The Sun. — London, England, 1810-01-27 00:00:00

terwards appeared mere formidable than crer, be ing 50,000 strong. He believed the Noble Lord gained his information-on that suject from the Mo niteur, a paper which he seetnedeo have peresed with - great attention. He had however, to state, that the army which , had appeared at Placentia was not that that had been 'defeated by Lord Wellington.— Souls' s force, it was well known, •had consisted of two divisions,; Soolt was a senior commander, and was nominally the-head of that force commanded by Ney and Mortier. Some of the facts stated by the. Noble Lord were at variance with those advanc ed by the Honourable Gentleman who had given him his support. .He did not ask the House to give credence either to the • one or to the other, as he thought both equally unworthy their belief. Nor was he more anxious that they should give credit ro him. He only wished them to wait till they had an opportunity of inspeCting the documents which were to be laid before them. Had the Noble Lord Con fiped-hirnelf to Walcheren ' as he at first intended, be might .have saved himself the trouble of making so long a , speech, and. a shorter answer, would then have , been necessary. • He bad coniPlained of many circumstances cormeCted with the Expedition, of the 'delay before it sailed, and the time which elapsed before the evacuation of Walcheren, &c. Might not, those circumstances be satisfa&orily ex plained by the Papers which were to•be produced? After thanking.' his Majesty for the inforMation be, had been pleased ro promise them, would it• be consistent with - their dignity, or' respeaful to their Sovereign, 'to pledge eitemselves to insti tute an inquiry before those were received ? He did - not say the promised docuMents ought not to be inspeCted, but it might be that the criminality at ' tacked to those concerned in the late expedition, would fall on persons who could not with propriety be. examined at their bar, If, for instance, the feult should appear to. rest on the General Officers, would the Member s -of that House. form themselvei into a Court-Martial, or would they'send those Of - ficers to answer for their conduct before a proper tribunal. ?, Why should the . House pledge itself to go into sech an inquiry , ?. It vas inconvenient, , and not only was it inconvenient, but it was abso ' lutely .contrary to public justice. He never -knew such an inquiry prove satisfactory—(Hear, hear, hear !). By Gentlemen's cheering, he supposed he sets to understand that they admitted that to be a MCI. If. so, it •was add that they should be so anxious *for'; an inquiry, which they appeared, so {ouch to de. precate. The Noble Lord had ,in no small degree weakened his own arguments- (if he did not compli ment him too much in, calling what had fallen from. him arguments), as after speaking for an hour,and a • half, atter exhausting every term of reproach that it Was in . his power to bestow, he . had -at last - said 'he could not form a proper - judgMept on the subject without seeing the promised documents! This was evidently done with a veew of reserving tobiinself a voice oir.another occasion. This he might find -very - convenient: He had said with a gentle air, - a tnild voce, and a subdued accent, that he would not erejentge the case ; but with 'his loud voce L he had told them with approrrate.` ges•iculationi that the facts , he had stated • to them spoke. fOr . themselves, -arid cirried - condemnation on the face -them. Having thus far addressed himself to the Noble Laid, he would now take some notice of the Hon. Gent. by whom he had been seconded. A speech snore against that which it was' intended to support he h a dneverheard. He had complained of a watil of twat{ to prevent supplies being conveyed from . Cedsand to Flushing. He asserted that no such inconvenience had been experienced. He felt no he sitation in eantradiaing him. He had means of knowing more on ghat subject than the• Hon. Gen tleman, and when asset tion went against assertion, ip what manner would the House think it necessary to plede,e itself to institute such an inquiry as had • le:cn called for? Would it be respeaful to the King, after the vote recently giteh, to give that foe Which they 4.vere now called onbetore the papers were now 'pro.lticed ? Before they knew whether Ministers or Generals wire likely to be the subject of that inquiry ? It was not candid to take • the opinion of the Horse twice on the same subject, and the present question differed only in words from that Which they had so lately discussed. He wistied the House distinctly - to understand thathe did not op pose inquiry, but that he only wished it deferred till they were in posses,ion of those papers, which alone cauld enable them. to decide where or not it would be necessary. He concluded by aiming .the previ- pus question. • Mr. Biniu sT said the-list Speaker had not an su ered tie Noble 'Lord, to wherrnhe thought the ceuntay so much indebted. .It was , the • undoubted night of that House to investigate.artysubjea, a right which they might exercise without nay disrepect to his Majesty. He had been' misunderstood on a &r -ler night. •The reason he Toted as he •did was; that it, app:?ar , d to him the •amendment expressed an opinion 'a4:L•ady formed on that ,subject „they proposed to inquire into. It was admitted that a prima facie inquiry was necessary ; but because the :Noble Lord gave the grounds on which he wished for such - an inquiry, he-was accused of pre-judi— ing the ease. As it was admitted an inquiry fitvas Pecesnry, the • Noble Lbrd • ought to •be praised for the candour .he had 'displayed, as ; be had left the time and the mo;le of making the inquiry to his Malady's inisters.- 7 -All he imant to say was f‘ Whatever, papers you may may have to lay before Us, we will consider them in the C o mmittee.!'-- He doubt"d whether the papers wctild give him sa tisfaction. - Many .things inight,.arde from viva voce examinalion,. which otherW4 would not be known: • After sorne.adiinonal.oServationS on the 'bearings of the :various ar A urnOts made: ease of in the discussion, he declar the calcßilatitiris on which .•the • Expeditions werei u ,Oderta'ken to 134 beyond his :comprehension..' He gave itsas his opittiOn that the, House shotild, pledge itself to go iuto 3' Committee on the Subject. When that Cope= witted was formed, lithe papers should be fbund sa- - tiSfactPry the subject need. • then be pursued no farther. He concluded yindicating: the coati try • from the charge of unjustly assailing the conduct o!lGene. • .11 Officers. • • Mr.-fuLLER complained of :thejortg speeches made by GenVemen; which in - evgntocl. others. from fbliveriug couciseopinions; agil i a t ‘par briefly speik • tpg favour of the propped Iz gtiirj, aeCommended - - 4194100A.1•: Printed by RAI SUN,OFF. , the-abolition of all sinecure places, and the general correction of real abuses. The CIIANCELLOR. of the EICHEQ,UER said, that he • was ready to admit that the conduel of the Right Hots. Gentleman on the opposite side of the House (Mr. Bathurst) was fair and consistent, though he by no means - agreed with him in the view which he took on the question then before the House. He was extremely anxious that before Gentlemen came to a decision upon the subject, they would fully Un derstand the nature of the queition before fhe House,. and the motives which had induced his Hon. Friend to move the previous question. If it were supposed that by proposing the previous ques tion, Ministers were desirous either to evade or to prevent all inquiry, he. was desirous as early as pos sible to Correct that error. He could assure the House, that his Majesty's Ministers had no such in tention. The point upon which the House was now called upon to determine was not whether there should be an inquiry relative to the Expedition to Welchem, but whether it was most proper to come to a decision upon the question then, or when the documents, which had been promised in "his Ma jesty's Speech, were laid : upon the table. The House, therefore, would be completely misled if it supposed:that it was now, celled upon to vote'whe ther or not there should be any .inquiry. The Noble-Lord had moved for a,Committee of the whole House to, inquire' respeeting this Expedition, and all that his Hon. Friend (Mr. CrOker). had con tended for was, that the House should wait until they had the necessary information - before them, when they certainly would be much better able to decide whether the inquiry should be in a Commit tee of the whole House, in a Selett Committee, or at the Bar of :the House ; or whether any - further inquiry was necessary. If the Noble Lord had done him the honotir , to have proposed one , or two questions 'to him, • before he brought forward this motion, he was strongly inclined to think that his 'answer would have induced the Noble Lord at least to have postponed •his motion. The question to which he alluded was relative. to the time when the promised documents Would be laid before the _House.: To that quegtion he'should have answer ed, that he should be extremely sorry, as well as disappointed, if he were not able to lay them upon Ithe table of the House by. Monday next. He was also deSirons to add, that i order as much' as possi ble to accelerate the information, while the Clerks were employed in copying some of the dacuments, others - had agnally been sent to the Printers, and he had every reason to 'hope that'by Tuesday,every Member would be in possession of a printed copy of them. Having stated this, he would now leave it to the House to determine whether they would de cide now, without any information at all, or wait till Monday or Tuesday, when they would be in full possession of all the' documents promised in his Ma jesty's Speech, and which he trusted would prove sa tisfaaory. Ithadbeen said that the Country called for information upon this suhje&, and that it was necessary that the House should pledgeitself to an inquiry, by adopting this motion. 'He had always supposed that; inquiries were instituted for the pur pose • of obtaining informatiOn, but 'in this instance it- was obvious that, if after What he had statedeGen tlemen persisted in this motion, their object ,was merely - to obtain a vote, and not to procure infor mation. Legged leave to ask, what possible ad vantage, aS . far as related' to the real object of in quiry, could be gained by pressing 'the' House to come -to a 'decision upon the Noble I.or.l's mot;on. Did Gentlemen really mean to contend that the country would suffer any injury by a delay of 24 hours, and that the case was so .urgent that it was - better now to decide without inforthation, than to wait till Monday for.it ? This proposition was really too absurd to.be seriously contended for"; but he would State' the true object of . this Motion : Gentlemen had talked Of tactics, but they had prov ed themselves very bad tacticians on the first night of the debate. They found that they bile' worded their amendment with' very little skill, and this mo tion was brought forward to repair the blunder which was then committed. In the confidence of succeas, and in the full pride of their strength, they came down on the first day of the Session, and proposed an amendment, such as, we would undertake to prove, had never been proposed before ineltat House. The result of that night's debate, however,: shewed bow itl-grounded their confidence was. The House did not, becauge it could not, with any regard to justice or its own dignity, have adopted such an an amendment. It was an amendment not only in direct opposition to justice, but common sense. It proposed to decide first, and try.afterwards. ' It told the House that Inquiry was necessary, and then called upon' in to decide bef ire that inquiry took place., It was indeed Castigaque auditque,. It was' to b gin with punishment, and end with trial. Some, indeed,-of the Gentlemen aeied more can didly ; they said they wanted no information at all ; they were ready to condemn without any inquiry whatever. In f ;et, every part of their conduct de monstrated what were their rtal intentions. They did hot want an inquiry into the meriis'of the Ex= ; they wanted a vote against Ministers_They did not want' investigation, they wanted re moval. This was the real motive which influenced their conduct, and it wa, their eagerness to attain that object thatiedthem into. the blunder to which he had already alluded. They were so cetifident in their, own strength, that they thought they 'nigh( despise all. forms, and overl-ok all decency. l'he decision of the House, however, convinced them how grossly they had te:ecalculated. Never was dieippeit}tment greater or more complete than theirs., Hf badnow pulled off the mask from the Gentle men .on the other side, and stated their real motives in bringing" fon4 ar,d this motion. He begged to im press- upon the minds of Gentlemen, that there was no intention to prevent inquiry; but he could not pi.esibly conceive any possible advantage that could result from voting fur a Committee of In quiry, now, when in t he course of 24 hours they would be in possession .of all the docterieets, and consequently better able to decide upon v.ihat course they ought .to pursue. There might be some points contained in the 'documents that they might wish communicated to the, whole 'House, or 'there might be some which they would wish confined Select Committee. Would it" be SA ell to dedd"Which mode of inquiry they' should ;HARD HARRIS, of Nc!. .Maitletf.court, Bow-sheet; anl ccy Ng. 2, 3 Stitand3 wbere:W,vrtiscments ) 4 Ordeik . . • i-adopt before they could tell which ought tehave the 1 preference ? They spoke of going into a Committee as it they had a tribunal to erect in Westminster-, Hall, Which it would lake some time to prepare. for them. He thought it nerdless to givel lie pledge, and should therefore support the previous qee.stion, which would leave them at libert4 to aia as circum stances should render it most -expedient. His Right Hon. Friend, in speaking of the disrespe& shewn to the King, had said-nothing that merited reproof, It was hardly decent not to wait twen ty-four hours for the prdmised information.— To decide, knowing nothing about it ; to. say we know better than you, though we know nothing at-all about the matter ; information you have promised cannot be satisfactory. . Whatever the facts might be, no public inconvenience could re sult from so trifling a delay ; and whatever Gentl e -. men on that side of .the House might say, be felt assured that- the people would not think the worse of that House for acting with becoming deliberation: They would appear to be -less directed by party if they agreed to - wait for satisfactory information, when it would be afforded to them in so short a time. But to gain information was not their object, a vote against Ministers was all they wanted. — They wanted them to be removed. It might. be very fair for them to pursue that objed, but he thought it - was equally fair for him to unmask their intentions, and shew that they contended not for satisfactory information, but _for power. If they had the object in view for which they affeeled to feel so much solicitude, they must know that the line of cenduct they pursued would not lead to its attain ment or facilitate the production of the ~informat ion they had a right to require. Mr. WINDHAM was disposed, notwithstanding the pleasantry of the Right Hon. Gentleinan, to retain, io common with his friends,, that confidence which they bad entertained in their strength on the first night of the Session. If ever there .was a case which celled for the unanimous vote of Parliarnent, the.late disastrous campaign was that case. It waS not. necessary to wait for papers, in ordcr to deter mine what inquiry is necessary, The intormat:on on which to ground opinion was greedyibefere p pf l liament and the country. To be sure, the papers might have furnished an aggravated proof of guilt in some quarter or. other, and might shew the the Right Hon.. Gentleman was not chargeablewith the whole blame of the failure. Was it possible not to look at the fate which attended , the Walche rem Expedition, the loss of so many of our brave men, and not be satisfied of the necessity of calling to account some one ? To allow. the delay asked for, would be a reproach to the House, fey thefeel irigs of the country called loudly for 'jestice.. - every principle of , duty to the ,country,, hi could not consent to wait one day, but must vote for inquiry immediately.. Mr. PONSONBY insisted that the Right HonoUrablt Gentleman (Mr. PerCeval) had totally mistaken the question. It was. not whether they should decide between Friday or - Monday for Inquiry ; but whe ther the Comnions House of Parliament. should do their duty to the, People of England, or negled it, in order to p.iy a compliment to the Minister of the day. The Right. Hou. Gentleman, however., desired delay. For what ? Why, truly, that he might furnish papers necessary - for his own defence; for it could not be said that the Hunse , .wanted information as to blame resting somewhere. Why did the Right Honour able Gentleman put into the mouth of the Sovereign the answer which had been given to the Address of the City of London, to wait until Parliament assem bled, who would no doubt, institute 'an inquiry into failures which had disappointed the hopes and expectatiobs of the country ? Now when inquiry is called for by the House, the Right Honourable Gen tleman is not ready with his information. It was the first time he had ever, heard that the Commons of the United Kingdom must. wait the pleasure of Ministers. They had shewn to each other the greatest proofs of insincerity, and for office the ut most incapacity. What had been 'the conduct of one of the Members ? Why, he .had retained his office till after the largest expedition which England's shores ever • saw quit them had sailed, and for what reason ? Why, forsooth, as it was alleged in public documents, because it could . not be reconcil ed to his feelings to remove him .until then.— The held of that Administration, so misconduct ing themselves, now demands confidence from the House of Commons, and desires that they will ab. 'stain from doing their 'duty until he furnishes infor mation. He much feared, that if the House shoul4 take the advice of the Right Boa. Gentleman, : there would be found in the country men, whose. minds were so malignant, that they would. say it was the gm test calamity and the foulest disgrace which could fall on the People of England, to be represented by such a House of Comnions. ME. STEPHEN was of opinion the Right Ho nourable. Gentleman - (Mr. Ponsur,by) . was mistaken in his supposition, that the question was whe ther the Inquiry should be on Friday or Mon day. The delay asked by his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Perceval) was not for ihe purpose,of shrinking from inquiry; but to , produce intorrna wriich, he had no doubt, would pro'.e high ! v satisfactory, both to the House and the Country. The Right Hon. Gentleman and his friends `wished, as it appeared to_ him, to obtain confidence by the popularity of inquiry. Was it regular to decide with out official documents ? With respect.to the failures, did the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) rot get the expeditions' to Quiberon, to, Buenos .Ayres, and the failures which had attended thereon,itberast of which was not distinguished by calamities ohly;. but was now severely felt in our commercial lations. The Honourable Gentleman, admitted that there was prima facie evidence of ,raiscoadt4t somewhere, and 'so there had been in our; V4st-= India expeditions conducted under some of the Right Honourable Gentleman's friends, and yet it had then been found expedient, although half of the armies were wasted by disease, to renew the enterprizes. In .the .present case it was neces sary for the House to proceed with-all dot solemnity and dignity. Sir SA.MUEL ROMILLY thought the question of inquiry was alone to be decided' by the House, and if this night;" or Monday, was to be the dav for de ciding the question, he should say this .day. Was it riot • sufficient to kilo*, that some gr- I Published by WILLIAM ARMlGERSo; , ltlNfikltoruatr . exts GrosvenoTaiguar t !or't'ne Paper, Letieri for he kaior, tic. (post-pa;o) obi be additssedj • mity had befallen \the expedition to authorize iry quiry ywithout waiting for further information ?' The country looke I to Parliament to acquit thew' „selves in their eyes. Was it not enough that 50 many of our brave men should .be sent to an inglo' rims death, to call for inquiry ? When so many ca lainities seemed to threaten the State, was it to bl endured that this House should speak a differen t language from the country ? Mr. LESTER FOSTER conceived, that though there was strumg presumption of guilt in some itult e ter, it would be too much to vote for inquiry` with' out the information which the papers might give. General GROSVENOR could not reconcile it to Ili!, feelings to give a silent v o t e . Th e H on . G en et"' declared, that he owed it to the character of the army, of which he was a member—that be owed i t to each individual soldier, and above all the Cow' mender in Chief, the Earl of Chatham—that an ht' quiry in the broadest manner should be gone WY: The country was waiting too with the utmost-int' patience; and, it was due - to them that is should be inaediately gone into. Sir HOME POPHAM supported the motion. was followed,by Mr. Eyite, who though disposed for immediate inquiry, reli e d on the exc u lpat i on o f Ministers. Mr. H. SMITH was for the previous question. Mr. D. BHOW'N considered the motion as chissil intended for the removal of Ministers. Mr. ifeßvEr was for the previous question. A Mr. WILBERFORCE regretted that Mr. PeTCCVP had shewn any opposition to the motion which bf conceived necessary, and resolved to support. Mr. Boyle said, that the House - would expose it' self to contcmpt and ridicule if it entered into irl' quirt' before it had the cecessary-documents. Sir W. CURTIS was for the motion. Mr. H9ME SUMNER was inclined to move ter art adjournment. Mr. H. MAR T IN was for the motion. . Mr. SMITH was on the same side. Mr. TIERNEY was for the motion, so were Lora NEWARK and Mr. LOCKHART. Mr. CANNING ably contended for the necessity of inqUiry, but not without ample documents. Mr. PATERSON moved• an adjournment, and was seconded by Mr. H. SUMNER. Mr. PoNsonay con• sidered this, as, such an expedient as the previous question. - Mr. PaRcEVAL said, that on the - contrary, so fat was he from originating this motion, that he would not support it: The Gallery was -then cleared for the division, when Mr. Paterson's Amenament was negative 4 without a division. The previous question was then pat, when there appeared on the division-- Ayes - - - 186 Noes - • I9s Majority against the previous question ----9 We' understand that:, the House afterwards cams to deterynknatio4, that they would, on Friday next, form themselves into a Committee, for thopurpose Of making the Inquiry. Adjourned at Hatf-past One o'Clock. EYTONI, Partner with the late Sir J. BRANSCOMOf Removed - to z, Cornhill; near the Mansion-House, R ETURNS his Q4-ateful Th an k s f or a ll Favours received during-the Eight years he was the only - Part+ ner and person conneeAeil in the Lottery Business with the , late Sirlaines Branscoinb,• and respedfully solicits the awn' mands of his friend's and the public, at his present Move No:'2, CORN HIL L, now established solely on his own ac. count, and where the smallest order wit,' meet that and attention for which his former reside particularly noticed. ' • -i The Lottery will be drawn all in ONE DAY, FE pRUARy t 4, tttio. The Scheme and Plan of Drawing are in thimselves sa good, acid were so universally approved in the last Lottery, that very few words arc required to invite purchasers. ." ryton therefore has only to add, that as Tickers and Shares Will most certainly rise, an early application should be ma& at his lucky Office, No. 2. CO RN H I L L, near the Mansion-House. 0:13 T..he Public are respeattilly informed, that no Busi• fleas can be transaded before Light o'clock in the Morning ot atter Eight o'clock in the Evening, according to the Ad of Parliament. ALL IN TWELVE HOURS. SWIFT- and Co. remind their Friends and th• Public, that the whole of the _present Grand STATE LOTTERY will be Drawn on ST: VA LENTI,NE's DAY, the t4th of Next Month, when in the short spate of Twelve Hours the immense Sum of Two Hundred Thousand Pounds will be distributed in Prizes of various descriptions, induct ing Forty Capitals, among which are Four of 2e,c001. each. TICKETS and SHARES are on Sale in great variety at their Offices, No. t 1, Poultry, No. 12, Charing-Cooss, and No. 31, Ahlgate High-street, where Five of the Capital Prizes in the last Lottery were -sold in the last Lottery were sold in Shares. MAILS. AanivED-.-.1 Dublin, vui—z Dublin, 3 Waterford. I'ILIC,E OF STOCKS THIS DAY AT TWLLVIL O'CLOCK. Copsols - - ail . A 'debate took place yesterchy in the House Lords, upon the motion of Thanks to lAN Wei-.' LINGTON, which was carried without a division. In the HouSe .of Commons there was a debate of considerable length, on the motion pf Lord Pox. •AP CHESTER, for a Corntnittee to inquire into thooptik duct and policy of the late expedition to the Scheldt,. which was agreed to after the previous queotion 44' been negatived by a majority of nine. • • Our Plymouth' Letter, dated. on Thursday,..says,, " This morning about six o'clock, the Tissert ma. nufactory_at this place, belonging to Mr. kolibls,, - caught fire, and was entirsly consumed, in cons e-: qunece of an iron pot containing the ingredients frill making the Tessera having boiled over; fortunately, n lives were lost." • NUMB ' A' TO OMI il 7,:ovENT 'lldof Par the New tormancc Lach. 'The rem ' lll,l compit fifty Pert"( , 4, orn-Otticc Doors to „Loxes 7s J talf-price Cor heAtre on °us and in- tinder the C ranted THEI PAD Tti peyrc k rm ( t 4 , ll ssion of (60inic t Crer,tine ~ ~_ * T he no Pe 130x;54 Caller y 2 Price tiki. Loxes () trice, V tivate 1 The D fur rriatice 0 n W; ttie tL Dup, j ~ire•sitte Perforni t ? ''Untied 4ietles SWI T 4-1 Put 01 - r E the - o ) ituurs tl Will be c Fort tL rlcK sir Of 4.1• 31, tes 11 •• /4) 1(1 ti F. E i _TICK! .4 st, t , c ; kiffice end robe Lem ,Prde T. f irn rif e re S ; ' 4th Liml i old es • 121 e sti i k'!ostutes II E - SUN. •::, QiJIS DICERE FALSUM AUDE tT ? :• . 4 , L 0 ND 0 IV, SATURDAY, JANUARY 27, -1810. IN 6,63 Th me I , I, Ale 'Grou t " b h eß is est e a d al tiob e, ULy b tainc;(l Who