The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-15 00:00:00

reading, but would feel at liberty to take which course he thought fit upon the third reading. Sir T. FREMANTLE said, though he understood the Hon. Gentleman intended to support the second reading of the /dill, he was desirous at that early period of offering a few ob servations to the House, and he hopedthe House would indulge him for a short time. He could not pass by the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, for it appeared to him that the Hon. Gen tleman acted rather hastily upon his own impressions of wha the future policy of the Government with respect to Ireland would be, considering this Bill as the precursor of others which .would follow. In looking narrowly into this question be felt, after the full and able exposition given of the measure and of the views of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Adminis tration, that he bad little more to say in recommending the measure to the /louse. He wished, however, with reference to his own position and his own feelings, to state the grounds on which he entirely concurred in those views. The opposition to the proposed grant came from teo sources, one from those who opposed it entirely on religious grounds, and the other from those who opposed it on what was called the voluntary prin ciole, and those who objected to any grant of public money in aid of Church matters. In regard to the first, he confessed that he could net concur with them in thinking that this question ought to be viewed as a religious one. Undoubtedly it had been stated, and stated truly, that every act of a man's life ought to be subjected to moral and religious responsibility. But he could not see in what way religion was violated by voting for a measure of this kind. The Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hawes) had stated, and he ( Sir T. Fremantle) concurred with him, that this vote, whether it were passed, or whether it were refused, would not encourage or discourage in the slightest degree the Catholic religion in Ireland. They were dealing with a population of between six and seven millions. Was it to be supposed that whether they gave a better or a worse education to the priest of Ireland the extension of the Catholic or the Protestant reli gion would be affected one way or the other? He could not understand hew the religious question had arisen, unless it were supposed that the effect of this grant would be to in duce those who are Protestants now to become Roman Catholics. He conceived, therefore, that he was perfectly justified with reference to all religious denominations, in voting as a matter of charity—as a matter of public expedie ency—t hat this grant should be made. He conceived he was justified in doing this without reference to any religious considerations whatever. His Hon. Friend, the Member for the University of Oxford, had brought this question home in a much more intelligible way, as he said that he would not consent to give anything to penons who taught that which was erroneous in doctrine. Now, the question was, whether they could act on that principle or whether they could not? Now he did not think that his Hon. Friend himself could alto gether act upon that principle. Could he act upon that prin ciple in the situation of landlord, or guardian, or parent, or in any other relation in which he might be called upon to stand? his Hon. Friend proposed to leave a large population in Ireland without the means of religious instruction. The prin ciple which his Hon. Friend advocated had been violated in numerous instances. The statute-book contained se veral enactments in which that principle had been violated. Ist the army estimates there was a distinct vote for the pay ment of Roman Catholic chaplains. Every military hospital was furnished with a Roman Catholic chaplain, if there were a suflieient number of Roman Catholic soldiers in the regiment to require his attendance. To that he thought that the Hon. Gentleman could not object. 'fhere was no religious prin ciple violated in the measure. There was no principle of the Protestant Church violated in the vote. With re gard to that portion of the question. it had been before advocated in that House. It had been advo eated in the year ISOS by Mr. Tierney, and in language se much better than any he (Sir T. Fremantle) could make 'use of, that he could not do better than quote it. In support of the grant to Meynooth, Mr. Tierney had said that they might make the Irish Catholics bad subjects—they might make them had Catholics —they might make them bad Christians, but they could not make them Protestants, and that there was no effectual method of improving the condition of Ireland but by educating the Catholics. Mr. Grattan, who was also a most high authority on this subject, had said, in the same debate, that if they refused this grant they would be securing the ignorance of a great portion of the Roman Catholic clergy—that to secure religious conformity was impracticable, and that they would render the securing of political conformity equally impracticable if they were to refuse this vote. He concurred in these opinions, end he believed that the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend was not only justifiable in principle, but that it was absolutely just.—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend, in a former debate, had gone into the history of the system so fully, that it would be unnecessary for him (Sir Thomas Fremantle) to go over the same ground. They knew that the College of May nooth had been established by an Act of the Legislature, in 1795 ; that by another Act of the Legislature it had been re cognised, in 18 *0; and that, as late as the year 1808, another Act of Parliament had not only acknowledged its existence, but had given it a firmer settlement, and had given the trustees of that College power to take and to hold larger quantities of land than they had been enabled to hold before. In addition to this the grant had been made uninterruptedly till the present time. When they considered who had established the College it was rather too much to say that they should not continue the grant, and even extend it. All, he believed, were in favour of the principle of the grant.—(Cries of " Heat.")_ lie believed that it was not denied that the numb er of Ro man Catholics had doubled in Ireland since the Union. In 1795 the Catholic population was estimated at four millions— it was now seven millions. There was another question—the question of contract—upon which he wished to say a very few words. It was only those who wished to shrink from the performance of a contract, who would first demand its produc tion.—( Hear, bear.) But there were agreements and under takings between men and parties which ought to be more bind ing than contracts. It should be recollected that the College Maynooth was established and endowed by a Parliament which was entirely Protestant ; and it was established with the perfect understanding that the grant was to be permanent. It was also to be temembered that the Roman Catholics, since the Union, had exercised great influence upon Par liamentary questions. They had contributed to the carrying of the Reform Bill and other measures, and it could not be doubted that if the Parliament had con tinued in Ireland an enlarged grant would have been given be fore this to the Irish priesthoo d. He thought that they ought not to legislate for Ireland in an Irish sense.—( Hear, hear.) If he question touched ally great subject connected with the in terests of the empire, they then should look upon it as an im perial question, but when it did not affect the interests of this country, they ought to view it as an Irish question, and they ought to deal with it as Irish Members. In support of that argument, he might refer to the contrast between the feeling in Ireland and that in England on this matter.—( Hear, Lear.) Though the table was covered with peti tions against the grant to Maynooth from England and Scotland, those from Ireland were very few, though there ex isted a strong feeling in Ireland against Catholicism, and a fear er Catholic ascendancy. He might also allude to the petition trout one Presbyterian body in favour of the grant, which was presented by his Right Hon. Friend. If, then, there was no principle to be violated, and if it was but just that the vote should be made, it was easy to perceive that the policy which Add to it was good. The existing want of everything necessary to keep up a great establishment had been depicted to the /louse over and over again, and had net been denied by any Member. His Right Honourable Friend was perfectly correct when he stated that they gave enough to prevent voluntary con tributions, but they did not give enough to keep up an institu tion. The allowance made was so inadequate that stu dents were very frequently obliged to leave the College before they had completed their academical course. He thought that it would be well worth the expenditure of a few pounds to introduce a better feeling in the breasts of those who could not leave the College without a feeling of degrada tion. He rejoiced that this measure had been introduced by her Majesty's Government, because he did think it would be a great means of removing some of the many grievances of which the Irish people had to complain, and particularly those causes of discontent so justly existing amongst the Roman Catholics of that country.—(Cheers from the Opposition. ) It would also, he hoped, have the effect of inspiring the great majority of the people of that country with confidence in the existing tiSovernrnent—(Cheers)—for without that con- Adence it was u,eless to hope that the existing Government could he upheld.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) No doubt, it would be very easy, if the exist ie.. Government did not choose to covet this con tidence, to send military troops, and enforce courts-martial in that country. to enforce obedience to the law ; but he would contend for it that such a mode of attempting to prevent eva sions of the laws, would never be successful in enabling the ex ating Government to carry on the business of the country.— ( Hear, hear.) Thetefore, he must hold that, in order to con vince the Irish people that their confidence war sought, some such measure as this was necessary to be introduced.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) When once the people of Ireland saw that the intentions of the Government were conciliatory and honest, they would give them credit for meaning well towards them.—( Hear, hear.) But it would be unnecessary for him to follow this subject out any further. Already they saw many ,indications of improvement in Ireland. Railroad projects were *low being extensively carried on in that country; and he did live they would prove to be hut the forerunners of others still more extensive and beneficial. if topics of a' political character were not kept up as a means of preventing that union of inte xest as well as of affection which should ever exist between the awo countries. Mr. FOX MAPLE said, that he was perfectly aware that he could scarcely command the attention of the House at that hour, when more distinguished individuals were expected to address it, but lie felt that it would be necessary for him to detain them for a very short time while he explained the rea sons why he intended to vote against the second reading of this Bill. Ha thought that the Right lion. Baronet had notmade out a case for the allowance oi this grant, nor had he (Mr. F. Maule) heard from that (the Mieisterial) side of the House 61116 argument to disprove the saying of his Hon. Friend near him, that this measure had an ulterior object. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that his Hon. Friend had no right to make that supposition. He ( Nlr. F. Maule) would grant that the Right /ion. Gentleman was right in contradicting the line of argument advanced by his Hon. Frieuil, provided he had proved to the House th a t t h ose anticipations were not well grounded. But he had not chosen to give his own friends or the House the smallest hint to guide them in this case.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. F.•Nlatale) grounded his opposition to this Bill on the asset:option that this was no final measure—( Cheers)—but that there would be an ulterior course adopted which he could not and would not approve. He thought that no one could doubt, unless indee4 the Right Hon. Baronet himself w ould, that there was a strong feeling in the public mind on this subject, and that the petitions which had been presented to this House did not emanate from any syst e m of centralisa tion, but from theg eneral feeling. That'o - n t e e m which the Right Hon. Baronet had himself the other day presented wasanex c.option to the rule, but it would have b een the height of gi atitude if that petition had not been pre sente d at that f in Wh y, those parties had a Bill of their own b efore . that House last year, and the Roman Catholics coifcoiflreland had presented numerous p eti tions in their favou r . jt would then have been t h e hei g ht of in gratitude if the Dis lent," o f Scotland had not come forward to support the Heinen Catholics upon this question. He hoped that the House -veuld acquit him of all wish to discuss this question in a spirit of hostility to the Roman Catholic people of Ireland. —( Hear, hear.) He would not enter into any religious dis pute whatever. Ile thought he had a right to discuss this as a political measure of the Government ; but in doing so it was impossible to avoid come reference to the effect of the soemsure upon the religious feelings of this country._ r 11,a, hear.) He maintained that the grant to Mayneoth Iwo., not a matter of contract. Look to the origin of the vote and you would find it originated in 1793 ; and he could not help thinking from all that he saw in the paltry grant of B,oool.,that it was nothing more titan a subscription on the part of the Government, at the time when they had granted to the people of Ireland the great boon of being allowed to establish an institu tion for the education of their own clergy. It was a boon to the people, to allow them to erect places where they could aemselves educate their priesthood. That was a boon worth the Irish people's receiving. Bu t . as that paltry grant was Annt.nued since, it was only meant es a bene lialstreter iyisiTtnent, to assist the private benevolenee —lndiiU?e was not prepared to discontinu e the g rant, illt" • - t i nt r vidliitr l&:eontinuance as it now was, he held that to i aii.ka-1 10 tuuerent question from that at present before the I ' x l_elirihear..} - The question was not n ow whether -,e v idlpun the old grant, but whether the y would 4. f and permanent endowment. — ( Flear.) • f. of tto wont was even to be by an annual vote, e 4 aitsider the question the same as the mere eon divisive of di. old one. But that was a question not now before the Hannn a res te4 his position on this, that it was proposed to make an establishment for the education of the Catholic clergy of Ireland, bona fide in sonnexion with the State.—( Hear. ) Was that principle consistent with what they had done in I other cases ?—( Hear.) They had introduced also another principle into the grant by taking the Irish Catholic Church into connexion with the State, without reserving to the State any controul over the new establishment.—( Hear.) Was that the principle on which they had proceeded in other matters ? (Cheers. ) It was not—and he stood there as an example of the opposite principle.—( Hear, hear.) When he came to the House with petitions and claims of right, from the Presby terian people of Scotland, setting forth the privileges to which they considered themselves entitled by ancient statutes, and by the articles of union—when he claimed that they should have in the Scotch Church the management of their own spiritual welfare and should not be interfered with by the State—he was told by Gentlemen who supported the measure now, that the claim was monstrous and incocsistent to have a Church in connexion with the State, over which the State should have no control. That was the case with the Scotch Church ; and four hundred of her most active ministers, and nearly a million of her most faithful people were driven from her pale. —(Hear, hear.) How then could Gentlemen opposite come forward now to ask him, a member of the Free Church of Scotland, to support them, on public grounds, in a measure for placing the Roman Catholics in connexion with the State in respect to en dowment, not under the control of the State ?—(Cheers.) If they were right in this case, how unjust had they been in the case of the Scotch Church ?—( Hear.) If they were right in that case, how could they turn round now, and take the oppo site course ?—( Hear, hear.) He understood the course of the Government as little as he understood the advice of the Right Honourable Baronet opposite to Irish landlords— advice, however, in which he (Mr. Fox Maule) concurred—to give sites for the buildiag of houses of worship, and of schools, and to assist their tenantry in the education of their clergy? Was it the intention of the Right Honourable Baronet to ad vise a member of his own Cabinet, sitting in the other house, to act in the same spirit towards his poor tenantry in Scotland ? —,Cheers.) Was it the intention of the Right Honourable Baronet to remonstrate with that Member of his own Govern ment far refusing his poor tenants a site for building a place of meeting, for which they were willing to pay, or to allow them even to assemble on a corner of the old moor—so that they were compelled to meet for prayer upon the Sabbath at the place where three reads met ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The name was familiar to the Right Honourable Baronet.—( Hear, hear. ) But it was said that the Parliament ought to take compassion upon Irish poverty. fie did not know that. They were told that there were eight millions of Roman Catholics in Ireland ; and he did not think that they aught to be behind hand with the seven or eight hundred thousand Presbyterians of the Free Church of Scotland, who were thrown upon their own resources, and in the last two years had erected six hun dred chapels, and had raised a sum of 600,000/. for various ecclesiastical purposes.—( Hear, hear.) No one would say that the members of the Free Church were of the richer class in Scotland, on the contrary they were of the poorer. Now he believed that no people held their religion more dear than the Catholics of Ireland, and he would say to them, " instead of coming here for this endowment, you should follow the ex ample of the Scotch Presbyterians, and we will assist you, by repealing still further the Mortmain Act—and then you will be far more respected in this country than by coming here for an endowment."—(Hear. hear.) But they had heard a very extraordinary statement as to the condition of the Col lege, which they were told was so wretched as to call for legislative relief. But, last year, a counts yman of his went over to Alaynooth, and visited the College ; and he has published his opinion of its condition and arrangements—he meant Mr. James Grant. That gentleman described the situa tion of the place and its nature, and then went on to describe the interior. He said that all the arrangments were excellent, and well adapted to the purposes of such an institution. The young men were well fed, comfortably lodged, and cleanly clad. Mr. SHEIL—Oh ! that was a Scotchman's account.— (Immense laughter. ) Mr. F. MAULE—It was the opinion of a Scotchman who was very hospitably received, and had every opportunity of judging of what he described.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Grant did not write like one who was actuated by a hostile spirit.— But from his description of the condition of the student, it seemed questionable that the statements the House had re ceived the other night were not in some degree overcharged.— ( Hear, hear.) With regard to the conciliation of this measure, he would say, that only two years ago, the Right Hon. Baronet told the House that conciliation had reached its ut most limits towards Ireland.—(Cheers.) This was one of the concessions which always came from the Right Hon. Baronet's party—and which always came toe late.—( Cheers ) Mr. O'Connell denied the conciliation, and thanked them for no more than the posses ion.—( Hear, hear.) He said that he would go on with agitation until he got all that he wanted.—(Hear.) If they wished to conciliate, they ought to have done so in some way that would not excite the religious feelings of the people of this country. —(Hear. ) For his part he was disposed to do justice to Ireland in the fullest sense of the word. But he would ask, was there no op portunity of doing so in matters in which the people of Eng land might have looked on as impartial judges in their poli tical character?—(Cheers.) Was there no franchise in which concession to Ireland would create no religious rancour in England ?—(Cheers. ) What became of the zeal of the Right Hon. Baronet, when he passed over the franchise, which they might have proposed to equalise ' and in which he, for one, would assist them with a liberal hand ?—(Cheers.) There were ether questions on which they could have laid their hands without violation to any religious feeling.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the Right Hon. Baronet could not allow this debate to close without stating explicitly whether the measure was intended as a prelude to the endowment of the Catholic clergy as a body.— (Cheers.) He could not under stand how, after their conduct on the question of the Church of Scotland, they could propose to endow the Church of a different religion in a neighbouring country, and exclude the interference of the State. That would be an act of injustice to the whole body of the Dissenters in this country. For his part, he had always opposed the principle, and although he was a member of the Church of Scotland, and was a friend to Church extension, when Dr. Chalmers, ten years ago (in 1835), was making great efforts for that object, he at that time opposed a public grant, on the grounds of his present opposition to the measure before the House—( Hear, and cheers) and whether from such an accidental union as that of the Right Hon. Member for Oxford, or from any other motive, he could succeed in stopping this Bill, he knew not. But this he knew, that the proposal would not allay agi tation in Ireland, whilst it had raised up an agitation in Eng land to feelings of bitterness which it would take no small time to allay.—(Cheers. ) A great number of Members rcse at once to speak, amidst great laughter, and it took the Speaker some seconds lo decide that his eye had first been caught by Lord CASTLEREAGH, who said that as he was desirous of addressing the House upon this question, he was glad to rise after his Hon. Friend the Member for Perth, to whom he was extremely sorry he should be opposed ; although he must also say that he was not so opposed to his Hon. Friend in any spirit of party.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend had alluded to a petition which had been presented in favour of the Bill from a body of Presbyterians in his (Lord Castlereagh's) county, and he (Lord Castlereagh) was glad to have an opportunity of bear ing testimony to their high religious character and liberality. With reference to the question, the House or the country had noright to declaim for being taken by surprise. He (Lord Castlereagh) and his friends were prepared for some great measure being proposed for Ireland, and it was his astonish ment to find that this, the first one, was so exceedingly trifling. They had discussed this grant for fifty years. For fifty years it had been the unceasing cause of squabble and noise, and they had come down to the House with various feelings, but the great feeling that prevailed was, that the Irish people never thanked them for their parsimony; they gave them 9,0001., but they gave it to them gradually, and they did not thank them. He was glad that the first thing done in this measure was the setting at rest the question of whether the grant was to be continued or not. When that was the question, he voted against the grant, but not against his Catholic fellow countrymen, for Heaven knew that the first time he spoke in that House, he addressed it in the cause of his Roman Catholic fellow countrymen. He did not see what harm the emancipation had done them, or how it led to agitation. He was not one of those who believed that repeal was a re ligious question. Whether they had already reaped the fruits of that measure or not—and he was of opinion that they had— they would yet know that the boon they had given to the Irish could not be forgotten, and, sooner or later, they would reap sufficient advantage. The people of England were peculiarly jealous upon the subject of what he might call the "No Popery" ciy. The petitions presented to Parliament would show the feeling of the people ; but he thought it was the duty of the Government, under such circumstances, to temper the feeling, and to lay a broad foundation of justice, whereon to build a superstructure of good government.—( Cheers.) They should not yield to the pressure without; if they did, they would have yielded long ago to the Anti-Corn-law League; nor would they have re,isted the repeal agitation, which, he was sorry his fellow-countrymen paid too much attention to. It was the duty of the Minister to temper such a feeling without laying aside his own intention, and a good intention of carrying, out a beneficial measure. Honourable Members were pursuing a consistent course in opposing everything like concession to the Roman Catholics—they were afraid of Popery. He (Lord Castlereagh) thought that the experience of twenty years, and the information received from those who would bring forward their conscientious opinions in a Court of Justice, would have removed such prejuciices.--( Hear.) He and his colleague received a requisition, si g ned by several young gentleme n o f property in the county of Down, which he had the honour to represent. It was signed by many of his earliest and best friends, who entreated himself and his colleague to give oppo sition to the Bill of the Hon. Baronet. A letter from a friend of his characterised the measure as one calculated to bring down national judgments upon them. He, however, had a duty to perform, irrespective of his constituents, and if they thought he acted wrong they could visit him with the conse quences of their displeasure. He deeply regretted this agita tion which had sprung up in England, at the head of which were many great names. He saw Exeter Hall again in the throes of childbirth—( Laughter) —and he saw placards and processions parading the streets because they were going to give a few pounds, as his Hon. Friend had said ; but he would say a sufficiently increased grant to the institution of Maynooth. He was not going to enter into a theolo gical discussion concerning the doctrines that were taught at Maynooth. He was not a Guy Fawkes or a Peter Dens ; but he would say that this grant was liberally proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, who was not slightly abused or criticised in that House for the measure which he had the manliness to bring forward. When he first saw the flirtation between the Hon. Member for Oxford, the representative of the chivalry of his party and the beauty of Young England, he did not think that such an alliance would produce fruit—he was of opinion that it would be a spawn.—( Laughter.) He regretted to hear the caustic and sarcastic remarks of the Hon. Member fur Shrews bury, who he was sorry was not now in his place. He re gretted to perceive that his talents were used on the wrong side; he wished that he was raising his banner cry for, instead of against, them. In contradiction to the lion. Gentleman he should say that they owed Catholic Emancipation to the Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, and to his coadjutor in the House of Lords. He regretted to hear the im putations which were cast en the Right Hon. Baronet, and he could not help thinking that there was some remembrance, for Dubl in in his some deep sorrow hovering over the mind of the Hon. Gentle man , w h en h e l oo k e d a b out an d did not see t h e M em b er o place. It had been said by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury that h e s h ou ld not h ave oppose d t hi s gran t if it was brought in by the Members opposite. There was always an ne ; i o n , io er n n , me w n h t et w he e r re rig m h o t re or or wrleosnsg, under that Lo th rd e . Castlereagh) did not think dictation cr subservient to tha A t l t r h . e C O h 'C ap o e n i n e elb. isse H n e ter ( s L ß or il d l would have been carried but for Mr. O'Cll —( Hear, hear. ) Ho (Mr. D'l srae li) said ! v at he looked onne with distrust at any measure comi ng f rom the Gt eminent, as they were not the people to give it, and he for o ne (Lord Castlereagh' s ) t e lli ng should oppose it. H e could not, therefore, wond er a t hi s ( him that he should be rather jealou s o f any measure coming from the other side of the House, for he should not believe that it was through a spirit of conciliati on or concession that it would be introduced, but under the dictatio n of i Air. O'Connell and his party. He was sorry for detir ithe House so long, but he thought it necessary, as an Irishlki her, to address the House in approval of the measure, and he hoped and trusted that the [tight Hon. Gentleman would go on in the career which he had adopted—( Hear, hear)—and if by the dictation of any party he should be left in a minority, b e felt convinced that he could assure them that there would be found many by his side who would cheer him and share his fall ; and who would suppmt his measures whether he was on this side of the House or the other. He would conclude by referring to a sentence in a pamphlet, written by a gentleman in that Huse, which contained much better language than he could express, and which said that it would be very sanguine to ex pect that Ireland should be incorporated in feeling or in laws with the rest of the empire, until they had laid a foundation broad and deep on which a superstructure of conciliation and a union .f genuine cordial feeling should be built. A Minister I who would attempt that would be conscious of the great duty which he had performed, and would enjoy the sympathy of all that was wise and good, and his memory would be at tended with that favour which crowns the benefactor of his country.—( Cheers.) The O'CONOR DON said, that so cordially; did he agree with the observations which came from the Noble Lord who hal just sat down, that he brought down the pamphlet referred to for the purpose of quoting the same language. It was said by an Hon. Member that he whiled that this should be dealt with as an Irish question. If it were to be considered as an Irish question, he believed that an immense majority of the Irish people would be found to vote in accordance with the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet. He was anxious to rise to answer a question proposed by the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury, who called upon them to repudiate the mea sure proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. He (the O'Conor Don), for one, was disposed to accept cordially the proposition, feeling, as he did, that it was one involving in itself the educa tion of a portion of the Irish people, and enhanced as it was in value by the manner in which it was introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet. He said that it was to be received in three ways : it was turned by the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury into that ridicule and sarcasm with which, in his opi nion, he was too conversant, but he did not for one moment venture to grapple with the arguments made use of. He frequently said " this is the question," but the question it self he totally avoided. The question was this, what was to be done with Maynooth? Was the grant to be discontinued, was it to be continued as it then was, or was it to he in creased? Could it be discontinued under present circumstances, and the state of feeling in Ireland, where there existed so much dissatisfaction? Where was the Government that would not remove one more element of dissatisfaction?—(Cheers. ) There could no doubt exist in the mind of any one as to the success of this measure. Was there any principle against the grant ? If there were, in what did it consist ? It appeared that the principle was against that which would be sufficient— namely, 25,0001., but there was no principle violated in grant ing 9,0001. The principle in both cases was the same, in his opinion. In 1808, there was an increase proposed by a Pro testant Parliament, and yet no person accused them of yielding one principle which involved the principles of the Protestant Church. It was a principle recognized in all the colonies—in every one of them—(Hear, hear)—and was that princi ple to be objected to now in a case where Irelandwas to be con cerned ?—( Cheers.) The interests of Ireland were as inti mately connected with this country, as the interests which were more distant. As it was already thought advisable that that grant should be continued in Ireland, so ought sufficient be granted for the purposes for which it was made. The question was, whether the professors received an amount ade quate to their instructions, sufficient to induce them to spend the whole of their lives in teaching for the sum of 93/. a year. There was one reason put forth for opposing it, which was the principle of those who would object to all establishments what ever. How was it that their indignation was only called forth when Ireland was brought under their consideration ? When it was proposed to give anything to Ireland, then came forth that which would, at the other side of the water, be considered an anti-Irish feeling—(Hear, hear)—and which he regretted because he wished to see both countries on the best terms. He thought that it ought not to be considered an ecclesiastical en dowment, but an educational endowment. It ought not to be considered as a junction with the State, for he believed that a great many Irish Roman Catholics would object to it, bat they would not object to a grant tothat College which would enable the members of that College to discharge the duties they had to per form with advantage to the country. The Member for Newcastle objected seemingly to the grant on the ground that the profes sors were incompetent to teach, and that they were men of no education. He instanced the evidence of Dr. Cullen, to the effect that he did not know of the existence of the sixth book of Euclid. Euclid was not the book taught at Maynooth, but there was a system used there of the science as it was taught by the Abbe Dare, and which was laid down by French mathematicians of the highest eminence. The substance of his (the O'Conor Den's) information was to the effect, that this man so vilified, so misrepre sented, so stigmatized, and branded as ignorant, was one of the most distingui-lied men in the literary and scientific world in this day. He was eminent by his researches in the phenomena of galvanism and electricity. and his name was widely known and appreciated. The Hon. Member for Newcastle had referred to the communications which had passed between the Court of Rome and the Irish Catholic ecclesiastics. He (the O'Conor Don) might be al lowed to make one short' observation upon that subject. He would merely say that those bulls, no matter how numerous they were, were of no validity in temporal or civil matters ; and he would, with the permission of the House, exemplify this very shortly. When this country was threatened by the Court of Spain, and the formidable Armada was ap proaching its shores, then, notwithstanding the bulls promulgated by the Pope, the Roman Catholics in this country offered to serve in the foremost ranks, for her whom they declared to be their rightful and beloved Queen. The subjects of Ireland could not be loyal to her Majesty without, at the same time, bein g loyal to her sub jects. It was said that her M a j es t y intended to visit Ireland this year. He hoped it might be so. Englishmen had the advantage of her residence among them. Scotland had been honoured by her visits; and now he trusted that Ireland would be similarly honoured, and certain he was that there she wou'd be enthusiastically welcomed. Some Hon. Gentleman had said that they post poned Catholic questions until their boons were valueless, for the grants had become a necessity, and the same Hon. Members again came forward and questioned the Right Hon. Baronet in such a guise that it was quite impossible for him to answer them. The questions answered themselves. He was glad, however, to find that, on his side of the House, the Noble Lord the Member for London (Lord John Russell), forgetful of his pary feeling, and, on the other side, the Right Honourable Baronet, both concurring in carrying out this measure of justice towards Ireland. He would give his cordial support to the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet. Mr. LEFROY would give his vote against the second read ing of this measure, and he was anxious to do so in a manner the least calculated to give offence to the Right Hon. Baronet, or to any other Hon. Member. He was the more anxious to explain his reasons, as on this question he should be opposing a Ministry whose general line of policy he hail supported. He gave full credit to the Right Hon. Baronet for his desire to ad vance the best interests of the country, but in this case he thought he was opposed to the generally expressed opinion of the entire country.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The argument advanced by the Right Hon. Baronet seemed to him (Mr. Lefroy) particularly strange. Ho argued that, be cause the present system worked badly in the College of May nooth, they should try what the mere effect of pounds, shil lings, and pence could do. He (Mr. Lefroy) objected to this grant on two grounds ; the first, because it interfered with the theory and practice of their present Constitution ; and he objected to it on a religious ground, although he did not mean to discuss this as a religious question. He would put it to any man whether this grant to a Roman Catholic church was not against both the spirit and the letter of the Protestant Constitution? Whether it was not an express violation of the declaration signed by the Sovereign of these realms ? The Hon. Member for Newark had spoken very plausibly in favour of this measure. The Right Hon Gentleman had re corded his opinions upon the same subject, and it was but fair that the Members of that House should compare the two opi nions. ( The Hon. Member then quoted from Mr. Gladstone's pamphlet, in which he strongly objected to the grant to Maynooth.) He should oppose the second reading of this measure. Col. T. WOOD said that he perfectly concurred in the propriety of the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Baro net, and he would state the grounds on which he intended to vote for it. The Hen. Member who had last spoken, had founded his opposition upon a religious principle. But he did not agree with Hon. Members that this measure would be an invasion of the rights of the Church of England. Let it be recollected that, by the Emancipation Act, every subject of the kingdom, to whatever creed belonging, was placed on terms of equality with his fellow man, in regard to the enjoyment of civil rights.—(llear, hear.) It was true that that measure made an exception in favour of the Pro testant religion, so far as the succession to the English Crown ; but, while the English monarch would be certain to uphold the dignity of the English Crown, the civil rights of the subjects should not be lost sight of.—( Hear, hear.) It wa., upon those grounds that he felt disposed to give his vote in favour of the measure.—(Cheers.) He would also give his vote in favour of it, because he did think the Government of this country were bound to provide a suitable education eut of the revenues of the State for the Irish people.—(Cheers.) Let it be recollected that the Roman Catholic priests were the instructors of the Roman Catholic people of Ireland; that the people were necessarily thrown upon their clergy for advice and cowls:4, when they had none else to look to in a country long known as suffering front an absentee proprietary.— (Cheers.) In addition to this, let it be also borne in mind that hitherto the Catholic people of Ireland not only supported their own clergy, but were compelled by law to support the ministers of a religion which was not the religion of the ma jority of the Irish people.—(Cheers.) He would contend for it th.t this was a measure of justice that should of necessity have followed a measure of last session—he meant the Catholic Bequests Act, and one which would tend more to promote the peace and welfare of Ireland, than any ether measure that could possibly be introduced.—( Hear, hear.) He would sup port this measure because it showed that some real attention was devoted to the state of Ireland by the Government since they came into office ; and it should be admitted that the state of that country for the past two years was unparalleled in the history of civilization. He regretted that the Roman Catholic priests should have taken part in the great political movement to which he alluded ; but he did not mean to say it was the speeches delivered at their meetings, so much as the whole movement itself that made ar. impression upon the minds of the people.— ( Hear, hear.) Now he would ask the house, in what manner would they be prepared to meet the agitation again, should it be renewed? Were they prepared to meet it by coercion and martial law, or by means of conciliation ?--( Hear, hear.) He would say they should meet it by conciliation alone ; ter if they tried coercion, and succeeded by that in promoting a temporary peace, still they would find at the end that conciliation alone would do.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) lie felt pain at being compelled to differ upon this question from many for whom he entertained the highest esteem ; but still he would say that if it had the effect of conciliating Ireland he would not regret it.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) If this measure should have the effect of invalidating the claims or stability of the E,tablished Church in Ireland, he would rather resign his seat into the hands of those who had honoured him with their confidence, than vote for it ; but he could not see how the en dowment by the State of the Roman Catholic Church in Ire land could have such an effeet.—( Loud cheers.) In fact, Ireland was the only part of the world in which it was found that two Churches of opposite creeds could not exist in harmony and peace with each other.—( Hear.) Might they, then, not hope that the time was not far distant when they should see as happy a state of things in Ireland, and was it not the duty of the State to endeavour to achieve it ?—( Cheers from the Opposition.) It had been said that by this measure the Government would be only arming the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland with new weapons against, the Proteitant Church ; let them rather hope those clergymen would use tilt-it newly-acquired power in furtherance of renewed efforts at the suppression of crime and vice.—( Loud cheers.) The Ho nourable Member then sat down, whereupon, as upon every similar occasion during the evening, at least twenty Members rose at once, each endeavouring to catch the Speaker's eye, but Sir C. NAPIER having succeeded, he said he would not have presumed to have taken any part in the discussion this evening, but that he wished to set himself right with his con stituents, under all the circumstances, for giving his vote in favour of this measure.—( Hear, hear. ) He regretted that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Sheffield, had not deemed it expedient to persevere with his motion, and take a clear vote of the House upon it, for he knew many Hon. Members who would have supported him, in epposition to what they conceived to be an obnoxious measure. However, he had perhaps, after all, acted a discreet part in postponing it ; and when he ivoul C. not Na did bring it forward, he (Sir C. Napier) hoped to see him do than permitpiet h t so in a wa y th at wou ld not esuse t h e mot i on t o b e th row n out altogether. He (Sir u t ld of his fai a lur o e, f also himf tn brine regrettedA forward tn that be r f the o a more mode ra t e amendment forma o f the House r Sheffield, i n t h e eve n th n e r, ti i Hon. they did, he .e be an instruction to the Committee, in any Protestant parish would move th a t it should in Ireland where it should appear that there were only tour, or less than four, Protestants, that all the income and emoluments arising from such parishes should be applied to a fund for the maintenance Catholic College of May noot h—( Hear, av ) o f the However,Rom a n if the Honourable Member for Sheffield should not THE S UN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 15, 1845.' succeed in carrying his motion, thin he (Sir Charles Napier) would support the measure• of the Government.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He felt that in doing this he would be giving offence to a great number of his constituency, who felt very strongly on this question; but notwithstanding that, he would ever go straightforward in the support. of every measure that he considered just, and fair, and reasonable.—( Cheers.) When he considered the present state of Ireland (though, at present, there was no need to ap prehend a war with America), yet, he would ask, was this just the time to throw a firebrand into that country ?—( Hear.) Since this measure had first been talked of as one that was in tended to be brought forward by the Government—whether wisely or not, was not fur him now to question—he would say that it had been looked forward to with so much anxiety, that the rejection of it now would have the effect of placing Ireland in a worse position than ever.—( Hear, hoar.) He did con ceive that this country was bound by every tie to conciliate the Irish people. He was not the man to encourage Continental Catholic countries to excite Catholic Ireland against Protestant England—( Hear)—but he would ask, would it not be wise not to give the Irish people any excuse for joining any other country against this?—(Hear, hear.) He had heard much from the Hon. Member for Oxford that he regret ed to have heard ; but he would recommend that Hon. Member to deliberate well upon the course he was pursuing, because Ire land, in time of peace, was not to be quieted but by kindnese and conciliation, and if she were not conciliated, in time of war she might become dangerous.—( Hear, hear.) He 1-nigh' be told that it would be folly to attempt to invade Ireland ; but those who said so might be mistaken. He had heard of the French Government sendirg out enormous vessels to all parts of the world; and let it not be forgotten that Ireland would at one time have been successfully invaded under Napoleon but for the disobedience of his admirals. He saw, by a French paper he had received to-day, that several enormous ships had been built in that country, intended for foreign stations; but not having answered the purpose, they were about to be converted into steam war vessels, each containing 2,000 men, and well cal culated for the service for which they were intended.—( Hear, hear.) On those grounds, then, he would say, make Ireland happy and contented, and he would defy the world to pro duce more brave and loyal subjects.—(Cheers.) If they were treated in a contrary spirit, then it was impossible to say what might be the result. Nothing was more likely than that a foreign Catholic nation should be roused against England ; and then if the Catholic people of Ireland, or a great portion of them should join that country, see what a position England would be in by having her best subjects severed from her by in justice and discontent.—(Cheers.) The proposition of the Government was no new question. The Legislature had already established the precedent for voting a portion of the public money to the education of Roman Catholic priests, and, therefore, it was only carrying out that principle to increase the amount.--( Hear.) He was surprised to hear the Hon. Member for Oxford argue against this, for surely, if men were well educated, it would be much more easy for them to see into the true lights of the Gospel, than if they were badly educated.—( Cheers. ) This country had been trying for the last three hundred years to make Ireland a Protestant nation—(Cheers)—and as they had not succeeded, now let them try to conciliate them by making them better Catholics. —(Cheers.) He did think that this was the first step towards an act of justice towards the Irish people, and coming from an opposition Government, call it what they would, Conserva tive or Tory, he was glad to see it. It did them great credit, and he would give it his strongest and warmest support. Mr. S. O'BRIEN then ixise to address the House. The question of the Endowment of the Irish Church could not ewe be passed by ; it must now be stated in what manner the Catholic clergy were to be paid, and from what fund. As an isolated question, he considered the present measure anything but a boon. The worst kind of education was that which taught its pupils that which could do them no good. From what had already taken place, he could only consider the present as part of a great measure. There was no one more anxious to act straightforward than himself. He believed that th, Noble Lord the Member for London, if he had brought for ward this measure, he would have been justified in doing so, and would not have violated any principle he had hitherto pro. fessed ; but could that be said of the Right Hon. Baronet?— ( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark had stated that England and Scotland were against the mea sure. He might with equal truth have stated that the province of Ulster was also against it. —(Hear. ) For his own part, he must confers, after giving the measure the best consideration in his power, he could not glee his consent to it. He would ask this question, suppening the Noble Lord, the Member for London, sitting on that side of the House, had brought for ward the measure, would it have received the sanction of that House? and would those who now sit. on the Ministerial benches, if they had supported it, at a new election have come back with the majority they now had ?—(Cheers. ) He found in the course that the Right Hon. Member far Newark had pursued, a warrant for the course he felt bound to adopt; he believed that the reasons that had been urged 1 in favour of the Bill were extremely erroneous, and not at all calcu'ated to carry it into effect. They might disguise it as they would, but there was an allegiance in the Catholic priests to a Foreign Tower, that would ultimately be dangerous to this country. He did not blame the Govern ment for bringing forward this measure, he did not blame the Right Hon. Baronet for its introduction, nor did he think he was to be charged with inconsistency in bringing it forward ; he, however, could not give his support to a measure which he considered tended to shake confidence in public men.--( Hear.) He believed that upon this subject there was out of doors a general distrust of that House, which he would be the last party to lend himself to increase. For these reasons he could not support the motion. At least twenty Members rose to address the House, but the Speaker called upon Mr. WYNNE, who said that the Hon. Member for Nor thampton had alluded to the names Whig and Tory, contend ing that the principles of each party had changed of late years. Now he was one who had never assumed the name of Tory. If he had done so, he should say that the course of events of the lard forty or fifty years, during which he had been in Parliament, had been sufficient to convince him that that party had been mistaken.—(Cheers.) He had seen the Whigs moving the repeal of the Septennial Act, and the Tories resisting it. He had seen on the occasion of the Regency Bill the Tories main, taining the right of that House to provide absolutely for the care of the Government, and the Whigs, on the other hand, contending for the right of the heir apparent to do so. It had been said that this Bill. which was before the House, was in , consistent with the course which had hitherto been adopted by the Tory party. Was it not consistent with the course adopted by the Right Hon. Gentleman in that House? Was it not consistent with the course adopted during the whole of his po litical life by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) . who sat near him? Was it not consistent with the course adopted by the Noble Lord who had lately left that House ( Lord Stanley) ? With respect to himself (Mr. Wynne) he was proud to say, that. during the forty or fifty years which he had had a seat in Parliament, he had uniformly supported mea sures of this character.—(Cheers.) He remembered when this question was first debated in that House, in 1807 or 1803, that the gra nt to the Colle g e of Maynooth was supported with the view of drawing close the connexion of this country with Ireland. At that time they knew that ' Bounaparte had tried, by every temptation, to induce the Ca tholic priests to go over to France. He offered to found schools and institutions for them, but the off er was re f use d , and refused most faithfully and geeerously. He should mention that he had been much surprised at hearing, through this de bate, Mr. Burke quoted as an authority against such a measure as this, which had been proposed by the present Government. Only two sentences had been quoted, from the opinions of Mr. Burke, in proof of Mr. Burke s opinions being against the grant to Maynooth. Instead of these two sentences he (Mr. Wynne) would have referred to the bulk of Mr. Burke's writings, for there it would have been found that the institu tion of Maynoooth was one which had been strongly supported by that great man —( Hear, hear.) Pic i ( M v r. Wynne) recollected that Lord Fitz 'll.lam, when Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, recommended from the throne the endowment of Maynooth ; and his successor, Lord Camden, dwelt, in his speech at the close of the session, on the fact of his having laid the foundation of the College, He dwelt upon this fact not as having laid the foundation-stone, by merely smearing the stone over with mortar, but as showing a dispo sition, on the part of the Government, to support and cherish such an institution. The same view was taken up by the party of nn' the cou n t ry fif ty years to which the Hon. Gentlem an ( Mr. O'Br ien) belonged ; by he (Mr. Wyn n ) did n Mr. Pitt, by Lord Castlereagh , and b y Lo rd Cornwallis. Mr. Pitt had stated in that House , t hat the es tablishment of May. nooth would be the means of uniti ng the two coun tries.t o look ln to what considering was the , ago, but what was the interest of the co untry at the present time. He felt that this Bill w ould conf er great benefit upon . the country to which it was intended t o apply. This Bill th iisnte question, would, to a certain extent, do away with the voluntary system, and on that ground he supuertod it. The effect of the volun tary system was to make the priests the followers instead of the leaders of the people. Where a priest was supported by the contribution from the parish, there would be a streng temptation for him not to run counter to the wishes of' the , parishioners. He remembered the case of a p-iest who, having denounced from the altar certain parties who were the . leaders of some public disturbance, was deprived of his usual contributions. He (Mr. Wynne) thought that his Right Hon. Friend was entitled to great credit for the manly and courageous manner in which he had brought forward this measure, and he hoped, and had the fullest confidence, that he would carry it to a successful termination. —( Cheers. ) Mr. COWPER, who was very indistinctly heard in the gal lery, said he was anxious to state the grounds on which he sup ported this meastre. He thought that all the objections which hid been urged to it had centred in religious grounds. He thought that any other objection which might be urged was hardly worth debating, and he was confirmed in this view by the speech of the Hon.:Member for Newcastle (Mr. Colquhoun). He (Mr. Cow per) agreed both with the Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford arid the Hon. Member for Kent, in their opinion= with respect to Protestantism. But, although he agreed with a great portion of their premises, he could not come to the same conclusion which they had done. He believed that the greatest possible blessing hail flowed on this country from Protestantism, and nothing wou'd grieve him more than that Protestantism should be endangered. Protestantism gave the right of private judgment, allowed the supremacy of individual conscience, and toleration for those who differed from it.. Still he did not think that the present Bill would affect the pt inciples of Pro • testantism. The ground upon which the Hon. Baronet the Mem ber for Oxford resisted this Bill was that we ought not to vote any money in support of religious opinions . which we he believed to be erroneous.—( Hear, hear. ) • There were, indeed, Acts of Parliament to be found in the time of Henry VIII., Edward VI., and Elizabeth, in which . one religion was called false and another true ; and if, as was stated in an Act of Parliament in the reign of Queen Mary, the present measure stated that this grant to Maynooth was given for the maintenance of teaching of truth, he would in that case resist it to the utmost—he would rather peril his life than vote for it.—( Hear, hear.) But as th is measure did not state th a t it was to suppert the truth that the , grant was to be given, and as there was nothing in the Bill to show that the doctrines taught at Maynooth were erroneous, there was no reason to prevent him from voting for it. Another argument urged against tse measure was that it was a violation of the conscience of Protestants to contribute money to maintain what was considered error by , them ; but it was not altogether true that Protestants paid the money, for Roman Catholics as well as Protenants contributed to the consolidated fund. Besides he thought the Protestant. of England owed some compensation to the Roman Catholics of Ireland for the manner in which they treated their religion. , It ought not to be forgotten in those discussions that they never , made any selions efforts to convert the Irish Roman Catholics, for they never preached the Gospel to them in their native tongue. And Dr. King, Archbishop of Dublin, protested in convocation against the conduct of parliament on this ground. He did not think it would be much service to Protestanism that it adopted the present mode of resisting this grant. He thought that Protestants ought rather to con fine themselves to argument and' persuasion, and not interfere with a measure which was calculated to do justice to Ire land.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. GREGORY did not think that the present measure had been discussed as fully as one of such importance demanded. He wished Hen. Gentlemen would dismiss theoretical views from their consideration, and look at the present measure, not in an absolute, but a relative, print of view, and to the effects which were likely to arise from it. He thought that the pre sent measure, like the Dissenters' Chapels Bill and the Cheri table Bequests Act, would have the effect of still more weaken ing the Protestant establishment in that country.—( Hear, hear.) He doubted whether the measure would have the result which was anticipated from it, of smoothing the angry feelings of the Roman Catholics of Ire land towards this country. He did. believe that, as the human mind became more elevated by 4duca s tivii, it also became less ardent and aspiring. He did not think that, when the Roman Catholic priesthood were better educated, they would b' more likely to give their acquiescence to the possession of half a mil- 1 lion by the Protestant clergy, while they themselves got no thing. He expected to hear from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark (Mr. Gladstone) some powerful argu ments on this subject, but though he 'gave him credit for the motives which actuated him, he confessed he was disappointed at the result of his speech. He was afraid that, if this mea sure passed, others still more alarming would follow ; and if so, he believed that the nolumus episcopari of the Irish Roman Catholic clergy would be converted, by an easy alteration, into volumus episcopari.—( Hear, hear. ) If they endowed Maynooth, all the Dissenters of the country would have equal claims upon their liberality. They had east aside the principle, and could only refuse them on the shifting grounds of expediency. But the Right Hon. Baronet should bring forward proofs that the present measure was expedient, and then he was bound to show that the argument of ex pediency was a justifiable one. The Right Honourable Baronet should also clearly define the length to which he meant to go in concessions of this nature—whether the 11Iaynooth grant was to stand alone or be accompanied by other such concessions. After the manner in which the measure had been received by Mr. O'Connell. the organ of the people of Ireland, he could not wonder that the people of England were displeased at. it. That Hon. Gen • denten said it had been extorted by agitation, and as long as the Established Church remained in Ireland, there would be no cessation of that agitation. The Protestants abstained from agitating repeal solely bemuse of their love of the Established Church ; but if once this bulwark were overthrown, English sway over Ireland would be uncertain and precarious. The Hon. Member concluded by saying he would oppose the measure. Mr. MACAULAY rose and said—Sir, I have no intention to follow the Hon. Gentleman who last sat down into the dis cussion of an amendment which really has nothing to do with the subject under the consideration of the House.—( Hear. ) Whenever my Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield thinks it expedient to propose to us his motion on the subject which he has so often introduced to the notice of the House, I may per haps require the indulgence of the House whilst I offer my opi nions. At present it is sufficient for me to explain my vote on the second reading of this Bill, and I think I cannot do better than to review, as rapidly as I can, the objections which have been urged in and out of this House against them. I think these objections for the greater part may be ranged under three distinct classes. In the first place, a large body of persons who it would seem did not until now object to the grant to Maynooth, object to the proposed increase., There is a second class, a large and re spectable body, who object to any grant whatsoever. They op pose the grant as well as the increase. They conceive that we are not justified as individuals or a Government in supporting the Bill. I must say that my opinion is, that they who voted for the grant of 9,0101., are hound to vote for the higher grant of 26,000/., and I shall be surprised, though it may not he in keeping with Parliamentary tactics, that those who vote for the 9,000/. this year should vote against it next. To the principle of any public erant I do most decidedly object, but I cannot understand on what principle they act who, while voting for the 9,000/., object to any increase of that grant for the sake of rectifying the errors of which they complain. They may object to the claim of the Catholic Church, as be ing a Church teaching a system of error, but I cannot understand how they can object to an increase of the grant which Parliament has yearly voted for the imperfect development of a principle which that same Parliament has year by year allowed and advocated. You rimy condemn that establishment as teaching errors, but if you have once voted for its support, you cannot at least condemn its rites as superstitious.—( Hear, hear.) You may shrink from upholding Maynooth in all its ancient splendour, but if you do so, you are at least blend to provide it with the means of carrying that splendour into effective exercise.—( Hear, hear. ) You must not give to the able and effective minister of truth, that which you would be ashamed to offer to your groom. You are now called upon to make a grant which is worse than that which you give to the Irish common soldier. You expect to have your homestead calm, and yet you are anxious that the pigs should rejoice in their stye. If you do really desire to do good to the Catholic Church, why not do so effectually—why question the propriety of giving 26,0001. when you have al ready given 9,000/. for the same object ? If you are to sup port the Raman Catholic establishment respectably, at least give them the means of obtaining that respectability without, b 'ins dependent on your will or the caprice of a Government, and if the matter is important, it is worthy of immediate and instant consideration. Do you expect that a religion like this is to be counted as a matter of course? Do you think that this is to move as a matter of course? Do you think that thishigh and holy work is t. be promoted as a matter of duty—the cultivation of this 20,000 individuals? You have your noble cathedrals and lofty windows, your stained glass and all your affluent appliances, to make your religion honour able at present, and useful for the future. I have no desire to restrict the principleof endowing established communities, and therefore it is that I support a Bill which, like this, is most likely to secure the weltare of the lower classes. It is well known that the conduct of the universities in this country is most likely to excite the sense of iiiitotice with which the servitors of Oxford and the sizars of Cainbridee are implicated. You have your Margaret of Anjou, your Margaret of Rich mond; you have your founders of colleges; and what a result do you arrive at? You come to the end of the story ; you arrive at the conclusion that all your royal colleges have to be supported on the principle of Dotheboys Hall. There was, it is true, a con tract with the Irish Parlament, but how was that contract ever fulfilled? By a disregard of all p-inciple, a shirking of all obligation, and an utter contempt for equity and truth. There are some who object to the grant to Maynooth, on the principle that it is entirely needless, from its entire exoneration from all claims of social and civil polity. To these I will only say, what is the difference between 9.0001. a-year and 26,000/ ? I must come to the point as to what doctrines will be preached by the Church of Rome, and I am satisfied that a charge will be made upon her that she teaches error. If she does teach such errors it is plainly evident that those errors are the result of the system which has in this country been imposed upon her ; and it should further be remembered that in the inculcation of truth there is an obligation, in some instances, far above the law, and that inculcation would lead every one to appreciate his position in the social circle, and enable him to arrive at a point, if he could arrive at all, in which his doubts should be resolved and his hesitation be con cluded. You haveheard something of Church extension, and while I desire to see that extension promulgated to its utmost limits, 1 at the same time repudiate whatever errors there may be in the Church of Rome, and acknowledge my fealty to what I conceive to be the despotic Government of the Church of England. Yet while acknowledging this despotic govern ment, I cannot, at the same time, appeal against rho e powers which would render any Government the conservatoes of public morals. With respect to the errors of the Church of Rome, I will beg to say that I prefer that there should be the religion of the Church of Rome rather than no religion at all, and 1 think that while that religion is acknowledged, it is a duty of the State to support it in its integrity. Well, then, what are you to do which may conduce to their religious benefit ? Will any man, after the last twenty years only of experience, think, that by keepine away this grant, you will give an impulse to the Protestant religion ? I any man thinks so, I think he ought to vote against the present mea sure.—( Hear.) But Ido not think so.—(Cheers.) The considerations which I have stated satisfy me ; and, althou gh . It th in k tire absence of religious instruction. — ( Hear , hear.) Although it to better propagate that error s Christianity not m wi y th w any ish form what is I bseytter is, than that the I do not approve of that form, which has a strong influence open the people of Ireland, yet I think that if we cannot in any other way provide for the religious instruction of that people, it is better to confer upon them this boon, even in spite of the error.—(Cheers.) I think that thereis great force in the argument against the State endowment of the Church of Rome. Yet I think that if that is to be taken as a general rule, the arg ument in favour of the voluntary system does apply to this case, which ought to be an exceptior!--- (Ch eer s.) For in that island, witha. population of eight millions, a Church with a population of little more than 800 000, possesses a million of revenue — the income of its archbishops alone exceeding 70,0001.—( Hear, hear.) You have at the same time, in the north of Ireland, an endowment in another form.—( Hear, hear.) But you have in the back ground, four-fifths of the population, without any assistance from the State—(Hear, hear)—and theirs is the religion for which all the original endowments were intended. — (Cheers.) Th i s is a case quite by itself. I was astonished to hear Gentlemen, amongst others the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury — say that , after passing this measure, it would be impossible to resist the claim of the Wesleyan Methodists of England to a similar endowment.—(" Hear, hear," from the Tory benches.) Well, you think so.—( Hear, hear.) But are the case; analogous ? Is there the slightest resemblance?—( Hear, h ear.) . There are sixteen millions of peopl e in Great Brita in—are there thirteen millions of Wesleyan Methodists ?—( Cheers. ) Yet you have a Church in Ireland, with a revenue of a million endowment—and the Wesleyan Methodists have 100,000/. l e f t and a half—ydu have the Presbyterian Church, with a St ate to the followers of John Wesley, and you exclaim ag a i ns t a grant of 26,000/. for educating the clergy of four-fifth s o f t h e whole population. -- ( Cheers.) Bring me the ease of the Wesleyan Methodists, and I shall know how to deal w ith i t .— (Cheers and a laugh.) But here is a . csse . which could not occur in England, in Franc e, or in Prusteo nor in any country not situated like Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It could be only in the case of a weaker country connected with a more powerful one , wh ich has abused its power to enable the minority to triumph over the majority. —( Cheers.) Havirg placed Ireland in such a position as this— nothing like which could exist elsewhere—and whilst those other great endowments in that country exist and are perpe tuated-1 think it is impossible for you to inset the case of the Irish Roman Catholics by saying, when you are asked to add 17,000 i. to the grant already conceded—" We are against any endowment at all.''—(Cheers.) The question may remain to be settled at a future stage, whence is this endo7ment to come? What funds are the most appropriate ?—( Cheers. 1 Bet Ido not go into that now.—( Hear, hear.) In the firs't place, it seems to be perfectly clear, that if you have no scruple about the 9,0001. which you have, hitherto granted, you can have none a ga i nst the increase. It seems to me, in the next place, im possible to maintain the voluntary principle, un l ess the State and individuals desist to give endowments for religious pur noses at all, or make any efforts for the propagation of truth. Therefore, when I see the case of a c ountry i n w hi ch other religions are endowed, and the reli g i on w hi ch the majority of the people believe o be the best, and which alone they will adopt, left without assistance, I consider the case one of the most morbid anomaly.—( Hear, hear. ) fthink therefore, that, from every motive, we ar e bound to make this concession to the Roman Catholics of Ireland.— ( Cheers.) Those were the chi e f o b servat i ons I h ad to make on the merits of the measure itself. But there is another class of objections which have been forced upon us. m could againea sub n r resiotsuhdatohmtsl forward. r.b with r de p .i e gß r h s ue o td n l a bt l hy h i na o kn n yo t hisucro, consideration s o s ai r d ge u ru i ae t credit t h sit,:nonowf hp On the first night of the debate, we were called on to resist this me .sure, be c ause it was brought forward by men who lic c p o a n ss du g c n t nd of l public I incn and e t men.— ( Hear, hear.) We have heard the same argum ent ld not be brought into consideration. Ido not think that the ht t r h es a ll t e w e e t s o ho t u h l e d ld seem is have fixed principles.—( Loud and continued cheer ing.) I think that public men should seem to have fixed principles, and to he guided by those fixed principles in . office and in opposition.—(lmmense cheers.) It is most desirable that it should not appear to the world that the . mere change of situation should produce a complete charism in the policy o f . pubic men.—(Cheers arid counter- cheer:. But . I do not think it needs any argument to prove that if the particular measure be good, and it may yet be viewed in con !lemon with the former conduct and professions of those who introduced it—this should lower them in public • • estimation.— ( Cheers.) Yet our course is clear. We are to distinguish between the men and the measure.—(Cheers.( . We ought to adopt the measure for its intrinsic merits, whilst of the authors we might speak in such forms of censure as the occasion cailed for.—( Hear, hear.) In such form of censure, I feel bound to speak.—( Hear.) I bear no personal hostility to any man, and the political hostility which I ectertain, I avow. I believe the Right Honourable Baronet has the qualifications of an excellent Alinitter—that he possesses great talents for finance, and for the management of this House, that he has great industry, great knowledge, and a fall determination to carry on the Government of the country ,n the best manner for the interest of the Crown and the people.--( Hear, hear.) But I cannot deny that those who, in +pi te of bitter experience, a second thus have trusted . him and raised him to power, now find themselves a second time de lnded.—( Great cheering.) It is impossible to deny it has been too much the habit of the Bight Renewable nh t public think m iaecarnhi p ar ty, w i th Gentleman to use, when in oppposition, passions with which he had teat the , 1ig , ,t05! judices shu s h lac disavowed.—( Renewed cheering.) When a change a salutary change—took place, his former coadjutors were despised (Cheers) his supporters were disregarded (Cheers)—and the ladder by which he had risen to power was thrown down.—( Great cheering.) That has been the course of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Cheers.) I will not now go over the events of eighteen years. I will not say what occurred in 1627 or 1829.—(Great cheering.) I will only say that one such change was enough for one such Minister.— ( Continued cheeering.) He and those with whom he acts return again to that course.—( Hear, hear.) I will not now go into the circumstances, much as I regret them, by which the Government of Lord Melbourne was overthrown. I will only ask, was there ever a single body of men who relied on the Right Hon. Baronet whom he has not again and again bitterly disappointed?—(Cries of " No, no," and cheers.) Well, then, I leave the management of this question to the landed gentry. —(Cheers, and loud laughter.) I must refer however to this, that the clamour which did the most injury to the G vernment of Lord Melbourne was the cry of " No Popery."—(Cheers.) Now, what is the statement we hear to-night from the Hon Gentleman the Member for Donegal, that he supports the measure upon principle, but does any man believe that if my Noble Friend beside me had brought in this Bili, it would not be opposed by the whole of that Honourable Gentleman's party ?---(Loud cheers.) Four years ago a very different Bill was brought in, the ob ject of which was to disfranchise the Catholics of Ireland by tens of thousands, but the party which then supported the Right Hon. Gentlemen represented the Bill as calculated to do the greatest good, and to purge the House of Commons of the minions of Popery.—(Laughter.) ‘Ve asked you to wa't— to let it go to the next session. No, no time must he lost; the thing must be done immediately. The change took plsee. You have now been four years in power—you could have passed the Bill, if you pleased, and when you pleased. Where is it now ? It is flung away—it i 3 positively pronounced by its author to be so destructive to the representative system that no Government could venture to carry it on.—( Cheers ) What have you given instead? A Bill f nt the endowment of Maynooth. --(Great cheering.) Did any one ever see such a tour of legerdemain ?—( Cheers and laughter.) You imposed on the honest, hot-healed Protestants; they looked on your Bill with delight, and see what you have given in its place.—(Cheers.) Do you wonder, then, at the clamour that deafens you ? (Cheers. ) Do you wonder that petitions come upon the table as thick as snow-storms.—( Cheers.) Is it a wonder when for the very measures of concessi n which you opposed when we were in office, you now whip your unwilling followers to the vote.—( Cheers and laughter. ) Is it any wonder that those ferocious spirits whom you reused to harraas us should now torment yourselves?—(Cries of " Hear, hear. ) Do yeu wonder that Exeter Hail sets up its bray—( Laughter)— and that Mr. M'Neil proclaims that the priests of Baal are feasted at the table of Jezebel?—( Great 2heering and laughter. ) If you thought that, having raised the spirit of religious ani mosity, you could lay it as speedily as you raised it, you will he doomed —the day of reckoning m st still come, and that day has now come. The Right Hon. Baronet, as a public man, is arraigned before the House and the country, to show us some real principle with respect to Irish affairs which has guided you in office and opposition. Show us how, if you are honest in 1845, you could have been honest in 1841. Ex plain to us h ,w after, when out of office, you goaded Ireland into madness, in order to ingratiate yourselves with England, you now in place turn round and throw England into a flame, in order to ingratiate yourselves with Ireland. Let as hear some argument showing to us that, as a Minister, you are entitled to support which will not equally show that you were the most factious and unprincipled Opposition that eeer this country produced. These are my opinions respecting the conduct of Ministers. But am I, therefore, to answer the ap peal of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, and vote against this Bill? Not so. I believe both the Bill and the Minister to be in our hands. The inconsistency of the Minister has certainly produced mischief, but will that mischief be lessened if inenn sistency is to be displayed in this side of the House ? I admit that this Bill in itself—and the circumstances under which it is brought in by the Tories, or whatever they call themselves— will produce many evils, but these evils would, in my opinion, be doubled, if it were to he rejected by the Whigs, and, there fore, it seems to me it would turn the opinion of this House into one vast shipwreck, as well as the whole public character of England. It has, therefore, induced me to restrain my feelings, and I have determined to give to this Bill through all its stages my most steady support, and to every Bill coming from the Government which may appear to me likely to make Great Britain and Ireland a freely united kingdom. I give such support regardless of all obloquy and at the risk of losing my seat in Parliament. The obloquy so raised I shall look upon as glory. My vest in Perliament I shall resign, and coreider it no ignominious tender, feeling as sured that I could never lose it in a more honourable cause. —( The Hon. Member resumed his seat amidst loud cheers. ) Mr. SHAW tenifes , ,eil that he did not sufficiently diff r from the latter part of the o'iservations made by the Right Hon. Gentlemen as to render it. necessary for him to trouble the House with any lengthened reply to them.—( Hea.-, hear.) He need not, therefore, assure the House that it was his pain ful duty to oppose those with whom he had all along co-ope rated. It was truly painful to him to do so, but if he were rot to support the amendment of the Hon. Member for Newcastle, he should be acting contrary to the dictate; of his own con science. He was in Ireland when a copy of this Bill, and the speech of his Right Hon. Friend the First , Minister of the Crown, was received, and he had no recollection of anything having given more pain—such deep distress to the Protestants of Ireland—as did both the Bill and the speech. In using the term Protestants he did not mean the men to whom the Right Hon. Gentleman had just alluded, and whose petition was presented the other night by the Honourable Mem ber for Knaresborough. He disapproved of their language, nor did he represent their sentiments, but he spoke of calm, dispassionate, and reasonable men. many of whom had all their lives been friends to the polhical equality of their Roman Catholic brethren. Like the lion. Member for Newark, they looked upon this grant as the first religious endowment of the sort since the revocation of the Roman Ca tholic establishment in connexion with the stete. They re garded it as a clear indication filet henceforward Ireland was not to be treated as an integral portion of the United Kingdom.— ( Laughter.) They regarded it as the heaviest blow that had ever been struck either by fee or by friend to the Established Church of Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh first attacked the arguments of those who did not object to the grant, but objected to its increase. He (Mr. Shaw) was one of those. Hitherto he had looked upon the grant with the greatest possible indifference. He thought it a doubtful policy to continue it, but he also felt it was impos sible to to take it away without bringing upon many indivi duals whose support depended on it, very great pecuniary em. barrassment. He however agreed with the Hon. Member for ' Newark, that no compact existed upon this subject, but he altogether differed from those who said there was no distinc tion between the proposed and the past grant. On the contrary, there was an obvious distinction. The Right Hon. Gen leman next alluded to the objections of those who opposed the grant on the ground of religion. Now, he would at once declare, that he totally repudiated the doctrine of the Honourable and Learned Member for Bath, because he did not think it was just or right to say Parliament or the country could make no dis tinction between two religions. True, they did not make any practical distinction, but unless they admitted the power of man to make some distinction latitudinarianism would usurp the place of the real and established religion.—( Hear, hear. ) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that he treated that argument with contempt. It might be so. They had the highest authority for saying that it was not to the scribe or the disputant of this world that these things were made plain ; but ' this he might say, that it was sufficiently intelligent to the moral sense of the community that their religious feeling was violated. When he heard Englishmen at this time of the day saying that there was no difference between truth and religion, he would ask why was it part of the Constitution that the reigning Sovereign of this realm must he a Protestant ? Why was it that Protestantism was by law established in every por tion c f the empire ? The Hon. Member for Newark let fell an expression the other night, that he could not understaed what was indicated by the term Protestantism, and that there were many who repudiated that term, He ( Mr. Shaw) would not enter into any logical arguments with his H mourable Friend the Member for Newark, but he thanked God that the name of Protestantism was yet intelligible to the understanding and dear to the hearts of Englishmen.—( Hear, hear)—and whe ther it be through the Romanism of ecclesiastics or the want of fixed principles on the part of their political leaders, used for the purpose of alienating the affections of the people of Eng land from the Church, and shaking their confidence in the Government, they would forget. the true meaning and forsake the cause of Protestantism, then in his soul he believed that the days of England as a nation would be numbered, and the glories of this country departed for ever. Though they should not, for Christianity sake, persecute for conscience sake, on the other hand they should not encourage that which they believed to be erroneous. He should make no objection now, if this Bill did no more than relax the statute of mortmain. And, after all, it was only a compact which was entered into by an Irish Parliament ; and never tip now hail a national inconsistence been committed by the English Government—he must, also say, a national sin—of endowing a Catholic seminary, for the sole exclusive purpose of teaching the Roman Catholic religion. An analogy had been attempted, by taking the ease of a Protestant landlord and a Roman Catholic tenant. He (Mr. Shaw) was of opinion that a Protestant landed proprietor should give the uttnost facility to his Roman Catholic tenant, for the free exercise of his own religion, but he was not bound to give direct en couragement to that which he believed to he contradictory. He thou„ ht he saw the Member for Roscommon in his place ; they both d ffered in rslieion and politics, but there was no person in whose hands he would more readily place his ho nour or his life. On a question of religion, however, he would not deirive him of a single right which he ( Mr. Shaw) him self possessed. He ( the Member for Roscommon) said that they should treat the Roman Catholics as they themselves would desire to be treated, but he did not think that it would Increase their friendship if one of them gave direct encoarage ment to the religion of the other, because it would snow great incsnsistesiey and insincerity in his conduct. The first prin ciple which was violated was this, that while they were increasing funds for the aid of the Roman Catholic religion, they were diminishing the funds for the education cif the Protestants, by making a transfer of the rates to the incomes of the clergymen. While they were increasing the buildings of the College of Maynooth, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were refusing to repair the churches for want of funds. These things were not unobserved, and could not be unfelt ; for his own part, he was at a loss to know what had been the inducement which had led her Majesty's Government so to do violence to the feelings of thousands and tens of thousands who sign the petitions which nightly crowded the table against the Bill. He was sorry to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh describe them as mere paper and parchment. The strong feel ing of England and Scotland was opposed to this measure. The Hon. Member the Secretary for Ireland stated that there were very few petitions from Ireland. But of all the petitions which did come from Ireland, only one which was in favour of the Bill was that alluded to by his Hon. Friend opposite, the Member for Perth, which came from a congregation of Dis senters, as a kind of token of gratitude to the Right Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the quota tions made by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark from the speech of Mr. O'Connell—" Agitation, I thank you ; the Conciliation-hall is obliged to you. Repeal and Maynooth ought to pray for you." The Hon. Gentleman said that this measure was chiefly important on account of the principles which it involved. He was of the same opinion. It had been very strongly asserted en the other side of the House, but it was very faintly shadowed forth on the part of her Majesty's Ministers, who had gone too far, or not far enough. They had excited the fears and the Protestants of Ireland, which they could not easily appease, and they had excited the hopes of the Roman Catholics with this Bill, which he did not believe they intended to realise. Before he sat down, there was one other point to which he would wish to advert. He would wish to remind the House and the Government that they were now touching on very tender and dangerous ground.—( Hear.) There were very few thinking men connected with Ireland, whatever their political opinions might be, who did not labour under the impression that their country had long-been treated more as a colonial de pendency than as an integral portion of the British empire.— ( Hear, and cheers from the Opposition.) So convinced were they of this fact, that they were all compelled to admit that "Divide et Impere" had been the maxi m by which thoy had , long been governed.—(Cheers.) Yes, party against party had been too long the only rule in that country.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) The only rule then understood iii ' variably was, the party of the Government against its oppo nents ; and its present state did not much differ, because it was now the Government- party so divided from side to side that it might be called the Government divided against itself,.-7, NO (" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial side.) But, e' la te , r had trcil by these..Nhs ought to have In . the last to make them, to scatter the minds of such men to': the right direetian, and distract their intellects, t o such an tent, that they were now almost inespacitate ' d from comPs nding the evil consequences of such a system..( Hear' hear.if The national character of Irishmen had been deteriorated, en_ their public spirit had become almost extinct.—(,, Hear "fT t the Opposition.) Their unpolitical interests had been lost 5113 of—their noble resources forgotten or neglected—lh' ir Pr laws, their every public institution neglected or laid 01!_11 their position as a nation lowered, and their honour sacrieu'" to measuros of imperial policy.—(Loud cheers from the Gr Pr„ sition.) Even the last remnant of royalty left them, t':'t Lord-Lieutenant, had become so great an object of inferiorlbi that it had nearly ceased to dazzlo—( Hear. hear) —and Castle of Dublin was now very little better than a r egistretl , . court for the behe.ts of the Home-office of this country. la (" Hear, hear," fr.m the Ministerial benches.) Then he tc ( P ri , say let the British Government and the Imperial 1A0 1°1 . 4 beware lest they at length form the Irish nation into one at bond of union for the expression of a general feeling of content.—( Hear, hear.) For those reasons that be 1 7,, offered, and not wishing to trespass longer on the How , " would give this measure - his most cordial opposition. wo uld se t Mr. SIDNEY HER ftHAT hoped the House the think it presumpnaous in him, at this late hour et ui d night, if, on account of the speeches he had heard, he sho o f endeavour to convey, in as few words as possible, his reaseho for voting fer this measure. But he did conceive it was• bt dory to say a few words in answer to the speech of the R s ig o f Hon. Gentleman the Member for E inburgh, and also th no t ' the Member for Dubin', on the measure now before the H e w , and at the tenor of which lie was perfectly astoni-hed. Th e t o Member for Edinburgh, in his speech. which, like all et, l .„ that fell from him, was brilliant in laneuaee and posserftws argument, had adduced many reasons which he fie r a be p e o , . coEceived were reasons for passing this measure.— ( '` t bit hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had shown that in. , measure there was no principle involved.—(Cries of " ,r,esi hear," from the Op, osition. ) Nothin could be more than that such was the effect of the Right Hon. Gentlereat; arpiment ; and if so, he would wish to know, then, he' r measure could be called so great a violation of public Pi l e ) cipl,?—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He (Mr, Herbs could not see what there was in this measure to Cl 3 the present Government with dereliction of principle.- -- ( 1 hear.) In every year that this subject was brought fors 7. 0 those who now belonged to the Government then suppor t s The - and if so why should they now oppose it ?—( Hear, hear.) the Hon. Member then alluded to passages in tfie speech t.;, h i Right Hon. Member for Dublin, and having quoted them , went on to say, that the result of that had been to threw 14 Catholic interests into the hands of men who had no pr o p er nor nor stake in the order and tranquillity of Ireland; of therefore, the Government had seen the necessity nr proposing this measure, in order to g i ve the tural instructors of the people an interest , the State, and to place the peace of Ireland on a firmer he ; The Right Hon. Gentleman behind him, who had %T od against the measure, had taken a course which he (Air. Si u , r , Herbert) could not understand. While his speech ba d 'lie tainly bean against the measure proposed by Government,,, arguments were entirely in its favour. He argued by a ns p in favour of this measure, for heshowed that other countries ;„ munificently endowed their Catholic clergy. If they w, e / allow a grant at all, why not at once give a liberal one • tso, knew that they had been told that night to take this as I° , o l, iv that this measure would not have the effect anti ei P l eers He was fully prepared for the next year, and the year ono and even the succeeding year, to find th a t thi s Bill seon l , d t bst be a successful measure, but the House mu s t bear in mind' e$ all good laws operated at first hut slowly, although the r might be permanent pod to the interest they were int e ,i o o, • to benefit. lie was anxious, however hu m ble his ins and however feeble his arguments might be consider ed was anxious that whatever might be the o dium, or the for popularity, or the responsibility that attached to this tneasare'oe geed or evil, to share in it. and for this reason alone if f er n lot • higher, he troubled the House at that lat e h our of the W ile * He was not one of those who thought w ith the Rig h t ! t Gentleman, the Member for the Unive rs ity of Dublin. til, e nie ss independent spirit of the Irish would b e destroyed by the t tbe sure of the Government. He did not know, indeed, w"t it Right Hon. Gentleman meant by this independent 91';'li Ireland. Surely measures calculated to give them an °lola -duration, and to spread abroad a more liberal feeling, o r not he expected to destroy this Irish spirit. If, by a n t the pendent epirit, the Right Honourable Gentleman m enu r est spirit of party—which unfortunately then e xisted to no de' degre e —h e wou ld i n f orm th e Right Honourable co y man that the Government asked for no high °. a irit• pl ment than the having destroy e d thi s i n dependen t 1 1 0 00 —( Cheers.) And such a result he thought m i g ht he lot s prophesied, for no Gentleman in that House cou ld listened to the speeches of the Irish Member; withoe,, no ne struck by the altered tone of their speeches They h ear ;erfe e of the party feelings, they heard none of those of appeals to religious feelings which were the disgrace 0 ' "",al4 debates. He trusted that the Government "ta. receive from Irish Gentlemen that co-operation and as' i , s „ without which the best measures would most certainnoir, His firm conviction was, that the measure was so soun' l ',,%les` rinse and polity, and s o calculsted for the good of the Pr.; ) reland, that be felt bound to gi ve it hi s suppor t s —( li e n the rnotien of Mr. BERESFORD, the debate w° adjourned till to-morrow. • n et sse ° The Justices Clerk sod Clerks of the Peace .'": 1 t ole through Committee, and vas ordered to be read th ir to-morrow. On the motion of Mr. LYALL the following ge n i; o :' were appointed a Select Committee on Commercial 3 13r ,,0 0 P Mr. Lyali, Mr. Gladstone, Viscount Sandcn, Mr. ( -:° 4 Sir William Clay, Mr. Liddell. Mr. Ping-,am Barl,oo o . ;Tuart W.riley. Captain Gladstone, Mr. Hutt, Mr . d ter' Baring, Mr. Ross, Mr. Denoistoun, Wawa, so Barclay. SMOKE PROHIBITION. OP On the motion of Mr. MACKINNON, the Sell c otil mittee on the Smoke Prohibition Bill was a siting of the following Members :—Mr. Mackin a ril Oa Beckett, Viscount Newry, Mr. Brotherton, Mr• D l 7, Eger Earl of Lincoln, Mr. Octavius Duncombe, Lord P rlaja rthwit ton, Mr. William Henry Bodkin, Mr. Ewait, N' r ; l l l3 ,. ° Will ig " Mr. Hindley, Mr. Protheroe, Mr. Ricardo, and `....• Williams. ppointe , st• PRISONS (SCOTLAND). Co m mittee On the moti on o f M r. EDW A RD E L LICE, the Coinjr. on Prisons (S cot l an d) was appo i nte d , cons i s ting' ° f Ellice, jun., the Lord Advocate, Mr. Home Druareli Cot' Rutherford, M r . F or b es M ac k enz i e . Mr. Duncan , 511. rlr ming Bruce, Mr. Gibson Craig, Mr. William Fer be Poottt Loch, Mr. Henry Stuart, Mr. Patrick Stewart, Mr' Mr. Hussey, and Mr. Aotrobus. 130 1 Mr. ROBERT SCOT 1' obtained leave to bring in tern to declare valid assignments and surrender of chattle in real property made in certain cases. ADJOURNMENT OF THE DEB ‘TE ON r rt i GRANT ILL. Sir R. PEEL said NOOTH he presumed it was understood tlicsithrfo debate was adjourned to to-morrow (this day ), and ri°lll precedence of the notices of motion. ti • bi Mr. ROUVERIE, on behalf of Mr. Ward, said be doubt his Hon. Friend intended to give w a y as rag arfle notice of motion. Dr. BOW RING also gave way as regardod his wet °. The House then adjourned, at Half-past Twelve. GOAT. rars.sucET. ir Prices per ton at the close of th e mar k e t :—Au , L:5 1 " t. ; 15s; 13uchtle's West Ha r tl e y, 16 s • C ar e s Hartle' Chester M:;in, 15s 3d; Davison's West Hartley, ' 16 4 ; )1A,L 11 ,' Tanfiehl, 14s; /Listing's Hartley, 15 s 9d : HolYW, e ' v - 16s; Morrison's Hartl e y, 14s; Nelson's West Har t l l 4 'itr, New Taufhld, 14s 6d ; Old Pontop, 14s 6d ; H r Pontop' heugh, 13s 6d ; Pontop Windsor, 14s 6d ; Pott's ' l - 3,5171 14s; Shipeote, unscreened, 13s 3d; Smith's Taylor's West Hartley, 16s ; Townley, 15s We st 16s ; West Wvlam, 15s 6(.1; Wvianc, 134 33 ; 60 0 ' Bell and Brown, 16s 6d ; Robson, 15s 6d ; Gibson , 1 . 7 , s ; 130, 1 1', forth, IGs 6 , 1; Killingwerth, 15s 6d; Walker, 155 6 4 ; 95 5 4 ." dyll's fictton, 18s 9d ; East Hettcm, 16s; Haswell, t i Hetton, 18s 6d; Hylton, 16s; Lambton, 185; I% ,?' ° , i sse li i: 155 94; New Hettori Lyons, 163; Richmond, 16s; ' f ie: Hetton, ; Stewart's., Iss 3d; Caradoc, 183; 03 ,,. f r `her°": ISs 94 ; Heugh Hall, 16s; Kelloe, 17s ; Leasil'bi t 1 6 ‘y 17 s 6(1; South Kelloe, 17 •, Trimdon, 17s 3d ; Ba rr „ e crs-e l3 ; Cos, ndon Tees, 16s 34; Eden Hartlepool, 17s; 1V M•Lean's Tees um/ Witton Park, mixed, 15s • South 165; . , 155; Brynly hand picked, 21s; Derwentwater H artle :2ls 3(W iart lss6d ; .langennech, 21s ; Lewiss ikfertheovr,tbert,"!- Pow , ll's Duffryn Steam, 22s 6d West Hartley • 16s.—Ships arrived 229. mei' vented SpscLcles, Telescopeo,,, 'r is t° Glasses, Microscopes, &c. The artificial aid sol' ift e s the sight by Lenses, is One of the most valuable g f istin rived from science, and it is indeed of vital ine:1 1 0 ,1 1" that the adoption of Spectacles to imperfect vis,i °ll- n d be regulated on proper principles. Messrs. . 7 . to °V, bolumens, 39, Albemarle-street, Piccadilly, dir e t : liv7, posite the York Hotel, having devoted their W ll , °' ; to this branch of science, and their lone: e: - „ P e' tic, have enabled them to invent Spectacle Len'e s bs new construction, which have gained universal oPP,riec• tion. Irnmcciiately they are placed before iT,P r ; vi• ion, that mist and dullness which appear b e b i° ,,e - ol o , ls • eyes is at once removed, every onket „Merit! 1. Rrij. di:4,lloi, that the most a;. - ed, to sight becomes bright and brilliant, and is brougrrreV: youthful, natural and origin a l s t a te. Achrotua l t e ‘,o ll r scopes, Opera Glasses, Mi c r osco p es , &c. &e., of o`Thel t i kind of Lenses to surpass arm ever i nven ted. r r de r • Invisible Voice C en; l uc t or S oun d Magnifier!, I :.: o3 fof d persomi, is not the leas , l e T c,pti o l e nor more uh barite pirce of wool in its place ; t"'; des' rdief to old standing extreme eas e l ° th a 'f ness.. Those valuable inve n tions have gall*" qualified approbation of above 400 of the princiF 4 b.u-s of the ml'dical profesion. Caution. --MeBs oc i ; and B. Solomons, opticians, are not in any waY. c°- with a person of the same name in their 11 0 neighbourho,d, nor in any part of the celOtir,rto prevent mistakes be cautio u s, an d observe, ° 13 :10 tb had at 39, Albemarle-strec - , Piccadilly, ePP °— York Hotel. faliTS H. On the 10th inst., at Liverpool, the lady of the Ile'. Pr' 00 ,1 0 Iliff, of a son. , 0 9 0 .4 On the 10th inst., at Hatnilton- terrace, St. of ife Mrs. Henry Troubridget the G Wright, of a son. On the 10th inst., arove, Old Wiadso r. th e the Rev. R. Lewis Brown, of a daughter A A _ - : , l 1 A IlaA' D On the Sth in s t., at St. l Savionz's, Mr. W i t h3 F - rie l; e " d Evans, to Eliza, fourth daughter of the late Mr. J ' - le° Bankdde. e a le il ib On the Sth i n st., a t S t. M ryl b Ch u rch, DJ' 0 0- ' Cook, of Duke -street, ManchesterTs e quarQ, to 5°9 o f fourth daughter of W. Burchett Es . of Holbo rn• vo (1., r' On the 10th inst. at Shadin ' field q , 'John Klin 6:,9 Bury St. Edmund's, to Anna Maria, d au ghter of rr. _....„./ e'' , ' ; ' t g Esq. , of Shadingfield Hall, Suffolk a Si ril"6lll DIED. On the 29th. ult., at his residence, 150, Stria - 1 1 0st i ' ' C Henry Chambers, Esq., Royal Marine ' gervice, ""°, 7 11 ..,7, o li : last surviving son of the late William Chambers, -",,7 'de e ' years effective officer to the Hon. Board of Ordran-' Br's On and since; dy regretted by hi s f am ily a nd frienc l3- e ar 13r- On the 7th o f F e b ruary, at Wi nter bournei 0 t •ot Thomas Selby, E sq ., l ate o f t h e I s l an d o f Meeirs• Di trb'" Oa the 3t:t inst., at Bedford-place, ii t l g htoO9 n d e e • p daughter of the late Patrick At derson s(l. , °I P c 11- 10 13 t On the 4th inst, John Crossley, ! Esq•, °L -113 f,144 Giles's, Buckinghamshire. - . a ova l ' , On the oth in , t., at Hove, Brighton, Di' - ' 9 rs` Captain (Anal taohed), lee of thP Sist R•.gim.,nt. Geo On the 9th inst., at Harble ' down, ' C anterb'ir-C' ." Wi nj'ill Buckley, E4q. On the 10th inst., at Ward's Horse, alcUleY' 14t. 1 . Warty, Esq., aged 76. ,- o °' On tho llth Inst., in Mary-street, HcanP"'" .-,1 thins von Hoist, 86. - ./ . 0 ( r ~! ~. ,~~ -t, po't Priatsrl and Pablishcd by MEET) 0 ,„ - tlch, No. 'l2. :,rat , fi. Printer. 0 the The Svn Owe °, calm g Strand, in the Preeieot of the Savoy, Illiddlesex, Tuesday, April 15, 1845.