The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

the stock of the Company had risen to a most unac countable height in a very short time, but what was the cause of it he could not tell. The Earl of DALHOUSIE stated that the scheme had been laid before the House last year, and if any objections were to be made, what he said he was, that t not they might have been made then ; but did mean by that to preclude his Noble Friend from taking the objection at any time he thought proper. Lord CAMPBELL gave the Noble Earl credit for the very excellent qualities he had brought to the con sideration of the important subjects laid before the Board of -which he was the head ; but at the same time he (Lord Campbell) believed that that Board was altogether incompetent to decide upon those questions. As well might twelve drunken porters meet and give their opinions on the convenience of one scheme, or the inutility of another of the schemes brought forward, with respect to rail ways. This Committee of the Board of trade for the consideration of railway questions had no authority from Parliament, and no existence in common law ; and it was, therefore, impossible that their decisions could be respected in the country. They examined no witnesses, and yet they decided upon questions of such paramount importance. True, the Noble Earl said that they examined written evidence. That he (Lord Campbell) supposed meant the state ments of the parties themselves, who felt it their interest to make out the most plausible case to advance their individual interests. If such were their mode of coming to a decision, how could they asssist Parliament in their deliberations, if their decisions were come to without hearing evi dence ? These decisions must be conclusive or not. Ile thought that some other mode should be found by which the Board should arrive at their decisions. A division in the Board would not shake his faith in their decisions. On the contrary, he thought this would entitle them to greater weight. He would suggest whether it would not be better to consider how this Board could be improved, in order to ensure it the confidence of the public. Lord STRANGFORD said that one of his Noble and Learned Friends stated that the decisions of the Board would be influential, while the other Noble and Learned Lord declared that it would have no in fluence of any kind. He (Lord Strangford) was quite at a loss to reconcile these two things. Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that anyone would suppose, from what had fallen from Noble Lords opposite, that some particular and private object was to be gained to the Government by the establishment of this Board. What were the facts ? The House of Commons, finding that they were placed in a diffi culty by the multitude of these railways coming be fore them, appointed this Board to enter into an exa mination of the schemes, in order to relieve the House of Commons from some of this difficulty. This was not done in a hurry, but after the most mature delberation. All the Board had to do was to assist the House of Commons, by sifting the claims of the several parties before they went before the Committees of Parlia ment. It was even suggested, after the Board had got through three-fourths of their labour, that an al teration in the mode of their proceeding should take place. He could not suppose that his Noble and Learned Friend had made this suggestion on due consideration. Let them see during this year the effect of the working of the Board, and then, if im provements were found to be necessary, they could be made. Lord BROUGHAM (holding a large blue book in his hand) rose and said, he w3uld ask whether he was liable to the reflection which had been cast upon him, that, although he objected to the constitution of the Board now, he did not do so last year, when it was appointed ? He held in his hand the report of the Select Committee on Railways. At page 15 of that report, it was stated that the Board should be appointed, " firstly,:to afford additional aid in elucida tion of facts by the testimony of witnesses competent by knowledge and habits and opportunity, atad offi cially responsible." It turned out, however, that these witnesses were not witnesses but judges. The report went on to state that the particular judgment of the Committee was not.to prejudice the claims of pri vate persons, the examination of which was altogether to be reserved for the Legislature. He could only say that last year had he read this report, he never would have expected that it would have led to a course of proceeding such as that which had taken place. The subject then dropped. PENAL LAWS AFFECTING ROMAN CATHOLICS. \ ' 1 ..f , ',71 , - , ..- , , c..., -\, -2 , ',...---- _ ! , 4..,1tiic., INI. _.-_ 1 • - - t`..; • Lord BEAUMONT rose to put a question to the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, on the subject of the penal laws which still affected the Roman Catholics. He was of opinion that the time had arrived when all Acts which involved pains and penalties for religion's sake ought to be re pealed. The Roman Catholics did not expect that those Acts which only imposed disabilities as safe guards to the Established Church would be dealt with. Again, with regard to one Act he begged to make particular allusion, and that was the 13th of Elizabeth, chap. 2. He had been told by the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, that this Act had been repealed by a subsequent Act. It appeared that a portion of this Act had been repealed by the Customs Duties Consolidation Act.—(Laughter.) Any person introducing an Agnus Dei, or beads, or anything of that sort, was, before the passing of the Customs Consolidation Act, liable to penalties. At present those articles could be introduced at two per cent. ad valorem. But any person at present re ceiving from the Court of Rome a letter or document, even though it should inculcate abstinence from agi tation, or call upon the priests to abstain from inter ference with politics—or any person receiving a re script of that letter or document, and publishing it, was held guilty of high treason by the 13th of Eliza beth. He thought that while the law stood in this position a change was required. The LORD CHANCELLOR—In the first place he begged leave to remind their Lordships that in the last session of Parliament he stated that he intended to extend the law reforms which he then commenced. He had referred the subject to the Common-law Com missioners, and they were now considering the whole matter. He had recommended her Majesty to add to the Commission the names of Sir Edward Ryan, Mr. Amos, and Mr. Richards ; and, founded upon the re port of the Commissioners, a draft Bill would be pre pared, which he should submit to their Lordships at the earliest opportunity. Their Lordships then adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 17. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT, the new Secretary-at-War, took the oaths and his seat for South Wiltshire. THE MALT-TAX. Mr. TUITE presented thirteen petitions, praying for the repeal of the malt-tax. IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT. Mr. BROADLEY presented petitions from places in Yorkshire, praying for the repeal of the Act of the 7th and Bth Victoria, doing away with imprisonment for debt in certain cases. THE MEDICAL REFORM BILL. Sir J. TROLLOPE presented petitions, signed by all the respectable medical practitioners in the towns of Spalding and Holbeach, in Lincolnshire, against the Medical Reform Bill, and praying the House to afford them that adequate protection to which they were entitled from the time and expense required for their education. THE CALEDONIAN RAILWAY. Mr. HOPE JOHNSTONE presented petitions from various places (one of them signed by 500 of the leading firms in Glasgow), in favour of the Cale donian Railway Bill. PAPER- STAIN E RS. Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from a large body of paper-stainers, complaining of the pre sent state of the law with regard to the manufacture of paper and the importation of foreign ornamental paper. CURRENCY. The HON. MEMBER also presented two petitions against any alteration in the currency of Scotland. CHARITABLE BEQUESTS ACT. Sergeant MURPHY presented a petition from the inhabitants of the city of Cork, adopted at a large meeting, and signed by several thousands, praying for the repeal of the Charitable Bequests Act. POST-OFFICE ESPIONAGE. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from Capt. Stalbey and another, complaining of the unsa- V l3ll i 4 tory state of the report of the Secret Committee appointed last year to inquire into this subject. These two gentlemen had had their letters opened ; and, in the event of the House appointing another Committee to inquire further into the matter, they prayed the House to allow them to be heard before that Com mittee, inasmuch as imputations had been cast upon them in the former Committee, and no opportunity h a d been afforded them for vindicating their cha racters. The Hon. Member intimated that to-morrow h e would move that this petition be printed with the Votes at the same time that, according to notice, he would bring under the consideration of the House the unsatisfactory and evasive character of the report made by the late Secret Committee. • The HoN. MEMBER also moved that the petition of Mr. Joseph Mazzini, presented on the 14th inst., be printed with the vot is. THE NAVY ESTIMATES. Mr. CORRIE laid on the table the navy estimates, which were ordered to be printed. MEDICAL REFORM. Mr. KELLY presented a petition, numerously Piped, from most respectable gentlemen of the medi cal profession, against the Medical Reform Bill, and praying that the House would not pass it into a law • without material amendments. xiEWSPAI INCREASE OF THE NAVY. MTAFFORD O'BRIEN presented a petition AttzeWellinborough, in the county of Northampton, Est preparations for war, and praying that the House would not consent to an increase of the navy. SALE OF LIQUORS ON SUNDAY. Mr. BRIGHT presented petitions fron Carnarvon, and other places, against the sale of liquors on the Sabbath. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING-, FEBRUAR - 1: lB I 84:). question. It should be recollected it was an unpre- ' l 4 cedented situation—(Cheers)—in consequence of the new Board which had been imposed upon Parliament. Would the House take the leavings of the Board of Trade, or would they act independently ?—(Hear.) Mr. C. WOOD did not think the answer of the Right Hon. Baronet was calculated to give satis• faction either to the House or to the country. The Government should consider whether the answer given was calculated to give confidence in the railway department of the Board of Trade. He (Mr. Charles Wood) had heard from other sources the report to which the Noble Lord had alluded. He had heard that on one occasion the members of the Committee were evenly divided in opinion as to a particular line of railway ; but one of its members gave a casting vote, which determined the Railway Committee upon deciding in favour of the line which the President had sanctioned, and this, too, although the only engineer who was a member of the Committee ex pressed his dissent to the line recommended. If the Government wished that the reports of the Committee should be received with any degree of confidence he confessed he thought they were taking the worst pos sible course to ensure any degree of trust in the justice of their decisions. Mr. MILNES said he thought Hon. Gentlemen had erred in attaching so much importance to names and authorities. What they should look to was the reasons which the Committee gave for the decisions at which they arrived. Ile did not see that names or authorities had anything to do with the matter. What the Government had said was that the reports should be merely considered as guides, and these re ports could not be in any way invalidated by the supposition that some of those gentlemen might have dissented from the opinions of the remainder. Mr. ESCOTT said that he feared the construction of the Board involved much suspicion as to its pro ceedings. The proceedings of the Committee would never give satisfaction unless they were public. It sat as a court of justice, and if its proceedings were secret they would always be liable to suspicion. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the answer of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir G. Clerk) would not give satisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) It was important to consider that the inquiry had been en trusted to a responsible department of the Govern ment—(Hear, hear)—and it was not intended that it should be left to a tribunal composed of gen tlemen who had no Parliamentary responsibility.— (Hear, hear.) The Committee which sat last year recommended that the Board of Trade should exa mine the applications to be made to Parliament for new railway projects, and for rival railways, and should report to the House their opinion of their merits ; but he did not think that the Committee, in making that recommendation, at all contemplated that there should be constituted a new tribunal, exempt from Parliamentary responsibility. He had been a member of that Committee, and to speak for himself, he never had contemplated any such thing. He thought that the Board of Trade would transact the business itself, and that the President or the Vice-President, or some member of the Govern ment, being responsible to Parliament, would have pro vided for the proper performance of this business in the railway department. He thought the Board of Trade was bound to take the duty upon itself— (Hear, hear)—and he never before had heard of the appointment of a tribunal constituted, as was the one in question, of persons having no Parlia mentary character and no responsibility to the country.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that those gentlemen should not have the task thrown upon them, however respectable they might be. He did not wish to say a word against th e i r res p ec t a bilit y , upon which there could be no imputation, but he must say that it was not proper that gentlemen who filled such situations as that of private secretary should have been placed in possession of such extraordinary power and with such little responsibility.—(Hear,hear.) He must also say that certainly suspicions had arisen. He aid not hesitate to declare his convictions that these suspicions were wholly unfounded. But he thought the Government had to thank itself for having occasioned those suspicions by the manner in which they had instituted the Board. However, the mischief had been done, and could not very well be remedied so far. Still he must repeat that he did not think the answer of the Hon. Gentleman had been satisfactory. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman opposite that whatever effect the report of the Board of Trade might have on the House must depend on its impartiality. If it was found that the engineer of the Board differed from the rest of his colleagues upon the nature of the report, that must, of course, very much detract from it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GLADSTONE said he he did not intend to enter into the question upon which this discussion commenced—namely, an examination or an analysis of the Railway Board as to the opinion of its members. But there were two other matters introduced, upon which he wished to say a few words. The Honour able and Learned Member for Winchester ex pressed a strong opinion, that if the judg ments of the Board were to carry any weight their proceedings must be public. Now he stated most strongly to the House that there was no choice between having their proceedings not public and having no Railway Board at all.—(Hear, hear.) There was no alternative. If the House was of opinion that they should establish public proceedings before a Board of that nature, they must have regular and formal examinations of witnesses—the parties' counsel and agents must be constantly present— they must have regular statements and replies— they must have all that delay and expense which the very gentlemen who complained of the want of pub licity were parties to expose before that House. With regard to the composition of the Board, the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was the first person from whom he had heard any censure, and far less ' such severe censure as that of the Right Honourable Gentleman. It was easy to find fault with its con stitution, or any plan that might be adopted under the circumstances; but if he loaked to the alternative to which the Right Hon. Gentleman pointed out in the remarks he addressed to the House, he was not at all shaken in his conviction that the course taken in the appointment of the Board was the best course of which the circumstances would admit. The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted that if there was to be a Board at all, he would have it constituted of Privy Councillors. Now, he would ask the House how it was possible to constitute the Board of Privy Councillors, the members of which should have patiently devoted themselves from morn ing till night, for the space of four or five months, to receive deputations, to examine papers, and form con • elusions connected with 240 railroads.—(Hear, hear.) Perhaps it might be the opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman that such things were possible. In his (Mr. Gladstone's) opinion, it was totally visionary, and he was astonished to hear such a plan recom mended by any person, but particularly by a gentle man of great ability, who held a high public office in the country. Another plan was, that the President and Vice-President of the Board of Trade might proceed with regard to Rail way Bills as they did with regard to public bills. That might be the best course to pursue if it was physically possible that the buisiness of the Railway Department could be got through in that manner. But the organ of the Board of Trade in that or the other House of Parliament had many other matters to attend to. He had to attend to many commercial and financial mea sures, and to many important matters con nected with their foreign and colonial policy. At the present moment the circumstances of the Rail way Department were such that they demanded the undivided mind and time of those who were called upon to conduct the affairs of that department. Therefore, although the institution of a novel mode of proceeding was in itself disadvantageous, yet the Government were absolutely driven upon it, because the usual machinery of Parliamen tary representation would have been totally in adequate to the purpose. It was absolutely necessary, with regard to such important matters as railways, to take some means of assuring the House and the country that there had been, according to the opportunities possessed, a patient and laborious investigation of the facts ; and he did not think it possible for any gentleman who heard him to ima gine that such an assurance could have been given in this case by the Board of Trade, and to an audience similar to that which usually decided upon private Bills.—(Hear.) Although the plan adopted was very far from being theoretically perfect, and although, as must always be the case where such great conflicting interests were at stake, great dis satisfaction prevailed, yet it was remarkable that no gentleman had pointed out a course of proceeding which, on the whole, would be attended with so few disadvantages. It had been objected to one of these gentlemen that he had been private secretary to the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment. Well, he did not himself see that that was in the nature of a disqualification, or in the nature of proof or presumption that this gen tleman was unfit for his position. Why, what changes they constantly saw taking place ! Who censured the appointment of the gentleman who was lately private secretary to Lord Haddington, now the Secretary to the Admiralty ?—(Hear, hear.) Other gentlemen who had been private secretaries had been afterwards made Secretaries of State; and he really could not see that the post of a member of the Railway Board was at all more important. He believed that the word " clerk" had been applied to those gentlemen. It had been said that the gentlemen who dealt with these vast interests were persons scarcely higher in station than clerks. Now it was impossible to use a word more ambiguous than the word " clerk." A " clerk" might mean one who was en gaged in the discharge of mechanical duties—on the other hand it was frequently applied to a per son in al' public office who discharged duties requiring very high and delicate discretion. Now, the position of the Board of Trade was this-- the President or Vice-President of that Board acted ' as the head of it ; and it did sometimes happen that there were only four or five of them acting at a time; but they were usually assisted in their proceedings by the counsel of those of their body, who were most competent to give them advice upon railway business. Some of them engaged in railways, and others who, though not so engaged, were most conversant with that business, took no part in the proceedings of the Board; but the reason they were connected with it was because', the object of the Government was to select those who, from their position and education, were best qualified to hold such a position. As to the gentleman who was placed at the head of the Board of Trade—he stood in the situation of a responsible and Parliamentary officer, and was answerable for those acts of his that had been called in question. Mention had been made of the reports of the Board of Trade as emanating from only three or four members of the Board. Now, he could not say that because a report did emanate from only that number it should be called a report of only three or four, no more than should a report from a Committee of that House be called a report of three members or one member.—(Laughter.) But the reports of the Board of Trade were now be fore the House as the reports from that department, and he would contend for it that they should be held as the deliberate and formal reports of that body.— (Hear.) He could say, that while he was connected with that Board ho exercised his best abilities to give satisfaction ; and he would now say, that if he were still connected with it he would defend its acts on the floor of that House; and connected with it now or not, he would still be ready to defend them while he was connected with the Board—(Hear, hear)—and he felt assured that those reports had, as they ought to have, the confidence of the majority of that House. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. BERNAL had listened with great atten tion to the Hon. and Learned Member opposite in his defence of his conduct while he was in office, as a member of the Board of Trade, and he (Mr. B.) was glad to hear him say he would be answerable for the veracity of the reports of that Board—(Laughter)—and that, furthermore, he was prepared to defend those reports, and act as their gladiator on the floor of that House.—(Laughter.) This was the difficulty in which the subject was in volved. He had long entertained an opinion on the subject of the private bnsiness of that House, which he was aware was not a popular one, and whenever he had introduced it, it had not received the slightest support. He thought they ought gradually to take steps towards removing the chief part of the pri vate business from the control of that house. They were approaching an era in civilisation, unlike any that had been seen before, and a whole mass of private business poured in upon them, for the danger of which they had not provided. They had sketched out an imperfect and hasty plan, for trusting some of it to the Committee of the Board of Trade, and what had been the result? Why that respect able gentlemen were indirectly —he might almost say directly—accused of not discharg ing their duties candidly and honestly. Those gentlemen were placed in an odious position ; they were exposed to every random shot fired at them by speculators, or by those who were not speculators. He for one would not consent to stand in such a position, and would rather give up the post of Secre tary or President of the Committee than encounter the odium it produced.—(Hear.) It was said there must be some tribunal ; but it was impossible that with a hundred Railway Bills before them, Hon. Members, who were occu pied by public business, could give up hours every day to attend to Railway schemes in which they had no interest whatever. What, then, was to be done ? Let the Government, whoever it may be composed of, boldly sketch out the plan of some open tribunal, out of doors, where the merits of these railway schemes could be discussed ; and he was sure that the decisions of such a body would give more satisfaction than the decisions of that House. The present Committee had not sufficient time to attend to the business thrown upon it—all was hurry and confusion, and so great was the pressure to get ready the plans and documents for the last day on which they could be given in, that several working engineers lost their health, and some their lives, from the excessive labour; they would never exonerate the House from suspicion of self interest till they removed the control of its private business to some other tribunal. There were certainly difficulties attending every new arrangement, but if they studied the credit of the House they would lose no time in taking the question into their serious consideration. Mr. W. E. GL ADSTONE complained that he had been misunderstood. What he had stated was, that if he had continued in office he should have consi dered it his duty, as the organ of the Board of Trade, to defend their decisions, but he had also stated that the Government was placed in a very different position with regard to private Bills to that in which it was placed with regard to public Bills. As the organ of the Board of Trade, he should have felt it his duty to make the best defence he could for the decisions on private Bills, but he begged it to be dis tinctly understood that in that decision the Govern ment, as a Government, was not involved. What t rd he ll i 2 i N c y C a K had n s that he et argued complained a on t g a in s th making point. ' the reports of that tribunal conclusive, because theyacthpoa n p n r c approaching u d atsc e bih a ve l ie t n.: gu w tdth i gotehei that h p ai s rope tnt ao tlfiN r or t t en y hs et toon ought adhsgmtt judges. u srt . c o bh be Hiei g r eo. n e ha a ean t d e ds r onm a bo m ete A o u, handullsea used • said that if their decisions were to be considered as t t b h a e t w•o thatr d t clerk n a i n l w a ny offensive as composed s sense, s e f h , on o he o r ur b a bl believed i m e v e ed n. All he objected to was, their b e i ng perm i tte d to deal s masses tb tofesp eech property. of the conclusively si r R . r E with Er u as c h s large urp erd at Member for fo ß r ig T b a t un H t u on n: e ß n i n g s h id t er H in o g n. tbGeenetxlepemrainenethee that Gentleman had had in the Board of Trade. It ap peared to be the impression that the Government oatvbne the sanction n ms authority aonnettihnand in nof n y this matter which had En h had e creceived Government the House. Now the acted in perfect con formity, as they thought, with the wishes of the House of Commons. A Select Committee had been appointed last session to consider the mode of proceeding with regard to Railway Bills. They were called upon to consider if the present mode of conducting the railway business of the House of Commons was satisfactory or not. They had to discuss the question of the degree of super vision which the Government should exercise over these railway schemes in their early stage. They considered that some preliminary examination of these schemes should take place before they were submitted to that House. They said they would not discuss whether or not any new department should be instituted for that purpose, but they would assure them that Parliament meant that the Board of Trade should exercise that super vision. If the House of Commons entertained a different opinion, that opinion should have been expressed at the time. It had been assumed that the Board of Trade should exercise that super vision, and what the Committee proposed was, that before any Bills were submitted to Parliament, the schemes should be submitted to a preliminary exami nation, leaving it to the Government to determine whether or not any new department should be in stituted for the transaction of railway business. The reports were only intended as guides for Parlia ment. On some occasions the Board reported in favour of particular lines, and sometimes they re ported for postponement ; but he denied that they had exercised any powers which were not in con formity with the powers vested in them by the Legislature. The Committee reported in favour of the enlarging of the railway department of the Board of Trade, but left it to the Government to say how it was to be organised and how it was to be enlarged. He denied that the directions of the Committee had not been complied with. He thought his Right Hon. Friend had acted with propriety in de clining to enter into an explanation about differences of opinion among the members of the Board, as to the best line of railway. If differences of opinion had, in the first instance, occurred among the members of the Board, as to the best line of railway, it was quite con sistent that explanation and discussion might re concile their differences, and when all their names ap peared as sanctionirg a report, the fact ought to be taken to be so, and that all the members of the Board were unanimous. Mr. LABOUCIIERE had not complained of the Board of Trade making these reports. What he complained of was the mode in which the Board of Trade, or the Government, thought fit to carry the recommendations of the Committee into effect. He had maintained, and he would still main tain, that the present was a most cumbrous mode of proceeding, and most inconvenient to the public service. He had expressed his opinion as to the mode in which the Board of Trade had discharged their duties. He would say no more than to repeat his opinion that the mischief had already been done, and that the Government had to thank itself for the suspicions to which the proceedings of the Board had given rise. Sir It. 11. INGLIS thought that all that had been said on the subject was a justification of the Govern ment in having appointed the five gentlemen who con stituted the Board.—(Hear, hear.) But hi; (Sir It. Inglis's) immediate object in rising at present was for the purpose of making a few observations on what had fallen from one of the acutest gentlemen in theHouse,who had formerly been member. forßochester. He would ask that Hon. Member and the House did he think it was possible that they could entertain the idea of creating a new judicial tribunal for the inves tigation and determination of matters connected with railways ?—(No, no.) And, if it were possible to do so, woul,l it not be actually instituting another Heo.e of Parliament? For the decision of that new judicial tribunal would be considered after in the House of Commons, as if it had come from another branch of the Legislature ; and it would have to be considered in its successive stages as a Bill which came from one House of the Legislature to the other. But he thought that the present Committee of the Board of Trade was nearly in the situation of a grand jury. The inquiries were ex parte ; and when the report came up to the House it was like an indictment sent from a grand jury, having only prepared the case for adjudication. The report did not deprive the House of the power of examining all the evidence on both sides, and voting as it thought fit. There was another observation which he had to make. An Hon. Gentleman opposite had said that the answer of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir George Clerk) had not been satisfactory, as respected the appointment of some gentlemen on the Board. But it was admitted upon all hands that those gentlemen were qualified for the duty, and their characters were admitted by every gentleman who spoke upon the subject to be above suspicion. —(Hear.) Mr. WAKLEY thought that no complaint had been made against the Government for having insti tuted the railway department of the Board of Trade. He thought it was admitted the House itself was to blame for all that had been done.—(Hear, and a laugh.) For all that had been said was that the system had not worked well, and that the Government should propose to the House to remedy the inefficiency.—(Hear.) With respect to the statement of the late President of the Board of Trade, he (Mr. Wakley) thought that statement made matters worse, when he said that if he were in office still, he would stand up in the House and defend Ve report. Now, that course would be to take upon the Government the responsibility of the report, and to give the latter the weight of Government authority. The manner in which the inquiry had been conducted gave great dissatisfaction, and the public felt that they had suffered considerable injury. That was the impression in the western counties. He (Mr. Wakley) hoped that the Government would give up the idea of having any such tribunal at all.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") come-tax would not be temporary, hut would be always renewed. lie (Lord John Russell) be lieved the question would always be, in regard to the income-tax, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated last year, between a renewal of that impost and a national insolvency.--(Hear, hear.) Well, now let the House look at the statement the Right Hon. Baronet made upon financial and commercial grounds. As to what had been stated upon financial grounds, he (Lord John Russell) would own they did not admit or much fault. As to the statement in her Majesty's speech that it was not her Majesty's intention to increase the civil list this year, of course the House and the country should be rejoiced at this, while they were not at all surprised at it.---(Hear, and a laugh.) With respect to the increase of the navy estimates, the Right Hon. Ba ronet bad left out of his statement that which he (Lord J. Russell) looked upon as the most necessary part of it, while he went into a detail of matters not at all looked for. There were details which were always looked for as a matter of course in the report of the Secretary-at- War; and the House always admitted that a consider able army force was required to be kept up in the colo nies, and the supplies for that department were granted , without any objection by the House, whether the party in power was Whig or Tory.--(Hear, hear.) With re gard to the navy estimates, he (Lord J. Russell) was re • joiced to find that, in this department, the neglect which was apparent in the years 1634 and 1844, was now about to give way to more vigilant attention— (Hear, hear)—nor did he think that a force of ten sail of the line, for such a maritime power as this was, should be looked upon as a great conces sion. —(Hear, hear.) But it did appear, by the whole statement of the Hon. Baronet, that the estimates were very large indeed, and much larger than could have been expected, considering the absence of those causes which led to an increase some few years ago. For in stance, from the year 1841 to the year 1842, the whole of the public expenditure, including over half a million for the support of the army in Canada and China, amounted to 18,167,0001 Then, the estimates for the year ending January, 1843, including 1,350,000/., was over nineteen millions ; and the amount of the estimates to January, 1844, was 18,895,000!., and this amount, he , conceived, should be looked upon as considerably larger than it ought to be, when it was remembered that there was no peculiar cause for it.—(Hear, hear.) However, he hoped and believed, that when her Majesty's Minis ters came prepared with their statement, they would also come prepared with good and sufficient reasons for this increased amount of the estimates, and if they did so, he would not join in any vote for a mate rial diminution of them.—(Hear, hear.) The consequence of voting those estimates would be that there would be a surplus with the income tax of 3,400,000!. Now, he thought if the whole of the surplus was to be disposed of with respect to many of the arti cles chosen, it would be said that they had been judici ously chosen with respect to promoting the industry and commerce of the country. The tax on cotton-wool—a tax on the raw material—a most important material in trade, was against all sound commercial principles, and he must confess that he rejoiced that it was proposed to take it off.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the tax on glass he concurred with the Right Hon. Baronet that that tax greatly impeded manufactures in that article, and he thought' the' Right lion. Baronet could not do better than take it off. With regard, however, to some of the other taxes it was proposed to remove, the same observations would not apply. With respect to the auc tion duty of the Right Hon. Baronet who did not wish to keep up any surplus, why 300,000!. should be given away in auction duty he could not tell. Although he did not generally agree with the property-tax of the gallant Member for Lincoln, he thought it would have been much better to have taken off the tax on fire-insurances than auctions. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that there had been no complaint made of the duty. It was true, and he seemed to take to himself the merit of finding out a tax that ought to be removed, but of which nobody complained. Now, generally speaking, he be lieved that when the people found a tax burthensome they objected to it, but that was not the case here.— (Cheers.) The tax on soap, he believed, was the only one remaining on the necessaries of life which Adam Smith said ought to be repealed, but the Right lion. Gentleman had said nothing with respect to that tax. He thought that the Right lion. Gentleman ought to have gone further. He thought that in fairness to that House the Right Hon. Gentleman should have come for ward and said to that House, " Do you think that a per petual income-tax will be suficiently repaid by the taxes remitted by my proposition ?" But then there was another part of the Right Hon. Baronet's plan to which he begged to direct the attention of the House. He meant its commercial policy. The Right Hon. Baronet had referred to the tariff of 1842, and he ascribed the improved condition of the revenue to the changes in the tariff. Now, he thought it would have been but fair if the Right Hon. Gentleman had given specific details instead of general statements. He had informed the House that there had been a great increase of revenue in the Customs, but not a single word about the par ticular articles on which that duty had arisen. He (Lord John Russell) believed that as far as could be judged from returns presented to the House, that, with, regard to the duties which the Right Hon. Baronegatt reduced, there had been a great loss to the revenuctlipit, them, and that the great increase in. the Customs 44; been solely on articles untouched by his tariff. :With regard to the articles of consumption in the fire five schedules, there appeared a loss of 5,500/. on the articles reduced, but a gam of 17,000/. on those untouched by the Right Hon. Baronet's measure. In the 7th sChedule there was a gain on those not touched by the tariff of 1,695,000!., while the loss on those affected by it was 686,0001, leaving a total °gain on these schedules of 1,900,0001 Now, as far as that statement went, it would appear that the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet had not been fairly put to the House. The gain which had taken place had been entirely owing to the improved condition of the country, to bountiful harvests, revivals in trade and manufactures, and not to changes in the tariff. The Government and the Board of Trade might have a case to show. If they had he thought the Right Hon. Baronet should have informed the House what that case was, and why he expected a considerable increase on those articles on which he had reduced the duties. The Right Hon. Baronet proposed to go further and to remove 400 articles from the ope ration of the tariff. But there was another class of duties, with regard to which the Right Hon. Baronet had dealt differently. With regard to those questions of commercial policy to which he had alluded—questions which were long ago settled in the opinion of all men who at all looked into them, and with regard to which there was no opposition—one principle in that respect was, that there should be no export duty on articles the produce of manufactures. Another principle was not to charge a duty on the raw materials and manufactures. These were excellent principles which were acknowledged by all. In 1721, Sir Robert Walpole made an altera tion by which no less than 130 articles in that respect were affected. With regard to them there was very little dispute. Everybody was OA to have the reduc tion and to have the advantage of it. No person would -wish to dispute with the itight Hon. Gentleman that it was a good thing to take off the duty on cotton-wool, or who would wish to see the export duty on coal continued. Therefore, the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken advan tage of these circumstances in the application of just principles, where he was not likely to meet with opposi tion. But there was another principle not so early acknowledged, of which Sir Robert Walpole and the statesmen of his day were ignorant, but which was fully developed and proved to demonstration by a great man and a great writer, Dr. Adam Smith, and which was soon after acknowledged to be a just principle be no less an authority than William Pitt—the principle that there ought to be no protective duties—that in endeavouring to protect certain branches of manufactures. or certain classes of industry, they were, in fact, doing injury to one part of the community for the apparent benefit of another; but that after all this benefit was but an appa rent benefit, because that very class itself, on behalf of whom they committed this injustice, on behalf of whom they deprived the consumer of articles he would wish to buy, that very class itself was injured in the long run by that species of legislation.—(Hear, hear.) But this, though a sound principle, and approved by the greatest writers, and acknowledged by Mr. Pitt, Lord Grenville, and Mr. Huskisson, and all who had taken a part in the commercial legislation of the country, who were worthy the name of statesmen, was not like the former principle in not being liable to opposition or easily admitted by all classes of the community. On the contrary, whenever a change of that kind was pro posed, they always found a fierce and violent struggle on the part of the protected interest, who maintained not only that itself and all belonging to it, but that the nation itself was interested in that particular branch of national industry.—(Hear, hear.) But though the truth of this principle was acknowledged, all sound writers and wise statesmen advised that caution and deliberation should be used in doing avvay with those duties. In fact, there were no laws on the subject—it was not a fit matter for legislation. If they found a person to commit a fraud or act of felony, it was quite fit to legis late and punish if they could, in order to prevent such crimes. But when a man was toilin g from morning until night, in order to pr o d uce a pi ece of manufacture, which he wished to exchange for some other article in order to support himself and family—such an act was worthy of all praise and approbation, and ought not to be inter fered with by legislation.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo sition.) How perverted was that spirit of legislation, which turned from a great deal of crime and vice, which it was unable to prevent, tried to discourage industry, to interfere with the natural exchange of productions, and to control that desire by which men were actuated to earn an h,locs.. livelihood ?—(Hear, hear.) if those were just principles of legislation, and if the opinions of those great men whom be had mentioned were right, it ought to be the object of a person enlightened as the Right Hon. Baronet professed to be and really was, to endeavour to break down those restrictions, to reduce and abolish those unjust monopolies, and, with all care and caution, restore a inure natural condition of society. With respect to sugar did the Right Hon. Baronet in terfere in any way to promote, or bring about, a just plan of legislation?—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposi tion.) On the contrary, did he not propose to continue by the law he brings in this year, a total prohibition against certain countries, who sent us sugar at a cheaper rate than that obtained from our own colonies? The Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to do this by maintain ing the present .prohibition, and the only ground for such a restriction was, that the sugar was the produce of slave colonies. He did think that the Right Hon. Ba ronet should have proceeded on something more solid than on that pretence of his.—(Hear, hear.) Supp , se that the negotiator (whose name he did not know) who had been sent froth - Brazil to Germany should come hete on his return, proposing to admit sugar from Brazil, he would naturally say, " You have no objection to admit slave-grown coffee, slave-grown cotton, or slave-grown tobacco—(Hear, hear)—none in the world. You have no objection to admit oter 9rti(.l"s which : - Irc F lave- , co -rov.o, u.. 4 , veil vdci, re.pt,,,,, LU 0,:g4, 1L.t.11, }']iii have no objection to send your manufacturei ' . . to &sail, . wad briDg sugar bra, laud th 4,4 w , • return for that sugar sent again to foreign countries, take from those countries, as from Russia, for instance, hemp, tar, and timber.—e' Hear, hear," from the orpo• sition.) It is much the same to do this as to consual the sugar itself. I understand that, last year, thouge you had scruples with regard to the sugar of Brazil, yee r f orders in Council admitted the slave-grown produce 0_ other countries." Then, for instance, vou would say I' him, " We admitted sugarfrom Venezuela, we may freely admit coffee, cotton, and tobacco, though slave - g eow— That you and that we have imported Venezuelian sugar. and indirectly encouraged slave-grown sugar, the P!°' duce of other countries, but we have scruples ghat prevent us from consuming slave-grown sugar. WI, would the Brazilian Ambassador stay to this? -e-on / laugh in your faces. He had heard the Right Ilen' Gentleman say that he did not intend that this arrange: ment of the sugar duties should be perpetual, and thhate he would continue the same mode of imposi n g e t a , duty on that article. The Right Honourable s., .ronet well knew that as long as the duties co tinued in their present condition the question woined be continually discussed in that House, der if not introduced by the Chancellor of the Exc heqau e. would be brought under their notice by other If s e , Members. With respect to the sacrifice of 1,300,00 es he did really think, without going to the extent of said ing that sugar, the prodere of foreign countries , she a be admitted on the same terms as that of our own ean°l4 nies, that great alterations might be made, and a g r i e y approach to free trade principles, at the same tim e 1115 0 / taining the revenue. He did not see that there seas tie cause for abandoning so large a portion of the revenset, With respect to the plan proposed by the Governme 4 proposing the reduction of nearly the whole amoune er surplus revenue, to within 70,000/ of the 300,0001- nee 400,0001. which we possessed, they put, in its st ead, eye income-tax, or, under such circumstanctss i n o rs words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "thr ee I hence we will have no alternative but to continue ,t,,b° income-tax, or be in a state of national insolvency e y e (Hear, hear.) He did not think it fair towardsecir House to propos* such a question without theedee, ration of the Government as to their intention , a n d te e ther it be their opinion that this property andincora d e - 55 , is one of the best resources which can be propose : elf permanent revenue. This would lead the House 'slider to the consideration of the case, and they would eons or at the same ti e, either through s Select Committee of in a Committee of the whole House, whether soieepol the great injustice and inequaliti' s of that tax 10 '0 t he be remedied. With regard to commercial r eforea . lit Right Hon. Gentleman hesitated to adopt the li g e . principle, not indeed when it could be done in an s g ee el able and easy manner, but when they knew they * e pe• have to contend with class interests and with In°,l o e, lists, and when great opposition was expected.---e"ete hear.) The Government ought well to consider theo; jest, and what the true interests of the country there; and they should not, at all events, endeavour to agesit vete the monopolies which at present e xisted ro e view was, that they msst indeed continue the i ail tax for the present, but that they should not hose cialos. the reductions which the Right Honourable might net proposed. He thought ose reductions IneTtli be made on cotton-wool and glass, bu t t belo respect to the other articles, some o f a 0 t o he thought ought not to be touched -at.-all ; an H ite a sugar, and some other articles, he would take r ir ies tal different course. His impres-ion was, as he had tete, said, that protection was the bane of agri et ;dea (Hear, hear.) He maintained that opinion as rig art all protective duties. Mr. Huskisson, some Y ea a s to showed how injurious it was to silk • and in Ca ns e selt timber duties, which operated so favourably tn‘tete our colonists there, had been, according to the; i de ment of Mr. Macgregor, the ruin of many far ai Le b e speculated largely in timber. At the same with admitted admitted that those protective duties should ee d a s olf drawn gradually and cautiously, rather than asl .? elef and abruptly ; but of this he felt confident, th at i st PP wished to get rid of the income-tax, they ta i t ee ete s d this mode of endeavouring to improve and „,.'-) , i ,' the resources of the country.--(Hear, bear.' more markets were opened, and if we ~ i soali ted larger imports, the demand for 15 1 a 0 % , ta,s; increase, manufactures would greatly ext elj e serw, - at the end of five or six years more, we might e ,,"" 'l l, ' hopes that the income-tax would be abolished' a ] ite question was, whether we were to have a porP e tr icti oo come-tax and a continuance of monopoly and r ee ibiliti: —he exclaimed against both. He felt the miff under existing circumstances, of withholding h in 1 1 it; from the proposition which the Chairman h a al a ° hand ; but with the hope that the income-tax o. . n i t fine' be converted into a permanent burden. The i/Il t v eCeL Gentleman bad taken such a course, as to mol 0 "a tin sary that this tax should be renewed ' at the end - n e te:a years, and so on from time to time; but he did h ow b 0 the pressure of this odious and inquisitori al es tad opened the eyes of the people to the disadvantagoelie6' suffered from commercial restrictions and IVe adz e' and by seeking to make trade free, procure gretnitiae tages—not the least of which would be the On id be r e ' an impost which, in times of peace, never shoo sorted to.—(Loud cheers.) eta ° ,Mr. ROEBIJOie: was disappointed at the coe 4s sil i : ,of atiee'meechhe Noble Lord, which he th i .°. ll , i Teel ieWtaeent con iision.—(Heses, hear, from the NI , I .Let, l t . . fi r ts e h h et . ) w il i t e h o h il t reviewed fadop ting e n v n er y y d it e e n m ide i d n th e e nu ß rs ta; . e to T ivl r Noble Lord knew well enough that the incom e : 0 00; three years was only a phrase of the Right Lit r aet, 1 but h B Baronet's—the t w o o n u e hl t ed ' s would — pr t o h epos trot Noble oat l ai sk L tei o n r tc d ht e k a n t e n w ehni t de h m a Le t nn i r t td, m aa e an a d e b t ib r ee le s ob e ° r ed; the Noble Lord ivould vote with him, as be O le Oef fe l press it to a division. He believed the Right Ll nil e ; , tleman did not act as he thought, and that he „P o ' el: as much in a right direction as he thought he f '''a in able to carry through both Houses. The itial i e b:i Baronet knew and appreciated the princiP de 'ter .A. failed in applying it.—(Hear, hear.) He wa s ee el; by the Hon. Members by whom he was su e h a d le i , He would ask the Right Hon. Baronet , ro le% abridged his estimate for the expenses of the a o f 1 0 ' s altered his position in that regard from th aS sert e year? He would not ask the Right Hen' e itital; what equivalent had this country gained by ,T. avo w in its immense colonial establishment, but u' ir idor ° ' say it should be matter for grave and serious CO' tion for this House, whether the country cle;;toiolbe equivalent for the expenditure incurred by mama 00 their colonial establishmente—(Hear, bear)'' &his 5 ,,et House should determine upon a continuation ° so) ee h ' ef colony, or this empire, so extensive that "t he t e 0 t er " a. sots on its limits ,'' as the phrase went, whY e ee e lititeest should pay for their indulgence in this expen se Oor ° 'lo As to the amount which the Right W e n ; e sei.,',s; said he would require for the expenses or tue'rfo cad g e ' s t stating that amount he had said the te t ee - a stations at which the principal nava l er iee ee el to be maintained, were China, •A n i ) f v/Le - e il the West Coast of Africa. Now he (gr . p . s ve"ip pass by two of them and come to the most elPia gii r i o , dangerous, that of West Africa ; and he ` you the — bi reference to that part, that all the efforts - ewes. of Baronet to put down the slave tiade in that ( l a eiga. i , the right of search project had total!' en d in I t o failed, and would end in disaster to all e n g °ge er br a V (Hear, hear.) Now, he would come to ite° rb j ests . oi of the question ; and assuming the expenses d b o e t it the Right Hon. Bar. met to he necestary,eaneoe wh e o a mates correct, he (Mr. R.) would a-k the -Y,' ? it h i s ) was the Honourable Baronet proposed to u n ey 11 , 8 47, this, he proposed to meet the defi nie , P ea r ' t eat he said would be felt up • to the a up teed. by the continuation of the income tax i 5 :000t;; 0 0 time, or, in other words. that he wen t° beet e e l es but he (Mr. Roebuck) would say it was incl i o tbi s h oli the Right Hon. Baronet to show the House t tie by f l oe a legitimate expenditure ; and that the eae, a b e tter e tli he proposed to raise this sum was not mil d p resa a ee a plan to which he (Mr. Roebuck) w°l• l ,, et cola' ee oe allude, but was better than any other pion . '" o gee " i 'les devised. The night Hon. Baronet further ee the House to remit or abolish certain taxe s 'is 5 ,0 f , O of commerce. Now he (Mr. Roebuck) aaattioati ortsbs ton,aes the Right Hon. Baronet's plan of increasea b L a t the , e 7O onerous, obnoxious, and mischievous, and "" bt to not about to be remitted were not those that olS o da felt moved. In fact, the Right lion. 13 , 51 :0 ha de eft amounted to simply this—that with one " ev ,..--(_ e v t edf taxes off, and with the other he put thar ° OS it hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet said he oko in fact, two millions, while he levied five ; but oula te n ilti to be either sum, he (Mr. Roebuck) c lies_ i t. ther e vela ea Right Honourable Baronet that mod cop l ee tea t honest, honourable, and equitable nio _ t ad be rt ioe That the income-tax was an unequal tex t proPf e ell proved. No man ought to be taxed lA' se eolli u , also to his power to pay ; and his power to Pe/ it we' t eo be ascertained by his sources of incoroe• __,,ea need ~, quite clear that a man whose income dere v l be t° -71 1 . / .. fluctuations of professional labour should nu on e, sif 0 o f of a man who derived his income from _ k• t wo r iot% the same amount, though his income be he s o o l:o as t : 0. ie a fee.simple estate.—(Hear, hear.) T'',`, vs au d fooer s t those different positions ; suppose efiL s i e eal 'woe, 1,000/. income as the result of his proeee est ee a e bote for one year ; and take another with ec . t resen t the"' tak i4 of income in the same year from lan ,s, aff irm yidsthe, _ on the Exchange, and he (Mr. R.) Ilan e a se dere„,,etts! both men to be forty years of age each, he a ; rei t e ea t income from the land would get tweritvnee -, - uld o(4 4ci t i° for it, where the professional man a , aess bee hear./ ? the 4 farthing of the money.--( stveti ° " 0 Old giv qualityt hink income-tax c b o e2 .. call attention to the mode in which ~, l io s the 00e and here, let him say that he did n '' so ees so a•i n a e d I! ittinganilitahot. thes li ta e x N o v •tio ° _ il e o li p eil li of this country should be subjeeted to e eo vi o at , B e was ds, .'wet was a system.—( l- lea r q • s isorial , ° beilt ' w et was looked upon and felt as iera n s i le e did tese exceed almost unendurable.— (Hear, hear-) , eis e a eow ootev a ot the oath of a party as to the a mount " e e d not A C were e d to be sufficient ; and surely it wo o , zeglan" de eo3 o for that the morals of the people I c ould la" t b a i t •1- so low an ebb as that this °in looked sire igloos. sufficient.—(Hear, hear.) li b it th e c)(3l°ll6' (li efir s j • the best and safest course; and Hon. Barone t tike 0 s But, suppose the Right ? To te e ts i e f to de what next did he purpose rnercial 011_0._ 4111 torial system at present used woulrYd,mbeet sovoenidtinedv.---effttiait;f; lion of' taxation on certain cons . i _ e the d c tar fe iiti doing that he had proposed to ,t e a_ t : w bee be P e e t e_ about four hundred different aruct: inter esto io l r i; avoided touching any of the h g - d left t hat g sta lfi he country.—(Hear, hear.) He : e , „ w ore ,_„„ e a . ., , of evil standing, to be re moved ai t e oebee k) . a ti sa" e ta; hands—(hear, hear)— but he (Mr. ' those crY i i s 'eerS;l would see the day soon come, when t awa y, ,e 0 e el ° f the monopolists, would be u 7 e lit i tiral and the Pt; es e Those great evils were the agri kor.) The ht et e a interests in this country — ( Hear, hn d of the Rig retet B th a a r t one a t, these was glanced over by the a , liege A r ta (6':01 Afi•ritsht-raatteoucharttishte m n o n s t.i a lo , ci n e ,. ...i - e r e l,pr r. f l h t: ii . _ it l i :` ebeera rine leetell'ee e 'Mai l " tr' ' . I. __ ( iiteii";s j ob r . co '- The agricalturists had a prodomi ~ sue gos , in a 1.6: - .Lriel' boila,l4c, il.,,te aci . , n r a l l in i " g u i ni quen , ... lbw; 544 whet woo Of leuPag e Ve . - , - ,-- - NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. M. GIBSON gave notice that, in Committee of Ways and Means, he should move an amendment to the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman at the head of the Government, that no alteration in the sugar duties will be satisfactory or permanent which does rot involve the equalization of duty on foreign and colonial sugar. INCOME-TAX. Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that he should move an amendment to the resolution for the renewal of the income-tax ; to leave out the words, " professions, trades, and offices."—(Cheers.) TRANSFER OF REAL PROPERTY (SCOTLAND). Mr. WALLACE wished to ask the Lord Advo cate when he intended to introduce his Bill for the purpose of facilitating the transfer of general property in Scotland ? the LORD ADVOCATE said the Bill had been for some time under the consideration of the Govern ment, and he hoped to introduce it before the recess. Mr. WALLACE wished al;o to know when it was likely the decision, with respect to the Weights and Measures Acts in Scotland, would be given ? The LORD ADVOCATE could not exactly say that he thought it would be before the Courts in Scotland rose. DUTY ON SPIRITS. Lord SANDON presented a petition from certain inhabitants in British Guiana, praying that molasses might be allowed to be used in breweries in Great Britain and Ireland, and praying that the duty on rum might be equalised with British spirits, and that the restrictions on sugar might be removed, so that the petitioners might have an even supply from fo reign States. THE SUGAR DUTIES. _ _ _ Mr. HASTIEWiSIed to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman, the First Lord of the Treasury, whether it was his intention, under the new Sugar Act, to admit West India sugar in the same class of sugar in which it had heretofore been admitted, namely, as Muscovado sugar ? There were 70,000 tons expected from the West Indies—of these 50,000 would be clayed, so that it was important to know what was the precise intention of the Government. Sir R. PEEL said he had stated they meant to make a difference between Muscovado sugar and white and clayed sugar ; but he thought it better to postpone all discussion on the subject till the sugar duties were brought before the House. Mr. GIBSON wished to ask the Right Hon. Gen tleman whether, in classifying sugars into clayed and Muscovado, and fixing the different rates of duty, he contemplated the adoption of the ad valorem principle of duty, and whether he meant, that the higher rate of duty should always apply to sugar of the greatest value ? Sir R. PEEL said that, assuming clay sugar gene rally to be more valuable than Muscovado, that would be the effect of the arrangement. Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to know from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) for what period he intended to propose the continuance of the new sugar duties ? Sir R. PEEL said that in making so great a change as that which he had proposed, he was not prepared to advise that the new sugar duties, sup posing they were passed by Parliament, should be continued beyond the sth of July, 1846. Mr. EWART moved for a return of the quantity of butter destroyed in bond in Liverpool during the past year.—Granted. PRINCE ALBERT. Mr. BORTHWICK wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury, whether there was any truth in a rumour which had appeared in the Morning Post and other newspapers. The rumour itself was one upon which he did not ask for any information, because it was sufAciently absurd to contradict itself. The statement was :—" It is rumoured, and, we believe, on good authority, that the title of king Consort is about to be bestowed on his Royal Highness Prince Al bert. This, we believe, is preliminary to apply ing to Parliament to increase the present grant." He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the question simply to afford him an opportunity of con tradicting a rumour, mischievous, absurd, and pre posterous in itself, but calculated to do very serious injury to the object of all their loyalty and affection ? Sir It. PEEL said it was not a good practice for Hon. Members to ask for explanations from the Go vernment of newspaper reports, particularly when an Hon. Gentleman found a rumour that was sufficiently absurd—(Great laughter)—to be its own contradic tion, and wanted no explanation from him. It was rather hard in that particular case that the llon. Gentleman should submit him (Sir R. Peel) to the ordeal of answering it. However, he must leave it to the decision of Honourable Gentle men themselves to ask such questions or to refrain from asking them, because he knew that inferences were sometimes drawn from silence. On the whole, perhaps, on the present occasion silence would be the best; but, to guard against the possibility of any erroneous inference, he would state, for the informa tion of the Hon. Gentleman, that that paragraph was totally without foundation.—(Hear, hear.) RAILWAY COMMITTEE. Lord HOWICK wished to put a question with respect to the railway department of the Board of Trade. He observed that all the reports of that Com mittee were signed by all the five members of it. Nov, he wished to know if, from that circumstance, they were to infer that all those five gentlemen sign ing that report concurred in it, and whether they were all of the same opinion? This question was of considerable importance, because, as it was now de termined that those reports were not to be conclusive, but only to be binding so far as they were consistent with reason, it of course had a very material differ ence in their authority, whether they were the unanimous opinion of those five gentlemen, or whether they were approved only by two or three of them. It struck him that, in a vast number of railway projects, it was almost im possible to find five gentlemen of the same opinion ; and, in point of fact, with respect to one of them, at least, it was not so, for one of the five gentlemen did not vote; the other four were equally divided ; and the question was finally decided by the Chair man of the Committee giving his casting vote. He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would have no objec tion to state what was the fact, whether the gentle men signing the report all concurred in such an opi nion or not. He should also like to ask whether it was the intention of the Board of Trade to lay before the House, as an appendix to their report, the statements of the competing companies, on which their reports were founded ? It was of great importance that the House should possess the statement of each company, and the documents which they had laid before the Board of Trade, upon which the reports of that Board had been founded. Sir GEORGE CLERK said that with regard to the first question, he believed, there was no precedent for it. He believed that when a report was made by any public Board, that report was to be taken as the act of the Board collectively. It was the first time that any question had ever been asked as to what discussions had taken place at the Board, and he must decline giving any answer, because, if he were to do so, it would be establishing a dangerous and inconvenient precedent, and he trusted that neither the Noble Lord nor the House would draw any inference from his silence.—(Cheers and laughter.) With regard to the second question, he had to state that the Board of Trade had no intention of laying before the House the voluminous statements which had been submitted to them by the various parties to railway schemes. He believed there would be no objection to laying those statements before the House if the Noble Lord should think them necessary. But in the future progress of those schemes no doubt the parties interested would lay before the Committee of that Board all the statements they had to make, either in recommendation of their own schemes or in oppo!ition to the schemes of their rivals ; and the only objection he had for laying the papers before the House was, that they were very voluminous, and would take a long time to copy. Mr. ROEBUCK begged to observe, with regard to the first question put by the Noble Lord, that a statement had been distinctly made that certain mem bers of the Board had voted, and their names had been mentioned.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Howick.) It had been stated that a casting vote had been given by the head of the Board of Trade.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Howick.) If a casting vote had been given, there must have been an equal division of the persons voting, as no person possessed two votes. All the parties, therefore, must have voted. This led to a most important conclusion.—(Hear, hear.) Now, in such a state of things it would not do, now-a-days, to shut out investigation.—(Hear.) They must know all and everything.—(Hear, hear.) If not suspicion would rest upon those who shut out the light—(Hear, hear)—and, if so, such a tribunal would not be a satisfactory one for the guidance of Parliament, and he believed that Parliament would utterly discard the recommendations emanating from such a tribunal, and would proceed with their inves tigation as if no such reports had been made. eo ll r I d r hadintended comeWALLACE ea A t down wp w nu a was not aware that the Noble any such question, but to the House with a report of the Board of Tradelauhg4e.) notice in his pocket.— I:3etn Th p e rin fi te r d st , table ri theto and he now gave notice that move that there should be laid on the t l House all the documents on which that report had been founded, so that the House might understand what had been done.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that this was an unprecedented INCOME-TAX. The Order of the Day for going into a Com mittee of Ways and Means was then read, Mr. GREENS in the Chair. On the motion that the income-tax be continued, being put, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he was very glad that the Right Hon. Gentleman had consented to postpone, for another day, the decision of the House on this question, because the more he thought of the question the more he conceived its importance to be great and greater even than the Right Honourable Gentleman himself seemed to suppose. If he could agree with the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Kendal, who seemed to be greatly enamoured of this tal, and thought that - it ought to be permanent, he could find some comfort, because he believed it was approaching to that accomplish• ment—(Laughter)—but, for his own part, be had been accustomed to consider the income-tax neces sary, indeed, in great emergencies—for the carrying on of a war of an arduous and costly nature, but subject to some of the greatest objections which could be urged against any tax.—(Hear, hear.) He had always been of opinion that it was unequal, and vexation and fraud were inherent in the tax. It was impossible to deny its inequality, for no man would say it was equal that a person whose income was derived from a landed estate or the funds, which he could leave to his children entire, was in the same po sition as a person in a profession—a surgeon or an artist—whose bread depended on the continuance of his health, or who, by the loss of a limb or a defect of eyesight, might at any moment be deprived of his income. —(Hear, hear.) No person could say that those two perss should be considered in the same light. Ne ither could any person fairly deny that great vexation was inseparable from that tax—that a person engaged in trade, who was obliged either to submit to the payment demanded of him, or show all his accounts, and the matters in which he was engaged, was not subject to very great vexation. With regard, to the fraud and evasion, he believed no man who had been concerned in the collection of this tax would deny that great frauds were practised under it ; that the man of the most integrity and the most honour paid the tax fairly and was subjected to the least reduction, while those who wished to evade the law either found the means of doing so, or entangled the Government and them selves in the most expensive proceedings. Such being the evils of this tax he had heard with surprise from the Right lion. Gentleman on Friday night that they were inseparable from it. He had sometimes thought that by different modifications, by alterations with respect to uncertain incomes, and by changing particular provisions which bore hard upon particular classes, the tax might be rendered less vexatious. The Right Honourable Gentleman had had three years to observe the operation of the tax, and there was no reason why he should not wish to make it more equal and less vexatious if he could. Yet he declared that it was impossible so to do, and that he would show by argument that any attempt of that kind would but aggravate the injustice. He did not pretend that the process was not vexatious and inquisitorial.—(Hear, hear.) But what he argued on the last occasion on which the property tax: was imposed was, that any attempt to make any alteration would lead to a greater injus tice than that which it cured. He did not, and he could not prove:that the defects were such as could not be remedied, but what he proved was that they were inseparable from the nature of an income-tax. What, then, was the conclusion ? Why, that this was a tax whose great merit was its productiveness to the revenue, but which could only be imposed on great and urgent necessity. When the Right Hon. Baronet pro posed the income-tax last year, he alleged in its defence the necessities of the times. He said that, although they were at peace with the powers of Europe, yet the addi tions made to the armament in the Mediterranean, the war with China, with all the expenses which it entailed, the war in Canada in the west, and near the Indus in the east, though they did not amount to an European war, constituted circumstances of emergency which, in his opinion, justified the imposition of the tax. He went still further, and said, that in imposing this tax, he would not consider only the sum which it was requisite to raise to balance their income and expenditure, but to make a provision for the alteration of certain duties on customs, that would increase commerce and invigorate industry, thereby trying an experiment which he thought would succeed in improving the condition of the people, and at the same time get back the amount of revenue that had been sacrificed. He thought he was not stating inaccurately the grounds on which the Right Hon. Ba ronet based the tax on its original imposition. But in addition to the grounds so stated, they had also the re marks of the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, during the last year, to the same effect. The Right lion. Gentleman, in adverting to the Budget he was then introducing, explained the various reductions that were made, among which were several that did not come into full operation till lately. The Right. Hon. Gentleman then said—" I am not able, on the short ex perience we have had, to conjecture what would be the result of the reductions, still less what view the House would be disposed to take in the course of next year. 7n this year the income-tax would come under conside ration again, and then it would be for the House to de termine whether it should continue or not. Such being the case it must be obvious to every one that he should not be acting an honest part if he induced the House to consent to any large reduction of duties, which could only have the effect of preventing Parlia ment from coming to an unfettered judgment on this subject, because if the reductions diminished other branches of the revenue the House would have no al ternative but to reimpose the tax or take refuge in na tional insolvency." The First Lord of the Treasury was said to be very reserved with respect to his inten tions, but he (Lord John Russell) must own that he did not think he would have been so reserved as to conceal his intentions from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.— (Hear.) He had just given the grounds on which the latter declined to make any great reduction of duties. Now, in bringing forward his propositions the other evening, the Right Hon. Baronet lost sight of both these grounds; and he certainly expected that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have shown some particular cir cumstances in the condition of the country, which called for a remedy of a formidable and searching nature. He had scarcely touched upon either of these topics. He had never given any statement as to the reduction of the revenue. The Right lion. Gentleman took a very popu lar course—a course which produced great enthusiasm, but which he thought was one attended with no incon siderable danger to the country. The Right Honour able Gentleman showed that if they went on with out an income-tax, there would be a small defi ciency, the year after next, in the income--that would be a ground for continuing the income-tax for a short time, and the resolutions in the Chairman's hand seemed to justify the continuance of that tax for a short time. But the Right Hon. Gentleman went on with the consideration of a great number of other taxes, and the duties which he proposed to abolish, and then, when he had totally destroyed the surplus which remained, and left only 70,000 L, he took advantage of the popu larity which the abolition of taxation caused to induce the House to consent to the income- tax. The result of that course would seem to be the imposition of the in come-tax, not merely for three years, but perpetually. (Hear, bear.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken another course—if he had said, " Now look at my tariff —see what my tariff has produced ; see that, although the duties have not entirely recovered from their reduction, they have been gradually increasing, and in three years I hope the original amount will be restored." The Noble Lord went on to say that he regretted the course the Right Honourable Baronet had taken ; no period in history could be shown in which the revenue had, from a reduction of taxation, ir.creased to the amount of 6,000,000/. ; for that, in three years, should be the amount it should increase to, in -order to balance the deficiency. It was not assigned as a reason for the continuation of the income-tax, the position in which this country was placed by reason of its relations with foreign States, because the Hon. Baronet said they were at peace with all foreign powers ; neither was it justified by reason of the rpAticron or th , —. l J - I:thn duties the Hon. Baronet had proposed ; ttierefore he (Lord John Russell) was justified in swing that the