The Sun. — London, England, 1810-03-29 00:00:00

r „ . cress I; rim time to time to the HouSee ,To Corren'etee'he thought the sithjea might liave been retierfd. He did not ask whether Or ildt; 'this Ind been the pratlice of the House . rot' :Monte time past, nothing could fairly, be argued +brie' that. discussion of a qttes , ion important as that which then occupied the attention of the House ought not to be unnecessarily interrupted, and the Member bringing forward such a motion es that which was . then before . the House ought. to assiere some very substantial - reason 'for bring ing it forward at .. such a juneiuree ought 'to , shew that some great mischief was likely to arise from its not being; itritnediately disetissed. When such a complaint was made, it should be referred to the Committee of. Privileges. It Was nothing . to -tell him this was not the usual praelice ofetilialHouse ou'such occasions. He found an order teithateeffea, and that waesuffecient to bear him out in tiliat he had edvariced. There was an instance of -this, mode being adopted, as would be seen from :their' pro ceedings in 1779.' 'The person then complained of was not, it was trnee as in the present instance, a Member, but that . veiy circumstance -- rendered his argument the stronger, and established more firmly - the propriety of referring the complaint thee before them to a Committee of Privileges. In 1779 a. person being accused of having written a pamphlet, containing libelions matter, and gross misrepresenta tions of what passed in that House, the subjeCt was referred to the Committee of Privileges, who were instructed from time to time . to report their opinion on the same. The light Hon. Gentle m in concluded by . Ina , iug, that the alleged breach of privileges should be referred to the . Committee of Privileges. The Sreexia explained the nature of the Stand ing - Order, and stated' it to be the praelice of the Heu-e, when any thing was to be reterred to the Committee of Privileges, to Older that Conimittee to sit on .a certain day. The motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman was irregular', a motion -being ahead)? -before the House.. He might, however, opose - am amendment, which e byleaving out the worde expressing an opinion on the. paper before them, and inserting those of his motion, would be similar in effea. Mr. SFIERIDAI4, from the nature of the Standing Order 'in question, was not aware of any hnpro priety in making such a motion, hOwever, had-erete objeetion to pursue the course pointed out by the Speaker. • Attcr some further conversation as to form, &c: the amendment suggested , by the Speaker and adopted by Mr. Sheridan was about to; be when, while the Right Hon. Geutteman'WW - diaating the wordseif it— Mr. Aneer woke to . order. He objet' ed to the. amendment, and instanced The conduct of the liouse in 1701, when it went into a Committee of the whrsle House on the matter of a - letter written by Mr. Culpepper. He thought it would be an awk ward-way to tike out that part of the motion re lating to the nature of the Paper, and that his Right Hen: Friend had 'best withdraw his amendment, as another Hon. Friend of his intended to - mOve - an adjeurnmene of the subject for such 'a period, that the Committee of the Privileges might sit before its. expiration. He had reasons for wishing this line of conduct pursued, which, should a debate arise on the subject lie would give to the House. • TheSeemein thought it incumbent on him to state the question to the House. He, eceordingly, read the original -question. , BitANii • was or opinion, that if the Hon. Member , who brought, forward the motion Alai.' been aware of the interruption it had giveelto the important question before the House,elte would not have caused' such a citie4tion. to be.egiteted at such a time, as no immediate danger cOuld - be apprehend ed frOm the _motion tieing deferred . ... while real dan gers arose from the attention of the being Called off from that . sbbjea which had/leeipg pre viously efierossed: Every question T - respecting the rights, the privileges, and the security q f the sub jeel, he thought of more importance than '2O failures at Walchetene—than twenty times the' disgrace so incurred. The consideration of so-great a point is how far the poWer of that House could lieexerted, every one must admit to be of great importance, as to whether that question should or should not be im mediately brought before the House, a difference of opinion might exist. He did not itetend enter ,ing on the great question where the limits of their 'privileges were to be placed or toe eletiii a how far - they should extend. He would net take upon himself to say' how far the paPerleequeetien was a libel. He must say that to someof,eheperte point ed out by the Hon. Member he copld,ateech no po- Sitive censure, but they appeared to hie) to involve questions of great ddubte on which the ought not rashly to decide. He did not hesitate, to say, that from: aH the knowledge and infutnit tion he had gained on the subject, there Was one eart of that paler (the leSt pact) which, raider evevy clefittitien, Must he thought appeer to be, a ,bre.,l4 of their pri- VileW:se Ile should, therefore, under eeertain modi fications, be ready to vote with the Hole. Gentleman on that subjeCt. He had been all the the morning ' reading the works of that celebrated . lawyer Har grave, in order to make himself ful!iy acquainted with the, subject, but he wished, for tithe to consult. all the authorities proper to be, consulted on such a rpiestion. Lord Chief Justice Hale hod said, that no Vase'should be agitated in thaelloust; which was remediable at law. Was not that: on 'Which they had taken upoe themselves to deciele,te4necliable at law? Nay, had not such a remedy b4:eepSObght.in a similar instance He would pot elisseet ' , f.te 1-louse 'sit h an affectation of learning which ht did not possess, bueit wee his, opinion that one yielation of their privileges was chargeable to the I - ion. Bart. and that die other passages of .his I.:tter ouelit to bp deliberately coneidere& before they came to a deci sion on the subjea. One greet qeestion it ;involved was; how feet' Member of that klonee.bad a right to report to his Constituents wh4 he had uttered within those walls. Many of the points contained, in that Paper had been, expressed, nay, had even. been enlarged upon, and supportedley other Mem bers,. If he had a right.to givpelie I,4s,ioristituents what he had stated there, and laicll44aywo : to be good constitutional doeleiee, then in the r e, Rmencement .of his letter he had not . gone too,7far- in the following. • earaeraph Critic men—The House of Commons having passed a , •,. which amounts to a declaration, that an Order of theirs !,, more weight thari 1114,11 a Charti and the laws of. I think it in) duty to lay my sentiments thereon .;:.y COnstituents, whose chara‘icr as freemen, and even whose personal ssfeiy depcnl it a Brest degree upon tire de c ision of this question- a question of bo less intp,irtanc:e than this, whether our liberty be still to be secured t,y the laws of our fOrdathers, or be to lay at the'ahsolute mercy of; a part of our fellow iutijeas; collected to g ether by means which it is not necessary, for me to describe r' If. he bad a right to convey to his constituents all he had stated in that House, in thus adverting to what he had openly complained of, and what bad been admitted on the other side' of the House, and derended - on the - ground of its universality,' it . was abstinence - arid moderation- in the Hen. Biroilet say, no more: ; to refrain fiom sating in whit man ner the Members•of that House were colleted' to gether,that what he had so often __openly attacked , in that House, when thus moderately urged, sheuld , be regarded as a violation of their privileges, was to him a matter of surprize. He would not pi through the whole of 'the passages voluted out by the Hon. Member, but he would say that there Were no points in them which had not been expressed in a stronger 'manner before m Wilt', these walls, except the last, where he :speaks of their high-blown. notions of power ' " &c . Whether or not he, as .a Member of that House; had a right to publish to his constituents what he had stated in that Hoti.e, was a question which he was not prepared to decide upon. The only view he :took 'of the subjea was, that they had a right to desire time to make the pro= per inquiries; that they might come to a proper, calm, and dignified decision. Having thus briefly stated the grounds on which•he iwended mat=ing ass 'adjournment of the debate for a given time, he would ask the ' Hon, Gentleman opposite. to giant time. If he persisted io opposing this, t ',ere would .not be a man Who Would not be of opinion (and he for one had - no hesitation -in stating that • such would be - his. belief) that he had caught .at this 'subjea, and' was glad of; the opportunity of giving such an interruption to the grand question, in the hope of dividing the atten tion of an inquiring House and an indignant-coun. try. ,When the Right Hon.. Gentleman reconsider ed his condu&, be doubted not but he' was sorra, he had come forward ; he' therefore hoped he would' give no farther opposition, sat iStied as lie was that if he persevered he would have reason to regret pressing his motion. The Hon. Gentleman concluded; Moving - that the' debate be adjotirned till to-morrow (Thursday) se'nnight. • Mr. LeTnertinot could not agree to the adjourn ment. Precipitancy' was not his wish ' • but hav- . ing placed himself 'in the hands of the Hotise, he could not now recede or retrad. Besides be could not consent, because the How. GentleMau-Almself had supplied him with arguments for his perieve-, ranee-now which did not occur before ihe himself had just stated, that the present question, which in volved:the constitutional rights and privilegeS of the' Housecwas of more importance than twenty failing expeditions. Therefore he. had a right -now to think that it ought to have precedence of any . other sub jett, and consequently heshould not accede to any kind of delay. He should not follow the Hon. Gen tleman throughout the whole. of Ina• remarks, bUt content hirn,elf with denying. the accesation made by the Hen. Gentleman that he had lent himself, to any matior set of men—no ;he solemnly declar ed he bad not lent himself to any man, or set of men, or to any party. If be. had, lent him, self •lie should regret it to the last hour of his life. He was not controuled by any man in thiS question ; the subject originated with himself, and from himself alone. Mr. CURWEN was of opinion that this was a most important moment; he asked the Hon.. Gentle man if he was not aware of the fatal consequences of precipitancy: As to the rights of the House, he ac knowledged their pre-eminence ; but he tat .it to the . Hoti. Gentleman, 'Willis did not arise !rom- per sonal feeling, if it could not be compared to the drowning man, ready to catch at every straw . fur ,safety ? If ihe Paper in question passed over unno ticed by the House for t oor three days,- it would have sunk for ever into oblivion. Never did a qties lion require More temper or more consideration than the present, and he conjured the Hon-IGentle- Man to pau , e, and give some opportunity for farther investigation. He thought the Hon: Baronet: 'in some measure reprehensible, .and lie ;trusted_ the House would evince its determination to decide * e s _ passionately.ln the case of Wilkes,'the Journals Were disgraced, but the occurrence was fortunately eXpunged ; he hoped that they might never again be polluted by such records. Let every opinion be formed without interest ; for his part- he. trusted. he should never feel its effeds, and that vote would be "devoid . of every feeling of that vture, Mr. Ow.at hoped that the House-would punish the offence which had beep - committed against its dignity; he was -astonished at the amendment, and the doarines contained in it, but- he was surprised that . the .HOn. Gentleman, 'whose . constitutional knowledge Was so great, should intimate'e doubt: of its emergency. The question now was, Whether the Hobe of CominOns should maintain its dignity, as art independent legislative body,.or sutler itself to be beat - down, and tamely view princ;ples the most - pernicious -instilled into, the'minds of the people.— Thereasons adduced were extraordruary ; could it . be supposed that a consideration which Would oceu. py but a few hours could put from the recollealen of the Ho:lSe the, whole mass of evidence which, had been collecting for months ? Is it necessary to go in, to' a Committee to decide whether a do trine which tends to biass the minds of- the peopieshould be suppreAed ? Shall arguments be suffered to goforth froM the- - House of Commons which dared not be uttered here ? The .Honourable Gentleman con cluded by referring to another passage which he considered as grossly libellous, , namely, " the CorUthotis itav .assented the sword of prerogative, and lord it . equally over King and People,"' Sze. "On these grounds, the House should diseharge iisdutv, and on those he was induced to support the original monion. Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that he never rose. to speak on a question which he considered of'greater. importance. It was. one in, which Gentleman opposite was mainly concerned, as it was, but an attempt to defer the inquiry into his miscon dna. When, said he, the Right Hon. Spencer Per ceval and Lord Castlereagh were charged. with a breach of privilege, the Right Honourable Gentle, men, on being called upon for a justification of Caeir condud, were allowed five days,for preparation af ter t he:charge had been agitated; and to the case tif the charge made against Lord Castlereagh, for at tempting to barter seats in that House, an amend- ment was made by the Secretary of State, for , . ins his Lordship a 'inn - icier - it tittle to prepeee hie defence. Looking at this fu&, and coupling it Iwith the Acts of 1779, he would ask to whom were I to he attributed the; attempts to degtade the "Reese tof Commons. It would also be recolithed; that at time' la,:gming of the present Administration, the House was threatened. with a dissolution, if they dui not adopt certain measures proposed to them by the present- Ministers, and a dissolution shortiy after took place. He had not bad e time to inquire into the nature of the present que,tiou ; since half-past two this indr-ning, the time of aajournment, he was occupied in considering the- many arguments, and fellowing through an imaginary compete') the Hen. General who Lest night voted for the cotiduil ot-Mi tlistqs. He aberefore had nut time to give the ar gument an attenlive perusal. In several. points he was surprised, fir he expeeted those who svereeli e gaged in that famous eXpeditiOn.Would have called en' mountains to cover - them, and seas to overv. helm them, to shield [hens from time scrutiny of the people. He only asked for that opportunity Which be rea queated last night, when the debate was postponed . to that day. He had not time since: to read "the papers, much less had he time to weigh, with due dAberation their contents. Was -he then to - rest upon the quotations of Members however honour able, or was he to divide upon a subject of which he had nor time to look at the -text, or study the Context ? Tire I-ion. Gentleman who had laid the charge, did not seem to have the least objection to' delay the: consaleration of the subject for four and twenty hours. Why -not, then, adiourri the discus sion fur a longer period. The Hoiroprable then had said that he did not lend himself •to the. party one that siee of the HouSe. If he did- not lend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken advantage of his facility. It was a sort of God-send, and fully exemplified the observations • *hid' had been made, of the catching straws like - a drowning man. Many things; however, - happen ed between the cup and the lip,—a great many, thinga occurred between the halter and the gallows. " The Hon. Gentlemen need not .be alarmed," said Mr. 'Whitbread, " I do not mean to say they . will be beheaded, nor do I mean to apply the simile, Of the halter to them. - I simply meant -to insinuate that events often happen even to save the thief from the gallows, or to prevent the completion of an ad When most certain.--This was verified by an oc e ,currence Which'toole place during the retreat of the army in Spain, when a soldier, for some heinous :offence, was tried, and Coed e mned to be shot ; but at the moment i the sentence was about to be carried into eftea, the enernyarrived, rescued turn from his perilous situation, gave him a horse, amid he escaped." The Honourable Gentleman who spoke on the pree ceding esening on this topic, m talking of. the. : House of Commons being lowered in the estima tion of the people. of• England, and expressing his leers that delay . wbuld probably endanger the safety of the Constitution, reminded him, he was going to say, of the late Mr. Yorke, now most 'happily promided for. This was one of the-lega cies left the 'House by the Teller of the Exche quer; from whom the House was so properly. re lieved, and who, was now made.a man of come-. quence, not by right, for that would be useless, but by favour. An individual had been Weight . " to -the Bar of the House forean offence in itself slight, who there apologised with the most unfeignedcoutrition, yet notwithstanding was- sent . to Newgete; he thought that he ought to have been d scharge.d : now, step. by step, •he has become quite a great man, eed of importance in the eyes of the world. -One thing he begged leave to advert to; the Hon. Member bad mentioned, that em hen he reae the argument and letter his hair stood an end. He hoped. the Hen Member would on- similar occasions endeavour to Coiled 'himself. He recollected that during a debate -On double-barrelled • guns he sat dumb the whole time; but he hoped the Honourable Member, when his „flesh had ceased to ere - 4N Would exert his philosophy. He asked the - bench of Lawyers which sat sat before him, whether it was consistent with the laws of evidence lit Courts of Law, that a 'decision be made without giving' the: Court time to weigh the ,faCts of.--the For his own part, .the Hon. Mertaberoweee . teue al though he had, as lie thought, on several trying oc casions manifested his political independence, yet he did not - feel bold enough, he did not possess sut.... ficient political courage, to come to a resolution on a question of that importance,. without further cone aideration. He had -heard a speech of .the gene Earonet on that question, and he would .not say that it had made no impression on him, for fivers hie knOWIS talents .it was impossible,. but it - bad. not convinced- him. . He had found nothing repre hensible in that' speech, yet he . had found fault with the Honourable Baronet, met for the senti tnents contained in his speech, but for having use-. - lessly thrown them away .without deducing from them, any specific proposition ; • he had also found faulat with him for publishing that speech in like menner, without advancing one step towards the °hie& he had in view. But whets the House was Called upon to pronounce, on a charge of guilt, o•Pallalhiag more than eXpiessions was necessary, and they could not conscientioesly proceed with out a thorough conviction, to obtain which a suffi cient time was necess try. In this case be would naturally judge of others by himself ; he could not attend to two things at a time, and although he had no professional duties to attend, it was not till four o'clock this day. that. he could find time to read the . letter which- had given rise to so many animadver sions ; anti ehen certainly not with sufficient attention to, be able to judge how far they were well founded. Seeing himself, however, pressed by Gentlemen on the other side, he stuck . to - the old tack ;he had can . - vested as many of his old friends as he could, men with whom he had gone through many a poli tical campaign,' and in this he had followed the example of an Honourable and Gallaut General (Crawford)', who had 'thought of an amendment to lover the retreat of a friend. He had read the • Letter to the. EleCtors of Westminster, and he had seen nothing in it abet might not have been, with propriety, addressed to them, or to any other body of Englishmen. Sinde that, many things had been' introduced in argument, Many interpretatitm bad been given which had never occurred to him,; and many Passagei had been seleated, which he ne ver had noticed before. These passages, indeed, had ben read; but it was utterly impossible to form an Opismion, without reading them, any more than , once, end attentively in the closet, without cornpars .. • , . Me , theM with the whole texture (It the pracht6lion. Tins reqi,sited . time; and time should be alloWed.--- , `Nothieg, the Hon. Gent: aVeried, wbuld ever make hint pronouriCe Guilty or not Guilty, . till hiS Mind *. Was CoMpletAy made up on the subjed ; and if rila settateli;driVen topronounce, while in a :tate of 'am -, .‘ - pelise,klite would not hesitate to follow the di6lates of eternal justice,. and of British equity, by voting for the -acquittal; , And•here the H - On - Aifent. - aprnieno-' other :Members of 4hat House, wh6were, no.doubt, , in the same situation,wlsose tnite-is were not an'l wouldi not -be possibly, made up on the subject,..if a furtlie,s' time was not PeeeSSAry to CMIIO to a conscientious .vote. Alter all, what. possible detriment,' he would' * - 'ask, Could arise frem- the proposed delay; bait was .** -not on any such gtotandsthat it - was resisted.iTito-. fact was, that the,RiOst -Hon. Gentleman oppositi to him had expected' that the itstrodndi.,n, et . thi4 :new subjeCt would create a diversien in his favour; that - it !would operate: Ike a change Of scenery. and intercepi• the Walcheren expedition front - public view ; In this, however, the Right Hon. Gentl& tnate , Wotakttind himself most egregiously*lnistaketisc the*publie were -a great deal too sensible•to be led astray by such shallow artifices ; . and all' that he could possibly obtain from this contrivance, was a respite of twenty-four Could the House he. sitate, when putting.ip the scale those petty expec tations of the Right Hon. Gentleman, with the on doubted claims Sir Francis. Burdett bad cps ihe :Oise tice of the 'House lie bad a. right to expel they would not,* Without due deliberatitin, 'pronounce on a case which .so materially affected the' coult;. try...i_wbvitAl_W right, to taped .that_thoy should , not proceed rashly, in a, ca?ie involving some of tee fundamental principles of the Constitution. On a, former occasion, be had voted for the liberation - of Mr. Gale Jones, not because. he :was cianvitieed that the House had,no right in committli4 but because he deprecated all attempts to repress ' litical discussions. I.n faa ,he *did . not see any gr 5 ,.;,:e harm in , the subjeet advertised as 1-.961) ; it might as well: have been the--marriage of Napoleon, ur soma other unmeaning novelty - but the subjed as it ec ey Stood, involved some of the prhoieze*s of ft:is .I.l( 7 llSef 1 ;01i . C1) formed an , essential Trt•of . -the ot• If they were proved lot to be foended 7 l; Was co:-vinced the House would abdndon t' out hesitation; that tae trusted the Hen. 'would not be so bold as to come to a d,casion era • such a momentous subjeEt, with Out Alie most tnaturts deliberation. 'Mr SIDNEY YORKE said—" The Teller of the Exchequer has left_ to this•HouSe a legacy, a vale able legacy.; and it is as valuable to us, cowing, front the Teller of the Exchequer, as if it Came from 3 - brewer of bad porter.'.' 'These - words produced an immense - acjtatiOn in House, with . cries : ot - Chair ! , • •Mr. WHITBREA,D.—` I cats °teem myse l f anecree but one way by _the- expressionS of 'the' Honourahle - Mettiber.who has just'spoken, and thilt is as a trailesr man, by being held out as a brewer of bad po.tt-r.--"' I have,only to hope, as the . Hon. Gentleman w l ' l7 has conceived So, bad an opinion of me as a tr-ttic s. Man, and thinks . that I v have so far deia...ed the precepts and example of my father, that would do me the honour to buy a cask of my' pox"' • - ter; and I will sell him the best, that ad the voter,' of the Teller of the ExChequer may drink health." ,Mr. SPEAKER 7.—" The Hon. • Member is Us pa`' sflsliion of the House, •to ,proceed on . the unless some Member speaks to order. taord Mti.-rot4 spike to oreer, and expressed ct sii - e, of taking down the words of the.Hoo. Meniber " N0,.n0, no," pretty generally from all quarters.,.ei , Mr. WIWISREAD.- I `. I wish, as I am-stirel* ~pe4eo pod hurrutur_on this subjeCl, sand the. H"' - GenOeman , as. I : perceive by his countenance, stored to. tranquility ? the House_ w , C r ul4,frot ,igny apology ; I . require none'on this occasion. Mr. CaoKEtt complimented the 'Hon. Gentletno on the manly manner in Which be received the s ° 7., 'camp, which he thought to be unjustifiable; • til-0 0 ,41 f many of- the. abserVations which fell from him —e ll on the subjed of debite, he conceived ' rut h e ,, l; pointed as_ the sarcasm which was just used. depository 9f the, legislative p9wer was arre4ted the execution of its rights. •The Hon.'Bitronet‘ , ? ii . well aware / he dared not utter one sentence on 11 legs here of what he afterwards published as ar g l,, rent. TheEpiescrit discussion is, *betties ire sh in lis 10 giMllkthe right of exercising the priviles: o Of otir'aneestari: He persisted-in saying ,SUCh cC te ` 'the nature of the„question. • Could the H o n. 83r° 1 4 doubt the:authorityof the Hpuse to co m mit s:rang e ip for contenrft, which he had ; ittenapCecttO Pr" ° „r language not Only inconclusive, but of a b a d toste; l2o, Would not yon, Sir, (addt-eSsing, himself ro Speaker) who have ever filled that. Chair with ly dignity, 'interpose your autharifyilsuch e:sdi ris e sions, which I shall tsol.v read, were uttered' .1 ) r . o f expressions- aiming, at and insulting the digtti t Y this House and that , Chair ?" er!'• " Let this instrument — this :thing, ski. ge;itr4, en of misted with the description above given of the proper a lawful WattsittlorilVe:s it not evidently appear T t i i if tt piixe of unseated paper, signed by the Speaker, by vo,ty.o - ; Untried sti,jett has been outlawed, bears nu feature at lily ? I* if t If such were , his expressions here, he repo w would bellpgkat.y. of that Chair to Have Hon. BaronetlO.order. : Is this libel so obscare r , zo •fl 'doubtf9l, as that it should be adj our n e d over' argument.. the -lion. Baronet had left aside, ~launched at once-into a libel on the House: mons . ; alibel monstrous in itself,. and wade -.: vituperated language • - " inflated with their high blown fancied ideas-of M -4 3` and tricked out in the trappings of Itnyalty." What. can the Hon. Baronet "mean by this. knew of no trappings but the trace on and did he arraign this ?—t-lle should conchae., said, by reading another passage. se ll " one cannot with such impressions in ewes mine' ,y entertaining a fear, that the Gentlemen of the 110 " r ,"rir Commons may, in time, unless they revert to the gre at , ciples of the Constitution, be in danger of incurring , tence of St. l'aul upon the 'insolent and tyrannift:"! 11 Priest, who commanded him to be struck for otild 4 T ( lp°l mputh in his own detenee.—'• shall smite lbc", Ott whited wall , for airiest thou to judge Inc after the laws cam mandestme to be smitten contrary to the law?" Whit does the Hon: Baronet Mean by rere o lt id le "can it be explained ? If criticism could ton' %l eg the Sting of a libel,: the adjournment of 4Ould not be Sufficient for the purpOse. I • • - Sir S. Ft ONILLLY . observed, if ever_ a yl oo ' t • 'rriaeded calmness and' _dignity it was the P re fal was 'not a time to vindicate rights butt° P t , pa . k ilt j ust; we en so If th rne I ra in tern ot, urio ku ih tt t 4 1 11 1- ted•th • ! at i ts end r eli ed se e l nber fnligive \c\