I think th a t p u bli c men s h ou ld see m to h ave principles, and to be guided by those fixed principles in office and in opposition.—(lmmense cheers.) it is most desirable that it should not appear to the world that the mere change of situation should produce a complete chango ' in the policy of public men.—(Cheers and counter. cheers. ) But I do not think it needs any argument to prove that if the particular measure be good, and it may yet be viewed in con nexion with the former conduct and professions of those who introduced it—this should lower them in public estimation.— (Cheers.) Yet our course is clear. We are to distinguish between the men and the measure.—(Cheers. We ought to adopt the measure for its intrinsic merits, whilst of tha authors we might speak in such forms of censure as the occasion called for.—( Hear, hear.) In such form of censure, I feel bound to speak.—( Hear.) I bear no personal hostility to any man, and the political hostility which I entertain, I avow. I believe the Right Honourable Baronet has the qualifications of an excellent Alinister—that he possesses great talents for finance, and for the management of this House, that he has great industry, great knowledge, and a full determination to carry on the Government of the country in the best manner for the interest of the Crown and the people.—( Hear, hear.) But I cannot deny that those who, in spite of bitter experience, a second tone have trusted him and raised him to power, now find themselves a second time de luded.-_( Great cheering.) It is impossible to deny it has been too much the habit of the Right Honourable (" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial side.) But , 0. late' tea este many attempts had been made by those who ought to has; fro the last to make them, to scatter the minds of such In e s es . the right direction, and distract their intellects , to Su ch s m pre. tent, that they were now almost incapacitated from 0 ; 10 0 hending the evil consequences of such a system..-4 d and The national character of Irishmen had been deterierate,fro their public spirit had become almost extinct.—(" g ea d r s s sighl the Opposition.) Their unpolitical interests had b een 1 .nar. of—their noble resources forgotten or neglected the ir laws, their every public institution neglected or laid % e a the;r position as a nation lowered, and their honour sac n „,,ss to measures of imperial policy.—(Loud cheers from the ,best sition.) Even the last remnant of royalty left the Lord-Lieutenant, had become so great an object of info , t r i V, that it had nearly ceased to dazzle—( Hear. hear)—freiss Castle of Dublin was now very little better than a regi' rr ,, , court for the behests of the Home-office of this conni,„ol (" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) Then b° ,"" ste s say let the British Government and the Imperial Lee,,,est beware lest they at length form the Irish nation into one No bond of union for the expression of a general feeling bgi content.--( Hear, hear.) For those reasons the!, be 'e, be offered, and not wishing to trespass longer on the roll would give this measure his most cordial opposition. Id 0 4 Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT hoped the House would the think it presumptuous in him, at this late hour ' OO O night, if, on account of the speeches be had heard, here, s oos endeavour to convey, in as few words as possible , his for voting fur this measure. But he did conceive it sr ~;At duty to say a few words in answer to the speech of the st d Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, and also the Member for Dublin, on the measure now before tb„e„ Hos. and at the tenor of which he was perfectly astonished. 1 %0 Member for Edinburgh, in his speech, which, like al' t o is that fell from him, was brilliant in language and Pet r ol) argument, had adduced many reasons which he (Nlr. I S O! ! coeceived were reasons for passing this rneasure.—",_ the hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had shown that is measure there was no principle involved.—(Cries of ; j ot hear," from the Opposition.) Nothing could be m or io sis than that such was the effect of the Right Hon. Gee, t ,,, lb° argument ; and if so, he would wish to know, then , "" „ r ir measure could be called so great a violation of publierprd ciple ?—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He (M r • ile c sarg a could not see what there was in this measu re to 0, the present Government with dereliction of principle.--nori, hear.) In every year that this subject was brought "tele; those who now belonged to the Government then s u PP ar s and if so why should they now oppose it?—( Hear, Bear o f th s Hon. Member then alluded to passages in the sp eech " 1 140 Right Hon. Member for Dublin, and having quoted theleto went on to say, that the result of that had been to tbronto Catholic interests into the hands of men who had r" P d nor stake in the order and tranquillity of Irele n o ity therefore, the Government had seen the nee e F proposing this measure, in order to give tb t tural instructors of the people an i nter° 10. the State, and to place the peace of Ireland on a firtne r sa The Right Hon. Gentleman behind him, who bad i s l idssi against the measure, had taken a course which he (IgrLA Herbert) could not understand. While his s peech P' 6 ll ll tainly been aainst the esue proposed by Governme_lo4 arguments were entirely m in a its r favour. He argued hll l w bs' in favour of this measure, for he showed that other cotinVol, munificently endowed their Catholic clergy. If there allow a grant at all, why not at once give a liberal en_sorr knew that they had been told that night to take this 3%0,0' ing that this measure would not have the effect ti He He was fully prepared for the next year, and the ri o si sr a and even the succeeding year, to find that this Billvi;wi, be a successful measure, but the House must bear i n t' en all good laws operated at first but slowly, although "10.9",,, might be permanent good to the interest they were. AT, to benefit. He was anxious, however humble his ers e and however feeble his arguments might be cord! t o Or d was anxious that whatever might be the odium, er s ote . ," popularity, or the responsibility that attached to this rnf, fain, good or evil, to share in it, and for this mason alone o _ oo o/ higher, he troubled the House at that late hour of the I v let He was not one of those who thought with the Big t estl r Gentleman, the Member for the University of Dublint tb ol independent spirit of the Irish would be destroyed b o t r l sure of the Government. He did not know, inflect'', e gil a i Right Hon. Gentleman meant by this independ ea '^ Ireland. Surely measures calculated to give them an is' education, and to spread abroad a more liberal f eelieg s; not be expected to destroy this Irish spirit. It t t e se l ,6l pendent spirit, the Right Honourable Gentleman $ spirit of party—which unfortunately then existed to osr,, degree—he would inform the Right Honour able o . e fS man that the Government asked for no big planent than the having destroyed this indeper b e t he ~.rf s —(Cheers.) And such a result he thought ring „la ,"I f s prophesied, for no Gentleman in that House n,e ro gris listened to the speeches of the Irish Members witheepli,d:" struck by the altered tone of their speeches They " . 4 1 of the party feelings, they heard none of thos* o f reij appeals to religious feelings which were the disgra ce „ t . 11 ,705 debates. He trusted that the Governmer.,o9, receive kern Irish Gentlemen that co-operation all e s "iell Ast without which the best measures would most e er dierri His firm conviction was, that the measure was so sot; c sof it cinle and policy, and so calculated for the good a 6 7i eirilto ireland, that he felt bound to give it his support."' 5 in the motion of Mr. BERESFORD, the deb ate adjourned till to-morrow. B_ l lll 9 The Justices Clerks and Clerks of the Pea- to through Committee, and was ordered to be read a to-morrow. . 4 11 0 ",/ On the motion of Mr. LYALL the followi n g efil were appointed a Select Committee on Commerc ial if Mr. Lyall, Mr. Gladstone, Viscount Sandon, Al r a ' '51.40 Sir William Clay, Mr. Liddell, Mr. Bingham -7" IP - so Stuart Wortley, Captain Gladstone, Mr. Hutt, 141.'00 Baring, Mr. Ross, Mr. Dennistoun, Mr. Wayi n ' Barclay. SMOKE PROHIBITION. On the motion of Mr. MACKINNON, the 7„seds mittee on the Smoke Prohibition Bill was apP'7ooo/ tlt sisting of the following Members :—Mr. Beckett, Viscount 11 Newry, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. r 9, Earl of Lincoln, Mr. Octavius Duncombe, Lord Fri l a n or dted ton, Mr. William Henry Bodkin, Mr. Ewart, Mr. Hindley, Mr. Protheroe, Mr. Ricardo, and ' "'" Williams. PRISONS (SCOTLAND). Coo o l , On the motion of Mr. EDWARD ELLICr"' on Prisons ( Sco!land) was appointed. consistin„ rofool Ellice, jun., the Lord Advocate, Mr. Home Drum Air Rutherford, Mr. Forbes Mackenzie, Mr. N lican iz o rbet.l ming Bruce, Mr. Gibson Craig, Mr. William mr. P. a' Loch, Mr. Henry Stuart, Mr. Patrick Stewart, the 0 _ 0. 10 , Mr. Hussey, and Mr. Antrobus. Mr. ROBERT SCOTT obtained leave to bring _10:i to declare valid assignments and surrender of c hattm, in real property made in certain cases. 11 15 ADJOURNMENT OF THE DEB ATE ON NOOTH GRANT BILL. int' Sir R. PEEL said he presumed it was underloosla debate wa s a dj ourne d to to-morrow (this day) ,o " precedence of the notices of motion. b b c ro i , Mr. BOUVERIE, on behalf of Mr. Ward, 01 4 doubt his Hon. Friend intended to give way a s ' notice of motion. dotig' r Dr. BOW RIN G a l so gave way as regardod his The House then a dj ourne d, a t Half.past Twelve' COAL MARKET. Ale ~j 0! Prices per ton at the clos e o f th e mar ket y 15s; Buddle's West Hartley, 16s ; Garr's iar 161 1 )pi l : Chester Main, 15s 3d; Davison's West Hartley' all JP; Tanfield, 14s; Hasting's Hartley, 15s 9d; to t irt, 4 Ifis ; Morrison's H ar tl ey , 14 s • N e l son ' s West New Tanfield, 14s 6d ; Old ' Pontop, 14s 6d ;,,. fr , LF heugh, 13s 6d; Pontop Windsor, 14s 6d; Pott' t ' o p, l o 14s ; Shipcote, unscreetied, 13s 3d ; Smith's r°, ll ; , Taylor's West Hartley, 16s ; Townley, 15s ; 1 ' Vey, 16s; West Wylam, 15s 6d; Wylam, 15s 3d; li 0 ;01 , j; Bell and Brown, 16s 6d ; Robson, 15s 6d ; Gib 5 ,%6 ,13 ,.0r forth, 16s 6d; Killingworth, 15s 6d ; Walker, 1 ,: e 11_44 dell's Hetton, 18s 9d ; East Hetton, 16s; 3 1 .0 1 1 Hetton, 18s 6d; Hylton, 16s; Lambton, icr a ' g r P Aa r 15s 9d ; New Hetton Lyons, 16s ; Richmond , Hetton, 18s ; Stewart's, 18s 3d ; Caradoc, 1t 3 !; 0 0 ,15; 18s 9d; Heugh Hall, 16s ; Kelloe, 175; P m re l o , 17s 6d; South Kelloe, 17 ; Trimdon, 175 3d; "WolL 6 lol Cowndon Tees, 168 3d ; Eden Hartlepool, 17 , ; at ' M'Lean's Tees and Witton Park, mixed, 155 . V 3 `" tt r tle' 41g 15s; Brynly hand picked, 21s; Derwentwater O 40/ Hartley, 15s 6d; Llangennech, 21s ; Lewiss 1 , 10 Powell's Duffryn Steam, 22s 6d West Hartl e .' 16s.—Ships arrived 229. SI! Ne -in vented Spectacles, TelescollfoitC Glasses, Microscopes, &c. The artificial ai d hle p - 0 0l the sight by Lenses, is one of the most valil au o rived from science, and it is indeed of vita l ! c itiy, that the adoption of Spectacles to imperfee's, be regulated on proper principles. Afessr s 'ireenir bolomons, 39, Albemarle-street, Piccadilly , — bole posite the York Hotel, having devoted their 0,0,06 to this branch of science, and their long e% telP ses li ros °' tice, have enabled them to invent Spectacle L ei i i bQ new construction, which have gained unive rsa r tion. Immediately they are placed befor e bef b a g Y i vi.ion, that mist and dullness which apPea,, r t ~i r eyes is at once removed, every nbr - i i c!ear and distinct, so that the most ag e "' ti ef sight becomes bright and brilliant, and is br ° 0 0/ 4 youthful, natural and original state. Achill( 0°,4 scopes, Opera Glasses, Microscopes, Scc. , F A , kind of Lenses to surpass any ever inv,e n ; 4 tfo, Invisible Voice Conductor Sound Magniu e Voca: r i; persons, is not the least perceptible nor mor e . hef e a , able than having a piece of wool in its pla ae .:es 0 1 . 4 immediate relief to old standing extreme Tail the ness. Those valuable inventions have ga"" e rey:j qualified approbation of above 400 of the pig° " 0 hers of the medical profession. Caution.'veolaepivAl° and B. Solomons, opticians, are not in any VI NO ° r tl with a person of the same name in thor t orf lo neighbourhood, nor in any part of the c° coli„ prevent mistakes be cautious, and observe, n oir' had at 39, Albemarle-street, Piccadilly , °13 : ,,,, / York lintel. BIRTHS. f the II , r On the 10th inst., at Liverpool, the lady 1 Iliff, of a son. 4L Pl ° 1 1 On the 10th inst., at Hamilton- terrace, ,-- Mrs. Henry Troubrige Wright, of a sun• r th e On the 10th inst., at the Grove, Old W r ia dse ' the Rev. R. Lewis Brown, of a daughter. ~12ARRIED. On the Bth inst., at St. Saviour's, 3 -rv, J. - Evans, to Eliza, f our th d aug ht er of the late Jr . Ch 4 Bankside. On the Bth inst., at St. Marylebone Churc to 5/. Cook, of Duke-street, M anc h e ster-squam bo o. fourth daughte r o f W. B urc h e tt, Esq., of il lcilue r ' On the 10th in s t., a t Sh a di ng field, John o f Bury St. Edmund's, to Anna Maria, daughter Esq., of Shadingfield Hall, Suffolk. d d . ' -------:,i 51 DIED. „. 00 ,.., ne vi On the 29th ult., at his residence, 15 0, voll ° l, Henry Chambers, Esq., Royal Marine Servic,„°;.; fn , "d d last surviving son of the late William Chet°, r ,',. - nerl w4 ol , years effective officer to the Hon. Board or ""d i . and sincerely regretted by his family and frien o ar ,o gi On the 7th of February, at WinterbournF;irs. .giv Thomas Selby, Esq., late of the Island of Al'lloo, ,T;•• $l , On the 3d inst., at Bedford-place, 1311 gdPioll / ' daughter of the late Patrick Anderson Escl'' - f. Cl'i On the 4th inst , John Crossley, Esq., ° 0 1 ' Giles's, Buckinghamshire. - n D il A 4 On the 9th inst., at Hove, Brighton, m a c , c , i t. Gs Captain (unattached), late of the 81st Reit°„.l ) o6' 4 / On the 9th inst., at Harbledown , tja °— Buckley, Esq. gacI;O P ji, On the 10th inst., at Ward's House , _ i d, Warty, Esq., aged 76. s td . .zi On the 11th inst., in Mary-street, Ilar ° P' ti ,0 9 9 - 00 thias von Hoist, 86. YO L 9, 9l $ si ',lilted 'nd eubl4ghaci by Mil nto 3, ttotO The Suu .: the '- Strand, in the Precinct of the Savo!, 1— Middlesex, Tuesday, April 15, 184.5. L