The Sun. — London, England, 1836-03-08 00:00:00

i C itholic ho should so exercise s franchise.—(Hear, heir.) extract Tell'e Right Hon. Gentleman here read the following You say that Lord Kenmare, in the first instance, was inclined to . be neutral, ' and to take no part in the elec tion en e „ s, said so." " And that the denunciations of ""ir• Connell in the ccunty caused him to change his mind, Aand by hi s agent, or otherwise, to inform the freeholders it was 2: 1 : 4 . 11 they should support t h e K n i g h t of Kerry ?" " I w , te 7,l . E „ ln Lord K enmare ' s own handwriting that that was his „ es " You saw it in some document of Lord Kenmare's ?" addressed to the agent, Mr. Gallwey." " llave you any copy of that l etter ?" " I have. " " Will you produce it ?" "This is the letter :" DEAR Ms. GALLWEY—You are aware, as the public must be, that it was my determination to take no part in the approaching election for the county. We are 110 8 V arrived at a point beyond which forbearance is no longer possible; it is not now a matter of politics—the question at l _ ss ,tm is, wheth er we are to b ow our heads to a system of in solent dictati on an d i nt i m id at i on : whether those freeholders t who will not submit to be used as mere puppets by Mr. O'Coa tell are to be pointed at with impunity as objects of insult and assassination, for what other meaning can be attached to the denunciation, that a death's head and cross bones are to be affixed to the doors of those independent individuals who will no t obey his mandates ! 11 w h en t h e mo b i n T ra l ee i s to ld t h at t hose who will not vote as he dictates are to be dragged from th e.hustings an d tramp l e d un d er f oot. U n d er t h ese c i rcum . tances I am driven to abandon my original intentions, and have t o request that you will co nvey to my friends and tenantry Thy desire and most earnest intreaty that they will vote for the Knight of Kerry. I certainly do not think that I require too Much from them when I ask for one vote from each. N (Signed) KENMARE.' " K enmare's, put it to th e House to say whether this letter of Lord unlare's, a nobleman not of his way of thinking—a Whig ` n Principles —the constant advocate of liberal institutions, who W a s appointed by Earl Grey's Government to the Lord Lieu- Leaney of the county of Kerry—a man irreproachable elm 'ler, and one of the best landlords of Ireland, did not fully be at out his position, that in the mind of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman sectarian feelings were mixed up with political considerations.—( Hear.) He considered, then, that taking into consideration the circumstances in which Ireland Was placed, it was impossible with safety to grant the proposed alsisure of reform. Was the House aware of the scenes that w it occurred at f a irs in Ireland ? Such, he hesitated not w .° say, with all th e i r brutal and disgusting accompaniments, with all their appalling and revolting tragedies, would be the cora:taut scenes at municipal elections held under the Bill as it 1 143 ‘v stood. Th e H on . an d Learned Men.ber for Tipperary lad lately accused him, and the party with whom he acted, of a d isposition to raise a " No Popery" cry.—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He denied it.—(Hear.) Ile Maintained, on the contrary, that the" Popery" cry had been r aised by the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin and hi s party.—( Hear, hear.) Ile had only to refer to the vol time of evidence before him to prove that in hundreds of instances the Popery cry had been raised for political o bjects.—( H ear. ) Could they . have better proof of the fact th an an was t o b e f ou nd in the circumstance of the Hon. and d arned Member for Tipperary writing to a Protestant clergy lateen, to whom he was indebted on account of tithes, stating twit at th e presen t momen t h e cou ld no t sa ti s fy hi s d eman d, as doing so he would be sure to lose his scat in the event of all election ?—( Hear, hear.) Could there, lie asked, be a 1 1,, "ger proof that the Popery cry had been raised in Ireland, " Was offered by the fact, that a member of that House, eise s fo I nguished as much for his political influence and power as r the eloq uence h e ca ll e d into play upon every question de ated within its walls, felt obliged to defer doing an act of teustiee, an act o f h onesty, b y t h e f ear th a t in doing so he would sacrificing his seat in Parliament ?—( Hear.) He called .Poe the House to refer to the case of Lord de Vesci. A .. 111(3r e benev o l ent , kind-hearted landlord than Lord.de Vesci never breathed; his estate was, in fact, the seat of happiness re d e Prosperity, an d y e t upon his bringing forward his son to 14 e sclat the coun ty to which he belonged, in Parliament, he ari in e on the moment the object of the most virulent attack If vi tuperation. Similar instances were plentiful. The Right nh• evening,th Chancellor of the Exchequer, observed, a forme r , that it would argue a disregard of jus -e as regarded Ireland, if the same measures which were ibis d to England country. Now were not extended to that with all due respect, was a perfect fallacy of argument. e e point of fact, there was no identity or assimilation of mea l-41:es between the two countries. Take the very Bills then 7 o re the House—take, for instance, the Constabulary Bill. t eald there be in principle anything more monstrous than e e p e it i n a country which boasted of its freedom, it was found tl' e sary for the protection of the lives of its people to keep a police f orce o f 5 , 0 0 0 men arme d w ith muskets, and con eetialY provided w ith b a ll-cartridges.—( Hear.) Nay, it was lik e found n ecessar y t o k ee p th e se men cooped in barracks 11 Soldier., to prevent their mixing too much with the people. • es e precautions the state of the country articular) re _ . • r e d m aw so that it was quite absurd . to talk of identity or assi. lan t . I°ll of measures between it and England. Then,. again, stood the case as regarded assistant-barristers in Ire i 11 7 ?, Why, those officers bad a power of trying cases .44 Ireland which not even the Judges of England possessed. oi`"ear, hear, hear.) Irish assistant-barristers had the power g civil causes of ejectment, and, without the aid (If tryi ng might assess damages under fifty pounds. pa t '. "le argument of identity of measures between the two d ie es was entirely fallacious ; for in almost every respect eaterent legislation had been applied to the distinct and sepe ta condition of each. The principal thing which Ireland re prored was repose and a cessation from agitation.—(Cheers.) p ear el a ref erence to t h e b oo k o f ev id ence b e f ore hi m , it ap the ed that upon the occasion of a late election at Clonmel, in key,shotuly of Tipperary, a most respectable individual, a qua for years previous had given employment to nearly souls, and who paid ire wages weekly upwards of 300/., fo r the so l e o ff ence o f vot i ng f or M r . B agwe ll, in opposi fut to the Liberal candidate, been attacked in the most shame mob at and obliged for a time to conceal himself from the tut e a f - t ,"'s house. This was, unfortunately, but one instance de• ns re ",e many. In what way, he asked, would the lower or al% toe Irish people be benefitted by the present measure ? Ite Y e ' t he only advantage they would derive from it was 4T: l ; 3 :ping rid of some few tolls. This would prove of ter" vantage, it was true, but certainly of far less than was et e d . all a% 7 o r d HOWICK said, with the exception of some personal tle nth ns, there was nothing whatever in the Right Hon. Gen bPon-Itte's sPeech.---t Cheers.) He had entered into a dispute id, nl `"e /act, as to whether or not the Hon. and 'Learned fr e t i tei t t for Dublin was the author of the clause which dis 11,Pon t i h se d the Irish 403. freeholders, and also into a dispute The la s -at s ame Hon. Member's conduct upon the occasion of (',oral election, proceeding from thence into what . he t ag st "°lvick) was afraid was a too true picture of the exist fore—ate of Ireland ; but in doing so, lie seemed totally to e, e s t , s et r that i t was incumbent upon them to show how all these sur e en dered the Bill before the House an improper ma hQ in' Or W hy, supposing all the assertions he indulged in to Rer ous substance correct, the House would be trying a clan (-11.Por experiment, in extending . to Ireland a measure of to the ate Reform in any respect similar to that lately granted aert ed People of England.—(Hear, hear.) It was as tl:at one of the objects of the Bill was to place in the er e i' s te f persons notoriously actuated by party spirit, the Wes tlatlministration of municipal justice; but how, he asked, • t h'a e t assertion capable of being sustained in the very face Esigh9shlaci)t.that the principle of the .present, as well as of the 41111 44 ."'ll, was the separation of all that related to the ad eenaeilat ion of justice from the political functions of the town s Kiel s i s ? ci - --( Hear.) What was, he asked, the state of things to /s oi l? ueed the Government in the last session to propose Cell a; I ,ament their measure of English Municipal Reform ? .lulti ce 4l , l cr Y a it was the circumstance that the administration of e i4 eeer e e impeded by the system under which the borough sesre ers ere enabled to elect magistrates and their own re tjte English any reference whatever to the Crown. In :.ro lert 6 V l an Bill this defect was remedied, by giving to the ably t "c nomination of magistrates and recorders, reserving theiq 0 the town councils the po b r of recommendation. Now, Pre I rish Bill theywet much we further ; for in it it was ex in il l : pro vided that the appointment should rest absolutely l a ° . be withrn ; and even the power of recommendation was te ut held from the councils which it was proposed to con ah • e * Great stress had been laid upon the proposal to allow she riffs to Great i t w b elect e d b y t h e town counci l, an d among ot h er and s of 4 P C ontended that this provision, by throwing into the th could select 7 t own council the appointment of the persons who im partial the j ury -li sts , m i g h t h ave great e ff ec t u p on To n he r rtial administ ra ti on of justice. Now in this objec would b confessed he saw nothing ; but at the same time it "e4 t intee P,e.rfectly optional with . the House, when the Bill as w as ‘-;ommittee to change this portion of the Bill ; and, l/ r t ßeer s, P t r o ° P v °_ted to be' done in the case of the other municipal °would the e re est the nomination of Sheriffs in towns in the hands d ev 7 ll . Now what, let him ask, were the functions that were upon the proposed municipal bodies ? Those a r,Pr oper jr n e neither more nor less than the management of 1 1 0 ( 1 th e raaYen now so grossly abused by existine Corporations, 4111 Gentl'geMent of those local concerns which the Right siae hehes "lan opposite had said he was perfectly willing to Gc won towns to administer. Was so largp a eity . as Dub k, to ern melit ? s \ l to be deprived of everything like a local ere such towns as Cork, Belfast, and Lime he deprived of all local Government ? Upon what pos- Qe th e i r O 'a t__ll9 , refuse such towns the power to ma n affairs ? The Right Honourable Baronet truth , ember for Tamworth last year stated, wish perfect I th e "te t • l 2 at s . great advantag,es. would result from giving Coul d local organization.—(Hear, bear.) He said that rk-;4olen_tniss:Lonterdseny_ the conclusion, from the Report- of the e„ 11 1 wh en the °I . Corporate Inquiry, that the time had ar of self-government should be ve and tre Islaceesort_hPoiawtwe.erre at prese . nt destitute of that power; . str orti 48 the enta l to goodP ions then existing ought to be made in government and improvement in the towns. shoal ngotnherreorporation of Dublin then be made in ntnteental to titibe Right ll:;"eilnment and improvement? Accord aronet's own statement the other eve -24,00, e corporation o'f Dublin had an income of not less than a- year ter "id ed for h should the administration of that property til( e 7 °f minY • the novel and most unconstitutional ex th_ _o lasts ) r attling commissioners by the Crown? The thedue adr : i, le Right Hon. Baronet said, provided for est nypoint_nei. ration of justice. But it was not by allowing J th Y s no nt of judges and magistrates. because ey 40 ernment then thought with respect to glandEn as te e vs th ee - h . . Ito pop ular with respect to Ireland, that the exercise of i g a rne ets „..7" . leas not the proper way to appoint men to the ue e r l e s i d thivsltle was fully convinced that to the great towns in e4re, any tewe ' s u r :vould afford an inestimable benefit. If there Pointed out. He was prepared to discuss, il th Cl i C s 4 4 ret o is n o e r ; s t be merits of every borough in Ireland ; and if es, t c ,;, °ll , l d be shown against any being included in fined for -reofuulstiggitvoe them up- What were the grounds eentrust the towns and cities lr land with the management of their own local a ;Nes ? (Hear, hear, hear.) -The Right Honourable and Gallant Officer had stated that one reason was, that party spirit raged in Ireland at this moment, and that the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin possessed a power which no subject ought to possess. That Hon. and Learned Gentleman had no right conferred upon him by Act of Parliament. It was conferred on and secured to him by the free will and pleasure of the people ; and if Hon. Gentlemen opposite made that deference which the people of Ireland thought proper to pay the Hon. and Learned Member, a reason for refusing to the Irish people the power of managing their own concerns, then they were bound, in common sense and reason, to carry their principle much further. They ought in that case to proceed to legis late against every principle of popular Government altogether. Loud cheers.) They must deprive the Irish people of all the political power they now posses=.—(Cheers.) The whole argument of the floe. and Learned Sergeant the Member for Bandon was directed not against allowing the people the management of their own local affairs, but against allowing them to choose members to represent them in the House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) Ile actually told the House that the commissioners fiur paving and lighting the town of Youghal were appointed and acted with a total absence of party spirit until the Noble Lord the Member for South Lancashire, reformed ti►e Irish boroughs. But if they would look at the consequences of refusing to pass this Bill, they would see that instead of preventing the danger Hon. Gentle men opposite apprehended from its aloption, the) would in crease the danger tenfold. As they could not take from the people of Ireland those political powers the Legislature had given them, the only safe policy they could now pursue was to endeavour to diminish the temptation to abase those powers, and to diminish the influence of the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman, by gaining back to the Government and to the Impe rial Legislature that respect and those affections which never ought to be taught to direct themselves to any other quarter. This was the mistake which Hon. Gentlemen opposite made; they looked only to one side of the question. The Right Hon. Baronet had asked whether the Jlouse were prepared to make these towns so many " normal schools of peaceful agi tation ?" The Right Hon. Baronet was ever ready to take advantage of any careless expresSion which might drop from an opponent. But there was great truth in what had been stated by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin as to these towns becoming " normal schools;" and in his (Lord Howick's) opinion, instead of that being a reason for voting against this Bill, it was a reason for passing it into a law. He believed that the Irish Corporations would be " normal schools," not of agitation, but for teach►ng the people of Ire land the right use of the powers of self-government.— (Cheers.) That Hon. and Learned Member had stated that he was willing to co-operate with the Government and the Le gislature to bring to pass that which would effectually sap the foundation of his power. lie (Lord Howick) perceived by the countenance of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that he disbelieved that assertion. But were that assertion true, or were it false, the policy this House ought to pursue was one and the same.—(Cheers.) Let them take advan tage of the interval of freedom from agitation that now pre vailed to do real and complete justice to Ireland. lie should sincerely regret, if on account of religion either in the Protestant cities of the north, or the Catholic cities of the south, those who differed from the majority should be permanently excluded from the corporations. He heard al most with disgust—certainly with a feeling of the most painful kind—the questions which in the beginning of the evening were addressed to an Hon. and Learned Friend near him ( Lord Howick) by the Hon. and Learned Ser geant the Member for Bandon.—(Hear, hear.) Did the House mark the emphasis, and hear the way in which that Hon. and Learned Member inquired whether he had ap pointed this Roman Catholic barrister and that Roman Ca. tholic barrister to different situations 7—(Loud cheers.) He (Lord Howick) was almost sorry his Hon. and Learned Friend answered the question. Had the question been addressed to him, he should have said—that a question addressed in that offensive manner he would not answer.—(Loud cheers.) He would say in this House, and everywhere else, that in matters of appointments to public situations he knew not the Roman Catholic or the Protestant.—( Renewed cheers.) He was glad to hear the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer who spoke last disclaim his having been a party to the getting up of that most odious cry of "No Popery." But could all the Hon. Mem bers on that side hold the same language ?—( Loud cheers.) He wished to know, had no encouragement been given by Gentlemen sitting opposite him to those Reverend itinerants who during the recess had been going about the country preaching religious intolerance in the name of Protestantism, which rested upon the right of private judgment, and hatred and religious animosity in the name of Christianity, which was the religion of peace and charity.—(Cheers.) But he did hope that the efforts of those miss►onaries of mischief—(Loud cheers)—to fan the flame of religious animosity had not so far succeeded, as, is the House should pass the Bill, would make the election of the town councils an instrument of rejecting the Protestant minority from all corporate offices. He did hope the House would consider well before it should agree to adopt the measure which had been proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. He trusted, before they determined to do so, they would coolly and impartially view what would be the real and substantial difference between the two projects. He was con ♦inced that if they would give their attention, to that question they would sec nothing whatever in the Bill now on the table which justified those imputations which had been cast upon it, and that by rejecting it they would, without any real or intel ligible object to them, both gratuitously and wantonly inflict a deep, and he was afraid, almost an irreparable insult on the Irish people.—( Loud cheers. ) The Noble Lord having resumed his seat, the House be came impatient to adjourn, and loudly called for Mr. Bro therton. The debate was then adjourned ; but whether on the motion of Mr. Brotherton, or some other lion. Member, we were not able to ascertain. STAFFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL. On the motion of Mr. DIVETT, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on this Bill. Captain C ET WYND objected to the preamble, as being unsupported by the facts of the case. It spoke of notorious and systematic bribery. He wished to know what proof there was in corroboration of the statement. Mr. DIVETT, in reply, begged to refer the Hon. Gentle man to the Report of the Committee. The House resumed. The other Orders of the Day were disposed of ; and the House adjourned at a quarter past one o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, 211.4neff 7. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at five o'clock. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL. The Earl of RIPON presented seven petitions from variou3 places in the county of Lincoln against the Probate Clause in the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill. The Duke of RUTLAND presented a petition to the same effect from the Attornies and Solicitors of the town and county of Leicester. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. The NOBLE DUKE also presented a petition from Walton in Leicester, and from the Leicestershire Agricultural Society, complaining of agricultural distress. TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. Lord HOLLAND presented a petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of the City of Lfin don, praying for the revision or repeal of the declaration to be made by Protestant Dissenters, contained in the 9th of Geo. IV., called the Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts. The Noble Lord stated that he should have felt great satisfaction at the time that that Act passed ifhe could have prevented that declaration from being inserted, but he was authorised by a great bodyjof Protestant Dissenters to consent to the Act being passed in the shape in which it did. Ile, however, at that time thought a great many of the evils would arise that were now complained of. Although he did not feel prepared to say it was his inten tion to propose any alteration on the subject, yet he should feel himself bound, if the. matter was taken up by any one of their Lordships, or by any Member of the other House, to give any measure that migl.t have the object in view prayed for by the petition he had presented, his most strenuous support. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL. The Earl of FALMOUTH presented petitions from Fal mouth and Exeter against the probate clause in the above Bill. The Bishop of LINCOLN presented a petition to the sam..! effect from Lincoln. The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions to the same effect from Newport, Cheltenham, and Carmarthen. BUILDING OF WORKHOUSES. _ _ Lord A SlfliUltToN presented a petition from the Paro chial Union of Devizes, praying that the loan for building workhouses might be extended to ten instead of twenty years. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that on Tuesday, the 15th inst., he should move the House that a Select Com mittee he appointed to inquire into the operations of the national system of education in Ireland. ORANGE LODGES. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY confessed that be was not sorry that his motion was deferred till that day. He had now the assistance of his Noble Friend ( Earl Roden) who, from his well known character, and from the manner in which he was respected in Ireland, would certainly be of great service upon this question.—( Hear, hear.) It had not been his intention to have entered into the policy of the measures which had been lately taken ; but with his feel ings excited as they were, he was afraid l►e must have said something with respect to what so intimately concerned the country which gave him birth. He confessed that he was much surprised on a former evening, on being told by a Noble Viscount opposite (Melbourne) that he (Lord Londonderry) was not, or ought not to be interested, and could care nothing for this question—that was an assertion made by the Noble Lord when he was in one of his off-hand ways.—( Laughter.) He doubted whether the Noble Viscount in the midst of I►is multifarious duties had had time to look through the case, and find whether it affected him ( Lord L.) or not ; but the Noble Viscount was in the habit of coming down to that House and stating things in an off-hand way, which rather astonished many of their Lordships. For instance, he re membered him coming down to that House and stating that the decree of Don Carlos was noth►ng—that there was no truth in it.—( Hear.) He also remembered him coming to the House, and stating that he took the Govern ment upon the appropriation clause ; upon it he stood—and yet, strange to say, they had never heard one word of it. He hoped to be able to show, before he sat down, that he was right in the course he was pursuing ; and he trusted that the Noble Viscount n - ould not treat him with that dignified silence which was sometimes his habit, but state whether if he had been placed in the same situation—whether if he I►ad been mixed up with the doings of a Society of which he ( Lord L.) knew as little as the Noble Viscount— (Hear, hear,) would he be contented to remain under th ese aspersions ? From the short experience he had of Parliamentary life, be had always understood that gentlemanly feeling and honour required that, when documents were read af fecting the character of a Member of the Legislature, they should be read in extols°, and not be garbled.—( Hear, hear.) He also thought that it was generally usual to give notice to the person accused, so that he might either be pre sent, or have some of his friends present, in order to defend the accused party. It had happened that he had had an affectionate and a gallant son present, who would not allow such false charges to go forth against his father : he pinned the accuser down, and extracted a verdict of not guilty, but it was given in such a way, the animus was shown so strongly, that he laughed the whole matter to scorn. He begged to state that he was paeparcd in the first instance to bring the whole subject before the House ; but his friends—ho did not mean the Noble Duke, late at the head of the Society, or any of those Noble Lords who were implicated in the charge—with neither of them hed he had the slightest 'communication ; but some of his private friends had said, " Oh, wflnt do you care for Mr. Hume or Mr. O'Connell ? Who cares for what they say ? It would be a work of supererogation on your part, at your thee of life, and after having gone through your profession with the honour which you have received, to notice one word which fell from such men."—( Laughter.) His feelings were very much of the same nature as his friends ; but then Mr. Hume and Mr. O'Connell by the unfortunate position in which the country was now placed, had the power to delude one half of the people ; nay more, it would be in vain for the Noble Viscount, or any Noble Lord opposite, to get up and deny that the directing power of the Government was in their hands.—( Hear, bear.) When he said this he must also say that an individual standing in his humble position could not, and ought not, to put aside those insinuations. If his opinion was er roneous he took it from a Journal which he considered one of the most able and classic he had ever read ; there was one sentence which was stated in that Journal which he would read to their Lordships. That at once decided him as to the course he should pursue, notwithstanding he had had no communication with any Noble Lord on that side of the House. After reading that, he was convinced that he ought to go forward. The paragraph he referred to was this— " The innocent man whO submitted to slander might take, and probably did take, the wisest course when he submitted in silence—( Hear, hear)—but he did not take the wisest course, when he purchased private peace at the sacrifice of public utility."---( Cheers.) If, before he sat down, he did not expose the slanderous accusations that had been made, he should be greatly mistaken.—(Cheers.) He would now pro ceed to read what he had seen in the public Journals, in order to show their Lordships the necessity of bringing the subject before them. In the debate in the House of Commons cer tain letters were read, and certain inferences were drawn._ ( Cheers.) He did not blame the reporters, because he was sure they were not only most honourable men, but they would not wilfully state any thing against any person (even one so humble as himself), that had not been' stated.—(Cheers.) The Noble Marquis then read several extracts from the debate in the House of Com mons, in which certain letters had been read by Mr. Flume with reference to the succession to the crown. Now he would ask their Lordships whether any person reading that paragraph would not suppose that he had stated that a case would arise in which an alteration in the succession to the Throne would be necessary ? When such an accusation was made against him. he naturally looked to see if it was well founded, and he was at a loss to find even a single ground for it. He held in his hand the original letters which passed between himself and Colonel Fairman in 1832, and when they were put into the hands of the clerk of their Lordships' house, they would see the interlineations, the interpolations, and, in short, the total difference between them and those published in the Report of the Committee of the House of Commons. There were no less than 22 differences between the printed copies and the original letters. They were not all import ant, but some of them entirely altered the sense of the letters. In one case, speaking of the Ministry in the• orieinal letter, he (the Marquis of Londonderry) had said " the abject slaves of a ferocious, revolutionary. and subversive press" —while in the printed copy it was " the abject slaves of a ferocious, sans guinary, and subversive press."—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) In another passage, speaking of the Whigs, he word " sedi tious" was applied to them in the printed copy, although it was not in the original letter. The Noble Marquis then proceeded to read die first letter he had received from Colonel Fairman, in which the latter alluded to a conference with his Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland, and which he would declare upon his honour as a Peer had never takes place, and therefore the statement was altogether unfolinded. (The reading of Colonel Fairman's first letter, which has been already published, occasioned much laughter.) Not having answered that letter for a few days he had received a second one, and he then thought it necessary to reply. In that year, 1832, when he remembered the Birmingham Union, and the P.~litu al Trachie Unions, and the attacks on many of the houses of their Lerdslapi in that city, who were opposed to Reform —( Cries of " Hear")—and the views of these associations. He (the Marquis of Londonderry) had not retained a copy of that letter, and in consequence had been obliged, through the medium of a friend, to apply to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Flume) by whom it had been quoted in the other House, for a copy of it. This the Hon. Gentleman had consented to do, and he (the Marquis of Londonderry) was thus enabled to read it to their Lordships. It was in these terms : " Wynyard Park, August 8, 1832. " Sir,—l am honoured with your two communications of the 29th and 30th ult. You do me only justice in believing that I would most willingly embrace every opportunity and do ,all in my power to espouse the cause, and establish the in stitutions you allude to, in this part of the kingdom." When he expressed his readiness to facilitate, as far as possible, the establish ment of the institutions alluded to, he never contemplated thorn in the shape of secret societies. If it had been his intention to intro duce Orange Societies into the North of England, he would natu rally have first made himself master of the details of such Societies. —(Hear, hear.) He would have attended the Orange Societies in London, and have taken care to have hut himself regularly and properly initiated as an Orangeman.—( Hear, hear.) 'But he had done nothing of the kind ; and when he talked of lending his aid to establish Institutions in the North, he meant only to establish Institutions of such a nature and character as should unite the loyal and well-disposed part of the population in opposition to those who were carried away by - the democratic spirit of the day.—(H ear ,' hear.) In his letter, in reply to Colonel Fairman, he added— But the present state of Liberal Whig feeling in this very Whig county, and the very refractory and insubordinate state of the pitmen, entirely preclude the possibility of successful efforts at this juncture. I have had a full conversation and communication with Lord Kenyon on all this matter, who has been in nay house these last two days, and I have.no doubt he will convince his Royal Highness, as well as yourself, that the present moment is not the time when the object can be forwarded. " I will lose no opportunity of embracing any opeaing that may arise ; and " I have the honour to be, Sir, your very obedient servant, (Signed) 66 VANE LONDONDERRY." He thought that the way in which he there mentioned the con versation he had had with Lord Kenyon, who was then stay ing at his house for a few days to enjoy the company of a com mon friend of theirs, the late Bishop of Durham, afforded an: other pretty strong proof that previous to that time he had had no communication on the subject with his Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland.—( Hear, hear.) Shortly after he had written this letter to Colonel Fairman, he called upon Mr. Wright of Sunderland, a solicitor of great respectability, an d a man of very considerable ability, to ascertain the nature of the conversation which had taken place between him and Col. Fairman, and also to learn what his views and feelings upon the subject were. Finding that Mr. Wright's name had been alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) who brought forward the subject of Orange Lodges in the other House the other evening, he (the Marquis of Londonderry) immediately wrote to that Gentleman, and he would read to their. Lordships the answer he had received :--My Dear Lord—l had the honour of receiving your Lordship's letter of the 26th inst. : and in reply to your Lordship's inquiries I beg to state that I never had any conversation with Colonel Fairman on the subject of the establishment of Orange Lodges amongst the p i tme n, with whore, as your Lordship knows, I am in no man ner acquainted ; nor do I understand by the letter read by Mr. Hume, in Isis speech in which my name is mentioned, that any conversation with me as to the pitmen, is alleged by Colo nel Fairman to have taken place. I recollect the time at which Colonel Fairman (to whom I was introduced in June or July, 1832) spoke to me of the public advantage he conceived would result from the establishment of Orange lodges in Sunderland : and he asked me, if your Lordship had much in fluence in that town ? I expressed my opinion that your Lordship bad much influence in Sunderland ; but I doubted the necessity of establishing Orange lodges there. It is pos sible it may have escaped your Lordship's recollection; but I remember in August, 1832, I was at Wynyard-park, on a visit to your Lordship, the very day Lord Kenyon left, and on the following day your Lordship mentioned to me that you had received letters from Colonel Fairman, soliciting your aid in the establishment of Orange lodges in the north of England, and thit you had written him an answer declining to interfere in the matter. lam certain this is the only conversation your Lordship and I ever had upon the subject of Orange Lodges, and know, both from the manner in which your Lordship expressed yourself on that occasion, and from your never having alluded to the subject in conversa tion with me since, that you never entertained the idea of establishing Orange Lodges in the North of England." The third letter be received from Col. Fairman was dated At kinson's Hotel, Glasgow, October 3d, 1833, and its only ob ject was to inform him (the Marquis of Londonderry) that a grand Conservative dinner was to take place at Glasgow, and to request him to attend it. To this letter, as far as he co uld remember, he replied, that he should have the greatest' satis faction in attending the meeting at Glasgow, and he believed he wrote to the Duke of Gordon at the same time, or :.bout the same time, to say that be was desirous to use every effort ie his power to organize loyal and constitutional associations to counteract what he conceived to be the.baneful influence of the Liberal and Radical Associations which had become so gene ral in every part of the Kingdom—Associations which the Go vernment of the day refused to put down. As the letters he had read—which were all that had ever passed between him and Colonel Fairman—were dated - in 1832 and 1833, he thought that their Lordships, and even the Noble Viscount (Melbourne) opposite would admit, that there could be no pos sible connection between them and the alleged project for al tering the succession to the Throne, which was not suppose d to ire been entered into until 1835.—( Hear, hear.) Colonel Fairm an ' s l etters were pro d uce d, h e . supposed, by the order of the H ouse o f C ommons , on th e i nqu iry before the Com mittee appointed by that House to investigate the re portof Orange Societies; but their Lordships would ob serve, that the Honourable Member for Middlesex, in his statement on that subject a short time since, in the other House, declared that he had only obtained possession of his ( the Marquis of Londonderry's) reply to those letters a few hours before he went down to the House and opened the de bate. Now lie begged their Lordships to look a little to the It was fortunate, an rtun y ate, perhaps, that the Member for Mid dlesexfacts. otherwise,t a n e e, supposingt that letter that ofth there into his possession ; because had been no answe r to Colonel Fairman's letter, the Hon. Member in his usual liberal manner might have said, ' 6 Oh I ~. THE SUN, LON DON, TUESDAY, - MARCH .8, iB:6. here is the proposition made to Lord Londonderry, but there is no answer, and, therefore, of course, Lord Londonderry • has assented and agreed to all the propositions which Colonel Fairman set forth." By good fortune, therefore, not by the base and atrocious conduct of some one or other, this letter of his had come up. He would now put his case to the Noble Viscount (Melbourne), who, though not Granl Master of an Orange lodge, was Grand Master of the British Government, with a deputy °rand master, under whose dominion he feared he was too much placed. As Grand Master of the Goverernent the Noble Viscount of course would have a secretary. Now that secretary might be a very clever fellow, but he might also be a very deep one—he might be an admirable writer—he might write in the Noble Viscount's name—he might receive answers to letters so written, and keep them in his own possession—he m i g ht wr ite Philippics in the newspepers against the Neble Visc t punt's political adversaries—all these - things he might do; but in the cud it might turn out that the secretary had de ceived the Noble Viscount very much, and on any slight dif ference between them he might desert the Noble Viscount, and, having certain letters in his possession, might, four years afterwards, place those letters in the hands of one of the Noble Viscount's political opponents, to be used in de bate against him. Supposing, for instance, that he (the Mar quis of Londonderry), one of the Noble Viscount's political opponents, bad got hold of a number of his private letters sur reptitiously, by purchase or otlievwise, what would their Lord ships think of him if he came into that House and read those private letters, without giving the Noble Viscount any notice that he was going to do so—without giving him the means, in any shape, of showing how he lied been deceived—and upon the strength of particular passages contained in those letters, draw insinuations or founded charges against the Noble Vis count ? What svoulitheir Lordships think of him, if he were to take such a coursT? Why, they would treat him with all the contempt and ignominy which such a proceeding would deserve. How, then, was such conduct to be defended in others? Would the Noble Viscount get up in that House to vindicate the con duct of his partisans—those to whom he owed his political existence? It was to. be observed that this was not .a solitary instance of groundless accusations being brought against Conservative Peers. A similar licence had been permitted to another individual. He understood that in his own parti cular instance a sort of joint-stock affair was made of it be tween the Hon. Member for Middlesex and the Learned Member for Dublin. These were the acknowledged friends of the Government. He said, therefore, that the Noble Vis count at the head of the Government was bound to tell the House whether he approved of this mode of attack upon indi vidual character—whether he thought it honourable—whe ther he thought it did his Government credit.—( Hear, hear.) If he (the Marquis of Londonderry) were to look at the ani mus of the attack, lie should think that it was a good deal connected with an arrow which some time since was shot from the same quiver, when the attention of the other House was called to the part which lie (the Marquis of Londonderry) had taken at the great loyal and Protestant assembly which took place in the North of Ireland in 1834. He gloried in the part he took on that occasion ; but what was the con sequence? From that time forth he was a marked man, and the object of the grossest and most malignant attacks, ever and again repeated, in the other House of Parliament. Coupling the attacks made by the Learned Member for Dublin on that branch of the Legislature, with what' was brought forward by the Member fur Middlesex the other night, he begged to ask distinctly whether the Noble Viscount did not feel that this combination between these two individuals was intended to go a little further than the mere Orange question ? He could not sit down without saying a few words upon the subject of the suppressi on o f O range Societies in Ireland. His Majesty having been pleased to take the advice of his Ministers and of the Commons upon that subject, God forbid that he should say any thing calculated to breed dissatisfaction or dis content. But let the Noble Lords opposite and let the Government seriously reflect how much the success of their new policy must depend upon the exertions of his Noble Friend the Noble Earl ( Roden) near him. He begged those Noble Lords and the Government to remember what the Protestants of Ulster did in the year 1834. He trusted in God that the measure might be successful, and that it might lead to the establishment of that sort of union in Ireland, without which lie believed in his conscience Ireland would not long remain attached to the British Crown. But as the Noble Viscount had been so strenuous and so prompt in' putting down one party, let him ask whether he would use the exertions, whether he would employ the same power to put down Ralicalism ?—( Hear, and a langle ) Dared the Noble Viscount to take such a course ? Dared he to shake off the incubus which weighed upon him now, depressing his energies and warping his power? When his Majesty's present Minis ters came into power, lie (the Marquis of Londonderry) had declared that he entertained much inure apprehension of dan ger to the Protestant interest in Ireland from the use which would be made of the Royal prerogative in that country, than from any positive legislative measure. His view had been borne ou t by th e resu l t . At that very mo m e n t a severe penal code was enforced in Ireland against the Protestants ; and those alone were appointed to fill offices of dignity who were political Papists, and religiously tolerant. He had always maintained that Catholics ought not to be excluded from office any more than Protestants. Viscount ME L BOURNE said, with respect to most of the statements comprehended in the Noble Marquis's speech, he must say that nothing could be mare disorderly. The Noble Lord not only alluded to speeches made in the other House of Parliament, but commented in detail on particular passages of those speeches. Such a practice, if it were permitted to pre vail, would be not only inconvenient, but would lead to end less discussion. He ( Lord Melbourne) had, however, made no objection to the course thus taken by the Noble Marquis, because, as the No!sle Marquis stated that he was on his de. fence, he was unwilling to interrupt him. At the same time he must distinctly protest against the debate of that night being brought into a precedent on the subject on any future occasion, because, as he had already remarked, it must always be at tended with great inconvenience, and, might lead to endless discussion. He (Lord Melbourne) had said on a former oc casion, that the Noble Marquis stood completely exculpated, and that there was nothing against which he had to defend him self. But although he was of that opinion when the Noble Marquis intimated his intention of making the speech which he had just made, he could not say that he was pre cisely of that opinion, now that lie had heard the Noble Marquis's defence.—( Hear, hear.) In his ( Lord Mel bourne's) opinion, the Noble Marquis had made ou t a stronger case against himself than had exi s t e d b e f ore . H e was exceedingly unwilling to enter into any discussion ; for it was his most anxious wish, that all which had passed might be forgotten ; that it might all be buried and lost. That happy consummation appeared to be obtained by one of the letters which the Noble Marquis had read, although there were parts of that letter of which he could not approve. He (Lord Mel bourne) was always prepared to make the fullest allowance for the acts of human beings under excitement such as that to which the Noble Marquis had referred as existing in the year 1832. It was not surprising that the Noble Marquis should be anxious to bring together in Ireland at that period as many persons as he could collect who concurred with him in the principles which he supported. But, as to Colonel Fairman's letter to the Noble Marquis, although he willingly admitted, that unless that letter contained something which it would be criminal to conceal, it could not possibly inculpate the Noble Marquis, who was merely the receiver of it.—He ( Lord Mel bourne) should be very sorry to be made responsible for all the absurd and extravagant letters which were sent to him.— (Loud laughter.) But he begged to say, that the letters of Colonel Fairman contained some very strong pas- . sages. . They pointed - distinctly to resistance to his . Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear.) These passages appeared more strong, when it was recollected that they were written by a soldier, and to a Noble Lord who bad himself been a soldier ; and yet, in reply, the Noble Marquis said nothing about those passages. The Noble Marquis had extensively censured the course which had been pursued with reference to Orange societies. There was only Bone part of that course for which his Majesty's Government was responsible; namely, the Al dross to his Majesty from the House of Commons, or rather the King's answer to that Address. He ( Lord Melbourne) repeated, however, that he was most anxious to dismiss the whole subject. He was averse to all societies 'of a secret cha racter. Whether they were corresponding societies or political unions ; whether they were preSided over by Princes of the I Blood or only by operative mechanics, he had always con sidered—although he was aware that they might comprehend ' many men of the. highest honour and sincerity—that they were dangerous. The members of such societies did not know what they had done, what they were doing, or what they might do. And when the whole conduct of the society was presented to their view, they were surprised at the pro ceedings of which they, without being aware of it, had been partakers. Honourable men, in such societies, un avo id a bly got into the hands of men, of agents, who were seldom per sons of the greatest discretion, of the purest motives, or of the best conduct.—( Hear, hear.) But, although lie had always disapproved of such Associations, he had always felt the great difficulty of putting them down. He trusted, how ever, that on the present occasion, the feeling which had been manifested on all sides, and the course which had been pursued by the leaders of the society in question, would produce results much more sure and satisfactory than could have b een o b ta i ned by any pos i t i ve law. Being accompl i s h e d in that manner, it would be much more advantageous to the country, and would effect more certain and permanent good. The Noble M arqu i s complain e d o f th e e xclusive 'system which at p resent preva il e d i n I re l an d . H e (L or d M e lb ourne ) did not believe in the existence of such a system. He was always desirous that patronage should be exercised with as little party influence as possible. He had always lamented the necessity that a popular Government should be conducted by a party ; and that the Sovereign and the country should thereby be deprived of the assistance of so many men. r.lio.were qualified to render the State essential services. But it was evident that every Government must confide in those who entertained political opinions similar to their own. As far, therefore, as the patronage of the Government in Ire land might have been so exercised (that it was so exercised to an unjustifiable extent lie utterly denied), that was not their fault or crime ' • it was attributable to those individuals who either had separated themselves from the Government to which they were formerly attached, or who had set themselves to oppose that Government in a manner which the rules of the House would not allow him to call factious, but which was certainly injurious to the country. The Noble Marquis asked if individuals who had belonged to Orange lodges were henceforward t o b e exc l u d e d, on principle, from any official situation ? Hi s ( Lord Melbourne's) answer was, undoubtedly not ; unquestionably not. If such a course were pursued, it wouldintroduce a system of exclusion and disabilities which he would be the last man in the world to sup port.—( hear, hear.) The ss • Lord Li eu tenant might not think it his duty to employ men who conceived themselves so bound by their former character as 0,-agemen, that they must act in com plete conformity to that character ; but he (Lord Melbourne) was quite convinced that nothing further than . , that was in tended ; f or to exclude individuals f rom o ffi c e simply because they had oaee belonged to Ofange societies would be great injustice. lie must again declare the gratificiltion which he felt at the sentiments which had been expressed, and the dis position which had been manifested, to contmrin the intimation contained is the Address of the House of Commons, and in his Majesty's answer.; and he hoped that they should now for ever get rid of this painful and distressing subjoct.—( Hear. ) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY begg:d to read the passage ia reference to what hcl fallen from the Noble Vis;•ount, as to the disciplining of the Orange force. The let ter ran thus : By a rapid augnielltation of our phy4:al force we might be able to assume a boldness of attitude"— now lot the Noble Lord mark what followed " which should command the respe c t o f our Jacobinical rulers."—(Laughter.)% He begged the Noble Lord's pardon, but as the Noble Lord had alluded to the organization of the physical force of the Orange Society, he thought it right to point out the object. The Duke of CUMBERLAND rose, and said—My Lords, I an naturally anxious to offer a few observations to your Lordships upon the present occasion, for you would de se.vedly think me an unworthy Member of this House were I not boldly, manfully, end distinctly to state my feelings upon the subject now under discussion, and especially as you have so often heard my name mentioned in reference to it. Net, My Lards, that I shrink from one single act or word which I have either done or said; for I have neither done or said that which I am not prepared to defend. It would be 'idle to tell your Lordships that for the last six mouths I have been abused, accueed, and treated in the most cruel me:,_ tier in which ever human being was treated—nee , e it that were true which has been stated of me, instead of standing here in my place to address your Lord s hips 3.4 ti Member o f this House, I ought to be at that bar as a. testltor (so we un derstood his Royal Highness.) Bet I never could be be lieved here, surrounded by such men as 1 aim now surrounded by, to be such a madman as to render it necessary that I should answer that charge—l, who have during the whole course of my life been the most decided supporter of all legitimacy. God forbid that that moment should ever come; but if any madmen should ever be found ready to propose such a design es thee with which I and other Noble Lords have been charged, sh mid not we, I say, be amongst the first to saceiiiee every drop of blood—(Hear)—in our veins in defence of That inno cent person whose debts would be assailed ?—( Cheers.) Wu ere not the persons to whom such a charge should be imputed, but those rather should be selected who, not merely satisfied with change, arc eve seeking to overturn.—(l-fear.) I say, my Lords, that I am not a party man ; I look not to men but to measures ; and if those with whom I act were to deviate in the least from the principles which I entertain, I should be the very first to oppose -them. My Lords, I do not deny myself; to be the Grand Master of the Orange Institution. I did not seek the office, nor did I wish for it; it was proposed to me; and then, I beg leave to assure your Lordships, I did not ac cept it until I had received the full concurrence of his late Majesty George the Fourth, who said ,that it was in good hands. Now, I appe a l t o th e H ouse , if I h ave not b een a firm and true Orangeman ? What are the principles of Orange lam ? Fear God, honour the King. And is it riot a proof that I have been true to those principles, when I declare that even prior to receiving any information respecting the resolu tion of the House of Commons I had, in common with other Noble Lords, come to a determination to write that address with which your Lordships are already well acquainted. Be it remembered, my Lords, that the circumstances of the period when I first became Grand Master of the Orange Society and those of the present time are widely different ; a vast change has been produced by everything that has taken plac e b e t ween the year 1827, when I fi rs t t oo k upon myself the office of Grand Master, and the present year. Never was there, I may safely say, a firmer, stronger, or more zealous supporter of the Protestant interest than the individual who is now addressing you ; and that was the object —a desire solely to support the Protestant cause in Ireland—that induced me to join the Orange institution. That cause, my Lords, I do look upon to be now in a dangerous state. I feel it—l know it ; and in proportion .to that is the necessity that the connection should be closer between the Protestants of England and of Irel en e. That Was my object in joining the Society ; and from the mo ment-.I heard that Isis Majesty discountenanced it, it became my duty, in accordance with the principles upon which I act, to recommend its dissolution. But never shall I be induced to change my principles : and I declare to your Lordships that I do look upon the Protestant cause in Ireland as in the greatest danger at this moment; and I am bound also to say that I feel equally afraid of the Protestant cause in this country. I beg . to assure Noble Lords that I mean nothing personally offen sive to them in any observations which I may make, but after the things which have occurred within the last three weeks there cannot be a Protestant living who does not feel alarmed and shocked.---( Hear, hear.) Nothing shall ever deter me from doing that which I conceive to be my duty, and from my principles in support of the Protestant interest I shall never shrink.—(Hear, hear.) Lord WYNFORD (who was throughout but very imper fectly heard in the gallery) said, after • a few preliminary re marks which we did not catch, that his connexion with the Orange Institution w as ver y s h ort , as h e h a d b een i n i t i ated only about - two years ago, upon an application from one with whom he was intimately connected, and for whom he enter . - tainel the greatest respect ; and he was then told that its ob ject was to inculcate true loyal principles, and to support Pro testantism. Having been informed, in answer to a question from himself whether there were any secret oaths, that there were not, he had consented to become a member. He attended the meetings only three times, but he was ready to declare up on his honour, or, if it should be required, upon his oath, that upon no one occasion when he was present did he hear a single principle agitated which was in the least at variance with the principles upon which the Orange Institution was founded— the principles of loyalty to the Throne, and of affording unre mittit'e support to the Protestant i n t eres t. H e , h owever, w i t h other Noble Lords, had been wickedly and infamously, aed without foundation, charged with an attempt to change the suc cession. Such a charge Noble Lords would eaturally suppose to have been made upon some kind of evidence ; but upon looking at the Report of the Committee, it would be found that there was no such letter as that which had been attributed' _ to him (Lord Wynford). He should like to know how the Honourable Gentleman who had brought forward the charge could excuse himself for having done so without one scrap of evidence. How did the Hon. Gentleman procure that letter ? He ( Mr. Hume) dared not avow how he got it. He ( Lord Wynford) would now beg to call the attention of the Hoase to some of the terms employed in that letter. After his late illness he could not see to read the extract, but he would state to their Lordships the substance. In that letter he told Colonel Fairman to take care in what company he (Colonel Fairman) made such appeals as he (Lord Wynford) had seen reported. Now, what was it that led to that remark? Why, it w merely this :—Colonel Fairman had spoken of the success with which the health of the illustrious Duke (Cum berland) had been proposed at several meetings, and because he knew—he hoped the Noble Duke would not be (Acceded with what he was about to say—that in consequence of his straightforward and manly conduct, it was not improbable that in any mixe.l company his Royal Highness should have some enemies ; therefore it was that he had advised caution as to the . compaey hi which such appeals should be made. Deeply as he was indebted to the Royal Family, his (Lord Wynford's) feelings would have been most seriously hurt if the indiscre tion of any individual had brought any Member of that Family into the situation which he apprehended from such incautious appeals. Thus, then, that letter applied only to proposing the health of the Illustrious Duke, as would have been evident from another letter, which was, however, destroyed; indeed he never had any idea of preserving that correspondence ; most of the letters, he believed, were consigned by him to the nearest fire. Yet upon that evidence was such a charge founded. " Whatever may be the angry feelings," said the Noble Lord, " of the individual who has brought this charge (and I know he does entertain angry feelings), yet I can tell him that he is mistaken, and that he ought not to entertain them ; for I a.n not the person who put him in that position in which he was once placed." He hoped that all the letters might be published—he had never written a letter upon which such a construction could be put as had been put on the one produced, by any one that was not worked upon by some sense of supposed injury. Something had been said about Orange lodges in the army, and he had been charged with thankiog- Puccila. for proposing their establishment. Now, he denied the fact; Pucella never had been thanked for anything of the kind ; but only for the establishment of a lodge at Rome. He supposed they wished to make the Pope an Orangeman.— ( A laugh.) The fact was, that the Illustrious Duke had pro posed their aholition, and ho (Lord Wynford) was the first to propose a vote of thanks to his Royal Highness upon that ac ' count, and a resolution— The Duke of CUMBERLAND never consented to their establishment at all. When they were proposed, he had said that his principles would not permit him to sanction them either in the army or nTliv, Lord WYNFORD had no doubt the Noble Duke was right. The vote of thanks, then, was for opposing their adop tion, and the resolution to establish the same principle. With respect to the decision of the other House, he knew nothing of it till it was all over, but he hastened there to express his opi nions upon the subject, and for the indulgence which the House had extended to him lie begged, in conclusion, to return his sincere thanks. The Earl of RODEN said that the House must be aware how anxious be was to address it on the present occasion ; he felt fully the responsibility of his position, and the duty which he owed to those whose cause he was bound to advo cate. He could not but express his thanks to the Noble Mar quis for having !postponed his motion from a former day, in order to give him an opportunity of addressing their Lord sl4s. Connected as he had been for somo years with the Orange Institution of Ireland, well acquainted as lie must be with the principles upon which it proceeded, and sincerely attached as lie ever should be to the sacred cause for the sup port of which it was founded, it must be a matter of regret to him for any person to enter upon the discussion of its interests, or to have the opportunity of misrepresentiirg its objects, and he not be present to refute such misrepresentation. But no such observations, no such insinuations, had been made upon the present occasion; there had not been, nor could there be, any insinuations against the loyalty of the Orangemen of Ireland. There might be, and he knew that there was, amongst men of the most upright principles and soundest judgment great difference of opinion as to the expediency of such insti tutions existing at all. While, however, in that House no charges had been made, charges had been made in another place, which, he would venture to sal, were as strongly marked by vulgar abuse as by malignity a:.d unmanly malice.—( Cheers.) Such a statement bad gone forth through the.publie Press as he might confidently say was never sur passed in falsehood. He'felt that it would be taking up more of the time o f t h e H ouse than he ought by going into those charges verbatim et seriatim but there was one w hich had been already allud e d t o b y t h e N o bl e M arqu i s and Illustrious Duke wh o h a d preceded him, and to which he also , as a if:en:- ber of the log a l O ra n ge Institution of Ireland, felt bona do call the attenti on o f t h e H o use. It had been stated—an d state: with such effrontery as to create belief in-the minds of • some ignorant persons—that it was the intention, not only of several N..ble Lords, and amone•st them the Illustrious Duke (Cumberland), but also of the wale Orange Society, to change the succession a to ris t i h nw e gol l ue ' l l d i g ro rba n ei e n . f 001 .fDa honesty do instantnleiestsyu p i suppose o n sit his srttlatcs costs; me s d o p o r bs i vi d t i ia e un u ny s o downro But that; it o u at s d atio hat e been his d u t y to have come a looson e a wouldS vrli a o l it House, and claimed from their L or d s hi ps a Committee to have examined witnesses on oath, and t o h ave compelled the nat.., ties to prove their infamous calumny.—(Hhaa, hear.) was not for him, as the case stood, to make any such claim in order to establish, or insult, the hyalty of th e Oranges-, en o f Ireland. He would be satisfied to deri ve t h e i r claim Irons . the acknowledgment of their attachment, fidelity, and loyalty to the Throne from the time of Queen Elizabeth to the present day. To establish that it was only necessary to refer to sh e page of history, and there would be found the record of their achievements. Nor was it necessary for him to detain , a l „,, House by any statement as to the line of conduct purs•sed by the Orangemen of Ireland; he did not stand the to assert their loyalty. But they would always he whenever the question had reference to Protestantisa n in Ireland, or the Legislative Union, whenever the one was assailed or ;he other attempted to be fit atr,-;,,d, they would ever be found supporting both th e one and the other. ' to every da nger : 7 ,vhether in the year 1793, in 1831, in 1832, or in 18a" —( Hear, hear, hear.) _ Lucy were ever ready to throw theinselvesinto the br iach, and sacrifice everything in defence of the Throne and the heirs of the House of Hanover. But he would beg to ask who were the accusers of the Orangemen ?—( Cheers. ) Why, those very persons who, having sworn to support the Protes tant Church in Ireland, were doing all in, their power to un dermine and overthrow it. Who were their assailants? \Vhy, the very demagogues who were some time since fawning upon and flattering the Orangemen, when the object was to induce them to join in the cry for a repeal of the Legislative Union. —( Loud cheers.) Bet the Orangemen were too loyal to listen to such a proposal, because they knew that it meant the dismemberment of the British Empire.—( Hear.) Who were their slanderers? Why, the enemies of the Protestant reli gion, who knew very well the power which the Protestant cause r:ceivad from the brotherhood of the Orange Society—. .([lsar, hear)—that brotherhood which has ever formed the insu mountable barrier to their revolutionary projects. tic remembered having once read of one Of the servants of Rome who, when falsely accused, in reply to the charge against him pointed to the Capitol, and the remembrance of the deeds which he had performed in defence of his coun try were considered a sufficient answer. The Protestants of Ireland could do no more—they could truly say that they had saved their country, and might point to the province of Ulster, and the peace, tranquillity, and good will which there prevailed, • as an undying and imperishable monument to their honr'ur. He spoke warmly on this subject, because he felt wasrmly. He admitted that in a wholesome state of society, and when the law was properly and impartially vindicated, that it would be inexpedient to allow tile establishment of 'such Societies. But was the law vindicated in Ireland ? Was not the law n. dead letter on the statute-book ?—( Hear, hear, from the Op position.) Were the property and lives of his Majesty's loyal subjects safe, and were they watched over and rseserved by the Government of the country ?—( Renewed cries of " Hear, hear," from the same quarter.) He would nefer to the murders daily recorded in the public [whits, he state of the Irish clergy, for an answer to the question. - The Noble Viscount had alluded to the course pursued by his Majesty's Govern ment with respect tt Orahige lodges. That course was, in his opinion, a calarhitous one. The Noble Viscount little knew what were, : hie feelings and impressions of the humbler classes wino Belonged to that society on hearing the decision of bisaself and his colleagues. The Noble Viscount -was not perhaps aware that the Orange Society took its origin from amongst. the humbler classes of Protestants, in order to eounseract the effects of other Societies which had been established in Ireland, by which the greatest persecution and depredation were practised on the Protestants. That Society had grown with the growth, and increased its the affection of these people. There was another ground, however, on which he dissented from the course pur sued by Ministers, and that was that a precedent had been thereby established which might, before long, be brought to . bear against their Lordships' own House, and which might tend to the destruction of the Constitution itself._( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Cumberland and other Opposition Lords.) He did not know whether their Lordships were aware that this Society was so constituted, that it could not be dissolved by any individual, Id that none could dissolve it but the Grand Orange Lodge, properly and duly convened. He found that a summons had been issued for convening that lodge on the 14th of next month, for the purpose of taking into con sideration the best course to pursue under the exigency in which the Society was at present placed. He conceived that the best way in which he could show his loyalty to his Sovereign, his attachment to his brethren, and his duty to his country, was to attend that meetin g in person, and there exp ress hi s . p i n i on , whatever it might be, on the subject. None of their Lord ships could enter into his feelings as connected with the Orange Society of Ireland—none of their Lordships could duly sympathise with the noble and honourable men who be longed to that body, some of whom had taken the course which he had done, and by which they had been cut to the heart's core in the sacrifice which they made, and readily made, in compliance with what they conceived to be their duty to their country. lie repeated, it was impossible for their Lordships adequately to appreciate their feelings, for none of them could understand what the strength of the bond of union was which bound together in 'affection, regard, and brotherhood, the Orange Society of Ireland.—( Loud cries of " Hear," from the Opposition.) That brotherhood might cease—that brotherhood probably would cease ; but cease ; but the first principle on which it was founded never could be extinguished.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) He trusted his Protestant brethren would bear the trials with which they. were threatened. Lord PLUNK ET began by observing that it was a great mistake to suppose that any person interested in the welfare of Ireland, or the welfare of the empire, could feel disposed -to act so mean a part as either to entertain or express any Sentiment of triumph at thehlissoluticu of the Society. It was no less mistake to imagine that th e di sso l ut i on was th e result of a trial of strength between Protestants and Res, a Catholics. —( Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") He con sidered the dissolution of Orange Lodges as the triumph, not of Roman Catholics over Protestants, but lie looked on it as the triumph of Protestants and Catholics, as well as of tho law itself, over an institution which had for its open and pro fessed object the subversion of the law.—(Cheers.) He had ever been, since the first institution of this association, a deter mined oppenent of it ; but never at any time, or upon any occasion, had he ever disparaged the motives cf the great pro portion of the honourable and respectable persons who be longed to it. If he could nut give the Orangemen the praise of wisdom and discretion in their proceedings, he most will ingly and readily subscribed to their sense of propriety and honour.-4 Hear, hear, hear.) He could not believe that such men could for a moment entertain so wild and frantic a scheme as the disturbance of the succession; but absolving them alto gether from such a suspicion, they could not be considered as relieved from the charge of allying themselves to an institu tion pernicious to the best interests of the country.—( Loud cries of " Hear.") The value, the whole value, in his eyes : of the dissolution of this Society, was the prospect it afforded of restoring harmony to Ireland.—(Cheers.) He might, per haps, be sanguine in his expectations--after the warmth of feeling exhibited by the Noble Lords opposite, lie was cer tainly not so sanguine as be had previously been : but he did still entertain a strong hope that the prospect of return ing tranquillity and happiness to Ireland was at length opened to their view. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl amongst those observations which might perhaps be better omitted in his address, had assumed that Protestantism in Ireland was com mensurate with Orangeism.• Ile begged their Lordships to look around them before they adopted such a conclusion, when if they did so they would see that there were Protestants, 9311 C of the most respectable persons in Ireland, men who stood the highest in rank amongst the inhabitants of the country, and the most established, in the opinion of Protestants, for their re linious sincerity and zeal, who were decided enemies to those , Orange associations.—(Cheers.) Nothing, therefore, could be further from the fact, that the Roman Catholic party alone was arrayed in hostility to these proceedings.—( Hear, hear.) Now as to the origin of this association. It took its rise in an opposition to the necessity which had become imperative, of governing Ireland, net for the purposes of up holding the ascendaincy of any class, but for the good of the_ whole people.—( Hear, hear.) From the first moment of the agitation of the question, the body oppesed itself to the measure of Catholic Emancipation. They might have been perfectly right. The Duke of CUMBERLAND :—( Hear, hear!) Lord PLUNKET—The Illustrious Duke might be per fectly right in his opinion of the itnpolicy of that measure. He was happy to base the good fortune of entirely going along with the Illustrious Duke in his statement of the view •taken by the Illustrious Duke of that question. So far from mis representing, he was glad to perceive that he had stated fairly, and be hoped respectfully—and without meaning to disparage the Illustrious Duke's motives, for he believed he was per fectly conscientious in the opinions which he entertained—the sentiments which the Illustrious Duke felt and expressed on that measure.—(Het.r, hear.) But the Illustrious Duke could not deny that the origin of the Society was that Roman Ca tholics should not be admitted to equal rights with their Pro testant fellow-subjects. The Association was formed on that principle—it had been continued on that principle—(Much cheering)—and at this moment (continued the Noble Illustrious Duke were the only thi ng necessary to bring Learned Lord), I am quite satisfied that if the assent of and about the such a consummation—if s uc h an e vent depended upon him, and could be effected by his wish, he could easily believe that he would most readily an d c h eer fully abolish all that has been attained, and ove r t urn th e whole fabric of which Catholic Emancipation formed the fox. t and is, entitledhold Now the Illustrious Duke was, but the House of his own opinions upon that subject ; himself, did not Lords, the House of Commons, and the King • na u tion.—(Much cheering. ) happ en the popular to abandon. to coincide w on a principle which the with the Illustrious Duke. say,.then, that this Orange Society was f o r med mindabsolute —( H e ar.) . I am lllustrious Duke (the Duke of Wellington) is not present ; for illustrious I may call hi m , with reference loth to his exploits in the field and his necessity of the tithes compelled say that an rank in the c ountry—for if he were here I should have his sanc tion of, and concurrence in, the declaration that the original principle on which this Society was founded, cannot be sus tained by and man who knows what is passing in the country, and reflects upon the consequences of blindly opposing the un conquerable determination of a people.— ( Hear, hear.) The Noble and EseaWd Lord therfproceeded to say, that the values of the resolutions of the House of Commons, and of the cles claration from the Throne, was that the people of Ireland should be free, and that the whole people should have equal civil privileges, i fact as well as in law. "My Lord (conti nued the Noble and Le arne d Lord), what I mean to say i*