The Sun. — London, England, 1850-02-20 00:00:00

b, 'ei 1! U ahip uld 4 g can rise to gi ve any rea.a:n why these taxes United be alone.Oaraed upon the real procerty of the Kingdom. Tiley aro leviod in a form ahiell giros no security for our happy ey3tein of seif-goveric r4°ut• Tiat her spat na, if it be onatep . ly cured by the levying of millions, t' all of which in due time your attention will be called by the snff., ring land of England. Well, then, I Should prcpose if we went I .!lta Committee,as T hope we s h a ll, a secon d i-caaluti2n. that from tho 9 5th of ISSO, all these rates levied under t h e taainteaancemachinery o f t h e l aws for the rel i e f an d the oor, other than county rates and Police rates in (connexion with county rates, and other thentha the establishment charges, should be defrayed by Consolidated Fund.—(Cheers.) I hope that these Iwo res o l ut i ons, though not formally laid on the table, ' l6 aPeCifie enough for the Hon. Member for Montrose, 4 4 that ho will this night record his vote in their fa. " accordanc e w i t h the half-promise which he gave ar erd 'Y•—(A. l aug h.) Th ere is yet another respiration to ch I will venture to call the attention of the Heusi . .. the House will obs erve th a t th oug h I hale of with a ot exceeding 2,000,0001., the whok wil Fhich is furnished by real propsrty, and two.thirds oeti°h,,dircetly presses upon the suff:ring land, I nay( en u'Aral the House to violate a single one of those irn:°°tional Principe with which they have often lo_Pi.ed their sympathy. It cannot be said that we a i -e , eo 4kgri g the ancient institutions arid habits of t ‘ i e , laid in asking at the present moment, to free th b frora a contribution of taxes which have not only be en I . e r'ed within the last few years, but wh , i , oh .c l .i i i a .,d 1 ? -e or n unpo "r sed for p ur p oses w hi c h were never rn„oateel of by Statesmen or financiers until a very peried.--(Hear, hear.) There is another inaper pint subject connected with the administration of the th, ar l'w which I think, demands the consideration o f so use. I should propose a third resolution, that , e p r o 4l and after the same day in March, 1850, the canna: r throughout the Huffed Kingdom should lid a char throughout transferred to the general rJrenue of the (uear, hear.) That is not at the present 44 •"t a paro c hi e l charge. It is heavy in Scotland, soI4 England it i s veste d: upon the union rate, the the - e tn fund. It i s a l so an amen d ment open to none af t o a7e.tections with which we aro met when we attempt ta,C,rt the distresses of the agricultural classes , by (eli I N any porton of their peculiar burden : - . a t : er a.) Now, Sir, I think there is much to be said in Place•ef them propositions. They are, in the . first s,,,cejUSt.- -- (Cheers.) They are, in the second . piace, t 4litt practicable.--(Cheers.) They require no lmettlachinerr they destroy no old machinery, and the zi.aritilherfirtiherernefna.,itybe furnished by that balance in the which we have heard . so much.—(Hear that Iti g h tf , r:) I have thought, acting with rey friends, ,the present state of aim - fel-stances it wet of the e had to 1046 ,:rnportance that auy suggestion thet w vsta 3 3l ',.ould be, one into which the elements of c eit,os 4 lee t • " 1 - 14 1 very slightly enter. None of those . great .as Sege l "' which entered into the gnesaan I ~t te nt ' ' t hen it was argued, can be noticed . in the pr te °ll e, and fortunately we have at last a Minister of Fi gtee)4 who need not plead in forma pauperis.—(Laugh thste 'ill . , Sir, there is another recommendation far theNistares which I will attempt to i m p ress u p on N tu tid erat i on of the Noble Lord. They naty Jam tehozsifle ro d slight, though they are practicable. ; ' 4l %a aro cf indefinite and almost of unimsginehle nee lt 'lnce when we look upon then as the cammences f Ne er new ere, which will do justice to the land e isact;"un tr y._(Cherrs.) It is of the highest impel-. tith e t this moment that the Parliament, which on i l? Itith alst of January, not only refaced to sympathise a „ e at e'en to recognise, the unprecedented distress . "Fresraion that new prevail in England, d_ai t ly e because they a crc wedde I—l am t hey unnourehly wedded—to the conviction upon which tnd~l 4 ,l °C 1--shonid at least show, the Noble Lord ,axpress e d himself on the ocea.ion, that if any tlta measures were brought forward for the mitaga thot:' that distress which did not run counter to any of Lpyr convictions of political economy to which be is Whe ti 8 0 fondly d evote d , h e wou ld g i ve to those propoei elte c andle, a considerate, and even an indulgent at- I think it of ()Teat importance—l s c a r ce ly' can •t } 1 ;,` 4 , 0 Nobl e L or d would n think it of slight i m p or t ance 711 °s should d o so a t a moment lik e the present, tk i a feeli ng wh i ch I will not dilate upon, but which Aam justified in s a yi ng i s one o f a very ser i ous l a l - c"r, pervading large classes cf the community, ,'„ lt s if to aggravate their annoyance, their suffer- IKELat.-`° o st:eitatiously placed in contrast with the ram- NANsperity of universal England.---(llear, hear.) It l asti i ,:,,ud a Minister presiding over an overflowing 11 1 -4--- gi Minister, the representative of doctrines 1p produced this universal prosperity—l will not 'utia o - ,„'s cost of agricultural distress, but suspiciously h °1.4 a0; 14 ,, 41 t with it—l can conceive no position happier, h' s ° o i al'lleitou s than that in which the Noble Lord ,; t ali a s „ - Tus fir 11 . * , coming and saying, " I have an un ..;lll,th trer" eiples upon which the commer- Mtl e" st ur En ' gla p nel in is founded; I believe those prin- I V 4 th' „`° whi a a - I gave a tardy but sincere assent. jo t N.744rattt_l cause of the wide-spread prosperity of I, i bt t est • h r Y• I deeply deplore . that any important fJe j on l ; the State is at this moment suffering, has kip t suff,rinv, and, unfortunately, has not a t t .: e- a ° r very immediate renovation ; but I am 5- Th ; 3 .i a practical statesman, that I can come 1,J 14 l!le tcl et .7`. l l. Prove to the landed . classes of the country, qt I,•;_ct_aters of the soil, te all connected with the l '°Rland, that there is in the Ministry and On 'Zs % 41;•ateent of England a sincere sympathy with rc ll3 ; and what is still more important—the I, 4 llg,tri some d egree , t o m i t i gate th em ."—(Ch eers. ) l 'a h m with confidence to the Noble Lord, b ecause b e tilkam'ntoro than oras occasion shown—what must be tote,to him---a sympathy w ith th e agr i cu l tural classes. .+8 tt i ld the Noble Lord before, not for myself, but s With whom I are the honour to act, that we h^li ta t ongh t to mix up any party spirit with our strug ltt`) d 0 t.) our suffering constituents.— (Tear, th, 4 4 4 ', hope, therefore, that the Noble Lord, if ho is l o ; t %Ice le to these . temperate these moderate, 11),, t'it'he requests, will not be ' prevented . from Orki course he thinks right . because lie thinks he 11,4 life the shadow of a party triumph to gentlemen on i k a'• Teal assure him that if he will act in this ItZta„ l " shall have no wish to avail ourselves of any h t ,7%,; 112 1)13. I shall think that the Noble Lord . on . . t N t tlea,,, a "ta upon others, has acted like a high-spirited p 0 1t 1t 7,,, and a wise statesman, and has not been tap'''ed .Pu from doing that which is just, and not \,t 4 ) ,. 143 t but politic, because a suggestion has tokei,""s to him by a political . opponent. ' I , hear.) But if I make this appeal hfrAC lt) bic Lord, I would also venture to addres l s l IN:ration to the House. The House is well ti k ‘Pte - th e agitation which exists upon the aub:ect of distress and d.Tression of the agricultural 110 one can say that we have exaggerated . it, littl!liqt‘to heard from a high neithority the other night Vw s i all • Member for the West Riding—that h n e er b e e r s tat i n ce the Reform Bill, a greater disturbance . 4 a t . 4 1r1 England. Sir, lam not surprised that those te ? ati:r severely should feel ardently, and express t i n in language somewhat strong. But rernem \‘',t3 ` l ,.,,"ileipal characteristic of that agitation. What ,i , „ 4 1 1) „," 1 18 it not the expression of an opinion that it ~ `„ista ' eas to apply to this House? Wits it net a V'otit.',°afidence in the institutions of the country? 4 11: It :Ix," from sin Hon. Member.) The Hon. „ cheers as if I had sanctioned such appeals V)lt t ' on trary, I have never used, upon that subject, I ll age than I used in this House.—(hear, vsi ti never said one ce thing in one pla tn ' a tinther. —(Loud cheers.) I have always ex- PL I T tuabon . nded and sincere belief in the spirit e`, lll ; a ' - job . . I believe, is at the bottom of the heart a lL'atp ember of this House. I never supposed L'ltillt-I,totild come forward and that they would & 4 1; 1 ,, convictions, at which the majority have iN,L'il e - t rz iyed with some study, and many . with much L' .. ` .1 341 -;r orneiseberine• what the House did on the Ote e l b - ,,two '• ar s ago, I expressed the conviction, nio 3 st e' vernestly entertain, that this House ttl,.._•Ntluistead cf . an assembly that exhibited a cal rieltae\°the sufferings and representations of the N q nb4. b ody--would, on tho contrary, be an assem ti'qtt to express their sympathy, prompt 6,Ailti,ll4lßht bo even the injuries which their ,s l O beneficial in the main, had entailed on )t 'a °II-4 1 l feel that conviction now. I ii:i . , l i n .h tl o e f lo livrB4 .th e li al t s i s n , the present -- state of the country, td tl ‘,sti ort tltton s conceived, as I think, with so much 'ltta k - ,' In 4 spirit of so much justice, urged . l . hope, alt't k ater; they are not urged with temper it is my al, / a e _ l4 ` o o o -1 : ; ° ,! the - fault . of my friends—l cannot conceive h!itVil et ' s "°as of this character will be received with 1 4451; 1 1 'N a , ° PPosition.—(Cheers.) I hardly know with IlytiO t ; e nts we are to be met. All . the usual ones to tli,,t , .Ott„ . e r eferred, which might relate to a more am laZaat or2t to grapple with the subject, are entirely Dt b \ ta,„",4is discussion. All that they can say is, t han q - 1::o little. We may be told, as we have tQ k aye s re, that we, who were the advo ca t es of a " t ern, ought to be content with nothing less tl:'r"ore.etirllce to a protective system, and that Th eft ;I!laht,Qut will satisfy our constiuents. Th a t i s a tkis s leee'slann that, with great respect to Hon. G-en tifile,ne never condescend to reply to.—(Cheers.) A r ; ll ,ch confidence in the good sense of . the ~'',attAatal to believe that that is the view, I majority,the but of a considerable por- . 4, 4 1 , f 4 t -m k pv4 i luTar.) The) , are prepared, when the eon- Vi . ll ld t ueql opportunity, I doubt not, to yin lOatiatt_ principles which they think have , t t) ohl - ,hr -:"--(eheers.) But in this House. where we r o dged majority, which will scarcely tt,''lle'Ya..,;'N'ana of that nature, we aro only doing r , t t e jsii;, 4 i o only consulting their interests, in ' 11 ) -PPorturt"v to alleviate their burdens—to \ tl t „ al; l ,Fih fsr sufferings; and if we cannot ,4ea,„lllediately any great result, at least we tllltseh' Itch' his groat political purpose , ( 11 11 Ise the le " t ' • f the in k 1 1, nr' vl 111 not to despair or '11N21;4 .pi a t country. The Hon. Gentleman con 4it ' fl ud and repeat-- cheers, by moving for s nob 0 the whole P (louse, to take into its con- Ig:,11 1 ;r th e '" the of the laws providing fn. the S tl ttit tl d le P s °3 r of the United Kingdom of Great .I ° l 'ci l e i tl " Rs may mitigate the distress of the t e ttli Q ., 0.. 45 a5 ,, t tah o'er' d his satisfaction at the t k b s r 00Se I t 41 earl Y the lion• Gentleman in bringing ','l t 111111) ' tho al4l"ted les i . en the motion which ho had thc Hoes() ; and ho thought the agri :l 4 ' l ( re at) T indebted t o th e li on . G en tl eman t4' srlt, R Pi et , k in which h e b al acted. , After all that I,te a It ttu . Cluatv m 1 • to I 41 1 t th oetiogs within ths last few t„ 1 1 / 2 , 0 ea ch 0 propositions that had been 5ub 1„,1444 ; foraletitt3o:"lblizs, and the anticipations which peel 'au immediate, or at least an early " ecti " s Y r A" ll l—artn tho cheers which I tti .40 tv 1444 by tha - • se ated ° public oratory of some Hon. Mem ‘ery °ear the Hot. Gentleman—it was n qtll 4 14) find th e the or. Gentleman coming acmeof that nurnerom and distinguished party, and nooitist the cheers of that party declare that so long as the p.N sent Parliament should endure, a return to the protcoh ye syztens was iineossible.—(Minis t, rip,' cheers.) Tht Houre was greatly indebted to the He e . Go a lie:wen for this f: auk- and candid ivuwsi, and he was not open to t taunt of having slit: out of the douse; what he se nof provared to soy or had pots said ie the Houte.—(aerm , hear.) lie had not fostered or encouraged that in. seibievons delusion which hod. been festered and cecoute sscd at these agricultural meetings— which had led away the tenant-farmers • from the use cf those means which ] Providence had placed within their reach to meet the al tared circumstances of the times, to leek for that ignis 'elms, the restoration of protection —s protection whici t their great leader admitted to he utterly hopeless in the present Parlismenr.—(Cheers.) It was said that ,this expression of hopolessness was only applicable to the' d oration of the present Parliament, And that another :eat iianient -steuld mo,t probably return to the proteetive system. H utterly disbelieved in the possibility ref nay such return.—(Cheers.) believed the ineal ca' sole blessings of the present system of our cousin ercial policy were so w:dely had entered so much ire to the every-day comforts of every working matt in the country, whether manufacturing or agricultural—that to ey would never consent to a return to the old system. The lion. Member had avowed that the decision of both Houses at the begineing, of the session was a decisiv a expression of opinion that neither branch cf the Lagisl t tura were prepared to r. tern to a Protective system.— ( Hear, hear.) The lion. Member bad slid but little of •the actual distress, upon which the whole basis of his m rested. He had essure.•d the existence of extensive. and deep distress throughout the agricultural distrietts of the country, and the only allu sion which he had an ade to any partieuletoinstance of the distress, was a I supposition that if the returns rela tive to pauperism hail been made up to the Ist of Fe- bruary instead of the Ist of January, 1850, for the pur pose of comparison •ss ith the corresponding month of the preceding year, an i acrease would hive been found in the number of perm )ns receiving relief. Now he (Sir George Grey) cow :Wetted that to te porfectly gra tuitous assumption. There was no evidence to justify any such suppositi on, although perhaps in some instances, owing to the long-continued frost, draining and ether works of that description had been for a time suspends. i.—(llear, hear.) He did not wish to join issue with th e Hon. Gentleman opts the feet of the - existence of a gricultural distress. That fact had been fully admitted, and her Majesty had been advised to express her rears t at the exist :oleo of the; distress. No doubt prices ha! cl been so low as to eccesion distress :amongst the owner s and occupiers of land in various parts of the country •; bet this had arisen from a variety of causes, comprisic g among at others the free importa tion of grain in a y. ler when there war an abundaet har vest. But looking to the great portion of the agricul toted population of ~,ho country, there was sufficient proof of their condition 'having been materiagy improved, as compared with tit • preceding year. The best test of the condition of that population was the stare cf crime and pauperis es, and he would jest trouble the House with a few facts, for the purpose of showing that a brnefittial 611 set had bean produc,a3. On a com parison of crime, as evidenced by commitments in Eng land and Wales, i a 1848 and 1849, it appears that the commitments in 11 '.48 were 30,349; in /849, 27,772; showing a decrease in 1849 of 2.571, or 8.5 per cent. On comp arisen of th o number of persons receiving paro child relief on the let of January 1849 anti 1850 re spectively, it appear s that the number wee, en the Ist of January, 1849, 987, 164; 1?t of January, 1850, 923,167; showing a decrease in 1350 of G 3,997, or €.4 per cant. On an analysis of ti se returns, it appears that there has been a tieorease of crime in 31 counties; that there has been. a decreere of ± pauperism in 32 eountiert;; and that there are 20 of tbe above coenties in which there has been a decree to cf both crime and pauperism, comprising a popula ,ton of 9,204,58 G, nearly two-thirds of the whole, while there are only 9 counties (i:icludin 1 in Wales) in which there has been any increase but of crime and pauper ism. In confirmation of this state mont with respect t a the conntry genera!ly, he would read a few remarks addrested to the grand jury of Mid dlesex at the Contra al Criminal Court, by the Learned Recorder, on the 4th Feb. inst. The Learned Gentle man expressed his great satisfaction at the ditninuthon of the number of pr isoners committed for trial to this court. The jurisd lotion of the Central Criminal Court, he said, extended over a population of 2,000,000, and at the present session there were only 123 persems committed for trial, which was very considerably let than the number committed at the corresponding seesia.a of last year, and was also much smaller than the ordinary average of committals for the period that had elapsed since the last session; and he said that, to whatever cause such a result was to be a'tri blued, it must be moat satisfactory t) every person con cerned in the administration of criminal justice, and also to the community at large. The Learned Recorder then said that by alum. which were before him it appeared that there had been 593 less persons committed during the year 1849 than in the previous year; and he also congratulated the grs ,ud jury that robberies with violence, and other offences of' that character, appeared also to be on the decrease. It might be said that that related to the 2,000,000 of the population within the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court. He should therefore show the same results in Ae last country quarter sessions, and he hoped that v tould satisfy the Hon. Member for Essex. In England tied Wales the number of trials at the last quarter sessions in 1849 was 4,443—in the last quarter sessions, hel ;I in the present year, 1850, the number eras 3,980, being a diminution of 463, or a de crease of about 10 per cent.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gen tleman, in introducing the subject, had said little or no thing about Ireland, s.nd had not alluded to Scotland, no doubt because the report on the table with reference to the letter country did not strengthen his case. That re • port did show an iner easo of the poor on the roll, but it also showed a remark able decrease of that cities best distinguished as the casual poor in the year 1849, as compared with 1848. 1.1,e had received a letter from Sir J. Mimed, the Presid tent of the Beard of Works in Scotland, dated the 2::rat January, who, in reference to this subject, stated--"lnformation upon this subject (the state of the working classes in Scotland) from all parts of the country (*met; incidentally before the board in the course of invet tigations as to complaints of in adequate relief. Thr information derived from this source concurs with till:the other information to which I have access to estab fish the fact that, except in some parts of Scotland—agricultural, manufacturing, and mining— urban and rural, take a together, have not, during the four yearn that I have been connected with this board, been at any lime so well off as they have been during the /last half of 1349. There has been no other se ison within that time when the abundance of eriployment, and the general ade quacy of wages, with reference to prices, has enabled so large a proportion of the working population of this country to command an ample supply of the neces saries of life." He cEd not deny that distress existed, but it existed among the owners and occupiers, and in a much less degree Lhasa it did twelve months ago among the great bulk of the people. In many cases he believed their wages had been reduced to a greater degree than could be compensated for by any reduction that had taken place in the price of articles of food. But speak ing generally, and wort )'particalarly of that part of Eng land with which he wet, connected, North Northurnber land, he did not believe' that wages had been reduced to a greater degree than Si mid be compensated for by a re duction in the prices of the necessaries of life. He be lieved in some places in Lincolnshireafer instance where wages had been reduck t so low as 6e. per week, the re duction had been made to fall unduly on the labourer, rents not having b sen reduced at all in pro portion.—(Hear, heat...) He was surprised that in dealing with so import ant a subject as the poor-laws the Hon. Member fur B ucks had alluded only parenthe tically to a pun of the question of the greatest import ance to the great bulk: of the population—the lasso of settlement.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman did not this year propose to great transfer of the local taxa tion for the poor, been . use he was a rare it would lead to a national rate, and the abolition of the law of settlement. If they were to go int) Committee of the whole House upon elm subject of the poor-law, the very first question they would have to coeudder would be the law of settle ment. All the evidences collected by the Committee on that question showed that the law of settlement ope rated prejudicially to the interests of the agricultural labourer—that it restricted his labour, and that the greatest boon to him wt mid be a judicious alteration of that law. The subject had occupied the attention of the Government, and at no distant period ho hoped to be able to make some proposal to the House on that most important subject. Ho should now refer to the grounds upon which the II on. Gentleman rested his pro positions. The foundation of the whole argument of the Hon. Getleman was the injustice of exclusively bur dening the land with the payment of poor -rates. He thought the Hon. Ge) atleman had &lion into the same error this rear as he had last, of confounding real pro perty with - landed prc iperty. (Mr. Disraeli made an ob servation which was :3ot heard in the gallery.) Let it be understood, then, that in speaking of the property which contributed 12e000,000/. of local taxation, they were speaking, not of what was called the landed in terest, but of real prop 'rty assessed for the relief of the poor. The Honourablv Gentleman said it was not just that property connects l with the soil—those were his words—should bear ex( elusively that large burden, and the Hon. Gentleman is's' eke of land going out of cultiva tion in consequence of those exclusive burdens and of the continually increasing charges on land. The Hon. Gentleman had antici pated two objections—one he would admit, the other ho would combat—the impos sibility of taxing personal property for the purposes of the poor, the other, that from time immemorial real property had been exchnively subjected to that burden. He would take the last first, and was prepared to contend that ever since the 43d Elizabeth, the great bulk of red property had been exclusively subjected to the burden of the poor-rates. The 43d Elizabeth required that the rate should be on property visible and produc tive, awl in the parish in which the owner resided. That condition could not ex ist with personal property, and therefore the Legislata re excluded personal property from contributing to the ,relief of the poor. It was true that stock-in-trade had bee udeemed liable for poor-rate— (" Heer," from Mr. Ilent.te)—but, practically, it had never be en rated, and an ant. ual Act was new passed to sxetapt it. On this subject ho would read what wan stated in the report on local tuxittion, laid on the table le 1844. It stated that stock-In-trade had been held liable only on the supposition that it was visible and pro ductive. With: regard to the second objection, if the inapeesibility of rating 'personal property should lead to e national rate, no benefit would be conferred en the agricultural interest; and that he conceisod to be the gi eat:ebjection to the plan propos©d by the Honour eble Member for Bucke last year. In alluding to the increased burdens imposed by Act of Parliament on real property, and levied as poor-rate, the Hon. Member for Bucks had omitted one important fact, and that was the vrowing diminution of these burdens on the land.— (Hear, hear.) Lookiqg to the figures only, there ap deared increased burdens; but what were the facts? lie THE SUN, LONDON, held in his hand a paper, moved for by the Right Hon. Baronet the Meinber for Ripon in 1845, relating to those burdens, from the year 1813 to 1845. It appeared trona that paper that the amount levied on real property in 1813, for poor and county-rate, was 8,646,841!., end iu 1849, 7,674.1461., being ft:4out 1,000,001. less in 1849 than in 1813, although the population had increased from 10,448,000 in 1813 to 17,715,000 in 1849. The number who paid the rate had increased, while the charge had diminished from 12s. 80. a head to 6s. 6,1 per heal, be iug a diminution of nearly a half.—(Hear, hear.) He came now to another point on which the Hon. Member touched but lightly, and that was the proportion at which land was assessed, compared with other kinds of real property, for the relief of the peer. He had understood the Honoureble Member to say that the landed interest were assessed for two-thirds of the amennt. —(Mr. Disraeli dissented.) Ho begged the Hon. Member's; pardon. Ho believed he had not adverted to the subject, and it was therefore the more necessary that he (Sir G. Grey) should do so.—(A laugh.) On ref wring to the report of the Poor-law Commissioners of 1844, he found it stated that the value of rateable pro perty had gre•it!y increased aince 1813. In that year it was assessed to the value of 51,898,4231., but in 1843 it hal increased to 85 : 807,731/. So that the gross rate bad decrease;', although ►he value of real property had greatly increa'led. He found from subsequent returns that a progressive increase had taken plae:c in the vahte of real property down to 1848: In 1813 the value was 51,893,4231. 184.2 it had increased to 85,000,0001. 1841• ft ft 86,000,0001. 1846 71 tt 89,000,000/. 1843 01000,0x!01. With regard to the proportion between the value of land and the value of other real property, be held in his hand a return which showed the increase of each at dif ferent periods. There had been an increase in the value of landed property, but not to so great en exteut as the increase that hail taken place in the value of other kinds of real estate, such as house property and railways. It appeared therefore that land now paid 45 per ceat., in stead of 52, while other descriptions of real property paid 55, instead of 48 percent.—(Hear, hear.) In the report of the Lords' Cormnitti e of 1346 it was stated thet the rates had diminished, that property had augtnentei, and that the rates on the land had been greatly re duced. Ho should not now enter upon the Ties tion of the reductions affecting real property. He should only remind the House that in 1846 a sum of nearly 100,000/. had beer transferred from the local taxation for the pur p oses cf poor relief to the Consolidated Fend, and had since then been annually voted by Parliament. Having anticipated the two ob jections referred to, the Hon. Member for Bucks then claimed for real property an exemption from a large share of its present local burdens, on the ground that when they were imposed the protective system existed, and that it was unjust, now that that system had ceased, to exact these burdens to the same extent as before. Bat since the time of Elizabeth there had been various systems of protection, and ho thought it would puzzle the Hon. Member to show during the period that has since elapsed that corresponding advantages were en joyed by the land. There were othsr things which had been snore highly protecee i than bend, end the only difference between them and real estraie in this respen was, that land was the lest great branch of industry which lost its protection; and, therefore, if there were tiny grounds for the claim, land—rather than other kinds of industral property which had been deprived of protection at an earlier period—should bear these bur eCOF,—(fienr.) The proposlls of the Hon. Member for Bucks were embraced in three resolutions. In the first instance, he proposed that all established charges of the poor-law should he transferred from the local taxation —that they should no longer be borne by the property of England, Scotland, and Ireland, but that they should be paid out of the Imperiel Tresstiry. The lion. Mem ber had estimated these uscat'lished charges at 1,500,000/. but he believed the stument borne by England did not eecred. 776,0001. Mr. DISRAELI—The last ret ern made them 980,000/. Sir G. GREY—True; but in consequence of an Act which passed in the subiiequent year there was a reduc tion in their amount of 200,0001. The Hon. Member for Bucks stated that the transfer would not violate any principle, as these established charges did not stand on the same ground as the funds necessary for the relief of the poor. But there would be the greatest extravagance with respect to many of these charges if they were to take away the local check which at present existed. He believed if they were transferred to the Consolidated Fend it would be impossible to say to what extent these charges would be increased.--(Hear, hear.) The next proposition of the Hon. Member was that all other rates, county rate and police rate excepted, should be transferred from the local to the general taxation of the country. The amount of these difihrent rates the lion. Member estimated at 500,0001., the total amount of the rates proposed to be so transferred being 2,200,000/. Looking to some of the items comprehended in the minor rates, he was not prepared to say that his Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when be came to deal with any surplus revenue, might not cousent to some alteration. At all events, he was not prepared to ask the House to negative, by anti • cipation, the transfer of any particular charge, to which no objection could be made, from the local to thegeneral taxation of the country. In arguing against the pro posals generally, ho did not wish to prejudice any future discussion as to the transfer of tiny of the smaller charges, such as that male in 1846 at the suggestion of the Bight lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth. He was not prepared to say, that between those charges and those enumerated by the Hon. Member for Bucks any distinction in principle existed which would justify the House in refusing to make the change. In resisting the present proposal, the Government wore not to be precluded from considering and bringing forward any proposition of the kind to which he had referred. The. next proposal of the lion. Member was, that the whole charge for the casual poor should also be transferred to the Consolidated. Fund. The Hoe. Member had not even attempted to estimate the expense of the casual poor of England, Scotland, and Ireland, but proposed to transfer it at once to the Consolidated Fund. Mr. D/SR A ELI—Not the expense of the casual poor of Ireland.—(Laughter.) Sir G. GREY—There could be nothing more ob jectionable than to transfer the relief of the casual poor to the public treasury. Those who looked to the reports of the Poor-law Board were aware that there was no end to the examinations that took place to keep down this branch of poor-law expenditure; but if the expense was transferred to the public treasury, there would be an end to the reductions that had taken place. Ho denied that anything had ever fallen from his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to justify the lion. Member for Bucks in saying that the sarplue, if any, for the year would be available for carrying out his proposition for the relief of the casual poor. But sup posing a surplus was available, it would neither be just nor reasonable, without taking a comprehensive view of the interests or the country, to anticipate the appropria tion of that surplus, or to pledge the House to apply it to the particular object sought by the lion. Member, without considering how far it would really relieve the agricultural interest. Ho hoped the House was not pre pared, when the amount of the surplus was yet uncer tein—(" Hear" from Colonel Sibthorp)—to make any appropriation of it. Supposing the RV/is which the Hen. Member wished to transfer to amount to 2,200,000/., it was desirable to know to what extent this relief would benefit the agriculturists of England. Of that sum only aboat 1,500,0001. was ap plicable to England. He could not understand what ad vantage would be gained by the agricultural interest by the taking off their share of the anove taxation when it was plain they would lose the benefit of any other re duction that might be gained by a different application of the surplus or have to pay their quota of any new tax that might be found neeessary.—(Hear.) He believed the actual amount to the agriculturist by the reduction proposed would not exceed 3d. or 4d. in the pound, and he did not think they would be very thankful to the Honourable Member for such an amount of relief. He did not know that he differed from the Hon. Member when he said, speaking of the incidence of taxation on land, that there was a community of intorest between landowners and occupiers. On that point he would refer the House to a passage in the report of the Lords' Committee on the burdens on land. In that report it was stated that all fixed charges, such as tithes, were to be considered as a burden on the owner, but that fluc tuating charges during the tenant's holding were to bo considered as charges on the tenant, which he had an interest in diminishing, his rent being fixed. The moment, however, the tenant's occupation ceased, a now bargain was made, and the owner in creased his rent in proportion to the diminution of the charges on the tenant. In that case the landowner got the benefit in the shape of an increased rent. The lion. Gentleman had said that his proposals were re commended to the House by their justice. But he (Sir G. Grey) did nut think the Hon. Gentleman had esta blished that proposition. lie had shown that the charges in question had been assessed over since the paising of the 43d of Elizabeth ; and he had also endeavoured to show that the ground on which the lion. Gentleman had claimed that concession to the landed interest — namely, the abolition of tho protective system—was a ground which would equally apply to other branches of national industry to which the Hon. Gentleman did not propose to extend a similar favour. The Hon. Gentle man had said that his scheme was a practicable one. But he (Sir G . . Grey) did not consider that it was prac ticable to the extent which the lion. Gentleman pro posed, because it would require a lager surplus of re venue at • the end of the financial year than we were likely to have according to any cal culation that had yet been made. It would at the same time operate unjustly to other classes of the community, inasmuch as it would deprive them of any benefit which they might derive from a different em ployment of whatever surplus revenue might exist. He thought, also, that it would be unsafe, in many of its details, inasmuch as it would lead to extravagant expen diture by transferring a variety of charges from the local to the general taxation of the country. The Hon. Gentleman had laid that proposal before the House as one only of a series of measures which he wished to in troduce; but the House ought to be cautious how it adopted the first of that series, until the Hon. Gentleman should have told them what were the measures which were to follow, and where the money was to come from which was to give relief to the agricultural classes. They otielit not to adopt that first proposal until they knew to what it was to lead, or where the lion. Gentle man would invite them to follow. The Hon. Gentlemen had said—and he (Sir G. Grey) believed truly—that he was not in the habit of making statements in the House which he did not make out of it. The Hon. Gentleman had certainly been very unreserved in his communications at ;public meetings in the country during the late re cess; and they were not altouether in the dark with re spect to the next proposal which the Honourable Gen tleman would probably rucks. Tie he'd in his hand what he believed to be a revised and authentic copy of a speech delivered by' the Honourable Gentleman at the old baronial hall of Castle Ileadinghatc, iu Essex, in the course of which speech the Honourab le Gentle man, after having advocated a transference I if the local taxation of the agricultural districts to t bee general taxation of the country, had stated that that N nee not the only relief to which the agriculturists were ev titled, and that it would not by itself enable them to bear up against the 'shored circumstances in which ieey were placed. The Honourable Gentleman had f pee on to say that, immediately after the assembling of Parlia ment, he thought that all England ought to g pray for the establishment of a sinking fund, and t bat, in his opinion, the best and most practical way at`' creating such a fund was to lay an ad valorem duty on all articles of foreign import.—(Hear, hear.) The lis 'nourablo Gentleman hal added, " That is the weal son—the charmed weapon—with which we shall win th a battle. Put that weapon into the hands of any knight whom you may choose to fight your betas, and I stoke my political reputation on its success." Now, he (Sir G. Grey) thought they had a right tto know whether the Hon. Gentleman still staked his: political reputation on the success of such a proposal, :and wte then if they were to agree to that motion, they were to have an ad valorem duty upon every article I d • foreign import, including, of course, the article of cor'? That was a question to which he hoped the Hon. (ii , ntleman would give an explicit answer before they shy atsld go to a division upon the subject then tinder their )esidera don. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman th at ho heel listened with much satisfaction to the tempera te tone of his address that evening; he did not think tt ere was a single expression in the speech of the lion. t leintleman which could give pain to any one; and he c Lily hoped that in the answer he had ennoavoured to gi es to that speech ho had avoided stating anything which could give offence, and not only which could give offence, but which could indicate a want of sympathy on his pert ha the dis tress which prevailed among a portion of th e agricul tural body. lie should observe, however, that: the lion. Gentleman himself considered that a return us the pro tective system, es a remedy fsr that distress., was fir the present, at least, perfectly hopele 6s. All his (Sir G. Grey's) interests were intim t -ly con nected with the prosperity of the agricultural la )dy ; and he believed that nothing could be mere prej u dicial to that body than to lead them to expect great r lief from any system which Parliament could pursue. He was convinced that a return to the protectirri system was at present utterly out of the question. Ile be lieved that such a measure would be mis chievous to all classes of the community. Ho belies •ed that the true interests of the agricultural body a - ere inti mately bound up with the true interests of et , e ry other class in the community, and that it was impo: Is able that manufactures could fi mrish i n any country in which agriculture depressed.se-(FI c en ) H e admitted, stated, that di s t ress inreva il e d as washe among a portion of the agricultural classes; , that was h r a e d 7rn be Ti f n ire e s no reason why they should not endeavour o ► improve their condition by energy, industry, and the a 3 plication of increased skill and capital to the cultivati o n of the land. He trusted that the result of the dis tcussions in that House would be to undeceive those w b o might have been misled by whet on one occasion bad been called the "splendid coruscations" of the IL re. Mete ber far Buckinghamshire. Ho trusted that arhe plain souse which people were compelled to speak in tle at House would have the effect of showing the agricul tsarists of the country, who admired, and justly admired„ the elo quence cf the lion. Gentleman, that they had been de ceived, and that they had been led to indulg 3 in vain anticipations of large measures of relief, espece: Illy by a return to the protective system. Ile trusted diet they would see that they only injured themselves b:a that de spondent spirit, which was encouraged and fi s !ered by persons who, for their own sakes, should has endea voured to create among them a very different te .roper of mind. lle believed that the discussion on the address, which had taken place ut the commencement o f the sesl sion, the discussion upon the present occasion,, and the discussion which would take place on any subs, quest proposal which the Hon. Gentleman might r r eke for completing the series of measures which he w. yuld wish them to adopt, would have the effect of leading the agri culturists of this country to look to themselves ;for a re medy of the evils of which they complained by a better cultivation of the land, aad the employment of that in dustry and energy which distinguished all c Lssaes of Englishmen, and which they, too, possessed. —(Rear, hear.) For the reasons ho had stated, he fe lit bound to oppose the motion which the Hon. Gentle men had made.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. CHARTERIS said he felt bound to str t eport the motion. It appeared to him that the speech of t b e Right Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the 110 use had been mainly directed to show that the burdens on laud had been considerably diminished in consequenc e of the increased value of house property during the la st 30 or 40 years. But if the burdens were in thernselsets unju't, as he (Mr. Charteris) believed them to be, he &it that their being at present less than they had form ealy been afforded no sufficient ground for opposing their :removal. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire bad based his claim for a removal of those hat dens on the prevalence of agricultural distress. Now, he (Mr. Charteris) did not deny the existence of that distress, although he did not attribute it to the same cause to which it had been attributed by the Hon. Gor itleman, and he did not believe that it would be permanozit. But be did not wish to come before that House in formapau peris, while ho thought that he could claim redress as a matter of simple justice. It appeared to him. that the Hon. Gentleman had damaged has case, and had preju diced the interest of his constituents, by making an appeal ad misericordiam in their favour. The question at issue was, what is tit e law of England upon the subject of poor-law taxa• tion ? That taxation :rested on the 43d of ILFzabeth, which enacted that every man should be called :apon to support the poor in proportion to his ability. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary cf State for the Home Department had attempted to show that Lord Mansfield was of opinion that personal property did not come within the operation of the statute. Bret Lord Mansfield had merely asserted the impolicy, or the im practicability, of so extending the measure ; anti Lord Kenyon, and the other judges of England, had declared in the year 1795, that personal property, including stock in trade, was liable to the poor -rate. That liability was supposed in the preamble of tho very Act which was passed each year for exempting stock in trade from the rate. That latter Act was,the believed.. 'un just in principle and temporary in its character, while the old law upon the subject was just and reaoomable. The modern Act was only passed for a year, because no Minister would venture to propose the permanent operation of such a measure. —(Hear, hear.) Let it be remembered that the charge& for lunatic asy lums and for the constabulary, the borough rate, the hundred rate, and several other rates, had of late years been added to the bur dens on real property. Now, it seemed to him to be only just that personal property should be made to bear its fair share of all these burdens —(Hear, hear). But it was said that it would be impos sible to levy a rato upon personal property. Now, he could not agree in that opinion, for he believed that the raising of an income-tax clearly proved that a poor rate Might be levied upon the profits of trade. Ho believed that in such cases where there was a will there was a way, • and that the difficulties which were apprehended is the matter would, if boldly grappled with, rapidly disappear. But even if the Legislature and the Govern ment could Rut do justice to the agricultural interest in that way, then he said that they were bound to offer them compensation in some other form. He did not mean to defend the different modes in which the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire proposed that they should receive relief, because he was well aware of the force of the argu ment that a transference of many of those local charges to the general taxation of the country would open the door to abuse and to extravagant expenditure. There were other changes, however, which might be made without aliability to that objection, which he admitted to bo a valid one, fur be believed that this country owed much of her great ness to her system of s elf - government and her municipal institutions, and he should be sorry to see established among us that centralisation, or that bureaucratic sys tem, which generally prevailed throughout the conti nent. But it appeared to him that the charge far lunatic asylums, for gaols, for the constabulary, and several others, could be transferred to the Consolidated Fund without interfering with our system of local self-govern ment. He could not help. thinking that manufacturers and fundbolders ought to be made to contribute to tho support of the poor and to other local burdens. Tbey were as much interested as the agriculturists in the inter nal tranquillity of the country. If there should be a disturbance in the manufacturing districts, it would not be the land, b u t the mills and factories that would be ondangered—(llear, hear)—and if there should be an insurrection in -Lancashire or Yorkshire, that would necessarily react on the Stock Exchange, and create a fall in the value of the funds. The agricultural interest had, therefore, a right to claim an alteration in the present mode of rating property, or some equivalent compensation if that alteration should bo found inexpe dient.—(Hear. hear.) Mr. ANDERSON said he had given notice of an amendment to the motion of the Hon. Member for Buck inghamshire, but he thought it better not to bring forward that amendment, as it was, in his opinion, desirabl e th at the motion of the lion . Member should be considered upon its own merits. He was happy to think that a return to the protective system was at present impossible in this country. lie had made as accurate an estimate 58 it was in his power to have made of the sum which the inhabitants of these kingdoms had since the year 1815 paid for their corn in addition to its fair and natural value, in consequence of the imposition of the corn-law; and after estimating that value at the price in foreign markets and the cost of freightage to this country, he found that that sum amounted, at the lowest calcula tion, to 750,000,0001., or about the whole of our national debt, for the home market. He should be sorry to view this question a; a class question; but if it were to be so viewed he should stand by his own class, which was the most important in the country.—(Hear, hear.) It the match were to he all England on one side, and Lanca shire and Yorkshire on the other, he should play on the side of all England, and not despair of success in spite of the hard bitting of the Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, or the somewhat crooked bowling or the lion. Member for )Manchester.—(A laugh.) The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth expressed in 1840 his appre hension that the removal of protection would lead to unfavourable results, as regarded not only the agri culturiets, but the classes identified with thorn in interest. It was not t Hansardisee the Right Hon. Baronet that he made that reference; but because in then expressing the views ho (Mr. Seymer) now en ter tained, the Right Hon. Baronet stated the results of his previous t xpsrience, answered the speeches he had since made, and Tittered pre lietions which had since been ve rified. If the Right Hon. Baronet were present he might ask, Had any one too much? No; many had not enough, as any one might see from letters which had appeercd in the Morning Chronicle. So much English corn was displaced for foreign; and if so much Ea ;lisp labour were displaced wages of the whole would be re - (laced. The reason why so little seemed likely to be done for relief of the distress was that it was spoken of as temporary, because the price of corn was rising. Honourable Members seemed afraid of their own principles, for if they were to buy in the cheap est market the cheapest market could not be too cheap; yet attempts were making on the Minis terial side of the House to show that prices would rise. Why, these lion. Gentlemen ought to prove that they would fall.—(Hear.) There were two sections on thet side--the friends of agriculture, who tried to show that this year was exceptional; and the Free-traders, who thought it would not matter if not a blade of corn was grown in the country. The argument drawn from the poor-law returns was feflecious; it cost the farmers less is employ labourers at low wages than to keep them in the workhouse. Ile egreed with the propo'al of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire in thinking that tie establishment charges under the poor-law should be transferred to general taxation. Ho knew persons allied with Free-traders who said, if there woe not a change for the better in agriculture they would be prepared to consider the question.—(Elear ' hear.) As there was a desire to di v id e t o - n i g h t , if possible, he should detain the House further only to express his j confidence that if they were to have no protection or re lief f.-urn local burdens, if Excise regulations inconsist ent with the first principles of free trade were conti nued, they would defeat Hon. Members on the other side before the end of the session. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. RICE, while he could not think the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire expected the House to adopt his motion, would nut have been prepared t - i object, had the proposition bsen to appoint a Select Committee to in quire how far these local burden s m i g ht h ave been ad jutted so a; to give relief to the agricultural interest. Had the lion. Member for Orkney (Mr. Anderson) per slated in his amendment he should have moved an amendment thereupon. [An HON. MEMBER—The two Kings of Brentford.] As long as Hon. Gentlemen ad hered to the idea of protection they would get no relief in any other way; till they had abandoned it the House would not fairly consider the question.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Ho had always voted for an alteration of the corn-laws with the lion. Member for Wolver hampton (Mr. Villiers), but had supported the motion for a fixed duty, and thought a strait duty fir the pur pose of revenue would be an advantageous settlement of the question. The farmers were in advance of Hon. Members. He held in his hand resolutions of the Far mers' Club in the Isle of Thanet, stating thee in their opinion the battle of protection had been fought and lost. In lieu of protection they urged other measures of re lief, which were at least worthy of consideration. They urged that the income-tax should be levied in a different manner from what it was at present; that the parochial and county rates should be levied on property and in come generally; that the duty should be taken off malt and other similar articles, and placed on the import of finch articles of agricultural 'manufacture as meal and flour, end, lastly, they asked that the salaries in all public departments should be reduced in a corresponding degree with the price of provisions. Many of these pro positions be thought just, and all of them worthy of con sideration; but he rose chiefly to say that the agricul tural interest could have no claim to these advantages until they had honestly abandoned all idea of a return to protection. He wished to see all these questions fairly considered on their merits; but he was act pre pared to vote for the very extensive measures of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire. Instead of bringing these matters forward in a single motion, he agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet that they should have occupied a series of resolutions.—(Hear.) Sir J. TYRELL said, he was remarkably well satis fied with the speech which the Hon. Gentleman had just thought proper to make—as well satisfied as the Hon. Gentleman could possibly be himself—(A. laugh)— giving the House all the advantage of the various argu ments he had made use of, and admitting, as he had done, the justice of those, propositions which had been so ably advanced by his Hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire. He did not know, however, that he could gtve the Hon. Gentleman credit for great disin terestednees, considering the proximity of the Isla of Thanet to the town of Dover, and the natural anxiety which the Hon. Gentleman entertained with reference to the future representation of that town.—(A laugh.) It was true the farmers, as a body, had refused to petition that House, agreeing with the Hon. Gentleman that however just their claims they had little to expect from Parliament. They did complain, however, of the great disrespect with which their clahns had been treated by the First Minist , 'r of the Crown in the speech from the Throne. The Noble Lord and his colleagues said they had heard that certain landowners and occupiers of the soil complained, and that was immediately followed by an expression of satisfaction at the comforts which had been enjoyed by the great mass of the community in consequence of the extreme depression and great lowering of prices. That seemed to him to be much the same sort of satis faction as a man enjoyed when he broke into the larder and robbed the till.—(Great laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet had drawn a great picture of the prospe rity of the country arising from the diminution of the poor-rates; but he (Sir J. Tyrell) would venture to say that that diminution, of nearly 400,0001., had arisen en tirely from the circumstance of great economy and a better management of the machinery of the poor-law, and not from any other cause. The agricultural inte rest considered themselves deeply grieved in another thing. An Honourable Gentleman of great ability had been put forward to move the answer to the speech, who, in his opinion, had been treated with somewhat of neglect and injustice. The Government had brought that Honourable Gentleman out, as one of the brightest weapons in their armoury, finally to dispose of the question before the House. And now, with the per mission of the Honourable Gentleman, he would cha racterise him as "the destroyer," and the Hon. Member for the West Riding as " the divider of the spoil"— (A laugh)—and he would make good that proposition. The Noble Lord at the head of the Govt rnment said some time ago, with the greatest triumph and con felence, " If it can be shown that the poor man pays is., or 23., or 3s. a week more for his bread than he would otherwise pay, are you prepared to face that?" He (Sir J. Tyrell) answered that with this proposition. If the Hoe. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, in the receipt of 1,2001. a year—no sinecure, he admitted— could cause that 1,2001. to be equal to 1,5001. or 1,6001, he could quite understand the Hon. Gentleman's readi ness and preparation to face that —(A laugh.) That proposition perfectly squared with his understanding.— (Renewed laughter.) In his opinion the Hon. Members for Wolverhampton and the West Riding ought at that moment to be sitting on the Treasury bench aide by aide with the Hon. Member for Westbury, and he should like to know what offer had been made to the former of those two Hon. Gentlemen with reference to the accep tation of office, for he could not believe that his merits had been overlooked.—(A laugh.) He did know that a proposition had been made to the Hon. Mem ber for the West Riding to take his seat on the Trea sury bench, and he knew the details of it. He (Sir J. Tyrell) bad made that statement once before in that House, and he hoped the Noble Lord would excuse him for asking this slight interrogation, viz., whether ho did not know that to be precisely the fact?—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord smiled; but notwithstanding the num ber of years he had sat opposite to the Noble Lord, he was unable now to say, from the indication of his countenance, whether that slight interrogatory was answered, and whether the Hon. Member bad been offered office or not.—(Great laughter.) He would as sume, then, that silence gave consent. He would go still further, and tell the House and the country—for it was no breach of confidence—that a commissioner had been sent from the Government to offer office to the Hon. Member for the West Riding; and ho would tell the House further the answer of the Hon. Member, for it was an answer characterised by the sagacity and good sense which generally distinguished the Hon. Gentleman as a Member of that House. The Hon. Gentleman said, " I can't accept office, because if I do my power with the people is gone—l shall no longer have that power either in the House or the coun try which I now have—my accept ance of office will altogether deprive me of that confi dence which I now enjoy."—(Hear. hear.) That was in reality a great disadvantage to the agricultural in terest, because it enabled the Noble Lord, who traded upon the opinions that from time to time filtered through the Manchester Chamber , to say that he main tained the Government and the principles of the Consti tution, whilst he was not encumbered with any of those inconvenient sentiment. which occasionally fell from the Hon. Member for the West Riding, although they were not given utterance to in such unmistakeable language in that House as elsewhere.—(Hear, hear.) But the Iron. Member for the West Riding showed great saga city in his commercial manner of handling the question. He (Sir J. Tyrol)) was at first not aware, that when the Hon. Gentleman declined to accept office, he was in re ceipt of a reward of 70,0001., but seeing that he pocketed the dividends arising from that sum, he admitted that the least thing he could do was to acknowledge it in the way he slid.—(Hear.) Afteralluding, amidst considerable impatience to the inconsistency of the views enunciated at the lets Russian loan meeting with the principles of free trade, the Hon. Baronet proceeded to complain fleet the speech or the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of the Home Department, on the present occasion, was a most unsatisfactory reply to the address of the Hon. Member for Bucks. One part of it consisted of a reply to a speech delivered by the Hon. Member for Bucking hamshire last year; another part consisted of the re production of the leader in that day's Morning Chroni cle—(Laughter)--and the remaining portion alone was devoted to the address of his Hon. Friend that evening. The Right Hon. Baronet had given the agriculturists credit for possessing indomitable energy and perseve rance; and, by Heavens! they would use those quali ties to obtain that justice to which they felt themselves entitled.—(Hear.) Mr. HOBHOUSE considered the speech which had just been delivered. as well as that of the Honour- Mr. SEYMER, adverting to the indisposition of Members on the Ministerial side to admit that agricul ture was in a depressed state, asked whether farmers must break windows to show that they were distressed, or talk treason to manifest their dissatisfaction ? The farmers would take neither of those courses, for they were proverbially a loyal body. Bat in the middle of the nineteenth century loyalty was not likely to assume a very romantic character. When a class found itself , wending in the social scale the enthusiasm of its loyalty was likely to suffer some abatement. This was eznphatlealy a farmer's question, and he represented the opinions of his constituents in advocating the M em. Tho Honourable Member for Manchester would, perhaps, say that he (Mr. Seymer) represented only 6,000 stupid farmers, whilst he himself represented 12,000 enlightened manufacturers. But in the United States the case was reversed, for there the manufacturers were in favour of protection, whilst the farmers wanted free trade. It was not at all clear to his mind that the cotton spinners had not made a bad:speculation in their free -trade move ment. On the other side of the Atlantic the same skill and energy on which the cotton spinners here relied, with coal and iron, and cotton grown on the spot, wore to be found. With cheap labour the United States would undersell the cotton spinners of this country, who would then be very glad, though too late, to have protection WEDNESDA Y yEVENING, FEBRUARY 20, 1850 - - and by his successor since, how could any man of erdie nary capacity and of common feeling dare to get up and demand the re itoration of a system which had entailed upon our poorer population such awful consequences as the returns demonstrated?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman must not put his proposition as in some sense a compensation for what the agricultural classes lost in 184$. The question was, whether his proposition was in itself just and reasonable.—(Hear, hear.) The people hi in I m io ak s e e.s s evere way ar ; u: never acqui esce d i n that corn - law; there was a Member present who cou ld reco ll ect, probably, how he had to hwtt wound eohr . 0 ) the t ha l t o u a swe was t being r o u g h m passed,ili t a r y police and from ua it was said that ono gent l eman d ated his conversion i h , e her r e ecewiveerde beads sle whichgu ardin c g ou th ld e only be penetrated by arguments strongly enforced.— (" Ob, oh!") The Hon. Gentleman wanted to make out that " the agricultural interest" was concerned in this que,tion, and he raid that the interest of the landlord t, g eu end that of th e t snant must now be considered as one. He and his friends pl a y e d f ast and loose about this; once " the agricultural i n t erest " was said to mean almost no body but tenant-farm ers —now it was e tl3 , ownersltu r o a f real property that were t o b e benefited. Perhaps a man would be claimed as belonging to h terest" nrxt if he lived in th e Haymarket or Lincoln's Inn-fields.—( 4 Oh, oh!") The result of the Hon. Mem ber's proposal was to be to transfer 2 ,000,0001. of taxa tion now collected from land and buildings to the general taxation of the country, much the largest portion of which came from the great body of the people, and was paid in taxes upon articles they consumed ; and so, if (as ho said) the 2,000,000/. formed a burden upon laud, the occupiers of the soil were to be able to add thus much to the rental of the proprietors.—("Oh, oh !") But was not the time gone by when Parliament would listen to proposals for removing taxes front property and placing them upon industry and consumption?— (Hear, hear.) Taxes had now been taken off which certainly in tunes of puree could never. again be imposed. Im posts upon imposts, and taxes upon consumption, hal been found to be nut only net the most productive, but to be destructive of the comforts of the people.—(Hear.) The question was not Letween the land anti she towns, for property in the latter would be at least equally re lieved by this scheme; but the question was between the great owners cf property mid those who bad been called the " Have-nothings," and who with this system of aegis. Ming would harts ~ o thing to the (nil of titne.—(Cries of " Oh, oh !") He would ask Hon. Members opposite, " In what way do you intend to satisfy the clamour you excited or participated in during the recess r— (Cheers and counter cheers.) Oh he (Mr. Bright) eat not " the farmer's friend "—(lronical cheers)—lie made no pretensions to the character, thouch in that t il i se o o ti u nd , House and out o f i t h e would stand up f.e, whatever was just to the fanner.—(Cries of Oh. oh!" fre ts t h e Pro ri o e x i , o t :ti ) ng ß ol lh o e ur wo i juildthne country otcome o to thate ground that t h e that ho was about to relieve the farming and occonying classes, and makes proposition which a child of five years old Almost could discover had no reference to the it t .rests of the occupier, but was solely directed to supporting the interests of the lendlord.—(Llear, hear.) The Righ t' : Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) stated 45 per coat. of the whole poor-rate was all that was pai4 lay the land, the whole of which was not paid by agri cultural laud ; so that all the relief the Honouta Geld, Oman's (Mr. Disraeli's) proposition could give would he 45 per cent. to landlords, tenants, and occu pier!. He hould like to have it defined how much of that would remain in the pockets of the occupying t•mants in the farming districts.—(Hear, hear.) But the Chancellor of the Exchequer must continue on the farmer the taxes on t-a, sugar, coffee. tobacco, spirits, and malt, if the series of propositions the Hon. Gentleman threatened Ceat with should be suceosslut, and the great burden of the rates were to be trens fsrred from real property to industry and articles of consumption. The farmers were h avieg their eyes uTeied by these discussions.—(llear.) A few days Iwo there had teen a proposition for a County•rates Bill, at it had met with no favour from H Gentlemen oppe site.—(" Oh, oh.") In a short time it would be his duty to ask the House for the abolition or modification of the law which encouraged the preservation of game.— (Ironical cheering.) It would then be seen if those who called themselves the farmers' friends would be ready to apply that great and just principle to a practical griev ance which pressed more heavily on the farmers than the poor-law union.—(" Oh, oh.") He should be delighted, too, if the farmers' friends gave a hearty support to the Tenants' Compensation Bill. If landlords were wise they would take another course. He was sorry, for more reasons than one, he was not a landed proprietor. It he was be would say to his landed brethren, that if trade was prosperous and manufactures increasing —if employment was more permanent and became at once steady and remunerative to the labourer—if the list of criminals was anntrillydecreasiag—if the return of the Poor-law Commissioners showed that thousands and thousands of mea, women, and children had been dragged out of the mire of pauperism, and placed in an independent and comfortable position, and if all those advantages could be presumed t 3 flow from the free trade policy, as he verily believed, then the position of a landed proprietor in England was the most fortunate and happiest in the country, for as trade extended so would competition increase for land, for agricultural, ma nufacturing, and building purposes, as well as for enjoy. meat and pleasure, and while the popel ttion improved, how great would bo his security fur the enjoyment of the possescions with which Providence had blessed him! —(Cries of " Oh, oh !") To come to the Reuse and make an appeal for compensation on account of the abolition of the correlsws was white they would not have does if they had known what was best for their interests. Oh, oh!") Other trades would now come and speak of depreciation of capital, which had never sought for compensation before. lion. Gentlemen opposite bad !tiled in that House in past times with undisputed sway. On their county hustings they had told the farmers that they went to Parliament to maintain agricultural proa• petity and remunerating prices of core. He begged of them, if they were sensible men, to got rid of all those delusions—(" Oh, oh!")—and not to let their children and great grandchildren read, as read they would, with astonishment the speeches they had made.—(Loud cheers and cries of " Oh, oh.") He was convinced the proposition before them had not in the slightest degree any element of benefit, improvement, or even of restitu tion to the tenant-farmer, and he would not be a party to a transfer of the taxation on a class not so heavily taxed as in other countries, or to a course which would reverse the policy they had been pursuing for the last seven years, with consequences, as he believed, most ad vantageous to our population and tending to increase the value of every institution in the kingdom.—(Hear.) Mr. 11. DRUMMOND said it would require greater powers of mystification than those of the Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Bright), or even the Honourable Gentleman who had introduced the debate, to persuade the farmers they were not suffering distress. The Honourable Gentleman was greatly mistaken if he supposed ho (Mr. Drummond) had ever, directly or indirectly, encouraged the farmers to hope for a reversal of the past policy of the House. Many years since he had declared, the moment peace was established it would be impossible to keep up prices at a higher average than prices on the continent. But, though the farmers felt themselves deeply aggrieved, he had never used his little influence to excite them. They felt they had been be trayed by the men in whom they trusted, and they had felt deeply the injustice of being made the means of ele vating a faction into power, who then kicked down the useless marchepied. They called conduct of that sort treachery—(Hear, hoar)—and be heard their language with regret ; and while many of those to whom it was applied were his friends, he could not but be sorry to see a body of able men condemned, however justly, to political infamy.—(Hear, hear.) By their acts those who had heavy fines for church lands, within two years of that change, had been distinctly de frauded.—(Cheers.) This was not the first time large bodies of the people had come to the doors of the House as suppliants proclaiming their distress, but it certainly was the first time, to his knowledge, that they had been treated with indifference—(Cheers)—and their statements of distress distinctly contradicted, as if they were not the only judges of the fact.—(Cheers.) He could not help contrasting the way in which the manu facturing and trading interests were treated when they were whining suppliants.—(Loud cheers.) Had they been sneered at or mocked? Had they been laughed at for not understanding chymistry?—(Cheers.) The counsel of the Hon. Member for the West Riding amounted to this—that the present race of farmers should try agricultural experiments, that they should pass into the workhouse, and then let a happier and more enlightened lot of men succeed them.—(Laughter.) But was it not notorious that not a single English manufacturer had ever made a single useful discovery in the arts?—(Cheers and laughter.) They bad, to be sure the Manchester shool, with its peculiar doctrines. Did any one ever hear of a Lavoisier or a Fourcroy in Manchester?—(Laughter.) Could they quote the name of one manufacturer who had written on the scientific principles of his business?—(Hear.) No; it was notori ous to this day these Manchester manufacturers knew no more of the chemical nature of their dyes ted. and pigments than the blocks on which_ thadey —(Loud cheers and l a ughter.) taken pit y on their dense stupidity of their they confessed that nothing but an the cheapness d vulgarity when Hno w t ere the p House wares enabled them to find a market , for that there was Europe who would prefer the better d more beautiful manufacture of France, or even not a man in not taste an House established a school of design--(Hear. of the Chinese 2 —(Cheers and laughter.) In mercy to them t he hear) —but so little had they been able to profit by it that the last report stated they drew as bad as ever.-- (Laughter.) What he always said was, that free trade involved, not merely a class question but a national question, and that the real matter at issue was not how to have corn cheap, but how to preserve equality of prices during years to come.—(Hear, hear.) Now, it would be found, on reference to the House of Lords' report, that in Dantzic, the port through which a greater amount of corn passed than any other, there had been the greatest amount of fluctuation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had given a moat satisfactory account of trade and manufacture, but he had not stated how much we had paid for it.--(Hear, hear.) It was forgotten that by their system the kelp had been destroyed, and that they had created the distress in the north-west of Scot land, and had aggravated it in the north-west of Ireland; that they had destroyed half the value of the timber of England, half the value of bark, and that now they bee destroyed one-half of the capital of all the tenant farmers in the country, for they had reduced wheat from 80s. to 40s. a quarter. The necessary consequence was that every tenant who had been farming with borrowed 1 capital mutt fail, and every landed estate that was mortgaged must be sold.—(Heate hear.) T h i s was th e end at which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had been driving, and why, when they had accomplished their object, did they not admit it? He would venture to say th a t th e amount of property that had beet) destroyed by th e i r policy was at least equal to that which they said it h a d increased. He contended that the system supported by Li on . G en tl emen , opposite had boa a optima pf clue able Member for East Lothian (Mr. Charteris) to be singularly illogical. He went along with these gentlemen when they asserted the inequality of the local taxation of the country, and also who , ' they mails taMed that land and real property were burdened to a greater extent than any other species of property ; but he denied that a re-establishment of the mush-befludeil Act, the 43d of Elizebeth, would remedy the evil--the inequalities which existed under that Act being almost as great as those which existed at present.—(Hear, hear.) Neither could he imagine that the proposition of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire was at all calculated to mend the matter.—(Hear, hear.) That Hon. Member proposed that from 12,000,0004 of local taxation they should deduct 2,000,0001., and leave the other 10,000,0001. to be assessed in the same unequal manner as at present. He (Mr. flobhouse) confessed he could not see much relief in that. Ho feared, in deed, that it was impossible from the nature of things to assess property with perfect equality under any sys tem whatever, and that it was necessary to overlook some inconsistencies for the sake of the general good. The Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Tyrell) had attributed the reduction in the poor-law expenditure to the diminution which had occurred in the cost of provisions; but, if the [lon. Baronet would take the trouble to consult the last report of the Poor-law Board, be would find that there was also a considerable diminution of the number of paupers.—(Hear, - hear.) The Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire had claimed a certain amount of exemption for the agriculturists, on the ground of the peculiar taxation to which they were ex posed. The fact was, however, that upon this very plea they had been relieved from 6,000,0001. of taxation since 1815.—(near, hear.) The Hon. Member had also said that the existing distress among the agrioulturel classes had been strangely coincident with the recent chanzes in our commercial legislation. He (Hr. Hobhouse) did not deny that it had been so; but he asked the agricul turists, in a spirit of perfect fairness, whether an equal amount of distress had not often occurred during the period of proteetion?—(llear, hear.) Believing that tyre proposal r f the Hon. Gentleman would tend to the ad vantage of the landlord alone, and not to that of the te nant or labourer, and being confident that it would re more none of the inequalities complaine I of, he should, as the representative of the caeital of an important seri cultaral district, vote against it without the slightest dis trust or hesitation.—(llear.) Lord J. MANNERS said, that because the Hon. Gentleman did not conceive this measure calculated to remove a'l the disarms complained of, that was no re:- son why he should not assent to it as calculated to re move a portion of that diette ma. Until he heard ile erech of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite he had imagined that no man who admitted the distress of the agricultural interest—and who eat there in the House that did not admit it?—would refuse to adopt the rea soneble and practicahle proposition of his Hon. Friend, exempt as that proposition was from any tendency to inflict injustice upon any class.—(Bear, heir.) The Right Hon. Gentleman indeed eon:tied disposed to gloss over the existence of that distress by certain assuner tions as to the diminution of pauperism and of crime; but the test he suggested seemed of a rather fallacious character. The Right Hon. Gentleman, for exam's' , , contrasted the state of crime in 1813, the exceptional year of manufacturing digress, with the state of crime in 1849, a year—he feared not the exceptional year—of agricultural distress. Now, the logical inference to be drawn, if any were to be drawn at all from this compari son, tens, that, the rgricultural community under enffer ing and privation was less turbulent and less disposed to crime than the manufacturing population.—(Hear.) The Right lion. Baronet further argued that pau perism haddicuieished, yet the last returns presentei to the Reuse showed the Poor-law Commissioners painting in very gloomy colours the prefeet condition and future condition of the agricultural labourers. The Right Hon. Barorce, seemed to say thet in the northern counties of Enght id agricultural distress was compara tive unknown; now he imaeined that Durham was an agricultural county. [Sir G. GREY—No; it is a mining county.] And in that county ho found a marked ie. crease of pauperism.—(Elear, hear.) The Right 11on. Baronet seemed much ditTo.ed to turn the attention of the House to some other point, but the practical manner in which the House should legislate on this subject was to keee to one thing at a time, and he had heard no one argument on this occasion wily the one thing proposed by his Hon. Friend should not be kept to until it was effected. It had been urged as an objection that in 1813 the poor-rate was higher than in 1849; but it had been precisely one of the arguments against that system in force in 1813, that wages were constantly paid out of the allowance fund. It was always put forward that the Manchester gentlemen desired no immunity for any class; he called upon the Manchester gentlemen, then, to support this motion, which went to remedy great national distress without in flicting any injustice upon any particular class of the community, fir he couridered it no injustice that fund holders, mortgagees, annuitants, and others who had been hitherto exempt from this most legitimate liability should be brought within the scope of so essentially na tional a taxation.—(Heir, hear.) If the man u f acturers were sincere in their professions, if they really desired no immunity for any ease, they must of necessity vote with his Hon. Friend. All that was proposed was to carry out the principle laid down in 1845 by the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, that property, of whatever description, personal alike with real, ought to bear Ls fair proportion of local taxation, so that the burden might bejustly distributed.—(Hear, hear.) They were seeking to carry out this principle in no spirit of injus tice to any particular class, iu no spirit of hostility to the Government, but in a spirit which should command for the resolution of his Hon. Friend the sympathy and approbation of all candid and imFartial 'Hon.—(f.lo3r, hear.) It was not meant for a moment that the reso lution was proposed as representing the full debt of justice due to the agricultural interest.—(Hear, hear.) All that was contemplated by it was, the mitigation of the great and grievous injustice which now op pressed that interest with most unequal burdens.— (Hear, hear.) As an example of this, he would men tion that in a manufacturing township near Leicester, composed of 978 inhabitants, of whom not above 100 were engaged in agriculture, there was a farm of 241 acres, which contributed to the poor-rates of the parish, in six years, no less a sum than 6151. 145., or more than 100 per annum, being at the rate of Bs. Gd. per annum per acre, the rate being applied to the relief, not of the 100 agriculturists, but to the relief of the whole population. Casting himself across the Channel, he saw the agricultural interest in a most oppressed condition owing, in a very great measure, to unequal burdens. Now, his Hon. Friend's proposition would relieve agri culture in Ireland to the enormous extent of 500,0001, per annum. Year after year the English Members of that House had been called upon for large payments to enable the Irish poor-law to work; and year after year the same demand would be renewed unless the views of his Honourable Friend were adopted. Most heartily therefore, as an English Member, did he support these views, because he conssidered them calculated to re !Love agricultural burdens, and to extend agricultural employment.—(Hear, hear.) A good deal had been said about the casual poor, or what we commonly call in England" vagrants.' He particularly desired to know how much longer these vagrants, making their way about the country, were to be saddled on the funds of the parish in which the relieving officer happened to reside instead of upon the funds of the union. —(Hear.) Cap tain Robertson, in his most able report, insisted upon the absolute necessity of action upon this subject. The Noble Lord said, in conclusion, he supported, and with out any misgivings of the future result, the course taken by his Hon. Friend, because it was the course of honour and of justice, because ho believed it to be practicable, and because ho was convinced that, by one common justice, it would redress the common injustice which had been inflicted on the agriculture of the United King dom.—(Einar.) Mr. BRIGHT said, that certainly the speech of the Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire was of a somewhat more practical character than usual, with less tendency to mystify the House and the country; but still he could not refrain from expressing his strong belief that both the House and the country would soon dis cover that the grounds on which the Honourable Gentle man based his proposition were altogether untenable. The Honourable Gentleman's speech was based chiefly on the fact which many gentlemen seemed disposed to admit, without question, that there prevailed through out the country a very alarming amount of agricultural distress, and that in some way or other this proposition was intended as a compensation for the loss of the corn law; and that, while giving great advantage to the class which the Honourable Gentleman peculiarly advocated, it would not operate unjustly upon the other classes of the community. He (Mr. Bright) was not disposed to admit without question that there existed this great agricultural distress that had been talked of. He him self knew, and he was sure there was scarcely a gentle man in the House who did not know, that there were cases of tenant-farmers who during this very year were carrying on their agricultural operations, not only not with a loss, but absolutely with a profit.—(Laughter, and cries of " No, no!" from the Protectionists.) The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), who had not stated one well-authenticated case in which the fee of land bad been depre ciated in value, or the rent permanently lowered, said that the farmers, with 300,000,0001. engaged in the cul tivation of the soil, were cultivating it without profit, and that the fee of the land had lessened in value. Ho (Mr. Bright) was disposed for the most part to dispute it; but, admitting it, for the sake of argument, bad the Hon. Member never cast his eye over the condition of other kinds of property during the last four years—the condition of the mining districts, the iron manufacturing interest, the condition of the owners of mills in all our great staple manufactures? Had he inquired whether the selling price of houses in towns was as high now, or had been for the last three years, as it was previously? Had he nev e r cas t hi s eye over t h e s h sre li s t? and, with regard to th e ra il wa y i n t eres t, l e t him remember that the poor -rates of the 3,000 parishes in England theth rou h which railways passed were but 800,0001., and rail ways paid 250,000/. of it.—(Hear, bear.) The llcn. Gentleman said he hed not asked for more recent poor law returns because of the trouble it would give to pre parerr i r e e n t d u s rn w s e o r e likely ever at any future f t them; but neither he nor any to m of ov h e is to f poor-rate with the view of proving the distress of the Puntry, and thereupon ba - ing any application to the House tor a return to the protective system, or rt transfer of rates from what he called real property to the ordinary taxation of the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) The last speaker, indeed, doubted whether the Home Secretary was right as to pauperism and crime, and whether the price of food had so much influence in the matter; but he would find that the commitments in England rose from 20,600 in 1836, when prices were low, to 32,000 in 1842, which was the termination f some years of high prices, and after that (with falling prices of food) declined again till the fall was checked in 1847, when the price of food was such as " to remunerate the farmers and landed proprietors."—(" Oh!") In the face of the facts brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir, J. Graham) when, ia office,