The Sun. — London, England, 1850-03-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT• HOUSE OF LORDS, March S. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool sack at Five o'clock. The Bishop f LONDON presented apt tition against relay systems is Lctoriea; also a petition praying fur the sanitary improvement in the city of London; and a pe tition from the journeymen tailors praying for a legisla tive measure compelling master tailors to have all work done on their premises. Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition in favour of union rating. • The Earl of MOUNTCASHELL presented a petition in favour of the measure for preventing the increase of beer-houses. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Knare,borough complaining of agricultural distres. ; also i.;ti petitions with a similar complaint from parishes in Li. colnshire, and pra3 ing for protection. He trusted thu L u interest would never remain satisfied with the pros:rat state of the law; they had always suffered themselves to b© too easily fleeced. DISEASED SHEEP. Th 9 NOBLE DUKE wished to draw the atten tion ( f the Government to the fast that certain for.ign sheep affected with small-pox had been !mix d ; some had been killed and others sold to dt-f:ay the expenses. The case was reported in • the newspapers as having been brought under the attentiv of the City authorities at tho Mansion-house. Ile shouki after Easter move for the appointment of a Folect Committee to consider the operation of the law permitting the importation of sheep and cattle. 13cINKRIll'I'CY CONSOLIDATION BILL. 131tOUGHAM postponed the second reading of thiL: Bitl for six weeks, as he intended to introduce some alterations in it. EDUCATION. • The Marquis of LANSDOWNE drew the atten tion of the House to a letter which he had received from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Talbot) in rela tion to the charges cf misstatement which he had brought against the speakers at the meeting. One of those misstatements was that not a shilling of the public money was given , to any school unless it adopted the • clauses imposed by the Privy Council. As an answer to the misstatement he now laid on the table returns which would prove that misstatement. He did not impute to the - lion. and Learned Gentleman that he bad wilfully mis represented, but that he had been misinformed; and in reply he laid on the table a list of between 400 and 500 Church of England schools which had received assist ance without subscribing to these clauses. Lord STANLEY regretted that the Noble Marquis had not communicated to his Hon. and Learned Friend . his intention of placing these papers on the table. understood that the cause of complaint on the part of the clergy of the Church of England was, that at pre sent no schools could receive assistance without accept ing those clauses. Possibly that was what his Hon. and Learned Friend had stated, and he might have been misreported. The Marquis cf LANSDOWNE said that those schools were receiving, and would continue to receive, assistance for any purpose except for building, but the statement was that it had not received a shilling of public money fur any purpose whatever, and that statement he denied, and the returns proved that those - statements were unfounded. With regard to misreport ing, all the reports in all the papers ascribed the same language to the Hor. and Learned Gentleman. PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL. On the order of the day for the third reading of this Bill bring moved, The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH moved certain verbal amendments in various clauses, for the purpose of leav ing it optional with the magistrate to declare meetings and processions unlawful, as it was already left optional to hen to interfere by force to disperse the meeting. The LORD CHANCELLOR objected to the pro posed alteration. It was left optional to the magis trate whether or not he should interfere by force to dis peree the meeting, because perhaps he might not have the me ms; but when once the meeting was declared uulaeful those present were under an obligation to dis peree and if they refused they might afterevards be pro vented and punished. Lord STANLEY objected to the wording of the Bill es most ambiguous and calculated to mislead the magis trates. Lord CAMPBELL said that the Bill was verbatim et litcratim the same as the Bill which had been introduced by the Noble Lord himself when he was Secretary for Ireland, and which had been the law of the land for many a long year. After a short conversation some of the amendments were agreed to. Lord BROUGHAM said, that he had come down to support the Duke of Wellington's amendment with re gard to the prohibition of carrying arms, but as he had been given to understand that the introduction of such an amendment would delay the passing of the measure until after the 17th of March, the great Ribbon anniver sary, he begged to suggest to the Noble Duke that be should withdraw his amendment. The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that on the motion for the second reading of the Bill, he had thought it his duty to suggest a provision, with a view to pre vent the evils which not unfrequently arise from the common practice of one party burying their dead with certain ceremonies, and another party endeavouring by ' violence; and with arms, to interrupt those ceremonies. He had wished to enable the magistrates of Ireland to take measures to effectually prevent the collisions likely to take place on such occasions, but if the clause was likely to risk the rej etion of the Bill, he was not the pets , n to press it. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH objected to the with draaei of the amendment. as he thought it essential to render the measure a perfsct one, but if the amendment was withdrawn, would the Government pledge itself to bring in au Arms Bill? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE refused t) give such a pledge, and said the subject would be brought before the House on the renewal .1 the Act enabling the Lord- Lieutenaat to proclaim disafftcted districts. After a short conversation the clause was withdrawn. Lord MONTEAGLE said the clause of which he had given notice did not go t:eyond the principle or scope of the Bill. The object of the clause which he proposed to introduce, was to render arms borne at any of these meet ines subject to forfeiture. He could not see what objec tion could be made to the clause, as it was calculated to carre out the object of the Government. In the present Bill the arms ware forfeited, if the meeting refused to disperse, and this only extended the penalty when arms • Is,n'e borne at all, and would effect what all were de tireue to effect—that the aepearing in arms in Ireland eheuld be put an end to. He would not, however, wish to do anything that might delay or erdanger the passage of the Bill through the other House of Par liament. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE objected to have the power of seizing the arms placed at the discretion of a peacelefficer. The Duke of RICHMOND thought it would be de sirable to prevent persons going to these meetings with • arena. The parties who appeared in arms could not take them for any good purpose. Earl GREY said the penalty of forfeiting the arms, on refusing to disperse, was sufficient. Lord STANLEY said the question really wag, whe thnpenalty of forfeiture should not be extended to groups ef twenty or thirty men parading with arms in the evening of dee day of meeting, and who would con sider themselves free to do so, the meeting having dis persed upon the request provided by the Bill. If the other House of Parliament were desirous to put down these processions, he could see no reason why they should refuse to extend the penalty of forfeiture as pro posed by this clause. The Bill would be sent down to the other House that evening, and therefore there would b. 3 ample time to pass it sufficiently early to prevent any 111; pica -ion t consequences. Toe Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he had no ob jection, but he doubted the expediency of endangering the passing of the Bill by introducing it. The Duke of RICHMOND suggested that the clause should be amended so as to confine the seizing of the arms to the magistrate present at the meeting. • Ailey some further conversation the clause, amended as pieipoied, was agreed to. The Earl or ELLENBOROUGH said there was a doubt with regard to the fourth clause, whether the in curring a penalty under this Bill would not take the offence out of the remedy or penalties of the common law, and he thought that point should be set at rest and male clear. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the words of th-.: first clause of the Bill would prevent the necessity of the Noble Earl's amendment, by effecting what he desired. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he was satis fied with such a declaration from the Noble Lord, and withdrew his amendment. The Bill was read a third time, and Pulsed . Their Lordships then adjourned. . HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 8, The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. --_____ NEW MEMBER. . MACKAY took the oaths and his seat for Kirk. badoright. PETITIONS. Mr. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from New castle praying--that-the provisions in the Australian Colonies Bill relating to publis worship might be ex punged.. Mr. MUNDY presented a petition from Derbyshire in favour of agricultural protection. Lord. ti. VANE prezented a petition from Staines in favour of county financial boards. Ztir, B. DENISON presented similar eitions from West Itidirsg of Yorkshire. I Corom;1 DONNE presented a petition from Westmeath fraying for •an alterdtion in the mode of txc outing public works in Ireland. ,7r. REYNOLDS presented several PA° r iti ns fcw the county of Dublin p ra yi ng f or the total repeal of the excise duty on rape ,. Mri tV ATK ENS. presented a petition from Woodstock in lave or. of the l'ita.rriageßill. A great nntabF r of smiilar petitions were presented. Lord DUDLEY STUART presented a pet i t i on by 17.08 journeymen teilors in London, pri)ing that au 1101140 might appoint a Committee to inquire -into the grievar.ces connected with their trade; also a petiti,,n from n public; meeting of carvers and gilders, praying for the repeal of , the duty on paper and ativer „iky as.d also the penny stamp on nevispapers• d t the same effect' from printers• in the an a petition. Krao,l f Mr. Johu Cartwell, in Essex -.:met, Strand. • - Mr. ELLIS,- presented a petition from Coventry i n • , • favour of the Marriage Bill. •Mr. ALBEII,MAN SIDNEY presented a petition ,• from Stafford to the Same effect. Colonel LINDSAY presented petitions from several pleas in Lanpashitejn favour of county 6nanciarbotrds. - Mr. GROGAN presented. a petition from Dui')lin apinst the Parliamentary Franchise Bill. 4' ~~.~+ REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS IN WESTMINSTER. In reply to a question from Mr. LUSHINGTON, re specting the appointment of Mr. Robert Daly Walker to be registrar of births and deaths in the district of Berwick•ttreet, in the parish of St. James, Westminster. Mr. BAINES said that gentleman bad been appointed by the Poor-law Commission because they thought him to be the moat fit and proper person for the office. It was true he lived at a greater distance from his district than was required by the Registration Act, but he bad promised to reside within the required distance, and the committee had no doubt about his fulfilling that promise. Sir J. WALMSLEY presented a petition from Bolton in favour of the Marriage Bill. Mr. BATESON presented a petition from London derry against the Landlord and Tenant Bill. Lord J. MANNERS presented a petition from Col chester praying fur an amendment of the Factory Act. THE MALT TAX. Mr. XIUNTZ wished to ask the Hon. Member who had gie en notice of a motion for the repeal of the malt tax when it was his intention to bring it forward? Mr. CAYLEY had intended to bring it on next Thursday, but, at the request of several friends out of doors, he now begged to give notice that he should not bring it on till after Easter. NAVIGATION-LAWS. Lord JOHN MANNERS, seeing the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade in his place, he wished to ask him if his attention had been di rected to the fact that a ship had been taken out of Liverpool without the owner's consent. Ho wished also to ask whether a foreign ship coming to this country to be registered ought to pay the duty under the existing Mr. LABOUCHERE said the facts of the case re ferred to by the Noble Lord had come to his know ledge, and instructions had been forwarded to the British Consul at Tampico to assist the owner in recovering his ship in the event of its being brought into that port. With regard to the second question, it had always been held that a foreign ship coming into this country for the purpose of being registered, was not liable to duty, but if it was brought in for the pur pose of being broken up, it was subjected to a duty of 25 ler cent. AUSTRALIAN COLONIES. Sir W. MOLESWORTH gave notice that in Com mittee on the Australian Colonies Bill, in the event of the amendment being carried that there should be two instead of one- legislative assembly in Australia, he should move that both of them should be elective. THE COASTING TRADE. Mr. NEWDEGATE said that he had been consider ably surprised by the differences which appeared on the face of some of the Government returns, and wishe4 therefore to ask the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade to give some explanation of the discre pancy which appears in the accounts of the coasting trade, as rendered in the Trade and Navigation Returns by the Board of Trade, and shows an apparent excess of clearances outwards over the entries inwards, both in the number of vessels and amonnt of tonnage. Mr. LABOUCIIERE said that the best reply which he could give wont.' be to read au extract from the re turns themselves. This the Right Hon. Gentleman then did, showing that the papers were all in unison, and concluded by saying that this Was the best answer that he could give to the question. HOSPITALS IN DUBLIN. Mr. GROGAN wished to ask the Right Honourable the Secretary for Ireland, if it be the intention of her Majesty's Government to withdraw the grants hereto fore made by Parliament for the maintenance of the Dublin hospitals. Sir W. SOMERVILLE was not aware that there was any intention on the part of Government to with draw these grants, though he did believe that there would be some change in the application of them. POOR-LAW UNIONS IN IRELAND. In reply to Colonel CIIATTERTON, Sir W. SOMERVILLE stated that he was not aware that any change was about to be made iu the constitu tion of the poor-law unions inlreland. ABOLITION OF THE OFFICE OF LORD-LIEU TENANT OF IRELAND. The LORD MAYOR of DUBLIN asked the Noble Lord at the head of the Government if it was the inten tion of her Majesty's Government to introduce or sup port, during the present session of Parliament, any measure for the abolition of the office of Lord-Liente nant of Ireland? He said he asked this question in con sequence of the excitement which prevailed on the subject in Dublin, and which was increased by an article in that gre it organ of public opinion, the Times news paper of yesterday. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his Hon. Friend would be aware that it would be impossible te abolish the office Lord-Lientenat of Ireland without introducing a Bill into that House, of which due notice would have to be given. He would say furtaer, that the Government had for some time been in consulta tion as to the propriety of introducing a Bill to abolish that cffiee—(Hear, hear)—and they had been in communication with the Lord-Lieutenant on the sub ject. If any such Bill were introduced it would be brought forward in the name of the Government, and not of that of any private Member of the House. VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL. In reply to an Hose. MEMBER, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it would depend upon the progress which might be made to-night in the COM mitt, e of Supply whether this Bill would be brought on again on Monday; but if it were agreed to in Commit tee, the Government did not propose to take the third reading until after Easter. ECCLESIASTICAL BILL. In reply to :‘lr. 110 RSMAN, Lord J. RUSSELL said he would not be able to take this Bill on the Bth of April, but might be able to du so on the Monday following. ARMY ESTIMATES. Oa the m.tion that the House should go into Corn m:ttee on the Army Estimates, Mr. FOX MAULE said he hoped that the Hon. end Gallant Member who had notice of a motion, on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Esti mates, to draw the attention of the House to the brevet which took place on the occasion of her Majesty's late visit to Ireland, would withdraw his motion ur postpone it to some future period. Majo: BLACKALL said he should be sorry to go on with any motion of his against the wish of the House, but as it was a subject which was not of general inte rest, he• had taken the opportunity of the Hon. Member for the West Riding's motion, when there would be a full House, to call the attention of the Il ,use to the subjee.t in question. Lord J. RUSSELL said that, however unimportant or brief the subject might be, if the Gallant Member persisted in going on with his motion, it would prevent the Hon. Member for the West Riding from going on with his motion. Major BLACKALL could not consent to withdraw his motion, although, being an exclusively military one, it would not be of such general interest. Ho had to complain that the officers of the line had been unfairly treated by the promotions which were made on the occasion of her Majesty's visit to Ireland. On occa sions like that promotions were made, but they were too often confined to the officers of the household troops, and he thought it was high time that this system of favouritism was put a stop to. He had no personal interest in bringing this matter before the House. He knew none of the gentlemen who were passed over on the occasion of the late brevet, while he was acquainted with many who enjoyed promotion under it, and if, therefore, he were to allow his feelings to prevail now, it ought to be rather against than for this motion. He had taken notice of this simply because it was a public duty, and not for the purpose of serving his own interest or the interest of any friend of his.—(Hear, hear.) Now, on the occasion of her Majesty's visit to Ireland a large brevet was granted, in which several majors were promoted to be lieutenant-colonels, five captains to be majors, and several other officers were similarly advanced. On the 15th February - he had moved for a return of the services of these officers who had been promoted in the brevet, and he had to complain that that return had not been laid upon the table. He was told as an excuse for the delay, that the return had to be referred to Dublin for verification. That he thought to be merely an excuse, but as the return was not at hand he would read a statement of the names of the officers who had been promoted and of those who had not been promoted during the late brevet. This the Hon. Gentleman then did. He hoped her Majesty would be induced, on these re presentations, to extend the brevet to those deserving officers who had In en passed over during the late royal visit to Ireland, and if this were done the cost would not be more than 2201. It had been suggested that distinc tions were only to be conferred upon officers in the Dublin garrisons, but that could not be so, for he had seen various honours conferred upon officers in Cork and other places through which her Majesty passed. The llon. and Gallant Member concluded by moving that an humble address be presented to her Majesty on the subject. Mr. FOX MAULE was sorry that his Hon. and Gal lant Friend should have thought it necessary to delay the business of the night by interposing a motion which furnished Much cer t tna o f hhe should f ee l i t necessary to as k t h e H ouse to reject. explcnation would de penden on areturnste his House, wh and ichhad ho uot thoughtyet that, as these returns required the name of every officer serving in Ireland at the time of her Majesty's visit, the nature of the service, whether on guard of honour or escort duty, on which they , had been employed, their rank, and date of corn mi,sion, the length of service at home or abroad, must necessarily be of a complicated nature, it was impossible for the Commander-in-Chief to have got these returns ready. The brevet was granted upon the principle that it was to be confined to the garrison of Dublin, because it was understood the senior officers of the line were stationed tie re. There is ere six other officers promoted besides those he had mentioned, in consideration that the officers promoted were attached to the personal stiff of the Lord•Lieutenaet or the C o mmander-in-Chief of the troop:, whom it was cuetomary to pro mote on all cc( a ions when brevefs were granted They could not stretch these honours be) and a certain extent. Ile regretted that such should be the case, but at the same time there wire considerations by which they were obliged to ba bound, and he could not therefore assent to the motion of his Hon. and Gallant Friend (Major Blacken) fur an address to her Majesty for a revi si Ai of the hrevef.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. lIUME said that he protested altogether against the motion of the Honourable and Gallant Gentleman opposite, and against the answer which had been given to it by the Government. The Gallant Member had talked of a paltry economy; for his own part he con cei,ed that every shilling that was added to the taxation was a gross and uncalled for imposition on the people.— (Hear.) The brevet, he believed, instead of having been too narrow, had been most shamefully and infa mously abused.—(Hear.) It was true that the Queen had the power ea promoting whosoever she liked, and sho might make as many dukes, and lords, and captains, and majors ag she liked. wherever she went—(Elear, hear, and great laughter)—but with respect to this especial case b e would remark that the original intention of the brevet was to promote officers el extra ordinary meri.. The rule had, however, degenerated, and the late brevet had added at least 100,0001. a year to the taxation of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Such was the case with the several brevets which had taken place prior to the year 1833; but instead of the brevet being a grant of the Crown it had been perverted into an organ of Ministerial patro nage.—(Hear, hear.) Such it ought not to be; and so long as the system was continued be should protest against any of those infranctions of that paltry economy which was so injurious to the public interest. Colonel DUNNE expressed his regret that such a scanty brevet had been issued on the occasion of the royal visit. Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would not press the motion to a division. He was one of those who thought a brevet ought never to take place, but if it did, it ought to be fairly dis tributtd, and be given to old officers, and not to young officers who had seen no service. He was compelled to say that an undue preference had been shown in the distribution cif the brevet in Dublin. Colonel RAWDON hoped that the Gallant Member would not press his motion. • After a few words of explanation from Major BLACK ALL, the motion was withdrawn. SUPPLY.—REDUCTION OF EXPENDITURE. On the question that the Speaker leave the chair, previous to the House going into a Committee of Elepply on the Army Estimates, Mr. COBDEN presented a petition from Liverpool. signed by 30,000 persons, in favour of the principles of financial reform. He complained of the manner in which the expenditure of the country was submiit:d to the Legislature, so different from the method of other constitutional countries, because when the esti mates were brought forward in the House, any material alteration which might be made in them was taken as a vote of want of confidence. The manner in which be had brought his motion forward was not with any such view, but it was simply to ask the House to come to a resolution embodying a return to the taxation of 1835. This course was no: a new one-1792 had been the standard the Whigs had quoted and wished to return to for a quarter of a century. He should ask the Government to show reasons why they would not sanction a gradual return to the standard of 1835. With the permission Of the house he would read a few figures showing the relative difference of expenditure in the years 1836 and 1850: —ln the year ending the sth of January, 1836, the interest of the national debt, fended and unfunded, was 28,514,0001.; in the year ending the sth January, 1850, it was 28,323,0004; the army expenses were in the first-named year 6,460,0001., in the latter year 6,549,0004; the navy ex penses 4,990,000/. and 6,942,000/. respectively. The ex penes of the Ordnance department in the first year amounted to 1,151,0001., in the last year te 2,323,000/., and the civil expenditure 4,225,000/, and 6,732,000/. fur the respective years. When he brought forward his financial statement last year he had stated that the excess of expenditure during the preceding year over that of 1835 was upwards of 10,000,0004 According to the estimates he found that the relative amounts of expenditure, in 1849 and 1835, were 53,550,000/. against 44,395,000/. He was not stating the matter from the estimates of the present year, but from last year ; and by that it appeared that the excess of expenditure of 1850 over 1835 was 6,453,0001. But taking the estimates of the ensuing year, he thought that a million further at least would be saved, making the total difference 5,500,000/. Well, that was encouraging, but it only showed that however desirous the Ministry might be of econo mising, there was such a pressure from with out, such an urgency from the several profes sional departments of the state, that unless the Govern ment were backed by a stern determination of that House they would never be able to accomplish that which they very possibly desired.—(Hear, hear.) How then was he to effect that saving? He would now show. It was to be understood that he had to deal with an ex cess of 6i millions. He proposed, in the first place, to reduce the army and navy and ordnance estimates by 5,820,000/. The remaining 630,0001. he intended to take from the civil expenditure, and from the expense of managing the office of Woods and Forests, which he suggested should be placed under batter management. He thought that the Hon. Gentleman would agree with him that these were things which ought not to be re peated. (Hear, hear.) If they east their eyes over this long list they would find many things which would riot have been allowed in this day, and which never could be repeated.—(Hear, hear.) But still they required a strict supervision by this House.—(Hear, hear.) In looking over those many items, and considering the cases of many of the parties receiving pensions, he found that it was not unreasonable to expect that a very con siderable saving would accrue to the state every year.--- (Hear.) He next came to salaries and allowances, and in alluding to that portion of the subject he might observe that Hon. Gentlemen opposite would agree with him in first noticing the large sum expended for the support of a number of Commissioners.—(Hear. hear.) lie thought we had too many commissions. He should pre fer:to commissioners one well-paid responsible, intelligent functionary.—(Hear, hear.) When Home Ministers and Foreign Ministers are entrusted with such powers as they possessed, he could not understand why they should not give to an individual of good talents and character the responsibility of commissioners. The work would be better and cheaper done by such an individual than it would be by a board of commissioners. —(hear, hear.) fie believed it was Jeremy Bentham who said that a board was a screen; and it Ras nut a bad one. He next came to the diplomatic salaries and pensions. Now there, he thought, they had a rich harve•et to reap.—(Sitar, hear, and laughter.) They had a sum of 172,395/. as the total charge for one }air for diplomatic services and pensions. From the detials of that charge he would give them a few instances. There was a sum of 10,0001. a year to the British Ambassador in France; 9,9001. a year to the British Ambassador in Austria. Now, let them just see what were the charges incurred under the same heads by the Government of the United States ; and let it be borne in mind, that although he was ready to grant that no comparison could fairly be insti tuted between the expenditure necessary for the head of the state under a monarchy like this, and the head of a republican government like that of the United States, he thought he was justified in contending that there was no good re anon why the necessary expenses of the representative of the one country at a foreign court should greatly exceed those of the representative of the other country at the same court. The British Ambassa dor at Paris received 10,000/. a year, the American Am bassador at Paris received '2,000/. a year; the British Ambassador at Vienna received 9,9001. a year, the American Minister at Vienna received 1,000/. a year; the British Ambassador. at Constantinople received 6,300/. a year, the American Minister at Constantinople received 1,300/. a year; the British Envoy at St. Peters burgh received 6,6001. a year, the American Envoy at St. Petersburgh received 2,0001. a year.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that many of those charges ought to be sup pressed altogether. There was, for instance, a sum of 3,4004 for a Minister in Hanover, and there was a sum of 4,000/. for a Minister in Bavaria. Now, he could see no necessity for either of those charges; and he believed that in private they were denounced by every Member of this House, whatever might be the language which Hon. Gen tlemen held upon such subjects in public. E ver y one w as aware that such functionaries could do no good, while they sometimes did mischief. His (Mr. Cobden's) firm belief was, that they might reduce the cost of their diplo matic services by one-half ; and even then they would be paying twice as much as the people of the United States paid for the same services. He came next to the courts of justice. Under the head of courts of justice in the civil expenditure he found for the year ending the sth of January, 1850, a charge of 1,105,0001.; while during the year ending on the sth of January, 1836, the cost under the same head amounted to 430,0001. It was true that that increase had arisen mainly from the transfer to that item of a sum of 551,000/. for the Irish constabulary force. But he still thought that a con siderable reduction might be made in the salaries and expenses of our judicial establishments. He was one of those who considered that it would be very bad economy to pay judges too low; but he also believed that there was great room for a reduction in the salaries of our judges when he found them amounting to sums of 5,000/., 6,0001., 7,0001., and 8,000/. a year. In Ireland, in parti cular, he found that salaries were paid to the judges wholly disproportioned to the resources and condition of that country. One judge in Ireland received not less than 8,0001. a year, while in the United States the highest judicial functionary in the world, the judge of the Supreme Court at Washington, who decided interna tional disputes between the several states and interpreted with his colleagues without appeal, the constitution of the United States, received only 1, 2001. a year, and some of the most eminent men of the age had filled that post. Then there were the miscellaneous charges on the Consolidated Fund, which had amounted to 388,0004 last year, against 274,000/. in the :year ending sth of January, 1836. He found that out of the sum so spent last year upwards of 50,0001. had been devoted to de fraying the 'costs of commissions in Ireland. Now, surely these commissions were not to last for ever, and some of them might he believed be managed at less ex pense. He next passed to the great item . of miscella neous charges on annual grants of Parliament which had amounted last year to 3,911,000/. against 2,144,0004 in the year ending on the sth of January, 1836. Under that item came public works, all the salaries and ex penses of the public departments and all our colonial and consular establishments. Why every word he read indicated an excessive amount of ex penditure under that head. There were, fur instance, the public works. Why, the House they were in, or rather the House which they hoped to get into, was a scandal to them.—(Cheers.) Ho had no voice in the arrangements for the construction of that house, and perhaps if he had had one he should have erred like ()the! Members; but it seemed to him that from the be ginning it had been a most melancholy f They bud adopted the florid Gothic style of architecture —the must exl.ensive which it was possible for the mind of man to conceive—and he should f urt h er sa y that their entire proceedings in the House of Commons, from the pinnacle of the new house down to the sweepings of the floor, were characterised by the most disgraceful waste arid extravagance. He proposed that there should be a saving of 6d0,000/. in the expenditure to which he referred, and he believed that the Honourable Gentleman, the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), would guarantee him a still greater sav ing in the course of a few years, because that Hon. Member had advocated last year a large re duction of the salaries of our public servants, and a general cutting down of our establishments. He should wast a I proceed o h t o e w t h h i a c t h h item ad e w x li c i i c t e h d , a t s h i e t mo a s s t t he largest,discussion —he meant the cost of our armaments. He had last year detailed to the House the various successive increases which had been made to our military and navel estab lishments from the year 1836 to the year 18 4S, for the purpose of meeting certain special emergencies; and he had then pointed out, as he should again remind the House, that when those emergencies, such as the Oregon boundary dispute, the Marine boundary dispute, the M'Leod affair, and others, had passed awa3, the expen diture which had been incurred for the purpose of meeting them had remained unchanged. They came to the discussion of the subject at that moment with the additional value of another year's experience. They were another year further removed from that great crisis in the history 'of Europe which almost every body had expected was to lead to the most calamitous consequences in the form of inter national wars. Now, he thought, thee if there was one consoling feature —one drop of sweetness in the cup of gall, which had been poured out upon Europe during the last two years, it was that they had elicited from all that turmoil and convulsion the fact that there was no disposition among the great bulkiof the people of any nation to pass their freptiers and to make war upon neighbouring states.—(Hear, hear.) He spoke of the people as distinguished from their governments. They had always been told that when Louis Phillippe should die the French people would break their prison -bars and ravage Europe; but they ha l seen that when the French people had got the reins into their own hands they had manifested no in clination to carry war into their neighbours' territoriee Now, he did not want to assume that the millees:umlhad come, and that there could never again be an inter national war; and neither did he ask them totally to dis mantle their ships, and to leave their ports defenceless; but he asked them to concur with him in this—that the experience of the last twelve months had rather con firmed than invalidated the statement he had made last year as to the safety of our effecting a gradual reduction of our armaments. He had alluded last year to the state of our relations with our colonies, and a most important change bad since been proposed by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in those relations. The Noble Lord had lately proposed that a system of self-government should be extended to the colonies—that the people there should have the right of forming their own constitutions, of levying their own taxes, and fixing their own tariffs— powers which the Government of the United States did not grant to the different Members of their union; and he would put it to the Noble Lord whether, after those concessions had been made to the inhabitants of our co lonies, he could expect that the more highly-taxed and less-prosperous people of this country would continue to defray the expenses of the troops who acted there solely as a military police?--(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cobden) believed that no Minister with a head on his shoulders could entertain any such expectation. He knew no mo tive which could account for the continuance of such a system, except a desire on the part of the heads of our Government to retain a certain amount of patronage in Downing-street. He believed that by the withdrawal of the forces in our distant colonies, the consequent di minution of duty in our army, and the saving of the service of the troops constantly traversing the seas on the way-to and from those colonies, we might effect a reduction in our army of 20,000 bayonets. Then, again, they should recollect that the multiplication of railways in this country, since 1835, had vastly increased the efficiency of our military force. General Gordon had stated, before a Committee of that House, that the faci lity of communication afforded by railways enabled a battalion to do the work of a small army; for by that means troops could be conveyed from London to Manchester in nine hours—that is to say, they could be conveyed in that brief period over a distance over which they could not march in less than 17 days. Then, again, the construction of railways bad greatly dimi nished the necessity for accumulating ordnance stores in different parts of the country, as those stores could be easily and rapidly conveyed from place to place. He did not wish to assume that in this country the army was to bo looked upon as a means of maintaining order, for he clung to the belief—which had been the belief of the Whig party thirty years ago—that a free and constitu tional state ought not to rely upon an army for any such purpose; but he said that in any case a bayonet at pre sent was capable of doing far more than a bayonet in the year 1835. But that was not his only reason for believing that they might safely effect a reduction in our army. He found that since the year 1835 our armed force had been largely increased in various ways. We had, for instance, 14,800 pensioners prepared for military service; we had 9,200 dockyard men enrolled in bat talions and regularly drilled, and we had 3,000 county constabulary. Then they had an increase of more than 26,000 armed men, and there had besides been a large increase of the constabulary in Ireland. Now let them look at the case of Ireland. The unhappy state of that country had always been made an excuse for keeping up a large army. But Ireland was at present tranquil. It was proposed that they should pass a measure for giving to Ireland a better repre sentative system, and he believed that such a measure would do more than the presence of a dozen regi ments in that country to keep the peace there. Ireland was about to be brought within a short day's journey of London. and he thought it need not be treated in any respect for the future as a conquered province.—(Hear, hear.) There were at present in Ireland '25,000 regular troops; there was an increase of 5,000 in the Irish con stabulary; and there were more than 5,000 available pensioners; so that there were altogether in that country between 35,000 and 36,000 armed men. He believed that was double the amount of the armed fore in Ireland in the year 1835. He saki, therefore, that the army in that country might be very much reduced. He believed that our army generally might not only be reduced, but that considerable economy might be practised in its or ganization. He would venture to say that the organize dun of our army was the most expensive in Europe, and was maintained more especially for officers.—(Hear, hear.) lie found that a reduction had been effect- din the number of our rank and file, but he did not find that a corresponding reduction had been effected in the num ber of our officers' A reduction to the amount of 1,800 men was at present announced; but in that instance also he saw no indication of a corresponding reduction in the numbers sf the superior grades of our army. In our cavalry regiments especially he thought that a more eco nomical organiz ition could be effected. He had shown to an Austrian general offi ler, who had taken a distinguished pert in the Hungarian war, a list of the men and officers in our cavalry regiments, and on seeing it, that general officer had laughed outright. He had stated to him (Mr. Cobden) the number of officers in the cavilry regiments of Austria as compared with the number in the cavalry regiments of this country; and the result of that statement was, that in the Austrian cavalry m i regi ments there was one officer t o 28 men , w hil e n the En,;lish Guards there was one officer to 11 men; and in our cavalry regiments of the line there was one officer offionceers than two Austrian cavalry English cavalry regimnt had 2 to o l p 2 er m e e e ti n ; cent. so more regiments.—(Hear, hear.) He should advise her Ma jesty's Ministers to alter that system if it were only for that the purpose of taking away an argument used by the Liverpool Financial Reform Association, where they alleged that our army was kept up for the purpose of providing situations for our aristocracy. Let them recollect that while they diminished the number of their men, and yet retained their officers, they would part with their most effective force, and preserve only that which was most expensive. He should pass to a consideration of the state of our navy. That navy had been immensely increased since the year 1835; the cost of maintaining it had been increased since that year from 4 ,099,0001. to 6,942,0001. If they compared the state of our navy with that of the United States, they would find that while that coun try had only one line-of-battle ship at sea, and bad a number of smaller vessels, which were the best fitted for ac ting as a police force for merchant ships, we kept at sea a number of enormous line-of-battle ships, which were no more fitted for acting as a police force on the ocean, than a military force with a park of artillery would be fitted for pursuing pickpockets in the streets and alleys of London._(gear, hear, and a laugh.) He feared that our Government had only kept up those enormous vessels in order to find preferment fur the members of our higher classes. There war one great reason why they should reduce our navy at present, and which reason did not exist in the year 1835. Since that year there had been constructed in this country a vast number of mercantile steam-vessels which might. if ne cessary, be employed for the national defence; and in that way our means of meeting any dangerous emer gency had been greatly increased. It had been ascer tained by a Committee of that House last year that we. had 180 mercantile steameressels of 400 tons, and 35 mercantile steam-vessels of more than 1,000 tons, each of which could be made ' available for warlike purpose in the course of six or eight weeks. He saw, therefore, in the present state of the naval resources of this country ample reasons why we should diminish our naval esta blishment ; and he should add that he certainly did not think that our fleet was at present doing us any use or any credit.—(dear, hear.) He did not think there would be any great cause for regret if those Government line-of-battle ships at present in the Piraeus were laid up in ordinary, or on the stocks. He thought we would do well to imitate the polioy of the United States, which maintained a small naval force in commission, but which from the resources and prosperity of her inhabitants—a prosperity which was , in a great measure, owing to the lightness of her taxation —were known to be formidable, and were consequently respected by other powers. Mo ney formed the sinews of war, and a wealthy and flourishing country like the United States, without great armaments might be more formidable than countries like France or Austria, encumbered with bayonets, but pos sessing only empty excbequers. But let it be remem bered that he was not advocating disarmament ; he only wished that our naval and military forces should be re duced to an amount which would enable us to maintain them for 10,000,0001. instead of 15,000,0001., the sum expended on them last year. Then, again, there was the ordnance department. He believed that, even in the service as well as among the public, a belief prevailed that the arraneements in that department might be ma terially improved. It had been ascertained by a Com mittee, of which he had been a member, that 15 per cent. might be saved in the cost of our ordnance stores, with out any diminution in the efficiency of that branch of the public service. Theo, again, he believed that valuable reforms might be effected in the arrangements with re spect to our artillery, our sappers and miners, and engi neers. He had beets told by a high military authority m ight be effected if a large that a very g reat saving number of our artillery corps were stationed in such places as Malta and Gibraltar, where they could be very usefully empl o y e d, and where troops of the line were at ' present kep t on a space too limited to allow of their going thr oug h the manoeuvers which would ensure to tof discipline. He proposed them the highest amount that the cost of our armaments should be fixed at 10,000,0001. a year. Now, let it be remembered that that was eearly twice as much as the whole expense of the Government of the United States before the Mexican war, and that it was more than the whole expense of the Prussian Government. Would any body tell him that, under these circumstances, he was proposing to dismantle our ships, and to leave our payment of head-money 'or the captures of Tirstes, ports defenceless? He asked Hon. Gentlemen to put this would have l seoefti a reduction of mare than alongside of the danger of having only 10,000,000/. to 60 ),0001; on the army, 122,000/ ; : iii on tee ardnauce, pay for our miiitary establishments—if there would be 198,000/, in round numbers. With respect to the army any danger in such a proceeding—he asked them to ' the expenditure had been successively eituainished aitLin put alongside of it the danger of leaving their taxation the List three years. He held in his hand an account in the state in which it was at present placed. He con- of the numbers of taco in the army for the last five fesssd he was not one of those who thought that this sears, which showed that in 1846 the number was country was lightly taxed. He believed some gentleman 100,000; in 1847, 108,000; in 1848, 113,000; in 1849, in the City had lately written a pamphlet for the pur- 103,000; and in tee present year, 99,000, in round num pose of showing that this country was lightly taxed; bers.—(Hear, hear.) These facts proved to detsionstra and the mode in which that gentleman bad attempted tion that instead of our naval and military establishments to establish his position was by comparing our present tieing in a state of successive augmentation, they had expenditure with our expenditure during the last three succeeded in placing them within the last three years in years of the war, and, next, by comparing our ex- i a course of successive diminution. Since 1848 the de penditure with that of some of the countries on the I crease in the effective service bad been no less than Continent. Now, it might be true that we were not 14,700 men in round numbers. In connexion with this more heavily taxed in proportion to our wealth than we subject, he would advert to a point which had de had formerly been. But what he contended was, that servedly attracted attention of late years to the navy our wealth did not pay our taxation.—(Hear, hear.) He setimates—namely the objectionable practice which had believed that if wealth bore its proportionate share of prevailed of having more nien borne than were actually taxation in this country they would not have rich men voted. This practice had now been entirely discon in the City writing pamphlets to show that we were tinued, asd in the present year there was not a single lightly taxed.—(Hear, hear.) Why, 35,000,000 L or I man borne on the naval force who had not been voted 36,000,0001. a year were raised in this country upon by the House. The number of seamen and marines articles of consumption. For his part he believed that borne this year were 549 less than were voted; and this many years could not pass with ou t an alt e ration, or an was the first year for several years past in whi c h it b a d abolition of many of our taxes—of those taxes which been found practicable to carry this desirable object pressed on the industry, manufacturing or agricultural, into effect. But while be corrected a misconception into of the country. They had at present a surplus of which his Hon. Friend seemed to have fallen on these 2,000,0004, and it was said that they ought to apply that points, it could not be denied that of late years there surplus towards the payment of a portion of the national had been a very considerable increase in the naval and debt. Now, he was a decided advocate for paying the military expenditm e, and the attention of the House had national debt—for paying either the principal or the in- frequently been called to its real causes. In the first terest of that debt; but it appeared to him that a sum of place, it was caused by works of defence of grew inagni -2,000,000/. was but a poor beginning for the payment I tude, which bad entailed a very heavy, though tempo of a debt of 800,000,000/. He did not thick that they 1 rary, charge on this country—such as dockyards, and ought to pay off the debt contracted of late years works at Malta and Gibraltar. He believed those works any more than the debt of a former period ; were undertaken from a strong sense of their absolute and indeed he looked upon it as a debt far less ob• necessity on the part of those best able to judge. Money jectionable in its origin. The Right Hon. Baronet the i thus spent was not wasted, but at the same time he re- Member tor Tamwotith had in the year 1842 commenced j joiced to believe that that large source of expenditure a new financial system in this country by relaxing the had been greatly checked if not altogether stopped. bonds upon industry and giving free scope to trade and t Another great cause of this additional expenditure commerce. The Right Hon. Baronet had imposed an since 1835 had been the necessity of creating esteblish incotne•tax; and he (Mr. Cobden) hoped that they would meats for steam-vessels; but this was a charge which, never part with it, although he was anxious to see its 1 though great at first, would not continue. With respect pressure differently distributed. But the financial policy to this, also, he rejoiced to believe that it was not of the Right Hon. Baronet in the year 1842 had formed likely to remain the heavy burden which it had been a new era in the history of this country—(Hear, hear)— ! hitherto. The third cause of the increase in our mili sad the present Government would not surely forfeit the tary expenditure, to which he would ptesently more par credit they might obtain by following up the policy of I titularly allude, was the necessity of affording protection the Right Hon. Baronet. The Governm e nt would be so •to our colonial possessions, which had s o much increased pressed by those who were suffering impediments to in- since 1835. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for dustry by indirect taxation, that they would be compel- Tamworth on the budget of 1845 went fully into that led to part with their surplus of only 2,000,000/. to satisfy subject, and detailed to the House the reasons which, in those who were clamorous for a remission of taxes, nut t his opinion, justified that increase of military expendi because they took so much money from their pockets, but ture The gross increase in the civil expenditure from because they were found to interfere with the progress of 1835 to 1849 still remained to be accounted for. He business, whether in paper-making, in printing, or had already stated that only the smaller half of the anything else. He therefore submitted that any Go- 6,000,000/. was justly attributable to the military expen vernment which might be in power must contemplate a diture, and he now proceeded to call the attention of the much larger surplus than 2,ooo,ooo4—(Hear, hear.) House to the causes which had swelled the civil expen- How was it possible, save by the plan which he had diture during that period. The charges on the Consoli proposed, to reduce the taxation, unless altering the sys- dated Fund had been increased by 712,0001., and the mis tern altogether, or increasing the income-tax to 10 per cellaneous estimates for civil services by 1,766,0001. in cent.? That the Government would not do he knew; round numbers making together a total of 2,478,0001.—a but they could do what he proposed, if the House would j larger sum than the real increase in the naval and [Dili only help him to press it on them. They could reduce I wry expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) This increasoed ex the taxation to the standard of 1835. That would give penditure for civil purposes might he classed under a surplus which would make the present surplus a grow- three general heads : those charges which, in a ing surplus, relieve industry to the amount of great measure, had at various times and for 10,000,0004, and afford the means of accomplishing various purposes been forced ,on the Govern. something important. Divide it in two. With half they meet by that House—(Hear)—acted upon, doubtless, might convert some part of the debt into terminable by the demands and opinions of the various con annuities, and with the other relieve the industry of stituencies; next, the charges rendered necessary by un the people by taking the taxes off paper, malt, hops, foreseen calamities; and, thirdly, charges now defrayed and other articles. Without one of those two courses by a vote, which were formerly provided for from other how could they do anything more than child's play? sources. Under the first head he would class harbours He should, therefore, put it before the House whe- of refuge, which had been forced on the Government, then there was not less danger in trusting to their forming a new charge of 141,0001.; payments in aid of own good intentions and to Divine Providence, county rates, 148,0001.; expenses connected with the than in 10,000,0001. expended annually in arms- poor-law, 198,000/.; Parliamentary and other printing, wants? Was it not better to trust to these elements which ha quite agreed with his Hon. Friend in thinking of security, and have it in their power to relieve the most monstrously extravagant, but to which he feared it country from taxation, and give contentment to the would be very difficult for the Government to offer any eople in the way which he had proposed? It was to efficient check unless it received more support from the enable them to take that course that he wished the ilouse.--(flear, hear.) Under this head he found an House to pass this resolution, which was no vote of want of confidence, but rather a vote of confidence. There was a power in this country which resisted im provement—a power which did not appear in that [louse, but worked by covert means, and required the counteraction of that House. He asked them, then, if ~xpensv of 82,0001. The prison and convict service showed an excess of expenditure amounting to 400,0001.; and .41neation, including the Irish colleges, about 225,0001,; the office of Registrar-General and the Copyhold Com missioners, 71,0001.; the British Museum building and establi,hment, 40,000/. He now took the second class, they regarded the interests of those who sent them there, not to regard this as a party question, and not to go out on the opposite lobby because it was ho who had brou t ht it forward; but to vote bona fide on its merits in favour of the motion. The Hon. Member concluded, amidst that caused by unforeseen calamities, and first among these he wuuld take the burning of the old Hunses of Parliament, which he confessed had led to another un foreseen calamity—namely, the great expunse rf he new House 4. Under this head there was an expenditure of loud cheers, by moving—" On going into Committee of Supply, that the net expenditure of the Government for the year 1835 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 260, 1847), amounted to 44,422,000/. ; that the net ex penditure for the year ended the sth day of January, 1850 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 1, 1850), amouotesi to 50,853,0001.; the increase of upwards of 6,000,0004 having been caused principally by successive augmenta tions of our warlike establishments and outlaysfordelen sive armaments. That no foreign danger. ornecessary cost of the civil Government, or indispensable disbursements for the services in our dependencies abroad, warrant the continuance of this increase of expenditure. That the taxes required to meet the present expenditure im pede the operations of agriculture and manufactures, and diminish the funds fur the employment of labour in all branches of productive industry, thereby tending to produce pauperism and crime, and aiding to the local and general burdens of the people. That, to diminish these evils, it is expedient that this House take steps to reiuce the annual expenditure, with all practicable speed, to an amount not exceeding the sum which, within the lust fifteen years, has been proved to be sufficient for the maintenance of the security, honour, and dignity of the nation." 45,0001. The distress in Ireland entailed sn expendi , Lure of 163,0001. The third class embraced those ex penses which were now provided f)r by a vote of the House, and formerly were furnished from other sources. There were the fees of the House of Commons and the Government officer, for in. stance, which were brought in aid of the estimate in 1835, but were now paid into the Consolidated Fund, waking a difference of 100,0001. In the Postage there wai a difference consequent upon the abolition of f ranking .f 44,0001.; in the constabulary of Ireland an increase of 570,0001.; the expense of the police in London and Dublin, an increase of 40,0001.; consular establishments in China and other parts of the world, 53,0001. Ho had thus shown that those statements which his Honour able Friend invited the House to concur with him in waking, that the increase of the expenditure since 1835 was mainly owing to the increase in our military estat -liihments, were incorrect. He now proceeded to what up ,,eared to him a still more important branch of the motion —namely, the pledge which he called on the House to wake, chat they would speedily revert to the scalc of expenditure of 1835, having especial rclerenee to the naval and military expenditure. The 11. m. Membor had laboured much to prove that, in reality, they would do Mr. LABOUCITERE heartily concurred with the Hoe. Member for the West Riding in calling upon the House to view this question in no party spirit. but to deal with it solely with refsrence to its merits. Had the Honourable Member confined himself on this occasion, before the estimates were considered, in laying before the House his own views upon the great variety o , topics on which he had touched, he should have been far from asserting that he had not taken no more by adopting his resolutio n than to - soy—" We hive every desire to revert to that scale; we do not mean to do it in two or three years; all we moan to ,ay is, if circumstances are altogether unaltered, and , :o new occurrence takes place, we have every desire t , revert to that scale." He held such a proceeding to be altogether unparliainentary and unprece dented. He should be as glad as his Honourable t-iend to see the House able to reduce the burdens of a useful course, for the House could not de otherwise than profit by the intelligence and rest arch which th, Hon. Member was able to bring to bear upon any sub ject to which he addressed himself. But the Hou. Member had gone far beyond that. He had asked the House to. twice to a specific resolution, which it would be his duty earnestly to urge the impropriety of acced ing to. He trusted he should be able to show the House that unless they intended to affirm a proposition in direct contradiction to facts which could be proved, and make a pledge of a most impolitic description, which it might be impossible to redeem with safety, and impossible to retreat from with consistency and honour, it was their duty to their country, and their duty to those principles of economy which he admitted ought to be foremost in their minds, to reject the proposal of the Hon. Member. The motion was a repetition of that which the Hon. Member made last year. He again pledged the House to revert to the expenditure of 1835, and again ascribed the increase which had taken place in the expenditure of this year, as com pared with 1835, to successive augmentations in our warlike establishments. He would endeavour to show, in the first place, that the statement was incorrect and that the pledge would be highly impolitic. There was one difference between his motion this year and that of last year, to which the Hon. Member did not make even a passing allusion. It was the only difference, but a most important one. This year he stated the differ ence in the expenditure of the two periods betweet, which he instituted the comparison to be six millions; last year he stated it to be ten millions—(Hear, hear) — and yet, notwithstanding this, his Hon. Friend still went on using the words " successive augmentations," and asked the House to apply the same terms, he himself confessing to a difference of not less than four millions between this year and last.—(Hear.) He could only say he heartily hoped if his Hon. Friend renewed hie motion year after year, he would, year after year, have to alter that particular part of his motion. On this oc casion he could not help thinking that the statement of his Hon. Friend refuted the terms of his motion. It was incorrect to say that the difference of upwards of six millions between this year and 1835 was caused prin cipally by successive augmentations for warlike establishments and outlays on expensive arma ments. He could show the House that when they came to sift these accounts and examine the real increase, the increase would be found not to exceed 2,365,0001. in round numbers. He held in his hand a , comparative statement of the expenditure in 1835 and 1849. He found the expenses of the debt 28,500,000/. in 1835, and in 1849 28,323,0001., in round numbers,l showing a decrease on this head. The charges on the , Consolidated Fund showed an increase of 1,712,0001.; army, 142,000/.;,navy, 2,800,0001.; ordnance, 1,180,0001.; i miscellaneous services, 1,766,0001.; showing a total in crease of about 6,400,0001.; of this a considerable propor tion appeared under the head of army, navy, and ordnance —namely, 4,166,0001. But in order to form a just com parison between the expenditure of the two years, allow- ances must be made in consequence of the different mode of making up the accounts, the excess in the rates not being now, as formerly, applicable to the different ser vices. This made a difference of 642,0001. Then, again, the sum formerly received in aid from the sale of old stores was now paid into the Exchequer. This, in 1849, amounted to 421,000/. That, again, the Post office packet service, part of the expenses of which was formerly defrayed by the Post-office department, formed part of the naval estimates of 1849, amount ing in round numbers to 737,0001. If the House Would add these figures together, they would find the real increase in our warlike establishments in 1849 as compared with 1835, only 2,365,000/. He next pro ceeded to deal with the allegation put forth by the lion Member, that the increase in our expenditure had been successive. —(Hear, hear.) He should be able to :thew that this statement was not consistent with fact. In point of f,et, since 1848, instead of there being a sue cpssi ve augmentation, there had been a successive de crease in our expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) Ia the early part of the period, since the year 1835, there war, no doubt, ell increase, but since 1648 there lisd been a sucensssive dimieutton. These were the reductions made in the expenditure of the army, navy, and ord "nee, as stated last year by his Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose ad wince ho deeply deplored, and whose place he felt se inadequate to supply on au occasion like this. ' His Right Honourable Friend then stated that last year the reduction in the navy, as compared with the preceding sear, 1848, was 730,000/ ; army, 378,0001; ordnance, 337,0001. in round numbers, showing altogether a dimi nution of 1,447,0001. It was to be observed also that the estimates on the table sho wed a reductionin these three departments, over and above those of last year, of, on the navy, 42 4 , 0001 . — in which there would have been a still further reduction of MAW. but fur the the country and the military establiehments to the same •cale as that of 1835; but he should not dt al frankly with the Hou,o or the country it he expre"ssed any san guine hope as to the practicability of such a reductiois. ae was, therefore, unwilling to concur in giving a p:edge which he might be unable t I redeem. Bat it was by no means correct to say that the proposition 0f the Hon. Aember was to reduce the naval and military expendi ture to the level of 1835. His proposal was in truth to reduce it much below that mark, unless he proposed to compel Ireland to bear the whole burden of her consta bulary again, and !evoked the grants for education and sther purposes which kad been made since that time. In point of fact, the House would find that his proposal was , o reduce the naval and military expenditure by no less than 1,300,0001. below the scale of 1835. His Hon. Friend bad told him of his conversations with a Hunga rian general, and how he laughed :at our skeleton regi ments with so many officers, and compared ours with the Austrian system. Now he suspected the Hungarian general laughed not because there were so many officers, but because there were so few soldiers.—(blear, hear.) the truth was, ours west% sy,tern based on real economy, and was so formed as to m a i n t a i n t h e army on t h e ! smallest possible scale compatible with the means of ex tending it as emergencies might arise. —(Hear, hear.) It was all very well fir the Hungarian general to talk in this way, but what was the Austrian as compared with the English army? It amounted to considerably more than 400,000 men.— (Hear.) His Hon. Friend tied told them that the tries! policy of this country was not to have enormous !level and military establishments, hut to preserve a well filled exeh: Tier, and a contented and prosperous people. In that he agreed with him, but some observations made by his lion. Friend in the course of his speech convinced him that his lion. Friend would agree with him iu saving that this was all a ques tion of degree, because his lion. Friend was no more for turning off our soldiers and laying up our ships than he was. The question was, were our naval and military es tablishments excessive? He contended they were not. Depend upon it the true economy was to maintain them in an effective state, and so as to be capable of ex pansion at any time. His Hon. Friend wished the House to make a declaration to this country and the coloni.'s that henceforth a change of system must be adopted, and that we should withdraw our military protection from the dependencies of the British empire. Now he did not deny that it was the duty of the Government to watch nar rowly this branch of the national expenditure, and em brace every fit and suitable opportunity of keeping it within due limits, and reducing it, if possible, within still smaller bounds, nor had the Government neglested this duty. As a general principle he thought that in all which related to matters of internal police the colonies might be fairly expected to bear the expense. With . re gard to Imperial interests, it was the practice i n former tittles, before the French revolutionary war, for the co lonies of this country to bear, not the whole, but a share of the burdens of the mother country in providing the means of Imperial defence. He was not prepared to say that prudently, cautiously, and considerately, that prin ciple might not be again carried in ou r dealings with our colonies to a greater degree than a t p resent. Nothing, however, was more to be deprecated than a hasty and in considerate affirmation of principles which, when . carried out to the British colonies, would only serve to stimulate the efforts and assist the machinations of the disaffected. He was not surprised that his Honourable Friend should have touched on the subject of the colonies, for no doubt on questions of military establishments it was impossible not to take them in account. He said " mi litary establishments," because he thought the colonies of this country, scattered over the whole world, were the means of employing a smaller number of hips than she would be compelled to do without them. There was no doubt, however, that this military exp tu diture—the cost of paying troop, barracks, ord nauce , and transport— which fortned w s e o re l f a .i r i g r e ly n a p u r r o i p b o u r t t a i b o l n e the dead weight of the army, of to the colonial service. He admitted it was desirable and pratticab!e gradually to reduce this branch of expendi ture, but het arnestly deprecat al precipitate measures. The circumstances of our colonies were widely different. Putting out of the question M a lta a n d Git ra l tar , an d confining his observations to those which might be strictly called colonies—he would begin with Australia. That colony was not exposed to any foreign attack, or danger from the aboriginal inhabitants; and, except in one particular pert, w as p er f ec tly a bl e t o pro t ec t it se lf against evils consequent upon being brought in contact with a convict population. The circumstances of Canada were altogether different, with a large extent of to eign frontier; and so were those of New Zealand, with a large aboriginal population, causing constant alarm and danger to the European settlers. It would be impossible meaner; treat these iu the same miner; but oppor,unttres would bo taken as they arose, to invite the colonists to take those charges upon themselves. But reductions E . ! ! , 1 7, --- had been. going on at the Cape; he found, in April, there were 5,365 troops, and, on the Ist January! iba", 4 1 0 S- lie believed, too, that, under the auspices c "' his Noble. Friend at the head of the Colonial-effice, ar Coffee police had been formed, which would still furthse, ri duce this expense. In Canada, on the Ist Aprl, 18.,7,1 there were 6,400 troops; now, 4,300. Here, Win, o te. , system to which he had referred had been tarried not harshly or unjustly, but still with advantage t o thps country. The barracks at Montreal were found un P able, and it was therefore determin ed to rem hover er, troops to another place. The inhabitants, was were anxious that they should remain , a nd it wa the e re of an fore thought fair that they should be at the sand eesivere new barracks for them, which cost 30,0001., us trali t he paid for by the loCal government. In local troops had also been considerably reduc ed, and th legislature had been called on to take t he charge °I aria barrack establishments everywhere in the Aestree, colonies except Van Diemen's Land, Where, i n col , u a bl quence of the large number of convicts , it was t l 2 ° g rt e that the maintenance cf the troops inust le Friend as an Imperial charge. Hie Friend had called attention to America, an i tl °61111 . 1 11(1 : t as how she maintains her commerce in every Fei ere ) the world with so few ships. He (Mr. Lah ee f so was no advocate for maintaining a large fleet this necessary to support the commercial interests sing a country, and he believed our present system of h : pr ose moderate fleet, with our dockyards in a state to 'e", t ie that fleet to the requisite force at any momenti:slo4), wisest policy. He could not quite admit that O i l b e set who owed her sa'ety to her insular position , sh°"'"his to completely defenceless in this respect as to be tielsand, equip a fleet of night or ten vessels, as WO , ho eetr wished. He did look at America, but be v h palled to look to other quarters likewise. liew49„;;sl!le to believe that we enjoyed at the present a!i i y sed most peaceful relations with all the great little naval nations in the world, and that there 0%40 probability of the peace, which has lasted a° ;bee years, being disturbed. But on the other babdilosis b e ee the couldc opuo power e r not s of d egfuo consent irpthp he looked at the great fleets which Am eat'e country F g r ,o a f n s uch is are ca pest l e. b l e ie th b e ei b i e e v s e t d g t u b a a r t an d t ea . for the h e 1 1 :Ig t . t a e r f f e co tO a d , during e of the last three years, when intestine wars an a illitl, vulsions were rife throughout Europe, th e tiln et ;bre ll ' t which this country enjoyed at home, and resP e- e sdl were owing to the knowledge that shed ee 1'1;000 any moment to support her interests sa her their beit He believed the people of England would fit° on the gatot daeprlaivieetthi:t safeguard in a loyal and attached people, re l L i , cg ituti° l/s h i ancient institutions, with naval and military " -t ab sue not large, but respectable—he believed thitt they would have not only a barrier and ssfeg u h 3r i e n n cl would ensure to themselves the means 54 ' - e ll fur tranquillity. He met the Honourable Gentleteeo the t that point at once. He would remind the '' e -d lish ic ; they were not far from the Black Sea or t",% gree' ysverewsbuorrboaudndgedrobaty resources powerftil inoartioentieuit,sn.igafloe:Odts, resources,T They and sending out armies. —(hear, hear.) Ti e ° J a r h then ude n , e o that wn de mi i s t was pyo, steed not the t ith h hi e el a true m at ihn p e i o pr l ui meansthat oo ff th ci. ":" t: et i ri o_ ' res° —namely, that portion of it which asserted that 01 . 3 ; gressive increase of the expenditure since l' i di1 0 ! ) mainly owing to the increase in the naval ahl pii se ' u tr t establishments of the country. The lion. Ghe t d - oce t I.g vited them to take a pledge that they s hould re f 18 3 .',' expenditure of the country within the limit s °iv nibs The other resolutions he looked upon as ti 3e , e ' e le lories of the main question. He did not principle, that the taxies levied on the pooPle"j e feci°l o sf " Impede the operations r f agriculture and Inerupoilt, i g and diminish the finds for the eroplt 'anent °,` ;; t d t""e all branches of productive industry." '") Ile 1101°Aief thejJ taxes are without things—(Hear hear)-"),,e-i 8819,vt i t. i ii i e g lifi,B ; ecesi b ano u l,m t tth w (a)de l t i ye e h n eiTi t u h ts e t year admitl could be done no doubt it 'would be S i he industrytaxa taxation, i t ) h , had talise B t 3 b s at w m a i s )s teurierpttorrnot e ;" t i cl i i rt i3ol : heel of taxation that into the Treasury; but there was no doubt it to etg i ,, e „ te. hilly relieved the industry and stimulated of the people. He held in his hand dociocent ° W it h b i c t had not received trim the vote-Alice, hilftniwb would recommend to the study of Hon. .‘; c o - J3 e 0 31/3 „:: hich was a map published by the lion. Member I°` 43 00 1- o e f l a cewe countr y. n e o ° t u i b dT r iu which, by various lines, he showed th e n c- erie s f years a T s h d e e s price e o d f beyo pis industry, and revenue a the country for ii b oit er e ° a in n g d c a ( r ) i n d s( f ) a is llin fo g i r o li s e e e- r s r " s d , t r e e r ing figures, like the Andes or Antille angular lines.—(Loud laugher.) ? lber e rei : • features in that map that he had observe° e x p e ls 13 d ggi s t :i u t t ai u: ty : e r a l u o u sat e ir h a t l juyeticala.ointudtnrh Whenf ound dne getb,u6i daleatoehrt: regularly nlcodri,(11::108ct declining ag t nubips t u h i : e lsscuoc l iec i t e te;heee d iivii.ad o .ss gs 5 d rd' tatigh)—hut then cane the turnip point ° l do ool t he he was glad to see the line take a turn ag ain a - r 3Y There were other lines indicating the prusr - i l ea ; S t l bs trade and c: mmerce of the country; Oa s i ° , 3 e s' t he those great sources of the wealth and well-lTrigeii:ga-i, country had been steadily increasing; an d ! l a i c -tebe the gtrit , 7st satisfaction trom seeing tha', eof question w o ! f i s increasing, wbeth,r tbu Dished expenditure, the would and trecli, --e 10 0 ,: e a coun I Nl e erem or e n i b ' ) 1 E i j i e e t . a s b i le t b t o d : i l; t e r r io c t ou p n ay tri i. e n s ore an i d ax h e e s that it was the'duty of the H with t ke care t .cea o ,. t): agreedia were " ouse to ta teiy . tee d tv• for mai- t triance of the honour end co:lc:try, but he dr flied that th in% piles Hie England was to be eec" 'P i° 11° Y it b measured tv,ane , bu t f t he It should be without waste or ' nt erest: ea el f. be such as was suited to the Zinatsa4alil.sbes se p et' count ). He was most anxiovs to see 0 93 ds ciag severe in their laniable design Of I.c " her the ir expenditure, and he could as sure them t h- „ - e .oo' t ealt j esty's G..ver;:ment would be most a nxious ciforts. He hoped, however, they would not I : e ii ,4 e° t ies ot the nature of their tru,t al to seek a fle e- - r ed mentary popu'arity at the expense f the o c t There was one point more he wished to r'f i l i ejo ug aid line Gentleman had referred to the anicunt";,,e 11 : 0 rel salane., which he seemed to consider eXceis',.a.ce°"(4-etY not deny that in their judicial establishinenoret might not be pushed further; but when t he ,„iad b,703 5 ', tlrmen talked of America he would B onin re' - c oo°'d -1 0 1 the difference in the ei reinus t, n me „r e "c ° prt l- per, rem was nothing England was more jot" ). ~.(Pr ' eei p t h hi , p r y ' l a ) 0 ua and they e m u a l i w d n were than the character and conduct of herjud in g . o erP'slie conciliatingd ee nr b g e i nrespct estimated for lawsthilyiehae ngaoSboiluil surd 0 ° 60 ( 6 c o rd : Liens of the country. It was, then, meat he the. she paltry economy to measure their services V ee p I° t he motley vatu4. He (Mr. Labouchere) had, tp d wit h 0 0 United States, and hal been much deliueut b° pr.rgress of that great people in prosP r ! t Y o .'ehea'''',lo o3 ., nut are indiscriminate dmirere of every o f Ari,°"„ite o believed teat the judicial establishments be : "e t vSt were infinitely better. The Chief Justic e he se ire 0 was t" States received 1,200/. a year, but what - t th e, pursued there? They did not think th% ea", )jr , after sixty years of age was fit to be a klug e - se ` r be pensioned him off. Why, there was the and sfte t be Eminett, who had been a judge there, p elt t;„ ) had been pensioned off, he was ebligei to e arr arc e bar, at which he was in the first pritetiSe, 0 ..) P t of than he had received as a mitted as much as any one the importancesiosogr° of economy, and therefore it was not ilr" a tient '. se ° that he opposed the motion of the Hon. -10 e eee ti f judge.—(Hear, h e .n d 00 0 0 lieving that the resolutions which he ushernteeestra to affirm were plainly inconsistent with the li sbe d tu - be for, e country—believing that the pledges be 7 he posse make were imprudent and improper' O A ' such t li tb said, believing that they might be p ' b ,°e- r ry °".. at 11' tion that they would be unable t° c e a oeld 13 3 th e pledges, which, on the other ,hourshand ho 661 ‘ e be ri treat from with consistency or ho uos. g bl t o House to negative them. He 110 Pd„,,,, tbel°,, bi t.l would not be deterred from voting 0g 4 ',,, - i s col lstr- : d e. feeling that their conduct would he 'coot w b ": the their constituents. Although the Ger; d ' in sirous of economy, they would no t it Pl a se : hoP e. ", mere appearance of it, unless 00' ° the m. 1-7daratfo praetical and substantial shape bet l i ' r e e , the 01 by ' e e the House would proceed unpleclge ° ,, '1;ov the% 00 of the estimates which would be talu s to o'h ° v ectoe i c i dill'.. rent enetribere of the Gove rnc l i e ri ne t f ,, th e y e ‘de e°e were entrusted. Let them opf-1 ik e ssa t hem them right and proper; and tiered it necessary, and sule h r ; a iled ilfw - „f rese", - 0 - tiens which they would a eerie° o f take that course rather the° ely at bY IF regret. cooia ce esolut i o o Mr. SPOONER said if he Vi a° il es° I°l giving his support, as a p intendee, t 0 anY future for° the e ffectl he should consider himself pledge' yob that would have the effect of reducinysgta for thet e i o of the army or navy he would h ut to bind 13 , i T e ffi eti lle he saw nothing whatever in theta reduce nr any motion hereafter that a blisba l " itbt ntb. out strength of their naval and military es rjo aati , h oir, thought there was ample room for r' i f be ,ipie.ve touching anything that was of die eltri,„ 0 .0 unquestioria sing that by so doing he should be a llude ° b aa l. America, which had been so elaboreteldisdoce 1,90°,4 would not support them. Nothing rece i ve ool t i e d vote that the Chief J as; ice s hould re: ot ' ar i 0 05 he %, per annum. But at the same time be ution s ' Sn it C O e tj oe l propositions contained in these about tato ro v ee witfea the that in voting for them he waS different from that of the Hoe. Geh t : oss be b e o l oo l a , he usually voted, and whose oPi°!_ erbie... ear highest respect for. The first resolutioe,_ their_d the the large increase that had taken placcii4 e tatu_ co st diture, lied not been contradicted, atit . :! , send oa the increase had been caused priucipallYerl4 etatigsie Uon• al oe to y leers fir defensive armaments. 1 e ntire ly ed e did not say that the increase hed been be bt ;iiet 7_ . augmentations of our warlike establish!" Ge n ' them; it was a question of degree, .; 13u reitg . „uo formed a very considerable part of tn a %; as alinwt Right Honourable Gentleman had made ,°..sadbr ottler tO 61' o' e n and many other extravagant items. Il e _, 5 osSe resolution which he could not refuse hi s 00.i:efo, the salary of 10,000/. a year to our 9.1 1 :1 3 _ 3 0 ,4 ? et t Tba; the taxes required to meet ti! u _Kr' ss a te _l; st et Lure impede the operations of ugricull e ri 4 ecap leysti . , er ebi o tures, and diminish the funds for tn . dustry, 114 t. labour in all branches of productive in _ e d odo'„old tending to produce pauperism and crinioe,,:., 00:0010t the local and general burdens of the pc! P' l it to the o t° not deny that, and if he refused his asse •ostaloie tioa he denied the truth of the proposittub nroci.lc_,„oo resolution pledged them to return as soe rro s n : b an ste i .e ot e to the expenditure of 1835. The Right 1./- proc i P iota construed that into an immediate, hasty_t•es.t Ri ding t ie return, but the Hen. Member for the W. 'respect. tied had been particularly guarded in th e : ltr a thits pointed out to theta the scale of expolu" THE SUSI., LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 9, 1850