The Sun. — London, England, 1836-06-03 00:00:00

~~. 7 . Interest at 4/. per cent. on 1,050,0001., to arse fro - a sa w or perpetuities , 11 .13. Of the 1,200,0001. calculated to arise from of perpetuities by the Ecclessiastical Commis- Moners (but estimated by Mr. Finlayson, the Govern "lent actuary, to amount to 1,507,050/. ), there has been realised and disbursed by the Commissioners 150,000/ ; but the interest of the residue thereof, "Mounting to 1,050,000/., will, at the rate of 4/. per Cent, produce an annual permanent sum, as above specified. 8. Income of benefices, suspended under the non celebration service clause, for the three years to Fe bruary, 183 3.. -ACT TO ALTER AND AMEND CITURCII TENIPORAI,I TIES ACT, 4 & 5 Will. IV., ch. 90. From 38 dignities, without cure, and 49 pre bends, without cure of souls, after deducting the ex penses of collection,•and making other abatements and deductions B,OOO N.B. This Act provides that in the case of any Person holding any dignity or office under the rank of an archbishopric or bishopric, and not having cure of souls in any parish appropriated thereto, the appoint /nett to such dignity or office may, on the next avoid ance, be suspended, which is the case of the aforesaid as dignities and 49 prebends. £130,840 111. THE PRESENT TITHE BILL. 10. The 77th clause saves existing interests, but Vests th e property belonging to minor canons and vicars choral in the Exclesiastical Commissioners (some of which offices are reported by the revenue Commis sioners to be complete sinecures) ; and after providing for such of these offices as have duties, and are neces sary to be upheld, authorises the surplus arising from such estates, amounting to an entire sum of 227624/., to be carried to the general fund, which surplus is esti mated to amount to 4,000 .1 1. The 79th clause provides that the sinecure tithes disappropriated from all dignities (having cure) flay, instead of being given to the vicars or perpetual curates, if otherwise sufficiently endowed, be carried to the general fund, under the administration of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ; the revenue arising from which, after making all necessary deductions and abate- Ments, is estimated to amount to 5,300 £139,140 I. CHußcif TEMPORALITIES ACT, 3 and 4 Will. IV., ch. 37. Revenues as estimated by Earl Grey to arise from 1. Produce of suppressed sees 2. Reduction of the bishopric of Derry, immediate Said prospective 6,160 3. Future reduction of Armagh sec 4. Glebe-house loan instalments, re-payable for the text 15 years 5. Tax on continuing bishoprics 6. Tax on incumbents of benefices 41,800 7. Interest, at 41. per cent., on 1,000,000/., to arise from the sale of perpetuities N.B. Under the Church Temporalities Act, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners have the power of apply ing the principal arising from these sales to meet their present exigencies, which precludes the possibility of Itafixing eventually an annual permanent income from this source. 8. Income of benefices suspended under the non celtbreion service clause, for the three years, to Feb., 1 833 IL A CT TO A~•TER AND AMEND CHURCH TEMPORALITIES ACT, 4 aid 5 Will. IV., ch. 90. 9. Not provided fa under the Church Temporalities Act 111. THE PRESENT TITHE BILL. 10. Not provided for tinder the Church Temporalities Act 11. Not provided for under the Church Temporalities Act £155,840 Revenues as contemplated to arise from the combined pro visions of the Church Temporalities Act, the Amendment Act, and the present Tithe Bill, amount to 139,1401. APPLICATION OP THIS REVENUE. The charges which the foregoing fund of 139,1401. is de signed to meet will be as follow :- 1. When the churches shall have been put into com plete repair, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners report that the future repair of them will require an annual Sum of £25,000 Other expenses formerly defrayed by vestry cess, they state, will require..... 2. Expenses of the commission • lO,OOO 3. Interest on 100,000 advanced the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in way of loan, at 4 per cent 4,000 £74,000 4. BuifJing of churches, as estimated by Earl Grey 20,000 5. Building of glebe-houses, as estimated by Earl 10,000 Grey 6. To repaymcns of the loan of 100,0001. by annual instalments, for the ne.xt five years, of 20,000 -- £124,000 There will remain therefore, jo meet deficiencies in the items as above specified, whicb must increase as the building of Churches increases ; for the other ob jects of the Commission ' • and for the aidditional clerks which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners are authorised to employ to carry the provisions of the Tithe Bill into effect, a residue of 15,140 £139,140 Revenues as contemplated, by Earl Grey, to arise from the Provisions of the Church Temporalities Act alone amount to 155,840 L APPLICATION OP TIIIS REVENUE. The charges which the foregoing fund of 155,840/. was de signed to meet, are stated by Earl Grey to be as follow :- 1. The Church cess, including' the repairs of churches, estimated at L.60,000 2. The augmentation of small livings to 2001. each 46,500 3. The building of churches, being the average ex penditure of three preceding years 20,000 4, The building of glebe-houses, which his Lord "hip considered very necessary, as not one half of the benefices were provided therewith £136,500 5. The expens, , s of the Commission, estimated at 6,000 -- £142,500 There remained, therefore, to meet deficiencies, in the amounts as above estimated, and for the other ob- Jects of the Commission, a residue of 13,340 £155,840 The characteristic and distinguishing feature between the C ontemplated measures and the_ provisions of the Church TemporalitiesAct is, r.ct .s, that the necessity of appropriating 46 .5001. for the augmentation of small livings, as contemplated Under the Church Temporalities Act, will.not arise under the Provisions of the proposed Tithe Bill ; so that not only a arg er residue will remain for the building of Churches and glebe-houses, and the other objects of the Commission, but a Provision is made for enabling the Commissioners to repay the i debt of 100,0001. due by them to the public. When I have said that .the Noble Lord opposite has dealt rather hard with his own measure, I feel that in one respect I am bound 10 defend that measure, as well as the Commissioners, because _lt must b e remem bered that when they began their operations, they found an arrear of vestry cess for the last three tears— lla3tments evaded, it should be called to mind, under the glu t:loos system which the Noble Lord had taken under his pro leetion. After the statements which I have laid before the House, I feel myself in a position to contend, that by the ope rations of the present Tithe Bill, the financial concerns of the EcelesiasticalCommissioners, and the objects contemplated by t he Chur.:l3 Temporalities Act, are, to say the least of it, in no degree deteriorated or injuriously affected. My opinion is that they will be considerably aided and improved by this Bill.— (Hear. ) With that Aet this Bill in no w.ry interferes, except t 4) improve it. Indeed, so strict is the abstinence from all I nterference, that, where funds are still to be deducted from s inecure dignities, we do not propose to carry this new su r p lus to th e consolidated fund for the purposes of education, but 11 - are to be carried to the account of the ecclesiastical fund. Hear, hear.) If, therefore, after meeting the principle of the Church Temporalities Act, the Legislature thinks it can 4, nd further surplus revenue, it is quite right to inquire whe ther o r not a more rational, a more equitable, or higher per- Doze, cannot be answered in a fresh distribution of that sur plus, I say this because 1 feel that whereas one set of par " ts provides only for the wants —and most im p ortant and most i n di s pensable wants, I fully admit them to be —of a cer '4 , In set, or, if you like the term better, of a segment of the pc 14Itation_the other set of purses, without excluding that t 'grrtent, provides fur the very important and in dis p ensable a nts of the whole population —( Hear, hear.) It was with "iI feelii that I beard-one particular part of the speech of 1 11 3' ilonou'raMe Friend the Member for Weymout h— ( Hear, hear)—with peculiar gratification. In the justice of 1 . 41 Y Honourable F r i?nd's admonition, with respe ct to gene education, cordially concur.—(Hear, hear.) I fully tee with him that it is quite - incumbent u p on us to take tar e that the whole system of national education should be r t ri e d on upon a ne utral and impartial principle. — (He ar, j a lr, hear.) I am aware that several char g es have t . e ,,. e L l advanced against the present mode of carryi n g on edu "On in Ireland. Some of these charges have on repre oations made to Government, been duly i n q uired ill t °, and satisfactorily disproved—( Hear, hear)—but there otSers for which time is some foundation. I believe, 4 , °;v ever, that where the el,Zfes are well founded, the defects e Principally owing to the very .``.adequate means which the . aessum.ers as yet have had of t i'roviding properly in to-hucted teachers for the schools.—( Hear, ersar.) I have rea -141;to think: that several of the statements have been dell founded. as to the working of the system, are very tai from founded. 1 have heard to-day, upon authority on which o l e o) rely, that one-twelfth of the schools in Ireland are in p i ! Pfetestant county of Antrim, and one-fourteenth in the ars e county of Down.—( Hear, hear.) This, I am ready to admit, that if the Legislature cons 'nts to en pl:7(' and ,eetend the system, and if grounds of com plaint and susTicioo should exist, then it will be quite fair to th," e t that Government or the Legislature, should institute Cries of Tl l°st searching, inquiries WO the suttlect• — ( tclriTee Bill to mere-, hear.") T 1 e other prominent ii;eund of objection appears to be the alleged low a VU,'-iiste e'42o,unt pain-- %j ai Proposed to be assigned by the Bill to the Ihs t e tergyof Ireland. .Upen this point I will first otoseve, .r ouro .e rtai n ly feel that If I could put all antecedent and sur "mg eircumstaucos asile, I could go quite along wit') the Without I Where the Protestant Population does not exceed, or is less than any Protestants 5 ;0 15 2U I 25 Person . I I I Persons. Persons. Persons. I Persons Class 1. I —7— Cass IT. IClass — ill TTEITIT. Class V. Clas3 VI. 41 2.1 . 21 31 23 I 27 With respect to the 41 benefices in the first class, no plea of necessity can be advanced for upholding any of those bene fices, in which there is not a single Protestant ; neither can it be contended that the necessity arises in regard to the 20 benefices in the second class, of which one contains only a single Protestant, seven of thvm only 2, three of them only 3, six of them only 4, and three of them only 5 Protestant indi viduals.—( Hear, hear.) And with respect to the remaining four classes of benefices, if they be considered as consisting, not of individuals, but of families, and each family to consist of Protestant parents and two or three Protestant children, the third class of benefices, as aforesaid, would contain about two Protestant families ; the fourth class, about ,three ; the fifth class, about four; and the sixth class about five, or, at the most; six Protestant families. Now, if such be the exist ing state of things in Ireland, it is submitted that the necessity would not arise of establishing, in any such benefice as afore said, a church, glebe-house, glebe, and resident minister, for the accommodation of two, three, four, five, or even six Pro testant families, varying in number from ten to twenty-five Protestants, when, by the annexation of such benefices, or a part or parts thereof to the church of an adjoining bene fice, as local circumstances may render most advis able, and the contiguity of the Protestant inhabitants may require, the spiritual wants of the Protestants may, by such annexation, be more conveniently, and therefore more effectually, provided for than by the erection of a church and the location of a minister in an extensive parish, where the few Protestant families live at a remote distance, it may be, from one another, scattered, as it were, over a large extent of territorial surface, which in Ireland, is not unfrequently the case—(hear, hear, hear)—it being remembered that the question of contiguity, and all other local circumstances of the Protestants, convenience to the church, &c., are' proposed by the Bill to be referred, in the first instance, to the Ecclesi astical Commissioners for their report, and afterwards to the ec clesiastical committee of the Privy- Council, for their adjudi cation thereupon ; and this, not merely upon the next vacancy of each and every benefice, but upon every vacancy in future, should ulterior circumstances require the bounds and limits of the benefices to be modified and altered. If therefore, the number of benefices, as at present existing in Ireland, be 1,385, and the reasonableness of the preceding observations be ad mitted, there are no less than 165 benefices contained in the six classes of benefices as aforesaid ; so that, if 1,385 be reduced by 165, there will only remain 1,220 bencices—(hear)—for which provision will require to be made by means of a church, glebe-house, glebe, and resi dent minister. But as some of the benefices consist of unions of two or more parishes, and as the parishes forming these unions may, from their extent, require to be erected into two benefices instead of one (as is the case at present), the conve nience and contiguity of the Protestants to their respective places of worship being duly considered, provision has been made for 'the founding of 1,250 benefices, conceiving that it may be advantageous to subdivide some of the existing bene fices, and to erect new ones. The details of the proposed 1,250 benefices, with the average amount of clerical incomes under the present Bill, are these. There will be 675 benefices, containing more than fifty and less than five hundred Protestants, to each of which may be assigned an income, of 2001., arising from rent charge, and 451, arising from thirty statute acres of glebe, valued at atm* per acre ; thereby making the gross income required for benefices of this class amount to— Rent charges £135,000 Glebe lands Total L.165,373 211 benefices, containing more than 600 and less than 1,000 Protestants, to each of which may he assigned an income of 3001. from rent-charge, and 451. from thirty statute acres of glebe, valued at 305." per acre ; thereby making the gross income required for benefices of this class amount to— Rent charges £63,300 Glebe lands 9,495 Total £72,795 190 benefices, containing more than 1,000 and less than 3,000 Protestants, to each of which may be assigned an income of 4001. from rent-charge, and 451. from tiQrty statute acres of glebe, valued as before ; thereby making the gross income required for benefices of this class amount to— ' Rent charges E. 76,000 Glebe lands 8,550 Total 51 benefices, containing m ore than 3,000 Protestants, to each of which may be assigned an income of 5001. from rent-charge; and 451. from thirty statute acres • of glebe, valued as before; thereby making the gross income required for benefices of this class amount to— Rent eharge5......25,600 Glebe lands.. ..•••• 2,295 Total £27,795 And if to these be added the 123 benefices, containing less than 50 Protestants; to each of which may be assigned an income of 100/. from rent-charge, and- 45/. from 30 statute acres of glebe, valued as before; thereby making the gross income required for benefices of this class amount to— Rent charges 12,300 Glebe lands .. 5,535 Total £17,835 1,250 benefices requiring an entire sum of ..X368,338 thereby making the average net income of the 1,250 benefices amount to 2941. 13s. 4d. per annum. This being the assigned income of the Irish clergyman, let us now turn to the inquiry into the circumstances of the clergy of England. I find by the return of the English Ecclesiastical Commissioners, that the number of benefices in England and Wales returned to the Commissioners, including sinecure rectories, is 10,540 ; that the aggregate amount of the gross revenue of the incum bents of those benefices, in the several dioceses,is 3,197,225/. ; that the aggregate amount of the net revenues of the incum bents of the aforesaid benefices, is 3,004,721/. ; that the annual average for each incumbent upon the the total gross income returned, is 303/. ; and the annual average upon the total net income returned, is only 2851. The net in come of the Irish incumbents of the 1,250 benefices will bet 294/. 13s, 4d., while the net incomes of the English clergy at the present day is only 285/., although the duties of the English clergy, from the increscd ..number of their congre gations, must be heavier and far more onerous than those of the Irish.elergy.—(l - lear, hear, hear, ) In comparing, how ever, the average net incomes of the English clergy with those of the Irish, under this Bill, it should be observed, in order to do equal justice in instituting the comparison, that when 2851. is reported to be the average net iaceme of the English clergy, no deduction whatever is made from the gross incomes on account of the stipends paid to their curates, of which curates the report of the English CormnisSioners states there are 5,230 employel by the resident and non-resident in cumbents, whose stipends amount to a gross sum of 424 695/. ; so that if the average net incomes of the English clergy be struck, after deducting the stipends paid their curates, it will only amount to 244/. 15s. ad„ instead of 285/., as already mentioned; while the net incoales of the Irish clergy will, after deducting the proportiOn of stipend payable to the curates by the incumbents, average at 288/. 16s. 81., under the pro posed Tithe Bill;—( Hear, hear.) There is another feature, touching the character of the revenues of the English clergy, as compared with those of the Irish clergy, under, the proposed Tithe Bill, deserving of special notice. The English :Com missioners report, ‘• that the pew-ronts have been treated as ecclesiastical revenue, although a variable and uncertain source of income ; that in those benefices which of late years came into existence under the Church Building Acts, or by opera tion of other causes, the pew-rents (which are so variable and uncertain) constitute the sole or principal support of the minister; that, the three years' average of income to 1831 may be considered as applicable to a continuine., though a variable income ; and liable to reduction by the failure or defalcation of some of its sources, or by reduction of rent, or by fresh agreements for the compositions of tithes ; and they also report that there are a great many outgoings, which it has been impossible to take account of in the table, being only occasional, and not admitting of an average ; such as, calls for subscription towards drainage and embanking, &e." The result, therefore, is, that the English Clugy can not calculate, with any degree of certainty, on the average amounts of their incomes, as before stated ; owing to one source of their revenues, namely, the pew rants, being uncer tain and variable in amount, and which in mile eises con stitute the only source of revenue ; owing, also, sometimaa to a failure of the crop:, reduction of rents, or fresh agreements for compositions Qf tithes, which are variable ; and owing to unctot4irwtliwi manV occasional outgoings, which did not admit of any average ben: r 7 ; -Eneland, &ref() degreeof taken. e, . , seems to characterise the perception or •cteilcat circumstances may contribute to reduce income, amounts,e as already stated. But w d a i v tf e h e t rt rill ti t le. pc f nd4i,on of the clergy, in e below• Ireland i tits e from the security and certainty which, nr,deF thc-proowd Tithe . Out, will . attach to the perception of their incomes • in fu'uie. Froliql,4 certain time in each year, the i Irish clergy will be algae FePiFe fr9!P the Eccle- The value of the glebe lands is taken as 445, pe statute acre, as the glebes to be assigned the clergy WI consist .1,A0,11. of profitable land, rent-free, Which is about the average c , r0046 ire pr , ofitable debes in Ireland at I present. siastical Commissioners a warrant - expressive of the amount or rent-charge payable to them, regulated, no doubt; according to ti.e provisions in such case made and rnovided ; a day, as convenient as may be after the Ist of January, in each year, will be appointed and notified for discharging these warrants at the Bank of Ireland ; and until they shall be dis charged, the warrants will bear an interest of 13-d. per cent. per diem on the several sums therein expressed • and, lastly, the only deduction to which incumbents of benelices, created under this Act, will he subject, will be 61. in the pound on the amount contained in the warrants, as it is intended, as part of the proposed measure, to exonerate the clergy from al other charges and outgoings ; such as • glebe rents, schoolmasters' salaries, expenses, of collection, procu ration fees, synodals, ece., save and except the • ex hibits fees payable at visitations. Independently of the excess of the average gross and net incomes of the Irish clergy under the proposed Bill, over and above those of the English clergy, under the existing regime, if the certainty of the amounts of income, and of regular periodical payments of the Irish clergy be alone considered, they are of themselves most important advantages, which cannot be lightly esteemed, and which ought not to be underrated in the eye of the clergy, the Legislature, and the English public.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In reference to Scotland, I have not been able to procure such precise returns, as to the average incomes of the Scottish clergy, as those which I have stated from England and Wales, and Ireland. • I have, however, ascertained that the incomes of the Scottish clergy vary from 170/. to 2401. a-year. I will now proceed to make to the [louse a statement of the average of population, and number of benefices : ENGLAND ANT) WALES.—Popuiatio 00 DAhret for Dissenter's, &c., one-fourth 3,625,0 k (The Bishop of London states the number of the Established Church es three-fourths,' • Lord Grey thought it much less.) SCOTLAND —No deduction is made. .... . PRESBYTE RIANS—Ut.sTER—(The gross humb r in' Ireland is 642,35t9 ESTABLISHED CHURCH IN IRELAND 'lO l c. - -g—, 4 * (-lig R 2..:, 2-- The following will show the general results of the foregoing statement : • Bene- Alf In- Popu'a. Acres. Square liees. come. tion. Miles. England and Wales 10,715 £285 1,014 3,460 5 Sc.)tland Pr sbyterians in Ulster 2OO 155 2,500 15,003 40 Established Church in Ireland 1,250 995 6SI 10,0 )0 1:3 to 14 Noble Lord and his Friends in their wish to divide the whole Church revenue of Ireland, nay, twice as much—if there were twice as much—among its Clergy. As far my mere personal inclinations are concerned, I should be quite willing to make the Clergy of Ireland, present and to come, as well off as myself—as well off as their learning, refined habits, pri vate excellence, and amiability merit.—( Hear, hear.) But what we have as legislators to consider is the circumstances of the case, the present 'state of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) And the question, therefore, comes to this—do the incomes which we assign to the future Clergy of Ireland, fill short of the in comes of the Clergy of the sister Church ?—(llear, hear.) In reference to this part of the subject, I shall have to trouble the House with a few statements of details By the Report of the tistruction CoMmissioners, it appears that there are 1,385 ecclesiastical bet - len:es in Ireland at the present time, but should a new distribution of ecclesiastical benefices take place, it is submitted that no necessity would exist for uphold.. ing so many benefices. We, therefore, propose to reduce the number to 1,250, with an average net income of 2941. 13s. 4d. Of these 1,335 benefices, we find that there are— THE SUN. LONDON, FRIDAY JUNE 3. M 6. Thus the Irish clergy will, by the proposed Bill, be paid better, and have less duty to perform, than the clergy in any other part of the empire. It appears by the report of the instructive Commissioners, that there are in Irelei - id 852,064 members of the Established Church. Provision has been made for 1,491 incumbents and curates of parochial benefices. Rejecting fractions, there will be one minister for every 571 Protestant individuals, exclusive of bishops and other dig nitaries of the Church ; and supposing each family to consist only of Protestant parents, two Protestant children, and one Protestant servant, there will be a minister of the Church for every 114 Protestant families. - Now I think that these are very fair and valid grounds for arguing that the amount of the income enjoyed by the Clergy of the Established Church in Ire land, considering the far less extent of their duties, and the com paratively limited number of their flocks, should not amount to as much on an average as that of other Established Churches, where the duties are more onerous, and the number of the flocks is greater : but in my much abused and calumniated Bill—in the Bill drawn up by the arch enemy of mankind (Ministerial laughter and cheers, answered by Opposition cheers)—in my Bill, so reprobated by the Hon. Member for Oxford, the amount exceeds the average amount in any of the other churches, while the extent of the duty will be less, and there will also be a great deal less of inequality in the distribution of the income.—( Cheers.) I do not speak of the Catholic clergy of Ireland, because it is well known to the House that they, like most other Dissenters, receive no thing at all from the state; but vvhen we are told with so much perseverance of our niggardly dealing with the Ministers of the Gospel, I think it is not quite fair to put out of consi deration that of those ministers of the gospel who have most of work on their hands, to them both this side of the House and the other side are content to assign nothing. I do not know that there are any other material points which I have not noticed. My Noble Friend stated as a great reason for not alienating any surplus from the immediate uses of the Es tablished Church, that there arc 505 benefices in Ireland without glebes. He states the number of chapels and churches at 1,594, and says we are reducing the benefices to 1,250. Now this includes the whole; and it is known that there are only 1,177 parishes in .Ireland which have churches. As re gards the arrangement of the benefices, a discretion is pro possd to be vested by my Noble Friend in the Privy Council. We have endeavoured to frame our measure so as to make it as little offensive as possible to the Protestants of Ireland. We propose to refer to the judgment of a Committee of the Privy Council, to be appointed not by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, but by his Majesty, he being the head of the Church, and wo have limited the members of that Committee to mem bers of the Established Church ; whereas my Noble Friend proposes, in certain cases, to vest the same responsibility not in a Committee—not in a selected Committee—but in the whole Privy Council.—( Hear, hear.) The Ecclesiastical Commissioners are to make their report to the Privy Council, and that Privy Council may at any time consist, not exclu sively, as now, of members of the Established Church, but even of a majority of the Roman Catholics.—(Loud cries of " Hear, bear, hear.") By the way, as regards the investment of so much authority in the higher functionaries of the State, I thought that the recent proceedings of our opponents bad shown they did Lest entertain so very sensitive a feeling.— ( Cheers.). My Noble Friend described the Fircall Union as consisting of six parishes, having a Protestant population of 1,115 persons, with five clergymen, and a joint income between them of about 3151. . Now, it is true that this Union does con sist of six parishes—that its population is 1,115 Protestants-- that there is a vicar and four curates--but instead of the income being 3151. a year, the income is no less than 1,800/. and up wards ; for exclusive of the 3151. arising from tithe composi tions, there are no less than 2,039 acres, plantation measure, in this union, viz. : 593 acres in Lynally, 52 8 acres in Killaghey, 450 acres in Ballyboy, 465 acres in Drurncullen and Eglish parishes, But. observe; that instead of this being a joint income between the five clergymen, the whole of th e revenue is taken by the vicar, who pays 74/ a•year to each of his four curates. And what effect will the provisions of the Tithe Bill have on this union ? It will be competent, if deemed advisable, to erect each of these parishes, with the exception of one, which has not any church, into. a separate benefice ; and as each of the four benefices will then contain more than fifty, and less than five hundred Protestants, to as sign to each incumbent an income in rent-charge to the amount of 2001. per annum,: and in glebe land to the amount of 45/., •so that, instead of one incumbent swallowing up all the re m)? amount to 9801, divisible in equal portions , and which venues, there will be four incumbents , whose j oint inco me will be an arrangement far more eligible both for the minis ters and the Protestants than the existing one. My Noble Friend described the archdeaconry of Dublin as consisting: of the Parishes of St, Peter and St. Kevin, having a poputition of 19,114, and including three perpetual eurecies—Rath. farnham, with a population of 990 ; St. Mary, Donnybrook, with a population of, 3,500, and Taisney, with a population o f e 95, making a total of 14,599 members of the Established Church I that is, a benefice employing sixteen clergymen and eleven churches, and yet it is treated as a mere single be nefice by myself. Why, it is true that it has been suf fered to continuo as a single benefice up to the present lime; but this is one of the very points which the Edclesi astieal Committee of the Privy Coueeil will have to take into c onsideration, namely, whether it should be suffered to eon. tinue a single benefice, or whether a more eligible distribution n 1 the component parts of it might not advantageously be made ; the present Bill proposes to correct the very abuse which has been suffered to exist up to this moment, of which my Noble Friend complains, and to.do that with the meet ,ads vantage to the Protestants, due regard'being had to the Minis. terial duties of the future incumbents, to assign them .a provi sion suitable thereto. The whole emoluments, arising from minister's money, tidies and globe, are taken by the archdea con, who pays to each of these sixteen curates a stipend of 751. per annum ; not one of these curates are perpetual cu• rates, as my Noble Friend conceives, they are mere stipendiary curates ; and by them the whole duties of this extensive benee five are discharged, the archdeacon himself having another be. D euce in the county of Kildare, where he resides for the most part ; and with respect to this benefice the Committee of Council will have the like power, as before, considering whether a more eligible arrangement might not be made, and of appropriating the income of the several incumbents in regard to the duties which they inay . have . to perform. Another case which my . Noble Friend cited was the town of Belfast, a single parish con taining 17,942 Protestants, while the income derived by the incumbent is just. 300/.,. and no more, Why this, and all ' other eit/ benefices, arc the very cases to which the provisions of the 'I ithe Bill so peculiarly apply. Should the remission of .301. take place, the incumbent of Belfast would - have only 2101. a year, and yet be obliged to support two curates 1 and supposing each curate to be paid the legal stipend of 751. a . year each, all the incumbent .would have for himself would he 60/. a year ; whereas, under the provisions of the Tithe Dill, the committee of council may and ought to assign him the maximum income of 5001. rent-charge, and 44/. glebe ; and, besides, they ought to allow him a stipend Ar ' lsl, for eiteh, and as many curates as they may consider so large and inn portant a Protestant population to require ; so th it the income of this bdncficc, instead of being 2101., with two curates' sti pends, eight be provided thereunto of 744 each the benefice ought to he made worth, as the lid; provides, 9941.—v4. -444/ to the itiourribent, and 74/. to each of his curates, the *tons bent providiug the rernaiisiug 251. to each curate out of big 4e,vii income. . Now, there is a plea which is consistently brought forward against all our proceedings and all our argue ments, the fesee of which I do not mean to evade, which is, that the necessary effect of our .own principles and of our own seasoning is to forbid us to stop where we are, and to carry us on much further. I never have assumed in arguing this onestion that our measure meets the whole case or `• l sounes t e entire grlCNiifli4e77 - A 11,3ar)_ T laut 1 do OX that i n a state o f t hi n g s suc h as is beferC us, u e 440 to 411 with affairs extremely involved,e complicated, and disordered; we have to deal with a state of things of loag prescription aad P'''!Ft'Fq! P-jrpirt.le,4 44041,tiq, which in sons w4y other mustc`mct—(l~eat, heari-•-ana4.dcof t p for• Ward tq suggest that which, according to first principles and strict rea soning, rnay . not be quite regular and r i g ht ; but we suggest thaf. • i sj-esees er s to es. tinder all the circumstances of the case, as an aeitlable`coinl l iroryilse Oil a resserat4e adjustmenh For this we are met with an angrsi outcry .a long re4§ts eneT—for this we are sub l iected to the imputation of every ceineeivAle base motive, and sre charged with an unworthy s bie:viency.—( A faint cry of " Hem !" from the Opposition ben ,hese which was replied to by tremendous cheering from tl e Ministerial side of the House. ) Thus it is that we arc drlv en, by the force of necessity, in self-defence, and in vin dieadon of our own character and conduct, to state the whole case. I will quote here a passage from a quarter most un friendly to our own view. The last Quarterly Review is good exhibited in this enough to remind me.that . we have t. a grand ret u r n f or 241 s p i a m ri ptt s' i lea st i t n etn l e r n e t la : nl, presenting the result ex Protestant landed property 2,023,257 Roman Catholic 71,404 Protestant Tithe composition L82,531 9 10 Roman Catholic 2,337 2 5 If these returns present any approximation to the truth, the Protestants possess more than nineteen-twentieths of the whole real property of the country ; and, we really believe, notwith standing the lowness of their numbers, nearly the same propor tion of every quality which constitutes superiority among man kind." Now, if I * leave the property_( Opposition cheers)- -and come to the population of Ireland—( Ministerial cheers)— ! find that the population is 7,943,00 Q, and that the members of the Established Church amount to 852,064. \Veil, then, Sir, for whom, for what class is it that the State provides spiri tual instruction and spiritual comfort ? That the State consi ders the spiritual-instruction and comfort of that class essen tial, the existence of an Established Church is the best proof. Hear)-S-but I ask again, for whom and for what is the provision made ? Is it not for the property, for the acres, for the mansion-house, for the rich, for the few ? and is not the provision made in such a way as to be of no avail to the poor. to the cabin, to the many, to the people?—( Cheering) Can I wonder that such a state of things has been a source of great dissatisfaction ?—( Hear, hear.) Can I won , IST that such a state of things is' at this moment a awe° of trouble to us ? Can I wonder that such a state of things has brought the Established Church into a position of decided danger? And when we come forward and show ourselves willing to lend our best assistance to remove the moat obvious points of weakness, to strengthenthiaaoparts which afford the greatest facilities for attack—when we recommend steps to bo taken for concentrating the natural strength of tha citadel, then the cry of trsai!hery is raised—( Cheer:)--=and we, who offer ourselves as auxiliaries and friends, find that everything possible is done by the party whom we are ready to defend, to confound Our exertions with the machinations of the enemy.---(Cheers.) I never pretended that if' we succeeded in carrying this, or any similar measure, it must have the effect of putting down all opposition, that it would secure universal acquiescence, or that it would prevent all future agitation of this subject. No, Sir ; in nothin g .human can we, or da r e we , say th at our procee di ngs shall be final. It is only for me to declare, that some such measure seems to be imperatively called for by the circumstances of the times,' and to offer the best prospect of giving peace to the c mmunity, and of supporting the Established Church. Looking to the past history of this question, looking also to the present state of Ireland, I cannot exclude from my mind the conviction that the Church of Ireland can be maintained in its present extent and on its present footing only by blood— ( Hear)—and that is a price too costly—l will not say for the truths of religion or for the grounds of faith—l will not so blas pheme the memory of the confessors and the martyrs—it is a price ,too costly, not for religion but for an establishment— ( Cheering)—not for the spirit, but for the form of worship. The learned and refined habits of the clergy no one is less disposed than myself to depreciate ; no one is mare disposed than myself to afford them-every possible encouragement on a more propitious soil ; but situated as the Church of Ireland now is—viewing her in what I cansider her most favourable aspect, and with the eyes of a Protestant churchman—seeing her in the midst of an unfriendly, a hostile land—knowing that she is surrounded by a people by whom her every imperfection is scanned with the severest criticism--I say, for the benefit, for the service, and perhaps for the existence of a Church so constituted, it is not enough that he should put away from her the pomp and trappings of the elders, or the luxuries of her followers or ministers, but she must not hope for more than will maintain her with efficiency—she must not hope for more than is sufficient to secure to her the due administration of the offices of piety ; and she should invite to her service men devoted, men constrained to the task by the love of it, and who would undertake it with no other motive. I believe that the Bill I have introduced is calculated to accomplish this salutary object, and that the substi tution of my Noble Friend is not. .The Bill I have proposed is an acknowledgement of the consideration due to the whole people, which the substitution of my Noble Friend is not, because it leaves the whole people entirely out of its regard. The substitution, then, of my Noble Friend, I believe not calculated to be what I hope mine is—a humble instrument to contribute to the zealous and efficient administration of the Protestant religion, and to the greater and higher objects of general charity, piety, and faith.—(The Noble Lord's return to his seat was followed by protracted cheering.) Sir J. GRAHAM said the present measure was a great improvement upon the Bill of last year, as regarded the sup press:on of benefices ; in the present Bill there were no bene fices suppressed. In the Bill introduced by the Noble Lord opposite last year, it was proposed to suppress benefices to a considerable extent. lethe present Bill it was intended that all Ireland should be divided into separate benefices, and that in each there should be a clergyman of the Established Church. In this respect, then, with the exception of a slight difference in the details, the two measures were the same. Of the present system of education in Ireland, he was bound to - say, this, that before they extended a grant for any such system, an inquiry into the manner in which it was conducted was absolutely necessary.—( Hear, hear.) He opposed the principle contained in this Bill, because he considered it fraught with mischief. If he found a man's hand in his pocket, although no money was taken' from it, was he to be told that because there was no robbery, no harm had been done. Spoliation must characterise any act which sought to take property vested for one particular use, and that sanc tioned by the Legislature, until it had been shown that the uses for which it was vested had been exhausted. The Noble Lord the Secretary of State had stated that he did not look to the truth of a creed, but to the increase of religious knoW ledge. Now, he considered that the Noble Lord was bound to state what was the religion and what were the doctrines he sought to propagate. If the State favoured any particnlar religion, if' it supported any particular religious system, then the NOble Lord should say what religion he was disposed to abide hy. The Noble Lord could not espape in generalities; but he was bound to partioelariae and define the religion he . was inclined to maintain, The Noble Lord, who had last spoken, said he had taken the maximum, but the nzarimani was not to be found in' the enactments of the Bill. Taking the provisions of the Bill into considera tion he should say, that instead of the clergymen re ceiving 295/. a year, the average amount of the bene ficces would be somewhat less than 1301. a year.—(Hear.) Wi.h respect to this Bill, he was somewhat surprised to hear his Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth accused of its having originated in a suggestion of his. Nothing could be more unfair than assuming that a hypothetical nrgment could be the f.n.indation fir such a measure 1 notating could be more unfair than ascribing 00 bantling to any Hon, Member on that side ar the House, The author of the Bill was clearly on the other side of the House. The author of the Bill was the Hon, Member for Middlesex. It was almost begotten by him in presence of the House.—(Hear and laughter.) He should quote the passage in his speech, It was this ; "He for one saw no'reason why they need hamper themselves with benefices at all." This is simply and accurately a description of this Bill ; and taking it, niutatis mutundis, it would answer for the title of the Bill itself. " Why could they not divide Ireland into districts, allot a clergyman to every place where there was a sufficient number of Protestants, commute the tithes, sell all the landed property of the Church, bring the whole of the proceeds into one general fund, and pay the stipends which were proved to bo necessary, out of it." The words to which he referred were used by the Hon. Member trey dieselt on the 22d of July, 1835. He ohjeeted to the power being given to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests of breakiiig up compositions, and this, too, for fourteen or fifteen years to , came, Let them take the case of a benefice of 1,0001, a year, The moment this Bill-comes into etfl'et, the income would be reduced by various deductions to 4501. 2s. 63. a year. lay the destruction, too, of the perishes, it was to be obierved, they removed all the landmarks of Protestant establishments in Ireland, and every thing relating to that establishment was left in inextricable confusion. There was very little difference between his Noble Friend and the Noble Lord as to the average amount of the income elergymen. One put it' down as 2951 , Ana the other as 2981. a year. Now, as to the Church of Scotland, he should observe, that there were twenty livings of which the inc was aoo. a year, ten of 6001., ten of 500/., m i l's tlac incomes varied from 150/. to 800/. The tleopurable Member for Middle. sex roimittpcl that 3 . 091. was not too large an income for tt clergyman who had duties to perform, In the Church Temporalities Bill, his Noble Friend had drawn the principle that below , 100/. a benefice should not be taxed. But then there was upon this subject the ar gument used, that justice should be done to Ireland. This was Et demand which was variously interpreted, at various pee nods. At one time, it merely meant freedom of religious worshiiL Justice to Ireland next called for the elective fran chise, then equality of civil sighta, then Reform ; and lastly, " Jogtiee to Ireland‘i made a distinct - demand for the revenues of the Nstablished Church.—( thins, hear, and cheers front the Opposition Members.) It had been said that the rent -3halge would be a burden imposed on the Catholic population. He had pressed his Noble Friend (Lord Morpeth) last session for a ret urn that would summarily show the total amount of acres in Ireland that would be subject to the composition, and the number of Catholics and Protestants having the tlrst estate of inheritance. But not having been able to procure that return, he was obliged to 4rolle from the relative number of clldualie and Protestant landlords, as they stood with roe speet sane of the dioceses of Ireland—Kilmore. In this diocese the itemiser of acres amounted to 357,00 0 ; and of these there were only 6,400 acres of which Catholi cs had t he first e s t a t e o f inheritance. The amount this di s t r i ct was 8 ,029 1 , and of' this sum 7, 9211 . was paid by Protestant testant landlords, and only 107/. of composition for paid by Catholic landlords.--( hear, hear.) Carrying that proportion, then, over the whole of Ireland, the number of acres would be found to Le 12,000,000, and only 201,680 of these were held hy be l Ca t4C ;1 ; j : y l i : el landlords.e p n tir d ia l o \ dl. there .. was s e svja any 1 1 1g n i:5 m u w n p t nut o l 4% f s ch c liiiPp pail sounds 9 i ! b 3eit Roman and ile would fallacy in it-, als.ay went the Ar., gunrt:t - tbat the Church was supported by Catheliea. It was !14:::::'111.1'italltetdr:IYC:1;tyoti;:t4nts and Iv protestant income.—(Op of tidies. Now that a p ll e - a w s • .1)91 ' 1)1 1 il1,190:41).• Tile great grievance now complained of theod n to ec t e h s e si p t ; payment e re n - t moviag thatgrievance, bow could it be said that it was a ltvel s shin which imposed s i n y, 9,n9, SP . entl . -. Idth nati ‘‘?. embeT or Waterford, ~ chair t, , . whom lie not `see in his place, ad imputed, tolsim the banat peasantry r agreed yicr e s a u s bi t to t Pletives. That Wm . Member stated t 4 110 ha suipiciou that disappointed ambition had led him to pursue the course which he had taken, and that if he were seated on the opposite bench, he would have taken a diffesent course. Now it did so happen that he had separated from his Hon. Friends now on the Ministerial side of the House when they were in the plenitude of their power, but he seated himself by them on that (the Opposition) bench when they were out of power. (Cheers, and cries of " Heart" from Mr. O'Connell.) The HJII. and Learned Member for Kilkenny seemed to doubt that assertion, or to think that it required qualification ; but the Hon. Member should not forget that when the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamwerth sat on the 'Freaesry bench he declined to sit with the Right 1-lon. Gentleman.— . (Cheer: from all sides.) So much for the baseness of his motives, and the disappointed ambition which had led him. to take the course which be had done.—(Opposition cheers,) He would bring under the notice of the House the opinion of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Heine Department, in 1833, when the 147th clause of the Church Temporalities Act was under consideration. That clause, as the debate then turned, first raised the question _whether the appro priation of some surplus should not be diverted from Pro testant uses to general State purposes ? NYitet, at that time, were the sentiments of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Heine Department? These were his words---" I am perfectly convinced that the discussion of this question must bring on a convulsion in this country.—( Loud and con tinued cheers from the Opposition.) slf that 1-Tee were to enter into a contest with the . 1Ions: 0 : - 1,0 rds it " s d lild for something worthscon+"" e be • —( Cheers continue . would now r“ - He ....scuss the question, which might at a future and 'no distant day arise, which the Noble Lord then put to the House ; but he would ask whether, upon the subject now under debate—the application of the suppesed surplus of 50,000/.—the Noble Lord did not take a course by which lie seemed to think in 1836 that convulsion which he declared in 1833 was a matter which could not be justified.—( Opposition cheers.) If the House, said the Noble Lord, enter cn a contest with the House of Lords, let it be for something worth contending for. The present was but the shadow of a claim to prosecute what would be risking the_peace and tranquillity of the country for the sake of an abstract principle.----( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) Although the House of Com mons was, doubtless, the stronger of the two branches of the Legislature, y e t h e hoped they would use their power with temper and - moderation.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side.) There were some Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side whom the Noble Lord then proclaimed—he would not do so—as having supported the clause of that Act, because if it were carried, they hoped to have the Bill thrown out else where, an event which the Noble Lord thought they looked forward to with no inconsiderable degree of satisfaction.— ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord proceeded—" He could understand the arguments which had been used that night, proceeding as they did from those who in discussions in that House had paid but little regard to the general security of property ; but for himself, he was of opinion that the country could not stand a revolution once a-year. (Vehement cheers from the Opposition.) Under the present circumstances of the country, they were all bound to make sacrifices to preserve the peace and tranquillity of the country and the general security of property. Although others may be for convulsion in Ireland I am for peace."—(Renewed Oppo sition cheers.) He recollected being struck by an observa tion which the Noble Lord ( Melbourne) used on one of the last occasions on which he had addressed that House. It was in 1826, in opposition to a motion for Parliamentary Re form, and the Noble Lord replied to a very able speech which bad been delivered by the President of the Board of Control, in which he argued that Parliament was the safeguard of the Constitution ; and that if he thought Reform would have the effect of changing the form of our Government, he should op pose it as much as any man. He well remembered Lord Melbourne replied to this effect:—" All these disclaimers are very good ; but my cx;:erience shows me that they are not to be relied on ; for in politics it so happens that people get what they don't want, and want what they do not get."—( Hear, hear, bear, from the Opposition.) He begged to direct the attention of the H ouse to t h e evience given before a Committee of the House of Com mons by Dr. M'Hale, as rewesenting the sentiments of the Irish Catholic hierarchy, with respect to the Established Church. Dr. M'Hale said that he had no doubt that honcl-, would be paid, according to St. Paul, where honour w s d ue, and tribute be given to those to whom tribute was ; imply ing by such language that as lon g as tithe e: as t h e l aw of the land it would continue to be pai. - New let the House con. trast these sentiments with a letter written by the same indi vidnal in 1834, in which he said " that after paying the land lord's rent, neither to parson, proctor, landlord's agent, or any other individual shall I continue to pay a penny of tithe or any other tax which shall go to the support of the greatest nuisance in the civilized world."—(Cheers from the Opposition.) So that whatever concession was made, there was no chance of a cessation of agitation, because, according to Dr. M'Hale, it could never cease until " - the greatest nuisance in the civilized world was altogether abolished."---(Cheers.) The Church might have a breach made in it ; it might be about to fall ; but be for one, be the consequences what they might, would declare when he was called upon to let the Establishment crumble into dust, and the British Constitution which rested on it, and which was mainly supported by it—he would, he repeated, in the language of Lord Bolingbroke, declare that when " truth and reason and the cause of liberty fall with it, the men who are buried in the ruins are happier than those who survive them."—( Opposition cheers.) Mr. SHEIL—The Right Hon. Baronet has concluded a speech in favour of religion arid of the Constitution by quoting an Atheist and a Tory.—(Loud cheers.) He has indulged in a dissertation upon property, which is to be lamented that the Cumberland yeomen did not hear, in order that he may henceforth correct his erroneous notions on that subject. Two measures have been proposed ; the one by a Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, who has won our confider ee, attachment and respect; the other by A Noble Lord who was Secretary for Ireland, and whose biography constitutes a calamitous por tion of the history of Ireland. The one proposes appropriation ; the other, distribution. " Between which should we elect ? The plan to which appropriation is an incident provides a sur plus ; the plan which has distribution in view leaves no surplus to ho applied. It is evident that the latter is framed so 49 to avoid'the creation of the surplus. But is there one ? Let the statistics of the country be consulted. There arc six hundred thousand Presbyterians, eight hundred and fifty thousand Episcopal Protestants, and six millions six hundred thousand Roman Catholics. . In one archdiocese there are only forty thousand Protestants, and there are, one million eight hundred thousand Roman Catholics. What more need be stated in order to prove that a surplus exists, and that the existing system cannot be maintained ? It has been suggested by the Noble Lord that the inferior Proteateet Clergy are now paid in a manner disproportioned to their merits and services; for my part, wherever reel aerviees are to be performed, I am not only willing, hut enxions that a clergyman should be ade quately tviwart.ted; but where there is no congregation I do deuire to see an useless ecclesiastic, no matter to what re ligion he may be attached. But when did the Noble Lord, who now advocates new distribution, first bethink himself of the poverty of the Protestant Clergy? When did he first give way to these feelings of commisseration in favour of the wretched curate and the family depending on him for sus tainment ?—( Hear, hear.) He never proposed any measure for their relief until the demands of millions have urged this great question to the issue to which it has edesneed. Ile says that he never can or will consent to it. I never expected, indeed, that he would divest himself of the fatal pertinacity which characterises him, and which has been the source of so much calamity to the Country that 'eel .so long abandoned to his conical,The mars who °mild without remorse witness the fatal results of hti-relaerable legislation must indeed be in capable of penitence i but he is mistaken in supposing that his colieeet Is necessary to the achievement of this great naF%- SW, Does the Noble Lord recollect by what expedient the 1 -Cabinet of which he was a Member carried the Reform Bill? and if that measure was accomplished, its results, its inevitable results, of which this is one, will by the same instrumentality be achieved. There are a class of questions which cannot trograde, which cannot continue stationary, and which roust needs go on. Of this character wag the Slave question, the Catholic question, the Reform question. Of this class is that which the Irish millions, returning to this House a vast majo rity of the representatives of ??eland, never will relinquish. In 1824, this question Vo.f, first pressed . to a division by the Mem ! her fee Middlesex. In the minority the names of Hobhouse, of Rico, and of Russell are to be found. .They saw even then that the concession of this right to Ireland was indispensable for her peace. The Member for Cumberland has quoted a speech of the Secretary for the Home Department in 1833, to prove that he was opposed to a new appropriation ; but that speech referred to the 147th clause, and to a contin gent and improbable surplus in the Church Temporalities Bill, and not to a surplus, definite, substantial, palpable, like that which' will result from the contemplated measure. It may be said that the Noble Lord, as well as the Secretary for the Home Department, has been consistent. 116 has been in deed, obstinate in his adherence to a detail, but his general po licy has with that detail been most incongruous. The instant the Reform of the Parliament was proposed in England, the Reform of the Church was with the same loud voice impera tively required in Ireland. The excitement which arose in one country on the question by which he was most deeply interested, soon extended itselt to the other, on the grievance by which it was most sensibly and painfully affected. Down, cried England, with nomination in Parliament; down, cried Ireland, with sinecurism in the Church ;—perish Gatton and Old Sarum, cried the people of this country ;—perish the abuses, answered the Irish m illi ons , which nothing; but Old Sarum and Gattan could maintain. How, indeed, was it possible that the popular agitation which pervaded one country, should not have been communicated to the other? How could Ireland remain in apathetic contemplation of the greet scenes which were passing in this country? Yet the Noble Lord, who himself administered to the provocation of the popular passions in England, aqd the Right Hon. Baronet conceived that they could play the Gracchi or referen of the .Parliament, and complain of sedition, when Ireland demanded in the same right the reform of the Church. At the opening of the session in 1834, a moan; important disclosure took place. It was proved that the Marquis of Anglesea had, so far back as 18 14 , written a dispatch to the Cabinet, insisting on appro priation, as indispensable for the settlement of Ireland ; and thus, while the Irish Secretary was exclaiming against all con cession, that distinguished Nobleman was bearing to the ne cesisity of this great measure his incalculably important attes tation the question thus every day gained ground. The Member for St. Alban's at length gave his celehraeo no tice. The matter was brought to issue leeteseen the par ties in the Cabinet, as it is at +Jeie moment between the two branches of the Leeieletere, and the celebrated Church Commission `,eftkali."' The Noble Lord perceived alit ti.;e people were counted, the days of ecclesiastical abuse would I,)p nu,mberoel. He saw that app ro pri a tion was ill- 1 . v...ed thatUstist lead to it, and h e resiese fel'c leerCl grey bithied him, What inference dvilacc.o if khq N 44 1 44 l oni. resk ,s thence to °dation was founded 1,014 2,770 `2,5"6 6SI 10,873, 0 00 2,510,000 50 ',OM Kr2,R64 `. Snn Sty on one princile, Lord Grey's retention of o te a c rooter principle, have equally rc stsd. Wh ,•Istyereirkslisl ", the Noble Lord refer so repeatedly last night its k -A..qr.tekel,e' Whit did be d es ir e t o i nt i ma t e ? A ga i ns t an narantlact:. „s winch he meant to convey, let the church commis ofisu sr* by Lord Grey be appealed to. The Melbourne Cabinet is forned—disSolved in a moment of royal misapprehension of the state of Ireland. The Right Ilonourahle Member for Tamworth c imea in, announces the_ non•appropriasien as the bas's of his policy, is struck down by the resolutien moved by • the Noble Lord, and out of the ruins of his AdroitilstratiOn furnishes a nes proof of the riecessny of making this great and paramount concession to the power by which that Adminise tration was laid prostrate. The Melbourne Cabinet send - up their Bill to the Lords. It is lost ; but are the Government shaken, or in the least affected by it? No; a resolution of the Commons annihilates a Ministry in an instant; and fb the Lords the Cabinet bii defiance. Who, _then, will deem it Matter of doubt . by whom the victory will b e won, if , i ndeed, to an encounter the two Houses should onheppily he driven ? Take that single fact; not go t 4 remote periods or tionable examples ; look at the (Act-,t within your intoted‘, 4te recollection, at that which IS passing this moment none . e eyes, and away with till Ara on the part of the 7,„ ep i a, and with all confidennn no the part of their antagorl sts I Th e ses. sion of 1 ,4 G" ei . closes; '-• and mob-eland ev(r.',s arise which e xhibi t ...,e fatal impoliey of the Lords in o new and remarkabl e li g h t. This tithe question, which had before been so productive of disaster, generates a series of new evils. The writ of rebellion is issued ; the law officers appear before the Chief Baron and his brethren, to opeosethe employment of the police in the execution of these writs ; the executive is discomfited by the Court, and the Chief Baron .becomes virtually the master of the whole constabulary force. Is this state of things to con tinue ? -As yet, indeed, there has•been no violent outrage, because the people look to the settlement of the question, and entertain the strom)est confidence in the Government but if the question continues unadjusted, and there is but one mode of effecting it, I shrink, I own, from the contemplation of the cons •crnees. A single, a most painful fact, will illustrate the - state to which things have arrived. Not long ago, a letter aidressed by me to the clergyman of my parish, was pro duced in this House. I made no complaint of its produc tion, nor of the steps taken by the Rev. Gentleman to instr his tithe. I have recently learned that he has applied, to the Government for the protection of the police in going every Sunday to church, in order to secure him from any outrage to which he may be exposed, and accordingly he proceeds every Sunday to church, accompanied by the police. I not • only condemn, but I denounce as detestable, any attempt to offer him violence, or affront; but while I denounce it, I can not avoid deploring the political circumstances of a country, of which these lamentable incidents are the symptoms. There is not a Protestant State in Europe but this, in which a propo sition so preposterous as that Church property is inalienable, is asserted. Look to Scotland when an effort was made to inflict episcopacy upon her (how full is her history of the phi losophy which teaches by example), .and look at her after her national religious rights had been asserted. Noble and enviable country ! She has won victories in civilisation. Her agriculture has climbed to the summit of those bills whose heather was once red with her martyrs' blood • the, palaces of her inl.ustry ascend on the banks of every frith ; her estuaries are covered with navies that bear the prodoce of her labour to the remotest marts ; in every seien.ze that exalts and expands the mied—in every art tbct cheers and embellishes. existence, Scotland has made the tritest important contiibutions to the happiness of mankind. res . ut, alas ! when from the contemplation of the splendid soectacle which Scot land exhibits I turn to my own unfortursate country, my heart sinks, I confess, within me in the melancholy conscioustiess in which every Irishman, no mater what may be his creed, ought to participate. But if Ireland does exhibit this fatal contrast—if in a country treat ought to teem with abundance, there prevails wretchedness without example—if millions of paupers are without employment, and often without food or raiment—where is the fault? I; it in the sky that showers vers. lure?—is it in the u?;, that is surpassingly fertile ?—or is it in the fatal course n...nich you, the arbiters of her destiny, have aeoeted ? has for centuries belonged to England; England has usen' her for centuries as she pleased; how has she used bcne and what has been the result ? A code of laws , :ias esta blished, to which in the annals of legislative atrocity there is not a parallel ; and of that code, those institutes of unnatural as cendancy, the Irish Church is a remnant. But although that detestable policy was without example, it has sinee been chosen as a model. Well did Nicholas exclaisso when he perused the debates (as I have heard) in this House, on his frightful tyranny to Poland, well did he exclaim, " Poland is Russia's Ireland." He confiscates as your fathers did ; be banishes as they did ; he debases as they did ; he violates the instincts of human nature, and from the parent tears the child, as they did; and he inflicts upon a -Catholic people a church alien to their national habits, feelings, and belief, as you do. And think you not that there are men found in the Senate of St. Petersburg, who exclaim that the Greek Church must be maintained in ascendancy in Poland—that it is the bond of connection between Poland and Re ssia—that Greek_ priest, dispensing hospitality, and holeiing out a salu tary example by the excellence of his more:, conduct, must in every Polish village be the source of im.provement ? and can you doubt that some Tartar Secretary for Poland—( Loud cheers)—is sufficiently prompt to ftscnish the materials for a Warsaw speech, and to exclaim eaat a lesson must be given . to Poland, and that she must lee taught to fear, before she can learn how to love?—( Lo' d and continued cheering.) Y ou all exclaim the Russian policy is not only wicked but insane. Is English policy commendable and wise? You cannot hope to proselytise us through the means of the Establishment. You have put this experiment to the test of three centuries. If the truth be evith you it may be great, but in this instance it does not sustain the aphorism, for it does not prevail. Yet 'nave tried everything. First,. penal codes, then found ling hospitals, and charter schools (those norseries for Cor porations), afterwards Kildare-street ‘Societi e s ; but these also you ha ve a b an d one d ; an d even the. - Noble Lord opposite, with all his scriptural addictions, seed although he be the _author of a work on the Parables for the use of children (I wonder what he says about t l ee Pharisee)—( A laugh)--still so convinced was he of t t .ie futility of all attempts at our conversion, that lie himOelf introduced that system which is so erroneously designated by his present auxiliaries, as the mutilation of the Word of God. How can re ligion advance soiti i police, process servers, and Commis sioners of rsebellion for its missionaries ? Recollect what argumern e s, or , if you please, what sophisms these abuses stioply to its opponents. Have not the rival clergy an oppor tunity of asking whether it is in an aeeldama that the vine yard of the Lord should be planted ? Whether they are, indeed the Ministers of Christ who, while they inculcate the reading of his Word, enter the field of massacre with the Gospel, as an implement for swearing a distracted mother over the body of her child that lay dead and stark before her, and whether they are, indeed, the priests of the living Grid, who with the hands that. distribute the sacramental cup, and putthe bread of life into circulation, load the instruments of homicide, and then turning sentimentalists, with fingers dripping with hu. man blood, wipe their tears away I These, you may say, are exaggerations : take means that your Church do not afford too many opportunities for their indulgence. But if in a religious view the Establishment, as it is constituted, cannot conduce to the interests of religion--in a political view, what purpose does it answer? It is said that it cements the union. Cements the Union At this moment it disturbs the foundation of the Legtsrature, brings both Houses of Parliament into collision, and to its centre shakes the constitution. —(The - Hon. and Learned Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheers.) • As soon as the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary sat down, tha debate, on the motion of Mr. BROTH E RTON, was adjourned to this day. The remaining Orders of the Day were thee disposed of, and at a few minutes before one o'clock this morning, the House adjourned. FONERA L OF THE DUKE OF GORDON.-ThiS morning the remains of the Duke of Gordon were removed from his House for the purpose of being carried down to toe family vault in Aberdeenshire. The body was to be carried down to Greenwich, where . the Firebrand Government steamer was prepared for the purpose of conveying it down to Scotland. The processiOn was opened by six mourners on horseback—then followed several companies of the 3d Grena dier Guards, of which regiment the Noble Duke was Colonel —the Band playing, the Portuguese Hymn, and the soldiers with reversed arms—then came the Coronet of the deceased, borne upon a cushion by a man on horseback ; he was followed by the hearse containing the body, and ten mourning coaches ; the Duke of Richmond chief mourner. Then followed three of his Majesty's carriages, and one from each of the other branches of the Royal Family ; they were followed by another party of soldiers, and the procession was closed by a dozen pri vate carriages of the Nobility, mostly Dukes. NEW SERIES OF TII E OLD MEN'S TALES...--- Those who remember the sensation produced by " The Old Men's Tales," will know what to expect from the appearance of the New Series now in course of publication. Speaking of that extraordinary work, the " Quarterly Review" observed, " Upon us the impression of these Tales was such as we re collect to have received from the novels which we stole and secretly read in the days of our boyhood ; we found them inte resting and affecting' to a degree which made us begin again to think the serious occupations of life were weary, stale, flat and unprofitable." General Lord Ludlow is to be appointed to the 3d Regiment of Guards, vacant by the death of the Duke of Gordon. Lord Ludlow is a very old 'eneral officer, and has always been a steady and consistent Liberal. He lost his arm while serving with tie Guards in Holland, and. afterwards commanded u brigade of Guards throughout the campaign in Egypt. G.meral Ross, now Governor of Guern sey, is to have the vacant regiment, and Major-General Mice is to be appointed Lieutenant-Governor of -Guernsey in his place. Exc USE FOR A Ho LI DAY.—The Winchester ( American) Republican has the following neat article " Our office has not been cleaned for two years. In order to begin the Sear like civilized people, we have determined t o have a general cleaning, to wash and scrub the faces of our types, and to put a fresh shirt on our devil, &c. In conse we have issued only a half s h eet t hi s week. " r quence of these doings, and to allow all b an d s a c h ance of ystem which i ncu l cates aka keeping Christlnat, per 4 st incncc from intoxicating liquors, o r i g i nate d with a ma - - r . -- rt s term,tiie which is nse d by tern— nFoo : L.t o designate-r named Turner, a member of the Preston Temperance S „h o , having au impediment of speech, iu addressing a „I' ing, remarked, that abstinence from • nv - intoxv, a ting liquors would not ; they must insist upon tee.+ t 1 abstinence. .ec-to a - - ...atm from Trieste say that the choler). disappeared there, but th a t a ma li gnant jaundie- has succeeded, which has already a ssume d t h e c h aracter c f an epidemic, and had carried off several persons, had nearly R r4 1\1: ~'a ; N; . s t~ _.~... rte' ~fi 7`: ' i I roe 10,718 2001 I ,250:.