The Sun. — London, England, 1818-02-04 00:00:00

PARLIA ME NT. MUSg tOltDs, TUESDAY, FED. 3. Y'INANCE.-13.1N 1%. RESTRICTION. The Earl of Lti t yputtnALK moved for the pro duction ,of a vasirtq of Documents on the subject of Finance : 7; AS the Amount of the net produce nl the tcni . oiiiiated Funds in each year, since 181 I -;----fhe itnititurt of :the Tales within the saute period . ; di..tinguishing the•heads of Cnstoms,' Ex cise, Stamps. &c. ; tide amount of the Funded and Untun•led Debt ; Prices of Stocks at various pe - - Timis within the sane interval, &c. The Noble Earl said, he was induced to move foY this extensive information with a view to en able their Lordships fully to understand and to de cide as to the real financial circumstances of the country at present. It- was a subject that im periously called for the fullest and most impartial inquiry in Parliament, as involving, together with a topic (to which he should shortly after refer), floc only the present, but the fate and future pros- pects of the country, of, any. that ever came under the consideration of the Legislature. With a view, then, to bring the particular topic to which be alluded to more Billy to the knowledge of the House, he would also move for: n account of the numbers and amount of Bank Notes in circula- tion at different periods, distinguishing those above 51. and also. the prices' of Bullion, the num ber of Dollars, and pieces of Eight, in circuit. tion at different periods. The Noble Earl hat , - int: moved for those, in addition to the fore- going, Lord KING adverted to the declaration said to . have bee' made in the other House of Parliament by a high ant horit y, vt hi v h appeared to him to he of the highest possible importance ; respecting which, therefore, he felt it his duty to tt quire a clear explanation from a Noble Earl opposite, to which he was the more induced from the con sideration that the most extraordinary reason asig,ned might be only the ostensible, and no t the re a l reason. What he referred to was, what bad hero said, by a Right Hon Gentleman on the subject of a resumption of cash payments by " the Bank'of England, and the reason said to he assigned by him why that most desirable , ereot vas - rick soon likely to take place.' The reason ass i g ned was, forsooth, because great loans were going forward on the part of another country. if, in former periods of our history, such a thing were to be said of the• Bank of France, as that it bad deferred making payments in cash because certain lons were going forward in Germany or any other EnrOpean country, would not, he as•k ed, such a reason or pretext be perfectly scoffed, at.? As long AS this country remained without a regular currency in specie, • there would, he must contend, be no certainty, no stability its dealings cir transactions of any description. if the paper currency were will to be persisted in, :all those incalculable: evils and inconveniences whicft the country had suffered for more than ten years,,par -ticularly in respect to the depreciation of credit, !would certainly , again arise, and in an .increased 41e4ref:. And as long ,o; such a system should prevail, sb long would it re►nain doubtful whe liter Government could "pay tl►eir debts ; if they bad not the means afforded by such issues of Paper Ciirretiev The Lir( of LIVERPOOL observed, be 'shoal() not think of detaining their Lordshilis.upon topics Nvhich were so far from being regularly before the Douse, were it not from what het oneeived apart of -what had fallen. from the Noble Lord. He would, therefore, again repeat, that there existed not the least-difference of opinion with respect to the policy adopted in the course of the last war, in reference'to a suspension of cash payments by the Bank. With respect to the important consi deration of the Bank resuming payments in spe cie, be was always of opinion, and had always sated, that it would, on the return of peace, he the interest, not only of the country, but of the Bank itself, to return to cash payments with as little delay as unavoidable circumstances would permit. He would, however, say, that not only in his 'declared opinion, hut in the Opinion )tr some of those who differed from hint as to the particular mode, such a return was, from the ne cessity of the ease, a consideration of great and peculiar impot tance. . Whatever reason may have fallen front any perscin, the measure was to be con sidered witit.reference. to the particular time.- As to circumstances. which-may .fall out, they were What could not., generally.speaking, be taken into calculation at the time, and which .could not he considered. but with a regard .to theirpartictilar merits. With respect to the subject generally, he could only state that he had every - reason to say that he believed the Bank was fully resolred, and had made 'every. preparation that circurn stances would allow, for the purpose, when there was nothing in the sitnation of the country, or in a view of foreign policy, that should delay their resumption of cash payments, and of this he could assure the Noble Lord. There may undoubtedly exist causes, or there may he circumstances con, steeled whit the transactions of other countries, which may make it a fair question for political consideration; whether there may or may-not he an adequate reason for delay., What the Noble Lortl heel alluded to:hact no inflaence in producing any effect of the kinds but it was still his opinion that bothihe disposition and the ioterest oft bat cor poration, as well as of the country, was, that cash payments should . be resumed. Any thing that might happen to alter these determinations would evidently be a matter of distinct con sideration.- '' I r ortl Ilona briefly explained. 'The Earl of 'LAUDERDALE had no inclination, at piesent, to enter into a discussion of these topics ; but a part of what fill from the Noble Earl appeared to him to be of so alarming a ten dency, that lie felt it his duty not to let it pass Without saying a few words on the occasion. In a 'discussion some time since on the subject, those who had had doubts as to the capability of the Bank. to resume its cash payments in the course of two years, were exclaimed against but when he saw that the Bank was called upon to pay such ,sums, and on the other hand, had a right to de mand the payment of other large sums, fie thought some more distinct point than that which was given would . be PrOnoiintia trpan the subje.A.— They were now told that'the Bank, not withstand.- ing-the' price- rrf ac calculated in notes, was perfectly,prepared. All he could say on that point wag, that some at least of ti►e Bank...bi reetOrX,rraf this d►►y hold opinions of an opposite nature. He would now come to what he Nettled a most dangerous position : the NPhle 1 "'" 4 said, that though, in his opinion, the Batik could pay, and that the internal , slate; of the country was .SUCh . ,aS tP.render„it. politic, yet still some thing which he hinted, and which may be under vood as refe•rting to certain loans to he mark on the part of f,►reign countries, may tend to render it impracticable. This ; he Conceived, in plain English, to be tantamount to saying, that it was the 1 1 Alliamept at France which had to tell, the Batik of E,n►gland whether or not it could resn n ►r- its payments in cash The same• might be said in a- ease where it might please the ,Governmeot ofßussia,or.of Prussia to negocinte loans. Such might be-as good 'a reason for influencing a deter, ruination 'of the Bank, as such a measure oil the part of. ,the Government of, France. All these considerations more titan ever convinced him of the necessity of having a full - and impartial in quiry instituted into the siihjece, and on which the Directors. of the Bank themselves ought certainly to be examined. lie. put it to the Noble Lords themselves to consider the de gree of responsibility, beyond that to which any Ministers had ever yet exposed themselves, iri holding a line of .conduct. with respect to this de licate and important subject, which seemed, in its present aspect, so pregnant with inimiorts• con sequences to the best interests of the country. . . The Motions.proposed as above by. the Noble Earl were then agreed to INTERNAL STATE OF IHE COUNTRY. The Order for summoning their Lordships ing read, • Viscotmt.SmmonTß,-pursuant to the notice by bad given, moved that the papers and documents which- he had yesterday presented by command of ihe,Prince. Regent, he referred to the considera tion of a Secret Comtniitee. On the Qnestion, The Marquis of LANSDnWNfi had to express his apprehension that the proposed investigation , vas Meant .as a prelude to the adoption of certain legislative measures, of a nature and effect which he could not, consistent with his duty . , approve. The information thus communicated was-natural ly supposed to relate to.the conduct of his Wes:- ty's Government, connected with the state of the country for some time last. The proposed mode did not appear to him•as likely to afford an im partial and ,satisfactory view of the subject., . To induce these, the, fullest inquiry should be .insti tuted particularly to ascertain whether or not it should be followed by the measure which he con templated.. And, in any point' of view, ~he thought such a proposition .required some pre vious explanation on the part of the Noble Secre tary of State. - Viscount SID:SW(ITH explained,•that the. course of proceediug,adopted in the present instance was in strict unison with those precedents which pre vailed,- as to the particular practice of their Lord ships' House. _ Last yeas-. she proceedings -cer tainly, commenced in, pursuance of a Royal Mes sage, under. which they were originally institut ed ; but, subsequently, the mode now adopted was pursued. It was not for hint to presume to strike out what the course.of proceeding in the : Committee should be, or to say.what measure tray likely to result from their Lordship' Report. All he proposed .was, to rater the rapers to a Committee of Secrecy ; and, on the Report which. the Colnmittee should make, it would be for the, House to consider what measures should he founded on it. He had no hesitation in stating, that the, purpose was. to put their. Lordships in possession, through the medium ofa Committee, of correct information as to the internal state of the Country since the ,report of last Session, anti the manner its which his Majesty's GovernMent had acted in relation to it. With .respec to the other House of r oadw iament, its piactice as.to authorise its' , Committees to send for persons, papers,.. and records. With their Lordships it was different ; their.comtuittee, if it thought pro pel., may apply to . the House to order the attend= ante of witnesses, who would previously be sworn at the Bar of the House, and which was generally dove on_ the motion of. the Chairman This mode of procedure was sanctioned by uniform precedent. The Earl of. CARNARVON was of opinion the Uotise migh.t.he more deliberate, in its conrseof proceeding—there existed no . necessity for expe dition. The 'country was stated from ant itority !o be in internal peace and tranquillity; their Lord ships, therefore, had not to act its this affair upon the , spur. of the occasion. 'Fite province of. the Committee was avowedly to. inquire how Mini ster's had acted ; but it was evidently little short of deluding the country: to hold. it out as. possible that a full or proper inquiry could be instituted upon information furnished ,by Ministers alone, who naturally would lay before it only such evi dence as ,they thought proper. The Report of the .Committee sboticl, in_ justice, he considered in connexion with the judicial proceedings which had taken place, and with which Ministers seemed so enamoured. • No danger could now. be asserted as likely to result front such a mode, of proceed ing. But he feared the course adopted in 1501 was strictly meant to be followed here—that of laying a foundation -for • a Bill of Indemnity, which would shield them from all. prosecutions to which their conduct may otherwise give rise; even front injuries which might have resulted front the conduct of agents employed by Ministers them selves. An inquiry.'in the way proposed could neither be regarded as impartial, nor expected to' afford satisfaction to the country. It should he general, and both sides of the question fairly in vestigated ; .and. pet haps it would appear that 'much of the evil .that had fallen ow, may ,be trkteed. to the very office of the Noble Viscount himself. It was in rain, he must repeat, to expect a full surf fair inquiry, when, the -whole was to be founded on statements furnished by . Ministers themselves. The Earl of Livitroor. said, that the question now bef►►re the.Ho►tse was whether it wouldfol low the course which had been the uniform prac tice of Parliament' with respect tci , all such cases. V.": 7 2lth respect to suet! procce ings, occasionally - originating. in a M. ssaee trout the Crown, it could inat:e no material tinferenee ; because the option as to the: tu o modes would alike test with his Majesty's Ministers. The practice of that I-louse was not to delegate to its Committees the !tower "of sending for persons, papers, and vecords . k . it was fiir Ilicc.;oottnitree. its e lf,. f .sho'ltl& it, deem, expe 7 Client, to apply specifically to the House for such a: power. The Committee, therefore, would have the power, if it should deent.it necessary, of calling for further information; and the mode now pro, posed was sanctiooed.by the almost uniform prac tice o f the Hott , .e i . n such.cases.,, Tinder such cir : - eurnstances, lie could entertain no doubt 0 4 lo the course which their Loidships would now think tit to adopt. , The present was not the pro per time for meting into . aoy detailed discussion upon the subject ; nor could he think of anticipating what •• would be thE coo their Lordships would adopt in relation tai the: report. With respect, however, to what the Noble Earl,had thrown out relative to the judicial proceeding's, lie must say, that a reference to those trials would prove so far that the report of their Lordships' last Committee was Confirmed and borne out, instead of being invalidated . . It was proved the existence of, the ,eircumstances alleged were founded in. tact, not only by repeated deci sions of Grand. Juries, hot by what had transpired at the trials .which actually took place. Mils of indictment had been found . against 50 persons, of whom 36 were, either convicted on full trial, or had unequivocally confe s sed their own guilt. He begged Jeave.al,o to remind.the Noble Lord, that it was the nuanimons.opinion of the Committees of both Houses of Parliament that. the Habeas Corpus Act should_be . sospended. In the preseut instance, the proposed Committee could in its dis cretion exercise the poWer of calling for further information on the subject before them, should they think prOper so to do. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, it was far from his intention to offer any opposition to the' mot ion _; on the contrary, it was his opinion that the subject should go to the consideration of. a' Committee. What he meant to say was, that under the particular circumstances of the case, it might be advisable to institute a more extensive scale of inquiry. In the present mode, where all the information was to come front Ministers.them selves, the result of such an inquiry, he must say, could not be expected to prove satisfactory to the country.. The. Earl of CARNAEVON explained:that be had not said the reports were falsified by the but that they were far from being borne out by the judicial. proceedings., The Noble Earl seemed to conceive the idea that they were borne out by the decision of a Grand Jury • it should be re collected, howeVer, that those decisions, as well as those to be expected from the Committee, pro ceeded entirely upon ex pare evidence. The question was then put, and the papers were ordered to be referred to the consideration of a Secret Committee ; and further, on the motion, of the,Noble Secretary, of State, that the said Com- Mittee be balloted (or, in the usual way, at five o'clock. on Thursday next ; to which , day their Lordships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Admiral PRANKS presented a Petition for leave to bring in a Bill tor imprOving Ratrisgate liar hour.--Ordered to be referred to a Committee.. Mr. SWANN presented R Petition from certain Attornies and Solicitors, praying for, the adop tion of measures to restrain inc.otnpetentand illi terate persons from acting as Conveyancers.—Or tiered to lie on the table. Mr. FlYam (from the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt) presented ac counts of all sums of money received by them in th e course of the , last.year, and applied by them to the extinction of the National Debt. CONVICTS IN NEWGATE. Mr. Brown (front Newgate) presented an ac count, of . the number of persons now tinder sen tence of death in Newgate, specifying their ages and crimes, and the periods (luting which they had been confined. Mr. KENNET begged to ask if it was likely that an call) , day would be fixed for receiv ing the Recorder's Report, which, it was under stood, had been ready to be presented (or some time. Lord CASTLEREAGH said an early day would be named for receiving it. DROPPED ORDERS. The SrEAtuu said it might be for. the conve nience of the House that , he should now direct their attention to, the Dropped Orders of yester day, in order to ascertain in what way it was their pleasure to dispose of them. The first on the list was the notice of a Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh)., for the re,appoihttnent. of the corn- mittee on the Income and Expenditure of the Country. _____ FINANCE. I Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he had no objection to bring on his motion immediately, if it met . with the approbation of the House. He thought the House wotdd see the, importance of loing no time in reviving the Committee oil the Income and Expenditure of the country. Wha , ever dif ference of opinion might exist on the subject of any particular measure between the Gefolemen on the• opposite side of the House and him, he be lieved it would be admitte - d. on all hands, that .no Committee had ever performed its duty with more fidelity and activity. He Might, perhaps, be allowed to infer, from the few questions of, im portance that had been raised on the i.uggestions which they thought fit to offer, that their reports had .been snett as the 'l oose. autl the Country had 'desired , und expected fro m t h em ; b ut , at a ll even g s , there could he bit( one opinion as to the extei,t of, the..ingniuy whickt they had made, and as to importunee. They had taken a view of all the [Mises of emolument held tinder Government, and particularly of those who had bevn though not always properly, Sinecure Oflicei.— .They had inquired into the Army, NaVy, and ,Ordnance fAtituates. k . and ► bough "they had lot considered that the House imposed (Ton them the 'task of saying s hat should be the amount of each establishment proper to be retained, they hod al • • ti. r 6, (Iv,: the Else inforMation, a t '` .,r • panted this with •many obser . vations, brod.,ht lbe Subject within cltir limits than ber,' tOfore, and witich would he found very 101: When it shotiid be discuSSed'in that Ho '' ''e' the test plaeo they had • t aken a general vit'u. rf the ex stench( tire and incOme a the e.ootry, itr order I to squat e. t item whir each other, an d shew what they Were likely to be hereafter,' at' . c they had the ineiit of havitig presented the 1-10, 0 - ,c with a very clear view of thi.most complicateti ( ~ r all subjects. TheY Were 4til: proceeding ° l° labours, tool would have,accomplisbed more . they had done, . biit for the rising of the 11" 5e ; briefly stated what had been done.by Comuott ee, it was i;oW for him to 'peak Of " ht ' i h d had been one by Crovernm ent •consequen" t the teporta of that Committee. On the nre se ",, oecasion it was not, his jutention to go into rninttle details,. but should the Committe e re-appointed, it would be the duty, verriment : to . state to tlietit. what bad b e C I done pursuant to their recOmmendation , I t o why Some things bad not been done. 1 % won(1 say more, that when they bef" r l the House he was confident it would. be seen tl' a Miniiters had been anxious to give early ,effec t is the reports of the ComMittee. The gr ounds which, in.eertain special cases, they had not a cre( 0 on them would he laid before the Commi:tee.svh, would, then have an opportunity of re•-c Onside the cases seferred.to. At the time- he the first formation ot this Committee, be liatf stated that he was Hot sanguine enough to exP I L ' " ", it could termioate its lahloirs in i m r e y e a. '"' was of opinion they Might he required for a s s `: and possibly :or a third. After a vc" r such magnitude and extended dnration,as tita l have just closed, he had thought it . likely much time might be requited to satisfy the 1 1 ° . ' 5 : erbat was the extent .4 the revenue alt'l expe° l - '1 titre to lie c a lculated upon in a time of Peace , 3/1 ., what the measures necessary to b e Rt h i ptol, only to keep from running back, but to see ul the means tOr effecting an iatportant reduction (I the national debt. When he had spoken thus , '' l ; Hon. Gentiman (the Member for Braintier) objected to the protracted inquiry, which the L" :- guage he had refer' ed to seemed to that 1 1 ' n " Gentleman to announce. He, objected to the (l c lay which be expected would follow from the 31 r f pointtnent of a Committee, whose labours n' i ^ d • not close forr three years, as if be had apprebe" t that nothing would be done in the mean time. v , ~ thought it had been shewn by the Reports of I " CoMmittee, and by the measures of the Go veTnnit"T' that this fear was . not well-founded, but he ".'l9 anxious that it should be seen what flirt ber could b i t ; done within tire period of which he had spoken. would be trespassing on the time of the House to ' r o i i nto s tli o e n same ly? : jc l h c ) se,tt h of i s o t ig statements e n n e t :es o s ri rat last e pre y ti c e a l t yea r ' y when moving for the .aproiottnent trt this tet2ii roittee„ The 'subject which it had been appoin t° , to investigate, having by its labours hecu . litoog h ; within a narrower compass than it had been fot ni4 in before,, the House might flow expect its a ttest i tion to be directed to the details ra'her r!' . the ontlinc. On the improved state of Ireland lie spoke spoke with much satisfaction. The m anner It o which that country h a d itml4 ~0, the ).at i : season ot calamity w i t h n „, . triv i lro .. fs i„, l for the relief of th e p o or, ‘7 1 ,,...4 trlt! al pleasure and surprise. The spirit of ebe'",?; Solid benevolence displayed on th e p a rt of I " - higher orders had drawn the bonds of r" cial attachment closer than ever tocy had fore been drawn in that country. lie bored la: an early day the attention of the House Ty directed to the increased or dirninished exVo' lure of the last year, when it might- be disclose' with the advantage not only of the former Ile. ports of the Committee, but. with that of a plententary Report. lie concluded by the re•appoietment of the Committee of last . to inquire into the expenditure and income or country for the years ending January 5, 1617 , January 5, ISIS, and so tar as the same can made out, to make an estimate of the income expenditure -ot the country.for the year 0 0i° ' January 5, 1819, and also to point out what f"" Cher reductions can be made without detrimen t to the public interest. While the list of the Members of the Comma' tee was being read over, Mr. BANKES remarked that one Right il () " . Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had not been named ti rs ., the committee last year (on account of ill heal'!" who Was capable of affording the most itnportan services where matters of finance were tiod& consideration. As the former cause for his ou: settee no longer existed, he hoped ,to see 0).6 Right Hon. Gentleman in the Committee th is year. Mr. TWICEY said,, if on any particular occit• sion he could afford the Committee any inforto3' tion, he should be happy to give them every flsi sistance in his power ; but though' he was recOvered from his late indisposition, he 'feared 11 he gave his attendance to the Committee in the c morning, be should be • uniqual . to the duty 01- the evening, and should therefore feel obliged : g, the I-louse would excuse him. Ile wished it td be understood that on no other - account did be wish to decline b.ing on the Committee. Lord CASTLEREAGH Irctithititil the House thiA constitutionthe Of the Committee was not 5(1 0 1 -1 as tOpreVeut ally Meinher being' called to assist its deliberations. Much benefit bad been derive d from the cotti;e pursued in the last - session, ( 6 ' 4 of inviting Mittibers in uliicial situ3tions to giv ti such information as it might be in their power P ° :Ilford, and as this had been found the most CO' venient way of conducting the inquiry, be had 110' doubt that the Committee,. when re-appointi would be glad to derive assistance from Gruel e ' . men, who were not .members of the same Co.,To'. ,tnittee. Air. BANK ES aought the calippon a pae.ui,f : e f fieer different front (bat of a private Memb , t 0 tie house. The former might be called t`' attend this Cominittve, but he hardly knew I. o ` c . a person holding no oftke, and not being ono or. its INletr.bers, could be present,at its sitting bGt an idle peison. theretore could wish Ih" ( the trAnie of the light Honourable Gentlero'" should be added to the Committee, or dint; the Committee should.have ti power of int:tea-11 , 1 14 -numbers front to time. Such a power he thutil't .~ I`r , h ,~ t) ,~ tKp ! tlr~ a IL 11 " Al tlnh eiHI Mot • a lit th at • !bi g 1)e p Jere be t Ivad If sl u ror " as 11„1 u t( k i 'ttt tf fur t , bc; cc,i~ ; till( it (U sni ih e r i Prtf, tek, th e uttu jje , 1,1„, „ t ~uh G~'~~ ~j~ l,; ~, ~t+ i Pre ! ~t is Tit( fiti, 'chi Par . 'lat., r f; tit) ► Are► th e abd to t 0 11 1 tlr tb a pr o 'be 'lid 1 1le bni cl er t ee Are tha h a( 1 H I) the 'tin! . 41)e faci Apo th e tips ;g m fish flit