The Sun. — London, England, 1838-06-02 00:00:00

XATAL RIOT NEAR CANTERBURY. (From the Ti mes .) CA. (From FRIDAY EVENING.—.I send you herewith a report of the ilnquest held this day at the White Horse, a public.house in F,hton, on the body of Nicholas Hears. It terminated, as you will "es be a verdict of wilful murder against sundry of the rioters. It aPPazars, however, from all that I have heard, that the rioters fought with, the most desperate courage, and that had their weapons been at al l c asual to those of their antagonists the struggle would not hav e ""en ao easily d ec i ded. They rushed on the bayonets of the soldiery with the rage of fanatics; and this will not surprise you when I inform Pau that this Courtenay or Tom had represented himself to them not ' ° , 2it Y as a politi ca l but also as a religious reformer. He blasphemously styles himself the Saviour of the world, and to convince his followers 4 4at lie was so, pointed to certain punctures in his hands as those in flicted by the nails of the cross, and to a cicatrice in his side as thewound out of which issued blood and water. He also represented himself as in rUlnerable to steel or shot ; and so completely has he deluded num bers in the neighbourhood into the belief of his monstrous lies that they even now fancy that though he appears dead he will rise again on i s third day, and lead his fellowers on to victory. A woman of the land aame of Culver was told by this impostor that if she got some water placed it on his mouth in case he was shot, he would shortly revive. 'On hearing of his death the woman filled a vessel with water, walked half :arnile w i th it, and in compliance with his instructions placed it on his i ps• She was app re h en d e d soon afterwards by order of the magistrates, 'Who i magine that he r ev id ence w ill l ea d to the arrest of more of the rioters. Verily there is occasion that the schoolmaster should be sent abroad in this district. In a shed near the Red Lion, at Bun oughton-der-I3lean, which is two ! rti tes nearer to Canterbury, were placed the body of this Courtenay, or "Me, and of the six poor wretches whom he has betrayed to so mise rable an end. There was great anxiety shown to get a sight of them, Part; mularly of Courtenay. When I was at the place Courtenay's body tree been removed to the Red Lion itself, and was undergoing medical a mination. The her bodies, however, were lying cold and stark on o h o straw. Th ey were evidently all common labourers in agriculture with lie exception—that of a man who was shot through the heart, and i n whose breast the perforation of the bullet was distinctly visible. The *Yes of all were wide open, and the glare of them from being stripped of all intelligence was horribly frightful. One only was killed by the 'Met. Judging from their looks, I should say that the men were all oily years of age. I have already said that Courtenay's body -I ; but I am informed that it exhibits great and even castle aiscular powers. His stature was tall, his form symmetrical, lures expressive. He wore a great mass of hair, and allowed so grow to a most preposterous length. Since his death his been shaved, lot the purpose of allowing a plaister cast to lie is face; and I have heard, such is the veneration in which We bold him, that various sums of money have been offered to ,k of his hair, and a fragment of the blood-stained shirt in led. The women, with whom he was a prodigious favourite, relicts with the greatest avidity, and are described as receiving the most enthusiastic devotion. of Lieutenant Benett was also clepositcd at the same public_ , g the day. It was conveyed in a hearse to Canterbury this its fate is universally lamented. He was a very fine-looking the only son of an Irish gentleman of good fortune and .c has died with the reputation of having been an excellent perfect gentleman. The shot which killed him made but a are in entering his right side, but created a dreadful lama mg out on his left. llrs servant is said to have avenged Isis sting Courtenay instantly through the brain. That madman, tave stated, has the marks of two musket-wounds in his head, _on his left shoulder, and another on his left thigh. Mr. ,rgast also made a cut at him with his sword as he rusted to the e of his frie n d M r. B enett ; but he was k noc k e d down by some of 6nrtenay's leuageon-men, and severely wounded in the head and arms, -ct that his blow did not take effect. As he fell, however, he inflicted a kaere wound on one of the rioters. fo nod 1 Mae bf • for adding, that the village of Boughton s per laps e orgis en Slits day an extraordinary contrast to the general appearance of ',Pact 'tt hat vill age . A company o f the 45th Regiment were under tl i ns ther e f rom an early hour in the morning, as there was some notion l e , t an attempt mi g ht b e ma d e to rescue the prisoners confined at the : a tte H orse. N othing of the kind however occurred. The rioters I, ‘ ' h o . re kept i n a room at the back of the inn, and the scene in the yard, i ch Was filled with their weeping and fainting wives and children, T i e been d escribed to me as heart-rending. Four of them were sent, at T close of the inquest, under a military escort, to Maidstone gaol. e r est, being twenty-three in number, were sent in two omnibuses to esa_versham gaol, the rioters being placed inside, and the soldiers, with -usketa loaded and bayonets fixed, on the roof. The last party left the village at seven o'clock. kin k has already been stated th a t , b es id es C ourtenay, seven r i oters were 'adfr by the li re o f t h e soldiery; seven others were also wounded. Two tu ese men, lam informed, are now dying. The ville of Dunkirk, outtio w hich most of th em came, labours under a most disgraceful repu it M The risen are said to be most of them poachers, and of the women ta rtr. n ough to say, th at they had their reasons for making Coln tenay nen favourite. ha s , lea" a 'reday mentioned the desperate frenzy with which these de wretches fought. One of them, who was made prisoner, was „ ii 1 how it was that h e h a d t h e b oldness to resist the military. His te e Y \v as, " that he had no fear ; that lie cared not for the numbers of atr tsoaldiers ; that he felt that he wes, like his leader, invulnerable ; thi g o,t h the just went on to the fight like a bulldog." As a pendant to ne ctlote, which I have introduced rather . out of place, I will men- NrtSion acaoltheiewhich shows the coolness of these desperadoes. After te a s n Hen, one of the rioters, tha only one who had a gun, I,4l:tahen taking a cool a i m a t M a j or Armstrong, but before he could -e trigger a fortunate shot lay him as dead as his redoubted leader INQUEST ON NICHOLAS MEARS. J ohn M ears , pl um b er, in the parish of Boughton.—ls a constable. Ye sterday morning p rocee d ed towards Bosenden, towards the residence . ' 4 one William Culver, for the purpose of executing three warrants ! e l' the apprehension of William Courtenay, alias John Tom, William ;',Tilis and Edward Newman ; was accompanied by Daniel Ed _ 'yards and Nicholas Mears, whom he had called to his assistance; 1 144 he arrived near the house he saw William Price, William ,n,'r f ord, Thomas Mears, a li as T y l er, an d several ot h ers; heard some I,, ' „' , Y, "Is that them!" and on getting over a stile in front of the Cons , William Courtenay made his appearance and said,you the 1 e. 14 ,b1e ?" At the same moment deceased and witness answered .1 1 ,., 7 All the persons but Courtenay had bludgeons. Courtenay ,4:eaediately Presented a pistol at the deceased, and fired. The de -oiirt then rested on a f ence, and shortly afterwards fell to the ground. 1, 4 e nay then s t ruc k at the witness with a dagger which he had in his ,hand but missal him. Wi tness t h en ran away, and was followed iiiourtenay, but succeeded in escaping, as Courtenay was near falling. i i . ' l ess then went to Faversham, and o b ta i ned warrants against Wi1.;,441 .;,441 C ourtenay, Willi am P r ice, William Bu r f or d , and Thomas Hears " 144'its TYlee, fo r th e w ilful murder of Nicholas Me ars . H av i ng the war be obtained the assistance of Dr. Poore and Mr. Knatchbull, : h " he Was accompanied by a gr ea t num b er o f p e rs ons t o ass i s t hi m ; ConeY proceeded to Fairbrook-field, its the parish of Boughton. :der..131,ar,, and there saw a body of men a b out f orty or f i fty 'I nuraber, armed with bludgeons. He distinctly was W. Courtenay present something at two gentlemen, Major Handley and the Rev. 41r. Handley, who were passing at the time, and then he heard a report of a pistol. Courtenay's men then proceeded towards the place where ..itness's br o th er had been shot in the morning: he recognized at this ti me a labou r i ng man, William 'Wills, and Thomas Mears, who was :...rrned with a bl u d geon. He then proceeded towards the Red Lion, on beturn pike-road, and th ere saw a large body of soldiers. Before the arty left th e os i er-bed at Fairbrook, lie heard a bugle sound, and the ?.215 immediately formed in marching order, directed by Courtenay, and = d ame towards the House of Mr. Francis, at Fairbrook, and then 0r,,,4be round the road to the wood towards Bosenden. Witness accom. 7 _ (led about 50 soldiers up the road towards Bosenden, M. Knatchbull ni. others still being with him ; and hearing a noise in the wood, they te,...e ,ediately turned into a road leading into the wood, and when they pro h'eded about half a mile saw Courtenay's party. We recognised among -1,,,tw0 men named Wraight, alias Ford, Thomas Mears, Wm. Wills, v_ymiant Rye, Henry Hadlow, Spratt, Edward Curling, Phineas liar c%; William Burford, Thomas Griggs, and Gauge. He also saw t , s u ertenay with them, having a pistol in his right hand. One of the on ers approached them, and Courtenay called to his company to come lb, .Courtenay immediately got within a stride of the officer, presented t4'll:Istol at him, fired it off, and killed him on the spot; the order was Avi lle g i ven to the soldiers to fire, and they obeyed. Saw . William tea a ,' v ery active at this time, assisting and defending William Cour :t s ,'' i tile entire body of inen then came forward with their bludgeons 11, , , lent ly and resolutely attacked the soldiers and the other persons taii ntl 7 ere asse m bl e d t o ass i st t h e mag i strates. Willi am C ourtenay %,, a t 0 the m en to follow him up close, or something to that effect, tat 1 2, 5 Y did so ; up on th e so ldi ers fi r i ng , Willi am C our t ena y an d seve 1, "Letincled his followers f e ll, some b e i ng kill e d on th e sno t , an d o th ers • Were • great confusion ensued for some time, when several persons to 6,, taken pris oners, w h o are now i n custo d y : t h e soldiers continued si,„,!ti n til the men d es i s t e d f rom th e i r a tt ac k , an d t h en an officer de. ` l 3 tile soldiers to desist, which they immediately did. Ftab i atli el Edwards, of Boughton.under.Blean, labourer and petty con. . th e, gave similar evidence. Iste, e Il ev• Charles Richard Handley, of Herne-bill :—Yesterday, be 'ti en eleven and twelve o'clock, I saw a large body of men proceeding !er., Use direction of Mr. Francis's house, at Fairbrook, towards the •bed a !It _ • Accompanied by his brother, Benjamin Handley', he rode tia v. ,' a dow adjoining the csicr- bed, where he saw a large party of persons. ,warY shortly afterwards saw Courtenay, whom he knew. Advanced ttra,l: a arty near Mr. Francis's house ; this party was the ma_ ' 8 ( lconstables. Courtenay more than once called them cowards, , arced close to the osier bed, addressed the men, and ex to leave Courtenay, as he had murdered one of their neigh. 'as guilty of high crimes and misdemeanours, and that unless !hey would get into great trouble. Courtenay again re_ to osier -bed, where witness was wills his brother, and I plant a ball in your heart, Sir." Witness was about ids from him at the time; Isis brother said to Courte. I are a madman ;" and Courtenay immediately fired at his brother said, " We want to come to a parley with you ,en." Courtenay then turned round in an insulting man. 'sled to the osier bed. His brother then addressed the men, :hey were guilty of high treason. Witness again addressed tame effect, and then went round into the Faversham -road le party of Magistrates and constables before mentioned. ' - . -• • . --- aA,ance from the osier-bed ,brook, passing at the distance of wainr wal l yards, their head, and all walking singly. Saw amongst them ight, Thomas Mears, alias Tyler, Edward Wraight, the I Curling, Noah Miles, Charles Hadlow, and a youths iadlow. As they passed witness he again addeesed them, *al by name, to wit, Charles Hadlow, Noah Miles, Nraight, and begged of them to leave Courtenay. ',pall Miles if he had any regard for Isis family to leave Miles replied he had regard for his family ; Hadlow made I he did not hear. From what witness heard and saw he led that the civil power was insufficient to quell the dis. it would have been imprudent for Mr. Knatchbull and his ipt the apprehension of Courtenay and the other persons warrants had been issued. awe, of Selling; yeoman, was fully satisfied from what the civil power could not quell the riot, and that it was ab sary to call in the military ; end, its fact, if the military • 6, , he was decidedly of opinion that much more blood seen shed than there had been, and was confirmed in this manlier in'which the peasantry attacked the military. ten returned a verdict of " Wilful murder against William serwise John Tom (dead), William Burford (dead), Wil eaurnt_ ~. somas Mears, otherwise Tyler, cousin . of the deceased eased ' eti,e;e), Alexander Foad (wounded), and William Nutting." The 4, 4 Were th her 1 )04; _ en committed to Maidstone Gaol. The inquests on the 'e will be proceeded with to it (Saturday.) tj - —_l 'his G eia -11 T8 AND SHADOWS OF IRISH LIFE.- ti,,,, , W tt ork . is well timed. It has already obtained very marked atten_ e'ner r icul arly in Ireland. " Mrs. Hall," says a Dublin critic, " has I) r i. nve ß t , ' i vat inly into her subject, and the fidelity of her portraitures : 1 ,43 hi,„ at they are drawn from Nature. She depicts Paddy as she 4--;'tie o ":, warm hearted and generous, but fickle, wayward, and vola ;'''cl` in his sensibility to kindness, sudden in his resentment of in_ the Wroi h e air l g. Her " Lights and Shadows" are blended together like w ern at , e h ave '' rich humour and natural gushing pathos of his Irish heart. t% u ,„ "w a mirthful sketch—anon a tale of woe ; and all written ;,,orime,7afcreane intention of colouring, not highly but truly, the na er, wrltacter, In Mrs. Hall's brief Preface, she says the sketches 4 40 br o , en a fter a long absence in England, when a visit to her native rai r , ght up re miniscences from the sepulchre of memory, " like a t hey ar : 1 1 almost forgotten music." Touchingly, exquisitely natural abode forty (lid not see "nrcitnary mt 11 4 11 his feat hi s beard to , bead has bel 1 taken of hi ' 4 ltribers hei o btain a loci. khich he tilt seek these r: them with t body • .ruse durin; Cvening, man, , Ile e%eer anti a Nht Punch, " 1 ° t ioti in pas,,,i t r ate bY eaoot 11 gbt to one a 4kscue of his — "ate s r \Vi t and c, ne s , adva l te u , )1 1 ,. d "ern tc tbp s iaml was tttshl'i . soth Ned to the , ' will aye 3 0 yard You ,4 oth er ; N it your Inch tek, 41,1 retu rn th,r4"g them tl 1 , 4,1 . t 0 the sa .At tisl?thed the t o ' t,,ter g , lsirlJ Kiliia aY at ti *1,14ml Kuig 41 Ao •Alin anted He 6 °verst ask--d t va_ rd 4 Ur t , i 7 Xoal 4 1)1 aY * nhi Which sat', 4fie, 1:,! t rt y 4he e, and i attemp E who m v 11, ft' krtes `ear %, 14 - t * that th e 4 4, necess a by 14 4, 44 ; called th' ha ve be] ,therjesnlute ,otlr e 4,) the hahl „ N Y, otM (11 , 1 ELECTION COMMITTEES YESTERDAY. - (From our Second Edition of last night.) WESTMEATH. Tim arguments of Counsel were not concluded till a quarter past four. MAIDSTONE. The Committee met this afternoon at two o'clock, Sir J. C. Hobhouse in the chair. Mr. Austin and Mr. Cockburn appeared for the petitioners; Mr. The siger, Mr. Talbot, and Mr. Warren, for the sitting Member. Mr. AUSTIN said this was a petition against the return of Mr. Fector, fur the borough of Maidstone. The total amount of the constituency was 1,600, onesthird of whom were the old freemen, the residue consisting ofpersons who derived a right to vote under the Reform ACt. Mr. Lewis and Mr. D'lsraeli were returned at the last general election. Mr. Lewis died in March last, whereby the present vacancy was created. On Tues day, the 27th March, the election took place, and Mr. Fector was re turned in opposition to Mr. Robarts, and against that return the petition was now presented. The petition contained char . ges of bribery and treat ing, and, he would call the attention of the Committee precisely to the issues contained in the petition. The first charge was that Mr. Fector by himself, his agents, managers, and friends, was guilty of bribery and treating. There was also another allegation, which was a very important one, that notorious and extensive bribery existed at the late election, and that the return of the present sitting Member was procured by means of bribery and treating. The Tory party at Maidstone was called the Purple party, and the business of that party for some years had been conducted by a standing Association or Committee, whose meetings were held at a room over the Corn-Exchange. Amongst the indivi duals composing that Committee were Mr. IViekham, the managing clerk of the brewery; Mr. Potts, wine -merchant; Mr. Pike, auctio neer ; Mr. Frankley, Mr. Day, Mr. Randall, and Mr. Hollings worth. There were several others whose names would appear in the course of the enquiry, but which it was unnecessary for him at present to mention. The news of the late Member's death reached Maidstone on the 15th March, and immediately afterwards a meeting was held at which Mr. Randall, head-clerk to Messrs. Mercer, bankers, and Mr. Hollingsworth, were deputed to pro ceed to London in search of a candidate. They were so expeditious in their movements, that they returned to Maidstone about twelve o'clock the same night with Mr. Fector, who took up his quarters at the Bell Inn. The next morning the canvass commenced, and continued until the 26th before any opponent appeared, and during that time a con stant correspondence was kept up between the Committee and Mr. Fector. There were many persons who had voted at the general election for Mr. D'lsraeli under strong inducements, but the promises made to them had not been fulfilled. These persons, when pressed to vote for Mr. Fector, deslined doing so, until the old scores had been wiped ofl, and in these cases money was ',aid. There was no doubt of this being bribery, as distinctly as if the money had been given fresh for the immediate vote, for these persons would not have voted for Mr. Fector if they had not received the money. On the 26th the nomination took place, when Mr. Robarts Was proposed, and there was such a strong expression of feeling in his favour, that it was quite clear sonic strong means must he taken to counteract that feeling, or he would become the sitting Member. The polling day was the 27th. The polling began at 8 o'clock, and at 9 arr. notiarts was 78 a-head. This was an awful and serious wattling deserving of the attention of the Committee, and of Mr. lector. Some of these gentlemen, accordingly, saw Mr. lector at the Bell Inn, and it was resolved that they should go to work. They did go to work —votes were. bought in all directions—the work was, accomplished, the state of the poll altered, and about one lock such had been the effect of these operations, that Mr. Fector was his ahead. He should be able to show the Committee a series of cases in which 101. to 151. had been given to voters to poll, and as to treating that was carried on most ex tensively, for public houses were opened throughout the town, and at the Castle Inn on the morning of the election from thirty.eight to forty voters were congregated; and in addition to the treating which they re ceived, he was instructed that 101. per vote were paid to all those persons. He would now but in the vote books, and to-morrow morning proceed with the evidence to prove the facts which had been stated. Mr. Prrus, the Mayor of Maidstone, at the last election, stated that at the close of the poll he received the poll books from the different booths and afterwards handed them to the Town Clerk. Mr. Smyth, the Town Cleik of Maidstone, produced the poll-books. The Committeeadjournecl until eleven o'clock Saturday morning. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 1. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at the usual hour. IRISH NATIONAL EDUCATION. The Bishop of DERBY presented petitions against the national sys em of education in Ireland. Several private Bills were brought up from the Commons. NEGRO SLAVERY. Lord BROUHAM presented petitions against Negro slavery, from Carlisle, Belfast, Brecknock, Leith, Perth, Doncaster, Southampton, and a variety of p!aces in Devon, Cumberland, Bedford,Cambridge (Isle of Ely), Aberdeenshire, Brecon, Lancashire, Northumberland, Somersetshire, Stirlingshire. Herefordshire, Dumbartonshire, Rutlandshire, Pembroke shire, Hampshire, Montgomeryshire. Among the names of places which we heard were—Edinburgh, Carrickfergus, Stockport, Newcastle upon. Tyne, Sheffield, Caermarthen, Devonport, Lanark, Weymouth, Ayles bury, Bridgnorth, Cupar, Woodbridge (Suffolk), Merthyr Tidvil, Paisley, and Scarborough. From the time occupied by the Noble and Learned Lord in the presentation of these petitions, they must have at least amounted to 200. SCOTCH CHURCH—ADDITIONAL ENDOWMENTS. The NOBLE and LEARNED LORD proceeded to present a great Mll ber of petitions against any Additional Endowments to the Church of Scotland ; among other places, from Ayr, Dunbar, Cupar, Leicester, Newcastle-on Tync, Annan, Wigton, Perth, Berwick, Lanark, South Shields, and Hexham. IRISH POOR. LAW. His Lordship also presented a petition from Cork against the Irish Poor Law Bill. The Duke of WELLINGTON laid upon the table the amendments he intended to move in this Bill. NATIONAL EDUCATION. Lord BROUGHAM, in presenting a petition from Liver pool, signed by upwards of 6,000 persons, in favour of a truly national system of education, said he wonld as soon as possible after the recess bring in his Bill upon this important subject. BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION. The Earl of RIPON, in presenting a petition signed by '2OO persons, who were inhabitant householders and rate-payers in the town of Bir mingham, against the grant of a charter of incorporation to that place, considered it a question of considerable importance, because of course this case turned upon the same points which would generally arise upon every application to the Privy Council for a charter. He apprehended it to be clear that the Act only intended that the charter should be granted in those cases where the application came from a majority of the inhabitant householders who were rated. Now, it appeared that the present petition, which had been presented to the Privy Council, praying for a corporation, had not been siE fled by one-tenth of the in habitants, and of them who did sign a great number were not rate payers. Commissioners had properly enough been sent down to inquire into the facts of the case, and though they had made a report, and re peated applications had been made by the gentlemen who had signed the present petition, and at whose instigation the Commission had been ap. pointed, to be allowed to see that report, he understood that application had not been complied with. He thought that the petitioners had just right to complain of such conduct. The petition was then read. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought that any petition express. ing the opinion of the inhabitants, even though not pate-payers, of the town from which it came, ought to be treated with deference upon any question relating to that town—(Bear, hear)—but at the same time, he readily admitted that the ultimate conclusion of the Privy Council as to such an application as the present should be governed by the majority of the inhabitant householders, who were rate-payers. But there was another matter which ought to be taken into consideration, and he should be wrong to recommend her Majesty to grant a corporation in any in stance without first referring not only to the majority of rate-payers, but also to the amount of assessment. But when it was extremely difficult to discover on which side the preponderance lay, as in the case of Bir mingham, from the conflicting statements that were made, it was im possible for the Privy Council to enter into the investigation here with. out enormous expense and delay ; and he had, therefore, thought it ex pedient to send persons, properly instructed, to examine into the verifi cation of the facts stated. In the detision of those Commissioners he had perfect confidence; they had furnished a detailed report, and upon the recommendations therein contained, the Privy Council had pro. seeded to act. After a few words from Lord Wharncliffe, Lord Lyndhurst, the Marquis of Lansdowne, Lord Brougham, and Lord llolland, the peti tion was received. Lord BROUGHAM had two questions to put to the Noble Lord at the head of the Colonial department. He grieved to see that two per sons in Canada—Lount and Matthews—had suffered the extreme pe nalty of the law. The first question lie had to ask was, whether the Government had any knowledge of the conviction of the offenders be fore the execution of the sentence, or whether there was any previous communication with the Government on the subject? The other ques tion was, whether these individuals had been tried by the new laws passed by the Assembly or by the ordinary laws? Lord GLENELG said that the knowledge of the conviction of these individuals was received a few days before the day on which the sentence was to be carried into execution. This, be thought, was a satisfactory answer to the first. question of the Noble and Learned Lord. With re spect to the second question, he could say that Lount and Matthews had been tried and convicted under the ordinary laws. The Bishop of EXETER presented several petitions in favour of the abolition of slavery. THE DISTURBANCES IN KENT. The Earl of WINCHILSEA was desirous of asking the Noble Viscount whether he had received any official communication respecting the release of the unfortunate man who bad created so much disturbance in the county of Kent ? This individual had before been convicted of the gross offence of perjury, and had been placed in a lunatic asylum, from which he bad since been released. The question he had to ask was, whether any communication had been received from the magistracy or gentry of the county for the release of this parson ? The magistrates, he (the Earl of Winchilsea) believed were all of opinidn that it was ex tremely dangerous to set such a person free. Viscount MELBOURNE stated that the lunatic in question had been sentenced to an imprisonment of two or three years for perjury. He way lnCll7 i. rtno wac gout to a lunatic asylum but, afterwards, was ordered to be released by the Secretary of State, on an understanding having been entered into by his family that they would take care to restrain him from those eccentricities in which he had so long indulged. He was quite sure that his Noble Friend would be anxious to lay on the table of the House a statement of the grounds on which he acted in the case in question. TITHES IN IRELAND. Lord CARBERY presented a petition, signed by the grand jury of the county of Cork, praying for the settlement of the Irish Tithe ques tion. The Noble Lord presented similar petitions from several places in the same county. The Bishop of DERRY was understood to concur in the prayer of the petitions, and to express a desire for a well-considered settlement of the question. CUSTODY OF INFANTS' BILL. Lord LYNDHURST gave notice that on the 16th instant he would move the second reading of the Custody of Infants' Bill. The Earl of FINGAL presented a petition from Shrule, in Ireland, for the abolition of negro slavery. IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR moved that this Bill should be com mitted pro forma. . - The Earl of WICKLOW wished to know why the provisions of this Bill were not extended to Ireland. The LORD CHANCELLOR felt that it would be desirable to do so, but this could not be done in the same Bill. The Bill was then committee pro forma, and the House resumed. The House then adjourned to Thursday next. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 31. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. i‘ from the Court of Q ueen's Bench, presented r certain F re ° t N uL LAQ s N of uE' writs of trial. Mr. BRAMSTON brought up the Report of the Committee on tt e Great Warley (Essex) Inclosure Bill. Colonel RUSHBROOKE brought up the R e p ort of the Committee on the Gazeley (Suffolk) Inclosure Bill, whi c h was ordered to be en. gros F ed. EASTERN COUNTIES RAILWAY AMENDMENT BILL.: Mr. C. G. ROUND moved the second reading ot‘the Eastern Counties Railway Amendment Bill. No Members rising to oppose, Mr. ROUND XOSC again, so observed that the disiutes bete et en the Company and Lord Petre and Mr. Labouchere, which had led to some opposition to a second reading on a former occasion, had been amicably adjusted. The Bill was then read a second time. Mr. DOTTIN brought up the Report of the Committee on the Southampton Pier Bill, which was ordered to be engrossed. Mr. Alderman WOOD presented the Report of the Committee on the Greenwich Railway and Pier Bill. Sir JOHN MORDAUNT brought up the Report of the Committee on the Leamington Priors Gas Bill. On the motion of Mr. CHALMERS the Lintlithgow Roads Bill was read a third time and passed. SOUTHAMPTON DOCKS. On the motion of Mr. DOTTIN the Southampton Docks Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. BRA MSTON presented several petitions from parishes in Essex, against the alienation of Church property. Mr. BARNARD presented a petition from Woolwich against the union of that parish under the Poor-law Bill. Mr. G. BERKELEY presented a petition from Gloucester, praying for a uniform rate of postage. Mr. ESTCOURT presented a petition from the clergy of Sarum against the alienation of Church property. Mr. W. EVANS presented petitions from Evesham and other places against idolatrous worship. Lord J. STUART presented a petition from Salcoats, against any further endowment to the Church of Scotland. Mr. CHALMERS presented a petition from Montrose against the Irish Salmon Fisheries Bill; also, a petition from the same place, complain ing of the state in which the Reform Bill left the representation in Scotland, and praying that some means might be adopted to remedy the defects that existed. Mr. HINDLEY presented petitions from Ashton-under-Lym e, complaining of the injurious operation of the present Beer Act; also a petition against the further existence of Negro slavery. Mr. CRESSWELL presented a petition from Liverpool signed by 5,000 persons, praying for a reduction of postage. Mr. BAINES presented a petition from Leeds praying for an alteration in the Factory Act; also one from the Corporation of Leeds, complain ing of the operation of some clauses in the Municipal Reform Act, re. lating to the admission of freemen. Mr. VILLIERS presented a petition from Wolverhampton in favour of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan. THAMES NAVIGATION. Mr. LEADER presented a petition from the Free Watermen re siding in the united parishes of St. Margaret's and St. John's, West minster, praying that their rights should be conside re d i n any Act to be pas s ed for the Navigation of the Thames. Mr. CLAY presented a petition from the inhabitants of the Tower Hamlets, complaining of the operation of the Highway Rates Bill. Mr. C. LUSIIINGTON presented a petition from the Synod of Edin burgh, against idolatrous ceremonies in India. IRISH EDUCATION. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON presented a petition against the National system of Irish Education. Sir R. PEEL moved that the Select Committee upon petitions should have liberty to bring up their Report, and the evidence taken before them.—Agreed to. The Right Hon. Baronet then brought up the Report and the evidence. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL it was ordered, that the House at its rising do adjourn till Wednesday next. Lord G. SOMERSET wished to ask the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Gordon) what course he intended to pursue with respect to the Dean Forest Bill ? Mr. GCR.DON said that it was his intention to proceed with the Bill to-night, if he found that he had an opportunity of doing so at a reasonable hour. If he had not, he should then move for a Committee, proforma, and ask for the appointment of an early day for the farther consideration of the Bill. Mr. WARD gave notice that he should on Tuesday, the 9th of June, move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the 27th clause of the Reform Bill. Among the provisior.s of that Bill would be one that the Paying of the rates of dwelling.houses would be the condition of voting. Mr. H. JOHNSTONE gave notice that, on Thursday next, he should present a petition from the Church of Scotland. He should also at th., same time move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the p:esent mode of elections in Scotland. Mr. GIBSON gave notice that he should on that day fortnight move for certain returns relative to the Synod of the University of London. The Honourable Member then begged to ask the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department, if he had received any information of the preliminary arrangements in the University of London, so as to afford an idea of when they would begin conferring degrees. The Charter had been granted in 1836, and the public were wondering that the time had not arrived for conferring degrees. Lord JOHN RUSSELL believed the arrangements were nearly com pleted. THE RIOT AT CANTERBURY. Mr. PLUMTRE begged to ask the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Horne Department a question relative to the terrible and sanguinary affray that had taken place near Canterbury.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to know if the individual who was the chief author of that melancholy business was not a decided madman, and for some been confined in a lunatic asylum in the County of Kent. He wished to know by whose authority that individual had been set at liberty Lord JOHN RUSSELL said with regard to the occurrence that had taken place he could only say, that the accounts received by the Government from the magistrates and the military authorities coincided in most particulars with the public accounts with which the Hon. Gentleman was already acquainted. With respect to the person who was the chief cause of that unfortunate occurrence, he was found guilty of perjury in the year 1833, at the assizes for the county of Kent. He was then said to be of unsound mind, and was confined from the year 1833, in the County Asylum. Towards the latter end of last year his father informed him (Lord John Russell), as Secretary of State, that although his son exhibited some degree of unsoundness of mind, yet he had not been found guilty of any criminal act of violence, and he stated that he would take charge of him, and would be responsible for his safe keeping. Upon that representation he (Lord John Russell) directed immediately that the committing Magistrate should give an account of his state of mind, and an account was forwarded by the surgeon of the Asylum, that he was certainly still of unsound mind, fancying himself Sir Wm. Courtenay, a Knight of Malta, and other erroneous impressions. There was nothing to show that there was any thing dangerous in the character of his madness, and he had no reason to doubt that the person who was his father, and who was represented to him as a man of very good character, could undertake the chargeof his son ; upon these representations and upon that engagement the person was discharged. The father afterwards went to the Lunatic Asylum and represented that his son was to be given up to any one ilQnamcd, and lie appointed a person in the county of Kent, who appeared to be unfit for the charge of a person in that unfortunate condition. The person had been convicted of perjury, and it was for thai crime ; there had been nothing at all previous to show that he was of a violent temper or in any way given to violence. Under these cir cumstances he (Lord J. Russell) consented to the wishes of the father and upon his undertaking to take care of him. Sir J. SINCLAIR wished to know from the Noble Lord, whethet• there was any connection between these riots and the Poor-law Bill, a s was attempted to be made out in some quarters. Lord J. RUSSELL fully believed, although he had not sufficient in formation to give a direct answer —he fully believed that there was in real connection between them. Among other topics the New Poor. law Bill was one of the subjects used by the unfortunate person to de. lode those who followed him. A pei son in such circumstances was apt to take advantage of any law for any cause of exciteirent that existed at the time.—(Hear.) Mr. PLUMTRE did not believe that the Poor-law 13111 formed any prominent subject in the addresses of this person to the people. — (Hear.) That he was a madman there was no doubt, and i t was in his (Mr. Plumtre's) own knowledge that formerly when he was at liberty, he drew astonishing embers after him, and he certainly thought that it was very singular and very much to be deplored that he was set at liberty. Sir It. VIVIAN had been applied to upon this subject by an Honourable Friend, a Member of that House, who h e was sorry not to sec in his place, who stated that the family and friends of the unfortunate person were very respectable, and that they were very desirous of having him under their care. The application was also joined by the wife of the person. In answer to the petition which he (Sir It. Vivian) had presented, the Noble Lord was very particular in his enquiries before granting the prayer of it, and it was then only granted on condition that the father should take charge of him himself. Sir R. PEEL—I wish to ask whether, previous to the actual collection of the persons which led to the unfortunate collision of the military, the magistrates made any representation to the Noble Lord that this individual was occupied in agitating the mind of the people? Lord JOHN RUSSELL—•I received no representation of that kind. Sir ROBERT PEEL—Some days previous to what actually took place, did any accounts reach the Noble Lord that the individual was occupied in agitating the public mind ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I received no intimation of that sort. WEST INDIES. Mr. BIZOTHERTON seeing the Under Secretary for the Colonies in his place, wished to ask hint whether there was any foundation for the report that additional troops had been sent to the West Indies to pre serve the peace of the colonies ? Sir GEORGE GREY had stated on a former occasion that her Majesty's Government had not thought it necessary to increase the military force in the West Indies in consequence of the recent votes in that House. They had thought it right merely to send out correct in formation with respect to the proceedings of the House, trusting to the efficacy of the executive, and the state of the public mind to preserve peace. EDUCATION IN SCOTLAND. Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that, on Thursday next, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would move for a Select Committee on Education in Scotland. IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS. On the question being put that the House go into Committee upon the Irish Blunicipal Corporations' Bill, Mr. D'ISRAELI said he found that two powerful and rival parties had agreed to effect a compromise. In a country like Ireland, forming so important a part of the empire, he thought it was necessary that there should be a clear, intelligent, and precise idea of the principle in favour of which this compromise was to be effected. He supposed that such a com promise could only be founded on the principle upon which Ireland was hereafter to be carried on. If that were not the case, he regard it as a miserable expedient, having no other object than to effect a melancholy lull, instead of the calm, which men of both parties must be anxious to witness and enjoy. The Government must be carried on upon one principle or other--good or bad. Ireland had for centuries been governed upon the principle of conquest—that the minority should rule the majority. Amongst the artificial means made use of for this purpose, he looked upon the existing Corporations as the most im portant. He believed that the only mode in which Ireland could be governed was upon the principle of centralisation. He be lieved that was the only principle upon which that Ireland—he meant that island—(Great laughter) —could be governed, and for this reason, if for no other, that the delegated Government of England in Ireland at this moment was the wily authority which could be trusted with the exercise of power, because it was the only au thority that - could The looked to, to exercise power without passion. He apprehended that the policy of the last few years had been based on the principle of centralization. He might be asked, why with these sentiments he could reconcile himself to support the proposition of the Right lion. Baronet ? "He looked upon this as a necessary and inevitable compromise. He did not believe that any system of Government could answer for Ireland, which was not established on the principle of centralization. In supporting the proposition sketched out by the Right Hon. Baronet, modified as it was, he recognized it as the principle on which the Right Honourable Baronet would wish to govern Ireland; and unless he was informed: by the Noble Lord that this was the principle on which he intended to recommend the government of Ireland, he (Mr. D'lsraeli) should feel reluctance in assisting any compromises which could be productive of any ultimate utility. The Noble Lord had shown that he could carry on the Government with the aid of the principle of civilization, for lie had the advantages of a stipandary magistracy and a paid police ; and he thought there was a great deal of inconsistency in the Noble Lord announcing his intention of assimilating the insti tutions of the two countries in a country where ha could not trust the rural magistracy or constitutional authorities of the land with the preservation of order. He trusted the House would leans from the Noble Lord that lie had accepted the principle of centralization as the principle on which he would in future govern Ireland. The House then went into Committee, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. Upon clause 1 being put, Mr. SHAW moved as an a nendment that the schedules A and B should be joined into one, in order that the claven towns to which it was intended to grant Corporations sbould be included under the same provision, THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JUNE 2, 1838. Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would be then convenient to state his general view of the two principal points insisted upon by the Right Hon. Gentleman the other night.—(Hear, hear.) He would not then enter into the general question, or any particular clause, or any detail, but state his view of those two propositions. He conceived one of those propositions to be, to give corporate rights and privileges to eleven cities in the schedules A and B, giving those in schedule C, and other places, the power to apply for corporations, which now had none. The other proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet regarded the franchise, and in sisted on having it to the full value of 10/. The Right Hon. Gentleman proposed one franchise for all the different classes of towns, and after constituting such franchise provided that it should be founded on the qualification established by the poor-rate, which was to be the criterion. —(Hear, hear.) With regard to the first proposition to which the amend ment of the Right Hon. Member for the University of Dublin referred, although he (Lord J. Russell) would prefer the proposal then standing in the Bill, yet as it contained an enactment that a certain number of the principal cities of Ireland should have' corporations, and ad mitted that other towns might have them on sufficient grounds, he thought it a point of difference which he could waive. —(Hear, hear.) With regard to the other proposition, relating to the franchise, it seemed to him, after the best consideration the Government could give to the subject, that a 10/. franchise would be too high a qualification. —(Hcar, hear, from Mr. O'Connell and other Irish Members.) He was not then going to argue the question. In anything that had been stated the other night by the Right Hon. Baronot, in declaring the ne cessity of having a 101. franchise, he founded his reasons upon general grounds, without making :any distinction with those who were peen. liarly anxious to see this measure pass could at all esteem offensive.— (Hear, hear.) The grounds upon which he placed his conviction of such a rate of qualification would apply equally to Scotland as to Ireland.-- (Hear.) Therefore, with respect to the mode of reasoning pursued by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Lord John Russell) would only say that he was ready to follow the same mode of reasoning, although he should certainly come to a different conclusion. When they came to discuss the amount of the franchise he should be prepared to argue it. He would then only say he would not wish to propose any franchise that would be unreasonable—and he expected that, with regard to all the other points, there would be hardly any great difference. If the point of franchise could be satisfactorily arranged, he was not disposed to dis pute the amendment upon the present clause. Sir R. PEEL agreed with the Noble Lord that it was a matter of in. difference whether the present clause should stand as at present or as proposed to be amended. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Shaw) did riot propose to exclude schedule C. But it was necessary his proposition should have been made, for it should first be assumed that the principle was admitted. His proposition was that 11 towns should have corpora. tions, and he assumed that these should be based upon a 101. franchise, in which case it would be necessary to have two schedules, when the whole might be printed in one. The question of franchise would arise upon the 6th clause, which contained the amount of franchise. He had en tirely fulfilled his engagements—(Hear, hear)—and had prepared amend ments, which he should propose in the progress of the Bill; but these de. pended on the settlement of the question of what the franchise should be. Ile felt hound to state, although he wished to suggest his amendments in a conciliatory spirit, yet lie did not do so without the fullest considera tion—(Hear, hear)—and when that clause came to be discussed he in tended to stand steadfastly—to adhere to the principle.—(Cheers.) Sup. posing the House would determine upon a 51. qualification, it would place him in a difficult situation as regarded hi) subsequent amendments which were constructed on the idea of a 101. franchise. However, that qeestion would be decided upon the 6th clause. Mr. O'CONNELL would esteem it very convenient if the proposed amendments were'known to him more in detail. He did not understand the principle, and that was the diminishing of the franchise, by an in crease of the rate; making it as exclusive as at present, only in a differ ent way. The distinctness with which the Right Hon. Baronet an nounced Isis intention of adhering to this rating principle, showed what a thing the compromise which had been spoken of was. They might call it a compromise, but it was no more than a proposal made by one party to another, which that other had not assented to, and to which a third was lett out of the question altogether.—(Laughter.) It was time the people of Ireland should understand this boon. They would not accept it as a boon, for there was no people in the world less likely to be deluded by any such compromise. A Bill had passed that House, and was then in the House of Lords, purporting to relieve distress in Ire land. He would not then enter into the principle of the Bill, except to say that it was a bad way to provide for the destitution by making more of it by taxation. That Bill had not passed into a law, yet it was laid hold of for party purposes, and made the instrument for lessening the franchise. For, as lie understood the proposition of the Right Honourable Gentleman, the Poor-law was to be made the in. strument for diminishing the number of voters by raising the rate. He did not care for the conciliatory words, as they were called. They had the conciliatory words the other night, but they had the more stern determination of the Right Hon. Baronet that evening. A diminution of the franchise was not the scheme which a t, io s eti a r; it s iecs t a t f classes, el m sth a b n a udt w ould have recourse to for the tranquillization of he ti: i e n n b t i land, of persuading her into a belief that she possessed the same Go ,erlvpaietonpolet n T de h r e the dominion of party, but identified with the England. itot a some ccompanied ie saidnpta, as dfatt, by y t a l s i a e gßil Emancipationlntgaprivileges al away ys Bill oh l et h hr a ei d g hw done .f • a w n a si individual , o i ci a n u a t o l ftrhoemCtaht the oplri civg ff ile r e a ng n ter t yo il f l o g fa the privilege of entering that House, nerally. That Bill was framed for th l s r e e l l m t a :i of sitting upon the bench, ofholding commissions in the army and navy, in that ha b l: u tl I pi E r C ps e • o t .s o e the oTfh p ee x e f o ac j cl ) u l t e d: g z e i that the necessity for agitation had become an axiom in politics, as it was only by making Government s uncomfortable the people obtained their rights -,(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) What were they doing, now ? They had given England and Scotland Municipal Reform, and were now insulting Ireland by audaciously refusing her a similar boon.—(Hoar, hear.) What Ito wished to say was, that if Ireland was to hare Municipal Reform it should be the same as that enjoyed by England and Scotland—(Hear, hear)—a similar franchise to that of those two countries—he desired no more; but he did not wish to see the objects of the Bill defeated by any dexterity. If that, in de. stroying the present corporations, they only added to the power of a certain portion of the people of Ireland, then the measure would be considered by the remainder merely as a paltry instalment, to he used as a means of obtaining the rest. He was ready to go into the discussiOn of the question, if the object was to perfectly assimilate the municipal institutions of the two countries, and would be willing to use the Par liamentary franchise as the basis for establishing the burgess qualidea tion, but he would avow it openly that nothing but perfect assimilation to the institutions of England and Scotland would satisfy the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Sir R. PEEL said, the Hon. and Learned GenticmanThas given many reasons for disagreement on this question; but it is quite evident that the object and effect of his speech is to prejudice the future discussion on the measure.—(Hear.) Sir, I find that the. Honourable and Learned Gentleman has observed that I stated more sternly to night that which I stated more mildly on a former occasion. am not aware of having adopted any additional sternness of manner, but I trust that a settled determination may be evinced without any cope aismptoe in d e , r i e c e w• as n i o i t o h n i . n g an d i n L in e a y r n in ed a n n G e r e : t h e e ., a other h t e o r tnhiigntikt s ttti clear ency p lha to ve the lai fi d rst seven w t a o s ivn a s t t a h l e l p h re a h t aahled.epasrteuw7 Sir, froml find with course respect ect l qualification for the franch ise is thus construed that tle ve constituency i is to be composed of is s f t o t tenements 1 1 n 0 e 1 n . t , s , c of s the h .1 shall l full not require a yearly value of ten pounds. 'l'he Honourable and Learned Gentleman hopes that when we say the qualification also to the amount of 201. I quite agree ' with him in this —(Hear, bear) —but when y ou tell me that this franchise is to be limited to persons possesse d of a bona fidc.qualific a t ie n to that amount, I call on you to frame y our enactments to correspond with your doe. trine.—(Hear, hear.) F or this re ason I wish the Poor-rate to be made gainTh e some Honourable advantage t n y i s s t , I it that, that t i t , a i s s a a the standard for ascertainingit t t r h e e sh q a u l a i l b ifi e ea t t os io ai Learned Gentleman seems to think that I wish . to prejudicing the people against by adopting the l'oor-law as a standard; he ood test.—(hear, u,ilpa It hear, hear.) l t i e h a e r n . ), Pular law, and that by using imnguniacipaelernetfroorlmlie.g All el,e e l k s , ay i t t vit i h s r a espect asvuerdento(t3et'llitel Gentleman i te v s e t ry t n u v l O P lv ° : I think, also, that it would be v a ir :H o r tpo t: y - I . st I th h e different principles of rating in theery objectionable to have two for the sake of argument, that Poor.lawthperineiglsame borough. I assume, instead of adopting a different ciple from her Majesty's Government, andPluoriPiloyses Yearly shouldtlyvalue, whilea common mt the on Hon. Principle nd LfeoarrPia,pleeol of rating, all I urge is, that slightest hn l t eiborrowsntsii idea thh the oa,t, prin. imnyy value it as being clear object ; e l c s t a i t s is t f o ntory. or -rate will define the clear proposition could tend to that result. of the principal towns in Ireland a bona fide 3 it f cannot be that in eleven value of 101. would give a monopoly to theranchise of the annual perpetuatel Protestant inh b . a 'tants.-- (Cheers.) I believe it would be much more likel y fa ir to give a balance of public opinion than to establish mono p ol y. But it i view to t hi s part of the subject I propose it,s not with any although at the same time I must express my fixed determination to adhere to my pro posal, namely, that in eleven towns the fran chise shall be 101., instead of seven towns, as proposed by the Bill ; and with respect to th e ot h er t owns — no t excluding them from corporate franchise it, a question I leave to be decided b y those int e r ested where they desiree grant-1 must adhere to the c ourse I indicated on a former inth the tone of the Publi c occasion. Sir, it is impossible for me to avoid p erceiving, from organs out of doo rs, that there is a stron g claim todefeat our ex ertions for an amic able settlement of these great Irish questions.-- (He a r.) We are chat ged with not havin g obtai ned the abandonment of the appropriation clause, and because of making disgracef u l sions to our oppone nts. All these intimations will not in the eerie"- slightest de gree affect me in my support of the principle indicated on a former oc casion, and which appeared to me at the time to give unqualified satis faction to a very larg e p ro p ortion of the Members of this House. lam not in the slightest degree intimidated by these demonstrations; but shall per Severe in m y exertions to brin g these q uestions an amicable se ttl e ment.—(Hear, hea r .) A n d I very much doubt if I fail, whether I shall not stand ac q uitted in the e y es of thos e who wish the suspension of that agitation in Ireland which has prevented the settlement of this question, and caused such grievous inte • rruptions to her prosperous ad vancement.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. O'CONNELL must differ with the last the Right Honourable I3aronet. Ireland, (Mr. O'Connell's) opi n i on , had never gained anythi ng but by in his agitation, and there was no better witness of that than the Rig ht Hon. Baronet himself, who, in the case of Emancipation, had yielded not to his reason or his judgment, but to agitation. For the rest of the Right Honourable Baronet's observa tions he agreed with them in words--the question was, whether they agreed as to the amount of value required— the question was, how i t w Baronet would s ee t h at his a'to be ascertained P The Right Honourable test would not answer. In Belfast, where a police rate was settled b by sworn valuators, those valuators afterwards proved before the Fictitious for the rate at Si. Were , Votes Committee that many houses valued Right Hon. Baronet orth 10/. He was quite willing to meet the half way in concession ; but on the question of rating ho could not consent that any man should avoid the payment of taxes by forfeiting his franchise. Sir It. PEEL he should have the ver meant to say that a party who had the ri g ht option of declining to claim his franchise. He would have sworn valuators appointed to make the rate, a nd then if the p art y rated considered he had been rated too highly he would o pp ose the rate, and thu s the real value would be ascertained. But in all cases should he intended there be a third party to exercise their impartial judgment as to whether the premises had been fairly va lued or not. Mr. SHELL thought interest would be pit that by the Right Hon. Baron et ' s p lan the voter ' s against his desire to obtain his fr a nchise—a cir. cumstanee which did not not occur in England or Scotland. He had listened to the Right Honourable Baronet the other night with g reat attention, and could not gathe In his speech on that occa sion that his determi. nation as to th e test was from was unalterable& The Right Hon. Baronet, then said that, even su , nion had decided in the Peer-law did not pass, still that public opi favour of municipal institutions for Ireland. Sir R. PEEL said that as the Honourable and Learned Gentleman seemed to have misunderstood him he would re p eat what he (Sir R. Peel) said on the occasion alluded to. What he said was that he w o u ld aw - adopt the Poor l• as affording a safe test. He assumed, for the sake of argument, that the Poor-law would pass; but supposing it did not pass, then he would borrow this principle as affording Wit hin itself a controll ing check. Th us far Lord JOHN his intention wa s unalterable.—(Hear.) had taken it wouta RUSSELLbe e thought that from the turn the discussion better to postpone the early clauses, and come at once to the sixth. He would wi s h , Sir E. SUGDEN und ers t oo d t h at t h ere was no objection made to the amount of fran c hi se, but merely to the mode of ascerta ining the value. then, to as k th e H on. an d Learned Gentleman what he would propose as a test of value.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable and Learned G ent l eman was mistaken in saying that the mo de of rating differed in England and Scotland, as by a late Act all property was as. sessed at its true value. Mr. O'CONNELL would answer the question of the Right Hon. Gentleman at once. At present he would ascertain the value pre. cisely as it was ascertained for the Parliamentary Reform Act for towns and boroughs. He took it, that wherever 101. a-year rent was paid it afforded conclusive evidence of the value. So far it was a test perfect and entire. When a less rent than ten pounds was paid, then they would have power to ascertain, first, whether a fine had been paid, and if so allow the customary addition of ten per cent. to the rent; also whether there had been any improvements. These were the tests he would propose. They should also recollect that even suppose the Poor-law should pass the machinery for fixing the rate had not been as yet determined on. Sir E. SUGDEN thought there would not be much difficulty in the matter if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman meant what he said, as the rent paid should be the criterion for levying the Poor.rate as well as for ascertaining the franchise. Lord G. SOMERSET, having listened to a great many discussions on this part of the subject, could not now refrain from expressing an opinion very much at variance with that of the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman. He understood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to have stated that he wished the criterion of value to be the same as that for the elec tive franchise. Now, he could only say, that having attended the exa mination of a great many witnesses, his conclusion was, that nothing could be more unsatisfactory than the present mode of determining the value by the Revising Barristers, as there was always a strong bias amongst those persons with regard to election matters. Before the Fictitious Vote Committee the Treasurer for the City of Cork stated that many houses in that city were rated much under the real value, some so much so as from five pounds to seven pounds. He mentioned the evidence of this Gentleman as one whose prejudices, if he had any, leant towards the other side of the House, and as proving how uncertain was the present criterion of value. Mr. O'CONNELL said that the evidence quoted went against the argument of the Noble Lord, as proving that the houses were rated be. low, and not above, the value. After a short conversation between Lord J. RUSSELL and Mr. Stun*, Clauses 1 to 5 were postponed. Clause 6, giving to the occupiers of houses in boroughs, of the yearly value of 101. the municipal franchise, Mr. SHAW, thought that there was no use in proceeding with this clause until the Poor-law was passed. Mr. O'CONNELL asked if the Right Honourable Gentleman pro posed to defer Municipal Reform until then ? Mr. SHA W—Certainly. Lord MORPETH understood quite the contrary from what fell from the Right Honourable Baronet. He understood the Right Honourable Baronet to say that Municipal Cm porations for Ireland were demanded by public opinion, and should be conceded. Sir R. PEEL said he should be satisfied with any other mode of rating equally satisfactory. Of course his amendment was framed in the supposition that the Puor-law would pass, as he did not attempt to legislate for a hypothetical case. Mr. O'CONNELL suggested that the Parliamentary mode of rating should be adopted until the Poor-law Bill should have passed. Mr. SHAW thought that until some satisfactory criterion of value was obtained there was no use proceeding with this Bill. Mr. O'CONNELL said it was easy to see through all the delusion. It was a mere struggle to increase the franchise. The mode of rating for the poor relief had not as yet been ascertained, and was not of course available. He asked of the Right Hoe. Baronet opposite whether it, was his intention to r a t e th e f ranc hi se f or the burgess roll higher tha t the Parliamentary franchise? Sir R. PEEL said, I shall read the amendment which it is my intend tion to propose, and then the Hon. and Learned Gentleman will bed better able to understand what arc my intentions with respect to the j.franchise. If I had postponed the cons id erat i on o f th i s measure until the Poor-law should have passed, it would be alleged that I waited until ,the Coronation, and the approaching termination of the Session, rem; ; tiered the passing of the measure no w b e f ore us i mposs ibl e. I was aware . of the difficulty arising from the fact of the Poor.law not having yet passed, and was prepared to look out for some test equally satisfactory. The amendment I intend to propose would come in in lieu of clause 6, and is as follows :—The clause runs, " Shall be truly and really of the value of 101. and upwards." My words are, " Separately and jointly with any land occupied by the tenant under the same landlord, and shall in respect of the said premises be assessed under any Act passed ins this present Session for the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland, at the yearly rate of 10/., in the manner to be directed by said Act." Mr. O'CONNELL asked, would the Right Hon. Baronet do him the faveur to say whether he intended the franchise to be higher or lower than the Parliamentary franchise? Sir R. PEEL—If any one enjoys his franchise on a nominal value it is my intention that it should be higher. I intend that there shall be no necessity for Committees to decide on fictitious votes.---(Hear, hoar.) My intention is to have a satisfactory mode 'of ascertaining the franchise, to give to the ratepayers a mode of redress if over-charged, and to the mass of the constituency a power of prevention, should there be an attempt to obtain the franchise without a legitimate title. Mr. O'CONNELL said that the Right Hon. Baronet would have answered his question directly if it had answered his purpose. He (Mr. O'Connell) had the testimony of the Right Hon. Member for Ripon that the payment of rent was a fair test. He could show to the House that the mode proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet was not, as it would afford every facility to the guardians Magistrates to accommo date the rate to their own purposes. Sir W. FOLLETT said that all were agreed as to the necessity of some test for the value, and he was not aware of any test so good as that proposed by his Right Hon- Friend. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had accused them of wishing to introduce a franchise diffe rent to the Parliamentary franchise. Now, although the Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated in his place in that House that the payment of rent was the criterion for the franchise he must have very well known that that was not the criterion in Ireland. He (Sir W. Follett) had himself had some personal experience in these matters, and he knew that what was contended for in -Ireland was not renepaid. but what time tenant could swear the premises were worth to him.—(Hear, hear.) He could tell the Hon. and Learned Gentleman of a case which had oc curred within his own experience. An instance in point occurred in Clonmel, as he would show by an extract from what was givens in evi. deuce before a Committee of the House. It appeared that in the borough of Clonmel about eighty persons claimed to be put upon the registry on the ground of occupying houses worth 10/. a year. Now what were the tenements from which these persons claimed I Not houses, but underground cellars, being only parts of houses ; yet out of these claims their names were registered. Same time after a rate was to be levied for the purpose of some borciugh improvement, and the valuers appointed to make the rate went round for the purpose. He took the improved rent as the test of value, and they levied upon no house, which, according to that test, was under 5/. Of the houses to which these cellars belonged, and of which they formed a part, all but one was under the value of 5/., and that one was only rated at 6/.—(Hear, hear.) Those occupiers of cellars, when asked if they were houses of 101. value, invariably answered " They are so to me.'' They included in the estimate their own and their wives' earnings from the sale of eggs and other articles which they disposed of in those eel_ lars.—(Hear, hear.) Yet the Barristers took these names. He allowed no question to be put as to the amount of rent paid, alleging that no person could be so good a judge of the value as the person who occu pied. Now- what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman contended for would have just the same effect. The result would be to encourage perjury. He asked the House to consent to some test that would prevent perjury. The franchise was different in England and Scotland, and it was proposed to. introduce the amount of Sc o t c h f ranc hi se in Ireland. He only asked that what was proposed should be carried fairly into effect. The mode of estimating the value had been declared by the Judges in Ireland not to be the proper mode. It is quite essential that there should be a bona fide test of property; and if that were not done; his Right Honourable Friend was perfectly right to oppose the passing of this Bill. It was not saying that the proper mode was the rent value which a solvent tenant would give for the premises. He asked could they consent to pass a Bill of this nature, giving a mere fictitious value? The clauses of the Bill went expressly to disfranchise the freemen of Ireland. Was this done with the consent of the Government ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that the object of this clause was to raise the franchise, but he denied that this was the case. The object which he had in view was to ascertain the real value. What was the usual mode of ascertaining the value of a house ? Why by ascertaining first the rent it would let for, and then valuing the amount for a certain number of years. That was the mode in this country. The test of the poor-rate was the surest and the safest test of value, and this very test was the test used on a former occasion by her Majesty's Government in ascertaining the qualification of a mayor and alderman. The question then was were they to legislate on this measure, and grant a ten pound franchise without ascertaining that that amount was real and not ficti tious. He did not think that it would benefit Ireland to extend the franchise, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said; and for this reasons and the other reasons he had stated he should oppose this Bill, unless the test of the ten pound franchise were such as to establish a real property qualification.—(Cheers.) Mr. O'CONNELL said that the opinion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would be thought little of in Ireland, except inasmuch as it showed his hostility to the extension of the franchise in that country, / and his declaration that the people of Ireland were unfit for self-govern ment. He contended that the object of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite was to raise the qualification in Ireland, for their proposition could have no other effect. The Hon. Gentleman said there were no Parlia mentary taxes in Ireland ; but what did he call the Grand Jury Ccss ? As to the quotations which the non. and Learned Gentleman had given from his (Mr, O'Connell's) evidence, it was not fairly given. His first answer seas, that the 40s. franchise in fee ought to be preserved, but not the nominal freeholds of that amount. The solvent tenant's test was only applicable to counties, and not at all to towns, so that the ar. guments on that subject totally failed. As to the freemen of the Corpo ration of Dublin, was there any test of property qualification with them —were they not purchaseable at every election ? The honest consti_ tuency of Dublin were defrauded of their rights by the wholesale ad mission of freemen by birth, servitude, and marriage. The only way of producing tranquillity in Ireland was to give equal rights to Ireland, and England ; and while he lived not a year should pass without agita tion unless the equality were established. The Hon. and Learned Gen tier-inn should not apply his talents to oppose the rights of the people of Ireland. Lord J. RUSSELL could see no reason why they should not discuss now what ought to be the proper qualification for corporations in Ire land. In Scotland the House had made a 101. value as the franchise. With regard to England, a certain period of residence was necessary, and to be rated to the poor. The proposal to unite the Scottish and English tests, would have the effect of placing a higher qualification upon the occupants of towns in Ireland, who were not so wealthy as a similar class in England. It would be injurious to adopt any measure which would tend to deprive of a vote for corporate purposes the body of a re. spectable class, who had quite as great an interest in the welfare of the towns they inhabited as those who stood higher or more wealthy. The great objection, however, to the speech of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman was, that it imperatively demanded a test of qualification, and this test was to be obtained under an Act Which was not yet in ope ration. This would postpone the Municipal Corporation Bill and all its benefits until the passing of the Poor-law Bill, or, in fact, until a later period—namely, until the establishment of Poor-law Unions. Surely this would be an unnecessary delay it would have the effect — of d • epriv ing for a time the Irish people of the advantages that arise from munici. pal corporations, without sufficient cause. He did not wish, at that period, to enter largely into the question, but his opinion was that the franchise, as it at present stood in the Bill, was quite sufficiently secured. At all events, it would be only fair towards the people of Ireland to grant the 101. franchise as it at present stood in the Bill, and not to postpone it indefinitely. If the Committee adopted the 5/. franchise, it would be even better than the mode which was proposed, and which would have the effect of actually raising the qualification in Ireland. The test was not necessary, and would be found to press so heavily upon the occupiers of 10/. houses in Ireland, that it would be preferable to.have a 5/. franchise. Mr. SHAW considered the object of the Noble Lord to be a lowering of the qualification. The criterion proposed was one to which he scarcely could anticipate an objection, for it was an unfailing mode of ascertaining the real value of the interest from which a person sought the franchise.— (Hear.) The Noble Lord, in his objections to the cri. terion of poor-rates, did not suggest any mode of ascertaining the qua lification. His (the Noble Lord's) view was, that the system of dis pensing with the test should go on until the passing of a Poor law, and then it might be remedied. He did not deny the evil, but he offered no means of prevention in lieu of that proposed. The reason for adopt ing the poor rate as a test was because it was the most simple, and that which could be obtained with the least trouble on the part of those in terested, besides its having the advantage of saving them from mistake or misrepresentation. But the Noble Lord's objection to the poor rate was brought forward as the proposition depended upon the Poor Law Bill, and that alone. He objected to the test, and yet he did not offer any test in lieu of it. They merely said give them the poor rate test, or something else. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had said that the qtialification was different in counties from that which was in operation in towns. There was some error in that, for the only diffe rence was, that in counties the qualification should be over and above the rent, and in towns the real value was the standard. The Noble Lord did not deny that some test was requisite ; he omitted, however to say what criterion of value they, should adopt if they re linquished this most reasonable, just, and impartial mode of ascertain ing the value. The Noble Lord suggested that this Bill might be allowed to progress as it was, and if the test he applied after was foutleci upon a bad p4rieiple, were they to permit all the evil* result. ing from it to continue? Were they to allow inadequate qualifica tions and every other contingent disadvantage to go on uninterrupted until some indefinite period, and only then to hope for a test by which to qudge of qualification —a test which ought to be secured in the first instance, or it would be too late ? It was evident that the intention of the Noble Lord was to lower the franchise qualification as much as possible; and, indeed, so confident did he feel upon thAs subject, that he (Mr. Shaw) inclined to think the real question was, whether they, were to have a 51. or a 101. franchise.—(Hear, hear.) If they wished for a real and genuine 10/. qualification, why did they object to the test, or, having objected to it, why did they not suggest some other, capable of accomplishing the purpose that they should all be inclined to advance the satisfactory adjustment of the qualification ? Their object was to secure a bona f ide qualification, not a fictitious one, and the Poor-law rate was decidedly the best, the surest, and least erring criterion, Mr. SHELL said that in the case of Poor-rates the credits were al lowed against the party, and in the case of franchise they were allowed in favour of the party. This was the distinction. He would cite an instance corroborative of this distinction, and would put it hypothet.;- cally. He owned a House for which he paid 101. a year rent, and 2f. taxes.—(Here the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was interrupted by Mr. O'Connell and other Irish Members, as if correcting his calcula. tion, upon which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman stopped, amidst cries of "Go on," from the Conservative benches.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said he had made a miscalculation, but the principle was not at all affected by that, it was exactly as he had stated. What was tEse test they proposed ? Was it similar to that which was in operation irr Scotland ? No. In that country the Poor-rate was not employed as the criterion of value. It might be said this test was introduced for the purpose of preventing abuses of the elective franchise. Very good. Were there no abuses of the elective franchise in Scotland ? Were there no fictitious votes there ?—(Hear.) Why, then, did they not apply a test similar to that proposition for Ireland ? If they did not propose the same test, why did they adduce Scotland as au example in corporate franchise, or in any other alterations ? There could be no doubt in the mind of any person as to the motive which induced them to propose this test. It was to raise the franchise; they would apply it now to the borough franchise, but hereafter it would be applied to the Parliamentary franchise, and this was the secret of its adoption. -7 (Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) They would extend the crite rion beyond its present sphere. It would be found,that they only offered a resistance to that test which was perfectly justified. The Hon.. Gen tlem.n at the other side had opposed the Corporation Bill for four years, and now they wanted to make it subservient to their political views. Dur ing all the period of their opposition they were creating hundreds of free. men. Did they intend to disfranchise them when the Bill passed, or did they intend to continue them as a means of opposing the principle of the Tit? When the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth introduced the !Emancipation Bill he retained the forty-shil ing freeholders in some towns, as a countervailing power against the freemen. Drogheda was one of these towns. Would they act in a si milar manner now? They would have the mass untouched, and would throw as many obstacles as possible in the way of those who would counteract their influencee. The object of the test was obvious, it was to affect the franchise, and was intended, however ineffectual, to act against the Catholic population of Ireland, by keeping the power as much as possible out of their hands ; this had been their policy since the passing of the Emancipation Act; and they still kept up those odious distinctions. If Ireland possessed seven millions of Protestants they would not be anxious to increase the franchise; but when it served a purpose it was different. They would preserve the former, and increase the 101. qualification when they thought it would confer power uron the Catholics. If they continued this system in the present Bill—if they set Protestant and Catholic in opposition, they would defeat thew own work. Sir 11. PEEL--Sir, I was anxious to discuss this question in a manner calculated as little as possible to afford any cause for division ; but the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin says that I brought forward my proposition not with a view to the carrying out of the Bill, but with a view to' deteriorate the interests•of the Roman Catholics. The proposal of the Bill is that there should be a 101. franchise; that is, that the fran chise in the towns which it is intended shall have corporations shall be given to those in possession of a house of the annual value of 10/., and my proposition is that there should be some test by which to ascertain that qualification for that franchise. This it is that the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin designates a proposal degrading to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. How can it be said that this argues an insult to the Catholics of Ireland ? How can it be construed into a proposition degrading to them ? This charge is indeed a pretty return for what has been designated by the Honourable and Learned Member himself my fair and conciliatory conduct in giving my assent to the Bill a few evenings ago. The Honourable and Learned Member should recollect that Corporations were not instituted in Ireland for the purposes of local government alone. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, when he spoke of our wishing to apply the power of the Corporation to a purpose which he assumes, should remember that they were instituted for the purposes of protecting and strengthening the Protestant interest in that country. Mr. O'CONNELL—They were not specially for that purpose. Sir R. PEEL—They were practically for that purpose from the reign of James the Second until 1830. Upon a former occasion when the ob jections which had been found to exist against the Irish sorporations were brought forward, and when it was proposed to pass a 1. lilt for the purpose of improving them, I thought it would be better Lc) abolish them altogether, and thus, even at the expense of forfeithig any advantages from them, secure the removal of the objections. At that period I could not anticipate that the Roman Catholics of Iref.uid would offer any opposition to such a proposal. I did not imagine they would object to the abolition of the Protestant Corporations altogether. That proposition was, it appears, in opposition to their wishes; it appeared to wound their feelings, an effect which I could not have ex pected. So soon, therefore, as I became satisfied that the appropria tion clause was not to be brought forward, I was anNious to come to an adjustment upon this subject. It should be recollect,f'd that deference is due to the opinions and feelings of both sides, for it is admitted there are two sides upon this subject, and it is only by adopting this course we can hope to make the Bill effectual for its purposes. Ido no' see how my proposal can merit any opposition from the Noble Lord opposite. Ho proposes to grant a certain qualification for the franchise, and I p." o Pose to establish a test by which we can ascertain the possession of this qOall fication. He proposes that in towns possessing 15,000 inhabitants a,7kd upwards the qualification should be 10/. ; those towns amounting to' eleven. I assent to this. He goes on to assume that corporate govern. ment will produce all the good effects that have been described, and, acting upon this assumption, he leaves no option to the inhabitants of those townsto accept or reject the corporations. I accede tO this. I agree to the assumption that local government will produce all the good effects that are anticipated from its introduction. I only ast that with respect to those towns in which the 10/. franchise will certainly to established there should be a bone f ide qualification, tested by the Poor.rate, the best criterion, and thai which is adopted in England.' If the mode proposed in the Bill was made :the test of qualification for Burgesses, for instance, it would have the Offect of substituting the oath or opinion of an , individual for the superior criterion of rates. A borough rate 'is surely a better and more effectual mode of judging a qualification.—(llear, hear.) The Hon, and L earne d Member for Dub lin said that Ireland should be placed in a similar positimr. to Scotland. I must say that we treat Ireland in this measure with as in.'ith indul- gence as Scotland, and that nothing can be further from our' minds than an undue preference. Mr. O'CONNELL—Give us the Scotch Bill. Sir ROBERT PEEL—You will take the Scotch Bill, but you not consent to the Scotch assessment.—(Hear, hear.) But is there a fair parity between the countries ? Are the circumstances connected with their corporate towns the came ? rison between the countries is without value. And unless they are the compa. Is there a Clonmel in Scotland ?—(Cheers.) I do not mention this in any invidious light. Ido not bring the case of Clonniel or any similar case forward as any reflection upon Ireland. The- faults were the faults of legiolation. Those evils were the evils of the law, which left open oppor. tunities and incentives to abuse; and if the people availed themselves of those opportunities, if they committed those abuses to which the law tempted them, it is the law that should ho blamed. It is because i ant aware of the existence of those abases—it is because they have been proved by indisputable evidence--,that we are determined for the secu- rity of good government, and not for that alone, but for the interests of morality and the effectual security of the hanchise, that I propose this mode of testing the qualification. The Noble Lord opposite has quoted Scotland in reference to this Bill. What, I will ask, is the case of Scotland under the present law ? Has the Noble Lord shown that great anxiety to diffuse among the population of towns in Scotland-that gentral possession of franchise which would induce every of them to say to themselves they all enjoyed a share in the local government Has he given so extensive a franchise as that ? By no means. In a population of 3,300, how many are there entitled to vote in corporate affairs ? 169.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He has given merely 169 elec.. tors to 3,300 persons! This does not look very like a great extension of the franchise. In another town—Jedburgh—where there is a population of 4,350, how many electors arc there to be found ? No more than 15G. In Peterhead, with a population of 5,112 inhabitants, there is a similar paucity of electors as compared with the population; the number of electors in the town of Peterhead, with a population of 5,112, is no more than 173. Here is no very striking instance of an inclination to enlarge and widely diffuse the franchise.—(llear, hear.) If in the case of Scotland I were inclined to influence the national feelings of that country—lf I wished to rouse " • - and excite the Scottish people—l could instance those towns and say, " This is an insult to Scotland."—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) But I would not do so. I would not, for it would not be just so to do, ad - . duce every distinction which may be noticed in legislating for two countries ai - ,a proof that there was not a feeling of impartial justice tow wards each.—(Hear.) Those distinctions are often necessary from the separate and distinct circumstances connected,with those countries, and are no proof that insult or degradation is meant to either.—(Hear, hear. ) It has been objected to my proposition that it will have the effect, if carried, of postponing the progress of the Bill until the Poor Law Bill shall have passed. This objection could have been very easily obviated. If the Noble Lord had said that it was necessary to have some mode of obtaining a test with reference to the poor ratOt.and that ' he had requested the postponement of the Bill, I should not ,have any objection that this Bill should be postponed until after the pasng of the Poor Law Bill. However, I think this a favourable and a •pro: , er time to introduce this test. I take it for granted that the Poor-law wil ]be: passed in sufficient time not to delay it. It is necessary to remember that the rates will be assessed before the workhouses are built, and previously to its general operation. I should not be inclined to press forward this matter too hastily if it were deemed as inconvenient. lam of opinion that the feelings of the people should be looked at with respect. When great and important interests are not to be protected, I . should have the greatest satisfaction in deferring to the popular feeling in Ireland as well as in England.—(" Hear hear," and cheers.) However, I think it calculated to benefit all that are concerned in the Bill to have a proper test—such as I propose • v it is impe rative upon the Government to secure the qualification by a test, and I can see none so effective as the poor rate.—(Hear, hear.) It is im portant to the interests of good local government and to the principle of the Bill that some such test should be in existence ; but it is, if pos sible, of greater importance that this test should be in force from the beginning. Commence badly, and it will be impossible to reform after wards.—(Hear, hear.) Open the door to fraud, and it is folly not to imagine that the temptation will not be too strong for the people to re sist. They will say, we will secure our corporation rights now, whilst we have the power in our own hands. Let us establish the franchise upon a sound basis at first, if we wish to secure it. It is in the first in: stance that the evils attending the admission of improperly qualified per sons can be avoided. My object in proposing this criterion, Is not for the purpose of postponing the Bill : it is solely with a view . to attain a satis factory mode of ascertaining the qualification, and thus protecting the franchise. So far from having a view towards postponement in naming the Poor.rate as a criterion, if the Noble Lord says that the Poor.law Bill will not pass, I shall consider upon the propriety of ascertaining and proposing another test of qualification, which will ensure security.— (Loud cheers.) In proposing this test I was obliged to proceed upon the assumption that the Poor Law Bill would pass. But I shall adhere to this proposition, and although I have been charged with a wish to post. pone the Bill until the Poor Law Bill shall have passed, I shall not be prevented from taking the sense of the House upon it. There are other considerations connected with t hi s subject which I do not w i s h t o bring forward at present, and which, if they were brought forward, would not have a tendency to increase those feelings which will be best calculated to aid the operation and support the principle of the Bill. I shall only • say that my sole object is to secure not a nominal but a real bona fide 101. franchise, which would be supported by a satisfactory test, and . I look upon this not as an o b stac l e to the Bill, but a means of rendering pram tically beneficial, and a concession upon my part.--(Cheers.) A charge has been made against us that we wish to render the corporations a monopoly, to the exclusion, as far as possible, of Roman Catho lics. Now with the fact before us that there are 16,000 101. houses in the city of Dublin, and when w e are told o f the vast increase of wealth amongst the Roman Catholics, I cannot anticipate any great • danger to their interests or any overwhelming preponderance to the Pro. testant interests from the 101. franchise. In Cork, in Limerick, in Waterford, and the other large towns, the case is precisely similar to that of Dublin, and the danger to the Roman Catholics just as great. ,