The Sun. — London, England, 1845-05-20 00:00:00

Ihe conceived it might easily be urged in consonance with just reason and equity. The seventh article of the union provided for the amalgamation of the two coun tries by religious concessions and charitable endowments. The question, therefore, became narrowed to the one, whether that amalgamation should be effected under the principles agreed on. Whether they would make a grant to which they were solemnly pledged, and to go farther—to make a grant commensurate with the re iiiiirernents of an increasing population. And why should they not ? They had given the Presbyterians en endowment for their church, they had given to the Dis senters a regitem &mum, they hid joined the Prussian Church on the faith of a convention, and were they to refuse to Ireland, the poorest, the most needy of them all, that measure of justice and assistance which they had unhesitatingly accorded to others? They owed a debt of justice to Ireland, not only upon con tracts of political—not upon grounds of expediency or conciliation, or past neglect, but upon the positive merits and services of Ireland. The Irish had claims upon England in regard for services such as no other people had surpassed, services in war, whether rendered by her army or her navy, services which seconding those of England had secured her present glory and the safety of her monarchy ; and for such services she claimed and merited the common justice of England ; and while ad verting with pride and admiration to the services of Ire land, he would express his disbelief of the libel put for ward by the pretended friends of that country, that if an opportunity occurred, they would not, as heretofore, stand forth the champions of the British Crown. That libel he scouted with disgust ; but be it remembered, it was a libel not put forth by any Saxon, and he would leave it to its publisher to answer fur it to the Irish peo ple.—(Cheers.) Protestantism was in England con nected with ennobling associations ; but how had the Catholics of Ireland known it ? They had known it only as the religion of those who imposed persecution and injustice upon them, who framed a treaty only to violate and abjure it—who enacted a penal code to shackle and oppress them. Such, till lately, the Protestant Church had been recognised in Ire land ; happily a brighter period had arisen—a gene ration had sprung up evincing a spirit of kindliness, instead of that bitter animosity which had previously to emancipation characterised and disgraced the country. It was most important that the Irish Roman Catholics should not misapprehend the present feeling of Eng land towards them, nor mistake the ripple that dis turbed the river, for the tide which characterised the ocean ; and he would impress upon them the truth, that no longer English tyranny but Irish agitation was the barrier to improvement in that country.—(Cheers.) He was generally disinclined to impress his opinions on the House, and his difficulties were now increased by those which surrounded the question.—(Hear, hear.) He had, however, thought it his duty, fear lessly to assert his present conviction, and never did he urge an opinion or give a vote more in consonance with his sense of duty towards his consti tuents, his country, and with the dictates of his con science. He gave that vote in favour of a measure which he regarded as the precursor of civil and religious liberty in a more extended and truthful sense. In the hope and confident belief that it was calculated to silence complaint and allay division, and if the course, of which it appeared the earnest, were carried out in all its ful• ness and perfection, he anticipated confidently the time when, without the acerbities of past injustice or the pangs of too just remorse, the two countries would with sincerity be addressed as " The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."—(Loud cheering ) Captain MANGLES felt that in the present case all the facts and arguments were in favour of this measure.—(Hear.) It was said that they ought to govern Ireland upon Protestant principles. He repudiated such a doctrine, although he was as zealous a Protestant as lived. •He thought they ought not to deprive Ireland of those associations and that religion which their an cestors had bequeathed to them. He believed that the Protestant Irish Church, instead of strengthening itself by grasping at everything, was weakening its structure in the greatest degree. For three hundred years the Protestant Church in Ireland had had in its hands the whole endowments of that Church, and yet what was it now? Far less influential than it was three hundred years ago. It was, in fact, a Church supported by an army of 20,000 men, in order that the ministers of it might enjoy their benefices. He believed the Church of Ireland was the principal grievance of the Irish people, and was one of the great causes of the crimes that were committed in that country. He did not see how the Dissenters could object to the grant, be cause they ought to remember their ancestors partici pated in the spoliation of the people of Ireland. They ought to be content, as he was, to put their hands into their pockets, in order to afford but a poor restitution for the injuries that had been done to the people of Ireland. He had heard Honourable Gentlemen speaking with astonishment of the ingratitude of the people of Ireland. What, he would ask, was the course pursued by this country towards them but that of merely mitigating injustice. And were the people of Ireland to be grateful for that ? It was in vain to expect that the Irish people would be grateful unless they were accorded a full and entire measure of justice--dealing it out by instalments would never do. He had heard with regret comparisons drawn between the religion of their Roman Catholic brethren and idolators. He had heard that religion likened to Ma hometanism, Hindooism, and other systems of idolatrous worship. But, much as he deprecated such comparisons, he would say, had the Government of this country taken in former times the endowments of the 'Mahometans or Flindoos of India, and applied them to the support of the Christian Church, he should feel justified in acting to wards them in the same way as he would act towards the people of Ireland. If they had power to restore to the people of Ireland their endowments, then he should cer tainly support it, but as they had not that power, he would join with the Government in supporting the grant to meynooth as an instalment of justice to the people of Ireland. the last session of the Irish Parliament, a measure had b introdutal to make a grant of something less than ; it was passed through' the Commons, but was eventually thrown out in the Lords. It was a no torious fact that thirty of the students of •the Maytiooth institution joined the rebellion in '9B. A visitation of Trinity College was made in the same Year, and it was ascertained that 17 of the students were found to be implicated. Thus there were 17 students from Trinity, whilst the students at Maynooth were re duced to 69. It was true that this was given on the authority of a partisan, and that it appeared in a tract written for the purpose of facilitating the union, but it sufficiently showed how grievously the principle which W,a s adopt e d at t h e esta b lishment of Maynooth had b een departed from, and how different was this from the en dowment which had no w b een so muc h s p o k en or during the debate on this question. The es tablishment of Dunboyne was altogether on a different footing. Much, too, had been said of restitution during this debate; but lie would ask to whom was this restitu !ion to be made? Was it to be made to the monastic institutions from whom the property was said to have b een taken? In Spain, during the time the Inquisition ilas in full power, such a principle might be advocated. k u t in France and every other country where the 9 M, an Cath o li c re li g i on was exerc i se d w i t h mo d erat i on , be a principl e wou ld never be allowed; and he should eit" astonished if the enlightened monarch now seated on e French throne should ever make such a declaration. 'Then, some years ago, the project wes mowed for ad ilittit.t!ng members of the Romaa Catholic religion to the % Plat Parliament., a friend of his, whose opinion was triwasthentitled to much weight, had pointed to Belgium; in a publication out of doors and on the benches LI that House had said that he had been present in do bates of that august assembly, wherein he had seen the seate d of Catholic Belgium and of Protestant Holland Irted together ins a deliberation under a Protestant s i ° „ 4 ,,, a , r eh, where the interests of - both parties were til - e - v 7 i lY considered. This observation, which ho be ‘es' bad great influence at the time, was made in la nd - Prang of 18 9 9, and in the autumn' of 1830, 1101- th__,Te M o yl ieg li e elgium were separated.—(Hear, hear.) When ' t en s ? ecl,as of Maynooth was first founded it was in ageneral academy, and not as was represented l e l 5 IY monastic institution. And if the plea were to e i„t lowed that it was to be conducted on the same prin is Plea as oth d • • stitutions of the Roman Catho de Church the critic in veeivte , same objection still held. For if the Uni ity or be:, .Oxford had been conducted on these exclu e4ages where, he would ask, would Wickliff have et ee - ; and if the German Universities had been con tea with similar customs, where would Luther have ke o v"? But such was not the case, for it was well m e w . n that l aymen as well as those intended for the iiigj i t t i V were admitted to those institutions. The I .lnest i • .e a• Baronet hail stated that this came as no new Intetil/nsfor he h a d i n th e m iddl e( flast session stated his il otth, ° a il to bring in some measure to improve May that b ut this was no improvement where everything , e , i aitte t r i gaod about the grant of previous year s w as St ios ' il the pres en t Bill—wh e n a ll it s connex i on w i t h we hi v` 7 , Was done away with, or when at least the only tha t w e ° Prevented entire separation was the money lattr one a a, to be paid. How was it that the Right Hon. Opp oie ? during his nine year.' seat on the ori4in •,,l o +. benches had not proposed to double the nissr7p•iint? There was little doubt but that the Mi ivish; 7 7 11 in power would have readily acceded to his that "e had had the power himself of doing that in the h i .„ °ll se at any mo nent. It had been truly said that Bothleaded of this question was not perceived, for it ex its the whole endowment of the Catholic Church. kazi reeigit hexceeded the height of their cathedral spires, lihe ee a ed to the throne itself. If this grant was made lee ees ald tell that any thing should- prevent a Catholic gotten` to to the throne? This was no idle or fantastic "hose •-•;(Rear, hear)—for the Member for Newark, for st„Pdgment the highest respect was entertained, •qs w' e d that which amounted to the same opinion. Wel %i d aid what was so beautifully told in the beau saWQr(lB hthe t . l - _p a __ 0 e poet, after s sing passage where Thousands had sunk on the ground overpower'd, , th er e weary to rest, and the wounded to die, f `tti w ere goes on to show that when the Irish and Eng •ertaes'e !Sing indiscriminately on the battle field, the INSgtit Yo said to the latter, " Change Kings, and we will .11 11 o ver azain." So he would say to the Right trn o,earronet, di;sol re the Parliament and they would fight * and check mate his kings with their pawns. 1 0 ou a . e th e , remind the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary i tts 11 ° , ne flonsDepartment of his own conduct during his at 61 6U PPOrt of the R e f orm Bill ; an d as h e knew th e W as useless to beseech him to listen to the voice might e hr a trY, he wo u ld defy him to dissolve. They o tt4 , , b at th e section with whom he acted in that ta Y ut he (Mr Bankes) well knew that they h a d th e 1 • 1a th with th e the Billm,be an read that dayd with that i si x mpressionmonths he should , i at ) t i Taide sav e_ GEACHY said that, after the most earnest i jtesi ta Cni of the measure, h e h a d come to the t ags g determinati on o f su pp or ti ng th e third 4 71 1%e e would do so because this was a measure es eta most distorted vision could not torture into an JagtO tree. to Ireland. It was truly a measure eit -ce • The G ernment, it was true, oV • faaer difficulties, and the principal of them Nil th e repugnancy of certain persons as s • ik sa te ligious Measure. As a Protestant, however, s,,Si7 e taner of the Constitution, he could find no cristi an l he should d e ny e q ua l j us ti ce t o hi s f e ll ow the se B of the R aman C at h ol i c f a i t h ; an d , actuated ..E.itiport _p r inciples, h e f e l t i mperat i ve l y called upon to 7t l the measure. True, the Church of England 4 ind "!aurch of Rome was in error, but he found no of • Au, to'dieU3tiee that would empower the Church of betw ith. . rbi t i pr the benefits of education to the sister a ever",b, ese ch ar no question of theological opinion sh ow million - ',", s es- It was a question of justice to land wentnt that, '"eir countrymen. Experience had peopl e had, A nd stir I • been alto as far as the Church . of Eng eY It w as ;Other unprovided with instruction; lag s should bow time that the real church of that be es e a t eduee t i oa e employed in disseminating the bless llse;wnded, „„'",,•,_ It was only by this that truth could °Y this mode only could the benefit of s ever e s ai be i ch went of this in Ireland. He thought the seat th an well 4.'18 country had a right to assist one ,pre ne m ai , 8 . another, and surely it was self-evident 010 th em ericat anoubtd superiority of the Irish Catholics ha d • tw ear ,„ „ e right to that assistance. He begothe J Ine House by enlarging on these facts, 4), th 3 " the spirit in which much of the oppo- Lir,: the hi e , mess spirit had been carried on he should tas Pointing isa s i on auc es that, out to its opponents some • H e wOught to modify their zeal on that solzabeth, wow not refer them to the cruel statutes nisd e Zcati om Ind the subsequent Acts by which ltti tati e „ s eo b o dtotnan Catholic children were for the p aros , .b O L point out particularly to their th en e,nal Acts of .Anne ; but he had merely : il :14 ; 1M h ad k_oecause, despite of the numerous pe 1, e e `glito st as",en presented to that House, he believed thi: ilt qa•s a u ; l e l e f.hat a new feeling had sprung up in s , f B .•s so trant ass. Ing of desire to do justice to Ireland. .yarrow2l '',l . lab ei l',7-`,,ed at all, he conceived it should be oq y, grog tL Los he could not conceive any greater I t Wa hat uan these annual and mischievous dis dt „Sa t r , thi s as the nature of the opposition which 1 7t1 the'tote Bar measure ? A coalition between the rte ire r‘ sti Ppoa ter ne t his Friend the Member for Oxford t o G, ae sit tniar s of the voluntary principle did appear o~ark Ili whit anomaly. He could not but remark 4 4 4,4 up ea ~ the opponents to the measure had la te; tix, sing. tithe Members who supported it. He ON (INN" protest against a circular emanating ,?ald _ver y 1 An ti - Maynooth Committee, as con itil.talen;!tiet eatlettionable morality indeed ; and he ie st; with °. J two extracts from it to show the N, o ae Pertc . /% °, 1 ,„ , e , h , they regarded the measure and stas ti r tw o "fie honourable Member then aliosin .The to support his statement.) ala s g that the Antlaynooth Committee th it ger th at 4 8 t ! t o :tt _tnglish gentlemen and Members of tai tl N i tl rPoss e tiZtt.ed c onscientiously, what right had tit t i l t .°4, %laced v , any representation would have af -4108 ita hop ed to to change those conscientious t ere t hea. e4 toti, C u ' ln approacing the consideration ki tt Pita co o s )?-tenabers of that House would con t,ohliset he enfuscience rather than the dictation at ilt!" hi t bPo °ed by the o t i zt ah s p re ntla s opponents of . the measure; 41 test to branch of the discussion, he would rigor ltl . t wae ra , lt t a h b e i assumption which those oppo til4tAa itatualature %et 1. 4% ,1' the t i y advanced, that a pledge had Inaer.o_ti'etebeir election by each Member ef-,, ,, ,ti 0n the increase of the grant. the ; 4 4 1 ,el3l, Positive en " wholly untenable, either on - 1 41 "ien de gagement or equivocal implication. 14 4z ial °Itte ne th to et e b : ° g h e ring such imaginary compact, atner W emus, one just, one Christian ate the social condition of a s vast q ti of t h e h t e th e . e empire.—(Hear, hear.) If ho t esii3, Principles of their adversaries, how etMt ha lt tapt s i ens e of moderation would they not hisht.st Minister had stated that he would t l titt l i t °lsh: yena"lldren to the care of a polar bear or w s k jea , pa. Su c h to to the guardianship of the Eng tof ol th e ar : d th similar expressions had been hi n re m; ayooothetn remember that it was not the ough indeed worthy of the ts 2 tt s eally Protestant Establishment. The s%toaarn . given b • la-st til iita st est y its opponents appeared to sa t , he y ad avour of the measure and the line tt'stlta pled tending rather to ' disarm than a r linai n 44 ,lll & I l i :I t /lee. Let them remember the tt oy 44'qteti t ,,:i9s, ths ,'en, when first introducing the ot ti_ta tit B. th e dis si e t_i r t Is e as a wise foundation,calculated tsZ . a iteituittettliclitsiguuttg.ctentd!lderients of Irish society. c) f I . °ll Worth he speak of the founda }, of the country that would 41,„"Etnta Institut' 0 1 ) , .44 1 of th e lon c ommensurate with the in ‘titi vast Roman Catholic population, -4 With Paltr 4 1 '10 !trowel' grant of 9,000/. doled out grudg- N k ikaltil td disgust ? Was it not rather in lbit we re from which the benefits of i/thBft: r, h to flow for the advantage of 14titeit Die o !' l / 4 1 . 4 _ ea t) One argument against' the 4),tl,Nta of t e „i . 'd with shame and sorrow, it was 4 4 th „ins sestet were taken from the very yttt„ka ,_t and that the fare they got at maeem'i h og good' as whist they were accus '3' of Could not conceive how ' 4 l c ' A • il eati Christ' %lesosea,_ e at ess _ lan men it could be objected of x ,„ s.antiany apostolical. was unmerited th ‘t h' (4 1 44 - T o 'Moth. i t k -eh , vat was an important (pies- L os 01 4 ast ,on lookines at thedegraded ,s;hastile tttnost teimufacturin d Protestant r.ur it t iZst bitehios,S7, ohar acter g oe a a n ch districts, d Christian Church, Il t , is:tgl ar 7 d " th e or that Church as estsi.• Roman Catholic kal i itt, } l l fr e `l tho.' a few the y ,t 1,4 enurear,i7.ine England',c proscribed rtl Vi c ,:%q th "' and would withdraw Ni B t}, s l e : 4 P t t i th e e a oPeei°aPhil genee fui- they would either thantehhiera sectariantmh a u e t, h m etu o or l d er att u e ! thro u )44:4-t—Nrat.7te ecluhe talinisters of their faith, ehtiitibto,__, at the qupstion as one of state •°‘ h e i ee lM Still, than 'on the 'ground of On that point also, f 168. 0 t 'tie° 01 o f , o ot e boa s ins 01 oos A rirese: Novo to b fell g e d I ° l o 0 1 10 4 ire be . e 1 h w h 7 t 01 :o - _A , . bli sl3 l;t 3t tbe ora , a col r efio ,; f e • , a eat' ▪ o e llic l . 00 r' iSel le oo l6 o. ° ,per. • Tb• o r be a• baft - o os yos do { and b 7,01 altP ffic e oco din. ie • d fe is Vg oc th e to f h or io ol ,0 t he 5, P: L 1 6 14 4. - 4 4; [ A d 01 , bat 10 t n o o O a ci i? ob i; iCh ii nfe " P 4 590 11 oA l '; e tir bat ressi e l: O f be r eu 1 10 long 0,000 ye 011 401 ' etnr bee or o d,A, one :iog or Olt leePa e d. sh e sv or fop r eopo i▪ r!,fiecl tho t ss tl ' 019'0 re g re be iroru di e t o e „ s loe 50 10'1 u tily L e ,otb 6 ,, M gre r" 0 „ e n 5° 100 , 001 , r e a te. of ie 9 Asis fun „poy , i t , r „f the the - A to CO i ary The b° o n ▪ . 0 17 1 - t o abe its tire A os to Pl ait ; n ue. Id I " r°a the) ? jfir ;e be ut ,f roi ur. d t ar t 10 0 0 ..tbe t ott i Teo ‘4 , a l • ll } for 00'0 COM"' i t 0 11 5 4,1 varia disc r ,rbe rho 0 lean) h t IO In t n d wt. on is - s loe d no. ot yo were tite se l ii t ' si From MaY lw ; Lt of cons red ide to r. Dtestan,ifier tution• okr'i d Of °f oc i moth, s on) , t 0 the P I d 1 0 e st itertattle,,i discu s :los e ; go ner r the as ons f' tho s c : oo o :n Il deos •0 PA, 0 ; 5 PPir enbybe nts es; 4 llloS 4r oi v edi pe io e pree, 4 l vie 5 pro 10—• ,5 0 r to Pe:a . ause 11 fer oo oL 1 i) of 9 ; t hyee , a ea ) (e to pasw. s So o p la h w hile c yr o f Pose tbe . 0 0 e i •L h e pr(Jl t P „ atti ame n co the r' t 35 1 7 le ftorW.a:o toncoi fal l t o g s , -, ja „ity o a , e - n i "conto ec eif 0 f the i f .3 fr o !l ac L. e e dons ot i v „, tinny Oro P for it s .0 0 ter w er rii ' e a schc ta, 'lO 0 • prie' o ts vide u(l3atholie ;pc .h was ie_ f je t! I••rnber e ,; it te, this i05,!,,:0; a blish is V, ina;ly ha t ,titution : o s in gcn e jth :omen „irl etiaoi ipport, fe; • staileei Mr. B. ESCOTT said that, having listened attentively to the whole debate that had taken place in that House on that subject, and having heard many debates in which the argument preponderated greatly on one side, he must say he had never been present at one in which the arguments of the opposition told so much in favour of the measure opposed. Many of the Honourable Members who had taken part against this measure had dwelt upon the application of the public money to the purposes of the Roman Catholic religion. It was opposed by thousands out of doors, and by many Honourable Members in that House, upon this ground. Now, he should like those who rested thei r opposition on this ground to draw the distinction between a grant of 9,0001., as already given, and 27,0001. as now proposed. lie could not see any difference in 'principle between the present and the smaller grant—if it was wrong to apply 27,0001. to Maynooth College, it was equally wrong to vote 9,0001. The Hon. Member for Dorset (Mr. Bankes) had rested his opposition on the assumption that the people of England were opposed to the measure. Instead of this, ha (Mr. Escott) be lieved that no Member of that House could commit a more unpopular act than to vote for its rejection. He did not believe that any class of the people were op posed to it. He believed the clergy were not opposed to it. If so, where were their petitions ? Where was the petition from Cambridge, of which so much had been said ; where were the petitions from the deaneries and archdeaneries against the passing of this Bill ? lie had lately passed about ten days in the country, and he had only met one or two who were opposed to the measure; while one of the best supporters of it he had come in contact with was a clergyman of the Church of Engleinl. He was satisfied that the people of this country were in favour of this measure, because it was their belief that it would benefit the people of Ireland. Some parties who opposed this measure wore against not only the endowment of a college for the priests of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, but even against the toleration of that religion itself. That course had been already tried and failed. It had been tried during the Cromwellian period, butit had failed to put down the Roman Catholic religion. That faith had triumphed against the tyranny which had been then attempted to prostrate it. The lion. Member for the University of Oxford did not think it proper to take away the 9,0001. ; and if he did not, surely it was no more than just that as the Roman Catholic population of Ireland had increased from two and a half millions to seven millions since that sum of 9,000/. was first granted, that an in creased amount should be now given for their enlarged educational wants. It was not so much as a question of pounds, shillings, and pence that he supported it, but as a measure, in the language of the first Minister of the Crown, to build up a temple of peace between the two countries. He did not look upon it as a final measure, for he was no supporter of the miserable finality policy which had broken up the previous Government, but as an . instalment of justice to lay the foundation of freedom, peace, and good will throughout the United Kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that we should look to the present proceedings of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, as a proof that the object sought to be obtained by the measure had failed. Instead of being satisfied with the measure, it was said the Roman Catholics of Ireland would rest short of nothing but the wild scheme of the Repeal of the Legislative Union between the two countries. But he would say—though the Hos. Member for Cork, and those who followed him, no doubt adopted that policy—he was sure the great body of the good and peaceable Roman Catholics of Ireland sympathised with the opinions expressed by the Hon. Member for Arun del, rather than with those of the lion. Member for Cork. In dealing with the members of the Roman Catholic religion, he would remind the House, in all metters of this kind, " to do unto others as they would that others should do unto them." They, as Protestants, should consider what would be their feelings if placed in the position of their Roman Catholic brethren, and the Government refused to treat them on that just and enlightened principle. They should recollect that it was to the Roman Catholic faith that they were indebted for the foundation of their colleges and public schools ; that by it their Bible had been pre served ; that to it they had been under obligations for many of their most excellent statutes and liberties ; and that its generosity and munificence in works of charity and benevolence were a: tested by a cloud of witnesses.—((dear.) All these were illustrations of its past greatness. They should, therefore, as mem bers of the Protestant Church, and as members of the United Kingdom, concede to the people of Ireland this measure of justice. lie thanked the Ministers for the measure. He rejoiced at its introduction, as he thought it was calculated to serve the best interests of that country. Let them carry forward the good work of justice in the liberal and enlightened spirit in which they had begun, and the time would come when those who opposed the measure would regret that they had done so, and when the people of Ireland would enjoy, from a wise and enlightened policy, the blessings of a brighter and a happier day—a never-ending day of charity and peace.—(Cheers.) Mr. SPOONER said, the lion. Member who had just sat down had begun his address by making a statement in which he would find he had been very much mistaken, for he had contended that he (Mr. Spooner) had argued TUE SUN, LO N DON, TUES_D Al' E VEN IN G, MAY 20. 1845. the merits of this question as a question of pounds, shillings, and pence, or, in other words, that it was a question as to whether 9,0001. or 27,000/. should be the annual grant. Now, he begged to say, that he never did treat this as a money question, or as any other than a religious question, and that he would persevere in opposing it solely from conscientious motives. When this question was first introduced to the House, he said he would be willing to make any sacrifice to conciliate Ireland, short of a measure involving a ques- tion of conscience. But now let him ask the Hon. Mein ber who had last spoken whether he had read the thirty first article of the Church of which he had no doubt he was a religious and conscientious member? That article contained these words. (Here the Hon. Member essayed to read a document he held in his hand, but after several attempts he appeared to be unable to decypher its con tents, which caused considerable laughter. Having made out a, few words such as " blasphemous," " masses," he then continued.) Ile begged to re-• mind Honourable Members opposite, that it was not by clamour that parties could be convinced, or that ridicule could be deemed argument ; and, there fore, he was led to suppose that they had resorted to ridicule because argument had failed them. And he begged to tell the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the home Department in the same words, that numbers did not constitute conviction. Let him (Mr. Spooner) not be misunderstood—towards his Roman Catholic fellow subjects individually he felt the sincerest friendship and regard, and lie gave them credit for acting according to the dictates of their conscience. But he looked upon this question as one which asked the House and the counti y whether the Roman Catholic or the Protestant religion was the religion of the Scrip tures; and if the answer should be in favour or the for mer, then it should be admitted that the Protestant en- ligion was a complete delusion. He was ready to admit that this was not the place in which to enter upon a polemical discussion.—(flear, bear, and laughter.) He was aware that many of h's remarks would not be received with cordiality by those who were now listen ing to him. Neverthess he would not flinch from de claring, openly and honestly, what he felt to be his im perative duty. This measure had been reported upon without the slighest inquiry having been made as to the course of education pursued at Maynooth, but he would state what it was. The first book to which he would call the attention of the House was one which they would find alluded to in the report of the Irish Education Committee, at page 449 of that report. The book to which he alluded was that of Bailly. In the second volume of that work, page 138, they would find it laid down that the Pope might dispense with oaths ; and in another page of the same bock, it was stated that the Supreme Prelate could dispense with vows and oaths in all cases. In this the writer was confirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas, and several others. 1)r. M‘Hale said that it was laid down as a proposition that the utility of the Church was a just cause of the dispensation from oaths, and that the superiors of the Church were the judges of what was for the utility of the Church. Then there was Gelasius (as we understood)—the name being received with suppressed laughter by several Hon. Members, the Hon. Gentleman continued. The mention of that name might cause laughter amongst Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but the book which he had mentioned was a class-book at Maynooth. If Hon. Gentlemen doubted it, let them go into that inquiry which he asked for. Gelasius said that bishops had the power of releasing persons from oaths provided just cause existed. And who were to be the judges of the just cause ? Why the Catholic prelates themselves. He would ask the Hon. Member for Montrose if he was prepared to make this annual perpetual grant, and to give this large sum of money to persons irresponsible to Parliament ? It wast:in vain to say that this measure would be a final measure, or that it would be received as such by the Catholics of Ireland. The Roman Catholics would not be doing justice to themselves, holding, as they did, that theirs was the primitive church—holding, as they did, that all who differed from them were heretics, they would not, he said, be faithful to themselves if they accepted this as a final measure. It would be only looked upon by them as a stepping-stone to further concessions. He would entreat the-House then to pause before they sanctioned this measure. If they doubted, then was the time to stop this Bill and to demand inquiry. The Pro testant Members of that House had in the most solemn manner declared their belief that the Catholic religion was idolatrous and superstitious, and yet they were asked to give their consent to a measure for the training up of the priesthood who taught that religion. It was the paramount duty of the Government before they did this, and of the Lord High Chancellor of the Kingdom to come down to Par liament and ask that that declaration be no longer bind ing. It had been said that the feeling which had been evinced on this question was not a spontaneous feeling, but the effect of di*tion and agitation. But could any sensible man think that without some responding feeling, that any set of linen, however talented, sitting in a room in London, could cause to be laid on the table of that House petitions 'deeper and thicker than the heaviest fall of snow on 'Scotch mountains.—(Laughter.) The people of Great Britain thought and acted for themselves. The great body of the petitioners were men who acted on the spur of the moment. His Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government had described his feelings as a mere effer vescence. He wished to deal with it as a doubtful ques tion, but his Right Hon. Friend should know that re- ligious feeling was deep in the minds of the people of this country. The warning which his Right Hon. Friend gave last session did not alarm the country, because they looked upon him as the Pro testant leader of a Protestant country—as the Protes tant adviser of a Protestant Sovereign—as the leader of a party which rallied round him for four years, and placed him i❑ that high and honourable position for the purpose of preserving the institutions of the country as they found them; and, above all, for the purpose of con serving and preserving the constitution, which this mea sure went directly to undermine. He challenged the Right Hon. Baronet to test the feelings of the country —he felt sure he was conscientious, and that nothing but a sense of public duty would induce him to do what he had done—but let not the Right Hon. Baronet pro ceed further in this course before he threw himself on the Protestant feeling of the country; and if he acted in accordance with their feelings, he would find that warm support which he could not otherwise obtain. He might depend upon it, the country would not sub mit quietly to this change—the greatest change that had ever been proposed by any Minister of the Crown since the days of the Revolution. He called upon the Right Hon. Baronet to appeal to the country, and if the voice of the country was found favourable to the measure, he would never more give it an iota of opposition ; but let not the country undergo that change at the hands of a Minister who had been placed in power under very different expectations.—(Hear, hear.) They might plaister the wounds of the public mind, but they would break out with increased virulence ; the public feeling might smoulder, but it would break out sooner or later ; and he therefore called upon the Government to pause before they committed this great error, which they could not recal, and which would, he conscientiously believed, be fatal to the honour, the peace, and the prosperity of this country. He thanked the House for the manner in which they had heard him. He had no feelings of ill will towards his Catholic fellow-countrymen,with many of whom he lived in terms of friendship. He gave them credit for honour and honesty ; and he thought that if they did not act as they had done, they wouP +ot be performing their duty according to the views of tne re ligion to which they belonged. Mr. C. BULLER said he told his Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford that he was doing an exceedingly foolish thing when he entered into the subject of theology, and entered into an explanation of the doc trines of the Roman Catholic Church, for he might be sure Hon. Members on the other side would quote volumes of theology.—(A laugh.) See the consequence. The lion. Member for Birmingham had thrown aside all other questions, and entirely devoted himself to the study of the Catholic divines—(Laughter)—the 140 volumes of St. Thomas Aquinas, and the voluminous writings of Talacosius, wasn't it ?—(Laughter.) Well, then, Gal latius, or some such name. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to have waded through these, and having found in them two or three doctrines which he considered reprehensible, called upon the House to condemn the measure under its consideration. So that they were to refuse this measure of concession to their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects because the Hon. Member for Birmingham had found, among the immense collection of the works of the great writers of the Catholic Church, monuments of the ability and zeal of barbarous times, a few opi nions which he considered repulsive.—(Loud cheers.) After this warning, he hoped Hon. Members, in the fu ture discussion of this question, would leave the question of theology where it then stood. The Hon. Member for Birmingham seemed to be fearful of encountering ridi cule. lie could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he was before Parliament with a firm determination of carrying them through. He hoped the day was not far distant when the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church would take place, for all these measures led to it. He found that this measure was proposed by Ministers who were put in power to arrest the progess of a principle on which they confessed they must govern Ireland. There was one point on which he would make concession to the opinions of those opposed to him, averse as they were to the policy on which they ought to govern. He did not think the experiment was disproportionate to the object. He was obliged to admit that he could not look upon the measure as a solitary measure. It was not a solitary measure at the present moment. He looked upon it in connexion with the excellent measure for the increase of academical education for Ireland, which was introduced the other night; and in connexion with the promise given the other night of assimilating the municipal franchise in Ireland with the municipal franchise in England. Whatever might be his objections to the details still he could not think that he could for a moment bring these objections against a measure which showed a policy of justice towards Ireland. It seemed to him to be the duty of every friend to Ire land—of every person wishing justice to that country, and of every person w h o w i s h e d t o con ti nue th e con nexion between the two parts of the empire, to support the measure which was now before them. That was a policy to which he gave as strong and as unhesitating a support, as if it were introduced by a Liberal Mi nistry, and as if the existence of that Ministry de pended on its support.—(Hear, and laughter.) If this measure were rejected by them, they would discontent the people of Ireland, and give them a just cause for showing that the repeal of the union was the only remedy for the evils of the country. The claim of the Irish people to have their religion upheld and respected was just as great as that of the people of England and Scotland to have theirs upheld, and 36,0001. was a very small sum for that purpose, considering that they had deprived them of that endowment whi c h t h e i r 'ancestors gave them for the support of their hierarchy.—(Hear, hear.) Certain speeches on both sides of the House resolved themselves into this, that they could not support an endowment of a church, because they adopted the voluntary principle, and they ought not to give anything to any church whatever. The application of the voluntary syst em in the present instance was quite absurd, because they en dowed the Presbyterians and Unitarians in the north of Ireland; but whatever be the religion of the rich they gave them some of the public money, and it was only when poor men came forward for the support of their religion that they buttoned up their pockets.— (Hear, and laughter.) That was a principle which was both odious and ridiculous. It could not be just, for they called upon the Catholics to pay all the Protestant sects, and why not pay them something in return. The arguments used were, that the doctrines of the Roman Catholics were unsound, but though he was ready to submit that many of their doctrines were erroneous, he at the same time considered that the religious opinions of every class of the community should be equally respected. The existing repugnance to the Roman Catholic religion was quite ungrounded. They used invariably to ground their case on the assumption of a temporary expediency to coerce the whale party in power to fall in with their views. Their case was precisely similar to that which was equally tenable for all parties. They considered if a new policy to be pursued towards Ireland was the means of their obtaining the reins of Government they would be fully justified in following it up.—(Hear, hear.) They thought if they could place the Right Hon. Baronet in power, they could make him the instrument of their intentions. The pro posed measure was of far too great importance to the in terests of Ireland to be lightly discussed. It was to the mutual interest of all parties in the House to co-operate one with the other ; and without that mutual union it would be impossible to do justice to the long-neglected claims of the Irish people. He had no gr ea t m i sg i v i ngs as to the ultimate effect of giving sati s f ac ti on t o I re l an d ; but then it would require the energetic and united efforts of all parties. Every step in the conduct of their policy towards Ireland should be unanimous. He considered if the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government were disheartened in the progress of the policy at present pursued towards that country, a great and glaring wrong would be perpetrated on the Irish nation; and the Right Hon. Gentleman might rely on his (Mr. fuller's) support, not only on this, but on every occasion when a similar measure to the present should be proposed for the amelioration of Ireland.— (Cheers.) Public opinion was more in favour of the measure than was commonly thought. He would suggest an idea which was more important than the Right Hon. Baronet was willing to admit. He would inquire, now that he had done so much fo r t h e Irish nation, what did s H a e ti a s r iac h ti e o a with which wise the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of t he lesson s proposeon Home Department had been received , and it was a matter of great congratulation for him. Good policy was now being pursued towards Ireland, and it might be con sidered as the omen of better times hereafter. The Catholic emancipation was not happily the last boon which the people of Ireland were to obtain, nor was it now intended, since they could no longer exclude the Catholics as religionists, to debase them as a political party. Lord Melbourne's Govern ment had done all that laid in its power towards amelio rating the condition of the Irish nation, and the people were satisfied that all that could be done had been done, and it was the satisfaction that resulted from this convic• tion which induced them to place confidence in the Noble Lord's administration. Bad policy pursued towards a country for whole centuries was not to be remedied by the adoption of one solitary measure. The Irish people re naturally suspicious of the good faith of the present Government, when they teak into consideration the treatment they had hitherto received from them. They were doubtful what would be the result of the policy at present pursued, but he would advise the Right Hon. Baronet only to persevere in the course he had elected to follow, and Irishmen would soon be satisfied of his good intentions towards them. National feelings were not always the less favourable because they were not always noisily expressed. He was firmly of opinion that the repeal of the Union, about which so much noise was the greatest enemy to the in terests o d been of bthenpehoepalrd, e o f Ireland. The question was one of great importance and considerable intricacy; and, in his opinion, the manner in eihich it had been met was the only means of obviating the danger which would have resulted had it been less resolutely dealt with. The Right Hon. Baronet had been repeatedly taunted upon the severity which he had exercised on that occasion; but his conduct then, even if it had been reprehensible, had now been amply compensated for by the boon which he had offered to the Irish people. Hon. Members might discuss the question of the Oregon territory at their leisure, but he would remind them that there were many political Oregons in Ireland, the boundaries of which had not yet been settled. And this wrong headed policy of curtailing and restricting the rights of Ireland had been pursued for centuries. Against that policy th e G overnm ent of this country would now contend only by f o ll ow ing such a course as the Right Hon. Baron e t was pursu i n g.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet would go on, and he was sure that if he did so, he would secure to this country the entire affections of the people of Ire land—(Cheers)—and render the connexion of Ireland with this country a bond of strength, instead of a mark of opprobrium and subjecti on .—(Hear.) Sir V. BLAKE, at gr eat l engt h, supported the mea sure of the Government, w h ose pc licy he defended with , great warmth. But he was h ear d very imperfectly in deed, and many passages of hi s s peech which excited great merriment in the House, were entirely lost to the gallery. We understood him to conclude by recom mending the establishment of a second university in Dublin, without interfering with the privileges of that which now exists. Lerd INGESTRE rose simply to give his vote for this grant. He would frankly confess that if the vote had come from the other side of the House that he should have opposed it, because he had seen, in their conduct when on the Ministerial side of the House, a truckling to public opinion which he should ever oppose. But the contrary was.the case with the present Ministry. They had vindicated the supremacy of the law, and then they prOposed measures for the pacification of Ireland. He had always been an advocate for what was called justice to Ireland, and he had given a vote, though a silent one, against the grant, for he felt that it was so small as to enable the Roman Catholic priests to teac h mischief without any corresponding power to do good. He would have preferred a modification of the term, and would have liked to have a definite period fixed for the grant. Three years would certainly be too short a time for toping the effect of the experiment, but five or seven years might have been so. As, however, he had no opportunity of availing himself of this advantage ho should vote for the grant as it stood on the motion. Mr. LAWSON moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr. REDINGTON opposed the adjournment. Mr. LAWSON said that there were several gentlemen who wished to address the House, and it was clearly impossible to finish the debate that night. He had him self endeavoured to catch the Speaker's eye early in the evening, and should desire to state his opinions, which he could not do that night. Lord MOSELEY opposed the adjournment Sir R. INGLIS approved of the adjournment. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thought the debate ought to proceed for an hour or two yet. Mr. lIINDLEY said that it was not fair to charge the opponents of the measure with not having come for ward to express their opinions that evening, especially after the extraordinary opinion advanced by the Hon. Member for Honiton. Sir R. PEEL would not oppose the adjournment, al though he thought it better to continue it for another hour or two. If they were to do so he was convinced that any Hon. Member who wished to address the House would have a fair and patient hearing from a full House. He (Sir R. Peel) would venture to predict that from five till nine o'clock next evening- the House would ho co:nparatively empty, and he thought that sufficient time for the consideration of this question, whieh was to be seen in the. diminished agitation against the measure. Lord INGESTRE said he was much surprised at the statement of the Hon. Member for Wallingford for he could not discover what connexion there was be. tweet' his (Lord Ingestre's) speech and the question o adjournment. not inclined to ridicule him. It was more in sorrow than in anger that he heard such discussions, and in such a spirit. He felt pained that the Hon. Member should think it necessary to declare in that House that their Roman Catholic fellow subjects were labouring under an awful delusion. He certainly thought that an Hon. Member who spoke in that way—an Hon. Member who took credit to himself for a considerate regard for his Catholic fellow-subjects, and who yetcould insult them in this deliberate manner, was himself labouring under an awful delusion. He hoped there was no occasion to be guided by the advice of the Hon. Gentleman and the Hon. 3lemlier for Dorset to dissolve Parliament. He did not see any necessity for it.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Mem ber for Dorset said that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had ad vised a dissolution of Parliament on the Reform Bill ; but the reason of that was, that the Reform Bill had been thrown, of which there was no chance of the May. nooth Bill. lie was one of the very few Members who had received no remonstrance from his constituents on this subject, although he had given the Bill and would give the Bill hii most anxious and zealous support, and he thought that his constituents had thereby acted pro perly, and shown that they thoroughly understood the real principle of a representative Government. He looked upon the provision for the education of the Catholic clergy as a great good, and he regarded it as a stop in the right direction—the first advance towards a Just and concililiatory lino of policy towards Ireland. It was not a mere change of opinion in a particular man, but a total change of policy which muit now be persevered in, whatever Government was in office. Roman Catholics were now put upon a level, in point of civil rights, with their Protestant fellow-subjects. The Emancipa tion Bill had been passed—the penal laws had been abolished—the Catholic Bequests Bill had been carried into operation—and now the Government proposed a measure which would afford a full and satisfactory mode of education to the Roman Catholic priesthood. He re garded all these things as a portion of that line of policy which would ultimately be found the most beneficial. Coercion had failed, and it was most remark able that the very men who most strenuously opposed thoe measures of relief to Roman Catholics were now their most ardent supporters, nay, actually brought them LUNATIC ASYLUMS. Sir T. FREMANTLE , after a shor t discussion, in which Messrs. Iledin g t e n and Grogan t oo k part , ob tained leave to bring in a,Bill for establishing a central asylum for lunatics, and to amend the Act for the lunatic asylums in Ireland, which was reada first time, and or dered to be read a second time this day week. The oilier orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, May 19. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat ou the Wool sack shortly after Five o'clock. A message from the Commons brought up several Bills. The Exchequer-bills Bill WAS read a third tuna and passed, Lord PORTMAN presented petitions from Somerset in favour of the grant to the College of Maynooth. Lord BEAUMONT presented petitions from the Catholics of Clithero, complaining of donations and be quests left for Catholic purposes having been appro priated to subjects other thin those for which they were intended. The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S presented several pe titions against the grant to the College of Maynooth. Lord MONTEAGLE presented petitions in favour of the grant to the College of Maynooth from Tunbridge Wells, signed by three Protestant clergymen and a great number of inhabitants of that town. The Marquis of ELY presented a petition from the inhabitants and parishioners of the parish of lieleslEerry, in the county of Tyrone, against the grant to the College of Maynonth. Lor'd STOURTON presented a petition against the Debtors and Creditors' Bill. PUBLIC MUSEUMS BILL. Lord WIIARNCLIFFE moved the committal of the Public Museums Bill. The Bill then went through Committee, in which cer tain amendments were agreed to. Lord ASIIBURTON presented a petition from an in dividual, whose name the Noble Lord did not mention, complaining of the hardship he had experienced by the operation of the 201. clause of the Debtors and Creditors' Act. The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented a num ber of petitions against the increased Maynooth grant. These were petitions against the proposed endowment. his Lordship then presented petitions from Glasgow and several ether places against all grants to religious bodies, one of which, from the Free Church of St. Cyrus, and Dr. Keith, its head man, of European eminence. These might be said to express the feelings of the Dissenters, and to exhibit the force of the voluntary principle. RAILWAYS. Lord BROUGHAM was aboitt to speak, when Earl FITZ WILLIAM begged to interrupt the Noble Lord, by moving for the appointment of a Select Committee for inquiry into the representations and com plaints of landowners whose lands were intersected by any railway. LAW REFORM. Lord BROUGHAM could not help expressing his pleasure at having given way to his Noble Friend, espe cially the Noble Lord connected with Yorkshire; and he was rejoiced to find that the subject was likely to be taken up with some prospect of utility. He had risen to bring under their Lordships' notice that subject of universal and enduring interest—the improve ment of the jurisprudence of the country. It was now seventeen years since he had first brought this sub ject under the attention of Parliament in another House, of which he was at that time a Member. The re sult of his motions in that place had been the ap pointment of two commissions, one for the im provement of real property law, and the other for the improvement of the process of the courts of law. The results of the reports of these two Com missions was the suggestion or the passing of Acts for the amendment of the Civil Law of the country. One of these laws was the improve ment of the law with respect to personal rights, which were called in the language of the Courts the law of real and personal actions. It was with a geat sense of .obligation that he referred to the services of the eminent men who had given their services on those commissions. The other of these commissions had reference tothe real property of the country. The utmost diligence had been used on these commissions to ascertain the source of the evils, and to devise the most efficient remedies. He could not forget that on one of those commissions was the distinguished man now the Chief Baron of the Ex chequer, and that with him were those eminent members of the profession, Mr. Baron Alderson and Mr. Justice Wightman. To the other were added those distinguished conveyancers, Brodie, Tyrrell, Carr, Duval, and Du charest. Nor should he forget that to the real property commission was added also the able assistance of his Noble and Learned Friend behind him, who was after wards Attorney-General, and brought to his duties not only the great labour, unsurpassed industry, and exten sive experience in the courts of law, but also those va rious and high talents which had given him so prominent a place in his profession. In addition to these benefits there was also a debt of gratitude due to his Noble and Learned Friend, in that he had given his entire time to the commission, and during the whole period of his at tendance on that commission had refused all remunera- tion for his services from his clients or the public. The result of these inquiries had been, that a great change had taken place, not only as it regarded the law of real property, but in the practice of the courts, and the law of evidence. Those who considered that no improvement had takes place in the law, would recollect the state it was in, in 1828, at which time his late much-respected friend Lord Eldon was at the head of the law of the country. A great change had undoubtedly taken place since that time. Great and salutary changes had been brought into operation, so great, indeed, that were any of the old lawyers to arise from their present re pose, where they lay undisturbed by the call of clients, they would imagine they had been brought into existence in a new world—(Hear, hear)—and would be altogether unable to recognise the present state of the law, so much did it differ from that which they had formerly supported. Such a result must have afforded the greatest satisfaction to those who sup ported not only amendment and improvement in the law of the country, but the Legislature itself. Since the 7th of February, 1828, of the many improvements in the law then suggested, in fifty-eight instances im provements had been effected, and sixty-six carried into effect as the law of the land. Not only in the matters then suggested had improvements been effected, but numbers of others incidentally introduced had also been taken up, recommended by the Common Law Commis sion, and carried into effect by the Government. The criminal law of this country was no longer as heretofore in its general aspect the most cruel of all codes of civi lised countries, short of those who inflicted punishment by torture. But in respect to capital punishments, it had become the most humane in executing upon male factors the punishment of death for grave offences. It was, in this respect, at the present time, the most temperate, cautious, and abstinent of a n y civilised code in the world at the present day. In the measures of reform carried out the Court of Chancery had not been excepted, where formerly the law's delay had wrapped its suitors in its endless folds. The pro ceedings there had been reduced to within moderate confines, moderate when compared with the time when Lord Eldon presided over it. In other Courts impor tant improvements foul been effected in their proceed ings. He might therefore well say, that although much might yet remain to be done, much in these two great particulars had been effected, and many great evils had been extirpated from our legal system. " At rabidsa tigres absunt, et smva leonum Semina; nec miseros fallunt aconita legentes : Nec rapit immensos orbes per humurn, neque tanto, Squameus in spiram tractu se colligit anguis." These successes ought to encourage them to proceed in the improvement of the present system—not too fast, but at a moderate and duly regulated speed. The past success that had attended their efforts ought to encourage them to re newed efforts in the future. And therefore he, so en • couraged, felt bound to go on—not to rush wholesale and unadvisedly into alterations, but to carefully look at all—to examine all, so as to see where so much had been done, and what had been left undone. He would shortly state, in a few words, what he thought ought to be done ; and he would not point out one single defect without at the same time pointing out a safe and easy remedy for those defects. And first, with regard to the courts of law, he could not but admit that since the year 1828 great and important and extensive reforms had taken place in those courts. He could not but recollect that at that time what he chiefly complained of was the different amount of business in the different courts of common law—that whilst the Court of Queen's Bench was over whelmed with work, and whilst the Court of Common Pleas was sufficiently worked, the Court of Exchequer, owing to a certain monopoly of the officers of the Court, had scarcely anything to do. That defect had been remedied. The monopoly of the officers had been abo lished, a great practical reform had taken place, and his Noble and Learned Friend at present on the Woolsack had accepted the office of Lord Chief Baron, had brought his great talent and great experience to bear upon that Court, which ever since that time had been as well em ployed as any other. The openingof the Court of Common Pleas was another reform which had taken place in the year 1832. That Court had been opened by a warrant from the Crown, and not by an Act of Parliament. There could be no doubt but an Act of Parliament could have opened the Court, but, unhappily, it was doubtful whether or not the Crown pos sessed the power. The opening of the Court was opposed, and his Noble Friend and himself had been of opinion that the warrant of the Crown was of no effect unless authorised by an Act of Parlia ment, and therefore the Court was again closed; but he hoped that the matter would be reconsidered, and that the Legislature would supply the defect whieh alone prevented the opening of the Court. Then again there was Court, consisting of three judges, which had no business, and which gave no satisfaction to suitors or to the profession. That Court had been abolished. It had been instituted in consequence of a simple notion then prevailing that in the common law courts there could not be more than twelve judges. His Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, not frightened at this super stition, had appointed three other judges, and there were now fifteen judges of the courts of common law, and he thought that many months would not elapse be fore they would find that these fifteen would not be sufficient, and that it would be absolutely necessary to make some other arrangement for an increase of the judicial power. However, he would not allude further to a subject which was still a matter for consideration. Another subject of complaint at that time had been that the commencement of the periods of the Trinity and Easter terms were not fixed. That Malt had been re medied by a Bill which had been introduced by Sir James Scarlet, when he was Attorney-General. The n been by important reform which had been effected, The had by the abolition of the office of Welsh judge. gentlemen who held the office s of Welsh judges in were, during one half of the ye ar, practising as barristers ofthe Westminster Ball, and during .the other half year going the circuit as judges, They of were Members of the Hous e of Commons manythem, and of course voted according to their habitual predilections, and yet in Wales they were judges in the last resort in criminal cases, and subject to appeal in civil cases also. These jurisdictions had since been en tirely . abolished. Another complaint which he had made in the year 1828 had now, he must confess, ceased to have much foundation, and the credit of the doing away with this abuse was due to the present Govern ment. He had complained at that time of party-spirit influencing the Lord Chancellor, in whom the nomination of judges was vested, in appointing men to that high judicial office. Such had been the practice at that time. He himself, when Lord Chancellor ' had taken a diff eren t course, and his Noble and Learned Friend had followed the course which has himself had pursued, and had, without the slightest regard to party con• siderations, made recently an excellent appoint ment to the judicial bench in the person of one of the most learned, most able, and most honour able men in 'Westminster Hall, but who was supposed, indeed was well known, to be a political opponent of the present Administration. He hoped that this example would always live in the recollection of othcr Govern ments, and that it would be followed by the successors of his Noble and Learned Friend. So far for the courts of common law. As fur the courts of equity they were making it the interest of the judge to decide on one side of the question, by paying him 10,000/. a year instead of 2,5001. a year, in peace or in war. He did not mean to say that Sir William Scott, or any of his suc cessors, ever yielded to that temptation ; very far from that ; but he would have them not only free from guilt, but above suspicion ; but under those circumstances it was likely that an uninterested mind would imagine that things were not without their influence. Dr. Lushington had now a fixed salary, and he was no longer paid to the detriment of the country. He was now paid 4,000/. a year, and was most properly excluded from party conflicts and political controversies. The objection to the Court of Delegates was a most just one, as appeals were made from learned judges to un learned civilians. The Court of Delegates was abo lished and transferred to the Privy Council, which was a remodelling ; and there an objection existed, as there were three judges who, because they constituted a form, were required to decide most important cases. That was done away with ; and no one could doubt that a great improvement had been made in that jurisdiction. Bills were brought in and passed encouraging the set tling of courts of arbitration, according to the sugges tion of 1828, which had been greatly beneficial to suitors. But he grieved to say that there was still an evil which he rejoiced to find was sought to be suppressed by the institution of county courts of local judicature which would add to the benefits of the suitor in this country. Out of 7,000 suits which were brought into the Courts, 5,000 ceased in consequence of the operation of the courts of recon cilement to which appeals might be made. This satis factory appeal was not compulsory, but optional, at least compulsory, viz., when after a mutual trust a decision had been accorded. He would now call attention and solicit the most earnest attention of the landed interest, on bath sides of the House, for there was not one por tion of the country which had so deep a stake in the law of real property as they, and as to transfer and purchase no class had so direct and directing an interest in the amendment of the law as the landed proprietors. He, therefore, felt confidence in the recollection that every Noble Member he addressed, had more or less an in terest in the land, and consequently in the subject then before them. The first amendment in the case affect ing real property was the abolition of the law of fine and recovery. When he had occupied the place of his Noble Friend on the Woolsack he had re medied that defect. Before that reform, the tenant en tail, if late in life, and wishing to settle his property upon those near to him by ties of consanguinity, could not do it. The delay, the enormous expense - of fine and recovery, threatened and deterred him, No longer, however, did such odious anomalies exist; by the inter position of the Legislature, that disgraceful tax upon property was removed. He knew of many landholders who at the time of the passing of that measure, which abolished so monstrous an abuse, waited a year, and, fortunately being in the prime of life, waited without injury, and by that course saved themselves hundreds, ay, thousands of pounds. Some silly and old-fangled notions at first furiously opposed it. It was fancied that property, like gravitation, must always be acting down wards, and, like that notion upon gravitation, it was an absurd fallacy, for gravitation did not necessarily require a tendency downwards except as it was impelled by some collateral power. If a man died then, without brothers or sisters, it was held impossible that his pro perty should ascend backwards up to his nearest rela tions, and it virtually descended to those of whom the devisee was utterly regardless. But all these fantastic absurdities had been overcome, and happily they had become obsolete. The statute of limitations next sue • ceeded, and by its great and invaluable requirements had been made effectual in producing a reform more complete, more salutary, than any which had yet cha racterised and purified our code. It was intended by the Legislature to be a quiet enactment, to appease liti gation, to supply the defect of insufficient titles, and, in the graphic words of one of their ablest brethren, Lord Plunkett, when addressing the other House, " when Time stood with his scythe mowing down the myriads of his victims, politic humanity had put an hour-glass in his other hand, by which he measured the duration and rapidity of the strokes." But that remedy had been un happily unsuccessful; the scythe had too often prevailed over the sand, and another more effectual measure must be sought. Instances had frequently occurred of a tenancy , in tail enduring for 250 years, and then the old title re vived, and, though subject to devise, embarrassment, mortgage, or exchange, and thus treated as a fee simple, up suddenly started an adverse, an unexpected claimant, and ousted the possessor from his inheritance. But the great misfortune to be dreaded in this state of the law was that a deed of conveyance might have been signed and lying by for a number of years, and then up started against the present owner some fatal objection that never till then had been dreamed of. The Commission of which he had been speaking having removed all the chances of those objections, he did think that on that account alone its labours had proved of great value. But between the Ecclesiastical Commission and the commis ' sion on real property some slight difference existed, but it was only as to a question of time, of twenty, or thirty, or forty years.—(Hear, hear.) But now all reversions were effectually barred, and all real actions, with one exception, were swept away by the Commissioners' report. But now, as he had said he would, he would show their Lordships what remained to be done. He had shown that the descent of property, and the right to the possession of property, and the title, had all been made clear and distinct, and, therefore, property had in reality been made more valuable than ever. But then there was the question of the transfer of property. Nothing could be conceived worso than the position of a person who wished to convey real estates, or an estate held by fee simple, or by leasehold, or for a term of years; and there was, also, the question of the conveyance of property held in perpetuity, which was one of great importance. Before the report of this Commission, in every deed of sale or transfer there was such an endless prolixity of statement in the preamble, the recital, and all other parts of it, that it was impos sible it could be correct. To those who possessed large estates, perhaps the expense of those deeds would be no object ; but in the transfer of a small estate the expense was so great that the owner could not afford it; and the expense of transferring one acre was as great as that of conveying one thousand. It was not the mere expense of the parchment; it was the ex pense of the draftsmen; and the words were so nume rous that the chances of error were very great indeed; and he questioned whether any person who signed one of these documents ever read it, or did more than sign his name and acknowledge the deed as his. Indeed, he knew one conveyancer, a very respectable man, in whose deeds many mistakes were discovered long after he had died.—(Laughter.) In another case, that where a large property in Oxfordshire was bequeathed, owing to the omission of a single line, litigation ensued; the matter was brought before the Court of Queen's Bench; the Court of Queen's Bench decided in one way; the Court of Common Pleas another, and ultimately the house of Lords decided with the Court of Common Pleas. Thus mistakes had occurred which might have been fatal to the claims of the rightful owner. Why should not these matters be made plain, and reduced to as narrow a compass as possible? It would benefit not only the landed but the commercial interest, for when a merchant gave 20,0001. for an es state, he would, of course, desire its being fully secured to him. Why should not the Legislature facilitate the sale and transfer of land, and prevent the possibility of a badtitle through legal informality? Why should they not protect the buyer from the effects of technical flaws, by consolidating the law upon this subject into one short deed? And the Bill he proposed to bring in had a copy of that deed—four lines, and no more, which he judged fully sufficient to answer all the purposes, and hich had been entirely approved of by four of the most able conveyancers in the country. An Act of Parlia ment in two pages would, he trusted, be passed, enact ing that whenever used this form of conveyance would be guaranteed as to its entire sufficiency, and that all had been done which the law required. Of course, if there were persons who preferred a more ample and complex form of conveyance, who would rather see their titles on ten sheets of parchment than on a single page, they would be at liberty to hazard it. If a man preferred a large form, wordy and involved, let him try it, and God speed him—let him trust to the lawyers and to the courts of law. The Bill he proposed con tained the very form which would be necessary and the enacting words, both in case of sales and in case of lease. When he saw the small amount of rent, and the small value of annual payments frequently made, he thought it was of still more importance to the poor than to the rich that there should be a clear and secure form.—(Hear, hear.) A defect had grown up in our laws from the separation of law and equity. The matter required some explanation. When i s pe e r a s9n_ mortgaged any real property he did it, generaly p k even s 1,000 ing, on a term of years, 500 or sometimes years. The object of the term was, tis t. might be satisfied, and the purposes o there ought to be be the case, and properly speaking at th t e he transaction there fore, accomplished. In the course of Tame years this might this was very o then a surrende f r te o e f etheegleteertema. byTitiehetemrmortgwaasge,e. himfor some to the mortgagor was kept alive by outstanding ; or it might be that the term surren deredrimt w m as ig e h o t supposed su b e e htbing, it w a ft : ideal, nominal,purpose of hi his own. sp ec tra T l— he bu te t a potent agent, often capable of creating mischief or de struction. This spectral creature of the imagination was sometimes thought harmless—but it was not so in many instances, which must be familiar to his Noble and Learned Friends. Supposing the term out. The burrower wishes to borrow more ' money and creates another term, and he does not tell the person of dium he borrows that there is another term outstanding. The second termor has only the lift , interest—because the other term gives the legal estate. The borrower borrows a third sum. That very often happened, fur generally speaking a man who once borrowed nau3t borrow again. lie went to the third lender who knew no thi ng of what had passed. lle did not know that the borrower had not given him the legal estate as well as the others. He lent the money, hut found there was an intermediate term, or not find ing it thought there might be, for he saw the borrower go a fourth time to a lender. He becomes startled and goes to the first tumor, from whom he gets possession. In this manner he, as lawyers technically and expres sively say, squeezes out the middle lender, and the middle lender, though his title was older, so lost his money and security. In fact, both were as effec tually squeezed out of him by this process as the breath, by any other, could be squeezed out of his body. And all this was done by a legal spectre, and apinst the law 313113/101, 44 qul prior tempore potius jure," by substituting a flaw or fiction. Now,-/et it be supposed that the third lender was secure in - hislitle, he was exposed to numeropsisks. He must be ayurchaser without notice to be se.4lKetlfrom iacmnbranc,e. Notice might be actual or constructive. For instatee"the notice might be served on a man's attorney Or; even upon his attorney's agent, or through a Chancery imit, of which the mortgagee bad never beard. Again the courts of law might presume that the term had been surrendered. He knew an experienced conveyancer who was con cerned in a case where one of his clients was obliged to seek through four different diocesan courts, at an ex pense of upwards of 4001., for a surrender of the term in order to complete his title. Surely this required an immediate and an effectual remedy. This fictitious term ought to be quashed. The Bill he was about to bring in would remove this great scandal to the law. A Learned Friend of his was about to introduce a Bill for the general registration of deeds, and nothing could be more desirable. A case had recently happened where it was supposed the will had been burnt with the mansion, and where, if so, the property would have consequently gone to the heir-at-law. In breaking up an old chaise, after the fire, an old writing-desk was found, and out of this writing-desk tumbled the will by which the whole fortune, 30,0001. a year, fell to the devisee, quite another person. The only opponents to a proper system of registration were the attorneys of Yorkshire, where the registration was monopolized. At the time of the Reform Bill they pla carded the towns in that shire with Bills callingupon the landed interest to resist the Bill, which threatened to in vade their rights, and which would expose their private legal transactions to the public gaze, although it was expressly provided that nobody could see any re gistered document without being authorised by the party who was interested in it. He would bring in a Bill on that measure, but one considera tion—one duty—deterred him : he felt that they must enlighten and improve the minds of the landed interest, fur the purpose of exciting them to a rebellion to emancipate themselves from the penal statutes under which they at present laboured. Unless they did that, he thought that he should, by introducing such a Bill, run the risk of losing the others. He hoped that their Lordships would not think that his opinion in favour of registration was in any way weakened ; but if it were put in the same boat with the rest, he thought that the felon of the crew might injure the rest. That was the reason he did not bring in that measure. The reports of the Common Law Commissioners alluded to the new rules fur the practice of these courts, and that at once did away with a very large number of the objections urged in February, 1828. With respect to the law of evidence, much remained still to be done ; but the principal objec tion urged in 1828 had been removed by the Lord Chief Justice's Bill, where evidence of any kind is not refused on account of discredit. That Bill contained important improvements on the law of evidence, and the great improvement way, with respect to the length of time during which church-rates would suffer from the Sta tute of Limitation. The limitation as to bonds was also removed by a late statute. The law of evidence had been much improved, as now an eldest sea, being in person a remainder in estate tail to any man, may necessarily be examined. No interest, however great, weuld now be sufficient to exclude any man's evidence. They examined a de fendant in Chancery, and why should they not do the same in the courts of law under a due restriction? He now would wish to call the attention of their Lordships to two great improvements—one in the civil and the other in the criminal jurisprudence. In Scotland, if a man possess a right by marriage or in any other way to a property that may come in question, he may institute an action for the purpose of having it declared whether he had such a right or not. Not so in England, for no man can tell whether he have property existing in Scotland or in England, because there was no means of bringing a declaratory action. The criminal part was that to which he wished to call the attention of the Noble Lord on the woolsack. The Lord Chief Justice felt a deal of inconvenience at not being able to send more frequent commissions of oyer and terminer to the several counties in England. The Central Criminal Court made it im possible that any person should be imprisoned for any felony beyond a few months ; but if he happen to be tried out of that district he may be imprisoned for several months. Why should that be ? Because there were not justices enough. But if they would create suf ficient justices, they might send offenders from the coun ties where the offences were committed to counties where the justices were, and they would enable the Government to send judges four times instead of twice a year, to all the counties in England. Hitherto they had been deal ing with the rights of property, real and personal, and the actions and remedies consequent upon such cases ; but the most important of all these were the matters which may affect property, or the rights, not of property, but of real estates. In this country there were many per sons, and some of them of the highest rank in circum stances, whom no one can declare to be married or not. Was not such practices shameful, and contrary to all humanity? and hence arose a conflict between the laws of Holland and England, which was quite disgraceful. Lord Hardwick's Act was most inconsistent in itself ; it required that no person shall marry under twenty-one years of age without the consent of his parents, but with banns they were allowed. It was most inconsistent, for they might go to Birmingham, where four hundred banns are proclaimed every morning or they might go to Scotland for 51., and come back married, and the marriage was as good, according to the customs of the country, as any marriage in the world. That law was made to check the poor man from carrying away a rich heiress. But they go off to Scotland, if they even get a few pounds, so that the law is perfectly inoperative for the purpose for which it was intended. But be (Lord Brougham) proposed that they should require a twelve months' residence in Scot land, before the divorce of an English marriage could be given, and three weeks' residence in Scotland before a Gretna-green marriage could be considered good. It was also necessary that the forms should be according to the customs of England, but they were different in all countries ; and how could they tell whether marriages contracted in England Scotland or even in the East Indies were lawful. He hoped that they would quiet the minds of the people on that subject. Before concluding he would just state that there was no law more satisfactory than that respecting the debtor and creditor, whereby imprisonment was never inflicted for debt but in cases where fraud was in tended or for wilful extravagance. He hoped that the Members of both Houses of Parliament would no longer consider the freedom from arrest as their prerogative, or the privilege of their situation. While arrest was law, it was quite fit that they should be free from arrest, because they might be imprisoned from factious purposes, or from the oppression of the Crown. The law makers should not be law breakers; but admitting that they ought to be free from arrest, why should they net have the privilege of paying their debts?—why should the Members of the Houses of Commons and Lords be the only persons in the com munity exempt from the payment of debts? That was a question which he wished to have answered, and which he would enable the Houses of Parliament to answer before he was much older. Let them see a Bill passed to make the Members of the I-louses of Parliament liable to the payment of their debts out of their property, and to be punished for frau dulently making away with it. Let them not be re duced to such a deplorable state, that a man seeking for a 301. debt, could not get thirty pence. Was it fit that they should continue the representatives of the Commons in one House, or hereditary justices in the other ? How could a lord condemn a man for having defrauded his creditors, when he himself was doing the same every day ? They might have the courage to re fuse this Bill, but that courage would ooze out by de grees, and he believed that that man would not have to live very long, who would survive to see that courage. A bankrupt, according to Mr. Smith's Bill, could not sit in the House of Commons, but there was no law at present declaring that an insolvent man was not fit to make laws which he himself could not obey. He had now done. Some, if not all of these Bills, would not pass. lie had no manner of doubt that he would live to see the whole of them pass. lie hoped and trusted that he should live to see the Registry Bill pass, and to see a criminal code enacted ; and that, in addition to the benefits which this Parliament and Government had con ferred upon the country, a digest of the laws would follow, which would be an appropriate sequel.—(Hear, hear.) If so, he should rest in peace and content from his labours, satisfied with having had a hand, however . feeble—a share, however humble —in erectina column to the glories of the Br e g n is n l 2 l Legislature positeorder —(Hear, hear)—a column of t solid sense of the community,adorn edexperience, and all the various originating in the virtues,t branches, e h various fruits of all the venous which compose alike. --(near, hear .) And if he of this community to aid the Ministers of the should have the happess that great work, he had no wish that any and constitute and represent al_lclasse and all interests Crown in doing and exp CAMPBELL said he should have been happy to naLmoerdbut t h e i rs should appear upon the column. enter into sll the topics which his Noble and Learned Friend had so ably introduced, if the hour of the night were not so discouraging, and the state of the House itself so formidable. Not even the eloquence of his Noble and Learned Friend, who had the happiness to make the driest of all subjects the most amusing —(A laugh)—nor even the importance of the subjects themselves, had been able to detain more Noble Lords than himself (Lord Campbell) upon that (the Opposition) side, and the Noble President of the Council on the other. The other Ministers of the Crown had retired to deliberate over the affairs of the State—or perhaps to join at the re freshment table, where his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack was doubtless in haste, to join them. The LORD CHANCELLOR—No, I'm not—(A laugh.) _ Lord CAMPBELL hoped that his Noble and Learned Friend would outlive the passing of these Bills. Indeed his Noble Friend seemed to have nine lives, like a cat, and perhaps brought in these nine Bills tonight as the auspicious number.—(A laugh.) There was one of these Bills which he should most decidedly support, and that was the Registry Bill, which was the one of the nine with which his Noble Friend was not now prepared to go on. When he (Lord Campbell) was a Member of the other House, there was a Committee of the House of Commons to inquire into the subject, and they were almost unanimous in reporting in favour of a general register. But the object was defeated by the intrigues of the country attorneys, who were still powerful enough to obstruct the measure. When he (Lord Campbell) had the honour of being appointed Solicitor-General to his Majesty King William the Fourth, the only stiptpatioa made with him was, that he should not, for a time at least, or until the prejudice against a central register had passed away, renew his attempt to pass a Bill for that purpose. He must, observe, however, that there was a sort of poetic justice in the case. His Noble and Learned Friend had prevented him from carrying on his Bill, and now his Noble and Learned Friend , y 9 lit unable to proceed with his own. — (A laugh)st : lie A,A /S.! r 4. / - ri p 4