The Sun. — London, England, 1818-03-12 00:00:00

'on tiers subject. There were before the lionce petitions from persons who stated that their houses bad been broken into and ransacked by the authority of Magistrates, to search them for libels ; that the .petitioners themselves had been carried to th'e House of Correction, loaded with irons, and compelkd to bard labour. Such was the ccin sequence of the celebrated Circular Letter issued last year_ by Lord Sidmonth. Could any thing be more mousaroesly illegal than tbat a man, without trial, should he loaded with irons and condemned to hard lal,oer in a House of Correc tion, fur a crime of which, even if be had been found guilty, the law would have awarded no such punishment ? He particularly referred to the statement of the petitioner (hitherto uncon tradicted) named Charles Swindon, who had suf fered such treatment ; nay, worse, his house broken open at the dead of night—his :wife, far advanced in pregnancy, dragged from her bed— the house ransacked, and the petitioner himself carried to prison. The consequences were, the premature labour of his wife, the death of his child, and the most revolting cruelties exercised upon the man himself, and all this because he was suspected of having in his pos session certain libellous papers. This at least remained. The House might pass this Bill--they might pass Bills to suspend or destroy the liberties of the people, bat they could not suspend the laws of God and Nature—they could not deliver the perpetrators of such acts from the torments of a guilty conscience. He contended that the cir cumstances on which the Indemnity Bill of 1801 bad been founded were very different from the present. Then there had been supposed and real conspiracies with a foreign enemy, and the pre tence was, that to discover the names of the per sons who had given information would be to ex pose them to his vengeance. Now it was that they would have to fear the fury of the populace and the actions of the persons whose confinement they had occasioned. But was it not known that witnesses brought forward iii Courts of Law were perfectly safe, and had any of those who had given evidence at Derby manifested any apprehension of ill-treatment ? The House were called upon to embody iu a law a declaration that such was the situation of the country, that persons giving infor rotation of conspiracies dangerous to the State could not do it safely without the protection of Parliament. He would not give his sanction to such a falsehood. A new system was thus at tempted to be established. Persons were employ ed to sustain characters which did not belong to them, to go among the disaffected and excite them to insurrection, and then they were to he protect ed by the House ! Notwithstanding the ridicule to which be had rendered himself obnoxious, he should still contend, that the employment of spies, in the manner in which Oliver had been employed, could not be justified. Had this man not appeared among the diseffected as an Ambassador from London, they would not have stirred a hand. No one could read the Derby Trials without seeing that those deluded men relied entirely on his state ments and promises. But it was said those men were disaffected, otherwise the supposed repre sentations of Oliver could have had no effect upon them, and consequently he did not deserve th e blame cast upon him. Were Ministers aware, that in saying this they were taking exactly the same ground of defence as Vaughan, e execration of mankind I—He did not speak of Brock nod his accomplices, for they had attempted to betray innocent men into crime. But Vaughan had engaged thieves by trade to commit an easy burglary, in order to seize them, and obtain the miserable reward given as the price of blood. It was to sanction a similar conduct in his Majes ty's Ministers that the House was called upon to pass the present Bill. But even its importance shrunk into nothing when a higher considera tion was embraced, and it was viewed as part of an oppressive system, to deprive individuals of their most valuable liberties, and then indemnify 111agistrates for all acts which they had done (even those not under the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus) in open defiance of justice. Amid the House were told that this was a necessary conse quence of the Suspension Act ! So that in future, Magistrates would know that as soon as the Ha beas Corpus should he suspended, they might eommit every illegal and unjust act they pleased, and be sure that they must of necessity be pro tected by a Bill like the present !—He knew that this melancholy precedent would be established, and that it would he said in future times that the House had refused inquiry whilst ifs Journals re corded cases of the most flagrant injustice and cruelty. His only consolation was, that when these proceedings should be read, when these pre cedents should be turned against the people, and all constitutional freedom destroyed with all jus tice, it would be known that there ha'l been a few individuals, who, conscious that they would be overpowered by numbers, and that the down fall of time public liberties would he hailed by the acclamations of majorities, had protested against such acts of violence, and endeavoured to lead back their country to a system of laws and justice, which had been its own boast, and the envy of sutrounding nations. His Majesty's reign had been distinguished by many brilliant victories, but Ministers would end by a melanenoly triumph over the liberties of their country, and in the words of its immortal Bard, That England, wont to conquer other nations, Hath galled a shameful conquest o'er herself." The SOLICITOR-GENERAL contended, that his Bon. and Learned Friend had kept out of sight, with consummate skill, the circumstances which bad led to the measures adopted last Session, and ultimately to the proposal of the present He then took a view of the conspiracies on which the Repots of the Committees and the Suspension Acts of 1 51 Thad been founded. After having obtained extraordinary powers on the ground of necessity alone, his Majesty's Ministers had sur rendered them as soon as that necessity had ceased, though the time fixed for their duration had not-yet expired. There had since been a new inquiry, and the Bill now before the House had been recommended. It had , been said that Mi .uisters wished. an indemnity-..for the . illegal acts which they had committed. He denied it. Ile denied that they had exceeded the powers en - t rusted to their hands. The real ground on which the 13111 was asked fur was, that if the circumstances 'of - ct tnitr7 were suci, 'as to r'elnite extraor dinary powers, they were also such as eo justify tie idts done by Government in, the exercise of those powers to protect the peace of the nation, ' The Bill itself did not recite that his Majesty's Ministers had exceeded the powers of the Act.— It would then be said, what was its necessity ? It was necessary,. because it was not consistent with the safety of the country that the names of the persons who had given information should be disclosed. Not that Ministers could not be able to defend themselves in any action which might be brought against them,' but because they could not do it without sacrificing the faith pledged to individuals whose names it was the more important to conceal as long as disaffection continued to exist in the country, that sources of information might be retained. As to the charge that Ma gistrates had exceeded their powers, and made themselves amenable to the laws, what evidence had been produced ? They . bad been represented as having entered the houses of individuals ac cused of libels, and searched for papers; his Ho nourable and Learned Friend was wrong, it he thought that the present Bill would protect them in such cases. It only extended indemnity to them if they had acted so towards individuals charged with high treason, and against whom warrants had been issued. As to the case of Swindon, which his Hon. and Learned Friend had stated with so much effect to the House, as it was one of libel, he would have a remedy in law against the Magistrate, notwithstanding the Bill of Indemnity, it ha bad suffered in the man lier which had been described. In 1780, there had been no suspension of the Habeas Corpus, and nothing but the necessity of the case had made Magistrates act beyond the powers of the law. That was therefore a case in point. For it there had existed any necessity at Manchester for committing persons immediately to prison in order to prevent mischief, the Bill should give in demnity for the Act. As to the employment of spies, lie contended that no two cases could he more dissimilar than that of Vaughan and the de fence made on the present occasion. Had it not been negatived by the First Report itself that Oliver had been sent- by Government to create disturbances in the country, for did not the Re port state, long before Oliver bad been heard of by his Majesty's Ministers, that a dangerous con spiracy existed ? Did his Hon. and Learned Friend wean to say that Government had sent Oliver purposely to produce and contrive the very riot for the discovery of which he was employed ? Witnesses had declared at Derby, that they had been deterred from coming forward earlier, on ac count of the threats used, and lest they should lose their lives. ‘Vhat would have been said if Braudreth had been taken up before his enter- • prise, and no insurrection had occurred ?—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition !)-11 7 1iy it would have been said, that for men of such a class ro form such an attempt was impossible, and that no plot had ever existed. He contended that the means used by Ministers had alone prevented the explosion of other insurrections ; and that in justice to them, the Magistrates, and the country, a Bill of Indemnity ought to be passed. Sir F. BURDETT observed that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down had ' taken it for granted that the circumstances of the country last year justified the measures which had been adopted. This was the very point on which he ought to have brought proofs, if he could, which he had not done. He had said that the Bill was not to protect his Majesty's Ministers, but to prevent them from being forced to disclose the sources of the information on which they had acted. This was an argument which could nut be supported. What, were men to be deprived of their liberty, and never know who their accusers were ? And this was pronounce:l a pat t of the new system to be established ! He recollected that there was formerly a lion's head in the Place of St, Mark, at Venice, into which secret accusations were thrust, and the atrociously despotic Govern ment of that city used to act upon them. What. difference was there between such a country and one where there was a Secretary of State ready to receive every secret accusation, and to conceal and protect informers ? He really believed the dis turbances to have been created by Ministers, in order to prevent themselves from being impor tuned about Parliamentary Reform, for he found that they alone could derive any benefit front them. They bad violated the Coronation Oath, the laws of the country, the Constitution, and the liber ties of the people. ►'hen they had asked for the powers which they had so scandalously abused, it hal not been with a view to indemnity. They had obtained them by telling the House, that in assuming them they should labour under a heavy responsibility, and that the time must come when they must give a strict account of the manner in which they had used them. But the whole of their transactions had been illegal and unconsti tutional, and the abuses of power which they had committed were of a nature which ought not to be indemnified. He then repeated the statements contained in several petitions presented to the House, respecting the cruel treatment alleged to have been inflicted on prisoners under the Sus pension Act, who had been discharged as illegally as they had been apprehended. He thought that there should always be some proportion be tween the end and the means, for it was ridi culous to fear that Brandreth, with a few weavers, should be able to destroy an army like that kept on foot by Government. He knew very well that lawyers considered intention as constituting guilt; but suppose that the King should be passing, and that a man should blow a feather and say, " that's to kill the King," would that be treason ? He still saw no reason either for suspending the Ha beas Corpus or confining individuals, and should therefore give his vote against going into the Committee. Mr. LAW saw little more in the speech of the Hun. Baronet than his usual extraordinary zeal in the cause of Reform. - Let him know, however, that Reform could only be discussed with Success, not at a period of disturbances, but in a state of complete tranquillity, such as that likely to be produced by the measures of his Majesty's 114i !livers. The dangers which existed at the time• when the Suspension Act had last year been passed, scented now to he forgotten, and that monstrous union of Luddism anti politics, formed into a sys tern of teg ul a r plundee and orgatilied assassina tion. • On those clangers the Act 'of Suspension had been fo'unded, and thoOgh not iMmediately consequent upon, yet connected with it, was the present Bal. Ile contended that Ministers 'ought to be borne harmless, unless it should be proved that they had exceeded their powers. That they had made a moderate use of them, there was some proofs before the House. The number of indi viduals taken up was small that showed some moderation ; none of - them had been confined, save on information confirmed by an oath—that displayed some discretion. There was besides the opinion of two Committees. 'Prue, it was said that those Committees had been appointed by Mi nisters, and bad a cause to support. But let the opponents of the measure appoint their own Com mittee, and let the House see which of the two would be honoured with the coofidenee of the country. It the opinions of such Committees were to be discredited, was implicit faith to be p►aced in the petitions presented to the House ? (Hear, hear !)—But suppose the same degree: of credit should be given to both, yet the Bill must be voted, as no case had been made out against it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman might have had charity enough to suppose, that persons coming to give important information on oath were not guided by resentment, especially as he had represented the declaration of one of the men of Derby as entitled to credit, because he was religions. Sir S. ItomiLLY.—l never said that, nor any thing like it. Mr. LAW was glad that he bad been mistaken. The Hon and Learned Gentleman, however, had charged his Majesty's Ministers with a gross libel on the wkole people. Sir S. RoMILY.—I never said that. Mr. LA w was sorry that he should have so com pletely misunderstood the Hon. and Learned Gen denten. He supposed that the expression had been used by another lion. and Learned Member behind him— Mr. BROUGHAM — I have not spoken a single sentence ! Mr. LAW had beard the sentiment expressed by so many Gentlemen on that side of the House, that it was not astonishing be should have lost sight of its original propounder. He then de fended the conduct of the Magistracy, and trusted that they would continue to do their duty, to put down the spirit of insurrection, and to deserve and enjoy the approbation of the country. The 'louse had a duty to perform towards those whO had given information. it had to shelter them from the daggers of assassins. The real ques tion was, whether the House would protect those who prevented, or those who committed offences Sir WILLIAM 13IIIIROUGIIS maintained, that not withstanding what had been said to the contrary, the very first clause of the Bill sheaved that it was intended to indemnify Ministers for hating ex ceeded their powers. It was indeed the first time that he had heard it asserted that a man who issued a warrant on information given upon oath might enter into an engagement to keep that information a profound secret. His Majesty's. Ministers had last year come down to the House to ask for greater powers than the occasion required.. They had obtained them ; and their first act had been to exceed them. And on what ground had they exceeded them 1 Lest any danger should accrue to the persons who had given the information. But there had been trials in London, at Derby, and at York ; and haul any one heard of any of the witnesses produced on those occasions having been attacked ? He believed that the individuals taken up had been discharged that they might bring no action ; for they could not do it unless they had seen acquitted or legally delivered, neither of which had been the case. It was contended that Ministers had not exceeded their powers ; if so why was such a Bill proposed ? But they had ex ceeded their powers. in discharging those men as they had done. Lie continued to argue, that the seizing of arms and papers of persons under a warrant, on suspicion of Treason, was always usual, and therefore no indemnity was wanting for those who had executed such warrants. But was every man to be indemnified for making such seizures under common circumstances ? They did _ indeed Want an indemnity for this conduct, be cause it was contrary to law ; and he would say, on the whole, that this was one of the most odi ous and atrocious Bills that ever came before Par liament. Sir F. FLOOD said he owed it to his country and his constituents to come forward in support of this measure. The Party, as it was called on the other side of the House, proved, by its sentiments militating against each other, that that Party was nearly dissolved. The Bill had been twice ap proved of by this House, first, by a majority of 126, and then by one of .65 ; and if it had any defects, they could be remedied in a Committee. The Bill had already been carried by an immense majority of the Lords, and it ought to be eater tained with due respect by this House. Persons in the highest offices and the highest rank had in vestigated the State of the Country and were unanimous in their Report. Therefore time House ought to go into the Committee on the Bill with out further argument. The late 'Committees had had amongst them his able countryman, who had reconciled all the jarring Powers of the Continent, and had therefore proved himself the fittest man on earth to be of that Committee. He could have wished the Hon. Baronet (Sir NV. Burroughs) had left all his special pleading behind him in India, instead of coming here to talk of the in juries of the people ; as he might have found front Judge Black Stone, that such measures as those he condemned were stated by that sound Judge to be necessary to preserve time Constitu tion for ever. His (the Hon. Bar6net's) opi nions were therefore unfoontled, and contrary to law; and though he (Sir F.) was one of time Members who voted the Right Hon. Gentleman into the Chair, he would, on this occasion, have the greatest pleasure in voting him out of it. Mr. LAMBE declared it due to himself to say, that the deliberate opinion be had formed on the measures that had been adopted still continued in his mind. Ile had voted lor thcselrmastire'S last year upon general principles and legida , ive grounds ; and he would say that those grounds were not necessarily affected by the result of any . . . • trials or decisioris in atty Court's of Law, Witere the guilt or innocence of a few individuals only were to be decided. But some of the Honour able Baronet's arguments were totally untenable in itistice and common sense. It was impossible fur the House, when they legislated last year, w know the extent of the clanger ; but there were fair appearances of danger ; and would hu man credulity go the length of supposing that the affair at Derby was an insulated conspiracy 1, Ie waS clearly proved that it was only a branch of a most complicated scheme of insurrection. It waS the case of all civil services, that they could not be fairly estimated, because their consequences could not be ascertained, and therefore they were performed amidst obloquy and rept smelt, and were lost in the tranquillity which they were -the means of restoring, and in the prosperity they had secured. We had now returned to the Constitution unimpaired, except by the precedent that had been resorted to, and if the measure was necessary, it was those who had rendered it so that were answerable, by af fording the materials for disaffection, which was always alive and in wait in manufacturing towns, for availing itself of the distress of the country. This detestable spirit still prevailed ; hut the pros pects of the country were now improved, and trade and the spirits of men were reviving. It was impossible. however, to look at the great mili tary establishments of the Continent, engendered by the last war, and in sonie respects the unna tural and distorted state of society at home, with out something of a shuddering of alarm and ap prehension. These matters required the utmost temper, prudence, and circumspection, on trim part of those who held the reins of Governmente There were two points respecting the employ ment of spies which he could not pass withottt notice. We should take care not to become the dupes of those Who would throw upon Oliver all the odium of the transactions of which they them selves were the movers and instigators. He was not at first employed by Ministers. It was the wive spirators who first took him down, and who had the design of mis-stating the nemhers of the affected, and going from place to place, to, hold out false hopes of assistance. It was this coaduct that rendered the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act necessary. The Hon. Gentleman then went into a review of all that had been said against Oliver by the Insurgents, and argued, that he and those who were engaged at Manchester were welt received while they held out hopes of numerous bodies of the disaffected being ready to join theta ; but when it was supposed they were informet s e every false imputation was thrown upon them The next point was that Oliver had been slid to have held treasonable language on the day the Prince •Regent went to open the Parliament. tie did not know that this might not be true ; for role sidering the light in which he was held, by thos4 persons who committed the outrage, it was not impossible that he might have excited the mob to acts of violence. But he would say that it was extremely unfortunate that the secret was not told at that time, for it woul:1 have been very tlesirabW to know who were the leaders of that outrage, anti the apprehension of Oliver would have led to the discovery of others, while it would have proved. whether he was really a Government spy or osel- Every one must concur that the use o f slide persons ought to be regretted ; but it d e sersA serious consideration, whether a plan could be laid down that - , front the perverseness and infirmi.ty of human nature, could cause them to be dispensed. with ; and it was impossible to draw a correct line of distinction between the strict morality e 94 necessity of the question. We must recollect that it was very easy to be misled in our feeiiugs of such subjects : for it was very seldoes that cone spiracies against property and individual Security could be detected without the aid of accomplices and if if public sympathy or italienat ion were alo" consulted, rules might be laid d ownr that it migh=t soon be found necessary to depart from. 014 ( I I whole, he thought the Bill necessary, and should therefore vote for it, as without it, the person* Who had given information might be exposed ta f. the vengeance of those whose machinations ha° been defeated. He was convinced that no uudttC severity had been exercised, and that the effect* of the proceedings that had taken place would not be lost ; persons who might be henceforth tempted to adopt violent measures would recoo' shier the object of their deluders, and they wooll see that such measures would produce a Goverod ment more arbitrary and despotic than that whiOs it was intended to displace. Mr. BROUGHAM thought the Hon. Gentlemall had gone so far in his entire support of Ministers► that he deeply regretted to say be had richly dee served all the approbation he land received. ' l3 " it was his arguments and not his authority that ought to be weighed, and that upon their ourrt merits, as if they had come from the Ministeria l ' instead of the Opposition side of the House.°' They were connected almost as much with aril other measure as with the Indemnity Bill. Wal t the exception of two or three concluding see' tences, he defied any body to point out a sinee passage of the [lon. Gentleman's speech that re" lated to this Bill, for they applied just as much -re' any of the series of measures out of which the Indemnity Bill I,ad grown. In going over the c argutneots of the Hon. Gentleman in favour Ut the Bill, he (Mr. B ) said he would admit [be g at all times where services had been rendered De ' cessary front the circumstances of the ease, Buell persons ought to be protected. But he wold 4 confine the indemnity to that which was not evil° was sought for, but to hold out pa otection to thole who had transgressed the law, from the worst of motives, confounding the meritorious magistrate 4 with the miscreants who had deluded the people" and bolding out to them the same indemnity" tie then touched on the Reports of the Commit' tee, expressive of the dangers to which Magis' trates and witnesses were exposed. On former occasions, when two Commissions were sent to different parts of.the country, under one of whir l ' eighteen persons were convicted and punished: was any one of those wituesses who appeared against them in danger ? Yes, one, and one only , and it was because a wro.ng person had bee" brought to trial on his evidence. Here the flon and Learned Gentleman detailed the full porde"; tars of the case which took place at the persons charged with Luddism, under the spe"4 h i h, 4t