The Sun. — London, England, 1851-03-11 00:00:00

.....--•7 comPari' lent since HUME had waited with great anxiety to know ghat reason the Right Hon. Baronet could assign for nti nuing the number of men fur the navy at the pre teut tenotent, and the only reason he coule understand him to assig n was, that he could not be indifferent to i te c` was passing across the Channel; but it was sin• sr though, perhaps, the Right Hon. Baronet Asa not aware of it—that lately, in the French Cham °II a reduction in the number of men for the navy du 'llg proposed, it was held that they ought not to Tr eece them too much, because the English navy was kept Dat so large a number.—(Hear, hear.) Thus the rench kept up a large number because the English did e - e ' lltic i we made the namber kept up by the Freech an er e llse for our keeping up a largo force as well. It. was beard in a circle. He had, however, cep:me:el to hate et from the Chancellor of the Exchequer some ex roftlation before they were called on to vote the numb, r eer i er of what the country was to expect from the get• It did not apiwar, from what had passe 1, e e ri e o e t lkh7 h the present Government meant to propose j ede lef ~Budget, but of this he was quite sure—that, trom general opinion, both in end out of that De, u se, the Budget already before the House could net V e t Re wished his Hon. Friend (Mr. Williams) th looked to other quarters, and hal told them what th e e trnited States were about. If there was any part ej 01: t orld President to which t in he his y sh mer o had saiduld look, when th ere they knew w he,sege were 0,000 tons of commercial shipping capable of being jelteverted to warlike purposes if required, that existed 1, 4 110 other part of the world. it was the United States. th t e h ir o tillips were svread over - the world nearly as much the ee of the United Kingdom. When war was over 10 eta down their navy, and he would jest state to the li' ll se what they had been doing in comparison with te e ,' we in our madness had been doing. The Seen eel , ° f the Admiralty in America said they had 4 b ri t line-of-battle ships, 12 frigates, 21 sloops, it eek gs• 7 steamers, and 5 store-ships, and upen the e e i there were only 4 line-of-battle ships and 2 large 111 53te° . But we bad lying idle 74 men-of-war which the W 3, er b en to se • had aunched a number equahole navy since the termination of the wog; all io ged vessel s to rot in ordinary, and went on buntline 14;:e Witho u t em ployi ng th ose that were already built. tle,"Pended no less than 2,000,0001. a-year in pulling . to Pieces, in building ships, and in letting then , ti It c et was to that point he wished to call the atten de:3°l the House. In America the President had re * ended a re d uc tion of the active list, finding that th e ve it s commercial Davy, almost as large as our own, Nod , its Present navy was too onerous to be kept up toe,'" could ask the Government what political rea tee c ould induce them to keep up a fleet of eight or tiee S4 ,l l-o f - the-line in the Mediterranean? All the ser tatameeet that large fleet had performed hal been te lie ns Greece. But was it fit, with so many peti tent" c'n their table for retrenchment, that the pre , th el s elount of the navy should be kept up without Q uit ° Strong reasons being assigned for it ? He sew 1,1 4 , °11 the 3d of March of this year no less than le e ,' Petitions, signed by 136,696 persons, had been eetrtted f or t h e repea l o f tax e s, and Hon. Member: , bear in mind this vote of ' the number of men le; ee th e principal expenditure, as everything must be ure r° Portion. The Right Hon. Baronet had referred to eon which was made in the naval expenditure Pte el e n t he Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon 'e th ei i ‘ ed over the Admiralty; but the Right Hon. Baronet he l d have told the House that that reduction was thaPOOL out of 5,000,0001,, while the reduction I,o cl ` l ght Hon. Baronet himself had effected was only fee e vu '2, oo l. out of 8,000,0001. Earl Grey's Government, N ee " moment it came into office, went on reducing tele Year, and at the same time improving, for they ke ep it in evidence that, after reducing the expenditure th ti ? 1,0 00,000 L, the navy was in a better condition tr ee e u efere the Right Hon. Gentleman began his re- Le m e e l cent; and Mr. Douglas, who was at one time ti d o e °f the Admiralty, on being asked by the Commis theirs what check there was over the expenditure, said lik e e _ e l e ee es check urn check until there was no cheek at 44 - et - leer.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member de l P°ns and the Government to which he belonged, leaved i credit for great, economy. He had no quarrel h ip :" Government on account of the navy until the 4 4 ' 837 -1838, when the charges became extravagant and th e i e essary. What, too bed been the consequence since 18 14 11 eonee-tax had been proposed? In the years 1843, th e 11845,1846, and 1847,after that tax had been imposed, itt e rrimates increased no less than 27.000,0001.; the tax tots Produced only 26,894,0001. during the same period; tr eep at if the income-tax had been given expend never e " have had all that increase in theiture. feet r t i 3lll d not conceive how it was that, with the present lisee •• •g of the country on the subject of reduction in ex te• !tette, the Government had taken upon themselves *h a t n 4 forward these estimates until they had explained e eet. the new Budget was to be.—(Hear, hear.) The illeCe number of men borne on the books of the navy had 1 ; Years 1835, 6,7, 8, was 29,638, and that number sle et ° en over and over again stated to be amply suffi get for the service of the country. Unless he had er ee l e Political reason clearly made out why that number be te : Tlot be equally sufficient now, he should certainly K e e that evening that the number of men voted for the l tr t : nt Year should not exceed 30 , 000 . He protested e mphatically against the longer maintenance of the ttierf l squadron, an experiment which, after 20 years' he een 4 proved wholly ineffectual for any purpose other elm "Le very mischievous one of injuring our commer lethe°nnexion and endangering our national friendship .ie et w ell-disposed powers. There was now an excel nee ° PPortunity for handsomely getting clear of litet . costly a b sur dity. The French Government li t he United Sates Government had both to eseee h e eeeotiations with Great Britain with a view !e be ing relieved from their engagements in the eth e 're so that the grand difficulty in the way of reme tete t,he squadron, insisted aspen by our Foreign Secre eke i Lest years was at an end.—(Hear, hear.) He e " teat the opinen of the Committee upon the point "enina, and hoe hoped he should find it disposed to ite re , . ter et not only with the African squadron, but also le tt Materially to reduce the squadron, or rather fleet, th an we . kept in the Mediterranean, with no other result tee i tems and danger.—(:Year, hear.) Upon thew heee te ms alone there might be at once a moat important Ith e i effected, and he called upon the 270 gentlemen ilea other day demanded relief for agricultural dis- V e ", he called upon them—(There was here a laugh at hea'rnest entirely empty condition of the Protectionist thoY i m ")—well, he called upon the 14 of them who had 1 1 , 1 0 ht et to be in their places on this occasion —(Hear, Bet he called upon them, if they desired honestly to Pter e e ,;lef, to join with him in obtaining that which must De ed ° .ee relief from taxation—relief, namely, from ex- It he tltre'—(lleler, hear.) Perhaps a few more of these 'ete e e'elen would come down and help him with their Leate;l;titer dinner.—(A laugh.) In 1835 we had under i 'lree -- " li en 167 ships of all classes, with 36,500 men, a hk-deel are d amp l y su fficient for every purpose. In 404 0 " the number was increases to 234 :,hips and alt;; and in 1848 !hero were voted 256 t e with 43,000 men, the number really b erne %i d ea book s being 44,500. Now, this sort of thing tette e'llteot be all o wed to continue. It was very ltte e •et just now the manufacturing and artisan clesses te°lerably well off, and provisions cheap, but he had th ree or four reversals of such prosperity in his 'ne e . % hod it was not at all imporieible that he might live a nother—such, for example, as that of 1843; and thUld like to know what would the country then say fiend,4. r ePresent7tives whe had permitted the present ex letiee'lare to proceed?—(Hear, hear.) As to represen llolke,• indeed, there could not be a greater reflection ette D „ c ur representation than the manner in which the had allowed the country to go on for several 'eft, Pest without a Government, letting the people of °Lie ee l iti be bandied about between three sets of men, no tOp e ; ) Which could foem a decent Administration. It %te e er, e to him that Lord Stanley paid but a very poor imeat to the Protectionist party in that House et e r ; 'Le stated that there was only one man among them *he t ',„ °l fice. Surely of the 270 gentlemen or thereabout, kio e ;hte other night voted for protection, there must be i like%"„telent to fill up the Treasury bench, the more l teti t 'e"Y when it was borne in mind that all the real 4 r4 . 14 each department was done by the clerks, who need stationary.—(A laugh.) It was not merely Mr. tko 1 4 ' 4 Who made a jest of their proceedings, they were Wh o of all Europe, and well they might be. d ays " did Lot see, when the " Old Doctor," as Mr. Punch tte4°l.etecla well-known personage , was sent for, u p on the re th e' l n"e hl Y judicious advice of the Nobl e Lord, that all O Doc tor " wo uld direct would he "As yea were?" h er Zith 1 1 `7se not one improve merit any way connected ele 'doctor departments with which he hue to do, . that the "ette , 'doctor had not done his best to stop; for such a ee(elherefore to be called in was utterly prepeeterous. T , (l ,t didn't send for your) No, they didn't send "lee a but he had been pretty nearly as long in prac- , e kie -4 e t he doctor that was sent for—(A laugh)—had 1" believed, more attention to passing events for 4 113' 4 twenty years—(Hear, hear)—and very possibly tt i ght have prescribed rather better than the other R aeh c) ."'c'r had done.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) It let oeinio that the country looked upon them as a Lk (44 1 n " had gone e n ta for allowing things to go on as they g ger - e t ' la g the lest two or three wanks.—(Hear, hear.) Min e w ere 658 Hon. Gentlemen, representatives of the ° ere; °i Great Britain and Iceland. utterly incapable of *tie l- o g to u de c ision upon great national questions on e farad i t „ the other.—(Hear, hear.) There was this Wl `qtro' Pared Aggression Dill; why, passed as it was ef 'nee d, that Bill would involve imminent danger At eller ekt war in the sister country, yet 330 or 350 'ell of that House had voted for it in its t it 4 trusted that the Noble Lord would a 1 0 tpY t bring in a Bill that would satisfy the coun e' l e t eon the subject or give up legislation upon ne t I ° Rether.—(Hear, hear.) But, at all evente, t e t 't the business of the country be at a stand Ntiq," r three other Weeks or more. Rather than this, "e s he should deprecate anything tending to excite eett et ,tropere" cry, ho should say her Majesty had 4 eee ee eeev , s recourse to a general election. In fact , this s hit e e, to be the only effectual remedy; for suppose ° tit, 'et a ° of 39,000 men refused, the Cabinet would cry mast ‘ • fo r , l° cannot go cr.." The House would say, "You eee'' ors.' The Cabinet would say, "We won't get ; ° nle - 1 1 ° 9 1 i1 Doctor would egrein be called in, then: , ;ha g . 3 tilts prescription as before, of "As you were; - chi na Lie farce would, fur the eacone thee, be ree l :- w ish `(Laughter, and cries cf "hear , hea l .") tell;" the Protectio t e e t gent lem e n would look precte '°euet4`.. Practical questions, instead of gettiere up futile th ee. Y natietines, ceiling names, anti ireputing evil nee ether cl te other peeple. At the Norfolk meeting the ler exeneple, with a Noble Lord in the cheer, tetee e ;• of the speakers stigmatized the Perliement er y 4 tld jrnel l as men who wanted to dethrone the Queen lie eta l l r eourag e reb e lli on , e n d s o or.; a Mr. Ball, in par 6eNa' using language whioh ought at once to have te etio rohibited by t h e c h a i rman . N ow , w hat the Pro °ogle 1 1 3 ' 3 t gentlemen should understated was, that there ° no relief for thal6tem, uny more than for other 11%4 , 1. 111M there was a decided reduction in our ex• Let By the destruction of agriculturist mono , "CI millions of money had been trans . Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who was rather indistinctly heard at the commencement of his speech, said, I will only eiter into the question of the number of men for the navy, and not into the grave charges which have been made with respect to the management of the dock- yards and other places, matters which belong more pro perly to the department of the Admiralty. still less, Sir, am I disposed to go over the vast field travelled by the Hon. Member for Montrose, who, not having been sent for on a late occasion, has, notwithstanding, fol lowed the example of Lord Stanley, and explained what his policy would have been had ho been seat for — (Laughter)—and what measures, had he taken office, he would have proposed in the capacity of the head of the Government.—(Laughter.) I shall not follow the Hon. GenCeman into that very extensive field. I shall speak merely of that which is the most important subject before the House, the number of meu we should vote for the navy, and I will not disagree with the Hon. Member for the West Riding, that the sum total of our navel expen diture is very much decided by the number of teen voted. I cannot at the same time admit, with the Honourable Gentleman the Member for the West Riding, that because there is an outcry now against the wastefulness in the dockyards, and because there is an outcry now against the political patronage, which he says effects every person who is employed in the dockyards, that therefore we aro to presume that those accusations are well founded. On the contrary, 1 believe that a great deal of wastefulness and abuse hes been corrected for many years past, and I believe that with regard to patronage, great improvements have been made of late years in the mode of these appointments (as we understood the Noble Lord). As for the outcry on these subjects, we know that long after an abuse has ceased, the same outcry will continue, because many years ago, when there were a great number of einecures, great complaints were made upon that subject, and an Act of Parliament was passed whereby the whole of the sinecures were abolished, and yet there is as mueh out cry now nearly as at that time, and we have continued complaints now of the existence of a great number of sinecures. Now, with respect to the number of men, I beg the House to consider that what we are now propo sing is not a number increased beyond the average which we have now kept up for about ten years. In 1841 the number of men voted was 43.000; and so on for the suc ceding years, 43,000, 39,000, 46,000, 40,000, 41,000, 42,000, 40,000, 39,000, 39,000. Those have been the numbers in past years. Therefore we are not proposing, as the House might suppose from the statement of the Hon. Member, at this time a very large increase in the number of our navy, but I do think that there are some general consideratioas which should induce the House not to make any considerable reduction in the numbers of that amount. I cannot but consider that of late years, and since 1835, and since that period when my Right Honourable Friend the Member for Ripon was at the head of the Admiralty, there has taken place a very great change in naval affairs, and one which must make a very great change in any war in which this country may in future be involved. Since that time the whole of the construction of large war steamers has taken place both in this country and in France, and by other naval powers, and we have seen of late years—not having been engaged in those wars ourselves—to what purpose these large steamers anel railways have been employed in carrying on rapidly those operations which would take place at the com mencement of a war. We have seen many thousand men transported in a few days from France to Civita Vecchia, and landed in the neighbourhood of the in tended seat of warlike operations. The time that ope• ration took was exceedingly short; and the men were transported without any difficulty. Last autumn, when there was an expection of war between Austria and Prus sia, 20,000 men, I think, were conveyed from Vienna in 48 hours to the frontier of Bohemia, and in the course of a fortnight 70,000 men were collected on that fron tier. Now, these things show that in case of war an enemy would be able, in the first place, to transport to his caast a number of men in a few days, which formerly would have taken months to collect; and allowing for accidents of wind and weather, they would be able in a few hours to transport these men thus collected to our shores. Now, Sir, these changes in the art of war ap pear to me to place this country much more in the po sition of a continental country than it ever was before. We do not altogether resemble a continental country, but still we must look a little as to what means all the continental countries take for their own defence. We see that they keep up enormous armies. We see that in addition to those armies they keep a prodigious force of militia. Even the United States of America, whose ex ample the Hon. Member for Montrose has quoted so much, I believe they have now a million of men enrolled as militia in the United States — Mr. HUME here made a remark which did not reach the gallery. Lord JO [IN RUSSELL—I am now talking of the military means of defence. Now we have Rot adopted the means which have been taken by continental powers, or even by the United States in this respect. We have not got a large army; su'ostracting from our whole army the troops in India and in the colonies, and our army, as compared with that on service in France, or even of any of the second-rate powers on the continent, is a very small army. Nor have we thought proper to adopt the plan of having a large militia force. There is very great difficulty in adopting a plan far a militia force in this country; difficulties and objections which, I think, would make the adoption of any plan founded on the former plan for the militia exceedingly objectionable if it was brought before this House. But admitting that you might have a militia force YOU have not one at present, and thererore you are in this country obviously, and in the knowlOge of all the world, without a great army and without a mind& force, and therefore I say if that is the case, take care at all events that you have an effiAent naval force. Do not part with that great arm of defence that you have, and do not expose yourselves to this, that for the first six months of war you might be utterly un able to send out a sufficient force to meet the hostile ope rations of your enemies. The Hon. Gentleman mentioned France; and certainly the more powerful naval arma ments of France and the many wars that we had had with France, induces cane naturally to turn one's eye rather to that poser than to others: But there ate other powers. We might be at war with Russia and Austria, and at the same time engaged in a friendly alliance with France. In that case, also, we ought to be able to have a sufficient naval force to meet any aggres sions which might take place. I cannot—though I cer tainly do not give way to the apprehensions that have been expressed, and the estimates that have been made of the means by which, if France were at war with us, they might immediately land 50,000 or 100,000 men on our shores; but still I do not think it is at all out of the question that in case of any war arising with France, there might be an attempt made by a very considerable armament to land troops in this country; and I should he very sorry that, in that case, we had no means to prevent them, a naval force, it possible, from effecting any successes. But, Sir, there is another way in which we might be met, and a way that was pointed out by a very intelligent naval officer, Prince do Joinville, in a pamphlet, which you may remember he published many years ago, and that was by having small detachments and continual small expeditions to vex our coasts and in furred from the pockets of the landed interest, And very justly so, to the pockets of the masses, end he begteed to tell the fourteen representatives of the Protectionitt party then present—(A laugh)—that their only chance of pasticipating in the general improvement was by riding to reduce the expenditure. He call td upon the Protectionists to join him, and to take his budget, which would give them a margin or at least 10,000,0001. With permission ot . the Committee, ho would shadow out the bed ;et he should propose. In place of the 19 500,0001. for the army, navy, and ordnance, they should go back to the ettionyes of 1334-35 , which amounted to some 12.000,0001. t.) 14,000,003/. There wee a mar in of 5 500,000/. at once, which, added to the present tltetneellor'3 s urplus of 2 500.000/, gave 8,000,000/. The interest of the debt, 23,000,000/, he would not touch, for he wished that that debt, laree it was, should be put in course of liquidetien, aid that we should pay our debts like honest men. he next item was the civil lien OF that he would not take one farthing from her Majesty, for he thought that she had at present too little for her own purposes, as she did not receive more than 60,0001 annually out of the 335,000/., the remainder being frittered away in gaudy and useless parade. Look at the 45 lords end ladies-in waiting, and the expenses of the Lord Chamberlain, the Lord Steward, and the Matter of the Horse's department. All these should he kept within their bounds, and ho called upon the Committee not to sanction a return to the folly of George IV., who put these people all in livery, dressed them like trumpeters. and was not cen tent till he cut out their coats himself.—(A laugh.) The whole amount necessary for the civil list might be ob tained from the sale of the Crown lands, which there could be no difficulty in effecting at their proper value. Then there were the expenses of courts of justice, diplo matic itansions, salaries and allowances, and he asked whether out of the sum of 2(800.0001, which was thus annually consumed, at least 300,0001. might not be saved? the same time he would remove the whole amount of the assessed taxes which fell so heavily upon the landed Gentry. Of the expense of collecting the revenue, at present between 3,000,0001. and 4,000,0001, at least one half might be eaved. Again, some 7,000,000/. that was taken in the course of collection never came to the Exchequer at all. He had himself in the year 1821 detected 220,000/. in the hands of one tax collector, which would Dever have been heard of but for him. Hr. Herries had fsamet an Act intended to prevent the repetition of such occurrences as much as passible, but he thing still continued. The actual cost to Great Bri tain of the colonies amounted to about 2,928,000/, and that at a time when every colony was anxious to have self-government, and was competent to bear its own ex eenses. Last of all, upon the miscellaneous estimates no can could deny that a vast amount might he spared. This was a kind of budget which, if agreed to, would enable the Government at once greatly to reduce taxa tion, and to lessen the burdens of the people. In con clusion, the Hon. Gentleman moved an amendment to the effect, that in accordance with the prayers of the numerous petitions for relief from the burdens of taxa tion, and especially with the view of .affording relief to the distress now existing among the owners and occu piers of land, it was the duty of that House, before put ting the motion for the number of seamen and marines, to take into its serious consideration in what manner and to what extent the number of men and ships might be reduced without detriment to the naval service of the country; that the African squadron was a useless and expensive addition to the naval establishment, and should, in the opinion of that House, be discon tinued; and that the number of seamen and marines to be voted for the year should be reduced to 30,000, which was the average of the four years between 1835 and 1839 . The CHAIRMAN observed that that was a resolu tion pledging the House to a certain opinion, which it was not competent for his Hon. Friend to propose. The vote was that 39,000 men should bo employed. It would be for the Committee to adopt that vote, to nega tive it, or to limit it. Mr. HUME—Then, I move as en amendment that the number be 30,000. On the question being put, Mr. M'GREGOR said, the Committee should be very unwilling to come to any vote of expenditure until they were acquainted with the means of revenue. He consi dered that the present system was faulty in itself from beginning to end. He especially deprecated the sytttm of the naval dockyards. He believed that 2 000,000/. was spent annually in those yards which might be re duced to at least a third of that amount, and a more efficient navy be the result. No private concern in the world could send ships to sea without positive ruin it the construction were managed on the same principle as was pursued in the naval. dockyards of this country. He found that we had a greater number of ships of the line, and of much greater force and tonnage, than the whole number of similar vessels in all the navies of every state in Europe besides. It was absurd to talk about the necessity of protecting our commercial marine, for it was fully competent to protect itself. He believed that single firms of this country could actually de feat the whole fleets of some nations. He knew one firm sending out twenty ships to India which amounted to a greater tonnage than the whole Danish fleet.; and he knew another firm in the Clyde that had vessels amounting to a greater tonnage than the whole American navy. He considered that our mer cantile marine pons sled a fie et that might terrify the navy of every other country in the world except France. The naval strength of France consisted of but 226 ships and 102 steam-ships, in all 328; and she had but two admirals, 10 vice admirals, 20 rear-admirals, 110 cap tains of the first class, 230 caetaine of the second, 650 lieutenants of marine, 550 midshipmen, and 300 tubor dinate officers, a very small portion of whom belonged to what in Englend was called the " non-efficient" branch of the service. Duriug the seven years fr,m 1832 to 1338 inclusive. the average amount of Lays' ix pencliture %vac:, 4,474.747/. In 1839 it increased about 1,000,0001 above th:-.t average, even above the expondi tare of 1338. In 1842 it increased above the averane of the tame seven years no less than 2.165,4161., and it continued increasing until in 1848 it amounted to 3.157,2871. He trust give the Right Hon. Gentleman at present at the head of the Admiralty credit for some redactions since that time. Tee estimate for the year ending April 5, 1851, dmiucting 53 9281. for the Arctic Expedition, and 9 7724 for registering seamen, amounted to 5,839,6524 The estimate now before the Committee was 5,727,2591., being a net decrease of 112,395/. But still there was an excess over the seven years from 1832 to 1838, inclusive of 1,252,512/. That excess might be in part 'accounted for by the additional expenditure occasioned by the construction of steam ships-of-war; but be thought a great number of those vessels would eventu ally turn out to be utterly useless. Such constant changes and improvements took place in the construc tion of steam-ships that the probability was, that in the course of five or six years not 10 out of all the steam vessels now iu the navy would be deemed efficient. He considered that this ceuntry ought to maintain such a navy as would be at all times sufficiently strong to repel any attack on the part ef a foreign power; but, unless all the fleets of Europe combined to attack them, their pre sent naval force was sufficiently powerful to defeat may aggression; believing that it was most improbable. if nu t impossible, that such a combination could ever take place his did not see why they should keep up a force equal in strength to that of all the European Powers together. He thought that the estimate for this year, instead of being above 5,700,000/, ought to he reduced to 5,000,0004 if not even below that amount. He considered that they ought entirely to abolish the dockyards at Deptford, Chatham, and Pembroke. The ground occupied by the yard at Deptford would afford the accommodation so much required for the large number of stenm vessels which now entered the port of London. The dockyard at Pembroke had been managed in a most scandalously extravagant manner ; the expense of building ships there had been at least one-laird more than it ought to have been, and the abandonment of that establishment would at once effect a considerable saving of the public money. He knew it was usual for the representatives of the Admiralty to assert that ships built by contract were not efficient, but if that mere so, what was the cause of their inefficiency? It was the constant meddling of the Admiralty with their construction. If the Government ships were built with the skill which had been displayed in the construction of the Cunard line of packets, he believed that they would not only encounter any weather, but that they would require repairs much less frequently than many of the ships now in the Royal Navy. He would ;suggest, in addition, that the port of Sheerness should be main tained as a naval station merely for repairing vessela H i s difficulty with. re"crd to the proposed vote for 39,000 men was this, that he heel no confidence that the House would pass the income-tax in its present shape, or that they would sanction that tax at all, and the financial affairs of the country w e re involved in so much diffi culty tiled, he hesitated to a ssent to any v ote of the pub lic money until he knew how the revenue was to be ob tained. He looked forward to as diminished expenditure as a means of reducing taxation, and he thought they might safely reduce) the number of men voted for the service(); the navy to something nearer the number mein tained when the Right Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) seas First Lord of the Admit alty, with a view to cffceiing a further reduction next year. For the time was come when they must seriously examine the whole of their finances. In the present age of progress, wit h steam-preeses, steam-railroads, anti steam-shipe, and the consequently increased intercourse with all parts of t he go on mu c h l onger w i t h ou t taking of our whole s y s t em o f t a xation. a world, co nw t r h e e h y e ncyvt: viewttot It was with such a conviction on his mind that he found himself unable to vote for so large a number as 39,000 men for the naval service. He came to this conclusion with great reluctance, and not from the least desire to offer a factious opposition to the First Lord of the Ad miralty-, or any other member of the Government; but in acting as he was nbout to do, he felt he was only doing his duty to his constituents a n d to the whole of her Maj esty's tax-paying subjects.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. COBDEN said that it the Committee agreed to vote the number or men now proposed for the navy, it would be in vain to think of materially reducing the amount of the income-tax. He lied a very strong i re _ prestion, founded upon experience in Committees which had considered the army end ordnance estimater, an opinion which every day's experience had confirmed, end 'Which that evening's diseuesion had not shaken, that there was a delusion both in the country and thu House, on the part of those who thought that any vonsiderable saving could he effected in the expenditure for the navy without a reduction in the ameunt of the force main teined. If they went back to 1335, and came down to the present time, marking the reductions which had been made in the. army, the navy, or the ordnance, or in all combined, they a ould see that the number of men vettd had generally afforded a fair test or index of the remount of money spent. He did not say there might not be t,outo disturbieg causes, arising, for instanee, from an exsraordinary expenditure upon steam-ships ; but, as a rule, he maintained that the number of men voted afforded a fair index of the amount of money re quired. The Right ;Honourable Member for Ripen jgme.D Cir4h4Eo)—cf whofm administrative tAlent3 mo - - one had a .higher opinion than he entertained, for he had had the honour of sitting with that Right Hon. Haronet tipOtt the came Cousulatee for three years, and he well knew his mastery of detalle, and the comprehen sive knowledge he displayed—(hear, hear)—had exer cised a most useful sway at the Admiralty from 1830 to 1834, and, applying the test he had mentioned to the reductions made by that Right Hon. Gentleman, it would be found that while he bad reduced the expenditure from about 5,600,009/. to 4,600,000/. there had been in the four pars a reduction in the number of men from 32,000 to 26,000, so that the percentage reduction en of the number of men was nearly as l ar g e as the perctage reduction of money. He thought, then, it was a delu sion to suppose fleet there would be any large reduction in the expenditure for our armaments unless by a reduc tion of force. It was not difficult to account for the reason of this. In dealing with the navy they de slt with the largest manufacturing concern in this king dom, or perhaps in the world—a concern em ploying upwards of 10,000 persons, many of them skilled artisens. Now, there was a maxim which he thought nobody would dispute—that the worst of all manufacturers was a Government.—(Hear, hear.) Whether a Government undertook to build ships, to manage woeds and forests—(Hear, hear) --or to estab lish national workshops, it was a weteunderstcon maxim that a Government would do any of those things worse than an individual. It was then, he cenceived, quite easy to account for the reason why, in building ships. a Go vernment necessarily wasted a great deal of money. There was a constant outcry against profligate and wasteful expenditure of money in the dockyards, and people jumped at the conclusion that this expenditure would be prevented if the subject was inepsired into. He had been engaged f a whole session upon a Committee for inquiring into the navy estimates; it was more than two y eara since that inquiry was concluded, and if any good was to result from the investigation of the Com mittee they ought to have the benefit now; but yet he found the cry as loud at this day as it ever had been against the waste and extravagance in the dockyards. Now, could he for a moment pretend to say that any thing was done by that Committee which was likely to lead to any considerable change in the mode of conduct ing the business of the dockyards? No; every person connected with the dockyards who was examined before the Committee, protested that everything under his charge was done better than it could be done by private individuals. All the witnesses, whether superintendents of shipyards or manufacturers of gunpowder, laboured to show that their own particular departments were better managed than they could be by private indivi du tls; and it was natural enough that they should enter tain such opinions, because they had not the same means as private individuals of being brought to the knowledge that they were mistaken in their mode or conducting husieess. They had no annual stock-taking—(Hear, hear) —they had no yearly balance-sheet to prepare— (lleer)—but whenever they wanted money they came 0) that House for a couple of millions.—(A laugh.) The consequence wes that they still went on making the same mistakes now that were made ten years ago, and so long as the Government continued to carry on this great manufacturing business they would have the same waste and extravagance that had hitherto existed. Now, entertaining the conviction that they could not correct these evils, which be considered to be inherent in all Government establishments, by merely denouncing extravagance and corruption, he always turned towards the force employed, and inquired whether by any means a reduction of that force could be effected, because if they could make a reduction of 10,000 men, they would reduce just in the same proportion the amount of public money expended, and the per ceutage of waste and loss by mismanagement. Nay, he thought they would even do more, because he believed that a small establishment would be carried on with a less per centage of waste than a large one, inas much as it could be managed by fewer superintendents. If they looked at the dockyards under the present sys tem it would be seen that they were a political institu tion from beginning to end.—(Hear, hear.) There was not an individual connected with the Admiralty—from the First Lord to the lowest labourer—who did not be come more or less a political instrument in the hands of somebody; for either he was looking up to the Secretary of the Admiralty for patronage, or the Secretary kept a watch upon him because he possessed some political in fluence; and, generally speaking, the persons engaged about the public establishments, down to the very lowest shipwrights, were independent of those who ought to have the absolute power of disposing of their services. He (Mr. Cobden) looked, then, to a reduction of force as the means of reducing the expenditure for the navy. Was it necessary, he asked, to keep up at this time a force of 39,000 men? In 1835 they had a force of only 25,000 men; why should they maintain 14,000 additional men now? This was not a motion of the Peace Society for the abolition of the navy, and he hoped it would be dealt with by Hen. Gentlemen opposite as a question of degree. Why should not 25,000 men suffice for the navy now, as they did in 1835? Was this country in any greater political or national danger now than it was at that time? There were in 1835 some very grave national questions unsettled—the question of boundary with the United States of America, a dispute with Russia threatening war, and a misunderstanding with France relative to the affairs of Tahiti and Syria. These questions were now disposed of; there were no dynastic quarrels—no boundary questions pending; and this country was in a position in which no hostilities were to be apprehended. Where, then, was the neces sity for keeping up the large amount of force now pro posed? He knew on!y two reasons why they should keep a navy at all; one was that, as a maritime nation, they had a large amount of merchant shipping to pro tect, mid the other, that a navy was necessary to de fend their coasts from enemies. He did not suppose they kept up a navy to commit aggressions upon other :antes, but it was to protect their commerce and their shores. Now, he thought very exagge• rated notions prevailed as to the use and occasion of their navy for the protection of British com merce. Generally speaking, this country had commer cial treaties with, or sent ambassador); to, every state with which its people engaged in commercial transac- Sloes. Our greatest exports were to the Halted States, and it was a subject of remark in their newspapers it ever they saw an English ship of war in any of their harbours. We carried on a very large portion of our trade with the continent of Europe, and we had consuls everywhere; our merchants were in no danger of having their ships seized or their rights violated. It was not the ordinary state of things to which we were subject, and therefore our commerce, generally, did not require a large number of ships of war in its train. He (Mr. Cobden) did not meets to say that small ships were not required as a police in time of peace. In that respect we might take a lesson from the United States; they had not a line-of-battle ship in commission—the last was withdrawn from the Pacific about a twelvemonth ago. The great bulk of their vessels were of 10-guns and 16- guns, and they ware strictly used as a police force.— (Hear ' hear.) True, England had relations which, for tunately for them, the United States had not. But, with regard to the necessity of a fleet or political ohj cts, to welds what country did we generally look fur a justifica tion or incentive for our large armaments? The Right Hon. Gentleraau had invoked the example of France; now, was it not singular that at the very time we were talking here in this strain France was quoting our example as a justification for her keeping up her navy? Some gtntlenaen might have observed the argument to that effect in the Ordre of the 19th of last month. [The Hon. Member read the passage, which referred to the comparative amount of the screw power possessed by the two countries.] Statements had been made that even ing respecting the preparations at Cherbourg. Tao Times correspondent . at Paris, in his communica tion published in that paper of the 6th inst., said that a credit for the continuance of the works at Cherbourg was defended on the ground of those which we were car rying on upon the opposite coast; and Admiral Cecille pointed out the advantage. of placing Cherbourg beyond the danger of an attack from an enemy. He (Mr Cobden) had quoted in that House before from speeches of Thiers, Lamartine, and other leading men In the French Assembly, showing that they measured their navy by the standard of England; they only aimed at two-thirds of our force; hut, if we augmented our navy, they were obliged, to keep themselves in some thing like that relative position.—(Hear, hear.) Now, should we not consider the consequences upon the finances of France ? The most able man in France found it hard to foresee how that country was to emerge from its financial difficulties ; they felt that while strengthening their navy and fortifying their coast, they were adding to that danger and difficulty within, from which the wisest men saw no way of escape. Was it well in us to imitate France, with the prospect of si miler results?—(l.lear, hear.) When we saw France huilding ships and fortifying her c.ntsts merely because we were doing the like, and when we persevered in doing it merely because France was doing the same, did it not strike one as possible that some arrangement or under standing might be come to between the two countries— (Ll .ar)—by which this supreme folly might be abated? —(Hear, hear.) It was child's play—a game at " beggar my neighbour"—(lleur, hear)—without the slightest occasion to justify. it. H 9 (Mr. Cobden) hoped the 'House wouid allow him on a futtao occasion to submit a motion for asking her Mejesty to direct her Minister to present proposal with a view to prevent a continuance of this system, and, if possible, to enter upon a course of mu tual reductions. England, of all countries, was in a po sition to make such an advance without the possibility of being misunderstoed: France herself did not deny our immense superiority as a maritime nation; and it was inconsistent with the advanced civilization of this age that two great nations - professing amity should be arming to the teeth, as if 'each expected tho other to spring upon it like a wild beast.—(Hear.) He could not think it impoesible that such a system might be put an end to, if diplomacy brought its energies to the task. Diplomacy was not very much at a premium in the world at present, but if it could accomplish such an object it would do much to retrieve its reputation.—(Hear.) Let Honourable Members not forget that they were now asked to vote 5,700,0001, and that there would be 800,0001. to follow for the packet service, which must be regarded as strictly coming under the denomination of " naval serviees." The vessels we had engaged to carry our nntilt—Ounard's, for instance—were about the most formidable war steamers : there were no steam-vessels behieging to any foreign navy equal to them. The navy ettiteette, therefore, really emounted to 6,500,000/., as the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated its his Budget. Only 19,500,0091, cf the expenditure came before the House at. all to he voted in the annual estimates, end 15,500,0001. of that sum went for the armaments— Army, Navy, and ordnance; and if above a quarter of the - whole was now to be voted without any reduction what,ver, how could gentlemen by-arid-by, without in consietsucy, vote for a reduction of taxation ?—(Hear.) The project of souse gentlemen, to tie:aster their taxa tion to other shoulders, war impracticable ; ther o w as nobody in the country that would bear more taxation, especially to relieve somebody else.—(hear, hear.) He saw no way of relief but in a reduction of our armed force; and he thought we might 66fely return to 9 . forc e 30,000 .140,„„rabar,) terrnpt our trade. Now, I beg the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding to observe, that injurious as those operations might be—hurtful as they might be to our trade, and our wealth, and our resources in former times—the late change that we have made in respect to the corn-laws makes such operations far more injurious than they would otherwise be. For the last two or three years we have had eight or nine million quarters of grain imported into this country.—(lronical cheers from the Protectionists.) Now, think what a loss it would be to oiunnttohfe e p ig ra h c t tic o e r o n f in h e av m in i g ni a on pa g r u t a o r! our f t his food, coun t r t y o e t ho being a m ters coming from foreign countries, if, in the event of a war, we bud no naval force, and were unable to obtain that food.—(Rene wed cheers from the Protectionists.) I am, therefore, of opinion that necessary as it was to have a naval force to protect our trade in all former wars, that a nation which, like ours, allows a free importation of grain, and which is now in the habit (and it is a practice which may continue) of importing eight or nine million quarters of grain annually, is still mere under the neces sity of having a naval force than a nation which does not derive so large a quantity of food from foreign coun tries. It i 3 obvious that the more our trade is extended the more we require the naval force in case of war to be extended also. The Hon. Gentleman alludes to the ar maments made by France, and says that it is not neces sary for us to keep up a larger force than France, and that we might have an agreement with them by which this force might be mutually reduced. But we have besides the necessity of defending; our own coasts. We have the necessity of defending our trade, not with nations in the state of the United States of Ame rica, with which our J commerce may t e carried on with out risk of interruption, but with many y small States, borne of which are very imperfectly civilised, and others of which are very little in the habit of keeping good faith with regard to the property of our merchants that reside in their territory. Therefore France is not at alt under the necessity of keeping up her naval force to the amount that w e are obliged to keep ours up. I think that we are obliged to keep Up a naval force for that purpose, besides the purposes of defence which we are obliged to look to. I own, therefore, that I cannot think that the proposal to keep up 3 9,000 men in the present year is at all excessive. And with regard to the general defence, let me observe that in the year 1845, when, to all appearance , we were on the most friendly terms with France, there arose a cause of difference, upon which the sense of honour an d the susceptibly of the two nations were very much excited, and it re quired the moderation shown in the greatest degree by both the Governments of France and England to prevent hostilities breaking out on that ocealion. But the result was that the Government of this country, on considering our means of defence, thought wn were very ill prepared for those hostilities, and immediately a very large in crease was made in the naval expenditure of this country, and the expenditure, which had been 6,466.0001. with the packet service, was raised immediately to 7,344,0001. Next year, in 184647, it was 7,920,0001. The expense of last year was very much below that—it was 6 362,000/., being rather more than a million less than the expense in 1845. Now if that was the ease — if the Government of 1845 thought we were in consider able danger at that time, and thus increased the expen diture, end we have now reduced the expenditure by tee amount of a million—l think it is some symptom that it is not a very extravagant expenditure which we now propose. The Hon. Member for .2elontrose has intro• duced the question of the African squadron. I shall not go into a general ,liscuesion of that subject; but this I must say, that I think this House has reason to be proud of the vote to which they came last year, that that squadron should not be abandoned. It was then represented to them that our efforts were entit ely useless, that the slave trade was increasing, that it was quite impossible that we should be able effectually to prevent it, and many other things; that vessels were built that would carry on the slave trade so successfully thet the efforts of our cruisers would ' be defeated. Welt the House approved of the continuance of THE SUN, LONDON ; TUESDAY EVENING, IN/ARCH 11, 1851. that squadron, and among other consequences of that vote, the Brazilian Government, seeing that the Parliament and the Government of this country were in earnest, have passed laws to prevent the slave-trade, and the immediate consequence was that the steamers held by slave-dealers in Brazil were immediately sold, lem glad to say at a very great loss, and many of the slave dealers were ruined. Tho captures became more nume rous, and in an acconnt which arrived within these two days from the Brazilian Consul at Rio Janeiro, there is this passage—" I have also enclosed a return showing the number of slaves landed on a certain portion of this coast during the six months ending December 31, 1850, showing that in the letter half of the year 1850 the total number of slaves landed on this extent of coast was 5,103; while the number during the latter six months of the three years 1847, 1848, and 1819 averages upwards of 24,000." So that the last year was very little more than one•fifth of the average of those landed in the cor responding period of the three preceding years. Now, I say this circumstance is encouraging to the Govern : ment , of this country to proceed in this great work. It is one in which we have been many years engaged, and every one, I think, must admit that it would cover us with shame and humiliation if we had left that great work unfinished, and allowed the slave trade to begin again and to be carried on to the extent which it was before. Great exaggerations are made with respect to the cost of this slave squadron. I think that it cannot be denied that oven if you abandoned the attempt to put down the slave trade, you must keep a squadron on the coast of Africa at those parts where the slave trade does not exist; you cannot allow your legitimate trade to be destroyed by pirates, and I doubt much whether you would find that you had saved more than 200,0001. or 250,0001. per annum, making the most , retrenchment which you could, and allowing the slave trade to go on. Now, if that is the case, as I believe it is, seeing that we nave made in the last year more pro gress than we had done for many years before—seeing that there is a prospect on the coast of Brazil of putting an end to that trade, and if it is put an end to on the coast of Brazil, there will then be only Cuba left—seeing this prospect before us, I trust that whatever other re trenchment this House may make, they will not make a retrenchment of that part of our naval force which is required for the suppression, and, I hope, the final ex tinction of the slave trade.—(Hear, hear.) That, I think, would be a glory to this country, that having, by its own efforts, put an end to the slave trade and slavery in our dominions, and having by its example and effects on all nations, put an end to the slave trade cf many other countries, that we should finally put an end to the slave trade in Brazil and Cuba, and thereby have the satisfaction of saying that England had been the cause of the slave trade being abolished all over the world. Hr. M. GIBSON dissented from the argument used by the Noble Lord to the effect that circumstances arising out of the policy of free trade rendered it ne cessary to keep a large naval force for the protection of commerce. The Noble Lord represented that wo were dependent on foreign countries far supplies of grain; and therefore it was unnecessary to pause before the pro posal of a reduction in the naval force was entertained.— (Hear, hear.) On that question he was entirely at issue with the Noble Lord. He was of opinion, in the first place, that the free-trade policy having increased our commercial intercourse with other nations had increased our shipping and the number of our sailors, and had made the facilities for manning our fleet greater in a case of sudden emergency. The free-trade policy further in troduced a tie of mutual interest among nations, which was the strongest guarantee for the maintenance of peace. Instead of making defences more necessary, it rendered them less so. The Noble Lord represented the Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, and others had done the same elsewhere, as one who proposed to do away with the navy. The question was one of degree. What force was it necessary to maintain at present, having regard to the welfare and safety of the country? It was not fair to represent those who thought a less amount than the Government proposed as indifferent to the existence of any naval sntA fo wteed r eop c mes e s . i sriatyTl taken y he Noble Lord spoke of steamers; bat i t w as always understood that it required fewer men to man steamers than sailing ships. One of the Lords of the t bays hek the keeping h e p e c wasionugl Braziliandfit employed informed, o nf or u m t e Governmentdt 100 he hadla steamersr gfoer stated ntu h for me that b war sup erin of months t o purposes. If so, the argument founded on the alleged men proposed in the vot e wa s considerably weakened. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had referred to the pression of the slave trade. There was an anti-slave trade party in Brazil; and the effect of British inter ference, menace, and vexatious irritation had been to postpone till the present time the successful, operations of that anti-slave party; the sense of national inde pendence being touched by the attempt to force, as it were, at the cannon's mouth, the Brazilian Govern ment to abolish the slave trade. Mr. CARDWELL observed, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had raised a point which had often been raised in that House, but on which his argument would appsar on reflection to be more plausible than sound. The Right Hon. Gentleman attributed the new exertions made by the Brazilian Government to a change in the disposition of the Brazilian people, consequent on the removal of the irritation which he described as being oc casioned by the policy of this country. What were the facts of the ease?—(Hear, hear.) In former times we had been feeble in our efforts, and the Brazilians feeble and inactite. Last session a motion, based on the report of a Committee, was brought forward in that House, and a strenuous eff)rt made to induce it to reverse its policy. The House took a far wiser and more enlightened view. —(Hear, hear.) It solemnly affirmed that policy. And what occurred in Brazil? A degree of viper and ac tivity was imparted to the operations of the Bridsh consul at the Court of Br, z'l such as had not occurred before. What took plats ? A vessel of her Majesty, acting not without an understanding with the Brazilian Government, took possession of Brazilian vessels en gaged in the slave trade on the coast of Brazil. The guns of a Brazilian fort were brought to bear on the British vessel. The fort was bombarded, and the guns silt need. What next occurred ? The Brazilian Minister for Foreign Affairs being questioned in the Chamber of Deputies, used these words—he quoted from memory, but there were Hon. Members present who could correct him if necessary— " With respect to the insult offered to our country, we will endeavour to give the best account. But let me tell you this, if you believe you can succeed in maintaining the slave trade, when a country like Great Britain has solemnly recorded her determination to prevent it, you are greatly mistaken."—(Hear, hear.) He had read in the Times newspaper that the declaration of the Foreign Minister of Brezil was received with applause. As the Noble Lord the First Minister had stated. the measures for the suppression of the slave trade had been so suc cessful on the coast of Brazil that, although slaves had been imported, their number for the last six months of 1850 was not a filth of the average for the corresponding months of the three years preceding. He (Mr. Cardwell) entirely concurred in the geeerous sentiments expressed by the Noble Lord—(Bear, hear)--and, having en ' gaged in the cause, lie most earnestly hoped, n hen there was so great a prospect of success, that this country would not cease from using its best efforts to suppress the slave trade.—(Hear, hear.) Admiral BERKELEY stated that the Right Hon. Member for Manchester, in (rioting an observation at supplied a text in e eY the continuance of the larger ftbaroivdbouyutroe at tributed fm t o teinl h e. i m ai ( ng A u dmbmiesnirtael for vßridence he had said that ho thought 100 steamers, fitted as auxiliaries in time of war might be taken from the merchant service; but he had not said ho could find men to send those vessels to sea with. But the present number of men in the navy would form the nucleus of a larger force, consisting of men ac customed to guns; it was necessary they should be so in the state of gunnery in every nation. Formerly a ship might be manned with the best seamen going; but a ship could no longer be manned with those men unless they had been trained to the perfect knowledge of gun nery which was taught now. A body of seamen gunners would beat double their number of seamen unacquainted with gunnery as practised in modern times. Mr. PLUMPTRE thought that, if he followed the example of the Hon, Member for Montrose, he should only be illustrating the proverh," Penny wise and pound foolish." Under the circumstances of the times he should support the vote. Mr. S. CRAWFORD intimated that he should sup• port the amendment of the Hun. Member for Montrose, having been. sent to that House to promote the princi ples which used to be those of the Whig party, namely, "Peace, retrenchment, and reform." Colonel THOMPSON was obliged, on the ground just stated, to give his vote with the Hon. Member for Montrose, but protested against being seduced by any of the reasons that lion. Gentleman bad offered in sup port of the amendment.—(Hear, and a laugh.) With regard to the income-tax, ,which had been referred to, an opinion was becoming prevalent that it was a very good tax, and that it should be rendered eternal. Mr. HUME thought that the lion. and Gallant Colo nel must have been asleep while he (Mr. Hume) was speaking—(A laugh)—for he had not mentioned the in come•tax once during that evening. Colonel THOMPSON—Oh, yes, you did. Mr. HUME—No, I did not. The Hon. and Gallant Colonel has said that he is not induced to vote for my motion by the arguments I advanced iu support of it; but he has forgotten to tell us what are his own reasons for voting for it.—(Laughter.) The Committee divided , and th e numbers were— 'For Mr. num.'s. amendment ... 61 Against it ... ..• ... 169 Majority ... --108 The original motion was then agreed to, as were the following votes:- 1,435,7331., for the wages of seamen and marines. 500,6321., fur victuals for seamen and marines. It was then proposed that 138,625/. should be granted to defray the expense of the Admiralty.; Colonel SIBTHORP said, that although the Whigs always recommended economy when out of office, they never practised it when iu. The Lords of the Admiralty were generally of little use. For his part he believed that some of the present Lords did not know e 74 from a barge, and when his Right Honourable wad respected relative (the Chancellor of she Exchequer) was ;ireretary to the Ansernralty he was sick in a punt le the Thames. He proposed to reduce tiro salary of the First Lord of the Admiralty from 4 5001. to 3,500/., in come quenco of the reduction whico had takes place in fish, meat, and all the other free-trade advantages which he possessed.—(Leughter.) lie proposed to strike off the salaries of the two lay Lords alteeelly'r , thus saving other 2,0001. inc salary of the First St tectritile tery he would reduce from 2.0001 to 1,5001., that o Second Sc cretery trolls 1.500/. to 1.000/., and tha'.tof t e reduction of ‘1,600/. lii' ninetOnent. theret , r:, we's solicitor irons 1,600/. to 1,000/.; that the vote be reduced from 138,625/. to 1e4,025/. He would divide the House upon it if fouud a Le• conder. reeking eltege.ber lMr. WILLIAMS said he found that the present vole wee 11,8001. more pax the correspondieg vote of 1845, while the number of men was about the same. This re- Somerset-house by the surveyors of the Admiralty would quired explanation. soon be required by the Board of Excise, and, if his Sir F. BARING repeated the statement he made in Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) his opening speech, that a considerable additional cx- were prepared to give the Admiralty a house nearer pense had arisen from the gradual increase of the sa- Whitehall, be should be quite ready to transfer the Ad laries from long service. Last year, however, there was a miralty surveyors to it without any loss of time. diminution of 1.1001. a year from the abolition of an The Committee then divided, when there appeared— office. Part of the increase since 1844-45 was owing For the vote .. ... ... ... 193 to the additional officers required for the steam depart- For Colonel Sibthorp's amendment ... 34 men t.—(Hear, hear.) Majority ... ... ~, —159 Mr. FITZROY was sorry the Hon. and Gallant The original motion was then agreed to. Member (Colonel Sibthorp) had proposed so large a re- On our readmission, duction in the vote, because if he persevered in the amend- Colonel SIBTHORP was addressing the Committee. ment, it would place him in this unpleasant position, He said, that in proposing the amendment just negatived that thinking the reduction beyond what the effieiency of he had performed his duty, addin g , " I h ave l ost a ll con the service wo u ld a d m it of, he could not corscientiously fidence in them; "—referring, as we understood, to the support it ; whil e b e i ng of opinion, on the other hand, gentlemen who usually sit en the benches below him.— that a certain reduction was practicable, he could not (Cheers and laughter on the Ministerial side.) Colonel support the proposition of the Government. He hoped, Sibthorp then left the Hawes amid load and continued therefore, the Hon. and Gallant Member would modify cheering from the Ministerial party. his amendment, and enable him to vote with him.— On the question, that a sum of 48,6351. be granted for (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Fitzroy) had stated to the Cciih- the expenses of the scientific branch of the naval service, inittee last year, and he still retained the opinion, that Mr. HUME complained of the high price at which there might be a reduction in this vote; and he held this the Nautical Almanack was sold. In his opinion a pub opinion with the greater confidence after reading the Hendon SD important to the safety of life and property evidence given by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Bar- ought to be within the reach of every class. If the price ing) himself before the Committee on Official Salaries, were lowered more money would be made of the work and also the evidence of the Right Hon. Gentleman the —the more they reduced the price the more copies they Member for Ripen. [Hero the Hon. Gentleman quoted would sell. an extract from the evidence of Sir F. Baring with re- Tote agreed to. gard to the duties actually performed by the different The next vote was 134,6991. for the expenses of the Lords of the Admiralty.] He (Mr. Fitzroy) would establishments at home. maintain, without fear of contradiction, that if they corn- Mr. HUME objected to the expenses of Pembroke binedi the departments of the civil lords with the medi- dockyard. cal and victualling department, one man could perform Sir F. T. BARING contended for the great importance the business of the two departments quite satisfactorily, of that establishment , at the sacrifice of one or two hours every day.: Mr. HUME considered it to be inordinately ex- Mr. HENLEY said, that the Hon. Gentleman who pensive. had just spoken had let out some secrets respecting the Vote agreed to, Admiralty. If they went on the Committee might get The next was 23,6541. for the naval establishments some more information.—(A laugh.) Without pretend abroad.—Agreed tn. ing to the accuracy of knowledge of the Hors. Gentle- On the vote of 676,4161. for wages to artificers, &c., men (Mr. Fitzroy), he thought it quite clear that for the employed in the establishment at home, last ten years the vote of the Admiralty establishment Mr. HUME said that the American Government had had been gradually increasing. In 1841.42 it was five vessels on the stocks, and they had stopped their 121,8441. It was now 138,625/. He did not think the progress. It appeared to him that in our naval archi- Bight. Hon. Gentleman had given a satisfactory expla- tecture we were certainly building to waste. England nation why it had crept up—the number of men being now had a great many vessels that never yet had been quite as great, if not greater, in 1842 than now.—(Hear, at sea, and he contended that with such a store of ships hear.) The increase was not confined to the Admiralty the Government ought to cease building. With 07 yes establishment. It was the same in the dockyards, the sets in course of building it did appear to him that vote for which, in 1842, was 122,0001. It was now we might now very well stop. .He regretted to ob nearly 135,0001. There seemed a tendency to get back serve that a great number of vessels belonging to the to that state of things that the Right Hon. Gentleman navy had recently been broken up. Since the month the Member for Ripon set right in 1835-36. He (Mr. of Merck, 1828, we had built not fewer than 264 Henley) was surprised to find a person like the Hon ships. Within a comparatively short period we had Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) state that it expended for purposes of this kind as much as was impossible to make any reduction of the expense in :5,190,000e, and on dockyards 805,0001., all this involv the details of management without reducing the number ing a great waste of timber and wages, and a pulling of of men, and that, too, in the face of, and immediately chips to pieces far no useful purpose; they surely ought following, the statement of the First Lord of the Ad- not to sanction such wasteful proceedings—such waste miralty that there had been a reduction in two years as the breaking up of 297 ships in the course of the last of 1,500,000/. in the general expenses.—(Hear, hear.) 20 years. On these grounds he proposed to reduce the He (Mr. Henley) confesed that when he found the Hon. amount of the vote from 676,4161. to 400,0001. Member for Montrose proposing to strike off nearly a Admiral BERKELEY observed, that though the fourth part of the whole efficient force, and when he did statement respecting those ships made a great display not succeed, throwing the cards up, .he was induced to on paper, the ships would not make a very good show at suspect he was not sincere in proposing it with any hope sea, and no nation had vessels of so small a size as Eng of carrying it.—(llear, hear.) It seemed to him very land. If we brought 50 sail of the line into a general like throwing out a tub to the whale, and saying, "See action he feared that we should very soon have to re what great reductions we propose."—(Hear, hear.) place them. In consequence of our having been at pekoe Mr. COBDEN thought it would be in the recollection so long there were no doubt many ships that had never of the Committee, that what he had said was not that it been at sea, but that was no reason why they should be was impossible to make any reductions, but that it was relied upon, especially if they were not in a fit state. It impossible to make any material reduction of ex- should be remembered that if they were building ships pense without a reduction of the forces.—(Hear, hear.) they were not launching them; they kept them on the The Hon. Gentleman had said that there bad been a re- slips, and it was hardly necessary for him to point out duction of upwards of a million without a reduction of tune disadvantage of too much haste in building. If a the force; but the fact was that in 1848 there was a re- ship was run up in a hurry, or upon an emergeecy, she duction of from 4,000 to 5,000 men. He (Mr. Cobden) very soon rotted, and was found little worth at sea. stated that there might be occasioeally disturbing causes, The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume) seemed to such as building steam-boats or the like; but if the Hon. think that a good deal would be saved by giving up Gentleman would go through the Navy, Ordnance, and building for themselves, and getting ships built in mer- Army estimates, for a series of 20 years, he would find chants' yards. In order to show the fallacy of this, his statement correct, that, taking a series of years, the he would refer to two 72-ships of the first-class, number of men was an accurate test of the amount of both still extant. One of these, the Blenheim, built money expended. He thought, too, that upon reflection in a Government yard in 1813, cost 59,249 L; and the the Honourable Gentleman would recall the imputation other, the Benbow, built in a merchants' yard, cost of insincerity which he, had ventured, in a moment 68 ; 070/. The Benbow was rottenend condemned, while the of forgetfulness, to make against the Hon. Member for Blenheim had had a screw put into her, and was still a Montrose.—(Hear, hear.) That Hon. Gentleman had, good and efficient ship—(Hear, hear.) A reference to to his knowledge, often proposed similar motions during other ships would show the same result. As to the num the last ten years; and, although he might not have sic ber of artificers employed, the returns before the House ceeded in carrying them at the time, it had generally would show that much more work bad been done by happened that in the course of a few years what he pro- fewer hands during the last two years than was done be posed was carried into effect.—(Hear, hear.) And he fore that time. He should be sorry to see building in (Mr. Cobden) would venture to predict that the reduc- our own yards given up. One result of such a step would tion his Hon. Friend had proposed would be carried out be that it would become absolutely necessary to hire men before long, and probably with the aid of the Hon. Mem- when ships came in for repair, and that at an increase of bar for Oxfordshire.—(Hear, hear.) expense. Mr. HUME rebutted the charge of insincerity, and Sir G. PECHELL said there were great complaints as said that the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire and his to the unnecessary work carried on in the building friends,: who were constantly crying out for a reduction yards, and he was anxious to see a remedy for that evil. of taxation, and yet when they had an opportunity of As a specimen of the mode of doing business in the docks lessening the expenditure did not embrace it, gave a he might refer to the case of the Tremendous. Some pretty strong proof that they were not sincere. —(Hear, four or five years ago she was condemned as rotten, and hear.) And, he would tell the Honourable Gentlemen, was about to be broken up. Having been brought into moreover, that these who voted for large establishments Chatham she was, somehow or other, saved from destruc and yet demanded a reduction of the taxation by which tion; she was thins razed and sent out, and came back those establishments were supported—in other words, under a new name—the Eagle, he believed—being then those who refused to diminish the expenditure before considered a very fine vessel.—(Hear, bear.) reducing the taxation—did not, in his opinion, adopt Mr. PLUMPTRE askal if there had been any ro a very honest course.—(Cheers, and hear, hear.) He duction of the wages of artificers? The agriculturists begged to tell those Hon. Gentlemen, aleo, that when had reduced the weg,s of their labourers at least one they considered the situation in which they were placed sixth. in conm-quence ot the tekluction which bad taken place Admiral BERKELEY could only say in reply that in the price of the produce of the soil, they would pro- the wages of artificers were regulated by those given in bably find it their interest; before long to join him in re- merchant builders' yards. It was indeed fcuod that ducieg the expenditure of the country. shipwrights and artisans generally- were not to be had at 21 , -. S. CRA WFORD said, that if the Honourable wages se low es fortn , rly.—(fleur, hoar.) and Gallant Officer went to a division he would sup- Mr. M'GREGOR did not see whet necessity there port him. could he for such an amount of naval force as was con- Mr. HENLEY explained that his observations with teriffed fw. Almost every nation on the continent, ex regard to what had tall -n from the Hon. Member for cept Pretsio, Naples, Denmark, and 13 leute, was in the West Riding had reference to what that lion. Get.- a. state b edering on bankrupte) ; and Wilfi4 way the tleman statA two years ago, and rot to what was the naval strength of Russia? It was not mere than equal number of men in the navy in the year 1848. With to the chips of two of our most eminent shipping respect to the Hon. Member for Montrose, he (Mr. firms. Instead of expending such large sums on our Henley) begged to say, that he had no intention of naval establishments, he would rather see them reduced, accusing the Hon. Gentleman of a want of sincerity, and relict given to the public, the agricultural interest What he intended to say was, that the Hon. Gentle- included, by a reduction of taxation. man could have no expectation of carrying his motion. Mr. HUME cited the report of the Committee up Mr. HUME— Indeed I had.—(Cheers and laughter.) stairs, to show that the cost of building ships in the It lion. Gentlemen had fulfilled their pledges I have no dockyards was 221. per ton, without in eluding one shit doubt I should have succeeded., ling for the dockyards themselves ; while, for vessels Colonel SIBTHURP observed that the Hon. Member built in private %. arch., the cost. was 16. 14s. 2d. per ton. for Lewes (Mr. Fitzroy), having himself been a Lord of !tin COBDEN remembered that when Sir H. Ward the Admiralty, had admitted that a reduction of one lord was excusing the high rate of the estimates in his scheme, was necessary; but he (Colonel Sibthorp) went further, he had told them they would not have so much expense and considered that in these days of economy and die- for sailing ships in future; and really with seventy tress they might with strict propriety be reduced two. sailing ships of the line, and such a fleet of steam , rs as Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND said the motion of the we possesst d, to go en building more vessels was mon- Gallant Officer applied only to one service, whereas it strous. He had heard it said that in the next war the ought to be applied to all the different brunches or the contest would he wholly carried on by steamers. It so, service, Neu, Army, and ()recency. The Hon. Member why go on building more sailing, ships ? From the evi for the West Riding had referred them back to the year deuce taken before the Committee it appeared that :chile 183 S as astanderd, but the propriety of the force to be there were fewer ships of dear in the world now teen in maintained was not a question of chronology but of ex- the year 1792, we had double the naval fore:; which we pedieecy. There was no abstract amount of force that po.rsed it. that yeti, d could be determined upon. The amount to be kept ep Admiral BERKELEY observed, that when they knew depended upon wh.it acre the proba'eiliti , s of a hostile that otter countries et ere buileiug I:Km-of-battle ships, fore) c wing against us. Did any gentlemen in sober not as feime;ly, bat furnished with serew-propellers, sadness believe that there was the sauce chance of a they ought not to be unprepared. greater force ceming against us now than in the years Mr. S. HERBERT said, that so far from our having 1835 and 1838? There were certain portions of more line-ot• battle ships now than in the year 1792, the the estimates which seemed to him to be very facts were the other way; while, with respect so the cost, slightly passed over, but which in his (,pinion ought to they would find, if they divided the whole amount by the be explained. lie referred to certain details such as oc- number of men, the result would give for the year 1792 curred in page 12. After putting the two assistantesur- about 350/. per man, while for the present year it would veyors at 800/. per annum each, there came these items: give about 3601. per man. As to the cost ofships building, —Four draughtsmen to the surveyor; one first-clues, the question was not whether you would get a vessel from 350/. to 550/.; one second class, from 250/. to 3501 ; built cheaper in the mtrehant's yard, but elieteer the and two third-class, from 150/ to 250/. Then, and soon vessel so built would be more durable than a vessel built after, there came, first draughtsman, 250/.; second ditto, in the dockyard. Experience shooed that it would; for 1501.; then, first writer and calculator, 1501.; second they had net the same cle ek relative to the materials he i h n r, a d ditto, 801.; then, assistant-engineer, 5001.; after that, di- private yard as they had in a dockyard, l agora l built t rector of engineering and architectural work:, 1,000/. ; their timber lying for three years. be th n a. e th om e p v a e r s, i s n e g t s t b h:e . , (. ' then, chief assistant to the director of works, draughts- of ships, it should be realm ed d man to the director of works, and clerk and draughtsman dockyards were large men-of-war, ' Mist those built in to the director of works. Now the whole of these offices private yards were merchant . ships, ly w heel, being smaller, sounded very queer, and concerning which the House were not of course so costly. With reference to the opinion ought to 'receive some explanation. Then, there was that in future wars the contest would . be earned on solely another item, not only applicable to the service of the b y steamers—while:that was the belief of some, it was on Minh ally, but applicable to all the public departments, the other hand, held byl equally competent judges that the and that was "Public Buildings and Repair s ." Ho be- steamers, from the el . ICacy of their machinery, an l d the . lieved the largest and most extravagant exp enditure on facility of damagingd their hulls, would be so comp etely account of these items came under the dir ection of the hors de combat by the injuries sustained in action that increase the Woods and Forests. These charges also req uired ex- the y would never he, able to re-engage. He did not, h ow planation. ever, mean to sa y that it was necessary to . Sir F. BARING sal3, that with regard to the details number of our ships; but he thought it a. wise which had been referred to, those of them which had introduce the use of the screw•propcncrst u 1e et been introduced since 1845 or 1846, he ought eot to be ships generally. screw.proellers were to called upon to explain, except as now holding the office Mr. COBDEN—As the geaen thoubuilding gt ht i t ii a u e . c . o b n f -. of First Lord of the Admiralty. The principal part of supersede the other cla t ss th o e f ir sh g i o p i s h , the increased expense of the establishment had, as he elusive argument agains had already explained, arisen from the creation of the battle ships. asked on what principle they calcu steam navy. With reference to the particular items Mr. HENLEY enses— w hat they allowed for plant, what mentioned by the Hon. Member for Surr e y in regard to bated their exp engineering architectural works, and other works, he for machinery? COBDEN said be thought he could answer that ,IlVivrallefa'.lcuTl They had no doubt that the persons appointed to those various departments were required to superintend and cheek the Mr: unction, as be bad frequently asked it contended that ecgotircunted their plant aud machinery as nothing in their y great expense of the works going on in the public buildings and the dockyards. For such purposes there everpyethdithiognotfyiththaptraiveartte.. mHaen,utfheecrtuefroerres, must be some establishment. There was one officer Dish tke cost price of an article built in a private or maa f pointed as assistant to each establishment, and, alth e °lt l e g e , w i n g yard ought never to be quoted in that Honsue,acas they were called hard names, yet they were in :I na aHnEaLe account u asked li of twhhee different the comparison was perfectly fallacious. clerks; and he did not think that the sums set eg _ et public would be their names were very large. The Hon. and Gallant ff t e h r e ent sailing qualities the reduction Officer (Colonel Sibthorp) had proposed is of wriEthe f id exhibited by the vessels in the experimental squadron? ge e waS a ra of his (Sir F. Baring's) own salary. d cision of the Sir F. T. BARING said when the report was re he must leave that entirely to the e and , ceived he had no objection • • dy d is cussed , House. The question had been alrea. difficulty be might other- Mr. HUME asked it there was any process made that relieved him from any therefore, abstain in the process of preserving timber? He s hou ld,. wise feel on the subject. With regard to Sir F. T. BARING • upon it. %a- replied that the progress was from any further observationsot the Admiralty , the Hon. naturally a slow One. the number of the Lords f mistaken in suppoeiug that Mr. HENLEY did not doubt that the Hon. Member and Gallant Gentleman was he included the First for the W Ridi n gC ob den) •- 13. tate unless eta (Mr. was eight in is s there were two lay lords, . . 1. refers lore on the board. meat, b t h 3 one J unior a _ u e should be glad to have it from authority. Lord. -There was ants Lt tees had dto the cede Mr- HUME would ;end the evidence to the lion. Gen- The lion. Mei:Utter_ for L • , (Sir I.Baring) before the Com- tlereau.—(leaughter.) do given by him mitit"o on this softie,,s— -e , It was true he was asked whe- Mr. HENLEY had great respect bot h for the Hoe. > lit reduction could be made in the number Member fee • West Ride - and the Hen. Member for they he te.oue a - t eee , the boare, and his answer was that he Montrose but he should hise to have Si) answer fruity constituting , Id be very unwise to make any reduction, I , the Right 'II Gently man opposae• theught it wee on. curse wijt bite; seed pietheps owing to his previous exp , ri - Lee Sit F, T. BARING had rut. the r but It it:Wet • , htteu ...Aii..l ' • in ether offiew., that he ino e fesee much mote in the hu- ; 1 e tTp.telteneed the Ron. Geet s eau tt ere siness ~f civil lords than v. - as usually done by the person right. then divided wh. e there holdine the t dice of First Lord; but, as a genera; prin- I rile Committee eiple, he did not think it advisable to cat down the For the amendment. ••• ... G 8 number of junior lords; but Wet the House would act Against , it ... ... ••• ••• 127 unwisely if they were to adopt tfri,r. course intimated by Majority ..• •• • ... —59 the Hon. Gentlemen the Member for Lew es , The vote was ..;;re d to. Mr. HUME ached whellier o ‘vti.r. intended to re- 35,5561. fur wages to tte eieers abroad was also move that portion of the itaittit aity D.Terence,. which agreed to , now occupied rooms at eirre reet-geese either to the Ad - .- ER, ti 'el re-• 1103 , 4 a e !-pEAK -•• • • ct• the eie,,ir, and the r ~HAIR. iniralty t:.,elf or to s,,me uotlVeti • • • lac e t Whit eha ll NAN reported progress and ob' eii, d if - a , i? to sit agate. en p near y 1 VALUATION Ii( EL AND). whole all the lausiness might b e 1130ra conveniently trees acted? lie understood that it would very soon be ebsc- The Valuation (Ireland) Hill was read a second time lately necessar to make the r e moval. pro forma, and oraered to be referred to a Select Coo4* bir. F. BAB y ING se a i t h e rooms no w occupied at mittee, *Au 6 few If otds frec4 Air. GIABLUST.