The Sun. — London, England, 1810-05-10 00:00:00

LJIPERIAL PARLLIMENI: HOUSE OF - PEERS, VTEpNESDAY, MAY 9. The House, in.a Coniliittee of Privileges, agalti hend Counsel on the dldim.. to the ROx.buigh Peer after which the Loup CHANCELLOR gay& notice, thar lie should to-moirow submit a.'propositiOn to the Hoti,e respeding the further proceeding, and the - tline for heAring the Lord Advocate of Scotland oti -die part ot the Crown. •Several ifiostlyßill,. Private; were brought up fr - ail. the Commons; among tli4n wart the Bill for liquidating the Debts of the Nabob of Arcot, - • Wien this BiL was read a first time; a Lord LAUDE4DAL4 .rose an;.rgave notice, that previous, to the second teading of the Bill he should rrinve for some Papers. which he expected would contain information. that would chew some parts of this transaction to he. of. a nature as atrocious as any that:hag/ever occurred in' .this ok any other country. • The Bt:otch- Judges' Salary Augmentation Bill went..thrOugh a -Committee, when a short conver sation took frhce respecting the fund from_ Which the hicrJa - se.was taken. Lords , Lauderdale, Holland, and, Roslyn wished - - a - return to be made of the fund ? to slew whether it w3s sufficient enough- for the purpnse, and that fin tai portnitity .might be afforded of knowing whether thr.-:71 - 1poed increase was to tall on the Public. • Loi•d-Mr.t.vlLt..E said the fund twin which the in , .7ro:,se was to be taken; Was the same which Ni-ted -at the time of the Union. It was intended to deirav the salaries of the Judges, and any augtnent)- - rio n tbdt might be made-to them. Should the-fund Prove in!ttlicient, the .deficit would no doubt oe invade good ay the Public, for if the fund from which fhe sidaiie4 Were now' taken .._ere not destined for th 4 object, it would be made-available tu the Public Service, I • • Further Accounts were. presented from the Trans? port Board of 6ctiips employed as transports.-;—Order-' ed to be printed.—Adjo:nued. to the Bar, to ascertain fioM his• mouth whether, he was actually the person whd bad isSued, it, aid to proceed aceordiugly." • Mr. WINIMAM -said, that he perfealy agreed with • the objections his Hon. Friend -had advanced, for nor attending the Committee. As his reasons Were . likewise - the. same, he did not wish to occupy the attention of the House by, repeating, them. His - object ions, .Lowever, would 'have been, partly got oih.r; if the power of the Committee was to Ix-. °la limited nature; btit when that :power . wag so gene rally granted, be thought the House should keep such only in its own hands. . AS he did not choose to.give-any advice or instruction to the Committee, he had of course a natural objection to any interfe rence. on every tither point he perfectly coincided with -his fion., Friend ; he deemed the course he wi.hed to be adopted the only old beaten track; of the House; it was first enacted 40 years ago. Since that, thingl of the . present nature hart been so rare that the knowledge o( the track: has 'been alrhost lost, and indeed what has happened could net have been expected. Adverse as he WaS to the Right Hon. Gentlepen oppoSite, no. consideration.should divert hiM 'from thieking, that the 'best course should be.a rigorous vindication of the .ptivileges of the House. ' • Sirj. ANETRU . TIiga declared that he for One en tertaioed no doubt whatever of the privileges of the House, and of the propriety of pursning the .conrie adopted by their ancestors for tie it preservation.— There was no course but one for maintaininoliow. privileges, and no place but one in which they ought to be maintained ; for it was impossible to think of referring the privileges of the House Of Commons to the Court's of Law order tet decide their vali lidity ,and extent. Cohceiving therefore that the appointtr.ent of a Committee tOgite an opinion on the suhjeet , could do no good, and which might possi bly do harm, he had declined attending upon it. The.ATTOIINEY-GE'NERAL subscribed entirely to the ooarine, that the privileges - , of the House of Commons were not to - be judged by any but them- . selves. Alt bough •collateral questions had frequent ly been brought -before wher'COurts on the power and ptiviteges of that House, those Courts bad.ik ways declared, that such subjects were ntn their consideration, but that the House Must..themselves decide upon them. It was extretnelyAlestratyle r that. on .ilos subject the, Hon. G litletneti opposite should cons ur w:th thoseott his side of the Honw, or it it wohld please the HOU. • OppGSit , better; that those on his side of the House should concur' w hit them. He assured theta, that it was wit t h the slightest-doubt of the . privileges of- the House that be.gave his vote for the a: poinirnent of a Com.' , mittee---not to discuss the prik - ileges, but to. con bider the course best adapted toreoforcing theM. Tire CHANCE'LLOE:OI the .P.,ICirIEQUE.It expressed considerable regret 'at the course . which the Hon.. and. Lttarned C'entlemen-opposite had taken. He 'gave them full credit fvr their nultivo , , and he ac quitted 'them of any design to embarrass the Com mittee or to weaken the eifeet of their report ; but he could :not hero declaring,. that 'in his opinion, every argument that had beets used by those. Hon. and :Learned Gehtleroen to account for their poo 7 attend-. ante on the Committee, alight have been more pro r perly used to induce them ,to attend it. - It they had that clear view of the subject which they piotess to hat , ,, they c'eft(tiOy ought - to havu atteude . d the Committee; in order, communicate their eOnvic-' tion, . He had proposed the appOintme,ut of 'a Com iritttce, 'because he felt that 'the subjectcould be more property,discussed than in . the- Honsee and treathe he thought that a report on a Committee, stating the usual course which the House adopted on such occasions, would be most satisfadory to all • parties. Had the Hon, and Leal-m. l d Gentlemen: differed from the Committee, _their subsequent -ob servations in the House would net have been. Weak ened by the declaration of that difference. At a time . 'When all there anxious that the befit'-"course should be pursued, fully--and etfedoally to - maintain the privileges of the House, he could not help re yeating'inii regret that the Hon. - aod Learned' Gen tiemen opposite did not afford to the cormnieee that assistance which he tor' one -oxpet.:ted would have been derived from them. '-Sir A. PIGoT rose for . the purpose of reminding the House, that this was probably the first occasion on -which a summons had been serired Or an officer of the House of Commons,: for executing the orders f. of the House, with the name of. the' Attorney in dorsed on it,' on WthiCh the Attorney had not beeh ordered to attend the Hoare to answer fOr his conduet. He - did not mean to treake soch,a motion, but merely 'to remind the house, that if • ii -were not dune, it ;would be omitted for the first . time. After a few-Observations -from Mr. LEYCESTER and.Mr,'W. WYNNE, - the 'motion was agreed to without a division. ' On rife motion of the - CRANCELLoR of--the Ex- CHEQUER, the Lord Allvocate of . Scotland, 'Mr. Rose and Mr. Stephen were added to the CoMmit : tee; on the procceedings 'bade and to be had, with teseeel to Sir Feßurdett, , • T . _ TARE 1.113K4 OF 1312.0•NSI,Y1C1c. ' A Member gate notiee that on Yi,nnay he wonN move an humble Ad-lresS to his :`,lajcSty, pr . ayipg that he'would be graciOusly . pleased t; porchase Ot. of the Droits of the Adotiralty an annuity for has Serene_Highness the Duke ofeßrUnswick. - 1 TtlE . . i On the 'notion Of Mt. .Aiderraln ComBE, the flous,, , tesutned the Adjourned Debate on the Peti .. Gun from the the Livery . of London. • . The SPEAK ER having: - .,ta;ed' that the question was, 1i.." that this Petitieri do tie on the table,7 - . - ' HOUSE OF CO.II,IIONS, WEIO'.. , TESIjAY, MAY 9. • SERIEANI AT ARMS. - On the motion. of the C:rAtccneeoi E the x . cilEatna, - the Serjearrt'at Arms was .called to the Bar, :aria questioned by the Speaker, with resped to the lyn - ticuhas of the process thk had been served upon hint s • • . The Serjeant at Artn6 stated that had received The process (which lie then delivered in) from the same person who had delivere,-d to 'him a notice le quiring a copy of the warrarmunder the authority of which be had arrested Sir F. nuidett. The process was then re.!(l by the Clerk. CALCAAFT wiSlied to know what answer the Serjeant had made toethe reqniiricri for a' copy 'of the '. arrant. . • ' • . The Serjcatit replied, that be had referred to the Solicitor, in 'Whose hands' the wat rant wets: The SPEAKER observed, that the Serjeant had - done .se, by his advice. - • . The CHANCELLOR of the ExcuEQuatt then mov ed to refer, :the matter stated by the Serjeant .at Arms, and the Paper delivered in by hiM, to the Committee, appointed to consider ,ot the pro ceedings- had, and to be bad; with resped to Sir Francis Burnett. - Sir T. TUtufois contended that if any. thing on the face of the Paper in question . affeited the Privi leges of the House; the 'best mode of vindicatingg their dignity would bteto find the -person by whorh the process had' been served; and to take the proper steps for punishing him. Lord FOLKSTON': was. also. of opinion that the case ought to be left to the ordinary process of the law, a course which would be infinitely wore satis faaory to the public feeling, and more consisteot with the preservatiOn . of the rights and privileges of the e House of Commons. 7 Mr. ADM wished for the indulgence of the . House, 'while lie shortly, candidly, and he trusted, satisfadorily, explained his condud with resped to. the Comtnitkee appointed on Monday evening. though ,he had no objeCtion to the appointment of that Committee e for 1 the purpose of investigating fa Gs, he had the most serious: objection to their be ing aut!iorised to report an .opinion, because lie tliong;lt, that to vest ste-h.anthority . in any Com mittee, upon such a queition ; was in a .great mea snre, ahatLionment t:y the Hotise of theitrprivileges.• The House•ef Ceminens posspsied ample means of entOreing - it privileks, - although they had not yet been r simed to. tic Oke year lino (at pQra?ii an Act passed. for 'ell:lug - away from the Members of the House. , Cum:eons fieedom from elions, ticc. andlervieg them the sinOe prig ilege of treedom rbm arrest) w hen any Member plained of a dotice of, afiion having been served upon' him (which frequently oc-erre.dy, the individual serv, ing it • was broae,nt to the Bar aUd examined. If he. - acknowledeed that he had e served the writ, either the matter was ordered to be, taken into considera tion by a Committee of priVileges c or the - party, was immediately taken into cus:oy. if any doubt exist-, ud e as to the grit, evident. .to establish it. From these established 'ere::edents, he drew this eon- elusion, that he could riot cl,degat to any Commit-- lee the*Abotity ofc?usiderin..; a slmjea abea.iy so clear. He was not in +he wnen :he Com- . inittee to which he alluded. was nominated, _and when his name teas proposed -as - one of the mull- belt' of it. , Of -this circumstance, - however, be Wi4Lis rOse"to oppose its reception. Every r eceived intimation in the course of the evening...-.I consideration which he hid been able to give to the He did not take any immediate step; but having re- subje6l,• confirmedlitn in the opinion that such a fleeted inaturelx on the subject, b,:ing.persuaded Petition ought not-to be received. It was.an. that there was only one safe:coursd for the Houk., to tional and deliberate insult on the House of pursue, he told a feat ned Friend of his, Who was a mons, in the prosecution Of the system industrious- . Member , of thacCommittee, that he shoufd not at- , ly pursued by a certain party out of doors, of Vili, . tend it. He conceived it would be proper : for the fying and degraditv. - IKat House, and thus working House to adopt some disiiro resolutions, digiinetly the most serious mischiefs to the Constitution. If declaring their privileOsondflie triode in ~ vhich they I any thing were wanting to prove . the intention of would be supported, and giving notice to all man- the Petitioners, it might be found in the Resoln bind that such would.be their course in future. In tious which were adopted by them on the day when Ills opinion, if the present subject were. refefred to they agreed to the Petition unilgr discussion. The 'the Committee already engaged .on the other, that Hon, Gentleman here real ,the Resolutions allocied Cominittet would fioJ (]el)er and deei..er to from a newspaper, and, et:intended,. that in other hi-difficulty. He repeated, that the only safe cdurse times -the individuals who had affixed their sigma which the House could punue, was-to bring the tures to such a document, would not have been .person whose name was endorsed on the instrument out of prison twenty-four hours afterwards. If F , ;_ith , eXpiessions as th(37',6 contained in the Regolu t;onS had been admitted into the Petition, no man ;:ould,besitate for a moment in rejefting the Peti tiou as a most, violent insult to. the; House-; 'but tbe.terms of the two produaions were not precisely the, same, their spirit wds exactly The party-Iron) which this and similar Petitions pro ceeded were unanimous in their general abuse of the 'House of CoMmons—Of the , Outs as well as the Ins, and of the former indeed, ,still more than of the latter: Even the Hon. Gentleman opposite, i'Vho had gone a great length.with Them, had.,Only been considered by. them ,as a " decoy duck ;" nay, • at rtptiblic meeting which that Hon. Gentleman at- ; tended, .an&at Which he had ventured. to state a possible case in which the House might justl)o resort to. the privilege of commitment; be Was . on-, der the necessity of restoring the hailni)fiy. which that. opinion had interrupted, by proposing - the health of that worthy and distinguished patriot, Wank rrra.rh Considering that- by the reception of sucli a : Petition, 'the•House would be the accomplices of their own degradation,. he should most oettai•nly vote against the motion. , Sir T. ..TI.JRTON CIO not. think . that a peti.inti complahung of grev.inces ,ought to be rejected, however strong, the. language in which it was ex pressed, unless indeed it . were addressed " to the assembly in St. Siephen!s"Chapel," or " to the Hoorn," or in arty other mode equally insulting, which the, pr,!lcent pet it 'on was not. . When it w:s the opinion of ran persitts in and, out of 'the House--whet;, he ,vonid say, it was the opinion of strcii a l tre,!i mind as that of the C-Ltnlk , ,itian - near him : (Mr. Whitbread); not only tLlt the House had exercised its privileges improvO:otly, but that.it bad no right, in the pre sem ,ca,se, to exercise' them all—was it. surprising that the people should exprets' therriSelves frankly ari.insfancesrf forht3ranee. In the rescititinns 6s. offenive, and not'the petition, he-Could only see a desire to avoid expressing their feelings in a man ner which might be objected to. Nothing had trans pired with respea to the meeting, to pave that••ei ther The livcS-or the proi , erty. of individuak attending it would have been endangered, as the Hon. Gen tleman seemed to apprehend. -It had been a , 4;ed, why petition§ bad not been received from other counties. Such were Out to be,expeaed if those presented by Niddlesex..Were thus tejeCted. That they might know the real sense of the people, nd obstrWtion ought to be given to their exercising the right of petitioning, and it it was thou tit that.r,3eaP ,ing t lie Petit ion of t he Livery W ciuldideter of hers from. expres.ing their sentiments, that would be widrhina the strongest reason for receiving it. `ANNE was of opinion, that theresolu !ions, whatever they might be, cotrid furnish :u s d reason for•Jejeaing the petition ; but the Veritionr itself, •he said, was couched in such tennis thAt. he thought it really ought not to be enteitained— •It Was the bounden duty Of the 'House- to vindicate their privileges, and as they had received-Oen) !roar. their foriftatheTs, transmit them to their posterny. Feeling this; he should vote for the rejethon of the petition. . _ Sir J. NEWIORT thought the question was, whe ther or_ not the people had a right to state their grievances to Parliament. It trey might not eX— ptess their disapprOhnion, they had no riglit of pe4 titionini;. - -- It was . btAter that the people should 'ex press their grievances, than that they should bi'ood • over them in .siler.Ce,' till at length tile feeling they call forth, bursting all restraint, became. dangerous to the State.. Such' condud it was which brought on those calamities which .bad visited the continent. The City of. London had in a regular way stated their grievances to the 'House, 'in a manner which ought not to give the House_ wren( e. But it was 'said that though they said they did not mean to offend npan the whole their petition could only be considered as an insult. An Hon. Gentleman who had been placed by the City in a high offieidl situation, had spoken of their meetings being attended by pickpockets, as being • numerous from, their vicinity to Saffron=hill. . was not just thus to characterise those meetings. Hp was then . told of protests agaiusr their procet-diogq, but a General Meeting, regularly called, hild inure weight with him. If the sentiments of the Petition • voted in Common Hall were not' those of the ma jority of the Livery, why did not those Gentierried attend ? .Why suffer themselves thus to be 'over borne ? With resped to what had been said. of -OP Meeting haVing -been held in the passage to the Court of ii - iug's Bench, he would ask how the Sense of the City of London had been.Coletted'on former occasirms?-4-lad the sentiments of the Livery never been taken' in a propo . , manner but When t hey were in tay,:ur' of Minister;? No fault was found with the nianrer:in which they were collected at the time- the cry of _" - No Popery" was raised. Toe means then made use of by Ministers to answer their own purpose's were turned ag ,inst t hen - Helves..theY ' .vere not the first who had 'fallen by engines at-their own conitrudion. He thought the 'Petition ought td be received. . . and warmly on 'the subject ? Goaded and' irritated as the-people had ecei)tly been by the condua of public men (One. AS ‘vham, :in. Whose imprpdence all thosedifficulties in ,which the House found itself- originaied, bad lately been raised to a situation of great honour and - e.molumenl), Was it surprising that .they should express' their fe;ylingsi of clisgust in strong enet(getc language ? • To the privileges of the House 01 CoMmons be was himself a lA/2.l'm friend. In his opinion their priv►leges weie 'coeval with their: existence, - and onghtE•never to be abandoned ; but he coui•l not . consent .to "reject the petition , Of a respettabl , body'of the people, because on - this sub ject- their sentiments differed from. his. Mr.JAciau inquired - how it happened, if the sen timents of - the majority of. the people of Engla;:d were the same as those .who had .presented that pe, titidu - ,:that they had no more such petitions.. It was not to be double& but the pickpockets from Satfron 7 hill, and the friends Of liberty from Fleet lane, would rally round the standard of Oprpar. and confusion on which their existenCe depended, but • it did not thence follow tint the sentiments' of the people Of England were t hose expressed in the pe ti+ion. .One Hon. Mernkel had said there might be'three thousand people assembled in the 'Rdl, -another thought there might be two thouiaPd, but probably not half of the crowd thus colleed tote- tiler were members - of the Livery of. London. - .meeting was held in a‘coinmon passage leading to' the Court of Kind's Bench., and e‘ic.r"v person who stafed•himself to l.:ave business in tliat Court was itninediateh admitted, and might thus become in effed one of tho,Livery. M'any "Who might be dis posed to attend the meeting were detect - JAI from Mr. PRELE desired to knew if the. Hon arable Baronet, or'any of those who opposed the rejeetiel of the Petition, Wished -to- open like do rs of the I-10-ose to insult ? It there were any iiolir s which ought-to be .obserVed by the:se petitioning the Howie 'he would 'ask if those 'lintits had rim been -tens gressed, and if there were any p iet a; which the - House ought to make a stand against insolence, hc ,wotild ask if they had not arrived at that point ? if no such limits existed, then they might thank these by whom the petition W,,IS voted for their forbear ance, and prepare to receive, new insults.. He pro tested against submitting to insult, and thought tho worst thing they could do was to acquiesce in it itt the first instance. It was wise to forgive uninten tional errors, but not to overlook an intentional fence. They bad been told of the'consequences of rejeCting the petition, but it was to he remembered they required no , subniision from the people, but merely that their'addresses should lave the negative merit of not insulting the House,- Those who coo" SidereJ-that Hause as still answering every virtual purpose of the representation of the people, would? be hoped, maintain its dignity. The. petitioners founded their player on an assumption that that als illegal which yet remained to be decided upon he should . therefore under all the- circUmstances, Vote for its rejection. • Mr. Wi.Eeettr knew of no way of profaning di e right of petitioning more titan by permitting the abuse of that House in petitions. Had- there beer' but oneof the kind he-should have been disposed to receive it indulgently, but being the third he though t it necessary to rejeCt . it. It had been said, that as the petition it was said "we conceive," ‘`'i.l pears to us,'' &c. instead 4* stating positively VY: charges against that House, it ought to he entertaiti" ed. It might with the same parity of reason be con' tended, that though, if a person p:onounced him to.. be a coward, a thief, or a murderer, he- would hale' a right to repel the insult, yetif the party only " I 'cpiceive you to be such," he:wbuld.haVe t} cause to feel offended. He thbught the 'prayer intea appear to every one to be but ,a secondary object V the petition, ar4d when . systematic endeavours were' perpetally making ,to overturn the authority ;Itl:i" .privileges ontat House they ought not •to overloo ,, theM. They 'might dyceive • themselves hot coulj not delude others. The Member lbr Bedf.al' Whitbread) had seemed to echo the sentiments of the petition, He rejoiced that there were not mat)/ Who thought •St) meanly of them eithei in or out of that -House. The most prudent, temperate, or n= 3 ' tural line, of condkt they could putsue was to reject'_; the eetition. . • • Mr. WHITBREAD had not given an opinion on tite petition., .U4l on certain expressions which it cow.' tamed. He lead:aSldld where vas the' justice of the House, when deciding on the questiur respect - 1 1 4 thelate'expedition, and Where its - dignity certain other occasions ? but he heel not pled;, - hiniself - to defend the . sentiment's •contained. 14 '1' had no intention Of doing so. 'He might sup;;‘) r , the motion ithout approving of the matter of tb" petition. • Mr. WARDLE,' a Member of Parliament arn! 3 Liver) man of the city at London; ocise to vindicate the Livery front the charges preferred'aqainst thell t ; The brutality Spoken of as the chara6teristic of 0.4; r — ' meetings was not with him a sufficient reason believing that thoJe. of a different opinion were afr- going to it by the brutal conduct Of those who were 'colledtd together on such an occasion. It was too much to expect min of respeCtability would risk encoutnering assassins and pickpockets. He. had to announce . to the House, that 1700 persous,` who were .undotal: , tedly of the Livery, had signed, in the most manner, a declaration opposing the sen- Ttiments contained in the ,pethion. It was not a petition pledging themselves to support his Majes-! ty's present Ministers, but a declaration in which . they pledged themselves' to support the Constitu tion-,to he giverned by the King, Lords, and Corn ' Mons, and . rn, which they expresed confidence in their Representatives, in the affection of the King,- in the 'integrity of the Parliardent, and, in the purity 7 .0 f the Judges of the land. That of which he spoke ..yas not yet coinpleted; it had - but just begun, and tvas still it its infancy. He • hoped ".it would i n :. crease, and that the sentiment would spread over th-- kingdom. He was not a party man—he had . strewn as much indei•endence as any man . -in that Hou-e, and he did not shrink from a "comParison with any man, however high his charager may . be . fur independence. He had voted against the son of the King, and the brother of Mr. Pitt, when he thought himself justified in-so doing,, and he had voted 'against Sir F. Burdett, whom he thought a ten thousand times greater criminal than either:, He would ; ever defepd the privileges of that House. It was strange, that if sentiments like those im puted to the great body of the People pervaded the kingdom; that they had no petitions but from places M:ddlesex ; which, from theh fron:-hill, could be . easily akiended by the gentry he had mentionech ,Seeing clearly. the spirit of these re oluttonsi . if any man, coupling those with the-peg tition, cud lay his hand on his heart, and say he thought it was not the intention of the etitioners 'to insult the House, he would be. justified in sup, porting if, But if the contrary should appear to . be the fact, he hoped, it would be unanimously, ir 41- most unanimously rejected. Believing it to be. a studied insult he could opt - vote . forits reception:- Sir S. ROMILLY thought, whatever ttle.opillion of the House might be on the Petition, they ought to come to a cool, deliberate decision.. Their door,*as the Speaker had said on a former occasion, ought to . . be opened wide to PetitionerS. They ought not to be extremely difficult as to the terms in whichper-, Sons thinking thernselves aggrieved might express themselves. ,It was the juiciest of the :House to. encourage such appeals. He did not knoW on what grounds . it' was proposed to rejeal the pe; tition. The pints considered as: insulting ought to be Particulatited. He did not know which Were the offensive parts, though he- had given the Petitions all the attention in his power. He knew • Of.no difference between this and the Westminster_ Petition, but that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was for the one and ag:rinst the other. The resolu tons that.had been read . from a newspaper they - fiad had no means of assuring themselves in a regular way had at,tually.ben come to .be put, admitting them to be genuine, tho Ugh circumstances furnished •, 1 , ,, 01 t iet If t I N il Il iti ! ) f . f• S uc Sh t /44 to FQI , b - „ ci i ,