The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, April 18. Their Lordships met at Five o'clock. The Duke of BRANDON presented several petitions from the county of Cork against the Maynooth grant and the system of education in Ireland. The Duke of RUTLAND presented a petition from the farmers of the county of Leicester, praying to be relieved from the present agricultural distress. The Noble Duke also pre sented a petition from the Malvern Agricultural Soeiety, pray ing for a repeal of the malt-tax, and several petitions from the county of Leicester against any further grant to Maynooth. Lord CAMPBELL presented several petitions against any further grant to Maynooth , and a petition in favour of tem. perance. The Bishop of DURHAM presented several petitions against the grant to Maynooth. The Right Rev. Prelate said he did not share in the apprehensions expressed by the petitioners. He did not think the petitioners understood the correct bearing of the question, but he was satisfied great credit was due to the Government for introducing this measure. The Earl of CLEVELAND, and the Earl of WiceLow, also presented similar petitions against the grant. SEES OF ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR. Earl POWIS said that last year he had introduced a Bill for preventing the union between St. Asaph and Bangor, but after the second reading, under the advice of friends, he had withdrawn it, in consequence of an intimation that her Majesty's Government would oppose its further progress. He had this year introduced another Bill for the same purpose, and it stood for the second reading on Tuesday, the 29th. The question he wished to ask was, whe ther it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to inter pose, by preventing her Majesty's assent, and hinder the Bill from passing? The Duke of WELLINGTON, in answer to the question of ti.e Noble Lord, said that Ministers had not received her Majesty's permission to state that she would give her con sent to this Bill. Earl POW IS said that on Monday he would state what course he intended to pursue. His course would be different, in consequence of the intimation which their Lordships had just heard, to what he had intended, but on Monday he should to able to state what he thought it best to do. In the mean time he would remind their Lordships that the second reading stood for Tuesday, the 29th. The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions against the union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, and expressed his regret that Ministers were opposed to the I Bill of the Noble Lord. MAYNOOTH. Petitions were presented against the grant to Maynooth by the Marquis cf BREA DA LBA NE from Glasgow and several other towns in Scotland, and also from a great number of the con gregations of the Free Church in that country. Petitions were also presented against the grant by the Duke of RICHMOND from Elgin, Matlock, Inverness, and several other places. IMPROVEMENT OF LAND IN IRELAND. The Duke of RICHMOND moved for a return of the num ber of applications that had been made to the Court of Chan cery in Ireland for grants for the improvement of lands under the 3d and 4th of Victoria.—The return was granted. BANKING SYSTEM OF SCOTLAND. The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions against any alteration in the present system. RAILWAYS. Lord BROUGHAM, in moving the printing of the standing orders which he had brought under the notice of the House, said that he wished, as a warning to railway directors and companies, to state a case of gross recklessnese with which, after they had obtained their Bill, the directors of a company had ruined their own project, and lost the money of their shareholders. He should state neither names or places. The railway was connected with one of the largest railways in Eng land, and the facts were these. An estate had been bequeathed to a very learned and excellent lawyer as a trustee. The railway possessed the power of constructing wo:lis,and entering upon lands with very inadequate compensation to the owners in all the parishes named in the schedules They thought proper to make a deviation into another parish, which was not in the schedule. As the works proceeded, it was thought necessary to make a deviation into another parish that was not named in the schedule. T he agents of the com pany went to the occupiers of the land, and, offering them four times its value, induced them to give thei r consent to t h e deviation. But these persons who gave their consent were merely tenants for life, and they had nn power to give it. The land was vested in the learned person I have named, who was the trustee of certain infants, and he consequently could not consent without an Act of Parliament. The company enght to have stopped for another year, but it would not snit them, and they went on and finished the railway. Now he need not remind their Lordships of the situation in which the poor shareholders were placed by the act of their Board of Directors. They had invested their capital in this railway, never dreaming that such an act of plunder would be corn udtted by the directors, mere especially as those directors had the assistance, no doubt, of a solicitor and standing counsel. This was a new form of risk which railway speculators did not anticipate, and he trusted this warning would prevent private individuals, who scraped together a little money, from risking it in these gambling speculations. NEW ZEALAND. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE wished to put a question to his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies, relative to a petition of which he had given notice yesterday. The peti tion was front the Legislative Council of New South Wales, and complained of certain grievances with respect to the dis posal of land in that colony. He understood that it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to lay some papers bearing upon this subject before the other House of Parliament; if sueliwere the ease, he thought he would be better doing his duty to the petitioners to delay presenting the petition until those papers were before the country. Lord STANLEY had no hesitation in saying that the sub jeet was-one 01 great importance. He had received informa tion upon it from the Governor of the Colony of New Zea land, and in a few days it would be laid before the other House. lie thought it would be advisable that if they were to have any discussion on the subject it had better be delayed until that in formation was before their Lordships. Lord CLANRICARDE said that under those circumstances he would withdraw his motion for the present. THE FRANCHISE. Lord CLANRICARDE brought in a Bill for extending the elective franchise to persons who paid the income-tax. The object of the Bill was to extend it to annuitants, retired trades men, professional men, and others residing in furnished lodgings. The provisions of the Bill would be extended alike to cities, boroughs, and counties. He thought it would be better to reserve the discussion to the second stage, and he weuld simply move that the Bill be now read a first time. Lord STANLEY had no objection to allow the Bill to be read a first time, and concurred with the Noble Marquis in the delaying of the discussion for the present. He hoped, however, that his consenting to the first reading as a matter of course, would not lead the Noble Marquis to imagine that he assented to its novel principle. Perhaps the Noble Lord would say whether he intended the Bill to be permanent or not. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he did not, if the income-tax would be discontinued hereafter. He had, however, a conviction in his mind that the income-tax was intended to be a permanent measure. The Bill was then read a first time. CORONERS' INQUESTS. The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL moved for a return of the number of inquests which had been held upon children within the last twelve months ; and complained that the returns for the last eleven years were very defective, and in one case the Coroner had refused to make any return at all. The Duke of RICHMOND thought his Noble Friend was alluding to Irish Coroners, but he might apply to the Clerk of the Peace for the county for the return. The Noble Lord had better move for a return from the Coroner himself, and if he refused, their Lordships would let the gentleman know that they possessed plenty of power to compel his attend ance, and to make him pay his expenses. There were many abuses in the system of Coroners, and he thonght that it would be better to revise it altogether. With respect to the Coroners of England generally, he thought them a very highly respectable body. Lord CAMPBELL thought the House was bound to take this case into consideration, and he would suggest to the Noble Lord that he should move that the Coroner should forthwith make a return. The Earl of WICKLOW concurred in the suggestion of the Noble Lord. Lord DENISON thought that they had better not enter into any censure of this gentleman until they were in posses sion of the facts of the case. Lord CAMPBELL thought that this gentleman had al ready refused, and that he should he at once called upon by the House. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the rule when a return was ordered by the House of Lords was, to send to the Secretary of State, and he applied to the person who, in his judgment, ought to make it. After a conversation, in which Lord DENNIAN and the Marquis of LA NSDOWNE took part, The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL stated that his object was to bring the circumstances of the case under the notice of their Lordships. The Marquis of NORMANBY suggested, that the notice which had then been taken of the matter would be sufficent for the purpose. Lord WHARNCLIFFE suggested, that the Noble Earl the Earl of Mountcashel) should give notice, that he would call the attention of the House to the matter on Monday, and be (Lord NVharncliffe) would in the meantime communicate with the Secretary of State, and ascertain what the facts of [Le ease really were. The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL would assent to the propo sition of his Noble Friend. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought that this session enuld not pass without some alteration of the poor-law in Ireland. BASTARDY BILL. This Bill was read a third time and parsed. ItAILWAY CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION BILL. The report on this Bill was brought up, when The Earl of DALHOUSIE proposed several clauses as riders to the Bill, for regulating the appropriation of private roads, and for apportioning the compensation to be made for she appropriation of them by railway companies, which were adopted. The same clauses were also adopted in the Bill for Scotland. On the motion of the Earl of DALHOUSIE, those Bills were ordered to be printed and read a third time on Tuesday neat. RELIGIOUS GRANTS IN THE COLONIES. Lord MONTEAGLE moved for a return of all the grants which had been made for religion; purposes in the colonies, during the years 1840, 1841, and 1842, and the different sects to which they had been made. The rem n was granted, and the House then :idiom-LW. -- HOUSE OF COMMONS, Ap r il is The SPEAKEA took the Chair at Four o'clock Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE moved Taßtillthbee;gilleontadlor the Surrey and Sussex Roads (Sunday toll posit a filled-up Bill, signed by them in the Private Bill-Oldto de_ th.?, Committee on such Bill be revived, ande leave to sit and proceed on Monday next.—Agreed to. TUFNELL moved that the Committee for the Man.. ehester and Salford Waterworks be a ll owe d to sit next.—Agreed to. on Mond ay WEST YORKSHIRE RAILWAY. Mr. M. MILNES, and other Hon. Members, presented pe titions against the West Yorkshire Railway. The following Bills were severally read a second time and ordered to be printed. Oxford Mileways, St. Matthew ( Bethnal -green) Rectory, Spoad (Curt), Inelosure, Castle 1-0 i (Wexford) Docks, Lyme Regis Improvement, Market, and Watvrworks, Dublin Pipe Water, Claughton cute Grange (St. Andrew's) Church, Claughtoa cum Grange (St. John the Baptist's) Church, Kendal Reservoirs. AGRICULTURAL ANDRELAND COMMERCIAL BANK OF I. On the motion that the Agricultural and Commercial Bank of Ireland Bill be read a second time, Mr. WATSON said that his attention had been drawn to this Bill, and he thought that there were so many objections to it, that he should move that it be read a second time that day sit months. The object of this Bill was to wind up the affairs of the Agricultural and Commercial Bank of Ireland, and gave power to the Court of Chancery to make orders, and to act in the affairs of this company with all the efficiency necessary for winding up the affairs of the bank. This he conceived ought to be done by a public and not a private Act. Last session 4a Act was passed for winding up the affairs of public com panies, but that Act empowered the Court of Chan cery to investigate into the manner in which the busi- Jaen of the concern had been carried on; and if THE HORSE-GUARDS. Sir R. PEEL, in answer to a question from Mr. Grandy Berkeley, relative to certain reports from the Board of General Affairs, said he hoped the Hon. Member would have no ob jection to repeat the question on Monday next. STATE OF THE LABOURING CLASSES. Lord JOHN MANNERS wished to ask the Noble Lord the Member fur London when his Lordship intended to lay before the House the particulars of his motion relative to the state of the labouring classes in this country, for the dis cussion of which he had fixed the first of May? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he proposed to do so on Thursday next. there had been any defect or neglect in the conduct of i many Hon. Gentlemen for whom he entertained the highest a company which had stopped payment, a report was to be i respect, and at being obliged to differ more especially in opinion made to the Board of Trade, who had power to adjudicate with many Members from Ireland. He also felt regret at upon it. In 1842 a similar Act to this had been introduced being compelled to oppose tl-e measure of her Majesty's Go with 33 clauses, and when the Bill went into Committee all the vernment, which he was sure they brought forwent with the clauses had been struck out but two. Another was kindest dispositions towards Ireland.--( Hear.) But, as one passed in the case of the Imperial Bank of Manchester, of those who were in favour of the voluntary principle, in which the only power retained by the company was that Ihe felt compelled to vote against it. There were two charges of suing and being sued, and of winding up their affairs I brought against those rersons who, like himself, support e d t h e through a public officer. The Act of last sessi o n w as a good voluntary principle. They were charged, first, with concurring Act, and it was under such an Act as that that he thought in the former grant to Maynooth, and in the next place, the powers sought by this Bill ought to be exercised, and 1 they were charged with voting for a chimerical not by a private Act ; and he should therefore move that the project, which they had no chance of carrying out. Bill be read a second time that day six months. With regard to the first he believed it would be admitted, with- The SOLICITOR-GENERAL recommended the post- out dispute, that a new question now arose, for a permanent ponement of the second reading for a short time, in order to endowment by Bill was a very different thing from an give an opportunity of considering the subject, annual grant by vote.—( Hear.) It might be in some degree Mr. WATSON withdrew his amendment, and the Bill vas ordered to be read a second time on th a t d ay wee k . inconsistent with the voluntary principle that he had not opposed the grant to Maynooth, but he confessed he felt reluctant to Mr. MARTIN presented petitions from the Mayor and Cor. vote against the grant to Maynooth, out of respect to his poration of Bristol, against the Exeter Railway Bill; also peti- Roman Catholic brethren, and because that grant bad been tions from a Mr. John Parsons and another gentleman, praying to be heard by counsel againt the Bill. established by the Irish Parliament.—(Hear, hear. ) Nor did he think that the second charge was more valid. Mr. BROTHERTON presented a great number of peti- He was of opinion that if this grant were passed to the College Lions against the West Riding Railway Bill. of Maynooth the principle would not stop there. They would RAILWAY COMMITTEES, then be required to support the priesthood, and to build Lord 0. SOMERSET, on introducing the consideration churches, and the result would be that a recularly endowed of the Second Report of the Committee on Railways, moved the first resolution, that counse l s h ou ld open t h e procee di ngs 1 State Church would be established in Ireland. That this grant was opposed to the wishes of the people of England in railway measur es , b u t that they should be debarred the psi- ess sufficiently evidenced by the number of petitions which had vilege of summing up. The other resolutions were of a gene- poured in from all parts of the country against it. Ile did ral character, and he need not trouble the House with their not deny that a portion of this opposition might arise fro n details. He trusted the House would see no reason to object the old feeling which regarded with disapprobation all concer to the measure, and that it would be allowed to pass unani- sions to Ireland. A great deal of doubt existed as to the real mously. sentiments of the leader of the Irish people on this questic n. Lord HOWICK expressed his surprise that the Noble Lord The Honourable and Learned Member for the county had not brought the subject of proceedings before Railway of Cork had professed so many different principles Committees more distinctly under the notice of the House before on this subject that they might well doubt whether those Committees should have commenced their labours. The he were a voluntary agent or not. He could not conceive how Noble Lord and the House might remember, that in the debaee the Catholic clergy would accept of this grant to the College of which had taken place on the resolutions moved by the Hon. Maynooth, and refuse, on a future occasion, to accept of an Member for Inverness, the Noble Lord then p ro mised that. endowment for themselves. He could not see how the adop he should propose some alterations in the standing orders to tion of one should not carry them forward to the other. Fut guide the Committee in their decisions. The House was aware there was another matter which deserved consideration in the that one Committee under the present system decided on one language which had been held by the Flon. Member for Cork principle, and another Committee on another principle. There in the Repeal Association, and by some in that House—he were great principles involved in theconsideration of those cases, meant the argument of restitution. What did that mean? and he had expected that when the Noble Lord undertook Why, nothing short of the establishment of the Cathol c Church that this subject should be brought und er th e cons id era ti on o f on the ruins of the Protestant Church.—( Hear, hear.) Tithes the House by her Majesty's Government be would have done so were, originally, the property of the Catholic Church, and, if in a tangible form. These Committees were now about to the argument were enforced, they should be restored to that begin their labours, and yet the House was in dark- Church. No man was more averse to an Established Church ness as to the principles by which they were to be in Ireland than he was, whatever that Church might be, but guided.—( Hear, hear.) He was not prepared himself to he never wnuld consent to endow one Church at the expense introduce any resolution on the subject, but he thought there of another. He thought the Established Church a monstrous ought to be a general discussion as to what rules should be grievance, and had always consistently opposed it. He was adopted. He thought he ought to complain of the silence of in favour of the appropriation of the revenues of the Church Government on this question. to national purposes. The Hon. Member for Dundalk said a Mr. WILSON PATTEN thought that, if counsel were not great deal of Church property was the gift of private in allowed to sum up the advantages of contending lines, the dividuals. He (Mr. Crawford) had no objection that Church Committees would be deprived of very great assistance. property should be disposed of as the testators wished. He Mr. SHAW opposed the resolution. could not help feeling that there had b: en a breach of faith on Mr. PAK INGTON thought it would be much better to the part of the Catholics in supporting this measure—a breach leave these questions to the decision of the Committees them- of faith towards those who supported the voluntary principle. selves. He felt that the Catholics, in supporting the measure, Sir GEORGE GREY did not think it would be prudent were actin , ' inconsistently with their former declaration'.to let a counsel state the case for his c li en t s b e f ore th e i r oppo- He heard of no intention to extend civil liberty to IrelareL rents had made out theirs, for that would be giving one party He did not hear of any intention to extend the franchise—he an unfair advantage over the other.—( Hear. ) did not hear of any intention to make an addition to the num- Lord G. SOMERSET said he con c ei ve d i t would be better ber of Irish Members. The landlords' claims had been ad to let Committees, in all cases, exercise their own discretion mitted. He hail not heard of any intention to grant such an as to the manner in which the proceedings should be carried extension of civil rights as would tend to check agitation. The on—( Hear, hear)—for it had been found extremely difficult to people had been deceived by the agitation for Catholic eman lay down rules for the guidance of Committees in this respect ; cipatien. They would be deceived by the agitation for re therefore, it had been deemed a more prudent course to leave to peal. It would end in the endowment of the Catholic the Committees the power of making such arrangements as the Church without any extension of civil liberties to the people. merits of each case should require. However, he now begged They would be deceived by the repeal agitation as they had to say that he would withdraw the resolution. been deceived by the emancipation agitation. They had sub- RECAL OF LORD ELLENBOROUGH. scribed large sums of money to support that agitation, but the Mr. HUME said that his motion for the production of cor- people would find out, after all the sacrifices they hid respondence connected with the recal of Lord Ellenborough made, that they would be deceived. lie wondered bow stood for Thursday next. He now wished to give notice that the Irish Members could held forth this measure as he did not intend to bring it forward until the Government was a boon to his countrymen. Not a single petition had been freed from the annoyance on the Maynooth grant.—(A laugh.) presented from the people of Ireland in favour of this measure. RAILWAYS. The agitation would not'cease in consequence of this measure. Lord HOWICK wished to know from the Noble Lord op- It had been said that when Catholic Emancipation was granted posite (Lord G. Somerset) whether the reports of the Board of all agitation would cease. Had such been the case? He con- Trade would be laid before the Committees which were to sidered the measure was totally Conservative, and having only meet on Monday? for its object to sustain the Established Church in Ireland. He Lord G. SOMERSET was understood to say that no order maintained that no benefit could be obtained for Ireland ; this had been made on the subject. very course of policy would not be assented to by the English Lord HO WICK only hoped that no motion would be made people. If the grant was persisted in, contrary to the feelings at a late hour of the night, when only a few Members might o f th e people of this country, it would be prejudicial to the in be present. terests of Ireland in the minds of the people of England. As Mr. LABOUCHERE said he understood that the reports a friend to the country, and having a wish for the principle of of the Board of Trade would be laid before the Committees civil and religious liberty, he would give a vote in opposition to as a matter of course. this measure. Mr. DUNCOMBE said that the standing order on this sub- Lnrd C. HAMILTON said that he would take this oppor ject was a most objectionable one. It was smuggled into the tunity of stating his opinion on this question, and the grounds House last session, and he would take the sense of the House on which he would found his rote on the measure. He must with a view to rescind it on Monday. say that, of all the arguments he heard in Ireland in favour of Mr. AGLIONBY said that he thought the postponement the repeal of the union, he never heard one stronger than of the decision till Mondayevening would put the Commit- that the Irish Roman C a th o li cs were not p l aced in the same tees to great inconvenience, e and the parties who had theiposition as the Dipenters in this country. He never thought agents and witnesses in town to considerable expense. He that any other argument justified the repeal. They gave thought the House ought to meet to-morrow, and come to a thirty-five-thousand pounds as an endowment to 600.000 Dis. decision. senters, and they were refusing an endowment of twenty- Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET ma d e an exp l anat i on across the table which was not di s ti nct l y h ear d i n t h e gallery. six thousand pound s to 6,000,000 of Roman Catholics in Ire• land. The Hon. Gentleman had made use of another arga- Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that the motion of the Noble ment which did not appear to him (Lord C. Hamilton) to be Lord would by no means interfere with the motion which he very felicitous. He had said that this measure would be the intended to make on Monday. The reports which had peen cause of creating political agitation. Now, he (Lord C. Hamil submitted to the Committee ought to be accompanied with cer- ton) was of opinion that it was the want of such measures that tain documents from the Board of Trade, containing the grounds had caused agitation in Ireland.—( Hear.) If this Bill had on which they founded their reports. It was the public been forced from the Government by fear and intimidation, or opinion that there were ex parte statements made to the Board if it had come in an unwilling spirit from a reluctant Govern of Trade, and that there was gross partiality on the part of the ment, he did think they would net be justified in granting it. Railway Department of that Board. The object of his mo- But what was the fact? The Government had come forward tion was that certain documents should accompany the reports spontaneously and offered the boon with a good grace, and, of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade ' stating the therefore, it would be' received in 1 -eland as a boon.— reasons why they recommended the di sm i ssa l or adoption of a ( Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had heard some Bill. This he wished to propose now by way of amendment. Flononrable Members speak as prophets, but he contended Lord HOWICK said that he should make no objection to that they had already been put out of court as prophets, for the motion of the Neble Lord, but he should take this oppor- this proposition had not resulted in the disastrous consequences tunity of calling the attention of the House to the nature of the in Ireland that they had prognosticated.—(Hear, hear.) He reports. There was a distinct understanding that her felt justified in asserting that the measure had met with no op- Majesty's Government had no obj ec ti on t o comp l y position from the Protestants compared with that offered to it with the motion of the Honourable Member for by the Dissenters of both countries, for the latter had been in - Finsbury. He thought that the House had great reason to • tigated to do so by jealous and disaffected feelings.—( Hear. ) complain of the great want of care exhibited on the part of the He had often used the term " excited" in speaking of this organ of the Board of Trade. It was the duty of an officer of measure, and he should confess he felt that no petition had that department to have ascertained earlier the necessity of been presented here that was not the result of excited feeling, making such a motion ; it should have been brought forward for in the course of this debate he had heat d language made tt,e when it would have been practicable. He thought that the of that could only emanate from very excited feelings.—( Hear. Honse had a great right to complain. It aas only another hear.) He thought many of the statements, fervid and example of the system of carelessness which from first to last eloquent though they were, of the increased dangers to the characterised the fiscal business of that department Protestant Church, arising from this increased grant, were THE WAR IN SINDE. wholly without foundation. It was stated that a liberality like On the motion that the order of the day for resuming the this was dangerous, but he would ask the Hon. Members adjourned debate be read, who used that argument whether the remission of Mr. HUME begged to ask the Noble Lord opposite (Lord the penal code, and of other laws peculiarly oppressive to Ire. ccelyn) whether the documents he (Mr. Hume) had moved land, bad not softened the asperities which the people of that ter relative to Sinde, had been laid on the table? country cherished towards England, and swept away in a great Lord JOCELYN said that some of the estimates moved for degree the prejudices which had kept them asunder?—(Hear, by the Hon. Member, relative to certain receipts and expenses, hear.) And would they say that this measure would not be tat been received, and he hoped to have them completed very followed by a like happy result ? He thought that the course shortly. which had been pursued with respect to the Roman Cathotice in times past, was more calculated to disseminate their princi ples than any other which could have been adopted ' • and as those mistake n e ff or t s to put d own t h e Roman Catholic religion had totally failed, as they had only strengthened th e hatred which un f or t una t e l y they had always cherished towards the professors of the other faith, he (Lord C. Hamilton) thought that now they should try whether a greater degree of cordiality and sympathy would not induce them to lay aside the prejudices they had so long retained. Hon. Members, perhaps, would recollect the old fable of the man and his cloak, and how the more the storm did beat, the closer did he wrap his cloak around him, until, the tempest over, he was induced, by the genial rays of the sun, to loose its folds by degrees, and at last to throw it aside altogether.— ( Cheers.) They had been as the storm to Ireland, and they had been unsuccessful. Now let them try the sunshine.— (Cheers.) It was notorious that the state of Maynooth was not such as was contemplated be its founders, and they would be only continuing the evil by perpetuating the present grant, and the present system. For h is own part, if he were asked to decide on that night whether the present system should he continued, or whether it should be at once dissolved, he was afraid that lie should support the latter proposition. He thought that an unnecessary degree of alarm had been exhibited by several Hon. Members with regard to the effect of educating the Irish priests. Surely, if those Hon. Members were assured that Protestantism was based upon truth, and he (Lord C. Hamil ton) for one wasfully convinced of it, they should rather rejoice in the spread of education, because they were all aware that dark ness and superstition and ignorance were co-existent as certainly as were light and truth. This was not only, in his opinion, an equitable grant, but it was enhanced by the manner and the spirit in which it was offered by the Government. It had been offered in a manner calculated not to wound, in the slightest degree, the feelings of the most sensitive ; and he was sure that the Irish people would observe that all personal or party motives had been merged in an anxious desire to give them some measure of justice. They would observe the inconve nience, and he might say the odium to which the Ministry had subjected themselves in bringing forward this measure, and he trusted the recollection of it would sink deeply into their hearts, and be remembered with lively gratitude. The debate, he was glad to see, had been distinguished by the absence of all political topics which might tend to resuscitate bitter or angry feelings, and with the view of doing away in a greater degree with the prejudices which now existed against this Chtholic seminary, he might perhaps be permitted to sug gest that the new institution, for he could call it no other, should be removed as far as possible from its present locality of Maynooth. They knew from the account given by the Right Hon. Baronet of the present state of the building, that the public would gain nothing by the attempt to repair it, and he conceived that as they should be obliged to rebuild it, i$ would be wiser to remove its site and change the name which at present was a very rallying point for the exhibition of political animosity.—( Loud cheers.) He trusted that thus regenerated its new name would be the harbinger of a better state of things for Ireland ; while the old name, with its associations, should be forgotten—(Cheers) —and in the meantime he would pray of those Hon. Members who had foreboded the most direful consequences from the passing of this measure, to suspend their judgments, and to give the pro position time to produce its fruits, and he did hope that the re sult would be a greater degree of peace, and comfort, and edu cation in Ireland; and an extended confidence in the justice of the English nation.—( Cheers. ) Mr. MUNTZ rose and said that they saw strange things— ( Laughter)-and they heard strange things—( Continued laughter)—but nothing that he ever saw or heard, however strange, was to him so very strange, as the change that had taken place in the speeches and opinions of Noble Lords and Hon. Members.--( Laughter.) Their memories were clearly affected.—( Continued laughter.) He recollected that it, the first, when he had the honour of sitting in that House, every Catholic question was a battle-field for presonality and party. ( Hear, hear.) He recollected, and they might recollect, that the vote of want of confidence in the Ministry was upon a Catholic question.—( Hear bear.) They might recollect that the House decided thee it had no confidence in a Government which yielded concessions to the Irish Catholics —( Hear, hear.) They might r ecollect, also, that these arguments fre quently ended in personal disputes; and if be remembered aright, once- in a duel. lie would yield to no man in 'hat House or in the country, in support of toleration to all classes and sects of religion ; but that was one of the principal reasons why he was opposed to this measure. Ile thought this a paltry and pitiful measure which Government ought to be heartily ashamed of. If the grant were truly for the purposes of education, as stated by the Right Hon. Baronet, he (Mr. Aimee) would allow him to ask a grant as large and as hand some as he liked; lout let him not tell him that this grant was for the purposes of education. Education of whom ? Of a few Catholic priests, who mould, in their turn, give edu cation to the people? Was it a principle, he would ask, of the Catholic priesthood to communicate more? oiea r. ) Did Ile they waa allow m n at them an xi the education they themselves received-to those beneath them ? The only education they gave was an exposition of the Sacred Scriptures according to their own plans and principles. What ous.tothtahtinekverfyor mee themselves .should ?— b e allowed the free • think it fair , exercise of his relig ion , but he did not that he (Mr, Muntz) for hear -) Let e should be asked to pay (Hear, He ___v r ery man pay for his own religion.— his.—(Cheer s ) .. e ( _N a l_. Muntz) asked no man to pay for He ll eh bigot e b t ee t a told that he was a bigot.— (Laughte r.) suffered too much both fis ( Great laughter.) He had person and pocket to be a bigot, GRANT TO MAYNOOTH. —( Hear, hear.) He had within the last ten years been persecuted, not prosecuted, and if he had not had the means of defence himself, -he should have been cast into a gaol, —( Hear, hear)—and now was he to be told that he was a bigot. Of all the debates that had been brought before the House since he had entered it, none of them had ever exhibited so extraordinary a species of reasoning as that one. The Hon. Member for Pontefract had enlightened them on this question, and what did he say ? He felt in his con science that it was impossible to justify the Right Hon. Baro net on any other ground than that of expediency.—( Hear, hear.) Expediency. therefore, was the better •pt inciple. ( Hear, hear.) In fact, in all debates in that House having re. lation to Ireland, expediency was the rule, and principle was the exception. If Hon. Members believed that this was a safe because a final measure, they would find themselves mistaken. Mr. O'Connell, in his honest speech in Conciliation- Hall, attributed to agitation the measure which was now be fore the House. He thanked Conciliation-hall for it, and stated that they would take that in receipt, and wait for what they could further get. Did they recollect the Catholic Emancipation Bill ? Did they recollect the agitation for re. peal? He thought they would find that every large concession had paved the way for fresh demands. Another Mem ber had risen, the representative for Nottinghamshire (Lord Lineoln). The Noble Lord said that inasmuch as Government had thought fit to hold up the cup of bliss to the lips of the Roman Catholics, that House would not be justified in dashing it to the ground. Were they to be told that they had no right to judge of what was brought before the House by the Frime Minister? Why, in that case, the sooner they went home to their wives and firesides the better. —(Laughter. ) The Prime Minister, in that case, would be a despot, and they would be his slaves.—( Hear, hear.) Their occupation would be gorie.—( Laughter.) lie did net see the Right Honourable Baronet in his place, and he had a great objection to speak of any man behind his back hut he had said in that House before that he did not care whe ther the Right Hon. Paronet or the Noble Lord governed the country. It was a toss up between them.—(Laughter.) But now his opinion was entirely cliang:d. This measure brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet, after he had climbed into power by the avowal of certain principles, looked as if, without any reason, he turned round upon his friends and sought pro tection from his enemies.—( Hear, hear.) If a man deceived him (Mr. Murez) once, he believed he would de ceive him always, no matter were he the Prime Minister or the lowest person in the country, and he would never have confidence in that man again. The Hon. Member for Canterbury stated that by giving a good education to the priests they would lose their influence over the people, and that by making the priests above the people would render them useless. It was said also by a Noble Lord that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government was the best hand at dressing up a mets in that House ; he might have gone further and stated that he was better able to bait a trap than any other Gentleman in the House.--( Laughter. ) When he came forward with the property tax he caught all the- Gentlemen at his side of the House, and they complimented him on the measure which he brought forward. And what did he do how ? He consented to conciliate the people of Ireland with a grant to their clergy, and he baited his trap with education, and he caught all the gentlemen on the Oppo s;tion side of the House. Several gentlemen told him that, though they ought to vote against t he measure from principle, and ridicule it on account of the men by whom it was intro duced, yet they could not oppose it as it was for educational purposes. That was the bait, and it was well placed, for he caught them altogether.—( Laughter. ) The great question was, if the Irish wanted priests, why did they not pay for their education? But that was easily answered by them. They said that there was the absenteeism, which drained the country, and they ought not on that account to pay their priests. If their gentry go to other countries to spend six millions of money per annum, they cou'd not blame them (the English) for not paying their priests for them.—( Hear, hear.) What was the real position of Ireland? Let them look back to the year when the income.tax was introduced. There was at that time no income-tax laid upon Ireland. A spirit duty anti a stamp duty were introduced in its stead, the former of which was afterwards taken off. Then they were told that they ought to pay for the support of the priests, be cause the Irish were in need. Could not they subscribe 10,0001. a year for the repeal? Could not they subscribe 10,0001. to anything they liked for the sake of agitation ?—( Hear, hear.) But they could not subscribe for the education of the priests. They had ample means for these purposes, and if they wanted the priests educated foe the sake of educating their poor, let them ply for it. When they educated the Roman Catholic priests, what then were they to do with them ? They must pay them ; and when they paid them, how could they pay every other dissenting priest in this country, even down to the merest " ranter." He had heard in the course of the debate a hun dred remarks against, the measure, but he had not heard one single remark in its favour.—( Hear, hear.) It was alleged by Hon. Members that there was a great feeling existing in this country against this measure ; and they were quite right, for such a feeling was generally entertained. There was a great dislike exhibited in England against the Roman Catholic priests, for they made converts wherever they could. He was trot a bi g ot—he wished to tolerate every reli gion, but he was not an advocate for paying for another reli gion when he thought his own the best. He would allow them to enjoy their own opinions, but he did not like to pay for the religion of other people out of the Consolidated Fund. He did not understand how gentlemen on his side of the House, who formerly voted against religion being paid fur out of the Consolidated Fund, could now vote for it.—( Hear. ) It was because they were caught in the trap laid by the Right Hon. Bat onet which had education for its bait. He would conclude his remarks by repeating what he had al ready said, and which he was sorry the Right Hon. Baronet was not present to hear, that he was a very great friend to principle and steadiness, and therefore he was bound on all occasions reasonably to support them; and if the Government did net act with principle they should go on continually chang ing them until they got a Government which would satisfy the country. Mr. NEVILLE addressed the Home in a few words, which were quite inaudible in the gallery, in consequence of the ge neral noise. He was understood to support the measure. Mr. BELLEW said that he would not give his vote in favour of this measure, as he agreed with other Ho nourable Gentlemen in thinking that it was introduced in order to predispose the minds of the people of Ireland to other measures, and that it would tend to do away with great prejudices which had been encouraged in this country. The people of Ireland were no w suffering under the payment of the Established Church, he thought - that it displayed great sense on their parts to exhibit such readiness to receive this grant. It had been said that it was hard giving money to a Catholic College when there was no endowment to the Pro testant Church for education. He could not conceive the weight of that argument. What was the difference whether money was given for education, or education was given whereby those who received it would afterwards gain a livelihood ? Take Trinity ;College, for instance. A Catholic could have no advantages in that College. There were seventy scholarships, twenty-two fellowships, and 40,000/. exclusively * devoted to the objects of that College, which was exclusively Protestant. There were 150,000/. a year endow ments to Diocesan schools and to Charles the Second's schools. It was said that there would be no control exercised by the Government over the College. But it was no matter what the control might be, the students would receive a Roman Catholic education nevertheless.—( Cheers.) In other countries there was a regular arrangement between the Catholic Church and the State. But this was not admitted to be an endowment it was only a grant to a College—it was not for a whole clergy, so that there was no attempt to incorporate them with the State. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the various meetings which were held in this country against the grant, and thought that the language made use of at them and by several Hon. Members in the House was sufficient to rouse the indignation of the Irish people. The Hon. Member for Newcastle, who was remarkable for the strong description of his language, stated that the priests had no ties to prevent them from being rebellious; but he forgot that they had the ties of sickness and sorrow, and that they had duties to perform which those who had wives and families would be expected to discharge.—( Hear.) He could not sit down without thanking those Protestant Members who had, in direct defiance of the opinio n o f t h e i r constituencice, supported this measure. No doubt it wou ld l ay them open to the severe censure of their constituent s , but the' would have the consolation of knowing that the course, the liberal and wise course they had pursued on that occasion was calculated to lead to the existence of better feelings between the inhabitants of the two countries Mr. J. COLLETT wished to know from the Righ, Honourable Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Govern ment, if the debate on the grant to Maynooth should terminate this evening, when it was intended to propose that the Houee should go into Committee on the Bill ? Sir R. PEEI.—I trust there will be no objection to the House going into Committee on the Bill on Monday next.— ( Hear, hear.) The debate has now been protracted to a very long period, and as the Government have oaly two days, namely, Monday and Friday, for bringing on Government measures, I do hope that if the debate should close to-night there will be no objection to the vote being taken on Monday. ( Hear, he-ar.) I beg to assure Hen. Members that no undue advantage whatever is intended to be taken in any way ; and, therefore, after the debate closes to-night, I shall make the motion in form that the House go into Committee on the Bill on Monday next.—( Hear, hear. ) Sir R. INGLIS said that the country felt se deeply inte rested in this measure that he could not at once, without con sulting his friends on that side of the House, give his con sent ; and he, therefore, hopedhis Right Hon. Friend would not ask him to answer the question upon the instant. Lord J. RUSSELL said, with respect to taking the vote of money from the Consolidation _Fuitd, for the purposes of the Bill, lie supposed that Angst bp involved in the mo ti on o f t h e Hon. Member for Sheffield. He supposed the consideration of the Bill in Committee conhl , not take place before some sub sequent day—Friday, perhap§., Sir PEEL said the Committee which he proposed for Monday was not - a,. COMMittee on the Bill, but a Committee of the whole House.for the purpose of taking the sense of the House on the money vote included in the Bill, and afterwards the Bill would be referred to the ordinary Committee. The lion. Member for Sheffield had given notice of a motion for Monday. He did not complain of the length to which this debate had been protracted, and he hoped that considering the discussion which had already taken place, and the discussion which must necessarily occur in its subse quent stages, there would he no objection to their proceeding with the money vote on Monday. The presentation of petitions connected with Maynooth was then proceeded with. Mr. HINDLEY presented forty-eight petitions against the Maynooth grant from the following places : From the parish church at Ashton-under-Lyne, signed by the clergy and congregation ; from the clergy and congregation of St. Peter's, Ashton-under-Lyne ; from the Surrey Chapel, signed by nearly one thousand persons ; from the inhabitants of Ship rith, Cambridgeshire; Yate and Pickup Bank, Lancashire; Mortock, and its Vicinity, Somersetshire ; Waterford, Ire land ; Walsingham, Norfolk ; Snoring, Norfolk ; Gre a t Jotham Protestant Dissenters, Corsbam, Wilts ; Berkeley, Gloucestershire ; Pembroke Dock ; Swansea, Glamorganshire; Calton, Norfolk ; Pisgah Chapel, Flint; Lady Huntingdon's Chapel, Gloucester; Went, Salop; Salem Chapel, Woolwich; Vernon Chapel, Pentonville ; Salem Chapel, Otley, York ; Bangor, North Wales ; Barrowden and Morcott, Rutland ; Cannon-street, Donferline; South Creek, Norfolk; Bap tists, Church-stresg Chapel, Blackfriars-road ; Heptenstall, York ; Wesleyan Methodists, Lostock ; Primitive Methodists, Baildon, York ; Shipley, York ; Bradford, York ; Helough ton, South Raynham, Norfolk ; Staleybridge ; Hyde, Che shire; Wesleyan Methodist Association, Warlaggan, Wilts; Pilperro, Cornwall; Clithero, Probruan, and Caybrennte, Cornwall ; Tabernacle Chapel, Northwick, Dnloc ; Calvinistic IN TG l aiv e rb th 2ar se theti Methodists, ,c Societytill a c p n e h l, a o m oi ,dr r Der bigh ; Tre v ena, Brecon ; N ew -street : r , ca ß t S hes hotreer ; ditch ; Free Church, Teachers of Sun day Schools, H arford, Esse :" Mr. LOCKHART presented a petition from the Synod cf Glasgow and Ayr against the grant to Maynooth. Petitions against the grant were presented by M r . B e ll, Taylor, Mr. Park e (f rom Devon), Mr. Mr. Greenal, Mr. Ha milton, ROEBUCK and Col. Acton. p resented a petition from some place, whose name we did not catch, in favour of the m easure . Petitions ag a i ns t the Maynooth g rant were presented by M r. C. Round, Mr. Plumptre (8), Dr. Bovir , ing ifr Sir Easthope, -; T lTnes, Mr. Leicester; Mr. Hastie, from Paisle f uneornbe; Cripps ; Lord Ebrington, from Plyinoutt Mr. Bright, from Nor thumberland; Mr. Blewitt, ilioa mouth ; Mr. Grogan, from Dublin ; Mr. Macauramy, Edinburgh ; Mr. Darby, Captain Polhill, and Mr. C. Bruce,fro from Elgin. Sir C. NAPIER presented a petition from the Protestant Dissenters meeting at Portland-street Chapel, in favour of the grant to Maynooth College. Petitions against the grant were presented by Lord Ashley, Mr. G. Bankes, Mr. Sharman Crawford, and other Hon. Members. Captain TAYLOR remarked that, n the course of the de bate, it had been said that the opposition to this measure out of doors was confined to the Dissenters, but lie differed from this opinion. He knew that the Protestants of both countr i es looked upon this measure with anything but indifference. They thought the measure was quite unnecessary, and complained that the leaders of their party had basely betrayed them. The predecessors of the present Government would never have dared to introduce such a measure, and as he co ns id ered it was fraught with danger to the Protestant interests of the nation, he felt it to be his bounden duty to oppose it. Sir FREDERICK TRENCH declared his intention to give the measure his most unanimous support, notwithstanding he had presanted several petitions from his own constituency against it. He could not, however, conceal from hi mse lf that they totally mi s u n d ers tood the question, and when th ey came to read the discussions on the subject, or more minutely to look into the q u e s ti on , he was satisfied they would s ee the expediency of the measure. In Ireland there were up war d s o f 70,000 Roman Catholics, who existed in a state of ignorance and bigotry that to him was truly alarming. Their priests had daily intercourse with them, and it must be evident that, if that priesthood were better educated than they now are, its benefits would be extended to their flock. Mr. COBDEN, who at first spoke in such a low tone of voice as to be quite inaudible in the gallery, said it would appear that great apprehension existed in the public mind that the House was going to endow the Roman Catholics of Ireland, for three fourths of the petitions which had been presented to that House went upon the supposition that they were going to pass a mea sure to endow the Roman Catholic priesthood. Now since the Hon. Member for Birmingham, who had displayed less of his wonted sagacity on that occasion, had sat down, he had thought it to be his duty to go and peruse the Bill, and see what it was they were going to do. He found by the preamble of that Bill that they were going to amend two Acs which were passed in the Parliament of Ireland, providing means for the ethication of persons professing the Roman Catholic religkin. He looked over this Bill to see if he could find anything which could in the smallest degree lead to the impression that they were going to enslow the Roman Catholic religion, and he could find nothing of the sort. Now if any Hon. Gentle man who was in the secrets of the Government. and who might he better informed than himself on the measure, and who thus h a d an a d v:.ntage over him, t h ey might put a different construction upon the measure.—(Hear, bear.) It was perfectly competent for any Honourable Gen tleman to put what ccnstruction he pleased upon it, but , he confessed it did not appear to him that the consequences o` this Bill would he the endowment of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. But he thought it was consistent, as far As he was concerned, to vote for the measure, because, in his opinion, it was simply aed purely an educational grant. If the Right Hon. Baronet who was at the heal of the Government would follow the example of the Hon. Ale.nber for London, and were to express a desire for his consent to endow the Ronson Catholic clergy of Ireland, even if both parties in that House were to unite with him, lie ventured to say the country would never suffer him to carry such a measure, tier eorda they hope in their day to endow the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland out of the consolidated fund ? The excitement which existed in the country in consequence of the misappre hension which prevailed upon what they were then about to do, most have convinced the House that he was right in what he was saying. The grant was simply for educational pur poses, and involved no principle.—( Cries of " No, no.") she Honourable Member for Oxford cheered, and he presumed ironically, at his assertion that there was no principle involved in the question, but would the Right Hon. Gentleman permit him to ask if the government were to be thrown upon the question, and her Majesty sent for the Right Hon. Gentleman to ferns another Government, would not his first measure be to propose a vote of 9,0001. to the College of Maynooth ?—( Cheers.) If he was right, then what was it but a question of 17,0001. ? And how would they pre sent themselves to the eyes of Europe, who had witnessed the excitement, if the grant were negatived? Why, it was a per secution that was never heard of in the annals of religious his tory. Hon. Members were not contending that there should be no Maynooth. No. Hon Members said there should be education at Maynooth ; but it should be a defective education. No, they did not contend that there should be no College, but :that the College should be like a barrack and not a public school.—(Cheers.) He did net see that there was the least necessity for going into discussion as to the merits MAYNOOTH GRANT.-ADJOURNED DEBATE. The order of the day was then read. ' Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he felt deep regret at being compelled to separate mself on the present occasion fr9r4 THE SUN, LONDON, SATThRDAY MORNING. APRIL 19, 1845. of the education provided at IMaynooth, because no one proposrd to put an end to it. He could see no objection to vote a suns of money for giving 7 000,000 persons proper religious education. They had now in Ireland a system of national education, for which they voted from 70..000/. to 90,0001. a year, to instruct the children of both Catholics sot Protestants, e they would not give a good education to those men who are to be the pastors and religious instructors of those children when they advanced in years. He had made some inquiries, and he found the means provided at Maynooth were any thing but sufficient for giving the students a liberal educa tion. Now, surely, if they gave these priests some instruc tien in chemistry and natural philosophy it would make them more acceptable pastors to the farmers and farm-labourers of Irelind.—( Loud cheers.) Then he could see no possible objection to the grant, although s cme Honourable Mem bers complained of the system of separating the education of the clergy from that of the laity. Why this system was not confined to the Roman Catholics for he believed it was the custom of the Protestant Dissenters of this country. to educate their young men intended for the ministry apart from the laity, and for his part he could see no objection whatever to such an arrangement. Again, it was objected that this grant was for a peculiar religion of one Feet, and he begged to remind those who opposed it on that ground, that they voted last year 55,0001., which by the report of the Privy Council went to the national schools of England. Now, a clergyman stands at the head of these na tional schools wi h a catechism in his hand, and no one was allowed to enter the schools who did not learn the catechism. That 55,000/. came from the consolidated fund ; and they made large grants to the Universities, from which the Roman Catholics derived no benefit, and yet they were con tending that it was wrong in principle to make these grants. It was too bad to apply N. principle to their own case, sod refuse it to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. He did not think that was the place for discussing the theelogical part of the question ; and he would here remark, that if they had more logical and less theological questions discussed in that House, the interests of the nation would be better attended to. —(Laughter.) But that was the last place for discussing theo logical subjects; and a worse body of men could hardly set themselves up to be a synod for settling theological matters. He had received many adverse communications from the country upon this subject, but he had no right to complain of this ; but still he must support the measure, because he be lieved it would not only be acceptable to, but greatly benefit the Irish people. Indeed he was happy to have an opportunity in that House to give a vote without violating his principles which would be acceptable to the Irish people. His first act as a public man was to publish the evils under which Ireland had been suffering ; and he could not on that occasion re.. rein from giving a conscientious vote in favour of the measure, notwithstanding it would be in direct opposition to the re monstrance.; of those for whom he entertained a filets respect, and with whom he had long acted. But he should have the sa tisfaction of knowing, that he had given a salutary vote in favour of a measure which he believed was the first step towards healing the festering wounds of Ireland.—(Cheers. ) Mr. FERRAND agreed that the question could not be settled in that House. It would have to be submitted to the country. They had opposed the great principles which had placed the Ministers in power, and he would read some of the pledges which had been given by the Ministerial adherents at the last general election, and show them in connexion with their conduct before the House and the country. Was there any Member of that House who had forgotten that the cry raised at the last general election was—" The Church in danger." But, since then, how had they departed from the principles which they professed before their constituents, and how had they violated the promises they had given to those who had sent them to Parliament? He only wished that the Right Hon. Baronet would again appeal to the coun try, and give the people an opportunity of expressing their ,judgment; but on the present occasion he would judge the Ministers out of their own mouths. The small party called the Conservative party—'or now it was a small party—felt that he had misled and betrayed there. He would, as a mem ber of that party, appeal to the people of England to call upon their Sovereign to dissolve that House, in order that they might have an opportunity of expressing their sentiments on the proceedings of those whom they had sent to represent them there. At the lass general election, her Majesty's Ministers had stated that they had opposed those who preceded them in the Irish Edu cation Bill, because they believed that the effect of its policy would be to place the whole of the education in the hands of the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland. A Gentleman, a Member of the other House of Parliament, on tlie hustings at Guildford had made this public declaration, that the Members of her Majesty's Government had entered on office solely in consequence of their adherence to those principles which they now seemed to repudiate. —( Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen might cry "hear, hear," but what would be the position they would hold in that House and the country when he had exposed them. That Hon. Gentleman had declared that their possession of power would have this good effect—that by the exclusion of the Whig,' from power they would at last have the opportunity of preventing mischief, if they had not the ability to do much good. They had resisted, and successfully resisted, the wilder schemes of Radical demolition—he had declared, that if the Church had to fear the hostility of violence and insidious foes, he would ask her Majesty's Government where those insidious foes now where, and he would tell them that it was upon the Treasury bench, and in the list of her :Majesty's Ministers, that they would find the insidious foes. of the Church of Eng land. They had been told that when the Tithe Commutation Bill was passed, that it was to promote, through every portion of the country, harmony and peace in Ireland. What was said by Lord Lyndhurst ? That it was calcu lated to inflict grievous injury, and he qnoted the words of Lord Melbourne, that it was calculated to give a heavy blow and great discouragement to Protestantism in that country. He had praised Dr. Lefroy as an active and zealous sentinel, but he would ask where was now the honest and zealous sentinel? What had been the expressions of Lord Stanley on the hustings at Lancaster? That the cup of their iniquity was full. The Attorney-General for Ireland, during the contest at the last election for the University of Dublin, had declared that the Protestant Church was the grand safe guard of the State in Ireland. There the Right Hon. Gentleman sat, and now, in voting for this Bill, whether he still thought the same of the value of the Protestant Church, and whether her Majesty's Ministers hail now redeemed the pledges which they had given at the last election. But there was one paper which, at that election, had been placarded on the walls of every borough and - county town in England. It was called the Tamworth manifesto; and he should like to call the attention of the House, and espe cially of the First Lord of the Treasury, for that paper showed that the Right Hon. Baronet had himself adopted the whole of those measures in effice which When out of office he opposed. Whatever nilght be the opinions of the Whigs, there was one thing for which he respected them ; when they professed an opinion they held to it; and he firmly believed that the Whigs were upright, honourable, and honest men as compared with the present Minister. When the First Lord of the Treasury had addressed his censtituente he had endeavoured t'; support the principles of Conservatism, and had stated that he feared the progress of those principles which had originated in the French Revolution of 1830; but he would tell the Right Honour• able Gentleman that a great revolution had been effected by himself, after 1829, in the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Bill.—( Hear, hear.) He had feared the pre valence of those principles, but he (Mr. Ferrand) would tell the Right Honourable Baronet that greater changes had been produced in this count by his measures, than any which had been effected by the rrench Revolution. [he Right Hon. Baronet had said, that when these changes had been effected, that it was necessary to raise up a great Conserva tive party. That party had been raised, and on it the Right- Hon. Baronet had come come into power, but where, he would ask, was their great Conservative party now ? They hid frir : their great motive of action attachment to the institutions in Church and State, and it was their object to maintain those institutions. And whatever might be the feeling of the Members of that House, he eould assure them that he, as a Protestant Member for a Protestant constitu ency, could tell them, that this Bill was looked upon with alarm by all the constituencies in the north of England. The Right * Honourable Baronet had taunted the Roman Catholic Members of that House with having fo> ea-ten the pledges which they had given to the Government, but he ( Mr. Ferrand) would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that the people of England would taunt him with hav ing broken all Isis pledges of attachment t o the institutions the country ; and he could assure him that the whole weight and respectability of the country was fearfully agitated and excited by the measure which he had introduced. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated on coming into power they would only retain it by continuing. in their favour the confidence of the people and the weight of public opinion. Where, he would ask, was the weight of public opinion now? As in 1 et l .3, not one-twentieth part of the population had expressed even the slightest desire for the passing of this Bill.—( Hear. ) The Right Hon. Baronet had come in with a majority of 91. He had filched power from the Noble Lord opposite, and had professed to walk in the direct path, and in the light of the British constitution ; but he would beg to say that it was in the darkness rather than in the light that the Right Hon. Ba ronet desired to tread. On March 5, 1829, the Right Hon, Baronet had stated that in bringing in the Bill for Roman Catholic Emancipation he discarded all consideration of reli gious principles, and that it was a . measure of Stat e policy—and of State policy only. Th a t his object was to give an equality of rights to the Roman Catholic population, and that if he supposed that any measure would result likely to be injurious to the Established Church, he would be the last man in the world to propose it. He had stated as one of those in juries, the adoption by the Roman Catholic priesthood of the titles of the Established Church in Ireland, yet in the Charita ble Bequests Act of last year, he had expressly acknowledged the right of members of the Roman Catholic Church to the titles of archbishops, bishops, and priests, when by the very enactment he had inflicted a penalty of 1001. on the assump tion of any one of these titles. This was the way in which he redeemed his pledges. He would advise him to follow the injunction which he had given the other night to his Hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury, to at once quit the benches on which he now sat, and to cross the House, for he charged him with gross and most criminal apos tasywot of, sLt;:oifrirdbo the e m t oEhfael acted ts l iol e l inodovtnewho.rneaeNsi usage,gai principles which had brought him into power. The people of England felt that there were traitors to their interest, and if they were not to be found in that House, there were at least teneiseot t mmw r i etgb i htntheeoe interests before err: ei t t tc o eseotahnont .ehfif themedt the Protestant onoewpecaei onss,unihoyaintfdr typo.hb.of aseats eLi nnb, irtehdb,te Eldon.— (Great opinion betrayed.— (Hear, greater interest—great pt7Ehnre, 'and detestable traitors to the Protestant principles. -1 Hear, - injury fil he o a neE r oa . or : ,gr t ha o l abe r n r i3 a e h dr l l e . )t felthßG the best . el He that H ( Great laughter from the Opposition tohHfaetoLrwdoo b rud e El n di c Ed h ,l, e tdna s o . knw ) e aNsvh leave a t e l nothing etnhlaian. In:dies, himself, t hfworth?,feoaronpßdi n a h t i h o e n thouglit that if authority greater lawyer than en titled to some weight. The Ministers at last seemed to think violation aetioofnthought, therefore, i n that it was necessary, for they had not hesitated to bring the into he th t i li s authority was at least inconsistent with good taste, but at any rate it should not prevent him from exposing the contemptible a wa whichto sn ee was ata apostacy, which was a direct violation of the Act of Settle ment, and a contravention of the oath of supremacy—a complete destruction of the principles which had placed the royal family on the throne.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") At the last general election the Hon. Member for Lanca shire made use of a remarkable expression, when the Hon. Member for Nottingham had the indecency to introduce the name of the Queen, where he should not have done. The expression was, ‘ The Lord defend the Queen from bad ad- vipers and from the advice of an adverse Ministry," and to that exclamation most cordially did he say amen Great laughter.) In conclusion, he begged to say that if the Go•. vernment could induce her Majesty to attach her signature to that measure, she would be committing an act equivalent to a declaration of the instability of the throne. Here an immense number of Hon. Members stood up, but Mr. S HEIL having caught the Speaker's eye, he said, Sir, I think it is extremely unfortunate--it is extremely to be la mented that no English Minister can ever confer even a small benefit upon Ireland, without doing minchief to himself.— (Hear, hear.) No doubt, Sir, a great deal of excitement has been created in this matter; but I do think that it is a matter of a very gratifying nature to the people of Ireland, to have ob served that from the commencement of this discussion the Church of England party, which may be regarded as the safe guard of the religious prejudices of this country, have prudentially abstained from taking any part in the scene this discussion ha• created ; but from the noble elevation on which it stands has looked down with cold serenity on this, what I may well call sectarian affray, leaving entirely to this House the determina tion of it amongst those with whom it originated, namely, the Dissenters.—(Loud cheers.) Those Dissenters whose cause Irish Catholics were ever foremost to advance, and who lent their best aid and most strenuous efforts to those same Dissen ters when they sought for the ab lition of the Test and Cor poration Aets.—(Cheers. ) Yet those very men have stood apathetically by tpon measures conducive to the alvencetnent of the interests of Ir sh affairs ; but upon this occasion, they stand forward, en masse, in great array of fanati cal insurgency, and in a most determined and un- Christian spirit, contumaciously oppose this measure.—(Cheers.) I am not sorry for this ; but I am more than surprised, I am grieved to think that there also are such strenuous supporter: of the Free Chu rc h o f S cot l and, and in favour of whom everyßoman Catholic hlember in this house has voted. lam grieved, I say, to find in the Free Church of Scotland such a spirit of de termined hostility against those who so enthusiastically advo• cuted their cause.—( Hear.) But, I sac that this is a question in which they have no concern ; it. i; one in which they ase not called upon to come out upon the voluntary principle ; it has nothing to do with the dogmas; it contains no pretest against the Regium Donum ; and yet they stand forward in prominent opposition, while the • Protestant Church starels neutral.—( Hear, hear) Strange to say, the moment this measure was propounded this boiler of Calvinistic wrath owe-- flew, d—the moment they saw a Minister of the Crown endee vouring to carry out a measure having for its object the ime provement of the condition of the people of Ireland.—( Hear. ) In speaking upon this questio n upon a late occasion. I adverted to the advantages that would be likely to accrue to Ireland from it. I stated that it would be looked upon as an earnest of the benevolent intentions of the Government of the country, and that the minds Of young Irishmen, serv i ng i their novie t a e to the Catholic Church, would find i n this measure the seeds of incalcu , able futu re good, and that in every parish in Ireland bette d irculeati ado be locate gentleman educated i n principles, by th e which his example would be the means of ensuring the best Possible results.—( Hear, hear.) I will not now go over those grounds again, but instead of showing the advantages which would follow the passing of this means e I will thendeavour to ex hibi t t h e ev i l consequences that would be e cettain result of its rejection.—(Cries of " Hear. hear.") If it he rejected it would lend a great impetus to the discussion of those from Ashton-under-Lyne, and otner places.—(Laughter,) And when some Hon. Mem bers returns(' to their spiritual constituencies in the north— ( Laughter )—their Calvinistic holinesses will be hailed with logebrious solemnity, with the most dismal hosannehs in every d ir eetion.—( Laughter and cheers.) But in Ireland the people will not csnfine their complaints to expressinns of discontent at the conduct of the Legislature; they w II return with ten fold vigour to their demands for a repeal of the Union with this country. Let me ask, what will be the result of the reject ion of this measure in that country, which by courtesy you call " sister" —( Laughter )—in that country where there are seven millions of Roman Catholics—in that country where the Ro - ran Ca tholics are the great depo:itaries of political power—in that countr: where the Roman Catholics retain to Parliament two thirds of the Members which represent that country in this House—in that country where the Roman Catholic religion ereponderates in its municipal corporations—in that country where the property, landed, funded, and mercantile is preserved by the Roman Catholics—in that country in which intelligence, public spi:it, and, determination, and all the other attributes which constitute a great nation, have been known to exist, and in that country where the Roman Catholics have made progress to the highest state of civilisation that is really sur prising. What, I say, will be the effect of the rejection of this measure in that country, already so d i scontented—a discontent so dark. so deep, and in my mind so jtist. —( Hear, hear.) Alas, I fear that the effect of such an annouerensent will be a renewed demand far the restoration of the Irish Parliament, and the speculators upon English ruin will then perhaps he tempted to turn their eyes upon Ireland in a manner to call for the most serious meditation from Lord Aberdeen.— ( Hear, hear.) There can be no doubt of the fact, that the rejection of this measure will give the most serious impetus to the repeal agitation. Not because the people of Ireland set any value per se upon such a trifling donation as 26.000/, but because we think a demonstration will be given that the Go. vernment of the country no longer considers it necessary to act in compliance with the wishes of the people for the granting of a measure which has met with the anprobation of both sides of the flunse.—( Hear, hear ) When the union of Ireland with England was proposed. it was opposed by some oc the ablest men in the Irish Parliament, upon the grounds that Irishmen would have no real representation here— that her voice would be swamped, and to the English aristocracy the interests and government of Ireland would be transferred. That prediction has unhappily been confirmed ; yet I must say that, though such is the fact,mnch of its bitterness has been taken away for the dignity of the despot, and has considerably diminished the baseness of the slave.—( Hear, hear.) If the conntry is no' to be governed by independent men, but by Bapti:ts, and Methodists, and Wesleyans, and Independents. and Meravians, I have no hesitation in saying that the repeal agitation will be renewed —(" Hear hear," and cheers)—and then, indeed, will the First Minister of the Crown have to make the Cabinet subservient to a conventicle.—(Hear, hear. ) And I tell these Dissenters that there will be men found in Ireland whni s will be prepared to take as bold a course as that adopted by the Hon. Member for Finsbury until their native Legislature has been restored, for they never will submit that the union of England with Ireland is to be maintained at the expense of ignominy, and that, therefore, they will consider it much better and more national to perish than submit to such degradation.—(Loud cheers.) I have told you of the lan guage that will be used by others in Ireland, not the language that shall be used by me.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) An Honourable Member says " Hear, hear," hut I appeal to the just sense of this country, and to, the just feeling of all whom I now see around me, whether I have drawn an exaggerated picture ?—(Hear, hear.) I say, then, if you pay no regard to the condition of the people—if you reject this measure—the result will be to give a new impetus to repeal.—( Hear, hear.) I have spoken with ardour upon this subject; but if I have suffered my pulse to brat with less temperance than I should have dune, I am sure you will pardon me, and admit that I have had just cause of indignation, and have a stronger right to indulge in language of this sort than an Englishman should do.—( Hear, bear. ) Will you make no allowance for our feelings when you con sider the language that has been used to our religion ?—( Hear. kear.) I am sure you will, and be willing to excuse me when von observe my blood boil with indignation at such a course. I say again that the repeal of the union will he promoted by the rejection of this measure. Are you prepared to adopt such a course, when you rec,llect that the first Minister of the Cro rn has declared in this House, that, at the hazard of civil war, he would resist the repeal of the union, and that announce ment was received with acclamation by this House ?—( Hear. hear.) Let me, then, ask lion. Members opposite whether they do not think the grant to Maynonth, mad other analogous measures, better than civil war ?—( Hear. hear. ) I see the Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) in his place, and I beg to ask him what does he think of such an alternative? I know him to be a gentleman of the greatest benevolence and high mindedness, and I have always given him the humble homage of my praise. But let me ask the Noble Lord, does it net occur to him that one night of civil war would result in more misery and devastation than would he committed in a hundred sear: in all the factories of England ?—( Cheers. ) I know the Noble Lord will shrink with horror from such a fearful contin gency ; should he not then pause before he would recommend the adoption of that fatal policy which honour and hu manity concur in recoiling from ? (Loud cheers. ) Sir, I say, conciliate in time the Catholic clergy of Ireland as a great intellectual body.._( Cheers.) There are three thou sand men—(Cheers):--firm, courageous, and devoted—they are concentrated in their episcepaey—their influence is diffused, but it is universal. It is collected, centered, and enthroned in each individual breast of 8,000,000 of penpte. It has been well said that the influence of the Catholic priesthood of Ireland is powerful for gooch—(Hear, and cheers.) lam willing to admit that the same power might by some strange perversion ,be turned to evil. I concede to you that the influence -of the Catholic priesthood in Ireland has carried many measures ; they have shown 'you that they could be hurtful as your enemies, but, when recon ciled, they have always been your fastest and firmest friends. I admit that, in 1828; it *as the Roman Catholic priesthood that carried the electiOn. Of r- large majority of Members favourable to Catholic Emancipation.—(Cheers.) We all know that the election for Clare was carried by the same influence—(Cheers)—and, Sir, I do not hesitate to say that it is by the influence of the Catholic priesthood that the Repeal Association has been zustamecl. The requis,tion for the meeting at Clewed was s'gned by twenty-five. Catholic priests.—( Loud cheers.) But let Maynooth be put down to-morrow, a Catholic seminary would be established, I where the doctrine of passive obedience would be inculcated, and a more sullen resistance would grow up. Sir, I trust that we have enough upon the records of history—enough in our own experience—to show us that the loyalty of the Roman Catholic priesthood is a pearl- rot to be thrown away.-- ( Cheers.) Sir, I ask you to look to the conduct of the Irish prieithood in Upper Canada.—( Cheers.) Every one of the Governors, over a range of several years, concurs with his pre decessor in bearing testimony to the fidelity and loyalty of the Roman Catholic priests in that coentry, who were of Irish origin.—(Cheers.) And why was that? You placed them in trust with the State—you gave them one-half of the ec clesiastical endowment of Canada, and you devoted a portion of the revenue of the Protestant Church in that colony for the education of the Roman Catholic priesthood.—( Cheers. ) Now, Sir, if you have the misfortune to go to war with a country bordering upon your valuable colony, you would find your account in the virtues, in the loyalty, and the gratit u d e o f the Irish Roman Catholic prie s th oo d. I ask you, then, why it is that the influence which you do not disdain to use in Canada you refuse to exercise with happier results in Ireland? If you can convert them into your allies as emigrants to Canada, why will you not make them devoted subjects within your natural boundary? From leaders of agitation you can convert them into the agents of peace. From inviting beacons to your enemies you can convert theta into your bul warks, from which you will derive more security, more defence, than if you planted a cannon on every promontory in the island. Sir, I regret that this measure was not brought forward at an earlier period. I hope that this mea sure is, as the Right Hon. Baronet has stated, the commence ment of a series of measures by which the two countries will be bound together.—(Cheers ) Sir, I have heard with heartfelt pleasure the declaration made by the Right Hon. Baronet op posite, that he was guilty of err6r.—(Cheers, and a laugh.) I wish to remind the Right Hon. Gentleman that it has been said by a Catholic teacher, it is worth while to sin for the sake of repentance. Sir, I must say that this Bill will be received with the greatest welcome by the meat body of the people of Ireland. It has been said that there is some objection to the measure because it' has been brought forward with a direct reference to the Sovereign, Ido not think it is meet in this House to refer to the present feelings of the Sovereign._ (Cheers.) But it is legitimate on my part to say, that in any policy hich her Majesty's Government may adopt, I, at all events, cannot help recognising, so far as her Majesty's consti tutional influence is exercised, her regard for the wellbeing of her Irish subjects. Sir, we have heard, and lam pleased to refer to the occurrence, that her •Majesty expressed her grati fication at seeing Mr. O'Connell in his municipal preferment, and her Majesty instructed Earl de Grey, on his appointment to the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland, to exert all the power of his office to conciliate the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) Sir, I was then, and I am now, convinced that the happiness of my country is one of the objects nearest and dearest to her heart,--- (Cheers.) She will go to Ireland with htr countenance beam ing with joy. She will see there her own beauties —her Own benevolence reflected in every face.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded, in a peroration of imposing brilliancy, a speech which was delivered so rapidly and in tones so variable that it was impossible to follow him. Mr. LAW complained of the introduction of her Majesty's name in the debate. He did not concur with those who thought that by this measure they would conci liate any religious or political party in Ireland. This measure should be considered in all its bearings. Its consequences—its natural consequences-Lahould be fully, fairly, and impartially discussed. ( The Right Hon. Gentleman, who appeared to be reading his speech from a document, folded somewhat in the shape of a lawyer's brief, was here assailed by loud cries of " Order, order," and " Read, read.") If it were not the pleasure of the House to hear him, he would at once sit down. Let the Hon. Member who so often cried out " Read, read," and thus interrupted the speaker, stand up and deliver his sentiments. That was the proper course. It was only in conformity with the rules of decency and courtesy— (Hear, hear)—that an Hon. M em b er s h ould be allowed to deliver his sentiments as long as he did so without hurting the feeling of any Hon. Member, and was not trans gressing the rules of the House. He was only discharging what be considered to be his bounden duty —a dut Which he owed to the constit uen t s w h o h a d suffered him to represent them in that House. He knew not why he shuuld receive such treatment--there was nothing in the manner. in which he had expressed his sentiments, nothing disrespectful to the Members of the Government—nothing hurtful to the feelings of any one SIT under' tsc ; —nothing of excitement or anger. He repeated he n' s fairly expressing his op:1 - nins ; and he cculd not the ten; what right Han. Members had to put him down by etter an. less clamour raised on this occasion.- ( at Istt` to qu a cries of " Hear, Hear.") If they would permit bun 0,41 e. his opinions, he neAdd put them in as few words as at , he He did not deny that he occasi nally glanced his e; . e .,1 h e ro paper he held in band.—( Great laughter.) He '" nd had accustomed to put down the heads of his discourse, a These done to on the present occasion interruptions had I sngthened beyond measure the obse w ;!_ rt , which, had he been allowed to 'proceed, he would n- ha r i r tle , concluded.—( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear.") H cta r efs objection whatever to his Roman Catholic fellovinsubt e _ co t —(Renewed ieeghter. sessing equality of civil rights and privileges, to the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church, or to (le Con any strp leading thereto, was a very different thin!• be ens would as shortly as possible state the eb:ections .B _ ag ain tertained to ibis measure .— The Right Hon. G en tlents i ti jo h i s anea , ed to be reading the document which he held To hand, and was again assailed by loud cries of " Rea_ To be and " Order, order." After a pause, he nr eceedeJ) catho ,,c but to r s sanc. sore the question of the endowment of the Roman the Fr Church had elicited an avowal from the 'Chancellor of _ .ebt chequer, to the effect that if ever this matter was bly" rit f ° jti under their consideration, he for one world never cons° h. /be being endowed by the revenues of the P otestant Cbu e rc en eoe Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the ment v.-ea net involved ' sod the 13ill before the House. trill to Mr II F_ITT rose to er. He believed it rag c n e n uk ; f eta the standing enter of the House that any Member should question of his speeches.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Mr. LAW wished to know by what right the Iben' to a t e : tlernan presumed to say, at that distance from the el which he stood, th a t h e was reading his sp e c eeches.—Vs a L„ e beS, The Hon. Member as ser t e d th at h e was reading his 're-ebair and had called upon th e Ri g h t H on. G en tl e man in reading bit to oblige him to de s ist. H e d en i e d t h a t be was r` ab n ivel; speeches, and the interruption was worthy of the caua t ic tbe the Hon. Gentlem an advneated. The only differenc e wea l statement which he should be enabled to lay before then: eel s. he, that for want of thi s d ocument h e was i n d•nger ot t ; ar al ing his arguments , whi c h h e h a d arrange d un der sePa ra tou al, distinct heads. It was an ungenerous interruption, ° seise d contrary to the practice of P ar li amen t, an d to the P ra e ler 9 Gentlemen.--( Cries of " H ear , hear," and r , Order, ° der t hat Mr. OSBORNE rose to order. It wa s contrary tor" wa ry any Hon. Member sh oa ld t e ll anot h er t h at he acted Ct) br a ear to the psactiee of a gentlernan.—( Loud cries of " gear, " The SPEAKER thou g ht t h e Hon. Member did n ot Lottd :tilleegsoof• the la:cute. in an offensive sense. Mr. LAW thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman for tle °l r!' obliging and just interpretation of what he had said, an e , t he pectation in which from the bottom of his heart he believed the Hon. Gentleman wh interrupted him was convinced truth of, beim. he made the interruption.—( " Order, order," " No, no.") The Right Hon. Gen eesea it tank up the document again a nd appeared to he reading ticas: amid renewed laughter.) He must appeal to the Right tease Gentleman whether he was to be the only person that P ow , who was not at liberty to arrange the heads of his argn° fairly (Great laughter)—so that he might lay before the House. I f the object was to prevent him fr om P u tt it ceechne, it would be successful only to this ess'ent, that t c h be " prevent him from mentioning most of those points titer , ) rested his resistance to this measure.—( Renewed lang it w as his sentimeots .nrits This debate ought to be co-ducted as it had been. _oho, very hard that he should no t be permitted to reprellentatioc: feelings of hiss con s tit uen t s , who were not inferior in ; it , hsti, character, or ability, to those who interrupted him. robe' heard the solitary di sc l a i mer o f t h e Ch ance ll or o f the ' ro de quer.—( Here the Ri g ht H on . G ent l eman appear ed t° be e sett ing from the same p a p er , an d t h e cr i es o f Order be' " Read " were renewed.) Well, if he had no other claims s , • would throw himself upo n th e i n d u l gence o f the 11( , )a 'wish .e , ( Cries of " Hear, hea r .") He repeated that his 0 1' 1 JO was to perform his duty to those who sent It.tt. se the p ro f ess i on t o w hi c h h e b elonged, b e ha d 75 of much in the habit of ma ki ng notes o f the bes sorl, his argument, • that he could n o t trust to h a d for the arra.ngements of those points —( Laughter.) f t bose been in the course ns' st at i ng t h a t t h e treearent co yness 0 bad who had spoken of the endowment of the Catholic c ier g n Y f the induced him to enter more fully into the consideration eilht question. He did not find that the suggestion Hon. Gentleman met with any discouragement from ther e we Hon. Baronet ; nor was it upon, any sudden thought % e yes' tion that the Right Hon. Gentleman exchanged f"ttt l r os the with the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State do es" Home Department. The Right Hon. and Learned Ge, n ",tion had- clearly stated what was the nature of the n e e) required for the Roman Catholic clergy, and he 0"', less was aware that he could point to the authority of the age illustrious statesman than Edmund Burke, of the ii rtigh „ a , to t he cessity of seclusion for those who were intended for a the Roman Cath o li c Priesthood • but he did not think that wained best mode o f educating those who were to Eve in 3 rd be society of Pr o t es t an t s an d R oman Cathol i cs. It go! e eett recollected th at th ere was a secon d Catholic ques tion. an d sa a snore important one than the first. The first %Tat Catholic measure only removed civil disabilities, and the t he Hon. Hon. Baronet drew a broad line of distinction betwef,son removal of civil di sa biliti es ar d t h e esta b l i shment o f the It: o f- Catholic Church. N ow ; h e ma i nta i ned the he r resent tnea aa : t holie but the initiative o f th e esta bli s h ment of the Roman et nan Church.—( Hear, h ear .) Thi s was t h e most i mpor tant R Catholic question th ey h a d ever b een called on to coneitd e t r ' had he for one was not surpr i se d t h at, when the a l ar m of bad spread throughout the country, the different censtitrienenots instructed their representatives to give it the strongest "g e Of „ • Lion, and sent in petitions against it which made the that House groan. He should not be surprised if then tion of this measu re s h ou ld east E ngland, an d S c otian a part of Ireland into an ag it at i on o f as many years' "Fella and as violent, as that w hi c h accompan i e d t h e me asure removal of the civil disabilities of the Roman Cathobl"ering (Hear.) He ventured t o warn th e H ouse from en, n ot into a course, the evils of whi c h it would be difficult. ' oe a irrinossible, to overstate.—( H ear , h ear .) I t wa s 00t n iete so question of whether the Ri g ht H on , an d L earne d Ger% tha t opposite ( Mr. Shell ) wa s t o h ave a di st i ngu i s h e d Place' twee House—whether he was to t a k e p ar t i n cons idering questions which came before Parliament, together r"`„ t ion Protestant fellow-countrymen. It was a far different tin'-,ito -the question whether the Protestant reli g i on s h im ' s ! h e a - e 5 8 _ether subverted—(Oh„ oh.) 't he que s ti on b e f ore the tube and country was simply this, w h e th er t h e ti t l e u p on w hich Crown of England had been heretofore founded—(Hear)e-e' e . ther the Act of Settlement should be adeael letter on thestatu t c t book—whether the arti c l e o f th e union . the fundamental artiri t o that measure, should he utt er l y ren d ere d nu l l—t h e O nett d, was, whether that question should be infringed and sabverte —( '' Hear, bear,' and " Oh, oh.") Were they so in uc i f wiser than their ancesto r s, th at they should go bank not ° P r ; 'o th e revo l ut i on, b ut even to the reformation, for the V i s 'i a pose of subverting them ? A n d w h at were t h ey to do for? To support a Roman Catholic priesthood who Ina e ho market of sedition—( " H ear , h ear ," an d " Oh, oh")nr e e, stimulated to acts of sedition the excitable people of Its —(" Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.") And from w the funds were the means to be supplied ? From the taxes of the country, or it may be from een , revenues of the Protesta n t E s t a bli s h ment i n I re l an d. Let to, recollect that the next motion which they would have i t" m eer cuss would be this very qatstion , on which the Hon- N' l % - t he for Sheffield had a motion. Before he went on to dis egs , t on other portions of this question—(oh, oh )—before he ke n to to discuss the other portions of the question, he would per ' or assure the Houses that in' anything that fell from hi m ' his anything that should fall from bins, it was not , soy intention to say anythi ng h urt f u l to the feelings ° L, one in that House or o u t o f i t . O n the contrary, he dee'e.oe, ge with a sincerity which no person had a right to c lisPr that he respected a s muc h as any man the opinions o f ti rin bt who differed from h a m upon religiotia subjects. He t he " 1 that the removal ' of the Rom a n Ca t h o li c di sa bilities rt a e l f measure for which t h e R oman C atholics ought to be de t :ree s gruteful to, the .Ri g ht H on. B aronet. But this was a di§,t e l l t t .. and separge , guestion a lt oget h er, f or •i t was the making h. oman Catholic Church coordinate with the Protestant If he was trespassing on the House—as he was canoeist co was—(Cheers and laughter)—he must again throw himself - the indulgence of the House. —( Laughter. ) He beli e -the that her Majesty's Government had not duly considered important coosequences which were invo!sesl in the intso"; tion of this measure. The Right. Hon. Gentleman the 31° a t her for Edinburgh bad accused the Right Hon. Gentlemo the head of the Government with having introduced a m t e e a d • sure not based on the previous principles which he had ad O P when in Opposition , and yet the Right Hon. Gentleme3- the Mernber for ' Edinburgh said that there wa s „ es " t 4 difference in principle between an annual and a perrnanil e • grant. The two assertions were totally irreconcileable. would read an extract from an address published in a s ew ..paper.— (: !ere the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen was in t e c, rupted by s h ou t s o f " R ea d , read, " and great confusion tr""'ne continued for some time, indeed, throughout the who le the Hon. an d L earne d G entleman ' s speech.) He then cafe,ia to the speech of the 'Right Hon.' Secret ar y for the Home partment.—(Laughter, and confusion.'s He had attentive; listened to al that had fallen from that Right Hon. Gen tle i man, and he derivesl as all who h ear d hi m must h ave derit's the highest sati s f ac ti on i n the exercise of those laTenhts with which the Ri g ht H on . G ent l eman was blessed.—(Laug ter, cheers, and mu c h confusion.) W.! (Mr. Law) had bee° about to read art extract from an address of the' Right 1400 ' Gentleman, but it seemed that the House would not allow —( Cheers and laughter,) His Right Hon. Friend near hi° (Mr. Law) filled an important position in the Conserv:ail patty, when that party was i n O ppos i tion ; and he did n°, think that the Right Hon. B a r onet h a d treate d that Wt., Hon. and Learned ' Gentleman in a very graceful manner. e (Mr. Law) had been unable to ma k e c l ear t h e var i ou s polo-- of his address, in consequence o f the continued interrup tion t s . • with which he had bee n met.—(Cheers, laughter, and ma ch ' confusion.) He would, therefore, most cordially support tn e proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member from Nesvcastl e ' that that Bill be read that day six months—that it be laid on the table, a n d merge d under the petit i ons ,° the people th a t it b e entw i ned and folded 't! the embrace of its twin-brother, the Jewish Disabilities gill ,' and then that it may,, if they desire it, b e rev i ve d an d r ecut listed by the foste r i ng care o f i ts rea l parents and guardians tn : ; Whigs, the Gentlem en oppos i te . T hey alone could, trith °°- • any conscientious scruples, engraft this measure on a Proter - tent Constitution. Theirs the merit, if merit there were' theirs the peril of discomfiture, and the ignominy of defeat.--- (The Hon. and Learned Member sat down, amid great coda' sion in all parts of the House.) Mr. T. DUNCO MBE was aware that it was th e wi"" °f the House that this debate should be brought as speedilY fi; possible to a c l ose , ad d h e could assure them that he sraul not occupy their tine to the s ame ex t ent t h at t h e Hon. an d Learned Member the Re cor d er o f L ondon had done. 1 -• ° " . ing at the tone and temper of this debate, considering that, there had been no offence to the religious opinions of any 01°./r be that man who he might, he could not help now rising t° express his r egre t a t t h e speech which the House had heard"` that night from the Hop. and Learned Member for D u ngars'l (Mr. Shed ). He coultit not help thinking that that Hun. a nd Learned M em b er h a d d one a great act of injustice to the Protestant Di ssen t ers o f th i n country. If any one had, proposed th a t 'the Roman Catholics of Ireland sho o! " have been handed over to the free denominations of pr o : testants, instead of t o th e ar i stocracy of England—if any 0 0` had proposed to hand the government of Ireland over to thes e free de nom i nat i ons, then indeed the Right Hon. and Learness, Gentleman mi g h t h ave cause for the expression. he had oe' against them. But he had done a great injustice, and he (Mr' Duncombe) only wished that he could have procured for bi - ot s look at a pet i t i on which had been presented by himself ( f ir e - Duneombe) in a n ear l y part ef. that evening. It ha • proceeded from a d eputat i on of' tree Protestants frotOi " „ a district o f t we l ve m i les around London. And ‘1"-- was the language in that petition ? Their language was that they objected to the revenues of the Slate being aPP, r° ,i priated to a n y ece l e ciastical party whatever. They otrecie sie the broad grou n d th at th ey cou l d sanction no endowme nt. The prayer of the petitioners stated that tb e e r had acted cons c i en ti ous l y , an d f rom a conviction of wh at they considered right. They stated that they felt no animo s 'i towards their Roma n C a th o li c fellow subjects with whom th e y sympathised in the o pp ress f oo, the miseries and wrongs A t 9 which they w ere su bj ecte d ; and, therefore, he trs"7 the Right H on . an d L earned Gentleman had ';ltni a great injustice t owar d s the Dissenters w hen - s : he said they s islwere7f a set o f f anat i cal insurg to ts.- (Cheers.) The Dissenters of England had acted contistenlY on this occasion, fey in 1834, when Lord Althorr no, L b ° meant Lord Grey—tried to bring in a Bill to prey chilrY"‘ rates out of th; Consolidated Fund, the same party came lljr ward and stated, on exactly the same grounds , eneir opposition to that measure, and with such success that the Whig Gove . ol ; merit considered It prudent to withdraw thq Bill, because ""