The Sun. — London, England, 1818-04-22 00:00:00

PARLIA MENT. HOUSE L 011.1) " ,. 1 LIESDAY, APRIL 21. The C‘tnirnittee of Privileges sat for the re sumed Con , ideration of the claim of 1... , .5vis Dynioke, Esq. to the i 3 rooy of Alarmion. After hearing dOennlentaty uvidenCe. reAd at sum: , length, the further consideration was postponed till Toes,lav next. Some 1.;)cal and Private 131114 were brought up by Sir James Graham and other Niemhers, and read a first time. The Leeds Gas Light Bill was also returned, with the amendments agreed to. The Clerk of the Patents to the Attorney and Solicitor-General, presented an Account of Fees received 0 0 pardons sued out tinder the Great moral ;. and Alt. Bulky, frost► the Excherprer, ac counts relative to the Consolidated Fund.—Or dered to lie upon the Table. The latter were • ordered to he-printed The Earl of LivEßP , ,ot. I:dd upon theTable' - an Account of the Pensions, Allowances, &c. of their. Royal HiglinesseS the Dukes of Clarence, Kent, Sussex, and Cambridge. After going thrmwh.some private business, The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE moved, that this Account respecting the Royal Dukes be, printed. The Earl of SHAFTEsBUEY wished the motion to be converted into a notice for another day, his N ob!e Friend (Lord Liverpool) not being then in the House. The Marquis of Dowivsnia2 thought the Ac, count ought to he printed fur the information o the House and the public ; he had no objection liowever, to give notice, instead of making a too. tion now. Ttie LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the House were already in possession of the Accoupt Witl►out the necessity of printing. The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE then gave notice of his motion for to-morrow..--Adjourned tilt to morrow (this day.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Person from the Bank presented Accounts of the narm ber of persons prosecuted for passing forged Tokens and Dol lars.—Ordered to be printed. Th,. Report of the CoMmittee on the Hallamshire Cutters' Petition was taken into cooSideration and agreed to, and a Bill for regulating the tt-ade ordered to be brought in. Lord BINNING presented a Petition from the Proprietors of certain Salt Works in Scotland, praying that no alteration may be made in the Salt Duties.—Ordered to be printed. Sir J. GRAHAM brought in a Bill to auginent the Salaries of the Chancery Cleik,s in the Report 'Ottice.-- r -Read a first, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. On the ;notion of Mr, C. CALVERT, an Account, chewing the amount of the duties paid on calico prints in the yearS 1816 and 1817, distinguishing the amount in each year, and the produce of the old and new duties, was ordered to be laid before the House. On the motion of Gen. GASCOIGNE, the Costs of Suit Bill went through a'Cummittee; the Report of which was or dered to he received to-morrow. A Petition was presented from the Parish of St. Mary, Woolnot h. against the Parish Vestries' Bill.—Ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. HART DAVIS presented a Petition froth Bristol against the Bill for altering the Poor Laws. My. pRoTHERO stated the Petition to hare been signed by very few of the inhabitants. Mr. II DAVIS offered a few words in reply, and the Peti tion was read and ut &red to lie on the Table. USURY LAWS. Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW rose. pursuant to notice, to submit to the House a motion on'the subject of the lasts against Usury. He briefly described the COurse which the mistaken policy of our ancestors bodied them to take, and asserted that the measures which they had thought it necessary to adopt laid by no meaes accomplished the purpose they had in view when r:aming them. He, had convinced the Chancellor of the: Exchequer of the I t o - opriety of taking this subject into Consi. der,tion, and had brought in a Bill in the last. Session, which passed unopposed to the report, when on the recommendation of the Secretary of State fur Foreign Affairs he (Mr. Otislow) had consented to let it stand over for further investigation.- - He was glad that he had done so, for the consequence had been the attention of the world had been drawn to it by va rious writers, and the subjett had been treated With great ability, especially in-one pamphlet (by Mr. Cooke) which he had read, and found to contain the soundest ()pi/. pions and most forcible arguments. The only groin autho rity that he cited in favour of the Usury Laws, was that of Dr. Adam Smith ; and the opinion he had given on this sub ject in his celebrated work, he had, after publication, with the magnanimity which belonged to a great mind, thought it dotv to withdraw. The evil consequence which it had been supposed would follow an alteration of the existing law, growing out of the right of foreclosure in cases of distress, he • showed were not likely to arise ; whilst on the contrary he could riot out many injuries that were now sustained, which were the effects of the present laws, that 'night he prevented if a measure like that which he would recommend to the House were adopted. The Chambers of Commerce of Bir mingham and Glasgow hail declared in favour of ah alteration of the Usury Laws, and he trusted the propriety of complying with their wishes in this instance would at no distant day be admitted. Thinking it right to bow to the opinions of others, be would not noiv move for leave to bring in a Bill, but be would content himself with moving for a Committee to take into considei ation the effect of the existing laws against Usury. He concluded by moving for the appointment of a Select Committee to consider of the effect of the Laws now in force to regulate or restrain the rate of interest of money. General MITCHELL thought the measure in contempla tion would he much objected to in Ireland, and expected many counter petitions would be presented on the subject. He proceeded to point out the inconveniences which he ap prehended would result from altering the laws against Usury, and appealed to the House if such a measure could be neces sary at a time like the present, when (as had been stated ih the debate of yesterday) every body could borrow at 41. per cent. interest. He had never known the time when. mo ney could not he raised on lauded property at an interest of 51. per cent. He thought they ought to pass to-the Order of the Day, Mr. J. P. GRANT spoke in favour of the motion. On this subject nearly all parties were agreed ; and few, if any, de ruled that the existing. laws ("some of them at least) ought to be repealed. H• retofore, when this subject was brought for ward, those-who objected to an alteration of !the Usury Laws had said, the question ought not to be raised at a time when the interest of money was so high. Now, the House had been told a change was unnecessary, because the rate' of interest was low, though till now he had always understood the pro per time fur taidng into eonsidetation the proposed change was when the rate of interest was reduced, as it was at pre sent. He should most cordiallrvute for the proposition of his Hon. and Learned Friend. Mr. CA LCRAET retained on this subject the opinions which he had expressed last yeat. He Should vote for the Committee, but doing this, he wished it to be understood that he gave no pledge that he would support,the Bill which / tin/Honourable and Learned Gentleman wished to bring in, unless his opinion - should be altered by the Report of the Committee. . General TI-lORNTON thottght the extension of the rum. gore proposed to be introduced to Ireland would be highly beneficial. A law of ma ;rim am was as injurious applied to looney, as it wag confessed to be applied to any thing else. Geoeril NIITCHELL did not wish to oppose the appoint went of the C.:ommittce, as the sen3e of the House seemed to be in its favour. He therefore, for the present,,withdrew his .opposition. Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW replied. He wished the measure to extend to Ireland. He knew of no part of the United Kingdom that was inure likely to henefit by it. Ireland wanted capaal, which was kept out of it by the existing laws. The motion was agreed to, and a Committee fo:thw•ith ap . pointed. ' WINDOW TAX IN IRELAND. Mr. R. SnA‘v ruse, pursuant .to the notice iFe 11,1;! given, to move that the petition presented by ' him from Dublin, and all the other petitions re ceived front Ireland on the subject of the Window Tax, should be referred to a Committee. Ireland, for the last twenty-five years, had most cheerfully contributed her share to carry on the contest in which this country bad, been engaged. When peace - returnee, a general expectation was enter rained that they would be reli6'ed from the Taxes that pressedanost heavily upon them. In parti cular they were led to hope that the . Window Tax woul4 be repealed. He thought they had pecu liar and strong grounds for entertaining such a hope. The Tax, when first imposed, was to last during the war, and no longer. To prove thiS he referred to what had passed in the Irish Parlia ment, when the Window Tax was first brought forward in that country ; from which it appeared that Mr. Corry, then Chancellor or the Exche quer for Ireland, had stated it to be merely a %Vat. Tax, and its continuance was liMited to three years and no longer, it the war should continue so long. Ireland had borne it to the end of the war, and conceived herself now to be entitled to relief. The hardships to which the people of Ireland were exposed while this duty was continued be shelved to be very great, and though all the provi sions of the law might hot be acted upon, that they existed and could be acted upon Was an evil which ought to be done away. The effects of this Tax causing windoWs 'to be stopped up which • were necessary for ventilation, had made that part or Dublin which was chiefly inhabited by the lower orders miserably unwholesome. The alarm svhich this occasioned had reached the Govern ment, and the Right Honourable Gentleman op posite, who had so long . governed Ireland in a manner satisfactory to every body, had, on this Occasion, acted a part worthy of hintself. Supe rior to considerations of finance, he had directed all the windows necessary for ventilation to be opened, and provided that the inhabitants of houses where this had become necessary should not be liable to any additional charge for such windows. This measure had been found .neces sary to preserve Dublin from art impet,ding plague. He proceeded to compare the financial exertions made by Ireland with those of England, and con tended, that in proportion to her means, she had done even more than this country. He shoved •he pressure upon her to have been greater-Allan she could bear, by comparing the produce .6f the Window and Hearth Taxes, on which he shoved, from the year eliding 6th February, 1816, to that ending 14'eliruary 6, 1818, there had been a fall, ink; off of 112,0001. ; 80,000 and upwards on the Windows, and thirty-two thousand pounds on the Hearth Dirties. Within the same period, the insolvenries'for Window Taxes had increased in a proportionate degree. Under all the.circumstances of the case, he appealed to the Right Hon. Gentleman, if it could be policy to persevere in duties which were tints rapidly falling off, and if, while the sum of 14,000,0001. was to be - raied.to spare the peop l e of this country burdens which might he avoided, the paltry:sum Of 300,0001. (the amount of the Window, ,Tax) ought not to be raised for the relief of the people of Ireland. He concluded by moving for the appointment-of a Select Committee, to consider of the expediency of repealing an Act Of the 56th of. the King, re specting Duties on Hearths and ‘VintloWs in Ire land. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the Hon. Gentleman had rested his case on two grounds ; first, on a supposed pledge given that the Window Tax should not be continued in a time of Peace ; and secondly, on the hardships to which it subjected the people, and on the imprac ticability of collecting it. He could never admit that the Government were bound in good faith to repeal the Tax when the war was at an end. In tact, to have done this, seeing it had been pledg ed for certain loans which had been raised for the service of the country, would have been an act of injustice to the public creditor. No pledge to repeal it bad been given that he was aware of, and a proof would be found in the circtunstance of its not having been repealed during the Peace of Amiens. Ireland, he contended, had been treated with, great liberality in her financial con nexions with England. He sheaved that she had not in every instance borne her full share of the burdens which had fallen on . the nation ; and though more than 200,006,0001. had been raised in England, which formed no part of the sums pledged to the public creditor, yet even this itn mense sum was not sufficient, and the people of this country had still to bear three or four mil lions of continued war taxes, under the head of Excise. Ile was as anxious to relieve Ireland from taxation as he could be to relieve this coun try; but he could not admit her claim was so strong as the, Hon. Gentleman conceived it to be. He admitted the assessed taxes of Ireland (and especially the Window Tax), bad been increased with a rapidity but ill calculated to produce a permanent revenue. He was, however, far from considering this a matter of reproach to his pre decessor. The duty he had to perform was one of extreme difficulty. He bad to provide for the letans of the year ; and to raise the sums neces sarily called for, he found himself obliged to im pose the English taxes in all the articles of taxa tion. That the continuance of these duties caus ed much distress, which had been aggravated by a scarcity of provisions, could not he denied, and he was of opinion it might not be _impro per to afford a degree of relief from that parti cular Tax to the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—This might be practicable, and he certainly had it in contemplation. A schedule was preparing which, when furnished, . . would spew the [-louse what were the modifica- tions intenderL: The general principle of his plan .. . . went to relieve the people of Irerand flom . the additional 25 per cent. laid on some years ago, where, from the pressure of distress, this shmild be found necessary. In other places where the pressure was not so great, a smaller scale of re- ief might be adopted. Other eirctinistances cop- nected with this subject woul►l uecebsarily be brought under the coU'sideration of the House, but on these he di•! not wish to enter till the schedule could be produced. From the Returns on the table of the House, he was. led to hope that the situation of Ireland had of late improved, and that the clouds which had hung ove; her Would soon be dispersed. He could 'not 'aliPrOve of the resent motion. The relief .which he' bad " announced would, be thought, be better than going into a Committee for the chance of still greater 'relief. He was willing to try what could be done, but when it was ren►einbered how nu - merous were the claims for relief which bad been forwarded from both countries in the present Session, he could not but-feel, that it became Parliament to make a fair stand, and only give way in cases where the distress was most obvious and severe. Such be considered the present case to he, and therefore it was that he was anxious if possible to afford the sufferers relict. Mr. PLUNKETT was sorry a motion so moderate as that submitted to the House by his Honourable Friend had not been acceded to by the Chancel lor of ll►e ExcheqUer. His conduct. in this in stance4ifforded no exemplification of that disposi tion for which he gave himself credit. The Right Hon. Gentleman had contended that Government were not bound in good faith ,to repeal the Win dow Tax at the close of the war, by what had fallen from the Irish Chancellor of the Exche quer. But he (Mr. Plunkett) begged to refer them to the language of the Acts of Parliament themselves. From these he contended, that the Window Tax.was imposed merely as a war tax in 1799, and in the Act which passed a year after wards, it would be found that this tax was im- • • ppsed " for keeping up an efficient force of 43,073 Men." It was therefore expressly enacted to maintain a war establishment ; and if this were not under such circumstances a war tax, he did not know what a war tax was. In an Act of the same Session, for preventing frauds, and for the better collecting of this duty, it was enacted that it should conti nu e in force three years, provided the war should continue so long. He was sur prisemr after this that time Right Hon, Gentleman should have doubt's on the subject of its having been merely a war duty ; and , if any yet remained in his mind, he trusted they did not'extend to any body else. If it had not been repealed at the time the Peace of Amiens was concluded, as it ought to have been, that was no reason for re fusing to repeal it now. But for the Right Hon. Gentlethan to do so would be an act of injustice to the public creditor. This objection had been answered by the Chancellor of . the: Exchequer himself, when he offered to take off 25 per cent. If he considered- that to repeal the Tax would be to break - faith with the public creditor, he would ask the Right lion. Gentleman ifm he meant to break faith with the public Creditor, or if he considered the reduction of a fourth part of the Tax to be hut the fourth part of a breach of faith? The more he thought on the subject, the more he was surprised that the motion for a Committee should be resisted. He proceeded to show, by a series of financial statements, that the increase of duties had tailed to produce a corresponding increase of re , Penue. Ireland, he admitted, had not contributed her 2-17rhs to the exigencies of the .State, which she was bound to provide by the Act of Union ; but he maintained that she had never theless furnished her fair proportion according to - her means, hild must not be taxed beyond her strength. In England, since the war, the people had been relieved of taxes to the amount of 17,000,000/.—in Ireland the burdens from which they had been relieved exceeded nor 2 or 300,0001 The ChancellOr of the Exchequer had wished to retain the Income Tax in time of peece", and had said, without it the business of the country could not be carried on ; yet when the House decided that it •should be.aboliihcd, be voluntarily sur rendered the War Malt Duty. Having yielded thus to the sense of the people of England, he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman if on the present occasion be ought not to bow in the same way to the people of Ireland ? Time relief an- nouneed had been said to be preferable to the Committee. lie wished to take the relief offered and go into the Committee. Mr. PEEL declared no man, however nearly connected with Ireland, could be more anxious to see her relieved from taxation than he was ; but before they took off her burdens, they must con sider what means other bodies possessed, on whom if she were relieved, they must be thrown. He contended the Governn►ent were not bound in good faith to repeal the Window Tax at the close of the ar by any pledge that had bee►► given by the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. Corry, who, on proposing it, had said it was a tax new, to Ireland, bad not calculated on its producing more than 60,0001. and he had said " on the re- turn of peace, if it were found a grievance or a burden, it could he taken off," but saying this he had not bound his successors in . offiee to procure its repeal when peace returned. In 1800, another Act of Parliament renewed the tax for three years, and in the same Session air Act passed for regulating the collection of it. By the first Act that passed, all houses had been rated ac- cording to the number of windows open on the Ist of January, 1799.,, This was very naturally complained of, and accordingly, in the year 1800, it was enacted, that that regulation should continue in force for three years longer, if the war should last so long, and then, or if peace should come sooner, those regulations, and not the Tax, were to be abolished, and housei were in future to he rated on the same principle as in England. Peace came within the three years, and then the Tax continued, but the objection able regulations ceased. Mr. Corry afterwards renewed the Tax Without considering that he %vas in any way guilty of a breach of good faith. In 1807 the Right Hon. Baronet "(Sir John New- port) brought in a Bill for regulating the pay ment of this Tax in Ireland in the same manner as in England. But he could, not find that any clause had been introduced into that Bill, con taining or even implying a pledge that the Tax should continue only during the time of war.-- , This part of his argument was, he thought, quite sufficient to satisfy the House of the fallacy of the notion that there was any such pledge given as had been asserted. There ivas a part of the argumcnt..against this Tax which would be en- titled to much more consideration than all that had been said about a pledge, namely, if it could he shewn that this Tax increased the extent of the contagious fever in Ireland. When he (Mr. Peel) was engaged in investigations relative to the fever, it occurred to him that some windows might have been closed, which if opened might have assisted the -recovery of patients, and pre ,iented t h'e progress of disease. With this view it 5 0 0 was that he had thought it his duty to Is f official order, authorising the opening. °viola window which a medical man should certif.,' TO by being opened contribute to the he ll " ; ' ,J6 11 inhabitants. The result of this order o°,olo very fair criterion for j u dging how far it W,aere that this Tax had contributed to increase °loth( valence pf the fever. 'What, tioen, bad bee thi s number of applications in consequen ce O eiitt order? In Dublin, not one; in Kildare, not °I) e; Waterford, only one ; in Limerick, "I i re , Cork, none. Io short, over the whole ° „ o s (° land, there had only been seven appliea tt i 110 have windows opened in consequence O.s th,, order.— Hear, hear, hear !)—frorn might he fairly deduced that this lax ha 0 1° operated to increase the fever. When th e to efl, of houses chief' affected by t his tax u' 65 .0 0 into consideration y , it would be s een that t lils f el what might be expected. lii Irelaed,co, house having less than seven windows an j j ( Jo t/ hearths, was exemed frotn the tax. Il e mean to say that his tax did not bear in", 115 ip on the lower orders of the people. . 13 p r il l direct operation could not have any of the fever. It must therefore be clears argument founded on the effect of this tasVed reference to the fever, must want all force; was one other part of the a r g ument to t ", s ioe must refer. It was,-th a t th e re had not beets dit the peace a remission of taxes in same proportion as in G rea t Britain. 1 , 1) ; 0 1 completely fallacious. E ng l a nd raised Taxes by the Property T a x a nd others, 111.07 bl not extend to Ireland. Ireland raised li toll s cll e# way of loan. By the consolidation of tile o d piers of the two kingdoms, Englauti hati.bste herself liable for the loans of Ireland• fore, it could net be said that Ireland `; l ,og l ,, f' fairly treated. On the whble question , no greater reduction could now be [lo de , t doe tax than that now proposed by his Friend. b Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, be tbotigh‘ - : e i persuade the House that those who '''', 9 " c a t sil (g „' the remission of this lax, favoured 9 ' l " a : ft iy; which, in' its relief, must principallY eer, lower classes. With respect to the fec t wol' A l pledged himself that the concurw" " 5 , 2 i I°- of medical men allowed that the cout a g.lo l " 4 :, been extended by the st o ppi n g up of ' e s t " He could speak with parti cu lar colinaerieerojei and on the authority of Dr. BarrY, Ije .tlfef tained that the spreading of the contagl dr"! was to be traced to windows being; eh' se( i e t t ile As a proof of this, it had b e en found t re at lower apartments of lodging-houses, whe windows were not closed up, were in a cote''`' healthy state, while the, tipper apart te windows had been clnsed'Up, were ° 54 „f th e anentably diseased. So mu c h for this pa r ' the ergument, when, on th e ver y showing ° 0 Right Hon. Gentleman (who said that ` vbe hillt health 'of the people was concerned evetYh are' else should give way), this Tax ough t tc' /r e pealed. Then as to th e financial sta te ° land, he maintained that th e repeal O f t he s erP was a measure not only for the country was no longer able if , it. It was ,no act of grace for Great S t yli to take upon itself -the liability for t n he of Ireland, because it was thole be ir absolutely and unavoidably necess"q" vs° the time of the Union the window re% w 35 rrs r Is. to 3s: for each window, whereas now it „ from 4s. to 14s. ; a ll t h e ot h er taxes bad be e ' i ; l ioa creased, sonic of them even, in a larger Il r°l“l oii te i wise, but neces —the tax on wine for instance. The tax 01 . 0 ,0 now, compared with what it was at ih e " o {o the Union, was increased in the proportiond „eh to two, and so far from its being alt e " i t `i t be t an increase to the Revenue, the fact %ca",,): o .l o ' Revenne from wine now, as compared " 11 .0,ed 1 what it , had been at the Union, had din i titir c oll s , e the proportion of one to two. Tl : e , 11 '," ' quence of the immense increase of taxau °l- iders' n , land had been to encourage Irish laud" wet' become absentees. The people of 1" I '" I n ei 11 , 6 fully entitled to the remissio n o f this ta x i hoped the House would be convinced lh at ''ee and good faith, and, he wo u ld add, stel ae of yi quire(' them to accede to the propos ith°ll Hon. Friend. e ef Mr. PEEL ' explained. fo le , Sir N. COLTHURST spoke strongly in 3 sea tethe elf the repeal of the Tax. H e co nfirmed tent of the Right Hon. B aro net as (0 t r tCI of closing up windows b ar i ng been in -° increase the contagions fever. g" tl! Sir F. FLOOD thought this measur e , 7.elsl i j the lives of thousands of the people °` " i r eris e e and the honour of Parliament. He was v i " that the motion for a Committee to ing`,.l.rell ti the subject was resisted, especially 'lf te • a l tirn e it elle c the Chancellor of the Excheq u er bad He must call this a mort a l tax, 1.491 1; 1 3 e 00 0 that it occasioned the death of at le 3 . m ost ' l ;5 sons in the capital 'of Ireland. It wi 39 ,; - t hat lancholy case. If fact, it mi g ht be sa"„ c e 1 r„," - Tax, by occasioning windows to be e,i ( I-ic ra had converted the houses into gra ves. ca , ( P - § tained that Parliament was pledged" all '8 rt Tax to continue only during the we': , t er glad that the Chancellor of the Exc ne "i l now Chancellof of the Exchequer' for Ir e ' al u id more. humanity anti more knowledg e cQ eref °l4l l rest in the breast of any man. It was , t i P 1111, A li f with much confidence he appealed to t` t r e ,, F ie Hon. Gentleman on the subject of till s t fa least be hoped, that instead of One -4° "'„ - Chancellor of the EXchequer would agree (- ofie-half. *ch 11$ f Mr. GRATTAN said, that the Parrs --I) ,: c itY been laid upon the table skewed the ece' s- rfeel . ; seceding to the motion of his Hon• F r i e n l d t . l a t ( 1 . *ere Papers on the table which slievv et 'e - n j 0 0 "; pfoduce of the tax had fallen off 'front 3.-/ it to 300,0001. There were also Par r ' -6, 11 :d sheAred the number of those capable ot tax had diminished. As to what had he; 9 ele e respecting the Parliament departing trout 00 gageMent (he did not speak 'it in an accu t/t sense), that was a question on wiiieh the 00etif mittee might decide. The case of 6°Yertsef°f issuing orders, which in effect repealed a n re iel e c the Legislature, was of itself sufficient ° e( tb an inquiry necessary. It had been said I I e to Q` Petitions all prayed for te total repeal of but did it therefore follow that the "11l th t Fit Ai 12f t 1 ask e 11, ) n,