The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, April 18. lb** Lordships met at Fire o'clock. 1,14 Earl. of BAND - ON presented several petitions from thd' county' of. Cork against the It.layrisotii and +he system of edheation in Ireland. The Duke of RUTLAND presented a petition from the farineits'of the county of Leicester, praying to be relieved from the, prejeiit - agrialtural distress. The Noble Duke also pre seeffea a-petitfouirina the Malvern Agricultural Society, pray ini?of 3 eipar df the milt-tax; and several petitions from the comity of Leicestefigiiiist any further grant to Maynooth. 4.oth CAMPBELL presented several petitions l oftaganst any further grant to Maynooth, and a petition in favour em peance. The Bishala of DU RHAM presented several petitions against the grant to Maynooth. The Right Rev. Prelate said he did not share in the apprehensions expressed by the petitioners. He did not think the petitioners understood the correct bearing of the question, but he was satisfied great credit was ditto to the Government for introducing this measure. The Duke of CLEVEL IND, and the Earl of WICKLOW, also preSelsted similar petitions against the grant. SEES OF ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR. Earl POWIS said that last year he had introduced a Bill for preventing the union between St. Asaph and Bangor, bat after the second reading, under the advice of friends, be had withdrawn it, in consequence of an intimation that her Majesty's Government would oppose its further progress. He had this year introduced another Bill for the same purpose, and it stood for the second reading on Tuesday, the 29th. The question he wished to ask was, whe ther it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to inter pose, by preventing her Majesty's assent, and hinder the Bill from passing? The Duke of WELLINGTON, in answer to the question of the Noble Lord, said that Ministers had not received her Majesty's permission to state that she would give her con sent to this Bill. Earl POWIS said that on Monday he would state what course he intended to pursue. His course would be different, in consequence of the intimation which their Lordships had just heard, to what he had intended, but on Monday he should be able to state what he thought it best to do. In the mean time he would remind their Lordships that the second reading stood for Tuesday, the 29th. The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions against the union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bargor, and expressed his regret that Ministers were opposed to the Bill of the Noble Lord. MAYNOOTH. Petitions were - presented against the grant to Maynooth by the Marquis of BREADALBANE from Glasgow and several other towns in Scotland, and also from a great number of the con gregations of the Free Church in that country. Petitions were also presented against the grant by the Duke of Rienaloien from Elgin, Matlock, Inverness, and several other places. IMPROVEMENT OF LAND IN IRELAND. The Duke of RICHMOND moved for a return of the num ber of applications that had been made to the Court of Chan eery in Ireland for grants for the improvement of lands under the 3d and 4th of Victoria.—The return was granted. BANKING SYSTEM OF SCOTLAND. The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions against any alteration in the present system. RAILWAYS. Lord BROUGHAM, in moving the printing of the standing orders which he had brought under the notice of the House, said that he wished, as a warning to railway directors and companies, to state a case of gross recklessness, with which, after they had obtained their Bill, the directors of a company had ruined their own project, and lost the money of their shareholders. He should state neither names or places. The railway was connected with one of the largest railways in Eng land, and the facts were these. An estate had been bequeathed to a very learned and excellent lawyer as a trustee. The railway possessed the power of constructing works, and entering upon lands with very inadequate compensation to the owners in all the parishes named in the schedules. They thought proper to make a deviation into another parish, which was not in the schedule. As the works proceeded, it was thought necessary to make a deviation into another parish that was not named in the schedule. The agents of the com pany went to the occupiers of the land, and, offering them four times its value, induced them to give their consent to the deviation. But those persons who gave their consent were merely tenants for life, and they had no power to give it. The land was vested in the learned person I have named, who was the trustee of certain infants, and he consequently could not content without an Act of Parliament. The company ought to have stepped for another year, but it would not suit them, and they went on and finished the railway. Now he need not remind their Lordships of the situation in which the poor shareholders were placed by the act of their Board of Directors. They had invested their capital in this railway, never dreaming that such an act of plunder would be com mitted by the directors, more especially as those directors had the assistance, no dOubt, of a solicitor and standing counsel. This was a new form of risk which railway speculators did not anticipate, and he trusted this warning would prevent private individuals, who scraped together a little money, from risking it in these gambling Tpeations. NEW cul ZEALAND. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE wished to put a question to his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies, relative to a petition of which he had given notice yesterday. The peti tion was from the Legislative Council of New South Wales, and complained of certain grievances with respect to the dis posal of land in that colony. He understood that it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to lay some papers bearing upon this subject before the other House of Parliament; if such were tire case, he thought he would be better doing his duty to the petitioners to delay presenting the petition until those papers were before the country. Lord STANLEY had no hesitation in saying . that the sub ject was one of great importance. He had received informa tion upon it from the Governor of the Colony of New Zea land, and in a few days it would be laid before the other House. He thought it would be advisable that if they,were to have any discussion on the subject it had better be delayed until that in formation was before their Lordships. Lord CLANRICARDE said that under those circumstances he would withdraw his motion for the present. THE FRANCHISE. Lord CLANRICARDE brought in a Bill for extending the elective franchise to persons who paid the income-tax. The object of the Bill was to extend it to annuitants, retired trades men, prVessional men, and others residing in furnished lodgings. The provisions of the Bill would be extended alike to cities, boroughs, and counties. He thought it would be better to reserve the discussion to the second stage, and he would simply move that the Bill be now read a first time. Lord STANLEY had no objection to allow the Bill to be read a first time, and concurred with the Noble Marquis in the delaying of the cliaen,pieu i i ved e* a ., ra n tivied i course, would not lead the Noble Marquis to imagine that he assented to its novel principle. Perhaps the Noble Lord would say whether he intended the Bill to be permanent or not. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he did not, if the income-tag would be discontinued hereafter. He had, however, a conviction in his mind that the income-tax was intended to be a permanent measure. The Bill was then read a first time. CORONERS' INQUESTS. The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL moved for a return of the number of inquests which bad been held upon children within the last twelve months ; and complained that the returns for the last eleven years were very defective, and in one case the Co nor had refused to make any return at all. Mlle Duke of RICHMOND thought his Noble Friend was alluding to Irish Coroners, but he might apply to the Clerk of the Peace for the county for the return. The Noble Lord had better move for a return from the Coroner himself, and if he refused, their Lordships would let the gentleman know that they possessed plenty of power to compel his attend ance, and to make him pay his expenses. There were many abuses in the system of Coroners, and he thought that it would be better to revise it altogether. With respect to the Coroners of England generally, he thought them a very highly respectable body. Lord CAMPBELL thought the House was bound to take this case into consideration, and he would suggest to the Noble Lord that he should move that the Coroner should forthwith ma* a return. The Earl of WICKLOW concurred in the suggestion of the Noble Lnrd. Lord DENISON thought that they had better not enter into any censure of this gentleman until they were in posses sion of the facts of the case. Lord CAMPBELL thought that this gentleman had al ready refused, and that be should be at once called upon by the House. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the rule when a return was ordered by the House of Lords was, to send to the Secretary of State, and he applied to the person who, in his judgment, ought to Enke it. After a conversation, in which Lord DENMAN and the Marquis of LANSDOWNE took nart, The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL stated that his object was to bring the circumstances of the case under the notice of their Lordships. The Marquis of NORMANBY suggested, that the notice which had then been taken of the matter would be sufficient for the purpose. Lord NVHARNCLIFFE suggested, that the Noble Earl (the Earl of Mounteashel) should give notice, that he would call the attention of the House to the matter on Monday, and he (Lord Wharncliffe) would in the meantime communicate with the Secretary of State, and ascertain what the facts of the case really were. The Dart of MOUNTCASHEL would assent to the propo sition of his Noble Friend. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought that this session could not pass without some alteration of the poor-law in Ireland. BASTARDY BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. RAI4.WAY CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION BILL. The Deport on this Bill was brought up, when The Earl of DALHOUSIE proposed several clauses as riders to the Bill, for regulating the appropriation of private voids, and for apportioning the compensation to be made for the a p propriation of them by railway companies, which were adep The same clauses were also adopted in the Bill for Scotland. On the motion of the Earl of DALHOUSIE, those Bills were ordered to be printed and read a third time on Tuesday next. RELIGIOUS GRANTS IN THE COLONIES. Lord MONTEAGLE moved for a return of all the grants %which had been made for religious purposes in the colonies, during the years 1840, 1841, and 1842, and the different sects to which they had been made. The return was granted, and the House then adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, April 18. The SPEAKER. took the Chair at Four o'clock. Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE moved that the agents for the Surrey and Sussex Roads ( Sunday toll) Bill be allowed to de posit a filled-up Bill, signed by them in the Private Bill-office; that the Committee on such Bill be revived, and have leave to sit and proceed on Monday next.—Agreed to. Mr. TUFNELL moved that the Committee for the Man chester and Salford Waterworks be allowed to sit on Monday next.--AgrTl to. _ WEST YORKSHIRE RAILWAY. Mr. M. MILNES, and other Hon. Members, presented pe titions against the West Yorkshire Railway. The following Bills were severally read a second time and ordered to be printed. Oxford Mileways, St. Matthew (Bethnal -green) Rectory, Spoad (Chin), &c., Inclosure, Castle HAI (Wexford) Docks, Lyme Regis Improvement, Market, and Waterworks, Dublin Pipe Water, Claughton cum Grange (St. Andrew's) Church, Claughtou cum Grange (St. Joh'i the Baptist's) Church, Kendal Reservoirs. AGRICULTURAL AND COMMERCIAL BANK OF IRELAND. On the motion that the Agricultural and Commercial Bank of Ireland Bill lie read a second time, Mr. WATSON sairthat his attention had been drawn to this Bill, and he thought that there were so many objections to it, that he should move that it be read a second time that day six months. The object of this Bill was to wind up the affairs of the Agricultural and Commercial Bank of Ireland, and gave power to the Court of Chancery to make orders, and to act in the affairs of this company with all the efficiency nece• , sary for winding up the affairs of the bank. This he conceived ought to be done by a public and not a private Act. Last session as Act was passed for winding up the affairs of public com paniet, but that Act empowered the Court of Chan cery to investigate into the manner in which the busi ness 'of the concern had been carried on ; and if TEM SUN', L014150/q,_S A TVRIDAY EVENING. APRIL I§, WS, there had been htly defect or neglect in the conduct of a company which had stopped payment, a report was to be made to the Boatd of Tr ace, who had power t adjudi:ate upn it. In 1t42 a similar Act to this had been introf!w!cd with 33 claescß, and v. Len the Bill -.vent into Committee al the clauses hail teen st tick cut but tn.. Anotl , r was pai , e , .! in thr. 're luperial . 1111: of Maot;ll.s:er, in which the only power retained by the company wa,. that of suing and being sued, and of winding up their affairs through a public officer. The Act of last session was a good Act, and it was under suah an Act as that that he thought - the powers sought by this Bill ought to be exercised, and not by a private Act ; and he should therefore move that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL recommended the post ponement of the second reading for a short time, in order to give an opportunity of considering the subject. Mr. WATSON withdrew his amendment, and the Bill was ordered to be read a second time on that day week. Mr. NIARTIN presented petitions from the Mayor and Cor. poration of Bristol, against the Exeter Railway Bill; also peti tions from a Mr. John Parsons and another gentleman, praying to be heard by counsel againt the Bill. Mr. BRO'fHERTON _presented a great number of peti tions against the West Riding Railway Rill. RAILWAY COMMITTEES. Lord G. SOMERSET, on introducing the consideration of the Second Report of the Committee on Railways, moved the first resolution, that counsel should open the proceedings in railway measures, but that they should be debarred the pri vilege of summing up. The other resolutions were of a gene ral character, and he need not trouble the House with their details. He trusted the House would see no reason to objeet to the measure, and that it would be allowed to pass unani mously. Lord HOWICK expressed his surprise that the Noble Lord had not brought the subject of proceedings before Railway Committees more distinctly under the notice of the House before those Committees should have commenced their labours. The Noble Lord and the House might remember, that in the debate which had taken place on the resolutions moved by the Hon. Member for Inserness, the Noble Lord then promised that he should propose some alterations in the standing orders to guide the Committee in their decisions. The House was aware that one Committee under the present system decided on one principle, and another Committee on another principle. There were great principles involved in the consideration of those cases, and he had, expected that when the Noble Lord undertook that this subject should be brought under the consideration of the House by her Majesty's Government he would have done se in a tangible form. These Committees were now about to begin their labours, and yet the House was in dark ness as to the principles by which they were to be guided.—(Hear, hear.) He was not prepared himself to introduce any resolution on the subject, but he thought there ought to be a general discussion as to what rules should be adopted. He thought he ought to complain of the silence of Government on this question. Mr. WILSON PATTEN thought that, if counsel were not allowed to sum up the advantages of contending lines, the Committees would be deprived of very great assistance. Mr. SHAW opposed the resolution. Mr. PAK INGTON thought it would be much better to leave these questions to the decision of the Committees them selves. Sir GEORGE GREY did not think it would be prudent to let a counsel state the case for his clients before their oppo nents had made out theirs, for that would be giving one party an unfair advantage over the other.—(Hear.) Lord G. SOMERSET said he conceived it would bs better to let Committees, in all cases, exercise their own discretion as to the manner in which the proceedings should be cars ied on—( Hear, hear)—for it had been found extremely difficult to lay down rules for the guidance of Committees in this respect ; therefore, it had been deemed a more prudent course to leave to the Committees the power of making such arrangements as the merits of each case should require. However, he now begged to say that he would withdraw the resolution. RECAL OF LORD ELLENBOROUGH. Mr. HUME said that his motion for the production of cor respondence connected with the recal of Lord Ellenborough stood for Thursday n"xt. He now wished to give notice that he did not intend to bring it forward until the Government was freed from the annoyance on the Maynooth grant.—(A laugh.) RAILWAYS. Lord HOWICK wished to know from the Noble Lord op posite (Lord G. Somerset) whether the reports of the Board of Trade would be laid before the Committees wl.ich were to meet on Monday? Lord G. SOMERSET was understood to say that no order had been made on the subject. Lord HOWICK only hoped that no motion would be made at a late hour of the night, when only a few Members might be present. Mr. LABOUCHERE said he understood that the reports of the Board of Trade would be laid before the Committees as a matter of course. Mr. DUN COAI HE said that the standing order on this sub ject was a most objectionable one. It was smuggled into the House last session, and he would take the sense of the House with a view to rescind it on Monday. Mr. AGLIONBY said that he thought the postponement of the decision till Monday evening would put the Commit tees to great inconvenience, and the parties who had their agents and witnesses in town to considerable expense. He thought the House ought to meet to-morrow, and come to a decision. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET made an explinatien across the table which was not distinctly heard in the gallery. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that the motion of the Noble Lord would by no means interfere with the motion which he intended to make on Monday. The reports which had 'seen submitted to the Committee ought to be accompanied with cer tain documents from the Board of Trade, containing the grounds en which they founded their reports. It was the public opinion that there were ex parte statements made to the Board of Trade, and that there was gross partiality on the part of the Railway Department of that Board. The object of his mo tion was that certain documents should accompany the reports of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade, stating the reasons why they recommended the dismissal or adoption of a Bill. This he wished to propose now by way of amendment. Lord HOWICK said that he should make no objection to the motion of the Noble Lord, but he should take this oppor tunity of calling the attention of the House to the nature of the reports. There was a distinct understanding that her Majesty's Government bad no objection to comply with the motion of the Honourable Member for Finsbury. He thought that the House had great reason to complain of the great want of care exhibited on the part of the organ of the Board of Trade. It was the duty of an officer of that department to have ascertained earlier the necessity of making much a motion ; it should have been brought fore and when it would have been practicable. He thought that this 112111F„be Agl:!atrght to complain. It was only , anolter , characterised the fiscal business of that department THE WAR IN SINDE. On the motion that the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate be read, Mr. HUME begged to ask the Noble Lord opposite (Lord ocelyn) whether the documents he (Mr. Hume) had moved for relative to Sinde, had been laid on the table? Lord JOCELYN said that some of the estimates moved for by the lion. Member, relative to certain receipts and expenses, katbeen received, and he hoped to have them completed very shortly. THE HORSE-GUARDS. Sir R. PEEL, in answer to a question from Mr. Grate Berkeley, relative to certain reports from the Board of General Affairs, said he hoped the Hon. Member would have no ob. jection to repeat the question on Monday next. STATE OF THE LABOURING CLASSES. Lord JOHN MANNERS wished to ask the Noble Lord the Member for London when his Lordship intended to lay before the House the particulars of his motion relative to the state of the labouring classes in this country, for the dis cussion of which he had fixed the first of May? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he proposed to do so on Thursday next. GRANT TO MAYNOOTH. Mr. J. COLLETT wished to know from the Right Honourable Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Govern. ment, if the debate on the grant to Maynooth should terminate this evening, when it was intended to propose that the Hcuee should go into Committee on the Bill? Sir It. PEEL—I trust there will be no objection to the House going into Committee on the Bill on Monday next.— ( Hear, hear.) The debate has now been protracted to a very long period, and as the Government have only taco days, namely, Monday and Friday, for bringing on Government measures, I do hope that if the debate shculd close to-night there will be no objection to the vote being taken on Monday. —(Hear, hear.) I beg to assure lien. Members that no undue advantage whatever is intended to be taken in any way ; and, therefore. after the debate closes to-night, I shall make the motion in form that the House go into Committee on the Bill on Monday next.—( Hear, hear. ) Sir R. INGLIS said that the country felt so deeply inte rested in this measure that he could not at once, without con sulting his friends on that side of the House, give his con sent ; and he, therefore, hoped his Right Hon. Friend would not ask him to answer the question upon the instant. Lord J. RUSSELL said, with respect to taking the vote of money from the Consolidation Fund, for the purposes of the Bill, he supposed that would be involved in the motion of the Hon. Member fur Sheffield. He supposed the consideration of the Bill in Committee could not take place before some sub sequent day—Friday, perhaps. Sir R. PEEL said the Committee which be proposed for Monday was not a Committee on the Bill, but a Committee of the whole House for the purpose of taking the sense of the House on the money vote included in the Bill, and afterwards the Bill would be referred to the ordinary Committee. The Hon. Member for Sheffield had given notice of a motion for Monday. He did not complain of the length to which this debate had been protracted, and he hoped that considering the discussion which had already taken place, end the discussion which must necessarily occur in its subse quent stages, there would he no objection to their proceeding with the money vote on Monday. The presentation of petitions connected with Maynooth was then proceeded with. Mr. HINDLEY presented forty-eight petitions against the Maynooth grant from the following places :—From the parish church at Ashton-under-Lyne, signed by the clergy and congregation ; from the clergy and congregation of St. Peter's, Ashton-under-Lyne ; from the Surrey Chapel, signed by nearly one thousand persons ; from the inhabitants of Ship rith, Cambridgeshire ; Yate and Pickup Beek, Lancashire ; Mortock, and its Vicinity , So mersetshire ; Waterford, Ire land ; Walsingham, Norfolk; Snoring, Norfolk ; Great Jotham Protestant Dissenters, Corsham, Wilts ; Berkeley, Gloucestershire; Pembroke Dock; Swansea, Glamorganshire; Calton, Norfolk ; Pisgah Chapel, Flint; Lady Huntingdon's Chapel, Gloucester ; Wem, Salop; Salem Chapel, Woolwich; Vet non Chapel, Pentonville ; Salem Chapel, Utley, York ; Bangor, North Wales ; Barrowden and Morcott, Rutland ; Cannon-street, Dumferline ; South Creek, Norfolk; Bap tists, Church-street Chapel, Blackfriars-road ; Ileptenstall, York; Wesleyan Methodists, Lostock ; Primitive Methodists, Baildon, York ; Shipley, York ; Bradford, York ; Helough ton, South Raynham, Norfolk; Stale bridge ; Hyde, Che shire ; Wesleyan Methodist Association, Warlaggan, Wilts ; Pilperro, Cornwall ; Clithero, Probruan, and Cayhrenom, Cornwall ; Tabernacle Chapel, Northwick, Dulne ; Calvinistic Methodists, Henham Denbigh ; Trevena, Brecon ; New Tabernacle Gi ra n h e C s h e p i e e l t , yOol:dfE-ss Friends, t s re x et.ro r a , d o , c S h l e t s o ; Free Church, Rochester ; Teachers of Sun day Schools, IlarfOrd r p . .L K s agH:rn against tz T ati hnpesrte grant t. s i e e n presented wa a netr p et e o t ri n ,a n ,yenn f o r t co o m the Sy nod of Glasgowl o n and AY . ac e (from Devon), Mr. Taylor, Mr. •G'it-elhebriy Mr. Brll, al Ha milton, i , and ito 111 r. ROEBUCK A Ck ton p . resented a pettion • from some place, whose name we did nut catch, in favour of the measu re . Petitions against the Maynooth grant were presented by Mr. C. Round, Mr. Plumptre (s), Bovirmg, Sir J. Eastl Leicester ; Mr. Hattie, from Paisley ;, I° Ai e e ; Cripps ; Lord Ebrington, from Plymouth ; Mr. T. .Mi nes Mr. Bright, from Northumberland; Mr. Blewitt, fro n r e n " \l"- be; mouth ; Mr. Grogan, from Dublin ; Mr. Macaul a y, ' f Edinburgh ; Mr. Darby, Captain Polhill, and Mr. C. Bruce, m from Elgin. Sir C. NAPIER presented a petition from the Protestant Dissenters meeting at Portland-street Chapel, in favour of the grant to Maynooth College. Petitions against the grant were presented by Lord Ashley, Mr. G. Bankes, Mr. Sharman Crawford, and other Hon. Members. MAYNOOTH GRANT.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. The order of the day was then read. Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he felt deep rrgret at being compelled to separate mself on the present occasion from many Hon. Gentlemen for whom he entertained the highest I—( Hear, hear.) Ile had within the last ten years ben reepeet, and at being obliged to differ nacre especially in epinion persecuted, ot:t pn. e utcd, and if he heel net 'ed the Teems'? of with mane- Members from frelsrei. He also Celt regret at defence hit wene he slieuld have he s e. eas t i n t o a gaol. beirg compelled to oppose tee me sere of her .Maje : 4 , ) 's G o _ Hear, ;:t.a.r)—and now w a s he to be told verr merit, glitch he was -ure th• y brought forwatd cairn the : th a t he w as a hitlnt. Of all the debates that had Been brought kindest rhseesoions to cards b r e large.—( H ear But. as one before the Howe sine - he lead eetered it, Eone of C.ent had of tem. e who were in favt,ur ,f the voluntary p: iple. j ever exitthitod (I • xtraerelinary a Tacit': el iti that he felt r;omp,lieti to vote against it. There were two charges on e. Te e lien. eleteber foe P-ot•fral had et - tligl,t. , md titcm brought against those persons who, like himself, supported the on this question, and what did he say ? He felt in his eon voluntary principle. They were charged, first, with concurring science that it was impossible to justify the Right Hon. !taro in the former grant to Maynooth, and in the next place, net on any other ground than that of expediency.—( Hear, they were charged with voting for a chimerical hear.) Expediency, therefore, was the better principle.— project, which they had no chance of carrying out. (Hear, hear .) In fact, in all debates in that House having re- With regard to the first he believed it would be admitted, with- lotion to Ireland, expediency was the rule, and principle was out dispute, that a new question now arose, for a permanent the exception. If Hon. Members believed that this was a endowment by Bill was a very different thing from an safe because a final measure, they would find themselves annual grant by vote.—( Hear.) It might be in some degree mistaken. Mr. O'Connell, in his honest speech in Conciliation nconsistent wit h the voluntary principle that he had not opposed Hall, attributed to agitation the measure which was now be the grant to Maynooth, but he confessed he felt reluctant to fore the House. He thanked Conciliation-hell for it, and vote against the grant to Maynooth, out of respect to his s t a ted th a t they w ould take that in receipt, and wait the Catholic established by the Irish Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Emancipation Bill? Did they recollect the agitation for re- Nor did he think that the second charge was more valid. peal? He thought they would find that every large concession He was of opinion that if this grant were passed to the College h a d p ave d the way for fresh demands. Another Mem. of Maynooth the principle would not stop there. They would ber h a d r i sen , the representative for Nottinghamshire then be required to support the priesthood, and to build (Lord Lincoln). 'The Noble Lord said that inasmuch churches, and the result would be that a regularly endowed as G ov e rn ment had thought fit to hold up the cup of bliss to State Church would be established in Ireland. That this the lips of the Roman Catholics, that House would not be grant was opposed to the wishes of the people of England was justified in dashing it to the ground. Were they to be told sufficiently evidenced by the number of petitions which had that they had no right to judge of what was brought before the poured in from all parts of the country against it. He did House by the Frime Minister? Why, in that case, the not deny that a portion of this opposition might arise from sooner they went home to their wives and firesides the better. the old feeling which regarded with disapprobation all conces- —(Laughter.) The Prime Minister, in that case, would be a sions to Ireland. A great deal of doubt existed as to the real despot, and they would be his slaves.—( Hear, hear.) Their sentiments of the leader of the Irish people on this question. occupation would be gone.—( Laughter. ) He did not The Honourable and Learned Member for the county see the Right Honourable Baronet in his place, and of Cork had professed so many different principles he had a great objection to speak of any man behind his back, on this subject that they might well doubt whether but he had said in that House before that he did not care ache he were a voluntary agent or not. He could not conceive how ther the Right Hon. Baronet or the Noble Lord governed the the Catholic clergy would accept of this grant to the College of country. It was a toss-up between them.—(Laughter. ) But Maynooth, and refuse, on a future occasion, to accept of an now his opinion was entirely changed. This measure brought endowment for themselves. He could not see how the adop- forward by the Right. Hon. Baronet, after he had climbed into tion of one should not carry them forward to the other. But power by the avowal of certain principles, looked as if, without there was another matter which deserved consideration in the any reason, he turned round upon his friends and sought pro language which had been held by the Hon. Member for Cork tection from his enemies.—(Hear, hear.) If a man deceived in the Repeal Association, and by some in that House—he him (Mr. Muntz) once, he believed he would de meant the argument of restitution. What did that mean? ceive him always, no matter were he the Prime Why, nothing short of the establishment of the Catholic Church Minister or the lowest person in the country, and on the ruins of the Protestant Church.—( Hear, hear.) Tithes he would never have confidence in that man again. were, originally, the property of the Catholic Church, and, if The Hon. Member for Canterbury stated that by giving a good the argument were enforced, they should be restored to that education to the priests they would lose their influence over Church. No man was more averse to an Established Church the people, and that by making the priests above the people in Ireland than he was, whatever that Church might be, but would render them useless. It was said also by a Noble Lord he never wnuld consent to endow one Church at the expense that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government of another. He thought the Established Church a monstrous was the best hand at dressing up a case in that House ;be grievance, and had always consistently opposed it. He was might have gone further and stated that he was better able to in favour of the appropriation of the revenues of the Church bait a trap than any other Gentleman in the House.—(Laughter.) to national purposes. The Hon. Member for Dundalk said a When he came forward with the property-tax he caught all the great deal of Church property was the gift of private in- Gentlemen at his side of the House, and they complimented dividuals. He (Mr. Crawford) had no objection that Church him on the measure which he brought forward. And what did property should be disposed of as the testators wished. He he do now ? He consented to conciliate the people of could not help feeling that there had been a breach of faith on Ireland with a g rant to their clergy, and he baited his trap the part of the Catholics in supporting this measure—a breach with education, and he caught all the gentlemen on the Oppo of faith towards those who supported the voluntary principle. sition side of the House. Several gentlemen told him that, He felt that the Catholics, in supporting the measure, though they ought to vote against the measure from principle, were acting inconsistently with their former declarations. and ridicule it on account of the men by whom it was intro- Ile heard of nu intention to extend civil liberty to Ireland. duced, yet they could not oppose it as it was for educational He did not hear of any intention to extend the franchise—he purposes. That was the bait, and it was well placed, for lie did not hear of any intention to make an addition to the num- caught them altogether.—( Laughter. ) The great question ber of Irish Members. The landlords' claims had been ail- was, if the Irish wanted priests, why did they not pay for mitted. He had not heard of any intention to grant such an their education? But that was easily answered by them. extension of civil rights as would tend to check agitation. The They said that there was the absenteeism, which people had been deceived by the agitation for Catholic eman- drained the country, and they ought not on that account to pay cipation. They would be deceived by the agitation for re- their priests. If their gentry gu to other countries to spend peal. It would end in the endowment of the Catholic six millions of money per annum, they could not blame them Church without any extension of civil liberties to the people. (the English) for not paying their priests for them.—( Hear, They would be deceived by the rep eal a g itation as the y had hear.) What was the real position of Ireland ? Let them been deceived by the emancipation agitation. They had sub- look back to the year when the income-tax was introduced. scribed large sums of money to support that agitation, but the There was at that time no income-tax laid upon Ireland. A people would find out, after all the sacrifices they had spirit duty and a stamp duty were introduced in its stead, the made, that they would be deceived. He wondered how former of which was afterwards taken off . rt of ti n priests were the Irish Members could hold f orth this measure as told that they ought to pay for the suppoebe a boon to his countrymen. Not a single petition had been enure the Irish were in need. Could not they subscribe 10,0001. presented from the people of Ireland in favour of this measure. a year for the repeal? Could not they subscribe 10,000/. to The agitation would not cease in consequence of this measure. any thin g the y liked for the sake of agitation ?—( Hear, bear.) It had been said that when Catholic Emancipation was granteA But they could not subscribe for the education of the priests. all agitation would cease. Had such been the case ? lie con- They had ample means for these purposes, and if they wanted sidered the measure was totally Conservative, anti having only the priests educated for the sake of educa t i n g their p oor, let for its object to sustain the Established Ch urch in Ireland. lie them pay for it. When they educated the Roman Catholic maintained that no benefit could he obtained for Ireland ; this priests, what then were they to do with them ? They must very course of policy would not be assented to by the English pay them ; and when they paid them, how could they pay every people. If the grant was persisted in, contrary to the feelin g s other dissenting priest in this country, even down to the merest of the people of this country, it would be prejudicial to the in- "ranter." He had heard in the course bate d ebate a bun. terests of Ireland in the minds of t he p eo p le of England. As dred remarks against the measure , not a friend to the country, and ha vin g a wish for the principle of heard one sing Hear le remark in its favour.—( , hear.) civil and religious liberty, he would give a vote in opposition to It was alleged by Hon. Members that there was a great this measure. feeling existing in this country against this measure ; and they Lord C. HAMILTON said that he would take this oppor- were quite right, for such a feeling was generally entertained. tunity of stating his opinion on this question, and the grounds There was a great dislike exhibited in England against the on which he would found his vote on the measure. Ile must Roman Catholic priests for they made con v er ts wherever the y say that, of all the arguments he heard in Ireland in favour of could. H e was not a bigot—he wished to tolerate every reli the repeal of the union, be never heard one stronger than gion, but he was not an advocate for paying for another reli that the Irish Roman Catholics were not placed in the same gion when he thought his own the best. He would allow them position as the Dis enters in this country. Ile never thought to enjoy their own opinions, but he did not like to pay for the that any other argument justified the repeal. They gave religion of other people out of the Consolidated Fund. He did thirty-five thousand pounds as an endowment to 600,00(1 Dis • not understand how gentlemen on his side of the House, who centers, and they were refusing an endowment of twenty- formerly voted against religion being paid for out of the six thousand pounds to 6,000,000 of Roman Catholics in Ire• Consolidated Fund, could now vote for it.—(Hear.) land. The Hon. Gentleman bai made use of another argue it was because they were caught in the trap laid meet which did not appear to him ( Lord C. Hamilton) to be by the Right Hon. Baronet which had education for its bait. very felicitoue. He had said that this measure would be the He would conclude his remarks by repeating what he had al cause of creatingpolitical agitation. Now, he (Lord C. Ilamil- ready said, and which he was sorry the Right Hon. Baronet ton) was of opinion that it was the want of such measures that was not present to hear, that he was a very great friend had caused agitation in Ireland.—( Hear.) If this Bill had to principle and steadiness, and therefore he war bound on all been forced from the Government by fear and intimidation, or occasions reasonably to support them ; and if the Government if it had come in an unwilling spirit from a reluctant Govern- did not act with principle they should go on continually ehang ment, he did think they would net be justified in granting it. ing them until they got a Government which would satisfy But what was the fact? The Government had come forward the country. spontaneously and offered the boon with a good grace, and, Mr. NEVILLE said, that protracted as this debate had therefore, it would be received in Ireland as a boon.— been, he was anxious not to let it come to a close without ( Cries . of " Hear, hear.") He had heard some craving the indulgence of the House for a few moments. He Honourable Members speak as prophets, but he contended could not shut his eyes to the petitions which were nightly that they had already been put out of court as prophets, fair poured upon that table from nearly every constituency in the this proposition had not resulted in the disastrous consequences kingdom ; but as they were an argument one way, so was the in Ireland that they had prognosticated.—( blear, hear.) He absence of petitions from the only two solely Protestant, felt justified in asserting that the measure h ad met with no o p - solely Church of England, and solely educated constituencies position from the Protestants compared with that offered to it —viz., the two universities—an argument in the opposite three by the Dissenters of both countries, for the latter had been in • lion. Whenever the Church was in danger, Oxford and Cam etigated to do so by jealous and disaffected feelings.—(Hear.) bridge were foremost to petition, and he could not but think He had often used the term " excited" in speaking of this that had it been so now they would not have remained in the measure, and he should confess he felt that no petition had back ground, and he thought it was speaking but tire opinions i i d iun th t a h t e e th on e fi c i o ie r n iti c u e ct oft f il t o i s t e e been presented here that was not the result of excited feeling, of a majority of the Right Honourable Chancellor of the Ea t,' not e lost e ou e i t u ni o r i s i e iy o e f m tl a ii i s ia de s a c t o e rn he ve h r n y d ell'clieddiantegiumaguse.—mtitieua're. ch eifi e sro r s orf.Te .' n ' ile - ma 7 n o fi rtn in at th e hear.) He thought many of the statements, fervid anti by whom he was so deservedly bone—, eee „_ .toe.oe shoe —ease of the ieereesea clangor., to the had visited Maynooth, and in bearing testimony to the Protestant Church, arising from this increased grant, were courtesy he received at the hands of the authorities, he could wholly without foundation. It was stated that a liberality like not but acknowledge the truth of every description ho had this was dangerous, but he would ask the Hon. Members heard of it, except that of the Right Hon. Member for Perth who used that argument whether the remission of (Mr. F. Maule) and his friend Mr. Grant.—( A l a ugh.) the penal code, and of other laws peculiarly oppressive to Ire- Ile viewed with feelings of pity those dilapidated walls, that land, had not softened the asperities which the people of that scanty library, and the care and pride with which the few country cherished towards England, and swept away in a great works of value contained in it were regarded ; but those degree the prejudices which had kept them asunder, ?—( Hear, feelings were changed into remorse and shame, when he heard hear.) And would they say that this measure would not be that he was a member of a Legisluture which so miserably followed by a like happy result ? He thought that the course endowed a Government educational institution, that they were which had been pursued with respect to the Roman Catholics, forced to send away the pupils a portion of the year solely in times past, was more calculated to disseminate their princi- from being unable to provide them with the necessaries of life. pies than any other which could have been adopted • and as —('Hear, hear.) Everything about it was meagre. One, those mistaken efforts to put down the Roman Catholic and only one , w ork of art he remembered to have seen— religion had totally failed, as they had only strengthened the viz., a marble bust of George 111., beneath which were these hatred which unfortunately they had always cherished towards words : the professors of the other faith, he (Lord C. Hamilton) thought that now they should try whether a greater degree of cordiality and sympathy would not induce them to lay aside the prejudices they had so long retained. Hon. Members, perhaps, would recollect the old fable of the man and his cloak, and how the more the storm did beat, the closer did he wrap his cloak around him, until, the tempest over, he was induced, by the genial rays of the sun, to loose its folds by degrees, and at last to throw it aside altogether.— ( Cheers.) They had been as the storm to Ireland, and they had been unsuccessful. Now let them try the sunshine.— (Cheers.) It was notorious that the state of Maynooth was not such as was contemplated by its founders, and they would be only continuing the evil by perpetuating the present grant, and the preseot system. For his own part, if he were asked to decide on that night whether the present system should be continued, or whether it should be at once dissolved, he was afraid that he should support the latter proposition. He thought that an unnecessary degree of alarm had been exhibited by several Hon. Members with regard to the effect of educating the Irish priests. Surely, if those Hon. Members were assured that Protestantism was based upon truth, arid he (Lord C. Hamil ton) for one was fully convinced of it, they shoul I rather rejoice in the spread of education, because they were all aware that dark ness and superstition and ignorance were co-existent as certainly as were light and truth. This was not only, in his opinion, an equitable grant, but it was enhanced by the mariner and the spirit in which it was offered by the Government. It had been offered in a manner calculated not to wound, in the slightest degree, the feelings of the most sensitive; and he was sure that the Irish people would observe that all personal or party motives had been merged in an anxious desire to give them some measure of justice. They would observe the inconve nience, and he might say the odium to which the Ministry had subjected themselves in bringing forward this measure, and he trusted the recollection of it would sink deeply into their hearts, and be remembered with lively gratitude. The debate, he was glad to see, had been distinguished by the absence of all political topics which might tend to resuscitate bitter or angry feelings, and with the view of doing away in a greater degree with the prejudices which now existed against this Clitholic seminary, he might perhaps be permitted to sug gest that the new institution, for he could call it no other, should be removed as far as possible from its present locality of Maynooth. They knew from the account given by the Right Hon. Baronet of the present state of tire building, that the public would gain nothing by the attempt to repair it, and he conceived that as they should be obliged to rebuild it, it would be wiser to remove its site and change the name which at present was a very rallying point for the exhibition of political animosity.—( Loud cheers.) He trusted that thus regenerated its new name would be the harbinger of a better state of things for Ireland; while the old name, with its associations, should be forgotten—(Cheers)--and in the meantime ; he would pray of those Hon. Members who had foreboded the most direful consequences from the passing of this measure, to suspend their judgments, and to give the pro position time to produce its fruits, and he did hope that the re sult would be a greater degree of peace, and comfort, and edu cation in Ireland, arid an extended confidence in the justice of the English nation.—( Cheers. ) Mr. MUNTZ rose and said that they saw strange things— (Laughter)—and they heard strange things--(Continued laughter)—but nothing that he ever saw or heard, however strange, was to him so very strange, as the change that had taken place in the speeches and apinions of Noble Lords and Hon. Members.—(Laughter.) Their memories were clearly affected.—( Continued laughter.) He recollected that at the first, when he had the honour of sitting in that House, every Catholic question was a battle-field for presonality and party. ( Hear, hear.) He recollected, and they might recollect, that the vote of want of confidence in the Ministry was upon a Catholic question.—(hear hear.) They might recollect that the House decided that it had no confidence in a Government which yielded concessions to the Irish Catholics.—(Hear, bear.) They might recollect, also, that these arguments fre quently encljd in personal disputes; and if he remembered aright, once in a duel. He would yield to no man in that House or in the country, in support of toleration to all classes and sects of religion • but that was one of the principal reasons why be was opposed this measure. He thought this a paltry and pitiful measure which Government ought to be heartily ashamed of. If the grant were truly for the purposes of education, as stated by the Right Hon. Baronet, be (Mr. Muntz) would allow him to ask a grant as large and as hand. some as he liked; but let him not tell him that this grant was for the purposes of education. Education of whom ? Of a few Catholic priests, who would, in their turn, give edu cation to the people ? Was it a principle, he would ask, of the Catholic priesthood to communicate the education they themselves received to those beneath them ? The only education they gave was an exposition of the Sacred Scriptures according to their own plans and principles. What more ? Did they allow them to think for themselves ? ( Hear.) He was most anxious that every man should be allowed the free exercise of his religion, but he did not think it f a i r , that h for it.—(Hear.) Lhe (Mr. Muntz) should be asked to pay (Hear, hear.) He et every man pay for his own religion.— his.—(Chee rs .) He had Mentz) as ked no man to pay for been told that he was a bigot.— (Laughter.) H e a bigot I—(G rea t l aug ht er .) He had suffered too much both in person and pocket to be a bigot. " Georgio Tertio, Petri Patrice, Fundatori suo, Collegium Manutianum." Upon this inscription he would not comment, but Hon. Mem bers, he thought, would not expect to find such an one in a throwr o i nurseryu t en tertained by the Govern ment when in O pp o s i tion. He would of fr om the sedition. other % c a that ) Taunts had been H , he ar measure was not . this not retaliate or find fault with those who, when in power, might have brought forward a measure of which they highly approved. The Noble Lord knew he could not carry it ; he knew that such torrents of petitions as were now poured into the House, backed by the opposition of those Conservatives who were now tacitly opposed to it, if not by the scruples of those whom confidence in the Right Hon. Baronet (which the Noble Lord did not possess) had overcome, would have pre vented this Bill reaching a second reading.—(Hear hear. ) Besides, there would have been the opposing vote and speech of one member of the Government —the Right Hon. Member for Perth (Mr. F. 11laule).—( Hear. ) He hailed this as a mea sure of justice as well as of policy, and would never believe that the principles of the Christian religion or of the Protestant faith were opposed to the education of the Christian instruc tors of so vast a portion of our fellow-subjects.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. BELLEW said that he would not give his vote In favour of this measure, as he agreed with other Ho nourable Gentlemen in thinking that it was introduced in order to predispose the minds of the people of Ireland to other measures, and that it would tend to do away with great prejudices which had been encouraged in this ceuntry. The people of Ireland were now suffering under the payment of the Established Church, he thou g ht that it displayed great sense on their parts to exhibit such readiness to receive this grant. It had been said that it was hard giving money to a Catholic College when there was no endowment to the Pro. testant Church for education. He could not conceive the weight of that argument. What was the difference whether money was given for education, or education was given whereby those who received it would afterwards gain a livelihood? Take Trinity ;College, for instance. A Catholic could have no advantages in that College. There were seventy scholarships, twenty-two fellowships, and 40,0001. exclusively devoted to the objects of that College, which was exclusively Protestant. There were 150,0001. a year endow ments to Diocesan schools and to Charles the Second's schools. It was said that there would be no control exercised by the Government over the College. But it was no matter what the control might be, the students would receive a Roman Catholic education nevertheless.—( Cheers.) In other countries there was a regular arrangement between the Catholic Church and the State. But this was not admitted to be an endowment—it was only a grant to a College—it was rot for a whole clergy, so that there was no attempt to incorporate them with the State. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the various meetings which were held in this country against the grant, and thought that the language made use of at them and by several Hon. Members in the House was sufficient to rouse the indignation of the Irish people. The Hon. Member for Newcastle, who was remarkable for the strong description of his language, stated that the priests had no ties to prevent them from being rebellious; but he forgot that they had the ties of sickness and sorrow, and that they had duties to perform whirls those who had wives and families would be expected to discharge. — ( Hear.) He could not sit down without thanking those Protestant Members who had, in direct defiance of the opinion of their constituencies, supported this measure. No doubt it would lay tlieui open to the severe censure of their constituents, but they would have the consolation of knowing that the course, the liberal and wise course they had pursued on that occasion was calculated to lead to the existence of better feelings between the inhabitants of the two countries. Captain TAYLOR remarked that, in the course of the de bate, it had been said that the opposition to this insasure out of doors was confined to the Dissenters, but he differed from this opinion. He knew that the Protestants of both countries looked upon this measure with anything but indifference. They thought the measure was quite unnecessary, and complained that the leaders of their party had basely betrayed them. The predecessors of the present Government would never have dared to introduce such a measure, and as he considered it was fraught with danger to the Protestant interests of the nation, he felt it to be his bounden duty to oppose it. Sir FREDERICK TRENCH declared his intention to give the measure his most unanimous support, notwithstanding he had presented several petitions from his own constituency against it. He could not, however, conceal from himself that they totally misunderstood the question, and when they came to read the discussions on the subject, or more minutely to look into the question, he was satisfied they would see the expediency of the measure. In Ireland there were upwards of 70,000 Roman Catholics, who existed in a state of ignorance and bigotry that to him was truly alarming. Their priests had daily intercourse with them, and it must be evident that, if that priesthood were better educated than they now are, its benefits would be extended to their flock. Mr. COBDEN, who at first spoke in such a low to ne of voice as to be quite inaudible in the gallery, said it would appear that great apprehension existed in the public mind that the House was going to endow the Roman Catholics of Ireland, for three fourths of the petitions which had been presented to that House went upcin the suprosition that they were going to , lass a mea titre to endow ti.e omen ie sthood. Now since the 11!‘.iiiber for Birndngtin, who dimplayed less of his wanted sagacity on that occasion, oval ..!own, he had thought it to be his duty to go and prase the Bill, and se, what it was •he• eteie going to He fm:nd by the preamble of that Bill !hat 1 , ,y were goon-, to ~mend tea :1e which were passed in the Parliiwent o: Ire Loll, providing mesas for the education of persons 1 refessing the Roman Cath oli c religion. He looked over this Bill to see if he could find anything which could in the smallest degree lead to the impression that they were going to endow the Roman Catholic religion, and he could find nothing of the sort. Now if any Hon. Gentle wan who was in the secrets of the Government, and who might he better informed than himself on the measure, and who thus had an advantage over him, they might put a different construction upon the measure.—(Hear, hear. ) It was perfectly competent for any Honourable Gen tleman to put what construction he pleased upon it, but he confessed it did not appear to him that the coesequences of this Bill would be the endowment of the Roman Catholics . of Ireland. But he thought it was cons i s tent, as tar as he was co ncerned, to vote for the measure , beca use, in his opinion, it was simply andpurely an educational grant. If the Right Hon. Baronet who was at the head of the Government would follow the example of the Hon. Member fur London, and were to express a desire for his consent to endow the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland, even if both parties in that House were to unite re iib him, he ventured to say the country would never suffer him to carry such a measure, nor could they hope in their day to endow the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland out of the consolidated fund? The excitement which existed in the country in consequence of the misappre hension which prevailed upon what they were then about to do, roast have convinced the H ouse that he was right in what he was saying. The grant was simply for educational p poses, and involved no principle. — ( Cries of " No, no.") The Honourable Member for Oxford cheered, and he presumed ironically, at his assertion that there was no principle involved in the q uestion, but would the Right Hon. Gentleman permit him to ask if the G o vernment were to be thrown upon the question, and her Majesty sent for the Right Hon. Gentleman to form another Government, would not his first measure be to propose a vote of 9,000/. to the College of Al aynooth ?—( Cheers.) If he was right, then what was it but a question of 17,000/. ? And how would they pre sent themselves to the eyes of Europe , who had witnessed the excitement, if the grant were negatived? Why, it was a per secution that was never heard of in the annals of religious his tory. Hon. Members were not contending that there should be no Maynooth. No. Hon Members said there should be education at Maynooth ; but it should be a defective education. No, they did not contend that there should be no College, but that the College should be like a barrack and not a public sehool.—(Cheers. ) He did net see that there was the least necessity for going into discussion as to the merits of the education provided at Maynooth, because no one proposed to put an end to it. He could see no objection to vote a sum of money for giving 7.000,000 persons proper religious education. They had now in Ireland a system of national education, for which they voted from 70,000/. to 90,000/. a year, to instruct the children of both Catholics and Protestants, yet they would not give a good education to those men who were to be the pastors and religious instructors of those children when they advanced in years. He had made some inquiries, and he found the means provided at Maynooth were any thing but sufficient for giving the students a liberal educa tion. Now, surely, if they gave these priests some instruc tion in chemistry and natural philosophy it would make them more acceptable pastors to the farmers and farm-labourers of Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) Then he could sec no possible objection to the grant, although tome Honourable Mem bers complained of the system of separating the education of the clergy front that of the laity. Why this system was not confined to the Roman Catholics for he believed it was the custom of the Protestant Dissenters of this country to educate their young men intended for the ministry apart from the laity, and for his part he could see no objection whatever to such an arrangement. Again, it was objected that this grant was for a peculiar religion of one sect, and he begged to remind those who opposed it on that ground, that they voted last year 55,000/., which by the report of the Privy Council went to the national schools of England. Now, a clergyman stands at the head of these na tional schools wilt a catechism in his hand, and no one was allowed to enter the schools who did not learn the catechism. That 55,000/. came from the consolidated fund ; and they made large grants to the Universities, from which the Roman Catholics derived no benefit, and yet they were con tending that it was wrong in principle to make these grants. It was too bad to apply this principle to their own case, arid refuse it to the Rotnan Catholics of Ireland. He did riot think that was the place for discussing the theological part of the question ; and he would here remark, that if they had more logical and less theological questions discuesed in that House, the interests of the nation would be better attended to. —( Laughter.) But that was the last place for discussing theo logical subjects; and a worse body of men could hardly set themselves up to be a synod for settling theological matters. He had received many adverse communications from the country upon this subject, but he had no right to complain of this ; but still he must support the measure, because he be lieved it would not only be acceptable to, but greatly benefit the Irish people; Indeed he was happy to have an opportunity in that House to give a vote without violating his principles which would be acceptable to the Irish people. His first act as a public man was to publish the evils under which Ireland had been suffering ; and he could not on that occasion re rain from giving a conscientious vote in favour of the measure, notwithstanding it would be in direct opposition to the re monstrances of those for whom he entertained a high respect, and with whom he had long acted. But he should have the sa tisfaction of knowing, that he had given a salutary vote in favour of a measure which he believed was the first step towards healing the festering wounds of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Mr. FERRAND agreed that the question could not be settled in that House. It would have to be submitted fo the country. They had opposed the great principles which had placed the Ministers in power, and he would read some of the pledges which had been given by the Ministerial adherents at the last general election, and show them in connexion with their conduct before the House and the country. Was there any Member of that House who had forgotten that the cry raised at the last general election was—" The Church in danger." But, since then, hots had they departed from the principles which they professed before their constituents, and how had they violated the promises they had given to those who had sent thetn to Parliament? Ile only wished that the Right Hon. Baronet would again appeal to the coun try, and give the people an opportunity of expressing their judgment; but on the present occasion he would judge the Ministers out of their own mouths. The small party called the Conservative party—for now it was a small party—telt that he had misled and betrayed them. Ile w ould. as naor. , the people of England to call upon their Sovereign to dissolve that House, in order that they might have an opportunity of expressing their sentiments on the proceedings of those whom they had sent to represent them there. At the last general election, her Majesty's Ministers had slated that they had opposed those who preceded them in the Irish Edu cation Bill, because they believed that the effect of its policy would be to place the whole of the education in the hands of the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland. A Gentleman, a Member of the other House of Parliament, on the hustings at Guildford had made this public declaration, that the Members of her Majesty's Government had entered on office solely in consequence of their adherence to those principles which they now seemed to repudiate.—( Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen might cry " hear, hear," but what would be the position they would hold in that House and the country when he had exposed them. That Hon. Gentleman had declared that their possession of power would have this good effect—that by the exclusion of the Whigs from power they would at last have the opportunity of preventing mischief, if they had not the ability to do much good. They had resisted, and successfully resisted, the wilder schemes of Radical demolition—he had declared, that if the Church had to fear the hostility of violence and insidious foes, he would ask her Majesty's Government where those insidious foes now where, and he would tell them that it was upon the Treasury bench, and in the list of her Majesty's Ministers, that they would find the insidious foes of the Church of Eng land. They had been told that when the Tithe Commutation Bill was passed, that it was to promote, through every portion of the country, harmony and peace in Ireland. What was said by Lord Lyndhurst ? That it was calcu lated to inflict grievous injury, and he quoted the words of Lord Melbourne, that it was calculated to give a heavy blow and great discouragement to Protestantism in that country. He had praised Dr. Lefroy as an active and zealous sentinel, but he would ask where was now the honest and zealous sentinel? What had been the expressions of Lord Stanley on the hustings at Lancaster? That the cup of their iniquity was full. The Attorney-General for Ireland, during the contest at the last election for the University of leublio, had declared that the Protestant Church was the grand safe guard of the State in Ireland. There the Right Hon. Gentleman sat, and now, in voting for this Bill, whether he still thought the same of the value of the Protestant Church, and whether her Majesty's Ministers had now redeemed the pledges which they had given at the last election. But there was one paper which, at that election, had been placarded on the walls of every borough and county town in England. It was called the Tamworth manifesto; and he should like to call the attention of the House, and espe cially of the First Lord of the Treasury, for that paper showed that the Right Hon. Baronet had himself adopted the whole of those measures in office which when out of office he opposed. Whatever might Ise the opinions of the Whigs, there was one thing for which he respected them ; when they professed an opinion they held to it ; and he firmly believed that the Whigs were upright, honourable, and honest men as compared with the present Minister. When the First Lord of the Treasury had addressed his constituents he had endeavoured to support the principles of Conservatism, and had stated that he feared the progress of those principles which had originated in the French Revolution of 1830; but he would tell the Right Honour able Gentleman that a great revolution had been effected by himself, after 1829, in the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Ile had feared the pre valence of those principles, but he (Mr. Ferrand) would tell the Right Honourable Baronet that greater changes had been produced in this country by his measures, than any which had been effected by the French Revolution. [he Right Hon. Baronet had said, that when these changes had been effected, that it was necessary to raise up a great Conserva tive party. That party had been raised, and on it the Right Hon. Baronet had come come into power, but where, he would ask, was their great Conservative party now ? They had for their great motive of action attach men t to the in,tutions in Church and State, and it was t h e i r o b jec t t o maintain those institutions. And whatever might be the feeling of the Members of that House, he could assure them that he, as a Protestant Member for a Protestant constitu ency, could tell them, that this Bill was l oo k e d u pon with alarm by all the constituencies in the north of England. The Right Honourable Baronet had taunted the Roman Catholic M em b ers o f th a t House with having forgotten the pledges which they had given to the Government, but he (Mr. Ferrand) would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that the people of En g l an d wou ld taunt him with hav ing brokers all his pledges of attachment to the institutions of the country ; and he could assure him that the whole weight and respectability of the country was fearfully agitated and excited by the measure which he had introduced. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated on coming into power they would only retain it by continuing in their favour the confidence of the people and the weight of public opinion. Where, he would ask, was the weight of public opinion now? As in 11i29, not one-twentieth part of the population had expressed even Re slightest desire fur the passing of this Bill.—( Hear. ) The Right Hon. Baronet had come in with a majority of 91. He had filched power from the Noble Lord opposite, and had professed to walk in the direct path, and in tho light of the British constitution ; but he would beg to say that it was in the darkness rather than in the light that the Right Hots. Ba ronet desired to tread. On March 5, 1829, the Right Hon. Baronet had stated that in bringing in the Bill for Roman Catholic Emancipation he discarded all consideration of reli gious principles, and that it was a measure of State policy—and of State policy only. That his object was to give an equality of rights to the Roman Catholia population, and that if he supposed th a t an y m easure would result likely to be injurious to the Established Church, he would be the last man in the world to prop ose it. He had stated as one of those in juries, the adoption by the Roman Catholic priesthood of the titles of the Established Church in Ireland, yet in the Charita ble Bequests Act of last year, he had expressly acknowledged the right of members of the Roman Catholic Church to the titles of archbishops, bishops, and priests, when by the very enactment ho had inflicted a penalty of 10/. on the assump tion of any one of these titles. This was the way in which he redeemed his pledges. He would advise him to follow the injunction which he had given the other night to his Thm. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury, to at • (Aloe quit the b.nehes on which he now sat, anil to cress the House, for he charged him with groRF an.: most apos tacy from all ice principles which had brought him in:o power. The people of England felt that ti--re scene traitors to their interest. and if thoy were not to be foutiu io th.it House, t 11 , 4, were at least triliOrS to the of -talc; interest—great and de!estable r4i.urs to the Prole •taut pt nctlles.—. hear. ) The Bib now before them was, it possible, a greater injury to all the best interests of the country, and the people of England felt that their cot.fidenee had heen betrayed.— (Hear, hear.) He might cite the opinion of Lord Eldon.— (Great laughter from the Opposition benches.) Did Honou-able Gentlemen mean to say that the opinion of Lord Eldon was nothieg worth? He would take leave to tell the lion. Member for 13,sth that Lord Eldon was a greater lawyer thin himself, and he thUtiglqt that. if authority was to be acted on at all, the opinion of Lord Eldim was en titled to some weight. The Ministers at last. seemed to think that, it was necessary, for they had not hesitated to bring the name of the Sovereign into this debate in a way which was a ♦iolation of all usage, and he thought, therefore, to sneer at authority was at least inconsistent with good taste, but at any rate it should not prevent him from exposing the contemptible apostacy, which was a direct violation of the Act of Settle ment, and a contravention of the oath of supremacy—a complete destruction of the principles which had placed the royal family on the throne.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.") At. the last general election the Hon. Member for Lanca- ' shire mada use of a remarkable expression, when the Hon. Member for Nottingham had the indecency to introduce the name of the Queen, where he should not have done. The expression was, •• The Lord defend the Queen from bad ad visers and from the advice of an adverse Ministry," and to that exclamation most cordially did he say amen !—(Great laughter.) In conclusion, he begged to say that if the Go. vernment lould induce her Majesty to attach her signature to that measure, she would he committing an act equivalent to a declaration of the instability of the throne. Here an immense number of Hon. Members stood up, but Mr. SHEIL having caught the Speaker's eye, he said, Sir, I think it is extremely unfortunate—it is extremely to be la mented that no English Minister can ever confer even a small benefit upon Ireland, without doing mischief to himself.— (Hear, hear.) No doubt, Sir, a great deal of excitement has been created in this matter; but I do think that it i. a matter of a very gratifying nature to the people of Ireland, to have ob served that from the commencement of this discussion the Church of England party, which may he regarded as the safe guard of the religious pi (-Judie,* of this country, have prudentially abstained from taking any part in the scene this discussion has created ; but from the noble elevation on which it stands Las looked down with colt serenity on this, what I may well call sectarian affray, leaving entirely to this House the determina tion a'. it amongst those with whom it originated, namely, the Dissenters.—( Loud cheers.) Those Dissenters whose cause Irish Catholics were ever foremost to advance, and who lent their best aid and most strenuous efforts to those same Dissen ters when they sought fur the ab , .lition of the Test and Cor poration Acts.—(Cheers.) Yet those very men have stood apathetically by upon measures conducive to the advancement of the interests of Irish affairs ; but upon this occasion, they stand forward, en masse, in great array of fanati cal insurgency, and in a must determined and un-Christian spirit, contumaciously oppose this measure.—(Cheers.) I am not sorry for this ; but I am more than surprised, I am grieved to think that there also are such strenuous supporters of the Free Church of Scotland, and in favour of whom everyßoman Catholic Member in this house has voted. lam grieved, I say, to find in the Free Church of Scotland such a spirit of de termined hostility against those who so enthusiastically advo cated their cause.—( Hear.) But, I sat that this is a question in which they have no concern ; it is one in which they are not called upon to come out upon the voluntary principle ; it has nothing to do with the dogmas ; it contains no protest against the Regium Donlan; and yet they stand forward in prominent opposition, while the l'rotestant Church stands neutral.—(Hear, hear.) Strange to say, the moment this measure was propounded this boiler of Calvinistic wrath mei, flawed—the moment they saw a Minister of the Crown ends ae vouring to carry out a measure having for its object the im provement of the condition of the people of Ireland.—( Hear. ) In speaking upon this question upon a late occasion, I adverted to the advantages that would be likely to accrue to Ireland from it. I stated that it would be looked upon as an earnest of she benevolent intentions of the Government of the country, and that the minds of young Irishmen, serving their noviciate to the Catholic Church, would find in this measure the seeds of incalculable future good, and that in every parish in Ireland would be located a gentleman educated in principles, by the better inculcation of which his example would be the means of ensuring the hest possible results.—( Hear, hear. ) I will not now go over those grounds again, but instead of showing the advantages which would follow the passing of this measure, I will endeavour to exhibit the evil consequences that could be the certain result of its rejeetion.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If it be rejected it would lend a great impetus to the discussion of those from Ashton-under-Lyne, and other places.—(Laughter,) And when some Hon. Mem bers returned to their spiritual constituencies in the north— (Laughter)—their Calvinistic holinesses will be hailed with lugubrious solemnity, with the most dismal hosannahs in every direction.—(Laughter and cheers.) But in Ireland the people will not confine their complaints to expressions of discontent at the conduct of the Legislature; they will return with ten fold vigour to their demands for a repeal of the Union with this country. Let me ask, what will be the a esult of the rejection of this measure in that country, which by courtesy Son call " sister" —( Laughter)—in that country where there are seven millions of Roman Catholics—in that country where the Roan Ca tholics are the great depositaries of political power—in that country where the Roman Catholics return to Parliament two thirds of the Members which represent that country in this House—in that country where the Roman Catholic religion preponderates in its municipal corporations—in that country where the property, landed, funded, and mercantile is preserved by the Roman Catholics--in that country in which intelligence, public spirit, and determination, and all the other attributes which constitute a great nation, have been known to exist, and in that country where the Roman Catholics have made progress to the highest state of civilisation that is really sur prising. What, I say, will be the effect of the rejection of this measure in that country, already so discontented—a discontent so dark, so deep, and in my' mind so just.—( Hear, hear.) Alas, I fear that the effect of such an announcement will be a renewed demand fur the restoration of the Irish Parliament, and the speculators upon English ruin will then perhaps be tempted to turn their eyes upon Ireland in a mariner to call for the most serious meditation from Lord Aberdeen.— ( Hear, hear.) There can be no doubt of the fact, that the rejection of this measure will give the most serious impetus to the repeal agitation. Not because the people of Ireland set any value per se upon such a ss itling donation as 26,0001_ lint lic,ause we thine a demonstration will be given that the Go vernment of the country ne longer considers it necessary to act in compliance with the wishes of the people for the granting of a measure which has met with the approbation of both sides of the House.—(hear, hear.) When the union of Ireland with England was proposed, it was opposed by some of the ablest men in the Irish Parliament, upon the grounds that Irishmen would have no real representation here— that her voice would be swamped, and to the English aristocracy the interests and government of Ireland would be transferred. That prediction has unhappily been confirmed ; yet I must say that, though such is the fact,much of its bitterness has been taken away for the dignity of the despot, and has considerably diminished the baseness of the slave.—( Hear, hear.) If the country is not to be governed by independent men, but by Baptists, and Methodists, and Wesleyans, and Independents, and Moravians, I have no hesitation in saving thvt the repeal agitation will be renewed—(" Hear hear," and cheers)—and then, indeed, will the First Minister of the Crown have to make the Cabinet subservient to a conventicle.—(llear, hear.) And I tell these Dissenters that thsra will be men found in Ireland who will be prepared to take as bold a course as that adopted by the Hon. Member for Finsbury until their native Legislature has been restored, for they never will submit that the union of England with Ireland is to be maintained at the expense of ignominy, and that, therefore, they will consider it much better and more national to perish than submit to such degradation..-4 Loud cheers.) I have told you of the lan guage that will be used by others in Ireland, not the language that shall be used hy me.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) An Honourable Member says " Hear, hear," but I appeal to the just sense of this country, and to the just feeling of all whom I now see around me, whether I have drawn an exaggerated picture ?—( Hear, hear.) I say,' then, if you pay no regard to the condition of the people—if you reject this measure—the result will be to give a new impetus to repeal.—( Hear, bear.) I have spoken with ardour upon this subject ; but if I have suffered my pulse to beat with less temperance than I should have done, I am sure you will pardon me, and admit that I have had just cause of indignation, and have a stronger right to indulge in language of this sort than an Englishman should do.—( Hear, hear.) Will you make no allowance for our feelings when you con sider the language that has been used to our religion ?—( Hear, hear.) I am sure you will, and be willing to excuse me when you observe my blood boil with indignation at such a course. I say again that the repeal of the union will be promoted by the rejection of this measure. Are you prepared to adopt such a course, when you recollect that the first Minister of the Crown has declared in this House, that, at the hazard of civil war, he would resist the repeal of the union, and that announce ment was received with acclamation by this House ?—( Hear, hear.) Let me, then, ask lion. Members opposite whether they do not think the grant to Maynooth, mad other analogous measures, better than civil war ?—( Hear, hear.) I see the Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) in his place, and I beg to ask him what does he think of such an alternative? I know him to be a gentleman of the greatest benevolence and high mindedness, and I have always given him the humble homage of my praise. But let me ask the. Noble Lord, sloes it not occur:to him that one night of civil war would result in mere misery and devastation than would be committed in a hundred years in all the factories of England ?—( Cheers.) I know the Noble Lord will shrink with horror from such a tearful contin gency ; should he not then pause before he would recommend the adoption of that fatal policy which honour and hu manity concur in recoiling front ? (Loud cheers. ) Sir, I say, conciliate in time the Catholic clergy of Ireland as a great intellectual body.—( Cheers. ) There are three thou sand men—(Cheers)—firm, courageous, arid devoted—they are concentrated in their episcopacy—their influence is diffused, but it is universal. It is collected, centered, and enthroned in each individual breast of 8,000,000 of people. It has been well said that the influence of the Catholic priesthood of Ireland is powerful for good.—( Hear, and cheers.) lam willing to admit that the same power might by some strange perversion be turned to evil. I concede to you that the influence of the Catholic priesthood in Ireland has carried many measures ; they have shown you that they could be hurtful as your enemies, but, when recon ciled, they have always been your fastest and firmest friends. I admit that, in 1828, it was the Roman Catholic priesthood that carried the election of a large majority of Members favourable to Catholic Emancipation.— ( Cheers.) We all know that the election for Clare was carried by the same influence—(Cheers)—and, Sir, I do not hesitate to say that it is by the influence of the Catholic priesthood that the Repeal Association has been sustained. The requisition for the meeting at Clontarf was signed by twenty-five Catholic priests.—'Loud cheers.) But let Maynooth be put down to-morrow, a Catholic seminary would be established, where the doctrine of passive obedience would be inculcated. and a mose sullen resistance would grow up. Sir, I trust that we have enough upon the records of history —enough in our own experience—to show us that the loyalty of the Roman Catholic priesthood is a pearl not to be thrown away.— ( Cheers.) Sir, I ask you to look to the conduct of the Irish priesthood in Upper Canada.—( Cheers.) Every one of the Governors, over a range of several years, concurs with his pre decessor in bearing testimony to the fidelity and loyalty of the Roman Catholic priests in that country, who were of Irish origin.—(Cheers.) And why was that? You placed them in trust with the State—you gave them one-half of the ec clesiastical endowment of Canada, and you deviled a portion of the revenue of the Protestant Church in that colony for the education of the Roman Catholic priesthood.—( Cheers.) Now, Sir, if you have the misfortune to go to war with a country bordering upon your valuable colony, you would find your account in the virtues, in the loyalty, and the gratitude of the Irish Roman Catholic priesthood. I ask you, then, why it is that the influence which you do no t di s d a i n to Use in Canada refusetoexercisesvitl y r o h u happier allies a pliierres s m ult e sin i gra lre n l i a s nd t: f you can convert them into Canada, why will you not make them devoted subjects within r you can your natural boundary? From leaders of agitation convert them into the agents of peace. Frosts beacons from to your enemies whichy o y u o u willea de rie m convert v themore u r isnetcoy:toyu, m r bul warks,orge defence, than if you planted a cannon on every promontory in the island. Sir, I regret that this measure was not brought forward at an earlier period. I hope that this mea- snout. of a series of me:Hit:es by %slly!. the two ev(it'h heartfelt r'sliT"."'"'"'""'"—'-**."..".""'-"...".."'"..re is, as the Right Hon- ]baronet stated, it be b iiind together.— (Chic , ) sir, 1 have heard with op. pleasure the declaration made by the Right Hen% posite, that he was guilty ot errtir.—(Cheers, ". a I for the sale said by a Catholic ieacher, it is worth while to received wish to reni;na the Right Roil. Gentle.ma that ll will b•- of repentance. Sir, I must say that this Bt . f the people with the greatest welcorrie by the crest boy objectionof direct Ireland. It has been said that there is some a measure because it has been brought forward r Ito this is meet in reference to the Sovereign, Ido not think it House to refer to the present feelings of the S t. ; r :l 5 an y (Cheers.) But it is legitimate on my part to say. t, l l .L' e " t a ft u rtr in ie e s n .s c*Pill' policy bleb her Majesty's Government may d events, cannot help recognising, so far as her 1 we ,, etn a of Nab.ocpsittyh, c s obnebit•ni._ tutional influence is exe:cised, her regard for the 1 2 e ° 3 ' to her Irish subjects. Sir, we have heard, and lampl a I)rointment rileefaetriotno atth e s o c c e e in u g rre A n i c r e . , O th , a c t o h n e n r el A l lianjehsitsymeuxrpssald heefrring,;,,,, and her Majesty instructed Earl de Grey, on his appe over of to the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland, to exert allitehern Isis office to conciliate the people of Ireland.-0- . o f mY , I was then, and I am now, convinced that the hapf h il e n r e hears. country is one of the objects warest and dearest to (Cheeing with joy. She will see there her own beauties ere n et rs. ) She will go to Ireland with her count e.naLieleiebreos:l; benevolence reflected in every face.—(Cheers.) or she pill if she go surrounded with the pomp of the Court, t o have Justice, and Mrrcy, ar.d Hope to wait o (Cheers. ) And if the brother of her father wilaPsasav with enthusiasm—a just enthusiasm, English sovereign who set his foot in the spirit .1n good Ireland, with what blessings will she be received ' be Lu" pure, wife, the good mother, the pattern of her sex, t dist' honest, the undissemblieg, the sincere, with the bria c o , t o rches° It dem in all the world glittering on her unblemishehee _.) JI and the love of Ireland within her heart !—(Loud c mere lassie is not for the purpose of resting herself from the i s for t he tulle of royalty that :he proceeds to Ireland. It ; ithusiast.o purpose of looking on her brave, chivehimst Ito 01 ,0 because he was tell_lCl-toFtat people—of seeing with her own eyes, and feeling wo ed in that heart, what is best to be done fur Ireland. Engsg w betl noble study, she will, I trust, remain there long ; a s_ . "'" five , & the day of her departure shall arrive, it is not, m mere imagination on my part to say that she will Ireland, and pray that betore she may have attained ... 32 be itian of her age, whose morning has been so bright; it en d jae given to her, by the Disposer of all human event . ,, e w_ ed lot, Inland with perpetual peace; that it may be her bl " all her oar surrounded with advisers whe shall participate in the the nanimoua feelings, to make reparation to Ireland t r : 11 calamities she has suffered, for all the tears shed, forhas e _ a t h e agonies endured, and for all the wrongs which it h D r Meted °ll fault of your fathers and your misfortune to have in me country.— ( Loud and continued clieeiing.) m a ; e sty's - Mr. LAW complained of the introduction of her 2 %c o name in the debate. He did not concur with thos e _ onc f. thought that by this measure they would jr u etan e, tkhebarrictrr hate any religious or political party in . )1. 10 This measure should be considered in all its beart.ni, N ay, consequences—its natural consequences—should be fulty_,.., and impartially discussed. (The Right Hon. Gent.leo7foujed appeared to be reading his speech from a documen_ii.qed by somewhat in the shape of a lawyer's brief, was here art i ' t ore loud cries of " Order, order," and " Read, read.") If a ce it not ;he pleasure of the House to hear him , he would at . ?",„ es e, down. Let the Hon. Member who so often cried out r eliv e read," and thus interrupted the speaker, stand up an a l l on ly is his sentiments. That was the proper course. It was r e ci conformity with the rules of decency and e g oo (Hear, hear)—that an Hon. Member shoul d h Without to deliver his sentiments as long as he did s t o rot tr ans' hurting the feeling of any Hon. Member, and was ? 10 gressing the rules of the House. He was only 'Which be what he considered to be his bounden duty—a duty e „ re sen owed to the constituents who had suffered him to r . s uch them in that House. He knew not why he should reFt r ite he treatment—there was nothing in the manner in which expressed his sentiments, nothing disrespectful to the f atly 0 0 . e. of the Government—nothing hurtful to the feelings 0 ' e e . 4 1 —nothing of excitement or anger. He repeated ade pts% fairly expressing his opinions ; and he could not tr. eas ed what right Hon. Members had to put him down by u tt er sin! less clamour raised on this occasion.— (Great la - gh t ‘ ci se " cries of " Hear, Hear.") If they would permit him ets ible. his opinions, he would put them in as few wor ds as P e at the He did not deny that he occasionally glanced his _O li o bee: paper he held in hand.—(Great laughter.) He an d b e . accustomed to put down the heads of his discourse, pose, done so on the present occasion. —( Renewed laught.e, r ;_i. c atios interruptions had lengthened beyond measure the nn e w ha lo which, had he been allowed to proceed, he would ba d ri concluded. —( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear.") ,_• ec ts objection whatever to his Roman Catholic fellow-suel eosee sessing an equality of civil rights and privileges, but r tn o s ane to the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church , 0 . tion any step leading thereto, was a very different thiT he e etr would as shortly as possible state the objections whit 2 , 4 0 , 1 : tertained to this measure.—( The Right Hon. Gentle in 11l apecared to be reading the document which he h r d r ead' hand, arid was again assailed by loud cries of " Re, s ) :Se b.: and " Order, order." After a pause, he proceedeo cetboli sure the question ot the endowment of the Roma n t he Church had elicited an avowal f; om the_ :Chancellor of br to its e dt chequer, to the effect that if ever this matter was „ t under their consideration, he for one would never eons being endowed by the revenues of the Protestan t Churceneete Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the question of merit was not involved in the Bill before the House. tro y Is, Mr HUTT rose to eider. He believed it va s con ren' the standing order of the House that any Member sh °ll his speeches.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.'') ffen , e r Mr. LAW wished to know by what right the sp0 t tleman presumed to say, at that distance from tgLesbterl which lie stood, that he was reading his speeches.-0 's,4 1,,,,ecn, The Hon. Member asserted that he was reading h , and had called upon the Right Hon. Gentle man in ending be to oblige him to desist. He denied that he was _ 0 s ell't; speeches, and the interruption was worthy o :the ego tr, the Hon. Gentleman advocated. The only differeo c ,,,,, won!: statement which he should be enabled to lay before the e ; t post, be, that for want of this document he was in d a nger _i ste s 0! ing his arguments, which he had arranged under sePalenusel distinct heads. It was an ungenerous interruption , _. oct ice,r; c ontrary to the practice of Parliament , and to the re, t Gentlemen.—( Cries of Hear, hear," and " Order , ° ,, t . tits' Mr. OSBORNE rose to order. It was contr ar y to orn'etrl any Hon. Member should toll another that he acted e° to the practice of a gentleman.—( Loud cries of " Hear, b,eeiese The SPEAKER thought the Hon. Member di d Pe' I theta.age in an offensive sens. letS L gu AW thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman for tbe obliging and just interpretation of what he had said, rot,/ pretation in which from the bottom of his heart he belie of tbel Hon. Gentleman who interrupted him was convin ced truth of, befere lie made the interruption.—(L oud n tlenies " Order, order," " No, no.") The Right Hun . Ge w oe I took up the document again and appeared to be readil e floe' amid renewed laughter.) He must. appeal to the 1 11 ,g_ t floe/ e Gentleman whether he was to be the only person in tt e l o seetle who was not at liberty to arrange the heads of his arg ot , fsiri (Great laughter)—so that he might lay his sentire!ro_. riari before the House. If the object was to prevent him f . r tw oo . l4 . ceeding it would be successful only to this extent, tha t edr icbll prevent him from mentioning most of those points en t , „Ater . ,,./ rested his resistance to this measure.—( Renewed la"vjt Or e This debate ought to be conducted as it had beer"„nt very hard that he should riot he permitted to rePr e— tt otili feelings of his constituents, who were not inferior in file b character, or ability, to those who interrupted Lim* pet i t heard the solitary disclaimer of the Chancellor of thyheeesmi quer.—( Here the Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to t ; s; ing from the same aer, and the cries of " i s iou " Read " were renewed.) Well, if he had no oilier % t 0e..., would throw himself upon the indulgence of the o D o ly a fo (Cries of " Hoar, hear.") He repeated that hi° b i n s. o i was to perform his duty to those who sen t , been o f the profession to which he belonged, he ha d b oas muds in the habit of making notes of the 0 00 0 ,2 his argument, that he could not trust t°,lle b oo for the arrangements of those points.—( Laughter.) o f tb_A been in the course of stating that the apparent coyn ess who had spoken of the endowment of the Catholic elerrof tb induced him to enter more fully into the conside rati ?: question. He did not find that the suggestion of the fat Hon. Gentleman met with any discouragement front O a of, Hon. Baronet ; nor was it upon any sudden thong„btailet% tion that the Right Hon. Gentleman exchanged 04 ° far„ with the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of Sg„a te „tlett l ; Home Department. The Right Hon. and Learned G e d' c ati° ) had clearly stated what was the nature of the e ir . Je e p required for the Roman Catholic clergy, and he (~ pa' e was aware that he could point to the authority Of .. tbe e be illustrious statesman than Edmund Burke, as to for t o cessity of seclusion for those who were intend ed Roman Catholic Priesthood ; but he did not think that'isiisra best mode of educating those who were to live i 0 old tr o society of Protestants and Roman Catholics. It e ",,d e_j /e recollected that there was a second Catholic question, • - floi l i a more important one than the first. The fiat 8114 114 • Catholic measure only removed civil disabilities, and t h e the Hon. Baronet drew a broad line of distinction bet sole,. removal of civil disabilities and the establishment of t" .. . e u re Catholic Church. Now, he maintained the present Incic a the' je 0 , but the initiative of the establishment of the Roma ° t 101 11 ,,i Church.—( Hear, hear.) This was the most import...,,„,n Catholic question they had ever been called on to c onagi' it )5 he for one was not surprised that, when the alarm c iei b., spread throughout the country, the 'different constit ue ! instructed their representatives to give it the stronge ° , a ble 01 tion, and sent in petitions against it which made the 4 '45 that House groan. He should not be surprised if thw_ x. or tion of this measure should cast England, and Seoti a° oo ' dor the a part of Ireland into an agitation of as many yes" , a for and as violent, as that which accompanied the ineasn',; o lick,‘ removal of the civil disabilities of the Roman Gat" e ierw' (Hear.) He ventured to warn the House from if 0 1 into a course, the evils of which it would be diffie u T 0 0 0 4 impossible, to overstate.—( Hear, hear.) It was ro dello s question of whether the Right Hon, and Learned G e n ie t b opposite (Mr. Sheil) was to have a distinguished pla t dio s „, House—whether he was to take part in considertoilib questions which came before Parliament, together Woe Protestant fellow-countrymen. It was a far different 10 OA°. —the uestion whether the Protestant religion sho u ld Ifou', gether subverted —(Oh, oh.) The question before tit c b ty" and country was simply this, whether the title upon eew olio' Crown of England had been heretofore founded—(fl earr ,..., titolf ther the Act of Settlement should he adcad letter on the' fide book—whether the article of the union, the fundamental s queried. that measure, should be utterly rendered null- - th e was, whether that question should be infringed and on ° 0 0: —(‘‘ Year, hear,' and " Oh, oh.") Were they s no t oe r l wiser than their ancestors, that they should go back t ie ply to the revolution, but even to the reformation, f or do pose of subverting them ? And what were they °ode s , fur? To support a Roman Catholic priesthood market of sedition—(" Hear, hear,' and " Oh, 0 " 0 0- 0 stimulated to acts of sedition the excitable people of ob e —(" Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.") And fr re el o t t h e funds were the means to be supplied ? taxes of the country, or it may be 31.°1,0 tai revenues of the Protestant Establishment in Ireland. „to (i v recollect that the next motion which they would hrbigelem cuss would be this very question, on which the 1 -10 1. 0 09 ' O O for Sheffield had a motion. Before he went on to ""' ee eat to other portions of this question—(Oh, oh )--before beg to discuss the other portions of the question. he w" bin ), bit assure the House, that in anything that fell frogn no t anything that should fall from him, it wa s of intention to say anything hurtful to the feel i "g e de cl one in that House or out of it. On the contrary , he diope ° , 4 o with a sincerity which no person had a right to of tbiii that he respected as much as any man the opine: 001 a who differed from Inm upon religious subjects. r i ant that the removal of the Roman Catholic disahihtbet ael e s measure for which the Roman Catholics ought t lif t be greteful to the Right Hon. Baronet. But this wal7„ g og " e b, and separate question altogether, for it was the ins' i t - cho r be E °man Catholic Church coordinate with the Pretestenvicei o p If he was trespassing on the House—as he was C 0 11 ° 00, 1 04 was—( Cheers and laughter)—he must again throvi i „,, bel l t bo the indulgence of the House, --( Laughter. l idere_a that her Majesty's Government had not duly o vs 'i l ito',o* important consequences which were involved in the the pi e sl tion of this measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman t i e oll e o r ber for Edinburgh had accused the Right Hon. G ee d ° id the head of the Government with having introdu e _ s lop sure not based on the previous principles w hich he n6 ea tle rP o e when in Opposition, and yet the Right Hon . WO eel the Member for Edinburgh said that there 0 10°00 difference in principle between an annual an d tPole. grant. The two assertions were totally irreconeuc