The Sun. — London, England, 1850-04-16 00:00:00

bt refe r it be i t - o f e b bs io ) r, hello " 0 00 O r a eat, 8 " d o f . !s ot) be r.) he time 0 , ben e is be 'Old' - I P) r, be e I s at vibe ir ,teige a o se li p'. 03 ,0," THE SUN, Chancellor of the Exchecit:er) stated as to relief from taxation was this, that he proposed a measure with re gard to stamps, the loss upon which would bo. somewhere under 300,000/. ; and another mervure with regard to the duty on bricks, the loss upon which would be some what over 450,0004 ; or (eking the two together, a loss of 750 000/. The Hon. Gentleman said, now that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had, somehow or other, a surplus of 300.0001. But he was a t a l oss to know wh ence i t was to come. When he stated that the measure he proposed with regard to stamps would in volve a loss of somewhere under 300,000 L, he at the same time stated that he proposed to relieve transactions of a small amount, as he had done, and increase those of a larger amount; and that upon a balance he should lose 300,000/.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI said the Right Honourable Gentle mite had spoke,' of an ad valorem duty, as well as of the remission of a lower duty, which was to be accepted as a c ompensation in relief of small proprietors. But what did the Honourable Gentleman mean to do with the 300,000/. in teat case ? To Wk of a balance was a very convenient fiction, but there was nothing said of a ba lance when there was talk of a compensation. The Committee was now told that the loss on the balance would be 350,000/. That was not the original idea of the budget. In fact, it now turned out that, instead of of i a s renatssion of taxat i on, there woul d b e an i ncrease The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated disti nct l y that there was to be an ad valorem duty, and that e lowerin the lesse r d uty w i t h out i ncreas i ng t h e higher cvoulcrbe a e quiva l ent to a l oss o f 300,00 0 1. the l ose Mr. GO ULBURN wished t, know on w h a t p r inciple in ilo a . Gentt question had been calculat e d. The Right tort span said that if th e d u ti es on l arge an d sma ll More reduced wer e one -h a lf, t h e l oss wou ld no t b e than 60 000/. _. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there would be a loss vevances—the re- great on con . duction on that branch alone was calculated at FOO,OOO/. The increase in small transactions, it was hoped, would help the venue ; and it was t up re s eed r us that p art i es would get instruments stamped here af 'who had n ever got them stamped before. He cal- Ciliated that something would be gained on this as well as on.mortgages. Mr. MACKENZIE asked how it was proposed to enforce stamping a large transaction? It might be evaded after the passing of this Act as it was before. T he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it Wee not worth while. Mr, HENLEY said the sum of 60,0001. fixed by the the Ho n . G entleman was so precise, that it was clear nem must be m ater i a l s i n the possess i on of the Go ' _ernment whereon to base it. He, therefore, thought the information should not be withheld from the House. , The em eeeTORNEY• GENERAL said it would be seen Would the we:ll)l%mm estimate of coaveyances that there would h ee a considerable saving in transactions up to 1,000/. The common stamp of 9/. would suffice to that su m' From that to 100,000/. the scale was nearly the watt" as the present. Conveyances beyond 100,0001. e_ere very rare. The proceeds of the present scale were 247,5481. ~ lOs e which was equivalent in stamps to 4 .' 49 /. Ss. 6d. The loss on conveyances, therefore, Would, be 2 66,299/. 4s. 6d., assuming the same number '.3.1 transactions after the passing of the Bill as before. If bthe losses from leases for years and following stamps ore added, it would amount to 300,0001. All that, t u ter, was of course a matter of estimate. Mr..._ r. HENLEY considered that the House had cause ..2 complain i n the matter. The Hon. Secretary for the reeTreasury said he could obtain no return of the stamps on nve Yitiaoes e _ w but the Attorney-Gen er al, nev e rth e less, -.in e d the House exactly what the amount of the trans _aftions svere. H e was, t h erefore, i n possess i on o f d ata ~gnich had not been commueicated to the House. e e CHANCELLOR o f t h e EXCHEQUER cou ld !dance r a los s b ut he could not prove a gain in this in- Th'e Government knew the number of stamps to 'as markt, but th ey could not tell how many would . required for mortgages, or how many for convey -11" s Th • ey could only calculate a each. Mr• DRI LLINGS said the 15/. s t a mps were not ap plicable to conveyances; they were only used in mort gages and settlements. He had it from good authority at the oceeds of the stamp duty on the conveyance of .„.,mortgages of from 10,0001. to 15,0001., and on settle ments from 12,0001. to 15,0001., were 4.5001. or 4,6001. ~Taking them as all for mortgages, it would give an average Lt.. 12,3001. but; taking two-thirds as mortgages and one- Pird as settlements, and taking off 4,500 L, it would i.eavoe 4,250/. R educing this by omissions to 12,0001, ' would give the stamps 300,0001., u number equivalent to 4,500/. Sir 11. WILL OUGHBY said the Bill imposed new t ax es, which ought to have a full discussion. Under the jsill agreements fir leases would be taxed for instance. The CHA NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there was no absolutely new tax in the Bill; but he thought it would be more convenient to call attention to the points in question as the clauses were proceeded with. Mr. BRIGHT said there was an almost universal opinion that the 13111 would increase taxation, in place of giving any relief. As f ew Hon. Members wero conver sant with" the natur e of the Bill, he suggested that it should be sent to a Select Committee, to whom the whole question of stamps could be referred. He was favourable to an ad valorem duty; but he wished one of a lower per eentage than that fixed by the Bill, which in his opinion woulit be a heavy tax as it stood upon all large transac tions in landed property. leThe SOLICITOR -GENERAL said if the Bill was llt to a S e l ect C ommittee there would be a number of 'Ong statements in evidence, and a big blue book; but the question itself would be absolutely where it was. Be- Tzides 1-.' , which he believ e d t h e f orms of the House would that. admit of such a course o f p rocee di ng . He believed Ge,the country would be greatly b ene fit e d b y t h e re „(.7,t411; but h e a l so b e li eve d t h at t h ere would be a loss l u rfalent to 300,000/. on the whole transaction. Itt Alr . MITCHELL backed the suggestion of the Hon. --,-_-etnber. for Manchester. He also thought the Bill should " considered in a Select Committee. The Bill would lay a h reayvY tax upon land, inasmuch as conveyances repr!. n - islted property, while mortgages represented debt. _ I_ se l ee e ° ,P ill iore an ad valorem duty of 8 per cent. would be '''''eut, and was an ground to im .Pose. as much as there y be understood, , SADLEIR said that the more the Bill came to _ alluderktood, the more general would be the objections ea to it. At present few comprehended its bearing; 7Ya the members of the Government itself were not of agreement with one another on the subject—the Chan !!llor of the Exchequer stating one thing, and the At- Z,?reill-General stating another. As regarded Ireland, toastse Government, in his opinion, had taken a most unfor ,otin, moment to apply the provisions of the Bill to that Batheq•Y' Seeing tha whichs almost impossible to dispose nTt_ large estates existed there under the en '!Le..red Estates Commission. The purchaser would ti!ate the ad valorem duty upon the stamp, and de duct it from the h was another cl ass d puhase money. But t ere I the 1 eserving the consideration of the House—name y, te r‘ , 4 4r ge class of proprietors who might be able to pre- . Wes ' e i• P°rti cie of their property by effecting voluntary se ) , o f the remainder without coming within the opera d - Illteetc'e the Encumbered Estates Act. The proposed comp ion would operate I uon them. The 1 "gill Fat e 1 very several u Cork, Limerick, lit,' classes in Belfast, Dublin, . . e rfowish,, rd bad been unable to communicate their le nd _ s to the Government, and the bankers and the ei ,. I.ld interest were in the same position. Under these prieeterstancee, he hoped the Government would not ev ents with the Bill at the present moment, or, at all ti,rllll,. that ample time would be allowed for its con -4t Win before taking the next stage. IIee.,,IIIIME could not understand the objection of the deri ve be opposite, because if any class would 1, the benefit from the passing of this measure it would W ould Proprietors and purchasers of Irish property, who , 1 1,000( to enabled to sell portions of property under * eir _ at a reduced duty.—(Hear, hear.) When they texi:tie_seured by the Government that the amount of Presentutt Under this Bill would be less than under the eYate is it e duty of .3 , the sum of 300,000/., he considered se e that 4 °f the House to support the reduction. It was I) there be met 3' tea . e decrea , e on the smaller sums would file ltiere - pe e nee on the larger ones; but he considered thide e Icked distribution more equal than the former, to th Wh ich a l xempted MI e in' arge mass of property had been e „: Co Jury of the community at large. He trusted igurd e ,„7 `„‘teo would proceed with the Bill, in order to uee e , 0 ' - 'let to who had hitherto the smaller proprietors kr b 'tleh 0 gees nod co,_ ppressed. Hon. Members :Yere 40t ou h rzy said that as many tl e oneh e d re Pered to go into the discussion, and as most -e trusted v e answers had been given by the Government, 4ideseti, the Committee would defer the further con- Lord J, o jthe Bill to a future time.—(Hoar.) t u• R USSELL could how the postpone not see . °F th e n• teeb e ill for a week or a fortnight would assist tit) 3 e t which Nu. Me m b er let) Ilon. Members had in view. The I, for Carlow objected to the proposed alter actiell 4 , ° _,ceount of the conditioti of Ireland. That ob -17, th e i ll i lL i t , l:lot appi.. y onside to the present consideration roese,,„io °lit to its ration at any period during aim the ant Would, if successful, - of the R# de feat the consider- N 4 lea n - • - earnp Acts altogether. The subject had umits! Jeers attracted public observation. The in .apoe, t i r ot ° ' tl i te stamp duty on land had been remarked ( .7 ene miit °nY in writing and at public meetings, but . by Itlire into the of the House of Lords, appointed to in t.elit h ards t ° inequality of the Stamp Acts and the t ea Char P inflicted on the smaller proprietors by the d t teuti eu 'rl,4e placed upon them. Last year the b e voted 4 ° ' the Chancellor of the Exchequer was "talee thet'e the subject, which was brought l'tese notice of the House early in the 4 ant Ben ,(3.11. Friend n, and about a month ago his Right t*rieli h e inters pointed out the nature of the measure Oty 0 Intended to propose —namely, to diminish the 441 ll 4 sil lall s of 4 Or . er conveyances, and the transaction 00 , propriet ), ittrger °re, and at the same time to make duties tie b„ transactions more equal. After the details l ite • be given A ~ tee etes _ , and the resolution proposed. many con "no h ~"4 51 Were received ley his Right Hon. Friend, ti; il m end e Jeetistl. ..aTOOred. as far as possible, to obviate the °R ukf. w . Plch had been raised.—(Hear, hear.) But, (pthe ui r, would no inconvenince arise from delay oreee_ _alure for a month, and keeping the public in i t. i ' et the intentions of the House?—(Hear, hear.) ' 1 leen veee i t . t et 02 _ 4 eece always resulted from the postpone _lispt i 0 ! sures of this kind, many transactions being ~t l_ th„ r,,i_beyance. If there was a general agreement 'ilee to t'Lcciple tf the measure, let the Committee at 4 ° 1 14, 14 ° EL consid • j e „ pro ere _ consideration of the details, in order that :Cciee the r m might be made.—Hear, hear.) The oh .. th e e T i e! . by the Hon. Member for Bridport applied th in e etis ' .. ,trig Act as much as to the measure now tok thac.cretion. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to Zee„7 2,a, ‘ ,„ 4 ruan with an estate of 50,000/., mortgaged wi - t: , would be in a worse position thee a t O . OO Ol, e," estate worth 20,0001., mortgaged for fo laq ii i r "lit this was not a matter for Parliament I,r 4zltiqlitllnto. , If, however the object was good a„1; amount , t applied equally to the present Act. 1 ; ti nt ~, el duty on property exceeding 5,060/, 'MM . th - '°le than 10,000 L, Wa3 121.; but exceeding me hang Rigs 251. The objection, therefore, was not tenable; but that and all other objections would tie bettAt considered as they arose on the different clauses.—(Hear.) Mr. MUWATT said, when he considered that th•D sff.ct cf the Bill would be to facilitate the transfer f small pot tions of land—that it would relieve the pressure of stamps upon mortgages, conveyances, &c., having re lation to small properties, while it would extend the equitable principle of ad valorem taxation to large pro perties—he was at a loss to discover on what ground the measure could be objected to. Mr. MITCHELL said his remark was intended to show that whilst the duty on mortgages ought ti be as low as possible, the amount would now be 501. for what was formerly charged 251. Mr. HEALD said, that after giving a portion of re lief out of the surplus revenue, the Bill would increase the taxation on interests of more than 1.000/.—(ll,ear, hear.) He wished to know how much the Chancellor of the Exchequer calculated the Treasury would Lae by granting relief in cases up to 1.000/ ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said upon all conveyances up to 1,300/. there would be po sitive relief. Upon all c , inve)ances from 1,3001. to 100,0001. it was the same, or nearly the same thing; for whilst et present the amount jumped from thousand to thousand, it was proposed to make it jump from hun dred to hundred, and the consequence would be that the stamp on every sum between 1001. and 5001. would be diteinishA, whilst above that sum it would be increased. lie calculated the lo4s to the revenu'l upon the whole of the conveyances, upon sonic of the mortgagee, and on leases, would be somewhere under 300,000/. By the alteration which he proposed tonight, in reducing tao stamp duty on mortgages and bonds from one-half per cent. to one-quarter per cent., he expected to incur an other loss ; but, believing that by so doing he could in crease the number of transactions on which the stamp duty was laid, he calculated the loss upon the whole of the two schedules to be from 330,0001. to 350,0001, Mr. LAW said the object of the Right Hon. Gentle mal was stated to be a reduction of the duty on amounts under 1,000/.. and his calculations were based on that sum, and he (Mr. Law) believed there existed a general desire to relieve those parties who were liable to the payments to that extent. But there existed on that (the Opposi tion) side of the House such an " ignorant impatience of taxation," that they were not prepared to receive any additional burden.—(Hear, hear.) Mortgages were very ill able to bear a stamp. Mr. SPOONER remarked that the Right lion. Gen tleman had not answered the question of the Right Hon. Member for Stockport, who wished to know what would be the loss upon the reduction if there should be no ad dition. Lord D. STUART believed the Chancellor of the Exchequer would show a great increase from the pro posed alteration. But at all events it would be a great relief to the poor,'itind a step towards a fair apportion ment of taxation between the poor and the rich. In many cases the poor man paid 40 times as much as the rich, but by the Bill he would only pay about twice as much. He was surprised that the Hon. Member for Manchester should wish to delay the measure, which was calculated to facilitate the transfer of those freehold properties which the Hon. Member was so desirous of placing in the hands of the middling and lower classes. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON trusted the Committee would proceed with the Bill, which would confer a great benefit on persons making transfers not exceeding 1,300/. —(Hear.) But whether it might be wise to give the ad dition asked for was another question.—( Hear, bear.) He hailed the Bill with satisfaction, considering it a step in the right direction; but, in recommending the Com mittee to proceed with it, he was not at all prepared to adopt the ascending scale.—(Hear.) Mr. MULLINGS said the Bill was in a most imper fect state, and required much more consideration, inas much as it proposed to tax property which had hitherto not been liable to stamp duty, such as annuities, rents, Government debentures, &c., from which a considerable revenue would be derived. The CLIANCELLOR of tho EXCHEQUER said if the Hon. Member would submit his suggestions on the subject to the Government they should receive careful attention. Mr. SANDARS thought they ought to be informed what would be the actual loss on the remission of taxa tion, without reference to the expected increase. He also pointed out the heavy tax inflicted on parties who had to register memorials in the register counties of York and Middlesex. Mr. HUDSON advocated the postponement of the dis cussion for a week. He had been in communication with gentlemen connected with the legal profession, who had pointed out many objections to the measure; and he thought, therefore, that some further time ought to be afforded for its consideration.—( Divide, divide.) After some further conversation, the first clause was agreed to. On clause 2, Mr. SADLEIR wished to know how the case would stand with instruments executed prior to the passing of this measure. lie knew that one of the most eminent conveyancers, who had carefully examined this clause, thought that the greatest difficulty would he found in affixine: the proper duty, and to know whether they would come under the old or new law. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, if the Honour able Member would refer to the end of the first clause, he would find the difficulty removed; for it was there provided that the old duties contained in schedule A should be repealed, except as to so much and in such parts of the said duties respectively as should have ac crued in respect of any deed or instrument signed or exe cuted, or which should bear date before or upon the sth July, 1850. So that all duties and all penalties on deeds executed t:efore that day woted come under the old Act, and those executed subsequently under the new. Mr. IL PALMER asked if the exemption in favour of building societies was t ► he continued? The ATTOItNEY•GENERAL was understood to say that no alteration would be made as regarded the exemptiour. The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 3 and 4, sifter a short conversation. On:clause 5, which makes all persons receiving moneys for stamp duties, and misappropriating the same, debtors to the Crown, Mr. HENLEY wished to know what would be done with the deed in such cases? Was the party who had been defrauded of the stamp duty to be deprived of the use of his deed? Mr. WALPOLE asked how a good title could ever be made to the estate of a solicitor under such a law, for how could it be known to what extent he might be a debtor t) the Crown? Mr. LAW asked if a party who bad paid the amount of duty so misapplied would he allowed to have the benefit of his deed on proving that he had paid the money ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was un derstood to say that the stamp would be made good in such cases. The clause was then agreed to. On clause 6, which raises the penalty on deeds stamped after execution from 51. to 101., and makes other altera tions in the mode of imposing it, Mr. SADLEIR protested against the innovation con tained in this clause. At present parties were enabled to get a deed stamped within sixty days after execution in Ireland, and six weeks in England, without any ex planation or affidavit. Had this practice worked ill? Had it led to any fraud, or had there been any complaint from the solicitor of stamps, or any protest against it? None whatever, while many very important classes of the community would be found strongly in favour of maintaining the present system. It was moat unwise to multiply occasions for administering oaths, and he knew many who entertained strong objections to making the long affidavits which were often required for the pur pose of stamping deeds after the prescribed period had elapsed. He objected, moreover, to giving the Commissioners the discretion of requiring oaths at their pleasure. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that under the present system an affidavit was required after the ex piration of six weeks. That alteration was found neces sary in consequence of the frequent occurrence of cases in which the duty was not paid at all until it became ne cessary to sell the estate, and then after a lapse of years the stamp was impressed on payment of the penalty of 5/. He knew an instance of this kind where a man held an estata for five•and-twenty years without paying any stamp duty at all. At the end of :that time the estate was sold, and it was found that a stamp of 1,0001. was payable, and this was obtained on payment of a penalty of 5/., the vendor having enjoyed the interest for 25 years. He knew another case of the same kind, in which a deed had remained unstaraped since 1834. Alter some further discussion the clause was agreed to. Clause 7 was agreed to after certain words had been omitted, on the motion of Alderman THOMPSON. On clause 8, Mr GOULBURN thought this clause would impose an additional charge on the public, by allowing station ers to charge as they pleased for stamped paper. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that at present a vendor of stamps charged what price ho pleased for all stamped paper, except receipt stamps. It was proposed by this clause to put receipt stamps on the same footing in that respect as other stamps. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that there was no profit on receipt at...tic ps to the seller. After a few words from Mr. CARDWELL and Mr. FORSTER, in opposition to the clause, Mr. HUME thought that Government ought to fix the sum which sellers o; stamps should charge. If the clause was not altered, he should move it be struck out. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he would not insist oa the clause. Clause struck out. On clause 9, Mr. SADLEIR understood the Chancellor cf the Ex chequer to state that it was not intended to impose any duty on deeds at present exempted. He wished the right Hon. Gentleman, if that was his intention, to state so decidedly. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would state his intentions when they came to the schedule. The clause and the remaining clauses were then agreed to. On schedule A (the repealing schedule) being pre,- posed, Mr. MULLINGS wished to introduce certain words into the schedule for the purpose of reducing the duty on agreements up to a certain amount. Mr. HUME wished to know what corresponding duties the Hon . Member proposed to enact ? Mr. MULLINGS said he had a clause which he would propose to introduce into schedule B, respecting corresponding duties•. At present he proposed to insert in schedule A words to the effect that in agreements con taining less than 1,080 word', there should be a duty of 2s. 61 ; and for every other 1,030 words, a further duty cf 2s. 61 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that, as the law at present stJod, agreements containing un.tier 1,080 words were charged with a duty of 2s. 6d., anal 355. for every further 1,050 words. As he understood the pro posed alteration, the effect of it would be to keep the LONDON, TUESDAY !EVENING, APRIL 16, 1850, first charge of 2s. 60. as at present, but to make the second charge 2s. 6d. instead of 355. That would cause a emtsiderahle loss to the revenue. After a short conversation, C HANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Hon. Gentleman had not given notice of his proposed amendments, as he hal of his clauses; and as his propo sition would involve a loss to the revenue, he thought there ought to be some time allowed to consider it. The CHAIRMAN asked whether the Hon. Member intended pressing his amendment? Mr. MULLINGS—I do. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had not had an opportunity of considering the proposal, and only wanted time for that purpose. Mr. HUME suggested to the Hon. Member not to press his motion to a division under the circumstances. Mr. ROEBUCK also said it was only fair to give time for the consideration of the proposition. Mr. HUME—Give notice. - The amendment was then understood to have been withdrawn, and schedule A agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved that schedule B should be agreed to. In doing so he said he proposed to make a reduction of from one half to a qusrter per cent. He proposed to reduce the duty upon bonds for any bum not exceeding 501. to from sg. to 24. 6 I , and not, exceeding 100/. from 104. to 5.1. Mr. GOULBURN said he did not approve of the principle of an ad valorem duty being appliedin matters of revenue. If they were prepared to go on with that principle they would make the lower part of their scale so low that it would entail considerable loss upon the revenue, while they would be obliged to make the higher part too high. Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether it was to be supposed just that the poor man, who only wanted to borrow 101., should pay as much in proportion as the rich one who wanted to borrow 10,000/.? The small sum to the indigent person was of greater consequence than the larger sum to the opulent man.—(Hear.) Mr. GOULBURN said he had at an esrlier part of the evening stated his opinion with respect to the bene fits derived by the community at large and the com mercial affairs of the country from affording facilities fur the execution of securities for advances of large sums of money. By imposing heavy burdens upon such trans actions they imposed restrictions upon the employment of capital, which would act in a very injurious manner. If they were going to fix an ad erloremiduty it should be done so as to press lightly upon the lower party. Mr. ROEBUCK said if the Right Hon. Gentleman wished to make his rule from the bottom of the scale to the higher part of it he would agree with him; other wise he would oppose him. Mr. DISRAELI said if they adopted the ad valorem duty, be agreed with the principle that the first step ought to be moderate. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said at present there was a duty on bonds exceeding 501. of 55., that he proposed reducing to 2s. 6d.; and he proposed making a proportionate reduction on the present scale of duties like that which he had stated. He proposed that the duty on no bond should exceed 25/., no matter what the sum. By the present law, if a trader or shopkeeper wanted to borrow 5001., he had to pay a stamp duty of 121., while the party who wanted to borrow 500,000/. only paid 25/. That was an injustice and an anomaly which he wished to remedy. After a short conversation, in which several Hon. Members took part, An Host. MEMBER (whether Mr. Mullings or Sir H. Willoughby we could not ascertain) was understood to move as an amendment that the sum of I s. be substituted for 2s. 6d. in the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. DISRAELI said what they were then endeavour ing to do was to construct a new system, and while doing so they should try to construct it upon a just principle. —(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer alluded to what was anomalous and monstrous in the old system, as if they were responsible for it more than himself, and as if that reference was an argument for the course he had pursued on the present occasion. The Right Hon. Gentleman argued as if there were two questions before the House—namely, the con. sideration of the interests of the rich and poor. As far as he understood the matter, be conceived they were en gaged in au endeavour to be equally just to the poor as well as the rich, and it was said the ad valorem system ought to be carried into effect with respect to both. It was necessary that in any initial step which they made in that matter they should take up that position, that while they relieved the poor as much as possible they would impose no improper or impolitic burdens on the more wealthy portions of the community. He should support the motion of his Hon. Friend if he proceeded to a division, as he hoped he would.—(Hear.) Mr. ROEBUCK said there was another element in the whole of that discussion which had been left out by the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire. They had a reve nue to raise. The Bill itself was a most mischievous Bill—one t,f the worst that could be introduced. It was one only for raising money, and as such he accepted it under an impression of its direful necessity. But he would put the question, what was to be received by that Bill. If the House took his advice, they would throw it out of doors altogether. It was a most mis chievous Bill, because of its interference with the ad ministration of justice, and could only be tolerated on the score of the revenue which they were told was to be raised by it. He would like the Chancellor of the Ex chequer to tell them what would be the amount of re►e nue raised if they began with Is. instead of 2s. 6d. Mr. BANKES said, that question had not arisen from a necessity, but a surplus in the revenue.—(Hear, hear.) It was that extraordinary incident of a surplus which bad given rise to the present discussion.—(Hear.) He confessed that his impression of that portion of the sub ject, when listening to the debate on the budget, was very different from what it was at present. He had thou heard nothing of an ad valorem duty.—(Hear.) He had heard nothing but of some small relief applicable to the land. But if he was in error it might be so. However, they had now come, it seemed, t) an ad valorem duty; and if it was to be an admitted principle, let them prove how they were to act upon it.— (Hear.) Mr. HUME said he believed it would be better to begin at Is. than at 2s. 6d. He bad been informed that if a considerable reduction was made in the amount of those duties the humbler classes would very much in crease the number of their deposits in large offices; so that the Exchequer would perhaps suffer no loss from the a' teration. ➢lr. HENLEY said it should be remembered that they were dealing with a surplus, and not with a defi ciency; and as, according to the calculation of the Right Hon Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the reduction from 2s. 6d. to ls. would only entail a further loss of 48,0001., they should not be deterred from ef fecting that reduction by the apprehended loss to the revenue. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was true they were dealing with a surplus, but if they were to calculate too much on that surplus they would soon lose it altogether. He proposed that the duty should be reduced from 11. to 2s. 6d., and that would surely in itself be a very liberal measure. After a few words from Mr. Henley, Sir H. Wil loughby, and Mr. Mullings, Mr. GOULBURN was disposed to think that as to bonds and mortgages, being for the relief of persons in distress, it was better policy to place the duty too low than too high. .. The Committee divided, when there appeared— For Sir H. Willoughby's amendment ... 164 Against it Majority against the Government ... —29 The announcement of the numbers was received with loud cheering. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, The CHAIR MAN reported progress, and the House hen resumed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said after the decision which the Committee had come to, which involved a most serious loss to the revenue, and which, if adopted throughout the Bill, would render it impossible for hire to go on, he must ask the House to allow him time to consider the course he should take. Although the amendment applied only to bonds, the principle involved mortgages and other things. He should, therefore, take time to consider, and would post pone the further consideration of the Bill till Monday next.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. CARDWELL begged to ask the Right Hon. Gent!enaan the President of the Board of Trade whether the Bills relating to the mercantile marine would be pro ceeded with on Friday ? Mr. LA BOUCHERE said they would not coma on; as he proposed taking the Australian Bill on that night, and be should not be able to fix any evening for their discussion. SECURITIES FOR ADVANCES (IRELAND) BILL. O❑ the order of the day for the secoad reading of this Bill, Mr. J. STUART said the present Bill was introduced for the purpose of facilitating the operation of the Sale of Incumbered Estates Act. He had, in the early part of the evening, suggested that the House ought to have some authentic information on the subject. That infor mation appeared to him indispensably necessary to authorise the House to pass the Bill. He had com plained that his Right Hon. Friend the Solicitor-General far England had discharged duties which did not pro perly belong to him. It was the duty of the Irish law officers to attend there and guide the House by their in formation and advice. Now, they had not had a scintilla of information from the Irish law officers. Nothing could be more absurd in the course of legisla tion than that the party in charge of a measure, when asked for information to guide the House as to whether the measure was proper or not, should declare that he was not in possession of any au thentic information. Whether the Irish Solicitor- General had any information to give them he had yet to learn. He had, in the early part of the even ing, asked three questions. First, whether any sales hal taken place under the Encumbered Estates Bill ? secondly, how many orders had been made by the Com missioners for the sale of encumbered estates, and how many were cow in operation, but under which no sales had been effect:d ? and the third question had reference to the enactments in the proposed Bill by which parties were enabled to purchase estates, paying only half the purchase money, and without any personal responsibi lity for the payment of the other half. He did not think that such a sale had been ever heard of in any country in the world. He wished to know if any proposals had been ma le to purchase estates on these terms ? He paused for information.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the House would consider it but reasonable not to al low such a Bill to proceed to a second reading until that information had been obtained. Having given the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General fir England due notice of those questions, and he having suggested that the returns which would give that information should be moved for in the usual manner, and hiving refused to allow them to be moved for at once, it was, be thought, only reasonable to move the adjournment of the debate uutilthat information was furnished.--(Rear.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for IRELAND and the SO LICITOR GENERAL for ENGLAND rose together, which elicited much cheering and laughter from the Opposi tion benches; tho latter Hon. and Learned Gentleman gave way, and The SOLICITOR -GENERAL br IRELAND said he felt it his bounden duty, notwithstanding that the answer to these questions had been postponed, in conse quence of the personal affront to himself, to ray a few werds.—(l.lear, hear.) With regard to the Solicitor- General for England having the conduct of the Encum bered Estates Bill, he begged to say that the measure was originated bythat Honourable and Learned Gentle man before he had the honour of a seat in that House. (Hear, hear.) The subject had been long under consi deration with those parties with whom the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had advised in Ireland, when he (Mr. Hatchell) had no expectation of a seat in tbat House.—(Hear, bear.) With regard to the present measure, although it had been introduced after be had become a Member, still it was engrafted upon and formed part of the same code. The Hon. and Learned Gentle man opposite must have been aware of that fact. With regard to the questions he had asked, he was surprised that the lion. and Learned Gentleman had not extended to him the usual courtesy cf .giving him notice, to pre ♦ent his being caught by busty answers. Although he (Mr. lia'ehell) had been charged with not having answered the lice, and Learned Gentleman, the notice of these questions had actually been given to his Hon. and Learned Friend the ti,dicitor•.General for England. He put it to the good feeling of that House whether that was just or not?—(Hear, heai.) He could only at pre sent inform the lion. and Learned Gentleman, not having had un opportunity of consulting the Com missioners, that sake had taken place, whether they were five, or seven; or nine, he could not say, but ho could say that the statement might be seen. in any of the Irish or English newspapers. With regard to the orders, they bad been numerous, but be could not state the precise number. The third question was, whether any sales had taken place on the terms of paying half the pur chase-money. Now he must ask the Hou. and Learned Gentleman whether he had ever read the Bill, because if he had he wotißl find that there was no such clause in the Bill. The purchaser was required to pay the whole of the purchase-money into the Bank of Ireland, and all he was then at liberty to do was to borrow half on the security of the title.—(Roars of laughter, and vociferous cheerini; from both sides of the House). He hoped these answers would be satisfactory to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Mr. STUART hoped he would be allowed to explain. He gave notice of the questions he intended to ask of the law officer of the Crown who had charge of the Bill. Finding that that Hon. and Learned Gentleman was not informed on the subject, he thought it but due to the Solicitor-General for Irelan'd to inform him of the questions he had asked. He begged to assure him that he meant him no discourtesy whatever. The 13th clause of the Bill distinctly stated that one-half of the purchase money should no: be deemed a debt due from the purchaser. _ _ - Mr. HUME hoped that the progress of a Bill that was so necessary would not be impeded by the amend ment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite. Mr. M. O'CONNELL said that the Honourable and Learned Member had not satisfied the House that he had read more than the 12th clause of the Bill. The first clause required the whole amount of the purchase money to be paid into the Bank. In consequence of the whole amount of the purchase money being required to be paid under the existing law, property was sold at a great disadvantage. By that morning's papers they were informed of a fine estate being sold for only 61- years' purchase. Sir J. WALSH appealed to the candour and fair dealing of the Home not to force so important a measure on at that advanced perod of the night. It was impos sible at that hour to bestow the adequate attention upon such a subject. Mr. ANSTEY hoped the Government would perse vere in urging forward the measure, which was one of the best Bills brought forward for Ireland during that sessiou. The Hon.. Baronet opposite, who now objected to this measure, which was to enable more purchasers to come forward, and thereby to procure for the owner a higher price for his property in Ireland, had himself complained last session of the existing law, by which he said estates would he sold for an old song. Lord J. RUSSE:GL hoped the House would not occu py any more time by the discussion of this question. We have unfortunately got into a custom latterly, when a Bill was proposed after eleven o'clock, of discussing for a considerable time whether or not the Bill should be introduced. The question was a simple one. If the House meant to deinde that no Bill should be introduced after eleven o'clock_ we might as well adjourn the House at that hour. He did not think that that would be a wise or convenient oourse.—(Hear, hear.) Let us, how ever, not argue the question from eleven to one o'clock. Mr. DISRAELI, as a general rule, quite agreed with the Noble Lord. At the same time - there were circum stances connected wi th the present measure which should induce us to modify that opinion. The Noble Lord must remember that the House had been engaged up to the present time in the constant discussion of a subject of a very different character. And as this was a question of great importance, in respect to which the Noble Lord behind him (Lord Naas) had already notified his intention of moving an amendment to the motion for the second reading, tie trusted that it would not bo onside) ed unreasonable if they objected to proceeding•with it at that late hour. He was most un willing to enter into a series of divisions for the purpose of preventing the progress of any measure ; but he put it to the Noble Lord to consider the position in which the House would be placed if we comment. d the debate now, and if the Noble Lord near him were to make his statement against the passing of the Bill which ha con templated making. We should in such a case be kept here mail four o'clock in the morning. That was a course which he did not think would be fair or conveni ent for the House to take. By stopping discussion now the Government would not succeed in advancing the pro gress a the measure, for that discussion would be taken upon the next stage of the Bill, and in all the form and sustained oharacter as the House would have had on the second reading of it. This was no hostile movement got up to prevent the progress of the measure, but the reasons he had already stated wore, he thought, quite sufficient to justify a postponement of the present question. Mr. HENLEY hoped the House would not fail'to notice what had been stated by the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General for Ireland—namely, that this Bill was part and parcel of the Encumbered Estates Bill of last year. These measures proposed to deal rather vio lently with property, and it was therefore important that the present one, at all events, should be well con sidered before it was passed into a law. They had al ready passed the Judgments Bill this year, which should also be viewed in connexion with those other Bills. By the Judgments Bill they had exempted for the future land in Ireland from antecedent judgment. The Bill would simply enable a man to throw over his passive creditors, and to stand possessed of his estate as if nothing bad happened.—(Hear.) Now could it be ex pected that any respect would be had for the large mass of property in other hands, if puisne creditors were thus treated? They had in the newspapers an instance re corded of a man who, under the operation of this Act, bought back his own estate. Under the operation of the three Bills, what chance would that man have who refused to put his estate through that court, and c h es t his creditors?—(Hear, hear.) If considera tion was to be shown to men who threw 20 or 30 per cent. of their creditors overboard, what would Govern ment do for those men who slid not want anything of the sort, but who wished to act honestly and fairly to all? He did not think Government were acting fairly to what he would call the honest part of the community of Ireland. He was only anxious to call the attention of the House to the statement made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor -General, as to the reason s why he would not un d ertake this Bill. Sir. G.' GREY said one of two things must be done, either the Bill must be discussed on its merits, or the discussion must be postponed. The Hon. Gentleman (Hr. H e nley) had made a speech on the merits of the Bill—he should not follow that course, but he would ask the House not to take the Hon. and Learned Gentle man's interpretation of the Bill. As the discussion on the merits was not desired he was willing to postpone it. He must, however, remark that Government did not, as stated, oppose the wishes of Irish Members, in this matter. fur no Irish Member had yet signified, any opinion. • If it was the wish of Irish Members, or, in deed, of Honourable Members generally, to enter on a discussion of the principles of the Bill now, he should not offer any opposition, tho ug h cer t a i n ly twelve o'clock was not the best time to commence such a discussion. If time were lost it was not the fault of Government, but must be attributed to the course adopted by the Honourable Member for Newark. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said nothing was more un fair than the suggestion of the flon. Member (Mr. Hen ley) as to the intention of the Bill. There was' a class which this Bill would particularly serve, and that was the puisno creditors. There was . a class which it would not serve, and that class was the great capi talists who hoped to go over to Ireland, buy land at less gave wa y to his Hon. F r i en d , b ecause than its value, and sell it so as to make a profit.—(gear.) Lord NAAS he thought the question could he more satisfactorily dis cussed by the proposal made. But he hoped the House would allow him to put off his statement for the present until a more eligible opportunity. Colonel DUNNE was convinced that the Bill, instead of raising the Value of estates in Ireland, would depress it, and he was sure that no money, as was anticipated, would be lent on estates. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL would move that the debate be adjourned till Thursday next, Sir L. O'BRIEN wished an order to be sent to Ireland to suspend the operation of the.previou s B i ll, a , i t h a d been proved that an estate had recently been sold for a year and a half's purchase. The debate was then adjourned till Thursday next, MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND)._ On the motion for the second reading of this Bill, Lord NAAS objected to the proposition. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said his object in moving the second reading of the Bill was that he might have an op portunity of hearing remarks and objections before he made his statement. He had no wish to press on the Bill, but he thought it would be advisable to have the second reading acceded to at the pre:ent time. He would wake a statement with reference to the 'demerits of the present system.—(Great interruption.) He would not go into a long statement respecting the demerits of the existing system in Ireland, as he was satisfied every one acquainted with the existing system condemned it. The present syst e m was uneq ual and expensive, and he pro pored to remedy those defects by a central board and superintend ence . Thi s s ystem was approved o f b y near l y every one who was a friend to Ireland, and every one ad mitted, to do any practical good, it was necessary 'to have a central board. He promised to remedy the evils o f t h e existing syste m . Th e su bject for their consideration was, how they best could husband their resources, and lessen, if it were possible, the amount of rates collected. He believed that there might be a saving of 20,000/. a year effected. The present subscriptions could scarcely bo callei voluntary. Under the poor-rates not more than one• half would be paid by the occupier—the other by the owners of property, who now paid, or who ought to pay, subscriptions for such au object. In 1848, the sum charged upon the poor-rates for temporary fever hospitals was 80,0001. This, however, was not a mere question of economy—it was a question that in volved the first of charities—the attendance and care of the poor. Various objections were made to the mea sure; but they were rather objections to details. He wished fairly to consult the interests of the medical pro fession, of whom he could not speak but in terms of the highest praise. He was anxious that the Bill should be read pro forma, in order that he might introduce several amendments. Sir D. NORREYS had wished to save his Right Hon. Friend the trouble of making a statement. The Bill contained a dangerous principle—that of establishing a medical board separate from the general administration of the poor. Ile thought that all the medical charities should be transferred to the poor.law board. He ob jected to the establishment of a medical board, as it was only pandering to the vanity of the medical profession in Ireland. Why did not the Governmeat exercise the power they had under the poor-law in establishing dis pensaries and fever hospitals? Mr. G. A. lIA MILTON said that there was a gene ral opinion that there should be a change in the ma nagement of medical charities in Ireland. lie suggested that his Right Hon. Friend should withdraw this Bill, which was a very objectionable one, and introduce a new Bill, when they might discuss a Bill upon principle. Lord 3. RUSSELL remarked the principle of the Bill could be discussed afterwards, by having the Bill now read pro forma. By that means they might dis cuss the best manner iu which medical charities might be managed. After — a few words from Mr. F. FRENCH and Lord BERNARD, The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. The Process and Practice (Ireland) Bill, as amended, was considered, and the amendments agreed to. The Indemnity Bill was passed through Committee. EXTRAMURAL INTERMENTS. Sir G. GREY rose to move, in pursuance of notice to that effect, fur leave to bring in a Bill to make better provision for the interment of the dead in and near the metropolis. The Right Hon. Baronet said the House was aware that by an Act passed in the last session of Par liament power was given to the Board of Health, under certain circumstances, to inquire into the state of the burial-grounds in the metropolis and in other large and populous places in the kingdom; and if the result of that inquiry showed that the mode of conducting burials was prejudicial to the public health, the Board was further empowered to prepare a scheme, and submit the same to Parliament, for prohibiting a practice so prejudicial .to the public health, and substituting for it the system of extramural interments. In the exercise of these powers the Board, in the course of the last year, instituted extensive inquiries into the state of the burial-grounds in the metropolis and its neighbour hood, and in certain towns of the United Kingdom; and they had prepared, in pursuance of the further powers given to them, a scheme, which was embodied in the re port that bad now been some weeks upon the table of the House, that scheme being applicable exclusively to the metropolis and the immediate neighbourhood. The board had considered this important subject in two points of view—first with reference to the effects of the existing practice upon the public health, and next its effects upon the solemnity and decency of burials. At that hour of the night (a cleaner to one) he should not think of stating at length the purport or nature of the evidence collected by the Board of Health, and which formed the basis of the recommendations embodied in the scheme contained in the report lying upon the table of the House. That report had attracted much of the public attention, and he believed that moat Hon. Gentle men were aware of the nature and purport of the mass of facts which had been collected by the Board of Health, and upon which their report was founded, as well as the Bill which he had now the honour to ask leave to intro duce. [The Right lion. Gentlemen here read a passage from page 50 of the report, giving a summary of the facts which cam e un d er t h e not i ce o f th e b oar d.] Without entering further into the evidence con tained in the report, ho said he would at once pro ceed to consider the general recommendations of the Board of Health. The substance of those recommenda tions was the 'prohibition of interments within the me tropolitan districts, and, as a consequence, a complete change in the practice of interme n t s . Af ter cons id er i ng various ways in which the practice might be altered, they recommended the appointment of a commission, expressly vested with powers fur carrying out this object, and which powers they then went on to enumerate. The Bill which he had now to propose was based upon this report, although it did not follow the recommenda tions of the board precisely in all their details. On the present occasion it would be sufficient if he contented himself by simply stating the main provisions of the Bill, reserving matters of smaller importance and of mere detail until the Bill had been printed, and placed in the hands of Members. It was proposed in the first instance, in accordance with the recommendation of the board, to form a district to be termed the " Metropolitan Burial District," the parishes to be comprised within which would be enumerated in the schedule of the Bill. They constituted the district which was generally known as the " Registrar- Geaeral's District," with the excep tion of some outlying parishes, which, on account of their locality and other circumstances, it was thought right should not be included. For this district it was proposed that burial-grounds should be provided within or without the district to be placed under the control and management of the parties who were to be entrusted with the execution of the Act. It was proposed further to give power to these parties to take any of the cemeteries which had already been established under Acts of Parliament in the district, upon making compensation to the companies to which they belonged, with a view to shutting up those which, upon inquiry, should appear unfit to be continued as places of interment; bat with regard to others making use of them as burial-grounds to be established under the provisions of this Bill. Every such burial-ground so to be provided would, like all the great cemeteries hi-' therto established, be divided—one portion being conse crated, with a suitable chapel, for the use of members of the Established Church; the other part being left for in terments for persons of other religious denominations.— (Hear, hear.) Power would also be given for setting apart any portion of the burial-ground to the use of any other Christian sect who, upon religious grounds, re quired a separate place of interment. After this, power was to be given to the Queen in Council, upon the report of the persons who would be entrusted with the execu tion of the Act, and after due notice, to order the dis continuance of all interments in the burial-grounds and grave-yards within the district. And this pro hibition might from time to time be extended until ,the system of interments should be altogether discontinued throughout the metropolis, with a saving of the existing rigbts in vaults, but having regard to the necessary precautions for the preservation of the public health. The Bill then proposed that the inhabitants of the parishes whose burial-grounds might be closed under the operation of the Bill should have the same rights of interment in the new grounds as they bai in the present burial-grounds within their parishes; and that power should be given, without the expensive process called the faculty process, to remove bodies from the old places of interment to the new burial-grounds. The parties entrusted with the execution of the Act would also be empowered to pro vide houses of reception for the bodies of deceased per sons—an arrangement which would be of peculiar be nefit to the poor residing in a confined atmosphere and densly-crowded dwellings.—(Hear, hear.) One great practical difficulty in the way of the adoption of a sys tem of extramural interment was felt to be, the placing the poor in the same position with regard to distance as they were at present. In order to remove this difficulty, means might be devised and provided for the convey ance of bodies to the places of interment, and for con ducting funerals in those grounds at specified and mo derate rates.—(Hear, hear.) A large portion of the revenue of the London clergy was at present derived from burial fees; and justice obviously required that compensation should be given both to the clergy and to the official persons who were connected with the exist ,ing burial-grounds for the loss of fees which they would incur by the proposed change of the law. With regard to the clergy, looking at the large proportion of iheir incomes which are composed of those fees, it had been thought necessary to continue the compensation to them beyond the existing incumbencies, as in some parishes the clergy would be left almost without the means of support ; but power Would bo given for re vising, from time to time,, the matter of compensation. With regard to clerks and sextons, and other officers, it was proposed that compensation should be given to the tenure of the respective offices which they held, The Board of Health, in their report, stalled that the re ceipts for the interments in the new burial-grounds would be ample to cover all the expenditure to be in curred under the Act. But as it would be necessary to make provision for the immediate purchase of burial grounds, and for other expenditure, before any large amount was received in the shape of fees, power would be given to borrow money on the future payments under the Act, and also upon the security of a rate which they were to be authorised to levy, and which was not to ex ceed the annual amount of Id. in the pound, in the event of the fees and payments being insufficient for the ex penditure. With respect to the parties to be entrusted with the execution of the Act, the Board of Health had recommended that a commission should be specially constituted for that purpose. There were, however, ob vious objections to the creation of a new commission, unless some indispensable necessity could be shown for it; and it was thought by her Majesty's Government that the members of the Board of Health were fully compe tent to the task; and upon the whole, in the first in stance, the very best parties for effecting the recommen dations which they themselves had made. To a gnat extent, also, the existing staff of that board might be - made available for the new Act. It was p ropose d t h at, i ns tead of constituting a new board, one paid member should be added to the present board ; an d i t was t h oug h t that with this addition, and with the help of such sub ordinate officers as might be requisite, that board would Le competent to establish a system of extramural inter ments throughout the metropolis.—(Hear, hear.) The House was aware that the Board of Health had only a temporary existence, the period for its duration not being extended beyond August, 1953; and it might therefore be necessary eventually to continue the opera tion of the Bill by some other agency. This circum stance, however, afford( d a security that before the powers of the Board of Health expired the attention of Par liament must be called to the working of this measure, and an opportunity would be afforded for correcting any defects which experience might have discovered in its operation. Before he sat down he wished to express the sense which he entertained of the ability and efficiency with which the Board of Health bad discharged the duties imposed upon them, and of the value of that great mass of information which they bad collected and em bodied in their report. The thanks of the public were especially due to the Noble Member for Bath (Lord Ashley), who, as an unpaid member of that board, had most assiduously and usefully devoted many months of his valuable time to carry out the objects of the board, and to obtain information on the subject to which this Bill referre I. He (Sir G. Grey) would wily express his cordial concurrence in the hope expressed in the con cluding paragraph of the report of the Board of Health, that their inquiries and recommendations might prove eminently conducive to the public health, by leading at no very distant time to the discontinuance of the great evil of intramural interments. Mr. LACY asked whether the sum of 112,0002 a year would be required for keeping up the establishment created by the Bill, and what would be the probable amount of rate necessary to be levied? Sir G. GREY said those were matters of detail that could .be more.conveniently discussed when the Bill was before the House. The amount of the necessary ex penses could only b: estimated ; but the penny rate was proposed Merely as a collateral security, the Board of Health aaticipating that the lees and payments received for burials would cover all the expenses. Lord ASHLEY observed that it was confidently hoped that there would be no necessity whatever fir the rate, and 'it was merely proposed as a matter of secu rity, and to enable the Commission to raise the neces sary funds. Sir B. 'HALL expressed his obligation to the Right Hon. Home Secretary for having brought forward this question, and hoped the Bill would very specdily pass into law. He wished to ask whether the commissioners appointed to carry out the measure would he required to lay their proceedings and accounts before the House? Sir G. GREY replied that the Bill provided that ab stracts of their proceedings and accounts should be an nually laid before Parliament. Mr. WYLD hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would take measures for abolishing the post-horse duty charged upon horses engaged in conveyihg hearses. Leave was then given to introduce the Bill, which was brought in and read a first time. • The House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY DI VISIONS. (From the Yates and Proceedings of the House of Common's MONDAY, ♦PRIL 15. STAMP DUTIES BILL. (IN THE COMMITTEE.) Schedule B (Bond in England or Ireland and personal bond in Scotland given as a security for the payment of any definite and certain sum of money not exceaing 504) : Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Duty be two shillings and sixpence :"—Afterwards, Motion made, and Question put, " That the Duty be one shilling." The Committee divided: MAJORITY-AYES, 164. Aglionby, H. A. Egerton,:Sir P. Meagher, Thomas Arbuthnott, Hugh Ellis, John Mahon, Lord Archdall, Captain Emlyn, Viscount Mandeville.:Viscount Arkwright, U. Estcourt, J. B. B. Manners, Lord J. Baillie,ll. J. Fagan, William March, Earl of Bankes, George Ferrer, James Masterman, J. Baring, H. B. Filmer, Sir E. Meux, Sir Henry Barrington, Vls. Floyer, John Mitchell, T. A. Bass, Thomas Forbes, William Moody, C. A. Beckett, W. Forester, G. C. Mundy, William Bentinck, Lord H. Forster, Mathew Naas, Lord Beresford, William Fox, S. L. Neeld, John Bernard, Viscount Galway, Viscount Newry, Viscount Best, John Goddard, A. L. Norreys, Sir D. Blackstone, W. S. Gooch, E. S. O'Brien, Sir Lucius Blair, Stephen Gordon, Admiral Ossulton, Lord Blandford, Marquis Gore, IV. R. 0. Packe, C. W. Blewitt, Reginald Goulburn, Henry Pakington, Sir J. Boldero, H. G. Granby, Marquis of Palmer, Roundell Booth, Sir B.G. Greenell, Gilbert Plowden, W. H. Bowles, Admiral Greene, John • Plumptre, J. P. Bramston, T. IV. Greene, Thomas Rendlesham,',Lord Bremridge, Richard Guernsey, Lord Renton, John C. Broadley, H. Gwyn, Rowel Roebuck, J. A. Brooke, Lord Hall, Sir Benjamin Rushout, Captain Brown, W. Hamilton, G.f.A. Sadleir, John Bruce, C. L. C. Harris, Captain . Salwey, Colonel Buck, Lewis IV. Harris, Richard Sandars, George Buller, Sir J. Y. Hayes,/Sir E. Seymer, Henry Ker Burroughes, H. N. Heald, James Smith, John B. Carew, W. P. Heneage, G. H. W. Smyth, J. G. Castlereagh, Vis. Henley, J. W. Smythe, George Chandos, Marquis Henry, Alexander Sotheron, T. H. S. Chaplin, W. J. Herbert, H. A. Spooner, Richard Christopher, R. Hervey, Lord A. Stafford, Augustus Clerk Sir G. Heyworth, Lawrence Stanley, E. H. Clifford, H. M. Ifildyard, R. C. Stephenson, Robert Clive, R. 11. Hodgson, W. N. Stuart, Lord. D. Clive, Henry B. ' Hotham, Lord Stuart, H. Cobden, R. Howard, P. H. Thompson, Alderman Cocks, T. S. Hudson, G. Tollemache, John Cole, H. A. Hume, Joseph Turner, G. J. Colvile, C. IL Johnstone, Sir J. Verner, Sir IV. Conolly, Thomas Jolliffe, Sir W. G. Verney, Sir:ll. Devereux, J. I'. Jones, Captain Vyse, H. D'Eyncourt, C. T. Ker,:Richard Waddington, H. S. Disraeli, B. Kershaw, James Walmsiey, Sir J. Pod, J. W. • Lacy, H. C. Walpole, S. H. Duckworth,' Sir J. Legh, G. C. WalBl4.Sir J. B. Duke, Sir James Lennox, Lord HG. Walter, John Duncan, George Lindsay, Colonel Williams, John Duncombe, 0. Locke, Joseph Yorke, E. T. Duncuft, John Lockhart, W. Dunne, Colonel Lushington, Charles TELLIES. East, Sir J. Mackenzie, W. F. Willoughby, Sir H. Edwards, Henry M'Neill; Duncan Hollings, J. R. MINORITY-NOES. 125. Adair, R. A. Grenfell, Charles W. Palmerston, Viscount Anstey, Thomas C. Grey, Sir George , Parker, John Ashley, Lord Grosvenor, Lord R. Peel, Frederick Bagsha w, John Grosvenor, Earl Perfect, It. Bahses, M. T. Hatuner,'Sir Joint 'Pilkington, James Baring, Sir' 'F. T. Ilardcastle, J. A. Power, Dr. Barnard, E. G. Hastie,2Alexander Power, Nicholas Bellew, R. M. Basile, Archibald Rawdon, Colonel Berkeley, C. L. G. Hatchell, John Rich, Henry Blackall, S. W. Hawes, B. Romilly, Colonel Blake, Martin J. Ilayter, W. G. Romily, Sir John Bouverie, E. P. Headlam, Thomas Russell, Lord John Boyle, Colonel •Heathcoat, John Russell, Edward S. Brockman, E. D. Heneage, Edward Rutherfurd, A. Brotherton, J. Heywood, James Scrope, G. P. Browne, R. D. Hobhouse, Sir John Seymour, Lord Buxton, Sir E. Tlobhouse, T. B. Shell, it. L. Carter, John B. Hodges, T. L. Shelburne, Earl of Cavendish, 0. C. Hollond, Robert Simeon, John Cavendish, G. 11. Howard, C. W. Smith, J. A. Cavendish, W. G. Howard, Sir It. Somers, J. P. Childers, J. W. Butt, William Somerville, Sir W. Clay, James Jervis, Sir John Spearman, H. J. cies-smuts, Charles Keppel, G. T. Talbot, J. 11. Colebrooke, Sir T. . King, P. J. Tancred, H. W. Coke, E. K. ' Labouchere, Henry Thompson, Colonel Cowper, W.' F. Langston, J. 11. Thornely, Thomas Craig, Sir W. G. Lascelles, W. S. Towneley, John Dalrymple, Captain Lewis, George C. Townshend, Captain Davie, Sir. H. Littleton, E. It. Trelawny, J. S. Dawson, 'l'. V. ' Loveden, I'ryse Tufuell, Harry Duff, James Mackinnon, W. Vivian, J. 11, Dundas, Admiral M'Cullagh, W. T. Wall, C. B. Dundee, Sir David M`Gregor, John Watkins, Colonel Ebringtou, Lord Matheson, Colonel Wawn, J. T. Ellice, Edward Manic, Fox Willcox, Brodie Elliot, J. E. Milner, W. M. Wilson, James Evans, William Monsell, William Wilson, Matthew Fergus, John Morgan, H. K. Wood, Sir Charles Ferguson, Col. Morris, David Wood, W. P. Ferguson, Sir R. Mowatt, Francis Wrightson, W. B. Fitzpatrick, J. W. Mulgrave, Earl Wyld, )James Fordyce, A. D. O'Connell, M. J. Wyvill, Marmaduke Fortescue, J. W. Paget, Lord A. TELLINI. Freestun, Colonel Paget, Lord C. Hill, Lord Marcus Grace, 0. D. Paget, Lordpeorge Howard, Lord E. POST-OFFICE SUNDAY DUTIES. A return has just been issued, giving a history of the measures recently adopted for the reduction of Sunday labour in the Post-office, and showing their results. It appears that the movement on the question originated at Bath, where, in consequence of a me morial which had been presented to the Government, the Sunday money-order business was abolished on the 6th of February, 1848—a step, however, which was followed by a petition, signed by 4,752 persons, against any further curtailment' of accommodation. Before the lapse of a year the experiment which had been successful at Bath was carried out generally, and about October, 1848, inquiries were set on foot to ascertain the practicability of assimilating the Sunday deliveries of letters in England to those in Scotland. Fears were entertained that the measure would be met by strong complaints, but it was thought that if ' it were accompanied by an arrangement for transmit ting the " forward" letters through London on the Sunday the advantage thus given on the one side would counterbalance the restriction on the other. The plan in this shape was accordingly submitted in February, 1849, sanctioned by Parliament in August, and carried out on the 28th October last. The addi tional force employed in London on Sundays in con sequence of this arrangement turns out, notwith standing the false reports circulated in every . direction at the time, never to have exceeded the original esti mate of 25 persons, who were entirely volunteers, and it now appears that on the 20th January , owing to the satisfactory working of the system and the facilities it gave for simplifying other arrangements, this force was not only discarded a l t o g ethe r , but it was found that the labour of the ordinary force of 27 persons was considerably lig htened, and that it will even be possible, by some plans now pending, to re duce that number to 15 or 16. Within the last two years other measures of Sunday relief have been diligently prosecuted, the mo s t i mportant of th es e being the establishment of the late delivery on Saturday nights at a distance of 6 miles round London, whereby, with increased con venience to the public, 191 men have been wholly relieved from Sunday duty ; th e di m i nut i on o f busi ness at the provincial offices by the discontinuance of a large number of Sunday mails; and the disuse of money pre -payments on Sundays for all inland letters, so that the offices are no w genera lly c l ose d a t 10 i n the morning. On th e w h o l e, it seems t h at t h e resu l t of the various alterations patiently carried out by the Post-office auth or i t i es i n t h e m id st o f t h e m i staken hostility dire c t e d aga i ns t t h em , an d w i t h out incon venience to the public, has been, first, to withdraw the money-order business on the Sunday from 436 provincial post-offices in England and Wales and 234 offices in Ireland and Scotland ; and secondly, as re gards the delivery of letters, to give relief to more than 6,000 persons, and, on the average, more than five and a half hours each.— Times. Mr. FEBRAND.—The Leeds lntelligencer of Satur day says :—" The proposition which Mr. Ferrand made to the farmers of the Pontefract polling district, that they should form a 'Farmers' Wool League,' is causing great ex citeinent among the farmers of Yorkshire. A requisition from the farmers, inviting him to meet them in Doncaster on the 20th, is in course of signature at that polling district. Meetings are being arranged for the Beverley polling dis trict on the 27th; for the Melton polling district on the 4th of hay; and it is expected that meetings will take place in quick succession at Richmond, Snaith, Selby, Wetberby, Ripon, Knaresborough, Thirsk, and other agricultural towns in this extensive county." [ADVERTISEMENT.]—THE EARL or ALDBOROUGB AND HOLLOWAY'S PILLS.—An astounding cure by this miraculous medicine, aster every other means had failed. See extract from hli Lordship's letter, dated " Villa Messina, Leghorn, Feb. 21, 1845. Professor Holloway—Sir I beg, to acquaint you that your pill s have ef fected a cure of a disorder In my liver and stomach whi ch all the floe: eminent of the faculty, at h ome and all over the con tinent, hadnot been able to effect; nay, not ever the waters of Carl s b ad o r m ri en bad. (Signed) " ALD7IOIIOUOn. " These w on d erful pills wilt cure any disease of t he liver or stomach. , —Sold (ai m , H - o oway s Ointment) at Professor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, and by all medicine vendors throughout the chilies, world. ' : i COURT CIRCULAR. The Queen and Prince Albert took a drive yes terday in an open carriage and four. The Equerries in Waiting, Lord Charles Fitzroy and Lieut.-Colonel F. H. Seymour, attended on horseback. La Comtesse Rossi attended at Buckingham Palace, for the purpose of singing to the Queen yesterday afternoon. Her Majesty and Prince Albert were accompanied by some of the junior branches of the Royal Family; and their Royal Highnesses the Duchess of Kent, the Duchess of Gloucester, and the Duchess of Cambridge, were also present. Mons. Eckhard presided at the pianoforte. His Royal Highness Prince Albert rode out on horseback yesterday morning, attended by Lieut.- Colonel F. H. Seymour. Their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales, Prince Alfred, the Princess Royal, the Princess Alice, the Princess Helena, and the Princess Louise, took their accustomed exercise yesterday in the gardens of 13uckingh am Palace. Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent, at tended by Lady Anna Maria Dawson and Baroness de Speth, dined with her Majesty at Buckingham Palace last evening. A deputation from the G rea t N ort h ern R a il way Company, consisting of Mr. Denison, Mr. Packe, Mr. Cubitt, Mr. Baxter, and Mr. Coates, had an interview with the Commissioners of Railways yes terday, at their office in the Board of Trade. Earl Waldegrave had an interview with Lord John Russell yesterday. Mr. Liddell had also an interview with his Lordship yesterday, at his official residence in Downing-street. The Marquis of Lansdowne (Lord President of the Council) is recovering from an attack of gout. The Earl of Zetland had an interview with the Right Hon. H. Labouchere yesterday, at the office of the Board of Trade. Lord Monteagle had an interview with the Chan cellor of the Exchequer yesterday. Mr. John Wood, Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, had also an interview with the Right Hon. Baronet yesterday, at his official residence in Downing•street. A deputation from the Yorkshire and Lancashire Railway Company, consisting of Mr. Heald, M.P., Mr. Grenfell, M.P., Mr. Bright, M.P., Mr. Henry, M.P,, Mr. Holdsworth, Mr. Gile, Mr. Hawkshaw, and Mr. Derbyshire, had an interview y es t er d a y w ith the Commissioners Of Railways. Dispatches were sent off yesterday evening from the Colonial-office for the Governor of the Cape of Good Hope. THE ARCTIC EXPEDITION. _- - - ABERDEEN, SATURDAY.—The Lady - Franklin, Captain Penny, and the Sophia, Captain Stewart, sailed from this port to-day for the Arctic regions, in search of Sir John Franklin. The two vessels were hauled out of the docks at two o'clock, and left the harbour amid the cheers of some thousands of spec tators. The Lady Franklin is a first-olass clipper brig, built at Aberdeen ; and the Sophia is equally strong, though less sharp in her model, and was built at Dundee. The expedition is under the command of Captain Penny, who volunteered his services, and in recommending him to the Admiralty, Sir Francis Beaufort says— " The daring but prudent conduct that Mr. Penny is said to have evinced on many occasions, together with the large experience that he must have gained during a whole life among the ice, as well as the ambition he ex presses to distinguish himself is this noble enterprise, on which all eyes are turned, lead me to think that it would be wise to let loose his energy, and to give him the op portunity for which he begs. I may add that I believe this would sensibly gratify Lady Franklin." Captain Penny has been to the Arctic regions almost every year for the last 20 years. He went to Davis' Straits first as an app ren ti ce seaman , an d h a d the experience of his father, who had then been long known as a captain of one or other of the Aberdeen whalers, and soon after his apprenticeship was com pleted he became first mate, and then a master him self. When commanding one of the Aberdeen whalers in 1839 he gathered some information from an Esquimau; which led him to believe that there was an unexplored region in the Straits, abounding with whales; and having got the young native to come to Scotland, he managed to educate him so as to be able to line out a chart of the unknown bay, and to give such an account of its geographical bearings as enabled him next season to explore it, and to open up a new source of supply when whales failed in the or dinary fishing-ground. In this-way, and in various other ways, Capt. Penny gained an acquaintance with almost every inlet and sound of Davis' Straits ; and it is well known that he has been able to add consider ably to our stock of knowledge of the icy regions of the north. lie has a most perfect conviction that Sir John Franklin is yet alive, and is to pursue his search in the first instance in Admiral Jones' Sound and the Wellington Channel. The Lady Franklin and Sophia have 25 men each, including officers, and are provisioned for three years. They have each a full supply of coals, but are to re ceive additional coals from the Pacific, of this port, which vessel took out a large quantity when she sailed the other day for Davis' Straits. All the appoint ments of the vessels are of the most simple and prac tical description. They have boats similar to those of the ordinary whaler; ice anchors, ice saws, warp ing apparatus, and every sort of machinery necessary to enable them to make way through the ice. There is also a full and complete assortment of geographical and astronomical apparatus, and, what is of no small value in this important expedition, a large amount of discretionary power conferred on the commander. NAVAL INTELLIGENCE. PORTSMOUTH, MONDAY. —The Bulldog steam-sloop, Commander A. C. Key, hauled under the sheers to be paid off to-day. She was dismasted, and will be put out of commission to-morrow. The Griffon 3, Lieutenant Thurburn, lately from Rio, will be paid off hero to-morrow, and refitted forth with ai an exercise and instruction brig for the seamen, apprentices about to be entered at the port of Cork. The Yorktown, American line-of-packet ship, arrived at Spithead last evening. Tho Sprightly steam-vessel, Acting-Master Allen commanding, returned from Plymouth yesterday. The Royal Yacht Victoria and Albert is receiving her new boilers in the Steam-basin. The Crocodile, old troopship, for tome time past the depot or flag-ship of the Commander-in-Chief on the Irish station, is ordered to this port to be paid off, being warn out. We hope a respectable ship will be sent to carry the flag of Rear-Admiral Dixon, for it is neither creditable to the service nor to the country that such a wretched old meal-tub as the Crocodile should be flag ship at a port where some of the finest vessels in the world are constantly putting in. Wind S.S.W., strong, and cloudy weather. PLYMOUTH. APRIL 13.—The Hon. It. Dundas, Storekeeper-General of the Navy, arrived on Wednes day at Moorahead's Royal Hotel, Devonport. On Thurs day 1 e inspected the various stores in the yard connected with his depaituaent, and on Friday examined the new system of payments recently adopted. Her Majesty's steam-vessel Sprightly arrived from Portsmouth to• day with marine artillery for the Archer steam-vessel. The Sharpshooter steam-vessel, which put back with damage yesterday, was towed up the harbour to-day .by the Sprightly, to coal and have defects made good. The Lily brig sailed with the mails for the coast of Africa on Wednesday. The Petrel packet will be taken out of dock on Monday. The Alert brig will be paid off on Tuesday. Wind N.W.; strong breeze. APPOINTMENTS. WooLWICH, APRIL 15.—Second Master Graham H. Hills (1848), to the Sparrow, 6, surveying-vessel on the south-east coast of Ireland. Midshipmen Charles A. It. Pocock and Henry L. Holder, to the Victory, 101, flag-ship at Portsmouth. Master's Assistant William Hewlett, to the Fisgard flag-ship at Woolwich. The Pioneer screw steam-vessel, Lieutenant• Co mmander Sherard Osborn, bad her steam up to-day, and , her screw-propeller having been previously shipped, t" water was let into the :docks to try the working of the engines, and they appeared to work well. RAILWAY SHARE MARKETS. BRISTOL, Armn 15. STOCK EXCHANGE.-0111 share market was better to-day, and prices are considerably firmer. The transactions 49-Dit to, Bristol and Exeter, 35 dis.-Great Westerni 6%-Leeds , New Quarters, 171. Shares, 9 dis.-Midland, 33 4 -Taff Vale, N ew, %p. LIVERPOOL, Arum 15. STOCK EXCHANGE. -The transactions 1, 11;x-Lancaster wereßrad dford, a Pr es tos,.d flo3rasds. follow :-Lancashire and Yorkshi re, 9d. C. dis.-Ditto, Preference , . Quarters, 13-East Lancashire , P.-Midland, 90-London and North-Western , s. 3d. C. dis.-Ditto, Quarters (C) , 32- Ditto, Halves, 28 dis.-South-Eastern and Dover, 13- Ditto (No. 4). Registered, 4%-h -Sheffield, R. B. and G. N. Div., 1 dis.-York, N ewc astle, and Berwick (G. N. E.' Pur. , lIESTI4 igANU R, APRIL 15. chase), 6 per cent. till 1850. dis. STOCK EXCHANGE. -The share market is still depressed. and little business has been done to-day. The transactions were-Birkenhead. Lancashire, and Cheshire Junction, 19 dis.-East Lancashire, 0, 4-Ditto, Quarters, 1 9-16-Lan cashire and Yorkshire (West Ridi ng Union), 9-lAdis.-Ditto. Preference, 6 per cent., 11 %-London and North-Western, jOO -Ditto, Manchester and Birmingham, Quarters (C), 5.16 c. p.-Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire, 12 1 4 , n. -Ditto, Preference, 6 11- IG-Ditto, Sheffield and Lincoln shire, 2 15-16-North Staffordshire, 10% dis.-South-Eastern and Dover, Thirds (No. 4), 4%-North Union (A), 164%. YORK, Amur- 13. Srocx EXCHANGE.-The transactions to-day were all fa- low :-York, Newcastle, and Berwick, 1134-Great Northerth S V-York and North Midland, Preference, 61. 6s. 3d.-Leedo and Bradford, 93-North British, Preference (guaranteed 6 per cent. for live years, and 5 per cent. in perpetuity), 4%. • ESCAPE OF PRISONERS. — Before the court closed at Cockermouth, on Tuesday, one of the bailiffs, apparently in a state of great alarm, informed the chairman that two prisoners, Walker and Smith, had made their escape from the lock-up, and were nowhere to be found. It appeared that they had cleverly suc:eeded in locking up the keeper in tllo cell destined for themselves, and then fled. They had then • sought shelter in a wood belonging to General Wyndham, where the boy Smith was discovered about two hours after wards, having lamed his knee so as to prevent further flight. Walker still remains at large, having hitherto eluded the search of the officers in quest of him.—Carlislc Journal. I il