The Sun. — London, England, 1808-02-25 00:00:00

t IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HObSE OE PEERS, WISDN9DAY, FED. 24. Heard Counsel in the Scotch Appeal, Crawford V. Patrick. . • The Bank Threellkon Loan tH claimed Dividend's Hill, Were read a second The; American Intercourse Bill went through a Committee..—Adjourned. HOUSE OF cat/Imams% ;WEDNESDAY, FEB. 24. .The'SPEAKER having taken the Chair, A person from the Pri vy Council Office presented, pursq,mt to ordpr, a Copy of the Memorial of Sir Home Popham, praying restoratiOn of the proceeds of the Ship L'Etrusco, seized, and condemned by the Court of Admiralty, some years ago, tbr contra band trade.—Ordered to lie on the table. A new Writ ] was ordered for the Elec. - lion of. a Member for Tiara, in the town of the Hon. Ed, ward Boscawen, ,now Lord Viscount Falmouth, called to the House of Peers. A Petit was presented from certain Parishioners of the rectory of Simonbourne, Northumberland, praying leave to' bring in a Bill tbr dividing the said Bettor" into several smaller Livings, now in the gift of the Governors of Greenwich Hospital.—Re terred to a Committee of the Members serving fur Northumbt:gland. 1:1 z. presented a Petition from the Tin ners of the City of London and Comity of Alidd:e sex, praying a Bill to prevent the injwing of Skins and Hides in London and its vicinity:--41e fcrred to it:Committee. General GAsoi , toria presented a Petition front the Compahy of Merchants trading to Africa, praying an aid of tB,oool.—lteterred to a Committee of the whole Howe. Sir JIM N SINCLAIR gave notice of a motion to morrow, for a Committee to inquire real eating the state of the Highways and Public Roads, and the propriety of more generally adopting broad-wheeled cal rriges. Mr. VANSITTART moved for an'Account of the quAntity of Peruvian Bark imported by, .and export ed froth, this -Country, within the last three years, .distinguishing the quantity retained for home con sumptiim, and the quantity exported to Ireland.— Ordera. • The SeCRETAR WAR presented s ome Returns, pursuant to order, , respe6ting the Recruiting Set. vice.—Urdered to lie on the Note, and to be printed. LORD LAKE, Lord CASTLEREAUIi brought down to the Home a Mesiage from his Majesty, which stated, that his Maiesty having taken 'into consideration the eminent services of General Gerard Lord ,Vicoutit Lake,. of AlitOil Clinton, performed for -his country both in Europe and the East Indies,, had been pleased to, IMO,' upon him the dignity of a Peerage, with au annuity of :2 00oi . per annum ; to be continued to his s , in and the, next heir male, lowardsienabling Them to support the dignity of the said rank; nud his Majesty recommende4 to his faitithil Qommous to take Skliql MV113 1 .1r03 as to their wisloin s,houlci seem hest calculated to secure the satne.lieterred to a Committee of . the whole House on Friday next. The Noble Lord gave notice, that be should on that+day move that a McnV.lnitnil 100 cro:.ied to ;fie memory of Lord Loke, at the pubic expence. SIR ttt (: liAttD STRACtIAN'ii Mr. IMFT rose, to as}; a question of his Majesty's Ministers; the. objed of Which waS to ob tain some (mita intbrtnatior, in regard to the ru mours'lately circulated, and tery generally received, relic:ding the situation of Sir .Richard Strachan's 'Squadron, sometime past ,occupied in the blockade of IL:du:fort. Ttu rolootir . was, that the Squadron 'was, fOr want of proviiinn,.; and water, obliged to quit, km strttion off Rochefort, by which means the vnetny's Squadron was enabled to proceel to sea:— lie did not mean to exPress any doiihts that the fate of that Scinadroo, whenever it shonld tnet with any of our Fleets, would add another trophy to ant gloiy of our arms but he wished to ask, wh e th er t h e rumours to which he alltided were founcleci iu fad. The CILd NCE LOR rf the EXCIIEQUISA aid,. lie was at mine loss elettrly to tg,d i , :rstau d7 .t h, Hun. Gondulim's O*AI. He had put no Ot.itiort. in an intelligible shape, nor made :my inotioit'fth the produttion of any document. If he W3ii dispbied to give notice , of a regular motion for any doeumentl on. the subjea, it would be the best inode to obtain' obje,‘..t. Mr. CALogArr, then gave noticoof a motion on Thursday se'unight.. WIEST 7 ISIDIA,TRADq. The CMI NC/31,1,01i of Me kLYCHEQbER, , , to tiottee ' F riday rata, rose ter the purpose of moving for a Select Coonnittee to bike into consideration the 'of by tin.. West -india Merchants iu thi s Oountry,, ownio; to the presetu state, Of their trade. The stib :tea was one of very grearinvortatce, ivitich it was: extretTioly desirable to ptlk into a couf - ti full in quiry; in orderdhat, by placing the real situatkin tb , ,Ke.. , l\fereltatits- in the eleareSt view, the (louse' tri i:o l ( be hetter„'imabled to judge what measures; Were . oligibic for their rcliel. in the conversationsi he had held with many Gentlemen in the West..! India Trade, 'lie understood they coniidcred dint the effeClit,l mode of relieving them from the; presstire under which ;they- have so lomr labbbred WoUld be thearicipt,ion of sii`dt - titc;.isures art Wo4kl in-: Orciise the consumption ofsugar in the home market, ond thereby enaLic them to gin rid of t he:accumulated Stock, on band. It would be tier the Committee;to inquire how such a purpose could best be promoted, nut! whether or not tho confining of the home ctis tilleries, for agiven tint; to the use of Kopf- and molas.ieB only, Nx oqld not be en eligible measure ; ucl ii so, whether it Lwoisld:be advisabhl:to.exicad the :expdient CO the three parts of the United King tio,n, or confine it to one part .only. For this - pur- Fo,e lie motel, that a Sele4 11:Wornittee be ap vointed.-H..)oo,Cfed, noinioated accordingly, and the Reports of the former West Ittdia Committee r eferred to them.' LAST Mr. HUSKISSON, hi the absence of his*night able Friend, the President of the Board Of Controul, gaYe notice tsf a Motion on Monday eext, • for elia apegintrnent or a Committee on the State of East Indpiaffairl. ItbatS OiN cotiNA L BILL. ii - :;il& T t iNMeesasuant to bli notice of yester cley, rose to.bring ferward his Motion for a Com mittee of Trade and Navigation, for the purpose of . , raking into coUsideeation The siabjed of the late Or . tiers in Council, establishittg many important al terations in the external commerce of this country. -Mr. Tierney reverted to his argument of last night, and contended - that the Bill now before the House, forearrying into etre& those Orders, was a' . Bill not 'merely for the purposes of revenue, but enacting various commercial regulations; that the 13111, there fore, instead of originating as it had done in a Cum nfittee of Ways and Means, 'for mere purposes of supply, ought to have originated iii a Ccitrimittee - of whole'p thed House for the erPoses of Trade 'and Na vigation ; or at least the objeds of the Bill ought to have been divided, and that part only.whieh related to revenue coMmeoced in the Committee of, Ways and Means. - If the '!tight Honourable Gentleman ,would propose any other mode equally le'ading to the, genie obje&, he woOld cheertidly relinquish his (no tion ; but otherwise, he should feel it hiS duty, upon a measure which men of the best iteormatiot con sidered-as ruinous to our c o mmerce,i an d come Tien tly to our existence, to press upon the House tile ne cessity of a full and deliberate inquiry from those who were most competent to give information, the merchants of this country, instead of blindly adopt ing a ruinous system ; for it' rne commercial interests of the cowry. were destroyed, 'the responsibility of Ministers 'would ' affbrd but a sorry compensation.--- His Majesty's Ministers, after having laid the Orders of Councir upoo the table, never once p u any 1 tuode of collating the sense of the House, or of those persons io the. country most competent to judge as to their probable Weak, or _ e s 'Co their prudence or their policy ; but they contented theniselVes with presenting a Bill for carrying these Orders into law, upon no other ground than because they had advised his Majesty to issue theM e and in Support of this Bill, they had not brought forward one tittle of evidence to prove its necessity. • In all pleasures formerly adopted by that House for any important regulation of trade, it had uniform ly been done by a Committee _of the whole House. There never was any occasion which deManded a de 'liberate, cautious, and prudentproceeding, teore than the present—the existenc,e'ofourcomMerce depended upon it, and that once undermined, the Country was gone. He could not conceive upon what rill , ciple the Itight * Hon. Gentleman beemed determined so stoutly to resist inquiry on this subject. Although this measure ,was adopted without any avowed ad viser, yet the Ministers must have been advised by somebody . ; and what he (Mr. Tierney) wished was, that the adviser, whoever he was, should be brought forward, and • confronted before the Committee' of . Trade, with persons of known experience, ceinpe fence, and probity, who were ready to bear testi mony to the ruinous tendency of the measure. There ' were many men of the first character and profound , est commercial knowledge, both in and o u t o f th at House, who, though not perhaps very adroit in the composition of speeches, were nevertheless Compe • tent to give that House the most important area ' 4ttor;ot itAf?Tmotio.,,' aud Noin,thio o f ' • to epee the' topic. Ile instanced a late Prodndion by a . merchant (Mr . Baring), distingui s h e d for inforina ' tion, experience, and ability. It.: was from Ouch men be wished the House to have an opportunity o f ' toll inquiry. The. Right Hon. Gentleman seemed beneupon carrying his measure into law witheut any inquiry, as if he wished to • " Do pea by s aaith, and .6• pa to find it came." He assured the Bight lion, Gentle - min, that his ;r e .. sist:nfee to 041 tpeasme: arose ,from Ito peevish or narrow motive of party, or vexatious opposition : but he feared the:Right lion. Gentleman wai rub-' nil% Into dangers of which he was not aware, and , for the 'fatal consequences of which he would find, ton late, that it would not be in his power to make amends to his Country. He, therefore, most earnest . ly tkprecoted all precipitancy in this 111CaSlire, 'and. implored him to, agree to suspend, the progress of Ills - Bill- until such time as the inquiry of a Coln-' mittee of Trade and Navigatioo Should . have enabled Lhitn'and the House to judge rightly of 'its tru e ten ,, dency and probable etTeas. . lie begged to call to his attention the Petition for PeaCe, now ou trite ,- table, presented, he Understood, rolu a 9,000" Malta,- !!falAtirt!r6,' oomplahiing. but ' in f reveCtitil ;1 1 4 de. , corous terms, that they wanted bread. Thu neces sary, conseptence of passing the Bill, he • teared„ 'would be:ati increase; 'ot those 30,00 U to 300,000'in; , a very little time. He concluded by moving ai Colt ntttee ot - frade and Navigation, tresit matters day s&rmight, for the purposeed tatting this subject ' into conside.rx ion. - , , 1 ' Tire' CI 1.1 NVE GLUE of .04e EXCUEQI,JE,R said, that it' he considered thireuestion as at! oppeiis tiou mutely vexatious' to hiniselt,,. be would not trottlee the House et all about it ;,113 it ,Was herwas 40 Cutiti,icitt of having pthceeded on fair and just grounds,: that , it would nut be iterfessary: tor him 'to trouble them with many obSeivatioo . s , :4 that . time. lie eoUld:not, howeVer, botthink, that the opposi tion was vexatious' to the interests of the Country, ,mtich More than to himself; . for it went expressly to delay a meesthe which the , circumstances of the ,country,, apd the situation of Eerope required to be ,a4uptet.i.asspeedily as possible, and which had al ready received, a decision after the most ample dis pission 'ortthe'subjed. The Right Hon. gentleman, in ,tbe whole of his argument*. this night, had yin -lently complained of want of information,; whilst he, for his' part, conceited that every degree of infor ,mation had, been' given that could at .all be considered -netessary The Orders' of Council had been laid before The House for their information.' They had been fully discussed as to the necessity, the policy. .and the effieeey ,of *them, and the House had do. ' cided in their tavoue; :ind the next thing to be done was; to give them a pradical erred,, by adopting a legal' mode of Carrying ' them into execution'; 'and This was intendedro be done by the 13111 then pend ing in the House, and which gave rise to the present Motion. It was open to every Member of the 110 SO, and of course to the Right lion. Geutlenein :tulip had just s a t d o w n , t o enter f u ll y on the suhjed iii the Coraniiitet! o f Ways and Mealli, s and to exa mine etidenceort or all the points that m i g h t . any bear on the tra de, efuninerce, and flat igation of the COLliitry, and every collateral matter respeding :414 "IstoPrie l fy Of the measure, or any mieehiefa or , 'evils which were likely toe be csapsequleit on fit• the 'night Honourable Octetlemb had st'nted, 1,114 t he and hisx`olleagues in soffite had adopted the titeaanre on their own responsibility. He mpealed Ice the House whether the ha was. so, and whether he had not submitted the Orders of Council to the House, and distinctly stated, that the measure had be ii adopt ed as e matter of etiCeiSity - , codlings of the enemy, and the circumstances of the country and of Europe; and that it was, necessary a Bill should pass, in order to give ettlicacy to the mea sure ? He . denied that Ministers had shewn any in 'difference-to the Petitions on the table, onto the si tuation of the Petitioners ; on the contrary, his Right lion. Friend had distinctly, for himself and his colleagues, deplored the situatiou of the. Peti tiopers; and expressed his sorroW that it. Wits not then in their power to do more towardsebeir The Right Hon. Gentleman was obliged to anticipate that these Petitions were Meditated and ready ante= cedent to the issuing of the Orders. in,Council. Ile well knew that was the case; and in fact, and in fair argument, the Orders in Council were 'issued for the purpose of cot:interacting the evils of priva tion in which, he said, they were running -a race with the enemy; and that the operation of them Was intended to prevent the evil, not by running the race of privation, but by compelling the enemy tci relinquish his unjust decrees: He assured the House, and the Right Honourable Gentleman also, that he was not influenced by any degree of false dignity that had been imputed to him; to abstain from the adoption of the measure be bad then pro posed, but he opposed it because there lid already been three discussions on the principle of the Bill. There were three more stages On which, he, and the Gentlemen opposite, might still further discuss it, and there could be no occasion for it except in point of form ; and in that he was clear there was nothing, but whet *might have been, with great propriety, touched on in the Committee of Ways and ' Means ; and he would certainly recommend to his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Foster) to 13111SLICF a similar course with respea to : ektending the same measure to Ireland, as he was 'convinced they had been perfectly cotreZt on what bad been done. There was one :clanae, he said, which had been found not properly.to belong to the Bill acid in respea to that it had been agreed, cone formahly to a suggestion of the Right Hon, Gentle man himself, that ,an instru6tion should be given to the Cottimittee to divide the Bill into two' Bills, if, on 4Al:consideration, they shoUld think fit so to do e and as there appeared to hint to be no nece'ssity to adopt the present• motion, in point of for, he was rune there was none in . point of 'substance, which might not be fully argued and discussed in the 'future stages of the Bill ;• and for these reasoo he should 'negative the motion. Dr. LAWRENCE said, that he was so far from not paying a due regard to forms, that he thought fiirms were frequently the, very essence of the most important matters, and sure he waathey 'TM - so in a very high degree, in the proceedings of On Honse: His Right Hon. Friend, and their side of the HoOse, wished for evidence:. the 'Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and his Colleagues, went solely on their own arguments, without condescending. to favour the thawa with any • iufeetotion or. evidence On which they could form's fidr opieion. All that they could gather from the explanation that had hitherto been given, was, that his Majesty wished the House to, pass a Bill to carry •the measure adopted wider the Prerogative into a legal elle% by" tilling` duties. When the, Right Hon. Gentleman. had beeiyesked what would bethe operation' of the Bill, and whit the.duties sierelikely to amount to in the waytifie veoue hie atetieer'was, he coeld not guess; se that 'the Il ' ouse were , entirely/ in the dark'on l that part of the subjeae The , Right Hon. 'Gentleman lea also said, that one Committee was as good as another, and: yet he had owned that there. was a clause in the' Bill that ought 'not to be there, beeat\se it had origi nated <in a Committee of Ways and Means: This was a measure which would deeply affea the`vital interests of the Country, our'neide and commerce; and before evety thing waeput on the cast of a die, the House ought to seek for information. Some :illusions had been made' to the Petitions - upon the ' teble with resped to peace. Ha was olie of those who would never recommend popular Petitions on. such subjeCts, because he thought they rather Were' likely to retard than forward so 'desireable an obje6t; bat at, :the same timee when the House' were on a: eneastee out of which might arise another war,• he theught it was th4iie'clety to be cautious ; and that, theyalmuld take every means to sliew the people' that the measure was calculated to frustrate the in-. tentioni of the ' enemy, by counteracting his Mee.; sures e and that cpuld not be so well done as by the evideeete of merchants, and these best acquainted with the trade and commerce of the conniry. Mr. itae/31 assured the House he would detain them hut a very short time. He could oot agree with the Right Honourable Gentletnan 'in his ar gument, nor tim the adviee which he had given to the , ChanCellur of the ExeheqUer of Ireland; for, they had, in his opinion, commeoced in error, and they ought to retreit, instead of persisting.- Ile said it had always been the praaitee of the. HOnse, when ; any material alteration of thelaw was to take place,' to resolve themselvei into Otand' Committees of. Trede; Grand Ceannittees of IteNiOn; Grand Com mittees' of Justice, Scc. and this was clone for the best purpose; in order that every such change should be adopted only on the hfllest Mid most 601011 i cou sideratient It was a mistake, lie said, that the , Standing Order of ilea was repealedby the Order Of. 1773, for it really was net and even, by the lasl Order l it was made necessary, that any Bill relating to Trade should always originre in a CoMmittee of the wholelioese, which gave it. one more s t age , and that a very important one's' for' in that. Com- . mittee they had the power of going into every met ! ter relating to it, as in respeOto expediencyt as to policy, or necessity, Mach distinguished a CoM- Mittee on Trade from a Committ - ee On Finelice. He had looked for precedents, as well as the short tireel he could spare would ,allow, and tbottght be bati found one ,that was in point: In 1731, when there existed certain duties on,' yarn from Ire land, which were appropriated to different uses„ it was thought wise to repeat{ those dnties, and place them ablely on the aggregate fund, ,which, was merely a, change of one fund. for another. wa s thee agreed to go into a Committee of the w hole House, in the nature of a Committee of Trade . , before even that measure was adopted.. He put a case that the prerogative' should , be used to make any alteration in the course of justice, and then that House was appliLl to for the purpose of legalizing such aet of prerogative. Would the House endure that such a measure should be adopted, without originating in a Grand Committee of Jus tice I Would the endure that such an important "Elialige - Sico - ula commence in a, Com tni nee of Ways and Means ? He was sure tiler Would not ; and - as thellouse had, by negle6ling to originate the Bid alluded to, suffered it to origivate in a Committee of IKiiys and Means, instead of it, Committee, of:.tho whole' House in the way of a Committee of Trade, he thought they ought to be7then checked, .and that the best way would be to retrace their steps. Mr. ROSE thought the Hon. Gentlentin had. made a mistake between the Grand Conninttee of 'Trade and the Standing Order of 1773, as both were adopted in Contemplation gf matters where in.: novatiens and alterations were intended to be made in trade, and in that case it was requisite that the Bill should originate in .a,Committee of the whole House; but this was not so in the present case. Whatever the innovation was, it originated iti the prerogative, which bad been used front the ne cessity of the circumstances of the Continent of Europe and of this Country; and it was therefore necessary the House should, by thepresent Bill, carry the Orders of Council into prglical etfbet, by fixing duties, which . were matters of Fina ce i and thereby properly came under the cognizance of the Com mittee of Ways and Means. He denied that the trade of this Country was altered by the Bill. . - The question being loudly and clam'orously called for, Mr....PONSCOrRY said he was Sorry to hear Geu tlemen so much wish for the question, as thy) , would: certainly be, disappointed. The Right He npurable Gentleman who spoke last had -said there was no alteration of trade by the Bill, but that the King had done it by his Prerogative, arising wed his belligerent rights. True ; but his MiOesty had referred this aet of the exercise of his Prerogative to the consideration of• the House of Cdtannomi, and re quested them to adopt the legal means of carrying. it into pta6fical effeet. In all cases of the exercise of the prerogative, the House of Commits had a right to inquire and consider whether his 'Maj4sty , dtstd been, well advised in-that ael. This no one could deny. •• What had :been clone on ktrtner occaslonit He had a precedent, whiich he.thouilit was very eine. logous to the present case. There, was • ;10 parvief the King's prerogative which was more universalt! allowed, than that of his right to enter into treaties with foreign Powers. ; Accordingly his M:th. , sty,, 17275. entered into a commercial treaty with Fratete; and how did' Parliament then proceed ? His Ma- Speeeh, informed the lionse of Com that he had concluded a Treaty of Navigation and Commerce with the Most Christian and h recommended it to them to take it into consider:llion. - How did the House a& ? Did they proreed to britt in a Bill_toettrry it into effeCt, by originating it ii, stl Comtnittee of WaYs , and Means. No.: they made an 'order' to consider .that part of the spec* whieh related Oicontmeree, in a COMMittee of the whole liouse, in order to examine whether his .Majesty had been well advised in thaexereise of that . proo gative. They deiermined,. in ; a Committee P 1 I.v.hole• house, that he had exetei,ed that prtirovtive • prOpetly, and :Orel-Wards addreoied hint to that ef . teCt ; and then _they-went . inv.; a Comtnittee of Wail and. Means ; to consider how-to carry the duties into etfeel. His Right Hon. rriend,said, that this utatitir was a measure of. great novelty, and of extreme im portance, and ought therefore'injikconsidered whit the greatest attention. Ue'wit of the same opinion; mad ho thought the Bill sliuultl haves originate din a Committee of the whole House, heyotild support the present motion. ' • - • . • . Mr. TIERINEY allowed there-bad been opportu nity fora discussion of the question, hutlione for ot deciaion of it, because It had not been taken up in a proper COmmittee. The Chancellor of the-Exche quer had once said, there had been Opportunity 19r ,a decision ; but he had, since very destcou sl Y dropped that word, and afterwards only used ) th a t of discussion: The Conimitteoof Ways and M", ; ll ' s was only proper in matters of Fi nan ce s except there' was _a particular instruction; and that not having taken place in the present Bill, the House had pro ceeded in error; and in a case of such 'magnitude and importance to the country, could mit do better than to retrace its -steps, and receive information on the subje& The Right Honourable G01. 1116 ' area (M!.' Rose) had said, there was nothing in this Bill contrary to the usual and ordinaiy , tun lt ' of trade ; denied. In case a neutral fitfil: Was warped into a port of this kingdOM, that bad cotton and Jesuit's bark on board, she must leave those articles behind - her ; this was not in- the first Bill, bet it was' in, the new edition of it; 11 13 4 :if this was not an alteration in the course of trade, lie cad not•tell what was. It was an infringement of the Navigation At, and ought to have originate(' inn. Committee of the whole House, and not hva Cotinnitree . of .; Ways and Means.; • because when? C4lllTitteeof Ways and Means was De ate: Er'it was atways:expre3sett as such it Committee. 11i: instanced a case of t oe LOrd Advectite of Scotland , . a few Sessions past, having. brought ,in Bill' for altering the coltalibn of teinds (t);thes) - in, Scot land, when the - Speaker bad exproily retniudea him, that being art alteration of , the law , of tythes, ,Which belonged to, the •church, 'the Bill must ort ginate in. a committee of the. whole House. .1.10 appealed to the 'Speaker if that' was not the 04e.; thooght, therctore,': the. liOuse would do well to. paUse here, and consider this subje& ty6ve In? t u rely. f,; however, - the Reuse decidect • a gains him, he would have the satisfatlion to NifeA, ituit he had done his duty, in putting thOM in the way'of doing right by calling for information, mil with that ,he must rest 'contented. :Thelaght Hon. Gentle man (the Chnocellor of the Pxcikxottr) had. that he would advis.; hii Eight Friend to orfgi,- nate his Bill fOr ,Irdand in 1110 same way; that ;spas, a Conttuittee - of .Ways and Menis. If ht: , did; he should have,an opportuni!y of prov,ing'hil sincerity; foi lie' had asserted, that lie (Vv: Tierno)) • might have Called for and exatnined .eviiitente i u the CtaP tnittee of Ways and 'Means.. #lf the CheinCeli or. the ,I Kch ot. efit4or-wr ltelano stiou,s.•tre.or tread in the seine steps i introriocogu Bttip wandd try the sincerity Of the Hight Hon. Genti,Zill3ll, by . c . a . l l. _ big .for the CLIIIIiII3tIOII Of Witneiief th at would 12°