The Sun. — London, England, 1808-05-12 00:00:00

\ J Mr SPIP.II - CER STANUOPE eon 'MIA:led the .Welt Von. Gentleman for the . great pains be Ilad taken. upon Ibis subject, but was arraid that his ,regulations would do little fur the lower classes of persoucliable to the abuses complained of.. The-tich.were able to take 'care of thetnselves, but if the poor were only left to their aelion; he feared they would not derive any benefit fromthe regulations proposed. "Mr. W. SISI I -111 concurred in the sentiments of his lion. Friend, and considered the. recovery bf the pe hillty by arraEtion in 'a _Court _of • Law, as a mere hoWpkfidinen, so .far as the poor ,were considered. Eut, as he should have other opportunities of stating his sentiments upon this sobje% he should abstain' trom further observations upon it, The CHANCELLOR' of , the EXCHEaUER replied , . that the Bill, by giving with the option of a penalty . of 1001. or, three times the sum surcharged, not only the costs, as between party, but also the whole coAts out of pocket, placed the pauper in the situa tion of the opulent man. if he could satisfy his At. torney that the surcharge of which he complained 1;1;4 vexations, he would be at,no loss for one to con duct the action with such a certainty of full.remu. neration.—Leave was given to bring in the JAIII. • Pktvli.EGE: Sir FRANCIS BURIUtTT had waited till he saw the House • its a sufficient state of attendance, before be • stated how he was circumstanced with resped to a trensatlioo which, in his view of it, involved a breach of the privilege of that House. -.lt would be necessary for him, in order to explain the situation in which he stood, to state to the House a transaCtion •Which had taken place in one of the Courts below. It was well known, that at the List EleCtion for the City 9f Westminster, the,Eletiors had nominated him as one of the Candidltca without his knowing any . thing of the fad ; and it wets only towards the close of. the ii;leCtion that, he was Made acquainted with The Eleaors . claimed to be exempt from paying any pelt of the expence of thai elelion, and the,High Bailiff of Westminster bad brought an scion against him, as one .of the Candidates, to re cover a proportion of the 'expense of taking the election. Though there wa's no law to authorise such a,demanci( nor any custorw to the pranice, though it was well known that he had not talcemany share or portion in the cendnel or direction of that election, yet without any proof of the.existence of law or custom to sata 4 .tion the demand, the Learn ed Judge in the Court below had thought • proper to direa the Jury to find a verdiet against hip), merely because he had taken his seat. This was the reason delivered by that Learned Judie to the :Tory, why he had incurred the 'expeuces for which the action was brought. Now as to his •taking his seat, that. was not: voluntary on his part, as he had clone it in cons- e pliauce with the writ,, and any individual who -May eletied was..compellable to, attend mid do his duty in that. House. Yet the Learned- , Judge bad held that the circumstance of his having taken his seat had rendered him liable to expenses incurred inn taking the, electron. He was . yet to learn what benefit it was to,an individual to sit in that. House, it he came there . to discharge his duty with in tegrity ; and he was therefore surprised to hear any Learned Judge say, accordingto the law, as it is at present, that- a seat in that House /was any other than a beirthen upon the individual eleacd to that s mation. He was not, however, surprised to find that LeSinedJudge consider a twat in that House a benefit, as it was to him a stepping stone to the Bench. But had not expetiled thet' Judge upon the, Bench u (mid lay it down, that 14 individual for yielding obedience .. to the writ, had incurred a penalty for doing what, if' he had trot dime, would have made him liable to the censure , a that House, person who hada duty imposed upon him ought to he suf fered to do it without let or impediment; but this • was an involuntary a4l npon his, part, and ought not, according to any constitutional law, and he, a l ey e a th a t. all . s uelf law wa‘not altogether forgot ten, w sublet him. to any such .penally: It was said in Lord- Raymond's Ileparts,.. that Judges did not understand the laws of Parlianient.— The matter was of small moment tohim, it was even an ()bra of perfelit indifference, but it was-of material importance to the 141e6lors of Westminster, and to the Privileges of that House. He 'did ,not make it a subjea of complaint. • What be mention ed the transaaion for was, to know whether he was to comply with the demand that would be made upon him, in consequence of the .decision•of the C'ourt beloW. He applied but for the advice of the House, in order, that, by his . silently submitting to that decision, the Privilege of that House should 'not refer any breach in his-person.' The CHANcri-LOR of 'the Excartairea did not know hoW to address the House on this occasion ; indeed, he felt he shOuld apologize fqr offering hirtl self, as there wits no motion betore them. He trust ed, however, that the House would allow him to hates what occurred to him in the vieW be at present had of the case; and from every attention that be cUuld give to the statement of the Hon. Baronet, it did not appear to him to be a ease in wt ich the House could interfere. If the Hon. .Baronet' was right its his conception of the law respeolltig the mis alretaion of the Learned Judge, he bad been v er y ill'advised by his Couusei, not to apply for a review of the whole case, by a motion fora new trial, or by a bill of exceptions.' As be apprehended the case, the ;Aaiun Lad been -brought against the Hon, Bart. tor the use which ho or .tosageots had.made of cer tain erationsfor 'hustings, and UK:46e went to. be decided upon to Jury. The direaion of the Judge night be right or might be svroog, hot in either the that House Was nor the proper tribunal in which. to have the proceedings of ;Ate Court below reviewed. The course of praCtice. in the adminiStratioo of b o y, was•in such cases either to proceed by motion to the Court oot-of which the record issued for e new t or by a bill of exceptions ; and if either of these had heep resorted tri.,by the litire.liarotacL and not been there would be no relief ti)t , him. It was not for htm to say whether or not the direftion of tic LeariCed Judge wocorreet ; but The Jury had no doubt decided upon .the evidence -produced to them of throw made of the ereatioua by the dents of the Hon, Bart. That Wes hiS Vie..v of thermbjea ; but it would remain for the Hon. Bart. to:decide what course he should pursue eto attain any ehjea he may Lave in eentemplistinie. 11r. CURIVELS vindicated the Learned Judge from he i mpel: o o u of having obtained his prcient exalt ed station by,any party services, and contended - that his elevation was altogether owing to 'his trans cendent talents, as an abler or more upright, Judge had never sat upon the Bench. The SpgAnErt did tint know . but he was bound, upon an application of this description to the House, to state what occurred to him upon the sub je&. Undoubtedly, as he understood the., matter, the Honourable - Alember li,ui oftered himself to the House with lerfe& regularity, on a transaaion, which appeared to him to amount to a 'breach of their privileges: The Hon. hart. in taking 'this Course'had done his duty, and it was ; ri'grave clues tionhe had SubMitted to their' consideration, so,lar aq it regarded a breach of the privileges for that HouSo,. and atteaed the diameter eminent person in a high judicial office. If he had had any notice of such an application, if he had but the slightest' inti mation of the intention of the Hoo.:Baronet, he would have endeavoured to be better . prSpared to,oll tisfy his inquiry. At present he had to apologise to the House, if he should not beable to give that sa. - - tisfaaion which on such a question was to be desir . ed. '1 h HotiSe could not be prepared in this in stance to give advice to the Hotakaronet. What he would recommend was, that he should wait till some practical consequence should result from the' decision of the Court below, and if he should con, ceive that consequence to be a breach of the privi lege of the House, he could 114 sou 80 4 611 bring it under the view of the House, nor could' the House too soon proceed to take it into consideration. After' a few words from Sir fuANOri disclaiming the 'having brought the queitior' lot ward as a complaint, his objea haYing been, to obtain ad vice from the House, - Ow .matter was allowed to rest there. • DOCTOR DM ENAN. Mr. &tuftAm, in rising to make the motion, of which he had given notice, on the appointment at Dodor Patrick Duigenan to be one of his Majesty's most Honourable Privy Council for 'lreland, dis claimed *being aauated in the• slightest degree by personal or party motives. He was aware how humble an individual be was,: but the mallet on which he had to move the House, was of such magnitude as to make good thei,A4piency in point of importance tinder which the advocate laboured. He addressed the tionse in the full convi6tion that if the motion he had to oiler should' be received in . the manner he . wished and hoped, it would have great effed in 'allaying_ the irritation produced 'by a recent vote •of that Home (the curtailment ssi the allowari6.: to Maynooth College). The (hint; itself to which he had to call the attention of the I-louse was of little magnitude ; but its influence on tile' feelings of the Catholics was great, and greater hi proportion as it was found that they were irritated with so little hesitation for a purpose of sach trifling moment; If the Right Hon. Gentleman' opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) wished not .to considered as regarding the Catholics of Ireland as his enemies, nor to be regarded as an enemy by them, he would pause before he would carry into effed an appointment SO offensive to them: If, by bringing forward this motion, he could produce that effeet, he was satisfied he should do a great publiC service. But even if he should not be able to carry the niotion, he ‘vas convinced the diseUssion mus . t.be beneficial. For he was hot one of those , cared the disens3ion of the Irish Catholic Question. It was material that . the Roman. Catholics, o;'en thotigh they obtained not the rights to which they were entitled, should ~ know they had friends in that House on whom they could rely; 'For if' at any time they ,should have reason to think that they were objects of no- regard or 'consideration, their groins would he deep thotigh net kind, and it would be soon evinced by some dreadful convulsion, that notaing was dangerous as the 'SilenCe of adi eo u ,. tented . peoplt% The Church Establishment of Ire land wawa perfect anomaly forced on the 'people. The established and beneficed' Clergy Were often without duties . to perfcinu ; and the Catl)Olic people were Often without Clergymen to administer the rites of religion. to them. Thus there: :wire pas, tnrit• WithoUt flocks, and frocks without pastors. This situation of a country presented to an en lightened Legislature grounds of 'peculiar care and attention, lest ,a powerful and artful enemy should find the means 'of - converting to his own interest; the discontents to „which, without that, care., the situation was naturally liable, W first ought to be done to remedy this state of alias, it was nut easy to say, at least it was not easy to get all men to agree on the remedy : but What Ought not to be done was matzer of clear and universal ,assent. The feeliugs and passions of the mass of the people thus subject to an eitablishment of a dilferent communion, ought not to be irritated by petty.provocations. It must be universally allowed, that - neither Government nor Parlianent ought to Sandion the language of th ose who described so great a body of the subjetts as enemies to the State. ,He thought highly,in many respects of the charader and abilities or fix, present MiniSters; but this high character tended only to give a : more pernicious influence to the unhappy pre iticCees Whicti, they entertained ou one most material point. He was satisfied, that if the powerful and artful enemy of this country wore to chose the Ad 7 ministration most favourable to his designs against: us, i would be an Administration which, with good char.tckrs and dispositions, was yet stained with pre:- judi .es which must make them, he regarded as cue !lnes by the bulk of the people, As nothing could be more benefieiak than the influence of pure re-; ligion, so nothing could be more pernicious than the etleas of that religion that caught, hold of the pas sions. The one exalted man above his nature, the other degraded him beneath, the level of time brutes., Ile would not search into dialonaries fur explana tions of the word toleration.. He would boldly ap peal to the assembly 'he was addressing, and 'ask if there could be toleration in thi§,age without exemp tion and restriaions. This was what every man who ilkcharged his wity-to the State 'cas entitled to, kle would recall to the recolle4lien of the 'House the salutary el etas produced by the abolition of religious distinaions in Silesia by Frederick the Great, when that province came under, his deminion in a' state; of most deplorable distraction front that: cause, In a little tittle such was the coneord,.that the Protestants used the same _Church in the afternoon which the Catholics used in the morning, and vice Lusa. He -did not say' this was practicable or desirabie in. Ire land. Mkt 'woMci say that' he majority supp ort inc , an eitablishment of a different religion ought to be proteEtedint he fall 'and fair exercise of their own. The precepts of, the : benign Author of the Christian religion diretaed us to love each other, and. to view our mutual errors with indulgenCe. If the 6orreelion of - errors vas to be studied, the means of Me corre&ion should be gentle. * A 1:Ny6 . 01 - nest zeal, Rarticularly if seConded by political rigours on one side, and,po iit btflietits on the 'other, could only inalpro- , selytes of a feW knaves. The mtv'alo.ages of the sys 7 tem of relaxation adopted in the 'present reisn was . extensively felt the substitution of enligbtened Catholics for furious bigots. The Catholics of this day' had no hostility to the State, as in the times when the restriEtimis 'Wete establiihed, and sequent times, when the restricitiOris served to keep that hostility alive. He depreared - the too close 'union of power with the established religicin, :and feared the religiOn as well as the State, and_ the country, would suffer from an union. could not think ill of / a religion 'thy ,t had produced some of the best men .that had elver breathed, and some of the ableSt defenders ofthe Christian re : ligidn;..--a Fenelon . and 'a PaScal;_ and he could not help contemning in a Chancellor of Ireland, at the" I '• present day, the study of the nartow polemics of the dark ages. He did not mean w hurt the teelings of the Learned Doadr. He ,gave him credit. ',for sin cerity in the language he uttered On a recent coca sicin and 'he was not without some hopes, to,whiat repOrt gaie strength, that theL4arned De6tOr . (feel- 1 ing how obnoxious that language wag, and how of- Jensive'his' appointment to be a Privy Coun‘eltor would be alter it) would , himself ditclairri 'it, and withdraW from that i appointMent. If Leahted Dodor should ad in that wooer, 'stick' conduct would make him more truly right honourable in hiS' eyes than any distindion of birth or' title howeVer great. He moved that there: be laidbefore the IjouSe Copies of the correspondence between 'the Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland'and the Secietary of Stateifia.; .tive to the propriety of appointing Patrick Diaigenait; Esq. L. L. D. to be, one:of his: Majesty's Most Ho nourable Privy CouncA slot Ireland. Mr. W. Wyritste expressed his disapprobation of the appointment ,of Dr. Duicrenan, .and said• that there was no business in, the Privy Council of lre.; land in which his advice would be necessary. Sir AITHUIt WELLLSLEY., said, that in recom- H mending it to the House to reject-this Motion, he should not folloW the 'HOn. Gentleman who-had intro4ced it through the great variety of topics in whieh he bad indulged; but which, did not appear to him to : very much, conne&ed with the oneition under consideration. He begged to assure the Hbuse, that. the appointment of which the propriety WAS now disputed, did not take place in consequence' of any application whatever of the Learned Doctor himself—it was made solely upon the grounds which he had stated ,on a torther night. The Learned Gentleman was Judge of the Ecclesiastical Court in Irelpd, and. the person who filled that ottiCe- in England was always a Member of the Privy Couticil. I It could hardly be necessary for him to s,tate, that there was a great deal of ecclesiastical cc- casionally beFore the Privy Council,ofireland, such as uniting,and disuniting parishes and benefices, and other business of that kiwi upon which ittntist he obVious that . the alivica Cif Ile liAiroad Dottatiwbuld be necessary. The attention of the House was par ticularly called last, Session, by a Right Hon. Baro net opposite (Sir 4. 'Newport) to a subjet to which he had just adverted, viz. the Uniting of ParishoS; &c.: it was therefore natural that the Lord Lieute nant should be desirous of. obtaining the advice'of the Lt:arned Gentleman upon such a sobje& , The questions upon which as a Privy Councilibt, he:wonid . be called.upon to give his opittion, bad no connexion with religious differences ;' they were Ajuestions reL: gating to the Church, of which be . waS 'the principal - Civil (Aver . The Learned. Gent., from his situation auel .professional knoWledge tivas Diu. donbLedly the fittest pen!,outo.give advice upon these subje6ts, and.. therefore it was thought proper that he simukid bOnPointed a -Meeiber of the-Privy Council ; and he begged to ask, wheth - erthefe was any thing in the clta)l,4lLr of the. Learned Do&or wiliel),st;oula prevent sueli an appointment ? The Hon.'Gestle-: man who had for Ward the Motion had' borne tectitnony., to the , high charaCter which he clittraaer which, certainly was equal th:tt of any. man , - , in the:Country: The only' objection which Gentlemen seemed to Save to the Learned Dator was, that' be was warmly , atrached,to the interecticof the .Established Church and of the ,Protestant iteligion This was 'the first time, at least this was the first - Seseon • of -Parliament,. in which - it 'lad been • publicly maintained, that because a man •was; attached to the . Protestant Church, that therefore he•was , untit to be appointed to any ollicc, or to be• made a Member of the Privy Council, He begged to 'repeat, that thiti Gentlenw, as'a Privy Councillor, would not be called upon - to give advice upon thegeneral measures. of Go verntngntut merely uponsueh questions as might he referred to. him respecting ecclesiastical affairs. With rasped to the observation 'Which, the Learned• Gentletnan was stated to have made use of, it: an in- discreet expreasion had follen from hitu, it certainly would have been a good reason for taking notice of it at the. time but surely it could nat.be considered .as a reason why the Lord Lieutenant should not'bi a ll o wed to avail of his advice. If that ob- jeelion was to hold. good on one side, he supposed ought to hold good on the other. With respect to hini self, he did not care what a man's opinions wi!..re, he thought he ought to be employed in the business for which he, was qualified; and upon that•principle he bad recommended,the appointment of the +Learned Gentleman as a Privy Councillor. Sir J. - NNWPOWT thought the. app*tment under the consideration .ot the House was calculated to produce a. very had etleat, when coupled • with-the cur,tailment of the grant • for Maynooth, and other evidences of a disposition hostile to the Catholics in the. present AdminiStration. If his 311kt5ty's NEM sters had any regard for their own clipraCler, or the safety of the country, they would not persist in the appointment in question.. • Mr. BEREsronwmaintained that whoever charged the Roman Catholics with being bad subjeas, libel- Jed and 'belied theta hut: to call in question any poiutment I:lnuage made• use of in Parliament, however indiscreet, was tit once to interfere. with ,LUNDUNI P n dby ltscoAan 1-lAttazi.of No. 4, Martlett.court, Bo w " trect i and publiiherl by W LLIA Axmlotz gerturs, of South At tbv StIN-OPPLCX No. 112; Strand; whin - Q Adtnar tisemeras, o r d er - 5 ior the Paper, Tetterr for the bditur, SzcOust.puido '' 'lt