The Sun. — London, England, 1808-05-20 00:00:00

1M !Ei iAL PARLijIIjE \T hl Ii OUSE OF pEgits. TITURSDAY, MAY 19. Mr. Make continued in ,reply in the Roxburgh Appeal, and is to be further heard to-morrow. Lord DoNCAN took the oaths and his seat. The Scotch Judges' Provision Hill; and several Pri: vate Bills, were brought up from the Qommons, and read a first time. CLANDESTINE MARRIAGES, The Bishop of EXETER, moved the second read ing of the Bill for rendering valid Marriages which had been solemnized in certain chutenes and chapels ',without a publication athe banns. Tile LORD CHANcei.unt could not omit this occa 7 skin of expressing his regret at the frequent introduc tion of 8i1L.4 of this description.,, '4:hey seemed now to ke considered as that sort of Indemnity Bill.; • which came - annqally before the House, and which began to be looked upon as matters of course. He would, however, at present give notice, that they should no longer have his countenance and, in- - deed, if the Marriage A& was to remain in force, ' and to be attended to as it ought to be, with what propriety. could hills of. the nature of that now fore their Lordships be permitted to pass ? The Bishop of EXETER acquiesced in the justness of the Noble and Learned Lord's observations, an 4 hoped that the introduaion of such, Bills would cease. Lord LittiDER6ALE considered the Bill as of very great importance, inasmuch as it chewed the mime •rous inconveniences that , aroae front the Marriage „Att. • As the Noble and Learned ;Lord seemed re solved: to turn his attention to these inconveniences, 'he would perhaps AiScover how far it might .be ex= pedient to repeal the Marriage Aft, or so tar to new .model its provisions as to prevent the necessity of such frequent suspen4ions of it. • Lord HoLLA?Jo concurred in this opinion. Ide ' wished even the Legislature would take a more wide and liberal view, of the Marriage . lUt, and some other At such as the Corporation and Test Ads, which proved such hardships to so many large de scriptions of his Maje,ty'S subjects. Surely that Aft uld not be pradleally wise and useful which itts fled a recurrence to so many suspensions of it. The Loan CHANCELLOR said he must have been grossly misunderstood, if it was supposed be could entertain any intention of moving the repeal' of any en these Ads ; on the contrary, en occasion was like ly iu to occur when he should declare his opinion of the necessity of retaining them, He,certainly would hereafter set his face against such •measareE as the present, and • manifest that resped in which the Marriage Ad - ought to be held, and the atten. Lion with which it should be observed. Lord REnEsnALE would 'never sit silent and 4ear The declarations' that were Made by seine Niihld Lords.— As., he deeply and 'sitteerely reveled 'the Marriage Mt, and as: he felt the great importance of a stria observance of it, so should he always be ready to raise his voice minst the Opinion Of those . to whom nothing in the` Constitution appeared sa cred, and who avowed the design of proposing the repeal of the Marriage At% ardother AOS equally eisential to the safety of the State, and to Ole well being and peace of the community.---Those who harbour such designs could not mean well to their Country. • Lord STAN HOPE called to order. He felt much resped• for the Noble and L9rned Lord, btit he never would allow him., or any Noble Lord to impute mo tives to Noble 'Lords as influencing - the opinions they delivered in that House. Lord REDESDALE did not conceive himself to be disorderly.' He did not think that any Noble Lord,. without moving for the repeal of an 'Ad of the Le-, gislature, bad a right to enter into arguMents that treated it with disrespe&. The Noble Lords in his eye had spoken disre3pedftdlyof the Marriage Ad,,, and intimated a wish for the repeal of other Ads of eval importance and necessity. He therefore felt Intuself Justified in again declaring, that those who would attempt to repeal such Acts could not wish well to their Country. Lord 14,supcansi.g called the Noble 'and Learned Lord to order, and reprobated the narroWnets and illiberality of his opinions, which were•nOW held odious in every part of the Country, and' which he was certain would prove as mischievous as they were odious. Lord .Era.rmacinouon contended, that his Noble and Learned friend was stridly iworder ; his ob servations grew .94 of the Bill.hefora tholitatise. Alf& souse fiartlier explanations between - the I_,oll Crists;cet,Lort, Lord itEOE3bALE, .and . LOrd'iIUL LAND, the Bill was rkstd.a'second time, and ordered to 'be committed. INDICTMENT BILL. The Loan ,CliAtaCFLLon Moved' the second read ing of the Bill for Athending the Law with regard to the course of proceeding on Indiaments and En ibrmation in the Court of King'S Bench, in certrnu cases, ..tics, • • • Lord Srmsnora rose and inveighed against the Bill , in very severe terms. It was the most mis chievous Bill that had ever been'brought tip from the other House of Parliament,' and whoever was the framer of it must be egregiously ignorant of the law el the land. How such a Bitl could have passed the House of Commons, where there were many intelligent and enlightened men, had 'surprised him exceedingly;. but he afterwards found that none of them had seen it. This arose from no small abuse. it was the Custom of the House of Commons, at the commencement of every Session, to establish four great Cothrnittees, to one of which this Bill ought to have been referred., But this custom, like oth - et good cdstoms, was no longer attended to; and thus .it must be supposed, this,mass of igno. rance and mischief pissed without observation. There was nothing which shoUld be held more sa cred than the fundamental principles of the Corn, mon Law. They contained the quintessence of wisdom • it must therefore be the' quintessence of folly to Aisregard or violate them. The fratneF of the present Bill was guilty of that folly. '}-16 would try mi..n in their absence, whom the Jury had sworn to we present- at the bar, he would impriion men for the 11103 t trifling faults, and render.nugatory or • tits inn, contempt the trial by Jury. These were :iguk,.l.g the t eryoterithis Tnischiefs' tvbich th e "MU waii-pregnp.nt it was 411 encxoaciatent uPon 4 the ribts and liberties of the subjed,.' a t'!!1 Ili. Magna Charm, &c. 'flick Lordships, lie trusted, •wOuld sl*,v a due resped for these sacred rights, by manifesting their abhorrence of such a nitets.ere, lii it least Would giVe decided negative to the ,second reading ofthollill, in order that it might he fejefied. Lord Hom,kso was surprised to see such a Mea sure brought forward without a sinele_arguteent having been'adduced in proof of ,its necessity, or a single attempt made to. obviatbe 'objedions to which it Was so liable. 'He must therefore call his Noble , and Learned Friend opposite him, (Lord Ellenhorough) to state the grounds on which such a Measure could be justified: Lord ELLENBottounn thought it time enough to. refute objections when he should have hoard them urged. •Lord HOLLAND could not presume to handle such • . • an intricate question with the professional precision and accuracy of a. lawyer. But the Bill before the Reuse was liable to objedions, which every Lord must observe and feel, who understood and valued the Coustitution. What could be more ttn conStitutional and alarming than the language and the grounds set forth in the preamble of 'the Bill ? It had been found convenient to amend the law with regard to the course of indiaments and infor-' mations in certain cases relating to the Public venue, therefore it is expedient to extend the same to other cases.—What ?. because for the security and better colledion of the revenue, it has been found necessary to take measures to prevent firOug-. gling; must we therefore multiply the cases 10 - whtch, such provisions may be extended, without any ne cessity whatever being shewn for such a wanton de parture from the common law of the laud ? Is the : Attorney-Oeueral to be armed with new and more, . extenaive powers to proceed by information ? That is not the mode of process which the Constitution sandions„ which is recognised by the common law. They require the mode of indidmeut, and the pre.. sentation of twelve sworn men. This is the process which the highest Authorities have recommended, to which the Elates and the Holts have given a de cided preference. Where was the necessity, where , the justification of these innovations on the Common Law, so. little consonant to the best statutes, so little consonant to, the best pradice of the best times ? Where now were the enemies of innovation ? Where were those who. so' lately trembled for the existence of the Constitution, when some branch of the prerogative was said to be encroached on Were those enemies to innovation alive,, and saw only when the innovation, touched the prerogative,. and did they become silent and insensible when the in, novatioo trenched on the rights and privileges of the people ?, Was this' fair ? Was this consiltent ? .SuCh prejudices and partialities he should never let pass onnoticed.. Against such enormous departures front the Common Law, froM the spirit and the letter . of the Constitution, he should ever raise his Voiee, as long as he able to perform his duty as a Lord of Parliament. Lord ELLENBOROOOR would not censure the zeal and activity with whiCh•lhe two Noble Lords watch e ed over the Constitution ; but he must at the soaks time wish .that their zeal And adiv;ty would have, allu..Ned them to attend more minutely•to the goes, titan under dismission. They would then find that it was not necessary, particularly in cases of misde, nioammr, that the person to be tried should be pre sent in Court. • Nay, the great majority of cases was the other way; and there was one memorable case of late years, where the person to, be tried thought fit to expatriate him Sell before the day of trial arrived. This sliewed the necessity of the present meaiore. The Noble Barl says, the oath taken by the Jury presumes the prisoner is at the bar. It is so in trials for felony. Baja not the Attorney General Sworn, on entering into office, as well as the Juryman, who is bound likewise by his oath as long as' he remains impannelled ? The authorities of Justices Hale and 'Melt have been quoted in support of the process by indidment. A fuller knoWledge of the principles on which those great men laded, would perhaps prOfe, that in certain cases they were,no• less in favour of proceeding by information. As little Validity had the objections that this Bill, infringed on the trial by Jury, or on any of the rights and liberties of the sub jed, while the propriety, indeed the necessity of the Bill might be illustrated and enforced in a variety of ways. Lord ERSKINU could not allow the principle'con-' tamed in the preamble of the Bill ; It was hostile to the liberty of the subjed, and incompatible with the spirit of the constitution. As little would lie alloW that ordinary magistrates and Justices of the Peace shoUld. undertake to ad under this Bill in all CUM. #l.'hey might indeed be competent to act in cases of bavery,•riot, Ste. but where matter, of libel, or such more intricate points, were to'be judged of, he should be sorry to see them interfere; These and many more objedions he entertained; against the Bill, and they were #oo powerful to permit his assenting to.it. Tile LOAD C;HANPELLOit said, he had attended to all the argunients of the Noble Lords, and be was still persuaded there was enough good in the Bill to send it to*a`Cornmittee, in, which stage alterations might be suggested, and adopted if necessary. With reaped to the general principle of the Bill, it would greatly aid the revenue laws, and consequently prove of public utility. Earl STANHOPE rose to censure the observations of a•Noble and Learned Lord (Ellenborough), who had been to learn law,.and notwithstanding he canto with the law of others in his belly, was determined to prefer his own law. The Noble and Learned Lord had made' assertions which be, without • being a lawyer, would contradid. He could cite instances likely to choak the Learned Lords, and they could not say amen to suah.instanees, because amen would stick in their throats. The'dodrines of lawyers would not be relied on. In the reign of Charles 1. the King asked one otitis lawyers if ship-money could not be taken by the Crown. The lawyer told him, the King might take it in cases of necessity. So far they behaved likescoundrels. In the reign of Charles IL a'Judge maintained, that no man could write or use argument against the Government, unless by consent of the Government. In this the Judge had behaved like a fool, when he supposed any Government would consent to hear itself libelled. He knew of no law in this Realm but the law established by the. King, and Commons, and it Was a new doc irine twassert . that the laws of the land should be superseded by disetetiruarypower invested in .Inog6. Lord ELLEICIWIWIA4I ) in explanation, ed that the Noble Earl a li o sy. o lie last had misrepre- there be before the anise an Aecgunt 01: t!!., s'ented what he had said. lie as-erted,, io cases of Revenues and Charges of Prime of WO•1 4 . It 4 r * information', t hat the oath of the accuser was known, for the years 1804-5., 1805.-ds and, of the EstiA l4l4 ' but .).vlien an oath was 411 ten before a Grand Jury, 'of the same for he years 1800-7 and 1a0.7 - s•.' the 'person .who made tlr oatti could never be call- : These Papers were afterwards presented at Ow tikkr ed iti question. --- - by Mr. Owen) and referred to the cox:nal - met; up I.4)rdI;.atZDEIIDALE opposed the Bill, and contend- stairs On. India Aft:alit • as, well as ordered, to t/s~ ed that the principles of it had pot been explained L}-t.1.1110 1 The several 'Accounts. preset - lied on Monk tnt Lci ,, rtt.,l-Ipt,t4p N also complained that the was Mr. Owen, relative to the..fte.enue, and Chair' , °A' til)P (.ll6 i'able - • . the, lodia.Cnrapany;„..Sr.e. were, on the Molten of" I. qoest ion waT th en - put; 'And - the - Hotilidivided. Mr. Dundas, ordered , te,,,,tbt committee nurithers,vercz—For the•secondreading of the fairs above stairs. Y, • Bill I 7---Against it4 . —M-ajority 10. NAVAL CIIAN,LAENS, • • • Tile Pill wa4 OK-11 read a second tirne, and Order- Mr. WARD, pursuant to notice, nioV,c4 for Arlo ed , to be COMM; ited,on Thursday ,nex,t.r.,-Adjourned. obtained leave- to bring in . to the. Coln , missioners and Governors of Greenwich, H 050.1,44 to procure a survey to be made of the llvint4. of Simag • Amp, in 'the County of. Nerthomberlarid, apd, fok vesting in theM the'Revenues of m the sae, intilt event Of the death. of the 'present Incumbent, ; as weli as - to prevent the lapse in the right of 144sq‘Alak 414 ' to thatliving, on that event.: - • • Sir CHARLES POLE seconded the Motion., ~Mr.- I ttaataan obtained leave' to bring in A Bit/ t% empower Grand, Juries in Ireland to-sell or dispAt of the Ground occupied by old Quort tieuaes 4 lat Jails, in Ireland, Mr. WARDELL gave notice, that he, should too ' morrow move for the production of, a Letter,- frottt the Lords of the Treasury, dated the 0. gtb of March* 1808, relating to the clothing of the ttegtl.l4.k Art, .COTTON. MAN,UkA.CTUttEItB. Mr. ' . Ross, pursuant to his notice, moved igt leave to bring in a Bill to ; regulate the . Wilfcesot Persons. engaged . in 14,,t11.4n:efaetilre- ‘Qtt.qa Wool. A short discussion took place upon thia motkoha in which Mr. Davies 'Giddy,' Mr. klertken,, Milton, Sir Robert Peele, Mr. Thoinpson,,,. Tierney, and Mr. W. Smith; Teprobated, the ptig ciple ctf attempting to fix : a minimum of eines Any trade, and contended, that it e elicit of an,c4 4 measure would be' to enhance, the evil which it W sought to remove, by obligifig the nr;iter, tr. 4 tottfac% turers to give the whole of: their work to, their OA men,' and to discharge the inferior ones., The motives of the gxeltarwEß dikillslo to .the which had induced his Right Ho& kriend to bring. the matter under the consider** tiop of the Reuse; but agreeing; as he did, in 11l principle laid down, by these, who had. vrecOlg him, he could not consent to the 13,11 beipgjlroeiht in, because that would give rise to expectations of ties lief, which could ~sot Atterwayds be realizet'4, I.(tt", measure , proposed were t v bv, carr i e d into e tfeCt,,a , would, put a stop to that merciful dist rib : 1)6(.11ot employment which the master tio'naraetekers Made,: in order notto discharge r it'. possthlsz,, tioia their men. The case of the parties-wasaleseryiAt every aqention but the measure ropmed by WA . Right 'hon. Friend would nut I,llbril'i hem the rviikf AftetA.few words from Mr. ALEXANDER 1.1AE0, 4 14 who charged the distreis . of the trittonfliCturers..apn4 the stagnation Of trade produced by the Orders. Council, and from Mr. Henry. Lescelle,;;,,agliesi principle of measure p.roposed,• .t4i.oe, wlt4 the permisSion of the liouse„ withdrttw his Motion.. Mr. Reiss ii leave to byino ip A OR explain and amend severtl Atts rolatinetott k e Woois len Manufacture. The. Bill ll,' propose 4 to ietrodt,4 would be rounded on the Iteeorts orthecniornitteo on ,the Acts in question,. aed %v out& go to adjeSt 0-4 disputes betweoa masters and woklimen, by regol4;y ing the manner of employing machinery in the nufae - tures, and also the number: of apprentices may•bo-takeri.i . , • After a feW elaervat.iens from Lord Altt.ToN, ‘10, 3 allowed,that the•use of machinery lutist he adtloltoi but hesitated at the*pi.opOiit.V.ni of a total repeal. of the Stattye of I;l4,beth and frtitii Mr. W1; 1 - 1, 4* 4 force, who. seemed to hate; 'a -similar ditti .c utly,loll W 4 given 'to bring in Mr. Iftsittssor: brought hi the Additional Slaril Duty hill, ,which was reada first tint,... ) , it mi t or4rCO to be read a i6oond, time to-met - row.. , I Ott the.: tOption of :11r,,Ros . e, the Cornroittee Pil the<Pilots Bill was deferred to Monday; 'Mi. WO . thouelit it rigit,t, to 6taje that. lie i had : -in view' In to increase the number of Pilots he , ond the precept established limit; the limit now existing was Wished fitly years ago, -and-car:ld not pool* .kt. suificient for the prc,seut tinie,'wlitin the tininbcf,o snipping was five glues* ,is at e.4t. : 4 had .bet t. 111 '':! 1 Iva ans..ver to a question twin this hcr side'„ AV - g Rose Said he did 10)t t:i r e , lll'to jtjtql - fer Witloll‘. coi• porate rights of I tie Pi,ots, otherwise•O;do inero. l tag the innnher. RO USE ,PF COMMONS: THURSDAY, MAY 19. Mr. Mq,Eoti. presented a' Petition frOrn the Free holders, Magistrates, and Varmers of the County of Aoss, agaiust the inn:tided permission of the use of Sugar and .M.olassetv in Vistilleries 7 —thdezed to, he on. the table. . , The Dean and Forest Timber Plantation Bill was brought up, read a first time, and ordered to be rea4 a second time to-morrow. 1)/Tr. Edge, from the Court of King's Bench, pre sented a opy cat the Record in the Cause, Messrs. Paxtons and against Sir Horne Popham and others, pursuant to tha Order of the House.-;—Order ed to lie on the table and to be prin4ed. Mr. LITTLETON put off' his notice of a Motion, relative to the publication of Sentence's of Courts Martial troni to.-ungiow ((his day) to, Monday next. • • CiAthier u .EI Moved the. second reading pf the Bill for amending the lows relating to the Set-. Clements of Paupers, the objeas of which he stated to be the following :—As the Law now stood, a person,. by renting a tenement at tOl. per year, or by a purchase of a tenemeni for the consideration of thirty pounds, became legally settled in,,a parish, and it was proposed by this Bill to,taiake the amount Of Mgt twenty pounds, and 'the consideration hi a purchase one hundred pounds; in order to entitle an individo to a legal. settlement ; it was also pro. posed to enable the Magistrates to send Away Scotch and Irish Vitupers when they shoWd izecome. charge able, Mr. CURWEN thought that the Poor Laws ought to be revised; but: deprecated any such partial rhea", sure as the presdnt, which would only increase the difficulty otauch revision. He thought it wouldalso be cruel and oppressive to send away, to places where they might have no f►iendls, the labouring Scotch and Irish, who might have passed the best part of their lives in assisting in the iturovemetit of th►s Country, the moment' they becatne chargeable. Be therefore moved, that the Bilk be read a. second time this day six months. • , . . My. bock boc:xH ART A though he did not approveorall the principles. of the nieasuro, still hoped that the Bill would be allowed to. go into a committee,. where the provision might be confined. to the Clauses for raising the Amount of rent and consideration in a purchase which was.td give, a settlement. Mr. DAvias Ginvir, Mr. aoliN EA, Sir SA:4nm. ROW-14N; and Mr, WHITIH!,*AD, opposed. the Bill, on the ground that it was Most Unwise and. irupblitic to increase the diiliculties. of obtaining settletnentsp, and that the provisions respeding the reinnval of Scotch and Irish Paupers were cruel, oppres t k; and unjust. • Mr. GRAHAM supported the Bill, and . partictitarly the latter clauses, on iliti‘gniund that they were De, cessary !or the relief of the Northern CalticB A which had whole ship loads of Irish. Panpers thrown in upon them, iti.or4er to relieve:.the l'asishes inlre land, General 11 , toNTA0v observed, that no ship loads of paupers had been bent frotri Ireland, but those that had been sent, contrary to Law and the Constitution, out of the count!) , during the late troubles. Mr, Caox i tta stated, that there were km Poor Laws in Ireland. Colouel STANLEY replied, that,as the dill had been Put into his hands, he bad tbotoa it his duty to take the sense of the Hotise upon it.. After a feW Woriis from Sir RnAzirr BEJ4; to show that the subjea was deserving of consideration, a 'divisiutl tc4itc Alice, when the numbers were—, li'or•the set ota reading no%+ - For the Au eudineA T. .1.% I 4 1111jupity' 'l'he bill was, of course, lost. ' INDIA PAPEK.S. Lord litNNlzzr4 .ryse pursua to the i notice 11+ bad given sometime ago, to mike a motiott Pi! subje,3 the Prct ious to moving 014 the House shonld go into a Coutinittcv, ite Would e*.'" plain th nature of the ltesolutioti, ni,:ant to 414 in that Committee., find the tilture and cages of 1 0 1 changes made :in those Resolutions sine::: he 11:114 antinpnCed them. topics - in% 01v,.2(.1 in the Itopurir were imporiant,and inometitous, and tic therities among; thetv3seives the f iri-to. cipa! points. lle , catiitnittee'N'vas oppuait(4 first imtaare to consider of the Weans of atfoli.ling rB,l lief to the West India,Proprietors and Merchants, WA the order under which the Coinatiace assenl4 l .ol direaed the Comni'.t tee to inquire, whether the tOP4 immediate and etlettnai means of relief N'fAliti 9.4 be, to confine thellistilleries to the use &if I , oo' and molasses alOPti In the course of ;hi.; it became necessary to .ascertain lipw far tht culture of the country would be affeEted by fivic 4 restriction, and this investigation led . to the kog' v ' ledge of facts which established necessity of the restriCtion, exclusive of all .qms t ide A r A : ation whatsoever of the interests of the West PY.P'' Y' It was impossible to separate the two, tuns; but this he would aay, that n e ither he near Conimittec. coup have recoMmended the Resolviti° • they had done, if the Interest of the Country, must ink' the wisdom t!hq from those of flee West India 'Proprietors, had Pot ;13 ,1 the Opinion of the Committee rendered such mcas" e t , necessary, The Committee finding t hat this cPul dr •ri., was generally defiendant f:ir a stltliCient 'corn and flour upon foteip countries, ziod that supply was cut otr in the present state of ti ro( •without prospe6t of a sufficient resoiirce in ; last year's crop o f thi s et/1,1141 - y, tbouglit .it right ati,. A precaution aga ins t f am i ne to s ' o p ti l e iiorn corn, With a v i ew IC) a more ample and saw. Osladoty supply of sustenance fa the pcpplef );;:, Mr. Dutoas presented, pnrivant to ,Order of die House, two enormous p.itc:ils of Papers rela tive to Indian Affairs. On moving-that'the Papers' do lie on the table, the Hon. Mernhcr - ohserved, that they bad beeif ordered with a view to the motion of an Hon. Baronet, whom he. did not then see in his place. But , as it could not be necessary that they should all.be printed, at a bevy expence, ,he trusted that neither the Hon. Baronet., nor any - other Hon. Member,. would inove for their being printed,. with= out giving (hie notice of sut n. motion, in Order that the House might judge whether it would be expe, dient toagree to such a 11/opinion: Sir JOHN AxSTltUfilf,Ult triliCed that the lion. Baronet would attend to the suggestion ut his light Hon. Friend. The praaice of calling tor Papers, and moving that inershould be printed, hadbecome a growing grievance. No less than / 51:10u- pages of paper bad been mod ,fur with respect to the sub- Jett of Indian Atraira, which produced an expence in printing of from to 14.;0001. •If these Papers should be printed, what Gentleman- would read them )` Mr. lieiNxits agreed with the Hon: Bart. that the voluminous papers moved . for, and ordered to be printed,• were, a growir,ig. evil. The expence of printing for both }louses of Parliament last sessicmp amounted to ninety thoei and pOundS. Mr. WIIITRAE44 ogre ed , that notice should be given of any motion fort he printing of these vole, minous.papers, in order that'the Hotise might de. cide whether it would be expedient to allow them to be printed. He contend, however, that the ex, pence shottld nor be anir censiderotiou with that House, if the,. Papers weir necess9ry to any investi, gation prosecuted by Qn ler of tlyitt - 1 - louse.—Thg Papers were atm . ordered t o lie upon the' table. Qrdered, vtr. 111t1 multi, a of Air. ,I4NpAs, that'