The Sun. — London, England, 1818-02-12 00:00:00

k Wa's not is re cent one, lit 'the tt - e:itv of 1792, the admission of c..,tctitis to Spanish Maiket a s pro±sibirerl, and if since then it had beep at all permit - fed, It was only by i 3 t 1 act of special indul snspending the operations of that Treaty Yet, after all, Spain was nor the only country That acted on the s'yttern Of restriction and prohi bitiot's fin conimetce. Even we oursekes wet-e, still a good deal .ernharra3aed by the restrictions of cointirerehl regulations.—(Heari, hear, with-Tesprei—to - the•systermof the Govermitent,.it..hael produces! such.effectS in many cases that the strongest remonstrances had 11 ,11 fun n e d iie c ess,ary - s o Wong. AhaLeveu the Hiii. - Gentlemanwonld not have recommend , ed !:ese io.tnAnytgasfis _lliad been effectual, and redress had beeli given ; in other instatirees the evil had bteti 60(.0 not remedied entirely,; and in several in , staticeS, lie was sorry to say, they bad been hitherto quite ntisticcessfiil. 'Still it would not be fair to entertain strongfeelings against ~Spain'On account of this. Even between Great Britain and !'eland there were cases of as great ,hardship en dared; and of as titiiett difficulty in 'coloring the grievances occasioned by the commercial regola _ tioti• between the tiro ay het ween Great Britain and Spain,. or at6t other foleign Power. It was to be hasped, however, that as those Mis taken motions of. ciininierCibil regulations iiere gradually abandoned by other nations, that the lime.was near at hand when they would cease CO be' harboured in Spain.—(Hear, hear !) Mr LYTTLN;TON COPId nut refrain from expre . ing hia satisfaction at what had been now said by . the Noble Lord, because it contained an exposi lion of the_ most sound practical priociples of commercial re-_:ulation.—(hear, hear !)—He was perfectly aware that remoustrance was the-only course which the Government could pursue with respect to Spain.—Wilat be complained of seas, the iutoferible grievance of issuing orders of prohibition so suddenly, that British suffered ruinous losses. - Dlr, F. lionmson said, that with respect to cottons, there had been a notice given by Spain, in 1815. of her intention to return to her old pro• bibitory system against them. Sir HenryWel .le,sly had remonstrated against this, not entirely without success. He. was not aware of any re cent increase of the duties on iron. It certai n ly . was a grievance that heavy duties should be sod -tienly imposed on the impartation of a particular article of trade ; yet this was a grievance which we ourselves had not untreqoently Occasioned , to foreign merchantS. For it . even - now' was no un common thing (however mistaken the principle untotitmately was) to pass an 'Act, -imposing heavy ditties on the importation of a particular • article, whin were to take effect and he levied -immediately on the passing of the Act. • Mr. LYTTLETON said, he was informed it had been the practice of Spain to give 6 months' not ice of any prohibitory ditties before they were actual ly and the complaint was, that this prtic .:tiee had been discontinued.. Dr. Putccistotte wished to know whether, tin . (ler the present Treaty with Spain, persons who, having instituted proceedings in the Admiralty Court here, had sentence of restitution of cap tured vessels pronounced in their behalf, were to 'be referred to the Spanish Government for the 'execution of that sentence ? He was iodated to 'ask the qui-stion, in consequence of its having been said that 200,0001. out of the 400,0001. to be granted for Spain, was in lieu of claims for yes ads captured, and afterwards restored. Lord CASTLRREAOH replied, that persons who had sentence pronounced in their favour would have a strong equitable claim onahe Spanish Go %eminent. His understanding was, that persons in that situation must look to the Spanish Go vernment for indemnity. Lord ALTHoRPR made objections to the grant of 400,0001. in the present situation of our fivances. Mt. ‘VtLacaFoece co:aended, that even as a flatter of commercial calculation, the Treaty was a wise one, a nd the sum would be amply repaid by the commercial advantages which the Treaty would produce. Mr. CALCRAFT, alluding to the reply of Lord Castlereagh respecting claimants for captured ves sels who had sentence pronounced in their favour, thought it very hard to runt over those persous to the Spanish Government. Lord CASTLERE A OH Said, !bat those persons would have a good remedy against the Spanish 'Government. The arrangement wa: made after the precedent of the Treaty with Portugal, to which no objection had been made ow that groom'. • Mr J. P. GRANT contended, that it was very unfair and discreditable to send those persons it whose favour sentence had been pronounced it our Courts of Justice to have the sentence carrict into execution. Mr. W. SMITH approved of the Treaty gene. rally ; and Sir R. HettoN objected to the grant of 400,0001. Th e motion was then agreed to, and the Re. port of the Conopi;tee ordered to be received to Morrow. EMPLOYMENT OF SPIES. Mr. FAZAKERLY rose, pursuant to his motion, to move that instructions be given to the Secret Committee now sitting, diluting an inquiry to be made %vile( her mcaillres had been taken to bring to justice the persons concerned in exciting riots in different parts of the country. The employ ment of persons who bad excited riots had been mentioned in rations petitions preselted to the House—had been proved by some facts which' came out during the trials of persons concerned in those riots, and was expressly noticed in the Re• port of the Secret Committee of the 20th of June last. As he had not himself sufficient local infor mation of the eircumstanc•zs node,- which those riots had been excited, he would s 4 tisfy himself with founding his motion on that passage of the Report which he had mentioned. The gaols had been fillet! with State Prisoners wider novel cir- CitfliStallCCS, and the proceedings of Goveroment h a d afforded the contrast of the strongest and the weakest measures, during which time tolorit:nme versons bad been confined with more than usual teverity ; situ the ‘ery last step hat! been a 1-tter ct paternal admonition :or the good management of the young Man who was discharged. When the jails had been crowded in this manner hp tire exertions of spies and informers, was' it fair or just that nothing should he 'brought against the persons detained ? Was it decent, or airy thing like au impartial administration of justice, when there did‘not appersr tit be the slightekt trace of suspicion against tliote persons? He.,-Ati;lsychow eter,.to puteirititaiitst .expressing- any opinion generally with regard to the employment of spies, though it was most unfortunate that public vices ouly - be detected by private treachery. But while such persons were employed; the greatest cantirin - should'be exercised frefOre the iuforara thin they furnished was acted upon. -He should 'trouble 'the House no forther; the whole object of Isis notion wns-merely to ask that these persons who had exceeded their instructions should •be detected and 'brought to justice. He should there fore move, " That it be an instruction to the Committee of Secrecy to inquire whether any and what measures had been taken to detect and [sting to justice those persons described in the Report of the Bth of June, who may, by their language and conduct, have encouraged thos e designs of which it was intended they should he only the in strument 5 of detection." The qiiteitimn being put, • Mr. B. BATHURST dcelared that nothing could he more correct and ingenuous than the manner lu which the Hon. Gentleman had expressed hitieSelf. If he understood the !notion, it was not for aitY , general' inquiry, but for authorizitig the Coritinittt.e .to adopt a precise and specific line of condutt. But they were armed at present with sufficient poWer. The Hon. Gentleman, however, wanted to know whether Government had taken any measures to 'punish certain persons that had acted a particular part in the finieliting of disturb ances. This assumed a proposition that he begged in the first instance to deny. It assumed that a certain crime bad been committed ; for to ask for punishment without it was premature. — The Right Hots. Gentleman here read the con cludingpaSsages of the 2rl Report of last year, which stated, that although the Committee had• 3 een'retison to apprehend that the language and conduct of sonic persons might have had the effect of encouraeing the designs of the disaffect ed, it was perfectly clear that before soch tn. couragetnent could have been given there wet e signs of simultaneous rising in various parts of the country," Ste. From this statement he argued, at considerable length, that it was the bounden duty of Government to avail themselves of all the hi formation that had been put hito their hands, and to make such detections as the nature of that in formation, and the consequent employment of such persons, warranted.' At present he would say that no such case existed as !hat intimated in the motion. The moineot it was found - out that 'Oliver was in Yorkshire, the course taken by the disaffected was, to say that he was the person who had otgaidzed and concerted the insurrections. The real state of the transaction Was, that by professing to be a deputy from London, and by Pretending • to look to London for support, and saying all was right there, .he might hold out eit eritira gement. Bet that those designs had long 'Dern plan tied . , and had been adjourned front time to t hue. was a fact kmiwo long before this person !wide his appearance. As to the question whether the Committee should be directed to inquire into those circumstances, he would say that •Government knew of no misconduct on the nart of this per son in the way that had been stated (Hear, hear, hear ; and there was no reason to believe that • he had taken any part in the explosions that had °centred. • His instructions were to gain iutortna- • lion for Government, and to communicate what he learned front time. to time to the neighbouring Magistrates, at every place to which he went. — Hie. having stated that there were 70,000 men, was the inmost point iu which he was incorrect. It was accident 'entirely that brought him into the country ; be was not empowered to go amongst those persons, but being amongst lie thought it right to state what lie saw and learnt ; and be would nut it to Geotiemen to say how otherwise be could have acted. Except as tar as related to Ilia' having been thus engaged, his life arid character were untainted by anybody ; and When persons were brought forward against him, he (Mr. B.) only hoped their own charac ters might stand as fair, and that they might not be (wool to be connected with any of those per.; sons charged with Luddism or other acts of out rage. It was the natural artifice of the persons he had exposed to turn round upon him, and say, " You have detected us ; now we will expose you." The Right Honourable Gentleman pro ceeded to argue on the detections that had taken place of the intended conspiracies, which he at tributed to the ob'servations of Oliver and siniiia persons, and insisted that front all that had trans hired, there were strong proofs of a ll th a t h a d been stated in the Report. The fact was, that ()liver was not at Derby, or the place where the insurrection broke out, and therefore it wens right to assume- that the whole plan of the conspi racy was matured before he could have given it any encouragement. The number of thirty or forty persons only who were committed to jail could nut be an overcharge of severity on Govern ment, when so lIIBIIV were concerned as leaders. lie denkd that any thing of consequence arose to individuals from this man's discoveries, as not a single person had been taken up from his in formation. The declaration of Brandreth in his last moments, respecting Oliver, was totally un founded.—(Mr. Fazakerley here explained, that he haul made no allusion to the trials at Derby). The Hon. Gentleman then could see nothing in the Second Report of the Committee on which to rest his opinion, as that Report was made long after the trials in London had been concluded, and the persons acquitted, so that it related sol e ly to the country. The person to whom Brandreth stated that Oliver was with him 'at Peorridge told him he knew -better, for that Oliver was at that very time in Yorkshire. After which ,Bran dreth never mentioned his name. Ott the whole, the Right Honourable Gentleman contended, I►at there was no ground for the motion, and mthing made out to induce the House to agree 0 it. Lord ?L•uro;; could not agree with the Hight Honourable Gcnticiva►► that no bad COl4Sc(plences arose out of the mission ut tt►is pert..un. 't t►is • - • ,-- per'sOn acted in a Piericular character ; on his ittfornvitioo the proceedings were to rest, and on which he verily believt . el .they di./1 turn. The Noble Lind read an s e:si t e:let Ireiii RepOrt of the COui ee of the nfilise of Lords lak Ses.,ion, slat iii "" that Afelitingfi thethioettected a ver s: loolsiog , jo the Met rtypollsi wit ai iii the)arts of !lie country ...tilloded that..,i)ie. ittntreetioti see Med-to have been confined." • thui - marked the Tnexion in the country.-; and by whOtit was this connexion kept up Why; by persons sent down by the Secretary ot Stiite and the greatest anxiety was shown by the Megiit6tri in certain places to l a y h o ld or the London Delegiite; a 2 the person most likely to blow the disorderinto n haute. Ile could not therefore in iiti conscience believe but that many of the mischiefs arose froth Suidi inter position ; although did not at till rely On the iestinomy of the dying person. lie tlii.itight inch individuals had little, eight to complain that liJiad betto a s serted iu the House of Commons they were men capable of being involved in such transactions: On the Contrary, he believed the charges againi,i, Oliver were made ,by p ersons w h o were no more concerned io those .transactions than himself (Lord Milton.) To say that no persons had been taken tip through Oliver's information was only like saying that the mitiows had not been made oil( from his deposition before the Magistrate, but it was too flinch to say that. nothing was done in consequence of the information derived from him, because it was from this they were able to cause persons to he apprehended. The time, however, would come, when an inquiry must. be made : but he wished one point to be atteoded to, which was, that at Nottingham, where they were ready to assassinate this man, no rising. took place, to (tile at ()thee parts, where lie was tuna fide believed to he, as in Detbysliire and Yorkshire, they did break out.—Dlr. Bathurst here explained that lie had said Ulises., thoogli iu Dorhyshire, was not at the places where the disturbances occurredl—The Noble 1.,,r,1 then said, his mouth should be sealed out this part of the subject for the present ; but lie thought the House..wonld not do its duty it it did not institute a substautiai ingility into the con duct of those persons, as well .as of those who employed them. It was a little too much to hear the conduct and character of such persons as Oiiver held up with sodittle discritninatioo. The Gentlemen opposite did not seem to be aware the tzelietal indignation will) which they, were re e„erded. It would surely be thought. they Jmast have some other mot i ves for endeavottriOg to excite alarm to the extent to which they bad ; and imprudent as had - been their conduct, br thotight they were not sorry to find themselves in such a situation. The Noble •I,ord concluded with deelarhig, diet , in the Committee to which he had been appointed ihe shOuld discharge his duty as lie h a d dime before, from an imperious sense That he owed his attendance to the, commands of the llonse ; but as ,they had in some respects.hn posed a•borth,o on. him, he should feel grateful it they would alleviate that binehen in sonic. degree, by adopting tlte,motion of his Hon..Frientl. Mr. C. GiteNT, jun. thought the Noble Lord had not given 311 Answer to the .oh,,,,..rvirstiotis of the Right Hon. Gentleman below hitlL ,It was quire tinnecessaiy to give those insfructions to th e Comfeittee, because they were as competent to re cur to the Snhittt as before. It was completely'a novel subject to sends:lel' instructions to a Secret Committee of that House. But if they went so far beck, and took the ground of the Noble Lord, it became a prima facia. • case to see whether the House coeld find enoueli of delinquency on the part of Government to authorise this step. Never had public disturbances occurred in which parties bad not chatged Government with being the au thors of the.n. Front 1793 to 1801, these charges were perpetually reiterated, yet it hid never been proposed to m , ke them a subject for the consi deration of a Secret Committee. Nothing what ever had heel] proved with respect to those iusti gations of which so much had been heard, and consetriefrly there was no ground for any special iustructions to the Committee. There had been no pi 00l that Oliver had been the instigator of either of the insurrections, as they were both arranged prior to his intercourse with any of the people. If his interference could have been proved, it was astonishing that the Learned Coun sel who so ably defended the prisoners at Derby, did not avail himself of Oliver's presence, by bringing him tip front the place where he stopped. It was the only pound on which the case ot his clients could have stood ; and he would ask any men whether, if a British Jury could have found them guilty under such circumstances, they would not have recommended them to mercy ? Alluding to Braodreth's declaration, he contended that no weight could be placed on it, and argued, that the fact of Oliver not having been called on the trials, was the strongest proof of his interference not being a fact. Unless, therefore, an extraordinary Case of delinquency could be made out, to cause so novel a deviation from the tilnal course, lie should eive his opposition to the motion. Mr. Bea awe did not think the House or the Country could look for any thing from that Com mittee, named as it was by Ministers, for the purpose of defending themselves. He was, hots'- ever, induced to support the niodon, because it would put to the testa case which he should es that the Committee, 'as was said by en Hon. Friend below httn, %vas one of the grossest juggles that was ever played off. They had as. scudded at two Committees already, in which the case of the Crown was laid before them ; but the case of the people was w i;hdrawn. Bit all that lie asked was, that the cause of the people should be heard. Jas the midst of their distresses they had been visited by one of the gr'eatest plagues that coeld fall upon them, namely,, that the Go vernment titer might to protect them had sent among them persoos to tit ice thenl to deSper.ltio ' n. With respect to spies generally, he should not stop to give any opinio o as to tile einp;oynielit or non-einployntent (,f than. lc knew how difii cult it was 10 dime 1.1 nice line between those tt ho looked for reward through the information they gave , and th e e, e who thought they weie perform iog a public duty by such condect. But Inc lunew dint the person eteployed by Governinerit had done acts that he could nut think ct without shame, or :peak of without itidignati end disgust. it was I,IIOWo that ever since 1812 soul) persons had kept that part a ILC country thet was the scene of the . • ••: /toe late Itis'ut'i . ect:ons in the greateet alarns. was aeaptain of the gang of epics ivho had larete a ptittlishe'd bookupOit In't; Sobiect. C pt , and ira'd receiVed hi: in'str" r i tionS m troth a gell.:t now D o ()014,, anti whom theeeror'e Sli”tati say 1 1,11lhillg: were to get it monber.of Hs It, " 3. that tieke sWorit iri Ihe .must' s aerld 11)3t► . ner to act as spies , ;tot! to bind the Poor dslu i , people by a sime ila oath, never direcover nature of their. proCeedin g s; and this, 011 .f br part of the spies, tOr th e so l e purp os e . of vioiat'"F their tras h . by eeposie . g had ep9 . APPC' • He did hot set hiu tse lt up as a r itCiiliAr mote list i. but lie should cousider the religion he professed I I he false and disgrac e f u l, if h e were t h us t o lert his countenance to such infamous acts, 1),) , w hic laws, And 'me, were toter ender die pretence of supporting Oovernmea r • --7 With re.speet to Oliver, however, he was r pared to meet th e c h arge of the Right Hon. " e°- !lemon who had so ardently supported his L. "' racter, and the House should be the witness be . ' tweet-I:them ; and when they had heard the.csk e : lie Wmild say they dare not refuse giving tl i :l s ‘ - instructions to the Committee. There Was lt Castles,whose evidence was believed by the juttl4' * and the Attorney-Genet al, but, thank God, di sb . e . r e ; reeved by theistry. This f a vo ure d w i tness, t his of a brothel; andVender of forged notes, it ) () , E tl that he might loOk better than h e was , bad p ee'` clothed ,by a Police Slagisuate. This sheavedl; care, and atteuthot that Gove rnment t h ou ght 14 1,: per to pay to such . person.;. But as to Olive'''. could tell the Right um,. Gen - del:tau that so tar from his beirt . g of a pure and nos!")( 7 ‘1 character, he w a s b ran d e d with infants.„ l l ' . begun his care e r by one o f t h ose c r i mes that .e.. lows like him genetally cotton' itted to themselves in life—by a- fraud on a, defeneelc'' woman. Ile had, like his associate, 'Cast le6 ; committed the et hue of big my. There W e :, other parts of his ch at acter which; When th t) : 4 ' Gentlemen should think fit to put hit» in the bq o as a witness, h e w ou ld s h ow were so base, owed to the mercy of others the life that be e l.l°", e ;'; But he would s ay n o 'more on thi s point tg Hon. Gentleman note. The Hon. then went into' deta of his history as a He began by stating that he °Weil his first i' lt " ( If duct ion to the public by getting with a small society of respectable. p t ( sob's who met to obtain a Cons`titutionai Ref" ru . ', iu Parliatnent ; that on the 2 , -Ith of April last 11:. started front Lond o n u nd e r a f e i gne d nam e, 5e Mr. Pendril at Liverpool ; tha t h e got- acquai"f; ell with a person of the nuts of Mitchell, vv" iu troduced him to a friend at Bath, named Jolli and it was. proposed t h at a f ew individuals sh o ". meet him ao a sort o f gen era l d e i eg .ate for dis"" s '; IN; the subj cc( of Parliam entary Reform.' l l° he stated he wks going toenake the tOnr el De dPl ,; Nottioghion, &c, to get Petitions. li e told th el ' d their .proceedings wet e too t ame ; t h at lie 14 " been engaged with Despard, and had effected ' l .!` i escape of Thiatlewood and young Watson, furnished them with money. li e ce ee l e f t Live:: pool, and by a sort o f juggle his conipaoitm arrested. lie used to tell the persoos lie i"fi t ' that it was his Opinion, and that of iris r"c:,, that it was of no use petitioniniz, an d that •"''•,„ most resort to physical force ; but ha foon: 1 th e ' objected to any violent proceedingee The MO•` i ing on the stl, of M v tval mvcidttotAi, for "V't himself formed it ; an d w h e n h e Came, fo'" the delegates, ten in ntimbee, from liirmlot-1 1 " ° : Sheffield, Leeds, Wakefield, &c. &c. god those poor ignorant individuals naturally considered lir: as a superior nom. He t o ld then) to look fof sistence from London, and that it was nrce , s 6r f to tutu opt with all the arms they could cOlc ct " He then told them to take a card, andviii" the number of persons they thought would 1 7 ) .1 out, and sign it w ith t h e i r names, an d he (cif' firtnly believed that it was from one of these " I I ' : that the Committee formed their opinion I ' 70,000 men %vete ready to rise in insurreetio; l e" --. All these facts there. were person; lcatly to Pr i ".. o on oath. In a f ew d a y s afterwards he ryas in London, and went to vi s it Mitchell in Cohlh' rl : fields, where he w a s confioed it) the h o use of Governor, and watched by spies, to sce if could draw any thing from him. lie here posed to Mitchell to write to his friends North, to see if lie could ind uce t h em It , make '', ll appeal to arms ; b u t Mi tc h e ll refused, awl sai d ' " I believe you are a t ra i tor , an d I b eg you ‘",, quit my presence, and never let me see you more' The next time he w as h ear d o f was at Drs-bYl' though the Ri g ht H on . G ent hi rnan d en i e d he been there.—(Alr. B. Bathurst explained, t hat had not denied , his having b een at D er b y, bat I ' 3- said he was not at the place where the instill" - Lion broke out.)—He would now read a St'",: went, of which, thou g h it was not an a ffid av it, contents might be relied on. Th e el o ," G e ntle' than then proceeded to read a variety of pat tio r " lie; resp,cting the conduct of Oliver when at t h , e Talbot inn. Oliv er to ld t h ose to w h om he dressed himself, that all legal means had been tried already without effect, and the people 19 Londe') were resolved to petition no more. was now necessary to have recourse to the oolY means left—physical force. The Londoners, l l° said, only waited for the country petiole 1 1 join th em to begin. When t o ld t h e y wort ) " y not come int a his 114 reply was, „ ea are utitaken there. Half the country, is ready to rise already—at Birmingham, Shelliel"' Leeds, and ail the manufacturing towns, the People were ready—at Leeds they were almost armed, and could with difficulty be kept doyen. ' m London there were 70,000 men ready to l' cL ate Midst the Government; he himself could rai ! 50,000 ; Wooler, who Was an excellent was to print the Proclamation Of the Insurget' t " and lie (Oliver) was to write them." He describer) the route he proposed to take, io to see that all the peuele in the places he '" mentioned were ready to co-operate with t Londoners. One matt, a lit icklaver, he perstiadeif to go to Birmingham, to make observatiot's oil what was spas,iug ; and es the man hail not shillings iu the world to cart} , hit» there, Oliver : 53ili lie' would write a letter tor him to carry t" " Getttletnati in that place who would g ive Plenty of money. Stich a letter be accoldiottki wrote ; bur the poor wan for whom it was ti Fit alarmed et seeing a number of persons taken q I