The Sun. — London, England, 1850-05-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, May 17. Their Lordships met to-day shortly after Four o'clock, in order to give the Royal Assent to several Bills that Chad passed both Houses of Parliament, viz,:— The Exchequer•bills (9,200,0001.) The Brick Duties. The Commons Inclosure. The School District Contributions. The Indemnity. , The Titles of Religious Congregations (Scotland). heDistressed Unions Advances and Repayment of Ad vances The. Bristol Water Works (Amendment). the Suffolk and General County Amicable Insurance Office. The Birkenhead Improvement. The West Bromwich Rates. The Brighton Improvement, Purchase of Royal Pavi lion and Grounds, and Amendment of Existing Acts. The South Wales Railway (No. 1). The Dublin and Belfast Junction Railway. The Clerical, Medical, and General Life Assurance So , . ciety. The Architects, Civil EngincerF, Builders, and General Fire and Life Insurance, Annuity, and Reversionary Interest Company (incorporation of the company under a different name). The Ramsey, Upwood, and Great Raveley Turf Fens and Lockspit Lots and Lockspit Lands Drainage and Improvement. The Wakefield Borough Market (New Site) Approaches. The Buckinghamshire Railway. The Glasgow and Shotts Turnpike-roads Improvement. Hartley's Divorce. The Lords Commissioners were Lord Campbell, the Marquis of Lansdowne, and Earl Granville. Their Lordships then adjourned during pleasure. The House resumed at Five o'clock. The Parish Constables Bill was read a third time and passed. Several petitions were presented against Sunday la bour in the Post.office. RECALL OF THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR. Lord BROUGHAM rose to call the attention of the House to the proceedings which had yesterday taken place' in the French Assembly, on the subject of the recall of M. Drouyn de rlluys, the French Ambassador from this country. His Noble Friend opposite, the most candid and straightforward Minister of State that he had ever known, had yesterday, in utter ignorance • as he believed, of the real facts of the case, assured the Ilvie that the recall of the French Ambassador, or rather the return of that gentleman from London to Paris, was not a matter of that grave importance which he (Lord Brougham) had imagined. The Noble Marquis had not perhaps said, but had given it to be understood that the return of M. Drouyn de l'Huys to Paris, had been for the purpose of enabling that gentleman to give impartial explanations is the French Assembly. Now, it turned out, that there was not the shadow a a foundation fur taking such a view of the case. He had not been recalled to make any explanations. He bad made no explanations. It had ' Leo distinctly stated hyi General Lahitte, the Minister for. Foreign Affairs, that M. Drouyn de l'Huys had been recalled in order to express the grave dissatisfac tion with which the French Government regarded the conthe t of England in the affairs of Greece, and this account was echoed by the vociferous cheers of the represent itives of the French people elected by univer sal suffrage. It was amid that there was no offence in , teided to her Majesty by the absence of M. Drouyn de l'Huys from Lod Paimerston's banquet. Be it so. Bat how happened it that if M. Drouyn de l'Huys was obliged to go to Paris on that day that M. Mariscolche. the French Chargo d'Affaires, was also absent ? It could not be said ot him, as had been said t f the Russian Ambassador, that his family were suffering from indis position. With regard to tne Russian Ambassador, it was very true teat two months since his family had been suffering from iudispofttion, but that did not apply to tire family of M. Mariscolche, nor to the family of the Bavarian Minister. The French, the Russian, and the Bavarian Ministers were absent from that banquet. All the party of order in the French Assembly had cheered the announcement of General Lahitte, hut the Mountain, the party of dis ord6r, had remained silent, and he had had complaints made to him in Penis by members of the party of order of the countenance which was given in this country to the exiles, who made use of the asylum which was afforded tnem here to stir up disaffection between the French people and the French Government. That they from hence issued orders to their partisans he knew from the communications which he had had with the French Geverntnant. From London were issued orders from Caussidiere, and other less scrupulous members ot his party, for the guidance of the Rouge party in France, who took their emblem from the colour of blood. He knew that it was impossible to expel these persons. He knew that it would be an infringement of our laws to attempt it, and therefore he would not ex press any regret that no means were adopted to expel them, but he was continually receiving remonstrances from the party of order in Paris against the coun tenance that was afforded to these men in this country. It was said that they wero not so ill-received as they ought to be, but he knew right well that they were not received at all, and that they received no countenance from the authorities, for they were con stantly engaged in endeavouring to stir up be tween the two countries by their vile and worthless publications. Ho knew it would be said that all this would blow over; perhaps it might, but the repeated oc currence of such misunderstandings could not blow over without leaving behind them feelings of irritation which must eventually lead to a breach of that peace, the maintenance of which to France and England, and to the whole of Europe, was of that importance which "passed all understanding." General Lahitte had stated that he had directed the letter which ho had addressed to M. Drouyn de l'Huys to Lord Palmerston. Now either M. Drouyn de l'Huys had neglected to read that letter to Lord Palmerston, in which case of course be could never expect to be employed again by the French Government; or, having read it, his Noble Friend Lord Palmerston had neglected to commu nicate it to his Noble Friend opposite, or his Noble Friend opposite did not attach to that letter the importance which he (Lord Brougham) attached to it. He would add that his opinion with regard to the rights of the question he should not form until he had read the documents. Ile would not at present give any judgment between England and France, between Lord Palmerston and Mr. Wyse on the one part, or General Lahitte on the other. If, after having considered the matter, he should consider the French Government was in the wrong, ho should be among the first and most zealous supporters .of the British Government, or if he thought we were in the wrong, he should support the French Government. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would not enter into any general discussion of the question, but would merely put his Noble and Learned Friend right as to certain facts. In the first place, the French Ambassador, as he had stated last night, had presented no letters of recall, such as wen) ordinarily pre sented when an Ambassador was recalled from a Court. In the next place the reason why M. Maris c-Olche did not attend Lord Palmerston's banquet was simply that he was not invited, because it was not usual to invite secretaries of embassies to such banquets. The Russian Am bl.ssador had written to ex,:use himself from attending on the ground of indisposition existing in his family. The papers would shortly be laid before the House, ,when, he would be prepared to enter into the whole ' question. After mutual explanations from Lord Brougham and the Marq u i s o f L ans d owne , a nd a few words from the `Marquis of Londonderry, tha subject dropped. LEASEHOLD TENURE OF LANDS (IRELAND) BILL. On the application of the Earl of WICKLOW, the fur ther progress of this Bill was postponed until after the Whitsuntide holidays. . Lord BEAUMONT presented a petition from a place kik the diocese of Limerick, praying that a portion of the temporalities of the Irish Protestant Church may be de- Voted to the relief of the poorer Roman Catholic clergy i n populous places in Ireland. EXTRAMURAL INTERMENTS. .; The Marquis of -LANSDOWNE presented a petition - numerously signed by the citizens of London in favour of extramural interments. Their Lordships then adjourned until Monday week. HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 17. The SPEAKE PRIV ATE BUSINESS the Chair at Four.o'clock. t The Lords' amendme nts to t h e following Bills were considered and agreed to!— " Kew and Petersham Vicarage. Londonderry and Enniskillen Railway. THIRD READINGS. Th• following Bills were read a third time and paned: Dublin and Drogheda Railway. London (City) Improvements. Reading Cattle Market. The following Bills, as amended. were considered and agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be read a third time _Birkenhead Dock Trustees. Swansea Dock Company. South Wales Railway (Capital). SECOND READING. The River Lee Trust Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. ROYAL ASSENT. Mr. Pullman, the Deputy- Usher of the Black Rod, appeared at th e table, a n d s ummoned the House to at tend gin at b t y he c t in r of t he Lords' to hear the Royal assent Lords' several public and private Bills, (for which see d report). The Speaker, att en d e d by iiae Sergeant,at-Arms and a few Honourable Members, immediately quitted the House to obey the summons. On his return be an .. nounced the names of the Bill s w hi ch had b een as . sented to. The LORD MAYOR of DUBLIN presented a peti tion, signed by 900 of the citizens of Dublin, praying for the abolition of capital punishments as being opposed to the spirit of Christianity; also petitions from spirit dealers in placos in Tipperary and Queen's County praying for a drawbackg the duty on spirits in bond. Lord RENDLESHAM presented a petition from Suffolk complaining of agricultural distress. Colonel LINDSAY presented a petition from Wigan against the Factory Act. Sir M. CHOLMELEY presented :a petition from a place in Lincolnshire praying the House to pass a Bill for the better suppression of female prostitution; also a petition from Louth in favour of the Marriage Bill. Mr. WYLD presented a petition from a body of Irish colliers praying that the House would establish a Go vernment inspection of mines. Mr. G. THOMPSON presented a petition praying for the abolition of church•rates. Lord NAAS presented a petition from the manufac turers of spirits in the county of Mayo praying for an alteration in the laws regarding bonded spirits in Ireland. The O'GORMAN MAHON presented a petition from the town of Ennis to a similar effect. Mr. MONSELL presented a petition from the Union of Brough complaining of deficiency of church accommo dation for the Roman Catholics of that district. Mr. B. OSBORNE presented a petiti , )n from Dr. Reid stating that his plans for the ventilation of the New House had been misrepresented, and a great national work injured in consequence, and praying that he might be allowed to state the facts of the case. Mr. Alderman SIDNEY presented a petition from the tailors of London praying for an inquiry into the griev ances of their trade. _ _ Mr. HUME presented a petition from a person in London against the Government Savings Bank Bill, and praying that some competent authority might be appointed to consider the subject of savings banks. Mr. GROGAN presented a petition from Dublin against the abolition of the office of Lord-Lieutenant. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented against Sunday labour in the Post-office. Mr. THORNELY presented a petition from a place in Staffordshire in favour of international arbitration. Mr. DUNCAN . presented a petition from a place in ScOtland in favour of the Health (Scotland) Bill. Mr: C. LUSHINGTON presented a petition praying for the abolition of church-rates. , Mr. ORD presented a petition against the Marine : Till from Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Mr. ELLIOT presented a petition from Greenock, signed by 1,168 person s aga i nst t h e M arr i age Bill. SHARNIAN CRAWFORD presented a petition from the Anti-Slavery Society of Belfast praying for the ey.-91U53i011 of Brazilian slave produce from this country; a?!: : 6 a petition from Rochdale avinst restraints on the hours of labour in factories. /1 THE SUN, ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the House at its rising should adjourn until Thursday next. He proposed to go into Committee of Supply on Thursday next, and to take votes on the navy estimates; and h also proposed to take other votes on Friday. Mr. HUME suggested that Monday would be a more convenient day to go into Committee of Supply. AFFAIRS OF GREECE. RECALL OF THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR. Mr. DISRAELI said, it having been officially an nounced that the Ambassador of the French Republic had been recalled from the Court of St. James's, and that that recall had been occasioned by conduct on the part of her Majesty's Government, supposed to be derogatory to the honour of the French Republic, he trusted ber Majesty's Government would feel the expe diency of communicating to the House the causes of an incident of such grave importance.—(Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said all he could at present state in reply to the Hon. Gentleman was that the Minister of Foreign Affairs for the French Republic informed Lord Normanby, that, in consequence of what he con sidered misconduct on the part of the British Govern ment, he thought it necessary to recall the French Ambassador. M. Drouyn de Mays had been sent here, in order to settle the affairs of Greece, and negotiations having terminated, or rather failed, it was necessary that the Ambassador who had been sent for that purpove should be recalled. He could only add that he regretted that any ill-feeling should exist on the part of the French Government, be cause there had been on the part of her Majesty's Government every wish to listen to the representations ut the Government of France with respect to the affairs of Greece, and he had hoped that the iutervention of Baron Gros, the French negotiator in Greece, would have been successful, and they were ready to afford every facility to bring the affairs to a conclusion by means of the good offices of France. Baron Gros had, for what reason he could not imagine, given up his mission on the 27th of April, and thus put an abrupt termination to all negotiations on the part of France. But had he waited in Greece until the dispatches were received from this country, which ar rived almost immediately afterwards, no doubt the matter might have been arranged, and any unpleasant misunderstanding prevented. Sir J. WALSH said it was a matter of no toriety that the document recalling the French Am bassador was read by the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the French Assembly, who stated ho had requested a copy of it to bo sent to the British Government, and he wished to know whether that document hed been communicated to the Govern ment, and was in their possession when Lord Palmerston answered a question yesterday on the affairs of Greece? Lord J. RUSSELL said no copy of that letter was re ceived by the Government. Mr. IiOEBUCK wished that there should be no mis understanding upon this serious subject.—(Hear, hear.) It might be presumed, from the explanation of the Noble Lord, that some blame attached to the French Minister, fur a breach of duty in not obeying the instructions con tained in the letter from his own Government. because, in the letter which the Foreign Minister of France read to the French National Assembly, there was a statement that the contents of that letter were to be communicated to the British Government through the Foreign Secretary of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Now what he wished to ask the Noble Lord was, simply, was the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department familiar with the contents of this letter when he made his explanation yesterday ?—(Cheers.) _ Lord JOHN RUS - SELL said there were two modes of making a diplomatic communication to the Foreign Minister, either by reading the dispatch which an am bassador had received from his Government to the Foreign Minister himself, or by leaving a copy of it for him at his official residence.—(ob, oh.) The last mode was usually adopted—(ol), on)—but in this instance that practice had been departed from—(Oh, oh) —and no copy of the dispatch was left with his Noble Friend, though it was wads known to him.—(Oh, oh.) Sir J. WALSH must trouble the Noble Lord again. Vas he to understand that although a copy of the dis patch was not formally lodged with the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, yet when the Noble Lord made his explanation yesterday he was in full possession of the contents of the dispatch.—(Cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied—No doubt the French Ambassador read to my Noble Friend the dis patch which he received from his own Government in France—(Cheers)—but, at the same time, M. Drouyn de l'Huys accompanied the reading of it with such obser vations and explanations which he thought proper to make during a long interview which followed.—(Oh.) Mr. C. ANSTEY—Perhaps the Noble Lord will allow me to take this opportunity of putting another question to him on this subject. In consequence of what has taken place in this affair, may the Marquis of Nor manby be soon expected in this country ?—(Cheer,) Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to reply that no orders had teen sent out for the Noble Marquis's return.—(Oh, ob.) The subject then dropped. BURDENS ON LAND. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to know if it was the intention of Government to bring forward any measure this session for a reduction or equalisation of the bur dens that now press upon the cultivation of land in the country. Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to reply in th© negative. ESTIMATES. Mr. HUME would be glad to know if the Noble Lord proposed to take the estimates on Thursday, be cause at present it was his (Mr. Hume's) intention to go out of town for a week.—(Laughter.) Lord J. RUSSELL said it was advisable that the motion should be made for going into Supply on Thursday, to afford Government and the House an opportunity of entering into any explanation that might he necessary on the important subject which had just dropped.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI hoped the papers relating to the Greek transaction would be laid on the table before Thursday. Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not propose to enter into any further explanation of the matter till the papers were before the House. Mr. COBDEN asked if the House was to understand that the motion for supply would be moved on Thursday, for the purpose of discussing the question of Greece, or did the Noble Lord really intend to proceed with the estimates on that day ?—(Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL proposed to go on with the votes on Thursday. Mr. E. DENISON asked what votes would be taken? _ Lord J. RUSSELL sa id h e pro p ose d to take in regu lar order the naval estimates which were not concluded, e S a r hear.) OH r 0 ECCLESIASTICAL m ari a d te t s h c h then he should proceed with the miscellaneous esti- Fmates.—(gear S E EXR S S O N H E O R U S S A E . N D THE Sir BENJAMIN HALL s!iid, it appearing by the second report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, p. 11, that on the sth day of August, 1845, and the 26th day altering and a mounting to 3,0001. were paid " for of May, 1846, sums improving the house at Exeter," he begged to ask Lord John Russell w hether any furth er sum h as been advanced f or a similar purpose; if so, the date when advanced, an d the amount, and by what authority such sums were advanced; whether any account has been rendered to the Ecclesiastical Commis sioners of the manner in which those sums have been expended, and, if so, the date of such account, and when it was rendered. Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who was almost inaudible in the gallery, was understood tosay,th a a y t , b l y B4 o 6 r , d a e r s of m Council, dated in August, 1845, and m a mounting to 5001., and not 3,0004 had been advancedsu for that purpose. That sum was advanced out of a sum of money, the dividends of which the Bishop of Exeter WAS entitled to draw. INCOMES OF THE ARCHBISHOPS AND BISHOPS. Sir B. HALL asked Lord John Russell, whether, when the Eccle siastical Commissioners last revised the incomes of the Archbishops and Bishops, they received from them a detailed account of their incomes from lands, fines, rents, and all other sources, for the purpose of show ing the gross income, and whether, in order to show the „net-income, the Archbishops and Bishops gave in under different heads the several items of expenditure) and, if not, upon what data the Ecclesiastical Commissioners fi th it e ed co t rn he sums that should be paid into the Episcopal Fund from the richer sees, and the sums that should be paid from that fund to the poorer sees; and whether and particular Commissioners will make a return of the data upon s w ja h s ic ti h ea s l u c ch om re m vi i sio . n was founded. Whether the . Eccle siastical o h f a t d h , e ur r have belongingrec ew received full and several tees , the mode in which ') such property isleased, the date of the several leases, the fines and rents re ceived by the Archbishop or Bishop, and the names of the parties to whom leases have been granted. As it appears by the return of incomes made in 1845, that the net income of the Bishop of London was re duced from 14,510/. 9s. 4d. in 1847, to 12,4811. Bs. in 1843, notwithstanding the Paddington estate was built upon during that interval, and the Bishop of Exe ter's net income fell from 2,1361. Os. 9d in 1837, to 3411. 10s. sd. in 1843, to ask whether any reasons were given for such diminutions, and if so, to what causes they are attributable ? He desired to know when the Ecclesias tical Commissioners purposed making any report of their proceedings, no report having been made for three years. Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say the returns on this subject were made by the Ecclesiastical Commis sioners septennially, and that the period for making the next return would be in 1851, when the information de sired by the Hon. Baronet would probably be furnished. LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD asked Lord John Russell on what day after the recess it was intended to propose the second reading of the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the matter was in the hands of his Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland. He (Lord John Russell) could not fix the day for the second reading of the Bill. BUOYS IN THE SOUTH CHANNEL. Mr. HUME asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any measures had been adopted to meet the wishes of ;the inhabitants of Southport (as laid before this House in petition) respecting replacing of the buoys in the South Channel, which were removed in 1846, and the removal of which has led to loss and to great incon venience to the commerce of that port and channel? . . . Sir F. BARING said the matter was one in which the Admiralty could not directly interfere. STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH SOUTH AMERICA. Sir T. D. ACLAND rose to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether a fresh contract had been entered into, or is in course of negotiation, with the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, for the improved conveyance of the mails to the West Indies and South America; and whether provision has in the former easy been made, or in the latter is intended to be made, in such contract, for requiring the packets to put in at some western port for the purpose of taking the mails on board, if such arrangement should appear to her Majesty's Govern ment, during the existence of the contract, to be condu cive to public convenience? Sir F. BARING said he was not prepared to answer the question in full detail, but he could assure the House that the subject was under consideration. ABOLITION OF THE: . LORD-LIEUTENANCY OF IRELAND. The LORD MAYOR of DUBLIN presented a peti tion signed by 10,000 of the inhabitants of Dublin against the removal of the Court of the Lord-Lieutenant from Dublin. Mr. H. GRATTAN presented petitions of a similar nature from different places in Ireland. Lord J. RUSSELL then rose. and said he was about to move for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the abolition of the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and for the appointment of a Fourth Secretary of State. In bringing thissubject before the House he was not unmind ful of the great importance of it; and, in the first place, he wished to clear away two points of misrepresenta tion which had been industriously spread abroad. The one was, that it was the intention of the Government to remove the courts of law from Dublin along with the Court of the Lord-Lieutenant. Now he could assure the house that there was not the slightest intention of any step of the sort contemplated. The other was that this was an entirely new idea, and of recent origin. The present Government had had the measure in contemplation for some time, and when Lord Clarendon went to Ireland as Lord-Lieutenant ho went with a full under standing that that office would be totally abolished, and that whether the abolition should take place in a few months or at a longer time would depend entirely on the position of Ireland and the circumstances of the Government. The general principles of the measure no one could doubt of; it was much better, as the countries were united, that their governments should be united, and that those who had the charge of the affairs of the country should be able to meet together and consult about the measures to be adopted. This view was much strengthened by the opinion of one of the greatest men that this country could boast of, who had taken a great share in the union of Ireland, and who was so imbued with this sentiment that he could scarcely bear the temporary institution of the Privy Council in that country. The Noble Lord then proceeded to read an extract from a letter of Lord Somers in the Hardwicke Papers. There were reasons at the time of the union with Ire land far maintaining an Administration in this part of the United Kingdom, for the country was then at war; still at that time the subject of the abolition of the office of Lord-Lieutenant was considered by the Crown, and although it was not thought advisable to adopt that step then, it was nevertheless the opinion of the advisors of the Crown that at some future period tho office ought to be abolished. The question for the House now to consider was, whether or no the proper period had yet arrived.—(Hear, hear.) With regard, then, to the Executive administration of Ireland, few would dispute with him that it was of the utmost importance that the great officers of state in Ireland should always be in a position to have oral communica tion with the Supreme Government itself. The officers connected with the Colonial Administration enjoyed that advantage, but in reference to Ireland, every important step or measure that was taken with regard to that country, had to be negotiated in the Government through the medium of written communications.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then proceeded to say—Although it has always happened, when I was connected with the Government, that the individuals holding the office of Lord-Lieutenant have been intimate friends of mine, and have been in constant communication with me, yet I have always felt the difficulty of being obliged to ask, by letter, for explanations of the measures necessary to be taken, and to ask for answers to the objections that might naturally arise upon the proposals that may have been submitted to the Government. I consider this a disadvantage, in the first place, to the Imperial Govern ment of this country; but, in the second place, I believe it to be a much greater disadvantage to Ireland. I be lieve Ireland to be a great loser by not having a Minis ter in the Cabinet—(Hear)--who can explain the inte rests of that country on any particular question, who can state the course of policy which it may be desirable to pursue, and who can enforce, by means of his prac tical knowledge and by the ability which he can bring to the task, the adoption of the course which he would recommend.—(Hear, hear.) I say, therefore, that I think the keeping up of the Lord-Lieutenancy in Ireland is a disadvantage to Ireland in con ducting Irish business, whether administrative or legisletive.—(Hear, hear.) And so greatly has this been felt, that on more than one occasion a Chief Se cretary for Ireland has been placed in the Cabinet for the purpose of discussing Irish measures. The House must see that this is a remedy which could only have been had recourse to owing to the deficiency of the con struction of "an Administration in Ireland, because, to have a Lord-Lieutenant in Ireland, and to allow his se cretary a seat in the Cabinet, to give orders to his own chief, is in principle most objectionable.—(Hear, hear.) Sometimes it has been found exceedingly convenient, but at other times, as I can testify myself, and as it obviously must happen when a Chief Secretary is a man of great talents and great energy; in fact, the government of Ire land is vested in the Chief Secretary, and the views which aro carried into effect are not those of the Lord-Lieute nant but of his secretary. If this, then, is the case, I say it would be a great benefit, both on general princi ples cf administration and also in the management of affairs, if you had a chief in the Cabinet, and his under secretary, like other under-secretaries, to consult and advise with upon various matters that may arise. But, Sir, while the present inconvenience has been al. ways felt to be considerable, objections have been stated which at the time were plausible, and perhaps conclusive, that it was impossible to give orders in suf ficient time to be carried to Ireland; that it was neces sary to have an executive on the spot, and more espe cially on important occasions, such as those affecting the life of a convict who might be reprieved by the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, but, owing to some change of wind or delay in the journey, might not receive the benefit of the pardon or commutation granted him. Now, Sir, however valid these arguments might have been in former times, the whole force of them is done away with by the change which has taken place in the means of locomotion throughout the country.—(Hear, hear.) Upon that subject there is no document which I can pro duce which would be so convincing as a publication well known to Hon. Members, called " Bradshaw's Railway Guide."—(A laugh.) Any person who will con sult that interesting work will find that a steamer arrives in Kingstown Harbour at half-past ten at night with the intelligence which leaves London in the morning, and that a person in about seven hours can travel from Dublin to Cork by the South- Western Railway. That is a rapidity of communication which far exceeds that which existed between this country and Scotland at the time of the union, when ahe separate administration was abolished—(Hear)—.a ra pidity of communication which refutes and puts an end to all those arguments which were derived from the dif tuilvtey teo f c carryei ee intonic ati on rapida n e d ffe t e h t e t n h e e c e ssi desiresty e a n n d e t x h e e s cu general reasons regarding administration t w h i e s s h e e s e e r ef the ee general Government.—(llear, hear.) Si r , and legislation which make me think it desirable to abolish the Lord-Lieutenancy, and to put a Secretary of State in the place of the Lord-Lieutenant. But if we refer to Ireland, and ask what benefits the Lord-Lieute nthaentcyinconmforaseyuproenspetehtast c t o h u e nt es r x il te think we e Lieutenancy is far more injurious than beneficial.— (Hear, hear.) And I t hi n k t h ere are seve ral points of existence o f that shall L Lord- Lieutenancy in which that injury may be made apparent to the House. In the first place, the Lord-Lieutenant is placed in an anomalous kind of position. He is asked for everything, applied to for everything, and blamed for everything, and yet not having that power which o h u tt gthntett othe belong m t u o n i h ty i s o s t f a t t h i o e n . r y ll a l e d g a n s i t t y h ; e h s e e m h b a l s a lance, responsibility but not the freedom of action of a minister of the Crown. He is, therefore, obliged to bear much without answering, and to appear to defend himself with great reserve, and he cannot take the line which a minister of the Crown can take to defend his course; and at the same time he is not looked to with any of that reverence which attends the person of the Sovereign. " The divinity that doth hedge a king " gives but small protection to a viceroy. We have seen in our own time that the representative of royalty has been the mark for factious and seditious attacks. We have seen that no character, no kind of authority, no former ser vices, have saved Lord-Lieutenants from such attacks. We can remember the violent outrages against Lord Wellesley when he went to Ireland, with all the elm. LONDON, • SATURDAY EVENING, MAY lB, the whole there will be a saving, but at the same time there will be clerks and other persons who cannot, after a very long period of service, be removed without com pensation or superannuation.—(Hear, hear.) It is right I should soy, at this part of the case, that as there is no provision in the civil list for any expenses that may he incurred in respect of the visits of her Majesty, there may be cases when—not to the amount which was ex peaded when George the Fourth visited Ireland—but when to some amount a call may be made to defray such extraordinary expenses.—(Hear.) These visits tend so much to make her Majesty acquainted with the feelings of her people and afford them so much gratification, that I consider it most desirable they should be continued, and I am sure • the House will have no hesitaticn in making such grants as may be sufficient for the purpose. I have stated that this change has been in eontemplation for some time—that I think it will be an improvement in the general government of Ireland—and that it will enable the Irish Minister, whoever he may be, to bring before the Cabinet and before Parliament measures with more completeness and more successfully than he would be able to do if he resided at Dublin. I have stated that, as far as Ireland is concerned, there will be great advan tage in the change. I have stated also, Kith regard to the local effect of a viceroy, that, however able, however well-disposed he may be to act' impartially, it is totally impossible for him to take such a line as to escape tee resentment and obloquy of one extreme party, and that his presence tends to keep alive and embitter party feel ings.—(Elear.) I have stated also that I think the pre sence of a Government in Dublin leads to a perpetual reference of questions to the Government hero on which they ought not to be consulted, and that the cessa tion of that reference will be a benefit to the people of Ireland in the future administration of the affairs of that country.—(Hear.) I have stated also that I think there is nothing in the maintenance of the Viceregal Court which ought to induce the House to refrain from abolishing the institution, and that her Majesty's Court in London is the natural and.proper re sort for her subjects.—(ilear.) I will state finally, that I think, whether persons aro favourable to the union of the two countries or not, they must all agree that this institution should not be kept up. If they are favourable to the union, and adhere to it as a settled and established part of the institutions of this country, as I do myself, I would then say if Mr. Pitt had been able to propose this completion of the union at the time when he orig.- nally brought it forward ho would have followed the ex ample of Lord Somers. Now the circumstances are fa vourable. To those who think the union should not exist I say that they ought not to be satisfied with a partial representation, which does not give a Parliament —which does not give any power—but which, in fact, while it does not give to the people of Ireland the right of having an official representative among the Ministers of Eng land, gives them nothing in the shape of local power as a substitute.—(Hear, hear.) In conclusion I will sly that I trust in the circumstances of the time being favourable to the abolition proposed. It happens that Lord Clarendon in his administration of the viceroyalty has had to encounter the effects of a famine—the dread ful sufferings caused by want and disease—he has had to meet the outbreak of an insurrection, which was in tended to overthrow British power in that country. Some of these difficulties having been overcome, I. trust in the mercy of God that we may bo spared any similar infliction.—(Hear.) And now, when the country is area quil—now, when it is governed peaceably, and at she same time firmly, by the Lord-Lieutenant, I think the fitting time has arrived when we may safely provide for the abolition of the Viceroyalty by merging its substi tuted and delegated authority in the general power of the United Kingdom,—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord con clurled by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the abolition of the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and for the appointment of a fourth Secretary of State. The question having been put, Mr. GRATTAN rote to oppose the motion. He thought the Noble Lord had made out a feeble case in deed in support of the motion. It was remarkable that no notice had been taken of a measure of such import ance in the Speech from the Throne. He bad risen on the present occasion to lift up his voice against the abolition of this last remnant of Irish dignity.—(Hear.) Thank God he was not yet a disciple of the Manchester school. The Noble Lord had talked of different Lords- Lieutenant having been bearded by individuals. But whose fault was it that they had not been respected and beloved ? The Irish people were not to be deceived by these flimsy statements; it was but right that they should have the opportunity of seeing their ruler face to face. They could not come across the water for that purpose, or peep through the tube to which the Noble Lord re ferred. The Government well knew why Lord Claren don was so unpopular, and why he had not a fraction of the people to support him, except the persons who were to be hanged at Ballingarry.—(A laugh.) If Ministers withdraw the Lord-Lieutenant they must send over two Commanders-in-Chief.—(Laughter.) There would be no saving of expense in that. Why, what was the present case? It was only Downing-street versus Dublin. The Noble Lord had laid the venue in St. Stephen's, because he thought he was sure of a verdict. But he (Mr. Grattan) challenged the array. He told the Noble Lord that he was asking for what he had not the right to ask. Since 1361 there had been ninety-four Lords- Lieutenant in Ireland. The office was one of popular creation and ought not to Le abolished without consulting the people. He advised the Noble Lord to stay procedure on his Bill. When the question of the union was before the House, Mr. Pitt said that Ireland could not justly complain, became it was not proposed to remove the Lord- Lieutenant.—(Bear, hear.) Lord Kilwarden said that Dublin would remain the perpetual residence of the re presentative of his Majesty. But the Noble Lord said " No." He would ask the House just to mark the honesty of Downing-street, in a transaction to which he would refer. When some measure had been proposed for the benefit of Ireland in the Parliament of that country, a missionary had been sent over from England, who actually proposed to bribe Lord Charlemont and Mr. Grattan, and the condition of the bribe was, that they should use their influence to de lay the question before the House, in order to give the British Ministry time to conrider what they had better do. Lord Charlemont and Grattan, though brave men and at the head of §O,OOO volunteers, had not, like Napoleon, made fight, but retreated before the foe, and the one retired to Merino and the other to Celbridge, but they were uncorrupted and incorruptible. They had, however, brought forward the measure in a few days afterwards, and the result was, that they convinced the Duke of Portland aad Mr. Fitzpatrick of the neccessity of their proposition. These two functionaries had, ac cordingly made certain representations on the subject, which the Irish people had subsequently pronounced as "vigorous, faithful, and useful."—(Hear, hear.) He would now give the House another case. In 1785, under the Lord-Lieutenancy of the Duke of Rutland, a question had arisen between England and Ireland on which eleven propositions had been brought for ward in favour of the trade of Ireland. The Par liament had then granted 140,0001., having pre viously granted 100,000/. and 20,000 seamen to man the British fleet. The Lord-Lieutenant having agreed to those eleven propositions they were accord ingly sent over to England. But what had the Downing street Secretary done? Why, he made twenty-two re solutions out of them, but they had never been agreed to or carried into effect. He came next to 1795, when Lord Fitzwillians, than whom a more high-minded, honourable, and patriotic man could not be found, went over to Ireland, with promises from Mr. Pitt in favour of the Roman Catholics; but on that occasion, also, the Irish people were deceived. He thought the Govern ment were mistaken in the course they were at present pursuing, and were laying down a bad precedent, which they ought to avoid. They should adhere to expressions and the spirit of treaties, which had been passed. No thing could be worse than for a Minister to lay down doctrines of popular infidelity, and that was done when it was proposed to break national compacts.—(Hear.) He had quoted examples of jobbing and misconduct on the part of Irish. Secretaries : he would come to a few specimens of a similar kind in England. Did they suppose that no such thing had ever existed there ? Had Honourable Members ever heard of the cases of a Trotter, a Steele, or a Melville? Had they any recollections of numbers of military officers who had figured at the bar of that House in matters between one Mrs. Clarke and the Duke of York? The Hon. Member here called attention to the names of various Lords- Lieutenant of Ireland, whose families had been distin guished for their benevolence and general encouragement of all charitable institutions, as well as patronage of arts, sciences, manufactures, and civilization. Perhaps the present proposition might: be intended as a matter to re concile all parties. They might perhaps have a Marquis of Ballingarry or a Duke of Dolly's Brae to arrange the political affairs of Ireland.—(Laughter.) He was glad to see his Hon. Friend the Member fur Montrose (Mr. Hume) back again in his place.—(Laughter.) He could assure his Hon. Friend, who had left the House for some time, that there was no economy in that measure. —(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume.) His Hon. Friend had said that the Scottish people were an economical race because they wore no furs—(Laughter)—on their garments. He feared such would be the habits of the people of Ireland after the passing of that measure. He could not congratulate the Noble Lord on the time or the moment which he had chosen to bring forward his present measure.—(Hear.) They had 40,000 soldiers and 10,000 policemen at present in Ireland, and the people were flying in hundreds of thousands from the country. Was it possible that the inhabitants would be departing from the soil of their birth in such numbers if there were not some more radical defect in its social and political condition than the removal of a Lord-Lieutenant ? The people never had much money ; but the little they had they saved for emigrating. They went to look for cheap government. They left this em pire in despair, and that was the reason why the table of the House was not covered with petitions. The frieze•coated people, whether Roman Catholic or Orangemen, were leaving the soil, because English legis lation had rendered it an uninhabitable country. In 1848 and 1849, not less than 408,000 people had gone to America, not to the British colonies, however, but to the United States.—(Hear, hear.) They talked of economy, but he could teach them what it really was. The people were going for cheap government from a land where it cost 55,000,000/. annually to where it only cost 7,000,000/. The people of Dublin op. posed the present measure because it would be injurious in many respects as well a s ruinous to them. It would be injurious, also, to the gentry of Ireland, in obliging them to come over here to enjoy those associations and communica tions of refined and literary society which they could now enjoy • in their own metropolis. It had been said— and the prediction was now about to be verified —that one of the results of the union would be that the Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland would be taken away. Now, he would advise them if they lost their Secretary for France to keep their Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. It was said, indeed, they would not take away the courts of law from Dublin; but be would ask them what was to become of the Irish charities?—(Hoar.) Grants were said to be made for Irish charities by the Imperial Legislature; ratter and fame which had attended his viceroyalty in India. We can remember that, as it was truly said, some vagabonds exposed Mr. Addington to the im putation and attacks of being a partisan cf the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. We can all recollect that the Marquis of Anglesey, who was actuated by the best and kindest motives towards Ireland, was de nounced as the " Algerine Anglesey," end described as a tyrant and a despot, and held up in the most odious light to the people of Ireland. When the Marquis of Normanby was in Ireland, and the great majority of the Roman Catholics were disposed to favour his viceroyalty, a number of persons of high rank refused to attend the levees at the Castle, and did not pay that respect which was due to the representative of the Sovereign, because they disapproved of the line of policy which he pursued. —(Hear, hear.) We have had since that time other de monstrations of a similar kind. Ido not wish particu larly to refer to those which have more recently taken place; but all these instances have shown that those who are disposed to oppose the politics of a particular vice roy are rather excited to that attack than deterred from it by the representation and the reflection of royalty which he appears to exhibit. It seems to be a very great thing and a grand display of patriotism to brave and bully a viceroy in the Castle of Dublin. A Secretary of State, be be attacked, may be blamed, may but he possesses freedom v w i e el a en ll tly know, e may be of action—ho can take his part in this House or in the other House of Parliament, and neither the Crown nor the Sovereign of the country suffers from the debates which take place with regard to acts for which he is obviously responsible.—(Hear, hear.) In the next place, I think all the past history of the Viceroyalty in Ireland shows that it tends to prevent that harmony and that effective and impartial adminis tration which ought to exist. In former and past days the Viceroyalty bore the semblance of a party, strong, powerful, and energetic, but unjust and intolerant. Those times have passed away. No Government which has existed of late years has attempted to govern by means of that party. But at the same time the consequence of that change has been, that those who formerly possessed the power, and who considered themselves entitled to support at the Castle, are rather irritated and embittered by being deprived of that power—(Bear, hear)—while the great body of the Roman Catholics of Ireland are apt to feel jealous lest that partial administration should not altogether have ceased, and they look at the Viceroyalty with some fear that that spirit of partiality may be revived.— (Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, by mixing and compounding the administratio n o f? Ireland with the general adminis tration of the United Kingdom, you would get rid of those feelings. You would not have a minority of Irish people thinking that they ought to have a separate ad ministration, for themselves, for they would be bound up together with the great body of the Protestants of this country, and on the other hand the Roman Catholics would not look to anything else than that fair and equal share which they ought to have in the administration of the United Kingdom.—(Hear.) Sir, I do not know that against these objections, which seem to me of vast weight, any argument can bo adduced to show the House that we ought not to destroy this separate Court in Ireland, unless indeed it be the access which it gives to a great number of the nobility and gentry of that country. It appears to me that the:e is no reason, while the Queen herself is but ,12 hours' distant, that there should be any other court than her own, and I think that those who wish to pay the homage of their loyalty might very well resort to her Majesty herself for that purpose.—(flear.) And I am cf opinion that the presence of a viceroy, his levees and his drawing-rooms, rather tend to meted Shan to reflect the splendour of the Throne.—(Hear.) On the other hand I cannot but think that in this respect, as well as in ,many others, the Irish are losers by a continuaece of the Vice-royalty.—(Hear.) I think the habits of expense into which many persons were led in taking their fami lies from a great distance to Dublin when they would otherwise remain in the country, or sometimes pay an occasional visit to London—l cannot but think that such habits frequently operate very injuriously. There is, moreover, another evil connected wiat that. facility of resort to Dublin. I have already said that the Lord- Lieutenant is applied to for everything, asked for every thing, and blamed for everything. Now, upon many subjects no person in England or Scotland ever thinks of asking advice of the Government or the Secretary of State. There are many matters upon which magis trates and others are content to decide in the best man ner they can, leaving the ultimate judgment to the su perior courts. But the tact of a viceroy residing in Dublin, surrounded with his legal advisers and others, leads to continual applications by parties wishing to ob tain an opinion or some advice, which it is not the busi ness or duty of a Minister of the Crown to give. It would be far better, according to the practice in Eng land and Scotland, that the magistrates and the people should be taught to rely on their own interpretation of the law, and that only upon rare occasions should they resort to the Ministers of the Crown for advice. I think that would be one of the results arising from the aboli tion of the Lord-Lieutenancy. But with regard to other and more important occasions the alteration would bo very beneficial. Large deputations are continually in the habit of waiting on the Lord-Lieutenant. The Lord- Lieutenant accepts their memorial. He can only say that be will transmit it to England. It is then sent to the Treasury or the Home-office, and there considered. The whole case, perhaps, is not fully stated, and the Lord-Lieutenant not having the power to decide, and the Treasury or the Secretary of State not possessing all the requisite information, neither the appeal nor the deci sion is so satisfactory as it ought to be. But in these rare and important cases, if the Secretary of State in Lon don was resorted to, the whole case might be gone through, the whole of the circumstances might be ex plained, and the decision would then be considered con clusive. Sir, I do not think it would be desirable that Ireland, when deprived of its Lerd-Lieutenant, should never have the opportunity of seeing its Sore reign.—(Hear, hear.) And I have great pleasure in stating, though without being able to name any parti cular time at which her Majesty will visit Ireland, that it is her Majesty's intention from time to time to pay a visit to Ireland—(Cheers)—and that the residence in the Phoenix-park will be maintained for her Majesty's use.—(Continued cheering.) I can truly say that the manner in which her Majesty was received upon her visit last year, and the demonstrations of loyalty and affection which sprung so universally and spontaneously from the people, have left a deep impression upon her Majesty's mind, and that her Majesty will at all times be happy to take the opportunity of revisiting her sub jects in that part of the United Kingdom.—(Cheers.) I will now, Sir, proceed to state the manner in which I propose that the change shall take place. I propose, that after the passing of the Act, her Majesty may, at any time she may think it expedient, issue an order in Council to carry it into effect. I propose, in the next place, that another Secretary of State shall be appointed, in addition to the present Secretaries, for the purpose of carrying on the important business connected with Ireland. I will not say that the arrange ment will entail upon the new Secretary all the duties which at present devolve upon the Lord-Lieutenant, be cause it may be more convenient that some of his func tions should be exercised by the Secretary of State for the Home Department. But I own, considering the im mense amount of business connected with Ireland, with out mentioning those unnecessary appeals to which I have alluded—and considering also the number of Irish measures which it is necessary to prepare for the con sideration of Parliament—l do not think it would be possible for the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment, charged as he has been of late years with so many duties which did not formerly belong to his office—l do not think it would be possible for him effectually to perform all the duties which aro now performed by the Lord-Lieu tenant and the Chief Secretary for Ireland. I believe it would be better upon the whole to keep the Lord-Lieu tenant, with all the disadvantages which I have stated, than to attempt to throw this immense mass of business into an office which is already sufficiently full, if not overloaded, with business of other descriptions.—(Hear, hear.) I propose, therefore, that power should be given for the appointment of another Secretary of State, not of course dividing his functions from those of the other Secretaries of State. He will, of course, be charged with the affairs relating to Ireland, but, like the other Secre taries of State, he will be capable of discharging every function and duty belonging to a Secretary of State. I think it would be very inconvenient if he should not be capable of discharging the duties of the other secretaries, or if they should not be prepared in their turn in his ab sence to dispatch the business connected with the Irish department of affairs.—(Hear.) The Bill which has been drawn up proposes-that the different powers now exercised by the Lord-Lieutenant and the Privy Coun cil should be exercised by her Majesty and the Privy Council, and that the new Secretary of State and one Un der-Secretary shall have the power of sitting in the House of Commons. With regard to those powers possessed by the Privy Council in Ireland which are of a judicial nature, I propose to leave them with that Privy Coun cil, the Lord Chancellor being const i t uted th e President of the Council, or, in his absenc e, souse other P r i vy Councillor named by her Majesty. With respect to th e several other powers belonging to the Lord-Lieut enant of Ireland upon the advice or the recommendation of the Privy Council in Ireland, we propose that that re commendation should be made through the Privy Coun cil in Ireland to her Majesty , and that he r Majesty should exercise those power s.—(Hear. ) The board which we have recently created —the board of Poor-law Commissioners for Ireland —will not exist in the contem plation of this Act in the m anner in which it is at pre sent constituted. The Chief Secretary and the Under- Secretary for Ireland are members of that board. We account con template incurring of the poor-law board ; but w e think i t necessary that the assistant commissioner shou ld t ake a place at the propose to abolish the office of assistant com missioner, to make the assistant commissio ner ono of t he commis sioners, with a salary, to be fixed b y the Lo rds of the Treasury, a nd that one other perso n should be named to complete that peony board. o r- a l d awditienalexpense We do no on board of comm i ss i one rs, and have the power of exercising the functions now exercised by the chief poor-law com missioner. The present assistant poor-law commissioner (Mr. Ball) will naturally become under the Act a com missioner. I know not that there is anything more in this early stage of the measure which I need explain to the House. The Bill has been for some months under the review of the Government of Ireland, as well as of those parties who have framed its provisions in this country, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland has very carefully considered its provisions with the view of as certaining its bearing upon the existing Acts. Of course, when the Bill comes before the House the matter will require great attention, and those who are fully cognisant of the Acts which gave powers to the LordeLieutenant will see whether our object has been carried into effect in a manner which will provide tor the future good government of Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) I have not touched upon one part of the subject, which in the eyes of some persons may be of considerable impor tance, but which I consider as nothing in reference to the magnitude of the scheme—l mean the question of expense or economy in carrying it into effect. On the 1850. but they had diminished from 300,000/. down to 175,0001., and it appeared these were to be lessened 10 per cent. gradually until they were entirely done away with. Now this he thought a most discreditable thing, for he could tell them those grants were made out of the money of the Irish people themselves. They only supported eleven now out of all the charities, yet they took away the Irish nobility and the Irish gentry, and now proposed taking away the Irish Court. What was to support these charities then? The charities now amounted to 61—and what was to become of them hereafter? There wore many cases with respect t o th e a d m i n i strat i on o f justice, and in which human life was concerned, wherein it was essen tial that immediate communication should take place be tween the Lord-Lieutenant, judges, and juries. How could that be done so promptly with a Secretary in Downing-street? The declining state of the funds of the Lying-in Hospital recently obliged the governors of that institution to address letters to 400 of the Irish no bility, and to these appeals only 14 answers had been sent, and subscriptions to the amount of only 15/. Such was the state to which Dublin had been brought. Not only was Dublin sunk, but the country itself was ruined. Hon. Gentlemen said there were good accounts from Ireland. What did that mean? Why, that the sun shone there and the rain fell there as usual; but the people were flying from the country, the tenants were unable to pay any rents, and the gentry, who were com pelled to remain, were thrown into indigence. The Honourable Member here went into a detail of a case wherein some 40 persons who had been evicted from their houses in the neighbourhood of a factory, and who would not be permitted to enter any house in con sequence of the fears entertained of their communicat ing infectious disease, had been compelled to sleep on a cold night in the open air, on some straw provided for them by the chance humanity of an individual; and one woman had taken in an orphan infant into her house after nightfall to shelter it from the inclemency of the weather, and kept it with her own family. In the year 1801, immediately after the passing of the Act of Union, there had been 161 members of the nobi lity residing in Dublin, and spending there annually a sum of 2,000,000/. ; but in the year 1831 their number had been reduced to thirteen, and their annual expendi ture to 96,000/. And in the year 1850 they amounted only to three, and their annual expenditure to only 20,000/. The office of the Lord-Lieutenant in Ireland had been granted, not by charter but by compact, and that House had no right to violate the compact. Ire land had placed herself completely at the service of the people of England ; she had given them her blood and her treasure ; she had given them a Gough and a Wellington, and had immortalised the English name, They asked her for her heart, but that they had for feited, for the price they had set on it was dishonour. Mr. GROGAN seconded the motion for meeting the proposal of her Majesty's Government with a decided negative. The fact of his rising to second that motion ought, he thought, to convince her Majesty's Minis ters that Irishmen of the most opposite shades of poli tical opinion were opposed to that measure as one fraught with injury and injustice to their country. He regretted to find that during a discussion of that importance there was not a single Cabinet Minister on the Treasury benches.—(The Hon. Gentleman was here informed that Mr. F. Maule was present.) He had not at first seen the Right Hon. Gentleman; but he cer tainly could not help observing that none of those lead ing members of the Cabinet who ought to feel pecu liarly interested in such a discussion had thought proper to remain in the House to hear the case which Irish Members might endeavour to make out in favour of their country upon that occasion. That circumstance only led him to apprehend that they had come to a determina tion to carry the measure, whatever might be the force of The arguments advanced against it. On the motion of an HoN. MEMBER, the House was here counted, but it having been ascertained that there were forty Members present, the debate was continued. Mr. GROGAN resumed—He believed the object of that measure was neither more nor less than centralisa tion. All the Irish establishments were one by one being transferred to this great metropolis. But was it safe, he would ask—was it just, was it wise, was it politic to continue such a system? He confessed he had never heard less conclusive arguments than those by which the Noble Lord had attempted to support his proposal. The Noble Lord had talked of the desirable ness of establishing a means of oral communication be tween the Government and the great officer of state at the head of the Irish Administration ; but ho (Mr. Grogan) had reason to believe that it was still more desirable that a means of oral communication should exist between that high func tionary and the parties charged with the administration of the law in Ireland. Then, again, the Noble Lord had said that the abolition of the viceregal court would have the effect of preventing the Irish gentry from spending money at a distance from their estates; but it should be remembered that the Irish gentry would still have the inducement held out to them of spending their money in this great metropolis, and by that means further increas ing the centralising system. Another argument put forward by the Noble Lord was that the Irish magis trates ought to be deprived of the temptation to consult perpetually the Irish Government on the internal admi nistration of their respective districts. But the Irish magistrates knew by experience that they could not with safety follow the dictates of their own judgments, because on more than one occasion, when they had devoted their best exertions to the carrying out of the law, they had been censured for having done so. The Noble Lord had further stated, that under the arrangement which he had proposed, the Secre tary of State for Ireland would be on the spot to defend himself in Parliament. But it should be remembered that that functionary should rely for his defence on the information which he might receive from his subordinates in Ireland. He did not deny that by the adoption of the proposal of the Noble Lord, a small money saving might be effected; but he feared that that trifling advantage would be purchased at the cost of a great increase of discontent and suffering in Ireland. The office of the Lord-Lieutenant afforded a last rem nant of what Ireland had been previously to the union. Where were the nobility who had then resided in Dub lin? They had left her impoverished and decayed streets. And the adoption of the proposal of the Noble Lord would consummate the ruin of that city. Such a system must, in the end, re -act on this country. Dublin had some time ago been on a smaller scale what Lon don was at present; but it was impossible to picture to one's-self the misery she had of late years been suffer ing. And why was that last blow to be inflicted on her? He found no petitions in favour of the measure, and no indications that it was called for by public opinion. One of the grounds on which Lord Castle reagh had defended the union was, that it would leave Ireland a court, and with it so many of the amuse ments of polished life, that there could be no induce ment for the Irish gentry to reside in the great capital of the empire. It appeared from statistical returns which he held in his hand that the amount of capital and the number of hands employed in all the great branches of trade in Dublin, and in many of the other principal cities of Ireland, had greatly decreased since the union; and the decrease was still going on without interruption. Crime had.at the same time increased, in consequence of the great poverty and distress of the people. If the Lord-Lieutenantey were abolished, many wealthy families would no doubt leave Dublin, and then the artisans and tradesmen who depended for their means of subsistence chiefly on the expenditure of those families would be reduced to a state of hopeless ruin. The population were leaving the country. Those who had escaped the pestilence were fast emigrating to the United States—the Government of which might perhaps to-morrow be found in a hostile attitude to this country. It would be well for the Government to pause in the course which they were pursuing. They all knew the complaints which had been made of the manner in which some districts of England had been inundated with Irish pauperism. They had also seen the manner in which the Irish poor had been sent back to their own country, and how a lazaretto had been estab lished to check the communication between one part of the United Kingdom and another. They had over laden Ireland till she could no longer bear up against the burden. Look at what was passing in the Encumbered Estates. Courts. Some bold men were found to pur chase, and he hoped they would continue to do so, but what had become of the original owners of the soil? They were being swept away to make room for new proprietors, who could not be expected to cherish the same sentiments and attachments to the spot as their predecessors. The result of the course they were pur suing would soon be to drive every man of consequence from Ireland, which would then become a wretched co lony, governed by tax-gatherers and excisemen. Had time and opportunity been afforded, the people of Ire land would have made known their sentiments to the House in the shape of petitions. His own consti tuents, convinced that the measure would inflict on teem lasting injury, had expressed their sentiments on the subject, with which he concurred. The Noble Lord said the present moment was favourable be cause Ireland was in a tranquil state, but that tran quillity was the tranquillity of exhaustion. There were many establishments in Dublin —he alluded to the medical charities—which received 20,000/. a year from the Imperial Government, the remnant of its paternal care previous to the union. This was in a course of reduction. It was stated also that the esta blishment for old soldiers was to be brought over and centralised here. He belived that Scotland and the pro vinces of this country had felt the mischievous effects of centralisation, but above all Dublin. In conclusion he had only to state that, in whatever shape such a propo sition as the present might be brought before the House, he would give it every opposition in his power. Mr. FAGAN saidahat although he generally followed the dictates of his own judgment, yet, if in Ireland he knew the general feeling to be against it—if the people had expressed any decided opinion against it—if the in habitants of Dublin were anxious to oppose the propo sition, he should feel bound to bow to their decision: But he did nut believe the people of Ireland were, gene rally, opposed to this measure. On the contrary, his ex perience taught him to believe that if not in its favour, a great portion of the popular party in Ireland were di vided on the question. He agreed with the Noble Lord that whether the Irish people were desirous of having a real and complete union with this country, or whether they clung to the hope of obtaining a domestic Legislature, the abolition of the Lord-Lieutenancy was favourable to either view.— (Hear, hear.) On the one hand it would be impossible to have a real and complete union as long as they had a mere proconsular Govern ment in Ireland, instead of the direct rule of the Sove reign, through the instrumentality of a Secretary of State, having a seat in the Cabinet; and, on the other hand, Ireland would never have any chance of carrying out their'favourite project of establishing a domestic Parlia ment unless they had union among themselves, which could never exist as long as they had a Lord-Lieutenant. Of what avail had the offiee been? From the time of Henry 11. to the time of Annethe, Lords-Lieutenant were a kind of military chiefs, whose only employment was to keep down the Irish people, oppress the Catholic population, destroy the manufactures, and foster an English party by every mode of corruetion ene• ° se re, Amongst all that had filled the„office Lord-Liutes_ et he could only point to four aho had really the interests; Ireland at heart; and they had, within the last few t r. seen how two of these were treated on this side the a`` and the m ar quis oriC., er ; Lord Anglesey, was removed, manby subjected to every species of persecutione.o4 must, therefore, maintain that the existence of th efi l o of Lord-Lieutenant could not in any way be L l i ss tioa to Ireland. He had as great objections to centre this as any man; but those objections did net apply I ,' J ss o f case. Had the Lord-Lieutenant been surrounded yore with an exchequer and a military establishr,el3; with customs and excise, entailing a vast expendielsoe e ats , could see the force of the objections; but all th, tot ioa blishments had been removed, except the adusini s e t he 'Lod' of justice and the police. He could not reottellyof Bard to necessity for maintaining the gewgaw offi Lieutenant any longer. The statement with r o l e e rc• the expenditure in Dublin, which it was suppos e " ..-„a be mote, he believed to be gr ea tly exaggerate d e , pe achteea t to at believed, moreover, that, taking the eu 100,0001. annually, more than three-fourths ..scrarea pay for English servants and English ma d sae When he looked to Edinburgh and Glasgow, a e orotr y, them flourishing without any such empty Peg t s ec he rejoiced to think that Ireland had a prospect ° _e t be tins; rid of the encumbrance. Had the feeling s ,,f Irish people been adverse to the Bill, the tahl e ed the House would have been loaded with petitions, an Lord Mayor would not have come down with s a ,,P oo ooo. signed by only 10,000 out of a populetion of bo gs Sir H. Parnell once said that if they w ished t° 0 . the feeling of the people of Ireland, and win the'. .0 fidence, they could only achieve that by- abolislii.nagt tio office of Lord-Lieutenant. His conviction was tD , d.e rce measure would be serviceable to Ireland, and wok e ' a ss duce union instead of discord.—(Hear, hear.) P igo ele delighted to hear the announcement made by hear-) the • pay Lord that it was the intention of her Majesty f o re f equetst visits to Ireland, for he believed th at one woo night's residence of her Maj e sty at Phoenix Par l ‘ g aol produce more expenditur e than that caused by r e Lord Lieutenant in a whole year. • st t be Mr. M. O'CONNELL said he would vote tsga lrl f Bill. He stood there not as the representative etteto. particular portion of Ireland, nor even as au Irish,' o d ber, but as a Member of the Imperial Parliameelsbo to as such bound to look to Imperial interests We r° , iro DO argue the question a s a Repealer, he cou ld do a greater boon than the measure proposed. W ere hip argue it as a Catholic, he should regard it as off ering riaa the most speedy means o f gett i ng rid of the ter e P e rttle ties of the Church of E ng land in Ireland. Tbtefdifelt knew the inherent lov e which thepeople of 'T e l e e- ol3g for institutions which h a d b een l ong in exiatene them. e ater Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped it would not b e Pr-d, to tuous in an English Memb er connected with Ireleh address a few observations on the present qu estion. oll o must say that he could not a d m i re the extr aT h e e r rr genius, if he might so t erm it, o f t h e lion. 1 11 ° 19 , - yea' Meath, who had opposed th e mo ti on o f the Nob'enolill He must also con g r a t u l a t e t h e L or d Mayor of •v f ass on having found a coll eague w h o h a d made one of Lest repeal speeches he h a d ever h ear d. Wi! h ne r a t ios' to the question before the House, it lay, lt l h is se - le tbs er in the narrowest comp ass . Th e question was ye e res; the period had arrived w h en I re l and was to beg ° o rat e d like Scotland and Wal es , an d b e v i rtua lly jecoffe oes with England? H e s h ou ld not v i ew t h e questirissig° of mere saving or ex p ense —h e wou ld not vie - mon' one of vulgar arithm e ti c , nor as regar ded the P5l ea age of the Lord-Lieutenant—but as a question °boo street policy of that country. If it could b e , ai n sess that the retention of the office of Lord-Liell tell e fril b , bound up with the feelings and prejudices of tifr eat see people, he would say that it ought not to be CO 11 "' t - r afi , on the parsimonious plea of expense. On th e e°l3 et ° he should in that case consider it as cheap a P s .g e2 Be l the most ardent financial reformer could des tre ; o etie ll now that steam power had rendered the conslet le i e r re; SO rapid and certain, he could see no ne cessitY of taining the office. li e b e li eve d t h at t h e reten tl° oB 4 the office would make the union an accoalP earl ° theory, and that so far from the Irish Polo being in favour of it, they were indifferent sea c ell ; e rlis; and in that case he th oug ht i t was t h e dutY, T o ' he tiew ment to remodel the execut i ve o f Ireland. I ns - ed eg e, that the greatest mis c hi e f h a d b een caus ed by Tor vouring to engraft English institutions I. l P eu t b e habits. For one, he would not be deterred hi; 001 of centralisation, because it was not proposed 0 1:100' with the courts of l aw or t h e pu bli c or charitab oast tutions, or to rob hi s Ri g h t H on. F r i en d t he ra d ees of of his civic crown.—(A l aug h .) H e s h ou ld be object the first to object t o any such proceeding. Die„°ed be was merely to rem ove the Lord-Lieutena nt, tha t thought it as great a paradox in politics as in natt - c i the shadow should remain when the substance h y; Pf parted—that the viceroy should flourish when liament had faded, and so far from its being a P„ r " o of,°A" remaining nationality, it was, in his opinion, a r s eee' s national serfdom, and he knew of no office thar / ".01 0 ' so much to demoralise Ireland and to weaken Bek: • s eal that of Lord-Lieutenant. He believed that time of the first Lord-Lieutenant, in 1633, ID l e tir lr : e been done to conciliate the affections of sr, people. The genius of Stephenson had dOrtaer to unite the two countries than all the Lor'', o - eel name that had been sent to Ireland in the last Or • o turies. The Honourable Member for Meath to t he that the office was a national institution, was deer allprejudices of the Irish people, and was conoe e/- age I• r a s acquired i acp e kqp v eueo tendency,dii rnt het t dee h dp e i n r eoa e rnvli never edrored ltaoah less s w n a a s ti a o n na i l j. the most glorious points of their history, '0 ns i t n itu i t t i g en ob l i e e s c s ts. lrS :i l tli ii Ireland, n 7 ai 2 sr , iedr w ah h be e l on would d fi r orassftkhLatothredm-D Hen ryef, . 0 11 031 5 1. d $ 11 4.01 :1 time to the present, how many Irishmen had P (10 office of Lord-Lieutenant ? From 1711 to 1 " - aser . one Irishman, James Duke of Ormond—(Hear'ail bed From 1800 to the present time only two Irisb e le les• been appointed. The same might be said of the' t aris s i Chancellors—and the same of their Chief 6'eer e " ; d e° 31 He for one saw nothing in the history or the C O , yelSS es Lord Strafford connected with the nationality o `. a - I f f i The Hots. Member for Meath had urged ths,C 7, 1 1 ',"; a compact between the people of Ireland and P e ., a r s Why the people did not then exist. What Ti; character given of the Lord-Deputy Mouh t j e fe . fsa l , o l° d the people were " brayed in a mortar," b y s worw and pestilence, under the rule of the Lord-D, submitted themselves to the Government wi‘ ll o , fi b "; strations of joy and gratitude. They all h e a v'ais Lord Strafford had done for Ireland, although claration was that the benefit of the Crow ° „, thsks Wo - principal and only aim. Dean Swift had gi,"io, / i3O the character of one of the Lords-Lieutena o o o, days of Queen Anne—he meant Lord OW .- °B- ei was said to have ruined one country, and thea t tesr s d a to ruin another. The father of the Hon. sa"asfettl - s d Gentleman opposite had himself described the eo of Buckingham, who made his entry into pub in a triumphal car, drawn by public creduliti: lacious hopes and loud-mouthed professions"-oetoo4 with two faces —one side turned to the TreasurY' ova, other to the people—a double-tongued Minister, e r r 17s i , contradictory lab rage. That was in the Ye e i j e r d ss o . , Again, he would take the description of a 0 ) 0 ,13$ P ° 0 1 tater in 1805—a friend, he believed, of the sb'svairi t a,• Gentleman the Member for Dublin. At a, re n e e - Kil the Linen Hall Ward he denounced the Castle 00'0 as a sink of corruption and a hot-bed of iniquity) O l e o it was removed from Ireland, Orangemen 513 ' 01°, I Catholics, Whigs and T or i es , wou ld see the follfd o f ways, and unite in promoting the common g e , Ott , country, Now, although the Hon. Member a had spoken of the nationality of the office of 1 1",ettO ae d tenant, he begged to say that Lord Townsheal reO l ' s e only Lord-Lieutenant out of twenty who b il : t o lob there in the course of two centuries, and he 'swig 1 110 debt of 220,0001. to the Irish people. Dea n a - vee t o marked that, so far from their having a Itir l bi ° ono! v o i f ceroys that were sent to them were absent e ", s ° " 0 0 their time. He hoped, after these sta . terae i oi the twaddle of the Lord-Lieutenancy beingl,:clev e 0 institution would no longer take place, and nar tu' ll 'raec e ste the clap-traps submitted to that House. "„ -e epl e ' Lord-Lieutenant attempted to conciliate the I r e ,ssff i ' eo was accused of neglecting the interests of the ' 1 : mo t hs was on these grounds that Sir John Perrot W as us e d in 1795. Lord Fitzwilliam was recalled s'or s el roe wanted to emancipate the Roman Catholics. hi t he Lord Normanby denounced? He was ostrac ° ,; a ois e e iel Protestant nobility because he presumed to re a e- reoe' r e existence of the Roman Catholic people. In w gi n - 0 01 1 9 1 0. the conduct of the sovereign was never Poo. - ooi 0 0 (erred to, and his acts were considered as t be i r e e lsl i r a ti' ministers, who were held responsible • but l° pied to Lord-Lieutenant was the tenant of a gildreeds ea P who was pelted by all parties, and if he st ar ICol , be impartial he was d enounce d as a trs i .."•s oti teept Take the case of a Tory 1 - 0314- 1# efr il His. arrival was hailed with rejoicing be ell of party, and the Orange flag was hoisted on Lbees mo . steeples; all the tradespeople were chang e " he tr al o . ed' in Ireland it should be observed that t- the s i people were not selected with reference to ir o ° bed ness of their wares, but for the tendency of t he Abel gl ee they might be always sure that the tee: 3 1 , 0 0 1 7 , 70: " Tradesman to his Excellency" over his elo ° 'e ss ed"'" o o l / a vote in a particular way. When a Whig ri - d - if tenant went over there was a total chanue;t e eeter gave a place to a Roman Catholic assistouq - o a ' - as de e " OS was immediately a howl that the Church vol e to otle' t or —(A laugh.) But if he went further, and e/ t " e git ° f el nu lar 0, usual civilities of the Castle to a great P ° u p ► of the day, he was anathematised in th°,e,. ll ) eee le• r scandalised in the boudoirs.—(Great laugu" - t ito P - re st he himself had heard Lord Normanby liken e d t he g r i d chadnezzar from the pulpit, because he aal‘„ e AO man of the day—Mr. O'Connell—to o ' s l , Ole; the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Cor en thee, isv e return, not to his free-trade principles, but 10 0 " 0 pularity of his opponent, Mr. MacarthY, : vi a tati ° ,,ett election because he was open to the grave If ie ar, l )-pre having dined with the Lord-Lieutenant.---(ed in ale and laughter.) Why, no man who bad not It/ r ayet e t a; lin could be aware of the manner in which t e l lsestig il et • of the Lord-Lieutenant was scrutinised sous-disletesDe He was in as bad a case as the unpopular candidate j e oribo s et Westminster election. There was the case e oe 00 t or! to. l ie, Grey, than whom there was not isioe e ~0 0 or charitable man. He sent some prov y ble poor of the different charitable institutions l' atte 010 , and it was said in the papers that all be of beef and he was called " the shin-of bee., no t „ o ld tenant."—(Great laughter.) Why. they dl u xtr ocy c leg son ctr:ord'i)oie. spare the ladies, and he held in his hand an ;t.retre the hers th ° ball ut the Castle. The Hon. Gentleman t sa et pi e the Dublin Evening Mail in reference to the r ow 0 extract, which denounced the conduct pursw p ot t o festivities ) and observed that if they were In wa l l pc they might expect to see the announc!ol'ierovisiefted Chamberlain's Office "stretchers will b ° ove" the accommodation of the ladies."—(He ar s en' Wit pet Fie read that, not for the purpose of sharTaeloodows insinuations of the hireling writer, but h ti e t i o co of. show the lengths faction would go tatlaba" ybei and the little respect it had for an Oee v