The Sun. — London, England, 1808-06-16 00:00:00

it 11, ' li s s 4 isi ":i fARLIANitiIt. • ROUSE OF PEERS. • . WEDNESDAY, JUNE 15. • ROXBURGH APPEAL. Mr. Clarke Was heard in reply on the ketieial lterests of the Appellants • and after a 164n:observa tions as to the future iiicide of proceeding,.....the fur ther hearing was ordered for Friday next. The Irish Malt Duty, the Dublin Police, and the Hari ShoOting Bills, were brought up from the commons, and read a first time. IRISH CATHOLICS. . Lord GRENVILLE ave notice that he should te knoteciwpritient.ri Pet iirionto the House, on the part itif certain Irish Catholic Merchants, &e. complain ing of being excluded from being eligible as Direc tors or Governors of the Bank of Ireland, on ac' count of thei r ' religious tenets.' The Noble Baron would also have , to move that it be referred-to the Judges, whether in their interpretation of the Bill of 17g3, the Catholics were excluded from that .privi 7 lwe or not. Should their decision be. favourable to the 3 claims of the Catholics, then he should move a declaratory clause to that . effect in the Irish Bank Bill, which was shortly to corny, under their Lord . Ships' consideration ; if not, he should then move a dause as an amendment,. to make them eligible to Such situations. - • LOCAL MILITIA. The Order of the D I 'was then read for the second reading of the Local Militia Bill, for the discussion of which 'their Lordships had been summoned ; bttt Ao olljeaictix was made at diet Stage of the busineis. The Bill was read a second time,' siid ordered to be committed to-morrow, when the discussion of the kneasure is expeded to take place. The House next proceeded to forward the Bills oil the table. On second reading of the Paddington Coal Bill, a short conver s ation arose between Lor4'§Vf• folk, th e Lo r d Ch ance ll or , and Lord Spencer, re-• speeting the consequences arising'from the inequality of the duties on coals coming by sea from Newcastle, and by internal Navigation to PaddingtOir. Lord Sutlolk contended, that the metropolis trifen be supplied with that very necessary commodity - at. a lower rate, if the'duty on the Paddington Cal Coal was diminished. He was of opinion that Coals should be allowed to be brought to the metropolis from both these quarters in equal quantities, and up -04 equal terms. , . The 'LORD CHANCELLOR wished the Noble Earl would endeaVour• to equalize the duties on both de acrlptions of coals. He could,assure the Noble Earl that by so doing he would, do a great service to his ° mit/Yraen of Newcastle, but he feared the were great obstacles in the way, and the Noble Lord would no doubt r:-collect what a fruitful nursery for rkur navy the coasting trade bad always been acknow ledged and found. • • • Lord Sisito sit, concurred in opinion with the No ble and Learned Lord. , . , . • Thil Dili was thou ordered to be committed to htorrois. ihe second reading of the Land BeVenue Bill, Lord Sureot.sc also adverted to tlso. protesting carte With which the growth of timber should be cherish lid and encouraged in this country. Tito second reading of the Pauper Lunatic Bill having taken plaice, 14ord Sufb•otat lamented that the operation of the Bill was not extended to Scotland, and related a me lancholy case of an officer belonging to his own re timent, who, for want of .such an Institution or Acylum in Scotland, had been reduced' to the . most tePlorable extremities of distress. • Lord SPENCER ObStrvitti, that the present Bill *list') framed ) as utterly to prevent its extension to Scotland. Lori SeyroLx, after again expressing his wish to trend the operation of the Bill, thought proper. here to observe ; that his sentiments respettmg the Droits of the Admiralty had been incorreAtly stated.. He *lever intended to assert that the Droits of the Ad .cuiralty belonged to the people. All that he meant eo comelld wax, that as the Droits of the Admiralty were known-to .amotint to no less a suns *than two inillions, or, at least, a million and a half, the peo ple. had aright know whatl a rg e a sum to to, uses so uf 6 -loney was alibied. • T .,„ ll ;'.Uill was ttien ordered to - be committed. _,...vmessage from the Commons brought up Copies ,°, l the Re.-",,rts'of the Committee of tat House on the Bill for' Suspending the Distillery of Spirits from To, which, on the motion of Lord Lauderdale, were'ordered to be printed.—Adjourned. , • HOUSE OF COMMONS. WEDNESDAY, JUNE • the Redeemed Stock Bill, the Irish Loan Bill; the Irish Permits ,1 rt the West India Courils , -• 41 " e r"' Bill, the Barrack Commissioners Bill, the ',:;rnerican Trade Bill, and Mr. M'Clintoch's Bill, were rwtl a third time and passed ; also the Exche quer Bills Bill, and the Smuggling Prevention Bill. n yrz tc r -Rosa obtained leave to bring 111'11 Bill fur per #l 141 g the removal of goods warehoused . 10 Len ..ol, -4 to the outports, for exportation. f House in Committee, came to a Resolution or porting certain Duties in place of those alteacly Plid On painted silks. I‘ll ' . C 3 'reY, from the British Museutn, presented 'Cre o iulatiu t is cif admission to see the Collection of mat AU Y • StitUtiOn. The Sugar Bill was rend a second time, 11 : 1 4 order e d to h e commit t e d on Friday. Also the ( u tree Bills, whi c h were committed for to-morrow ,. the cape of Good Hope Trade Bill, the Brazil Post a;"iicl the Pri2e Captures Bill. the • Ale Licence Bill went throuh a Committee, I tteport to be received to-morro w; also the Spi. ,iteguiaion 611 . 4 Nies:sage from :the Lords declared their Lord assent to the Malt Duty Collettion Bill, the lei (-) tße'ri Du Bill, the . Copper Duty Bill, the p o i t " r ti iskier yi Bill, the Sugar and Coffee lin -41totti and Corn Exportationßill. Air ce ll ' • n •-.4ittlititz, wished to present a Petition from and ien Freeholders of the Kint , 's county, Trustees ruPtietors of the Grand Canal in Ireland; pray , r Pllblic aid, • f b r e , e r a I M4Tritaws offered a similar Petition county of Tipperary ; but neither Petition be 'a rec ommended by his Majesty, they could.no t . I , ,i lo ce:vccl nor considered. PARNZI„,f, wished to Isoo7/ whether it:*as ,• . , Infinileci by 'the hir/ettthlOt to propose r.ny iuiu for the extension or iulund navigation in irc- land. Sir A. WELLFSLEY said it was intended to receive plans for the 'extension of inland navigation ; and to aid the execution of those plans as ter as the suni in the Beek for the uses of it r navigation would al low, lt. would be to be 'edtAidered after the expen ' diture of the fund on hand; whether atty application should be made to Parliamentler further aid. On the motion of the,CRANCELLOX of the Ex- CUEQUER, it was ordered that the Copies of the Re ports of the Committee on the Distillation from Su gar should be sent to the Lords, by Mr. We.drots ; in compliance with their- Lordships' message ofyes , terday. • Mr. Lorin eave notice, he would move io-Morrow foe leave to bring in a BUT to extend the powers of the Commissioners for improving the Approaches to Westminster Hall aild both Housos,ot 'Parliament. Sir SAM. liots4lLLy"tuoved the Order of the Day forgoing into a Committee on the Privately Stealing Bill. Mr. BURTON argued against the Bill : he doubted whether the evils now imputed to the criminal law of Great Britain really existed ; and was persuaded much greater mischiefs would arise thim the great alteration of the principle on which that lavi had rested for some,centuries. At all events, he thought the preamble ought to be expunged.: he was certain, from the.result of his judicial experience (as one of the Justices of Chester), that the offences of young criminals could not be repressed without the great est severity, short of death. Mr. Heusi:Kr, of Kerry, also objeeled to the preamble. It being the object to prevent rather than to punish crimes, laws were framed naturally with greater severity than attended their execution. He disapproved of so material an alteration in the prin ciples of the Criminal code, and wished at least the consideration of the matter should be deferred to another session. Sir A. PIOOT contended, that . the present extent of crimidal punishments did net. prevent crimes. The crime of picking pockets, which the law against pri vately stealing was prat:Wady intended to prevent, was never more frequent than at present. He thought the Bill should go into a Committee, and hoped it would collie out Of that Committee in a state tit to pass the House. The SOLICITOR GRNRRAL, if his Learned Friend wished to press the Bill in this Session, had no CU leaion to its passing through a committee, in order to correa it as far as passible. But he would intreat the House to' pause before it would pass finally a measure ivadamentally subversive of the best critni nal code ever known. Mr. C. WYNNE defended the Bill. There ,was scarcely au instance within this century in which the penalty of death had been carried into execu tion in the case in which it was here proposed to repeal it. • Mr. G. Poesowev approved of the principle on which his Hon. and Learned Friend endeavoured to amend the criminal law ; and thought the best mode. of improvement was to apply the amendment to each particular in Mr. LrecESTER contended, the law could never provide satistadorily for a variety ot cases, which must be decided by circumstances, whether the atfeace should not be punished wish severity. It was only by the discretion of the Judge that such case t• could be regulated; he therefore disapproved of the'prin ciple of the Bill. Sir R, MIUMNIc asserted there were pbundant precedents for altering •the law as circumstances re quired; and supported elle Bill. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY did hope that this Bill would pass in the present Session. He did think, that the preamble of the Bill ought to be: retained. It contained the reasons ott whicii rte hrousht ill tie Bill, and on which he hoped it would ;pass.' But if Gentlemen thought differently from' him, he would give tip the preamble, and be content to substitute. the 'common preamble, " WhereasA is eximedient." The present extreme rigour of the law shucked the humanity of Prosecutors, 'of Juries; of Judges, and - led them to compromise the law and the utfence, rather than go to the extent of inflicting capital puhishment where it was severe heyoud:alt propor tion to the crime. The frequent impunity vacourag -ed offenders to repeat their climes:and if, assn' a multitude of escapes, they at length sutired, they. attributed the misfortune to accident or want of dexterity, rather than to justice and the rigour and vigilance of _the :law.. cited Mr. Justice Blackstone's .ReMarks. to .prove, that the lenity ot Judges and Juries, from the necessity of tieing some ' thing to countered' the extreme rigour of toe law,, 'encouraged offenders to go on. The Legislature, in suffering the excessive penalties that required this eva4ion io temain, was an accomplice -to the en couragement given to criminality. It was lament able that when any person proposed to render the law more mild, the jealousy of so many persons was excited; and that, when tt wus proposed to add to its severity, no complaint was made. 'A Bill had.recently passed adding nine new eapharfelonies, to the former catalogue. To this Bill nobody ob jected, though, lie would maintain, that an increase of severity was as great aim innovatrue as a repeal of severity to the saute extent. He also adverted to the Indi&ment Bill lately passed,- as an iunovation of much greater magnitude than the present Bill. He adverted to the Committee appointed twenty years ago, of which Mr. Fox was a member, to in quire what criminal punishments ought to be re pealed. They reported 'six' Statues. The Bill of repeal passed the House, but Was lost in the Lords by the prorogation ot Parliament, though the first authorities in that House agreed to repeal five of the . six Ads reported. He altowed that a remedy was found in explaining the value of money, under time statute of Elizabeth, according to the relative value ofsoods at that time and at present. But this remedy was not of a satisfiolory kind. It was merely. discretionary, and the exercise of that dis cretion was not always t regulated by the best rea sons. He knew a case, and it was well known, in Which a Judge of very respeftable chara&er . direded t he Jury to find a stolen key of the full capital value,. because it appeared to be stolen with a view to cam-, m it a theft. Froth all these reasons, be ,hoped the House would nut go into -the Committee, but -ultimatel,t` pass the Bin. • The SOLICTTOR-GEWERAL explained. The _House then went into a Committee on time Bill. . • The SeLICITOU-GlitiMIAL, after a variety of Ai . - servations, feeding to ahem/ the impropriety of de= Glaring a principle, and then of leav,ing many of the laws ditectly contradi ct ing that principle, proportl a dat.l,e, staling, that " Whereas the Act of 'Elizabeth had nut been Annul etletiii•e for the. prevention of the crimes therein enumerated, it was therefore ex pedient that so ninth of ,the said•A(lt should be re pealed; and that whereas it might have a bebefrcial tendency to make the. punishment fur larceny front the person more severe than for simple larceny; that it be enacted that any pe: son who took any . proper ty twin the penon of an . individual, privily or with out fOrce, or .wrio sholld be aiding and abetting therein,. should be liable to b.j trenspo...ted for life, or for seven years at the discretion of the Jude, or to be kept to hard labour,. lit. a gaol or a libuse of correction, for any term not exceedioz three years;" The clause having been brought up, a short dis cussion ensued, in which Mr. WYNDHAM and Mr. BUXTON supported_ the clause, and Mr. RORNIIR and Mr. J. ABERCROMBIE defended the original Bill. In the course of this discu;sion Mr. Abererombie gave notice, that early in the next Session he should move for the appointment of a Committee to exa mine the stale.ot' Botany Bay, and to ascertain, whe ther any praMical benefit had been 'derived from the establish nieu t of that Colony.' The CHAIRMAN intimating, that as the clause proposed by the Solicitor-General had no intniediate relevancy to the Bill before the . Committee, it be ,camoneceSsary that he should be instructed by the House before h* could .ii_gree to its introdildinu after a tow Words front Sir S. Romilly and Sir C. Bun bury, the HoUse was. resumed; Mr. Wltrion.re pcirted progress, and • was ' instru&ed to receive the " clause. The Bill was' then re-colurnittvd, and the clause added to it ; t r.l the House having resuined, the Report was received, and ordered to be taken into further consideration cia Wedlle4ly nett, and the. Bill,was ordered to be printed: Mr. SHERIDAN then rose, and spoke to the, fol lowing etiett :—" Mr. Speaker.--However I may regret that the proposition which I bad the honour of giving notice that it was my intention to bring fot'ward.this evening, has been postponed until this late hour,. and that the attention of the House must be considerably uxhatlSted by:tht: discugsion which has just terminated, yet, I still think it tight to submit to their consideration the important subje which was the object of that notice. rcannot con-. ceal that a kind.ot negotiation has been carrying On bet ween :my Right Honourable 'Friend opposite and myself, in the course, of which, my Right Hon. Friend expressed his wish that I would put off my motion for this evening, because the distingished persons kith() have lately come over to England to represent to the British Government the state and disposition of ,their native country, are at this very moment partaking of the hospitalities of his mansion. Sir, 1 allow that this was a strong reason on the part of my RiJ,tlion. Friend for dein.* a ipostponez, nmit of this.. business ; for I bvii ot %OMNI 'Hy light Hon. Filen:l*-s public spirit and enthusiasm, that he has no. very . great inc li nation to lose a goOd dinner--(a - But as inyi Hight Hon, Friend has denwhekt -a very able G4lcri,ll "(the Setketary of Slate for Ireland) to •c:present hint at his. house, I feel leSs reludant at thus intruding nn his patience, and shalt therefere proceed, only xPrest4i hope, that that gallaut Baronet 'way soon be detached on a more seriOus service ; that he may aeon be sent into Spain to rtTresent in that country, theenthosiesm of England ie her cause. In the first Mane, Sir, I wish to corred an' idea which has g auroa3, that 1 en• tcrtained the I oily, tho preseileeion, mere, and the bad taste, of iteending to teach his Majesty's Nlinistet's hew to' coneuct themselves in the existing' circumstances. All I desire, Sir, is to win the attention of the !louse to the present situa tion. of Spain. Having, communicated the•tenor of my motion on a limner evening to my Right Hoe. •Friend opposite, end my intention 'nut biloug been . disapproved by toy Right Hon. Friend , I o.en I was surprised to find that his Bight i ion. and Learned Colleague imagined that my atietent would tend to embarrass his Majesty's Government. After the content:vie:l6olv to which I liayeeilluded,-1 ex.peeled that he would give ine credit for havine a no• such .üb jeet in view._ On the ether hand t experienced something like rebuke from my Honourable Friend 'near me (Mr. Whitbread), who seemed- to think that I was going to bring ferwerd a motion which AVIV , to save Administration freei all respousibilityon the stable* Now really, sie, a most uttfor tunate.outset on my part. I meant to do neither the One thing nor the Other. And here I must say,, that although no man living more highly respeeti the pne litical probity and abilny of my lion. Frietel, as well as the estimable qualities of In; private chatader, :yet when he.gets . .up to rebuke toe for doing• that which appears to me to be my . duty, I.am free to coufeise whi:e I applaud Ins judgment-;-his tinder-. standing.--the deliberation kith tett he decides on questions of importauee—that if: there be any one poi n t in hi charatier on which I shook not be disposed to dwell with the greatest siiteea lien, it would be his deference to the opinions of others, or his doubt with rope& to his own. lam placed, Sir, in this dilenuna—that while my Hon. Friend accuses me of a disposition to cote Administration, the Right Hon. aud. Learned Getelernan opposite suspects me of an intention to du it all the teisehief in my 'power. Sir, I may be wrong . —l am tar Item Wishing Ministers to embark in any rash and ro mantic enterprise in favoor of Spain; but, Sir, if the enthusiasm and animation which now 'exist in a part of pain, should spread over the whole of that country, I am convinced that since the fast burst. of the French Revolution, there never existed so happy an opportunity, and occasion for Great Bri tain to strike a bold stroke for the rescue of the world. But, Sir, it is said, " . ifyou do I)ot.clist'rtiit the Administration, why discUss this s&- eft In Par liambnt 1" Sir,. I will tell you why. lam diapoied to trust Administratioo. But I wish to demand two things:'. I wish first to declare, that, in my opinion,. we must not deal in driblets ; we must do Much or nothing. Why 'do I make this declaration ? Because no Cabinet which has hitherto existed in this country—not evereexceptine - that with which I had the lemony of- be ittg‘ connected—has pursued simply and plainly one clear and distit):l objet. In mead at striking at the eore . of the evil, the nistrations of this Contery have htthcrio contented themselves with nibbltng ..t the ritel. Im tlis cen sure, I otust not include an lionuumble Friend near Me, nor Mr. &rite ; they wouLl have Orelr 'seeded direaly and coMpleteiv to the objett wliic they had in. view, o they mad not have acIP vancca to it a st,ep.,..4pt with these exceptions tho Miniters of England ha l ve pursued a petty po liey they •halm gnne„ a!Doe , filching sugar i,lands; and negletting all that Witi dignified and all that was consonant to the truly understood in:Crests of their- country. j r wish therefore, Sir, to IFt Spain know, that the eondeta which we have pursued 'we will nut persevere in; but that we are solved fairly a n d f o lly to stan d up fur the salvation of Europe. The_ next demand I have to make, Is, that if a co-operatinn with Silvio be expedient, it should be an effeanal'co-operation. •I repeat, that I am far from prompting his Majesty's Government to engage in any rash romantic enterprise . ; but, Sir, it titian ascertaining the state of the popular Mind iti Spain; tliey tilki it is warmed by a patriotic and en 7 thusiaAtlC ardour, then" Sir, ail I ask is, that that feeling should be -mu here with corresponding etrergy and enthusiasm. Buonaparte has hi!herto run afl Ost vicioriousi 'tato: Hitherto he has had td contend against Princes without dignity, and Mkni- stets without wisdom: lie has fought tries in whiCh the people were inilitterent as to Ns success; he has yet tolearn What it is to tight againit a country in which the peOple are animated with one spit it to trOst•hiru. So far, Sir, horn bringing forward a Motionpretuaturely to embarrass his Ma jesty's Government, I iulemoly declare, that„ if t he oppOriunity to .which I have alluded, ot a vigour on; interference on the ,pert of England, should arise, the present Administration shall have from me= as cordial and as sincere support as if the man whom I most loved were restored to lite and power ? Is this a vain discussion ? Let th , lso 141;6 think so look at the pre4ent btate Will not the animation of the Spanish mind t.A: excitcti by the knowledge thaPtheircause is evotHetl, not by Ministers alooe, but by the Parliament, and the People of England ? If there be it dish position in pain' to resent the insults and injuries, - too enoimous to be des,cribed by language, whtcht they. have endurod froin the tyrant of the earth, will not that disposition be, roused to the most sublime -- exertion, by the assurance 'that . their etfots will be cordially aided by a great and powerful Nation Sir, I think this a most important crisis. Never, was any thing so brave, so generous, so noble, as the condai of the Asturians. They have mignani mously avowed their hostility to Pr;tice—they—hava declared war against 13nonliarte—they, have no re , treat--they are resolved io conquer, or to perish in the grave of the honour lind the independence of their country. It is that the British Uovernment . may advance to their assistance with a firmer s•vp, Ind with a bolder ITii.tris; that I have been anxious io atibrd this opportnnity, to the ,Britisti Parliinneut of expressing the fee'ling's - ‘Viiich they entertain on the occasion. I move, Sir, That an littunble 'Address • be presented to his 'Majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to dire& that there be laid belbre thia House, Copies of such Proclamations as have been received by his Majesty's Secretary of State-tor Foreign Affairs, and which have bectuissued since the arrival of the French Ar» my at \htdrid; whether by the Span ish Govern- merit, the French Commander in Chief, or by Pt7r.s. sons xince cluituiiig to att on behalf of the Spanish Nation." 'Mr. Secretary CANNIZaG replied nearly as follows: Mr. Speaker—l am disposed to give every credit to my Right Hon. Friend for his motives in agitating this bubje.el, and I can assure him, that he is very - Much mistaken ifs be imagines that it was intended to check or rebuke him, by any thing that was said on a recent evening from this side of the House. At that time, although l bats in possession of my Right Hon. Friend's Communication, my Right Hon. Friend near me was not hp. Sir, I could very easily show . my Right Hood". Friend, that it is . im possible to produce the. Papers for which he has moved ; some, because they have not reached his Majesty Gevernment in an authenticated form; °fliers, because they are tot accurately described io the motion ; and all, because, if we were in posses:. siott of information winch they contain, it would 'be highly improvident in us at. the present moment, tci connotthicate that information to the world. While I suite this, however, Sir, I hope my Right - lion. Friend' will not misunderstand me so much as to suppose that I impute to him any blame for this proceeding,: or that I tuld'ervalne the pledge which he has given us of his sup pert in any plan of salve operations which it ,may be deemed advisable to adopt with respect, to Spain ; the more especially when it is considered, that iii that pledge may he implied the support of those persons . with whom my Right Hon. Friend is accatorned to .rut in Parliament, and of whose body be is so eminent and distinguished a Member. Sir, I should have been. far from charging my Right Hon. Fricod 'with blame, even had he gone so tar a# to chalk oat to Lie Mitjesty's Ministers the line of cominat that in his opinion, it would be expedient for them to pur. sue. From this be has abstained.. Indisposed as I should have been to censure my Right Honourable Friend, had be proceeded to that extent, I =mot but lePl that bus speech,' moderate as it has,been, calls fur such a general disclosure of the sentiments of his Majesty's Ministers as may be made without hazard, without a dtshoneurable ,compromise, and without exciting expectations which may never be realiSed. It is therefore, Sir, I declare to the House and to the Country, that his Majesty's Ministers see with as deep and lively an interest as my Right Hun. Friend, the noble struggle. sv,ktictLa part ot the spa 'Usti Nation is now making to resist the nuexampled atrocity of France, 'and to preserve the independ ence of their Country; and that there -exists the strongest disposition on the part of the British Go vernment to afford every practicable aid in a eontest so anagminitnous. In endeavouring to afford th is Sir, it will never occur to us to consider thai a state of war exists between Spain and Great firitoin.- : Wp Shel proceed upon the principle, that tion of Europe that starts up with a deternfination to oppose a Power which, s bother prote4singio- Sidious p.:aCe or declaring open war, is the common enemy wt nations, whatever may be tha existing pOliticaltrvhtions of that !kitten with Grcaa. Britain, becomes instantly oar essentiat In, that evail; his Ma . Hty's Minister- will Wave thre , : , objects irL view. Thu ,first, to direataheawited ctibriS of the tiro countries against the,cpinnion foe; the second, to (fired thos , e efforts in a way which 'shall be most brigticial tr, i new ; the third, to ducat thettl