The Sun. — London, England, 1836-03-08 00:00:00

by Catholic constituencies on the mere ground of their cha racter ; for their honour, their wisdom, and their judgment (all of which qualities I dare say the majority of them possess) vithout any distinct and uncompromising profession of political faith ?. I have now, Sir, stated, perhaps at more than sufficient length the reasons which have induced me not only to concur in the views of my Hon. Friend, but to undertake the task of sub tnittin&,, to the nous: a proposition which embodies the views of himself and those with whom he acts. 'I hese gentlemen avho arc opposed to these views can have no reason to complain of that Aid) others may regret, that the task of mooting the question was not placed in other hands.—( Hear, hear.) It now only remains for me briefly to touch upon that branch of the subject, into the details of which, this perhaps is not the time to enter, but when I lay before the House a proposition which, if it succeed, would render nugatory the propositions of the Government, it would hardly be respectful to them or to the House, to omit all statement of the mode in svhich those with whom I act would be disposed to s.Apply the deficiencies we should then create. I confeAs I see none of the difficulties connected with this branch of the subject which so frequently attend legislative changes of extensive application. The classification of the various objects' which leave either been mearlit or a:arsine:l by the institution of corporate Govern ment, is a simple and obvious one. exclude on this occasion the conSaleration of the political and party pur poses for which the contemplated powers may have been created, or to which they have been since diverted. The con flicting theories on these subjects 1 do not propose to argue. It is sufficient for me, without either proving - the existence of those purposes, or entering into their justification or con lem nation, to feel that these are no longer to be attained in favour of one party, and ought not to be sought in favour of another. The real and natural objects of corporate government appear to me to be these—the administration of justice ; the control and direction of that police force, whatever it may be, to which the protection of the person and of property is confided ; the administration of corporate property; and the regulation of those other not unimportant matters which concern the health, the comfort, and the convenience of the community—the light ing, the paving, the draining, &c. For the due regulation of these, it appears to me that the extinction of corporate authority will not create the smallest difficulty. To the attainment of some, it appears to me that in Ireland that extinction will afford a favourable opportunity and direct assistance. I propose that those towns and cities, now counties, should remain counties of towns and cities ; that they should, as now, have their sheriff, but that that sheriff should be appointed by the Crown as the county sheriff is at present.—( Hear.) By that officer, so deriving his functions, the grand and petty juries will con tinue to be summoned. The other cities and towns will be subject to the jurisdiction of magistrates appointed by the Crown, and will be under the county sheriff and the ordinary parochial authorities. As to corporate property, it appears to my Right Hon. Friend and myself that for the present, it would be expedient to vest it in a Commission to be appointed by the Crown, to be considered as a temporary arrangement, and with a view of appropriating, under the sanction of Parlia ment, the corporate funds of each town possessing corporate property to its municipal purposes. But the rrention of this branch of the subject brings under consideration one item of that property which I think, well deserves a separate consideration and special provisions. I allude to cor porate tolls. lam not aware that the attention of the Reformed Parliament has been specifically called to that great subject, the features of which it is unnecessary to particularise. Irish Members—but I would implore those gentlemen from England, who have no experience of that system to give their attention to the report of a com mittee of Inquiry, -which did not, I believe, take evidence, and to the evidence which was taken by another—and I think they will agree with me, that no greater substantial benefit could be conferred on any community in Ireland, than the re moval of this exaction from its industry—( Hear, hear)—than the stifling of this perenn!al source of personal violence, per jury, and violation of the law. I believe that this wretched mode of exaction, one which, if zonducted with deceney, is not inconvenient of application, and not opposed to the facile interchange of the articles of daily subsistence, has proved a secure source of the revenue which does accrue to corporate towns, and of which I am not aware it is proposed to deprive them under the present Bill. I believe that resistance to these corporate tolls in every possible shape of violence and evasion has become habitual, and that party spirit has, as usual in Ireland, lent its adventitious aid in their case to the natural impatience of a confined, anomaldus, and 1 may say impracticable, system of pecuniary imposition. I have not looked upon this subject as some, for whom I have much re spect, have frequently looked upon it, in that separate point of view which confines itself to considerations of religious difference. That danger to Protestant institutions should be anticipated from any measure which opens new fields to political agitation, I for one cannot but anticipate or appre hend, but I know that religious zeal may be prone to aggra vate those dangers. It is not essential to the correction of every evil which I dread as contingent upon this measure, that party difference should either universally or generally take a sectarian turn. It is sufficient for my argument, if the inquisition into political, and not into religious, creed should invariably attend the candidate for municipl office. I have said nothing to arouse the excited fears, or exaggerate the apprehensions of Irish Protestants ; but if these fears are ex cited, and if they can be soothed without a sacrifice, I am satisfied that his Majesty's Government will not, at least, think, that a reason for preserving in the measure which ex cites, or against adopting a course which may remove them. There may be those, not within these walls, I trust, who would see these fears with satisfaction, who would chafe on being checked in their progress to what they conceive a triumph. Such I would implore to call up more generous feelings to their aid to consider the condition of their country beyond the gra tification of the moment, to reject the barren laurels of petty e'estion triumphs, and seek for the better reward which attends the sacrifice of long cherished feelings of hatred and displea sure. You have interposed the resolutions of your Parliament and the paternal advice of your Sovereign to exhort—to cau tion—to restrain. That call has been answered as it deserved and you had a right to expect; beware how you do that which may mar the best results of your efforts—beware, lest indi rectly by your present measures, by substituting a new exclu sion for that you destroy, by giving a legal sanction to change, or an averted triumph to party, you make martyrs of those from whose hands you have struck the instruments of exclusion, and convert what you allege to have been an intolerant faction into a prescribed or persecuted sect. 'I he Noble Lord ,concluded by thanking the House for the patient attention with which they had listened to the observations he had felt it his duty to urge on the present occasion, and by moving that the Committee on the Bill for the Regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ire land be empowered to make provisions for the abolition of such Corporations, and for such arrangements as may be necessary, on their abolition, for securing the efficient and impartial admi nistration, and the peace and good government of cities and towns in Ireland.—( Cheers. ) Mr. LE RRO Y rose to second the motion of the Noble Lord. He had looked in vain through the Bill for any ex planation of the principle upon which the measure was founded. Adverting, then, to the provisions of the measure of his Ma jesty's Government, it appeared that there were 117 places visited by the inquisition, by courtesy styled commission. Of these 117, 67 were selected by the Bill of last year as being worthy of retaining in them the new system of incorporation. • Upon what principle the remainder of the 117 were excluded he (Mr. Lefroy) was at a loss to conceive. It had not been stated, either by the late or the present Attorney-General, what was the principle by which they were governed when they allowed no less than 50 of the 117 to wallow in all the abomination in which it was alleged they existed ?—(,Hear.) In the present Bill, however, only 54 places were selected for the purposes of introducing into them the new system of in corporation. Here was another inconsistency, which left him at a still greater loss to discover what was the prin ciple. which influenced his Majesty's Government in the framing of this measure. Why in the present Bill are only 54 plaeea selected for the new system of incorpora tion, whilst in the measure of last year there were no less than 67. —(Hear, hear.) No principle was suggested— no reason given in the speech of the Right Hon. the At torney General for this alteration. Then with respect to the fifty-four selected, he could not find any uniform principle pervading the measure as applied to them. With respect to the eleven first, which constituted the subject mat ter of schedules A and 0, the House was told that the princi ple applied to them was the principle of population—that where the population did not exceed 20,000, and was not less than 15,000, they were to have the advantage of the new sys tem of incorporation.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if the principle of population were held to be applicable to schedules A and B, he wanted to know why the same principle was not applied to schedule C. But what was the fact with respect to the re maining forty-three places included in schedule C ? 'I here were in Ireland eighteen places, containing more than double the average population of eighteen of those in schedule C.— (Hear, hear.) Amongst the eighteen places omitted there were thirteen which were included in last year's Bill, of which Dunnarvon was one. The Attorney-General would no doubt be able to inform the House upon what principle this was done. The average property of the boroughs in schedule C was 120/. a yds-, and there were seventeen of the forty-three with no property at all : and three of them had 9/., 12/., and 15/. a year. Upon what principle of justice then, he asked, were these boroughs to be burdened with the enormous c x)enses which was sure to be entailoli by this new system of incorpo ration.—( Hear.) There was, he contended, no objection that existed to the old system of self-election which was not equally applicable to that now proposd. Ode great objection to the old system was its exclusiveness. He admitted that under the change of policy which had been of late years introduced into the ad ministration of affairs in this country, this system of exclusive ness Blight not to be maintained ; but be should be allowed to say, on behalf of the Corporations of Ireland about to be abolished under this stigma, that it originated igvith their charter, that it flowed necessa ril y from their consti t u tion. He admitted that under the recent system of policy adopted these countries, it was no longer prudent to maintain a prin ciple of exclusiveness--( Hear, hear)—and that was the very ground upon which he was opposed to this Bill. Supposing that the present Corporations had been injuriously exclusive, was that any reason why they should be supplanted by another system much more exclusive in its operation ?—( Hear, hear.) Would not the fifty-four new Corporations, with all the sore ness and hitter recollection of what they considered a long series of oppressions, retaliate by the unanimous .adoption of that very system of exclusiveness of which themselves so much complained. He contended that it would be impossible for any Protestants to obtain admission into one of these fifty-four Corporations, which would become so many rendezvous for the agitators who calculated on rendering them completely subser vient to their purposes. He did not mean to speak this at all o ff ens i v ely, but he could not help apprehending that this mea sure would increase that influence, and add. too, to another power which was overspreading Ireland—he meant a power of a reli gious nature.—( Hear.) It was fearful to contemplate the ad ditional facilities that would be afforded for agitation, which could only terminate in England, as well as Ireland, calling fora repeal of the Union, which in his opinion would be equivalent to a dismemberment of the empire. There was the greatest possible difference between the principle as applied to England and to Ireland. In the former it was the diffusion of a most valuable principle, in the latter it was a concentra tion of power in hands by which it was sure to be used for the most dangerous purpose!. The course which the Government were about to adopt with respect to the Irish Corporations was precisely that which James the Second was anxious to carry into effect in his plea of remodelling the Corporations. The p'an rccomuicnded in the motion which he had the honour of s:conding, provided amply for the admiaistratiou of justice, for an adequate police, local courts, paving, watching, &c. _( Hear, hear.) He denied that the Corporations of Ireland were obnoxious to the charge so frequently brought against them, of abuse of the public property. True, they had—as in dividuals had done—squandered their own property ; but, in the lengthened investigation that took place into all the abuses from 1310 -to the present time, comprising a period of five centuries, he could discover only two eases (those of Lime rick and Gelivay)—and the Report did not pretend to say there were more—in which there had been what could be called a direct breach of trust.—( Hear.) On the other hand, he begged to refer the House to the case of Tuam—as reported by the Commissioners—for an example of the manner in which this " only immaculate" corporation had managed its funds. They would there find that a property yielding 40011 a year was let by the Catholic corporation for 2501., and 501. given as a donation towards the building of the Catholic chapel.—(Hear, hear -) But this part of the ques tion was not confined to the use or abuse of corporation pro perty; for it should be borne in mind by the House, that they were to have the power of taxing to a very great extent ; and what limits did the House suppose :a corporation, 'composed exclusively of one sect, would put upon this power ?—( Hear.) The power of assessment would be placed in the hands of the a householders—while the 10/. householders, almost exclu sively Protestants, would have to pay them. On what prin ciple did Government act when they proposed to give the power of taxation to a body as exclusive on the one side as that now holding the coiporations was on the other ?—( Hear.) Or the thirteen places to which he had alluded as having been omitted from this Bill, eight were places in which there would be a preponderance of Protestants. No man who had the peace of Ireland at heart could contemplate without dread the carrying into operation such a measure as the present. Lord MO RPETH said that one thing did not seem to him to be very clearly made out, but which had struck hi:n since the introduction of this Bill into the House—namely, that his Noble and Right Hon. predecessors in the office which he had then the honour of filling—that the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth and the Noble Members for North and South Lancashire, must have gained from their official re sidences in Ireland, such an insight into the whole consetitu tion of these Irish corporations, that they remained satisfied that nothing less would be sufficient than their entire destruc tion, and that the Legislature should obliterate every record and trace of them from the land which they had so long en cumbered and disgraced.—(Cheers.) With reference to to the observations made, he would say, that the Bill had been more sharply attacked than attentively considered. The Bill, however, before the House, as well as the amendment, pos sessed this common excellence—namely, that both proposed to sweey away that mass of mischief which existed in the Irish corporations, and which, for so long a period, had pro duced such discord and unseemly results in that country. True, these plans proposed to go to work by different modes, but in both it was proposed that there sln be a rigorous use of the pruning hook for what was bad ; but the Government, in their plan, considered what. was Conservative, and pro posed to introduce a more happy system in the place of the present one—a plan free from that imputation which gentle- . men opposite were most anxious to disclaim, but which they had themselves neglected, for they proposed to lay the axe to root and branch, and sweep away the whole of the corpora rations in truth and earnestnesss.—( Loud cheers.) This was the distinct and narrow ground of difference between the Go vernment and their opponents. The difference which gave rise to the amendment seemed to arise from the mode of ap pointing sheriffs for counties of cities and towns. This, he admitted, was a very fair subject for consideration. It had been the object of those who framed the Bill—he believed in the 54th clause—to subject the appointment of sheriffs to the control of the Crown, and when the proper time arrived the provisions of the clause would be open to examination, as to whether they had made it sufficiently clear and direct to affect the end in view. Another difference between the supporters and opponents of the Bill was, whether the chief functionaries of these corporations, who were elected by the town councils, which councils were themselves chosen by the entire consti tuency of the town, were to be allowed to act as magistrates in their corporate towns. Another difference arose as to the management of the public property of these corporations, for which the Government proposed, that the town councils should have the control and management of the property of the several towns. ' The Noble Lord proposed that it should be entrusted to commissioners appointed by the Crown. He confessed that he heard this novel proposal to grant confidence to his Majesty's Government, with some satisfaction ; for although the Noble Lord merely proposed that the commissioners appointed by the Treasury should have the temporal control of these funds, he (Lord Morpeth) saw that the proposition did not betray, on the part of gentlemen opposite, that want of confidence in the Government which some of their supporters would have it be lieved existed. It would be recollected that all the purposes of paving, lighting, watching, and cleaning the corporate towns were provided for by an existing Act, and the Noble Lord proposed to leave to an elected body, chosen by a class of per sons possessed of the lowest qualification stated in the Bill, the control of the funds raised for those purposes.—( Hear, hear.) When the Noble Lord talked of the evils of allowing a.town council to appoint, an armed police, he seemed to have indulged in some exaggerations, and not to have attended to what was proposed in the Bill. The police force in these towns, to be appointed by the town councils, was only similar to the nomination of watchmen and constables in the English Corporations. The Noble Lord was pleased to call this an armed police in Ireland, and to look with some degree of alarm at their appointment; but he (Lord Morpeth) begged to inform the Noble Lord, that the town councils would have nothing to do with the armed police. This was never in tended by the Government ; for he had laid a Bill on the table giving the Lord Lieutenant a greater control than ha ever had over that force; and enabling him to issup regula tions for the government of that force in counties, or coun ties of cities, arid towns. He also perceived another diffi culty in the two schemes which he bad passed over, and which had also been passed over by the Noble Lord, namely, the mode of dealing with the freemen: ln conformity with the shape in which the English Bill stood, and in conformity with the expressed wishes of Gentlemen opposite on former occasions, it was proposed that the said freemen of the cor porate towns in Ireland should stand on the same footing as the freemen of the English Coeporations.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever the Noble Lord might propose to do with the freemen, he knew not, but the Government proposed that the present freemen should be continued in the possession of the right they now enjoyed. The Noble Lord did not state how the present freemen were to be dealt with, nor did he say how he and those with whom he acted proposed to deal with the inchoate privileges and rights of freemen yet unborn, about which they had heard so much last session when the English Bill was before the House.—(Hear, hear.) He should be glad to hear some explanation from the Noble Lord on this part of the subject. Before lie proceeded further, he wished to observe on this point that he was glad to see the Right Hon. and Learned Recorder of the city of Dublin in the House, because it had been stated on a former occasion that his Majesty's Ministers, because they knew that they should be safe from the terror of the talents of that Hon. Gentleman, had contrived to postpone the second reading of the Bill._ *( Hear, hear, and laughter.) In reference to this subject the Learned Gentleman, on presenting the Lord Mayor of Dublin elect for the last year, addressed the following observations to the Lord Lieutenant :—" Neither, my Lord, am I EO unrea sonable as to contend that where any great organic alteration has been made in the constitution there should not be a gra dual and harmonious adaptation of all its parts and members to the existing condition of that country.. I do, however, earnestly deprecate intrusion under the guise of reformation, upon the part of the corporation, while I am of opinion that they should allow and cheerfully submit to any change in their form and constitution which was reasonable, and calculated to give general satisfaction, provided always that it preserves the substance and the essential influence of their ancient charter. I do at the same time feel aware in approaching the defects of such a body, that a reverence is due to their great antiquity, their deeds, their courage, and faithful services, which have shed a lustre round the memory of their predecessors." The freemen, then, who were here so highly eulogized, were as strongly condemned by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for North Lancashire ( Lord Stanley), who was ever their per severing foe—( Loud cheers)—and who proposed to disfran chise them in the Irish Reform Bill, as he now recommended that they should be deprived of their corporate freedom.— ( Hear, hear.) When the Irish Reform Bill was before Par liament, the Hon. Recorder for Dublin then said, " In the city of Dublin there are no less than 4,000 or 5,000 freemen, whose rights must merge in the constituency of 10,090 which it is proposed to establish. Of that increase I do not complain. What I complain of is, that in England the rights of the free men have been preserved in perpetuity—in Ireland they are to cease with the existence of those persons who now possess them. This injury will offer a direct insult to the people of Ireland. It is an insult not merely to the freemen of Dublin, but in all parts of Ireland." The Hon. and Learned Gentle man, in a subsequent part of his speech, stated that the pro position was a stigma cast on the party of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and that it would lead to their supporting the re peal of the Union. Ile said, " That party has constantly op posed the repeal of the Union, but I now tell the Right Hon. Geatlemhn that all his measures tend to forward a serious change of opinion which is taking place upon that subject. I verily be lieve that before long almost the whole Protestant population will call out for a repeal of the Union."--( Cheers.) He (Lord Morpeth) was of opinion that neither Catholic nor Protestant would be anxious for the attainment of repeal, if they were sure of equal civil rights and privileges, without regard to religious distinctions.—(Loud cheers.) In remarking on the two schemes before the H ouse , h e w i s h e d t o guard Hon. Gentlemen against being misled by any distorted views of the Bill, which, with great skill and ingenuity had been conjured Right eilthigt Icon. Hon.ht 13 „r Member oa e twould for'T o a o m t wortli . wilfully Hd depart wasartfrom sure t u l p iat b y the the the truth, but he had mixed up different clauses of the Bill, and had suffered one part to glide into another in a manner calculated to lead to erroneous views, as had been clearly shown by his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor - of the Ex chequer a few days since.—( Hear, hear.) He would not go back to• former details, but he wished to remind the House that the towns and cities of Ireland, to which it was proposed in the Bill to give a separate commission of the peace, and which were to be nlled by judges appointed by the Crown, were only eleVen in number. The counties . of cities and bo roughs, in which, sheriffs were authorised to summon jtu'ies, THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDA Y, MARCH 8, 1836. were only eight in number and with respect to the appoint ment of s'Aeritis in these places, he had already addressed some observations to the House. The towns in which the town clerks were to summon juries were only three in num ber. With reference to this subject, he admitted, with the Noble Lord, that if injustice was done in consequence of this nroposcd arrangement, it was quite immsterial however small the number of towns was in which it was perpetrated, but that a stop should be put Co it.--( Hear, hear.) He admit ted that it might be quite regular then to propose some alte rations in the provisions of the Bill ; but he contended that it was not within the scope and extent of the rules which should govern them in going into committee, to call for the appli cation of an entire new principle, or to-demand a new ma chinery in that stage of the proceedings.—( Hear, hear.) The lion. and Learned Gentleman had complained that more boroughs and towns were not included in the schedules. He stated that 117 corporate cities and towns had been vi sited by the Commissioners, and the number of places men tioned is the schedules to the Bill did not exceed 54. The lion. and Learned Gentleman, before he had passed tile cen sure which be did, should have read in the Report the rea sons which had governed the Commissioners and the framers of the Bill in not introducing more places. They were told that, out of the 117 corporate towns inquired into by the Com missioners, there were 22 places which had no Municipal Cor poration, and there were 24 other places in which the Com missioners were unable to discover any remains of corpora tions which existed in 1800, and eleven were in a state of doubtful existence. The Bill of last year contained the list of sixty-seven places, and it rested on the essential prin ciples of the English Bill. The Noble Lord did not seem to be aware of the difference between the Bill of last year and the present one ; indeed, from the language he had used, it would appear that he had not diligently studied the Irish Bill, nor had the Honourable and Learned Gentleman consulted the provisions of the English Bill. They did not propose in this Bill to incorporate any towns not now in pos ssssion of charters. Allusion on this ground had been made to Antrim, but he would ask, was the Right Hon. Baronet prepared to prove that Antrim was not in possession of a cor poration? If this could be shown, he should not object to the exclusion of that city from the schedule. They had been told that such towns as Middleton and Belturbet should not have been included in the Bill, while others of more importance were left out ; but be would ask whether it was the object o f the party opposite to incorporate any of these places ? He would, however, observe on this point, that they had left these two boroughs in the Bill, because they found them in actual possession of corporate rights, and of corporate pro perty. If they had not found these towns in actual possession of corporate property, he admitted that they would have been fair 'cases for exclusion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite had complained of the exclusion of Newry and Dun garvon ; but he (Lord Morpeth) was sure that his Hon. and Learned Friend would not have consented to their exclusion, if there had not been good reason. He need not say that his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, standing in the relation which he did to the latter of these places, would have been ex tremely glad to have done any thing which he consistently could, and which would be agreeable to the inhabitants of the place. He repeated, that for some good reasons, they were not included in the schedules of the Bill, and these were the same why neither Manchester nor Birmingham were inserted in the English Bill. With reference to the mode suggested for the appropriation of the corporate funds, be would only ob serve that Hon. Gentlemen opposite attempted in the present proposition to surpass his (the Ministerial) side of the House in the science of a ppropriation.—(Loud cheers.) With res pect, however to incorporation; he would beg to observe that there was a clause at the end of the Bill to enable the King to grant charters of incorporation to towns. They had not proposed to place the names of a number of large towns of Ireland in the schedules, because they had not inserted the names of towns in the schedules of the English Bill, which were not then in the actual possession of charters. This plan had been adopted after mature consideration, as the best that could be acted upon. The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman who spoke last complained of the burdens that this Bill would in flict on Irish corporate towns, and that the property of these places on the average did not exceed 1201. a year. He (Lord Morpeth) thought that by prudent management it would ibe found to amount to much more than that sum. With res pect also to the compulsory payments in the towns for corpo rate offices, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman shotild recol lect that from the nature of the of f ices the salaries would be small in the lesser boroughs. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman also complained that the power of taxa . - tion would be left in the possession of the 51. householders. But did he forget that that class of persons at present had the power of electing commissioners for levying compulsory rates for paving, watching, and lighting towns ? If the Honourable and Learned Gentleman supposed that it was likely that this class of persons would conspire to lay a heavier rate on their richer neighbouTs than they themselves paid, he ( Lord Morpeth) would only say, in reply, that he did not think it possible that the class of persons who composed the holders of the 51. franchise would for one moment lend themselves to such a project. Indeed, they could not refer to a single instance of such an attempt, and they had superabundant evidence on the other side. The' Hon. and Learned Mcm her made some allusions to the Corporation of Tuam, which was composed of Catholics, with the exception of one Member, and that this Corporation had mortgaged its property to the trustees of a Catholic chapel in that town. He did not wish to defend the Corporation of Tuam, on the contrary, he objected to it as a close body. The Corporation accounts were open to nobody, and there was no efficient control over the ex penditure. When, however, the Hon. and Learned" Gentleman brought forward this case of the conduct of a Catholic Cor poration, be (Lord Morpeth) would, as a'set off, refer to the conduct of the Corporation of Londonderry. The Commis sioners in their report state, " that a new set of bells was pur chased and set up by the Corporation for the Cathedral of Derry in 1812, at a cost of 1,5911. 18s., and that the Corpo ration contributed, in 1823, towards the repair of Derry Cathe dral the sum of 1,6001."—( Ilear, hear.) This, then, was an instance of appropriation for purposes which were not for the benefit of all the inhabitants of the town, but for the advantage of a particular class. This was a case in which there was the same misappropriation of the funds as in Tuam, and equally required a remedy ; for he contended, in these cases, what was good for Peter was good for Paul.—( Hear, and laughter. ) All that he required was, that the inhabitants of a town should have the administration of their own aff tirs, and that those who contributed to the local taxation should have control over its distribution ; by doing this he thought they would have an efficient check against its misappropriation. He trusted that the House would adhere to the plan originally proposed by his Majesty's Government, and not suffer itself to be carried away by the more revolutionary gale which blew from the other side of the House—( Cheers)—or be influenced by the spirit of the Noble Lord, which was so full of allusions to ravages and de luges.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire, said the other evening, that he thought it was to little purpose to inquire into the object of forming the present system of local government in Ireland, but he ( Lord Morpeth) thought it would be still more useless to inquire into the ob ject in forming many of the regulations in the early Irish Cor porations. But from all the information that he could glean respecting those early times—and he was aware that the sub ject was one of great obscurity—the power of choosing the municipal officers who exercised control over local affairs was vested in the inhabitants at large of those places. They had been told by the Noble Lord that in Ireland, in making their ar rangements for local government, they should recollect how much party animosity existed there, but lid was quite sure that this measure, if carried into effect, would not make those feel ings go further ; on the contrary it would tend essentially to mitigate them, by giving the people something else to discuss than differences arising from religious grounds.—( Cheers.) By pursuing this course interests were created which would be constantly discussed, and which in consequence of their nature would be more moderately treated.—( Hear, hear.) He was satisfied of this, becsuse the subjects likely to be discussed had a settled tendency to allay soreness, and instead of matters of excitement, they would be sittin g down to the every day business of life, in which it would be very difficult for men to exhibit their violent party feelings which now prevailed.— ( Cheers.) Ho thought that there were also other grounds that made out a system of local Government, as was then pro. posed, more necessary in Ireland than in England and Scot land. Dublin was not so disproportioned. in size and wealth to London as the towns in the provinces of Irelaud were to those in England. In Dublin there was something analogous to London, bat in Ireland there were no such towns as Man chester, Leeds, Birmigham, or Glasgow, nor such a multitude of market towns as in England, which were a source of riches to the surrounding agricultural districts.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that there was much in Ireland which made it desir able sn t e hg t e o r oc cE sd t t r ilt a i o e e andcoepfrrttoalp,i the constabulary sc b eo u dn s i st n itia e eb s s ußl in ialrl ytof .cff Dublin ce—c t o ar BillLondon.er taiwnseaahel del dif ferent con stitution nne: regarded as a bugbear oteuhcliids f l oßb ,t r s eic t iaelas y coh e tmfec a year, but coauhl b dip t c i aoce t which, ldhit:oba acvtnooh uuotl ruhd s ega. e dth e tt m polr i tnh l ta adoptl: • regarded by gentlemen opposite this year as a Godsen ' tl.as as i s n s(ptrliiltneucat principle Ipne h roi e onf a fe r ti . hp ) li principle centralization a l sr t i this Bill. In the counties in Ireland, therefore, they proposed that that the nomination and controul of the police force of being entrusted to ir r e s p onsible grand juries, should instead be left to those who would be a cc ou ntabl e for their conduct. Th e y proposed that the co ntroul of the unar med police in towns should be left not to irresponsible arid self-elected persons, but to responsible authorities, chosen by those who were most in terested in their good conduct, andevho must suffer by any mal-administration.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore he did not propose to abandon the principle of centralization in Ireland, when it could be carried into effect advantageously; but at the same time, when he found that it was more bene ficial, he proposed that the inhabitants of towns should have controul over their own concerns.—( Hear, and cheers.) The chief reason for refusing to adopt the amendment was, that it asserted as a principle the incapacity—(Cheers) __on the part of the people of Ireland, to exercise the rights and privileges and duties, now so advantageously performed by their more favoured fellow subjects in England and Scotland.— ( Much cheering.) The Noble Lord (F. Egerton) refrained from alleging any religious grounds as reasons for exclusion ; but his Noble Friend the Member for North Lancashire (Lord Stanley), on a former night, certainly did allege religious grounds for a basis of . having a difference. While he ad mitted the conscientious feelings of his Noble Friend, he could not help doubting the soundness of his views.—( Cheering. ) Perhaps, in less e nli g htened da y s the y mi g ht res ort to this species of argument ; but it was hardly to be expected that in the present day, in the nineteenth century, after the Catholic Relief Bill—( Hear, hear.)—had been passed, and after the Reform Bill had passed, that it could be seriously admitted that the Protestant religion could be endangered by any s p ec i es of monopoly which could be enacted tinder this Bill.—( Hear.) Such a reason to disqualify the large mass of the people of Ireland from equal liberty, lie must wholly repudiate.—( Hear. ) He did not doubt, from what Gentlemen opposite said, that there would be a large influx of Tories into these town councils, unless they wished to sacrifice all those things which they charged the Reformers with endeavouring to sub vert. He had only further to state, what indeed was admitted on all sides, that the system which prevailed under the self-elected irresponsible Corporations, which he was loath to call Pro testant, must be got rid of ; but he trusted that they would hesitate before they had recourse to such a violent remedy as was proposed on the other side.—( Loud cheers.) Mr. Sergeant JACK SON said, the , fourth section of the Irish Bill contained a quantity of matter not to be found in the corresponding section of the English Bill. Some most important matter had here been introduced into the new Bill, and he had not heard from any Noble or Hon. Member of the opposite side of the House, either on this or a former occa sion on which the,subject was brought forward, any reasons for such a departure in the Irish Bill from the provisions or princi ples of the English measure. The Hon. and Learned Member here read the words of the fourth section of the Irish Bill, a great part of which he said was not omitted in the_ English Act. In this clause a most remarkable word had been introduced, for which no reason had been assigned. He alluded to the word, trusts-•' that such bodies corporate shall be invested with all lawful rights, trusts, &c., save only and except those vested in the charitable trustees of such bo roughs," &c. Now, in the city of Cork, for instance, there existed a trust of a considerable extent, but not of the nature of a charity. This trust, however, by the provisions of the Irish Bill, would be transferred to the town-council and corpo ration of the city. This was a departure from the principle of the English Act, for which no reason had been given. It would appear, however, that the framers of the present Bill wished to proceed on a more liberal principle than in the English Bill : that was to say, to comprehend more places in Ireland, to set up more boroughs in that country than were thought of in England. There was no instance in the English Act of the revival of an extinct or defunct corporation, but in the Irish Bill there .were several such instances. The. new Bill, too, omitted several towns, in which on its own prin• ciples, corporations should be constituted. There was fur instance, the borough of Newry. with a population o 13,065 persons, with limits of from half a mile to two miles in extent, with quarter sessions held in it twice 'a year, and petty sessions once a week, &c. The Irish Corporation Bill of last session included this borough in the list of places to which Corporations should be given. The Bill of the present session had no mention of it. Why was this omission ? Again, there was the respectable town of Downpatrick, with a population of 5,000 persons ; the assize town of the county, with quarter sessions twice a year, and petty sessions once a week, having within its precincts the county gaol, and returning one Mem ber to Parliament ; this town, included in the Bill of last year, was omitted in the present Bill. Yet at the same time the small town of Bangor was included in the present Bill. Let the House contrast the circumstances of the respective towns. He had stated the population of the two omitted towns of Newry and Downpatrick ; the included borough of Bangor bad a population of but 2,741 persons, and its limits were ex tremely narrow • its whole Corporation consisted of but twelve persons, all of them of the family of Ward. Perhaps this very circumstance, however, was that which influenced the in clusion of the borough in the present Bill.---(Hear, hear.) The whole income of the borough was 601. a year. Why then should this miserable little town be inserted, while the county town of Down was excluded, was to him (Mr. Sergeant Jack son) a mystery. Then, again, there was the miserable little town of Middleton, with 2,034 inhabitants. This, forsooth, was to have a Corporation continued to it, though the Irish Corpora tion Commissioners expressly stated that they were totally at a loss to discover any reason why .any Corporation should exist in this borough, that it was a Corporation without privileges and without emolument.—( Hear, hear.) This miserable place was to have a Corporation, though the privilege was denied to the respectable town of Mallow, county of Cork, with a population of 4,129 persons. The English Act made it necessary, in order to qualify persons for office in the new Corporations, that they should have been in occupation of certain premises within the borough for nearly three years preceding. The corresponding section of the Irish Bill only required occupation for about six months preceding ; yet no reason had been assigned for this most extraordinary discre pancy between the two measures. The Right Hon. and Learned. Gentleman had ingeniously stated two points, in which he admitted there was a difference between the measures —namely, as to aldermen, and as to a summary re medy in cases of malversation of corporate funds. These, however, were far from being the only distinctions between the Bills. To give an additional instance in a very remarkable word inserted in the Irish Bill, but omitted in the English Act--the` Irish Bill (6th section) stated the requisite occu pation to be of a " house, warehouse, counting-house, office, or shop ;" now this word " office" was not to be found in the English Act : why, then, had it been introduced in the present Bill ?—( Hear, hear.) It must be obvious to the House that if the occupation of an " office" was to confer a qualification for the holding of municipal dignity, there would not be a room in any borough in Ireland which would not be dignified into an office, and as such be held as qualifying to a municipal office. Here there was an essential difference. —(Hear.) It was a curious thing, too, that not only was this word " office" not to be found in the English Act, but it was not inserted in the Irish Bill introduced last session. Another -circumstance worthy of attention was, that while in the Eng lish Act the qualification was conferred with reference to the payment of poor rate, there was no corresponding provision in reference to qualification in the Irish Bill. It was true that there was no poor-rate in Ireland, but what was the qualifica tion to depend on in that country ? The occupation in the larger towns of a house and premises, within the prescribed limits, of the yearly value of 10/. Now, even in so consider able a city as that of Cork, with a population of more than 100,000 persons, if this Bill were to pass into law, there wculd not be a single labourer in or within seven miles of the city, occupying a house, not worth perhaps 101. a year, but with some bits of land about it to make up the sum Of 10/., but would be entitled to the privileges conferred by the Bill. He would call the attention of the House, then, to the species of burgesses to be supplied by the operation of this measure. He saw one of the Hon. Members for Cork opposite him, and he could inform the House, that of the constituents who had re turned that Hon. Member to Parliament, not fewer than six hundred could not write their own names.—( Hear.) Yet as the Parliamentary electors and the corporation electors were to be the same, these very persons who could not write their own names, and a large portion of whom could not speak a word of English, were to have the power of electing the new town council and municipal officers. Nothing similar existed in the English Act. There was another important matter. In England the lists of electors were prepared and furnished by the overseers of the poor. What was the arrangement of the Irish Bill in this respect? Although in Ireland there were no overseers of the poor, yet there were persons who held situations which would enable them to do the duty effectually. The Irish Bill, how eve ir.irovided that after the first year , in wh ich the lists were to be prepared by the churchwardens, they should be prepared by the town- clerk. How this task was to be performed by the unlucky town-clerks, in addition to the other multifarious and heavy duties imposed upon them by the Bill, he (Mr. Ser geant Jackson) was quite at a loss to understand. There was another point of more importance than any he bad alluded to. The Noble Lord said that Government was to have the ap pointment of the police in the boroughs, and the Bill only pro vided that the town-council should superintend the watching of the respective boroughs. Now, in point of fact, this borough " watch," according to the Bill, would be the armed police of the municipality ; for whom the Bill provided arms and accou trements, and whom the Bill actually denominated police. All Acts which gave Government the appointment of police in the boroughs were repealed by the Bill, and it at the same time conferred upon the town council the power virtually of appoint ing their own police, and of excluding from the boroughs an y police appointed by Government. This was a most formidable provision. There was in Ireland a very large establishment of the Roman Catholic hierarchy and clergy, comprehending archbishops, bishops,' and the other dignitaries of the diocese, and a body of parochial clergy amounting to upwards of three thousand, besides various bodies of religious orders spread throughout Ireland.__( Hear, hear.) Here was a large body of men who made it their business to interfere in all the elections which took place in Ireland, and that in a most in fluential manner indeed.—( Hear, hear,) He ( Mr. Sergeant Jackson) would venture to say, that there had not been a single election in any borough in Ireland in which the power and influence of this body had not been materially brought to bear. If, then, after abolishing the existing Corporations in that country—and so far he would go heart and hand with the Government—if, after abolishing them, Ministers were to re construct Corporations in these boroughs upon the plan of this Bill, he ( Mr.. Sergeant Jackson) would venture to say that a more prolific source of turmoil. confusion, bitter religious animosity and strife, could not be devised by any human being.—(hear, hear.) In what county of England, he would ask, had there ever been brought up at an assizes thirty-six persons on trial for murder ? Yet at the present assizes for the county of Tipperary, not, fewer than that number were ar raigned on that frightful charge.—( Hear, hear.) Since 1829, in the same county of Tipperary, there had not been less than 700 homicides.—( Hear, hear.) He was convinced that the influence exercised by the body he had mentioned, was to give considerable extent to that which brought about this ''rightful state of things; and he was sure that there was nothing more calculated to perpetuate that state of timings than the passing the proposed Bill into a law. In this state of things, it was next to madness to talk of legislating for Ireland on precisely the same principles as for England. ( Hear, hear.) The effect of the Bill would be to transfer the power and influence incidental to the Corporations in Ireland, from the hands of those who had hitherto held it, to the hands of the Roman Catholics of that country ; and not so much to the people in general, as to a certain portion of the people. One grea t reason for apprehension, in referenc e to the bod y of whom he (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) had spoken was, that they were, as it were, a distinct race—unmarried, and men who had given no hostages to the State. The Right Hon. and Learned Member had declared that there wa.; no danger to be appre hended from these sinister influences at the borough elections: 'and hail said, that he recollected no instance of religious in fluences being brought to bear in ele ctions. Now he (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) had lived a good many years in Ireland, and had seen much of eleCtions, and he could conscientiously say that he never knew of a case where religious and political feelings intermixed, had not very influentially intervened in the progress of elections in that country. The Hon. and Learned Sergeant proceeded to remark, that the Right and Learned Attorney- General for Ireland had referred to Dungar von as one place, among others, where a Protestant gentleman had been returned to Parliament by a Roman Catholic consti tuency in preference to a Roman Catholic, and had relied upon this fact as a proof that the Roman Catholics acted upon no exclusive principle. Now he ( Mr. Sergeat Jackson) would defy the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman to show that in this, or any other case, a Roman Catholic constituency had selected a Protestant candidate, unless the latter were a pledged Repealer—( Hear, bear)—and were pledged, besides, to all that his Roman Catholic constituency demanded of him. It appeared to him (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) that a Pro testant returned bider such circumstances was a much more dangerous foe to the Protestant Church in Ireland than a Roman Catholic. With reference to this part of the subject, the Hon. Gentleman referred to addresses delivered by the Hon and Learned Member for Dublin to the people of Lime rick and New Ross, in which he denounced those who favoured tithes as " traitors to Ireland ;" and enjoined the people in those words, " Let no man deal with them—let -no woman deal with them."—( A laugh, and cries of " Hear.") This was a species of the toleration exhibited in Ireland. He begged to direct the attention of the House to the report of of the Intimidation Committee, which sat last Session. It would be seen in the evidence delivered before that committee that the Roman Catholic priests harangued the people from their altars to prevent them from voting in favour of the Knight of Kerry, and not only were they intimidated by threats, but if they did not conform, their lives and property were in danger. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dub lin would not tolerate even neutrality in Ireland ; he denounced every man who would not go the full length. " Neutrality," he said, "was a crime at that period—every man who was a neetral must be a Cumberlander." The Hon. and Learned Gentleman ehen referred to several instances of the interfe rence of the Roman Catholic clergy in the Irish elections. —( Hear, hear, hear.) The Honourable and Learned Gentleman next read some extracts from the address of Father Keogh to his congregation from the altar of the chapel at Leighlin-bridge, on Sunday, the 14th of June : " Good people, you must aaswer at the election that you vote for fit and discreet men to represent the county of Carlow in Parliament. Is Bruen a discreet man ? What, Bruen ! Orange Bruen 1 He who always opposed Catholic Emanci pation, till it was extorted from the Government, and his op position could be no longer any injury to you. Is it Bruen, who said in Parliament (the only time he did not give a silent vote) that the priests instigated the people to commit murder and all kinds of outrage ; and that till the priests were exter minated, the country would not be fit for a Christian to live in. Is this a fit and discreet person to represent the county of Car low—this hard-hearted tyrannical landlord ? Well, what of Kavanagh ? Is he a fit person to represent you? Why he is dead ! so the Dublin Freeman's Journal and the Kilkenny Journal say ; but if he is not dead, he is always laid up with the gout.—( Laughter. ) Is this a fit and discreet man to represent the county of Carlow ? Oh, boys, take care and do not perjure yourselves. Why this Bruen always sup ported tithes—blood-guilty tithes—tithes that have mur dered and bayoneted you—( Loud cries of " Hear")—that have dragged you out of your quiet and peaceable beds, and have torn the very sheets and blankets from under you! That have bayoneted you, as they did at Rathcormac and Newtown harry But I tell you, if you gain this election, before the end of the year there will be no such things as tithes; and even now a Bill for the total extinction of tithe laws has passed the second reading of the House of Commons, it only requires a third reading to become the law of the land ; for, as Peel himself said, neither the Lords nor the King dare re fuse what the House of Commons pass into a law. Well, boys, Bruen and Kavanagh, I think you will agree with me, are neither fit, discreet, nor honest men. Vigors is an honest man—(Opposition cheers and laughter)—he who has taken upon himself the people's rights and is determined to protect them. But you know him well enough. We tried to get an Irishman, and applied to several other gentlemen of this county to side with Vigors, but they all refused. An English gentle man, however, has volunteered, Mr. Raphael—( Great laugh ter),—High Sheriff of the City of London, who has plenty of money—(Cheers from the Opposition benches),—and plenty of honesty--( Laughter) ;—vote, then, for Vigors and Raphael, and you will vote for yourselves, your country, your religion, and your God.—(Hear, hear.) Is there any man will - tell me that agitation has done nothing for lie land ? Where are tithes now ? You no longer have to pay tithes, but a pitiful land -tax, and we will soon put an end to that too. The Protestant clergy are now very dif ferent from what they were. They are no longer the fine gen tlemen they were, but are in a sad bobble, and we will make them in a greater hobble ; for instead of bringing up their sons and daughters to be gentlemen and ladies, they will be glad to brin g them up to be farmers and tradesmen like your selves, good people. Boys 1 Vigors and Raphael intend to address you after Mass, and I desire that you will not leave the chapel-yard until you have heard them. These Orange Conservatives are very confident, like the devil when he tempted our Saviour in the wilderness ; but we will strike fear and terror into their hearts on Tuesday. I hope it will not be ne cessary to draw the sword, for I hope the very sight of the scabbard will frighten them. But I tell you, boys, if the Con servatives gain this election—they cannot gain it—but if by perjury, threats, and violence, they do gain it ; if they do trick us out of our representatives on this, as they did at the last election, and be beat, more blood will flow than there is water in the river Barrow.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Come then good people, to the poll at once. I denounce that man who will not come to the poll at once, as one who is tampering with his landlord, as one who is waiting to see on which side the scales may turn, and I will suspect that man to be a renegade and an apostate I" Such were the opinions he could furnish of the toleration of the Roman Catholic party. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was anxious to have tools of the kind this Bill would supply him with, that he might carry on the work of agitation over the whole of Ireland.—(Opposi tion cheers.) Mr. Sergeant WO ULFE said—With regard to several of the facts alluded to by Hon. and Learned Member, they are of such a nature that, if proved to be true, I am not prepared to justify. This is not, however, the time for the trial of such issues, which would distract the House from the investigation of the question before it.—( Hear, hear.) I am not going to justify the excesses which are the conse quence of excitement during elections. If, however, it be contended that the prevalence of sectarian feelings amongst the Roman Catholics of Ireland incapacitates them from a par ticipation in the benefits of a Municipal Corporation Bill assi milated to that of England, I will take issue upon that point, and I will undertake to prove to the House that no such feel ings or motives can with justice be laid to the charge of the Roman Catholic body of Ireland. I deny that in any instance since 1829 the Roman Catholics of Ireland have acted as a religious party. They never pursued any object of a secta rian character, or in which the Protestants of the empire, or at least the Protestants of Ireland, were not equally concerned with them. If they haVe been excited, their excitement has been directed to objects of imperial or national concern.—(Loud cheers.) They devoted all their enereies to the assertion of the principles of civil and religious liberty.—( Hear, hear.) They have struggled w ith the Liberal Protestants of Ireland, of England, and of Scotland to accomplish Parliamentary Reform, and all the great consequences which it involved.—( Cheers.) It is to their excitement that you are indebted for the attainment of that Reform. I will not deny that they were powerfully ex cited ; but the people of England have no cause to complain of that-4 Hear, hear.) They now enjoy the fruits of that ex citement. It was directed to. the promotion of purposes not peCuliar to the Catholic, but common to him with every Pro testant and Dissenter in the empire.—( Hear.) Sir, I 'am not prepared to justify every act done under the influence of that excitement. But this much lam prepared to say, and to prove, that the excitement was the result of the unconstitutional claim put forward by the holders of property in Ireland to dispose of the suffrages of their tenants as they thought fit.—( Hear, hear.) They claimed the votes of their tenants as services incidental to their tenure—( Hear, hear)—as part and parcel of their seignorial rights.--( Hear.) Against this flagrant usur pation the freeholders of Ireland revolted.—( Hear, hear.) All the rights of property were put in force against them to reduce them to subjection. Hence the collision that took place. Of the two plans before the House I need scarcely say that that proposed on this side of the House is prima facie entitled to the preference. The people of England and Scotland, considering a plan of Municipal Reform based upon popular principles to be conducive to their interests, or calculated to gratify their local pride, desired th e establishment of such a plan among them, and they obtained it. The people of Ireland, - considering that it would pro mote their interests also, and gratify their feelings, desire it likewise. Ido not mean to say that the will of any portion of this empire is of necessity to prevail over the judgment of the united Legislature of the entire ; but I do say that in matters of local concerts it is entitled to paramount attention. I will go farther, and say that if in any portion of the empire an in stitution be established which is regarded in the nature of a boon or privilege, and that the extension of it is desired by another portion of the empire, the bare will of the portion so desiring it does establish a presumptive case for its extension, which nothing short of the clearest and the strongest reason can displace.—(Hear.) - The common right must be ousted by considerations clear and cogent.--( Hear.) These sur mises will not suffice.—( Hear, hear.) These allegations of unfitness without proof—apprehensions vaguely or vainly en tertained will not suffice. The evil apprehended from ac knowledging the common right must be great as well as cer tain. —( Hear, hear.) Now let me ask what is the evil alleged as likely to result from the Bill of my Right Hon. Friend, which is to justify that which, unjustified, will be both an injury and an affront ?--( Hear, hear, hear.) It has been said by all the Hon Members who have spoken on the other side, that the effect of the Bill will be to transfer from the hands of the Protestants into the hands of the Catholics the power incident to the corporations. Sir, I maintain that the principle of the Bill is such that it is impossible that it can take the power with which it deals out of the hands of those who ought to have it, or to place it in the hands of those who are not entitled to it.—( Hear, hear.) Ido not care whether the hands that lose it are Protestants, or whether the hands that gain it are Catholics ; but this I know, that under the operation of this Bill, the persons rightfully entitled to it will acquire it. The principle of the Bill is to distribute the power by a civil qualification.—( Hear, hear.) Wherever that qualification is, there the power w ill be. Wherever that qualification is wanting, there the power will not be.— ( Hear.) The Bill takes no heed as to how many of the qua lified shall be found in the one church or in the other. It does not attempt to maintain the balance of power between sects, but to break up the classification altogether, and to an nex power to that to which by nature it is incident. Sir, this principle was recognized by the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem ber for Tamworth on the first reading of this Bill.—( Hear.) Ile acknowledged that it was neither just nor expedient, nor in modern times practicable, to distribute power on any other principle.—( Hear ' hear.) In making this acknowledgment , he merely recognised the great principle of the Bill of 1829, which disposed of and scattered among the people all the functions of the state, by annexing them to civil qualifications without reference to creed.—( Hear, hear.) This is not only the principle of that great law, but the principle of a still higher—the law of nature.—(Hear, hear.) Nature has an nexed power to the elements which constitute civil qualifica tion.—(Hear' hear.) You may do vio l e n c e t o n ature , and seperate legal power from those elements—but. nature will avenge the wrong, and restore the balance.—( Loud cheers.) She will more than compensate for the legal power you with hold by the morbid energy of passion,—( Hear, hear.) The _...".• ~.....----.---..... - i ,f 0' ,f not he placed hliztolmifierall:niatun.:nlmoo power which this Bill frives is the country at isrge. is to be given to the popu a i the: towns Now, that population. differs from that of lace, country at large in two material respects. In the IPria the the to w o ns, a t n e d s t a b n e t a s r a o f rn l u r e e l ; n ; adrgaroer proportion prhi cip al t congregated oth e lie inhabitants than they do in the country at large. In so . ; of the country districts the Roman Catholics arc NO to . l e _ 60 to 1; 20 to 1 to ti.e Protestants. In Dublin and other large towns they are scarcely 3 to 1, and these Protestant • again, form a much larger proportion of the householder s, than the Roman Catholics do.—(Cries of " Hear , hear.") Again, it is not only that the Protestants are more name" rous, but the Catholics themselves are more intel li g ent ' , more independent in private circumstances, more out_ n the reach of physical intimidation and influences of an undUot character than their brethren in the country. The Cathob e ,, s in the towns arc mixed up with their Protestant brethren in a" the innumerable rela:ions of social life. Notwithstanding the repeated and vehement contests which have been carried on the city of Dublin, and the several petitions presented to this House against the return of the popular candidates, it has never even been alleged in any of those petitions that any denuneiae tions from the altar or unseemly exhortations were ever resorted to by the Catholic priests of Dublin. So much for the man ner in which the Bill distributes the powers which it cre ates. In 1829, when the Right Hon. Baronet the Mer abc ; for Tamworth introduced the Catholic Bill, he demonstra te that the only principle upon which the Legislature could co!1,- fer popular power was to suffer it to attach itself to civil Val ; fication. Then, Sir, if it be conceded that this is the true and sound principle upon which the authority incident to the Cor porations should be diffused among a people, how can it be made an arguineut against :conferring such authority that tb° greater share of it will fall labs the hands of one religious de,: nomination or of another ; in other words, th a t it would fa" into the hands of those who are entitled to it, and oug ht have it ?—( Hear, hear.) Every argument o f this kind apply with an e fortiori force to every power you have eve r given to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. But our (Ijssel), tons, it is said, render us unfit for the discreet exercise 0K this power. Is it only in that way that the dissec sions of Ireland can be brought to bear upon this subject; for there they are, and cannot be the consequence o f a me" sure . not yet enacted.—( Hear, hear.) B u t if our dis sensions make us unfit for the powers conferred by this 13 1 " they render us more unfit for the more imp or t an t powers %Ol eb you have already given. Our dissensions were not less strong la 1829 than they are now.—(Hear, hear.) The argument proves nothing, for it proves too much. Where has pop:li a ': power ever existed without dissension ?—( Hear.) Dissension!' are inseparable from the exercise of popular p o wer, and th eir existence is the common argument used by every enemy of popular rights in every portion of the world.—(Chee rs. . But it is said that the administration of justice will be ren dered subject to the influence of these dissensions by the 0 P• c " . ration of this Bill. This can be only urged from a gross 1 19 1 conception of its provisions. The Bill g i ves the munieiP a councils the right of appointing no judicial officer whatso ever. The only persons at all connected with the administra tion of justice whom the Bill gi v e s th e C or p ora ti ons the po wer of appointing, are the sheriffs in eight towns, and the Ing er : in the remaind er . Th e nom i nat i on o f s h eri ff s i n t h e se eig ht towns is subject to the approbation of the Lord Lieutenaati. If any additional checks are considered necessary to pro° the improper nomination of these officers, they can be sur e gested .in the Committee, and I h ave no d ou b t t h at suc h is t ' general-anxiety on this side of the House, that everything, connected with the administration of justice should be ' r/° 4 l only pure but unsuspected, su c h suggest i ons w ill b e r eceive with every disposition to give them all due consideration. —(Hear, hear.) Should it be found impracticable to frl t e y provisions which s h a ll secure b eyon d a ll d ou b t the impartin of the Sheriff, if elected by the T own C ounc il s , that may '- reason for placing the nom i na ti on i n t h e h an d s o f the execu tive ' -but is no reason for refusing to establish the Corporations thee; selves. In most cases every Magistrate of the county Wi n n ,. a Justice of the Peace in the Corporation as well as the Maser In all cases the Mayor will be subject to the control exerc6: by the Court of King's Bench over all Justices of the Pe ac l In this respect the old Corporations possessed a power o° , continued to the new—they appointed the judicial officers well as the Mi n i s t er i a l. I a d m i t t h ey a b use d t h e i r t r ust eg i. " giously in the nomination of their Sheriffs—but it is contrail to all sound reasoning to infer, that because this was done by an exclusive party who exercised all their powers for the a le vancement of parti a l i n t eres t s , it w ill b e con tinu e d by the Pe e c ,,P os at large, to their o wn d e t r i men t, w h en i nt r uste d wi th seltsbi e vcrnment. Sir, I cannot b e li eve t h at H on . G en tlemen sincere in their app re h ens i ons f or t h e a d m i n i strat i on of just - t The Hon. and Learned Gentleman resumed his scat amtua loud cheers. Sir HENRY HARDINGE remarked of the 11 ° n. v - cs y Learned Gentleman who had j us t sa t d own , th a t he a . 11Q0.. praiseworthy manlier disclaimed th e allegation that the "ad man Catholics had been influenced i n the manner which h, been stated at elections. He was sorry to be obliged to stiD e e j that he could 'riot agree in opinion with th e Hon. and Lear il the Gentleman. The allegations made had been p rov ed, and experience which he had acquired as a member of the In tc " n s dation Committee compelled him to say that he could has bear out the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in the hope, i he r. ) 0 expressed that the allegations. were unfounded There appeared before that committee one particular u which had disgusted every one who heard of it. What h e r ferred to was the address of Father Keogh to his congr e g a, t. tion. On that occasion a gentleman was before th e 00 01 s tee, a reporter wellj acquainted with th e b us i ness of that House. That gentleman deposed, in the most decided ner, that he had taken d own i n s h ort-hand, at the chapel n his Leighlin-bridge, the address of the Rev. Mr. geli ht° .congrtgation. H e did not k now whether the "°..n. and Learned Member for Tipperary was present upon the oc,ckx, sion of Mr. C ar t er H a ll being examined: but what be ou t cidedly st a t e d t h ere was this ',Would you, if you w ergi l d .'' on your oath, state this was an accurate report ?" I wel ie so —" Now, although you have been asked whether you be h e st, the substance as accur a te, d o y ou mea n t o say that the Pi tt - es e to his .congregation, at the altar, made use of do words, ' There is one wretch that has done s°,' you know whom I mean? I mean Pat Neil, the 'phis critical, proselytizing, apostate, lickspittle, Pat Neil, r ea brother?' "On the virtue of my oath I took it dow n e) paper the moment he uttered it." He (Sir H. flartren was quite sure that upon that occasion the individual ho an d livered the address in terms so atrocious, that the He il ' • Learned Gentleman must condemn the import of that ad dre d ss s; but the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would also be hee e i c dre ss agree with him if he had heard the eviden c e, that this auGeri was actually given.—( Hear.) The Hon. and Learned e to tleman said that after giving the P ar li amen tary franchi s e o to the counties, why not also give the muni c ipal franc his o t o the- towns.—(Hear, from the Ministerial Members.) th e Hoe. and Learned Gentleman shonld be aware, that at ffs e• time that Parliamentary Reform passed for Ireland, tht 'Act chise in. England was 40s. ; while it was stipulated in t e e sOle of 1829 that the franchise should be raised from 403. s u And so it was that the same fallacy ran through the sPe e ; t he the Hon. and Learned Gentleman as through that of de , J , Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when e n they so . dared that it would be an insult to Ireland not to grant t1,11"g„, the same measure of justice that had been conceded to % t ee land. Why in the Reform Bill they did not give to the P e i to of Ireland that which the English were granted—instead o 40s. franchise, the Irish were given but the 10/. franchise' of (Cheers from the Opposition Members, and hear, hear I " - 0 , 4 1 Mr. O'Connell ) Was it pos 3 ible th a t th e H o n. and be ar e so Member for Dublin ch eere d hi m ? Wh y , if h e wa s not wr c t fel it was that Hon. and L earne d G en tl emen w h o had origiesoe, the disfranchisement of those freeholders. If he ed t ver' that he should be most happy to be c orrec t e d ; b u t h e believe t he it was the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who consented tattor disfranchisement of not l ess th an 200,000 o f t h e c onstit tle in the various counties in Ireland.—( Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL—I had a petition presented, P ra d not to grant emancipation on those terms. o Sir HENRY HARDINGE—Was not that previou s t by passing of the Emancipation Bill ? Now, he was infer°, of Mr. Littleton, at p resent Lord Ilatherton, that the c hit ' s : th a , the Bill affecting th e const i tuency o f I re l an d, an d 01 40s. franchise to 10/., that clause was in the handwr itill° the the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Loud cheers frorroao Opposition Membe rs .) Th e H on . and Learned Ge ntle sof who had just sat down had d e fied them t o show that ull e " o ialt occasion the Roman Catholics had been regulated by s e tt c , wit; principles when seeking to c arry p o litic a l o bjects. " and very unwilling to be in any way discourteous to the 11°31 to, Learned Member for Dublin, but be was bound to aPr e b ,fore and should read, the evid ence con t a i ne d i n the book d 001 i - him, to show that Hon. and Learned Gent. advocate, d i c es' tical objects on the ground of religious and sectarian pre4 t aslif If he were wrong h e sh ou ld w i s h to b e correcte d, but w"." Ile' certainly, he would not misinterpret the evidence in th e l s oie‘ port.--( Hear.) He thought it much fairer, instead e' o re' into evidenc e i n th e a b sence o f an i n di v id ua l , that, tl7ci,"oo sence of that individual, he should state what the e la ' t the was, and what th e resu lt of it appeared to him to he , , t Or Hon. and L earne d M em b er f or Dublin had attempte d t d to th e very political objects by sectarian means. He appealed!„ th e _ House upon this point for the evidence given bcteirdescu, Committee. He wished to state that this was not the.e:, that of any obscure person ; and he begged to pren" - C,, scs; upon the occasion in question, and before the 1 4 it i V e rtib e e examined, he requested of the Hon. and Learned d th for Dublin, or some member of his family, to a tt !fral e o examination, and accordingly the lion. Member fo r sa th e ~ attended while the evidence was given which 11 0 :: . te d sy S ,,f going to read. The individu a l t o w h om he ali c t ion ° Mr. Brownrigg, who held f or severa l years the sit i‘b . ' sub-inspector red magistrate of the county of Ker r t es $ l. ; Brownrigg, on being asked, "D o you k no w wh et- e s orn O'Connell, in the county of Kcrry, at Troia'hca balcony or platform in front of the Commercia' d th t, 3 o ing-rooms, addressed the p eo pl e on one do-Y , an ia lie stated in substance, as it has been printed o lor Kerry papers, That the re was no t - a d em on in h e galit. l , ll, base than the Catholic who should vote for th e l' 3 ll, of Kerry ;' and then th ese wor d s were repea ted, " w e i senr a death's-head and cross-bones painted or printed on a ti t her e and posted on th e d oor o f any Catholic who vote s ibhe., ir d the:, —Mr. Brownrigg, to thi s ques ti on , answe red, " rs f r o , }, words used in su b stance b y M r. O'C onne ll."—('`' e - ,15" e • o the Opposition benches.) Mr. Brownrigg was 0,100,10 " Did yeu hear the first part, That there was n° for th hell mo re b ase t h an the Cathclic who should vote /0 or , Knight of Kerry ?' to which he answered, " I di cl ' i " i g sPe e `:), elusion, lie was asked, " Do not you think that t _ p oli o taken in connection with the public speech made l d n ers if -,'' was calculated to alarm any Catholic of the lower 0, IA , Otis it voted for the Knight of Kerry ?"—Answer : " I tni Now he (Sir H. Hardine.e) begged the House to 0 ee elh ito o te l er 0 1 in the words attributed ° by this witness to Mr. ° : ti° t was not put generally that any voter who should _ dere oll oy Knight of Kerry should be considered worse than to to hell, but that the denunciation was directed entirely