The Sun. — London, England, 1836-02-19 00:00:00

lief officer min ht be held responsible for all appointments. The appoiritmein to the police force he tonsidered before ail other s ought to be free from all party animosity.—(Che. , rs from both sides of the House.) He thought that tht Datro tag° which might accrue from this Bill ?ought to be, more than any other, particularly as the moth" was in a perpetual state of political strife, removed from the undue influontt of the Ministers of the Crown. The same oty-srem that prevailed in the metropolis should be adopted ; the Go vernment should appoint the Inspector, and the Inspector Should appoint the officers, se that no opportunity siteuld be afforded for the unfair exercise of patreange.—( Hear. ) Heiva s not unfri en dly to t h e pr i nciple of the Bill, always sup- Posing that the principal power, namely, that of appointing the chief officer, which would be transferred to the Lord Lieutenant, would not be abused. But something arose out of the principles of this Bill of a nature more important than at first appeared, and which might be well applied to matters independent of that Bill. It was admitted that this Bill was necessary for Ireland, and it was intended that it should com prise the entire country. In England it was ilifferent. There was a Metropolitan Police Bill in England on the same prin ciple as the proposed Constabulary I;orce Bill in Ir e l an d, b ut in the o ne case i t was limited to the metropolis, and in the other extended all over the country. The different circum stances of the country he was well aware demanded this. But suppose that in the Speech from the Throne his Majesty had recommended th.e attention of Parliament to the administration th °1 Justice in I re l an d, an d they had been advised to organise e constal,ulary force for that country on the same plan as the metropeAtan police in England, leaving the provincial magis traeT to be appointed by the Crown. It might be right in the ore instance to leave the appointment of hundreds of Magis (lsles to the power of the Secretary of State. There might be many reasons why the system prevailing in one country 'should not be adopted in the other. More particularly it might be alleged that religious animosities existed in the one country Which did not exist in the other, which alone might render it snore beneficial that the appointment should be in the power of the Crown rather than under the influence of local autho- Mies, however respectable those authorities might be--( Hear), he at) So that, however desirous he might be to apply the same principles to Ireland as those which regulated Eng land, he supposed it would be admitted on all hands that it would be most impolitic to do so. He agreed with the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and with him he said, be ware hew you entrust local authorities with irresponsible Power, tiubiect to all the influence of village prejudices._ (Cheers.) " If the system of police adopted was goo d f or t h e c ountry, it might be said why was it not good for the town ? bifferent circumstances required different treatment, and he, therefore, said now, as he said before, without pledging him self to similar measures for Ireland as those that had been ob tained for England, he might pursue a course of impartial Justice. Such was the reasoning that influenced him in pro- Ansirig anamendmcnt to the King's Speech at the commence ment of the Session, and in pursuing the course he did te had been supported by a powerful minority, who thr;ught with Lim that while they were ready to concede impartial justice to Ireland , they did not wish to be fettered by a pledge that they should l eg i s l ate f or otie part of the empire in the same way a s they did for another, without rthrence to circumstances of al together a different character, and demanding different lcgis lation Cheers.) Mr. GRATTAN complained that year after year, and Century after centdry, Ireland bad been ruled by, and appoint- Ments made trader, a party spirit. Colonel PERCEVAL inquired of the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland whether it was the intention of the Go vernment to provide the inspectors of police in Ireland with . 411 3' retiring allowances. He had in view more particularly I L l .Putting that question Major Warburton, Sir John Harvey, Frederick Stovin, and Major Miller, of the Artillery. Lord MORPETH cou ld not g i ve a precise answer on the s ubject; but it was under the consideration of the Government. Mr. O'LOGHLIN said that with regard to the mention that had been made of the appointment of 84 solicitors to be the officers for conducting prosecutions in Ireland, he begged to inform the House that be had been credibly informed t hat there were but 24 in fact nominated, and out of that number eight or nine were Pr:Aestants, and th e rema i n d er h a d been appointed on the reer.sturnendation of Protestant Gentle men and Barristers. Hear, bear.) The religion of the Parties had not been, taken into consideration, nor was the °i nce. as appeared generally to be supposed, one of very great ~"101ument. rne lee received upon each case of prosecution `_‘',as only two guineas, and many Gentlemen during the year ultl not derive more than ten guineas from the o ffi ce. He had Ite!,"(1 let,ers from some th a t h a d b een nom i nate d d ec li n i ng " I lty, upon the groun d t h at i t was more pro fi ta b le to be empAl loy•ed for the rioters.—( A laugh.) • LEFRO Y believed that the Bill would contribute to th e peace and tranquillity of Ireland. CO- VERNER (as we understood) informed the House that the constabulary force of the smallest province in Ireland exceeded that of Ulster, one of te last, by two or hree hundred men that the same force h in one rge of the southern t pro v- i nces exceeded that of all Ulster and Leinster—and that in ° lle southern county there was nearly an equal number to that of Ulster. Mr. H. GRATTAN said a few words, which were in audible. Mr. FINN defended the conduct of Sir Frederick Stovin, and regretted that he was not provided for as the others of the inspectors. Mr. SHAW, in reference to the statement by the Attorney- General for Ireland, that the appointments of Crown prose cutors were not, as the newspapers had given them to under stand, exclusively Catholic,should beg to say that, in alluding sr them as be did, 'ne'oad done so on the authority .. of a Gen had -e', r • ° u nimeeached honour and integrity in Ireland, who writt 14,, b en to him to that effect. th e "ARtION was glad the present measure had met with coulePe'arrence of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, ,but he the t "p ili q help thinking that it would have been consistent of sns -sight HOD. Gentleman if he had originally adopted the `" i tteiple in his own Bill on the subject in 1814. „..4r• ROCHE supported the motion. Avlr. LEFROY wished to know whether it was the inter'. ga of the Government, :after passing the Bill before the O use, to cancel the appointment of officers at present holding emnraissions in the constabulary force ? Lord MORPETH said the commissions held by those Individuals would, of course, be cancelled; but they would t it her receiv e re - appo i ntments or the remuneration for the ser ices t o which they were entitled.—( Hear.) Before the q u estion was put t o th e H ouse he would observe that, i u sving seen i t stated that this Bill would make the police in dependent of the Magistracy, he was bound to say that it s ^csld do no such thing • but that in all respects sties- were to it Lo the same as under the original appointments. The Noble Ora expressed his gratitude to the Right Hon. Baronet for „" e support he had givkri the measure both at" the present and t i iCiation. r Sir R. PEEL said that perhaps it would be more coo inient for him to 'refer them to the observations of the °u• Member for Waterford respecting his conduct in t 4 14, t h an to wait for the second reading, when the prin of the m easure wou ld come ' to b e d i scussed. The. i ti - n• Member h a d charged him with incon s isten c y in support- Pleasu re now which he had not meted before. Nov, t,Pl3s,sing that accusation were correct, and thatll'c (Sir R. s P'-l) took a course in 1814 different from that which ho took n et l' i resent on the same subject, was tbilisleo preclude him from b e h l t according to his conviction, and doing that which he s e ved to be right? If he remembered right at the distance ita se ° d l aany years . as had . elapsed since 1814, the Bill he then ueed was in principle , s -ctly similar to that of the No- Lord isord, for it vested the appoinstnettezcisthe eonsta epiaD' force in the hands o the Lord Lie s urenailt alone, in his the H° th e hest principle which could be adopted. If r "enourable Gentleman had only, taken the tronble . of °ler • , i r mg to the Act before he had charged him with in - a, he would have found that it was precisely It, : D e (Si; R. Peel) had stated—(l—and, as he (Sir desi n el) remembered, the constables appointed under it were di. Oated by the opprobrious (or appropriate we could not -I,:iuguish which) name of " Peelers."—( Laughter.) ( A (e r P en th e Opposition benches—" Orange Peelers.")— " p les , " Oh.") As they were designated by the . name O ler a " ---( Laughter) —it confirmed his recollection, and L: 4 '.(l not surely have the effect of effacing that of . the Hon. rnber, that they owed their appointment to him and the Lieutenant. e4 vn was given to bring in the Biil. lq r rs B RECORD COMMISSION. ap t) ;* C. ULLER brought forw ar d hi s mo ti on f or th e ai t e' ut ment of a S e l ect C omm i ttee on the Record Commis atm- The lion. M em b er sa id t h at i t wou l d b e suff i c i ent to into° t to th e H ouse, for the purpose of obtaining an inquiry l ast I " s ubject, that the Record Commission had had for the 'l,oo,ieven or e i g h t years an annual grant of 6,0001. or h ad ; so that, though the sum was apparently small, they teone already .y expended upwards of 40,0001. of the public eost4ei' Furthermore, that the Irish Record Commission,. with with it, cost about the same ; and that, not sans " with tl the ts,n th at, Record Commission was at present more St oi , 20,000/. in debt. After that statement he thought; the tre;se,would think worth while to inquire how all that w it a nail been expended.—( Hear.) Part of it, he believed, tln tipmevoted to publishing in the various languages of Europe sf t i;"unt of the nature of the Commission, and a full detail . hi s e uanics and titles of the Commissioners. He held . in the nand a Portuguese pamphlet on the subject, in which --s ti mes of the Commissioners were most romantically given H o : • i, l !)ulat in the purest Portuguese.—(Laughter.) The astliesateMber then read some Portuguese translations . of the by I V of the Commissioners, amidst much merriment, caused brie, met amorphoses fr om E ng li s h i nto that language. Th e see obje c t o f the Commission should be the care of the ) Rm.—their preservation an d t h e transcr i pt i on o f suc h as , feutl`rceme nearly defaced by time ' or acc id en t. Th e f au lt lie ,44in with the C omm i ssion—for he made no personal charges ti ro " the Commissioners was that these objects were en ,,Y, or almost wholly neglected. With regard to the care ,'_eisnee records, all he would say was that at present they were iherved—.he could scarcely say kept —in different parts of t} t l ' : ‘, ) ,% 7 n, in Somerset House, the Rolls' Chapel, and in ie ws• In the former place they were kept in long, Ish_mdamp vaults, where a ray of light never entered, and & tire was only occasionally kindlsd. Indeed, the s f i .e Pr was often afraid to touch them for fear he t h ° aui get the rheumatism in his h and. —(Laughter.) In to a Court they were as badly off, for they were placed the bin Court on shelves that a ladder must be obtained to reach u , l ll , and then there was the chance of falling from the top terolt. the roll over the adventurous individual who made the ex nent. No very pleasant predicament.—( A laugh.) But el .. the Mews they were nurse off of all. There they were sa s!sed in sacks, and measured by bushels. There were 650 u.:17, containing eight bushels each ; so that if a record were clf th tng ' a person would have to wade through eight bushels seal th e m' a before he found that of which he was in Was e ,°• -( Lughter.) One of the objects of the Commission I. ° build an office for their preservation ; and be had seen - • a vary fair esticnate *sr 2000/. ; but it had never been built. Ti_. expee'S'e of preparing the vaults under the Pipe yilikl l ifilounted to 16,000/., and the remove' of tbb records at Westminster through these 11)i11'S:eons cost 12,0001. moree so that 25,0001. of tri6 public money was -thus expended; and ne pfibanent good derived from it'. Anou g h his been %plint in these temporary prelirile s i t ;o Gild a good Re cord Office. The . Tibet i‘atils'ohant object of th e C omm i ss i oners was the sefety of the records. In 1732 it was gravely re effifled to the House that a brewhouse and Weehhoese Its Kb neighbourhood of the Record depeeiter.y at WettitilitArgreatly endangered the safety ty these doCtiniCet?.:. 'Phese then be longed to the bean and t frapt of the Cathedral. In 1819 a thisiler report *an made, and the same ground of complaint then existed% Two expeditions were Rent eta of that House, and the Right Hon. Baronet tpposite was a Member of one of these, but they &dined interfering with the pronarty and privilege of the bean and Chapter; so thet the nuisance con= filmed Unabated, a very strong pent of the power and perti nacity of the Church its this country.—( Laughter.) He had heard that the bushels made admirable rat-traps, and that on one occasion the skeleton of a cat had been found amongst them. He had lately heard that the embezzlement of records had been carried on to a serious extent, and that at the sale of a deceased virtuoso a lot of this kind fetched 1004 They were also to be - found, as matters of course, in curiosity.sheps through the city. The Commissioners %vete especially ex pected to report on the subject of fees, a matter of great im port, which still lay quite neglected, though Sir Harris Nicho las had, in his valuable work, exposed the enormity of the pre vailing practice. It appeared that one wishing to look at a single record must pay 16s. Bd, ; if a transcript were taken additional fees were required —if a copy, higher still, A general search cost five guineas, and in the Roll's Chapel ten guineas. There they would not copy a part of a document-- all or none must be taken for the applicant. A person wanted a few lines of a particular instrument transcribed, and applied to be permitted to copy them. He was told be must, to obtain them, order an office copy of the entire record, the expense of which would be 140 guineas, and this abuse was yet unreformed. Again, if a document was required in a Court of Law, a gui nea per day was charged for bringing it from the Tower; if ten records %sere required at once, ten guineas were charged, and so on. The effect of this might be estimated from the fact, that in a single case, instituted to try the right to a Ba rony in Stafford, that lasted some days in a Court of Law, the charge was eighty guineas..—(lleer, hear.) The subject of' the preservation of the records seemed to be entirely neglected in the eagerness of the Commissioners to print certain costly documents, instead of which the public wanted to see a good arrangement adopted, Et good index made, and easy access af forded to learned men, and all engaged in the publication of ancient works. The Hon. Member called attention to several expense ve private works reprinted by the Commissioners out of tie public funds, amongst which were 314 copies of extracts from " Doomsday Book," at 1/. each, and 3001. to Sir Henry Ellis for superintendence ; Mr. Cooper's account of the " Ancient and Valuable Records of Great Britain ;" " Chan cery Proceedings in the Reign of Elizabeth ;" and " Rhymer's Fcedera." In the items of expense of the Commission of Irish Records, they were surprised to see a charge for the collection of ancient and valuable works in England by Mr. Rowley Lascelles. It appeared, on applying to that gentleman for an explanation, he had (on a quarrel amongst the Irish Commissioners) been deputed to select at this side of the water, and certainly had brought together, some "ancient and valuable records," amongst which collection appeared a pamphlet of Mr. Croker's on the state of Ireland, and Mr. Thomas Moore's " Captain Rock."—( Hear.) He thought the Commissioners had rather gone out of their way in send ing a deputation to Belgium, to request the copy of a docu ment which was itself a copy of an original record existing in the Tower of London—(Hear)--and could not understand how they could find occupation for similar embassies in Ger many, Portugal, Prussia, Italy, &c., except to furnish a justi. fication for expending four thousand pounds per annum in sa laries.—( Hear.) He decidedly objected to the constitution of the Commission. Mr. WYNN defended the Commissioners f...., - etublica. tions alluded to, which bad, under the sanction..` _ ament, been distributed to the Members of both Ho' ." 1 `..: - e was himself a Member of the Commission, and he ' -. e©,"that the Commissioners had frequently laid before Peisiletnent their opinion of the necessity of building a new ,ltt4prd Office. They had net authority t o b u ild or to remove tcords any where. The Commission, he believed, was fiM*ggested many years ago by Lord Bexley, but not carried iate effect fully until a much more recent period, under the present Com missioners. Without at all including himself, he believed there were men upon the Commission whose names vverc - fi sufficient guarantee for adopting the best means to accomplish the ob ject for which they had been appointed. Si r J ames . Mackin tosh, Mr. Hallam, and Mr. Allen, were on the Commission, and the late Earl Spencer and Mr. Dundas, the Lord Regis ter of Scotland, were constant attendants at the meetings of the Commissioners. Mr. JERVIS said, the heavy fees demanded for inspecting those records, were a grievous injustice and oppression on the public. He could name one striking instance of this which came under his own observation at the last assizes at:„Chester. On a trial which involved a disputed claim to pro inspect erty, it was . 1 necessary to six sides only of a grant of .',. en Eliza beth, and in order to do this the parties were compe led to take a copy of 56 sides of folio parchment, containing:totally irre levant matter. Sir R. INGLIS said that it was rather strange that the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Buller) should take so much pains to find fault with a Commission appointed by the present Government, which he had so' strenuously supported. He be lieved that he himself (Sir It. Inglis) was the only Tory on the Commission. The preseet Speaker was at the head of it, and . the Coinniission, he believed,, originated with Lord Brougham. As to removing' the Record -, e had been de cided by the authority of one of the Judges- . e attended on ... the Commission at th e Sp ea k er ' s hoe.% e t s .- ; '‘' • , not com petent to the Commissi oners t o remove theteree'i a t, all Act_ of Parliament.' Mr. HUM-E:suggeet e d th a t, as , 'the old efeftttelsfeseees were now selling off at the Tower, which would' leave pl of room there, the records ought to be removed' - there - aes.t.* ;best and safest place for their preservation. - . ~ . , ) - s Mr. PRINGLE trusted the motion elouldslieeeet elect Of increasing the energy and activity of the .Ott ee_ners. ~ After a few words from Mr. Wynn, Lorl;l*3 104444-. Baynes, and Mre Buller,.the motion was iefreesile ' Committee appointed. ' . ss-se e - S ' . DIVISIONS OF THE HOU: . -- _. • Mr: WARD rose to bring forward liii";:'' e -4 .1 ......144t1\ - the male of taking the di v i s i ons o f tile flot4q. " ''e: - AtM' to interfere between the House am' ...'.. er tion that was to come before them. at ..., .'.,; the Muse and the int eres t o f th e i r ,nie:Ti-s in his-motion. The House, on a came to the conclusion that it was an authentic record of their proem had long entirely given up the old there was no man, he believed, vial. called. They nowe considered them , tribunal than it was,the custom to A majority might be" the triumph , must ultiniately .pronounce their o policy of Any triuniph in that Honk. source threttgb:rrhich.their precceell was dent that there should lie tlie-voteriS tk e House, and. of the A Cnisuretteraivas appointed Visi subject, with the.conseet of the Ri g Peel) then at' the head of the'G , the present Government that the C, report, and the principle they red which was the double lobby principle. ... Exchequer said lie would propose a vote kr ‘ th . e, erection of a second lobby. It was now er e c t e d, a nd nothing remained but to sanction the resolutions which it was , ,hisintention to pre-' pose. The first resolution was that agreed to last session, that upon every division, the House be cleared, and dna the Mem bers do separate into two lobbies. The second resolution was,, that there be four tellers, two stationed at the door of each lobby, and four clerks to receive from the tellers the votes of the Members. That the votes thus received be brought up to the table and separated into alphabetical order. lie saw a tabular list which he believed had been prepared by the Speaker that would be a great convenience, and might prevent any mistakes that might possibly arise from their being a num ber of Members of the same name. It seemed to him that this plan was simple and feasible enough, and he had no doubt that with someindustry and experience it would work well. The present system did not work well.' It gave rise to numerous errors. As a proof of this he need only refer to a division of last night, in which, as given in the newspapers, there were ire a majority of 179 not less than 56 errors, and the name of. one Hon. Member given as having voted both ways, and the names of two or three Scotch Members who had only that day arrived in town were omitted altogether. He would mention one case of peculiar hardship. An Hon. and Gallant, Friend of his, who was not now in the House, was charged on the hustings with voting in support of the system of im pressment (as we understood), though he had uniformly voted against it. No less than eleven lists of the division were pro duced against him with his name on the list where it ought not to have been. It was probable that the whole of these lists were copied from some one paper in which the mistake origi nated. Now, let the House consider for a moment to what inconveniences a candidate must have been placeddinder such circumstances. It would be easy in future to presiAt such in conveniences, by having .every morning, after a division had taken place, an authenticated list of the votes published. He should not trespass further on the attention of the House, but submit the resolutions. , . lye" to The question being put, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was not aware, until he came down to the House at the opening of the session, that a new lobby had been built. The strongest argument in sup port of the motion was, that the second lobby was already pre pared. He must confess he did not feel quite certain that the plan now proposed would greatly lessen the inconveniences complained of. There were occasions upon which it might increase very much the loss of time. This occurred in one of the divisions of last night, where a large majority went out, while only the small number of thirty-five remained in. He admitted the importance of having correct lists of the divi sions, but, before finally deciding upon any plan, they should ascertain by trial whether or not it was likely to work well. It. must be inconvenient for Hon. Members to be under the necessity of correcting errors in the, lists as now published, but would this plan completely prevent similar errors from getting into the journals of the House ? Gentlemen when they saw their names on the journals in the lists where they ought not to be, would naturally complain to the House of mistake, and apply for the leave of the House for the correction of it. The time of the House would thus be taken up, and the inconve nience to Members would perhaps be as great as it was now. As, however, the lobby was built, be - was desirous to concur in the motion. Sir R. PEEL said the plan proposed by the Hon, Gentle- t - the 1-lo ':77;:jle: irtT sorfy soi id the. .-, : • i , pontint ques- pr . But .. :i'4iiven,iellto3l4ritto it coni4o,, 'Arorei., ',/,J h ' L mottol.l. 4 6lait'' p , "'CI inipoi“-ith - ,-‘-. ' .:0- , trt D din g , Bia: i tv. --- , po 1 priiiferti , ls' ,or;io.,iiiit,4o,l,l co. . woula , jiopi .. - ' , ltallie.46, te, mselves,iieeCtitt*Vtlio (1 look.di fi) in. fviptt ittn4s. do of a p ral . tuifiiltp, pilblie Fil opinion 3n j - . Wee and t) - )( e• ldC jtli Of/4_ l (A o ustthl pro ring.-..otitlitliitYpity; he lar e so Oi e,. a1..440110'-rrcBfrd of ia r mimes of t'*-who voted. scr >t ym- eto lo iro , :hito thi, wa ig-ht lion.* net (:Sir ft. of i'roverntnent? t Oas,tinder tin] :',oinrnittei ,' - Ffiredi - their tits ecornmendetittftaq.. ' adopted (II e.• The . Chstritieilor of the ,ot SUN, LONDON, FRiDAV, FEBitUAltit 16, 18:36. nianjnig,lit t i?e, as .an pxperimentZ, and, should ER: I rtOn'l. iiietiej, the House would be at liberty to dis. pose of it as:they , v i rsect, There were Aome parts of the plan .fiu . jpnpy jip s 4o . stiind: . Oy l oul.l it be neces sary tinit tho etei4ki tiitehllane the whole iiigut, when, perhaps, there would not be the least occasion for them? For instance, in the present Session, there were not less than nine. or ten days on, which no division took place. A division thigiit ditife than two Mem tierg.rt!mained in the House; . Were tie four Clerks to wait for contingencies of this kind.; hi additinit to their other labours, and that - , too; ? lllueli time would be lost by Members leaVirig the House to go itito, the lobbi es , in conseqUence of the sinallnesi of the doors.. There ought to. be some antlidrity Vested With discretion o itiodifying the detail's autth a plan. there some nights on which no divi sion could be expected. Upon occasions of this kind were the clerks to be kept in attendance, on Wednesdays, for instance ? Mr. OROTE hoped an opportunity would be afforded of giving the plan a fair trial. With respect to the smallness of the doors, that inconvenience might be easily removed, and four clerks might be appointed solely for the purpose of this plan. A vote of the House would be necessary for that purpose. Whether the numbers on a division were large or small, the business ought to go on in the same way. Sir R. INGLIS said a plan of this kind was first Wei in January, 1834, and there was a mistake in the very first di vision. Mr. O'CONNELL said the plans were not the same. Upon the occasion alluded to there nas only one error, and there were no clerks then. He was often surprised at the in.. convenient way in which the divisions formerly took place. It occasioned great loss of time. Upon one occasion he recol lected 319 Members going out, while only eleven remained in the House. Would it not have been much more convenient if the eleven went forth ? Against any inconvenience that might arise from this plan they would have this great convenience, that constituents would know how their Representatives voted, and whether they were present. Dr. BOWRING considered this plan a great improvement on that of last Session. It was, however, tried under very un favourable circumstances, for there were no clerks. The Right Hon. Baronet alluded to the inconvenience of four clerks being obliged to be in attendance all night. The Members of that House, as tellers, would be put to the like inconvenience. The plan now proposed would not produce one tenth of the errors that took place under the other plans. Mr. E WART approved of the plan. There might be errors at first, but accuracy would be ultimately attained, and the sys tem would become an excellent one. Colonel THOMPSON said much time might be saved by having three doors leading from each side of the House into the lobbies. Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said it was vain to expect any thing like a perfect system under which errors would not occur. These errors could not lead to any serious inconve nience. It was pretty generally known from experience, and from a knowledge of their principles, how Hon. Members would vote upon most questions. There was a general con viction throughout the country that the votes now given by the Representatives of the people were correct, and in con formity to the principles they professed. There were mis takes under the present plan. If they adopted a new one let it be consistent with common sense, and afford a fair prospect of improvement. Mr. HUME was really surprised at what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet, as he was the last person from whom he should have expected opposition or objection to any plan for ensuring the publication to the constituencies of the votes of Hon. Members of that House.—( Hear.) Sir J. HOBHOUSE explained. He trusted he could ap peal to the recollection of the House that the character which he had there would certainly contradict the supposition of the Hon. Member for Middlesex. What he ( Sir J. Hobhouse) meant was that mistakes were seldom made in the accounts of the votes given by Hon. Members in that House, and that it was pretty generally kno w n, an d th a t, t oo , w ith accuracy, what was the general character of the votes. Mr. HUME was happy to find that he had misunderstood the Right Hon.. Baronet. The Right Hon. Baronet, how ever, had observed that a perfect system could not be expected. Now he (Mr. Hume) thought that the plan proposed was certainly more near perfection than that which was now pur sued, and that it was not very probable that mistakes could arise if the suggestions made in the plan were generally car ried into effect. The resolutions were then put from the Chair, and agreed to. RUSSIA. Lord D. STUART rose to postpone the motion of which he had given notice with respect to certain papers relating to the affairs of Russia until to-morrow (this day), on which day he had been informed by his Majesty's Ministers no business of paramount importance was likely to be brought before the House. He would now state for what papers he should move; they would be these :—The treaty of the Bth of July, 1833, commonly called the treaty of Unkiar Skelessi ; the treaty of St. Petersburgh of the 29th of January, 1834 • any commu nications which have passed between the British Government and that of Russia on the subject of those treaties ; and any correspondence between those Governments on the subject of the remonstrances of Great Britain to Russia with respect to Poland. THE LAY ASSOCIATION.—(IRELAND.) Mr. SHE IL rose pursuant to notice, to move for a return of the number of Bills filed for the recovery of tithes in Ire land from the Ist of August, 1835, to the Ist of January, 1836 ; of all processes issued out of his Majesty's Court. of .Exchequer ,in Ireland, in the ease of Knox .v. Goven and others, and of all orders and affidavits made in such cause ; and for copies of the order or orders made by his Majesty's Government in 1823, 1825, and 1833, respecting the employ ment of the police in the service and execution of writs, and of the signatures attached to such orders. The Hon. and Learned Member had moved for these returns in order to draw the attention of the House, and, through the House, the attention of the public, to some new facts, which, in his (Mr. .Sheil's) opinion, tended to place the question of tithes in Ire land in a new and conspicuous light. He wished to make the House aware of the nature and character of the proceedings of a society recently formed in Ireland, calling itself the Lay As sociation, for the purpose of protecting the property of the clergy of the Established Church.---(Hear.) The Lay A sse _ 'ci4ion be ( Mr. Sheil) considered as nothing more nor less than branch of Orangeism, as he should be able to show.--( Ironical cheers from the Opposition.) Perhaps it would be more sa tisfactoiy to the House if lie were immediately, to read from the ;Standcird newspaper the advertisement published by the , ociety in question. (The Hon. and Learned Member then irocceded to read from the paper in question.) The society 'as called " The Lay ASsociation for aiding the Clergy o f is Church of Ireland in protecting the property of the -lurch ;" and he read in the list of subscribers, first, that the •easurer was the Earl of Roden.—( Cheers from the Op ioaition, and laughter from the Ministerial benches.) Th e incidence was odd ; but no doubt it was-fortuitous.—( Laugh ir.) Then there were the names of the Earl of Enniskillen— Renewed cheers from the Opposition)—of the Earl of Ban. (nn--(Cheers)—of Lord Lorton—.(Loud cheers)--of Lord lunham,—(Cheers.) He certainly did not find the name of te• Hon. and Gallant Colonel opposite (Colonel Perceval, we -est:me), but he did find the name of another Hon. and Gal nt Colonel (Colonel' Verner) who sat on the Hon. and Gal- Member's left—his sinister side—(Laughter) —a s a sub .-,riber' of 2Q1.-4 Hear.) Now what he (Mr. Shell) would ask 'as, Whether such proceedings on the part of the Orangemen " Itcland were legitimate? For his own part he considered iat it was illicit for them to lend assistance for the recovery of Litrs, which, however, be admitted to be legal in themselves.— Filear.) But'hc thought that organization such as this was a iry bad substitute for that impartial and legitimate mode of effeeting an adjustment which was now admitted on all hands to be the best for Ireland.—( Hear, hea-. ) When the Right Honourable Baronet opposite came into power, had he not been the first to say . that the time was come for a change in the system by which tithes were collected in Ireland? [lad not the then Secretary for Ireland declared it as his opi rion that tithes ought not to be levied by a British army ? And, in such a state of things, ought those who had supported the Government of the Right Hon. Baronet, and who then conceived that they had cause for supporting it, now to have formed a society the objects to be comprehended by which were such as no man who wished well to Ireland ought to contemplate without having serious doubts excited in his mind ? The first statement which he had to make was, that since the first of August in the last year no less than 617 bills in equityliad been filed by the Lay Association for the recovery of tithes in Ireland. It would be said, why should such Bills not be filed ? His answer would be, that there were already two modes of proceeding, economical and certain, which could .have been resorted to without the necessity of having recourse to the expensive and oppressive medium of a Court of Equity. Tithes up to the amount of ten pounds might have been and still might be • recovered by civil bills, before Magistrates ; but the Lay Association had preferred the ex pensive course which they had pursued. He should produce two strong examples, in individual cases, of the spirit in which these frightful proceedings bad been carried on. The first was the case of the Very Rev. Dilworth Holmes against Robert Hodges. A bill was filed 'in the name of Mr. Holmes against Hodges—that would not be disputed ; and it would further appear that the bill was filed in his name by Mr. Smith, an attorney of great talent, who had filed a great num ber of similar bills on the part of the Society called . the Lay Association. He (Mr. Shell) begged to be understood as not desiring to avail himself of his Parliamentary position in order to advance any thing which could be considered as re flecting on that Gentleman. But what were the facts? Why , on the 4th of January last, Mr. Smith wrote to Hodges, the defendant, calling on him to pay the amount of tithe, 221. — (Hear, hear)—due to Mr. Holmes.' That letter was put into the post office on the sth of January, and the defendant received it on the 6th of January. On the 7th he called to pay the amount, when he did not see Mr. Smith, but the Lay Association insisted that he should pay the sum of 191. 9s. Bd., being the amount of costs incurred between the 4th, when the letter was written, the 6th, when it was received, and the 7th, d when a n de Hodges . for the purpose of paying the amount Hear, hear," and cheers from the Oppo sition.) Was this fact denied ? He now came to another case—one of a much more important nature than the other—he alluded to the case of Knox v. Goven. Before se•nattieorninsgupoinnt,oit h is im ca t s o e , drawor i t n h t e o a l t i t i o s nt o jo b o se o r - f the de o t o a o i s l ss naryof fotrh the House to an enactment in a Bill, commonly called Goul burn's Act. The Act to which he referred, the 3d of Geo. IV., c. 103, had in its 12th section words to the effect, " That the inspectors of police in Ireland might make certain orders and regulations, w hieb, when adopted . by a magistrate, and approved of by the Lord Lieutenant, should constitute the ordinances by which the police were to be regulated, and should be of as much force and effect as if they had formed part of that Act." Upon the authority of this section, then, an order was made in 1823, signed by a late. Chancellor of the EXcliequer, and he (Mr. Sheil) hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman was in the House, as he had previoully infor me d him that h e s h ou ld make the present use of the ofneY 1/37 bitilgOlf; which or d er (in its sixth rule) provided; " That the pidig stidirld not inter fere in the service of civil proiesses, finless Under the order of a mr*gistrette, er pf t 4 She' or sub-sheriff; and th a t th ey should then consider their duiY to be ?c protect chose persons in the execution of their several duties." Here was the order made in 1823, when Mr. Goulburn was Secretary for Ireland, and the Right /Ion; Henry ,Joy (now Chief Baron of the Exchequer in Ireland) Vail file •legetl aalitiser of the Crown, and which received his unqualified appfotiiifid i ri: That order was repeated in 1825; and since: Such being' 'Alt"' State of the matter as regeatled the liZjY, Wht had been the, course pur sued in the case of Knox v. Goven Mni Staff filed bills in the Exchequer against twenty-two persons, and among the rest against gove i ri ; the tithes claimed as against him amoun ting to only 1/. i ls. :tri.fottnt wa3 important as showing the animus. The bills having been {NIS flied; what was done then ? Why, in December last, Mr. Smith wrote ftiftgr to the Noble Secretary for Ireland, stating that he was employed in the conduct of. a great number of tithe suits, and deman ding the Noble Lord' s o pi n i on as t o th e cour s e w hi c h oug h t to be adopted as regarded the police. The letter was not imme diately answered, and Lord Morpeth soon after received a second letter, complaining of a want of due courtesy (a com plaint which he, Mr. Shell, was sure ail would admit could have no foundation in the intentions of the Noble Lord, what ever might be the cause of the delay in answering the letter of Mr. Smith,) which letter Lord Morpeth immediately an swered, to the eff•ct that no offence had been intended by him, and telling him that the police were only to be employed where actual riot had been committed—and then as the as.. sistants of the Magistrates. This was the answer of th e Noble Lord ; but it would not do for the Lay Associa tion.—( Hear, hear, from .the Ministerial benches.) This brought him to a detail of the expedients which were in consequence employed by that Society, to defeat the operation of the orders to which he had before referred,- as having been made under the authority of the Act called Goulbtirn's Act, and which extended to the employing men of the very lowest order—one Dudley, for instance—and investing them with a power which enabled them to bring the police and the force of the British army into action. Those expedients consisted in the revival of the commissions of rebellion, the nature of which would be within the knowledge of the House. There were no such modes of proceeding in England in the Exche quer or in the Chancery, because by the 22d rule of the Chan cery Court they were expressly abolished, nor had they been other than obsolete in the Irish Court of Exchequer during a period of upwards of 200 years. By this process there was first a summons to the defendants from the Court, then an alias, then a planks, and if this last process were not obeyed, then the defendant was declared a rebel, and a commission of rebellion issued against him, which (so entirely nominal was it intended to be) was usually directed to John Doe and Richard Roe, and was issued in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the time being. At the conclusion of it, however, there was a clause, which was of too valuable a kind to be easily lost sight of by those who desired to avail themselves of anything—of even a mere matter of form. That provision was to the effect that " all persons, ministe rially employed, should assist 'the Commissioners in resisting the rebellion," and the Lay Association availed themselves of its terms to issue a commission of rebellion addressed to one Dudley, who had sworn to having been twenty years in the service, upon receiving which commission this Dudley pro ceeded to put it into execution, Thus a plot was laid to en snare the police, and when he arrived on the spot where the commission was to be executed, Goven and Hodges were thrown into prison. He then applied to Malone, the chief constable of the district, asking him, under the terms of the commission, to assist him in its eftectiticn in several parishes. Malone at once referred Dudley to tile order before men tioned, under which he was prohibited from interfering Unless by order of the Magistrates ; but Dudley insisted on his giv ing him aid, saying that he had been - instructed to apply to him. Malone required time to consult Major Miller, a Ma gistrate resident at a place eighty miles distant, to whom he sent for his opinion, which, when returned, was decidedly ad verse to the application of Dudley for the aid of the police. Upon this a conditional order was moved for in the Court of Exchequer for an attachment against Malone and Major Miller for a contempt of Court, in refusing to comply with the demand of the commissioner of rebellion. Major Miller was therefore obliged to answer Dudley's application ; and the law officers of the Crown, the Attorney and Solicitor Generals, accordingly showed cause against the rule, for the purpose of proving that Malone- had been doing his duty in acting as he had done; and • that Major Miller had advised him rightly. The circumstances attending_ the decision were peculiar. The application for the order was advised by a Barrister named Smith, the Attorney employed by the Lay Association was a Mr. Smith, and the Judges who presided were Baron Foster (Baron Pennefather being absent) and Baron Smith, who had been ill from the 2d of November, the commencement of the Term, but was fortunately restored to health by the 26th of January, the day on which this question came on. All the world knew that Baron Smith was a person liable to the influence of his political opinions. As, unfortu nately, it generally occurred in Courts of Justice in Ire land, there was a. great deal of discussion on political sub jects, and the Counsel employed to sustain the case of the Lay Association did not scruple to charge the Government with having colluded with p ar ti es i n Ireand to hinder the recovery of tithe, upon which allegation the Solicitor-General; with all that manliness of eloquence for which he was distin guished, retorted in denial. The result was that Mr. Baron Smith ruled that Malone had subjected himself to the attach ment, thus virtually setting aside the order of Mr. Goulburn before detailed, and decided that Dudley had a right to call the police to his aid. (" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial Benches.) And now he asked what would be the state of Ire land after such a decision—with an association which had the Earl of Roden at its head, which divided the country into districts in order the .better to enforce the attainment of its objects, and which had already filed 617 bills in equity, some of them for sums as low as Is. 9d. ? Let the House con ceive what might be done by what had been done. Surely the name of Borris-e-kane must have struck on the ears of some Hon. Members. Surely it must ring in their remem brance. That was a place where there was a conflict, where mass was said in the dead of night over the bodies of the slain, and where every ceremony was adopted which could strike upon the religious feelings of the people. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving for the returns which he had previously read to the House. • Mr: Sergeant JACKSON said that both his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for the UniVersity of Dublin (Mr. Lefroy) and himself had cause to complain of the course which the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary had taken on this occasion. The first part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's motion formed the subject matter of a distinct notice ; and as he had told them that lie would not submit it to the attention of the House without giving them some previous notice of his intention, they clearly had a right to complain of having been taken by surprise.—( Hear, hear.) Taken as he was by surprise, he was not prepared • but still he would do justice to the Lay Association recently formed in Ireland, to aid the Clergy in obtaining their legitimate rights by de fending them against the attack which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman bad made against them.—( Hear, hear.) The Honourable and Learned Member had made a number of al legations for the purpose of showing that he had grounds for his motion, but he had no hesitation in asserting that not a single one of those allegations was founded in fact.—(Cheers.) He asserted that the association_ was not an Orange society, although he believed no Roman Catholic gentlemen belonged to it.—(A laugh.) It was now the fashion to stigmatise ever3body in Ireland who was not of that persuasion.— (Cheers froin the Opposition, and cries of " Oh, oh," from the Ministerial benches.) He repeated that it was now the fashion to stigmatise and render odious every Protestant who refused to submit to the domination of a certain despicable faction in that country.—( Renewed cheers, and cries of " No, no.) He asserted that it was, arid that too, fearlessly, and without the hazard of contradiction.—( Vehement cheering.'" An exten sive confederation, or lather conspiracy, existed throughout the whole of that country to rob the Clergy.—(Cheers.) The Clergy were not only pillaged and plundered to an incredible extent, but they found it utterly impossible to assert their rights ; and such, in short, was the universal dread which this conspiracy inspired in the minds of men, that even the Hon. and Learned Member himself had declared that he dared nut Wh assigned wonderedrest i ghpypr. Learned ee aht ndd s ne e ec l Gbfneal payagainstment vty ttfihlteaeihamtnn thealt smear i t.—( Cries of " No, no," from Mr. Shell. ) the application.—( cco. a l al i raa a epr n rpoicgd d ,ifi iyec a itra,iigvett l imi at ealoerrnens e r::_ r ndi n G.l Cheers.) driven, ;I written echtehtl aroe b sdsm. y u t)aachphn t ei fal e coni erroe l decu l al o e; stds n i osos. non compliance tyialolvitbniaomde-s: filing bills for the recovery of their rights when they found it impossible to obtain from the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen— from a Member of the Legislature —payment of their dues without the interference of the law ?—( Renewed cheers.) But the House would like to know what the 'answer was which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman gave to the clergyman al luded to. • He tells.him— Mr. SHEIL—Read the whole letter. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—He had not the least objection to hand the letter to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman might, if he thought fit, read the whole of it to the House, but he hoped the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would do him the honour to allow him to exercise his own judgment in selecting and - reading from it the passage which struck him as most pertinent to the matter in hand.---( Cheers.) In other respects he wished it to be un derstood that this letter was by no means discreditable to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Cries of " Read, read," from Mr. Shied arid others.) He was not to be dictated to by either the Hon. and Learned Gentleman or by any other Hon. Member on the opposite side of the Ilouse, as to the course which he should pursue on this or any other occasion. —(Great cheering, and faint cries of " Oh, oh.") In this letter the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, " You must be aware that as Member for the county of Tipperary, I am obliged to make my election between the payment of tithes and the loss of my seat."—(Tremendous cheering.) Such was the reason which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman assigned-for refusing to pay the tithes which he owed ; but to what a pass bad things come when a Member of that house was afraid to discharge a lawful de mand because of an atrocious conspiracy of this kind--wh . en his holding his seat depended rather on his compliance with the will of such a confederation than his obedience to the laws. —( Renewed cheeri n g.) Under these circumstances h e should like to k now whether any P r otestant could see the Clergy of' the reli g i on which he professed reduced to beggary, in the actual process of starvation, and not come forward to compel those to pay them that which they refused to pay them except by the intervention of the laws.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had stated as a fact what was altogether untrue. He had said that the Lay Association had filed no fewer than 600 bills for the recovery of tithes. Mr. SHEIL—I said 617, not 600: Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—Whether it was six hundred or six hundred and seventeen, he denied the fact in the most positive terms. The statement was wholly destitute of truth. --.(Cheers,) Let the Hon. and Learned Gentleman prove if he could that a sixth or even an eighth pe/t of the number of bills ltc had stated had been filed. Well but, said the Hon. and Learned ae n tleriann, there was no necessity for taking such cases into the Court of Exchequer when the Civil Bill Court was open to the parties to the extent of lot This was a plausible argument, no doubt; but he should be glad to know how claims in respect to tithes could be enforced by an inferior tribunal. They were all aware, or had, at all events, heard, of the manner which process servers were treated when they attempted t o carry t h e l aw i nto execution. He had been concerned in several cases in which the unfortunate process server had encountered violence and outrage of the worst kind. He could satisfy any man that the Clergy could not obtair, their rights through the instrumentality of an inferior jurisdic tion, and although it was charged against them as a crime, they had no alternative left but to resort to th e C ourt o f Ex ecluer. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated that Mr. I,g ai ith a s the attorney of the Lay' Association, and he charged that aentlctnan with— Mr. SHEIL made no charge against Mr. Smith, and meant to make none. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON.—WeII, but the .Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that air. Smith was the attorney of the Lay Association. This statement was just as void of foundation as the other allegations which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made.--(Cheers.) Mr. Smith neither was nor ever had been the solicitor of the Lay Association, but that Association had a solicitor, not, however, for the purpose of originating suits, but seeing that assistance was given in no case that did not merit interference and that the proceedings were properly, c on d uc t e d. M r . Richard Open, a gentleman of high character in the profession, was the solicitor of the Association, and his duty was rather to prevent oppression than 'to cause it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman also said that in tito ease of Holmes and Hodges costs had Leen accumulated to an extraordinary amount, not by Mr. Smith but by the Lay Association. But would the Hon. and Learned Gentleman .have the hardihood to assert that the Lay Association had any concern whatever with that case, either directly or indirectly ? Ile , called on the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to do so if he dared.—(Loud and continued cheering.) He (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) verily believed that the Lay Association never even heard of the case; at least he, who was a member of it, and had attended its meetings, never had.—( Hear, hear, hear.) As it was not his intention to object to the motion, all he hoped was that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would yen der the returns more comprehensive still—that he would have ascertained not only how many suits had been brought.—how many demands had been paid in consequence—what amount of costs had been incurred—but how many decrees had been pronounced, and what the number of bills was that had been dismissed on the hearing.—(Hear, hear.) He would now pass on to another part of the subject—that which related to the conduct of the Barons of the Exchequer. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was emphatic in. his complaint about the rule prepared while Mr. Chief Baron Joy was Attorney-Ge neral, under the Act of the 3d of George IV., and he repre sented it as an extraordinary thing that Mr. Baron Smith should have been well enough to go to Court when the case of Knox n, Goven was heard. He did not know what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman meant to insinuate but although he (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) was not there to vin dicate either the Right Hon. Chief Baron Joy, Mr. Baron Foster, Mr. Baron Pennefather, or Mr. Baron Smith, he was bound to say that the characters of those eminent persons were above any imputation that the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman could cast upon them—that they were utterly incapa ble of being swayed by any motive other than an anxious and conscientious desire to discharge their public and im portant duties impartially.—( Loud cheering.) Now, with respect to the decision come to by the Court of Ex chequer in the case of Knox v.. Goven, no two lawyers, he thought, could differ. That decision was clearly in accord ance with the law, and although the Act emp(Tered the In spectors of Police, with the approbation of the Lord Lieute nant, to make rules and regulations for the . conduct of the constabulary, it could not be contended that ti set aside the jurisdiction of the King's Judges. On this point he was at any time prepared to meet the Hon. and Learned Member, pr any other lawyer in the country.—( Cheers.) It was utterly false, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, that the Com mission of Rebellion had been abolished in England. It was true that the Law Commissioners had recommended its aboli tion ; but it was also most certain, unfortunately for the truth of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's assertion, that a party was brought before Lord Brougham, while Chancellor, under a writ of this description—( Vehement cheering)--and that that Noble Lord refused to discharge him, observing that he could not help his being detained in custody.—( Renewed cheering.) It was, therefore, as contrary to the fact to say, that the Commission of Rebellion had not been in use in Ire- land for 200 years, as it was to assert that it had been abo lished in this country. He had now shown that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's facts were not facts ; but as he did not wish to fatigue the House, he would abstain from further ob servations. Mr. HUME suggested that they should have all the details, both the number of the bills, the amount of tbe. debts claimed, the costs incurred, and the names of the Attorneys. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had not the slightest objection to that or anything else which was likely to afford the House proper information. Mr. O'LOGHLIN wished to observe that no Bill filed so late as the Ist of August last could have come on for hearing, and, consequently, as there could be no hearing, there could be no dismissal. The Hon. and Learned Sergeant he sup posed wished it to be inferred, from what he bad stated, that because no bill had been dismissed, the whole of the suits had therefore been instituted properly. He threw out this intima tion merely to put the House on their guard as to the real fact. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had himself been present when decrees of - sequestration had been made. Mr. O'LOGHLIN denied that the. Hon. and Learned Sergeant could have been present at anything of the kind. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had no objection to enlarge the motion to meet the suggestion of the Hon. and Learned Member, the Attorney-General for Ireland. The SPEAK ER then put the question, after which Mr. O'CONNELL rose, and said that with respect to the proceedings of the Lay Association, of which the reamed Gentleman had talked so triumphantly, he had no hesitation to say that he considered their proceedings to be vexatious. lie did not say that the Clergymen had not a right to proceed for the recovery of their tithes, but how did they proceed ? They first went to war with the . people, and then to law.vvith them. They issued their 617 Exchequer writs, followed by a Commission of rebellion for the recovery of their tithes. As to the proceedings of the Lay Association, instead of going to law themselves, they subscribed money to enable the Clergy men to go to law. He did not blame any man to contribute to the support of the Clergyman in whose doctrines he be lieved. He thought that those who subscribed for the relief and assistance of their Clergy were entitled to credit, and if that principle had been carried to its full extent, they would never have had occasion to hear of the triumphant. decision of the Lay Association. He did not enter into any question as to the legality of the proceedings of the Lay Asso ciation, but he knew when be was at the Bar that for any set of persons to contribute or subscribe money for the pur pose of carrying on vexatious lawsuits was considered criminal. It was what the law considered maintenance, and for which the parties were punishable. He believed the lion. Gentleman would so far coincide with him. With respect to the jurisdic tion of the Court of Exchequer, the lion. and Learned Gent. was mistaken. The Exchequer was purely a judicial Court. It did not possess a criminal jurisdiction. They could not, in the execution of any of their writs, assume or take upon them the command of the constabulary force. The party named to execute the writ was not named by the Court of Exchequer, but by the plaintiff who sued out the writ, and who might have the loWest process server in the community to be the principal party in its execution. It was not, let them mark, the Court of Exchequer that named the party who was to be principal in the execution of the writ. The plaintiff' named the person, and was it to be supposed that it could have been contemplated to. leave any such party the power of calling to its aid the police or military force ? if murder was committed in the tx:eugon of this writ the Court of exche quer would have no power to arrest. It' high treason or Llony had been committed the Court of Exchequer would not have the least right to interfere. . Yet this course was taken, and this was the law which had been so triumphantly stated by the lion. and Learned Member. He arraigned the purpose and the objects of the Lay Association. Their pro ceedings had been adopted for a political purpose. He had no hesitation to say that if this authority were established, and that the constabulary force of the country were placed at the disposal of parties named in the writs of the Court of Exche quer, it might be attended with the most dangerous conse quences... He would ask, was it to be held as law, that the Court of Exchequer, a CoUrt of inferior jurisdiction, should have the right to command the forces, civil and military, in these dominions ? Was it to be h e ld th a t a C ou rt of' inferior class should be held to possess such a power as this ? The particular jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer was to aid in the collection of the King's debts. It could not, unless under a fiction, recover debts for a private individual. That fiction was, that such plaintiff being a - King's debtor, he could not, unless aided by the Court of Exchequer in.the recovery of the debt due to him, pay his debt to the Crown. As to what had been said of the power of the Court of Exchequer to devise new writs, it could not do so unless by perversion of the law. The Hon. and Learned Member had bestowed great pains in vindicating the jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer. He had certainly been thumping the box with as much excite ment as if he seemed to say, " Hurrah for the Court of Exche quer !" He seemed, in fact, as if he was 'beating the White boys, and knocking down those who were for the non-payment of tithes. After some furthe r o b servat i ons, the Hon: and Learned Gentleman proceeded to say, that he felt he was sure that the Act of Parliament ou g ht not to b e left at the dictation of Baron Joy and Baron Smith, and that he contended - the Court of Exchequer had no criminal jurisdiction whatever, and that the issuing of a writ o f re b e lli on was riot a remedy, but a wrong.—( Hear, bear.) Mr. LEF'ROY was not surprised to hear the lion. and Learned Gentleman arraign the Court of Exchequer. There was no respectable body in the empire which, he believed, had not at one ti m e or • t i ther been the object of the lion. aad Learned Gentl eman ' s i nve ctive.—( Hear ) time since he believed the Hon. Gentleman had • arraigned some of the members of his Majesty's present Governiiit.( He certainly felt surprised t o see an member of the legal. professio n stan d up in his place to arraign the power of the Exchequer to issue writs in the cases referred to. With re spect to the jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer he would quote a high authority on that part of the subject. The lion. and Learned Member read very briefly an extract from sonic authority with respect to jurisdiction of the Court of Exche quer, establishing the. jut isdiction of that Court in the issue of uch writs as had been referred to. He was surprised to hear in Parliament the authority of the Courts of Justice denied and their proceedings cavilled at. If the power of the. Courts id Vindicate the law was to be juterfered with ' Where was the protection for the safety of society, for the li • berty of individuals, or for the rights of the subject. He Rai surorised to hear such an argument. The Hon. and Learned • Member for Dublin had talked as if this proceeding 0 was a revival of' an obsolete practice. B ut i t was no seek thing. He had had thirty-five Years' exp er i ence at the B ar, and he had always known that when the Courts had bad their authority set at defiance they had' resorted to the most effee ; tual means in their possession to vindicate their authority.—.. dHear, hear.) When defiance was set to the law, and when civil rights were invaded, aggressed, it was right that the law should put all its energy forth in its own vindication, for the. maintenance of its own dignity and the protection of th ose rights. The jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer required this vindication. It had been contended on the other side that the power of calling into assistance the police force was not to be exercised unless by the interference and under the con troul of a Magistrate. r But, notwithstanding all that had been attempted to be contended to the contrary, be never could persuade himself that a power would be given to a sub sidiary Magistrate which would be denied to one of the high Courts of the country. In this conviction he would not offer any further observations.—(Cheers.) Mr. O'LOG IIL EN did not deny that the practice of issu ing writs of rebellion existed ; but then he would say that even in the Court of Exchequer in Ireland, a person writing against the practice of that Court, so long back as 177 D, called it even then an obsolete practice.—( Hear, hear.) The Court of Chance,7 in Ireland bad abolished it.—(Hear.) Though he- a d m itt e d th e ex i stence o f t h e process i n the Court of Exchequer, he did not know of its being executed but in one or two instances. The question i; not as to the issuing of the writ, but whether that House was prepared to sanction a Court in declaring this—that it would attach for contempt every man who refused a bailiff to go and assist him. And this was a question which affected the liberty of every indi vidual—( Hear, and cheers)—because if it were to be held that the police constables were to be attached for not obeying the summons of a commission to a writ of reboli:on, there was no,persim in the community safe—nay, the Chief Baron him self might be attached for a similar proceeding. - --( Hear, hear.) The police in Ireland, as the House knew from a dis . 'cussion whiclitook place in the early part of the evening, awed their origin to an Act passed in 1822. That body of police now consisted of upwards of 7,000 men. The expense of supporting them was defrayed half out of the consolidated fund, and the other half was paid by a tax levied in the dif ferent counties in which they were employed. Under:the Act of Parliament, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had the power of framing rules and regulations, not merely as regarded the police, but what exactly was the duty that the constables had to perform. In 1823 the Lord Chief Baron, then Solicitor- General, admitted in Court, when pressed upon the subject, that he had framed the rule which had been named by the Ho nourable Member for Tipperary, and in that rule it was dis tinctly laid down that the police were not to interfere in the executions by civil process, unless called upon by a Magis trate, or the Sheriff in person.—( Hear.) In 1823 this rule was framed by the Chief Baron, immediately after passing the Act, and it was regulated that no person who was a She riff's bailiff should be appointed a constable. A question arose both between the Sheriffs and Magistrates upon this subject. The Sheriffs insisted that the police should aid, them in the execution of these writs. The Government, however, insisted that the police constable was only to be a preserver of.* pub lic peace. In 1823, the Lord Chief Baron having teen ap plied to on the part of Lord Carbery, for the aid of the police in the execution of tithe warrants, gave this as his opinion : It might be right to advert to the impropriety pf employing the police to assist in the execution of tithe-warrant—the in- terference of that body in assisting in the first instance in the execution of civil process being most improper."—( Cheers from the Opposition Members.) He wished that Honour able Gentlemen would reserve their cheers until they were more required. This opinion proceeded,—" If any breach of the peace is committed by resistance to civil process, then—and not till then—can the interference of the police be warranted, and this for the purpose of apprehending the offenders."—(Hear, and loud cheering from the Ministerial Benches.) The Lord Chief Baron then advised that the po lice should only interfere after a breach of the peace, and that b ut rcr the purpose of apprehending the offenders.—( Hear. ) In .1823 :he Sheriff of Limerick called for the aid of the police in the execui.!?n of civil process ; and when they looked at this case, he would ask, could any person contend that when assistance was refused to the Sheriff, that it should be given to a bailiff named by the plaintiff?—(hear, and cheers)—that the first and most respectable officer should be refused, and that every person named in this writ ~should have such aid ?—( Hear, hear.) If the police went out under the orders of a magis trate, the law shielded them as long a they acted under the orders of that magistrate ; but they all knew, from sad expe rience, what unhappy conflicts had taken place when they, had been so called out; but would it now be said that it was the duty of the Government to allow the police to go without a magistrate or a sheriff—that the whole of the police should go with any person, however respectable or otherwise ? Thus they should be taken by such a person to conflicts, perhaps to be attended with loss of life, as they had known several in stances of the kind .to have occurred.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) In 1823, the Sheriff of Limerick applied for aid, and this was the answer given : " . I 'have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 14th instant, and having by the Lord-Lieutenant's desire, consulted the law advisers of the Crown, lam to acquaint you that he is of opi nion that except in a case of actual breach of the peace, the po lice cannot be employed by you in the capacity of Sheriff."— ( Cheers.) _ The Sheriff inclosed a copy of the opinions of Mr. Saurin and Mr. Penncfather, stating that they considered the police could be taken out, and requested that the (minion of the law officers of the Crown should be given. The Sheriff stated that his county was under the Peace Preservation; as well as the Insurrection Act; and that he could not, without immi nent danger of life, attempt to execute Court processes. This was the application of the Sheriff; and he would read now the answer of the Solicitor-General Joy ; he was war ranted in calling it so, for the original was there in his hand- Ivriting : " December 24, 1825. " have received, and laid before the Lord-Lieutenant, Y our letter of the 19th inst., soliciting the aid of the police in the execution of writs, and I am to acquaint you that it is no part of the duty of the constables under the 3d Geo. IV., c. 103, to assist in executing such writs. and his Excellency therefore cannot give•the order which you require ; but if the persons properly authorised to execute them are obstructed or resisted in the execution of that duty, the constables will be bound, on informations as to the cir cumstances being sworn before a Magistrate, to apprehend the per sons concerned in such obstruction or resistance, for the purpose of bringing them to punishment." This letter appeared to be signori by the Under-Secretary for Ireland. To it was appended this : " Tile new constables are to be employed in arresting any of the persons %vim can be sworn to have been guilty of the attack on tl.e sheriff. As to assisting the sheriff to execute, civil process, they are not to be Called on except as part of the posse comitatus, from which service they are not exempt. January 24, 1825." The magistrates and sheriffs were not satisfied with this, and the case was laid before the Attorney-General and the .Soli citor-General. The opinion given by them was— " We have already, on full consideration, given our opinion that the proper duty of the constables appointed under• the new Act is to act in the execution of magistrates' warrants in cases only where a breach of the peace is committed ; in all other eases the magis trates are at liberty to proceed as they have hitherto done, the power of appointing constables for such other purposes remaining unaffected by the late Act. The magistrates, therefore, will dinet their warrants as usual, but should not deliver them for trfxcubion to the new constables. " W. C. PLUNKET. " August, 1824 't " lIY. JOY. This was in 1824, and in that year such was the opinion given by the present Lord Chwicellor and the present Lord Chief Baron.—( Cheers.) In 182-1- another application fur assistance was made, and this answer was also returned by the Chief _Neon : " I have had the honour of receivi' u and submittin- , to the Lord Lieutenant your letter of the 29th ult., representing, by desire of the Justices of the Peace acting in the barony of Clanwilliamnorth, and county of Limerick, the difficulty in which they arc placed in consequence of the police not being employed to execute warrants fiar the recovery of tithe. • I am directed by his Excellency to in font you that after the most mature and repeated consideration of the subject, it is considered that the employment of the police, in tia. first instance, in the execution of civil process, would tend mainly to dlleat the great object of their institution ; but that if any breach of the peace should be committed in resisting civil pro cess, the employment of the police to apprehend the offenders would b quite consistent with the purpose for which they were established, am! would be highly proper. He bad to state now, that another application was made by the sub-sheriff of the county of Clare, who applied to the High Constable Watkins to give him some mounted police to assist in the service of writs. He would mfer for the answer then given to the. then Secretary for Ireland, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was to this effect " I have submitted to the Lord Lieutenant your letter of the 13th, stating the Can under which the Under-Sheriff fcr the county of Clare had required the attendance of the mounted constables for his protection, and requesting instructions as to the course to be pursued by you in the' event of such demands being repeated. am commanded to acquaint you that the constables cannot legally be employed by the sheriff or his deputy, in the execution of civil process, and as it is essential that this should be distinctly under stood, it will be necessary that all applications for this purpose should be withstood. In the execution of criminal process, or for the mainteranee of the public peace, the sheriff has a legal power or req guirin the service of the constable." Here the police would not be given to the sheriff of Clare, when calling for their assistance in the execution he of ci t i b i e King's writs. Now this was the opinion g iven by t ef Baron, who now said that it was a contempt in constables wi, refused to aid a writ of rebellion...--( Cheers.) The effect of so emPloying the police upon such matters was described in the following letter from a chief constabli: in l 824 : " Sia—l have to report the conduct of AIL', Benjamin Green, snt-Acriff of this county : this day he had three mouotcd men out, executing a warrant, and on his return said to Sergeant .talls that he would require four mounted men in the morning to go elo,:e to O'Brien's Bridge, there toprotect him in performifig his duty. On my return from Tulla, Sergeant Hy ails acquainted me with his wishes. I sent my compliments to Mr. Green (by Sergeant Bvalls) that the dutics to beperformed were out of my district that ' he couit, get men at. O'Brien's Bridge. He replied l was tor} impu l, ,tent for sending such a ra ysige, and that he should hare the \ Sergeant its'ns returned, he reported Mr. Green'A rev' y wa: , iv down to call on Mr. 'Green, but met him in Gard-o :tj rom the party he was speaking to, eall:J him aside to him he comnzenced abusing mt. in on my commencing to ssia,e..,k lie should have the horses to go i a most violent manner .o there for his use, and ma ? ' other he pleased, tha . t to ti m y m w o c ry rr . I replied he should hav'eny othe things I cannot can e the horses, but that I would report the circumstance to you ; he said I might do so, and was so very temperate as to collect a mob about us. I have now, Sir, to beg the favour of an inquiry into this case. If I have been in error it will be the means of preventing a recurrence ; if, on the other hand, it will appear I have not been in error, I trust you will have the goodness to take such steps as you may think best, so as to protect me in the execution of your orders ; the place Mr. Green is going to is Doonass, two miles from O'Brien s Bridge,