The Sun. — London, England, 1838-07-21 00:00:00

. • THE SIGN , LONDON, 18." JL 11DA U ploying twenty-two children more than twelve hours. Before whom was this case tried ? Before three Magistrates, who were all of them mill-owners. The whole amount of penalties in that case, had they been awarded, would have been 1601., and what did the House think was the amount imposed for so flagrant a case ? It was reduced te, 171.—(Hear, hear)—which he (Lord A.) would venture to say wars n ..ot the result of 10 minutes' labour of the children whom he bad eves , worked for several hours. And this was th e w a y in which this 4" .et was carried on; The whole amount of the pen a lti es imposed o' these mlllowners mace the Act came into operation, Ras tool.—(Hear, hear.) By the regulation of the inspect or s e y child taking a certifi cate was bound to pay the Seronee "'.xpence for his trouble.—(Hear.) Now what did the House , ',ink Iles been levied during the same period of time upon the wa l„es of all the children under 14 years of age ? Why, a sum not 'dutch under 13,0001., and this it was to be re membered too, ear the certificates of surgeons, which, instead o f g ivin g P r° 'settnn, afforded further opportunities of aggression. If that certi ' atilt so to be taken out was given to the children, then he should nst complain ; but when it was given to the ,naster, and lieeawn".. the instrument of the child's oppression, the law suffer. ine such a state of things to exist, it was tyrannical and vicious. --(Enid cheers.) Such being the case, was it wonderful that thee working classes should be discontented, and hold in contempt the makers of the law, its vindicators, and the taw itself ? The educe_ Lion clauses were not observed in one-fiftieth of the mills; and where there was a formal compliance with them the schooling given was a teem. plete mockery.— (Cries of " Hcar, hear.") The Bill that was in troduced by the Noble Lord, and so very suddenly withdrawn, pointed rnit the defects of the existing Act. He desired to see that Bill introduced, because although it had. W%any objections, yet there was a great deal in it that was hood. It would give activity to the present law, and that was effecting something. That year which had now to be passes!. in ignorance and suffering, might have been passed as a year of hap,siness and moral and religious educa tion. The Noble Lord, however, thought otherwise. To leave the law as it stood was unjust, as the child was made the sufferer ; It was equally unjust to t'..e honest mill-owner who wished to obey the law. In 1536, the jovernment brought forward a Bill, not for the amendment of the law but to repeal one of its most essential provisions, by which children under 14 years of age were prohibited from being worked more than 12.. hours. That Bill was carried by only a majority of twe,which induced t'se Government to withdraw the Bill, at the same time giving ae. assurance—a pledge as strong as could be made—that the provisions of the law should be strictly enforced. How was that pledge redeemed —By an immediate and monstrous violation of the law. The Noble Lore laughs— 'Lord J. RUSSELL—It is absurd. Lord ASHLEY was very sorry ; but he had to repeat the statement, for it was true. The Act required that before a child Could work 12 hours a day, there must be a certificate in proof that t `le child's age was 13. Now the surgeon had actually be en Prohibite''s from asking gnestions about the age; and it was said, " If reu find a child whom you know with certainty to be not more than twelve years of age, with such extraordinary deve l 'speenent as to be of the ordinary streegth and appearance of 13 , you will be justified in writing the word " thirteen" in 1:,,e tertificate.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") With respect to the s 'eodard used for measurement in the mills—in the factory o f the tr --° "....Member for Oldham, out of 103 children in his service between she ages of 9 and 13, there were 57 who were found to ex. ceed the heir,'at ; and in another mill, out of 316 between the sameages, there were found 71 who exceed the height, and they were transferred from e' ght to twelve hours labour. He would not weary the House much Thor because he thought that he had shown that repeated applications h ed been made on the subject to the Government in vain. The Act was so grossly imperfect that it could not be carried out—it was impossible for the inspectors to enforce its provisions. The Noble Lord concluded by moving that the House deeply regretted that the law affecting the regulation of the labour of children in factories, having been found imperfect and ineffective to the purpose for which it was passed, had been suffered to continue so long without any amendment. Tee motion having been seconded and put from the Chair, Mr. FOX M A ULE had no fault to find. with the speech of the Noble Lord, except that he had exhibited a picture to the House that was both too highly drawn and coloureei, of what he called the miserable condition of she factory children. The real question was, whether that House had acted expediently or otherwise in foregoing the measure which had been introduced not to alter but to amend the law and make it operative. Bot',, the Government and that House admitted that their intentions had r,ot, been carried out in the way in which the present law was ad mini''.ered. The Noble Lord made a comparison between the bills of m'srtality at Manchester and Birmingham, and then he urged th e Weise to express regret for one of their own acts. The Noble 'Lord had talked largely of the mortality at Manchester and Bi tminghame but he had altogether forgot to inspect the grounds 'which had really occasioned that increase. At Manchester it Was well known that a system of building had been adopted rwhich was most destructive to human life. Houses were run up in bad and unwholesome situations, and as an instance of this he might state that even ditches had been taken advantage of, on account of the excavations, for the erection of dwellings for human beings. It was a great misfortune that there was no Building Act applicable to Manchester, far to this the great mortality in that town was to be attri. quted. In the reference which the Noble Lord had made to his (Mr. Maule's) Noble Friend, he had misrepresented what fell from him. It was the earnest desire of his (Mr. Maule's) Noble Friend to carry out the measure for the protection of the factory children to the fullest extent, and the Noble Lord must know that much had been done by the Government with that view, and that a further effort would be made in the course of next Session. When the Noble Lord asked what the Government meant to do with respect to this law, he was perfectly :aware of the circumstances which had led to the with drawal of the measure which had been introduced upon this sub ject. It had been given up only because it could not be properly considered owing to the press of other matter. The Noble Lord ad mitted that the Bill which he (Mr. Maule) had brought forward was satisfactory, for though he said it had some objectionable provisions, it also contained much that was good. It certainly contained clauses for improving the education of the children, and it was the intention of the Government, from time to time, to take such steps as would render the law as perfect as it was possible to make it. The Noble Lord had gone through the whole of the districts of the inspectors, and perhaps he (Mr. Maule) ought to explain why " nil" was returned from the district sander the charge of Mr. Stewart. The fact was that that district had been under the superintendence of Mr. Horner, and when Mr. Stewart succeeded to it he found that the law was carefully obeyed, and hence it followed that there had been no convictions to return. The Hon. Gentleman read passages from the report of the Combination Committee to show that the assertion of the Noble Lord as to the law being inope. native in the north was unfounded, and contended that there was no evidence to prove that the law had been violated in the mills in Glasgow. He assertsd that in the amended Act the principle, as regarded the ages of the children, and the periods of their work, was in no wise interfered with, and that the object of it was to secure to the children proper education combined with labour. He would at once admit that the penalties were too low, and that the law had not been enforced to a sufficient extent. It was true that in some few cases the inspectors had been refused admission to the mills. This could not be justified, and was, whatever might be the high character of the parties, calculated to induce a suspicion with respect to the mill-owners sitting as magistrates to adjudicate on their own cases. He must say that lie thought that statement. overdrawn. Lord ASHLEY—What I said was, that the sons and brothers acted as magistrates in, such cases. Mr. F. M .',VLF. said that even that was bad enough, and exhibited a lamentable want of feeling, sense, and propriety if it were so. Such persons, hOwever, were acting consistently with the law, and therefore it was out of the power of the Government to interfere or tell them that they ought not to sit in judgment on such occasions. It was no doubt true that there was great vagueness about the surgeon's certificates, and that uncertainty had rendered it impossible to lay down any definite rule on the subject. Mr. Hume had, after much trouble, laid down a rule for ascertaining the ages of the children, but as soon as the law officers of the Crown hail determined that it was contrary to the spirit and meaning of the Act, the regulation was rescinded. This was all that the Secretary of State could do ; and so far from evincing anything ' like indefference, the Government had done all in their power to remedy the 'evils represented to them by the Noble Lord and others, by in creasing the number of districts and inspectors. The Noble Lord ap peared to be carried away by a warm zeal for the amelioration of the condition of those classes to whom his motion referred. But the Noble .Lord ought to guard himself, lest in his great zeal to effect those inn prcivements he contemplated, he might place the law in such a con_ dition with respect to these classes, that manufacturers would find it irn. possible to carry on their business at all. What, then, would he the con sequence if such a result took place, and that thousands of these persons were thrown upon the world in a state of idleness and destitution ? If such were the case they would be exposed to far greater evils than those which they had suffered from any improper regulations of the fartoriea. He knew that the Noble Lord advocated a Ten Hours' Bill. He again declared that the Government would be ready as early possible in the next session of Parliament to remedy any defects which might exist in the present state of the law, always, however, avoiding to ttiterfere with those great principles of age and time adopted upon an senderstanding with the manutacturers of the country. The motion of the Noble Lord, he said it without intending any offence, pretended one thing whilst in reality it meant another. lie (Mr. F. Marne) trusted that the excitement which existed out of doors with respect to this ques tion would be allowed to rest during the intervening period until the next session, when another Act would be brought into operation. He did not hesitate to give the Noble Lord his solemn assurance that it was the ineentinn of the Government to amend the law on this subject in the near session of Parliament. :31r W. JA DIES recollected that it had been somewhat ludicrously - urged that the period of apprenticeship ought to terminate simulte. neously with the Coronation. It was in the recollection of the House that this subject appeared to excite a great deal of interest. The gal - leries were filled with gentlemen wearing broad brimmed hats, and clad in grave and sober celoured garments. Now, he contended, that the sufferings of those of our own country, who toiled in those factories, had as strong a claim for sympathy and redress as those which ap peared to have excited, to such an extent, the feelings of the country. He thought that it was the imperative duty of the Legislature to pre_ tact those children. The Legislature provided its sufficient protection for the property of minors, and guarded them against waste and extra. • eagance. let them recollect that the property of the poor man was his labour, and that he was as much entitled to the protection rf the lees, When the rich man spent his property he did injury to no ode but himself. This. however, was not the case with the poor man ; for when his labour was p rematurely exhausted, or extravagantly wasted, an injury was done to the productive power of the State. — (Hear.) Surely it could never be th t e u ir re n i l y terest nor their desire to see worked out, and their minds the labourers of the country f i l s e rem c a n ratulated his Noble Friend debased and degraded. on the same principle (Lord Ashley) on the part he had taken g with respect to those suffering I hid introduced a Bill c as la t s ra s t . int i r jj edu N c ' et )b i le b i y 'rie M i r h . ornratasion was agreed to, to in_ t; . iddler. that Bill was resisted; but as an txpedient,and as the next best thing, a , e ,,ed quire into the condition of those engaged these factories, and the evidence collected by the Commis sioners disclosed a fearful state of s t a te of things was, they m i g ht things.—(Hear, hear.) But bad as that was almost justified in saying that it vas own, ad s till in existence. The evidence of the children themselves had b e en taken d It disclosed a fearful and lamenta ble condition. labeur. That w hen the y They described n themselves as sick and tired after the day's teturn he ed to their homes in the evening t he y were obliged to throw them selves down from excessive fatigue. (T u e understood to be the substance read by t h e substance of an extract from the printed ev i dence Honourable Baronet.) A physician w h os e authority was en. titled to respect, had published some observations on the physical conditions of those children, and he stated that the labour in which they were employed, ou account of its protracted duration, ren dered them liable to pains in various parts of the body, to slings of P the feet, and that these appearances often terminated in the 1 o f serious, permanent, and incurable disorders. Up on the whole, the subject called loudly for the attention of the Government. lie day. regretters On the subject o that they had postponed the remedy f or a sin g le these muses, sinon . ,;st rgarly,other authorities, ho might appeal to the .I)i. , i`ki O Mr. Senior. The Hon. Baronet here read an extract from a purpose. It happened that Mr, Horner, the inspector. w lii.atement made by Mr. Senior, to the effect that such was the progres_ chester at the time fulfilling the duties of 1 - i i office sive increase of the fixed capital employed in manufactures, that to work ascertained that that Gentleman had not t' " that capital profitably, there should be an increase in the time of labour. sonally known to the Noble Lord, e' •' So that (continued the Hon. Baronet) the evils of which they complained, this his Lordship also declin- ' instead of decreasing, were rather upon the increase. The Hon. Mem- Lord ASHLEY .. her for Oldham (Mr. Fielden, we believe) had published a statement of while he a"- the condition of these factory children. The Hon. Member stated that utta until he made the calculation in his own factory, and under his own eyes, he had no conception of the extent of the labour -* these children endured. To his utter surprise, he fo , " - distance walked by a wretched child in the M,All' was not less than twenty miles, and, in so. greater. He did not concur in the high s-• introduced by the Government in thin ludicrous enactment with respftt, r• a provision to the effect t' a yt s. to time publish, or ifausa and no child, 7fl - 10 .- derstood) t3, - , BP` Holm . : 70. f.:•.^- that the of twelve hours ~se cases it was e' "h ..naracter given to th'e Bill session. The r“.'.l'contained a the childroo-. In it was containnd ..ie Secretor! , 31 State should from time to be publtshed, an easy book for children ; .as unable tO read this book, should as we un able to read. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for the ~artment, has written a tragedy, which, he supposed, was to .sit his name to posterity. The Noble Lord was now, however, ,u be employed upon the less noble labour of preparing a horn-book for the factory children. The present question was a ❑ational ques. lion which must come home to the business and bosoms of every Mem ber of the House, and in the hands of the House he was content to leave it. He had lately looked into the life of Sir W. Scott, written by Mr. Lockhart, and he had noticed an observation made by that great man in passing through a manufacturing district. It was this—" The justice of Heaven is requiting and will requite those who have bloated this country into opulence at the expense of the happiness and morals of the lower orders of the people."—(Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. TURNER. wished to make one observation. He thought the allusion to those who had crowded the gallery when the Negro Appren ticeship Bill was under discussign Was uncalled for. Though those who were presant on that occasion were few, yet no less a number than fif teen hundred thousand P'.,rsons had petitioned Parliament for the termi nation of negro apr , :enticeship. The exertions of those individuals had produced a bereticial result, and he was sure that all must respect the motives 17y which they were influenced. Sir W. JAMES said a few words in explanation, which were inau. 'h'ible in the gallery. Sir R. BATESON concurred in the sentiments which the Noble Lord had expressed, and which did so much honour to his heart, and which had been expressed with an ability so creditable to his talents. He resided in a part of Ireland where factories were rapidly increasing, and he thought that he was acquainted with the sentiments both of the employers as well as the individuals employed in those factories. It was stated on a former evening, by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, as well as by the Hon. Member for Dublin, that the parents of the children employed in those factories were adverse to any alteration of the present system, as the shortening of the hours of labour must have the effect :of diminishing wages. He knew the feelings of the parents of the children employed in that part of Ireland with:which he was con nected, and he did not believe that there was any amongst them so slavish—so devoid of parental feeling—as to sacrifice the lives and morals of their children for the sake of the few shillings that they could earn ty those additional hours of protracted labour. Mr. GILLON, as he had been made the subject of attack in one of the party papers of the day, trusted that he would be afforded an oppor. tunity of making an explanation of the circumstances to which the at. tack referred. It had been stated that on the occasion which had been fixed for the discussion of the Noble Lord's motion, he had entered into a conspiracy with the Government to have the House counted out. The Hon. Member proceeded to vindicate himself from an imputation pub lished against him to the above effect in the columns of a morning pa per. On the day in question he comedown to the House determined, if he had met the Speaker's eye, to say a word in reference to an Hon. Friend of his, who he thought had (as we understood) been talked un fairly of in his absence. On referring to the paper he found that his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny had priority upon the paper. He was, moreover, himself anxious to give notice •f a motion, and when he found that he was baulked in both the objects which he had in view in coming dawn to the House that evening, he got up, and without consulting any one, moved that the House be counted. He would like to know who would impugn the object he had in doing so. With respect t• the question before the House, he (Mr! Gillon) was much surprised at the statement of the Honourable Member for Dublin that in Glasgow the Factory Act was trampled under foot, and was respected by nobody. He would like to know on what autho rity that statement rested. The Hon. Member proceeded to explain that in Glasgow the Bill had been carried into full effect, and that the millowners gave every facility to the snperintendents and inspectors to see that the objects of the Act were fully and properly accomplished. In the borough which he represented factories had been established with the greatest possible advantage to the people, and, as far as Scotland was concerned, the Act had been carried into effect in a very satisfactory manner. Mr. R. FERGUSON rose for the purpose of vindicating the pro. prietors of two respectable factories in h is nei g hbourhood from any im putations that were made as to the evils of the s y stem generally. So far from having a desire to empl o y children contrar y to the p rovisions of the Act, they were most. anxious to give the inspector every facility to examine every part of the works, in order that everything in the management of their factories should be carried on in an above-board and straightforward manner. Mr. G. WOOD said, as the Noble Lord had alluded to the conduct of some magistrates of the county of Lancashire, he wished the Noble Lord to state on what authority he grounded the statement, and also to name the particular case to which he alluded. Lord ASHLEY, in reply to the question of the Hon. Gentleman, had taken the case to which he had adverted on the authority of the official statement. The case occurred on the 9th of March, 1837. The name of one of the offending parties was Scholefield. (The Noble Lord here referred to the official Report, and read from it an abstract of the case, together with the names of the magistrates present, Wood, Esq., D. Potter, Esq., and another whose name we did not distinctly hear.) Mr. G. WOOD said that, as the Noble Lord had accoirmanied his reference to the case with severe censures upon the conduct of the ma gistrates engaged in it, he trusted the House would allow him to ex. plain that conduct, and to vindicate himself from those imputations. The Noble Lord had stated that the cue had been dismissed in ten or twelve minutes. Lord ASHLEY—The Hon. Member had mistaken what he had stated, as he had said no such thing. Mr. G. WOOD was bound to say, then, that he had mistaken the Noble Lord, and be willingly accepted his disclaimer. When he found from the clerk of the Petit Sessions at Middleton that a number of sum monses had been issued, and as the cases were of a description that did not usually come before that bench, he felt extreme anxiety that there should be a full attendance of magistrates when they came to be consi dered. There were only two magistrates generally sitting at those ses. sions, which had (as we understood) been only recently established. Knowing the anxiety which these cases excited in the public mind, he wrote to his colleagues, expressing his desire that there should be as full an attendance as possible. There were three magistrates in attendance on the occasion of hearing those charges. Instead of dismissing the charge in ten minutes, they went in succession through the entire of the several cases, and stated that they would reserve their decision respect ing any one case until theyhad gone through them all. After having heard the cases they remained at least an hour in deliberation as to what were the penalties that ought to be inflicted, or whether they would class the cases according to their several demerits, and apportion the penalties ac. cordingly. The parties admitted their guilt, and the magistrates pro ceeded to levy such penalty as they deemed proportionate to the chas racter of the offence. Feeling that no inquiry had before taken place in that Court, they were determined to inquire fully into the circum. stances, the more particularly as much public interest had been ex cited on the subject, and it was equally for the interest of the menu. facturers and the operatives that the real facts should be generally known. They found in not one of these mills had there been any pre. vious complaint of a violation of the law; and they, therefore, felt themselves entitled to treat the charge brought before them (the Magis trates) as the first offence, and, therefore, to deal more leniently than if it had been of frequent occurrence. The offences, moreover, were all committed in country mills in which the factory law was scarcely known, and in which the proprietors and superintendents had most pro. bably never received any instructions from the inspectors with regard to that law. In all those cases penalties were imposed. There were three or four other cases in which the parties pleaded not guilty. With re spect to these they (the Magistrates) determined to appoint another day for hearing. A day was fixed, and the case investigated at great length ; all the parties were punished except one ; this was a case in which a manufacturer was charged with working a child of nine years old. The evidence against the manufacturer seemed at first very strong ; but on the other hand, the parish register, and that of the nurse who suckled the child, gave it a complete contra diction. In this case the party was acquitted. A heavy penalty was also inflicted on the convicted parties, as having, by their plea of not guilty, put the complainant to considerable expense.—(Hear, hear) The following day's proceedings occupied three hours. Knowing these facts, and knowing also that his brother magistrates and himself had been actuated by the strongest desire to do their duty impartially, he was very much surprised afterwards to find that one of the deputation by whom their proceedings wee laid bafote Parliament disapproved of the course they had pursued. The Report he alluded to was that of Mr. Horner, dated January 18, 1837. (The Honour. able Member here read an extract from Mr. Horner's Report, con demning the proceedings of the Middleton Magistrates.) He made the most anxious inquiries as to the public opinion of the manner in which these offences had been treated, and he had the satisfaction to say that he did not hear in the entire neighbourhood an unfavourable opinion of their decision.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had stated—he (Mr. Wood) did not know on what authority—that the majority of the magistrates alluded to were millowners. To this he must give the most unqualified contradiction. He (Mr. Wood) was not a rnillowner. Lord ASHLEY intimated that it was not millowners he had called them, but persons connected with mills. Mr. WOOD— At the the Noble Lord spoke it was his (Mr. Wood's) impression that he had called them three mill owners; but of course he WAS bound to accept the Noble Lord's explanation. The fact was, that he had for several years been a millowner, and great part of the pro perty he now enjoyed he owed to operative industry. This he was not ashamed to avow, but at the time of the inquiry he had no interest in mills, nor, he believed, had any of the Gentlemen with whom he asso.. ciated. There was one other circumstance to which he wished to at.. lude. There were only two instances in which he had acted under the factory law, it having been from the first his determination to take no part whatever, lest his conduct might be suspected on accouut of his connection with the mills. It was by none of his seeking that the Bench of Magistrates over which he presided was selected by the Re. formers to inquire into their case; but when they had done so he im mediately determined not to shrink from the ordeal. Since that time not a single case had come before him, and he could assure the Noble Lord that nothing wou ld g i ve him greater pleasure than to b e remo ved from such inquiry altogether. He thought, however, he was justified in saying that the inquiry in which he had been engaged had fully answered its intended purpose. The House would permit him to say that, living as he did in the midst of the menufac. turing districts, and feeling an anxious desire for the welfare and improvement, intellectual, moral, and religious, of the operative popula tion, and knowing that these were only to be effected by constant and vigilant attention, he felt a strong interest himself in proceeding under this Act, and he declared that a great deal of what had been uttered on the subject at present under discussion was gross exaggeration.—(Hear, hear.) It could not be expected that an Act dealing with such vast interests as the entire manufactures of the country could be brought into operation like a beautiful pieceof clockwork or a battalion of sol diers. The House would see that it was inevitable that the first work ing of such a measure must be imperfect, and that, without any designed violation of the Act, many causes of complaint would occur. But in stead of reading partial extracts from the reports of inspectors, they ought to read those reports entire—(Hear, hear)—as a mass of testimony coming from a highly.respectable and intelligent body of men who had been deputed by the State to sec the laws carried into effect. The 'Act had done touch important good and had removed many crying evils, to two of which only he would allude. It had contracted the hours of labour in every trill where the labour had previously exceeded a reasonable time, and it led to the employment of a much smaller number of children in those mills, In Manchester few were employed under thirteen years; and when younger children were employed it was in the tine and trimming department, where they were absolutely necessa:y ; but even then, in many cases, the system of double sets had been introduced. He could not conclude without ex. pressing the great regret and surprise he had experienced when he had the honour of meeting the Noble Lord in the streets of Manchester, and found that the Noble Lord, although never having been in the district before, seemed unwilling to examine himself into the condition of th e mills. He (Mr. Wood), on that occasion, tendered to the Noble L or d his endeavour to procure him admission into every mill in the place, and he certainly understood from the Noble Lord's conversation (he might have been mistaken) that he (the Noble Lord) had already made up his mind on the subject, and that he did not consider it necessary to pur,ue any further inquiry ; and also, that' his time was too limited fur the as in Man ; he (Mr. Wood) advantage of being per. proposed to introduce him ; but _a. dusted he should be indulged with tt NW MC:tents ,cred the strongest and nictt tlhrOtilided imputations ever .ed in public or private. ltb l / 2 't totild the Hon. Member assert that lie (Lord Ashley) wthk, t - 6 ganchester and refused to inspect the mills, when the fart was that he inspected every mill in the place ?—(Hear.) Did tl!e lion. Member mean to say that he (Lord Ashley) did not go 1411.;) him to Mr. Burley's mill, that he did not accompany him round the town ; could he, in fact, point out one singleplace in which inspection was declined ? How little must the Hon. Member know of his visit to Manchester, when the fact was that he (Lord Ashley) visited every mill in the town? For this he would appeal to the lion. Member for Sal. ford, who accompanied hint. Did the Hon. Member know how he (Lord Ashley) spent his nights while in Manchester ? He went to the garrets and the cellers of the operatives to make inquiries from the fathers and the mothers, and to ascertain the state of the children with his own eyes. And was he now to be told, when he brought the result of these inquiries and labour before the assembled Commons of Eng. land, that he had resisted all investigation, and had declined the Honourable Member's valuable assistance P--- (Hear, hear.) On one point alone he declined it, and that was the introduction to Mr Homer. This he did decline, and on these grounds ; he thought it would not have been fair to meet a man in private society at the convivial board, to obtain there his private opinions and feelings, and afterwards to ex press his (Lord Ashley's) opinion of his conduct as freely as his public duty might require. These were his reasons for declining the lion. Member's oiler of introduction, and this was the only case in which he refused his assistance.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. WOOD should certainly have been proud if the Noble Lord had accepted his invitation; but that seas not the circumstance to which he had alluded. It was the fact of his having requested the Noble Lord to accompany Mr. Horner on his inspection of the mills. The Noble Lord said he visited Mr. Burley's mills. He did so, but that was the only mill he visited. Most assuredly he (Mr. Wood) on that occasion offered his best services to procure him admission to all the mills, but he understood his Lordship to decline, and it was only on intercession of the Honourable Member for Salford that he was induced to change his intention. He (Mr. Wood) was surprised that the Noble Lord, when he did visit these mills, made no inquiry of Mr. Burley himself, of the work.people, or the Superintendents.—(Hear.) Mr. 11 ROTHER'FON was in justice to the Noble Lord bound to state that he (Mr. Brotherton) accompanied him to several mills, and he must say that on those occasions the Noble Lord showed no indis position to ascertain the real state of the manufacturing population__ (Hear, hear.) He considered that the present Act was so complicated that it could not be carried into effect. He had stated those sentiments during the progress of the Bill through that House, and opposed every clause; and he did think, considering the attention he had devoted to the subject—and the Inspectors had since borne him out in the asser tions he then made—that his opinion was entitled to some little atten. tion. He considered that the main object of the Act was to protect young people from excessive labour, and he thought he should be able to show that it was constantly violated both by masters and operatives. In proof of its violation he had only to allude to what had been said by the Noble Lord, and to the return which he (Mr. Brotherton) had the honour of moving for. By that return it appeared there were 4,000 mills in which 360,000 children were employed, and that during three years in which he Act had been in operation, there had been '2,000 convictions, and penalties inflicted to the amount of 0 ,5001. Now, these '2,000 convictions, out of 4,000 estab. lishments, were enormous in the time, and proved the difficulties which stood in the way of obedience to the Act. Another error in the Act was, that by it children of six years old might be worked for ten hours in a spinning mill, while in a cotton mill those of twelve and thirteen years were limited to eight hours' labour. From this and the frauds to which its evasion led, he felt convinced that the Bill did not give the p r otection which it was designed to gi ve . In hi s opinion he was coin pleely borne out by the testim on y of the ins p ector s. (The Honourable the Member here f re qu e nt violations i e o it n t s r extracts s thef ro i m e the n H testimony ou rßi of the insp ec t ors , p rov i ng , and the evil con se quences of such violations as exhibited in the wan and haggard appearance of the children. He begged to call the attention of the House to another fact, which was that, in 1835, 60,000 children, under thirteen years, were employed, and that now there were not more than 10,000. ( Hear, hear.) He thought that next Stssion this Act should be repealed as, while its intention was to enlighten the labour of the children, its tendency had hitherto been to cause them to work for much longer periods. He was not prepared to say, however, that they could reduce the hours of labour without increasing the price of the produce, or else reducing taxation, to enable the British manufacturer to compete with the foreigner. If the foreigner could buy cotton at ls. 9d. a pound, when we paid :2s, he would of course be able to undersell us. Thus, taxes on cotton, and on corn, must go, if we limited the hours of labour. Mr. O'CONNELL did not know any subject on which it was more easy to talk a heap of good natured nonsense, to give expression at the same time to very floe feelings, and exceedingly absurd political eco nomy.—(Hear, hear,) The reason why he now intruded on the House was, that, having said some time ago that in the evidence given before the Combination Committee it was found that the law had been violated in Glasgow, and, when carried int, effect, had been greatly injurious to the adult operative, he wished now to set himself right with the House —to show that his assertion was not without foundation—by reading from the report of the Committee three or four questions and answers. This evidence, he must observe, was not given by master manufactu rers, but by operative cotton-spinners—by Campbell and M`Nish, office bearers to the Union of Glasgow—both men of strong sense; and when Isis Hon. Friend talked of educating the cotton-spinners, he (Mr. O'Con nell) could tell them that these men had read a great deal, and thought a great deal. In page 50, and question d 39, the witness Campbell gave this testimony : " Mr. O'Connell—What is the age at which children are now taken into the spinning mills at Glasgow ?—I believe the law says 13 years of age, to work twelve hours a day ; but I dare say there are some taken earlier than that. " Are they taken in at nine ?--Yes. " Is it your opinion that the law is honestly worked out by not taking In children under nine, or do you think there is any fraud ?—I must say distinctly that the operative cotton-spinner is necessitated to overlook the law in order to keep his machine moving, by taking Young children in below thirteen, for twelve hours a day, and below nine for eight hours a day. " Lord Ashley—To your knowledge the law is set at defiance ?—lt was a matter of necessity ; the mills would stand still if such was not the practice. " Mr. O'Connell—Do you mean to say that it is impracticable to ad. here to the law in that respect ?—As far as my personal experience goes I mean to say—and I have a good deal of experience in the matter, hay. ing taken a very warm interest in that very question—that it is altoge ther impracticable to carry out the spirit of the present law as it now stands." That was the evidence of one cotton spinner ; this the evie Bence of another. " Mr. O'Connell—Were you rightly understood to have said that the law is violated with respect to the age of the piecers, and that they are brought in younger than thelaw allows ?—Yes, the law is violated. "And generally violated ?—Yes ; and our employers are throwing all the responsibility of that violation of the law upon the operative. The operative is obliged to violate it or allow his machinery to stand." At page 68, question 1,363, this was said:— " Mr. O'Connell--But you are understood to say that the work could not go on as it does now, unles s y ou em p loyed these piecers under the legal age of thirteen ? --That is my opinion, that the work could no go on without employing children from nine to twelve years of age. " And employing them the entire twelve hours ?—Yes. " Mr. Wakley—You mean that manufacture could not go on for the same number of hours, but you do not mean that the manufacture would be stopped altogether, if no children were employed under the legal age ? —I mean that the mills wouln be stopped." That, then, was the case so far as Glasgow was concerned. The wit nesses proved that the law had been distinctly violated in Glasgow, that it could net be carried out—(Hear) —that the mills would have been stopped—and that if children under thirteen years of age had not been employed, the machinery sheuld have been stopped. The case as to Manchester was proved by John Doherty, as intelligent and as highly educated as any man could be expected to be, and a great agitator, too, for a Ten Hours' Bill. Ha was one of the leading men for many years amongst them who agitated on that subject. He was also secretary t o his Union. In page 266 he gave this testimony : " Mr. O'Connell—Has the mode in which the Act has been enforced been burdensome to the operative? —Exceedingly so. "In what way ?—To the spinner it has been exceedingly 30 to the amount of several shillings a week in his wages. " Describe how?—When the factory workers all came and left the mill together, the difficulty was not so great in getting a sufficient num. her of children to attend to the work ; but since that has happened the spinner is anxious to get children old enough to continue the total num. ber of hours, so that he might not be subjected to the inconvenience of changing ; that has lessened the number of children iti the cotton. mills, and turned them into the silk-mills : and the consequence has been that children who were receiving 2s. 2d. a week are now receiving 4s. S., and in proportion to the other piecers ; the older piecers have not increased. " You said the Act had been disobeyed ?—Yes it has. " In what respect only has it been disobeyed ?—ln respect to all its provisions, but snore particularly as to the eight-hour workers. " Then instead of only being worked eight hours, the chilrdren who cught to w or k on ly e i g ht hours arc worked twe lve or thirteen. —Yes, by the aid of certificates from the surgeons, or connivance, or something ofthat kind ; sometimes the connivance of the surgeon, the parent, and the employer." In fact any legislation on that subject which affected the adult was con. trary to the doctrines of sound policy. He would admit the propriety of legislating for the protection of persons not of age, fur that was sanctioned by constitutional law, but adults should be left to their own guidance as to the manner in which they may think fit to dispose of their labour. It was very difficult for any Legislature to interfere between parents and children. The Legislature, it was true, had a legal right ; but then a stronger right—a natural right— existed in parents; and the heart of the mother must be hard indeed if her feeling towards her own child was not stronger than—he would not say the affected, he would admit it to be real— feelings of those who advocated the cause of the factory children in that house. What the mother who suckled her own child I Oh, aas it not frightful to think that circumstances should render it necessary to legislate for the purpose of protecting the child against its own mother ? Surely poverty must have made the hearts of such mothers as hard as their hands, if such legislation was necessary:—(Hear.) There was one way of obviating these evils. Would the advocates of humanity do one thing ? Would they give bread cheap ? He heard with admiration the speech of the Noble Lord who had opened the debate. Ile admired his talent, and he respected his humanity; but he had hoped that the speech would have ended with some proposition practically beneficial. The Noble Lord should have ended by moving that the tax on coin be done away with.—(Cheers from the Radical section.) He respected the Noble Lord, but he did not think much of the humanity which only looked to the class who made bread dear.—(Renewed cheers.) Let the Noble Lord propose the repeal of the Corn Laws.—(Repeated cheers.) A penny reduction in the loaf would save half an hour's labour per diem to every factory child. He was glad that the question had been brought forward. He was glad of the doleful wall en behalf of the factory children.—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh.") He admitted that there was cause for interference on the part of the Legislature ; but he would at the same time say that the Act of Parliament could not be worked out. It never could be worked out but by a great increase of the inspectors. He had heard much of the proceedings of magistrates. Ile never was much in love with time Irish magistracy, although he was himself one of them ; but, as the case was shown to-night, they were not quite so bad as the English. Ile never heard of one of them en tertaining a charge against his own son. By whom had that magistrate been appointed ? He must surely be a rank Whig ?—(Laughter.) It a revision of the magistracy should take place, every magistrate should be dismiseed against whom such a case could he proved.—(Hear, hear.) When the Bill was before the House he (Mr. O'Connell) refused to assent to it, without an assurance that there should be a sufficiency of inspectors to carry it into effect. Upon that understanding he voted for it ; and he would now say, either repeal the Bill or allow a sufli. of inspectors ciency to carry it into effect. It appeared to him that the cry with respect to f actor y children was.a mere make-believe. The real object er f v o i %y Salford,vu • a was to,,pirtoheii there c a . r flours' became him, and which lie' MlL—M eat ) The Hon. equally became— (Laughter)—liad admitted this. Now it should be remembered that the cotton trade had made the greatest addition to the resources of this country. Indeed it was very questionable whether without it we could have borne the burthen of the National Debt. What it had achieved for the country in the way of commercial advantage was incalculable,; and who was there who would say that it was not likely to effect as much more. We, however, were beginning to have competitors in Belgium, France, l'russia, and Switzerland, and when the bloody scenes now enacting in Spain and Portugal should happily cease, we were likely to find new rivals, who would grow the cotton in one instance and turn it into cloth iti another. What wise statesman, then, would propose to restrict the labaur of the artizau in this country to ten hours ? Would twelve hours' labour enable him tO c.Siripctf with the Belgian, who had cheap bread? Ne. The interference with, the labour of the artizan at Manchester, so far from serving his children, Would retince thent td starvation; and bring the owner of the manu. itztoty to the workhouse—(Deaf, hear, heat.) Capital would Migrate to where it would find employment. They might as well at. tempt to confine steam as to confine capital. It had light aerial wings, and any attempt to confine or fetter it by legislation, would only hate the effect of making it fly off, and settle down where it could find cheap bread.— (Hear, hear.) He was not less humane than others. He was desirous of doing all in his power to advance the public good, but he would not attemp to do so under any delusion. He admitted that fathe'..*s and mothers ought to be prevented from permitting their children to over labour, but then the inducement to make them labour, by keeping dear bread, ought to be done away with. If the object was to procure a Ten Hours' Bill, let the object be avowed—(Hear, hear)—and let Hon. Members say whether, in the teeth of foreign competition, they were prepared to restrict by legislation the labour of adults.—(Hear, hear.) The British peop'e claimed common sense as their peculiar at. tribute; they left the lighter graces and more polished characteristics to other nations. Was it in keeping with their character of common sense —was it not ludicrous, under an affectation of morbid humanity—to do that which must ultimately starve the operatives, and make the menu. facturers beggars?—(Cheers.) Mr. BENETT wondered that no danger was apprehended from the too great increase of our cotton factories. The distress of the hand loom weavers who had been thrown out of employment ought to have induced such a fear. With respect to the vulgar clamour against Corn Laws, in which he was sorry to find the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin join, he should remind the House that any injury done to the agricultural interest would be most injurious to the home trade. Opening the ports to foreisn corn would have the effect of reducing wages to the lowest standard, and would be of no advantage to the operative classes. He had himself a deep personal interest in the agri cultural prosperity of the country, yet he would at once abandon the Corn Laws if he thought, in doing so, he could benefit the labouring classes; but he would not sacrifice the health of those classes for any amount of wealth, however large.—(Hear.) Sir R. H. INGLIS regretted that any attempt should be made to divert a question of Christian humanity into any other channels He denied that they attempted to legislate for adults. They wished to legislate for those who were not free agents, and who therefore needed protection. By the confession of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, who appeared in this case to be the leading counsel both for the Government and the millowners, the present did not prove effec. tive, nor was it likely to prove so. His Noble Friend who brought for. ward this question was at the head of a large party— (Ironical cheers from the Ministerial Benches)—not, however, as that cheer seemed to imply, for his own benefit, but for the benefit of those whose cause he advocated. Lord J. RUSSELL said that this year, for the first time, it was evi dent that the question was considered with a view as to whether party advantage would not be derived from its discussion.—(Ministerial cheers.) If he had any doubt—and he confessed he had considerable doubts—whether amongst the several Bills which, from the pressure of public business, it was thought necessary to renounce, this should not be one of the first; that evening's discussion had convinced him that it would be highly inexpedient, in the month of July, to renounce other Bills for the purpose of bringing forward one relating to factories.— (Hear, hear.) Enough had occurred in the course of the . evening to prove to him that if the Bill which it was intended to bring in had been introduced, though it was only an explanatory measure to clear up and carry Into effect other enactments, it could not have been so introduced without creating great collision of opinion both upon one side of the House and upon the other. The House had heard the opinion of the Hon. Member for Salford—an opinion in which he was supported by other Hon. Members—that the hours of labour ought to be fixed, and the manufacturers ought not to be allowed to extend the time, even with the consent of the labourers, but be bound down to a certain time.—(Hear, hear.) That was one view of the case taken by one party. Another opinion had been expressed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, who contended that all legislative in terference with the regulation of hours of labour must necessarily fail to produce any beneficial results, and would only counteract the na tural tendency to adjust itself. Another question had also been brought into discussion which had beets deprecated by the lion. Mem. ber for Wiltshire, and the Right Hon. Member for the University of Oxford, namely, the question of the Corn-laws, which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin insisted should be repealed if the hours of labour were restricted.—(Cheers.) If, as the Hon. Member for Sal ford would have it, a Ten Hours' Bill was agreed to, did he not know the difficulty there would be in competing with those countries where the Sovereign could say, " Come here, and you shall have unrestricted hours, and bread as cheap as it can possibly be obtained." The Hon. Member for Dublin further argued that if the proposition of the Noble Lord opposite (Ashley) were agreed to it would send the manufacturers out of the country, and then there would be the complaint, not that the opera. tives were worked beyond their strength and sinew, but that they would be reduced to the most miserable state of distress, not having a particle of bread to eat. If this should prove to be the case—if the hours of labour were restricted, if capital departed, and if there were no employ. ment for labour, could the Corn-laws be continued ; could bread be denied to the starving poor at as cheap a rate as it could be procured in other countries ?—(Hear, hear.) The question of the Factory laws evi dently involved others of the most vital importance; and it was too hard, on the 20th of July, to call for what was virtually a censure upon the 230 Members of the House who thought the measure ought not to be discussed this session. The debate clearly proved that the Bill which it was intended to introduce, though only a measure of regulation, could not be brought forward without the introduction of other questions so grave and important that he would prefer, at the present period of the session, suffering the law to remain as it was than to raise these questions.—(Hear, hear.) The object of the Factory Act was on the one hand to regulate the labour of the factory children, and on the other to take care that there should be no stoppage of employment, by which alone both children and parents would be enabled to procure bread. He was ready, if time permitted, to press forward a Bill to make the Act more perfect ; but he did not expect to be able altogether to prevent a violation of the Act any more than he could hope to prevent poaching by the Game Laws, smuggling by the Revenue Laws, or mal practices at elections by the Bribery Acts.—(Hear, hear.) As these laws were constantly violated, so also would be the Factory Act, so long as the desire of profit, on the one hand, and of bread on the other, should tempt the violation. One thing had been alluded to on which there was much misrepreseptation. The Noble Lord admitted that the Inspectors had exhibited great seal, and that any violations of the law arose more out of want of power than want of vigilance. The reference made to Mr. Horner required some explanation. The real state of the case was this :—by the present law there were no means of ascertaining exactly the ages of children. The Act required certificates as to the ages of nine and thirteen, but it did not specify the mode of ascertaining it. Mr. Horner knew that there were many violations of the law. He knew that many children were stated to be thirteen years old when they were in reality under that age, and, being anxious to carry out the spirit of the law, he gave directions that it was not sufficient to have the years, but that care should be taken to see whether the strength and general appearance accorded with the statement. Now, the Noble Lord had omitted to mention this.— (Ministerial cheers.) The Noble Lord had quoted that part of the direction which said " abstain from qnestioning as to age," but then he stopped short in the middle of the sentence : the passage went on to say, " for the true answer will probably not be given, and the reply will be more calculated to mislead than to assist." Mr. Homer knew that the statement of the child would often be fallacious, but he directed the surgeon to look to the general strength and appearance.—(Ministe rial cheers.) He admitted that Mr. Horner had committed an error of great magnitude. He said in his directions that physical strength rather than the actual age was the thing to be ascertained. Theg, though the child might be thirteen years of age, still, if its developement proved weak or imperfect so as to give it only the appearance of twelve, that twelve should be the age set down in the certificate. On the other hand, if the age were given as only twelve, and that the developements were equal to thirteen, the certificate would be given for the latter age.—(Opposi tion cheers.) Still, if the directions of Mr. Horner were taken altoge ther, it would be seen that he was most anxious that the spirit of the Act should be carried out. A memorial had been forwarded to him (Lord J. Russell) stating that children under thirteen years of age had been employed for a longer period than was warranted by the Act. He at once applied to the law officers on the subject, and they gave it as their opinion that under no circumstances should a child under thirteen years receive the thirteen years' certificate. The error was pointed out first, instructions were given, and these instructions were strictly adhered to.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (Ashley) appeared to take to him. self the glory of this ; and if the Noble Lord was so satisfied with him. self, he (Lord J. Russell) would not deprive him of the advantage. Whether the honour belonged to the Noble Lord or not, the view which he gave to the House of the conduct of Mr. Homer was anything but fair.—(Ministerial cheers.) The same spirit pervaded the whole of the Lord's statement. He took particular passages and dwelt upon them, for the purpose of showing that the law had been violated.— (Hear, hear.) He (Lord John Russell) admitted that the law had been violated, but even admitting this, let the House reflect upon the im provement which had been consequent upon the law. The Noble Lord himself testified as to the vigilance of the inspectors, and as to their wish to do justice. The inspectors thought the law might be made more clear and more effective to reach the persons of those who con. tumaciously persisted in violating the law. He (Lord John Russell) agreed this could be effected, but when a Bill was to be proposed for this purpose they should have to weigh between the two extreme opinions, namely, whether the labour of adults should be legislated for as well as the labour of children, , and the other equally important question, whether they should or should not legislate at all on the subject.— (Hear, hear, hear.) He hoped the House would not come to a resolution such as that proposed by the Noble Lord. The adoption of the resolution would be a most ridiculous termi nation to the labours of the Session, and he hoped that the House would not think of agreeing to it.—(Hear.) Several most important Bills were subject to be postponed, the Quarter Sessions Bill for instance, which had been postponed at a great inconvenience ; yet it could not be avoided in consequence of the period of the Session. There are many persons now in prison who would only be confined four or five weeks if that Bill passed, and who in consequence of its postponment will be now confined six weeks, or in some cases two months. This was a Bill which they were most anxious to pass, and yet it had been una voidably postponed. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny who had taken a good deal of interest in the Bill, might just as well now stand up and blame him (Lord J. Russell) for not having introduced and passed it as the Noble Lord opposite, and he would be as justified in attributing blame to him. Mr. GOULBURN said the conduct of the Government alone gave rise to the motion of his Noble Friend. It was a motion to carry into effect the principle which the Legislature had already acknowledged and acquiesced in. If this opportunity were taken to discuss the subject it was not to his Noble Friend that it should be attributed, but to those who prevented the introduction of the subject at an earlier period.— (Hear, hear) The objection of the Noble Lord opposite to the resolu. Lion, if it held good, would apply to every other interference for the purpose of improvement in legislation as well as to that, if it could be maintained, but he (Mr. Goulburn) denied its application. The Noble Lord, in explaining the reasons which had induced him to postpone the Bill, had stated that during the session much time had been consumed in debating at length subjects of no great' importance, and amongst others he had quoted the ease of the Roxburghshire election petition, which had been so fully debated in that House. Who was it, he would ask, who prolonged unnecessarily the debate upon that question for two separate nights to serve their own purposes ? The Hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Noble Lord sad that was a subject on which party feeling should not be directed or brought to bear. lie (Mr. Goulburn) fully concurred in this view ; he was not anxious to have it made a party question, his only wish was to protect the children elnpleyed in the factories—to afford them that defence which, from their tender age, they could not enforce for them. selves. When Sir Robert Peel and the lion. Member for Nottingham first brought forward the subject, it had not been looked upon as a party question, higher motives were attributed to them, and he could not now listen to the charge, that it was introduced for a party purpose, without offering his forcible dissent from that allegation. How could this charge be borne out ? The facts of the case furnished the most conclusive evi. deuce, if such were required, that it was brought forward for no other purpose than that which it avowed, namely, to give additional force to the laws already in existence, but which had been proved to have been ineffectual for the attainment of the purpose for which they had been framed. When his Noble Friend had first introduced the subject, so far was he from considering it in the light of a party question that he rested satisfied with the promise of the Goveimment that they would introduce a Bill upon the subject, and it was only in consequence of their not having fulfilled that promise that he now brought forward his motion. His Noble Friend had asked no mere when the Govern ment had offered to take it out of his hands until he saw the abandon ment of the measure, and then he thought it was time to take it up. No one who had an interest in that important subject could avoid feel ing sorrow and regret that it should have been taken from the Noble Lord by the Government, who, from the course which had been pursued, appeared to have adopted it only to is destruction. It was a subject of too Much importance to be allowed to drop in that to the certificate of Cie surgeon, many cases hart occurred In which manufacturers•, being magisratt s, countersietlbd their certificates fee their own factory children, and it was riot uncommon for litstites, who were mill owners, to reciprocate this conduct, signing the cer tificates for each other." Cases had occurred of 3i.aglstratts deciding as to their own sons, and tenants, and ',heir own 'Miller's; in every such case the penalty nwarded being the very lowest authorized by the Act. And now let the House b'ar in mind that this state of things had arisen almost en!lrely from the practices introduced by this Act. He had be. fare hir.t a case takrii from the report of convictions, and there were tentir.men in the House who could contradict him if he were wrong. On the 10th De, ember, 1536, an information was laid agaimt a certain taillowner. Tne resistance to it, and the manner in which it was met lay the magistrates, appeared to Mr. Horner to be so flagrant, that he made it the subject of a special report. There were many charges of which he had selected three. The first was that of em- ploying 29 children for more than nine hours a day; the second for employing children without Surgeons' certificates ; the third for em Marine's'. The Noble Lord had, in imitation of the Honourable Wainer fof Dublin, endeavoured to attradt their attention to ether .e S. kW tern it away fro in the main question, dreg from the sub ,l digtlgOnn but he would not enter into Chase topics, subies jects really une. -ertal4 , , He would adhere to the stiteleet be fit' they were not of imp. , ttle sees nearly an insuperable difte fore ihem. It had been said tie't ti eent Chet from the nature of the ctilty in legislating upon this qu estion, contracts, the ]Acv would be, to a certain extent, ieererative. His No ble Friend, and those who supported his motion, had tkeiutention of going the length of interfering between employers and adults ; those lat ter were able td take care of their own interests, they were at an C$ e sufficiently advarieed td prated thentseives ; but it was to the childrn of a tender age, who were tinkle to Make any attempt at defending their men fights, that they sought to haslet proteetion, ample protection,dex teneled,—(Heat, hear.) They wanted le prevent those young children from being etrlplOyeet In Work which was be}' their capacity, Ito taskssae• them from the torture shed tabdur which the in fl iction of sue .n i terte,e necessarily produced. It Was elorrinetent for the House to in this case—nay, more, they were t: Shed upon to do so. lie ot ( i i r. Goulburn) was not patting to them a case Moiled upon high-wr ge d t feelings of humanity. The feelings which actuate!'l this motion were feelings which were participated in by those who h ad , hose that supporte the superintendence of the practical details of the factory sys'tem, "n ) w ere acquainted with all its operations, and thorough l y conversant um the manufactures and the manufacturing districts. Those evils which were proved to exist by documents before the House, they were called upon to alleviate. The Honourable Member for Salford had said that the children required to be protected from the consequences of overwork. ing. That would be concurred in by every Hon. Member in that House, and as it was their duty to take such steps as would ensure this pro. tection. Who first submitted the subject of the labour of children in factories to the House? Sir Robert Peel, who stated with all the clearness and ability which characterises him the circumstances which called for their interference, in order to protect those who, from their age and situation, were unable to protect themselves. Since that period, when the Right Hon. Baronet had brought the case of factory apprentices before the House, up to the present time, it had been frequently admitted that there existed a pressing necessity for legislation upon the subject, and those who were most forward in in teresting themselves to procure an amelioration of the condition in which the children were placed were not deemed liable to the charge of wishing to curb the advancement of machinery or the progress of manufacturers. The question now was not solely whether they were to extend protection to the defenceless children and obtain a termina tion of thenumerous evils resulting from their employment for a number of hours exceeding that which in justice should be the limit of their labour. There was another question, and as the case now stands a more important one, namely, were they to allow the law which was now in existence, having for its purpose the protection of these children, to remain a dead letter, or were they to strengthen it in its operation by the enactment of an additional law, which all those who had been examined had proved was imperatively called for ? The present law was inadequate. That had been admitted by the Noble Lord the Secretary of State; its penalties were not sufficiently high in amount to deter persons from offending against it. Were they, then, to permit the law to remain inoperative, or to take those measures which would secure its operation ? Was the law to be permitted to remain a dead letter ? He had no hesitation in saying it would be better they repealed it, than thus allow it to become obsolete. Surely it was not unreasonable in those who asked for those measures that would ensure its effectual operation. The Noble Lord opposite had, however, said that the law would not be effectual in all cases ; that there were circumstances when the breaches of the law or offences against it could not be brought within its jurisdiction. That the game laws, for instance, were not sufficient totally to effect their object, and that offences against them were still common notwithstanding all their legislation; that many other offences still continued in defiance of the most strenuous efforts of legislation which was not able to effect their total suppression. Was ever any thing so extraordinary heard from any one? Would the Noble Lord tell the House, be cause the law had been violated in many instances that they were therefore to abstain from strengthening and supporting it ? And was this doctrine to come from the Secretary of State, who, above all men, was understood to have the especial care of the administration of the law ?—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) He (Mr. Goulburn) was aware that so far was that objection of the Noble Lord applied to the case under discussion there were offences against the law to an enormous extent; that there was a systematical opposition to it—that the law, from its inefficiency, had in many cases defeated itself; but if he was aware of all this, ittended to convince him how necessary it was to adopt some additional measures to put an end to a systematised opposi tion to the law, a state of things which ought not to be permitted in any country priding itself upon its legislation. They ought to get rid of the law altogether, or add to it that support which it required. The Government had said, indeed, that next session of Parliament they would take up this subject, and he (Mr. Goulburn) would perhaps cre dit them had he not experience of what their former promises had been. —(Cheers.) He cordially supported the motion of his Noble Friend, because he felt that it was calculated to insure, next session, a mea sure which would have the effect of remedying the defects in the exist ing law. Mr. HUME thought that if any doubt as to this being brought for. ward for party purposes had existed previously, the speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman would have the effect of completely removing it. The Right Honourable Gentleman had, indeed, avowed as much. He had admitted that he came forward to cast blame upon the Government. He pitied them that they had no other means of annoying the Govern ment than the factory question. For his part be was glad when he as. certained that the Bill had been dropped. He had opposed it at first. He had told the Noble Lord that if it could be possibly carried, its effect would be to ruin the manufacturing districts, and that instead of serving it would have the effect of seriously oppressing the factory children. The Hon. Member for Salford had truly said it was worse than useless. It would be impossible to carry out the would be impracticable, if they wished to allow the manufacturers to continue, or the labourers to have bread to eat. The Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) appeared to think that the Noble Lord at that side of the House (Lord John Russell) was to blame for not having introduced and carried through the Bill; if that were the fact, he had a greater right to blame him for not having brought forward the County Courts Bill. Every tenth day since the Session had commenced he had asked about it, and after all the promises of the Noble Lord it had not as yet been passed. But the Right Hon. Baronet oppo site had himself evinced an anxiety to have other business postponed, and other Bills dropped, although he was now so anxious to blame the Government for a similar course upon this Bill. If it had been brought on he should have opposed it, for he considered it opposed to the laws of nature. He agreed with the Hon. Member for Dublin that the incen. sistency of Hon. Gentiemen upon this subject was quite revolting. —(Laughter.) It was a serious thing to interferere with the tender off. spring of men or brutes.—(Great laughter.) It was a delicate matter to interfere between children and their mothers. The real question was the corn-laws, for they produced nearly all the evils that were attri buted to the factory system ; and if those gentlemen were anxious to improve the condition of the people in the manufacturing districts they should look to the corn-laws. It was the pressure of the corn.laws which gentlemen opposite supported, that obliged persons to work in English factories for twelve, thirteen, or fourteen hours, whilst in similar establishments upon the Continent they only worked for ten hours. The prices of corn on the Continent were far lower than in England. In Berlin, and in Prussia, corn was much cheaper.—(Loud and continued laughter.) Some Hon. Members appeared as if they did not know where Berlin was situated, they were so ready to laugh. The Hon. Member here read a return of the prices of corn at Berlin, Ham burg, Antwerp, Stettin, and Amsterdam, and continued to say, the average price of corn on the Continent was 435. 4d., whilst the average price in England was 70 shillings to 71 shillings and sixpence. It was by removing the causes of this high price of corn that they would support the interest of the manufacturers by enabling them to obtain cheap bread. The best way to increase the power of this eountry, was by en couraging its manufactures. Poland was as fertile a country as Eng land, but she was not so great, because she had not manufactures. He thought that the Bill, if introduced, would be injurious to the menu. facturing interests, and as such he should oppose it. He was strongly of opinion that this subject was brought forward for party purposes, and he hoped the House would concur in opinion with him, and negative the motion. Mr. AGLIONBY would not advocate any interference between the masters and the adults, but it was upon the part of the children they were called upon to legislate; and a feeling of the necessity of affording them protection, induced him to give the vote he intended. If the votes in support of the motion were to be reckoned a vote of censure he could not help it, for he felt bound in justice to support any motion calculated to induce the enactment of a law which would be sufficient to render the existing law effective. Mr. FIELDEN, who was almost wholly inaudible in the gallery, supported the motion. The Hon. Member was understood to say that the Government did not dare to execute the law for the regulation of factory labour for, fear of the master manufacturer's influence against them. He also added, that if a Ten Hours' Bill had been originally passed, the entire question would have been long since set at rest. It was one of the strongest signs of the weakness which the Government could exhibit to decline to entertain the subject. Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply to the charge of the Hon. Members that the Government dared not execute the law in respect to the Factory Regulation Act could tell him that he was quite mistaken ; and lie could also assure him that they dared execute that or any other law which existed in the statute books of the country.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman should also know that if threats were used against those in trusted with the execution of the laws, there were others in the House who would protect them.—(Hear.) Mr. FIELDEN argued that the Government dared not execute the law, because, notwithstanding its repeated infringement, they had not hitherto done so. Mr. M. PHILIPS said that the interpretation put on the words of the Noble Lord were not by any means fair or candid. The Noble Lord had only justified the Government in not carrying the law in question into effect, on the grounds that every other law was, in a greater or lesser degree, infringed on likewise. An injustice had been also done to his Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, when he was taxed with countenancing a breach of duty on the part of the face tory inspectors. He (Mr. Philips) should never be found attempting to justify in the slightest degree the infringement of the factory Lew by the masters; but he felt bound to say that the cupidity of parents was in most cases as much to blame as the cupidity of the manufacturers. He thought the present Session was not the best time for introducing any measure on the subject, inasmuch as it necessarily involved many other questions, such as national education, the Corn Laws, &c , before it could be satisfactorily settled ; but he hoped that one would be intro duced in the next Session, and he should then give it his beat considera tion. The Noble Lord opposite had used very strong language in refe rence to the manufacturers— he had termed them" merciless," " grasp. ing," "griping," and so on. Did the Noble Lord mean to apply those terms generally to that large body of men ? Lord ASH LEY—No, no. Mr. PHILIPS—Or did he only mean to give them an individual ap plication ? There were as many honourable and high.minded men in that class of ° the community as in any other whatever ; and who, for humanity and every other virtue, as little deserved the opprobrious stigma cast upon them by the Noble Lord, as any men in the commu nity. With respect to the general question, there were a great many difficulties to contend with, not the least of which was the anxiety of parents to make their children older than they really were; and the House should take them all into consideration before it pronounced upon the subject, or acquiesced in the motion of the Noble Lord. Sir C. KNIGIITLEY, in reference to the observations of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny respecting the difference between the price of corn at Hamburg!), and generally on the Continent and the price of corn in England, begged to say that the comparison sought to be established by the Honourable Member's inference was quite invidious. When the Honourable Member was prepared to prove that the rate of wages in England was not double the rate of wages in those countries, he (Sir C. Knightley) should admit the force of his argument, but not until then. If the Honourable Member succeeded in showing him that the rate of wages in Ilarnburgh was equal to the rate of wages in England, while in the latter country corn was double the price that it was in the former, he (Sir C. Knightley) should do for once, in respect of the Corn-laws, what he had never yet done in his life-time—vote with the lion. Member for Kilkenny.—(Laughter.) Sir C. GREY opposed the motion of the Noble Lord on the ground that it was unprecedented—a perfect novelty to the Constitution, and an infringement of the privileges of the House and the rights of indi vidual Members. On these grounds, without entering into the details of the general question before the House, he should feel it his duty to vote against it. • Lord ASHLEY was aware that he was not, by the forms of debate, entitled to a reply, but he craved the indulgence of the House to answer one or two observations of the Noble Lord opposite. He understood, for he was not present at the time, that the Noble Lord had said the question had now become a party question, and that it had been brought forward in a party spirit. Of course that involved a serious charg e against him (Lord Ashley) that he had suffered a great questio n i • volving the rights of humanity to be perverted into an instrinnent to work out a mere party purpose.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Lord Ashley) might be allowed to say that such assertions were more easily preferred than proved—(Hear)—and to assme the Noble Loyd flint he considered the ini.i)ect involved in the question of too high rind too sacred a character to be made an instrument for the purposes • -• _ , - ()fairy paity.—(llear, hear.) Ile jLord Ashley) had undertaken the heavy' resoonsibility attaching to its charge from motives far higher than thwe which actuated partisans ill }general; and those motives he should adhere to while he had the pow er of urging the subject on ftie Attention o( the Le:islature.—(Hear, hear.) And he might be permitted further add, that no change which could by any possi bility whatever take piece in the position or the Noble Lord opposite towards him and his friends, should have the effect of altering his fixed and uniform course of proceeding in regard to this question.—(Hear.) It had been objected to him that he used strong language in his advo cacy of the question—if he did, he applied it only to the actions and not to the motives of those iso'ividuals to whom he %v.'s under the necessity of alluding. The Noble Lo-d had charged him with making unfair se lections from the reports of Oe inspectors in support of his case; to this lie (Lord Ashley) could on': answer that he took them as he found them, and if they made against the `se who were charged with the exe. cution of the law it was not his fault but theirs. Mr. WALL ACE rose to order. ',"he Noble Lord had. taken a privi. lege which had been more than once c'enied to him (Mr. Wallace) and many other Hon. Members in simila..• circumstances--that of reply. He, therefore, called on the Speaker to k - now by what right, or why, the Noble Lori claimed and exercised that p rivilege ? Lord ASHLEY would save the Speaker the trouble of pronouncing oil the question by waiving the further ex, srcise of the permission which the [louse had tacitly conceded to him. But he would stand on his right to rcply to the question of the Hon. M,ernber for Manchester ? In answer to that Hon. Member's intersogatory h e should say that in using the words adverted to by him, he (Lord Aside) *) had no intention what. ever of employing them g enerall y . He did not by any means wish to s only against whom be understood to condemn t he bod y of manufactu. rers, many of whom he b e lieved to be a blessing to t he countr y , but Om a ll eg ations had been specifically m a de, and distinct, ly proved in the re ports on the subject. formed as to what Rus- Lord J. RUSSELL said the Noble Lord was milin (Lord John he (Lord J. Russell) had sa id res p ectin g him. H.e sell) had given the Noble Lor d credit for the purest mo ti. . the mode in ves of humanity in bringing forward the questio n ; bat he said that, frc'm one who which it had been brought forw ard on a former occasion, Ito i lea part y looked at it could fail to concl ude that it hid been ta question. The House then divided— For the original motion l2l Against it Majority against the amendment -15 SUPPLY. The House then resolved itself into a Committee cf Supply. COMMISSIONS. Colonel SIBTHORP then brought forward his motion for a Select Committee to inquire into the various Commissions that have been issued since 1830 to the present time or period at which the return might be dated. The Hort. and Gallant Member said it was a question of public justice, for that two millions of money had been squandered away upon useless Commissions which not alone produced no good to the country, but created, on the contrary, the greatest dissatisfaction. All he asked for was a fair and impartial inquiry into the subject. Mr. BERNAL begged leave to inform the Hon. Member that the House was then in Committee, and that he could not put his motion. The Hon. Member sat down. Lord J. RUSSEEL rose and said that, as the Lords' Amendments to the Irish Poor Law Bill were of considerable importance he should propose to consider them on Tuesday, instead of delaying them till Thursday, as was originally proposed. He propost'd to take the subject of railways to-morrow, on Monday the Irish Tithe Bill, and afterwards, if time permitted, the registration of elector!. 00 concluded by moving the third reading of the Public Roads Bill, which was accordingly read a third time and passed. Mr. STEWART brought up the report on the Customs Act, which was unanimously agreed to. SUPPLY—POOR -LAW COMMISSION. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed the further consideration of a resolution (postponed on the 2d of July), grantlOS 24,2521. to defray the expences of the Poor-law Commission. On the motion that the resolution be read a second time, Mr. GRIMSDITCH opposed the grant on the ground of its extra vagance, and the perfect uselessness of many of the appointments. The Commission was increasing every year, and he called attention to the fact that three commissioners, three secretaries, all barristers, and twenty-one assistant commissioners were allowed 40,0001. amongst them ; that 5,0 00 /. was expe nded for law, and 4,0001. for stationers' . He thought it too bad that the commissioners should receive 7001. year salary, and 800/. a year more in the shape of travelling expenses. However, he would not now make any motion on the subject, but would seriously recommend to the Right Hon. Gentleman to reflect on the ne." cessity of economising on this head, considCring how signally the labour s of she commissioners had failed. Colonel SIBTHORP declared his intention of resuming his opposi tion at a future stage. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEVCTER said, that as regarded the question of expence, all he could say was, that the Government 1 10 done all in their power to diminish it. The nest unions rendered th e expence indispensable, but although this Commission cost 40,000/. s' year, still it should not be forgotten that it had eat.4o:l a saving to S he public of two millions. The legal expences under the new system pen nothing like so great as under the old. Sir G. DOUGLAS submitted that such a discussion Ou.ght not to tare place in so thin a House. After a few words from Mr. GRIMSDITCH in reply, the resolntie° was read a second time. The Fisheries (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and passed. t . Mr. EMERSON TENNENT mo ved for leave to bring in a Bid „- continue the suspension of the operatio n of so much of an Act passed 1./ the sixth and seventh of William I V ., as p rohibits the holding licenses for the sale of spirits by retail grocers in Ireland. t he Lord MORPETH said that he would not offer an y o pp osition to motion. te The motion was agreed to, the Bill read a first time, and or d e r e d be read a second time on Monday. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of. Adjourne d Half-past One o'Clock. MARKET IN TELLIGENCE. DIED. 10 On the 15th inst., aged 21, Sophia, second daughter of . 1- ~ Esq., of Norwich. f C P On the 16th inst at Gravesend, Mr. George Hampton, ° d ~ I ,D i buay-circus, aged 45. On the. 18th inst., in Guildford-street, Russell-squared el (1° Anne, relict of Wm. Moore, Esq., of Doctors '- commons, as of daughter of the late Sir C. Price, Bart. fstl - ' On the 16th inst ., Richard Cartwright M'Adan3 3 , ef t North -end, F u lh am , age d 31. A WM . l b On the 17th i ns t., in Pelham-crescent, Bromptoot - , cti ell . t " Davis, M.D., f orme rly on the Bombay Medical Establisn - o f ty London . Printed and Published by MURDO YOUPIT e 00 . 112, Strand, at The Sues Ofice, No, 112, Strand, in tu of Middosex.—Saturday, July 21, 183 S. 4 / (From the New London Price Current of last Evening.) ie t SUGAR.—The British Plantation Market has presented . very , Pt e , aspect since our last; brown and low yellow sorts, with which the nor'" is plentifully supplied, have been sold at a reduction on previous rsr._ ° ,, eo Is ; for the better kinds at and above 58 s a decline of 6tl h a s also u' lo accepted; at auction 250 hhds. Barbadoes have bee n offered, lvn,, brought previous rates, fine sold at 62 s 6 d to 635, g ood 615 6d to .; mid 59s 6d to 61s, ord 57s 6 d to 585 6 d ; b y p rivate contract bron qualitites have been sold at 49s to 51s, mid yellow 52s 6d to 575, of 58s to 595, fine 60s to Gls ; the latte r is now the hi g hest point nr Market for Muscovades. tb i° The Refined market has presented a very lively appearance or week; the grocers have purchased very freely of all description!_eo goods, paying an advance of Is; Lumps rather under the standard 17,4 brought 755, and those passing 76: to 76s 6d. For shipping there . 0 , several orders here for double Crushed at 34 5. For delivery its SO ° ber and October there have been several offers made at 335 6d. 0 1 MAXIMUM—YeIIow kinds 6d. per cwt. ; the rates obti ll o ol were as follows, low mid. grey with strength, 51s • to 52 5 , gad, b6s 6d, fine yellow 58s, good mid. and good 54s 6d to 56 0 4, ordinary It Is to 52s ; good and fine brown, 49s to 59s ; ver y ordin : o 465; about 1,000 bags of ordinary were taken in at 47s to 481. to e stock is 47,053 bags heavier than it was last year at this period 1 .00 delivery has rather fallen off; since our last there been no aril 64; the better kinds of yellow sold rather dearer ; fine white, 635 a6s' good yellow, 57s 6d a 58s; the remainder taken in. red EAST-INDIA.—This afternoon the auctions were large, and cog ,- e f, of 11,370 bags Manilla and 2,109 bags Bengal ; the sound of the for which comprised the principal part of the sale, were taken in at Preitopl rates, good bright yellow at 22s to 22s 6d, fine 23s to 23s 6d, dS od and damaged sold at their full value, the former at 18s 6d to 215 6d ' p d, the latter at 19s 6d to 20s; for the Bengal there was a steady den - 0 and nearly all were sold at previous rates, low mid and good Whi le 50s 6d to 6ls, fine 625 to G3s 6d ; some piles were withdrawn• MOLASSES.—West India have secured a fair sale at previous 1- tdl St. Vincents of good quality yeilding 2.6 s 6d to 27s per cwt. (1 15°e Come.—This afternoon there was no public sale of East lrt est Foreign. Of West India 57 casks 20 barrels and 58 bags were bro7o forward, and sold readily at the rates previously established. Jae' iotr 'aid at 112 s to 1 12s Gd, pea berry 1255; unclean Dutch good ord t° mid 85s to 1035 6d. d 143 Cocos.—There has been a steady demand for West _lndia, en oit tags at public sale sold at an advance of Is to 2s, ordivary en d or brought 40s to 47s Gd. For auction on Tuesday 140 barvels 2 50 Trinidad are declared. In Foreign there is still nothing doirle• b sSe TALLow.—The purchases for delivery in the last three mont lo ,4l , been trivial at 45s 9d per cwt. The advices from St. Petell'incso quote prices at 129 to 130 roubles, but there was not much PO doing. b til fa ; Co rroN.—lmporters continu e t o re qoire fully previous rates, - ° ,.Ap , East India and American, th e d eman d, however, has been lim it private treaty, and none has been offered at Auction. TEA.—The public sales have concluded. The prices show ade 00 0 as compared with April, on C an t on B o h ea of 211 per Ib, co rn odt Congous lid, fine Congous 2d to 4d, Souchongs t ° ar Capers 2d, Pekoe 3d to Gd, T wan k a y s 3d to 4d per lb ; Or s t otd Pekoe has advanced from 3d to Gd per lb., th e su pply being sh°,., r t `otli the demand increasing ; Hysotis have ruled rather cheaper'' '' ‘ , o os Hyson is also lower, while Imperial and Gunpowder have advanee d ; 2d to 6d per lb. Since the sales the transactions have bean O te." in all descriptions at Id to lid per lb. profit. were, 7 INDI6O —Prices obtained are not quite so good as they cheaper; Kurpah has, however, sold briskly at 4d advance. 00 0 OuLs.—There has been only a limited business doing in the 0 1 % 0 0' kinds of Fish Oils this week ; the prices previously established hav e 010 ever been maintained. This afternoon 000 tuns Southern 5t P sale sold at easier rates, ord to fine quality at 2415 s to 271. per tun;_otte Setecs.—This afternoon, at aucion, 300 bags Pepper and r ' ail 0; pks East India Ginger were offered, t the former sold , a t stiffe,Or, from 3p a 33d; of the latter only a small part f ound bu y ers en "toer easier terms, good ord. Bengal went at 20s to 21s, Malabar worm)' in at 18s 6d to lOs Gd per cwt. n SALTPETRE.-There has been a steady demand for Rough. -ordl lists Refined a fair extent of business has been transacted At 0 11 : prices. This afternoon Rough continued in fair request, and 4,00 to Calcutta at auction were principally sold at pre v i ou s r a t e s, Calc il i o ;' fraction lit to l 3 at 03s, 91 at 20s Gd to 235, 5 to 5i at 23° 6d, 3 1 4 to 3 at 24s to 24s 6d per cwt. feCal Rice.—Bengal at 14s f o r lo w w hit e , an d 15 s to 15 % 6d This afternoon 807 bags Bengal at auction were taken in, or rather broken at lls 6d, but since sold at 12s per cwt. to P",‘ Rut, BRANDY, and lioLtstses.—For Rum there continor 4 t good demand, fine marks have brought an advance of ld to .' 1 ,00' 4 6 gallon. Brandy is held for previous rates, the d ema nd howeve r f fe," Imes limited at 3s 7d to 3s 8d for the fi rs t b ran d s o f th e v intage ° v e" in puns.—ln Geneva the purch a se s h ave b een t r i v i a l , price 22 mained firm.—British Corn Spirits are still lOs per gallon. PRIZE CUP S.—New and Second-hand Sli; e tid: PRIZE CUPS are offered at very Reduced Prices, and felero may be made from a great variety, both of Sizes and ret,,t e. T. COX SAVORY'S, Goldsmith, and Watchmaker, 47 , ti ,h .. ee t ;d London (Seven Doors from Gracechurch-street). A ,°" tt - e r, Drawings of Cups will be forwarded by post, as a single answer to a post-paid application. B 1 R TH S. f On the 14th inst., at Mull ac l oe , A r d ee , I re l an d, the Im ° o f 0. Beckett, Esq., of a son. ' On the 17th inst., th e lady of John Burges Watson , - 14 Manchester-street, of a son. " f On the 6th inst., a t H urst House Lancashire, t h e ladY ° lO Ol Rev. Philip Henry L ee, R ector of Stoke, Bruerne, North am shire, of a son.