The Sun. — London, England, 1838-05-15 00:00:00

Position that a plan which embodied that principle would be final and satisf actory. That, I say, is a p r op os iti on t h at was true at the time when those resolutions were carried. If at that time a measure had passed embodying that principle, having, as it would have, the concur rence of all th e popular leaders in Ireland, and having the faith of the Government and the assent of Parliament pledged to it, I think it would have been a final and satisfactory settlement of the question of Tithes and the affairs of the Church of Ireland. But, Sir, I cannot say so now. (Hear, hear.) I canno t say t h at any plan without that principle would be final and satisf ac t ory; b ut ne i t h er can I say, that any plan even con taining the p r i nc i p l e of the resolution of 1835 would now he final and satisfactory to the people of Ireland.—(Loud cheers and cries of " oh l") That, Sir, is the consequence of the change of circumstances.—(Cheers.) Such is ever the course in all matters of this kind.—(Hear, hear, he ar.) When Mr. Burke first proposed measures of concilia tion towards America, he proposed as a condition that the supremacy of this country should be acknowledged. But those mea. surer were not adopted ; and he afterwards proposed plans in which the question of supremacy was given up, and when he was taunted with having abandoned that important point, he in justification pleaded a change of circumstances. Again Mr. Canning proposed different plans fur Catholic emancipation containing securities, but he afterwards was an eager advocate of a plan containing no such securities. When he too, was reminded of his former propositions, what answer did he give? He said in this place, " I will not be a security grinder all my life;" and he added, " Circumstances have changed, and I see no advantage in proposing securities which now are inappropriate." So, sir, I also Must say that I do not conceive it would any part of our duty as a Go vernment to propose as a portion of a measure with respect to tithes in Ireland the imposition of a tax upon the clergy, according to the propo. sition of the Archbishops of Armagh and Cashel, if it met with very great oppositioon on one side of the House, and if to the people of Ireland it did not give satisfaction. But, sir, with regard to the great principle that it is just and fitting that the Church of Ireland should be obliged to contribute to the education of all classes of the people, without distinction of sect or persuasion, upon that great principle my opinion is unchanged.—(Great cheering, and hear.) I think it is ris'atter of justice to the people of Ireland, and neither by My speech nor my void will I deny it.—(Renewed cheers.) The at tempt, then, of the Hon. Baroat tonight is in the first place to in. duce this House to reverse the propositimi which was agreed to by the late Parliament, and to abandon the principle which that Parliament deliberately laid down. Now I, believing that principle to be a just one, cannot consent to that reversal.—(Cheers.) His'next attempt, and an obnoxious attempt it is, is by means of a resolution to this House to affix some stigma upon us, her Majesty's Government—a resolution declaring that whoever else may be able to carry the tithe resolutions into effect, it is impossible that in our hands that duty should fall.— (Cheers.) Now, Sir, 1 resist the proposition of the Hon. Baronet, be cause it involves the reversal of a resolution which contains a principle I hold to be a just one, and also because it is a proposition implying a stigma upon us which I will not consent to bear.—(Great cheering.) But, In my opinion, the proposition of the Hon. Baronet goes much further. —(Cheers.) I think that a proposition to rescind a resolution which, sat the time it was adopted, gave great satisfaction to the people of Ireland, and which they have always looked to as being con nectsad and identified with the principle of the present Administra. tion in Ireland, is an attempt to go back to another and an opposition course of policy—(Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition, and of " Yes, yes," from the Ministerial benches)—a course of policy which your legislation and your conduct as Houses of Parliament have con . d emned.—(Cheers ) In treating of this part of the question I must ad vert to a topic which may not be entirely agreeable to some of the Gen tlemen opposite, but which I think is intimately connected with the amendment now about to be proposed. Igo back, Sir, to the year 18'29. No one more rejoieed than I did in that measure of justice and policy which was sanctioned by the Parliament in that year. But it certainly was accompanied by circumstances the most unfortunate that could accompany a measure of feeling and conciliation. In the first place, after having been refused year after year to the supplications and petitions of . the people of Ireland, it was accomplished at a time when the Catholic Association of Ireland had assumed the most menacing attitude, and when many Members of this House, forming a very considerable mino rity, and which was at one time led by a Noble Lord opposite, the Mem ber for Buckinghamshire (the Marquis of Chan dos), would have said that that it was a concession made to fear, and not inspired by a sense of jus. tice.—(Hear.) The misfortune of that impression it the first place Was, that those who had gained this victory in Ireland, not relying upon the sense of this country in having obtained a triumph for them thought that a repetition of the means by which they had succeeded, that a return to a system of agitation, would gain for them any object they might afterwards urge. The measure of Catholic emancipation had another fault ; it was carried into effect by those who, till the too utent they proposed it, had led the people of England to believe that th ey were the firmest opposers of any such measure.—(Hear, hear.) The Prjme Minister, the Lord Chancellor, the Home Secretary—who WAS the leader of this House—had one and all declared in the previous session that an alteration in the laws regarding Catholics involved a fun damentalchange in the Protestant Constitution of the country, and Would be accompanied with great danger to the State,—(Loud cheers on both sides of the House.) When it was urged upon them that no ap. prehension :of any such consequences bad been expressed in many Places, their answer was, that the cry of danger to Church and state had not been universally raised, because there was on the part of the people a firm reliance that they would give the most uncompromising resistance to any alteration of those laws. But, in the next session of Parliament, con cession was made, and it brought upon the Government which made it a host of invectives, a series of the most violent denunciations and declamations, in which it Was declared that the people of England had been deceived, that their just expectations had been betrayed, and that those to whom they had looked for support were still more dangerous (according to the expres. sions of one Member of this House at that time) than the very Jesuits they professed to abhor.—(Great cheering.) There was also this nth thief accompanying that act, that the people of this country, seeing this Unexpected concession, under the guidance of the Noble Lord (the Mar quis of Chandos), who had not then such implicit confidence in the Right Hon. Gentleman as he appears; to have at the present moment—(Laugh ter and cheers)—after supporting him with their petitions in a motion to reject the third reading of the Bill. became exceedingly sensitive and jealous as to any further proposals that might be made with regard to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. Sir, we had to struggle with the diffi culties which have been incident to that measure.—(Hear, hear.) We have had to struggle, first, with that agitation which called for the re. Peal of the Union, and which we firmly opposed. We have had to struggle against those disorders in Ireland to remedy which Me had recourse to that eiolent and unconstitutional—but which we thought - necessary—measure, the Coercion Bill. Sir, after this measure, that expectation on that part of the people of Ireland that everything WitS to be yielded because it was asked in some manner was checked, and it at last subsided; but it did .not subside until the Members of the Present Government had, by their measures and conduct, infused a feel ing of confidence into the minds of the people of Ireland that they should have justice.—(Long-continued cheering.) Sir, the first resolution carried by this House upon which that confidence was founded is the resolution which it is now proposed to rescind. That was a resolution stating, upon grounds, as we thought, unimpeachable, a regard for the interests and a just consideration of the wishes and feelings of the People of Ireland, and embodying the substance of their own petitions. :r yo b resc i n d that resolution you adopt another course of policy, and it is now the question, What course of policy do you adopt ?" (Hear, hear.) For an answer to that question I must look to those who proposed the Catholic Emancipation Bill, and who proposed it under the circumstances to which I have alluded. Have they, ac cording to the principles of that Bill, endeavoured to procure for the people of Ireland those Advantages and that ,community of rights and equality of privileges which it was the object of the Bill to ob. taro for them ?—(Cheers.) What has been their, course with respect to the Municipal Corporation Bill ? They deny corporate righte to the people of Ireland because, as they assert, they are unfit to enjoy them in common with the people of England and of Scotland. What has been their conduct generally with regard to adminis tration in Ireland ?—(Loud cheers.) Why, they have formed a close union with those who were the most - decided enemies of Catholic Emancipation ; they have formed a close union with those who vio lently opposed that measure, and who declared that it was incon• 'latent with our Protestant Constitution, and who would have fain Pr ohibited the Roman Catholics of Ireland for e v e r from e n j o y in g t n s right s and privileges which Englishmen enjoy.---(Continued cheer. i h ) Why, then, it is to that course of policy you must return— (Hear, hear)—if you rescind this resolution.—(Hear, hear.) It is to a course of policy which says, True it is the Catholic Emancipation ct is passed, and cannot be revoked. It was passed against our Will It was passed in consequence of the circumstances which then took place inspiring dread and terror to a great degree among those who Were then the advisers of the. Crown. But although it cannot now be re pealed, this shall be done—it shall remain a dead letter on the statute. b oo k, and except by having seats in Parliament, and except by the pri. I liege of taki ng the Roman Catholic oath at the table of this House, no .„, i "nan Catholic shall ever partake of the advantage of that measure Which you have placed among the records of your statutes."—(Great c heering.) Such, I say, would be the effect of your rescinding this re solution; such, indeed, is the openly expressed wish of many : nay, some even go beyond that, and express a desire that the letter of that Statute should be repealed.—(Hear.) But, Sir, there is still something beyond this in the language which has been held with regard to the People of Ireland. We ask for the people of Ireland a fair considera tion of their interests and equal justice, as it they were part of our own comm,ru_ • t and as if they lived in any part of the west, south, or east of this island, The language that has been used, first by the Press, since by rricuy Members of the Tory party, and lastly by a very conspicuous cenve.'t to that party, of the justice and fairness of which towards the People or Ireland, I will leave it to the House to judge,—(Hear, hear.) I ant going to quote from a speech of a Honourable Baronet who lately, having been, as it were, a deserter from the ranks of Reform, has not been placed in any situation of trust and confidence, as deserters usually are not, but has been sent abroad through the country as a kind of tra. veiling courier—(Much laughter)—to expound the doctrines of the Conservative party to the people of this land—to explain the principles Which they wish to see established, and to obtain, by means of recruits to these opinions, that majority in this House by which their policy could be established.—(Cheers.) I will show you what he says of a por. tion of the people of Ireland, consisting of six millions and a half— (Loud cheering)—and what language he thinks fit to address to his c ountrymen with respect to them. He says, "The people of Ire. 150 d, of whom Mr. O'Connell talked so much, were, he was grieved to say the most miserable, ignorant, Popish, priest. ri dden populace, , and superstitious to a degree, of the inveteracy of Which Englishmen could form no conception. When Mr. O'Con. nell talked of the Irish, he left out of his consideration the Pro. testants, comprising nearly all the property, intelligence, honest rode. Pendence, and real importance of Ireland." As for the Catholic gen. tlem en, Ireland as for the Catholic merchants and Ro man Catholic farmers of , property, intelligence, honest independence, and real import. ' ri ce. did not belong to them. But there is a moral to this description; it is not merely a description for the sake of informing his audience what kind of people these Irish may be, but as one who has travelled in these parts. For be says further—" The Irish boasted of coming froere Carth age, and certainly they were Tyria n in one respect ; they wm de uble.tongued. The Irish were in many respects the antipodes to the English, an d i t was a b sur d t o p ro p ose that they should ha v e t h e p ower establishing Popish municipal corporations in Ireland." There is, I "Y, a moral in all this. You are to pour out every term of abuse , u i ) °n the People of Ireland ; you are to designate them as being ignorant is„,;(111, Priest.ridslen, and superstitious; y ou are to describe th em as mei,. o f no property, of no intelligence, of no importance In the country, as coni:utred with the Protestants, and all this you ar e you to d o i n or d er that ynu may be enabled to deny to th em their fair demands and be enabled to say to them—" Whatever the people England and Scotland may have, you are unworthy of Corporations -You must never look to be treated as equal to Englishmen, or have in. ` r usted to yo u th e f ranc hi se o f seltgoveremeat ; you are A supe rstitious herd, and far below our consideration to legislate about.'—(Much cheer ing.) That is the policy which is put forth by those who endea v e ur to ob tain the a ssen t o f th e peop l e of England to rescinding these resolu . ° , , 'L ui • — (Cheers.) Sir, as frequent allusion has been made to a quota ii introduced by me on a former occasion, I will venture again to allud e to it, and to allude also to that part of it which has always been , caref ully overlooked. In the course of a discussion in this H o u s e I re. ' er: " to certain words used by Mr. Fox; I did not quote th e words l tletnsalves, but gave the purport of them. It was a pa ss age i n which Jr. Fox Said that if you concede and find that the concession is not iheient you ought to concede again, and endeavour to please the people °f Ireland. J referred to these expressions as having fallen from Mr. Fox as a prelude to the weeds I was about to quote. Had they irordnt.he words of any great orator of antiquity, ;:ad they been the_ of Demothenes, or of Cicero, 110 doubt a fair i i ;!erpretation would ~ have been given to them, and it would have been said, "These are th e words o f an ora t or ; thi s is his warm and fervent manner of .4,'„'lng u tterance to his desire that the wishes and feelings of t h e people :iteen,rl eland sh mid be consulted." But, while -these expressi ons have . ca refully noted and quoted over and over again, yet the words 2.13, e h I really q uo t e d f rom M r. F ox himself, and to which they were introductory have, cx ?mt./ore cautela, been omitted. — (Hear, mar .) Mr. roxcaid •—:" My wish is, that the whole people of Ireland should have the same principles, the same system, the same operation of Government ; and, though it may be a subordinate consideration, that all classes should have an equal chance of emolument: in other words, I would have the whole Irish Government reguLted by Irish notion= and Irish prejudices; and I firmly believe, according to another Irish expression, the more she is under the Irish Government, the more will she be bound to English interests." The whole meaning of these words, and particularly the beginning of the passage, is, that the same operation of Government should be extended to all classes of her Majesty's subjects, whatever may be their creed—that a Protestant Sheriff should not be appointed and a Roman Catholic be excluded eot the sake of getting unjust' juries —that there should be no partiality in granting the franchise, so that municipal power should be monopolised by Protestants and refused to Roman Catholics—that, with regard to offices and emoluments, the profession of the Roman Catholic faith or of the Presbyterian faith should be no bar cn the part of any man to his possessing a civil qualification.—(Cheets.) These were the enlarged principles upon which Mr. Fox proceeded. They are principles which have been since sanctioned in great part by the Legislature, and they are the principles upon which the administration of Ireland has proceeded. And, Sir, let me tell you that I believe these prin ciples to be not only just, to be not only politic, but I believe that they are not only safe principles on which the Government of this country can proceed.—(Great cheering.) You have deprived your. selves of the means—whether it would ha v e b een w i se or not lo have retained them--of keeping the Roman Catholics in that de graded condition in which an Honourable Baronet has stated them to be.—(Hear, hear, hear.) They must have wealth—they must have importance—they must gain professional honour—they must acquire from day to day, as Ireland makes progress in trade and agriculture, more and more importance, they are in number six millions and a half, they are in influence and intelligence daily increasing; and I tell you it is not safe to use these people with contumely and contempt—(pro tracted cheers)—to foster in them feelings of alienation, and to think that you can maintain the empire of this country in the same state in which it has been in former days upheld.—(Renewed cheers.) I have recently seen a quotation, a part of which ran thus :—discordia snazimx res delabuntur —(Hear, jsear, and a laugh.) 'net maxim may be ape plicable not only to a party but to an empire.—(Cheers.) If you will stand together with Ireland, if you will make Ireland the strength of your strength, a part of your united body, then, indeed, with respect to any convulsions that may take place, with respect to any dangers that may threaten you, you may have the power to defeat and overcome them ; but if you divide that strength, and have three-fourths of the people of Ireland against you, and then have an insurrection in your colonies, or be threatened with danger from foreign powers, your means of defence, I say, are crippled, and your power for future exertions greatly impaired.—(Cheers.) You can no longer keep the people of Ireland subject to your sway as if they were a low, a vile, and an alien race. You cannot hope to maintain an empire on these conditions.—(Cheers.) It is therefore on these opposite princi. pies that I think the contest will have to be maintained. If the Hon Baronet should succeed in his proposition, I do consider that it will in effect be reversing the policy •n which you have, during the present ad_ ministration proceeded. It will be proclaiming to the whole people of Ireland—and they must expect it—that even in the rudest and harshest mode the Government must be maintained.—(Cries of " no," from the Opposition, and of " yes," and cheers from the Ministerial benches.) You must be prepared to avow this to them.—(Cheers) You cannot say at once that they are ignorant, priest-ridden, superstitious, and governed by a desire to subvert the Protestant Constitution, and that you neverthe less have confidence in them.—(Hear, hear.) You must do one thing or other; you must either say with me,that they are tit to be confided in— you must say, " We do confide in them, we join with them heart and hand as part of the empire," or you must on the other hand say, " You are unfit to be confided in, you are unfit to be trusted ; and our utmost means will he used to keep power in our own hands, and place none in authority in Ireland but those who belong to that party most adverse to the majority of the people." You must say for the future that you repent the line of policy you have hitherto adopted, and that these harsh means are those upon which you rely for maintaining your power.— (Cheers.) I entertain the strongest opinion of the propriety and jus tice of the course which the majority of this House has hitherto pur sued, and I call upon this House, as it values the peace of Ireland, and as it values the strength of the empire. to go with me into the care ful consideration of this question, and to reject the proposition which the Hon. Baronet will make. I move, Sir, that you do now leave the Chair.—(Loud cheers.) The clerk at the table then read the following resolutions from the Journals of the House : " That any surplus which may remain, after fully providing for the spiritual instruction of the members of the Established Church in Ire land, ought to be applied locally to the moral and religious education—. (Ministerial cheers)—of the people, without distinction of sect or cell gious persuasion. " That no measure upon the subject of tithes in Ireland can lead to a satisfactory and final adjustmeut which does not embcdy the principle contained in the foregoing resolution." Sir T. D. ACL AND rose and said.—lf by the simple proposition of rescinding the words of a resolution, to which, from the first time he heard them, he had all along entertained a strong objection, he sup posed himself to be instrumental in the slightest degree to the main tenance or support of a harsh mode of Government to that part of the United Kingdom, which, for years past, had been considered by him, and which, for years to come, would be anxiously considered as the most interesting part of the community, he would, indeed, shrink from the task he had undertaken—(Cheers)—a task for which he felt himself most unfitted and almost utterly unable to do justice to, and which he certainly would not/lave undertaken if he thought that it involved an examination or a general consideration of the policy to be pursued tO. wards Ireland, and which he would far less have performed if it im plied anything harsh or unkind towards her—(Cheers.) There were many things in the situation in which he found himself placed, in bringing forward such a motion, which obliged him to request the kind consideration of the House while he addressed to them a few words in support of his proposition. The first fallacy which struck him was the last which fell from the Noble Lord, that it was possible, by merely rescinding the resolutions of 1635, to commence a harsh course of treatment towards Ireland. He simply sought by his motion to main tain the long-established right of property in the Established Church— (Cheers)—and he scarcely thought, notwithstanding what had fallen from the Noble Lord, that the maintenance of the Church was incon. sistent with the mild and paternal government of Ireland, for a desire for which he gave the Noble Lord full credit, whilst he considered that the same feeling actuated many who were opposed to that Noble Lord, and who were anxious that such mild principles should be applied to the government of that country.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had charged him from the very outset with having no better reason for the present motion than an intention to foment political differences, sad to prevent the dispassionate settlement of this question.—(Hear, hear.) He was sure that it was not his intention to foment political differences, and that, so far from preventing the dispassionate settlement of this question, he believed that his proposal was the only mode by which such a settlement could be arrived at.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord seemed to imagine that the course which he (Sir T. D. Acland) was then taking must have been suggested by the distinguished prelate who was his diocesan, but perhaps the Noble Lord's recollection would serve him a little further. If it could, the Noble Lord might recollect the time when the county of Devon lost as its representative one to whom for his talents and personal character there was not only no objection, but for which many of his constituents rightly conceived, and in this opinion he concurred, that they had reason to be proud, but the real reason for whose loss was the resolution which he had successfully carried in that House.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord asked for no benefit of clergy then—(Laughter)—and he tested- the public opinion, which he (Sir T. D. Arland) then shared with many others, and .which was now participated in by a large and increasing portion of the public, and which opinion was unequivocally expressed, that they entertained a great aversion to carry reform in favour of others, so far as to resider insecure the prOperty of the Church, for no property mounted higher in its origin than the property of the Established Church in England and Ireland.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord had asked, for another reason, why he had interposed his motion ; and he would answer the Noble Lord by giving him an example to which he could not object. He (Sir T. D. Acland) believed that in the motion which he should make he was following most strigtlx .the course taken by the Noble Lord. himself when he brought forward his reso. lutions ; and why, what was a good reason when resolutions were forced upon the House was a bad course when those resolutions were to be removed, he had yet to learn.—(Cheers.) He thought also, if be was not much mistaken, that the Noble Lord interposed his resolutions, that he brought them forward as abstract propositions, though on that occasion they were not quite so abstract in their nature as might be supposed, but were practical enough.— (Hear, hear.) He was well aware that various Tithe Bills had been introduced under different Governments, but also by the same Government in successive sessions. He was not, however, stating far from the truth when he said that the Right Hon. Baronet at that time the head of the Government, the Honourable Member for Tamworth, was then engaged in the same office for which the Noble Lord now claimed credit—credit which would be justly due to him if he could only carry out his proposition, by enabling them (the Opposition) to accept the hand of peace which he offered.—'-(Loud cheers.) At that time he was not a Member of the' House, and he could not, therefore, state what the purpose of the Noble Lord was in bringing forward those resolutions; but he knew their effects, and one effect was, to remove from office the Ministry which the Noble Lord opposed--an effect which was entirely distinct from his (Sir T. D. Acland's) present intentions--and to put a stop, not only for that session, to the Tithe Bill itself, but the whole of those Irish measures which had been introduced by the Hon. and Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge) the Secretary for Ireland at that time, and who had made great efforts to accommodate the Bill to the general feeling of that House and of the country. It was true that in the opinion of the House the Bill was bad, because it did not attempt what, before the Noble Lord had broached it, was a proposition of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin ; it was true that, in the opinion of the Noble Lord, the Bill was wanting in something to fill up that deficiency, and that one advantageous something was what would not be acceded to on that (the Opposition) side of the House. If, therefore, he (Sir T. D. Acland) had unwittingly fallen into the discussion of any objects which might give rise to temporary anger, and which, according to the'Noble Lord, had already created an angry debate, it was no fault of his ; and he hoped that the debate would have no more evil in it, than was to be found in the disagreeable quality of the Noble Lord's own speech. —(Loud cheering and laughter.) But with repect to their operation on the property of the Church, he had still more serious ground of charge against the resolutions; and here again he proposed and was Most happy to shelter himself against the Noble Lord's own accusation by the Noble Lord's own reasons, assigned for his own resolutions on their introduction in March and April, 1835. When he asked the House to rescind those resolutions he was naturally anxious to see the argnmcnts and the reasons by which they were supported when adopted by the House ; and lie had not gone far in the Noble Lord's speech when he found what was intended for a justification, the benefit of which the Noble I.ord then claimed entirely for himself, but which he (Sir T. D. Acland) hoped that the Noble Lord would not refuse to extend to him. The Noble Lord might say that his words applied only to the first re solution, but then the first resolution touched only the propel ty of the Church, to which he objected. The Noble Lord had said, "If the House be determined to confine the revenues of the Church to purposes strictly ecclesiastical, it Is better for that determination to be declared; but if the House is not of that opinion, it is certainly of no use for us to be passing through the different stages of the Bills for the commuta tion of Tithes."—(Cheeers from the Opposition.) The Noble Lord continued, " We ought not, in my opinion, to proceed with that Bill while that great question is unsettled—while it is yet unknown whether the Ministers anti the House of Commons agree as to the question, or at variance upon it." Now he, (Sir T. D. Acland) thought that this contained a full justification for the course which he had pursued, and he thought that this consideration which operated with the Noble Lord was, niutatis mutandi.v, a good consideration for him (Sir T. D. Acland) to adopt. He frankly confessed that, in com mon with many others, in common especially with those who were deeply interested in this question, the prelates and dignitaries of the Church, 11.11,0 thought that in the present resolutions of the Noble Lord there lurked his old enemy the appropriation clause, but he con fessed that on a more careful consideration of those resolutions, coupling them also with the speech of the Noble Lord that night, he did not find any direct sense which rendered it impossible s t a t e ment that the Principle O he f the appropri a ti on clause was in ex press terms involved in them—(Cheers) ; for him to enter into a was not sure that it was there at all—(Hear, hear); but he was sure that he was not singular in the feeling that if, by the best ability and casuistry the resolutions had been drawn, there could have been no more effectual mystifica tion of the Noble Lord's inte ntion — (Cheers)—of keeping the House to the last moment in ignorance, whether the Noble Lord would shit:: by or enforce, either now or hereafter, the principle agaii st of them (the opposition) were opposed. He trusted ~.a exonerate him fr om th e c h arg e of haVice b r ought forward this motion with s s view suggested by the No's e Lord, Nod and 9 embarrass the settlement of the question. an d o f having endeavoured t• spread ~,;:nsion through the country, to the Noble Lord's resolutions, and his intention had been, and was, to reverse, if possible, the principle involved in them—(Cheers) —to aseer - pleetea Ain whether the present Fulittmtmt felt on this sweet the same as th e _ _ s last. Ile had often heard of the great inconvenience of resorting to abstract resolutions, when it was not known to what they might lead, and which might open a door through which they could not tell w h at company would afterwards creep in ; and he did not think that the No ble Lord, when he passed these resolutions, and changed the policy of the Government, knew that he was raising against himself a mass of dif ficulties which he fondly thought he hsd allayed. Three years s i nce these resolutions were to contain the sole cure for the evils of the Irish Tithe system, and the Noble Lord declared that the only final and sat is_ factory adjustment was to be foundin the principle of making the pro. party of the Es'ablished Church serve the purposes of the Stale. And during the last three years what progress had been made ? Aluch of the time of the last Parliament had been occupied In fighting this question again and again, and in bringing the two Houses of Parlia ment into inconvenient collision, without any advantage having been derived from their legislative endeavours. Why was this ? The Noble Lord had asked him whether he recollected a resolution which had been passed in that House, and which had not since been acted upon, " that it was expedient that provision should be made by law for the Roman Catholic clergy exercising their religious functions in Ireland ?" He knew why the Noble Lord asked that question. He supported that resolution, but he had not voted money out of one man's pockets to put it into another's. He slid not now repent having voted for that resolu Lion, and he might take the same course to excuse himself as the Noble Lord had done; he had the same right to study the "inelinatio tem pJrunr," but he supported it only as the basis of a Bill to be introduced at that time, but he did not support it as a dictatorial resolution t o re _ main after that time.—(Cheers.) He objected to the appropriation clause; he would resist it wherever he found it, and in whatever place he thought that it lurked he would drag it out ; and whatever the in. tention of the Noble Lord might be, however this principle may be kept out of sight and not show itself, lest it should interfere with the Noble Lord's present possession of power—(Cheers)—however convenient such a course might have been, he was glad that he had drawn from the Noble Lord the distinct and manly acknowledgment; and though he differed from the Noble Lord upon this subject, and dreaded his prin. ciples, when pushed to their furthest extent by those who had not the same discretion and controul over their feelings as the Noble Lord, yet Le was glad that he knew that the Noble Lard thought that the best mode of governing Ireland was to rob the Established Church of a cer tain portion of her property, which he was pleased now to call surplus-L. (Cheers)—but which others might handle less delicately hereafter ; and that the Irish people now knew that thesis was some one who would put his hand into the pockets of the Church for them, and who told them t hat the opposite policy was reviving the harshest mode of government._ (Cheers.) His first object, then, was to ascertain whether the opinion of this Parliament was really the same as the last, that any surplus revenues of the Church should be applied to the moral and religious education of the people, without distinction of sect or religious persuasion—(Ministe rial cheers)—after providing for the increase in the number of members of the Established Church.—(Renewed cheers) He regretted that too many difficulties had been thro en in the way of education in Ire. land; but he had nevertheless thought it right to bring forward his motion, and he did it simply on the ground that it was unfair to appropriate the property of the Church. The main object of these resolutions was to connect, as far as two things could be connected by mere words, this appropriation principle with the settlement of the ques tion relating to the collisions for tithes, which all urged as a grievance which really affected the mind of the Irish peasant. But it was one thing to regulate the method of the collection of the revenues of the Church, and to which those who paid objected; in that object he was fully willing to go along with the Noble Lord—he was quite willing to redress every practical grievance —he had never been in Parliament when the question was agitated, but he was not prejudiced on the sub ject of Municipal Corporations ; he was willing fairly to enter upon the consideration of any measure to relieve any practical grievance, or to remove any inconvenience which might be felt in that country; but he was not willing to sacrifice other interests, and he would not attack those institutions which slid not injure the people, and to which the feel ings of the people were not opposed till they were taught otherwise. When he reduced his rent to his tenants he understood the practical grievance which induced them to ask for a reduction ; but when the money, whatever was its amount, once got into his coffers, what did it signify to his tenant in what manner heshould apply it ? He called then, without hesitation, upon the House to rescind the resolutions which bound it. And here he had an advantage over the Noble Lord which he did not otherwise possess, for it was somewhat curious that of the quarters in the house from which a preposition should come to fetter the freedom of discussion, it should be from the Noble Lord. New, all he asked was to relieve the House from this fetter upon the free right of discussion and determination. The shackle had been felt for three years, and the sole reason why the Tithe question had not been settled long since, was the difficulty placed on the House by the resolution, without the incorporation of which it was declared that no proposition would be maintained. The expression was more stringent : it said that " no measure upon the subject of Tithes in Ireland could lead to a satis factory and final adjustment which did not embody" the Noble Lord's appropriation principle, and if this were not a limitation of the free dom of debate, at least it was a limitation of the freedom of ac tion —(Renewed cheers.) Ministers were acting on one plan, but would the country not find the great difference there was between what they said and what they did ? They were ashamed to acknowledge that they kept up this principle only for party purposes, and that they no longer acted up to the spirit of their own resolutions.—(Hear.) Were they less ashamed of avowing than of acting upon them ? The Noble Lord's present resolutions he did not impugn; he saw no in vincible reason way a good measure might not come out of them, always excepting the appropriation principle : to that principle the Noble Lord adhered, and though he saw no means of governing Ireland unless that was maintained, yet he did not now think that it would make that final and conclusive settlement to which he had accustomed the country to look for the last few years. Be that, however, as it might, the Noble Lord had a full right, in dealing with Ireland, to take the frank and manly course of postponing a plan which checked the carrying of measures of value. He (Sir T. D. Acland) did not complain of this ; he rather praised the Noble Lord for laying aside the pride and tenacity of party.—(Hear, hear.) The eourse which he (Sir T. D. Acland) pro posed was clear ; he was for a clear stage and no favour, and he did not wish to leave that which might be used in future legislation, by the Noble Lord or any other Member, to the grert disadvantage of those who differed from him in opinion.---(Cheers.) He would conclude by moving that " the resolutions which had been read should be re scinded."—(Cheers.) [We believe that the above is a tolerably ac curate report of the Hon. Baronet's observations, but he was fre quently so indistinct as to render it extremely difficult to catch the pur port of his remarks]. Several Hon. Members rose together ; but Sir J. E. WILMOT was called upon by the Speaker. He said that he had the greatest satisfaction in seconding the proposition of the Ho nourable Bat onet who had just sat down, and he must say that he was of opinion most sincerely that the object which the Honourable Baronet had in view was one which would be most useful to the Government and the country at large, for its effect would be to rescind the resolutions passed in 1835, which were calculated to destroy the peaet"of the coun try, and which operated as a mill-stone round the neck, not only of the Government itself, but of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) They had seen the necessity of some good judgment being employed on the subject of the Church Establishment and the wan t of education, and they had heard from the Noble Lord two years ago, and heard now, that the re solutions which had been proposed were intended to remedy the evil s which existed, and, besides, to improve the condition of the Esta blished Church in other respects. He did not think then, and he thought now, that those resolutions were contrary to every principle of justice that any of the funds of the Church should be taken from itself, and that they should be given to those who were its enemies —(llear, and loud cheers.) Therefore the motion of the Honourable Baronet was one which was reasonable in itself, and one which he was bound to sJpport. It might appear an anomaly to see him stand there to support a resolution such as that proposed by the Honourable Baronet, when it was considered that he had hitherto kept aloof from all party shackles, and from doing or saying anything which might com promise his independence; but he begged leave to tell the Noble Lord that he did not stand there on the recommendation of his diocesan, nor to excite any angry debate, nor to defend himself from any reports or statements which might be circulated in respect of him, nor did he de sire to defend himself from a union of Honourable Gentlemen who differed in opinion with him—an impression which he thought came from the Noble Lord with a very b grace.—(Hear, hear.) He had made no close alliance with any party on this subject who had indulged in the use of vituperative language—(Hear)—which, however violent it might be, could have no ill effect on the Conservatives. He knew well that the word Conservative was not at all agreeable to the Noble Lord hear)—because he knew that he and other lion. and Right Hon. Gentlemen had always endeavoured, when any question was proposed on which that party was likely to succeed, to confound Toryism with Conservatism.—(A laugh.) But there was no man in his senses who saw the difference between Whiggism and Radicalism who must not also sec the difference between Toryism and Conserva tism—in fact, there was the greatest possible differences. A Conner votive was a man who had left Toryism, and who desired to preserve a constitutional and a rational Reform ; and a Radical was a man who had adopted a particular line of proceeding with a view to obtaining everything which was irrational and unconstitutional.—(Hear, hear.) It was on these grounds that he stood, and on these he would stand or fall---(Hear, hear) --alike whether it was in I GSB that he joined in throwing a Catholic Monarch from the throne, or whether it was in 1838 that he stood forward to rescue the Crown from Catholic supre. macy.—( Hear, hear.) _ _ . • Sir CHARLES LEMON had always joined with those Hononourable Members who had ♦oted in favour of the appropriation clause, and should consider that he was bound to pursue the same line of conduct ; but the question now was, whether they should have that as law which had passed into oblivion—(Oh, oh, from the Opposition) —and whether the system which had before been advocated should be re vived in order that the proposition for its adoption might be once more negatived. With all that had fallen from the Hon. Baronet opposite, the mover of the resolution, he fully concurred; bnt he saw no reason why the Honourable Baronet should not also agree with him that, as this measure met with his approbation, he should not turn round and look only to that which had passed.—(Hear, hear.) He was under the necessity of voting in opposition to the resolution of the Honourable Baronet. Mr. COLQUHOUN was fully impressed with the importance of the subject, and would contend that the attention of the House was be spoke by the fact of the appropriation clause having never been intro. duced into any of the measui es hitherto brought forward by the Go vernment. He would ask, then, was it not worth while for the House to lookback, and to rescind those resolutions which had passed in favour of a plan which had never been adopted ?—(Hear, hear.) It was re markable that the Noble Lord, who now stated it to be of no import ance, had told the House in 1831 th a t no pl an cou ld b e f i nal an d satis factory which did not contain an a pp ro p r i a ti on c l ause. Would the House allow him to call their a tt en ti on t o th e con fi rmat i o n of this principle since that year ? It was ve r y we ll f or H on. G en tl e men to say it was of no importance, but be wo u ld ca ll t h e i r attent i on to the real state of the Irish Church, and he would point out the object of the leading supporters of the Church of Ireland, who were referred to by the Govern ment for the purpose of procuring a settlement of the question. The Mon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary, who were the most important individual: in the representation of the popular party in Ireland, had told them that taking off forty per cent. would not secure peace. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had said that he supported the mea sure already brought forward, not as giving the Irish all they wanted, but as giving them part ; and he had again said in 1834, that he de manded three-fifths only because he expected that he must get the re mainder at some future time. He would point out a more important statement to show the real object of the two Honourable and Learned Members to whom he referred. In January, 1836, the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin said that the Government had the duties of seven centuries to perform, not the least part of which was to secure the abolition of a system by which seven millions of peopla were compelled to pay for the support of the Clergy to whose doctrines they ware opposed.—(Hear, hear.) It was clear, then, that his object was not the reduction only of the fillies or the appropriation o f a part only, bat he was striving to secure the complete removal and extirpa tion of the system.—(Hear.) For his own part, if it could be shown that the ap,,ropriation clause had the slightest tendency to produce peace in Ireland, he would consent to its standing in any measure which might be brooght forward ; but if he could satisfy every candid man that the plan proposed by the Government in 1635 had no tendency to pro duce that most desirable effect, but that, on the contrary, it would lead to the wide dissemination of discoid, he was sure the House would not consent to adopt the advice which had been given to them by the Noble Lord The Hon. and Learned Member, to whose speeches and writings he had already referred, had again, in stating his views and opinions in reference to this subject, said that no man should be com pelled to pay for the support of a Church, of which he was not a mem. her, and, therefore, that no settlement of the question of tithq , ! CQUIti be arrived at which was likely to givO gottd a gthot to ilia peOplo of Ireland which was not founded on the principle of the total extinction of tithes in that country. Now, if these principles wero to be 44;1d upen, the effect of which would be nothing less than the fMeillilatiml of the Protestant Phi4TO In Ireland. 4 4 , htifil wa§ to be no peace, 6 0 11 14T9n§i °11 4 044 0 11 ; 0 ien as the i4W regl4i!led tjiat one WON THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY 15, 1838. was to be paid by the Cathblic to the Protestant clergyman, or in any way which would go to support the Protestant Church. The Right Honourable Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, in 1835, said that the plan proposed by his Noble Friend did not go to the abolition of Protestantism in Ireland, and he contended that it was the object of the House of Commons to support the Esta blishment there; and the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland said that ' the Government hoped to maintain the existence of the Established Church, and denied that any violence was intended to it. Now, on the one hand, there was the statement of the Hon. and Learned Mem ber, on whom the Government relied, that nothing but the extinction of the tithe system would satisfy the people; and, on the other hand, it was said that the object of the measure which was brought forward was to support and to secure the position of the Church.—(Hear, hear.) Could there be any policy more inapplicable to the condition of Ireland than that which had been adopted, or which was likely to produce more dims trous results? If they desired to act on the principle laid down by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and which it was said was alone calculated to produce peace, and a satisfactory settlement of the question, then let them introduce the popular measure, the effect of which would be to sweep away the Protestant Church ; but if they were to adopt the measure of the Noble Lord, they must admit, on the statement of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, that it would not produce that Iran quillity which was desired. In 1834 a proposition was made by the Disseuters that in place of the Church-rate another plan should be adopted to secure the property of the Church. At first the Noble Lord was strongly opposed to the measure, but at length in 1836, he was found to have taken quite a new view of the question; and since that time, in the autumn of the same year, there was a great agitation among the Dissenters, and a demand was made in February, 1837, that there should be taken out of the property of the Church, the aunt which they had formerly declared public property. The demand was acceded to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who introduced his Church-rate plan, and since that time discussion after discussion had taken place on the subject of the same principle, and it was on this that the appropria. Lion of the property of the Church to purposes which did not belong to it was proposed. He would, therefore, implore the House, believing this principle to be unsafe as it was suggested to the Church, to retrace their steps, and to expunge frets the records of Parliament the opinion whirls they had already expressed in the year 1835.—( Hear, hear.) Lord LEVESON was not sufficiently versed in Parliamentary customs or proeecdings to be able to give an opinion which would carry much weight; but he could not but express his dissatisfaction at a custom which existed of quoting the expressions used by Hon. Members in former debates in reference to subjects at the time being under dis cussion, and he thought that this mode of proceeding was one which was likely to give rise to much inconvenience, as the system might as well be carried back to the debates which had occurred in the reign of William 111., or in the Long Parliament itself, as to more recent periods. No one could doubt the truth of the declaration of the Honourable Baronet, that in making the present motion his only object was to procure the settlement of the question ; but he must say that no one could conceive a motion better devised to pot a stop to all settlement of the question than that which he had brought for ward.—(Hear, hear.) He must also in turn believe him that he acted with no intention whatever to turn out the present Ministry ; but, al though he placed confidence in this statement, he did not quite be lieve that it was the general feeling with some of the party to which he belonged, and th ere were some of them, no doubt, who deemed it a question on which it was desirable to procure as many as possible to vote in their favour, without considering whether it was worth while buying the triumph at such a price as the putting a stop to all settle ment of the question, and as the danger which would be the necessary consequence of any delay in some decisive plan being devised and adopted. It was these reasons in particular which caused him to object to the motion, and he said so, himself being a well-wisher to the Esta blished Church. The Hon. Baronet opposite had talked about the money being taken out of one man's pocket and being given to another man, but what had been said of the revenues of the Churches during many centuries ? Were not the means of the Church originally intended for specific purposes—for the , celebration of masses, and for the assistance of the poor; and were they nat afterwards taken from them and appropriated to various purposes, as de scribed by Mr. Justice Blackstone, namely, for the endow ment of Churches, for the support of the poor, for keeping up churches, and for the support of incumbents. But had not these even, by custom or other means, become gradually taken away from these purposes, and in Ireland had not various grants of the funds of the Church Establishment been made for lay purposes, and might they not now, if there should appear to be any surplus, appropriate that surplus to the purposes of general education, which would be even paving the way for the conversion of the people to the doctrines of the Established Church ?—(Hear, hear.) Thare was, besides, another argument which, as an upholder and supporter of the Church, he was prepared to advance —the anomalous situation in which the Church was at present l placed, and h os til e as t h e peop l e were t o i t, h e pu t it t o those ableHonour emobferes, who really , wished for its welfare, whether it was not better to put the people in a po s iti on by w hi c h its welfare might b e secure d , b y advancing them in their mora l con diti on , by g i v i ng th em th e ad vantages than to leave them untaught, merely for the purpos e of securing untouched the means of the_Church 2--(Hear.) Colonel CONOLLY was of opinion that the Hon. Baronet had se. lected the most appropriate occasion for bringing forward the present question, and that his motives were in effect to clear away the rubbish and the remains of opposition by 'which the consideration of the tithe question was encumbered, and to remove from the House the fetters which were on it, and which had been placed on it by another Parlia ment, but to which it should not be liable, but which it should have taken the earliest steps to remove. He was sorry to see that the Noble Lord had taken the course which he had pursued in speaking of the Es. tablished Church in Ireland, for the observations which he had made, in referring to it, were little deserved at his hands—(Hear, hear)--and he was bound to contradict the assertion which he had made, and to say that at no time had any Church, in any country, been in more need of some improved regulation than the Protestant Church now in Ireland. He was confirmed in this statement by the high authority of Dr. Chalmers within the last mouth, and by the no less respectable authority of the Presbyterian minister, Dr. Cooke. He trusted that they would that night get rid of the appropriation question, as it kept the country in a state of agitation—it deprived the ministers of the Church of their in. comes, and, indeed, of their means of existence, and it had been the means of rendering property insecure in Ireland. As, therefore, the object of the motion of the Hon. Baronet was to get rid of this origin of evil, he should take the opportunity of thanking the Hon. Baronet for having made his motion. Mr. SLANEY, as he had never voted before en this question, as he had not a seat in the last Parliament, felt called upon to state the reasons that would that night influence his vote on the proposition of the Hon. Baronet. He must, in giving an opinion on the subject, look to the ani mus which had dictated the resolution. He had no doubt but that the lion. Baronet had brought forward the proposition in that single.minded. ness which characterised him, but he was sure that some evil genius must have dictated this course to the Iron. Member.—(Hear.) If he had been called upon to select a man on any side of the House who was more likely than another to sow peace and to stop dissension, and to pursue a course of conduct likely to get rid of angry feelings and animosities, he should have named the Hon. Baronet as that person ; could he then be l'' a i n r d . S w ia h n e e n Y s ) uch concession had been n u d e as was otherwise than strip ised that the I t l h o o n n . g ß h a t r h o e ne s t aw shal e d d l a ra w v n e a p n r d o g p le d this . ttle t jn motion, of c 0 n w c h tl e ta n t in he n ,( likely to lead to the settlement of this great question, which professedly by h y a o l 1 . -- e ( o I f I ctahre, greatest men d o:thisat had in ever conformity lived wwithas s t oh adviceeln uc l t, tendered in this or any other country—he meant the Duke of W e lli ngton, and which advice had been follow ed b y her Ma j est y' s Ministers, who had that night brought forward a p ro p osition which was li kely to lead to the settlement of the question. H e re p eated, then, th at he deeply regretted desired that the Honourable B aronet should have made this motion, although th e slightest doubt but that he was actuated by the pur es t he n t h v ad not motives. He regarded with unfeigned sorrow that the Honourable Baronet should have rejected the olive-branch held out to him, and ap„ p ea r determined to oppose — for such would be the result of this motion un til an indefinite period the determination of this matter, Th e proposition of the Honourable Baronet was to rescind the vote of a former House of Commons. He (Mr. Slaney) felt bound to say, and he did so with unfeigned respect to the Honourable Baronet, that the object of those who supported this motion was not so much to get rid of the appropriation principle as to work out a course to gain the seats now oc. cupied by his Noble and Right Hon. Friends connnected with the Ad_ Administration. Believing, however, as he did, that her Majesty's Government were pursuing that course which tended to promote the best interests of the empire, and that, notwithstanding all the difficul ti.cs which had occurred around them, they had conciliated the feelings of the people towards them both in this country and in Ireland, he felt hound to oppose the motion of his Hou. Friend.—(Hear.) At the same time, however, he gave no opinion one way or the other on the appro priation clause --(Laughter from the Opposition Benches)—but he was satisfied the present motion was nothing more nor less than an attempt made by one party to turn out the oth er. — (Cheers.) He had not changed sides—(Renewed cheers and laughter) —he did not say a word against those who had done so; but he saw sometimes with surprise that some of those leaders with whom it had been his lot to fight the battles of liberty in that House, as an unpaid soldier, had changed sides, and appeared most bitter in their opposition to their former friends Anti colleagues.—(Cheers.) Mr. R. M. MILNES congratulated the House on the light which had at length fallen upon them with reference to this subject : he also begged to congratulate her Majesty's Ministers on the feeling of ne. cessity which they had come to abandon the appropriation principle. With respect to the present motion, no one on the opposite side that dared to impute improper motives to the Hon. Baronet; but it had been asked by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury what was the animus with which this proposition had been brought forward; but he (Mr. Milnes), in reply, would ask what was the animus of Honourable Gentlemen opposite in 1831 s, when they brought forward their resolu_ tions in favour of appropriation ?—(Cheers.) Had the assertion of the principle o f appropriation in 1835 b een productive of any beneficial results in this country or in Ireland ?—(Hear.) Had that principle been adopted or acted upon in any law, or had Henourable Gentlemen opposite secured the confidence of the people by persisting in adopting trythes,e. ff r , es t e o a l u h t i y o n h s tt ? , — , t n ( g H n ea G r , n h , e e a r t r t , m a e n n d a t w l augh deplorably. ) w Feeling eak thata:t that te whicheotin. it ~. h was h the, if f t gm which, gdorneaetveignnaproirnestbolnwha,vwennprldesitdhirnngworthereietsyndpeisrteintinetso, c i p ae W. r , . hear,s being o the i and Eßo vn l l a , i L i y one laughter.) E t e on r . ) w sir i e l J v a n abyss of di sgrace, h e should not regret the adoption of a motion like the present o ne, if i t should have the effect of driving th em from office. ( hada h l : e v i l always considered settlement of a p t p h r e op r tithei at i ci o n n e r: t r t i o n n . could take place, and as the only one which could carry with it the feel. ings and c on fi dence of the Irish people.—(Hear, hear.) Honourable Gentleme n opposite seemed to forget that they had to conciliate the feel_ s i r i e g n s d rugs of six milli ons of people with reference to a Church which be . l r. ged t ° only 600,000.—(H ear. ) Wh at was the common state of tn p i i n t h l r r o e u l Ireland? t T t h h e e y c s o a u w . , t o r y, n the ma one ny of hand,the them fi Protestantne edifices, t l ithe ministers, if not supported in luxury, at any rate well paid by the imp_ coutributions. The poorest people, independent of ha v i ng sition of thi s tax on the people ; and, on the other, they saw a building little better i n appearance than a common cottage, with mud walls and a thatch e d roof, with hundreds of people on the Sundays round its doors, cr owding to get admission. The former was the Church for the few, and s upported by the tithes, and the latter was the Church of the bulk of voluntary the population, supported, with its ministers, by their to contribut e to the support of their own Church, had to give a portion of thei r scanty maintenance towards paying for this riehly sen d owed Church, the form of worship in which was alien to their feelings.— (Hear, hear.) Was it a system which should be allowed to be conti nued the penal laws, or the le g i s lating with a view of promoting the nu" I— (Hear, hear.) He would ask what other remedy was ther e th an a pp l ying the f un d s of this rich C h urc h f or th e b ene fit o f the poor ? ( "ear, hear, f rom t h e Ministeral b enc h es, answere d b y c h eers from the Oppositio n.) This proposition, however, was nothing of this ki n d . He did n ot wish to apply this property towards the maintenance of the reli gion of th e great body of the peop l e, b ut h e on l y requ i red that the cru mbs which tell f rom the rich man ' s t a bl e s h ou ld b e d evote d to the ge neral educatio n o f the country. U nt il t h e se ttl emen t o f t hi s question, tran quillity of the coun t ry, wou ld b e va in and illusory ; an d un til th is question was put at rest, the great and constant source of dis cord in Ireland would continue.—(Hear, and loud cheering.) Un less the Legislature nationalized this tax—unless they gavo the Irish people something for the payment of this tax—it would be vain to expect that they would continue to pay it.—(Hoar, hear.) The Irish people would no longer submit to this state of thie,ga—tHear, hear .) They w ou ld not thus submit to be buffeted about between one party and anoth er — ( Cheers)—they will ;le longer permit the settlement oh t his question, upon which their happiness depended, beie,i, r i iale e Pe g to 4114 pasty factions on.—(Loud cheea ) ';''hey felt that they hadbeen bandied about from :-„c lido the house to the other ; and the L eg i s l ature People 4 :WU thOy were reg a rd e d as h av i ng an i n t eres t hi t the stl bj ee t . — 4 1 4 44, hvitr.) When his Hon. an d Learned Nona the Member for D Dublin agitated the r : , ... -- zingland must oome forward and sho7 the repeal of the Union he (hit' , W. Somerville) opposed him, hcranse he .thought that the interests of -Ireland would be belt ettrttil-ilted br i;rometing g real l - and equal, and ninaileiik Wilke!/ . ker • with this country.—(llear, hear, hear.) But when he heard Ho nourable Members opposite talk of the present state ofthings I being anything like an equal or real union he could not express ,er his surprise it was such a union as that between a step-motide. . and child, and the advantages of the union were all on one If his Hon. Friend s hould once agitate the question, and he would side. If say what course he should pursue, because he believed that it was best for Ireland that a real union should be established between the two countries, the result might be the subject of the deepest regret; for there was a strong feeling growing up in that country that without a domestic Legislature Ireland could never have peace nor tranquillity, nor that those measures essential for her welfare would ever become the law of the land. Mr. LEFROY supported the amendment. 'The Hon. Baronet op posite suggested that the maintenance of the Union required that the resolutions should be abided by; but it seemed to him (Mr. Lefroy) that this was rather an Irish mode of maintaining an Union, one of the chief articles of which stipulated for the preservation of the rights and pro. perty of the Irish Church. These resolutions were originally intro.. ducat to the House on mere speculation, on the mere possibility of a surplus being established, at a time when the House had not before it any sort of means of judging of the state of the property of the Irish Church, and before the Commissioners of instruction had made their report. (Hear, hear.) Under such circum stances it was not greatly to be wondered at that the Noble Lord had made some egregious mistakes in his statements respecting the property of the Irish Church.—(Hear, hear.) Some glaring discrepancies had occurred, too, in the statements of the Noble Lord as compared with those made by the Noble Secretary for Ireland. The Noble Lord stated the revenues of the Irish ChUrch at 701,721/., while the Noble Secretary for Ireland informed the House that the whole property ap, plicable to the maintenance of the establishment was 613,3001. per annum ; and deducting from this gross amount 30 per cent., which was proposed to be taken from the Irish clergy, not more than 400,0001. per annum, exhibiting an immense discrepancy between the two esti. mates. Another great mistake was at the same time made by the Noble Lord in his statement as to the Protestant population of Ireland, which the Noble Lord laid at 750,000 ; whereas it appeared from the report of the Commissioners that the number of persons attached to the Esta. blished Church in Ireland was not less than 852,650. The entire ig norance of the whole subject thus displayed by the persons who intro duced these resolutiong to the House was a sufficient ground in itself for rescinding these resolutions. For three years past the Noble Lord had repeatedly expressed his anxiety to settle this question; let no false pride now prevent the Noble Lord from consenting to for ward that settlement, by abandoning the resolutions which it was moat justly sought to rescind ; but let an honest pride dictate to that Noble Lord to secure the peace of Ireland and the safety of its Church, by re linquishing this fatal principle; if the Noble Lard really wished to ar rive at a final settlement of the question, he could not refuse this conces. sion to the call of justice and reason.--(Hear, hear.) Let it be re. membered that these resolutions were not the original proposition cl f the Noble Lord; that, in reality, he was not entitled either to the credit or discredit of them, for they originally emanated from, and were, indeed, moved and supported by, Members of that House who were the avowed enemies of the Protestant Cuurch In Ireland. Mr. FRENCH, as one attached to the Protestant Church by educa tion, by connection, and by close domestic relations, trusted that the highly conciliatory proposition now made by her Majesty's Minis. tern, would not experience opposition from those who put themselves forward as more especielly the friends of the clergy; that they would not reject a settlement more advantageous to that body than any which could be offered them, even by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, if in power —a settlement which would be received with entire satisfaction by the pee_ ple of Ireland. For years past the Right Hon. Baronet opposite and his party had appeared anxious for any settlement of thetithe question which did not involve the abstract principle of appropriation Would they now take upon themselves the responsibility of rejecting one in which that question was not involved?—(Hear, hear.) The principal feature of the present plan, as distinguished from some former ones, was the ab sence of what had been termed the appropriation principle, the resolu. t.on declaratory of which Hon. Gentlemen opposite were so anxious to rescind, although their rescinding it would not effect their object, as the principle would still remain on the statuteebeok.—(Hear, hear.) Without referring to the Acts of the reign of Henry VIII, he would call the attention of the House to an Act so far back as the 15th Richard IL, cap. 6, which was called even at that period " the Appropriation Act," and which appropriated to secular purposes a portion of the in comes of the clergy —a statute made when the Church was almost om nipotent, and when a Bishop of Winchester was Chenoellor of Eng land--(Hear, hear.) Ho was prepared to show that the ecclesias, tical laws themselves had recognised the principle of appropriation, and that Parliament had enforced it. The clergy of the Established Church in Ireland had lost much of their authority. Instead of being ministers of peace, they were too often ministers of strife; and how could it be otherwise when they had to collect their revenues in a field of conten tion ? As long as the present system lasted, to contention was the Church of Ireland wedded " as" to use the words of Milton, "with a spousal ring." Would the clergy object to receive their incomes for a season through the medium of the consolidated fund ? They already vainly attempted to obtain them through the courts of law. Surely a treasury warrant for the amount was a better gua. rantee for its payment than a writ of rebellion, the last weapon In the armoury of the law, which had become rusty in the courts until It was furbished up and sharpened for the service of the ministers of peace.—(Cheers.) Let not the House imagine that the insecurity of Tithe property had been confined to Ireland. In tide coun try, in the reign of Henry IV., the Commons went in a body to the King, and addressed him by their Speaker in the 1131, lowing words That the clergy possessed a third part of the riches of the realm, and not doing the Xing any personal service, it was but just they should contribute out of their revenues towards the pressing necessities of the State; that it was evident the rielies of the ecclesiastics made them negligent of their duty, and the lesseNieti of their excessive incomes would be a double advantage to Church and State," Sir John Oldcastle, afterwards Lord Cobham, brought in a Bill to effectuate the object of this address four years afterwards this question was renewed more warmly at the Parliament held at Leicester, and would have been carried, only for the policy of Henry Chichely, then Archbishop of Canterbury. During the Commonwealth, in 1652, the question of Tithes was debated, and it was referred to a Committee to consider how a convenient and competent maintenance foe the Clergy might be settled in lieu of tithes. The ProPose4 ;treasure was certainly more advantageous to the Church than the measurc l brought forward by the Right Honettrable Baronet the Nitanber for Launceston, or that of the Noble Lord the ;llember for Lancashire. In Sir Henry Hardinge's projected Dili of 1835 then clergyman was to receive 751. for every 1001. of tithe composition ; in the present measure he was to receive 701. ; in both the tithe was pro posed to be redeemed.: In Sir H. Hardinge's bill 1,5001, was fixed as the sum to be obtained by the Church for every lOW. of tithe composi tion which might be redeemed. By the present measure 1,6001. would be paid for every 100/. by the State. Both projects were alike in that the redemption money was to be invested in land or otherwise for the benefit of the Church. It also agreed with the amended Bill pro posed by the Noble Lord opposite in 1836 in its principal features. The clergy under that measure were to recover 72/. los. for every 1001. ; but the Noble Lord calculated the redemption, taking the maximum which might be expected to be obtained, at twenty years' purchase of the rent.charge, which would only amount to 1,4501. for each 1001. of tithe composition ; whereas, as he before stated, the clergy were now to be paid 1,600/. by the State. In conformity with his Lordship's plan the present one left the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to carry the investment into effect ; but the present plan posf..ssed the great superiority over both, that it secured to "lie incum. bent the full amount of the rentseharge, which 'Tee to be paid to him by the state. The Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire had always a dvocated the eetnlnutation of en:positions into rent.char ges ; their redemption and investment for the benefit of the Church : all of whiols were provided for by these resolutions. The appropriation of Church property to othor than Church purposes was not contained in them. He should therefore consider they might fairly anticipate his support. (The Honourable Member here read an extract from the speech ,of the Noble Lord in 1835, expressing the opinions he had attributed to him.)lie would entreat them to adopt a measure which would put an end to a long and fatal struggle, in which the honour due to religion, and the revenues that ought to be paid to its Ministers, had been equally impaired. Lord STANLEY said—l should hardly have risen so early in the debate, if the Honourable Gentleman who has just sat down had not personally called on me; if he had not expressed it as his thorough conviction, that, looking at the course I have pursued on former occasions, looking at the sentiments which I have expressed, and at the part which I have taken ; looking at the desire I have always indicated, and which I still feel for a settlement of this perplexing question of the revenues of the Church of Ire land on a safe, reasonable, and satisfactory basis, he might confidently rely on my vote in favour of the resolutions now moved by her Majesty's Government. Even if I were disposed to accede to those resolutions ; even if I am—as I certainly am—disposed to consider them in the spirit of candour, of fairness, and moderation; even if I am disposed to discuss them with a desire to eome to A settlement--to discuss them with a view not to force extreme opinions, or to press untenable points—the more I arm disposed to come to such a discussion, the more I am convinced—and Yet more and more from every speech I have heard in the course of this night's debate—of the expediency, of the duty, of the necessity of ac ceding to the motion of my Hon, Friend the Member for North Devon shire.—(Opposition cheers,) For the motion of ray Hon. Friend is not, as it has been represented, a peg to hang a factious vote upon—(Cries of " Oh," from the Ministerial benches)—it is not an amendment—(The cries of " Oh" continued, and answered by loud Opposition cheers)—it is not an attempt to impede and to postpone for a year—nay, hardly for a night—the discussion of the resolutions gf her Majesty's Ministers.— (Hear.) If we had been disposed on this side of the House to take that course, we should not have given you this evening the fatigue and the weariness of listening to a protracted discussion, because in that case we should naturally have moved the proposition of my Hon. Friend in Com mittee as en amendment, and as a substitute for the resolutions of the Noble Lord : but it is because we have desired to avoid the possible imputation of endeavouring to substitute my Hon. Friend's motion for the resolutions of tlle Noble Lord, that we have taken this course, not of moving an amendment to the resolutions, but of bringing forward a proposition which was considered essential as a preliminary to an un_ derstanding on what terms and on what principles it is we are to act,— (Cheers.) And I confess I am at this moment as much in the dark with regard to the terms on which the question of appropriation stands in the view of the Honourable Gentlemen on the other side of the House, as I believe they are in a state of difllirence among them selves in what sense it shall be understood,—(Cheers,) I regret to observe that I believe, and I am compelled to believe, that the resolutions of the Noble Lord opposite have been carefully and artfully so flamed as to enable him to say to the one party, "See, I maintain your principle of appropriation," while to the other party he cam say, "You are raising a factious opposition to a motion and to a resolution.—(The conclusion of the sentence was lost in the cheers which burst from the opposition.) The Noble Lord in the course of his speech spoke with considerable bitterness as to the part taken by the Protestant clergy of Ireland on this occasion, and taunted them with having considered that 15 per cent, alone was the price at which the peace of Ireland was to be purchased. Why, Was that a candid and fair way of stating the case P—(Cheers.) When the clergy of Ireland say, " We submit to a deduction from our incomes which the law awards us, and which we have an undoubted right tet receive; we submit to a deduction of 15 per cent, from that which we are entitled by law to receive"—is it fair in the Noble Lord to de_ clare that those clergy are so factious, are so grasping, are so insatiable, that 15 per cent. sacrifice of their income is the price at which they put the peace of Ireland ?—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord tells you that by the law as it at present exists every landlord of Ireland has a right to demand a deduction of 15 per cent., but surely the Noble Lord must know that such is not the law. Surely the Noble Lord must know that the power to which he alludes was limited in the first instance, by an Act which I had the honour of introducing, to one single year, that It was prolonged in the following Session for a period which has very long expired, and that this is the posit:on in which the clergy and the land. lords of Ireland stand at the present moment—by the lapse of time every landlord is gradually becoming liable to the wiyment, not of 70, but of 100 per cent --,(llear.) When Hon, (gentlemen tell us that we will not snake these deductions, having fox their object the relief of th.Z unhappy and destitute peasantry of Ireland, I reply that we are ready to impose any reasonable de.,iuction on the clergy. But the Noble Lord says that t he most kinfleir course is takers by the clergy o f Ireland—that they are he persons who are now interposing, and that they do so merely from a grasping determination not to K\citsce the last farthing that they can retain in their possession s , 'Ste Noble Lord has to-aight exhibited, I must say, very real Ingenuity ; for he nag spoken on the question of kppre,mtation for nearly two 'flours, and, at the end of speech, IdetY any Honour Clltieman in the House to ;ectermine whether, in the mind the Noble Lord, the princi4;,le Of appropriation was or not abandoned. The Honourr'„,-te Baronet, who spoke with gre.,t force and earnestness on tie Same side, gave you in the Course of his speech, a descriptiZm of the wretched mode in which the Roman Catholic chapels have been crowded by persona who could not find no eunimodation in them, and asked if those pereons were to be com pelled to pay tithes of the 104 Protestant Church. What said the Honourable Baronet ;I Why the legitimate concioston from his ohm- V ition is this, that the poor Church being the majority ought to be the c rich Church—(No, no, from Sir W. Somerville);—that because th e rich Church is in th e mi nor ity, you ought to transfer from the Chu • a of the minority to the Church of the majority—(Renewed cries of No, no, from Sir W. Somerville, answered by cries of Yes, yes, from the Opposition.) If Honourable Gentlemen will be patient, and will allow me, I think T can s' ow that the legitimate construction to be put on what thellon. Baronet said is, ycu should take the property front the Proestant Church, and snake it the property of the Caltmlig Church of !Ireland —(No, nu.) The Honourable Baronet Says, ha asked fur no such thing. " What we do ask for," says the Hen, Baronet, " is this, that we should have the crumbs that fall from th 4 rich man's taste; that we should have applied to the purposes of tile . Roman Catholics the surplus beyond what is wanted far the sol L t utt i wants of the Protestants of Ireland . " Th at is the tleillaw.: made by the Hon. Baronet opposite, and, be it observed, after hearing the speecht and after hearing the resolutions of th e N oble Lord. My Hon. Frlets'i on the opposite side who has just sa t d own has broadly and tee'inetly n declared that there is no principle of appropriation wllatare r i n the ree solutions of the Noble Lord which ars. that the resolution of 1835 was not in W o w L e f (o . 7, ih:e House. He S attempted to be carr!ed isaga nto effect. The Noble Lord hi m s e lf will hardly contend that it is. TN resolution which Was passed in 1:,35 declared, that any surplus beyonl, that which . *wa s requirea for the wants of the Protestant Church elould he devoted tO the purposes ofeducation, without any reference to the re ligloes persuasion of those who ware to he educated. A further resolu. tion of the Noble Lord affirmed, that no plan could be Cited nor satisfac. tory for the ssttlemeitt of the Tithe question, which did not embody that resolution. These were the resolutions wit:eh the Noble Lord prepared h e 1535. Now, the more that the Noble Lord proves that in his preserstreso. lutions there is no principle of appropriation of the surplus, the more necessary is it that the resolution of my Hoe. Friend the Hose Baronet be agreed to—(Cheers)--and the resolutisn rescinded e.hieit denies the possibility of a settlement of the tithe question without embodying in it the appropriation principle.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord and the lion. Gentlemen opposite are placed in this dilemma, and I defy ths etn to get out of it. Either the resolutions now proposed include tae, jectionable principle of applying to secular purposes the revesiu'es of the Church, or they do not. If they do, then it is a primeeep. , e which the Noble Lord is perfectly aware that Gentlemen sitting sin's' this side of the House never will give their assent to. He snow; that no proposi tion founded upon such a erinciple can lead So a tettlemcnt of the tithe question.—(Hear.) If, then, the r e s o'.:dtions do not in c l u d e th at appro _ ha alaseed, th en , th at this is priation prin c i p l e, and the Noble L :.srd has decla re d th a t t h ey do not, he s a settlement whi c h d oes net contain a e 1„, already avowed that it can b e ne i ther principle without whi c h l a satisfactory nor final_ (Cheers ) Is it, then, too much to ask of the Noble Lord, when lie invites us to an amicable settlement, to beg of him at once net, to stultify himself as well as us.—(Hear.) lie has laid down In a resolution that there can be no satisfactory settlement with out a certain principle being agreed to. We ask of him to rescind a a resolution which .declares that' : the settlement he i s now proposing cannot be final , The Honourable Gentleman who has last spoken, has Certaiely started an unexpected difficulty in this matter, and one which cannot easily he got rid of. The Honourable Gentleman has said that he did not think that it was open for us to rescind the principle of ap propriation, for if we did rescind the principle of Lord John Russell, yet there must still remain the Act of Richard IL, in which that prin ciple is enforced. Now, I tell the Honourable Gentleman I am quite willing and quite prepared to split the difference with him, if he will consent to rescind Lord John Russell's resolution. I am prepared to give hint all the benefit of the statute of Richard IL—(Laughter.) Then the only reason that the Noble Lord can hare for maintaining his former resolution is, that there is some distinction between them and one of the resolutions to which I wish nowt° call the attention of the House, and of which he or his friends may on a fitter occasion turn to serviceable purpose, The sixth resolution runs thus :—" That it is the opinion of the Coin_ mittce, that the rent charges for ecclesiastical tithe should be appro priated by law to certain local charges, now defrayed out of the Conso lidated Fund, and to education, the surplus to form part of the Conso lidated Fund." I very well know that, upon an examieation into this resolution, that it will not be found to contain the appropriation prin.. ciple. I know that it is the mere imposition of a new charge upon the Consolidated Fund. I know that the rent-charges are to come into one hand of the Consolidated Fund, and that they are to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund with the other. This was the plain and manifest oisject and intention of the resolution, and I cannot see the necessity for wrapping it up in the words which are to found in the sixth resolution, It is merely intended that the Consolidated Fund shall certainly pay, es it does now, and that a charge shall certainly be applied to the emre,oses of Irish education. But why does the Noble Lord use a forln of words which cover the appropriation principle? Is it to satisfy, to gull. or to delude those who honestly support that eetneiple ?—(Hear, hear.) Is it to " keep the word of promise to the ear, and break it to the sense?"—or is it for the purpose of preserving it for some ulterior step to be brought forward, and vitien it may be declared that there shall be an appropriation of Chu' ch property to secular purposes ? —is it, that the Noble Lord, may to tilde to point to this resolution, and tell those who sit on this side ef the. House, " You on a former ucca. sion consented to the rent-charges being made applicable to the maintenance of the police, and to the bestowal of education in Ire. laud, and do you now pretend to raise a question upon the principle of the appropriation of ecclesiastical revenues to secular objects ?" (Hear, hear.) I cannot divest my mind of the decided improssioir that it was for the purpose of entrapping gentlemen upon this s id e of the House, by their being honestly convinced that the appro. prietiee principle was not contained in these resolutions, that this re. %elution has been put into a form of words of which use might here. after be made.--(Loud cries of " Oh, oh I" froni Members on the 'NIL piste/eat benches.) #s these resolutions are now proposed, are they, I Ask, prepared In Ireland to adopt them as a final settl ement of the question ? The Honourable Member for Dublite, after these re. solutions appeared, published, as he is wont, an a'ldress to the people of Ireland respecting them. He declared that he assented to much that was in the resoluticns ; he declared, too, ~ls readiness to assent to them for the'sake of peace, while he objected to some of them; but this, he said, was the great recommendation to him of the resolutions, that the plan contained in them did Milne' to him tne ground.work and the basis for further reductions, arlt contained es Principle which might be advantageously carried ont.—(Hear, hessr.) The Noble Lord has retbrred to an engagement which. had beet) entered into. lam not dis. posed to Swerve from ally engagement. The Noble Lord has stated that a Noble Duke had, ln another place, intimated last year his willing ness to colittielee this end another party question connected with Ireland on a plleolple of mutual concession, and neither party insisting upon extreme views, The Noble Lord. indeed, has told us, that when he consented to postpone the Corporation question until after the Tithe Bill and the Poor-law had been disposed of, that he could not behave that the Noble Duke would have offered opposition to his Tithe yesolu. tion. Now, a wond or two as to the eroceedings of the Noble I,ord upon those questions. Does the Noble Lord recollect that before the Easter re cess my Right I lon. Friend the Member for Tamwortls suggested to him the extreme necessity of postponing the Municipal Bill lentil the question of tithes was dis Posed of, and when the Noble Lord 'appeared to hesitate as to that course, he gave notice that he would Tesake a motion, that the question (that of tithes) should take prece:tenee of the other; and about a week after that time the Noble Lord acted on the suggestion of my Right Honourable Friend, but even while acting upon it took dis tinct care to inform the House te,at he was by no means acting in con_ sequence of that recornmendeaton from my Right Honourable Friend-- (Cries of " No, no.") I s was present at the time. The Noble Lord dud postpone the esaestion until after Easter. He certainly allowed the and the othe r Bill t o ta k e precedence of it. The Municipal Bill e n rest, Noble Lorel declared that he did not act in accordance with the sugges tion my Honourable Friend.—(Cries of " Nu, no.") I state this from my own recollection; but, however, I do not wish to press this point, for it is not one of very great importance. But then the Noble Lord has spoken of an agreement or understanding being entered into or implied by the Duke of Wellington. This is a matter of too much importance, on account of the high station which the Noble Duke de. servedly holds with his country—(Hear, hear)—that there should be no misunderstanding with respec t t o hi s expressions —(Hear, hear.) And I now ask the Noble Lord, will he pretend to tell me that the Duke of Welli ng t on, at any time, or under any circumstarsees, held out the hope that he would be a party to any agreement l'a which it was stipulated that the appropriation clause should be persevered in (Loud cheers.) If an agreement were come to noon this question, must not the very basis of that agreement be the abandonment of the appro priations clause ?—(Cheers)—and if it lee abandoned, as it seems to be implied it is, by abandoning these eesolutions, then I say that the manly, the straightforward, and the frank way of abandoning it would be, not to bring in ambiguous resolutions, which may be tortured into one shape or into another, but to come forSvard and to say frankly, " We wish to settle this question, and, relying upon the honour of a noble personage, who has stated his wish to have it settled, we are anxious to join him in doing so ; and in order that he may be sure we mean exactly to fulfil the compact, we, with that understanding with him, frankly rescind a rests lutiOn which stands in the way of a fair and just settlement of the question."—(Cheers.) Does the Noble Lord pretend not to know the beneficial effects which the rescinding of that resolution would. have? Does he not know that the minds of the clergymen of Ireland will be disturbed, and their fears excited, as long as he keeps that resolution hanging over their heads, and that rescinding it, they would consent to a settlement proposed by him, even though the greatest pecuniary sacrifices might fall upon (item ? Does he not know that the greatest objection to the introduction of the Municipal Bill into Ireland rests upon this ? for before that measure is consented to, it is desired to see greater security given to the Church. The Noble Lord declines to withdraw his resolution. It remains then over the heads of the clergy; it fetters legislation, and it places a vast gulf between him and us ; for it may lead to and facilitate ulterior views. The Noble Lord has much misrepresented the position of the clergy of Ireland. It is their interest that the settlement of the question may be suspended. It is so considered. I have to remind the Noble Lord, that for the pecuniary interests of the clergy, if their conscientious feelings were not excited, that the inducement for them to come to a settlement must, year after year, become with them snore and more feeble. The sacrifice which they are called upon to make of their just rights, must, year after year, become less ; while upon those who have to pay tithe, those upon, whom the payment of tithes devolves, roust every year become greater. The Noble Lord has not the means for the settlement of this question without the assent of the body of gentlemen who sit upon this side of the House. Some years ago he held out the threat of starving the clergy. He knows the wants that have been inflicted upon them, and they now prefer having the legislation all in their own hatels. Year after year they are coming into the peaceable possession of their rights, and they request to be let alone. This is their desire—.l think unwisely : for I desire an im. mediate settlement ; but, for e'ne purpose of a settlement, I never can consent to the recommendation, the adoption, or the renewal of a prin. ciple which I feel to be vicious and intolerable.—(Cheers.) And the Noble Lord treats with contempt the idea of an abstract resolution being made to stop a great measure; nay, lie has even talked of my Hon. Friend belog actuated by factious motives—(Laughter and sheers)—and also of his being instigated by his diocesan.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord has expressed his wonder at an abstract question pre, venting the passing of a great measure, and he has cavilled at it, as in.. tended to do that which it is not, to effect a political change —nay, even the Noble Lord has sneered at the occurrence of a political dinner oc. curring shortly before such an abstract question being introduced.— (Laughter.) Whatever validity there may be in these &ejections it Is certainly not from the Noble Lord that I expected to hear them.--. (Hear, and laughter.) The Noble Lord cannot have forgotten that of which the Hon. Member for Roscommon has reminded the House, that the resolutions which are now before the House are very much in sub stance the same as the Bill proposed by the Right Hon. and Gallant Member for Launceston, when Secretary for Ireland, and, therefore, that nothing could be more unfair, when there is a question before the Ilouse of which it has acknowledged the importance, that it should be opposed by an abstract reselution. I give to the Noble Lord the full benefit of that argument, 'though the resolution of 1835 had the effect, not the intention, ei course, of overthrowing the Administration._ (Cries of Heaes, hear," and laughter,) That resolution, which was an abstract resolution, and which was made to precede and prevent an unobjectionable measure—l say an unobJection. able, measure, because it Old not contain that principle which the, Govermnent measure does not now contain either.—(Cheers.) That ilk. solution preceded or followed a political dimmer, and that resolution w,, t , an abstract resolution; whereas this, so far from being an abst,-,a c t rem. lution, is one that it is most desirable to debate for the purseose of show ing how necessary it is to remove an encumbrance out eg our way; for it is impossibl e t o come to a sat i s f ac t or y de c ision tr ees the Tithe ques tion with - the resolution of the NeOle Lord Woe, u s . I t ut one declare that I am for a vettlement of the 'tithe question, if that resolution be rescinded. I am res e 'iy forthwith to enter into a discussion of the Sioble Lord's re s oheions, and with every disposition to snake every fair concessiTh to the Noble Lord. And what I desire, and what I have al. expressed my desire to do, and which I shall no w d o, i s this—l shall to bring the question to a sati s f actory settle. r)t g settlement satisfactory with respect to the principles meat; not but, cease th e 'b of justice and of truth. Lord MORPT/1 -1 know how great and utter must be my disad. vantage present myself to f o ll ow the Noble Lord who has just a /ix purr, et impar congressur ;" but if anything could have diminished thin feeli ng on my part, or if there be any ques... scl t :fen L h / e n n ; tdon on which I could have followed the Noble Lord with less hesitg.