The Sun. — London, England, 1809-02-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLAIVIENT. HOLSE OF PEERS, r4QNDAY, FEB. 27. In the Appeal, " Roche v. Morgel," • Mr. Fon blanque was heard for the Appellant, and Sir. Sa.. mile! Romilly for the Reipondent.—Further hearing on Friday'. Leave wus given to the Earl of Clancarty to attend a Committee of the House of Commons. A . private Bill was brought up from the Commons by .Mr.Lygan and other Members, and read a first time. -Mr..lrving, from the Custom-bouse, presented an. Account. of the Trade with Spain and,Portngal, *from the Ist of May 1807 and 1808 respe&ively, which was ordered to ha on thu table, and to be printed. IRISH DISTILLERIES. . . The Earl of DARN LEY expressed his anxiety to call the attention of their Lordships to a subjeat of great importance, , respe&ing which 'he had intended to lime made a motion, had he: seen some Noble !midi on the other side iu • their places. , He oh -60. t etl,b . y,the votes of the House of Commons, that thc.re way fl Bill in progress in that House, allowing the Irisiv Distißeries again to work, which he. thought would, if pasied into alaw, be produetive of the most. ruinous consequences, to the 13ritish Empire, and to, Irehtud in particular; he therefore gave thin notice of his intention to give it every possible opposition, if it Caine • up - , to their Lordship's House.—Adjourned till to-morrow. (this day).. • HOUSE OF COMMONS. bIoNDAY, FEB. 27. , The Scotch Bastardy Law Amendment :Bill was read the second time, and committed for to-mor row. • Lord PtthcY, Chairman of the Wexford : Eledtion Commitlre, reported at the Bar their final decision, that Abel Rani and.W. C. Alcock, Esqrs. were duly elect , Al and returned; end that the Petition against Abel Lim, Esq. was frivolous and vexatious but that against the return 'of Mr.. Alcock not so. A Person .from the Office of the Inspettor of Ex ',arts and Imports, presented an Account of the quatility of Wool imported into this country within certain period.—)rdered to lie on the table. Lord FoL.x.rroNg gave notice that he should to- MC) 1•0 VV: move for a call of the HOuse,On the Bth of )431...1). Sir B. Routta.x gave notice of a motion for Wed. resday, forleave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the laws .relating to. Bankrupts. The objeets, he said were nutuerous and important, and the ex planation at that moment wopld occupy more of the attention of the House than was customary, in giving mere notice of a motion. He should there tore postpone explaining the nature of the Bill until thi; day of Lis niotion. NAVAL. REVISION. WAIW presented several Reports of the Commissioners of Naval Revision. He said, the ist !sod 2d .Reports had been same time before the Houk:, and the eth was not yet ready: He : lnoved that these Reports be printed. Sir CHAELEB POLE was against the printing, 'be owe he thooghl it would be impossible to have them ruled in tune for 14e information of Members, veviolisly to the day for considering the Navy Es tunstes. On these Estimates, there were very con sidetabid exceedings over those of the last year,*More especially. in the Victualling department ; he thought, therefore, that the Reports should lie on the table,' preparatory to the discusson on those estimates. Mr. WARD admitted, that the exceedings were certainly ' important ; but that under the head ot Victualling, to which the Hon. Baronet particularly alluded, did not exceed 20,0001. or 30,0001. The Papers were ordered to be printed. . On the M,,tion of Mr. I. l. os.rea, the House re solved itself into a Committee on the Irish Bank Note Bill, anti went threugh the same.—Ordered to be fvpurted to-mellow. The Qatltion of the Ordnance Estimate was post potted to Friday. On the Molten of Mr. FosTea, the House re selved itielt . into a Committee of Supply. Mr. FOITEtt proceeded to move the remainder of the usual yearly grints. The first of; which was a sum of 26,3231. for Protestant Charter Schools.• • On the question being put— • Sir kuti Newl'okr desired to know, why, t h e three Repdrts 'Made to the Irish Government by the ILiarti ot Education, had not been laid on the table ot the House, previously to any motion for grants of this nature ; two of those Reports be knew were made a coosierable time since, the third :more re ; and he could conceive no just reason why l,ey were kept back, So A. WELLESLET.answered, that the Reports ';-I;iitt'itcl•to.by the Right,Hon. Baronet were certainly la d tilt scime, time before the Lord Lieutenant, who deemed it expedh:nt that the Board should have an ( Tportunity of extending still further its inquiries, ort.'er to obtain the fullest infOrmation below the cots should be laid before Parliament. Sir J..:Ne7.vroter stated, that there had long existed, libth the schools of Royal Fouudation, and others of a minor description, abuses of the grossest nature, under which the sums appropriated by the founders had sunk into' the pockets of individuals, whereby the objeelsef those Institutions were most flagrantly defeated. It surely could be neiiher neces sary nor justifiable that these abuses should bee suffer ed to continue until the whole system of education in Ireland should have undergone complete revision. several of these schools there had been a shame ful misapplication of the funds, .and partieularly in two schools, the one in- the Queen's County, and the other in the County of Westmeath, His objed was that 'Parliament should rescue those funds out of the hands of peculating; individtrfals, a,.d apply them t 4 their legitimate purposes; and in 'order thereto, he should feel it his duty to move, at an early day, for 'the Report to be laid on the table. ' Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY admitted :the abuses to exist, but thqught that before Parliament thould adopt, any vroceeding on the sobjed they should have the fullest information before theiyi, and upon the best consideration he could give the subjea, this was the Only cause why the Reports had not yet been jaid.before the House. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, he should move for them on Thursllay. The following sums were then votecll--. Charter Schools . . . fo the Linen and Hempen Nanufaiturets Salaries of the Lottery Office - - Printing, Stationery, Messengers, &c. for the ()dices of the Chief and Under Secretary - zt,900 kle, 3 2 3 ' 2, 46 Jo / 382, ARMY ESTIMATES. The SECRETARY at WAR t hen proceeded to move the Army 'Estimates, upen which - he stated, that se veral exceediugs wonld, necessarily accrue under dif ferent heads of estimates, upon comparison with those of the last year; part ef . Which arose from necessary oc currence of expenditure, as the increase of the public force, both in the Line and Militia, the Staff of Garri sons, and the Staffebroadi the increase of objets upon theGreentvithandKilinainhamHolpitals,thepensions to widows,theaddisionalDeputy Pay masters, and some increase of salary to the junior Clerks in the War Offices, with the necessary addition of some super numeraries, Occasioned by the pressure and increase 'of business in that department. Many of these ex ceedings again were Merely nominal, and not a real increase,: for they bad been uniformly paid before under the - head of Military Contingencies ; but in compliance with the recommendation of Chef Finance Committee, it was deemed right to bring every charge which was ascertainable under some ape , cifie head of .estimate'; and where the estimate of the preceding yeatt had fallen considerably short of the teal 'expenditure, U: was deemed right to make the estimate for the present at the real amount :which : experience' bad proved it to be. There was also another head of expends- • • cure, where the sum charged would greatly exceed the reality, namely, the clothing for the Local Miiitia. This estimate was tor four years, and therefore only one-fourth of the SUM was really chargeable tot he pre sent year,altliongh the w boleti:lust be advanced. But against theexpenceof t his corps there would be actin siderable saving trout that of the Volunteers, great numbers of wheni bed transferred their services to the Local, Militia. The Right Hon. Secretary, as he went on, specified the SeveriA •sums of exceeding, and said he was' ready to answer , any objections that might be Offered. ' Mr. MARTIN said, that upon the' military esti mate of the present year, so great an exceeding as 1,500,0001, over that of the la,t, when the burdens of she people were increased to such a pitch, - was a subject that called for ,the most minute andslatis faCtory explanation, In the office of Vaymaater- General, for instance, there was a charge for Deputy- Paymasters of 54,7711. exceeding by. 20,0001. the estimate for the last year. This surely called for some explanation, more especially as it was under stood that some of those persons. performed their official duties by deputy ; the Paymaster of: Gibral tar, for instance, who, he understood, never was seen there, but received hiti salary as a siuecure. Upon the charge of the office of Secretary at War, 54,84.81. there was an exceeding over the last year of 27,8481. ; on the head of foreign corps there was another cix• ceeding 'of 70,8004 and tinder other heads there was a sum of. 54,0001. consisting . entirely of new charges. The SECRETARY at W4Il said, he theught he had . already explained the several points to which Me Hen‘ Member now objetted, nankely, that the prin.- exceedings' on'tbose.several heads did not al.* from new charges, but old and established oues, brought into estimate, which had not before been presented to Parliament in that shape: Mr. LONG rose to explain the nature of the ap parent causes' of increased expeitee its the Office of Paymaster-General, whicki he • attributed in the chief degree, to' the' specification of sums in the' estimate undertheir proper heads,which had been pail, in all former years, ender other •and more general. 'head, The charge to Deputy'. Paymasters with troops abroad was always an item of .eipendittne every year„ • and regularly drawn for. There never was any Deputy- Paymaster employed, since he came to office, who did not do his duty personally, but the Paymaster of Gibraltar. He found that appointment so at his , accession to office, 'and had not created it. But as to the increase of Deputy Paymasters on foreign sta tions, the exigencies of the service absblutely required it. The Hon. Gentleman surely would not say it WaS unnecessar) to send Deputy Paymasters with thp army to Portug al, awl with those wider Sir John Moore and Sir D.ivid Baird. After a few • observations from Lord Archibald Hamilton and General Fitzpatrick, the Secretary at' War explained one item, of the increase in the ex penditure, to 'he owing to the abolition of tees in saute of the o ffi ces, and a consequent increa se of the salaries of the Clerks. _ Mr. WYNNII rose, to put some questions to the Right Hon. Secretary: He wished first to be in= formed respe6iing t►te Local .Militia, whether Go. verninent intended to relieve the parishes frotd the oppressive burden of the bounties, that they were now obliged to pay to those who volunteered into the Lo .cal Militia. He also wished toknuw, resPetting`the Volunteers, whether the difference arose between the June corps and the August corps. It was now six years since , the clothing had been given to the Volunteers, and he conceived it was now time to. give a further allowanm on this account. He , thought the. August corps ought now to be,allowed an Adjutant on permanent pay, as well 'as the June ones. He wished to know what diminution would now take place in the Field Officers attached to the Volunteers. Ho was convinced thatinspeding them six times a year would , not be more useful or better than once or twice. The SICUETAR at WAR said, that as to the first point, Goverment certainly did intend to relieve the parishes from the greatest part of the burdens, of which they complained, with respe& to the Local Militia. The other points had engaged the serious attention of his Majesty's Government; but he was not then prepared to say what was to be done.. Mr. MARTIN hoped that the Otdnance Estimates would not exceed the proportion of the Army Esti mates ; he took notice of a charge for Brigade Chap loins, which he believed was a thing not generally understood; as also of a sum of . 40,00,i1. for tele— graphs in Ireland, the atmosphere of which watt well known not to be fit for that species'ot commu nication, The SECRETARY at. WAR explained the meaning ef the institution of Brigade Chaplains. Foruplly eyery, regiment had its Chaplain, whose pay wa4 b t .q 4,, dd. per day, which •was not sufficient toinduCenny re spetable Clergyman to stay. with the regiment. The consequence ut this was, that the Chaplains got the. businesi done in the cheapest ivay they could, and the regirnats had seldom the benefit of proper per. sons I to perform public wctihip. About ten years ago, these Chaplains were allowed to ,retire upon their pay, and the businesS wak done by the paroc:iial clergy, of the place where the soldiers were quartered; but when the army went upon foreign service, it 'became necessary to bring. other Chaplains with them, who were called .Brigade Chaplains. It was round necessary to give 159. a day to induce re-. speCtable clergymen to undergo the 'fatigues and &niers of accompanying an expedition on foreign service. Sir A. Wswis LEY explained the reason of ereCt ing telegraphs in Ireland. They had at first con strueted signal posts on the west coasts of Ireland; but' they were not found to answer, and it was then resolved to have a telegraphic communication direly from Galway to Dublin through Athlone. From Athlone there was another line of telegraphs .to Limerick and Cork, so that the commbnication was now very rapid from the west of Ireland to the seat of •Government, and to his Majesty's ships in Cork 1, harbour. The'excess.of 39,0001. in the expence of the Commissariat department of Ireland was cipally owing to the shoes which they orovided for the army in Spain. Mr. M. FITZGERALD said, that he could not avoid making a few obiervatiops on that item of the esti mate respeeting foreign corps. He understood that' the Island of Capri lied been fortifiedin such a man-, ner as to be considered impregnable, and that the de fence of it was principally entrusted to one of those foreign corps, the Royal Regiment of Malta. A very small French force attacked it, and this foreign corps ran away, and let the French take the island. He saw this Royal Regiment of Malta set down at!94o men; and'he also saw 2 Royal Sicilian Regt. 'of t 12 . 7 men. .He' believed the charaeler of did Sicilian people was not exa&ly that which could be wished for recruit ing our army. Mr. WiLaearoeca expressed surprise at the sys tem, which still prevailed about Army Chaplains. As for the description of persons who were Chaplains about ten years ago; he had an instinaive feeling, which made him wish to get rid of thern.. He wish ed however, that our army should have the benefit of religion tree fronithe abuses of the former institution. If soldiers .went to 'the 'parochial church, they often found that there was no accommodation for them ; and as to saying prayers for them at a different hour it was depriving the parish church of what was most interesting in public worship, when all ranks and degrees assembled together, to worship their com mon father and benetador. He thought it• was of the utmost importance, that armies going on foreign service., should have proper clergymen to administer ' the consolations of religion to the wounded and the 'dying : He thought there ought also to be sonic re ligiousinstrtict ion and consolation for the many black regimentS in his Majesty's service in the e West Indies.. • . • The SECRETARY at WAR repeated, that consider able improvements had already taken place in thp appointment of Chaplains, and still further improve ments were intended:, As to the conduct of the Re, giment of Maltit at. Capri, he had not information enough on the subject to enable him at present to give an opinion. Mr. W. SmITII said,'thete was a subjeet I.vhich.he •had lung wisheti for an opportunity Au allude to, and which he did not wish to make any regular motion about. As he coniidered it connected with our military means, he should lake the present op portunity of stating it. The sicily had 'Jung been occupied by our troops, was dependent upon them for its defence. Nix though he was aversugenerallv to the principi , l 4.1 intcvfering in the affairs of *another Government, yet, when we took upon us to defend Sicily against alfattacks, we would . be justified in seeing thut the Government of that country took proper measures for their own defence. The 'accounts of all travelleri for the last century coincided in stating that the Sicilians 'were by no means attached to the Neapolitan Government, which 'was most intolerably oppressive.. He had some conversation with Sir John .Madre before be went to that island, and it was the opinion of that gallant Officer that the island was iusome danger on that ac count'. Another gallant Officer (Sir J. Stuart) who was a distant relation of his, had exprei , ed to him the same idea. Now, he thought we could do our bu sinesi' more efficaCiously with a smaller body of Inert, if we would but suggest to the Government of SiCily, the necessity of adopting such measures as would sectre the.afreCtions of the inhabitants. Flawing thrown out this idea, for the consideration of his Majesty's Ministers, he did not mean to press it further, or to make any motion to the House upon U. Mr. BRAND could not conceive the reason of the estimate being so high tor the Volunteers, when it was considered that 160,000 out of 240,000 had vo. lunteered tor the Local TheSRCRITARY AT WAR expla i ne d that the esti mate includdd the Volunteers of Ireland. The following sums were then voted for the fol. lowiug purpo.set. Land Forces (including various miscellane ous services) - . . ,C 7,02,371 16 s t Regiments in the East Indies . 666,373 , 5 e 'lro:ips and Companies forrecruiting ditto 29,3 2 10 0 Embodied Militia' . - - 344647 1 9 5 S tan' and Garrisons .. ~.. - - 449 ,6 49 7 9 Full I'4 to Supernumerary %Juicers ... 31,796 1 3 Public Departments - • - - 3 57,7 11 13 3 Half.pay and Military Allowances - 233,5611 5 a lu.Pensioners of Chelsea and . Kilmainharn , • .. -- . , , i iospitais . . . .. . 67043 14 tt 'Out.Pensioners of ditto .. - - 4 2 5, 26 9 I 2 w idowe Pensions . . 440137 11 . $ Volunteer Corps . . t,000,8z0 o 0 Local Militia - , - 10,4.8..1 0 o Foreign Corps •.. . 933, 6 54 6 to Royal Military College . - 16,975 1 7 4 Royal Military Asylum - • 2 3,35 0 . a Allowances to Retired and Officiating Chaplains 24,971 12 11 hleclicine and Hospital Expenees - 115,024 s• g ' 4 Compassionate List . - . 14,300 o o Barrack Department (Ireland ) . 479, 8 17 10 11 COVIIIIIii6AfiaI Department (Ireland) . 2 .35,5 08 1 4 2 NAVY. ISTI tvIATES. Mr. WARD rose to move the Navy Estimates. Sir C. Pout thought that the Navy ,Estimates should be delayed until the House had time to con sider the Reports of the Naval Commissioners, upon which thote Esiiinates were founded, The fourth Report was, as he had understocd, only laid' upon the table of the House that day. Mr. WARD had no objection to put off the esti mates for a certain time, in order to give Gentlemen tiine'to read the Reports; he must, however, deny that these CSTiEllatef4 were altogether fotmed from these Reports. The i , arions- items of the Navy ,t -mates had be . en before the House a lung time, and ~I i 4 i~ ••••.............. Gentlemen could see that they wero only the own- mon and ordinary charges., - Lord H. PSTTY thought, thißif th'q Fourth Re port, which nad been laid upon the Table thatid,iy, contained those reasons which induced the Lord of the Admiralty to present those estimates, the House should have - time to examine that report, and judge of those reasons: • Mr. WHITBREAD thought it strange,' that reports, stated to be made in the year iBO7, should not be : laid on the Tablee of that House till 1809. Mr. WELLBSLRY PoLa said, that it was the'ge neral custom, 'when a report was made, to send it to the Board to which it related, in order to regulate its condua. They were afterwards got back from those boards to be copied, and as those reports were many and voluminous, the copying them necessarily took up a great deal of time. He was free to admit, , that he had not conceived that it would be material to have the report sooner.on the Table. Tha tourt4 report had been a&ed on for some' time, had beet% Printed by the. Navy Board, and was pretty generate ly circulated, He confessed' he had waited till all the reports were copied, instead of Taylaying them on the table one by one. Mr.-WARD said, that of the i t , 500,0001. which the 'estimates of the present year exceeded , tb4t of the last year, 1,275,0001. was for transports. , MK WHITBREAD thought 'the Hon. Gentleman) ought to lave presented the 'RepOils of th° 1711 '" 1 CommilOouers one by one as they came out, and not, have waited till they were colleaed in large folio vo lumes, which the House bad not time to take consideration. Mr. WILBERFORCR, thought, that the ought to have been laid on the table the first (13Y the Session, but he did not think that.there,should be any longer delay in bringing `forWard the MO .Eatimates than till next, Friday. Sir C. Po La said; that he certainly did not di sa r ve pro of that pelt of the increase of the expen diture . which proceeded from giving an augmentanon to the' salaries of the Clerks in the. Admiralty. reports thought, however, that the Board of Admiralty had been guilty of great extravagance, and that there must be consi. siderable irregukritiesin paying . the, different ships. The crew of a 64 bad been seen parading about the streets of the metropolis; and harl•gonedown y a body to the Admiralty to demand their pay. He disapproved of. the appointment of. .the additional Commissioners of the Navy, and feared that those apPointinents were obtained through ptivate in fluence, and that it was not for •the good of the .ter v ice. Mr. W. Pout said, that as to appointme nts of the persons who were to be the Naval Commission ers, Lord Mulgrave had made it from a list had 'been returned to him' by . the Naval.Lorcls, .° 1 those Captains that were most fit .to be Colvil sinners in the Navy, and that from that I st tit; a 1 pointment was offered to each according to his sent" ority. Ai to the crew of tlie Saturn, the real ,tors was' this :--What:--What ship' had been a long time 4 ' li and on her return to this country, the wen got trave .o u of absence front their Captain. It was a ie gulatt, introduced by the present Adam alty , tha t when a ship returned front having long abroad ona torriAn station, .the men were to receive ininiedk a tely a certain proportion of. their pay; i nt o ° have leave (if their Captain permitted them) go and see ji their friends. .f Now. the Saturn happened not to Sidi dire& Within the order, for teceiving a certain proportion of pay. The 'men, howev( r, g. teave of absence, ond finding money, they waited at the Admiralty, and respeBful ly asked for a part of their pay. They were o rdered themselves in London without which they immediately did, and by. the to return and report themselves, to their CaPta i n' e o rders the Admiralty they •reeeived that proportion pay, and got farther leave of absence to see the. :,, r , friends. As to the Vi*tualling Board, the buses' that department had been so gross; that it was abso lutely necessary to make some changes. He would instance one case, where a man charged 4000 ton or casks more .than existed, and yet his,3CCOOta were passed as perfetily regular. The duties of the Vied' tootling Board had been increased twelvefold Alto 1798. , He meant nothing disrespe&ful of those disc very respectable men missed ; they had long been in the service, end wee of their ; but boi% Mr. ,Marsh and M r. Budge were very infirm, and desirous of retiring; Lord Mulgrave called on th e M em b ers of the Boo" for their opinion, and on their suggestion, he .:Aus e Mr. Browne and Mr. Hobbin, the former of who m bad been Secretary io Lord Keith, and the latter S e " . vretary to Lord Howe. When Lord Molgrave cargo: to the Admiralty, it had been previouslydetermia ce that Mr. Harrison'was to retire from the public tier vice oh 6001, a year, being aaaths of his salary, "n" his place he gave to Colonel - Walsh, who had 1e0g,,• been an Officer the publiOseryiee, was a marl °` business,•and a great part of his:business was to Pr° - vide`necessaries for the army. , Mr. WELLESLBY POLE entered into a defence of Lord . Mulgre4e, as to the appointment wh i c h baLl been alluded to, and insisted, that the' estiiii:ite` o , f the "Navy did not *depend oil the •4.th. which so much 'stress had been laid by itle . o ° "%"; able Baronet, and assured the .Commitlee , * whenever the subjea came before them, be w"" be glad to meet the HonOurable Baronet or anY othera Member on every point which. th e y' entbrace+;L was glad, however, that hi s H o n. Friend .(.Mr. Ward) had . agreed to posl i on e the consideration 01 them tilt Friday. The CHAIRMAN informed ibe Honourable Gen . . tletnen that there was no question befOre the Corn" mittee. A conversation, however, of. some +length tn ° „. place, in the course o f w hi c h Mr. it WAtio acc° 4 Sir C. Pocit of not speaking out ,in a manly vc a s q but that he preferred dealing in insinuatioits• He ha felled fault with some appoitunients which had ita fact originated in the recommendation of Lord Vincent, who had ever seemed to be that Hon. ronet's mcirius Apolli) in all naval regulations. Sir C. POLE said, .he had never: maitivated 4 1) thing, but on alt occasions spoken out..openly-...; mentioned every name he was. acquainted with ; ana where he did nut -knew names, had. me ntiened 0 1 . Were relations. particularly Mr. Stewai t's a pp oint meth. " 0 . Mr. W. PoLa said, he had .forgot .Meution tit "1 6 of bit . . Stewart, who had , been.very higulY re 0 ,„ commended to _Lord Mulgrave,.and who was.blig ed to he; though a -young mail A every' way well (I' l ' lifted for alive business.