The Sun. — London, England, 1850-05-25 00:00:00

remained to England was France. If those questions were brought forward, and they ought to be brought forward, and if every oneof those complaints was well founded, he was not wrong in stating that the policy of the Noble Lord had revolutionised Italy. It seemed that the only thing which the Noble Lord could say was, that all Europe had been revolutionised, and that Eng land bad remained free. If we were in that posi tion, was it noble, generous, or just, to send agents into other countries to disseminate revolutionary principles ? All he (Mr. B. Cochrane) could say was, that the Governments of Italy, and of every other coun try, said that they attributed their calamities to the in. tervention of Lord Palmerston.—(Hear, bear.) Lord PALMERSTON said he could only say that the speech which he had just heard led him to alter an opinion which he had formed, namely, that it was desirable that an English gentleman should travel abroad in order to understand foreign affairs.— (Cheers and laughter.) It certainly appeared to him that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. B. Cochrane) was quite as good a judge of foreign affairs before he went abroad. —(Renewed laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman could scarcely have read the dispatches of Lord Minto. Mr. B. COCHRANE—I have read every one of them. Lord PALMERSTON said, then he was sorry to hear that the Hon. Gentleman's time had been mis spent, for the perusal had left but little impression on his mind.—(Laughter.) The mission of Lord Miato was never intended to effect a revolution in Italy, nor was it attended with that effect. Lord Minto had had a totally different object in view, and that was to save those states from revolution. (Cheers.) He (Lord Palmerston) must say, his opinion undoubt edly was that it the advice which Lord Miuto was instructed to give when asked, but not till asked, had been more generally followed, many disastrous consequences which they now deplored would not have taken place.—(Hear, hear.) The country which irst asked Lord Minto's advice was the kingdom of Sardinia, and it was a proof of the soundness of the advice of his Noble Friend (Lord Minto), that Sardinia was almost the only one of those states which enjoyed tranquillity, order, and constitutional govern meat.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches, and a de risive laugh from the Opposition.) Lord CLAUD HAMILTON said that the Noble Lord had certainly shown a very singular proof of the good effect of Lord Minto's advice. He hoped that it was not in consequence of that ad vice that Sardinia had committed those hostile aggressions which, but for the extraordinary forbear ance of the attacked power, would have led to an hos tile occupation of her own territory. Lord PALMERSTON said that so far from this ag gression of Sardinia upon the Lombard territories having been the result of any advice of Lord Minto, the papers on the subject would prove that this Government had made repeated remonstrances on this proceeding. The House then went into Commi,t2e of Supply, Mr. BERNAL in the chair. On the motion that a vote of 83,1601. be granted to her Majesty for the expenses of the Royal palaces and public buildings, Colonel SALATEY moved that the sum of 5931., for the maintenance and repairs of the Military Knights' houses in Windsor Castle, be disallowed. He con sidered that it was a public robbery that the Dean and Chapter of Windsor should continue to draw a revenue originally 600/, and now swelled up to 22,0001. per aunties, which had been granted to them on the condition thatthey maintained these poor Knights of Windsor, and that they, the Poor Knights, should only continue to receive a common day-labourer's wages, and in additioe that the public should be taxed to re pair their house. Sir G. GREY said that the house in which the military knights lived was a part of Windsor Castle, and it Ras on that account that it appeared in the votes. As to the right of the Poor Knights to share in the in creased revenues of the Dean and Chapter of Windsor, that was a legal question, and their renedy was open to them in another place. The question had been submitted to his predecessor, the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Rpon, and the opinion of two of the law officers of the Crown, the prssent Chief Baron and the late Sir W. Follett, had been taken upon it, not certainly to the advantage of the Knights. After some observations frena Colonel SALWEY, Colonel THOIII 3 'iON trusted his Gallant Friend would divide on this sti . jects Lord SEYMO U it said that the only effect of dividing in the pestion would be to leave the Poor Knights of Windsor without a home. Sir DE LACY EVANS thought the object of the mation was laudable, but, after the observations of the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests, he thought it would be better to withdraw the present motion and bring forward a more comprehensive one on another opportunity. The gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place, the emendteent having been withdrawn. M:. COS'DEN observed a charge for repairs and fur niture in the British Ambassador's house at Paris. He wished to know whether, in addition to the rent of that establishment, this country was liable to a charge for furniture? Lord SEYMOUR was understood to say that the barge for furniture only applied to the official rooms of the embassy. Colonel SIBTHORP, referring to the charge for re airs at Buckingham Palace, wished to know whether, in addition to the grants made by the House, some additional sums were nut paid by the Woods and Foreate? Mr. HA YTER did not believe that any sum of money whatever was expended on Buckingham Palace, exec pf. with the cognizance of the House. The Woods ad Forests undoub'edly took care of the Royal parks— ("Oh, oh," from Colonel Sibthorp, followed by great laughter). Colonel SIGTHORP said ho should like to know what had become of no marble arel? The vote was then agreed to. 22,0001. for additionr, alterations, and fittings at the Ordnunee-oftice, Mr. COBDEN wished to know if the estimate would over the whole r‘xperse? TiaeCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It will. The vote was agreed to. 14,6721. to defray the expense of making an orna mental enclosure and forming a public garden in front of Buckingham Palace. In answer to a question by Lord JOCELYN, Lord SEYMOUR said that it was intended to _place the marble arch near Stafford House and the Green Park. No portion of ground would be taken from the .pub:ic in any way, and they would have access to the gardens. _ _ - Mr. OSBORNE asked if the vote included all the ex penses neetaisary. Perhaps the House was not aware that altogether the arch had cost the country 120,0001. What was meant by groundwork of the garden? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed that it would not do to leave the arch where it was. Various sites for it had been under consideration, and the best appeared :o be that locality opposite the stable yard at the entrance to the Mall. It was proposed to replace the wooden boarding in front of Buckingham Palace with an iron palisade, similar to that which formerly existed, and to Lrtn two plots of garden in front of it at the upper end of St. James's Park, to which the public will be admitted.—(Hear.) St. James's Park was a place of great resort, and he was happy to say that, notwithstanding the number of people who went there, no injury bad ever been done to the shrubs or flowers. The proposed flower-gardens would not only heighten the architectural appearance of the palace, but would enlarge the space devoted to the recreation of the public. The present vote was not all that would be ne cessary to complete the design. Mr. GOULBURN remarked that there were two dis tinct questions in the vote—the making an ornamental garden, and the completing the repairs of the palace and the removal of the arch. Notwithstanding the clear statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was impossibl e for the House to understand what ground was to be taken for the proposed gardens, and he should sug gest that it, would be more convenient if the Govern ment were to lay a plan on the table of the alterations proposed.—(Hear, hear.) As to the arch, he had some doubts a to the p ropr i ety of placing it in the centre of the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that DO ground was to be taken from the public, e x ce pt a small strip in front o f the iron T o a ll t h e other portions itted of the proposed flower-gardens gs.rdens the publi c wou ld be adm. Mr. OSBORNE thought if this was only a part of the s um necessary, the more prudent way would be to po pone the vote till the whole estimate was before the ". %1 . He should move i ts postponement. m. Mr. BERNAL — It is not competeonft t foro v 0 lion. Member to move the " postponement" Mr. OSBORNE—Then I move it be negatived. Mr. DRUMMOND thought, that before Placing the arch in the place proposed, they should i ascertai n whe ther a coach could be t aken through t.—(oh.) It was said that the arch in t he Victoria Tower would admit of this. — (Hear , hear.) W 0 as he to understand not n yards was to cost that the removing of the a rch 10,000/.?—(No, no.) The vote 30 was " for the removal cot of the arch, and making an approach to Buckingham Palace." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that sum included making the enclosures, erecting the iron palisade in front cf tho palace, and removing and erect ing the arch, Mr. V. SMITH was anxious to see the arch removed, but thought that sufficient explanation of the plans had not been given. Colonel SIBTLIORP expressed his intention of sup porting the lion. Member for Middlesex. The country was not in so prosperous a condition as to warrant these expenditures for repairs, alterations, and decorations. Lord SEYMOUR remarked that to negative the vote would be to leave the arch where it was. The items of the vote were —removal of the arch about 4,0001. ; iron railings to the palace, 6,0001. ; 5 per cent. commission on the expenditure to the arch itect. —(Laughter, with an exclamation, " There is no architect.") The 'expense this year would be about 14;000L, and probably the whole expense about 26,0001. Mr. S. HERBERT thought as there TM a technical objection to any Member moving the postponement of the vote, the Government should of themselves postpone it.—(Bear, hear.) No one wished the arch to remain in its present position, but he would sooner see it remain there for a few months, than have it removed to an in appropriate site. The arch itself was a most beautiful work of art, and ought to be placed in a suitable situa tion. He believed it was an intention of Lord Lincoln, when at the head of the Woods and Forests, to propose a continuation of the Mall eastward through Spring -gar dens to Charing-cross, and that the arch should be placer? at the east entrance, exactly opposite to Bucking ham Palace-gate, at the other end of the Mall. With regard to the present plan he thought the House ought not to act precipitately, and hoped tneGoyernment would THE SUN, postpone the vote till some explanatory plan was on the table.—(Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER recol lected talking with Lord Lincoln on the subject of his plan, but thought that the expenditure necessary to ob tain the ground would be a formidable objection to it. But with regard to the arch, it must go.—(A laugh.) He agreed that a scheme of this sort should be well con sidered, and was perfectly ready to adopt the sug gestion of the Right Honourable Gentleman to postpone the vote.—(Hear.) Vote accordingly postponed. 3,1294 to defray the expense of providing temporary accommodation for the Houses of Parliament. Mr. OSBORNE called the attention of the Committee to the questions connected with this vote. He wished to know who was responsible for the expenditure of the money for the new Houses? He was sorry to see around him so beggarly an account of financial reformers, when a vote of this kind was to be discussed. In 1837 a Com mittee of the two Houses sanctioned the estimate given in by Mr. Barry of 707,104L—(Hear, hear.) But there had been already spent 2,045,9231.—(Hear, hear.) In the report of the Committee it was stated that this estimate of Mr. Barry was not to be considered as having their sanction. In feet it was no estimate at all. There were included in it a sum of 497,0001. for furni ture and decorations. The useful portions of the build ing ought to be completed in the first instance. Mr. Barry had promised that the building would be com pleted in six years. It was now sixteen years since it was boguu, and it was not yet finished. In 1837 Lord Duncannon stated that the expenses of the building would act exceed 124,000/. ',Let the House compare that with the estimate sanctioned by the Commission in 1849. He wished to know who was the party responsible for spending the money? The Hon. Member for Lancaster was merely a sort of scapegoat in the matter, and had no control or responsibility. There was little or no control over the architect. In 1844 Mr. Barry stated to the Committee that the Woods and Forests had never asked for a plan, and that ho could not tell what the ultimate cost of the whole building would be. Unless the House interfered, there was no saying what the ex pense would amount to. In 1848, the Noble Lord at the bead of the Government, speaking on this question, said that he hoped the estimate would not be excessive; but as to being responsible for an architect, that was out of the question. Lord J. RUSSELL--That is not a correct statement. Mr. OSBORNE—It was takea from Hansard. In 1844 the Lords' Committee reported that Mr. Barry had departed from the original plan, and had made altera tions to it without any authority, and they called the attention of the House to the subject. With regard to one branch of the expenditure, it appeared that the Com mittee of 1841 estimated the expense of warming and ventilating the House of Commons at 86,0001. It had already cost--not including the nine boilers-124,0001. —(Hear, hear.) He believed it was not competent for him to move in Committee the resolutions he had,placed on the votes, but he should certainly move that the vote be negatived unless a correct estimate of the furnishings be supplied. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exche quer would be able to give them an assurance that the House would soon be finished—that no commissioners of fine arts would be allowed to increase the expenditure or delay the works, and that they would be told whether those extraordinary shelves lately introduced into the House of Commons were intended for galleries, or merely receptacles for the journals of the House. Sir DE LACY EVANS said he did not wish to in terpose between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and any statement he might have to make, if that was not a regular time for him to introduce the motion which ho had on the paper. Mr. BERNAL (Chairman) said the vote before them was a sum of 3,1291. for the temporary accommodation of the Commons. Mr. OSBORNE said he expected some explanation on the question. Captain BOLDEFtO complained that every expense connected with the House of Commons had not been put under one head, as it ought to have been. The vote was then agreed to. The CHAIRMAN next put the question that a sum not exceeding 154,6601. should be granted to her Majesty for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the works at the new Houses of Parliament for the year ending the 31st of March, 1851. The CHANCELLOR if the EXCHEQUER had no wish to avoid giving explanations; but, on the contrary, was glad the Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Os borne) had afforded him the opportunity of making them. The Hon. Gentleman said that after the old Houses of Parliament were destroyed, six years was the time which they were told it would take to replace them; but the House teaust remember that the reason why the works had not proceeded at so rapid a rate was, because the adequate means had never b een vote d f or the purpose. A commission existed for superintending the arrangements ' of the new Houses, and an adequate control was given over the expenditure, but the House must recollect that, after all, the House of Commons itself was mainly re- sponsible for the great expenditure that had been in curred, because it was not the Government of the day, but a Committee of the two Houses of Parliament, which had selected the architect and decided on the design that should be adopted and on the whole framework if the new buildings. The power of the Government to interfere in the matter was overruled by the masters of the Government in such cases—the House of Commons. The Honourable Gentleman corn pleined that a large sum of the excessive expenditure was incurred on the responsibility of the architect him self. Now that was not the fact. He had seen Mr. Barry only that day. and was informed by him that, to the bass cf his belief, on that part of the works included wilVa his original estimate of 707,0001., there had been no excess ef expenditure at all. A considerable number of alterations and additions had been made that were not included within that estimate, and in 1344 a Committee of this House sat on the subject, and investigated the expenditure. That Committee imputed no blame to Mr. Berry, but expressed its belief that all the alterations made conduced to the convenience and general effect of the building; and, in reply to a question which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had put to him that morning, Mr. Barry distinctly stated that no expen diture of any considerable amount ha 1 been incurred, excepting in strict accordance with the plans and designs submitted to that Committee. The expendi ture up to 1847 was certainly 1,016,000/.; but then it must be remembered that Mr. Barry's original estimate was for the building alone, and did not include the par chase of site (which cost 82,0001.), nor the River-ter race, which required another 139,0001. And in refer ence to Mr. Barry's estimate in 1849, that everything connected with the buildings would require an aggre gate expenditure of about 2,000,000/., it shouldtbe recol lected that the following items were included in the es timate of 2,000,000/., but not in the original estimate of 707,0001., namely, purchase of site, embankment of river, extra cost of foundations, approaches, alterations of all kinds sanctioned in consequence of the recommen dations of. the Committee, and the suggestions of Mem bers, additional warming and ventilation, fireproofing, gas and water fittings, pictures, decorations, furniture, and incidental charges. The Honourable Gentleman said there was no check or control over the ex penditure. Now of course, as Chancellor of the Ex chequer, he was responsible, as far as his dis cretion wont on this subject, as much as he was for any other class of expenditure; but it was clearly not within his province to set himself in oppo sition to the decisious of this House. The only addi tional expenditure whi c h h e h ad sanctioned sinc e 1844 was about 7,0001., and he thought the outlay justified by the objects which it attained. The principal of those items were 1,500/. for improving the main sewer, 1,200/. Sur the smoking-room, and 3,0001. fur conveniences to the library. All this outlay was made on the recom mendation of the Commissioners. With regard to the Hon. Gentleman's motion, two of the estimates now moved for by him were already upon the table of the House. His (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) in tention was to take such a sum this year as would com plete all that portion of the building which would be necessary to enable the House to sit in the new building next session, with the library and corridors requisite for that purpose. He had made inquiries as to how much would be required by the contractor for that object, end also enable the other parts of the building to be gone on with slowly, so as to avoid loss, and he found that 154,660/. would be sufficient. He hoped he had now said enough to satisfy the House that no such excess of expenditure over the original estimate as the Hon. Gen tleman suppose had actually taken place, and that every reasonable check upon the outlay was afforded. Sir B. HALL could not understand how the original estimate bad been so much exceeded. The architect should have known the probable expenses of the foun dation when he sent in that estimate, and yet he had led the public to suppose that the building could be com pleted for 707,0001. The Hon. Baronet then referred to the report of the Committee of the House of Lords, which stated that according to the evidence of Mr. Barry certain departures had taken place from the origi nal plans. _ The CHANCELLOR of th e EXCHEQUER sa id h e had si s r ta ß t . ed what had been sancti o n e d by t h e C omm itt ee of 1844. HALL said he was stating what was the fact. — (Hear, hear. ) In 1837 Mr. Barry had furnished plans h w y a calcul a t e d hieetapp e e n ar . ed ßa t l h tf a t t h a a n t h e a x d pe h n e d e i n tur e e x o oe f ed 7 o o d 7,o to oo a /. c h o u n il s d id a er m ab e l e e s a ie m e o fuenr t. , p r whichi va t e costto architect6o,oo Ol e w w o h u e l d hadthe d y e 2 e e 0 o: tv0e0d10)11 them er to) in l..i such a manner? So original contract had it was in the present case. j e latent. Disputes, it been exceeded to a very auf a i rry and Dr. Reid appeared, had arisen between lee e hese had led to as to the ventilation of the House , additional expense. On that subject , believed he had never been i n a chamber which w he beeter ventilated and warmed th an t h at in which they then sat—(Hear, hear)—and he had never heard of place where, at all seasons, whether full or empty, the a thermometer varied so few degrees. He hoped, there fore, that Dr. Reid would still continue to ventilate and warm that House. Mr. GREENE said, the return of last year showed both the original estimate and the expenses occasioned by alterations, and they had also a tolerably clear esti mate of what was intended to be dose. He had no de sire to relieve Mr. Barry from any responsibility which might fairly attach to him, but it was only just that the House should take its own fair share had h reof that eeeper petually brought under their notice fromresponsi bility, inasmuch as all this expendit ure and had received their sanction. Many alte y r e a a ti r to year, ons were instance, the at the express instance of the House; f o r the removal of th e seats appropriated to Mem b ers be hind the Speaker's chair. It was argu ed that fa Commit tee, anmit. archi tect ought not to depend on the discret i on o tee, but should be able to judge for himself as to what would he the proper !accommodation; but, however true this might be in the case of ordinary buildings, it by no means followed that it must be equally true in the case of a building like this, with respect to which the archi tect had scarcely any previous experience to guide him '_J~J. LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MA Y 25, 1850. Again, an alteration bad been made in the disposition of the benches. Origint.lly there were six rows, but on being tested, this proved so inconvenient that it was found necessary to remove one row, and an encroach ment was consequently made on the space devoted to strangers. Sir W. CLAY thought the Hon. Member for Middle sex had hardly made sufficient allowance for the great difficulties with which Mr. Barry had had to contend. All who had dabbled in bricks and mortar knew how hard a matter it was to keep within original estimates. If this was difficult when only one employer was to be consulted, how much more so must it be when there were a thousand, every individual of whom was at liberty to make suggestions and raise objections?— (Hear, hear.) It must be remembered that Mr. Barry had to deal with one of the largest buildings in the world, devoted to various purposes, and with respect to which he had scarcely any experience to guide him. After all that hai been said he believed the event would prove that Mr. Barry had solved the difficulty, and they would find themselves in a very comfortable and cer tainly very handsome House, though he did not believe it could be more comfortable than the one in which they now sat. It was impossible to attempt an adequate de fence of Mr. Barry, because that would involve the necessity of going through minute details to which the House would never listen ; but the account fur nished at the beginning of 1849 appeared to him to contain his complete dot ence.—(An ironical cheer from Mr. Osborne.) One cause of the increase of expense was the enormous cost of the founda tions, and another the arragements for ventilation. He quite agreed with the Hon. Member for Marylebone that there never was a better ventilated chamber than the one in which they now sat; and any one who remem bered the deadly atmosphere of the old house on a crowded night must feel grateful to Dr. Reid. Perhaps, however, it was a mistake to give him co-ordinate power with Mr. Barry in making the arrangements. With re spect to the alterations, they had been approved by the Committee, and the explanation of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer showed how slight they had been since 1844. It had become very much the fashion to undervalue the design, but speaking the opi nions of many more competent judges than himself, he had no hesitation in saying that it would be a noble and magnificent work, and would reflect high honour on the architects when they were gathered to their fathers. If objections might with justice be made to the site and order of architecture, let it be remembered that the Le gislature was answerable for both. He doubted now whether they had made a wise choice as to the latter.— (Hear ' hear.) It was v e ry we ll t o say " h ear, h ear, " now; but Hon. Members should recollect that the order was chosen almost unanimously. Probably the flowing continuous lines of Grecian architecture might have been better adapted to so vast a pile; but taking it all in all, he believed it would be as fine a specimen of archi tecture as the world had ever seen. Mr. H. DRUMMOND thought their constituents had some right to ask how it was that they had been spend ing so many millions for a House cf Commons, which, after all, they bad not go!.--(llear, hear.) Probably, as had been observed, Parliament itself might be to blame, but it did appear to him very extraordinary that Com mittees' consisting of su c h very i nte l l i gent gentlemen, who had approved of these places, should have rested content with seeing one great wide space in the middle of the building called a [louse of Lords, and another wide space called a House of Commons, and not have thought it necessary to inquire whether it would hold the requisite number. It could be no very difficult mat ter to ascertain. They haet only to take the fattest re presentative and multiVi3, him b y 658. _ (Laughter.) Sir W. CLAY too large. —, 'tau would hare had a House twice Mr. Hs DRUMMOND—It was certainly the greatest that a set of intelligent men should have sane lajibosnileduitthYe construction of a chamber totally unfit f,l. its purpose.—(Hear.) Ho had not the smallest doubt that Mr. Barry must have had very considerable difficulties to contend with, and did not think it at all fair to lay all the blame on his shoulders; but on this they might de pend, that cut and contrive as they would, they would he obliged to knock down the end ef their House of Commons in order to extend their building. He had had acme experience, and knew that there was no more difficult eubject in the whole range of practical science. He knew many houses belonging to groat noblemen and gentlemen of wealth in which immense sums of money had been expended for the purpose of warming them, but he did not know of a single successful instance. Al! complained of being in ice cellars. No one seemed anxious to assume the responsibility of the building. Every one said to Mr. Barry, " You are no child of mine." It would be wise to put an end to all this dis play of ornament—these pictures, which, if sent through Europe, would not fetch 5/. a piece. He know, however, that it was of no use to run counter to public opinion. They were all lovers of the fine arts, and thought it was only necessary to have money to get as many Raphaels and Michael Angelos as they wished, forgetting that art was not to be created by money. They might, how ever, console themselves with the reflection that all these brilliant external ornaments were not altogether thrown away, for they would make the most magni ficent menagerie of swallows' and sparrows' nests in the world.—(Laughter.) Colonel SIBTHORP thought the House might have rested well contented where they were. Ha called at.. tention to the fact that some parts of the new building were alrerdy crumbling in consequence of the state in which the stone was worked. He agreed with the Hen. Member for Middlesex that they ought not to vote away the public money without inquiry, and they had no sa tiJactory statement from the Chancellor of the Exche quer as to what they would have to pay. A greater waste of money was never perpetrated than in building these houses, which, after all, would never be calculated for public business. Mr. COBDEN thought the HouEe was indebted to the Hon . Member for Middlesex for having called at tention to the subject. Oee good at all events had re sulted from it—that the responsibility of the under taking, which had been so long in abeyance, was at last fairly fixed on th at H ouse, an d h e very much feared that the whole sum expended upon it would be brought forward as an indictment against it, if not as an argu ment against its very constitution. But what was done was done, and there was no use in repining ; it was gone. He had heard it said by a very accomplished nobleman, and a very important judge in such matters, that these works would cost the country nearer 4,000,000 L than 2,000,000/.—(Hear.) It was for this reason that he was anxious for the House to assume the responsibility, and act as though respon sible. He saw no reason why the control of the expen diture should be placed in the hands of a Commission embracing individuals who were not Members of the House. Why not entrust it to a standing Committee, at all events during the session? He thought it would be a great improvement, also, if as in the case of the ordnance estimates and the estimates for Holyhead harbour, for instance, the estimate for the year was accompanied by a statement of the previous expenditure. Had this system been adopted in past years the country would have been saved this enormous expenditure, He hoped, therefore, that the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consider the suggestion. Captain BOLDERO said he never could understand why Mr. Barry should have been left without control, when an efficient superintendence might easily have been secured by having recourse to the Ordnance De partment or to the Woods and Forests. The experience of the last 50 years had certainly proved that no public work was ever undert.dsen in which the expenditure did not exceed the original estimate; but still there was no instance on record in which the difference bad been so great, and yet the work was not halt finished. Colonel SALWEY thought they had suffered them selves to be led into extravagant expenditure, by giving the building the name of a palace. Her Majesty was content to live in a house, and so surely might her faith ful Commons. The Hon. Member for the Tower Ham lets had told them that the building was the largest in the world, but was it not extraordinary that they could not find accommodation ia it for the Members of that llouse?—(Hear, hear.) He wished to ask the Hon. Member for Lancaster how many Members it would ac commodate ? Mr. GREENE held the return in his hand. It ap peared that the total number of scats in the new House was 446—(0h, oh! and cries of " Hear, hear")—the number of seats in the present House was 456—that in cluded the galleries in each House. The old House held only 387. Sir B. HALL wished to know what , the body of the new House would contain ? And he also wished to know [ what the side galleries would contain? He had been in ; the new Hoilse, and he thought the'side galleries might have been made larger, so as to contain two rows of seats. He wished to know also what accommodation would be provided for the public? Mr. GREENE said, the number for whom sitting room could be found on the floor was 277; in the present House the number was 296.—(A laugh.) In the gal leries, the number that could be accommodated was 133, and taking (as we understood the Hon. Gentleman, who spoke throughout very indistinctly) the end gallery, which would accommodate 66 more, that would give no in the galleries. Sir B. HALL was anxious to know the precise num ber that could bo accommodated within the House —the number in the side galleries, and the number in the gal lery opposite the Speaker's chair, which h e understood was now to be appropriated to Members, to the detri ment of the public. What accommodation, then, would there be for the public, and what accommoda tion for the Peers, because he saw some little benches on either side of the entrance, which were nothing but little pens or horse-boxes?—(A laugh.) Mr. GREENE had not the returns in detail. With regard to the accommodation to be given to strangers, suppose the gallery behind the Speaker's chair was ap propriated to tlicm, it would afford accommodation to persons, and th e s t ranger ' s ga ll ery b e hi n d it 70. 1 20 persons. The Speaker's gallery would contain 44 Mr. Alderman HUMPHREY would advise the police being brought in and seated in the House—(Groat laughter) —that would be the readiest way to test its capabilitii s. When the Coal Exchange was opened that expedient was had recourse to. Mr. GREENE said when the ventilation experiments were tried in the present House, a battalion of the Guards was brought in. Mr. Alderman HUMPHERY had been told that the division lobbies would not contain 150 Members each, and when he had spoken about it the answer he got was, "Nonsense, you know nothing at all about it."— (Laughter.) In case some of the large attendances they occasionally liar! in that House occurred, they would have it something like the black hole of Calcutta.— (Hear, hear.) It was on the whole a perfectly ridi culous affair as regarded every one that had anything to do with it. Colonel SIBTHORP wished to know whether it was true that some of the stones were already crumbling? Mr. GREENE was not aware of anything of the kind. There might be a defective stove, but the whole build ing was in a most satisfactory state. Sir H. VERNEY said the opinion given to the gni*. test by various Members was that the House ought not to be made inconveniently large. The question was the number that usually attended. When the House was very full it was perhaps better that lion. Members should be a little squeezed than it should be made too large.—(Oh.) Mr. BANKES said that they were now told that the House of Commons were responsible for all the extra vagant expenditure that had been incurred. He had taken every opportunity to complain of that wasteful expenditure of the public money, and should join the Hon. Member for Montrose in any motion expressive of that dissatisfaction at it. He complained of the de fective arrangement of the new House, by which the libraries were at so inconvenient a distance that Hon- Members must frequently be shut out upon divi sions. Indeed, all the defects of the existing House were still observable; the passages leading to the libra ries were dark and inconvenient, and there would be the great expense of keeping up the lighting and ventilation of that labyrinth of passages. All these things were un fortunately past remedy, but at least they could still exercise some control over the elaborate decorations that were proposed. He regretted also that it should have been called a palace, as it was not decorous to her Ma jesty, who had had nothing to do with it. Lord R. GROSVENOR called the attention of the Committee to the recommendation of the Committee of 1833, in which it was resolved that sittings should be provided in the body of the House, not for 300, but for between 420 and 460 Members—(Hear, hear)—and adequate accommodation for the remainder in the gal leries.—(Cheers.) The report then proceeded to take notice of the accommodation of strangers, which in their new House was to be to the extent of 120 to 140 in the gallery behind the Speaker's chair. The resolu tion was, that one or more galleries should be provided, net behind the Speaker's chair, but at the lower end of the House, for the accommodation of 200 strangers, with separate access, and retiring rooms during the time the House was cleared. Where those retiring rooms were he really did not know, and he doubted whether they existed at all.—(Hear, hear.) Then with regard to those boxes, that were like the pens in Smithfield, the accommodation that was to be provided fur Peers and other distinguished strangers was to the amount of 100, and these boxes would contain, he supposed, half a dozen on each side. Mr. B. OSBORNE—Fourteen in all. Lord R. GROSVENOR—What must they think after all this of an architect who told them that the cost would be about 700,000 L, and then they were to be told that they must ask no questions because the amount would be 2,000,000/. or 3,000,0001.? Only conceive, would any man recommend such an architect to another to erect a mansion? And after all, when they came to look at the accommodation they found that it was not only not better than at present, but that these inconve niences were increased tenfold, and it appeared to him that there was good ground for impeachment, and good cause fur irritation not only in but out of that House. He believed the people would not grudge tee expense if they thought their representatives were properly accom modated. He really hardly knew how to vote upon the question before the Committee. Mr. CUBITT said until the foundations had been laid—and it was impossible to ascertain what their ex tent or cost would be—no architect could give any esti mate of the probable expense of the building. Then the plans and drawings did not describe the highly-decorated style of architecture that was adopted, and the character and magnitude of the building itself the architects had previously little experience of. The drawings could convey no idea of the amount of decoration that had since been expended on the building. He thought the country would be proud of having erected a structure of such great beauty and magnitude, which in all probabi lity would endure for many centuries, and tie a work of art he thought it was worth their while to make it as good as it could possibly be made. Nu building in Eu rope of ancient or modern times could, in his opinion, be compared with. it, and in a country which spent and was able to spend 50,000,000/. or 60,000,000/. per annum, he did not think they would grudge spending 200,000/. a year for the next ten or twelve years to render the building complete. Mr. B. OSBORNE thought the upshot'of the debate would, at all events, establish the fact that the House was totally incompetent to the management of its own affairs. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer got up and defended his share of the business; the First Commissioner got up and defecded the Commission; the Hon. Member for Bedford eulo gised the ventilation; the Hon. Baronet the Member for the Tower Hamlets eulogised Mr. Barry, and thought them lucky because posterity would say the building was the finest in the world; and the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last admitted that the original estimate was only 770,0004, but, because the country was rich, we would not mind being cheated out of twice as much more. It mattered little t Hon. Members who would be starved to death in their Committee-rooms what pos terity would s ty, or to those 270 Members who would be cramped together on the floor of the House. lie was surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer should hays given the go-bye to the question of the expense of 200,000/. incurred for tem porary buildings, and the 2,0001. per annum they were paying for official residences, which Mr. Barry, eight years ago, promised is have completed, and which in 1842 he said would be finished in eighteen months. The most economical thing they could do would be to raise a sum of money, and finish the building at once.— (Hear.) There was another question that had not been alluded to—namely, the, commission to b) paid to the architect, that was originally fixed at 25,0001., and the bill now sent in by Mr. Barry, for commission, amounted to 72,000/.—(Hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer was now in active conflict with Mr. Barry on the subject, and he would be very much surprised if the Right Hon. Gentleman would not be obliged to succumb. lie contended that a clear case had been made out that the original plan had been departed from. He suggested that two other Members should be added to the Com mission in the room of the lion. Member for Lancaster, who had so many other duties to at'end to, and Of Sir John Burgoyne. He would recommend that Lord Sudeley and the Hon. Baronet the Member for Maryle bone be placed upon the Committee in their stead, other wise very little good would result from that debate, So far from being an honour to the country, he thought the whole thing was a disgrace and a slur upon the House of Commons. The Government ought to be made respon sible for the whole affair, and he suggested that Mr. Greece should be replaced by another Hon. Member, and Mr. Barry subjected to some c eetrol. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the architect had probably discovered that it was not easy to serve many masters. It was not, however true that either the present Government or the present House of Commons was responsible for what Was undertaken by the then Government and the then Houle of Commons some fifteen years ago. Wkat ho ",(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was responsible for, was the control of the expenditure. The alterations now referred to had been sanctioned by the Committee of 1844, and they were not responsible for them, and all the complaints of a want of control referred to a period before that time. The Hon. Member for Montrose was one of those who strongly impressed upon the House the importance of appointing that Committee, having found fault with the expenditure. In compliance with the unanimous wish of the House that Comittee was appointed. He believed there had teen no complaint of want of control since the appointment of that Committee. The new House of Commons was formed exactly after a design recom mended by the Committee of 1849. He, therefore, dis clainied any responsibility on the part of the Govern ment in respect to the construction of that building. Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to point the attention of the Committee to the expenditure involved by the recommendation of the Committee of Fine Arts. There was to be one vote of 1,000 guineas for three pictures to ornament the refreshment room of the House of Peers. This was but one instance of the extraordinary and transactions lavish c o h f a t ft h e e oor body of that the Epresidede r o v p e r r o ' p t o h s e e s d e to act upon the principle recommended, namely, that all the expenditure for ornamental matters should be post poned until the useful parts of the building were com pleted. But there was one little exception to that reso lution which was made in reference to an item of 4,000/. a year, which the Right Honourable Gentleman pro posed to allow intermediately for the purposes cf the fine arts; and the condition attached to this vote was that an account bo laid every year before this House as to the distribution of the money during the past year. He (Sir De Lacy Evans) thought that if the Right Ho nourable Gentleman reversed that proposition it would i r b e e ci m u i u r e c ha an account un t advantageous to be lai laid for a t rhoser appears, etcountry,hres,Hou an snea:mt item ly to setting u forth the items that were proposed to be expended in the next ye ar . Th ere wa s, it the estimates of 3001. for a cartoon and fresco of " St. Cecilia;" one of 400/. for a cartoon and fresco of " Lear and Cordelia;" and one of 1,8001. for models of statues for the House of Lords. If the models cost so much, he would be glad to know what the statues themselves would cost. Even if this were a proper place for such pictures, he did not think that these expenses should at the present time he allowed. He would, therefore, op pose the vote. If they went on from year to year al lowing 4,000/. each year to be thus expended, it would, in his opinion, take fifty years to complete the orna. mental part of the building. The highly-pri ze d pie _ lure of Landseer it was intended to place in a position where the public would not be allowed the opportunity of seeing it. There was a very imperfect light in the Peers' refreshment-rooms ; and he had been told that not any of the Noble Lords had taken a dinner there for the last two months. He did net deny but this might be a fitting opportunity for encou raging the fine arts, but he would beg leave to remind the House of the opinion expressed by Lord Sudeley, a nobleman of acknowledged taste, upon this subject, in a Committee of the House of Lords in 1844. In answer to some observations made by Mr. Barry, respecting the in troduction of frescoes into the new building, L or d Sudeley said, " If the buildings of the Houses of Par liament are meant for the productions of the fine arts, Mr. Barry may be correct; but I consider that the Houses of Parliament are built for no such purposes. The fine arts ought certainly to be called in to embellish these Houses; but the convenience of the public ought not to be sacrificed for this display." He called upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say what number of orders had been given to artists. If those orders had really been given, and that the artiste had devoted their time and talents to the execution of them, he was cer tainly not disposed to refuse them compensation. Under the head of engagements entered into and not yet paid, there was an item of 0,2501. which he should wish to have fully explained. He would move that 1,000 &n eat , be deducted from the vote. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought that they had already done that to which the Hon. and Gallant Member referred; for he admitted that this was a fitting opportunity for encouraging the fine arts. Let him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) remind the Com mittee that the whole of these matters had been carefully considered and discussed, end had generally been settled. )3y the sanction of both liottsee of Parliament thin cm. mission was appointed for the purpose of making those regulations connected with the fine arts. With all de ference to ourselvet, he thought that we were a very bad committee of taste.—(Hear, hear.) From what had already taken place, he believed that we would be the very worst body that could be appointed to direct the public taste in this respect.—(Laughter.) The names of those composing the Commission mere very well known to everybody, and he thought that the arrange ment made two years ago was the very best that could be made. He disclaimed the exercise of any influence in matters of taste.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that the inter ference of the Treasury as to the selection of particular works of art would not be likely to lead to a satisfactory result. All that the Government did was to fix the limit of the expenditure yearly for those purposes. He was not aware that there was any engagement entered into beyond what was stated in the estimate. Mr. STANFORD wished to know whether the Hon. and Gallant Member for Westminster made his objec tions from economical views ? With regard to the fine arts he was euro that hardly any Honourable Member could be found who would not admit that, before the Commission had been appointed in connexion with the building of the Houses of Parliament, the school of his toric art had been always wanting. In a valuable little work, called " The Fine Arts Almanack," it was stated that the great historic school of art had not arisen until the burning of both Houses of Parliament had exposed the nakedness of the land relative to historic painting. When we viewed the great exhibition of cartoons and oil paintings which had followed that calamity, there was no Englishman but felt the opprobrium that had hung upon this country in the want of this school of art. The splendid works of genius that were then pro duced gave a triumphant contradiction to the charge of being deficient in great painters, and relieved this coun try from the charge thot had heretofore stood against us. It was known to every dilettante that it was impossible to give full encouragement to the arts unless they furnished large and spacious walls for exhibiting frescoes and historical pictures. The only opportunity they had of encouraging such arts was when they were erecting large buildings like these new Houses of Parliament, and when they could command the talents of the ablest men in the profession. It was becoming a great nation like this to take a high stand in the historical school of art. Even looking at the ques tion in an economical point of view, he was ready to meet the objections of the HOD. and Gallant Member for Westminster. The Hon. and Gallant Member must admit, that it was beneficial to the manufacturing in terest to form a high school of design, and every one knows at what a disadvantage our manufacturers would be placed in competition with the productions of foreign countries if we had not this school of design. On all grounds he thought that this sum of 4,000/. yearly for the encouragement of the school of arts and the pro motion of the school of deign was the most eco nomical and beneficial vote that this House could come to.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") lie hup-d that this vote would have the effect which we all so much desir el—thet men of talent, taste. an I judg ment would be chosen to give effect to and to execute these designs. No one could read the narne of Landseer without feeling persuaded that we had chosen one of the greetest ert'sts in this or any other country.—(Hear.) He felt that the Committee would be fully justified in agreeing to this vote. Sir B. lIALL had understood his Hon. and Gallant Friend the Member for Westminster to say that he con sidered it a strange and novel mode of proceeding to purchase the pictures of Landseer for the purpose of putting them up in a place where no one could see them except the cooks and waiters of the House of Lords' re freshment-roomsa and a few of the Peers themselves. If we were to vote money fur the encouragement of the fine arts, which he would be perfectly wilting to do, let it be with the understanding that the pictures were to be placed before the public view—but he would oppose the vote otherwise. There was another point for our con sideration. We have to vote 1,800/. for models for statues for the House of Lords. He bad been to see those models. There were 18 cf them. It appeared that the Committee appointed to select the small statues were prepared to recommend such on account of the nar row size of the niches in the gothic form, which would necessarily restrict the choice of attitudes; that the cha racter of the statues shall be severe and monumental, and free from all design and action. Now there were 18 of those barons and prelates that had witnessed the signing of Magna Charta to be placed there. Being anxious to see what the progress of the fine arts was in this country, he went to the studio of Mr. Thome, a countryman of his own, in Lower Belgrave-place, who had produced some very fine works of art. He there saw statues of severe and monumental character, with out action. They were the statues of the late Bishop of Dublin and the Earl of Pembroke. He asked the artist why it was he made the shoulders of his statue so narrow—that he had never seen a man in his life with such narrow shoulders? The reply of the sculptor was, "Mr. Barry will not allow us any more room."--- (Laughter.) That was what they called encouraging the fine arts.--(Laughter.) The House of Lords was the most gaudy, the most meretricious of public buildings.— (Hear.) He asked them, was it not preposterous to call upon artists to make statues to decorate such a place, and yet not give to them sufficient space?—(Hear.) He thought it was quite absurd to say they were encouraging the fine arts, when artists were called in and yet no op portunity afforded to them of displaying their skill.— (Hear.) Why select Mr. Landseer, who was at the head of their artists, and required no encouragement from them? Why not throw open the decoration of the House to public competition? He would gladly give 40,000/. to encourage the fine arts, bat he objected to spend their money in this way. Lord MAHON did not feel entitled to make any atateMent on the part of the Royal Commissioners, some of whom were members of her Majestfa Government, and he had not been aware that this subject was to be discussed there that night, but still he wished to add some observations to those already made by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer. The Hon. and Gallant Mem ber for Westminster had said that what was dune by this Commission was the work of the secretary and of one or two other persons. The Hon. and Gallant Member was in error. The meetings of the Fine Arts Commissioners were all etatod in the public papers, and it would be found that they were in general largely attended. The reports of what was done were sent for approval, and the signatures withheld if what was reported did not meet with approval. The Hon. and Gallant Member next stated that the Pornmiseioners had recommended the erection of several hundred statues. Sir DE LACY EVANS explaineds Lord MAHON had understood the Hon. and Gallant Member to make it as a matter of charge against the Fine Arts Commissioners that a great number of statues had been recommended by them. The Commis inissioners had desired the erection of a certain, but smaller, number of statues, and they appointed a Committee to consider the names of all who were distinguished in history, in science, and in literature, who might be entitled to such an honour. That was a mere table from which a selection was to be made, but the number actually recommended to be erected did not exceed fir:eon or eighteen. The Honourable and Gallant Member had mistaken the list from which a selection was to be made for that which actually had been se lected.—(Hear, hear.) He then came to the three pic tures to be placed in the refreshment-room cf the Howe of Lords. The Commissioners felt that they would in adequately consult for the present state of the arts if they did not endeavour to avail themselves of the emi nent talents of Mr. Landseer.—(Hear, hear.) It was under that impression that they desired to have three pictures from Mr. Landseer. The Honourable and w e y Gallant Memb er h a d ra i sed a laugh on a former race Then u casion by stati ng th a t t h e su bj ects were to be those of the cliase. But, then, d ilayhd ? call poll an Mr. objection Landseer had e t d o exercise his geni us except on subjects on which it might beconspicuously been raised as to the place where these pictures were to be placed —namely, in the'!Peers' refresh ment-rooms. Now, he had to state explicitly that the Commissioners had desired to have these pictures in another place, and a considerable body of them had visited various sites in the building for the purpose of discovering a more appropriate place, but they could not think of any place more suitable, or, he ought to say, less unsuitable than the refreshment-room of the Peers; but then it never was intended that the public should not have the advantage of inspecting these pic tures, The public could be admitted in the morning, at a time when the Peers were not occupied; and the Com missioners not only desired but intended that the Peers' refreshment-room should be accessible to the public.— (Hear.) With respect to the niches in the House of Lords, he did not think that blame was attributable to the architect. They must have the style of that period, and they all knew that was marked by a certain rigidity of limit ; and if they were to depart from that, they would no longer represent the time it was intended to depict.—(Hear.) Mr. OSBORNE objected to the pictures being placed in a dark room, where they could not be seen plainly for two hours in the day. He denied that. it was in tended by that House, in building a Parliament-house, to encourage the fine arts, and if they did, that was not a way to encourage them. He objected to what they had done with respect to Mr. Landseer, who was not merely at the top of the prolession,hut of the world. He was for abolishing the committee of fine arts, those nineteen dilletante gentlemen who passed their mornings in spending the public money; and if any gen tleman would second the motion, he would move their abolition. What were they doing?—cramrning into narrow niches men with narrower shoulders.— (Laughter.) If the originals had had such narrow shoulders they never would have wrung Magna Charta from the Monarch.—(Laughter.) He would vote against the ite:n as a censure upon the Committee of fine arts. Colonel RAWDON maintained that the Commis sioners of flue arts had done much to encoureae art in .s country, and he referred to the frescoes of Mr. i)yas and Mr. Maclise, and others, as exciting the admiration of artists in other countries. He recommended the Hon. Members who found fault with the Gothic sculptures in tended to be erected in the House of Lcrds to study Flaxman and other author!. Lord C. HAMILTON remembered that the Hon. and Gallant Member was himself an artist, and had proved by his own productions that ho had peculiar: notions on the subject of the fine arts.—(Hear.) In the i giote he in tended to give he wished not to be understood as purs ing any censure on the Commissioners of fine arts. Instead of encouraging art, they were going t) bury those paintings in a place where they never co u ld b e properly seen. In recording his vote in favour of the amendment, he did ro, not through any want of appre ciation of high art, but because of the inappropriateness of the locality and of the decorations proposed for it. Colonel DUNNE protested against their lavishing sums of the public money in decorating the Peers' refreshment-roams, when they were taking away from the hospitals of Dublin small sums which would greatly benefit the poor of that city if not withdrawn. After a fsw words from Sir DE LACY EVANS, The Committee divided, when there appeared— For the original vote ... 75 For Sir De Lacy Evans's amendment ... 94 Majority in favour of the amendment ... —l9 The amendment was accordingly carried. The next vote was 1,3001. for the expense of certain public buildings in the Isle of Man. Mr. V. SXIITH was understood to object to the item of 300/. for building a gaoler's house, and for alterations in Castle Rushen; but upon an explanation by Mr. Hayter, the vote was agreed to. The sum of 92,8741. on account of the works at the new packet harbour and harbour of refuge at Holyhead, and to defray the expense of the present harbour estab lishment at Holyhead, &c., was then voted after a short discussion. The vote of 151,5001. for the harbours of refuge was postponed. The next vote proposed was 18,093/. 4s. 3d. for the ex pense of maintaining and repairing public buildings in Ireland, inland navigation, and other services. Colonel DUNNE wished to know, as the office of Lord- Lieutenant was to he abolished, what was to be done with Dublin t'ast'e? A palace, they were told, was to be re served for the occupation of her Majesty, when she went over to Ireland—if that ever happened; but what use was to be made of the Castle? Was the Court Secretary to reside there? There was another item for the Royal Hospital, Kilineinham. which was instituted in the reign of Charles IL, for veteran Irish soldiers; and he should like some information shout this also. It had been re ported that the establishment was to he broken up, and the Irish pensioners removed to Chelsea; and he wanted to know what the Government intended to do? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Lord-Lieutenant, if even the Bill for the abo lition of the office should pass, would not be in a condi tion to leave the Castle this year, and the vote was re quired for necessary repairs. After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP, Mr. M. O'CONNELL took it for granted that the Go vernment Were now ashamed of the Bill they had brought in; for if they were going to take away the Lord-Lieutenant, what did they want with such hems as 4521. for furniture of the state apartments, and that for the house of the private secretary to the Chief Secretary? Mr. OSBORNE observed that a sum of 581. was in cluded itathis vote for the repair of Irishtown Church in Dublin. This was a Protestant church, and he thought the Establishment ought to be called upon to repair the building and not the public. He wished for some ex planations upon this item. Mr. HAYTER said the church was a small building in one of the worst localities in Dublin—(No, no)—and it was much frequented by the military, who were sta tioned in the Mr. OSBORNE said that was a very bad reason for the vote. The sum was trifling, but it involved a prin eiple, and therefore he should move that this 581. be dis alleys ed.—(HF ar, and " Oh.") efr. GROGAN pressed for an answer to the question whether Dublin Castle was to be maintained as an oc casional residence for her Majesty, like Peceaix Park Lodge? Sir G. GREY could give no certain information upon that subject; but it was quite clear that the state apart ments must be kept up, because the only reception rooms were in the Castle. Mr. TAYLOR adverted to the reports respecting the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham, and asked the Secretary at War what was intended to be done with that estab lishment? •?/ Mr. F. MAULE, in reply, said an impression eie peered to have gone abroad that it was intended to abolish Kilmainham Hospital; but he could assure the Honourable Gentleman no oecision had been come to upon that sufject. It was true the Committee upon the army estimates had directed their attention to the consideration, whether the purposes of the establishment might not he answered by that at Chelsea; but they had done nothing more than take evidence. They had nut even formed an opinion upon the sutject, and of course until their report was received the Government would take no steps in the matter. Colonel SIBTHORP then moved that the vote be reduced to 16,8921. 14s. 3d. by the deduction of 1,2401. 10s. for the maintenance and repairs of the Royal Col lege of St. Patrick's; at Maynooth.—(Cries of " Divide.") Lord J. MANNERS and Mr. DISRAELI asked for the reasons why this sum was included in the estimate? Mr. HAYTER replied that the Act of Perliaitent 8 and 9 Vic., c. 8, authorised the Government to repair tle:a College of relaynooth, but it omitted to make provi sion for the purpose; and no provision being made, it wa s necessary a vote should be taken for the repairs. Colonel tiIBTHORP—Then I wish to stop it.—(A laugh.) Lord J. MANNERS inquired whether 1,200/. were to be called for every year for repairs; and wished to know the amount of the last vote? Mr. lIAYTER—The sum voted last yeatwas 1,1141. In reply to a question, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that the money voted last year had been spent upon repairs of the old buildinge, which were in a bad con dition. Mr. REPTON said he could testify, from personal knowledge, that no repairs had been . made to the old buildings. They were in the same state now as tiler) , were two years and a half ago. Mr. H. DRUMMOND could not consent to try the question of Maynooth upon this vote ; neither could he consent, under the pretence of repairs, to go on building a new college of Mrynooth. Mr. HAYTER assured the Honourable Gentleman that the sum now asked for was entirely applicable to repairs. Whether the state of the buildings required the amount, he could net say, except that it was certi fied ns being required by the Commissioners of Public Works. Lord J. MANNERS could not see that any ground had been shown to lead the House to believe that the sum asked for was to be bona fide expended in main taining in a proper state of repair the old building of Maynooth. Mr. lIAYTER observed that the Commissioners of Public Works would be guilty of a gross breach of duty if they applied money voted by the House for one pur pose to another.—(Hear.) The Committee then divided. The numbers were— For Colonel Sibthorp's amendment ... 47 Against it ... ... 124 Majority ... ... —77 The amendment was consequently reject( d. Mr. OSBORNE then renewed his oi , j2etions to the it em of 58/. br Irishtown Church, and intimated that he should take the sense of the House upon it. Mr. S. HERBERT, who had been appealed to, said be should object to the refusal of this item. Irishtown church was now mainly used for the military until ar rangements could be made for building them a chapel; end in that case Irishtown church was to be made the crunch of a large parish. But until that event occurred, it was a military chapel.—(Hear.) Lord J. MANNERS asked the Hon. and Gallant Member for his reasons for opposing this particular item ? Mr. OSBORNE replied that the Roman Catholic church did not receive a single penny from the State, and the Protestant establishment had 400,000/. a year, therefore it ought to pay this miserable 58/. Lord J. MANNERS observed that the vote the House had just arrived at was a conclusive auswer to the Hoe. giitlernan, for the House had just voted a sum of money substlatially to the Irish Church. AKer tome further conversation the amendment was withdrawn, and the vote agreed to. A sum of 10,7881. was voted for the works and re pairs of Kingston Harbour. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and ob tained leave to sit again. The House resumed. Mr. BERNAL brought up the report of the votes of supply on the navy estimates, which were severally agreed to. The Exchequer-bills (8,558,7001.) Bill went through Committee. THE POLICE AND IMPROVEMENT (SCOT LAND) BILL. On the question that this Bill be read a third time, Mr. SMOLLETT said he thought it stood in great ncei of amendment, and intended to propose amend ments, if he had an opportunity. Mr. DUNCAN wished the Bill to be postponed to the 7th of June. Mr. F. MAIILE would consent to the postponement, if it was the general wish of Hon. Members. The Bill was then postponed to Friday next. The Elections (Ireland) Bill was postponed to Monday. The West India Appeals Bill was read a third time and passed. The Alterations in Pleadings Bill was read a third time and passed. REGISTRATION OF DEEDS. Oa the questi,m that the Registration of Deeds (Ire land) Bill be read a third time, Mr. P. WOOD asked when they might expect to r a ve the report of the Commission, appoioted three or four years ago, to inquire into The expediency of a general registry of deeds in England? Sir G. GREY had expected that the report would have been finished long since. The Commissioners had been engaged in preparing it, and he had every reason to believe that it would be produced at a very early day. Mr. 11. DRUMMOND said, that when he brought the subject before the House last year he was recom mended not to proceed with his Bill until after the report of the C3mmission should be presented. He then doubted its early appearance, and what had since transpired had confirmed the doubts which he then entertained. It was almost impossible for any independent Member to carry a measure of this kind through Parliament, and as he thought he could not do better than entrust the Wither progress of the measure to the real reforming law officer of the Crown—an animal almost as extraor- dingy as a Whig Chancellor of • the Exchtqu9r with a shilling in his pocket—(Loud laughter)—he ahould, therefm.e. take an early opportunity of discharging the second reading of the Bill. Colfinel DUNNE said the opinion in Ireland as to he lalue of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's law re, forms was very different from that expressed by the - Hon. Members who had spoken. A Member of the House, whom he did not see in his place, told him that the sub stitution which was propose.l for the present simple mode of registration in Ireland, was one of the most compli cated and difficult description, which he doubted if the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-Gencral understood himself'. He th n ref. rred to the opt ration of the Encuml:creil Estates Act, and said thet there was no such thing - us property now recognized in Ireland—than there had not been such a court in Ireland for the last 700 'yt (Hear, hear.) He Would not, however, oppose the Bill. Thu SOLICITOR-GENERAL deprecated the system of dragging- in the working of the Encumbered Estates Bill on tho discussion of a question like the present; but as it hal been done, he wi-bed to refer to a statement made a few nights ago by the Honourable M ea th ! , for Roscommon, to the effeet that the Commissioners had sold laud as belonging to one estate, which actually formed part of another. Tho circumstances were these: —the ancestors of the gentleman whose estate W 5 I° had leased theadjoining boundaries between them. The Commissioners, t0,r,,, estate, and had confused. t _ 11 : fore, in selling the estate, had sold it subject to.i;t proper boundaries being afterwards ascertained; so tot het point of fact, they had not sold any part of the joining estate—(Hear, hear.) The Bill was then read a third time and passed' „' The Convict Prisons Bill went through Con'roitte‘cent The Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bi ll " through Committee. o ,T the On the motion of Mr. HENRY DRIJMAI'rr-rag' order for the second reading of the Real Prop erty fer Bill was discharged. oc . The House then adjourned at half-past Twelve ° °- k THE COUNTRY MARKETS' le" r i W A KEFIELD, MAY 24.—We have a good supY dor and of other articles moderate. There is a fair deolt,!6°_,;tiel fresh wheat at a decline of Is per quarter, whilst o ther qT eo , are neglected, but sales are not pressed at the reduced Pao Barley meets with some inquiry at its previous val ue ro b and shelling are fully as dear. Beans dull and easier toPoid. New. WHEAT, per qr. Nibs per bushel:— 9. s • 15. to Sudolk, Essex, and Kent, red ... 40 to 42 "" Ditto, white 43 —4B ". Norfolk and Hunts., red 38 -- 49 Ditto, white ... 42 45 Lincolnshire and Cambridge, red ... 36 — 39 ". Ditto, white ... 40 44 „.• Yorkshire, red 36 3 3 Ditto, white 40 44 Dantzic and Konigsburg, white .. 42 45 Lowerßaltic and Hamburgh, red... 36 — 39 --,••" Mediterranean, red ... 30 3 4 BARLEY, per quarter of 8 bushels:— . 0 ' moo .. ..... .... ..... Norfolk and Suffolk... Lincolnshire and Yorkshire Scotch Grinding per 30 stone Foreign 22 25 BEANS, per quarter of 8 bushels 631 b 2 6 23 Small, fine ... 27 — 29 0 Ticks .** 26 —2 B ~.0 " Foreign 23 26 ni _...., •••• ff.- 0 0 _..., .....• I . • • ..." - •0. OATS,'Per stone:— to Mealing . 8d to 9i o d to Ui Feeding ... ... 8d to 9d of to Foreign ... ... 8d to 9d SHELLING, per load of 2611 b 21 93 MALT, per load of 6 imperial bushels 33 35 PEAS, per Imperial Quarter Blue and white boilers Grey and Feed ... 24 -26 ....•••'- ... ... 23 -- 25 .' / ARRI' Qrs. Wheat ... ... ... 14,710 i Barley ... ... ... 2,1011 Cl° Rapeseed "" Shelling ••• „ Linseed • ••• 0 . Malt ... ••• " ..• Flour ••• •'• WALL. Oats ... ... 932 Beans... 1,983 Peas ... ..• •.. 323 Tares NEWBURY, MAY „ 23.—The supply of wheat 0 4 1 o f tb 6 moderate, yet more than e q ua l t o t h e requirem eP i s a sha t r trade, sales proceeding very slowly ; and althoni b ior eetr f ,i; meta of Is to 2s per quarter was submitted to, Ye t L•,th $ tity remains unsold. Barley, moderate supply' "1„ sale at full rates. Beans, a good supply, and dull sallipri o ; rates. Peas and oats, short supply, and fair sale, at 01, LIVERPOOL, MAY 24.—At this day's market t here o Livaicroor., MAY 24.—At this day's market de 1- or very limited attendance of the town and country • — rref el l ot purchased sparingly of wheat at about Tuesday's eti- 70110 fine descriptions, and a reduction of Id to 2d P er b e ieg fr i middling and inferior runs. Good oa t s a nd °aloe s ' 0 0,0 0 tre:nely scarce, holders were enabled to realise an adr lid per 451bs, and 3d to 6d per load. Barley, beaus , wa s :i met with a limited retail sale, at late rates. Flouro obi; 'tremely difficult to move, buyers bei ng g enerally sce,olt b ets and to have made progress with sa l es l ow er pries Of° been acceded to. Indian corn was in fair reques t 11- f be ° rates. - EXETER, MAY 24.—Cattle M ar k e t—The suPP l y sl ed , 6 ,0 driven in to-day w:s very heavy, b u t genera lly tiles''' . er l e ssw e j, dub. Pork Carcases—The supp l y t o -d ay was rath n last week, but prices remain near l y t h e sam e as th e Oost ais et of ranging from 6s up to 7s 6d p er score . W oo l—The f o ietlt b o day is quiet. The staplers will give sixpence r t. r, s 4Sl ° 6 4; are anxious to buy at that price. Pannier—Duct 3 0 0 per couple ; galenas, .5s ; spring chickens, 25 u", es fowls, 3s 61 to 4s 6d • pigeons, Is ed to 2s ; 026t t er ,•10. ,0 each ; butter, 8d to 911 per lb ; eggs, 22 to 24 ,° •,„ s ierr,r Exchange, One o'clock—We cannot report much 11- ese'le to this hour. The decline in Mark-lane on Mond°l o , • ' lf dered the millers and factors more than usually ea n h ti : t general price asked by the growers has been 5s 6d, l' h " to not heard that that figure has been given—sa les ' - f a r c e 4- 6 ° o; ever, been effected at 5s 3d per bushel. We therelalPo actual sales at from 5s to 5s 3d, although there is 0° t at e o large quantities of the best wheat could not be boagu t the latter figure. Foriegn wheat is offered at Is ' 6 a 1/e rti o ll prices; hard Russian, 36 s 6d ; P o li s h Od es sa, 41.5 t o f e of 480 lbs. deliver e d a t th e s t at i on. B a rley 1 5 30 5 3s per bushel ; oats, 2s to 2 s 3d. Fi ne flour, 0510 Drs sack. up pli o6 , BRISTOL SUGAR MARKET, MAY 2l.—The re - e. still very short, and the transactions of the Wee k p - r e Orres quently restricted ; the tone of the market is, howe' i m " - 3 .' '- Refined goods have met a ready sale at improved r s '" and molasses very dull. —Bristol Mercury. 70 04, ; WETHERBY, MAY 23.—Whit e w h ea t 15s 6d to . ve r4'' ditto 14s Od to 15s 6d per load ; b ar l e y 23s to ° s o ;o o6 l,ite beans les Od to 12s Od per load i - oats lid to 9d P O SCARBOROUGH, MAY 23.—Red whe a t 4s 9d to 65,4, 10;06 ditto 5s Od to 5s 9d per 5 stones; black oats 6d t , ° :Sri h ditto 7d to 8d per stone • malting barley 190 to 2 "7 / 001° ditto 17s to 19s per qr. Of 32 stones; superfine flour " A i; seconds ditto, 24s to 27s per sack of 20 stones. 6 0 ;10 KNARESBOROUGH, MAY 22.—Wh ea t 5s 0" t :ti beans 3s 6d to 3s 9d per bushel ; b ar l ey 24 s to 263; 111 20s per qr. pliet l i °l 6 4 LLANRWST, MAY 22.—Our ma r k e t was well a o - - . - t grain, which caus e d a f a ll i n t h e pr i ce of wheat of sb°ll per hobbet, on last week's quotation. at d RHYL, MAY 21.—We h a d a sma ll er supp ly of e°fli tl 3s '"l j o market this day, than has b een exhibited forrnalli u rsel le o r lel there appeared no inclinatio n on the part of bur r ; r le o bi t do business, many sample s were no t opened, and h n 'pr h is " were effected. Prices of wheat must be quoted 6d Pi: doper below last week. In other grai n th ere was but lit tl " et stationary prices. INVERNESS, MAY 21.—Wheat, per qr, weighing w ei bushel, 36s 6d to 38s 6d ; b ar l ey , per quarters o sig!' 541 b per bushel, 19s to 20s Od ; oa t s , p er q uarter , jet or 421 b per bushel, 17s Od to 20s Od. Oatmeal , PI, Wei boll, boll, Iris Od to Os Od; ditto second, 14 s Od to Os le i, fa rap meal, 12s 82 to Os Od ; peasemeal, 14s Od to Os Od; to esSoll stone, Os 6d to Os Od ; fir s t fl our , p er 2801 b., 34i o , cl oo ef f . f er second ditto, 26s Od to 2tis Od; o a t mea l, best, per Ad; °ler' imperial, Is Cd to O s Od; ditt o secon d, I s 4d to 0° "6rsb_ i 'Per, meal, Is 2d to Os 02 ; pea semea l, i s 42 to Os Od; 9 ,31 40 2s 4d cash, 2s 8d credit ; second ditto, 2s Od ca sh : eQen:Y; dit. Potatoes, pe r s t one , 4Vd to 5d ; beef, '32 N o l° to 6d; veal, 4d to sd; mutton, 4d to 6d; por'', 6 a; Toth, fowls, each, 102 to 12d; c hi c k ens , per pa i r , 122 0 ,7 each, Od to Od; eggs, per dozen, 4 1 Ad to 5d ; 13 , -„Jo ir , per lb, 9(.1 to led ; ditto, salt, 9d to 100 ; croudie (1 1 40 212; four-pound loaf, cash, 5d to 6d ' • ditt o , credit) coals, per cwt, 9d ; hay, per st one , 7d to Bd. COAL MARKET.—YESTERDAT• 0 1 ,,6 1 Buddle's W. Hartley 13s Od 'Haswell ...... . ... ."‘. P4O, East Adairs Main Ils Od,Keepier Gr " ange ...... /.' P Hasting's Hartley l3s 6d I Lambton ...... . ...... ' 10 , 0 North Percy Hartley l3B Od :Lumley ..... . ... ..' /5 li ..... ..., 1 Ord's Redheugh "Canfield Moor West Wylam Wylam .... Wall's End, &c. Cowpen Hartley •• . . 13s Od i Maclean's Tees ..... :::: ifog 4 0 Bewicke and Co. Hilda l3s 6d Howard's W. IL ''''' di d , t , v i Northumberland - V6' . IS 4 \\Talker Eden Main lss Od Sidney's HartleY Hatton Ships at market.. 92. rj. RAILWAY SHARE MARN P BRISTOL, MAY 24. 11 ie STOCK EXCHANGH.—Prices were improved to-clogiiiip‘4l'o amount of business done was very limited, and the,ers, tion we have to notice is Great Western, (2 1114 " , closed at 14. Afel LIVERPOOL, MAY 24. w it° P' , STOCK Excriaxem.— The transactions to-da9l)3 o „'e:i low :—London and North-Western, 1031 c• -- ;"p l Quarters, 13s. 9d. dis.—Lancashire and Yorksh;,t,-to' 384 c.—Ditto, Fifths, 91. 115. 3d. dis.—w,;" Riding Union), 8/. Si. 3d.—Lancaster and Prest o " e '1 • 0 ' Manchester. Sheffield, and Lincolnshire, Preferel3.4co'oll4 Midland, 34th Ditto, Halves, 27% die. -- -5 , ° 1%,` , 0• ,20 9)1+ (A), 233 3 / 4 —Smith-Eastern and Dover, Consul 50c17-9;. —Ditto (No. 4), Registered, 4 3 4—Blrkenhesk and Cheshire (late C. and 13), 6 per cent. till 1, 8 1 1 0 0 " • , 9d.--York, Newcastle, and Berwick (G. N.. P. 6 per cent. till 1850, 6 5, 4 dis. bt MANCETE,STER, MAY 24. l $ ll STOCK EXCHANGE.—The share market wsseollir" to-day, and prices are higher, especially in L ail Yorkshire stock. • 0 1 ; i ' BIRMINGHAM, MAY 24 . verf Albel OH olf, t STOCK EXANGE.—Our share market "M sbre l 'ir mate to-day. The only transactions were in firesssoolo" and Birmingham (B), at 71. 15. 3d. dis. The be 1, lines stood at the prices recently quoted in , market, but there were no buyers at the rata- r" _.„,„ . 0 011 jo YORK, Inv 23. Aav R a re I'o STOCK EXOKANGE.—The transactions ou.f ). Y lONV :—Great Northern, Preference, 101 A--York 10 ( , 4 , • Midland, 16%—Sheffield, Rotherham, and G° ° aa ' guaranteed 5 per cant.), 17. GLASGOW, 3Lvt 23. i ore STOCK EXCHANGE.—The transactions to-daY,.ollFtesi• low:—Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle. 3 1 / 4 - 4.1 70 11 marnock, and Ayr, 41 3 /—Ditto, 5 per 110—Scottish Central, 13. BIRTHS. • n acit OF A SON. A . On the 18th inst., at Albert-square , ClaPu"— t, tb W 1 fe of B. Sm yth, Esq., of Calcutta. .„,-,l;pi r , On the 21st inst., at Cambridge-square) Cl* jot wife of John Robert 2lowbray,'Esq. of On the 22c1 inst., at liornsey, the Nr , ' a - Hitchcock, Esq. OF A DAUGHTER. , , On the 16th Inst., the lady o f the Rev. Tll9 ,50 • ' lie fi British Conitilar Chaplain, Calms. , , . -,-- 1130: On the 22d inst., at Turnby-lawn, Lincoltonir" of I'llij - ,r Stuart. , i 0 ' • Ol e .11A FATED. ' li s 4 0 -At ' ' On the 21st inst.. at Walworth, - Drew-ett,'Esq., of the borough of Southwark, and '-' l , O te , Sussex; to Sarah, second daughter of lifr. Ge"g e - 04: Trinity-terrace, Newington. „ A i PAP p icleP Oa the 21st inst., at Frodesley, Salop, Sara — er, ' Ate , of St. Neot's, Huntingdonshire, to Henrietta EleBiliorek daughter of Thomas Jennings, Es f the Abbo3" q , 0 Shrevrsbury. On the' 2lst inst.., John Deacon, Esq . ., of D ° : ct91'3'..C. ' 6111 : ,. .4 . - fr . • nit ° Marshal Geno va, r.ej o .2n f 2 t te h is e n so -k tr m ac.t i: v a a l Admiralty. Vauxhall, a o• l e l d , 71. Odra' On the 21st inst., Adelaide, wife of the Re v. ' •• ' '' :- tal i . ' P° O Pe n '-S tl t i ( e )ke 2l N s e t w i i n n s t 7a . t Busby- par k- co ttage , - -',' , 0' ' Teddlii v` Eg4' , ..- sge :g e.l IVillian j i .a l m, ,'"- 11°'- nn p. s Al arl :Cl On. the 22d ins . t., at Streatham -lodge, b tirr e Y' to .. fs44 Coulthurst, aged 92. - ' On the 22d inst., at Dalston, aged CB, John Tai ls . r, 1 , formerly of Hutton-house, Essex. Louis 91 -0 On the 20th inst., in - South Molion-street, . r . . Fatiquier, Esq., fifth ton of the late Thomas l' • Li c i lli° ' . v of Hampton Court Palace, aged s'. _,.----"' of lOC 11 5 ' Lic.ion : Printed and Pablizhei by MURDO 40. e t .. - q). 112, ..racid, Printer, at The au% 0 0 ,5 44 0 0 4trand, in , -,7u, Precinct o! the ihwoy, in we 11114(11eg.ist Saturday, May 25, 1850. „at elfut Le*,Pecti of et T u i Alti• rt.t C;7 144 ek,, lapel eltisbra7 I t :at it do* t lth N 'ettl! 4 1 % tb Nti n q That tli 1 44 z,en IT 41 1e' „ the trit hitv 14;17.1ekni tt ttit %4 44 te 1 41 , 1 4 4 Alth: go ' tio x UPP 44 8 Nri t4b4 • '" tbki to' h i °I b o* s r li e 7 4 0 , I , z 2 7: 4 tc ai;t,z.r. 14 N4l •0 4, * ith t he t e r it ra INN (1 1 Pe ' .) t t?: 11 0 -11 , 41), ~'. ~. V PA