The Sun. — London, England, 1808-02-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL, PARLIAMEIV.4 HOUSE OF PEERS, THURSDAY, FEB. 1 1. BALTIC . EXPEDITION. Lord S!nit-avrii rose, and advertinl to an opinion which he delivered in the Debate of Monday last, on `the propriety and expediency of preserving the Dani,n Fleet m i,tich a condition of readiness as to be able to resi ore it, should a fit opporiunity arise, gave notice, that on this day se'nuight (Thursday next), ,he should move an Address to his Majesty, praying he would give direOlons, that the Danish Fleet be kept in such a state as not to preclude the poisinility teitoi - ing jt, should circumstances occur, tinder which it might be expedient to restore it.. AMERICA. Lord HAWESBULIY presented a number of rapers that had been Moved fur, respedieg the :relative .':iteration of this Country and America ; among others, the Message of the President to the House of Congress, and Copies of the Correspondence that took place between the American and die British Plenipotentiaries since the signing of . the Treaty concluded in December, 1806,----His Lordship mov ed that these Papers be printed ; which was ordered. Lord GRENVILLE then rose, pursuant to notice, to move for Tapers, which would tend to throw some light on the nature of the relations, as they now eXiSted, between this Country and Atnetica, and on the terms and tendency of the Treaty ,which, in December, 1806 ' was concluded between, the two nations. It had fallen to his lot to be engaged. mote than once in diScissions with the Ministers of the United States, and he had bestowed on what re-, garded the connexion and natural interests of the two States, all the attention, labour, and diligence, of which he was master, and which the high import ance of that matter so seriously imposed on. him. Indeed,, the cultivating and maintaining 'of a good-, understanding with America, an, understanding that included and promoted the reciprocal interests of the . two Countries, was, in his mind, the most material and important consideration that could possibly en » gage the attention of the British Government and Par, liament, next to the care of conciliating and nniting, in one bond of union, all descriptions of his Majesty's . Subjeds in these Kingdoms. He had of late taken oceasion, more than once, to express this opiimion, and he now wished to repeat it in the most serious and solemn manner. Ibis disposition powerfully, animated his views and hiS conduct, whenever any thing occurred that threatened to embarrass or inter rupt 'the friendly intercourse and connexion of the . two Countries. 16 the year 170, in consequence: of events to which the war that ,broke out in the, preceding year gave rise, he had to disetf4 and adjust some differences which then occurred with the Unit ed States. ,1t was his good fortune ;o have to deal in that transaction with a man (Mr. Jay) whose ta lents and disposition eminently qualified hire fur the oilice . he had undertaken. Never in the course of his public life had he met with a person on -whose pro bitk, candour, and sincerity, he telt he could so con fidently rely. Jay kh the .volue 0114 are trews- . sity of a close and amicable connexion between the two Nations; and he laboured mostiiitpartially duly to weigh, and to ascertain the real interests ()I both, These, unquestionably, are (inaliiicinitaii indispen. salsas neeessary to a Ne.oitiator ; and no neeotiation • cart be'faiflY earried, , excnt in a mutual spirit of justice and impartiality. trusted, that such .was the spirit which aanated thomegoOlatiOn at that time,' and which brought it to a sucessOtil termination : sure he was, that Mr. Jay aad of.,it these principleS; yet, when he r e turned to his awn pountry, he was accused, very unjustly indeed, of having sacrificed leer interests, or yielded too far in favour of those of 'England. Mr. Jay, has !Ong since retired from pubs; lie life ; but he felt happy in having this opportunity of paying a due tribute of praise to his charatier. Ever since he retired, lie had the same sentiments resped ing the propriety of continuing to maintain the best understanding v ith the United States, and of Mt pressing on.the mind of both ,Cauntries, how es sential it wits to the , independence, and welfare of both, to cultkate the most cordial and close connexion. Under the influence ,of this dispo sition were the late discussiens with America car ried On, and broUghr to what was expeCted to be a happy termination, When circumstances arose, that miry put try hazard the final issue. of that nego tiation. He had, much, to coMplain attic false light in which ignorance or malice had endeavoured to repi . esent it. His Noble Friends who Conduded that negotiation, with talents of which he could no t now speak as lie ought, becanso they were present, bad been reprmichen of having made unwarrantable and dangerous concessions to America—count:Mom which have bead causelessly and mischievously held out to 'The public as the bane of the, interests: Of Great Britain; yet while "hose reproaChes, were . vented "- against the Administration , at home, no sooner had the Treaty reached America, than Ihis Government of the [jolted .States was accused of baying yielded too much to the British Plenipoten,- tiaries. Even the Speech by winds the Session was Opened, contained .assertionN .respediug this Treaty, which were not eorrea. It Said the Treaty bad not taken effect by the refusal of the President.. to ratify it. Now the President had. nut refused to ratify it ; but deferred the ratifiCation as . tar as the ratification depended upon hiM„, became the Treaty contained certain articles, which though they were agreed upon between the respective Plenipotentiaries,; were not however!. Signed by them, because home further explanation, upon the points they contained was to be previously had, with the. American Go- vernmeni. I.\.s try the concessions that were said to be made in America, iii essential points, and.which were reprobated as the hue of the interests of Eng land, no asseVtion coulc tie mere unfounded. It was no doubt cliff - icon to say,. -what were or• were not the points which might be conceded, in balanc ing the niterests of the two. Commies. Since Ame rica Was deelared an independent `irate, many. points had arisen in discussions, whiele had never before been brought into agitation. IVeit of them might easily be adjusted by taLi t ig fur rule, time mutual advantages resulting from an amicable convention betWeeim the two countries; Lot in polkas that could be faidy considered us essential, never bad lie, nor thosewith whom he was Conned e.d, consented to Mirky any etnireßSlol.l. He consider ed as essential, what was connected with the pies•er vation of the naval power and preeminencc of this sT ~,,- r —vs 4. ~. __ s •. o gaint rrlil.l in a contest for the ass Mon pt her ii rigia4, .= ',.1 ti 1 tl, ty,. anti 604 4 .PP than that sheshOuld yi!eld a ;tittle Of4iirn • far these rights once given up, what;eoutg wou l ti she be afterwards able to carry on. They 'were conneded not only with- her power," but with lux very exist 7 ence as an independent nation ; and thL;retbre no man could . ever 'think of sacrificing them. ,This was his firm restitution, and nothing could to depart from it. No dangerous concessions had ' therefore been made to America in the hfte Treaty ; and when the two Governments came coolly to consider its nature and tendency,. they would dis cover that it equally conSulted the interests of hcith Countries, and that he would repeat, was the only basis upon which any Treatk'could be and tiermanently built. The Noble Lord then . entered into a minute examination, of the difficulties that result .to both-Countries frolls the prattice of search ing merchantmen. : From a thousand circumstances,, it must be 'obviaus . that . it was attended "nicire dififenities beiWeen American and British', Officers,,' than. bet ween'the"Officers of any other Nation ; but a spirit of candour, moderation, and mutual regard, which he could not totitbrcibly inculcate; ws.,uld•tend to compose every difference upon that head.. As to the right of searching national ship; of oar, it had: . never been assUnied, and should be'practised.— .The Noble Lord again implored the House seriously .to appreciate the value of ass uninterrupted amity and intercourse ~with America, and expressed hip. , anxious expedation that'the ,mind of the AnseriCansz:. would become cooler and more considerate, and that' this Country would meet Ahern with corresponding sentiments. His Lordship concluded with moving' " fig Copies of such Conuminiwtions, or Answers"; as had been received from the American Pletnpe tentiaries since the conclusion of the Treaty." Lord ILitI7i7ESI3URY most ,perfectly coincided in opinion with the. Noble 13aron; that an impartial regard to the interests of the two Countries was an, essential basis of this, or any other negotiation, and under that impression be trusted that he and his colleagues Were disposed to att. No man could be more impressed than he was with the necessity of cultivating a good understanding with, America,. and making her feel how indispensable was such a connexion fo the reciprocal interests of the two Countries. After having acquainted the Noble Baron that he did not intend to oppose his Motion, 4e did not cxped he would have gone so largely into the question.: but he , should not imitate his example, as he would now, and as he had-ou• fortper occasions, abstain from agitating any question re. speatng. America; as our relations with' the United States must soon come, in all th6ir beOrings, under 'the consideration of the House.- Some conversation then. arose, respecting further. Papers. called for by Lord AtIcKLANI), and about the inseparable , connexion between the subjeU of our relations with America and that of the Orders in Council, which, was!expeCted to conic under discus sion on Monday next. • The CHANCELLOR said, that when the subjed of she Orders of, Council came regularly before the souse he,. for one, would undertake to explain the nature of them. Nobie Lords had. been insisting that they were not only nnintelligible, - but that they were unconstitutional and unjust. Now, if they were wbolly.nninteingibie to those ;Noble Lordh, how could they discover that they were oti.. .constitutional and unjust ? LordslioLiAtp, (iIII±.NVIGI.E, and LALIDEPID.!,tit, persiSted in ,representing the Orders in Connell api. perfeelly unintelligible in their connexion with each, other, though it Might be easy to guess at their ge. .neral drift, and see the mischief With which they were pregnant. It was evident they required ex. planation ; and they were surprised that Ministers did not come. forward to.explain them. • Lord itrillKESß6 l llYreminded the House, that oat' farmer. occasion he had stated, that it was thouglik more regUlar to originate the business in an, other place, rand that when it came regularly .before their Lordships, then would it be his duty to explain the nature of the measnre,which it was the inten-, tion of his Majesty's Government to ground Upon these Orders: The question was then at upon Lord Grenville's Motion, and agreed to. AUSTRIAN AND RUSSIAN MEDIATION. Lord GREY rose 'to Move for several Papers, from which .he, expected =that some, information might be' derived, with regard to the spirit and the views with whioh Russia and Austria had undertaken to propose their respeawe mediation betweetaranee and this Country. it was, evident, from the peru sal of the documents alreadyrbefore the House, that between Barmt Rodberg's second Note," and thetone that followed, ,some answer must have been made by our Ambassador at St. Petersburgh, which, how ever; did not appear. it was materhff , that the , House should be in possession of that answer, as it must have made some reference to the charges brought by the Russian Minister against ,the Govern,- mem of this Country for neglect in assisting our Ally, which charges, if well fhtinded, it was the duty of Ministers to have brought forward in a dirt , tinct form, and not to get them thrown in loose inr sinuritiona against the condua of their predecessors'.. He should therefore Move.for the production of that Answer. in order to judge of ',the nature of the Austrian and Russian Mediation, it was alsonecessary that further intertnation should be aftbrded; it appear ed, that as far back as the mouth of April last, an offer of mediation .was made on .the part of Austria. llt also appeared, that a Minkter Plenipotentiary:was milord) , after from this Country to the Court of. Vienna, the objet of whose inission was no doubt conne6ted with the proffer ot: Austrian mediation. — Now had no communication been made to,Cioyerp., ment upon that head by this Minister. Plenipoten tiary—it -was hard to believe there had not .it would be therefore proper to lay these commttnica -110111 before the House. Much later, not only a enr.., rospondence, but several conversations had taken place upon. this subject, between .'Prince Stahretn berg and our Secretary for. Foreign Affairs. Them was no minutes of these conversations laid before I..thel4ouse. The I lonse 'was only in possession of "a short and petulent ansWer, by which his corre 6 ,. pondence was terminated: Now he should think it necessary that all these 1110,11 . i of 1010:'111AtiOn be suninitted .W the Liotte., The House had the respectable authority lig believ ing that the 'Ent pcor of WA:gin W 419 Silleere and anxious in his endeit- yours to mediate a peace betveen this CouatiAr and France. Upon the same authority, of his Noble I: iend tippeared thee tie! :Irate t seivef.e.tefrieth inferior in number to their epee. • e • ;tete efeeVreneh army was in evert et lie• ce - tee ' Ilicee were !elites st.elich fete el,. 1 . 141!i.01:14. it '‘'‘'l,4 Of Consequence 4o ro,iin. not/. litiejial k l.:llierolore rnove for the Minute of th e Cnneersation upon them. which took piece in Aug, last, - bet weenthe'ET-perorAlexarider and -Lord:flute chinson, But-.the topie inefp which he -ucible Lord' chiefiy.insisted was the ehareea brought against the. late Ministers by the Itncsian Goeernment, mid urged ! in the Russian Declaration. These charges were ree dueible to two the iiegled of that Aelmihistration. to make any military diversiett in., favour of their Ally, the Emperor- Alexandee ; tied their refusal to facilitate and pienbete a loan- in this country its sop-, 1: Oche of . the, 'Government. Mach stress as `had been laid on three eharges at different, tines and in, (Itfereet „places, it was no arduous undertaking. to refute theta. Re would ask the Noble Lords op. • posite, - at whet period e eand a what points,.eees it praeticaele 'for • the Erie Ministers, to attempt these diversions ? He was at a loss at what points such a diversion could he made but on the-coast of France, 'the coast of Holland, the North of. Germany, or to the south on the Neapolitan -coast. As • to expeditions against the French coest,.he believed the most sanguine had long since cooled in their hopes.of any success in that quarter. Against Hol land and the 'North of 'Germany where, wasehere any rational hope of ? At neither ,point did : We possess a gingko, - ettongeslace to over a', landing, or guy . -tat to :establish mage'zinete Besides, 'hid we even poeseiselt . hese necessary means,woitld the season At „which sech diversiOns were required have allured any reflecting man to hazard them ? It • was said, indeed,• that' the weather was unusually mild,' and that something might have been cione the Bible. , •Wherer?•Troope, it was argued, might have been sent.to ‘Stralsund e and essistatice thee given to the Swedei. • It was not then proposed to sand., -more than 10,000 men. Whet could such ‘a force.. be :expeEted to effe4-.1, especially after We have seep what has since followed. But although the season was mild, were we therefore to trust to the uncee , tainty of the weathcr e and send an Expedition into the Baltic '(lint mightbe. frozen up„encl, exposed' to the most trying hardships and fatal privations ? Above all, would it be advised by those. who: were so well acquainted -with the hostile. dispositiert of Denmark to expose, a. force that must pays Crme- , higenemnd that nnast be indebted for its sale : return, , And for every communication with home, to the free and unmolested aavigation of the Sound ? And were 'not Ministers aware of all these diffieultieS ? Must not the public': be sensible of them upon the slightest refleAion ? Vet a cry was sent, abroad, that the late AdMieistration had betrayed their Allies, and left them:without co-operatioh or assistanee. Yet would it be credited, that Russia had never made any re quest for any particular military assistance; nor had the late. Administratieu entered into any precise are rangemente to afford any such assistatice They only assured. Russia, that, should-any 'fair opportu-' pity arise to afford such assistance, it would not he withheld, but sent off with the utmost alacrity aal speed. Yet, it' such assistance had beau afforded, and.that even to the utmost extent whieh it,was pos sible for this Country to afferd, (lees any one be lieve that it ceeld have checked the - progress c-f the French arms, or prevented any Of mite. faud•evente that have taken -place. Such an idea cannot surely be now indulged .after hearing. what had fallen, On , former night from his • Noble Friend,. Lord .Hutchineon..• Was it in the South of Europe the .diversion should be made ? Was it on the Coast of Naples ? After what had befallen the , fish troops ip that quarter, in the year 1805, beeves. surprised to hear such an insinuation front the present Ministers. What was the result of their diversions at that point ?: But even if there. had .an upeaeloo occurred, the means were present to etftei a diver- , Rion. General . Fox and` Sir John MoOre !, .1 a gal lentSorce under their cammand; and they had in strktions to use it, if they saw any &ince em ploying it with effea ; bat they declared that no such opening appeared practicable to therm) ; and he believed thateheir authority . on such points the No ble Lords would not be disposed to dispute. Was there then any fair grOund :all these .charges of negle& ?- • But still it Was argued, 'why not send pe mutiny assistance. to your Allies ? Why not ward the loan which Ressia requested .you to ne:!,o tiate for her ? Was the House acquainted with tee nature Of that proposal? The anssian 4 NanbaPisadOr intimated time wish of his Court to negotiate a ~loan of six millions in this Country. , When the par ticulars of the proposal came to be inquired info, it was found., that no security and guarantee , what., ever Wee offered :l(,r the payment of this loan.--e It seemed' as if the Russian Minister imagined that he had only to go into the City of London to call for a loan of Six millions, and that it would, be im mediately complied with. But he made the eeperi ment, and no one appeared to comply with the- pro posal ; Now would the House have advised the then Ministers to have given the guarantee of Go evei potent for so large a sum ? Have they end the Country forgot the, experience taught them by time Austrian Loan ? 1-lave they not had reason. to be lieVe, that it is mbeh better to grant money by way, of subsidy than byway of loan, and had that loan of six millions been tiegotiated here on the guarantee of the, British Gevernment, might it not shortly .have become necessary for Russia to negotiate . a separate peace, and, as soon, perhaps, declare war eaainfit• Feegland ? Who -then trust. make .good,:t c he lean ? and under what circumstances , should Ministers. themselves be obliged to go into the market to provide tneens for the exi gencies of our Govenment ? These were things 1 with which the Honse was hot ,generally • ace quainted, and which, when known, must. etre& them in a different light from what was intended by the false remonrs that have been so industriously circulate d on this head. Neither was Sweden lea Without en couragement. It was proposed to" Sweden, that - if she could increase the force' then employed near the scene of attics's, and augment it with twenty-hve thousand men, which increase was then thoneet necessary.; Wotiktincreise, evete doeble, flee Sebeidy alrteee proposed. But Swedee.waseeot eWt' , to aceomplish tlett 01,;ea. whe r e homrwere beasied chaiges of ttegle& of their allies, so t t3 l: lc r i : l' c ''t.'4k c i :: : t .i r t l '',i l l e t'g i da s:; tfri l t l r upon mature take of beiog reprehensible, most, foPnd prudent •anO praise-will ta i . islclhle Lord hoped the House would pardon him for troubling them so far, hut they *mild-feel the subject was such as not to allow him to remain silent on it. He then .included with :moving for .the different Papers to which he had alluded. Lord HA IPICESBURY said, that however desire able pease . may- hess.if... Wesel ways mischievous to dee, lode the gublit with the phantom of knegotiation .• frOm no reasonable hope could beenferolinedt* Without. the communication of the basis on which Frince was disposed to treat, end of- the Secret Arm - des of the Treaty. of:Tilsit, s it was impossible to count op any goreieffett 'from the mediation of Ruse via. Baron De Budbeeg'admitted by implieetion that some of the Secret Articles of Tilsit did apply to Bri tain: for what hesaid Its Lord Gower was,that some of thern did not apply to. Britain, and:there was lioollo requiring Russiaeo. shut, her ports against British commerce, except on the event of certain circetri; steneeS not likely to take pthce. • • He contended toe Answer to, the Peissiati Declaration did netaoru pnrnise the late. Ministers: .He :did not blame them for not being ready -to assist Prussia, con. sidering the . extiaotninary circunislancia' .i..under which' the war betWeeti. Prussia and Fritnet broke Out. Neither did,' he accuse them of holding out assurances ef. aid to. Russia ; but there. Weis some thing like half assnra nees upon which ex ee elation was entertained,' ,whiail ought not to have' betel oeld cot • unless the aid 'w eto have been given. He di , 4 1 i)t blanje' the late :vine - stets for not iitegotiating a loan of six millions fur the 'Hessian GOVeininetil , : Wit he thought , a Treaty of SubSidy ought to . hare, hevo-""*, gotiated with that Power, .even to the l enount."'. half that 'sum. A • simple reltisal to negotiate the loan was certainly offensive and unwise. ide cal", denaned. the late Ministers tbr not giving immediately upon the favourable evetits atteneing„ the :opening of the Liet cain i ,egn. (It was asked," from the opposite side,when 'were they fat odraule?) If after the battles of Pultosk , atid Lviau, a resliMa able British force Was senteto ete•operatte with-Swe. den, by creating a titeeetieej i .ite the rear of the French' andthes-teklue. e*pattlit 'the pressere of the whole French force otf Russle, Europe might have heed • saved. Even if' an army had, been collected uh this Country, and tran'spOrta, prepared for shipping them , Buonaparte-must • have in, some •drgeei; diverted his force and his attention to watch then). But bee:tiers there was no movement ()ferny kind here, tie drain ed France of every thieg eta the conscriets, and caleied everyman fonts* Holland and Italy 10 ever .= whelm Russia. With. these opinionie...disapproving - in some points or the conduct ptirsued by the.late Ministers, the present Government held not 110 W,, ever compromised their!, as had been iesinuated; on the contrary, they had, replied generiely to thel allegations of the lleisaian Declaration, and back argued,' that even if they were , inatle out, they — would not warrant the coochisions dedneed front' them. Heviag said thus lie wished, as to as it was pratticable autleiroper, to. nt3 produc e Lion of the Pampers Movecleor by the Noble. Lord' He. suggested some amendtrients in training the motions, so as to ecconimodete them to %vita could be produced. 'The Earl of 11101R.4 thought the demand of the commutiication of the Secret Articles of the Treaty' of Tiliitunreasonable, and contrary to the 'very na ture of orteof the obligations tinder - which those itri tides were entered ihto. Why slits rd nication of these. Articles be more necessary in t he mediation of Russia, towards peace with I.?einceo than for . the sauce mediation for peace with lieu - • mark, which we solicited ? Denmark as well as Rnisia was a party to the supposed combinative with France at Tilsit. With. reapeCt to the loan to Ruse sia, he thought it could not be grained Melte pro.' sent circumstances of the Country. A subsidy etaa offered, but •Ituqgia wat averse to taking money ia that shape: The - business, , however, was still pend.' ing, when the .late change in Admitristration took' Place. With reaped-to' the propriety of litary aid upon the favourable events,iii the v04 04 4' of the late campaigo; lie kneW ;of no stieleeveno• The battles of Pultusk and Eylatf Were t!,0( 11 ' plote defeats. He was averse to seeding Brie tish Expeditions at ',et vast expencee to echiera objet' of comparatively little utility. . Beat' sure •no good etfeet. wctltld.. lowa tellosved sending an ,Exped;t.iett to theeßaltiejti the case al bided ti), • T4e , Orily chance for sat iee Europe. jfl er the battle of Eylau,was, if the (;.,in t o t Alist is could i hti induced to march its' airt4y deem the left bank of the Elbe in the rear of the French, to intercept their 4114)116 and their retreat, . While Russia attacked them in front. The capture of Buenos Ayres, thol lz effeeted without the, keowledee or orde:rs of vernment, required a supply of British trool) 9l° ' be sent to preserve it,' but, unfortuna te ly; that supp i l d Orne too late. I t w ou ld h ave been clitlicolt to ms . a suffiCient Dritish force, and 'if that' forcele . t tl bey , , sent it would r i ot have beim able to do",enyetervice. Lord Ht in WINS Oh 'stated Pultusk and Eylau, tholigh claimed as victories by the Russians, ter the purpose as theacustein in a:l warS, of keeping up the sterns of their PeoPh . ';. • were, in fact, disastroes defeate.'• The baktie 't' " a Eylau, in particular, had every charaCteristieb, ue vie lbrY• The Freneh took the priecipal ma;n i..l " l , l of the Russians, remained in poSseacion of h eir that the battles of e of battle ten days, then retired only'to secure the'. cantonments, and to - form the - siege of one fortress and the blockade Of another.' He had the high ei . l respect for thc elmssian artily ; its Courage w O5 e q t / - to that of any other in the worn!; • but that WO t' Ye only thingin svhie ti it was equal to the French; in null bets it was infinitely inferior. After the retreat of th° French from Eyinu, it was proposed to him that an Li t " . tack should be made on the French line to drive theiad beyond the Vistulaorid thence back to the 'Elheel' e t ' it was with' a view taco-operate with this attack" r"' it first occarred hiM that at British. army . iii .merania couldbe of use. But about this tiT O positions for a separate peace were Made to r lll , e -, 4 * - ;, and the conferences were carried . on for five"'*. e ; i 4 ; • - ‘vithoet any" cominunieation to hitri. • Alartned.at t" BUt he wrote to put Goverement omits g uar d ! , cn General Zastrow afterwards satisfied him, sb!',7 it to aSsertmee from the -Russian C re nniander!' when t luiperialOuards should coolcup they %%`° 1 11 11, ..., to superior in numbers to the Frietch, and lb' o, geinti atteek would be milde,,tie wrote the first OP' t tahiei .lo his Goveetiment, recomn i tenditig to send 8 pry force to the Contioent : thisatisoaleh • imq' ear March. He, however, was deceived as to ibc tact of the Russian arms , at -all approaching *