The Sun. — London, England, 1810-01-30 00:00:00

.~ ~~ IMPERI AL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS. MONDAY, JAN. 29. Colonel DRINK.WATER presented tEd Tenth and Eleventh Reports of the Military Inquiry. LORD GANTBIER The-EarFof Li V i. II Pi)6l, rose;_and adverting to the Oreer of the Day for a motion of :Thanks,. to • Lord Gambier, said;' he :ivas sorry'to say that his Nobte Friend who intended to bring forward the motion was 'so much indisposed that he was quite unable to attend in his place that — day. He' should therefore beg - leave to defer the motion till Wednesday, .when it was probable his Noble Friend' might be able to :.I; tend. , .. - . . . - . . Lord GRENVJLLE thSght it would be more advise able not Ito fix a day until it had bett. ascettaintfd when the Noble Lord might be able:to avend. The motion, in I he' interirn,wasked for Thursday; THE WALCHEREN E Zc,PEDI 110 N. The Earl of LIVERPOOL laid upon the table se veral of the documents 'which had. besn adverted •to iH ,jais Majesty's -Speech, and:. obstrred, that be expeaed the remainder would be. ready in an hour or two. He, hoped they would be • printed • and ready for delivery on Wednesday, when a day might be appointed . for taking- them into -consideration. • The Marquis of LANDSDOWNE' rose. • He said, he had given_ notice a 'few days ago of-his intention to submit a motion to their ,Lordships on Thursday next, relativeio the matter contained in these papers.-• He had also promised to take an opportunity, in the mean time, of ; giving a more speolic notice of the. tendency of his promised riot 'on.. -Since that , time, however, it appeared from the vote; of the Housa'.of • Commons, that it had been determined by that-House of Parliament, that the causes and consequences. of': the unfortunate and disastrous expedition to the Scheldt should be submitted to the examination of a Committee of the whole House.—The motion which he had intended to make was also one for referring that melancholy matter to a-Corrimitteeeof the whole House. But it had since been suggested to'him, that the issue of The proceedings in the other House might probably be to bring the 7 -authors of that unfortu nate measure bAore -their Lordships in their judi cial. capacity. If) cousequence, therefore, of this suggestion, he should _for the present suspend hi& inteuded motion, reserving to himself, however, the rower, in case suCh_an event did not take place, to renew his noticerof - a motion- for. bringing that most _ _ unprosperous undertaking before their Lordships in their deliberative capacity. -He should new give notice, that on Monday be should mote an Address to his Majesty, praying for the -production of in formation respetting other points and- operations of the campaign. - . .• - Lord Gitay wished to remind their : Lord3hips of certain expressions which fell from: a Noble Earl. (LiverpooL) in the course-of a former debate; during which that Noble Earl read a pas-age of a General Order from the Horse Guarth3, relative to the 'eittory of Talavera, obsetVng, that ihteorder referred to had had the. sanction of. his Majesty's - M ilitary Advisers. He took occasion - on :that dar to -mark the impro-e priety of irnrodecing - his Majesty's name into the de b Ites of that House; when the Noble Earl in- expla nation said, that %yes not introduced otherwi s e than as coupled with-the advice and responsibility of Ministers. What he rose now to ask was, Who were the Military Advisers of his Majesty referred to by the Noble Earl ?- The Earl of LITERPOOE replied, that the Military . Advisers he had alluded to were; the [Commanderin Chief and the (Akers of-his Stair, whom he cOn sidered as the ordinary . advi-ers of his Majesty On military affairs,m het her the Commander in Chief had' a seat in the Cabinet or not. Lord GREY pressed to know with whom such advice had originated, whe!her with the Commander in Chief or wiqi his. Majesty's Ministers. -- The Earl of LweaPOOL, declined answering that' question on the ground, that similar questions might be put respecting the- origin' of the other measure, which it might not be proper to disclose. At the same time he had no difficulty in saying, that the suggestion, if it 'chd not come from the Commander. in Chief, had the sanction . Of his Majesty's Mi nisters; and that, if it did originate wit-'1 his Majesty's Ministers, it would have had_the-apepre bation of the Commander in Chief. In short, that , such measures were reciprocally:sanetioned by both; with whomsoever they might have originated.. Lord Git'EY cduld not help observing, that his belief was that the order in question Tad originat ed with Ministers, and that it was rather curious to heat-Ahem read a document suggested by themselves, in praise and approba!iou of Inch- own. measures. • ANIERICA. LOrd Gewir wiShed.to know if it was the _inten tion or 'inclination of,Ministers to lay before the House any further information respeding tLe late negotiation with America, pirticularly as, to What 'respected the conduct of Mr. FA-ski-vie in the nego , taktuon of that treaty. The papers which he . should be most anxious to see were, the :copy of inscruc tiOns sent to Mr. Erskine, which had not Yerbeen published, and the dispatch dated the loth tlprii last, Lord Livsaveot. could only say, in the absence of his Noble Friend (Lord Wellesley), that there existed Qll ,the part of' his. Majesty's Goyernment every disposition to produce : evry proper'informa- Oonon this sk'sbje6.l ; but be could _not,- in the ab- sence of his Noble Friend, plefte, hirnsv_lf to thq, produUion 'of any particular paper. He should . , i,owever,, take care to acquaint his Noble Friend with the wiihes on this head of the Noble Earl.• Lord GREY then gave nwice, on Thursday, next be should mote for the papers ho had just al luded to.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. MONDAY, JANDAItY 29. GROnGE TH YNINI3 . presented himself at the Bar, and read the answer of his Alajestv to the Ad , dre's of the House. Mr. GRANT presented the Tenth Report of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry, which was laid . , on the Table. Mr. NVAntILE 'roved, tlrt there be laid before_ the House a retort) of the 1111:"1:1)t(of,t4e Royal ,taff, v. , Obao account oflbe ex.ences incurred in svppott of ':he salpe Tor thcaear W.llich was ottlektd itecordiogly. • .; Mr. PATIN ILL wished to know if it was the inten tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to continue the prohibition for the distillation from grain, a►ul if it was.to be continued with respect to Ireland ? • The CHANCELLOR of the Excusausa said it was not the intention to remove it at present. The CHANCELLOR -of the Decagonßa gave no tice, that he would move en- Wednesday for a -Se-• led Committee,' for the purpose of adopting regu lations With teSpect to the accuracy of Private Bills, and for other purposes. s -- • • - - SUPPLY. The C,IIANCELLOR of Exotni,auzst. , 'moved the Order or the Day for the House to resolve itself into a ,Cominittee of .Supply, :for , the. puypose of'taking into consideration' his Majesty,'s Speech. - Lord , M A HON said, ,he availed himself of the pre sent opportunity to Observe; that it was destrable that the taxes of the conntryshould be collected equitably, and not partially, from the whole of its , populaicon;"but Yet,a-great difference existed in the amount - collected .in :.Great Britain and Scotland. According-to the repoit of the Finance Committee, while the amount of taxes . in this country exceed ed 3g.300,0001. in . Scotland thsy , did not produce more -than '31000;0001.'; and the. IriCome - and Pro perty 'Pax, while it produced in- this 'country , il,ooo,oool.'did not produce- more than 300,0001. and. he therefore wished to - obtain,some inforMation on the subject.. , • The CKANCELLO R . Of the •EXCIIEQUER said, if there was any - defect pointed . out in the Collection of the 'taxes Scotland, he would be very happy to.. have it-remedied: So far from thi3 . being the'case, application had been made &Om that part Of the United •kingdOm, for some alteration to be made in the 4-c-ale of-the-Property - Tax with' res - pear te - it re- Auction. Directibn•had been given to obtain in formation on the . subjt'ct, ari,Much - had been col lected, but he was not yet enabled to give any de cided information on the business. - Mr. HORNER was of opinion that Ike subject should be taken into consideration without delay. • The CHANCELLOR Oftlle- Exc EQU BR moved that a Supply should . be granted to 'his Majesty, " Sir JOHN NE'W.POUT sair.4 he rose" for she purpose of offering a few obserVations on the subjeta of the Supply, as he i%vould not wish id have if understood that those Who•ebted for the address, or for a sup . - ply being granted -to his Majesty, were considered bound to, suppom the application of the money voted according to the whim or caprice of Ministers. Itwas evident from the - speech of likMajesty, that it was the design to prosecute the war in Portugal on a large scale. Now • he-rose to offer his objec-'! Lion, and to enter his protest against. the disposing of any, money to be voted- in-defending Portugal.— Atter all the rage for exp'editinns., Spain has been given op, and he understood that there were more troops undet:, orders for Portugal, which .we could not retain ; for when the French advanced, the troops- must retire to their ships, Subjeaed loan the hardships, -losses, and inconvenience, that unfortu- - :,lately occurred -to the British previous_ to their em barkation at Corunna. It :Was evident ,from the dispatches of Sir John Moore, that the country could not be defended on acconnt Of the numerical, force of, the enemy. He was therefore against the prolongation of the war in Portugal,. because he con sidered its - being continued merely for the purpose of- obtaining the assent of a Nobleman in power, that another Nobleman might. be considered as a kind of Viceroy over that country.. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, when any mOney - for that purpose was moved in a Committee of Supply, the Right Hon. B3ronet would have an opportunity, if he thought fit, to move an Address'to his Majesty against its applica tion. There was no pledge whatever on the part of the House, because the address was voted, or the present motion Carried, to agree to the carry ing on the war in Portugal, or . for any other purpose. The motion was then agreed to, and Cie House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. Wharton in the Chair, and resolved that a supply be granted to his Majesty; the report to be receiv ed to-morrow. Mr. WnITURRAD deferred his MotiOn for Ameri can Papers, and fixed no precise - dly for bringing it. forward, in Consequence of more urgent business being before the House. SINECURE PLACES. Mr. FuLLEtt - gave notice that he would move, on that day fortnight, for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish all Sinecure Places in the United KingdOm, after the demist of their present posSessors. , Mr. GiLes gave notice that he would on Thurs day move for leave to bring in a Bill that would have for its objet the amending so much of an ad passed in the 34th year of his present Majesty, as relates to checks upon Bankers. THE INQUIRY. Lord PORCIIIIBTEII, as the testimony of the Martinis of Huntly would be desirable oA the 'in quiry into the condu& and policy of the late Expe dition,' moved, that a message be sent to the Lords, requesting them to desire George Baron Gordon to attend a Committee of the HoUse on . Friday.— Carried. Mr. HORNER gave notice that on Thursday next he would tubve for accounts relatipg to the state of bullion in this country. NEWSPAPERS. Mr. MANNING called the attention of the Ho'use to a circumstance which he regarded as a breach bf one of its privileges.' He held in his hand a News paper, which contained- two lists of she names of the Members of that House; the one consisting of the names of those NA ho voted for the Inquiry, on the last debate ; the other of those who were against it. The names bad not only thus been given to the public, but marks had been placed against them to distinguish those who were in the borough interest. He bad be o: misrepresented, but he would not bring forward a complaint against the Paper; his motive in noticing it was to put the parties On their guard , for the time to come, as, if they continued the praetice he had spoken of, he had reason to be lieve that many Members of that House beside himself would'call for the 'severest:punishment they could Mr: CRICEVkY said, that .so far fr,tri the price the Hon. Mewl? . had notice.' hciug a breach of the. privde.,:es of 'that Howe, it was nothhig more than what had been done by i , s own order. In Lhe time of .1.1114lijaill; the ba'rwr:6 of the Monibeo and the s'de on whi i they .votco, were ordered to be 'published, that, the• eapnity might know who were most aniiors to disj;arge Iheif duty. , • • , Mr. LASC'ELLES thought it was not so much the .publication of the names, as the oircurnstance:W marks being placed against them that constituted/the offence, and as appeared in a new list,:that madetits appearance on that day. A misrepresentation with respeft•to himself bad taken place; as lie,•accorditig to that, appeared ,Against an inquiry, 'which was not the fact. WILEMIFORCE approved of the practice, and thought it ought to be continued,. that •the line' of eondtta pursued by every MeMber of that Ennse might be knoWn: to his constituents, but - those who presented such lists to the public ought to be: care ful to' see that they were correct. He 'had reason id complain, as from, the mkrepresentations that had taken place, his constituents , -might from - this suppose that he had „ neglected his duty to them, which he had: never done, unless prevented by sick ness-or ',some , unforeseen :eircturf§tance. ' This was not the only misrepresentation of which he. had to complain. A few nights back he had been naistut stood by an Hon. Gentleman on the other side. .He 'had disavowed what ,he had 'been understood to assert, but his disavowal had•not been noticed. It, was of no small'imporiance to public men what went abroad as . having been uttered ,by them in that House. SOme Gentlemen were, perhaps, more particularly attended to than others, from their being particularly connected with a pa: ty ; but he; being known to be an enemy to all patty, bad no, body'to take care of him (A Ifittg4).. He could u'ot. .say he had loSt his character tli:oogh t: is circum stance, but he wondered that he had not,. having been so often misrepresented. Mr. Por4so,,,:aV derived one pleasure from that de bate, as he was happV to seerGeollemen - were then sn titixtou4 to stand well. with their constituents. - If any wilful misrepresentatiOns Were published, they ; certainly could not be punished with too Much se verity. They certainly ought to be Correa, but, inaccuracies might sometimes innocently occur. He, did not think the evil quite.so great as some - persons were of opinion it was, as it could be - remedied with.: wit much diffloulty, by the parties noticing-any such misrepresentation in that House; and thus correJ ingthe error. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQU.4It did not 'know what reason the Honourable Gentleman hid so particularly to compliment the House on"being thns anxious to stand well with the Public lie did not know that they were then more than usually so, or that they had done any thing that seemed -to. bespeak theM inattentive to the duty they owed their constituents. :With respell to the subject be fore the House, he thOtight, if brought forward at all, that it ought to have been not merelhnoticed, but complained of. Did the Honourable ,Gentle man think it no inconvenience to be 'misrepresent ed, because every 'Member might Come down and correct those misrepresentations that affetaed him ?. Was - that the dignified line -of conduct he would, prescribe to the House Ought any -misrepresent ations to be made merely because they:couldte cor;. retied ? 'When a Member made sich a eorrectior, the correaion rested with the same persons who had been guilty cf the • misrepresentation. They could give it just as they pleased,- or omit it entirtly. it had been Said, printing :lists of their names was not a breech of the privileges of that House, because: the printing of the names bad sometimes been or-. dered , by the Members of it. Did the Hon. Gen tleman mean to assimilate the printing,of the names . by their own order, with that care and accuracy uithwhich they were then published, with the pub-. lihhers of newspapers giving to the erro neous list ? If a 'circurnstance of that nature were noticed at all, he thought it the more dignified way to bring it forward by way of complaint. Mr. PONsoirnY, in eNplanivion, said he - had been misunderstood. He did not Fay that inconve nience arose from such misrepreserrt - atiebs on the contrary, ha' bad said, that if such, Were Wilfully made, they ought to be severely punished. sHe had said, that the evil was not quite so great as some. Gentlemen seemed to think, as it cold be reme died ;- but that Was - not saying it occasioned rib iti cotwenithice at ail: the CHANCEL,,LOR of the Excispausa explained. Mr. WHITlittEM> was sorry the Right .Hon Gen tleman appeared so 4 - ore 'when his •Hon._ Friend' had spoken of the present 'feeling in the House. lie. had sometimes noticed that toWards the close of the sixth Session of a - Parliament,- the Members ap peared more commonly awake to the intereSta of the people.-• He saw' a something of tha t - so.rt t - )f feeling then in the House. He hid observed more On the second night of Session than on the firsr, and still more on the third. He was unwilling to_ cow plain of the cor dna of some Newspaper Editors,, or he might, as his speech had been entirely left out to make room for. the Right Honourable Gentle man's opposite. The Members for York might have cause to complain . , but he dared to say, that if he was misrepresented 'in one newspaper he fodnd good report of what he had said in another. Though some were bad, yet, upon the whole, the-people were enab!ed by them to ,fortn, a tolerably just esti mate of the charatier of 'a public man. Of all others, he thought this the most innocent breach of their privileges. The placing- an asterisk against a man's name to mark another as the representative of a boroughs when erroneous, was not so great as to justify bringing the printer to the Bar. He had been in Parliament eo years, and never once remem bered a case where he was not 'disposed to let the printer escape, and this was the • last case in which he would infiid punishrrient: He agreed with the Members . for York, in thinking their names ought to be published, that no ambiguity might attach to their condu6t. Mr. BANKS 'made a- few_ observations, after which, • Mt. MANNING brieflly replied, objdOing more to the marks and comments which `accoMpatlied the names, than to the printing of them alone. - The SPEAR observed, that 'though no question was before the House, the debate must have a limit, and - he hoped they had then arr:ved' at it. INFRINGEMENT OF PRI.VILGE. Mr. W. AV.(Nr44 said, that in consequence of the noticc. or a Noble Loid for a Motion for the Mi nutes.clf Admiral Gombier's'Trial, he I hoLight 'it his dwy to . look over those Minutes. Ho was ,very much surprised while readiuz thrmm at a letter wLicli there the 4 his eye. Eery Member in that he thought, lead a tight to vote as he conceived O l d s ,upon him to do„withen! being prele I.oaslyexposed to be interrp2ated ai to the vu:e he meant to give, or subsequently as . to the reasons whieh induced him to give it. Lord ,Molgrave, , in his letter to. Lord Cochrane,' had violated this prir lege, as his letter informed the Noble Lord th.tt no° -derstanding he intended oppociitg the motion for . I thanks to Lord - Gimbieri f:r the victory in the Basque Roads, he Was corntnanded to 'ask why he Aintended to oppose them, to the end th tr Minister might.beenabled to judge of. the -grounds on,,whicl 3 his oppositiOn was foundeit? . He wondered bow tl;e Writer of the letter went so far to infringe the rights !I of that House.'' . Nvas . ,aw . ai - e' 'that ,it might 13F :said, why did'he not bring forward this subject nil the Noble Lord'ii motion ? His reason I for not doing' so was, he thought a question of privilege ought . not to be coupled with any other. He concluded by moving for; " A copy , of Ole letter from the Lord's. Commissioners of the Adini ' ratty for the, trial of •lord - - Gambier, dated 15th of April, ,1809, together 'with 'One dates May twtlif addressed to 'LOH - Cochrane, aad referred to in the • for - liter." - - •• • .The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had 116 4;4l)jetlion_ to the production of -• the' letters. No" thing, hoWever, iu hiy opinion, could _be more proper thab. to call upon the Noble Lord to state . , .the grounds on Which - he intended opposing the piopsed . motion, al it was necessary that• they: know what cause for enmplainf he had against . that 'Officer, that if hee , :s•iny, they might i ns tituto a Court Martial, to inquire into his conditcl.--* Gtan!ed. MINUTES OF LORD GAMBLER'S TRIAL: Lord COCHRANE, in a speech of some length, entered into a detail of the. circanistanees the attack on. the - enemy's fleet in tleßaiquelloacis• Lord Gambier brd ne&cted his signals, and failed to support him in a full'and efficient manner. object in view, the deStruiaion of the enemy's fleet, he thought • not sufficiently 'accomplished, when more might haie been done. According to his owa account, Lord Gambier had delayed to support him, for more than four hours ;, but According tb his,. (L. C.'s),. he had -dune 'so ler more than six, and when at last he tookup . that position which it would have been - aciViSable for 'him to InVe taken earlier, the enemy's ships were - out of bur reach. He pledged himself byall, that was A. - 21tiable to him as a man, to prove that the conduEt of the Court-:Martial on Lord Gambier's trial was .such as'they ought to blush for. He contended, that ,to give the - thanils of the. House town officer, who had . brert tried for his-life,- who had not gone in to the enemy,. but who had been out- of Sight during the 'IA holea64orti would be -king that for which no prec:dent could be found. He, called upon the House in insist on the prodnEtion of ,the minutes of the trial. Thost , - produced, he pleJged 'himself - to Shevi, that the Court Martial had proved itself partial in a manner unworthy a Court of Law. He . _ wool! i l . prove that- - the charge. and: the evidence Were contrary-to law; '1 -that.eontradiCticins had been 'giVert- on oath by the sat -;.:t evidence ; • 'yet they were admitted by the' Judge Advocate. The House ought to be on thei , guard against giving into motions of that' sort, as by those means Government might screen themselves from merited reprobation, and aitS for a man whwe,. parliaMentary influence they wanted, the highest honours they could bestow, •however unworthy thk , ..*, object. It would screen themselves from the. ceu • sure they deserved for appointing an ealcer to a. station, the duties of which he was-incompetent to discharge. If he did not prove -all he had under-, taken to prove when they acceded to 1..4 motion, he Vrotildtesidn -- the honours' his. Majesty h a d be stpwed upon resi g n - - the Co:;s'Lgrt himself to the con : 1 tempt and obloquy he should in that case deserve. /4 He, \visite& Ministers-would hive such •a -pledge to prove their statement. - The Noble Lord coneluM try tboOing---E`that a Copy Of the Mittut,S of the Trial of Admiral Lerd Grimbier, on hoard-his Maks- ty't. ship Gladiator,- in- Portsmouth HArbonr, utl'time 23d Ot_ July, 1806,-be laid before the Haase." The Motion was seconded by:Sir - F. Burdett. Captain' BERESt7ORto said, he was- 'oh& of the Dviecnberi" of the ,Cottrt Martial. Persons of more . uniirpe'acitable verazity than tho,e wholormed that Court, he,did not believe were it) eNistenee. The ~ evidence 'giyen , in that Court he:believed to' be strictly:true.' Pie himself. was -an. evidence n,til a strong one 100. He could not go; as the Noble Lord-thought -he might- have gone,' without stteri tieing. his ship. - Asserting this, lie asserted the truth, and he hoped the_ Whole of the whne,i,es ' a lhered to the truth as -he did. He thought the condua of Admiral Lord. Gambier such.- as becarne a British . Officer. Had- he acted differently tie would have disgraced himself. He - would nut: , have * been' able to have got his ships off after the attack, and our sailors would' now -have been the prisons of France. Be would not give up the experience and knowledge of Admiral Stopford and the other.-officers; whO ammlved of the conduCt of LordiGambier, for the opinroh of time Noble Lard.' The Noble. Lora; when accusing others of partiality, seemed to forget his own conduct in - NI - ming the chart, and even the enemy's fleetefor the purpos... of his evidence. Sir JOHN ORDE said, the servicesrf Lord,Gambier 'night be meritorious, yet they might not be entitit d to the Thanks of that House. - He voted against t 1 produttion of the MintVes. General.' LOFTUS wished the Honse to consir!er well what they did, and the consequences of their ' interfering with the decisions of a Court Martial.--.,.% Such a procedure would affeet„ the' feelings (el the Army in a very sensible mantier, and the de cisioas of those Courts would never be considered as' secure. s . - Mr. LYTTLETO.N.prOVed that' Ile Ind a precedenp'r. for interfering with the deciions of a Court• Martial. Hedid not see that because the Minutes were pro duced, they were•bouud to interfere, with 'the deci sion of 7. Court Martial ; tut they might see grounds to withhold the Thanks of the Howe:'• ,Mr. MARRYAT thotig,ht the Atautes ought to bq produced. before Abe Tls9uks werc_req u i red. , : The CHANcp.i.Lpa of the , 147mc %ay sic did not fhe exr,Ct4 "to oppose, bnt to 2tnneml . the, Motion., 1:1 :L Iloue•yvasthe 014 y - tribunal competcn° to dee'4,. tlw i)olicy of the Expedition to th 4 ., Scheldt; b....L . that ditY, red materially f;(itn the - present_ It tile [M ., notes of 1.1:c., trinl were to be produced, it mug be to reliew the conclud of The COUrt-; 4nd not to relimi- th e ,‘ h a d cc% f•ord Ut cubld t ft:t r everse. the o e( "Positig th hadl assert e d t t :Y acceded e ht ~men 1 1 never hea Goo - Itk "°rd of • the ,P l act the i nte ' ll evil,. than t the tours— Mister s titig.t tignals cif beio; 6 ticit at cause a tiLe mc btc Prc , ai;l) b Nen s. 'vas : th Air. was, v atiould did 4 1ppo] gaiia n pul that a Mart i or the F?,feft Pbl( • , Aerat t tone Gaorti trcse az 11 lauc lie 'he M em :Pea ula rti t) kl.t t , l erc V Wa s 111 e1 ‘%11): pl ' ay Nob ti re 110,, ue hlor, kl%-- sini i i Ile