The Sun. — London, England, 1851-03-12 00:00:00

' :4; 2 4; , :, ,1*430 4f '440 4 4 IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. (THIS DAY.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly after Twelve o'clock. PETITIONS. Mr. H. DRUMMOND presented a petition from a i place n Surrey in favour of the County Rates and Ex penditure Bill. Mr. HEALD presented a petition from Stockport against Papal aggression. Mr. FREWEN presented a petition from a place in Sussex in favour of the extension of the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill to Ireland. Several petitions were presented against the Eccle siastical Titles Bill from various parts of the country. Mr. M. GIBSON presented several petitions from Manchester in favour of the County Rates and Expendi ture Bill. Mr. FEARGUS O'CONNOR presented a petition from Exeter in favour of winding up the Land Com pany; also a petition from Ashton-under-Lyne to the same effect. Mr. 0. RICARDO presented a petition from the City of Worcester in favour of Copyhold Enfranchisement. Mr. THORNELY presented petitions from the Roman Catholics of Bilston against the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill. Mr. CHILD presented a petition from the inhabitants of Thisleslane, Staffordshire, praying that suah a mea sure might be passed as would effectively vindicate the independence of the Crown of this kingdom. Mr. DRUM.M.OND presented a petition from Ham bleton Union in favour :of the County Rates Bill, and several others to the same effect. BOARD OF HEALTH. On the motion of Mr. FREWEN, copies of the memorials presented to the Board of Health with re ference to the Public Health Act being put in force for the borough of Hastings were ordered. COUNTY RATES AND EXPENDITURE BILL. Mr. M. GIBSON moved the second reading of the County Rates and Expenditure Bill. The Bill was in almost all its essential particulars the same es the measure of last -essioii; but some slight alterations had been made to render it more favourable with the magistracy, and t mak tee carrying out of its provisions more easy and effi,:ient. A great number of petitions had been pre sented is favour of the Bill, many of which came from B sards of Guardians. He trusted, therefore, that the House would allow the Bill to go into Committee. Sir J. PAKIN iTON opposed the second reading of the Bill, and contended that toe alterations that had been made in the measure had rendered it even more objection • able than the m astir, of last session. He would not deny that tuta:.ion said repre.eetation ought to go to geth r, but tie asserted that in this Bill that principle was attempted to be put in force in a manner that would work the gri-atest injustices. Another serious change was that which proposed to take away from the magis tracy the control and management of county gaols. He did not consider this a regulation for the management of county-rates merely, but a direct assault on the functions of county magistrates by a side-wind. This clause of itself swept away at least nine Acts of Parliament. This was also the case with lunatic asylums, the super vision of which was taken away from the county magis trates in the same way. The Bill was brought before the House last session, and it was referred to a Com mittee by general consent. The Right Lion. Gentleman was chairman of it, and if Hon. Members would only take the trouble to look at ;he evidence, they would see the whole weight of evidence west to show that such a Bill could never, by any possibility, be brought into proper working, and that the effect of the Bill would be to exclude from the management of county affairs a large number of gentlemen who had a large pecuniary stake in the country, and who were in fact the real rate-payers. The Bill waa,.a bad, .mischievous Bill, and the House would do better to negative it at once on the second reading, without at tempting to battle through the 174 clauses, in the hope to elicit something like a principle out of it in one corner or the other. Th Hon. Mcinber concluded by moving that :he Bill Le real a second time this day six months. Sir GEORGE GREY said that, as the Hon. Baronet had directly appealed to him and also to the House on his motion for the amendment, he must at once say that he did not at all concur with him in his opinion against the principle of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He did not say that there were not many clauses of the Bill which re quired amendment, but he conceived that a Bill of this ex tensive and important character would necessarily require much consideration by the House, and would of neces sity receive much amendment by the Legislature before it became the law of the land.—(Hear, hear.) Had the Bill never before been before the House, he might per haps have taken a different course, but when he recol lected how fully its whole principle had been discussed last year he thought it was needless to go over the same ground again. All the amendment which the Bill required could very readily be given to it in Committee, and at the proper stage he should be quite prepared to state objections to those portions of it to which he could not assent. He would, however, now say that he thought that it would be a great calamity for the country if the county magistrates were deprived of those powers which they had se long exercised ter its benefit. The Honourable Baronet had said that the effect of this Bill would be to prevent the magistrates in a great measure from sitting on the fitiaxcial boards. Now with that he could nut at all agree. Oa the contrary, his own impression was, that they would still continue to act precisely as they had done. He certainly ob jected to the fourth clause which restricted the free holders from voting for na igistrat , As, for his own im pression was that the restriction ought to be the other way ; and that members of the board should not be elected because they were magis trates, but that magistrates should have a right to be elected because they had the necessary qualifica tion. He would by no means pass by the boards of guardians, but he would not say that the county financial board; ehould be constituted exclusively out of them. He tnought that the rate-payers ought to be left entirely without restrictions in their choice, though he must say that his own opinion va= quite in unison with that of the Honourable Member f-'r Manchester; for ha believed that the best modification that could by adopted would be to have one half of the belief coin posed of magistrates, and the otner halt of other persons.—(dear, hear.) He had him self, yesterday, presented a petition from the county which he bed the honour to represent (Northumberland), and in the letter which accompanied it from the gentle man by whom it was confided to him, it was stated that they did not apprehend any great or immediate change in the position of affairs. His (Sir G. Grey's) opi nion was precisely similar, for it was his decided conviction that after this Bill was passed the magistrates would find themselves just in the same places as those which they previously occupied.— (Hear, hear) He thought that the Hon. Baronet had hardly sufficiently obse'ved the difference between the two parts into which the Bill was naturally divided. There was a great difference between the duties of re ceiving and expending the county rates. The functions of the magistrate were purely executive, and therefore when elected on the beorde, they would have nothing, or next to nothing to do with the subordinate business of the recipients of the rates. The llou Baronet had asked him whether he was prepared to take upon himself the dnty of altering the amount of the constabulary force in the different counties. To this he was prepared to say, that without the concurrence of the magistracy he ,thought not; but that if the Secretary of State, after communi cating with the magistrates, received their sanction, be ought to have the power of directing that amount. Towards the close of last session he had been asked whether the Government would take charge of the Bill; and if not, what course the Government intended to pursue. His reply was that be could not compromise the Government in any way, but that during the recess be would give it his best at tention and d,cide upon the course he ought to pursue. He had done so, and when the proper time came he should he prepared to enter upon the details of the mea sure. Of its p rinciple he en ti re l y approve d, an d s h ou ld therefore vo:e for the second reading of the Bill. Mr. W. MILES had listened with gnat attention to what ha: fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey), and could not help saying that he hid given the best possible reasons why this Bill should emanate from the Goverutnenh After some explanation between Mr. Miles and Sir Geor4e Grey, the former geetleman proceeded to gay, that the effect of the Bill in his opinion would be to reduce the qualification of the several members of the b , ard, and toe consequence would be that those magistrates who were most ac quainted with- financial operations would every year become subject to a fresh election, and most probably, after having become acquainted with their duties, Would be superseded by other persons, who, in all p ro bability, would be totally ignorant of them. He should like to know exceedingly how the petitions in favour of th e Bill had been got up, because he was afraid they had emanated from boards of guardians under an erro two im p re s s i on , which was fostered by Circular issued by the slitn`-' to whom so much refer ence had aheadY - been made.—(Hear, hear.) When the co untry ',EvrPsßeti its opinion in fay.,ur of a particuler c. , ty f the House to attend to it but he much -r "` end witheut hesitation, it was the ctu'y w b,,o-ler there v v „„ general feelin g ve n ry favour doubted th i „ ; m , s se:... --(EL er, of ) With reg g ar l d to his owe count'', I" ' lcci)u ,;' t t h * e eeu'e be bett er k i pt , or more vigilant) a, 4 , nn" e ,""see nee bad b.-en, that yearlast the rates vied only amounted to l i d. in the p a ctual ex penditure of the year, excluding e (e t course the sums pate _overnme nt f 13 0251., which wa s very prosecu tion, wal rio in.ro tri4ri as very indeed when h. tr44tiiiivir• , of the country 0.4 he ) lie to t,hl,-,qtion to tits.. represHita!j" are ' i naPAny ex . petal e. but tale Bill went father than that—(H ear ht,r.) It was treught >ri tl dang" . , and unt il be saw the to “ter taken up try Guvernee et • he must d ec lin e to stirsifo - f any Bill c ruing from a private source, end thei efora he should vote fur the atn-ndreent.—( Hear, hear.) M.-. HUME c !nsidered this wag a subj ct. and high •they wastime l egislate l imrrtnt I upon it. There was no tieessi.y for further inquiry, nor ought they to be deterred from proceeding with this Bill by the alarm rained by the Hoe. Member for Droitwich. .He ta d t of the delicate interest they were deali ng P r tlattbliseed and valuable institut ion crirsr es toe`ftd,rmine, and warned them to , Pts • legislated on this subject.— , 1 1*5 11.4 Why, that was the very psi o i ti tek g ifehit reforming municipal corpora ' iii ja r? , Vi n e . T - e n that legislation could ohs, til nn ts, thou ghco it try, wo a u a ld i c t rel i t n te N r 3 fiHE terfered with an aneient end long-cherished in, eee bc'eu realiz,d ?—(Elear, bear.) Why, su tar from their legis lation having given rise to disaffection, it had led to an improved state !af things, and given universal satisfaction to the people. He denied that the evidence of Mr. Roberts on this subject was unworthy of attention, and joined issue with the Honourable Gentleman who last addressed them upon the question he had raised about the bona fide character of the petition.—(Hear, hear.) He was almost ashamed to argue in favour of this Bill, its utility and necessity were so apparent-- (Hear.) It needed no lengthy reasoning to establish the fact, that mosey was better and more economically expended by responsible boards, answerable for every thing they did, than by those who were accountable to no body for the due and proper performance of their functions.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, that was the very principle contained in that Bill, and he should do all in bis power to get it passed into a law.—(Hear.) The expense of the police and prisons was in a very un satisfactory state, and it was necessary that a great change should be made in their management, in which he thought the rate-payers should have a share. In his opinion it would be to the interest of the ma gistrates to disentangle themselves from the con test in which they were now engaged with the rate-payers. This was a Bill which should be taken up by her Majesty's Government, and he hoped it would be allowed to pass the second reading.—(Hear.) Did the Hon. Members opposite think that by refusing their assent to the measure they would promote a better un derstanding between landlords and tenants ?—(Hear.) It was only right and fair that the ratepayers in counties should be placed on the same footing as those in bo roughs; and the Committee which had sat on the sub ject, as well as the Government, and a vast number of petitions presented to the House, had all agreed that such a course of legislation was reasonable, just, and proper. On these grounds he hoped Hon. Members would give their vote in favour of the second reading. Mr. WODEHOUSE admitted that during the last 20 years the expenditure in the county of Norfolk had very much increased, but he believed not more so than in other counties. It was his conviction that the Bill was not called for, and he entirely concurred with the Right Hon. Baronet who moved the amendment, that it would have the effect of introducing a body of men to the proposed boards, who, from their situation in life, could not give the necessary attention to those subjects which would be brought before them. He should vote against the Bill. Mr. W. PATTEN said he quite agreed in the opinion expressed by several Hon. Members that a measure of this kind should be brought forward by the Govern ment.—(Hear, hear.) He had some objections to the details of the Bill, which he would not now enter into, but of this he was quite certain that there was a growing feeling in the country that rate-payers should have some control over the county expenditure, and to the attainment of that end he weuldaiBe his utmost exer tions.—(Hear.) He should vote for the second reading, believing that, with the cooperation of the Govern ment, they might pass a Bill which would give satisfaction to all parties.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He deprecated entering at present into the details of the measure, the simple question before the House being whether they should or should not affirm the principle that ratepayers were entitled to some control over the expenditure of counties. He should support the second reading. Mr. ELLIS gave his testimony to the truth of the as sertion that there was a strong and growing feeling in favour of legislation on this subject, but this did not arise from any disrespect for, or distrust of, the manage ment of the magistrates, but from a feeling that taxation and representation should go together. The question was not a mere tenant one, because the parties who felt them selves most aggrieved-were the small owners of property, who entertained the belief that they ought to have some control over the expenditure of their own money. Mr. DRUMMOND admitted there was a growing de sire in favour of some such a measure, but he was at a loss to understand how they could pass any Bill which would give any real control to ratepayers. lie thought parties were greatly deceived en the subject, and that not one shilling of expense would be saved by the Bia. They used the word " responsibility," which was eternally bein g pronounced in their ears without having any clear or definite idea behind it.—(Laughter.) He very much questioned whe ther the Bill would answer without giving much stronger powers to the Secretary of State. If these,boards were formed they would see upon them, as in the case of unions, persons of short-lived interest doing exactly what the Hon. Member opposite often wished to do, settling matters of Enance without any reference to the future.—(A laugh.) Though he did not agree with the provisions of the Bill, he should not, believing the principle involved in it a most impor tant one, object to giving his assent to the second reading. Sir H. VERNEY supported the Bill, and stated that at a recent election there was hardly any point taken up more strongly by the tenant-farmers and rate-payers than that of having some representative body to control the expenses of counties. Mr. SPOONER denied that on that side of the House any opposition was intended to the principle of giving a share in the control management of their finances to the country ratepayers, but the present Bill was a most clumsy and absurd means of carrying out this principle. Mr. RICE supported the Bill, bat had no objection to see it considerably altered in Committee. Captain PELHAM supported the amendment in the hope that the Government would be induced to bring forward some measure which would answer the ends in view. _ _ Mr. ROBERT PALMER concurred in the opinion that this measure ought to be taken up by the Govern ment, and with this view he would urge his lion. and Learned Friend the Member for Droitmch to withdraw his amendment and allow the Bill to pass a second read ing, on the understanding that it should pass into a Se lect Committee for the purpose of being considered in detail. Mr. DEEDES admitted that there was a growing feeling in the country in favour of some measure of this nature, and he should be inclined to vote for the second reading if the Right Hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill would consent to the Bill being sent up stairs, which: course he, for one, would consider as transform ing the measure into a Government Bill. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Hon. Baronet the Secret - ,ry of State was willing to serve on any Commit tee which might be appointed ou the Bill, and to state there those amendments which he thought necessary in the Bill, hut it was scarcely fair to expect more from him.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. M. GIBSON said that he should not think it de sirable to go into Committee for the purpose of taking vidence, for he thought they had quite sufficient before ahem; but if they were to go into Committee with e chance of coming out again with a Bill carrying with it something of the nature of a Government measure, I , e should be quite willing to consent to such a course. He wished to say one word in reply to the Hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakiogton). The Hon. Baronet had referred to the evidence of one gentle man who appeared before the Committee, and stated that it was insufficient. I❑ answer to that, he might say that the gentleman referred to had thought it right to speak only from his own experience. With respect to Lord Stradbroke the Hon. Baronet had stated that his Lordship had objected to many parts of the Bill, but he had omitted to say that Lord Stradbroke was, in fact, favourable to the constitution of county financial boards. If, therefore, his consent was necessary for this Bill to go to a Select Committee, he should be ready to assent to such a proposition if it was understood that no evi dence was to be taken, but that the Bill should be con sidered.with a •iew to its further progress. Ho trusted, therefore, that the Hon. Baronet would, with this agree ment, withdraw his amendment. Mr. HENLEY said that as the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department had intimated his apprehen sion of the difference between the administrative and executive powers of the magistracy, he thought that it would have been much better if the Right Hon. Baronet had introduced a measure proposed by himself. Ile was not at all surprised to hear the Right Hon. Uentleman lie;Mensber for Manchester say that he was:quite:op posed to receive evidence, for be was quite sure that if any evidence were taken stsch a case would be mach out that, he would. not have the lice to bring so bad a Bill before the House again.—(Efear, hear, and a laugh.) From what had occurred to-day the Bill was placed in an entirely different position to that which it formerly held, and he should therefore place himself en tirely in the hands of his Hon. Friend and either vote with him if he pressed the House to a division, or if he withdrew his amendment be ready also to withdraw his own opposition.—(Bear, hear.) He would, however, say, that after the Bill came out of the Com mittee be should consider it to be invested with all the weight of Government responsibility. Sir J. PAKINUTON said that he also felt that the Bill was placed in a very different position, and should therefore withdraw his amendment. Be would, how ever, observe, that in speaking of Mr. R)bert Smith's evidence he had stated what he had heard upon authority. Under the circumstances, and considering that the Bill would now have a Governmental character, he would withdraw his amendment. The amendment was than withdrawn, atid:the Bill was read a second time. EXPENSES OF PROSECUTION BILL. On the tno ion of Sir G. GREY that this Bill be read a second time, a conversation ensued, in which Lord Ebrington, Mr‘ Forbes, Mr. Packe, Mr. Alderman Sid ney, and Mr. Henley totsk part, the purport of which was to show that the expense of rresecntions had in creased, that the Bill was a good all, bat that it would not relieve the agriculturists trom an unequal rating. Mr. T. EGERTON sugg ,, sted that it was advisable to p+y clerk of assize and sessi , ns by salaries and compel them to get up prosecutions on behalf of the public. Mr. FREWEN hoped the 8.11 would be made appli cable to Scotland and the Isle of 4isn. Mr. HUME was of opinion th.st the present mode of paying for prosecutions was based upon an errotte , us principle, and the sooner therefore is public r - osecutor was appointed, and a simple and unifor.o .syst,ra of pro t,cutin,,, criminals adopted all over the eouutry the b -tter•—(Elear, hear ) with the 4..s S t i.r G. GREY promised that all these valuable sug sons should have his best consideration. Hs agreed lion. Gentleman who last addressed ' the House . '11E" some more efficient check . ought to be exercised over the sxp en „, • House might depend d ncurred tor prosecutions, and the :subject had not upon h. it that this branch of the two or three years escap edtheeort.pen2aoes of assize had been re is attention.. Within the last ,000/.—(Hear)—and the re duced by upwards the same rules an darrangements itw. which had led to that beneficial result ( a il s intended to p h u e hear.) r l ) e ex tend to other large counties.— proTshee question relating to. the appointment of a cutor was surrounded with con • siderable difficulty, but creationofficer was not y e t con- N, LONDON, totnnlated, it was hoped th. erect ca which would be ,;•:, ; , ',4:sent and economical prosecutions on behalf of the public. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed this day week. The Salmon Brood (Ireland) Bill was withdrawn. APPRENTICES AND SERVANTS BILL. Mr. BAINES, in moving the second reading of this Bill, recalled the attention of the House to the Sloanes' case, and other similar cases, which had recently oc curred, and said this Bill had been introduced with the view of preventing a recurrence of such offences. The law was defective in this respect. If a a master or a mistress neglected to provide a servant or an apprentice with sufficient food and sustenance, the criminal law could take ao cognizance of the matter if the apprentice or the servant were not an infant of tender years, and although in the recent case Jane Wil bred could have sustained a civil action against the Sloanes for the recovery of damages, the judges held that the offenders could not be indicted for a criminal offence, inasmuch as Jana Wilbred was upwards of 16 years of age. Now that was an unjust law, and one of the objects of this Bill was to remedy that defect. Another defect in the existing law was this—no persons ill-using a servact or apprentice who might be in their employ could be prosecuted for an assault unless it were shown that in inflicting that ill treatment they were ac tuated by a criminal intent. The offence of such per sons was only considered by the existing law as amounting to a misdemeanour, and could only be prosecuted accordingly. A third defect he had yet to state, which, perhaps, was not of less im portance than either of the other two. As the law now stood, no provision was made for the cost of prosecu tions in cases like those he had just specified, and in the event of no benevolently-disposed parsons taking up the cause of any poor and much injured creature like Jane Wilbred, and undertaking to defray the ex penses of bringing her persecutors to justice, they ran the risk of altogether escaping the punishment which such conduct merited. Now he could not help think ing that such a defect in the law was incompatible with a due regard for the interest and well-being of society, and while, therefore, this Bill provide that all indivi duals neglecting to supply young persons under 18 years of age, who might be in their service, with sufficient and proper food and sustenance, or who should assault or ill-treat them, should be liable to be criminally prosecuted, and punished with imprisonment and hard labour; it would also provide for paying the costs which would attend the effectual prosecution of such offenders. :There was another defetc in the law which he thought ought to be deal; with. When a young person was hired out of a workhouse, at present there was scarcely any means of providing against his illtreatment. Now, ise proposed that it should be the duty of the guardians to appoint some officer to make periodical visits to an apprentice, at least four times in the year, after he left the workhouse, and to re port to the guardians on all occasions when he bad rea son to believe the apprentice was cruelly or improperly treated. In several Unions this prac tice had been voluntarily and spontaneously adopted There was also another uefect in the law. At present the duty of the guardians to prosecute parties far tha ill treatment of apprentices was extremely doubtful in point of law. The Guardians of the West London Union entertained serious doubts whether they could legally expend the poor rates for prosecuting the Sloanes in the case of Jane Wilbred, and they were obliged to refee the matter to the poor law board. To remedy this defect in the law he proposed to give power to the guardians of the poor to institute such prosecutions, and to defray the cost out of the poor rates. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill. Mr. HENLEY entirely agreed with every word which had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he thought the Bill might be improved, and rendered more easy of operation, by making its provisions a little more general. He meant that the same punishment and pe nalties should be awarded to the different offences men tioned in the Bill. Colonel RAWDON regretted that the Bill was not to be extended to Ireland. Sir JOHN DUCKWORTH supported the Bill. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday next. The others orders of the day having been disposed of, the House adjourned. TO MR. VANDENHOFF, On his grand and pathetic impersonation of Reuben, in the new and magnificent Drama of Azael, the Prodigal, now in the course of nightly performance at the Theatre Royal, Drury-lane. Welcome, thou Rembrandt,* moving o'er the scene; High Patriarch of Judah's royal strain; Speaking, in old-world tones, the thoughts serene That breathe of Israel's faith—nor breathe in vain, For, when thy Prodigal, thine only Son, Who leaves thine age, and all but breaks thy heart, By Memphis, from his ancient creed were won, Those anxious tones across his conscience start, And 10l amid false sorceries and wiles, Gorgeous as earth's dominions can unite, He tow'rs—reclaim'd—heroical—and smiles At martyrdom, and bids the Smiters, smite. No, not for life, will he abjure the truth His Fathers' Fathers held, and thou did'st teachbis youth. The Priests of Isis hurl him to the Nile, But Reuben's God preserves him from the wave— He crawls the Desert, humbled to a Slave— And, now he's left to perish—and, awhile, Hope fails his breast—till, looming in a dream, The lost familiar scenes before him beam— He wakes, and staggers forth to seek his Sire:— The good old man, amidst his harvest-h3me, Musing in anguish where his Son may roam, Now, weeps for joy to clasp his soul's desire. Consummate artist, matchless to combine Majestic pathos, eloquence divine! The Drama, still, shall boast a Sov'ran While Creon's grandeur lives, in thee, and Reuben's grief. THE AUTHOR OF "RURAL SONNETS." Inner Temple, March I. • Mr. Vandenhoff's make-up as Reuben is a perfect gem from the Antique, calling to life, as it were, the most cele brated portraits of Patriarchs, and Kings in Israel, from the pencils of Rembrandt and the other great masters. STATE OF TRADE. (From the Manchester Guardian of this day.) MANCHESTER, TUESDAY .—Advices were received yesterday, by the Africa, statin that a fall in cotton had taken place at New York of Ray lie. per lb. This pro duced an impression that a greater decline must ensue in our market than has actually been experienced to-day. Yarns, whether for exportation or for home consumption, have been purchasable at a reduction of *l. to id. per lb. below the rates of this day week; but all producers are nut disposed to yield so much, and some hold to their prei.ious terms. They see that the reported state of things on the otber side, though partly occa sioned by an excess of 100,000 bales in the receipts at the ports, is yet, in a great measure, the result of the prior depression in Manchester, and has therefore been, in a great degree, anticipated—a view of the subject which was shown by the telegraphic account received on 'Change, at noon, to be entertained at Liverpool also. Looking at the matter in much the same light, the buy ers have been less affected than, from the amount of the decline , in the States, taken by itself, they might have been expected to be. Both the home con sumers and the shippers have ,made limited purchases, where they could do so at some such reduction as is named above. Goods have suffered relatively more than yarns. Some manufacturers have, however, met the buyers, and so succeded in effecting sales, though, for the most part, within narrow limits. The worst effect of a change like this is that which is pro duced on our foreign customers. It appears from the German letters, received this morning, that confidence in the maintenance of prices, in this market, was beginning to rexive, so as to induce the manufactu- rers to venture upon increased purchases—a step towards improvement which will be rather checked by the next advices hence. So bad has the manufacture of some de scriptions of cloth become, particularly 7-8 printers, that many looms have bee❑ of late, and are still being, either wholly or partially stopped. . MACCLESFIELD, TUESDAY.--We are glad to report that a slightly improved demand for manufactured goodie has sprung up since our last; at the same time, it must be observed that this is not general, but may be taken as an indication that a resumption of active business will take place shortly. The market for throwns remains very flit, and the long continuance of this state of things is inducing some holders to accept slightly re duced rates. The raw silk market miy be quoted much in the same state as reported of late, with this excep tion, that Bengals of middling, and from that to first class quality, are said to be easier of purchase, with some actual business done, at lower than previous rates. ROCHDALE, MONDAY.—The flannel market to-day has been extremely flat; there has been a very thin attnd ance of buyers, and these few have pucchrsed very sparingly, at rather reduced prices. In wool there has been very little doing, and prices have still a downward tendency. UUDDERSFIELD, TUESDAY.—We have only had an average business doing to-day in the Cloth Hall; it being what is termed 13;4 ween " seasons." The delive ries to ordar have not been very large; but there is every hope of a good spring trade being done. The Continental hones have been pretty busy during the we. with spring go ds. A little more has been done in the wool maket thi4 week. HALIFAX, SATURDAY.—There has not been a large atteudaoce in our Piece Hall to-day; but there is still a good demand for darnask, chiefly for the London mar ket, and probably occasioned by the unusual extent of furnishing arising out of preparations for the forth comitig d-xhibition. Low lastings are still freely in• quired tor; but other descriptions of worsted goods are not much in request. A better ton© of feeling seems to prevail iu iha yarn and wo,,llen markets, though we cannot rep- rt any material iac , ease of actual business. LEEDS, TUESDAY.—We have had a flat market to-day at the Cloth Halls, but on Saturday last more business v./to, done. Prices continue firm, and stocks are not larger than usual at this seosQn of the year. ADULTERATION OF COFFEE. By the report of the meeting on Monday on the adul teration of coffee it will have been observed that although there was a noisy opposition to the resolutions against chicory being surreptitiously vended under the name of coffee, not a single argument was offervd in justification. The old statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the public when they ask and pay for coffee, prefer to have the inferior a r t icle f oisted upon them, was all that could be brought forward, although at the same time the fact that the opp on ents of the practice, when they point to the injury i nfli cted by it upon the revenue, manifest " far more sympathy for the Chancellor of the Exchequer than the Chancellor WEDNESDAY EVENING, had manifested for himself," wal adroitly taken ads an • 'el;, er n . ,:se s .‘11,):e 'sae Fess.see e ing, "consisting of burnt peas, dog-biscuit, powdered earth, and other materials too horrid to mention," . which, of course, if adulteration is to be per mitted in any shape, must also be tolerated ; yet, this exhibition was met by an avowal from a re tail trader of his perfect contentment with the system which permits such mixtures, while another speaker also had just previously asserted that it leads to an improvement in the strength and palatable properties of coffee. Notwithstanding the uproar, however, with which the small dealers listened to every condemnation of . the evil, resolutions were eventually carried, that the adulteration of coffee should be met in the same way by the Government as the adulteration of any other dutiable article; that the poor are at present imposed upon to a most pernicious extent; that it is a precedent fraught with serious evils to encourage such proceedings by a legal sanction; and that an interview should be obtained with Lord John Russell and Sir Charles Wood to urge prompt and effective measures of prevention. Meanwhile, the public should keep in view the actual position of the question as regards the various interests affected. The colonial coffee growers say that if chicory, horse-chesnuts, &e., are to be recognized by the Go vernment as identical with coffee, then it must be unfair to subject their produce to a duty of 4d. per lb., while the competing articles are liable to no such impost. With respect to the consumers the argument is, that they should be allowed the opportunity of purchasing any mixture they may ask for; but that if they ask for coffee the dealer should not be allowed to substitute chicory or horse-chesnnts, any more than he should be allowed to substitute Britannia metal when he professes to give silver. At the same time, if this view be not taken, the dealer has a right to com plain that the Government is not consistent, and that while he is allowed to vend substitutes for coffee, he finds himself prosecuted by the Excise if he introduces linseed into pepper or sloe-leaves in place of tea. In his recent Budget the Chancellor proposed to reduce the duty on coffee from 4d. to 3d ; but to be upon a par with chicory, horse-chesnuts, and powdered earth, it must be free from duty altogether. Without a pro hibition against one being substituted for the other, this reduction, therefore, is merely an unworthy instal ment of an unanswerable demand. Few persons have ever thought of asking for an excise duty on chicory equiva lent to the duty on coffee, yet two years ago the Chancellor " warned" thechicory growers that he contemplated going even to that extent if the adulteration should becontinued. When it was shown that it had not only continued, but had greatly increased, he announced that he had no intention of taking any steps in the matter. Next he intimated, on the authority of some grocers, that the public were highly favourable to the practice (although this was no answer to the claims of the cultivators); end, lastly, it was asserted, in the face of a rapidly de clining consumption, that the substitution of the untaxed for the taxed article, had actually increased the use of the latter. It will be seen, therefore, that the points at issue have been thus far met by nothing but centradice teens, damaging alike to steady trade and to the national character, awl that it will be impossible after the know ledge of the case which is now awakened, and the dis play on the part of the retail traders which took place yesterday, that these can be any longer persevered in. It may be desirable to mention that the tradesmen who spoke in condemnation of the prevailing practices were Messrs. Fortnum and Mason, Ridgway and Co., Mr. Twining, Mr. Payne, of Regent street; Mr. Quick, of Fenchureh-street; and Mr. Deane, of Shore titch. The two firms mentioned among the cases cited in the Lancet whose coffee was found entirely free from adul.e ration were Richard Knight and Son, of Gracechurch street, and Mr. Bette, of Oxford-street. It must be plain, however, that as things at present stand houses of this description can have no fair chance against their less strict competitors.— Times. THE LONDON GAZETTE, March 11 BANKRUPTS. John Barnard Warcup, ironmonger, Deptford, to sur render March 20, at one, and April 24, at twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Bell, official assignee, Coleman street-buildings; rayler, Adelaide.place, London-bridge. • Charles Driffield. draper, Beverley, Yorkshire, March 21, at one, and April 28, at twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Graham, official assignee; Ashurst and Son, Old Jewry. William Buckle, ship owner, Pall-mall, March 28, at eleven, and April 29, at one, at the Court of Bank ruptcy. Edwards, official assignee, Sambrook -court, Basinghall-street; Towne, Devonshire-square, Bishops gate. George Parker, carpenter, Coventry, March 31, and April 26, at half-past ten, at the Birmingham District Court. Valpy, official assignee, Birmingham; Browctt, Coventry. Henry B!akesley, brick and tile dealer, Castle Brom wich, Warwickshire, March 27 and April 29, at twelve, at the Birmingham District Court. Christie, official assignee, Birmingham; Harrison, Birmingham. Edward Smith, hop merchant, Worcester, March 26, and April 23, at twelve, at the Birmingham District Court. Whitmore, official assignee, Birmingham; Reece, Birmingham. Stephen Thomas Walker, horse dealer, Grantham, March 21, and April 25, at twelve, at the Birmingham District Court, Nottingham. Bittleston, official assignee, Nottingham; Swan, Gray's Inn-place, Gray's-inn. . _ Manuel Jones, cheese factor, Wrexhatis, March 24, and April 14, at eleven, at the Liverpool District Court. Morgan, official assignee, Liverpool; Evans, Liverpool. Robert Wade, grocer, Plymouth, March 17, at two, and April 24, at eleven, at the Exeter District Court. Hernaman, official assignee, Exeter; Edmonds and Sons, Plymouth; Stogdon, Exeter. Thomas Kinten, furniture broker, East Stonehouse, Devonshire, March 17, at two, and April 24, at eleven, at the Exeter District Court. Hernaman, official assig nee, Exeter; Little and Billing, Devonport; Stogdon, Exeter; Sole and Turner, Aldermanbury. DIVIDENDS. At the Court, Basinghall-street. J. Murray, Gracechurch-street, Manchester ware houseman and wholesale linendraper, April 1, at twelve— J. N. Harlow, Ramsgate, wine and spirit merchant, April 3, at half-past two—J. Saunders, Basinghall-street, and Bradford, Wiltshire, woollen mAnuficturer, April 1, at one—Elizabeth M'Knott and J. Glass, Belvidere-road, Lambeth, and Blackfriars-road, coal merchants, April 3, at one—T. Nokes, een., Upmin , ter and Stifford, Essex, miller, April 3, at eleven—E. M a y, Oxford street, iron monger, April 1, at twelve—J, Peachey, Middleborough, Colchester, coachmaker, April 3, at twelve—J. R. Ptd ding, George-yard, Lombard-street, and Finchley, mer chant, April 3, at twelve. In. the Country. W. Miller, Liverpool and Bootle, wine and spirit mer chant and brewer, April 3, at eleven, at the Court, Liverpool. NOTICES OF CERTIFICATES. At the Court, Basil:Than-street. R. Hills, Downham, Isle of Ely, grocer and flourseller, April 1, at one—S. Berns, Houndsditch, importer or French goods, April 2, at two—J. N. Harlow, Rams gate, wine and spirit merchant, April 3, at half-past two. In the Country. R. N. Jones, Liverpool, merchant, April 4, at eleven, at the Court, Liverpool—W. Randall, Manchester, calico printer, April 4, at twelve, at the Court, Manchester. CERTIFICATES GRANTED. W. Eeley, Horsepath, Oxford hire, butcher, certificate of the second class—W. J. Sage, Great Portland-street, chemist and druggist, certificate of the third class—C. Robinson, Liverpool, sailmaker, certificate of the first class, after twenty-one days from March 7—J. Moore, Nottingham, cabinetmaker, certificate of the first class. PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED. J. Garrood and C. Garrood, Fakenham, No olk, brass founders—R. Taylor and J. E. Taylor, Red Lion court, Fleet-street, printers—E. Hunt and A. Mellersb, Maidstone, wharfingera—J. C. Watson, W. Frankland, and W. Dobson, Whitby, linen and woollendrapers (so far as regards W. Frankland)—J. Jones, J. Webb, T. Bold, T. Green, and W. Taylor, Liverpool, grocers (so far as re gards J. Webb)-11. Balme, J. Kelshaw, and J. Wil kinson, Elland, Halifax, machinemakers (so far as re gards H. Balmo)—D. Gilmour and W. G. Wilson, Port Dundas, near Glasgow, and Earl•street, Blackfriars, ironfaunders—R. Nichols and J. Mackie, Huddersfield, cloth merchants—T. W. Kershaw and J. Lowe, Green wich, linendrapars--E. Barker, sen., E. Barker, jun., J. Barker, and W. C. Barker, Greatbridge, Wet Brom wich, Staffordshire,. drapers (so far as regards W. C. Barker)—J. S. Culpan and T. Edwards, Huddersfield, plumbers and glaziers—G. Nicholson and J. Thompson, Liverpool, accountant 3—Mary Rush worth and Frances 11. Johnston, Wakefield, milliners—H. Sheard and G. W. Brown, Strand, woollendrapers—K. Fenton and J. T. Leather, Thorp-hall Colliery, Whitkirk and Rothwell, and at Leeds, coal owners—W. H. Ray, J. Page, and J. W. Rice, Croydon, plumbers—J. Eales and C. Chalker, Dartmouth, cur r i ers —S. T a ylor and T. Gadsby, Man chester, haird ressers —J. H or sepool and J. Annis, Leicester, tail ors —M ary Hi g hton and Elizabeth High. ton, Liverpo o l, licensed victuallers — W . J. Joselin and H.J. Morgan, Blackman-street, Southwark. hat manu facturers—G. W. Brett and F. K. Masters, Fleet-straat, tailors—J. Walker and C. Brown, Whitechapel-road, silversmiths—T. Baker and E. A. Pike, Plymouth, iron mongers—H. Sl ocora b e an d R. C. Slocombe , Charlotte street, Portland- p l ace , ta ll o wchandlers —J. S. Haycraft and S. W. mongers—T. W a l ms l e y a nd 1.. Jones, Liverpool, sta- Flaycraft, Kingston• up on-Thames, iron tioners—J. Horbury and G. J. Bertinchamp, Liverpool, shipbrokers —J. Corbin and S. R. Palmer—R. W. Baird and W. P. Knowles, Presoot, Lancashire. tar distillers. INSOLV ENT PETITIONERS. Henry Springett, Ivy Church, Kent, publican. James Beattie, Reading, draper. John Shaw, anchester, overladker. Jahn Read, sea., Helmsley, Yorkshire, farmer. John Read, jun., Helmsley, Yorkshire, farmer. Samuel Stele, Tunstall, Staffordshire, boatman. 11 annah Harris , Bid ,rd, Warwickshire, tea dealer. r Arthur Newnham, Alten. Htmq"h ire t sur geon. SCOTCH SEQUESTRATIONS. J. Miller, B DFaonrf,aieres, March 18 and April B, hire, banker, to m( et within th i at one. I. Brown, Kilwinning, Ayrshire, ironmonger, to meet within the Egliuton Arras Inn, Kilwinning, March 14 and April 4, at one. J. Sutherland, Edinburgh, merchant and commission agent, to meet within Tait's New Royal Hotel, Elia burgh, March 17 and April 11, at two. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 11. MISMANAGEMENT OF THE WOODS AND FORESTS. Lord DUNCAN rose to move the following resolu tion:—" Whereas it appears by returns laid before this House, and before the Select Committee of Woods, Forests, Works, &e., that during a period of seven years (from 1842-3 to 1848-9), the gross income derived from the po3sessions and land reveou'.s of the Crown has te {?iiii 774,0001. has been paid into the public account at the Exchequer; and whereas during the same period it ap pears that a sum amounting to 1,672,7851. has been withheld for charges of collection and management, and for other expenses charged upon the said revenues, it is expedient, with a view to place the expenditure of this branch of the public service under the more immediate control of Parliament, that the gross income derived from the said revenues should hereafter be paid into the Exchequer, and that the necessary expenses for col lecting and managing the same should be voted by this House, upon estimates to be annually sub mitted to Parliament by her Majesty's Government." The Noble Lord observed that the object of the resolu tion was to- this effect, that the gross revenue derived from the Woods and Forests should hereafter be paid into the Exchequer, and that the necessary expenses of collection and management should be voted by the House on the estimates which were annually submitted by her Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.) He deeply regretted that it had fallen to his lot to bring forward this motion, but as the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had not shown any disposi tion to take the task in hand, and as he (Lord Duncan) had acted as Chairman of a Committee on the subject, and become acquainted with the many irre gularities which had taken place in the department of the Woods and Forests, he thought he should be want ing in his public duty if he failed to bring the subject thus prominently before the House. It would be recollected that the Noble Lord brought in a Bill last session, but it was postponed from week to week, and at the very end of the session was consigned to the tomb of all the Capulets, where so many good things had previously been deposited.—(Hear.) At the commencement of the present session he put a question to the Noble Lord on the subject of the Bill, but having received an unsatis factory answer, he felt himself justified in endeavouring to apply a remedy to the existing evils in this depart ment of the Government. Ho wished to make no attack on the Noble Lord at the head of the department (Lord Seymour), but to vindicate a great principle by raising the question, whether it was to the advantage of her Majesty's service that this department should expend money without the control of Parliament? The management of these revenues were entrusted to three Commissioners responsible only to the treasurers; and the only records of their proceedings were contained in a report brought into the House at the end of the session. This, he thought, was not the way to manage that immense property. The gross amount of the property which belonged to the Crown was, he firmly believed, amply sufficient to maintain the Crown, in due dignity and splendour.—(Hear, hear.) He found that the gross rental in 1849-50 was 350,0001.; and the gross expenditure, 192,000/. Considering, therefore, that it required no less than 192,000/, to take charge of 350,0001, he thought there was ample reason for his demanding estimates on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) The revenues of the Crown in the department of Woods and Forests were derived from three sources. The land revenues consisted of household property in London (in White hall, St. James's, Regent's-park, Regent-street, Tower, &c.), of landed estates in different parts of the kingdom, and and of feefarm rents, mines, manors, &c. The Rolls Estate, and several other branches of revenue in England and Wales, Scotland and Ireland, were also committed by Parliament to the custody of the Commissioners. The great national bailiff over all this property was his lion. Friend the Secretary of the Treasury. Now, with all due submission, he (Lord Duncan) maintained that, con sidering the demands upon his Hon. Friend's time, he was not exactly the person to have such a large amount of property placed entirely at his disposal. Of much of the property, the Committee over which he (Lord Duncan) had the honour to preside found that no accurate rental was kept. It appeared that no rental had been derived from the property situated in Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and the Isle of Men; and the vis countial rents, estimated by one of the witnesses at 1,0001. a year, had been totally lost sight of since 1834, and never collected. The rental had been lost, and was only found, after a long search, in a drawer during the sitting of the Committee.—(Hear, hear.) This fact alone, he maintained, would justify him in bringing for ward his motion.—(Hear, hear.) The second branch of the property committed to the management of the Com missioners was the Royal parks—St. James's, the Green park, Hyde-park, and various other parks in and near the metropolis. The gross income from these, it ap peared, was 11,0261., and the gross expenditure 64,479/. —(Hear, hear.) He understood his Noble Friend, a few weeks ago, to promise that estimates should be furnished in future with regard to this portion of the revenue; and, if so, he thought that they would afford ample scope for economy and retrenchment.—(Hear, hear.) The third portion of the property under the management of the Commissioners consisted of the royal forests, 15 in number ; the largest of which were—New Forest, in Hampshire, 66,000 acres; and the Dean Fo rest, in Glocestershire, 20,000 acres; the whole forests containing about 110,000 acres, which bad been esti mated by an eminent surveyor at upwards of 2,000,0001. value. The income from this property was stated at 36,3931, and the expenditure at 36,784/., leaving a sur plus of expenditure over income on a property estimated at upwards of 2,ooo,oool.—(Hear, hear.) He saw many gentlemen present who were well acquainted with the value of land; and he asked them if it was not mon strous that a property of 110,000 acres, and which had been valued at upwards of 2,000,000/., produced nothing to the national Exchequer?—(Loud cries of " Hear.") He cautioned the House from running away with the idea that this waste property took nothing from the public purse. He reminded them that the property had been made over to their custody by the Sovereign on her accession to the throne, in consideration of which Parliament undertook to vote her Majesty a civil list of 380,000/, a year. If, then, this property was allowed to remain unproductive, it was clearly a loss to the public, for which the House was alone to blame. If the House would allow him, he would now proceed to state how the property originally came into the possession of the So vereigns of England. The Kings of England were for merly supported by the soil, and not by the system of revenue organized in later times. The estates seized by William the Conqueror, and which formerly belonged to Edward the Confessor, were of vast extent, and formed the ancient demesnes of the Crown, as distinguished from those obtained by escheat, forfeiture, or feudal de linquency. The ancient demesnes it was held impious to alienate. The Crown bad, in the feudal times, various other modes of augmenting its estates, particularly from forfeitures, and in time might have become possessed of all the lands in the kingdom. But the Kings of England bad ever exercised their right of disposing of the Crown lands to needy favourites and courtiers, and such aliena tions necessarily made them resort to the Commons for supplies. The Commons were in the habit, at the com mencement of every reign, and whenever they were asked for a supply, to have recourse to resumptions of improvi dent grants, held to be granted only for the life of the Sovereign. Accordingly, in almost every reign, from William the Conqueror to that of Henry the VIIIth, there were Acts of resumption passed, preliminary to or accompanying votes of supply. Up to the time of Henry VIII. the manage ment of these lands had been such as no one could com plain of. Large grants it was true bad been made, but throughout the whole of the latter part of his reign large accessions were made to the Crown property by the disso lution of the monasteries. A great portion of that property was also granted to courtiers and the needy recipients of court favour, and it therefore became greatly diminished. In the time of Charles 1., a large portion of the revenues derived from this property was applied towards the support of his army, and afterwards towards the payment of the Parliamentarian army On the occasion of the restoration of Charles the Second renewed grants were also made to those who had aided in replacing him upon the throne. By an inquiry, how ever, which he had made he had ascertained that Charles 11. still retained a revenue of 36,000/. a year. On the ac cession of William 111. large grants were again made to those who had been instrumental in promoting his ac cession to the throne. During the time of Queen Anne no return was made for thirty-one years; and yet it was but justice to say that while this property was under the direction of the officers of the Crown there was no waste of the property and no waste made by the assistants, But when it came under the direction of Parliament it was immediately used for party purposes, and ho found that several grants were made, and in one ia stance no less than 10,0001. had been made for one purpose.- It was not until 1798 that Parliament entered into any inquiry at all. After that Mr. Fordyce was instituted as an inquirer; and Mr. Fordyce, he was bound to say, had fulfilled his duty in a most admirable manner. In 1810 a commission had been appointed for the purpose of inquiring into the state of this property; and in a most lamentable condition they found it. The first witness called before the Com mittee over which ho (Lord Duncan) had the honour to preside, was the Earl of Carlisle, at that time Presi dent of the Woods and Forests. The Committee soon found, from his Lordship's evidence, that the accounts of the office were kept in a most slovenly man ner.—(Hear, hear.) In consequence of the evidence adduced, a communication had been made to Mr. Anderson, from whom a letter had been received, and he (Lord Duncan) thought that a more disgraceful letter had never been read to the House of Commons—(Hear, hear)—and he believed that he fully justified the inquiry for which he now moved. From that letter it appeared that no balance had been made of the books later than the 31st of March in 1839, so that there had been no balance whatever struck for nine years; that no accounts whatever had been rendered later than the 31st of March, 1843, so that there had been no account at all for five years. Such a case could not possibly occur in any other department, and perfectly justified him (Lord Duncan) in asking for this discussion.—(Hear, hear.) It should be recollected that these forests had in the first place been appropriated for the enjoyment of the Sovereign of the realm. For the management of these forests three officers were ap pointed —one for the management of the revenues derived from the domains, another for the nur ture and care of the deer, and a third for attending to the growth of, and the profit derived from, the timber. Now it did unfortunately happen that looking te ter deer and the growing of timber was not a very pleasant oc cepation, and the consequence was that these duties were dreadfully neglected. When he went down to the New Forest a few months ago, he found matters in a state of great confusion. The hewn timber did not agree with the catalogues which had been sent up to the Commis sioners of Woods, and no wonder that on the frauds that bud been perpetrated in the management of the forest being discovered one of the managers ran away toFrance, another cut his throat, and a third bolted from the forest. It then transpired that the public had been openly robbed, and timber sold at periodical sales by parties who had no right whatever to it. Now, if the plan he proposed bad been in operation none of these abuses would have arisen. Again, in the case of the Wichwood Forest, for a long series App of years the Woods and F orests ha d been at lawwith o t 4 he a ranger, Lord Churchill, and during that period MARCH 12, lB5l. stick of timber was ent down. Th., cnit r.t the a, ;,A h3ll been put to the enormous expense of 7,0131. Walt ham Forest had almost entirely passed into the hands of the neighbouring proprietors, and the result was, there had been an end of litigation, to the great loss of the public, who more than once had been compelled to pay the Attorney-General enormous fees, amounting to up eards of 3001, for doing —what did the House suppose? Wny, nothing mure than putting on his gown and wig.—(Laughter.) He hoped after this statement of facts the House would be disposed to support his motion, and then there would be a chance of diminishing, if not altogether abolishing, these gross and crying evils.—(Hear, hear.) A Mr. Kent was appointed to manage the timber of Selsey Forest, who was a clerk in a solicitor's office in the City, and who knew nothing whatever about the nature of his duties. The consequence was that after the lapse of six years he failed, and on inquiry being made it was found that he had cut down 4,0001. worth of oak, and applied the proceeds to his own purposes. This person soon afterwards disappeared, but was ul timately apprehended, convicted, and transported. Now, what was the use of talking of economy, when such practices as these were allowed? He did not attach blame to the individuals then holding the offices of Commissioners of Woods and Forests, but his did blame the system by which there never was any calling to account of these officers on the part of Parlia ment, and he must again say that if estimates had been laid before Parliament there would have been none of these irregularities. These unfortunate persons were the victims of a temptation they could not resist, and it was the want of control by Parliament, of which the House ought to be heartily ashamed, which had enabled them to commit those irregularities. There were no maps or surveys of the forests before the meeting of the Committee, but all the land had been converted into plantation of timber for the use of the navy. That being so, let the House judge of his surprise when he moved for a letter addressed by Mr. Barrow, the Secretary to the Admiralty, to Mr. Milne, in June,lB33, which, stated that "in consequence of a statement of the comparative expense of wood furnished by the King's forests and that supplied by private contract, the Admiralty did not think it to the interests of the public that it should pay some 51. a load' more for that furnished by the King's forests." Mr. Barrow stated that the cost of a load of wood from the Woods and Forests was, indepen dent of all other expenses, 8/. 6s. 61. a load, whereas it could be got from a contractor for 61.—(Hear.) This was not stated in the reports presented to the House, and they had not been able to judge if it was worth their while to incur such an additional expense in the rearing of timber. There had been no opportunity of debating the question or entering into an examination of the true state of things, when they only had such reports, and which never came under the eyes of Members of the House. The question he had now to ask was, whether with such instances as he had given of the position in which the Woods and Forests stood, the House would allow the Crown estates to remain in the condition in which they were a year and a half ago?—(Hear, hear.) He now came to the question of the management of the Crown estates, and he thought he should be able to show such results as fully to justify him in making this mo tion. Previously to the appointment of the Committee the present Duke of Newcastle, who had been Chief Commissioner of the Woods and Forests, moved for a return of the income and expenditure of the Woods and Forests for the last ten yearn, which had been laid before the Committee, and he would read the results of that return. The gross income of the Woods and Forests for seven years, 1842.3-1848 9, was 2,446,785/. ; the sums paid into the Exchequer during the same period, 774,000/. ; the difference, or amount with held, was 1,612,785/. The expenditure by the re turn appears to have been during the same period, 1,555,085/. The difference is an increase of the balance in hand, 117,700/., to account for the expenditure of which no subsequent returns have yet been laid before Parliament. The gross receipt for the land revenue in the same seven years (in round numbers 280,0001. per annum) was 1,983.9241.; the expenditure charged on the same (about 90,0001. per annum), 637,6441, being a charge of 30 per cent. on that branch of the grown re venue, which consists mainly of rents. The gross re ceipts of the royal forests during the same period was 272,5631., from which, deducting 21,000/. for the mines, they had a net produce for the forests of 251,5631. The expenses *luring the same period amount to 274,9891., showing a clear loss of 23.4261. during seven years on a property of the value of two millions. The gross re ceipts for the royal parks in those seven years were 191,9081., this sum, including 72,000/. secured from the Duke of Sutherland for the sale of York House, applied to the formation of Victoria Park. The expenditure in the same period of seven years was 640,4521., showing a surplus expenditure in the parks in that period of 449,1441. Thus only about 32 per cent. of the whole revenue collected reached the Exchequer in seven years, and in the year 1847.48 only 18 per cent. of the sum collected reached the public purse, viz., 61,0001. paid in out of 340.5991. collected. The gross income of Woods and Forests for 1848 49 was 347,2751. ss. ld., and gross expenditure 207,485/. 10a. Bd.; the surplus income was 132,7891. 14s. sd. The amount paid over to the Ex chequer in part of the surplus income of the year 81,0004 leaves unaccounted for 51,7891. The gross in come of Woods and Forests in 1849-50 was 349,0971. ss. 2d.; the gross expenditure, 192,1021. 17a. 11d.; surplus income, 156,9941. 7s. 3d. Amount paid over to the Ex chequer as surplus income, 206,0001. Paid over more than received, 43,0061. When they came to look further into the matter they came to an item of expenditure which threw all others into the shade, and which he would read to the House. It was extracted from the appendix to the report of the Committee of 1848, and which contained a return of the law expenses paid to the solicitors of the Woods and Forests in seven years. It was as follows: In the years 1842, 9,132/. 17s. Id.; 1843, 9,763/. 2s. lid.; 1844, 11,5241. 1 Is 3d.; 1845, 8 279/. 3s. Bd.; 1846, 11,393/. 6s.—total in five years, 50,093/. Os. 11d.; 1847, 15,639/. 33. 4d.; IC4B, 13,5091. ls. ld.—total, 79,2414 ss. 4d. This was the amount psid to the London solicitor alone, besides which there were other solicitors' bills in Edinburgh and Dublin, that in Edinburgh amounting to about 3.0001. a year, besides bills on other places. He (Lord Duncan) asked the Heuse if such a statement as that did not justify his motion. The figures might be right, or they might be wrong, but what he wanted was that Parliament should have an opportunity of knowing the facts. There was a lawsuit, for instance, between the Primate of Ireland and the Crown, which lasted from 1731 to 1802, and which cost 6.602/., yet this suit failed at last for the want of a title on the part of the Crown. That, however, was not the only lawsuit. At this moment there was one going on of a very serious cha racter between her Majesty and her faithful city of London as regarded the soil at the bottom of the Thames. It was commenced in 1844, and consi ierable expense had been incurred; but what had come of it he could not say, as no reference was made to it in the report of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. What he (Lord Duncan) sought for was an annual estimate of the expenses of this department to be voted by Parliament, and on which, therefore, the House could express an opinion. Parliament, he maintained, could not but look with jealousy upon a department of the State managing its own affairs, without reference to the control of that House. One item which he should mention would cast in the shade all he had hitherto said on the subject. From 1832 to 1848, a period of sixteen years, property belonging to the Crown had been sold by the Board of Woods and Forests to the extent of 696,2751., without Parliament being consulted on the subject, though that House was distinctly constituted as the guardian of this property. Parliament, no doubt, was informed of the fact; but it was not until after the sale had been made. Of this property, to the value of 361,000/. had been sold by public auction; but 335,000/. worth had been sold by private treaty. Under the 10th Geo. IV„ c. 50, it was enacted that all moneys derived from the sales of landed estates, the property of the Crown, should be reinvested in the purchase of other property of the same nature to an equal amount. But, according to the statement of Mr. Barrow, an unexceptionable evidence, at least 3 00,000/, of this money was invested in property which was not of a very productive character. When the House of Commons, therefore, was called on to give an account of their stewardship to the c :untry, what an swer could they make to these statements? He (Lord Duncan) had, he trusted, said sufficient to justify th e motion, and he should now only suggest the remedy in conclusion. It was that the control of Parliament should be called in; and that the management of the Woods and Forests should be subjected to annual investigation. Ira a word, that the gross receipts of that department should be paid into the Exchequer, and no money paid out on its account without the sanction of a vote of the House of Commons. He had no doubt he should be told that these were casual expenses—the expenses of the years in question; and that as they happened in an unfortunate period they were not likely to h a pp en aga i n . To this, theantshwaet such rw asplain and s i mp l e: pu b l i c doca ineuhad been a l ways the case with the tt proved management of these revenues. It was Fo in 1711, it was so tn 1798, and it was so in 1850, on the showing of the Nc,ble Lord at the head of the Government. (The Noble Lord read extracts to that effect from the report of the Royal Commission of 1711; from that of the finance Committee, June 8, 1798 ; and from the speech of Lord John Russell, Feb. 22, 1850.) He asked the House, under these circumstances, what reliance could be placed on the miscellaneous estimates under the present system of management; and appealed to Hon. Members whether he had not fully established a justification for his mo tion. The Noble Lord n•ncluded by moving:—Whereas it appears by returns laid before this House, and before the Select Committee of Woods, Forests, Works, &c., thstt during a period of seven years (from 1842 3 to 1648-9) the gross income derived from the possessions and land r evenues of the Crown has arnonnted to 2,446,7851., and t h at out of th i s sum only 7 74.000 / . h as been paid i nto whereas du the public a ccoun t a t the Exchequer; sad flog the sane period it appears that a sum amounting to 1,672.785/ has been withheld for charges of collection and management, and for other expenses charged upon the seid revenues, it is ex p, client, with a view to place the expenditure of this branch of the public service under the more immediate control of Parliament, that the gross income derived from the said revenues should hereafter be pael into the Exchequer, and that the necessary expenses for collecting and managing the same should be voted by this House, upon estimates to be annually submitted to Parliament by her Majesty's Government. Mr. HUME seconded the motion. Lord SEYMOUR said he was no more responsible for the management of the office of Woods and Forests previous to 1849, than any other Member of the House. —(Beat-, he tr.) He confessed, when he entered upon his duties in that year, he imagined, after all he had heard, that he should find the revenue arising from Crown lands very much reduced, and the value of the land which had reverted to the Crown seriously impaired. However, on referring to the returns on the subject, he discovered that the revenues were not in that lamentable and deplorable condition in which his Noble Friead had represented t'''''' , f ) rr , , „;,:,, from be. e.eeee ro^r ^r,r, • ~. -. ~•,, . , i, • , ' A I; ii cJ, 4.45 19,6A1.; le 1;99 “ . had goeen to 21,6001.; in 1809, 42,0001; in 1819, 120,0001; in 1829, 183,1001.; in 1839,. 188,400/. ;_. and Jill 1849 and 1850 to 203,300/. (paid into the Exchequer, 200,0001.) Under the authority of Parliament, the rents of the land revenue were wholly diverted from the Es' chequer for the purposes of the improvements in Regent - street and the strand; in 1837, these purposes having been accomplished, the surplus rents were made avil' able in aid o f ways and means, and continued annually to be ai so ever since. Between the years 1829 and 1839 ore t i 'n light-houses, belonging to the Crown, were trans' erred to the Trinity Board, by which the rental of the Crown 000 property diminished u pwards of 10,1. per a c nnum. The Irish was land revenue was tr ansferred to the Commissioners of Woods in 1827. In 1828 it EtWOUOted to 56,400 e; in 1829 to 60,8001.; in 1839 to 53,200/.; ill 1849 to 54,2001. The greater part of the Ir ish lend re; venueie war d s e consisted of feefarm, or unimp rova bl e rote , of wb • h there had been sold, in t he a gg regate, up: 6,0001. per annum since the tran sfer. The 'Scotch We revenue was transferred to the Commis..ioners o f Wes a ,S, in 1832. In 1831-2 it amounted to 14,9001; in 1849-0 v f to 26,8001. The revenue Of the Lle of Man was trail' erred to the Commissioners of Woods in 1827-8 e Iv 1827-8 it amounted to 1,4001.; in 1829.30 to 2,100 e; tb'i 1839-40 to 5,4001.; and in 1849-5 0 to 5,000/. Ii fat that that summary, though necessarily brief, won; r o c to show that the affairs of the department be s ' de been so grossly mismanag on ed as the repr 0 0 , 5 the subject might have left the House to suppose. , he happened to have been in town attending Partial's and otherwise occupied here during the past Yesr;, t h e attention had been turned more to the property (4,',,„, Crown in London than to its possessions in the country .Now, the Crown rents, from the property of the Crows of in London amounted in the year ending e n the 3 1 ',,,,g \larch, 1850, to 137,885/. The cost of collecting P'oo revenue was only 1 , 0001.--(Hear, hear.) Itt s i te l nor there was not such bad management there. m" d li t he came to the statement of his Noble Friend, who tol a ouse that the gross income of the Crown PI be es during the seven years to which their attention had 03 % ; especially directed amounted to 2,446,785/., ee,d he el during those years only 774,000/. of that sum ha" sc ree paid into the Exchequer, his Noble Friend a the Ba io , time adding that a sum of 1.672,0001. had been other% expended, of which expenditure he seemed to saPtf, that the House had not been sufficiently informed; 1:1,:i somehow or other, those funds had altogether evs por l i b - 0 without the knowledge of Parliament and TAO ° he proper exercise of its control. He had, then , i°, 3 1 0 1 first place to observe, that the balance to the ereu b i of land revenues of the Crown amounted in the m o t be April, 18 49 , to 145,269/„ and that sum wt' s - e eb deducted from the 1 672,0001. referred to of his Noble Friend. There was a further 50111..,,,a 116,920/. for the Victoria-park, which certainly rwo no part of the expenses of the land revenue. '' ve in the eV o f done by Act of Parliament, and was as clear en ag h i l , priation as any vote of the House of COMMOOS. . ' ro • then, reduced the sum of which his Noble Frieria ev or , plaieed to 1,410 000 e, which was accounting fqeite,:ble tion of it. But beyond this there was a consul t ee portion fixed by Act of Parliament w ith wh is ne t- House of Commons could not interfere —there Wersrer manent charges on the land revenues of the time of pointed by old Acts of Parliament, as old as tbe Ü be re , Charles, which were set forth in the apPend ix el t e e e t d bee s port, and under the authority of these 138,60te-R-; well paid in the course of the seven years. Parliames cog had il recently interfered with those funds by di re dilly t t a application of money for improvements ill . ,r iec o e 0 and tor augmenting the fund known by we ° to the Queen Anne's Bounty. That expenditure ere°,, e 01 extent of 78.0001., which, added to the I ° ° ' e dr already mentioned, gave a total of 216,0001 to . ; be ducted further from the 410.0001. For 01 ibis ;be present officers of the department were bY .fl e pois' responsible—they were old transactions for which thanneent itself was responsible. Nothing could be ( fig r r e er . that; and having said so much, be vii° ll . l e e t the mind the House that last year his Noble Friend 'roe/ head of the Government had shown himself 030 St dVoodj to divide the Board of Works from the office e e f e d tbs t , and Forests and Land Revenue, and recoralneuu;ofideo a Bill should be brought in and the exPew' s /4ooc l. a for . hy votes of that House. The department tweet and Forests would then be subordinate to the , ' fee the evils to him then, that the proper reineul a 0 0 0 filc which his Noble Friend stated would be te,B ree lis• Bill that was proposed in the last session 01 merit. For himself he might say be was 50%jetle;ttirre come as well acquainted as be could with tbeee.iessure9 fibootriudeirgbtfo be e e iouffruusdeueinedtheue tdbisecuoussbi.on f o_fr u l es ^ ; bee t l e ' ) jec • He was glad, during the few months that 0967, be c ould d w it,. for the purpose, not only to make himself sequel/10f the forests details of the department, but to visit as re se 'rere, t o take as he possibly could. He intended, ther h e ce gb he the part in the consideration of the Bill; sad t e voila? a might be placed at the head of the I3oard el f ed widt therefore, probably not immediately c oupe' wi der Woods and Forests, he should still be led to o ho op everyßut, assistance in legislating with reg arti be elL er g m ht ea g m en re e s ral m ly i the r en der might a strong conviction that, tholg u ice of Parliament, yet surely the House ° . cos' t ß t : eg t , n to _ b e whatever brou . dot de 150 d mons could not deal with all the minute f the nected with year to y ear Coer reven revenues the collection and Management 0 . t here b s e, o f f er th e Crown and the royal forerptrepertio would be, instance , the drainage of a anotherßrer! te Over such small or in one county, contribution therepair might be often, isws the place, ass . matters a irofthae maintenancet aHrmo uehsfoeuasesurrolessidy ci eo:_usfol 0wu. .. 0. _ istance the drainage of land in 1, ..., A D0i exercise rue any effectual control. They raig pt lee f t ?, 1 s and principles, they might ta ke ruler;inee the; guarding m. against the infringement of those d e e el lght, on the mass of the transactions, elt e . b b 0 00 1 P effectual control, but they could not interfere rit„.ea 10 details; if they did they would probably not 11 0°4- a bete, the flo undertaking. The House had much bette r o rriet its Mat OOP out.umHe good principle, and insist on e regretted that the Committee did no t pro: some broad and general principle, el:lowing bow 1,0410 r e rtr of the Crown might be managed, and bo° of VW improved. It the House wiebed to O h; MY best ;o at improve the Crown be th eeg e 11/A 4* property, mustof 1193 and ale" go back The law to the report •• o ee 0 . expenses incurred certainty _ a bo , enormous, but when the House releeinWrd 0' f ere v _439 much Crown property had bees s e c se r e ped how much had been lost, they would ‘ ground for this great outlay. The resolutiooopood oo. by b his Noble Friend would be . ineffective, an d ' this le,lo - carried nut, as Parliament could sot contr e eectote ' 1; nute expenditure. It would be better for the efoo l l e permit r the Bill to be brought in, dividing t'reightha rthe Works, so that all the expendiWre 1 the elP ;0 confi ded would become to one of these departments, erbl. ° is sves - 0 become a mere source of revenue. k. bo il lie: doubt true that the metropolitan irnproveineor, badjeititf undertaken by the Woods and Works ie Wl' rovers o• il e pacity, and that the security of the l e an e d re e e l orh e ' e b been wo mortgaged for the execution or tee one bre-°O3 Id admit also that the facility with which °Roped was able to borrow money which the other. 0 s tofn . and b led to proceedings which it was desirable he te/ v j .eo e proposed to accomplish this bY di/it:001e d of p th r e tments. It certainly appeared from t''' last e- e a revenue and expenditure of the Foreetspeee " 0 3 as read by his Noble Friend,that the "Pen i I°ek Of b° 00 the income were very nearly balanced; be' .ed find to r -to the end w of the Forests' accounts, be f or the tiro 0, there thee:.e sums to be received for ai d. 1 0 08 given to navy which had not yet li'e ell P e WM ,b 0 as thatf ocoro i c e , was the chief source o w air re. forests, it seemed to him to be an odd 1 ,/aY - got IV Lot expenditure and the income before you bad _, n o I cei t thisP se—(Laughter.) The Admiralty did not 00; .timber until it a • dthe dockyard. •'' phi° possible for th ea arrived at r esola ll ° ,l le h ee l implied wh e eeouse to agree to a e N oe es Th at was not the fact, that 1, 67 t . ee nte , die withheld without the knowledge of Pa interests or „' he realrequirements of the case and the in t A e i l g WO " o r public service Bill of would be best met by prone'e'l Ig o Co A t oef" _ elle which Lord J. Russell gave d•egli dolts ln ement of the session. He would aee er l • te 13 0 .., a I do 0 0 as an amendment, for leave to bring 01 the IVOO ai, better • • provision for the management of n d for ~l it •ch forests and land revenues of the Crown , 11- j 3et 0 1 ""eseo section of the üblic This s the • •to se works. we ar e M he had spoken, which divided the present bo . de' departments. floe 90 1 ° tie Mr. H UME said the first part of the re a Ol 00 o elated that certain results had taken OW , v rhill roes hi ; d that t h /d cou i could deny. The secondaffi rm Part e er, ere come ought to be paid into the Beeebrtle •iets t e be, there . . be any person who would not concur 1, .sripeip sitton? He advised the House to affirm that .reeese, i f When the Government Bill was before the ee en 0 01 0 " would be seen how far the details met the re s the Noble Lord the Member for Bath. trY "rl Sir B. HALL thought the House and the 0100) for much indebted to his Noble Friend (Lord ?r e irei ttil l the assiduity with which he had Pur sue- rl b "" (Li°° into the management of the Crown lat-sc'; 00 1 1 cheers.)thatAs a metropolitan Member, be Intl 0000°, coll lo 2 co d fe c having been brought into frequent with the Noble Lord at the head of the WOOlgeer a rm ors rests ( L ,rd Seymour), henever saw a Pub lic e d ir i 11.1 11 . , , , exist ed . I anxious to prevent the abuses which De. ) A Act department than the Noble Lord.--(Cheers../ s to u times he had found t 0% 0 110 0 the Noble Lord mos m sei ~ that h was desirable for the public intere s h _ t ot. sets IP h 0 reference to the individuals in that estawheen 'l (Cheers.) The Noble Lord, however, be e not d, 00 4 II to controvert the statements of his Noble ice b 9 8, was sure that if the Crownproperty were broil otet by year under the notice of PI P • p 11'1°111d b rhament. 1 f lb ° managed and at less g o Sir ix ~,,, cost to the country.. or that H. W ILLOU GHBY should rest hinds suPP..4. j, i motion of Lord Duncan upon two grou-t Wouu, arge sums were received-and expended by 0, u po 0 ; . and Works, and secendly, that no the eeeleteL'id / site ; large portion of this expenditure. ile w°l3 010 d and b e fcgi ' g it'e wider range than his Nellie Frien , dor ° • or° the sum • received by the Woods and Forests o p 04 last eighteen years was 7,340,000/., while the e ltP oo. o° , during that time had been no less than 6 ; th ie e''; It was no answer to say that a large portion " et . for 0 p t enditure ww , appropriated by Act of Parlisre.,,,e 09 th e l: large proportion was not so applied. Smell '" i . it f e , actual surplus carried to the public Exebe c l e h e e ' sl ete ) altogether delusive, because it was created ber a te c b otr .o , of s. !ling the capital of this ree erty.- -( "f e je ' s a l. ', Fie en 1831 to 1849 he believed that no. - 1851 f i g 1,200,0001. of the capital bad been oold. From - 03 / 5 ' f 0 • t' 1842 the . • capital sold amounted to 744,0001; . 1.- n ligb a to 1849 it was 133,000/. A large sale of Croo n fd houses took place also in 1839, for which 300, 0 re bo obtained. When the Committee asked &tr. G e t , etlif t , this 300,000/. was expended, the could gft 1 ; - TP anewer than that it was expended uynproductiov," e 0: Board of W.iods and Forests had, in truth, brieene,' they i . n . couipatible functions. They rec eive 'lei di TOldP.sid( money, they sold their capital, sied,,, t o piee• e . Rear.) They had not only 5014 sl3' cal We th 4 101 • lu t