The Sun. — London, England, 1810-02-07 00:00:00

His Hon. Friend had said, he thought it a rnatt6r of importance ; he for his own part confessed he did not think it was, This would frequently be the case., The importance of tbe war had not weighed bufficiently with his Honourable Friend to bring him to the House in the various questions concerning it, though this Standing Order had produced that. effect. His Honourable Friend had always been an advocate for the Liberty of the Press. He (Mr. Windham) was the same; but on other grounds, and what had been said by his Hon. Friend on the present ques tion, seemed to him to be rather, the matter of a threat than an argument. To allude to the enforce ment of all other Standing Orders was a threat, and not an argument. This Standing Order had ob tained and been submitted to for a century, and no inconvenience had been found. in it till within the last 30 years. His Hon. Friend seemed' to consider the right of admission of strangers into the gallery as a part of the Constitution ; whereas, on the con ' ttary, it had been granted as a mere matter of fa vour. He would first ask, how much the country had gained in. its affairs since that pra&ice had obtained. He - could not say in what respeel the country had gained,any thing : past times might be conFtasted - with the. present ; but still, from the daily manner in which the debates were published, be wanted to know in what way he was to state the advanrngeS accruing to the country. What Was the value to their Constituents of knowing what 'was passing in that House • Supposing they should ne ver know, it was only the difference between a Ile presentative Government and a Democracy. Till within the last twenty or thirty years, it not only was not practised as now, - but it was not even per mitted to publish the debates Of that House. So lately as the time of Or. Johnson, the debates were • never published but under fiffitious names. He was one of those who liked ,the Constitution as it was, he did not like it as it is. If this had been to lerated, winked at, and suffered, it was no reason that it Should on all occasions be continued, and that persons should make- a trade. of what they ob tain . from•the galleries, among whom were to be' found men of all descriptions; bankrupts, lottery- office keepers, and decayed tradesmen, He had heard that the Proprietors of Papers had talked of the injustice of closed doors. This was taking up the sabjea as if the admission of strangers into the gal lery was a privilege . , hut it was no such thing, and 113Qttgt► t►e iiiight perhaps think it useful after having so long prevailed, he did not allow it to be t privi lege. Were that the case we should come into a state of de:liocracy—a state like that i , f Athens:— He did n:.t think accounts in the daily papers were so desiraWe as many others did Tttey liadlately reviled' Government so far as to assert, that some of titcir cotemporaries were in the pay of Government. What aid this prove—not the talue or actual import- mice .ol papers—but it clearly shewed that if Go ‘eroment could haire them in their pay, then papers were liable to be let for hire—to be bought and sod —,-,and the press, which has been thougilt in this country the palladium of its liberty, was .to be purchased by the higheit bidder. He did not wislA to establish such a' poWer in' the press as to enable it to controul Parliament. He did not know any Df . the ConduCtors of . the Press; but he-under stood them to be a set of men who would give into the corrupt rr:srepreSentations of Opposite sides; and 001 Lo - reno Lis haul] to abrogate :in order which was made to eorred an abuse. He - vow saw that it led to, consequences of a mot tui•chievous tendency—no less than to 'cllange the character of a Representative Govern ment into that of a Democracy ; and led direetly to tit t despotism which had so lately desol ued other coon:ries. He did not l'ke to part with a Standing Order, which, thoegh it Might have run to rest, would not in fortnee tines have led to any mischief, and he could.seeno reason why it should no vl,' be laid prostrate at the foot of the very Worshipful, but he would not say mien?, Corporation of London Prin ters. Those gentry Lad their favotiriteS. • His Ho , jlOl.ll - ble Fe:end was esteemed and hailed bythern as a generel : patron of the laonat Press. e thought the House th H ought to discard a sort of dis.. gracefill objection to its proceedings, and Maintain :;;..se rules and orders which have so !Ong prevailed. He would assert, that the rights of, the House were now in danger of being lost (torn misuse. It was. like stintting up the gates of a park, in order to prevent a custom to a path-way. It was like the O. P.'s. who had set themselves up as the people of the COuutry, and by a system of opposition and Violence had compelled the proprietors of the Theatre to give then plays at their own price. In this way the Proprietors of Newspapers told them that the people most have a daily publication of the proceedings of that House at their breakfast; and, to the Dame of the Public, say we have that right, and we have friends in the House that will support us in our claim. His Hon. Friend had said the r,:: racier of the House was at stake ; according to ;vhictrargament, all the Houses for the last thirty Years had no characier or ability at slake. His i Friend was now also Bro s t anxious for the charade s of Ministers ; he coldd no t bl2me hi m for that saisibility, but. lie (Mr. Windham) was anxious for the fame of this House, and could not see why they should hesitire in supporting a Stand ing Order, winch had the sandion of sa m3ny years in its favour. For these reasons he should eel tain ly give hi voce against the motion. Lord FOLKSTONE felt compelled to declare the reasons which influenced him to. depart from thee' • opinion lb it he had formerly held, in common with the Hon. Gentleman, who had just seoken, as to the inexpediency of allowing the publication of the proceedings of the House of •Com Mons. In several :of the st-ntiments expressed by the ,Hon. Gentle man he I-caddy concurred. He believed with hint th it the venality of the press was great. He was willing to acknowledge too that the last thirty years had produced a considerable change in the constitu tion situation of the country ; but while he de plored this change, it was impossible for bim trot to attribute it to events wholly unconneaed with the business before the House; to the accumulation of ;axes; to the continuation of war; to the in crease of standing armies ; to the augmentation of barracks ; to any thing, in short, rather than to the publication of tae Debates of the House of Com onus, • ;Valaangh at a former period of his :ife be owned that he was disposed to, think that the pub, icaHnp pf those kbatei nlight occasion much mis • chief, end although bad the publication of them in iPPrlcc been connived at, he was by no nvans grepared to deny that he might at the present mo. ment have opposed it ; yeti as-the public had been allowed regularly to receive a report of the proceed ings in Parliament, he was desirous that no casual interrupt ion of that permission should occur. He was solicitous that as a change,had taken place in the circumstances of the country, and even in the charaeter of Parliament, that change should be ac companied by correspondent .changes in other re spetts. To prove that a change had taken place in' the character of that House, he need only refer to the discussion of the preceding evening, during which the influence of party and personal considerations was manifested to an indecent and 'unexampled ex tent. When it broadly was treated in the House of Commons, 'as a matter of reproach, that a genre sentative of the People belonged to no Party, such a statement was indeed evidence of a change, to which he thought the original practice .of _the House, in other respects, ought to conform. The Hon. Gen tleman had said, that the idea of a Representative Body carried along with it that of the confidence of the persons represented. He wished it night be so. Many people certainly thought that the -House of Commons did not possess the confidence of the country. Most assuredly it was an ill-advised mode of - obtaining the general confidence to shut the na tion out from obtaining information 'on an enquiry off the greatest magnitude, respettiug which the - most lively sensibility had been excited, and towards the result of.which every eye was steadily and.anxi ously dire&ed. _ Mr. WINDHAM explained. He never intended to attribute all thd changes that had taken place , during the last 30 years to the publicity of the pro ceedings of, Parliament, but had merely mentioned that publicity as one cause of those changes. Mr. You.KE, while he protested against the prin ciple of being called upon of right to st:lte the rea sons which had induced him to take the step that he had done, had no objection to state,the grounds of that proceeding. He had been influenced to en force the exclusion of strangers by what he 'conceiv ed an indispensable public duty, to prevent mistakes ano" misrepresentations sanlir to those which had formerly occurred of examinations at the Bar of the House. Reasoning by analogy, the presence of stranger's durieg an inquiry was indetenAble, for the House assumed the charaCter, and were about to pt-rform the fundiors of a grand inquest of the nation ; and when was it known that any person was admitted to be present at the examinations via Grand Jury ? FrOM this ordinary •principle, ho could see no reason tor departing. No " man cutd deny that the accidental errors (putting misrqn . er sensations' out of the question) which- aro,e-in re potting to the Public an ex.iminAtiOn at the Bar of that House, in the Pasty manner in which it was necessarily -done, must be produc,tive of, infinite misvhief. It he were asked why he had not en forced the Standing Order on . a 'former occasion, he would reply, that he deeply regretted nut having done so; and unquestionably he would have en forced it : on that'occasion, ,had he 3 entertained the smallest conception of t!,e nature and tendency of the case then brought betbre Parliament. He de precated any injudicious interference with the ancient - orders of the House. On the legiiiwate privileges .Of the House of Cotni - nons depended (under Provi dence) the safety of the commonwealth; - and it, as th. Noble Lord intimah.d ought to be done, those privileges were to b~ adapted to eve.ry.poputhr.fer went or feeling that might arise, they,would soon be trampled under foot, and Parliament would be rendered incapable of proteCting either themselves or the People.' Lord FULKSTONE,' in explanation, denied having said that the House ought to conform to'every po pular feeling of the moment. - It was singialar that lie should be censured tor attaching importance to popular sentiment by the same Honourable Gentie man, who, on a former occasion bad .warned him and his friends of the "danger • resulting to them _from the unpopularity of the, measures, which they. pursued. • Mr. YoItKE professed himself wholly ignorant of the Noble Lord's meaning. Lord FOLKSTOKE observed, that it was some few years ago, at the period of the peace of Amiens, when the Hon. Gentleman was ligh in office. Mr. YORKE did not recollect the circumstance. Mr. TIERNEY' dec!ared, that if he thought the motio'n of his Hon. - Friend infringed in the slightest degree upon the privileges of the- House, he would be the. first man to, oppose it. . But the nature of the motion had been utterly mistaken' ; it went rit , t to rescind the Standrilg Order, but to- r,.fer it. to the consideration of a Com:hi ;tee of For his own part, he was not Maiseft aware that the Order could be amended ; but as he , opposed his Hon. Friend_ was prepared to state in the Coin mittee his reasons for thinking tirit it tnight,-be: amended, he would support the motion C , ;it view alorie.,., Wiih respect to the enforcent of ? the exclusibn of strangers, in the pres'Ait he could not see its wisdom. When had suc'n s!ep been taken on stitch an occasion 2, ..Not :Aw ing the whole American tear, waen so many Min tary Inquiries took place. He was ac a to,s to conceive what incontenience could have arisen had the whole of the evidence taken belore . the Com mittee of Inquiry yesterday evening been published that morning. Had any misrepresentation occurred, he would have, been the first to notice it to the House; and - if it had been deemed advisable, the further publication of the proceedings 'inght have been prohibited without excldding the pubic from the gallery. He allowed that the reporting at the debaes in Parliament was attended with much in. convemeace. Hi Lad experienced a great deal of this in Irs own case. But lie wholly acquitted the reporters of blame. He accoined them, ,because it was evident that an accurate account of the pro ceedings would be the best calculated to sell the.! paper in which it was contained, and 'an accurate account, therefore, he did believe it was their honest wish to give. The Public had acquired a kind of right to know what was p a s s i ng _ i n th at House, _from the change which his Honourable Friend truly asserted had taken place within the last thirty years. When to per cent. was.dcdoded from the. income of esery man (a measure which would not have been ventured on thirty years ago), was it too. much that the public should know why , When lauge standing armies were maintained in the country, was it 10(1 much that 'the public sttoirld knew on what grounds they were maintained Yet [rpm this little luxury the general, enforcement of the Standing Order for the exclusion of strangers must inevitably shut them out.. If in a Cormnittee of privileges therefore any modification of the o;der could be hit upon in order to prevent capricious enforcement, would not such an emendation - be highly advantageous ?. And this without the least abandonment of the power which every Member possessed of clearing strangers Irom the gallery ,at any moment whatever, without any 'reason assigned.' The present inquiry was most important to the pub lic. Never had there been more complicated dis asters than those whichAuring the last )ear had be fallen three of-the finest armies -which Great Bri tain had ever produced. Wai it not fitting that the public should know in what way the House of Commons ,were carrying on the inquiry into these events ? If, in the Noble Lord's allusion to blame that be had incurred for not belonging to a ',arty he had pointed to any former expression of his, the Noble Lord bad misconceived him. Forhimself, he was a party man ; -be thought no good could be done without pdrty; he was 411istied, that for a Member of the House of Commons to come down and to ad upon his own principles without reference to concert with others, however theoretically right, was pratlically erroneous. He did not, however, • asperse-those who' thought differently although he could not help remarking that the Noble Lord did not seem to act entirely upon the principle which he professed, but to belong to what might perhaps be termed a third part in the House. , Mr. LITTLETON W3S adverse to the exclusion of strangers fronr the Gallery, and concurred in the motion far referring the subject to time consideration of a Committee of Privileges. _ Mr. P. MOORE was anxious to do justice to a class of as meritorious individuals as any-in- the country. He meant the Editors of Newspapers. .He was not acquainted with one of these Gentle men ; but in his opinion they had done as much to inform the public mind, as the public mind had heen informed by the discussions.in Parliament, or ,by any othos - means whatever. He did not under stand his. Hon. Friend's ftieory about the liberty of the press. If fettered in pradice it would no longer exist. It had once been said by a Minister to his Sovereign, " If we do not destroy the press, the press will destroy us." But that expression was used in tunes very different from the present. Now every Editor of a Newspaper was registered, and was forthcoming whenever the Attorney-Ge neral might choose to call upon hint to answer for any offence against the law. For his part he could not discern any thing in the condod of any of the Papers which justified the degrading language in which ks Hon. Friend had spoken of them. They were to the Public tl►e canals of iniarmation ; and tlie) paid annually above two millions in duties, be ing thus much more productive to the State - than the canals of commerce. With respe& to the ex clusion of strangers, was there any thing going for ward in the House ; of which they were ashamed ? Certainly not. Then why exclude the Public from heating their discussions ?.' Si' 1 4 % BURDUTT SLDJ,Clibvd to many of tile doc trines of the Hon. Gemleinim (Mr. Windham), because they were; purely consitutional, but they were totally inappin:able to the present circum stance. It the house of Co:utilons could return to its former pule a,,d itidependeOt stilte . ; if it could get rid at placeinen and pensioners, then in deed its doors might be stall against strangers. But unfortui]ately unit was noi toe case; unfortunately the public regarded it a ith an eye of great suspt-. cion—(Cries of LYo ! no !) That was a qnestion .! not to be decided by themselves. It had bceh that the House was on its last legs ; he would "add,. that •in point of reputation it had riot a leg to stand on. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHECLU . appealed to the Speaker wne:hzx such language could be used with iniptLsay The SPEAlcif cit - ciareil, that to utter-any declare : t ion that she tLiuse hau lost its - reputation, was cer• ttinly mo-t tiopariiamentary. ' Sir F. BuanETT i , ity.eeded to say, that in his ap prehension thy: FT sure did ,stand in that predica-. mem ; attd he tru tea • hat ise should not be pre vented from speaki ig the t:uth.within those walls. ' As t,, !he en:orcernen, of the Ofd , :rs of the House, the trunsaLai,i,sot the t Ith 01 May last were •:0 it was acknowledged that a Mili's:er had bas d.,•te.ted in unduly bringing in Meinl=ers or - l'aillament,,and in trafficking in seats, titan which nothing could be more destructive ofthe best privky , ut the House, it nrght perhaps be cx.pe..tetu.it less stress would.he laid upon the sa rrd chiracter of those Orders. He could see no obitction to the motion. The greatest ex . 121 . C1-1.1 •-f the pri‘ileges of the House'was the revi •.f its privtges. The Hon. Gentleman oppo. site had talked of misrepresentations . of the exami • natth,s in the Inquiry last Session, but he had not named one. 'Many advantages had resulted:from the publication in the Papers of the reports of the debates, which, in his opinion, were remarkalq exact, and executed with great ability ; so much so, that htt doubted whether, if any indi‘idual welt: pl, , ce.d by a:si horny at she table of the House for the :same purpose, the purpose would be answered with greater accuracy t •an it now was by the individuals in another part of the House, and who bid no mu live for concealing or disguising troth.• It did cer tainly appea rational, that lie who urged,a measure by which the Public -were deprived of the advan tagv of these reports, should at leas! spew a reason fOr his condu(i. Surely it was strange that an indi vidual should thus be- allowed to bring down odium on a whole_hody. Anxious as he (Sir F. Burdett) was for a reform of Parliament, and doing all he could to,promote it, it seemed to be against his own view to tecommend the House to keep as well as they could_ in the eye of the Public. By the exclusion, a great insult was offered to the country—it having • been previously determined that the Inquiry should be public. If the doors were to be shut, the House would do much better to send the whole to a Secret Committee, and pro ceed with the consideration of the other public business. Mr,. SHERIDAN declared that it was with great and unfeigned relwtance he availed himself of the indulgence which the ,House allowed the mover of any proposition to claim ; bu,t be felt that he'should. be deficient in reipea to his Honourable Friend near - him (Mr. Windham), as well as to the }louse 'apd• to the Pubic, were he to refrain from inaling . a hoTt reply to the arguments which .1.1.41 ilAt vaned against his motion. It was remarkable, that in, the discussion which had taken place, no Gentleman on the other side of the House, except the Honourable Mover of the exclusion, had par ticipated ; although he (Mr. Sheridan) had pointedly suggested to those Gentlemen that. it was for their honour, and had boldly declared his belief that it was their wiab,.the inquiry should be as public as possible: He was anxious to know whether or not they intended by their silence to shelter themselves under the extraordinary do trines that had.been pro-. leased by his Hon. Friend near himeand to intimate that they agreed with him in the singular positions which he had maintained. His Hon. Friendhad be gun his speech by criticising his (Mr. Sheridan's) absence from the House on former occasions dur-, ing the present Session. On this subject ,he_ must take:leave to judge for himself when his presence' in the ,Hpute waenecessary, and when note—His Hon. Friend had arraigned him for not being pre sent to support the charges which he stated had been proved against his • Mejesty's Ministers. On the first day of the Session he had attended, and had voted for tlre Atnendrrent. Since •that period be had been much occupied with private business; but he had a right, when ire felt that a question was agitating of, infinitely 'greae r ialportance than any question of a mere political nature could-pes sibly be,'to put aside his private business, and to at-- tend for the purpose of assisting in the determination of that question. Such was the present question.— , On the first day of the Session he had heard one side of the .Howe arraigning the other ai utterly in capable of fulfilling the duties of office. That might or might not be true. But the othet side retorted that they were at least as competent as their adver saries, and that they possessed at least an 'equal share of the public confidence. Now, for whir be knew, the country at large, with a very ci%il of impartiality, might believe both parties. The inference which he would draw from this circum stance was, that the House should guard against adding to the unfavourable impression which such mutual accusations were calculated to produce. 'His Hon. Friend had called him a counsel for the Press. If he was so, he was an unfeed one. He was proud of the appellat;on. But he confessed that he was a good deal surprised when his Honourable Friend put in his claim for a share of the distinction. Hon that ground his Honourable Friend meant to hug him in a fraternal embrace, he begged leave to decline the honour. " For myself," continued Mr. S. " have always been a friend to the Liberty of the Press. Give to. Ministers a servile House of Peers ; give them a venal and a pliant House of Com mons e=give them the keys of the Treasury and the patronage of the Crown ;.--..and then give me the Liberty of the Press ;—and with this mighty en gine destroy th edifice of corruption, and establish on its ruins the rights. and priviliges of the people I" His only object in the motion which be he had submitted to the House was, not to prevent . any individual Member from clearing the Gallery, but to require: that after he had dcee so, he should 'condescend to give some reason 14- the step. The Oentlemiin opposite said, "it was his hu mour. That wes the very thing of which he (Mr. Sheridan) complained. If, alter the exclusion of strangers, the House should acquiesce in the pro. priety of the motives lot that exclusion, the Public would then be satisfied. To some of the opinions .of his Hon. Friend, he had listened with the greatest regret, and even horror. For the - first time in his life, he had almost wished that the Public lord been excluded from hearing his opinions. The friendship which he had long entertained tot his Hop. Friend, and his iegard tor his Hon. F. ien.i'S character, and honour, struggling witty his own sense of public dory . , had nearly. induced , to regret that there was a single stranger present to listen to or report his sen timents. His Hon. Friend had assened a broad ge neral principle, that thepUbliCation of the proceed-. ings of Parliament was injurious to the country. Pa had declared, that when the doors of the Gallery of that House were cl.:sed, the country had done Well. He(Me. , , octet - lean) was not ofie of those who thought Lor spok e d es p on di ng ly o f t h e situation, or &grad,- ingly of the character of the country. On the con trary, he was of opinion that Great Britain stood on a proud emineuce, struggling as she was, and cessfully struggling as he hoped 6he would be, frr the liberties of the world. That honourable spirit by which the people of England were animated in this greet contest, he attributed to the Lie berty ot the Press‘generally, and most particularly and emphatically to the liberty of reporting and, publishing the inehates and proceedings inParliatuent. But his Hon. Friend had again set- tip the old buggy bear, and &id chira6lerisedtnis prattice as mischiev 'ous, and leading t' revolutionary dot - trines, and to the nudervaloing of the b.essiugs of the British Con stitUtion. The liberty of he pres 4 lead to revolution ary doctrines ! Was it the liberty el the press which brought on the French revolution ? Was it not rather the extinguishing of every opportonit . t by the press ofgiving vein to complaiole,whichproduced that evettt? What had occasioned the fall of all tire :ot ten monar- Chies of Europe ? Was it the liberty of the press ? No ! It was the absence of that liberty. .1f thaltbeity oldie press had existed in France,-in Austria, in Prussia, in Spain, those countries would not now he enduring the oppressive domination of a Buonaparte. The analogy that the Hon. Gentleman opposite had at. tempted to draw between the Committee ot Inquiry and a Grand Jury ,was unfounded,-even on his own spewing'; for that I-lon. Gentleman admitted, that ,the information _afforded to the Committee should ultimately be published. Now, a Grand Jury peter published its examinations. Why ? Lest they should influence the Petty Jory who were al ter wards to try the accused. Besides, he under• stood, that on the other evening; when after the exciu..ion of strangers froor the Gallery, several Peers remained for some time below the Bar of the House, notwithstanding the general i:ry to withdraw. The Noble Lord—fie begged the Hop. Gentleman's pardon, although considering his attachment to No blemen, he might prouably soon be.entttled 10 that appellation ; the Hon. Gem. was willing:to acquiesce" in their stay. The Hon. Gent. theretOre refused to allow those individuals to remain in the House woo were not immediately inteiested in the question, while he hart tin objection to allow others to stry to whom the transaction 'might herealer be submit - . - ed in their judicial capacity, and whose minds the ends of justice theretbre essentiady required should be kept as tree aS possible tram undue 4thipartml ini vrosigPs. Mr.. Sheritt4n concluded a WA brilliant 11 !, The I tbe Rep Morrow t e o r? \ t i e l s d tar t ia l l 4 4 Were re llenditui The i i tself in Lord then le gested I t he Ho' Ev Stood tl ed by Twelve. ruursd Con; ^,-.. Th I t WO Pretic tdfe 4 'ettes from surre; iliat ( succe it orn the t l og P days, 4ht!it i' s ren of th AND 110 w Vera COUt that two that the clus neg I of ;