The Sun. — London, England, 1851-04-12 00:00:00

. ---- upon which we Sboul.lie;Li , l , it,P; and such remark: as that to which I have adverted only prove that it is sailer to draw up a statistical table then it is to govern i ta , an s k ind — Mean hear.) Go to a farmer who pays 7s. to tee pound for poor-retes and I am sorry to say there ), blue toreumlcaleaa:shYoiensh:lypehrp"Say i n ,: i . i . e B t a;% ll i i , u73[3::ojui;nhat:h:7ll:o/lot 3(Il You that that m a y be political economy, but that it i 3 !lot coat sense nor Englisia junice.—(ll. ar, hear.) I 44 " now placed befere the Heuse three measures — ten me asures—unobjectionable measure.—for the rweioission of taxation to the only interest in the country hien, according to her Majesty's Ministers, is i l *: ff , eri ng, and the only interest in the country which ( "ge Budget of her Majesty's Ministers is omitted. telissaiveettrh, hear.) There is a fourth measure,. not so ex ut which would be receivei with the greatest Would dr tlbeytthe hedfeatraio m eh ers;t the United Kingdom; and that from the miscellaneous expenses ee a nected wi t h the relief of the poor the expenses which T°ow entir e l y i ncurred for the establishment charges. e fixed salaries under the poor law system at this tore n ,. aad 6 , amount in Greet Britain to between 500,0001. 00 pow ek e , f ' • There is a particular mode in which one rn officers are paid—namely, by a poundage on the "'ea they fleet, s e° •Ltet, which renders it impossible to make at absolutely correct estimate under that head. Bat I to ( 1 1 e may safely take the ameunt of the salaries paid cers who administer the poor-law under the boards guard' se rvo Jahs—and all novel appointmeats, let it be oh s% ` 4, are the consequences of your new law—l think G„ s maY safely take the amount of those salaries for pe 'v tl at BritaM at about 550,0001. The analogous ex in Ireland would be about ISO.OOO/. On the whole, p7%letriee'clif. e, Yeuwould have to deal with a sum of about ' 0 001 • or 750,000/. Now .that would be a relief cora ls.— itself, and from its particular character celcu .rq to obtain great favour in the eyes of the occupiers _s the soil, ueser which well I believe that it is a measure wh deserves the consideration of her Majesty's Ministers. of t i a l t Ore the objections to it? It cannot be said lee) as :tole them; that land has been inherited sub za.ustnet c harges imposed neither can it be said that it • b"n P ur chasedsubjectto them. —( Hear, hear.) within the recollection of I ,, al l, l nerabers of thi s H ouse; th e y are c harges that w e ul ne ver have been placed on land if the repeal of i , e , °4l -laws h a d taken place in the year 1830.—(Hear.) rea r the zwe ption of that vast sum expended for the do no teh ance and o u td oor re li e f o f the poor, w i t h w h ic h I underPuroose to deal, th ere i s not l s . o f t h e ra t es l ev i e d aie t - , r ,the Poor-law that is not of novel origin; and I their irhpress on the House—indeed, I would appeal to eg, candour, whether they believe, with respect to the gi str i s t ?,de of local rates that exist. the taxation for re- thous of voters, for vaccination of children, and a ow /1 ' 44 other miscellaneous circumstances, that the to thate" and occupiers of land would ever have submitted tie_ remorseless taxation had they not been in posses aot° of that protective system, the merits of which I do c lue :ant to enter upon now, but the favourable copse welt" of which to that class you all acknowledge ? niaa a r e ' he ar.) That reason alma is one that ought to e h its consider these subjects with a very favourable g Pe en; ",ave now placed before the House four measures, Which e al• just, and beneficial, especially to the farmers, meat it , - _-!night have been in the power of the Govern ledge to forth—of the Government that acknow then-4,re distress of these men in the speech from Inele e ' s ur .,°ne; the Government that introduces a G°vineluding one of these measures ; the list a ern ment that withdraws that budget, and aeregs forward another omitting that remedial mea tier' Yet such is the course they pursue towards the ree;• suue ring class, while all other classes of the coin eeve'tY, to „ whom they devote the whole, of their surplus N e t e l ee, are in a state of unprecedented prosperity.— asee s r ', h ear.) From the beginning of the session the tie eei -e ,':°f the Administration has been an aggregate of li tau k t. ies never, I think, equalled in the annals of Par the The Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln, anCer night, seemed to imagine I was interfering li e f laeasure of which he had given notice for the re tete._°_f the farmers. First, I hope it is not my habit or tm te Pur to interfere with the position any gentleman has that and Scan assure my Hon. and Gallant Friend b ap ue is the l person I would interfere with, as I 4 10 : tb® greatest respect for him, and that no one is 44 e ntitled than he is to advocate the cause of the and er.--Hear hear.) But I would appeal to my Hon. riote Gallant Friend whether, in th e o bj ec t I h ave i n ee - ti es t° snight, I have in any way interfered with the m etal he has gi ven . The time will come when, legiti of Y, °°Y Hon. a n d G a ll ant F r i en d w ill as k the opin i on i t the at add ouse on the q ues ti on . Wh en t h at t i me comes will ah ea another to the anomalies whi c h so muc h th e and about th e con d uct o f the Government respecting a th at g r icultural interest. Th e f armers h ave comp l a i ned tl e th ey are c a ll e d on to pay a tax for profits which Pron°ot accrue My Hon. and Gallant F r i e nd h as p shall ae • d that the sc h e d u l e w hi c h l ev i es that tax th e no longer be levied. I should h ave th oug ht b: Government would have met the difficulty h Proposing that the profits of the farmers should ascertain e d in the same manner as those of all trades are ascert a i ne d .—( Hear , hear.) I should be extr eme ly I : e ' a d if they bad made that proposition, because the eon ,(lllenee would be that there would be a public emon is`tation to her Majesty's Ministers of the fact of d which j a ",ey seem . incredulous,. namely,.. that no farmer in Eng hun at this moment is making any profit at all.—(Hear, t e ,Sr) But, as Ministers have not proposed to ascer ntal the profits of the farmer in the same way as the G allant of ail other classes—Hear, hear)—my Hon. and . ant Friend may most legitimately put it to the Justic e of the House—of Hon:Gentlemen opposite—that ttttt the farmers are not permitted to prove that they do Make a profit from the trade they are carrying on, th t rial' be relieved from the preposterous arrangement, referred c ontinuance of which is now anticipated. I have ta les to what I believe to be the incidence of various e tai e e tk en the farmers, The strain is upon their energies; e ea ,ueY are a class whom this House are bound most to tli tit eo i s s y : e f e o r r •—(llear, hear.) I beg the House dispassion a element to take into their consideration who Men are of whom we are in the habit of speaking -, a ree es w e -1 1 ,° 0 Y and lightly. I speak not of their numbers, of the their virtues. Whatever may be the opinion re v ° nsouse as to the policy or impolicy of those laws hi",,,ting the entrance of foreign agricultural produce fitt e 7 Mt abrogated, remember always this, that the h ar - ne t ra were not the framers of those laws, though they set r e e : t ee i n their victims.—(Hear, hear.) . . Remember-1 You r C n t nellouse to remember—the position in which, by ha ve egislation, right or wrong, politic or impolitic, you h has blilaCed that budy of the community. Time, whic itherehrsre°s"iliont to of t s h h e o m wi a n d g versity, has also brought to them to the nation, of which they 9aalitie9• im portant portion, that they possess great °us t oo Reviled an d tra d uce d as t h e y we r e during am 0° no t controversies, th e y h av e shown great energy tien nter Prise; they have shown s kill and frugality; pa is 4 ° which is ne ver ex h auste d , an d perseverance w hi c h come fa bailed. —(Cheers. These are the men who th men te Z r ward to you for your sympathy. These are s e . rei gn, "°,ae sufferings were recognized by . their ave tiapt,: a tell gave them hope—whose sufferings were at • uow er - ' l O be remedied by the Minister in a manner. t eref. er ~steght, imparting at least some expectations of e e cnit eat These are the men who, in the extraordinary g,eot ed l a which they have been engaged, the unprece tql Whi4 i. r u i ggle which they have had to encounter, and g ave, b they have been involved session after session, Y the speeches of the Right Hon. Gentleman the ' 4ll.s ie la s e t e e l ! °r of the Exchequer—by the speeches of her 1 4 los Xitlititers in either House of Parliament—by peecb 4e tere e a of eminent members of the economic party t re at , z ile, been constantly encouraged to believe that a : 11 "eat - ib er . t t, t , i ng Price for thir toils, their industry, their `S'lteie e , - "ti a capital , inevitable, nay, was rapidly 0 :1 was wait a little tig er 'Cheers they had only to No e " 0 invest ) more capital in rare manures, to em s rnOr aeri e „ e enterprise in their business, to exercise more sus4 "d the inevitable result would be that they' fi rt ,„ _ !r •' 4 an ample and sufficient return for their in co ; a ti lt ° . -ktheir capital.—(Hear.) These are the men eapit y ear ' year find themselves in a worse position, al atter year find that the more they invest their ene re , e less is their return the more they exert their t i es nies t h e ~ . B eilee ees leas profitable and satisfactory are the con t *--easicar, hear.) These are the men of whom et tuhaneellor of the Exchequer told us the other night t o r orn p °37 ,. w ere not to look any longer for assistance Pa rtie r e i l laixtent s for countervailing uties, or remission tht ' lar taxation. the 14) ob Jeet of our legislationbut surely they . are the men, e e , r less en the co&tofu respecting whom should y ap , the market p . rod atop, .t . o permit them to ,4x,eadasid. brea, at ;tag e, and 'when of unlimited competition with ev . erxnt t the rest of the community arc . asking f ore abour....(Ochallow them at least to meet with un enahlt adiour eerie) I want the House, just be a 0 nsbefore we go to our constituents—to ane e .to b ear (11 that her to the fitriners of England the assur ta eat) T thqr Will find sympathy and justice.-- e e ssase ed 4 . r .ask the House to consider, in a spirit of fair l o °44 detf ee appeal to gentlemen opposite with as much eoesid er e *to thoCe who sit on this side—l ask them 1.4; 1 to q ui , all. that has occurre_th. is session with huset ea s„. class. •L ask her Majesty's Ministers to „lat ei g h t eat has occurred within the period of the Q te neien t wee kst and if they cannot reconcil e it s bacon . ee Me a l -'>their,conscience and reason, I hop e th ey w ill f`oligh , Yt e nough, and even candid a n d ki n d ° acknowledge the justice of the . case. 'ehli e m „ a ll the advantage which a recollection of the k 0 oe eaci ". that distracting circumstances necessarily Osatyc - et iel .'ed• I am willing to forget the p . ast if her rt n t ich th e 4ennistera will onl recur to the feelings with stt eat e / emnrnenced the session of Parliament, and h t ell of %atj Pt to fulfil t h e purpose t h e y announce d th e i r b. • se seer, ~ achieving. —( Hear, —(ilee.r, hear.) But I have not seen' C o ' tl'hattctugh hop . e I shall see, u disposition to re invitation. I don't know what gentlemen . ,mair,..ll. connected with the land may feel through J i N -. ' wo u a i ltue no, but when we left our constituents last be it t hem suffering from the injuries which in , • had been inflicted upon them ; and it would and ior us to go back to them and feel that we d as us Injured you were when we left you, Deal :t cy tia 3 ieu have been insulted."—(Cheers.) But I ap ,t!sel eauemtich confidence to gentlemen opposite. Nay, „item ndent that no one will presume, directly or in ma hope en ! Y or covertly, that by the moderate sugges 4erei made' ohave attempted to reverse our new coin tla "'tn. gentleman of great experience in this aeXpressed his belief that, far from having a ten a‘eitleY te verse our commercial system, it has a ten eel •-• confi • b el e t o n rne It. It may be a nice point to deter- Cri_• r?versal comnaences and where it ceases. Nekka.`r Alajesty's Ministers °f 'e th e • s.ers repropose the remedial d° fi r • e,te mat the s Y er thereselves i n t ro d uced? Is that a reversal et, 4 't 4,1 hop, sstern?—(Hear. hear.) L eas t o f a ll irit of the reat dearted will be ati r q to tile.ni to stand betwe g en an abundant Treasury hear of , ea r, gs the farmers of the United Kingdom. in °lute ° , „.) It is because I feel confident that the thi s epi r , - , 1 are about to piece in your her de is conceived et,! a lt °f justice; because I feel confident that no make shouldrred which, f rom any sent i ment of false prevent her Mojcsty's Ministers from °WTI 11- mad° by cease den for ally fro ul Hoff Ihe the or whi ch o f that I have " lued taxeiton, Wel DrOperY . bodiede a t adnu-' ome very I do 13 °' well, moderato THE SUN, ngsin reeensidsring their Bedeet—(Hew., hear, end liughtee)—and I need not remind the House that we have pre , :ssdews given for reconsidering it Budget by the Right Item Gentleman, not only threeiold precedents, but instencen more multiplied; it is because I feel that no matter of sentiment need prevent Ministers from passing the holidays; in that profitable contemplation of circumstances—(A Is ugh)—and from meeting as all again in good humour that I make my appeal; because I feel the course I have taken is a course which is calculated tO fill all classes, whatever their calling, with a con viction of its justice and equity; because I have studiously and seriously resolved not to interfere with the system of taxation generally devised for the advantage of towns, I appeal to the towns to assist their struggling brethren.—(Hoar.) I appeal to the towns to assist that most important and numerous portion of the middle classes, the farmers of the country—that class who, we are told, have been deprived of 106,000,000/. sterling, which was distributed among those most connected with them. It is because I feel assured of the sense of justice and sympathy among those who represent the trading community, and whose claims have so liberally been ac • knowledged by the Government, a liberality to which I do not object, as I do not grudge them their advantages, that I hope they will support me in this resolution, and that by eirrying this resolution they will terminate that sense of injustice, and soften those justly-wounded feel ings of honest pride, which I know animate at present the farmers of the united kingdom.—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman concluded by proposing his amendment, as follows: —" That, in any relief to be granted by the remission or adjustment of taxation, due regard should be paid to the distressed condition of the owners and oc cupiers of land in the united kingdom." Mr. LABOUCHERE observed, that the motion of the Hon. Gentleman appeared, from its terms, to be so self-evident a proposition as to amount to a truism. It was brought forward as an amendment on the proposi tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the House go into Committee in order to consider the substitution of a reduced house-tax for the existing window-tax. He was unable to understand what was the intention of the Hon. Gentleman in bringing forward such an amend ment, and had listened to the Hon. Gentleman's speech in the hope of discovering a clue to the enigma. But it left him in greater doubt than before. At one time he thought the Honourable Gentleman was going to bring forward counter-proposals, but he listened with astonish ment when the Honourable Gentleman declared that it was far from his intention to oppose a reduction of the window duty. The Honourable Gentleman's declara tions were at variance with the amendment; and under these circumstances he could not thick the Houourablit Gentleman serious in making such a proposition when tho House was asked to consider the financial arrange ments for the year. It seemed to be a " financial exercitatiou" with which the Hon. Member had favoured the House. The Hon. Gentleman assumed that the Budget was framed to gain popularity in towns, and give no substantial relief to others. He (Mr. Laboui; there) put it to Hun. Gentlemen opposite whether more, relief would not be afforded to the landed interest, espe:: dally the farmers, by the remission of the window duty, than by the remission of the income-tax? The former was spread over all classes. Forty-two houses paying the highest amount of window duty in six counties paid 2,0401. for windows, and would pay 5671. for house-tax, leaving a saving of 1,4731. Let any gentleman of 10,0001. a year compare his income-tax with what he paid for his windows. The farmer would benefit much more also by the remission of the window-tax. Tenants' income-tax did not apply to any farmer who rented un der 3001. a year. The exemption from window duty began only at 2001. a year; so that the large class of far mers holding at rents between 2001. and 3001. would de rive no such benefit from a remission of income-tax as they did from commutation of window duty; and besides it muss be recollected that few farmhouses were rated at 201. a year, so that the exemption from the house tax would apply to a large extent. There was an advantage of the window-tax to which he could not help adverting, namely the effect on the moral habits aad sanitary condition of the poor classes of the com munity. He need not prove this at any length; but would shortly quote the words used by one who was the highest authority on a question of this kind—he meant the Noble Lord the Member for Bath. Tim Noble Lord, in bringing forward his motion the other day to encou rage the erection of model lodging houses, made the following statement with regard to the remission of the window-tax. He said:— " He wished also to bear testimony to the great value of the reduction in the window duty, end wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer were present to hear the result of the experience obtained by those interested in the model lodging-houses. The Streathaua•street house contained suites of apartments for 50 families. If these suites were separate, there would be no window-tax, but being under one roof, window-tax became eligible to the amount of between 601. and 701 a year, adding 255. a year to the rent of each set of apartments. Tho removal of the window duty would permit a reduction of rent from 7s. to 6s. 6d., and so on." might a,ptinesr sh oe ftlbenefitsraenosc congratulatetrusted but theit middlewil tl os e eul t l f h d o t d u h o g e ht classes itite, wremittingtherefore, tootwh t n l i nel e ye wr csi H oe anodnurdessvre: great areexu also upon the most defenceless and most numerous class of the community. The Hon. Gentleman had brought forward four proposals on the present t occasion, but he t d o id so n h o m t i u t n t d h e e r m sta to nd th h e imcontsoidesraay that n a o t f be th e H ac e tu e a se lly er meant that he asked the House to vote for them as a substitute for the financial proposition of the Government. His Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had sub mitted to the House a financial arrangement, not differ ing in principle from that which he brought forward in the early part of the session, and the practical question for the House to consider was, would they :tempt his Right Hon. Friend's proposition, or substitute another which they thought had a superior claim to their sup port? .They had already discussed the first motion of Hon. Gentlemen opposite with reference to the financial scheme of the Government—viz , a motion for the reduc tion of the income-tax; and now, when it was proposed on the part of the Government to repeal the window du ties and substitute a house-tax, the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire came forward with an amendment couched in terms which he must say he found it difficult sufficiently to understand—a proposal which he could not make out to bo a practical one at all.—(Hear, hear.) Toe terms of the Honourable Gentleman's amendment were sufficiently vague and ambiguous, but, neverthe less, the effect of it would be very great and very dime gerous, and therefore he asked the House not to agree to the proposal of the Honourable Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire was constantly deprecating discussion upon our recent commercial legislation on occasions of that kind; buto nevertheless, he (Mr. Labouchere) could not help think ing that a reversal of that policy was at the bottom of all his thoughts.—(Hear, hear.) The object of the present motion was, that the state of the agricultural interest ought to be considered in all questions regarding taxation iu this country. Of course, it ought—no one denied that proposition; and, therefore, why discuss it? Had the Hon. Gentleman adhered to the fires wording of his motion, and proposed that the House should, "in the first instance," consider the remission of taxes to the agricultural interest. he should then have understood the proposal; but the Hon. Gentleman retreated from that position. He found, no doubt, that the remission of the window duty had taken a deep hold on the feel ings of the people, and that among his own supporters there were gentlemen unwilling to commit themselvei to opposition to the repeal of that duty, which they saw would be as great a boon to the agricultural interest as to the rest of the community.—(Hear, hear.) Ho was not surprised, therefore, that the Hon. Gentleman should have shrunk from any motion that might have endan gered that proposal, but then he was bound to tell them definitely what he meant by the motion which he had actually submitted to the House. No doubt the real intention of the Hon. Gentleman was to oppose the Budget of the Government, and therefore he thought he should have embodied his motion accordingly. He was unwilling on the present occasion to enter upon the question of our recent commercial legislation, or to speak of the prosperity by which that legislation had been followed; but still, as he believed the. real object of the Hon. Gentleman was to reverse that policy, or at the very least, to induce the House to stop in their free-trade career, he thought it would be wrong to omit any opportunity of reminding the House what the condition of the country really was.—(Hear, hear.) Since 1841 there had been a remission of taxes . to the extent of 5,000,0001.; for, practically, it came to that—but such had bei-n the buoyancy of our trade and commerce that there had been an excess of revenue of other s,ooo,oool.—(Hear, hear)—and whether they con-, sidered exports or imports, pauperism, or the amount of our consumption of the necessaries of life, they found it proved beyond a doubt that the great body of the people were singularly prosperous—(llear, hear)—while, at the seine time, in the midst of convulsions abroad, there had been a period of remarka ble political tranquillity and contentment at horne.—(Hear, hear.) He did not deny that there existed what he trusted would be emporary distress among the owners and occupiers of land; but periods of distress quite as s e vere had occurred at leas t , three times since 1815, under the system of protection. - 7 (Hear, hear.) Indeed, there existed before the late change in the corn-laws many symptoms which went to show that, even had that alteration not taken place, see vere distress was likely to be experienced, because there, was a transition going on in the manner in which land was cultivated in this country that could not hut produce distress and suffering, though greatly tending to the ultimate prosperity of those connected with agriculture:, —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) bad stated that he was prepared to support the repea l of the windo w - tax, b ut he had not said that he would agree to the reduction of the timber duties, or the duties on coffee. If, however, he supported the reduction of those duties, it was qu i te clear the p Hon. Gentleman had not one penny to spend for the special relief of the agricul tural interest.—(l/ear, hear.) He would not now enter upon a consideration of the coffee or timber duties, but would simplx, remark that the remission of the timber duty hwould greats i d e n a o l o a f Small e de Thos question before the House was, whether they would gc; into Committee to enable his Right Hon. Friend to pro;' pose the substitution of a house-tax for the window-tax: The country was looking with great anxiety for the set- . tlement of the financial arrangements proposed by the Government, and therefore he hoped that they would not, at the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Buckingham shire, enter on the present cccasion into a discussion of those large considerations that were connected with the general condition of tile agricultural interest. "Suffi cient for the day is the Budget thereof."—(Great laughter.) lie hoped, now that the Budget was fairly before the House, they would proceed to dispose of it as speedily as the rules of the House would admit, being p.?rfectly satisfied in his own mind that the proposal of the Government was one satisfactory to the country at large.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GLADSTONE said there were now two plans I before them, between which they had to choose. There LONDON, was the plan of the Right Hen. Gentlemen the Chen cellor of the Exchequer and that of the Hou. Menthe:- for Buckinghameldrz, which latter appeared to him vague and shadowy. Regarding those two pleas, he stood ia the unfortunate predicament of not being per fectly satisfied with either.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped that, in this difficulty, they would hear the reasons he had to assign why, not being satisfied with either plan, he should make an election between them, and vote in favour of one as productive of less evil. When, last year, the question of the local burthens which pressed upon the agricultural class was brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman, he was of opinion that was a question which should not be placed out of consideration in connexion with the change which had taken place in their oommer (dal policy. At that time it appeared that the leaders of the party with which the Hon. Gentleman was con nected so completely despaired of a return to protection, that they wore prepared to acquiesce in the policy which was then adopted; nor did it appear in the plan then brought forward that to restore protection was one of its objects. He could not now entertain the same expectation. The question of affording relief to the local burthens, if it was proposed as a measure of obtaining the acquiescence of the agricultural interest to the change which had been effected, ho would say now as he hid declared last year, if it were the means of producing peace and harmony, he was willing to entertain it, irrespective of the application of any surplus whatever. The question then was, whether they were going to relieve the local burthens of a class which had enjoyed peculiar privileges, at the expense of the rest of the commuuity.—(Hear, hear.) He could not now take that view of the subject, because it had been distinctly declared by the Honourable Gentleman's party, if they came into power, it was their intention to revert to protection in the shape of a duty on corn. They DO Al sought to take an issue on that question, by an appeal to the country. He did not complain of that determination. If they thought the withdrawal of protective duties was a measure, which to the agricultural class was for them attended with ruin, and that its reversal would be an act of justice, he would at once say, let it be brought to an issue ; let the opinion of the country be pronounced upon it, and the question be finally settled.—(Hear, hear.) He could not now entertain the question of local burthens-- (Hear, hear)—before he could entertain that question he must know what they were going to do with protection. (Cheers.) He objected to the Budget of the Govern ment, and he was not better sadsfied with that of the Member for Buckinghamshire. He was prepared to ex press his approval of the principles laid down in the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of , the Exchequer, in which he argued the advantage of remitting taxes which pressed upon articles of consump tion and industry. He thought nothing could be more just than the demonstration he gave of the effects of such :_reductions. What. he complained of was, that these f irrinciples were applied upon a scale so narrow.—(Hear, theme) In 18,42 r, when the income-tax was first proposed, :there was concurrent-with that measure a reduction of 'one million and a half of the taxation upon articles of Consumption and raw materials. In 1845, when it was 'renewed, there was again a reduction of three millions; and in 1848 there were special circumstances which formed an exception; and now, in 1851, they were in vited to grant a ienewal of the income-tax, with a re duction of not more than between four and five hundred thousand pounds upon articles of that description, which were coffee and timber, which were reduced upon the principle of relief upon articles of consumption and in dustry. That was one objection which he en tertained to the plan of the Government. His objec tion did notarise on account of the window-tax. He did not object to the removal of that tax, because it was bad in its kind. It was, is fact, a house duty in respect of windows, and he considered that a bad tax.—(Haar, hear.) He considered a house tax in respect of value a good tax, because contingencies might arise when they would require to draw largely from the fountain of a house-tax. With regard to the income-tax, one or other of two alternatives must take place. They must either adjust the schedules applicable to personal incomes, , and those dependent on individual exertion, or the tax must altogether fall. Mr. Pitt, when he introduced an income•tax, and afterwards Sir R. Peel, were of opinion that the inequalities of the tax could not be removed. If they came to the decision that this tax must either be submitted to an adjustment to meet these inequalities, or that it must fall, and if they, at the same time, acted upon the judgment of these two great authorities, that inequalities were inseparable from the imposition of income-tax, and that the tax must consequently fail, how, he would ask, were they to fill up the void which its failure would occasion?— (Hear, hear.) How could they bear so large a loss of revenue unless they were in a position to draw a great deal from the householders by the imposition of an ad ditional house-duty ? He would gladly take exception to the plan of the Goeernment. His great objection to that plan was on account of the exemptions in the house• duty which it gave in particular classes of houses. In Committee be would propose that many of those houses which were proposed to be exempted should be included, and made liable to the duty. He saw the principal objection to be in not giving extension to the house-tax. Out of the 3,500,000 houses in the country there re mained exempt from the duty 3,100,000 houses. The Right lion. Gentleman stated that this was a tax upon property, and it was so described by Mr. Mill, who spoke of it in that sense. The house-duty would be equal to two-fifths of what was received from the win dow-tax. The result was, that in erne of emergency they could not extend it in consequence of these exemp tions, and it would, therefore, for the purposes of addi tional revenue, bo unavailable. If they limited the tax to houses of 201. and upwards, exempting those under 201., they must be prepared to regard that arrangement as a permanent exemption fixed by law, which they Would find it impossible to revoke. He had a great ob jection to the plan in this point of view , and would be glad to see it rejected, even with the loss of the remission of the window duty. He must, however, in this case, choose between the Budget of the Right Honourable Baronet and the Honourable Member for Buckingham shire. If ho understood the Honourable Gentleman, and if he was wrong he hoped he would correct him, ho accepted the Government plan as regarded the window duty. In that case his objections to the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman applied equally to that of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), because he disposed of the surplus in this way. The surplus is 1,900,0001., - of which 1,150,000/. is for the window-duty. Then there was 550,0001. for the salaries of the officers of the Poor-law Board, and 160,0001. for the payment of the poor officers of Ireland, which would make a total of 1,860,000/. That was the Budget of the Hon. Gentle man. [An Hon. Gentleman suggested the lunatic asy lums.] There is no room for tttem.—(Laughter.) He could not consent to a renewal of an income-tax upon that plan. The principle upon which they ought to consent to the re-imposition of the ineome tax was upon a reduction of the duty on articles of consumption and raw materials, and his objection to the plan of the Go vernment was, that this principle was confined within such narrow limits. He must declare his preference to the plan proposed by the Government. If they adopted the plan of the Hon. Member for Bucking hamshire, they should for the first time vote for the income-tax without a compensation of that kind consis tent with the commercial policy which was vital to the prosperity of the country.—(Cheers.) Mr. STAFFORD said ho heard the speech of the Fight Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down with regret, but without surprise, considering the position he occupied in connexion with his party. He thought the course he might have pursued was to afford relief to the agricultural class, and keep himself free to'cleal with the question of protection as he thought fit; but he would ask, was the course he now adopted the way to do jus tice to the agricultural interest? He held - out no hopes fdr the future. LTe said two great authorities had de clared that the inequalities of the income-tax were in evitable, and added that there should not be an income tax without a reduction of duties on articles of consump tion and raw materials. This plan was a balance of one injustice against another.—(Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Member wanted any reason for bringing forward his re solution, it was afforded by the speech of the Right lion. Gentleman the Member for Taunton. Ile praised the Government plan on the ground of the remission of the Window-tax to the farmers, who, however, he would find, would not appreciate it. He said the Hon. Member for i3uckingharrishire meant to impose a duty on corn, and then went through all. the formulas against it with the fluency which constant speaking on an exhausted sub jset facilitated. With regard to Ireland, which en tirely depended upon its real property, they had no reason to be gratified with the sudden changes they had made. The agricultural interest was suffering, and it was vain for the Government to put words expresaivo of that fact in the Queen's Speech, hoping that those sufferings were transitory, but adducing no reason for any amelioration of their condition.. The present sys tem appears to a large class of the country to be simply class legislation. It was a pure insult to - this class to to carryout this system. The exemptions, which the GovernMent had made 'in, reference to taxa-, tion bad afforded a precedent for 'the motion one had been made. The. Government had relieved class from the effects of an inquisitorial . tax, and they had justified the continuance of the income-tax; to.' relieve the pressure of, other taxes on the people„ Now;, the motion befoie the House did not go so far as tercall upon the House to relieve the distress existing ntsiongst the agricultural classes ; it only asked them to inquire into the cause of the distress. Nor, he would venture to assume that they would do this act of justice to the farmers. Now, let them look'. at the conse quences of this neglect of the claims of the farmers to their sympathy and consideration. The farmers might be induced to got men from amongst themselves to represent their interests in that House, whom they might pledge to reduce taxation at all hazards. Was it not, therefore, unwise to goad men into such a state as to jeopardise the honour and credit of the country? They might talk as they pleased about the advantages to the great body of the people of IoW prices. The feel ing in the minds of the farmers was, that low prices meant clear money. Well, it' by the continuance of this policy, and by their refusal to listen to the oldies of the farmers for relief, they induced the agricultural classes to adopt a course of policy such as that to which he had adverted, would that be the time for them to endeavour to come to a settlement upon the question now at issue between them? If they brought the farmer into a state tvbich would make him despair of success, and if in con h iequerce he, either in hise own person or through the agency of others, adopted a cours e which would de. rciveeretdhiet,Gwoovuerldnmthenist be of a thestiarotewecrfotfhliinpghsolwd ill ic g h th gentle e pub m in that House, anxious to sustain the honour and ;haracter of the country, would be pleased to see?— Hear.) It was true they might defeat the efforts of Itie farmers, but this, instead of making them weak or powerless, would make them strong for the purpose of ,shouour.—( Hear.) Mr- ALCOCK had listened with great interest to the !marks of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire on ie subject of the malt-tax. Last year the lionoprable EVENING, 'SATURDAY Gentl,:enrin voted for the repeal-of that tax, and ob served, that pebEc etedit.tiyast he at a low ebb if it could not afford to lose 5,500,000/. of money. Weil, on a subseciar.qa oecsAon the Honourable Gentleman hal expressed his *willingness to dispense with the in come-tax, amounting to 5,500,000/. more. Here wa once 11,000,0001. sttuck off the royenue. He did not consfler the Hon. Gentleman to be consistent in sup porting these two propositions, besides which, in doing so, the Hon. Gentlouati was altogether at variance with Lord Stanley and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem ber for Stamford, win, as cautious, wary, and practical men, had not al:owe! theMselves to be pledged to aciy such propositions. lie should vote against the resolu tions of the lion. Gentlomul, not because he had no sympathy for the egicultural interest, but because he would not be the folbwer of such a leader. _ Mr. J. SANDARSdid not belies; that the agricultu ral interest was unduy taxed, and he therefore felt it his duty to oppose tin proposition of the Hon. Member , for Buckinghamshire. But his chief reason for opposing the motion was the fear he entertained that, if such a measure were carried it would strengthen the Pro tectionist party in that Muse, and enable them to main tain their principle of protection at least by keeping it as an open question. H) entertained a further objection to the motion on financialgreunds. He believed that if the income-tax were reentered a.great deficit in the revenue would occur, and the country would be placed in aperil ous position. He world deplore the success of the motion, because he say in it the first step towards the resumption of class tolicy, which would have the effect of lowering the aristocracy in the eyes of the people. Lord JOHN MANNERS wished, with the permission of the House, to recall attention to the immediate sub ject of the motion brought forward by the Hon. Gentle man the Member fcr Buckiaghamshire: Ministers fully admitted the distress of the suffering agricultural interest, but while they did so they took no steps what• ever towards affording relief. The question was simply this—would the House of Commons vote that justice should be refused to an interest of the country that was suffering? The Government, speaking by the President of the Board of Trade, said that it would not assent to the measure of justice or mitigation of re lief, and the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern ment, following up the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, told that suffering interest that they should look for relief to the closing paragraph in the Queen's Speech. The Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had over and over again declared that the agricultural interest must look for relief to the continued prosperity of the manufacturing interest. Now, for the purposes of debate, ho (Lord J. Manners) had admitted the ex istence of that commercial prosperity, although the Hon. Member for the West Riding had found it convenient to qualify the statement. When they were asked to look for relief to that prosperity, they should assure them selves that it was placed on a firm foundation, and wits likely to continue. He could not bring his mind to be lieve that prosperity, however great it might be at the present moment, was so based; and even if it were so, it would take an immense amount of proof to esta blish the fact of lii reacting favourably on English rather than on foreign agriculture. The Circulars of Mr. Littledale, of Liverpool, showed that the country was not in so prosperous a condition as some people supposed. The trade report, which appeared in the Times of that morning, corroborated the fact so far as Manchester was concerned. These were the words of the report:—" On Thursday the downward tendency was less marked, aed greater steadiness of prices pre vailed, but the extent of transactions was small, and buyers appeared to be confining their operations to the narrowest limits. Many of the private letters by the list overland India mail are said to have been very dispiriting, and scarcely reconcileable with the encourag ing tone of the accounts by the previous mail. Under these circumstances some of the export houses in that trade have closed their purchases for the present, or operate with much caution. In the Levant trade accounts continue to come of a harassing character; not only do the markets appetrito be abundantly stocked with prints, which are almost unsaleable at any price, but plain cloths and yarns are depressed in price, and unremunerative; still exporters in this market are doing quite as much here to-day as they have done for some time past. In the home trade business continues very languid, not withstanding the fineness of the weather, and an opinion is freely put forth in some Quarters, though not generally acquiesced in, that it is in a great degree attributable to the steadiness with which the working classes are hoard ing their savings to visit the Great Exhibition. In our account of last Saturday's market it was stated that the increased exports of cotton manufactures to India and China were 1.000,0001b5. of yarn, and 39,000,000 yards of cloth. It should have been that the total increase of exports in the last three months, as compared with the same period last year, was to that amount in yarn. The increase in yarn was rather over that to India (1,367,0001b5.), butlis counterbalanced to some extent by a falling off to other ports. The increase in the exports of calicoes is 39,000,000 yards, of which 14,500,000 nearly aro to India, and 10,500,000 to China." With these practical opinions before him, he could not convince himself that the manufacturing interest was in the prosperous condition which the Free-traders affected. Under all these circumstances the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire came forward and said, " admitting that distress, and having a surplus to dispose of, apply it in mitigation of that distress." Ile did not ask for an appropriation of the money for the benefit of the land owners. Let the Government not rest secure in the be lief that the pressure of this distress had not extended, and would not extend to the labouring classes. A report which he held in his hand, and which had been published that morning at Spalding, showed the extent of distress, and the increase of crime, which now prevailed in South Lincolnshire. In the midland counties, with which be was connected, he knew that crime had largely in creased from the want of employment. Mr. Justice Cresswell, in his recent charge to the grand jury, at Liverpool, said he was totally unable to account for the large increase of crime in that district which the calen dar exhibited, and the presentment of the Suffolk grand jury, which was of the same melancholy character, di rectly attributed it to the want of employment, and the inability of landlord; to give it in consequence of recent legislation. If it were true, therefore, that this pressure had not yet reached the agricultural population gene rally, these, at least, were tacts which the Government would do well to inquire into. It might be a matter of indifference to Hon. Gentlemen sitting opposite that the owners and occupiers of land should sink under the load of difficulties that oppressed them, or that the old an cestral houses of England's gentry should find them selves obliged to close their doors against the claims of hospitality; hut let them beware hoty they tampered with the employment, how they diminished the wages, and how they curtailed the comforts- of the peasantry of England and Ireland. Let them pause before they enlarged the injury that had been done, and show to this suffering interest that they were willing, at least, to endeavour to avert the ruin, which, in his conscience, he believed to be impending.—(Rear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT remarked that Hon. Gentlemen oppo site did not seem to think it was judicious to discuss the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They agreed that it was applicable to the country, and that it must pass that House.—(Hear.) He considered that the speeches that had been made by the Hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. A. Stafford) and the Noble Lord who had just sat down, must do great damage to their leader.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord J. Russell.) He was convinced the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) was of opinion that any project of a return to protection was the merest delusion. That Hon. Gentleman knew that so long as Members of his party would have protectien they were destined to sit oa .the shady side of that House, and that they never would cross the table to the Ministerial benches—(Hear)—and accordingly the . Hop. Gentleman took his tone in this discussion, and avoided protection as a thing that was irrevocably and finally settled.—(Hear, hear, and cries o f " No, no.") The lion. Gendeman made this proposition for the benefit of the agricultural interest. The labourers were once " the agricultural interest," but now they were left out.—(Criss of " No, no.") The agricultural interest now consisted of the owners and Occupiers of land, and it was said they had a special cl a i m t o a spe cial relief. They assumed that they were suffering throughout the United Kingdom ; but they brought no proof that the owners or occupiers of land were suffer ing much, or at all.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") He thought that they had failed in showing that they bad an y spe cial claim for relief, even if they were suffering. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, with that want of caution which not unfrequently distinguished hie) —(Cheers, and laughter)—had admitted the distress in a paragraph in the Queen's Speech, which was an invi tation to the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire to' baits in the first week of the session a discussion on the sub ject—(Hear)—and the Chaticellorof the Exchequer had committed another blunder—(Laughter) —when he brought forward a proposal as. applicable to the agricul turists, and which, having once 'brought forward, he ought to have adhered to.--(llesta) He was prepared to dispute half the case—that oWnera - of land were stiff:r ing distress—or had the; slightest ground whatever to come to the House for reliefe It Was staled the bther .night that there had been a fail of rent in Herefordshire of 25 per cent., bat that'could not bestrue generally, as the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire had placed the reduction at about ton pealeena.. He : did not belieVe the average reduction was ten percont. lie believed the re duction was only a temporary remission of rent, such as had been usual with landlords on,. special occasions. He believed the reduction of rent bad been very small, and nothing in comparison to teat loss which owners of other kinds of property were constantly sustaining throughout the kingdom. Ile would ask w h a t' c l ass escaped so completely unscathed in time of commercial disaster as the landowners? It was stated at Ayleabury that land only returned . 2i per cent. Why, that was proof of its more than, ordinary security. The Hoe, Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) had stated that though 6,000,0001. had been lost 10 the landowners from the re duction of rent, yet that this reduction formed no' suffi • cient ground for appealing t o . that House. Thi s w a s quite different to the dectribel usually held i n t ha t House.—(Hear.) But if the 'Working classes generally were benefited by the loss ofstaat 6,000,0001. which t h e landowners ought never to have enjoyed--(Hear)--that was a sufficient recompenspes-(llear.) He would' take the consumers belonging to the agricultural interest, and ho asserted they were not suffering to any extent which entitled them to be considered a Buff ring class. He came then to the occupiers of land, sad he was not disposed to deny that they might suffer from the temporary low price of produce. Bat it must be recollected that suffer ing was not a new thing. ft was a com mon mala d y this suffering; but there was nothing whatever to show that the suffering arose from; the legislation of that House. He wished to strip the question from:dela sion.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) did not wish to go back to protection. Did Hon. Members opposite agree to that?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member (Mr. Disraeli) did not wish to relieve agriculturists by raisieg the price of corn. His propo sition was to trausfer the burdens on certain descriptions APRIL of property to the Consolidated Fund, stud to place them lon the people generally. Now, with respect to the al -1 le,ged burden o f th o p oor - rate h e wou ld sta t e a f ew facts. He had a return from 1836 to 1812, showing how poor rate was levied on laud, houses, and other property; and he only wished it came down to 1851, as he was satis fied it would be the best answer to the statemept that land was too heavily burdened. In 1826, according to the rental, the poor-law burden on lend was 69 per cent.; in 1833 it was 63 per cent.; in 1841 it paid 52 per cent. So that in fifteen years the amount fell from 69 to 52 per cent.—from two-thirds to one-half; and if he had the returns up to 1850, he believed the fall would be found to have beea in the same ratio, and that laad did not now pay more than 40 par cent. The Hon. Member for Westbury said 45 per cent., but he believed it was 40 par cent. The amount of the po w-rates in 1833 was 8,600,000/. Ia 1842 it had fallen to 6,500,0001.; and in 1850 to 5,395,0001. Now within the last eight years, during which time that new course of commer cial legislation—free trade—had been practised, the poor -rates had fallen about 1,300,000/. He had made a calculation of the poor-rate paid by the land, which, in round numbers, he would take at 5,500,0001. in 1826, when the amount paid was 69 per cant. The amount paid in 1850 he took at 40 per cent., and, therefore, the sum now paid was not more thon about 2,158,000/. So if they went back to 1833 they would find the landed interest paid more than double the amount they paid now. Then the railways paid 300,0001. in poor-rates to parishes to which they never contributed a pauper, and, houses were springing up everywhere which were taxed to the poor rates. But he came to the alleged distress of the farmer. The imposition of taxes on the necessaries of life of the working classes would not benefit or relieve the farmer. Reductions had been made from time to time, but those reductions had all gone to enhance rent. The Right Hon. Gentleman, if he came into power, would advocate that line of policy which would end in raising rents.— (Hear, hear.) Farmers were the victims of a vicious system. But that vicious system was of the creation of Hon. Gentlemen opposite. They had made the farmers dependent on them up to the year 1846. As a cotton maufacturer, he should be sorry to entrust bis interests to the country party or to political parties. The evil of farmers was that they held too much land. If they took more land than they could find capital to cultivate they were on the road to ruin, just the same as the landowner who bought more land than he could pay for merely to augment his political power.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the game laws—(Cries of " Question") e -they were as pertinent to the question as the redactions of poor-rates and other propositions. It was proved before the Committee that the injury done by game to the farmers was more than the whole amount of their local taxation—(Oh.) The injury done by gentlemen in sporting over the farmer's land was immense, and if the law did not induce them to give up their sport, at least other reasons ought to have effect on them.—(Hear, hear.) It was the natural effect of passing from a vici ous system of forty year,' standing to a better system, that suffering should prevail. But tenant-farmers had it various periods sustained suffering, and if they ex rected to better their condition, it must be by the reduc ton of rent, the application of more capital, and the adoption of a better system of oultivatioe. The Noble Lord the Member for Colchester had alluded to the in crease that hat taken place in crime. Now, he would give the Noble Lord the number of persons taken into custody in Manchester since the year 1842, and the Noble Lord would see that crime had not increased in that fart of England. The number of persons taken into eastody in Manchester in 1842 were ... ••• ... 13,801 1844 ... ... 10,700 1846 ... ... 7,600 1848 7,200 1849 ... 4 . 600 1350 ... 4,578 —(Hear, hear.) A similar return for the whole of Eng land and Wales would show that the committals had diminisaed from 31,000 in 1842, to 27,000 in 1849, not• withsi aiding the increase that had taken place in the population.—(Hear, hear.) The proposal brought for ward by the Hon. Member for Bucks would only serve to delude —not the owners of land in that House, for they understood these tricks—but the farmers of the country.—(oh:) Ho believed that one great result of the repea. of the corn-laws would be that the farmers would no longer regard themselves as a separate class, having stecial claims on the House of Commons to at tend to their interests. The sooner the farmers made themselves independent of their landlords, so far as the feudal syeem was concerned, the sooner they could make a lefrgain with their landlords in the Game way that they nude a bargain with their grocer, the sooner would the?: get out of their difficulties. The only way to relieve agricultural distress was for the farmers to exercise those virtues and talents by which the rest of heir countrymen prospered. If they did that he believed that, with the means of corn municatior, and with the markets they possessed, not only the agricultural, but also the manufacturing in terest, world be found to triumph. Mr. REYNOLDS said, the Hon. Gentleman had in formed tin House that the motion of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire was intended to delude the House, and delude the farmer. He regretted ho did not include a certain mrtion of that House, and himself also— (Laughter—as he was about to vote for it.—(Hear and laughter.) He was particularly anxious to state the ground upm which he felt it his duty to record that vote. He heard his Hon. Friend say that there was a protection required; and he agreed with him that if the propositim of the Hon. Member for Backinghamshire could be construed, either directly or indirectly, to mean proteetim, he would be found voting against him. If it could an construed to mean an attempt to raise the price of bread, he would be found voting against him. But whet was the motion ? That in the financial ar rangernants for the year due regard should be paid to the interest cf land. In his proposition there was not a word about protection—(Hear)—but it occurred to him that it bore this construction, that as there was a sur plus 0f2,000,000/., there was a reasonable struggle be tween the two interests as to which would have the larger relief. Now, paesieg from England, he would cross tie Irish Channel, where there was an island con taining 3.000,000 of inhabitants. The eight millions in Ire land delved their support chiefly from agricultural pur suits, aid Ireland ought not to be blotted out of the map. Let them consider what the agriculturists had to deal with. Within the last year 1,500,000 quarters of wheat had arrived from France—more than one-half of it in flour—and within the last two months a cargo of fl err had arrived in Dublin, also from France, and he had it on the best information that not more than a week had elapse' since it had been taken from the mill. In this country the capital invested in flour mills would not re alise ono-fourth of the original investment. He defied any honest man to prove that free trade bad conferred any benefit on Ireland. He (Mr. Reynolds) was a gree tradet—(A laugh)—but he was not for one-sided reci procity. They had given Ireland the poor-law, and ho had ro doubt they had done so with the best intention, but that law cost the landlords of Ireland two millions. —(Hear, bear.) And then there was the grand jury teas on laud alone to the amount o ‘ f 1,300,000/. per annum, and which was devoted to the support of gaols, hospitals, and lunatic asylums. Iu addition to these burthons, the tithes hat been ceuverted into a rent charge, and they had made the Church the owner of the fee, and not the landlord. lie recollected that a charge had been brought against himself and other Irish Members for voting as they did on the 14th of last month, and it had lesea said what an extraordinary set of fel lows these Irish Members are to vote as they did.— (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Twenty Irish Members voted in the minority, some voted the other way, and some got tickets of leave.—(Laughter.) Ho would toll them what happened to some of these Members. Their constituents read their votes and their speeches, for somehow these matters became known.—(Laughter.) Meetings were held, and votes of censure were passed on some of them [An HON. MEMBER—Is that all?] No, it is not all: there was something more.--(Laughter.) Votes of censure, as he had said, were passed on 601113 of them, and absolution was given to others on the terms that they should go and sin no more.—(Laughter.) Pro tection was the cry, but ho was not to be gulled by that cry. The time of delusion for Ireland had gone by. The people of Ireland road the votes and the speeches of their representatives, and he hoped they would read his. —(Hear, and laughter.) It was not protection that was meant by the present motion—it was a scramble for the booty, and that the agricultural interest should get a share. —(Loud cries of "Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) * It was said that the object of the motion was, to put out one Ministry and to put in another; but even at that risk he (Mr. Reynolds) would give his vote for the motion.—(Hear, hear.) He came into that House to support the Noble Lord; but, if the Noble Lord had deserted his principles, ho (sir. Reynolds) had not de serted his.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He might be told that this vote would not decide the fate of the Minister, but he could not help that. It mattered little to Ireland who held the helm of the State, provided the Government attends d to the wants of the people.—(Hear, hear.) It mattered little to him whether the Noble Lord or the Right Hon Baronet (the Member forßipon) —(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter)or the _Noble Lord whose na me had been so notorious 'in con nexion with protection, held the reins of power. land wanted measures and not men. They had get rid of the sectarian and p o litical prejudices whiehhh a . so their long been the bane of the country.. ;Upon One . p parties were bound up together, and that it was to hi do .point bud best to raise Ireland from the position colleagues ot he a the eislation attention h of had placed Nobleher L . Lord d e a a nd r, hear.) l ar Lt liini to c he fact, that they would have the majority or the Irish Members voting in favour of the motion theof Hon. (M. Disraeli).--(Cries r I).—(Cries of ‘ l , l o e Member fore o r h.,, a Bn and c , n o g . h ” te ) ti s a r h e lion. Member might cry Lat n ( o M xi r o . u l s ie to rr d ie i s v ) i . d — e, him remind the Government that fifty-threelrish Me m , hers voted in favour of the motion of the " No," but one could not speak for 150 Members. Right Hoe, and be would not longe r tres p ass on their attention. C G r e i n e t s l eomf ie i h v e i d b e f . 7 er for Members Stamfordwere They were about to enter upon the Easter recess. The Irish Members were on the eve of returning to Ire land, and if he (Mr. Reynolds) should be asked his opinion as to the manner in which Ireland had been treated by her Majesty's Ministers, he should feel it his duty to give them the'worst possible character.—(ole) The CHANCI?,LLOR, of the EXCHEQUER thought the lion. Gentleman had no need to occupy so much time in telling the House his reasons for votiug against the Government. It was not many nights since he had informed the house that whatever were the principles of the Government he should oppose them.—(Hear.) They all knew the cause. But though the Government might regret the loss of the lion. Gentleman's support, they could not on his account compromise their principles. H e (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should not, there fore, attempt to reconcile the termer votes of the Hon. Gentleman with his recent votes, nor to explain the dif ference between his previous speeches in favour of free trade and his present speech in favour of protection.— 12, 1851. (:Tear.) Neither should he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) occupy the House fur any time, as he had done so only very recently. He would merely observe to the Noble Lord the Member for Colchester that he ought not to give creience to the gessipping stories ho might hear; and with respaet to the Hon. Member for Beckre he should not follow him into all the facts of his speech, but confine his observations to the details of the motion. Like his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Labeuchere), be was a good deal puzzled by the lion. Gentleman's motion. As it originally stood it had some sense, but now it had none. The Hon. Gen tleman declared himself favourable to a repeal of the window tax; but on the face of such a declaration now ho had taken the extraordinary course of moving an atnentimeat on the motion for going into Committee to repeal it. The Hon. Gentleman had, it is true, talked of some indefinite relief; hut he had made out n o thi ng clear, except that in which he had had the assistance of the Right Hon. Gentleman near him. The purpose of the amendment was to de!eat the repeal of the window tax, because if it was carried the motion for the repeal of that tax would be lost. If the Hon. Gentleman sup ported, as he said he did, the proposition of the Govern ment, ho should n o t have moved his amendment. The Hon. Gentleman said the proposals of the Government gave no relief to agriculture. Did country gentlemen, however, pay no window-tax? Did tenant-farmers use timber—(Hear)—or live in houses which paid window tax? If they did, then, would they not get relief to tko same extent as the rest of the community?—(hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman said that the pro posals made to repeal the duty on seeds, and to take a portion of the expense of lunatic asylums by the Govern ment, was received with silence. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) begged to say that it was, on the contrary, received by the Hon. Members for Peterbo rough and North Warwickshire with opposition. Yet the former was the single one paid by the occupying tenant. If, therefore, the tenant-fsrreers complained hereafter that they did not get their seeds as cheap as they might have got them, it was to the owners of the land and not to the Government, they owed it to.—(Cries of " Oh," and Hear.) When he (the Chancellor of the Exono quer), however, withdrew these propositions, he was prepared to prove that he gave the aerictiltaral interest under his new plans far more than he withheld from them. What siegle tax, except perhaps the income-tax, pressed so heavily upon the agricultural interest as the window-tax; and was its reduction, therefore, nothing ? The amount of relief to the agricultural interest, through the relief of the charge for lunatics and the duty on seeds, amounted to little more than a farthing in the pound on the rating of that interest; but, besides a house tax being a more just and equal tax, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could show that the repeal of the window-tax gave an amount of relief that born nO pro portion to this amount. Taking eight counties in Eng land, of which two were manufacturing counties, with a large town-population, and six purely agricultural, the result of the remission of taxation was es follows : . . Lancashire paid 1 the amount of the present window-tax. Yorkshire If ), Hampshire 9 -3 ), .1 Bedfordshire )9 51 Essex :1 Lincolnshire ... t 31 99 Norfolk Suffolk The relief to the last six was, therefore, much greater than that to the first two; and it could not consequently be said that the agricultural interest in those counties did not get relief, at least in the same proportion as the town population in the manufacturing counties. The whole amount that had been proposed to be taken on the Consolidated Fund for tho support of lunatic asylums was 150,0001.; but the remission of the window-tax on the six last named agricultural counties alone was equal to 70,000/., or one-half of the whole sum in question. It was true he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did withdraw what he proposed originally to give; but it was equally true that he had not been unmindful or negligent of the interests of agriculture. The Noble Lord the Member for Colchester had said the proposi tion of the Government had no regard for the peasantry of England. But the fact was the other way, for the peasantry were never so well off as now.—(Hear, hear.) The reduction in prices had been, in these respects, greater than the reduction in wages. Prices had, in some cases, fallen one-half; would any Hon. Gentleman say wages had fallen in the same proportion? Mr. BOOKER said they had in the iron districts. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said these were not agricultural districts, to which alone he he had alluded. The Hon. Member for Busks had put into his mouth an argument he had nev er use d. Th e Hon. Member for Sraford had warned them against rural demagogues. Now, such persons as would go to tenants—incite them to pay no rent—and recommend them to mount their horses and ride into Manchester, these he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) held in as much abhorrence as the Honourable Member himself. But the policy which Honourable Gentlemen opposite pursued and advocated might encourage rural orators to do something in another sense. He could not help thinking, notwithstanding that they so carefully con cealed it, that the main object of the Hon. Members who supported the present motion was the establishment of the ss. duty on corn. With respect to the window tax, Lion. Gentlemen said he should have carried the tax lower. Now there was no doubt but that he might have so arranged the tax as to bring some 25,000 or 30,000 more houses under its operation; but in so doing he would not hare realized a greater revenue than 40,0001., and for such an amount as that he did not wish to hazard the success and popularity of the entire pro position by bringing such a large number of persons under taxation for the first time.—(Hear, hear.) Ho saw no reason to doubt that the House was in favour of his proposal, and if they agreed with him they would vote against the motion of the Hon. Member for Buck inghamshire. Let no one fancy they could agree in opinion with the Hon. Member for Bucks and with him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) also.—(Hear, and cries of " Divide.") Mr. W. MILES said, the Chancellor of the Exche quer having thrown overboard the owners and occupiers of land, now sought to reconcile his total neglect of that class of persons, whom he stated to be in a condition of great distress. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that, although the owners and occupiers of land were in a state of distress, the labourers were not so, for that they had every article of necessity at only one-half the price it used to be. Then, he would ask, was the labourer's malt, his tea, his coffee, his rent, less by one-half than formerly.—(Bear, hear, and loud cries of " Divide.") The Right don. Gentleman said that the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire had a design for the re-imposi tion of a duty on corn behind his present motion.— (Loud cries of "Divide, divide.") Such was not the case. He had not heard one word lealing to such a conclusion in the speech of the Hon. Gentleman or any one who supported him. They ought to consider well to what they might drive the agricultural interest. If they refused that interest justice, nothing was left them but to try, not the feeling of the House, but the sense of the country. They would endeavour to go back to the system which was believed to ba thoroughly expired.— (Cries of "Divide." The Hon. Member here went into various statistical details (which were very impatiently received by the House), proving the depreciation of landed property and produce, and the consequent dis tress prevailing, and concluded by announcing his inten tion of supporting the motion of his Hon. Friend. Mr. NEWDEGATE and ether Hon. Members, amongst whom was we believe Sir R. Peel, rose together. There were cries of " Divide, divide," and e Peel, Peel." The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to address the House amid much noise and confusion, but was totally unheard in the gallery. Ile was understood to say he considered the remedies proposed for the agricultural classes as totally insignificant in amount, and entirely dispropor tioned to the wants of the case.—(Cries of " Divide.") The Hon. Gentleman having in vain attempted to make himself heard amidst the uproar that prevailed in the Howe, resumed his seat. Lord J. RUSSELL rose to say, that, as he thought it most desirable the House should divide that night, lie trusted, in order to enable them to come to a division, which could nut then be far off, that those Hon. Gentle' men who wished to address to the House their reasons for their vote would be listened to. Mr. NE WDEGATE again rose, amidst cries of " Spoke, spoke." All that ho had wished to state was, that ho had expressed a distinct opinion that, as the Right lion. Gentleman had proposed to remit or reduce taxation to the amount of 1,500,0001., and as one-eighth of that reduction would apply to the most distressed in terest in the country—the agricultural body—it was a vary insignificant equivalent for the distress of which they complained. lie also wished to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman had, on two occasions, unfairly endea voured to saddle him with the . onus of withd raw i ng his paltry tender of delayed justice. He had said nothing whatever with respect to the transfer of the cost of the paper lunatic asylums to the C onso li dated Fund being insignificant. Sir R. PEEL said, in order that no misconstruction might result from the conscientious vote he was pre pared to:give that night on the motion before the House, and being. unwilling to detain the House with any state ment of his views, however desirous he might be of doing so, if they were discussing any financial or com mercial scheme, with the view of introducing changes in _the free -trade policy of 1846 —(Elea.r, hear)—Yets as one of that class comprised under the denomi nation of owners and occupiers of land —that class whiCh was allowed to be suffering under great and unparalleled distress —that influential class from which greater and more enduring benefits flowed to the industry of the country and the poorer classes than from any other— certainly than from the paltry professions of certain po litical economists—as one of the country gentlemen of England, whose interests were not antagonistic to those of the poorer classes, but were rather indissolubly united with their permanent prosperity—as such ho felt that he could not give a silent vote on the present occasion, but state briefly that, Free-trader as he was and landed pro prietor also, he would give hi 3 vote in favour of a m easure which d ec l are d th a t, is any relaxation of taxation, some and occupiers should be paid to the claims of the owners occupiers of land.—(Hear, hear.) Lord NORREYS, whs spoke amidst great impatience, and continued cries for a division, opposed themeti on, and warned Hon. Members that every vMembe r ote given fa vour of the cleverly worded motion of the for Buckinghamshire was an indirect vote against the wiLhthreefeEr..xenchcee. cittioewr,hontf repeal of the window-tax. Sir W. JOLLIFFE explained had been said by the Chancellor of d tu u r e ar interest —re his having repudiated the boon trio agricultural the gri r u e , wee wrung from the la- to clover seeds—th would repudiate a boon which bour of the poor. After a few words In explanationE, from the CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQu Colonel SIBrefORP told the N o bl e Lord the Member for Oxfordshire (L ord Norre ys) that he should n e ver attempt to stand for t ha t county again. After the speech of that night the Noble Lord could no longer be con sidered as the farmers friend, • .:S . ~~ Lord J. RUSSELL aids be rore the debate closed he was anxious to toll the seer t eu of iho HouFe to the delusien which he thought had then practised upon the House and upon a great portion of the country by the repeated mod( ns of a similar nature which they had been called upon to discuss. The present motion. appe rently sho smallest of the sort, merely proposed, instead of going into Commitice to cored ler the question of the repeal of the window-tax, that in any reiiof to be granttd by the remission or adjustment of taxation, due regard should be paid to the distressed condition of . the owners and occupier s o f l an d i n t h e U n i te d Kings dom. Well, as if the Honourable Member for Buck iughamehire said, the window-tax was to be repealed, and the Honourable Gentleman assented to the Chan cellor of the Exchequer's proposition upon that subject, looking at the amount of surplus, it was quite clear that no effectual relief could be given by the remainder of that surplus to the owners and occupiers of land.--• (Cheers.) Then, if the question were taken as a general question, admitting what the lion. Gentleman had al leged as to the importance and the number of the landed interest in this country, he should say that, if it were possible to make any considerable remission of taxation, Parliament could not remit the duties upon windows, upon tea, or soap, or on any other of the chief articles of taxation, without at the same time giving largo relief to the owners and occupiers of land. So be should say to them upon this subject as upon all subjects which af fected the landed interest, let them not look for any ape teal legislation in their behalf—let them not look for a' measure which would either fix a particular price for corn, or to give them special exemptions from taxation, but look rather to measures of relief which, along with themselves, would affect the other classes of the commu nity; for if the prosperity of the community were secured they might depend upon it that that great and important interest would prosper along w i t h the rest of the Queen ' s subjects.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Somerset. shire said that be had heard no one declare in the course of this debate—he certainly had not heard from the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire—that protection was involved in this motion. And the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) said he believed that the Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire had no ia tention to restore the duties upon corn. Well, but if that were the case, why was it, when the simple minded yeomen and farmers who desired the restora tion of protection went to the Honourable Gentleman and other leaders of the patty opposite, and said to them, " You are continually bringing forward motions withvespect to local taxation ; but why do you not at once ask Parliament to give us protection ? "—how was it that the invariable answer was, "Although that is not the direct, it is the indirect object of our motion ; and you will find that if ever these motions are carried, the restoration of protection will follow."—(Hear, hear.) Here, then, he contended, was a delusion practised both upon the House of Commons and upon that portion of the community which still looked to the restoration of protection, and the re -imposition of duties upon corn.-- (Cheers.) Every one knew by the test of the motion of the lion. Member for Gloucestershire (Mr. Grant ley Berkeley) last year, that if a direct motion for the imposition of a duty upon corn were introduced in this House, it would be, as it had been on that occasion, re jected by a large majority, yet the debates and divisions upon such motions as the one now before the House were exhibited to the farmers as a test of the opinion of the British House of Commons. Ho said, then, that it would be more fair and honourable if, as the Honourable Member for Oxford had proposed, they said, " There are certain duties which affect us, the landed interest; give us relief with respect to these duties, and you shall not again hear a word about protection from us, and that great source of quarrel and dissension will for ever be dried up." Either let them say that,'or say fairly, W e stand boldly upon the question of protection. If protec tion is restored, we succeed; if protection is denied, we fail." —(Loud cheers.) Let them place the matter upon fair grounds like that. Let them not adopt these delu sive motions, which were unbecoming a great party in the State, but put the issue fairly and openly before the country at once.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL warmly condemned the rule of action—ho could not call it a principle or policy— which the Hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. J. Reynolds) had thought it his duty, before an assembly of British gentlemen, unblushingly to avow —that whatever course the Government might take, and whetherht was in accord ance with his own principles or not, he should vote against them.—(Laughter and cheers.) Let the Irish Roman Catholic Members recollect that nine out of ten of those lion. Ghntlemen who nu this side of the water had sup ported them in their resistance to the Ecclesiastical Titles Assumption Bill opposed the motion of,Mr. Disra eli to-night because they would not stultify themselves— because they were in favour of an adherence to principle, and would not be dragged through the mire of those who were ready, per fits et nefas, to oppose the Government. —(Cheers, and " Oh, oh.") He now rose merely to state that in the early part of the evening he was rather in doubt how ho should vote to-night; but he owned that he had been converted.—(Laughter.) His mind was now settled. The speech of the Hon. Member for Dub lin had settled it.—(Oh, oh, and laughter.) And he trusted the Members from Ireland would oppose the mo tion of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, which was meant simply to hoodwink the British public, and to excite expectations amongst the agriculturists which must surely be disappointed.—(Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) Mr. KEOGH (amidst crieslof " Divide" and constant interruptions) appealed to the House whether it lay with the lion. Member for Kerry to talk of Members of this House being "dragged through the mire." —(Laughter and cries of " Oh.") The „lion. Member shrugged his shoulders at the observation. He (Mr. Keogh) would not say that he enjoyed the " Pleasures of Hope"—(A laugh)—but surely he might be permitted to indulge the " Pleasures of Memory"—(Laughter)—and his memory, according to the Honourable Member himself, did not require that he should go so far back as to pain the recollection, for the Honourable Member had told the House that he had come down this evening intending to vote one way, and that he had determined on voting another. —(" No, no," from Mr. M. J. O'Connell.) Well, the lion. Member came down with a saving doubt in his mind respecting the vote ho should give, although in substance this identical question was discussed some six or seven weeks ago in the House.—(" Oh, oh," " Question," "Divide," and other marks of impatience.) The Hon. Member took a broad prospective view of all parties, and the result was that he who had come dawn in doubt was now not only per fectly satisfied in his own mind as to the vote he should give, but took upon himself to lecture those gentlemen who had not come down in doubt, but were quite satis fied in their minds as to the propriety of the vote they were about to give. He (Mr. Keogh) intended to record his vote in favour cf the motion of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, and was ready to defend that vote. A few nights ago he went into the same lobby with the ' Hon. Member for Kerry in support of the motion of the Hon. Member for Waterford (Sir H. W. Barron), who proposed that the House should go into Committee to consider the distressed state of the peoplo of Ireland. And what was the motion of Mr. Disraeli but that, in any remission of taxation that might be made, due regard should be paid to the distressed condition of the owners_ distress was existing it was impossible to deny,. and occupiers of land in the United Kingdom? and that they found it admitted in the Qneen :s h Sp h e is reasons e for Sir THOMAS ACLAND, e ivin Hon. Member for of the th G e overnment had ad mitteddis- tress,suffßeurithitghpfrreomwasasupporting the amendment Buckinghamshire, said the made by the friends of that the agric t u e l d tu a r l a l yet they resisted that class to obtain inquiry and class which union amongst the egricultur foundedwas founded e n la d ss re w li a e s t taligerenwatasno union of agricultural class iu principle, and which, beingai in principle, principle. the efforts and designs ,cohreseELL remembered the time when the o w f o a u a e s y s eu among ally s t succeed wo m Hon. Member (Mr. Keogh) was not so iedhot a Liberal Mr. J. 0 as be now professed to. The lion. Member for Dublin Reynolds) had thrown out two challenges. lie hhd that were it not for free -trade the rates for the sup port of the poor in Ireland would have lean double what they wore. He doeied that. lie had before been cen sured for a vote which ho had given in that House. but he teL that ho would always be i n a con di t i on to defen d his vote. With regerd to the amendment now before the II )use if , :anything could iuduce him to vote for that atnendeuent it would be the speech of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire. Mr. 11. GRATTAN did not rise to lecture the House, nor to receive " lectures," which, as far as he was con certed, passed unheeded as " the idle wind." But feel ing that the legislation of this House had ruined Ireland, and brought death and desolation on her people, hun dreds and thousands of whom, too, had been driven by it to fly to Am e ri ca , h e s h ou ld vote f or t h e amend m ent of the lion. Member for Buckinghamshire. The House then divided, when there appo o r o e u 3 For going into Committ e e... • • :4° 250 For Mr. Disraeli's motion • • 13 blejority for the Government This announcement was received w ith loud cheers by the Opposition. The motion for going Coma:late was then agreed into i to, and the House went into Committee. Lo Mr. DISRAELI asked the No ble n Mondar what business he proposed to proceed with ° d to Y. 9 Lord J. RUSSELL Pr°P°se take the resolution in respect to the window duties and house -tax, then to pro ceed with the coffee and timber-those s, and then to take the second reading o f the incone e .t ax. Mr. h E wEN asked whether it was the Noble Lord's intention to go on with a Coca na.ttee of Supply before Easter. SSELL said Lord J. Rlj he did intend to propose the C o mmittee of S u pp l y on Mond a y, b ut he was afraid the state of business would not permit him to do so. M r . DISRAELI hoped the Noble Lord would not as k the Rouse to read the income-tax a second time on Monday. Sir B. HALL thought that the Noble Lord should give them an opportunity of discussing the principle of the house-tax. He proposed taking the sense of the House upon it. Mr. HUME sa id th a t th e s i mp l e quest i on to be con sidered would be whether they would have the house tax or the window duties. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the pr o p osa l was to procee d w i t h th e window-tax, which l : was a house-tax assessed in a particular way.lt tax.He "a The propose to alter the mode of assessinga Hon. Baronet might, no doubt, it he pleased, propose to repeal both one and the other. Mr. HUME asked whether the motion of his Hon. Friend near him was not virtual l y one to continue the window duties? Mr. SPOONER sa id, it was too late to consider these matters then. 130 would, therefore, move that the Chairman report progress. . After a few words from H. GRATTAN and Sir B. HALL, Lord J. RUSS ELL said he had hoped that th e Committee would have assented to this resolution. As, , however, it appeared that some Hon. Gentlemen were I determined to stop the business, then he could not help it. ; `r . .; f~r. t / ' ' ~~ P: 1.