The Sun. — London, England, 1818-04-14 00:00:00

ment out of the DI oit s of Atlinirally, or any Est t. , :.(1. CAsTLERRAGo did not intend to oppose -the ;+;otion, h t it must he postponed till the re sent questiiin sh.+++ld he decided. Mr. NI A. 'l AY thout:ht the mode adopted by .Ylinis',le,r, to call riifferent :Members together, art tt.ke th , ,•;r opioion repectlug what grants st old , + be o:,de ,ot Of the public mooey, obiectionable. No man was mole attached 11+0n 1 it to the 1-louse of _Brunswick, but he also louked to the interests and the happiness of• the people. He considered what, the finances of the country wonk allow to be paid in taxation. And •,vho, after hearing the late diseussit:-as on the Leativr Tax, would dare to say that the present period was not a very unfurtuna'e one to apply for fresh ntovisi - ons ? Mr, Cutt. , vESl trusted that the House would not be called noon to vote one single shil , ling till after the Ctianccllor of the. Exchequer had laid before it a detailed sta!i:men( of the Supplies, and Ways and Means of the year. 111 r. BRAND conic] see no reason why the Noble Lord should not mention, the amount of the grants proposed. Lord CASTLEREAGH thought that it would be unfair, as well as w , sliisfaCtory to the to state the stuns proposed,: without being able to enter. into all the , ,requisite .details and ex , . platfations. Lord LAsnELLEs said, that he was one of those who had attended time meeting alluded to during the early part of the discussion. He thought he should not take too, much. upon himself if he stated that what had transpired there had not mar with the sati•laction of several others besides himself. Ile would not say more at present, but he would repeat that in what he had men tioned he had not stated his own feelings alone. • Mr. L I TTLETON - wished to know whether the proposition to be submitted to the House in cluded more individuals than ere mentioned in the Mesnige ? Lord CASTLEREAGH was understood to decline giving an answer. Mr. BENNET asked whether his Majesty's Mi uisters had nut conitwinicated to their Selert . Committee that they intended to propose 19,000/. in addition a year to one, or the Royal Dut“..s, besides 19,0001. outfit, and 12,0001. a year to each of the others?. After a few observations front Sir C. Moncke end Calcraft, no answer having been return, ed, the motioli was at:rzed to.' Lord CA , TCEIiBAbii then. moved an Address to tie Prince Regent, thanking his Royal Highness for his mos . (' gracious Message iespecting the in tended martiages of hisßoyal Highness he Dake of Clarence with the Princess of Saxe Mciningen, and ()is Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge with the Princess of Hesse; expressing the entire satisfaction of the House at the prospect of alli ances ,ith Protestant Princesses of such illustri pus Houses, and assuring . his Royal HighnesS of its attachment and readinessio make the provi sions required, with a-flue regard to the import ance of any measure which might tend to secure the Succession to' the Crolim in his ithije'sty's.ll - House. Lord STANLEY wished to know whether there Was anv inlitanee 111 wnicn ~,te s of the -7 1 - 1,, "0 , bad been extended to individuals who had not been rnentioned in the Royal Message ? • Lord CASTLE R RAG H said, that the Address Which he had proposed merely expressed the sa tisfaction of the House .at the communication which it' had received, wi , trout pledging it to countenance any grant which might be brought forward subsequently. It would remain open to the House to vole them or not, as it would think proper. Mr. BROUGHAM did not yield to the Noble Lord in alrecti , fri towards the House on the Throne. But he wouLl not on that account ne glect his duty to the people. The Address pledged the House to.maLe provisions with a due regard to the importance of such measures as might tend to secure the - succession to the Throne; but with out a word respecting the regard tine to the state of the people. He therefore should propose to introduce-the following words into the Address:- 44 And with a due regard to the present btathened st.ite of the people of this country." Lord CASTLEIZSAGH did not think the amend ment necessary. It would seem to imply that there was an indisposition on the part of the Crown to attend to the wants and burthens of the people. Sir G. MATHCOTE briefly supported the amend ment. Mr. TIERNEY contended that the amendment would not plvdge 4ny Member to any. particular line of conduct in the discussion of to-morrow. The House knew that a meeting:of Members had been called' by Ministers ;, that to this meeting they had stated what they intended to propose to morrow ; and the House also knew, front the best authority, that . these propositions had been con sidered by several as unfit to be entertained. Un= der such suspicious circumstances should not the House take at least one guard against committing itself too far The Gallery was then cleared for a division, but the discussion "was carried on for a consider able time after strangers had retired. The House, however, at last divided— For the Amendment (13 Mainst it Majority for the et igioal Address . — —5l On our return to the Gallery, we found Air. METHPEN moving for Retuins of all Incomes received by their Royal Highnesses the Dukes of Sussex, Kept, Cumberland, and Cainbt idge, aris ing (ruin military, naval, or civil employments, tvitlt Pensions and other emoluments ; and in cluding all (4runts made to them from the Ad miralty, Droits, from the year 1800 to the present • time. . . . ... . Tile CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHE'QiIER proposed some alteration io the motion, the nature of which could not, be heard. , . ... r. and Mr. 3. P. GRANT opposed it. IJr. l'!itclUGHAk Iroped it wouLl be seen what were the emolnmeots.of tlte Duke, of Cambridge ; and if 'bete were no iit ber person wbo4ottld make the statement, the Royal Duke enitld at any pat: ftirisi)li it ,I4itaiself,.. i e woqti be as ready as any man to agree to whatever was H ahsolotely neces sary to support the Thiyal Duk - es„in all the splen dour hecomin:! their elevated state; but tv.heit they made applic:itiO , s for money, it ought to be as certained that they !tad no more than tvqs neces sary so to mainlain them. It, them etore, then have means not generally known, it surely would not be siid that they - ought not to he (Atli into the account. He thou 44a Chat .~hat arose fr.otn ilanovei ought to be reckoned into the account, 53.'00 inriner occasions, it was very considerahte. The. CHANCELIOIt of the EXCHEQUER WaS HH- Ocrsti)o(l to ?ay„ .. ,...ritat it would he tor the consi• det.tiOo thOlOnse Whether any such imptiry could be ma e. Mr. Fox was eotirely aganist invity %viten it was proposed to be wade into the income of the Prince of , Thequotion was then aertect to. .• CALL OF TIU HOUSE. Mr. PROTHEHOE, alluding, as tvtis Supposed, to the sane subject, there being such a contusion in the House that it was impwisible to tear dis tinctly, considertd the question to he of such im portance, that in order to ensul e ai full attend ance in its future disrlis-ion, Ile should move that on Friday, the 24th instant, the lipase be called over. lbe.'wotion was agreed rn. GOLD AND SILVER COTNACiE. Mr. J. P. GRANT moved tor various accounts relative to the quantity of Gold and Silver Coin issued font. the Mitt in 1817. the quantity de livered to , he Bank, the quantity issued from thence, and that issued from the Mint otherwise than to the Bank. Also, Accounts of the prices of gold and silver in liars, Spanish dollars, &c., the course of exchange at Hamburgh, Lisbon, and Paris, in 1816, 1817.---A g reed to. Mr. TIERNEY tViSlied to know, when might be expected the accounts of the state of the Conso lidated Fond, and when it was likely that the Irish Account would be presented ? He wished to see the charge on the Consolidated Fund; f o r the purpose of paying the dividends due the sth of April. He alludtd, ir. a low voice, to the obser vations he had made last Sessions on the finan cial arrangements of Ministers, and argued, that so far from our having got out of debt last year, we hail got in debr. The deficiency of the Sink ing Fiord was 3.500,0001. After some further observw ions, which could not be connectedly heard, the Right Hon: Gentleman concluded with moving fora!' Account of the . extraordinary charge payable out of tie Consolidated Fund, from the sth January to the sth July, 1818. The CHaNcELLoR. of the EXCHEQUER entered into some explanations across the table, amongst which he appeared to deity that there had been any enrroachments on the fond The accounts would prove, that in the account of the Sinking Fund for the year, only eleven - months were taken, according to the new arrangement that included Irelatol, instead of twelve. If it bad been a twelvemonth's account, it might have appear td that more had bc,:n takers than belonged to the year. After some further conver3ation, Mr. TIERNRY withdrew his moljon, to give time, as was under , stood, for making out the accounts. . Lord A. IHaMILTON' moved for returns of all persorrs who had held the offices of Commissaries Commissaries' Cierks in:Scotland, front friary, I 814.—Agt een to. Sir J. INIAcKINTosu asked why the lists of •pci soils prosecuted for lotgery by the Bank had not been presented ? Tl►e CHANCFLLOR of tl►e EXCEIRQUER said, directions had been given for making out the ac cour►ts Mr. W. SMITH Own& the delay might be oc casioned by the negligence of some individual amongst the several who were charged with m a king out the accounts. • Such delays had been detected on other occa•ions.. 11FNNET seemed to think the trouble greater than Gentlemen were aware of. It took him three day's hard labour to stun up the number of per sons sent to Botany Bay for a certain number of years. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. On the Report of the Ordnance E-itimates being brought op by Mr. Brogden, Mr. BENNCT resumed the, subject of the hard ship sustained by the reduced ()dicers of the Ar tillery Drivers, and repeated :ill the arguments he advanced on a former evening. It had been stated, that eight out of twelve troops had been disbanded ; but the fact was, there were twelve troops ; six were disbanded in 1814, and six re tained. The difference was, that the four troops that remained were composed out of the six that had been disbanded. They were all broke"alike, and therefore were all entitled to some allowance. All he asked was, that two"more corps should be placed in the•same situation as - those that remain. ed ; and if this %% ere not . done, he should wake a motion on the subject. Lord COCHRANE Could not conceive why any distinction should he drawn between those a f., ready reduced to half-pay and those that were to he redUced. •Ile entered into a statement of the parr; case of Captain Httoipliries, whose certifi cates of service he had in his hand, and which proved that he had saved a whole brigade of Sir John Moore's army.. He then alluded to a de duct ion of the bounty limn the persons belonging to those corps who . were pin on half-pay, and \vim, from being wounded at Waterloo, were en titled to a shilling a-day, hut since . - their reduc tion their pension had been reduced to 6d. per day. lie was sorry that there was not that re gard r-id to individual cases that there ought to he. Ile hoped these Officers would receive that justice which was due to them. Lord CARHAMPTON said it was / his intention to attend the Committee on Friday, but he could not get to the House in time. lie was surprised that any .Gentleman should. advocate the charges in the Ordnance Department, There, was 50001. voted for making good thc,darnage done at Portsmouth, and in his opinion 5001. • would have been too mod). It was the Board of Ordnance that the public ought•to look to for substantial savinks ; for, as bad been said of the influence of the Crown, the usurped power of the Ordnance, and its enormous expenditure, had too long " in creased, was increasing, and ought to be dimi nished." The whole exl,enditure . of the Ordnance Board ought to he decreased one-halt in England, and tn•o-third; in Ireland. He would spew the House and the people that this was the Establish ment that they must insist on having . reduced. sir. R. %Vann said, that with respect -to the question that gave rise to this debate, it must be ►rnderstood that it was totally out of the power Of the House, in the present state of the business, to vote this money. But the Honourable Gentle man might bring it forward in the shape oh an Address. He the►r proceeded to deny that the obiervations made by the Noble Lord (Carhamp too) and the Honourable Gentleman opposite were well founded ; bot as the subject had al ready been hilly discussed, it would only be con suming the time of the House to say any more about it. , The Resolutions were then read a second time; and after some explanations from Mr. ‘Vatto, to show the necessity - of the Grant for inimediately rep-iirlng the (lam-age dote to Portsmouth Hat hour by the storm of last mouth, the Re.port was agreed to. A converse.tion ensued between Sir JOHN New' PORT,' the (211ANCELLOR Of the ExcnEettnu, and Genci'al THORNTON., Ott the Irish Saving Banks Bill, in which several hints were offered for mak ing that measure henefi,7ial. The Spanish Treaty Bill was read a second time, and committed for 0-morrow. OFFENDEit"' CONVICTION REWARD BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this 13111, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, he must give his opposition to this Bill, because its principle was the abolishing altogether the rewards given for the apprehension of offenders'. These rewards had been enacted in succession, at a great num ber of times; and with considerable distances be tween them, for the purpose of promoting the vi gorous apprehension of offenders. Jr was impos sible however to expect, but that offences would be committed. It should be reflected on how many persons had been . brought to punishment who never would have been apprehended but for the encouragement offered by these Acts of Par liement. lie could not quarrel with the prin ciple of the Bill, on the notion that these rewards bad induced persons to stimulate others to com mit offences. Ile did not mean to deny. that some persons had been guilty of these crimes ;- but there must, on all occasions, he a balance of good. ,It was necessary there should be some sti mulus to make persons apprehend offenders, and this was by giving them a reward for-so doing ; for it was impossible men would make such meri torious exertions for the sinall pay they received as Officers, and the inducements they would have to put themselves in situations to detect cri minals would be done away with by this Act.— The instigations had been supposed .to have hap pened much oftener than they bad. His own ob ject in altering the law would he, to reward for the apprehension ; but that the giving of the re ward, or the refusing of it, should be left entire ly to the discretion of the Judge who tried the criminal. 'fh.us the stimulus would not be taken away, and the offence of inducing others to Com mit crimes would be diminished. It the Judges thought they were not entitled to the 401. they might remunerate them with a lesser sum ; and where a man happened- to be killed in pm - suit of an offender, the money Might he given to his ex ecutors. He was sorry, for the rea'sons etc had stated, that he must oppose - Ihp um: - Mr. W. SMITH thought the Bill had better be read a second time, and the principles kid down by the Learned and Hon. Gentleman he proposed in the Committee. He agreed with him in most of his conclusions, though not in his inferences from the rewards having existed so long. lie had no objection to leave the distribution of the rewards-to - the discretion of the Judges, only that he doubted whether it would not by degrees come into the hands of subordinate persons, and the duty be slurred over. He thonglft in the law, as it now stood, the scale was precisely o pp os ite to what it ought to he ; for the greater reward should be given for bringing the lesser criminal to justice, and, vice versa., on the principle of pre vention being better than punishment. He could not admit the propriety of the term meritorious, as applied lxy the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, to the conduct of those who sought money by bringing offenders to justice. It was, on the con nary, a great mural demerit ; •for they were nine times in ten guilty of a greater moral offence than the culprit they apprehended.' lie trusted the House would allow the Bill to be read a se cond time.—The ATTORNEY-GENERAL explained. Mr: BENNET defended the principle of the Bill. He felt be was placed heal' awkward situa tion by Leine; opposed to his Majesty's Attorney- General ; but he could assure him that every Gen- . tlentan and Magistrate who bad attended the Po lice ComMittee, had-concurred in the absolute cessity of abolishing the system of- rewards ; and all of whom gave a greater number of reasons'for 'the abolition than the Learned and Honourable Gentleman had advanced against it. The odious appellation was a stigma upon the officers, and if there was no other reason, against the system, this was enough. The Hon. Gentleman then read a list of the number of prosecutions for bur glary at the Old Bailey, as svell as at all the late Circuits, arguing from the ettomous number, that the principle was the same all over the country, which induced men to apprehend and even to en trap others, in order ((5 get a sum by their convic tion. ,At the Old Bailey there bad been no less than 105 capital indictments, and 45 convictions. If provision were made for the expellees and costs of those who came forward for the prosecution, he thought enough would be done. Fixed re• wards he considered the greatest blot in the pre sent system. Such rewards bestowed for a vi gorous seeking out of offenders, proved but too often rewards for a vigorous creation of .crime. Those who received 401. 501. or in some cases 601. a year out of them, were obliged on princi ple to declare against fixed rewards. They served but as a bounty to encourage wicked and design ing men to take offences to the rank of capital crimes, which, but for these, would never have been considered as . such. If a •child of nine or ten years of age picked a pocket, instead of being indicted for picking pockets he was brOoght to trial for it robbery. Not many months bad passed 'since two children, who, he believed, were now in Newgate, one of whom was but the other thirteen yeats of age, were convicted a capital crime on the evidence of another ,e 1 who was but six years old. He had no norg ' doubt than he had of his 'standing there, that tbc: offence they had committed wthild• never .101 : 6 4 been raised to the scale of a-capital crime,if t " - present system had not offered the officers ti'r, e ; - ward of 40/. upon conviction. He hoped Bill would be suffered to go to - a Committee, he considered a change of system necessary:tOtm honour and character of the country. Mr. Alderman•WOOD considered the evil to be' gin wi•li the reward of 71. given for the conviee i( l, of persons charged with passing bad money• had found 13 persons in Newgate who were c on °, victed of this offence.- Among them t here Germans, Swedes, Frenchmen, and TrisT lie n gl is who had been met lay . a• person on Tower- 11 " inveigled to pass bad money. Froin, their ig" ° ‘• ranee of the language, and other circomstancese; they could baldly know what they were abo o (r -do, when they were taken by an officer w l t o c i ; ways accompanied the person he had menti ooe f for that purphse, in order to gain the rewa rd-n o ' 71. paid on the conviction of each. These fse,si he had stated to Lord Sidmouth, and he colue. prove them by evidence. It was one of his : iv officers-who had participated in this crime , an its coming to his knowledge, he (Mr. N17°0010%1 immediately caused hint to he discharged, o, approved of the present Bill, and thought it P , ;;.• gable that the Right Hon. Gentleman 01)1 1° ' 1 i did not know of the struggles which freVell',tfi' took place in .a Justice Rontll, - ftoin the anYkie of the officers and witnesses - to get the oee ds ;,, committed by the Magistrates tor - a capital n ' t, fence. If a Lady was rokbed•of her tidicole,'.l having it snatched out of her howl, as held it loosely, there eras probably no stroggl and the offence was not capital. But if sh e 111 ,,4 . . had the string of it twisted round her arm, it ") ' then contended that violence must have been ase,ocl and a struggle to get the prisoner c o m mitted. • the capital crime took place. In some instances::: Police Officers employed Cotinsel at their ( " 4. 0 expense against prisoners.- While the office were thus eager to procure a capital convic ttn i i they little cared to take those for casting - of %r" u iil there was no reward . . He hoped the Bill vo be allowed to go to a Committee. • tile Colonel Wool) thought the House an Ai( ' Country much indebted to those Gentlemen had brought forward those enormities which ' 11 , ' , - Li t proved to lia‘T been committed under our p re , e d Police system. He strongly disapproved of " o ld rewards, and thought it desirable that they 511 0 rt 4 be wholly done away. If this Were dote, provision made for indemnifying prose cutors their expen.6.es and loss of time, our Police ut'nu be much better regulated. t ip Mr. HURST wished it to be remarked, t" - ;ott the course of the debate, not a single 011 .j ec tz tj ;11, had been urged against the principle of the re The Attorney-General had only objected to b °l e . of its details. lie strongly defended the to en ' nf The SoLICITOR-GENERAL said, his L earne d Friend had not objected to the abortion of. fir rd rewards. There might, however, be.cases vt'11!.11 persons bad meritoriously come forward, io t b it would be very desirable that rewards sit o nja given. It might be desirable that Judges sh, have the power of doing this, and of detertnin“?;; where reward. Oa. Only object ofj ItL parttes who appeared against a prisoner, t not be allowed. Mr. BENNET stated this to be what be vris j es to effect by - the present Bill, and read t"""zt $ clause containing a provision tO that effect. The SoLICITOII -6HNERAL explained. rt Gcnerd THOSNTON wished the Court the power of grantinmewards 011 convictions Jur small crimes. Sir T. BARING spoke in favour of the Bill , 'v hic ii i ; was then read a. second lime, awl ordered i° committed on Privately Stealing Bill was r e° • third time and passed. EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR. dowse Mr. Alderman Woon moved, that the should go into a Cominittee on the Acts ° I o - r A 26th and 27th of the King, for managing IF a 5 ships in Ireland. t ree Mr. GRED7FELL thought the Bill w hich lie Honourable Gentleman wished to found. f i te e Acts which i they were now to go i nt() a coinow upon, was not merely a Bill for the emploYl e .,o of the poor, as the object of it was to leg a ' lO Joint Stock Companies, leaving the part ies • them liable only to the amount of their resPc,etl:i. shares. A measure, allowing any number al P - 00 sons to unite to carry on any trade or business „, such a principle, he was of opinion', struck (0/ reedy at the root of the trade and commer ce the country. - le• Mr. Alderman Woon denied that his Bill served the character which his Hon. Friena "if given to it. lie hoped the Bill would be 811° ", to be brought in and printed. If it sboulti be i r jected to, he did not wish to press it bri t c 'o-e asts id land, where the importance of snch " I , l e- „ r o. could trot be denied ; but When the intend eu C ro is•• visions. of it were known, he thought, At 8 " 0 4 When millions wanted employment, there e° be no hesitation in adopting it for this cooltil.. The !louse then went into the Committee. Mr. Alderman Wool') moved, that a 13il1 5 11° " 0 ,1 be brought in to repeal the Acts of the 26t5 t '27th of the• King, for the purpose of 'consoll'illie ing their provisions in one Act, and extendi n g same', to. promote the employment - cf the poorr manufactories, fisheries, and trade, byeneut irtiP' ing and regulating partnerships. Mr. GRENFELL said, the opinion he had Will. 66, tl of the Bill was founded on what had fallen 11.. the Hon. Member himself who wished to it in. lie had no objection to the weasni-e, it , Were to he confined in its operations to Ire laoa. Mr. Woon thought •his Honourable Fri°'`‘ would see the measure unite in a different lig" when the Bill was hiought in And printed , , ;rt The lteolotion was agreed to, and the te r of the Committee ordered to be received 0' Thursday --Adjourned. LONDON: Printed 1)373. B. CARSTAIRS, of No. 997 C,r r ,v Ormond-street, Queen-squnre; and published 1))" 1 ` . ,, I rl SCRIPPS, of No. 7, South. Molton-street, at TUE Office, No. 11.2, Stia ; where Advertisements, Order " Letters,. &c, (post-yid) must be a4dressed. 7 - / i 111)1 ttll tha P out "Lvt 34.1