The Sun. — London, England, 1850-04-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, April 12. Lord CAMPBELL (in the absence of the Lord Chan cellor) took his seat upon the Woolsack at Five o'clock. LAW OF PLEADING. Lord CA MPBELL brought in a Bill to amend the law of pleading. In introducing the measure the Noble and Learned Lord went into a minute technical expla nation of the practice of special pleading. The Bill was then read a first time. PETITIONS. 1 . . The Earl of ZETLAND presented several petitions against Post-office labour on Sunday. CONVICT PRISONS BILL. Earl GREY moved the third reading of this Bill. Lord LYTTELTON thought that in several important respects the present measure was a great improvement. He regarded the separate imprisonment and the penal labour on public works, which by this Bill were to precede transportation, as of the greatest possible benefit. There were some persons, at the head of whom was Arch bishop Whately, who considered it chimerical to attempt to reform criminals, and declared that the great object of punishment should be to deter others from the com mission of crime. On the other hand, Captain Mac conochie and his followers thought that all efforts should be directed to the reformation of criminals, and that very little attention should be paid to those who urged that punishment should,be inflicted to deter others from crime. U'he present measure attempted to combine the two, but he objected to the sending out criminals with tickets of leave, as being a revival of the old assignment system, and he doubted whether it would be attended with suc cess. He gave great credit to his Noble Friend for having abstained from attempting to press on the co lony of New South Wales the reception of convicts. The case of the Cape of Good Hope showed how futile inch an attempt must be, yet he must say that he thought the people of New South Wales were blind to their own interests, and failed in their duty to the em pire,wh en they refused to receive convicts.—(Hear,'hear.) He, however, recommended that the same course of proceeding should be adopted with regard to that colony which had been adopted with regard to the Cape, and that the order in Council should be withdrawn. He thought, however, that much of the objection on the part of the Australian colonists was to be attributed to the neglect of the Government authorities to form proper regulations, and this was more particularly the case at Port Philip. He thought it was impossible to read the papers laid on the table without being convinced of the precariousness of the continuance of the system of transportation to Van Diemen's Land. Free settlers had been encouraged to settle there, and the feeling of the co lony was against the reception of convicts there. He well remembered the state of confusion in which the question of transportation was left when himself and his colleagues left office, but he thought the confusion had been increased by the conduct of the present Govern ment. The colonists of Van Diemen's Land considered that they had received a pledge that in 1846 trans portation should cease, and they now threw that pledge in the teeth of the Government, which attempted to introduce convicts into Van Diemen's Land after a probation at Norfolk Island, which could only be considered as a large gaol, and he believed on the whole a well-regulated and a safe gaol. It appears that persons going out there with a condi tional pardon, which they were to receive after serving in the penal works, wore to be freed from all restraint, and to be treated altogether as free persons, except that they were not to bo permitted to return to this country. It way not surprising that the colonists objected to the reception of these persons. A pledge had been given that for every batch of convicts sent out an equal number of free settlers shoul I be sent out to Van Diemen's Land by the Government. He feared this would tend to deteriorate the character of the free settlers. Who would like to be sent out as a sort of maltewe'ght to a convict ? With regard to the consent of Western Australia to receive convicts, it was not sur prising that the perishing colony should catch at any straw to save themselves from impending ruin for want of labour; but the Governor of the colony had distinctly stated that if any oner method could be devised for ob taining the requisite supply of labour, the colonists of Western Australia would be among the first to refuse to receive convicts. Lord WODEHOUSE expressed his general approval of the Government plan, and especially of the plan of separate confinement, which he thought would prove a very severe punishment to the usual class of prisoners, by debarring them from intercourse with their compa nions in crime, and preventing them from talking over their past depredations and planning fresh ones. With regard to that part of the scheme which related to the employment of convicts on public works, he thought with due care and supervision it would be found successful, although there were considerable difficulties to contend with. The remaining part of the scheme he thought open to more doubt. He was aware how impracticable it was to devise any satisfactory scheme of secondary punishment, without having recourse to transportation. There was, besides, this double advantage connected with transportation, that it finally got rid of a large number of criminals who would otherwise be periodically returned into the population of the country, and also afforded the colonies the benefit of a large supply of cheap labour. Ile thought, however, that the evils which were entailed on the colony by such a constant accession of crime counterbalanced the advantages which they received, and that, under those circumstances the reception of convicts ought not to be forced on any colony against its will, and he decidedly disapproved of any attempt to do so. The Earl of CHICHESTER expressed his concur rence with the view if the last speaker. He objected also to the principle of colonies being chosen for the re ception of transported convicts, as it could not but be productive of the utmost danger to ourselves and other countries to endeavour to build up nation of such mate rials. He never expected that transportation, under certain limitations, should be given up for secondary punishments. He considered the measure before the House was one in the right direction, but still it should be followed ty others more general and stringent. The Secretary- of State should be bound to report annually to Parliament as to the distribution of convicts, and there ought also to be an annual inspection of those convicts. An annual report of the manner in which the Govern ment exercised their powers in this respect would be at tended with great advantage, and would impart confi • deuce to the duo administration of criminal justice. Ho utterly disclaimed any hostility to the measure; but still he maintained that the system, in order to be thoroughly efficacious, should be more extensive. He was formerly opposed to the employment of convicts on public works before transportation, because he thought their asso ciation immediately after solitary confinement consider ably weakened its moral benefit ; bat he had altered his opinion, on the favourable reports of inspectors, and on information derived from other sources. Ho anxiously hoped that the Government, having adopted this system, would carry it out in a liberal spirit as to the manner of its extension, so that in a short time they would find all the hulks abolished, and every con vict prisoner secured the benefit of moral and religious attendance. Lord STANLEY admitted that in the earlier stages of punishment intended for convicts there was a greater facility for supervision and control in the mother country than, in the colonies. For that reason he approved, to a certain extent, of the proposed measure. He admitted the advisability of greater superintendence, while at the same time, it was his impression that the system of punishment introduced and recommended by the First Lord of the Treasury had not been fairly tried. From the last reports of the inspectors of Portland prison, he found that the experiment appeared to work satisfacto rily. With a great proportion of convicts the very name of transportation carried terror, and had the effect of deterring from crime. Another reason why he re joiced that transportation was still to be continued was that it would remove convicts from the scene of their former transgressions and from contact with their old associates, so that a fair chance might be afforded them of becoming thoroughly reformed. If not removed to a distant country they would always be sub ject to old temptations, and, in all probability, brought back to crime either by the threats or promises of vicious companions. For these reasons it was of the utmost im portance that male convicts should be finally removed to a penal colony, after undergoing the preliminary stages of punishment in this country. That being his opinion, be conceived that if transportation were to be continued, a vast deal more would have to be done, and they should not diminish the ultimate urgency of the punishment. The old principle of assignment, he considered, had been too hastily abandoned; and in announcing that the sys tem of transportation to New South Wales would cease within a certain brief period after the announcement, he considered the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies bad ac t e d with Over-haste, and had caused an un due pressure on a single colony, Van Diemen's Land, by selecting it as the single receptacle for convicts, especially as the House of Com mons had, almost concurrently, by special resolution, put a stop to i m prisonment or transportati on i n h ulks. At that period steps were taken for th e pur pose of diminishing the inconvenience by authorising the Governor of Van Diemen's Land to establi s h set tlements, with the view of enabling ticket-of-leave m en to become settlers, and obtain their own livelihood. Ac cording to the plan of the Noble Lord at the head of the colonial department, there would be a greater number of convicts, after undergoing the preliminary stages of punishment, sent to Van Diemen's Land than under the old system, and he thought that great encouragement was given that colony by what had occurred at the Cape of Good Hope to revolt against the introduction of so considerable a number of convicts. What security was there that Van Diemen's Land would not resist, or that all the moral inconveniences of such a deportation would not be renewed? Government should look beyond five or ten years, as to the result of overcrowding Van Die men's Land with convicts. The proposition of accom panying them with a certain amount of free labour, would increase that of which there was already a super abundance.—(llear, hear.) He had thought it right to make those observations, not with a view to throw any impediment in the way of the experiment Govern ment was making, as he thought in what they were doing they were actuated by the best intentions; but be had thought it requisite not to allow the third reading of the Bill to pass without reminding the Government j which must urse, that in t that they must look forward to what would i nev i tably happea from the adoption of the presentlii they were only staving off the evil day w few years come upon them, when they would have to meet the evil even in a worse form than that in which it at present existed. Lord MONTEAGLE said he had for a long time mi nutely considered the subject of transportation, and all the information he could collect on the subject, from personal observation and otherwise, convinced him that it was a punishment much dreaded, and therefore a most s alutary one. In Ireland he knew that it was even more dreaded than the punishment of death itself. With res pect to the general question, he did not think that it had been fairly deal; with, fcv ny Que cold WI that the penal colonies received the greatest benefit from the system of sending convicts to them from this country. In proof of that, he need appeal to no other or no more satisfactory evidence than that of Sir Richard Burke, the late Governor of New South Wales, who said that he was induced to set a high value on the employment of convict labour in the formation of a new colony, inasmuch as in New South Wales, by the aid of convict labour, the industrious inhabitants had been enabled, within a period of fifty years, to convert a wilderness into a flourishing colony. And in regard to the moral conduct of those convicts, he gave it as his opinion that not only had transportation contributed to the good of the colony, but had led to the moral improvement of the convicts themselves in as great a degree, as far as his observation had gone, as could have been effected in any penitentiary in England or in Ireland. After what had been said as to the abandonment of transportation by the Government, he did not wonder that the inhabitants of some of the colonies now stood out in condemnation - of the system; and he could not but state that, unless they placed the system on a new footing, it would be impossible to carry it on. It was said there was no re luctance in the inhabitants of Western Australia to re ceive convicts, but that was doubtful. But supposing there was no doubt about the matter, the colony could not recive all the convicts which would be sent from this country. But then they were told that Van Diemen's Land would receive a large portion of them, although he did not believe that with the facts they had before them with respect to the feeling of that colony, that the inhabitants would submit to have it made the receptacle of the whole convict population of this country. They had the example of the Cape as an evidence of what a determined resist ance to the law could effect, and of that they would be most apt to take advantage. Ho regretted that the opi nions of the inhabitants of the Cape had been yielded to, as he believed it would be attended with most fatal re sults to the Government. If, however, they were deter mined on curtailing the number of convicts sent abroad, they were bound to employ them in a proper manner in this country, and to give them sufficient accommodation. Now, what was the case in this respect so far as Ire land was eoncerned ? In the gaol of his own county, there were, during last year, while cholera was making its ravages over the land, from 100 to 200 prisoners dis tributed over 15 cells. In the Cork gaol, which contained accommodation for 500, there were 1,549 prisoners con fined at one time ; in Galway gaol, which contained ac commodation for 112, there was confined at one time 1,075 ; and in the course of last year the mortality in that gaol was 450. That was a gate of things which ought not to exist; and while the Noble Lord (Stanley) had said that to employ those convicts on public works in this country would not suffice, as those works would have an end, but in these colonies there was an inexhaustible field in which to employ the labour of their convicts, and he was, therefore, against any diminution in the transportation of convicts to them, conceiving the system to be for the benefit of those colonies, as well as that of the convicts themselves. Earl GREY said, as regarded the Irish prisons, he wished to state, that while he did not deny that there was in some of these a deficiency of accommodation, iu consequence of the great increase of convicts during the past two years in that country; yet, in each year since the present administration came into office, there had been a larger number of convicts sent out of the country than there had been during many years preceding. At the same time the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had done all that lay in his power to increase the means of disposing of those convicts. An establishment had been formed on Spike Island, where from twelve to fourteen hundred convicts were stationed, while there was also a p. , nitentiary established oh the model of Pentonviile put into operation. In fact, more could not have been done than had been done to meet the large increase of the convicts which had taken place lin that country. As to the general question, he had listened to the debate which had taken place upon it with much satisfection, as, considering the opposite opinions held by those who bad taken part in it, he was led to regard what had been stated as favourable to the system which Government had adopted. Two Noble Lord., who had taken part in the debate, had objected to transportation altogether, while the Noble Lord who had last spoken was for carrying it out to the fullest extent. He was not prepared to deny but that some evils had arisen by sending convicts in large numbers to the penal colonies, but still those evils had Lent greatly exaggerated, and if they compared them with those which would have existed under a different mode of secondary punishment, he did not doubt but that the balance would have been in favour of trans portation. He had the example of other countries, France, for instance, as to the evils which were likely to arise from keeping a large number of convicts in this country; and when he stated that there were at the pre sent time 48,000 individuals in the Australian colonies, of which the great majority were honestly earning their livelihood, who had been sent out there as convicts, but who, had they remained in this country, would he be lievej, almost in spite of themselves, have been compelled to live as:criminals. No better argument could be advanced in favour of sending convicts to such places. The fact was, that South Australia never could have risen as it had done had it not been for the convicts sent to it. Triin,portation, then, ought not to be abandoned, but he believed that the most penal part of the sentence of trans portation ought to be inflicted at home. It was admitted on all hands, that there were means for carrying out that portion cf the sentence at home which there was not in the colonies. It was true some Noble Lords had con tended that the works at home on which convicts were employed would cease in the course of a few years, one Noble Lord having urged, that as the Portland works would soon terminate, some other mode of employment for the convict:: there engaged ought to be sought after, but the great bulk of the buildings of Portland being ail wood, could be removed, if necessary, while the quarries at Portland being almost inexhaustible, and composed of an excellent quality of stone, which one of the cathedrals of that city could exhibit, the convicts c3uld be employed there in raising those stones, which were in great repute for buildings throughout the king dom. The Noble Lord who last addressed the House had recommended the employment of those convicts on large works in the colonies; but after the frightful scenes which had taken place in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, from the employment of convicts in gangs on public roads or other public works, he would decidedly deprecate having recourse again to any such expedient. The system had led to scenes of demoralisation the most abandoned, and he believed that unless on a small scale , and in limited numbers, they could not be so employed, if sent out there at once. Much might be done afterwards when they had passed through the ordeal of home training, and when they could be sent out on tickets of leave to live in particular districts of the colony, and be employed in the formation of roads and other improvements, then much good might be effected by them, and Government was at present considering a plan how they could be best lo cated to effect that object. There were no doubt great difficulties in the way, but he had no hesitation in saying that those difficulties would soon be diminished, as he was certain that in a few years there would be a larger field for the disposal of their convicts in the colonies than there was at present. The Noble Lord alluded also in favourable terms to the plan of having a separate colony in North Australia, consisting entirely of convicts. Now he (Earl Grey) dissented entirely from that, because it would be a colonisation exclusively of convicts; whereas the safety of a colony depended on mixing those per sons, after some time, with free settlers. The object of that was, that it should be a colony of convicts removed from Van Diemen's Land and settled in North Aus tralia. Lord STANLEY observed that they were to hold tickets of leave. Earl GREY believed th a t th a t c i rcumstance ma d e no difference whatever, fur they should start with con victs only; there were to be n o f ree sett l ers, no capi talists to give them employment; they were to be main tained at the first onset at the expe nse o f t h e B r i t i s h Treasury; and i f it were necessary to have recourse to such expenditure, why remove them at all? He had no objection to leave them to find th e i r own way from Van Diemen's Land with tickets of leave, and obtain em ployment in the adjacent colonies, but he did o bj ect to any system which set out by planting any colony exclu sively with such persons. It had beau said th at t h ey could not dispose of th eir convict population under the arrangements now in course of progress; but the mis chief formerly was, that they sent out those persons too rapidly, and did not take proper measures to prevent those frightful evils which afterwards followed. In the first place, by the old sy stem, the territorial reve nue of the colony was taken away , leaving no means of employing convicts on useful or profitable public works. These regulations were now altered. N o charge was, in the first place, made for convi ct labour 'employment on useful works beyond the charge of their mere superintendence; the consequence of which was, that Sir W. Denison was at that moment constructing bridges, making public roads, and other public improvements in Van Diemen's Land, and a fund kept up at the same time to defray the expenses which fell on them. He (Earl Grey) for one, regarded all the sums of money received for the sale of land, not as revenue for the ordinary expenses of a colony, but money which ought to be expended in public improve ments, and that land ought not to be given as a free gift, but exposed for sale, lest it should fall into the hands of men who would not turn it to the best account. If land were given for nothing it would no doubt fall into the hands of those who could not use it properly.— (Rear. hear.) At the conclusion of tho late war, grants of land were given in New South Wales to settlers, on condition of . their taking and employing a certain num ber of conv icts. That system was carried out under Lord Bathurst with the mos t comp l e t e success , an d t h e regulations now about to be proposed would be, as far as circumstances permitted, of a similar character. Th en , w i t h regard to Western Australia, it was no doubt a small colony, but one possessed of great natural advantages, haying abundance of timber, cotton, cattle, and a great variety of food, and when con vict labour was employed on roa d s , i n the erection of bridges, and other public improvements, h e fi rm l y be lieved Western Austral ia would afford a gradually oin creasing field to convicts. H o (E ar l G rey) was averse to large ym establishments ih gt beconducted o ndi fpi.eentae d withadvantage, n penal convicts; he e d, limitedh ever' scale, e hav in g pub lic works c arr i e d on with the aid of convicts with ticket s of l eave . Di spatches had been laid on their Lordships' table, th a t even i ng, from Van Diemen's la nd, showing that the colony was rising rapidly—that industry was . find i ng employ ment in every department—that ship building was being car ried. on to a large extent —and also a trade of great im portance in the export of timber—steam ers L were con stantly running from Van Diemen's and to the ad joining colonies, in which men who obta in e d a con ditional pardon could go in search of employment, and . that also was an i n d ucemen t for men who possessed tickets of le ave t o o b ta i n t i c k e t s of pardon. With regard to the resi stance wh i ch may b e expec ted in Van Die -14001 Land, he ,(Earl Grey) regretted extremely that his Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) said so much as an encouragement to such an opposition. Ile, however, did not anticipate any such thing; this objection to the re ception of convicts was now much less than in 1846, and it was a most unfounded assertion to make, that the Go vernment was in fault, in exciting that opposition by the language which had been used. He himself believed that the feeling among the colonists against the reception of convicts arose from the system of road gangs which pre vailed, for before its introduction the feelings of the peo ple of Van Diemen's Land was in favour of their being sent among them. Lord STANLEY said that transportation to New South Wales was put an end to before the system of road gangs was introduced. Earl GREY continued to observe that the plan of having road gangs was no new thing, and it was from the abuse of the system they felt they were justified in opposing the reception of convicts altogether. He was, however, bound to say, that Parliament would not be justified to yield in such a matter hastily to the people of Van Diemen's Land, on such a subject. It was not with them as with the people of the Cape, which was at all times a free colony, and into which, without the con sent of the inhabitants, it would be unjust to send a con vict population. It was, however, otherwise with Van Diemen's Land ; many millions of money were ex pended in making it fit fir convicts, and the free settlers had no right to complain now of its existence among them. He, for one, believed the authority of the Crown and of Parliament ought not to be set aside by those to whom free institutions were given ; and although, cer tainly, it was the duty of the Government at home not to send out any which might be injurious, they had a right to expect, and to insist on, sending convicts there and not to be driven to seek in another part of the world, at a vast expense, another penal colony. The Bill was then read a third time and passed. CASE OF MR. C. NASH. Earl GRANVILLE, who spoke in so low a tone as to be utterly inaudible, after having exonerated Mr. C. Nash from any intention of committing a fraud upon the House by the course he pursued on a late occasion, moved that he be called to the bar and reprimanded. Mr. C. Nash then appeared, and after stating various additional reasons in exculpation of his conduct, and as a justification of the course he pursued, Lord CAMPBELL, being seated on the Woolsack and covered, said--Charles De Lacy Nash, the miscon duct by which you have incurred the displeasure of the House is that of having made a return which you were not required to make, and of having made it without the authority of the railway company to which you professed to be secretary. The House has hopes that you were not actuated in this matter by any fraudulent or malicious motives; but at the same time the House has had reason to be greatly dissatisfied with your conduct, it being cal culAted to mislead the House, and to do injury to the company of which you are considered to have been an officer. The House has resolved that you be repri manded, and you are reprimanded accordingly, and dis charged. Their Lordships then adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, April 12. The SPEAKER took the Chair at gour o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following Bills were read a second time and passed :—Dublin and Belfast Junction Railway; London derry and Enniskillen Railway. The Colonization Assurance Company Bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to. The Croydon and Reigate Turnpike Road Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 13, 1850,1 PETITIONS. Mr. HUTT presentei a petition, praying for an in quiry into the loss sustained by parties in consequence of the Danish blockade. Mr. FOX MAULE presented some petitions from places in Scotland against Sunday labour in the Post office; also a petition from Edinburgh against the Mar riage Bill. Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition from the Ge neral Assembly of the Church of Scotland against the Marriage Bill. Mr. BECKETT presented two petitions from Leeds against Sunday labour in the Post-office. Mr. COMPTON presented a petition from Titchfield against the duty on hops. Mr. W. PATTEN presented several petitions from various places in Lancashire against the Marriage Bill; a petition from Colne in favour of the extension of the jurisdiction' of county courts ; a petition from Chorley against the Highway Bill; and a petition from Whitehaven in favour of the extension of the County Courts Act. Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from Mid dlesborough against the duty en malt. Colonel DUNNE resent di petition from Queen's County against the advertisement duty. Mr. FLOYER presented a petition from a place in Dorset against Sunday labour in the Post-office; also two petitions from Halifax in favour of the County Courts Extension Bill. Mr. AGLIONBY presented a potition from Hertford in favour of the Enfranchisement of Copyholds Bill; also several petitions from places in Northumberland in favour of international arbitration. Colonel SIBTHORP presented a petition from Lin coln against Sunday labour in the Post-office. Mr. E. LOCKHART presented a petition from the proprietor, editor, and printers of the Border Advertiser newspaper, Galashields, North Britain, in favour of a repeal of the tax now levied. upon newspaper advertise ments. Mr. SADLIER presented a petition from the pro prietors, printers, and publishers of the Carlow Sentinel newspaper to th• same effect. Mr. GREN FELL presented a petition from the pro prietors, printer, and publisher of the Preston Chronicle newspaper to the same effect. Mr. W. EVANS presented petitions from places in Derbyshire in favour of the County Courts Extension Bill, against the Highway Bill, in favour of the Bill for secular education, and against Sunday labour in the Post-otlice. Sir C. BRUCE presented several petitions from places in Elgin against Sunday labour in the Post-office; also a petition from the same county in favcur of protection to agriculture. Mr. PETO presented a petition from Greenwich against church-rates, and a petition from Norwich in favour of the Bill for secular education. Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from a place in Ireland against the Bill introduced by the Gc vernment with respect to tenant right. Mr. GOULBURN presented a petition from Bexley against Sunday labour in the Post•office. Lord DRUMLANRIG presented a petition from Dumfries against Sunday labour in the Post-office, and a petition from Langholm against the Marriage Bill. Sir J. TROLLOI V E presented a petition from Boston against the Highway Bill, and a petition from the same place in favour of the Bill for the rating of small tene- ments. Mr. WAWN presented a petition from South Shields against the Mercantile Marine Bill. Lord DUNCAN presented a petition from Ashton under-Lyne, and other places in Lancashire, praying for a repeal of the window-tax. Mr. COBDEN presented nine petitions from places in Wiltshire in favour of a Ten Hours' Factory Bill; also a petition from the same county against church-rates. Lord H. VANE presented a petition from Stockton upon-Tees against church-rates, and it petition from Derby in favour of county financial boards. Mr. BANKES presented a petition from a place in Dorsetshire against; church-rates, and seven petitions from Colne, and other places in Lancashire, in favour of a Ten Hours' Factory Bill. Mr. COWAN presented several petitions from places in the county of Edinburgh against Sunday labour in the Post-office, and against the Marriage Bill. Lieutenant-Colonel BOYLE presented a petition from Frome against the punishment of death; also a petition from Lord Abergavenny against the Copyhold Enfran chisement Bill. Mr. 0. DUNCOMBE presented several petitions from places in the West Riding of Yorkshire complain ing of agricultural distress. Mr. EWART presented a petition from Dumfries against the Marriage Bill. Mr. A. STAFFORD presented a petition to the same effect. Mr. HUME presented a petition from Arbroath praying for the repeal of the taxes on knowledge. NOTICES OF MOTION. Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice that on Monday he should move that the return ordered in the early part of the session relative to the expenditure on Royal Pa lates be forthwith laid on the table. Mr. CHARLES LUSHINGTON gave notice that on Monday he should move for copies of all correspondence which has passed between the Dean and Chapter of Rochester and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners since the 29th of January on the subject of the allowance made to the scholars of Rochester Cathedral. : i O Sn o f S. Noble Sewers,r L ord t METR wis P eht o erdo L p to l o T I asked: lk an ls c mEthe R Ch S a i l r rm ß a . the mO whether the Commissioner s h a d determined up o n n h principle of drainage for that p art o f the me tropolisay north of the Thames, and if the outfall is to be in that river; also, whether the Commissioners intend to levy any additional amount of rate on the inh a bit an t s o f t h e metropolis, and, if so, what amount of rate in the pound they propose to levy for the current year. He also wished to know whether it was the intention of the Commis sioners to make any report to the Secretary of State fur the Home Department on the subject. Lord EBRINGTON must demur to the title which the Hon. Baronet had honoured him with. It was quite true that when he had attended the meetings of the Commissioners, the Commissioners had gene rally done him the honour of voting hi m into the chair, but he must disclaim the title of being considered the permanent chairman of the board. With regard to the question which the Hon. Baronet had put to him, he could only state that the drainage and outfall of the sewers of the metropolis had been and was still under the serious consideration of the Commis sioners. So soon as the works had been agreed upon by the Commissioners the;public would have notice. He could only say the Commissioners would have the power to levy whatsoever rates were necessary fJr the duo exe cution of the work, but those rates would bs made easy of payment by being spread over a number of years. BOARD OF HEALTH. Sir BENJAMIN HALL asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the report from the Board of Health would be presented, in order:that a time may be fixed for the second reading of Bills for affording a butter supply of water t) the metropolis. Sir GEORGE GREY thought the report would be ready in about three weeks. STAMP DUTIES BILL. In reply to a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, as to whether or not the Chancellor of the Exchequer was disposed to postpone the Stamp Duties Bill, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said he thought there was no necessity for any further concilia tion, with partie3 affected by 045 Dill, because the amended Bill was the result of conference and corre • spondence with a great number of bankers, merchants, and others, most competent to understand its bearing and effects. He was not, therefore, disposed to vary the arrangement for proceeding with the Bill on Monday. Mr. MULLINGS complained that there were several omissions in the Bill and objections to the clauses, which would seriously affect many persons. MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES. In reply to a question from Mr. HUME, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the miscellaneous estimates would be laid on the table of the House in a few days. MR. ANSTEY AND MR. SMITH O'BRIEN. Mr. A NSTE Y complained of certain letters written to him by Mr. Smith O'Brien on private business, since his expatriation, having been opened by Sir Wm. Denison, and gave notice that he should, on Tuesday next, move a resolution on the subject, the purport of which would be, that the matter was one calling for the severest scrutiny on the part of the blouse. ARCTIC EXPEDITION. Mr. HUME moved for an account of the charge for the purchase, repair, and outfit of the vessels now fitting for the Arctic expedition; and also a statement of all sums due or claimed by private builders for the building and alterations of the Megrera, Greenock, and Simoom, and any other sums claimed for iron steam-ships for her Ma jesty's navy, specifying the names of the vessels and of the builders, the price originally agreed upon, the price charged by the said builders, the sums paid on account by the Admiralty, and the balance now claimed.— Agreed to. COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SALARIES. Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose and said he was now about to propose the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the salaries of offices held by Members of Parliament, and to consider the propriety of reducing them. There were various precedents for the appointment of Committees for the purpose of inquiring into offices held during the pleasure of the Crown by Members of Parliament. In 1798 a Committee was appointed to in quire into many branches of the public service, and also, in 1828, a Committee which took into its notice the propriety of reducing the military expenditure. In November of 1830 Lord Al thorp : proposed the appointment of a Committee to inquire into offices held during pleasure of the Crown, and in doing so he declared that though the Government were prepared to undertake any reduction which might be deemed expedient, yet he thought it better that there should be a Committee, composed of independent Mem bers, to inquire into the subject. The Committee of 1848, which had been appointed to inquire into the military expenditure, had also performed its duties in a manner highly creditable to itself and useful to the Government. He (Lord J. Russell) had postponed the Committee which he was at present about to move for, from a wish that various gentlemen of great experience and ability, who were engaged on the Com mittee of 1848, should be at liberty to take part in this Committee. With respect to the first object of this Com mittee, viz., to inquire into the salaries of persons hold s ' ing office during pleasure under the Crown, severet pro posals had already been made in a Committee ovhich had had the miscellaneous estimates under its notice. At the same time it would be recollected that frequent pro posals had also been made for the reduction of this branch of the public expenditure, either by reducing the salaries 10 per cent., or by diminis:eing the number of persons employed in each departmeett. Yet it seemed better that any reduction of this kind should be decided upon by a Committee composed of independent Members of the House, than by the persons whose salaries it was proposed to inquire into. Lord Althorp, in moving his Committee, had stated that he did not think it desir able that the salaries of the high offices under the Crown should be reduced so low as to confine them altogether to persons of large private fortunes. With regard to the second part of the motion he said, that when Lord Denman was appointed Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench in 1831, he proposed to take a salary of 8,000/, but no regular decision had been come to by Parliament on the subject. L would be advisable, if the salaries of the Chief Justices of the Queen's Bench and of the Common Pleas were to be con sidered, that the salaries and retiring allowances of the other judges should likewise undergo investiga tion. There were besides other questions of great im portance connected with the judges of the courts of equity. Their salaries were considered by the Com mittee of 1798, and it was fit that they should again be considered by a Committee, as since that time many changes had taken place. The last part of the motion referred to the diplomatic establishments of the country, which were forreesiy defrayed out of the civil list; but since the alteratirons which separated them from being part of the expenses of the Sovereign's house hold, they had been planed on the Consolidated Fund. As nine;een years had elapsed since that separation took place it was o .esirable also that these establishments should be reconsidered by Parliament. In proposing, therefore, the t there should be a Committee on these subjects, 'AO intended that evidence should be taken before it with the view of ascertaining in wtat shape reductions could best be made, and he thought that at least one Member of the Government should have a seat on that Committee. The appointment of such a Committee was conformable to precedent, and it appeared to him.in accordance with the general fueling of the House. He observed that Mr. Disraeli and Mr. Henley had motions similar in character, and presumed, therefore, that the question was as to the most convenient mode of instituting the inquiry. Mr. Disraeli, had, however, an amendment on the paper, to the effect that Government should at once introduce a measure for the reduction of salaries; but the Govern ment could not think it advisable to do so until the sub ject had been inquired into by a Committee. The Go vernment had not been unmindful of the propriety of carrying out reductions whenever they could, and within the last few years no less a sum than 2,284,0001. had been taken eff the army, navy, and ordnance estimates. With regard to the civil departments, it certainly ap peared to him that the Government had far better means of making reductions, in point of detail, than any Com mittee of that House; and he thought that was proved by what had taken place with regard to the inquiries instituted of late years both into the d-partments of the Treasury and the Home Office. So far as it appeared upon the general surfac e , it could not be said that there were any extravagant, s,p. pointments in these offices, or that the salaries pelt' were exorbitant; but yet by a minute examinatio'e made by official persons it had been found possible "co make con siderable reductions in the departments he had mentioned. He could mentiosu a few instances t eem made. In the T w r h e e a r s e ury, red t u v. c .o tion c s hief 13 :l ad e's:es, one senior, and four junior clerks had been• abolished a t a ne t sav i ng of 5,345/. per annum. en the office of the Paymaster of the Forces, in thQ Ordnance, and in the Home-office savings had bean effected of upwards of 23,0001., and at the same time, by removing some clerks from less use ful situtecions to posts in the offices where the duties . were heavy, there, has been complete efficiency kept up in each office, And no want of attention to the general business of the country, so far as 'these offices wore concerned, had resulted from such reduction. With regard to the Treasury, the re d uct i ons wh i ch had been made in the course of the last thirty years were very considerable indeed, since he found that in 1821 there were 38 persons holding offices in that department, receiving 42,9601. per annum. In 1830 the same duty was ;performed iby 29 persons, with a salary of 24,0801., and at the present time it appeared that the duties of the Treasury were performed for 25,0001. per annum, and considering the multifarious nature of these duties, and the important matters which the Treasury had to decide, he did not believe that there could be shown anywhere, either in Europe or in America, an example of duties being so well performed for so small a re muneration. It had been said the Treasury was no thing better than an Augean stable, which required cleansing; but in his opinion never were there public duties performed so zealously, and efficiently, and econo mically as those performed by the permanent officers engaged in the Treasury.---(Cheers.) At the same time, Government had considered it ne cessary to make a comparison between the salaries paid to these officers, and those received by clerks en gaged in establishments like the Bank of England, and he was bound to say that the result of comparison was very much in favour of the clerks employed in the Bank of England and such like establishments. He had mentioned what had been done with regard ;to the Treasury and the Home-office, but it should be remembered that still further reductions would be made from time to time, while, with regard to the Colonial-office, a similar inquiry to that ho had mentioned as being made by official persons going on which would also lead to reducti ons. Other reductions was eductions of late years had been made in the Customs, and that was financially called the Excise department. In those various departments there had been a reduction of 5,1004 a year. There were various other reductions which had been made in consequence of the inquiry which had been carried on officially at the Custom-house, and which amounted to no less a sum than 64,791/. a year. It was intended there should be a reduction of twenty-eight clerks in the office, which would be a further saving of 6,900/. odd. With regard to the Excise and Stamps establishment, that was formerly connected with the Board of Inland Re venue, and a large establishment of commissioners. The Inland Revenue boards consisted of 38 commissioners. cThhaeirmpraens,enantd 6 junior commissioners; board co n s isted of a chairma n , a deputy chairman, o w f be s n ala t r b i e es Ex a c lo is n e e , upwards Stamps, and ax of 30 ,000/. a T and these,re nxed was is year. The re d uction which had b een made within the last two or thr ee years had likew i se b een very considerable, as two s e p arate boards, there were twelve t a commis sioners, two ch a i rmen, two d e puty chairmen, and eight junior commissioners, the united salaries of whom were 17,0004 a year. Compared with the former establish ment there was a saving of 5,6001. per annum. The secretary's salary had likewise been reduced 1,5001., the solicitor's 2,0004 the receiver-ge neral's 1,2001., and the comptroller-general's 1,0001. 9 1 , ' 0 h 3 e 3 d ; is t t b ri e b n ut u o ra rs b ' e p r o e u m nd p a lo g: e I a . E s :gland and I re l an d had also bee n reduced 37,100/. But beyond 7tl:oi(s),h,ebmeiunsgt d state that in 1 833 the n u mber of persons employed was a reduction of 2,024. The amount of salaries in 1832 was 9 62,174/. ; it was now 715,0001., being a reduction of 247,174/. The last ac count that had been made showed a decrease, as compared with 1833, of 2,170 persons, and in the salaries of 259,6701., being more than a quarter of a million of money in that department. There had been from time to time various other reductions; but it had been thought desirable to effect those reductions with as little as possible of hardship to individuals. Now, he thought he sh ou ld state, t h at i n proposing this Consunitt:e he proposed it, as it migia h,ive br•eri proposed in 1798, or iu 1807, or in 1830, with reference to the duties to be performed by those Various officers, and not with the view, which certainly some Gentlemen seemed to have taken very warmly, that there was at present such a decrease in the expenses which belonged to the office that it was possible, by some scale, to make a sudden reduction of the salaries of all of us. The Committee would have to consider not merely the price of corn, but also what was the reduction in all those expences which persons in public offices have t bear. He did not think that were many of those it _`)._ which would bear reduction. He held in his hag:? . _:!_u 3 . count in detail the expense of a clerk of 150' ,., ,fa t c_ did not think that there were many ite. , s in nuu th n a u t which would bear reduction. There "' s , were various other subjects which a Committee w , slain have to con sider if it were proposed to make a eduction upon the principle'of prices. At the same g he did not mean to say that as the general price , 0 ,(7 v , j ; I was very much decreased, that might be tal - 0 _ - , e , n into consideration; but he did think it desirable «stet that decrease should be taken on the star& Ara of reduction. He was now about to er e/se:Jude what he had to say with regard , to, the general p ro p os iti on w hi c h he had to lay ' a ,fore the House; but before doing so, he would just allude to a proposition which had been made, th'et the public service would be better carried on if the 'persons holding office were altogether removed frorei Parliament. It was evident that such a proposal v;M quite inconsistent with the mode of government in this country. Unless they had persons in Parliament to defend measures there which might be brought forward, it was quite evident that there would bo no sort of har mony between the Members of the the two Houses of Parliament. They had an instance of this in the attempt which had been made to carry on the business of the Poor-law Board without a Secretary of State for that department in the House to defend its measures. That had been altered, and under his late lamented friend, Mr. Charles Buller, and the present President, every complaint had been brought into Parliament, and satisfactorily answered, so that a much easier working cf this breech had been perceptible since the introduction of the President of the Poor-law Board into Parliament. He merely mentioned this as an instance, for he never expected that any Com mittee would for a moment entertain the idea of re moving members of the Government from their seats in Parliament. He now left the question in the hands of the House, feeling certain that any general Committee would deal with it in a manner satisfactory to the interests of the country. The present members of the Government were merely tenants-at-will; but the Committee would have to consider the permanent interests of the country. The Noble Lord then concluded by moving the appoint ment of a Select Committee, to inquire into the salaries and emoluments of offices 'field during the plea sure of the Crown by Mtimbers of ether House of Parliament, voted in the annual estimates; and also the salaries and emolumelas of judicial offices in the supe rior courts of law "and equity in the United Kingdom; and into theret string pensions allotted to the judges; and also into 'sae expense of diplomatic establishments charged. on the Consolidated Fund. MM.:. DISRAELI rose to move as an amen d men t t o Lord John Russell's motion, " That this House is in possession of all the information requisite to revise and regulate public salaries; that Parliamentary Committees of inquiry under such circumstances would only lead to delay ; and that it is the duty of the Govern ment, on their own responsibility, forthwith to introduce the measures that may be necessary for effecting every reduction in the national establishments con sistent with the efficient discharge of the public service." He said that if he had not thought that this amendment which ho was about to propose was one which, if a ;opted, would be for the honour of that House, and for the advantage of the public service, he should not have presumed to have addressed the House on the present occasion. He had listened with great attention to the speech of the Noble Lord, and he must say he was surprised at the general tenor of it. The only impression on his mind was this—why did the Noble Lord not persevere in that course which he had prosecuted so successfully? Why should he have asked a Committee of the House of Commons to discharge duties which, according to his own account, he had pro secuted so successfully?—(H e ar ' hear.) The state ment which the Nobl e L ord had made was rather a vindication of the principle which he (Mr. Disraeli) had laid before the consideration of the House than one which could at all authorise the present motion.— (Hear.) It was extremely difficult to extract anything like principle from the Noble Lord's statement, but he dealt very amply in the precedents which he thought justified the motion. He relerred to the practice of sub. milting to a Committee of the House estimates for the public service, and reminded them that it .had been adopted by successive Governments with great public benefit. There was, hoe ever an essential difference between the precedents to which the Noble Lord referred and the course which he proposed now to adopt. It was very true that this, as well as other Governments, referred the estimates fur the public service to a Committee of the House ; but what were the estimates ? They were the embodied opinion of the Government on an important part of the public service; but the Government, under these el:- cumstances, did not shrink from previously stating their opinions, yet he could not find that in the motion of the Noble Lord he had preferred any opinion whateve".— (Cheers.) He (Mr. Disraeli) was at a loss to know whether it was the opinion of the Government that these particular branches of the public service were susceptible of any reduction or not. If it were the opinion of the Government that they were not, they were now playing with the House of Commons, and if, e‘ttr due investigation, proper inquiry, and mature reflection, they arrived at a result that they were susceptible of reduction, he asked the Government to give the House the result of their inquiry; let the House deal with it as it, in its wisdom, might deem best. But the precedents of the Noble Lord appeared extremely infelicitous, Now, he would take the instance of 1831, namely, Lord Althorn's Committee cf 1831—that Committee was ap pointed to inquire into the salaries and offices held by Members of both Houses of Parliament, but was that a precedent for the motion of the Noble Lord? Admit, which he was not ready to do, that it was politic for a Committee of the House of Commons to inquire into this subject without having the opinion of the Ministers upon it, how did the pre cedent of 1831 apply to this motion ? The duty of the Committee of 1831 was to in quire into salaries embraced in the estimates, but this Committee would have to inquire into salaries, emo luments, sad pensions, which were received by Act of Parliament ; and, therefore, if the Committee come to a vote upon the subject of judicial and diplomatic salaries, emoluments, and pen sions, it must be entirely non-effective. To make such a vote effective, the Minister must intro duce a Bill, and if this Committee was to deal with the salaries, emoluments, and pensions of judicial and diplomatic appointments, why did not the Ministers introduce a Bill now? In that case they would have the opinion of the Ministers upon the subject, while if there were any details to be investigated, which he by no means admitted, then the Noble Lord might move that it be referred to a Committee. In his amend ment, which the Noble Lord seemed to have mis understood, he expressed an opinion that the House was in possession of all the information necessary to decide and regulate public salaries; and to prove this he need only refer to the reports and papers which had already been laid on the table, and which the Noble Lord had made such use of. The Hon. Gentleman, in continuation, said—Here I must say, in regard to the report of the Committee of 1834, which I observe from what fell from the Noble Lord to-nigh, and from some expressions of his the other night, showed the tone of his mind, that that report, in fact, forms the basis of the policy which I am now pur suing. I will call the attention of tho House to the reason given by Lord Althorp for that inquiry into these Parliamentary salaries; and I will ask the House whe ther they consider that that is a satisfactory reason for the course proposed ? Now, it appears to me, that Lord Althorp, in the commencement of his speech when mov ing for this Committee, had laid it down—not as a matter of principle, but as a matter of what I may call senti ment—that there was an indelicacy in a Minister at tempting to settle the amount of his own salary; and the Noble Lord opposite has referred to that sentiment as one that influenced him in the course he is now pursuing. I ask the House are they prepared to sanction that sen timental course of conduct. In my opinion there is no thing more dangerous in the conduct of public business than delicacy.---(lronical cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Ido not know what Hon. Gentlemen from their own experience may know on that subject, but in my limited experience I know that wherever des licacy was admitted into transactions of business I have always considerably suffered.—(Laughter.) Sir, I do not think &Minister ought to shrink from the performance of a public duty by telling us he considered it indelicate.—(Hear, hoar.) For example, I think that there is nothing indelicate in an individual occupying the position of a Minister of the Crown looking not merely to his own interest but to that of his successors, acting boldly upon his own responsibility and upon his own knowledge, and proposing that which he thinks a fair remuneration for a public aertant.---(Elcar, hear.) Considering well the interests of the public, and feeling the necessity of having the highest talent engst4ed in the public service, a Minister ought to feel h 0 Slim deli cacy in settling the question himself. But Lord Al thorp, although I am willing to do justice to the great qualities of that eminent person, we must remember, was brought up in that exclusive Parliamentary 6ysteitt which flourished here from the period of the accession of the House of Hanover down to the year 1830, when we know that the Mi n i s t ers o f S tate, and those particular friends that sat near them, bore a particular relationship to each other. Lord Althorp, as Minister ; mak have eits perienced a peculiar delicacy in dealing With these sala ries, which we should not be told existed in a reformed House of Commons. lam of opiuion that we have suf ficient information, in the first place, to retide aed regulate all public sahtries. We have that information, in my opinion, in the documents to which the Noble Lord opposite referred; in the series of reports which he has brought under our consideration; and in every report, and especially the more recent ones, submitted to us, These, in my mind, furnish a strong argument against the motion of the Noble Lord, and in favour of the amendment which I have the honour to bring under the notice of the House. But we have other information. We have every year the names of the persons and the salaries of all those public offices brought annually under our consideration. There is not an individual who fills any of those public offices whose Lame vi e do not know, and with whose salary we are not fully acquainted. Not only as Members of Parliament, but as men of the world, we cannot help being able to form an opinion founded upon that information which exists in our own archives. We cannot help forming an opinion also on the nature of the duties those individuals fulfil. I want to know, then, if we agree to appoint a Committee, how we are to obtain more information? Will you ex arm-doe the judges? li,o Nobio Lord . - ,lp, "of curse, the Corisauttee.will have the privilege of summoning them before them." Will you examine the ,judges iia refer- ence to the ere d ens - es of their circuits? Will you make them produe se their tavern bills and their vouchers? Will them ' ell eminent counsel before you and examine their t earl. to their professional incomes? Will you summon sie • clerks to produce their fee-books? It is imps - ete to contemplate anything so indecorous and ir - discreet. —(Laughter.) But the Government has all this information, even from the beat sources—they hold confidential communication with the judges, and they could not offend the dignity of the highest magistrate in acting upon that information which they have so cau tiously obtained. The Government could acquire a knowledge as to the salaries and emoluments connected with all these offices from the most eminent members of the bar, by whom they are surrounded; and, mind you, the Government are a portion of the House, and that information of the Government is the information of the House. I will now refer to our diplomatic establish ment. How will you investigate into that subject? Will you summon the ambassadors from Constantinople, Vienna, and Panic? Will you have them brought over from the German courts to be examined, or will you ob tain that information in a much more convenient and satisfactory manner ? Will you summon before you the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ? He will give you the most accurate and most complete in formation. You will thus have the advantage cf dealing with a Minister who is perfectly acquainted with all those details.—(hear.) But suppose that instead of this evidence the Noble Lord would prepare a Bill on the subject, and introduce it into the House. We should have, in this case, more speedily and satisfactorily before us the advantage of his knowledge and experi ence, and would be enabled to attain these results more quickly, which, as advocates of economy, and the effi ciency of the public service, we so much desire.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, in adverting to my resolution, has, 1 am sure from misapprehension, entirely miscon ceived the latter portion of it. He seems to think that in laying down an abstract declaration I have stated it is the duty of Ministers to introduce measures that may be necessary for effecting every reduction that is com patible with the efficient discharge of the public service, and I have attempted to impress on the House that Ministers are guiltless of any attempt at reduction. Now the amendment I am about to move is specifically irrespective of what Ministers have done in past times. I say, whatever reductions in these establishments it may be necessary now to accomplish, that it is their duty to come forward, and on their own responsibility to advise them. I am perfectly well aware that, in• attempting to offer any opposition to a measure of this kind—which, though it comes forward in a plausible shape, I am in duced to believe that the House will consider it to have a very insidious tendency—l shall have great difficulty in arguing against a proposition which, on the surface, is fluttering to the feelings of the House of Commons, which seems to delegate authority to the House of Com mons, and which seems to increase the power and authority of this assembly. All I seek to do is to ask the House well and wisely to consider whether the effect of the motion of the Noble Lord be really of that charac ter to which I have referred; whether it may not rather have the tendency to diminish our authority instead of increasing it. Now let us sea in what situation the House will be placed if we accede to this motion of the Go vernment. In the first place wo have to deal with this Committee. I have not the smallest doubt that the Gentlemen who will compose that Committee will be worthy of that responsibility which will be entrusted to them. I will not say for a moment that it will be a packed Committee, because that would be coarse.— (Laughter.) All I will say of it is this—l think that it ill;ee a well-arranged Corecnittee.—(Renewed laughter.) It will, no doubt, be a Committee the majority of which would consist of Gentlemen who, from political feeling and private consideration, would have a lively sympathy with the policy of the Government.—(Hear, 11.(ar.) In that case it is very possible that those who are advocates for revision and retrenchment in the public establish lishments will not filid that the Committee will come ti a resolution very favourable to their views. But lot us advance to another part of the subject, and suppose that the Committee will not only be a fair Committee —because all Committees we must consider fsir— but absolutely a fair Committee. Suppose they come to a resolution which we have so much at heart, will it be a Committee which will be enabled to effect that which has reference to a very important and more serious pertion of the motion ? W hy, as I said before, this Committee can only come to resolutions, which will amount, in fact, to an opinion given by that Committee upon a statement of facts that are already before Par- Lament. There is another consideration which I think the House ought is weigh well Lefore they accede to the motion of the Noble Lord, What I want to impress on the House is this—not to permit themselves to be led away by the precedents of estimates which have been referred to Comittees. I do not mean to take a pedantic view of the character and duties of the House of Coin moos. I do not want to :put a sever con struction on the part cf the constitution which defines the duties of the House of Commons, nor to refer to those duties as they were consi dered in the days of the Tudors and the Stuarts. On the contrary, I think it is a beneficial necessity that a great deal of the power of the State should be concen trod in this assembly. I do not grudge the House of Commons that power which we have over the public purse. On the contrary, I deplore of late years, parti cularly since the passing of the Reform Bill, that the powers of the House of Commons over the taxation of the country has considerably diminished.— (Hear, hear.) The House of Commons has now to deal with a comparatively smell portion of the public expenditure. And for my own part, I regret to see that the sugar duties has ceased to bo regulated by an annusl vote.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore it is not the authority of the House of Commons I am contending against, when I tell you that you will woke a grand mistake if you permit the Ministry to advise you to carry out this motion. What will be the situation of the Committee if they are even disposed to carry out the most sanguine hopes of reform? What will be the situation of the House of Commons under these circumstances? Hitherto it has been a principle of the constitution that we should not have the privilege of originating a tax. No private Member of this House has the privilege of proposing a vote of the public money. You hare been the guar• dians of the public purse and the critics of the public ex penditure, and in this respect you necessarily occupy a popular position. A Minister places these estimates be fore you in a manner so extraordinary that, if often in dulged in, would transfer the executive from Downing street to St. Stephen's; and he asks the House of Com mons to fulfil those popular functions, the exercise of which has made the House of Commons live so long in the affections of the community—he asks you to be the guardians of the public purse and the critics of the public expenditure. But what does he do now, when he places a blank leaf in your hands, and asks you to fill it up by the insertion of the amount which you think is necessary for the expen diture of the country, ie reference to peculiar establish ments? Why, ho asks the House of Commons to tax the people—he invests you with the most invidious power—and hereafter, if these establishments should be called oppressive, the people cannot say it is the admi nistration, or Downing-street, or the Government of the country, that had cast these burdens upon them, but the House of Commons would bo placed in the obnoxious po sition—the House of Commons, which the people have hitherto looked upon as the guardians of their treasury, who had saved them at all times from the fiscal extor tions of the executive.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, nothing can be more unconstitutional than the Government es caping from the responsibility which was incident to it self by such a course.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time they cannot tike a course which, if persisted in, is more calculated to diminish its authority and to lower the character of the House of Commons than that course which calls on the House of Commons to settle the amount of taxation. Now, I ask the House to consider what must be the conduct and what the inevitable consequences of this Committee, if you agree to the motion of the Noble Lord ? What ever may be the information wo possess, and amply possess on all those subjects—whatever information the Government may possess irrespective of their position as Members of this House, if the Committee is appointed, ono thing is quite clear—they must investigate de novo into all these details as if they had no previous know ledge of the subject, because nothing can be considered authentic or satisfactory to the country without a full and complete examination into all these questions. What will the Committee have to examine? It will have to examine into three subjects, which, if minutely ex amined into, would require three Committees instead of one. They will have to examine three subjects which would require a combination of knowledge in these Mem bers, which, even in the House of Commons, this small number of persons could not supply. The man who would be best qualified to decide on the amount of sala ries to be received by Members of Parliament holding office under the Crown would be totally unfit to decide upon the question of judicial salaries; whereas a man most competent to decide upon the latter would be ut terly lost if he entered into the complicated arrange ments connected with our diplomatic establisments. Well, then, what would be the necessary conse- quence as regards the Committee? It would be a flattering estimate to suppose that at the end of the ses sion they had concluded their labours. No one could suppose that this was possible. We would have on the table or the Hottse the evidence given before the Com mittee at the commencement of the session of 1851; and then the Committee would ask leave to sit again. We have certainly heard a great deal about the works of art that are to be exhibited in 1851, and great doubts enter tained as to whether our countrymen would be able to compete with foreigners t but I think we could then ex hibit one production which no for#igner could match, and that would be the blue book that would emanate fiend this Oomreittee,—(Laughter.) therefore, ask whether yo'.!, Members of this House, who are anxious for revision and reliant, eats consistently OP' port a - motion that must lead to this inevitable result'? beat.) if it do net, I will show you it will lead to worse. If end 00 ,, -TDMCIIC upon their own responsibility, furnished with all that informa tion Upon the subject which by their position they possess, which is not in any degree possessed by the Members of the House generally—if they would come forward frankly and in a straightforward manner to express their opinions upon this question; if they would give us the advantage of their knowledge and ex perience, end at once introduce a Bill on these three sub jects, who can doubt but that the Noble Lord himself, who is a Member of this House for a period of 30 or 40 years, th e t urn o f w h ose m i n d hiss been to male _ himself thoroughly acquainted with constitutiona h l o csurb jects conne c t e d w i t h t e e H o use of Commons — ' who but that in one morning, if ho cheep, he could settle the whole question as to the propriety the existing scale of Parliamentarysalaries—a question of revising which would take a Committee months, and perhaps sessions, to form any opinion upo n . — ( Hear, have referred to the Noble Lord t he First Ministeridcar.) o l t the Crown, and to the Noble Lord the Sa.ret.try i f If the and LcavnA Lord who press the other H ouse would but propose a measure on this important .question,, with what promptitude the Go vernment might come to a full and satisfactory settle ment, and a dignified decision in respect to the judicht! salaries. Who is there who does not know how com petent the Noble Viscount the Secretary of State would be to decide a question as to diplomatic services? We might have all those Bills brought in at once; and if it is really the opinion of the Government that these re , * ductions should take place, they should have been brought in long ago—(Hear, hear)—when the step could have been taken in a manner .creditable to thetn selves and satisfactory to the House rend the country (Hear, hear.) I have shown the rouse if they ap pointed this Committee what the consequences would be as respects the Committee themselves, anti' what the inevitable consequence would be in respect to the peg" tion of the Members of this House. The Noble Lord bas referred to a motion made by the Hon. Menaleer .for Oxfordshire, and he has done me the honour of referri og to a notice of motion which I have given. Now, I et al not, at this moment, acquainted with the .detailhof e proposition of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, but have the knowledge of his sincere and straightforward character. lam convinced that he has not taken up the' question in an idle and trilling nsanner. I know it, has occupied his consideration for a considerable time, and I have a knowledge of his business-like habits and indomitable perseverance.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever may be the opinion of the House as to his propo-. sition, I cannot doubt but that it will be a well considered and a dignified proposition (Hear, hear.) I ask you frankly, with what; chance of success will my Hon. Friend the Member for Oxfordshire introduce for your consideration a measure which he intimated last year, and which, no doubt, in the' interval, has been most seriously considered and mte tured, if you afford the First Minister of the Crown the pretext for saying, after he has set down, that there is a Committee appcinted up atairs tc; inquire into the sub ject, and therefore no proposition of the kind could be listened to. Could you for a moment have fancied it was for the honour of the House of Commons or the in terests of our constituents to support the motion of the First Minister of the Crown when you reflect upon the , consequence on the conduct of independent Members?' Can you for a moment make up your mind to support a motion which, if it be not unconstitutional in its origin as it will be in its results, must prove most hostile to Parliamentary independence. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord has adverted to a notice of mine on the t a ble• of the House. Ho might taunt me with the fact that the notice was given a day after his own notice aces giver. I can assure you, Sir, that that was a casualty arising from my sudden and constrained absence. (Cheers.) The Honourable Member for Montrose is aware that, many weeks before, I mentioned S. - o him that it was my intention to bring forward this motion. And now, Sir. I will say one wont with respect to my motiv es in bringing forward the motion of which I gave notice. I do act wish now to enter into any discussion as to the causes that have produced, in latter years, in this coulee try, that which may be called an impatience of taxation, and that which certainly did not exist some timeago. Id& not want to bring any elements of controversy into the discussion tc-night which do not properly belong to it; but I think that Gentlemen on both sides of the House still readily admit that there is a desire on the part of their constituents that a great economy in the adminis tration of our affairs should be forced upon the Govere ment. This, it will be admitted, is a very general feel ing.—(Hear, hear.) Now, I felt it to be my duty to op pose measures which, upon their surface, bore the ap pearance of being extensive reductions in the public ex penditure. I did oppose them—first, because I per ceived that they were founded upon the unphilosophio basis that the expenditure of a great empire should be regulated at any particular moment by what might have been but the necssary and sufficient expenditure in past. times. I opposed them, secondly, because they were , propositions of a vast character, and because they' refrained from entering into any details.—(Hears hear.) I conceived them to be unwise, or if wiser to be utterly impossible. I always have been t 1 opinion that if reductions in our establishments are to be' effected, they must be proposed by those who are master , ' of the details in the particular branch of the service in which the reduction is sought, before they can be rightly brought for investigation by this House. and when they are so proposed, then those who subtnjt them may call with confidence upon this House to support them.- - (Hear, hear.) Such was my feeling in piecing that no• tice on the paper which the Noble Lord hass referred to. I was very willing to have seen the question taken up by the Government. I was even in hopes that it would be so; and when there were rumours that practical measures of reform and retrenchment were to be brought forward by the Government, I, feeling that the measure which I had attempted to grapple taith was one o.e con' siderable difficulty, did hope that it would be tak en up by the Government; but it was not.—(Hear, hear.) . I then ventured to give that notice, not unconscious 0 ' the difficulties I had to contend with. I knew that nil' thing could be more irksome than to propose a reforni' . in any particular branch of the public service, particu larly when that proposition came from a Member in the Opposition, or from one who was not connected with the Government, or who was that which is called a mere Member of Parliament. Now, the diplomatic service is one which is very generally referred to, and respecting which there is a very general idea that considerable retrenchments might be made, and this too with a due regard to the public service. But then, as to the de tails, we are not so familiar with them as with those, which are connected with our d omes ti c serv i ce , aoci therefore many of them have, in point of fact, escaped criticism. I was, then, well aware o f th e extreme dia" culty of meddling with that branch of the public s e rvice' I do not desire to speak of myself. I am only deseribieg: the feedings of any gentlemen in my position. I knew' that amongst the difficulties to be overcome, I had tf,l, encounter first of. all th a t o f o ffi c i a l information. * knew that next I latd to encounter a Minister unrivallel in his acquaintance with the details of his officee--; (Hear.) These, then, were fearf u l o dd s; an d w h a t, I . ask, is there to sustain a man under such circumstances next to the honour of aVaining public distinction? It le the belief in the generous sympathy of men on both sides of the House—it is the belief that they will 10ols with indulgence on any slight errors that may be made by a Member under such circumstances, and that WI will support him if be is right.—(Cheers.) I ask thee what possible chance of success could I have on such * question if I have not only to encounter official inform atiun, not only an able and accomplished Minister, be have also to appeal, as I should then have to do, if Ill°, motion of the Noble Lord b e a d opte d , to an emascula t e (' Ass embly—(Cheers)—that has delegated all its. fulsc' e tions to another Chamber, sitting iu another place!- - 1 (Hear, hear.) Why, there would be no chance ; alp though the great body of the Members may vote /0 / forme here, still as to that vote effecting a reduction itr the public expenditure, rely upon it it would be in veal' , and it will be nothing more than a mockery and a delft' sion.—(Cheers.) I have heard with great regret that it has been said that this motion of mine is not a fit 10 6° tion. I have heard with very great regret that Gentle" men have said, that though they approved of the amend' ment they cannot support it, because it is 4. a peer movement." That is a very dangerous and a very, vague phrase, and Gentlemen should well consider before they allow their conduct to be influenced by such a motive, and permit it to have a control 0 4 their behaviour.—(Hear, hear.) lam not one of these' who deprecate party connexions. As long as we have . a Parliamentary constitution, I think parties are necer sary; for without parties, a representative assembly might degenerate into the most corrupt of governments;. —(Hear.) I wish to see revived two great parties, fe l ' think they are for the advantage of this realm. Tbev , however, is not the opinion of many Gentlemen in tbo House. They have declared that they do not approf ° of party connexion; they profess themselves as the pelf,'" Ocular representatives of popular interests. They re" us on every occasion that party connexions are the catte e of the great evils of this country. I shall now be se a ' prised if many of these Gentlemen vote against ea amendment of which they approve because it is a pert; movement.—(Cheers.) It ever there was an emendates that enti' ely arose from the business papers of the Houses this is the one, tend I am at a loss to discover any th° could so purely arise from it. H a d it no t b een f o r the' motion of the Hon. Member for Oxford and others, 00 whatever side of the House they sit—moti ons we ll de' serving the consideration of this House—this motion 04 , the part of the Government would not have been brought forward. Had it not been for that motion the amend' merit would never have been brought forward—thel which has now been brought to defend the independence: of the House of Commons against a Ministerl e t manoeuvre.—(Cbsers.) What the fate of the emendate" may be it is not for me to decide upon; but I can say, i 1 bringing it forward, that I have proposed it because sincerely believe that, if adopted, it will sustain the honour of this House—the credit of the administrati°7 itself ; but, above all, it will conduce to the welfare a' the public service. —(Cheers.) Upon the question being put, Sir B. HALL, in supporting the motion, declared the! be would have desired to see the inquiry extended to o all branches of the public service, and especially to intermediate officers iu the public departments; for 1 was they, and not the great officers of the State, th e , °; were overpaid. Ho would have an inquiry into 'P hi, services and payment of every officer paid above 15 ' a year. Mr. HUME supported the amendment. An inggt e y by public committees resulted in no good. Their commendations were never carried into effect unless •Il e '; proved of by the Government. He pointed to fi b , had occurred with committees in recommending the e e h ‘ ,, sation of reductions with the navy and army pr o motions, and yet, in defiance of these recommendations, the pr°,,, motions were continued. They had now, in the appe a r dices to the ordnance and navy estimates materials fo. bringing down every unnecessary expenditure in tbefa departments. So far these reports were invaluable, 0 ;,, e very hour they would tell for the public interest ffeo l nointing out how and where reductions might be e "e Hear, hear" from Lord J. Bussell)—but no than k . --- othe overnment.—(Cheers.) The only strong P , he tressed by either of the reports was in h lh report the Committee on the navy estimates, *et t tw 'n h a i t ch u - a w s oafs a reduction of the number of admirals. present they saw men who had retired from the nahkv el half-psy he did not know how Many years; and eithie he had Mated what was the amount of half-pek so, thought he should be warranted in saying that the ;lea vernseent had behaved extremely ill, and had not Sttl the interests of the community.—(Rear, hear.) Iu I s h eh i when the finance Committee sat up s tairs, the hair was 876,0001. Hp to 1840 it was gradually redthet h e 762,0001.; and from that period to this it was '73ler er To leave it to Ministers to effect reductions upon tu_s' h e ports of committees, was, therefore, in his opinioV9 o l9 ,_ir use.—(Hear.) Ia 1834 he (Mr. Hume) was the _F7 tee and that Cop 3 :_!_jief o r man e f c t o h m o e f m s a h e recommende d Com m i ttee i t t n t h e t e e e r s o e t n s r t o i n i g i g r h e o t s m il t ° p u t o h s s e e s s i possible mannerheavy charges t t h i bi in bee: the lightle. uses inflicted upon them. At t h a t levied spite y sv as in 71‘Ol.filfth°(e:rie:'c''orrr'''14t o(fltdh,ooo4Collmit:tdrituiltatiectlel was done, except with reference one recomWp¢d