The Sun. — London, England, 1826-04-26 00:00:00

ibeCtogeh of which he was the trainee, should suffer no deterio . sati r on. On the whole, the conduct of the Bishop had been most intrionciliatory. 14r.i . S . icretary PEEL, regretted he was not in the House when as alluaion had been made to himself by the Hon. Member for Mon trose, accompanied by a reflection on a Reverend Prelate, which he must lay he still hoped would be withdrawn, as otherwise it would remain an instance of possible perversion of that freedom of speech which had been vanted to Hon. Members inside those walls for valuable purposes, to the injury and prejudice of the worth iest and best men in society. A Right Rev. Prelate, as distinguished by his eminent station as he was remarkable for his private virtues, had been assailed aufpranded with an opprobrious epithet—(Hear) which would not fail to reeoil on its utterer.---(hear.)—lndeed, had the situation of that Hon. Member been ,of sufficient eminence to have given such a calumny weight, he should not have con fined himself to speak of. it in a tone of so much moderation as he had done. Was it fair thus to brand the Bishop of London with so severe a stigma, so foul a reproach, because he attended to those interests which specially he was hound to protect or was it for him to compel the next incumbent to be content with 1,200/. a-year, when the present enjoyed, and it seemed was entitled, to 1,800/. a-year ?—(Hear.)—He had hardly any doubt but that the differences between the incumbent and his parishioners would be adjusted in time amicably, but he inti,t add that those who were most likely to defeat that hope, and do most injury to the cause they affected to serve, were persons who applied such highly re prehensible language to the conduct of venerable and much re spected indiViduals in their official and responsible capacity.— ( Loud cheers. ) Mr. HUME explained that he had been induced to say what he had said, in consequence of finding that when the parties them selves had settled their disputes, and the Rector agreed to take 14004 a veer, the Bishop had dissented from the arrangement, and he could not think that any person so situated, deserved any very qualified approbation. It made him; he confessed feel strongly on the subject when he found a Clergyman held up by his Bishop in demanding from his parishioners a sum nearly equal to the King'e Assessed Taxes on the parish. This was what had induced him to speak as he had, though he must say he should be sorry to throw out any personal observations or reflections which were unnierited4Vthi in the warmth of debate (Hear.) The petition Was read, and purported to that of the Churchwar dens and Inhabitant/of the parish of St. Olave, Hart-street, Lou don, imploring the' House to relieve . them from their present ex orbitant rate of aspessmeet , fortithe at the full rate of 2s. Ott. in the pound sterling, atOna l IY I Rue' petition was ordered to be printed. , en ":441 i .PROVISIONS. Mr. E. Wovitsioniz moved for returns of the contract price at which the -Royal 110'1)441s at Greenwich and Chelsea were provided with ,uteat, flour, bread, malt, hops, &c. for a given t i me. —Ordered. CATHOLIC PETITION. Sir F. BURDETT, in presenting the Petition of, the General Body of Catholics in Ireland, said, he should not feel justified in going at any length into the subject of the Catholic Petition, at the same time he should briefly say, that his feelings were not at all changed as to: his conviction of, the soundness, policy, and wis dom of attending to their claims. As it was not now intended to bring on a discussion of the question, it would not be fair to say more than to premise that the claims of the Catholics were founded in reason and justice, and were of such a nature, that they were never to be satisfied until they were totally conceded ; that they were the claims ,of six millions of his Majesty's subjects, whose character had been so highly spoken of in the other House by a Noble Lord at the ,head of his Majesty's Government as being at once is brave, honest, laborious, and worthy a people as ever existed under the sun. To men who had been thus characterised and clewilaelllllipt•Nopeinan it must be, indeed, grating to hear frtin.44,:yrry,iiirne: that they Were not fit to be admitted withipt,ther4o.4 thnAoooh C,onstitution.— He could have little doubt on his mind that ] the liotise,woukl be of opinion with him, that there was no doubt that !carton ? justi ce , and propriettpointed dut.that,' was, improper TP4lions, Of people should be Aliens in their native land. , -(Hear.)., these claims were settled 1611'0466W by acceding to them, they as a body never could be satisfied ; nor ought they to rest tver ,sitisfied until put on the same footing as other suhyots of the realm. • Mr. BR OUG HA 'Si rthße to Reg i{l the *Om TlieTetition being read bitlincre4:Ohlaslfouse at the table, which occupied twenty minutes, Sir F. BURDETT moved it should be printud and laid mote table. . . Mr. G. BANKER said, as the .Hon. :13aronet and the Se couder had both refrained from going into the general question, he should observe the same abstinence; but as the Hen. Baronet had *aid that his i Nings in favour Of, the removal of all political re strictions Were Unaltered, he would also state that his feelings, to , getlwr with those with whom he had, last year and before acted, continued also unchanged. They,ftwed this avowal to themselves and to their constituents, who, as there was a good deal of public feeling at eleftirs Would be better able to select front amongst taudidate9hov who would be most disposed to support the Con stitution. :'she Hon. Baronet bad Mentioned both justice And reason as 3 1i 1 4 is . side, but he could never s ee . th a t there cou ld b e either justice"dtt"ie.fiscid In placing the Protestant Church in the hands of men who contended that theirs was the only true and orthodox Church. As to the Church of Ireland, if delivered into such hands, he was decidedly of opinion it could not survive there two SessionallPa i liament. Indeed, the transactions of the two . last years, attitilte ittai Otthe Catholics themselves, had tended to confirm ta t P4sietitcrtained previously by his friends. 'The II: 311 i ATE PATHOLIC ASSOCIATION. .Mr. BROUGHAM. pret406404, a Petition fr om the same body, praying for the repeal of the Act of last Session fur putting down the Irisk c4tholic Associatiott..:4Ordered to be, printed. The Cotder'cit for taking into consideration the State of the Eo4s)p4Tliiiens h Ireland was postponed until Friday. _ _ _1 2 , 2111 '. 21 , 1 , 04,E PROPRIETOR S. Mr. iiititeiresented a Petition from Augustus H. Beau mont, 'Plantest,m, Amadeu, at prtsient residing in London, praying. sat ugnitable regard to the interests of ;the neuters in their Metes. ,- (rini; Ilarni , /Member deprecated a certain . tone which hod' been nosed in the :11011W and out of it. It was pecu- : liarly incombent upon thein f under present circumstanecte, to act with prielence'and caution. Much as he admired the caution and firtnuesS evitteed upon the subject, by the &mutiny for Foreign Affaira,. he could, tint entirely approve of his , state went, that the time rony'eeme when the Colonists should' . ay .; Isar contumacious, and if it did, the Parliament would not ap pear to want power. For his part, he would be sbrry that the /larliannett and the Colonies did not concur in the proposed measure looking at the whole of the queetion, it would, ha thought be too much to expect, that the evils of the, Trade - be ended, without the Co-operation of the proprietors of the' Bathe:ltaly - in which the proprietors state their determination not to admit certain propositions made by Ministers, until they are previously satisfied that th e y will not be attended with the ruin of their properties. He would ask there, that since the, had for so long a time supported the trade, which Was by considered a stein and blot upon the country, was it now too much to claim of their justice, and their humanity, to pay some attention to the interests of the Whites AO well as the Blaelts. No man was more desirous than be, that this Lint should be removed.---He was most anxious that the nation, as a nation, should effect 'the change, but he did not wish that the 113 00411te should be'tioinplited at the expence' of the unfortunate rumors of slave property. He wita Induced to present the pc. tition, not only from the genekil topics which it embraces, but at the urgent request of the individual, who conceived his property to be endangered. lie WOuld_ pow anove that - it be laid on the table. Mr. Secretary CANNING. had no wish to enter at present into the merits .of the Petition, still less wee► he disposed to answer the speech with , which the Hon. Member had thought proper to preface its introduction. He could not undertake to do this if he were not at the lame time prepared to touch upon all the points of the great question which the speech comprehended,. and which had so long agitated and divided the country. They would, at a future period, upon the introduction of the motion of which the Honourable/MEI Learned Member (Mr. Brotrghtun) had given notii..s, 111%4 the opportunity of discussing the subject, and with considerable advantage to the whole question. He would notitrouble the House with any further observation* at present, norehew an example of violating that rule which he himself had laid down. The Petition wee laid on the table, INSOLVENT LAW IN INDIA. Mr. HUMS Fremeriti:ll a Petition from H. Howel, a free mer chant of India, complaining of the tyranny of creditors to their deibions, and praying for the enactment of an Insolvent Law in After a few words from Mr. W. WYNN, the Petition was laid upon the table. WEST INDIA • JUDICATURE. Lord NIWENT %lied -the attention of the House to the lin proveithst4il ilidifikirdiiration of the laws in the Welt India Islands. After making a few observations, his Lordship con cluded by withdrawing his motion as Government promised to -Sake up the subject. Mr. W. HORTON said that it was the intention of hid Majesty's Government to carry into effect the recommendations for im provements. Motion by leave withdrawn. COUNSEL FOR FELONS. 5.)16 , . 0, LAMB rose to bring forward the motion of which he had already given notice. He had last year called the attention of - die House to it; and although upon that occasion he had not been sucoessful,- he did not despair to be yet able to obtain the sanction of the House to it. The opinions on which his motion had last year been founded, had not suffered any diminution or change since that time; on the contrary, they had rather been corroborated, and the propriety of the measure confirmed. The Attorney-General had on a former occasion argued strongly, on the injustice which the public suffered on this subject; it might therefore be expected that that Honourable and Learned Gen tleman would have brought in a Bill to remedy it. On bring-. ing this subject again for consideration before the House, be hoped for its indulgence; it was a dry subject for - discussion, and the House would, be knew, require patience to attend to the equally dry protemium of quotations from old legal authorities. The Magna Chaita, among its other excellent provisions, de clared, that no man was found guilty unless " per jutlicium pa tium aut per legem term." He had reason to suppose that that passage referred to felons, for at that period he believed the Crown had not assumed the privilege of being the public prosecutor. He was therefore prepared to contend that the practice of the old laws of England had been to allow Counsel to felons ; but the practice of that law had been variously changed. . The authority of Blackstone and of Whitelocke was also favour able to his view of the question. Even Justice Jefferies, when required to justify the refusal of a copy of an indictment to a pri soner, had given an opinion admitting almost the propriety of al lowing Counsel in those cases. Justice Hale, and Sir R. Atkins, when expressing their opinion in the case of Lord Russell, 'bad grounded their reasoning upon similar principles. Sir Bartholo mew Shower, on writing a pamphlet, justificatory of the 'proceed ings adopted in the case of Lord Russell, had in a great measure advocated those principles. Sir M. Foster, in his Crown Law, had stated similar sentiments: .11 " At Common Law, no Counsel is allowed upon, the issue of guilty or not guilty in any capital case whatsoever, except upon questions of law; and then only in doubtful, not in plain; 'eases. ' I em far from disputing the propriety of this rule while it is con- tined to :elony, and the lower class of treasons concerning the coin and the seals. I know many things have been thrown out upon this subject, and inconveniences, some real, some imagi nary, have been suggested by popular writers, who seem to have attended,eingly to those on one side of the question ; but it is im possible, in a state of imperfection, to keep clear of all inconve niences, though wisdom will always direct us to the course which is subject to the fewest and the least; and this is the utmost human wisdom can do." He was particular in queting from that Learned Judge, princi pally because his authority hail. been' adduced by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman against Mtn.' Whenever there was occasion to quote the opinion of a Judge upon the Bench, it ought to be re membered that it was the duty of Judges to administer the laws as they were, and not as they ought to be. In the quotations made by the opponents of the measure from Judge Foster, this observation bad nut been strictly attended to. But if the autho rity of those Learned Judges had been opposed to allowing coun sel to felons, he could not see bow far that authority was to have weight in prohibiting all improvements. This was an age of im provements ; the hacknied phrase, "the wisdom of our ancestors" was no longer a cabalistic word of prohibition ; for improvements were daily introduced as well into the law as into the administra tion of it. Opposition might he made to his motion, in the same manner as last year, its being an innovation, hut he could shield himself within thi shade of a Right Honourable Secretary, whose Bill fur the improvement of the criminal law was now on the table. If the criminal law could be improved in its enactments and speiiifications, could it not also be improved in Its administra tion ? If no improveMent could be affected in thesidrojeisteetieu of the law, was it not strange to find that the property 4 thf Fab ject was to be protected by kis Counsel, in civil caees e tvtilelai? life was to be left unprotected in criminal ones? He could therefore, but regard time Bill of the Right Hon.' Secretary 411 forming a strong precedent for his measure. But it ;was. said, 44 Where is the utility of your improvement? Is netAhse,lttim, Counsel for the prisoner?" His answer to those two questions was easy and satisfactory. " The Judge •icnet Counsel for the prisoner, but for public justice • it is. the :levy the r ludge to see that all proceedings are fairly condUcted on be% Stiles." This Nil- Mon was founded upon conviction..it*as strungthaned . , by : ape. donee, and it was warranted by the highest authorities. lie had received communications on this subject , from various parts of the ' country : among them was one from Biker, tract from the charge of Sir W. GarroW to the Grand Jay , or Devonshire, in August 1824, in which the sentiments 'tif•thiit Learned Judge were explained, as condemning the practice of refusing the benefit of an advocate to' felons. If counserwas lowed to speak against them, why was, not. counsel ,ttlietved to speak for them ? It was said, " If counsel will" be allowed to plead for them,- the Judge will.have to reply against them ?" But was not the same question to Ise neked.thus, 4 . 4 if counsel has to plead against them, is the Judge bound to speak against them ?" He begged the House to refer to the practice as it had been car ried on prior andsubsequent to the passing of. the !Treason Bills. Were.the Judges prevented from administering justice effectually in those cases now ? If Counsel was useful in the latter cases, why not in the former 2 • .lt ,, was admitted that the allowing of ,Counsel in treasonable care* was lint injurious, yet why could it 4>e in cases of felony'? If, under the present system of practice, the prisoner was a man of talent, could the Judges not prevent his speaking in whatever manner lie thought proper? Witness the ease of Cooper, whom the Judge had caused to observe silence.— He had seen a case in the newspapers, but which, as lie bad not authenticated, lie would put hypothetically : six men had been ac cused of burglary ; one of them asked a witness if he knew whether it was dark or light at the time stated ? This question elicited from the Judge a remark that such knowledge of the nature of the crime was indicative of very dangerous dispositions. But what compelled the prisoners to seek that information? The system of law, which precluded hopes of having the advantage of au experienced advocate. Thus the prisoner was placed in the di lemma, that if he did not know the nature of his crime, he was incapable of defence ; if lie knew the nature of the accusation and of the crime, he was marked down as an atrocious criminal. This practice could be equalled only by the reply of the eccen tric legislator, Jack Cade, who said to his prisoner, " hang him, if 'tie only fur pleading.so well for his life."—(Laughter.)— If it, was possible to see a Judge on the Bench lose his temper, on heuring.thellefence of a prisoner, by what means was the lat ter to expect justice? Again, the utility of allowing Counsel to plead for felons, was evident from the protection which it would afford to the interests of third persons. In the case of Bellingham, fur instance, that criminal, in his defence, had uttered a tissue of calumnies and' slanders against third individuals which no ad vocate could venture to state, and which the Court was neverthe less obliged to hear. Would not, therefore the pleading of Coun sel in his behalf have produced a better effect, at least one more consonant with the administration of justice in a civilized country ? One good he was sure would flow from the adoption of this Bill. It would tend to diminish tier number of perjured alibis: The evils of the present system would, he was convinced, have been much more loudly complained of, hail the final abjudication of a cause rested with the verdict of the Jury. Had there been no final tribunal to resort to, petitiOns would lotig since have poured in, calling for an alteration of the present law. But when it was known that every case of conviction met with the patient and impartial investigation of the,, Right Honourable Secretary for the Home Department, *lose public cha racter and great talents afforded every evidence'', thet , no case, upon which the shadow of a doubt rested, *tnildpaeit without the most scrupulous revision, the public mind was eoMparatively easy upon the subject.—(Hear, hear I)—Notwitlistlicriditig this check to improper convictions, however, it could not be denied that, occasionally, deplorable instances of the defective state of the law upon this subject were found to occur. There had been instances in which, through the praiseworthy - exertions of the Right Honourable Gentlemen, innocent persona had been re prieved at the very foot of the gallows.—(Hear, hear !)—But there had been instances still more deplorable, in which the bene volent labours of that' Right Honourable Gentleman had been frustrated in consequence of the grossest perjury, which was in capable of detection after conviction. This was a painful sub ject, and one to which lie was unwilling to allude. lie might, however, mention a recent instance—that of a female, named Catherine Ferris, who, after conviction, lied been proved to tally innocent, the grossest perjury having been used against her, end who hatl,• in consequence, received the King's par '&9•• It Wit', difficult to collect the opinion of the Bench upon this subject. 1 le befieved, however, that he was correct in stating, that they were :generally favourable to his measure.— How must any - hinaaue;',Jtidge, for example, have felt, while sitting upon the judgment seat', ,to be obliged to say to a poor prisoner, who, after his case led been gone through, good wishfully looking at litS i eirimed; in the hope that lie would offer.sornething in his h"---lilX—"P r i eoner , y o ur Counsel can say nothing for yOu--gaoler, take him; away." Although no Judge had expresely expressed their approbation of the specific measure which he (Mr. Lamb) proposed, thei4 had been Judges in former times who adopted its principle, by recommending, that es the Counsel for the defendant h a d no t the liberty of reply, the Coun sel for the prosecution should not be allowed to make an opening speech. This might !te'adrisable in some cases ; but, as a gene ralnde, he thoughtlhe fairest way would be, that whenever the Counsel for, the prosecution made an opening speech, the Counsel for the defence ought 'to be at liberty to reply. In cases of mis cemeanor, Counsel were allowed to address the Jury for the de fendant : and not only were they 'allowed to do so, but they were afterwards allowed to put in affidavits in mitigation of punish ment, and, if necessary to move for a new trial. He saw no reason why a person who was placed in a much more precarious situation, whose very life was in jeopardy, should not be allowed the same latitude of defence as a person to whom the consequences of conviction, were much more trivial. Too much stress had, perhaps, when the question was last discussed, been laid upon the situation of persons tried for high treason. In cases of Peers tried for felony, however, if any additional evidence was adduced, the Counsel for the prosecution was allowed the liberty of reply. This was the Luse in the trials of Lord Ferrets, Lord Byron, and the Duchess of Kingston. In the latter ease particularly, the Solicitor-General, Mr. Wedderburn, claimed the right of reply. The Hon. and Learned Member, after alluding to the abolition of trial by battle, and the other improvements which had taken place in the administration of criminal law, concluded, by expressing his conviction that the effect of his Bill would be, like that of the Right Hon. - Secretary's (Mr. Peel), not to multiply convictions, but ,to make conviction depend upon the facts of the rstse, and moved, that leave be given to bring in a Bill to allow persons tried for felony to make their defence, by Counsel. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL , said, that after the fullest con sideration he had been enabled to bestow upon the subject, and an anxious reference to all the authorities within his reach, he was persuaded that the change proposed would in its effects be adverse to the calm, fair, dispassionate, and candid administration of cri minal justice. The opinion of the Bar upon the question was, he believed, divided; of the opinions of the Bench he was not able particularly to speak, but he had reason to think that it was un favourable to the proposed alteration. his Hon. and Learned Friend had said, that if he opposed the permission for Counsel to defend prisoners accused of felony, lie ought in consistency to be adverse to the employment of, Couneel in cases of misdemeanour, as the same arguments ,weul4 equaIIYAIIIPTY to both. He admit ted that they did ; but what he said was, that if the measure was a..douhtful one, it ought to he adopted with extreme caution; as. if it were once.allowed,that persons accused of felony should lteileferultsl by Counsel, it would be impossible for them ever to f i e tM e ',:it le i r es e p s ,,,,,When, therefore, he was taunted with the duty hie ii would impose upon him, to attempt to withdraw the privilege now.enOyssiAty persons , accused of misdemeanour, it was a sufficient enottyerto say, that it was in the nature of the privelege that whei, pop allowed it could never -- bikiibiilished. It was true that aii addi4ss was permitted by Connie! thr the pro secution, but if they overstep the line of duty they are always cor rected by the Judge. He' did not mean to say that in no instance whatever had this practice been abused by;the introduction of matter not strictly explanatory of the evidentie which was to fol low. But it was an abuse which the proper feelings of the Bar, and the vigilance of the Bench, rendered extremely rare. After that address came the evidence for the prosecution, which was heard calmly, deliberately, and cautiously. Then followed the case for the prisoner, conducted by his Counsel, and lastly the Judge summed up the whole, not, us had sometimes been said, in the character of Counsel for the prisoner, not as Counsel for either party, but ei Counsel for both, so far as to see that the facts have been ,properly sifted, and that the law applies to the facts. He thus submits to the Jury a calm, temperate, and dispassionate view of the whole case. What subs stitute then was offered in lieu of this? They. are to excite a conflict, in which the zeal and emulation of Counsel, intent only on carrying their respective points, are to be brought into play, in place of the calm and solemn proceedings which now take place. In those criminal cases which carne before the Court of King's Welch he saw the effect of this daily. Counsel employed in a case ..of perjury or conspirtick displayed the same zeal, the same ea ge r ness, the same desire to withdraw whatever might initigate'isguinst the interest of their client, as in any civil action. The question then for the House to decide_ was, whether any ad vantage was to be expected from this change ; or rather, whether these advantages were, so great as to induce them to hazard the ,excellent system now in existence for the sake of the experiment. optie put the question practically. Let them'not depend upon the. inion of Sir Michael Foster or Mr. Justice Blackstone, - but let -them form a judgment for themselves upon a full consideration of the subject. He lied uo personal feelings oh' one side of the question or the other ; let him he convinced by argument that the alteration wenKlier i beneficiul,snd h e would be quite ready to give it his support. If Coiiiisel were to be heard on behalf of the prisoner, it would be aitlifininaly unless the cabs split, limitations, and conditions were 'proscribed as in - the superiteenurti, in Which, , when evidence ileas.called for the defence, the-1,444es counsel .Itad,e right of ritply. ,ilt was the most anxious question the Counsel for a de fendant h' d to consider whether, by calling witnesses, he should ;give to t e plainti ff' s Costlier, he having already produced the first imp 'on, the.advantage of Troducing also upon the minds "61 i il4Iuiy the last impression. He had often heard the - Hon. Member for Peterborough complain that the defendant, in action id Iftiv, had decidedly: a• wortir ,chsttFte . than the plaintiff. By ithtptiriA the proposition of his Hon. and Learned Friend, they Would inflict upon the person accused - of felony all the disadvan tages now auffered by , the defendant , in an action at law. The Counsel for the prosecutir- ,would then, by trick andirrange ment, force the urisenei,s counsel to call evidence, and after wards in reply availkikeiellof any little inconsisteucy to create an impression unfavourable, to , the prisoner. It . was infinitely better for the investigatien of truth that the evidence should be heard fairly; fully, - and iniptirtially on both sides, and after wards calmly summed up by the Judge. One other observation was essential upon this subject. Ile had stated that the Judge was not to be considered as an advocate for the prisoner, but it was of the utmost importance that the Judge should not appear ad verse to the prisoner. Now suppose the counsel for the prisoner, as would frequentlyoccur, should determine to sacrifice the advan tage of calling witnesses in Order to secure what he might deem the greater advantage of making a speech not to be replied to. The Judge would, in this case, be obliged to correct the fallacies of the Counsel for the prisoner, and as Judges were but men, it was as difficult for them as for other men, when embarked upon a cur rent of argument, to stop at the precise line, and thus an impres sion would he frequently created that the judge would have pressed hardly upon the prisoner, and that the unfavourable verdict was owing to him. He would then go back to the original question— ' is the present administration of justice defective ? His Honourable and Learned Friend said that persons were sometimes convicted ' when they ought to be acquitted.. This was certainly true ; but the argument was entitled to little weight or consideration, unless it could be sho an that this Would be more effectually prevented under his system. The evil he thought would be of more frequent occurrence under that system. This was his short view of the case. 110 would not say that the administration of the law was pt 'feet, bet he would say that it was excellent, and he was not de sirous of` liazarding a change, and particularly a change which its advocates' intended must be productive Qf the :most important effects. He called upon the House not to hazard, a step which it would be impossible for them to retrieve. He htuLthus early stated his ob jections to the measure. , lie had stated them in all candour. His objection, went to the whole principle of the proposed ch ange , an d it was therefore as well tb eUte them now as on any subsequent 'stage of the proceeding.--4 Hear.) Mr. JOHN WILLIAMS contended that, although the pre sent administration of tie, law was excellent, it might be ren dered more excellent. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman oppo site had admitted it to be, imperfect ; the object of the present motion was to render it perfect. He hail argued it like a lawyer; but the essential question was, whether the present administration of the criminal law was satisfactory to the people. He thought the withholding the assistance of Counsel from the prisoner cal culated to produce an impression of unfairnetii. The arguirient that they would not retrace their steps . if they ventured upon this experiment, was altogetheffutile. If disadvantages were found to result from the new, there would be no difficulty in returning to the old system. - . , • Mr. Secretary PEEL, said, that a former discussion upon the same question in that House had been conducted so ably, had been conducted in a manner so 'creditable to the Horse, that his judg ment had vacillated as he listened to successive epeakers, and as the •question remained doubtful, he had at last determined to give the benefit of that doubt ,to the existing system. He might elite say that his situation was calculated to render hiin rather favourable to the change proposed, as it would in a great degree relieve him, from that most painful duty of revising the verdict of Juries previous to execution. In respect to authorities, they could not have much weight, for the authorities were equipredominant.— Neither did it weigh much with him that the proposed change would lead to more frequent convictions. If the convictions were just he should not consider them a disadvantage. He had oftener than once' hid it represented to him that an tuts fortunate question -put by the counsel for a prisoner bad led to the conviction. _ . Rut of this the. prisoner must of course - take the chino* . The consideration of expence, although not to be loud eight of, was not to be put in competition with the !objects of substantial justice,' but if the proposed alteration was carried, important regulations would be necessary as to the - time allowed for aasizes, and for the administration of criminal justice in Middlesex. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman who hid spoken last, had addressed himself to the important part of !the question ; if he could prove that the present sys tem of administering justice did not give satisfaction to the minds of the people, his opposition to the motion would be at an end. He lied ample opportunities of judging, but of all the petitions brougbk before him in behalf of convicts, he recol lected no instate in which the conviction had been ascribed to the want of t assistance of Counsel. He then came to the consideration which weighed principally with him. That was that the proposed system would materially alter the situation of Judges of Assize. If Counsel abused the privilege which this law would afford, then a very painful and invidious duty would devolve upon the Judge. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said that where a Thurtell or a Bellingham defended their own cause, the Judge refrained from interrupting them, from feelings arising out of the situation in which they were placed, but he mentioned a case in which the Judge had said to a prisoner, " Come, let us have none of your flourishes." This case, how ever, it ought to be recollected, was one in which the prisoner was an attorney, so that the Judge probably said to him, or at least he might have said, " Come, lawyer, let us have none of your flourishes." The necessity of unanimity on the part of the jury was also an immense advantage which the prisoner possessed exclusively in this country. They were told that in Scotland the prisoner was allowed to be defended by Scotland in cases of felony. But in Scotland a majority of eight to seven, the Juries being composed of fifteen, -was sufficient to convict the prisoner. It appeared to him that Counsel might be allowed in such a case as that ; and yet not be necessary where the unanimous verdict of twelve men was indispensable to conviction. He denied that .there was a partial or unfair administration of justice under the present system, and he was unwilling to risk changes from which the same advantages might not be derived. Upon these grounds, admitting the subject to be one upon which he had en tertained much doubt—yet upon the whole, believing the change prejudicial to the interests of justice, he should reluctantly vote against the present motion. Mr. H. TWISS differed from those who said that the present system worked well, and deserved general admiration. As the law now stood, if a prisoner meant to appeal to the jury upon the facts of his case, he must do it from his own lips. Now, if a prisoner were prevented from doing this by any physical defect, such as blindness, deafness, or any other infirmity, would it be said that the law ought not to be relaxed ? He contended that a general ground for such a relaxation existed in the situation of a prisoner being such as to divest him of the common resources of the human mind andstrength. There was an expulsion so com mon in its use that it had grown into a proverb, which said, that the man who was his own advocate had a fool for his client. He apprehended that the converse would hold equally true, and that a man who was his own client had a fool for his advocate. In cases of treason—the highest offence known to the law—and in cases of misdemeanour—the lowest, the prisoner was allowed Counsel to speak in his defence. But in felony alone arose the difficulty and dan ger which his Hon. and Learned Friend had described. Now it was well known that there were cases too numerous to mention, where the nicest discrimination of the most practised advocate was required to decide whether they should be prosecuted as trea son, felony, or misdemeanour. Taking the case of Lord George Gordon : that case might have been prosecuted as a levying war against the King, and it would have been treason ; if as sedition, ft would have been a misdemeanour ; but if the prisoner were charged with remaining an hour after the reading of the Riot Act, it would be a felony; and, by that one ingenious stroke, he would be tried for his life without the aid of Counsel, who, if the charge had been for treason, might perhaps have saved it. Mr. MARTIN supported the motion. Mr. TINDALL opposed the motion. Lord ALTHORPE spoke briefly in support of the motion. Mr. SCARLETT said, that upon mature consideration of the subject, in all its bearings, he was ready to admit that he had changed his opinion. On the whole view of the question he sup ported the proposition for bringing in the Bill. The SOLICITOR GENERAL was only desirous of saying that the proposed novelty would tend to injure rather than improve the proceedings in criminal justice. Mr. BROUGHAM had formed a clear opinion in favour of the motion. He thought the adoption of the proposal would remove from criminal justice a great ignominy. The Right Hon. Secretary of - State said he had never known a claim to mercy preferred on the ground of improper proceedings at the trial. It might be ; but no man who saw the fearful odds against a prisoner who had Coun sel against him, and none for him, could avoid saying that juctice required something more. The moat material question was— ought the country to be satisfied with this part of the criminal law"? Was it intended to be said, that calmness and dignity were observed in all criminal proceedings? Points of law were often raised by Counsel, with a knowledge that the Judge must decide against them. _ _ Mr. Secretary CANNING maid, if he had any impression of the necessity of a change he should be as ready to admit a change in this case as any other, but until the balance preponderated in favour of a change, he thought it safer not to change. It was not a question whether the change would produce most acquittals or convictions, but how far the change would increase the confidence and celerity of proceedings in the Courts of Jus tice. The argument which weighed most ujmn his mind, was that in which the Honourable and Learned Gentle- . man said, the change would introduce contention, trials, and alter the administration of criminal justice. On that ground alone he should prefer leaving things as they are. That, how ever, would not weigh with him, if any injustice was done by the present practice. With no indisposition to hear it discussed again, he should on the present occasion oppose the motion. Mr. DENAIAN approved of the Bill, because it equalised the condition of the prisoner and the prosecutor ; and any person who might be innocent and at the same time accused of a crime, stood no chance, on account of his being refused that assistance which his accuser had. He should give his most cordial assent to the Bill. Mr. GEORGE LAMB replied. The Iltiuse then divided, when there appeared—. For the Motion Against it - - - Si; - - - - 1l)5 Majority - - _69 The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, cud the House adjourned at Two o'CLoetc. • EA ST INDIES. ( From the Calcutta Government Gazette Extraordinary.) POLITICAL DEPARTMENT, Dec. SO, 1825. The following copies of dispatches received from Major-General Sir Archibald Campbell, K. C. 8., and K. C. T. S. are herewith published for general information : TO GEORGIC SWINTON, ESQ., SECRETARY TO GOVERNMENT, SE CRET AND POLITICAL DEPARTMENT, &C., FORT WILLIAM. Sir—The enemy, in closing in upon our front, has been unre mitting in his endeavours to intercept our communication with Rangoon. Large bodies of troops for this service have lately passed our flanks on both sides of the Irrawaddy, and the state of that river, covered, as it has lately been, with large and valuable convoys of stores and treasure, has necessarily caused me much anxiety, and retarded my moving forward. Shudoun-Mew, and the Sarrauddy districts have been over-rqn by these itenerant bands, and I have been under the necessity of detaching Lieutenant-Colonel Godwin, with a strong detaeh ment, for the purpose of driving the enemy from Shudoun, and if possible, of surprising any parties he might have in that neigh bourhood. On the night of the 24th, the Lieutenant-Colonel marched to Shudoun, but the enemy receiving intelligence of his approach, fled to the interior, and the detachment returned to quarters, after clearing the left bank of the river for fifteen miles below Prome. On the western bank I deemed it of importance to retain pos session of Patioua-Mew, and for that purpose stationed 100 men of his Majesty's Royal Regiment, and 100 of the 26th Madras Native Infantry, at that place, under the command of Capt. Dean, of the Royals, and supported on the river by a division of the flo tilla, under the command of Lieut. Kellett of the Navy. This party was repeatedly attacked by the enemy in great force, and the meritorious conduct of both officers and men, as detailed in the inclosed copies of letters from Captain Deane, will, I am cer tain, obtain for them the approbation of the Right Hon. the Go vernor-General in Council. _ _ The first division of his Majesty's 87th Regiment, in coming up the river, was fired at from the bank by a party of the enemy, and two men were unfortunately killed, with one officer wounded. The soldiers immediately landed, and drove the enemy from his post with some loss. The particulars are detailed in a report marching out from the commanding officer, Major , Gully, of which a copy is herewith enclosed. Two divisions of His Majesty's 87th Regiment, with the t to reas atta ur c e i bm the t4 ;net ve y to-nomworarrorwiv,edtleancdonaleqPuurenTeof which will, I trust, be felt by all the dependent corps which have b 0 long an noyed us.—l have, &c. (Signed) ARCHIBALD CAMPBELL, Major-General. Head-quarters, Prom, November 30, 1825. Pudoon, November 20, 1825. TO THE ADJUTANT-GENERA", Or TUE FORCES SERVING IN AVA. Sir,—l have the honour to report, for the information of the Commander of the Forces, a brush which took place between the p a rty under my command, and the enemy, this morning. In the early part of the morning, the fog was so thick as to preclude our seeing any thing in our front, 'and on its Clea wit up, I discovered, by means of a reconnoitring party, that the enemy were in considerable force on the edge of the jungle in' front of my left, and shortly after I discovered them march ing in three columns across my front; for the attack of my right, left, and centre, their main object being evidently to gain the right of the village. I consequently detached a party to turn their left, and had, in a few minutes, the satisfaction to observe that column retiring in confusion and with considerable loss. I then moved forward, with the remainder of my party, to attack their centre, which also retired in confusion after a very few rounds; during this time, their right was engaged with a strong picquet which I had placed to dispute the passage of a bridge on the left of the village; this they effectually did. In both the defence of my centre and left, I was much indebted for the prompt assist ance afforded me by Lieut. Kellett, It. N. The enemy's force consisted of two gilt chattahs and about 800 men, armed with muskets and spears, with two or three jinjals; their loss I conceive to have been about 25 or 30 men killed. We had not, lam happy to say, a single man wound ed. The enemy, however, from the great extend of the village, succeeded in setting it on fire at both ende, but very little damage was done, as we extinguished it almost immediately. The Ra jah and all his attendants deserted the place the moment the firing commenced ; he has, however, just returned, and appears much more composed, and highly delighted with the result.-- I have, &c. (Signed) C. DEANE, Captain Corn. Detach, ( py True Co.) (Signed) F. S. TIDY, Lieut.-Col. D.A.G. Puddown, Nov. 25, 1625. TO THE ADJUTANT-GENERAL OF THE FORCES. Sir—l have the honour to report, for the information of the commander of the forces, another affair which we have had with the Burmese this morning. A little before day-break we had embarked 20 men of the Royals and 30 Sepoys of the 26th Madras Native Infantry' in the light row-boats, intended to co-operate with Lieutenant-Colonel Godwin's on the opposite side of the river. They were just in the act of shoving off from the shore, when the enemy, to the amount of 5,000 or 6,000, made a rush at our works, howling most horribly, and at the same time setting fire to the village, which they had entered at all points We hail fortunately got an 18-pounder into the battery late yesterday evening, which, added to two twelves which we had before, did great execution. Lieutenant Kellett, R. N., was at the moment shoving off with the row-boats, but instantly returned to our assistance with all his men, and kindly undertook the superintendence of the guns, the well directed fire of which SO mhinly contributed to our succeae• The enemy, after nearly two hotirs - sharp firing, retired in admir able order, carrying off great numbers of dead and wounded, so much so, that we have not been able to find more than 10 or 18' dead bodies. lam happy to add, with the exception of one man slightly grazed in the elbow by a musket shot, we have not a man either killed or wounded. The Rajah's house was very early in flames, and is burnt to the ground; indeed, I may almost say, the village is completely destroyed. The gnus in the boats were also of the greatest assistance in scouring the village with their grape. We got possession of one jinjal and three muskets. The enemy appeared to have several mounted men, but I cannot say what they were. I duly received the Deputy Quartermaster-General's instruc tions to place myself under the orders of Lieutenant-Colonel God win, but I have as yet heard nothing of him, except being in formed by a Serjeaut's party of his Majesty's 41st Regiment, who came down in the boats (and arrived during this affair, in which they took part) that he was on his way down. I thought it most prudept to report direct, not knowing how long it might be before he arrived.-1 have, &c. (Signed) C. DEANE, Captain Corn. Detach. (True copy.) (Signed) F. S. TIDY, Lieut.-Col. D.A.G. Puddown, Nov. 30, 1825. TO TM ADJUTANT-GENERAL OF Ti!)' FORCKS. Sir,—l have the honour to report, for the information of the Commander of the forces, that the enemy appeared in great fords this morning at day-break all along our front, and had a good deal 'of skirmishing with the picquets, but we could not succeed ill drawing them within musket-shot of our works. They are all armed with muskets, and have a great many jinjals, and two or more guns, with which they annoyed us very considerably , havinlf taken up a position in the woody part of the village, fron t whe t * they opened a musket-fire on the boats. From this I determine d to ilislodge thrill, and sent out a strong party for that ,purpose : et these came cloietipon them, a nd dr ove them out, w ith, I have every reason tnlialffegar e, eonsideethi e l os e;- Th e y aterhow eve r, by no mean s discomfited, snl round us, and mike regular approa ches,as their orders are perenqry to carry the place. In confirmation o f this, number of their intrenching , tools were left behind by the killed an d !",,i Our only casualty this morning, lam happy to say , on- -a6". I understand,determined to iiitrench themselves car severely, but not dangerously, wounded . The shot first grazed the jaw bone, entered the shoulders, and came out under the arm-pit. From one of the prisoners taken this moruingi. whom I have by this opportunity forwarded to M ajor tack s on, I learn there are absolutely 5,500 men near here, and t a fur ther force is hourly expected down from Putto-down, where he says - the Setahwoon now is.—l have, &c. (Signed) C. DEA:NM, Captain Cum. Detacht. (True copy.) (Signed) F. S. TIDY, Lieut.-Col. D. A. G. On the river near Prome, Nov. 26, 1825. TO LIZUT.—COIL.. TIDY C. B. DEPT. AIDJUTANT..GILIc. Sir,—l have the honour to state, for the information of Major General Sir Archibald Campbell, commanding the force, that on the morning of the 25th instant, while in progress to this station with three companies of His Majesty's 87th Regiment under my command, I was suddenly attacked from a steep bank covered with jungle, by the Burmese, near the village of Theacombinev when, after a smart skirmish, they retreated in great confusion their loss I could not ;ascertain, as they carried off their killed and wounded. I have every reason to be satisfied with the conduct of both officers and men, particularly with that of Captain Bowes, Who commanded a small party in advance, and sustained, with g r. coolness, the first and heaviest part of the enemy's fire, aft er having been wounded by almost the first shot. I beg leave to bring to the notice of Sir Archibald Campb ell, the good conduct of Mr. Volunteer Hutchins on this occuleol4 and, in fact, ever since he has been with the regiment- 1 113 ''' &c. (Signed) W. S. GULLY, Major Commanding. (True copy) (Signed) F. S. TIDY, Lieut.-Colonel, D.A.G• Return of Killed, Wounded, and Ttlissing under the command of :Major Gully, Regiment, in action with the enemy near Thcacon.bol e, ` 1 " the 25th of November, 1825: d Ole: His Majesty's 87th Itegiment.—Killed-2 rank an Wounded-1 captain. ow e& Name of the Officer Wounded—Captain James n 0 , slightly. (Signed) F. S. TIDY, Lieut.-Col. D. A' of Hie n 8)701 TO 080IIOR SWiIITOW, ESQ., SECRETARY TO GOVILRNMSN T, 115. CRET AND POLITICAL DEPARTMENT, IL C ., FORT-WILLIAM. • Sir—My last letters would apprise the Eight Hon. the Goya' nor-General in Council, that the main Birrmese Army, a m " ° ,;, fr , lug to between 50,000 and 60,000 'men , h a d t a k e n post l a - 0 0 immediate vicinity of Prome, and I h ave b een for the last 10(11, anxiously awaitin g an att ac k u p on th e strong p o sition We bad w f h e l ' much labour cleared and pr e p a r e d f o r giving full effect- to vfi movement and operations of our columns, and every possible' c,.. yf g. ' couragement has been held nut to induce the enemy tct A t e e '"i 1' once on open ground. Fi n di ng h o wever, much tA0.t 1 7..,',1T.-•• to be drawn from his strongholds in the jungle, and suiler,..."( much annoyance and inconvenience from his marauding Pa rt "'"' and want of f orage , I, on th e SOth ult., took measures fortoza}r ing a general a tt ac k u p on eve ry accessible part of his line, " 4 A ' ing on the eas t b an k o f th e Irrawaddy, from a commanding of hills upon the river, to the village of Shnbike and Seow",. t upon the left, distant from Prome 11 miles, in a no rth-east rection. The enemy's army was divided into three corps. 1:11,de left corps, com ma nded by Maba Nemiow, an old and experi°c" :ij. General, who had been sent down from Ava to introduce a new tern of conducting the war, was stockaded in the jungles a t bike and Hyalay, upon the Nawine river ; and this corp s so r',7-00 ed to 15,000 men, Burmese, Shaun, and Cassayera, of wb ig ".. t he were cavalry. The centre, under the immediate orders 0 ; Kee-Woonghee, was strongly intrenchod upon the hil ls of INeo3p 8 0 ,.. dee, inaccesisable, except on one side by a narrow path-u'' ltie the manded by seven pieces of. artillery, and on the river. ana , ;. navigation was commanded by s e veral batteries of heavy oruneo The corps consist e d o f 30 , 000 men, and the space beta' , 0 ,, left and centre corps, a thick and extensive forest,- was toer t o Y r j e rs "Pied by a line of pasts. The enesny'As right, under the ”,„„ i r of Suddoow oon , occu pi e d the west bank of the Irrawaddy , a" - ly stockaded and defended by a rtillery.. °I. Leaving four regiments of Native Infantry in the wq r t he Prome, on the morning of the I st instant I marched 0r,3.31411a Simbike, with the rest of the force; to dislodge the collo pre- Nemlow from its position on the .Nawine river; viously concerted, his Excellency Commodore Sir , Jai`rj n try, bane, with the flotilla, and the 26th Madras Native 4PIP- ,