The Sun. — London, England, 1808-06-25 00:00:00

-ition fully justified. his appointment to such critical responsibility. lit the same Must Observe, that 'the accidental pre- Seoce , of that .Officer .in - England to take the corn , mand of the Swedish Expedition, deserves expla nation ; I say accidental, because if public report is to be credited, the arrival in England of Sirlobtr Moore from Sicily was as unexpeCted by his Ma jeaty's Ministers as by the Country at large. Ircer tainly appears - . extraordinary, that • a -, force of 10,00 Men, employed in the, ,defence of such an import poMt as Sicily, sbonld, reach the English shores without the previous knowledge of Govern mem. Did this arise from any clerical error in the orders, or frony any blunder of another de- Fcription? . Without dwelling any longer upon this point, I will proceed, Sir, to , the principal cir ctinistlnce, which is, as I before observed, •that there is now lying in the ports of. Sweden a large British forte, completely inactive ; and that at a pe iicd ofthe year the , most favourable for military }erations. From the. manner in which the Right on. Gentleman opposite spoke of the sentiments of the King-of Sweden, when the Swedish Treaty was presented to the House, one , might have been led to suppose, that when the time of action arrived, some ,previous concert would be estatilMled with respect to the mode in which - the troops sent by this Country should be employed. It was, therefore . , Sir, that the public became extremely surprised to learn, that . , imsuediately on the• arrival of the troopi under Sir John Moore, in Sweden, the Quarter-Matter-kOeneral (an Officer whose abSence palsied an army) wib sent , back to this Country .for instructions ; and that on his return to SWeden Sir John Moore set off - for Stockholm to concert a plan _of operations. These are points which demand explanation. I wish also to be informed by the Right Hon Gentleman opposite, respecting .the commercial relations between Great Britain and, Saved 6n. Have arrangements been made that our commerce shall not be completely db fated. by, our best Ally ? The Right Hon. Gentle man said on a former occasion, that he trusted ,to the justit.7o, to the liberality, to the discernment of the ,E.ing - of Suieden, to' have our cortimereia4 plans seconded by him. :Have the expectations of the Right Hon. Gentleman' been fulfilled ? Not any thing more, Sir,, oocurs . to me on which to call the attention of his Majesty's Ministers, except that must important subject-which formed the basis, of the motion that' I had:the honour of submitting to the I-louse on the 29th February last. I then stated, that it did not appear to me degrading toa his COun-: try to propose:a negotiation for peace with France. in the interval which has elapsed, at no period has it appeared to me that such a proposition would be degrading. Nor can I anticipate during the recess which is.: about to take place, any ciremustances, the occurrence of .which can by possibility render it inexpedient or degrading, on the part.cf this Coun try, to opeil such a negotiation. Having said thus much, Sir, I shall sit down, trusting to -the"cen dour of his Majesty's Ministers, that they will afferd to me and the Country every satisfa&ory explana ticn with regard to those subjects on which they can communicate information without detriMent to the public service." • Mr. Secretary CANNINq replied to the. following efibct " Mr. Saeaker—The Hon. Gmtleman ileeds no apology for making any observations, or proposing any questions to his Majesty's _Ministers, which to him may seem advisable. I will endeavour, Sir, as far as lam able, and with the utindst disposition to • frankness on 'my part, to give to the Honourable Gentleman theisatisfaaion which he a.equir 'ca. , . In doing this I will begin with thosetOpices with which the. Honourable Gentleman concluded his °bier. vationL --The Honourable Gentleman expresses greiit, surprise that the armament sent to the as sistance of the King of Sweden has 4,0 t yet com menced..aCtiVe operations. The answer to this remark, Sir, isle be found in the'proposition this • armament was sent to the assistance of the King of Sweden. It was sent to co-operate with the Ibrces of an ally ; :to be subjea tie: plans of war fare which that ally might direct ; if in the interval , that • has elapsed Ifont the fitting out of the Expedition considerable changes have taken place in the posture of affairs, and in 'the military councils of Sweden, that circumstance would sufficiently accc'utit for the inaaivity of the British force.' Ilany blame can be impeted, to his Maje Sty's Government on this head, it must be for the decision which pro;eCled the .Expe dition, and for the promptitode ,which that de-' cision was earijed into exectnion; without waiting until 45 possible, chance. vanished .01 its remaining unerupleyeid on its arrival. But the lionourabie Gentlenum expresses great surprise that the eallaht Commander 'at that Expedition was found hi En-,.;- land to he placed at the head Of it. have in a great measure explained this circumstance on a former occasion. The force under thecommand of Sir'John Moore, in Sicily, was removed from Sicily fa Gibraltar at the eve of a considerable military operation in that quarter of the Continent, and when it was highly iinportant to ,atfard the army engaged in that operation the double chance of .receiving aid from at home and from abroad. Sir John Moore at rived at Gibraltar' in the latter end of November, two days after the emigration of the Royal Family of Portugal. Having waited for some time, of course in vain, for acommunication with Sir Sidney Smith, be, in pursuance of . his orders, and not in conse-. quence of any error, returned home. As to the im policy of leaving Sicily with an'inadequate garrison, 1 am ready to adinit, that if it 'were possiblen would be highly-desiislisu to attend, at same time, to every point of our military defence ; hut, Sir, this is impossible, there are occasions on.which a small risk must be run, for the hope of performing a greet ser vicb. On this principle it was, that, his Majesty's Oovernmenf thought it 4civiseable to weaken, lor a titne, the garrison of Sitily. Whether, in doing so, they were or were: not justifiable, it is , for the Coun try.to decide. I now advert, Sir, to the qtaestions• Of the Hon. Gentleman connected with our cotri 7 merce. He asks, whether his Majesty's Govern. mebt have any security for the co-operation of Stie. den in their commercial arrangements. Sir, I have no doubt but at this moment a Treaty has heen signed at Stockholm, not of indulgent, but ofbearty co-operation in those arrangements. As soon as the Swedish Government were told what, was expeEte& ftorn them by this Country, withoot w e itieg for the 'formalities of a Treaty, they: entered cordially into our views ; but, Sir, it was thought advisable that a regular Treaty should be concluded, and I re- 5. cpprob I 5 heat that I bait no doubt' but that ere this it has been'. signed. Anieric.a, Sir, is the next subjeCt of the Hon. Gentleman's speech which I shall notice.: Of . nearly all that has passed betwe e n tlret u aountries, the House and the Pablic live been put in possessiun by the publications of the American Government. ' I presume that the Honourable Gentle Man does nut intend to blame his Majeaty's Ministers tor not hay ing mad'e similar communications to Parliament; for if he had thought such communications neces sary, be would doubtless have moved for them. Without censuring their produaion by the 'AMeri can Government, his Majesty's Ministers have felt that the trarisa6..tion, being pending, any appeal from Government to Parliament would look as it • were concluded._ I. shall- only state;, that in the wholeconduet Of the British Government, with re. • spe& to the erfairof the elzesapeakt, we have en deavoured to keep in view the principle upon which we'set out, narnely, to make ample reparation for that which was a aecidedly wrong ea ar but to make • that reparation under a firm determination not to surrender a right which the great majority of the country has ever considered as essential to its dearest interests. Sir, I may boldly appeal to the country to determine, whether, fronathe ebrrespoirdence on the table of the 'House, any such disposition. on the part of his D.l3jesty's Ministers has appeared fliyough the whole tratisaction. That the rupture' of 'the negotiation on this subje& was not attended with any Costile feeling on either. side is au incontro7 vertible truth. The reparation was not accepted by America, because America would not fulfil the con dition oh which alone it was tendered, namely, revocation of that Proclamation by which British - Ships were not allowed to enter the harbours of America, -whila those of the Enemy visited them at pleasure,- But, Sir, the manner in which the Bri. tish reparation was tendered to America by a special Vission, was, to all the feelings of nice honour, an ,elfeative reparation, although not accepted; 4t114 so in'faat we have every reason to believe that it was considered by the American Governnienta With re- , sped, , Sit, to the Embargo, and to the probable el feels of the Orders in Council in 'producing its abandonment, the Hun. Gentleman has mis-stated my Right Hon. 'Friend's' proposition. The 1106.' Gentleman declares my Right 'Hon. Friend tolleve predided, that the Orders in Council would do aw . isy the• Embargo, wh ere a s 'my' Eton:Friend only argued, in opposition to the Hon. - Gentlemen on the other side s that the Orders in Council did not produce the Embargo; that they were not subr,tantively knoWn " in America when the Embargo took place ; and tint they were not included in the complaint made by ttie, American Government td Congress, on whiClicorn plaint the Embargo uai founded. Nor, sir, do' think that. the Orders in Council themselves could . have produced any irritation its Aawrica. It I were not disposed on this occasion to avoid, making ally : . observations that might be suspealed of a party feet iog, I would say, that I do think irritation in Ame rica may have been produced by the echo of the diseussiees• in this House. Sire since the return of Mr. Rose, no comniunicatiou has been made by the Atnataicau Government, in the form of,complaint, ,or remonstran6e, or irritation, or. of any description whatever. I tuation thiS particularly, because it is noterieus that there have been several - arrivals from America, supposed to •bi, of trem. imporral44, and that several Special Messengers have reached - this country from diencsa'after having touahed at France. But, Sir, if the Honourable: Gentleman , in t he execution Of 110 public. duty, had thought lit- to tneve far any. CoillillUlliCatiOUS that had been made by the Aineriean*Goveroment since the depas lure of Air. Rose, my answer Must have been, not that big Majesty's Govespreent' were*`disinclined to make: them, out that absolutely there were none to make. It it be asked " why r I am unable Satisfacitorily to , reply. I can only conjecture that America has en- tend into negOciznion4 with France, which are ex'. peeled to lean to some result, .and that the ccanniu- Motions of America to this country are to be con tingent on that result. This, S,r, is conjecture alone,- but it is 'founded on the extraordinary camstance oti.so many arrivals whthout any aomont tiiution. It 'cannot •be expeCted of me, that shOuld state. prospectively, what are the siews of his Majesty's Government on, this ,sobjeet. The Nina cipte by .which they have hitherto been guided, they wall continue invariably to contemplate. They at- Lid) as much value to' the restoration,, and to the continuance of cordiality and pertea,t - good under, standing with America, as any, Man can do . ; they are ready to purchase that advantage by every justi itible ; they have proved that readinesa by the Act of the press:tit Se's aim in which the trade.' ut America has been placed on the most vuurable footing; but, Sir, they are not ready to purchase that advantage, great as they acknowledge it, at - the price of the barmier of those rights on winch the naval power and preponderance of Great Britain is innnutably fixed. ' The Honourable Gefitletn'in has alluded with suflicient delicacy to arsine unpleasant circumstances which the pri;sent stagnation of commerce has 'produced in a part of this country. But, sir, in waking this allusivn, he , , has offeiad to the Executive Government a piece of': aidvice, which, I trust, is unnecessary.' He has re commended to us, Sir, in any measures Which the excessea date misguidectinay compei us to take, to discriminate between the objects of mercy aid those, of justice; and not to apply to innocence, goaded by want to imprudence, the penialunent which bea longs only to •indettarsible guilt. Sir, : l trust it was arettectly unnecessary. ,for" the Hon. Gentleman to lay down'this principle fir the guidance of his• Ma- ., Jesty'a Government. And, Sir, if among those whu by the real pre'ssure of the times, are, incited to ' tumult, men shutild be found, who, without them selves experiencing any inconvenience, avail ,thei~i- selves of the irritation of othersa to forward views of a very different nature, then, I trust; that to. such Oen the Hon: Gentleman wonid not .wish , ciple.of lenity to apply, I state this, only because I think that the recommendation of the Ilon a Gen tleman is rather too much of a sweeping description, • and that it s it plies a proposition which I do not choose at this moment elate( to contraditt or to adopt, namely, that one cause alone, the pressure of the times, isenough to produce the evils to•which fie baS alleded, and that no other can exist in aid of it. The Hon. Gentleman inquires -Whether the Opera Opn of the Orders in Council- has'produced the Lull. etteals eXpetaed Imamit. But he does n ot m ate fairly the extent of the expectation. • It nev e r, was • sepposed by his Alajesty"a' Government, that thu Orders would, throw no impediment in the way . of the commerce of the country ; we expected . that they would impede the commerce 'of .the country, .but we Imposed this testriEtion, be - eauSe .reStridtion existed elsewhere, and because we thought that the restri&ion Of the .inemy, would be more successfully combated by a defyit)g restrielion on our part than by helpless acquiescence and unresisting supplication ; means unworthy of the British nation. - - .I have nbw, Sir, gone - throng!) must. of the Hon. Gentleman's observations, except those which related .to the different ,Committees of thiS House, 'to the general course of Parliamentary . . business, and to the laborious attendance of Metn hers during the present Session. Sir, I shall add but very few minutes to that attendance in express ing my cordial concurrence in the sentiments of the Hon. Gentleman ;' and I am persuaded my Right Hon. Friend pear me (the Chancellor , of the Ex chequer) is by no means disposed to dissent from the Hon. Gentleman's opinion, that this has been one of the Most severe and laborious Sessions that Wa'S ever known. lithe Hon. Gentleman refle&s with com placency on his share 9f the proreedingS of the Session, we have also the satisfattiQn to relied. that we have' done our duty in it, and we certainly an-- tieipate its, close with a feeling 'Of satisfattion. - will not extend it still further by wasting the time of the House in descanting on the desire which it is rational to suppose that Government must feel for the restoration of a peace—l will not say consistent with the honour of the Country alone 7 -but.a peace by which le:s future safety and independence may be secured-: - The'disposition which has ever existed in the minds of his Majesty's Ministers on this subjett, and Which was.distinctly declared' by vs on the mo tion made by the Hoe. Gentleman on the com mencement' of the Session, remains unchanged. lint, Sir, I' think, that under the present circum stances, the Hon: Gentleman will scarcely expect us to 'declare whether or not we think there is ally pro4peet .of art opening for that event. The Hon. Gentleman may he assnred, that we may feel as much a he, or any man, can feel, the difficulties - in which the Country is involved ; but we also teel, that she has energy and resources enough to con tend, so long as it may be necessary to contend, for the maintenance of her power and independence. To.say any thing fUrther, on this subject, to attempt 'to predict whether peace is probable or hopeless, would, in my opipion, Sir, tend only, in the one case, to relax exertion, in the other, to aggravate esrir WaPTwtirin declared' that he had asked tor no information with resped to the probability or the improbability of i)eace'; be • had only called the attention of Government to that, important subjea. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the,Chaucel • for of the Exchequer), notwithstanding what had been said by the Bight Hon. Gentlemen who bad just spoken, had certainly held put the expedatiori that the enforcement of the Orders in council Would . induce America to see her true interest, and that-she would in consequence withdraw her embargo. The hot however was otherwise. As to what the Right Hoe. Gentleman had said Of the echo of the l)ebates iu that Hoose, 'mina-produced an irritation in the American mind, which was subsequently allayed, such a statement vvzs a general reprobation of e‘ery. public deliberative assembly. - 11 the Members!l - .the House of Cummins were not to speak their, opinions freely, • it were better that tlw Hoese ,, of Commons did not exist. But this was the common topic of all Ministers, little considering that the good far outbalanced the evil. In the present instance he did not bel t ieve that any evil had been produced. The Right Hon. Gentleman had expressed hiwatis faCtion at the approaching close of the Session, and . had been .:very pleasant on the gratification which this circumstance would give to hii Right Hon. and Learned Colleague; He could assure him that be Waanot less pleased with the prospersthan himself, and ` that if he telt any of that complacency in the retrospea which the Right 'Hon. Gentleman bad ascribed to him, it was not so much at what he had actually done, as` at ;he line of utaiduel he had pur sued/ There was - one topic of national' importatie2 on which 'he had not touched, namely, the internal ; defence 'of the country. The reason was. this ; ou 'a recent evening a llinitt,Hntt. Gentleman, (Mr. Yorke,) in t speech contaniing sonic tremendous truths, had called upon a Noble Lord opposite for an explanation en that subject ; and in his own em phatic language had asked the Noble Lord, " whe ther our fortifications were in 4uch a state, that if Buonaparte were to see them he would pull off his bat to them with respect The Noble Lord had • replied, that' the fortifications of the coast were in sthne,places complete, And in others advancing 'to completion ; and also that the other military ar rangements for the distribution of oar force were Of such a nature that every person might lay head upon his pillow, and sleep in security. He woohl trouble the House with a few words on what had fallen from the Right ! Hon. Gentleman xespeding the return of Sir John Moore. Every ,body, knew that a small risk ought' to be run for a great objett ; • • but although it might have been. very adviseable to leave Sicily, for a short time undefended, be con fessed he copid not divine why the force under Sir John Moore did not return from Gibraltar to the de. fence Of that Island, instead of a fresh force being sent out from this country for that purpose. He Pad always been given to understand, that,the re turn to England of S:r John Moore had been occa sioned by a mistake which might happen to any Ad miuistratinn ; but the Right Hori.'Gentleman-had claieied the blame for his Maiesty's Ministers, by . declaring that the return of that gallant. Offic er wets in conformity to his instructions. In his opinion, a great risk had been incurred for a little object ; tor certainly it was a great risk to leave Sicily undefend ed for such a length of time. He was very happy to learn that the commercial arrangements between Great Britaiti and Sweden were of such a satisfaCtory nature. He would take it for granted (although the Right Hon. Gentleman had abstained from touching on this part of the sue jeet); that it was in tended to put the Orders of Council into full acti vity in this, Country. If so, and if facilities were to be given to their • operation in Sweden, then, on the commencement of the next Session of Parlia ment, the Country would see, without the possibi lity .of evasion, whether those Orders had been tOnncled in wisdom, as asserted by his Majesty's MiniSters.;, or whether, as it was asserted by bia side of the House, 'they were an. instance - of the grossest political absurdity that was ever committed. ~a . . The que.Aion would, be fail!). Jt.ism;e. Undituli!t:l ly, it was the wii:.h of his friends; and of himself', that they might tte tuistaken . ppon it. He was p ro ceeding to advert on the length of the Session, wheo he was 'called to order by . . . Mr. CANING, who -obserVed that the Hon. Centletnau was going'beyond all bounds of eNpla- • nat ion. CASTLEIMAGIT denied that hia Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Yorke) had Lhibited any discOurag ing view of the military means :tin] resources of the Country. J{c: . had merely called the attention of his Majesty's Government to a species of defence which ,the Eltruie knew very well could n o t be brcp.:2ht to perfetlion in a limited space of thrle.— • The - Hod. Gebtieman opposite-,would have.aaed but' fairly it he had congratulated the 'House on the great accession that had been made to the military strength of the Country in other respects. To thi.; accession his Right HOnourable Friend had (leap juske r -wh•en- he-stated that •he could not flatter himself the army world ever be carded to a higher pirtit tha:t7 that at Which it had arrived. The.oo. Gentleman opposite, midst the enriaus topics of his sp,ech, ,misfit Lave stated, if. he .had cho,en,,that his Maiesty s Ministers,'in eight months, had added - 4-0,000 -men to the regular force Of the Country. - ,On the next meeting of Parliatepi , b e had - doubt that be shduld have to congratulate theta on .the'success of the other efforts that were making for Abe increase'. of the .means of military defence. Adverting to the return of Sir J. Moo re, h 4 observed; that there 'were variadi cons iderations in distributing the force of the Country, which had induced his rajesty's Ministers garr i son Sicily :with fresh troops, rather than ,With'those that had quitted it for Portugal. The return of Sir J. Moo re was in obedience to his orders. It was the effea, n om ` of chance, but of design,,. Mr. Wutruar:eu observed, that the flight Hen. Gentlemin (Me, Yorke) who 114 spoken so Oh a few evenings ago, on the military defence of tba Country, after having dwelt on the prodigious pa tary power of Trance, had expressly 'contended, that the navy of England ought not alone to be de° pended upon far our defence, and that it was the n duty of Government by every means/ and more particularly by an increase of fortification, to add 10 our security against any'sudden danger that might arise. Mr. DSJNDAS replied to those observations of the- Hon. 'Gentleman A;hich related to the affairs of Ilse East 'lndia - Company. - 'The Hon. Gentlernsn had asked whether 'the account between his Majoity's Government and the East India 'Company had been brought to a final close ; and whether the sum that liqd been already voted WAS all that it was intended to propose upon that subjea ? -Undoubtedly, in his. apprehension, as far as•relared to the account of which-the balance was struck, with exception per-, haps of some items, of which only a rough estimate had had Leen giVen, for want of the necessary doce7 merits. But it should be observed, that the account between the Government and the East -India Cnill pany was an account current, and that if Sln Wl" c „`: were struck at 3 particular, period, the account still going on, the result must necessarily ohm.. The lion. Gentleman supposed that the ;Ws to the Com' pany would be - sufficient, to , carry them on till the, re-assembling of Pa t rliament. The tact was, that,.: the commencement of the present Session, cir‘e" . stances led him (Mr. thindas) to suppose that tho Compani , would require further'aid;, but the balance due to Chem from. Government turning out to he larger than was imagined, and the CoMpany's affair 4 assuming a more favourable :tweet, as far as related to their sales at home, he had now no. hesitation declaring it his decided opinion that the Compaq. could go on veryswell without further assistance tin* til the re-essei»bling of Parliament. He had tbere fore not telt authorised to.come to Parliament fat any further aid -clurin4' the present Session. , Vile' I her- Parliament would be called tipon in the nes t Session for further aid he. knew not, but if ilea.`` were, he thought they would do well not merely to eonsider the pecuniary, circumstances, of the Coal.' pany, at the time when such aid might be requireri!, but to look into all the bearings of the affairi, Oct to consider how far their aid might be accompanied by regulations . which would place the Comp'! ) )' a better situation than that in will:4 thry vva° l7 "" placed.' • • The Amendments were then agreed to, attel•tbP' Bill was ordered to be read a third tune to.morrow• Mr. BARHAM, alter enumeratin a ,:, the varions measures that had been -adopted . and . recommend" , for the relief of the \Vest Indian interests, and coin menting upon their value and efficacy, moved, suant to his notice, " That the House do reso lve it" ' self into a Committee of the whole House , to tal°,, into consideration the Second and 'Third Reports ot the \Vest India Committee." • , On the question being put, Lord BINNING rose to second the motion, O a re g retted that (14 motion should have been wad e in so thin a House, as the s'ubjeci was of stitin;ient importance4o entitle it to a tidier attendance. „ • - Mr. Rost: regretted that the Honourable Gentle,: Man should, at this stage of the Session, have t bottfiv` proper to bring forward a question of this desc„ . .r i c lion. The,Honourable Gentleman, from his sport seemed to have 41 - 0 . ught. for Ward the. motion with view to give him an opportunity of stating tha t ' 11 the measures which had been taken for the relief the West Indies were not etFeetual to their objee. The Right Honourable Gentleman .then entered into, a statement to show that the measures adopt ed e were and would be beneficial to the `Vest India interests, After a short conversation between Mr. Marrytit , Mr. Hibbert, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Ellis, Lord Henry Petit', Mr. Barker, and. Mr• Rose, 'the motion was negatived with a division... The Assessed taxes Bill was read a third t ime .0 the motion of the CHANCEI.LOR of the EXCIIHatI4..: and 'passed: The Westminster Improvement Bill was read a the third time, and, after a short conversation tIP° II . - , b; . subje6t of u clause proposed by Mr. S ll/I ja -• toemPower the Com tnissioners to purchase ee tl h grounds where a fire had lately occurred , and "T i bv was contiguous to the ground already purchase" se i j ; the Comthissioners, Mr. Banker ..having oPP:' the Clause, which was supported by . "Alr., the Chancellor of. the Excitequer, the Clause was brought tip and added to the...lW way of rider, after which the Bill passed. , jr ,„, Hussmssut: bronlit up Mr. ralater