The Sun. — London, England, 1850-06-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE' OF LORDS, June 14. Their lordships met at Five o'clock. PUBLIC-HOUSES (SCOTLAND) BILL, The Public-houses (Scotland) Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed, on the motion of Lord KINNAIRD. CIIANCERY COURT OF APPEAL BILL. Lord BROUGHAM said that this 8111, which stood for second reading, was not a new Bill, for it was intro duced as long ago as last session, and had been lying in abeyance ever since for the consideration of their Lordships and the public. It dealt with a dry subject, but when their Lordships remembered the suf ferings which they and their families and titles suffered from the injuries existing in the Court of Chancery, they would .at once see the importance of a measure which had for its object the removal of some of those evils. Now the complaint that the Great Seal was dilatory in its proceedings was not a new complaint, it was as old as the days of Lord Bacon and Lord Coke. In the seventeenth century, it was admitted by those two eminent and learned judges that the work done by the Lord Chancellor was greater than that done by any two other judges in Chancery, and he believed the office was still as much, if not more, overburdened. "Let him s just recapitulate some of the duties of the L')rd Chancellor. For ten months in the year he had to sit in the Court of Chan cery, besides presiding in their Lordships' [louse, while exercising its appellate jurisdiction and sitting as the Speaker, while it was part of the duty of the Chan cellor to advise . ilie Cabinet and attend to all matters connected with the criminal jurisprudence of the country. That was enough to show that the office was still overburdened with work. The evils which resulted from this overburdening were too well known to need recapitulation, but the difficulties in the way of removing these evils were so great that he bardly knew how to deal with them. The first remedy which naturally suggested itself was the separation of the judicial from the political functions of Chancellor, but then arose the difficulty of how to create a Court of Appeal similar to that which now existed in the High Court of Chancery. During the tour years that he. sat : in the Court of Chancery, there were only twelve original suits origi nated in that Court—all the rest were appeals from the court below. Considering the extent of these duties, it I was not surprising that arrears should grow up in the Court of Chancery. In fact the number at'one time was perfectly frightful, but by great industry and hard work he (Lord Brougham) was enabled. in the course of about ten mouths, to clear off about 147 cases. Such exertions no man would make a second time, and, perhaps, no se cond man would undertake such duties, and the result was that in the course of a few years the arrears must again accumulate. Something, then, ought to be done for the relief of the individual holding the office of Lord Chancellor. And now arose the difficulties, which he would very shortly state. The first thing to be con sidered was the Court of Chancery. It was said tha• it would be an easy arrangement to separate the equitable jurisdiction of the Lord Chancellor from his appellate and judicial functions. It was said, " You have only to ap point chief judges in equity, and leave all the other pre rogatives and functions of the great seal vested in the great minister of justice." He admitted there was much plausibility in that scheme, but he would state why he could net give his assent to it. The first thing to be suggested was a chief judge in equity, who ought to be a Chancellor, minus a Court of Chancery. But there must be an appeal in the Court of Chancery from the Master of the Rolls, the Vice-Chancellor of England, and the other two Vice-Chancellors. for it would be a perfect denial of justice to send appeals to the appellate jurisdiction of the House of Lords, on account of the enormous expense of such a course of proceeding. Some sort of an appeal there must therefore be in the Court of Chancery. At present the appeal was from the inferior judges to the Lord Chancellor ; and no difficulty arose, because the Lord Chancellor. being at the head of the law—being the highest officer of the law—being at the head of the Judges, and a person of the greatest eminence in the profession—his very station, besides his personal quali fication, rendered him a suitable person to whom to ap peal. 'But, supposing the new Chief Judge in equity to be only another Vice-Chancellor, with a higher name and a higher salary, this difficulty would arise—that his hearing an appeal would amount to a second trial of the same cause by nearly the same person. An immense portion of the business of the Court of Chancery con sisted of appeals. He bad certainly heard a great number of original motions, but ninety-nine parts out of one hundred of the great mass of business consisted of appeal causes and appeal motions ; and, as was pro phesied by Mr. Canning and Mr. &madly, in 1812, the court had become a court of appeal. The Lord Chancellor, except in bankruptcy and lunacy and certain official motions, was a judge of appellate jurisdiction in the Conn of Chancery. And what eas the conse quence? There was sufficient business to keep that ap peal court sitting all the year round. The expedient of keeping the great seal in commission, which some per sons thought so excellent, would rob some of the courts of their judges, and render the Chancery judges com missioners, and not the Lord Chancellor .himself. He had considered this difficulty along with Lord Lynd hurst, and it certainly appeared very great, but, perhaps, not insuperable, because on further investigation it was possible that new mi n d s m i g h t o ff er fresh suggestions. He had the fullest confiisnce in the present Vice-Chan• cellor and the other judges, but would not trust them unless properly watched, and checked, and controlled. Their decisions must be open to appeal and review— not in the House of Lords, on account of the ex pense and del iy which would be occasioned. But there were also constitutional ot.jec:ions to such a course of proceeding. These difficulties, perhaps, might be got over; but he now came to one much greiver, which had induced him to postpone further proceedings on the Bill. It was important to the due administration of jus t ce that there should be a union of great judicial honour with the greatest powers of practitioner:. These advan tages should be combined in order to give the country that greatest of all blessings, a pure, satisfactory, and able administration of justice. If they did anything that tended to lower the dignity of those who were called upon to fill this high office—if they did anything that should lower the dignity or obscure the splendour of the situation—if they took away from the bar that prize which all now looked up to, which quickened and in vigorated every man who put on the pleader's robe— which quickened and invigorated the highest, down to the obscure and plodding, though meritorious special pleader and equity draftsman; if they took away this stimulus to exertion—this soother of those wh o might labour under temporary disappointment and privations —it they made the bar feel they no longer belonged to a body of which the Lord Chancellor was the illustriouahead = if they felt they no longer belonged to a btdy so adorned, fortified, and exalted, it was • perfectly certain the effect would be that we should have a lower class of men tte practitioners at the bar, and we should lower in proportion that body out of which the judges themselves must be chosen. It was a vain and empty error to talk of the uselessness of the office and its barren splendour. Its utility, he main tiined, was a fact—a visible fact—of daily observation and e xperience, and daily felt by all lawyers and judges. —(Hear, hear.) Wishing to retain all the honours, im portance, 'and splendour of the office, at the same time he desireddo have security that an unfit man should not be put in that high place. The subject had been carefully considered by Lord Lyndhurst and others, and the case was found to be one which presented grave difficulties. No office was more important than that of the Lord Chancellor, and every one who knew the Constitution was aware that, as far as the House of Lords was. concerned, its judicial attributes were those which gave it the greatest weight and importance. MI this were' changed it would become a useless blot in the Constitution, because it would be a totally diffe rent body from that over which he once had the honour to preside, and in which he had the supreme honour of holding a seat. The difficulties were so great with which th e quest i on was surrounded, the he dared not ask their Lordships to proceed with th e meas ure which be had first introduced in 1833. He had hopes, however, of being able to overcome the difficulties rela• ting to the appellate jurisdiction of the House of Lord.. v a i n s d ed lie to th m o e n e g t,a i short time some plan- m i g ht be objections.de- With reference to the great seal b e i ng in n e! :emission he did not think there was any very gr eat grievance in that state of things, as some had ignorantly asserted, with a one-sidedness and obliquity of vision that •Wfla really marvellous. The gr eat seal had been in c ommission in 1835 for e i g h t mon ths, without any public injury; since then so o th V a ic i e n - Chance ll ere a ddition a l h a d been appointed, fact no evil, as far as the public ifiterests were concerned, need need be apprehended in conseq u „ en of the great seal being held in commission. What he would suggest was, that their Lordships sh o u ld take th e long vacation to cousider the whole question. He recommended them te enter on the inquiry with unprejudiced minds, and with a strong desire to elicit truth, and to come to a correct conclusion. Let them do all this in the calm of t h e long vacation. when the voice of party wa s s till, w h en the hum of the Commons was no more heard.—(Laugh ter.) lie assured their Lordships he meant to be flatter ing and complimentary to thet bonoureble assembly by comparing them to so industrious and useful a body as the bees—to a body where there was as feet drones and as little a sprinkling of wasps as possible.—( Laughter.) Let them take time to reflect and deliberate, and mature their plans, without supposing that every suggestion was exhausted, or that they knew by intuition what others felled to know by experience and long practice. Let their Lordships do this in the calm of the long vaca tion, and then they could approach the question with a fair chance of coming to some proper determination on it. He greatly rejoiced that the question had been given up to his Noble Friend at the head of the Government. He, however, recommended caution and care, and that no plan should be hastily introduced, because there would be a difficulty in withdrawing it when once intro duced. Whatever they did he should strongly counsel Government not to appoint two men to the new offices unless theirchoice wits copcurred in by the voice of the profession and the public. Theie was one other point to which he wished to dr aw attention. It related to Scotch cases br oug ht b e f ore th e H ouse, which were to be decided without the advantage of the aid of Scotch lawyers.`•• He was of opinion that this w as an evil that ought not to continue, and as no vested interests were to be interfered with, he recommended the House to take steps to p rov id e a remedy for it. The Nobleand L Learned Lord concluded by moving the discharge ofthe order. Order discharged accordingly. DISTRESS FOR RENT (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of the Ear) of LUCAN the House went into Committee on the Distress for Rent (Ireland) Bill. The Earl of CARLISLE suggested that as there were two Bills in the House of Commons, and one in the House of Lords, which would have the effect of re medying the grievance, the Noble Lord should suspend his measure until they could be all considered together THE SUN, by the House, otherwise he should feel bound to op p DSO it. phsth apofeed.m N words froth the Earl of LUC A, was the Bill After ENCUMBERED motionf ESTATESMa r quis i ( s l R h EN LA \v E s D r ) m B BILL. n the e s lI ( o I u r s e e l an w de 3tßiriiitlo. The Eerl of CARLISLE ha d no objection .to the C om mittee on the Encumbe red Es principle of the Bill; but he o b j ected to the amendments to be proposed in it. The Marquis of WESTM EATH said the reason he was so anxious to press the Bill was, that the Court was con fi sc ating the entire property of the be passed through The Earl of CARLISLE suggested country. that the Bill could Committee pro forma, and the amend ments could be discussed at a future stag...ommittee; the stage. U The Bill was then passed throu g h t hird reading and the amend ments to be taken on Tues- I GREY moved the order of the day for t he Com mitteeT d AS TRALIAN COLONIES GOVERNMENT BILL. Ear on the Australian Colonies Government B ill, and the House went into Committee thereon accordingly. Clauses 26 to 29 inclusive were adopted. On clause 30, conferring power to establish a general assembly for the Australian colonies being proposed, Lord STANLEY said the Noble Earl (Earl Grey) had given no reason that he (Lord Stanley) knew for establishing the system of government proposed to be introduced to the colonies. It might be true that in regard to those various colonies there might be several subjects, as in the case of the North American colonies, of common interests, in which the colonists themselves might, have an opportunity of knowing and understanding what was best for their interests; but no such case had been . made out by the Noble Earl, wherein some colonies should overrule others. They were now legislating, they should recollect, for colonies having separate interests, and they should take care, by no act of theirs, to give one body of the colonists a power of over-riding the acts of others. He thought the course of proceeding in this way was very contradictory. For example, they first proposed, by an order in council, to delegate to the colonies a power of local legislation, and then, by another order iu council, they proposed to give to the legislative council, or federal asseaehly, a power over the acts of the colonial legislatures. The Noble Lard then proceeded to analyse the constituent power of the several colonies, end having protested against the power proposed by the Bill to be delegated to the supreme legislative body, concluded by moving, as an amendment, the omission of the 30th clause add the following clauses to 34 inclusive. Marl GREY trusted their Lordships would not adopt the amendment proposed by the Noble Lord. Those clauses were proposed under the condition that there were common interests in several of the colonies. For instance, an Act had recently come home from New South Wales, proposing to establish an uniform rate of postage (2d.) for the whole colony. In the North Ame rican colonies there was a difficulty. In the Australian colonies the subject was one of very great interest. Again, in New South Wales, there was an Act under consideration for establishing steam navigation. In the West Indies a general assembly had been established, and they were anxious to re-establish a corresponding interest between one state and another. There was ano ther point of great importance in the settlement of the Australian colonies question,—namely, tbeesteblisbment of a court of apps al, so as to avoid the trouble and delay of an application to this country. Now a single colony could ' not have a court of appeal. He had not the least objection to it; on the contrary, he had proposed an amendment, the effect of which should be to enable any legislature applying to be included in the arrangement proposed by the Bill to be included only flir certain purposes. The Noble Lord had objected to the ' wide authority to be given to her Majesty's Govern meat-by the provisions of the measure, especially with regard to the details of the elections, but he did not think his objection was founded on justice, and certainly if the Noble Lord succeeded to the Colonial-office, he (Earl Grey) should never dream of offering opposition to their exercise by him. Having stated other reasons in support of the measure, be proceeded to contend that it was by no means of the unprecedented character at tempted to be shown, and in support of his argument he quoted from the Autobiography of Franklin, to show that a congress of commissioners, as similar as the altered circumstances of the times'and the country wonld permit, had taken place in the United States long be fore the American war, in the year 054.—(11ear.) This circumstance confirmed, he thought, she opinion, that the measure rested upon some strong foundation. Unless they adopted some such measure as the present, doubts and difficulties and questions would continually arise, which would create greater doubts and difficulties in their settlement than those now apprehended. Lord W H ARNCiAFFE generally supported the Bill, but resommended a postpouement of the clause objected to by L rd Stanley. Earl GRANVILLE said he approved of the general tenour of the measure, and he had not gathered from either of the Noble Lords who had spoken against those four clauses that something of what they proposed to enact was- not desirable. The Noble Earl who had charge of the Bill had stated that those colonies who refused to send delegates to the proposed assembly could not be compelled by the measure to do so; and he had also stated that he would introduce a clause, on a former stage of the measure, to leave it optional to join with the other colonies in this assembly, but on what particular subjects or interests they should feel themselves most in terested. That he considered a fair proposal, and one which would prove most beneficial, and therefoi e he must oppose the amendment. The Earl of HARROWBY said if it was the case that those clauses only proposed to give those colonies an opportunity of conterrinr, together on what was best for their mutual interests, ho coul I nit oppose the whole of them, but ho would alter them so as to limit them simply to electing commissioners for that purpose, and not for controlling the legislature of those colonies. Earl GREY agreed that the proposed meeting of as semblies would be more a meeting of commissioners than anything else, but it would be unfair not to gise New South Wales, which had three times the population of Victoria, a preponderance over the latter in such assem bly, and, therefore, having those commissioners elected according to the population of the different colonies was desirable. Lord KINNAIRD said, he firmly believed that the first thing those delegates would do on meeting would be to alter the constitution proposed by this measure in re spect of one chamber, and that not to elect an additional one, but to get rid of the nominees. The danger. there fore, of passing the clause was plain, for by doing so they gave virtually over the control of the Secretary of State in this country respecting those colonies to the caprice of those delegates. He had some tear of demo cracy becoming the prevalent doctrine in those colonies, and he thought the passing of those clauses would be the means of giving an impetus to the establishment of that principle. He was sorry to have to differ from the Noble Earl at the head of the Colonial-office; but so sure was he that those clauses would be productive of evil that he was compelled to do so. • Lord LYTTELTON supported the amendment. He contended that the colonies who refused to send a deputy to this league would be placed in a most invidious position. T he House divided, when there appeared— For the clause... • .• ... 23 Against it •••• • 22 Majority for the clant:e l. Earl GREY gave notice, that upon the • report being brought up he should move the addition of a clause to provide that a colony sending delegates to the general assembly might except certain local questions from the jurisdiction of that assembly. Lord STANLEY said the effect of such a clause as this would be to send delegates from the different colo nies with power to vote upon some questions and with out power to vote upon others, and that- there would thus arise perpetual doubt as to what questions they would have power to vote upon. On the 32i clause, empowering the general assembly to make certain laws, Lord STANLEY said that one of the objects of this clause was to give the general assembly power to enact laws for the formation of roads, canals, or railways, tra versing any two or more of the colonies. Now would tee Noble Earl say that in the event of establishing a. railroad between Victoria and New South Wales, for in glace, the colonies of Van Diemen's Land and Western Australia should contribute towards the expense of its construction in proportion to the revenues of each co lony? In that case the contribution of Victoria would be very small, whilst that of Van Diemen'sLand, which would have no interest in the work, would be very large indeed. Surely the Noble Earl- would not give power to the general assembly to tax the whole of the colonies for a purpose of that sort. Earl GREY—The clause gave power to the general assembly to tax the colonies for purposes of common interest. Lord STANLEY—They were also to have power to enact laws for the erection of beacons and lighthouses, %nd to raise the sums which might be necessary by an !3 0 n:l per- t e n t age on t h e revenues of all the colonies. what benefit wou ld t h at b e to the colony of supposing a lighthou se were erecte d at the port o f Sydney, o f We stern Austr a li a ? Why the noble Earl might as r well tax th e people of England fo r th e erection and way at Constantinopl e . Y e t by the clause p ower maintenan ce of a or given to the General A ssem bly to tax t whole th e colonies—riot proportion theymight each be supp ose d t o d So er t i h v e e; be he bu L t e i ß n t proporti on ch to the full extent of their re- GREY did not understand • the cla use ien that „ • o ly n v e . Earinues light. As he read it, it ga the Gener al As p o wer to make appropriation of money on l y for common purposes. Lord STANLEY—The words of the clause we re —'• That the said General As sembly of Australia should have power to make and enact such laws as might be required for the formation of roads, canals or railways traversing any two or more of the colonies, for the erection and mainte nance of beacons and lighthouses on the coasts of such c olonies, and for the a p pro p riation to any of the objects or purposes for which such assem blyt should legislate of su ch sums as mig ht sums by angh be necessary for the same, and for the raising of s uch equal per-tentage on the revenues o• all such colonies." Lord WHARNCLIFFE was of opinion tha t the bl machinery of the Bill would ma ke the assembly y w ou ld a m ere congress of commissioners, whose proceedings mate the greatest possible confusion. Earl GREY—It was hardly possible in cr eating ally prevent all abuse of authority; but the very d authority like this to devise words which would effc.etauent of creating a representative assembly with the whole community. He admitted that i t was necessary that some proviso should be introduce d was to eal . f t air a ly s y which the colonies not equally benefited by any pu blic work should not be called on to be equal contributors. After a short conversation the clause was agreed to. Clauses 33 and 34 were agreed to. On clause 35, Elul °ItEICA said, in accordituce with what he bad stated the other evening, he should propose an alteration in the clause, to modify the power of the local assem blies with reference to the nominee members of the le gislative assemblies. Lord STANLEY gave the Noble Earl notice that the question which had b::‘en decided thqt night by a single vote would be again raised on the bringing up of flak report. By consenting to this clause, as now amended, he did not hold himself precluded from raising a discus sion on it at a future stage. He should have (line so now were it not that he believed it would be more conve nient to their Lordships that he should take another opportunity for the discussion. The clause was then agreed to, as were the remaining clauses, and th. House resumed. The Estates Leasing (Ireland) Bill then wont through Committee. The Judgments (Ireland) Bill passed through Com mittee. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 14. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. The Sheriffs of London appeared at the bar and pre sented a petition agreed to by the Lord Mayor, Alder men, and Common Council of the city of London, in Common Council assembled, praying that the Interments Bill may not pass into a law as it now stands. THIRD READINGS. _ The following Bills were read a third tim© and .aised:— British Electric Telegraph Company. South Wales Railway (Alterations of Works). BILSTON IMPROVEMENT, MARKET, WATER WORKS, AND CEMETERY BILL. Upon the motion for reconsidering this Bill, Mr. THORNELY moved the insertion of a clause. Mr. WILSON PATTEN said the clause provided that the cemetery shoaid not be opened within 300 yards of any house of 50/. value. Now, if it was necessary to protect houses of 50i value it was of equal importance to protect houses of less value, and he should, therefore, object to the diause,. unless some explanation could be given to justify its introduction. Mr. THORNELY had been told that the standing orders of the House of Lords required its insertion. Their Lordships would not pass the Bill without it. Mr. W. PATTEN said the sooner, then, that order was rescinded the better. Mr. THORNELY observed that smaller buildings were protected by the General Cemeteries Act. Mr. MACKENZIE announced his intention to oppose the clause, and ultimately it was withdrawn. The Bill was then ordered to be engrossed. SECOND READING. The Sir Peter Hesketh Fleetwood's Estate Bill was r€ al a second time and ordered to be Ammitted. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented against Sunday labour in the Post-office. Mr. C. LUSHINGTON presentei a potition from the body known as the Society of Friends, approving of the principle of the Interments Bill, but suggesting certain amendments, and praying to be exempted from certain of its proviNions. Mr. MUNTZ presented a petition from Christ Church, Birmingham. against the. Savings Banks 13i11. Lord HOTLIAIt presenti-&-a petition from the East Riding against the admission of Jews into Parliament. Captain FORDYCE presented a petition from Aber been against any alteration in the parochial system of education in Scotland. Mr. OSWALD presented a petition from Glargow against tiro Marriage Bill. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY presented a petition from a body of factory workers in favour of a Ten Hours Bill. Sir G. S TRICKLAND presented a similar petition from Preston. Mr, WILLIAMS presented a petition from Flintshire praying the House to take measures to prevent the/ ap pointment of any person to any ecclesiastical office in Wales who was not conversant with the Welsh lang,uage. Mr. MILES presented a petition from Somersetshire against the admission of Jews into Parliament Mr. HAMILTON presinted a petition from the Irish Church Building Society against national education in Ireland. Mr. WYLD presented a petition from Chelsea, sug gesting alterations in the Interments Bill. Colonel L. WATKINS presented petitions against Post-office labour on the Sabbath-day, from the parish end town of Lampeter. the Welsh Calvinistic chapel in Llangarthe. from Tregarron and Llauilar, all in the county of Cardigan, must numerously and respectably signed. Mr. ADDERLEY presented a petition from the House of Assembly of Prince Edward's Island praying that the House would protect their rights as British subjects. Mr. MACKINNON presented petitions from Lam beth and Southwark in favour of the Marriage Bill. THE CENSUS. Mr. MACGREGOR gave notice that, at a subsequent stage of the Census Bill, he would move the insertion of a clause in the form of a schedule, to contain the descrip tion of the trade or occupation of each person in Great Britain, and certain agricultural statistics. SOCIETY OF FRIENDS. Mr. C. LUSHINGTON said, with reference to the petition he had presented thit evening, from:the Society of Friends, protesting against their being compelled to colltct the rate for ecclesiastical purposes under the Metropolitan Interments Bill, he gave notice that on the proper occasion he should move a clause for exempting the members of the Society of Friends from the perform ance of that duty when acting as overseers. VENTILATION OF MINES. Mr. WYLD rose to ask the Right. Lion. the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if, as the reports of Messrs. Blakwell and Phillips are now presented, it was his intention to introduce any measure for the better ventilation and inspection of mines and collieries. Sir G. GREY said a Bill had been prepared on the subject, and he hoped to lay it before Parliament almoat immediately. BOARD OF HEALTH. In reply to Mr. B. OSBORNE, Sir GEORGE GREY said he would shortly lay he , fore the /louse the evidence on which the Board of Health founded their report. RATING OF STOCK IN TRADE. Sir R. INGLIS naked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether at this period of the session it was his intention to proceed further with the Bill now before the House, providing for the rating of stock in trade? Sir G. GREY said that there was but little prospec of proceeding with the Bill this session. BOUNDARY COMMISSIONERS (IRELAND). Mr. CLEMENTS wished to know the reason why the report of the Boundary Commissioner,' of Ireland hal been delayed so long, and if any alteration had been made in the report? _ Sir G. GREY said that this was a report which had to pass through the hands of the Government, and he was not aware that any alteration had bean made in the report._ _ _ THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. HUME wished to put a question, which he had put last night, to which he had not received an answer, and that was, what was the meaning of those external illuminations, with which Hon. Members had been sur rounded last night in the new House. As Mr. Greene was not in the House no answer was returned to the question. RAILWAY ABANDONMENT BILL. Sir JAMES GRAHAM wished to ask the Attorney- General if the third reading of the Railway Abandon. ment Bill would be proceeded with to-night. Mr. LABOUCHERE said he knew it was the in ►ention of his Learned Friend not to proceed with the Bill to-night. LORD-LIEUTENANT OF IRELAND ABOLITION BILL. In answer to a qtlestion from Sir R. A. INGLIS, Sir G. GREY said, the abolition of the Lord-Lieute nancy Bill would be the first order of the day on Monday night. ENFRANCHISEMENT OF COPYHOLDS. In reply to Mr: AGLIONBY, Mr. MULLINGS said that it was not his intention to brine in his Bill this session for the enfranchisement of copyholds. I'IIANSPORTATION OF MR. SMITH O'BRIEN. Sir LUCIUS O'BRIEN begged that the "1 - 16u,e would bear with him fur a short time while he brought before it the case of% his brother, Mr. Smith O'Brien.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") His ex cuse for doing so was that the treatment of his brother had been the subject of commentin the public prints.— (Hear.) Other Members of the sister island had been asked to introduce the subject, and perhaps many in the House thought it would have been better that they should have done so. lie, however, thought it was his duty to undertake the ta sk, 49 he was better informed as to the facts of the case. From a letter which 'he had received from Van Diemen's Land, dated the 31st of January last, he found that his brother had for three weeks previously been in such a bad state of health that his lire was despaired of. It appeared that when he arrived there he refused to take a ticket of leave, although his companions availed themselves of the privilege, and the cons' quence was that ha was placed on a small island known as the island of Maria. He was there treated with the greatest kindness by the inhabitants, but shortly atter his arrival orders came that no one should be allowed to hold conversation with him except his religious instructor. The habitation in which he had to take up his abode was badly situated, being ex posed io the turbulence of the wind and the powerful rays of the sun, so thet he could only take exercise for an hour in the evening. Such being his position his health' rapidly declined, and the medical inspector was compelled to request the authorities to adopt some change in respect to his treatment.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Sir L. O'Brien) knew very well that, if he was to go to Van Diemen's Land, he should not be able to convince his brother that he was in the wrong. Then the question arose, would the Government pur sue a Person to death? If a man was obstinate, would they Persevere in a treatment of him that would bring him to his grave ?—(Murmurs). His brother thought he was in the right. He (Sir L. O'Brien) thought differently, and his brother never received the leastencouragement from him.—(Hear, hear.) But would the Gimerntnent pursue that man to an extremity which would cause the loss of his life? Under these circumstances, he (Sir L. O'Brien), thought this was a moment when the House should consider whether the treatment which he had described should be continued.—(Hear, hear.) Sir G. GREY said every Member in the House would sympathise with the lion. 'Member (Sir L. O'Brien), on this occasion. Had the Hon. Member apprised him (Sir G. Grey) of his intention to bring this matter before the House, he should have had an opportunity of consulting the dispatches on the subject, and been the better able to throw some light on the matter. The Hon. Member had truly stated that the Government wished to act with as much indulgence in this case as was consistent with their public duty; and they issued instructions to the Governor of Vat, Diemen's Land, on the arrival of the Hon. Gentleman's relative and three other pawns, to offer them _tickets of leave, LONDON, rrovided they would not avail themselve3 of that indul gence to leave the island. That was thankfully accepted by three of the convicts. but it was positively refused by the relative of the i lon. Gentleman. The Governor, act ing in conformity with instructions which he had received, placNi. the Hun. Gentleman's relative on a part of the island appropriated to the reception of convicts, but assigned him separate apartments. He was of course Oen) as a convict, not thinking that a ticket of leave was worth acceptance, he (Sir G. Grey) regretted to say; but he had had communication both with the bishep with the chaplain, and other persons, and every indulgence bad been shown him, consistent with the painful duty which the Governor had to discharge.—(Dear, hear.) And he (Sir George Grey) thought if any complaint was to be brought against the Governor, it was for showing more indulgence in this case than be was entitled to show.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to a relaxation as to his treatment, he (Sir G. Grey) only knew it from a communication which he had received trom the Hon. Member; but he (Sir G. Grey) had no doubt that if the health of the Hen. Memb..r relative was likely to be endangered, that such relaxa Lion would take place as was aceordel in similar cases. Mr. GRATTAN said this unfortunate gentleman was a countryman of his ; and he (Mr. Grattan) knew of no law for imposing torture on a mars in this country. This was a question of humanity, and he hoped the Govern men; would treat it as such. This unfoit , ina . e gentle man had not been allowed to buy tea, or coffee, or cloth ing, and his present treatment wus worthy the country whcee Priwy Council relused to allow Bonaparte the luxury of a pianoforte when incarcerated a' St. Helena. THE UNIVERSITIES COMMISSION. Mr. HEADLAM wished t o as k t h e light lion. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford whether it was his intention to bring befor e the house hesubject 0, Commission f ur the Univer st iti eson the of h a d t i± e p u rL op debate?o- d Mr. GLADgTONE said that the debate was adjourned on the motion of the Member for Plymouth, and he was the person most proper to apply to on the subject. FACTORIES -BILL. The House then proceeded to consider the amendments to this Bill. Lord J. MANNERS presented petitions from several places in Lancashire and Cheshire praying the House to pass this Bill in its integrity. Sir G. GREY then proposed, as an additional clau'e, after section 5, to the effect, that every young person, and every female above the age of 18 years, who shall be employed in any factory, or shall be allowed to remain in any roam wher e any manu f actur i ng process i s then carried on ifs any'itetory during any part of the times which by the notice then , fixed up in such factory in that behalf are mentioned as the times allowed for meals, shall be deemed to, be employed contrary to the pro visions of the said recited Acts as amended by this Act. Agreed to. Lord ASHLEY proposed the following amendments: —l'. 2, 1.12, Etter the word " Act," to insert " no child." Same page, 1. 16, after the words "provided and," to insert "no child." Sir G. GREY opposed the amendments. He contended that the present Bill had nothing. to do with children. It was merely a 811 t) carry out the ♦ery Bill which had been introduce) by the Noble Lord himself. The effect of the amendment of the Noble Lord would be to place a material restriction on the working of the machinery in factories, because it was impossible to carry on the usual operations in those establishments without having recourse to the-labour of women and young chil dren, and the amendment would limit the hours during which they were employed, further than was the me at present. On these grounds, ho should oppose the pro position of the Noblr, Lord. Mr. AGLIONBY supported the amendment. He was not only anxious to bruit the period during which women and young persons were engaged i❑ factories. but al,o to prevent them beginning labour at too early an hour in the mornipg, or leaving off at too lets an hour in the evening. „ Mr. S.'CRAWFORD considered that any Bill which called a child . up trona ita bed at half-past tour, was a Bill which ought not to receive the sanction of the House. Mr. BRIGHT wish.d toplace before the House what would be the practical effect of this proposition. If the Noble Lord understood the effects, be thought that he would be the lust person to propose these amendments. When an alteration was formerly made in the law re garding the hours of working f children the effect had been that many hundreds of children had been driven from factory employment. It they pursued that course, as was now proposed, that none should work before six in the morning and wter six at night, the corsequences would be that still more would be driven from it. It was not a question which very materially affcted the interest of empl Teti so much as the children, and he thought it desirable that the House should be made aware of the effect of the,e amendments. Mr. ED WARDS said that in his part of the country, Halifax, it was unusual there to find a child unemployed, and many of them were getting as much as 51. a week. Sir H. WILLOUGEIRY said he would be glad to know what the effect of this amendment would be on the adult labour of the manufacturing districts. Mr. TATTON EGER lON said that the effect of this amendment would be entirely to restrict the moving power of adult labour, and he asked the House if they were prepared to do this ? Mr. ELLIOT was of the same opinion, and he be lieved that this atnendnaen was nothing more than a blow by a aide-wind at adultlabour, which hitherto had not been sought to beinterfered with. Mr. HUME . asked if the Rouse were in a condition to limit, as was proposed by this amendment, the working of the machinery of the country to eight or•nine hours? He deprecated any attempt to interfere with the labour of the working man; under the pretence of removing a pressure from the people they would divert the capital of the country, on the employment of which the working classes were wholly dependent, since it gave them the means of employment and subsistence.—(Loud cries of " Divide.") LOrd ROBERT GROSVENOR denied that this amendment interfered with the labour of the people; it was only meant to protect children from being over worked. Mr. W. J. FOX said the great body of the operative ef this country would hail this measure as a great boon, notwithstanding that it was so vehe mently opposed by the maaufacturing capitalists. He denied that this Bill meant to prevent the factory operatives of this country labouring for a longer period than they desired to do. If it was true that the operatic es had beets misled or overawed, the Government had the power to ascertain the fact, and to find out their real opinions. This had, indeed, been done, and the result was, that 50 per cent were in favour of ten hours, 25 per cent. in favour of 12 hours, and 12 or 13 per cent: in favour of 11 hoUrs. He believed that the choice had therefore fallen on a Ten Hours Bill. It was of the greatest possible importance that children should be protect. d against excessive labour, and that they should not be prevented having the advantage of educa tion by being kept employed to a late hour in the evening. After a few words from Mr. BROWN and Mr. SPANS. FIELD, who were not heard in the gallery, owing to the impatience o, the House to have a division, The House then divickd, when there appeared— For Lord Ashley's amendment 159 Against it ss- 160 Mejority against the amendment 1 The result was received with loud cheers by the members in favour of the. Noble Lord's amendment. On re-entering the gallery we found Lord J. MANNERS addressing the House in support of the amendment of which he had' given notice, for the purpose of limiting still more the hoUrs of labour in the case of women and young persons. Disguise the ques tion before them as they might, its real import was, would the Parliament of England refase to the working peop`e of this country a boon which they had on a former occasion freely accorded to them? That was tee real question upon which they had to decide, and Heaven send that the decision of English gentlenen upon it might be in accordance with English honesty and English honour! From what had recently passed in that House one would hsy thought that such a thing had never happened be rore, as that it was necessary to amend in one session of Parliament an Act passed in the preceding one; but every gentleman knew thar, such things were not of rate oc currence. The House would remember that in 1846, when Parliament had determined t o a brogate all the laws imposing duties on the importation of grain , it wa s discovered towards the close of th e sess ion that, owing t o an inaccuracy in the Bill, a fixed duty for a limited period was left on beans and peas. 'The time for which the duty could be raised was so ,limited, that it was not thought worth while to pass a distinct Act reme lying the defect; but let it be suppOshel that, instead of a ver bal inaccuracy, affecting only the import of beaus and peas for a limited peeled, it had been discovered a year or two after that there were conflicting decsiOns in the inferior courts on the subject, and that it was decided by one of the supreme courts thatnot only beans and peas, but every kind of cereal product,e, but for ever , what wou ld have to pay a fixed duty, not f u r a limited time, then would have be en - t h e l anguage of the Right Hen. - the Member for T amwort h , an d t he Hon. Member for the West Riding ? T hey wou ld a t once have insisted upon a remedy being i n t ro d uce d. But what would have been thought if they ( t h e P rote ctionists) had turned round and thrown ev er y o b stac l e in the way of repairing the blunder ?—(Hear, hear.) Yet suc h a course would not have been more bl ame abl e than that pursued by Geatlemen opposite with respect to the Factory and (Hear.) In point of p r i nc i p l e , whet was the difference between the propositio n o f the Ministry an d that to whi ch t h e t y n • we n G e e poorntens a n the friendless, he had a ll u d e d? B ut i n the one c ase the parties were powerful, i n the other h and c ou ld appeal to nothing but t h e honour and justice of the H o u se of Commons. The Noble Lord then referr e d to the opinio n o f the Might for Ripon, and to t h e last factory r eport, and other au thorities to sho w t h at i t was the i n tention of the framers of the Act of 1844 t h at the working by shifts practised A. under the ..t of 1833 s hould be prevented, and that it should be v ir tua ll y a T en Hours fill. The Noble Lord the Dilernber f or Bath; w h en his i n troduced his Mea sure, had brought f orwar d a conc l us ive chain of evidence as to the beneficial w or ki ng of the Tel 'f ours Bill ; y et, as Son. r Member he (Lord J. Manne rs ) understeod it was the intention of the Honourable Member for Manchester to give reasons to show that the statement of his Nohlt, Friend were er roneou., he thought it right to confirm those statements by evidence which he thought could admit of no dis pute. He should not quote from the st itements of men tal enthusiasts, but f rom th e calm o pinions recorded its a gentleman •. t o 3 7 capable of firming an opinion, and inclined from his position to take a view hostile to the Act of 1844. He would . ref-r to the statement of the spacial commissioner of the . Morning Chronicle sleet .lows to the manufacturing districts to report on the condition of the people. Speakine of the Ten Hours Bill, that gentleman said be found one point utmost uniformly conceded, and which was wrongly verified by his o wn observation, that the best conducted workmen in each mill were thoee" who were most earliest for the Ten Hours Bill, and as to the females, the testimony was Universal that it was one of the greatest boons that had been granted. That opinion was corroborated by every report from the literary itaseectars, Ist every I,etition presented to the House, and particularly by the remarkeble petition he had himself present - d from the managers and overlookers of milli in Rochdale and • Halifax. Thu same thing was also stated in a peti tion presented from 387 overllookers in Manchester. Mr. Sender,: also qua te& as a satisfactory- proof of the beneficial operation of tha- Act, the increased power it had given to the working people in Yorkshire to obtain smell plots of ground, and to cultivate little gardens for their own use. Then, if such were the beneficial results of the Act of 1847 on the condition of the manufac turing population—if their toil had been lightened, their means of obtaining education greatly increased— the comforts of thousands of heroes promoted by the cul tivation of the soil, perhaps the purest and most -simple of enjoyments permitted to the dwellers upon earth, he would ask whether it had been accomplished by any great sacrifice on the part of the master manufacturers. roe asserted that such was net the case, and he would refer, as a proof of it, to almost every speech delivered from tie Manches.er benches opposite on every debate during the present ses.ion on the condition of the c. untry. flies had told the House that never in their memory was trade so brisk, or the interest of the manufacturing districts placed on so safe and se :we a has, ; atel yet ne suppased they would now say if 'his great boon was not taken away from the factory worker the employers would be aucrified on the shrine of a mock humanity. But the factory workers would not, he thought, be disposed to attach much weight to prophe cies of teat kind. They had been, in the last twenty years, too sell accustomed to such prophecies to put much faith in them. If Hon. Gentlemen opposite said, " We admit that the manufacturing interest is flaurishing sed medio in Joule lepoi um surgit amari quod ipsis in ftoribus (ingot' "—if these Cassandras of Staley bridge nould say that the weal or woe of the manufac turing intereata of Yorkshire and Lancashire depended upon this half-hour he would take leave to doubt the value of that assertion. Hon. Gentlemen opposite might speak of American competition, but let the House con sider what that American competition we". It was either a bugbear or a sad and stern reality; if it were the former let the House disregard it; if the latter, could any gentleman think that this solitary half-hour would enable the master manufacturers successfully to re sist it? He dismissed, then, the assumption that the Act of 1847 had worked ill, and would assert that its effect had been beneficial to the working people, and not detrimental to the masters. If in dse t any doubt were entertained on the subject, he would refer to a petition in favour of the Ten Hours Bill which bad been presented to that House, and which wag signed by a number of the master manufacturers in Lancashire employing a great number of workmen. In the opinion of a great body of the master manufacturers, their interests were not sacrificed in continuing the boon which every one admitted had been conferred on the working people. As to any advantage that this Bill would confer on the working people, let him ask what was the advantage in taking from them two hours a week? What was the compensation which dignified this measure by the name of a compromise? It was said that the object of it was to prohibit women and evening,youn gpe b rs u o t ns he fr w om ould working appeal t after o a n six m ao'clock conversant with the manufacturing districts whether, after the decision in the Court of Exchequer, in 99 n practically lnh te cases out of 100, women and young persons did not leave off their work at half-past five and not six? In those cases, therefore, the boon now proposed was not a boon, but was an addition of half-au-hour's work. It was true that when the Government proposal was first marie, sedulous attempts were male to induce the working people to believe that the effec - , of this Bill would to to make them leave the mills at six o'clock. and prevent adults working after that hour. But now his Noble Friend had learnt, he doubted not with regret and indignation, that neither was such the effect of the Bill nor the intention of Ministers, and he thought his Noble Friend had some reason is complain of a want of ingenuousness on the part of Ministers, who permitted his Noble Friend and their advocates in the papers and their daily organ the Times newspaper, to promise the working pe ,ple that such would be the result of the mea sure, that the moment the clock struck six every mill would necessarily be closed ; and now, after two divi sions, it turned out that the Government never did in tend that such should be the result of their measure.— (dear, hear.) They had it, therefore, established now that under this Bill mills might bc worked by adult males and young children until half-past eight o'clock and so the sole boon conferral on the working people was that in 99 csses out of 100 women and young persons would be compelled to work half-an•hour longer than at the present moment. But, it might be said, why make such a strife for so small an object as halt-sri-hour? He should have thought that half-an-hour taken from the working people against their wishes, agiiinst their ad mitted rights, against their intention, would not have been re,arded as a light or trivial matter. He knew with what feelings the working people and the clergy and gentry in these districts regarded this proposidon of the Government. Let him refer to the statement of the committee of managers, overlookers, carders, spinners, and other branches of factory work in Bolton. on this point.: The committee said that during this half hour, if taken from the , working people, they would learn this lesson—they would regard the matter as a violation of their Magna Charta, and would look upon the Legislature as the invaders of their ceded rights and the detraudeis of the working classes. It was not the way to form loyal and loving subjects. He would not quote the language of the working men, justly indig nant at this invasion of the rights of their wives and children, but he entreated the House to listen to the calm opinion of calm men, delivered solemnly to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, telling him Vat in Preston, and generally throughout Lancashire, it was essential, in order to carry out the principle that led to the Ten Hours Bill, that the hour of half-past five should remain unchanged for the cessation of work; that evening schools were generally established, and that the young factory hands attended them with much be nefit; that they were open from *even to nine, but that unless the children left the factory by half-past five they could not refresh and clean themselves so as to be at school by seven, and that if the schools were interfered with it would be productive of much injury. That statement was signed by the clergy of Preston, and he found that their opinion was shared by the vicar of Brad ford, the vicar of Leeds, than whom no person knew better the practical working of this measure, and by the r vicar of Bingley. This half-hour was, in fact, nearly a forth part of the time appropriated to the improvement of the rising generation of the factery workers; and he would ask those who were so interested in the spread of education, and who were so anxious to bring before that House Bills for the establishment of public libraries and museums, how they could reconcile it with their own profesetensi, and he doubted . not their own earnest conviction% to take away, agiinst the intentions of tee Legislature and the wishes of the people, a fourth part of the time devoted to the religious, mural, and in tellectual improvement of the great body of the working people of this country. But he would be told he did not take into consid-ration the great boon of half-an-hour offered by the Government on the Saturday. He bad considered it, and, so far from regardine it as a boon, he thought it was productive of no insignificant evil, and when the House bore in mind that the factory people on t a h il e d i r tzkest reflected ti ,whichtat under was t c h m , tt ei Saturday worked four hours and a half continuously and then went to dinner, and afterwards returned to the mills l on all hands to be the most severe, the hardest, and most Go vernment measure they would have to work five hours that a!l their t toil, o continuously on Saturday, and, then tinrefreshed, and with. out having their dinner, would go to the most severe of ethxeertnolr'rking.hours of labour, he thought the House would to performm of a gree with:him , that so far from tbis half-hoard:wino light or trivial matter, it was a most serious arid crying evil. N a Englishman liked to work up on an empty stomach, aTdyetnigt longer n aosnowproposed th a t t h ese people should work l loSaturday, when ;their labour was most severe, without their meal. It-was indeed a compromise of nothing, unless it were the rights of the people and the honour of Parliament. Were he a political sap porter of the Government, he should regret the course they had taken; even on partisan and political grounds, but as an opponent of their political policy, he did regret it on national considerations.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was not well that any portion of the working people of this country should be taught by the sworn maintainers of the law and order that wealth was more powerful than justice, and that agitation, more formidable than the secret pressure of associated millowners, was required to procure from the executive Government the sapction of Parliament to the admitted rights of the people. The Act which it was now proposed virtually to. repeal was granted to the people with the deliberate consent of all branches of the Legislature, and was ratified in a peculiarly solemn manner by the special approbation of that gracious lady who reigns over us. Was it well that the Government shOuld invite the House to come to a vote that should compel her Majesty to re turn int.) the hands of the working people that testimo nial which she had been so graciously pleased to accept from them?—(Hear, hear.) Upon the reverse of that medal, purchased by the pence of her toiling subjects, and cherished, as he knew, by her Majesty as one of the net least glorious of the many trophies attached to the imperial crown she wore, were inscribed the words, " The Ten Hours Bill."—(Hear.) Was it well that the Ministers, the confidential advisers of that So trereign, should ask the House now to come to a vote which should render that precious medal a rant mean ingless coin, or, if it meant anything, that it shoud be a memorial of the inconstancy of Parliament, of the levity or fickleness of the Government, or of the folly of the people that would confide in either? Let not the House come to a decision) oni this question with their eyes closed. Let not Members flatter themselves that, by rejecting the amendment, they would settle the question, and put an end to agita tion.—(Hear, hear.) Did those who had a dread of professional agitators and demagogues, and wished to re move all the materials of seditious agitation, imagine that they would attain their object by ad,iing two hours to the toil of a great body of the working classes?— (Heim, hear.) Was there a S , cielist or Chartist, dissa tisfied with the institutions and forms of government es rablished in this country, who would not point exult ingly to Parliamentary fickleness, levity, subserviency to wealth, and indifference to the claims and rights of the pier? They would-point to the vote of the Elouse, and " Hoc Ithacus velit, et magno mercentur Atridte." Depend on it, that by editing the course recommended by the Governtuent, the House would place arms in the hands of those men, and arguments in their mouths; and this would be the rewlt t7f what wai Jesuitically recommended as a settlement of the question!—(y ear , M4ist earnestly did he deprecat? that result, and invited the Rouse to wen the thratc fling mischief. It f arther evidence were necessary to just f. the course which he recommended, it might be fiund in a d Aeration which the Honourable Mt-natter for Mau chest.r made, after the Tars Hour* Act pAssk d, to a deputation of millownars, who waited ou thew for the purpose of,as,ertaining whether there wes any chuntte of obtaining a 12, 11, or even hours Bill. Upon that occasion the ,M , mbers tor -Manchester declared that so strong was the feeling of the ;louse of e‘itti o - mns that it was pled t i tic Ten Hours Bill that t was impossible f,.•r them to hold out the stnall.ou ext,cc tation that any one of thee propositions would b..; adopted. lie hop-d that the - Rom Members for 111.- chestor would prove eipr , ect exprodits of the holing W . the House.—(lle• s r, hear.) At any rate he invited the House to redrem the pledge which they had given, and t prove to the working people of this country that they attached more value to the declared intentions of an Act of Parliament, to the claims and righte of the working people, and.to the beneficial working of the Act which her Majesty bad sanctioned, than they did to the back stairi influence and coffee-house, combinations of any set • f associated milli , wners.—(l - Te4r, bear.) He eppealed the,sncient spirit of English honour in vindication o' the right.—the admitted rights—of English labour; h appealed to the House to show thi,t they ^ere rod, only n name. but in very, deed and reality, the represewa rives of the Commons of Eogland —(Loud cheers.) rhe. Noble Lord coneludtd by m •ving the followim: atuemitneryst—ln clause 1, line 14. that the word "six" bit twitted for the purpose of iiiserting the words " b past five;" and in line 18, that the word " two" be mnitt-d, for the purpose of inserting the words "haif.paet three." Mr. HORNBY expressed his regret that the suppoite era of the Ten Hoins Act were no longer led by the N ‘ble Lord the Member for Bath, though that regret was somewhat diminished at finding their torwer leader had found a most able seccessor in the Noble Lord who had just addressed the House.—(Hear.) At the same time he feared that the des* rtion rf the cause by the Noble Member for Bath would cause it to los, the sup port of a large number of votes in that House. The operatiws were much indebted to the N-ble Member for Bath tor his formers xertions in their b: half, and it was only to be regretted that he had not given notice in suf ficient time of his ituentiou to abandon the tea hours clause. The Legislature had now the advantage of ex perience in favour of the ten hours clause, for all the predictions of evils to result from it had been falsified, whilst all the premises of good to follow from its adop tion had been verified.— (Hear.) The Hon. Member for 'Manchester once declared that if provisions were re duced in price the working classes would be as well off by working ten hours ai they then were after working twelve, and at another time he said that if the corn-!awe were repealed the masters and their workpeople would come to an agreement about the hours of labour. How did the Honourable Member reconcile those statements with his recent declaration, that the masters were so annoyed by the legal restric tions imposed on them that they were resolved not to consult the comfort of the persons they employed ? (Hear, hear.) .The Hon. Member accused the supporters of the 10 hours clause with being actuated by 'gum ant sentimentalism;. but certainly no one would charge the Hon. Member with acting under the influence of senti ment of any kind.—(Hear, hear.) In 1844, during a critical state of parties, and when the members of Ile., present Government sat on the Opposition benches, Sir R. Peel being Premier, the present Firat Lord of the Treasury said:— " He was much struck with the statement of the Hon. Member for Leeds, that, out of 70 owners of mills. 40 were ready to adopt 10 hours, and had signed a petition to that effect. Now, when they were told of the alarm which existed (and he believed alarm did exist) at their legislation on that subject, was it not something to be urged in support of the principle, that practised men, who, it might be thought, ought naturally to have op posed it, were nerdy to adopt the proposition? It was a difficult thing to inrerrere with toil, but the time was come when he thought they ought to do so. And if he were called upon to point out another measure of relief, it would be that which would allow of a greater supply of food ; thus insurieg the double boon of diminished labour and increased enjoyment of the necessaries of lite." On the same occasion the present Secretary for the Home Department said:— " They should look to the reasonable wishes of the great body of operatives, and sti,proaett ten hours gradually; that they were fully competent to take a ju , t, view of the question; that they had admitted to him that they expected a reduction of wages, but that the evidence then preponderated in favour of ten home." The Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet, supported by eight other Members of the present Government, voted against the the n Gevernment upon the question, end put . it in a minority of eight. I: the Noble Lord and the Hight Hon. Secretary for the Home Depart ment wished to escape the imputation of being actuated in 1844 by facious and part. motives, they must state the grounds on which they were now prepared to aban don the policy they then alvocated.—(Rear. heir.) Whether the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet sere governed by the private iefluence and advice to which they were subjected from those who sat behind them he knew not, but the House and the country had a right to be informed of the grounds on which the opera tives were to be deprived of the boon which . the Legis lature had conferred on them. In conclusion, the Hon. Member called upon the House to support the amend meats proposed by the Noble Member for Colchester, if it wished to maintain its honour and good faith.—(Hear.) Sir G. GREY hoped the House would not adopt the amendment of the Noble Lord, and he hoped further that it would not decide in ignorance of its effects end bearings. If anybody had come suddenly into the House, and had heard only the speeches of the Noble Lord the - Member for Colchester and of the Hon. Member who hid followed him, they would be quite igno rant of the real merits of the question. Having stated what the members of the present Government sail in 1844, the Hon. Gentleman said he could not understand their gross inconsistency. But when the lion. Gentle man spoke to him (Sir George Grey) of having given a vote in deference to the secret advice of the Hun. :11ene ber for Manchester, he must take leave to remind the lion. Gentleman that when professing to contrast the vote he (Sir G. Grey) had then given with the vote he was now about to eive, he had omitted to state one im portant fact—namely, that when in office in 1847 he had given effect to that vote by supporting the Bill then brought forward.-e(Elear, hear.) In taking the course they were now adopting he contended that the Govern ment was doing nothing in contravention of the Act of 1847, but on the contrary that they were doing that which they believed would secure the attainment of those objects to a far greater degree than they could be se cured by any.other mode; and above all with the cordial concurrence and consent of the milloweieg interest in that country. And he had certainly always contended that it was most desirable for the interests of all parties that any settlement that was come to should be made with the combination and concurrence of the millowners and great body of the operatives. Notwithstanding the strong terms and violent language of the Noble Lord, who had thought proper to come down to that House prepared to denounce it, he had the best possible rea , on to believe and the best possible evidence that the Bill before the House would secure to the operative,: the be-. netits intended by the Legislature in a greater degree than they had ever enjoyed them before. One word with regard to the charge insinuated by the Noble Lord that the Government were mere shields to carry on the secret councils of the milloavuers and of the Hon Member for Manchester—he could assure the House and the Noble Lord that he had never refused to see any parties in connexion with the subject, and that both himself and his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) had had more interviews with the delegates and factory operatives, and had devoted more time to discussing the question with then:, than with the millowners. They had had au opportunity of clearly stating their views, which he be lieved to he honest hut mistaken, and it was nut in the. absence..of due communication with them that they had adopted the course now before the House.. The Noble Lord had spent a great deal of time in arguing that toe errorin the Bill was a mere clerical mistake, and when such occurred that an Act, was passed as a matter of course, to give effect te the original intention. But the question was was it a mere clerical error? why, it tureed upon the construction that could be legally given to the Act of 1844. If it bad been only a clerical mistake, it would have been long ago corrected. • All parties were anxious to have the decision of a court of law upon the disputed point; that decision was at length obtained, arid, being adverse to the operatives, the Noble Lord the Member for Bath asked leave to bring in. a Bill to carry the intentions of Parliament into effect, He (Sir G Grey) pointed out the difficulties the. Noble Lord was likely to encounter in the progress of his mea sure; but neither himself nor any of the meni hers of the Government offered any opposition to it. The Noble Lord theta, finding that his Bill did not carry the intention of Parliament into effect, asked leave to have it. committed pro forma, then with drew it, and introduced another, which it was found would be equally 'inoperative. He (Sir G. Grey) had been in communication with the fae'ory inspectors and Others, and they assured him that the Bill was equally open to evasion as the other. He had then interposed himself, and the plan he proposed was admitted by the Noble Lord to be decidedly preferable to any other fur carrying out the intentions of the Act of 1847. and his Noble Friend who had been traduced that night—(Hear, hear)—by an Hon. Gentleman who called him a deserter from the cause, and by the Noble Lord who said that he experienced a feeling of shame standing in the place of the Noble Lord the Member for. Bath—had, he (Sir G. Grey) maintained, been throughout the faithful and, some might say—although he would not say so—the too zealous adroCate of she rights of the factory operatives. —(Hear, hear,) That Noble Lerd saw at once the ad vantages his Act Was likely to confer upon the working classes, and said at once he would surrender his Bill, and piece the matter in the hands of the Government.— (Elear.) Certainly, taking the Noble Lord's amendment as it was now proposed, they would be able to secure, arithmetically, 5i hours instead of six; but they would do away with the intention of the Acts of 1844 and 1847, which gave the millowners a range of fifteen hours during which their ten hours might be taken. If the millowner wanted to evade the law, instead of giving the hands one hour and a hell' for meals, he might say that he would give them three hours, and thus keep the hands at the mill one hour and a half later than half past five, at which hour under the present measure they would be relieved. Now, the Noble Lord the Mee:ber for Bath, seeing the advantages of his (Sir G. Grey's) preipo,itton, hail acted as he believed for the benefit of the operatives, arid left the matter in his hands, and be must say that he (Sir G Grey) was not ashamed, wider ouch circumstances, to be subjected to the charge of its consis!ency. It was asserted by the Noble , Lord the Member for Colchester that if the present measure Passed it would take away frem the eperatives the benefit of the Act of 1844 and the Act of 1847. lie de nted that ut%erly. The great advantege of hi s psopesi tion was, that the oper a t ives h a d their evenings seater: d - to them from six o'clo c k f or r e creation and ionProv''m t e he ' r r Il m is much was c !in, th. - 4t if they .elopted any alteration, whatever s t r i c tness they mighs in t rod.o rith: millowners would b e a ble to make ''r that would depri ve th e opPratives of the advarriTtilf:es Nohle the Legislature intor.d t -d they shoulde► , joy. Ford had complaiuod of the hardship or allowing the t workmsn a half-holiday en Saturday. All be could =ay wigs. th it that was the first time be had nearil 611 Ch fill tdjectlon n.ade, and tw ;ielieved that the operatives at etched the er,a , ..est value to the enjoyment ofc a half iiolidsy on Stitir..ays. Sir J. HOMIOUSE—The greatest impertsnce was always attached to it by the np. rativee. Sir G. GREY_- Hi, Right 11 , ..n. Fiend. whose eXPe; ti( nce was much gr‘ater than his own, fully corroborated Uuder tiiese circumstatiees, he hoped the Howe .sould pause before it atlopted the sineudment of the Noble L rd. The Hon. Geetliman opposite hod ttslked of gord faith and honour, as if there was any violation of either in carrying out the spirit of the Act u 1847. He hoped the House would not be induced to reject the pro position he had submitted to it, and which offered, he believed, the only satisfactery solution that could be ob tained o the question. He repeated lyrist the Hon. Gentleman hail reminded him he had said on a former occasion—that it wn( tniait desirable !hat the retoonab;e wishes of the ep. , ratives should be attended 0. It W 44 in that belief that he had submitted that propisition to, it., House ; anu he must say that. if the amendment Ur the Noble Lord was adopted he should be covapsllcd to ab stilton any •uttber charge of the (Hear, hear.) Mr. BANKES observed that the Right Hon. Baru" net had omitted to melee a statement of the Noble Lord the M.anber for Colchester, which showed that to a large portion of opetaiives the Bill would, so fir from being a baon, be a decided loss. That statement wo , that at the present moment 99 out of 100 op.-ratives had the full benefit of the Ten Hours Ac.; and the Ho"' Member who seconded the amendment observed that the relay system met with so little sanction from manu facturers themselves, that public opinion would be s ufli• Meet to put it down if the law were left as it we& P was for the House to consider whether. if this menu' meat were not adopted, it would not be tester for the operatives that no Bill should pass than that one shou ld pass which would confer no benefit on 99 out of 1. 00 operatives. Ile thoueht there was nothing unfair in the comparison which had been institt.ted between the con duct of . the Right Honourable Baronet in 1844 and th e principle of the Bill; there was an essential variance he' tween the views of Honourable Members now on She Treasury bench at that period, and their acts at the Pr e .: sent moment. None would be less disposed than he wee believe that any imputation could rest on the charse ter of the Noble Lurd the Member for Bath. In this' as in every action of his life, the Noble Lord, be be lieved, was interested by a sincere desire to act in con" formity with what he said and honestly intended to 'do; and, since the Noble Lord st a ted so , it was m anifest that he regarded this as a good compromise for the working people. But why should there be a comPo" mice at all ? Under this Bill the range of hours W 6e not limited. As regarded children, it was still from half past five A N. to eight P. N. ; yet that was the at es whom it was the intention of their past legislation °Moil/ to benefit. Mr. thouthat erin te cumstances *under STANFOß which t ee tattre cons bad id been g se t sa e ' thy+ class of persons who were affected by the decision f the Court of Exchequer were ei.titled to be pl a ced in the postion in which it was originally intended by Parliament that they should be pieced. He should stir port the amendment of the Noble Lord the Member for Colchest-r. Mr. NEWDEGATE inquired whether, in the opinion of the Attornae-General, the insertion' of the words pre' posed by the Noble Lord the Member for Colchester would invalidate the,Bill? [The ATTORNEY-GENEBa Ia intimated that it would not.] Why did the Right 11 0 ' nourable Baronet the Secretary for the Home DePar t• ment, in 1847, approve of limiting the hours of labour to 58, and now propose to add two hours more ? Th e effect of the amendment was to give the operatives the advantage intended to be conferred by the Act of 19 47 ' It was lamentable that the Government should shrink from their own acts. To such proceediugs—procee flog . which were neither creditable to Ministers nor fair to the operatives—he would be no party. He trusted in privets lice he kept his word; and he said here, in his plac e ; that those who gave up the limitation of 1847 did no keep their word with the factory workers. Mr. MUNI Z observed that if be thought the fac t : tory question was now to b e di scusse d, h e m i g ht es` Huneur.ble Members connected with trade whether i t .. any one manufactory they worked t en hourtr - s tar And if they did, whether they would net produce mor e than what they had orders for ?' He would endow vour to undress the ease—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)' about which there h a d b e . . n great mystification: . question with Members of .that Howe was, what di they vote for in 1847 ? Did they mean to give . bona fide Ten Hours Bit: or no t '. - -(Hear, hear.) ,?° far as his memory serv e d, every .tnan who voted the measure of 1847 fully intended that the parties should have a bona fide Ten Hours Bill. The questiei l .: - then was, would the proposed measure give thefti-° bona fide Tun Hours Bill, or would it rob 'them of two • hours a week? If Parliament robbed them of two hours a week, contrary to its intentions and declarations a t the time, what would Hon. Members think if the parties interested said the Legislature had made a bungling j ob of it, and asked an alteration in their own favour hr! • reduction to fifty-six hours a we e k? Supposing las' drew a bill on him for 3001., which he accepted; OP; posing it was afterwards di scovere d t h at t h e stamp was 7, wrong one, end he was to say to the m an , "‘I won't P i n ' • the bill, but I'll give you 2804"—(Loud cries of " Hear. That was a care in point. Parliament bad not only , off,red, but had given, a bond fide Ten Hours Bill; 'hip it was now said to the people to whom the Bill had been a given, " You sh a ll wor k two h ours a week extra." P: should vole for th e amen d ment , an d, as an honest nis", he could not do otherwise. If the House reversed the vote of 1847, under the pretence that thereby the work" ing classes would be benefited, they would do mo re than by anything else to discredit themselves--(tlear)"" and to make the people believe they were not honestly represented. air. HEALD, as represent a ti ve o f a constittlell°7 : l o e, that was one-third the largest consumers of cotton opus „ea': the face of the globe, begged leave to express his upon the subject before the House. Upon the ciples of honour and conscience, he f. It' himself cony pulled to a certain conclusion upon this question. 111 ' 1 : I " as vote was not in conf o rmity with the interests of t h - ,01 4 people, it should be placed to the fault of his judgiee p c i,; l4 ,ir in not corresponding with the judguient of those he ha the honour to repres en t. H e part l y agree d will i". Hon. Member for Montr ose i n his ob,ervation thst k ig was not only delicate, b u t d angerous to i u d terfere' legislation with labour. He thought that they 174 ' re "I mere in danger by legislati n g t oo M uc h t h an by stik 4 : ping short in the amou n t o f l eg i s l a ti on . H e neve r ca n understand why the hours of factory labour should eF teed the.hours of labour of an ordinary workman.. Act of 1844 provided f o r th ose very young' p e rsont,, s l , s * , 9 o favour of whom he gave his vote that night. .fes persuaded that the factory operatives believed it was' 0 i ; ; , y et / honest intention of Parliam en t t o 'li m i t t h e i r hours!?, labour to 58 hours in the week. It was then most da gerous to weaken in their minds that perfect coovieu";io',f, which they enterta ned in the integrity and the heil ° l of the British Parliament. He believed that they r: 4 l , (erred the Bill that limited their time of labour . te,,e4 tJ st hours in the week, and if they did not receive a - eita.li: 8 01 4 ' measure there would be no settlement of the quesif et % ei' i A syetern of agitation would then be created, the sit! 0 ' ~,,"41 1 of which r no person could tell. After a full exaniinst i° , l "' 41' of all the bearings of this case, he felt that they ass „/".` gain considerably by maintaining the high stintla;;llijol honour which it was the pride of Parliament topes` -.„e; ft , even though for the time bring they should suffer S, 0. 7 d ,00 1 ; :inconvenience. There was the question of the supply gfo , cotton to those mills. He th oug ht th a t t en h ou rs n . dr . would be, too much labour to expect unless they e° l !„e'• -" get a moro certain supply of cotton. He locked e'r i , immense interest to t h e mot i on o f t h e H on. M em ber le .0 4 Manchester.—(Hear, hear.) As a man of honour , t felt he should support the amendment of the Noble the Member for Colchester. .Mr. HEY W OOD supported the The o (ate. ;74 mauefacturers demanded an eleven hours Bill, iteu-:es 3 3 1 operatives demand e d a ten h ours Bi ll. The Govern • offered a ten and a half, and he thought that it, wsie e fit perfectly fair co m p rom i se , an d one calculated t o all parties. . .10 . Mr. W. J. FOX said that they had not tow to & c os .. , • on the policy of a t en h ours or an eleven hours whether they should confirm the former intention Legislature as expressed in , the Act which it liberately passed. In the present case he taw for departing from the decision come to in 1847. 'T of gencies of the trade did no t require it, for instead ° , a by hours being an inconvenient maximum of time, Id no means the average-which th e f actor y o p er atives e,° tbes . , reach for some years to co me . Thi s B i ll wo uld , • satisfy the Millownera' Association of • Mannheim, 1. e ar the factory operativ es ; th e f ormer wou ld b e ne dis s eve r. 0 fled as ever, and the latt er more di scontente d tha rl ,„y o ble,,,49 l ' 4 , The Bill, therefore. app eare d to hi m to b e , a s the - Lord the Member for Colchester had described, ic .6e ',, compromise of nothing but the faith and; hoDeu r c rell . Parliament. The Government had assigned to . tbe;l 3 7 o, Coolies in Jamaica nine hours a day labour . ; ativ es should they wish t o ma k e our own faCtory o Pw r lb i l ld • work 10 i? He simply asked th a t the 11 001° e d e uht keep faith with. thos e .p eo pl e . Th ere co uld be . ° ° ,,; 4 t he of the construction put u p on th e Bill of 1 8 1 7 , 1 "L et ild - ; operatives themselies, and up on th a t f e eling ba n z , cheerfully support the amend ment . —(Hear, hes.F o l 6 2' e eire Mr. Aide; matt. SIDNEY said the ` whether the Bill granted in 1847 was 10 flow, or whether advantage was to be taken o f for Go.- - cal error and 58 hours a week imbstit„t it c e e i re them' (Hear, hear.) The Govern men t w ould I would be selves greatly if they considered that this le , Its he did . , e e a settlement of the question; and renseew e ' en n e fiteturieg ,11` 1 i e the excitement that prevailed •in 'the were b el , f3 " :d' lt)4l, o o districts in 1830, the monster meetings . '",_ , wee eed the ;ado' and the agitation that was . organised, ee such pressed. House against again giving occasion to v ierth.,o ings on tbe part of the factory oueratives t The operation of the Ten - Hoare.' Bill a um • been most satisfactory—the manneric the m or a ls, , d _.:tune,,,d habits of the people had" been essentially - chop. _tioo, and reer e s A 0. 0 , , had been afforded them for reflection a the and they had been taught habits of providence; we_Y etet ittir e)00, who Ft:as was the caee, and whenahe ntaxiineal_f .•def, of labour imposed upon - criminals was 10 'hetT_J_Z reige„ - ii !$ Ol sirieelB47_,3lll,:!issll:ll from which one hour was to be deducted for e _l de teitt, lt, o l and another hour for instruction, should they'' in young persons under 18 years " r b co ir ,` 1 .01 women facLories, t , ) labour 10f hours day? He entire Y _, 41, . 10 .01 0 cUrred., hat this was a question in which the honour le" hould 'it ' A I4 in egrity the Heine were concerned, tend he , support the , rtnendinent. ilierio Mr. PATTEN said. this question had been hi l u ,p sly argued, si m pl e ano solely npon the ess_r_ e r e: tie', of a centract having been entered into . bet ..... : / h Parliament and the operatives, T.;e 1.,c;.- was thi'so -1847 the Ten Hours Act was, passed, after many y , a l di , ciivaion, and even then 'vial a Skuong teiding I s oli partuthosy of- th e imoJlicy of the thelsure• Sins then, tis ;lie r,Titsentative of h e county: of Line he had been reques t ed over and over seam ar 4l, to gpt ti le A ct mo,i l fied; true: be had aiWays advise dll 7 friend s no .• to i n t ei re with the decision at which ...11 liftmeut had arrived. Now, however, When au oppvi,u ~sf' d i i)JV very n Plqi Ou 4 J ql` fry. f ttS.