The Sun. — London, England, 1838-03-31 00:00:00

T veer, increa sed three-fold w ithout any i nc rease having been made In the numbe r of the clergy, and what was the consequence? Why, that there was a general want of church accommodation. In both Edin burgh and Glasgow churches had been erected by public subscription, and others would be built by the same means, if there were any endow. ene nta for the ministers independently ofpeweates. The additional sup. port that the clergy required was very moderate, and as this was claimed for the benefit of the poor, he hoped it would be afforded by her Ma jesty's Government —(Hear, hear.) He would appeal to the good sense of the Noble Viscount at the head of the Government, whether his ar gument on this head was a tenable one? A complete case of destitution bad been made out , a nd if timel y assistance were given, and a proper geosedy applied it would be beneficial to a high degree to the spiritual i nter ests, the morals, and happ inessof the g reat mass of the populetion of the great towns, who were most liable to temptations, and out of The reach of those securities which the rural population had for keeping Cisme r i g ht. There was no check on th e behaviour of the pop of ulation : , iwns, because they were not under the inspection of the higher classes s-C society There was no check on their intemperance save want of m0.. 41 . aM teeing in extreme indigence ; the despair which "ea led to intempe rance and immorality of all kinds. necessity prodi., ' pastoral ie 'eaSuction, saerefore, it was i m p ossible that they Without could be brought back ." ttw right .nth. --(Cries of " Hear.") At " of Leith water, within the confir... .Earristerels, there was a popu lation sat W the teestahlished Church and of 1,400. Of these ninety belone - set to tbe feat , , a seppeared that seventy were Dissenters ; but, with rest., way plane eef-worship) a All• they had not been in the habit of attending a. a t there, Since, however, the report was made, a Church ha.. -• ea, woe giow and he was happy to be able to inform their Lordships the - sewn& frequented by those who had not been in the habit of previously ing any religious assembly. If fresh Churches were erected in oth, . places where they were wanted, he had no doubt that similar results would follow ; and, by making small endowments for the Ministers, the new Churches would, he was convinced, pave the way for removing al together the present faulty system, which pressed so hardly on the poor, more especially of great cities.—(Hear, hear.) In the cities and towns of Scotland a strong religious feeling existed. They contained numerous charities for the benefit of the people and the maintenance of schools for the education of the poor—charities which did honour to the populations where they existed, and such as were to be found in every part of this island. But the teachers in those institutions had not the same weight that regularly educated Min i s te rs wo and.uld have, but this wa s not the fault of the Clergy tl He was sorry to say that of late a strong feeling had grown tip in Scotland against the Established Church, and that per. sons in that country had avowed themselves desirous of subverting that Church from whom he at least never expected such hostility. It was contrary to their own former opinions, to the general understanding, and to the feelings 'hat ought to unite Christians one with another ; but still he regretted to sea , that influential persons were to be found who did not hesitate to declare the'r conviction that the only supplies which the Established Church ought to receive should depend w h oll y hy o re the volu he n tary benevolence of individuals. When he made t bsvations was merely citing the language of a distinguished theologician, one of those Dissenters who had given evidence before the Commission. The Established Church was cried down merely because it was an establish ment.—(Hear, hear.) Their Lordships should recollect that it was an establishment secured by the solemn Act of Union between the two countries. By that Act it was declared that the Church government and discipline should be established for ever, and that there should be no other Church government but this lu Scotland. The Sovereign, too, was required to take a peculiar oath to maintain the Protestant ehtsfeh of Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the engagement which the Sovereign entered into at her accession to the throne on this sub. Ject he thought it a matter well deserving the consideration of the Noble Viscount at the head of the Government. If the Established Church of Scotland were to exist at all—if it were not to be a b an d one d—ought it not to be enabled t o discharge the duties fo re were r which it was originally instituted ? —(Hear.) True it was that the some slight differences betwe en the doctrines of the Protesi.nnts and Dissenters of Scotland. As far as the doctrines of the Dissenters Went he was willing to admit that they were useful, but he would appeal without hesitation to their own experience, whether they were perfectly satisfied with the operation of the voluntary system in their own case ? There was a large proportion of the people of Scotland who never went to any place of public worship, and a more decisive argument he could not well conceive against the voluntary system than the state of religi ous destitution which prevailed in Ed inbur g h and Glasgow.—(Hear ) It might he knew be said, and such an argument had tie believed been used, that they ought not to show more partiality to the Established Church than to any other religious persuasion. Now he could not un derstand the meaning of an Established Church, except it was that Church which the nation preferred, and which they considered as the safest and best, as well as the purest vehicle for the conveyance ofspiritual instruction, the promulgation of religious ordinances among the people; and therefore it seemed to him a great inconsistency, to say the least of it, for the State to withhold from that Church support merely for the purpose of conciliating those who thought proper to dissedt from it. There was another point which he wished to put to the Dissenters, and that was whether it was consistent with a truly Christian spirit to sacrifice the interests of religion to what he must be allowed to call the interests of a sect.—;Hear, hear.) The Established Church was instituted solely for the good of the people, and it must always stand on the basis of sound religion. He was willing to give the Dissenters full credit for all that they had done, and desired that they should have the fullest possible toleration ; but while he said this he thought the Established Church was entitled to be supported by the country, and that its Ministers had in no way forfeited their claim to the confidence and favour of the State. —(Hear, hear.) Their conduct was in every point of view exemplary. Not only were they well versed in divinity, and men of good character, but they were attentive to their duties, regular in their ministrations, and of unwearied diligence in their teachings. Many of them were men who had earned high eminence for themselves, and had rendered the greatest benefit to the community at large, by promoting that religion and morality, without which no country could be either tranquil, happy, or prosperous.—(Hear, hear.) The only ground of objection urged by the Noble Viscount to the demand now made on the Government was the expense. The expense ought not to weigh in a matter of such vital importance; but, at all events, in large towns it would be extremely moderate, and as it would make so ample a return in protecting the happiness of the people, and surpressing vice, it ought not to be regarded for a single moment.—)Hear, hear.) It pogOt to be the object of every government to suppress, as far aspossible, intemperance and other misconduct, which led to misery and crime. These weresources of great expense to the country, and as they would be best prevented by increasing the moral and religious feelings of the people, he thought this was an additional reason why the grant now asked should not be withheld.—(Hear, hear.) Upon these coiialderations lie wished that the Noble Viscount would reconsider his resolutions, an d act on the principles which had determined the Government in is suing the commis:ion for inquiry into the state of religious destitution in Scotland.—Hear, hear.) The Earl of ROSEBERY rose chiefly to remove the misconception introduced into the debate, and to reduce the exaggeration of those who, in that and the other House of Parliament, had taken part in the discussions with respect to the propriety of granting additional en dowments to the Scottish Clergy. If he thought such a grant would pro. duce any greater moral and religious good he would have been as ready to support it as any Noble Lord in that House. The great majority of the people of Scotland, not merely Dissenters, but persona warmly at tached to the Established Church, were against the proposition of the Noble Earl (Aberdeen) opposite. Not long ago a large meeting was held in a borough in Scotland against the proposed grant, and when he steted to their Lordships that the chairman on that occasion was an elder untie Church he thought they ought to bee nvinced that the opposition to the grant was not confined to the seceders from the Established Church of Scotland. In several parishes the proprietors were bound to take care that in building churches accommodation was provided for 44 per cent. of the pop' lation ; and he asserted that in both Edinburgh and Glasgow the church accommodation would be found to exceed this amount. In Edinburgh there were 44,000 persons in connection with the Esta blished Church, and accommodation fur 39,000, while in Glasgow, out of a population of 95,000 there were sittings for 65,000. The de. ficieney, therefore, in Edinburgh was 5,000, and in Glasgow 10,000. Their Lordships had heard a good deal of the spoliation of Church pro perty ; but he begged to ask them what was the effect of the Act of 1707? That Act not only made provision for the division of parishes, but declared that some part of the unexhausted tithes should be applied fur the support of' the Clergy. This was a subject which could not be approached by party prejudice. Their object should be not to obtain a mere party triumph, but to uphold the Church intablisisment. — (Hear. The Earl of HADDINGTON was no partisan. The Noble Vis count at the head of the Government had mistaken what had fallen from his (Earl Fladdington's) Noble Friend. What his Noble Friend had said was, that the Church of Scotland had not taken the question up in the first instance as a party question. This was evident from the statements of Dr. Chalmers and others, all of whom declared that the state of reli gious destitution of Edinburgh and Glasgow loudly called for it. When the application on the subject was first made to the Government those who had the interview with the Ministers of the Crown returned per. fectly satisfied with what they promised. It was a little too much, how. ever, that the Clergy should be abused and browbeaten in every possible way. The Noble Viscount at the head of the Government had said some thing about a modification of the grant, but it was only calculated to throw more obscurity on the question. Did the Noble Viscount mean that her Majesty's Government would reconsider their opinion ? Viscount MELBOURNE—No, no. The Earl of HADDINGTON said the Noble Viscount said it was not the intention of the Government to reconsider their opinion, and he (the Earl of Haddington) wished that the Protestants and Clergy of Scotland would understand that this was the case.—(Hear, hear.) He was far from denying that there was a grant want of spiritual assistance in the rural parishes, but he at the same time thought that the destitu tion there was as nothing in importance when compared with the desti tign existing in the great towns. He denied that dissent was any aqui. volent for the want of sufficient means of religious instruction in the Established Church. They had guaranteed the permanency of the doc trines taught by that Church, and it was therefore imperative to give the Establishmrnt all the support which it required.—(Hear, hear.) There was no stability about dissent, and could it, he asked, be denied that the chapels of the old English Presbyterians were now occupied by Sociiiians ? This be thought would show the necessity which was im posed on the Government to secure to the Church a proper mainte nance.—(Hear, hear.) It was well known that if aid were granted to the Scotch Church they would provide a sufficient supply of religious instruction for the poor. Take the Synod, and the general body of the Scotch Church, and he would undertake to say there was no part of that Church that did not pray to the Government to give them the requisite aid. But the fact unfortunately was, that her Majesty's Ministers were supported in Scotland, as they were in England and in Ireland, by those who were not friendly to the Church—(Hear)—and these persons they dared not disoblige or oppose.—(Hear.) It was by means of the Dissenters of Scotland, that the boroughs of that country had at the last election declared in favour of her Majesty's Ministers, and this pressure from without was all-powerful upon them, and they Blared not resist or disoblige the party which caused it. The Feel of MI NTO referred to a series of figures, as given in the Report of the Scotch Church Commissioners, to show that in Edinburgh the a enount of church accommodation extended to 39i per cent. on the w h o l e of the population, and at Glasgow to nearly 40 per cent., being very little short of what was considered a fair legal supply of such ac commodation, vit., 444 per cent. This being compared with the want of church accommthiation which had been proved to exist in the metropolis of England end its suburbs, gave a very large snajo. rity in favour of Scotland. With respect to the Act of 1707, it was nothing more than a mere transfer of the jurisdiction, and its only object was to create a means to carry out the:principle that tiends should in all cases be maintained for the use of the Church ; and, when parishes were too extensive, that they should he broken up and divided. If, then, the machinery of that Act Wera found insuffieent to carry out this principle, Parliament ought not to Le hampered in its endeavours to amend that machinery. The Noble Lord concluded by saying that at that late hour he should not trouble their Lordship.) by entering snore fully into the subject. :Die Earl of II A DDINGTON said a few wards in explanation, and could assure the Noble Earl, that notwithstanding his calculation, there were in Glasgow alone 18,000 persons who had no Church accommoda. tion wbatever.—(He ar.) The Bishop of LONDON said that it was true that, compared with the want of Church accommodation in London and other parts of thi. country, destitution in that particular might not appear so very great in Scotland ; yet it was nevertheless far too great, and required an effi cient remedy.—(Hear.) The most important feature of the case, how. r el. . Wu , that the additional gran t re q uired for the Church of Scot and, was for the purpose of affording a aufficienreligious t instruc tion'nufor th e poor of t h at coun t r y.—(Hear, hear, heas9 The very mi. im Taa Church accommodation it was always consideo4 914 ht to be fifty per c.nt. upon the pop's ' lation ; and he did no t think else people of Scotla n d were at all exorbitant in asking sixty per cent. in the present case.—(Hear, , hear.) At all events, if sitting s to the amount of fifty per cent. w ere provid ed they would be wee of being occupie d to that extent, which would ba speak upon this question without irJa pot o great object gained. Ha zo cern with which he had heard t he expressing the great regret and CAA :. Majesty's Government, state that Noble Viscount at the head of her he protested against its being consi. dered the duty of the Government to provide additional accommodation for the Church of Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) Viscount MELBOURNE interrupted the Right Rev. Prelate, and said that what he had objected to was - the Church assuming the right to demand such addition from the Government —(Hean) The Bishop of LONDON replied that, in his opinion, the" duty topro. vide" arei the "right to demand" were co-ordinate terms.—(Cheers.) Now le: (the Bishop of London) protested against this doctrine of the Noble Viscount.—(Hear, hear.) It was the duty of the Government in any country where an Established Church existed to give it every pos sible assistance to enable it to answer its end and object. It was ene of the most important duties that any Administration could have to perform; , it was its duty to be beforehand with religious instruction, and that not only on religious, but even political grounds ; for it would be found in the end to be the readiest and the cheapest way of avoiding the ex. t e nsion of a preventiv e p olice.—(Hear, hear.) He entered h protest against the Noble Viscount questioning the propriety of what the Church called pastoral and parochial instruction and visitation. What other sett of instruction would the Noble Viscount have established? — (Hear, hear.) It was the very principle of their common Church ; and as to what had been said of the intrusion of Ministers of the Gospel i n to the privacy of do mestic life it was the great protection poor—the only check that could be placed upon the vices of the rich, and one of the surest foundations of sound morals and religion.—(Loud cheers.) He was sure that the Noble Viscount had too much good sense—toe much sagacity—not to see that if the Clergy were useful at all they were so more especially with reference to the manner in which they discharged their domestic duties.—(Hear, hear.) N.ot pply the Church of Scotland, but the Church of England as well, ,o.wed deep debt of gratitude to the two Noble Lords oppo site tiabettlieco ,atad Had4inc,ton) for their sentiments that night, for they " ^4 laid down peincipses ahast Rises equally applicable to both those • —(Hear, bstaa.) Theaeava4 atißorse tether point to which he countrie.. ' a with regard to 'bat bad fallen frprat the q'oble Vise wished to rele. The Noble visgount ap,cl tilt 1:501.0 Pai peaf count (Melbourne). .. -wt their apposition to remedy thii ip. him (Minto) appeared to . " - .ion on the fstiAr; they seem to en. creased want of church accommodaa urecedent—(ii4ef i tertain of the danger of esta blishin g that, if the Legasta . but he (the Bishop of London) was convinca- ;tell of liberal it y ture of this country were e v e r to arrive at such a need as would induce them to grant the assistance now required, not fear that any danger wou ld ever arise out of it.—(Hcar, hear.) There was no other way of applying a remedy to the state of spiritual destitution prevailing in Scotland, except by a Government grant, and that grant, under such circumstances, the Government was bound to make. The grant of 130,0001. a year, would do much towards supplying what was requisite in point of accommodation and in struction by the encouragement it would hold out to others to contribute lib er ally towards such objects out of t heir own resources.—(Hear, hear.) Was Parliament to do nothing to promote these objects, merely because it was afraid that at the end of half a century a demand might be made upon it which it might chance to be unable to meet ?—(Hear, hear.) This was, indeed, a most important and engrossing subject, and he • hoped and scarcely doubted that the generous feelings of the Noble Via. count would yet get the better of him, and induce him to listen to a call by responding to which he would not only promote the moral and r eli. glens welfare of the country, but rally more of its affections round her Majesty's Government.—(Hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate concluded by expressing his hearty concurrence in all the observations which had fallen from his Most Rev. Friend with reference to the feelings of the Church of this country towards that of Scotland. The Earl of MINTO explained. The Duke of WELLINGTON said that it Ares impossible he could suffer this subject to pass without offering a few observations upon it. It appeared to him clear, after the discussion that had taken place on this subject, with respect to Canada and Malta, that it was not the policy of her Majesty's Government to encourage Established Churches in those Parts of the country. He was afraid too, from what had passed in that Howse a.nil in another place, that the Church was not encouraged as it should be is this Country, and when he recollected what had passed with. in the last few years, he might truly say that the Church of Ireland was not encouraged. So far flfsleotald say, that it appeared to him that it was n ot the policy of her Majestre QPYPIMMent to encourage the Estab lished Chu: ch. This he looked upon as e. Serious alteration in the fun. damental princtpLe of the Government of this cooetr f, which was much to be lamented for the ,sake of religion and good older. The Church of Scotland was one abort ail others the least calculated to elteite any jealousy with the Government, for it was the hardest working Church, and the one which produced what Lord Liverpool had called the best condition of any country in Europe, Cr any part other Ma. jesty's dominions. According to the reports that had Peen made, it was evident there was a great want of religious instruction ie evond. But the Noble Viscount opposite said that if the demands of the aural, of Scotland were conceded, similar &mantle would be made from other parts. But if the Government gave way upon this, It would not be doing more than had been done before. Had not grants been frequently made to the Church of England in this country ? There cert4nle lug) not been any to the Church of Ireland because there a surplus was aliegej to exist. The Government ought to listen to the appeal which bad been made to them by the Assembly of the Church of Scotland, who engaged to establish for the Queen's subj ects in teethe country religious instil* tiers, good order, and morality. Threle wr rewards prom ised frau* the small grants that had been asked tor. Apinst this grant the ile!' Noble Viscount had given no reason exce p t the expense, g i ed that sim appli cations would be made from ot her p laces. But the hap) , ted f nd Of o which the Noble Viscount spoke might be sufficient; and why, ahem (ore, deny the principle ? Nothing could give him greater satisfaCtiOrt than to see the Government encourage the Established Church, and he believed the first and best step towards doing so would he the adoption of the course he suggested . The Earl of ABERDERtI, in reply, said that the Noble Vise.ount at the head of the Government had keen guilty of a direct breach of faith with the people of Scotland upor# this gobject by now refus. ing to them what the Government had on a folTsief OGelsiOn distinctly promised. Viscount MELBOURNE denied in the strongest terms that one gentle, man could deny to another that he had been guilty of any breach of faith, or that he had made or entered into any promise or en gagement on the subject, and he denied that any one had a right to deduce such an in ference from any thing he had ever said. The Earl of ABERDEEN repeated that, looking at the matter in an equitable point of view, the appointment of the Commission, and the declarations of members of the Government, of which the Noble Viscount was the head, elsewhere, there was a decided breach of faith ; un. less, perhaps, the whole proceeding of the Government was meant to be a deception on Scotland. The existence of the evil complained of was not denied by the• Noble Viscount, and without such denial, he repeated, that a breach of faith must have been committed by the Government. After a few words in explanation from t he earl of MINTO, the re turns were agreed to. On the motion of the Bishop of LONDON a Bill to prevent parish vestries being held in churches was read a first time. NEW ZEALAND. The Eari of DEVON moved for a Committee to inquire into the present state cf New Zealand and its population. The Duke of RICHMOND hoped the appointment of this Committee was not intended to forward the views of private speculation, as he understood there was a Joint-Stock Company relating to New Zealand. The Earl of DEVON knew of no Joint-Stock Company respecting New Zealand, and he thought his Noble Friend might have given skeins credit for moving the Committee on public rattier than on private grounds. He intended to bring in a Bill on the subject, when he would explain his views more fully. It was chiefly the benefit of the British population in New Zealand whose interests he looked to. Lord GLENELO said that he would look at any Bill brought in on this subject without prejudice, and give it his best consideration. He thought the time was come when the interests of the British population in New Zealand ought to be seriously looked at by the Government. The motion for the Committee was then agreed to. The Marine Mutiny Bill went through a Committee, and was ordered to be read a third time on Monday. The First Feuits Bill was reads second time.—Adjourned. THE SXI.4, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 31, 1.838. Mr. WAL KE R presented a petition from Sussex in favour of the Poor Laws. NEGRO SLAVERY. Mr. PEASE presented petitions from Stourbridge, King's Norton, and a great many other places against slavery. Mr. BROT HE RTON presented similar petitions from Salford and other parts of Lancashire. Mr. BAINES presented similar petitions from Slaney Bridge, and sever al other places. Mr. L. WHITE presented similar petitions from Bic ming. ham. Similar petitions were also presented from Warwick, Winchester, and Sligo. Sir CHARLES STYLE presented a petition from 145 shipowners cf Scarborough, against the duty on Marine In surance. Mr. GILLON presented a petition, agreed to at a public meeting of the citizens of Edinburgh, where the reso lutions were passed unanimously, against all further grants or endowments to the Chureh Of Scotland ; also petitions to the gime effect from Airdrie, Linlithgow, the Reform Society of Paisley, the inhabitalits of Hamilton, Kilwiening, Lanark, zed Glasgow, to the number of 45, with signatures to the amount of 26,000. The Hon, Member concluded by stating that he cordially concurred in the prayer of the petitions. Sir G. STRICKLAND denied the allegations in the pe tition made against the Church of Scotland. Mr. 0. GORE gave notice that after the holidays he should move for a return of the expenses incurred by altering Turnpike Acts for England and Wales, for 1820 to the present time. CHURCH OF SCOTLAND. Mr. W Lit C E presented several petitions against farther endowment of the gstaWislied Church of Scotland. Mr. GROTE presented similar petitions from Camden Tewo, end, (as we understood), from Mr.,Benjamin Well*, of Camberwell. NEGRO APPRENTICESHIP , Mr. HARVEY presented petitions from Colchester, aid rer the abolition of negro apprenticeship. other place). Colonel CONOLLY presentel a petithen Aron paTO NATIONAL ED-u-C.^.T.i9N-(,1 , in the county of Westmeath, against the present system a National Education in Ireland. CHURCH PROPERTY. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition complaining of the alienation of Church property, and in favour of the re-appointment of the Church LeaseßY.s Committee. Mr. P END ARVE S presented several petitions from Corn wall, for the abolition of Negro Apprenticeship. Dr. LUSH INGTON presented 43 petitions to the same effect. Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND presented twenty-five petitions to the same effect. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. Sir A. CLIFFORD, the Usher of the Black Rod, appeared at the table and summoned the House to the House of Peers, to hear the Royal assent given by Commission to several Bills. The Speaker, attended by , several Hon. Members, accord ingly went to the House of Lords. On his return to the House, the SPEAKER acquainted the House that he had been to the House of Lords, and had heard the Royal Assent given to several Bills.—(For which see Lords' report.) Mr. SANFORD brought up the Report of the Select Committee on Pensions. Petitions in favour of the abolition of negro apprenticeship, were presented by Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Pusey, and several other Hon. Members. LORD GOSFORD'S MISSION. Mr. CHALMERS, seeing the Hon. Member the Under- Secretary for the Colonies in his place, wished to know from him whether he bad any objection to furnish a return of the whole expenses of Lord Gosford's mission to Canada. Sir G. GREY was understood to say that he had no ob je_etion to furnish the returns asked for by the Hon. Member. NEGRO APPRENTICESHIP—ADJOURNED DE BATE. The Order of the Day having been read, Mr. W. JAMES congratulated her Majesty's Government upon haying so able a coadjutor as the Secretary for the Colonies, tSlip eoecluded the debate last night on this most important and interesting subject, In the course of that able, eloquent, and forcible address, the Honourable Mem ber alluded to the pressure from without—the pressure from constituencies on their representatives ; and he ( Mr. .J.) Agreed with him that it had been unfairly exercised in many iestences but that did not apply as regards himself, for he had only had one letter from his constituents on the subject, and he believed the people of Cumberland took less interest in the question than any other part of the kingdom, for only four or five petitions bad been presented on the subject. As he ( Mr, J.) happened to possess an interest in the question, being the proprietor of an extensive estate in Jamaica, he trusted the House would extend its courtesy to him for a few minutes, as he was not in the habit o mating .ong speeches and troubling them very often. He begged to tender his acknowledgments to the country for the donation of 4,0001. or 5,0001., which he had received as compensation money for the loss of pro perty, or perhaps he should say the anticipated injury to the property, which had cost his family somewhere about ten times that amount. Much had been said about the 20,000,0001., which it. was alleged the people of England had been swindled out of—the people of England had given that of their own free will to establish a great principle ; but it was a great mistake to suppose that it would afford anything like an adequate compensation to the owners of slaves, if the Negroes should refuse to cultivate the soil under the free system, as was supposed by many persons would be the case in the island of Jamaica. When that money was granted, it certainly was a part of the bargain that the compulsory service); of the negroes should cease at the expiration of seven years. The object of his Honourable Friend the Member for Yorkshire was to shorten that period by two years. a He (Mr. J.) had g iven the sub j ect his most earnest and anxious and dispassionate consideration, and he bad no hesi tation now in declaring that, under all the circumstances, he thought it would be hest at once to emancipate the slaves and g ive them unqualified freedom.—( Loud cheers.) That would be better than keeping them in a continued state of ex citement; and upon that point he differed from H, Bart. (the Under-Secretary for t he Colonies), for a space of two years to come. He therefore shoul d support the original motion—( Hear, hear, bear)...-but in doing so wished to guard himself against be in g considered as pursuing that course from any desire to cour t popularity, or with the view of being thought to possess fi ner feelings of humanity than his neighbours. He thought that the immediate emanci pation of the negroes, besides being, as it was contended, their r ight, would be advantageous also to t he planters.—( Hear, hear.) He believed it would enable themto discharge from their properties all the idle, disorderly, and ill conditioned persons, and relieve hem from the main. Where the tenan ce of weakly and impotent hands. the Planter was a kind and indulgent master, he would find no difficulty in cultivating his estates, because many persons would .be glad to serve him instead of an oppressive task-master. The chief fear he had for the success of the scheme for the immediate emancipation, arose from reflecting upon the wretched condition in which many of those persons would find themselves placed. He supposed it was the intention of the Honourable Baronet, the Member for Yorkshire, if this resolution were carried, to bring in a Bill similar to that alluded to by Lord Brougham in a nother place. He thought that measure would not answer its purpose, unless there was some vagrant clause, or something of the nature of a Poor-law introduced. There was undoubtedly a most easy mode of getting rid of the complaints oft be negroes by the enforcing upon those individuals who had pressed their claims so strongly upon the Legislature. A small mite from each of the British Ladies who had so meritoriously taken up the cause of the negroes, to their honour be said it, would go far to do all that was required to get rid of the difficulties under which the negroes laboured, and would add greatly to their beneficent design.—( Cheers.) As a West India planter, he had exerted his interest on behalf of the slaves in the Colonies, but he had always thought, and did so still, that there was, and had been in England, labourers in a far more miserable condition than the negroes. ( Loud cheers.) Look to the Irish labourers, and to the hand-loom weavers. —(Great cheering.) Talk about the negroes being chained to their work—why the hand-loom weavers of this country were chained to their looms, no., for 46 hours in a week, but for 90.—( Cheers.) They had far worse food than the negro i his friend the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had adverted last night to the food of the negro; why the hand-loom weavers would get fat upon such food.—( Cheers.) So likewise with respect to the places in which they lived—the place appropriated to the negro was a palace compared with that devoted t 6 the hand-loom weaver. He was satisfied that immediate emancipation would do no in jury to the planter who had behaved with humanity and kind ness. Neither did he think it would cause any injury to the negro ; it would, on the contrary, in his opinion, prove beneficial to all those who were orderly, and had be haved themselves. Anxious as he had always been that the great measure of the abolition of slavery should be carried out fully, he would give his cordial support to the or iginal motion, which had been introduced by his Hon. Friend the Member for Yorkshire—(Cheers)—because he entertained none of those fc;ira which had been expressed by the Hon. Under Secretary for the Colonies, He thought the measure could be carried out with perfect safety, and that the Negro was now as fi to receive his liberty as he would be in two years hence. Sir E. SUGD EN ruse so early because he was anxious to state the reasons which influenced his vote upon the question, before any heat had arisen in the debate. Still, early as it was, considering the vast importance of the subject, he was surprised that the re were none of her Ma j est y' s Ministers in places,,ti—at(t—ilhee;r: hear.) He had a right to expect, at all s hould have been in some measure repre sented.-- Hear, hear.) was anxious to st a t e hi s reasons, their events er because he had the m isfortune to differ from his constituents on the question. They had requested him to support the petition they Lad sent up, praying for the immediate emancipation of the apprentice, which he did not feel that lie could do. The enieatione were very simple ones, though much difficulty might be eaperienced in the consi deration of them. The first question was whether there was any thing in the Act of 1833 which prevented that House from interfering either in favour of the Bill, or the more extended proposition of the lien. Dart!, the Member fo r Yorkshire. The n, if t he H ouse were no t so pretested, the next question which arose was, had the case now, arisen whictt rendered that interference proper on the part of the House? Then, again, if these questions were to be answered the affirmative, what was the remedy to be applied to the abuse? it was true ihat in the Act there was not one word e s n e4rr: to be found Whi s ciL set ot4 tae exisi.eticq - - • He undersaod the s t a t Hop. fiaronet tne . pnuer ecraary to stated that when this moasige wgs mireticed the Noble eve Lord in 1833, it was expressly stated to the HOuse wad the country, that this was a contract between the nation on the one hand, and the owners of West India slaves on the other ; ROUSE OF COMMON'S, MA BC II 30. - - - - The SPEAItEk took the Chair at the usual hour. A New Writ was moved for East Lothian, in the room of Lord Ramsay, now Earl of Dalhousie. On the motion of Mr. WALKER, the Bury Waterworks Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. CH A LMERS moved that the evidence taken before the Committee on the Cranston Hill Waterworks Bill in 1834, and before the Committee on the Glasgow Waterworks Bill in 1835, be referred to the Committee on the present Bill. —Agreed to. The Hos. GENTLEMAN then moved, " That the Committee do ascertain whether the Directors or a majo. rity of the partners of the Cranston Hill Waterworks Company have power, tinder the several Acts for the incorporation and revile. tion of said Company, to sell the land and works belonging to the said Company; and, if they have not such power, whether the promoters of the Glasgow Waterworks Bill ought to have given notice to each vidual partner of the Cranston Will Waterworks Company of their in tention to take the land of said Company ; and, if so, whether such no. Vice was given. "That the Committee do also ascertain, whether the said Directors or the said majority of partners have power, under the said Acts of incorpo ration and regulation, to make the partners in the said Company pathless in another Company; and if not, whether the partners in the said Cran ston Hill Waterworks Company have each individually given their con: sent to be made partners in the Glasgow Waterworks Company, and in what manner the consent of minors and other persons legally ittcapaci tated his been obtained. " That the Committee do also ascertain, whether the Directors or a majority of the partners of the Glasgow Waterworks Company have power, under the severs/ Acts for the incorporation anti regulation of the said Company, to make the partners of the said Company liable to the engagements of the Cranston Hill Waterwork s Company ; and, if gaid Directors or said majority of partners have no t such power, whether, and in what manner, the consent of the individual partners in said Company has been obtained. " And that the Committee do report to the House thereon." The sole object of the Bill was to make those who were part ners in the new Company partners in the Glasgow Water Works. Mr. GREEN opposed the motion. He would put it to the Hon. Member whether his motion was not a direct contraven tion of one of the Standing Orders of the House. It appeared to him that it was quite irregular to move an instruction to a Committee with inspect to parties who were not before it. He hoped the Hou. Member would withdraw his motion, and if not, that the House would negative it. Mr. CHAUM E R S had no objection to withdraw the first part of the instructions, but with respect to the remaining portion of them, he thought them a fit subject of inquiry before the Committee, and he should therefore press them on the at tention of the House. Mr. WALTER CAMPBELL hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw his instructions.—( Hear. ) Mr. CHALMERS then withdrew his instructions, as it seemed to be the general wish of the House. Mr, INGHAM brought up the Report of the Committee on the Bundling Junction Railway Bill On the motion of Sir G. STRICKLAND, the Kirkstall. Ilkley, and Shipley Road Bill was read a second time. On the motion of Sir 0. STRICKLAND, the Dudley hill and Killinghall Road Bill was read a second time. On the motion of Sir G. STRICKLAND, the Wibsey and Huddersfield Road Bill was read a third time and passed, Mr. TOWNLEY brought up the Report on the Sutton (Cambridge) Inclosure Bilf. On the motion of Lord ELIOT, the Haleworthy Road Bill was read a third time and passed. On the motion of Mr. WILSON PATTEN, the St. Helen's and Runcorn-Gap Railway Bill was read a accond time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. FAZAIERLEY brought up the report of the Cont. mittee on the Poor-law Amendment Bill. On the motion of Mr. BiZli.li.l:Ef the Dean Forest Road Bill was read a second time. Sir JANIEg GRAHAM brought up the report of the Committee on the Tenhy Imi,rovement and Harbour M t . WARBURTON presented a petition from Edinburgh relative tc the Irish Medical Charities Bill, and praying that the graduates of 7,ity should be admitted to practice in the Irish infirmaries ; also a petition from the Surgeons of Publin praying for an alteration in the iaw with respect to the. avethecaripi pf Ireland; also a petition from Rye in favour of the Baliot, and the three-fourths of the time was a portion of the consi deration. If that Act were looked at, what was the intention of the Legislature admitted of no doubt. Whether it was wise or unwise that this contract should have been entered into, he believed the slaves to be precisely in the same situation as they were before the Act passed. He was not then speaking of the propriety of treating their fellow-creatures as property, but he was speaking of that which was treated as property, which was assignable as such, disposable as such, by will or by any other testamentary disposition. As the property was un der certain clauses of the Act saleable, the property had been sold, and whole gangs of their fellow subjects who were not affixed to the soil, had been bought, and sold, and also were mortgaged—and now belonged, or were supposed to belong, to the persons who had advanced their money on the slaves.—( Hear, hear.) Some of the highest persons in the State had given it, as their opinion, that there was no contract, but that the apprenticeship Lad been agreed upon for the benefit of the slave himself, and in order to teach him the habits of civilized society. A Itight Rev, Prelate had stated that there was no contract, lecause without the negroes there could he no contract—and the negroes were not a party to this agreement. The answer to that was, that the argument was an utter fallacy, for the law must be taken as it was ; ail law could not be east aside ; and the subject could not be viewed as under a totally new light. The negro was not a party to, but subject to the contract.—( Hear, hear.) A Noble and Learned Friend of his (Sir Edward Sugden's) had contended not that the negro should have been a party to the contract, but that there was in fact t.o contract at all. He ( Sir E. Sugden) was not in different to the slavery of the negroes, for he held that the condition of the negroes now, though under the name of ap prenticeship, was virtually slavery still.—( Hear, hear.) He was sincerely desire us to do justice to all parties,—to the negros as well as the planters.—(Hear, bear.) And if he could safely and justly do so, he would gladly strike off the negTeeis fetters.--( Hear.) He thought a case 'steer' fnII.Y ril9td° out of violations of the Ts.,- T ia . tems of the Legislature by the a i lasitera, which jus4i4e . ii tl4 interference of the Parliament, Thgn game the last question—Whether it would be ilor the benefit of the Negroes thgmeebsea, that they should go to the cateet of the reef on ef 'the Hon. Baronet; and whether .ire case celled for it ? That there had been such a ~reach of the lengagement on the part of the . • • • ;:ianters, but more particularly in Jamaica, as to authorise the House to interfere, he, for his own part, did not dolibt.--( Hear.) Whether it would be wise or prudent, however, for them to do so, was another conside ration. The case against the planters was certainly a very powerful one. He could not agree with the Hon. Baronet (the Secretary for the Colonies), that it was not fair for the Honourable Baronet who brought forward the motion, or the Ilonourable Member who had seconded it, to cite particu lar instances of ill-treatment and cruelty on the part of the planters ; for how was the case to be made out except by particular instances ? Did they expect the whole negro popu lation to rise up in insurrection, or to be tied up altogether by the planters, before they could prove a breach of the en gagement? The case could only be made out by particular instances, and the only question was, whether they were suffi ciently numerous, or strong, to establish the general charge ; and with respect to Jamaica, as he had before stated, he had made up his mind in the affirmative. That they were confined to a particular district he did not deny ; but that a general dis position and tendency towards cruelty on the part of the plan ters, was sufficiently evident, even from the carefully worded provisions of the Act of Parliament, by which slavery was abolished, and the apprenticeship system substituted in its place. There was not a provision of that Act, that was not framed with a view to correct some vicious propensity or habit on the part of the planters. The first section regulated the hours of labour. Why was that necessary ? Because the planters were in the habit of depriving their slaves of the leisure time which it was intended they should have, and mak log them work nine hours, intead of eight. The next provi sion was to correct certain irregularities as to food. In all these cases, it was clear that the planters acted contrary to the intention of the Legislature. It was intended that the apprentice labourer should have the sane allowance as before. The first act of the planters was to strike off the allowances, but now It was proposed to restore them. The hospital abuses were very bare. This Bill compelled the masters to provide them with food in hospitals and prisons, during the time they m ight remain there, There was another measure which seemed to have escaped the attention of the House, on which no man could entertain the slightest doubt as to the intention o f the Legislature, and that was the privileges allowed to women, It must have been a matter of surprise to the slave population to find themselves in a worse condition. That was intended, and properly, to be restored by this Bill. The next provision was for the appraisement and valuation of the negro a pprentices, That was evaded by the Local Legislature, and thin Bill proposed that Special Justices alone khould act, which was another instance of abuse, The most crying abuse he had ever witnessed in his life, as regarded the violation of this Act, was that of the whipping of females.—( Hear, hear.) He had read the clause over and over again to satisfy himself if there was a shadow of doubt—(Hear)—and he must say that a grosser and more wanton outrage never existed than had taken place in these colonies in the flogging of females.—( Hear. ) The 17th clause of the Act admitted of no doubt whatever. The 17th clause provided that no Court Judge or Justice of the Peace should punish any apprenticed labourer being a female for any offence by whipping or beating her person. In viola tion of that clause thousands of females bad been flogged.— ( Hear, hear.) Taking a period of 22 months for the five largest colonies, and a period of from nine to twenty-two months for the smaller ones, it appeared that 29,000 persons had been flogged.—( Hear.) He had never in his life witnessed a greater violation of any Act than had taken place in these colonies. It would be excedinglv wholesome in discussing the case that the matter should be probed to the bottom. Without that they could not come to any safe conclusion upon the subject. Instead of throwing a veil over the evils that had taken place, it was their duty to ascertain where the mis chief had occurred,—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the local Legislature, it appeared to have taken its power from some words in a proviso at the end of the Act, which authorized them not to inflict any punishment on the appren ticed labourers which would not be inflicted upon the free coloured population. The result was, that these persons were sent into the workhouses under the authority of a local magis trate, where they were made to " dance the mill," and subjected to the lash on every occasion. —(Dear.) It was true that the punishment of the females in many in stances arose from obstinacy, but then they were punished with a severity which their taskmasters had no right whatever to resort to. The question now was, what should the House do There were two propositions. One was total emancipation, and a Bill to Carry out the intentions of the Act of 1833..—(hear, hear.) In adopting either there must be a breach of contract.—(Hear, hear) To give one issuance of this in the new Bill, in the case of any abuse of the apprentice, it was provided that all controul should be taken from the planter. What was infraction if that was not ?—(Hear.) In either ease the principle was lost. What, then, was the proper remedy for the evil ? He found a great difficulty its forming an opinion on this sub ject. First he had to make up his mind as to whether we should inter. fere at all ; and, secondly, whether the present was a case that jus tified interference, The Flight Hon. Baronet opposite had triumphed in the amelioration of the slaves under the apprenticeship system, but he (Sir E. Sugden) could not compliment the Government much 0 0 that result. Who had first discovered the bad treatment of the slaves ? Was it the Government.—(Hear, hear.) He very much disapproved of the conduct of those who did discover it, but Government were asked for a remedy, and they ought to have provided an effectual one. But this was not Isis charge against them. Its charge was that after the Bill was passed, they did not pay that attention to its working that the necessities of the ease required.—(Hear, hear.) Now, there was a remark he wished to snake—one that had struck everybody —and that was on the niggardly provision made by the Government for the support of the special justices ; and, in fact, they could not maintain themselves. The income of the special justice was so small, and his expenses so great, and he was so pressed upon by the planters, that although intended by the Bill to be provided against inconvenience, the income was so small that he could not maintain himself.—(Hear, hear.) The consequence was that he was obliged to become the guest of the planter on whom he was sent to execute justice.—(llcar, hear.) That was not the way that the ends of justice should be pursued. There ought to be no familiarity between the prosecutor and the criminal. Ile now cameo the important question of what that House should do. Ile was prepared to visit the whole island of Jamaica with the sins of individuals of that island ; but he could not visit those sins upon other colonies. (Cheers, hear, hear.) He was the less disposed to this because Monserrat had already liberated her slaves, and Barhadoes was about to do so ; and he would rather, if possible, have a voluntary than a forced emancipation from all.—(Hear, hear.) For immediate abolition it was said the negroes were already prepared. He was not prepared to think so, nor did he think they would be so in 1840, because no official steps had been taken to make them so. — (Hear, hear.) He was not one of those who thought that the steps necessary to precede total emancipation should be left to the last rms. ment. —He thought those things that were left to the last were always the worst done.—(lfear, hear.) He did nut think there were sufficient grounds for the punishment of all the colonies, but quite sufficient for t he Bill of the Noble Lord. He should not vote for the resolutions of the Hon. Baronet, not to screen the planters, but because he thought they would not benefit the apprentices themselves. But he must say that his vote that evening would depend on the answer he should receive from the Right Hon. Baronet to some questions he intended to put. If he did not find sufficient provisions in the Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet for the correction of local abuses in the administration of justice, and a clear recital of the preamble of the Bill of 1833, in which it was stated that t h e apprentices were to be put on the footing of workmen, he would not vote for his Bill. There was another important consideration on which. he wished to be satisfied. In the Bill of 1833 it was enacted that the apprentice who should happen to be imprisoned during the intervening time between that and 1840 was to be kept the amount of his impri. sonment after the expiration of his apprenticeship, with the proviso that it was hot to extend beyond seven years. This was actually affording his master an inducement for putting him in prlson.—(Hear, hear.) Now, this clause required a remedy, anal if he was to support the Bill he must be assured that ono would be provided. If he was not assured that all slavery would cease in 1840 he must Vote for the resolutions. B..fore he sat down he must allude to a remarkable letter from the Chief Justice of England, He understood that that letter stated that e mancipation ought to be granted on the grounds that Parliament had no right to legislate at all on the subject; that their legislation WO power without right, acting rot caps.iersey, arid that 011PeilienoY now demanded immediate abolition. tie (Sir E. Sugden) did not defend the I , tw which allowed of slavery —n o mats detested slavery more than he aid—but, in considering whether the proposition of the Chief Justice was a sound one, he must say that it was utterly unfounded in point of l a w. He had now stated his opinions to the House--he hoped, calmly and without excitement ; and he could assure the House that his vote would Ise influenced by no motive but anxiety for justice.—(Hear.) Mr. ITC° NNgI,I 4 said tie thooaht it was perfectly plain that the Queen's Government could nqt resist the demand for negro emancipa tion. The public sentiment had lwri pronounced so distinctly, the public feeling had been excited so strongly, that he did not think he was fi eing too far when he said that the question must be conceded. — (Cileerio The RIO Ilefiatifebie fitingall It 4 0 hail itlAt ktict4c 4 i would find th 9 utter imposibility of carrying out his own princ i p le in an y other way than by supportin g t h e reso l ut i on , a ddi ng , if he pleased, another by way of qualification, but not standing upon the Bill pro posed by the Government, in which case it would be utterly ir , V9l 7 t;' hie for him to realise the principle ; 04 4 i 4 iinselflaid down', or t,C), ta tisfy hid "own same last of h sf tai' reettiodi' tali& fO italaifie the paiie . mind op tai I stiWl4; 4 . S!iTile:Pe.rsaas t d treWitti d . isrw . asix thg virtues and services of men in the cause of liberty which they did not deserve. The matter was distinctly understood by the people of England. They understood that they had paid 20,000,000/. they knew that they had paid it upon terms. They agreed t o pay 20,000,0001. upon having I last meeting.—(Cheers:) - And upon What pretence was it introduced ? an adequate and satisfactory arrangement made in the colonies to work out the Emancipation Bill. That Bill was perfectly in telligible to every body. Could there be any ditlicuay or doubt about the 20,000,000/. not being paid until an adequate and satisfac tory arrangement was made for giving to the negroes the advantages of the British Act of Parlia:nent ? The money was paid—that was the first fact. Had there been an adequate arrangement made to give the negroes the benefit of emancipation ? Had there been a satisfactory ar. rangement ? There was neither the one nor the other.—(Hear, hear.) A satisfactory meant something more than an adequate arrangement, and everybody knew that neither an adequate nor a satisfactory arrange. ment had been made.—(Hear, hear.) The money was paid, and why ? He had heard it stated that this was attributed to the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire (Lord Stanley) ; but any one would easily imagine that it was to be shared between him and the Cabinet ; and he had beets told that the proposal of the payment of the 20,000,000/. was to be attributed to a Noble and Learned Lord who had taken so ac tive a part latterly on the subject. Certainly if the Cabinet acted on that Noble and Learned Lord's advice, he had placed himself in a position not the most enviable when he accused others of doing that in which he was himself a principal actor.—(Hear, hear) The people, therefore, stood in this predicament—they gave 20,000,0001. for having the Act carried out. The money ought not to have beets paid until the carry ing out of the Act was secured. The money was paid ; and now, for the first time, a Bill is brought its to carry out the conditions and particulars of the Act of Emancipation.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It can not be denied that those conditions had not been carried out. If they had, there would have been no necessity for this Bill at all, and the very bringing in of the Bill was a demonstration that they had not worked out the Act of 1833, that the arrangements under that Act had not been completed, and that the value of the 20,000,000/. had not been go/en to the people. He thought that this was perfectly clear from the speech of Sir Lionel Smith to the Legislative Assembly of Jamaica, in which hedistinctiy stated that in some instances the situation of the ne gro was worse under the present system than before the ;,saatacipation, Act. They bad it, therefore, perfectly plain that kiss e s. people, had been defrauded of twenty millions, and the only thtni proposed was Ily h WOW Act of Parliament to endeavoste to. gad fei thg PC O PIP the value 1 their money. Bet enuld they ree..over. the four years that h" Whftt OCP,P , 9 3 4ati9n geanti %hey give to the tessoPle dgone by ? ClVkeo. tonne %he paYllaen% I the twenty re . " - •ur theperiod that had ittge of the woe% dovitsg that tes-' _ sod, aga .... ss , i i g o t ns, and what for the stiffer_ a s :11:, feet. 'illt,resd come out the provisions of the Act ? -, and had been admitted on all sides, which were et considerable tss:, orta P nee to enable them to arrive at a proper conclu fac'ts, were eosseoletory enough, as related to the planters ; for in • every discussion before the present they had heard repeated Complaints of the poverty and the distress of the planters, of their failing fortunes, of their increasing incumbrances, and their diminished profits. They had always come before the House in the situation of persons complaining that their property had been di mlnished in value, and they implored the House not to take steps towards the emancipation of the negroes, as the effect would be to accumulate misfortunes upon them, Rut now the scene was altered, and concomi tant with tho progress of the emancipation of the negroes was the pros perity of the planters themselves.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet (Sir George Grey) read triumphantly a return of the imports and exports of the colonies, which showed that the imports had greatly increased, and consequently showing an increased consumption of all articles in the colonies. This fact, therefore, proved the increased internal pros. perity of the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) They had, then, in the first place, this fact, that the planters themselves had benefited by the emancipation, They had also another fact, borne out by entire evidence in all the discussions in which the negroes had been involved; that there was not the least well-grounded cause for saying that the negroes had not conducted themselves in the manner in which their warmest advocates prophesied they would do, and shown themselves perfectly fitted fel entire liberty.--.(dear, hear.) Those facts were of the greatest ilnpurt. arm°, The planter was benefited. The experiment had Meer made, and the liege bad most satisfactorily responded to the experiment, Could there be any doubt, after the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Sugden), that the regulations of the Ail, and the conditions on which the money was paid, and %h 0 apprenticeship created, had been violated by the planters g---(Cheers) No man could doubt it, They had, then, a violation of the engagements under which the planters had received the public money. It had been said that there was in this case a contract, and he was sorry to find the Right Hon. Gentleman gave countenance to it, although he most admit that the Right Hon. Gotitle man did not argue on the terms of a contract, but referred to a quasi contract rather than a real one. If there was any weak part in the Right Hon, Gentleman's able speech, this was the weakest, in which he endeavoured to describe what he supposed to be a contract between this country and the planters, The onty objection started to entire ernaoisis pation was, that it would he a violation of a contract. But there must be a contract hofare it could be violated, and he asked, was there any contract on this subject ? The first person who, appeared to suggest the idea of a contract was Lord Gleneig, but when he did so, he apologised fur calling it a contreet., as WOulti be seen in his despatch of the lath June, 1835. In edeleesaing the Legislative Assembly of Jamaica, wish. ing to lindtlee theta to give to the apprentices the benefit of the law, he stated " that there might be said to exist a solemn contract." It must beremarked that Lord Glenelg did not call it a contract, he apologised for using the word. The Right lion. Gent. (Sir E. Sugden) did not define what he called a contract, There was an Act of the Supreme Legislature legis lating of its own authority, and regulating the condition slits owm sub. jeers. There was nothing of a contract or a bargain. There were no parties to the contract, and there was no subject.matter for a contract, to act upon. Did the lielhle Lord (Lord Stanley) when he brought in the Rill attire that any arrangement had been entered into with the Le gislatere of the islands ? Did he state that he was holding out terms or offering conditions on entering into a bargain 7 He said, directly and emphatically, the reverse. In Its speech made on introducing the pro. position on the 14th of May, 183.9., that Noble Lord distinctly stated that on every occasion the British Parliament had endeavoured to per suade the Legislative Assemblies, especially that of Jamaica, to enter into arrangements for mitigating the horrors of slavery, and it was the confident expectation of the House that measures would be concerted by the Colonial Legislature! which would carry into effect the wishes of Parliament. "It was thought that the friendly warning of Parliament would be sufficient to Induce the colonists to attend to its wishes. That warning, however, that admonitory voice, has gone forth, and for years and years been, I am sorry to say, unheeded and disregarded by all the Colonial Legislatures ; they have allowed it to be lost upon them, they have done nothing to further and accomplish that great measure which the mother country, eleven years ago de clared to be so just and so desired. But the voice of warning has been found to speak in vain—the tongue of honest and affectionate counsel has not been heeded, I will not deny that if we look to the measure% agreed upon try the Colonial Legislatures since the period I have alluded to, seine iMprovernent may be found in points affecting the physical condition of the slaves ; but I do assert boldly, end without fear of con tradiction even from themselves, that essthing has been done of that nature, extent, or character which may fairly be characterised as a step toward the ultimate extermination of the system. I therefore now cell upon the House to take the matter at once into its own hands." There was no compact, therefore, with the Legislatures.— (Hear, hear.) But it might be said, that if there was no contract with the Colonial Legislature there might have been one with the planters, and that they entered into a bargain with the Goverument of the day, whirls was sanctioned by Parliament, and which, Sieving the force of a contract, could not, on the one side, be violated without at least demon. strafing that it had been violated on the other. There had, indeed, been a meeting between Government and the planters; and what was the result? Mr, Stanley, then Secretary for the Colonies, said, "He did not wish to speak in the language of complaint; but he must say it was impossible to negotiate with a body such as the West India deputation, which attended to hear proposals with au. thority to object to them, but without authority to offer any suggestion, or propose any modification in a plan which they rejected. He stated to the Deputation distinctly, that it was the intention of Government to carry into effect safely, and if possible with their concurrence, a COM, plete extinction of slavery, and that such extinction must form the basis of any plan on which Ministers would consent to act. The Deputation declared they had no power or authority to propose any plan. Four of the number did, in their individual capacity, offer to his notice a plan, to which he should nut have alluded, but that he found it had sine° been given to the public. The proposal was, that a grant should be made to the colonists of 44,000,0001. sterling; that the colonial proprietors should enjoy all existing rights over the eaves for a period of one-and forty years ; and that that ono.and.forty years was to be estimated holm the time the 44,000,0001. could be patd out of the wages of the slaves, with four per cent. interest, and one per cent. sinking fund." As he said before there was no contract with the Legislatures, and it was clear there was no contract with the planters. There was nothing iit the na. tore of a contract. The principle was asserted that ilegto slavery should be extinguished. The extinction of slavery was the prin ciple asserted, and upon thet principle they legislated.--(Hear.) They determined to extinguish negro slavery, and the Noble Lend the Member for North Lancashire—so far from thinking that the planters were entitled to have their negroes purchased by this nation, what was his original proposal ? His first proposal was to lend 15,000,0001. to the planters to enable them to get through their present difficulties. It was but a loan they were to get, both the principal and interest, and it had no connection with the purchase of the negro popu lation. And now when they heard of compacts, and of the violation of contracts, he would call back the attention of the people to the determi nation which then animated them to obtain extinction of slavery, a determination which might be lulled for a particular period into a tran quillity which should give no manifestation of its existence, but never theless a determination which was not dead but only slept, and which would rise again imperatively to demand that negro slavery should bp utterly extinguished, not in name but in teality.—(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, in speaking of the de termination of the people, used these words:—" There is a growing determination on the part of the people of this country to put an end to slavery, which no one can deny or wisely despise; a determination the more absolute and the less resistible, because founded in sincere religi. ous feelings, and in a solemn conviction that things wrong in prin. ciple cannot be good in practice, and that determination is expressed in a voice so potential that no Minist' r can venture to disregard it." He (Mr. O'Connell) said now that that voice was so strong that no Minister could venture to disregard it.—(Loud cheers.) The voice spoke emphatically from one end of Great Britain to the other ; it spoke from the inmost recesses of Ireland ; and that voice was so potential, that no Minister could venture long to disregard it ; and after the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Sugden), and after the powerful manner in which he had put the violation of the terms upon which we paid the '20,000,0001., after the informations that had been spread amongst the people by the Anti-slavery Societies—the Government might get a majority against this motion, but it was sub. stantially carried in that House.—(Cheers) He hoped that on this sub ject the House would not exhibit another instance of a want of sym pathy between them and the people. 'The people understood that they had given value for emancipation. The bringing in of an Act of Par liament was a confession that they had not got a return.—(Bear, heat.) It was impossible to say that they had. For four years the Government had brought in no Act for enforcing the Emancipation Act. Why did they do so now ? In November last the delegates from the Antislavery Societies waited upon Government, and urged them to pass some legislative measure. Government refuset to bring in any legislalive WO4, sure then, but they were bringing one in now ; and why Was it to pro tect the negro ? No; but it was to prevent their having a resolution of that House in favour of the negro, and to make it an excuse to some to vote against the motion, and holding out hopes that something would be (WU. But the negro must have the protection of a vote of that lieu% and of an Act of the Legislature. The House must respond to the voice of the people at large. He had endeavoured to show that there was nothing o f what they could call a cm - strut in this case, that there could be no parties to such a contract, and that no value had been received for the 0,00,001. that had been paid. The planters had no right to resist the voice of the people in legislating; they did stet want their assent, and they did not ask it. But the 15,(10e,(1003 of loan were converted bounty foe the extinetion of slavery;'l; this given iuponinto a grant of 20 , 0 00,0003. ts e p b e people this large consented sumtowgaisve h isolations which the Legislature had enforced or intended to enforce. One of the conditions was, that the planter should have the benefit of the services of the negroes for six years. lilt Fowell Buxton, than whom no man ever rendered theater service to the cause of humanity —than whom oo man had written his name on the page of humanity in brighter letters — (Laughter)—endeavoured to abolish aptwentlee ship altogether; and he (Mr. O'Connell) rep:Minh:red the prophetic words of the Noble Lord the "eleinleer roe Northumberland (Viscount Howick) Vl4-11 declared on that occasion that the only sails ? f,wtory and saris course was immediate emancipation. This 140 0 1 0 Lord was, however, overruled; and if the etosy so true thet the casting-voice th at overruled ',A i m t'he cabinet was that of a Noble Lord elsgythev, it affoided a - s t rang e contrast to that. Nol,,ts, sen 4 %-e,erSteg Lord's present exertions.—(Hear, ;wag.) 11 n A ight Ltt saint tiAa n t hq was stqofig in ro4ing cnIS iNkA• .tits had attended anti st'avery meettpe; felt tithlnly xe . Ar4, .-krnl no diflbrence of political opinions 1t ct p lc polluted ouch m ee tings except the last.—(Cheers) He had met Whigs and Tories, Orangemen and Roman Catholics, and ; , s l.l ai the same arena, struggling for a purpose that wag creditable to their common humanity ; and he must say that political difneren ce, party zeal, or party attack had never milled in 'their proceedings until tin; Not because anything was said at the meeting, but because some news paper inserted something which displeased the Noble and Learned Lord. He therefore said this, that if he were the party who decided by his casting voice against the immediate abolition of apprenticeship, and who was now so exceedingly anxious to effect that object, he envied not his feelings, however much he might envy his great and transcendent ta• lents.--(Cheers.) Eut to return to the subject in hand. He would say that the contract was null. They had granted to the planters a Loon of 20,000,0001. for the extinction of slavery. But it was not an absolute bcon. There were conditions attached to it, end it lay upon the planters to prove that those condi' tiens had been performed. It was not for him to show that thel had violated those conditions ; he charged them with not having pct. .f formed the conditions of the grant, tend he challenged them to the proof Who asserted that they had performed those conditions ? Nobody. HO had never hear any one assert that they had done so. No man was r .aad enough to say so. The only assertion made was, that they had 'not vio. lated the conditions universally. What was the nature of those ccndl. tons ? If the planters relied on the performance of th os e conditions, they must themselves have completely performed o ; ens , A part perfor mance would not do. One point out of 10 1 , fi or 90 out of 100, would • not do : there must be a lomplete Perfr'lmance. But those conditions ; had been almost universally broken. e He appealed in proof of this to the Government, to the Honourebiee Baronet p w l h al i i c t l e t r h B e h s a o , u i g n h e t t p to er i c.s nt .t ro in tl ed e, e (Sir G. Grey), and to the BP ' s the its A el f f te d r e a m l o ap n s s e tr e a f ted ro t . l : i r at ye T r e , Government trOught in a Bill to enforce the performance of Cons Of the Act of 1833. Wh a t h a d b een d one durino 'the fourye a rs 7 What compensation were they to h ave f or those fie they do years ? Could do anything for the s u ff er i ngs o f th e nefe.Thes all that time Could they take the stripes off the ba ` .) ;ss of the female labourers ?nt' Could they give a proper allowance ' of food for those f o Ye.M s 7, No, they could s' the condi eo nothing to perform the conditions now. Time was the easee ..ce of the contract, if contract it was—it was the Dort "" ".seiw. of the conditions. The object which the people of ... ..,d had in the tmpancipation had been utterly defeated- He begged to remind the people of England that the honourable baronet (Sir G. Grey), with his highly cultivated mind, with his full preparation for the subject, and after the fullest research, with all the aid of official industry, came forward to muke out his case, and he (Mr. O'Connell) firmly appealed to the British people upon the case made by the Hon. Baronet himself (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet of cottese produ ced his strongest documents; for tf there was one gentleman snore likely to select the documents that suited his purpose, it was no cons pliment to say that the Hon. Baronet was the man. The first document. cited by the Hon. Baronet was from a dispatch dated the oth of July. 1836, and which was as follows :—" I have the honour to enclose hert with the usual quarterly reports of the special justices in original, Tla most striking feature contained in the majority of them is the in creased kindnesss of the managers to the apprentices ; they } rave , in fact, found from experience that the most advantageous r e: annor of ma naging them is by conciliation. While, however, this i. distinctly stated in several cases, lam sorry to say it is not ttiliseareat, I know several at- • torneys who continue their old system of the lb. of flesh, which I unhesitatingly pronounce to be the worst possible policy, and that many a proprietor in Englasi will deeply suffer if they do not throw on one side all the nonsense which i s so prevalent about the negro cha racter not being known." * " Now the desire to annoy the people has, touch ceased, though it exists in some places still. At first, however, I am quite certain that several of the lowest sort of book keepers and overseers have, out of spite to the Bill which set the slaves free, determined *so annoy them ; this of course did much harm, and I the more re;oiee at the report that this feeling seems to have rapidlY Passed, away. These people have, in many instances, had all their fermer allowances of food and indulgences stopped from them, and for• sonic unwillingness to labour, or some reason, whether deservedly or not so, their Saturdays are often taken from them. How, then, ale • they to exist but by theft ? The cases are, however, not very general, and some bright examples of kind and good conduct are to be seen in all parts. I would particularly call your attention to the beneficial effects . of the humane system of management exemplified in Mr. Baynes" re- • ports of the parish of St. John's, where Spring Vale, under the managemen t of Mr. J. Wright Turner, exhibits an absence of complaint which is quite extraordinary." Now, what was this brought to prove ? The wel l working of the Bill, though there was the solemn attestation of the Governer in his dispatch, to the malpractices which had occurred under the law, to be placed in juxtaposition with the single exception afforde d by the management of Mr. Turner in Spring Vale. It was not he who read this; it was the Colonial Secretary and it was adduced to s upport the ease, that the conditions upon which the Act proceeded were com plied with, simply and solely because no complaint proceeded from one district called Spring Vale.—(Hear, from Lord Stanley.) Would th e Noble Lord cry " Hear" to that part of the dispatch in which the fre quent departures from the law were dwelt upon, and in which it Wa s stated that there still were attorneys who " exacted the pound of flesh," and who, in the insolent spirit of half-defeated tyranny, persisted in their cruelty towards those unhappy men for whose liberation we ! I t ' paid twenty millions of our money.—(Cheers.) Did the Noble 1 ,01. d cheer now ; Did he approve of such practices ? The Noble Lord talked of the "extinction" of slavery, and he used the same expression regard ing another matter—(Hear)--and in both cases the thing continued on l i in a more aggravated form.---(Hear.) And this plan was the proof of the Noble Lord's wisdom; this apprenticeship system, by which he over ruled the proposition of the Noble Lord the Secretary at War ,: But there was another passage, in a dispatch of the Marquis o f Sligo, dated the Ist of August, 1836, in which that Noble Lord says—" Your Lordship having been pleased, in your dispatches of the 24th of April and of the 14th of June, to direct me to turn my attention to some enactments to remedy the deficiencies in th e abolition law, for the purpose of preventing the p e rp e tration of s uc h cruelties as are therein alluded to, I have the honour to state, and I d' so with much pain, that the necessity for such enactments becoreee. every day more and more apparent to me, and that the hope I enterta n of the existence generally of ameliorated feelings, though justified rn many instances, is not universal. I must, however, remark, that prevalence of such a system, as 1 must consider to be objectionabse, an e in particular districts only ; still they must be provided against, 4 though much blame has attached itself to me for having u sed on former occasion the same language, I again say, advisedly, tha t the _re medy must come front home." Nosy this despatch was written lue7 than two years ago, in which distinct warnings were given, and special instances of the working of this law were supplied, which demonst rates !, that the conditions on which this Act passed were not performed, 211 , that every species of cruelty still continued to be perpetrated. T h Government was called on then by the Marquis of Sligo to legislate ill the year 1936. They did not legislate in 1830—they did not legislate Its 1837—they did not legislate in 1838, until they introduced an amendment on a motion, which, if carried, would ma k e all further legislation on this subject totally unneces sar y .— (Heart hear, hear.) But see how they confirmed the c ase on which he relied by their Bill. He thought every part of that measure was calculated to do so ; but there seas one topic in it on which he should reply at some length, because it was omitted by the Honourable Gentlemen who so powerfully introduced the pres ent motion. motion. Why, the very preamble contained a distinct admission said'. the conditions of the Act were not compiled with, for it di • " whereas it bath since appeared that further provisions are necessary f for the protection of the apprenticed labourers in the said colonies, o giving full etilact to the intent and meaning of the said Act for the?' titian of slavery." Who said this 7 The advocates of the resolutiod; No; but the opponents of it; those who talked of " compact" an nd tl4 " violation of engagements." These were the men who admitted up to the present moment the abolition Act had been carried into effect' and that teirther enactments were necessary to give it operation. d (Hear, hear.) Why we gave away our money four years ago ;we , the purchase money four years ago ; and why within that P er of four years which had elapsed—why not in last Novemb er he .- declare that the negroes had been so ill treated tha t Government had determined that they should have two ueeJ of the week to themselves—namely, Friday an d S a turday? they preferred to withhold all legislation until they now came forward with a measure not for the benefit of the negro, but in order to p re iot vent the benefit which must result fr o m thi s reso l u ti on being ear ned ' The Bill then went on to appoint a kind of dictator. Nosy he didnot e. complain of this ; but why did they not appoi n t him i n the beginn'7 4 before the negro suffered four years of bondage.—(Hear, hear.) A ich that, seek! the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, is th e o n ly rented,' w h t . you now propose for the evils which you acknowledge to exist. y es ' . you never can legislate against nature itself, and expect humane , 3 generous, and beneficent feelings from those who are made the t ls is - masters of their fellow-men.—(Cheera.) There are some men ain n °fl e g ut . the planters as remarkable as any in the community f o r their Ito e y _ r Integrity, and charitable feelings ; but I speak of the general and ;e' whelming mass of the proprietors, and, above all, of the lower in st r, menta of power—the attorneys and agents. Legislate for them l a, cannot. You cannot possibly entrust to any man dominion over artet: he and expect that he will adequately discharge the respo n sibility whi ch o f thus incurs. You ca nn ot g i ve one m an a p ro p er ty i n the labo ur another, and hope that his cond u ct w ill b e f ree f rom fault.—(Cheer o f Well, after four years of admitted suffering, you depute a dictator re limited authority to do that justice to the negroes which Yon b failed to afford them. I do not stop to inquire why this Bill does give full discretionary powers to the Governor, and make hint not 3 n . " 1 1, handed or left-handed dictator, but invest him with authority to e nn° 0 cipate the negro if he should think fit. I am not asking le a° , of that, but something else infinitely better. What is the next ela ns the Act ? How characteristic is the secti on w hi c h f o ll ows that eats,n Wishing a despotism? It i s t o a ll ow th e negro th e t i me spen t in g°l A to and returning from work. If any man in England had s tated c, doubt, when this Act was under consideration, that the master wou ldr ee quire the negro to go to his wo r k t wo or th ree m i les, and wor k eight nine hours, without allowi ng f or th e ti me spent in proceeding t o and , F lt turning from the place of labour, he would have been laughed at the the negro were to remain at h o me f or t wo or t h ree hours, could t o , master be persuaded to consider tune so spent as consumed in h i ' e gos ployment ? And yet when he transported hin t th ree , f ou r, or five M in in a day, he did not make any allow a n ce f or th e ti me thus pass ed t A proceeding to the place where his work was to be done, but ded nc a it out of the miserable remnant of his labour, allowed to the n. prentiee after the proprietor's claims were satisfied.—(Hear , v e a , it Was that the intention of the Legislature ? It was not. t oe the intention of the Government ? I admit it was not. W e P t his that neither one or the other had any such view by now enacting , clause to remedy the universal violation of the conditions of t he ori to and to prevent a further spoliation of the negro's time, in add iu q uar, the deprivation of four years, which he has already undergone. ` ejo t a hear,) Do we propose to give him any compensation ? I have b 5 it sit great deal of compensation. I always thought the negro deser ve de ti our hands. He, at all events, now deserves that which it is ou r ere .) to give him, and which all England demands—his liberty. —( " o ,in It is impossible to do justice otherwise. The master obtained a t .. , e Gee the negro's labour only on conditions; anti it is impossible fo r t n vornment to resist the emphatic declaration that these conditions wh at beets violated, and that the negro ought to b cestomary allowanceew; e free.—(Cheers.) _ 40 11 is the next clause ? It provides that their to , be continued to the negroes. Why was it not clear and l en° , re p. everybedy that by customary allowances the law intended th e bee should be allowed so much as to afford him, in the absence of o :_b etie a full subsistence ? What has been the operation of the law in th is. cuter ? Look to Sir Lionel Smith's last speech to the Jamaica a :arse ture, where it is said that in some instances the apprentice is i n u ? o con dition than the slave. Was it for thi s we gave th e twenty n Was it that the negro should be stinted i n th e ar ti c le of food the if there is anything which appeals with irresistible force '__, ° „,ess human heart, it is the eotsdition of a man who works without .77),et and who even then is n u t merc if u ll y treated: And s h a ll it be saif eroe e the people of England will en d ure th e cont i nuance o f such wk",, of abuses Oh, but it is said th a t we canno t spea k o f the continua:lod/ this system, when t wo-t hi r d s o f t h e per i od of apprent i c e s hip have . w hirl' elapsed. Well, I ask y ou t o g i ve th e negro th e re maining third', s The is the ouly reli e f h e can now o b ta i n at your hands.—(Hear, beanopar advocates sbr immediate emancipation are taunted with referring tieular instances, and not establishing au thin' like unieersce .iity wee abuse ? Why , one o f th e e l ause l of this Act gives every Of thinks fit the power of visiting prisons. And again, the .stllh this Act stet?: that the proprietors of estates should fund aPs tiefA While In confinement or in hospital with food and nevi"; „ o pt though the word hospital is introduced, there is no proyisiortio! r e , ga le , ,would seem a necessary ceensequence—medicine. Do you di_ .to leave the conittlii,tion of this provision to the planters, and l lee ee I their discretion unfettered as to that which, would naturally suers wells impose c. 44 spent the obligation of providing food and necessaries, it ,f ,5,1 13 to the mind of any man legislating for the wants of those negro l e e islate 0 medicine? Thlionle shows how hopeless is the attempt to b _ n in rtouched this enieteest its its present position. The next point _ their the Bill applies to the valuation of the apprentices on ses ,,l %b ui d be state set free as soon as lw i l ave proof of his ability to enjoy . a e 6ho wed discharge. Now, was it not, ititended that the apprentice s" of liberty; apsi is not notorious that just in proportion n ecurnu isted. hig,saie to be industrious the price of his liberation a the at a re the law was so arrameete that he was shut out t fro A ra n what are Sage of purchasing hes creedoni at a fair valuation h ' .m a that right of you now gone; After four years you give °lM,ifi+ll foie valuation, which you ought to have i secured beil"