The Sun. — London, England, 1838-05-30 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF` THE PUBLIC JOURNALS produce p rocee di ngs i n t h e House of Commons last night will common a very great . sensat i on t h roug h out t h e country . I n a with all w h o s i ncere l y w i s h t h at our po li cy towar d s . I rn r e el e nd should b e governe d b y hi g h er pr i nc i p l es t h an subser v Should feel that their first consideration ought to he the pro motion of the prosperity' of that interesting portion of the empire,the we felt g r i eve d at w h at we cons id ere d a d e p ar t ure on part of the Tories from the marked indications of a return to a more enl arge d system, an d conce i ve d t h a t L or d John dis cussion w as on l y too much just i f i ed i n announc i ng, i n t h e dis fear On Sir Tho mas A c l an d' s mo ti on , th a t he should hence be „ view any overtures of a more liberal complexion held out the Tories as a snare. Notwithstanding the very sus- P l c, io,tis circumstances in which that motion appeared to ° J e lg e .nate, we will frankly confess that the speech of Sir Robt. i i; 1 last night went far to convince us that the Duke of Wel lington and himself are really, in good earnest, desirous of butting an end to the system by which Ireland has hitherto b een sacrificed to party conflicts. We are not sure that the ex planation gi ven by th e Ri g ht lion. Baronet of the motives u• which t h e pat ty were l e d to b r i ng f orwar d t h e mo ti on re _ s r : eting App ro p r i at i on was a lt oge th e r s a tisfactory ; but. both s , Right Hon. G en tl eman arid the Duke of Wellington have i a tr difficulties, for which allowance ought to be male ; and w i h en we find Sir Robert Peel etating, as he did, most dis tinctly and u nequ i voca ll y , p r i nc i p l es h onoura ble to himself t a,n e o the m ore respecta bl e poi t i on o f t h e party w hi c h h e an d 2 1 Duke o f W e lli ngton represent , an d w hi c h, if a ct e d on, 'inst , above all things, conduce to local the wounds of the sis ter kingdom, we conceive that we should not be justified in re fusinge to the Right Honourable Gentleman fall credence °l, honesty o f i n t ent i on . W e will not be instrumental to the narrow policy of att em pti ng t o c l ose t o political opponents all i ,, retreat Sir Loom principles which they no longer wish to maintain. If ßobert P ee l t e ll s us t h a t " he foresees the coming - ne cessity of settling the question of the Irish Municipal Bill— if he foresee a the necessity of granting corporations to Ireland - -if he foresses the great expediency of granting them"—if he tells us that "ho ought not to withhold the views and in tentions of himself and those with whom he acts from the Ad tninistration, but frankly to state them, and give them, and f e lve the Government an opportunity, if they should so think 14 1 to a cqu i esce i n th em ," we t hi n k t h at th e language of sus- Pieion and distrust would be misplaced, and that the great ins `e res!s at issue demand that h e sh ou ld b e me t i n the same s t )irit of liberality. We are sure that the men of moderate views and sound judgments, the impartial arbitrators between , c , e disputlng rartits on both sides, to whom Sir Ro ob_rti referred as being desirous of the adjustment an l y t these c,uestions, and as being prepared to approve of fa ...,(ttempt, by whemso-ever made, to adjust them upon satis- Rigii r L Y H Pr ncip'cs, will applaud both the advances made by the b, s on. B ironet, and .the spirit with which they were met . .Y . Lord John Russell, who congratulated the House upon the spirit and the manner is which that Right Hon. Baronet had fulfilled fse pledges which he bad given the other night. In the praiseworthy conduct of Sir Robert on this occasion our " °tights were carried beck to a somewhat similar exhibition at the time r of conceding the Catholic Relief Bill ; and we now eel, as we then felt, desirous to avoid mixing anything like taunt or reproach with our approbation of the manly and ge nerous advance ma d e t owa rds a settlement of the leading ques .;l°ns which have been the fruitful cause of so much strife and bit „erness. Our opinions remain unchanged with respect to the ap tr°Ptiation q ues ti on ; fur we cannot forget that the first consi deration ought to be the moral and religious improvement of the Peo ple by whom a Church is supported ; but whilst no practical pod warfare to e gained at the present motnent towsy carto ing on a fruit -I,ss on that point, we consent aive it, in the hope <2. the greater good which will be effected by the approxima tion of parties to a more liberal and healing policy. The eyndhurst faction will probably abuse the Right Honourable • B aronet . ; and, indeed, his language last night tells us that lie 1 ' well aware that he has more to dread from the bigots and zealot s of his own party than front his opponents. "He was c' ) "ent he. said, " that though there might be dissatisfac tiono expressed upon the one hand, as to the e xtent of the eon ieePie'n he was willing to make, so dissatisfaction might b e it and exp resse d u pon the other as to the nigg a . r elly nature of concessions." Without committing ourselve s to an ~, - "Pi : nion on the whole of the particulars on which he entered, We can h ave no hesitation in declaring that we app rove Zf the spirit i n which they appeared to originate ; and if e Right Honourable Baronet did not fear to see the bigots of' his own party at defiance , so we shall not be sound among those who refuse their approbation to a political opponent from a distrust that he may not continue to de serve it, and meet him only with suspicion and doubt. With the former we of course never can have any sympathy, and we hesitate not to cider from the latter en an occasion which challenges a generous response rather than a cautious .• kepticism. So much we have deemed it our duty to state on obis. thi s very critical occasion. That the factious spirits who have sought to make Ireland a stalking horse for their ambition, s ' who can only exist in political storms, and who are now busied, *n an assembly which we will not name, at the;r dirty work, will see in the overtures of Sir Robert Peel and the Duke the •• destruction of their guilty hopes , and see k to frustrate the work It- of pacificati o n, we are prepared to believe. From Lyndhurst, nd men wh o w ith more character to lose than L y ndhurst e ver had, b u t who have manifeste d e q ual recklessness, ever wise and moderate of all parties must prepare for un -"nlpromising hostility. From that violent s ection of th e party who were so much gratified by the exertions (4. Lord Lyndhurst, because he had no scruples, and Was ready to go all lengths for them, to do their bidding what ever it might be, Sir Robert Peel and the Duke have fairly Parted compan. Lor John Russell did not hesitate to in „, in the mo y st favourable anticipations from the views ex .. Pressed by Sir Robert Peel. He drew a vivid picture of the i: evils inflicted on Ireland by the constant agitation in which it Was kept by having so many great questions unsettled. He Tade a distinction between app rovin g of a p rinci p le, and per , .inaciously determining to attempt to give it effect. without ,i havin g the means of doing so. Thus, for instance, Ministers I) 3' not pressing appropriation do toot renounce the principle. Mr. Shaw last night spoke as if Ministers had come to the re solution of appropriation, not g ivin g tils the principle of because it was unattainable, but because it was bad in itself . ; but what did Lord J. Russell reply ? r. 1 fully adhere to the opinions I have repeatedly expressed, and the reason why we have not intro duced into the present Bill a clause founded upon them is, simply, that we did not think we could carry it. If I believed that we stood any chance of carrying the principle of appro priation, I would propose it to-morrow ; but we leave given :,- way because we were most anxious not to do anything which Would postpone or prevent the accomplishment of what in itself is a considerable good." And this is the grent difference be tween embracing sound and unsound principles. To fai l to • „Five effect t o gcod principles is a negation of good, but ev er y °ad principle acted on leads to positive evil. The appropria tion of th e revenues o f a Ch urc h, t h e m i n i s t ra tion of which t an thr ee prov i nces i s not requ i re d b y t h e peop l e , t o the moral tad religious improvement of that people, would no doubt be .--' a .. great go o d ; b ut t h e pract i ca l po li t i c i an h e s to consider wile „. ther that good may not be purchased at too dear a rate, when the price to be paid for it is the sacrifice of the peace, and con legnently the welfare of the kingdom, by the perpetuation of agitation. Mr. Ward avowed his firm adherence to the a ppropriation clause, and undertook to divide the House upon LI " question, even if he stood alone. He seemed to forget that Lord John Russell is just as strongly attached to the Principle as he is, the only difference bei n g , that Lord John 5 2‘4la gell will not idly erect it as an obstacle to the accomplish /tient of what is even valuable withent it. His Lordship lest , . /light spoke as follows respecting the opinion of Earl Grey, fl at, hovvever excellent the principle of appropriotion might ~: be, it would not be nossible to procure its adoption. " When I pressed upon Lord Grey, as I frequently did that any set tlement of the Irish Church would be unsatisfactory unless ' It Portion of its revenues were devoted to general education, .. I was assured by him that, though he did not differ from Site, I should hot be able to carry it into effect. I must "fess that he was right, and that I was mistaken as .. , to the practical result ; and although I am obliged to •• admit it, and although I shall most •justly incur re- Proaehes, because I was favourable to it, I can assert s , 'With perfect sincerity that I was attached to it from no other motive than that I believed it would promote the Rood of my country." Cheers from all sides testified the uni versal credence obtained by this simple and unaffected asseve ration. The shape in which the subject was brought before the House was the motion of Lord John Russell that the Speaker leave the Chair, with a view to the comm ittal of the Irish Municipal Corporations Bill. Near the outset of his •• !Peech Si r Robert Peel at orce acknowledged it to be incum sei nent upon him not to deal in vague generalities on the ques tion, but frankly to inform the Government of the nature of the Insdifications he proposed—where he meant to give an uncorn .. . Prornisiug resistance and where to tender a rea d y a cquiescence. He laid it d own as a p position that the Irish Po or-l a w w as va luable', not merely because it was the commencement of a ne . eessary system of relief, but because it afforded the best test ] °f qualification for the Irish constituency ; and he did not 'neglect the opportunity of bestowing severe ch a s tis e ment u p on l hose who, in the other House of Parliament, had obstinately tae -, en part against a measure, certainly not p erfect, but estab 1, • " s ning a practical system, the defects of which as they became ap .., Parent could without difficulty be remedied. After stating his assent to the proposed resolution of Ministers for convertin g tithes int o arent charge without redemption,and After adverting •: to some minor points, Sir Robert Peel proceeded to the con aideration of the Municipal Bill, the provis ions of which he 'went th roug h i n detail, admitting that the Corporations in .Schedules A an d B oug ht to 'be preserved and reformed, -- , While with respect to the towns in Schedule Che was willing that they should be allowed charters on the petition of the .. major part of the elective body, whenever that elective body exceeded one hundred householders of 10/. per annum, as •aseertained by the rating to the poor. Lord John Russell's ` s ' r eception of the overture of the Right lion. Baronet we have already noticed. Mr. O'Connell also bore willing testimony to the tone and temper of the Leader of the Opposition , but '-• !le insisted strongly that the effect of the Poor-law for Ire land, and of re sulatin resent the elective franchise by it, would be , - to diminish the pnt constituency most materially. Thus we have now a fair chance that a Liberal Ministry will be able to carry into effect three most important measures for the im lproaement of the social condition of Ireland.—Morning Chronicle. The interesting report of last night's Parliamentary pro cetliogs holds out to the country some reasonable prospect that t, the questions which for some years past have been so brought` iaputed with regard to Ire - land may, ere long, be e to a peaceful conclusion, without a serious sacrifice of Lkthose great principles upon which our Protestant Church . ,"as been' esteblished, and our constitutional monarchy up -I:eid. In a frank, enlightened, manly, and most conciliatory s . - - - P ee * Sir Robert Peel announced to the House of Com " :11 " 5 ,. so fa r as lie could do without entering upon minute , details, the nature cf the concessions which he was disposed ! to make, and of the provisioea which be was resolved to insist upon, towards arcomplishing a legislative settle anent of the Irish Church question. and of the Irish Cor w,ration question. The Poor-law 13111 being now in the hands of the House of Lords, was scarcely referred to by th e Righ t Hon. Baronet, save in the general expression of a hope that the rates to be established by the Poor-law might serve as a useful standard for determining the qualification of the political as well as the municipal franchise. For the particulars enu merated by the Right Hon. Barcnet we refer to his speech as reported. But we must unfeignedly congratulate the Conser vative party, the nation at large, and even the Queen's Minis ters, on the hope which may now be, not unnaturally, enter tained of a favourable result to these harassing and perni. dons contests. The leading conditions demanded by Si r Robert Peel were—l. A simple commutation of tithe into rent-charge, unclogged by either any complex re dempticn clauses, which must have inflicted a cruel spoliation upon the Church, or any principle of Church robbery, in the shape of a diversion to secular purposes of her ecclesiastical revenues. 2. His next demand was, that the qualification for the municipal franchise should be the occupancy and payment of rent for premises valued at 201. per annum. We are bound to acknowledg,eethat Lord John Russell, to the s ,re exaspera tion of Mr. Daniel O'Connell, as those about him state, re (Tired in a liberal and conciliatory manner the proposals and opinions of the Right Hon. Baronet, commencing hisreply with as expression of almost confidence that the litigated questicns might satiseactorily settled before the close of the session, and only hinting, though neither angrily nor discouragingly, at a very few points on which it was possible that difficulties might arise in the course of their adjustment. One remark able circumstance adverted to by the Noble Lord was, that during Lord Grey's Ministry he had repeatedly pressed upon that Noble Earl the necessity of combining with any scheme of arrangement for Irish tithe that of appropriating to other than mere Church objects some poetion of the Church reve nues of Ireland ; but that Lord Grey, in admitting the ab stract justice of the principle, assured him of the impossibility of carrying it into practice, for that the people of England would refuse their assent Lord John now confesses that Lord Grey's judgment of his countrymen WAS correct, and that his own was erroneous. We must add, that without any impeachment of his candour, the Secretary for the Home Depattment might have been less slow in making this acknowledgment. However, we are not of a temper to rub the bloom off from this late fruit, or to dim by any semblance of distrust the coulenr de rose which cha• ractetized last night's proceedings, in so far as the Conser vative and Opposition leaders were concerned. The black cloud of the scene sea Mr. Daniel O'Connell, who is repre sented to us as having sat there charged with hatred, boiling with rage, bloated with venom, to some of which, in accents of no common sweetness, he gave loose while Lord John Russell was declaring his readiness to meet the Conservatives half way on the road to peace. The subsequent speech of the learned mischief-maker was a complaint, not of the terms proffered by one party. or accepted by the other, hut, in dis tinct terms, that any Church at all should exist in Ireland which was not the Church of those six millions four hundred thousand Papists, of whom he himself was one. A pretty chance, indeed, we ever had of tranquillizing by rational or temperate policy the turbulence of Popish greediness and malice !— Times. Sir Robert Peel last night made a formal exposition to the House of Commons of his intentions with respect to the po. hey to be pursued with respect to Ireland. It was imme diately with reference to the Municipal Corporations Bill that Sir Robert spoke, but his observations applied generally to the Irish treasures at this moment under the consideration of the Legislature, and were consequent on the abandonment by her Majesty's Ministers of what is variously known by the names of " appropriation" or " alienation" principle, as affect ing the property of the Established Church in Ireland. The Right Hon. Baronet expressed his satisfaction that an oppor tunity would be afforded for discussing the tithe question be fore a final decision should be come to on that of Municipal Corporations, because he considered the satisfactory settle ment of the former as a sine qua non in the adjustment of the latter. The Poor-law Bill he considered, in deed, of vast importance, apart from its eleemosynary objects, as affording in the clauses relating to assessment the only un objectionable guarantee for a really respectable municipal con stituency. Still, though he could not, even in argument, as sume that a Poor-law Bill would not pass, supposing no such measure to be enacted, it might be possible to find a substitute for those parts of it to which he had alluded. But it were vain to attempt a settlement of the municipal question unless that of Church property had been presiously , ,mesimultancously adopted. The point for the establishment orwhich Sir Robert Peel relied on the Poor-law, as bearing on the other Irish questions, was the controul imposed on the wish for the franchise by the desire to avoid being rated too high ; and perhaps it would be difficult to devise any other means so likely to be efficient in ascertaining the bona fide qualification of a mu. nicipal constituency. fir Robert incidentally observed that he would vote for the conversion of tithe commutation into rent-charge, in the manner p,oposed in the resolution pro posed by Government, because he much preferred to have recourse to the great landholders, who were for the most part Protestants, rather than to the occupying tenants, of whom the large majority were Roman Catholics. With respect to Corporations, the Right Hon. Baronet assented to the exist ence of them in all towns in Ireland containing a population of more than fifteen thousand persons—on the distinct pro vision, however, that v,hatever franchise may ultimately be fixed, it must be a bona fide one. As we have already said, he is strongly in favour of a qualification founded on the rating under the Poor-law Bill ; and thinks a ten pound franchise should be universally exacted, as recommended in another part of the kingdom, by the Scottish Municipal Commissioners, in every town where the 10/. householders are above a hun dred in number; this qualification to arise out of twelve months' possession and six months' occupancy of a house, or a house and land conjointly, within the limits of the borough, assessed at that value for the Poor -rate; the boundaries of bo roughs, and the division of them into wards, to be fixed in conformity with the report of the boundary CornruisSioners in 1336. The Right Hon. Gentleman proposes that the ma ' nagement of Corporate property be in all cases confided to the Corporations, always with this restriction, that it can only be made applicable to legitimate Corpora:e purposes. Tolls, if possible, to be abolished, when they shall have ceased to be the security for existing debts. An uniform system of police to be established ; and if additional force be required in any town the addition to be paid out of the Corporate funds. But the whole police, whether for day or night service, to be under the controul of the Crown. The nominations of Sheriffs in towns to be absolutely vested in the Government; an uniform and effective mode to be adopted for auditing the accounts of the Corporation ; but with respect to charity trustees, Sir Robert Peel proposes that time be allowed for consideration, and that the present plan be continued till Parliament shall otherwise determine. In the meantime all vacancies in exist ing trusts to be filled up by the Lord Chancellor ; and the trustees, where Chureh purposes are concerned, to be Mem bers of the Established Church. Sir Robert considers it ad visable that separate provision be made for the administration of justice in the city of Dublin ; but rather than give rise to a suspicion that he is actwited by any party objects he will not insist on this being peremptorily a portion of his plan. With r espect to the smaller town:, the Right H on . B aronet d oes not sec the necessity for forcing upon them the expensive es tablishment of Municipal Corporations, but thinks it would answer every purpose if the corporate funds were administered by authorities chosen by the public voice. If any of these smaller towns should be desirous of corporate institu ticns a chaster may be granted, on an application to the Lord Lieutenant, by a majority of the 10/. householders. This, we believe, will be found a tolerably correct analysis of the course proposed by Sir Robert Peel. That it is liberal, in the truest and largest sense of the word—that it sacrifices party prejudices at the shrine of public good—must be universally admitted ; that it is founded on a statesmanlike view of domes tic policy, and offers the fairest prospect of domestic peace, there can be no doubt. The statement was listened to by men of all parties with the most respectful attention, and received by all with such evident cordiality, as to give place to a confi dent hope that to the other titles of Sir Robert Peel to the public gratitude we may, and at no distant time. and by uni versal consent, be enabled to add that of " Pacificator of I-e -land."—Morning Post. On Saturday, the 2:3d of June, Sir Robert Peel will entertain at dinner the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, Duchess of Gloucester, Prince George, Prince Esterhazy, Duke of Wellington, Marquis and Marchioness of Salisbury, Earl and Countess Brownlow, kc The Iberia was detained at Lisbon by order of the Admiral a day beyond her regular time, but for this the mails would have been in yesterday, although the vessel had a strong easterly wind to steam against. . The most correct particulars of Epsom Races with a portrait of the winner of the Derby, will appear in B.ll's Life iii London, of Sunday, the 3d of June. The price of Bell's Life in London is Five-pence. Office, 170, Strand, where can be had together or sepa rate for Three-pence each, Part 1, t 2, 3,4, 5, and 6. of the Gallery of Comicalities. _ _ _ IRON STEAMER.—On Thursday last, her Ma jesty's birthday, an iron steam.yacht, the GlAv.worm, of nearly 400 tons measurement, was launched from North Birkenhead. The security against fire in iron vessels, their great speed, with small proportionate power, their strength, buoyancy, and great capacity for stowage having been so saiistactorlly proved by the experience of the vessels already built, have, we understand, already drawn to them the attention of the is,taerat, n i: i si a n , t i e g r a e t s i t o e n dln i t , l ,t e wi o , m oo l i a in i i b e , s on. f u rmrd and forming for transatlantic On Saturday a new East Indiamen, called the Earl of llardwicke, the property of Mr. Richard Green, of the firm of Green and Co., was launched from their docks at Blaekwall. The bur then of the new ship is 1,000 tons, her leng,h 170 feet, and her breadth 36 feet; the poop is 55 feet long and seven feet high ; and her gun deck is also seven feet high. There are fifteen ports larboard and star board, so that her compact but roomy cabins can be at any time well sup plied with air. She is a fine specimen of improved naval architecture. Mrs. Yorke, in the absence of the Countess of Hardwicke, who was pre. vented by illness from attending to perform the ceremot.y of naming the ship, threw the sponsorial bottle an act of violence, as one of the gen. tlemen afterwards remarked, "she had never before committed on the Earl of Hardwicke " The spzcious docks were thrown open to the public, and soon crowded with several thousands of persons of both sexes and of all ages, while every elevated spot in the distance, and the various vessels and steam-boats lying in th e r i ver were resorted to by ot h ers . Flags and strearre , s floated from th e r i gg i ng of the Madagas car, the launch, and the neigt.bouring shipping On Thursday afternoon, about five o'clock, a dread ful accident occurred at Devizes. A waggon-load of rakes were brought e e t t ri o d o l a : s fright, lcy and in their progress upset an orange attachedii o tlte Were about to be unloaded, the horses stand near the Post .office, on which a girl was sitting, with an infant m to ar t k h about five weeks old ; both were much injured by the trampling of the horses on them, and the infant died during the night; the girl still re mains in a very precarious state. One or two other persons were injured but not seriously.— Wilts Herald.. The bloom of plums and cherries is this year unu sually abundant ; but fears are entertained that much of the expected Icrop will be cut off by the late unseasonable cold weather. THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MAY 30. 183-'. ELECTION COMMITTEES. YESTERDAY. themselves the germ of appropriation.—(Hear, and laughter.) Now it was because it was utteily impossible for us to enter upon a resolution which was vague and ambiguous, and which did include within itself the germ of appropriation, that we felt it incumbent on us, before enter ing into the details of that resolution, manfully and openly to de clare our adherence to the principles which we had put forward. The Hight Hon. Gentleman said, why bring forward a motion which you know her Majesty's Government could not accede to ? My answer was, because we thought that you meant to invite us to the discussion of resolutions whose principles you know we could never assent to. If they asked us to discuss the first resolution, namely, the extent of reduction of the present revenues of the Church, without making us acquainted as to the mode of appropriation,that would be unfair, and we should therefore refuse acceding to any probable reduction, until you told us fairly whether your plan included within itself the principle and germ of ap propriation—it being necessary at some time or other for our own satis. faction, and that of the country, that the question of appropriation should be fairly considered and discussed.—(Hear, hear, hear.) We, therefore, did, instead of bringing forward an abstract principle to which great objections might be made, and which the experience of the last few days has taught mc would be made—instead of bringing forward any abstract principle negativing alienation— we thought it better to propose the rescinding of the resolution involving that principle. I can say as I said before, if we had any mo tive for postponing the consideration of this question, if we were per fectly satisfied with the condition of the Irish Church, and preferred the existing law remaining in its present state. If these were the motives that actuated us then, why should they not actuate us now?—(Cheers.) No, Sir; I declare my adherence to the decla ration of last Session of a Noble Friend of mine, that provided we were satisfied with respect to the principle to which he gave his unqualified assent, then he was prepared to consider the means to bring this question to an amicable termination. The two ques tions to which I more particularly refer are the provisions made by this House with respect to the Irish poor, and the argument which we shall have shortly under consideration with respect to the collection of Irish tithes, and the position of the Irish Church on the ques_ tion which is this night to be submitted, at least pro forma, in Committee, relative to Irish Municipal Corporations. With respect to the Irish Poor Law Bill, I consider that measure only touches those two questions in a single point of view; but that point is one of very great moment. The point to which I refer is this—that by establishing the principle of rating, it gives you a satisfactory test of the qualification of the constituent body. That is the only way in which the Poor Law Bill is connected with this ques. (From our Seconi Edition of last night.) lY ESTME A TI I. Mr. WILVVGIIANI addressed the Committee at considerable length in opposition to the application for a Commission. The Committee decided shortly before four o'cloc.1; that the Commis sion should not be issued, The Committee then adjourned. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MA Y 29. The SPEAKER took the chair at the usual hour. The Lords' amendments to several private Bills were read a third time and agreed to. REBUILDING OF THE ROYAL EXCHANGE. Mr. CRAWFORD moved for leave for the Committee on the Royal Exchange Rebuilding Bill to sit to.morrow, which was granted. IRISH CORPORATIONS REFORM. Mr. POWER presented several petitions from places Ia the county of Westmeath in favour of Irish Corporation Reform. IRISH POOR LAW BILL. Mr. MUSKETT presented petitions from places in the county 6f Mayo, against the Irish Poor-law Bill. - CHURCH LEASES. Mr. PARKER presented a petition from the county of Devon, praying that any additional value which may be given to Church property may be applied exc:ulively to ecclesiastical purposes. MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS. Mr. WARBURTON presented a petition from the Medical Practi tioners of Sheffield, complaining of the uneducated state of Medical Practitioners, and preying for a remedy; a!so a petition from the Medi cal Practitioners of Ulster, complaining of the operation of the Irish Apothecaries' Act. NEGRO SLAVERY. Mr. HOBHOUSE presented a petition from Aylesbury for the imme diate abolition of Negro slavery. REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AND MARRIAGES. An Hov. MEMBER presented a petition from Bath against the Acts for the Registration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages, and praying for more effectual security against clandestine marriages. Mr. Serjeant JACKSON presented petitions from the counties of Ccrk and Donegal against the national system of education. Also a petition from 40 clergymen in Dublin, praying-for an alteration in the Ecclesiastical polity of Ireland and the restoration of the ten bishoprics which were suppressed. The Report of the Committee on the Lough Foyle and Lough Swilly Drainage Bill was brought up. Sir G. STRICKLAND brought up the Report of the Committee on the Kirkstall, Ilkley, and Shipley Road Bill. The Report of the Committee on the St. Philip's (Bristol) Bridge Bill was further considered. Mr. LEFROY presented a petition from the Warden and Masters of Galway College, praying that their interests might be respected in the Irish Corporation Bill. Mr. BROCKLEHURST presented a petition from the inhabitants of Macck sfield, praying that that town might he incorporated. Also a petition from the same place in favour of a reduction of postage. The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Eastern Counties Railway bill (which stood for to-morrow) was, we understand, deferred till Friday. Mr. ACKLAND moved that the thanks of the House he given to the Rev. Joh❑ Vane, the Chaplain, for the sermon preached by him this day before the House, at St. Margaret's Church, Westminster, and that the same be punned with the votes.—Agreed to. Sir S. CANNING postponed his motion relative to the capture of the Vixen till the lath of June. Mr. WYSE gave notice, that on Tuesday fortnight, he would move far a renewal of the Committee on arts and manufactures. Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that on the same day lie would move for certain Papers connected with West India affairs. CHARITIES COMMISSION. Sir T. ACLAND wished to ask the Noble Lord whether he had given attention to a petition, sometime ago presented to the House and printed with the votes, from the Trustees of a Charity, of which we could not learn the name, complaining that sentence was passed up in their conduct before the inquiry was concluded, and praying the House to direct that inqt.iry to be renewed. The petitioners also complained that their ac counts had been taken from them by the Commissioner. Lord J. RUSSELL said that his attention had only been recently directed to the petition, and he had requested the Commissioner to give him a statement of his reasons for the report complained of. Until he (Lord .T. Russell) received the answer, he was unprepared to give any further explanation. I think the test of rating is most important and indispensable; but I cannot say, supposing that the Irish Poor Law should by any circum stance fail, that that wou'd by a valid reason for postponing other mea sures—l hold them to be so important as to afford no ground for ob jection to Irish Corporations because you have not an Irish Poor Law. I do, however, consider it absolutely necessary to substitute seine cor. responding test, viz., sine controlling check by which you can deter _ _ _ . . mine what shall be the true basis of the franchise. Sir, I voted for the lrish Poor-law Bill, though I am bound to confess that nothing would have been easier than to have found fault with many of its details—but I felt that it was impossible for us to introduce a system of relief for the poor into a country in which they had never existed without giving a very large discretionary power—(Hear, hear) —and therefore it was that I looked over many of the faults contained in the Bill, thinking it was impossible to frame the Bill free &cm some faults.—(Loud cheers.) It was not because I thought the Bill was perfect, but think ing if Poor Laws were to be established at all, you must establish a system, probably imperfect at first, but one which, in the course of time would chew its imperfections, and call for a remedy. Hear, hear.) After the great cry for poor-laws for Ireland I was not astonished at the opposition to it when it came prac. tically home to the pocket. I, remembered the frequent appeals which were made for death, but when death actually arrived the applicant had changed his mind.—(Laughter.) Except as a test for the future franchise, I do not see that the Dish Poor-law Bill is connected with the other measure. With respect to the Established Church I entertain a very different sentiment. I wish to see the Tithe question settled in a satisfactory manner; but it is essentially necessary that it should be settled as a preliminary—it is necessary that Parliament should make up its mind upon the principle upon which the Tithe question should be settled, as a preliminary to the working of Corporations in places in which they were to be established. I must, Sir, insist upon that question being satis factorily settled. I must insist upon, I must claim a strict adherence to the compact of the Union, and to the principles contained in the Bill for the relief of 'the Roman Catholics. If Corporations are to be established for the purpose of shaking that compact and those principles, then it will be my duty to resist them to the last. Now, Sir, I conceive it would be perfectly competent to us to adhere to the existing law with respect to Irish tithes. I conceive it would be perfectly open to us to say, we are satisfied with the condition of the Irish Church. We see less of agitation, less of dissatis faction prevailing. We see the law at least more regularly enforced —more tithes recovered than before ; and upon the whole, trusting to our own strength to negative the appropriation principle, in which strength I should feel great confidence—(Hear, hear, from the Tories) — we might say we are willing to permit the Irish Church to re. main as it is at present.—(Hear.) It would be perfectly competent to us to take that course ; but then we must not urge the non-settlement of the Irish Tithe question as a bar to the settlement of the question IRISH FISHERIES. Mr. BARRON begged to ask the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ire land, whether any measures had been taken by the British Government to protect the Fisheries on the Suir and Shannon, and to prevent the destruction of weirs, and loss of life. Lord MORPETH said that he did not think the Government ought to take upon themselves what weirs were legal or iflegal, but was certainly their duty to take measures to prevent riots. TERRITORY OF OUDE. hlr. PR AED begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Hob house) whether there was any objection to lay upon the table the ad vices received from the British resident at the Court of Oude, respect ing the recent alteration of the succession 7—and also whether the Governor-General had received instructions to take possession of that relating to Irish Corporations.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If we profess to be satisfied with the present state of the Irish Church —if we prefer the existing law to any new law that can be introduced— if we object to the settlement of the Irish Tit he question, we ought not to urge the non settlement of that question as an insuperable obstacle to the settlement of the Corporation question.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The question is—is it for the interests of Ireland, is it for the in terests of the Irish Church, that the Irish Tithe question should remain in its present state ? I believe the prevailing feeling in many parts of Ireland is in favour of the existing law—l believe there are many who territory ? Sir J. HOBHOUSF. said that there was no objection to lay the papers on the table. The remaining portion of the Right Hon. Gcntl2mares anawc r was totally inaudible in the gallery. Mr. PR AED then was understood to intimate that he should on a future occasion move for all the papers connected with the subject. HUSH NATIONAL EDUCATION. Mr. WYSE postponed his motion respecting Irish National Education for a fortnight, in order not to interfere with the intended exposition of the Right Hon. Baronet's (Sir R. Peel's) sentiments on that subject, would prefer the existing, law to any change Parliament is likely to intro- duce. They state that a largeproportion ofthe tithe is now recovered—they say my Noble Friend (Lord Stanley's) Bill is coming into gradual opera tion, giving to the Clergy the whole of the tithe commutation in case:: where the landlords have not undertaken the charge. Sir, lam bound to say, looking to the permanent interests of the Irish Church, that T, for one, cannot acquiesce in that proposition. I do believe it to be for the interests of the Irish Church that the Irish Tithe question should be adjusted, upon a reasonable and satisfactory principle. I admit there is at present, perhaps, less of disturbance of the public peace than there ha; been at former periods—that there is in force a more effectual process for the recovery of Tithes—that _ . . which now, of all others, deeply iiterested the people of Ireland — Municipal Corporations. IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on this Bill. Sir . It. PEEL then rose and said,—Sir, I will now avail myself of this opportunity of fulfilling the promise which I made to the House some days since, that I would, previous to the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Municipal Corporations Bill for Ireland, indicate my general views and intentions with re spect to those measures regarding the internal policy of Ireland, which are now awaiting the decision of the Legislature. Sir, my wish is not to enter into a minute examination of the details of the measures ; but rather to give a clear and comprehensive view of the general principles which I propose to apply to their consi deration fearing lest the leading principles should be rendered I, , ss intelligible by entering now into details.—(llear, hear, hear.) Sir, I shall preface my explanation by referring to the statement which was made by a Noble Friend of mine in the other House of Parliament, in the course of the last Session, when, on account of the demise of his late Majesty, her Majesty's Government signified their i n _ tention of postponi n g the further consideration of the Irish measures —my Noble Friend, the Duke of Wellington, made this declara tion with reference to the Irish Municipal Bill, and this declaration was on a former occasion quoted by the Noble Lord opposite (J. Russell.) My Noble Priced on the 29th June 1837 said : " On former occasions i stated my objections to this Bill, and I still retain these objections. But it is my anxious wish to put an end to the discussions with respect to this Bill, anti the Irish Poor-law Bill, and the Irish Tithe Bill , by bringing them to an amicable determinatio n . It is m y ear nest wish to put an end to the Irish Tithe question. I am desirous that s ome legal provision should be made for the poor in Ireland. And I am also de sirous to see the Irish Corporation q uestion settled ; and t hat the discussions on these subjec:s should thus be brought to a close." In the course of the last Session, and in the course of the present Se ssion, I declared my concurrence in the o p inions expressed by the Duk e of m year t l e i n es d t i, d ,g t.sir t e o that, satisfactory if possible, s a o \ n - e , l e l nrtro:*l.. arrangement s e t n a t te d s that ld it b was made e adjustment of those questions—(Hear)—and that we might be permitted to apply our minds to the consideration of the general interests of Ireland, without being led by those feelings which disputes on these questions naturally engender. In the course of last year r - made another declaration on occasion of the third reading of the Muni.. cipal Bill. I stated on the 11th April, 1837, if on seeing th ese measures with respect to the Irish Church and the establishment of Poor-laws in Ireland, I should be prepared to modify in any degree my opposition to the Municipal Corporations Bill, then I told the Noble Lord my chief anxiety would be, being in opposition, dis. tinctly to say what those modifications were. Knowing th e p r i n. c" les on which it is proposed by Government to settle the Poor-law ques tion, and the Tithe question, we ought not to deal in vague generalities with respect to the Irish Municipal Bill. If we oppose it altogether on permanent grounds, they should be distinctly avowed, and by that rule we ought to abide. If we are prepared to make concessions, the na ture and extent of such concessions ought not to be withheld, but to be fully explained. Now, it is not merely becausethese declarations previously made may be supposed to be binding on the individual who made them ; but because I now feel and entertain the opinion then set forth, that I come forward to give the explanation which I now give. I do retain the same anxiety which I professetilast year, to see these several questions brought to an amicabletermination. I do hold it incum. bent upon us, being in Opposition, after the length of time that has elapsed since these measures were first proposed, provided we get full satisfaction upon thus e aicstions on which we have dill. red...l refer particularly to the interests of the Established Church—(Hear)—l do thi,,k it incumbent upon us t o deal not in vague generalities with respect to the Irish Mu nicipal Bill, but frankly to inform the Government what are the modifi cations to which we are disposed to consent. It would not be right, after the full opportunity which has been given to us, to withhold our views from the knowledge of Government. If we • are prepared to . - a larger amount of Tithe is realized in many parts of Ire'and— that there is less of agitation upon this subject than there was at former periods : those are the arguments in favour of not touching the existing law. In reply to those arguments, I cannot but feel that the settlement of that question broadly depends upon the basis on which this question of Irish Corporations is placed—that it broadly de pends on this—that there may be (and I wish to avoid every thing which has in the least anything like an offensive character about it); but at the same time I must say there may be reasons for inculcating tranquillity, and submission to the laws, which may not always exist. Depend upon it, however, that you cannot agitate the tithe question without engaging in other topics of irritation.—(Hear.) You cannot encourage the violation of the law in respect to tithes, without giving rise to the worst habits amongst the people. You cannot resist the payment of tithes without endangering rent, and even the salmon the repo Gen tleman omosite proposes to protect by his Bill could not se in safety in their own rivers.—(A laugh.) By the resistance of the law on the . question of tithes all property is endangered. If we were now to refuse toacccdeto theproposition for the settlement of the tithe question we ourselves will recede from the ground which we have taken, by relying upon a calm which may be but temporary, and may have arisen from the fact that there was a prospect of the settlement, and that we had taken up the question. If we recede now, we shall take upon ourselves the responsibility of what may befal the Church. What may the consequences, if wa leave the question still unsettled ? In a great part of Ireland the clergy must, for several years to come, remain dependent upon the resident tenantry, who are chiefly Roman If we refuse, on the part of the Church of Ireland, to listen to propositions for the satisfactory adjustment of the question—and if violence be hereafter resorted to, and blood should necessarily be shed, the favour able feeling which now prevails might be changed, and the Church adjustment h than ear) wou ld be held re s p onsi ble. The settlement of the tithe question would theC when h t — h there i s ecom parative satisfactory calm.—(Hear, a t ei be forced on under circumstance s affording less prospect of a wel advise have now ts comprehens ive and permanent interests—not to neglect the time which is favoura ble to adjustment. But, Sir, I could n o t co nsiste n tly w ith m y former c ourse, have entered upon the question of Corporation reform, if t h e Noble Lord h ad not led me to hope that there was a chance of a conciliator y settlement. In waiving my . objections to this Bill for the sake of peace, and applying myself to an amicable course, I am not b oun d uncle' all circumstances to vote; it would b e an unwor th y waste o f time to occupy the House with the discus s i on, w h ich measure should c come on first. The Noble Lord said "before you give a final consent to this Bill you shall have an opportunity of din. cussing with me the provisions of the Tithe Bill. I only receive your consent to the Irish Corporation Bill so far as you can commit yourself to it, on the understanding that it may be satis factory to you." I retain of course my own opinions, but I think, with this declaration on the part of the Noble Lord, it would be unbecoming in me to enter into any party contest.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord states it is his intention in Committee, to propose a ge neral resolution on the subject of Irish Tithe composition—that it should be converted into a rent charge, payable by the first estate of inheritance, .and therefore in considerable part by the Protestant land lords. Sir, I shall give my consent to that resolution. I say nothing of the amount of deduction—that is not matter of principle but of detail —(llear)—with respect to which I reserve myself for thq Committee on the Irish Tithe Bill. But as to the preliminary proposal, that tithe composition shall be converted into a rent-charge, I shall give my assent to that, because I think it an immense advantage to Irish Clergymen that they should recover their tithe principally from the Protestant proprietors—the great proportion of the landed proprietors— instead of the occupying tenantry, who are generally Roman Catholics. If I refuse to assent to this 'general proposition of the No ble Lord, on tile part of the Church, I perpetuate the present sys tem in some parts of Ireland—(gear, hear)—until exis ing leases terminate; and I repeat I shall therefore assent to this proposition. I doubt whether the best position in which the Irish Church could be paced would not be that of having a rent charge payable by the first estate.--(Hear, hear, hear.) Sir, I heard without the slightest regret the proposal of the Noble Lord to abandon for the present the resolutions with respect to redemp offer permanent and uncompromising opposition to the settlement of any question, that ought to be frankly declared, and that ought to be the rule by which we should abide. If, on the other hand, we forsee the coming necessity of settling the question—if we foresee the necessity of granting Corporations to Ireland—if we foresee the expediency of granting them, we ought not to withhold our views and intentions, but frankly to state them, and give the Govern. ment opportunity of acquiescing in them. The Noble Lord and others seemed to think that the course we took on the proposal • - of my Honourable Friend, the Member for Devonshire, to rescind the resolution of 1835, was inconsistent with those former declarations. They appeared to have inferred that we had changed our minds with re spect to the expediency of resisting this measure of Municipal Reform. Some would infer that we were more satisfied with the condition of the Irish Church than at previous Periods—that we were disposed to rest on the existing law with respe2tto the Irish Church—and - that we brought forward that motion with a view of impeding or postponing the settlement of that question—that being satisfied with the condition of the Irish Church,We might suffer the Irish Municipal Corporations to re main as they were. If that were the impression of the Noble Lord and others it was erroneous. If these were the motives by w hi c h we were in fluenced in bringing forward the motion, then why should we not b e in fluenced by the same motives in bringing it forw a rd now ? On that occa sion on the division that took place, 312 or 314 recorded their o2 uno . ns on the subject of the Appropriation principle. lf, th er efore, that m otion was brought forward from a desire to av o id th e cons ideration of the question, or to postpone its settlement th ere cou ld b e no rea son, after that demonstration of strength on the appropri a ti on' r i nc i p l e , why, we shou ld not now be governed by the same motives. But, Sir, the motion was not brought forward on such grounds,and I wi s h no t now, b eca use it is inconsis tent with my present views to revive the asperities ofthe fornzer discussion —I wish to state distinctly upon what grounds we brought forward that motion. We thought it essentially necessary to pLice on record our con tinued adherence to the resolution, that we could not admit of the alien tion of Church property.—(Hear, hear.) We thought there was not in the resolutions of the Noble Lord, or in the short speech which accom panied them, neither a distinct disclaimer of the appropriation clause, nor a distinct intimation of the ext en t to w hi c h i t m i g ht be involved in that resolution. We found that r eso l ut i on sent to I re l an d unaccompanied by any exp'amtion, and that possibly an erroneous but not an unnatural construction might be placed on it by those who were peculiarly sensi tive on the alienation of such property, namely, that this resolution did not involve it. They at a distan ce f rom t h e scene o f acticn would con sider, finding in one of those reso l ut i ons the word " apdropriation," the word " surplus," and the word " e d ucat i on, " wou ld u niversally believe that such was its meanin g; nor was that cons t ruc tion unnatural or unmeaning, and when I rem i nd the Hon. M em b e r for Wiltshire that after two days' discussi on h e could not determ i ne what the resolu tion meant with respect t o appropr i at i on ; an d , o n the other hand , when I remind the Hon. Member for Sheffield, himself the author of the appropriation principle, th a t h e h a d di s tinctly declared, with all his experience in alienation principles, and after appl7 . ,ing his mind to the subject of these resoluti ons , his first impression was that it was vague and ambiguous, and VIIS second was that they included witluP ear, h ear. ) lion, on acco un t o f th e i mmense difficulty inherent in this question. — And, Sir, if we wait for the settlement of this ques tion, until we h ave made a sat i s f actory arrangemen t on the sub ject of redemption, I am afraid that we must relinquish for a considerable time that settlement. At the same time, of course the Noble Lord i s no t respons ibl e f or th e o bjections to a scheme of redemp . lion. Having, however, redeemed the tithe, on some princ i p le of valua tion to b e d etermined on hereafter; you mus t d e t e rmine in what manner to apply the mo ne y. Th e best security is generally su pp osed to be the purcha se o f l and ; but I think there arc g reat and valid objee. tions to su c h a course— (H ear, ) —to snaking the Church of Ireland an enormou s landed proprietor, man aging large estates by extensive bounds, and receiving the revenues.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The effect of coining into market for the purchase of such land would be to raise the value of land in Ireland. And where was it to be ob tained ? In the north? Not under a very considerable sum. If it is to be purchased in the South, what is the consequence ? That the Irish Church is to have a large number of Roman Catholic pro prietors. But after defraying the expenses of Boards, Commissioners, Surveyors, making abatements from the rents, which would be ex. peeled from the Church in bad years, in my opinion the actual profits would be exceedingly small; and after they would become possessed of the landed estate, why should it not be pretty much in the same position in which the property of the Church of England is—namely, a proposition to put it into the hands of Government to realize it ? The same objec tions would apply—the neglect of property managed by large Corpora tions, and other matters of a similar nature —all these objections would. of course apply, and with much more increased force, inasmuch as the landed property of the Church of Ireland would be of recent origin com pared to th at i n England. I am afraid, too, it would be fou nd that Van actual sur , e y weretrade of the land gr anted to the Church in lieu of the payment of tith es , you would see it wa s not g enerall y so well ma naged. When I state these defects, I d on't mean that they should apply to the p urc h ase o f occas ional glebes in each p arish . M y objections merely apply of money t o b e manage d on th e part of the Church by C ommissioners to the general princip le of investing a large sum appointed for that purpose. Suppose we don't invest the money in the purchase of land, the next best security will be the public funds, and of this I have a strong impression. I am satisfied the most profitable investment for the Church would be in the funds. Take the case of the purchase of the original tithe composition 1001. for 1,800/., and then determine the most profitable mode of applying the 1,600/ I have not the least hesitation in saying that in two or three years you will find the most profitable investment in the public funds. Al WM said by a friend of m i n e,...tbose who take their money from the funds to invest it in landed property after Iniviog paid all the expenses, may find cause to regret the beautiful simplicity of the 0 per Cents.—(Laughter.) It would be far more profitable to invest the 1,6001. in lieu of the 100/. Irish Tithe composition in the 3 per Cents.. Now suppose the investment was made, what is the sum the Irish Church would receive ? This day the 3 per cents. are at 94. Suppose the 1,6001. were invested in the 3 per cents.— I OW. invested in the 3 per cents. when they are et 94 will certainly produce less than 31. 4s. per an num. But I will take it at 31. 4s. and therefore the sum that 1,6001 would produce would be 511. 4s. Take 511.45. ,from 100/., and you have the sum which would be remaining for the income of the Irish • clergymen, namely, 48/. 1 fis., and this is the most profitable investment which would leave 48/. 16s, out of every 100/. of tithe composition.— (Cries of " No, no.") Ti - erefore the effect of the Noble Lord's resolu tion would be, not a deduction from the Irish clergy of thirty per cent. on the amount of their tithe composition, but it would have been, at the termination of existing interests, a reduction to the amount of 48/ lfis.—(Hear, hear.) On that account, therefore, I do not hear with the slightest regret the Noble Lori's proposal to abandon the complicated system of redemption. I think, Sir, that any system of a redemption of the rent charge must be so complicated, that I think it infinitely better to address ourselves to the simpler parts of the principle, and realise the advantages it holds out. Sir, I shall most cordially assent to the proposal made in former years by my Noble Friend for effectually curing any defects or abuses that may exist in the Irish Church. Where there are livings with emoluments totally disproportionate to the duties to be performed, I am content to consent to the reduction of these emoluments—where sinecures exist I would abolish them entirely. Where there are non-residences I would provide for residence under such conditions and stipulations as might effect the object proposed. It appears to me that no adjustment can be satisfactory which does not put an end to the complaints made on former occasions. But as the last Bill approached nearly to the settlement of the question, I, retaining my opinions, cannot anticipate, on that point, any material difF,!rence— T mean as to the measures for altering the incomes where they were disproportionate. Under any circumstances, a redistribution of Church 'property must be understood to imply the mainteliance of the principle of no alienation of Church property to secular purposes ; if there he a surplus, it shall be bona fide applied for the increase of the efficiency of the Church. We are quite aware of the situation in which we stand with respect to Irish Tithes—we feel strong and confident in our own strength in the appropriation. We have a right to feel so, not upon our mere party strength, but we have the voice, the defile rate voice of the people of England against the appropriation.—(Cheers.) I do not con ceal from myself, arguing this question fairly, that the voice of the people is for indentity of institutions ill England and Ireland. Looking at the state of the Irish Church—considering that every year a law passed for the purpose of converting tithe composition into rent—conaidering that more than half the revenues have fallen into a rent charge—that was a very strong ground for the landed proprietors of Ireland lending themselves with' the Church to an amicable adjustment. They, on that side of the House, did not feel dependent upon the assent of the other side against the appropriation principle. They thought that upon that point they had strength enough to defend it, backed as they were by the deliberate voice of the people. But this (continued the Right Hon. Gentleman) in no degree abates my desire to see the question settled. Trusting, therefore, that there is a possibility of a satisfactory adjust ment of the tithe question, I shall now, with the permission of the House, proceed to consider the more proper subject of the night— namely, the Irish Municipal Bill.--(Hear.) I wish, at the same time, to be distinctly understood—supposing that in any attempt to effect the reduction of tithe into rent-charge our efforts should fail—l think it ab solutely necessary to state, that I shall not feel myself bound beyond the present time to any amount of reduction. If my offer be rejected I shall not afterwards make concessions in detail, or be bound beyond the pre sent period, but shall assert my perfect right at a future period to ap. proach the consideration of the Church quc;stien free froze any engage ment. I shall hold myself at liberty to consider the question perfectly unfettered by the offer 'have now made. On the assumption, then, that an arrant - ement of the tithe question will be effected, I proceed to con sider the Irish Municipal Bill, and to state the general course which it is my intention to pursue when that measure shall come under the consideration of the House. Sir, lam willing to begin that state ment by admitting at once that I believe any hope of a satisfactory arrangement must be futile which does not recognise the estab blishment of Municipal bodies on the basis of popular influence.— (Hear.) To talk of investing the functions of existing Corporations in Commissioners I know would be perfectly useless ; and, therefore, I am willing to establish Corporations in Ireland on a basis similar to those of England--namely, popular election by constituencies to be re gulated by the Act.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, the Bill which has been read a second time provides for the establishment of Corporations in three classes of towns, which are numerated in three schedules, A, B, and C. I propose, in the first instance, to deal with the two first schedules, A and B, which include eleven towns, Belfast, Cork, Dublin, Galway, Lime rick, Clonmel, Newry, Drogheda, Londonderry, Sligo and Waterford, each containing, I believe, above fifteen thousand inhabitants. I know 'not whether the selection was governed by this principle ; but it so hap pens that the number selected is coincident with numbers of towns having a population of above 15,000. Now, with respect to these towns which contain more than 15,000 inhabitants. I shall assent' to the esta blishment of Corporations in all. Let us assume, if you please, that Municipal Corporations in large towns is in itself good—that it is de. sirable that Ireland should not be without them ; and, assuming that, I shall at once consent to their establishment ; whether when the point of honour shall have been removed the towns will be desirous to have it, is another matter. But, foreseeing considerable difficulty in towns of that magnitude in managing corporate property by any other arrangement, I shall not oppose further these demands for corporations. I do not quarrel either with the designation given to corporations in the Bill. Perhaps the best course would be, as I wish to give a clear state ment, to state, first, thy extent to which I would grant corporations; secondly, the nature of the franchise I would have established; and, thirdly, the boundaries which should define the limits of jurisdiction, the wards into which the towns should be divided, and the total powers to be exercised by those corporate bodies. Then thereare other matters of detail, but I apprehend that, without entering into minute details, I can state the general line I intend to take in a much more satisfactory manner.—(Hear, hear.) First, with respect to the franchise, I shall positively insist on a bona fide franchise.—(llear, hear.) I, for one, will not consent to be a party in incurring evils in municipal bodies, similar to those now arising from the present state of the elective fran chise.—(Hear, hear.) I will not consent to incur the necessity of ap pointing a Committee to inquire into fictitious votes. I have looked through the evidence given before the (Fictitious Votes) Commit. tee, and I must say that in establishing a new franchise, it ap pears to me that there never was a duty more imperative on this House, than to establish a strict and welLunderstood definition of the franchise.—(Hear, hear.) In looking into these proceedings, I find that none of the tests of value now used have proved satisfac tory ; and therefore I will have no test that depends on the mere valua. lion of the voter.—(Hear, hear.) You must not introduce a fresh temp. tation to the taking of false oaths; and, however we differ in other points, I expect the general concurrence of the House in this senti ment in a determination to adopt a bona fide franchise in Municipal Corporations.—(Hear, hear, from all shies of the House.) In the first place we ought to know what franchise you mean to give; in the se cond, your means of avoiding temptation to fraud. It is required by the interests of morality, by every interest which can affect - the morals or prosperity of the people, that we should avoid in any hCw legisla tion affording any inducement to fraud and corruption.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I conceive that by far the most satisfactory test is that which con tains within itself a controulling check. I think that under the Poor Law we shall find the best test that can be devised, because by it we set against the voter's desire to possess the franchise his reluctance to be overtaxed—(Hear)—who posseses the franchise, if unduly taxed, will remonstrate : thus the real value will be ascertained, and a controulling check established. If circumstances should prevent you providing this check I should feel myself wholly unreasonable in insisting on it; but some check tantamount to it will be necessary for me to have. Perhaps, in fixing on the Poor-rate as a test, I am dealing with a hypothetical case ; but I may presume I may calculate on the speedy adoption of some poor law for Ireland which will serve as a standard, seeing the universal desire that exists for some measure of the kind. I should, therefore, simply propose the adoption of the poor rate as a test of qualification for the municipal franchise. Now, Sir, as to the amount of qualification, I do not conceal from myself the fact that there is con siderable apprehension, for a ten pound qualification will be found far too low, and twenty pounds has been suggested as the qualification which should prevail in the larger towns. This is a very general opinion ; but, at the same time, I am bound to say that, considering it is double the amount of the elective franchise, believing that to rise the franchise in those towns would be on the whole much less satisfactory than the adoption of a uniform practice, I am content to take ten pounds as the standard of qualification for all.—(Elear, hear.) lam willing to be satis fied with ten pounds in the larger towns; but, as I said before, always frith the condition that it shall be a bona fide qualification—(Hear)— that I shall distinctly understand what it is I am giving.—(Hear.) Now, I only hope that Hon. Gentlemen will not undertake hastily to decide on individual suggestions, but wait patiently until I have opened my whole scheme. I address myself to both sides of the House.—(Hear.) I pro pose that the ten-pound franchise shall be universal, and I consider I have great and disinterested authority for the application of that uniform franchise. I find that the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of municipal corporations in Scotland—Commissioners appointed by the present Government—have given an opinion, not with any view to this particular question, but on a point exactly analogous, but one in which no party feeling could be mixed up—l find them expressing this opinion :-- ".The same qualifications required in the election of representatives in Parliament are adopted and applied to the election of the Councils of the burghs—namely, that they shall either occupy, as proprietors or tenants, houses or other tenements within the burgal limits, of the yearly value of 10/., or shall be the true owners of such premises, though not occupying or residing therein, (They must reside within seven miles of the burgh.) " In the course of our inquiries we have found that among the inha bitants of different classes of burghs there prevails a considerable diver sity of opinion as to the justice and expediency of maintaining this uni form qualification. In towns of the first class, containing an extensive and opulent population, it appears to be generally thought that the stan dard is by no means too high„ and that although it may perhaps exclude many respectable persons, yet that it secures an effectual representation of the whole community, and that this main object would not be pro moted by any change. " In seme other towns of a lower class it seems to be thought that the relative value and rent of real property are considerably lower than in the former; and that the apparent uniformity of the elective franchise becomes thus productive of a real inequality in the rank and condition of the electors, which could only be corrected by the adoption in such cases of a reduced scale of value. And again in the smaller burghs of very inconsiderable population or wealth, the still greater extent of this inequality is thought to be aggravated by the difficulty of finding a suffi cient number of qualified electors to form a respectable constituency, and that therefore in this class of burghs another and still lower scale would be required. ~-~.: Mr. O'CONNELL—And with success, Sir IL PEEL—I was myself obliged to abolish the old watch in West minster, and the Noble Lord found the doing away with any distinc tions so necessary that 'its advantages were so obvious in Westminster, he but very lately proposed to make the Metropolitan Police one body, and to place them under one control and superintendence.—(Hear, hear.) The necessity for such a course is most obvious, as it would be otherwise impossible to do away with the conflict of eternal jealousies which must arise. What is found to operate beneficially in Westmins. ter, in London, and in Dublin, must be equally effective when the prin ciple is extended to all Ireland. lithe municipal bodies find it neces. sary to increase the force, let them, as I before said, have the power to do so, paying a certain proportion of the expense ; but of all things I hold it most desirable that the night and day constabulary should be one and the same. I now come to another part of the subject, namely, the administration of justice, and I repeat, what I have always contended for, that I have a right to require every possible guarantee for its due administration. The Bill at present before the Hoots requires that the Corporation should send up to the Lord Lieutenant the names of three candidates for the office of Sheriff; and if the Lord Lieutenant should disapprove of the three names then three others are to be put in nomi nation. Should the Lord Lieutenant, however, object to the whole six then the whole nomination should rest entirely with himself. By the present system in Ireland, Government claimed the right of nomi. nation, and in some instances set aside the recommendation of the Judges. Now I apprehend that it would highly desirable to clear up all doubts on this point in any measure which may hereafter be brought forward. It would be well to ascertain exactly what course would be pursued, and have that distinctly understood. If Government is to exercise an uncontrolled power in the selection of sheriffs let it be distinctly understood that they are to do SO ; or if, on the other hand ,the sheriffs are to be selected by the municipal bodies, let them make the selection subject to their own responsibility, but clear the matter from all possibility of doubt. For my own part, as a check upon local feel. ings and prejudices, I would propose to retain the power of nominating the sheriffs in the hands of the Government. You reverted to the practice which I abolished when you passed by the recommendation of the Judges. I introduced the English system into Ireland. I gave up the power of the Government in the nomination, and required of the Judges to recommend the persons whom they considered best qualified to fill the office. If you thought it right to resume to the Government tne un controlled power cf appointment, even in cases where the recommendas Lions were made on such respectable grounds as that of the judicial, I ask of you to follow out your own principle, thus established, and re serve this power to Government in any Municipal Bill which • you may bring before the House.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If you deprive the Magistracy of the power of appointing the constabulary, and make one superintendent authority to preside over the police, it would be well to apply the principle in the same way to corporate towns, and submit the nomination of the officers to one controlling power. There is another point—l feel lam trespassing upon the patience of the House, but I rather choose to run the risk of being considered tedious than leave the House in any doubt with respect to the views which I entertain upon this question—there is another point, which I consider a matter of no sl'ght importance. I mean that there should be one regular and uni. form system of auditing the corporate accounts in Ireland. There never was a country in which a prompt, clear, and effective mode or auditing the accounts was more requisite.—(Hear.) I do not mein any thing disrespectful to the local authorities, but, from peculiar cir cumstances, a strict and immediate system of auditing is most impe ratively called for. I apprehend that there is no person who will deny this.—(Hear, hear.) Instead of each Corporation settling its accounts at its own time, and at its own will, there should be some responsible Board established in Dublin to see that these matters should be effectu ally performed. There is another point to which, even at the hazard of being considered tedious, I must ;All the attention of the House—l mean the functions of the charity trustees. There is a provision in the Bill that where any existing charities are vested in trustees the trust will continue until Parliament can make other enactments, and empowering the Lord Chancellor to fill up any vacancies which might occur in the interim. It would not be desirable that all these trusts should be vacated in one day, and therefore it would be well that Parliament should apply itself early next session, in case a Municipal Corporation Bill should pass, to place those trusts on some fixed and permanent footing. When these charities are found to be exclusively Protestant, or intended exclusively for Protestant purposes, then I hold that the trusts should be vested in the hands of Members of the Established Church alone.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell.) It might be an advantage if Dublin had an Act passed peculiarly for itself—that is, if a separate Bill, founded upon the "In these views there is no doubt a good deal of plausibility and a cer- principle of the general measure, were framed peculiarly for Dublin. taro degree of truth. But that the evil has not operated to the extent The peculiar position of that city, the complicated nature of the details that seems to be imagined appears to be proved by the unquestionable with respect to its local taxation, the vast number of Boards established. fact that the relative proportion of qualified electors to that of the whole for local purposes, should be subj; etcd to revision, for the purpose of population is not greater in the large than in the smaller burghs, to an reducing the expenses. The local taxation of Dublin is exceedingly amount that seems to indicate the existence of any gross inequality of expensive, and much more than would be requisite for all necessary the kind now alluded to. purposes under a more effective system. This could be done, and yet " If, therefore, upon any other grounds the present fran- the free exercise of all its civic functions might be left to the municipal chise should be deemed objeCtionable, still we should not be body. What I contend for is a revision of the 'various Boards, which disposed to recommend the adoption of a diversity of rates in would be done by a Commission at little expense, and yet a great saving different burghs. Indeed it appears to us that the introduction of any be effected. Whether, however, it be proposed to effect this by diversity of this kind, which, in order to be perfect in theory, must be a Commission or through means of the Corporation, I hope the whole also variable and fluctuating, would prove more arbitrary and incon- will be considered with a view to a reduction of the expense, and plat_ venient in its operation, and more remote from any real equality than ing the whole upon an improved system I.kely to conduce to the general has been attained under the present arrangements. We are further of welfare of the city. So much with respect to the towns contained in opinion that, in the event of any general alteration in the present fran- schedules A and B. I expect that whilst every enactment will be so chise, it must be made on the same basis of property and occupancy on framed as to guard against abuse, they shall also be such as will be calm which the present system has been founded, there being no other cri- lated to conduce to good Government. I endeavour to indicate, in the terion now existing in this part of the United Kingdom, such as the view which I lay before the House, those principles which appear to me• English poor-rates, to which recourse could be readily had." to be fair and just, and, at the same time, such as I think calculated to The Commissioners, therefore, reported strongly :in favour of an soothe the wounded pride of a nation which appears to be excited by equality of franchise. Sir, lam aware that it has been proposed having that withheld teem her which has been granted to England and to make some departure from that uniformity Lin the Bill for the to Scotland.—(Hear.) In the proposition which we formerly made with regulation of Scotch Corporations, now under consideration ; but respect to that, there was no offence intended to be offered to the na_ even that Bill proposed to retain the 10/. franchise in every town tional feeling, and l'should regret that, by withholding these institutions., in Scotland in which the number of 101. householders shall amount I s hould afford any ground of national con-plaint, provided we can have to more than 100. I have now before me a list of the towns in Scotland support and satisfactory security in other respects. If sufficient security in which the number of qualified electors exceeds 100, and in which the be given for the maintenance of the Established Church in Ire -10/. franchise is to be retained, and I find that the proportion, land, it would give me the greatest possible aatisfction to remove with respect to the whole population, is by no means inconsiderable. any ground of complaint with respect to the Irish municipal ques- In Lanark, for instance, the population is 4,300, and the number tien.—(Hear, and cheers from the Opposition.) There was a class of 10/. householders is 156. In Peterhead, with a population of 1,5 1 2, of towns in schedule C upon which it would not be advisable hastily or there are 173. In short, I believe the principle of the present Scotch unnecessarily to force the adoption of municipal bodies ; nor, at the Bill, which is only under consideration, is, as far as I can collect, to same time, to withhold such uelLi a n r s . t ) ittif ise townsi,ohieisiftltey w were•ere dLetmicanlchd n desirable .iei have the 101. franchise in every town whi c h contains above lot) rota- or advantageou s . —(u bitants possessing to that amount of qualification. Now, I must say the list of places in which Corporations were deemed necessary; but the that in towns containing a less number there is very great doubt as to principle of the Bill could be extended to these two towns without the necessity for incurring the expeche of nitiniciPal establishments,— burthening them with the institution. Any corporate property which ..Cvi**!r-r 4 74' 1 ss (Hear, lies -es r.) Therefore, not only in the Report o nem,: se e . but in the. proposed Bill for Scotland, I find conft i t r i C y stegts ".. merit, that the franchise should be uniform and indist t Sir, I should propose that the • franchise be 101., as the BilfWalpfe s s s ; do not conceal th a t I s h a ll have the difference between nominal abet value defined. I propose that the franchise shall be established by the test before mentioned. Then, with regard to residence, I would have six months as necessary for qualification. I would also have it necessary that all taxes and cyst should be paid within three months of the enrol. meat of the vote. That is my proposal, and I believe it is in conformity with the proposition of the Bill. I propose, also, that the reception of relief from the poor rate should be a disqualification. So far as to the franchise, Now on the subject of the boundaries. We before objected to including the rural districts, as we thought it unfair that the inhabitants of the rural districts should be subject to borough rates which were to be applied merely to town purposes, and I was afraid that this might cause some considerable obstacle in detail, but I have now reason to believe that all obstacles in that matter will be removed. I have read the re port of the Commissioners, and I believe it to be framed on a fair princi. ple. I mean the report of 1530, as to the boundaries. I have read the instructions on which the Commissioners acted, and they appear to me to be good, and the report to have been fairly made ; and, as far as I can speak generally, I do not see any ()li, ction to adopting the suggestions as to boundaries prescribed in the last report of the Commissioners of municipal boundaries. I cannot say, either, that I see any objection whatever to the proirsed division of the wards ; as far as I can speck it appears fair in the general principle. Ido not bind myself in every town, but I am ready to adopt, in those towns where corporate establishmetits at present exist, the suggestion contained in the report of the boundary Commissioners, and of course adopted in the Bill. With respect to the titles and constitution of these corporate bodies, I do not quarrel with the Constitution as given in the Bill. I think it is advantageous to follow the principle with respect to the appointment of Town Councillors and Aldermen as given in the Bill, so that here either there will not be much difference of opinion. Now, Sir, I come to the powers of the corporate body. Of course I propose that the corporate property shall be given over to the new corpora tion—(Hear, hear)—but f propose this restriction, to which I appre hend no one will object, that some security be given that such property shall be applied exclusively to the benefit of the town to which it be longs.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, lam seeking means for a satisfactory settlement of this question, and I shall certainly throw no impediment in the way. Sir, there is one question to which I allude, namely, with respect to tolls. Wherever they are security for a debt, or collected as a guarantee for debt, I think they must be retained. My first impression was to propose the absolute abandonment of tolls ; and considering the vexations always attendant on their collection I am greatly inclined to think that their ultimate extinction would be extremely popular.— (Hear, hear.) It is certainly hard that goods and food brought into towns for the use of the inhabitants should be subject to imposts, more vexatious often from the mode of collection than from the actual amount. It is opposed to free trade and the general interests of commerce. At the same time there are individual rights to tolls which I think will re quire a certain degree of caution, as we must take care that, when aban doning the rights of corporate bodies, we are not infringing on those of individuals. I can only state that if Government can see its way to some safe enactment which, without injuring the rights of indivi duals, will provide for the extinction of toll altogether—which must be the most satisfactory arrangement for the country—it shall have my cordial consent. Whether or no it will be safe to deal with corporate tolls separate from the tolls held by individuals I shall not pronounce; that is a matter on which Government can form a more satisfactory opinion ; but I can say that if we could safely sweep away all vexatious regu.lations we should not only be effecting much good for the country, but promoting internal communication, and guy ing facilities to commerce. Now, Sir, with respect to the other powers of the corporate bodies, such as the independent controul of property, I think that this is one of the greatest difficulties in the regulation of mu nicipal corporations. I think the great point will be to entrust the property to the local bodies—to give them such controul as will enable them to effect those improvements which are absolutely neces sary. But there are great obstructions in the way, because, perhaps, from want of confidence in ancient corporations, it has been found ncs. cessary in some cases to establish new systems for the management of the property; but still I for one think that. if you establish corpora tions it would be wise to give them something to do.—(Hear, hear.) To establish corporations and deprive them of all connection with local objects does appear to me to give a temptation to occupy their time in political discussions, and, I would therefore, de_ volve on them the whole property and duty of corporations. Sir, I think we should take every means to confine municipal corporations to their proper objects. I think that the moment they take part in political discussions they are perverting the intention of their establishment. Of course we cannot altogether prevent political discussions; hut I say our primary object ought to be good local government in the towns. I would, in as far as it could be done, give to those bodies controul over municipal objects. I would give to them controul over the lighting of the towns and other local matters. There have been local Acts appoint ing Commissioners for these purposes—a circumstance which may create some difficulty ; but I think it might be avoided by giving in this Act a power to the Commissioners to hand over their functions to the con. porate bodies. In cases where there are no local Acts, where the thing is done under the provis:ons of the 9th of George the Fourth, I think the corporate bodies ought to be compelled at once to take upon them all municipal functions. I have, of course, no objection to give to the new municipal Corporations in Ireland the power of levying borough rates, but then I would have it done on the same principle as it it done in Scotland and England, namely, that they should be levied in equal proportions upon all parties. The municipal bodies ought in all in. stances to undertake to perform the municipal functions. They ought to undertake the application of the burgh rates to the purposes of local ins. provements, and, if the corporate property was not found sufficient for the purposes, they should be called upon to bling an additional as. sessment, as in the cases of England and of Scotland. Now, with re spect to the corporations in relation to the police. It perhaps might be desirable to give to the municipal corporations the controul of those forces; and, where they were not sufficient to perform the duties of the locality, it should be competent to the municipal body to apply to Go vernment for an increase of the general constabulary force, half the ex pense of which should be paid out of the borough rates. I trust that the Noble Lord opposite will make some such proposition, but, if he should not, I shall myself, when the subject is under consideration; pro pose that the whole of the constabulary shall be under the control of the corporation. There is another point with regard to th e p o li ce w hi c h I should also wish to see established, namely, that there should be no dif. ference between the night and day police. The adoption of this plan was found necessary for the city of Westminster.—(" Hear," from Mr. O'Connell.) It had also been applied to Dublin.