The Sun. — London, England, 1850-05-01 00:00:00

1.!....' -- higher no reason existed foil, the sal a a:ie s. th e ,: l vl49; itsp ov .„tcen than now. The truth IA as, , 1 s a ,.. , be to to . institute a correct companion b . to a salaries of the two periods. The salaries paid h Per sona at the former period were far in atnoa ..ev o ' rid what the Hon. Gentleman had any ilea (4. 4 itig to Chet cl one ef til e - 0 mode in which they were paid ;. au . th,, itbeigitriea_test improvements in the . public tier:via: wets . - ......4 of fees and the subititution of re;ol . ar . sa u la n r . i e e r s thetuold ertaitily by far than what was receiv, ,, et an : 1 11, .. to, but The old system had been pla ur ge ' fared the irregularities which took place ~ it tiheowaolwllieloadelrclefbeer reviv e d if undue reducLion..tw--k,0r:1..e. a statement made by . I ,s. Li ~ a le. ', . °f ace, at chief clerk of storey in the Nav)- t) 1784. It year, from 1763_ I PPeared a i staille ar P ; 4 o t f o l f oot. a th ~ roes the report of the Committee on fees, that .ar he received the salary of Mr. Bromley was but 1001. a-year, ! e to r l e ived in fees 2,000/. a-year. So that his actual 2iin_faents, including salary of 1001, amounted tl, uut per annum I theafter not per ll year 1817, many years B to -,' were abolished, the same office was filled . by little more tat brother at a fixed salary of 7401., being li et i t_ jo.l.o%than But of the emoluments previously • r of j " Bat in the year 1849-50 the scale of salary top t la h l e c hief . clerk of the stores the fixed . at . 5001. to the t Th ii . ce ,wlth, and to rise 201 a-year until it attaine e d . the o - I ' 4 'mM:a of 650/. When they comheparred daetion!'uto.ents as they then existed elle, wouldnich had since taken place, the differ iftbe, be found to be enormous, though no doubt, lookeanxed amount of salary for both periods was only hea t 1 a T , t, the apparent increase was very great. - 0-lear . , like ri , l _ s'a could cite a great number of similar cases, was thseolt of which would be just the same. Then there lye Y s teria of plurality, of offices. That system had ow bees prevailed to a great extent; but it had n ben an end to. This was another circumstance that p an d , ender - any comparison of salaries now with i redoete.'ePtive, and would afford no true criterion of the Ileti f t "a in emoluments which had really taken place.o. ersoke?civernment had done away with the system time enf orced eats by fees, and if they had at the same h.. rseetli,,d.ac performance of public di 1 3} , . an interdicted the practice of making 1 4 f i e rr u e n g ri tiler up income es—if Gover means then the actual reductionwou b ld e frtr ee e to be larger than any return that could _ r ill would show; and he must say, to demand fu 0 red • il i a a cations, after the amount of reduction that hat " 11 carried into effect, would be cruel and un istt: the highest degree. A publication had b e e m en . Ploy, d .setting forth the number of• persons ei theirillsaitaltrieepsublic service in France.amount The . but Lae number was not permitted to be given, La e e l i""r was stated at 266,500 persons. The near- Nis ete t r l ... te that . could be formed of . the number of per eleludi "Yea in the public service of this country, SO,OO O n g those locally employed, was somewhere about sti Pets° ta• Now, he did not really belie.eve service Ws s e I):.ectuttry in the world where the public 'Clie(ttt"'lehdca°Z)bY He few vv oupledrnseoet persons, and at such small cost. tat souse °I Commons would p b r e ese d m is e po t s e ed say to he h a w cc i e f o a p r t 4441,R-444Y of a person holding 8 — Lee in - ent he hoped the ce so w more than one department ? litibli,l.:4lld give him credit if he said his experience in taki s , l'e assured him that the servants of the public, lkdy.° the throughout, were by no means an overpaid Iktj'aitat One consequence of an unwise reductio , the the tae were au efficient public servant was, vi "es. b likely to lose the advantage bani ser,- "ad 'lb/ate establish ent3 would get them awa3, 414 44 4 i: 4 ; s i mpossible for Government to . attempt to Ptlbli e S i Private offers. The only way to induce good , Ill 'atei etva ilts to keep their posts was to keep . them . Pe i heave number and at fair remuneration. His ex n. ;: t illion - , L as a Public officer did "not lead him to the c v o er., Nlit"sel te ,Cat the public departments were at all over t° they t o k l f the public service had first-rate men,h „ N9phiescce retained, for if lost they they were not . easily 'thi /le spoke from experience when he said that !ies t enig which tended to discourage or damp the exF o r . Jtll 9 te ,thmeicat public servants would prove a real he klili eh '" .) e Public service. He had always thought Ittlilitesktit r ight to the whole services and th© best 41 11 " u il l jatith°f`triblic servants ; and if the public had true i. a wished to retain them, th h e e y_ lie, eci 4,41 eare not to discourage them. He firmly r. 4 ,.ed, ,t,ueieffect of the lion . Gentleman's motion, if ca - 'gent . a. (144 1 be to cause gr e at . and lasting discourage . li -,,,41(1g de•ervi , public servants. The public R4Te "%Id no a t h u e' better done by those who s * ,,atild only liP and not heart service. Thi s rilleipl e e Lf°llll to be a sound principle—it was 414 if -• w uich all private establishments acted upon; n allt ss l a the public business, they only got me l itr e t hearts w in A ere not their work, they would be tn - ettl a ird the public work not well done.—(Hear, tab term s t - rh e , (l id not ) vvis i h to express any opinion contrary tort -41 addressl-41:ticitclieehsl:18t s t. r.: motion o presentedtion of the Hon. Member, "that , a she will be graciously pleased . .to her Majesty to hu d m ir b e l o y t kith di n revision be made of the salaries and lluntiirtile-;ien.l . e n v erdepar d tment of the public service,. adequate reduction thereof, ts;rletserd b lt a Just an pressela datieev.',l:g 0414 entire' had to the efficient performance of the ,The sentiments of the motion ex h Y nis opinion. He held that economy t s i th do e ' -I insisted p , and practised consistentl w y Odk li:rituelecc 0 11- n on h t inion Government no 44 - e tvo 4 e k e d' ac Ind t ld a continue to act.—(Hear.) ti 111 he House t ass to the other business, Nita, of w i shi. use o . p p l ,, t i , tied 4 ki,,tlcf_.to negative directly a motion which 1/ 014 :lie pris4o..?t censure hopingonG oavte ther n m samee , h t e i m w e o t u h e thei t , Would g iv e Government t credit for acting up to Ipthit)teirwtliftehs'tiholle temakoldnergnesnauffiecehiernetdupcetirofonrsmausbweeereorthne !ad th,4trice, that being, c in his opinion, the only true „Thebti,eal sconotny.(Ch era ) hi oti ° o lo l el r.. b , t A il i m lL__ having_ - put the question, af cell a of the t t ii i l ol3,l expressed . his opinion that the (N ser e on ;',-__Lon. Gentleman did not what amo itt dtoida?voutee 44°41 sibs 1.141 e Government. But t er efanent"rl 3 ) did not care a farthin g lugh- I ecnsid dit in that light or not.—( 4 _ they t , t 1 ,,, t8 , ere tir, '''xch e clear from the speech of the Chancellor of ' t fa •s lisPa• that there were to be neither reduct_x 11,tcNrsIsios of sal 'es• The Chancellor of the E- (34 _ 1a kt r e.l a t it e t i drawn aecomparisonWestern, between the Rail- 'Weep 111 Pstis. ii os was no analogy h , Se i , o. th e e.._ humbug . There li e had sp d ' s ilei c i -21,-;--not the least . t 7 .3 the world. lit —(Laughter)— th e o dtcl n0 " t i,.. 1 .. _ ay share in h 4, ,n ,,,,, t Iv ..re a straw about the situation in which ( i ss i. ett ,,,,,, estern Company had %li e `" the c ircumstance that the fair salaries of th e , g 44 , 1 ,_ ,_. got itself,. except that h e . ', a s he I. ,u nefs.tigabl e servants had been cut down. h,„ I tY 1 1 , 1 , espected railway directors in their private , ca rtn. v , 4' hig . IV an hesitation - in sayiug that whenheir businessthee 10a to o 1 respectable men ta transact t th•.'ooli sh 'ard afterwards to cast them off . becauseof el' aeh ern ' feckless and extravagant manner in which_ of t 4 ht lai i „,4 of,ath,aad been conducted . A great deal had su ch cle rk , wt.. r eductions which had taken place, and th Pain. :inch had been removed; but what did datlyalliAhesYt tc'..-uctions amount to when the salaries ?f* Dso l a WI un i h nca cers _n t-e state—men who passed . their (Litilt,cl eliess, and whose lamentable ignorance 1 11; 1 4 (1 ie.:8111171e for business , were untouched ? his soul that the Were and i _ l% ) He believed Ministers (4 too gre_g_uorance of her M in a•esty's I let ue 4 4 1'. that if it were not j tor hu th si e ne e s x s e w rt o io u n ld s hen r y RO on ,L a clerks the public that lLaughter.) It was on the Treasury L. Y the salad°l4 was required. He saw no r d eas t o h n a s t o P ro ch s h eulde , . 11, 0d,,,„ not be reduced inroportion of the individuals who. with the el l , : ach e ~, etln former 4 t ''' l4ll *ht ) times a Chancellor . of price lti ` lll dr aw could not stir abroad unless in le °lt semi by four horses, but ln th a e i l the Lairllrabl3 o „, ,i and Gentleman opposite might travel te "co b. class, like any other passenger, ite the d. °l2l d be a bit the wiser. Now,with respect t l) .ltrie"ti t o stressed needlewomen, re °le 'telt and the inrocess of tti t '''s(L tt ri t h 4 t had been recently adopted their l' o „ woeoen er)---he disapproved altogether andof re tt ,7tY of ,i!larketable commodities for sale it,t.rstiveAls might be found for them at home, at re m barter k i ng fe,',thi e e,,isriees, but for the vile systma of importing "at e dt l .er,.. - ( ti e .. :Y the cheap and nasty goods of the t ial e oa ri4h..'±ghter)—iind thus encouraging him to * a Int l - _ 181 1 and embroidery to the damage of our owe s itrtlz%ns kid nso tn •It was to the free-trade system that % it 4 'ol) 44 _ Itch of the poverty which our cou ) ntr r y m m e e n n , I t , : With 7cre labouring under.—(Laughte e r r h t ' t "srlted re to the forthcoming „ non t s n . sical dis ht er)— he h °ll sider„ a " " Exhibition of 1851 —( at!g asthlad tiered it his duty to warn all persons with whom Into ct goo,ulinence not to go near it- 7 ( e L r. a . ughter)— ps tt l Visi te d' could Como it._(Laught ) tlvirirtid h,, , t _he Place where he resided London t iri ng tile ~,' uad told the people not to go to ,•••chibi he t 14 18s f'ear 1851— (Laughter)—because th i for the ne m h o a s d t 11 ,, , k4 e aeo tir as a humbug, the only object of e wh e ch - wo e u n ld d lie ; tr)m 2 a ge the foreigner to send his cheap .0 , fie they were not wantei.—(Laughter.) , r : ) liilda ie elf of the opp . ortunity to exhibit to ll . is 1, 11 i '''' aet , der of the foreigner's skill—so he put in Ott Itttolad ,ecante r. — (Laughter.) Yes, a d.ecant.er— kailia•leae:l"eater, and the price of the impostt a i s on a bee f l a this :"."(Latighter.) Now, he asked, how Ph •, t it ; ad ;7 11 , 0 trY, who was accustomed to eat was 'ive tt elan, t d o ll 4 strong ale, after the manner of a Bred°ll br„ co strong with those nasty foreigners who 4, 4 a bread and sour krout, and who ma ht f er: ch fared'era at sixpence a piece?—(Loud laug ) to i t ttf a i ani i was too bad that the industrious me- Ileli t dantlafatigabe labourer, who was unable to o g ns e . t . th e t ‘,l,..to 0 ,., w ages for a fair day's work, should bh o l're aul urrib ut , R te tsinetio3t,is b ench t . o_f ( a ra tt u e u n gh th t e er. s ) et of idle fello e w e s th r on Il trtat butto in Honourable would be made, be H ca e nse wa s s el a f u -i r n e terest the r f and would prevent it. The b ro eo utlt or Oxfordshire deserved thethanks of latitt't forw ard kr the able manner in which he had !hi: t o iiii w t 4r e d the subject. lie hoped he wou h l o d u c u o n n y - N t(t ace, , 8 , 4 , nd, if so, he might dend . I enemy, which lie 4St, Oibtho- t" shape of a shot at the lie did t iPo tt -Weve_tP).could give him,—(Laughter.) k ip th, s , ft think that much impression could be made . eNY beeet;3 hearts of lion. Gentlemen on the Tre h a e Its,!,,tatiku._.4 dissolution of Government would be t tl e ,," e ll e t , Z . _ Let there be a dissolution, and then they ah. ttf ih r erell, in Would Come in and who would go out d deilt°tlcatiti 11.110113.--(A laugh.) They might then have of freetreelaotiP,,rrig,.ht, independent Ministry, and an indepen tlell k.%onanaons, for they had seen quite enough th itt illi cetteftid (Laughter.) The Hon. and Gallant Gia- Oe ttf t he 01 1 6 e a, amid great merriment, by observing hi t , s ' l less..., t 4 o Way to restore this country to her former op,p`atiops, and tie her the envy and terror of surFoun sek'dpedelael.ka refuge and asylum for all who might be ki r 4 e2pr ess ,uore, was to stimulate the honest and unre• bee t , , s ' 1 1•Nv . 6",,,n of opinion on the part of ilon.Gentlemen. tte t l'ls lot to '4GATE stated that it had very seldom co, ettie tt ea hear so lucid, comprehensive, and terse a , kt her f ot , ,that which had been made by the Hon. a DAP ecI 'ith xf()rdsh ire. The contrast that it presented it ti ,,.alte wit _ the ma r k e d l y re of the Right Hon. Gentleman Palate and he was certain had made an UPC% t he law' de 9f Lt9n. Gentlemen.--. , ' , a..,.,, ,.... THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY understand where they ought to give. He was not one , who grudged adequater ayaient to the hard-working t-ervant. Sinecures were another affair. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Marylehoue had put his finger on a remarkable item. He hoped he should have the support of those great economists when he cline to deal with sinecure 3, as he proposed to do. With reference to the motion before them, he had a curious return relating to the several establishments in the public service. The highest was the Treasury. At present 37 persons were employed in managing the affairs of the Treasury. It appeared that the average age at which per sees began service in the Treasury was twenty years. Every man of business knew that a gig at deal had to be learned as to the mere business of the office, however instructed a person might enter it in other respects. If a man possessing the highest university honours were placed in the office, be would be as a child as regarded the business to be done. He would go there as a learner or student in the public service. He entered at the age of 20, with a sa lary of 901. a year. He must be there two years before any rise oF salary can be granted. At present the clerks in the Treasury were divided into four classes. The salaries of the first class were from 901. to 1001. a-year; on an average a clerk would be 32 before he obtained 2001. a-year. The salaries of the second class were from 100!. to 500/.; on an average a clerk would be 50 before he got his 500/. a-year. The question was, were these gentlemen fir they were gentle melt overpaid? The salaries of the third class were from 5001. to 8001. a-year. The last class are those with salaries of 1,000/. a-year; but before that salary could be obtained, the age of 59 must have been reached. —(I-lear, hear.) He was talking of the ordinary work ing men—not of those with political influence to push them on.—(Hear, hear.) Now, looking to the habits of this country—for they mustlook to habits—looking to what a man must go through before he could fit himself for the office, and looking to the po sition he must hold in a great town like London, where he had to meet others is the position of gentlemen—was it to be said that a man was overpaid who, at 60. found himself at the highest salary in a public office of 1,0001. a year?— (Hear, hear.) Would any man who had devoted his years to the law think himself overpaid at 60 by obtain ing 1,000/. a year?—(Hear.) Then let them consider the position of the clerk. From day to day his family depended on his being able to perform his duty in his office. In dealing with such men it was only fair to take into account the ordinary exigencies of society. Was it to be said that the State should be niggardly to such men, when, if they had adopted a mercantile life, they would have been better paid?—(An Hon. Member— " No."] An Hon. Gentleman said, no. Why, let them take any large mercantile establishment. Let them take the Bank of England. It appeared that the cashier had 1,400/. a )el,r, with a free residence; the assistant cashier, 1,000/.; the accountant, 1.200/.; and the as sistant-accountant, 9701. a year. There was no niggard liness either in the disposition of the East India Company with respect to the payment of their servants.—(Hear.) Those servants were well paid, but they were efficient men, who worked well. and, considering the nature of their duties and the offices they filled, they were not overpaid. But making all these admissions, knowing the policy of Government, and maintaining, as he did, that all those who rendered good service to the State ought to be well paid, he would ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Administration whether it would not be wise to disabuse the public mind of an erroneous impres sion which might be made upon it by his opposition to the present motion to have a full and complete inquiry into that subject—not for the purpose of passing a slur on the Government, for it could not be impeached upon that occasion, being only in the position of other Go vernments? There had been an opposition got up against the present Administration such as few other Administrations had been pressed with. It was an op position of an anomalous character. The peculiar fea tures of the present opposition were, that by legislation on the subject of our commercial policy, that protection which was formerly given to the productions of the earth had been taken away, and therefore Gentle men on that (the Opposition) side of the House had been euddenly smitten with an extraordinary love of economy.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Those Honourable Gentlemen found, and he was delighted to observe it, that the system which had so long prevailed ought to be discontinued, and then said that as there was no protection for them there should no longer be protection for anybody else.—(Hear, and laughter.) But the people of England were a generous people, and he would try the question in the way in which the House was called upon to try it in the case of the hard-working men in our public offices.—(Hear, hear.) Men in high stations were generally working men. The Honourable Gentlemen on the Treasury benches at the opposite side of the House received what were called large salaries. He did not think these gentlemen were overpaid, although it might be considered an unpopular sentiment to give 'utterance to. He had heard it stated that the heads of many departments of the public service were overpaid. He confessed ho did not think such was the case. Then, if they were not—if neither the heads were overpaid, nor the subordinates overpaid, it could only be in the number of persons employed that the al leged extravagance existed, and the required reductions made. He thought the Noble Lord would do well, there fore, in permitting that inquiry to take place. The Go vernment had an interest in that in which the interests of the country were concerned; and therefore he consi dered it would have been better for the Government not to have resisted the motion. When, therefore, he and his friend the Hon. Member for Montrose went out into (Hoar, hear.) His Hon. Friend had addressed the House with no party ,ioirit or part: purpose, and his object was not, as intimated by the Cherie&llor of the Exchequer, to pass a vote of censure on the Ministry.—(dear, hear.) So determined, however, was the Right. Hon. Gentlecoau to prevent the full discussion of opinion on the subject, that ho had charged the H )n. Member for Oxford with making an attack upon the Government. He (Mr. New deate) had vet to learn that a Government had the right to to forbid an expression of opinion upon a quee tion of expenditu se, and still less had her Majeety'e Government a right to preclude discussion on the pre sent occasion, as they themselves had, by the appointment of a Ceminittse, admitsed that inquiry into the public ex penditiro was necessary and expedient. It did not follow by any means that because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had instanced cases of the St. Kathe rine Docks Company and the Great Western Railway Company, who had been imprudent, that the House of Commons was not to inquire into the expenditure of the country, or advise her Majesty's Government upon the course which they considered it most desirable to adopt. —(Hear, hear.) Those corporations were altogether alien to the subject-matter of the present motion. The object of his Hon. Friend was not to discharge the pub lic servants engaged in the various departments of the Government, nor was it even by implication to cat cen sure upon the Ministry, but it simply amounted to this, that inasmuch as we had arrived at an epoch in our commercial policy which had caused a decline in the value of all the necessaries of life, all opportunity was afforded thereby for a revision of salaries, and for an inquiry into the remuneration of the labour of the public servants. He could show the House, by reference to circumstances which had taken place in years gone by, that the present proceeding was net without precedent. He would allude to periods sub sequent to 1793—the period chosen by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—and he could show that, in the year 1801, the salaries of the artizens employed in the Ord nance-office had been increased, under the sanction of Mr. Pitt, in consequence of the high price of food and the necessaries of life. At that period it was proposed to increase the salary of a Mr. Rose, but he, to his credit be it said, declined to receive it, on the ground that he had other sources of employment and did not require it.—(Hear, hear.) He could also state that, in 1810, the Excise officers of Edinburgh had memorialised the Treasury for an increase of salary, and that, in 1812, the Commissioners of Excise had petitioned for an in. crease of the salaries of their department, and that Lord Liverpool, who was then in office, granted the applica tion, on the ground that inasmuch as food and all the necessaries of life had become exceedingly dear, it was just and reasonable to increase the salaries of the public servants. He had alluded to those cases, because he considered them important, and applicable to the point under consideration. The reduction in prices that had recently taken place operated to the advantage of the recipient of fixed money incomes. A reduction of 25 per cent. on an article like 100 sacks of wheat, worth, say 1001., was an advantage to the owner of the salary equal not merely to one-fourth, but to one-third of the whole cost. The low rate of wheat had been adverted to by his Hon. Friend as a proof of prosperity. Great delusions had taken place on that subject. The lowness of the rate of interest arose from the fluctuations in our commercial and monetary regulations. The money market was often glutted because the investing parties had no profitable means of employing their capital. He rejoiced that his Hon. Friend, who introduced the mo tion, had shown beyond a doubt, that if Government had the will they could effect very great reductions in the salaries of the public departments, for, as he had pointed out, those salaries exceeded the amount paid for the army and navy services. That being the case, he would recommend to the Honourable Mem ber for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden), when he next addressed parties out of that House, to tell those parties that there was another way of practising economy than by reducing and weakening the defences of the country, and that he would not venture to affirm, as he had been doing, that there was no other mode by which economy could be practised than by reducing those establishments. His Honourable Friend had shown that Government had a sum of seven millions and a half with which they could deal, the whole of which was paid to parties resident in this country, who wore deriving the full benefit of the reduction in the prices, and in respect of whom reductions could be made in consequence. In the pay of the soldier they could not make reductions, for more than half of his life was passed in foreign countries, where ho was denied the advantage from the reduction of prices in this country. Should they deal with the consular establishments, they were in the same situation ; but, taking into considera tion the whole question, he would leave it to the country to decide who were the true poli tical economists. Was it his lion. Friend who recom mended that a per-tentage, equal to half the advantages which the holders of those salaries were deriving from the reduction of prices, should be taken off the salaries; or was it those who, like the Hon. Member for the West Riding, proposed to adopt the expenditure of a year long past, without at all considering the altered circum stances of the then state of things and the present? To his mind there could be no doubt as to which of the two parties were operating in the right direction. The one adopted the expenditure of 1835 as the Shibboleth of a movement, and as the basis of an agitation, in order that by means of it they might get introduced into that House motions which they were sure the common sense of the Members of the House would not allow them to support, and then to go forth and hold up to the ridicule of inflated mobs the men who opposed their foolish motions; but who were, in `act, contending for reduc tions in the expenditure in the only competent and just ground on which it could be granted. The other party were those who demanded those reductions in the man ner he had just stated, and as those demands were just he hoped the House would show on that occasion that it would respond to them. After a lapse of a short time strangers were ordered to withdraw, but Mr. HUME at length rose, and said that he considered the motion of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire one of a practical and useful nature. With respect to the Com mittee appointed ,by the Noble Lord, he did not think anything useful would result from the proposed inquiry, which was limited to three branches of the service, and on which the Government possessed all the necessary in formation. The Noble Lord was well aware of the du ties of the officers appointed by the Crown, and nothing but the will was wanting to carry out such reductions as he might think necessary. What was the proposition of the Noble Lord ? A Committee " to inquire into the salaries and emoluments of offices held during the plea sure of the Crown by Members of either House of Par liament, voted in the annual estimates; and also into the salaries and emoluments of judicial officers in the superior courts of law and equity i n the United King dom, and into the retiring pensions allotted to the judges; and also into the expense of diplomatic establishments charged on the Consolidated Fund." He (Mr. Hume) thought the inquiry ought to be extended to other branches; and he should have advised the Noble Lord to adopt the motion of the lion. Gentleman in deference to public opinion.—(Hear.) He did not think much re duction could be made in the salaries of the clerks, but he was of opinion that their number might be consider ably diminished. The country would not rest satisfied unless further inquiry was instituted. But after the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not think that any one could expect to see the inquiry ex tended. Lord J. RUSSELL—It is now going on. Mr. HUME was aware of that, but he wished a re. vision of all departments. Not that ho was disposed to refuse adequate salaries. Quite the contrary. He would willingly increase salaries and pay of all kinds, provided they could get rid of the enormous amount ex pended in pensions and half-pay. To say that all ealaries should be reduced to a certain ext let would not be fair. He was surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have alluded to the parish of Marylebone. A more unfortunate instance could not have been referred to. He had himself spent three Saturdays in investi gating their accounts. The auditors compared the ex penditure of fifteen different parishes, and it appeared that Marylebone was the most extravagant of them all. —(Hear, hear.) The object of the present motion was inquiry. No injustice was contemplated by it, nor any reduction that would impair the public service. What objection, then, could be urged against it of any weight? He was ready to support any proposal likely to be beneficial for the country. He did not think the motion attributed any blame to the Government, and he should vote for it without intending to !Impute such blame. He regretted the Government should have ob jected to the motion, because an impression would goferth that they were not desirous of inquiry. He thought the Noble Lord should have followed the example which he himself gave in 1830, when he obtained the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the salaries of heads of offices. The reductions that had recently been made in the Customs had worked well. If a partial revision had produced beneficial results, a general revision would pro duce much greater. They might deal with the whole revenue, excepting the parts of it allotted to payment of the interest of the national debt and the civil list. — (Hear, hear.) He had no desire to touch the civil list. The readiness with which her Majesty had come forward with the proposal that her income should be made liable for the income-tax ought not to be forgotten.—(Hear.) He hoped the House would not consider this a party vote. They were there as trustees of the public purse, and it was their duty to promote economy. He should vote for the motion. Mr. ROEBUCK wished, in a few words, to explain the principle on which he should vote. He intended to vote for the motion, though he thought it a most use less one—a motion, in fact, almost without meaning, yet he intended to vote for it.—(Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had, he understood, moved the previous question ; but he would have done the mo tion greater injury if he had dealt with it otherwise. If the Right Honourable Gentleman had acceded to the motion—a motion which had been brought forward for a purpose — of which the meaning was not in its words, but in its intent, and which could not effect what its mover intended—if the Right Honourable Gentleman had acceded to such a motion, he would have gained the popularity - of being:an economist by consenting to a mere truism.—(Hear, hear.) Let them understand the pro position, for he liked to deal with gentlemen fired with this new-born zeal for economy. It was for a humble address to her Majesty, praying for a careful revi sion of the salaries and wages paid in every depart ment of the public service, with a view to ade quate reductions therein.—(Hear, hear.) But that was not all; there was a guarding clause—" duo regard being had to the efficient performance of the several duties." Was not this precisely the rule on which Mi nisters of the Crown had always acted ? The Noble Lord might have accepted a proposition so qualified without any hesitation. He wished to know who the parties were whose salaries it was proposed to revise? He agreed with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that the fact of more persons being employed than was ne cessary would be a reason for inquiry. But a great farce was being played before the country as to the re ameratiolz of their publio oervuuts, WIN,' ought to the lobbies upon that division, they were not voting in opposition to the present Government, but merely f .)r an inquiry as to whether the service of the Stets was per formed at a rate which the State ought not to pay. He again reiterated his impression that the Government ought not to have resisted an inquiry into that matter. Why should not an inquiry take place now? Why should they have such a subterfuge with respect to it as the moving of the previous question? The Noble Lord conceived that the present was an inconvenient time for such an inquiry (" No, no," from the Govern ment benches.) He should read the ordinary forms of the House in the manner in which they were generally taken. It was said that this was not the proper time to entertain the subject, when the previous question was moved in answer to the motion before them. Now he would like to know could there be a better time than the present to entertain the subject before them? In what state was the country? It was in circumstances of varied transi tions--with a new commercial policy instituted, and the prices of the ordinary necessaries of life greatly fallen.— (Hear.) No man could expect anything on the part of the country but an acquiescence in the determinations of that House.—(Hear, hear.) He could conceive, then, no combination of circumstances more favourable than the present for such an inquiry, nor could he fancy any thing more impolitic than the opposition offered on the part of the Government to that motion. He believed the people of this country would be most generous in their payment of their deserving public servants, if only made aware that good and efficient services had been rendered.—(Clear, hear.) He did not think there was one intelligent working man in the empire, who got his bread by the labour of his own hands, who would not aid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government iu paying those who did efficient service for the State. He would oppose the motion of the Government by which that question would be avoided, because he thought the people of this country had a right to have that question settled now.—(Hear, hear.) Sir R. PEEL and some other Hon. Members rose to gether. There were loud calls for the former, and the rest having given way, the Right Hon. Baronet pro ceeded to say that he agreed with so much of what had Men from the Hon. and Lea-ned Member who had just addressed the House, but particularly with regard to the services of those occupying subordinate places in the offices of the state, and the obligation due from the pub lic to them for the fidelity and integrity with which their service were performed, that he was surprised, agreeing with so much that had been said, he should come to a different conclusion from that at which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had arrived.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel), however, put a different construction on the intention of the motion of the Honourable Member fur Oxfordshire, and the manner in which it had been met, namely, by moving the previous question, from that construction put upon them by the Hon. and Learned Member who had just spoken. Ho did not understand the Honourable Member's motion as one asserting that an inquiry should be instituted into the salaries of all the chief offices of the State—into the diplomatic and judicial departments of the country. Ho did not think the Hon. Gentleman's object was to lead to a Par liamentary investigation into those matters ; but he rather inferred that the Hon. Gentleman's resolution went to impose on the Government that duty sought to be imposed on it by the motion introduced a short time since by the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), that the Government should be the party to make the necessary reductions, and to introduce a scheme for that purpose to the House, showing where reductions were possible. (Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member who last addressed the House said that the motion embodied a truism, and, therefore, ought to ho agreed to. Now he (Sir R. Peel) apprehended that a great many truisms had been introduced from time to time int() that House which ought not to be acquiesced in.—(Hear, and laughter.) If the doctrine of the Hon, and Learned Gentleman were correct, every motion which implied a truism ought to be assented to. Now he (Sir R. Peel) thought the House of Commons ought not to vote for truisms unless they had a practical effect. —(Hear.) He considered the justification of the present resolution interfered with the ordinary functions of the Executive Government, and it ought not, therefore, to be agreed to, unless founded upon some act done, or was calculated to effect some direct object. He did not think the motion was brought forward in a bona fide spirit, and that it was calculated to tend to the impression that great reductions could be made in the salaries of public officers without retrenching those which were not suffi ciently paid. It was became he could not continue that delusion that he voted as be intended to do. What he said wa., let every inquiry be made by those authorities entitled to do so. When, therefore, he voted for the previous question, he did not mean to convey that the present was not a proper time to consider what reduction might be made in every department of the public service. The Hon. Gentleman, in alluding to a speech of his in 1845, did not correctly state the substance of what had been quoted as his observations. He (Sir R. Peel) had not laid down the position that unless the great naval and military establishments were reduced, no diminution could take place in the public expenditure. He had said that there was a general impression, that on the whole of the expenditure there could be a reduction. —(Hear, hear.) That expenditure had amounted to 48,000,000/ • but it was a great delus ion on the p art of the public to suppose that a reduction could take place to the extent that bad been mentioned. He had stated that the necessary expenditure amounted to 35,000,0001., and that the utmost that could be dealt with was 13,000,000/. Ho had not implied that any re ' thlOtiOn could be lamb in the oiyil establiohments. die tailing the salaries of those servants. What he objected to in the motion of the Hon. Member was, that the mo- had said that he thought it would be an erroneous ex- t pectation on the part of the public if they were led to suppose that any great relief could be afforded from a reduction of the salaries in question. With respect to the changes made in the excise duties, the duties on glass, acid the auction duties, it had been said that the expectations he had suggested had not been falfilled. He begged to say he thought that his anticipations in these matters had been to a great extent borne out, for the abolition of the glass duties and auction duties had enabled them to effsct a considerable saving in their establishments. By a return made in 1846 it would be found that every anticipation which he had entertained had been fulfilled. He had stated that he thought the reduction of those duties would afford a great oppor tunity of diminishing the establishments which they were then obliged to keep up. And what was the result? Why, no less than 450 persons had been discontinued in the particular departments alluded to, and a saving of no less than 52,0001. had been effected for the country. That did not show that the expecta tions which he had held out were not fulfilled. That the Government desired to maintain those offices alluded to for the purpose of patronage he thought was as en tirely unfounded as it was unjust to accuse them of keep• ing up the army and navy in order to find places for the younger branches of the nobility. So far from wishing to increase the expense: of the Treasury department, he thought every Chancellor of the Exchequer would be most anxious to make as many reductions as he could. Having heard of the amouut of the relief voluntarily made by the Government. and having had proof of their desire to carry out all fair retrenchments, he did not de sire to imply the sort of reflection upon them which that motion would be likely to cast. He thought the Government had given proofs of their desire to reduce every expense which might be reduced. The present motion had no reference to the salaries of great offices. He could confirm from long personal experience all that had been said in justincation and approbation of the conduct of those who filled the offices of Government in the public department of the State. He would ask the House to look to the changes which took place with respect to those public departments. Suppose a new Government came into power, how much must they not depend, for a certain time, on the knowledge and experience of those who filled responsible situations in public offices?—(Hear, hear.) Let them take the case, for instance, of the late Mr. Brookbanks.—(Hear.) Did not every Chancellor of the Exchequer who had ever come into office know how much he ought to rely on the experience and knowledge of a gentleman like that?—(Hear.) Let them go through all the public offices—it would be found to be the same. An Hon. Gentleman had said that the rule now of all the public offices was increased work and diminished pay. And certainly if the number of papers now passing through the Treasury were compared with that of twenty years since, it would be admitted that the duties there had more than doubled. It had been said that the officials there did not work enough—that they did nothing at night ; and several allegations of that kind had been made. He would ask the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether the ser vices of the gentlemen in the public departments with which he was conversant were not always available at all hours, and whether they had not always cheerfully given their assistance whenever called upon by their superiors.—(Hear, hear.) What was the posi tion in that public( department? A young man was placed there for two or three years on a small salary, not calculated to meet his expenses, and after some years of service he received an allowance of 2001. per annum. Now it was not the amount of labour which was to be considered so much as the amount of trust reposed in those parties.—(Hear, hear.) . The Secretaries of State could not discharge their duties without entrusting most important state secrets to many individuals not in the pos session of more than 5001 a year.—(Hear.) It was not, then, the quantity of labour that was to be borne in remembrance so much as the great extent of honourable confidence reposed in such men—(Hear, hear)—and he thought it would be most injurious to the public interests of the country to undervalue or underrate the services of those who, if they had not the fortunes had at least the feelings of gentlemen. For his part, he had great pleasure in bear ing his testimony to the efficiency and fidelity of those who filled the subordinate offices of our public service. —(Hear.) They were worthy of great trust. He had heard in other countries of means existing for acquiring a knowledge of important secrets and documents; but he had never known an instance in this country of any such imputation on the honour of a public man even in the humblest station.—(Hear, bear.) When he had the honour of filling the office of First Lord of the Trea sury, he had been allowed 3001. a y ear each for the sa laries of two private secreta ries. Of course he was obliged to take those gentlemen from the Treasury and he could say that if they had 10,0001. a year they could not perform their duties with more zeal, fidelity, and efficiency than they had done.—(Hear, hear.) Now if the present motion meant anything, it meant that there ought to be a revision of the salaries of such men as these ; and he felt bound to oppose it , because he thought it would inflict a wound on men to whom the public were under great obligations. He admitted that in forming new establishments it was a fair con sideration to be taken into account that the prices of provisions were lower now than they had been formerly; but in considering the case of those who had spent some 20 years or more in the public service, he did not think that was a matter which ought to be taken into account just now. A Committee had already been appointed for inquiring into the salaries of the higher class of pub lic officers, with a view to ascertain whether or not it was advisable that those salaries should be reduced. Now he should state his opinion upon that subject with out any hesitation. His opinion was, that those who filled the highest offices of the state in this country did not receive an amount of remuneration in the slightest degree greater than that—he would not say to which they were entitled—but than that which the public interest required should be attached to the situations which they held. While he entertained that opinion, he also believed that those who filled subordinate offices in the state were at least equally entitled to consideration and protection; and with that conviction he should vote for the motion which implied that the sense of the House ought not to be taken on the proposal of the Hon. Member for Ox fordshire.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. COBDEN said that the only argument he had heard advanced in favour of the motion then under their consideration was, that the salaries of public officers should be reduced in proportion to the reduction which had of late years taken place in the price of commodities of every description. Now, if he were to admit the va lidity of that argument, he should be a party to a ge neral reduction of wages in this country—(Hear, hear) —for that would naturally be regarded as a war on wages. He objected to any proposed reduction of wages by a sweeping vote of that House—first, because he thought it would be impracticable, and next, because he believed that no ground had been shown for such a re duction. It had been stated by the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, that since the years 1828 and 1829 there had been a general reduction in the prices of articles of consumption in this country. The lion. Gentleman had calculated that reduction at from 23 to 25 per cent.; and he had argued that there ought to be a proportionate reduction in the amount of wages. But he (Mr. Cob den) did not see that that consequence necessarily fol lowed from those premises. There might have been a reduction in the price of commodities in consequence of improvements in the mode of producing them; ironmongery might be cheaper in consequence of the discovery of the hot-blast, and corn might be cheaper in consequence of the employment of guano and the adoption of a system of efficient drainage.—(Cries of Hear, bear," and " Oh, oh.") But if the cheapness wa s owing to discoveries in science, why, he should ask, ought not the working classes as well as all other mem bers of the community to be benefited by their introduc tion? Hon. Gentlemen Opposite spoke as if all classes in the country had of late years suffered reductions in their incomes. But he denied that that had been the say there bad been no such reduc case. He denied that rents had been reduced.—(Hear, hear.) He denied that as a general rule there had of late years been a reduction of rents in England. In the north a reduction of wages, that he main etifonE,hagnlclaehde mighthdeidnot anticipate a reduction. But so far was it from being true, that a reduction of prices neces tteendency was the very reverse. The re sdtaauirceitleiydonitehodef price led to an increased demand, and the increased demand produced a tendency to an advance of wages. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to be ignorant of the fact that there had of late c years rease existedofwages a general I to an advance of wages in ibis country. But he could say, witho u t f e ar of con tradiction, that during the recent diminution of the prices e i n mo a n l g tendencythe very p ersons of commodi t i es , there had existed a tendency to an in by whom the commodities had been p roduced. Amon g the operatives in Leicester and in Nott in g ham, there had of late been a succession of strikes, an d an increase of wa ges unknown for fifty years before.—(Hear, hear.) Flow, th en , cou ld Hon. Gentlemen opposite come forward and say that the country was in such a state of distress that the wages of persons employed by the Goverment should be reduced? They might as well tell him that the wages of the agri cultural labourers had been reduced.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he could say that for the last fifty years agricultu ral labourers had been placed in a different position from any other class of labourers in this country. They had, during the whole of that period, been reduced to such a state that their wages only enabled them to obtain a scanty subsistence for themselves and their families. That he called the slavery state of wages. He did not blame Hon. Gentlemen opposite for that—it had been a general rule in this country during the last fifty years. When the price of food rose, the wages of the agricul tural labourers were raised in proportion; and when the price of food fell, the wages of those labourers were re duced in proportion; so that they were never able to purchase more than a certain limited quantity of food. But even in the agricultural districts he maintained that, notwithstanding some partial reduction of money wages, the labourers and their families had been, on the whole, better fed since food had been at a mederate price than in the year 1847—the boasted year of agricultural pros perity.—(Hear, hear.) le e said that the reduced price of commodities afforded no reason whatever why the House should pass a sweeping resolution calling on the Government to enter on a general reduction of the wages of labour. Let them look to the position of clers in government offices. Were Hon. Gentlemen op posite aware of the number of those clerks who re ceived salaries less in amount than the wages'pail to many skilled artisans ?—(Hear, hear.) Ile found from a pamphlet put forward by the civil employee themselves on a different question from that then under the consi deration of the House, that among upwards of 13,000 Government clerks, upwards of 8,000 were receiving under 100/. a year.—(Bear, bear.) 'Did TT Did _son. Gentle men opposite propose th a t the salaries of those clerks should be reduced?—(llear, hear.) He agreed with those who thought that among a large proportion of the civil servants of the Government the salaries were not excessively high. He also thought that they would have a better chance of reducing their expenditure by dimi nishing the number of the Public servants than by our- tioa did not allude to the possibility of reducing the number of the public servants, but ,dwelt only on the reduction of their saltries. The lion. Gentleman and his party had supported the motion in a way which al most led him (Mr. Cobden) to infer that there was a concealed sting hi the resolution, and that it was meant as a retaliation fur the fall in the price of certain com modities.—(clear.) Ile had heard with much satisfac tion the speech made that evening by his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume); and it certainly appeared to him that everything in that speech had gone against the motion of the Hun. Member for Oxfordshire. His Hon. Friend had said that the wages and the sala- ries of persons employed in the public offices were not in general excessive, while he added that those persons might be reduced in number. But the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire had lost sight of all that, and had only pro posed a sweeping reduction of salaries. The Hon. Mem ber and aaotber Hon. Gentleman who followed him seemed to have gone out of their way for the purpose of at'acking him for having stated that the best mode of reducing the national expenditure would be by effecting a reduction in our armaments. The Hon. Gentleman appeared to think that he (Mr. Cobden) bad said that no reduction could be made except in our armaments. But what he had said in 1848, and what he then repeated, was, that no material reduction could be made in our expenditure—no reduction such as would be filt at the fireside of every family in the country— .. if • that costly item, our military establishment, was to remain untouched. What were the reductions which had been effected since he had made that statement? Why, he had found that i❑ the year 1848.49 the expenses of our military establishments, including the expense of the Kafir war, had amounted to 18,700,0001., while the whole of the estimates of the present year, for the army, the navy, and the ordnance, amounted to only 14,300,000/. That fact, he thought, afforded a strong justification of the statement he had made in the year 1848. He believed that a considerable reduction in the national expenditure might be effected by a change in our system of pensions and superannuation allowances. He did not see why there should be a superannuation allowance for any civil servant. The case of such a porson was totally different from that of a man who had had his limbs shattered in the military service. He did not see why any civil servant who, during 30 or 40 years, had been in the receipt of a good salary, should have a claim on the country for a pension during the remainder of his life. Reference had been made to the Select Committee which had been appointed the other day to inquire into the salaries of the higher class of public officials. He had voted for that Committee, althought it had been opposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose. His Hon. Friend said he did not see any use in a Committee. But he (Mr. Cobden) could not agree with him upon that point. The Committee of the import duties, for which his Hon. Friend himself had moved, had done more than any other to carry free trade. And, again, he believed that the Committee on the African squadron would ulti• mately lead to the removal of the African blockade. The report of a Committee might not by itself be i productive of any important result; but the evidence brought before a Committee often influenced public opinion to a very material extent. He felt great regret in differing upon that occasion from his lion. Friend the Member for Montrose, whose labours in the cause of economy no one could doubt or mistrust. But it appeared to him (Mr. Cobden) that upon that question his Hon. Friend had made a speech upon one side, whiie he was about to vote upon the other. For his part he objected to a re duction of the salaries of the humbler class of Govern ment clerks•, he objected to the reasons given for that reduction; he did not wish to see blame cast upon free trade by making it the pretext for curtailing the emolu ments of useful public officials, He did not wish to make it appear that this country was less able at present than it had been before the adoption of free trade to pay those who were engaged in its service; he did not wish to see any class excluded from the benefits which free trade was, in his belief, calculated to confer; and he should therefore give his vote against the motion of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND expressed his surprise that so profound a political economist as the Honourable Member for the West Riding should have referred to the case of the agricultural labourer in the way he had done. The Honourable Member ought to be aware that the case of the agricultural labourer was a peculiar one, him a minimum of wag aai bwc e howa s urhbreeee labourers,rlr o tesh w wa t w atsh h t c eni h on o m lo: fp p e o poaw s efr saani wages be theeedl de to go.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member also s. because the effect of the poor-law was to prescribe for ai w tm g c ae r w :i n u t e a e e s ns r r t a i i rpa d nma i d i do unnot manytot s oi e nf e individual pvaai t gdr o ieussa b hl o ewe e to be high, great numbers of persons were wholly unemployed, and, consequently, the amount of wages paid ought to be considered with reference to the whole population of the district.—(Hear, hear.) It really would be satisfactory if Ministers would have the kindness to declare, once and for all, whether the country bad gained or lost by their measures. To-night the House had been informed that the coun try bad not gained a farthing; whereas, at the begin ning of the session, it was asserted that our gain amounted to not less than 90,000,000/.—(Hear, hear.) Perhaps the question was an open one with the Minis try, and they had not yet arrived at any satisfactory con clusion with respect to it. His reason for thinking it just and politic to reduce salaries rather than to dimi nish the number of persons employed la as this: —T here had taken place a general reduction of the prices of ar ticles of consumption—a reduction brought about not by any partial cause, but the result of a system in which Ministers and gentlemen opposite were now triumph ing.—(Hear, hear.) Man, like all animals, was grega rious, and there were only two ways of moving grega rious herds—you must attract them by the clover in front, or impel them by the goad behind. Now, he was for a strong government; he cared not whether it were monarchical, constitutional, republican, or any thing else.—(Laughter.) Governments in this coun try had been strong in past years, by bribing the boroughmongers—by bribing the Lord Lonsdales.--[A Memberimmediately behind Mr. Drummond here uttered an exclamation which caused considerable laughter.] It wag unfortunate that the Honourable Member should have interrupted him in the midst of a compound sub stantive.—(A laugh.) He was saying that former Ad ministrations found it necessary to bribe the borough- mongers, in order that they might be able tocarry on the government, and now Ministers must the bribe financial reformers for the same purpose. The great lords and the aristocracy, it seemed, had a monopoly of the army, and did not want commissionerships and smaller offices; but the financial reformers did want them for their friends and relatives—(Hear, and laughter)—and therefore oe found happened su w , naodnu and voting ow vote tthione gn b oawe with tyh brought there would be plenty of speeches from those gentlemen po w wof h as t iri l :t s t, t op , tnrh i a, n eclyitki t c h ewa a bto t hl out . of doors in favour of retrenchment and economy, practical Ministers ni s p tfo r favour orr s: against it.—(Hear.) Mr. WOOD said, that free trade had had the happy effect of making, not only the Hon. Member fur Ox fordshire, but the constituents whom he so able repre sented, economists; for a farmers' club established in Oxfordshire for the avowed object of maintaining agri cultural protection had not long since dissolved itself, the farmers declaring that the question of protection was at end. The present motion was not so rough and rude in its form as that proposed by the same Hon. Member would dPporruboesspeeeo'nsa propositions, last year, which contemplated the reduction of all salaries to the extant of 10 per cent. The Right Hon. Member for Stamford made an excellent speech against the Hon. Member's motion last session, in the course of which he showed that out of 23,000 persons employed in the civil service of the Government, 20,000 had incomes under 1001. a year. It was therefore evident that the reduc tion proposed by the Hon. Member would chiefly apply to persons in receipt of very moderate incomes. Persons in the civil service of tho Government were vary far from being extravagantly paid. It came within his own knowledge that gentlemen who had started from the Universities with him and entered into Government offices in preference to professions were now, atter many years' service, in the receipt . of only 2001. or 3001. a year. Looking at the ominous introduction of the word " wages" into the motion and arguments by which it had been supported, the country would look upon its adoption by the House as a declaration that wages must bo reduced in consequence of the adoption of free trade, and, under these circumstances, he felt bound to vote against the resolution. Mr. DISRAELI—There was one thing at least upon which the House and the country were agreed, notwith standing some delicately-toned dissentient murmurs which had been breathed that evening, namely, that the pressure of taxation on the country was excessive.— (Hear, hear.) From all classes of the community, from all parties in the State, from every part of the kingdom, the declaration was heard that retrenchment was not only desirable but necessary.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for the West Riding and his friends had taken a leading part in encouraging the cry for retrenchment. They announced that a vast measure of reduction of the public expenditure was absolutely necessary, and, to do the Hon. Member for the West Riding justice, it must be admitted that he no sooner entered the House after the recess than he proposed a resolution to which the epithet " sweep ing." which it now appeared the Hon. Gentleman dis liked, was felicitously applicable.—(Hear, and laughter.) There could bo no doubt, also, that amongst another class with which the Hon. Member for the West Riding was not very closely connected, although be was par' tially so—namely, the agricultural class, there existed a sincere conviction that the public burdens to which they were subjected were of a very grievous character. The question, then, naturally occurred—what was the cause of this?—how did it happen that in 1849-50 a country whose population bad greatly increased, whose capital, it was said, had surprisingly accumulated, whose com merce was vast, and whose manufactures were so in genious and (as was alleged) so prospering, should be pervaded by a general feeling of uneasiness, and that all classes in it should combi ne to tell the Legislature that their burdens were not only grievous but intolerable?— (Cheers.) During several years the Legislature had been engaged in reducing that class of taxation which pressed most sensibly on the springs of industry. For many years past million after million of taxes had been removed from the shoulders of; that class with which the lion. Member for the West Riding was connected.—(Hear, hear.) Nearly 9,000,000/. of taxation had been remitted, the object of that remis sion being to make the burden of imposts more easily borne by the favoured class, and when all that had been done the Hon. Member for the West Riding and his friends came to Parliament and said, " Only repeal the corn-laws and we will beat the world." Well, the corn laws wererepealed, but the world was not yet vanquished. —(Cheers.) This being the state of affairs, the Hon. Member for the West Riding, and his friends, who, out of doors wei t e proud of being thought the leaders of what they called a new movement for the reduction of ex ' penditure and taxation, had conducted themselves in the gouge that evening es if they were it many Qbancollors of the Exchequer, and as if it was their business to paint , the position of the chief clerks and virtual Ministers o in rosy hues the prospering fortunes of a flourishing State in Downing-street, nor upon the statement of the community.—(Cheers and laughter.) In the meantime Hon. Member for the West Riding, that he would not whilst the Hon. Members and his friends were claiming vote for the motion because it would affect the wages of credit for getting up a new agitation, a change had come ; the country. Wages were already affected, and they over the fortunes of the classes with which they who sat believed that there was no part of the community who on that (the Opposition) side of the House were con- would not in that respect be affected. Hon. Members nected. They found that in consequence of their di- might try to avoid the consequences of the motion, and rninished means they were unable to meet the charges to evade the responsibility which hung over their heads, which the Legislature had imposed on them, and they but they could not evade it. No man in that House naturally sought relief in a legitimate wry. The reduc- could evade it, and least of all those clamorous tion of expenditure, as leading to a reduction of taxation, patriots who founded institutions and societies was the means of relief which first suggested itself. In for financial reform, who entered that House and pro accordance with that sentiment, they (the Opposition) posed, in unison with those institutions, impracticable had proposed and supported various propositions. They propositions, and the moment they were brought to a (the Protectionists) hal been subjected to imputations point at which they must decide upon a definite sum, from Hon. Gentlemen, some of whom were so distin- levied for a particular object, fled from the test. Neither ;wished as to occupy seats on the Treasury bench. He the plea that the Government was in danger, and that did not refer, of course, to those unfounded statements wages would be affected, nor any other shadowy subter which, in an excited tie quoque, were excusable at a late fuge that might suit their purpose that night, would pre hour of the night in a debate. But when the Noble vent them being condemned by the general voice of the Lord, because they had given votes' the object and effect country.—(Cheers.) He did not know, and he did not of which were to remove burdens from the community, care what might be the causes of the universally ac charged them with the intention of breaking faith with knowledged distress which many Gentlemen had referred the public creditor and destroying the finances of the to. He had his own opinion on the subject. Like the country, he made an imputation which was little autho- Honourable Member for Oxfordshire, he did not sup rised by facts, and had supported it by an allegation pose that it proceeded from one particular cause. He which was purely imaginary —viz., that he and the gen- had no doubt that an evil so complicated, so general, tleman who usually acted with him had voted for the was occasioned by many causes; but he thought that it repeal cf the window-tax. Now he maintained that they might be traced to one predominant cause, the conic on that side of the House had given no votes for the re- quences of which were injurious, and which would bo mission of taxation which were not authorised by ultimately more than injurious.—(llear.) But what ho the state of the public finances; neither had they g iven wanted to call the attention of the House and the coun any without a due consideration of the claims of the try to was this, that the result was no longer ques public creditor. But he admitted that their votes tioned. At feet, when they talked of distress, they tied also been guided by a due consideration to the were told there was no distress, and that the country claims of their suffering constituents. The Tory party were was prosperous. They were now told that it was true now charged by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the that there was very great distress, but that it was not Member for Sheffield with "new-born zeal for econo- occasioned by any legislative measure, but by railroads. my." The advocacy of economy had been considered Well, he asked, who was responsible for railroads?— by that Hon. and Learned Gentleman as something fo- (Hear.) Why, those great men who ought to be the reign to the nature of their great political connexion. guides of the House, their tutors in political instruction, He (Mr. Disraeli) would like to know what great finan- and the guardians of the public conduct. Did they not cial reductions had been made in this country in modern stimulate railroads in that House?—(Cheers.) Did they times except by the Tory party.—(Cheers.) He did not take the violent step of melting the attendance on not refer to times far remote, but if Hon. Gentlemen Railway Committees compulsory, in order that no time would run their eye over the history of this country might be lost in forming competitive lines? Were not the from the period atter the independence of the United young men of England admonished not to lose their time States up to the passing of the Reform Bill, they would in making speeches, but to devote their time to Railway find that every great measure of public economy and Committees? Was not that the advice of great statesmen? fin uncial reform had been effected by the Tory party.— Well, what was the conduct of the great middle class, who (Ironical cheers.) Why, what did they do when they ought to be the governors and guides of the country? passed the Reform Bill? They destroyed that Govern- It used to be said that the time was come when England meat which they were now obliged to bring forward as was to be governed by a kw great towns, but that the model Government of political frugality.--(Hear, was when shares were at a premium of 150 per cent. It hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman the Member was then that it was said there should be no House of fur the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn), who Lords, and the House of Commons must be reconstructed. was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, might look back What had been the result of the superior energy, enter , upon his career as one which was not at all common in prise, and sagacity of the great middle class, especially our times—a career in the course of which he bad twice in the great towns of the north of England? Why, it effected a great reduction in the interest paid for the appeared that more than 100,000,000/. had not only been national debt. Yet the House had just been told of lost in railroad speculations, but lost, it appeared, by " the new-born zeal" of the Tory party.—(Hear, hear.) not keeping accounts. And these were the men who The gentlemen who passed, or who were the creatures had been all over England denouncing the farmers, be of the Reform Bill, had produced a Parliamentary Go. cause they cultivated land without keeping accounts.— vernment which the Hon. Member for Montrose knew, (Laughter.) Well, what was the predominant cause of with a heavy heart, had produced the greatest financial that distress, to provide a remedy for which he int en d e d disasters to the country; and the Hon. Gentleman, no to support the motion of his Honourable Friend to doubt, looked back with satisfaction to the time when night? He thought it was mainly occasioned by that he found more economy in an unreformed Parliament legislation of 1846 which affected the interchange of than had ever been effected by a reformed Parliament. the most important commodities between different Those gentlemen who had received their education in countries. (Hear, hear.) He had: always been reform and financial associations, and who did not of that opinion, and he had always expressed that condescend to look into the history of their country opinion. The Noble Lord had said to the Tory beyond a few years back, now came forward and an- party, "If such aro your opinions, why don't you bring nounced that they could not support a motion which had forward the question ? " Gentlemen on his side of the public economy for its object, because it had originated House were quite aware of their deficiences ; they were In the new-born zeal of the Tory party I What was the often reminded of them by the eminent, honourable, he motion of his lion. Friend? It was a motion might almost say illustrious persons about them ; they in perfect accordance with many Parliamentary could not attempt to rival others in eloquence and poll precedents —in perfect accordance with many mo- tical sagacity and forethought, but at all events they tions which had been made by Members of were not weak enough to allow their campaign to be the Tory party within the last fifty years. It chalked out for them by their opponents.—(Hear, hear, was much more than that: it was a motion in perfect ac- and laughter.) However, he would tell the Noble Lord cordanco with the exigencies of the times.—(Hear, hear.) very candidly why they did not bring forward the ques- That motion, however, had encountered the anticipated tion. They did not think it was a question to be opposition of many eminent individuals. It had been settled in the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) opposed, of course, by the Right Hon. Gentleman the They thought, that whatever the decision of the House Chancellor of the Exchequer, who at the beginning of upon it might be, it could not be satisfactory to the the session—only a few weeks ego—announced that country. It seemed incidental to human nature prices had fallen below the mark which ho had antici- that wisdom was only to be acquired by adversity ; pated, and who had the honourable courage to confess and when the country had arrived at that pitch of suf that he trusted a rise would soon take place, but who had feriog which should teach it the great lesson, he that night vindicated his opposition to the motion by his had no doubt the country would settle the question researches into the books of the Marylebone Vestry, for itself, without troubling him or the Noble Lord at which proved that prices had risen. That was the most all in the matter.—(Hear, hear.) Sure he was that no important part of the statistical information of the Right other settlement of it would be permanently satisfactory Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) Then came the °pp- to the country.—(Hear, hear.) Whichever way the sition of a still more important party—that of' the Right House might vote, the people out of doors would be dis- Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth; and cer- satisfied. Even supposing a substantive motion for the tainly, as far as his observations went, they were retracing of their steps in commercial legislation were, quite unanswerable, because the theatre on which the as desired by the Noble Lord, proposed to an assembly Right Honourable Gentleman had played was of a li- pledged the other way, and even supposing it carried, its mired, although of a classical character—it was con- proposers would not achieve a result which, as prudent fined to Downing-street. One would have supposed men, they should desire to accomplish; because it was from the observations of the Right Honourable Gen- by slow degrees, by the salutary experience of suffer tleman, that the subject of the motion of the lion. ing, that the various classes of the community must Member for Oxfordshire was to curtail the salaries of arrive at that charge which assuredly they would by those mysterious and rare individuals who were virtually and-bye arrive at.—(Hear, hear.) Before he sat down the Government of the country. The Right Hon. Gen- he would mike one observation which he thought the tleman had referred to the late Mr. Brooksbank, as if Noble Lord would do well to reflect upon before he they were about to invade the innermost sanctuary of again talked of ideas cf this kind coming under the Downing-street, and to deprive gentlemen who des- head of a wildgoose chase. It seemed to be the convic charged responsible and important duties, and were en- tion of the Noble Lord and his friends that the notion trusted with most important secrets, of the rewards which of a recurrence to the commercial system that bad been they had so dearly won. The Right Hon. Gentleman abrogated was perfectly insensate, especially so in a had argued the whole case as it' they were merely deal- country where democratic sympathies so greatly pre ing with some 100,0001. or 200,000/. a year. Was that veiled as, very fortunately, they did in this country. the case? On the contrary, had not the Hon. Member Ile would remind the Noble Lord that there was a na for Oxturdshire, in his ingenious and thoroughly trust- tion, a nation not second in power even to our own great worthy argument, shown that they would have to deal and powerful nation, where the reaction so ridiculed had with an amount of not less than 7,500,000/.2 Now, did actually taken place; that nation, moreover, being one the observations of the Right lion. Gentleman apply to in which the democratic influence was immensely more that theme?—(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman powerful even than it was in England; he spoke of the had drawn a most interesting picture of himself; over- United States of America.—(Hear, hear.) Before the whelmed with the cares of state, and supported en each Noble Lord again told them that a recurrence to the com side by a private secretary—the one with 3001. a year, mercial code under which this country so long and so and the other with 150/. Now, what would have been greatly prospered was a wild phantasma, to be rejected said if Lord Hardinge, after one of his great victories, by every sane man, let him reflect that the phantasms had written home a dispatch, in which he stated that in was accepted in America.—(Hear, hear.) In a House the thick of the fight he had been supported by two where there was such frequent eulogy of American in aides-de-camp, the one an ensign and the other a lieu- stitutions, and American conduct, and American intel tenant—that they were men in whom he had greatly lect, he might fairly expect that the admirers of Ameri trusted, and to tne faithful fulfilment of whose arduous can politics would in time also become admirers of Arne duties ho was much indebted, that they had almost sa- rican economies. —(Hear, hear.) He for one was not crificed, and hal certainly hazarded their lives in that desirous that the great and inevitable reconstruction of great victory, but that he had a most painful feeling our commercial system on principles favourable to native when he remembered that one of them had only 3001. industry—not to the cosmopolitan interests, so elo and the other only 1501. a year?—(Cries of " Oh, oh !" queutly and so sincerely advocated by the Gallant and " Hear, hear.") lie maietained that the cases were Colonel—should take place in any other way than in quite parallel. But he would ask, did a young man who the United States, as the consequence, merely, of sharp desired the post of private secretary to a Minister of experience, and under the influence of popular sentl- State look to the immediate wages ho received ? No: ment.—(Cheers.) he looked to the immediate reward of the confidence of Lord J. RUSSELL said, that at that hour of the _ _ _ _ his chief, and to the future rewards which were open to him. That, therefore, was an amiable but ad captatidum answer,which had nothing whatever:o do with the motion before the House. After the Right Hon. Gentleman followed the Hon. Member for the West Riding. The Noble Lord the other night seemed a little angry with him and some of his friends for having gone into the same lobby with the Hon. Member for tne West Riding and his friends. He seemed to think there was some thine. very dangerous in being connected with such' allies. The Noble Lord during his varied career had had great experience; and one would have supposed he would have been the last person to find fault with such " compact alliances."—(Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord need have no serious fears on the subject. Those votes had already effected a salutary purpose. The House had that night had a frank avowal trom the great leader of the Financial Reform Association that a proposition of " a sweeping nature"—never mind his reasons—should not receive his support.—(Hear. hear, and laughter.) That was something which the Protec tionists had effected, and as there would necessarily be great anxiety felt by her Majet.ty's Ministers to alvanc e public business, it would be gratifying to them to find that there was now not the slightest fear that the " sweeping motions" which used to occupy the notice- book, and pro crastinate the termination of the session—such as the motions for the repeal of taxes, the ext cation of the fran chise, and the like—would be ever again brought forward by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, because they (the Protec tionists) had established this great political truth, that when a liberal motion was proposed it bad occa sionally the chance of being carried. (Cheers, and great laughter.) They were now reaping the rapid results of their tactics, and financial reform had that night received a fatal blow. In future, sincere financial reformers must trust to " the new-bern zeal" of that party who for the last seventy years hadbheen la bouring to effect that object.—(Hear, hear.) T e pro position of his Hon. Friend, then , was to ask the House to consider whether they could not effect a retrench ment with regard to some 7,500,000/. Who doubted that they could ? But the Government said, " Leave it to us ; we will do it." But the Protectionists had of fered to leave it to them, and instead of accepting the offer the Government had appointed a Committee.— (Hear, heete) He oh: erved that t h e Chancellor of the Exchequer cheered. The Right Hon. Gentleman was, no doubt, glad to get rid of the question by transferring the responsibility of Ministers to a Committee. [fhe Chancellor of the Exchequer denied having cheered.] The Right Hon. Gentleman's voice was too agreeable to him, it was impossible to mistake it.— (Laughter.) He assured Honourable Gentlemen who had an abstract admiration of retrench ment, but who were afraid to vote for it, that it was as disagreeable to him as to them to cut down sala ries ; but had not society arrived at such a state in England that they were forced to take that step? That was the question, and that night they would be made to answer it.—(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been in,ide to the dreadful position of a clerk with 1001. a year having 10 or 20 per cent. taken from him; but was his position worse than that of the labourer?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for the West Riding said he would not vote for the motion, although he admitted its abstract justice, because it would be a condemnation of the new system. He would tell the Hon. Gentleman that this was not a condemnation of the new system; but it was one of the consequences of it. Its condemnation would come in due season.—(Cheers.) But one of ehe results of the now system was, that they were all obliged, in consequence of the increased burdens of the people, to examine the public expenditure of the country. Now, here was 7,500,0001. to begin with. He wanted this fairly to be understood out of doors. He did nut want them to run away with the sentimentality o f the Right Hon. Gentlemen the Member for Tamworth, and s,up pose that they were dealing with a very swan eti?d in significant sum distributed among a ver y faw . hard working men. They were no such th in g . He estimated that the motion, if carried, would probably lead to a saving of 1,000,0001. per annum, and perhaps more, and those who would form a judgment upon their conduct that night with regard to that important question were hard-working men, who were suffering hardly. Th e House must not bo permitted to ride off from the conse. a Qauces Oleic Tote uPo t h Q Se"IIIQU " wri Pti 9ll of night he would endeavour to confine himself closely to the motion before the House. The Hon. Member for Oxfordshire proposed an address to her Majesty for a revision of all the salaries in every department of the public service, with a view to reduction. His first objec tion to the motion was that it was unjust.—(Hear, hear.) When he moved for a Committee in a former session, he stated that the Government had made a revision of the department of Stamps and Taxes, and that many re ductions had been made in that department; to the amount of 250,0001.; he stated the number of persons who had been reduced in that department; and he stated likewise that with respect to offices belonging to the exe cutive Government a careful revision had been already made in several of them; that iu the Home-office and in the Treasury very considerable reductions had been made in the number of persons employed, and that all the other officer. were to be subjected to similar reductions. —(Hear, hear.) He was surprised, therefore, to hear the Hon. Member for Montrose now making the statement that the Government refused all revision.—(Hear, hear.) He had, moreover, recently proposed a Committee to consider the official salaries of persons holding seats in the two Houses, of judicial officers, and of the diplomatic establishment; and he would distinctly say that in th• face of all the revision already effected, and of the revi sion going on, to propose an address to the Crown for revision, as though no revision had taken place, was an unjust imputation upon the Goverment, which had done so much, and which had manifested its readiness to do mere.—(Hear, hear.) So far as to the nature of the mo tion of the lion. Member for Oxfordshire, made, be it remarked, after the Hon. Member had heard so re peatedly from the Government its determination to proceed to the utmost possible extent in the course of —th(weilaHes aorn, that. hear.) a e r nh . ) t el e ni T h aa h nd e , s o nnloy motion,con clusionc o n n re u v d i e s i r o to o suchna and bdedrawn circumstances, of red ue t fromion. fidence in the proposals of the Government, and that he conceived it to be the duty cf the Government to re sort to some other mode of revision.—(" Hear," from Col. Sibthorp.) The Hon. and Gallant Member, with his accustomed candour, accepted that interpretation. But the motion contained something more than this. It would be, in his opinion, an objectionable proposition did it merely extend to the Government of the day, but it further proposed to have an accurate revision of the salaries and wages in every department of the pub lic service. Let him first advert to the salaries. This proposal as to salaries must be taken in conjunction with the motion which the Hon. Member for Oxford - shire made last year, in conjuction with portions. ef t h_ e ie speech that evening, and in conjunction, too, w ith h declaration just made by the Honourabl e Mem ber for Buckinghamshire. The declaration was that there had been a great reduction in the prices of the necessaries of life, and that there fore there should be a proportionable reduction woul id say,nth salaries of public officers.—(Hoar, he ar.) at once, that the reductions t t he had gone on an entirely different Governmente tp r c i hear.) What they had done was this :—Whenever they found that more persons were employed than were wanted necessary point; for the public service, they had redueed the number by but to make reductions current price of superannuations andothaeerewordeintgottohtei, necessaries of life would be, in his opinion, unfair and ualus • -t to that g reat bod y of p erson s who were employed in the public service.—(llear, hear.) The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had said no snore than what every person having experience in the public service would say, when he commended so highly the services of those ten demon who were permanently employed in the public, departments. As to the comparison set up by the Hon. eleinber for Buckinghamshire between those gentlemen and a general's aide-de-camp it was altogether futile. —(llcar, hear.) It was these gentlemen, in the permanent service of the various departments, who carried on the whole machinery of the government, the chiefs of which were liable to change with every re volution of opinion in or out of the House. It was es sential to the public service to have men of such expe rience and ,practised ability permanently in the public) departments; and he would venture to say that were tho present Government to go out of office in consequence of any vote of the House or other circumstance, and Hon. Gentlemen opposite were to succeed them, they Wettlel act be ill office a single day before they .~; I ■