The Sun. — London, England, 1850-03-12 00:00:00

, ay.- I , .k,., r. , . '' , .a^ n'• r-.e• dazn•itcr. AS 3 evcriere 63.9. Gi'ci- :nett consist of 1,000 men? Lord Palmerston had him r e 84 . „_ - 'e.•- - - • I _ • Oth., L. “leVZlglf 11.1; Melti, 30.1, Je.eeetee 1 ;e:lf.,t LtA before the Cenareittee that it would be a meic -11,2',..1"d't 2 3.1, e•en, .. , e '• tt ..'. e t nv-r- -in, of ver • rreat coonoriny. When Lord ll,xley, in 1822, . 1... 1,: r.. , ,4 , • ~.,-; , 1.0 J, .:.. 1 .:'rl -J. ._, .-. , . ~•, - .) k ' 4 l N el ', 1 , A torneil eed, 10.3, a i, e ,re., e . n.! ; Neve ;ieo,i3. : hrouehi, fori.vard the etieetive end non-effetive state of the ,„ 14 tPeei 1 ,'""1 , 19.7, axe! ap , 13.0; Cenade, 15.6, ' army, he stee.ed that h•,' the reduceion that would teke place tio o e // -7 6 ; le efele eee h.', ~.,, , rae i e 15e1; Cape 0: in the nen-,•fieciive e,rength of the airy, tin might cutlet 'Pr%,,, „T,„ v 5,.?„ neere, ge to n; it t, M.. e rele ~ 14.0, upon an nititeete eavieg '0 5,000000/.; but all the 11 'cr,,,,, e. ,, e,. ) ;,(ee j lein, 21.5, avenevee 41.1; .7,;,e1, at, 22.1, ,e,viees in that tiepartment were now mided t., the drew. lire, i s f .: . ° Years 73.1; lleneal(!i - e, r , ;11 - i - , f; en this Live Strcn;.;Lh of the or:: y, se) tai the people were no 1p7 5 ,1 ) .. 01 ,„he year , eding 2,lereli 31, V V 3), 61 1, ever- gainene Ile emit ?tided that the public were scandaleusly a 4 td r „,: i , J y' 26 6, averare 62 :',; New S , Judi used in evtry point cf viiev hy a speem which main aeb, ' ew Z' d.and, 8.3, tave;aee of 10 years 11.0; ruined double the number of officers really required. In of, eltie e t, L , - .... rec ent i t ' , uct, 2.0, average 14.0. le consequence his opinion, it WaS high time for that Hense Lo look to t heir ~n 2 .o v :pv.-113,5 in the Wes• Iw.'ies, the troops these milit a ry establishments, with a view to cutting 'Clei r tr„..nere were now as healthy ez in any other of them down. In the proposition which he was about to N. , ' 11 1O•try mat i.„,, ____ l yr ~" ~,,, •-• ) Now eit h re- make he did not ask them to iii: charge one soldier. All he, c, the ~,,-._... -•_-•, k . ,-.. , , • , A.. 0, . . .1 , , , 1 , .' ii): hie 4 4 ,. ..r Lei) ei: eetwetion for the army, it eiel b een he desired we's to stop recruiting. The people of Felg t`lide,„„ carry out tile plan which feed Leen prevrinede land were Wei”lno,(l down to the 'roared by the pressure '''ts,„ . w ith greet i ai-e and. skill bv has predecessor ,of taxation. In Mar) li.bene, which Was ono Of the I tt o f 2 . l, The last quarterly retort's siie" , ed Oat in 18 I riehrst p, r i s h es i n Leedom he had asceriaincd Viet there ~,ttge t ' e hools, that stern was fl..eirislette, Eitel that, I were. GOO warrarrs t,f distress is sued tar the non-pay '4llo,,, ;i l u , ' vvhe ; et elded them were 2,21'.9 n.),1-erns- i anent of the rafts. He had riot been able as yet to lesrn tie 'et, T '-' t 11,,, Ptne„ ri ile..-,r, near.) „-„,,, t e at , F y s l etli 1 what the number was on ateeneant of the assessed taxes. Oct ;,,, Y 'natured, he b e lieved that s better edueat •d lle weuhl, however, mare for ' :s return which would give I leri r ,,,' ll would n , t ho found a• e y wile:- thi...e thes, him this inf eirnation. Indeed, they ought to bore re halha . i.)s,ecl her Me,'say', army.-((lt'at", h':l - .) Ile turns of all the parishes in l,t;:it . 4da , id ri,; to .he number ' ,4 „ ll . le i l .‘ „ P a t' l Y 1 0 , b . , ai d e to say . ...1 - e..a the Commeseecr.e„.. !il wetrrantte or di,tress i,sopd beth in respect to ' st e , " ,, e.rained in applying the same se•.;tern to ' parochial and what were call7el King's taxe,. They 4, )41 ' class of the f ' •,•, s e I I ,'sure would find by the returns that hair putinerin . army, fear notutie ceu 1 b 'l'Ai t t ,: ll : l to ditrunlF,ll that respcct which" it. was. rn - , and crime had been in a great deere3 predec • d by' r i ti '' ~fii 4 " the S All 'I" should entertain towards his 611- 1 their taxation. They thus tot Ic frem the working -0:11Iiv_'!e 0 !hie the eieetrmit tree that tho soLlier ! classes the last remnant nf property which tiny pos k j,, 'uN hairs, 1r to be ,uo , rior in point of knowledge ? sensed, and fercrd them to Le depeedent upon the no.a . -- k4 let.t, s t ,",,' e r tur officer.-(Hei r, hesr.) The C. , 11,- rates instead of receiving a cont,rihution from them in Z . !ttsi e c„ . ',,,"l'f, therefore, would insist that every support of these establishments. Il they hid reduced 11 1 aN, "`" undergo an eraminee'en hel„re he entered fie army to tee standard of 1835, they never would have the' and in due and not very distant time he hoped , required the ineorne-tex. In a pamphlet published by a Ito e;tili t ii, Dcr, on n would b e more w id e ly apr e ce i, an d E ; la t Mr. Norman Icady, tee opinion of Mr. John Stuart tt ' t ctild he promoted to the ra lc of erietaie I Mill was quoted upon this pOile. That gentleman was tit o end er ,. ' ' de to .a ' that h tl l ,, e' , og a second examination. Ile had LOW I m• 1 de ,3, till amount raised by Governmeut in i,, a tee grounds on which he thought 99,123 men the shape of taxation wes fir the purpose of affording Ctoa trt 'a, r:i' far the service of the country. lie had : the Government an opportunity of spending that which Ois e L ' ll to show that the charge for the effe e tiee t ether people ought to he allowed to spend. The Go ttvittf• c e 'lectiee service! bad been duly ettended to in I vernment had now a surplus of 2,000,0001., which would th e a enemy, H e shownwhat had been I enable them to make the reduction asked for with the t h , (l loey . • had .. . ,'; 4 ' it, 411 ;1') with respect to discipline, health, and edit- I most perfect security. This was the time for Honour- Ctii ti ehe could tell the House, on authority w hi c h f ! able Members opposite to support him in his propositions tile ee to re: it d ( 4 ' f III '1 to testa tpec an cre et rem tin onto, w len i for such reduction. If they refused to do so then e it tl ltt 'alony with regard to the discipline of ant he would not listen to any attetnpt at reduction made IQ ft ,. 48 to both officers and men the British army by them at a time when there 'could bo no such ; I tit,„. B. ' l ate of which the country might well be proud; 1 surplus in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's hands. i l et t ,,:Prepnred at all points to meet the enemy, and ? The Noble Lord at the head of the Government <!o e p t e , l itce had every disposition, at all times and I would not be placed in any worse condition if 1 tle - " s iQus, ta live in peace and harmony and good Ihe assented to this reduction. His position, on the con itYle t t' With its fellow-citizens in every part, not only trary, would be greatly improved; for he would not be itis e i tl i r ltrY, but in the extensive colonies which ap- so much bothered for the distribution of his patronage, °t'tl ) ' 43 hit •-(Cheers.) for he would have fewer applications. The more money 14 11„ . 4tite ting Veen put, they had to spare the more they were annoyed by the claimants on their bounty. This was an economical ei tti N t lt; said that he most heartily concurred in th, ilutcg portion of his Right Hon. Friend's countr y , - ( Lau g hter. ) Ho admitted that they had I lo "te was happy to find that so much had b een , amassed capital, but it was not sufficient to support the heavy weight of taxation which was placed in i i t he t & r °clote the discipline, the health, and education I greater proportion upon the shoulders of the poor than L i te t tr l Ye•-(liear, hear.) It was a erect satisfaction upon the real capital of the country. . He, therefore, 0 ,, i , 0 hail 30 long contended for the abolition of , I begged leave to move that the number 99,000 be altered Ztt t : the army, that a different system had been to 89,000. . le,te st ;, ° rk so well, and to be attended with so much ! The question having been put, 04 0 `s• Ile had heard from the present distin ttlaitlatatnailder-in-Chief that the number of lashes Major BLACKALL said it was not in consequence t RI ,:e time should now be limited to 50, and it of having been connected with the service he was induced f i c44 4l ;'t teseisfaction to have heard him say that even to oppose the amendment. He believed that all those i li b iti tl t T might in time be reduced.-(flea*, hear.) who were connected with this service were equally anxious as the Hon. Member for Montrose to see it conducted Ot ty t t o glad that better barrack accommodation had , tle to l 'ited for the soldiers. He never said the pay of with every regard to economy. He had not heard 7,te tt r officers was too high. The only difference any reason assigned by the Honourahle Member ett t4 ' t ti between him and his .Rielit Hon. Friend form the proposition he made. The Honourable Nt t it il a numbers of the army. 1;18 9 8 the actual Member said that he only want id to stop re t44,17t0 trevenne raised was 15,500,0004 But in con- cruiting ; but surely that object, if attained, would , not have the effect of reducing the household troops or ie t lle tt ° , l tt great outcry being raised against the , the cavalry of the . United Kingdom.-(Hear, hear.) 0,4 that time, a Committee was appointed, and ki T titi tt to the extent of 5,000,000/. were effected Were there any of their colonies in which they could i t , l iti ..1 ,;'• In that year the revenue was 50000000/.. with safety effect a reduction of their troops. In the Whole of their North American colonies, including Ber k ,t 1 , 4 -43 " sorry to say that since that time Whole t lucre ased the expenditure, except during rauda, their effective force only amounted to about 5,500 men. It they meant to hold their West Indian colonies, I% L ao years. He maintained, however, that t 4 P ' w li t ,„; IM necessity for the increase ' during the in- surely 3,300 men was not too large a force. In the , ii„t tititt Years. They had not yet heard the financial Cape of Good Hope they had only 2,500 men; in Of th °l „the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chan- Ceylon 1,000 men; in the itlauritius 1,000 men; Aus tralia, including New Z-aland, 2,500 men; in Gibraltar t lpt lki ° t;xchequer, but he thought he might take 2,500 men; in Malta 1,000 men; in China 1,000 men. tit be for the present year, allowing for reduc hillilt et ween 50,000,0001. and 51,000,000/. There Ile did not see how they could reduce the amount in any "e w t l , ay of reducing the expenses of the army, of these colonies. The Hon. Gentleman said that the i, aii ik as by reducing the number of men. The vas army at home was maintained at its present standard for the purpose of keeping down certain clesses. This he thi . "'irY and naval Committees that had sat up to , dried.- . (liear, hear.) He was sure that the conduct yitlt o t 'ci'ent period had invariably been recom o. the military could not justify such an assertion. When ' 0, 40 refer to the model of 1792, in the time of V, l kiti i rreath, as a means of enabling the country to anything like a rebellion was threatened, the manufac -144, 1,8 character, and be provided - with a full ex- curing classes ti ere the very first to call on the military !, ;. tetm Produce the sinews of war whenever events for their active interferenee-(Hear, hear)-and if there tr 9 t gd o e r such a measure necessary. Instead of was any attempt made to reduce them they would be the 9i 4t W il 4 the expenditure and husbanding their re- very first to grumble. He certainly could not agree to the . amendment. Vol t at way, they bad been not only expending Oy °I the revenue, but within the last ten or Sir W. MOLES t' said that the Hon. and ite Lye they Gallant Gentleman who spoke last complained of the , a -ney had added no lass than 40 0)0 000/. to -- Of °ill - • , want of argument for the proposed reduction, and he t, t t 0 country. Here was no less than 13,000 Ostoitterease which bad been accounted for in ooh- called upon his Her. Friend to explain his reasons for t ‘ \ 1(1 1 „, the rebellion in Canada. The rebellion was bringing forward this amendment. Before he attempted a reply to the Hon. and Gallant Member's speech, he tlie t t` e ,acre not the men gone too ?-(Heir, hear.) ' f or 4 that in the - ft t ees year 1835-6 the number of would refer to a remark wade by the Right Hon. Gentle \;man the Secretary at War-namely, that the expense of i t i was 80,000; in 1847 it had increased to the army and militia at the present moment was nearly 6 , 111 1 1 „: 84 8, Matters not being yet settled in Ca the same as, it was in 1835. That statement of tte .t hl,st„'"reher of troops had been increased to 93,000. RightGentleiran contained a fallacy, because the V lor . " ° °d that two-thirds of the troops were kept , e s t i militiry expenditure ought to be divided into two elassi I) t aia t ls Qliefs and therefore it was that he and namely, the effective and the non-effective. Tne 'e,• llr able Members had supported the proposi- - eff,ctiee had reference to cervices actually performed. tpl tt - elisei ng colonial corps, believing that it Diet alone was under the control of Parliament, whereas Vol. ,to it contitierehle reduction. In 1846 the * the non-effective exteediture depended npoa the hum ye t 'e:l votsd wee 103,000, nnd in the following t her of men that had been employed in the service in Qle.. u alber was 113,000. Ile (Mr. Hume) had op- I ft t li t '„' and proposcet that they should go Laelt to previous years. He foued that rho effective expendi d to 3.344,000/. In 1848-49 to ,tiip t t c i and the following pier to 95,000. " No" t " .. '" in 1335 21Th ' unk 4,35G,0001. It subsequently dt-creaee.l to 3 936,000/, Ytt : y et - ninety, " we want 113,000 men, because , bettig a reduction cf 423,000/.; but there had still been kiit (,'Cr"l'''-!l:,ve 31nue regiments sent to India, whe . re The question of e 92,000/. since 1835, and i f 18,000 men. y, 44 4 IN' ell e , there was peace now in India, 1..0 qae.sieori with safety them now to consider was, whether lttNit ° l 4 d not these 13,000 men be taken otl? Ile ~N''e x trit men required were paid for by the th ,l ey da c i o d uid of w;t B3s sa a f n et d y lB l approximate o x u i , r h a L a v te n• ,: or a e o c d lo d sely t d o the il l Nit. Inpuiy, and tnercfore he would not refer to sons s'r' t . o . be shown Ot ti , Lilt if the Government objected to reducing appeared to him that the onus probwidi rested with the i ti P t ° f ratte already epployed, why not stop re- Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War to state I,„,.ii' - ,„ 04 ,0 Year ficar . ..) - lie found, from there - these reasons.-(Hear.) If they were determined to : 4 „,` the teble that every year there were 11,000 , keen un so large en amount of troops as they had at pre , •. 3 1 1 i(1 enlisted, emit, they stopped for one year tent ii; the colonies, he thought that they also ought to 7 et (l re something. He came now to the vote for • \4 -)ea. - I keep up a considerable number of troops at home, be ie. , , 99,000 men, and he contended that the 1 ,4 3 , ?entleman heel not stated one single valid ' lis. t aeY should so large force. Whet l iel ' - '• e4r */ 1 lie i th u ey sh ‘ ou T lit h he prepared . to afford those abroad re e question then, for them to consider !,e_ ‘. (4 . • have .. a Was this, whether they required so large a number as Y"6 ' lie the Commiteee vi ae that they should 11 1. °0 tee " , ti in 1 1 far tee present year, and 80,000 for 40,000 men in the colonies_ 2 . Fin asked the Committee, eese of keeping up this c A 'l t ti ttl g . Seer, which wonid in his opinion be am- to consider well their was th T ltt ?. t for all purposes, and produce a considers- large holy in colonies, e l x n P rh returns which had tiPte Then there was the promotion system, been presented 'Jest year to the He o ure, they nad an ac , ta disgrace, to their army. He had hoped to count of the expenditure for the years 1846 and 1847 Ne t ,away with altogether, and the men raised under this head . It a pp eared then that the avera g e 0 , 7 °14 ' 9,3 according to their merit. They were 1 1847 amounted expenditure for the years 1840 and . . to 3,500,0001. exclusive of any expense incidental to their 1 1 2tle t t r esent upon the mercantile system in the i)( 1 ; 11 ,707 .1 he held to be entirely wrong With re- fleets kept in colonial situations, which amounted to t,'ti tt ',lfii for India, he had no wish tu . see any re- , 1,000,000/. The direct expenditure, therefore, must be , 1 1,Patticeil there longer than ten years. lie knew conidered as amounting to 4,500,0001. If, then, they h l CCdt"it that had teen obliged to remain there included the expenditure on eccouot . of the Ordnance 41 thcommissariat, the total would be 9,000,0001. The effec t', nr I \n 18 years, and ho certainly should not live expenditure of tho militiry was 3,000,0001., and of 1 c 'a th tl tite reduction teat would ieflict, on the army non- , e ffective 1,000,000/. The colonies should be consi -1:1t pan 10 year ,ervice in India He would re ,\ Ra e 1 1 that in the e - ar 32 the 'numb e• i'f tiered tweler three heads-namely, military stations, N„fli t ,:'Y 4 5, 9 92 ' f0r . England, ) Le:laA:aryl the Colo- plantations, and what were properly called our colonies. Niii / were rot probably prepared fer such a re- If they wished to keep posses/ion of such colonies as ,I, Pre„ • . . ' Hong-Kone, St. Helena, Labuan, and Sarawak, they te t , ) , , - , nt, but it was quite possible by and by, this '''t'ii7s hal beceme teeir own maneg ,ro, and must make up their minds to pay for this expense, which amounted to 500,000/. a year. 'lle would WM' yh t , 1 : 1 01.1l : 1 ta:i o upon themelves their t;wn police shoe' that the statistics of the Hon. and Gallant Gen- It i t l ite t t a arranitemeets - the time lie had no leman who spoke last were all wrong. At Malta, he et et °orate elthougli ho migl,t not live t stead of only 1,000 men, there was at that moment 2,891 i1t, 41 11,;?, 4 the eetablishment of 1792 weuld be found ' ttitit',tt t z lt- lie ()emended that there was notating mmn• Vtle ( ''n eirentristaness of the country to warrant Major BLACKALL-I only spoke of the troops of 'l 4 t ' x 'l e l , l • o heyonc ' i 80,000 men ; Till cause had been the line. Sir W. MOLES 1Y calculated all the troops for kti tto Pt tent of statining well with other coma whose support they had to pay. In the lonian Islands 'G ti ke i t 'eh . and thaihtaining a laree army because they hal 0 500 men, and the expenditure amounted to , I t t lo•sia maintained thine That used,wa not the , '`' - )Pti 'c le o t , • • 1 , d 130,000/. a year on the average. Sines the peace they t. t t , mard suce an argument it ea hed cxoended upon these islands 4,500,000/. The ‘ k tti, t `t Government when an increase of the erected fortifications which cost 456,000/. They con Y - A l : ir tyn for on a former occasiein, the reason as- structed a citadel that cost already 180,0004, and there ir it tes that Frince had done so. He had felt it efley t e 'n'ese that proposition at the time. Why, ass 96,03 e/. yet to be expended upon it. The fortress, kt'e th r t ere going to fight the battle e f Waterloo it appeared, was so large that it was deemed not to be trie t daeless they were going t') fight the battles expedient to bring troops there to command it. So that 3‘tiitlat cis they had done beicre 'there could be \ l 4 t : l rSi) large a force. He thout: ht the addition the wisest thing . that they could do in case of war was to withdraw their troops from it and to blow up the for tress. In riference to their plantations abroad, he would 111 Pe II Made of 600 millions to Oeir del by the 11 (11 11d • . ' ' - ' take the tVest Indies, and he found the troops there t „, tth 'put it out of the power of sny Govern- amounted to 6,500, requiring an expenditure of tVtlti, 'r e house of Commons to commit so great -a 500,000/. a year. He had never heard any good reason f ` t oad tb -laet the Government give the people the re assigned for . k-teping so large a body of troops there. '‘''°li '" reductions they re 'tired and let them at,' t)r their ' • q ' ' In the Mauritius they had 1,732 men, requiring an tp , 3 safety upon the contentment and expenditure of 90,000/. a year. In 1838 they expended eNhi 83 and loyalty of the people, instead of noun , 0 t k (-mime A largo tan T eli o t army he never a lo m e oT ro m i t l i i n ta g ry works there 200,000/., and other works ,Q, (l t urite doctrinecof the' to 200,000/. more. In Ceylon the Ntit l t ' t it the doctrine of the Whigs. It would number of troops was 4,000, of which 1,800 were troops of the line, requiring an exponditure . of 83,0004 a tAt ) t •,;'c Place where they sat had something in fec year. He would now refer to their colonies, properly so 't i rli t ,'''' - e(A. laugh)-because he could brine' from called. Ile maintained that there ought to be great re tmittilthit t p B Pe , e . ches of the Noble Lord (J. Russell) tt) t t i i .u•tes in times past not to trust to beyonets ductions made in the military forces in those colonies.- If„they gave them free institutions the colonies h i ti ii o Nl It 'rY establishments, bat to depend en the ( ge a r ') V4i ) ed feeling of the people. Now the Noble should pay for all their own local government.-(Bear,) n t. - ( 11"1% ) 'eti lti i ts t 3• ready to assert that these establishments :Ibis country ought not to seep any troops there unless "c i rste'te al) to maintain the honour and dignity of it be shown that they were required for Imperial.oh tet ‘)t tt Ile wished to show how the various pro- jects. In Canada and their North American colonies 'lth,'r et ' ° ,nrrny had been altered. In 1835-0 the they had 8,700 men, and in Bermuda 1,000 , entailing an expenditure of 645,000/. a7year. He contended that tii 7 7 lq . alry end household troops was 10,810 it Canada should pay for the support of these troops. If 11 e i t ti5. , 8 , 3 0, 12,850. The Foot Guards were, in they wished to attaelathese colonies to this country they Qt:' i' e i'''"Y were now 5. 9 60. The infantry of the I ttti t ,'ll ie • B3s , 79,7 99 ; in the present year they were ought to give them local government, by which they would be enabled to manage their own affairs.-(llear, o„,qt o '' colonial cor were, in 1.35, 5592; in hers.) In the Cape of Good Hope they had 5,182 men, 'itthid tir e ar they were 9,983. The ageregato force, which cost this country nearly 700,0001. a year. If they :letters! f °rmer periodd, was 100 990. and at the ' 1 1, 1 ' 5 4 , 4"t it was' 125 ' ,625. He fecit ' td . that for granted „. self government there, they would be able to reduce the number of their troops.-(ticar. n . int i g, o „ ,, aa the number required in 1835 was 23,013; In their Australian colonies, including New Zealand, 1 lhetis,',t) , 14 ? ) 72, being an increase of between 10,000 , the number of troops was 4,172. Ho believed that t lt ' • For Ireland the number in 1835 was t i ise 2,500 of them were in New Zealand; the remainder ,!, 4 ( 1 44 13 now 25,400. For the colonies the l t egli t ,‘tet e ' 5 WSI 36.941; it was now 39,730. The were chiefly in Van Dietnetes Land, where it was said , N,lt'sjs !hen, for Great Britain, Ire" net, and the they were required on account of the convicts. But in New Zealand the mount (if troops was almost as large 1 1 04 141 S: 1 5 81 9 7 I • it was trues 99,1°S,s , lowinr , o 4 0 , 11,, 7 ' ''' . ". • , ' 2,4 the number of the adult European population.- ,e, •1) ,, ie India e :nen. To incite up •le• clime increase )1 , 4 5,,4 i ,t , ~ 1 , f , lO „,, 0 n en Is in 1 , 35 (Bear, hear.) Ile considered, taking together the colo y,,n, . t ,, to .t..lf ) ,i .. ) ~ . -• , . , l ilt's Ganda : the Cape of Good Hope, and New Zene ,4lr, e t i, - tmonient 30.497; but as the Eest Indin i ,i.nd, ) they might reduce the army by seven or eight I, M it itl i tt, , ,, m i I.;riarc.ithat He 1 , 0,000 Ten, he tee b n!d r it k ~4.3 t. ha. lie chrhhnucd that tho num ~ thousand men.. He would propose that reduction on the Vitl i t e , e/,."au that. The peenle v.ei.e as centented Principle that the eeloeteis ought to pay all the expenses of their military .syieetil. :Vlii t ,' ( ' th,;' - ' To.' , 'N as in 133 re end he need teit remind ; 1 Cat,t,in BOLDER() could not understand how the ;i' t , ) ter th - t • t here heti been - 10,000 pensioners en- i „ i e He'd in ' "A' Le estronet could vote for a reduction of 11,000 10011 tnt ta t ' m -that there had been 10,000 enro lled proposed himself was a reduction of 8,000 Of i l• tEdi n , 4 11, 1 0 r ,,ic c , f us, and in Eecland and I re l an d an te n. 1 when all he men. Thy observations of the lion. Baronet applied to ) 1 ' l O fi "r ee of not less than 10,000; so here was ,ts• sp. er° me n the army an the colonies, as it was his hobby to get rid i l t , ,1 11 „ r,,,..1.n over and above the orlinery es- of ~ e 0,.. Sir ce, . ems. . ~ ',l o k h 'llt 3 ,! - "str, hear.) In the cavalry alone the" Sir W. ItIOLESII ORTII-No, no. I ttttavie,„"Zht he reduced to seven or . ei'kt and Captain BOLDERO-The Hon. Baronet asked what SR:ti:,, , e l '" t i v, ll r i _n_l n on li e 70 . t1d be in . offiaers, birraelts, was the uto of Hong-Kong and Van Diemen's Land. N i s . ,, , t te 4 , 10 4hy is nts.ria, which A e appeared to bo Sir W. MOLESWORTII-No, no. 'M v 1: tte t t c. l keeping up . large military cold).- BOLDERO-Now, they had these two colo • Captain Nt i 11 . 4 ,r1., tc s m , nts of the line toek the duly of I . nice since the Savourite yeer 1835, and they were main '(Pl, '414, l ag a palace by rotation. They had ' ). I,cd, let somewhere about 100 reel- taining now the setne number in both colonies that they t 1 ; r e 1, 0 , !0 them, 10 as to make each regi- '' had in that year. One of these colonies they had taken as a conquest, and as to the other they had it by stealth or purchase, or, perhaps, a little of both. He supposed that they had both for the advantage of the mercantile interest. If it were of no use to them, he asked in God's !mine of e het use they were to :he country? He found that they sent their metatfactures to both places. Now, lw asked, could they with safety to these colo nies reduce their array; or could they take away their a-my from Ireland? If the Noble Lord opposite could with confidence reduce the troops by 9,000 a year, he would do so. The Noble Lard could not do that —he could have no confidence in the tranquillity of Ireland, • where thousands were starving; for at this moment he leoked upon the people of Ireland as the most pauperised and the most, helpless t) be found amongst all the civi l:ie.-el nations on the face of the earth, and therefere he said that they dare not withdraw their troops from Ireland. —([liar.) And then they knew this, that there was not at the present moment a crowned head in Europe that was not sustained by the f tree of bayou( t;.—(lleir.) There were from 300,000 to 400,000 soldiers in France, as well as iu Prussia, and seeing this he said it would be the worst possible policy for the English to reduce their army below the prefer standard.—( dear.) It was said thus with railways they required less soldiers. Railways were of use in case of an invasion; but they were of no use in cese of an internal commotion. In such a case, it they reduced the troops, they,would find some of the inenulareturing distric's without troupe. Let thorn sup. pose that there was a row in Liverpool, and that the troops were seat there to check the di: turbance, then those who might bo disposed to excite commotion could gel fey the train in one hour to Manchester, and burn property. Toe Manchester people would then require troops. They would be wanted at both places at the same Mee. The piteous in Manchester would complain that they paid taxes as well as those in Liverpool, and were entitled to the same protection. In point of tact, the troops were mainly quartered in these districts. In Wales there was scarcely a single soldier. In Scotland, with the exception of Glasgow and Edinburgh, there were scarcely any troops. In the rural dlstriefie there was scarcely si single soldier to he found.—(He sr.) The whole force was kept up merely to defend the property of Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—(Hear, hear.) And yet with all this they heard constantly repeated outside the walls of that House that the army was kept up to pro vide for the aristocracy.—(Hear.) It was unjust and unfair to the army for men without any knowledge of the manner in which it was composed thus to speak of it. The aristocracy was not provided for in the army more than any other class of her Majesty's subjects. The ob servation as to the aristocracy did not apply to any of the troops, with the exception of the Household Brigade and the Guards—and even amongst them was to be found a fair sprinkling from other classes; whereas more than one-half of the officers in their heavy cavalry regi ments were the sons of mercantile men, and in the ma rines, the artillery, and the engineers, there was scarcely one officer connected with the aristocracy; whilst as to the officers of the line, it was notorious that almost every interest was fairly represented in it.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Montrose had declared that there were 45,000 more men this year than in 1835, and to make out that calculation he included men in their dockyards, some of whom were not employed more than one week. As to the Hon. Member for the West Riding, he had affirmed that they had more officers than was necessary—that there was one officer to every twelve men. He did not know how the lion. Gentleman, with his powers of calculation, was able to make out that statement. Taking the number of officers and of men they did not make up the amount of lin 12. Taking out of the number those who were not working officers they would find the officers were not 1 in 12, but 1 in 30 ; and taking all classes of officers, including the surgeons, they were not lin 12, but lin 18. What with officers sick, &c., there was scarcely enough of officers, and they often heard from India that they had not officers enough. The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for the West Riding had also said that he had taken advice as to the cone position and management of their army, from officers, not officers of the English army, but officers of Hanover or Hangary—(Laughter) for one authority was as good as the other.—(Laughter.) Now, he said they were nut to be bound by the authority of foreigners ; they were equal to all foreigners; they were superior to thew; and it:the Hon. Gentleman liked their discipline, he (Captain Boldero) could say that he did tot. In conclusion, he begged to say, that if a reduction such us proposed were adopted, it would tend to promote dis content and disaffection iu every part of her Majesty's dominionF. Mr. MACGREGOR gave credit to her Majesty's Government for the reductions effected by them, and which coincided with calculations of his own some few years since. He stated the number of troops employed by foreign Governments, and then added, anxious as he was to reduce taxation, and especially the window-tax, whenever the revenue would enable him to do it—he said that he was aware that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer was as anxious to reduce expenditure and economise the finances of the country as any man could possibly be. Sir B. HALL was bound to say that whenever the troops were called upon t 3 act in this country they al ways acted with extraordinary forbearance. At the same etne, being anxious to reduce the taxation of the country, he could not vote for a continuance of this ex penditure; and after the discussion that was now taking place, followed as it would be by a division, the Noble Lord would be able to say to many Hon. Gentlemen that they would not vote fur a reluetion of taxation be cause they had voted for expenditure. As a landed proprietor, he would be glad if there was a reduction of taxation, and us a representative of a metropolitan bo rough, he desired a repeal of the window -tax, and it was to enable him to do EU with a safe conscience that he would vote for the proposal of his Hon. Friend. They wet e in a situation in which they could reduce their army; they were at peace with the world, and tte crown of teeir Monarch was not like that of foreign Sovereigns, for it was ritt, as the lion. and Gallant Member for Chippenham had declared, "sustained by bayonets." Captain BOLDERO explained. Mr. STANFORD, though not familiar wit's army accounts, had taken the trouble of going through these estimates page by page, and could not help expressing his admiration at the manner in which they had been prepared. Every discredit bad attempted to be thrown on that noble service. —(On, oh.) There was a party in this country, and he had during the recess read a pamphlet written by one of them, who asserted that the army was maintained for the bene fit cf the aristocracy, and that regiments were merely speculations of the colonels. Any man, how ever, of plain common understanding, without being a military men or familiar with accounts, could take up these, estimates, see how every shilling was spent, and whether any one item was capable of reduction or nor, upon which he would not then enter. He thought it creditable to any Government to have placed such clear estimates before the country. The point under consi deration was, whether the Government asked for a larger force than was necessary t t maintain peace at home, the dignity of the empire abroad, and likewise to preserve our colonial possessions. With regard to the first, it was perfectly clear that there must be a sufficient force at home to back the law. Of what avail would be the sentences of judges, if there was no force at hand to enforce them. It might be said that they might be carried out by the means of the police force. Thet he denied. When Honourable Gentleman opposite voted for these re - lac:ions in the name of the people, he should be glad if they would explain what they meant by the word people. Did they include amongst them the pick pockets, thieves, convicts, and mendicants, that large body which belonged to what were called the dangerous classes ? These, according to an eminent statist, amounted to no less than 60,000 or 70,000, always ripe for anarchy and confusion. Was it to be supposed that such men were to be kept in restraint by 3,000 or 4,000 constables. This country was not Prance, with but one metropolis to keep in order. There was Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, and Glasgow, with from 200,000 to 300,000 inhabitants each, each requiring a garrison, .not to tyrannise over the people, or deprive them of their political liberties and rights, but to pre vent disorder. It was monstrous to hear men get up and talk of Englishmen being tyrannised over, when every country admired our constitution, and adopted it as a model in constructing their own out of the embryo of re volution. Where were the petitions asking the House to disband our forces, or reduce them? Where there any from either this country or the colonies? They might desire reduction of taxation, but he knew of no application for reduction in this direction, the result of which would be to check the spread of our commerce by withdrawing protection from our colonies. Why, it was asked, were 2,000 men maintained in New Zealand, where there where only a few savages to keep in check? Why, a perusal of the dispatches from that colony would show that it was principally from the inadequacy of the force maintained there that the war had; beeks i o much prolonged. In Canada, too, it was said, what necessity can there he for maintaining 5,000 men? Better give them a constitution. It was unnecessary to go now into the causes of the late rebellion; but would any one main tain that a reduction of the force would not have in creased the desire of America to obtain that colony? At the Cape it was equally clear that a strong force was requisite to resist the constant attacks of the Kafirs on the frontier. He rather doubted the trustworthiness of the sources from which the Hon. Member for the West , Riding drew his facts. Ho did not wish to cast any im putation on the Hon. Member, but, when imputations were cast on the distinguished hero who was a glory to his country, and whose name would be handed down to posterity surrounded by a halo of renown, he had a right to doubt anything coming from such a source. The Honourable Member for the West Riding had also spoken slightingly of our naval force. He was sorry that any natural-born British subject should desire to depreciate that service, and must re gard him, if not an alien in blood, at least an silica in spirit. He was glad to hear the Minister state that ho was determined not to suffer one of our colonies to be taken from us, and to support that determination, which wal supported on both sides, he must nec,ssarily come down to the House and ask for an adequate force. It would not be doing the Government justice, which he was always disposed to render them, after they bad made all these reductions, when they had brought our forces ai ;ow ns they could he conststentiy with the of our pwition ahroad,and the maintenance of our colonies, to call on them to make a further reduction of so great an extent. lie was not ordinarily a supporter of the Government, but on this occasion they should have his sincere and hone..t support, when they had come manfully forward, end, disdaining all low arts of popu larity, had shown themselves desirous to maintain the honour and glory of their country.—(Hear, bear.) Mr. OSBORNE said that the Hon. Member who had just addressed the House seemed to have gathered his idea of the army from the proceedings of the select ves try of which he was at one time a Member—he seemed to look upon it as a sort of new police.--(H. , ar, hear.) And when he asked where was the cry for the reduction of the army he seemed to have forgotten the cimplaint Of that same select Ttstry againtt the sixpenny rate fog such a system would introduce not only greater vigour, but greater economy into the army. It was well known that the Secretary at War was only a finance Secretary; he had no more power to carry out any re form than other Hon. Members, and it was therefore unfair to fall foul of him in that House for not doing so. The fault was not in him but in the sys tem; and so long as the present system was kept up he held that, with all deference to the Hon: Member (Mr. Stanford), who was so enamoured with the novel manner in which the estimates were drawn up—though it was precisely the same as had been in use for thirty or forty years past—so long would there be profuse expenditure. —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for the West Riding had made one assertion in which he (Mr. Os borne) took l eave t o diff er f rom him—viz., that the army was kept up for the benefit of the aristocracy.—(Hear.) Mr. COBDEN—What I said was, that such was the assertion of the Liverpool Financial Reform Asso c i a ti on . Mr. OSBOTI,NE—Oh! the association that published several ignorant tracts.—(Laughter.) He(Mr. Osborn e ) could assure his Ho n . F r i en d, and the Liverpool Finan cial Reform Association too, that he had taken particular pains on the subject, and he found that the great pro portion of officers in one branch of the service—the heavy Dragoon s — were th e son s of capitalists who bad made their money in a far and honest way—(Hear) — and that a great proportion of the officers of the infantry were sons of very poor men, who had gone into the army as a profession. He maintained, then, that with one or two exception a l reg iments, the working branch of the army was not kept up for the benefit of the aristocracy.—(Hear, heir.) He thought, however, that the Hon. Member for the West Riding was per fectly justified in his assertion with respect to the dis proportion which existed between the number of officers and men. He found that for an army of 100.000 men there were nine field-marshals, 58 generals, 67 lieute nant-generals, and 174 major-generals—a staff much greater than that of the French army of 450,000 men— (Hear, hear)—with half a million of national guards into the bargain. The Hon. Member for Glas gow (M r. Macgregor), who had co me out on this occasion in his new character of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and who would not have them reduce anything, had said that the French army cost double what ours cost; but he had omitted to mention that that included the whole of the ordnance, while ours did not.—(Hear, hear.) He must say, too, that he thought it unfortunate that the general officers were paid from the profits of the clothing estab lishment.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that a fixe annual payment would not only place the officers in a more respectable position, hut might bo the moans of savin4 40,000/. a year.—(Bear, hear.) It was curious to notice the difference between the cost of clothing in the various departments of the army. The clothing of a private of the line, he feline, cost 21. 65., the foot guards 31. 155., the cavalry of the line 4/., the Blues Si. 45., the Life Guards 61. 13s. 3d., being more than double the co.t in the cavalry of the line. And such dresses as they were tx, ! Cuirasses in which he was sure the man could never strike a blow, and enor mous boots in which even their large bodies were lost. j —(Laughter.) The clothing of tire French troops amounted to 11. 13s. 2d. per man; that of the Prussian troops to 11. 15s. 10d.; while that of the English troops was not less than 3/., more than double that of the French, and almost double that of tt.e Prussian.—(Hear, hear.) So lung, however, as the system of the culoec . s clothing the men continued, so long would this mom trows discrepancy also continue. If the Secretary at War had any interest at all at the Horse Guards, which he did not believe him to have more than any corporal of the army—(A laugh)—he ought to set about the entire alteration of this system. His Honourable Friend had told the House that the Austrian cavalry regiments bad not half the number of officers, as compared with men, that the Euglish regi ments bad; and such was the fact. Yet, was the former inferior to that of the latter? Very far from it indeed; on the contrary, the Austrian regiments could do things in the way of zranceuvrieg that we had no notion of in this country. In an English cavalry regiment what did he find? That there were actually one officer to every seven men on dismonnted parade, and one officer to every six men on mounted parade, whereas in Austria one officer and ono non-commissioned officer were found amply sufficient for every forty men. —(Cheers.) He wanted to know why th e same propor tion would not be found equally efficient here.—(Bear, hear.) Then there was this agency charge of 32,0001. per annum. He wanted to know what this was conti nued for, not to ask why it had ever bent established/ The Indian army, where it might be supposed an agency was wanted, if anywhere, had no agency eLtablishment. This 32,0001. was money actually wasted. Ile would suggest, further, that much good might be done, and a considerable saving effected, he J appointing half-pay officers to situations in the A djutant-General's office, the Quartermaster -General's-office, and other eiimilar esta blishments. Much less salaries would suffice than were paid to the prevent class of officials, whom he found retiring after 40 years' service upon a pension cf 700/. a year, while g enera l o fficers who had actually served their country for 40 years, many of them perhaps occupied in the field against the enemy, and who, moreover, had paid in hard cash for their promotions 4,000/. or 5,0001., were fain to retire upon 4001. per annum—(Hear, hear) —and as to the purchase-money of commissions and promotions, let him observe that the Right Hon. Gentleman had only spoken of the regulation prices, whereas everybody knew that the unfortunate officer had to pay at each step a round sum over and above the regulation price. He was very glad to hear of the contemplated examination of officers; it was an examination which would do good in more ways than one ; for among other things, to educate the officers would open their eyes more widely to the evil and injustice of the system of commissions by purchase. —(Hear, hear.) He was quite satisfied that the various modes which he had indicated fully a million a year might be saved. Expecting no good in this direction from the Committee now s i tt i ng up sta i rs, h e s h ou ld vote with his Hon. Friend. Mr. STANFORD said the Hon. Gentleman seemed to insinuate that there was some particular reason for his (Mr. Stanford's) having left the parochial position to which reference had been made. What did the Hon. Gentleman mean to suggest? Mr. OSBORNE said he had never till that evening heard of the Hon. Gentleman filling any parochial situa tion at all. Colonel CHATTERTON expressed his regret at the reduction made in the allowance for gratuities and medals for meritorious services. He thought, too, that the defective accommodation in barracks should be remedied, for it frequently happened that the ill-con ducted soldier was better cared for in prison than the well-conducted one in barracks. For his own part, with reference; tol the well-being of the soldier, he was most happy that flogging had been in great part done away with, and that they were able to preserve the effective discipline of the army without having recourse to so de grading a punishment; but when Hon. Gentlemen com plained of the private soldier never rising to command in a regiment, how, he should like to know, was a man, without any private means of his own to support the ex penditure incident to such a position and rank? Mr. MUNTZ said that so long as we kept our colo nies he certainly did not see how we were to reduce our army. For his part, h e sa id b y a ll means gi ve up the colonies, since there was no advantage we got from them in a commercial point of view that we should not get such more amply from them if they were independent of us. Not that he wante.l England to cast her colonies cif; no, only if any of them said they were shin to stand on their own bottoms, and would like to leave us, by all means let us reply, " We are much obliged to y ou , t h e sooner you go the better."—(Laughter.) As it was, he Inuit support th, Government on this oecasior. sla;uld support Colon - e 1 SIBTIIOIIP said ho certainly the Government, al(' if the Government had found it necessary to ask for an augmentation of the army, he should have supported it ; Cavendo tutus" w as hi s motto. Colonel REID said that the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that he should possibly be able to announce, in the course of a short time, the np.turc of the exami nation to which of would he subjected previous to their promotion. He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, Kai he prepared to state now what that ex amination would be ? Ilk was to be an cxamination of a character such as that lately adopted on the admission of 'Akers to the service, he should oppose it iu every pos- Bible way. If officers who had been for years serving their country in various; parts of the world were to be subjected to a sort of scholastic exarnineion—if the title to promotion was to be determined by a proficiency in algebra and Cocker, it was sufficient to disgust them. For his own cart, he would rather throw up his commission than be subjected to it. He thought the new regulation perfectly uncalled far; as there never was a period when the officers of the army were so well educated as they now were. The evil at present was, that there was no incentive to proficiency in study iu the military profes sion. Ho would institute an examination of a voluntary and optional character. He would invite the officers to offer themselves as candidates, and he would esta blish a board of examiners, composed of officers of the highest rank, who should examine the candidates upon every branch of their profession. He could not sit down without observing that there never was an occasion to which the observation of the Hon. Member for Dum fries, that the British army was fee most unintellectual one in Europe, so little applied as the present. There was no ground whatever for such an nate tints. Mr. COBDEN said, that while there was an apparent reduction of 4,126 men, there had been 2,230 men trans !erred to India, leaving only 1,896 as the real reduction. There wore also 128 officers less charge I in the ac counts; but the real reduction was only 32, for there were 96 drafted to India. Of all the ranks of officers, down to second lieu ©pants and ensigns, the number last 3 ear was 5,103, while fir the pre erat 3 ear the number was 5,105, so that the reduction, 932, took place amongst the a ljutatite quartermasters, and surgeons. That was sufficient to justify the demand for reform. They draftee off the rank and file—they reducel tile effiestivo force of the army, but they did not reduce the num bers of the offices. With reference to the future force to be kept up, a good deal had been said connecting that question with the course to be taken toward the colonies. No doubt all depended upon the nature of that course, and the Hon. Member for Southwark had cited statistics with respect to the colonies which were sufficient to justify the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose. The present was the time to settle the question, when they were about to grant constitutions to the colonies. If, indeed, they had a voice in framing the estimates, as was the case in France and the United States, the7,case might be different; but they knew nothing of the esti mates until they were laid before them in the House, and the only question submitted to them was, whether they would vote a certain number of men, and on that number would depend the expenditure. There should be no postponement of a decision of his question,, and how, he should ask, could Government reduce the expenditure if the establishments were not reduced? The ought to insert a clause in the colonial constitutions requiring them to maintain the cost of their own police and mili tary establishments. Lord J. MANNERS concurred with the Hon. Mem ber for the West Riding, that the speech of the Hon. Member for Southwark was the only one of all those delivered by the supporters of the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose which offered anything like an argument in its favour. But he thought he could show that the Hon. Gentleman's speech, which was thus so much relied on by the Hon. Member for the West Riding, made rather against the motion, for the Hon. Member considered that 7,500 men only could be struck off; whereas the motion was to strike off 10,000 men. That certainly did not support the conclusion arrived at by the Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Member for Mid dlesex had touched upon the question of the clothing of the army, and he (Lord Manners) would express a hope that in future years care would be taken that no room would be given for those painful and dis graceful discussions with which the country had been startled during the autumn, and that they might be able to entertain the conviction that the clothing of the army would be carried on upon principles of justice and humanity, and that they might not have their con sciences affected by the apprehension that those poor people for whom ao much sympathy had been ex pressed were reduced to a position at once painful and degraded. Sir W. MOLESWORTH explained that what he had said was, that in the colonies, properly so called, the reduction might amount to 7,500 men; but taking our possessions into consideration, the reduction might be much greater—equal certainly to the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose. Colonel DUNNE denied that it would be any advan tage to reduce the number of cavalry officers, for they must have a nucleus for each regiment on its comple ment being completed. He did not think the British cavalry at all over efficient; and with regard to three of our possessions—Gibraltar, Malta, and Corfu, he be lieved the garrisons were not more than sufficient. Ile, had to thank the Secretary at War for the attention which he had paid to the education of the army. Mr. V. SMITH said that the Hon. anel Gallant Officer had alluded to fortresses, while the Hon. Member for Southwark had referred to colonies. He agreed with the Hon. Member for Southwark and the Hon. Member for the West Riding, as to the necessity of reducing the number of troops in the colonies; but he was not pre pared to support the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose, because if they voted a reduction of 10,000 men, the vote would not be understood by the country. Last year the Secretary at War stated to the Committee which inquired into the subject that ho had written to ono of our most important colonies, the Cape, that in future they would have to rely on themselves for defence. His own opinion was, that the troops in some of our colonies ought to be witdrawn, or the expense thrown upon the colonies. He felt convinced that the Kafir wur would never have arisen if we had not had troops in the colony—(Laughter and dissent). A former ear ha .f been more easily suppressed by the inhabitants of the colony than the last war had been by the troops. He agreed with the Hon. Member for the West Riding, that as they were about to leave the colonists to self government, they ought also to leave to them the duty of self-defence (Hear, hear.) Some intimation should be made to the colonists of the policy which Govern ment meant to pursue towards them in this respect. Danger might arise from leaving matters in their pre seat state. Canada had obtained responsible govern ment, and if it inclined to annexation with the United States, our troops in the colony might act, and we should be involved in war—(Hear.) We should therefore come to some understanding with our colonies with regard to their defence. Free trade and the repeal of the Navi gation Act had completely changed the relations be tween us and our colonies; and the time was therefore favourable for entering into some new arrangement with them, so that we might know what to expect from them and they from us. If there was to be a separation, he would have it take place on, good terms, and not on bad.—(Hear.) the increase of the new police. But, if the speech of the Hon. Member fer Reading was extraordinary, that of . the Hon. and Gallant Member for Chippenham was still more so. The one represented the civil reasons in support of the estimates; the other the military reasons. The Hon. and Gallant Member fur Chippenham had said V.a; we kept up a large force in the colonies be cause the people were discoacentel with the mode of government there, and in Ireland beceuse the people were starving. The Hon. and Gallant Membeis receipt for the misery at Kilrush would probably be an addi tional regiment!—(Hear, hear.). The Hon. and Gallant Member seemed to represent the British soldier in the farce, striking his breast and appealing to the honour of the British army, amidst the ready cheers of the audience. He (Mr. Osborne) believed the British soldier to be as honourable, but not more so than• any other British gentleman ; and he confessed that he, for one, would not be disposel to ask the counsel of the British soldier as to what reduc tion should be made :in his profession, as his mind was as liable to he warped as any ether person a. Was not the abolition of flogging resisted from year to year by the members of the military profession? and if it had not been for the lebours of a civilian (he nit ant the Hoe. Member for Montrose), what system of punishment should we have had in the army at the precut moment? —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member fur Chippenharn had expressed greet indignation at the Hon. Member for the West Riding comparing our mili tary System with that of Austria or Prussia. Had the Hon. and Gallant Member forgotten that our military system wee stolen from Prussia —that our infantry was reenceevred upon the Pruslian system? The Hon. and Gallant Member giso said that it was notorious the army was nyder-officered in Indict—forgetting, or not know ing, that it was not the Queen's troops but, the Com pany's troops that were in this situation. His Hon. Friend the Member Cr Montrose had said that there was some , thing in the Ministerial benches that seemed to con . teiminate the men that sat on them. He (Mr. Osborne) did agree with him in that. He believed there was a , power, independent of the Minist:rial benches, which ' would hinder any Government, whether Whig or Tory, from carrying out refo'rm in the army, and that that power proceeded from the Horse Guards.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the Noble Lord at the head of the Go verninent, with the best intentions, and the Right Hon. Gentlemen the Secretary at War, with the best know- I ledge of the subject, would not be allowed to carry their policy into execution while the present system of ma naging the.army prevailed. Why Was not the Horse Guards, the Ordnance Department, and the Commis sariat under the Treasury all combined and placed under one head? Why was there not a Minister of War ap pointed with a seat in the Cabinet, or, if necessary, a seat in that House, as was recommended by the Com mission which sat in 1837? It was evident that ler for Ch , Mr. REYNOLDS regrett e d h e cou ld not support the motion of the Hon. Memb er f or M ontrose. The Hon. and Gallant s ppo r be the m army in l i r p e p iaenti,h R i m rom h a n d feelingstate stated he would u of compassion towards the impoverished people of that country. The Hon. Member for Birmingham had called it a colonial question. It was so in our distant colonies, but in our Irish colony it was a Church Establishment question. Some connexion might he traced in Ireland between the tent and the tabernacle. Ira our Irish colony there were at present 22,000 troops, 12,000 pensioners, and 12,000 constabulary—in round number 3, 44,000 ac tive troops in Ireland, not for the purpose of ministering to the poverty of the people, but for the purpose :of forcing hostile institutions upon the people of that coun try. If the Hon. Member for Montrose had come down manfully, and had moved for the reduction of the tem poralities of the Irish Church—(Question)—and had connected it with a motion for the reduction of the troops in Ireland, he should have supported him. If the mili tary force was to be retained at its present amount, he would have it all quartered in Ireland, so that the peo ple might have the tonefit of the money spent by the troops.—(A laugh.) Alderman SIDNEY said be was a decided friend to retrenchment and economy, and should vote for the mo tion of the Hon. Member for Montrose. The power of paying taxes had been greatly lessened by the measures lately passed by Parliament, and he should vote for this motior, as he should for the motion of the Hon. Member for Surrey to-morrow night. Lord J. RUSSELL would not enter at all into the general question whether there should be a reduction of 10,000 men beyond the reduction of 4,000 men proposed by Government. The statement, however, made by the Hon. Member for Northampton required some notice. As he understood the Hon. Member, he seemed dis posed to lay down the principle, that, as the colonies were to have self- g ov ernmen t, lied as this country had adopted a free-trade policy, the colonies ought to be left to themselves for their own defence. Now he (Lord J. Russell) could not assent to that doctrine. He was com pletely opposed to any excessive or unnecessary military force in the colonies, as he should be to any excessive or superfluous force in the United Kingdom; but he could not consent to lay down the principle that the colo nies should rely on their own resources for their defence. —( Hear.) Ho should rather say that we should proportion our forces to the wants of each colony, according to the circumstances in which they were placed. With respect to our military fortresses, such as Gibraltar, Malts, and the lonian Islands, it had not been denied that the forces were insufficient. With regard to some of the colonies, there had been a considerable reduction in the forces. In Jamaica and in the West Indies generally the force now was 4,500 less than is 1835, and in Australia consider able reductions had been made. The force of 4,000 had been reduced 2,620, making a reduction of 1,380 men. Wherever, indeed, reductions could be made it was de sirable in his opinion to make them; but there were occasions when a necessity existed of sending addi tional forces to the colonies, and in such cases of avert ing danger from the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) Neither should ho think that fortified places in the colonies ought to be left to be guarded by troops raised by the colonists. He should be sorry if we were to withdraw our troops from such a fortress as that of Quebec, and leave Canada to provide for its own defence.—(llear, hear.) Without going, therefore, into the general question, he must decline agreeing to the general principle laid down by the Hon. Member for Northamp ton. He should be ready to reduce the number of our troops in any particular colony, if good reason should be shown for so doing. But he could not agree to the general principle of telling our colonies that they were not hereaf, er to have any assistance from the mother country.—(hear. hear.) Mr. V. SMITH said that in the argument ho had use d b e bad relied on the communication made by Earl Grey to Sir 11. Smith, to the effect that in any future Kafir war the inhabitants of the Cape should rtly upon the mselves. Lord J. RUSSELL said that when his Noble Friend had written that dispatch ho had not intended that the inhabitants of the Care were nut to use the troops that might be in the colony; but had merely meant to state that they should not expect that this country would incur a fresh increase of expenditure to meet a Kafir But that case rather confirmed what he (Lord J. ussell) had said, that each case should stand upon its own merits. New Zealand had not at present a representative constitution, although it might have one in a few years; but this country ought not, 110 &11911014 ou that 6009Un& to from war. it all its military force. It was true that some of the North American states had risen to great prosperity without having had British troops to assist them. But it so happened that, during the early Aistory of those colonies, their inhabitants had been massacred three or four times before the settlement hai been firmly estab Hsi:ed.—(Heer, hear.) He confessed he should have been afraid that, with a population of 100,000 natives of a very werlike character in New Zealand, the English men there might have been similarly massacred, if they had not enjoyed the protection of a military force. Mr. J. B. SMITH said that, in his opinion, the Crown lands ought to be retained by the Crown until the colonies agreed to pay their military and naval expenses. Ste J. WALSH said that the Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire had said he did not under stand how those Members who should then vote against the .motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose could vote on the following (this) evening for the motion of the Hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. H. Drummond). But motions of that description should be judged upon their own merits. He readily admitted that there ought to be as much economy practised as was con sistent. with the due discharge of the public service. But the party with which he had the honour to act was not a popularity-hunting party. They believed that as her Majesty's Government had already effected large reductions in the establishments of this country, and as a certain force was necesssary to the due performance of great public duties, they did not think that in the pre sent circumstances of this country arid of Europe they ought to adopt that proposed reduction of 10,000 men. Perhaps the ;Ilion. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire would allow him to allude to an expression which had been imputed to him in the public journals. The Hon. Member was reported to have said that by some purely pacific process he would crumple up the empire of Russia. He wished to know if the Hon. Member still thought himself capable of performing such a feat. The Hon. Gentleman had some experience of the means by which the prosperity of a great empire was crumpled ; and he (Si r J. W a l sh ) b elieved that if the Hon. Genteman were allowed to go to Russia. and carry on there a system of political agitation, he might succeed to some extent at least in accomplishing his object. But he did not think the Hon. Gentleman would try the experiment ; and for his part he only wished he would. Mr. F. MAULE said a question had been put to him by an Hon. and Gallant Member opposite, to which he wished to give an answer, in order to prevent the pos sibility of a mistake on a subject to which he had al ready alluded. Ho had to state that it was not at pre sent contemplated that the second examination of officers previously to their being appointed captains, should be enforced; but he hoped that that arrangement might hereafter be adopted. He believed that unless the ad vance of the officers in information kept pace with that of the men, the discipline of the army would be shaken or endangered. With reference to th e ques ti on put t b hi m by his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne), on the subject of clothing, ho had to state that he admitted the importance of that matter, but he should then offer no opinion with respect to it, as it would be minutely inquired into and reported upon by the Com mittee up stairs. The Committee would decide whether or not the present practice on the subject should be ad hered to. Mr. HUME replied. After the great increase which had been made to the number of our troops since the year 1835, and the creation since that period of enrolled pensioners, dockyard battalions, and other corps, he felt that he was fully justified in submitting his proposal to the Committee. The Committee then divided, when there appeared— For Mr. Hume's amendment 50 For the original motion ... 223 Majority —173 The vote was then agreed to. The next vote proposed was 1,700,0001. on account fcr deft aying the charges of the land forces. Mr. HUME said he had done his duty. Honourable Gentlemen opposite did not appear to be advocates of financial reform, and as he was not likely to be sup ported in again dividing the House, he would not occupy their attention further. Mr. HERRIES said the present mode of proceeding was a repetition of the course pursued last session, and he considered it a most inconvenient mode of dis patching the public business, fur no opportu nity was afforded of discussing the propriety of different items of expenditure. He should like to know if there was any probability that the investigation of the Committee up stairs would lead to any material reduction in the votes. Ha thought the attention of the Committee of the whole House ought to be directed to the reduction of the expenditure but con sidered the present mode of pro cee di ng h a d a direct ten dency to defeat the object. Lord J. RUSSELL 'agreed that if the present course was taken every year it would be objectionable; but the Committee reported from time to time, and it was de sirable to wait for the report. With regard to the navy estimates and the ordnance, they were placed before the House in the ordinary manner. Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY inquired why there had been an increase in the vote under the head of " movement of troops" to the extent of 14,0001.? Mr. F. MAULE said it had been considered de sirable to effect a general movement of the troops during the past year. It would be extremely inconvenient to keep them three years in the same quartere, and the increased expenditure had been causcu by thu gener al movement. The Yotl was then agreed to. NAVY ESTIMATES. Sir P. BARING rose to make his igatcment on the navy eatimatea, when Captain HARRIS objected to proceed at so late an hour of the evoning.—(" Oh, oh!" and cries of " Go on!") Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would bo a disappoint ment to the House if the financial statement were not made on Friday ; and if the navy estimates were not taken on that night, it would be impossible that it could be then made.—(Bear, hear.) Captain HARRIS had understood that a full discus sion cf the navy estimates would be permitted befno Easter. Mr. J. A. SMITH would move that the Chairman report progress.—(" No, no!") Mr. HUME asked what this statement had to do with the budget? The budget could be proceeded with per fectly well without it.—(A laugh.) After a few words from Mr. GOULBURN, Sir F. BARING said he would only take a vote as to the number of men, a❑d not the wageb.—(llear.) Captain HARRIS, with great deference to the Hon. Gentleman, must say that it was a very unusual course to go at once from one Committee to another.—(" No, no.") He would only say that by this proceeding he was debarred from making a statement that he wished to make on the question " that the Speaker do leave the chair," with reference to manning the navy.—(" Go on, go on.") _ _ Sir F. BARING then proceeded. The vote which be had to propose to the Committee was a vote fixing the number of men at 39,000, and in doing so be would, as was usual on such occasions, bring before them a state ment of the general features of the different votes to which he would hereafter have to call their attention. The first vote to which he had to allude was one that he should bring forward with the more regret if he did not entertain the hope that it would be the last vote of that character that the Committee would be called upon to make—ho meant the vote for making up the deficit of a former year.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask taem to vote for the deficiency of 1848-49 the sum of 211,0001., by which in that year the expenditure had gone beyond the estimates. This the House was aware had occurred on many previous occasions; and it would perhaps be re collected that the late First Lord of the Admiralty stated last year that the deficit was likely to be from 250,0001. to 260,0001. It had not, however, reached that sum. He had always been of opinion, on whatever side of the House he happened to be, that the mode of making up by the Votes of a subsequent year the deficiency of former estimates was a most unfortunate course to pursue; but it was a course not uncommon of late years. One of the causes from which this arose was the insufficiency of the sum voted for the number of seamen borne. All who were on the Committee of 1848 were aware that this incorrect mode of laying the esti mates came on very gradually, the evil being very small at first, but becoming serious and important in the end. —(Hear, bear.) The sum voted for the number had been constantly below what was really necessary; besides which it was well known that the vote for wages was at best but a very loose statement, merely an approximate estimate, and that the excess expended over the esti mate was generally very considerable.—(Hear, hear.) It was also to be noted that in 1848, when the estimates were proposed, the House baring received them was so adverse to their passing that lower estimates were brought forward. The Government were anxious, as far as possible, to come within the lower estimates thus made, but it was found extremely difficult in so short a time as was allowed them to reduce the expenditure to the extent required, and the result had been that the expenditure, though below the general estimate, was not below the estimate subsequently given in. These things would in some measure account for the deficiency now to be made up •, but he was happy to say that this course would not be pursued on a future occasion. —(Hear, hear.) He was able to state that though there had been expenses they were not prepared for, yet there would be a surplus for the year 1849-50 such as would enable them to meet in some de gree the deficiencies of 184 S-49. lie would now proceed with the general statement of the estimates. He gave for the effective service for 1850-51 a sum 014,325,086/ ; for the non-effective 5ervi1ce5,,01,03081.8:6371.; add t o t hi s for ' the conveyance of troops 5 764,2361., and they h a d a totalandservice of for the packet- 6,613,6591.—(Hear, hear.) As compared with 1849-50, the reduction in the effective service was 4 06,9721, non-effective service, 5,5331., conveyance of troops, 11,0001.—in all, 624,005/.; deducting 16,0001. for increase in the packet•service, it amounted to 608,005/. But that was not quite a fair comparison. Comparing the expenditure of 1848-49 with the estimates of 1850 51, Vie ens() stood thus:— expenditure for 1848-49, 7,9 47 , 3761 .; estimate for 1850-51, 6 613,6591.; Lotng• a difference of 1,333,7171.—(Cries of " hear, hear.") He was auxi ous to state to the House that great and important advantages bad been derived from the labours of the Committee of 1848, because it would show that their re commendations had not been neglected; and he also whed to state that he took no credit to himself for the reductions that had been made, because they had been enabled to carry them into effect by the expenditure of former years. But for the expenditure that had formerly been made in several instances, it would have been im possible now to have made the reductions that had been effected. Taking the three votes together—rameiy, for men,_ wages, and rictuallio g , the redu c ti o n inconsequen ce of the proposed reduction of 1,000 men would be about 50,0001. The Committee recommended that an altera tion should be made in the mode of estimating the wages of the men which had been for many years adopted. That which was considered a great source of incorrect peas had hew altered, and the estimate fer the last year was made in the mode introduced by his Right Hon Friend (Sir J. Graham) taken he was First Lord of the Adiniralt ,- . to which it was found convenient again to have reeonise. The next and most important point ► wes that the number of men borne on the books should be kept within the number voted by Parliament. To do I that without any deviation was almost impossible. The most at , entive Board of Admiralty could not always bring the number of men within the vote. But so far as the last year was concerned they had been able to carry out that object, and with the exception of the first month it would he found that the monthly returns of the num ber of men voted had been below the number voted. It was for the purpose of attaining that end that the Com mittee recommended monthly returns, which it would, be found had been accordingly adopted. It was pro posed to make a reduction of 1,000 moan in the marine force. But in speaking of the number of men to be employed he must be permitted to observe flint that was it subject in regard to which, t o a certain degree, con fidence must be placed in the Governmeet. It was not easy to give all the particular reason s why the Govern ment should fix upon any certain number of more That must rest a great deal upon circumstances which it ;night not be convenient to state. But be could say, that on the Ist of April, 1848, the number of men actually bcrnc on the books was 46,000, wh ereas the number voted for the present year was 35,000 men; but though 46,000 men were borne on the books in 1848, yet 43,000 men only were voted that year. Under present circum stances the Government bad carried the reduction as far as theycould consistently with the efficiency of the service. The Committee might wish to learn the distribution of the men. There were in the East Indies, China, awl New Zealand, 2,748; Cape of Good Hope, 793; Africa, 2,452; South-Eastern Americo, 993; Pacific, 2,618; North America and West Indies, 1,877; Mediterranean, 7,959; Lisbon, 3,096; home ports (Ireland and Scotland), 5,130; packet service, 683; surveying service, 852; troop-ships, particular service yachts, 762; ordered home. or paying off, 1,310; and fitting out, 1,651. Intimately connected with the distribution of the men was the , number of ships in commission. From the Ist of January, 1850, the total ships of the line in commis sion was 13; advanced an ordinary 58; build.. ing 15, of which three were ready to be launched. There were frigates in commission 9; advanced an in ordinary 58; building 8; and three of which were ready to be launched. Vessels like frigates in commission, 92; advanced and ordinary, 79; building. 4; of which there were ready to be launched, 1. Of steam-vessels there were in commission 88; advanced and in ordinary, 68; building, 11-and of which there was one ready to be launched. So that there were 202 ships in commission ; 263 advanced and in ordinary, and 38 building ; and 6 of these ships were ready to be launched. Before quitting this part of the subject he would state that it was the inten tion of the Government to reduce the number of officers in the marine corps in proportion to the number of men that were reduced. • A certain number of captains would therefore retire. It had been thought advisable to select for that purpose those officers who were at the head of the list, and to allow them to retire on full pay rather than take the young captains and place them on half-pay, and to be recalled afterwards on service. This would add to the efficiency of the corps, and would be felt as a fair portion of favour to the marine. With regard to the victualling department, there would not only be a reduction by reason of the number of men being reduced, but also in consequence of the cheapness of provisions enabling the Admiralty to enter into more favourable contracts. There was one subject of deep interest to the whole service, but which he was not yet prepared to bring before the Committee-he meant the question of grog. It had occupied the attention of the Admiralty for some time; and the question had been laid before a com mittee of naval officers; and he hoped before long to lay the result of their labours before the House, and to be prepared with some proposal on the subject. The next vote was that for the Admiralty-office in which also there was a reduction. The Committee had realm. mended that the number of those holding office in that department should be fixed by order in Council, and that no excess of salary should be taken without the sanction of the Treasury. This plan had been adopted in effect, though not exactly in words. The Admiralty had gone back tee the old system of having the establishment set tled by order in Council. The Committee had observed that a large quantity of extra work was done by the clerks of the office, and they recommended that the system should cease. That recommendation would be acted upon; at the same time, it must be observed that when so many returns were required to he made to Parliament, it was not possible to get them ready with out the assistance of extra clerks. He could, however, state, that during the last year ten clerks had been re duced at the Admiralty, at Whitehall, and at Somer. set-house. Another arrangement had been made, which was much in accordance with the opinion of the Committee, and by which the whole steam de partment was placed under the control of the Surveyor of the Navy. His early attention, had been turned to this point, and an opportunity having offered of placing the person who had hitherto superintended the steam de partment of the navy in another situation, he had placed the whole of that department, together with the building department, under the authority of the Surveyor of the Navy. He was not quite sure that his Gallant Friend would be able to perform all the duties connected with that department without further assistance; mall, as his Gallant Friend was so confident that he would be able to do so, he (Sir F. Boring) had bowed to his opinion, and had entirely abolished the controllership of the eteam department. In the surveying and scientific department a very considerable reduction had been effected, rartieu larly with regard to the construction of harbours. He now came to the dockyard esta)lishrsents. The salaries to officers and wages to workmen of the dockyards, both at home and abroad, he should deal with under ono head. Upon the estimate for that head of the present 3 ear, as compared with that of last year, there was a reduction of 81,0001. ; and, as compared with that of 1848-9, 130,0001. The whole of the yards at home had been examined and the expendi ture checked !.y the Lords of the Admiralty with the assistance of Sir B. Walker, and by those means a con sidcraele reduction had been effected. Abroad the work was not quite so pleasing, but the Admirals on the sta tions had been required, either themselves to go into the different items of expenditure, or to appoint a com mittee ef officers for the purpose; and in that way each. yard abroad had been examined and reported; and the result had been souse small repletion. He would state the number of workmen employed in the dockyards on the Ist of April, 1848-9, as compared with the number for the Ist of April, 1849-50. The reduction began on the Ist of January, 1848, when there wore on the esta blishment 9,290. On the Ist of April the number had increased to 9,519; on the Ist of April, 1849, it was 9,630, and on the Ist of April, 1850, it would be 9,621. In addition to that number there was an im mense number of hired workmen not on the establish ment. On the Ist of January, 1848, the total number of those on the establishment and those who were not was 12,218, on the Ist of April, 1848, 11,430; on tho Ist of April, 1849, 10,142, and on the Ist of April, 1850, the number estimated was 9,621; and there were slate some temporarily employed as spinners for penis cuter dockyards, but that would terminate when that particular work was over. The number so employe d was 420, making for the Ist of April, 1850, 10,041, being a reduction of 2,177. as compared with the number ein the Ist of January, 1848. Again, on the Ist of Awl!, 1849, the number of men employed in the factories at Woolwich and Portsmouth was 1,856. The number l )ro posed to be taken this year was 1,155, being a reduction of 701. He did not mean to Fay that in future y ears there might not be some further reductions under the same head, but for the present he considered that !2,000 workmen being reduced since the Ist of January, 1848, and 700 in the ficturies since the fat of April, 1849, was as far as he could go with a due regard to the efficiency of the service. The recommendation, indeed, of the Committee had been, that these establishments should be fixed by an order in Council. Since the estimates had been framed the Government had been enabled to enter into a contract fur the packet service between Kingstown and Holyhead upon reasonable terms, part of which was that the parties should hire the Government fac tories at Holyhead; and consequently, so far as the Go vernment was concerned, there was no danger to the packet establishment. Another recommendation and strongly urged by y ropos t e h d em by was s e Committeeammitthtee justice of whi c h e ho fully admitted was incontest Lisle. They recom mended that in the selection of officers for superinten dents of yards the Government should not think it ne cessary to confine themselves to the older officers of the service, but should select those who were most fitted for the duties. He was well aware that in adopting that recommendation he had disappointed the expectations of man y gallant officers, but he had felt it his duty to carry that recommendation into effect, knowing that there was nothing upon which the efficiency of the department and the expenditure so much depended as on the eye of the superintendent of the yards, without which all regu lations would be useless. He now came to that part which was one of the moat important votes-the store vote. The Committee had made a recommendation upon an extremely difficult part of that subject - the supply of o a k. Th e sup ply h a d been practically a That pamrtny nopoly in th e b an d s of a certain party. Was dead, and fur the present yearc there had been a contract with a new party.sTheareduction in this vote bad been very considerable, erbe. The vote for this wytewtahirthth th at was oft last 7 1 8 a ' s b 5 t f year, 9 9 i. 8 8 o o f bein g and n 2 d 90 a reduction, ,2 1 7 8 0 4 1. 9 , sad a a s s compared compared 556,0 - l The . principle upon which the Govern ment 2 proposed l to act was to take the principal stores as they stood in 1849, and, calculating on the average ex penditure which would be expended in the course of the next year, to take the estimate for that which would re place the amount actually expended. Therefore, a lthough there was a groat reduction, th e y were not go ing to work on the old stores, but proposed to keep the stores in a wholesome state and leave them as they found them last year. As to manufactured articles, he was not so fond of stores as with regard to timber and raw mate riel,. Li the pre tent slate of steam machinery it was advisable nut to keep large stores of steam , engines. Improvements were always going on, and he thought it better now not to expend large sums in such stores. With respect to new works, as compared with last year there was a considerable reduction. The estimate for 18.18.9 was 626,0001. For the present year it was 324,000/., being a reduction of 300,000/. in consequence of the works which had been carried on at Portsmouth, and those which had been commenced at other places by hislamented predecessor having been completed. At that late hour it would not be necessary for him to go at any length into th e c h arges for the m iscellaneous services connected with the navy; but he might say, generally, that in those portions of the estimates the recommen dations of the Committee had been in great part adopted. As to the non-effective votes, the Committee had made two recommendations, which the Board of Admiralty were enabled to carry out-one of these was, that O ne lieutenant should be promoted for every three vacancies, she ether was the lhaitetioa the otunbfir of ostlets to -......,...... 64 4. 0, , rnE IA 0 SDAY EVENING, MARCH 12, .1850