The Sun. — London, England, 1810-02-13 00:00:00

!'ik 1 jetled, be,must suppose that Ministers proceeded to send an expedition to the Scheldt without any 'pri vinus communication on the subje&. Lord PoßctiasTErt rase to protest, as one of the Secret ; Committee, against ouch an inference tieing drawn from any motion as that which the Hon: - Gentitman opposite to him (Mr. Yorke) had drawn. Yottxx expilined. • Alter a few observations from Mr. 7 WINDHAM, CIiNCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in explana tion, and Mr: GlLEs;the previous question was put andcaried without a division. CRIMINAL LAWS. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY brought up three Bills for iinprovernetit of the Criminal Laws, which were read a first ti+ne, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next. He then gave notice that he would call the attention of the House to the sub jea of transportation, which he had noticethon Va.; day last, on some intervening day. Hebegged leave correm a iris-staternent Wliich he had made on that day; it was in the proportions of the number of pt:r,,ons found guilty to • those . Who were corn ni:(ted, which were greater than he had - stated ti,Lin,to he. Mr. ftvina brought up certain, Papers relative to the Expedition to the Scheldt, according to the K►ng's order, which were ordered to lie on the table. SINECURE PLACES. Mr. FULLER rose, in pursuance of notice he bad given, to move for leave to bring in - a Bill for the Abolition of Sinecure Places. He observed, that it was impossible for him to do better than to read the words of that great and illustrious man, Lord Chief Justice Hale. He accordingly read an extract from his observations, stating, that 'there were a number of Officers in the Exchequer' ; who did not attend, or if they did, it was to sit• formally in their gowns, without putting their hands to any kind of business. Among these were the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, Chief Clerk of the Pipe, ComptrollerS, and even Auditors, who did nothing. There were a great many men who aded by deputy, and by these means both the King and the People suffered, and were imposed upon. Such were the worcfs - ,of Lord Hale. There was nothing to be found of such matters in the institutes of 'King Al-. fred, aid what was the conseqUence now ?—why the oppression extended even to the West Indies, as th Hinters, who were losing money, were obliged' to pay 2 per cent. port duties, to enrichehose drones, in society, thole sinecure placemen. He declared he was not against the influenceof the Crown, he was willing to see it still increase, because it must be the conseeuenc& of the immense increase of the Reve nue.. ,The attack he made was not upon the influ ence of the. Crown, but upon that avaricious part of the Aristocraci who provide for the younger branches of their fancily, by .putting into their pockets the money of, the country for doing no ,ieg, whatever; and womild be Well repaid for' what ever they do if their pockets were filled with brick Oust. :(A load laugh.) The sum drawn from the very bowels of the public by sinecure placetnen ap peare.d, from the 76th page of the Appendix of the Report of the Finance Committee,. to amormt to 355,0001. Now, in his, opinion, 55,0001. would be sufficient 'to reward all that deserved reward, , and then there would be a saving of 300;000l. a year to the public. He would not take aw,ay. from' the remuneration of an immortal Nelson or the di vine Mr. Pitt —no, he would protect his Majesty by giving him good Ministers; and not had men about his person, sctch as Walpole, who, when he was (lying, turned his : face from his physician, that he might not see the agonies - of a wicked and a -vicious, mind. * He therefore concluded by moving,. " For leave, to bring in a Bill to abolish sinecure places, and to reduce the enormous emoluments arising out of others, after the lives of the present vosseisors. - Mr.'l.l. THORNTON agreed with the object which the Hon. Gentleman had in view, but he wished him to defer it, 'as he considered his motion as pre mature, as the Finance Committee bad the subjed undr consideration. There was a great difficulty ; , he observed,' In enumerating the places that ought to be abolished, and seleEting those that were per formed by deputy. The Hon. Member, he be l'eved, hid otter state() the amount of the rggregaie sum paid to sinecure placeinew, and recommended to him to , defer bringing in his Bill to a future day. The Hon. Mr: 8V0(n said he woald vote for the motion, but at the same time declared, it did not appear to him in that point of view so often repre sent;d by others. He had no share in vulgar pre ju&lices, but as to the crown having the right of granting pensions, as adding to its influence, was certainly, with many, a' doubtful point. Thirty years ago it - was resolved by that House that the in tiu-nee of' the Crown had increased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished ; and what was it now ? it perva , led every part of the Country ; none were SO rich, 'or-so powerful, or so insulated, as not to be exposed to -n; either themselves, or in their con . neetion.Q. No one was mote attached to their Mo narch than himself, but that very attachment 'in him in his .vote He 'wished to diminish the influence of the Crown, lest it should extin,' guish the other parts of the Constitution, or be it self extiuguisited. He wished to, prevent its over. growth, that he might fix.it on a firmer, broader, I , d securer basis. • 'There were two sorts of reform ; ,a.reinvin in 'tire great. departmervs of State, and a refmn in oiir method of conduCting the wari It would be in vain to teach the people any other.— That was the- use of being economical, if. the Irons of their economy were to be wasted in dis ; gracelnl and Calamitous expeditions to Walcheren aid Spain ? Was there not more expended last summer than would buy the, fce simple of all the sinecures.in the King's gift. There was not, he was sure, ady thing more expensive than an obstinate, 'weak, and projeAing Ministry ; and he would tell the Hon. Mover, that one vote given against tho,se whom he supports, would by of more real service than the bi propoed `The CHANCELLOjt of the EXCHEQUER Said, he rose to say a few words in ennsequence . of what had laiien (ruin the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat dawn, who had taken an opportunity of making v veral observations which had not the slightest con, neliion with the subject before the House. He cer tainly did not expect, upon a motion for the . aboli tion §itiecureplaces i to be called upon to enter into e,tigation 'of the policy of the Expedition to of Scheldt, or of the merits of the Campaign in §.O and 1'9 141 / I :gai• 41.4 the4o there points which in' ariably formed parts of the speeches of the Hon. Geetlemen - opposite. tp him; whatever might be the real subject before, the Honse. The reason was ob vious—they disliked the - present Ministers, and wished to'reinove them ;—.l..it they also wished at the same time to succeed to their places. This' was the reason why the Hon. Gentlemen were indifferent about motions efdomestic ecunomy,or partial reform " These," said they, " are trifling and ineffectual measures; but if you want real, economy, if you want efficient teforme if you want a cost vigorous and able administration, if you the co•csuiti e mation'of political wisdom, if you want a constella tiOn of, talent, make us Ministers, and your object is accomplished." Ailing upen these principles , , and influenced by these views, they had toll the Hon. Gentleman who brought forward this motion, that he had not pursued 6 right cause,—that instead of bringing a motion for the abolitioieof sinecures, he ought to join their phalanx, and endeavour to place them at , the helm, and - then every thing would be right—every thing_ would -be prosperous. The Hon. Gentleman who 'spoke last had said, that his • objed was to diminish the power of the Crown, and that the present Ministers remained in office by the influence of the Crown. This was a most sin gular proposition • to come from that side of the House; it was strange to hear them talking about the present Ministers being supported by the patro nage of the Crown, and the disposal of sinecure Offices ; Did not that Hon. Gentleman know; did not every Man in the House know, that there were persons of the same party - -with the_Hor. Gentle men opposite to him, who 'possessed a larger, a much larger proportion of such- places than those who were in 'his Majesty's Government ? When such was the fad, and he challenged any "one to deny 'it, was it fair, was it just, was it honest, 'to attempt to mislead the public with such assertions as he had alluded to ? With resped to the motion, he could not agree with it : no pra&ical man could seriously adopt it. -If the H on . 'Gentleman who had spokelast had,loeked at the motion with any other view but as a subjed of-declamatien, he never would have' supported it. It must be quite obvious to every one who'conaider e d this subject maturely, and who had attended, to the Reports of the Com mittees, that there %vete numerous shades and ds tinetions in these offices, which rendered it Mapes, sib* to proceed with such a sweeping general mea sure as the ,present,- •It had been admitted by all sides, that if these places were abolished, some substitute must be provided in their room. If that were the case, it would be worth Gentlemen's while to consider whether it would. not be better to leave things as they are, than to abolish all theSe places at once. With reaped to the allusion wh:ch 'had been made to the famous resolution of Mr. Dun ning, that the influence of the Crown had increased, was increasing, and ought •to be diminished, he begged to say that he utterly denied the. assertion of the 'Hon. Gent. that the influence of the Crown had' increased since that time. Since that. time all •Mr. Btirke's Pins 'Of Reform, and all Mr. Pitt's 'plans, which wore much - more extensive, had been adopted: It - was said:that the influence of the Crown had increased with •the .increased expendi ture ; but there was a general increase' of wealth in' the- country, which more than counterbalanced the increasing influenceof the Crown. The weight of the People in the Government, from their wealth, from their information, from their intelligence, and frOm a variety of other• causes, had kncreased. te . a - much greater degree than the influence of the Croen since the period of Mr. Dunning's „Resolu tions. The Hon. Gentleman_ had talked about the "expence of nefortunate Expeditions •being much greater than that of sinecure places. No man could deny that the -expence cif a war was much greater than Via' of such establishments as these, and that Expadi.ions-, -whether fortunate or unfOr innate, cost more money than a few sinecure - offices; but that wasenot the time to discuss the merits of Expeditions. These were points which . must be discussed upon their own _separate grounds.- They could not form any part of such a, question as they were then debating. With respe& to the proposed Bill, he certainly did think it was premature, and therefore he could not consent to it. Mr. LAMB thought sinecures a very great detri ment. When public service required, they were not vacant to reward it; and although in reading over the list many names might be recognised which were closely conceded with some signal -public ser vice, yet many would be met which could not haVe gained admission there without Ministerial influ ence ; he vished their abolition, therefore, that that notion might no longer "exist on the public mind. Mr. CaiseveY begged leave ta ask the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor Of the Eiche," quer) whether the increase of our Colonies did not add to the influence Of the Crowd, whether the-di vision of India with the Directers was nothing, whether the Admiralty Droits were nothing.? They amounted to eight millions;_ two only of which were applied to. the public service,•besidea a large .snm which was 'given' to a Member of that House: Was. it nothing to. have - brought the 'Bank of England to the foot of the throne? Nothing to have the whole commercial interests of the' kingdom dependant on the Crown ? Was it not owing to this enormous influence that such a Government as the present could exist ? , Was it to be endue - el 'that the City of London should be taunted? Their* petitions were received and an swered at the end'of the American war; now they -could not be received. Sinecures were now so in creised, that even the subordinate Officers of the Cron possessed, their. He did not like putting them in this way out of the 'reach of the House of CoMmons. If one df those Gentlemen now were caught tripping, why he would retire on his sine cure and laugh in their faces. After aefew more ob servations, Mr. Creevey cOncluded by voting for the [notion. • • Mr. R. S. DUNDAS adverting to•the observations ,made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, on the offer of a peerage by _the Crown to -Lord Melville, de clared that •he did not consider that Hon. Gentleman a fit judge of the propriety of the over. He ap.: pealed to the country whether an individual w ho had so eminently served the public, ought to be spoken of in the language used by that Him. Gen, tleman, and in which he trusted there were but feW disposed to cunctir with him. Justice - did not al low tharthe charaaer of any one who had been cleared by the tribunal before Whom he had been brought for trial, should be thus wantonly and un fairly Traduced. Lord A. rims .anxious that such a propo sition as that before the House should not be ne gatived from an• inaccuracy in its cons:ruction, re connnended to the Hon. Mover to withdraw it in preference. _ _ _ - Mr. BANKS said, that if the Hon. 11 , 1einber was sincere in his intentions, which he did think he IV S Mr. Fut.t.ta called to order, and appealed ta the Speaker whether it was allowable that the sincerity of one Han. Member should be questioned by.. another. Tile Speaker observed that the Hon. Gentleman was iolalty mistaken; Mr. 'BAN KES repeated, that so far from doubting the Hon. Gentleman's sincerity, he had expressed his conviction of it.—(Mr. Fuller' begged pardon.) —But the more he believed that. Hon. Gentleman to be sincere, the more desirous he was that he would not press the present motion. At ail times, and More especially in times of such pressure as.the present, the reduction •of the number of sinecure places, and of the emoluments of- those oili es which resembled sines Tres in their character, was a consideration of great public utility ; but it was lit terly impracticable to obtain the desired end by the means proposed by the Hon. Gent. The first thing to be done was to adopt some distinct resolution de claratory of the principle upon which the House in tended to proceed itf.this business. It had been said that if sinecures were abolished, . Other 'modes must be resorted to equally burthensome to the Public, in order, to reward meritorious public ser vices. This was oely partially true. It frequently happened that a sinecure became .vacaot, when no immediate public - service was 10 be rewarded.-- It was then bestowed to- increase Ministerial influ ence. It frequently happened, tooe that when a public service was to be immediately rewar,led, no sinecure place was vacant ; the consequence Was, the increase of the burthens of the country, by the granting of a pension. An instance of the latter was the pension recommended to be granted to Lord Wel lington, than whom, at the same time, he must say, no man l was mon; worthy of public gratitude. On the one timid, it did not follow because a declaration had been made thirty years ago, that the influence of tire Crown ought to be diminished, that such a declara tion should be considered a vital and per manent prin ciple.of the Constitution. On the other hand it did not folloW; because considerable reductions had, at various periods, been made in that influence,that it had theretore beep sufficiently reduCed. The tact was, that notwithstanding the great reduffions that had been made - in the influence the Crown in conse quence of Mr. Burke's and Mr. Pitt's measures for that purpose, the prodigious increase of revenue and the enlargement of the public establishments had much more than counteracted those reduaions. The CHANCELLOR Of the Excn ;muEtt explained, and- Mr. Fuller . apulogised•for having interrupted Mr. Banes. Mr. WHITBREAD recommended t he Honourable Mover to withdraw his proposition, for which, how ever, it he should persevere in pressing it, he would unquestionably vote. A.dVerting to the subject of sinecures he stated an instance in which a sinecure of * importance was vacant when the country was called upon to reward one of the greatest services ever rendered to it. That sinccore, however, was not made -the reward as it ought to. have bren. The case he al luded to was that of Lord Nelson. Soon after that Gallant Hero fell in the arms of victory, or at least be fore the grant of a pension. to his successor was made out, the Wardenship of the Cinque Ports became va cant, than _which nothing could ,be conceived as a more:appropriate reward ter a naval service. Instead, however, of its being so given, it was presented to the Earl of Liverpool, and the nation Were compelled to provide in another mode (which they certainly did with a grateful feeling) for the family of t! e gallant hero. .This. was an instance among an hundred. In a few days the public would have an oppertu nity of seeing how another important sinecure was to be bestowed. The Right Hononrabie Gentle man opposite had. declared, that his political ad versaries in that House were 'envious of his situa tion. For his part, he knew no situation so little-to 'be envied. The Right Honourable Gentleman was what he was,only because nobody else would be what he was. The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman near him was a Secretary of State, only because the Hon. Gentleman next him would not be Secretary of State ; and the Noble Lord at the end of . the Bench held the situation which he oecuoied,, only because noboby- else would take it. If he and his lytends wished to get rid of the present, Administration," it was because they wished to get rid of impotence—it was because they wish-. ed to get rid of intolerance—it was because they ,b igoted spirit, to get rid of that meddling and bigoted spirit, which, it it were not' checked, would set not only this country, but all its colonies in flames. For his part he was no candidate for office, but as the friend to his country he wished to get rid of the Right lion„ Gentlemen opposite; let who would be their successors. Alluding to a recent occurrence in which a Member of that House had been accused of a breach of Parliament, he express ed his hope that that person would not be 'allowed to accept a nominal place for the purpose of with drawing from Parliament, and in that case, should he be fourid guilty, of eluding the heaviest punish , - mem the House could Mr. FULLER declared his readine , s to withdraw his motion, provided any one would give a distinct pledge that he would at a fixed period bring the sub jea before Parliament; otherwise he was deter- Mined to persevere if he went on alone on the question: It was a subjea that did not - admit of delay. He was equally adverse to the °pillions of the Hon. Baronet, who;. on a recent occasion, had called the House of Commonsa room ; and to those of that - great genius who had declared that the existence of party was necessary to the welfare of the country.. Party ! Mr.'Speaker, exclaimed Mr. Fuller, in a tnne of peculiar animation, patty, Sir ! I should like to know whether the great men of antiquity were party-men—was Cicero a party-man ? (a laugh)--Were the Scipios party-men ?—(a loud laugh)- 7 -The only party they had was their country. With respeel,to the Gentleman to whom the last • speaker had alluded, he had an opportunity of knotto ing' that his, owo reflections had punished him suf ficientiy. .14NE.Es undertook to bring the sub . e4 be. fore rh'3 }louse in another form, and when pressed by Mr. Fuller:to state the time, ha replied that be would do so .on, the discussion of the resolutioni , which stood fot 'Thursday next. The motion was then. wlthdraWn. - " EPPEDITION TO THE SCHELDT. Mr. PONSONBY observed, that he understood his Noble Friend near _him (Lord Porchester) had re ceived a request from alloble Lard deeply interested in the inquiry before the House. (Lord Castlereagh), not to proceed with the Inquiry that night, in con sequence of the death of a near relation (his Lord -ship's sister), which had wholly incapacitated him Freon attending in his place: He hoped the general feeling of the House would induce them to comply with the request of the Noble Lord, who had.added that he would be ready to attend on Thursday. He Wasidesirous. therefore, that the discussion of his Hon. Friend'S . resolutions which stood for Thursday, should be postponed, in order that no delay might taka_place in the Inquiry into the Walcheren Expe ,dition, - and he would propose that day fortnight for the discussion'of the Resolutions, by which perind . the Inquiry would probably be closed . . Mr. FREDERICK 'ROBINSON observed, ' that - his Noble Friend (Lord , Castlereagh), in consequence of a severe and unexpe&ed 'domestic calamity, was wholly incapacitated from attending his duty in that House. When his Noble Friend communicated 10 him the distressing circumstance he (Mr. Robinson) offered to state the feet to the House, and to leave them to determine on the propriety of poStponing the Inquiry. In this offer his Noble Friend acqui esced, but desired it Might be clearly understood that 'he had no claim on the 'Tomato do any think for his personal accommodation. The part which his Noble Friend had taken through the whole of the business 'sufficiently evinced his disposition not Co retard 6r embarrass the Inquiry. It would, per• haps, be but fair, therefore, foc the House to con sent to a moderate delay. His Noble Friend had declared his intention, if possible, of coining down to the House. on Thursday. Should he not be able to do SO, he was sure that his Noble Friend would not wish for any further interruption of-the proceed ings. Lord PoRduESTEIi expressed his perfeEt readiness to acquiesce in the postponement of further proceed» ings until Thursday. He was desirous, hgwever, that the House should go into a Committee to-night, merely to enable an Hon. Naval Officer' to lay on the table certain_ Memoranda, in order- that 'they might be printed. . Lord PAL M E r.TO NE preSented a Return of the C 9. sualties iii the Army lately employed in the Expedi. Lion to the Seheldt.—Ordered Co lie on the Table. His Lordship also presented the Army Estimates fur the year, and gave notice that he would move them in the Committee of supply . on Monday next.—The Estimate's were ordsfred to be printed. - Mr. CRoluut presented Copies of the Oaths adm ministered in Naval Courts Mariial.—Ordered to lie on the Table. _ . ' The House then tesolired inself - into a Commit tee of Inquiry into the, policy' and conduct of, the expedition to the ,4chehit, Mr. klobhouse in the Chair. Lord PoitcEtEsTEa wished to ask an Honourable ) 'RA - OmA whetLer he had brought with 'him the me- , morauda which-he had altuded to in- his last exami nation ? Sir liontE POPHAM replied ilia he had. Lord PORCO ESTER then requesred him to be so good as to produce them, them, }thick he accord ingly did. . . . , " A discussion ensued between Mr., Croker, Mr. Tierney, Lord Dorchester, and Sir Home Popham" respecting a conversation t:tween Sir Home Pop' ham and the First Lord of the Admiralty, in the midst ot which Mr. Yorke moved the standing order for the excursion of strangers. • The Gallety was then cleared, but as we under stood,: nothing further was done than putting some questions to Sir Home Popham respecting the in struqions Which had tieen given to him; and then• the further examination of witnesses was postponed till Thursday, to' which day -the, CQtnmittee was postponed,=—The . House then adjourAed at half-past nine o'clock, 'till to-morrow. MAILS. • Aaary ro—t Waterford. vue—s Gottenburgll, t 2 Waterford. PRICE OF .STOCKS THIS DAY AT TWELVE O'CLOCK. Consols 67 63 'l'U E S Ii N. SOL.EO4 , QUIS DICIRZ FALSOM AUDEAT ? LONDON, - - - -~--- TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 1810. The following is the French account of the Ac tion beteen our frigate the Junon and the French frigates : Extiad froM the Report of the Captain of the frigate, Roque •-bert, commanding his Majesty's frigate RenOmmie, to the Minister of ,'Marine : O n the t3th of DeCember, the frigate, La‘ Ro-.1 , nornmee , undei my command, .and La Clorinde, Capt. St. CRICQ., being with the transports, under , our convoy, in lat. 17. 6.1 T. and 62 W. we de. scried at half-past twelve, p. m. a large frigate and 3 brio . , enemy's vessels, to wi t :a war d. . b '. " By manceuvring on both sides we came about half-past five within gun-shot. " Shortly after, having, closed within nearly pis. tol-shot, the Clorinde and Renomm de opened their fire upOn the enemy's frigate, which presented her starboard side to rne. " This very destruOive discharge,' however, the enemy answered by but an, ill direied fire, i ind shortly he valiantly attempted to tack and pass un der the 'stern of La Retionimee. I succeeded in avoiding this'-attempt,, to - rlke me, and gave him a broacl-side point blank, Capt. ST.' ChICQ, La Clo rinde, who.was,to windward, immediately .lufted,op and fell aboard her on one side, while I fell award on the other. ed for (0 d o ketry With the er sbortl l'or 1 . - 111 C , 1'.e lea ped La 0 Whof tettin i btrep lir r to" S i, 4 0 0 n 41. 3 17 tt'o u ~ •Doti Amos down this a Pect I Elou s 1 0r p i UOlll my tot a 13 the no p z §he tScap ~itl~ 141 pc to hi alien Lieu the I ~lt`Vs: ~~Je tht tat 1 0\ be for rio an fr c thi th wt 114 ,~ _•'l~+ +,