The Sun. — London, England, 1845-05-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 710CZ:SE OF LORDS, May 19. The LOUD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack shortly after Five'o'clock. .Amemagefrona.the Commons brought up several Bills. The Exchequer-bills Bill was read a third time and passed. Lord PORTMAN presented petitions from Somerset in favour of the grant to the College, of Maynooth. Lord BEAUMONT presented petitions from the Catholics of. Clithero, 'Complaining of donations and be quests left for Catholic purposes having been appro priated to subjects other than those for which they were intended. The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S presented several pe titions against the grant to the College of Maynooth. Lord MONTEAGLE presented petitions in favour of the grant to the College of Maynooth from Tunbridge Wells, signed by three Protestant clergymen and a great number of inhabitants of that town. The Marquis of ELY presented a petition from the inhabitants. and parishioners of the parish of Keleskerry, in the county of Tyrone, against the grant to the College of Maynooth. Lord STOURTON presented a petition against the Debtors and Creditors' Bill. PUBLIC MUSEUMS BILL. Lord WHAItNCLIFFE moved the committal of the Public Musaums Bill. The Bill then went through Committee, in cer tain amendments were agreed to. Lord ASHBURTON presented a petition from an in. dividual, whose name the Noble Lord did not mention, complaining of the hardship he had experienced by the operation of the 20/. clause of the Debtors and Creditors' Act. He himself, when Lord Chancellor, had taken a different course, and his Noble and Learned Friend had followed the course which he himself had pursued, and __ _ had, without the slightest regard fo party con • siderations, made recently an excellent appoint ment to the judicial bench in the person of one of the most learned, most able, and most honour able men in Westminster Hall, but who was supposed, indeed was well known, to be a political opponent of the present Administration. He hoped that this example would always live in the recollection of other Govern ments, and that it would be followed by the successors of his Noble and Learfttd Friend. So far for the courts of common law. As for the courts of equity they were making it the interest of the judge to decide on one side of the question, by paying him 10,0001. a year instead of 2,5001. a year, in peace or in war. He did not mean to say that Sir William Scott, or any of his suc cessors, ever yielded to that temptation ; very far from that ; but he would have them not only free from guilt, but above suspicion ; but under those circumstances it was likely that an uninterested mind would imagine th things were not without their influence. Dr. Lushington had now a fixed salary, and he was no longer paid to the detriment of the country. He was now paid 4,0001. a year, and was most properly excluded from party conflicts and political controversies. The objection to the Court of Delegates was a most just one, as appeals were made from learned judges to un learned civilians. The Court of Delegates was abo lished and transferred to the Privy Council, which was a remodelling ; and there an objection existed, as there were three judges who, because they constituted a form, were required to decide most important cases. That was done away with ; and no one could doubt that a great improvement had been made in that jurisdiction. Bills were brought in and passed encouraging the set tling of courts of arbitration, according to the sugges tion of 1828, which had been greatly beneficial to suitors. But he grieved to say that there was still an evil which he rejoiced to find was sought to be suppressed by the institution of county courts of local judicature which would add to the benefits of the suitor in this country. Out of 7,000 suits which were brought into the Courts, 5,000 ceased in consequence of the operation of the courts of recon cilement to which appeals might be made. This satis factory appeal was not compulsory, but optional, at least compulsory, viz., when after a mutual trust a decision had been accorded. He would now call attention and solicit the most earnest attention of the landed interest, on both "sides of the House, for there was not one por tion of the country which had so deep a stake in the law of real property as they, and as to transfer and purchase no class had so direct and directing an interest in the amendment of the law as the landed proprietors. He, tinily squeezed out of him by this process as the breath, by any other, could be squeezed out of his body. And all this was done by a legal spectre, and against the law maxim, " qui prior tempore potius jure," by substituting a flaw or fiction. Now, let it be supposed that the third lender was secure in his title, he was exposed to numerous risks. He must be a purchaser without notice to be secured from incumbrance. Notice might be actual or constructive. For instance the notice might be served on a man's attorney or even upon his attorney's agent, or through a Chancery suit, of which the mortgagee had never heard. Again the courts of law might presume that the term had been surrendered. He knew an experienced conveyancer who was con cerned in a case where one of his clients was obliged to seek through four different diocesan courts, at an ex pense of upwards of 4001., for a surrender of the term in order to complete his title. Surely this required an immediate and an effectual remedy. This fictitious term ought to be quashed. The Bill he was about to bring in would remove this great scandal to the law. A Learned Friend of his was about to introduce a Bill for the general registration of deeds, and nothing could be more desirable. A case had recently happened where it was supposed the will bad been burnt with the mansion, and where, if so, the property would have consequently gone to the heir-at-law. In breaking up an old chaise, after the fire, an old writing-desk was found, and out of this writing desk tumbled the will by which the whole fortune, 30,0001. a year, fell to the devisee, quite another person. The only opponents to a proper system of registration were the attorneys of Yorkshire, where the registration was monopolized. At the time of the Reform Bill they pla carded the towns in that shire with Bills callingupon the landed interest to resist the Bill, which threatened to in- The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented a num ber of petitions against the increased Maynooth grant. These were petitions against the proposed endowment. His Lordship then presented petitions from Glasgow and several other places against all grants to religious bodies, one of which, from the Free Church of St. Cyrus, and Dr. Keith, its head man, of European eminence. These might be said to express the feelings of the Dissenters, and to exhibit the force of the voluntary principle. RAILWAYS. Lord BROUGHAM was about to speak, when Earl FITZWILLIAM begged to interrupt the Noble Lord, by moving for the appointment of a Select Committee for inquiry into the representations and com plaints of landowners whose lands were intersected by any railway. LAW REFORM. Lord BROUGHAM could not help expressing his pleasure at having given way to his Noble Friend, espe cially the Noble Lord connected with Yorkshire; and he was rejoiced to find that the subject was likely to be taken up with some prospect of utility. He had risen to bring under their Lordships' notice that subject of universal and enduring interest—the improve ment of the jurisprudence of the country. It was now seventeen years since he had first brought this sub ject under the attention of Parliament in another House, of which he was at that time a Member. The re sult of his Motions in that place had been the ap pointment of two commissions, one for the im provement of real property law, and the other for the improvement of the process of the courts of law. The results of the reports of these two Com mis3ions was the suggestion or the passing of Acts for the amendment of the Civil Law therefore, felt confidence in the recollection that every Noble Member he addressed, had more or less an in terest in the land, and consequently in the subject then before them. The first amendment in the case affect ing real property was the abolition of the law of fine and recovery. When he had occupied the place of his Noble Friend on the Woolsack he had re medied that defect. Before that reform, the tenant en tail, if late in life, and wishing to settle his property upon those near to him by ties of consanguinity, could not do it. The • delay, the enormous expense of fine and recovery, threatened and deterred him. No longer, however, did such odious anomalies exist; by the inter position of the Legislature, that disgraceful tax upon property was removed. He knew of many landholders who at the time of the passing of that measure, which abolished so monstrous an abuse, waited a year, II nd, fortunately being in the prime of life, waited without injury, and by that course saved themselves hundreds, ay, thousands of pounds. Some silly and old-fangled notions at first furiously opposed it. It was fancied that property, like gravitation, must always be acting down wards, and, like that notion upon gravitation, it was an absurd fallacy, for gravitation did not necessarily require a tendency downwards except as it was impelled by some collateral power. If a man died then, without brothers or sisters, it was held impossible that his pro perty should ascend backwards up to his nearest rela tions, and it virtually descended to those of whom the devisee was utterly regardless. But all these fantastic absurdities had been overcome, and happily they had become obsolete. The statute of limitations next suc • of the country. One of these laws was the improve ment of the law with •respect to personal rights, which were called in the language of the Courts the law of real and pvrsonal actions. It was with a geat sense of obligation that he referred to the services of the eminent men who had given their services on those commissions. The other of these commissions had reference tothe rea property of the country. The utmost diligence had been used on those commissions to ascertain the source of the evils, and to devise the most efficient remedies. He could not, forget that on one of those commissions was the distinguished man now the Chief Baron of the Ex. chequ.n., anti that with him were those eminent members okhe profes,ion, Mr. Baron Alderson. and Mr. Justice Wightms,n. To the other were added those distinguished conveyancers, Brodie, Tyrrell, Carr, Duval, and Du charest. No: should he forget that to the real property commission was - added also the able assistance of his Noble and LearnA Friend behind him, who was after wards Attornu- General ; and brought to his duties not only the great lal)ur, unsurpassed industry, and exten sive experience in the courts of law, but also those va rious and high talents which had ven him so prominent a place in his procession. In addition to these benefits there was n 1.40 a , jeht of gratitude clue to his Noble and Learned Friend, in that he KA given his entire time to the commission, and during the whole period of his at tendance on that commission had refused all remunera ceeded, and by its great and invaluable requirements had been made effectual in producing a reform more complete, more salutary, than any which had yet cha racterised and purified our code. It was intended by the Legislature to be a quiet enactment, to appease liti gation, to supply the defect of insufficient titles, ar.d, in the graphic words of one of their ablest brethren, Lord Plunkett ; when addressing the other House, " when Time stood with his scythe mowing down the myriads of his victims, politic humanity had put an hour-glass in his other hand, by which he measured the duration and rapidity of the strokes." But that remedy had been un happily unsuccessful; the scythe had too often prevailed over the sand, and another more effectual measure must be sought. Instances had frequently occurred of a tenancy in tail. enduring for 250 years, and then the old title re vived, and, though subject to devise, embarrassment, mortgage, or exchange, and thus treated as a fee simple, up suddenly started an adverse, au unexpected claimant, and ousted the possessor from his inheritance. But the great misfortune to be dreaded in this state of the law was that a deed of conveyance might have been signed and lying by for a number of years, and then up started against the present owner some fatal objection that never till then had been dreamed of. The Commission of which he had been speaking having removed all the chances of those objections, he did think that on that account alone its labours had proved of great value. But between the Ecclesiastical Commission and the commis sion on real property some slight difference existed, but it was only as to a question of time, of twenty, or thirty, or forty years.—(Hear, hear.) But now all reversions were effectually barred, and all real actions, with one exception, were swept away by the Commissioners' report. But now, as he had said he would, he would show their Lordships what remained to be done. He had shown that the descent of property, and the right to the possession of property, and the title, had all been made clear and distinct, and, therefore, property had in reality been made more valuable than ever. But then there was the question of the transfer of property. Nothing could be conceived worse than the position of a person who wished to convey real estates, or an estate held by fee simple, or by leasehold, or for a term of years; and there was, also, the question of the conveyance of property held in perpetuity, which was one of great importance. Before the report of this Commission, in every deed of sale or transfer there was such an endless prolixity of statement in the preamble, the recital, and all other parts of it, that it was impos sible it could be correct. To those who possessed large estates, perhaps the expense of those deeds would be no object ; but in the transfer of a small estate the expense was so great that the owner could not afford it; and the expense of transferring one acre was as great as that of conveying one thousand. It was not the mere expense of the parchment; it was the ex pense of the draftsmen; and the words were so nume rous that the chances of error were very great indeed; and he questioned whether any person who signed one of these documents ever read it, or did more than sign his name and acknowledge the deed as his. Indeed, he knew one conveyancer, a very respectable man, in whose deeds many mistakes were discovered long after he had died.—(Laughter.) In another case, that where a large property in Oxfordshire was bequeathed, owing to the omission of a single line, litigation ensued; the matter was brought before the Court of Queen's Bench; the Court of Queen's Bench decided in one way; the Court of -Common Pleas another, and ultimately the House of -Lords decided with the Court of Common Pleas. Thus mistakes had occurred which might have been fatal to the claims of the rightful owner. Why should not these matters be made plain, and reduced to as narrow a compass as possible? It would benefit not only the landed but the commercial interest, for when a merchant gave 20,0001. for an es state, he would, of course, desire its being fully secured to him. Why should not the Legislature facilitate the sale and transfer of land, and prevent the possibility of a bad title through legal informality? Why should they not protect the buyer from the effects of technical flaws, by consolidating the law upon this subject into one short deed? And the Bill be proposed to bring in had a copy of that deed—four lines, and no more, which he judged fully sufficient to answer all the purposes, and AI hick had been entirely approved of by four of the most able conveyancers in the country. An Act of Parlia ment in two pages would, he trusted, be passed, enact ing that whenever used this form of conveyance would be guaranteed as to its entire sufficiency, and that all had been done which the law required. Of course, if there were persons who preferred a more ample and complex form of conveyance, who would rather see their titles on ten sheets of parchment than on a single page, therwould be at liberty to hazard it. If a man preferred a large form, wordy and involved, let him try it, and God speed him—let him trust to the lawyers and to the courts of law. The Bill he proposed con tained the very form which would be necessary and the enacting words, both in case of sales and in case of lease. When he saw the small amount of rent, and the small value of annual payments frequently made, he thought it was of still more importance to the poor than to the rich that there should be a clear and secure form.—(Hear, hear.) A defect had grown up in our laws from the separation of law and equity. The matter required some explanation. When a person mortgaged any real property he did it, generally speak ing, on a term of years, 500 or sometimes even 1,000 years. The object of the term was, that the mortgagee might be satisfied, and the purposes of the transaction accomplished. In the course of some years this might be the case, and properly speaking there ought to be then a surrender of the term by the mortgagee. But this was very often neglected. The term was, there fore, outstanding ; or it might be that the term surren dered to the mortgagor was kept alive by him for some purpose of his own. The term might be supposed as ideal, nominal, spectral—but it was no such thing, it wrs a potent agen t, o f ten ca p a bl e o f crea ti n g mischief or de struction. This spectral creature of the imagination was sometimes thought harmless—but it was not so in many instances, which must be familiar to his Nobl e and Learned: Friends. Suppo-ing the term out. The borrower wishes to borrow more money and creates another term,he and does not tell the person of who m h e borrowsthat there is another term outstanding. The second termor has only the life interest—because the other t erm • sum. That leal estate. The borrower borrows a third very often happened, for generally speaking a m m . an who once borrowed must borrow again. H e went to the third lender who knew nothing of what had passed. H e did not know that the borrower had not given him th e legal estate as well as the others. He lent the money, but found there was an intermediate term, or not find ing it thought there might be, for he saw the borrower go a fourth time to a lender. He becomes startled and goes to the first termor, from whom he gets possession. In this manner be, as lawyers technically and expres sively say, squeezes out the middle lender, and the middle lender, though his title was older, so lost his money and security. In fact, both were as effec tion for his services from his clients or the public. The result of thee inquiries had been, that a great change had taken place, nut only as it regarded the law of real propeety, but in the practice of the courts, and the, law of evidenc::. Ti.V,Se, who considered that no improvement had take.: place in the law, would recollect the state it was in, in 1828, at whieh time his late much-respected friend Lord Eldon was at the head of the law of the country. A great change had undoubtedly taken place since that time. Great and salutary changes had been brought into operation, so great, indeed, that were any of the old lawyers to arise from their present re pose, where they lay undisturbed by the call of clients, they would imagine they had been brought into existence in a new world—(ilear, hear)—and wou'd be altogether unable to recognise the present state of the law, so much did it differ from that which they had formerly supported. Such a result must have afforded the greeeest satisfaction to those who sup ported not only amendment and improvement in the law of the country, but the Legislature itself. Since the 7th of February, 1828, of the many improvements in the law then suggested, in fifty-eight instances im provements had been effected, and sixty-six carried into effect as the law of the land. Not only in the matters then suggested had improvements been effected, but numbers of others incidentally introduced had also been taken up, recommended by the Common Law Commis sion, and carried into effect by the Government. The criminal law of this country was no longer as heretofore in its general aspect the most cruel of all codes of civi lised countries, short of those who inflicted punishment by torture. But in respect to capital punishments, it had become the most humane in executing upon male factors the punishment of death for grave offences. It was, in this respect, at the present time, the most temperate, cauticus, and abstinent of any civilised code in the world at the present day. In the measures of reform carried out the Court of Chancery had not been excepted, where formerly the law's delay had wrapped its suitors in its endless folds. The pro ceedings there had been reduced to within moderate confines, moderate when compared with the time when Lard Eldon presided over it. In other Courts impor tant improvements been effected in their proceed ings. He might well say they had much reason to be satisfied at these changes for the better ; but, great as they had been, much yet remained to be effected—much was yet required to be s vept away.. These successes ought to encourage them to proceed in the improvement of the present system—not too fast, however, but at a moderate and duly regulated speed. The past success that bad attended their efforts ought to encourage them to re newed efforts in the future. And therefore he, so en couraged, felt bound to go on—not to rush wholesale • and unadvisedly into alterations, but to carefelly look at all—to examine all, so as to see where so much had been done, and what has been left undone. He would shortly state, in a few words, what he thought ought to be done ; and he would not point out one single defect without at the same time poluting out a safe and easy remedy for those defects. And first, with regard to the courts of law, he could not but admit that since the year 1828 great and important and extensive reforms had taken place ia those courts. He could not but recollect that at that time what he chiefly complained of was the different amount of business in the different courts of common law—that whilst the Court of Queen's Bench was over whelmed with work, and whilst the Court of Common Pleas was sufficiently worked, the Court of Exchequer, owing to a certain monopoly of the officers of the Court, had scarcely anything to do. That defect had been remedied. The monopoly the officers had been abo lished, a great pract;cal reform had taken place. and his Noble tend Learned Friend at present on the Woolsack had accepted the office of Lord Chief Baron, had brought his great talent and great experience to bear upon that Court, which ever since that time had been as well em ployed as any other. The opening of the Court of Common Pleas was another reform which had taken place in the year 1831. That Court had been opened by a warrant from the Crown, and not by an Act of Parliament. There could be no doubt but an Act of Parliament could have opened the Court, but, unhappily, it was doubtful whether or not the Crown pos sessed the power. The opening of the Court was opposed, and his Noble Friend and himself had been of opinion that the warrant of the Crown was of no effect unless authorised by an Act of Parlia ment, and therefore the Court was again closed; but he hoped that the matter would be reconsidered, and that the Legislature would supply the defect whieh alone prevented the opening of the Court. Then again there was one Court, consisting of three judges, which had no business, and which gave no satisfaction to suitors or to the profession. That Court had been abolished. It had been instituted in consequence of a simple notion then prevailing that in the common law courts there could not • be more than twelve judges. His Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, nut frightened at this super stition, had appointed three other judges, and there were now fifteen judges of the c our t s of common law, thought that many months wou ld not elapse and e be fore they, would find that th ese fifteen would not y be sufficient, and that it would be absolutely necessary to make some other arrangement for an in crease o f t h e judicial power. However, he would not allude further to a subject which was still a matter for consideration. Another subject cf complaint at that time had been that the commencement of the periods of the Trinity and Easter terms Were not fixed. That def et had been re medied by a Bill which had been introduced by Sir James Scerlett, when he was Attorney-General. The last important reform which had been effected, had been by the abolition of the office of Welsh judge. The gentlemen who held the offices of Welsh judges were, during one half of the year, practising as barristers in Westminster Hall, and during the other half of the year going the circuit as judges. They were Members of the House of Commons many -of them, and of course voted according to their habitual predilections, and yet. in Wales they were judges in the last resort in criminal cases, and subject to appeal in civil cases also. These jurisdictions had since been en tirely abolislvd. Another compla i n t which he., had made in the year j£l2.s had noiV, he must confess, ceased to have much fentdation, and the credit of the doing away with this abuse was due to the present Govern ment. He had complained at that time of party-spirit influencing the Lord Chancellor, in whom the nomination of judges was vested, in appointing men to that high judicial office. Such had been the practice at that time. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MAY 20, 1845. Learned Friend had prevented him from carrying on his Bill, and now his Noble and Learned Friend was unable to proceed with his own.—(A laugh.) He (Lord Campbell) would not now go into a discussion of the Bill, in which he expressed a general concurrence. Lord BROUGHAM said he agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend as to the importance of the Re gistry Bill, and, in fact, he had it prepared, and held it now in his hand, and the only reason why he did not propose to move now that it be printed with the eight other Bills was, that he did not think much progress could be made with it this session. The Noble and Learned Lord then moved severally the first reading of the following Bills : An Act for securing the real Independence of Parlia • ment An Act for amending and declaring the law of mar riage; An Act to facilitate the conveyance of property; An Act to render the return of satisfactory terms un necessary; An Act to give a remedy by way of declaratory suit"; An Act to facilitate the admission in evidence of cer tain official and other documents; An Act to enable parties to be examined on trial of civil actions; and An Act to facilitate the administration of criminal justice. The Bills were read a first time, and ordered to be printed. The House then adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, May 19. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. vade their rights, and which would expose their private legal transactions to the public gaze, although it was expressly provided that nobody could see any re gistered document without being authorised by the party who was interested in it. He would bring in a Bill on that measure, but one considera tion—one duty—deterred him : he felt that they must enlighten and improve the minds of the landed interest, far the purpose of exciting them to a rebellion to emancipate themselves from the penal statutes under which they at present laboured. Unless they did that, he thought that he should, by introducing such a Bill, run the risk of losing the others. He hoped that their Lordships would not think that his opinion in favour of registration was in any way weakened ; but if it were put in the same boat with the rest, he thought that the felon of the crew might injure the rest. That was the reason be did not bring in that measure. The reports of the Common Law Commissioners alluded to the new rules for the practice of these courts, and that at once did away with a very large number of the objections urged in February, 1828. With respect to the law of evidence, much remained still to be done ; but the principal objec tion urged in 1828 had been removed by the Lord Chief Justice's Bill, where evidence of any kind is not refused on account of discredit. That Bill contained important improvements on the law of evidence, and the great improvement war, with respect to the length of time during which church-rates would suffer from the Sta tute of Limitation. The limitation as to bonds was also removed by a late statute. The law of evidence had been much improved, as now an eldest son, being in person a remainder in estate tail to any man, may necessarily be examined. No interest, however great, would now be sufficient to exclude any man's evidence. They examined a de fendant in Chancery, and why should they not do the same in the courts of law under a due restriction? He now would wish to call the attention of their Lordships to two great improvements—one in the civil and the other in the criminal jurisprudence. In Scotland, if a man possess a right by marriage or in any other way to a property that may come in question, he may institute an action for the purpose of having it declared whether he had such a right or not. Not so in England, for no man can tell whether he have property existing in Scotland or in England, because there was no means of bringing a declaratory action. The criminal part was that to which he wished to call the attention of the Noble Lord on the woolsack. The Lord Chief Justice felt a deal of inconvenience at not being able to send more frequent commissions of oyer and terminer to the several counties in England. The Central Criminal Court made it im possible that any person should be imprisoned for any felony beyond a few months ; but if he happen to be tried out of that district he may be imprisoned for several months. Why should that be ? Because there were not justices enough. But if they would create suf ficient justices, they might send offenders from the coun ties where the offences were committed to counties where the justices were, and they would enable the Government to send judges four times instead of twice a year, to all the counties in England. Hitherto they had been deal ing with the rights of property, real and personal, and the actions and remedies consequent upon such cases ; but the most important of all these were the matters which may affect property, or the rights, not of property, but of real estates. In this country there were many per sons, and some of them of the highest rank in circum stances, whom no one can declare to be married or not. Was not such practices shameful, and contrary to all humanity? and hence arose a conflict between the laws of Holland and England, which was quite disgraceful. Lord Hardwick's Act was most inconsistent in itself ; it required that no person shall marry under twenty-one years of age without the consent of his parents, but with banns they were allowed. It was most inconsistent, for they might go to Birmingham, where four hundred banns are proclaimed every morning ; or they might go to Scotland for 5/, and come back married, and the marriage was as good, according to the customs of the country, as any marriage in the world. That law was made to check the poor man from carrying away a rich heiress. But they go off to Scotland, if they even get a few pounds, so that the law is perfectly inoperative for the purpose for which it was intended. But he (Lord Brougham) proposed that they should require a twelve months' residence in Scot land, before the divorce of an English marriage could be given, and three weeks' residence in Scotland before a Gretna-green marriage could be considered good. It was also necessary that the forms should be according to the customs of England, but they were different in all countries ; and how could they tell whether marriages contracted in England Scotland or even in the East Indies were lawful He hoped that they would quiet the minds of the people on that subject. Before concluding he would just state that there was no law more satisfactory than that respecting the debtor and creditor, whereby imprisonment was never inflicted for debt but in cases where fraud was in tended or for wilful extravagance. He hoped that the Members of both Houses of Parliament would no longer consider the freedom from arrest as their prerogative, or the privilege of their situation. While arrest was law, it was quite fit that the) should be free from arrest, because they might be imprisoned from factious purposes, or from the oppression of the Crown. The law makers should not be law breakers; but admitting that they ought to be free from arrest, why should they not have the privilege of paying their debts?—why should the Members of the Houses of Commons and Lords be the only persons in the com munity exempt from the payment of debts? That was a question which he wished to have answered, and which he would enable the Houses of Parliament to answer before he was much older. Let them see a Bill passed to make the Members of the Houses of Parliament liable to the payment of their debts out of their property, and to be punished for frau dulently making :away with it. Let them not be re duced to such a deplorable state, that a man seeking for a 30/. debt, could not get thirty pence. Was it fit that they should continue the representatives of the Cominons in one House, or hereditary justices in the other ? How could a lord condemn a man for having defrauded his creditors, when he himself was doing the same every day ? They might have the courage to re fuse this Bill, but that courage would ooze out by de grees, and he believed that that man would not have to live very long, who would survive to see that courage. A bankrupt, according to Mr. Smith's Bill, could not sit in the House of Commons, but there was no law at present declaring that an insolvent man was not fit to make laws which he himself could not obey. He had now done. Some, if not all of these Bills, would not lass. He had no manner of doubt that he would live to see the whole of them pass. He hoped and trusted that he should live to see the Registry Bill pass, and to see a criminal code enacted ; and that, in addition to the benefits which this Parliament and Government had con ferred upon the country, a digest of the laws would follow, which would he an appropriate sequel.—(Hear, hear.) If so, he should rest in peace and content from his labours, satisfied with having had a hand, however feeble—a share, however humble—in erecting a column to the glories of the British Legislature —(Hear, hear)—a column of the Composite order, as originating in the virtues, the experience, and the solid sense of the community, and adorned with all the various fruits of all the various branches, which compose and constitute and represent all classes and all interests of this community alike.—(Hear, hear.) And if he should have the happiness to aid the Ministers of the Crown in doing that great work, he had no wish that any name but theirs should appear upon the column. Lord CAMPBELL said he should have been happy to enter into ell the topics which his Noble and Learned Friend had so ably introduced, if the hour of the night were not so discouraging, and the state of the House itself so formidable. Not even the eloquence of his Noble and Learned Friend, who had the happiness to make the driest of all subjects the most amusing—(A laugh)—nor even the importance of the subjects themselves, had been able to detain more Nobl6 Lords than himself (Lord Campbell) upon that (the Opposition) side, and the Noble President of the Council on the other. The other Ministers of the Crown had retired to deliberate over the affairs of the State—or perhaps to join at the re• freshment table, where his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack was doubtless in haste to join them. The LORD CHANCELLOR—No, not.—(A laugh.) Lord CAMPBELL hoped that his Noble and Learned Friend would outlive the passing of these Bills. Indeed his Noble Friend seemed to bare nine lives, like a cat, and perhaps brought in these nine Bills to-night as the auspicious number.—(A laugh.) There was one of these Bills which he should most decidedly support, and that was the Registry Bill, which was the one of the nine with which his Noble Friend was not now prepared to go on. When he (Lord Campbell) was a Member of the other House, there was a Committee of the House of Commons to inquire into the subject, and they were almost unanimous in reporting in favour of a general Majesty e honour K of i being lvllliam register. B u t th e o bj ec t was defeated by the intrigues of the co un t r y a tt orneys , w h o we r e s till powerful enough t to obstruct the measure . Wh en he (Lord Campbell) had appointed he hFesuhro Solicitor-General otlthdnh t oet only f ora to time hida stipulation made with hi m was, that t had passed away, renew his aagainstst m t a central register t Billa least, or until the prejudice po ve p r a , ss that the fo re r that purpose. He must, ob serve , however, was a sort of poetic justice in the case. His Noble and Lord LOFTUS, for Woodstock, and Sir W. W. WYNNE, 'or Denbighshire, took the oaths and their seats. NEW WRIT. On the motion of Mr. GASKILL, a new writ was or dered to be issued for Down, in the room of the Earl of Hillsborough, now Marquis of Downshire. Sir J. Y. BULLER presented a petition against the West Cornwall Railway Bill. The Hemel Hempsted Small Tenements Bill was read a third time and passed. Petition.; were presented against the Exeter and Ply mouth Railway Bill. On the motion of Mr. SPOONER, the Bristol and Gloucester Railway Bill and the Birmingham and Glou cester Railway Bill (Gloucester Extension, Stoke, Bir mingham and Midland Railway Junction), were read a second time. THE CORNWALL RAILWAY BILL. Lord COURTENAY moved " That the petition of Charles Jeffery (presented 16th May) be referred to the Committee on the Cornwall Railway Bill ; and that it be an instruction to the Committee, to permit the petitioner to be heard, by himself, his counsel, or agent, upon his petition." Mr. GREENE opposed the motion. had the peti tioner attended to his own interests at the proper period, the House would not have been troubled with this motion at the present time. He did not think that the general rule in those cases should be set aside in favour of the petition. The gallery was then cleared for a division but none took place, as the motion, on being put, was negatived. LONDON AND YORK RAILWAY. Mr. P. IL )WARD presented a petition from Carlisle, against the 30th clause of the London and York Rai' way Bill. BANKING IN IRELAND. Sir W. SOMERVILLE presented a petition from .;he shareholders and directors of the Hibernian Bank, praying that the Company might be included in any provisions of the new Bill regulating the banking system of Ireland. Several other petitions were pre sented from other places to the same effect ; also ap, ti tion from the guardians of the Drogheda Union, pray ing for an alteration in the law of settlement as regarded the poor-law in Ireland. MAYNOOTH GRANT. Mr. STRUTT presented a petition from a congregation of Dissenters in Derby against the grant to Maynooth. The Hon. Member also presented a petition in favour of the Bill. Colonel ROLLESTON presented petitions from places in Cambridgeshire against the Maynooth Endowment Bill. Mr. HASTIE presented several petitions to the same effect from places in Scotland. Mr. STANTON presented a petition from landowners, farmers, and others in Gloucestershire, complaining of agricultural distress; and also a petition from Stroud against the grant to Maynooth. Sir J. HANDIER presented several petitions against the grant. MERCIIANT SERVICE BILL. The HON. BARONET presented, also, a petition, signed by three thousand seamen and merchants. complaining of the operation of the Merchant Service Bill. PUBLIC PETITIONS. _ Mr. B. HUGHES presented a petition against the Maynooth Bill. Dr. BO WRING presented a petition praying for the modification of the criminal code Sir W JAMES presented a petition from Hull in favour of the Maynooth grar t. Captain JONES presented a petition from London derry against the Maynooth grant. Lord HARRY VANE presented petitions from Dur ham ag ainst the grant to Maynooth. Mr. GROGAN presented petitions from Ireland to the same effect. Mr. 11. BERKELEY presented a petition from the Chamber of Commerce in Bristol, praying for an inquiry into the Insolvency Act passed last session, with the view of affording a remedy. Mr. SPOONER presented petitions from places in Stafford, signed by 1,450 persons, against the grant to Maynooth. Mr. CHRISTIE, and other Hon. Members presented similar petitions. Mr. ALLIX presented six petitions from places in- Cambridgeshire against the grant to Maynooth. Numerous petitions, both for and against the grant, were presented, but in such confusion, that it was im possible to report them individually. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. COLQIJIIOUkT gave notice that he would to morrow present a petition from the London Conference against the grant to Maynooth. Mr. FERItAND gave notice that, on the third read ing of the Maynooth Endowment Bill, he would with draw the amendment of which he had given notice, as he had been requested by several of his friends to do so, in order that the division should be taken on the motion of the lion. Member for Gloucestershire. On the motion of Colonel PAGET, leave of absence was granted to Mr. W. Stanley for three weeks, on the ground of ill-health. Oa the motion of Colonel T. WOOD, leave of absence was granted to Mr. Forster for a fortnight, on urgen business. teed to assess damages, first having served an eight days' notice. Now, as it was impossible to say how soon the plaintiff might enter upon judgment, it would be ad4sable that the House should proceed with as little delay as possible, because, after the damages had been assessed, the plaintiff might sue for final judgment, and proceed to levy the damages on the goods of the defendant. Under these circumstances he (the Solicitor-General) felt a great degree of anxiety upon the subject, and how necessary it would be for the House to a ct promptly upon it. But at the same time they should act with calmness and deliberation, and take care;they had all the necessary materials for so doing before them. He found, upon referring to the case of Stockdale, that Lord Campbell, the then Attorney- General, moved for a Committee of this House upon that occasion ; and he (the Solicitor-General) did think it would be extremely desirable to follow a simi lar course on the present occasion, and therefore he would be prepared to move a resolution to that effect. And then he would propose, in the terms of that resolu tion, that a Select Committee should be appointed, for the purpose of inquiring into the proceedings in the case of Howard and Gossett, and then to report their decisions and observations thereupon to the House. He (the Solicitor-General) would bo prepared, in the course of the evening, to lay on the table of the House the names of the proposed Committee, so that the House might come to a decision upon the subject. Lord HOWICK said that he did not object to the motion of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor- General, but he could not help saying that the present position of the House realised the remarks of the Hon. and Learned Member for Worcester (Sir T. Wilde) on a former occasion. He said that when he re collected the weak and pusillanimous coarse which the House had on a former occasion adopted, and were now proceeding to adopt, he found it only realising the opi nion expressed by that Hon. and Learned Gentleman : They were dragged on step by step till they lost all their privileges by their submissive concessions to the courts of law. . admitted the wrongs and oppressions which the Irish nation had suffered under the domination of a more powerful country; but he did not think that a further extension of the bad principle of that endowment would do anything to ameliorate the pre sent condition of the people, or to compensate for their pest wrongs. He disclaimed all feeling of hostility to his fellow Catholic subjects—he disclaimed all participa tion in the " No Popery" cry.—(Hear, hear.) But what he asserted was, that while they were applying what were called remedial measures in Ireland, they were put- ting on blisters upon England ; in fact, they were not laying the axe to the root of the evil in Ireland, while they were creating ill-feeling and ill-will in England. It had been said the Dissenters were inconsistent in re- ceiving the Regium Donum and raising the cry that had been raised against the grant to the College of May nooth. If the assertions that had been made were true, the Dissenters would certainly have been most incon- Sir R. 11. INGLIS said that he had not intended to have said one word upon that occasion, but when he found the Noble Lord taunting the Legislature of the country with pusillanimity and weakness, he for one could not sit still in his place without replying to him. He (Sir H. H. Inglis) was present in the Court of Queen's Bench, and he could verify the assertion of the Noble and Learned Gentleman, that the Learned Judges there did not decide against the warrant as a warrant, but they ob jt cted to it that no specific object was mentioned in it. If the observations of the Noble Lord were :correct it was suffi dent that the Sergeant-at- Arms should come to the place and seize the first Peer of the realm. He hoped that the House would not have the pusillanimity to deal otherwise with inferior persons. If the powers of the House be good for Justice Coleridge and Justice Denman, they were good for every Justice. If he wished to struggle with the courts of law, he would bring the Lord Chief Justice before the bar of the House, instead of the sheriff, or any other ministerial officer. Every other warrant specified the case and the time that the person should remain in custody. The warrant did not constitute such authority as they acted on in the name of sistent ; but there were many - of them that objected as strongly as any denomination could do to the receipt of the Regium Donum. Acting on those opinions. he should vote against the third reading of the Bill when it came before the House, and he would do so on the same prin- ciple with that avowed by the Hon. Member for Dum fries, namely, that the Church should not be protected by the State. The gallery was then ordered to be cleared, but the House did not proceed to a division. Mr. EWART said that he had justified the principle on which he intended to vote, and he would not, against the opinion of a majority of Hon. Members, press the division.—(We understood that during our absence the amendment had been negatived.) - Mr. BANKES, in proposing the amendment of which he had given notice, " that the Bill be read a third time that day six months," which was tantamount to its not being read at all, begged for the indulgence of the House, particularly as he would request their attention to some previous portions of the debate, and he might, perhaps, the more think himself entitled to that indul gence, that he had not hitherto addressed the House, but had readily given way to " the groups" of Hon. Members who had risen on every night to explain their votes to their constituents.—(Hear.) He had the more readily assented to this, because there was no necessity for himself explaining his vote. He said this, not because he assumed to him self any degree of merit, or because he wished to throw any imputation on those Hon. Members who had acted otherwise than he did. He would ask the House posed an increase to the grant, amounting, in the whole to nearly 40,0004 This effort, hoe ever, signally fsiled; but the original grant of 8,0001. had been continued to be paid. A regular account of the items of the receipts and expenditure of the College had been demanded an d given, when it appeared that not one penny had been received from any Roman Catholic for its sp port. The real facts of the matter were, that to the establishment at Maynooth was a scheme maintain and educate 2,000 Roman Catholic priests, and a certain sum was set apart for bringing stus in their noviciate. None of the Roman Catholic laity were ever admitted into the college, which was in effect nothing less than a monastery. Many Members of both Houses expressed their disapprobation of this institution. The Parliament had been induced to establish it by the exhibition of great cunning, as it originally had con templated only the maintenance of an institution for the education of the Roman Catholic youth in general, end not for the priests in particular. The Roman Cal, laity did not contribute anything to its support, for theY knew the college did not require their assistance. IMritl the last session of the Irish Parliament, a measure had b , en introduced to make a grant of something less then 8,000/. ; it was passed through the Commons, but a . eventually thrown out in the Lords. It was e If s • torious fact that thirty of the students of ! . 98 . Maywooth institution joined the rebellion in me A visitation of Trinity College was made in the ss ",.. • year, and it was ascertained that 17 of the students we found to be . 1* imp mated. Thus there were 17 studenets. from Trinity, whilst the students at Maynooth wer e t he duced to 69. It was true that this wail given trace ° 1 authority of a partisan, and that it appeared in a t it written for the purpose of facilitating the union, but sufficiently showed how grievously the principles been was adopted at the establishment of Maynooth departed from, and how different was this from the k e e ° o dowment which had now been so touc h re s h P a n es' of during the debate on this question. .:' - re nt tablishment of Dunboyne was altogether on a diffe ring footing. Much, too, had been said of restitution dntio. this debate; but he would ask to whom was this res its is tion to be made? Was it to be made to the Dr b ore institutions from whom the property was ol d 1,40 been taken? In Spain, during the time the l U:r oo ted. was in full power, such a principle might he u' here the sßßbtlhuleuoT the French i t ahves aintarnn:enpncEisrcsioahhrnmtaechtndiehopc Catholic .feooenatwarherneoesidsui ago, gndio e oolui v n:lg e dehw r tv y ht eeacervsn.epeb o erdrex t h omejm e area r ieocki i ontsewa c ewr codsesund‘h:yn; such ont r ah : ow: e c e 1 ; 0:5 cr i sihocit f 0.0 t. w oeshcit ies r: i t j i ° e l piodeshoto milting members of the Roman Cfilholie 0 11 % 1 4 1 0 wa s British Parliament, a friend of his, whos e , nr DeWit t° always entitled to much weight, had pointeo t ° ben ches and both in a publication out of doors and on thet i n de' of that House had said that he had been Pr L e ..A sen s een thl bates of that august assembly, wherein he s"" Oolis e " citizens of Catholic Belgium and of PrOteStan,C ‘stesto seated together in calm deliberation under a Jr; w ere Monarch, where the interests of both P k , rt i i i he h e : ; equally considered. This observation, wsli e code in lieved had great influence at the time , v e vas i B3o, ll ,.t ltahnedsapnridngßeolfg Belgium e a r n e d se i p n ara th te e d. a_ .( utu H in e n er, o b t es " ! : )2 o i :. the College of Ma nooth was first founded ace"seoten tended as a general academy, and not as wa s reP. wer e to a simply monastic institution. And if the Pit a prile be allowed that it was to be conducted on the s' t 7cathr ciples as other academic institutions of the if lt l . us t he lfr lie Church, the same objection still held. For se e se' s ; versity of Oxford had been conducted on the w ,. hs bsieveenr and des ifw h th er e e, G h e r e al a s would o u u l d n i ask, v e rs i tw oi would eus nd to elAri Irish Lutherbeent o o, 1,1 cp s iislitie : lior i g. ducted with silar customs, where wall ° kt etts // t ilt appeared? Bu i s uch was not the case, f 4 ir s i c( ' fer,;be known that laymen as well as those lute!) . us . A 4 priesthood were admitted to those institutiO. c 0 tie : . Right Hon. Baronet had stated that this canievvls s will' question,for he had in the middle (Shot sess i° .„. o o An; intention to bring in some measure to Itur eve syttm. n o nooth, but this was no improvement wher e *ears pea that was good about the grant of previous ) s i o n t,„ omitted in the present Bill—when all its c, ote t the os e l, the State was done away with, or when l e tbe ni d c' e se , tie which prevented entire separation wa s B ight Poe that was to be paid. How was it that the t uti the Baronet, during his nine years seat gi. Opposition benches, had not proposed t ° , ha t the hip original grant? There was little doubt but . ede d to is nistry then in power would have read if t ie 0 1 i doing .d that wish. He had had the power himself of truly s o 0 , that House at any moment. It had been e d, fa i c s, the breadth of this question was not peee' r h Aio Chuf f - eh tended to the whole endowment of the cathedraCat"l sPl'de Its height exceeded the height of their t w as O s l o and reached to the throne itself. If this g il° a Cst b° is ven t - las t ' who could tell that anything s hould no idle o r fan for successor to the thron.-? This was f o r notion—(Hear, near)—for the Mern whose judgment h t i h eh e harnigohhensttedrestPoeet i'l'c'arss:tneellefitesiorrkilljsln.:loll: He would add what was so beautifu tiful words of the poet, after the str iking P iii, he says— Thousands had sunk on the oround overpowe iitylletoldssinvagthes ;Vs and thenThe go w e e s a o ry n to to rsehsot,wanthclatthwe ben iish were lying indiscriminately on the battle n i g w e ',. O e ll : i l 11 / former said to the latter, " Change ling"' t he Jr°ol fight you over azain." So he would sa Hon. Baronet, dissolve the Parliament laid t hey : , ht ir pf ig i him over again, and checkmate his kings "" -he Sse`" his He would remind the Right Hon. Baronet thedori for the Home Department of his own conditiet., he fr i L e o strenuous support of the Reform Bill ; nu u - 0 the,flef that it was useless to beseech him to list e , n o t lee. - 0 1 of the country, he would defy him to d' s 4 e - a if f dtli g , might beat the section with whom he s ' t hefuhsill' House, but he (Mr. Bankes) well knew thl i ! 0 - be 0 ' country with them, and with that i m press lci tio . .0 1 move that the Bill be read that day si% tu, °l/ „ l ost er„ O s , Mr. MACGEACHY said that, alter the "WO consideration of the measure, he he ° . 8 , 0 unhesitating determination of reading. He would do so because this 5 ',, r e tort — l ess ii _l which the most distorted vision could not oil 0 En by act of " concession" to Ireland. It wee tr io V tile ° of justice. The Government, it yi i s i of 00 0 0 to encounter difficulties, and the prin e r &ia il l efe_ ft h arose from the repugnancy of ° g ot, 11° 60d v ; to it as a religious measure. As a p e tite eus hl fr oe j and as a member of the Constitution, bit he to / c ost; reason why he should deny equal ki s and , c oa t ,i Christians of the Rumen Catholic &Ot t ; c 011 0 1 , 41 0 00 by these principles, he felt impersti/e'l 1, of d 0 / 1, Chi lrev M in li ° ' support the measure. True, t he bush e,, h ore te r said the Church of Rome was in e rror , r te the s is, s supportiwng. • .ploto 00 standard of justice that would eroPo! to I P nio l° church.Eb e n t g w l e a e n n d t t h o Te d she e i s n e y hwu t a h rsc e hn b eos e .n questione fi l t t benefits was o s f s e a d o ti cif c ut il l t s i et ° 7 l, goo eo i cif rte' oo l i:0 ° 5 1cl t : seven millions of their count r y mell ihe C btire ets lie f li b ° shown them that people had, as far as d w ith .m i s h o• t o e land went, been altogether u nprovid e .. ni a chu'", t he b i c :olti and surely it was now time that the '...00606r5th g; o f country should be employed in disseblmis t hat t be eePoo ings of education. It was only by tmecidel thousthel4,oo be extended, and by this mode only ~ Ile so ! de ot Protestantism be inculcated in Irelanuright t°4.el l o s. Government of this country Surely s ' i t OS ZOO ) # 1 church as well as another, and;tbe IrLs"upoopetaf that the numerical superiority 49 ',,,t asnhes s le gave them an undoubted right to it iiog o e f 00 9 should not weary the House bY en is r o uch ° he 0 1 ' 0 0 8 but when he saw the spirit in whie car ried _..„ne „, sition of the measure had been its °Fro] (/' - t air take the liberty of pointing ou t t ? thei r el st° bi cil circumstances that ought to Inc gliff t o the °ill y' fi lo ( ' occasion. He would not refer thent. st Acta ,;ettior of Elizabeth, and the subseqtr"childrellir le e eli the education of Roman Ca ou t artiolorbiot / 5 A bidden. He would not point c` ut c P . but l'., e st oefliei t Y attention the parochial Acts of A. llll c i the " he belie 1, mentioned them, because, thatdespit oo,ise,_,,og 00 inchs that had been presented to ~ ha d . sn,; 104 be . is inmost soul that a new feetooPpo w oe?. o bou_l o ter the country—a feeling of desire _Once4o,o_l;d C: If this grant passed at all, he _ co ot! .e bineePosic..; made permanent, for he could not and seisvitioe. s O A evil to religion than these annual, the opP e to ec r4 fo7, cussions. What was the nature. u;utdition,_4o.r.voopl was given to this measure ? -is. d the g eD le 42° r t od Right Hon. Baronet his Frien __, nr iociP s b u t ei Il de and the supporters of the volunteer/ r c 0u1d, 13 , ( , ) ase t s it. ~;% to him a singular anomaly. li nts to IP - I to o r s . the tone in which the oppe.o o upP a l or 0 0 C O lO , remarked upon the Member 7 t '' • Ar n e t ee, oi a ~,, must also enter his protest ag ' ain oth ° fi led ; 6 01 .9 from the Central Anti-MaYo°ruhty in it to s s ee; e o taming very questionable We ts from the o ts r e il. ) would read one or two e xtra: tat e 3 1 irvteiaraudl supporters.eon n c e e o w r itthw two which (T heth extractse they l ov _ u f ; a rio r p ci p o b s e i v a e roto t 0 3 .1, : iihs e : vi s c i : 0;1, ei : to‘r e '- ti e :l Now supposing that the A n n t t l e " rnerl i u n w ° ha i t A r b js o o Bo oi should allow that English theythis tHoosunspepolasaedthvaotteadnycornesgiiree Ile n e : n i : t a u e t i t ' h o t u o ' ! I/ B , o ° o o w o °F 3 i - o ,:e ia s ii. ci l _a i°ll : terwards induced them to co that tn _ al e() . 0 . i n o ppros" t ilonss. e tatt u ss or e i, opinions. He hoped , s o f OS t he i 00 0 10 of this question, the Merabere.„_.. tha n 4 . t he w 0 .n , suit their own conscience .I . *_ o o : po nertt s v g i e llf es P e °Pi s a tempted to be enforced bahlne_f r oe dis c h ob 0 1 1i e bet and whilst upon this bra_o_vintion which a t e ta et , enter his protest to the s i l ru f jo edt 'by, e { the griloe nents had unwarrantably o b eretnhge i vLeneg a is t i t a h t e ar trn a e g o e f iv t s b b : e o t i i r b ly :: i n ent te i°re :s ns .v bi:lts t-h p e co fi O3 °: s Such an assumption was w ineut or K 121 , 4 0 0' 0 0 0 0 grounds of positive engagee__ such nisi, c o of • // Let them, then, den"nelru;9, 0 ; 11 4 1 o u ncl iti° l3 6lr.) ta ut unite together in one gen the sel ° 7, - .. c (lle tit ' 30 ° ' o ° ' endeavour to ameliorate _ vicar ,. . s ayers, 01 .0 0 integral portion of the i ,!, .f thez, l l o w 01 1 1! be 1 4 of they analysed the princ *life slat ol otiel /tiu ea th at blir offensive to every sense . s . ..r had of 0 polef t he ve o be found. A Baptist mintio" the ee'redionshi,P„ne tad th s as soon trust his children the guar_iressictss O f th e an infuriate hyena , as_ t i sitnilar __pre it T ibi 0 be lish Bishops. Such en reweraber„.A sfor_ent. _ A tO employed, and let then:looo.h io°,',,T as hlishu i . n eer s iio o language of May n ooth, p teaant 14 D ent s t r icl a is t hO S worst enemies of the r ° its OPP ° re, ti rei l 0 gifvseytueodubrtYe4ctegnii.atebt6heseislir reroai:etit/incibtelroibira, nce. i' et first itn,ealenieti' Camden, w ben found/Irish sled.; himrsoetf strengthen n o r t gg n h tuse:mse politically tttnihetghaeeilesri they ado i a n d 0. p language of Lord s. „ was ae fis_ tits of °f' 8 1 10 4 0 l proposition in 1795,th tiu A rda nt elePlv 0101‘°' 'iliBl,iive itl' to harmonise the uisco , di d he _ ron tri cit h ...- t ie When using such languels,el. o f the u..ritte. !sopolisor tion of an institution woqooii doled eutot eetir st holielL - o t g r a ill accord it, of an instituti .00030, c, rotho of r the va st l ' f 9 0 1 ' 't O °C f ic ° creasing wants 0. ran t o , vi r s s i ._ e be te e i or did he mean a paltry g rant ? ve.,ch tniocsotootp,. ingly and with avowedool_oge" -00 la, t for t he eg sin ft" tended as a reigh t i s n e r to 00° 00 00 0 . 0 0, Christian education wee ove orgso oe Ireland?—he Shuttle A under what circumstances this question was brought be fore them, and by what means the measure had been ad vanced to its present stage. He would ask if the majo rity who voted for the second reading of the Bill, repre sented a majority of the country. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government had admitted that the feelings of the people of England and Scotland were most repugnant to this measure—far beyond what he had anticipated, and the result to which the Right llon. Baronet had come was, that in proportion to the strength of that opinion, it became his duty to increase his energies and exert the power in his hand, as the First Minister of the Crown, to carry out the melt _ sure. His Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home De partment carried his efforts still further, for he threw into the scale against the people, the name, power, weight, and popularity of his Sovereign. He was not there to enter into a controversy with the Right Hon. Baronet as to his authority as Home Secretary to make use of this power. He admitted that the Right Hon. Baronet had precedent for the course he had pursued, but the only authority that he (Mr. Bankes) remem bered as a precedent, was of the Right Hon. Baronet's own making. He remembered that, on a former occasion, the same course was resorted to by the same Right Honourable Gentleman—(Hear) — and the name of the Sovereign was then used also to turn the balance. It would be a great relief to him (Mr. Bankes) if he found that, by any misconception or mis representation, her Majesty had been induced to give her sanction to this measure. He could not look upon the question as already decided, for he trusted that though the House might not be entitled now to the ap pellation of a representative, they still remained a deli berative body. He believed that, in some important particulars, his Right Hon. Friends had been deceived. They had no idea of the repugnance that was felt by the people of this country and Scotland to this measure. He gave his Right Hon. Friend full credit for a desire to confer a boon on the people of Ireland, but he be lieved that they had been mistaken. The feeling against this measure was a general one ; and it was a mistake to suppose that it had been confined to the Dissenters of England and Scotland. It was notbecause the members of the Church of England had been quiescent that there fore they were to be considered as indifferent. His Right Hon. Friend had formed a very inadequate notion of the Established Church with respect to this measure. Let the Right Hon. Baronet look to a petition which had appeared in the newspaper of that morning, a petition to the Lord Bishop of Cashel, from the clergy of his diocese, against this Bill. The Earl of LINCOLN—How many signatures P Mr. BANKES—Oh, a good many. The Earl of LINCOLN—Not many. Sir H. W. BARRON—Signed by nine out of 168. Mr. BANKES continued—At any rate the petition was signed by a very respectable portion of the clergy of the diocese of Cashel and Waterford. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon had called them " fanatical insurgents ;" but that Hon. and Learned Gentleman's genius frequently outstripped his judgment and discretion. He (Mr. Bankes) fully con curred in the prayer of the petition to which he had re fereed, and he should support it in that House. He felt it as an honourable compliment to be entrusted with the petitions:of many of the Dissenters. Those Dissenters had no desire to destroy or disturb the Established Church. They were only actuated by a desire to pre vent the spread of a religious opinion, which they be lieved to be anti-scriptural. The Hon. Member for Sheffield had indeed attacked the Church Establishment, but he had found himself in a dilemma, and had shrunk from meeting the Hon. Member for Oxford at the time he proposed. The Hon. Member for Sheffield con sulted the heads of his own party, but they could give him no satisfactory advice, and he then, as it was said, consulted the Cabinet, who could give him no advice either ; and he had recourse to the Hon. Member for Montrose, who was, it seemed, the Nestor of that House, seeing that he was always consulted by Members who found themselves in difficulty.—(Laughter.) The ad vice of the Hon. Member for Montrose was the abandon trent of the motion; " For," said he, " if you do not abandon your motion, or postpone it, the second reading of the Bill will be lost." This was the way in which the Hon. Member for Sheffield got out of his difficulty, and that was the way in which the second reading of this Bill was smuggled through the House, If the feeling against the Maynooth Bill had been mistaken in England tied in Scotland, what must be considered of the ex pression of public opinion in Ireland? How had the messenger that had been sent there with the glorious tidings returned ? Had he come back bearing in his hand the olive branch of peace ? Had he re turned to tell the English nation that their Royal mistress could set her foot on the Irish shore in safety and in peace ? These questions he would leave to be answered as best the Ministry could. In reference to many of the petitions which had been presented by the Dissenters against the grant, he would admit there were many unsound and harsh expressions with regard to the Roman Catholic religion, but yet the authority for the use of these unusual expressions ema nated from no less a source than the statutes of the House itself. They were to be found on the records of the reign of King William 111., and as long as those words stood, the Dissenters ought not to have any odium attached to them or receive any blame for employing them. He did not believe that those petitions had been laid on the table with the intention of insulting or offend ing the Irish people ; and he regretted as deeply as aey man the manner in which they had been worded. He was induced to give every credit to the Ministry for the good will which they intended to offer to the Irish people by means of the Maynooth Bill ; but he felt satisfied that the majority of the Irish Protestants were greatly op posed to it, and the measure would not afford them the least satisfaction.—(Hear.) The discussion on the original Maynooth grant had been gradually lessening year after year, and something of a tacit agreement had been given to the privilege which had been so long en joyed; and for this annual income the Bill now before the House had been proposed as a substitute. He would propose that the amount be paid out of the funds of the Irish Church, and not out of the pockets of the people. The passing of the Bill would not put an end to the an tagonistic demands of the Protestants. The Govern ment had been placed in an awkward position, and he was satisfied that those members who had been induced to give their unwilling assent to the measure on its first introduction, if they unhappily continued to sup port it through its third reading, would for ever after regret the infelicitous pledge they had bound themselves to give in its favour. The Irish Members had acted altogether in a fair and straight-for ward manner on the question. They had not interfered in the slightest degree with its progress—they had waited patiently and in silence, and invariably hailed with joy the grant as the dawning of a new era for Ire land. Now that they had seen what the commencement was proposed to be, it was easily to be discriminated what the termination must be.—(Hear, hear.) The Dis senters had combined to oppose this grant with all the determination they were capable of, and with all the power they could muster, and they stood not alone in the field, for the Established Church, who were strong in arms, were allied with them against it. From these con siderations it was apparent that the Maynooth grant could not be regarded merely in the light of an amount of money, but it must be taken and considered as a blow struck against the spread of the Protestant and against the foundation of the constitution.—(Hear.) It was singular how little had been heard of the original establishment of the College of Maynooth, and there existed a great deal of ignorance as to the manner in which the question had been formerly entertained in the Irish House of Parliament. It had been discussed year after year in that House; and from the general results he could have expected more detailed reasons for the es tablishment of the college than were given in those de bates. He had recently discovered a condensed account of the proceedings of the Irish House of Commons when it existed on this matter. It was written by Dr. Duid man, an honourable man, whose statements could be de pended on, and were no doubt correct. lie published his statements a year subsequently to the proceedings of the session of the Irish Parliament, when a Bill had been introduced for the education of persons professing the Roman Catholic religion, and for power to possess ac cruing lands. It appeared that a clause had been introduced at the end of the Bill for power to give the trustees of Maynooth the sum of 6,0004 out of the public money. This Bill was passed through both Houses, and became est a bli s h e d as law. No Mem ber of either House considered it worth while to offer any opposition, as they did not suppose the clause formed an essential part of the Bill. The projectors of the scheme, seeing the success which had attended their endeavours, were determined not to let the Parliament off on such easy conditions, but soon afterwards pro the Queen. The motion was then put and carrie 1. MAYNOOTH. Sirß. INGLIS presented petitions from several places in England, Scotland, and Wales, against the grant to Maynooth, and from several Presbyteries in Scotland, which were signed on behalf of them by the moderators. Mr. BANKS presented petitions from divers places in Sornersetshire, Wiltshire, and various other places; against the grant. Lord BERNARD presented petitions from places in Ireland to a similar effect. Mr. PATTISON presented several petitions against the grant. Mr. SHAW, from Dublin and tether places to a like effect. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented petitions from several places in the north of England against the grant, one signed by 20,000 people, and he thought it would be right to state the prayer of this petition. The petitioners stated that they were opposed to all State grants, and especially to the present, because it would tend to the endowment of the Catholic priesthood. At the same time they expressed their strong dislike to the Established Church in Ireland, which had been sustained against the feelings of the people. Sir Thomas Spry, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Stuart Wortley, and Lord Castlereagh, presented petitions from various places in England and Ireland to a similar effect. Sir R. PEEL presented petitions from Limerick and other places in favour of the grant. Mr. HINDLEY presented a great number of petitions from various places in England against the grant. Sir 11. Halferd, Mr. Darby, Mr. Duncan, and Colonel Wood presented petitions against the grant. An Hoer. Mextuen. (whose name we could not learn) presented a petition from Menmouth, signed by 38 people, out of a population of 30,000, against the grant. Mr. PACKE presented petitions from Dissenting con gregations in several places to a similar effect. Sir T. FREMANTLE presented a petition from Tun bridge Wells and other places in favour of the grant. Mr. C. BRUCE presented a petition from Elgin and other places against the grant. ACADEMICAL EDUCATION (IRELAND). Lord J. RUSSELL—I wish to ask the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government what day he would name for the second reading of the Bill for Acade mical Education in Ireland ? Sir R. PEEL—I cannot exactly define the day upon which the second reading of that Bill will be introduced, but at the conclusion of the debate on the Maynooth question I will name the day. Mr. EWART said he had a notice on the paper in reference to this question, which was to this effect : On the third reading of the Maynooth College Bill, to move that, while it is expedient to open all the public educational establishments of Ireland to the Catholics, to reduce to its due dimensions the Irish Church, and to establish entire civil and religious equality between Great Britain and Ireland, it is not advisable to extend the principle of making any religious denomination endowed by and dependent on the State. In bringing forward this motion he begged to assure the Right Honourable Baronet opposite, and the Hon. Members on that side the House, that while he was in favour of the most liberal mad extended system of education to all denominations of Christians, he was opposed to any religious endowment by the State of any institution. And now, when this question was coming before that House for a final decision, he did think it but just to those out of doors, who were opposed to it, to have their opinions and feelings ex pressed. He had the honour of differing from the opi nions of the Hon. Member the representative of the University of Oxford upon this question, and also from the Right Honourable Gentleman the Recorder of Dublin and the Recorder of London. The standard they had raised bore a device far too exclusive for him. He hoped the Hon. Member for Oxford University would pardon him for this allusion ; but he felt compelled to say that though he differed from him on many points in reference to this question, he agreed with him only on the principle that it was not wise to endow religious establishments. He did not mean to say he was opposed to existing endowments, but he was opposed to their ex tension, whether that extension was to be made to May nooth or to any other institution, for he did think that all theological establishments should be left to themselves. He did not admire any Government interference with matters of religion, and the success which the Go vernment had met with on a former memorable occasion, when the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department introduced his Factory Bill, furnished an ample proof of the inutility of advocating mixed theological and political questions. He doubted, therefore, the wisdom of agitating questions which involved the subject of _religion, and this was the reason why he now differed from the Government on the question of an endowment to Maynooth. Such a course might have been in place some forty or fifty years ago, but there was a new spirit abroad now. He believed that a purer principle actuated the people than the principle of endowments—he meant the volun tary principle. The voluntary principle manifested its truth to the minds of the people of this country, and it now occupied the place which the principle of endow ments did at a former period. This fact was proved by what had taken place in two of the Established Churches of this country. It was owing to the increase of the voluntary principle, that the Free Church in Scotland had separated itself from the parent establish ment; nor was it less owing to the insinuation of voluntary principleLinto England, that Tractariauism had diffused itself in Oxford, and extended its influence over thecountry. A change had come over the spirit of the country, which called on that House to legislate in conformity with it, but he was told that this system was not a sys tern of endowment, but simply an act of restitution. He would like to know what in this case was meant by the phrase " act of restitution." Was the Church of Ireland asked to restore to the Ca tholic Church what she had taken from her ? No. This was tobe exacted from the people of this country — it was to be taken out of the Consolidated Fund. He should not oppose any principle of restitution, but this was not so. He thought that, if they took from the superfluities of the Irish Church it would be well, but instead of doing so, they deducted this something from th e necess i t i es o f the English people. It was an anomaly to call on the people of this country to contribute from their hard-earned labour to the ex tension of religion, when that Church, which was now almost the mockery, as it had long been deemed the disgrace of this country, possessed so much wealth. That was the course which he, for one, would have pre ferred ; and he begged to ask Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite what course they intended to pursue ? He asked, did they mean to make their stand upon this Bill, or to extend the principle so far as the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy?—(Hear, hear.) He believed that they would give dissatisfaction to the Pro testant portion of the United Kingdom, and that they would at the same time give no satisfaction to the Roman Catholics.--(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for London had said that he wee prepared to carry out the genuine principle of endowment, and to give salaries to the Catholic clergy out of the Consolidated Fund. The Hon. and Learned Member for Edinburgh echoed the sentiment.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department thought that he also was in favour of the endowment of the priests. But the Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the Government maintained a prudent silence on the sub ject.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the spirit of endowment had passed away, and that a purer spirit—that of the reformation and of primitive Christianity had taken its place.—(Hear, hear.) He vvas willing to aid in measures of the largest liberality to Ireland, to compensate for past oppressions. But he did not think this measure was calculated to do so, and therefore, not wishing to prolong the debate, he concluded by moving according to notice. Mr. MARSLAND seconded the motion. He fully BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. the The at t eSn? SOLICITOR-GENERAL C o l fa'errttahiedoHuGgotraoEhfti uant N hstsoet E ef R to A a L m b a e t g t g er ed of lea im ve po t r o ta c n a e l e l he Meuse. Guegttlhoentdesaesie: :bout. et:uda; T el rddahi Bench Gossett—Howard corna o ths:h u otde s i nhn e ei nni% recol lectionNasvom recentitunhelgdde a o f ff actione c recision t i ncoursego f the iunderstand privilegesdotev been taken into custody on the warrant of the Speaker, issued by order of the House. s s c t s ii o r n s. sid l e l r a e n d sar n d, ece th ss e ar p y rin t t h er a s t conse quence o o f f the proceedings l a l s o t.i u t e h , we ams i that ne S to t°e t k h d e ale llo a u g s a e i Howard, who conducted those proceedings as the attorney of Stockdale, should attend at the bar to be examined. Howard had notice to that effect, but he di I not attend or pay any respect to the notice. In consequence of that contempt an order was made by the House that he should be brought up in custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms, and the Speaker's warrant was issued accordinglyHe was taken into custody upon that warrant, and subsequently he brought an action against the Assistant -Sergeant and others of the officers for excess m the execution of the warrant. The sole complaint against the officers was, that they bad been guilty of excess ; and upon that complaint the House came to the decision that the officers be per mitted to appear and plead to the action. They pleaded accordingly ; the case came on for trial in the Court of Queen's Bench, merely on the general issue of the de nial of the fact. The jury were of opinion that the officers had been guilty of excess, and found a verdict against them for 1001 That the 1001. and the costs were paid by the House. In the year 1843, Mr. Howard com menced the action in question against the sergeant, and communication of the fact was made by the Sergeant-at- Arms to the House. His (the Solicitor-General) Honourable and Learned Friend the Attorney-General moved that the notice which had been given should be printed, and on the following day he proposed to the House that the Sergeant-at-Arms should be at liberty to plead to the action. That proposal gave rise to a con siderable debate. That debate was adjourned, and ulti mately the House came to the resolution that Sir W. Gos sett have leave to appear and defend the action brought against him by Mr. T. B. Howard for trespass. After that, the House agreed to another resolution, that Wil liam Bellamy have leave to defen d the action brought against him, and that the Attorney-General be directed to defend Sir William :Gossett and William Bellamy. Upon that authority several pleas syere put on the record in the action of Howard a emstGessett; and, stripping those pleas of their technicalities, the effect was, that the imprisonment which had been com plained of was to be justified b y the authority of the a S n p d e a o k n e r that's demurrer In t a h n o s argument r p g l u e m a s e t n h t e r t e o was ok p. a l a d c e e m i u n r demurrer, Court of Queen's Bench , i n the month of November last. The Judges appeared to have entertained very considerable doubt on the subject, for they took time to consider their opinion, and did not deliver their judgment until Thursday last. When the y p ronounced judgment, the majority of the Judges were of opinion that the pleas constituted no sufficient j▪ ustification of the complaint contained in the plaintiff's declaration. In that judgment, however, Mr. Justice Williams dif fered from the majority of the Judges. But:of course it would be premature to discuss that part of the subject further until the whole of the proceedings were before dtheeciHainonused.idHnonwtevienr, any it wo uld be right of him to say that the Judges, one and all , had stated that their way refer to any of the privileges of this House, but to the fact . of the Sergeant-at-Arms having exceeded the authority vested in him by the House.—(Hear, hear.) Now he would suggest that before the House took any proceedings in reference to this subject, they should have before them all the proceedings in reference to the trial, and therefore he would move that copies of the record and of the short-hand wri▪ ters' n o t es should be laid before it. It would be necessary that the House should proceed upon the matter as speedily as possible, in order to come to a determinati▪ on. But in the mean time he would state what the steps were which the plaintiff could take. The plaintiff was now at liberty to enter what was technically called an interlocutory judgment, and then pro.