The Sun. — London, England, 1838-03-14 00:00:00

o ugly discharged their dots, and that too under the most ad verse circumstances. The Hon. Member then went on to detail the circumstances under which he first accepted the command. A short debate took place on that occasion, and he would briefly allude to one or two statements which were made on that occasion. One was that the rank and experience of the individual chosen was not sufficient. His answer was that he was not so much in love with this enterprise, but that he was ready to surrender the command to any other officer of greater experience and better abilities—( Hear, hear)—for although he was not able to anticipate all the difficulties he should have to contend with, he knew they would be very great, and he therefore should not have had an insuperable objection to surren tiering the situation. The next imputation to which he wished to refer was that thrown out by the Noble Lord, the Member for ertford (Lord Mahon). That Noble Lord said that such a ourse appeared to him to be a renewal of a system of Inas acre, from soldiers enlisting for mercenary motives, and that it was an unchristian practice. He bad no objection to the use of these terms, and stated his opinion at the moment. He was not accused of these motives himself, but the imputation was thrown out against the officers, and he could not refrain from no ticing the imputation cast upon them. He believed that in the case of soldiers employed in the service of free states, and when fighting even in a revolutionary cause, although the entire mind of the people were with that cause, still it was indis pensable for the good discipline of the military force that they should receive pay. However, if the practice was improper or unchristian, he was quite content, seeing that he was in the same situation as many of the most distinguished men in dif ferent periods of our history, amongst whom he would men tion the Duke of Marlborough, Lord Beresford, and even the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite.—( Hear, hear.) All these individuals had received commissions from foreign powers and fought under foreign standards; and if he ( Sir G. Evans) was a mercenary, so were they.—( Hear, ' hear, hear.) But he did not believe that anything serious was meant to be imputed to them on that ground. He knew of no difference upon a question like the present be . tween :the auxiliary forces under him and the officer of the Portuguese army. There was one difference, it was true, they had received all their pay, while the Legion had not— (Loud cheers) —and that pay was at the same time much better, and more even than the British army received. On the subject of pay, there was an accumulation of advantages to which, no doubt, the Portuguese officers were enticed, but which subjected them to the charge.—( Hear, hear.) He believed there was no instance in existence in which a body of troops sent from this country had been fol lowed up with aspersions and asperity as the British Legion had. No sooner was the force in the country—it had not been above a month or six weeks—for the purpose of continuing these disparagements, the parties of whom he complained began to draw comparisons between his raw recruits and that great army, and that Noble Commander, who had achieved such glorious victories on the same soil.—( Hear, hear, hear. ) That was a most monstrous injustice, even had they been all well trained. On the contrary, he was ready to admit that they were nearly all, both officers and non-commis sioned officers, utterly inexperienced, and the parties had no right to assail them in such an injurious manner. Considering the materials of which the force was com posed, and the short time it had been under training, there was great room fur both faith and hope as to its acts. ( Loud cheers.) He thought it necessary to protest against the com parisons which had been drawn as the very acme of iejustice. Having been about six weeks in the country they were ordered into action to assist at the siege of Bilboa. In a slieht ection which happened there in which the Legion 100 five men, with about twenty wounded, continuing the same ccurse of misrepresentation, it was immediately magnified into a great victory obtained by the Carlists. He bad further to observe, that notwithstanding these discouraging circum stances, and though those circumstances were very much augmented by one or two circumstances which he had notic,d, he had certainly still thought that an enter . prise of that description, apart from political feelings. would be looked upon with indulgence.—(Laud cheering ) The Duke of Wellington always acted with a great deal of "orbearance and generosity when he alluded to anything relat ing to military matters, and he ( Sir G. Evans) was bound to etfer his hunitle acknowledgements to his Grace fer the fo:- hearance he had shown on this subject ; but, at the same tim s, lie could not avoid remarking that a notice had been given in the House of Lords, by the Duke of Wellington, on this matter. He was aware, probably from the considera tion that it might occasion ernb;arra.sainent to the Gevernment, and perhaps . itcreeae the difficulties to the force about to be raised, that that motion was never carried into effect. Previous to that notice a great number of officers had stated that it was thcirietention to jolt, in the force, bet an unfavoursble ithpression was created throughout the me • tropolis and the country from the teriour of that notice of the - Duke or Wellington, end some of. them refused to join him 'here were sense circumstances he believed with regard to ',eve of absence from the army, which also created an unfavourable iraprrosion. He begged most expressly and distinctly to ,state that so far as his intercourse with the head of the army ( Lord Hill) went he had experienced nothing but the greatest politeness and considiretion. However the cir eumstances which he had mentioned materially aug teented the difficulties, and operated as moral obstacles to the efficiency of that force, much more then the physical difficulties that had been adverted to. 'the duration of the terviee of that lorce was not for two years. but in reality at the most only for eighteen months. They remained far a period of four months at Vittoria, and no very im portant operations toe k place at that time. His own name was adverted to in the public prints, and his conduct was aiiimadverted on as if he were a Commander-in-Chief, while at the same time he was acting under the directions of a su perior officer. Fin had performed his duties with satisfaction to the Government, and also to the General-in-Chief, under whose orders he had acted.--( Hear.) The Noble Lord, in alluding to that engagement, had stated that it was a second battle of Vittoria. He had complained of that expression, be cause an engagement of 4,000 or 5,000 mien could not be com pared to one in which 100.000 men were engaged—in which one of the most brilliant victories he ever heard of had been achieved. The affair at Vittoria was little more than a rnovelnent along the chain of the Rihiera mountains, and after an action which lasted some forty-eight hours the troops on both sides retired, the General-in-Chief of the Christino army failing back on Vittoria. In that action, which the Noble Lord represented as one of the most formidable description, be said the British Legion lost the whole of their artillery and baggage. No such thing. He could only tell the Noble Lord that he was misinformed, and that, in point of fact, the Legion lost nei ther artillery nor baggage.-. ( Hear, hear.) Imputations bad been cast on General' Cordova for alleged misconduct on this occasion ; but so far from there being any grounds for supposing that he acted with treachery towards the British auxiliary troops, he ( Sir G. Evans) must, in candour to that Gallant Officer, say that there was no foundetion whatever for the accusations made against him in the public prints and other quarters.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") On the con trary, as soon as he determined to retire he sent an Aide-de-Camp to him ( Sir G. Evans) ; but owing to a portion of the enemy occupying the wood through which he had to pass he was obliged to make a detour, and, therefore, could not reach his position until the next day. He was happy to say that General Cordova was wholly blame less, and that no imputation could rest upon him for his con duct in that instance.—(Hear, hear.) He would now ad -vert to the statement made with regard to the sickness at , Vittoria. That the sickness was great he did not deny, but he did not think it was such as to justify the obloquy cast upon those in chargo of the Legion. He believed that the object of the parties who had made those complaints was not so much to impute improper conduct to the officers at: the Legion as to throw discredit on the Spanish Government. He might be wrong, but that was his opinion. —( Hear, hear.) Now the number of the British Auxiliary Legion who had perished had been differently stated. By some it was said to consist of 15,000 men, and by others 12,000, but it had seldom been estimated under 10,000. It had been stated that 12,000 of the Legion had perished either in action or from sickness and disease, and that their bones law bleach ing on the hills. The number had never been stated at less than 4,000 or 5,000. He knew that statements of this kind! were always loosely made. The whole force of the Login e amounted to about 8,000 men, but having been reinforced b? - the recruits subsequently sent out at different periods he might state it at 9,600. The system of recruiting adopted by th agents of the Spanish Government was bad, and hence it was that they had so many men who were so tainted with disease or disability, as to be nearly wholly useless. This fact was important, as it had a strong bearing on the sickness which . afterwards took place. At least two-thirds of those men died `,in hospital without having done even a single day's duty, and that fact showed how the numerical strength of the Legion w has swelled by parties being included in the returns Who never ought to have been taken into account. The effective f orce :if the Legion did not exceed 4,700. The whole num ber of whe men who perished in Vittoria, and its environs, in six month); was 1,223, and the total loss in the two years, in cluding the killed and those who died of their wounds or from disease, amounted to about 2,078. This was out of the force of 9,600. The number who passed through the hose pitalt during that period was 1,430, and yet this was what the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had spoken of as a proof of unexampled sickness and mortality. The Hon. and Gallant Officer referred to a report made by Sir J. M'Uregor, in 1815, to show that a more extensive loss had .occurred in the British army owing to sickness and disease. With regard to the fate of the Legion, ae had been tasked what had become of them, and it had been stated that they had all perished, but was this the case? So far from tliere being any truth in this statement, he must beg leave to s i , ty that so soon as they received their pay from the Spanish G, wernment they would return to this country, and there were abo, .xt 6,000 of them who were entitled to gratuities for re ward's or other services.—( Hear.) They had many- difficul. ties to s eostend against. Some things were fair and others 1 were not in times of war, but he believed that the Carlist agents het ;this country had induced men to go out in the Legion purpose of deserting from it on their arrival in Spain, and merely for .the inducing others to follow their example.---( A lle laugh.) He had been informed, and strongly believed, that the fact was .et,.—(Laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh.") At all events, 350 of the men who had gone out in the Legion went over to the enemy; but it was well known that during the for.. men war a great number of desertions occurred. It been mode a ground of complaint that there was a want of certainty es:itit regard to the conditions in reference to the period of ser vice, and as tether it was for one or for two years. He re greemd this i. -nperfection as much as any one, but he had no thin( ; whateve.e to do with these conditions , as t he y bad been Or accepted the command. The number off :..(1 to be discharged was at first considers : subsequently, by means of permasion, rei s as not until he received orders to raise the n, which was blockaded by the Carlist self placed in a responsible position. He to wrest from the Carlists the advantages - , < . o . /! , , ;27;.12 Az a.. -s7 which they had gained, and to co-operate with the British • squadron, which for the first time took part in the contest. The duties assigned to him he performed to the best of his ability. The Right Honourable and Gallant Officer had dwelt on the unchristian practice of fighting on a Sunday, but had he forgotten that the battles of Vimiera, of Toulouse, of Wa terloo, and of other places, occurred on Sundays ?—( Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to the starvation so frequently alluded to. That was another charge which had been greatly exaggerated ; and, after all, what did it amount to ? Why, to that which was inevitable in the case of all armies engaged in actual warfare. One Noble Lord had stated that, on a particular occasion, the whole Legion went into action in a state of intoxication, and afterwards murdered their prisoners. He ( Sir G. Evans) could only say that there was no foundation for such a statement, and that it was wholly destitute of truth, for, so far from being in the state de scribed, the men returned from the action without fright, con fusion, or disorder, and no prisoners were murdered.— ( Hear, hear.) It was clear, then, that the Noble Lord wAs misinformed, and he therefore hoped that he would acknow- ledge his error. Lord NIA HON had made no statement of the kind. Sir G. DE LACY EVANS had understood that the Noble Lord had made some such statement, but whether that were so or not, he ( Sir G. Evans) had no wish to produce exaspe ration. As to what had been said about his want of skill, he cared nothing about that, because, while his conduct was dis approved of by his opponents, it was the subject of praise on the part of his friends and the Government under whom he served. He must now express his feelings of gratitude to the gentlemen who defended the Legion, when the subject was brought under discussion last year; and of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite ( Sir R. Peel), he was bound to say that throughout the debate he never uttered a word that could be hurtful to his feelings. The object of his present appeal was to show that injustice had been done to the troops under his com mand; and as to the excesses which it was said they committed, he could only say that they had been guilty of no description of crime which was not common in all armies. It had been complained that the Governmeut ought not to allow the Bri tish troops to be accustomed to scenes of demoralisation and blood such as existed in Spain ; but the Right Hon. and Gal lant Officer seemed altogether to forget the state of the Bri tish army in 1810. The Hon. and Gallant Member read a passage from a paper in his hand, in which it was said that the conduct of the British soldiers was at that period noto riously infamous, and that they had been guilty of murder, robbery, and perjury without the greatest chief that ever lived being able to repress those crimes.—( Hear.) It was quite true that he bad allowed the system of Provost; but he did so to render it unnecessary to inflict capital punishments, and he was satisfied that abstaining from capital punishments tended to diminish and not to increase crime.—( Hear.) Now, with respect to the complaint that had been made of the men not having received their pay, all he could say was that, with the exception of about one hundred and twenty, the whole of the officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates received the whole pay due to them down to the period he left. All those who had lost their limbs had received pensions, and though many had not received gratuities he did not think that was a sufficient ground for the complaints that had been made. Ile had the fullest confidence in the statement made in the other House of Parliament by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, that no efforts would be wanting on the part ' of her Majesty's Government to procure from the Spanish Go vernment the fulfilment of its engagements towards those men. He would now advert to a part of the subject on which, con sidering his pecular situation, lie was disposed to touch with the utmost delicacy, and that was with respect to the services rendered by the Legion. Part of the Legion had not arrived at St. Sebastian until the morning of the sth of May, and on that morning operations commenced which were so far successful that the chief of the Carlist forces was killed, and those forces themselves were driven front the lines which they occupied. The next operation was On the 28th of Mae, when the Legion took possession of the town and port of Pas , 'gee, which were of very great importance. The Honourable :a.lember proceeded to recount the various operations of the Legion whilst el:gaged under his command, and entered into a deLail of the operations of the IGth of March. This was in tended to have been a combined movement, but circumstances hsvicg arisen to delay the movement on the part of the columns under Espartos) and Saarsfield the operation on the part of the Legion (as we understood) was undertaken with a view of affording a columa under Searsfield moving through the ene my's country some chance of escaping from the combined at tack of the enemy's foxes. The Hon. Member for Hertford ( Lord Mehon) had stated that he considered the conduct of the Legiun in retreating before the enemy (as we understood) the greatest stain upon the British arms which bad been cast upon them for five or six hundred years. Now, he consi dered it hardly fair for the Noble Lord to have expressedthis opinion, that a retreat into their lines not exceeding a mile and a half was a stein upon the British arms, as if no troops had ever before retreated. During the Peninsular war there hat! been some retreats, and though that war was marked through out by the most glorious successes, it would surely not be fair to forget all the great victories achieved during the war, and to remember only its reverses. The Noble Lord (Lord Mahon) had written a history of a former war of succession in Spain, and in recounting the circumstance of a General with upwards of five thousand men having been forced to surrender to the enemy, the Noble Lord said that this was a General of acknowledged talent and greatreputation, who, by one of the accidents of war, had thus been reduced to the termination of his career, and this capitulation the Noble Lord said had arisen from no fault of this General. Now he thought the Noble. Lord ought to have extended this candour to the Legion, who had acted as bravely and as well as any troops whatever could have Acted. He (Sir G. Evans) was one of those who looked with the greatest respect to the military services of Viscount Beresford, and thought that he had rendered high and important military services to his coun try.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But in the early part of lis career that distinguished officer had met with reverses; but would it he fair, in contemplating his career, to look only to his adversities, and toforget his subsequent splendid mili tary services? He deuied the statement that the Marines had rendered to the Legion the services stated by the Noble Lord ; and upon this point he had only to refer to the despatch of Lord J. Hay. In point of fact the Marines did not, as had been erroneously stated, bear the brunt of the action upon the occasion referred to, and the best proof was they had only one man killed and about twenty wounded. With respect to the general question of the employment of the Marines, it was stated at the time that the employment of the Marines seven miles inland exceeded the limits of naval co-operation. However, when he served before with Marines in the Isle of France, and at Washington and Baltimore, both Ma rines and sailors were marched inland to an extent that to a very g reat degree indeed exceeded the extent t o which they had been employed on the coast of Spain. It might be said that the Legion had failed in their object, as they had not been able to terminate the civil war in Spain ; but when it was considered that this force did not average more than three or four thousand men it would be folly to expect from such a force anything more than auxiliary aid ; and he was happy to have it in his power to say that the Spanish Government were fully satisfied at the manner in which that aid had been effected. Nothing that had taken place with respect to the Q ,anish contest had given him (Sir G. Evans) more uneasi nest-I- than the charges made against the commanding officers of the Spanish army. He could only say on the part of those officers—particularly with respect to General Espartero_ that a more honourable, more faithful, or braver man, or a more true friend to his country, he ( Sir G. Evans) did not think was in existence. With respect to a former part of his statement there was one small item which he had omitted with respect to the deaths in the Legion. They never lost as pri soners even a corporal's guard, and not one piece of their 1 artillery had been taken possession of by the enemy. Forty seven of the Legion fell into the hands of the enemy, on ail of whom, be was sorry to say, the Durango decree had been put in force.—( Hear, hear.) Eleven hundred Carlists were taken prisoners by the Legion at different times, and all had their lives spared.—( Hear, hear.) And still Gentlemen on the other side could stand up and advocate the cause of the monster who could thus butcher British subjects.---( Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding great drawbacks the constitutional cause was malting sure progress in Spain, as a proof of which he could assert that all the great towns, even down to those of 10,000 inhabitants, were in favour of the Queen's Government. The nobility, too, with three exceptions, were all Liberals. He (Sir G. Evans) concluded by moving that the House do present an humble Address to her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously pleased to give directions for the production of all letters from the Spanish Government on tee subject of the war, in which the opinion of her Most Ca the-lie Majeoty is expressed as to the services of the British Auxiliary Legion. Sir HENRY HARDINGE had listened with the great est attention the speech of the Gallant Officer who lied just sat down,: and he must admit that he had performed his task of vindicating - the Legion in an extremely moderate manner. _( Hear.) At the same time, be must avow that, in so far as his (Sir H. Hardinge's) statemeusis were conccrncd, he did not find one word of refutation ; and he could assure the Hotase, as well as the Gallant Officer, that if he could not, froth incon trovertible documents, maintain those statements, he would take the earliest oportunity cf rising to withdraw them. But he had nothing to withdraw—nothing to retract. He made aloee statements on the authority of officers of the Legion; he had not heard any attempt to refute them ; and, therefore, without meaning any discourtesy to the Gallant Officer, he must beg to soy that he had nothing to withdraw. The Gallant Officer had complained of the obnoxious terms which the Conser vative press used in speaking of him. Could the Gallant Officer be surprised at it ? Had not the Gallant Officer made his public Letters to his constituents the vehicles for tirades against the Conservative party ? Had be not even in his military despatches abused the; arty;p and could he wonder that the papers in the interest of . that party had commented on his conduct with greater severity e s 'e e ee was palatable to the Gallant Officer—greater, perhaps, than eyes justifiable ? (" Hear, hear, hear," and .c Leers, ) But what could the Gal- 1 lant Officer expect? Two leenei„reet and fifty .o 1 veers of ttlee Legion returned to Euglarsel ,in ,dissnet, aid ,a neeessae:e consequence of this Was, tleNt Alec puh,lie : mind should I be filled with opinions, unfavourable .np;iaions, .of the Legion, and a great deal of ee.aggeration he etealt in by those who had left the Legion in disgeast.—.(Hear.) ;I: a n d e a Gallant l O ns ffi i a c n e r t alluded nthn afra t i o r a w t ha i i t ,,r la n e an ( i . S ix H H e . s H rt a a t r e d d ee• gel he (Sir 11. Ilardinge) had alluded in terms of rebuke to the feet of the Legion having been employed in skirmishing ' on Sundays. Now, at the time to which the Gallant Officer was nie , rel d y es P s r- i ? ib c ' e l: dlin i alhaeled he ( Sir H. Hardiree) to quote nassanee at Hernani, when he was interrupted' by a passage from Captain Hale's book, t am e Hir r op ec oi n e l a b i cheer from the Gallant Officer's side of the Hous y t not at all squeamish about fighting; on a Sunday, w '. hen n-eewe'sa sary—(" Hear. bear," and cheers)—and was merel reading from Captain Hale's hook—a book which he must y say wa g . written in the spirit of a gentleman—the passage in which he says that " On Sunday, the 30th of August, when the hearts , of his countrymen were elevated in prayer to Almighty God, l his brethren in the service were employed in s kirmishin g ." He ( Sir Henry Hardinge) saw nothing objectionable in t that—( Hear, hear, hear)—but the Gallant officer would allow him to observe that, as an officer, there was some thing very objectionable in taking out the troops on that day. If the Gallant Officer had any important military object in view it might be justifiable, but when the business was merely a reconnoissance it could have been quite as well on a Satur day or a Monday.—( Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer said that he had merely done it for exercise—that it was excellent practice—thus making it evident that he had no important military purpose in view, but merely wished to habituate his troops in reconnoitring. But on these skirmishing expe ditions the troops of the Legion were always accompanied by the Chapelgorris, a species of light troops, composed of the people of St. Sebastian, and between whom and the Basques no quarter was given. In his judgment it was extremely im prudent to commence the war with these troops, who were known to be so fierce that after every engagement they put their prisoners to death. He might be wrong in his statement of this fact, but his authority was the officers of the Legion. The Gallant Officer stated that the amount of sick at Vittoria was not so large as had been said. What he ( Sir H. Har dingo) stated was, that the number of men who had lost their lives by disease was about 500, which statement he took from Captain Hale's book ; in fact, every statement he made was on the authority of officers of the Legion.—( Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer also alluded to the book of Major Richardson ; that book had lain on the Gallant Officer's table for ten months, and the contents were never denied. He, therefore, thought he was justified in using it as an authority. And why ? Because Major Richardson stated that the book was published under the Gallant Officer's inspection, and with his consent, for the purpose of vindicating the character of the Legion from the calumnies of the Press.—( Hear, hear.) Was he not, then, authorised to refer to this book, written by an officer of the Legion, and approved of by the Gallant Officer himself ?—( Hear, hear.) Sir G. EVANS—There were two books. Sir H. H A RDINGE—He quoted from the book which had lain for ten months on the Gallant Officer's table. The passages about giving no quarter he took from the first edi tion. With respect to his observations about the sick, he thought the Gallant Officer had taken an erroneous v iew of them. What he complained of was, not of the deaths of the Legion caused by . legitimate service—it was not that the men had died—but that they had died unnecessarily.— ( Hear, hear.) Not of their sickness, but of the cause of that sickness—the cruel neglect of the Spanish Government. The Gallant Officer could not attempt to make a compari son between his troops in cantonments at Vittoria and the Peninsular army under the Duke of Wellington. What did Sir J. M'Gregor say of the thirteen months of the ser vice of the latter, comprising as it did four campaigns ? --( Hear, hear.) What was performed by the Duke of Wel lington's army during that time? It took Ciudad Rodrigo by storm, and captured Badajoz. Their next operation was a march t) Salamanca, and, after the battle there, the British army marched on Madrid, and forced 100,000 Frenchmen under Soult to concentrate there, the consequence of which was that Andalusia was left breathing-time, and great operations per formed. And they should consider, too, that the sick of that army had to march thirty, or sometimes fifty miles a-day, under a burning sun, to the hospital.—( Hear.) Of course a large number died ; but they (tied from the exigencies of the service, and everybody knew that in the summer the Spanish climate was often as bad as the West Indies. This was only the second campaign ; in the third they commenced operations at Vittoria, and after the battle of Pampeluna, proceeded to the Pyrenees. These were g reat operations.—( Hear.) In the fourth campaign they marched into the :French territory, fighting the battle of Orthes, and closing with that of Tou louse, at which he believed the Gallant Officer was severely wounded. Surely there was no similarity between the cases. —( Hear, hear.) But he ( Sir H. Hardinge) could state a similar case, the case of an army of cantonments—that of Sir William Clinton. In August, 1827, 5,000 men under that officer went to Portugal, and remained there in canton ments a year. What took place there ? While the average deaths amongst the Legion at Vittoria were as one in five, in Portugal the deaths were in all thirty-three, or one in sixty-six for six months. .But he had another statement, that of Sir James M'Greeor. That officer stated that, in the army of the Duke of 'Welliegton, the number of deaths from December 13 to June 14, was 2,016, exclusive of wounded cases, and this in an army of 60,000 men. He begged the House to note that the army was stationed in the same loca lity as the Legion, and suffered deaths only in the proportion of one to thirty, while those of the Legion were as one to five. The only difference: was, that the army of the Duke of IVel lingon lived in tents. He must say that these comparisons brought forward to excuse the calamities of the Legion did not apply. The Gallent Officer had attempted to extenuate the conduct of the Spanish Government. What did Dr. Al cock say on that subject ? Ile said that the number of deaths in the Legion was 1.300 out of 7,000, besides which 500. were incapacitated from duty, and thus 1,800 men were not fit for the service. From this circumstance he thought he was jus tified in saying that the sufferings of the Legion were unneces sarily great. He would now state the circumstances in which the Legion was placed in Vittoria. The Gallant Officer, al though he ( Sir H. Hardinge 1 might not think highly of his iudgment in accepting of such a command, with his slight ex perience, was not to blame for leaving them there—the impo- Viey lay with the Noble Lord opposite.—(Cheers.) On him only rested the responsibility. Now, there was a book written by a Brigadier-General in the Legion, and he (Sir Henry Hardinge) had taken pains to extract some passages which were very much to the point in dispute—namely, whether our countrymen fell a sacrifice fairly and honourably, as soldiers, or to the unnecessary and cruel neglect of the Spanish Govern ment ? What did General Shaw say ? That the sick died from the total absence of comfort ; that there were but 400 beds in the hospital; that no officer visited them ; that tile filth was dreadful ; that there were no blankets ; and that those who did venture in were nearly knocked down by the effluvia; that the men were often left four days without a surgeon, and that seventeen men were left in a dark room for 48 hours, whilst suffering from a severe dysentery.—( Hear. ) Now, he would ask, with all the excuse the Gallant Officer could make, were not these dreadful events attributable to the policy of the Government that sent the men there ? ( Hear, hear.) What did Major Hale say ? That the Legion suffered at Vittoria from want of food and want of clothing ; He then spoke of the bad faith of the Spanish Government. Theie were the statements which he ( Si r H. Hardinge) used last year, and these were his authorities. Had the Gallant Officer impeached those authorities? Had he impugned those statements ? He ( Sir H. Hardinge) had not heard him do so. There was another authority which he would take the liberty of quoting on this subject, one which the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, if in his place, would recognise—lie meant Sergeant Somerville.—( A laugh.) This Somerville w as flogged while in the Scotch Greys, after which a subscription of 100/. was raised for him by the Liberal party ; he went to Spain and wrote a book, in which he describes what took place in Vittoria. The sufferings he enumerates were dreadful. Many of the men were described as severely frost-bitten. The whole presented a living mass of corruption. The dead and the quick were huddled together, and even in the sight of the living the very rats came forth to prey upon the carcases and to take their part in the work of destruction.—( Hear, hear.) For this terrible mortality the Government which sent these unhappy men out to meet their deaths were surely answerable. —( Loud cheers.) The Gallant Officer had argued that deaths were contingent to all armies, but surely they were not contingencies recurring in such proportion. He also spoke as if the men were well fed and that there was no destitution. Now a reference to Colonel Humphrey's book would show that they were quite scant of clothing, and their destitution was further testified by General O'Connell, a brave and resolute officer, who threw up his commission in consequence of the treatment of the troops under his command. According to that gentle man the conduct of the Spanish Government was most infamous. Colonel Shaw, in his book, stated that when the troops in Portugal were about to embark on their return home they were disarmed and treated as convicts. How were they treated at St. Sebastian ? They were told by the order isssaed by the Secretary-at-War, and published in the papers. After being defrauded of their pay—after enduring every ws'mt and every privation, the direction in the order was that they should be compelled to embark if they did not do so willingly. —(Hear, hear, hear.) The entire conduct of 'the Spanish Government with respect to those men was most in famous.—(:Cheers.) He would next advert to the matter as in a military 100 int of view, though from the temperate spirit of the Gallant Officer he should feel pained at being obliged to do so. He :must, however, say that he differed with the Gal lant Officer ;as to his system of applying corporal punishment. The disciplit ie of the Legion was conducted in a manner not justified by the Articles of War. At St. Sebastian the men were subject t ,cl to the punishment of two dozen lashes at the will of the officer s.—(,Hear.) Any competent witness testifying as to any crimie ,al act, the man was whipped at once. Thus a sum mary v i unisb ment was always to be applied at the pleasure of any of' the t )fficers. Indeed, General Shaw went further, and stated t'nat this punishment could be inflicted by subalterns. . {Hem, bear.) Thus, at the mere will of a subaltern, an old Water! , to man might be subjected to two dozen lashes.— (Hear,ee r mangenc tyn, the and fact.ev en t l h n e n lB th t 0 1 bear.) The Provost system in the British army was t ses cat o e f h e t ni li Provost •sel the Duk . .e of Wellington issued an order that on no account should t he officers order the Provost-sergeant to flog a waspsma. only re! torleatnot in m n e s e —( Heat ~ hear.) The system adopted in the Legion monstroi as exercise of power, and he must be forgiven if he d his astonis hment at seein g it ado p ted b y one who expresse had alto tys professed himself fav d ourable to the total abolition of flogging in the army.—( Lou cheers.) Before he went out to S I min the Gallant Officer had in 1834 voted against military i legging. The Gallant Officer was of course en titled to es itertain his own opinion, but when he found him self at th• e head of 4,000 or 5,000 men, it was not to he won dered at th a ; s he was compelled to make his practice different teem his tis eory.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He hoped these ,;he Gall ant Officer would be able to give a satisfactory explanation e f this matter in the course of his reply. And hi also h o pe i that, though the practice of flogging was will of an individual.— ,neoseeeer rto the service and indispensable for the preserva tion of ,d lira amongst 4,000 men, the cases which had spec' Spain would be the last men of British occurred VI egged4,slineatthecapricious roofs be ine;; e • , far that Major Dixon c(Cheere. ) It was carried so a man wl len dirty or not fit for parade was ordered two dozen . He (Sir IL Beit' in g e) had stated last year that the Legion mutinied because of not receiving their pay, and in consequence of disput ss as to the time of service. The instances of down rieht mu tiny given in Gene ral Shaw's book were e n dless.— (Hear, h ear.) The Durango decree had been alluded to as if those on his ( Sir H. Hardinge's) side of the House had wished ts , palliate it. For his own part, he had always de nouced tas an assassir-like ec ree— Loud cheerin )—nd had said that Don Carlos h d ad dislu -( alified himself for a the Throne of Spain in consequence of having issued it. His Right Hon. Friend beside him, too, ( Sir R. Peel) had said in his place that no earthly advantage could possibly accrue to this country by the success of Don Carlos. Why, then, was it insinuated that those on his side of the House had palliated the Durango decree? Horrors and atrocities there were on both sides ; and he ( Sir H. Hardinge) had it from a gentle man whose son served in Spain that troops were frequently sent out at night to seize upon and burn the Carlist villages, and put the men to death. Further, with respect to this Durango decree the Gallant Officer stated in a letter addressed to his constituents of Westminster that it was an insult to the national power of this country. If so, with whom was the fault? Was it they (the Opposition) or the Gentlemen on the other side of the House who submitted to the insult ?—(Loud cheers.) The Gallant Officer, in speaking of the disaster at Hernani, argued that retreats were common to all armies. From the Gallant Officer's account the exertions of the Legion were not very great; and if he ( Sir H. Hardinge) had said anything severe against the Legion the severity was not equal to that conveyed in the terms of the Gallant Gen tleman's own despatch. The Gallant Gentleman described the first battalion as having given way on the instant , a nd yielding up a position from which they might have destroyed the enemy—that the disorder gained ground—arid that no efforts of the officers could again rally them. Surely from the Gallant Officer's own account he ( Sir H. Hardinge) was warranted in concluding that such men could never prove ef fective.—( Hear, hear.) They were opposite a force not their superiors in number. There were five thousand British troops, including the Marines, and nine thousand Spanish troops. There were sixteen pieces of British artillery, well served, and ten pieces of Spanish artillery. Such was the force, and yet those on his ( Sir H. liardinge's) side of the House who had spoken of the panic did not impute so much blame as the Gallant Officer.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He hoped the statement was exaggerated. He ( Sir H. Har dinge) had not intended to exaggerate it. When the Gallant Officer compared the retreats which had taken place during the Peninsular war with the disaster at Hernani he should re member that disasters were always unfortunate, whilst a retreat might be a most brilliant achievement. In the whole of the peninsular war in which he had been engaged with his illustri ous Commander the British army never attacked a position which it did not carry, nor defended one which it d'd not main tain.—(Loud cheers.) He must say that the conduct of the Government with respect to the British Legion was exceed.; ingly erroneous, and that the lives of the men who had been thus sacrificed were thrown away in a most unjustifiable' manner.—( Cheers.) Discredit, too, had been thrown upon the military character of England, notwithstanding the courage of the men and officers engaged in that unfortunate expedition. —( Hear, hear.) Misery and ruin had been brought down upon the families of the men and officers who had been in duced to join it, and the House would not do its duty by the country unless it marked its disapprobation of the whole pro ceeding.—( Cheers.) He hoped his Noble Friend the Mem ber for East Cornwall, who had been sent out on a mission to Spain, ‘A hich he had so well executed, and who was, of course, well acquainted with all relating to that country, would bring forward some motion on the subject, and take the sense of the House upon it. The Right Hon. Baronet concluded amidst loud cheers. Lord E LIOT would state to the House the course he in tended to pursue. He would not enter into the military part of the question, but he would take the earliest opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the subject. He felt the more inclined to do so, as since the question was last discussed a new Parliament had been assembled, and to give the fullest scope to inquiry his motion would be to call the attention of the House to the course of policy pursued by her Majesty's Government with respect to Spain. Sir R. H. VIVIAN would not deny that there had been much suffering amongst the Legion, and he would also admit that there had been great want of attention in the hospitals ; but if Hon. Gentlemen would revert to the past history of our ossn armies, it would be found that on various occasions the suffering had been as great—that the sick had been as nume rous, and were obliged to undergo privations almost as great s those endured by the Legion. In respect to the question of corporal punishments in the army, he ( Sir Hussey Vivian) was not prepared to say whether the measures taken by his Hon. and Gallant Friend were strictly according to the Arti cles of War or not—(Cheers from the Opposition)—but un der any circumstances he thought that great allowances should be made for the situation in which his Honourable and Gallant Friend was placed. He ( Sir H. Vivian) would not go at any length into a comparison of the corps commanded by t he Duke of' Wellington in Spain, and that under the com mand of his Hon. and Gallant Friend, for he had always con sidered it a disadvantage to his Hon and Gallant Friend to have to command any corps on ground rendered glorious by the deeds of that illustrious individual. But the circumstances un der which his Hon. arid Gallant Friend had taken the com mand entrusted to him, and the nature and quality of the force he had to direct and govern, should be properly esti mated before coming to any conclusion on the subject. Land ing as they had done in a country where every man was their enemy, except those with whom they acted—( Cheers from the Opposition benches)—he (Sir H. Vivian) understood that cheer, and it only fortified him in the belief that her Majesty's Government had done perfectly right in affording to the Spanish Government that assistance which they had a distinct right to call on under the faith of treaties. The Hon. and Gallant Member then entered into a recapitulation of the history of the Legion while in active service, on the authority of officers of undoubted credit, and professed to prove that his Hon. and Gallant Friend could not have acted better than he did, nor the Legion either. Out of sixteen actions in which that Bon. and Gallant Officer and the Legion had been en gaged, they were unsuccessful in two only, namely, in the attack on Fontarabia and in the affair of Hernani. All through the part of the war in which they had been engaged their con duct had been most remarkable for courage and humanity, not withstanding the cruelties daily perpetrated on their fellow soldiers by the Carlists, when they fell into their hands as prisoners. Thus was that gallant Legion so disparaged in this country by a corrupt party, and a profligate press, who had both spoken their worst of them. Lord MA HON had no complaint to make in regard of the manner in which the Hon. and Gallant Officer had introduced' his name into the observations he hail thought proper to make - . —it was marked with courtesy, and he ( Lord Mahon) hoped' that in the same spirit it should be met by him. The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman had said that he ( Lord Mahon) stated on a former occasion that a great number of the Legion had at one time gone into action drunk. Now the fact was that lie had never stated any such thing. The Hon. and Gallant Gen tleman had also said that he (Lord Mahon) and those Hon. Members on his side of the House had reserved all their pity for the soldiers of the Legion, as regarded the stoppage of their pay, until the Spanish Government, by refusing to pay them, left them in distress; but he ( Lord Mahon) could spee dily convince the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman that such was not the case, especially as regarded himself ; for in the debate of the 24th of June, 1833, he ( Lord Mahon) had expressed "a wish to know who would secure to the soldiers of the Le gion the pay for which they had contracted." He had also showed that " many of the men had joined that corps in the belief that their pay, and all other contingencies, were gua ranteed by the British Government, and that it would be a great hardship on them to find no compensation when they had given their services ; and no mode of recovering it in case anything should occur." He (Lord Mahon) was not compel tent to enter on the military part of the ques tion, and, there= fore, those were the only parts of the Hon. and Gallant Gen tleman's speech which he felt called on to answer. The po litical question involved in the whole transaction would be a subject of discussion on a future day; and he should reserve any observations he had to make on it until then. Mr. TENNYSON D'EYNCOURT condemned the ne gligence of the Spanish Government in permitting such a state of hostility to the Legion as had been manifested in Spain; but at the same time he considered her Majesty's Mi nisters had acted with good faith in keeping the terms of the treaty with it. The topic, however, which he should touch on was the deficiency of the payment. There was no doubt whatever that on that part of the business the Spanish Government did not do right.--( Hear, hear.) He should not allude to the second Legion further than to say that he believed a great number of the men were at large on the shores of Spain, in the extremity of dis tress described by the Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite. The feelings of his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) he (Mr. T. D'Eyncourt) well knew when it was asserted and uncontradicted that these men had been invited to enlist in the Legion by the Order in Council; and he thought, therefore, that every attention should be paid to the claims of these de serted individuals by his Noble Friend. It was the bounden duty of her Majesty's Government to enforce on the Spanish Government the necessity of keeping faith with these helpless men, who had poured out their blood in its service.—( Hear.) At this 'clement there was not less than from 200,0001. to 250,0001. due to the Legion. Sir R. INGLIS held that no body of men had a right to destroy the lives of their fellow-creatures without lawful com mands to that effect. In the present instance he totally de nied the legality of the command under which the Legion had ac ted. He had beard , it was true, of an Order in 'Council which invited the men to enlist ; but that did not alter the case ; it only transferred the guilt of an unrighteous war from the Honourable and Gallant Officer to her Ma-. jesty's Ministers. Too much or too little had been done in the matter. Colonel DAVIS believed that the Government in this country were right in the course of policy they had adopted on this occasion, notwithstanding that the conduct of Spain in not fulfilling the engagements she had entered . into with the Legion could not be for a moment justified. Captain BOLDER() said that the lion. Member for Lam beth was quite right in throwing the whole blame on the Spanish Government. However, he forgot when he com plained of the severe animadversions directed against the Gallant Member for Westminster that lie had left the claims of the widows, orphans, and wounded soldiers of the Legion unsettled at St. Sebastian, and unadsocated at home, though a considerable amount was still due to them. He thought that the Hon. Member in neglecting that duty exhibited a want of feeling, of justice, and of generosity, highly discreditable.— ( Hear.) The scenes at Vittoria proved his total unfitness to conduct a campaign in Spain, and too late conveyed a lesson of his rashness in neglecting the advice he had received pre vious to his departure to lay in proper and sufficient stores. He highly eulogized the conduct of the Marines employed on that coast : but, considering the character of the struggle, lie had come to the conclusion that the only creditable way for England to get out of this unhappy strife was to withdraw her n aval forces altogether, and let the bloodthirsty scoundrels fight it out amongst themselves. When Captain Napier went out and took Don Miguel's fleet be did not act in such an ungenerous way towards the brave men who sustained him. He staid to see them settled ; acid, if the Portuguese Government had not done them justice, would, he was convinced, have come away with the fleet he had taken, and raised the needful on it.— ( Hear, and laughter.) How did the Gallant Officer opposite act in similar circumstances? He left his men unpaid at St. Sebastian, either to be starved into the Spanish service that withheld their pay, or shoved aboard at the point of the bayonet. Mr. CHARLES WOOD said that Lord John Hay had assured him that nothing of the kind could have occurred at St. Sebastian, for each man left there had only been enlisted of his own free-will, as had been ascertained in the presence of a British officer. About 80 of the best men had re-enlisted. He was happy to say that every private and non-commissioned officer had been paid up to the day of their discharge, with marching money. The pensions to the widows and orphans had also been paid up regularly, and what was still due to that class was only their gratuities. Lord PAL NIE LISTON thought his Hon. and Gallant Friend had been entirely successful in repelling the imputa tions cast on himself and others under his command. He thought they should not have any repetition of those imputa tions. His Hon. Friend had called attention to the sub ject of the claims of the officers of the Legion yet un settled by the Spanish Government. He could assure him that they had not escaped the attention of her Ma jesty's Government, and he believed he might say that their affairs were now in a satisfactory train towards a settlement. There were large balances undoubtedly due to them by the Spanish Government. He could not say the pre cise sum, as the Spanish Government had not yet furnished the account. They (the Ministers) had most urgently appealed to that Government to attend to these claims and settle them without delay. It was at one time intended to establish a Commission for this purpose in Madrid, and at another in San Sebastian, but it was now determined more convenient to hold it in London. However, the Spanish Government had consented, without waiting to investigate the claims of each individual, to send a large sum for the relief of their imme diate wants. He was happy to confirm the statement of his Hon. Friend who had preceded him respecting the payments already made to the privates, non-commissioned officers, widows, and orphans of the Legion, and hoped that, in a little time, those of the officers would also be liquidated. He hoped that, the Noble Lord would give them a few days' notice of his motion, and be prepared to state the day on which he would bring it on. Sir G. EVANS explained that the Noble Lord was in error in his imputations respecting his ( Sir G. Evans's) con duct on leaving St. Sebastian on the 10th of June, 1837. The men said they would wait to see if the money due to them would come or not. He had no concern with the plan of the Spanish Government to recruit among the Legion, and .no reason to stay any longer there.—( A laugh.) The money did come, the men were paid—some returned with it, and some staid to re-enlist. Some Hon. Members opposite said that the service of the Spanish Government was so bad that our men should not be suffered to enlist in it.—( Hear, hear.) But these men were free agents, and we had no power to prevent them if they would. On the subject of corporal punishments, he must beg leave to say a word. The Right Hon Member opposite doubted if the Provost system was legal, as applied to the army. Now, he would not go past the authority of the Duke of Wellington, the finest of all authori ties such a subject. He stated in his evidence before the Parliamentary Committee, that there was no authority for it beyond the custom of the British Army, and that it was impos sible to carry on the discipline of that army without a consider able extension of it. Sir H. HARDINGE said that the Gallant Member had both misunderstood him and misapplied the authority of the Duke of Wellington. What he had especially complained of, and what the Noble Duke had never done or sanctioned, was the empowering every subaltern in his army to inflict the punishment of the lash at his pleasure.—(llear, hear.) Its defence came with an especial bad grace from the Gallant Member, who bad himself, in his place, advocated its aboli tion.—( Cheers.) Sir G. DE LACY EVANS said it was perfectly true that he had advocated the repeal of corporal punishment, but in doing so he declared that he would not consent to abolish it except under certain conditions. In the evidence he gave ite fore the Commission appointed to inquire into the snbjcct, e expressly stated it as his opinion that it could only be done gradually, and that it would be impracticable to do it sud denly in an army in actual service ; and to this opinion he still adhered. Sir H. HARDINGE observed that the question was one which they would have an opportunity of discussing on an other day. The motion was then agreed to. Mr. JAMES, at the request of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, postponed his motion for returns connected with the Church until after Easter. REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. WOULFE, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the laws relating to the Registration of Voters in Ire land, said, that the law of Ireland on this subjoct was very stringent, and a party claiming to be placed upon the registry was obliged to submit to a rigid scrutiny before his right could be allowed. By the law as it stood, every person claim ing the elective franchise was subject to this scrutiny, with the exception of the 50/. freeholders, and those of the Clergy who claim the right of voting in respect of their benefices. They were bound to give public notice of their intention to be placed on the registry thirty days before the Quarter Ses sions, and in this notice they must specify the particulars 'of their title to the qualification in respect of what they claimed, and prove their right in each case. It was not his intention to alter the law in this respect, but instead of allowing the right of appeal from the adjudication of the Revising Barris. ters to one party only, he proposed that it should be extended to both. At present the appeal lay only when the decision was unfavourable to the claimant. There was another point which he proposed should also be altered, and that was the right of a party to remain on the registry for eight years, notwithstanding he had parted with his quaiifica. tion or changed his domicile.—( Hear, hear.) It was not his intention to take the revision of the lists out of the hands of the assistant barristers ; but instead of sitting in each county every year, he meant that, though they should have their Courts yearly, their duty should be so arranged as that they would sit in each county only every two years.- He thought there could be no objection to the assistant barristers on the ground of partiality, as many of these gentlemen had been appointed by former Administrations, and more than a majo rity of them were opposed to the present Government. Now, with respect to the Court of Appeal, what he proposed was this--that when a question of law arose respecting the right of the party claiming to be on the registry the assistant bar risters should draw up a case, stating the facts, and then refer the matter for decision either to the Court of Queen's Bench or to some other Court where it could be fully and properly . argued. The question of value was that resp ectin g which the - greatest difficulties arose, and it was clear that it could only be dealt with satisfactorily in the way which he proposed. There was great difference of opinion regarding beneficial in terests ; and although he took his own view of the law on the subject, he was aware that others entertained a contrary opi nion. 1-Its, however, wished the matter to be fully and fairly discussed, as it was a point so important that it ought to be settled on way or the other.—(hear, hear.) • Lord ST ANL E Y said, the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman was in error in supposing that the Irish Reform Bill adopted the present system of registration as one of its charac teristics. On the contrary, what he said was, that when they had tested the experiment made in England it was their in tention to assimilate the law between the two countries as far: as circumstances would allow. ( Hear, hear.) The first ques tion of difficulty lay at the root of the evil. They had not in : Ireland, though he hoped they shortly would, any test for de termining the question of value ; and what was the result? Why, hard swearing before the Committees of that House on the one side as well as on the other—in support of as well as against the claim. —( Hear.) He was not desirous of raising any unnecessary difficulties in the way of this Bill; but it was, at the same time, his duty to mention any fundamental difficulty which appeared to him to be connected with it, and which required the utmost caution, on the part of the House, in endeavouring to surmount it.—( Hear, hear.) He did not consider that the Bill required any expedition to be used in its passage through the House—( Hear, hear) — but, on the contrary, that it would require to be watched with the greatest possible circumspection ; and he was particularly anxious, before it passed, to know the fate of another very im portant measure relating to a similar subject. That Bill once passed, and they would have no excuse for building upon sand when a sure foundation was afforded them. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that the benefits attached to the pre sent law of appeal were all on one side, and he proposed to subject all the present constituencies of Ireland to these Ap peal Courts—that cases of law should be referred to the Judges, and cases of taxes to these Courts. He intimated that at an annual registration it would not be allowable to enter into all these statements; but he (Lord Stanley) wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman if a voter once re gistered, and having a decision of the two barristers constitut ing the Court of Appeal in his favour, should remain on the register for life ?—( Hear, hear.) Mr. WOULFE said—No ; only for eight years, in accord ance with the present system. Lord STANLEY would admit that the explanation of the Right Hon. Gentleman had done away with very much of his objections to the measure.--( Hear, hear.) If, however, it were necessary that they should have a system in Ireland simi lar to the one in England, in his opinion it would be better that voters should be brought to a test of their vote before an annual tribunal, rather than that they should be called upon for it at intervals of eight years.—( Hear, hear.) Gentlemen on that side of the House were in favour of opening the Re gister, while Hon. Gentlemen opposite were opposed to doine. so ; and whenever, in the case of a disputed election, the question of whether or not the Register should be opened was discussed, according to the result of the decision of the Com mittee on that point, an almost positive opinion might be given as to how the Committee would decide on the petition itself. —( Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman that it was of the deepest importance that the legal question should be satisfactorily settled, and he pledged himself that the details of the measure should be discussed on his side of the House, in the same spirit as that in which the measure was now brought for ward by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL characterised the speech of the Noble Lord as a speech full of party feeling—(" No, no," from the Opposition side)—and one which was more fit for one of the Committee-rooms up stairs than that House. It was agreed on all hands that the present system was bad, and this Bill professed to find a remedy for it. He agreed, however, with the Noble Lord, that it required much deliberation, ant hoped that after this little outbreak of party feeling{ the would conic, at a future opportunity, to a calm considetatic of the subject. Sir R. BATE SON did not consider that there had; bei any exhibition of party feeling on his side of the Heusi, a that if there had been any provocation to it, it had prodpecl from the Hon. Gentleman on the other side of the fleti4e w had just sat down.---( Hear, hear.) Ile objected to the Tippl from the registration Courts being left to be made to I Barristers. e osi* - Sir W, FOLLETT said that all parties in that [kW' • en ind led rho were satisfied of the imperfection of the present system, and he thought that the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman ap peared to be a great improvement upon it ; but he did not think it was wise to propose that the registry should be final for eight years, and he did not see why, in that respect, the cases should be different in Ireland and in England, because in times of great political excitement a large number of voters might be placed upon the register for a period of eight years—( Hear, hear )—who had no right whatever to be there at all. The English mode of valuation was the only satisfac tory one, and he was quite sure that the Right Hon. Gentle man would never be able to pass such a proposition through that House.—( Hear.) He warned the Right Hon. Gentle man against it, as it would be re-opening the door to that very system of perjury which they had so long seen exposed before the Irish Election Committees. There was another clause which required consideration. He die not think they would ever come to any thing like a satisfactory mode of try ing controverted elections until that House parted with all ad judication upon the subject.—( Hear, hear.) He should pro test, however, against the adoption of any principle having the effect of taking away from that House all decisions as to Irish elections, and leaving it with regard to English and Scotch elections.—( Hear, -hear, hear.) That point was one which required great consideration, arid he did not think it was one on which the Right Hon. Gentleman would find the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department go along with him.—( Hear, hear,) He ( Sir W. Follett) thought that an inquiry as to whether the House ought to part with its adjudication on election petitions ought to form a part of the general plan with reference to this Bill—( Hear, hear) — as well as whether, in parting with such a power, they ought to place it in the hands of men holding their appointments directly from the Government.—( Hear, hear.) That he thought constituted a very strong objection to the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman, however good it might be in many respects.—( Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir W. Follett) had attached a meaning to the words of his Noble Friend which they did not admit of. On the occasion of the Controverted Elections Bill of the Hon. Member for Liskeard being before the . House his Noble Friend said, with respect to a proposition to part with the jurisdiction of the House in cases of controverted elections, that whenever such a subject came to be considered he hoped that the House would consider with caution what would be calculated to produce one of the greatest changes in the jurisdiction of the House that had taken place for the last two hundred years. But with regard to the second objec tion respecting the finality of the registry, the Right Hon. Gentleman carried his argument too for in saying that to make the registry final would be to abandon the jurisdiction of the House. Now, he did not think so. They were quite distinct, and it was not now for the first time that a proposi tion to make the registry final had been discussed in that House. A proposition had been made to make the registry in England final, and in the discussion of that proposition it was never suggested by any that in doing so the House of Commons would thereby estop itself. Undoubtedly, if they made the registry final, they would thereby limit their juris diction, but it would by no means limit the House of Com mons with respect to many other grounds upon which elec tions might be controverted. Making the registration final and abdicating the jurisdiction of the House were quite dis tinct, and one might be carried into effect without going the ength of proposing the other. After a few words from Sir W. FOLLETT in expla- nation, Mr. LITTON wished to take that opportunity to call the attention of the House to the fact that ten out of the twelve Judges in Ireland, on deliberate consideration, and after hear ing the arguments of Counsel for two days on the construction of the Reform Bill, had decided that the value as to freehold was to be determined by what it would bring if sold, and as to leasehold, by what it would let for to a solvent tenant. There certainly were two of the Judges who entertained a different opinion, but these were the two junior Judges, and both of them held office under the present Government. Those who agreed in that opinion included the ten senior Judges of the Irish bench. The criterion of value was what they stated it to be, and not what it was stated to be in the declaratory clauses of the present Bill. Mr. WOULFE was sure that the Noble Lord (Lord Stan ley) and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite ( Sir W. Follett) did not intend by is hat had fallen from them to influence others out of the House, but certainly it was calculated to have that effect. What they had said was calculated to affect the opi nions of individuals sitting out of the House in another ca pacity. Ile did not think that anything he had said justified. such a course, for he had abstained from any argument on those disputed points, and had merely said that great difference of opinion 'prevailed respecting them, which it was desirable to have settled. The Noble Lord the Member for North Lan cashire to the opinions he had expressed had added the weight of his personal authority, by stating that, if he were sitting ors a Committee he would feel himself bound to act on that con struction of the law that the registry was open to scrutiny by a Committee of the House of Commons. Now , he ( Mr- Woulfe) entertained quite a different view from that held by the Noble Lord. In his opinion a Member of a Conunititeat would be bound to act on that construction of the sta tutes t la a Committee of the House of Commons had no power to oven the registry in Ireland. It was true that the Judges in 'Fe land had given an opinion different from him on the questiott of value. (" Ten out of twelve.") Yes, he admitted that. they were unequally divided—( A laugh) —but surely the' opinions of Judges Perrin and Richar ds could not be lightly' spoken of. The Right lion. Gentleman proceeded to con tend that the words "beneficial interest" had not been lightly or inaptly introduced into the Reform Bill, and that these words were intended to admit a construction different from that given under former Acts, and bore that construction which was given them in the declaratory clauses of the present Bill. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said that if there was any quest tion which ought to be considered satisfactorily settled, it was the question with respect to the meaning of " beneficial inte rest." Could there be any fact more emphatic on this point than this, that one of the ten Judges who concurred in the on put upon those words was Mr. Justice Crampton, who was law-officer in Ireland whilst the Reform Bill was 14 transitu, and who must have known what were the intentions, of the Legislature and what the construction of th e law vras, He was glad, however, that the Bill had been brought in, an' would give it a fair and candid consideration. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. BELFAST LUNATIC ASYLUM. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON moved for copies of all corre spondence which has taken place between the Irish Govern ment and the governors or officers of the Belfast Lunatic tha AsY; lum, respecting the case of Robert Brakley, sent to asylum by order of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland , from 111,0 gaol of the county of Down, in April, 1836 ; together mat c opies of all resolutions of the said governors, touching tba cas e, transmitted to the Irish Government. There was n a practice in Ireland of the Executive Government taking n P °- themselves to order the reception of persons into these ass" lums contrary to the provisions of an Act of Parliame nt, which limited the right to certain cases. The case with re spect to which he moved for these papers was one of an aggr a „' vated nature. A man had been sent to the asylum, and, wilt" admitted there, was told by the medical attendants that De ought to be sent back to his friends, as he was not insane., The governors of the institution called on the Gover nment for his discharge, and so much delay occurred that from the excitement and anxiety caused by the delay the man ultimateli became insane, and died raving mad. He thought this was a question of public importance, and he now moved for the pro duction of the correspondence referred to. Lord MORPETH had no objection to the production 1 these papers. He feared, however, that when the papers were produced it would appear that there was some delay owing to some misapprehension on the part of one of the clerks in the Irish Office. Delay had undoubtedly taken pla, , in several quarters, and lastly on the part (as we understoo arii of the Governors of the Lunatic Asylum. There w as a irregularity in the original committal which must be laid at , the door of the Chief Baron. Mr. Brakley was co mmitte d to the gaol of Down, but on the representation of the gaoler was removed to the Belfast Lunatic Asylum. After sot' . further statement of the circumstances of the case the Nobw Lord stated that he had no objection to the production of th e papers moved for. Sir R. BATE SON made a few observations conden v natory of the circumstances under which the unfortun ate individual was admitted into the Belfast Lunatic Asylnn?' and of the delay that took place respecting the order for lila discharge. The motion was agreed to. Mr. MORGAN J. O'CONNELL had a petition to present respecting the Belfast Election, from the Agent...,l the petitioners deending the return of Lord Belfast ';; Mr. Gibson, complaining of demands made by the p rose , „ sitting Members for Belfast and their Agent for certain ,_ penses, &c. He should merely move that the petition i'' printed with the Votes. After a few words from Mr. DUNBAR and Colonel PF" CEVAL, Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL postponed the presentation 49f the petition until this day. SUPPLY. , v o t es The Report of the Committee on the unobjectionable was brought up and agreed to. DISSENTERS' RELIEF BILL. Th e SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the secon d ro t ing of this Bill. He stated that a Bill had been introduce._ by the Hon. Member for Leeds for the same object , the Pr,°vse sloes of which did not include assessors. Several of tlci officers had been lately elected, and it was to extend the relief to them that the present Bill was introduced. The Bill was then read a second time; after which tl'°- House adjourned at Five Minutes past One o'Ccloc___.—...--_-!.!k. PATENT LEVER WATC H With silver double-bott om cases Di 6 S 6 16 With silver hunting cases hid) This celebrated c ons t ruc ti on (the most accurate on s, watch can be mad e ) i s offered, with the latest,improveroen d i. e. the detached escapement, jewelled in four holes, "Prior hand to mark the seconds, hard enamel dial, and maintaining P' to continue going while winding up, at the above price, by T. COX SAVORY'S, Working Silver and Goldsmith, 47, Cornhill, London, (Seven doors from Gracechurch-street. ) N.B.—Second-hand Watches purchased in excharis D IE D . On the 9th inst., at Loughborough-road, Brixton , George, tlie eldest son of Mr. G. Schlotel, aged 10. t - On the 23d ult , in France, Elizabeth, infant daugh ter of Lieu t. th l Arthur nnedy. On e2d inst K .eat Peckham, Mrs. Hannah Ree ve, late of Den ver, Norfolk, aged 80. On the 4th inst Sophia, wife of Wm. Davies Esq. o f Cabal va. se. London : Printed and Published by 0 MURDO YO UNG. of 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 112. Strand , in the e. 1.7 of Middlesex.—Wednesday, March 14,1835. dram up beforo ,he a( Ab`c P a y.rief y lto y , Were su drike(ftti".,4so,,A It vt as °.,e'e of 'B 4 : - ..•Sebastit. Vyree, ti ant he fett him wa* the. 7p institeted tc THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 14, 1838