The Sun. — London, England, 1838-08-04 00:00:00

hat i" f i 13C tat: „frif ly e toti°ll cSV/ rc the Ito 136. J3il l d to* . -go" th t b l e i 1, sti wed tj $ tb° 31 ` . O la I, ~iltY co..- . 4 LreQsc ua tit il l Ltics' ftha" L,' l "° l ' f t le 00 1W etit i°" "C 501, Coq?' ; strel° " der the Reform Act, and in favor r of the Regstration Act naw before Parliament. Ou the notion of Lord t_IROUG HAM, the She rill's' Ad 'yo. atien Bill was reed a third time and passed. Lord BROUGHAM eai4l..he Con;mittee on the t'aiso ns lie : (Scotl an d) B ill had age ee-1 to a report, which now pre. s ted. It h a d been gone throu g h with t;'en heen rcate: t care, and trusted the amen.dinents woeld , meet with u.nininious g adoption. Th e Earl of INNISKILLEN presented petitions from Sunderland an' other pleees a7ainst the encoeinEement of idolatrous we: Olin in India. TITHES (IRELAND) BILL. Lord NIEL It . . a) URN E moved thee the paragraph i her Alliesty's epe:ch relating to this subject be read. T hie hay; ng been done, Iliis Lonnsuir moved that the House go into Committee on Litt, hill. Itnves not his intention to addre‘s the fleu t s i e o a l t s any very were of grt_!ilt. temeth on the present occasion. W"e"qUt tTiem matter of rery •araat difficulty, it was better not to make . 3 ' ,1 1 1 ' rfluous discus ion. He should,. thereter . e,. refrain , c fr e c s im . . (11 'cititig On any of these great questions of . ci,il and cc I i ".I, tical polity with which the question was intrrilatelYc_..7o7.(ilc.t.epa;, tic should confine himself to the Bill before their I ct '':, and a general statement of its provisions. The great principle of the Bill was to convert the tithes into A career., c o liar i ge n_ taa able to the person who held the nrt e eritanee. It was not for him to point out—it front the was obvious to their Lordships that to relieve the occupying tenant liability of discharging his tithe, and tothivie;rvy respect theclis movecharge a , f wh at was due on those who were in e able, i n every respect more upon those who were few ild unquestionably put in number and hi g h er i n stat i on , wo 40 end to, an d c l ose t h e un f ortunate discords and tumults that had arisen from this cause in Ireland, or at least would put an . end to them in th e f orm i n w hi c h th e y h a d hitherto e.x4‘sted This was t h e great pr i nc i ple and object of this Bill, There 'sere two other p o i n t s w hi c h were new, and which had not Leen adverted to in the former measure on this subject. These it 'were the provi s i ons w ith respect to t h at pration of the mi ton which had been advanced under the Act of the . ear 1533, for the re li e f o f t h e c l ergy of I reland ; and also the provision . with respect to the arrears of the tithes that had accrued du e during the last four years, and during the unfortunate difficulties which had been met with in the reelection of tithes.—( Hear.) It was perfectly obvious th a t un l ess they closed up a ll quest i ons with respect to th e arrears , the y they pet an end to all collection of those arrears in that country, they wauld not be giving this measure fair P l ay* and they vron.',d not be taking the hest means for ac.; Pony, the anal in view. If they left the arrears still_ tue collected lei the clergy from the occupying tenant they Could atioaukled not it ; rualae th e measure so complete as they rougttt they would not be giving a fair chance o it. accom plishing the beneficial object which they expected from 113 : t hq clause, therefore, of this Bill the Lord Lieutenant emitt powered, and not only empowered but directed, to r t i o the Clee v the instalments due from them of the hiillion which had been advanced to them, and thus exone iti;te them from the necessity of levying it from_ thoseb whom it was due. With respect to the residue of the . million aWauich amounted to about 260,0001., certain sums having been , -4 ,:aneed to the Clergy, and certain sums having been ap ,V.Priated to other purposes, it was proposed to apply this i si , Li we to the satisfaction of the arrears according to the . t a a ` tt s of the titheowners with respect to the arrears accruing a u B t 37 44 rl i ng the last four years, namely, 1934, 1835, 1936, and 'to b . ' t was to be remitted only to the clergy, and was not the land rc'inittad to those lay impropriators who possessed both re a - d . „ 4n _ d ec atid tile tithes, .nor to those , clergymen who had al that ready ewe(' from their debtors that portion of the tithes li o 3 due to them. It was impossible to go into calcula tions(lo this subject, and he would therefore refrain from b i 1 1.6 sh• He had some calculations that had been made, i tt - "„% c u tv r a . s rather fearful of future calculations, particularly in t for the ib _ .e. ti.. nary matters, as he knew they were very apt not to ' a i stifled by the result. It had, however, been supposed last four fears 500,000/. was due upon the 4 2 4i nn "lit saf tithes, and about 0 70,000/, previously. By the et e o oo/ d ie ', together with the sums that had been received and at were to be received from lay impropriators, it b, - "' N:posed that they would raise 500,000/., which would kb sufficierat to pay the clergy about 70 per cent. upon 1 'se arrears. This was the calculation which he understood ti ad o be ert made - but he begged, however, not to be un er°°4 as making himself responsible for its present ac- Those' Pur se or as pledging himself as to its future result. wh at provisions were new, and it was perfectly evident t i_ t ;vere the grounds and object of introducing . them into 10 Wesent Bill. Whatever objections might be urged to 4Z, those objections . were overborne by the greater ativan- th e ' a nd, in present circumstances, the necessity of them for a . Welfare and the beneficial operation of this measure. He 0-llnnot know that it was necessary for him to make any other su i:vrvtio _,..a e sitt a ,— med to carry into n upon the other clauses ofl only framed Bill, which were gay to the main object, and i o d n already stated to their ret those principles which he la Wships But there were unquestionably b certain clauses Ir e, •. r-leh Were not new, which they had ad in . all the Bills wh a i e c l b lt , 11 14 13 f ro!n the House of Commons on this subject, and to e4t their. Lordships very well knew, very great objections were , ertained by many Members of this House—he meant those clauses whi c h provided, in certain cases of excess, in certain se s of all e ged fraud, in cer t a i n cases o f m i sta k e and want „„ c are, for the re-opening and re-consideration of the corn . - , r-s ition for ti t h es as i t at present existed. He knew dna lhas v ery much objected to as unnacessary, as breaking into 'iladrliirsven . e°l7o . 4 r i y ag san a e n ti d o n Il e i . e d r e e d t ' h u e ic p rot erne.rnweelOryen , ri a p n p i ing up contracts founded upon which had been solemnly de that irthaanyother hand, it was perfectly certain cases in which these compositions beyond the mark, and beyond the real value of the property, in which they hail been made with Very great carelessness and neglect, and where, in con sequence, very great excess prevailed in the amount with which the land was charged for tithe; and it was generally admitted that, with respect to certain class of compositions, thc'se which had been compulsorily formed under the Act c!trarnonly called Lord Stanley's Act, at a time when great vteAence existed on one side, they had been carried into effect Zithout that care which was required, and whether the charge t. 'id been mad e f a i r l y or unfairly in those cases, unquestionably a flan been c ompositions cou ld not b e re li ed upon as being in any "egree fair representatives of the property which they were in ettded to assess and to represent. Upon these grounds, he Ill ight say st e , -a extraordinary grounds, those Clauses were intro -4 L ed which gave to a certain number of persons, possessing - 6 eer tain portion of composition, the right to apply for a re ,v-,-," and r econsideration of the contract upon certain alleged te n i s - k ! T e cifi.o grounds mentioned in the Bill, namely, want of r. 4,, excess, fraud, and misrepresentation in the beginning and 4:4 Cis formation of the contract. He knew very well that they 1411blittt have tsto introduce a principle of this sort, because there bat been one or two exorbitant or extravagant cases ; la- -ante time, if there had been a great deal of remiss alifi"erif t he tountry suffered under these charges, as it did . I s ,he trusted that upon a fair consideration the House would " dia r , fully -"es ed t o sanction the revision of those contracts, care e,_,. i guarded and secured as su c h rev i s i on was b y t h e B il l . leo t l i e were the principal provisions of this Bill, and he did to r n?." whether i t was necessary for hint to trouble their upo n with any pu bli c o b servations upon them or was ' an Ything co nnecte d with them. He knew nothing e a , s rcore dangerous than to anticipate anything like sue trier upon any measure. He knew alto that nothing was • Cu e eu4 : )s s ! or more likely to end in disappointment, than or tiaZh.e!'estlcata anything like supposed contentment _ c `ltd . t - 0 -I , ll ttY ; but he begged leave to say, that although h kinn e i; il raw any flattering- picture of that description, yet L ord , ig that he lied himself the same object as all their t his it i lps had in view, he presented to their considerate 2 o 'en the present occasion, as the best and most prudent aet;ltnieli it was possible to hope for success under pre- Thoeine'reanietances. The Noble Viscount concluded by Ti t h - R that the House resolve itself into Committee on the Les (Ireland ) Bill. Vi, c ' rc i 1 . 3 80UG HAM—If I could agree a ith the Noble hi; aunt' not merely in the opinion with which he conclud an ed . thi,,Taross, that this is the best Bill that could be framed, _d_ ha..,:` is the measure most likely to attain the end we all . t ,„` 'n view with respect to Ireland under with mere 'ti . "act, and particularly if I could agree asatn the obse , rv . a h, t °ll with which the Noble Viscount commenced his speech, te at :r'the subject matter now before you 'sad been so often . al- HiY discussed as to make it superfluous TO meet again points "'llt had been so frequently dealt with and decided, my pre e , r't task would indeed be reduced within limi:s snore corn of at once with my own inclination and the patience '',! Your Lords.bins. But it is because Ido not take that .t e l l " : , i n f this measure with which the Noble Viscount's speech ° • -c ui had it i becau s e I know—for this is no matter of e erti„3 .5 the. T:' i t is matter of fact—it is because I also know that ratel-01:11,1 Viscount has misstated, doubtless from not accu ,,4( ft:ere: ll min ,, the relative position in which he now les.: l :' a nd in whic% he formerly stood e hen this question was duty the tlouse, that I feel it to be my indispensable ir, t 'h' i : t from which I may rot shrink, to ester my protest h th ete e ' tt s a t i ta u ge d , , i i n tm wh s i o c , h I hive had an opportunity, in de mid of expressing my dissent, and Vetnea'rta ,off that dissent, front the measure of the Noble 11 :it te ;:. As to any picture that can be drawn prospectively, ea g t o , hat 10111 the hop,s of those who are its friends, 01. as toatly tleapb, t or sketch that might he given by those who, .feeling ittiv er , 'PPreb cosh- e of the consequences, avow themselves its hs th e t . les, I purposely, for the present at least, would abstain, cle llili 2\ ot:dc Viscount has done, from any such expressions, s rai se ,n_ti It generally rather rash, inasmuch as . expectati f on. c 0,,, : ., !e often disappointed, and fears entertained as re rarnaT afterwards prove to he unfounded. But there is one wai, l l ' nf the Noble Viscount's in which I entirely agree, in 1 04 ; ' the Nali`e Viscount said that celculations were (lenge- Ivai ti al well as prospec.ive sketches, and that these calculations fr uat I w ere Wade of what wa s to happen in future were very often a,, r r ated by the event. This Bill, rue; Lords, at once gives a i t Y remarkable instance of the truth of the proposition, and L or i ' d i tlte first. of the grounds which I have, stated to your ce ss i BQl l)s for not feeling it possible to retire from the dig. cession of this subject, namely, that it is not the measure we No,e,lorrnerly discussed. The calculation is this. When my e,,e°,lll_ hriend, Lord Althorp, with nay entire coneurrence as a ',' i,, her of the same Government with himself and the Noble tilt; Vise propounded the rniliion advance to the 11-,11 Church, „a'.,eseculation ( te we the phrase or the Noble Viscount) then c`lai?,..thet it avas'a loan, and the eapeetation raised by that cal. ad `llleti necessarily followed, that like other loans, the parte otlylning it was to have a claim of repayment ; and also like 1,1'4 erecliters, the repayment was sooner or later to take wna 4 ,s eLle v yante d payee in the calculation—the Church to whom it ; or if it were not advanced to the Church, but ° l :3' to relieve the payers of tithes, namely, the Irish land as ',/_".B, that after a time ttiese Irish landowners would repay, t . l It stilted their convenience, but still sooner or later repay ia '' ''' lc tlY so advaaced. 7 - ell n - .Ezht the Noble 7 izeourit eay, tieepeeine the measure to-night, as a generel prop(e'ation, 4Tt C aleda.tiona are not always rcaliz , :d, for it is Lot above four i years since th a t estleteletioY, As instituted, and with that result ; and we tsee e.Oas tSlah'verting the loan into a gift, and at the time i wieess. At had well hoped that the• repayment of ,the ni'llion Might ha ve b een e ff ecte d, i nstea d pf 5.:V%...5 !i•eis'estneht we have been favoured with cenectestssa, Iin ( 0. what was a lean we are to abandon et once e4SI rer.ever. Now, 'therefore, I have a right to .sees taet 11S!a is not the ineasnre.whi t eli liesbeen so often iaarH~ before.—that this i not the P'''4.ll',6 argument ietn which we hate already c'at'ad—'that they who appreved of the forrrer measur :';ay most consistently, as they do con scientiously, din'.l . ';i:rove of this measure. But that measure Isinned. egainst n ) prineiple, and, if I am not tenth deeeived, I shall satisfy some at least of those AO agreed with me in patronising that measure ; that the present measure sins against all. My Lords, so much for the changes in the Bill as re gards wintt is still in it ; but a great (deal hat been left out. The Bill wants the jewel in the head of the ft mer measure— I find nothing of that ...I-itch mainly recommended the former measure. I sec a blank in that portion of the Bill which in former times tonteined all that smoothed the path. to the sup port whic'e many a man gave ite peel, at all events, to that a hie's) chiefly Made iiiik. , .y Who desir e d muc h mo r e res t ' satisfied with flit;11111e that was then bestowed. I allude to what ts•es Mninonly edict' the appropriation clause. What 1 tk ls t e ld s, i t tl t.,,,hie,hnatmoesonyf i s t v a l i t . ; , ,o e tt n e , k_l l ,, it i l l th t‘ e .h e .t n h me 9f c9llSistes e. - of principle—whet it it Ow 'ss alll ..... I add in the name :,11.71eetritilnr4t1: t e7es t e t n ' t expunged the appropriation ing eves t 'Area Per it in Vain. present e t" nt:ll o s ,,, i ai l ,,e4 i t ; e a tthos hin *IW tc4h ( L ' la Je, v i .4 i; g 1 ). e who eret is approvednot i nothing it on principle—there to libthing to comfort my Noble Friend the Secretary fief the Home - Department, one of Elie tteest strenuous eSiVecates for that rinciple) l'_ , ol,h. 111 the Cabinet, svity''‘ 1 ',sad th e h onour of sit. T .tie ‘.'iith him, and out of the teltshinet, and i n the centAree ?steA g in his writings, and in hie ,nt._ t speeches, and in hits InotiOns in the other Notest Of tkafila m I saUtS i eter.) N o c omfort ha* Oibt: hi! or i in look ing Ktthe provisions of this , ewes:tingled, new. fashioned Bill appropriation is ns tsessea. passed over—as much given to the winds —as absekklely and is entirely abandottedseeste if it had never beers Inentioned, or the name covet` Coined, or the word derived from the Latin, or tliV_ thing never debated in the ' ether House of Perlin...od, .`these who sit on the opposite side of the flottee Mktet be as much surprised An myself— ( Hear, heat, Ilaent Lord Lynahurst)-selett for a different rea sonse-a( Laughter. ) I wished to have seen it in the Bill— had hoped to find It there ; because it was a prig ' ciple which it tesserted, and it was said to derive its whole valtko, because of the principle which it did assert. ' Those sOlo sit opposite dreaded to find it in the Bill—they toedd scarcely expect to b.:: raieved from it—they hardly dared to hope they would not find it. For why? They well recol lected how meth they, in other times, had suffered under that word and from that cause.—( Hear.) I might have forgotten the recent history of this Bill, for it has a tendency to pass from one's recollection—it has a tendency to obscure and ob fuscate cite', memory on the subject—(Laughter)—but if I have n°t very much f irgotten the state of parties in this country—l go no farther back than three years—there was a motion somewhere or other—( Laughter)—for the very express purpose of asserting this great principle, which no liberal man could possibly abandon—the principle of appropriation as to the Irish Church. As one of the great political parties felt it impossible, honestly, to abandon that principle, in which I partly join with them, so another of the great parties found it as impossible to accede to that doctrine of appro. ptiation—( Hear)—and in that other House of Parli anent (I may speak of it without great irregularity, because it was on the votes at the time, and as that House has since died a violent death, and is no longer in existence—( A laugh)—in that House, there was a vote passed, the result of which was, that one Government was broken up. And the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (Lyndhurst) whom I remember I saw on the very day of his going out—(Laughter)—will recollect, that I had the pleasure of some conversation with him on the sub ject, and we ventured to offer predictions as to the future, al most all of which have been by the event fulfilled.—(Hear, hear.) But amongst those-predictions in which our fancies that morning indulged, I will freely confess that I never did reckon on one, and I believe he was as guiltless of fancying as I was, that we should ever live to see the day when appro priation should be given to the winds as if the thing had never been talked of, as if it had never been the means of seating one Ministry and unseating another.—( Hear, hear, hear.) So much for appropriation—the chapter of appropriation, its origin, history, flourishing, decline, and fall—(Laughter)—its use, how it has been taken up, how used for the purpose of un settling one Government, and settling another, and how, in the fullness of time, having answered every good purpose, it has been gently laid aside, and .put to rest with asing.le requiem • sung over its grave, not even in one sentence of the Noble Vis count address, but in one or two words, namely—and this is what is meant as a tribute over the grave of the late appropria tion, that useful and excellent friend—that the present mea sure, excluding the late appropriation "is as good a measure as, everything being taken into account, we can now hope to pass."—(Laughter and cheers.) To have passed over so dear and valued a treasure—to have paid it less honour would have been the grossest ingratitude-4 A laugh)—ingratitude worse than the witchcraft, and that worst species of witchcraft, which gave rise to the transformation of the Bill we have now witnessed, but surely it was unnatural and unkind in the Nob Viscount to a deceased and valued friend to have dismissed it so unceremoniously.—( Renewed laughter.) - To have said less upon such a subject—to have paid a slighter tribute to the vast services of this extremely important and va lueble assistant, dum .fuit—( Hear, and a laugh)—to have said less in its praise was absolutely impossible, for even the most concise of all the orators who ever uttered a funeral oration in the city of Lacedemon.—(Great laughter and cheering.) Now, my Lords, it is on these two grounds of what is in the Bill for the first time, and what is now for the first time left out, that I take my stand, and give my serious and solemn protest against the course about to he pursued by her Ma jesty's Ministers.—( Hear, hear.) That it may be lawful— that it may be consistent with the most perfect and scrupulous regard to the rights of conscience and the great interests of religious liberty—and that it may be also consistent with the most perfectly sound administration of the principles of the Civil laws of the realm, as regards its duties and obligations to all parties, for the Government to interpose in difficult cir cumstances with a temporary loan and an advance of money to parties whom it is the policy of the State to protect, and who, from accidental circumstances, or under the pressure of im mediate ones, from the non-performance of the debts, the du ties, or the obligations of others, are compelled to resort to it, is a proposition which I am perfectly ready to admit as true ( Hear, hear.) It is one which all Governments have in difficult circumstances acted upon, whether it be the Clergy now, or the laity at a different time—whether it be mercantile men in one state of distress, or the agricultural interest at another period of public suffering, or the Colonial interests at a third period, in each and all of those cases temporary ad vances have been made by way of loan from the public funds, to relieve the necessities of private individuals—( Hear, hear)_ the Church in this case being in one sense a public body, but for the purposes of the present argument I view it in the ca pacity of a private individual—in that of tithe-owners, as contra-distinguished from tithe-payers—in that of creditors, as contra-distinguished from debtors. No principle of religious liberty or perfect toleration could ever be said from any act of temporary accommodation or mere succour to have been infringed. So long as the Church was to be protected at all—so long as the State took upon itself the task of providing a remedy for the violation of rights, no one could deny that this Act, which was indeed further recommended to all parties, and most of all to those parties whose consciences were most tender, by the amiable name and pleasing character of a charitable measure, was a measure not inconsistent with jus tice, and sanctioned by sound policy. Therefore I will say that I never met any persons, either those who were against all religious establishments, or those who, not being for the Voluntary principle, were still against any further endowment of the Church. other than that derived from tithes and Church lands which had been already given to the Church—l uevcr heard from any of these quarters objection taken to the principle of a temporary advance of money. --( Hear, hear.) But, my Lords, it is indeed otherwise with gifts out-and-out, and not to be repaid. These gifts 1 maintain are exception able on every ground. The Church is endowed with- lands and with tithes ; and no man, be his creed what it may, be his dissent as wide as you please front the Church in doctrine, and be his disapproval of the ordinances of the Church as wide and his practice as different as you please, earl have any right whatever to disapprove of a loan. But he has a right to dis approve—he has a duty to disapprove—not of the loan made in the first instance—not of tithes in their regular course—( Hear, hear)—not of Church lands in the ordinary case, and for why ? Because these prop•Tties never were in him—l-c never had more than nine-tenths of his free hold. the remaining tenth belonging to the Church ; and as for Church Inds they never were his at all ; but he has a right to disapprove of gifts, and therefore, although I am one of those who hold that all Church property—tithes in England, tiends in Scotland, and Church-lands in England and Ireland, are all properly speaking, public property—( Hear, hear)—and may be dealt with by the Country and the Legislature for na tional purposes, if the wisdom of Parliament so think fit --for purposes immediately connected with the Church, if the wisdom of Parliament so think fit ; or for pur poses tint immediately connected with the Church, be cause the State having its faith inseparab'y bound up and connected with the Church, nothing which the wisdom of Parliament can do for the appropriation of its property, either to temporal or secular purposes, can at all be said to he alien to the interests of that Church ; yet I have no hesitation in ac knowledging the right of the Church to receive such tempo rary advances as it may require upon its own property. If a national Establishment be held in the opinion of the country to he fit for the people, and beneficial to them, the support of that Establishment mar be said to be immediately and di rectly the interest of the. State itself ; but I take it, nevertheless, that there is a broad and deep line to be drawn tetvveen that Church property, the tithes. and the Church lands hitherto wholly enjoyed by the Church in severalty, And never enjoyed by any other party, and money raised by taxes off the people of this country, raised by way of lean, the in terest upon which loan the people in the shape of taxes most pay—and this difference is all and everything. You will ob serve that no Dissenter, be lie Quaker or Presh)teriati, Bap tist. or Unitarian, ever makes the slightest objection (except the Quaker) to the payment of tither ; but none of them ever make the slightest objection to the Chits -h retaining for the present and until the wisdom of Parliament shall otherwise decide , er tirely and exclusively its property in the Church lands. I. it the same with rates? Name but the subject of chill-ell-rates, and every Dissenter, of every shade of religious •.opinion throughout the island, from one end to the other, was up in arms. The strongest Government that ever existed in this country, even in the most flourishing period of its power, when public affairs prospered most, and when private influence at • home was most -extensive, and kept pace with the prosperity abroad—the strongest Government has not die power in the I titres in which - we live to levy off' the people of t)lis 'country the fraction of a fartking for the fabric of the Church by the ic.- crease of Church-ratge, Thelqueltion nap ken with all f the mecteanieVi of die State, with al! the I.nnerit.:e of the 0.C.. vs6rinSient, and With all the shpreMe power Of Parliament, can you maintain Church-rates on the footing on which they now rest ? N? man; be he thp greatest 'Zeal t dt in ,politiq pr religion, or; WbO no 1:, ire with that, unoatural Alliance between Church and State, which must be stigma tised as having been productive of nothing but clerical corrup tio.r—no one of these zealots could maintain the physical possibility of raising one penny additional for the rated of the Church by force of any nese law. ?To /to of Parliament sanctioning such gross oppression, cruelty, and injustice, an or will pass in the present day. Why is it CH:SO atid unjust? Reeause those melt ate taked oil account d' their religious scruple s, their honest conscientious dissent, and they are com pelled to pay twice when they should only pay once. They arc compelled to pay to the support df yotir Church ; and th ey choose to pity, under the letitterlde tff their bonSt . .iltititts opi nions, for the support of their own, and they tliereroid Tiny double tax, as a tax upon wor,hippin g God according t o th e i r own cot:sei snces. Why, then, my Lords, what is this measure? \Vhat is the object of this Bill ? It is by a tam to take 900,0001. from the people of Englend to stay the Irish . (-40,0-0, 14 plain it. 1401 Y, my Lords,have presented hundreds hundreds of petitions from Scotland,in which may parts of Eng land synapathiied, againet ,one farthing Additiqnal endowment lb the ScotEh Clittreiti " NoVernment, Who Were the authors of the appropriation clause; yoti—cellt all )our professions of liberality and sound principle ; you.— who brought forward a plan for relieving Dissenters—can you think. of giving- additional etiddartttent iii the Church of Scotland, which mutt be paid by tales to be levied oil its renters from the Church ?" Your answer to that—how will it be receiYed " Oh, no, we mean to do no such thing There is a difference between the seceder and the member o f the Church—not in doctrine, but he diiciplineedd A question of Church patronage alone—not upon coniCientious gatipleg, or religious prineiple at all. The seceder differs from the Church, therefore God forbid that we e the patrons of Reli gious Liberty, that we, the authors of` Vie appropriation clause —we, the proposers of the abolition of Chtne3h-rates, on the greundt Of Religious Liberty ! God forbid that we should use any such violence to your conscientious scruples, as to make you pay one farthing for a Church, in every one article of whose profession of faith you textually and entirely agree, and from which you are only separated by some slender, evanescent, and hardly tangible dif ference on political grounds." " But, do you mean to give any money to any other Church?" "Oh 1 to be sure," is the reply. " we mean to givenot 20,0001., or 50,0001., as was asked and refused, for the Church of Scotland —no, but we, the advocates of civil and religious liberty —we, the great patrons of the Dissenters —we, who without the Dissenters could not exist as a Government for half an hour—( Hear, hear, hear)—we, who to repay them, brought in a measure so ill framed, that it could not pass either House—but which was founded on the principles of civil and religious liberty —we, to manifest the consistency between our professions and our conduct, we mean to give not 20,0001., but 900 ; 0001.—not to a Church from which the Scotch Dissenters differ only on points of discipline, but to a Church of bishops, priests, and deacons, which all good Presbyterians, and all Dissenters, regard as an utter abomination !"--( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Well—well, my Lords, may this be looked upon as a viola. tion of all principle—as a " heavy blow, and great discourage. men s"_( A laugh)—to the hopes of the Dissenters.—( Hear, hear.) But, my Lords, is there nothing in the peculiarities of this case, which make it worse? Ever) thing. I will not enter, my Lords, into the great question of religi ous establishments. Ido not stand here upon the ground of what is called " tha voluntary principle." My opinions arc strongly in favour of a religious establishment. I think it is better for the teaching of religion—l think it stands upon safer grounds than the American experiment—for I can hardly call it a doctrine, it has not lasted long enough to have stood the test of experience—the plan, letting every man choose his own religion, and having none to whom the Government lends its support. It is quite unimportant to me which way this argument is determined. My present pro position stands entirely apart from it. If I were the enemy of religious establishments—or if I carried my regard for religi ous establishments to the utmost extent—l should still hold precisely the same opinion on the present measure. Dr. Paley, and all those who have ever argued this question in favour of Church establishments, hold that such institutions ought to be in accordance with the opinions of the great majority of the people. Ido not remember one argument in support of these establishments which would sanction anything so mon strous as a Church amply endowed, richly provided for at the ex pense of the whole community, which only ministers to the spiri tual wants of a very small fraction of the people. I well remember a phrase used by one, not a foe to Church Establishments—l mean Mr. Burke—" Don't talk of its being a Church !—it is a wholesale rubbery 1" My Lords, I should hesitate to use such language—it would be called everything noxious, and grating to your Lordships' cars, attuned as they are to more silvery tones on questions relating to Establishments.-4 A laugh.) Yet this is the language of Mr. Burke, who some times carried his advocacy of Church Establishments into the bounds of enthusiasm. My Lords, here is a Church supported by a people, in number 8,000,000, of whom 6 000,000 are Catho lics and 1,000,000 Protestant s. I say nothing of the endowment of the Church by tithes, wit ch is—most wieey, I think—by this Bill to be converted into a rent-charge. But I say that the principles of religious liberty are outraged by a Government who, while they will not allow it to be said that Is. is to be paid by the Seceder to the Scotch Church, bring forward a measure by which the Seceder, and all Dissenters, will be compelled to pay 900,000/. to the Irish Church. My Lords, I object to the measure therefore as being at variance with all the principles of religious liberty. But I object to it upon another, and, though perhaps a lower, not an unimpor tant ground. I object to the Bill upon this principle, that it allows persons to escape the payment of tithes, which is a debt due from them, and because they will not pay it, the State is to step in and pay it for them.--( Hear.) That is, persons refuse to obey the law, for the payment of tithe ; and you, the Government, instead of lending, which would be the natural co rot—all facilities to the Church to obtain payment of its lawful dues, you interpose and tax those woo have already paid their dues, to relieve those who have refused to pay. That is the character of this Bill ; is it, my Lords, according to the principles of justice, or is it consistent with common sense ?—( Hear.) Certainly not; it is contrary to every principle of justice and a gross violation of common sense. Far different is it to the old doctrine of the Eivelish Common Law; far otherwise were the old institutions of the country with which I have been acquainted from a child. According to those institutions, every man was made answerable for his o wn acts, and the defeulter was not allowed to go free; ti were made to keep watch and ward over their neighbour, and in case he should escape them the, law brought him to justice ; but here the case is different; by the present Bill it is said You have committed yourself ; you have been contumaciou s you have refused to pay the dues of the Church ; the Church was a creditor of yours; you have riot paid your debt, a n d therefore we will make others who have discharged their lawful obligations, not those who have shown a refractory spirit, we will make thorn pay f r you. Instead o f your paying twenty shillings in the pound, you shall not pay one farthing, but we will make those pay s who have not broken the law. Upon what principle of justice, or upon what principle of common sense, can such a measure, m y Lords, be framed.—( Hear.) My Lords, I look upon the gift of 900,000/. which is to be paid by the Dissenters to the Irish Church, as one which is mule in violation of all the great rights of which men in the ordinary transactions of life arc so justly jealous and tenacious. Is there anything, my Lords, in the situation of the Irish Church that makes it ad visable title such a state of things should exist. I should think that every reasoneWe and sensible man would say n o ; and how those who wish to perpetuate such a state can brine their feelings to justify themselves upon it, Ido not know. It is no argument with them that the apsropri itioa clause might be dispensed with, bccaus if there should be a surplus, it might be but small, and might belong ere it arrived, come it soon or late,be it great or small, at all events it is a beginning ; it is a principle asserted, it is a mater of principle, and we are here upon principle.—( Hesr. ) We are, say the propounders of this measure, men of principle, and we would sooner die than give up our opinions up m Civil and Religious Liberty, and our opinions, above all, upon the question of the Church. We would sooner die than give up this dear, cherished, and sacred principle—we would sooner ruttier any thing, except indeed to be shut out of official existence.—(Great laughter. ) Any thing ..,hort of that species of suicide they ;acre prepared to encounter and defy s loner than give op that principle. How, then, is this luster of pr'n2iple to be given up. In this HooFe and the House of Commons there nuiy be a difference of principles. A few nights ago, on a question of great im portance, one of the highest importance as it affecte d the relation of this county with neutral Powers, two Noble Lords in the same Ministry, had differed most ma terially with each other, set strange to say they ,kept their opinions, and what was infinitely better thee 'plaecs l . ; be the same adhesion to principles, though differing tot 9 (Great laughter.) So it may be here, my Lords;. there mayln rdo, and here may be also the same adhesion to offic e.--- creased laughter.) NOw, how has the principle been have pref. rrecl anything rather than have given up the ap propriation .cii,use— ( Hear , hear)—l should have infinitely preferrs. d the Bill with the principle being rei eet ,i rather than have the Bill carried without the appropr iation clause. The only thing said by the Noble Viscount, in the few words he utt ere d up o n th e s u bject, was, that " in pre sent circumstances, and situated as they were, it was all th at they could . do." It was carried in the House of Commons b y abandoned? I declare to you, my Lords , that I should some small majority—eight or fifteen.—(Oreat laughter-) Noble Lords on the other side of the House may laugh, but I firmly believe, if they had been - in the - Ministry. they would not have had a larger majority.—( Cheers.) The days ere gone by, svlien you will see great majorities in the House of Commons ; they hav e be en p ut an end to—whether that he good or bad. I will not say —but great majorities have been put an end to by the Reform Bill. The Ministry have been oblieed, in order to lighten their sinking bark—( Cheers trom the Opposition) —to throw the most valuable part of their cargo overboard—the appropriation clause. The present state of the measure is, in my opinion, very much like a certain animal which when hunted emasculated itself in order to escape itc . nursuers. —( Cheers.) The pursuers who were in chase of t sis Bill, sour Lordships, would not be satisfied with anything short of cutting out and emaseulating this appropriation clause. —k Cheers.) The Ministry cut it nut, and arc now flinging it in the face of its pursuers.—( Cheers.) The ob ject of the Noble Lord in resorting to this operation—l mean so this measure—(Great laughter) —is to reduce it to such a woeful plight and such a pitiful condition, as to render it un worthy of being caught, and thereby enable it to escape, and prevent your Lord Ships from reeking your vengeance upon it. Is not this most unnatural conduct on the part of the parents of this measure ?—( Cheers.) I confess,• my Lords, that it seems to me it would have been far more feeling that the rne2Ell7 o should have suffered from the hands of your : Lurdslqi SUN, LONDON, SATVRDAV, AUGU - ST 4, Ist", than froM those g ot;its ; unnatural,,and wretched parents.— ? Ku l a:a: s a e s 11,;1 id,onsfstelicy of th i n4e, viii.'e itti'oduced this measure, and then deprived ;t Of Ita iitali4, / never before saw exceeded or equalled.—( Cheers. ) Now, illy Issai,lai bafore I close the remarks I have to make, I must say that I see „ ~,,,t a ai n ,thy peaspects of the Irish Church which ‘ .. s pip c i ., p,.3a;s . so 'sleets ,iippn it the enormous sum of 900 0001. 'There is ugly,:''" se. !bat , Civil-eh that reconeilea na_ to pin with the money or the serintiasie, I hay, upon former occasions stated my conviction, my paneled conviction.-1 did so on the last stage of the Irish Poor Lay Illfl e see a a t b (Merril of Ireland was so unnaturally circum sianeeeit a, siiv iA;med,E7 : :. r,,, , ,,trefrom without, that all the luipreen`ieiitS' YOU giro beatear 14(V? ,it e0:1 lee fr aoile in comps. rledn yFitb thatire.S'si!Ye. Stich being tlio etitca rats ;aards, it appear s to me fr'r l .t ties t.lturCh 6r. f t‘el add . is iv eap able of fast leig much longer without change, t.ir ) ei. clian'ge Which the friends and advocates of the Church would say ittessisi toad to its de 'ts presed `,.-...1.t. nasal t Years longer. Does any body. or can Jrdctio». ( hear.) It cannot be expected that it wil l ' m ot in any body, raally s 'el - liar: l -N that this alf,r9tra Ecclesin, I Will not eiee it a harsher terni, Ciiii '.:!_. reepeturiteti ;roach o. esatateics, and oie.a? asehliet z s ot i i n , gari Tliat SIX-assillions e r. 1 iseaedkra. a4S:ra edttsoni. an Establishment while the whole CP the wealth of the t'searif:? 'vats given to an Establishment of some 800,000 inlividuals. Tilers? i's. enerseth•ng, my Lards, in such a vase of things that is shocking to diii';',S of, and incon soaft 5 o o on 6, th l i ?ige4it asith eommon sense.—( Cheers from one or iiia!".eaate, Lord s 6,i fig rt s ipiaterial benches.) If the Noble Lunn wlio 4 -11 , 55 ”ddse were on the other, in stead I have h ea rd it called by various natanSo-e-adtle Elf them y our should lki have liad i. ) li air t:' Ceiteera —( Laught er . ) . LortigiiiPs Yaae heard me use, onla in a more decent diegreiee, , I have, my Lora, liitlf4 is "willed an anomaly, and I say that it is an anomaly of so groS . ; i It.?ttlt that it ou;asaaaos every principle of common sense ; and every f.'t.V 4 endowed with cortimen reason, must feel that it is the most gross Gtetarase to that comma, ...tnlt Ai it is also of justice. Such an Establisii talent, kept up for such a Ptirrasta . kept up b , such means, and upheld by such a system, is a IWO who} y peculiar to Ire -1 land # and could be tolerated nowhere else. iis! 4 rf""th a a system should go Oat hi the 19th century—that such a thing fnrea2.l no on while all the aria's& n seforward and onward course —while all the sciences are progressitig- 7 Thiss all morals and religion too—for, my Lords, there never was thOrii tiff religion and mora lity then is now presented in all parts of the edtleitleaeselliat this gross'abuse—llle most outrageous of all—should be iikilitrti to continue, is really aston:gtiftsea. It cannot be upheld, unless ' the tide of knowledge should turn tiele-satsnless we return to the state in which things were a couple of n'rleries ago. *There Is a aOphistry which was used by Mr. Burke—tall, it is impossible that ally peraen possessed of reason or common sense but must see througd It ea once, nor do I think that that eloquent man believed in it Ithweelf--it is im possible that a man with his powers could do Sea • At the time o f t he Union the proportion of Catholics . ft) Churchmen vette as fire to cne ; but Mr. Burke said , It is not the Ch urc h o f I re l a nd, Ind the United Churches of Eng land and I re l an d , ari d b y that meant i 1 lefotta ht of .Chur c h men to assume t he relative prdilortifile proportion oti df flees , . to i one Catholic. Any one who could put faith in stitch an argu ment must have lost all sense of right and wrong. Vs ht, Mr. Billie in using it must have forgot the positim of the Bristol Channel ; he must have forgot that they here a different p eo p l e , of a different country, of a different lineage, with different h a bi ts and prejudices—(Loud cheers and laughter) —I will not call them " aliens," &c.—( Loud Cheers)—l knew th a t my bne a e l x s ep v n a la y. si s toie e d on b s y id m er y ed N t 9 h b a l t e i a t nd wa L s e m ar e n r e e d l Y his lips--( Noble and Learned Friend had that ward on Cheers and laughter)—but I. my Lords, never us o i t ng us i F t d in w with 0 u a was one of those - who cried out against my Noble and l a u s p g e a a rg gee g r e a n p t Y Learned Friend for the use of the words, for I u a n n fo d rt i u t ne i . i t a c v e in x g . pression.—( Cheers.) I understood it as it was aftefWatatie explained away, we are bound to believe that it was F a rie v n er d y ; r ny of in th te e nt l i r o i n sh of eo ins l u e lt. and l, n h o o lt w a e g v a e i r n , s a t m on.. n .m ow ; Lords, what a monstrous p knowledge therefore I will go back to my p p osiiio Why, mymay so use b it. those mutt possess who use such a monstrous they must forget that the sea cut and divide d gm th e two countries—they must 'forget that the I • rish people have old feelings and associations different to the English people—they must n o t on l y f orget that their very blood and language were different, but they must also the habits of th e I r i s h p eop l e wh i ch are broadly m arked by forget the hand of natur e , an d m ore strong l y st il t, b y the monstrous na of the civil p o lity un d er w hi c h t h ey h ave been ruled for ce nturies. —( Haar, hear, from the Marquis of Clanricarde.) It is easy then, but is idle, for the people to talk of nankin , ' one kingdom of the two countries so far as the Church is concerned, it is easy so to join them for the purpose of making the Catholics appear in -a minority.--( Hear, hear, hear.) The question is, what is the relative proportion f Catho licism and Frotestakism in Ireland now. My Lords, it is as ten to one—there are now in Ireland ten Dissenters to one Churchman. The answer, as regards the Church, is decisive and triumphant. As regards the Church, the answer, then, is decisive, If you assume the proposition of Mr. Burke, then you must assume that tine Church of Ireland and the Church of England being the Establishment, is so for the whole of the people of England and Scotland, as well as the people of Ireland. What, my Lords, is the fact? "Why, that in Ire land the Churchmen amounted to 800,000 out of a popu lation of 8,000,000, and that is the fact, my Lords, which makes it the monstrous abuse which it is felt and declared to be. - Therefore it is, my Lords, that I bumbly stated my opinion a few days ago to be, that even the oldest member of your Lordships' House may live to see a very great change in the endowment of the Irish Church Esta blishment, even if he might not live to see the end to its very existence.—(Hear, hear.) I have not a word to say respecting' the endowment of a Catholic Church. No Catholic Church will. be borne by the people of England or of Scotland, or even 'of Ireland. Make a stated stipendary provision for the Catholic clergy, which would not only be borne but would be hailed aathe one real mode of solving the diffieulties in which ,we arc placed, as.the only mode of restor ing peace to that aliatracted country, and it would be at once easy and safe. I - e i ne * last man in the world to desire the establishment of the Catholic religion ; I verily believe that the Catholics theniselves would spurn at it e -they disavow such a wish, and Lbelievethem to be sincere. Can that, how ever, be any additional reason -for me to embark the million as well as.. my principles in so frail a bark, go .down by lading it a li tt l e more to help it, to without the chance of saving it. and so perish in what I fully believe to be a political wreck ? Surely no. Yet, my Lords, strange , most strange t o tell—at least , I have been informed, and 1 belie a, m y information to be correct—strange, I say, to tell, that a ss been given as a reason for inducing us, the country, contrary to all economy, contrary to all principle, eonttary to all tne great principles of toleration and religious liberty, that has been given as a reason why we should em bark the 900,0001. in a frail bark that is going down.--( Hear, hear.) That reason was given by a N o bl e L or d out of whose ' book I should be happy to take a leaf, but I stand liable to the same curse as the German , who complained that some other persona had said all the good things he intended to have said.—( L...ughter. ) In my place in Parliament, here, w h ere I now stand, some fortnight or three weeks ago, I said as regarded the Church of Ireland, but the same thi n g s cer tainly, my bards, I did not expect that I s h ou ld so soon he • a uonfia by ne a, and that Noble Lord who formed one of the Cabinet of her Majesty's Ministers. I did not expect that I would so so on hear from one of the Government that the Church of Ireland is doomed. I confess that I was not sanguine enoug h to expect to hear such language deliberately , fo r I have been informed that the N 'obleLord repeated the expression after his attention had been strongly called to it by an at t a ck made upon him an d t h e , a • • Government. to which he belonged, for that expresnon_l say my Lords, I was not san guine enough to expect to hear from such autho rity, and so soon, that it days are. numbered—that. the bark is ' it is imnossible that it can last any longer, or keep frail —that 'i • .f . r • mark a nd th..t, t rare o (.-- 1 , tsar, my Lords, I could not ' the sea, myself so soon a rrive at sack a conclusion from the same pre mises—t , , hat therefore, it is worth our while t o em b ark a money in it. This, million of sterling s . my Lords, is not acting ld adage of" throwing good money after h 1 " ' up ta the 0.. _ . isO a a ' • —(it howl ,. ) N.., it is throwing a o money away—throw it.- sinkina - vessel, without it into a fral al _ , the hope of the ' slightest berwtit ; and in addition to the million, not content with that which might have been considered enough —not con eta that—theyare preparing also to throw in their prin • 1 tentwi 1 cip ca, as Well as to saer.fice in the same frail bark the whole princi ples of toleration. My Lords, by this step you disappoint the fervent liepcs of seven millions in Ireland—you di=sappoint the exi eetations of tour millons of Dissenters in this countr y ; they have been fervent in their prayers for perfect equal liberty and exception from all taxes, which they cannot pay. conscientiously pay—You will deeply disappoint the imps of th ose m illi on their s who regard principles more than the p ressure o f t h e amount, and who woutilob'iet.; on principle to th e t x : were i t on l y a farthing, because they feel that the principle is a violation of their consciences. Yet, Inv Lards, you are about to pas; a Bill, to close a Session in which 3ou have done little or nothing- else, which will damp their hopes, and they will, having lost all confidence in Parlias 1 ineyt, look in vain for relief, and the Irish portion or them will no longer know where to turn. Do the Government hope that they are recommending, themselves to the country. or do they hope thet by this. abandonment of their principles they can solve the pest ion whi c h presses upon t h em, or eau pac ify Ire land . I recollect meeting in my reading a phrase which was used by Ch a d as the First, which is most applicable to the pre sent case. That Monarch in writing by his favourite the Duke of Buckingham, said, " Ireland is the only egg we have been sitting on for some years, but the shell of it is so hard that we have not hatched anything yet."—( Loud laughter.) These are my sentimenta, and they have alwaz s been the guide of my conduct. The affections of the people I will never cou rt at the expense of their interests,- their delusion:, their passing delusions; I is ill never share, though by thwarting weir wishes I may incur their displeasure. But their delibe rate opinions, their well considered principles. those judg ments Which they form after long observation and much expe rience, we are bound to regard with profound respect; and I [sever will be deterred from. supporting their sober and reasonable prayers, by any senseless apprehensien of wild and urgent de mands . . succeeding. Never fear the people. Believe ow, the aafest Nile is —treat that on May be trusted. The more you confide in them the more they will have confidence in you—the more you listen to their prayers, the less they will vex you with greedy encroachments - and unreasonable demands. I now give you the result of all my observations —all my experience --' , dl niy intercourse with them—l have never feared them-a citizen, senator, stetestnan minister, I never for an instant • "'l' d the people. Why should I now ? Liberty anti popular rights are mixed up with our whole Con- I stitution. Oppression, exclusive monopoly, oligarchy_ any sacrifice ofthe few, whether in State • e ilia, many to or . in unto-eh—is -utterly alien to its whole nature. How I often have we seen popular rights and liberal principles or ex:are:nee: almort preetrated, an..l oppessbn cud iutc, lerartee beating an unnatural .sway ! Even then I never despaired of the good old cause—l never turned away iron the cap' of liberty ; evert when it hung upon a bush , or was iftritedl to the scaffold. Surely I will not now, when it should eurreintinf the Orowes—the Crown that was fabeieated for its support and maintenance. I [rev stettd alone. but I stand undismayed; Ihavehonestlyandfearless.ydeliseretltnr opinions, the opinions of my whole life. and upon which the public eon dest of thirty years has been invariably frerned. I stand erilt9teg the epthemoral supporters of an ephemeral, though an eriorttieW alAtisN: Hit- we day is fast ap a roaehing, when their eyes will be uucelfe'l f en 4 my principles bear sway—whet truth, because it is truth, will preetail-nsend right, because it f right, triumph ; for the prineiplee *lie ? have declared ar. founded in eternal justice, and' adopted by- the under . standings, and engraved upon the hearts, of melee o' the people. Lord FITZGERALD said there were psrts of the No ble and Learned Lord's speech calculated to be so alarming to the House and to the country that before he spoke on the subject immediately under consideration he begged to make one or two citurrvations on them. The Noble and Learned Lord had ridiculed Mr. Pitt',; argument, and having done so 451 as eel that in his opinion there ought to he ne Eetahlished (Ja+ 44 ,Ireland. If he thought so, why in 1829 did he re main silent when the Roman Catholic Relief Bill was re commended as a Memo calculated to give security to the es tablishment—to afford prZ`tection to the Protestant establish. reeet in Ireland?—(Cries Hear.") When they were dispad to give their most careful ennsideration to the pre sent measure s doubting whether their Lepc that it would tend to the restoratioP of tranquillity were not more than counterbalanced by their feeee of the evil consequehees that reAtirt result, it might have been surely more becoming in the " eitiessn, the senator, the statesman, god one who had been MinisierseeiCheers)—if he bad treaeed this question in another temper, with greater fairness, and not with an appa rent disposition to excite against the Bill, not this House. beaten" the Noble and Learned Lord had confessed he stood alone here, hot the people out of doors. He would not raise a question to the proposed remission ; but when the Noble and Learned Lord :said that that was a sufficient argu ' regent with him not to proceed further, he must remind him that free Bills which received the assent of this House, and which receiml the support of the Noble end Learned Lord contained a similar preposition. In 1835 a Bill teas , sent up from the House of ComniOna, which remitted the whole sum 046, up to that time, had been paid to the titheownere in Leieflti, end applied the whole that remained of the million' to remit 074 Arrears of 1834. In a subsequent Bill 600,0004 was remitted. .k-ord BRO UG H A M-1 ?;ran not in office at the tiate, and had nar.s'nß. to do with that Lord Fl'! ZOgRALD—The Noble Lewdest:is not in Office, but he was exercising she duties of senator, of statesmen, tt!t4 citizen ; he was not itnr,ster, but he was taking part in tfre d ; ..extssion ; and when this House inserted an amend ment vrhietideereseted the Ministers in another place, the Noble and Learned lAA hue one who predicted that the pro gress of the Bill weak, tem in consequence impeded else eletee. and he warned them of the situation of the Irish Church, et•%tieh he said would be liable fur the repayment of the money adviillejt4e and he also observed that they would have hone but Ode Ottt friends and patrotre to thank for the embarrassment into ed7feb thel would be plunged. The Noble and Learned Lord said alio that, he would not consent to any Bill that did not contain the principle aof appropriation, but he fomented to the Bill introduced by Earl Grey's Govern nista; SYbielt did not contain that principle. He would surely feel that Mote just and eternal principles of which he had spoken were nd lest valid and, ;n his mind, not less predomi nant then than they Inefe zit present—( Cheers)—yet he ( Lord Vesey Fitzgerald) must itgellt remark that in the Bill to which fig wee adverting no such provisidn was to be found. It was not his illteetion to raise that question on the present occasion ; he should have Ile ttn content to follow the example of the Noble Viscount, who did not: etelserress the present question by the test allusion to the principle of appropriation ; but, as it had heen refefeed to by the Noble and Learned Lord, he thought it would not tie' IPSeeming in those who had successfully resisted the insertion of the Cidt.4.se i to allow the matter to pass with eot a single remark. list ifat. not one who thought that the sliglitest reproach attached td tiie Nothe Lords opposite for their abandointent of a principle which would bane stood in the way of their inifiehipte adoption of any measure of which it formed a part ; he trusted that the present measure would ensure peace, and he congratulated the Noble Lords eppaeite on the course they had adopted. The Noble Viscount had adverted to the principal points of the Bill; the first of which was the relinquishment of the claim on the part of the country to 900,0001. With respect to the million, he confessed that so far was he from desiring that the Church of Ireland should be benefited by that sum being exacted from the large body of contributors to the public taxes, that there was no part of' the Bill to which he felt greater repugnance, and to which he bad • given his consent more reluctantly than that which, in the pur chase of the remission, interfered with the rightful and just claims to property. It would have been much more accepta ble to him, and he believed to ether of their Lordships, if the Bill had left to those who had fights of property the option of accepting this rateable payment rtthith was to be assigned to them, or that of endeavouring to reCOYur what they wei e entitled to by the law of the land. It Went against his feelings to compel parties to relinquish their just rights. With a desire to give the measure dos, introduced the best chance of success, it had been felt that to continue proc'ted ings for the recovery of tithes after tithes and tithe compo sition should be changed into a rent- charge would he ex tremely objectionable.—( Heer, hear.) He trusted that the Clsrgy of Ireland would feel that it was not from indifference to their interests that that House acquiesced in the propo sitions contained in the 13i11 sent up from the other Houtc of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) He had reason to believe that the course now taken bad the sanction of those heads of the Irish Church who were near enough to be consulted on the subject.—( Hear, hear.) lie now came to the next point ad verted to by the Noble Viscount, when he stated the grounds on which had been introduced the clauses for re-opening and revising the compositions for tithes made under former Acts of Parliament, and he ( Lord Fitzgerald) would here at once state that when the House went into Committee on the Bill he should move the rejection of these clauses, which had been so vaguely, as he might say—( Ilear)—sepported by the Noble Viscount, and propose the insertion, in their stead, of e!auees introduced by their Lordships when in Committee on forrnee Tithe Bills. To proceed. The Noble Viscount had, in very general terms, recommended that power should be given un der the Bill to open and revise the compositions: made under Mr. Goulburn's Act and under Lord Stanley's Act. Thoie who heel not read the Bill or examined the clauses which it contained, and which were t > effect this object of the Noble Viscount, would hardly believe the nature, and extent, and oppression of the clauses, defended in such very vague and general terms by the Noble Viscount.—( Hear, hear.) Noble Lords wore aware that the compositions under the Act of 1822 were voluntary, were compositions to which the tithe owner and the tithepayer were necessarily contracting parties, were made by the common agreement of the parties as to the amount of composition rent. In very few • instances. when compared with the number of compositions made under this Act, had it been found necessary to call in any arbitrator, or to have recourse to any Commissioners to settle the amount. That Act gave the power of appeal against the amount of composition, and when he stated !het the timber of composi tions effected under this Act was 1,505, and that in only thirty-nine instances had there been appeals lodged from titheowners and from tithepayers, the Howse would feel that' there must have been a very general acquiescence in Ireland in the compositions made under this Act. —( He ir. ) Further, it was to be stated that of 39 appeals, IS were with drawn as irregular and informal, leaving 24 to lie tried. Of these 24,.18 were beard in the Privy Council, and six were referred to the Judges of Assize ; and in three only of the whole number was the amount appealed against reduced. To admit in the present Bill any clause which should give the power of opening these compositions would be against every dictate of justice and sound reason.--( Hear, hear.) Before lie sat down he wished to advert to another todie. On all oc casions for some time back the wealth and resources of the Irish Church had been grossly exa g gerated. Since h e had been a Me nbcr of theLegislaturehe had heard statements made on this subject so extravagant and outrageous that even their authors would be ashamed to repeat them, now that the public had arrived at a better :ot juster view of the revenues of that much-maligned Church.-_( Hear, hear.) A Bill in trodue 'd in the other House provided for the suppression of no fewer than 800 benefices in Ireland, on theground that they were not called for by the state of Protestantism in that country. lie ( Lord Fitzgerald) wag of opinion that the present Bill was calculated to he of much service. As to the Irish Church establishment, he did not feel it necessary for him to enter into any defence of it.—( Hear, hear. ) The Church had been derisively entitled the United Church of Great Britain and Ireland, but let it be remembered that this was a title which it received in virtue of that comp ,et under which Parliament now l e gislated for Ireland—(Hca... bear)—of that compact which legislatively united two countries bound to each other be mutual ties of the highest interests. Lord BItOUtWIIAM explained at some length. The Earl of \VICK I.° '‘V said that it was ' really a master of surprise to him that the Noble Viscount did not think it necessary to explain why this Bill was only now before'the House, when it was notorious that it might have been passed any one year since 1835, if the Gevernmem had thou g ht fit (Hear.) If this was the case, w hy h a d t h e N o bl e Viscount aid his colleagues permitted the unhappy state of things to con tinue so long ? Why had he sufferedsthe evils to g'o on in. creasing ? Why had so much blood been shed during this pe riod? Why lead-so many outraees been permitted to be com mitted ? Why had tranquillity been so constantly disturbed, and the Church of Ireland, as well as that of this country, placed in jeopardy—all of which could have been prevented, if the Government had thought proper to introduce a measure like this for the settlement of the question ? The main prin ciple of thi s Bill was i ntro d uced i n the ineaiure of Si; Robert Peel in 1835, and in that brought furward by Lord Stanley in 1836, and it was then violently opposed, as being unsatis factory. • An awful responsibility rested on her Majesty's Government for the course they had - pursued, and it was the duty of the Noble Viscount to reconcile his conduct, if he could do so, with any sense of justice and consistency.— ( Ilear, hear.) Ile had expected that the Noble Viscount would have said something to Ilse effect that it was true that in former Sessions he had advocated the prineiVe of appropriation, and that a certain part of the revenues of the Church in Ireland should be devoted to secular pur poses ; that he still continued to maintain that principle ; but that as he saw that even at his council board and in his Cabinet revolution prhiciples had been avowed, and that mem bers of that body had even openly declared that they wonlc. riot be satisfied with the adoption of that principle, but that one member of it in particular openly advocated the subversion of the Established Church and an establishment of Popery in its place; that .this person, not satiL±icd with giving this opinion in the Cabinet, 12,1 openly avowed it its his place iu Parliament; and that the Noble Viscount, not - wishing for the overthrow of the Established Church, although .he was willing to do that which h e kne w wou ld b e a In'avY blcn v and a great . discouragement to it, was, th e r e fore, wiiii;sg t eme for ward with a measure like the present, which wou Lava the effect, to a considerable extent, to pot don these spi.vits ar,mnd ttirn. The Noble Viscount should have boldly come fora a•d :out avowed this, with the view of saving the Chum. `l,fr , tilt ti e dangers which surrounded it. The Noble Viacou.lt, how ever, lai given no such opinion ; h • had said nothing in Vin dication of the extraordinary conduct which he had pt. rst. "d. in justification of the most discreditable violas o of prh. ^ipto that had ever characterized any Government. This, 11 vs.. ever, was not a proof cf inconsistency on the part of teu Noble Viscount and his colleagues ; he gave her 1 lajes:y'.l Ministers the fullest credit for perfect consistency, for their only object appeared to be—tLc Polar star which they had ever is view was—how they could coofenee to maireatin themselves in their offices.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He recollected that a Noble Lee] in the other House wie4 lately reported to haves Lid that if the pesple were true te thsmsslves tl.ey ultimately must prevail, and the House .of Lords must su c amb and must yield to the voice of the neol,les sooner or late.. That Noble Lord now, however, said tt at it: was true that he maintained the same opinion as he did before, but the most prudent course now to pursue was to adopt this measure, as there was no chance of getting the Hous • of Lords to agree to 1.:.; views. On this ground he would .-e -commend that they should take what they could get ; that although they must abandon their own principles, contained tie the resolutions which they had induced the House of Commons , to adopt, they must now pursue that course which was recom mended formerly by those opposed to them. He (the Earl of Wicklow) had no hesitation ie saying that their proceedings carried their own disgrace with them, and that there was not sa black a page in the history of party in this country as the trans:ctions he had alluded to, and w hich would go down to po stts't• ,r with this character. He spoke warmly on t h i s su b- jest, although it was a matter of not six slightest consequence to him who w.-s in place—it could not possibly make the slightest differ:nce to him who ssas the Ainister of the Crown, and it never could be otherwise ; but' v,-hen he saw such conduct as that which he had described pursued by Ministers of the Crown, he could not help wish;s4; to see the destinies of the country placed in more creditab:e ) I :lnds. With respect to the measure itself, he was prepared to state that he was willing to adopt the general pin ciple of the Bill, but some of its clauses were founded in the rankest injustice. If this Bill had passed, as it might hare dote, in 1835. they ,vould not have been called upon tor pay - any arrears of tithes ; therefore he contended that the Mini /eft; of the Crown were responsible for letting this weight fall on 'lnt country. This part of the Bill involved the great est ijust;':e to all chsses directly interested in its operation — namely, the la: downers, tithepayers, the occupiers of the soil, and the clergy themselves. Again, in this Bill it was stated that one million was to be devo'ed to the clergy, where as upwards of 100,0001. had been taken away for public works. If, therefore, the sum of one million was voted by a former Parlinment to the clergy of Ireland, it ought to be given in its integrity. When the Bill giving this million was before Par liament. l;e distinctly stated that if it was intended to Cell upon the clergy to repay a shilling of this million, he would' never consent to sanction if, Ho denied that that measure was brought forward with the view of benefitting the Protestant clergy, ;0.- though it wai! pretended that this was the case: but it was in tended to mil sv e Lord Althorp from the difficulty in which hehad placed himself, stating in the House of Commons that the pay ment of tithes should be at an end in Ireland within a certain day. Before tie siit down he felt called upon to allude to the lan guage used by Mr. O'Connell out the third reading of this Bill in another place. That HonouratJe and Learned Gen tleman said that he now announced to the i gietat supporters of the Protestant Establishent in Ireland that teey never aimed so great a blow at the temporalities of that Church as by as senting to this Bill. Let them lo 4k at the meetings which were taking lace—tumultuous because so large —theolighout Ireland on this subject. If the battle were now to be between the lanaurd and tenant, a worse set of Whitebovs would arise than they had ever vet heard of in Ireland. This was the declaration of an individual who was a strong supporter of her Majesty's Government, and he believed that he was the supporter of the Bill, and he declared that the system of Whiteboyism that would he established under this Bill would be such as had never arisen before. For his own part he trusted that this Bill would produce beneneficial effects, but he should be glad to hear from her Majesty's Ministers whether they believed it would really prove beneficial to the country. ,Bisliop of DERRY was sat'sCed, if this Bill had passed in times cf trat,9uillity and in calmer scenes, that manylament able events that :lad taken place 'never would have occurred. He had recommeudes i the House to adopt steps for the set tlement of the measure the last time he was there, and then stated that it would prove most beneficial to the clergy of the diocese over which he preskte:l. On that occasion the Noble Earl then at the head of the Government was censured by a Noble Marquis, who took an active part in the proceedings of that House, and who was distinguished for his rhetorical powers, for having made an 'unworthy selection in appointing him (the Bishop of Derry) to the diocese which he then held ; and he stated that he would greatly increase the num b:r of Dissenters in his diocese. He was almost ashamed to tr,,uVe the House with this subject, but he was happy to say thet those Dissenters who, they were told, held priests and deacons in utter abhorrence no longer did so, but many of them now constantly attended divine service, and the sons of some of them were at present useful and exemplary Minis ters of the Church. In addition to this he heard'from cre ditable sources that in the diocese sonic dissenting chapels :were thinned every Sunday by the congregations attending divince+ service in the Church, and they did so because they' found t;ie Clergy avoided those topics which were most oh jectiooanle, and confined themselves to their religious duties, which, if strin`ly attended to, must prove beneficial to all. He could not but think that the CLcrgy would be left in a wretched condition but for the kind I,:elinrcs, the unparal leled generosity evinced Towards them by i,he representatives of this lenevelynt country. He thought tn.at a little too much energy had been displayed by the Noble Earl (the Earl of Wicklow,) and the Nuble and Learned Lo:d (Lord Brougham,) whilst they urged their views on the attention of the llouse. The • Earl of MANSFIELD was prepared to make every clnrcbsion of opinion and prejudice with respect to this Inca' but he confessed that he could not be so liberal as to make J C9neessiori which must infringe upon the property of others, pa.fieularly when he. could not help fearing that the result of all tti.:”r concessions would not be a safe and durable peace, but a trere i ollow truce.--( Hear.) The first objec tion which be bad to tt.;:. 1.3111 was, that it would cause a gnat deduction from the in comes of the Clergy. He was willing to give for security of colleen an 10 per cent, but no more. FIB tsould apply the folnciple of .:nmmutation where all the memb?r§ of the community were of the same religion, and where they were of diff.rent religions this regulation was the more called fur, but he could not go the length of assenting, as f•theri had done, W a departure from th,:t justice which ought to be obseived to all parties. The Noble Viscount had stHtei th it the loss on the ar:ears would be ?0 per cel;`., being made up by a sum to be paid by Ow people of Englam i , who might naturally fee I .:luctant to be taus mulcted whet - Obey knew that an expensive Co. cratricut was kept up for carrying tte laws into execution. For his own part, he should not complain it' tfaiAluillity were gained, and that was the object which in duced the consent of the clergy to this Bill. But he con fessed be had fearful doubts of its success. He was justified in this suspicion nut only by the sp'sech which the Noble Earl (the Earl of \%icklow) had read, ald which might be sup posed to have been delivered in a moment of excitement and iiritat:on, but by the deliberate letter procemling from the same party, and published within the last few dqs, in which the writer (M O'Connell) stated that the anocialy of an enablishmeat for the minority nos still in existence, and could not give satisfaction, no opinion in which h.• was afraid " the wish was father to the thought."_( Liar. he..r.) He would now advert to the opinion which we N,ble Lord the Secretary at War had expressed in another place, and on which he should not dwell if it had not pro ceeded from a Cabinet Minister. It was that Noble Lord's ()pinion that this measure could not be final—that i: was impossible that the Catholics of Ireland could be satisfied with it. The Noble Lord, in fact, incorporated himself oils the Roman Catholics, and adopted their sentiments ; and Ito .'need th a t, in roint of honour, or in some such vicar, he could not a4ree even to a large sum being bestowed on edu ration to be distlbuted armeigst lay and clerical persons for the purpose of moral awl rel;gious instruction, unless it were taken from the fa .(11 of the eitabliAed religion. The Nahle Lord had also t'eclartal his conviction that the Protestant Es tablishment could not be maintained. He was net disposed lo cavil with these opinions, for they in part coincided with his owa. He ha Ino right to ask for the information vAich he was about to s rk, but he put it to their Lordships %%limiter it would not be satisfactory to hear from the Noble Viscount.. in b.'s own name and that of his colleagues, whether he differed from the Noble Lord the Secretary at War, or participated in the epini ins which that Noble Lord had expressed ? ( Hear,) The Noble Lord (Howick) was not so important a Member of the Cabinet, lie meant no disrespect, as others who were connect, d uith the Government of Ireland. They wabted something, he thought, to neutralize the letter sent be the :tio'r!e Secretary of Ireland to the Chairman of a tithe meeting. Ile did not mean to say that the No l .ole L trd subscribed to the opinions of that meeting, but it, give their proceedings a Government stamp, and he augmented their importance.—( Cheers.) It was true that the applupria ion clause was withdrawn from this Bill r ; h it nhear.) more luu•.d. M plzwo it than justice did.—( Hear, But he believed toat the intention of introdue i ing !wa that pern r a.b iplc was ait andoned. They agreed_ to h the ,aerdic..s hi. 211 w:•rc made by the clergy; but Bill through ut if it was not ealcii:i:tA to ditpe3se intestine religious dissensions, was it not aPI yk• r !hit body .of m en to make such a sacrifice? AR 00. d was to obtain the declaration of an opinion though it might not reconcile a bi i m ts to the Bill, would professed object.-- "I' c him some h• p, of thus ot t t o a , rtn o ld.fasbioned not to have a par i ( Hear, bear, hear.) lie w-asonding• with declarations, but he ttlity for c onducteorre did Inipe to dies from the Noble Viscount the avowal that he was r solved to suiport the Protestant Established religion i n i'u‘tarquii of ANS DO WNE had listen e d w i t h atten t., ens a kays disposed to do FO, and he was always re the spe, ch of his Noble Friend who had just sat an d he lutist in the outset begin by conceding to him tio , if t hi s .Dill were to be tried in all its parts by the princi. pies of the strictcst justice, and that if they made up their :ninds to admit no remedy for a great and acknowledged evil but on which in every portion of it should proceed upon the .trietest rule of right, they should hardly be able, to reconcile to this measure ; but it was because from-the. ex of many years, the discussions on this subject, and the productjon of ntany plays for extinguishing an evil which had FrezetAq to au incr;asing magnitude, whilst their Lord. 5. on. so i9t LC cf lave Qtly for a ILO ore in ered , in ybY the is il l with Go that d n ot ; oft' lent' Icira'S cans. lov u ttc rly 0-hich ,;rs'l ss ' L• love d , n tion n ten• going NhO IC to uch Du L': frolJ rdsbir great' d '°' , A 1 ; how", e v oo iht oc 11" d )Ir,