The Sun. — London, England, 1826-03-11 00:00:00

iluctinA what is to be paid to the Bank from what they have to - pay, they will not be in advance above fifteen millions, instead •erll twenty-fours now deducting nine from twenty-four mil materially altered the complexion of it. His Hon. Friend would say eighteen millions, but even between eighteen and twenty-four millions, there was still a great difference.— What, however, was the state of the fact P Was there any 404 that believed the Bank really to have been embarrassed or in difficulties, they had always been ready to advance to in dividual merchants as far as prudence could warrant. He had never put a question on this subject to his Hon. Friends behind hitn—he had not thought it necessary. The facts showed that they were not choked up. When the necessity arose, they did take that cnurse which circumstances required, and that without ~beingimpededby any thing arising out ot' thew connection with . Government. They had acted in a manner the most prudent, end the most conducive to the public welfare, and he must take that opportunity, of saying, that in all the intercourse lie had had with the Bank Directore, he had found th em meet anxious t oo promote the general welfare of the community. Tne reso lutions of his lion. Friend were prospective. His recommenda „thins would receive their answer from his Right Hon. Friend hethre a long period had elapsed. He had, he knew, been in the habit of running It race with the Chancellor of the Exche enter, but as the statement of the financial situation of the coun try and of the views of Government would be laid before the House in two or three days, he was at a loss to suppose why it . should pow he called on to pledge itself to any particular mea mires. If any such pledge were now given, it would be incon sistent with the usual circumspection of that House. With re spect to that part of the resolutions which was retrospective, he trusted he had said enough to convince the house that Govern ment had not been so careless or negligent of its duty as to melt the cent:tires:which the resolution inflicted. Mr. IlAtt LNG said that it /night be supposed, from the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, Ghat the motion related to the recent distress. The question, however, was upon the state of the Unfunded Debt. And here lie must epee with the Hon. 4lentleinan, that it would be improper and inconsistent to put Resolutions upon their Journal on the Friday, relating to a sub ject which was in a formal and regular way to be brought under their notice on the following Monday. Alter the Chancellor of the,Exchequer should have made his statement, it would then .lien lit time for his Hon. Friend to bring forward any measures he might have to suggest. The amount of the Unfunded Debt 'would be too much or too little according to circumstances. — „Without giving any opinion as to what ought now to be done, lie certainly thought it would have been wise when Consols Were 95, to fund not only Exchequer Bills, but every other claim upon Government for which money could be demanded. --'l'he advance of the Bank capital fell under this description, anti more particularly deserved attention, as the period was fast approachingg, when it must be repaid, or, as the only alternative, a renewed charter granted td , the Bank. This claim amounted to 13 millions. Ile thought, there must be some error in the ' .calculations of the lion. Gentleman. The whole amount was • not sullictent, he thought, to give such large results. ever might I i " said ofeagaeity after the evil, lie could not help retying, that when the funds were so near 100, it would ;nave been good policy to fund. There might then have been u less of 'fivteper cent., but they were now liable to a loss of thirty, or forty. Compared with the importance of placing the country in a situation of firmness and strength, the object . of a million or two of money was of little consequence. Ile .wits convinced that his calculation of twenty-four mil lions, as the,amount of the Bank engagements with Govern ment when he took the liberty upon the Currency question of stating the resources of the Bank were choked up, was below the mark. He had compared the present situation of the Batik with its situationin 17113 and 1797, and for this purpose was warranted iu taking the deficiency bills as the ground work of his reasoning. He had not yet beard uny thing from the Treasury Bench to exculpate the Government. The Bank had been compelled by the elate of the exchanges to screw down • the'eurrency, and this had contributed to the calamities. The history of the thing was as plain as figures could make it. In • the spring , of last year, which was the bubble period, the Bank notes in circulation were front 20 to 21 millions. Then the 'Bank took alarm in the state oldie exchanges, and began draw ing in, till they came down to 17,400,000, at which point they stood in November idlest year, when the distress had got nearly to its work. Then the Bank began to display its gallantry, end it has now notes in cireulation to the amount of twenty.six millions. Ile was not in any secret, but lie understood these trensactions as well us if lie had been sitting the whole of the time In the Bunk parloitr. These violent changes, this sporting with the whole property of the country, was highly injurious.— some might iirmate the blame to the Government, others to the Bank, but it was quite clear that they must divide the blame between them, in what proportions he would not pretend to de . tet mine. • If the Batik had not been in distress, its sales of Ex .chequer Billehail excited the itlea that something; must be wrong, and hail produced a very natural panic. The lion. . Member then commented on the engageteent of the Bank to pay the dead weight, and thought it ought to be stopped front going further. The Bank could never sell the annuities granted to it • inn consideration of 'these, payments. When the Bank wished to sell securities, the dealers would naturally be indisposed to buy, because every body knew that sales by the Bank would be eatteuded by adituinution of the currency. This bargain did nothing but perplex the national accounts. Even a Right Hon. Gentleman whose business it was to follow the operations of 'Government had conleseed his inability to understand them.— The basis of this measure was, that the Half Pay and Pensions should gradually diminish—it tippeared by the Army Estimates that, on the contrary, they were encreasing. Thus the whole fountletion of their ealculations had been taken away. 'The Honourable Member 'apologieed for having soling occupied the intention of the Douse. lie would not sit do wn w i t h out ex -1 , preesinghte hope that no further delays would intervene before • the Chancellor, of the. Exchequer produced his statement. The 'greatest anxiety preva iled for the disclosures he would h a ve t o make. , • • . 'file CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said that his Hon. Friend had so ably replied to the observations of the lion. Member for Abingdon, that It would only be necessary for him loamy a very few words. He agreed with the lion. Gentleman ~, who leoLjuet spoken, that the success oldie present Ilesnlutions .would, perplex and confuse the arrangement of businesi in that House, slut at as much as the paper of the lion. Mover per •plexed and confused the subject to which they related. Ile did • : not think himself called upon to defend the whole financial pro :. eeoclings for the last ten years. 8o long, as he had been particularly concerned, it certainly had not been deny part at the policy of (government to keep up it large un funded debt as a thing desirable in itself. iVhat, however, ewitsolie amount of the unftinded debt ten years ago ? On the •• Jatnuary, MK it wait sixty-one millions; it was now 30 so much as one-half. lion. Gentlemen might say this this reduction was not enough ; it was enough, however, to afford prima Riede evidence that Government had not been negligent of the subject. But with respect to ,the last three years, tiering which period he had been particularly concerned ; the funds during the whole of this period had been between • • 91.1 and 100. In April, 1028, they had been no more than 74, end a short time previous to that they were only at 72. Now, he .ventured 4o say, that if they had inclined to fund ut this price, the lion. Gentlemen opposite would have been heard In their gundemnatinn. Then, with respect to the year 1024, the Honourable Gentleman assumed that they hail never turned .heir thoughts towards the subject. It must be remembered, that when Exchequer Bills were nt a high premium, as they ..won) . at that time, the holders would not be very ready to fund them, without the Inducement of a high bonus. To have offered a high bonus would not have been good economy, it would have raised the economical spirit of the Honourable Member jot Aberdeen, and they would have been lashed probably more than eta any other occasion. Besides it would have been 'unwise to fund Exchequer Bills, nnd thus lower the price •of the Stocks when at the tame moment, they were reduc . .ing the interest of the Four per Cents., an operation the suc rceas of which depended on the Stocks being high. Unless kildir had ftbandoned that beneficial measure, it would have been impossible ter reduce • the unfunded debt to any consider •hhie extent- Something, however, was done in that year. The . revenue wad so liourlithing as to reduce the deficiency bills. The !Subject of the deficiency hill* -was not generally under ettood, he would endeavour in a few words to explain it. There Wen certain . quarterly, payments, he m eant t h e Dividends upon the Public Debt„ and the Civil List, which were charged upon ' the Consolidated Fund. That Fund greatly exceeded the charges upon it. Without professing to be quite accurate, he would call the charges 35 millions annually, and the amount of the Conitolidated Fund 45 millions. 'The difference was , applied to the general services of the State. The taxes were however always in progressive course of payment, portions of them were received every day and lodged in the Bank, .that corporation thus obtained the use of lergd mums of the pnblic money. It was, however thought advisable that the public should have the profit arising from their own money. These balances were, therefore, diminished. it then be. came necessary that the Bank should, at the quarterly pc- T iede of paying the dividends and the Civil List, advance whatever sum might be wanted to make up the difference : b et ween what was in the Exchequer, and the amount of These advances were' male upon the security of bu c h atitt er bills, which were reduced successively as the procee ds of th e revenue permitted. But it so happened that In 1824, the revenue was so flourishing that there was little or It appeared to tarn expedient, therefore, to no deficiency. - e owing produce of the revenue in that year ''' 3l)l4 Y a part °t. th the ett den Deb t to, th e redemption at n F our mt one were •Honourable Members for Aberdeen and tie' a pp lied. Abingdon „ nun app l a ud a ftreatinte by which a considerable itevittg of interest was effected. On December 24, March 25, June s2k t on each of these days one million had been - ridefription of bills held by the Bank, and to e" , thv publtd alluethert of rip less than three Million* had been paid, parties having applied for money to that amount instead of receiving new bills. Honourable Gentlemen may perhaps say, that this is not enough ; but still it is something. At all events it was enough to prove that Government had not in this particular been negligent of the interest of the country. He was fully justified in saying, that had it not been for these payments, there would at this moment have been no de ficiency. The charges made against Government he must contend were unjust. If the Honourable Gentleman seriously thought the finances were so mismanaged, he was surprised that he did not bring the subject regularly and formally before the House: His charges went the full length of imputing to Go. vernment an abandomeat of its duty. It' those charges were well founded, he, in particular, could no longer be consi dered 'as a fit person for the situation he now held. If the lion. Member could induce the House to coincide in that opinion, his Majesty's Government would of course feel them selves placed in a situation which left them but one alternative; and he, for one, should not be very vehement in his complaints against such an event. lint he really thought it was not quite fair to charge upon them an utter incapacity to discharge their duties by an amendment of this nature. No one could deny that it was competent for the Hon. Member to produce any Resolution to the House upon a question of Supply ' • but AS this ltesolutioti involved a censure which left him and his Col. leagues in the situation he had described, he was exceedingly sorry that the House would have to meet it upon a question of form, and not upon its merits. However, the vote of the House might be considered as referring to the merits of the case, and it decided in favour of the charge of incapacity on the part of those entrusted with the management of the finances of the country, he should be ready to bow with all due deference to that decision: Mr. HUM E thought the question had not been fairly met by any Gentleman who had spoken on the other side. lie put the case of the National Debt, and the general finances of the coun try, as between private individuals, and contended tint it proved the correctness of die positiol taken by his Honourable l'riend, the Member for Abingdon. In 1019 the.charges on the country might have been purchased for 032,000,0001. of the cur rency of the c Juntry at that time, and the interest upon that was 29,144,7611. Now, by the manner in which the Government had been going on, buying and selling, and constantly incur ing immense losses to die country, the capital of the debt amounted to 893,783,2821., being an increase of 61,646,836/. — The interest now was 29,176,000.. being an increase of 31,396/. Thus, he contended, that the bad management of the Govern-' mein, and die false principles upon which they had acted, had rendered of no avail the 19,600,000/. of surplus revenue which had arisen by the reduction of taxation. The Ho. nourable Member then made his statement of the finances for the last seven years to maintain his argurnent. The only remedy was to simplify the public accounts, and to follow the example of America or of any merchant who wished to keep clear accounts, by having a balance sheet that would show the state of the income and expenditure of the country at one view. He then supported the arguments of Mr. Blaberly, to shew that there had been equal mismanagement inthe unfunded debt. The influence Of Exchequer Bills in depreciating the value of 'property had been overlooked, by those who charged it upon the issues of Bank paper. The con duct of the Government in this respect had given more crmp. ragement to gambling speculationa. than any other transaction whatever. A large portion of Exchequer Bills ought to have been funded in BM, anti by not doing so, the Government had placed themselves in a situation not to be able to meet 'any emergency hr which the country might be placed, as recent facts had proved. He wished his Hon. Friend had brought die subject forward by a substantial measure, upon which the House could have expressed a clear opinion. Mr. MABEitLY shortly replied, and said he should not press the motion to a division. The Resolutions were then negatived, and the original ques tion for the Speaker leaving the Chair, having been put— Sir it. WILSON said he would take that opportunity of requesting some information from the Right Ilon. Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, upon a subject of the greatest importance to the honour and interests of the country. It would be remembered that he put a question to the Right Hon. Gentleman lust year, as to when the French army would evacuate the fortresses they occupied in the Spanish territory. The answer he received was, that the French troops were ex pected to retire considerably before the evacuation of Naples by the Austrians. Now, as this had not proved to be the case, ' he trusted the Right lion. Gentleman would tell him whether it was in the knowledge of the Government that any definitive arrangement had been &eine to, as to the perital at which the fortresses of Spain were to be evacuated, and particularly that of Cadiz. Mr. Secretary CANNING said he would give all the infor. Illation in his power, but without going into the general 'wild cal considerations connected with the subject. He had not the least difficulty in assuring the Hon. Member that he could not be more anxious thr thu withdrawal of the French troops from Spain than (as he was perfectly persuaded) the French Govern ment were themselves. As to the precise moment at which it would take place, he could not undertake to say. It had cer tainly happened that arrangements had been made for it twice, when some miserable paltry attack again threw them buck.— It was therefore the titult of those who made such insensible, paltry, unprofitable attacks, that no further steps had been taken. Ile was confidently persuaded that the French Govern ment were as anxious as the lion. Gentleman could be, to have their troops out of Spain. SUPPLY. The House then went into a Committee of Supply. , Mr. HERMES moved a vote of 420,000/. for the charge of the Army EXtraiirdinaries of the year. Mr. HUME: said,' that part of this sum went to the sup. port of those Colonies on the Gold Coast where there had been war, of which parliament had never received the least infor mation•either. as'to its cause or Its - result. Thousands of lives had been lost, and great sums of money expended, and when that was the case, he thought thellouse ought to pause before. they grunted more, in the absence of information. lie should bike every opportunity of opposing the keeping up of thetie • Colonies, and he therefore could not consent to expend money,. in building churches and other establishments, us if it was in. tended to hold permanent possession of the place. There were some items in the estimate 'which required explanation.. here was a charge of 14,0004 for the conveyance of specie. Upwards of 1;1001. was to be given to Captain Hope of the Brisk, for carrying a quantity of silver to Ireland. lie did nut know why a Captain of the Navy should he paid this additional sum for his service, performed.in a King's ship. He did not see why the specie might not hav e been carri e d by waggon. He thought it might have been sent by the usual conveyances without in. curring this extra charge. Upon the whole he was ready to admit that this was the must satisfactory estimate that be had ever seen in that House. ..... ES said, that the explanation he could give to the Honourable Member would rather add to his satisfaction than diminish it. Several of the items occurred here, because they could not be estimated in time for the Army Estimates. The charge for the conveyance of specie was an old established usage, and formed a pa r t o f t h e remunerat i on o f t h e serv i ce. But ie lion. Member did not perhaps know that the sum puid was not only for the service of carrying the specie, but for the risk which the officer took upon himself. It lately happened that by some accident a deficiency was found upon a quan tity of specie at the end of the voyage, and the officer wits obliged to account for it. The charge was, theirefore, a kind of insurance, as well as a remuneration, for the service per. formed. Sir R. AVILSON observed, that in the treaty lately con cluded with the Brazils for abolishing the slave trade on the coast of Africa at the end of four years, he saw no article for regulating the number of slaves to be Wood on board one vessel during that limited existence of the traffic. Whoever was acquainted with the horrible situation of the unfortunate creatures who were crowded Into those vessels, so as to occa sion great loss of life and indescribable sufferiug, would feel the necessity of some arrangement In this respect, and he hoped for the sake of huthanity that it would receive the consideration of Government. The resolution was agreed to. • The next was for a sum of 300,76111. to defray the charge of the commissariat Department. • Mr. H UME sa►d, that last year this Estimate was 369,0001., the year beflire 340,0001., and the year before that IKON/. Thus they were returning in this department tia well as in the Army Estimates generally, to war expences rather than those which should exist in a time of peace. He also complained of the increase of the number of Commissaries in the Cimadas, and said that there were too many in the Colonies generally. In Ireland he saw there was u department of waggoners, which he was informed was quite useless. He wished to know what these waggoners were. Mr. DERR LES said that the difference in the Estimate from that of last year, arose from the diffilence in the price of pro. visions at the time when the last Estimate was made. It would be recollected that at the latter part of the last year there was a considerable rise in the price of bread, meat, and forage finr the troops at home. This had made the expenditure exceed the estimate of the year. The present estimate had not been made upon the supposition that the high prices would continue through the year, but upon the actual expenditure of the year past.— With respect to the Commissariat department, he could speak from experience in his own person, having paid much attention to the subject, and he assured the House that nothing could be more unwise than a reduction of the number of Commissaries. It was true that the number had been reduced in Canada last year by the Treasury, but representations from the GovernorS of forts, and from all those beat calculated to judge of such mat ters, had induced them to restore the former number. In Ca nada there were many' out stations where stores and money required to he taken care of, and the expenee of Commissaries was more than covered by the exercise of their duties. The number of these Gentlemen at' Sierra Leone was increased by a most lamentable cause. ".Ntf . Gentleman could be there ibr more than two months without .being disabled from service by illness; it was therefore necessary that two should be em ployed. Mr. T. - HUTCHINSON'tiaid that the House had just now heard from the HOn. Secretary to the Treasury, that no Gentle man could remain two months in the Colony of Sierra Leone without being exposed to illness which rendered him incapable of service, and in all probability to the loss of life. 'What, then, could be. the infatuation which led his Majesty's Ministers to keep up an establishment at such an expence of human life. He knew not how they could answer it to their country and their God ; and lie solemnly appealed to them either to say they meant to abandon it, or to state the reasons why it ought to be held. Mr. W. HOrtTON said, that th e H on . G ent l eman seemed to suppose the Government to have preserved this colony for the mere abstract love of colonies. But the Hon. Gentleman must be aware that there existed a solemn compact on the minor Par liament, to retain it for the propose of carrying the great mea sure of abolition into effect. There were at this time 18,000 li berated slaves at Sierra Leona, who must all be abandoned with the colony. He admitted that the question was one which re quired serious consideration, but they must look at all the facts connected with it, and not at detached parts. A commission had been sent out for the purpose oe collecting full information, and when their report was before the House, they should be able to come to a decision. At all events, there could be no sudden abandonment of a Colony established under such circumstances and for such a purpose. Mr. BERNAL thought the Colony might have been esta blished in a better situation on the coast. He regretted that the House had not an opportunity of discussing so important a question upon some other occasion than an estimate for the al lowance to the Governor and. Officers of the Colony. That question would embrace two considerations ;—first, whether they ought to preserve any station at all upon the Gold Coast ; and, secondly, whether Sierra Leone was the best situation for it. Ile was a sincere abolitionist, he feared that this enormous annual expence, and constant drain of' human blood, were crificed without producing any proportionate effect in prevent. ing the traffic in ; slaves. Ile apealed to the Right Hon. Secre tary for Foreign Affairs, whether there was not now an accumu talon of acts of horror and aggression carried on upon those co a sby the ships of other nations. lie trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman would have the kindness and the condescension to state, at his request, whether repeated applications and remon strances had hot been made to the Court of France upon this subject, without producing any satisfactory result. Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that in answering the ap peal of the Hon. Gentlem a n, h e must confess that all he had stated as to the difficulty of getting other rowers to co-operate in the abolition of the Slave Trade was certainly true up to a late period. But the French Government had, within a short time, shewn itself disposed to act with sincerity in carrying it into effect. There was one practical instance of such a dispo sition, which he would mention to the House. Information having been riven to the Government of France that a slave ship was fitting out in the port of Nantz, it was seized and condemned. This was 'ratifying, because the fact could no longer he denied that the subjects of France were engaged in the traffic. And as they had at laSt seized a ship of their own, such a conviction would not only he created in the minds o'l that. Government, but their attention would be awakesied to similar conduct on the part of the subjects of other States. He bad also to mention that they had at last obtained an order from the Spanish Government to the Governor-General of Cuba, which, if executed, would have a most beneficial influence.— He could only say that they had with difficulty obtained the order, and that if' carried into execution it must check the , oc currence of those scenes of horror upon the coas t o f Af r i ca which they so anxiously desired to suppress. Mr. EVANS said a few words; in the course of which he alluded to the great waste of life which took pl a ce in our C o l on i es . Mr. 11UA1 P.: said, that the establishment of a Colony at Sierra Leone had utterly failed as to.the benevolent object of extend ing civilization in - Africa. That Colony had cost the Nation 1,1100,0001. without, effecting the purpose for which it wax de sighed, or being able t o p ro d uce C o l on i a l art i c l es enough for its own consuniption. Mr. EVANS said that the first thing to be done VlOB to put an end to the existence of shivery. •• - Mr. w.nowroN would admit that no civilization could be effected in Africa until the Slave Trade was entirely sup pressed. Mr. ,SYKES lamented the large expenditure of human life in Sierra Leone ; but yet it was not greater than in other places. In the West Indies, for instance, halfol our soldiers and officers toationed there died within the short space of a single year, and there was no articular lamentation then. Mr. C. WILSON made a few observations as to the efforts which had been made to impress the first rudiments of Mr. HUM inquired, whether it was Intended to keep up the Waggon Corps in Ireland, which he looked upon to be quite useless;. MY. W. HORTON said that the corps was necessary, as contracts were not so easily managed in Ireland as in this coup , try, and the Commissariat were obliged to do much for them selves. A Waggon Corps was therefbre indispensable for the conveyance of m►litary stores, specie, and•such other matters.— The corps, however, was now considerably reduced. • The Vote was then put and carried. Upon the Vote for 21,000/. to make good the deficiency of the• Fee Fund in the department of his Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, Mr. II 01111: asked why there was so great an.increase in the Colonial expellee. Mr. W. HORTON said that it arose from an increase in the business of the Colonial department, which rendered it neces. silty to employ additional assistants; among others two Under. Secretaries and . five Clerks. 111r.11UAIE further inquired as to the law-expences of that department, and the mode of paying the Colonial C ounse l. Mr. W. HORTON said, that the emoluments of Mr. Ste. phen, the Colonial Counsel, originally consisted in fees, chiefly those paid for drawing Colonial Acts. Those fees were now abolished, and a salary of 1,500/. a-year substituted, as Mr. Stephen's entire time was occupied in the Colonial business, to the exclusion of all other practice. Mr. HUM E said, that Ministers occasioned the encreased business in the Colonial Department by sending out Governors to the Cape of Good Hope, who outragetl the feelings of the people. Lengthened correspondences consequently became ne cessary, which, of course, gave additional employment to Go. vernment. They ought to he aware t h at the frequent corn. plaints which arrived. resulted from actual oppression, and the most direct and simple mode of relief would be to recal the Go vernor. H e attributed the encrease particularly to the Colonial Secretary. Mr. W. HORTON said that nothing could be more easy for the Hon. Gentleman than to make such an assertion, and it was equally easy' for him (Mr. W. Horton) to say that there was no truth whatsoever in it. As to his plan for turning oft' every Governor of whom the Colonist complained, however popular it be, it certainly was not right. Ought a public functionary to be removed from his office before the charges against him had been heard and proved ?—(llear, hear, hear t)—Th ere were no fewer than $4 Colonies, and could it be expected that in so great u number such a Utopian system should prevail as to preclude all complaints? He had never heard the lion. Gen. deman meet a question in a statesmanlike manner, nor do any thing but blame Ministers for their acts. The lion. Gentleman himself had in the course of one year occasioned an expence of 40001, by requiring returns of papers relating to Colonial riff:iirs. It was indeed but fair that Parliament should demand information, but then expenses must necessarily follow and be allowed for it: Mr. HUM said, that he had for five years been t ry i ng to procure relief for the lonian Islands f but the Col on i a l G overn. meat took the port of G over nors against the people. Mr. Secretary CANNING thought that if the ch aracter of a Governor were to be s lu rre d by removal upon un unproved charge, which lie could have no opportunity of refuting for two years, it Would' discourage any lion. Gentlemen from under. taking the duty. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen did not re. but the charge of making sweeping accusations, for he had just repeated One against Government. The Vote was then put and carried. On the Vot e for 5,6751. as Compensation to Commission ers Appointed to inquire into the collection and management of the Revenue in Ireland. Mr. HUN! E inquired how long that Commission 'was to exist. Mr. JIMMIES said that it was limited by Act of Parliament to one year lon g er. Sir J. NEWPORT eulogized the acts and objects of the Commission. The vote being put for 20,000/. to defray the expence of the Penitentiary at Milbank, Sir G. W. COCKBURN compleined of the severity which prevailed in that establishment. Mr. HOLFORD said, that if the lion. Member had visited the establishment he would think otherwise. There was nothing like solitary confinement there, the prisoners being, bought out for the benefit of air and exercise four tittlesAday. Sir G. W. COCKBURN said that if so t< reform must have taken place in the system, for wheribe last visited the Peniten • dory, the prisoners were not brought out more than twice a day, and even than they had not the tree enjoyment of exercise, for they were led round in a ring. Mr. HOLFORD would admit the Hen. Member to be so fa tight, .`ta c t 4 cons i derable relaxat i on of diScipline had been in troduced. Mr. HUME thought the expellee tillmVed fOr superintendance ,very great.. . • Mr. HOLrORD said, that 1119404 the .prisopers were few, the number of officers was complete, and it was impossible to reduce the salaries at which they- had been engaged. The Resolution being proposettfor 15,1204 for relief to Tou lonese and Corsican Emigrants, ,Dutch Naval Officers) St. Domingo sufferers, and others; Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that such annuitants never died. In certain. annuities in Ireland, the name of Sir John Mooie was folind a'year and a half after the battle of Corunna. He did not oppose the claim of the annuitants, but he thought it right to take care that the money voted f or their use did not go into the pockets of others. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that Public Annuitants were proverbially long lived. However, in the present case, 50 had gone off last year, and the remainder were considerably advanced in a green old age. They had a claim on the gratitude and justice of this country for the services which they had rendered. Sir J. ItiEWPORT admitted their deserts: he only hoped that care would. he taken in' the distribution of the money. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured him that the money would not be diverted to an improper purpose. Colonel DAVIES said that those persons, having fought the battles of the Bourbons, ought to have been maintained at the charge of Louis XVIII. He did not care how long they en joyed a green old age. On the Vote for 3,0001. in aid of the National Vaccine Esta blishment, Mr. HUME said, that this was the only establishment in which gentlemen of fortune and respectability, accepted salaries. Mr. PEEL said, that the number of physicians had been reduced from eight to five, on the suggestion which the Hon. Gentleman made last year. Five now received each 1001. per annum. He differed from the Hon. Gentleman as to the propriety of their pay, and Sutgeons for their attendance.— Some of. them, he knew,' would very gladly resign both their salary and situation. Vaccine Inoculation was very important, as tending at least to mitigate 'the ravages of the Small Pox, A great prejudice h a d b ee n exc it e d against it in the public mind, because Ladies and other un s kilful persons undertook to inoculate. Another Establishment for Vaccination had been broken up this year, and convinced of the importance of its object, he gave the 3001. which had been saved out of the ex pences of the National Establishment, to replace the voluntary one; 100/. was allowed for the supply of proper lymph, and 2001. more to remunerate six or seven qualified persons for their trou We. The other Estimates were then agreed to, the House re. sumed, and the deport was ordered to be received on Monday. - MUTINY BILL. - Lord PALMERSTON moved the Order of the Day for going into a Committee on the Mutiny Bill. The House ac cordingly went into a Committee upon the Bill. The Noble Lord then moved the addition of two clauses to the Bill. The first prohibited the billeting of soldiers upon the accredited Consuls of Foreign Powers residing in our seaports. This, he said, was due to .them - as a reciprocal favour, for our Consuls were similarly exempted in foreign countries. The second clause went to amend a part of the Game Laws, by which a military officer was fineable in the sum of Id. fur shooting on n manor without the consent of the Lord, while a soldier committing the same act, was not himself punishable, but a fine of 2/. was to be levied on the Colonel of his re giment. Mr. HUME observed, that the words occuring in on one of the clauses, namely, "all Negroes purchased by his Majesty," would lead one to imagine that the slave trade was permitted by Act of Parliament. Lord PALMERSTON said that there were Black Regi ments in the West Indies, the men of which were purchased, and on being so purchased became free. Mr. HUME inquired how many Negroes were purchased, last year. Lord PALMERSTON answered that the lion. Member himself had voted for the enlistment of Black Regiments. The first clause was then read a first time. Mr. HUME said that there were many complaints against the system of billetting soldiers in the neighbourhood of bar racks. When the people paid the expence of barracks, he thought they ought to be saved the trouble and inconvenience of entertaining soldiers. He had a letter from one who lately lost 141. ss. within a short tune by the number of soldiers who were billeted upon him. Lord PALMERSTON said that barracks were generally pre ferred for the reception of soldiers, but when they were occu pied or out of order it became necessary to billet soldiers upon innkeepers. It was a burthen, subject to which the latter un dertook their business. Mr. II UM El ,:aid that innkeepers paid tuxes as well as other people, and therefore ought not to be subjected to extraordinary annoyance. Tlie second clause havin been read a first time, MH r. UM said, he s hould bring up a clause to put an end to the practice of flogging soldiers. lie was not surprised that soldiers brought up as they were, in the habit of seeing their fellow creatures flogged and degraded, became hardened and the worst of men. lie knew it had been said that the pu nishment,of flogging could not be dispensed with ; but from what he had heard of foreign service, he was convinced it might be done away. ' In Wurtemburg flogging was some time ago carried on to the utmost extent ; but it had been d o ne a w a y with. The men, by t h e practice of' flogging, were hardened; but the moment an end was put to the lasts they became emulous to avoid punishment, and the service was better pertimmed than before. There were gradations of disgrace in Wurtemburg,wh ich had proved sufficient to carry on the service witla•tt flogging. That very circumstance Was enough to induce Parliament to eh, away. with flogging. They were to l d i n the Colonies that the lash should not be a stimulus to labour, then, why say sol diers must be impelled to duty by the lash ? He wished to try what could be done without flogging. The time of peace was the time to try the experiment. lie wax satisfied from the course adopted with respect to the East and West Indies, that every thing calculated to irritate the feeling's of individ ua l s , s h ould be avoided. Flogging soldiers and flogging slaves should he abolished. The lion. Member concluded by proposing two clause " And be it further enacted, that from anti after the passing of this Act it shall not be lawful to inflict the punishment of the lash, or flogging, on any soldier serving in the army in time of peace." Secondly, "Be it further enacted, that any soldier being guilty of any serious offence, arid being convicted of' the same by a Court Martial, it shall be lawful for his Majesty to transfer the service of the said person so con victed, to any of the Colonies," &c.—(Here the lion. Member was informed from the Ministerial of the House, that his second clause was useless, as the object the lion. Member had in view was sanctioned by the law.] Mi. HUME, in continuation, said, he should not of course move it, if such a clause were unnecessary. lie then begged leave to call the a tt en ti on o f t h e H ouse to what h a d b een done in America. The practice of flogging bad prevailed in the United States to a late period, but during the whole of the war in 1812, it was abolished. The Hon. Membafrread the Act of Congress, which abolished strii rem and flogging in the army, and concluded by moving his clause. Mr. JOHN SMITH said, he did not consider this a conve nient moment to bring on such a question. lie thought it would have been better introduced in the presence of the Honourable Baronet, to whom they were indebted for reform in the odious practice alluded to by the Hon. Member for Aloptrose The practice of flogging had been done away on the Continent, and it might be said kangland alone was the country where the tor ment of flogging was continued. An officer whom he knew had gradually abolished flogging in his troop. Military officers all allowed that a man who was brought to the halberts once was likely to be brought there a second time. It had not the effect of producing reform, and if so, what use was it? All who examined the present of Europe knew there had been an ahandomrient of torture. Would any man in France at the present day support the punishment inflicted on'a Damien* or Ravillac? They would not. The punishment of whip ►ping at the cart in England had lat e ly exc i te d compass i on ' an d disgust. Military men had not agr ee d up on t h e necess i t y o f inflicting the punishment of flogging. It was u fact that since flogging had been less in the limy the men had been better in their general conduct. He did not consider it a question for discus sion on reading the Mutiny Bill. He thought it ought to be the subject of a speci fi c motion. He should however support the proposition of the Hon. Member for Montrose. Sir R. FERGUSON also objected to the introduction of the question on that occasion. Sir JOtiggliViiiiiiS—" Having the honour to belong to his Majesty's Military Service, and having in a course of years had many opportunities to ob i serve the effects of discipline in the army, I shall trouble the House with a few observations only, in order to justify the vote I shall give upon the present occasion. I have afforded much consideration to this subject, and the more I think upon It the more fortified am I in the judgment I have formed, and in the correctness of the support I gave this question, when at a former period th e H onoura b le Illember for Montrose divided the House upon it. It is my opinion, Sir, that flogging in the army is an i mproper punish. meet, and iet it out; it to be abolished; it is improper, becatue the essence of a soldier being his honour, when th a t i s ta i nted he becomes degraded in his own estimation, and consequently is incapable of heroic feelings; and it rarely answers the end for which it is inflicted, that of improving the conduct of the offen der : it rather renders him desperate and callous, when he is sensible that his shame cannot be wiped away, but that he will carry an indelible mark of it on his person to the grave. Sir. i n all my experience I have never known a soldiers morals to be mended by the infliction of the corporal punishment of the cat o'nine.tails. I say, Sir the argum ents o f t h ose who advocate this punishment are fallacious. Allowing, as every one must, that no one is worthy to be a soldier who knows what fear is, they endeavour to teach him this degrading feeling by holding over him the punishment of the whip to deter him from the commission of unsoldierlike conduct. Sir, jibe does not do his duty but from the fear of the whip, he is unworthy of his post, In these enlightenedAnys, it is Ant ash was in early times, the army is no longer recruited from. the gaols—the acquitted felon is no longer received ; 'the recruit, who is considered fit for no respectable employment, the Man who is looked upon but as an outcast from society, yet fit to recruit the ranks of the army is no longer admitted, but in his stead is received the man who has no blot in his character. It is not for me to eulogise an army, whose valiant and heroic deeds spoke for themselves, and who led on by able and experienced Generals, and fostered by the care of a Royal Duke, who knows no other motive, and who acts upon no other principle than that of consulting the good of the service, whose heroic deeds, I say, have purchased the pre sent peace of the world. I ask, therefore, Sir, for this me ritorious army that boon which they are entitled to receive—l ask for them an exclusion of that clause from the Mutiny Bill, which authorises the punishment of flogging. lam aware, Sir, that, as an humble individual, it is presumptuous in me to set my opinion In opposition to those who will support this clause, and who are more competent to form a better Judgment ; but Sir, though the advocate is humble, the cause is, in my opi nion, just. I trust, therefore, the Hon. House will not suffer it to fail, through the inadequacy of the advocate, but that they will grant the boon I pray for, and give their support to the Amendment of the Hon. Member. General MURRAY said there was no class of men more alive to humanity than Officers in the Army, It was natural to man and pleasing to his nature, to have feelings of compassion, but it was one thing to feel, and another to legislate upon feelings' He knew of no armies ancient or modern which has been with out severe punishment. The punishment in the British Army, was common in the Roman Army. But that was not the only thing in which they resembled the Roman Army. They re sembled it in courage and glory. It had been said the punish ment had been abolished in America. The Gallant Officer could not admit that America had an army. With respect to France be could not admit that the argument of the Hon. Alm' ber applied. The punishment was severe in the French army. Having received a statement of the military punishments upon the Continent from an officer in Germany, the Gallant General read the document to the House. Previous to the existence of the present Articles of War in Prussia, the punishment of the cane was universal. An alteration had taken place. The whole of the Prussian army was divided into two classes. Every soldier entering the army belongs to the first class, and is Os cmpt from c3rporeal punishment; but if he does not behave well he is transferred to the second class, and becomes liable to corporal punishment—that punishment is the cane. The House should know that the latter punishment was never public. Would the Honourable Member sanction in the armya tha t secret punishment which savoured so much of the Inquisition ? They had also other modes of punishment. In solitary con finement the soldier never could lie down. They had also a stoppage of rations, and a punishment under which the soldier stood with his face to a tree or some other object, for a nunit of hours. That was the punishment in the Prussian Army. The practice in the Saxon Army was this:--Death was inflicted b y shooting, and a disgrace was attached by delivering the body to the hangman to be stretched on the rack. The second pu nishment was laying a man in forty-two pou nds of iron ; b, was confined in a fortress, and there made to work upon bre a d and water. The Honourable Member had alluded to the abolition of flogging in Wurtem berg. The punishment ofclor solitary confinement was resorted to as in Saxony, but th e , *Dinah who underwent that punishment must be in a hen sate. They were placed in a dark cell withoutbedding• They were fastened to the wall, and their bodies confined In a bent position. This punishment was for six or eight months au_ ration. The Gallant General mentioned these punishments t° show there had been no abandonm en t of torture in the Conti nental nental armies. The discipline of the Hanoverian talnY.T: been changed. After the re-occupation of Hanover in lgto the Duke of Cambridge abolished the punishment of the cane and sabre, and substituted a modification of' the English flogging. The mimber of lashes was limited to 300. Ganes W ere to be tried by a Court Martial. Punishments in Hanover he r on the return of the Duke of Cambridge had been inflicted wit hou t a Court Martial. It had been suggested hy the finnet trl l o ,.. Gentleman who moved the clause, that the punishment o f fl of;' gin should be confined to the Colonies. That was a sys tem which he should always oppose. There was nothing re induced the British soldier to go to all parts of the Globe, Ma u that the knowledge that he should be treated abroad as he be at home. The British soldier was not only to prepar e ' face death in the field but to go to every clime and eenn tr Yr e The duty of the British service was not confined to the Isla' e. The arms of Great Britain extended to Asia, Africa, and 11 .„ /13 d. rica. Her empire was •in all parts of the globe. The an l jt ment proposed by the Hon. 1%l ember was said to be a boon. army' was no boon. Discipline was the heart and soul of 0 , 11 and if the clause was agreed to, it would be di ffi cult to p e ? ,„ systemere serve discipline. He might ask from whence this booll„c a d — e ,, as lie had seen the arm which gave it stretched out to hew' d ter the soldier, to cut down the veteran establishment prePa re sec ti the soldier when he returned in want of assistence:, aar aed gifts reminded him of the caution with w hi c h l ato con the muni fi cence of the * enemies of Troy, when he ese'"' — " Timeo DEIIIOO.I et donnprentes." Mr. .1. SMITH explained. cars Sir R. WILSON said, he h a d ma i nta i ne d for Man): Y. however, to be continued in E ng l an d , notwithstanding es, that this punishment of floggin g oug h t to b e a boll. heti' It o in been abolished all over the w or ld. I t was n ot in existe n ce to te France; it had been abolished i n H o ll a nd without inju.!ste the F ra nce. he Honourable Gfintleman said there slur ?11101. of life in They had an instance in which thf c own , Army maintained discipline which never "3 in invasion he alluded to the last invasioa of Spain, an d t Gentleman told thew. the Romans punished by flogging, the punishment of flogging was never resorted to. drew the inference that British and Roman courag e drawn from that source. He denied that inferenacse. th riro. murder was committed by a slave,. so severe were executed. man law that all the slaves guilty or innocent, w In one instance 640 slaves were executed for a murder coo. ted by one. It was absurd theretbre to cite the Roman F..% 3 ments. The punishment of flogging kept out of thearV ea class of valuable persons. Many farmers' servants wo u ld into the Army, if it were not for the dread of being "' sh t bc• to ti his T . t i l i e Heil; for lite. It was a terrible punishment, but lie objected cause it degraded the morals of the man, and destroyed. energies. if it could not be abolished, he wished to see, lt he a it gated. If the punishment was to be inflicted, lie wis might be only on men who were unworthy of t he service. t he Air. W. SMITH did not consider this a proper time forte discussion of a question of so much importance, but h e „a l e principally to allude to the speech of the Gallant Genern; o f spoke second on the subject. It was clear, from the finur wit s the statement respecting foreign punishment, that ther e l o g one general endeavour on the Continent to avoid Asp soldiers. eresohadluion. commanded a oh 0 did e l? it,A JOHNSONKEs u p ported r said,t e the h • t 'linen which corporal punishment had been much in use. •"„ c ,, •• not resort to it, because he found it unnecessary. It was 7fi" w rs ' to flog a man to make him worse.ce e thought would have command of themselves, there w o uld bo no sion for corporal_punishm en t. r the Lord PALMERSTON sa id, t h e ma i n ques tion beAar e o pt House was, whether the Mutiny Bill should pass prepared to contend th a t thi s pun i s h ment was n ot 0w,,,0c" -- idie. 1 t might harden rath e r th an rec l a i m t h e offender. n e ,-;icbt tion of punishment, a tt en ded b y ignominy an d exposure, have a tendency to m a k e men worse. When he adla itte ' t t he much, every one would admit that if he did nut oar ed w ith Honourable Gentleman's motion, be was not enem Be the punishment which was the subject of discussion • taken thought, however, the service required it, 'and if it wer h u ing in away, much injury might be done. There was some t ""t o wo. the_ peculiar composition of an army which required severeu —History proved th a t a ll armies had been subject to P 7 0 . ment for crimes. I t was not i mportant w hi c h way care:Ores nishment was inflicted: whether by the stick, whi p . Via it was the sam e . Th e app li cat i on occasioned bodily it e s Commander.in.Chief had endeavoured to dispense with fop , much as possible. Whenever it was found by the retora tt oo p. regiments that corporal punishments were inflicted to a S derable extent, it was considered that the officer of the regin74 was not doing his duty.—(Hear I)—An arrangement hit•er Army had tended to diminish many of the offences which re . quired corporal punishment. The men were supplied with ama i n _ e sums daily, which was enough to furnish them with neceofin, for their mess, but not enough to afford them the inetint.. ° l 4 lo l toxication. The line of argument taken by his Hon. : 3h ,, the gallant General was quite correct. From the general,., racier of the British Army it must contain a number o u t ' et ions whom it was difficult to controul, and ther„CN'oble were obliged to keep up a mode of punislinaent. 4 .jorent*. Lord could not with safety give up that mode of pypi, is son. Sir R. FERGUSON said, those documents swhica " h itrtri Friend had produced, contained a series of tlie most ss punishments he had ever heard of. One of them con.msr roo m his Hon. Friend stated, inputting the prisoner into a a,al' assi ne by himself, and chaining him to the wall. This lie coo h ai men tia the House, did not exist in the whole system 01. Pu ll h is , - t er sta te England. He thanked God, that the army was In a we" attached t° of discipline than when he had the honour of being in ooaf% it, and there was less need of corporal punishment. Ho w ool severaihe might say of the finest regiments in which the . . nd die of flogging h a d b een d one away w ith almost entirely' need conclusion he h a d d rawn front this, was that there was h ", w ould of it. lie would not detain the House any longer, b ut certainly vote with his Hon. Friend. s en) 'eye% General TOWNSJIEND stated that he had alwaY ikr iny,bl the charact er o f b e i ng as humane as Any Officer in tll o e use* would go further and add us any man, but he had w i ad alwor s corporal punishment, • though ,sparingly, and lie.!' that mightcontinue the same being governed by the necessity of Whol+' call for its use. Several Honourable Nen - there, so"' •