The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-12 00:00:00

"Digit tire ~;~ Tll~ of any sionate W hes ii Cil- which v, will d here. 1 , pro" CO Having was u" to the Member fight bq e difre- portico tat sun' hew on iodation LONDON, r rir r EpNpiSDA LVENING, FEHR CAR Y 12, tes4s. 'Tenth hour, he should have introduced suggestions, and 2'eeommended measures, that weuld have been so much first mor e in place at the period when railway speculatiens aommenes,d? He agreed with tee Noble Lord that " indeed, be exceedingly ditilett!t to find in that Howe impartial individuels— :Members unconnect, d either directly or indirectly with these scheme s. Ile al.ould like to s , e the subject fuirly investieated, and therefore he had ~ n a termer nieht.a , .ked the Noble Lord !he Chancellor of the Dnehy of Lancaster, how far these the gentl emen—men of character they were—he granted ey were nun of integrity —how tar they were con- I teeted with railways? These gentlemen must found . • • r (pinions on party statements, themselves haeini. no i t .ntreledge of the count r y t h roug h w hi c h t h e pro j ec t e d l ines were i n t en d e d to pass. Ile wou'l ask the Noble anexi w h° had seteg,sted improvements in the system, " himself tens totally f ree f rom p re j u di ce , or from a oti with soma of these projected lines ? For titself with Sibth or p) h e h a d never b e en, ad would not be connected with any railway ; 4 :d for this r e ason, t h at, if ca ll e d upon b y tißouse to sit a a juror on some of these tets, he mi g h t at leas t be an impartial one. His ship had, he (Colonel Sibthorp) believed, corree Fled with a Mr. Hudson, and objected to some line tqko mmende d by that gent l eman , on th e groun d that it I °llid be near his Lordship's residence, Howick Hall, !")tti6haitts,e4 th.erefore en that account, the line, however ~w ea n to..thees ' •ents of the district in other respects, ri eiee SU MISFIik. With t h ese remar k s h e wou ld con auue, but ho 'hoped that the Noble Lord would explain ~ re a_PaS for delaying the suggestions he had been deetit tilut night to make. r " risBORNE said, that the Bill of last session had )1_ to nsiderably modified in its passage through that :,se,aand at last it had been passed by a sort of tacit it - 7 1 7'irr raise between the opposing parties. He thought, 4'efore, that the policy embraced by it ought not e ktee l Y ,to be interfered with, and therefore he could not %zl,) the opinions advanced by his Honourable /l e en " the Member for Greenock upon the subject. te4 ° Die Lord the Member for Sunderland hail given . tkrf description of the difficulties which he said in- Wth r e red wi th thn decisions of the House on the matter Vito t ),PNlcotwa fixes, hut he 'Mr. Gisherne) thought bie t ,„,.l%,_vry facility with which the Noble Lord had host 'em, was a proof that they were not of the ter serious character. The Noble Leered hail spoke n atieL fee lingly ef the ,xpenses incurred by the pro le. uf some of these schemes, h , fore they could be ,01,°.ght before Parliament, and alleged the hardship of 'the t ti r `jeetion by the hoard of Trade—but what was Bide () use to de H. ev .1)111(1 they, in that Muse, de ths3 -11 f Pila . the to-nits of competing lin, s ? How were 4 , 0 4 " Ray -whet railway eommunicetion should or ru g` be given to such or such a place, ee by Abe l , ~,,`1 110: that communication should be made ? of " t i,""gbti depend upon it that the advanteges s- respeeive lit es would he best tested 71 • 1 „ 10 4 " i l ‘ n tni , Sl , ll cw'stit:/t• d as wris the Roam ef , e ` 11 414 . repel to the p I '11:1 Viet ° , 1 7 the _ A,. t f p ,I•lintn••et to she 3 end . site .11 01 , s --r '-4. Cap. 9, h e s h.e i ld, t h Ilf• 1 , 11 iti4t!t . ti , t. 1 11 )0" -e ' read such nit the Ail re/ toii t o , thos , . • , told id those giveby the. suit anent Act . - 9 0 ( t uer)t. Act directed that no rsjle;ty'shOtild . itsti:hed ler t r affi c without at least a niOnth's pi-evieits be e d ing given to the Betted 'frade ; and it ern- Psa• - „''" : the 8.M. , d to susp. ed. in certain ewes, the suet railway. The a mei could also entre., 1- l ooy of rO exeinine the I.:layettes aed carriages. tied a t ne bye-laws of . each company was dlr. ct.d 'to th tt l f l to them for their approval. The Act els.) . directed „ I the Fiord should ham the power of ordering are • the !lea's!. and the rates and charges on each line thie tm - "lmi pow ers o f a somew h a t s i m il a r character, were t c) the Board In the Act of Parliament. he bad gikteect In !he la s t sess io n these pevvers w, re seinels het lava}g , it being_ directed, in the first place, that all 'h''uld ' be submitted to a Cotentin. e the tt rti ," l Trade, who should report to Parliament upon k_,4 4l :4l.4l ,_yeituttehw e h rn o ,, se s reenpmorlitww:as not to be considered final. w aa therefere nothing in the resolution to prevent before the House, whether the e e of the Bead of fradereperted favourably or e did not find anyt hire , - either in the Act of Perlis *tee i n n ''' . could he find that the Railway Committee e _ t ' e llort„; s a ' l 3 . viray authorised v. publish in the Gazette L'qtlee,, e r- or against particular lines of railway. He ta ta t : e ", that the object originally designed by the ap ..sitisithjess of-the Committee was an investigation ar.d .latla fth t4l a of facts.—(Hear, hear.) A committee of '4l eim, s e had come to the conclusion that the decision •: 4 'hiva • Committee of the Board of Trade should 'attltry•lee ,4dice)thie claims of private persons.. Great in t°, tart' resulted from . the proceedings of the Sub ‘lll!lia-e"7.ee. The public had been under the impression tt - 1 1 4 ; - ) 1 • • a e recess that the decisions of the Committee of ee Nts:-;• ' 3l Trade would be supported by the Govern short, the • considered them all but final and ▪ t o li t Le- It was they the Right Hon. Baronet oppo p, iee",,4'spelled the delusion on the first night of the. j in "" •great mischief had previously resulted. which the Committee reported in favour of, 'qilst e Ar shar reatly increased in price, mein Allo t " g e reported against, whatever their tliCiegut he, received a great discouragement from '47 on they of the Board of Trade. It resembled a e e 'lltdi - ss " e turf. There was quite as much speculation, t - itt ik eQc. i red in these respects, that the amount at stake e _ Frio larger, and that the event of the race could not ',o4lwiwanutil it was over, whilst the decisions of the 4 Y' 'Co • known they were 14 1 4 ransittee became before kq'itt s t , --(Hear, hear.) He did not attribute any dis ixibehe,;.,anY Member of that Committee, far from it, ti lit,,7, them to be t een of integrity and honour • ea - s: I thnossible for any man not to see that, in the decisions of the Board of Trade, respect :l4y v ' e or railway, were predicted with a degree of Fer- Zett,. e, ,„rY strange and striking. Where seven or eight pctilLrusted , vith a secret, it was very hard to pre et;rratapat. hit,sviolable privacy which was in this case so °Ottie men lest their memorandum-beols ; 4 0d ;.--" were eenenenicative to their wives; and others qs 41. their I In short, there ;were several t h. 1,„ s ef.p. pr a t*i t f i r wnieh a secret might he divulged in such a, 0 10 e °ti t ail breach ;Ka ji; llllll itte e , of honour or duty on the part Unless there was any great advan ttr.ii arrrlngement as the present, it was not di subject a hotly of men to the odium - end . a d t ^nreh su.-h a situation entailed. it was ~ere ai t i each e'nvine e . public where such temptations I.vhepoPPortnnitles present, d themselves, and ebove , tiqtlte had rran•h wa s et be Vain! , by .I.s 'beam. that tlia' lied b een no fa s- de a 1 eg. The greseest te e 'tot t e , i en thr own upoe the Beard of' Tr.], and he vita'arc e ve that any goer' they could effict would ''anve the er the. di s t rus t th e ir decisionswould in c di,L l tra ti , ' t e te. Again, he did not believe it possible, with I.4vultal,; lnil ('' i nformatio n which the Committees had 1,1 Its VI: t hat t h - opperetunities they had for investga l i n e 'and te t deceie with a full knewledge of the t 4 thf.ir h at they lo o p) I the ir trio' meet, respect. d eoterettle.s at,d justice. How could mdaf railwP •. 1 the respecti ye . met its of 240 projected ire t ldt p in every part of Eneland. I , e , and, and h uts 4 ° he sure they hail maps and ordnatice I' 4 he t , ,Judge from, and the testimony itf witnesses, ti sti k ltie, l w ere these things where the fullest 1 cal. in he e vequi4 te Ile thought some less ohj, c r...l4luutial ' be devised than the present, and ! n °reover that the Committee of the Board pa t ,: I t'ssunn-d to' them-,lves a pewer hich the t ::,Yer intended they should assume. " O RTLEY said he considered that the itzl s t, to 1 ,(: , 1 the B oar d o f T ra d e h a d b een appo i nte d to tta rhainent tl-e merits of rival sch. raps, and %u l: Letie r( tV, ee ditic's would tett condueted in such a mariner th t iqlkl i i m : B :te the confidence of the public, and be of deeirietance to the House. But when they published . Istlteebfic'ha before they were communicated to Perlis 'C' ee n lade l l e e th e grounds upon which they arrived at them tq l ,: t oplai,, - ," ° wo, he thought the public had just cause V' t t - },' Re could not however, approve of' the ite-;lNebri t e Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland. hti"'ea up e o 1 - m rd h . ad admitted the propriety of deciding ea - w Poni o . 1 . 1 , the different schemes, and the impolicy of tb coyl d vtlyer, consideration to another year ; but lei de e i d u , B be done, it the whole: 250 proj,:cts were htil lt°4l , b Y any one tribunal? In his opinion the e i wity qtaver it might be, which was to decide upon 1 1 ;4 1 th e en3_ munieations ought to decide, not merely la. li n Preference of rival schemes, but which was the tin e • N tis h - hot h ° "v the best line as it often happened, e pro e s Ite t e Poseo at all ; it might emurace a por klia f it trth e rteta ; but the present tribunal did not go 11 % 1 ot ti orik t,,an the schemes proposed. Further, he t o th e Government, by any mode of organise je~ as th y .'",",ge of s uc h a multitude of projects, extend- Nt qld • over the wh o l e f ace o f G reat Britain and t4 l 'tole ant ivould be a task which no Government, how lkitlPlrit'tent " s idhou9, could ace( mplish, He felt that fade (I,ed aorganisation and machinery was imperfect, l' WAR I ;; In eIIY would be speedily supplied. e etv I:l4ottaii,;4 jUiyoli,TwOitNh felt assured that the Board of rd's' Pr " rik) adopt any measure by. which to inter -44e1" IA- the large mass of capital now 1, ‘14 _,„ 0/nd „Ivt.eit.road speculations in this country, and the h interference would be, that those sprcus etiejtakit,`,4,...lmroediately transfer their capital to similar atria r 3, i a " lo fereign countries. The laws of' this t ests 4 ll . 4 t, and the to railroads, were so exceedingly ts . ea )dotage to the speculator who in• r ...r capital et lee • I n foreign lines so many, that any in sfiltie.ritaz'siettivt:!heatipteitat ists w . 1d nglish lines that would not be en htd ern resort , on have the effect ef in -4_011,41e iistetw for - eh. n countries.—(Hear.) loel d of th e l.,_"111-1 considerable attention to the vi,nleryt ih aggtirn t e f i al . :_trisi a lni r nt,p h ,e e ii r it.o, l .nn Or c ti un d er l an d ; but he thate. lt schemeshould - tr'e n.i t yer d en t . b; i t e _he n would be ll be recol tlesed ;linp s p ro ' p e oied w ( !uld be employed to survey the 11 ° ; ° he th e ariv , to report upon what they con 'Noe t en to t., their and disadvantages of each a e(it it e t h e ,, tak. l e e f eir report before Parliarnsnt, who tin,. ;Yon matter off their hand., and finally • _. ( 4)e e r e _ ) had resolved co n , lithe was the best plan ; that was one gn 0 9 , Prop. - sal of the Noble Lord was, that. upon a (Truth, line should e t : d 01)7 1 arltate Ne e , thei r entary Committee, having first de 're anA " nod that Committee were to call for th declare in Zchtle b, s e eff ect of favour of the lowest. W hat at „ such >1 curse be ? W he this—it Ntae. le fur " • y ') a certain Company upon mon.,p,a t . y • 44 .ecrtain term of Nit ro _ to e e years. Now, surely the re asel oti tus to warr_"ly..rnbarked in the whole scheme e ached this Ny 0 , 11(1, 4 :1 1 ' t n. t .. lat House in coming to such a Atap pove u tmost meet, be declaring that they had v telitopue4t4etasi:aonobieezta a t' foo l m_seilrow. that t u b ) abt rissu.ihkiciyh l ith t Si ine4ts -were arge of perfection.—(Hear, hear.) ti R e tie _ ‘%,) h aeeen beig m a d, every more is c a ma y e f ; ea% dv a v n 3a d en at ari ears - t one, could not be approved of and ; 11 "' th e 1 0 btA tU4 Qber e,..ntrart tender had been ac _t st a te , of e var _ to hold god for ' ett- , "'tags *- This would bring about a that wvitTedy thisTehveirieore he ecni Seht e 'leabl e to "I would involve the v e e e r n ti o me in n od t i e n t r y! end • maz e. t t/ $46 t° 44 1:113 the''f but the adoption of ono rule, ettes el . ullest and fairest competition, I ' l ' 4. MUM • Y to new oomphaies to corn- Pete f , .,r new lines.—(Hear, hear.) Incited, to impressed was he with the justice and fairness of this plan, that he felt convinced, when the subject came to be fully con sidered by the liou.e, this would be the rule which they would ducide was the best. Be Was also in favour of the Committees on these Bills being limited, my to five; f,:r the fewer their nurni?er were, the better would. they tie enable 1, with , nt much difficulty, to aerie: at a con scientii;us o.ociusinn. Mr. BA NKES—The lion. Member had argued in fa vour of the principle of encouraging competition. Now, he (Mr. Banks) contended that that would not be a be neficial course to adopt, for it had had the effect of checking railway speculation in the county he repre sented. In that county several propositions for different lines of railways had been put forward by distinct and very powerful and wealthy bodies; but there were twenty to one—or, indeed, he might say a much larger propor tion of the inhabitants of that counts in favour of the South-Western Company's line.— ((-tear, hear.) That line was looked upon as one of the highest importance by the inhabitants of the county, because it proposed to pass through a part of the county having at present other railroad, in which the existing roads • - - " n means good. The land through whir },.e reere by no should pass was rich and ft; it was intended it the district had not b,. 1 0, and the inhabitants of moans the necessary faeili•ies of transit, by lend •; le,nd'or water; while, on the other hand, .tie line proposed by the oth e r com p an y p asse d "inrOugh a part of the county where the inhabitants were in the full enjoyment of all those advantages ; and, therefore, the inhabitants of the southwestern district had not only to look forward to gaining all those advan tages, by getting this line of railroad, but also the addi- tiOreal one of a renewal of the traffic between London and Exeter; and furthermore, it was quite clear that this would be the line by which the public would prefer to travel, while without it the people of that part of the county would in fact be to some extent isolated. One other fact in favour of the South-Western line, in prefertnce to that of the Great Western, was, that a distance of about 150 miles woted be saved by it.— (livar,hear) lie had heard it stated that the Board of Trade had decided in favour of the Great Western line, and that they had recommended a combination of the two companies. If that were the fact, the consequence would he that the county. would get the worst coasting liar ; whereas the South-Western line would have been an excellent coasting line, fir it proposed to proceed by Exett r.--(Heat.) He did not :gate this as a fact that had conic within his own knowledge ; but he had been told that such was the case. With regard to the Com mitter divt&ing any 14ormation u: , on the subject before their report was published, he should say he did not think any member of the Committee would do anything of the kind ; but it should be recollected that there wet , many hands t- r..ngh which those reports passed—such as printers art (eh. rs ; and though. he would not say hat the latter were tare capable ..f divulging- that, Ivhiete sit uld not to made pubLc than those in big hr-r station, %et, as the de eisions of - the C..mmatce had to pa, itinAtOi 1111711 . \ Panots. great iniury was the result. Ie wood that it the Gr. at ‘Veste.i. e slit el he amp:. ri in preferenot• to the South-W es b-rn. they c' ti Id do !yoking !mire, and should accept it ; bit. - he did tie latter would nr.t oc het sight Sir 1-{. PEEL did hOpethat tle_Housewould postpone (It'Ultiii , n upon the sub Act for the ewnt. —( Hear. [mar.) 11 , ha:; no doubt but that nom); of th , .-I the lioord of Trade w.-re ',pen to I e f,tult with, - arid th :t good and ..ufficient .:rounds could he sr , ‘ , ed for don g so—(!lear, hear)—but it wits utterly . impossi• le, he conceived, tar the Hous. yei to say defiOtively what course they should adopt in reierence to this subject.—(lle,r. Iv sr.) Hi, - ing heard the statement of his Hon. Friend he cot& only ay that, if the Board of Trade could be shown to have come to am inconsiderate or impolitic decision, and it he eouid show the t• a better line for the county generally r ad been proposes . ; then that said to have be n approved of, he f It assured that that line would receive every con raion and attt ntion.---(Hear, hear.) It was not so much upon the decision that the Board of Trade should have arrived at on any particular line of railroad, that so mach depended, as on the statement they should make of the grounds upon which they had arrived at such de cisions. —(Hear, hear.) In fact, the value of those deci sions would entirely dap.•nd upon those grounds ; and he felt cer ain that the board would show that they were not deserving of em•d4mnation.—(llk ar, hear.) But it should be remembered that that Board had not long been in office ; they were only appointed last session, and were the mere creation of himself and his colleagues. That Board had been censured bemuse of their reports or decisions having got publicity at an improper time. He did think that a serious charge ; but, at the same time, he would say that he conceived it most conducive to public convenience that . those reports should be de clared at as early a period as possible ; for, if they held over those • deci ions for two or three months, there would be then such an enormous emu - milt-lion of busi ness, that those reports would be much more likely to gain publicity than by the course the Board had hitherto adopted ; but he did think the Board had adopted a wise and judicious course in reserving to themselves, until the proper time had arrived, their reasons for the decisions they had come to ; while, had they kept the whole a secret forthat time, it would have been much more likely to prove injurious. In two or three daye, the House would have the report of the Board, and that would be accompanied by a-general - statement of the grounds that had Ird them to concur in those views with reference to certain lines ; and until then, •he did hope the House would postpone giving expression to its judgment.— (Hear, hear.) He did also hope that the House would not come to a resolution to abandon the general principle upon which the Board had been acting, until they had given it a fair trial, and were convinced by ex perience tlva it was. .hear.) They had heard it stated that there . were 240 lines of railroad to be proposed. That was an enormous number ; yet he had little doubt, when they came to be looked into, they would be very consideralAy reduced ; but were they to come down to 100, still the amount of labour would be very great.—(Hear. - hear.) - His Noble Friend opposite had appled for the appointment of a Committt e ; he f.ire that could be granted, some reports of the Board of Trade would be brought forward, and they would be found to form a material element in the discussions of that Ci-mmittev.—(Hear.) The Committee, when it. sh-uld be appointed, would find it desirable to adopt some principle by which they should be guided. —( Hear, hear.) If the Members .of that Corn mittee sl,o7thf be • confined to a• small limit. s , ly five or 'sovun, and if they fete constant and puretual anendanco to the bu•intss befiwe them, wt.ether they old tt:4l6' dissent from the report of the Board of Trade, he bad no doubt the labour of the Committee moull have great influence with the House.—(Hear.) The, Committee would find it nt.eessary, perhaps, to have wit eesses t.l.ought b‘-fore them, to give evidence on loc4l peetiliarities, alit he could riot see why they could not apply the principle adopted by diction Committees to that branch.—(Hear. hear.) But supposing that this Committee were appointed .to consist of only five Mem. hers, from which those possessed of. local knowledge upon any particular line were to be excluded front giving evidence, and-that the, power of dr ciding upon a line was to• be transfirr, d to the Committee, the Noble Lord might despair of this House ever doing anything satisfactory on the subject.—(Hear.) He (Sir IL Peel) did not think that this House ought to transfer such a power to a 'Committee, or any other body.—(Hear.) In fact, if the Noble Lord's plan were adopted, he (sir R. Pee.) would look upon it as nothing more nor less than a total revolution of the law at present regulating rail road projects.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had ex pressed a fe..ir that parties would be likely to invest their capitsl in foreign speculations ; that was a good reason why the decisions of the Board of Trade should be as prompt as possible.—(:!ear, hear.) The plan of the Noble Lord, he (Sir R. Peel) conceived, it would be im• po-sible to adopt, for it would amount to this, that the Government should appoint new surveyors to survey all the lines proposed to be run in England, Scotland, and Ireland. That operation - would occupy a long time, and what would be the effect of it ? Take, suppose, the line from Waterford to Kilkenny ; that had been going forward ; and would it not create the greatest surprise and confusion if that line was to be stopped until a Government surveyor could have survey ed the line 1— (Hear, hear.) In like manner, were the works that had been going on for the last twelve or fourteen months, on some of the lines in this country, to be put a stop to, or suspended until the House had laid before it the Go versment engineers' report, for the proposition was, in fact, tantamount to that ?—(Hear, hear.) He did not know what the effect would be upon the country, if the Government were to take up the management and direc tion of railroads.; but he very much doubted, if the Government did adopt such a course, the country would, ab initio, be the better for it.—(Hear.) now could the Government decide upon what was and what was not the best line ? Suppose a line to run between any two towns were proposed, how could the Government acquire local knowledge sufficient to guide them in coming to a judicious decision ?—(Hear, hear,) Would it not be much better to rely upon the knowledge of those who were on the spot, and who, therefore, could alone give this information ?—(Hear.) Ile conceived it would, and therefore he would say, it was from such only that such information should be derived.—(Hear. hear.) They did not want to interfere in these speculations. They gave speculators the preference, stipulating, how ever, that certain preliminaries should be carried out for the benefit of the public generally, but more particularly for the benefit of the poorer classes. By pursuing this course they did not di turb the ordinary course of. busi ness. But winst would be the case if they followed the suggestion of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunder land ? Why the Government would be overwhelmed with the magnitude of the labour impos,-d upon them, and the result would he that not a single railway Bill would be passed. With all respect for the suggest.on of the Noble Lord, he thought it would be injudicious, th , reforr, for the Government to adopt it, and what he would propose was, that they should imme. dietely address themselves to the con-nation of a Select Committee to consider ha t would be the best mode of pi-civet-ding with respect to' these railway . Bills. It would be necessary, however, for then) to wait till they code see the report of the Board of Trade, and hear the general principles which they had adopted in coming to their conclusions. The Board of Trade had not yet decided upon the merits of the three York lines, but lie had no doubt when the report did appear .the represen tatives of the two lines reported against would start up and make speeches, to show how much better their lines were to the one which had been adopted by the Board of Trade. There , might also be surmises hazarded that the gentlemen connected with the successful line had some influence with the Government, but in his opinion these assertions should be received with. extreme cau tion, or not listened to at all. In conclusion, lie hoped the Hon. Member would agree with him, that in the meantime they should not interfere with the present practice Orlhe House, but at once proceed to take into consideration, by means of a Select Committee, the bi at, mode of ii,po ing of these Bills.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BANKES explained that he represented no line. 1 He merely stated his opinion as to which line he thought most benefit :the county with which he was connected. _. .. ...-..~ ~. J__.... ,o 7 After a fewe words from Mr. J. RUSSELL, who was quite inaudible in the gallery, Mr. \VAKLEY said the - Right Honourable. Baronet had made an excellent speech on the subject of railways, but the great difficulty which he had adverted to on a former occasion, h, , haul altogether passed over in utter sif. nee: - Now he wished to know what. was to be clone with tl - ie•barristers?—(Langhter.) They would be vic timised' if the: railway Bills AN erP to be- disposed of by five or Committees of that House. Now he wished to know the Members of that House were to be left to - the interminable" addresses of barristers P— (L•tughter.) Barristers would make no submission ex cept to members of their own profession, and the ques tion which naturally loose was—what persons could be placed in authority. This the Right Hon. Baronet ad mitted, On a tomer orensi:m, was the great difficulty to be dealt with, but still he had •not touched n^• the speech he had just made. In to the law of - a ' -~~'H~sing themselves their regret usteisters constantly expressed • wh^ _ -tor& they were not addres:‘ittp; ttentreiiien svere learned in the le ; e`. Notwithstanding the T'Lenilcmen sitting iii the 'Committee were makers of the law, Barristers constantly regretted that they were not learned in the law, and that they could not of conse quence comprehend the legal arguments which were applied to the question. Now in a paper of that Morn ing—ft paper of considerable influence—the Malt ing Chronicle-laid the Morning Chronicle only ex. pressed in a great measure what was the pub lic opinion upon this subject,—they would find a part of the question discussed. It was a . part which must not be overlooked, because it itaa perfect') notorious that the time 'of Committees was monstrously occupied by the addresses of learned gentlemen. As he had stated moreover on a former night, these Com mittees were adjourned again and again for the purpese of allowing barristers of extensive practice, who hap re•ned to be engaged in another place, the opportunity of attending to address them. It was, he said, a noto rious practice ; and what did the public press say with regard to these tribunals, formed by that House, as ex pressed to-day in the Morning Chronicle? It was ne cessary that the House shou:d have a correct view of the subject, and he would quote to them what was said. The Morning Chronicle says—" It may be that counsel do in these Railway Committees make gold out of iron with ' express .train haste ; peradventure also the fees are out of all proportion to the amount, intricacy, or dif ficulty, of the business done; but then it is not for doing the in4ness - eminent, eloquent, and able men are re tained, but for•overmasteriug the Committee."--- - --(Hear,' hear.) Thus the House e,awlint the barristers controlled the dommiftee and made them decide, not in accord ance with truth 'and justice, but in accordance with what was abselutelfcontrary to either truth or justice. Coun sel were employed, it was edmitted, for the purpose of overmat;tering the t citionittee. Now, what was the re medy proposed was this—" Elevate your Parlia mentary tribunal to the,i - itelleetual station of your Par !iament:lry,b,roind the remedy for prolixity, diffuseness, the tro,!net on of extraneou, matter, and such shock -1,.r h a d law, that it can only he called 4 •Crowner's 'que,t law,' was to-ar at hand. matters offitet, allow ;our C,mtnittee the juror', prOvinee, but in matters of law, aid theta by a c4,mpetent legal Asst , ssor, having judi - : cial rrsenSitatiy,'and, OF course - ,'" :squning power." In ether words, they mn-t provide, out of ,hat gpolemen who had sufficient intellectuality capscity 4,f to contend with the hired barristers who pie :d on those occasions. This was a compliment to be sure. He did not say it was wholly untrue, but it was certainly not very complim-ntary. The remedy for " prolixity, diffusene,s, the introduction of extraneous matter, and such sf , ocling bad law, that can only be called Crowners"quest law,' was near at hand." " Crowners"quest law," indeed. He was surprised !low it could be spoken disrespectfullt of, because the lawyers, chile in office, get the law into such ill repute—(Hear, hear)—that now unother profes sion had taken the office, it was a matter of great difficulty for them to extricate it. Now the writer went on to say, "It is not from any vulgar greedi ness of gain as is grossly and ignorantly imputed that counsel now waste the time of Committees in frivolous speeches, but it is because they level themselves down, be it said, to the intelligence of a Parliamentary tri bunal. High in mere wordy, but low, very low, in judiciel intelligence. Placing no reliance at all in the judicial discrimination of their judges." That was what was done by counsel. Ile believed this was written by an able mana man of great intellectual power, and' a barrister himself. "Plicing 'n6 'reliance at all on the judicial discrimination of their judges, Parliamentary counsel do undoubtedly often address to Committees the most preposterous . propositions in law, and finding such absurdities tolerated, contend for victory, and sometimes obtain it, often in the teeth of the law, of fact, and com mon justice." He very much feared that the proposal which had been made would not prove to be of a less obnoxious character. Public opinion was adverse to the occupation - of that House with regard to railways. It was believed that there were men in that House who were personally interested in speculations, that came before them, and they were therefore decided upon, - not in accordance with the public good. Nothing could be more unfortunate for the character of the Legislatnre than that such an opinion should generally prevail, but the feeling certainly was prevalent, - and he . did not believe that any proposition which had been made to that Reuse could have in the slightest degree the effect -of -mitigat ing this feeling. So long as this tribunal was main tained, so long would that House be doubted—so long would their decisions be impugned. In that House there was, no doubt, many who were personally interested in the speculations that were brought b. , fore them, but the Board of Trade- was constituted of highly respectable men—men who;it was thought, were far removed from the -slightest imputation. Nevertheless; allusions had been made to:the - decisions of that Board, and there were many who doubted those decisions which particularly related to rail Ways. Now, as he had stated, it was thought the Board would nett be open to imputations, but still insinuations had been thrown out stgain4 it, and he did net think it likely that the five or six Coin. mittees proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet would be more fortunate in escaping from doubt. Now, let him read an extract from a public newspaper called The Econmni&t. • - It was published by a highly respect- able and well-known person, and contained a statement of a very serious character. It was with reference to what had been going on in railway matters, and he could not help, waiting to remark that these things ought to be known and, duly considered before any Committee was appointed, and, in fact, before anything was done with reference to railways. The writer, inicommenting (won Mr. Gla(Mone, the late President of tile Hear). of Trade, stated, " That there was no doubt, nor was there -reason to b,lieve, that any one connected with the Board of Trade was interested in railways ; but since the appointment. of Sir James Graham's private secretary, a circumstance of a sus piciOus character had occurred. lie (Mr.'Wakley) did not knew how it was the Right 1 on.Baroeet's name eas in tro.lueed, because he ben( ved the Hight lion. Baronet (lid not exercise the remotest influence in the appoint ment of the gentleman to which allusion httd been made. —(Hear, ilea(.) The writer. went: 'thf, to state, th a t shortly after the appointment of Me O'Brien, his brother was engaged by the South-Eastern 'Railway Company as manager. The standing orders required that railway companies intending to make application for an Act of Parliament in the next session, should deposit their plans with theßoard of Trade before thelsth (4* November. After that day, however, it was well known that this order could not be complied with by the South-Eastern line, and . , in consequence, it was impos sible fur them to go through Parliament in the next session. This caused a considerable fall in their shares, but, notwithstanding, towards the end of December, Mr. O'Brien increased his stock of shams by several hundreds. To the surprise of every railway speculator, on the 17th the report of the Board of. Trade on the further lints which they had had under their consideration; appeared ; and in this report was contained the name of the railway' proposed by the South-Eastern Company, although it was considered to be entirely out of Court. The pro . posed line was-favourably reported, and on the following day a notice was , posted on the Stock Exchange in the usual coarse -of business, stating that if one hundred shares in the new line sold at ei premium were not taken up, they would be bought in by Mr. Scott. These shares were worth .221.1 - each, and it was conjectured that this was only a small portion of the quantity Mr. O'Brien had purchased.. Now he asked the Right Hon. Baronet, or any other person, whether it was possible that such a statement as this could go forth to the public without producing . the greatest possible injury upon the v eracity of the Railway Board? If these statements were not put an end to, it would involve the country inconsiderable difficulty. It was next to impossible, .under the adverse circumstances in which they were placed, to hope to make any proposition . which should receive the general concurrence of the House or the public. The whole subject was one of difficulty, for the interests involved in it extended to every part of the land. Placed in these difficulties as they were, he should fur once propose placing a barrister in an official situa tion, for he believed it would be quite impossible to get through the business which would have to come before them, without placing some legal gentleman at their head. The Bight Hon. Baronet was mere a friend to the barristers than he was, and he trusted he would adopt his suggestion, and appoint some person of legal ex perience and ability to the office. It was mon strous that under the present system a railway company .could not procure a Bill in that House; and several hundred thousand Pounds. fifty, sixty, or eighty thousand pounds, were ordinary sums paid for Bills, and he thought it was high tine a reformation should be introduced in this portion of their proceedings. It was asked, in the paper he had just quoted from, what he would think of a gen tleman making a speech about the inordinate gains of Sir Astley Cooper or Sir Benjamin Brodie? Bu• there was no similarity between the two cases: because in the one instance there was not that extravagant public expenditure as in the other. Why counsel were en gaged, at one and the same time, in four or five Com mittets, and - sometimes more. This rendered it fre quently necessary that one of them should be adjourned, and of course injured the public interest. But when gentlemen were paid to speak by the h air or the day. he was not surprised they should use their influence to pro tract their inquiries. He said, then, it was necessary something should be done to remedy this, if they wished to restore the confidence of the public in their pro ceedings.. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said—Nothing was farther from his intention than addressing the House on this ques tion, but as his name bad been directly introduced in the discussion, he felt it necessary to trouble the House with one or two remarks. Allusion had once or twice been made to him in the debates on railways, but he believed that was the first time his name had been directly men tioned. For upwards of thirty years he had had the honour of holding a seat in that House, and during the whole of that period he had taken an active part in the public and private busiLess brought under consideration. B a t his principal object rising to Wrests the Rouse •L' \ ' - . , was ere state, that never in the whole Course of his'Nr.; liamentarY career. - had . lie - been — connected Cllr, ctly or indirectly with any railway company whatsoever: In the course of the discussion which had taken place, referecee had been made to two gentlemen with whom he bad been,acqietinted. Both. those gentlemen had held commissions . in the arms' ; ttnd' having, afters girds made their sviy in life had forind it not, inconsistent With their honour or,character to fortn.connexions with rail ways. One of those ventlemen had .I),,en induced to give up his connexion with a railway company, and to aecept the office of his (Sir J: Graham' s ) private secfetsfe. (Sir J. Graham) had entertained the highest opinion of that gentleman's integrity and ability, and he disappointed. But he (Mr. n'n-' ' J. Graham) to ..--nsens went from-him (Sir Tr f ,reaCitt °Mee at the hoard or Trade. e turrßralltklii) rooptted his litsN ektrbidely, and had nothing to do With his aiipointnient to. Chet Board. ti e arss,, hove era,. appoitited oh ilib coilditioti that any tolinekioil which. he had with railways should be dis solved, and that the shares which he possessed should be sold ; and in the month of October last, as he was in formed by Mr. O'Brien ! -that gentleman's shares were sold. But it wee understood that these *he held the seep or first ttlidtirhottt of Shares, must sign the deed, Mid it was in that way the name of Mr. O'Brien appeared now as connected with the railway company. But he (Sir James Graham) was assured by Mr. O'Brien, upon his honour, that the sale of the shares Was attllally effected in October. The gentle Tian whose name was referred to la the Pronomiat newspaper, was not the same, but his brother. He also had served in the army, and was now corn cted with the South-Eastern Railway, and both these gentlemen had given him (Sir James Graham) the strongest assurances, upon their honour, that neither directly nor indirectly had any communication been made by either of them to the person alluded to, as having taken advantage of information obtained from the Board of Trade. No one could regret more than he did, that any such suspicion should arise as to the con duct of any person connected with a department of the Government ; and he trusted the House would not think that he acted improperly, if, on the first impulse, he had risen to state the facts as they were, as far; at least, as he was cognisant of them, or concerned with them.— (Hear, hear.) If there were any suspicions on the part of any Member of the [louse with respect to the purity of the conduct of either of those gentlemen, it was matter of enquiry. —(Hear.) Let that inquiry be instituted, and if they were not able to exculpate themselves to the satis faction of the House—altheugh he had the highest opinion of their honour and fidelity, he would say, let them stand or fall.—(Hear.) Still he would say, that their character, that the character of men who had served with distinction and credit, ought not to be whis pered away, when a direct charge could be Made against them, and if true, be easily substantiated.—(Hear.) Now, although he could not apply to the Honourable Gentleman opposite—( Mr. Wahley)—the compliment which that gentleman had paid to his Right Hon. Friend. at the head of the Government ; namely, that he had made a premien' and useful speech. ha yet agreed with him in much that he had said. Boot - he could not agree e , ll.ll_llitri in What he had said en the authority of the Morning Ciaoniele,thit•the intellect and information of the Hon.e of Comuions Was below the intellect and in formation of th, Bar, and that its committees ought to be elevated to the standard of the profession ith which those tribunals hold to contend --(Hear, hear.) With respect to the Committee of the Board of Trade, he would only remind the House that three of its members had served with credit, and with irreproachable honour in the army, and that the other two members, who were civilians, had always been spoken of in the highest terms by the other side of the House.—(Hear. hear.) But with respect to the Committees of the House, he would esk. have we art ived at the day when the reprs sentativ, s of the p• ople—acting before the public and in the face of dny—were not competent to consider questions of this kind?—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that if these inquiries were conducted in such a manner as to brine. public opinion to bear upon them, the difficulties would be overcome, and the duty would be performed with satisfaction to the public. As there were in the House so many Members of the legal pro fession, he was ashamed to say in their presence any thing in defence of the " long robe," to which this country owed so much. But he could not avoid saying that, without the aid of the gentlemen of the bar, they - would not be able to conduct the private business of the Committees with satisfaction to the country.—(Hear, hear.) What would people say if they had not the freest choice of the lawyers to whom they should en trust the care of their interests, if they were to be bound by rules, and fettered in their selection of legal advisers?—(Hear, hear.) People thought themselves entitled to have the ablest men, and to be left to their own free judgment in the cFoice. It wa s the duty of . the representativee of the people to sacri fice their own time and convenience, rather than pre vent the gentlemen who were selected to explain and defend private rights and interests from the fullest advocacy of those who entrusted their affairs to their advocacy.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the speeches of counsel before the Committees, he must say that he thought they were limited as much as possible - ; and, as far as he had observed, an intimation from the chairman was always sufficient to curtail a. speech.—(Hear.) He entirely concurred in the observations of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government. He thought that the discussion would do good, and he could not regret that it had taken place. He felt that he ought to apolo gise to the House—(No,- no)—but he could only say that, situated as he was, anything that affected his public character required the earliest and fullest explanation. Mr. WAKLEY said that he had not read the paper to which he referred ten minutes before he spoke; and, as he found the name of the Right Hon. Baronet mentioned in it, he thought he should have acted unjustly if he had not called his atten tion to it. Mr. BROTHERTON said that as his Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury had complained of the length of speeches of counsel, he thought it only, just to say that the length of Members' speeches might more reasonably be complained of.— (A laugh.) He thought that every Member of the Howse who was liable to' be placed upon a Committee ought to do as he did, that was, never to have anything whatever to do with railway shares. Mr. DARBY said that the working of Railway Committees was very much improved, and he thought it no more neces sary to have a lawyer as an assessor than to have a medical man.—(A laugh.) He admitted that in some particular in stances long speeches were made, but when private interests were involved it would be unwise to allow parties to go away with the impression that they had not been able to lay their whole case before the Committee. Mr. WALLACE would be very brief in what he had to say. He had often served on Railway Committees, and he had notimd the mem:louvres of agents and c unsel to prevent a do ci sion being come to, by talking on until it was announced that the Speaker was in the chei .--(A laugh.) But if ever he should be Chairman, he should adopt tie practice that was fol lowed in the House of Lords, and appoint the adjournment at nine o'clock. He was exceedingly glad that this discussion had taken place, 'She believed it would call the attention of the public to the subject. He would now withdraw the motion. The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn. MEDICAL OFFICERS llst POOR-LAW UNIONS. Mr. WA K L rose to move for a return containing a de scription of the diplomas, licences, or other letters testimonial, that are admitted Ind sanctioned by the Poor-law Commis sioners as legal qualificrions which entitle medical practi tioners to be appointed medical officers of poor-law unions in England and wales. The Poor-law Amendment Act had ex cited the utmost confusion among medical men with reference to the persons qualified to hold the office of medical effacer to a poor-law union. By that Act, power was given to the Poor law Commissioners of appointing and dismissing pail officers ; and these, of course, included the medical officers. The Medical Ass , :ciation of London had been constantly discussing the subject, and much anxiety was felt amongst that body. In 1842 the Poor-law Commissioners endeavoured to reiredy the evil complained of, and a general order was issued. This order stated that any person holding a diploma from any of the medical institutions of this country was qualified for the office of medical officer to a poor-law union, but the order made no mention of persons holding diplomas from institutions in Scotland and Irelaud. All such persons were consequently excluded. and this bad given great dissatisfaction in Scotland and Ireland. Applications had been made to the Poor-law Commissioners on the subject, and in 1843 the question. was submitted to Sir Frederick Pollock, the then AttoraeyGene ral, and Mr. Martin, who 'gave it as t l- eir opinion that any person holding a diploma, from any medical I nstitution ! either in Scotland or Irelaud, was eligible. for the office to which he had alluded. Now it was a cerious .circumstance that, not withstandingr been altered. this T opini o n,he object of cure from the Poor-law Commissioners a clear and dist inc t statement of the qualifications which were deem ed t ? be neces sary to entitle any medical gent l eman .to hold the situation of medical officer to any poor-law union. the ehis generalmot 7citheerret 2 wa s h t d neve r o Sir JAMES GRAHAM said it was not his intention to op pose the motion of the Hon.-Gentleman. It was quite true that the right of parties holding - diplomas in Scotland or Ire land to practice in poor-law unions Was a matter involving some doubt. The Poor-law , Commissioners were bound to execute their functions in conformity with the law. although the opinion of the Chief Baron and Mr. Martin was that persons holding diplomas in Scotland and Ireland could practice in this country in poor-law unions, yet it mu s t be borne in mind that no person but a general practitioner could hold the office of medical officer to a.poor-law union • and as the Apothecaries' Act excluded persons holding . dip lomas in Scotland and Ireland, the Poor-law Cornmissioners i acting in conformity with that law, of course excluded them. Now it so happened that this was one of the principal things which he professed to remedy in the Bill for Medical Reform which he had laid on the table, and he therefore was glad that the Hon. Gentleman had alluded so prominently to this grievance. As he had said before, he had not .the least objection to the papers which the Hon. Gentleman had moved for. Mr. WAKLEY said that which had struck hint most forci bly was, that no alteration bad been made in the general order of the Commissioners of 1842. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that his impression was that an alteration bad been made. The whole of the papers, how ever, should be produced. The motion was then agreed to. • POOR LAW. Captain PECHELL then rose to move for the return (or dered 25th July) of all union workhouses under the Poor-law Amendment Act, in which the pauper inmates thereof are, or have been, employed in grinding or crushing bones by means of mills, machinery, or otherwise ; together with the date of such erection of mills or other machinery, and the names of the chairman and vice-chairman of the board of guardians of every inch union at the period; also. the cost of the said bones, in-_ eluding all expenses of carriage and other incidental expenses, and the amount which.the same have produced in the,:rmanu factured state, and whether the same have been so . lirb y tender, or fixed price, or otherwise. He had moves. for this return last session, and it had been faithfully promised by th e Ri g ht Hon. Gentleman opposite. It bad not,' however, appeared. He wished for this information in firder that they might have the opportunity of instituting a comparison between the work houses under the Gilbert Union Act and those under the Poor-lasv Amendment Ant. • Although the Right Hon. Gen tleman bad distinctly ' stated that he was averse to the use of machines for grinding bones in workhouses, yet he (Captain Pechell) could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that as late as December last,. at one of the Bastiles in his neigh bourhood; it was the constant practice to grind bones, and an additional mill for that puapose had been lately erected. It Was impossible for the Poor-law Commissioners to permit such practices to continue. He hoped that the Right Hon. Gentle man would, on that occasion, as he did at the conclusion of the last session, express his dissatisfaction, when he (Capt. Pechell) had assured him that he knew a union workhouse--he would not say in what Bart of the country—in which a mill for grind ing bona; still masted. The citmt,ism boxing boa put, Now, ~. GR A HAIII Said Ise Could the Hon..atikatliant Oftcer that he hid eirpressed tothe Poor-law Commissioners, before the close of the last session, his earnest desire that if pos sible the returns Might be itirdishect before the House rose; but it wits fohnd ihipossiblep complete their' id time ' He was liapity to ififortn him that they wound, in three hr fbiir ch4s, be presented to,the House. He had no hesitation in declaring, what he bad :already stated ; that to_ilijm it w as matter of regret that in poor-law union workhotuteii pitch descriptkrt of Mohr ' as the crushing of bone§ 40i11,1 be tisdd:-. 4.llear, hear; ) He thought there Wen! 11114 circiiinsiabcit which rendered It an oltenslie dear, was imposs.ble to prgVent a very disgusting smell ; and he repeated that it was .matter of r . :47 , :t t to bilmieif that this species of labou r shoula be adopted. At the some tithe lie *as bound io sly that this iv4s an d f loCal management. tvithstanding all the jetilotiSy of the tioWer of the c pmmis refs—the kings; as thy were cello:l,in Sointriet Hottitez.z.. bi t r authbritY was, it appeared very limited. It was dot pre , . ',bribed b, laic 141, Mite- &fishing &Mid be the oectipatiOn of the inmates of.workisouses, much leis was it the 'Oh of the Secretary of State or the Poor-law Commissioners, either of whom would, if they had the power, put an end to this kind of occupation, but, he repeated, this was an illustration - of the working of local management apart from central authority, total tbittagettent Cid discretion Uhchetked; and nnt*ed by Idly saperior power. --(heir, heaf.) M the la* ntiir stoddi boards of guardians had a right to employ the initiates of workhouses in this particular manner. The evil continued because there was no central control, and this was an illustra- tion of the fact that the powers of the Poor•law Commissioners iii ht its smut uses be bettellcially ettended.—( Hear, hear.) Lord EBRINGTON said, as one who wit cOttnected with a union workhouse where bones were crushed by paupers, he could not allow this subject to pass without saying a few words. If bones were not to be crushed by paupers, it was quite clear that they'must be crushed by independent labour ers I and he eonfessed it appeared to him a strange position to lay down, that work which was too offensive for the one class should be performed by the other.--4" Hear, hear," from Sir C. Lemon.) He rejoiced that there was no legal power of pre venting the continuance of the practice. He felt convinced that he had not been a party to ordering an unjust, unfair, or an unwholesome employment, and he hoped that the practice would continue in union workhouses as long as bones were crushed by independent labourers out of doors. Captain PECHELL said, that if the Noble Lord had been in Parlsament when a petition was presented to that House from an unfortunate pauper in a union workhouse, who was brought to death's (tor^r from the scandalous treatment which he had received in a house where men were sent to the bone mill as a punishment, be would not have assumed the position which he had done that night.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would issue an order for the sup pression of the practice. In the workhouse which he hadin his eye, the guardians were, he believed, Impressed with the notion that they were fully carrying out the views of the Poor-law Commissioners, and that this workhouse was, in fact, a patent poor-law Bastile for the whole country. It was necessary that the guardians should be made acquainted that they had mis taken the opinion both of the Secretary of State and of the Poor-law Commissioners. _ ... Mr. WA KLEY said he was really surprised to find such Noble interest engaged in support of this system.— ( Laughter. ) This proved that it prevailed to to a fearful extent. He hail before thought that by some accident the atrocious practice which had fallen under , the notice of the Ga'lant Captain ex isted somewhere ; but he had now heard a Noble Lord rise in that House and ask whether this labour was to fall upon the pauper or upon the independent labourer ?—( Hear, hear. ) Whv the Commissioners had more to do than he had imagined. —( Hear, hear, from Mr. Roebuck and ether Hon. Members. ) He was bound to admit they had been the protectors of the members of this profession against the parsimony of the boards of guardians ; and lie should be di-posed to give them more authority.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State, after hearing what had fallen from the Noble Lord, o ght to ask for more authority within forty-eight hours .—( lronical cries of " Hear, hear, ' and laughter.) Were paupers to be •employed in crushing bones in a state of decomposition ? Were they to be put to this poisonous, filthy, odious, and abominable occupation? and was that occupation to be defended by a Noble Lord ?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord could not have spent any time in the workhouse, that was quite evident. It was most distress ing to hear the Noble Lord make such remarks; and if be sanctioned it in the union with which he was connected, he feared that a practice, or practices equally odious, prevailed generally throughout the country. He did maintain that it was necessary to refer to the Pour-law Commissioners for p:otec tion against practices of this nature. He had already stated that the Poor-law Commissioners had protected the members of his profession against the parsimony and illiberality of boards of guardians; and he would on a future occasion mention a union where a medical officer was dismissed by the guardians on the ground of his being too liberal in giving food to the poor ; though not a single instance of the kind had been brought home to him, he was dismissed upon that ground. He was in formed the Poor-law Commissioners had no power to protect individuals against the guardians • but if any power had existed it would certainly have been a very proper case for its exercise. He did not hesitate, then, to ask the Right Hon. Baronet to apply, in the Bill he was about to introduce that night upon the law of settlement, for powers which would give to the Commissioners sufficient authority to put down the abominable practice of bone-grinding in union workhouses. Mr. ROEBUCK said he was -not going to occupy the time of the House with any remarks on the immediate sub ject then before the House ; but he could not help con trasting the opinion just expressed by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, with the sentiments to which he had been accus tomed to give vent on former occasions, both in that House and out of doors.--( Hear.) • It appeared that the Poor-law Commissioners were not now such persons he had formerly considered them to be—(Laughter)—as he called on the Hight Hon. Baronet not to let forty-eight hours pass without increas ing their powers.—(Laughter.) Let the Honourable Member and others who had joined with him in that respect, look back to the language which they had used in reference to the Poor-law Commissioners. Let the House recollect how the Commissioners had been talked of as the three tyrants of Somerset-house and how the term " pinch paupers" had been applied to th em.—( Hear, hear.) Every term, in fact, which could express contempt and hatred had been used by the Hon. Members ; and he would ask the Hon. Gentleman, before he hastily expressed an opinion upon such a subject, to place faith in those by whom the question had been more accurately, calmly, and dispassionately considered. He ( Mr. Roebuck) spoke feelingly on this subject. He was one of those against which the finger of scorn had been pointed, on account of the sup: ort which he had given to the new Poor law Bill, and he now directed his finger iss scorn against the Hon. Member opposite to whom he referred. There were per sons who cared not what opinion they expressed, so that it suited the particular matter in hand. When it suited them they could talk of the three tyrants in Somerset-house ; and, again, for the same reason they would talk of increasing their powers in forty-eight hours. That might be all very well, if one, who indulged in mere talk for a particular purpose, to for ward a particular object—( Hear, hear )—but it did not suit one whose mind was impressed with a sense of the great duties a. , ,d responsibilities which rested upon his shoulders; one who was willing to meet not only the feelings of hostility which might be exhibited on the part of Hon. Members opposite, but even the - hostilities of friends, when he thought that his duty required it. His only object in rising on this occasion was to impress upon his Hon. Friend near him (Mr. Wakley) and upon some other Hon. Members opposite, the duty that lay upon them not hastily to come to conclusions or to employ the arts of popular dema goguism. for the purpose of obtaining applause. He had seen that night a signal instance—honestly given, he would allow —by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, of an acknowledgment of error, and he did hope that it would induce modesty in his conduct, and modesty in the conduct of other Hon. Members besides hints , lf.—( Hear, and laughter. ) Sir C. LEMON said that as far as tis own experience went, he had no reason to believe that this occupation was particularly offensive or disagreeable to the paupers themselves, or in any way unwholesome. He was convinced that it wat no more disagreealle than the breaking of stones, or any other kind of labour. If this labour were abolished. he believed that it would be difficult to find them sufficient employment. Mr. WAKLEY said he did not know whether it was Par liamentary or not, that a Member, when he addre.sed that House, should have improper motives imputed to him. It had been stated by the Hon. and Learned Member fot Bath that he had made a statement for the purpose of obtaining applause. He utterly denied it. He was as incapable of doing so as the Hon. Member himself, or any other Member. He had never used any language with regard to the Poor-law Amendment Act out of that House which be had not used in it ; and all the expressions which he had ever used in relation to the powers of the Commissioners he was prepared to repeat. All he had stated was, that if this practice existed under the ope ration of the Poor-law Amendment Act, which his Hon. and Learned Fi iend supported, and which he (Mr: Wakley) opposed when it was brought into that House, he was prepared to give the Commissioners powers to abate the nuisance. —( Hear.) Mr. HENLEY said he was certainly surprised at the for getfulness of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. He ought to remember that the Poor-law Commissioners had first taught, and even compelled, the guardians to adopt the system of which he complain, d. This species of employment had been intro duced as a check to anv discontent on the part of the labourers. Mr. SHARMAN (RAWFORD protested against the ap peal which had been made to the Right Hon. Baronet to in crease the powers of the Poor-law Commissioners. He did not deny but there had been many abuses connected with bone crushing and other matters, but there were other means of re medying the grievance without increasing the powers of the Commissioners, and to such a remedy as that he for one would be extremely willing to resort. POOR-LAWS—THE LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Sir .1. GRAHAM said, that in rising to bring this important subject before the House, he feared he couldinot put the House in full possession of the Bill which he was about to introduce, if he did not go through the reasons which induced him to make the alterations which the Bill contained. The House would recollect that he introduced a Bill on this subject last session, and it was a melancholy fact, that no less than one-tenth of the whole population of England and Wales required relief out of the poor-rate in the course of last year • that was to say. that no less than 1,500,000 persons required relief in the course of the year from this rate.—( Hear, hear.) He might state in various ways the amount which - . had been expended in the relief of the poor. He might state that since the termination of the war in ISIS-- r notwithstanding all that had b en said about the neglect of the poor, of the neg lect of their duties by the rich towards the poor, notwith standing all the relief that had been dispersed by private charity and their numerous charitable institutions, no less a sum had been paid from the poor-rate in this country since the termination of the war, than 200.000,000/., amounting to one-fourth of the capital of the National Debt. There was, therefore, no doubt of the existence of great poverty and desti tution in the country, but in addition to this destitution and this poverty, the question arose, should the poor now receive relief in the place where they resided for years, where they had contracted habits and feelings of friendship, or whether those associations should be broken? The House would pardon him for thus introducing the subject, which was so intimately con nected with the feelings of so large a portion of the people of this country. It was a subject of the greatest importance, and one that required the greatest consideration, and it had diffi culties attending it, which rendered it a subject difficult to be dealt with. Yet he was satisfied, conscientiously satisfied, that important changes and modifications of the existing law of settlement, in reference both to the interests and feelings of the poor, was imperatively required.—(llear, hear.) Ac tuated by that strong impression, he ventured to bring under the notice of the House the Bill of last session, and those gentlemen who were then present and attended to what he s'id, could re collect- that on the occasion of 'his laying•the Bill of last session on the table of the House, he stated that he hoped the Bill would undergo free and full discussion during the recess, and that he might receive the suggestions and the commentaries of those who considered the measure. He had, accordingly, re ceived from various quarters suggestions and commentaries , and it was now his duty to lay betore the House the result of the best consideration and intelligence which he could apply to them. In the Bill which he introduced last session t he re himw were e tofoguor through h en th t o p s o e in d t iff s. ere l o t t w p o o u in ld ts n ag ot ai b: ne The two points to them no serious objection had been urged. wtehnidcehdobsjheocu'lidon, confers had b it e: e n: 9 intended should be not only set tlement by birth, which 1t wae th epe g t n o the who r other referred to a fi ve prospective but retrosp ective ; th e • • • once in one loca lit y, which it was in years' industrial rendossatryofoorf attired relief. • To that part of the Bill which regulated the • removal o f scotch and Irish paupers, nb serious objections had yaedaebili re l ated —the ton be „ ' ebjectieus taken to the two irst heads—naively, the birth, settlement, and the irremove ability couferred by a five years' industrial residence were almost identical. First, it was stated, that considering so large a number of persons as °tit...tenth of the whole pepulation required relief, those two regulations would girt rise to a dislo eation of the whole system of the law which heretofore rept lateel the right of settiement. It was stated that it would shake the indisputable rights of parties to Ise relieved ender the law 85 it stood at present in their parishes, and would also prodeee r t ,Af d ea l ~pf litigation_ as the necessary result. It was Ob jected that in eases where the parish was in the hands of one, or of a few individuals, it Would induce those persons to pull down cottages, and to have recourse to a system which was better known than in England by the terrible words the clearing of es tates, and to drive the population from their little hamlets and gardens. As he could hot put those objections in a stronger light than they had beat urged in a memorial which he had re teived from the union of Bedford, the Otiose would permit him to read front their memorial. They stared with regard to the settlement by birth, that they were of opinion the owners of the prifitipal parts of parishes erstild clear them of the population by pert:basing Or blinding cottages adjoining towns, and compel ling them to reside theta. The same objection the Memorialists stated applied to irremoveability by five years' industrial tesi• dente. He was bound to state that the memorialists had clearly stated their objections, and that they were well worthy of serious consideration. It was his wish to meet those objections, and having given the subject all the reflection in his power, he was not prepared any longer to propose that a retroactive effect should be given to the laws of settlement. What he now io_roposed to enact was to take effect at the passing H of the Act. e confessed that he saw great disadvantages in limi - ing the Act to a prospective operation only, but the late regulation, which required the place of birth to be mentioned, would hereafter afford increased facilities with regard to the settlement by_ birth. When on the for mer occasion he ad dressed the House on the subject, he stated that it was clear that in the aggregate the interests of the towns and of the country were identical, but in details such as they were now dealing with there was certainly a clashing between their in terests. It was quite clear that the birth settlement was in favour of the towns, at the expense of the rural districts, and for this eery obvious reason, that the opportunities for labour which the towns afforded, attracted the redundant population of the country, but when destitution come upon them they were thrown back upon the country, tut on the other hand, the irremoveability which a five years' industrial residence would confer, would be in favour of the country at the expense of the towns; for the poor of the rural districts being attracted to the towns by the greater demand for labour there, would have acquired the right of relief by five years' residence. If, therefore, he was compelled to forego the immediate enact ment of birth settlement, and not to bestow on r ural districts anything which had been contemplated, he was bound also not to impose upon the towns the extra burthens he had alluded to. On the whole he was disposed to forego those two portions of the measure he had introduced last session, namely, birth set tlement, and five years' industrial residence. He hoped the House would pardon him. if he called its attention to the great advantages which the six other limitations he intended to in troduce would confer. Every woman during her marriage, who should be liable to be removed upon her husband's death to his parish, would not be subject to that removal. Every illegitimate child, under the age of 16, who would be liable to be removed to the parish where the father had a set tlement, would not be liable to such removal. Every child under 16, being a bastard, who would be liable to be removed to the parish where its mother had a set tlement, would not be liable to such removal; aid no widow . . who at the time of her — husband's death resided with him, should be liable to be removed from the parish where she was residing, until the expiration of one. year after her hus band's death, So that the.widow who, at the time of her hus band's death, s' as residing with him in the parish in which he was settled, would not be liable to be removed therefrom ; and no widow or her children, though born in Ireland or Scotland, could after her husband's death be removed from the parish where the husband resided till after the expiration of a certain period. So that, in tact, the greatest advantage was given by the measure to the Scotch and Irish paupers. He now came— having stated the alterations in the measure of last session that were proposed—he now came to what appeared to him a most important condition—so important, that if the House permitted him to introduce it, he should ct nsider it necessary to ask the House to permit of some little delay between the in troduction of that Bill and the second reading. He had stated on a former occasion that no working man in this country reached the age of forty without experiencing the injustice of the law of settlement. What was the cause of this, and what was the result? Why, labour did not circulate freely in Eng land. Now, he thought it would be of great advantage to the poor man, and no disadvantage to the rich one, if they were to proceed to reduce the restraints on the circulation of labour. He thought there could be no objection to the adop tion at once of the union settlement. If he could induce the House to substitute union for parochial settlements, that would reduce the injustice of the law of settlement as it at present ex isted. 'there was nothing new in parochial settlerrients, but there was in union settlements. By the late Act which was introduced, it was provided that the union should be considered part of the same parish. If the proposition he was about to make was of any value, it must be general. The House would perhaps allow him to read the mode in which he proposed to effect it. But, perhaps, before he did so, it would be better that he should sustain his proposition by various authorities, both in town and country, all of whom agreed with the proposition he was about to make. He would not advert to all the authorities he had upon the subject, but the House would perhaps pardon him if he mentioned four. In Norfolk the guardians of the Briden union had come to a resolution that all parochial settle ments were bad in principle, and taxed the poor man most un justly ; and that, in order to avoid the evil, parochial settle ments should be abolished, and all districts should be formed of the whole union. The overseers and leading officers of the Manchester union stated, that whatever course the Le gislature might take in reference to this important mat ter, they would strenuously urge upon them the mak ing of all the towns and unions as one. He would now read an extract from a report of Mr. Hall, the Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, charged with the superin tendence of the Metropolitan distr.et. He says—" Much diffi culty that is expected to follow the administration of the new Bill will be done away with, if settlements were made not pa rochial, but to relate to the union." He should trouble the House only with one more extract, and that was from the very able report drawn up by persons most conversant with this particular subject, whose experience and opinions were entitled to the utmost respect. That extract was a list of the unions the clerks of which had assembled to discu=s this sub• ject. These unions were Altringham, Bolton, Bake well, Burley, Charlton-on-Medway, Congleton, Huddersfield, Kendal, Manchester, Macclesfield, Preston, Stockport, Stoke upon-Trent, West Derby (which included Liverpool), Bur store, and some others; the opinions of the cfficers of all these unions were in favour of his proposal. Thus he bad argu ment in support of his proposition ; he had practical autho ritv in fav,itir of it, and unless he deceived himself, he thought the House could not, by any single measure, more consult the interests, and as he believed the feelings and happiness of the poor, than by receiving this proposition. He was con • fident that no one measure would so much restrict the probability of frequent removal, and allow labour to circulate so freely as the measure he propounded. It only remained for him to state shortly the exact mole in which he proposed that the measure should be carried out. He proposed that, wherever a parish or township was included in a union, all existing and future settlements should be deemed to be, not settlements of that parish or township, but of the union in which they were included. In that union all removals should in future be conducted by the board of guardians, and net by the parish officers. That was a point on which he mainly relied as certain to produce the humane effects he antici pated. Instead of the narrow, bad, and selfish interests of parish officers, the local feelings, and, he was bound to say, the narrow prejudices of these officers, the question of removal would ne submitted to the board of guar dians. All facts would be freely discussed by several persons, and those possessing the most confidence to decide on them, and without that pinching and harsh desire to cut down to the utmost the charge upon each small parish. All appeals in the same manner would he conducted by the board of guardiars on behalf of the union. He was sorry he had been obliged to trespass at such length on the attention of the House, and he had now only to state that all the checks and arrange ments incidental to the trial of orders of re moval, provided by the Act of last session, should be left unchanged, though all the power of the parish officers in respect of removals would be transferred to the guardians, just as all discretion would be taken from the parish authorities and transferred to the Board. It might be said that in the midst of the vicissitudes of trade, the alterations of ser vice, gross injustice might be done to some districts in conse quence of those changes, unless some precautions were taken. But lie proposed that the expenses should be shared by all the parishes of a union, in proportion to the average of their popu lation for the last seven years, ending at Lady-day, 1844. As regarded the equity of this arrangement up to the present time, he theught it amounted to demonstration that it could not be impugned. The only argument he anticipated was a retrospective one, founded on the fluctuations of trade. But his proposition as it now stood would not, in point of fact, increase in the least the hardships arising from the operations of trade. It was quite true that the tide of manufacturing enterprise had left some districts and gone to others. That it had left the NViltthire district and gone to the North, leaving the former much embarrassed and depressed. But they could not prospectively take precautions against these fluctuations of trade ; but up to this moment he maintained that in such an arrangement as he proposed, there was nothing to increase the hardships inciden al to these fluctuations. He should weary the House if lie dwelt at greater length on this question, the more particular details of which would be discussed on future occa sions. But he still thought the Bill was one which he was justified in submitting to the consideration of the House. He certainly should not presume, it the House permitted him to in troduce the measure, to press the second reading till the House had had ample time to consider the propo sition, and he had himself an opportunity of collecting opinions upon it. But at the same time he felt a confidence that the merits of the measure would recommend it to all those whose humanity led them to promote the well-being of the poor —to all those whose justice impelled them equally and fairly to distribute that charge which was by right levied from the rich for the support of thc poor—and to the humane and just of the community at large—he commended the measure, believing that if well and fully considered it would be found not unworthy of the attention of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law of settlement. Colonel WOOD took the earliest oppor unity of expressing his, regret at the purport of the latter part of the Right Honourable Baronet's statement. He would give the Right Hon. Baronet all credit for the atten tion he had given to this subject, and many points of his propo sition were worthy of the consideration of the House. No doubt the Right Hon. Baronet thought the measure was cal culated to benefit the poor, but if adopted, instead of being any benefit to the poor man, it would be the greatest injury ever inflicted upon him. The consequence would be, that all anxiety to employ the poor in their own parishes would cease. Labourers would be discharged, and without scruple thrown for support upon the union. Whenever a time of difficulty arose, vast numbers would be thrown on the union rate because it was not a local one. It had been stated that there had been no parochial rate up to the time of Charles 11,, but the fact was, that up to the time of Elizabeth, thrth)Cea3r9sthrof sidence entitled a man to parochial relief , Elizabeth persons could be sent hack to thea;:'dribstres it, which they had resided tor one year. He regrette d that the Right Hon. Baronet had felt it his duty to give . up t lat part of h . 1-till which gave a claim for relief on the parish where a man had resided for five years. He (Colonel W oo d) gave notice that he should introduce a clause by which every poor man residen t in a parish for one year should be en titled to relief as casua l poor. The proposal of his Right H on. Friend that birth alone should give a title to settlement would not at all remove the complaints now made by the poor. Th e poor man now complained that he might bring up a large family in one parish, by many years labour, and then be thrown upon a parish in which he was a total stranger. But the case n ow , if t h e pr i nc i ple o f bi rt h that would be precise l y alone was adopted. A poor man might be removed to a strange place under this Act as well as by the former system. Sir J. GRAHAM said that there were reservations in the power of making such removals. Colonel WOOD said he was aware that there were restric tions on such remov a l s , b ut h e t h oug ht that if residence gave a man a title to relief it would prevent much difficulty and hardship. There was another circumstance which fully entitled the labourer to a settlement. Formerly, every man that paid poor -rates obtained a settlement in the parish in which he was rated, and he certainly thought that if they obliged the poor man to pay poor-rates, that should at least entitle him to a set tlement in the parish to which he paid them. To make the poor belong to a union and not tot parish, would .entirely id ci 4il Jioill.3 £ll3 ud destroy all the care which the parish had ever eßhibited Watt -its destitute poor. He sincerely wished that the residents int parish should be entitled to a settlement ; and, if this lav Ware passed, l.e should propose a clause by which thoe persons tehsi resided in a parish should be *received u casual poor, and net passed out of it. l‘lr. BRIGHT said that he quite agreed with the Hon. sn4 Gallant Member that the remedy proposed was not commen surate with the extent of the evil, and he hoped that there sus en inclination manifested in the country to endeavour to arrive at a better solution of the question than that which was pre mised them by the Right Hon. Baronet. He had considerable experience of the feeling existing iu the manufacturing counties of England, and he could a,sure the Ho nourable and Gallant Member that the mode Of removing paupers to distant unions was viewed with Suspiciorr and dislike by a great majority of the people, and that clause certainly would meet with the most strenuous opposition from all parts of the kingdom. It might not be known to the Hon. and Gallant Member that in many parts of the country the proprietors were most anxious that not snore labourers than the land could well support should reside upon it, and the number was in maray eases exceedingly small, as the soil was bad, and then the landlords tried all sorts of manoeuvres to prevail on the labourers to settle in the neighbouring townships. He (Mr. Bright) lived in a township which paid for poor-rates in the proportion of some 9d. or Is. in the pound, and sometime ago ft became the duty of the relieving-officer of the county to send a labourer and his family back to the union of Frith, neat Richmond in Yorkshire. So soon, however, as it was knows there that there had been issued an order for his removal, the man received from the clerk to the board of guardians to which the union belonged, a letter inclosing a Post-office order for 205., and requesting him to pass from the township about to remove him, an The border, into the next one. He held the letter in his hand, addressed to Anthony Trapp (as we caught it )—and it said, " I send you this letter enclosing 2Css., and wish you to remove into the next township." At a future period the man and his family were removed, at • gr, at expense to Yorkshire by railway, and the guardians of the union house there were then sit ting at the time of their arrival. The relieving officeer returned, but he had not retraced his steps above one or two miles, when he was overtaken by the pauper family on their way back to Rochdale, the guardians not having had the pau pers in thir possession, if he might say so, mere than two hours than they began to bargain with them t o go hack to Roch dale ; and they prevailed. Back they did come, and reside there fore some three days. He confessed that, with such a mass of pauperism in the country, it was most difficult to settle the law at all. It was most unjust, then, that means should be given to the landed proprietors to expel the laboserers from the land, in order that they might settle in townships for a time, and so obtain settlements there. He should n ot object P . ' sup port the labourers so thrown upon them ; but such were the fluctuations of trade, that they were frequently compellki to refer back to the parish to which they belonged, those who in prosperous times had been employed by them. The Right Hon. Baronet spoke of the mode in which he intended to fix the rate in support of these unions for the future. He (Me Bright) thought that the fairest plan would Ise to rate the townships and parishes at that which they had paid for the seven years preceding the passing of this Act. The rate would press unduly upon some parts of the country, for there were parts of it where from generation to generation the popu- lation had not in any way increased, while others that now had no rate and no population, might in twenty years, or even in ten years, if they had large manufactories established, or coal mines opened, in crease, and so require for the sustentation of their paupers very great changes in the mode of collecting the rates for that purpose. He was inclined, therefore, to think that that part of the Right Hon.. Baronet's Bill should be materially altered. He was not, however, disposed to fitid fault with the Bill. He admitted that from the gigantic nature of the evil, they ought to give any measure calculated to lessen it their most eertons consideration. Mr. HENLEY must be permitted to say that a measure for the purpose of changing completely the old parochial sys tem ought to be received with very great caution. It wee. somewhat singelar that for such a great evil the Right Hon. Baronet should have prepared such a very small remedy. What the poor man wanted was, the ability to bring his labour to the best market. He entered his protest against a measure which would break up the parochial system of England. Mr. BROTIJERTON was of opinion that a fair rating within the union was the most acceptable mode of rating. He was very much disposed to think that this was a measure very much needed, and which would give general satisfaction. He would certainly offer no opposition to its passing into law. Colonel WOOD explained. Lord EBRINGTON wished to impress on the attention of the Right lion. Baronet the fact, that in almost every %mine there were a large number of small holders who were not sub jected to rates, but who increased the burden of the rate payers. He approved of the measure generally, and thought it would confer a great boon on the coun try. He was glad to hear the Right Hon. Baronet give commendation to a much-maligned class of men, political economists, and hoped that praise would be extended to the Poor. law Commissioners, and their Secretary, Mr. Chadwick, . who had done so much to advance the cause of charity. He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would direct his attention to the education of the poorer classes, and modify the limitations regarding the education of children, which were at present. at tended with very bad results. Mr. BECKETT DENISON thought. the House shoel feel grateful to the Right lion. Baronet for this measure, Nothing could be more absurd than the present law of settle ment. A man might be removed to a parish which he never heard of, and in which he had no relations or friends. In many cases this was the true way of making them paupers fir life. He did not think the proposed measure went more than half-way, and this was the chief objection which could be urged against it.—( Hear. ) He was glad that the time had been reduced so much ; if the time had been still further reduced he would have been glad of it ; had it been reduced to three years he should have been still better pleased; had it come down to two years, and one year, it would still be more satisfactory to him ; but he would have been completely satisfied If there were no limit to the period at all.—( Hear.) But under all the circumstances he would say he approved of the present measure, and would give it his most cordial support. Sir J. GRAHAM was glad to find that the House hadeso favourably viewed the measure ; but he should say he was somewhat surprised to hear the objections of his two Hon. Friends behind him. He did think it was not an unreasonable proposition that a modification should be made in the settlement period, and that where a poor person was tound residing, there he should find relief if he were in want of it. The Hon. Baronet then called attention to the enactments of Charles 11. in reference to the poor.law provisions conferring a settlement claim, by which it appeared that destitute persons found wan dering about should be sent back to their native parishes, in which they were held to have had a settlement if they had lived there forty days. He next called attention to the Poor law Amendment Act, which, he said, had done away with parochial relief, and instituted union relief instead. With regard to the question of the establishment of schools in large towns, he could assure the Hon. Member opposite that the question bad occupied his attention very closely laet. year. District schools ,had been established by way of experiolent, and he was not yet prepared to say what the result would be. lilt. WAKLEY begged to say he did not assentesethe pro visions of this measure, for he looked upon it as one that would operate in a very extraordinary manner upon the social coedi- non of this country, for it would, for instance, perpetuate the power of the Poor-law Guardians.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He understood the taunting cheer of the Hon. Member fo: Bath—( A laugh )—it was one of his peculiarities, and he (Mr. Waklev) understood it. But, nevertheless, he would still contend for it, that the powers of the guardians should not be increased. He could say that he knew of one union where neither the public, the rate-payers, nor the press were admit ted, while tha guardians were discussing the admission of the paupers. 'therefore he would say it was dangerous to give these guardians more power ' • and he would conclude by again repeating that he was opposed to the measure. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. TURNPIKE ACTS. Lord EBRINGION apologised for having so often tres passed upon the attention of the, House that evening ; but he begged to call att en tion to that present state of the law as affecting turnpikes, upon which he had several petitions to present, armed amongst others, to that of the South Morton turnpike:,,nc did not know whether the Government intended resuming tLeir former measures, or whether they intended to introduce a gee neral Bill on this subject. The Right Hon. Baronet when by first introduced the measure, stated that it was to be tried ire South Wales as an experiment, and . if it succeeded they might look for its extension to England. The measure was not favour ably spoken of by the creditors of the turnpike trusts, and be could not help thinking that some limitation ought to be given to it. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would allow him to bring in a Bill on the subject he should be glad. The measure he contemplated introducing was to limit the exemption from tolls only to such a number of mails and horses as might be thought reasonable and necessary for the public service. Frequently the number of letters to be transmitted was exceedingly small, but nevertheless small though the number was, it served to exempt four horses and a coach from the payment of tolls. In cases of this description he should propose to limit the exemption to a cart and horse. Under these circumstances, he would leave the matter in the hands of the Government, merely requesting, that if they would not allow him to bring in the Bid himself, at least they would give the subject some consideration. He moved for leave to bring in a Bill to discontinue the exemption of mails from paying toll on turnpike-roads. Mr. MORRIS seconded the motion. lie thought some of the burden ought to be taken off the farmers and placed on them who were more able to bear it. Ile hoped the Noble Lord would succeed in his measure, and be regretted to hear him say that he did not expect the co-operation of the Government. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not give the Hon. Gentleman who last spoke the satisfaction of hearing that the Government would co-operate with the Noble Lord. Whatever the inconvenience might. be to the turnpike trusts and the parishes through which mail coaches passed, that was more than compensated by the advan tages which the district derived from the Post-office communication. The exemption of the mails from roll had been established in 171(5, and, if it were to be removed, many districts must be excluded from the advantage of receiving letters direct from the post-office. If the Hill were to pass into a law, the country would have imposed upon it a burden of more than 50,0001. a year fo r the advantage of particular disitricts. After a few words in reply from Lord EBRINGTON, th motion wav at,ved without a division. Air. LOCK neg HART presented a petition for the Scotti s h Central Railwy. The House then adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock. FLANDERS MAIL. 13 ,,, ss ms, FEB. B.—The Chamber of Representatives con tinued to-day the debatta on the Budget of the Minister of the Interior. me Minister of Public Works, on a question being put by M. Brouckere, promised to acquaint the Chamber in a few days with the resolutions which the engineers shall have proposed to him respecting the tunnel of Cumpitch. M. de Brouckere desires that the tunnel may not be re• constructed. At the close of the sitting, the Minister of Pnblic Works brought forward a modification of the law as to railroads-- a modification which is rendered necessary- by the convention concluded between the State and Richards and Co,- on the iron railway of L'Entre, Sombre, and Meuse. The King gave audience to-day successively to Lieut.- General Lellierer, and M. Solvyns, Secretary of Legation at Constantinople We learn from Ratisbon that the Rev. Diepentsock has refused to accept the dignity of Prime Bishop of Breslau, to which he hail been elected by the chapter of that city. The two members of the chapter who were sent to him to induce him to accept this high post left our city yesterday without having been able to prevail upon him.—Brussels Papers. Feb. 9. DREADFUL ACCIDENT.—EIGHT LIVES LOST.- -- We learn from the Glasgow Argus, that eight boys, who were sliding on the Bogfoot Loch, • a reservoir for the supply of water to the Monkland Canal,were drowned on the 4th mat:, in consequence of the ice. giving way. The water was 25 feet deep at the part where theV were i m mersed. The sluices of the da'n were drawn in order to recover the bodies. They were all found near each other. Ali who were cin the ice at the time it broke were drowse o.lll` I