The Sun. — London, England, 1850-03-13 00:00:00

0 wha t , was the proportion which those salat its bore to II o 411olunients of gentlemen practising among U 3 at the bar e--(licar, hear.) Something had been said the oth er night about the sehries a,A to the America . n i ; 4d ges• But let the House rscollect what was the pos:- ; ° e of those judges. The judge in the United States i'..eired an exceedingly small salary, and at the age of t Y he was dismissed without any pro: Lime. eo matter • , (I • W vigorous his intellset might still continue to be. The result of that system was, that a judge who had 13re 'lled in a supreme court had frequently been c Pelted to practise as counsel hefare a successor less dis itpaguished, perhaps, on the beach thin ho himself had spn•—(llear.) That, surely, was not a pos'tion to his lion. Friend would wish to reduce the judges e t this country. With regard to the salaries c f public -"leers, he had only to observe that that was a question *bleb • -• d• and upon which b e he could not in any way discuss, amWould leave it to the house to decide as they t think proper. But ho would warn them not to Zattempt lightly to disturb the arrangements en which it! Judicial system was founded. Her Majesty 's 4 14 ,! s ters, he should observe, were not unmianfal the Ole necessity of effecting every reduction which •Y could think reasonable in the natiot al expendi eee •lis Hon, iFriend had carried last year, by a 811 1411 • • • • • id majority, a motion similar to that then under le g s Z at iont and immediately after the adoption cf that e i,:"°e, the Lords of the Treasury had addressed a -4.el earliestll the tooads of public departments, stating mite the most rigid economy. He further found that • 3redeetions in the public expenditure to the amount of ji°°°,ooo/. had been effected within the last three years. th at at be confessed that when he looked to the items of , h x penditure, as it at present stood, he could see no ' litl'ssibility of reducing it t 3 an extent sufficient to me!t. ; vi"irs an• of his Hon. Friend. He presum e d that his r F riend could not m e a n t o i n t er f ere w i t h th e inte teaa the national debt, nor with the Civil List, nor trthe charges on the Consolidated F u nd, with the g'e exception of the salaries of the judges ; nor with , e lion-effective service of the army, navy, and ord- ! p h " h ", 4) , which was guaranteed by Parliament to former ;-"'io servants. Now, the whole of those charges I pette o unted to 34,000,00 d. His Hon. Friend would, he th llut e 9 fl, provide for the maintenance of armaments for fs r e t tl e 4 tiortal defence. Even his . l.fon. Friend the Member le 4 ° vest Riding of Yorkshire would leave a sum . of e 0 00 ,000/. to meet that charge; and that would give a I C' of 44,000,000/. Then there were the miscellaneous' cistlfeates, amounting to 3,800,0001., in which some re total might be effected from time to time; but the th, al amount of all those items 'could not be much less " 1 about 47,000,000/. Under these circumstsinces h . e for uuta ask his note-Friend where he could find a margin ;e a reduction sufficient to enable him to diminish texa sill, et° a n extent which would give any very sensible li t t ,' to the industrious classes of this country ? fin t l i llta ined that unless they were prepared to shake the e 1 441 4 q the public creditor in the honour of that . House,_ . th„", B they meant to violate the engagements into l rach t c a n' 'tad entered with public servants, they cot! no F r i e Y °et the views of his Hon. Friend. But his Hon. that had asked towards the conclusion of his speech ld he - farmers should be allowed to employ their an ante.q W ay they might think proper, and his Hon. Friend riu u,"seussng that point had particularly referred to t h e opiibition in this country to plant tobacco. Now e Di s t ' Maule) should remind the House, in the first et"ee, that the duty on tobacco had last year produced 013 e'en than 4,400,000/. ; and in the next place lb:L,,t'etild observe that before the Act prohibiting the ..4 'g of tobacco in this country had been passed in 110-t Scar 1829, it had been ascertained that tobacco could e ke ,e,e grown here without a protective duty to the j erultant amount of somewhere near 600 per cent. ta: t . e ° o : l Plaieed that his Hoe. Friend, in framing that f so e t c,l, had not cleatly and distinctly stated the views , kola) he wished to see carried into effect. He (Mr. F. )3 1 , - , a1 9 could not see a way of either approving of that ha, °4 or of meeting it with a direct eagetive. It coil to—ed truisms which he could not deny, but, taken in e e ,, ll ,aexion with the speeches by which it had been sup- C'ed. it led to conclusions in which Le could nct con- IT a sie should therefore ask the House not to be hs t 'ght in the trap set fur them by his Hon. F r i en d. H e 4Psd th e y would well wiigh their voles upon that ee k". He asked them not to give their a pp rova l t o a tO ro t ihell.svhich, if carried, wo u ld s p rea d d ou bt an d di smay that ugh all' [ art s o f t h e. country . H e f e l t conv i nce d t hat would be the res u lt ef their adoption of th Ot eselu tions of his Hon. F r i en d ; b u t as h e f e l t t h at l e hl not deny the abstract truth of those resolutions, he I,j'gged leave to meet the proposal by moving the previous Z ic ee•—( Hear, hear.) 4 . 1 " . • MANGLES said that he hal the happiness of bro ught a near neighbour of his Hon. Friend who had forward that motion, and as he had not last t s uPported a motion very nea r ly res embling it, h e Ind e p ot o een cfien asked by his constituents why be had pursued a different course. He was, therefore, Ile tt 1141 s to take that opportunity of stating to the e u se and to his Hon. Friend why he had not sup port ths' e cl him last year, and why he could not support him * -eu tn a the present occasion. The reason was—and he le l ed to state it without the slightest discourte o s n y . th a i1„,8.11on. Friend—that he had no such reliance nsistenc h y i , t''clsece—no such reliance on his political co ofjZ° lll d induce him to follow him upon that or upon any t, - ,,7 r Political question.—(Hear,.. hear, and laughter.) At . ii7eting held some time since at the White Lion—(A nl l r g h )—his Hon. Friend bad taken great c o r r ed h i i t a to having Lim -4e a mong the assembled agr t ihu n ltu n r f ist t s he f Honourable t t. . _year supported the b t rimer for the West Riding of Yorkshire for effecting arge reduction in the national expenditure. At that 11, t 'eg he had done him (Mr. Mangles) the honour to es , that he had voted with him upon that occa ra/a• The consequence was that he (Mr. Mangles) had e se 14 "4c leatly expected that his Hon. Friend would have k l) Perted a similar motion brought forward 1 by the Hon. , a il l for the West Riding on Friday last. But al ne,telier a ,gh he had seen his Hon. Friend in the House that hs t at nfs, he had been much surprised to find that ho had fie a ppeared in the lobb and that he had fled away 41; 111 the division. That was one reason why he was . not e t , disposed to follow his Hon. Friend, an . d why, with lept. ,meaning any disrespect to . his Hon. Friend, he could . so:.aelp looking at that motion as one . of those motions Ich his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex had lul Nled flash in the pan" motions. He was prepared to e on !sane with his H on . F rien d as regarded the present dtti en of the agricultural labourers in this country. h° Maintained that in the district from which he and q$ o n. F r i en d came t h e great b ody of theagricultural k o ou rers were in a better condition at` ` the present liklatot than they had been in bef ore the corn-laws th e been re p ea l e d. L ast Sunday he had been in at home of a labourer, who had not been 1 1 himself, his wife alone haVing been urn (ks at the time.—(Laughter.) Well, but his h r. Mangles) own l a dy had been there with him. e Woman told him that her husband was employed Barker, at Manor Farm, on wages of 12s. a (14.' 4 , and she added that with that sum they eywere Letter' I,,4tlian they had f o rmerly been when her husband had _ 55 earning 15s. a week. The Hon. Baronet who bad e st eee e tt the amendment to the Address on the first night land * t : 10 session had st a t e d th a t the and in Lincolnshire bascultivated in the most perfect manner possible. But gip Mangles) found that at a recent held in th e t se t hamp . tonshire, in a district adjoining Lincolnshire, to o±l,ov. Sir G. Robinson, a Protectionist, had declared 11 4 , 1 " Protectionists whom a- addressing tout he kei,„found the thistles so strop in ' some fields that ts 6 ebourhood that he should have supposed they bad 1 () 7 meant for a fox-cov er h a d it not been that they were ili e t r wig that the foxes could not have broken through bar -(Derisive cheers, and laughter.) He l (Al_ n e l i a lles) had no hesitation in saying that the and . real ountry might be improved to an extent which h kl l more than compensate for the reduction which n r ecently taken place in the price clod of agricultural i tt uee. He knew a case in which a tnant had been Is tt a ,b,le topay ;51. a year for a farm of 104 aereio . but . the . e t ,„'"ord having recently drained . and otherwise Ina t u r 4 9 it had let it to a man with abundant capital, ha fourteen years, at the rate . of 1301. a yea". 11:; 11 ourablelariend had speken in terms , of great sym tet3' of the condition of the small landowners tr. t his country. But he (Mr. Mangles) could tinder tile to say that in his part of the country the value 11: 1 ;:led property had increased 100 per cent. within ti e l ast century. Great complaints of agricultural dis t, 's had no doubt proceeded from different parts of the rY; but that could no . t be wondered at by any one who Vsll ecte d the discouraging language held to the farmers e 3 Y itentlemen of the Protectionist party. His Honou_r- Friend k new b ow h e (M r . M ang l es ) h a l hem de it,'Meed by his constituents—(Laughter)--for not having ta: P ed the views of that party. lie felt convinced, how that all the agriculturists required was energy and titsPirit of self-reliance to enable them to meet the ciecumstances in which they were pl aced . t}, ir R. PEEL said he sho u ld i m it a t e th e examp l e o f C li cl4 e gentlemen who h a d p rece d e d hi m , b y stat i ng as th qY as he possibly could the grounds upon which he b i ' 3ll lcl give his vote upon that occasion. The motion of E l lion. Friend might be considered either in a commer al or a financial t of view. The Right Hon. Gen th'4lan the Secretary at War professed to consid er th a t ti !, Motion was meant to imply opinions upon commer tt,4l subjects, and that his Hon. Friend really intend e d upon the Henss , to come to a decision unfavour i'e to the commercial policy which had been pursued 1;4 this country of late years. Now he (Sir Robert pi °) had that confidence in the equity and in the opi '" f la' Honourable F that he firmly b elieved s 0 13 t f ,' i ilt f his Hon. Friend had in riend tended to ask the House ei,',xpress an opinion upon f those principles ef comma.- Pli'y he would have rained his reeolution to that 11 0 "et:rin - d - ' would h ve brought that great question o f Ole clear issue, instead of attempting, by the use e l i t livoe , 1 phrases, to gain an advaritage . w . hich he could gain used direct and intelligible language. t st 11 less if he c h ou a l d dhe believe that his Hon. Friend really .11 ::irled to imply an opinion unfavourable to the t enaercial policy which 'ed been pursued in this coun lel' of late years, because he had . the other night heard 1 1 3 lion. Friend declare that in his opi f nio t n e it would have h war to have t t 'ss impossible at the termination c of feed in Engl:snd kt4lntained by legislation the . i f a higher amount dia . n its price peeon the continent. His e i °9. Friend took credit for the saga l c s i i ty s, of the views and declared rieh he had entertained in the ear '5l it had been his publicly-expressed ih • opinion at that Ood that they could not by artificial means raise . the I,,'ee of corn here to a higher rate than that wiech It e ° eld naturally bring. Then, again, he found from a l Si ; , - ` a ternent of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary . f re e r, that, at no very remote period, the . principles of t:ad- or at l, e abol o giel re qr. ictions in the supply east oftho d, hadn fo never e bad a ative more t" k 4 tdial ' a more earnest, or a more persevering advocate ien an this Hon. Fr' d (Hear.) No w , coupling those APress e d d ec l ara tions with th a t cre di t f or skgacity Itch his Hon. Friend claimed for having alwaykfore- THE SUN, seen that on the termination of the war the natural price of food would be the price maintained in this country— ! coupling together those facts, he could not believe, not ; withst :tiding the suspicions of the Right Hon. Gsntle man, that his Hon, Frie id did not really mean, by equi vocal phrases, to gain an advantage for any particular opinion upon the commercial q estion. Ile took the premises of his Hon. Friend, and he found that his con clusion in favour cf economy was one that naturally followed from his premises. ,But he (Sir R. Peel)) would wish for no better premises than those laid down by his Hon. Friend in support of the principles adopted .ain the year 1842 and in subsequent y ea rs. His Hon. - Friend had recited that " whereas the present taxation 'of the country depresses all classes, and especially the labouring classes." Well, he (Sir R. Peel) said that the I:gain:esti inference from that was that the House had acted most wisely in the year 1842 and in subsequent years by removing restrictions on the supply of food, and diminishing the taxes which pressed most heavily on the labouring classes.—(Hear, hear.) Was not that a fair and legitimate inference ? His Hon. Friend proceeded to propose, that in the pre sent state of the taxation of the country, " it is the opinion of this House that adequate means should be taken to reduce the expenditure of the Government." Now he (Sir R. Peel) defied any man to draw from these premises such a conclusion as the fallowing, for in stance:—" Whereas the present taxation of the country depresses all classes, and especially the labouring classes, this House is of opinion that it would be desirable to re vert to the principles of taxation which were in force before the year 1842, and to impose duties on the import of those raw materials on which the industry of the labouring classes chiefly depends."—(llear, bear.) Still less, he thought, would it be in the power of his Hon. Friend to draw any such conclusion as the following from those premise :—" Whereas the present taxation of the country depresses all classes, and especially the labouring classes, this House is of opinion that the taxes which were reduced, or repealed, in the year 1842, and in subsequent years—namely, the taxes on corn, on meat, on live animals, on salt meat, on bacon, on cheese, and on butter, shall be restored to their former amount." —(Hear, hear.) It would be utterly impossible for his Hon. Friend to justify such a conclusion as that from his premises. No; that which his Hon. Friend meant —and it was a fact—was that the taxation that remained pressed heavily on the productive industry and on the comforts of the labouring classes, and that it was therefore desirable that all practicable economy should be introduced into the public expenditure. That ho believed to be the motion of his Hon. Friend, and that he believed to be his view and the view of those Hon. Gentlemen who might vote with him. He thought it would be utterly impossible for those who merely wished to bring to an issue the question of an adherence to, or an abandonment of, our recent commercial policy, to follow his Hon. Friend so far as any commercial ques tion was involved in his resolutions. He agreed with the lion. Gentleman who had seconded the motion, that the merits of the commercial policy adopte i in this country of late years should be mainly tested by the answer to this question:—" Has the social condition of the labouring classes in this country been improved by the adoption of the principles of free trade, or has it thereby been deteriorated—has, or has not, the command of the labouring classes over the comforts and the necessaries of lifa been increased by the abolition of the legislative restrictions on the import of food?" The Honourable Gentleman said—and no doubt said truly—that if they could prove to him that the adop tion of the principles of free trade had really added to the comforts of the labouring classes, he should at one become a convert to those principles. The Honourable Gentleman admitted that if the result had been pro duced, BO consideration could justify the continuance of that protection which ho said was necessary for the general benefit of the community. Well, he (Sir R. Peel) thought that, so far as they could place any reli ance on the documents pith %Lich they had been fur -1 nished—so far as they could judge of the present ad ministration of the poor-law, and of the number of un employed poor—so far as they could feirm a judgment of the state of the rural districts—they had no right to hirer that the .comforts even of the agricultural classes had been curtailed by the abolition of protection. Ile knew that in some pasts of the country—and he deeply regretted the fact—great distress prevailed; but they should not consider the agricultural classes only. The core dition of the great mass of the working community was the test by which that question* should be tried. Speak ing, then, not of the whole body of the working classes, bus of the agricultural labourers, he himself doubted whether at this moment, after the aboliticn of protection, there was net a greater command of all that was essential to the enjoyment of humble life than at tho period of pro • tection. The Hon. Gentleman said that there was much distress at the present moment, and a great demand for retrenchment. Why there had been great distress and a demand for retrenchment at other periods, and those periods when protection existed to the utmost. Yet the Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the recurrence of the distress and demand was an impeachment of the justice of the commercial principles which had of late years been adopted by this country. The Hon. Gen tleman would do well to consider whether or not it was to the operation of free trade that the present low prices were attributable. In his (Sir R. Peel's) opinion it had been conclusively shown in preceding discussions that there were other causes acting concurrently with the re moval of restriction which had produced these low prices —(Hear,; hear)—that there were other causes now in operation, which would in a great measure ac count for the depreciation in agricultural prices. But his Hon. Friend (Mr. D rummon d) sa i d that he insisted e u g p e o i n n r it e fe t r h r a e t d f t r o e e t h e t ra g d r e should o wth of t o be he extended,eee. To promote an, l he the growth of tobacco in some parts of Ireland might be a benefit ; but he did not contend that a tax of 300 per cent, should be levied on f ore i gn to b acco, and that the tobacco produced at home should be freo of duty. Did be propose that home-grown tobacco should be subjected to excise regulations, and then be liable to pay the same duties as foreign tobacco ? Ile said ho was no friend of protection; but that would be protection to allow the growth of tobacco in this country, and send it into the market free of duty, whilst the grower of the foreign article was charged 300 per cent. What he apprehended tho Hose. Gentle man meant was, that legislative protection should be removed, but that an excise duty, corresponding to the customs duty, should be imposed. If so, then all he (Sir R. Peel) could say was, that a smaller amount of benefit to the agricultural list .rest was never proposed.— (Hear, Lear.) Then with regard to the hop duty, his Hon. Friend lived in a hop county, and on a fine August evening it would no doubt be a picturesque scene to witness tho labourers gathering untaxed hops. Well, the Hon. Gentleman had great sympathy with the unfortunate labourer who was prevented from growing his hops, but he wished the Bon. Gentleman would consider the position of others in less favoured parts of the country, to whom a removal of the impediments upon growing hops would be of no advantage whatever. Did he think, when he said that duties must be re-imposed upon corn, that to a man circumstanced as the Paisley or Lancashire weaver it would he any satisfaction to be told, " You have permission to collect your hops— you may gather them from the hedge ; but it is neces sary that you should pay a heavy duty upon your bacon, cheese, and corn? I am going to introduce a prohibitory duty upon the import of corn and live animals, and the compensation I offer you is permission to grow hops without legislative interference." No; that same prin ciple which made his Hon. Friend desire that the labourer of Surrey and Sussex should be permitted to grow hops, was eatable of a mach larger extension, and the labourer would be much more benefited by getting his provisions at the lowest rate, than by giving him permission to grow hops, and reviving the tax upon food. He looked upon his Hon. Friend's intention as a bonafide intention to justify a resolution of the House in favour of protec tive duties. He could not vote for the motion of the Honourable Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) the other night, because he believed that in that mo tion the recitals were not correct, that the principle which he assumed of bringing the expenditure down to the amount of any particular year was a fallacious principle, and that to sttampt to carry it out would Is ad to mischief. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that the motion of his Hon. Friend was open to many of the objections which were urged against that of Mr. Cubden l s. They both concurred in depre cating taxation which pressed upon the labouring classes, and that in order to relieve them there should be a re duction of expenditure—Mr. Cobden said to the extent of 6,000,000/. or 7,000,0001., but his Hon. Friend did not propose any specific sum; he simply declared that ade quate means should be aopted to reduce the expendi ture of the country.. He (Sir R. Peel) concurred with him. He believed that adequate means should be adopted for that purpose, but he would tell him from past experience that if the House of Commons saw that the Government was impressed with the necessity of re trenchment, and was proceeding gradually in the course of retrenchmen t , he doubted whether upon the whole it was not better for the House of Commons to stand by and permit the Government to take its own course, rather than to make general declarations of economy without pointing out the mode in which it was to be accomplished. Now he would tell his Hon Friend that ho had no confidence in the persevering, reflecting, sys tematic economy of the House of Commons. He knew that House was very apt to have hot and cold fits of saving.—(Hear, and a laugh.) That he knew. He knew that at one time the House of Commons would be decidedly in favour, he would not say of a lavish expendi ture, but cf considerable expenditure, and that at ano ther time it would be decidedly in favour of a sudden and precipitate retrenchment. He was speaking now of aa Reform Parliament, and he did not believe that, judg ing from its CollrfiC.' for several successive years, the Re form Parliament had promoted economy. This ho knew —that the Government with which he had been con nected, as well as ether Governments, had had very great difficulty in prosperous times, and when the hot fit of expenditure was upon the House cf Commons, in re sisting the desiie of the House to increase the expendi ture. Therefore, though he did not deny that, when ever there a as a pressure upon some classes, there was a warm desire for immediate retrenchment; Jet, he had more confidence in the progressive, reflective retrench meat of a Government, than he had in the varying, vacillating policy of the House of Commons, with regard to a reduction of the expenditure. Were they then to vote for the motion cf his Hon. Friend in favour of eco• norm ? If they did, he thought, after the experience of the last fortnight, they would be placed in a most pecu liar position. An abstract vote for the reduction of the expenditure would justify the country in the expectation that there was about to be a vast reduction of expendi ture. Why, if they agreed to that resolution, where would they make their reductions? He was truly sorr yto hear his Hon. Friend talk so loosely about k eep i ng fa i t h with the public creditor, conshiering the name, connec tions, position, and high character of his Hon. Friend. He thought it unworthy alike of his p:sition and cha racter to countenance such lax notions with respect to pet firming our obligations to the public creditor. But what nee the great department of the expenditure which he intended to reduce? Was it the salaries of the ptib- LONDON, lie officers? If it were so, would it not be much batter to let the H>o. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) bring f sward the motion of which ho had given notice, and have it discussed upon its own intrinsic merits, than emharrass that discussion by any vague or General reso lution, such ft) the - one before the House? Whatever his Hon. Friend might say, he (Sir R. l'eel) did not be lieve that be intended to diminish the confidence of the public creditor—he did not believe that he jut mded to reduce the civil list, and that he concurred in the posi tion taken by the Hon. Member fit the West Riding the other night, that an engagement having been contracted by Parliament with the Crown at the commeacement of the present reign, that that eat a solemn engagemeat which we were bound to maintain.—(Hear.) Would the House hold out an expectation that there should be a reduction in the military expenditure? Why, what was the vote which it came to only that more iug? On this, Tuesday night, the 12th of March, they were called upon to encourage a general expectation in the country that adequate means should be forthwith adopted to reduce the expenditure of the country, and he found that that very morning the House of Commons refused to diminish the effective strength of the army below 99,128 men by a majority 0f223 to 50. That was the vote which the House had come to. Thus they had exclude! the public creditor and the civil list, whilst the question of salaries had better be maintained for separate consideration.—(Hear, hear.) The other great items of the public expenditure were the army, navy, and ordnance—chiefly the army and navy; and they ap proached them on this day early in the evening, having at a very early period of the morning declared by a majority of 223 to 50 that the effective force should be maintained at 99,128 men, which governed the whole expenditure of the army estimates; and at a late hour that morning had determined by a majority of 117 to 19 to maintain a force of 39,000 seamen and 11,000 marines. —(Hear, hear.) Now he was decidedly in favour of the policy and necessity of retrenchment. He believed there were many taxes which now premed upon the energies of the country, and diminished the comforts of the great mass, the reduction of which, if it could be effected consistent'y with good faith and the public security, would confer inestimable benefit. Nay more, he believed that in time of peace, and in order to carry out the principle of retrenchment, they must consent to incur some risk.—(Hear,•hear.) If they chose to declare that they would have their garrisons and fortifications in a complete state at all times, he ven tured to say that no amount of annual expenditure would be sufficient for the purpose. If they adopted the opinions of military men, who said they would throw upon Parliament the whole responsibility of a war sud denly breaking out, and the consequences which might result therefrom, they would overwhelm the country with expenditure, and ho thought, therefore, that the Govern ment ought to feel assured that the House of Commons would protect them if they did incur, with respect to some of our distant possessions, a portion of tbat re sponsibility which must be incurred by making a saving, and their not. being found in a state of preparation in the event of a sudden attack. He went further. Bellum parole si pacem veils was a maxim which could not be contradicted; but at the same time it was one which must be received with great qualification and reserve. With respect to many uf our means of defence, they could not be called suddenly into action. They must, therefore, be always maintained, even at a period of peace, in a state cf efficiency. But he be 'Lys:a they consulted their true interests and the strength of the country by husbanding their resources, and trust ing to those latent and dormant energies which, when called out, would rally this gallant and glorious people around the national standard, and enable us to set at defiance all the insults or menaces of foreigners.— (Cheers.) lie agreed that the maintenance by foreign powers of such enormous cstiblishments ought to act as a warning as well as an example. Foreign powers might be impressed with the idea that they thus rendered themselves exempt from attack, but he believed that the system overburdened their people, and that no greater benefit could be conferred upon the human race than those powers consenting to maintain their relative posi tions towards each other, and each reducing its army.— (Hear, hear.) It was the aggregate of their military force which was ulidermining the very foundation of their prosperity, and the financial trial, when it came, would be a most severe one. His opinion was, with re ference to all the powers—Russia, Prussia, France, and Austria—that if they had but the good sense to maintain their relative strength, and put down some portion of the enormous expenditure which they were at present incurring by the maintenance of their armies, they would not diminish their security, but greatly contribute to their prosperity. Still, the example which they set could not be disregarded; and if they chose to have those, enormous establishments, it did impose upon this country the necessity, he would not say to make corres ponding preparations, but at least not to diminish its force to the extent to which we should diminish it if all fear and apprehension of a sudden attack were altogether removed. These were his views with regard to -this question. But he did advise the House of Commons to apply itself to economy in practical details, and not to give votes on one day of 223 to 50 in favour of the maintenance of an army of 100,000 men, and of 170 to 19 in favour of 39,000 seamen and 11,000 marines; and on the very same day to come to a general resolution justifying a general expectation on the part of the country that some great reduction would take place. On these grounds, then, he could not vote for the finan cial part of the motion of his Hon. Friend. Ho be lieved that, if carried, it would end but in delusion, and that the House of Commons would say, " Here we, have performed a great work ; we have come to this glorious resolution; and, reposing upon our laurels, we, need not apply ourselves to the active and somewhat in vidious duty of attending to economy in smaller details." Mr. NEWDEGATE would support the motion, be cause it was justified by theeircumetances of the country, and intelligible in. itself. Notwithstanding the asser tions of Hon. Gentlemen o pp os it e to t h e contrary, it was well known that a largo majority of the labourers of the country were dependent on agriculture for sup port.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth contended that the low prices of agricultural produce were not caused by his free trade measures, and yet those measures were passed avowedly to produce low prices. It was amusing to hear the Right Hon. Baronet taunt the Hon. Member for %Vest Surrey with inconsistency.—[Sir R. PEEL denied that he had done so.] If the Hon. Member for West Surrey proved an advocate of free-trade doctrines, the county would probably not return him again to enlighten the House by his eloquence. With respect to the pressure of taxation during the war and in the present day, it would be found, if the difference of the currency were taken into account, that the taxation of 1813 did not ex ceed that of 1849. If the populatien had increased one third, agricultural produce had been reduced 47 percent. in value since 1813, and the exports had diminished 70 per cent. in value. He concurred in what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir IL Peel) as to main taining the requisite establishments, but he could not acquiesce in the attempt to set aside the consideration of the question before the House. Mr. EVELYN expressed his intention to support the motion. He had been sent to that Rouse to support re duction of expenditure, which appeared to afford the only chance of roli, f to the country.. Colonel SIBTHORP supported the motion. As re garded the vote of that morning refined to by the Right lion. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), they bead the consolation of reflecting that it was the very fat her of inconsistency that made the charge. The farms ra to a man would pat their shoulders to the wheel for the+ purpose of shoving the present Ministers from their pl aces, but not with the view of putting the Right Hone unable Member for Tamworth in their position with !his friend and ally the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Those gentlemen who now voted for Government, expectaents of office, or pro bably paid for their support, would be the first to retract their errors on the hustings and ta7ee protection for their watchword. Colonel THOMPSON had felt 'himself somewhat in the predicament of the navigator, who, when asked to j in in some doubtful religious ceremonial, said, "If this is the devil, I worship God." He had some idea of oaring his vote on the other side of the House under a similar protest, and would probably have done so had he heard nothing but the speeche of the Honourable Mover. But what was to be done ts 4 ;th the speech of the Honourable Seconder, who, with:' all the eloquence for which he was remarkable, imr'pressed the House with the idea that every one who voted fir the motion must be held as voting to raise the price of corn ? The bait was reduction of taxation ; the hook protection to agriculture. The Honourable S econder avowed tae object without any appearance OS disguise ; and he (Colonel Thompson) must, under these circumstances, be permitted' to decline voting with the ether side of the House. Mr. WOOD observed, that when. be found a Member so distinguished as the Honourable,* Member tor West Surrey, than whom none knew better how to assert what he meant, proposing an Ostract r*Dlution which con tained nothing but a political truism, he was obliged to ask whether it did not mean somethir .g else. By far the larger number of those who had supported the motion had spoken of the dismal position of .the farmers in con sequence of free trade ; and at r.l/ events one party might allege, were the motion carried. that it recognised a right in the firmer to be preteut ed, whilst another might interpret it as heralding a rt le I reduction in the military establishments. The latter supposition would be an entire delusion, because the tonourable Mover, when an attempt was made to effe?. reduction in the army, walked out of the House. Ti',ere was an impene trable mystsry about the motion ; b a t there was not so with respect to the views of those who supported it, though four or five Members on the other side had vottd f retrenchment. Lie should support the previous question.] Mr. STAFFORD regarded the *observations of the Hon. and Learned Member (Ur.. Wood) as a sign of the times. The meaning was, Itbat he Would n , t vote fJr the motion Le:Anse not onil:y he, but everybody else, must agree with the principle t:t asset tad. On the present occasion, as when the t motion of the Hun. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire was die eussei, the Government availed tb ie.mselves of the chi.- ferent parties for the purpose of clt i•eatingeaeh in turn. There was a good deal for rtfla4 ition, something for mirth, but very little for hope, in t itch a state of parties as the present. The time might nc tbe very far distant —nearer than many liked to contet oplate—when those who represented the agricultural int ;west in that House might be compelled by the stress of circumstances no longer to consent to keep any Gov nrnment in power by that balance of parties • and when scich question s m i g h t ba broached as the Noble Lordlim tell would be the first to regret. He repeated it—wan they placed the agri. cultural community cf this country ' in such a position as to feel that their property was h sing eettroyed by the legislation of the Government', they would nut have that attachment to the "ari stocratie" (if they pleased) t 9 the expensive institutions of this country, of which they had hitherto been the Lout remost champions. The Bight Hon. Baronet the Membe'for Tamworth said WEDNESDAY that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Wiest Surhhy had spoken too loosely of meintaining the pub l .l6:ocredit. Certainly, allusions to that subject had of late been fre quent enough to b e somew h at formidable an d alarming; but let it not be forgatten that alien they 'aTed of the public fa:th, the agricultural constituencies—=he did not say the agricultural Members, but they might be :changed and successors, with other feelings be substituted for them—frit that their property was being sacrificed under circumstances which little inclined thorn to apply the epithet " public faith," or " public honour" to the mode in which it was done.--(Cheers from the Protec tionists.) Let no Hon. Gentleman say that he coun tenanced these things. Not at all. He put forward these remarks in refereece to the whole system of the expenditure cf this country, and h e t r usted that those who had been ad vecet i ng reduction would not content themselves with gib es an d j eers at his Hon. F r i end, but would show h ow t h e principles they excelled so loudly were compatible with the existing state of things and how it ass they were prepared to refuse to the agri culturists either a re:urn to the system which had been abandoned, or at all events a consistent carrying' out of the principles which, being acted on to their 'injury, were denied them to their benefit.—(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet as k e d them whether they. would have an excise placed on the farmer to the amount of 300 per cent. which was ex acted at the Customs horse on the foreign grower of tobacco. To that be (Mr. Stafford) replied, that he was not called upon to say whether he would or not—that was not the argument. If they were to have free trade let them have it, and let the authors of the free-trade doctrine arrange the revenue as they pleased. Precisely the same argument wa applicable with regard to malt ; and he asked, whilst this system cf one-sided legislation was per sisted in, how could the agriculturists to expected to feel that attachment to the Legislature which was desirable? The Right Hon. Baronet and Right Hon. Gentlemen upon the Treasury bench had told them that the price of corn would certainly rise—would they tell him at what price cheapness ceased to be a blessing and became a curet, ? Why, if cheap ness were a ll in all, did they promise that th at b right vision of approaching cheapness would so on b e di mned by the cloud cf return ing high prices?—(Bear, hea r .) Th e ques ti on m i g h t be delayed for a time, but it could not be staved off alto gether, and it would be the duty of those who repre sented constituencies which suffered the most severely to bring the matter forward again and again, to protest against their one-sided legislation, to warn them of the coming danger, and to tell them that no majority in that House, and no apparent triumphs of Skilled and practised debaters could convince a set of men whose fortunes were being sacrificed to feel that attachment to the Le gislature which the farmers of England had always been accustomed to feel, and in feeling which they had always stood by the institutions of the country.—(Cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not his intention to have addressed the House upon the present motion, be cause it appeared to him too vague in its character, and susceptible of no kind of explanation, had not the Hor. Gentleman who had just sat down at that cool hour of the evening made so very warm a speech. lie could not help, therefore, taking notice cf some of his doctrines. He understood the motion of the Hon. Gentleman to be, a great reduction of taxation. The .Hon. Member for Northamptonshire seemed to imply by his speech that they impeded all reduction by the course they took; but he denied that that was the case. It seemed to him, that with the heavy debt they had, and for which they were paying 28,000,000/. interest—with the expenses of the Consolidated Fund and the full and half-pay —there was very little, if these charges were to be defrayed, upon which the reduction could be made,: unless by reducing the number cf men in the army and navy. It had been properly observed by the Right lion Baronet the Member for Tamworth, that after the votes of lest night it could not be set aside by any division that might tike place that night. How, under such circumstances, the Hon. Member for West Surrey vas to arrive at any considerable reduction of expenditure, it was impossible for him to say. One Hon. Member had a motion on the paper for a reduction of 10 per cent. upon all official sa'aries; but if they took off 10 per cent. from all, including the members of the Cabinet, it would just add to the public revenue the sum of 40,000/., and what would he the great reduction of taxation derived from that saving he would leave to the Hon. Gentleman to explain.—(bear, hear.) Whe her the reduction was right or not was another question, which he should not discuss; but if they were to pre serve the public faith and the national credit, and to pa) and defray the tensions of the soldiers and sailors whom they had voted for the service of that year, and if they did not think these numbers excessive, there was hardly any great reduction that could be made. It was said that the Government derived a great advantage from being assisted one night by one side cf the House, and the next night by the other side. Why, it would be more advantageous to them, if it was pre's ticable, for them to adopt either one or the other of these motions. If they had taken the suggestion of the Honourable Member for Montrose they wou ld pro b ably have his support a n d th at of his friends, and if they supported the restoration of the import duties ou corn the Government W 33 assured that they would have bad the support of Hon. Gentlemen on the other side.— (Hear, hear.) It was, there fore, putting themselves in a posit . on of greater difficulty, and was not giving them telves a fair chance, when they came forward and said that they agree' with neither one side nor the other. Why did they do so? Simply because such was thei r conviction. The H o ,. Gentleman opposite had told them that if they went on in their present course those who sat on his side of the HOU3O would be inclined to vote for measure, dangerous to the institutions of the coun try. It was impossible for him to believe that that statement could have any foundation. Mr. A.. STAFFORD said his remark was, not that they should do so, but that they would be removed by their constituents, and that their successors might do so. Lord. J. RUSSELL—The lion. Geniternan in the first part of his argument made no such reserve.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and " No, no.") Well, then he would take it in the other sense. It was said that the agricultural representatives would vote for mea sures dangerous to th e i nstitutions of the coun try, on the first alt ernat i ve, it was a libel on the party to which the Hon. Ge nt l eman b e l onge d ; an d i n the other alternative, it was a libel upon the agricultural constituencies.—(Hear.) He did not believe that be cause their opinions wi t h regard to protection were not suffered to prevail—because the House had adopted views opposed to the electors for the counties, that they would send men inclined to vote for measures which would be considered dangerous to the institutions of the country. He was confirmed in that opinion by seeing a statement made by a Noble Lord, from whom he gene rally diffeked, but for whom he entertained the highest regard and respect—he meant the Duke of Richmond. At a public meeting, at which the Noble Duke presided, ono of the speakers having stated that the farmer's would be no longer loyal and rapport the institutions of the country, the Noble Duke immediately interrupted him with great indignation, and appealed to the meeting whether it was not true that there wou'd be no change in the loyalty of the farmers ; and he (Lord John Russell) was not sur prised to find that he had been supported by the cheers of the great majority of the meeting. The Hon. Gentleman had taken the trouble to repeat the oft refuted fallacies of free trade, and had again asked that the farmers should be allowed to grow tabacco on the principle cf free trade in all things. So far as the ques tion went at present, it was, whether the farmer would be able to compete with foreign -grown tobacco with or with out a dot e ? He contended that in neither case would the English cultivator ba able to compete successfully with the foreign grower. A nother grievance that had been urged by him, and no doubt it was true, was, that the farmer was net allowed to moisten and dry his own barley, and that the malt tea interfered with him. Here again then there was no question of free trade, because there was no foreign malt admitted free of duty. The question was one merely relating to the taxation of the country. That tax a ti on h ad been considerably increased by wars, and they had 24,000,0001, o f interest per an• num imposed up on t h e country in consequence of the French and Am er i can wars. He did not know what the Hen. Memb er f or West Surrey thought o' these ware. H o (Lord John Russell) was ono of those who thought they had been unwisely un dertaker, but, whether wisely or unwisely, the debts had been contracted, and they could not get rid of them —they must be honestly paid.—(clear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had asked when did cheapness cease to be e blessing, because, in the course of the debate in that House, some Hor. Geetteman had given an opinion that prices were likely to rise. All the errors upon that point had arisen from a sentence in Adam Smith, which said that nations pursuing their true interests acted just like individuals—they sold its the dearest and bought in the cheapest inarkete. What he (Lord J. Rutte:l) under stood Corn that was, that nations pursued th e i r own in terests jest as i ndividuals d i d; b ut t h e nation was not compelled by l aw to buy in dear article git in the dea res t. If parties wished to vha toerje o l buy a in preferen ce t o a cheap whyonet,hecheapest not? market and se ll la tare was concerned in was, to take care that they s h ou ld not make d ear what could be had cheap. He con tended that it was not right in a nation or a leeis:ature to impose taxes to make articles manufactured by one particular class dear—to injure the consumer at the ex pense of the producer. What the Government wished was merely to see the people procuring the necessaries of life at the cheapest possible rate. It was naturally to be expected that if there was en extraordinary, produce at borne and abroad, p r i ces would be low —a n d t h e ex i st i ng c h eapness mi g h t b e supposed t o arise from particulaerxpceicrtca greater t w h o e u y l d might rise. naturally Ju s t as if they were very hi g h one year, and a chan ge i n pr i ce . Ta e principle of th e i r l eg i slation was not to i n t er f ere i n t h at c ase one way or auo:her. If that were so, th en th ere was no truth wi neever i n the aste:tion th a t t h e y h a d only ' re w a n te ce r F p ' ro and du e e that next ex prices t year a one-sided system of fie,. trade. It could not to pretended that that House was bound to abandon or do away with taxes for the purpose of revenue. Let their taxes be laid on not to favour one class at the expense of another—let them not have two sorts cf taxes—one class paid for the benefit of the state and the other paid into the pockets of individuals or a class fit their exclusive benefit. In that point of view the observations of the lion. Member fur West Surrey were very inconsistent e its his argument, because, as they had been engaged in expensive wars, and had in curred heavy debts anti liabilities requiring a large amount cf taxation to defray, let them not a dd to that taxation by having another species of t trees imposed, which would not go into the Exchequer, but would go into the pockets of individuals, and for the benefit of one class against another. For these reasons and others that had been urged by the Right Hon. Gentlemen the Secretary at War, he could not assent to the motion c f the lion. Member for West Surrey, bat would vote for the previous question.—(Hear, hear.) Lord J. MANNERS said he did not intend, nor was it necessary to review the opinions expressed .by the Noble Lord, for he concludel by practically adnaitdng all that the Honourable Gentleman the Member for West Surrey had contended for. The Noble Lord .aid, that in removing taxation they ought to take care that they did not prejudice one class for the benefit of another. That was the principle which he thought admitted of a clear application to the case of the farmers of England. Because, in the year 1850, now that the rte v system of commercial policy had been for some time act , d upon, if the representations were true which the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamwurth had that evening made to the Houle, that the farmers were in a more flourishing condition than they had bern for many years past, how was it that they had adopted the coulee of presenting numerous petitions to Parliament from various channels, the object of which was to procure the repeal of some of the taxation which they were subjected to? People of all classes were saying that they were over burdened with the amount of taxation, and the answer was that taxation had been reduced as far as it was pos sible to reduce it.--(Hear, bear.) The Honourable Member far Northamptonshire had certainly stated that his constituency were tolerably well off, but he had not heard from any Honourable Gentleman con nected with the manufacturing districts how things were going on there. Did any Hon. Gentleman con nected with Manchester know that the people of the United States, at no very distant day, would be clothed with articles of American manufacture ? But it was now to China that they were to look for the security of their manufsctut hag system. The circular of the Messrs. Littledale, of Liverpool, showed plainly enongh that all the trade likely to take place between England and China would probably he endangered by a variety of circumstances, and that there was a greet depression amongst the country dealers, which depr esse d tra d e ex cessively. The ti me , i n short, was fast approaching when the cry of distress, now so great, would still be greater. The charge of inconsistency brought against those who opposed the motion for a reduction of the army and those who would support the present mot:on was unfounded. But how was this motion put ? By the evasion cf the previous question. Though they might meet it in that way, they might depend upon it it would revert again and again. It was not for them to decide when the reduction should be made, but they maintained that in the present state of the country the existing ausouut of taxation could not with justice be maintainer', and for the reasons he had assigned he would vote for the motian of the Member for West Surrey, as a protest against the unjust system of taxa tion which pressed so severely upon the country. Mr. BRIGHT said that if he were a man guided by what was called authority, he should be somewhat puz- zled which way to vote on the present occasion, for emi nent authorities had been ruling both ways with equal emphasis. He had, however, read the resolution before them with the greatest attention, and with reference solely to its intrinsic claims, and he was most anxious that the House should nut lose sight of the real nature of that resolution, or be deterred from voting for it be cause it had been supported by some injudicious friends, and by some untenable arguments. The resolution was but half the resolution which the Hon. Gentleman pro posed last year, and was all the milder in cons( quence. The proposition was, that although the Government had this year, to a certain extent, lessened the expenditure, they had not lessened it so much as they might have done, and as the circumstances of the country required. He (Mr. Bright) being entirely of thet opinion, should vote for the resolution. It was always an easy mat ter to find fault with what wo did not like, and accordingly the Gentlemen on the Treasury bench ob jected to the resolution as vague. As a practical illustration of his distaste for the vague, the Right Honourable Gentleman had wet thi s vague motion by moving th. t vaguest of all amendments the pre vious ctestion, a proceeding certainly open t ) the chsge of inconsistency, of which so much use had been made, but involving this important a2inission on the part of the Government, that they did not deny the truth of the proposition, which, at inconvenient, they desired to get id oft—(ilrar, hear.) If the House thought that the taxation of the country was not too much, the House would of course reject the motion: if the House, agree ing with its constituency. was more and more in f iveur (ofeconetey, it would reject the suhttrfuge amendment._ Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had himself afforded the very strongest argument in favour of the, former course. The Right Honourable Gentlemen), al luding to the similar resolution of last year,—" Whereas a greater amount of taxation is levied from the people than is required for the good and efficient Government ef the United Kingdom; and whereas, large sums are expended t early in supporting needless places, extrava gant alerier, and uanecetsary works and establish mente,"—then, as in the resolutlon now before the House, the Right II )pourable Gentleman, in reference to the resolution of last year, dis tinctly stated that the resolution having Lean adopted by the House, against an amendment of the Noble Member for Middlesex, the Government had accepted it, and bad, in consequence of that resolution, sent a circular to all the public departments, reciting the resolution, and requiring that in each the most rigid economy should be set on toot.—(Hear, hear.) If, then, the resolution of last year, no doubt equally de nounced by Government at the time as vague and need less, bad produced so salutary an effect, visible iu the reductions in this year's estimates, it was a most fair argument that, adopt the present resolution, and the Government—a Government he fully belitv,d honestly disposed to carry economy much further than they had hitherto been able to carry it—would avail them selves of it as a Parramentary encouragement to recluse the estimates still further next year, and as a source of strength for them against the pernicious influences, un seen by the public and the House, which impeded their onward progress in the direction ofeconotnic reform. The Right Hon.Mensber for Tam worth had referred to the large majorities in f avour of the 12,000,000/. or 13,000,0001. of army and navy expenditure, and tt erg might be some thing in what he said as regarded the majorities, but, at all events, it had nothing to do with the minorities, who were manifestly bound, in common consistency, to vote for this resolutior.—(Hear.) It was certain, however, that some of the lion. Gentlemen opposite, who had voted against the Hon. Member for the West Riding and the Eton. Member for Montrose, were now in a very awk ward predicament, thoroughly subjecting themselves to the sercasms which the Right Hon. Baronet, to whom they showed no mercy, had directed against them.— ( tlear,) Ho would advise those gentlemen to get out of their predicament by adopting some definite conclusion; he would advise them to be distinctly either for economy or for the other thing.—(Hear, hear.) He made no ob jection to their calling for economy because th e corn laws had been abolished; it was natural enough for the representatives of the agricultural interest, a large por tion of whom indisputably were no longer in the pros roue condition of seine former yeare, to be stimulated by that very fret more closely to investigate qusstines of finance and expenditure, and to require irons the Govern ment the utmost possible economy. The Hon. Member for Oxford had warned the House that the success of this resolution would be trumpeted frith as a Protectionist triumph over fret-trade principles. He was the last man in the House to desire a triumph for protection over free trade, and he would incidentally remark that the state ments of the Noble Member for Colchester, as to the effect of f. ee trade on the uanufectures of Breclthrd and Manchester, would be utterly repudiatel by those manufacturers—(llea.., hear)—but protection was gone, never, the believed, to return—certainly not in these ' days—and he was anxious they should not be for ever quarrelling about a point that was settled. Let them rather join fur an' object which all, Free-traders and Pro tectioni. te seemed t ) consider essential to the country; let them combine, not to destroy the institutions of the country—not to reduce the defences beloW the point which was really deemed necesta-y—but to cut down, with a steady and unsparing hand, the excrescences of expenditure which the Government itselr year after year, pra c ti c a'l y admitted to be such, by 'diminithing them to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounds. —(Hear.) The Government need not think this motion hottle to them ; tle effect of the similar motion last year, so far from being hostile to then, had been most bend - ie . :el, by enabling them to carry out to a much greater extent the economy which he honestly believed them to be honestly desirous of accomplishing.—(Hear, hear.) Believing, then, that this resolution would sti mulate and strengthen the Government, as that ef last year had stimulated and strengthened them, believing that no Prime Minister could bavo any interest in un necessary end wasteful expenditure, aid that the present Prime Minister desired all such expenditure to be abo lished, he should, as a friend c f the Government—but, if need were, still more as a friend to economy—support the motion.—(ll, ar, hear.) Mr. HENLEY saw no inconsistency in voting for this motion after voting against the motions ef the Hen. islemlems for the West Riding and Montrose. The cases were quite difftrent. Hon. Gentlemen might very well be indisposed to decide upon a particular number of men or upon a particular expenditure, and yet be very anxi ous to lay devvn a general principle of economy. lie was much amused with the manner in which the lion. Member fur Tamwoith had given the go •bye to the malt tax, but the Right Hon. Gentleman might rely upon it that this was a questim in which the agriculturists took very great interest indeed.—(hear.) It was satisfactory to fled that this year the Govern ment, at all events, did not deny the principle ef the re solution sow proposed. The Noble L trd at the head of the Government, after giving the House a little reading from Adam Smith, and exp'aining the often-disputed question as to the meaning ef buying in the cheapest market and selling in the dearest, had said that he thought that there was a great advantage in high prices when they rose in a natural way. He (Mr. Henley) sure posed, then, that the Noble Lord thought the high prices of 1547 a great benefit to the country.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard no tingle argument advance .I against the motion, for although it had been said that it was inconvenient and me ant rotting, no one had ventured to deny that the necessities of the country required the strictest economy that could safely be exercised. The Fiore Member for Guiljferd indeed had seemed to doubt whether there was any distress among the anri_ cultural body, but he thought the Honourable Gentic man was singular in that opinion.—(Hear, hear.) They certainly had not seen the fulfilaent of the prophecies of prosperity which were heed out when a change was made in their comer ercial policy; and there was now, unquestiot ably, farm one end of the country to the other, an universal cry that taxes could not be borne.---(llear, hm ar.) He was the last man in the Hous 5 to F.lll anything that could operate against public .credit, but when the cry of distress was so universal, he could not shut his eyes to the fact that every institution of tie country etas, to a certain extent, in danger. Ile hod regretted to hear the Saere ary-et-War state th stno remission of taxation that ho was aware ef could give relief to the people. Mr. F. MAULE denied that he had made any such stateree .t Ile. hA said that he saw in the resolution of the lion. Member for %Vest Surrey tic remission of taxation proposed that could give re lief to the people. Mr. HENLEY continued—lt came to this, then, that no pressure which such a motion could put upon the Go vernment was likely to produce such a remission t,f EVENING, MARCH 13, 1850 tzxation as would give relief to the country. Ile re• gretted to hear the statement 9( the Right Hon. Gentle• man, because many parsons were anxious that the zees n 1 change in our corcteescia' policy should have a fair trial, but they were satisfied it could not hate a fair trial uti le s the burelent now pressing upon the people were re moved or lightened. He would give his cordial support to the motion, and he was confident that, if it were carried, its effect would be to press down the public ex penditure. Mr. HEY WORTH said they ought to reduce the burdens on the country. Land was a manufacture for the production cf food, which should be free from bur dens like any other manufacture. lie would transfer the burden to property. If they did not except land, he would join them in placine the difference that would arise upon property. The Member for Tamworth had made a speech for which the country was indebted to him, and which would never die in the memory of those who heard it. Ile should vote fur the resolution. Mr. HUME agreed with the Hon. Member that taxa tion ought to be placed upon property. There was no singularity in the Hon. Member—the Member for Oxford shire, Mr. Henley —stating that the country now cried out for a reduction of taxation; but formerly, when the country was crying out for a reduction of its burdens, there was not one Hon Gentleman on that side of the House who said one word about distress, and the burdens which the Hon. Member now admitted to be general, were repudiated. There was a cry of inconsistency raised with respect to Hon. Members who might be disposed to vote for this motion, but he (Mr. Hume) would not fall in with it. He cared not from what qua -ter it came—whether Tory Whig, or Radical, he was ready to suppott the principle. —(Hear.) What was the motion before the House ? It was , a necessity for a reduction of taxation.— (Hear, hear.) From 1792 up to the present time, the increase that took place in the salaries under Government were almost incredible, and it was said that those increases were owing to high prices of food; but what he (Mr. Hume) would do now that the price of food was brought down by the legislative changes which had taken place, would be to fall back to the salaries of 1792. On th© 26:h of July, 1821, the House had come to a determination that there should be a reduction of all salaries, and that the cost of the army and navy should be reduced to the standard of 1797, and the following year showed a reduction of 3,000,0001., a considerable reduction of the navy and all other branches having taken place. He had no dcubt if the House would set to work honestly on the subject, the country would derive great benefit from its resolution. The present civil list was the one settled in George the Fourth's time, and let any Hon. Member compare the prices at that time with those of the present, and ask himself ought the present expensive sca'e be kept up? He (Mr. Hume) felt that it ought not; and he therefore hoped .that this resolu tion would be carried. He would advise the Govern ment to settle the question now, convinced that the interests of the country required a settlement of it. Ho would be prepared, before any Committee, to prove that they could reduce the expenditure 10,009,000/, and if they would take the establishaient of 1797, and ap proximate to that, he had no hesitation in saying they would bririg down the expenditure from .50,000,000/. to 40,000,000/, sterling.—(tleur, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, during the time he was recently in charge of the Government, re duced the expenditure of the navy 1,000,000/. sterling; and, if the present Government would go on in that way, he (Mr. Hume) believed they would render the country the greatest service. In 1833, he (Mr. Hume), was mem ber of a Committee, when they had 430 generals, and since that time there hal te , n 153 additional generals made. He wished that Hon. Members would lay aside the prejudices cf their politics, arid disabuse the minds of farmers, by tolling them they could not have high pr:ces now. By that course they would place the landed pro prietors upon a sefsr footing, and it was on those groads, and in that spirit, that he should support the motion of the Hon. Member. Mr. PHILIP BENNET thought, from the remarks which he had heard fell that night from Sir Rebert Peel, that the Right lion, Baronet would not only support this motion, but that ho would become a member e f the " Peace Society.”—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Ho was sorry, however, for the conclusion to which the Right lion. Baronet had arrived. He had that morning re. ceived information from the agricultural districts of Suffolk, which showed a state of the greatest distress in those district, and en amount of discontent which would require the aid cf the police to keep in check. He thought, tookiog at the causes which led to that state of things, and at the condition of the sufihring classes, that a system of the greatest economy was necessary, and in that conviction he felt it to be his duty to support the motion now before the House. Mr. OSBORNE said that, representing as he did such an enormous constituency, he did not wish to go to a division without explaining the grounds on which he had voted. He had not had the advantage of hearing the speech of the Hon. Member for Manchester, but he had heard the speeches of the Hon. Mover and of the lion. Member fur the North Riding (Mr. Ceyley), and the result which he had arrived at was, that lion. Gentle: men opposite, who had been always opposed to economy, or who invariably absented therasels es when motions for retrenchment were brought forward, were now endea• vouring to make a cat's-paw of Members on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, in order to endanger the policy that had been introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth.—(Hear, hear.) For his part, he was determined to give no vote that would endanger tie-A policy, and he declined becoming a cat's paw in the hands of the Hon. Member for West Surrey. —(A laugh.) If the motion was intended to meal any thing, it was to be a reversal of the policy of free-trade; but he should not take up the time of the House by going into that sutject at present. Ho was ready to vote in favour of every motion for a reduction in the army, the navy, or the ordnance that the Honourable Gentleman opposite might bring forward, but he could not give a fallacious vote at their bidding, the object of which was to endanger that policy which he believed to be of essen tial service to this country,—(hear, hear.) Captain HARRIS believed that it was necessary to keep up the establishments of a great empire like this on a most efficient scale; but he must agree with the Hon. Member for West Surrey, that a revision of the taxation of the country was necessary, and in that revi sion the melt and hop chit:es should form most promi nent feature. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had carried a great legislative change in the policy of this country; but he (Captain Harris) believed that the Right Honourable Baronet was now satisfied that he was not legislating far the whole country. He (Captain Harris) believ ing that an adjustment of the burdens of the country was cessary, should vote for the motion of the Hen. Mem ber for West surrey. Mr. LABOUCHERE would not detain the House long, but if time and opportunity permitted him to go into the speeches of Huy. Members in support c f this traction, he thought he would be enabled to convince the House of their fallacy. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had said that he would vote for any mo tion that would enable them to remit any con siderable reduction of taxation ; but the lion. Gentleman said that the object of his giving his vote for this measure was, to reverse the policy which had been recently adopted. lie 'contemplated a duty on corn ef The reasons which he (Mr. La bouchere) should advance to the House, with a view of ineucing it not to agree to the motion cf the Hon. Member, would be altogether on different grounds. lie thought the Government had given practical proof thet they were disposed to reduce all unnecessary expenditure and excessive taxation, and it was the intention of the Government, as it was the duty of that House, t 3 reduce, as they could such expenditure and taxation. He be lieved that in the Government establishments is the year—the three great branches of the service—the :army, navy, and ordnance—the amount of reduction effected was not less than 730,000/., and, as compared with the year before, not less than 1,000,0001, sterling. He was aware that it was the duty of this House to take care that every economy should be carried into effect as far as could be consistently with the efficiency of the service, acd he felt that it was the duty of the House to take care that the public money should be expended with the greatest possible economy ; and seeing that the Government was acting in that spirit, he thought it was meet unfair, most unjust, and most ungrate fal, to put the Government in a situation in which they must feel emesarrassruent night after night. He bad a right to say that the conduit of the Government did not justify any such coutee.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that the evil cons( - quences which would result from such a coute would be fee greater than any annoyance that could be given to the Government. He believed there never was a time when it was of greater importance that the credit of this country shoul f he held high than the present. He believed, with the Ilon. Gentleman who brought forward this motion, that great distress prevailed in the country; but he felt that many of the statements which had been made that night had Leen made without any foundation, and that they were calculated to do the greatest injury,—(Hear, hear, and loud cries of h Titne, time.") lie would not detain the Mu e hut for a vsry f•w minutes, He thought that every ind tion of ecocowy h a d b een g i ven b y the Government, and he hoped that Hon. Members w ou ld not embarrass the Government, but a ll ow the estimates to be gon e on w i th. One word only befor e h e sat down. lie had heard with the delight which the whole House had the very able speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam worth—(Hear)—and he quite agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet that the strength of this country must de pend not on overgrown establishment.,but on Cs• t iblishments suited to the wants of the empire; and he agreed with him that it was not wise to push to an ex treme the care of our possessions, but he thought that lion. Gentlemen misunderstood tt e Right llon. Baronet when they supposed him to infer that they should shin don their possession of those colonies. His (Mr. Labou chere's) opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet's stat talent with regard to tie celonies was that the Government c f this country should be always in a position to afford to them in time of danger the defence which they might stand in need of, and as long es the Brithh empire hung together this country could not escape from the discharge of that duty.—(llear. hoer, and cheers.) Sir BOBER PEEL acid he wai net aware until he had heard the statement cf the Right Honourable Gen tleman the Presidont of the Boa d of Trade, that EO extraordinary a construction had Leen put upon tfc remarks he made relative to the maintenance of our garrisons. No man would be more prepared than himself to make vigorous exertions in defending the British etrp're, whenever it was in danger. What he said was, that with respect to so many garri sens in a time of p.ofound peace being kept in a state of p if et cfil&eecy, would be impossible, without entsiliog an overwhelming expense, and that rather than aclot t such a opus:., he wo.uhl prefer trusting to the natural exertions of the British empire to de'end any portion of it, whenever danger arose. Mr. MUN I Z t . a.id, that aft er t h e s' alert-lent c f the Right Honoureble the Secretary of War, th ere was no ort the moti on c f t h e alternative 1 , „:t him but t o supp -- Honourable Membee for West Surrey. The Right fI rnourable Gentlemen had ieformcd the House that the motion of the Lienourable Member last session had induced the Government t ) retrench to a considerable extent in various pubic orlizes. With such an admis sion staring him in the face, how could he avoid giving _his support to the rnwion, in the hope, and with the ex pectation, that further economic practices would be pursue f. Before the motion was subtnittlel, the Go vernment came down and asked for an income-tax, on the ground that the expenditure would rot exceed the revenue ; but after his motion, they not only ma - le the expenditure meet the revenue, but actually re duced. Taxation was intolerable, and it was quite clear that something should be done to take the pressure off industry. Mr. BROTHERTON said, if he thought the motion were calculated to reduce taxation for the benefit of the community, he should certainly support it; but believing it to be a trap into which the Honourable Member for Birmingham had fallen, and looking at the intent and meaning of those who proposed and supported it, he should vote with the Government against the propel sition.—(lronical cheers.) Lord DUNCAN said if the motion was a trap, it had caught him as well as the Hon. Member for Birming ham. He not only saw nothing objectionable in it, but something that he was prepared to support. He be lieved that it was brought forward with an honest in teation by the Hon. Member for West Surrey, and all he hoped and expected in return for hie vote was that when he (Lord Duncan) brought forward his motion for repealing the taxes on light and air, Hon. Gentlemen opposite, acting on similar principles, would afford him the same support. Mr. DRUMMOND replied. He felt neither indite ation nor contempt towards those who called this a dis honest motion; such charges were altogether unworthy of notice.—(Hear, hear.) But he would tell them what motions were " sham motions"—they were those motions that everybody knew would not press the Government. —(Hear.) Certainly, however amusing might be the discrepancies strung together in this motion, the discre pancies by which this motion had been opposed were not less amusing. One Hon. Gentleteau said it was a mere truism. "So powerful was it," said the Secietary at War, " that the Government had acted upon it last year"—(Cheers)—and another Hon. Gentleman said he would not vote for it because he would not be made a cat's paw.—(Laughter.) It appeared he had been mis understood when he dealt with the taxes that pressed pe culiarly on the labourer and the small farmer. He thought he had been explicit enough, for he took tobacco and hops, and various other things, as illustrations of articles the cultivation of which ought not to be interfered with by the Government. An Hon. Member had asked what ad vantage the people of Paisley would gain by the repeal of the malt tax. It was true that what they drank was not ale, but whisky; but it might as well be said that, as they did not live upon wheaten bread, but on Scotch porridge and oat cake, of what benefit to them was the opening of the ports to foreign wheat?-- (Laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Man gles) had contradicted one of his (Mr. Drumniond'e) statement?, but he happened to receive a petition from the people of Guildford that day, from which the House would be able to judge which of the statements was most accordant with the fact. (The Hon. Gentleman here read an extract from the petition to the effect that the petitioners, believing there was no probability of a return to protection, considered the duty on malt, hops, and bricks most inconsistent i n p r i nc i p l e, and unfair and in jurious to the farmer, and prayed for their total repeal, and fir liberty to the farmer to grow any root whatso ever on his land. They also prayed, as the prices of all ncedfel c( mmodities were considerably reduced, that all public • salates and pensions should b e re d uce d i n a cur responding degree.)—(Cheers.) " Believing there was no probability of a return to protection "—this was the language cf mcn who, they were always told, would listen to nothing but getting back a ss. cuty on corn. (fttar.) The Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. Mangles) newest neighbour—than whom a more respectable man did not exist—called his labourers together lately and told them, " My good fellows, I'm not able to pay yr'u for your labour as I have done. Two courses are open to me—l will either keep you all on at reduced wages, or I must tern off some of you altogether." The men took a day to consider of it, and they all agreed to work for him at reduced wages.--(Hear, hear.) He was surprised to hear Honourable Gentlemen talk as they had done about his making light of the publics credit. What he said was, that they had not kept faith with the public debtor—(Hear, hear)—and, therefire, it was those Honourable Gentlemen, and not him, who had taught the country to hold the public creditor so very cheaply. He had several times said he would rather vote for a higher property-tax than endanger the rights of the public creditor. Whenever he heard Hon. Gentlemen ta'k as they had done on this sulject, it always forcibly reminded him of La Fontaiee's fable. The public debtor 'yes like the poor animals which the lion was told it had done too great an honour to by cracking their bones; but the public creditor, like the jackass of the fa' le- - (Laughter)—as soon as it saw it was about to be interfered with, exclaimed, " Comment! vous ne mangericz point le foie d'autrui."—(Renewed laughter.) He had repeatedly warned the House of the peril arising from the doctrines cf repudiation that were growing up in the country; and the fact was, our whole system of legislation had produced a most vicious stats of things, enabling a few greedy capitalists to realise colossal fortunes amidst a starving people. And a remarkable proof of this was, that when Mr. Pitt was enacting the legacy duty, he thought it absurd to establish a legacy duty for the case of the millionaire, as it was then supposed to be utterly impos sible that such enormous fortunes could be amassed by particular individuals. In conclusion, he maintained that this was no sham or covert motion; it was plain and in telligible; and therefore he looked for the support of the House upon it. The House then divided, when there appeared-- For putting Mr. Drummond's motion 156 Against putting it ... ... 190 Majority —34 Mr. Drummond's motion was accordingly lost. RELIEF OF OCCUPIERS NOT OWNERS OF LAND FROM COUNTY AND POLICE RATES. Sir HENRY HALFORD moved for leave to bring in a Bill to relieve the occupiers of lands and tenements, not being owners thereof; from the payment of county rates and county police rates. Mr. PACKE seconded the motion. Mr. W. MILES d.:clared that the prop )sition came upon him unawares, end called attention to some diffi culties that might arise in the operation of the Act, but did not oppose the introduction of the Bill. Sir. GEORGE GREY would not object to the intro. ciuctien of the Bill. Tne effect of it would be to sepa rate the poor rate from the county rate, but he would not than give any opinion on it. After a few words from Mr. Acnrozenv and Mr. Paean, the motion was agreed to. ADMISSION OF JEWS TO PARLAMENT. Mr. PAGE WOOD, in bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice, would not detain the House at any length. The ma.t2r which had ei ea rise to it was notorious, and it was unnecessary for him to enter into any detail on the subject. The House was aware that the city of London had returned to Parliament, when it first met, a gentleman who was unable to take his seat in that House in consequence of certain oaths which were necessary, or which were supposed to be nc c•:,e.sary, to be taken by Members at the table Wore tak ing a seat in that House. That gentleman afterwards, in consequence of a Bill introduced and passed through the House by a considerable majority being rejected in another place, resigned bis seat, and the same gentle man was again returned by a large majority of the electors of the city cf London.—(Hear.) As one of those electors, and having been called upon by several others a that great body (under ot h er circumstances it would be great presumption on his part to do so), he had taken upon himself to submit this motion to the House with a view to have a full inquiry into all the circumstances which might be requisite for the purposes of tie House arriving at a conclusion on the subject.—(llear, hear) It was a matter which it was puts impossible to withhold from the considera tion of the House far any length, .eel period. Nobody could suppose that a gentleman, who was twice returned by such an important constitueccy as that of the city of had Lond been ake hie seat in the House, would be permitted to remain in that situation without a decision being come to oue way or the other with reference to his position.—(Hear.) It was not for him (Mr. Page Wood) to prejud.;e the question, his object merely was to have a Committee of Inquiry appeintel, and he rested his proposition on a prect dent he had found in the jour nals, meth reference to the case of Mr. Pease, when he claimed a seat in tl SA House on making an effirmeCon, be toad of taking the oaths in the form prescribed by the latest Act of Parliament cn the subject—the Sth Geo. 111. Upon that oc:asion Mr. Pease was not al lowed to take the ea' rmatioe until a full inquiry was made on the subject; and he would precisely adopt the course then t.ker, making only such changes in the form of the motion as the peculiar circumstances of this case rendered necessary. The form of the motion in Mr. Pecse's ca e was, that a Select Committee should be ap pointed to iv-arch the journals cf the House, and to re port such pre . c!.dents and such Acts or parts of Acts of Parlirme, t, ra relation to the persons celled Quakers taking their seats, and making a solemn affirmation where Oates ought to ho taken. Tee mctiou ho had to pre ant to the House was the same, substituting the word Jews for Quakers. He proposed to move for a " Select Com mittee to search the journals of this Louse, and to re port such precedents and such Acts, or parts of Acts of Parliament, as relate to the question of Jews or other persons being admitted to take their seats in Parliament without being sworn upon the Holy Gospels Yeas-; and, fur ther to irquire and report in N+ hat traater Joseph , EFq., on taki ng hi s seat in this House, in the year 1833, made affirmation to the effect cf the oaths required by law to ben taken by Members bef, re taking their sta. s in this Hse ; and also to inquire and re port in wile' manner Jews end other persons not prc fessing the Christian religion are Permitted to make oaths in courts of justice and other places where an oath is a.lowed, authorisel, or required to be taken." lie bAieved those inquiries would produce important in formation to assist and and guide the House in arriving at a determirmeion as to the steps to be taken with re gard to the peculiar situation of the city cf London at the p.essnt m oment.—(llear, hear.) It there could be unanimity in the question between both Houses of Par liament, to remove all doubt, that would be the proper course to he taken, but at the same time he felt it was of great importaece that the privileges of the House, of which they had been at all times so tenacious, 'should not be heedl ess ly fed.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it would be quite impossible to assume that there was n intention of Winging forward any Bill f or the pur pose of e( t ling this question. No one could suppose that the whole matter of the election of Baron Roths &ila for the city of London should be determined without inquiry, or should be excluded from the House, or ..flowed to reu:a:n in his present position, or that the