The Sun. — London, England, 1818-02-28 00:00:00

,tom_ or,t C:I 1 C r) rt rh ,1141 )tt4 r) ir4 ir,,t 14, ) be ,rctr , cht fur au,l 'the y( HOUSE OP COMMONS. ~ ~ ~~1 prr eX— t 3114 i !l" f to Raid I'!+S)~ Aca O 2 ask - r devinte. There ivar, n'r; situation in which 11e could he 'laced. atfeetin4 his liberty or security ia any waN;,that could ;mco. him to hi triy Coilß,leilee that had bcen renowd in him The Not,le Lard bad Certainly the greatest nmnber of or . epithets towards Mr. Oliver that he had ever hear ;Applied to any I:nlividnal. 11e denied that ()liver was to li' protected by this Bill. No steps had been tatren on the evi dence of that man under the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act; it was therefore inrpossible for him to come within the scope of the present measure. The Noble Lord who bad last spoken had been pleased to draw a most degrading picture of those to wintse cave tit,' internal tranquillity of the country was entrusted. The House, however, would remember that the Magistrates performed the duties entrusted to them, and instead of deserving to he treated ,xith such severity,they were entitled Lithe respect and cratitude of their count rynien•Wit h respect to what the Noble Lord hall said on the subject of spies and informers, what had fallen front hint was justi "table if he could believe the statements which had gone abroad. In the course he had taken this night he was per . fectly consistent with himself, for he believed it might be said of the Noble Lord that he had never yet supported any law that Ministers considered necessary to preserve internal `tranquillity. He disdained 'to encourage a system of Topionrig-e, as much as the Noble Lord could do, but if he had opportunities of possessing himself of information which he thought important to the safety of the country, was he to accept it, or to reject it because it was furnished by informers 'Could the Noble Lord say that if lie were in office, be 'Would avail himself of no intelligence that might he so prh . cured ? He cOnld only say, that for himself, be certainly wished that every circumstance conripcted with the late proceed i7 g3 could be fully explained. As to the complaints of the l'etsons who had Gaon confined, which had been adverted tto 44 the Noble Lord, he could most solemnly declare, that qf the number of persons who had been detained, there Wits not a single case which excited in his mind any feel ings of self-reproach or of compunction. He had done nothing under the late Act, btit what under similar cir cumstances he should feel himself hound to do again. With 4, gpvet to the treatment of the individuals Who bad been taken RIP, he had to say that the statements which bad been wade 'were notonly gross Di's statements, but wt.re ahsointely false, atntl utterly at variance with the acknowledgments formerly made by the came persons themselves. The chief purpose for which he had risen was, to state that Oliver could not be Protected by this Rill,, and he defied any one to chew that an irAproper use bad been 'node of that measure, or that the Power given to Ministers had been exerted in any way re -I,llLN:frit to honourable Lelings, or inconsistent with the true principles of the Constitution. Lord Hn1.1..-iND explained. ' Earl GROSVENOR spoke shortly in faronr of the amend ; and was followed on the SF.nie side by Ent Carnarvon. The question was then put—" That the word now ' stand Part of the question?" Contents, sti; Proxies, 44; 100—Non-contents, 15; Proxies,)s 33-Ilajoity for the second reading, 67. -Adjourned at Eleven o'Clueli, PETITION OF TIIF. LIVERY OF LONDON. • • Air. Alderman WOOO presented a Petition from .the Lord - Mayor, Aidet men, and Livery ot Lon d"', Prayin g that a strict inquiry ;night he insti !:„, , `" (11 " 1 " the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, respect to the Suspension of the Ilaheas k-utpus Act, and that such ingOiry might be made by a Committee, composed of per.ons who had . ntithcr pl aces nor pensions tinder Government. hey also prayed, that tio Bill of Indemnity to rk•li n i vers , on accou nt of their proceedings during - th e Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, might to allowed to pass. The lion. Alderman said, he thought it his duty 1 " state, that the Ilall at which this petition.was atzreed to was one of the most numerous and must tespeet ably attended at which he had ever been -present ; and that very few hands were held up against it.—On the question that the petition be lead, Sir W. CURTIS rose and said—'' MI that I hav e t o say', Sir, is„ that I attended the Hall at AvlliCh this Petition was agreed to, and that I dim apptove or every word in that Petition„" . • The Petition wag then read, and ordered to lie on the table and to he ptinted. MOCK AUCTIONS. Sh I 'e eriffs of the City of London presented - a Petition •j r i un i the Lord Mavur„-kldermen, and Common Council lif -_' Loudon; Mock Aucti o ns. —R ea d, a.,(1 ()r -oiled to h e on the table. 111 r. Aider,,h,,, ATKINS made some observations on the tunnerons frauds committed by means of stock auctions, sod 1";e$:ecl the necessity of a Bill being passed for the purpose W. Putting an end to them. He hoped that his Majesty's Mi- Z iste rg would supp or t a Bill f or t hi s purpose, and that i t ould not he lost as it had heett in the lank `Ir •LUSHINUI . ON was not aware that Ministers intended °itupose any Measure upon the subject. ti r • BINGTnN presented a Petition front the Attornies ,4ticester, praying, that uneducat e d an d iinqualitiei sl Per 4ris'aight not be allowed to practice as CUliVeyanCeri.— '4U, and ordered to he on the table. (;AME. j' e re„ Bill to prevent th e sa l e o f G ame was b roug h t i n, an d „ first time. te nd '.,RENFELL wished to know w h a t course it vv ,. 5 in to pursue with r e sp ec t t o thi s Bill, as several lion. 4 b . "t , ettl en were interested in it who must be wvtYidAbly se nt for s ome d a y s . He therefore buriedthe Bill o would tiot l be h urried through the House. shni. be aI R Io GEOGE wed f o r the cona NKES s s id id , eration of that he wisthe hed Billthat fal H l e time . was -hare that many M em b ers i nterested in it must he absent t i e d e ngaged f o r s ome ti me b y the Assizes or Counts- bvo,i-, ~ and h e t h ere t o' e. would fix the second reading- 'for the 1 ° 1 •11 of April. • The Bill was then ordered to be read 'a second time on the . 1 0th of April. THE LEATITER TAX.. Lord ALTHORPE said that he wished that there should he . ' l aid befor e the House an account of the produce of the Leather Tax for the year previims to that in which the addi „lion had been imposed. Mr. LUSHINGTON suggested that it would he desirable to ' 3l 9ve for a return of the produce of th e T ax f or th e fi ve years l 'receding the tune w h en the additional duty was laid on, and since that time. • Lord ALTHORPE wished that the Return should inchde Via Drawbacks in each yeas - . On th e motion of Mr. LUSHINGTON, there was then or- I: d ered t o be laid before the House au Account of the Annual ro due, of th e D u t y on L eat h er, f or t h e f i ve years previous I l i ) th a t i n wlOch the additional 'fax was laid on, an d a l so o f Produce of that. Duty since that time, together with au './(01111t ' of the Drawbacks in that year. ' General GASCOIGNE wished to )(now whether the th "ule Lord meant to propose any motion to the House Oil d e subject of th e L ea th er T ax b e f ore the Easter Hob o ay s . 1 % . n 4, d ALTHORPE was not vet able to state whether he ltf u ' d d have such a case BS would en - ablle him t o s u i on it to the t;9use a lbotiou f or th e repeal of th e a ddi t i ona l Tax. If he 1,1 make out a sufficient case, he ...mid lose no limo in I ngilig forward such :1 motion. 7 4 ,:rbe iceport of the Offices' Indemnity Bill was brought up agreed tu, and the Lill ordered to be read a third time on • NEW WRIT FOR SOUTHAMPTON. Sit IT. W. RIDLEY wished to know whether it was the in tension ',f any 1 - inn...llcciber Ml:Aber tide to'T - fl , male to move for a. new Writ for.t he borough of Soutl:anipton, 1.1 he room of 111. Rose - ?> 7-: • Mr• SWAGES - AiOURNE ,sAixi that a new Irrit. would ,are been moved for, but, that Mr. Row had Wot..yet been .worn into hi. ottico„.rior,trtd die done ahy act iic cti•geharging :le duties of it, :iltiaotso he had accepted the ci'.flice. ;: Mr. BROI.I,OIIANI N'aid he took it, that Me. Rose, , not be nt in, and not-haring done :Iny act i» 'exectkiti.,,: , the nil its of his office, was rely wide ut the question Which the ;louse sh.inht consider. ••••• Mr. S. BOURNE said he had loo?;ed into the cases upon the suLject, and he found that a seat in the House;was,not considered as vacated till the t o 'accepting au, office - ander the Crown was.sworn its.—(Cries of More,; quier.") It was perfectly indifferent to the Member in question whe ther the writ was snored for now, or after he: had taken the oaths of his office. .. • Sir M. W. RIDLEy observed, that in the present case the Minh: of the embee in questions was in the patent. There was a recent case, in which the new, writ had been moved for immediately on the tare heing ac?.eptcd.• He thereforv. funned, That the Spealstr do issue Ins warrant to.ttle (led; of the Crown to make out a new wilt for Southampton, in the room iii (4eo. Henry, Rose, Esq. who since his election nasaccepted the ()Vice of Cirri; of Pan liniment' The motion was agreed to without opposition. OF THE SECRET COMMITTEE. Me. 13. BATHURST brought tip the Report of the Secret committee appointed to examine the Ser.led Pipers presented to the House by Com mand of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent. The Report, which was then ordered to be read by the Clet:k, was in substance as follows :—That the Com;Hitter proceeded to the examination of the Papers referred to them by the House. That their first object in the eXan:inaiion of those 14a pers Was to obtain such inforimition'as would en oble them to form a correct opinion as to the in ternal stare of the country during the period that elapsed between the last Report of the former Committee, and the present time. ThHt it ap peared that the insurrection which broke out in Derbyshire, on the 9th of June, was the latest open attempt Inade by ti,e conspirators to carry into effect by absolute force • their desperate de signs. That the proceedings adopted to thwart that attempt bad happily been so effectual, that the projects of. the insurgents had been thereby entirely disconcerted, the confidence of their ad herents shaken, and their further designs defeated or delayeri. That the suppression of this itturrec lion, the apprehension of many of the leaders of the conspiracy, who were afterwards brought to trial for High Treason, and rite detention of many of the tuitators lintlrr (lie Act of the last Session, had frustrated all further attempts at open vio lence. still that it appelred, from the language which was continued to be held among the dis affected, that they considered flick revoltrionary projects as being only prevented for the time, and as being not the less certain of success, uoiwith standing their being delayed. That at the trials eeliie;: took place at Derby in October of the per sons concerned in the insurrection, 23 were con victed of High 'treason, or pleaded Guilty ; awl :ogainst the other twelve the La's- Officers of the Crown declined bringing forward any evidence. That the result of these trials had the ef f ect of striking terror into the minds of the disaffected, while the lenity manifested towards the greater propottion of the et ininals was gratefully felt by tie unfortunate individuals them selves. That subsequently to these trials, the spitit of disaffection had been gradually subsiding. That in i!ke.coorse of the autumn the decline in the price of provisions, and the inclease of wages, with the growing demand for labfYllr, had, by re moving the distresses and privations of the lower ordcrs,contribu. ed very flinch to preserve them from the artifices of the agitator., by removing the dissa tisfaction which ex isted d tiring the Leriml ofdistress, while - the lower orders were deprived of the usual means of earning their subsistence. That the Committee saw fresh cause to be - convinced of the statement in the first Report oldie Committees of last •} ear, which represented the general good dis- position of the people at large ; and that they most in paiticular bear testimony to the exem plary co s t duct of the inhabitants of those parts of the country where the insur►ection had broken out, and throne)) which the lnsureents had di rected their course. That the Committee had no doubt thAt the extent and resources of the con spirators were magnified by their leathers, whose obvious policy it was to propagate such a delu sion ; but that it was impossible to calculate to what extent they might have spread, as numerous opportunities would have occurred of seducing persons into the support of their canoe, who might not be at all aware of the atrocity - of their .de signs. That the Committee were therefore of opi nion that it was the duty of Government and of the Magistracy, not only to provide the means of resisting the projects of those per"-- , ►ns when they should break out into .open violence, but also to attack the danger in its origin, by putting an end to the efforts of those who were employed in de luchng the people into a participation in their ne farious tle►igns. That the effect produced by the measures which had been adopted for this pnr pose had been very succe!sful ; and that the Con►- mittee hoped that the bad spirit - which had been su industriously diffuse r. would gradually pass a way, and that so►ue even of those who had been .engaged in deluding the people would awake to a sense of the criminality of their conduct. But ti►:it the Committee would deceive the Ilonse if they did not state that the most vigilant exertions of the ;Magistrates would he ►►ece•sary to check the efforts of those who were still engaged in pol luting the minds of the lower orders; and that the aid' of all persons ought to he exte►rd eel to counteract the effect of those licen- tions - pubJications which were still poured forth with a profusion altogether unexam pled. 't hat in adverting to the state of the me tropolis, the Committee was sorry to be obliged to state 'hat a small number of infatuated indivi duals continued still active in their endeavours to excite insurrection and to overturn the Govern ment and Constitution of time Country, with the design of substituting in its place some re‘olu tiouary form of Governmen:. That they had however the satisfaction to observe, that the ef forts of these individuals had not of late been at: tended with much success, and the member of their proselytes had not increased. That the ces sation of that - distress minder which the lower or ders had so severely suffered, and the employment of a great proportion of those who had been ex posed to the greatest priv a ti on s, h a d prevented in a great degree the efforts of those persons-frow being.successW. That,fhe'Co,mmittee had much satisfaction in ,stating, Caat ,n6 . person of any rank or infl.nenee.ia the commi,unity - countenanced the designs tif:flicse men. ~'`rhat eager as,thoseindi vidnals w.ere, itt. alte pne:6nit of their designs, and capable as,,t4feir. declat:tikion ,S:tetved them of. per petrating the.gteatest itit - oeities, still the Commit tee saw no reason to think; that the vigilance •of the Police and .of.the. Govonment would not , be sufficient to repfe`s f s taei . r efforts : by means colthe existing laws. Tha't,. the ,attention of the Com-: mittee had been next directed 'to. the proceedings, against those persons detained under the.autho ri,tv of the Sospen‘ion Act... That they had amined the charges on which every :pae.of those. persons had been committed, 'and they (mind that, they bad in e‘ety instance been,,substantiated : Upon oath . , That it was the opinion of the Coin mittee that, the powers entrus ed to Govecnineci by the Act alluded to, had in every case been exer cised,with ise discretion ; and that if they had: not been pot iii ,force to such au extent, the safe ty of the country was likely to be very seriously endangered, and the projects of the disaffected to have been realised.,...That it appeared, that of 37 pecsous detained under wairanis,ou suspicion of . , treason, one had been discharged on. the 4111 : of July ;\ another a few day l after ; ; _lO on the 12th of November ; '22, at varions times previous to the commencement of, the present year ; 3 on the 20th of 'January ; and ,one .diet) in prison.' That the Committee .had no reason. to doubt that . , the detention of those .persons Wits governed by the same sound discretion which I,i ad been exer cised in their apprehension. That ,npon the whole, they were of opinion, that Orovernment had, t ,in the execution of the powers vested in them, acted with thctionost,,lenity and knodei'al On the motion that the Report do lie on the table, • Mr. TIERNEY wished to know whether the Com ltdd availed Itself at the power of examin ing persons. lie also wibhed to know what cant se the Noble Lori meant to pursue with respect to the Report, and whether it was intended to fix a day (or taking it into consideration ? Lord CASTLKREAGH said, that with respect to the first question of th 6 Right Hon. Gentleman, it was s very unusual one to be put, as it respect ed the proceedings of the Secret Committee; and, therefore, he should make no reply to it. With respect to the second question, it Was not his in tention to fix any day for taking the Report into consideration, nor having to propose to the House any measure founded upon it. - On thv question that the Report be printed, Mr. TIERNEY said, he was very much puzzled to know why this Report should he printed. it was not to he taken into consideration; why then have it printed ? The truth was, it was all a jutnhie of nonset►se.—.All that had been foretold long ago would be the contents of this Report, was now found to be embodied in it. Who was the author of .this valuable document he dill not know. It only contained the old history of the Derby trials ; and its, whole dritt was to give a thorough ‘vhiteLwashing to his Majesty's Minis. teas. His oNit opinion's \ were not in the smallest degree shaken by any thing in this Report.— Wa. he to he satisfied with the 'conduct of Minis ters, because it was now to be said in print that the powers which had been conferred upon them were %yell exercised ? Who made this Report ? It was made by Ministers and the Member» of the forme r Committees. And how could they have made a different Report from that which had been just read, seeing they were the very persons inte rested ? Was it to he expected they would say any flung agaiost themselves ) The son) of all they said was this—that there had been all ilisurteC lion in Derbyshire, and that there was no saying what might have happened it certain measures loin not been :ulopted. And yet by arresting those upon Sunday, who it was acertained were to rise on the Monday, the whole insurrection might probably have been prevented. lilt it they bad heen arrested then, there wont(' have been no in surrection—and if there had been no insurrection, there would have been no Report that was the whole secret. No 111311 could hear this Report with a grave face. But time most extraordinary thing of the whole was that it did not lead to any measure whatsoever. The truth was, that it did lead to a measure which the Noble Lord did not dare to avow, namely, the Bill of Indemnity. For his own part, be did not b e li eve one wor d of the Report. It was only the evidence of one party in its own favour when the other party was not al lowed to be heard. papers contained in the Bag brought to the House related to the state of the Country. Those papers were referred to a Committee. The most natural question of every member of that Committee when it met would , be, " What am I here for ?" The answer to this would be, that .he was there for the purpose of making out that the former Committees were. right. Did the Noble Lord then think that any man would believe such a Report so framed ? The table was covered with petitions praying that au inquiry might be made into the conduct of Minis. lets. No inquiry at all was made. To call the pr..ceedings of this Committee an inquiry was a farce. The result of those proceedings was this foolish . Report, which after all was not to he taken into consideration why then was it pro duced ? The Noble Lord dare not say it was for the purpose of Itaviiig• a. Bill of Indemnity. With oot that there could be no purpose in appointing a Committee ; it would have been a proceeding, to use a common phrase. without tread or tail. The truth was tl u Minisrers kit that there was a case prima facie against themselves, and they dared not face the House for a Bill of Indemnity without 'producing some voucher 5 and this Report was the voucher ‘t hich they produced. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman seethed to wish to do that now which h e «•as sure the House was not disposed to ik— oamely, to go into a discussion' of the Repo.• on the reading of it by the Clerk. The Right lion. Gentleman-asked if any measure was intended to be loondei on the Report. To this question be hall already made a reply ; but if ,the Right lion. Gentleman was not satisfied, it was perfectly open to suhmit to the House a►ny motion tounded upon the Report. But the Right Hon. Gentle nom took occasion to endeavour to create a, feeling in the House that the Report was quite illusory. In such an attempt the Right Hun. Gentleman had I / already failed to produce an ciFcct npon :the !louse • or the •Conatry ; and he ‘vonld. ventore io pro • phecy., that the R.i 4 h.t. Hon. Clentletnau would not • now suceeedju deluding the Country so ,flar as to make it he that dang-er had c , cr ex isted., .As .:to the Report, did ~ o t mean to name any day for takit!g it into consider ' ation, It was probable that c,n Ern, early day there might be Occasion to enter Into a disoussion upon the subject. ~As, to the insinuation of the Ri g . I.lt Gentleman, :that the opinion of the Com , mittee was .theopinion of Minist;!rs,.the Rigitt Gentleman kuew too. well how the Committiles of both Houses had been constitutes!, to think there was any just ,grottud for such an insinuation.--. hear, hear !)--,lt was a sufficient grontol for appointing this Committee, that the House anti the country should. know what had been the ex tent of tire danger—above all,, that the moral part of the country arid the Magistracy noi l ht be made aware of the growing evil, which it would require their utmost talents to suppress. His Majesty's Ministers,, when the danggr was threatening, met it with vigorous measures ; and when the wore imminent danger subsided, they submitted their conduct to illvemigation._ Notwithstandin g the disconntenance of this investigation by the Right Hoo. Gentleman, its result 'was, that the.Com mitteethonght that the conduct of Govimment lottLbeenientent,. moderate, and wise ; and suck he was sure woold be the opinion of the House and the coontry.—(llear, bear l) Mr., littouGoiw. could not but think that the Noble Lord . , who knew so accurately what would be the feeliugs of the Howie and of the Country, mi g ht have thrown iiimsdf upon the House and the Conntry without seekhug the protection of Secret. Committee. It seemed that this Report was not to he considered by the House, but to be printed, that the Country might know what its si tuation was. • he objection- to the Committee was, that it was composed in such a way, that it could hot be expected to produce any other Re port than such as had now been laid before the House. The Noble Lord refused to tell whether persons had been examined before the Committee, but other Members of a Secret Committee had not felt their lips so strongly sealed as to the proceed ings of the Committee when it served the purposes of the debate to make any statement relative to it. The Committee was composed entirely of persons who had places or sonic connec tion with Government, except, to keep up the delusion, four Members frons Lis side uf the House, though it was known that with one ex ception they would not attend. That one who had attended was an lion. Friend of his (Mr. Wynne, we presume), and the friendship between them was such as could not be shaken by his say ing, that it there was a man on that side of this Muse prejudiced in favotir of the course-pursued by Ministers, it was his Hon. Friend, for . he had been one of those who, he was grieved to say, had g iv en th e most effectual support to the me•ssure4 of last Session. Great as were the talents of Isis Linn. Friend, his autbotity on this subject' u even greater than was due merely to his Wen's, fur it was the authority of an mhnit , sion, and not of an argument ; therefore it was that he considered the naming his Hon. Ftlend to he one of the. Committee was most in,idions. The Committee was a Committee of Government and its &the> rents to white-wash Government and its mea sures. It was a Committee selected . trout the. Cotnn►ittees of la St year, a nd appointed to approve of the acts of those Committees On the whole, he would rather that this Report should be printed, that the country might sce the result was such as to juvity all that had been said relative to the Committee. Me. B. BATUURST said, that the arg-nment (If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman reldtive to the composition of the Committee was not borne out: by facts. It was not true that onfy one of the Member's from the other side of the House had at t euded that Committee. As to the necessity of the Committ ee ' being secret, the answer to what was said about having the Committee an open one was plain, as the case required secrecy '[lie persons who gave their evidence were induced to do so under a promise of secrecy ; and there was only the option between obtaining tire evidence and breakin! that promise. Sir. W. BURROUGHS hoped it Would be stated whether any persons had been examined before he Committee. if no ans‘ver was jven to this question, he woult! move that the Committee he Instrtlcted to report whether or not they had exa. mined any witnesses. Lord FOLKESTONE said, he had examined the precedents respecting Bills of Indernt.ity, acid lie would cVlenge the Noble Lord - opposite to pro- duce any instance of any Bill similar to that now proposed, except in the Case of 18O1.' The Report wits then ordt red to be printed. Mr. littooonam observed, that it was strange there was no•mention of the Spencean plan in this Report. Was it that this great plan had died away ; or was it that it was alluded to in that pats of the Report which related to the designs of some persons in London ? Sir W. BUIIIIOUGFIS moved that the Committee should be instructed to report whether they had examined any witnesses. The SP FAKER said the motion could not be en tertained, as the Committee, basin;; made its iZe port, now ceased to exist. The lion. Gent!email might move for the appointment of a new Coin mittee. The motion was of course abludoned. in the [Iloilo!) of Lurch CASTLEREAGH ,it was ordered, that the Sealed I ) ,,pets, laid before the House and examined by the Committee, should ha returned under seal to the Secretary of State for the Home Department. Mr. TIERNEY gave notice, that on Wednesday next ha should move for a Return of the Number of Out-stauding' Bank Notes. Di r. W. SMITH presented a Petition from the City of Nor wielt, praying' a Reform _in the Admioi,trio jun of do s h ce that City; and he afterwards moved that it should he refer red to the Cottniittee apppinted to inquire lac, the state of . • • ..• ..• • tile in tlic fur Mr. BENNI'A' present 4 ;v•Petition from the Borough Taristock, cut plainingof t lie Taxation on Goals carried c”ast wise. lie _afterwards presented Petitions from s;:muel • Cock, Dickson, and atitithe'r person whose name we could not hear, all confined under the Suspension Act,. aglinst the till of Indemnity, and three Petitiulis trues Nuitingliatu fur Patliaulvtitukillfortu. ARMY ESTIMATES. PALMEitSTON, ')u moving the Order of the Day for the Cominittee of Supply, to which