The Sun. — London, England, 1850-02-19 00:00:00

, ______.__ J n ltifjt a deviation from the usual type of colonial go t„lerornente The opi n i on o f t h e co l or i sts of New South des was to be sought in the resolutions passed at Public meetings, in the acts cf rhe Assembly, and in the di spatche s of the Governor. With regard to the resolu tie be ' passed at public meeting., h e b e l ieve d it was i n t the dele of 18 47 that L rd Grey first communicated, in a di'listeh, his proposition for remodelling the constitution o f that co l on y. That scheme met with great opposition, Slid excited much discontent. It contained a proposition toeiv ide the l eg i s l at i ve body into two chambers, but it ea ';ati-i not aelinst that part of the scheme that the indig• on of tithe colonists was raised. It was to that por r of it which proposed to deprive the colonists of the drie ti tis i c they then enjoyed, and reduce them to the con - 0 nsere primary electors -to elect the district c?etteils, by'whotn again the representatives of the Le gttive Council were be nominated.—(Hear, hear.) x ste!Y Petttion, indeed, from the colony, with ono e teti°o, consplained of the attempt made to deprive Was of their elective franchise.—(liear, hear.) It this d With 'll the ease with the people, how did the matter stun the Leeisl. Cy Council ? No sooner (lid the Le.' gi'lstive than i meet l after Lord Grey's dispatch ar tit, eit e o -1 , than they resolved themselves into a Committee this e whole House and by a small majority adopted, e t considerable discussion, a resolution to this effect:— That. this Council is disposed to view . favourably the t ei P t lltion for se crating the deliberations of the . nomi te;3 (I the Crown from those of the representatives of Were Pe° P le .”—(llear, hear.) The Executive Council l.- littieeenaninsously in favour of a division of the egis f N e - e ue flY, and with respect to the Governors both o pi e rce r, n th Wales and Van Diemen'e Land, they de beil,C toernselvet in favour of a separation of the two ex „ e s. Ile therefore could not find in Australia any erssioe of opinion adverse to the proposition for di the„.ll4,the Legislature into two chambers ; and, as he *Out such a line of policy could be supported hy.rea sr rt a well as experience and as he could find uo form oftvertunent that would be better fitted for the people i ati trite meat he considered it desirable that the legis /Ve authority should be shared by the two bodies. h Geesetiaw wa s equally applicable to the structure of the tae hot Assembly. The federal union should represent_e i4;ttotrests of the states as collective bodies, lit!4 t Pts of the inhabitants of those states as individuals, n ilie t l a r.) So far as the first class of interests were in ts th ete one state being as independent and sovereign ie the ° e t her, they should have an equal representation fin. let - `lssembly• but, so far as the second class o 413 w ' should dershas concerned, that class . have a prepon- It e eo e in the number of representatives.—(Hear , hear.) "1149 4 not but think that if the link Or connexion ear 't W ould it b asw proposed to establish was to be permanent,. Is ettie e .,, e necessary to place a constitutional . barrier other -.mica en croachments of the one state against the d i ltui e e ; liee r B )—and that that would be best secure . kese :hug the representatives of the statetositin ap "'her and the representatives of the inhabitants ° Jth ' e n e h e er •se, (Cheers.) He believed it was the destiny 'Rev pep of Australia to increase and spread over th e , 'en territories on which they had settled, and that p(14,:,e the germ of future nations. He was firmly h al - d 4"4 t hat the form of their colonial government th e e ,h4e z i ° ,, reis e a powerful influence upon the interests, in t i e' elf e e,e -e ss, and the prosperity of a country now wet r 'l -. 7 ; and he hoped that they would stamp upon ' ci nth e e t e r4 d °l eoternrnent the impress of the best inste n l'hich Viable those colonists to enter upon the naree e r " 4 /of l e - ereeore them with all the advantages in t - flier ' - tical institutions that it was in our power to i Sir 14°,4 them, —(Cheers.) to ;II' u OLESWORTEI thought that if they were L' et ' e 6' d iscussion of the details of the Bill till they -118 t 1 1 1 11 -° lroittee, they were entitled to ask the Noble t e dee' a t fair opportunity be given to lion. Members N muss Appearedtogs Measure and to propose amendments. d It et him that the Bill was not as clear aa ex 'beteilletti it .tnight be made. The Bill, in laying down 'a which the government of the colonies as bete t o n g acted, referred to three Acts, portions of which e g 'ttoel e c° °ilinti e in force under the new system. Now, Ttee 8 l ' e coneneed he Noble Lord to eeal those t ore n ; elitPe, andn t to simplify the present r measure P ill tot git in those portions of them which he wished e I: 1 % 4 ; e , Re (tercet' with the Right Hon. Gentleman ;1 4 i t:rat oeh Boa d of Trade, that they ought to e 9t :l4, t e u s e Colonial Legislatures the right to frame for h s 7 "lrithl '7, the constitutions which they might think ., most tlls t o e :2.e! in that case they could adapt their institu th sp y "ll' sense of their own wants and interests; and l h i sei e i . rr °r which they might commit they would have and'4ll;4 ° TAY to blame But he could not think that • -.11 then before I: that principle could be fully I see, en teens N u f terried into effect. Fur his part, he should wish Ztsi-e'titolh:t t_he y g e ov e ernor of each colony should within a teeteople _," 0 . 1 1 n a constituent assembly elected by then delegate to that as r,'4 1 3' th ' e °l the colony, and - • t' li t l i s th - Power to frame their own constitu ion, (N I L P e ° wer, at the same time, to any extent ev _th t _a e e tsij a e'ound necessary. The more he considered the 14 it 0 ` t he Bill the mo did he become c tol o e woul d be 'lats. re oat give permsnen . t satisfaction to the le'tl late! Re found that a series of resolutions had eel the 'lawn up by Mr. Low, a distinguished mem 14:t Tio re e ' a setably of New South Wale h s, ne d fi ec e l in a i rin t g n te te elony l .r h t :e would be acceptable or e teZ o gniti en ';', , eh did not embody among other things .e_ d that the colonists should have their g . 411 11Ple e e n t t a li t i r mi nister e d by persons responsible to their be', by ministered that the Government . should be remov -0;01° the 4 ,vote of the Colonial Legislature, and that t ilk e elected representatives of the people there ~re'le "0 associ at e tli et e no nominees of the Crown. It was ti m those resolutions had not afterwards bee . n ti ti k b , 7 Mr. Low. but he (Sir W. Moleswortne tree e ° ,..0 to think that they conveyed the sen leeesee'' the colonists generally upon the system % b leed . ternent which they wished to see este 4,Niqi he Bill of the Noblehowever, th'lth 4 l :!ltie of these provisiorisn he,with d ith Lord, tbrefore, be- Per e 14 14' 4 would not be received satisfaction by tat, !l aded t anta of New South Wales. Indeed he felt :"'ltl e that no measure would be acceptable or per -1,,,,0hi,r, e eeficial to them which . did not deprive: he it u 'llt e l p `nee of its present arbitrar • power of inter- Weeehlieir internal affairs. He would 3 give an in ttlt,'l• e;" prejudicial effects of t he existence of that e,_!)l l 4 ,, h i e , inhabitants of Sydney, amounting to 50,000 'lt er` 'ken anxious to remove the slaughter-house iklleeftftY to a spot at some distance; but on inquiry 6 ll titit l'iod that they could not accomplish that obld ht' of the lapse of a year, when they should f o t u he h,lte,l4tued the necessary consent of the head o l i tiN -° e Me e in this country. Now, there h was surely I fl o oie e4s en why such consent should e required. k . ° ki t , e of this country were too much . in the . habit ! l e gi t ! teed the colonists as subjects and inferiors. H . e ' P O Pe -- "p4 °II the contrary, that the colonies were in kiheethq'°Os of the British empire, inhabited by , men ett ri lyl; t° enjoy in their own locality all the rights il t ' 4, 1 14 4 4, 8 which Englishmen enjoyed elsewhere. 141411144`31.:EY said that the colonists of Now South of S I LRIo eh distinctly pronounced against the scheme off e g tr e 'Ple „ 4°L l ee her composed in part of representatives Nl' Et terr"" in part of nominees of the Crown. ofHee INIMO °I7, 4 former evening that the growth k O ttlt e: s cs iu New South Wales had been in a great 4 s t :l t isiie .(4 eeed by the acts of Sir G. Arthur, who, in 'litif, th e of some defalcation in the Treasury, had "„h,„,Mt e "„Public money in private banks. But he l'it"htliet.ta,4,that opportunity of saying that he ad i tt is kt l e i S e m c arge Sir G. Arthur with the mischief \title s e ctll4LES said that he was prepared to sup t Il tltrt be 4 4 l c reading of the Bill, because . ho was per- I N e e t Majesty's Ministers in . introducing . it te ttt liti ll L 'etua t e sincere desire to give free thttl t °lto to m e l d by a very . which they believed to be e l %‘ "t t yi e tt il re q e te ( t ) .l l l e em eo . leu H les could not, however, think li P k,k th %t ver cal . ent had e chosen the best mode of to th a t desire i nto effect. They seemed to I;s' r l l lie the inhabitants of New South _Wales . te -li ed to the establishment of a double c n h e a v in ev Ot il i' l l ,bese t t il e e e fact was that the question had had never ) er 'th at :; to the colonists, b t e w c o a , tij t h t e o,i„,gy could obtain elective chambers e'es t l r e " doubted whether they would be satisfied ' l .N 4 ): h : th he l l e e - _ a i . n o g o e ia rn d e t n h t proposed . in that Bill, when they chambers were to be given :tl tl ' e iet ' t f e ri a °4 • e Thaetptewoupleof when this country fell, in his they supposed that Nt re 'e w he e , serious error House were the nominees of titi'' 4 ; th i ° Upper Duke of Norfolk and tt e 'act being that the . N Ito a ' WO ) li ,tth 41 th ri ough they had originally ( derived their ti l is 4 1 thee.,„\-rown, were at present no more its norni ,t.tt'er ee M embers of the House Commons itself. s te le ',he DI °l lles the Government officials were:remov -01 t itsure of the Crown. Os „Nei fe Said, he was prepared to . support the _ n to 4 ,ti Z. 411, 9 ,.t of the Bill, although he coald not ap- Ott is' itis', Provisions. He believed that the only i t, Plt h.% te -Piri e - pi ,i; confidence in any of our colonies ti; e te" e d . i ssee l s; t e thern effective legislatures. The Noble St te;‘ ) eltilii":,°at he wished to check the democracy. u 1,4'1411,0e inhabitants were all members of the bea d `ti t le," there the check of the Noble Lord would h ;:teCPlaced. He believed that if our colonies tr e ' es'tl4eated there would be no reason to appre leieapelle J Would attempt to separate from us, because 1 11: 1 ; * 1 1 .;' by e l il tintle bound to us by the connexion ill, eel ° .e t e e_ feeling of self-interest, and by family 'h. ft tri l i nl tts _fled to find that it was proposed, that .h 4 0 1 11 ) 3 ° Fth itg°4 ld not havejthe power of dealing with to e ' t Dr t e l , del) i.ehurch. He saw no reason why they t i . I (11.13 i C ell of hat power; and he believed that 11, 14 ite lt m . t ate% 11 ),if it weretoremain unaltered, would be tit:t ths6Zion "fle of contention and a source of much 4 --e' ll r the - f . 4 iil t e ; e l le could only repeat his anxious wish I.` e tti" the o' 4 ' 4 Pass as speedily as possible, and 6 ; 4 .17 1 ' o - Ctrirnent might allow some of its im ot b en e 1 5 AWts relnoved in Committee. Nl"tl B race‘ anti cipated that this debate would give Ql 4 , l itle e -°, in the colony from the desire expressed . litet7ttie;Zoatever might be the difference of opt oN, 4, t o th to frame a measure which should b . e IV 1' ee,,e," eolo.nists themselves. .One of the main Vllotve r V 4 aginnet it was that it establishei . a , k h 'itisie, e 4 thot for the Australian colonies which 5 ,,4 ''„cl o n ,' t ? that provided for the colonies in ge t to tri*roich was not coincident with what was tli,l'-s of who ,eli C onstitution. There could __ no ,te,r%.t‘,l"rie3o"ler they took the report of the Com o , I i e r t, or ne" T ieli, the opinion of the Ministers of te e e ke ', Pree„"e the governor of the colony—all con kc ei'uidl y -rt toe two chambers to one.—(Cheers.) 11 0te ° Ppes. r "de the admission, and those who k ih t Of • -I te vie w • use they Lse ti lt , It, A disci might make what e , e e m to .nct reason had been asked for a ti l l 4 tl 4 i 'the his %% het had been admitted to be the best l tittej,! ° exi st : e PlY was that, wherever a representative i, l'e d r o D l' th forgo '1' aral you proposed to make great g lA ti ll '''t to ls of governmeni, the representative itlll:'etl‘voulebbeee°oosulted in the first instance. Good 11,1 il t , the People or Neve South Wales were content ,i,tillit Itlltionarnl of government, and had formally t Illt ) the n i n the Ysaid • " Whatever changes yon make 4 ; pi exi4t __ , first in e t ene ,,.,, e . . -- en the case of the QM e tee v e u no previous representative consti- Y" the prepared, in the case of New South Wales, at the present moment entertaining a strong opinion in favour of two chambers, to say at I once that the colony should have two chambers forced on !heal against the cleclarat;on of the inhabi taatz? Did this Bill prevent the colony ffom adopting two chambers if they de,dred it ?—(llear.) Certainly not, and he could not help thinking, from his observa tions on this point, that the lion. and Learned Member for Sheffield had not read the Bill. Of this there could be no doubt—that if they now decided on having two chambers the result would be to impede the progress of the measure, fle. it would in that case be necessary to refer to the colonies, and obtain a vast deal of prelimi nary information. It might, indeed, well be doubted whether the materials for two chambers at present existed, and one of the speakers at the meeting to which reference had been made prominently expressed that doubt. For his own part, he believed that two chambers might exist there, but ho had no other reason for this opinion than that it was a thriving and intelli gent colony. If it were the wish of the colonists to has e two chambers, it was not by the nominees of the Crown that their wish could be thwarted, inasmuch as the governor of the colony, the First Minister of the Crown, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Com• mittee of Privy Council, were in favour of it. With respect to the Church, the Government did not propose to create anything new. The New South Wales Church Act was in existence, and gave general satisfaction. No doubt there were some, here and there, who thought that no state provision should be made for religion, but, speaking generally, the existing arrangement had been a source of satisfaction in the co lony. With respect to South Australia there was no such provision, and none was made by this Bill. For there reasons he thought, notwithstanding the crit cisms which had been passed upon it, that the Bill, as it stood, would be found most acceptable to the colonies, and would work well. But he did not speak speculatively, for the colonial newspaper press bore testimony to the satisfaction with which it was regarded.—(Hear.) Mr. V. SMITH observed that not a single voice had been raised in favour of a single chamber; and after the speech of the Hon. Under-Secretary, he began to doubt what they were discussing. The debate had been con fined to a single clause on which all were agreed, or, rather, with which all disagreed.—(Hear.) As to the experience on which so much stress had been laid, what was it? An experience of seven years. And where was the popular assent ? He could see none. With respect to the federative ques tion, he had not heard a word. What was the pretext for establishing such a system in Australia? No petitions had been presented in its favour, and they had neither popular satisfaction nor experience to appeal to in this case. In the United States such a system was intelligible for the purpose of transactions with foreign states; but how would this apply to a colony ?—(Hear.) For his own part, he had no desire to see this country become the disseminator of republican institutions all over the world. He regretted that the questions of the colonial military expenditure and the transportation of convicts had not been alluded to. With regard to the former, the colonists themselves had admitted that with representative institutions they ought to bear their own burdens—with self-government they ought to have self defence. With regard to the latter, when the colonies were calling out for labour, he thought it not too much to ask them to receive some of our reclaimed convict popu lation, who had no chance of living honest lives in the mother country. Mr. ADDERLEY contrasted the conclusion arrived at by the Committee of Privy Council, in their report of May, 1849, in reference to the feeling of the colony in favour of a single Chamber, with the language of a pe tition contained in the same paper, in which the peti . tioners expressed their desire that their constitution might be made as nearly as possible conformable to that of the United Kingdom. Two courses were open to the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies—one to give the colonists full p ,wer to construct a constitution; ano • titer to give them a good constitution, which they might by reform Bills adapt to their own wishes. But the Noble Lord had done neither the one nor the other. Much bad been said about not altering the constitution which already existed, but had not the Noble Lord done his best to alter it? The real reason, after all, was the Noble Lord's extraordinary inclination for making con btitutions. The Noble Lord had introduced an anoma- lons institution, and hoped it would succeed, merely be cause it favoured the principle of municipal corporations. lie considered that the restriction in the sale of waste lands would give Government the opportunity of intro ducing the convict system again. He hoped Go vernment would consent to the alterations that had been suggested, and then he was certain Government would get the cordial support of the House and the country. Mr. M. MILNES did not recollect that such a large and liberal concession had ever before passed that House, or was ever before known in the history of any civilized state. With respect to the apparent unity of opinion on the subject of two legislative chambers, he wished to know whether every Hon. Member enter tained precisely the same idea with respect to these two chambers. The idea of two chambers was apparently adopted Itheause supposed to be something analogous to the British Constitution; but if the question was inves- tigated it would be fund that the definition would not hold good with reference to some of the colonies. It was true that only one chamber was by the Bill provided in some of the colonies, but this he conceived was a strong proof of the independence of the measure, and of the sa crifice of all personal feelings and views on the subject. In France a feeling in favour of one chamber was exhi bited, and this might be taken as another reason why, situated as the Australian colonies were, two chambers were not considered to be indispensable. If we adopted the principles of this Bill we should give the colonies self-government. He was satisfied, if the Bill was adopted, it would tend to perpetuate the race and lan guage of England in our colonies in the same glorious way as it had done in the United States of America. Mr. WYLD considered that juAlcs would not be done to British subjects located in distant colon;es, such as Canada and Van Diemen's Land, unless they were represanted in that House. This nas no new idea, and it was one that was founded on justice and expediency. Mr. STANFORD considered it would have been more to the credit of the Noble Lord when he introduced his historical sketch of our colonies, and his exposition of his colonial policy, had he dwelt more on the noble sacrifices made by this country, and the enormous sums that had been spent ,in their acquisition. It had been asserted that the present measure was to do away with monopoly; but he contended it was under the old sys tem this country grew great, and it was the system which other countries were pursuing in order to rival our greatness. (The Hon. Member could not be distinctly heard in the gallery, owing to the noise in the House.) The principle of monopoly had been instituted by our ancestors, but it had been abandoned by this country, having been continued by Germany and the United States of America.—(Divide, divide.) The Hon. Gen man proceeded to quote from various documents to show the distressed state of the colonies under a free-trade system, and concluded by contending that the principles of the Noble Lord had a tendency to break up our colo nial empire. He had listened most attentively to the various speeches which had been made, and he must offer his opposition to the measure. The Bill was then read a second time. DISTRESSED UNIONS ADVANCES AND RE- PAYMENT OF ADVANCES (IRELAND). On the question that the report be received, CoIoneISIBT'HORP said, on the motion 'to confirm the grant of 300,0001., it would be opposed by him, ac cording to the notice given by him, by moving that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. P. SCROPE did not know what efforts had been made to recover these rates. The House did not know how remiss the parties whose duty it was to collect those rates might have been, so as to make it necessary to call upon this country for a sum of 300,000/. Till some fur ther information was given to the House he thought the House should not proceed so quickly. Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that all he wanted was, to move for the Bill, and his Hon. Friend could speak to the merits of the Bill when be saw At the same time he would submit to his Hon. Friend that, although certain unions were in this distressed state, and he proposed a loan not exceeding 300,0004 yet some of these unions would not require this as sistance. Report received. The Party Processions (Ireland) Bill went through Committee, Mr. C. Lewis in the chair. The Committee on the Parliamentary Voters (Ireland) Bill was then postponed till Friday. The second reading of the Electors (Ireland) Bill was deferred till Friday. The Committee on the Pirates' Head Money Repeal Bill was deferred till Friday. The Committee on Supply was also deferred till Friday. LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL. Sir W. SOMERVILLE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to provide compensation to tenants for improvements effected by them in certaincases, and to amend the law of landlord and tenant in Ireland. He said there had been various attempts at legislation upon this important sub ject. In 1845 a Noble Lord had introduced a Bill into the House of Peers, which had cover come down to the Lower House. In 1846 a Bill was introduced into the Lower House, which had never passed a second reading. In 1848 he (Sir W. Somerville) introduced a Bill, which was read a second time, with the view of referring it to a Select Committe. I❑ that Com mittee many amendments were introduced, but, upon being returned to the House, it was found impossible to proceed with it that session, and it dropped without having undergone a full and complete discussion. It had not met with any great favour on account of the com plicated nature of the machinery by which it was pro posed to carry it; into effect. He proposed by the pre sent Bill to do away with this complicated machinery; ho had remodelled and simplified the clauses of the Bill of 1848, and rendered them easy of comprehension, and he wished the measure to be laid on the table, in order that it might be carefully read and considered. Ho bad not altered the term or amount of the compensation, as in the Bill of 1848; but he had abolished the umpire, and substituted another officer. He had not introduced any clauses to embrace the jurisdiction of the assistant barristers, because it was his intention shortly to intro duce a Bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to the civil bill courts in Ireland. The Bill would con tain a clause that ejeetmenti or nonpayment of rent should apply to tenants horn year to year; that receipts for rent should specify dates; that after a day to be named no distress bo taken for rent due more than a year before making that distress; and that the practice bo prevented of carrying off crops on Sundays, or by night. He feared the Bill would not satisfy the ex tremes of both parties iu Ireland, but he hoped it would meet with the assent of all moderate men, parti cularly as it permitted voluntary arrangements to Le made between landlords and tenants, and had for its great objcet the encouragement of labour, the security of capital, and the permanent benefit of the owner and occupier of the eoil.—(Rear.) Lord CASTLEREAGH said ho was most anxious toy see justice done to all parties on this most important subject. His opinion on the subject of ' the reduCtion rents was this: The altered circumstances of the country • would demand a consideration of the rents under which.. f: the tenants held; and while on tho one hand he w0n.,10. entirely discountenance a reduction of rent over alit property belonging belonging to is landlord, not discriminating be tween the good tenant and the bad, so on the other ban& he was of opinion that it behoved landlords to look intr.'s, their property and rents, and to the condition of them . industrious tenants, to see where the shoe pinched, anvil. give them relief If the landlords would follow that plan they would obtain better semrity for their rents bereaf%er, and gain the affection of their tenants.— (Hear, hear.) At a meeting held at Cumber, a gentle man warned the tenantry not to he satisfied with as reduction of rent; anti he gave a history of an estate) belonging to a noble relative of his (Lord Castlereagh). That gentleman said that the estate at Cumber had. been purchased by an ancestor of the present owner in. the first part of the last century for 30,000/. ; that the rent-roll was then between 3,000/. and 4,0001., but that it was now 24,000/. Who, he asked, had made the dif ference ?—(Cries of " The tenants.") What would be. the legal interest of 30,0001. ? At 5 per cent. it would. amount to 1,5001. And then he wont on to say that the farmers who are toiling and sweating to enrich the landlords, aro to be their slaves or banished at pleasure from their homilteads. This was the authority of this Presbyterian clergyman for the fixity of tenure. " God not only made his own people farmers, but ho gave them their farms in perpetuity. He gave them fixity of tenure, on which the success and prosperity of the fanners depend. In asking for fixity of tenure, he knew they had revelation on their side, and he believed God had permitted the present oppressions to show the hollowness of the relation between landlord and tenan —(Laughter.) He had known in a parish not 12 miles distant farmers who had been respectable men, seeing themselves and their children reduced to beggary by no f4ult of theirs, and who, in a moment of frenzy, com mitted suicide." He (Lord Castlereagh) thought this statement so loose and general that he made some in quiries on the subject, and the reply was, that no such circumstances had been heard of. The best ad vice he could give to the tenants was to be moderate in their demands on their landlords, and he would advise the landlords to consider seriously the circum stances of the times, and look to the welfare of their tenants. After a few words from Mr. M. O'Connell, Col. Dunne, and Sir W. Somerville, leave was given, and the Bill was brought in accordingly, and read a first time. On the motion of Mr. WYLD the report of Dr. Farr and Mr. Grainger to the General Board of Health on 38 metropolitan workhouses, dated the 26th day of March, 1849, was ordered to be laid upon the table of the House and printed. On the motion of Mr. EWART the following Com mittee on public libraries was appointed: —Mr. Ewan, Lord Seymour, Mr. Disraeli, Sir Harry Verney, Mr. Charteris. Mrßunbury, Mr. George Alexander Hamil ton, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. Milnes, Mr. Cornewall Lewis. Sir John Walsh, Mr. Thicknesse, Mr. Mackinnon, Mr. Kershaw, and Mr. Wyld. Mr. C. LEWIS brought in a Bill to authorise the en closure of certain lands, in pursuance of the fifth annual general report of the Enclosure Commissioners for England and Wales, and to confirm the proceedings in the matter of the Common Wood Enclosure. The House adjourned at Twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 18. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool sack at Five o'clock. The ,Duke of Richmond presented a petition from Rochdale against the relay system in factories, and praying that the principle of the Ten Hours' Act should be carried out. • Lord BROUGHAM moved for certain returns re lating to the Bankrupt Acts Consolidation Bill of last session.—Agreed to. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented certain returns relating to the Poor-Law Unions is Ireland ; also returns from the Commissioners of Encumbered Es tates in Ireland. DOLLY'S BRAE. Lord STANLEY rose to move for copies of the cor respondence between the chief magistrate of Armagh and the Executive Government, in the months of June and July, 1846; also copies of any instructions to the con stabulary in reference to any processions expected to take place on the 12th of July last; and of instructions to the stipendiary magistrates who were specially sent down to Castlewellan before that day; also copy of official communications from the stipendiary ma gistrates and constabulary officers as to the proceed ings of the 12th of July, 1849, in any part Ulster; also copy of instructions to W. Berwick, Esq., accompanying the Commission of the 27th of July, 1849; also, copy of affidavits of John Jardine and John Porter, filed in the Court of Queen's Bench in Hilary Term last; and of the report annexed to the affidavit of John Porter, and verified thereby; and also, copy of any official report to the Lord •Lieutenant or the Lord Chancellor of Ireland of the proceedings at the Petty Sessions held at Castle wellan on the 11th of September and the 9th of October, 1849. He assured their Lordships that he never felt more in need of their Lordships' indulgence than be did in bringing forward this mo tion, which went to impugn the conduct of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. He did not impute to his Noble Friend any personal impropriety—he did not impugn his motives, for he believed that threughout his administration his Noble Friend had been actuated by the highest motives; but he thought he had acted ' without proper discretion. He had also to impugn the conduct of the Commission sent down to comduct the investigation, and also to impugn the conduct of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, for not protecting the magistracy, of which he was the official guardian. He felt ,he had to labour against prepossessions which their Lordships entertained, and in which he joined, against unmeaning processions, which tended to exasperate and renew political animosities, to promote breaches of the peace, and sometimes, as in this instance, to occa sion loss of life. As a proof of his detestation of these processions, he would remind their Lordships that he was himself the person who had introduced the Processions Act which had expired in 1844. He hoped he would not be considered as holding any undue bias in favour of Orangemen. He believed them to be brave, religious, and loyal, and thought that, although there might be unworthy members, as a body they deserved the character he had given them, and he believed that the Crown might always rely upon them for the defence of the province of Ulster against all enemies, foreign and domestic, but he admitted that their organ ization might tend to foster religious and political ani mosities. He would now rapidly relate the facts of the use to which he wished to draw their Lord slips attention. It was well understood that on the 12th of last July it was intended to make a large Orange demonstration in the province of Ulster, Notice was given to the Government, and two stipendiary magistrates, and a small body of troops were sent down to Castlewellan,from whence it was known that &large Orange procession would set off to go over Dolly's Brae to the park of his Noble Friend near him (the Earl of Roden). The pass of Dolly's Brae might have been guarded by a small body of men against a larger number of per sons. There was another road passing round by Dolly's Brae by which the procession might have gone. Before the Orange procession appeared a small body of troops occupied the pass of Dolly's Brae, and soon after a large body of men, armed with scythes and gnns, appeared, and finding Dolly's Brae occu pied by troops, emerged in the vicinity. The Orange body, headed by the police and accom panied by women and children, passed in proces sion, and by the exertions of the authorities, of the Orangemen, and of two Roman Catholic priests the pro cession passed without a collision. The procession having passed without interruption, it became a question whether they should return by Dolly's Brae. It was determined that they should. The cavalry, unfortunatly, had been compelled to leave the pass in search of forage. Tho Ribbonmen continued in occupation, and the two Catholic priests furnished them with bread to keep them together, and also gave them a blessing. About an hour before the time fixed for the return of the Orange procession the Ribbonmen took up a position which commanded both the pass of Dolly's Brae and the other road . by which they might have returned. After having had refreshment in Tollymore-perk, and having been addressed by his Noble Friend, the Orange procession returned by the pass of Dolly's Brae, where the Ribbonmen had taken up a formidable po sition. After the Orange procession had nearly passed a squib was let off. This was followed by two shots, and then there came a tremendous fire upon Orangemen, policemen, and military. The fire was principally directed against the police, who with great gallantry charged the Ribbonmen, and cleared the hill ; and it was the opinion of several officers, that had not the Orangemen taken the Ribbon rebel band in flank, the position would not have been claimed. He called it the rebel band because it fired upon her Majesty's troops. He admitted that afterwards some of the Orange party were guilty of atrocities which he deeply regretted. Houses were fired, some inoffensive person was put to death, and he was s ure that if the perpetrators of those atrocities could in dis covered no one would be more rejoiced at the circum stance than his Noble Friend. Shortly afterwa rds informations were exhibited at the Castlewellan sessions against certain persons for attending an illegal proces sion, which were refused by the magistrates, and there upon the Government removed from the commission his Noble Friend the Earl of Roden and Messrs. Francis and William Beers. He thought there was a pri m a f ac i e case t o f or tify the dis missal:of Mr. W. Beers. but Mr. Francis Beers had in terfered during the conflict to preserve peace, and bad ac tually, in one instance, saved a Ribbonman's life. The only offence alleged against him was that he did, in Lord Roden's park, put on an orange ribbon, which he took off before he left the park ; thi s , t oge th er w i t h t h e f ac t th a t he was present in the procession, was the charge against him. The charge against his Noble Friend was th a t he had received the procession in his park, had addressed them, and had refused to re ceive the information tendered at Castlewellan. This, he contended, was not su ffi cient to j us tif y t h e i r dismissal. The dismissed magistrates had no rea son to know that the procession was an illegal procession, and they had every reason to be lieve that they had the permission of the j Government. The Procession Act had expired, and there was no law rendering processions of that nature per se and ab initio illegal. The Governmen t . had, how ever, sent down Mr. Berwick as a Commissioner to in quire into these transactions, and on his report—not on the evidence as given, but on garbled extracts of that 1 evidence—the Government decided that there was a case ! to justify them in dismissing Lord Roden from the commission of the peace. The Noble Lord then read a number of extracts from the evidence taken before Mr. j Berwick, for the purpose of showing that it was the general opinion of the magistracy that party processions were not in themselves illegal, but only so far as they i that his Noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) had tended to cause a breach of the public peace. .He con- ' thrown out a sort of challenge to him, which it might be tended that this was a perversion of the evidence given ( unbecoming in him to decline; but at the 'same time More the Commission. But Mr. Berwick lays down as ,be had not determined on coming without much doubt undoubted law, that persons combining with a deter- I and serious reflection ; because he felt it would be minetion to oppose by force any resistance that might most injurious to the public service in Ireland, if the be made to them, were guilty of a breach of the I Lord Lieutenant was t i be expected to appear in his Fence. This was a most monstrous principle to lay place in then. Lordships' House whenever any member down. What if persons were to assault tiniest fully, lof it might think fit to impugn his public conduct, and would the party who were acting lawfully be guilty i require hi s atten d ance t h ere to explain it.-o.lcar, of a breach of the peace if they res i ste d? Most I bear.) If such was to be the case, when party spirit certainly not. To say so was tt announce a monstrous I prevailed much and ran high, it would be impossible for absurdity. The Noble Lord then referred to the fifth f any Lord Lieutenant to maintain that position which report ot the Commissioners of the Criminal Law, and was essential to the performance cf his duty or the a decision given by their Lordships in the case of the , maintenance of the dignity or aut h or i ty w hi ch belonged late Mr. O'Conn e ll, i n w hi c h i t was laid down that inti- I to the representative of the Sovereign.—(Hear.) The midation in defence of the law was legal, and that no assurance, however, that his presence was necessary for party could suffer who acted as intimidators. Thus it the vindication of the honour and character of his Noble was shove that Mr. Berwick's law was a violation of the 1 Friend opposite (Earl Roden) would be quite sufficient fiat principles of law. The Noble Lord then referred Ito induce him (Earl Clarendon) to come over on that to the conduct of the Lord Lieutenant in April and in f occasion, but he hoped that on public grounds his ap hlay in 1848. The Orangemen were then called by him !pc trance would not Fe considered as a precedent for the loyal Orangemen"—" loyal Protestants." In fact, the ; future.—(Hear.) He agreed with his Noble Friend, Orangemen were flattered and petted in 1848, nay more, ' that no man, no matter how high his rank or station, they were trusted—(Haar, hear)—and it was owing to was above the effect of public opinion in this empire ; their loyalty that the Noble Lord (the Lord-Lieutenant) and therefore he (the Earl of Clarendon) was was able to withdraw the troops from Ulster, to put ' not sorry that the present question had been brought down the incipient rebellion that had occurred in the ! before them, because by narrating certain facts and sup south. The Noble Lord then read a letter addressed ; plying certain deficieecies in the speech of his Noble from the Under Secretary of State of Ireland, eulo- ; Friend who had just sat down, he would be able to show gising the Orangemen of Ulster in 1848, and contended i their Lordships that the dismissal of those magistrates that the Orangemen had a right to consider that ' was not so unjust nor unconstitutional a step as they had they were perfectly justifies in holding their bean told, but an act fully in accordance with the law, Jelly. If these procession s were i llegal, meeting, and walking in p rocess i on on the 12th of 1 and calculated to maintain the public presto of the coun they were ; try.--(Hear, hear.) He would then briefly refer to the as much so in 1848 as in 1819. Yet, in the : Act for putting an end to party processions. It had been former year they were countenanced by the Govern- , fully admitted by his Noble Friend opposite that every ment. The Noble Lord then referred to the fact that : one of those party processions tended to a breach of the the Government had been apprised of the intention of i peace; that the attendance at them was a misdemeanor, the Orangemen to walk oa the 12th of July, and yet no i and punishable by the common law. The last Act had steps were talon to prevent their doing so; nor was the i been renewed during the reign of her present Majesty, Earl of Roden told by the Lord Lieutenant, with whom i but bad been suffered to expire in 1845, withoat another he was in confidential communicati on , that if he received renewal, because it was hop e d th a t p arty process i ons the Orangemen in his park h e wouldbe guilty of an ilk- ! would no longer be continued or persevered in. During gal act.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then proceeded ; the year in which the Act forbidding party processions to contend that the Commission appointed by the Lord ; bad expired, Lord Farnham had addressed a most ad- Lieutenant to take evidence in reference to the Dolly's : mirable letter to the Orangemen of Ireland, calling upon Brae affair, was illegal. It was so contended by Mr. i them earnestly to desist from assembling in such pro- Whiteside, the eminent Irish counsel, on the ground ;cessions. The Noble Earl here read an extract from that the Commissioner bad no power to administer oaths Lord Farnham's letter to which be alluded. Mr. Wallace to witnesses, as they could not be indicted for perjury. I had been dismissed from a Deputy Lieutenantship and The Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) quoted Lord Denman, , the commission of the peace for the county of Antrim, who denounced in the strongest terms such a court as 1 for establishing an Orange lod ge an d arrang i ng a party that constituted in the person o f M r. Berwick. That I procession. The Noble Lord here read the letters of gentleman was not only judge, but prosecutor and jury, Mr. Lucas, the then Irish Secretary, in which was con and if there were any culprits Were him, they were veyed the Lord Lieutenant's expression of disapproval the very witnesses whom he had called before him to of that gentleman's conduct. He (the Earl of Claren be examined. He said that the conduct of Mr. don) stated that fact, for the purpose of showing that Berwick in that matter was without any war- the course recently pursued by the Irish Government, rant of law, because by the publication of that and which his Noble Friend had described as so unpre evidence those parties were prejudiced who w ere ce d en t e d, so ill ega l an d unoonst i tut i ona l , was precisely liable to be put upon their trial. The proceedings by that which had been pursued by the Government of the Commission were not only illegal, but the evidence 1845, of which his Noble Fried opposite was a member. was obviously partially taken. This appeared from page , —(Hear, hear). In the month of March, 1846, a five of the report ; for it appeared that the representa- memorial bad been presented to Lord Heytesbury, tion was first that the riot was caused by a straggling signed by four magistrates of the county of Down, party of Orangemen, and it turned out in the evidence ' denouncing a procession of Ribbonmen which was 1 before Mr. Berwick that some Catholics had begun it by to take place on the 17th of that month as firing a few shots. This wa s only one instance of a bias dangerous calculated to lead to a breach of which pervaded th e whole report. Another had refer- the peace, and that, as such, it ought to be prevented. *nee to the part taken by Mr. Bere in these occurrences, Yet three out of the four magistrates who had signed Mr. Berwick representing that the Orangemen were mus- that memorial were on the bench at Castlewellan when tered in strong numbers around him when the magistrates the informations had been refused to be taken against arrived, whereas the feet was, that he was early on the the Orangemen. In the year 1848, in consequence of ground with the magistrates for the purpose of prevent- the great length to which certain political parties had ing any breach of the peace. Then with regard to re- gone, a more than usual demonstration had been made turning by the new rather than by the old road, there by the Orangemen; and he could assure his Noble was a direct misrepresentation of Mr. Morgan's evidence Friend that he was as ready to bear testimony to the on the subject. Th e f ac t was , that Mr.Fitzmaurice, a ma- good conduct and praiseworthy demeanour of the gistrate, was sent by his brother magistrates t o a d v i se O rangemen on that occasion as any other person. He them that there m i g ht be danger in returning by the had received addresses from them stating that they were same road; and if th a t a d v ic e had been adopted the ca- prepared to lend all the aid in their power to the main tastrophe would not have occurred. Mr. Berwick, in his tenance of order and to aid the government of Ireland report, had omitted the opinions of several stipendiary iu every way that might be necessary. But the present magistrates and military officers upon the point, which question had nothing to do with that, for the individuals had a direct influence on- the question, and tended to a concerned in this matter bad caused so much alarm that result diametrically the reverse of any which could have he had been obliged to take unusual precautions to en called for the dismissal of Lord Roden. The priest him- sure the preservation of the public peace. He had self laid stress upon the importance of keeping the body sent a large military force to places in the neighbour together, for as long as that was done their joint inter- hood of this contemplated procession. He had also position might have prevented mischief. These gentle- ordered an increase of 500 constabulary. He did not men were of opinion that the old road was by far the put a stop to those processions, but ho had taken such safer of the two, notwithstanding the positi on o f t h e precaut i ons as wou ld prevent any evil consequences from Ribbonmen on the Magheramayo-hill. In another mat- being the result of the same. He had received an for the report of Mr. Berwick was quite contrary to the account of ono of those processions in the county of fact. Mr. Berwick stated that two Roman Catholic Donegal, at which the parties composing it had been clergymen exerted themselves, without effect, to induce obliged to leave their arms in a house on the way aide. the body to return to their homes. Now, those priests In 1848 Mr. Francis Beers had heard that the passage did no such thing, and they said they did not. Mr. of the Orangemen through Dolly's Brae would be dis- Morgan said distinctly that he told them to go away puted, and that gentleman had then prevented them from from the place in which they then were, but did not marching by that road; but in 1849 he had deliberately tell them to go home, as he was afraid of the cense- allowed it to take place, as a sort of triumph over an quences. The Commissioner then goes on to say ip opposite party. In the winter of 1848-49, a great deal his report his balance of evidence is in favour of the • of party excitement had taken place on that matter, and conclusion that a squib or rocket was fired he (the Earl of Clarendon) had sent a considerable re from the hill; whereas the evidence was rather inforcement of troops and constabulary to the county of the other way. On another point, Mr. Berwick Down, particularly to the districts near Rathfriland. wrs apparently extremely deficient in the acumen which A false alarm (as the Noble Earl, who was occasionally ought to belong ;to a man engaged on the important very imperfectly heard, was understood to say) had business with which he was entrusted. An unfortunate eausei the death of a policeman and a woman. He fellow being found with his head broken in, and his eyes had written a letter ordering the parties impli protruding, Mr. Berwick, from that evidence alone, took cated in that transaction to be brought to justice. upon himself to say that this act was done with an The parties had accordingly been arrested, informations Orangeman's musket. He would admit, in his Noble having been sworn against them, and counsel had been Friend's presence, that after these events he would have sent down to conduct the prosecution. In Newtownards exercised a more sound discretion, had ho abstained also, and Hillsborough, the law had been similarly laid from sitting as a mag istrate , to decide u p on cases w hi c h d own an d en f orced. In fact, many things had occurred so originated. Bu t etas only an indiscretion, and to make the practice and state of the law perfectly well afforded not the shadow of a ground for the removal of known in that very county on the subject. Matters re his Noble Friend. It might as well be said that the mained in teat way until about the 12th of July, when Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack was liable to he had feared the riots might take place, and with a an impeachment in that House for having given judg- view to guard against the same he had dispatched 7 went in favour of the Grand Junction Carta' Company head constables, 7 sub inspectors, and 253 police, into against a private individual, because the Noble the district, and several stipendiary magistrates were and Learned Lord happened to be a large share- also directed to repair to the same, and the military and holder in the company.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Ber- police stationed in the neighbourhood put under their wick, at the petty sessions at Castlewellan, when control. There were also several of the best detective he found the magistrates indisposed to accept officers sent thither t) obtain the beat private infor - his view of the law, persuaded them by a species Deaden as to the real intentions of the respective of bribery—he did not, of course, mean pecuniary parties. In fact, no measures that could be taken of a bribery—but he did persuade the magistrates to coincide precautionary nature had been omitted upon the re in his opinion, that if the defendants were convicted, the cent occasion which might have tended to preserve penalty should only be a nominal one. He wanted to the peace. Several communications had passed know why Mr. Berwick was at those petty sessions at between some of the local authorities and the Govern all; but being there, if he were in the least desirous that went, but all the inftrmation obtained was of a general the law should have effect, he took the most effectual rather than a special nature, and therefore he had consi means of f. ustrating it. If Mr. Berwick were diasatis- dered that it would be most unwise to give any special fled with the decision of the magistrates, he might instructions to the stipendiary magistrates, Mr. Tabiteau have procured a mandamus ag a i nst t h em f rom th e or M r . Fi tzmaur i ce, but that it would be better to leave Court of Queen s Bench; but Mr. Berwick did no- a discretionary power in the hands of two gentlemen thing in the matter. He did not take a single step to worthy to be fully entrusted in the business. It appeared, give effect to his opinions. On the 2d of October the however, that from what ho had collected on the spot. new Act of the 12th and 13th Victoria came into opera- Mr. Tabiteau had feared that a collison or a breach of tion, an Act entitled, "An Act f or t h e P rotect i on o f M a - the peace might be apprehended if the Orange proces gistrates in Ireland," which provided that whore justices sion proceeded through Dolly's Brae, as was purposed, of the peace refuted to do any act which they were re- and he had informed his Noble Friend opposite (the quirod to de, it should be lawful for the party to apply to Eat' of Roden) of the fact. An application had been the Court of Queen's Bench, on an affidavit of the facts, also made to another magistrate, Mr. Beers, on the same for a rule calling on such justices to show cause why that matter, by Mr. Fitz m a ttr i c e, b u t t h a t gent l eman h a d act should not be done, and if g oo d cause should not be said that he had no influence with the Orangemen such shown, then the Court should make the rule absolute; as would prevent them from going that road. After and that upon the justices being served with a rule stating seine of the negotiations which had taken place it, and do th e ac t w hi c h w i t h respect to the preventing of the proces.ion they Now, th at A ct of Parliament going by the road in question. the Noble Earl gave absolute, wmerr.e they Bveerci: ii s cv h ek o d uttlhdn do. obey oro ea n s of enabling the Court of proceeded to read some extracts from Mr. Ber- Queen's Bench to judge of the merits of the whole case, wick's report of the whole transaction. The fol been a simple m o d e l ow i ng was t h at gentleman ' s account of the affair:— l t n d wou l d,an e am m e od ti e nl , eof haveestablishing the indisput a bl e "In the evening th e O range p ar ty, h av i ng rema i ne d law of Mr. Berwick. This rep ort of the Commissioner, about two hours at Lord Roden's, did return, and took such as it was, reached the Levi Li eu t e n an t a b ou t t h e t h e o l d road through Dolly ' s Brae, and passed it in ee 22d of September, and on the 6 t h of October, 1849, the safety, and cheered after they passed. Nothing, how recommendation of that Noble Lord was announced, and ever, occurred to excite alarm except the taunts of a that was, that a due regard for the future preservation of number of women collected on the roadside, who told th e peace, and the administration of justice, demanded them ' they were prisoners, and would catch it before the removal of his Noble Friend near him from the COM' they passed Magheramayo Hill.' The Orange proces mission of the peace. The power, he contended, rested nou—some of whose members appear not to have been with the Lord Chancellor to correct, control, and dis- as peaceably conducted as in the morning—was preceded m i ss magistrates, and he recollected well the virtuous as before, by a body of police, and the rear was also indignation of the Noble L or d at the head of the Go- protected by another body of police, and by the dra vernment, on the occasion of the dismissal .of a magic- goons. On arriving at the point of the road intme trate. That Noble Lord said, he hoped the Noble and diately under the brow of .Magheramayo Hill, where Learned Lord had acted in that matter not on his own the opposing force was strongly entrenched, the police judgment, but on that of any other. Would that Noble who were in front - drew up along the side of the road, Lord condemn this transaction in the same way? and stopped to allow the Orange procession to march Was there such a notice to his Noble Friend or to Mr. past, which they did without interruption. Unfortu- Bere, or bad they any reason to believe that by what nate, after the whole body had passed forward, and while they were doing they were not acting in the strict die- the police were in the act of forming again to follow charge of their duties? Had the Lord Chancellor read them, a squib or blank shot was fired, but from which the evidence, and called upon the parties for their vindi- party lam unable to say, several trustworthy witnesses cation? Nothing of the kind. In the course of the day oaring stated their belief that it came from the rear of the 6th of October, the recommendation of the Lord of the Orange party, and others, equally credible, having Lieutenant was signified, as far as appeared in those stated that it came from a place on the hill, about half papers by the report of Mr. Berwick, but not even ac- way between the Ribbon party there posted and the road. companied by the minutes of the evidence furnished by Almost immediately after this occurrence two shots were Mr. Bere himself. It appeared that the post went out tired; and as contradictory evidence was offered to show that day, and the Lord Chancellor, without waiting for from which party they came, I shall only say that the an answer or an e x pl anat i on. di sm issed two magistrates, weight of the evidence appeared to me to favour the opi who had for a l ong per i od of t i me acted irreproachably nion that that they were fired by two of the Ribbon in the discharge of thei r d u ti es , and one of whom had body posted on the hill at the Orange body. Immedi been for forty years in the commission of the peace. ately afterwards a volley was discharged from the main lie said that this was a proceeding without precedent, body on the hill, which appeared to have been indiscri and one which lowered the dignity of the Lord Chan- minately directed at police, military, and Orangemen, Nailer, and degraded his character into a mere tool of and the firing from both sides then became general. It the executive. He grieved to have to add also, was then deemed necessary, and I think wisely, to dis that there was an adoption of this degrade- lodge the body posted on the heights; and accordingly tion of position by the Lord Chancellor, in which he the police. under Mr. Hill, charged up to and gained the did not go th roug h t h e common f orms o f j ust i ce, first entrenchment, firing as they ascended at the men so much as to ask the parties for their defence. It ap- who were placed behind it. Immediately after it was peered as if the Lord Lieutenant's secretary was in a carried the body there posted fled, and the police, hurry to execute the orders of his master, the Lord who had fired in all only eighteen shots, ceased Lieutenant, to commit this arbitrary act. Could they firing, and took a number of prisoners, among whom think that they carried w ith th e m the feeling of the were five wounded. Several of the prisoners were people —on th e contrary, they i rr it a ted the most loyal found crouching, with arms beside them, behind the portion of th e people, and called forth s e n ti ments ot walls. In the meantime a body of a b out 100 or 200 of sympathy to war d s L or d R o d en , no t only from Orange- the Orange party bad dashed up the hill transversely men and Prot. cti on i sts , b ut f ro m all the members of the ' towards the same quarter, firing shots at the retreating board of guardian s o f t h e un i on ov er which he presided, body on the hill, and the police ware for some time in comprised both o f P rotes t ants a nd Roman Catholics, considerable dang er, being placed between tw o fi res; who bore testimony t o hi s i m p ar tiality and j us ti ce to- they, however, t hrew themselves between the two parties wards all; moreover, th ese gen tlemen were determined as soon as they could, and stopped the advance of the to return him an el ec t e d mem b e r of the board, having Orange party, and iu my opinion prevented a very been excluded from it, as an ex officio member, by his re- great loss of life, which must have occurred if the two moval from the mag i stracy . He Ind now concluded parties bad come to close quarters. While this was what he had to observe upon this subject. He might be gointe, on above, I lament to say that the work of reta asked why ho did not move a direct vote of censure upon nation, both on life and property, by the Orange party, the Government. It was th a t he wished to keep this was proceeding lower down the hill, and along the side constitutional question a p ar t from party feali igs, be- of the road, in a most brutal and wanton manner, re caese he did not seek a party triumph or a Parliamen- fleeting the deepest disgrace on all by whom it was per tery advantage. He as k e d f or those papers, that the petrated or encouraged. One little boy, ten years old, country and their Lord s hip s wo uld then be able upon was deliberately fired at and shot while running across ;urther information to d e cide whether this was a wise a field. Mr. Fitzmaurice stopped a man in the act of course, or, on the cont rar y, an arbitrary, unconstitue firing at a girl who was rushing from her father's tional, and unjust act.—(Loud cheers.) house. An old woman of seventy was murderel, and The Earl of CLARENDON said before he proceeded the skull of an idiot was beaten in with the butts of to make a few r emar k s on t h e s p eec h of his Noble Friend their muskets. Another old woman was severely beaten who had just sat do wn , b e w ished to express a h ope that in her house, while another, whesswas s ubsequently saved his own appe a r ance t h ere th a t night would not be re- by the police, was much injured, and left in her house, garded as a p rece d en t, nor cons tituted one hereafter,— which had been sot on fire. An inoffensive man was (Hear, hear.) He had come over there that eveni ng , to ta k en out of his house, dragged to his gar den, the serious inter ru pti on o f t h e public business in Ireland, i and stabbed to death by three men with for the purpo se o f d e f en di ng a n act of th e executive bayonets, in the sight of some of his fam ily. The government of that country, because be had understood Raman Catholic chapel, the house of the Roman Catto- revive those religious feuds and sectarian anitno shies which it was the policy of the Government to soften down and, if possible, to extinguish. Well, then, all these dangers had passed away, the Orangemen were not armed by the Government, the yeornany had not been called out; yet no blood had been spilled, no rancorous feelings had been generated, and her Majesty in the fellowing year was ensiled for the first time to visit that portion of her dominions.—(Hear.) They had now the satisfaction of knowing that Ireland was on the whole more free from religious feuds, from political agitation, and agrarian outrage than it had been before for a great many years. lie regretted that the present motion had ever been made, because he thought u A p f ttehraat l a o n n g g ry pe riod feeling of p w o h l i i t c i h c al they hoped . ittendheadd to keep tation—af.er a calamity unparalleled in its magnitude and extent, in either ancient or modern history— after the greatest and most prolonged sufferings— after a famine of four years' duration, which had swept away the means and resources of the country; end now, when they hoped that that severe visitation of Providence had ceased—that ut all events the worst was over—it was much to bo desired that all classes would combine together in earnest exertions for the common goad, end for the social regeneration of the country, and for the promotion of thole interests in re spent to which England, as well as Ireland, was in separably connected. The Noble Earl concluded by thanking their Lordships fir the indulgence granted him, and by expressing the consent of the Government to produce the papers that were applied for. The Earl of ROI)EN was anxious for an opportunity to a-tswer the many calumnies that had been uttered aga fist him with regard to the lamentable occurrence which took place in the north of Ireland in July last year; and he had to thank his Noble Friend behind him f affording him that opportunity. Ho could not but think that he had been harshly treated by the members of her Majesty's Government, and particularly by the Lord-Lieutenant. He was only induced, in thus rising, to defend hi* public and private honour from the va rious calumnies that had been poured upon him. He did not bring the Lord-Lieutenant el Ireland there for the purpose of putting him to any in convenience, but he felt that he could not refer to the circumstances that marked that night's debate in the Noble Earl's absence, and ho therefore expr e ss e d a h o p e that the Noble Earl would, by his presence in that House, give him the opportunity ho so much desired. He begged to disclaim being influenced by any party or political feeling, or by any irritation towards the Noble Earl, whom ho had always esteemed, and to whom as a friend he was bound to acknowledge his thanks for past favours. Ho would ask the Noble Earl to remember the 21st of July, about ten or eleven days after the calamit ous circumstances so often referred to, when he (Lord Roden) wrote to him staring his regret and grief at what had taken place, and offering to surrender his office as a magistrate if the Noble Earl thought that he had acted in a manner unworthy of such a dignity. But, at the same time, he asked him to bear in mind the danger that would arise from his doing so, by the triumph which it would give to that party that was opposed to all social order. The Noble Earl, in reply, wrote to him a most courteous and kind letter, in which nothing whatever was said that could induce him to think that he contem plated the step which he subsequently took. Until the 7th of October he had never heard anything more on the subject. On the morning of that day he received a letter from the Lord Chancellor, removing him from the office of magistrate, and that communication was ac companied by a private letter from the Lord Lieutenant, expressing his sorrow and regret to be compelled in the discharge of his duty to concur in the sentiments ex pressed in the Lord Chancellor's letter. If he were guilty of the charge brought against him he would de serve not only to be dismissed from the magistracy, but he ought also to be ashamed to show his face within the walls of that House. The charge made against him was, first, that he had aided and abetted an illegal meeting; secondly, that he did not use his exertions as a magis trate to prevent the effusion of blood ; and, thirdly, that he had acted as a mag i s t ra t e in his own case to pervert the ends of justice. Whets he considered the magnitude of these charges he wondered at his ad dressing that House, when he ought to stand a pri soner at that bar. All he demanded of their Lordships was this—not to be considered guilty until he had been tried and found guilty. This was the birthright of every man within the protection of the British Constitution, and this he claimed as a British subject. In the documeht before them ho had been t Id that he had been publicly arraigned. That he denied. Where? and by whom? Was it by the Times newspaper or by individuals in another place? He was not publicly arraigned. The Noble Lord then proceeded to refer to the report of Mr. Berwick, which he contended was a one•sided report, and did not give se ample and impartial a statement of the evidence as such a document should furnish. The Noble Lord who had introduced the question to their Lordships had only done him justice when he stated that he had given to the several Viceroys of Ireland, and more particularly the Noble Earl opposite, the beat support in his power. He reminded their Lordships that in 1848 Ireland was in a very serious and awful state. There was a rebellion, which, whatever was the extent to which some might suppose it had spread in the minds of the people, at all events her Majesty's Government considered to be of a most serious na ture. 'lnc number of troops in Ireland was increased to 40,000, and one of the most able generals in the British service was sent over to superintend whatever military duties might be deemed necessary. He did not blame the Gevernment fit the prettautions they then took. On the contrary, tie thought they were right, but he merely stated th, s facts to show that they appre hended very serious disturbance, at the time. That was the, time when every loyal man and every well wisher of his cuto,tny ma , bound to come forward and show his readiness to stand by the Government and the Crown; and he (Lord Roden) felt it his duty, as he'ng connected with a It ysl distract of the country, to use every means in his power to induce that part of the country to unite and ex,rt themselves for the support of her Msjesty's Liovsnonent in Ireland. In the advice ho gave t t the Orangemen he had endeavoured to imp? eot upon them that it was of little consequence what pel deal petty was in power—whateser pasty was in power, he had told them that it was their they to give their support to it. That certainly was the advice he had given the Orangemen in the month of duly of that year. He was certain that the conduct of such an assemblage of loyal and independent men would have been grate folly acknowledged, and would meet the full approbation ef the Government. Ile was certain that those loyal men themselves, in coming forward on that anniversary, felt that they were acting in accordance with the wishes and the measure's of the Government. These men did act—they mot in thousands—they rallied round the standard of loyalty; and, notwithstanding all the efforts used by the revolutionists to induce these loyal men to join in the cry for repeal, which they endeavoured to accomplish by holding out to them the hope that by so doing they would secure Protestant objects and Protes tant principles, yet so attached were they to those prin ciples which they had ever held sacred—so determined were they to stand by their loyalty and devotion to the Throne—so enthusiastic were they in their attachment to her Majesty, that they rejected all the offers on the part of the revolutionists, and the consequence was that the whole of the military stationed in the province of Ulster was able to be removed to the focus of rebel lion, by which means the rebellion was crushed, he trusted never to be renewed. In the month of March, 1849, another procession of a very different character took place, and he was sorry to say that the results were not by any means of so satisfactory a character. He had had a communication from the Government with regard to that part of the country with which he was connected, in which it was stated that his e xett ons had been attended with the very best results, and the thanks of the Government been tendered to him for his exertions. In the month of May he bad had a communication with the Noble Eerl at the head of the Irish Government respecting the renewal of the Processions Act. He regretted extremely that that Act had not been introduced and passed immediately after the month of March, but he understood that it was not lie curate, and the national school-house, were fired into, and the windows broken, and a number of the surround ing houses of the Roman Catholic inhabitants were set on fire and burned, every article of furniture having been first wantonly destrojel therein; and ha 1 it not been for the active interference of magistrates and the troops, much more loss of life and property would un doubtedly have taken place. It was alleged by the Orange party that shots had been fired at them from the cover of some of these houses. By the exertions of the troops the Orange body on the road and in the fields was, after some delay, pressed forward, and removed from the scene of action, but no prisoners were made of that party—a matter both of surprise and regret." After having passed a high eulogium upon Mr. Berwick's pro- I tasional character, and fitness fur the duty imposed on him of inquiring into the facts of this case, tee Noble Earl proceeded to state that the reason why Mr. Ber wick had been directed to explain the law of illegal pro cessions to the Castlewellan bench of magistrates, which his Noble Friend seemed to think so strange a matter, was, that an application ha l been made t ) the Govern ment on the subject by Mr. Shaw; but although that gentleman had received the Attorney-General's opinion on the matter, &Tiering the illegality of such meetings, and had shown it to Mr. 'rabiteau, be had afterwards forgotten that he had re ceived the same, and sail that the Government had rent no answer on the question. With respect to the dis missal of his Noble Friend he had felt it to be one or the most painful public acts cf his radicle& life, for he had been most useful to him on his first going to Ire land, and he entertained the most sincere resp•ct for his Noble Friend.—(Hear.) But in the discharge of his public duty he felt he ha f no other discretion, and it was necessary that the credit of the pure administration of justice should be preserved. The people of Ireland should be taught to know that the law was no respecter of persons of rank or sta ion, that tt did not regard the rich nor the poor, but was equally efficacious towards all. The question which was to be tried was, whether or no those megistrates had done their duty, or were responsible for the acts they had done. The Noble Lord took exception to the mode in which the inquiry had been carried on. If such an inquiry be unconstitutional, it had at all events the sanction of successive Parliaments and Governments. Lord STANLEY explained. He said that the pro ceeding was neither judicial nor expedient, and no case had been shown to warrant it. It was, also, in his opinion, unconstitutional. The Earl of CLARENDON then proceeded to quote several cases in which a similar inquiry had been or dered when the Noble Lord himself was the chief secre tary for Ireland—(Hear, hear). With such precedents before him, he should like to know upon what grounds he could refuse to act in fulfilment of the promises that were given to Parliament? It would have been but a mockery, after they had given such pledges to Parlia ment, if they had waited until the long vacation, to have carried out the inquiry, or to have gone before a magis trate. The Noble Lord had truly said, that a prosecu tion for perjury could not lie against a person for making a false statement before Mr. Berwick; but the case was altered by the fact of having made Mr. Berwick a magis trate of the county of Down, for the purpose of giving him the due authority to render the inquiry in every respect effective; and the 6th and 6th of William IV., section 13, to which the Noble Lord referred in support of his view, had provided for such a case, and had legalised the whole proceeding. It the Noble Lord would but take the trouble to read that section through and also Mr. Berwick's own com mission, he would see that that gentleman had full autho rity for the course he had taken.—(Hear, hear.) He (the Earl of Clarendon) had been charged with not hay ing consulted the Lord Chancellor as to the propriety of instituting the inquiry. The Noble Lord, however, should recollect that it was his duty, and not that of the Lord Chancellor, to institute such inquiry. Having done so, and having received the report, together with the evidence upon which the report was founded, he sent that report to the Lord Chancellor, with his opinion as to the course that ought to be taken in respect to the ac cused magistrates. He merely forwarded to the Lord Chancellor a recommendation, which that eminent and learned functionary might have refused to accede to if he pleased. The Lord Chancellor, however, had come precisely to the same opinion as himself, and took im mediate steps to give effect to it. lie had recently re ceived a letter from the Lord Chancellor, stating that in consequence of having heard it was to be alleged or suggested that, in his determination to supersede those gentlemen from the commission of the peace, he had acted under a supposed necessity of con forming to his (the Lord-Lieutenant's) recommenda tion, he wished to state that he took that step solely upon his own judgment having read the evidence and the report, he did not require a moment's time to deliberate upon the course he should take under the cir cumstances, that ho regards 1 the act as his own, and considered himself directly responsible in the matter, He (the Earl of Clarendon) had conferred repeatedly with Mr. Berwick upon this subject, who assured him that he had taken the most especial care to have every point in the case fully investigated on both sides. Mr. Berwick's notes were as full and complete as those of any judge in respect to all the evidence that had been taken, though certainly they might not be as full as a short-hand writer would produce. He was, however, firmly convinced that Mr. Berwick had taken down all the evidence with the most perfect impartiality. The Noble Lord said he hoped no objection would be taken to the evidence from which he voted, because it had been taken down by a person connected with the Newry Telegraph. Now this was one of the meat unscrupulous partisan papers in all Ireland, and that was sating enough.—(Laughter.) The report would, r erhap•, have heen most correct in giving an account of the proceedings of en Orange lodge or of the spec eh c f Mr. Lt, ors, but the consciousness of that fact would not warrant him (the Noble Earl) in depending upon the f.ithfdl ness and accuracy of a report in that paper cf a trial in ,hich its own friends were a party,who had made them selves liable to grave suspicion. But his Noble Friend rani that this report was verified by affidavit. He (Lord C.) had, however, received within the last three or lour days a letter from a reporter, connected with a new:— paper called the Banner of Ulster, which had been di rected to Mr. Conway, the proprietor if the Dublin Evening Post, in which he stated that upon the day when the inquiry under Mr. Berwick aas resumed, there was no reporter from the Newry Telegraph pre sent—that he had furnished him with an abstract of what had taken place, which report was afterwards fal sified ten times. And he further added that he was in a position to prove that no person took full notes of tee proceedings but himself. The sessional Crown solicitor, who took a short-hand note of the proceedings, had been appealed to upon this point, and he stated that in the report referred to by the Noble Lord opposite there were continuous mistakes and errors, and a suppression of evidence by wholesale. The Noble Earl then observed that the affidavit in respect to that report was in perfect harmony with the other affidavits put in upon this most discreditable trial. Chief Justice Blackburn characterized the newspaper report as most garbled and inaccurate. having disposed of that subject, he hoped their Lordships would extend to him their indulgence while he alluded to a matter which was, though personal to himself, not without some public importance. As he had been brought over there that evening, he thought that was a fitting opportunity to allude to a certain misrepresentation that had been made against his character, in the performance of the arduous duties that were entrusted to him as Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. Calumnies of every shade and variety had been uttered against him; but these he felt he could afford to treat with that contempt which they deserved, relying upon justice from their Lordships' hands. But there was one document put into circulation which was signed by one or two Noble Members of that House. The principal charges contained in it were founded, it was said, upon the sayings of two gentlemen —one of them was dead and the other was in India. It was stated that he had courted the Orangemen of Ireland in the hour of peril, and basely deserted them is hen he no longer required their services—that he had armed this class of persons exclusively when ho had refused the privilege of bearing arms to other claoses. Now he knew nothing of the Orangemen of Dublin, except that such a body did exist, until the 13th of March, IS4B, when ho received u copy of a very proper and loyal address, in which they offered their assistance to suppress the apprehended anarchy. This was presented at a time when the peace of the country was placed in great danger—when shooting clubs were springing up on every side—when the most seditious language was uttered in some of the news papers, in which the people were encouraged to butcher the troops—and when almost every post brought an ac count of some new political disaster in Europe. He felt it to bo his duty to accept the services of every class of loyal citizens at such a time, without inquiring into their religious or political tenets, and as a matter of course he did receive the address. His attention, however, was called to certain resolutions that had been passed on the very same evening, and by the same body, which, in effect, attributed the sedition and discontent that existed to the encouragement that the Government had given to Popery, and expressing their opinion that the ex isting, evils would never be abated until the Roman Catholics were effectually put down, and the Con stitution again placed upon its original Protestant basis. Having read these resolutions he informed the body that until they were withdrawn, he could not ac cept of their services. These resolutions, however, a ere not withdrawn, and that address was not received, nor had ever been received to this dsy. This body of gentlemen, however, made a request for arms to be given them, or money to purchase them. He believed there were the only persons be had ever heard of who, in the moment of peril, sought to turn their loyalty to account. He refused to grant them either arms or money. But it appeared that on the following day Captaiu Kennedy gave them 6001. fur thee purchase of arms. This money, it was said, had come from the Government. He knew nothing of this money being give; , nor from whence it Cain-. All that he knew was, that it hail Leif come from the Government. lie could give his solemn as,dfran l c i :: that he had ne ver , di rec tly nor indirectly, given had been ernpoyerr on e shilling shilling to purch ase te rms to any indive Captain Kennedy, who i al t the Devon on citizens Com ai g n r s e t a t t he pa c T ittm to pia u tt r d ga ti n u iz t e . D th breek, because he (Lot d Clarendon) bud given m o i rl i e o u n jdin too s k e dire 'bons that the troops should not be scat tered about, sad therefore the citizens should assemble for their own protection. Captain Kennedy deposited his plans for the defence of the city at the Horse Guards, and in one of them there was a letter to Gen. Blakeney, which he only saw within the last few days. It was dated August 6, 1848, and it stated that in consequence of the refusal of the Government to accept of the services of the Orangemen, he had suffered a loss of 6001., which he a as induced to give them to buy arms and to keep them in good humour. A letter had also been recently received from Major Kennedy in India, dated Dec. 27, 1849, which alluded to the circumstance, arid fully exonerated the Government from any participation iu the matter. He was also attacked for not having called out the yeomanry. Lie felt that such a course would be well calculated to brought in earlier i❑ consequence of the amount of tusiness before the 'louse. When the Noble Lord wrote to him, he (Lord Roden) stated that he theri thought it too late, and as it would not be passed till immediately before the 12th July, it would appear as if t were only levelled at the Orange processions, and that he considered it most ungrati ful on the part of Inc Government after the course they had taken in its support. Ile appealed to the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (Lord Campbell) whether, in a conversation ho had with him on the same subject, he had not given expression to the same sentiments. On the 29th of June he went user to Ireland, and had the honour of dining with the Noble Earl opposite, when a conversation took place upon the same subject. He had told the Noble Earl that the procession was about to take place, and the Noble Earl spoke of the offieer who was to go down to the north; that he did not apprehend that any collision or disturbance would take place; and ke certainly had no idea, from anything that then fell from the Noble Earl, that there was anything illegal in these processions. So little did the Noble Earl deem them illegal in his (Lord Roden's) opinion, and so little idea had he that he was taking part in any illegal act, that on the 12th of July, after the Orangemen had left his park at four o'clock, the post going out at fire o'clock, he had sat down and written to the Noble Earl, stating how satisfactorily everything had gone off how quiet and orderly the immense assemblage had been , and by return of post he had received a letter from the Noble E ar l, i n which dhe stated how rejoiced lie was to hear that every. thing had gone off satisfactorily, and how grateful the Go vent was to him for the course he had p ursue d . — (. e i r l iiw ear," from Lord Stanley.) How, then, could he sup pose that he was doing au illegal a c t i n t a ki ng any part in these processions. Ile must say that he derived the greatest satisfaction from seeing 3,000 of those loyal arid independent men, with their wives and fsmilies, assembled there, and upw ar d s o f 2,000 others looking on. The Noble Lard then referred to the testimony of Mr. Fazmeurice, who said that he had requested him to use his influence to induce the Orangemen to go another way. It was utterly impossible for him to have induced the Orangemen to do so, because it would have occa :ionad a split among them, some of them going one way and some another, and there was the risk of their going unarmed aid exposed to the attack of the armed Ribbon men. There was, besides this, to be borne in mind that the military and police were stationed in the road the Orangemen took, and none in the other road. He would say that the brave and determined men to whom he had spoken that day followed most scrupulously the advice he had given them, and he believed that they would have gone quietly to their own homes had they not been most basely, cowardly, and brutally attacked, with their wives and children, by those c. - Aispirators who were hiding behind walls, and houses, and hedges, in their road. It was when they were fired at in that cowardly way, ;uid when they were defending their wives and children, that those most unhappy circumstances, to which the Noble Earl referred, had taken place. The Noble Earl has denied that the boy who was killed on that unhappy occasion had been killed by 4 ball, but he (Lord Roden) ~~ <, N G, FEBRUARY l9, 1850