The Sun. — London, England, 1808-04-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS. VONDAY, APRIL 4. ORDERS IN COUNCIL, . . - 'Tho House were employed from - half: past two till t'&tr 'in further hearing,evidence respelling the operation of these measures; when the follcming Gentlemen and Merchants were called to the Bar 'and re-examined :—Messrs, Mullett, Rat hbone, Ox ley, Garel, M.P. and Kender. It was then moved, 'that the' evidence be printed ; and it was ordered that the Canoe' do sum up on Wednesday next. A conversation arose reSpeeting the time when Counel should sum up. It was contended by Lords Holland, Lauderdale, and Audcland, that the evi ,dence should, be printed, and in' the hands of their Lordships before Counsel summed tip ; otherwise it was to no purpose the evidence was otdered to be Printed, unless those Noble Lords who had .not art ,t;pportenity of hearing thp Witnesses examined, might have it to refer to when the Learned Counsel adverted to any. particular passage of it. Lord HAW4ESBUtt)i was quite of, a different opi nion respelling the mode of proceeding; and thought the House would best understand the evidence after the Learned Counsel had enterel into an explana tion of it. No alteration was made in the Order. The irltib'fost India Trade Bill, the Irish Ware- Vaising l ll,'and.some 'Private Bills, were brought up from the Commons, and read a first time.' 11 , 1 r. Johnstone, from the Inspe6tor-General's Office, presented an , A.ccount of the ,state of the. J.4ih, in 4reland.—. 7 ordered to lie on the. table,' The Bills before the House were then forwarded. in their respective stages. In the, Coininittee on the Cotton 'Wool Bill; Lord LAVDERDALB Objeaed to a clause in the Bill,.which tended to arm the prerogative with an undue power, the elfeEts of which might prove very injurious. • Lord BAuttuusT said, that the Bill gave no poWer" to the Crown, of which the Crown was not already 19 possession. the Cotton Export Prohibition Bill, and the Je suits Bark Prohibition Bil 4 next went'through the Committee. • • " • 7ts(3l'd LAUPERDAL/4 hinted his objettions to the former, which, "however, 'he should refrain from stating in detail at present, ai the debate on this and the other Bill, was understood to take place un flit third reading. 1. Lord HOLLAND presented a Petition on the part of Mr. Finnan Dc Taaset, a merchant. wito,had.deal t largely in 'the exportation of Jesuits Bark.—The Pe tition was ordered to lie on the table. Lord HOLLAND next moved for an Account of the quantity,. of Jesuits' Bark imported for home Consumption, or exported to Ireland, during 4he last eighteen years,, distinguishing the amoupt o 1 'each six years.—Ordered. • _ _ ..Lord LAVDRDALE also moved for,an , Account of the qUantity of - Bark exported during the same period, to Denmark, America„ . & - c.—Ordercci. The three Bills were then reported, and ordered to be 'read a third time at - IThursday next, when it is expe&ed they be debated. SCOTS lUDICATURk,:f A Petition was presented by Lord HOLLAND, on the part of the Magistrates of Arbroath, claiming for Scotland the privileges of the trial by Jury.— Ordered to lie on the table. The Orders in Council Indemnity Bill was then read a second time, on-which occasion, Lord LAUDERDALE tool► occasion to congratulate his Majesty's Ministers on their prudence in adopt ing'most of the clauses which he and his friendi had suggested in the course of the debates on thz Orders in Council. Loi - d BATHURST said, that no clauses were in troduced into the Bill but such as were necessary to distinguish between Avkat regarded imports and expOrts. The Bill was read a second time,.and ordered to he Committed on Friday next. _ The Lotto CiiAt4cEt4.ott then delivered his opi nion at some length on the Appeal, Hilly. Spence, and deferred final judgment Until to-morrow. Adjourned. ,: HOUSE OF COMMONS. ' MONDAY, APRIL. 4. Thelma) ApvpcATß of SCOTLAND gave notipe, that he would, on Monday next, move for leave to bring w a Bill for the better mgulation and prescrva t of the Public Records in that country. The Irish Warehousing Bill was read a thud time and , passed. The Wool Exportation Bill Wati read a- Second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. MISREPRESENTATION. Lir.. H. 'WELLESLEY said he was„under the neces sity trespassing fOr a few moments upon the time of the House, in consequence Oa gross mid. representation (iti.erted in a Morning,Paper).of se vi.dral. passages in the speeeli deliveted by an Hon: ptre4Or, art Thursilsy last. Mr. Wellesley observ ed, that the. statement 'contained in the Paper which be held in his band, was direaly and absolutely con traditaory to the whole tenor of .the Hon. Gentle!. man's „speech, at' least; as far as 'it related per vinally to. Lord Wellesley and to himself Whatever opinions that Honourable : Gentleman may have expressed with respat • to the gene ral arrangement in (rude, he entirely. disclaim ed any Imputations of a personal, kind. He was .persaa led that the House would feel with him, that to suffermisrepresentations of such a tendency to go forth uncontradiaed, could not fail to lie highly in.. jurious to the Characters of the individuals alluded to, and ilterefore?'that he need make no apology for having brought thesUbjed before the HOuSe; As, however, heves willing to believe that the mi,re ,presetitationkof which he complained were `lot in sentional; on 'the part Of the'persons concerned in' the paper to he i alluded, lie should, with the leave of the Housei rest satisfied with having brought' the .subjeel under its notice; in the hope that this %Willd be a sufficient warning to thoie persons to be enure cautious and More accurate in fUttirtL Mr. It. Tuoil N TON said, he understood his speech on a former evening to be the one alluded to, and iituarked that fieVeral friendslhAd litated to him, hbw initbh it was Enisrepreiented, which afterwards was Fmfirtned by his (mu purusal wha; was attri butte! to him. Though he had animadverted strong ly on tile general system of policy in lniia, and, the particular transactions in Oude, be bad pointedly signiherl, that he Meant to impute nothing disre 7 speaful to the personal chara&er of the Noble Mar, quis or of the Hon. Gent. himself. Had he been only silent as to every thin; of a personal tendency, the allusions in the newspaper would have been high ly unjustifiable, but when he had in two separate debates adopted the language thrown out as a chal lenge by an Hon. Baronet, and admitted with him that there was no where , an attempt to wound the Noble Marquis by personal insinuation, Mr. Thorn ton thought it very unfortunate that an erroneous report should mislead the public mind. He believed the misrepresentation arose from accident, not from design, mid therefore hoped no further steps would be taken against the proprietors of the paler in question. - The SPEAKER hoped the House would excuse him for remarking, that. however the pra6lioe may have been tolerated, tht• House -was always at liberty to . limit and to punish any infradion of its privileges in the publication of.what purported to be the reports of its proceedings. At present, he did not understand that any complaint was made with a' view to the animadversion of the House. Lord TEMPLE wished lo know, whether it vas intended to found any motion,on the Papers preSent ed relative to the Pardarelles. Mr. W. TAYLOR answered, that it was his inten tion to offer a motion on the subjeEt of these Papers on the earliest open day after the recess. An order was made that the Papers be taken into consideration on Thursday, May 5, when Mr. TAT- Loa said be would move for a Committee upon them. -Mr. Ron , . presented a Petition from the British Museum, praying the annual aid. Mr. HUSKISSON presented some further estimates of miscellaneous services. . . Mr, HUSKISSON brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply. • i . The Resolutions making various grants for miscel laneous services were agreed to. . Mr..W.H.t wroN brought up the Report, of the Committee of Ways and Means. The Resolutiofts were agreed to. , . ThelnAwcst.Loa of the EXotIEQUER thought it right to state; that the restrictions on car r yi ng arm for the pretended destru&ion of other animals, but in reality for the destruCtion of game, was to extend to rabbits. Mr. CALCRAFT wished to know, whether it was not intended to extend the same : prohibitinn. to the killing of blachbirc6 and sparrows latigh). . Mr. Nxcuoi.sow CALvEnT thought rabbit's a great nuisance on fartns, and that every tanner ought to be all Owed to kill them on his own lands. Sir ..eiIiTHUR IcELLESLEY rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given,. to move for leave to bring irfa Bill to amend the Law now in force in Ireland,, respecting Persons entering into Recogni zances in Criminal Cases. He said; the necessity of • some legislilive provision on this subject must be ob ,vious.to every person acquainted with the manner in which Recognizances were entered into in Ireland.. He had, therefore, prepared a•Bill, which he;now desired to submit to the consideration of the House. It was not his"intention to make this a retrospective Bill, and to call now for the payment of the forfeited Reeognizances, of which, he was sorry to say, there were a great number : his object was, if possible, to introduce Regulations which should prevent the evil for the future. It was well known that numbers of cases occurred that persons without any property entered into RecOgnizauces, and readily swore themselves worth the sum required; of course, if the Recognizance was forteited, the sum could not be levied, or, very often, the persons found. Upon this point he should propose that a person entering into a recognizance, should swear himself worth double the sum required, and that. he should also give his place of abode upon 'oath. He also . proposed.to give the Judges of Assize power. to examine into the state of the property of persons who had entered into recognizances, in order to ascertain whether it was sufficient to answer .the amount of the recognizance, 'and to authorise them to confine persons mlnise property should not be. found sufficient to, discharge the engagement they had entered into. - These , were the leading features of the Bill which he had to propose, and which he trusted would meet With the approbation of the, House. He then concluded with moving for leave , to bring iu the Bill. Mr. Al. A. TAYLOR wished to be informed whether forfeited recogitizances were not estreated. into the:Exchequer in Ireland, as they were in Eng.. land. .•. Sir A. WELLESLEY replied that they were not estreated into the Exchequer Ireland .; they were applied to the purpose of making and repairing' roads, &c. &c, and were levied by County ColleCtors.. Sir JOHN .NEI-VPOAT said, he. was perfectly aware - of the necessity of making some, Legislative provision upon this subject ; but he feared this Bill would not altogether answer the purpose-for Which it was intended. There were many essential points which appeared to him to have been omitted.; he hoped, therefore, that bill , time would be given, during the progress of the Bill, to make it as perfect as possible. With regard tcribe power given to . the Judges of the Assizes to investigate' the property of. persons who bad ehtered into reeognizances, he thought it would be throwing a great burthen upon the Judges, who; from a. variety of causes, had more btisiness at the Assizes already than they could well ptirforin, Si 4. WELLES,LEY said, it was by no means his wish to burry the Bill ; it was his intention to move that the Bill should be printed, and that full time should be given for its consideration. He beg ged, however, to observe, that this Bill had been, brought in after repealed consultatiOn with thos e who, from their situation, were best qualified to form correct• opinions upon this subject, and that part of the Bill to which the Hon. Baronet•had ad verted in the conclusion of his speech was inserted by, the consent of 'those who were to carry the Bill Into execution. After a few worth from Mr. PA 11NU7.1, the Motion Was agreed ito, and the Bill brought itt, read A first time; and ordered, to be read a , second time on Thurs day,_ and , printed. Mr. IFiLLIAMS WYNIVAT ruse, pnrsuant to his notice, to move that there be laid before the Ro u g e a Copy of ttu MillUte2 (dale Froc9edingt ot the Sus. sex Maine Committee, so far as the samerelated to the Petition Of Mr. Sergison. He declared that be hod no intention whatsoever to impeach the de cision Of the Cemmitoe, or to recall to the jurisdic tion of the Hodie what it so properly delegated to the hands of a selea body. On the contrary, his desire was, to fortify and preserve the . rights of_. Committees, by - establishing .a-,permanent barrier against Resplutions of the House which frequent ly. milled the Committees. He had already given notice of his intention to propose, in the next Session, a measure relative to the general .exchange of lists on questions of comroVerted,...ele4lou. He conceived 'that the Minines'qf the Sassex'dena mittee, sliewing the imperfeCtion of. the `law as it stood, by the construction the Committee had felt itself bound .te put on it, would materially strengthen the grounds on which he meant to submit his intended preposition to the House. •He conclud ed with moving for a Copy of the Minutes relating to Mr. Sergison s Petition. The. CiiiiiNCELIJOR. of the EXCHEQUER knew -no instance of moving for the Minntei of an El pion committee, except when the Committee itself wished for a proeeeding on them. Every ner, cpssary use may be made of the decision of the'Com-• ipittee, and every appeal trade in argument to the grounds of that decision, as if they were before the. House. The , intended measure of the 'Hon. and Learned Gentleman may; therefore; as well be offered without the Minutes, and of course he thought it wrong to innovate on'the practice of the- House, or to cast an implied refle6tion on the Com- . mittep, by calling for them. Sir AUTH PH . PIGOTT thought no proper Par liamentary reference could be made to the. decision of the §ussex Committee, and certainly not to the groOds of: it,. unlesi the: minutes were before the House. • .17.44hEi thought it absolutely necessary that the Minutes of the,Cornmittee should be before the House, and as a Member -of that Committee, saw no objealon. The Committee found itself by a Itesolution 'of the House precluded from taking Sergison's. Petition into consideration, Mr. Fuller !was therefore declared duly elected. The situatidn ;of the case was strange. Mr. Sergison could : not. 'be supposed duly ele6ted, because there was , a ma jority of fifty-seven votes against him. Neither could Mr. Fuller, because he had given in a deelara- . • tion abandoning his seat. - Yet, in these circumstances, Mr. Fuller was declared duly elated, because the Resolution of the House prohibited the considera tion of Mr. Sergison's case. It wRs most material to :lfave.theso faCts in ciproper'shape before the House, with . a view to the proposed legislative remedy, which he hoped would be brought forward early iu this Session, instead .of being deterred to the .next.- • Sir THOMAS TUBTOA thought it a grievous hardship on Mr. Sergison that his case could not be taken into consideration,and thought the proposed legislative retnedy•excee . dingly pi - 61)er : but he could not therefore allow the ,call tor. the `Minutes of the Committee, .which was neither necessary nor proper. Lord TEMPLE allowed the propriety of the conduct of this, CoMMittee, but contended that the' Grenville AO was frittered away by Resolutions of the House interfering with the general itiicretiOn of the Committee. Mr. GRAHAM objected to the prodeetion-of-the List. Me. PONSONBY thtiught it necessary to have the•grounds of the decision in. a substantive form, in order to shew the necessity of an Act of the Legi slature to remedy the existing deficiencies. The .question being called tor the • House divided, ; • ur the Motion - •.• 31 Against it • . - - Sh Majority - . •ay FINANCE COMMITTEE. 1111.. LIDDULPH ruse to make his promised mo tion on the constitution 'of the. Committee of stance. It appeared to him to be of the utmost im portance that that Committee should be so consti tuted,. that the public should not have the least sus picion of any management having been used in its formation.' He disclaimed all invidious or personal motives. , His.motion was deed against the Chair man of the Committee of Ways and Means, and not against any, other particular person. On the first appointment of the. Conimittee of Finance, for ; which he had had the honour to move, it was felly, understood that no .persen holding an office should be included in it ; and although it had ap peared that a Noble ViscoUnt was - SO included,, yet .ou a subsequent. formation of a similar Committee, that Noble Viscount's name was omitted in the list, on the specific ground that he held a sinecure place. It certainty was not without example that persons holding odiees had been included in such Commit tees. In the Committee of 3797 for instance ; but then the House would recollect that that Committee was formed-in a manner contrary to the wish of the ~Hcin. Member by whom it had been proposed. He would not attempt to argue . incompetence on the pin of that Committee. Its reports, which were on the table, Were the best guides which the House cpuld have in foiming their opinion of it. The first oblation which he anticipated to his Motion was, that the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Meanswas not appointed by the Crown ; but was' called to his situation' b' the Suffrages of the Honse. His 'Resolution: was framed so' as to acknowledge this; but still it . was perkily well known, that the nomination did prOceed from the other side of the House; it was perfectly understood that the Chair.= mail of the Committee of Ways and Means was under the absolute patronage of the Chancellor of the' Exchequer; at lease he might state, tlizit the K4O - came &nal the Ministerial 'Benches, and that the House generally found it . cotlvenient tti accede to that proposition. He was anxious that the nancial 'Ceinmittee, like Caesar's . wife; should not only be:, .free front guilt but tree from snspiciOn. l f t Le principle of Isis Resoletion were related, it might' happen that a committee might .he appointed at the commencethent of a Session,cortipth;ed of twenty five Meinbera net ht any office, and that by the end Of the Session, 'the wisule might be in official situations.. He hada strong objection to see any of-" men in the Finance Committee ; he had a cuiiarly strOrig objeelion to see the CilairMan of the Conitnittee of Ways and Means there, thinking as he did, and as he had formerly declared to the House; that to that sit9ation no emolument ought to be at-. tached. He acknowledged, that on the oct-Itsion to allUdecl, few persons coincided with him in sentiment, but he expressed himself to be still of opinion, that it was one of the greatest solecism's which the institution of the House exhibited, that any Member of it should be paid for doing his duty. He was aware that - the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Meansexectited many important duties, but he was convinced that that part of those duties which wits eohnefibed- with therevenuemight be-un dertaken without expence by - some of the persons on tbe Treasury Bench, and that that part of the duties which - was conpe6ted with local interests, ought to be undertaken by the representatives of those places or districts, the interests of which were affeaed..--- • At tome'futore period be Would again submit to 'hp House the propriety of abolishing the salary at pre sent given to the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means. The success of 'that motion must in a great measure depend upon the temper of the Financial Committee. lf they went as deeply into retrenchment as be wished them, he had Tittle doubt that such a - measure would be recommended by' them as oneof 'predicable and adviseable reform. With , out, theretore, imputing any thing' dishonourable try the present Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Meahs,:it was impossible, • reasoning upon th e priticipleiby winch human nature was actuated, to suppose that that Gentleman . could bp so zealous. member -of the Committee of retrenchment, as if - he were not in possession of a lucrative situation...-. • It was a'principle of English law, that no man should be a Judge in his own case. In Juries, to shear that a man had the slightest interest iq that which was' to be submitted to his own investigation, sufficiently warranted a.challonge. This was a case strietlY analogous to the present . . Besides * eat the score of the duties imposed on ,the Honourable Genl.. tleman in question, as Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, he might well be excused from filling another situation, by which his labours were aggravated, although he (Mr. Biddulph) ellowed that, he had only once seen that HoneurableQoCle , .. Man in the Finance Committee !town. He couldr 'state to the House, however, that the next Report of.-4 the Finance committee would not be exactly • what it, would-haveyheee had that Hon. Gentleman not a•ttencled : eveg .that once. It rnighi.be better-4 might bi,worse--unquestionably it would be differ ;ern, Waving declared his •intention Of folloWing up • his motion, should it be.agreed to, with another for adding the Hon. J. W. Ward Moving th artitoti i ie Committee t in .9 J i t owi ted p l Resolution Finance , e concluded " That Mr: Richard Wharton having. been eallect, , hr.thif House to ;fie Chair ofthe Committee of Ways and Meansl, be e )pc u ou t 4e 're Ad in t s i : ca l i3 , t t . L u th r L i e h o e , aqvhdancp b;i the Corninitteq,t Finance." ; had H R on of . ge ti rtiern 4 ! C u ill P E ul 9 d U li 4 0 4 9 adduced some precedent, or would 'have Made. out some strong case, ere jie had snbmitted to the Home a iriptiorewhicli seemed to cast no slight iMpLitgigq on,the - Hen. Gentieman against whom it was ed, more especially When it was coptiected *ith oae of his laitobservatiops, By that observiition it iv-, peered that a majority in the Committee of Finanest had been - recently occasioned by the presence of the Chairman of the , Committee of Ways and 'Means, and -that bad not that ,circumstance occurred, the Hon. Mover's attention would not have been direaed to ~tlie subject. - To him it appeared inippssibiSst without the establishment of some grave chargp, to remove a•Member from a situation to which he had been chosen by' - the House. The Hop. Gentleman said he thought it necessary to do this = because ba imagined, that the Chairman of the Committee of 'Ways and Means-:was an Vtficer appointed by vernMent. • It was not so. He was appeifited by the House', who voted him into that situation,. AS to the recominendatioe of hii Majesty's Minuiteis, the Honourable Gentieman might as well apply hill reasoning -on that subjeet to any ( - Abet act of 1141 House. The . H.;tl - .. Gentleman fancied it ppoilko that iof-a' Committee composed at the coininencli meat of a Session of twenty-five Members, hplding., no official' Sifitatiuns, the whole, - ere tile close oill sinne Session, might become possessed of Otfit.•es... - .: But was nut 'the Hon. Gentletnan aware tbat by ail appointnient to +mice, a Member-vacated his seat ia the House, and consequently in a Committee; 1 11 4 t u h lo at use oni i h a t - , r i e t - l e n led ,the tu il n . aspt ( ot s iw h e Fi ti d ltto t t l ir e ge . li b )itl e sit, r ar e ot . ep e e l i e: i i i e , Committee or not, there hatt been instances 'since the establishreent,` , " the Finance Committee, of individUalS who; 1111 V- 1 "! 6 .; accepted ()tikes, had been sent hack to their quote tuents, and• who had *been re-etected, but v(lio 144 not been re-appointed Members of the Committal He was far from being ready to adtrift, that becatist his Majesty thougot proper to confer an otlice On 014" cdusidered as disqualified f o r Any Member of the - House, th a t h e ought thei4or et q' lie duty to wniFf any other Member of the Hous e was competent."'" He denied that because a person was in office, he., must necessarily be distrusted. He did not Poss' What were the Honourable Gentleman's views, of public life, but it he were desirous of has-tug the, portunity of discharging any great public duty with. fidelity, he did not think that he Might to fall in tli estimation of the world were lie to embrace sueil'al opportunity if it were afforded' him. Of thiS her h w i a m s w su e r r e e , that not t he i th a tH on, opinion,G tlilem en who surrounded. that men pursued the noblest road to'farne by Seeking it in public utility. He trusted , t heref re, that th e nd duties th o a th f t ai Iy ey. c t ( l:O n e r g ni l t i:, House would not feel that the a tee would be worse performed because it inclode4 • within it persons holding official situations. leis could an objection apply to a Gentleman chiii . fq, by the House, in consequence of his distingui#o l character and talents, to till the honourable situation WChairilian of the Committee Of Ways and M eans ; as, he on" that account tO be distrusted ? As wel', Might the Speaker of the House be distrusted. Nei ther situation was the appointment of Governm ent. ; Beth were in .the election of the House, and to no Oentlillianeln; filled eith e r, could any dishonours - ' ble imputation on that account with any, thing like, justice tar plausibility be attached. Mr. lk 1-11TBRL,-1 D allowed ihat he felt the ut most ine.ignaiion, in common with the Right Hal., Gentlernaiii.whleieser it was.siated that all Placebo Must necessasilp..be dishonest. He admitted that situations, itieh.as, that Right Hon. Gentleinanfitle d, . were the [nest laud.ible objects of ambition„ and Ire miently Called birth the noblest energies of the hu rnan mind. ititL path to office might be, and Ole? had beeta,,,tbe pilot, of honour.J. but unfortunateir other paths had sometimes been pursued, by whic' . QttiCq hack become disrepuyable. - There we re Pauli: •