The Sun. — London, England, 1810-01-24 00:00:00

. . . to use his,mether toague, unde r many indictments, I not rest with him, for he had sio opportunity Is' Ind 'each indictment consisting of many counts," it forded to him of conveying to,the two Noble Lords was not unnatural, it was, not tnconsistent with , the nature Of the proposal he meant to make. But common justice, that he should hear those indict- ; the Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that' there ments, and the arguments and proofs by which they I Was something - almost absurd in the offer which be were supported, before h' 'have his answer or made/ had made to the tWo . Noble L or d s , add that' it was his defence. When the . H ouse .recollefted that it , highly honourabl e i n th em t o have refused it.— was not until he heard the Hon. G e ntlem an that he Upoti this poi nt h e b egge d to say, that it appeared could be aware of many of the questions which he to him that there were then in existence circum , had to answer, or of many of the indiaments stances which afforded a greater chance of the against which he had to' defend himself, it would, : success of his application than at any other time. he was sure, acquit, him of any thing like intentional The first: was, though this might appear a trifling ..distespea. for not haying risen sooner. It 'was, in consideration, the period of. the year.' Some time point of fa&,.because he expeeted to hear from'the had elapsed since the prorogation of Parliament, Hon. Gentleman, and some of those wit() sat near when political animosities might naturally be sup ' him, all• those charges which he should have 'te : posed to be irritated and augmented by the conte s ts answer, that be had not solicited the a tte n ti on of the in which the di ff erent parties were engaged in Par .- ionse at an earlier period of the debate. There was liament, and the lapse of time. might naturally also another reason why he wished to hear the Hon. be supposed to have abated much of party Gentleman and others, on' that side of the' House, • animosity. This, hOwe'ver, he mentioned only as a before he rose • he wished to know whether th e slight circumstance ; but there were others i n hi s Amendoient which they had proposed was all the ,rn.ind of much more importance: The Hon. Gen , amendment which they meant to offer to. the Ad- • tleman had asked how he could expea that any . dress, or whether they' meant to propose any other union couldtake,place among those who di ff ered alterations. The Amendment which had b een p ro - Iso radically Most certainly very considerable dif posed only applied to that part of the 'Address ferences.thtd subsisted between the Noble fords to whiCh: related to the tender of papers respecting whom he' made the applieation, and the - Adruini-, the expedition to Yialcheren, and would Of course stration, but he thought that (here was less chance leave untouched all the remainder. , He wished to that these differences would prevent an union at that know, therefore ro whether the Gentlemen on the time, because many of those differences had been other.side had mate up their own Minds as to what removed. With respect to Austria, the war had they wanted the House to do upon this occasion— nearly terminated, and therefore the question re whether they-had any other Amendments td offer : - speaing the propriety of taking a part in. the con-, if they had, they were bound in common candour, tests on the Continent, which formed one of the though not perhaps in strict form, to state at once - points of differences ; was on the eve of being rernov-, what ' were their intenti ons . it a p peare d to him ' . .ed. -With rrspea - to Spain and Portugal, hehhought rather eitraordinary that if they had any thing so there could exist tesealifference Of opinion in giving suggest with regard to the other parts s o f t h e Ad- I assistance to those injured nations, as long as they • dress, they had not stated it in the Amendment, for felt the inclination, or possessed the means defend- certainly in their speeches they had,alluded •to the , ing them - selves. That ceiestion, however, was open campaign in Spain and Portugal, as well as to the for discussions', With regard to. America, there cere Expedition to the Scheldt, . though no part of the tainly did appear to exist greater difficulties in re- Amendment applied to . it. But he really. believed , couciling the difference which had subsisted be that the' Gentlemen .on the Other ,aide sho had,, tweets them; but even upon this point the ob spolcen, were not aware of any intention to propose stades - to an union did not appear to be insuperable. any further amendment, if it really existed, for if ' One:of the great leiding points of difference respect ;they had they waSuld in candour' baths announced •ing America arose opon the Orders of Council, that intention. _With' respect to the many questions which the two Noble Lords had represented as most which had been put to him, there was one, to which, imOolitk, and as•beiog big with ruin to the COM+ entering folly into the feeling - which had been so .weer© of this country:. Fortiinately: the policy or :eloquently. expressed by his Right Hon. Friend heh imPolicy of the OrderS in Connell then no longer. -low him (Mr. Canning) he wished.to say as little as .remained a questiOn -of theory ;' it had been deter possible now, or at any other time. . Vpois that- - mine] by the evidence of leis. SO far from having sibje&, therefore, he should only state thus much, ruined the commerce Oldie country, as ' bad been ' that with regard to the trans a ctions to, which the, confidently predieted s they had been prodhaiie of Hoh.• Gentleman had alluded, he could assure him the most beneficielcons'equences. Hewes nowhappy - and the House, that he Waa s entirely ignorant of 'to have it-in his,pow - er•to state, that the trade of this them until the close of the •Sesaions, of Parliament, country in the last year, that 'is to the quarter end end when he did krfow ,pf them, he cartainly did ing in 080berlast, WEIS, not only greater than it was conceive, whatever might bethe motives which in- the yetis, before, but than it was even in the most .dared his Right Hon - . Frienctto wish for the remov a l 1 prosperous period.- The export of manufactures of the Notate Lord, that lie (the Chancellor of,Ex- . and of foreign . produce last year exceeded,: by seven, chsquer) should be a party in them; 'more espehially . *Mona, our trade in the most favourable period of as an. Expedition of great importance was at that .r peace, and by teh millions that of any year ,of time in great forwardness, with Whicithe Noble 'j war. He did not Mean to say that there were Led (Castlereagh) was intimately-connected. All snot other circumstances which had, operated to that he then did arose frpm an anxious deiire to augment our commerce, but he had stated enough preserve to the country the servii•es of. both theins a to shear that there was nythingsoineonsistent with 'divicitials alluded•to: Feeling as, he did the utmost' corimen sense—nothing so' • calculated to ruin the' admiration of the splendid talents and eloqueneeof 1 trade of this country, in the Orders . of Council, as. bis Right' Hon. Friend,(Mr. Canning); and thinking the Noble. Lords h a d contended. He'liad therefore most high highly of the abilities Of his,Noble Friend flattered 'himself that he should have been able to (Lord iCastlereagh) - , he certainly did every thing that ,•, remove one great ground of difference between those ' it was in his power to do to retain both of them in ' Noble Lords and himself, by arty appeal to expert- i Ike service of their country. This was }is only ob. • once and the incontestible esidetice of tails, Ano jeat ; never having.partakesh'in any opinion of the Cher` essential point of.difference certainly was the inability of his 'Noble Friend, but thinking that Catholic questiou; but there again it appeared to , be was as able, as useful, and asefficient a Minister him that the obstacles to an union had been in a as that office ever possessed. Having. said thus' . great degree' removed. After the. Noble Lord and much, • he, should not go any further • into the the Right Hon. Gentleman, who had presented the question.' , Catholic Phtitions .to both HOuses of Parliament, [We have. given as accurately as we could the Chance llOr of the Exchequer's language upon this point, but as he - spoke tither in a low tone of voice, it is possible that we may have Leen _mistaken in Soine of his expressions.) • The Hon e Gentleman had next put to'him some questions ,respecting the situation which he had the honour to bold in his Majesty's Councils, to-which Le begged to answer in the'mast distinta manner : that s4uation was not in any manner an obje& of his own desire ; on the contrary, if his wishes could have been , realized, another person would now have held the office of First Lord of the Trea sury. After the resignation of the Noble D u k e , then at the Lead of the Administration, his Ma jesty had desired him and a Noble Friend of hiS, to-make an application to two Noble Lords; for the , purpose 'of forming : an extended Administration: This command his. Noble Friend awl he obeyed, . and. upon this foundation the Hon. gentleman had • accused him of having hawked about the officeS of . Goverement.—[Here Alr.Whitbread said, , dcross the table, " IVo, no.' I—The 'Chancellor of the Ex chequer continued, and 'observed,: that : that was . what he understood the Hon. Gentleman to say, and the whole tenor 'of his argum e nt provedi that that'l was what be meant. The situation of the corintry, was obviously such as required as strong an • Admi nistration as could be for Med, .and he did think that there.were circumstances at the time the application was Made,. which rendered improbable' that that, application would not have-been ,unsuccessful. But it he was' to be accused of arrogance, and ,of wishing to reign, with;aut a rival, it was strange that he should have made the. application to the two ' Noble Lords,' and more especially when he rtriformed. the Hoase ' -.•that the . first proposition he Shobld have mate_ to. them, if they had given h . +, an opportunity of stating it, would have 'been t:'i they should de-. terthine who should be the Firstlui: of the Treasury, ith respe& to himself, he again repeated that it was a situation -which not. desire. That he had afterwards, accepted the Offite......w as •true, and ,his principal motive waOkat he .felt himself bound, b eyery: consideration of duty, not to suffer his . -Sovereign to be diCiated, to; and not to 'leave- his Majesty without a Minister. - He had already stated . the proposition he meant- to make-with respe& to the• Office of First Lord 'of the , Treasury ; ; with re gard to the other atlic'es of Gove r nm ent , , it was na- lurktl 0 conceive th i at they were to be filled by those Ito centributed to the formation] of the Admioi-; titration. If tlYere was any 'thing in this staternent tit rested solely upon his 'assertion, the fault did had been disavowed by the Catholics, with regard to the offer which they had made relative to the veto on the appointment of Bishops, he did think that tilt), would naturally have come to the determination of not again supporting that Petition, until the- Ca , tholics should, agree to that proposition, which the Noble Lord and the Right Hoo, Gentleman had deemed so essential. And as it did not seem likely th.li the Catholics of Ireland would agree to that proposition, there did seem reason to believe that there was a greater chance of a concurrence of opi . -pion, to a certain extent at least, between those two Nobte Lords and the Administration, than had lieretolose existed. Under all these circumstances, he certainly did think there was a great probability . that'. his proposition would have been acceded to, and that those two Noble Lords would have con-. curred with % him in thinking, that in the present -state of the Country, it ought to be the wish of all , men, of all parties, that the strongest and most efficient Governuient should be formed. These ,were the reasons which had induced him to make ' the offer upon which the Hon. Gentleman had commented so strongly. ,But !then the Hon. Gen- 1 tleman asked, why, after what he called this symp; ,!tom• of weakness,, as it had been called, he had accepted his present offfee ? He had accepted it because his offer had been rejeded, and because he could Not. reconcile it to his' duty' to leave his Sovereign in a situation to be did - fated to. If there clad been 'any thing unconstitutional in his cpncind, he Called . upon Gentlemen to , • point it- out, for he was yet to • learn that there was any thing unconstitutional in fidelity to'his So vereign. .He would not do any one of the Gentle then opposite to him, the injustice io suppose that, under •Stinilar circumstances, they would not have adopted similar conduct. He waS sure there wcis not -one of them that would -not have felt it his duty in such a case to have adhered to his Sove reign] and to hive given him every Constitutional support. The _Hon. Gentleman declared that he wished to see the present AdMinistration removed;' and another set of • Ministers appointed io their room. He did not - mean to speak presumptinausly, though the Hon: Pentleman, might think his lan guage had that tendency 5 but looking at' the Grn tlemen opposite, to hire, and giVing them fill', credit for the talenti and eloquence which they s' possessed, he did not think that they would possess more of the good opinion ,of the Hodse and of the Country than he and his dxl. The Hon. Gentleman had expressed his decided disapprobation of the whole condutt Of Admieistratinn, from the lime the • 1.02 , 1-?0N : tinted k I CpARD 114 RRI S, No. 4, Mallett.coutt, Pow-street ; •and Sat 09 . Svx,QFFIcz, kip. J 32 sti4ocli whtop 4c*iiisemerys, Ciders f Duke of Portland eamointo office . ; but in tleciding upon the chargter of an Administration, it was ne cessary to compare their claims with those of others, and he should be .glad to know what reason there 1 , was .to suppose that the state of this country Was' worse, with regard either to its foreign or domestic • - relations, Under their Adhiinistrstion, than it would. . ' have been if the Gentlemen opposite to him had re • tnained in office.? , Russia, indeed, when the Duke of Portland's Administration came . into office, was at war with France, but she soon made peace; and became the Ally of, Franee ; but no blame could be • attributed to the Noble-Duke or'his Colleagues for the Treaty of, Tilsit; indeed, from the language of Russia (who constantly com Pained of the preceding . Administration, for their unwillingness to make any . exertions in the common cause), it is obvious• that the defedion of Russia must be attributed to them. He knew it would be said, that it arose,frotri the t armament which had been sent against Copenhagen ; but did any map seriously'believe that there'was no ,thing in the Treaty of Tilsit which would have in , duce(' Russia to take part .with France, eved if .the armament tO Copenhagen had not taken, place ? The _only:difference would' have been, that if that measure had net been , adopted, we should have all 'th e. Northern Pow ers against us - with . much greater means of annoyance than they now possess, and that we should have been shut out of the Baltic ' in stead of having the c om ma nd o f th a t Sea. With respe& to the affairs of the Peninsula, he could not tell how the Hon. 'Gentlemen opposite to him .would have aeed, if they had remained in office, but he was inclined to think that upon every prin t' ciple of policy and feeling_they would have felt it expedient to . give every assistance in their poWer to Spain. Judging, however, as well as he could of .the state of the world, he was firmly convinced that the state of Spain was much better - now, as far as concerned this country, than it was when the Duke of Portland's Administration came into office. Nay, if France' should conquer, Spain, an eient which he sincerely deprecated, she twould hold that country in a manner which would afford her much less means of annoying this- country than she did then. France then drew immense supplies from Spain; and- in feet commanded all her resources, pecuniary, naval and military. It was unnecessary to point out how different the case was now, or even how different it would , be if France should succeed in her -atrooiOus designs again s t Spain. Having said, thus much, he should now advert to a subjeEt which would certainly be much better discussed when the materials were before tha House. He. had been asked, what were the means' ing of that part of the Address relative to' the In qiury ? It did not appear to him that it required any explanation. 'The Address certainly did notpledge the House to institute inquiry, bu it did not pre vent it; it left that point open toithe'decision of the House, when the documents, were produced'. Cer tain information would be laid before the - House, and then it wouldbe for the House to decide w'he ther it would, call for more, whether it would insti tute an inquiry at the Bar, whether it, would order an inquiry in a Committee, or whether it would institute any inquiry at all- With respeo to the Expedition to the Scheldt, that subjed had been so ably discussed by his Noble Friend (Lord Castle reagh), and by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. tan ning); that it was not necessaiy, for him to say much about . it. He wished; however, that the House would be ar in mind the state of Austria, of the 'Tyrol, and of the North of Germany, at the time that Expedition was undertaken,, and he was sure that Gentlemen would admit the propriety i and even the necessity, of attempting some diversion to distraa the power of the enemy'. The, Honour able Gentleman had stated, _that there was a 'differ- • • s once of' opinion . .between the- language 'of the Speech and that of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr.. Canning). There appeared, however, :to be no difference - whatever between them. The Expedi tion would not have been undertaken merely , for the purpose of destroying these works ; but- it by no means followed that it was not a very desirable object to attain, and he was sure tbat when the' question came,to ,be examined, it . would not be found .to be one Of slight consequence. " The Hon. Gentleman had stated, that the destrUCtion of these works was a matter of little •importance to France. He wished to know how the Hon.. Gent. knew that fact ;, to him it appeared a - matter (livery great im portance ,to deprive the enemy,lor two or three years, of the uad of a most important naval station. But the expedition had undoubtedly d much greater ob ject,viz. the destruction of the French Naval force in the Scheldt, and their naval arsenals. Gentlemen, he believed, were not, aware of.,the extent of the Fre'och •Naval'fdree in that -quarter : nine or ten sail of the line had actually been launched, and an equal num ber were in a state of preparation ; it surely then could not require much. argument to shew the pro priety of making the. greatest 'exertions to destroy such a force.. When that expedition was undertaken, Ministers did not look, upon its accomplishment as certain, neither did they think it would have the,ef. feCt of making Buonaparre withdraw a large portion of his troops from tLe Danube ; but they did think that it would have the effect nt preventing him from drawing reinforcements thither, and cottidering how nearly the armies of - France and Austria were at one time balanced, it surely would have been a most lin- portant service to Austria to prevent Buonaparte from reinforcing his, armies . with 20 or 25,000 men. This would have been a most desirable object, even afier the armistice was concluded. Upon this point, whatever might,be the opinion of the Gen tlemen opposite to him, he was .happy to say, that Ministers had the evidence of Austria in their fa- your for it was a fact that Austria had approved of the expedition, and hid even sent to request that the island of Waleheren -should not be given up, as it would afford the means of making an important diversion in her favour, if hostilities should be re newed. With regard ,to the,appointment of Lord Chic-' ham to the command of the expedition, the Gen- ilemen,opposite Lad 'indulged, themselves in some _ _ observations which he thought might very well have been spared . . They must be aware that if an ingtiry was to take place, it was most essential to ju4tice that,it should take place:.without any prejudication of the individuals. He would osk these Gentlemen whether they, considered it as fair, &cause a man "was 4n adversary in politics, that he was to be at- Published by WILLIAM ARMIGER SCRIPPS, South Molton-street, Gwvenor_tqugq tiw Paper,, Letters for Oc.4difor, 4c, tpot-paia), m4xlc.oo 404t.es,s,NV.i ticked in such a Matinet, and his' military chat ter assailed, without any inquiry whaiever., Host, General opposite to him (Tarleton), would, l► was sure, feel himself most unjustly treated, if military condu& was attacked merely on ~the sco of his politics, and if he were to be condemned on heard. Upon this point he should only make more'observation„ viz, t h at t h e resu l t of the ingo; would in a great measure decide the question 0° tive to the propriety ,or the impropriety of the .0 ' pointment of that Noble Lord t o th e commae d the Expedition. He could not, also, upon this oc: casion, avoid expressing hi s regret at t h e manne r which ' another Noble Lord (Wellington) been - attacked- in his absence ; if this prat'icol were persisted in, it old damp the ardour, 0 check the spirit of our Officers, for they would r out to fight the battles of the country with the Pie' lancholy cotiviaion that however great their exec' tions might ,be, their political .adversaries would iQ their absence eagerly seize npon , every little eves' that could be construed ieto adisaster, for the pet' pose of Wounding their feelings, and attacking that. chara6terS. The Hon. Gentleman who Mad second.° the Address had also, in his opinion,, in an uniustifil able inanner, commented 4011sereeral military 015' cers employed on most important services In Spain,b had called them m ilit ary m i ss i onar i es. S urely it cou ld not be supposedt hat gentlemen of high private!chariC - :' ter and professional reputation could feel any thingslike a . personal interest in keeping up the delusion, as it was called, with respect to the real state of Spiv. But in the whole of the speech of the Gentleman to whom he was row alluding, there was no part which he more sincerely regretted than that part of it ie which he spoke of the affairs of Spain,. and of the exertions of the Spanish people.- • Did - the defenders ' of Saragossa and Gerona deserve the epithet', which the Honourable Gentleman had bestowee upon them. He begged the House to • look at tits nature of Ole contest whiche Spain had to sustain, and at the resistance sloe had so )long made to Of immense force employed by France against her and he would then ask, .whether the gallant people of that cotintry deserved the abuse 'which had iteeti• heaped upon them ? Spain was not yet subdued, ,nor was she fleapit : her spirit was not subdued, nor ,were her resources exhausted. Surely then such lan guage ds they had heard that 'night, qught not ta have been used ? He begged to ask what effect that , language might pro d uce i n S pa i n, if it was believed by the. Spaniards that such was thee opinion entertained of them br the people and the Parliament of England. But even supposing, that the c o nt est i n w h ic h S pa i n was now este-,, gaged could be looked on merely on British grounds, still we were bound by every principle of policy to give them as much assistance as we could, as the most effeetual mode of weakening the power 'of France. With respeft to the - late campaign, he could not agree with the Honourable Gentle men on the other side of the 'House ; he could not. agree that in any instance disgrace had fold lowed. our arms. The movements of General Moons had, he was convinced, saved the south of Spain in 1808 ; the march of SirArtlicr Wellesley bad saved it in 180 g. An Hon. General opposite to him had given a confident opinion that Portugal 'could not be. defended with 30;000 ; but the Hon. General seemed to forget that there was a o...tive force of 40,000 Portuguese, trained and disciplined by British officers. There was only one pip t more to which. he wished to advert, the HOnourafile Gentleman-, who spoke' last had asked his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning, when he had no t a n opportunity of answering, w /ether he had not kept from Parlia ment last hsession a document_ which would have justified Mr. Erskine for signing the Treaty with America. If there existed such a document it had escaped,his recollection, and he was convinced that whoever had given the Hon._ Genflernan his information - had misled -him. When this sub jeCt was • undor discussion last session his Right Honourable F i riend (Mr. Canning) bad stated • his reasonstfor producing the document which was then produced * viz: to justify his Majesty's Govern,. ment for refusing to agree to the Treaty signed by Mr. Erskihe. He produced the instructions.sont to that 'Gent ; to sheW that they did not warrant him in sign ing that Treaty. His Rt. Hen. Friend also states, at that lime that what he was then saying, was not in tended as an attack 'upon 'Mr. Erskine, but that there were other documents which might be produced if that Gent. 'felt them necessary for his justificatiob.. Upon the whole be was convinced that the House . could not agree' to the Amendment, even upon the :grounds stated by,a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite te. him (Mr. -Bathurst) and it -would. Sae that the Amendment did not pledge it either to enter into an inquiry, or tu'avoid one, nor did it pledge the, House to any opinion, upon any-one point, of the concluti of-Ministers. Mr. TIERNEY spoke at some length, and ‘Vas re_ plied to by Mr: • Wharton.' The House then divided on '-the; Amendment, when the nurnpers were, For Miniters . - - 2,3 For the Ammdment Majority - The AddreSs, it originally stood, was then car- Tied wit h oet a division, and at H a il- past Fi ve o ' c l oc k the Rouse ad journed. THE SU N. SOLISI QUIS DICIKS FALSUAS AUDtILT ? LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24, 1810. Our Falmouth Letter, dated the. 21st instant, says, —H s Majesty's gun-brig Crocus arrived here yesterday, having recaptured a pani'bh brig ftern. Alicant bound to London, laden *ith Spanish wool. She was] taken, on the 16th instant, by a French schooner . privateer of sixteen' guns, a few leagues to -the west - of &illy, which priva teer had also captured five others, among 'which was. the Greyhound lugger, of Guernsey. The Master and five of the crew were on board the privateer. ~.....,.,..,...... It 4BER ~. THEATI C)- MORR( Nill be pert Count IJII Govern Barr) Cou The Empi Sec wi' Or tiarlequ B it Titnothl Sir Mar rrh, try 2s . hew p art ~eed Well (), aturday Richarde"• 111 D ran '. e r e h,,.. re( " I.lh 4, E anc ; Ad , erth e s et sarAnteci t(I:r 41 EM [ f orm theSc MU tros,hkb s• p rict, e zi as. b lioxes an( ti vatt: 1.:1;he I)00 r Ttanc e tc th eye s _ 4 n ii NigZt P rite: toA n ew P 0' 1 , 44111 hi _ced, , URA IIE vv. gene corn i AS HI...EN jINT. " It h the \v l nd of w S i i ii i :;; Fur 1 "'!A M l'art of t I a()n, and S receiv 1' E lion will t to rt and alltnd son , For tt \Vi m po j ceivi and