The Sun. — London, England, 1810-06-06 00:00:00

and the Holyhead Harbour Bill, %vete read a third time and passed. The various Bills for imposing additional taxes in Ireland went through Connittees.—Td report to morrow. MARINE PAY.° FFI CE. Sir Jr NEWPORT postponed his ineanded motion for the further consideration of the Alarine Pay-Of fice Bill, to the next Session. He observed that although the accounts of the last two year had not been made up, the House, by a too. hasty consider ation, might involve the charaeter . of several respect able'individuals on this ground he wished to defer his proposision. • .On the motion of Colonel FREEMANTLE, returns of the amount of sums arising nom the Droits of Ad miralty, now in the Treasury, were Ordered to be laid before die House. PUBLIC EXPENDITURE. Sir T.TuaTorr, according to notice, moved that .there should be laid hereafter before the House an account of the Public Expenditure of theprecediog year, previous to the loth of February, and to the voting supplies for the ensuing year. Mr. FOSTER and Mr. Rost:' opposed the motion on the grounds of its impraelicability. • Mr. P. Mooae supported the motion, and said that if this measure had been before put into effea, there would have been since the war a saving to the Public of too millions. s - The CHANCELLOR . of the EXCHECIITER said, that 'the accounts were at present made up against the earliest possible period, he thought that the Hon. Baronet's obje6t could. not be put in prthice.• Sir T. TURTON called for a division.—There ap peared— For the motion - Against it - MajOiity - -38 On out return to the Gallery, the,question before the 1-lou-e was for r2suming . the debate upon . the • Gloucestershire Petition. Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that it was rather ex- traordinary that the yetition had not been present-. ed by the other Member for Gloucester. He asked the Hon. Gentleman •who brought it before the Hose, in case the .Petition was suffered to lie on the table, what steps he intende - d to take ? Mr. SWAN said, that he was totally unconothed • Gloucester. When the Petition was put into his hands, he did not know it to be personal, but when he read it, he conceited that it should be made known to the, relatives of the individual concerned ; upon which, lie Waited on a Noble Lord, a relation, and inquired if the family knew of the Petition; He answered, they bad heard of it ; and; in conse, quence of its containing certain allegations, he ad . vlsed him not to present it to the HOuse.. In,a subsequent and sinylar conversation, in t. !itch Ser jeaut Best participated, it was again decided that the Petition should not be presetited. He had strewn it to most of the Members on the other side of the House ; he had no personal objea, nor did he know what coarse t( pursue. Lord DURSLEY said, that to prevent his words from being misreiwesented, he had committed io pa per what lie should now read to the Houie, and which was in substance as toil ! ,ws 1 am autho rised by my fothcr, the Eli , ' of . Berkeley, to assert, that lam his L. , ldest_son and heir apparent. This de .-12ration I cnoild by vrt yui w is opt qualifications. which are in my possession ; but I ;eel so shocked at the im utation on my title and my birth, that I prefer the present mode. It is in try power to afford the House any information it may wish on the subject." Mr. Wne-rn READ inquired if the Freeholders Who presented this Petition could be specified ? • Mr. Swan replied, he received it from a Free _ bolder. Mr. KENRICK thought, that it was disorderly to ask such a question. . Mr. WYNNE asked the Speaker, it - under the present circumstance of not knowing the Petiti oner, it was possible to enter into any further con sideration. The SPEAKER replied, that it was expeaed •froto every Member, who presented a Petition, to say, that as far as his belief went, the Petition was law. folly signed ; it was not necessary; however, that the Petitioners should come limn the farthest part of the kingdoM to prove their !laud-writing... Sir Jottts ANSTRUTHER made a fe ' w• observa tions,' when the question was put, and the debate resumed. Sir S. ROMILLY askel the Hon. Gentleman, be fore the question for the Petition lying on the table shall be put, if it was his intention to produce any evidence of the allegations.. - Mr. SWAN said, that he simply moved for the Pe tition to lie on the table, he then left it to the House to aSt as they pleased. Sir S. ROMILLY did not know what steps the House could take.—To the Nobie Lord himself no blame could be attached; he relied•on the assertions of a parent, and had even bt•en received by his So vere gn. Would they suffer this Petition to, lie on their table to be held out in terr or ern,and for no other purpose than exciting uneasiness, and producing Animosity in breasts where the fondest afletion ex . istedl—lf the House were to receive this Petition, it wool(' be hereafter in the power of malignity to poison conjugal happiness, and to plant thorns in the 'warts of the innocent, by . making the proceedings of this House a vehicle to publish its libels The I-louse must see the tn:schief of this measure ; it was a case without example ; respecting it no party spirit could exist, and he trusted for its releaion in the. generc a us lecling;s of the Right Hon. Gentleman ypposite. Mr. Kt :mum said, tharthe petition WRS framed wit(i ctisiderible attention to its not being obnoxi- Ns, no other Member snggestcd it, he' felt it tobe Ips duty, to move that the petition should be TlPtertd to a committee of Privileges. l4r. TrotNEy wished to knoce from thelearned whether be would undertakd that the petitioners (supposing the House teceivtd their Pe would proeed. • bar. •Y,E);Hicr, woal give no pledge. Ile bad leisnc fr o m ihe Counsel emplo}el; th•tt it Would be prtersaty to aptly for the Spgalier's.warrant, to en, force the attendance of U;itnesses to prove the do ct.tmentayy evidenceJef.erred to in the Petition; T.ts.plEy expressed himself dis,atisfied, and Tr:l 40 . i t t 4ittLyrity tt.o.rn tf . .y iNobic family of lierke.-.: ley for so doing, dec.tared hi intention of moving fat the reieflicn. • • • • ••• • -•' The CHAFC2LijOR of the EXCHrAVER conceived, that all which the House could de ire, was, that the party petitionin: : ; should make good the al:ega- • tioni. The assurance of his Learned Friend, there fore, in his ()Onion was sufficient, Mr. ItJsz regrettea that the question should have come before the House, but being before the House his oi,inion was, that It was cognizable under the Grenville Act. Sir J. ANSTRUTHER was of the contrary opinion. He thought before the Petition was laid on the table, the House ought to be informed whether any Hon. Member was prepared to prove the allegation, viz. that the Noble Lord is not the legitimate son of Lord Berkeley. If not, then he should Obje6.l to its being laid on the hble. Some observations in ex pianation took place between.Mr._KENll ICE,. Sir J. ANSTIWTHER, and Mr. TIElibiEY. . - Mr. FuLica thought the 'EleCtors should have raised the objeaion at the eleCtion. It was coMpe tent, however, for them to object to the. qualifica tion, Mid he should be.for doing justice. Mr. BATlturtsr wished the Hon. Gentleman who presented the Petition, had asked the Petitioners whether they were, or not, prepared ,to prove their Case. He regretted the extreme cruelty and scan dal whiCh must. necessarily follow the agitation of the subject ; but on the whole he thought it impos sible for the House to refuse going into the inquiry. Mr. W. WYNNE entertained a similar opinion perhaps it would be better to refer it to a Committee of Privileges. The SPEAKER put the question for receiving tLe Petition, when The SOLICITOR-GENERAL ro , :e, and after stating , his opinion upon the necessity of attending to the prayer of the Petition on the ground of justice, moved as an' amendment—" That the Petition be referred to the Committee of Privileges." Mr. CANNING had considerable difficulty on the subje&. The pia&ical question for the House to determine was; whether iti deference to certain Pe titioners they should enter into the inquiry, which from all that had transpired, cou:d not be satifaetory in the result to tee Petitioners. On the other hand, the inquiry might prejudice the Noble Lord in his rights. Would the rights of any individual be com promised in the event of the House refusing to in -quite ? Certainly not. Strong ground for inference' that the allegations were true might be the result, but the facts would still remain unproved. The particular grievance which the Electiirs complained of-was known to them at the Election, and a long time before it ; they were bound then to ha‘e made the objection, which they now di i, a't the Election. The parkular grievance was a question that related eirirely to Parliament, unless it was intended that the interference of Patliament should be circum scribed by any body of Electors. The House there fore were Cound to exercise its discretion as to re ceiving the petition, conceit Jig that no red griev ance would go unredressed, but that on the other hand much hardships, cruelty, rmdslander, would be experienced by the Noble Fa;nily, if received. He wbuld.vote fur the rejection of the Petition. The CHANCELLOR of the Eiienttaueet agreed 'with. his, Ititelit Hut - nable . Friend as to tlO lnd ,hips and delicacy of the question, but .he would concur in the vote,. Co , he thoieght the law of the land v.as imperative as to the petition being receiV, ed, stating as. it did a cause for complaint: The House could exercise its di , cretione it had ix'en agreed on all hands that the Petition .carne under the meaning, of the Grenville ACt, and must therefore be taken into consideration. . • Mr. H. Small was of: opinion the House could entertain a discretionary rovtr, and s ( iould vote for . its reitaton. The House then divided— For referring the Petition . . 46 Against it . . . . . 9: • Majority . . . — 4; The - Petition was of course. rcieaed: "PENITENTIARY HOUSES. Sir S. ROMILLY, on the re-admission of strangers, was on his legs for the purpose of:, renewing a mo tion which he had submitted to the House about a month since, relative to the e 4 ablishroent of peni tentiary houses. Having sated his - sentiments on. that occasion at large, it would not be necessary for him to occupy the House at present. with toore than a few %voids. His objea was to carry into execution a plan for the recirmation of the criminal law, which when:first _proposed, held on , the best.prospea that ever was devised ; a plan wh ch had been framed by the wisest men, who had devot d their whole time to i s fbimation, a plan which was f,unded te on' the principle of providing for the reform of union unate conviets; by separating them in . their cor , finemere, by teaching them habits of industry, and furnishing them with religious instroetion, whereby they might be restored to .sbciety, Ul.d enabled to obtain an Ii nest livehhood for themselves. This N i a had the ap probation of Mr. Justice Blackstone, , :titi o Looked upon it as likely to supersede in tirne the necessity of severe punishments by lessening the prevalence of offences. Yet this plan had remained 30 years; nearly, on the statute book, and no step had been' to put it into execution. The.present mode of con finement in the ordinary prisons', and' on board the hulks, had the • effe:q of hardening the prisoner.; in their guilt, and leading them, by the contagion of example, to the commission of the most atrocious crimes, at which they might shedder on'their first imprisonment. This was the case in all the prisons olEngland, with a few honourable exceptions, and pre-eminently so in theit prison in the metrbpolis, which was more imm e diately und er t h e notice of the public. That prison situated not far from the mo nument erected to the benevolent Howard, was a reproach to . the country. The Hon. Gentleman enumerated the evils resulting fiom the confinement, :promiscuously, of persons of different ages and de grees 'of guilt; iu the prisons and hulks, whereby the less criminal and experienced were tutored into the c6mtnission of more hellions crimes, of which they were before innocent. He had never said that transportation should be altogether abolished : but he thought it cruel that . any persons, but tho-e sett tenced for life, should be :°transported. , In 1800, 40 persons [ad been, transported who had but one year of their term to expire; 'and !d who had brA - t nine months, were' transporfea 'to New South .Wales, a.Alyage - of nine montlil. Even I;st August, Or/1U men had been transported hav ing only two yeari of their term • uneXpired. It was 'cruellO•send - out unhappy &mitts - tinder such CirctutotanCes, With.unt tyro , . iding the mean cif ti•teir return ; it was particularly so with respe& .to fe male, and persons of feeble frameS, who were un able to work their passage home. He deprecated the idea that transportation was but a summer voy age to a better climate, as it might have a very grievous effect it such an impression. were to be felt by magistrates throughout the country, intrust ed with the administration of the laws. The system of penitentiaties had been successfully tried in America, and had produced the most beneficial re-. sults in England, wherever it. had been tried. The Government of Ireland deserved the highest praise for its encouragement of this system; and if the. -British Government, with the experience of Not- , tingham, and the example of America and Ireland, should •still adhere to the present systcm,.it would merit as much censure as the Irish Govei•nment merited honour. He should therefore move, " That an humble Address be pre , 4enttd to his Majesty, that he would be graciously ple:lsed to give direc tions for carrying into etre& so much Of the t9tit of the King as `relates to creating penitentiary prisons, and also to carry into execution the A& of the 34th • of his reign." Mr. Secretary RYDER said,-that when he last in duced his Hon. Friend to withdraw this motion, it was under the eivettation that he should be able to procure complete information upon the subje6l; that information he had since not obtained, in Gen,. sequence of the absence from London'of a Gentle , man who had applied himself laboriously to the cons'derat ion of such sebjeas. ? He had coma-Juni ' cations with that distinguished individual Sir Georee Paul, and lie found that doubts were entertained Whether considerable improvements might not be made in the system enacted by the 19th and 34th of the King. He hoped, therefore, that his Hon. and Learned Friend would wirhdiaw his motion, under an understandihg .that the question should be taken up at an early period of the next Session, when they would have' the advantage of all the practical infor mation that could be obtained on the subje&. He had inquired into the circumstance of the persons transported, as.alluded to by his Hon. and Learned Friend, and found that they had conducted them ;selves in excising the other convicts to commotion, and assisted in the escape of three that had been re commended for transportation. • Mr. BATHURST said, he should propose a midd;e course, and that 'was, that the House should give a distinct pledge to take the question into conside-' ration early next Session. Mr. WILBEFFORCE regretted that a suggestion of his on a former occasion for re-print , ing the Report on this subjed had-not been attended ta,. because, if that Report had been in the hands Of Gentlemen, it would- be- itnptissible lor them not to agree to the motion of his Hon. Friend. He was aware of the arduous duties which his Right Hon. Friend had to perform; but when he.recollecled how often this admirable; plan had been near be ng carried into exe cution, he could not reconcile himself to any delay of. the motion. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL preferred the middle course. Mr. WHITBREAD suppofted the motion. He said, iliat of Mr. Howard, with whiim he had, been intimately connee . ed frorn bisintanc . y, bad been misunderstood. Mr. Howard rlever thought of solitary imprisonment as a punislime:it ought to. be comiouett fur more than a iery short time. The question was then put, and the motion Was lost by.a majority of 6g to 52. NAVAL INQUIRY. Mr. StiAnPE comidained that the Fifteenth Report •of the Commissioners of Naval .Revision had not been laid before the House. The Report to which he alluded set forth the 'necessity of establishing a new Naval Arsenal at Northfieet. It appealed that our harbours at Portsmouth and klymouth were:on the decline, havirg less der Li of water than former ly, so that the ships coming in to be repaired, :Were obliged to have their guns and stores taken out bp - fore they could enter.' Similar inconveniences were experienced at Deptford and at Woolwich, so that ships of . the line were obliged to drop down to Long Reach, or Northfleet to be fitted out for sea. Ti•,ese circumstances rendered the estab:ishment cf a new Naval , Arsenal necessary. The immense .expences incurred in consequence of the evils he had described . were sufficient to answer any object ion - that might be made to the expence attending .the e , tablicihment of a new Naval Arsenal„ however , great .it might be. 'ln the event of a peace, such an establishment would be necessary, as room would be wanting to lay up 130 siii of the line, and upwards of 400 other vess.b of war. This was propoed in the Report, as a remedy for the evilS complained of, and N..rilatet was named as having a greater depth of water than. either of our docks at Portsmouth, at Plytnop . 'l, at Deptford, or at Woolwich. He thcught the .Report ought to be laid on their table, an d c onc luded 'by moving " an humble Address to his' Majesty, praying that be , Would be graciouly pleased to dired that the Fif teenth Report of Commissioners of Naval Re vision, and the riePOrt seat in to the Board of Ad miralty, dated Q. f1.,:t.L307, and signed J. Kenny and J. Whitby, relating to Mooring Chains; be laid before that House." Mr. YORK observed the present - naval exertions had outgrown all former systems ; and it would, therefore, be proper to make - some new arrange ment to 'meet the inconvenience thence arising. It was, however, the first duty of Government to look well into - all the circutristances and bearings of the case, before 'they expended 10,000,0001. in forming the proposed new arsenal at NortlitLet. The House could' not 'at. pre ,, ent enter fully into the ques tion with prudence, but be hoped Government, at a. period not very distant, would be able to grant the information required, Or give satisfa6tory reasons fir withholding it. He should oppose the Motion, as the Report could not be prodUced at present with otit,Much inconvenience to thepublic service. Mr. WILBERFORCR adverted to Lord Melville's narrative on the snbjecl. He did not think it atall un..afe tbr the Report to lie on the table. If the measure was thought of some years ago, it was still more nec.2ssary from the present aspect of altairs to put it into rina. With reaped to the calculation, ,Lord. Barham's authority was. sufficient. He did not immediately approve of the produ6tion of the papers, and hoped that ere long something etredual w bold be adopted. Mr. ROSE ap[roved of the authorities cited by the I-lou. ; Gentleman, t o w hi c h he wished is add that of Lord Vincent, who tkOught there. - was or; absolute necessity of fortificatiocs and armaments eastward of Spithead. The dock-yards, instead of declining, are in a cons•ant state of improvement In the harbour of Portsmouth Illere is no want of deep water. He alluded to his publication on the depth of the Thames, i❑ which the most skilful and experienced judges concurred. The idea of manu facturing sail cloths in the yards he deemed to be totally misconceived. He never asserted that there should be no arsenal at Northfleet; 'lie merely deemed strict inquiry necessary into the extent of such a work. • Mr. DUNDAS wished - that the Hon. Gentleman would not at present press his motion. He agreed • with his several statements. The • ques tion has been-already before the Privy Council, hut in consequence of the - greatexpence necessary, no decision has been come to. Before the Public em bark. in the propOsition, they should have the whole scheme before them. Mr, W. Stvwcn stated, that almost every Noble Lord who has been at the head -of the Admiralty, has 11t a memorandum of the importance of this measure. It should not be postponed, inasmtiai it concerned the independence of the kingdom. Mr.•CROKEQ observed, that the Hon. Gentleman did not hear his Right Hon. Friend state, that the matter bad been long under—consideration: The delay did not arise from any 'unwillingness, but from. its great importance, and the wish to avoid bring ing it out piece-meal. Mr. StfARPE hoped that he stood acquitted to•the House of not having proposed anything indiscreet Mr. DUNDAS expldirred. I The questiOn was then put, and negatived with - I out a division. Mr. BANKES postponed till this day the adjourned debate on the Irish Pension List. The Foreign Timber Bill- went through a Corn mittee.—To be reported to-day. On the motion Ibr the second reading of the East India Loan Bill, Mr. CREEVBY, adverting to the -late hour of the , night, opposcFthe motion ; he expressed his asto nishment at its now I.k!ing brought forward, notwith standing its being understood that a debate was to take place .on the subjea, in this stage.—He moved that the debate be adjourned: Mr. DONOAs did not know of any such under standing.—He thought that the opposition was to . have taken place in the Committee. Mr. CREEVEY expresied his determination oftak ing the sense of the Wuse. The House accordingly divided. There appeared---• For the "Kinenclincnt . . . 23 Apinst*it : . . . . . '6r .Majority . . . On our. return to the Gallery, we found Sir T. TuirroN speaking on a second motion of Mr. C.:fee vc,:r's for the ad . i))urnment of the House. Mr. W. W i NNE made a number of observations; he not see any objection to the prese - nt motion, nor: why s MiniSters wished to shorten the Session. Per haps, from recent .appearances they feared long dis cussions. A diVisian was called tor there ap peared _ _ _ For the Adjaufnment Ag.iinst it . . . . Majority - .— So • 1 Whie strangers were excluded, another divisioP. '.. took place on the second reading-of the Bill: They; appeared— , For the second reading . . . 61 Against it . . ..... 14 Majority . . . —l7 The Bill was accordingly read .a, second tire,-and ordered to be committed on Thursday. Tne Assessed Taxes Bill went through a Gin!' mittee. To be reported to-morrow. Toe other Orde'Fs of the Day were then dispoied of, and the Ho - use adjourned at Two o'Clock. MAILS.. Aakiv ea —1 Heligoland, i Dub:in, i Waterford. Gottenburgh, a Lisbon, z Waterford-. PRICE OF STOCKS THIS I) Y AT TWELVE CeCLOCr Consols 71i for Op. I Red. Ann. - (i9j Uranium 1 1 tl. .12; 6 UN. SOLEM QUIS 3ICFErZ.I 7 . At:Dr:AT? L 0 N D V N, WEDNESDAY, JUNE G y 118 !O. I This moron% we. received .Puiel4 Papers to the . 34 . inst. and some .Gerrnan Papers of an old date. The rumours of a negotiation s between Gieat Britain and France, which were lately so prevalent upon like .Continent; .seen) to hate died away, 'and to - bac° -ben succeeded by others of a more hostile descii.i lion. BUONAPARTE, it is said, is determined to make some grand maritime effort this summer, aa d has therefore hastened forward the naval prepare' tioos at Antwerp, with his charaderis.tic vehemence' While he Ar'as at Antwerp, be was locked up . -for Se veral bourS each day with his brother JEROake and the Minister of Marine arranging, as it was. supposed, the plans of \his grand naval expedi tion. JEROkE, We presume; was admitted into these consultations, because_ he was an Admiral' but an Admiral of less experience we believe never existed, and if BL/ONAPAITE does not consul: more able advisers, we need not look to the result of the expedition with much apprehension.- - The Courts of Petersburgh, Stockholm, and Copen' hagen, are, it is said, to take their share in this grand maritime alba, at least the number of couriers which have been sent to them by BUONAPARTS has given the to that opinion. These reports in the- Continental Papers are, perhaps, a little exaggerated, but there can be little doubt but that a most formidable armament will be collected at Antwerp this summer. The wisdom of the attack_ upon that great naval arsenal, will, we are con' vinced, become every day more apparent, though the Opposition, in their eagerness to arraign Milli s'ets, censured them as much for sele_ling the