The Sun. — London, England, 1850-04-13 00:00:00

PERIAL PARLIAMENT. 7OUSE OF LURDS, April le. n or. l . T ''a IIPBB,LL (in the absence of the Lord Chan .'s . a his ,eat upen the Woelseck at Five o'clock. LAW OF PLEADING. ,‘ 11PBELL broueht in a Bill to amend the lass e pieading. In introducing the measure the Noble and Learned Lord went into a Minute technical expla nation of the practice of special pleading. The Bill was•then read a fleet time. PETITION'S. The Eerl of ZETLAND presented several petitions against Post-office labour on Sunday. CONVICT PRISONS BILL. Eer' GREY moved the third reading of this Bill. Lerd LYTTELTON thought that in several important respects the present measure was a great improvement. He regarded the separate imprisonment and the penal laboer on public works, which by this Bill were to precede traeepertetion, as of the greatest possible benefit. There ' were some pereone, at the head of whom was Arch bishop Whately, who considered it chimerical to attempt to r&'orrn criminals, and declared that the great object of punishment should he to d• ter others from the corn mieeion of crime. Oa the oilier hand, Captain Mac eocochie and his followers thought that all e (.Torts should be directed to the reformation of criminals, and that very little attention should be paid to those who urged that punishment should be inflicted to deter others from crime. The present measure attempted to combine the two, but he objected to the sending , out criminals with tickets of leave, as being a revival of the old assignment system, and he doubted whether it would be attended with suc cess. Ho gave great credit to his Noble Friend for Laving abstetined from attempting to press on the co lony of New South Wales the reception of convicts. • The case of the Cape of Good , Hope showed how futile such an attempt must be, yet he must say that he thostreht the people of New South Wales were blind to their own interests, and failed in their duty to the em peee when they refused to receive convicts.—(Hearehear.) IS-, however, recommended that the same course of los -ding should be adopted with regard to that colony w %tee had been adopted with regard to the Cape, and that the order in Council should be withdaawn. He thought, however, that much of the objection on the part of Vie Australian colonists was to he attributed to the neglect of the Government authorities to form proper regulations, and this was more particularly the case at Port Philip. He thought it was impossible to read the papers laid on the table without brines convinced of the precariousness of the continuance of the system of transportation to Van Diemen's Lind. Free settlers had been encouraged to settle there, and the feeling of the co lony was 4gainst the reception of convicts there. Ile well re whored the state of confusion in which the question of Transportation was left when himself and his collcaeues left office, but he thought the confusion bad btee increased by the conduct of the present Govern ment, The colonists of Van Diemen'e Land considered that they had received a pledge that in 1846 trans portatioa sheuld cease, and they now threw that pledge in the teeth of the Government, which attempted to introduce convicts into Van Diemen's Land after a probation at Norfolk Island, which could only be considered as a large gaol, and he believed on the whole a well-regulated and a safe gaol. It appears that nwsons going out there with a condi tinel pardon, which they were to receive after serving in tlfe penal works, were to be freed from all restraint, and to be treated altogether as free persons; except that they were not to be permitted to return to this country. It was not surprising that the colonists objected to the reception of these persons. A pledge had been given that for every batch of convicts sent out an equal number of free settlers shoul I be sent out to Van Diemen's Land by the Government. Ile feared this would tend to deteriorate the character of the fres settlers. Who would like to be sent out as a sort of maltewe'ght to a convict ? With regard to the consent of Western Australia to receive convicts, it was not sur prisine, that the perishing colony should catch at any strew to save themselves from impending ruin for want of labour; but the Governor of the colony had distinctly stated that it' any other method could he devised for ob taining the requisite supply of labour, the colonists of Western Australia would be among the first to refuse to receive convicts. Lord WODELIOUSE expressed his general approval of the Government plan, and especially of the plan of separate confinement, which he thought would prove a fiery severe punishment to the usual class of prisoners, by debarring them from intercourse with their compa nions in crime, and preventing them from talking over their past depredexions and planning fresh ones. With regard to that part of the scheme which related to the employment of convicts on public works. be thought with due care and supervision it would be found successful, although there were considerable difficulties to contend with. The remaining part cf the scheme he thought epee to more doubt. He was aware how impracticable it was to devise any satisfactory scheme of secondary punishment, without having recourse to transportation. There was, besides, this double advantage connected with transportation, that it finally got rid of a large number of criminals who would otherwise be periodically returned into the population of the country, and also afforded the colonies the benefit of a large supply of cheap labour. He thought, however, that the evils which were entailed on the colony by such a constant accession Of crime counterbalanced the advantages which they received, and that, under those circumstances the reception of convicts ought not to be forced on any eelony against its will, and he decidedly disapproved of nay nteeniet to do so. The Earl of CHICHESTER expressed his concur renee with the view ~f the last speaker. He objected • elee to the principle of colonies being chosen for the re ohsn of tramp irted convicts, as it could not but be air- hictive of the utmost danger to ourselves and other countries to endeavour to build up nations of such mate riels. He never expected that transportation, under certain limitations, should be given up for secondary , pailishments. He considered the measure before the Huu•e was one in the right direction, but still it should ba followed by others more general and stringent. The Secretary of State should be bound to report annually to Parliament as to the distribution of convicts, and there , ought also to be an annual inspection of those convicts. An annual report of the manner in which the Govern meatrxercised their 'powers in this respect would be at • tended with great advantage, and would impart confi • dance to the due adminietration of criminal justice. He utterly . disclaimed any hostility to the measure; but still be maintained that the system, in order to be thoroughly effl2acemis, should be more extensive. He was formerly cipprnecl to. the employment of convicts on public works before transportation, because ho thought their asso ciation immeliately after solitary confinement consider ably weakened its moral benefit -; bat he had altered his opinion, on the favourable reports of inspectors, and Oil information derived from other sources. lie anxiously hoped that the Government, having adopted this system, would carry it out in a liberal spirit as to the manner of its extension, so that in a short time they would find all the hulks abolished, and every con vict prisoner secured the benefit of moral and religious attendance. Lord STANLEY admitted that in the earlier stages of punishment intended for convicts there was a greater facility for supervision and control in the mother country than in the colonies. For that reason he approved, to a certain extent, of the proposed measure. He admitted thcandvisability of greater superintendence, while at the Same time, it was his impression that the system of punishment introduced and recommended by the First . Lord of the Treasury had not been fairly tried. From the last reports of the inspectors of Portland prison, he found that the experiment appeared to work satisfacto rily. With a great proportion of convicts the very name of transportation carried terror, and had the effect of . deterring' from crime. Another reason why he re joiced that transportation was still to be continued was would thet it remove convicts from the s cene of I their former transgressions and from contact with their 'old associates, eo that a fair chance might be . afforded them of becoming thoroughly reformed. If not remelted. to a distant country they would always be sub ject to old temptations, and, in all probability, brought back to crime either by the threats or promises of vicious • companions. For these reasons it was of the utmost im portance that mule convicts should be finally removed to a. penal colony, after undergoing the preliminary stages of punishment in this country. That being his opinion, he conceived that if transportation were to be continued. a vast deal more would have to be done, and they should not diminish the ultimate urgency of the punishment. The old principle of assignment, he considered, had been teo,hastily abandoned; and in announcing that the sys s tern of transpoitstion to New South Wales would cease witin a cewtain brief period atter the announcement, he considered the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies heel acted with over-haste, and had caused an un due pressure on ea single colony, Van Diemen's Lent?, 'by selecting it as the single receptacle 'he,. convicts, especially as the House of Com mons bad, almost concurrently, by special resolution, put a atop to imprisonment or transportation in hulks. At. that period steps were taken for the pur nos'O of diminishing the inconvenience by authorising • ~l&e. Governor of Van Diemen's Land to establish set cements, with the view of enabling ticket-of-leave me n to become settlers, and obtain their own livelihood. Ac cording to the plan of the Noble Lord at the head o f t h e celonial department, there would be a greater number of cenvlcts, after undergoing the preliminary stages of Punishment, sent to Van Diemen's Land than under the eysteM, and he thought that great encouragement 4 3 'given that c olony by what had occurred at the Cape of Giia d trope to revolt against the introduction of so considerable a number of convicts. What security was there th at Van Diemen'a Land would not resist, or that all the moral inconveniences of such a deportation would not be renewed? .Government should look beyond five or ten years, as to the result of overcrowding Van Die men's Land with .convicts. The p ro position of accom panying them wi t h a certain amount of free labour, would increase that of which there was already a supe r ' ahqndance.—(lieer, hear.) He had thought it right to wake those obesrvatious, not with a view to throw any impediment in.the way of the experiment Govern treet wee making, as he thought in what they were doing they were actuate I by tee best intentions • but he had thought it requisite net to allow the third reading of the Bill to pass without reminding th the; they must look forward to what woeulGdovernment e happea from the adoption of the presenhtetoiuresvei,tathblayt - they were only stavin g o ff th o ev il day which t few years come upon th em , w h en they Would Issave in a meet the evil even in a w orse f orm t h an that in whichtiet at present existed. Lord MONTEAGLE said he had for a long time mi 'lately considered the subject of transportation, and all the information he could collect on the subject, from personal observation and otherwise, convinced him that it was a pqnishment much dreaded, and therefore a most salutary one. Ile Ireland he knew that it was even more dreaded than the punishment of death itself. With rest . pea to the general question,. he did not think that it had been fairly dealt with, fur no .one could doubt that the Tur SUN, LONDON'. SATURDAY EVENING-, APRIL 18, 1860.9 amended Bill was the re3ult of conference and corre spondynce with a great number cf hankers, merchants, and others, most competent to understand its be-tring and effects. He was not, therefore, eisposed to vary the arrangement for proceeding with the Bill on Monday. Mr. MULLINGS complained that there were several omissions in the Bill and objections to the clauses, which would seriously 'affect many persons. MISCELLANEOUS ES TI MATES. _ In reply to a question from Mr. HUME, The CHANCE LLOR•of the EXCHEQUER said the misce'laneous estimates would bo laid on the table of the House in a few days. MR. ANSTEY AND MR. SMITH O'BRIEN. Mr. A NSTE Y complained of certain letters written to him by Mr. Smith O'Brien on private business, since his expatriation, having been opened by Sir Wm. Denison, and gave notice that he should, on Tuesday next, move a resolution on the subject, the purport of which would be, that the matter wai one calling for the severest Scrutiny on the part of the Rouse. ARC no EXPEDITION. Mr. lIUME moved for an account of the charge for the purchase, repair, and outfit of the vessels now fitting for the Arctic expedition; and also a statement of all sums due or claimed by private builders for the building and alterations of tee Niegmrv, Greenock, and Simoom, and any other sums claimed for iron steam-ships for her Ma jesty's navy, specifying the names of the vessels and of the buildere, the price originally agreed upon, the price charged by the said builders, the sums paid on account by the Admiralty, and the balance now claimed.— Age eed to. COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SALARIES. Lord JOIIN RUSSELL rose and said he was now about to propose the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the salaries of offices held by Members of Parliament, and to consider the propriety of reducing them. There were various precedents for the appointment of Committees fur the purpose of inquiring into offices held during the pleasure of the Crown by Members of Parliament. In 1798 a Committee was appointed to in quire into many branches of the public service, and also, in 1828, a Committee which took into .its notice the propriety of reducing the military expenditure. In November cf 1830 Lord Al thorp proposed the appointment of a Committee to inquire into offices held during pleasure of the Crown, and in doing so he declared that though the Government were prepared to undertake any reduction which might be deemed expedient, yet he thought it better that there should be a Committee, composed of independent Mem bers, to inquires into the subject. The Committee of 1848, which had been appointed to inquire into the military expenditure, had also performed its duties in a manner highly creditable to itself and useful to the Government. He (Lord J. Russell) had postponed the Committee which he was at present about to move for, from a wish that various gentlemen of great experience and ability, who were engaged on the Com mittee of 1848, should be at liberty to take part in tsis Committee. With respect to the first object of this Com mittee, viz., to inquire into the salaries of persons holding office during pleasure under the Crown, several pro posals had already been made in a Committee which had had the miscellaneous estimates under its notice. At the same timd it would be recollected that frequent pro posals had also been made for the reduction of this branch of the public expendituie, either by reducing the salaries 10 per cent., or by diminishing the number of persons employed in each department. Yet it seemed better that any reduction of this kind should be decided upon by a Committee composed of independent Members of the House, than by the persons whose salaries it was proposed to inquire into. Lord Althorp, in moving his Committee, had stated that he did not think it desir able that the salaries of the high offices under the Crown should be reduced so low as to confine them altogether to persons of large private fortunes. With regard to the second part of the motion ho said, that when Lord Denman was appointed Chief Justice of the Queen's Bouch in 1831, he proposed to take a salary of 8,000/, but no regular decision had been come to by Parliament on the subject. It would be advisable, if the salaries of the Chief Justices of the Queen's Bench and of the Common Pleas were to be con sidered, that the salaries and retiring allowances of the other judges should likewise undergo investiga tion. There were besides other questions of great im portance connected with the judges of the courts of equity. Their salaries were considered by the Com mute° of 1798, and it was tit that they should again be considered by a Committee, as since that time many changes had taken place. The last part of the motion referred to the diplomatic establishments of the country;swhick were formerly defrayed out of the civil list; but since the alterations which separated them from being part of the expenses of the Sovereign's house hold, they had been placed on the Consolidated Fund. As nineteen years had elapsed since that separation took place it was desirable also that these establishments should be reconsidered by Parliament. In proposing, therefore, that there should be a Committee on these subjects, he intended that evidence should be taken before it with the view of asceitsining in what shape reductions could best be made. and he thought that at least one Member of the Government should have a seat on that Committee. The appointment of such a Committee was conformable to precedent, and it appeared to him in accordance with the general feeling of the House. He observed that Mr. Disraeli and Mr. Henley had motions similar in character, and presumed, therefore, that the question was as to the most convenient mode of instituting the inquiry. Mr. Disraeli, had, however, an amendment on the paper, to the effect that Government should at once introduce a measure for the reduction of salaries; but the Govern ment could not think it advisable to do so until the sub ject had been inquired into by a Committee. The Go vernment hag nut been unmindful of the propriety of carrying out reductions whenever they could, and within the last few years no less a sum than 2,284,0001. had been taken of the army, navy, and ordnance estimates. With regard to the civil departments, it certainly ap peared to him that the Government had far better means of making reductions, in point of detail, than any Com mittee of that House; and he thought that was proved by what had taken place witk regard to the inquiries instituted of late years both into the d-partments of the Treasury and the Home Office. So far as it appeared upon the general surface, it could not be said that there were any extravagant ap pointments in these offices, or that the salaries paid were exorbitant; but yet by a minute examination made by official persons it had been found possible to make con• siderable reductions in the departments he had mentioned. He could mention a few instances where reductions had been made. In the Treasury, two chief clerks, one senior, and four junior clerks had been abolished at a net saving of 5,3451. per annum. In the office of the Paymaster of the Forces, in the Ordnance, and in the Home-office savings had been effected of upwards of 23,0001., and at the same time, by removing some clerks from less use ful situations to posts in the offices where the duties were heavy, there, has been complete efficiency kept up in each office, and no want ,of attention to the general business of the country, so far as these offices were concerned, bad resulted from such reduction. With Y, the reductions which had been in of the last thi r ty y ears wer e very considerable c ind rr e se e ea indeed, since he found that in 1821 there were 38 persons ,holding offices in that department, receiving 42,9601. per annum. In 1830 the same duty was ,performed I by 29 persons , w ith a salary of 24,080/., and at the present time it appeared that the duties of the Treasury were performed for 25,000/. per annum, and considering the multafarious nature of these duties, and the important matters which the Treasury had to decide, he did not believe that there could be shown anywhere, either in Europe or in America, an example of duties being so well performed for so small a re muneration. It had been said the Treasury was no thing better than an Augean stable, which r e q uir e d cleansing; but in his opinion never were ther e p ubli c duties performed so zealously, and efficiently, and econo mically as those performed by the permanent officers engaged in the Treasury.—(Cheers.) At the same time, Government had considered it ne cessary to make a comparison between the salaries in establishments like the Bank of England, and paid to these officers, and those received by clerks en gaged in was bound to say that the result of comparison was very much in favour of the 'clerks employed in the Bank of England and such like establishments. He had mentioned what had been done with regard to the Treasury and the Home-office, but it shouli be remembered that still further reductions would be made from time to time, while, with regard to the Colonial•office, a similar inquiry to that he had mentioned as being made by official persons was going on which would also lead to reductions. Other reductions of late years had been made in the Customs, and that was financially called the Excise department. In those various departments there had been a reduction of 5,1001. a year. There were various other reductions which had been made in consequence of the inquiry which had been carried on officially at the Custom-house, and which amou nte d to no less a sum than 64,7911 a year. It was intended there should be a reduction of twenty-eight clerks in the office, which would be a further saving of 6,900/. odd. With regard to the Excise and Stamps establishment, that was formerly connected with the Board of Inland Re venue, and a large establishment of commissioners. The Inland Revenue boards consisted of 38 commissioners. The present board consisted of a chairman, a deputy chairman, and 6 junior commissioners; and there was a saving of salaries alone of upwards of 30,000/. a year. The reduction which bad been made within the last two or three years had likewise been very considerable, because when the Excise, Stamps, and Taxes, existed as two• separate boards, there were twelve commis sioners, two chairmen, two deputy chairmen, and eight junior commissioners, the united salaries of whom were 17,000/. a year. Compared with the former establish ment there was a saving of 5,6001. per annum. The secretary's salary had like% ise been re d uce d 1,500/., th e so l ic it or 's 2,000/., the reeeiver-ge neral's 1,200/., and the comptroller general's 1,000/. The distributors' poundage in Englaed and Ireland had also been reduced 37,1001. But beyond this he must state that in 1833 the number of persons employed was 9,033; the number emplo3e 1 last year was 7,009, being a reduction of 2,024. The amount of salaries in 1832 was 962,174/. ; it was now 715,0001., being a reduction of 247,174/. The last ac count that had been made showed a decrease, as compared with 1833, of 2,170 persons, and in the salaries of 259,670/., being more than a quarter of a million of money in that department. There had been from time to time various other reductions; but it had been thought desirable to effect those reductions with as little as possible of hardship to individuals. Now, he thought he should state, that in proposing this Committee he proposed it, as it might have been proposed in 1798, or in 1807, or in 1830, with reference to ale duties to be performed by those various officers, and not with the view, which certainly scene Gentlemen seemed to have ?a,l.:en very Ivarrel:-, the.; tltere was at present such a decrease in the cxpeoses which belonged to the office that it was poSsible, by some scale, to make :a sudden reduction of the salaries of all of us. The Comrni!t?.e would have to cousider not merely the price of corn, but also what was the reduction in all those expences which persons in public offices have to bear. He did not think that were many of those items which would Lear reduction. He held in his hand an ac count in detail the expense of a clerk - of 1501., and he did not think that there were many items in that which would bear reduction. There were various other subjects which a Committee would have to con sider if it were proposed to make a reduction upon the principle of prices. At the same time, he did not mean to say that as the general price of living was very much decreased, that might be taken into consideration; but he did think it desirable that that decrease should be taken on the standard of reduction. He was now about to conclude what be had to say with regard to the general proposition which he had to lay before the House; but before doing so, he would just allude to a proposition which had been made, that the public service would be better carried on if the persons holding office were altogether removed from Parliament. It was evident that such a proposal was qeite inconsistent with the mode of government in this country. Unless they had persons in Parliament to defend measures there which might be 'brought forward, it was quite evident that there would be no sort of har mony between the Members of the the two Houses of Parliament. They had an instance of this in the attempt which had keen made to carry on the business of the Poor-law Board without a Secretary of State for that department in the House to defend its measures. That had been altered, and under his late lamented friend, Mr. Charles Buller, and the present President, every complaint had been brought into Parliament, and satisfactorily answered, so that a much easier working of this branch had been perceptible since the introduction of the President of the Poor-law Board into Parliament. He merely mentioned this as an instance, for he never expected that any Com mittee would for a moment entertain the idea of re moving members of the Government from their seats in Parliament. He now left the question in the hands of the House, feeling certain that any general Committee would deal with it in a manner satisfactory to the interests of the country. The present members of the Government were merely tenants-at-will; but the Committee would have to consider the permanent interests of the country. The Noble Lord then concluded by moving the appoint ment of a Select Committee, to inquire into the salaries and emoluments of 'offices held during the plea sure of the Crown by Members of either House of Parliament, voted in the annual estimates; and also the salaries and emoluments of judicial offices in the supe rior courts of law and equity in the United Kingdom; and into the retiring pensions allotted to the judges; and also into the expense of diplomatic establishments charged on the Consolidated Fund. Mr. DISRAELI rose to move as an amendment to Lord John Russell's motion, " That this House is in possession of all the information requisite to revise and regulate public salaries; that Parliamentary Committees of inquiry under such circumstances would only lead to delay ; and that it is the duty of the Govern ment, on their own responsibility, forthwith to introduce the measures that may be necessary for effecting every reduction in the national establishments con sistent with the efficient discharge of the public service." He said that if he had not thought that this amendment which he was about to propose was one which, if adopted, would be for the honour of that House, and for the advantage of the public service, he should not have presumed to have addressed the House on the present occasion. He had listened with great attention to the speech of the Noble Lord, and he must say he was surprised at the general tenor of it. The only impression on his mind was this—why did the Noble Lord not persevere in that course which he had prosecuted so successfully? Why should he have asked a Committee of the House of Commons to discharge duties which, according to his own account, be had pro secuted so successfully?—(Hear, hear.) The state ment which the Noble Lord had made was rather a vindication of the principle which he (Mr. Disraeli) had laid before the consideration of the House than one which could at all authorise the present motion.— (Hear.) It was extremely difficult to extract anything like principle from the Noble Lord's statement, but he dealt very amply in the precedents which he thought justified the motion. He referred to the practice of sub• (flitting to a Committee of the House estimates for the public service, and reminded them that it bad been adopted by successive Governments with great public benefit. There was, bee ever an essential difference between the precedents to which the Noble Lord referred and the coarse which he proposed now to adopt. It was ♦ery true that this, as well as other Governments, referred the estimates for the public service to a Committee of the House ; but what were the estimates ? They were the embodied opinion of the Government on an important part of the public ervice; but the Government, under these ci:• cumstances, did not shrink from previously stating their opinions, yet he could not find that in the motion of the Noble Lord he had preferred any opinion whatever.— (Cheers.) He (Ir. Disraeli) was at a loss to know whether it was the opinion of the government that these particular branches of the public service were susceptible of any reduction or not. If it were the opinion of the Government that they were not, they were now playing with the House of Commons, and if, atter due investigation, proper inquiry, and mature reflection, they arrived at a result that they were susceptible of reduction, he asked the Government to give the House the result of their inquiry; let the House deal with it as it, in its wisdom, inigut deem best. But the precedents of the Noble Llrd appeared extremely infelicitous, Now, he would take the instance of 1831, namely, Lord Althorp's Cummitte.; of 1831—that Committee was ape pointed to inquire into the salaries and offices held by Nlewbers of both Houses c.f Parliament, but was that a precedent for the motion• of the Noble Lord? 'Admit, which he was not ready to do, that it was politic for a Committee of the House of Commons to inquire into this subject without having the opinion of the Mioisters upon it, how did the pre cedent of 1831 apply to this motion ? The duty of the Committee of 1831 was to in vire into salaries embraced in the estimates, but this Committee would have to inquire into salaries, emo luments, and pensions, which were received by Act of Parliament ; and, therefore, if the Committee come to a vote upon the subject of judicial and diplomatic salaries, emoluments, and pen sions, it must be entirely non-effective. To make such a vote effective, the Minister must intro duce a Bill, and if this Committee was to deal with the salaries, emoluments, and pensions of judicial and introduce a Bill now? In that case they would have the opinion diplomatic appointments, why did not the Ministers of the Ministers upon the subject, while if th e re were any details to be investigated, which means admitted, then the Noble Lord might he by no me move that it be referred to a Committee. In his amend ment, which the Noble Lord seemed to have mis understood, he expressed an opinion that the House was in possession of all the int? irmation necessary to decide and regulate public salaries; and to prove this he need only refer to the reports and papers which had already been laid on the table, and which the Noble Lord had made such use of. say, hioh in regardlobse observe to o the from repor t wliat of fell The Hon. Gentleman, in cont i nuat i on, said—Here I must the f h l e ro e m otn th m e Noble ittee of 1834, w Lord to-nigh, and from some express i ons of his the other night, showed the tone of his mind, that that report, in fact, forms the basis of the policy which I am now pur suing. I will call the attention of the House to the reason given by Lord Althorp for that inquiry into these Parliamentary salaries; and I will ask the House whe ther they consider that that is a satisfactory reason for the course proposed ? Now, it appears to me, that Lord Althorp, in the commencement of his speech when mov ing for this Committee, had laid it down—not as a matter of principle, bat as a matter of what I may call senti. ment—that there was an indelicacy in a Minister at tempting to settle the amount of his own salary; and the Noble Lord opposite has referred to that sentiment as ono that influenced him in the course he is now pursuing. I ask the House are they prepared to sanction that sen timental course of conduct. In my opinion there is no thing more dangerous in the conduct of public business than delicacy..—(lronical cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Ido not know what Hon. Gentlemen from their own experience may know on that subject, but in my limited experience I know that wherever de licacy was admitted into transactions of business I have always considerably suffered.—(Laughter) Sir, I do not think aiMinist , er ought to shrink from the performhnce of a public duty by telling us he considered it indelicate.—(Hear, hear.) For example, I think that there is nothing indelicate in an individual occupying the position of a Minister of the Crown looking not merely to his own interest but to that of his successors, acting boldly upon his own responsibility and upon his own knowledge, and proposing that which he thinks a fair remuneration for a . public servant.—(Bear, hear.) Considering well the interests of the public, and feeling the necessity of having the highest talent engaged in the public service, a Minister ought to feel no such deli cacy in settling the question himself. But Lord Al thorp, although I am willing to do jitstice to the great qualities of that eminent person, we must remember, was brought up in that exclusive Parliamentary system which flourished here from the period of the accession of the House of Hanover down to the year 1630, when we know that the Ministers of State, and those particular friends that sat near them, bore a particular relationship to each other. Lord Althorp, as Minister, may have ex perienced a peculiar delicacy in dealing with these sala ries, which we should not be told existed in a reformed House of Commons. lam of opinion that we have suf ficient information, in the first place, to revise and regulate all public salaries. We have that information, in my opinion, in the documents to which the Noble Lord opposite referred; in the series of roports which he has brought under our consideration; and in every report, and especially the more recent ones, submitted to us. These, in my mind, furnish a strong argument against the motion of the Noble Lord, and in favour of the amendment which I have the honour to bring under the notice of the House. But we have other information. We have every year the names of the persons and the salaries of all those public offices brought annually under our consideration. There is not an individual who filla any of those public offices whose name we do not know, and with whose salary we are not fully acquainted. Not only as Members of Parliament, but as men of the world, we cannot help being able to fotm an opinion founded upon that information which exists in our own archive,. We cannot help forming an opinion also on the nature of the duties those individuals fulfil. I want to know, then, if we agree to appoint a Committre, how we are to obtain more information? Will you ex amine the judges? The Noble Lord says, "of course, the Committee will have the privilege of summoning them before them." Will you examine" the judges in refer enco to the expenses of their circuits? Will you make theta prolece their tevtirn bills and their vouchers? Will you call eminent counsel before you and examine them as to their professional incomes? Will you summon their clerks to produce their fee-books? It is impas sible to contemplate anything so indecorous and it - discreet.—(Laughter.) But the Government has all this information, even from the beat sources—they hold confidential communication with the judges, and they could not offend the dignity of the highest magistrate in acting upon that information which they have so cau tiously obtained. The Government could acquire a knowledge as to the salaries and emoluments connected with all these offices from the most eminent members of the bar, by whom they are surrounded; and, mind you, the Government are a portion of the House, and that information of the Government is the information of the House. I will now refer to our diplomatic establish ment. How will you investigate into that subject? Will you summon the ambassadors from Constantinople, Vienna, and Paris? Will you have them brought over from the German courts to be examined, or will you ob tain that information in a mush more convenient and satisfactory manner ? Will you summon before you the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ? Ile will give you the most accurate and most complete in formation. You will thus have the advantage of ceiling with a Minister who is perfectly acquainted with all those details.—(Hear.) But suppose that instead of this evidence the Noble Lord would prepare a Bill on the subject, and introduce it into the House. We should have, in this case, more speedily and satisfactorily before us the advantkee of his knowledge and experi ence, and would be enabled to attain these results more quickly, which, as advocates of economy, and the effi ciency of the public service, we so much desire.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, in adverting to my resolution, has, I am sure from misapprehension, entirely miscon ceived the latter portion of it. He seems to think that in laying down an abstract declaration I have stated it is the duty of Ministers to introduce m-asures that may be necessary for effecting every reduction that is com patible with the efficient discharge of the public service, and I have ettempted to impress on the House that Ministers are guiltless of any attempt at reduction. Now the amendment I sin about to move is specifically irrespective of what Ministers have done in past times. I say, whatever reductions in these establishments it may be necessary now to accomplish, that it is their duty to come forward, and on their own responsibility to advise them. lam perfectly well aware that, in attempting to offer any opposition to a measure of this kind—which, though it comes forward in a plausible shape, I am in duced to believe that the House will consider it to have a very insidious teadency—l shall have great difficulty in arguing against a proposition which, on the surface, is flattering to the feelings of the Huse of Commons, which seems to delegate authority to the House of Com- MODS, and which seems to increase the power and authority of this assembly. All I seek to do is to ask the House well and wisely to consider whether the effect of the motion of the Noble Lord be really of that charac ter to which I have referred; whether it may not rather have the tendency to diminish our authority instead of increasing it. Now let us tea in what situation the House will be placed if we accede to this motion of the Go vernment. In the first place we have to deal with this Committee. I have not the smallest doubt that the Gentlemen who will compose that Committee will be worthy of that responsibility which will be entrusted to them. I will not say for a moment that it will be a packed Committee, because that would be coarse.— (Laughter.) All I will say of it is this—l think that it aill;oea well-arranged Committee.--(Renewed laughter.) It will, no doubt, be a Committee the majority of which would consist of Gentlemen who, from political feeling and private consideration, would have a lively sympathy with the policy of the Government...-(Hear, hr ar.) In that case it is very possible that those who are advocates for revision and retrenchment in the public establish lishments will not find that the Committee will come to a resolution very favourable to their views. But lot us advance to another part of the subject, and suppose that the Cotnuiittee will not only be a fair Committee —because all Committees we - must consider fsir— but absolutely a fair Committee. Suppose they come to a resolutio❑ which we have so much at heart, will it be a Committee which will be enabled to effect that which has reference to a very important and more serious portion of the motion ? Why, as I said More, this Committee ca❑ only come to resolutions, which will amount, in fact, to an opinion given by that Committee upon a statement of facts that are already before Par liament. There is another consideration which I think the House ought to weigh well before they accede to the motion of the Noble Lord. What I want to impress on the House is this—not to permit themselves to be led away by the- precedents of estimates which have been referred to Comittees. Ido not mean to take a pedantic view of the character and duties of the House of Com mons. I do not want to :put a sever con struction on the part of the constitution which defines the duties of the House of Commons, nor to refer to those duties as they were consi dered in the days of the Tudors and the Stuarts. On the contrary, I think it is a beneficial necessity that a great deal of the power of the State should be concen tred in this assembly. Ido not grudge the House ef Commons that power which we have over the public purse. On the contrary, I deplore of late years, parti cularly since the passing of the Reform Bill, that the powers of the House of Commons over the taxation of the country has considerably diminished.— (Hear, hear.) The House of Commons has now to deal with a comparatively small portion of the public expenditure. And for my own part, I regret to see that the sugar duties has ceased to be regulated by an annual vote.—(clear, hear.) Therefore it is not the authority of the House of Commons I am contending against, when I tell you that you will mike a grand mi,talte if you permit the Ministry to advise you to carry out this motion. What will be the situation of the Committee if they are even disposed to carry out the most sanguine hopes of reform? What will be the situation of the House of Commons under these circumstances? Hitherto it has been a principle of the constitution that we E hould not have the privilege of originating a tax. No private Member of this House has the privilege of proposing a vote of the public money. You bare teen the guar dians of the public purse and the critics of the public ex penditure, and in this respect you necessarily ocmpy a popular position. A Minister places these estimates he tore you in a manner so extraordinary that, if often in dulged in, would transfer the executive from Downing street to St. Stephen's; and he asks the House of Com mons to fulfil those popular functions, the exercise of which has made the House of Commons live so long in the affections of the community—be asks you to be the guardians of the public purse and the critics of the public expenditure. But what does he do now, when he places a blank leaf in your hands, and asks you to fill it up by the insertion of the amount which yeti think is necessary for the expen diture of the country, ift reference to peculiar establish ments? Why, he asks the tionse of Commons to tax the people—he invests you with the most invidious power--and hereafter, if these establishments should be called oppressive, the people cannot say it is the admi nistration, or Downing -street, or the Government of the country, that had cast these burdens upon them, but the House of Commons would be placed in the obnoxious po sition—the House of Commons, which the people ha ve hitherto looked upon as t h e guar dians of their treasury, who had saved them at all times from the fiscal extor tions of the executive.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, nothing can be more unconstitutional than the Government es caping from the responsibility which was incident to it . self by such a course.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time they cannot take a course which, if persisted in, is more calculated to diminish its authority and to lower the character of the House of Commons than that course which calls on the House of Commons to settle the amount of taxation. Now, I ask the House to consider what must be the conduct and what the inevitable consequences of this Committee, if you agree to the motion of the Noble Lord ? What ever may be the information we possess, and amply possess on all those subjects—whatever information the Government may possess irrespective of their position as Members of this House, if the Committee is appointed, one thing is quite clear—they must investigate de novo into all these details as if they had no previous know ledge of the subject, because nothing can be considered authentic or satisfactory to the country without a full and ..complete examination into a ll th ese ques ti ons . What will the Committee have to examine? It will have to examine into three subjects, which, if minutely ex amined into, would require three Committees instead of one. They will have to examine three subjects which would require a combination of knowledge in these Mem. bers, which, even in the House of Commons, this small number of persons could not supply. The man who would be best qualified to decide on the amount of sala ries to be received by Members of Parliament holding office under the Crown would be totally unfit to decide upon the question of judicial salaries; whereas a mart most competent to decide upon the latter would be ut terly lost if he entered into the complicated arrange ments connected with our diplomatic establisments. Well, then, what would be the necessary conse quence as regards the Committee? It would be a Nattering estimate to suppose that at the end of the ses sion they had concluded their ',hours. No one could suppose that this was possible. We would have on the tattle of the House the evidence given before the Com mittee at the commencement of the session of 1851; and then the Committee would ask leave to sit again. W e have certainly heard a great deal about the works of art that are to be exhibited in 1851, and great doubts enter tained as to whether our countrymen would be able to compete with foreigners ; but I think we could then ex hibit one production which no foreigner could match, and that would be the blue book that would emanate from this Committee.—(Laughter.) I swill, therefore, ask whether you, the Members of this House, who are anxious for revision and reduction, can consistently sup port a motion Oat must lead to this inevitable result ? —(Hear, hear.) It it do not, I will show you it will lead to worse. If the Government upon their own responsibility, furnished with all that informs.- tient upon the subject which by their position they possess, which is not in any degree possessed by the Members of the House generally—if they would come forward frankly und in a straightforward manner to express their opinions upon this question; if they would give us tie ad vantagl of their knowledge and ex perience, and at once introduce a Bill on these three sub jects, who can doubt but that the Noble Lord himself', who is a Member of this House for a period of 30 or 40 years, the turn of whose mind has been to make himself thoroughly acquainted with constitutional sub jects connected with tee House of Commons—who can doubt but that in one morning, if he chose, he could settle the whole question as to the propriety of revising the existing sell., of Parliamentary sAlaries—a question which would take a Committee months, and perhaps sessions, t.) firm any opinion upon.—(Hear, hear.) I have rOerred to the Noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown, and to the Noble L' , rd the Steretery of State. If the Noble and Learned Lord who presides in the other House would but propose a measure on this important question, with what promptitude the Go vernment might come to a full and satisfactory set ti rt went, and a dignified decision in respect to the judio'e salaries. Who is these who does not know how cola ,0, ' petent the Noble Vi scoun t t h e S ecretary of State w°ll be to decide a quest i on as to diplomatic services? Pi might have all tho se Bill s b roug h t i n at once; an d /ft is really the opinion of the Government that these r e. ductions should take place, they should have bee° brought in long ago—(Hear, hear)—when the st e p could have been t a k en i n a manner creditable to t h et a' selves and satisfactory to the House and the country (Hear, hear.) I have shown the House if they ar jointed this Committee what the consequences would! ) : as respects th e C omm i ttee themselves, and what w. inevitable consequence would be in respect to the lor a tion of the Members of this House. The Noble L or has referred to a mot i on made by the Hon. Member fo r Oxfordshire, and he has done me the honour of referricg to a notice of motion which I have given. Now, I ae o not, at this moment, a cqua i nte d w i th the details of WI proposition of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, but have the knowledge of his sincere and straightforWa,,, character. lam convinc e d tb at h e b as not taken up tit question in an idle and tritling manner. I know Ii has occupied his consideration for a considerable clod and I have knowledge of hi s b us i ness -lik e hab i ts se indomitable perseverance.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever may be the opinion of the House as to his proa°' sition, I earsiLet doubt but that it will b ° a well considered and a dignified propoeitio e ; (Hear, hear.) I ask you frankly, with 1,1)// chance of success will my lion. Friend the M em ber fat Oxfordshire introduce fur your consideration a measur e which he intim a t e d l as t y ear , an d w hi c h , no dou b t, ia e interval, has been most seriously considered and o) , e ! v Lured, if you aff o rd th e Fi rs t Mi n i ster o f t h e Crews Oa pretext for saying, after he has sat down, that them ill:, Commi tee appointed u p s t a i rs t o i nqu i re i nto the tit ject, and ther, f o re n o p ro p os iti on o f the ki nd cou ld 1 , listened to. Could you f or a moment h ave f anc i e d , k was for the honour of th e H ouse o f C ommons or the ir terests of our constituent s t o su pp or t ti e motion o f tb e First Minister of the Crown when you reflect upon consequence on the conduct of independent Merobett ri Can you for a moment make up your mind to suppe' e a motion which, if it b e n o t unconst i tut i ona l i n i ts or tgl ,, as it will be in its rosette, must prove most hostile h t; Parliamentary ind e p en d ence . ( H ear, hear.) ht; Noble Lord h a s ad ver t e d to a not i ce o f m i ne on the tay'l of the House. Il e m i g h t taunt me with the fact abet the notice was gi ven a d ay a f ter h i s own notice 110 given. I can assure y ou , Si r, that that was a caitiaili arising from my sudden and constrained absence.! (Cheers.) The Honourable Member for Montrose aware that, many w at Its More, I mentioned t o him tb it was my intention to bring forward this motion. now, Sir, I will say one word with respect to my mad e in bringing forward the motion of which I gave n otice ,; I do not wish now t o en t er i nto any di scuss i on as to causes that have produced, in letter years, in this coil ! ' try, that which may b e cal l e d an i mpat i ence of taxatile and that which cert a i n ly did not ex i st some time ago . 17 4 not want to bring any elements of controversy into discussion to-ni g h t w hi c h d o not properly b elong to I; but I think that Gentlemen on both sides of the Hoag wilt readily ad m it th at t h ere i s a d es i re on the par t e{ , their constituents th a t a great economy i n the adinio''' tration of our affairs should be forced upon the Gofer went. This, it will b e a d m i tte d , i s a very genera l fee' iog.—(Hear, hear.) Now, I felt it to be my d u ty t o or pose measures which, upon their surface, bore the si r pearance of being extensive reductions in the public es, penditure. I did o pp ose t h em — f i rst, because I .per ceived that they wer e f oun d e d upon the unphilosor,' bm a is that the expenditure of a great emp i re should Irg regulated at any 'arti cu l ar moment b y what m i ght bar! been but the necess a ry and sufficient expenditure in 1 )5 , 0 times. I opposed them, s e con dl y , b ecause they Yin propositions of a vas t c h aracter, and because Pole, refrained from en t er i ng i nto any d eta i ls.— (ge . hear.) I conceived them to be unwise, or if al t e f to be utterly impossibl e . I a l ways h ave beeo to, opinion that if redu c tions i n our e , ta bli s h ments are to 0 effected, they must b e p ro p ose d b y t h ose w h o are ma ste of the details in th e p ar ti cu l ar b ranc h o f the serv i c e 0 which the reduction is sought, before they can be right', brought for investigation by t hi s H ouse, and w h en LI are so proposed, th en th ose w h o su b m i t them may e, with confidence upon this House to support thelot e , (flew., hear.) Such was my feeling in placing that tice on the paper which the Noble Lord has referred t 7p I was very willing t o h ave seen t h e quest i on take ° by the Government. I was even in hopes that it 10 . ° , 4 1 be so; and when th ere were rumours that praatl-b; measures of reform and retrenchment were to be brody forward by the Government, I, feeling that the mats! which 1 had att em pt e d t o grapp l e w i th was one of cee, siderable difficulty, did hope th a t it wou ld b e t a ker:l by the Government ; b u t it was not.—(Bear, hear.) !+' 0„1 I then ventured to give that notice, not unconscious e , the difficulties I h a d t o con t en d w i t h . I k new that Ito! thing could be more irk some t h an to propose a reft./fO, in any particular bran c h o f th e p u bli c serv i ce, Parttetto larly when that proposition came from a Member io ea Opposition, or from one w h o was not connecte d with go Government, or who w as th at w hi c h i s ca ll e d a ttl'a Member of Parliament. Now, the diplomatic ser vice e g one which is very generally referred ta, and respec t/ b ig which there is a very general idea that cons iderst o; retrenchments might be made, an d t hi s too w i t h a , 'e i regard to the public service. But then, as to the , 0 0 tails, we are not so famili ar w i t h t h em as w i t h t" which are connected with our domestic service, . 0 11 4 therefore many o f t h em h ave, i n po i nt of fact, escaeri• criticism. I w as , th en , well aware of the extreme n a e, culty of meddling with that branch of th e public sell'fi-% I do not desire to s p ea k o f myself. I am only eesettw",e the ft min gs of any g ent l emen i n my position. I itIIIO that amonest the difficulti es t o b e overcome, I ha" I encounter first of all that of official informatiu o .o knew that next I h a d t o encounter a Minister unr i va l , in his acquaintance with the details of his office' I (Hear.) These, th en , were f ear f u l o dd s; and , ask, is there to sustain a man under such circuusste7,o next to the honour of at airing public distinction? Lai the belief in the generous sympathy of men oil , 7, - 0 1t sides of the House—it is the belief that they will 'w a y with ence on any slight errors that may be to n ed i II by a Member under such circumstancer, and that t will support him if he is right.—(Cheers.) I ask 1 3 what possible chance of success could I have on *Teo, question if I have not on l y to encounter official intcll,ol ation, not only an abl e an d accomplished Minister, /0 have also to appe a l, as I s h ould then have to do, if, ital motion of the N o bl e L or d b e adopted, to an emasett°,,e Assembly—(Cheer s )—th a t h as delegated all its ,' Lions to another Chamber, sitting in another plac"01 (Hear, hear.) Why, th ere would b e no chance f e though the great body of the Members may vote. ro forma here, still as to that vote effecting a reduoti oo o , the public expenditu re , re ly upon i t i t would be in reo, and it will be nothin g more th an a moc k ery and a t1.91)1 sion.—(Cheers.) I ha ve h ear d w i t h great regret th:y has been said that this m o ti on o f m i ne i s not a fit Lion. I have heard with v er y great regret that Go" 01, men have said, that though they approved of the 0 0 4 went they cannot support it, because it is " a P e e d movement." That is a very d angerous an d a 1 tt vague phrase, and Gentlemen should well consider o f before they allow their conduct to be influence 4 le t such a motive, and permit it to have a control f e o their behaviour.—(He a r, h ear .) l am not one of tl'oot who deprecate party connex i ons . A s l ong as we Pee a Parliamentary con s tit u ti on , I thi n k part i es are 014 sary; for without parti es , a representat i ve ass ail o a might degenerate into the most corrupt of governoie to l —(Hear.) .I wish to see r ev i ve d t wo great parties, five think they are for the ad van t age o f t hi s realm. if however, is not the opinion of many Gentlemen to e eil House. They have d ec l are d th at t h ey d o not apPriir of party connexion; they p ro f ess t h emse l ves as the Peil titular representatives of p o p u l ar i nterests. Th e y " 0 0 us on every occasion that party connexions are the c t u t# of the great evils of thi s coun t ry . I s h a ll now he; eft prised if many of these Gentlemen vote agaio e ' r lf amendment of which they approve'because it is a P e al movement.—(Cheers.) It ever t h ere was an amen ai d° 3 o et that entirely arose from th e b us i ness papers of the o°lol this is the one, an d I am at a loss to discover any 'of could so purely arise from it. Had it not been for elt motion of the Hon. Member for Oxford and others/de, whatever side of the House they sit—motions well oti serving the consideration of this House —this motion bi the part of the Government would not have been brat, forward. Had it not been fcr that motion the 110 0 0 merit would never have been brought forward-^ 4 ; e s which has now been brought to d e f en d th e i n d epe nded of the House of Commo ns aga i ns t a Mi n itted mar ceuvre.—(Cheers.) Wh a t th e f ate o f t h e amend may be it is not for me to decide upon; but I can tol s , 1 bringing it forward, that I have p ropose d i t beetto e t as sincerely believe that, if adopted, it will sustain' • ° 0 honour of this-House—the cre di t o f t h e adm i n i s tra' o f itself ; but, above all, it will conduce to the welfare the public bervice.—(Cheers.) Upon the question being put, the l Sir B. HALL, i n support i ng t h e mot i on, declared 10 he would hav e d es i red to see the inquiry extendnAae all branches o f t h e pu bli c serv i ce, and especially it intermediate officers in the public departments; ° t ot was they, and not th e great officers of the State, a l e were overpaid. He would have an inquiry itit o oo l ' services and payment of every officer paid above a year. Mr. HUME supported the am en d men t. A n 10 etr -. re' by public committees resulted in no good. Their or commendations were never carried into effect unless be t proved of by the G o v e rn men t. He pointed to c eir had occurred with committees in recommending t hf3 ioo' station of reductions with the navy and army pronlot„o' and yet, in defiance of these recom men d a ti ons , the Y e e , motions were continued. Th e y h a d now , i n the 0 10 f dices to the ordnance and navy es ti ma t es materialsbad bringing down every unnecessary ex p en di ture io . and departments. So tar these reports were invaluabl e ' bf every hour they would tell for th e p u bli c interest c ad pointing out how and where reducti ons m i g h t b e c !oft° —(•' Hear, hear" from Lerd J. R usse ll)—b u t n o o at to the Government.—(Cheers.) The only strong F t be which wes pressed by either of the reports was I ° a rt, report of the Committe e on th e navy est i ma tes, /0 tnat te as a red t ction of the number of adottrals' is . 0 3 present they saw men w h o had retired from the half-pay he did not know how many years; CO° "he be had stat e d w h a t was th e amount o f h a lfsPaJ'oo: thought he should be warranted in saying that th e ,,aiee vernment had tehaved extremely ill, and had not 0 7 18 0 the interests of the community.—(Hear, hear.) I °, le poi who n the finance Committee sat up stairs, the ba ce 'J t 0 was 876,000/. Up to 1840 it was gradually red ° , , oo o " 762,000/.; and from that period to this it was 7 31 60 To leave it to Ministers to effect reductions updo t JD ports of committees, was, therefore, in his °pints:o9 4lo W use.—(Hear.) In 1834 ho (Mr. Hume) was tho .. ` . 'i t tee, man of a Couttnittee on lighthouses; and that Co , lou' re aet recommended in the strongest possible manner te w i l ica of the shit ping interest from the heavy charges w e be" the lighthouses inflicted upon them. At that 0 % tbif, twcen 300,000/. and 400,0001. annually was levied / tip shape of light dues, and applied in various waY,°:im, c lass in spite of the report of the Committee, not a singl e 010 was done, except with reference to one reconl fla n , fain th were ti ber for care w. DO u se. . before huPPo: Could , to and Geutle t mittee Sear; t Were he In and rig . Sit t o c fault, a bear.) the H, . r penal colonies received the greatest benefit from the system of sending convicts to them from this country. In proof of that, he need appeal to no other or no more satisfactory evidence than that of Sir Richard Burke, the late Gevernor of New South Wales, who Laid that he was induced to set a high value on the employment of convict labour in the formation of a new colony, inasmuch as in New South Wales, by the aid of convict labour, the industrious inhabitants had been enabled, within a period of fifty years, to convert a wilderness into a flourishing colony. And in regard to the moral conduct of those convicts, he gave it as his opinion that not only had transportation contributed to the good of the colony, but had led to the moral improvement of the convict; themselves in as great a degree, as far as his observation had gone, as could have been effected in any penitentiary in England or in Ireland. After what had been said as to the abandonment of transportation by the Government, he did not wonder that the inhabitants of some of the colonies now stood out in condemnation of the system; and he could not but state that, unless they placed the system on a new footing, it would be impossible to carry it on. It was said there was no re luctance in the inhabitants of Western Australia to re ceive convicts, but that was doubtful. But supposing there was no doubt about the matter, the colony could not recive all the convicts which would be sent from this country. Bat then they were told that Van Diemen's Lind would teeeive a large portion of them, although he did not believe that with the facts they had before them with respect to the feeling of that colony, that the inhabitants would submit to have it made the receptacle of the whole convict population cf this country. They had the example of the Cape as an evidence of what, a determined resist ance to the lair could effect, and of that they would be most apt to take advantage. He regretted that the opi nions of the inhabitants of the Cape had been yielded to, as he believed it would be attended with most fatal re sults to the Government. If, however, they were deter mined on curtailing the number of convicts sent abroad, they were bound to employ them in a proper manner in this country, and to give them sufficient accommodation. Now, what was the case in this respect so far as Ire land was concerned ? In the gaol of his own county, there were, during last year, while cholera was making its ravages over the land, from 100 to 200 prisoners dis tributed over 15 cells. In the Cork gaol, which contained accommodation for 500, there were 1,549 prisoners con fined at one time ; in Galway gaol, which contained ac commodation fur 112, there was confined at one time 1,075 ; and in the course of last year the mortality in that gaol was 450. That was a state of things which ought not to exist; and while the Noble Lord (Stanley) had said that to employ those convicts on public works in this country would not suffice, as those works would have an end, but in these colonies there was an inexhaustible field in which to employ the labour of their convicts, and he was, therefore, against any diminution in the transportation of convicts to them, conceiving the system to be for the benefit of those colonies, as well as that of the convicts themselves. Earl GREY said, as regarded the Irish prisons, he wished to state, that while he did not deny that there was in some of these a deficiency of accommodation, in consequence of the great increase of convicts during the past two years in that country; yet, in each year since the present administration came into office, there hai been a larger number of convicts sent out of the country than there had been during many years preceding. At the same time the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had done all that lay in his power to increase the means of disposing of those convicts. An establishment had been formed on Spike Island, where from twelve to fourteen hundred convicts were stationed, while there was also a penitentiary established on the model of Pentonville put into operation. In fact, more could not have been done than had been done to meet the large increase of the convicts which had taken place in that country. As to the general question, he had listened to the debate which had taken place upon it with much satisfaction, as, considering the opposite opinions held by those who had taken part in it, he was led to regard what had been stated as favourable to the system which Government had adopted. Two Noble Lord:, who had taken part in the debate, had objected to transportation altogether, while the Noble Lord who had last spoken was for carrying it out to the fullest extent. He was not prepared to deny bat that some evils had arisen by sending convicts in large numbers to the penal colonies, but still those evils had been greatly exaggerated, and if they compared them with those which would have existed under a different mode of secondary punishment, ho did not doubt but that the balance would have - been in favour of trans portation. He had the example of other countries, France, for instance, as to the evils which were likely to arise from keeping a large number of convicts in this country; and when he stated that there were at the pre sent time 48,000 individuals in the Australian colonies, of which the great majority were honestly earning their livelihood, who had been sent out there as convicts, but who, had they remained in this country, would he be lieved, almost in spite of themselves, have been compelled to live aiscriminals. No better argument could be advanced in favour of sending convicts to such places. The fact was, that South Australia never could have risen as it had done had it not been for the convicts sent to it. Transportation, then, ought not to be abandoned, but he believed that the most penal part of the sentence of trans portation ought to be inflicted at home. It was admitted on all hands, that there were means for carrying out that portion of the sentence at home which there was nut in the colonies. It was true some Noble Lords had con tended that the works at home on which convicts were employed would cease in the course of a few year?, one Noble Lurd having urged, that as the Portland works would soon terminate, some other mode of employment for the convicts there engaged ought to be sought after, but the great bulk id' the building.: of Portland being all wood, could he removed, if necessary, while the quarries at Portland being almost inexhaustible, and composed of an excellent quality of stone, which one of the cathedrals of that city could exhibit, the convicts could be employed there in raising those stones, which were in great repute fur buildings throughout the king dom. The Noble Lord who last addressed the House had recommended the employment of those convicts on large works in the colonies; but" after the frightful scenes which had taken place in Nev South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, from the employment of convicts in gangs on public roads or other public works, he would decidedly deprecate having recourse again to any such expedient. The system had led to scenes of demoralisation the most abandoned, and he believed that unless on a small ,scale, and in limited numbers, they could not be so employed, if sent out there at once. Much might be done afterwards when they had passed through the ordeal of home training, and when they could be sent out on tickets of leave to live in particular districts of the colony, and be employed in the formation of roads and other improvements, then much good might be effected by them, and Government was at present considering a plan how they could be best lo cated to effect that object. There were no doubt great difficulties in the way, but he had no hesitation in saying that those difficulties would soon be diminished, as he was certain that in a few years there would be a larger field for the disposal of their convicts in the colonies than there was at present. The Noble Lord alluded also in favourable terms to the plan of having a separate colony in North Australia, consisting entirely of convicts. Now he (Earl Grey) dissented entirely from that, because it would be a colonisation exclusively of convicts; whereas the safety of a colony depended on mixing those per sons, after some time, with free settlers. The object of that was, that it should be a colony of convicts removed from Van Diemen's Land and settled in North Aus tralia. Lord STANLEY observed that they were to hold tickets of leave. Earl GREY believed that that circumstance made no difference whatever, fo'r they should start with con victs only; there were to be no free settlers, no capi talists to give them employment; they were to be main tained at the first onset at the expense of the British Treasury; and if it were necessary to have recourse to such expenditure, why remove them at all? He had no objection to leave them to find their own way from Van Diemen's Land with tickets of leave, and obtain em ployment in the adjacent colonies, but h e did object bjectto any system which set out by planting any c exclu sively with such persons. It had been said that they could not dispose of their convict population under the arrangements now in course of progress; but the mis chief foemerly was, that they sent out those persons too rapidly, and did not take proper measures to prevent those frightful evils which afterwards followed. In the first place, by the old system, the territorial reve nue of the colony was taken away, leaving no means of employing convicts on useful or profitable public Works. These regulations were now altered. No charge was, in , the first place, made for convict labour employment on useful works beyond the charge of their mere superintendence; the consequence of which was, that Sir W. Denison was at that moment constructing bridges, making public roads, and other public improvements in Van Diemen's Land, and a fund kept up at the same time to defray the expenses which fell on them. He (Earl Grey) for one, regarded all the sums of money received for the sale of land, not as revenue for the ordinary expenses of a colony, but money which ought to be expended in public improve ments, and that land ought not to b e g i ven a s a free gift, Cut exposed for sale, lest it should fall into the bands of men who would not turn it to the best account. If land were given for nothing it. would no doubt fall into the hands of those Who could not use it properly.— (Hear. hear.) At the conclusion of the late war, grants of laud were given in New South Wales to settlers, on condition of their taking and employing a certain num ber of convicts. That system was carried out under Lord Bathurst with the most complete success, and the regulations now about to be proposed would be, as far as circumstances permitted, of a similar character. Then, with regent! to Western Australia, it Ras no doubt a small colony, but one possessed of great natural advantages, having abundauce of timber, cotton, cattle, and a great variety of food, and when con vict labour was employed on roads, in the erection of bridges, and other public improvements, he firmly be lieved Western Australia would afford a gradually in creasing field to convicts. He (Earl Grey) was averse to large establishments of penal convicts ; he believed, however, they [night be conducted with advantage, on a limited scale, by having public works carried on with the aid of convicts with tickets of leave. Dispatches had been laid on their Lordships' table, that evening, from Van Diemen's land, showing that the colony was as era be p i l D o g ym ent in every apartm e nt — t h a t d C a t d t iA shipry i V bas building findingwas rising car riedrapfelly— on to a large extent—and also a trade of great im portance in the export of timber—steamers were con stantly ruuning from Van Diemen's Land to the ad joining col on i e s, in which men who obtained a con ditional pexdon could go in search of employment , and that als o was an inducement for men who possesvd tickets of leave to obtain tickets of pardon. With regard to the resistance which may be expected in Van Die naelfa Laud, he (Earl Grey) - regretted extremely that his Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) said so much as an encouragement to such an opposition. He, however, did not anticipate any such thing; this objection to the re ception of convicts was now much less than in 1846, and it was a most unfounded assertion to make, th©t the Go vernment was in fault, in exciting that opposition by the language which had been used. He himself believed that the fteiing among the cflonists against the reception of convicts arose from the system of road gangs which pre vailed, for before its introduction the feelings of the peo ple of Van Diemen's Land was in favour of their being sent among them. Lord STANLEY said that transportation to New South Wales was put an end to before the system of road gangs was introduced. Earl GREY continued to observe that the plan of having road gangs was no new thing, and it was from the abuse of the system they felt they were justified in opposing the reception of convicts altogether. He was, however, bound to say, that Parliament would not be justified to yield in such a matter hastily to the people of Van Diemen's Land, on such a subject. It was not with them as with the people of the Cape, which was at all times a free colony, and into which, without the con sent of the inhabitants, it would be unjust to tend a con vict population. It was, however, otherwise with Van Diemen Land ; many millions of money were ex pended in making it fit f ir convicts, and the free settlers had no right to complain now of its existence among them. He, for one, believed the authority of the Crown and of Parliament ought not to be set aside by those to whom free institutions were given ; and although, cer tainly, it was the duty of the Government at home not to send out any which might be injurious, they bad a right to expect, and to insist on, sending convicts tht re and not to be driven to seek in another part of the world, at a vast expense, another penal colony. The Bill was then read a third time and passed. CASE OF MR. C. NASLI. Earl GRANVILLE, who spoke in so low a tone as to be utterly inaudible, after having exonerated Mr. C. Nash from any intention of committing a fraud upon the House by the course he pursued on a late occasion, moved that ho be called to the bar and reprimanded. Mr. C. Nash then appeared, and after stating various additional reasons in exculpation of his conduct, and as a justi&cation of the course he pursued, Lord CAMPBELL, being stated on the Woolsack and covered, said—Charles De Lacy Nash, the miscon duct by which you have incurred the displeasure of the House is that of having made a return which you were not required to make, and of having made it without the authority of the railway company to which you professed to be secretary. The House has hopes that you were not actuated in this matter by any fraudulent or malicious motives; but at the same time the House has had reason to be greatly dissatisfied with your conduct, it being cal culated to mislead the House, and to do injury to the company of which you are considered to have been an offieer. The House has resolved that you be repri manded, and you are reprimanded accordingly, and dis charged. Their Lordships then adjourned. -4as HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 12. The SPEAKEIt took the Chair at Four O'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following Bills were read a second time and passed :—Dublin and Belfast Junction Railway; London derry and Enniskillen Railway. The Colonization Assurance Company Bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to. The Croydon and Reigate Turnpike Road Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. PETITIONS. Mr. HUTT presentel a petition, praying for an in quiry into the loss sustained by parties in consequence of the Danish blockade. Mr. FOX MAULE presented some petitions from places in Scotland against Sunday labour in the Post office; also a petition from Edinburgh against the Mar riage Bill. Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition from the Ge neral Assembly of the Church of Scotland against the Marriage Bill. Mr. BECK ETT presented two petitions from Leeds against Sunday labour i❑ the Post•otfice. Mr. COMPTON presented a petition from Titchfield against the duty on bops. Mr. W. PATTEN presented several petitions from various places in Lancashire against the Marriage Bill; a petition from Comae in favour of the extension of the jurisdiction of county courts ; a petition from Charley against the Highway Bill; and a petition from Whitehaven in favour of the extension of the County Courts Act. Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from Mid dlesborough against the duty on malt. Colonel DUNNE e resentredi petition from Queen's County against tie advertisement duty. Mr. FLOYDIt presented a petition from a place in Dorset against Sunday labour in the Post-office; also two petitions from Halifax in favour of the County Courts Extension Bill. Mr. AGLIONBY presented a petition from Hertford in favour of the Enfranchisement of Copyholds Bill; also several petitions from places in Northumberland in favour of international arbitration. Colonel SIBTHORP presented a petition from Lin coln against Sunday labour in the Post-office. Mr. E. LOCKHART presented a petition from the proprietor, editor, and printers of the Border Advertiser newspaper, Galashields, North Britain, in favour of a repeal of the tax now levied upon newspaper advertise ments. Mr. SADLIER presented a petition from the pro prietors, printers, and publishers of tho Carlow Sentinel newspaper to th• same effect. Mr. GRENFELL presented a petition from the pro prietors, printer, and publisher of the Preston Chronicle newspaper to the same effect. Mr. W. EVANS presented petitions from places in Derbyshire i❑ favour of the County Courts Extension Bill, against the Highway Bill, in savour of the Bill for secular education, and against Sunday labour iu the Post-office. Sir C. BRUCE presented several petitions from places in Elgin against Sunday labour in the Post-office; also a pet►tion from the same county in favour of protect.on to agriculture. Mr. PETO presented a petition from Greenwich against church-ra , es, and a petition from Norwich in favour cf the Bill for secular education. Mr. S. CRA WFORD presented a petition from a place in Ireland against the Bill introduced by the Go vernment with respect to tenant right. Mr. GOULBURN presented a petition from Bexley against Sunday labour in the Post office. Lord DRUMLANRIG presented a petition from Dumfries against Sunday labour in the Post-office, and a petition from Langholm against the Marriage Bill. Sir J. TROLLOPE presented a petition from Boston against the Highway Bill, and a petition from the same place in favour of the Bill for the rating of small tene ments. Mr. WAWN presented a petition from South Shields against the Mercantile Marine Bill. Lord DUNCAN presented a petition from Ashton under-Lyne, and other places in Lancashire, praying for a repeal of the window-tax. Mr. COBDEN presented nine petitions from places in Wiltshire in favour of a Ten Hours' Factory Bill; also a poligon from the same county against church-rates. Lord H. VANE presented a petition from Stockton• upon• Tees against church-rater, and a petition from Derby in favour of county financial boards. Mr. BANKES presented a petition from a place in Dorsetsbire against church-rates, and seven petitions from Colne, and other places in Lancashire, in favour of a Ten Hours' Factory Bill. Mr. COWAN presented several petitions from places in the county of Edinburgh against Sunday labour in the Post-office, and against the Marriage Bill. Lieutenant Colonel BOYLE presented a petition from Frome against the,punishment of death; also a petition from Lord Abergavenny against the Copyhold Enfran chisement Bill. Mr. 0. DUNCOMBE presented several petitions from places in the West Riding of Yorkshire complain ing of agricultural distress. Mr. EWART presented a petition from Dumfries against the Marriage Bill. Mr. A. STAFFORD presented a petition to the same effect. Mr. HUME presented a petition from Arbroath praying for the repeal of the taxes on knowledge. NOTICES OF MOTION. Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice that on Monday he should move that the return ordered in the eiirly part of the session relative to the expenditure on Royal Pa lates be forthwith laid on the table. Mr. CHARLES LUSHINGTON gave notice that on Monday he should move f or cop i es o f a ll corres p on d ence which has passed between the Dean and Chapter of Rochester and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners since the 29th of January on the subject of the allowance made to the scholars of Rochester Cathedral. - METROPOLITAN SEWERS. Sir B. HALL wished to asked the Noble Lord the Chairman of the Metropolitan Commission of Sewers, whether the Commissioners had determined upon any principle of drainage for that part of the metropolis north of the Thames, and if the outfall is to be in that river; also, whether tke Giminissioners intend to levy any additional amount of rate on the inhabitants of the metropolis, and, if so, what amount of rate in the pound they propose to levy for the current year. He also wished to know whether it was the intention of the Commis sioners to make any report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the subject. Lord EBRINUTON must demur to the title which the Hon. Baronet had honoured him with. It was quite true that when he had attended the meetings of the Commissioners, Cie Commissioners had gone rally done him the honour of voting him into the chair, but he must disclaim the title of being considered the permanent chairman of the board. With regard to the question which the lion. Baronet had put to him, he could only state that the drainage and outfall of the sewers of the metropolis had been and was still under the serious consideration of the Commis sioners. So soon as the works had been agreed upon by the Commissioners the public would have notice. He could only say the Commissioners would have the power to levy whatsoever rates were necessary for the due exe cution of the work, but those rates would be made easy of payment by being spread over a number of years. BOARD OF HEALTH. Sir BENJAMIN HALL asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when tha report from the Board of Health would be presented, in order:that a time may be fixed for the second reading of Bills for alf , rding a batter supply of water to the met:opolis. Sir GEORGE GREY thought the report would bo ready in about three weeks. STAMP DUTIES BILL. In reply to a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, as to whether or not the Chancellor of the Exchequer was disposed to postpone the Stamp Duti , ?s Bill, The CHANCELLOR of t h e EXCIIEQ UER t said he thought there was no nec ess ity for any , fui•ther concilia tion, with parties affected by this J3iII, because the - rai do, sat fai