The Sun. — London, England, 1818-05-01 00:00:00

. younger Officer might 'be among those in the four senior troops, and had thus retired on fllll pay, Might be 'true ; but what was there in this eke 'rent from the chances of the whole army, Where - an older Officer might go into a younger 'regiment on promotion, or any other reason, and be over taken by a reduction, while a junior, who had re itained in the old regiment, continued employed. The Hon. Gentleman could not surely be ignorant of this, and wanted them therefore to introduce the strange contusion of either never being able to reduce the army by corps, or, upon every reduction, creating a' revolution itt all the old regiments. —(Hear, hear !)—Such then was the 'principle, what tees the practice ? %Why, even in this very Artillery service, and this very corps of Drivers, the precedents were all against them. In 1812 the commission of Major in the Corps was suppressed, and the Officer, Major James, placed upon half, not fell pay ; yet the office being declared useless, it was evident he could never return. At the peace, the Artillery of the German Legiou, and also the foreign At finery, were reduced, and the Officers (many of whom hell served with distinction iu the field), received not full, but half-pay, These also a cot , for ever out of the service. Bet a more exact case was-to be found in that of the Drivers on the Irish Establishment, which had been reduced in 1802, not on full, but on halt pay. This was precisely in point, for these Officers, no more than those in question, were eligible (if indeed either were itteligihle to commissions its the line ) These, at this moment, enjoyed annuities to the amount of near 9001. a-year. Now, what had these done, or those of the six troops on do English Establishnont, that they were not to Ist allowed the same benefit as those in whose favour the Hon._Gentlemsn ccished the department to break all rules ? Nothing ! And it this question were carried, the Mastt r-General eould not, and would not, oppose their arrears. This brought him to the quevion of finance. The arrears of the Irish Drivers Officers would be more than 15,000/. those of the English more than-10,0001. besides an increased permanent expellee of about 6000/. a-year ; but besides these, _there was a battalion of Irish artillery reduced at the Union, never to return to the artillery service, whose arrears would he full 22,0001 ; in all 47,0001. With neither right nor precedent for them, with all precedent against them, were the [louse pre pared to grant away all this money ? Or when the Master-General and Board were called upon, from one end of the country to the other, (arid by nu one more loudly than by the Hon. Gentleman who made this motion) could they on e isch a c ase be deemed good stewards fur the Public, if they sanctioned the application ? lie rested it, how ever, not on the ground of Finance. God forbid' . that a question of justice should becothe a ques tion of money ; hut in a case Uthrre there was no justice, Finance must have its weight. It was really painful to him to say there was no justice in this demand, but it was forced upon him.— An opinion was thus publicly called for, and he was bound to give it,-or relinquish his duty.— Were the coeutty rich enough, with his good will, all Officers who had served as long avid as well as Captain Humphreys should tether with full pay. As it Was, he was at a less to discover what there was iu the case of any of these Geode- Melt (meritorious sie Ire bad allowed them to he,) to Set them above the claims of tneir Brother Of ficers and those of the whole British army. whose ditties were at least more immelately military, who had many of them bled for their country, and who had even paid for their commissious, which these offitets had not. For these the Commander inn Chief had laboured in vain to procure site!' a boon as this; and he would state his Royal High ness's opinion, diet if this measure were carried it would he unjust to others, and create the greatest discontent. It was said, officers of the line had not lost their military career ; he had shown from their commissions, that that of the Driver officers was at best but most contracted. It was said that the Irish Battalion had been left eligible to commissions in the line; he could only say, as far as the Ordnance were concerned, the Driver Officers were not ineligible. It being ac customed to evolutions, to command and to obey, and act coolly in the face of an enemy, could Make Officers eligible, he (for one) should say they were eminently so, But the discretion was in the Commander in Chief, not the Master Ge neral, and the Line itself was dependent upon that disctetion. Gentlemen had argued as if there was a right in the half-pay of the Line to succeed to vacant commissions—this was fallacious. The half-pay was a remuneration for past service, but gave no right to future employment. Regulation might sweep away a whole class at once. Sup pose, for example, the Commander in Chief were to resolve to call no one from the half-pay beyond the age of 30, this would exclude a great body of Officers; but would they, on that account, have a right to come to tire • House and demand frill pay ? Upon the whole, he, and those he repre sented, were fully convinced there was no colour Of argument for the motion. Nevertheless, he was very glad to state one, the only boon which the Master General felt he could authorise in their favour, viz. that as they were out of the artillery service, and deemed so in the Line, they should be allowed to bold their allowances-, consistently with any other employment under Government they might acquire. This wets more than any Officer of the Army enjoyed, be his services, his distinctions, or even his wounds, what they might. lie t r ust e d the House would pet mit this, and it Was the only agreeable part of the task he had to perform, as he 'could assure time Officers concern-• ed, and the Honourable Gentlemen echo s upported the motion, that he never felt his parliamentary duty so plaid as in being obliged, - for the rea sons stated, to give it his opposition--(Hear, bear !) Mr. LITTLETON was happy' that the •Hon. Gentleman had in some degree anticipated what lie had intended to submit to the House; namely, whether it would not be thought proper to grant these Officers some peculiar privileges. He could t►ot conceive why a military man should be ex cluded hiom serving his country in 'any other planner, in time of peace, without forfeiting his _ _ _ • M r. IV, pn Mr. Br ~sort spoke in favour of tile 'Officers in question, and hr,;id n letter to one of them from the late Duke of Richmond, stating his wisl► for their regular promotion, and that he never meant they should not rise to a higher 'rank. Thus he argued, that hope and ixPectatiOn had been held out to them, and not that their corps shold lie reduced without the possibility ol their entering into the line. lie was ready to do justice to th'e high character of the Nobleman at the head of the Ordnance ; amt he really believed that in better times these Officers would not have had occasion to sue for that which they never would ha%•e asked ior, it they had not thought themselves fully en. titled to it. Mr. CALCRAFT was against the. motion. He thought it his duty to say, that he conceived they had nothing to complain of. lie . re-stated the progressive reduction of the corps, and added, that his lion. Friend opposite (Mr. Wald) had adduced a precedent so completely overwhelm ing, that no answer could be given to it. It was his duty to stand up against such a claim, because he did not think it reasonable ; particularly as it appeared they.might now hold any other situation and retain their half-pay, which was an advantage pectiii.ir to Themselves. The arrangement was an extremely proper one, and, in fact, the only one that could have been made, consistently with the duty that Govern!Urn( owed to the country. Mr BENNP r, in reply. returned thanks to the Gentleman opposite for sliewiug that evel any thing was intended to be done for those per sons. He considered th , m, indeed, as the very •inews of t h e army; their assivance was of the utmost imnortance : the Officers served in action Under the hot=est fires, and many of them were now most severe sufferets from what they had un dergone. - The motion was then regatived. ALIEN BILL, Lord CASTLERF,AGH rose and said, that as this was a tihject of great importance, be did not thinh it proper to hriog it forward in so thin a House. He should, therefore, heg to postpone the consideration of the matter LII Tuesday ❑ext. lIIGIIWAYS Sir C:MONCK moved for, and obtained leave to bring in a Bill to alter the application of fees, penalties, :toil forfeitures, ►ncurred by surveyors of roads, and inhabitants of pari..bes, on account of neglect of duty respecting the repairs of High ways. _ . LAWS OF SE FTLEMENTS. Mr. STuRGES BounNe rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to alter the law of parish settle ments. As the House was then not very well at tended, he should content himself with briefly stilling the grounds of his motion, reserving him self for a fuller explanation when the Bill should be before them. IL: then proceeded to trace the law of settlements -through its various Modifica tions, from - the time of Elizabeth down to the year 1795,, when a Bill was brought in On this subject, which did more for the liberty of the poor than any measure of the kind that ever was introduced to Pal hutment. The'evils of the present system were well known, and they resulted in a great measure front the statutes of Charles IL re tunrine forty days' residence to obtain a settle ment in some instances, and in others many con tradictory regulations, which often left the poor without the means of support in the most trying circumstances. The extent of the public grievance might be seen. by the number of appeals upon pa rish tentovets, which in. 1816 amounted, in the whole kingdom, to 4700. Another source of dif ficulty and expensive litigation tees the mode of obtaining a settlement by service ; a principle liable to great abuse, and no doubt was often per verted for the interests of the individuals, or by legal decisions upon partial and imperfect evidence. By the present law, a man might obtain a settle ment in some instances by renting a house of 12/ a-year ; and it had been proposed to raise the rate to2o/: which some thought would tend to im prove the system. Having thus stated the evil, it became him, in the next place, to put the Hotise in possession of tne remedy proposed. As was naturally to be expected, various suggestions had been made in the Committee, and some had even gone so far as to recommend that no settle ment at all should be adopted ; but that the poor should be supported out of a general fund, when ever they might tall into circumstances requiring relief. This was a wide departure front the pre sent system, and he. thought extremely objection able. In the first place, if such a fund were esta blished, it would have to be distributed through 40,000 channels, for there were so many places which maintained their own poor. It was evident too, that it would be an inducement with the poor and disorderly to flock to large towns, as London far instance, where they would be sure of support, and might indulger in habits of indolence and vice. If this plan were adopted, the fund would swell enotmotisly from this cause, and it would also be increased by the mistaken humanity of different overseers throughout the country ; who, not haring to act under a local responsibility, would be tempted to depart from the economy which a parish rate enforced, and, relaxed in their vigi lance, might become the dopes of the wicked and designing. These objections were felt by the Committee, and soon convinced them that such a plan would involve the country in a still greater evil than that which was now to be redressed.— Having got rid of this proposal, it was next thought that birth ought not to give a settlement, even when that regulation was not superseded by more immediate grounds, for (leterminiug in what paridi the pauper should depend for subsistence. However, they afterwards came back to the old, and, he believed, safest principle, that the set tlement should be determined by the place of re sidence for the three last years. The first result_ of this. arrangement would be, that the person would be supported by the parish in which he had previously supported himself. This, he thought, was obviously just, as the place which had been _benefited by his labours- ought' to maintain him when he was not able to maintain Moist lf. He had said that he should propose three years' resi dence to give a settlement, and he thought there would be no difficult) in detertnitting claims of residence on this ground, without an appeal to the Quarter Sessions. There was a subordinate ar rangement, front which great benefit would arise, which was to make this Settlement further depend on the persons not having been out of the palish sixty days in any one of the three years, or con vic ed of any crime within •that . . period. A regu latio'n of this kind would have the best effects npcn the morals arid mufort of the poor. In order to avoid expence in cases 6f - disputed set tlements, it was proposed that the pauper should not he removed till the sppeal had been finally de cided. He was aware that this plan might be thought a bold one, brit he hoped it would be re collected that this was no innovation—it was merely - restoring the old law which w/IS recom mended by the very high anthOpity of Dr. Burns, who WI ore the Histot y of the Poor Laws ; and he was sure that if the recommendatlon could have any weight when Dr. Burns wrote, it had additional force froM the changes which had : since been produced in the state of the poor. Alter few more observations he conclUded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the laws for the settlements of the'poor. 1I r. A. WRIGHT asked, whether the sixty days' absence were to he taken consecutively ; or was it intended, that if a man teas absent that number of days in the whole year, he should so far lose his rigLt of settlement ? . Mr. STUrGes IIouRNE replied, that the GO days %J ere nor_ to be reckoned consecutively; but that it Lire twat number was to that amount in the year, then the law would operate ; and it was hoped that it would tend to attach the people to a settled mode of life. Lie had ft-got to state before, that in the case of s,rvatcs, it was intended to give the servant whir had lived three years with the saute mast, r, a settlement in that parish where he had resided for the last three months. Sir C. MoNcN. thon-4 In that the old plan of settlement coull not be changed withi•ot great d roger ; and hoped the Ilouse would watch the present 111CitStil e with the greates: care. Lord CasTLEnEAGn observed, that as the prin ciple of the Bill seemed to be of an nnobjectiou able nature, it would he best to postpone the discussion upon the particular modifications till it was printed, end it. the h?inds of Members. Sir S. llomm.v wished - to say, th.lt the ales sore seemed to Hui of the highest impoitanc e , mid recommended itself to the sciiuus attention of the He perfectly agreed in ihe principle of (lit Bill, and thought great praise was due to the Right lion Gentleman for the care and abi lity which he had exercised on the subject, and he doubted not great good would flow from his Hr trout professiodal expe rience, that the evils of the present system were enormous, and if not stopped .they must aceu ululate to an extent which was alarming to con template. IVith regard to every individual having sortie place of settlement, it could not be intended that any poor man should be left in circum stances Min) would give him Lo claim for sup port in time of 'treed. This was sometimes the case under the present system, and the Bill, lie trusted, would remelly• this distressing anomaly of the present laws. Mr.. LOCKHART .was sorry that litigations con cerning settlements had this year very noicli. , :in- Cleased.• Tbe Bill walki core that-evil. Besides, by the present law, a man of property might take many tenements of 101. a year out of his own parish, and settle poor people . in .thetn, to remove aie burden to . another. The Bill would apply itself to that abuse. The question was then put and carried, and leave given to bring in the Bill. 1.0.1 N BI LL. Mr. I3ROGDEN brought up the Report of the Loan Bill. Mr. J. MARTIN asked the Right !lon. Gentle man opposite, whether the subscribe's of Ex( lie s:per Bills were allowed to pay up iu full, xvlieth;r any discount were to be allowed to them, and when the stock was to be delivered to tbetn ? The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER said', he was ready to answer those question in't heir order. As to the question whether the subscribers were allowed to pay up in full, they certainly were allo►red. No discount was given, that be ing cotktrary to the practice respecting Exche quer Bill's. As to the third question, when stork should be delivered, it would be delivered as soca a s th e forms of the Bstik would allow. He felt confideut of the speedy consummation of that measure, having received offers, from most respect able quarters. Several clauses and amendments were then added to the Bill, on the motion of (lie Chancejlor of the Exchequer, and it was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow, and to he engrossed. LONDON BREWERS. Mr. BAUCLAY wished to know what had been :!one respecting the petition against the Brewers. lie had heard that some delay had been occasion ed, as the petitioners were not prepared to prove their case. If it was so, he thought it very ex traordinary that a charge of such a nature should have been made against such a body, if no proof was ready to support it. Mr. LocKnaaT said, lielia4 had some idea of bringing the subject before the House to•morrow. The delay was merely in order that he might as certain how the petitioners were to prove their Case. NEW C►iURCIIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the re-commitmemit of time New Churches Bill. Sir F. FLOOD wished that the advantages of this measure should be extended to Ireland. The Pro testant Religion had increased in that country, which was as productive of population as any place in the world., He thought the two coun tries had done much for each other, and he hoped that the reciprocity of obligation would continue. Ile was glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer had visited Ireland last summer, because he had seen the most beautiful, capital in the world. lle had seen palaces,‘ especially the palace of the Lord Lieutenant ; but he had not seen the No bility of the land ; they were all drawn off to this country, and left nothing in Irel: , nd but s misery and %wretchedness. It was quite right that Pro testunism should be supported in Inland by this plan,: as it had been before by grants for the re pairing of churches. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was sure that not.only that House, but the whole country, was always ready to acknowledge the merits of Ireland, and concur in any measure which might promote its interest. The Hon. Baronet was mis taken in supposing that this sum was charged upon the Consolidated Funil ; it was to be raised by a specifi c plan, not touching the Consolidated - - v or Fund at all. It was true that 50.009'. 3 c rbe had been voted since 1810, for the Supl )o ' l ° lo t Protestant establishment in Ireland, esecP t : of year, when the 311111 was 30,001, on accoo!itire, d if the embarrassed state of our finances ; land really wanted more Churches, lei the ri°' t l t e Baronet make it appear, and be was sur e 1, , ; House would,be ready to accede to a gra nt fort • purpose. tIV L Co louse then itself into the - mittee. ke pt Sir W.ScoTT objected to the clause r iot' to provide, that any twelve substartiat keepers, with the approbation o f t he 13. 53 4; might build a church and ammint a Minister. Lc, considered this clause as tendiog to encourage°, taries—to dislorb the tranouilliiy of the Ch arej a and to infringe on the rights of patrons. fig ll°Pe .. the clause would be withdrawn. ' r fi led W e :The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER tle' e- rile d the clause at considerable length, and coot e :"' that the Church ought to be allowed to o' o ' tse ili of the aids of private liberality, and the evilst-olt. cipated 'vete not likely to arise. Mr. WROITESLEY Op l iseii the c lause, n , to make serious inroad® on the rights Of the r),ls b - i blished Church. If this propoSition were t° o f pressed ; he hop e d i t wou ld b e m ad e the subje ct .th separate Bid, that the. p r e sen t ineasnre , . oi ."% l e a was so . generally approved, might not be : 6) 0 with that which-appe a r e d s o objectionabl ' e• Mr. BATHURST objected to the clausc. bd The CHAZ.:CELLoR of the Ex CHI?Qt..6 SA." g 'twelve honseholth rs w ou ld fi rs t certify t ii, d 4 they had the me-ans , of building a Church. t to • I Bishop most then be a ppli e d t o , w ho woo" . doubt take care to a3ce rt a i n th a t the ftPO /ic ' l‘ tji ' ' were well - disposed pet s on s, an d p osse ssed of „ eient plopeety 'in the parish. . h Mr. PEEL eottibt:iy concurred ‘V , t" 0 0 had been said against this clau se , an d could se reason why it should not b e s ep ara ted fry"' Dr. PH I LLlmottE supported the clause, bu t r e• obj, riot' to its being separated from th e I. l ;er sent measure, and made the subject of atto 8.11. s rid Sir M. W. RIDLEY op,posed the clause' thought it ought to be made the su bject "i s 5 prate Bill. Lord CA , TLERE %OH shortly stated the PY: it i c tia on which he supported the clause. 11— of ile wish that Disseuters should be t e mpted t o i c- t o , v • within the pale of the Ch urc h. li e •'loflgh t ' ever, that the nomination of the pt, 7 ° l si lr4 only be allowed to the subactibers for rite, f,r• turn; because, if it were a ll owe d to extent. Id titer, it would operate to deprive the the meaneof excluding improper persong• of . Mr. CaPPS said a few words which were not a udibl e ' c;alirre. We understaud that he opposed the clautie• too: r. V. FITZCiER,I,I) shortiy against, the :130 fie thought it very unwise that the great o bjects °I th ‘ should he endan. reed by continuing this Clans(' HWT Mr OLDSORH orposcti t he Clause. , Mr. B. 11 X" lURST suggested that solve antewonent t be wade to nrit.t. the Chtt , i. lss objectiroial.k• After.a few words front the e Clial;ctllOr of the r' ro y 1.10 -Mr. IVrottcsley, Sir Win. Scatt, amid Gi)uldba Conimittue divided— Ayes ........ ................ ....... Noes .............................. ..` 47 5 M.,jority against the Clause ........ The Chairman tlien reported pro , tcs , "" j a' leave to sit a!4ain. d The Cotton Facto; ies Bill was read a third fine, ar a few remarks from Mr; FiNLAY, „ as p a ssed. dto tic The Slave Tra,lit Bill WAS c,inivoitted, and Or dere 1.4 reported to-mo of rrow. „to , 'Flie Duke Carol:ridge and Duchess of G"" I '„ 1 0 . .Annuity Bilk went t tough the te es, and %ser- - l u r to be repotted to-morrow. t Pe."' The Irish Court Houses Bill was read a sc o " l ' anj be eoinmitted to-morrow. tin's' The Labourer s' Wages Bill was read a thlr d , Mr. 7 LusmucaoN obtained leave to hrinf.: „is it alter.the allowances to Glass Manufa c turers, for bees' e-i arid to exempt them from certain penalties. • Mr.. LUSIIINGTON prescut,d F et ition `l,r Fenner, a bookseller, .in Pat e r ims t er -row, aPi" ct .r.r , c d for girmg.Copies of _Works to the I.;nirersities . the Committee"of the Copyrii,cla • t off . SAC LEG a.-011 lloatf.ty hi ont last , °:, If on Tuesday moiniAg, felow ( rof rl broke open, mid entered ' the prrish Bucks, and stole ft out the vestil " ; ru r 1 . 16 silver chalice, a silver paten, ornamentell "uorly ce d n , t , re, a silver flagon, weighing 53 otwees,lifferi Iver," a silver plate or basin for ti le : (- v ia' .with gadrconed edge, with t he follo' v t "tl 0 " Pnrchased at the expell ee palish of her, for the use of the Conia l l fnt 17$4,'' a surplice, one best di +per table-el("idi' the communion-table, and a black linen 04'100 offered a string. The Churchwardens of lcc I l• 000 • d retvard of fifty pounds upon e°''' '' 'b - ery• of the offenders who committed the abov e rob b " t ° ATTEMI'TeD Suictoe.—Wedne , daY , P b o o'clock, a an of a very decent appearance)oor m S toe the mithile age, was ObSC VC(' t for oi ttl time by the Paddington Canal, a nd at throw himself into the w a ter. A I" rg o e rao ii : who was pas3ing by, with the assis"'n" WWI ,cyher man, succeeded in briiptilig 0(1- life. They took hint to a nei-kbon r . ing A:l eti. house, where be was put to bcd, and 111 1 "" time inquiries wt re made 'after his frien Els, caoare' were traced to Crawtord.street, Montaf,'"— Pob licet ll ,r he unfortunate tn... , n was form e rly is pr o' 1", by a series of ntisfoittines, lost all I)i,,•tea'.. perty, since which be has been in a state (1 4 t<tl (kr D ;scent . On Monday se'nnight, Mtlr'r e ',,l' an, i 8 years of tad the i nt rep , - -its i m ft ro l f ascend to the top of the spite a t (44. b ' e 0 " which 280 feet high, and, after tvit,,, it white I'3ll- ' 8 0 chief round the bath, he d:...seeoded will, accident . . At Fareham, BIR 2ampbell, 46th Regiment, ihtuzhter. . on Tuesday last, the Lilly ;If Lieu On Wedneslay DIED. . . . i s l; Cl,O aged 75' Henri' Clarke, 1,1:b. late Professor of l'"I.<00 ' &c. at the Royal Mi;itary C ollege. 1° e ot. tv( last ",by a mlexv at hi , 1:01%e a', ,;, ) Or ' ' On the tsith of October 1:14, it) the ir,a;t ri,41;,, cir . r stratfoid 1,1. Wiflienus, of the 15th ilegitoent Nildr3s ,Ajile lii brook-Hall,- ' a 11, eldest C'ard s‘ i;Vn 't. sh l i ' r i e u , ' S L o l ::t Y l i i i 11 ,1' . : : :. : 1 , 1 e i 5 1 . ' ') 3 ' Ir' sq • ci f / / t --------- --- ------- -- --- 're LONDON: Printed by 3. B. CARSTAIRS, of No. , 41- . ) ' Ormood-strect, Unceo-,lnare; 00:1 publishei , ; , I .'' ~, . 1; ., St'lllTS, of No. 7, South Nlolton-street, lt Ij or l ` Office, No. lie. Strand ; w h e re Ath l eitice4lc lirs) 1 irs) 1 Letters, &e. (p:At-raid) niu;t be addresse3. 1,1 1/ thd t j, '`\`