The Sun. — London, England, 1836-02-13 00:00:00

1.0.3... IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 12 The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at five o'clock. A Message from the Commons by Mr. HOME and others, asked for a conference with their Lordships on the expediency of abolishing the present mode of engrossing Acts of Parlia ment in black letter, and substituting a plain round band. On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, the conference was agreed to be held forthwith in the Committee-room, No. 5, and the Lord Privy Seal, the Duke of Ilamilton, Viscount Lorton, the Earl of Albemarle, and the Bishop of —, were appointed to conduct the same. Lord HOLLAND presented a petition from the prisoners in the Fleet, in favour of a Bill for abolishing imprisonment for debt. Lord WHARNCLIFFE postponed his motion for the pro duction of the names of the gentlemen recommended to the Magistracy, by Town Councils, to the Home Office, from Monday to Tuesday next. WAR IN SPAIN. Before the Lords appointed to hold the conference hai pro ceeded to meet the Commons, The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose. He said it was with considerable difficulty and reluctance that he endeavoured to offer a few observations upon the subject of our Foreign Policy. He vas sorry to bring forward such an impor tant subject so early in the Session, but, as he had been precluded from offering a few observations on that part of the Speech which referred to Spain, he felt that he was bound tc take an early o pportunity of calling their Lordships' attention to the matter. He had on many occasions been obliged to animadvert upon t h e r e fusal of all information from the G o vernment, and the indifference with which he had been treated by the Noble Viscount, when he had felt it his duty to ask any question relative to Spain. Last Session the Noble Lord, when alluding to the convention of Lord Eliot, had said that there was no doubt but that it would save all English men engaged in the cause. Events had shown his ignorance, and be must say that-there seemed to be a great deal of in difference on the part of the Government to the question. They bad been loud in their vituperation of Dan Carlos for the order he had put forth ; but it was a well-known fact that he bad not had recourse to such a severe measure, until he was driven to it by the brutalities of the Christino Generals—it was a mere matter of retaliation. He was of opinion that the immediate object of that part of the Speech which related to Spain—the Government meant to have it understood that the Government of Spain by its prudence, firmness, snii. vigour, would soon be enabled to restore peace to the Peninsula. Surely then the House ought to be put in possession of the grounds for such a hope. Within eight months there had been in Spain no less than five or six heads of administrations—the last of whom he believed had been transported from the neighbourhood of the Stock Ex change—and what had been his course? He had first of all tried to raise an army of 100,000 men, and not one-tenth of that number had responded to the call. With respect to his finance, it was stated that he had promulgated a plan con cocted in his own brain, but which he had not yet divulged. He had dissolved the Cortes, which only a few months before he had called upon for a vote of confidence. He had seen his army marched through Vittoria to the mountains and again igno miniously driven back. Were these grounds for such a a hope as was expressed in the Speech ? Only a few months ago they had heard or seen a Speech delivered by the Foreign Secretary in another place, to which he would now allude, for the purpose of shewing what confidence could be placed in the prophesying of that Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had stated that be looked upon the success of Don Carlos as impossible—that there were only 10,000 or 12,000 men in arms a gainst the Government in one or t wo of the remote provinces of Spain—that it was only to put down those partial and local insurrections that their efforts were to be made—that the resistance of the Queen's authority had been confined to two or three particular provinces, and that no disturbance had broken out. Would the Noble Secretary now say that no other province had declared in favor of Don Carlos, and that disturbances had broken out in no other provinces? In addition to the 10,000 or 12,000 in arms in Basque and Navarre, he could tell the Government there were 80,000 or 90,000 ; and with such statements as these, how was it possible they could express confidence in the prudence,vigor, and firmness of the present government of Spain? He called upon his Majesty's Ministers to show in one instance in which the Government of Spain had manifested prudence, vigour, or firmness. There was nothing mentioned in his Ma jesty's Speech relative to the Belgians. Was he to congratu late the Noble Lord opposite that the question with Hol land was decided? Were they to express such confidence as they were called upon to do, he had no hesitation in saying that it would meet with the most perfect derision through out the whole of Europe.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") — There were no doubt many Noble Lords, who might be so very deeply interested in the domestic policy of their own country, that their attention was not awakened to Foreign affairs ; but he Would say, look to those great allies who had carried this country through the great strug gle in which she bad been . engaged. What would those peat allies say when they found it was declared by his Majesty's Speech that the firmness, prudence, and vigour of the Government of Spain gave a confi dent hope of a speedy termination of the warfare ? When he found these passages in the Speech, deeply in terested as he felt in the Foreign policy of Europe— when he felt further the degradation in which a profession had been placed by the mode in which the warfare had been carried on —carried on in a manner that would certainly throw shame and defeat, and everything that was disgraceful, on the British troops, and give the praise of any victory to the Spaniards--he could not refrain from bringing the subject forward.—(Her, hear.) Then, as to the measures which it had been stated in another place, were adopted for the purpose of alleviating distress and privation.—( Hear.) The Secretary of State, who had such influence with the Queen, bail stated that he had made application for the relief of the prisoners, and requested they might be released. This was stated in answer to a letter to the Bishop of Leon, in which the Noble Secretary instantly departed from the suavi tory mode. He could not conceive how the Noble Lord de fended that letter. Such being the case, he hoped the Noble Viscount opposite would be so good as to place the let ter of the Noble Lord, and the answer thereto, on the table of the House.—( Hear, hear.) If the Noble Duke had remained in office who had acted fairly by all parties, he was quite sure they would not have heard of all those atrocities which bad made Europe shudder. It was in vain to deny that the example of these butcheries was not infectious. He was sorry that his countrymen had been induced —encouraged — by the present Ministry to leave their country on such a detest able mission.—( Hear, hear.) His wish was to show to the people of England that his Majesty's Government, instead of boldly carrying on a war—( Hear, hear) —had done it in a manner degrading to the character of the En g lish na tion and to every Englishman. For what was the fact? Why after Don Carlos had spared the lives of several Englishmen, the British Legion, the soldiers of Col. Evans, returned to Vittoria (gunk, and massacred upwards of 150 Spaniards. It was true the officers interferedt to prevent them, but it was of no avail. If therefore the officers could not prevent the men from adopting such a cour se, what must the state of their discipline he? In his opinion Don Carlos had carried on his operations with vigour and firmness, while there was none on the other side.— (Hear, hear) He was in hopes that his Majesty's Govern ment would have been induced to have pursued a very diffc- • rent course ; such not being the case, he must enter his protest against that part of his Majesty's Speech which related to the affairs of Spain.—( Hear, hear, hear. ) He thought the House of Commons, reformed as itevas, would be very unwilling to supply the means of carrying on a war in Spain. such as that which was now waging there. He would when he obtained the retuans for which be moved, enter into a full developement of the question.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the paragraph in his Majesty's speech on this subject was se fatal a one as had ever been in any such document before. T e Yo'ile Marquis concluded by moving for the return of adsich he bad given notice. Lord MELBOURNE said there could be no objection to the retui us moved for. The assistance afforded tcr the Queen of Spain was distinctly undertaken to be paid for ; and he might remark, that the Duke of Wellington when in office declared himself ready to act as the Government of the present day were acting, should the circumstances in which Spain is now placed occur. That was conduct in keeping with t'he general line of policy adopted by the Noble Duke, when he found the interests of the country, or the honour of the nation, pledged on the subject. With respect to the supply being unlimited, he would say the agreement was to give such assistance as the circum stances of the case required. The extent to which they went should be regulated by the events which might occur, and by the discretion of the Government, at the same time with a due regard to public economy, and the condition of the country. He thought it strange that the Noble Marquis had not taken an earlier opportunity of bringing the subject forward, and it ap peared somewhat extraordinary that he had not spoken of the paragraph at the proper time, viz., when the address was moved.—( !leer, hear.) He could not complain of a want of opportunity, for their Lordships knew the facility which was given for the introduction of any subject at any time.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to what he inferred from the expression in the Speech regarding France, he ( Lord Melbourne) would remark, that instead of being calculated to lead to the supposition that jealousies existed between this country and other Powers, it was quite the contrary ; but was it not natural to expect that, recollecting the rivers of blood which had floseod in contests between England and France--(Hear)—that some congratulatory expression should be used, that events enabled them to assure the world of the existence of a state of things which gave an earnest of the future happiness and per manent union of these countries ?—( Loud cheering. ) The Government had made many applications to Don Carlos with respect to the Decree, to which reference had been made, and the answer had always been, that the Decree was still in force, and would be continued to be executed. He had not heard of the atrocious cruelties charged upon the Christinos by the Noble Lord, but he would certainly make it hip duty to inquire with respect to them. The Noble Lord hadilien gone on to vilify the British troops serving in Spain, and he had said that they were a disgrace to the very name of a soldier. From all that, he (Lord Melbourne) had heard of the conduct of those* troops, it had been such as would:reflect honour upon those soldiers which the Noble Marquis had had the honour of leading in the same country. He - could not agree in the princi ple laid down in that House, that the Parliament was not to be called upon to pledge itself to any til t s y s t, frit ,t ?L be called upon to act. Nor principles eould upon which he agre e wi a : . whafiralisbck"stated in the other House, th a t we had no - i either in i 1,...* . right to spec 1! . . anent of another 'country. There were which it would be necessary to do both . t. ' '' ml ; w h ic h 4,,„, ciyopmstances .n t h e G o vernment of S ..,,. , ?..:. pinll Consideringoeca occasions i o t h u e s now stood, 244 • - . he for one felt convinced that the language of the King's Sprech was fully borne out. He believed he had answered all the points made by the Noble Marquis. He had only, in con clusion, to say, that be had no objection to'offer to the motion of the Noble Lord. The Earl of ABERDEEN was sure that their Lordships would concur with what had been stated by the Noble Mar quis and the Noble Viscount, as to the horror they felt at the atrocities that had been committed in Spain. He could not but feel sorry that his Majesty was advised to permit the enlistment of his subjects into the service of the C4ueen of Spain. He was sorry his Majesty's Government had been induced to suspend an existing law for that pur pose. He, however, thought, on the whole it would be better for their Lordships to let the subject drop where it was at present, and not enter into any further discussion. He fully concurred in what the Noble Viscount and the Noble Marquis had asserted as to the horror and disgust which all must equally feel at the mode of warfare carried on in Spain.—( Hear, hear.) He deeply regretted it ; and he was sorry to learn that those barbarities had not been confined to the two contendin g parties only, but that a third party • which had interfered between them had committed similar atrocities.—(Hear.) Whether they might look for the ter mination of the existing dispute to the prudence a nd vigour . . THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, FEBOARY 13, 1836. of the present Government . was a question which he was no prepared to decide. He felt that he must wait to see such evidences of that vigour and prudence as might lead him to anticipate such a result. He rose, however, principally to state that although he might abstain from entering into any discussion upon the general policy of his Majesty's Govern ment, it was not on account of any approbation of that policy —very far from it, indeed—that he did so. He did not quarrel with the Noble Lord for having acknowledged the legitimacy of the existing Government of Spain ; and what ever might be his opinion of the treaty concluded for that purpose, he was the last person to deny that its obligations should be fulfilled honourably, fully, and in the strictest sense. The Noble Viscount could not but do justice to the conduct of the Noble Duke lately at the head of the Foreign Department ; he would, indeed, confidently ask the Noble Viscount whether, while his Noble Friend held the Seals of that Department, the provisions of that treaty had not been fulfilled honourably and faithfully ? But, on the other hand, if the Noble Marquis inferred therefrom that his Noble Friend entertained any different opinion as to the policy of the treaty than he (the Earl of Aberdeen) had expressed, he was greatly mistaken ; for it was one thing to approve of entering into engagements, and another to fulfil them when entered into , and when being sanctioned by the ratification of the King they became binding so long as they subsisted. A Noble LORD, who was very imperfectly heard in the gallery, alluded to the report which was prevalent of six of his Majesty's subjects having been captured by Don Carlos and shot, and was understood to submit some question to the Noble Viscount opposite (Lord Melbourne). Viscount MELBOURNE said a few words in a tone equally indistinct; their purport seemed to be, that it was quite cer tain that the individuals in question had been shot, but that no official information of the fact had been received lay his Ma jesty's Government. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said a few words in reply, and the conversation then dropped. MR. BUCKINGHAM'S CASE. Lord DENMAN presented a petition from certain persons in the Isle of Wight, for compensation to Mr. Buckingham. _ ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS' JURISDICTION. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose for the purpose of laying on their Lordships' table a Bill for the Consolidation of the Ecclesiastical Courts of this country, and for making provision for the more effectual administration of the justice now administered in these Courts. It would not be conve nient that he should enter much into the details of the pro posed measure, but at the same time it would not be inconve nient, as the measure was of great importance, and as the grievances complained of in these Courts had been the subject of much discussion, that he should shortly give an outline of the plan which he_should have the honour of proposing. Their Lordships were aware that there were a multiplicity of matters which might come under the consideration of the Ecclesiastical Courts—that some of them were of the utmost importance-- that others were important, though in regard to them the Courts had very much fallen into desuetude ; in fact, one rea son why the country had escaped many grievances of which it would have had to complain in respect of these Courts was. that they had practically ceased to exercise much of the juris diction vested in them. Amongst these matters the most im. portant must be considered those which concerned the probate of wills, or the administration of property, when a party died intestate. In former times, when the property of this country consisted principally of land, and when personal property was comparatively of little value, the importance of that jurisdic tion was not so materially felt ; but at the present moment, when so large a proportion of the riches of the country passed, on the death of a person intestate, either under his will, or to those who came in succession as next of kin, it was important to provide for the due administration of that jurisdiction. Another important matter which came under the cognizance of these Courts was their matrimonial jurisdiction—questions as to the validity of marriage—the nullity of marriage—repa rat ion after marriage—the restoration of conjugal rights—all questions of extreme importance. The Ecclesiastical Courts had also jurisdiction over legacies—a jurisdiction which they could but very imperfectly perform, because they could not interfere with questions of legacies relating to trust or charges on land. Practically, therefore, there was but little business done in these Courts in the exercise of that jurisdiction ; but still there was a power in certain cases of resortinc , to these Courts for the purpose of compelling payments. Another ju risdiction which they possessed was given for the purpose of compelling the payment of tithes ; but there the infirmity of the Courts was apparent, for their jurisdiction ceased if there arose a question touching prescription or a modus; then other Courts interfered. Their jurisdiction in matters relating to church rates was very imperfectly executed, and would be much better exercised in another manner. He passed over such little questions as those relating to pews in churches, and came to that important branch of their jurisdiction which it was not intended to affect by this Bill, namely, the jurisdiction of the Bishops over their Clergy. That was a matter properly belonging to the Church. As the law now stood, it was well known that its provisions were not sufficient for the object which they had in view, and that they were extremely ex pensive and dilatory. A jurisdiction more effective might be established, though not by the present Bill, for the pur pose of enabling the Bishops to correct errors which might have crept into the conduct of their Clergy, and to ex ercise a salutary authority on that subject. There were some other subjects of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, which, fortunately, were not very often resorted to. Such as those which were exercised pro salute anima, with the intention of cor recting immoral practices, and which it was sortietimos at tempted to enforce, though at a great expense. He would pass over the jurisdiction in cases of indecent brawling in a church, and other equally unimportant matters. But all those matters together constituted a large scope of jurisdiction though, as he had before said, the power of the Courts, even when they ex ercised their authority, was inadequate to carry their orders into execution, as they had no other means of enforcing them but by ecclesiastical censures—by processes of monition, ex communication, and suspension. Statutes had been passed which gave them the power of applying to other Courts to en force their jurisdiction • but a more inconvenient process than this—one more palpably showing the infirmity of the jurisdic tion of the Ecclesiastical Courts—could not be devised. Their Lordships were not, perhaps, aware of the number of Courts in the kingdom which possessed the power of exercising this very extensive jurisdiction ; the number was 386. Some of them were constituted on a much better footing than others. There were 300 Peculiars, as they were called, whose jurisdiction had originated in earlier times—in the days of Popery, for instance, when certain privileges which formed the basis of it had been granted to peculiar monasteries and other places ; in some cases the lord of a manor possessed that jurisdiction. One great inconvenience which resulted froin it was this : that whilst there were so many Courts to which a party might resort for proving a will, it was difficult in the extreme fur -any other party who was desirous of disputing the probate, or the right of administering, to know in which of them he ought to enter his caveat (to use the legal expression) for that purpose. Again, parties were unwilling to resort to those local Courts, for the purpose of taking out letters of administration, because if it should happen that any part of the estates to which they referred were found to be situated out of the jurisdiction of the particular Court in which they were taken, the letters would be entirely void. Practically, therefore, although these numerous local Courts existed, application was usually made to the Prerogative Courts, because the letters taken out in them were sap e to apply to the whole property in question. Another bad effect of the system was this : that it was impos sible that Courts so constituted could have Judges competent to decide on the matters brought before them, or Advocates capable of submitting such arguments as ought to be addressed to them.----( Hear, hear, hear.) A further grievance which followed from the constitution of these Courts was the multiplicity of appeals to-which they gave rise. There was an appeal first to the Diocesan Court, then to the Court of Arches, and then, till recently, to the Court of Dele gates, but now to his Majesty in Council. Through theSe three Courts of Appeal a party might drag his adversary on any question that arose in the cause between them, on the ve-y first step indeed in it; and it was common for parties to ap peal in some preliminary matters, in order to get out of the jurisdiction of the inferior Courts. The Noble and Learned Lord then proceeded to remark upon the importance of having; some general place in which might be deposited the deeds which affected the property of people in this country. Objec tions he said had been made—unfounded objections he thought, to such an arrangement, on the ground that it might disclose a history in relation to the titles which would not be desirable for the parties possessing them. No such objection could possibly be urged in respect to wills, because from the present constitu tion of the Ecclesiastical Courts all wills of personalty must be deposited somewhere ; they cannot be acted on till they have been so deposited, and till probate is obtained they are acces sible to all who have the good fortune of finding out where they may be deposited. These wills then being accessible, nothing could be more inconvenient than the having many places for depositing them ; whereas it would be highly convenient that there should to one place for that purpose and for probate — the metropolis for instance. The Noble Lord then alluded to the efforts which had been already made for an improvement of st thene . lra William t l h 2 e , a inferiorßi l 1 Scott, Ca fordo Courts brtethseen; purposea b n ro d ug a h brought similarifn d b e y. de stroy roeor)de Stowell,ixni g s ti the e s 3m jurisdiction measure had been recommended in the report of the Ecclesias tical Commissioners, in 1832; that report being signed by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Bishops of Lincoln, Durham, Bangor, and St. Asaph, the then Chief Justice of the King's Bench, Lord Tenterden, the late Chief Justice of the Com mon Pleas, Lord Wynford, Sir Herbert Jcnner, Dr. Lushings ton, and others. The Bill which he should lay on their Lord ships' table would carry into effect some of the provisions suggested in that report c and that one of them, in which those eminent Prelates had concurred for the destruction of the in. ferior jurisdictions; the only point on which there was matter of doubt, was whether they should all be destroyed? The Bill left to the Bishops their jurisdiction over the Clergy, except in certain criminal proceedings. It took from the Ecclesiasti cal Courts their jurisdiction in matters of tithe, and proposed to transfer it to the Courts of Exchequer. It also proposedto abolish the jurisdiction .of those Courts in respect to church rates, which it made the subjects of appeal to the Courts of Quarter Sessions; and also in respect to those immoral prat. tires, in regard to which the Ecclesiastical Courts claimed ju risdiction, but which it was here proposed to leave to the common law. In matters of defamation their jurisdiction was to be taken away, and provision was also to be made far regu lating the proceedings in sequestrations. .Lord LYNDHURST—My Lords, the Commission which has given rise to the measure propounded to you by the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, was, in fact, formed by the Noble Duke, my Noble Friend, then at the head of his Majesty's Government. With respect to the composition of that Commission, the manner in whic h the Commissioners dis charged their duties, and the report finally made by them, whenever these subjects came under the con‘ideration of either House of Parliament they met with unqualified praise. The report of that Commission was made in the year 11132, the Commission having issued in the year 1830. That report, my Lords, was followed up by a Bill which was introduced into sour Lordships' House, in the year 1833, by my Noble and Learned Friend who then held the Great Seal, whose absence, and toe cause of whose absence I, in common with many others of your Lordships, deeply regret. That Bill was laid upon your table, but it was proceeded in no further. When a change again took place in his Majesty's Government, and my Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tamwort h was in trusted with his Majesty's Counsels, that Right Hon. Gen tleman particUlarly called my attention to the subject, and he had repeated conversations with the presiding Judge of the Court of Arches, and other Judges ; and the result was, that in a short time a measure, corresponding in the ge neral outline, as well as in most of ITS details, with that now introduced by the Noble 4nd Learned Lord on the Woolsack, was framed. Before, however, any further step could be taken in it, another change took place in his Majesty's Government, and the subject has slumbered from that time to the present moment, and I rejoice to think that my Noble and Learned Friend has anticipated my intention of bringing the matter for ward by the introduction of his Bill. I say . I rejoice in it, be cause a measure of this description can only be introduced and carried into due effect with the sanction and support of the Go vernment. I have reason to think, from what has been stated by my Noble and Learned Friend, that our views on this sub ject are nearly the same. I shall give my best attention to the matter, and I shall attend in my place, not to obviate any well founded opposition against the principles or details of the mea sure. As a whole, I approve of it, and I apprehend that there will be very little difference between us. The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on Monday week. Their Lordships then adjourned at a quarter-past 7. HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 12. The SPEAKER took the Chair at four o'clock. BIRMINGHAM AND WARWICK RAILWAY. Lord G. CAVENDISH brought in a Bill for constructing a railway between Birmingham and Warwick, which was read a first time. Mr. A. J. SPIERS brought in a Bill for making a Canal connected with the rivers Clyde and Cart, near Paisley. Read a first time. BLACKWALL RAILWAY. Mr. ALSTON brought in the London and Blaekwa Railway Bill BRIGHTON RAILWAY. Lord G. LENNOX brought in the London to Brighton, by way of Shoreham, Railway Bill, which was read a first time. BIRMINGHAM AND GLOUCESTER RAILWAY. Lord G. SOMERSET brought in the Birtnial,Tham and Gloucester Railway' Bill, and a Bill authorising the making of a Railway from Birmingham to join the Great Western Rail way.—Both read a first time. Lord CASTLEREAGH brought up the Report of the Committee on the Belfast and Armagh Railway Bill. 'Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD brought in a Bill to light the town of Reading with gas, which was read a first time. Mr. BRODIE presented a petition from Gosport, complain ing of the conduct of the East India Company towards Mr. Buckingham, and praying that that Gentleman might have compensation awarded him. SUGAR DUTIES. Mr. EWART gave notice that, on Monday next, ha should present a petition from the merchants of Calcutta, pra)ing for more equal duties on sugar tobacco, rum, and other produce. Lord A. CONYNGHAM presented a petition from Can terbury, in favour of the claims of Mr. Buckingham. SPIRIT LICENCES. Sir J. BECKEET presented a petition from the li censed victuallers of Leeds, complaining of the increased duty on spirit licenses. Hr. BAINES supported the prayer of the petition. Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND also supported the prayer of the petition. He had had a communication with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he was happy to say the Government had paid great attention to the subject, and he had no doubt something would be done. THAMES WATERMEN. Mr. HAWES presented a petition from certainWatermen of the river Thames, which, to a certain extent, he felt called upon to support, as he knew that the petitioners were in a state of great distress, owing to the great increase of steam navigation. The petitioners prayed the House to pass a law to prevent steamers from coming higher up the river than Greenwich. He hoped the House would attend to the prayer of the petition. Mr. G. F. YOUNG had been requested to support the prayer of the petition, and could bear his testimony to the truth of the allegations contained in it. He knew that the petitioners were in great distress in consequence of the improvements in steam navigation, front which the public generally derived the greatest advantages. He could not, however, express his con currence in the proposed mode of relief; but he hoped that when the Committee of the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. P. Thompson) met to take into consideration the subject of the navigation of the river Thames, the condition of the petitioners would meet with attention.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. BARNA RD also supported the prayer of the petition, and expressed a hope that something would be done to relieve the distress of the petitioners. The petition was then laid on the table. NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. - _ Mr. HAWES gave notice that on Monday next'he would present a petition from certain architects, praying that all the plans for the building of the new Houses of Pa►liament, which, had been sent, should be publicly exhibited. CHURCH RATES. _ Mr. WILK S had;petitiotrt;;;s:;,signed only by three individuals, which, however, proved that it was exceedingly important that Government should, without delay, submit to arliatnlnt 30. n phi fie the total abolition of Church rates.—( Hear, hear.) The petition came from Great Mar low, in the county of Buckingham, and the petitioners were all of them Dissenters—one of them was a large paper manufacturer, and the other was the largest farmer in the county, and was assessed to between 3001. and 4001. a year The amount now demanded was 201. They complained that this rate had been made without their knowledge on Saturday last, and that on the same day they were applied to for payment. This church-rate was levied under a special Act of Parliament, and no account had ever been submitted of the manner in which the rates had been laid out in the erection of the church, and though no rate had been imposed for three years, the rate now made on those who were resident in the parish amounted to Is. 4d. in the pound. The application for the rate was made on Satur day last, when the petitioners told the applicant that before paying it they would take the opinion.of counsel, as they con sidered that they ought not, without investigation, be compelled to pay this rate. They were told, however, that they would be allowed no opportunity of doing so, and on Saturday evening they were served with a summons to appear before the Magistrates on Monday. They diretted their solicitor to attend, and he expressed a wish to have the matter postponed till Wednesday, in order in the meantime that they take the opinion of counsel. The magistrates refused to allow Ithis indulgence, and warrants of distress were issued on the Monday ; and in the three houses of the petitioners at this moment there were distress warrants. Under such circum stances the House, he was sure, would see the propriety of re lieving these persons from the payment of church-rates —( Hear, hear, hear)—and that a Commission should issue to enquire into the accounts of the Churchwardens and Trus tees of this Church, in order that they might know if the sums of money which had been raised had been properly ex pended. And that these persons should be at liberty to attend before the Commission. Sir WILLIAM CLAYTON, as one of the Representa tives of Great Marlow, begged to. support the prayer of the petition. lie regretted the harsh treatment to which the pe titioners were subject. \Vhen they considered th a t the inha bitants of the borough paid no less a sum than 1,000/. pe annum to the Dean and Chapter of Gloucester, a n d that when r they applied to them for assistance in building a Church they only received a sum of 30/., it was not to be wondered at that they objected to the payment of Church -Cates. H e trusted the grievance complained of would shortly be remedied. SUMMARY CONVICTIONS. Mr. WA KL E Y said when the Hon. Member for Bright on , last night, moved for a return of summary convictions that bad taken place in the year 1835, he omitted to add, that there should be furnished a statement, showing in how many' instances the evidence on which the convictions rested had been reduced to writing. He should now move for such a return, showing in what cases the evidence had been reduced to writing, and preserved as a part of the public records. Mr. MILLS thought such a return could not be made out. Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND was af raid there existed no means of making out the retur n desire d by the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. WAKLEY said the worthy Baronet misunderstood him. He did not desire the evidence in ev ery ease to be se t forth in the return; what he wished for was, that it should be specified in what cases the evidence was taken down, and those in which it was not. After a few words from Mr. JERVIS and Mr GORING, the question was put and carried. POST-OFFICE REGULATIONS. Mr. WALL ACE seeing one of the Commissione rs o f t h e Post-office in his place, would qs-k two questions: one was if anything had been done by the Commissioners in the way of al tering and improving. the raanagement and constituti on o f t h e Post-office ? The 2nd question he had to put to the Hon. Gen tleman was, if there was any truth in the reports which were in circulation respecting mismanagement in the packet depart ment of that establishment ? Mr. LABOUC HERE was happy to have it in his power to make a statement in rep l y to the q uestions of his Hon. Friend the Member for Greenock; which ha was sure would prove satisfactory to Hear, heal )_and to the House i r n e e g rs ard of tIo the n ry first iri toqutehsetin state as t eo to whether of the t Post Office ffi l ce C i o ia m d m a is d vise(' any alteration in the constitution of that establishment, by placing its management under the control of Commis sioners, lie had the satisfaction to state that the Commissioners had made a decided recommendation to Government to that effect, ' , viz., to abolish the office of Postmaster -Gene ral, and place it in the hands of a' Board of Commissioners, and that the Government only delayed carrying that arrangement into effect, until a further inquiry which was then in progress had been completed.—(Cries of " Hear, heir.") With regard to the second question, he hoped in the course of three weeks to be able to lay on the table of that House a full and accurate report, containing the information sought for by his Hun. Friend; and when the whole case was before the House, they would be able to arrive at a proper decision on the subject. Mr. WALLACE expressed his extreme gratification at the clear and satisfactory answer which had been given to his questions by his Hon. Friend, and he trusted he might be again permitted to trespass on the attention of the House by putting another question, which he deemed of the greatest importance-4 Hear, hear, from Mr. Labouchere)—that ques tion was, whether it is the intention of the Commissioners of Post-Office Enquiry to recommend any change which would put an end to a further outlay on the port and harbour of Portpatrick. Mr. L ABOUCHE RE in reply, said that the Commission ers had recommended a suspension of any further outlay, until the report on that harbour had been made to the House as to the expediency of dispensing with that harbour altogether.— (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Wallace.) MR. BUCKINGHAM'S CI:AIMS. Mr. PEASE presented a petition from Darlington in fa vour of Mr. Buckingham's claims. The Hon. Member also presented some other petitions, the nature of which did not reach the gallery. Mr. BAINES moved for a return of the names of all Jus tices of the Peace, acting for Municipal Corporations, on the 26th December last. HULL AND SELBY RAILWAY. Mr. BETHEL brought in a Bill for making a railway from Hull to Selby, which was read a first time. BONDED CORN. Mr. D. JACKSON presented a petition from Youghal, praying that the House would make no alteration in the law relating to corn in bond. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The House then went into a Committee of Supply, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. Mr. BARING moved some resolutions relative to the taxes on pensions, but the low tone in which the Hon. Member spoke rendered it impossible for us to catch his observations. Mr. HUME had not heard what the Right Hon. Secre tary had stated, but he understood they were about to vote a sum of money along with that which was granted for the half pay of the army by the East India Company. He would take that opportunity of asking the Right Hon. Secretary, what steps had been taken relative to the taxes on pensions, which had not been paid last year, and by which a great loss had been occasioned to the public? Mr. BARING (as we understood) said there certainly had been an error or omission in not passing a vote for taxing pen sions. Mr. HUME considered it extremely strange that individuals receiving pensions, from which deductions ought to be made, should take advantage of a mistake. He hoped the Bill which Ministers intended to introduce would be passed before the next quarter became due. The CHAIRMAN then put the resolution, that two mil lions should be granted to his Majesty, to make good the Supply. Mr. HUME made a few observations, which were answered by Mr. BARING, but which were totally inaudible in the Gallery. Several other resolutions were read by the CHAIRMAN. Mr. HUME submitted whether, upon future occasions, it would not be better to give Members some information as to what the votes of Supply might be before they came into the House—at present they had no information on the subject. The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received PUBLIC COMMITTEES. Mr. BERNAL then moved certain resolutions relative :o the appointment of uommittees. Mr. S. O'BRIEN rose to move an amendment to the first resolution. His amendment was to add to the resolution the following words—" And that in all cases in which 'the subject matter referred to the concerns of the United Kingdom, that at least two out of fifteen of the Members of the Committee should be selected from the Irish Representatives." It would be allowed that there were no Members in that House who were more attentive to their duties than the Irish Representatives, and yet the result of the calculation which he had made was, that out of 194 Members who had been named upon Committees for important public ob jects, only nine Irish Representatives had been appointed. There were many of them subjects of the greatest pos sible interest, in which the Irish Members took as eager an interest as the English Members, and he therefore felt it his duty to bring the subject under the consideration of the House. It should be recollected, That whilst the proportion of the Irish Representatives was to the rest of the, House as one to five, the proportion on Com- mittees was only as one to twenty-one. - Mr. EWA RT was understood to say that , he was sure the disproportion adverted to by the Hon. Member must have arisen from inadvertence. Mr. FINN would suggest to his Noble Friend to withdraw his motion, at the same time he must say that it was quite clear that justice was not done to the Irish Members, and he trusted that in the formation of Committees thev would pay more atten tion in future to the interests of Ireland. Mr. O'BRIEN believed tin.-t, his purpose was fully answered.—(Hear, hear.) He was willing himself to forget that the two countries were separated by the channel, but the only way in which Irishmen could ever consent to such forgetfulness was their feeling themselves in every respect their equals. He took it for granted that the omissions he complained of had arisen from inadvertence; if it had arisen from any contemptuous feeling, he trusted that the Irish Mem bers would know how to meet it. He was willing, under these circumstances, to withdraw the motion. Sir R. INGLIS wished to draw the attention of the Go vernment to this point--there were some Committees on which many Members had been engaged, more or less, last Session ; he thought it desirable that such Members should be re-ap pointed to these Committees. Mr. ROBINSON thought there were many Members of the House who were not brought forward, and who were most anxious to serve. . Lord JOHN RUSSELL made some observations, the im port of which could not be heard in the Gallery. Mr. E. COOPER, as one of the Members of the Agricul tural Committee, assured the Hon. Mimber for Kilkenny of his wish to receive from the Irish Members any suggestion on the subject, and as one of the representatives of that portion of the kingdom, would be ready to' act upon any, having for its object the improvement of tho agricultural classes in that country. Mr. FINN explained. Mr. HUME thought when Hon. Members did not find themselves able to attend the Committees, they should report the fact to the House, in order that others might be named in their places. Mr. HAWES said, that it would be quite impossible for the shorthand writers, in Committees, to take down the names of every Member who asked questions ; and he suggested that some improvement should take place in that respect. Sir ROBERT PEEL was sure that the short-hand writers would at first find some difficulty in takinc , down the names of Membe rs , b ut a little experience would ' shortly remedy the evil. He suggested that the names of Members should be posted on the door of every Committee-room, and it would be well if the Chairman called out the name of each Member putting a question, thereby not diverting the attention of the short-hand writer from taking down what bad been said. Mr. G. F. YOUNG thought that there were some Hon. Gentlemen who had an anxiety to appear in print, and who would on that account, if the names of Members asking ques tions were taken down, put many, in order that they might appear to their constituents to be active in the discharge of their duty. Mr. CUMMING BRUCE, seeing the Hon. Member fur Bridport in his place, begged to ask whether it was his inten tion to move for the re-appointment of the Select Committee which sat last year on the subject of the medical profession 1— (Cries of " 6-der.") The SPEAKER begged to remind the Hon. Member tha the business before the House, as the Order of the Day. DEAN FOREST. The House then went into Committee on the Dean For es Commissioners Bill. Mr. HUME begged to know what was the expense of this Commission, who were the officers employed, what were their salaries, laughter. whether they had any duties to perform Loud laughter.) Mr. R. GORDON made some observations in reply, which we could not catch. We understood him to say that one of the o fficers was a deer-keeper. Mr. HUME—Then I shall submit a motion to do away with the deer. He would also submit a motion for a return of how the deer were disposed of.—(Laughter.) It was right that the House should know whether the deer were distributed amongst the gentlemen in office. Lord JOHN RUSSELL could assure the Hon. Gen tleman that since he had been in office he had received none of the deer ; but he did not mean to say that none had been of fered to him.—( Laughter.) MEDICAL EDUCATION. Mr. CUMMING BRUCE begged to ask the Hon. Member for Bridport, whether it was his intention to revise the Com mittee upon Medical Education of last session ? Or whether he intended to introduce any measure founded upon the evi dence taken before it, for a change in the present system of medical education ? Mr. WARBURTON was most. anxious and interested upon the subject of medical education, and it was his intention to renew the Committee upon it. ORANGE LODGES. Mr. FINN rose, pursuant to the notice which he had given, to propose a resolution relative to Orange Lodges in Ireland. He had a duty to perform, and as he was actuated solely by a desire to promote the peace and happiness of the country to which he belonged, as well as to vindicate the character of the Government. As the duty he had to perform was a pain ful one, he did trust, that as he had hitherto done in discussions both in the Committee and in that House and out of it, he should on the present occasion discharge it with unimpeached firmness, and with courtesy towards those he so strong'•y differed from.—(Cheers.) He implored the House to extend its patient attention towards him. He could assure the House, and he believed that many would concur with him, that the system which it was his object to extinguish in Ireland, had been that baneful one by which Ireland had been misgoverned for the last 40 years. He should, before entering upon the consideration of the questi.in at large, first vindicate his own character and that of the Com mittee of which he bad the honour to be one, against the assertions thrown out by the Grand o..ange Lodge of Ireland. that Lodge consisted of a very powerful body ; he dared to so) that one half of the Protestants of the Established Church of Ireland, of adult age, were Orangemen ; of the yeomanry corps consisting of twenty-seven thousand men, he u7s satisfied that 25,000 at least were Oi-angeinen.—( Hear, hear.) Of the police, amounting to 7,000 or 8,000, there were between 4,000 and 5,000 of the same description, and the number of grand jurors, petit jurors, magistrates, sheriffs, and sub-sheriffs that belonged to that body, no man who was not acquainted with its details could conjecture the extent to which Orangeism prevailed. When he recollected that the principle on which that body was founded was deadly hostility to the great mass of the population of that country—( Loud cries of " No, no," from the Opposition benches). If Hon. Gentle men would bare the kindness to hear him out, he thought he should be able to prove it, if not to their satisfaction, because they laboured wider such a delusion and hallucination, that it was impossible to convince them ; but he should con vince any impartial mind in the empire out of the lodges. The people of Ireland were denounced as their natural enc . . . mies.—( No, no.) They were constituted for the purposes of loyalty and religion, but no Roman Catholic could be a . . C./ • IViemiSer • and although he recanted and calumniated the re ligion of his fathers, that man must be unanimously recom mended before he purged himself sufficiently to be ad mitted. The charge which ha intended to vindicate the Coni- mittee against, was contained in a document in the Evening Mail, and in many journals in this country, and its authenticity had been avowed by the Hon. Member for Cavan. He would show to the House - that the statements in that document were utterly unfounded. (The Hon. Iklember here referred to the document published by the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland.) It was stated in that document that the Committee which had been appointed upon his motion was not one from which im partiality could be expected. When he had the honour of sub mitting his motion for that Committee, he proposed that 13 of them should be Orangemen or Tories, and 14 of the other side, and by choosing the Hon. Member for Lancashire as Chairman the two parties were exactly even. The Hon. and Learned Member then proceeded at some length to show that the Committee had been appointed with a view to a fair and im partial investigation. He would ask the House was that a Committee to be denounced for partiality—for a hatred of the existing Constitution, and an anxiety to separate Ireland from England ? Was that a fair description of the Com mittee ?—( Loud cries of No, no.) Let the House re. collect the s authority upon which this description went forth The document further boasted that the religiOn of the Orange men was that of a majority of the population of the empire. This he would deny. He never heard a tolerant Protestan who did not repudiate the idea of embracing the same reli gious opinions as the Orangemen. —(" Oh," and laughter from the Opposition—" Hear" from part of the Ministerial side.) It was also stated at that meeting that the Committee con sisted of Repealers. Now this charge was equally untrue. There were only three Repealers; himself, the Member for Dublin, and the Member for Tipperary (Mr. Shiel). Mr. Wyse, who was on the Committee, was not a Repealer; in fact, he lost his seat by his not being one. The Committee consisted of only four Catholics, thirteen Orangemen, and nine liberal Protestants. (The Hon. Member enumerated the names of the Committee, descanting on the professed opi nions of each, and took occasion to eulogize the character and conduct of the late Lord Milton and his fancily.) The Hon. Member then proceeded to read, at great length, extracts from the evidence taken before the Committee of last session, with a view of showing that the administration of justice in Ireland was materially impeded by the existence of the Orange Societies. The Hon. Member concluded by moving— " That Orangeism has been productive of the most baneful ef fects upon the character and administration of public justice in Ireland ; that its prevalence in the constabulary and peace preser vation forces and yeomanry corps of that country has led individual members, as well as large bodies of the above descriptiop 'of force, to the gross neglect and violation of the public duty, and to the open, daring, and lawless resistance to the authority of the Magis• tracy, and of the Executive Government on various occasions ; that the systematic and surreptitious introduction of Orangeism into every branch of the military service, into almost every part of the empire, in direct violation of orders issued in 1822 and 1829, by the Commander-in-Chief of his Majesty's Forces, and the absolute power and controul vested by its governing bodies, the Grand Orange Lodge of England and of Ireland, in his Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland, together with the rank, station, influ ence, and numbers of that formidable and secret conspiracy, are well calculated to excite serious apprehensions in all his Majesty's loyal subjects, and imperatively call for the most energetic expres sion on the part of the Representatives of the People of this Empire, to secure the safe, the peaceable, the legal, and righful succession to the Throne of these realms." Mr. C. BULLER supported the motion, and complained that the Magistrates were appointed from party motives, and that the Judges were influenced by Orange prejudices. The Hon. Member, in support of his assertion, quoted the evidence given before the Committee appointed to inquire into the cha racier of Orange Lodges and societies by Lord Gosford and Mr. Sinclair, which he considered confirmatory of what had been advanced by the Hon. Member who had brought forward the subject. Lord J. RUSSELL did not rise for the purpose of dis cussing the terms of the resolution, though if he chose to do so he could find a sufficiency in that respect to object to; but to express his dissent from adopting a resolution which contained so many clauses, involving such weighty charges, and affect ing such important matters, in a House similar to that which he then addressed.—( Hear, hear.) It was quite evident from the state of the House that th 6 opportunity taken by the Hon. Member was not the fitting one, and he believed he could perceive that the temper of the Honourable Members present was not in a disposition to decide the great question involved in the resolution. It was clear that if a decision had been ex pected on that great and important question, there would be e much better attendance of Hon. Members than there was-- ( Hear)—and therefore, he thought that the better way would bolo postpone the consideration of the whole subject to a fu ture period, rather than to take a decision on one half of it one slay, and another half of it another.—( Hear, hear.) N ot seeing any Hon. Member disposed to interpose in defence of Orange Societies, and not wishing to urge it on until all was ready, he should propose that the debate on the question be adjourned.—(Heir, hear.) There were two notices on the same subject on the books ; the one on the 23d of this month, by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, the other by the Hon. and Gallant Member opposite for a Select Committee. H e ( Lord J. Russell) thought it would be better to adjourn the decision until the former day. If the debate were adjourned he would be prepared against it was resumed to state the view entertained by his Majesty's Ministers on the subject; and also his reason for not adopting the course proposed by either Hon. Member. He should likewise be ready to state the reason why, without going any further into the inquiry, the House should at the commencement of the Session express an opinion on the nature and tendency of Orange Societies.— (Hear.) He should do those things in two resolutions, which on that occasion he would submit to the House. He did not, ho .; ever, mean to preclude himself, in taking this course, front assenting to any motion respecting secret societies. He was an enemy to all secret societies—( Hear, hear)—and if by in quiry in a Select Committee, or:by any other means, a mode could be devised for suppressing them effectually, he would willingly adopt it, for he was fully convinced that by suppress ing all secret societies he would be doing a benefit to Ireland, a service to religion, and an act of justice to the kingdom at large.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord concluding by mov ing, as an amendment, that the further consideration of the question be adjourned to Tuesday, the 23d inst. •Mr. MAXWELL said that he was fully prepared to meet all the charges urged against the Orange Society by its ene mies ; and was most anxious to state to the House some facts on the subject, as well as his view of the conduct of individual members of it. He was as close an attendant on it as the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Hume). But as he understood it was the wish of his Majesty's Government not, to protract the discussion at present, he was perfectly ready to waive his own wish as well as his own personal convenience, and accede to the proposition of the Noble Lord. The amendment was agreed to. ORANGE LODGES IN THE ARMY. Mr. HUME said he had a motion of considerable import ance, in conne'tion with the subject of the last resolution, to propose to the House. Originally it was for " A return of the names of Officers not on full pay, or liable to trials by Court Martial, who had been dismissed the army for attending Orange lodges." He had asked the Noble Lord the Secre tary. at War, what orders had been issued from the Horse Guards, respecting Officers who subsequently to the order of the 31st of August, bad been made Orangemen, or had conti. nued to attend Orange lodges ? He had been snswered that the Duke of Cumberland was not on full-pay, and therefore not liable to orders from head-quarters. He would now beg to ask the Noble Lord, if his Majesty had the power of dis missing without a Court Martial, why should that power be withheld in the case of Officers on half-pay, who might have disgraced the army ? When he saw the Secretary at War on the subject he had a list of over 1,000 individuals who had been dismissed from the service without any cause assigned. What answer could be 'made, then, when the highest indivi dual in the land but one disobeyed his Majesty's orders with impunity?—(Hear, hear.) In August last, the ['OUT had called the attention of his Majesty to the subject of Orange Lodges in the army : and, in consequence of that appeal, the order of the 31st of the same month was issued by the Com mander-in- Chief. - The conversation he had with the Secre tary at War had induced him to change the terms of his reso lution, and the question he should now bring beforo the House was, that there be laid upon the table of the House a Return of all the officers of each rank, not liable to trial by court martial, who had -been removed from the army list without reason assigned, together with their names, and the nature of their several respective offences. If that Return were made, it would then be his duty to submit to that House—in case the Duke of Cumberland continued to treat with derision the or der of that House, and to refuse obedience to all orders from head-quarters, which every other officer in the service obeyed —it would then be his duty, he said, to submit to the House, on the principle that disobedience of orders is as inexcusable in the high rank of Field Marshal as in the low one of subaltern, motion to inquire how far the Commander-in-Chief, Lord Hill, had done his duty.—( Hear, hear.) If officers depen dent upon that Act which was annually passed in that House denied its orders, the only appeal left was to the decision and firmness of that House itself. He was prepared to prove that, in the years 1822 and 1829, Lord Hill, as Commander in- Chief, issued orders forbidding Orange Lodges in the army. He would also prove that, as colonel of a regiment, the Duke of Cumberland was cognizant of them, as in that c a p acit y he, as well as the adjutants, was furnished with copies. He would prove that the Duke of Cumberland disobeyed them, and that Lord Hill, in leaving him untouched for that breach of orders, had not done his duty. And 14 W 43 prepitroa to bring the . question to tszue on that point—who was, in reality, the Com mander-in-Chief of these realms. Lord HO W ICK did not so much object to granting the returns moved for by the Hon. Member as to the form ,in which they were required. He was willing to give the Hon. Member every facility for the discussion of his motion on the general subject of Crange Lodges, fixed for the 231, as well as every information in is power, consistent with his duty to the public and to individuals. He should, however, reserve all expression of . his own opinions until that period, save and except to say, that his Majesty had an undoubted and indislu. table right to remove any individuals he chose from his service, without assigning a reason. It was a right which %las rarely exercised, it was true, and only in the worst cases ; but still it existed as inalienable as ever, notwithstanding. The objec- tion he had to the form of the motion arose fri) - m the circum stance of the names of individuals who had been dismissed, aI 1 of them from disgraceful causes, it was to be presumed, being dragged before the public. The dismissal from the Army was in itself a severe, and perhaps a sufficient, punishment. Why, then, should it be aggravated, after the lapse of so Many years, by the exposure of the individuals who had suffered by blazon ing and holding up their names to the eye of the public ? ( Hear, hear.) He objected to the terms and not to the spirit of the motion, and he was prepared to accede to it if the num ber of Officers alone was required. Colonel VERNE R said that he was one of those who were on the half-pay list ; and that this recompense had been granted him by his Majesty on account of his services, as well as permission to retain his rank. He had done nothing un - worthy of art Officer or a Gentleman, and he would think it hard that he should be struck off the list merely for belonging to a Society, at the head of which were two of his Majesty's brothers.—( Hear. ) Mr. SCAR LETT wished to know whether the Hort.,Men - - ber for Middlesex desired to abridge personal liberty so far as to prevent gentlemen on half-pay doing that which no law de dared illegal ?—( Hear.) In defiance of all law and reason, to commence a bitter persecution of these gentlemen for join ing a society, was neither fair, just, nor honourable.—( Hear.) Colonel THOMPSON said his own desire would be to establish Reform societies in every regiment, to discuss various subjects connected with the well-being of the soldier—corporal punishment, for instance—but he had always been restrained by the point of honour which he had understood to exist, that it was neither wise nor prudent to introduce politics in the army. Now, what he wished to know was, whether that point of honour was to be abrogated, and when ?—( Hear.) If the power of the Crown were to be exercised solely against those who introduced Reform societies into the army, and not against those who introduced Orange lodges, he thought it was o n ly fair that the barrier should be done away with on one side as well as on the other. But perhaps it was the difference of . rank in the individual which caused the criminality, and what was wrong in a subaltern was right in a superior officer. Yet he could riot credit that either, ?or the Hon. Member opposite had complained of ill treatment. It was desirable that it should. be explained clearly to the army, whether what was wrong in. a Colonel was right in a Field Marshal. Lord HO WICK explained.—lf the Hon. and Gtlant Member had understood him to say that officers on half-pay would be allowed to establish societies in the army he had mis taken his meaning. What he said was, that officers on half pay were looked upon as civilians in all cases, e:cept those which were positively prohibited by orders from Lead-quarters or the standing regulations of the army. The order of the Commander-in-Chief, of the 31st of August last, was posi tive ; and, therefore, it would be irregular, and an act of diso bedience, in any officer, even on half-pay, to infringe on its prescription. To establish societies in the army, after that order had been issued would be an offence in an officer of any rank whatever, even the highest. Mr. SCARLETT made one or two observations, which were inaudible in the gallery. Mr. HUME said he felt the force of the Noble Lord's ob jection in one point, but differed with him totally in his oppo sition to the other. The Noble Lord had said that it would. be cruel to expose the names of parties dismissed from the army for misconduct. He (Mr. Hume) thought otherwise, and he looked upon it as overstrained and unnecessary deli cacy-towards them. Their names, as well as their offences should be made public in his opinion, if it were only as an example to deter others from following the same course. The Honourable and Learned Member opposite had asked him whether he wished to abridge personal liberty ? The history of his whole life answered the question, he hoped, satisfactorily. He wished to abridge no liberty but that of doing wrong. He begged to call the attention of the House to the last two sentences of the Honourable and Gallant Mem ber who had spoken on the other side, " That it would be cruel to strike him off the half-pay list for belonging to a so ciety at the head of which were two of his Majesty's brothers," and to concur with him in that opinion, unless the greater evil could be met as well as the lesser ; and higher offenders reached as well as the lower. In deference, however, to the opinion of the Noble Lord, he should shape his motion so as to meet his concurrence. The Honourable Member then moved for—" A Return of the number of Officers, of all ranks, not being on full pay, who have been struck off the Army List without their own consent since the year 1815." Return ordered. RAILROADS IN THE METROPOLIS. Mr. D. W. HARVEY rose to call the attention of the House and the Government to a subject of very great impor tance to the community—the formation of railroads. No ob ject of a domestic nature had so largely occupied. the public mind for a considerable period, as the subject of railroads ; and a greater number of individuals, with a larger amount of capital, were involved in them, than in any single specula tion which had been started for a long while past. It was for these reasons that he claimed the attention of the House. He should take it for granted that any plan which had the effect of lessening the labour, and economising the time ° r Honourable Members, w hil e , at t h e same time, it facili tated the public business, would be welcome, and therefore, he was encouraged to believe that as the one he was now about to propose would effect these objects, it would be at tended to. When the number of Bills before Committees of that House were considered, no one could say that there was not enough business then to occopy them to the last hour of the Session. It was to curtail that business without injury to its dispatch that he brought forward his motion. It was for a Select Committee, to which should be referred every Railway Bill the road of which terminated within seven miles of the metropolis. The object of the motion was obvious. It was too much labour for any Committee to undertake more than his motion pointed out, and it also appeared to him unneces sary, as railroads from one provincial town to another were under the guardianship of parties who had a pecuniary interest in them, and were originated only where they were likely to be useful. But it was quite otherwise with the railroads pro jected in London. The greater part of these projects had their origin in no sentiment of public utility, but were the speculation of parties who had a redundant capital, of active habits, and no means of employing either. If the lists of shareholders were to be analyzed, it would be found that the great majority of the parties subscribing had not the remotest connection with the towns or country through which the rail roads were proposed to run, and no interest whatever beyond the mere pecuniary one of employment, and perhaps profitable investment, of superfluous capital. It was therefore the duty of the Legislature to watch over the interests of the public, and to take care that no portion of his Majesty's sub jects should be injured by the unwise, the indiscreet, or the interested speculatiobs of individuals. The case he wished to put would be strongly illustrated if Hon. Members only bore in mind a few out of the many projects on foot to connect the metropolis by the means of railroads with the distant parts of the country. He did not intend to offer any opinion, favour able or otherwise, of any particular project, but simply to call the attention of that House to some of the many plans in pro gress. For instance, there were three proposals for as many distinct lines of railroad from the eastern part of London to Norwich. Each of these lines passed over different portions of the country. Now, whatever might be the profit on one line of railroad between these two cities, it was incontestable that three would never pay ; therefore two of the three, sup posing one profitable, would be a dead loss, and ruinous not alone to the proprietors, but those parts of the country through which they passed. It would divert the current of trade to the successful line, and miserably impoverish those places con tiguous to its two unsuccessful competitors. It would also destroy the high roads, which in a short time would become pastures. But, supposing these three lines were successful, he would submit to the House whether it would be right to give them three distinct ter m i nat i ons i n t h e h eart o f t h e metropo li s .. If they were to have that power the effect it would produce would be the desoletion of whole districts—the depo pulation of entire sections—the destruction of innumerable streets, and all the trade and business they contained, together with the interest of the numberless individuals necessarily in volved in their existence as they were before these railroads had passed in that direction. If his resolution were adopted he should propose further that a space within a reasonable dis tance of the metropolis should be fixed upon as the common termination of all railroads converging to that great centre, and that on no account should they be permitted to come nearer. Should some such mode not be adopted, no standard of value would be sufficient to measure the immense loss of property likely to ensue to individuals. It was obligatory on the Government of a country to protect its property as much as to protect its peace. Property of a peculiar nature W l ' s threatened with danger by the multiplication of railroads the present was the time to stand forward and protect it. Net only were these railroads projected from London to every earner of the country, but even from one part of London to the other. So that when a traveller on the Birmingham rail road would have arrived at the termination of that line, which was to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of Euston-square , he would be taken up then on another railroad, and carried into Snow-hill, if the House permitted the project o f the latter line to be proceeded with. The next railroad, be presumed, would be to the House of Commons—(hear , hear, hear, and laughter)—and, perhaps, the one a ft e r to Blackfriarsl Bridge ; until at lest there would not be a single street left in London. If change were necessary, let there be change ; but, in his opinion, utility should always be the guide followed in changes of every description, and not speculative spirit, which often led individuals to ruin not aloof ) themselves but their neighbours. It might bo urged a gainst his motion that a tribunal already existed to try the merits o f cases similar to those included in it, and that, therefore, iS was unnecessary. But to this he would reply, that althoug h Committees of the House of Commons were very much im proved in such matters of late, they were not sufficiently so to meet the evils likely to arise &pm an excessive indulgence ' n unwise speculations of the nature adverted to in his observe; tions. The numbers composing them were too large, th_ rooms in which th e y were he l d too sma ll , the attendance tc' crowded and confused, and the motives of many Hon. Men;; bers too ques ti ona bl e, through pr i vate or public prejudice I. favour of one li no or i n o pp os iti on t o anot h er , to ren der '' 0)111444Po of the House of Commons, upon subjects of t h at nature, the most correct or impartial t r ib una l. Th e conse_ _ quence of thi s combivatiett Wlfaveurable circumstances,