The Sun. — London, England, 1838-05-04 00:00:00

enable them afterwards to take advantage of it.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord admitted that the Commission of which he was a Hem_ ber did not think it right to enter into the question of Church leases, and for that reason the Committee now appointed would have to inve s e_ gate what were the advantages and disadvantages of Church property, with a view of deriving increased means to assist the Established Church in the quarters in which it was found most deficient. The No ble Lord thought the Commission unfit for the consideration of such to pics, as an inquiry into private concerns, and was unwilling to impose on it so invidious a task. What, then, was the Committee to inquire into matters which were considered of too invidious a character to be sub emitted to the Commission P Were they to have dragged before the Committee those private concerns which the Noble Lord refused to al low to be investigated by a Commission of which he was a Member, in common with several Prelates ? He would not detain the House by fur ther arguing against a Committee. He would only offer a few obser vations as to the second motion, which referred to the appropriation of the surplus which might ultimately result from ese Improved nea nagement of this property. He did not think it cation to discuss the question whether cedes;;. :;' - .:.ecessary sir that oe devoted to the general purposes of the ' cleat property ought to b e point were well k nown and remained• ,ate. His o pi n i ons on th at that every man in the House w!;"' •mattered ; but this he th oug h t, mated that if th ere were lees- , ever addressed it on this subject ad_ ought in th e rest i nstance .nds on the p ar t o f t h e Ch urch itself, they to be satisfied. He asked the N o bl e L or d , least let the mann then, if h e were deter , ' emed to undertake th e h azard of an inquiry, at - priated, and lee ' t - "* .be defined i n w hi c h the money was to be appro found to s it be stri c tly app li e d to the uses of the Church, if it were .nd in need o f i t. —( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord's resolu_ doth'eugh they ent ere d i n t o a variety of other t o pi cs, ent i re l y om i t _ :y reference to the interests of the country at large in the appro. I ne estion of religious instruction to the people. He asked the Noble Lord whether he had forgotten the statements which he himself made with respect to the wants and necessities of the people? He would not weary the l louse with details, but give a few statements put forward by the Commissioners in their Report. They said that in one diocese there were four parishes the population of which amounted to 166,000, with only eleven Clergymen of the Established Church, and in which the accommodation was limited to 8,000. In another diocese thes e Were twenty-four parishes, containing 730,000 inhabitants, cr....rusted to forty-five Clergymen, with accommodation for little m ore than 60,000 persons. In another there were 230,000 P e rsons, and only nineteen Clergymen ; proving on the whole th::c there was only one instructor to 16,000. When, then, they ;sand that the Church ac commodation, aided by the spiritual aeedstance of the Dissenters, fell short by six -tenths or seven-tentes ee; supplying the wants of the people, this was the first object to se . directed. nich he thought their a tt en ti on oug h t to be --(H se -ear o ee'c Hon. Gentleman (the Member for Kilkenny) said, " All thi s ig Peery well; b u t th e gett i ng rid of Church-rates is a Pre-eminent r -onsideraticn, because the payment by Dissenters is a g riev ance n r . which they have a right to complain."—(Hear, hear.) He a greed ` r :ith the Noble I.ord that this was a case in which they were he 'un'li to make a preference, and to choose between subjecting the pro tleety of Dissenters to a tax of 50,0001, a year, and depriving one mil lion of the people of the means of religious instruction. —(Cries of Oh, and hear.) He should certainly vote for such an amendment of the resolution as to prevent the appointment of a Committee ; and if, un fortunately, that should be lost, he should most cordially support the proposition which called on the House strictly to define the objects to which the surplus property should be a pplied.--(Opposition cheers.) Mr. W. EVANS thought the Right Honeeirable Gentleman who had just spoken came to rather an extraordilerry conclusion when he stated that there were a million of the peeple wanting religious instruction, and yet refused to afford the only means by which spiritual relief could be adequately su PP ll ed. — (reeud cries of " Hear, hear.") Now surely the most rational and prudent course was first to determine what was the real extent of the property, and then to see in what mode it might be bes t applied.— ( ,Hear, hear.) H e l oo k e d upon it as no small object of the inquiry, that it might show that there was not that enormous sum belonging to the Church, in the county of Durheare, which was generally supposed. The deans and chapters of t hat :ee did not, he believed, receive more than one-fourth part of the:ir nominal income. He thought it extremely desirable that every facility should be afforded for the improvement of Church property; and it was his persuasion that leases of twenty-one years, renewable by fine every seven years, afforded the best means of accomplishing that object. In conclusion he should merely say that he should sup. port the resolution of the Noble Lord with the greatest pleasure and satisfaction. Sir R. H. INGLIS did not deny that it was true, as it was stated by the Noble Lord, that there was in this country a general feel.. mg that a portion of the property of the Church might be taken away from it----(Hear, hear)—but he thought that in the debate this evening some Honourable Members had omitted, in consider ing the questicn which was for decision, to call the attention of the House to a very material point, for it was said that they must first sonsider what was the value of the property tefore they proceeded to take it from the church. He, however, submitted that there was one primary question for consideration before the House came to an inquiry upon the value only of the property, and that was the right which they possed to interfere with it at all.—(Hoar, hear.) If it was admitted to be public property, then, indeed, the single question for consideration won el be, what was the value of it, and how it could be best appropri ateee but he contended that is was not public property, because the Go vernment gave it to the church, and made it the property of the church, RS much as the Honourable Member for Kilkenny had obtained posses sion of any of the property - which he now enjoyed ; and therefore he held that the House had no more right to investigate that property than they had to institute an i"equiry into the ef f ects of the Honourable Member. —(Hear, hear.) He would beg to ask the Noble Lord whether, in the event of his succeeding in this motion, he was not himself to have the n aming of the Committee, and whether he would not take good care that the majority should not consist of such HonOtirabie Members who were pledged, he did not mean by any dishonourable means, but by their known and expressed Opinions, to such means being adopted as he himself desired ; and be lieving this to be the fact, he trusted that no Hon. Member would vote in support of the motion who was not prepared to accede to the proposi tions which the Noble Lord had made in his address.—(Opposition ch eers.) It was a highly popular doctrine that the amount only of the means in the possession of the Church should be inquired into, with a view to its being ascertained what they had to deal with ; but he hoped that Hon. Members would excuse him for calling their attention to the fact, that the Noble Lord had, in his observations to the House, pre judged the question, and had stated the views which he entertained upon the subject.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord, he must confess he thought, seemed extremely desirous of postponing the consideration of this ques. tion ; and that this was his object, he thought, was plainly exhibited by the course he had taken in this and in former Sessions. In 1637 he did not attempt to take the sense of the House upon the subject until the Ses sion had advanced five months, and now, although Parliament had assembled in the middle of November, it was the 93d sitting day of the House before he brought forward the question—(llear, hear)—now, having announced to the world, in the most formal manner, that the coronation was to take place on the 28th of June, and there being a very strong and not unreasonable impression that the sitting of the House would be prolonged much after that event. The Noble Lord, ins deed, had told the House that he did not propose to legislate on this subject during this year, and even if he were so disposed the extensive and intricate subjects which were involved in the matter for consi deration were of such a Nature as to prevent the Committee ter. minating their inquiries in less than two stesions; for although the question did not extend itself to the mieior details alluded to by the Hon. Member for North Durhaea, it was yet sufficiently long to occupy a Committee more 'than during the remainder of this session and the w h o l e of any subsequent session of any ordinary length. The whole of the arguments of the Noble Lord appeared to be in reference to 'the rights of property of the possessors of cathe dral interest, and would apply as much to any other life tenants what ever; but the Noble Lord had drawn a distinction between ecclesiasti cal proprietors and lay proprietors, and he was prepared to say that a distinction did exist, although he was prepared to contend that the dis tinction was not of such a nature as to entitle the House to rob the one and to protect the other. All the instances of abuses which the Noble Lord had stated were created by Act of Parliament, but at the same time they were the abuses of individuals, but they gave no right to take away the property of all for the delinquency of a few. Let the wrong doer be punt-sped, but why should the innocent man suffer? The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had asked the House why the Established Church shoul'e be supported at the expense of other parties P He wouid answer tie',s question by another, and he would inquire whether the Established Church asked to be supported by any means but by its own ? Did it re quire more than the unfettered exercise and appropriation of its own property P Even with regard to the church rate question, now, no per son would dare to say that the rates did not of right at common law be long to the Church, and therefore he had a right to say that the Hon. Member was not justified in accusing the Church of robbing the com munity of its money, or of depriving the Dissenters of what they had a right to retain. The church-rate was not on the Dissenter as such, but it was tin the property which he held, and the same amount of property, if it were held by any other persons, would be liable to the same amount of tax. The alleged object of the Commission was to inquire what good might he done by the proper application of Church property, but he was of opinion that if the Church had the power of disposing more freely of its property, infinitely more good would be done than could be done by any means as were now suggested. Ile concurred in the opposition offered to the present resolution of the Noble Lord by the Hon. Mem ber for North Durham, and he concurred also in the terms of the second resolution which that Hon. Member had expressed his intention to pro pose, in the event of thet of the Noble Lord being carried, and he did so because that resolution did not pledge the House to any pe culiar mode of appropriating the surplus funds of the Church—at least it limited it only to a certain purpose, without stating that the ad ministration of them should be in the hande of the commission —for, objecting as he did to the commission, he certainly should not concur in leaving to its administration any surplus which might be raised from the Church property, bttt lie should agree to the resolution of the Hon. Member, which did not pledge the House to take the property out of the hands of those who now possessed it. He would offer but one further observation, and he sincerely trusted that no Hon. Gentleman who dif. fermi from the Noble Lord in his intended appropriation of the property would be misled by his proposition for a Committee. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had already communicated to the House what were his own ideas on the subject, and they all well knew that if the Committee were granted the Noble Lord would have the nomination of it himself. Therefore it was that he desired that no Hon. Member would deceive himself into a belief that the Committee nominated by him would be nominated for any other purpose than that of carrying into effect his own views and dcsires--(Eiear)—to take the property of the Church. Mr. I'EASE said—With regard to the remark which had fallen as to the state of ecclesiastical property, he was much surprised to find that any doubt should be entertained on the subject. No person who was acquainted with the state of the county which he had the honour to represent could be ignorant of the fact that it laboured under very great disadvantages on this subject of ecclesiastical property, and there was no man, he was persuaded, who was not desirous that it should be placed in a position by which justice could be ob tained both to the lessors and the lessees. It was said that no petitions had been presented on the subject, but he had had the: ho nour to present one from Durham, praying the House to take into consideration the whole subject; the petitioners stating themselves to be followers of the doctrines of the Church, but alleging that nothing would redound more to its credit than that sonic alteration should be made in that particular. These persons, too, were placed in a position which would enable them to take a just view of the case, and their opinion was, in consequence, entitled to more weight, for they held their lands from ecclesiastical landlords. In those lands the amount of septennial fines per annum was '2,247/. 17s. 50., the amount of out-rents 3371. 13s. 1 1 p , the amount of corn tithes, 7931. 7s. 10d., and the amount of modus in lieu of hay tithe 21. 14s. 10p., while the turn of 2,22e1. 3s. 6d. was received for other rents of lands and small tithes; so that the annual income which was derived by the Dean and Chapter of the Cathedral was 5,6091. 17s. 7P. No person who went through the lands situated in the parish of Billington could avoid re. marking the striking difference between the state of the farms and the farm buildings there, in reference to these which were held under lay landlords ; and he was fully prepared to say that it would be infinitely snore advantageous to the farmers that they should hold under a tenure different from that under which their lands were devised to them, and that an alteration in the law in this particular would be advantageous both to the lessors and lessees, for both parties were now frequently brought into collision with each ch other, in a Manlier highly unsatisfactory ; feelings of disrespect being thus induced in the minds of the lessees in reference to those whom it was their duty to honour and obey.— (Hear, hear) Ile knew that in most instances churchmen could not be co bad landlords, but i n many in. stances sentiments suchash nid e s l e ill ed d a e s seribed were produced by their conduct. In a letter written by Mr. Gregson to Lord Dungannon, in, reference to this subject, after referring to the acts which had been passed for imposing restrictions on the renewal of leases by ecclesiastical persons, he said, "To all this, I take it for granted, you will answer, that the acts to which I have referred were intended for the benefit of the Church ; be it so, and in my opinion so would a proper adjustment conu for the redempti on or the leeaehol4s. I apprehend that no man of atm fence",fence",hie Inulhaeod or become entitled, by decent or o th er wise, to a leasehold estate under the Church, is absurd enough to ima_ gine that he is to have his property enfranchised, without paying an adequate consideration ; for my own part, as a leaseholder, and I may venture to say that in this respect I speak the sentiments of many others, it is only desired to have a fair and equitable consideration of our position, and that we are ready to meet the matter in a rea , onable manner, and would be glad to come into such terms for re demption as Parliament may deem alike advantageous to the Church and the lessees; for I have no hesitation in stating that it will be more acceptable to the public that the scale of adjustment should be fixed by Parliament, than under the schemes of any set of Cemsznissionses,” Reference had been made to the subject ef. u ' oralant leases, and on this he would read an extract fee— " Can it then be d ou b te ' _... the same letter. Mr. Gregson said, the lessees, that it is most desirable for the ( 22 . ....7Cit, for and should tie' stove all, for the country, that this d orman t cap i tal ' - wrought into play ? We hear and read enough of the ad ''':-..cages of emigration to Van Diemen's Land, to the Swan River, &c., where it is stated that the surplus capital of England may be so beneficially employed; and are we not constantly taunted with our delays in rendering justice to the unfortunate sister kingdom, where English capital would instantly find its way, if the finest country in the world was tranquillised. Now, I would ask you, Sir, whe ther it is not quite as reasonable t‘i expect that this English capital should be brought into action in our own country ? What great improvements and advantages would not instantly accrue to England by the enfranchisement of the leaseholds ! Every one would have an inducement to adopt a more advantageous system of cultiva tion, to drain, plant, build, and effect permanent improvements, which have never been applied to the leasehold properties in England, except to a trifling extent, where the property happens to be situated in some thriving commercial district." Most of the church property in the , county of Durham was situated in the very best part of the county ; but it was by no means the most improved property. That, however, in the neighbourhood of South Shields was an exception to this; but on this point he would a further extract from the letter of Mr. Greg. son :—" I hare been induced particularly Io refer to this part of the sult.int from the circumstance that, during one of the discussions in the 1a1..e Parliament, the improved state of the property of the Dean and Chapter of Durham at and near . South Shields was instanced as a proof of the statement to which I have just alluded ; and this fact was particularly referred to, and relied upon, by a Gentleman in Parliament, for whom I have the greatest respect; but every one at all acquainted with the locality of South Shields knows very well that it falls exactly within the exception I have referred to. South Shields ss near the mouth of the Tyne, one of the finest rivers in England, and where the coal trade, mannfactories, and almost every branch of commerce, are carried on to an amazing extent; the whole of the property for a considerable distance to the south and west of that town, except that which has been enfranchised of late years, is leasehold under the church ; and therefore any man desirous of con necting himself with trade there has no other choice than the buying or leasing dean and chapter property; thus its present state of value and cultivation is accounted for.' He did not mean to say that the church was a bad landlord ; but he denied the assertion that had been made on the opposite side, that leasehold property held under the church, and re newable every seven years on a fine was equivalent to freehold. He seas convinced, at any rate, that the people of Durham could not be convinced of this.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The fact, however, was, that the nature and amount of the fine levied varied very much, and in many instances within his own knowledge had greatly increased within the last few years. It was contrary to corn. mon sense to suppose that men would lay out their money on improving land when they had not a permanent, or, at least, a long interest in it. With reference to this subject he would read a further extract from the letter he had just quoted :—" But let any one go through the country generally, and he will soon find the leasehold lands are very far short of those in fee-simple in respect to every improvement, and it must inevit ably be so. Are men likely to employ their money in improvements whilst their interests are liable to be so affected by increasing fines for renewals? I have no doubt, however, that persons interested in the present system will be found to come forward and state it to be their be. lief that the Church property is as beneficially employed as it could be under any change of management; nor is it to be wondered at that such persons should take this narrow view of the question." He trusted that the House would give him credit for not wishing to bring forward the statement which he had felt it his duty to make on this sub ject from anything like sectarian views. —(Cries of " Hear, hear.") With regard to the Establishment, he dissented from it on eonscien. tious grounds, but he had never there or elsewhere said anything with respect to it which he had not felt it to be his duty to his constituents to state.—(Hear, hear.) On every ground, both of security to the Esta. blishment itself, as well as of justice to the Dissenters, he thought it essential that the present system of levying Church-rates should be got rid of. The hardships experienced under the present system were most oppressive to many who conscientiously dissented from the Establish ment. An instance of this had recently come under his own knowledge. Ile held in his hand an account of the expences attending a levy that was made on the property of a Member of the Society of Friends at Gateshead, for the sum of 12s. 6d. due for Church-rates, for which a cart was seized of the value of 101. He would read the details as they were specified in the bill of costs : Cart sold for Church.rate, 1834-5 l2s. 6d. Costs of summons, order, and warrant of distress, and service of summons and order 8 6 Church-rate, 1135-6 ... ll 5} Costs of summons, order, and warrant of distress, and service of summons and order. 8 6 Levying distress, in both cases, anal pos- session 8 Appraisement ~ 2 3 Stamp for ditto Auctioneer's expenses, advertisements, &c., . _ and expences of sale £3 8 tii Balance to return to Mr. Oliver The continuance of such a state of things must necessarily lead to a state of considerable excitement, and produce a degree of animosity and ill.will which every sincere Christian must sincerely deplore. He trusted that the House would have regard to the peace of the country, and would consent to the inquiry which was proposed by the Noble Lord, with a view to the regulation of the interest of both the lessors and the lessees of this property, and that the result would be the getting rid of the evils which were now experienced. Sir R. PEEL--The questions before the House, I take it, are these— first, whether a Select Committee shall be nominated to inquire into the possibility of creating an improvement in the value of Church property, by a different mode of leasing it out; and next, whether it would be desirable to attach, as a condition, in case that an improved value should take place, that the produce of such improved value should be applied solely and strictly to spiritual purposes, or an increase of the means of attendance on Divine Worship.— (Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") I shall resist this pretended inquiry, which it is proposed should devolve upon a Select Committee; but if the Howie shall con. sent to the appointment of such a Committee, I trust that it will be influenced by authority and argument, and if it be shown that the people of England are ardently attached to the Established Church of the country, that any increased revenue, if such there should be, aris. ing out of an improved system of leasing church lands, will be appro priated to the religious instruction of the people, and to no other object whatsoever. I confidently trust that this House will never esnsent to relieve the landed proprietary from the burthen of the support of the fabric of the Church to which it has always been liable.—(Cheers.) That :is the real view of the question.—(Hear, hear.) That is one of the obligations under which all hereditary estates have been inherited. It is also a condition under which all acquired property has been pur chased. Thus all property, whether acquired or inherited, was at the time of such acquisition or inheritance, liable by both common and statute law to the expense of supportiug the fabric of the Church. Ido not wish to oppose myself to the conscientious scruples of the Dissen. ters, who, however, are but a small minority of those to be benefitted by throwing the onus of supporting the fabric of the Church upon Church property." It is not the Dissenters who would be beneflited by such a measure so much as the great body of the landed proprietary, who are for the most part members of the Established Church, and upon whose property the obligation of supporting the fabric of that Church at pre sent rests.—(Hear, hear.) The real merits of the question now before the House are net to be determined by the mere formal words of the motion under which the proposal is couched.—(Hear, hear.) We must not look fur these merits in the terms of the proposition referring the subject to a Select Committee. We must look for them in the history of the whole proceedings of Government with respect to this question. —(Loud cheers.) We must look to the animus, to the tone, and tern_ per, and feeling in which the proposition is made. This is not the first time that the proposition has come. In 1824 his Majesty's then Govern. ment, at the head of which was Lord Grey, but connected with it were most of the Members o f th e p resen t Ad m inistration, a proposition was made on the subject of Church rates. It was said then that it would be most expedient to get rid of the existing system of Church rates, and substitute some other in lieu thereof. The substitute then offered, whether the most appropriate or not, was at least fair in principle. It was not proposed to transfer the burthcn to ecclesiastical property, but to render the State liable to the maintenance of the fabric. The proposed object was to relieve the conscientious scruples of the Dis senters by exempting them from the individual burthen; to aster. to in the precise amount of property which was liable; and in lieu thereof to render the Consolidated Fund liable for a similar amount. Lord Althorp at that time laid down the doctrine that it was a funda mental principle of the Establishment that the community of the State should be liable for the maintenance of the fabric. Thus, though the re lief was to be afforded to the Dissenters in so far as removing the onus of individual contribution, still it was insisted upon, as a necessary principle of the Establishment, that, if not the community, the State, at least, was bound to provide for the maintenance of the fabric.—(Hear, hear.) This was carried by the large majority, of I believe 116. Whylwas the principle thus affirmed by such a majority abandoned without any notification ? The sum proposed to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund by Lord Althorp, as a substitute for the rate to maintain the fa bric of the Church, was 250,000/. This proposition so made and so abandoned, had a natural and necessary tendency to raise the agitation (the description of which has always been exaggerated) on the question of church rates. The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer came forward last year with another proposition. He made a calcula. tion as to the increased value which Church property was susceptible of by a new arrangement. He looked for no Committee, he sought no inquiry, but brought forward his proposition on the responsibility of the executive Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman under a shal low pretence that the difference between him and me was but one of degree—that is between twenty-five and thirty years' purchase—that it was a question for an accountant and not for a Committee of the House of Commons—the Right Hon. Gentleman, in bringing forward his proposition, was exceedingly happy in the result of his calculations. —(Hear, hear.) He had the good fortune to find that the increased value to arise from an improved mode of leasing Church land would be just 255,0001.—(Cheers and laughter.) That is, in other words, just the amount of Lord Althorp's proposition, with 50001. to spare. Such was the fortunate—l might almost say the supernatural— result of the Right Hon.,Gentleman's calculation. Well, upon the strength of this calculation leave was asked to bring in a Bill, and on a division it was granted by a majority of 25. On the proposition for a second reading that majority fell to five. The measure was then aban doned, but now, for the first time, the House heard a proposal made for a Committee to inquire into that which the Right lion. Gentleman had previously and peremptorily settled by means of his calculation. With this statement before the House I ask whether any one will believe that the main object of the present motion is not to procure a substitute for Church-rates out of the property of the Church ? The Noble Lord opposite says that the qustion is of such importance as to render it impossible to leave it unadjusted longer than the next ses. sion. Let me ask him, if the case be of so urgent a nature, how does it come to pass that so much of the session has been allowed to elapse, and that it is not until the 3d of May he comes forward to ask for a Committee ?—(Hear.) If the necessity was so pressing as that this question must be adjusted in the next session, why was not this proposition made within one week after the meeting of Parliament ?- - (Renewed cheers.) A Committee was moved for last year, in June or July, yet nothing arose out of it. The House n:et again in Novem. ber, and still the subject remained where it was.—(Hear.) 'Why was the long interval between May and November suffered to elapse, and yet nothing done to forward a question, the decision of which was now in sisted upon as of so much importance. Why were not Ministers pre pared with some measure which could be laid before the House in all its details, and not come now at so advanced a period of the session to ask for a Committee upon a question, the prompt decision of which is so strongly insisted upon ? — (Hear.) I will not charge anything against the Noble Lord. I dare say his motives are most pure and honest; but if ever there was a proposition which had the appearance of being intended to gull both parties—to palter in a double sense both with the Dissenter and the Churchman—it is this.—(Loud cheers.) The Coronation is to come on the 28th of June, and yet a measure upon which so much is said to depend is not brought before the House until the 3d of May.—(Hear, hear.) It is utterly impouible, even if a Corn. mittee be granted, that such,Committee could rep or t i n a wa y w hi c h would satisfy the Country upon the nature of a property tottered VIE SUN, LONDON : FRItAY, MAY 4, is through so many dioceses, and held under such various tenures. I say it is utterly impossible at this late period of the session that a Corn. mittee can make such a report, on so involved a subject, as would enable Government to bring in a Bill upon it next session, if even they really had such an intention.—(Hear.) Supposing Ministers have no plan prepared, and admitting it to be so necessary that the question should be settled next session, why call upon parliament to interpose? Whydo not Ministers lay down some principle of their own, and thus do away with the uncertainty In which the question is kept ?- - (1 - ICar, hear.) If a Committee be granted, is that Clamant WO 1 ` ) "'"........e tile question o f appropriation 2 (Hear, hew see ing. I object tn it • object to this mode of proceed. this is-- e. s .• an evasion of their proper duty on the part of ernment.—(Cheers.) They have no right, by adopting such a course, to keep the question in suspense. Why not manfully take the sense _of the House upon whatever principle they have in view, and not stretch out the question to an interminable length ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers) Suppose all objections to naming a Committee be over. ruled, there still remains another and a more important question. Shall we, if it be found that the property in question is susceptible of the supposed increase by an improved administration, provided that it be strictly applied to spiritual purposet —(Heer, hear, hear)—that is, to the increase of the stipends of clergymen, where such in. crease is necessary, and affording the means of religious ob servance in places where they are at present deficient.—(Cheer ing.) Whatever relief you afford to the Dissenters, if the State do not bear the burthen of supporting the fabric of the Church, the real benefit will be given to property, which was always liable to that burthen by law. Before you determine you ought to listen to the authorities, which shows that it would be unjust to throw this hurthen upon the property of the Church. I know that if I merely question the authority of Ministers of the Church, of those who are supposed to re present the interests of the Church in the House, of those who from party connection or adherence to hereditary opinion are supposed to be warmly attaches! to the Establishment, that authority would be looked to with considerable distrust, and many would object to it. But I am armed with authority above all exception. There was not one document which did not bear the signatures of " Melbourne," " John Russell," and " Spring Rice."—(Loud cheers and laughter.) If I can prove my position on such unexceptionable authority surely the House ca of hesitate to agree with mc.—(Renewed laughter.) The Honoutilest e Member for Kilkenny has charged the Noble Lord opposite (John Russell) with being an utensil in the hands of others with respect to the report of the Church Commission. The Noble Lord, forsooth, was but the innocent clay moulded into shape by others—(Laughter)— but no proof of this allegation has been given. Before I proceed to adduce the evidence which I intend to lay before the House I still mak e one observation upon what hgs fallen from the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord said that when we held the reins of Government we never made any inquiry into or proposed any remedy for the defects of the Esta blishment—that we proposed no new distribution of revenues, nor ex hibited any intention of lopping of excrescences, with the view of applying the surplusage to make up for deficiency. Now my answer is simply this—that very measure which he has proposed to the House was founded on the report off a Committee nominated not by him, but by us. Is that doubted ? I myself was the first Minister who proposed inquiry into the subject. In 1834 I proposed an inquiry into the state of the venous dioceses in England and Wales, also into the state of the episcopal revenue and into the state of the several collegiate churches, as not being sufficiently con. ducive to to the efficiency of the Establishment. I also proposed an in quiry as to the residence of the clergy. I proposed this, and the inquiry was likely to have a satisfactory effect, for I carried the goodwill of the Church along with me. Yes, I repeat, the inquiry would have been made with double effect and with thrice the prospect of a useful refor mation, for there was the double guarantee. The Noble Lord, on the contrary, had alienated the Church from his plan of reform.—(Cheers.) They left in a state of doubt and uncertainty all the Interests of the less sees in such dioceses as those of Durham and Northumberland, by un dertaking that which they had not the •igour to effect nor the manliness to abandon, and they alienated from their side those grave and respect able ecclesiastics who would have co-operated with me in following up a steady reformation. I tell them now that their position with regard to the Church is altered. There is a great difference between what it was and what it is. They cannot command the passing of mea. sures necessary for the reformation of the Church, and that is the rea son why they attempt to take refuge in a Select Committee. Let them propose their measures. I will listen to them; but Ido not think my opinion will be altered, but I freely tell them that I do not believe they are masters of their own measures with respect to the Church. I tell them there is a party here—there is a party in another place--(Cheers and counter cheers)—but there is another above all, and more powerful than either—public opinion, which rallies round the Church in sufficient strength to give it ample and effectual support.—(Loud cheers, and cries of " Oh, ob.") Do you doubt it 2 If you do, why do you con tent yourself with a Committee? Why do you not introduce your measure of last year, or some measure for which Government will be responsible ? Why not propose, as has been before proposes!, a reso lution, stein it to be the opinion of this House that Church-rates 'should be abolished, and an adequate provision made out of Church property ?—(hear, hear, hear.) Why do you now say no thing of future appropriation ? Why do you propose now to inquire whether the fund be there ? You have learned the wisdom of the di rection—" First catch your hare." You were so sure last year that you did not take this precaution. The guests were all bidden before the hare was caught. However convenient the Noble Lord may find it to evade the explanation of the ultimate tendency of this proposed inquiry, I ask Mon. Gentlemen if he is not bound to specify, and we to know what are the conditions to which it is to be confined; but the Noble Lord has found it more convenient to make invidious reflections on Hon. Members, and to dwell on some eases of the misconduct of indi. vidual members of the Established Church, than to explain the ultima. tum of the inquiry. But who would for a moment contend that one or two cases of individual misconduct can cast a general imputation upon a large body? And admitting for the sake of argument that such cases of individual misconduct did exist, there is now no imputation against the present conduct of the dignitaries of the Church, and we ourselves should take effectual security, which it is our duty to do, by a careful attention to the private Bills presented to us, that such cases do not occur in future. This it is in our power, and it is also our duty to do. But with respect to what has been said of the general conduct of the body by the Noble Lord, I appeal to the opinion of the Commissioners, who, in speaking of the liberality that distinguished it, observes, " We notice the liberality of the higher Clergy, who, in spending large sums in the cleaning and repairing of their Churches, have drawn largely from their own incomes ?" Now, Sir, seeing that, first as to the pre sent conduct of the general body, there is no ground for imputing to them the sort of conduct of which the Noble Lord complains ; and next, that our own care may provide a remedy for any future attempts to sacrifice the property of the Church to individual interest, I say that there is no reason whatever for going into the present inquiry. —(Hear, hear.) But what has been said of the general body of the Deans and Chapters by the Church Commissioners in their report ? Why that " they have exhibited great liberality in embellish. ing and improving the fabrics of the Church, to the evident diminution of their own incomes." With this testimony to the general conduct of the Clergy as a body, I will say that a few instances of abuse, which occurred some years since, and which cannot now be remedied, are not a sufficient ground for an inquiry of this kind. Now, with respect to the conditions under which we are to enter upon the present inquiry, the report which I hold in my hand is signed, amongst others, by Mel_ bourne, Thomas Spring Rice, and Lord J. Russell ;" and from that re. port it appears, amongst other statements, that there were no less than 3,528 benefices under 150/. per annum, and that on many of them were no glebe houses, and on many others the houses were not fit for real. donee. The same report also states that there are many poor livings for which it would Ise very difficult to provide except by appropriting them to the Clergymen of the neighbouringparishes. Now this is the evidence upon, which I rely, and I beg the attention of the House whilst I read the extracts :—" It appears from the report of the ecclesiastical revenues commission, that there are no less than 3,528 benefices under 150/. per annum. Of this number 13 contain each a population of more than 10,000; 51 a population of from 5,000 to 10,000; 251 a population of between 2,000 and 5,000; and 1,125 have each a population of between 500 and 2,000. On every one of these benefices it is desirable that there should be a resident Clergyman ; but unless their value be aug. mented, it will in many cases be impossible to secure this advantage. The necessity of such augmentation will be greatly increased by the changes which we are about to recommend in the laws relating to pluralities and residence. The means which can be applied to effect the improvement are very far short of the amount required. Even were no addition to be made to the income of benefices having a pe. pulation below 300, it would take no less a sum than 235,000/. per annum to raise all benefi ces h av i ng a population of b e t we en 500 an d 2,000, to the annual v a l ue o f 2001.; those having a population of 2,000 and upwards, to 3001.; and those having 5,000 and upwards, to 4001. per ann." Again " The most prominent,however, of these de. fects, which cripple the energies of the Established Church, and circum. scribe its usefulness,is the want of churches and ministers in the large towns and populons districts of the kingdom. The growth of the population has been so rapid as to outrun the means possessed by the Establishment of meeting its spiritual wants, and the result has been that a vast pros portion of the people are left destitute of the opportunities of public worship and Christian instruction, even when every allowance is made fur the exertions of those religious bodies which are not in connection with the Established Church." " The evils which flow from this defi ciency in the means of religious instruction and pastoral superinten. dence, greatly outweigh all other inconveniences resulting from any defects or anomalies in our ecclesiastical institutions and it unfortu nately happens, that while these evils are the most urgent of all, and most require the application of an effectual remedy, they are precisely those for which remedy can be - least easily found. The resources which the Established Church possesses, and which can properly he made available for that purpose, in whatever way they may be hus banded or distributed, are evidently quite inadequate to the exigency of the case ; and all that we can hope to do is, to diminish the intensity of the evil." Some time since a reform was proposed of this pre_ . . . _ clone state of things by a curtailment of the income of Bishops, but even that was found to give only a surplus of 130,0001., whilst no less than 235,0001. was required to raise a certain number of livings to anything like a decent inceme. The question, therefore, which I have is submit is this—supposing you are able to realise an im proved value of 200,0001. or 250,000/. on Church property, will you apply it to relieve the land from the payment of Church-rates, or will :.ou attempt to remedy the deficiencies which are described in this Re port, inadequate as those resources, according to this very Report, would be, to do more than diminish the intensity of the evil. Under the circumstances, I submit that it is your imperative duty, before you enter upon this inquiry, to state the views and objects with which it was undertaken. When the House considers that in the diocese of Lichfield and Coventry, " there are sixteen parishes or districts, each having a population above 10,000, the aggregate being 235,000, with church room for about 29,000," and admitting the distinction which is urged between Church-rates and Tithes—(hear, hear)--I will ask whether the House will proclaim that because men dis sent from the Established Church they should- be relieved from the support of its fabric ? I entreat the Mouse to reflect whether, if this prinAple be admitted, it may not And another conscientious scruple to start up against the payment of rent-charges upon land.—(Hear, hear.) Wherever the property has come into the present possessor's hands by inheritance, has he not received it subject to this charge? Wherever lie has obtained it by purchase, his religious scruples have not prevented him from submitting to an abatement in the price proportionate to those burthens ; and this is a condition of property which he who is born in Scotland, and who dissents from the Established Church of this country is equally bound to submit to. If this new principle were udopted, why might not the Duke of Buccleuch, or any other great landed proprietor, insist that his religious scruples prevented his payment of those charges, and urge a claim against the support of a Church with which he did not communicate, with equal justice with the Dissenters ? The Houseshould in my opinion, consider that this is a tax, not upon individuals, but upon property, and w hether Lord Althorp was not justified when he stated that the State, and not the Church, would not provide for the mainte nance of the fabric of worship; but, above all, the House should consi der whether it is not their imperative duty, under the circumstances detailed to them in the report of the Church C ommission, to apply any surplus which might become available towards providing the means of religious worship in districts which were so destitute of it ; and I hope that with all these considerations in their minds the Gentlemen of England will pause before they sanction a measure which, with what ever view or object it may be proceeded with, must have the effect of discharging their own estates from the charges to which they had been hitherto subject, arid dzpriving the Church of tho se revenues upon which they had heard, from the highest and most undoubted testimony, the most urgent and imperative demands. — (Cheers,) it had The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Right Hon. Gentleman had, with great inconvenience as he thought to the House, though with great convenience to himself, combined two distinct questions. (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman and the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford had assumed that no one could vote for the committee unless he were also prepared to vote on the ques tion of appropriation of the proceeds of any improved management of church property to other than the purposes of the Established Church ; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) appealed from the Right Hon. Gentleman to the House if there were not many individuals who dif fered as to any appropriation of the property, but who, "vortheltis agreed as to the propriety of the per.,,_. same time while he did net doubt that the line es - _ employed by the Right Honourable Gentleman was a most convenient one for himself, he must thank him for it was one calculated to gain votes for the proposed inquiry; for holy could those Hon. Gentlemen who agreed in the present destitution of the Established Church refuse to inquire If the management of its pro: Porty were net suse-er * t!'_' fSr lifiiiiasVement i Those who thought with the n! g - ht .. Hon. Gentleman as to the necessity Of increased means must and ought to Vote fbr the prClPOsitiort of the Governinent. He did not sav this with d VieW Of disgitising the real object of the inquiry and of thus gaining a vote. The Objeet which he ekpeeted to gain by the in quiry was the proving that conaldCfabit adientsigtis might lie gained both to the lessor and to the lessee, by finding, Of tathet creiting, new value to the property of the Chur c h, a nd he would say that Is 4 was no friend to the Established Chdrch, who, admitting and deploring its destitution, refused to go into that inquiry, And if appro. priation of the improved value were such as to give the Church peace and concord that such a consideration ought to have great weight, even considered against the destitution that was brought forward. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that if the property were capable of an improved value, it ought to be applied exclusively to spiritual ends ; but did not the Right Hon. Gentleman consider that the maintenance of the fabric of the Church was not an ecclesiastical object? On that point he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could appeal to the autho rity of the Right lion. Gentleman himself, who had agreed to the prin ciple of the Irish Church Bill. The principle now involved was the same, and the Right Hon. Gentleman could not now turn round and say, that the property of the English Church was about to be devoted to other than ecclesiastical uses. The Right Hon. Gentleman appealed to the generosity of the gentlemen of England—he told them they pur. chased their estates subject to the burthen of the Church-rate, and asked them if they would now exonerate themselves from it at the expense of the Church; but in 1835 the Right Hon. Gentleman's no. tions were not so high as they now appeared to be; and he could ap. peal to the words which the Right Hon. Gentleman, then a Mi nister of the Crown, had inserted in the King's Speech, and when asked if among the burdens from which he intended to relieve the land he meant to abolish Church-rates, had answered in the affir mative. lie believed he had no charge of betrayal of confidence to fear if he told the House there was generally a pretty clear understanding between the Minister and the mover and seconder of the Address. Now he would assume an interview between the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Member for Liverpool, in which the Right Hon. Gentleman might be supposed to instruct the Hon. Member not to put Church-rates prominently forward, but to talk of local burdens and then, as it were, incidentally to ask if he meant Church rates. He thought the House would see that the Right Hon. Gentle- Man and the Government had not so widely differed —(Cheers.) The object of Government was not so much the relief to the rate-payers, but to put an end to religious contests and animosities, and to give con cord to the Church. To go back to the year 1834, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought the project of his Noble Friend Lord Spencer a great improvement, and calculated to put an end to the heart-burnings that so much prevailed; but he thought the present a better one, and ear more conducive to that end. If the Right Hon. Gentleman wished for a description of the frightful contests which arose from Church. rates, he need only refer him to the eloquent denunciations of his Noble Friend beside him.—(Cheers.) He was ready to defend the mea sure of 1834, and he would say that the disputes were neither confirmed nor produced by that measure, but by the evils of the system itself, He would admit frankly, and at the hazard of losing a vote, that it was his object out of the inquiry to obtain funds for the abolition of the Church rate.—(Cheers from both sides of the House.) It was not the first time he had heard it advanced that the motion for an inquiry was a mere subterfuge, but the justification of the inquiry was that it was not a mere arithmetical matter involving a few figures; but that it applied to such conflicting details that the labours of a Committee were necessary to consider and to reconcile them; and he would appeal to the Right Honourable Gentleman if he did not know that, although the principle of the measure were agreed on, it was im. possible, in the complication of usages, the different value of houses, min. ing, and arable property, to proceed without an inquiry by Committee; and he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman if it were possible to rectify the details and to reconcile conflicting interest except by such means ? Let Hon. Gentlemen only think of the consequences of the present system of leasing Church property. A Protestant Bishop called on, when his undivided attention should be bestowed on the awful and all. important state he was approaching, to have to think of leasing, receiving fines, and calculating rewards! He was surprised to hear the Hon. Gentleman who first spoke talk of the impossibility of persona of such virtue and dignity being influenced by temporal considerations. The Hon. Gentleman knew little of human nature or the power of temporal concerns to divert the heart from the contemplation of more important subjects. He would appeal for support to those Gentlemen who lived in the neighbourhood of Church property, and who were familiar with the unimproved land, which was not allowed to yield a proper reward for labour and capital. Such things arose from the present regulation of Church property, and it was upon such grounds that he wished the House to agree to a Committee. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said that the Government could not command a majority to carry a measure against the interests of the Established Church.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He did not regret those cheers—he did not appear there to do so—such taunts were a part of their policy, but they found it easier to utter them in vestry meetings and on hustings than in that House.—(Cheers.) He hoped Honourable Gentlemen would de cide with fairness and candour upon this Committee, which was by no means for the purpose of sheltering the Government, but of reconciling conflicting interests—an inquiry whether it be not profitable to improve the condition of the land, and to give peace and harmony to two con flicting parties. It was in this spirit that they made the motion--not as enemies but as friends to the Established Church. If the facts that should come out in the inquiry did not support their views, if they were not able to make out the case they expected, still much good would be done. In conclusion, he thanked the House for the attention with which it had heard him. The House then divided, when the numbers were— For the original motion of Lord J. Russell, that a Com. mittee be appointed Against it Majority On our readmission to the Gallery, we found the House in discus sion on the amendment proposed by Mr. LIDDELL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was his intention, after the able speech of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to have said one word in reply ; but as Hon. gentlemen opposite seemed to think that the proposed application was a desecration of church pro perty, and that any surplus could not lawfully lao applied to the abolition of church rates, and as this great principle was directly involved in the amendment of the Honourable Gentleman—an amendment intended to fetter, not the Committee, but the House itself. He (Lord John Russell) would read a few passages from the speeches of Hon. ourable Gentlemen opposite- In the debate on the Church Temporalities Act for Ireland the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had said that " the Bishop was entitled to let his land by Act of Parliament. He was sure that the Hon. Member would not deny shat it was from an Act of Parliament that the Church derived its power over these leases, and that the Act enacted that it should not be lawful for any Bishop to grant a lease for more than twenty-one years. It had been said that this provision was intended to prevent the aliena. tion of the property of the Church ; but what had been the practical effect of it ? The practical effect had been, that from a remote period the bishops had been in the habit of anticipating the revenues which in point of right belonged to their successors." And the Noble Lord had added, " That this bill proposed to add to the Church the power of granting leases in perpetuity, instead of confining them to grant leases for twenty-one years only. This would be a great advantage to the tenant, as it would enable him to sell his lease in perpetuity; and it was this very property, which was neither the property of the church nor the tenant in fee, which the Government were now prepared to sell under this act of Parliament." So that according to the noble lord's statement, leases might be granted in perpetuity and the increased value was not the property of the church, And what said the right hon. baronet the member for Tamworth on the same subject ? He said that "he did not object to the appropriation of some portion of the revenue of the Church of Ireland to a purpose which he considered to be strictly ecclesiastical—(Loud cheers)—and which lie believed would tend to increase its utility.—(Renewed cheers.) He was pre. pared, and he now only repeated those sentiments which he hail expressed in the last Parliament, he was prepared, he repeated, to admit that he thought that no settlement of the question relating to the Church would succeed which did not involve an arrangement on the subject :of church cess, and vestry rates."— (Cheers, and hear, hear.) It may be expedient, or it may not be expedient, eon. Untied the Noble Lord, it may be wise, or it may not be wise to apply any portion of the funds arising from the better management of the pro. petty of the church as a substitute for church-rates; but I cannot under. stand how, after the words which I have read, delivered by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, and fully admitting the principle, they can now maintain that those additional funds ought not to be so applied.-- (Cheers.) I have not another word to say.—(Renewed cheers.) Sir R. PEEL--But I have another word, and I appeal to high authorities-1 appeal especially to the authority of the Noble Lord himself in the discussion relative to the church-rates in ^nt inquiry ? At the argument England, which took place, be it remembered, after the prece dent which he now says had been set in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord " declared that his opinion remained unchanged ; and he thought the duty of the State, by means of Church.rates, or of some other public fund—(Ministerial cheers)—to mantain the buildings set apart fur the performance of Divine worship in a state of repair." And, in reply to the Honourable Member for Kilkenny, the Noble Lord added, that " whatever might be the anxiety of the Dissenter, they could not have been in ignorance or doubt as to the opinions of the Government. Two years ago Lord Althorp brought in a Bill on the subject, in which the princi ple was declared that Church-rates should not be abolished unless the State provided a substitute. He had never said anything inconsistent with that principle, or at least anything to lead the dissenters to sup pose that Ministers meant to abolish Church-rates without an equiva lent—(Ministerial cheers)—or that such an equivalent was to be found in the revenues of the Church."—(Loud cheering.) "To that principle he had adhered, and to it he intended to ad. here. On various occasions he had explained his views to the din ' setters, and they were satisfied that he did not intend to bring fv)rward any Bill that would accomplish their wishes." At the same time that this alteration of Church property is under considers. Lion, we have the Report of the Church Commission, signed by the Noble Lord, by Lord Melbourne, and by Mr. Thomas Spring Rice, in which it was said—'• One mode of rendering those incomes of the Bishops less uncertain would be to allow the existing leases. both for lives and for terms of years, to expire. But any plan for accomplishing this object must involve the necessity of borrowing money upon the security of the episcopal estates, in order to compensate the Bishops for the loss of the fines, which accrue to them under the present system, and which form an important part of their incomes. The practical re. stilt of such an Opel ation would be to transfer to the parties lending their money that interest in the episcopal estates which is now possessed by the lessees. We are not, therefore, prepared to recommend the adop tion of any general measure for allowing the leases for lives and terms of years to expire; although, for the purpose of correcting, in some degree, the inconvenience now arising from the great variations in the annual amount of the episcopal incomes, see recommend that facilities should be afforded for the conversion of leases for lives into leases for terms of years" And now I have not one word more to say.—(Cheers.) The gallery was then cleared for a division— For the amendment by Mr. Liddell, that the surplus be applied in extending the means of religious in struction 254 Against it 265 Majority The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the House ad. journed at One o'Clock. THE HULL, LINCOLN, AND NOTTINGHAM Itiltway.—This very important Railway, which will open to all the counties of the North of Europe, a direct communication with Birming ham and the iron districts ; the West of England and the cloth districts; Nottingham and the lace and hosiery districts ; Gloucestershire and the pottery districts; besideslconnecting Hull to London by a journey of not more than eight hours, is now, we learn, making rapid strides in public favour ; and considering that it goes through the most level part of Eng land, and will require little cutting and no tunnelling, and consequently be the cheapest railway ever constructed, we cannot wonder at it. It will also be the best and speediest route from Scotland to London, and from London to Scarborough, and the fashionable watering places of the North. We are surprised that it was not completed immediately after the Liverpool and Manchester line, for it would seem the palpa. ble interest of the Eastern part of the Island to prevent all the com merce from being transferred to the West. The Archbishop of York will give a grand enter tainment on the 16th instant at his residence in Grosvenor-square to their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and the Duchess of Gloucester. A large party has been invited to meet their Royal Highnesses. LONDON : FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1838. We have much pleasure in directing pnblic attention to the full report in our columns of this day of the proceedings at the great Anti-Slavery Meeting held at the Town-hall of Devenport on Wednesday, which we received this morning by express. We have likewise received a re port of the proceedings at the public meeting held on the same subject, on Monday, at Exeter ; but owing to the length of the debates in Parliament we are necessarily constrained to postpone its publication till to-morrow, or Monday. The Devonport meet ing was well attended by the Clergy of the stirs rounding districts ; and, notwithstanding a very intem perate display of unnecessary zeal on the part of a partizan of the Ministry, to justify the conduct of the Government upon this question, we are truly happy to state that the Meeting had the good sense not to suffer itself to view it with the jaundiced eye of faction. The Rev. Mr. LUNEY, who admitted the Toryism of his principles, solemnly dis claimed on the part of himself and friends, all political obi jects, motives, or views in the proceedings of the meet ing : and manfully admitted, that much as he was opposed in politics to Lord BROUGHAM and Mr. O'CONNELL, he was willing to proclaim to all who heard him, that had a majority of the pledged abolitionists per formed their duty with the zeal of the Noble Lord, and the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin, there would be no further need of an Anti-Slavery Association. The question, he contended, was not one of politics—it was one of religion and justice, and as such only would he regard it. Mr. G. TitomrsoN, who addressed the meeting at great length, and in a strain of fervid and impassioned eloquence, cordially responded to the view of the question taken by the Rev. Gentleman and his friends--a declaration which was received with loud cheers by both Reformers and Conservatives. It is a gratifying thing to be able to point to such a manifestation of unanimity of opinion upon a ques tion affecting the liberty of mankind. We cannot doubt, much less despair, of the rapid progress in civilization of a people, who, at the call of Justice and of Religion, can thus fling aside the trammels imposed by conflicting political factions, to struggle, side by side, for the triumph of a cause sacred to both. The people of Deyonport in meeting simply as men and Christians, to assist their fellow countrymen in giving freedom to the negro, have done honour to themselves, and have set a worthy example to others. We admit that in discussing the question of the unconditional emancipation of the coloured race in our Colonies, it is both allowable and proper to com ment upon the past conduct of th e Government— _ nay, we will go the length of saying that the recent Par liamentary proceedings of the Ministry with regard to this question cannot be too strongly censured. But if Mi nisters have already repented—as we are assured they have—of the error into which they were led, there can be no discretion in the advocates of so good a cause travelling out of the record wantonly to attack them for a repented-of offence. The speeches of Mr. WOOLCOMBE, the Rev. Mr. LUNEY, and Mr. THOMPSON, will well repay the trouble of a careful perusal. We omitted to mention that at the Devonport meeting, thanks were voted to the Marquis of SLIGO, for his Lordship'snoble and disinterested conduct, in announcing the liberation of the negroeS upon his estates on the Ist of August. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved last night for a Committee to inquire into the mode of granting and renewing the leases of Church property ; and, in doing it, gave an able and temperate description of the manner in which that pro perty is now dilapidated. He was too anxious, in our opinion, to vindicate himself from a charge of wishing to deprive the Church of the least part of its present posses sions. Being thoroughly convinced that every sect has an equally just claim to share religious instruction, and being also convinced that the national funds would be in adequate to provide religious instruction for all, in the same ratio as it is now provided for a favoured sect, we see no possible way of doing justice to all classes but to strip the Church of some of its possessions. That, however, is not the view taken by her MAJESTY'S Mi nisters, who are grossly and continually calumniated by those Episcopalians, to whom they have shown themselves the best friends. They only propose now to inquire into the methods of leasing Church lands, with a view to future legislation. They do not, however, disguise their wish, if the inquiry should show that a greater income than at pre sent may be obtained from Church lands, to appropriate the increase to the fabrics of the Church, so that Church-rates may be abolished. If the inquiry turn out as they expect, and they be in office next year, there is a chance that they will propose a measure to get rid of Church-rates ; but if circumstances remain as they now are—if no moral thunder shall before that time once more rouse the trembling Peers and the frightened Bishops to a sense of justice—it is quite certain that such a measure will not then receive the consent of the Peers. For the Dissenters, then, it is plain, though their property, as Mr. PEASE last night showed, is continually wasted and spoiled to provide the luxuries of worship for the rich members of the favoured sect, there is not the smallest hope of redress. Till time bring forth another revolution—the offspring perhaps of a bad harvest— they have not the slightest chance of obtaining justice from the Parliament. Its avowed creed, as far as the Church is concerned, is gross partiality, and gross injustice. Small as was the step which Lord JOHN RUSSELL last night proposed to take towards right, and distant as the prospect is, that he will ever reach it, even that was resisted by a phalanx almost equal to the number of his supporters. 241 Members out of 518, voted against all inquiry into Church leases, being firmly resolved, under the influences of their teachers, the clergy, to continue oppression, if they can to the end of time. The first motion for the Committee was carried, by a poor majority of 36. Mr. LIDDELL then made a motion, increase of object of whi c h was , t o k eep a ll t h e of Church revenue, should any be created, in the hands of the Clergy of the favoured sect, so that Church -rates shall never be abolished ; and this motion was only lost by 11. In fact, therefore, 265 Members, out of 519, are resolved that the Dissenters shall have no relief, and that every six pence which the State can collect, by force or guile, for the religious instruction of the people, shall for ever go to feed the Clergy of the favoured sect. The names of those Members who first voted for the inquiry, and afterwards for giving the surplus, if any, to the Est a bli s h e d Cl ergy, as far as we can ascertain, were Sir C. COOTS, Lord ELLIOT, Mr. GREEN, Mr. GRANVILLE HARCOURT, Mr. HEATH COTE, (Lincoln), Mr. INGHAM, Mr. DALLY KNIGHT, Sir CHARLES LEMON, Mr. POSEY, Mr. SLANEY, Sir H. VERNEY, and Mr. BARING WALL. Mr. LONG seems to to have been absent on the second division. The result of the debate. and the se n ti ments avowed by the several speakers, fill us with despair. Not that we have the least apprehension or the least doubt that justice will ultimately prevail; but we dread l es t t h e L egislature, by continually out- raging the moral feelings of large classes of the people, should bring about its own destruction amidst convulsions and bloodshed. The Earl of RIPON in moving, last night, for an account of the expences of the Commission to Malta, made what he intended to be a very severe attack upon her MAJES TY'S Ministers. We cannot congratulate the Noble Earl on his success ; a more feeble attempt to be forcible never was made, even bythe Earl of RIPON. The main delinquency charged upon the Government by their former associate was their utter disregard of economy, in throwing away 6,000/. on a Commission sent out to inquire into the com plaints of the Maltese, when such an inquiry could have been conducted at home, at a much less cost ; and this expenditure too, at a moment when a great deficiency in the revenue, slack trade, and di minishing exports, show that all ;s going to wreck and F i XTRAORDINARY INTERFERENCE of the CLERGY of Mailittene and St. Paneras, and the ' of London, against the Sunday Adittißsion to the Zoological !Stet..,. with a full Report of the di;.'Usslon at ety . yesterday ; with the 0rii,7. ;41 Gardens. A Copy of the MemoiLl: w ss_ion at the Anni versary : the Meeting of the Zoological t 0,..: ),ENERS' GA ZETTE of TO-MORROW, published with a Stamped giipple ment, price (id. Office, 343, Strand. VOUNTRY READERS of NEWSPAPERS will find THE COURT GAZETTE and FASHIONABLE GUIDE pnblished by authority, the most perfect Newspaper pub liyhotl Week it *ill hate a STAMPED SUPPLEMENT. Sold by MI tieivsmen. Otlices, 162, Piccadilly ; and 22, Cathe rine-street, Strand, Price Sixpence only. r HE CORONATION.---Exclusive particulars of the Proceedings of the Council with the claims, &c., will be found in the COURT JOURNAL, pizhlishod TOMORROW MORNING, and may be had of all 13ookselig,•:. and Newsmen. This established Gazette of the Fashionable World will a.;:4) contain authentic particulars of her Majesty's Levee and Drawing ItlOnly an accurate list of Company, the Presentations, and a full:De scription of the Ladies' Dresses, on an extra half sheet. Original Papers by celebrated writers, with the usual variety of Court and Fashionable Intelligence so peculiar to this Journal of the Haut Ton. W. THOMAS, PUBLISHER, 19, Catherine-street, Strand. ruin. What a pity that so much patriotic eloquence should have been wasted in combating a shadow conjured up by the prolific fancy of the Noble Lord ? A man looks has scommonly silly whe n h e fi n d s , a ft e r a speech which he concocted with a view to demolish his opponent, that has actually d emo li s h e d hi mse lf. Thi s was the fate of the Earl o f it i f,-, , ts; on the present occasion. There was no founda tion for his charge ; for it turned out, from th e reply of Lord GLENEL G , that d i e commission does not cost the d country one farthing, th e w h o l e pense falling up not to amo unting not ° revenues of Malta, a n d th a t ex p en s e 5,0001., as stated by L or d R IPON , b u t t o 1,09°/. ° Then, again, mar k th e f e li c it ous harrnea en the between the Noble E ar l an d t h e D u k e o f WELLll46l'os,the one of the subj ec t s o f i nqu i ry a bout whici ) 0 Commissioner s were occup i e d. " Al mos t the whole tun__ of these gentlem en ," sa y s th e N o bl e E ar l, " has been be pied about th e ques ti on w h e th er t h ere o ught to be free press in Malta or not, as if there could he 5 1 1 1 11 0 possibility of k ee pi ng th e p ress un d er restr i c tion." " exclaims the N o bl e D u k e , " M a l ta i s a fortre ss '" , ,;-22at do you want w ith a f ree press i n suc h a place ? eL c i m i g ht a : well think of es t a bli s hi ng a f ree press on boar the Admiral: ship on the station—it is an unheard-of Piec of absurdity ! Such are the conti:Cting views of these two n ‘-'O l ., sition Peers, on a very l 'nPortant question—so inipero, tant indeed, in our view, that: had the Commiss ion ? cc duced no other result th an th e e stablishment of a i r it press, we should have held the expense incurred, wer e , ut ten times as great, not worth a moment's cons:deration. 11,5 colony. Every department—the leg the truth is, that reform is nowhere more wanted than i n x t ,,j a l —the civil—swarms with abuses, which never could have been sufficiently brought to light but by a Coroul le t s ua l acting on the spot, and seeing with its own eyes the 'lc legislative—the itic,"4o working of the system, which has occasioned such loud eel" plaiti!s from the oppressed natives. ook A very numroug and highly respectable rneet' n ° f t place this day at the London Coffee House, .L'to gate-hill, Mr. Alderman COPELAND in the Chair , , take into consideration the propriety of further postP" 1 „ 1 1, the Coronation. The meeting fell that it would be f r : e , injury to the trade of the metropolis if .it took place in c ;" l- or t We regret that want of space compels us to omit the, R eport of the meeting, as well as numerous other comrnul lc3-1 of a pressing nature. MONEY AND COMMERCIAL 11,- CITY (THIS DAY), TWELVE O'CLO Ci k. o , The New York packet-ship of the Bth inst., the Independence I, a' by rived at Liverpool, sailed on the 9th ult. She has been anticipeleuers of the Havre packet, by which we received the New York 11.. '- t he the 9th ult., consequently cannot bring fresh intelligence 11. United States. i t So ° l New Brunswick papers have been received at the North and Ae voi. American Coffee-house to the 4th of April', but they are entirelY " of the least interest. the ‘' llit Accounts received this morning state, from yancorbo of Negri. of April, that Iriarte made a second attack on the fiction u nder '', i res near Saint Jean de Halmeira. The other division uni!er G eT ; e p ra tsil L thilen, marched for Miranda, to co-operate in the atta4 °' Merino still remains in the Seria de Lerma. ~h Od in ,:d t. We have received the Journal of Commerce of Antwerp of --- e 0 13.- (yesterday's date.) The accounts state that the crowd which as s e so, ,u at Brussels, manifesting their indignation on the conduct of th e r A ru osi' troops at Luxemburg, proceeded to the Hotel of the Prussia', 'OO, sador at Brussels, and hooted him. The conduct of the peopl e l ia . n s 6 1; 0 what alarmed the Belgian Government, and it is stated that the i. . ng the Ministers are endeavouring to soothe the Prussian agent, niak most abject apologies. ' i. Consols this morning continue steady at theini proveme nt of t'o'te;we and may be quoted at 931 f for the Account; and 92k for Morie 0 1: 0 75 business doing as yet. Exchequer Bills 69 71 prem. ; India to 80 prem. ; Bank Stock 205 to 206 ; India Stock 270 to '' ,. l l °• tool ° The general attention of the speculators is at present dire''' . the Ministers Budget. Act ire • • In the Foreign Market the prices are nominal as yet. Spanis h 4 4 , 20 k, with Coupons ; Portuguese 33 % % ; Three per Cen ts. ° i), 0' Brazilian 75 34; 6i ; Dutch 544 ; Mexican 27k 28 4 ; Colombian • • PRICES OF STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCI‘• 811 Rank Stock pia' 3 per Cent, Red, 92%% Ditto Bonds ...... ... .......... " 10 "-....--- 3 per Cent. Cons 93%% South Sea Stock ......... ... ..... ../ 3% per Cent........... lOO% Old Annnitics ... .......... .::: *----._...• Ditto lied. 100%% New Ditto ...-. .... ...• ..... ....... . -..., New 3% per Cent... ..... ... 101%% 3 4 3 per Cent. . °Annuities, , '',/,, o.' New 5 per Cent. Bank LongAnnuitiestoeznirc Ditto 500 ......... If:, 7..2 Ont. Jan 5, 1860... 15% 15 1-16 Ditto Small .................. o = l _ ..... p .. . Exch. Bills, -£1,000.. ....... ~.2 72 - ri!' Oct. 10, 1859 ...., to Jan. 5, 1860 1 5% Ditto Adver tised... ....... .. ..-••• Jan. 5, - 1880 — Bank bock for Account... ....... i April 5, 1880 — India Stod , for Acc0unt.......,..... 03 Jan. 5, 1870 —, Consols for A.' , conn t .A.. * " . o , cl, oClC ii PRICES OF FOREIGN FUNDS THIS DAY Al' ONE ••O • 2(3 ' .. Austrian Bonds ~ ...... ••• .... ... ' ... ..... ••• Belgian Bonds — Ditto Account ••••• .......... ..• 33 34 Ditto Account . Portuguese Bor b "' ........ " i , ,i Brazilian Bonds ~. Ditto Account Buenos Ayres Bonds — Ditto, 3 per cent.... .... V, Ditto Account 'hillian Bonds ...... ......... , — Pru,sian 80nd5.... . .......... ..,." 1115 Ditto Account — Ditto Account .. .............. --* Russian Bonds, 1822 ............. ..„„ Columbian Bonds ........... Ditto Account — Ditto Metallic.... ............... .... Columbian Bonds, 1824 — Spanish Bonds ..................••• ....„ Ditto Account . — Ditto Account .................. "74 Danish Bonds ...... Ditto Account Greek Bonds — French, 5 per cent.......... ---" -- --. c f. Ditto Bonds, 1825 — -- 4 per cent. .1. -'6. Ditto Account — 3 per cent. _i...... . e, Mexican Bonds, 5 per cent. , — Exchange Ditto Account Ditto, 6 per cent. Ditto Account — Ditto, 5 per cent 990 4 , Neapolitan — Ditto Account ... .......... .... PRICES OF SHARES THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCl i s hogi Paid. Per al Alten Mining Company 12% 12 0 British Iron Company 1 Dublin and Kilkenny Railway Company ....... Eastern Countie,lßailway •.. Edinburgh and Glasgow Great Western Railway Company 65 vN Brighton Railway Compans' 8 17 L ndon and Birmingham Railway Company 9 0 58 London and Southampton Railway Company 5(l pi 9 London and Croydon Railway Company 2O ~, nchester and Birmingham Railway 7 .., Thames Haven Railway Company 5 OS 1 Ditto Unregistered... 2% Its 164 Asphalte, Claridge's Patent 2 Oil Do British 1 43 % 4% Bastenne and Gaujac Bitumen FRENCH FUNDS. —Pants, MAY 2. Five per Cents., 107 f. 95c. 108 f. 107 f. 95c. Four per Cents., 101 f 50c. Three per Cents., 80f. 70c. 75c. 80c. Bank Actions, 2,685 f. 2,695 f. Bente de Naples ' 100 f 70c. Roman Five per Cents., 103% 103. Spanish Actives, 21% 21. Belgian Loan, 103. Belgian Bank, 1,445 f. 1,440 f. Portuguese Loan, Five per Cents., 32. Portuguese Loan, Three per Cents. 22;i. Haytian Loan, 495 f. EXCHANOR ON LONDON. One month, paper, 25f. 4"7 1 ,c.; money, 25f. 45c. , Three months, paper, —f. —c. ; money, 25f. 324 c. LATEST PRICES. Five per Cents. 108 f. sc. Three per Cents., 80f. 75c. Bank Actions, 2,635 f. Romans, 103. Belgian Loan, 103%. Belgian Bank, 1,410 f. Portuguese Three per Cents., 22,6. Haytian Loan, 485 f. Spanish Actives, 21. ,„ oflF• 1 , HALF-PAS -,„ pire," ; Files of American Papers have been received at the No r "' in tell can CotTee.liouse, from all parts of the United States. T he rr ival gence they contain has been anticipated by the previotlS 3 American Papers of the same date. P W". From Upper Canada we h ave th e f o ll ow i ng :—" N o t being aced' sion of more than the fact of Sir George Arthur's arrival a n ; sir f*, sion to the government of , thi s prov i nce, an d t h e d epar ture °' p oen' Head, we are unwilling to detail as yet the circumstances anti„ ot,r infor ral o ';inc e upon the change. We have great pleasure, however, readers: that Sir George has assumed the government of th e P q r ov; t he with the character of possessing talent, and determination to 0 ' policy of his predecessor." do ing Both the British and Foreign mar k e t s h ave b een very inactiv e at the whole of the morni ng , an d C onso l s h ave cont i nue d at „5130 n" present 93 N ; money, 93k. Ex c h equer Bill s, 69 72. In"' 78 80 pm. Bank Stork, 205 k. India Stock, 291. Of . In the Foreign market Spanish Active, with Coupons, beavY' rat i ' cr Portuguese steady, at 33i. Three per Cents., 221. Brazili an lower, 76. Danish, 74i. Dutch Two-and-a-Half, 54k. pastel' Little doing in the Share market. Claridge's, 1 , 1) , - pr • 2i prem. THREE 0' CI BOX ' Consols for Account, 93g. THE MARKETS.-(THIS DA CORN EXCHANGE. ti There are very small arr i va l s o f E ng li s h G ra i n an d Flour -3lrs iCe" ° t• but a good quantity of Irish Oats. Wheat remains firm at tilehE „ u yer' -Ot Monday. Barley, Beans, and P ease arc w i t h out var i at i on . The ; les Oats hesitate, but as the f ac t ors w ill not t a k e less money, t he fc";:joieg have been made support Monday's terms. There is not In" — Flour, as the weather continues warm. ARRIVALS. Wheat. Barley. ........ qrs 2,651 qrs. Irish - - Foreign Flour; c % o, Oata. I 3, 70 0 16,1 qrs LIVERPOOL COTTON MARKET, MAY 5 ' „litrli tea ,; The transactions effected in co tt on at t hi s day ' s mar k e t Vier', g there having been barely 3,503 b ags sold, and the rates of mild vi in have declined, /d. p er lb . on our last quotations. 2,950 bid' to 54d. to 7d.; 100 Bahia, Bd.; 50 Surat, did.; 300 Perna., Sad.; 100 Egyptian, 8 y 2 d. to 121d.—Total, 3,500. e s '' Her Majesty will give a grand State ball at t r b e tou ssl Palace on the 10th instat b n. Mr. Weippert's band and IN— German band are both engaged for this occasion. PLATED CORNER DlS—pi s w with Strong Silver Ed es and Handles.—A Set of Fou r as Corner Dishes and Covers are offered, complete, for Eight , T,'l n in G l ti• or a set w ith r i c hl y ornamented Edges, Handles, &c., for Eight neas. The Handles take off the Covers ; the set thus fo n 'o o lds' Dishes when required. I'. COX SAVORYS, Wor kin g W e° mith, Silversmith, and Watchmaker, 47, Cornhill, London , Doors from Graceehurch-street. ) i yom, N. B. A va r i e ty o f Second-hand Watches may be sel ected price Two Guineas each. Warranted. TEAS at WHOLESALE ------•----- _ PRICES, in Quantities no t lest than One Pound. Black, 35., 3s. 6d., 3s. 10d., 4s. Small Leaf Gunpowder , .4 : 8d 78g . - ei 4s. 6d , .ss. Cocoa Dd. per lb., or per cw D r er Young Hy son , 4 s . 4d., 4 s . Bd. Ch oco l a t e 10d. per lb., or _p Imperial Gunpovvder, ss. 4d. cwt. 88s. ii l/ 41 k- T. G. MANSELL' and CO., Wholesalo Tea-dealers , 2, lersbury, Cheapside London : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG , o f 112, Strand, at The gun O ffi ce, No. 112, Strand, in the r o tin of Middlesex.—Friday, May 4, 1838. -' 3) IA • -1 7 ; .3 ,--. Zhe an n. WITH WHICH " THE TRUE SUN" IS NOW INCORPORATED.