The Sun. — London, England, 1851-04-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY be responsible was fearful if we took that course we should r able his authority might be upon other points , he was at (I ' l 7iponsibl e for an immense deal of blordshed.— ! least welle,qualified to speak as to the characteristics of vaert..) We should be responsible for a dreadful civil I the Kafir race. and the abominable practices to which „ e , for a war of races would certainly take place in they were addicted. They ate one another; they be ; colonies, and we should be responsible for looking on lieved in witchcraft, and aced on that belief; toepl4arently as governors and protectors, while in fact, they openly practised perjury, arson, and 1 _ 1-aere contented spectators of a scene of murder and rape. Further, it appeared teat no progress / Z ia e revolting to the human mind.—(Hear, hear.) had cr could be male with such men in the work of civi- It l ev issing this alternative, then, there came the other lization—neither by means of missionaries nor of mill clere.dion, which he thought might very fairly be consi- tary. Long as our missionaries had been there no con ed with respect to it. They might consider the plan siderable progress was made in spreading the influence Reichee. was adopted by Lord Glenelg and the Govern- of religion among them; with such savages, then, there rather of Lord Melbourne, viz., that of endeavouring was no hope of improvameet. When the Noble Lord .. `t ,, ,1 1 rto restrict than extend the frontier of the colony, spoke of extending our frontier, ho (Mr. V. Smith) ' l°l to make treaties with the native tribes, in the hope could not help feeling that, as we had a governor at that they would observe those treaties. This plan seemed the Cape, there would be a constant attempt e, have been fairly tried. Those who had tried it had to extend the frontier, for governors were driven to se e_r e Y wish that they might succeed; but hitherto their that policy by all possible motives. In extending the : f a .. se had not been commensurate with the benevolence frontier they felt that, generally specking, they were (n t_tie project or their desire to carry it into effect.— quite safe so long as they bad unbounded military re ,d:ar.) Then there cause lastly the plan which had been sources; and in most cases they might be said to possess sir Opted on the advice of Sir B. D'Urban, Sir P. Maitland such resources, fo r the moment news reached this eoun i . Potti nger , an d Si r H. Smith, namely, that of ex- try of a British subject having been killed , th e House tending the frontier to the borders of a river where mili- of Commons—and very properly s o—was p re p ared to t art posts could be established to cheek the incursions incur any expense that might be necessary for avenging ee ule savaere tribes that sought to infest the colony, the outrage. Bu t, on the whole, he doubted whether Bt,`".of endeav our i n g by the best system that could be this colony was entitled to al l t he p rotection and encou tto keep them in obedience—having, at the same ragement which it seem e d to claim ; and he did not a g ree ra a e scattered through the colony a series of forts with the Hon. Member for Staffordshire, in the opinion a s Places of security. In his (Lord John Russeli's) opi - which h e ex p ressed with re g ard to the convict question b u, that was certainly the system which was after all the at the Cape; in the contrary, he thought that the inha tone. consistent with security on the one hand and hui• hitants of the Cape ought to have been willing to take aet, "itY on the other.—(Hear, hear.) In point of secu- from us our reformed convicts. He would not press that e ty, it se eme d t o hi m t o p r omi se better than the plan point any further , but mer el y content himself in this '' restricting the frontier, and in Point of humanity ho place with adding, that he thought the Cape , at lea st, rarn2idered it better than leaving the native tribes to d e - ought to support its own military. As to the more li tiie te e Te by the sword which was the strongest.—(Hear, mited question now before the House, he should o nl y a r.) In point, therefore, both of security and hu- say, in conclusion, that it formed part of the grea t inanity, this was the plan which he should be inclined to question which the Hon. Baronet the Member for °op which in But, at the same time, as this was the plan Southwark had already bro u g ht before the House, and In 1835, 1845, and now in 1851, had caused the that it must always be considered with reference to gre at • • be military movements, and all the expense attendant the whole of our colonial system. For the reasons, li P o en those movements, it was quite right that the then, that he had stated, he should divide against both tb . l l :ge of Commons should delegate to a Committee the propositions. ,„°. of obtaining all the information they could on the Mr. F. SCOTT said it had been truly stated that this e ` a aieet, and of giving their opinion whether this was the question presented great difficulties, but, after the best '' 4 which Government ought to pursue. He thought consideration which he could give to the subject, he felt thatplan if the Committee should approve of the that he ought to support the proposition of the Noble t hat hitherto adopted—always supposing, of course, Lord at the head of the Government, as, at all events, 13' t the first thing to be done was to give Sir better than the appointment of a commissioner. It ap tatTTY Smith the reinforcements he required, in order peered to him that the reasons given by the Right Hon. i i a erl ,able him to meet the immediate danger—(Hear, Gentleman opposite against the appointment of a COM.' f r e e ,,,, r a — there were persons in this country perfectly able, missioner were quite conclusive; to appoint a commis oe—, their intimate knowledge of the colony, to be of sioner would be at once to supersede the Governor. In am !" assistance with respect to making treaties with the his opinion the Kafirs were such irreclaimable savages 14 tribes, and arranging the mode in which they that they should be at once made aware that England, shouldlotions live in future with each other, and what their r e . in defiance of' them, was determined to retain its ° iis ought to be with respect both to the colony and colony at the Cape, however great might be the cost of e; Great. Britain. If the House should appoint a Corn- doing so. He should still be favourable to the appoint fete; the views of the Government would, of course, be ment cf a committee, for there had been so many 4 r. Y stated to the numbers of that Committee; the quese changes in the Colonial-office that investigation ate] submitted to them would be considered dispassion- was desirable. There had been three propositions ab llY, as a great question which concerned the empire, made upon this subject; one was that of the Hon all not as a question which concerned either the person Member for Staffordshire; another that of the Noble o 0 Was at p r e se nt Governor of the colony, or the per - Lord ; and a t hird th at of the Member for Southwark; pa.who at present held the seals of the Co l o nial De- but the three p ro p ositions could really be resolved into inept.—(Hear ta i" hear.) He was quite sure the Corn- two, namely, who was to pay for the war, and how the tee would spend their time far better in considering w ar had been cau sed ? The war had been to a great ~., ;nether th e policy which had hitherto been adopted was extent ca u sed b y our home p olic y ; and it therefore was se s ound one or not, and, if not, in suggesting whether the duty of Parliament to investigate those causes, so as te ll other could be adopted which was likely to be at - to prevent a repet i t ion of such untoward events. In the ts i ded with more benefit than in endeavouring to aster- course of the debate respecting Ceylon it had been said lion whether Sir H. Smith was wrong in this proclama- that the vote then proposed amounted to a direct censure r ight or in that interview, or whether Lord Grey did on the Government, and he confessed it appeared to him v i gat in receiving with approbation the information that that the motion of the Noble Lord was little less; with th" RDA to him. With this view, therefore, he moved that view, he should support the motion, and he thanked t i e tt al laendment of which he had given notice. The C o m- the Noble Lord for so candidly bringing it forward. The Pia which might come to the opinion that instead of the conduct of the Government of Ceylon might be considered sending assistance the Government proposed, and instead o f harsh and severe, but every one must admit that the ad s -- ee '' n g assistance to Sir H. Smith, as First Commissioner, ministration of the Government of South Africa must the commission should be sent to the colony, be regarded as having been in all respects conciliatory. I, e 'le Ron. Gentleman (Mr. Adderley) proposed; but The next object which he Ghoul() notice was the tenure o; thought it would be premature to decide that in the of land in the colony. The Kuflrs had a land question, sei: g a t i instance. He thought it would be better that the like caner native tribes, in a system of quit-rents which ' e nlaterials for judging of the matter should be fairly was established, and in limits to their holdings of land. g Placed before the Committee before adopting that sug- It was a mistake to suppose that the pay ment of a itit esno n. The Noble Lord concluded by moving, as an sum of money was considered by them as an equivalent Committee to Mr. Adderley's motion, " That a Select for the loss of the pomp, license, and authority which tur een be appointed to inquire into the relations be- ' they had been accustomed to hold. Another cause of dis. !ri this country and the Kafir tribes on our South pute was the boundary question. The Kafirs did not .African frontier." believe in the permanence of the present system, and tiZ T . V. SMITH hoped he should escape one impute- that gave them such audacity in venturing into our limits. M e - which the Noble Lord had cast upon the Hon. He could not believe that Sir H. Smith, when the out par-al, uer for Staffordshire, viz., that of treating this as a break occurred, was well informed upon the state of feel vie L e Y question, because he was undeniably impartial in iog among the natives. Up to the last moment he ap (ill eting to both the motion and the amendment.— peared to believe that there was no serious cause for iee e ,ar, hear.) He obected to a commissioner being apprehending a breach of peace and tranquillity. He mi lt' out, as proposed by the Hon. Member for Stafford- held in his hand a letter from an officer at the Cape, , e 2re, because he could not help thinking that while there dated January 14, 1851, in which the writer said that co mmissioner a governor i n th e co lony the appearance of a Sir H. Smith had , for se veral weeks, been warned of there would cripple his authority, and what was g oin g on, but to no effect. On the 25th of sitlweaken at once his power over the settlers and his in- December 5,000 Kafirs fell upon the patrol set by Sir oe e nce with the natives.—(Hear, hear.) He was equally H. Smith , a nd attacked them wholly unprepared. Col. h e to th e amendment of the Noble Lord, because Mackinnon chose to march his men with pieces not ~,6 could not conceive what course the Committee could loaded, and the conse q uence was they had to fight their Pu rsue that had not already been pursued by the Execu - wa y out of the defile at considerable loss. He (Mr. 've.---(Hear.) The Noble Lord said that they ought to Scott) thought that to sacrifice the lives of officers and Put aside the opinions of this or that Secretary of the men by not having their muskets loaded evinced, on the Colonies, and consider the questi o n with reference to the p art of Colonel Mackinnon, an unwarrantable laxity, e hes, en e t of the empire. But whom could the Committee and as g reat a disre g ard of the interests of his men as first call before them but those very persons whose opi- was possible. Another letter from the Cape stated that !lions they were told to set aside?—(Hear, hear.) And the burghers were very slow in coming forward, and if when the Noble Lord said that there were various gen- they did not take the field it was hard to say what the tleraen in this country who wore capable of giving in- result would be. At present it s eem ed es if the war to fo rmation to the Committee, he (Mr. V. Smith) looked be waged was very like a war of extermination. It was aghast, for although he knew one or two gentlemen who clear that our colonial policy had already in volved the could give information if they liked, yet it was by no country in great expense, and that it was likely to lead means a grateful task for any one to come forward and us into furt her ex p ense, unless a chan g e of s y stem was , _°Y that thi s su p er i or o ffi ce r had failed, or that subordi- adopted. late had misconducted himself, and, as there were no Mr. MACKINNON said it was very convenient to means of compelling them to come forward and give in- Hon. Gentlemen opposite to make the actions of Sir H. fo rmation, he saw no good that would be derived from Smi h and other officers at the Cape of Good Hope a a n t t t empting it.—(Hear, hear.) He was confirmed in this cloak for their attacks upon the Colonial-office. It was t -13 ,' Iai° n by what took place last year in the Committee no new thing in the history of civilization that the savage d'" t h e army and ordnance estimates. Then again be tribes did not amalgamate with the colonists. On the h ad if 15 gentlemen could be got in that House who contrary, they by degrees receded until they disappeared sufficiently studied the maps of the Cape to be able from the bounds of humanity. This was the case in the 1 0 e g a ive an opinion as to where the frontier line should West Indies and in the United States. In the case of rtt oerawn. 7 (Hear.) It was almost impossible to sepa. the latter country, there was the certainty that in a few Le the discussion of the present question from the ge- years the North A merican tribes would he annihilated. ir al question brought forward the other night by the Civilization was extending itself at the Cape , a nd con 140U. Member for Southwark; and , in his o p inion, the y stant conflicts between civilization and barbarism there ought not to b e separated.—(Hear.) The truth was , that t ore , b e e i me inevitable. Our governors had extended ti e Cape was a sample colony.—(Hear.) Let them just their t e r ritor y as far as the y could, so as to make a 1 o e l k at it for a moment. If it was true, as the Noble neutral ground between the colonists and the natives. bi r d seemed to admit, that the policy which had been The colonists were increasing and extending their terri `4Btled sinc e 1806 w as erroneous—or at all events un . t ory , and it was im p ossible to p revent conflicts between Suc cessful—it surely followed that some great reversal the advancing colonists and the retreating tribes. Sir t at i that p o li cy s h ou ld t a k e place; and this was the opi- H. Smith, under such circumst ances, bad shown great (3 'i of one of the best and wisest of the Governors of the tact and prudence in settling the questions at issue be tlpe, Sir H. Pottinger, who in one of hi s dis p atches tween the colonists and the natives. It was out of his slidhe would be too glad if it were in his power to re - po wer to p revent the last outbreak. It was not possible izotet the li m i ts o f the frontier.—(Hear, hear.) The for the House to p ass a j udgment upon the conduct of Isle L or d sa id t h at we mus t protect the settlers who the Governo r unless the y had the whole of his policy ha d gone out to the Cape under our enco ura g ement. To before them. A Select Committee of impartial Members a _certain e x t en t this was true; but how far was this to would be more likel y to form a fair j udgment than any t carried?—(Hear, hear.) Were we always to continue other tribunal. Being satisfied that Sir H. S mith had a fford them military p ro t ec tion, and they to afford shown himself to be a man of honour and humanity, as the mselves ee 'raselves none? Because ho coule prove that in the well as of superior powers of mind, he should support e y ii ? ! of the Cape the colonists had all along been un- the amendment of the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell). li ,„."ng to protect themselves, and had always depended Mr. GLADSTONE said the Hon. Member for Lytn azij?ll us for military protection, and always would do so ington had propounded, by way of solving the practical z l ong as we gave it to them.—(Hear.) The Noble question before the House as regarded the Cape of Good i e Til said that the colonists had accumulated 4,000,0001. Hope, a philosophical theory which might be very in theust:was his answer to that? He would answer in genious and reasonable—that they were to regard the C. words of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Co- war that hail occurred as one of the incidents of the con thnle..!! who, by the way, differed from the Noble Lord tact of civilization and barbarism. That might be very First First Minister of the Crown. The Noble Lord the true; but the question then for them to consider would t Minister of the Crown denounced every proposal' be, whether those incidents were capable of being iin tZT retrenchment, and the withdrawal of the troops from proved by prudent conduct on their part. It was enough 4O colonies as the dismemberment of the empire. Lord for him if they took practical measures on this question; r eY, on the contrary, was recommendjng the with- at the same time he agreed with those who had spoken '' ra, .. w al of our forces in all quarters of the world. that the more they separated this question from the in -Lord J. RUSSELL—I referred to that in my culpation of individuals the better, because the matter ilc : Nr e elie--(Elear, hear.) was so difficult, and the blame, he believed, must be di tee—tre V. SMITH, in continuation, said that the Secre- vided among so many, and the House itself must come in aY for the Colonies wrote to the Australians that they for its full share, that it would be unprofitable to con b tist defend themselves. The Governor of Australia cider how that blame should be shared. As to himself, eei tti d , " Surely you will not withdraw your forces from a he should be content if they could establish against the Colony where there is so much property to defend." Cape any claim for bearing part of the expenses of this 1) rd Grey replied, nlf you have so large an amount of war. If the Government could effect that object they would (4Vrty spend some of it in defending the rest." He deserve well of the country, but what he was most anxious V. Smith) applied the same argum ent to the Ca p e. about was that they should remember that the future was Bear hear.) (The Right Hon. Gentlema n here in some de g ree in their power, and that they should not q u otedr some extracts from the dispatches of Sir H. Pot- commit themselves as to the future by any act of t la l l 'ger, to show the indisposition of the colonists to make indiscretion, or b y any omission it was their duty to e Y sacrifice to defend themselves, and the readiness fulfil. He was indeed very much in the same predica with wh i c h th e y profited by the extravagant manner in ment as the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Nor- I° the late war was conducted.) The causes of these thampton. He did not a g ree with one p ro p osal or the car wars and the causes of their long continuance bad other. As to the appointment of a commissioner, he be en noticed; but of this the House might rest perfectly t h o u g ht the Ri g ht Hon. Gentleman had stated all that as sured, that so long as the wars were expensive, so long could be said; but as to the appointment of a Committee, u oold th ey prove profitable to certain persons at the he thought that all the objections to a Parliamentary a pe, and so long would means of promoting and e x- C ommittee for the examination of a colonial question had the them be fou nd. He saw some g entlemen in es p ecial force in this instance. The effect of such a ~e Hou se w ho had served on the Army Estimates Commit tee would be to hang u p the question, and stop t ) narnitt ee , an d he appealed to them to say, had they the discu ssion of it p robabl y for two sessions of Parlia- Illat abund an t ev idence laid before that Committee to ment.—(Hear, hear.) The Committee must necessarily rove th at no thi n g was more difficult than to control be composed of gentlemen having ma n y other avocatione a commissariat, or to p revent Peo p le enco urag in g The y would examine such witnesses as would be ready if war w hi c h was profitable to th emselves ? Now, to their hand; t he y would find it necessary to send for i such e x p enses —of which this country had striking witnesses from the Cape to give them further informa ilatances_were ne cessary to a war, how ca reful should Lion; those witnesses would not arrive until next session; n gland be in entering upon such wars, especiall y when then there would be the old story over again, and the i, w as remembered that so lo n g as the expenses went House would be in great good fortune if they obtained b " l' the w ar wou ld b e continued! If they were to have the report in the session of 1852, or even of 1853. But it either a committee or a commission, he should like to was objectionable at all times to stop for a long time the e , tt ve them inquire late war, discussion of public questions—(Hear) — and in regard into the expenses of the aka espe c i a ll y t o inquire into the charges of peculation to a question of this kind it was objectionable in a ten ,seett,against the British army. If such a commission fold degree. At that moment the House and the country p n „, - 'e issued as th e Hon. Member fur Staffordshire pro- were smarting under the sense that there was something f e --(1, he did not see how it could be rendered efficient wrong in the policy that led to these continued and sue t: all 1 necessary purposes. A commission, for example, ces 'ive wars, and so long as they suffered from that Frie nd not audit a ccounts. He hoped that when his Hon. smart, and felt that the mischief was pressing and urgent, dl tiend the Under-Secretary for the Colonies rose to ad- there was some hope of the attention of the House being ta e ss the House on this subject ho would apply himself profitably directed to the subject.—(llear, hear.) But th e this Part of the question, and tell the House why let this war pass away and the items for it appear no the expenses of the war had never been properly inves- longer in the estimates, and they would be met on all practical reformation was attempted ®ea t The Noble Lord at the head of the Govern- occasions when any were about to dismember the ti re - is t spoke of the commando system in terms of disap- with declarations that they teCation; b u t, a f ter a ll th e results of the late war, Sir empire, and the spirit of patriotism and freedom would be Smith found it necessary to call out the whole of the be again inv the discussion would be a waste of ttme.—(Hear, hear.) But a Committee was a bad in -174P1e of the colony, in fact, to order a levy en masse ; a tit i l he would ask, was not that creating, by British strument for the examination of this question.—(Hear, impressed with the conviction, bi and °r itY, a system almost identical with the corn- hear.) He had long been bi W e r —° Plan of operations? But such proceedings from his acq uaintance wi e t ms c e o lv lonial affairs, that Govern e leai not new; they had been repeated again and ment in the colonies themselves was the only Govern tl.;a- la ; they aff or ded the most irresistible proofs that ment that could be satistactor . y, and sound, and health it would only al ter a Y a stena of our Government in that colony must be ful, when the colonists were in a legitimate and normal of t tar ed; and he made this assertion under the influence position as freemen of our Ow'? care. But if th e y were cod op i n i on that England never could have any to have a Government in t r hiconntry, let it be the cod he the Kafirs. If it we're thought desirable— Queen's Government.—(Hear, a el_hear.) in me" was f ar f rom sa yi n g so—bot if it wa s f o r a me- crease the mischief to leave ta,. Government with that he at ,,: o tb, , ought of, that we ought to exterminate that race, House. The Secretary of State was a responsible officer la would s n,, A._ ore dim, ee Lust the undertaking might prove much —he had means of information which the House had. cip at , cult than those who contemplated it at all anti - not, Gad he was always acting under a sense of respell- W e e u; but one - never thing was certain, as he thought—that P aelvantages for govern -1 sibility. Then e oild not find fitteen gentlemen in that pe ace . could agree with the Kafirs, or live on terms of , house who would have the cam . to , er I v; ith them. In suport of this assertion he might 1 ing as the Secretary of , if he looked at the fished,°n• Metrib to work ritten or at least pub.' I conduct of committees on colonial que ,_ . ers a W I Awns he could not State , ar,d "I 1837 by Mr. Boyce; and, however question- I say h 9 WAS satisfied with the result, They had heard something about Ceylon, but he did not think the cha racter of that Rouse had been elevated by the single in stance of the Ceylon Committee.—(Hear, hear.) The history of the Cape question afforded anuti,er instance. The Noble Lord had recounted instances of the failure of their policy. The strongest measures ever adopted by the executive Government of this country as to the Cape were in the time of Lord Glenelg, in consequence of the report of a Committee of that House. A Committee was appointed to examine our relations with the Ketirs in 1835. It sat during 1836. On that Committee he (Mr. Gladstone) sat with Sir F. Buxton, who he believed was tee chairman, and he never saw a Member of Par liament discharge his duty with greater zeal or energy, or with a more complete command of the subject; and yet what was the result? A total change of policy was recommended. It had proved a failure, and the wars since that period had been more ruinous and bloody than before.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But he had a greater objection still to a Committee. It was a step in the wrong sense and in the wrong direction. It was impossible to devise in this country any satisfac tory system of adjusting the relations with the Kafir tribes.—(Hear, hear.) It must be done by men on the spot. He did not say it could be done in a moment. The consequences of the unfortunate steps taken in former times were not so easily retrieved. They must endure much before they could work things round for the future. But lot them not take a step in the wrong direction. This was clear—there could be no new do mestic authority in England to give a sanction to the management of the affairs of the frontier. He objected to the management being in Downing-street; but he ob jected still more to its being vested in a Committee of that House. If they felt now their responsibility as to the expense of the war which had arisen when the Se cretary of State had managed the relations of the colony, would they not be tenfold more responsible if they ap pointed a Committee to determine on those relations and the system of managing them, and war were to break out while that system was in operation?—(Hear.) Those were his objections to the appointment of a Committee; but, as he had said, he was not prepared to propose any remedy of a domestic character.—(Hear, hear.) He was persuaded that one great object of their policy ought to be, as cautiously as they would, but as speedily as they could, to carry on the management of this whole matter by the colonists themselves.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton that that was a principle of the utmost importance, and they could not separate it altogether from the consideration of any particular case. The main principle on which he voted against the appoint ment of a Committee was the anxiety he felt to avoid any system that could give a fresh Parliamentary sanction to the mischievous and unsound system of the management of the local affairs of a colony from home.—(Hear.) These wars with barbarians on the frontier were local affairs; and if they asked him why he was so anxious to throw on the colony the burden or managing these wars, he begged they would not suppose it was entirely, or even mainly, on account of great public economy, which he believed, however, would result from that policy. He was not ashamed to say that, saving public honour, no duty was more incumbent on that House than the maintenance of public economy.—(Hear, hear.) It was not for them, as the representatives of the people, and whose special duty it was to tax the people, and to see that they were not taxed more than the exigencies of the empire called for, to be ashamed to propound the principles of economy—(Hear, hear) —but he felt that there was a much higher principle in this matter. Ii was not only for economy they ought to give to these people the management of their own affairs, and leave them to arrange their relations with the aboriginal tribes in the colony, but to get back to the old system of colo nial policy—that system under which they ruled the old American colonies. The colonists there did not ask them to maintain their wars with the Indian tribes. The real question was not one of economy. It was this, how the plague and scourge of war could be best kept down? He was convinced that could not be done unless the whole community to be exposed to the war was responsible for the expense. The burdens of war, were they an unmiti gated evil? No. Whey were a providential correction, imposed on mankind to check their disposition to quarrels and warfare. What would this country be it we had some unlimited fund belonging to other people, and not to us, upon which we might draw at pleasure to pay the ex penses of wars in which we might be engaged? He trusted that even in such a case our moral sense would restrain us; but it required to be backed up by other considerations, and the monstrous expense of war was a providential check to restrain the fury of men, and to render them less disposed to war. How was this war at the Cape carried on ? He might say by the most scan dalous extravagance; he was afraid he might go further, and say by the most scandalous corruption—(Hear)—for he was afraid there was public authority for saying that peculation and corruption had disgraced this war. Did they think it cost the Americans in their wars with the Indians 1,500,0001. at a time? Were those wars dis graced by corruption and peculation? No! because the responsibility was placed on those most interested in them. The only parties who could settle or adjust these mat ters were those who were directly interested in them. Those were the persons on whom the burden ought to lie. As for the proposition of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark, he had a difficulty in agreeing to any abstract proposition asserting what they ought to do us to colonial government, but when they had a prac tical question before them, if they did not assert their principle in a theorectic form, let them act on the right principle according to the principles that had arisen. They had a case of that kind then before them. The ques tion was, whether or not they were really to endeavour to fix on the colonists the responsibility of governing the colony. He knew of only one objection to that system. and it was this :—Appeals might be made to their hu manity, and it might be said, " You are not going to expose these colonists to the fury of barbarous tribes." He did not know how that matter really stood, nor did he believe that any information he could get in that House would tell him whether it was true that these tion; there had been something mentioned about putting :he foot upon the nook of a chief; what would lave been said has; Sandilli proposed to put his foot upon the nook of the Governor ? The House had heard, too, about a brass-headed stick, under circumstances pre senting a very near approximation to a curtain hat by which one Gessler, once upon is time involved himself and his principals in a considerable difficulty, He (Col. Thompson) had, both in Africa and Asia, seen evidence that to treat semi-barbarians with justice was the sure key to their attachment and good faith.—(Hear, hear.) The question was, who hed applied the match to this train? Gunpowder, everybody knew, was explosive, and so were the Kafirs.—(Hear, and laughter,) He wanted to know who it was that had fired the train, and so begun the mischief? It would be quite sufficient for the House to say that in case of need it would pro tect our fellow-subjects in that part of the world from being overwhelmed; but as to any proposition that we would conquer all that portion of the African continent, and thrust beck and back the irreclaimable savages whom injured, let ourselves had wantonly insulted and let the House take heed how it sanctioned any such thing, for be sure the retribution of Providence that ever, throughout the world's history, had, sooner or later, punished injustice, would, sooner or later , pun ish that injustice also.—(Hear, hear.) Sir E. N. BUXTON was rejoiced to hear this asser tion of the right of the aborigines of Africa. There was ample ground for considering that very great en croachments had been made on the lands of the natives, especially on those of the Kafirs, who, a fierce, warlike people, had done that which it might have been expected they would do in resistance of the aggression. We had already been encroaching and encroaching, in Southern Africa, until our empire there exceeded in extent the extent of Great Britain. He denied that the policy of Lord Gle nelg had totally failed; on the contrary, it was the de parture from the Noble Lord's policy which had occa sioned all this mischief. Lord Glenelg's policy, as laid down for the guidance of Sir Benjamin D'Urban, was— " a systematic and persevering adherence to justice, con ciliation, forbearance, and the honest arts by conciliation may be advanced, and Christianity diffused among the people." Had that policy been adhered to the result would have been totally different from those now un happily before the House. He was of opinion that it might be dangerous to place the affairs of the colony wholly in the hands of the colonists. The colonists, no doubt, might be able to defend themselves, but he was afraid it would be by means wholly dis tasteful to the Christian feelings of this country, by bloodshed, devastation, and the final extermination of the native tribes. The real cause of these hostilities was described in the words of Lord Glenelg, with relation to the conflicts of the colonists with the natives in Australia —" The real causes of these hostilities are to be found in a course of petty encroachments and acts of injustice committed by the new settlers, at first submitted to by the natives, and not sufficiently checked in the outset by the leaders of the colonists."—(Hear, hear.) The only right course open to the Government was a return to the policy of Lord Glenelg —(skar.) Mr. ROEBUCK said that much had been said about justice and humanity, and the necessity of adhering, as between our colonists and the savage tribes by whom they were surrounded, to the same principles which re gulated the relations between nations of equal civiliza tion, the Honourable Gentleman, in common with every body else, blinding himself to the leading fact that is all these cases we, of necessity, began with that which in the abstract, and upon general principles, was gross injustice. What had we done in Kafraria? Why, we had begun with taking away people's land from them, and then Honourable Gentlemen got up in the House and said, Oh, you must follow out the principles of justice in this case." The real question was, injustice having been done, whether there was no thing to justify the injustice? He, for one, affirmed that there was. Take America, discovered in its islands by Columbus, in its continent by Cabot; take it at the time it was so discovered, and ask yourselves what was the amount of human happiness which that vast continent then contained?—(Hear, hear.) Compare it, as it then was, not with what it is now, but with what it is in its splendid expectations—weigh its past mischiefs, great, enormous, overwhelmning as they were—terrible as the conquests of Cortez, direful as those of Pizarro, cruel as those of the Puritans of Massachusetts, miserable as the devastations of Virginia;—compare all this with that ex hibition which its wide-spread plains now present—the developments of modern science, the myriads of popula tion, the progress of human happiness and well being; —weigh these two even together, though sorrowing, you could not but accept the one for the sake of the other. Why should he blind himself to the consequences? Did not the history of the colonies tell him that the mo ment the white man, and more especially the Anglo- Saxon, placed his foot by the side of the brown native, wherever he might be found, whether in North America, in Soath Australia, in New Zea land, or in South Africa, the inferior man vanished before him? and the only question was between the long agony of pretended justice and the immediate expulsion of the aborigines. Let there not, then, be any false modesty or false philanthropy about this question.—(A laugh.) We were going to expel the natives for the ex press purpose, and it was a false, hypocritical pretence, to say that we were going to do anything else. Let the House take the case of any one of our colonies—begin ning with Massachusetts, for example. That was a very religious colony. They were a pure people, who went out to cultivate the vineyard of the Lord according to their own peculiar views. What did they do? Why, one morning they rose up, and they said they were about to smite the heathen hip and thigh, and to draw the sword of the Lord and of Gideon. And they did draw the sword, and did smite them hip and thigh, and alto gether exterminated the natives. That was what they did, and they did it in the name of the Lord! Take Massachusetts now, and what was it as compared with the state in which the colonists found it? As he said at first, he accepted the difference. He mourned over the intervening circumstances ; but he did sa y that it was im possible to avoid the consequenc es . H e wa nted to apply this practically. We had no business in Kafraria, except upon the understanding that we were about to plant there a people of higher intelligence. It was impossible to bring the degraded heathen up to that state of civilization at which the white man had arrived. The native would vanish before the face of the white man. The mode in which we had commenced our colonization proved that we believed such to be the case. We found in Kafraria a body of men who li ve d by h unt i ng — whose mo d es of life required a vast expanse of territory. We took that territory, and began by seizing the most fertile spots. What could the natives do? Nature told them what to do—to fight, to oppose cunning to force, artifice to know ledge; and cunning and artifice sank before knowledge and . force. Then came p oo r Si r H arry Sm i t h , an d ta lk e d as if these people had committ e d some dire offence aga i ns t morality when they rose against his dominion; and the Hon. Baronet (Sir E. Buxt on ) asked them to do unto others as they would be done to. But suppose the Honourable Baronet were a Hottentot, or member for Kafraria, would he then a p p l y the , golden rule? Or, suppose the Hottentots came to England, and seized it, and some brown Sir Harry S m i t h were to begin talking about his tender mercies, would the Honaurable Gentle man think that he militated against morality by putting a musket ball through him? Why, he would think that he was doing a patrioti c thing, and that his name would he held up to future ages as a Miltiades, a The mistocles,.a Wallace, or any ' other patriot. But to re turn; having begun with a gross act of injustice, by dispossessing the country, he yet said that if they were enabled to introduce a lar ge b ody of English colonists there ho was quite prepared to go the whole length of the consequences; but it was an utter pretence to t a lk of honesty, in the ordinary sense of the term, of justice, or humanity. They ought not to mix up this matter with the question of the colonization of the Cape of Good Hope, because British Kafraria was in no way connected with the Cape colony. British Kafraria was a large tract of territory taken possession of by the British Government, into which they had sent soldiers, but no colonists. The Kafirs had ri sen , b ecause th e y thought that a gross inju s ti ce h ad been done thorn. They were right for so doing, and we could only put them down by force. Those men had steeled their hearts with the deepest sense of injury. We had de prived them of that which w as d earest to them. The lands over which they had b een use d to roam in quest of the means of subsistence we had taken from them. We had circumscribed their means of living, and could it be wondered at that they should rise against us? We h a d planted in their nation military colonies, and we were about to destroy them as a people. He wished English men to understand that we were about to introduce among a people rather more than usually populous for the extent of territory an English power with the ulterior object of placing there English colonists. English co lonists could not be placed there without the inevitable consequence of annihilating the aborigines. That was what had been done in New Zealand, in Australia, in North America, in all our colonies, and that was what would be done in South Africa, if the present system were continued. Tell the colonists —" We will plant you here; we will protect you from aggression against the great nations of the earth; seaward, you shall be safe; against the aborigines you must pr o t ect your selves." What would be the consequence? A militia w would be at once formed; we should march i n t o th e midst of the country and plant a town; an insurrection would arise; we should put down the Kafirs; punish ment would follow; we should dispossess them of their land, and the poor wretches would be driven back and exterminated. That was what had been done in Massa chusetts, in Virginia, in New 'York. The colonists had put down a gallant and chivalroal. race —a race warlike, and possessed of many high qu alities. We h a d dispos sessedi them, and where now, would ask, was the North American Indian? He lived n history —he was unknown in fact—and scarcely in the whole range east of the Mississippi could be found one .single nation of the aborigines that was not like a vrandermg tribe o f Gi ps i es —all their high chivalry gones.-all their claims as a na tion melted away. They had become the subj ects o f ro mance. In their mostsherished resting-places the axe of the Anglo-Saxon had cut down and crushed the vast forests through which they had been wont to wander, and their hunting-grounds hadbecome the seats of art, of civilization, and of human h a ppiness in a diffe rent form.—(Hear, hear.) This made all the difference, and this, he said again, we must face, if we intended to extend the present system to South Africa, As regarded the proposition of the Noble Lord, he looked upon it as a complete abdication of the power of the Government. He (Mr. Roebuck) could put a meaning upon it, because he could suppose a Government so weak and so inca pable of governing as to be glad of any excuse for get ting rid of a difficulty. A respons ible Colonial Govern ment shrouded itself under the miserable subterfuge of a Select Committee, and in the mean time money was to be spent, war and slaughter were to be perpetrated, and the great numa of England was perhaps to be prostituted. Time was when the Noble Lord would have said, had such a proposition been made to him, " Do you think wo are going to abrogate our functions as a Govern ment ?" But he said to the Noble Lord, if he were wil ling to abrogate the functions of the Colonial-office to a colonists were not able to defend themselves from the barbarians. He himself had a shrewd suspicion that they were; and, if they were not, in case of need this country would be ready to help them; but what we had to do, meantime, was to require them to do all they the mselves csn'd for themselves, and to help them in this by throwing upon them, to the utmost possible extent, the responsibility of managing their own affairs. He protested against the doctrine that the normal system of colonization was what was phrased thepreparing colonies for freedom.—(Hear, hear.) It seemed to be taken for granted by many of our statesmen that the proper mode of proceeding, when you founded colonies, was to deal with them as you deal with children; first putting them into long clothes, then into short clothes, and by and by (after careful consideration) breeching them. You must found colonies in freedom if you mean them to be really free.—(Hear, hear.) By founding colonies in political servitude you displace all the social elements; you teach the colonists to place reliance where they ought not to place it; you create a governing class; you create a sense of dependence upon the mother country for purposes which the colonists themselves ought to fulfil; and, above all, you create a great military ex penditure; and you hold out a direct premium for war, because the more wars there are the greater military expenditure there is—the greater the profit to be made out of it by those concerned.—(Hear, hear.) Let the House beware how it accorded its sanction to any such mischievous, wasteful, and demoralizing principles of colonisation as these—(Hear, hear) —let it, by means of the Executive Government, and the agents of the Exe cutive Government at the Cape, endow the colony, as soon as possible, with entire liberty as to local adminis tration, throw upon it the responsibility of managing its own affairs and its own relations, including those with the Kafir tribes, always with the distinct understanding that the mother country would be ready to interpose her powerful arm in case of actual need. Do this, and there need be no fear of dismemberment of the empire.— (Rear, hear.) As to dismemberment of the empire, let him point out to the House that we had not at this moment any colonies more attached to the mother country than were the whole of the American colonies prior to the outbreak of the revolution, yet there was not one of these colonies but must have felt insulted by so miserable a bribe being held out to it as military ex penditure, or an army to defend it from the savages on its frontiers. Lord MANDEVILLE rose, not so much to answer what the Right Hon. Gentleman said, as because, having been in the colony, he might state what would be of use to the House.—(Hear, hear.) Tho Right Hon. Gen tleman said there would be no use in appointing a Com mittee. There was a Committee now sitting on steam navigation, yet no doubt there were members of the Government who had information on that subject. Be sides, the Committee had the advantage of being at a distance from the scene of action, and, consequently re moved from the party strifes and disputes which would bias the judgment of persons in the place.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to speak as if the colony wished for war. There might have been persons, certain contractors, who, derived a profit from it, wished for it; but the colony itself suffered too much to wish for war.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for South wark stated that the wars were caused by our encroach ments. The reverse was the case—the war was caused by Kafir depredations. The war of 1846 was caused by the murder of Do Lange, whose cattle had been stolen after the Fingoe who watched them had been killed. The Boer was shot when he attempted to overtake the depredators, and the war, he believed, was caused by the dissensions consequent on the re fusal of the Kafirs to give up the offenders. The Hon. Baronet had a very erroneous impression as to the length of our frontier. It could not be much more than a tenth part of what the Hon. Gentleman had stated to be threatened.—(Hear, hear.) The whole Orange River frontier was thinly inhabited by people whenever attacked us. The Orange River sovereignty, he would observe, was taken on account of the boors, not of the Kafirs ; the only part on which were Kafirs was be tween the Wintenberg and the sea. The whole of Natal was surrounded by Zoolahs, not Kafirs. There were none in any part of it. These Zoolahs were per fectly peaceable, as had been stated by the Right Hon. the Under-Secretary. The Hon. Member for Stafford shire, in the same breath that he affirmed that not a month was to be lost, recommended a commissioner to be sent out. This appeared to be simply a contradic tion in terms.—(Hear.) The Committee itself could decide whether a commissioner was desirable, and, meantime, far better than a local commissioner, provide a constitution, and decide what portion of the expense should be paid by the colony. The Hon. Member for Northampton talked of boors in the Kat River. Why the whole population there were Hottentots.—(Hear, hear.) Appoint a Committee, and the Government, no doubt, would be ready to lay all the papers before it, and there would be found plenty of people in England able and willing to give information on the subject. Colonel THOMPSON had heard no answer to the allegation of the Hon. Mover that there had been dis tinct breaches of treaty, to which were to be referred the first origin of this war. On the other hand, circum stances had been suentiolleti which bQrQ 90t that atiee4- EVENING, APRIL l 6) 1851. Select Committee, let him abrogate the functions of a Government altogether, and confess he was so weak as to Co unable to control what belonged to England.— (Hear, hear.) The Ministry was responsible for the government of the country. That House was not to take upon itself the administration of affairs, but was to stand separate and was to be the judge in the last resort over the Administration. Let not the House then cede to a Committee of their own body those functions of govern ment which the Noble Lord and his colleagues truly held, but did not adorn.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who bad just sat down, follox ing to some ex tent the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford University, but greatly exaggerating his views, had ex pressed his surprise that the Government should have proposed: to appoint a Select Committee to consider a very grave and important point connected with the colo nial policy of this country. He (Mr. Labouchere) must say that he was astonished that such an argument should have been employed by two Gentlemen so well acquainted with the history of our colonies. He remembered, in the case of Canada, at the time of a very interesting crisis in the affairs of that colony, that Mr. Huskisson, a Co lonial Minister not of small repute, acting under no less a person than the Duke of Wellington, asked the House to appoint a Select Committee to consider the whole affairs of Canada. He (Mr. Labouchere), though then a young Member, served upon that Committee, and he well remembered what their proceedings and recommendations were. lie believed that they were some of the most important recommenda tions that had ever been made. They pointed out an entire change of our policy with regard to Ca• nada. Those recommendations had been to a great extent acted upon by that and successive Governments, and in his conscience he believed that to them in a great measure we owed it that we still retained Canada as a colony of this country.—(Hear, hear.) A similar course was adopted on perhaps the most difficult and important colonial question that it had ever fallen to the lot of a Government to deal with—he meant the condition of the slave population in the West Indies. The whole course of legislation with regard to slavery in those colonies was the fruit of the anxious investigations of that Committee. Slave emancipation was ushered in, supported, and, in fact, carried by the authority of that Committee.—(Hear, hear.) Again. the same course had been pursued with reference to the apprenticeship ques tion, when the Colonial Secretary—a man not wanting in firmness and energy—Lord Stanley, he believed—did not think he was lowering the authority of his office by asking for a Select Committee. Unless they said, then, that the affairs of the colonies were to be ieft entirely to the Colonial-office, without any care or solicitude on the part of the House, he did not see what reflection there could be upon the Government for asking from time to time, as occasion required, for the assistance of Select Committees to consider important political questions.—(Hear, hear.) Again, in the case of the Cape, some of the many courses of policy with re ference to the treatment of those aborigines had been recommended by a Committee of the House of Commons of which he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had been himself a member. The Right Hon. Gentleman had argued as it the only danger to be apprehended at the Cape of Good Hope was that the white population might be overwhelmed by the coloured population; but the Committee of which the Right Hon. Gentleman was a member took a very different view of the subject. He ( Mr. Labouchere) believed that if the white population were left to themselves in that colony, without any assistance from this country, al though they might at first be exposed to danger from the natives, and there might be scenes of bloodshed and devas ie . ion,the ultimate danger was that the extermination of the aborigines would ensue. That was the view taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite as a member of the Committee. [Mr. GLADSTONE—No, I opposed it ] If that were so, he (Mr. Labouchere) must admit that the personal argument, so far as the Right Honourable Gentleman was concerned, fell to the ground; but he was entitled at least to claim the authority of the ma jority of the Committee as in favour of such opinion. The whole tenour of the report of the Committee of 1837 was this—that it was the special and sacred duty of the Government, and the Parliament to exercise their authority wherever British colonies were planted in juxtaposition with great masses of aboriginal inhabitants, to prevent the frightful conse quences that must ensue from allowing the passions of the white and black population to be excited and arrayed against each other, thus leading to dreadful scenes of carnage and desolation. He begged to remind Hon. Gentlemen what were the questions really before them. The Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Adderley) had pro posed that Commissioners should be sent out to the Cape of Good Hope. He (Mr. Labouchere) thought the general sense of the House was against that proposition. —(Hear, hear.) He considered, that if the Governor and the other chief officers of that colony deserved the confidence of the Government, they were at least as much to be depended on as any Commissioners who could be sent out to make inquiries —(Hear, hear)—and the necessary effect of sending out Commissioners would be to weaken the authority of the Governor and other official persons at a moment when it was of the utmost importance that their authority should be strengthened and upheld in every possible way. The other proposal before them was that of his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell), that a Committee of that House should be appointed to consider the whole of the complicated and difficult question connected with the relations be tween this country and the tribes on our South African frontier. The Government had been charged with en deavouring to evade responsibility in making this propo sal, but they in no degree shook off responsibility in requesting the aid of a Committee, not to consider what measures were requisite to meet an urgent and instant state of things, for that was the duty of the Executive Government, but to consider deliberately, and to report to the House, what should be the fixed and settled po licy of this country with regard to the question of the Cape frontier. That was no more a subject peculiarly, and solely, and exclusively belonging to the Executive Government, than were the questions relating to Canada in 1837, or the questions as to the Weet Indian slavery, with regard to which Committees of that House had been appointed; and he thought it was a subject upon which the Government, without giving up the least por tion of that responsibility which attached to them, might justly and properly ask for a Committee to assist and give weight to their deliberations. These were the grounds on which the Government proposed the ap pointment of a Committee. He thought them as suffi cient and complete as those upon which the appointment of any similar Committee had ever been demanded, and he hoped the House would not refuse to aid and encou rage the Government in the course they had pursued by consenting to the amendment of his Noble Friend. Mr. HUME had never heard a speech in that House more at variance with facts than that of the Right Hun. Gentleman—(A laugh)—who seemed to forget that the whole policy of the Government towards the colonies had, within the last few years, undergone a change. Instead of keeping up the system of governing in Down ing -street, the desire now was to git rid of the colonies, and to allow them to govern themselves.—(Laughter, and Hear, hear.) After the debate a few nights ago on the motion of his Hon. Friend (Sir W. Molesworth), a newspaper of great influence charged all those who ad vocated the opinions of the Hon. Baronet with a desire to separate the colonies from England, and so far to weaken this country; but the object of the policy ad vocated by the Hon. Baronet and by himself was to render the colonies better affected and more devoted towards England than they were now, to relieve this country from the expense of maintaining them, and to enable them to conduct their own affairs, which they could do much more satisfactorily to themselves than it could be done for them in Downing-street. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) called upon the House to take care of the white population in the colonies; but the white population, who were the best judges of the matter, had no fear of any danger, for they asked to be allowed to manage their own local affairs. The colonists said, " We have perfect con fidence; we believe the disturbances and wars which have taken place were wars of aggression; we believe the natives will observe treaties, and that we can conduct our relations with them with perfect security." Why, there was a penalty attending severity and oppres sion towards the natives. In such a case the natives would revolt; it would be necessary to resort to coercion; coercion entailed expense, and that expense would make the colonists very cautious how they entered upon wars. He had been informed within a month past by gentle man from the Cape of Good Hope that the colonists apprehended no difficulty if they were allowed to manage their own affairs, and that they were prepared to under take the task. Tho colonists were not answerable for the measures of the colonial governor appointed by this country, and it would be hard and creel to call upon them to defray the expense of a war in which they were not involved. The Noble Lord had said that the colonists had never been ready to give cordial assistance to the Government of this country. [Lord J. Russell was understood to express his dissent.] He certainly under stood the Noble Lord to say that there had been a want of cordiality at the Cape of Good Hope in supporting the measures necessary for suppressing the aggression;the but why should the colonists afford assistance . to e so Government when they had been treated like n many cattle, and had never had He anything with it to w d a o s with their own government ? now in the power of the House of the Cape of delegates from the mass of the people of foro r . evil for the future, for there were in th t i n s c p o r u e n ve tr n y t Good Hope, who had come hero to h se a constitution as would unite the four months without anything being d o o l e n body o. T o h t f h e e r e t m h rße e s i g h t lonists, but they had been allowedw tottlreenasuacihn Hon. Gentleman had asked i o d f , a o w m i question mitres. was Quite not th e revers carried t e_._ h o r moLuwinga Lard tdt Stan l e e a y n s s pwosaes abuses and he , brought not be regulated by any hisU own responsibility. The out his own plan up gCeylonive adviceC om Committee t t t e h e e might which the Minister denied. He (Mr. Hume) hoped the go n h ve t r b e e re c e i o te t, d, he b t ut te th e a x t House would not a g ree to would be shelving t he q uestion . appfooirnta a tw C e o lv m e m m i o t o te th e; o i r t more. But a Commission to T b h e e s fi en rs t t tohuithgwwasas to formrequired and would be of gr eat use. a responsible Government Let the Commissioners go out and stand betweenteaorigtnes band the colonists, l and see matters properly arranged.—(Hear.) Why should the Government defer giving responsible govern ment, and throwing on the colony the duty of its own defence as soon as the war could be concluded? We should not refuse to the colonists that which we had pledged ourselves to give them, and which would secure their cordial co-operation, and unite th em i n repress i ng agr ession.—(Hear.) Mr. J. BELL could not:allow the remarks of the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Roebuck) to pass without some notice, as it might be supposed that the House ac quiesced in principles at variance with morality, honour, and Christianity.—(Hear, hear.) That gentleman laid it down that it was proper to "do evil that good might come," and he was ready to justify injustice, and held that, because we were civilised and Christians, it was justifiably for us t o t a k e possession of land we had not paid for, and exterminate the people there. But who was to be the judge which parties were the most civilized?— (Hear, hear.) We might say that certain cottagers in a rural district were less civilized and educated than our selves, and go and take possession of their village.— (Hear, hear.) If it ware i mposs ibl e t o o b ta i n f ore i gn possessions by other means it would be better to remain without them than obtain them at the price of blood. —(Cries of "Hear, bear.") B u t it was well known that these aborigines were ready to sell their land at a moderate price—(A laugh)—th a t t h ey were qu it e o p en to terms of capitulation—(A laugh)— an d th a t t h ere were other means of civilzation.—(Hear, hear.) There were principles of honour among savages. B u t w h a t eve r might be the fact with regard to their disposition, nothing could justify that bloodthirsty and rapacious spirit which appeared to be recommended by the Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck). Mr. S. HERBERT was placed, like some oth er Mem bers, in a situation of difficulty in reference to the pro positions before the House. The precedents cited by the President of the Board of Trade did not appear spot_ cable. He had quoted Mr. Huskisson's Committee upoi Canada, but the object of that Committee was quite_dis tinct from that moved for by the Noble Lord. That inquire into a Committee sought for by the colony to into alleged grievances, the Government being, as it were, impeached. Then there was the Committee upon the apprenticeship question—a singularly infelicitous precedent to quote, for the House reversed the decision of the Committee, and got rid of apprenticeship.—(Hear, hear.) A C omm itt ee a pp o i n t e d by th e Go v ernment did not offer much hope of a solution of our difficulties. The Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire had said that the country was governed by speeches. There must be something intelligible in these [A MEMBER—Not always.]—(A laugh.) Well, motions were sometimes not so intelligible as they might be, and the Noble Lord's was not. A Committee w as t o b e a pp o i n t e d on t h e same principle as that on official salaries; and the Noble Lord put the report in the fire.—(Hear, hear.) Was this a case (without reference to prec e d en t s ) w hi c h wou ld justify the appointment of a Co mm itt ee ? A war was going on; it was necessary that the Executive at the Cape should be unshackled by any doubts as to the in tentions of the home Government—(Hear, hear)—and should have clear instructions or an unfettered discretion. —(Hear.) Of the two propositions a commission ap peared more rational than a Committee. A commis sioner would be on the spot and could tell what was going on. With a Committee portions of the evidence would be filtering out, and the Governor would be doubt ful how he was to proceed, as one or another view seemed to prevail.—(Hear, hear.) The President of the Board of Trade said a governor was as good as a commissioner; he might have gone further, and said that a Govern ment was as good as a Committee.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. S. Herbert) should vote against any proposition of the kind now made to the House. Mr. BOOKER was for fair play. Ministers deserved the encouragement of the House in this matter, and should have his vote.—(Hear, hear.) They had shown becoming vigour and manliness in attempting to main tain our great colonial empire, and he was not going to refuse a Committee when they asked for it in this emer gency.—(Hear, hear.) The state of the Cape was a question of vast difficulty, and the Government had done all they could, in sending out an officer of great ability, who ought to enjoy the confidence of the House. Mr. HAWES said he would occupy the House for a very few moments, while he called their attention to the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Her bert), who seemed to think some great evil would hap pen to the colony by the plan his Noble Friend had pro posed, and that the policy to be pursued for termieating the war would be thereby impaired. But he had not informed the House how that result was to follow from the appointment of the Committee. The Government desired to inform the gentlemen on the Committee fully and entirely with respect to their past policy, but that House was not the best place to communicate it in. He was not without grounds for saying so, for when the Noble Lord addressed them with. a full statement of his policy, there was hardly a House present, and some of the most distinguished speakers were absent. The policy pursued had not been en exterminating policy, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, but one which would lay the foundations for a great colony hereafter. No doubt our early colonization was marked by the extinc tion of native races, but it did not follow the same result should take place now; and in New Zealand the temper, justice, and ability of the Governor had proved that co lonization could progress along with the preservation and civilization of the natives. He earnestly hoped the House would do justice to the Government, and give them an opportunity of laying before a Committee all the information in their power, to prove what had been the policy misrepresented by Hon. Gentlemen opposite. Mr. ADDERLEY replied, he was surprised the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hawes), after the experience of the last two years, should bo in favour of a Select Com mittee. As to Sir Harry Smith, he wished to state he intended no reflection whatever on him, for a more gallant and experienced officer did not exist, but he re garded him and Lord Grey as exponents of a system. A commissioner could do many things that could not be done by a Committee. For instance, make treaties with chiefs and wind up affairs on the spot. The House then divided on Mr. Addorley's motion, and the numbers were— Ayes Noes Majority --70 Lord J. Russell's amendment then became the main question, and, the House being divided on it, the num hers were— Ayes Noes 128 60 Majority ... ---68 Mr. HE ADLAM moved for a Select Committee to consider the policy of extending the law of mortmain, so as to include personal estate, and generally to con sider whether any alteration should be made in the law as it affects testamentary or other dispensations in favour of religious, charitable, or permanent objects. The Hon. Member explained, that his object was not to legislate with respect to any particular portion of the community, but to supply a defect in the law, and he pledged himself, if the Committee should be appointed, to introduce a practical measure. Mr. J. O'CONNELL expressed his gratification at the Hon. Member's declaration that his intended legis lation would not be directed against the Catholics in particular. The motion was then agreed to. Lord H. VANE moved for and obtained leave to bring in a Bill for abolishing the fees paid to county and other coroners, and for providing for the payment of such co roners by salaries. The Small Tenements Rating Act Amendment Bill passed through Committee. The Assessed Taxes Act, the Timber and Coffee Du ties Aot, and the resolutions of the Committee of Supply were severally reported. The Exchequer•bills (17,756,6001.) Bill, and the In demnity Bill, as amended, were severally considered. The House adjourned at One o'clock till Monday, the 28th inst. COURT CIRCULAR. His Royal Highness Prince Albert presided, yester day afternoon, at a meeting of the Royal Commission for the promotion of the Exhibition in 1851, of the works of industry of all nations. His Royal Highness arrived at the Exhibition-building in Hyde-park at three o'clock, attended by Lieutenant- Colonel lion. C. B. Phipps, Colonel Hon. Charles Grey, and Lieutenant-Colonel Hon. Alexander Gordon. The Commissioners present were Earl Granville, Lord Overstone, the Right Hon. Henry Labouchere, MX, the Right Hon. William E. Gladstone, M.P., Sir Richard Westmacott, Sir Charles Lyell, Sir Charles L. Eastlake, Mr. Baxley, Mr. Cobden, M.P., Mr. Cubitt, Mr. John Gott, Mr. Pusey, M.P., Dir. John Shepherd (chairman . of the East India Company), and Mr. Hop kins ( p resi dent of the Geological Society). Mr. Scott Russell and Sir Stafford Nothcote, secreta ries to the Royal Commission, and Mr. Bowring, actlng secretary, were in attendance. Colonel Reid, chairman of the ExecutivedCismr.mLitteoen, Colonel Lloyd, special Commissioner, Playfair, special Commissioner, were also present. The meeting broke up at half-past five o'clock, at which hour the Queen arrived to inspect the Exhibition. Her Majesty was accompanied by their Royal High nesses the Princess Royal and the Princess Alice, and was attended by the Marchioness of Douro, Lady in Waiting, and Colonel Buckley, Equerry in Waiting. Colonel Reid, Chairman of the Executive Committee. received the Queen on alighting from her carriage, and attended her Majesty and Prince Albert during their in spection of the works of sculpture and other objects of interest in the Exhibition, Her Majesty and Prince Alb er t too k the i r departure a littl e before seven o'clock, and returned to Buckingham Palace. His Royal Highness Prince Albert, attended by Lieu tenant-Colonel Hon. A. Gordon, rode out on horseback yesterday morning. His Royal Hghness the Prince of Wales, attended by Mr. Birch, took a drive in an open carriage yesterday. Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal and the younger members of the Royal Family took their accus tomed exercise yesterday. Her Majesty and his Royal Highness Prince Albert, attended by the Marchioness of Douro, Colonel Buck ley, and Lieut.-Colonel the Hon. A. Gordon, visited her Royal Highness the Duchess of Gloucester, yesterday evening, at Gloucester House. Lord Byron has relieved tho Earl of Listowel in his duties as Lord in Waiting to the Queen; and Captain the Hon. Joseph Denman (Royal Navy) has relieved Lieu tenant-General Sir Edward Bowater in his duties as Groom in Waiting to her Majesty. A deputation on Smithfield Market had an interview, yesterday, with Sir George Grey, at the Home-office- The deputation consisted of Sir James Duke, MY Masterman, M.P., Mr. H. L. Taylor, Mr. John Dixon,vl Mr. Richard Taylor, Mr. Deputy Hicks, Mr. J . 11. Mr. Dakin, and the City Remembrancer. Mr. Pressly had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, yesterday, at his official residence, in Downing-street. A deputation, consisting of Mr. Sanda_re:, M.P., Mr. Cherry, and Mr. Worship (Committee of Health Bill), had an interview with Lord Seymour, yesterday, at the office of her Majesty's Commissioners of Woods and Fc rests, in Whitehall-place. ELOPEMENT.--We have to record an elopement this week; the gentleman from_Althorp, the lad y f rom t h e B urr ingham side) Ct ke Trent. The parties were married at Hull, which ie a kind of Gretna- green for all runaway matches from Lincolnshire. In this case, it is said, steps will be taken to t r y the validit y of millriages th us s o l e mnis e d. They have been of .uch frequent occurrence lately, that both t h e Archbishop of York and the Bishop of Lincoln have been c, applied to for their interference tO check the J 3 clergy.— y or Ashire Gazette, PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. From the Voics and Proceedings of the Efetme of Can:mins TUESDAY, APRIL 15. KAFIR TRIBES. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That an bumble Address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously pleased to appoint one or more Commissioner., with instructions to proceed to South Africa, to inquire and report as to the best mode of adjusting the relations between this Country and the Kafir Tribes ; and also, of determining the engagements entered into by her Majesty's High Con miEsioner in his settlement of the extended territory Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words " * Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the relations between this Country and the Kafir and other Tribes on out, South African Frontier," instead thereof:—Question pat, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The House divided : MINORITY—AYES, 59. Arkwright, George Gaskell, J. M. Palmer, Robert 1 Baillie, 11. J. Gladstone, W. E. Repton, G. W. J. Bankes, George Goold, Wyndham Roebuck, J. A. Beckett, William Greene, John Scully, Francis Burghley, Lord Guernsey, Lord Seymer, H. K. Cardwell, Edward Halsey, T. P. Spooner, Richard Carew, W. P. Hamilton, Lord C. Stafford, Augusttui Child, Smith Herbert, Sidney Stanley, E. H. Christopher, R. A. Hornby, John Stuart, H. Cocks, T. S. Fiume, J. Start, H. G. Deedes, W. Keating, Robert Sutton, J. H. Disraeli, B. Lockhart, W. Urquhart, David Duckworth, Sir J. Manners, Lord G. Vesey, Thomas Dundas, George Meux, Sir Henry Vyse, It. 11. Dunne, Colon e l Miles, P. W. S. Wakley, Thomas East, Sir J. B. Monsen, William Wegg-Prosser, F. Edwards, Henry Mowatt, Francis Williams, W. Evelyn, William J. Naas, Lord Filmer, Sir E. Noel, Gerald J. Truism. Fox, W. J. O'Connell, John Molesworth,Sir W. Fuller, A. E. O'Connell, M. J. Adderley, C. E. MAJORITY—NOES, 129. Adair, Hugh E. Evans, John Morris, David Adair, R. ShaftO Ewart, William Fitzwilliam. G. W. .. 11 , ulgrave, Earl Aglionby, H. .IS orreys, Lord Forster, Matthew Anson, Colonel W. Sir D. Anson, Viscount Fertescue, Chichester ellic2cfT Fortescue, J. W. Anstey, T. C. Paget, Lord A. Colonel FreestUn, Bagshaw, John Paget, Lord Clarence Baines, M. T. G each, Charles Pal merston, VII. Baring, Sir F. Glyn, G. C. Parker, John Bell, Jacob Goddard, A. L. Pinney. William Bellew, R. M. Grenfell, C. Pascoe Plowden, w. a. Berkeley, Henry F. Grenfell, Charles W. Price, Sir Robert Berkeley, C. L. Grey, Sir G. Pusey, Phili p Bernal, Ralph Grey, Ralph W. Rawdon, Col onel Best, John Hall, Sir B. Rice, E. R. Bothell, Richard Hardcastle, J. A. Rich, H enr y Birch, Sir T. Hawes, Benj. Romilly, Colonel Booker, T. W. Ileadlam, T. E. Rumbold, C. E. Boyle, Colone. Heald, James Russell, Lord J. Brocklehurst, John Heywood, James Russell, E. Brotherton, Joseph Hindley.Charles Seymour, Lord Bunbury, E. H. Hobhouse, T. B. Sheridan, B. B. Butler, P. S. Howard, Lord E. Smith, J. A. Buxton, Sir E. Howard, C. W. G. Somerville, Sir W. Carter, J. B. Howard, E. G. Spearman, H. J. Cavendish, G. 11. Jocelyn, Viscount Stanford, J. F. Chaplin,lW. J. Kershaw, James Stanton, W. S. Clay, James Labouchere, Henry Tenison, E. K. Clay, Sir W.' Lawley, B. R. Thompson, Colonel Cockburn, Sir A. Lewis, G. C. Thornely, Thomall Coke, Edward K. Locke, Joseph Towneley, John Collins, William Mackinnon, W. A. Townley, R. G. Cowper, W. F. 31`Gregor, John Townshend, Captain Craig, Sir W. G. Mahon, O'Gorman Vane, Lord H. Crowder, It. B. Mandeville, Viscount Willcox, Brodie Marshall, J. G. Dawson, T. V. Williamson, Sir H. D'Eyncourt, C. T. Marshall4Willlam -. Wilson, James Douglas, Sir C. Matheson , Colonel Wilson, Matthew Duncan, George Maule, Fox Wood, Sir Charles Dundas, Admiral Melgund, Viscount Wood, Sir W. P. Dundas, Sir D. Milnes, R. M. Wye. M. Ebrington, Viscount Mitchell, T. A. TELLILLS. Ellice, 8., jun. Moody, C. A. Hayter, W. G. Ellis, John Morison, Sir W. Hill, Lord M. Words added :—Main Question, as amended, put. The House divided : MAJORITY—AYES, 128. Adair, Hugh E. Evans, J. Mu'grave, Earl Adair, R. A. E wart, William Norreys, Lord Aglionby, H. A. Fitxwilliam, G. W Norreys, .Sir D. Anson, Colonel Forster, Matthew Ord, William Anson, Viscount Fortescue, Chichester Paget, Lord A. Anstey, Thomas Fortescue, J. W. Paget, Lord C. Bagshaw, John Freestun, Colonel Palmerston, VIA. Baines, M. T. Geach, Charles Parker, John Baring, Sir F. T. Glyn, G. C. Pinney, ,W. Bell, Jacob Goddard, A. L. Plowden, W. H. Bellew, R. M. Grenfell, C. Pascoe Price, Sir R. Berkeley, C. L. G. Grenfell, Charle s W. P use y, P. Bernal, Ralph Grey, Sir George Rawdon, Colonel Best, John Grey,:R. W. Rice, E. R. Bethel', Richard Hall, Sir B. Rich, Henry Birch, Sir T. Hardcastle, J. A. Romilly, Colonel Booker, T. W. Hawes, B. Rumbold, C. E. Boyle, Colonel Headlam, T. E. Russell, Lord John Brocklehurst, J. Heald, James Russell, Edward S. Brotherton, J. Heywood, James Seymour, H. D. Binibury, E. H. Hindley, C. Sheridan, E. R. Butler, P. S. Hobhouse, T. B. Smith, John Abel Buxton, Sir E. Howard, Lord E. Somerville, Sir W. Carter, J. B. Howard, C W. G. Spearman, H. J. Cavendish, G. H. Howard,iE. G. Stanton, W. H. Chaplin, W. J. Jocelyn, Viscount Tenison, Edward K. Clay, James Kershaw, James Thompson, Colonel Clay, Sir W. Labouchere, H. Thornely, T. Cobbold, J. C. Lawley, B. R. Towneley, John Cockburn, Sir A. Lewis, G. C. Townley, R. G. Coke, Hon. E. K. Locke, Joseph Townshend, Capt. Collins, William Mackinnon, W. A. Vane, Lord H. Cowper, W. F. M'Gregor, John Willcox, Brodie Craig, Sir W. G. Mahon, O'Gorman Williams, W. Crowder, R. E. Mandeville, Viscount Williamson, Sir IL Dawson, T. V. Marshall, J.',,G. Wilson, James D'Eyncourt, T. Marshall, W. Wilson, Matthew Douglas, Sir C. Matheson, Colonel Weod, Sir Charlie' Duncan, George Maule, Fox Wood, Sir W. P. Dundas, Admiral Melgund, Viscount Wyvill,l3larinadnks Dundas, Sir David Mines, R. M.E Ebrington, Lord Mitchell, T. A. Ellice, Edward, jun. Morison, Sir W. Ellis, John Morris, David TELLERS. Hayter, W. G. Hill, Lord ISLarcal MINORITY-NOES, 60: Arkwright, George Gaskell, J. M. O'Connell, M. J. Baillie, 11. J. Gladstone, W. E. Palmer, Robert Bankes, G. Goold, Wnydham Repton, G. W. Beckett, W. Greene, John Roebuck, J. A. Burghley, Lord Guernsey, Lord Scully, Francis Cardwell, Edward Halsey, T. P. _ . Carew, W. 11. P. Hamilton, Lord C. Spooner, R. Child, Smith Herbert, Sidney Stafford, Augustin Christopher, R. Hornby, John Stanford, J. F. Cocks, T. S. Hume, Joseph Stanley, E. H. Deedes, W. Keating, Robert Stuart, H. Disraeli, B. Lockhart, W. Sturt, Henry G. Duckworth, Sir J. Manners, Lord G. Sutton, H M. Dundas, George Melia, Sir 11. Urquhart, David Dunne, Colonel Miles, Philip W. S. Vesey, Ilon. T. East, Sir J. Monsell, William Wyse, R. 11. H. 11. Edwards, H. Moody, C. A. Wakley, T. Evelyl, W. J. Mowatt, Francis Wert-Prosser, F. Filmer, Sir E. Naas, Lord TELLERS. Fox, W. J. Noel, G. J. Molesworth, Sir W. Fuller, A. E. O'Connell, John Adderley, C. E. TO THE SECRETARY OF THE BRADFORD REFORM ASSOCIATION. (EVERY MONDAY AND WEDNESDAY.) Sir,—On Monday the 14th, the Assessed Taxes and Timber and Coffee Duties Acts were considered in Com mittee. Most important principles were developed and laid down on the part of the Government, which the commercial and industrial community must, as I have said before, be insane, if they do not view as indisput able reasons why they should defend the existing Go vernment as the apple of their eye. On the question of the House Tax, there was of course the usual array, of people not liking to pay taxes. It is impossible to quarrel with the expression of this zoo_ f rb e re e eeg l adr i t g tr ; as b ta u i but , w wu we inwas sy turn must not be quarrelled with for saying, there is • higher consideration for those who are capable of enter taining it. Under the existing conviction that there must and will be taxes, a reasonable object, l• addition to paying as little as we can, u a to get the taxes that are to be, shif te d o from a w t ro a n t g ume, way is gtooodthpeolirciyghint; things to do t an n d om e t te hi a ng: Now what the Chancellor of of ca t fi he e this, " I have no doubt it would be le r x pleasant to my patients, that I should ,take o ff Window - tax t h et i ra . ::x _ an _ n _ ottnh . B, oT an uig d mhb i t :t tor t . But.lxtner na d Y o a t tOttae-tax, nothing in its stead. which is a good form I take off such tax, which are bad ones•" In whi ch every man and As before, let us have one thing at once. bad to good, while the him. sp rinkling t is t axes shifte d ss I:f fr f r eo o e from sbuopypworittha Let us get the t wind blows that way; and then the q uest i on of keeping down the best taxation to a minimum, will come in due order under the operation of the checks for that end ell' ° • erations in the Coffee duties, brou g ht out from a Pr 3,o vh u ide ng Member a curious resurre ction _ of what we used to hear at Corn-la w meet i ngs; and we have a fair warn ing of what it is the Protectionists would give us. He summed up all the disadvantages of bad climate, bad soil. and long voyage, which attend the procuring of coffee from Ceylon, and p resse d i t on the wondering House as the reason why we should volunteer to pay for the dearer coffee. On Tuesday was a lively debate en the Kafir War — the play of Hamlet with the part of Hamlet omitted. Everybody talked of all imaginable Kafir wars except the present; the great point for concealment and non observation being, where the present Kafir war came have from. The cry of "irreclaimable savages" ou' s reminded the House of Boz's story of the cacik* ln , ! id ' who runs at a strange cat with a red-hot iron, exciatm ing, " 0, that is one of the most deceitftilleste crea tures that is." The speech of the Member for Sheffield be nuts for the Aborigines Proteotioen House Societ y; did, La they must not make the mistake a t i li n at ts come taking it seriously. It is on record to ,erg S y e m rv a a n of the Est a Estab lishment said soul read Swift's "Advicet h ought extremely there were many things in it be sbould have objectionable, and regretted a lishment should have set his hand to such opinions. carried his sober re sarcasm m er i f l o u r tb S er h , efii eld by as king how irresistible it the injustice was ill coming at would be, if the foreigners grandeßected in this country, pseudo-philanthropy and sahlio,uladuddecalaftreerthanatt, itwas Exeier.hall hypo crisy to make objections to the cense- Every.body know the foreigners came here by their i m p ro ved .acquaintance with the social qv virtue n u c e e o s f . in relations of man, and pursuit of the greatest happi ness wh i c h was to result from establishing them. Every body knew, that whatever abstinence might be professed at d ot , they came for all our goods, and it was folly should n o t h ave them. W e might lament o ver the ththeer` prolonged agony" of the process, but the ttr°vueseraway was to keep our eyes fixed on the happiness which was to be the result. It might be too, that the invaders were Anglo-Saxons; and the rule is, that what the Anglo-Saxon can, he takes. Thera should be no halting half-way in a good joke. The Hou se , on r i s in g , adjourned till Monday, 28tb April. I am, Sir, yours very sincerely, AN OLD REFORMER. London, A Iril 16, 1851. ----- [ADvErrisEmENT.]—Bilious Complaints, Indiges tion, Flatulency, and Affections of the Liver, may be cured by Holloway's Pills.—Symptoms in of these stomach, disorders sins* are a nausea, distension and spasmodic of in the of oppression and sinking alter eating, want of appetite, heart. burn, langour, dejection of spirits, and general debility. The removal of the cause of complaint is the most important step, for which purpose have recourse to Holloway's Pills, as tb,y corrected, the redundance of bile carried possess such cleansing and renovating properties that the action of the liver is speedily 0 perfect health.—Sold by all Druggists off, the stomach strengthened, the spirits revived, and the patient is restored . and at Professor linnoway's Establishment, 244, st ran d, London. lIIMM I IL i U'