The Sun. — London, England, 1808-05-03 00:00:00

(,!:, one county (if they should be serving in it) ,to. Local Militia of the other. He bud also a eanse to propose, which should contain a provision tor granting the same facilities of support to the families of persons in the Local Militia, whose la bour was necessary for the support of their families,. ,vhich are at present enjoyed by Volunteers of the Aalne description, when they-go "nut on permanent duty. This would nut bring any burthen upon the Tarishes, because, though, .as in the case of Volun ,teers, the charge would in the first 'instance be ad ,vanced by the parish, it way afterwards to be re funded by the ReCeiver General: of the County .-- He was not aware of any other poiot which it wai .necessary for him to state to the I louse ; but one general regulation which he had always in his con .emplation, and of which he was gire - the House ,Vonld readily perceive the expediency, namely, to plaCe these Corps, when called out, under the super- intendanee. of the Officers of the Line. • EVeryGet%- tleman inust inst intly be aware' of the impellant idvantages in point of pra6lical and professitgal improvement that_ must result from the adoption of such an arrangement. Having thus explained. the nature of the alterations which he Meant . to introduce into the Bill ?It the Committee, he . should now move the Qtdet of the Day for the second read ing of the Bill. Mr. WHITEREAD expressed his trust that in the C6mmittee the Noble Lord would introduce some Clause to remedy the grass injustice suffered by those who were .stirving by substitute iu the Army of Re serve, and had since been ballotted into the Militia, and obliged to serve in perion. There were several who had expended the fruits of all their earnings in providing a substitute in the Arrny Of Reserve, at the expellee of forty , or fifty guineas, and Who having, afterwards been drawn for the Militia, had not the means of procuring another substitute, and .were consequently obliged to serve 'personally. These were comparatively few in number, but it was ex tremely desirable and just that they should be al lowed! Jo \vithdraw front the Militia. In his 'county persons of that description had not been subjeded to the ballot, because it had been thought that it had never been intended by the Legislature. tie hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lord would pro vide for this ease of hardship, in the Comthittee, be cause a clause to that etre& would come moo bet:. ter from him or his friends than front any other Member. to otlices of trust and euloliniient bivtted individuais and religious agitatorS. ' This was the course they took with respect. ,to the Army by pursuing that system they would discourage the peasant from enter ing into it. When the events of 'the last two years: should,be recorded in the page of history, posterity Would discover an extraordinary contrast between the condua of the late and the present Administration. After a few•other general observations, the Hon. Member declared himself hostile to the measure. Mr. J. SNUTH was happy to find that the only . substantial objection that could be urged against the Bill was removed by the amendments proposed by the Noble Lord this night. He had been always a decided friend to. the Volunteer system. He was sorry the Volunteers were not engaged for the war, as they might have been at its commencement. •It remained now to' apply the best remedy to the er ror then committed; and this measure was' the re medy most efficacious, as it would go direCtly to make up for the falling off that must take place in a pure Volunteer Force, after the urgency of the iut mediate call for their service should have -ceased to operate with its original influence. He denied that the Bill could with propriety be called a conscrip tion, or that there was any thing oppressive 'in the nature of the service required. Mr. HERBERT (of 'Kerry) saw nothing excep tionable in the Bill, which he had read over with attention. The magnitude of the dangers with which time country was threatened, required the exertion of all the powers of the Empirefor our de fence ; and this contained no more severity than the time required; 'The Noble Lord bad made one material omission, which, however, may yet be re medied. The Empire was indebted to the Noble Lord for the great measure of the Union : but that •great measure was still imperfeCt, while there was not an unity of defensive force between the United Kingdoms. It would be a measure worthy of the Noble Lord, who had combated iu the 'foremost ranks to effect the Union, to remedy that imperfect- • tion, and to render the great work complete. The hardship of the more distant' removal from home' would be reconciled by the urgency of the case, and would be hot tan addition to the alterations and im- Trovements that bad already beet: made on rho ori ginal constitution of the Militia. He was anxious that the:Bill should go to a Committee, and hoped that the Amendment he suggested would be made in that stage. Sir F. Buenerr agreed that the Noble Lord was the fittest person to originate such a measure as that now before the House. But the Honourable Gen tleman-who spoke hut, did not seem aware of what that measure would subject the country to. Its for -num timers whon 064. 0.1131 WWI A. elexiiroran °Ara. it could not be kept in order without extreme seven ty', it may have been right le mad. sod to enforce that military code, the penalties of winch werenow , the exclusive disgrace ut the British Army, and the British Nation. But at the present time, when so, great an ronelioration had taken place in the disci pline and Composition of our military force, it was no longer excusable to continue those penal ' enaia, meets ; and certainly he should. pause before he would give-his consent to commit the whole peoPle of England to what was dishonourable and pond cirrus to the Army. itself. 'He had no objeCtion to a conscription, in the / lull force of the word. 'He CO'uld never consider it a hardship On •a man to be called on 'to defend his borne and his country; Or to qualify himself for that necessity It ,was not on that ground, therefore, that he had any objeCtion to this measure. But, before he could assent to subjed the British people to any general call -of this nature; he' would call for an amendment in the military code; He could never allow the British people to be subieCt:to a disgrace, for which Britons were particularly 'meant the lash. . He would never give his consent to have the people lashed. It %Mit) , this part of the toea sure, however, that the fitness of the :Noble Lord to . be its proposer was particularly felt. Experience had shown, that the Noble Lord was the fittest man in the world to sabomit a whole people to the lash, He allowed, for it was the, opinion ,of the ablest /military meg ) , that the immense power. of France, direEted by the ablest and most experience& Leader modern Europe had seen, was sufficient to impress the necessity of calling forth our whole phy sical strength to meet the threatened danger. If any ,fair and honourable mode of drawing forth this ox .ertion had been made, he would have been ready to give it his support. But the measure now before the House, ,thouis.n perfelt for every purpose of disgrace, was impotent in time view of strength. He was asto nished that any man should presame to interfere with the Government of his country, with so little experience, as to bripg forward for the main de fence of the nation, a measure so inconsistent with Sir JAmns HALL was then proceeding to make some observations on the Bill, when retninded,by Lord Castlereagh that it would be more desirable to hare the Order of the Day read before the discuision should proceed, as he had only taken that opportu nity of stating the nature of the alterations, he: had - .to propose, that he might not be preeluded frop 4e 7 livening his sentiments upon the main question when it/shonld annte into discussion. : The Order of the Day we's then read, and on the 11.1_ , stidri that the Bill be reild a second time, Sir Jitltlt:s ITALt. delivered his sentiments upon it .tt some length, abut in so leW and (in the,taller'y) . inaudible a tone, that we found it absolutely nnpos sible to coiled his ergumenta in such a manner as justify our attempting to report his'speech. Colonel Sure Ley, though he should have many Ahen opportunities of stating' his sentiments upou ibis Measure, could.ttot autfer, the present stage of the Bill to pa3s without urging his obje6tious to - For many years past, not a Session had elapsed without some plan having been brought forward for providing, fut thQ defence of the Country, and MI. proving the condition of the'Army.. Each. sueees sive Administration produced their own system, and endeavoured to do away that of their predecessort, but little had been done for the strength of the Country, - or the benefit of the Army, He had seen few measures that were calculated to produce any benefit, but to increase the power and infloence of Ministers, and to augment the expenditure of the 'Country. The object of Ministers. was noLthe, eoinfOrtnf the soldier, or the good of the service, but to procure a small temporary force, tend a large extent of patronage. But, in tpc last Session, a system had been brought forward, on which he had already expressed t‘is opinion. Twit system was not calciiiated to increase the influence of Ministers, but to place the Army on a respectable footing, and the . Army will relic& with gratitude that there had been a Minister at the head of the War Department, whose•objeCt in legislating for them was to provide for the comfort and respectability of . the profession. fie had flattered himself, that a system of that de . scription would not from jealousy or any other ; rno 7 tives be attacked at the root by any stmeeding ,nisters, without, even giving it a trial. But Whit was this grand. new scheme, which was ro place the Country in a state of security ? ft was represented to be a measure fOr providing a regimented and well disciplined force, without considerable expellee, far the security of the Country. if he thought it would have that effed, it should have hii support, as any' measure of that desdriptioti should, from whatever side Of the House it should proceed: But he would contend,' that this measure Would be both expensive • in its execution, and oppressive to the indiVidual. Did the Noble Lord suppose, or did.. he imagine he catatnake the House believe, that in twenty-eight days, this force, composed of country gentlemen, farmers, manutaatners, and peasants, could be ei , they regimented or well disciplined - ton& with troops of the Line? He nee4 . not tell the House that such an effea in a month' was impossible. As to the ex pence, he would ask, were not the men to receive a bounty, were they not to be paid whilst on &qt. - , training, were they not to. be armed and clothed at the 'espence of Government, and were they not to }give ti permanent Staff ? He maintained, therefore, that the expence would be ruinous, and proVe a sorirceof inconvenience to all ranks and descriptions, condemned the idea of allowing Volunteers to etaer into these Corps of Local Militia, from a set-, ViCe in which they could be more uieful. He thought that it wOuid be telt as a hardship that persons should ete compelled personally to serve, and that the mea sure weitild create disiatisfaelion out of doors: They were told that this meesure would not interfere with the regular recruiting, but be contended that the compulsion of this Bill would excite, if not create, an aversion or a disgust to a military life, because v. ben a man was forced frem his family into servlee lit;der this Bill, he w<riald net have any diseo F eji,is 'wares a Military life. As to the qualifications for („tfieers, which *Cie the same as in the old *Hifi, t i ac iu g ht, ther, whilst so many of the vonakirs the constitution and genius of the people, and with every principle of common sense. The French Go• verument had now under its controul 100 millions of people. It had the command "of all: the ports of the Continent, and would soon have Fleets in va rious quarters,. equal at least in number to ours..., In these circumstances, this country could not rest its safety -on any thing but an armed population:— The 13riti,h nation should bo in a state to feel no alarm, even if it, had not a ship on the sea. He was not dissatisfied that the people should be made an armed people. What he was anxious for was, that measures should issne from that House of a nature to inspire the people with enthusiasm, and to anitnitte the to, general exertiptt. H,e would tiot, ,bov..ever,. give up the people to be flogged.— He would nut allow Britain. to be a itiged nation, j When individual soldiers voluntarily !,eld therusblres into that situation, it 44 :1 ' fitaiicielit Shame , to the country that. peril-titled such an 31p..11: but lie would not. giiow tho,ket4pie to tfc .brought into that condi. tion t)y compuhiuty tillii , lll;eLli, ' lnc bUit ben o f tatittlitigatati • rust/144i sett vino Ua left out 01 Li; 1. would be impossible to procure qualified Orkic,rs for ' in the paramount invariance of the other points. these Lo s cal Corps. Though much of his objeCii° ll —We 'had seen 'all the nations of Eur Ope, with against the clause for preventing .substitutiOn was j armies• Composed as ours were., fait before France.J. done away by the explanation of the alterations I Th greatest Military Powers of the Contineuti . from given by the Noble Lord, he yet thought, that let 1 relying on mere mercer.asy !reties, had been as it whatever provisions or oaths can be ( kvised, or in- 'a , ere, trodden down . and ,walked over by France, troduced, they cannot prevent substitution. The : without resistance. He was aware the Constitution defence of the Country ought to he provided forby i of 1104:Country placed every man at the disposql of voluntary, not by compulsory serviFe. But. this 1 the Kini , , to be plaoied'in the 'iltuatton in which he measure was of a piece with the other measures of . would be most wanted, to resist the enemy id case the present Ministers, with the violent means by of invasion. ,He obieeled: not to this : but he wish whieh they proposed to promote 'commerce, by I ed, by the abolition of the disgraceful penalties at throwing impeditnents = to tranquirkse Ireland, by tacked to the 'condition of a British soldier, to make avoiding file: cures of conciliation—or by appointing, the iitnation such as a British freeman may, with- out impropriety, be Awed in. The fatality with whiclrneglecis such as were - now to be 'complained _ . of in this country were attended MonArchs less consummately virtuous 'than ours, ought to teach us the duty,of doing every thing incumbent upon us to secure a life so precious. He 'therefore begged` his Majesty's Ministers to be cautious how they propos.; ed measures of general defence, clogged with obliga tions dishonourable to any nation; but particularly inconsistent with the characteristic and constitutional freedom of Britons. Unless this measure should be amended in the Committee ; 'and. unless` a general amendment should be made, .by omitting the ob noxious penalties from the Mutiny ACt, he shoulrl be under the necessity ot, giving his decided opposi tion in the latter stages. He lamented that every thing done by:the British Government was calculated to give an idea:that the nation was hastening •to its . fate. A short time ago a great measure was brought forward for the permanent support of the army.— That measure was sc'arcely,allowed to commence its operation, when it was altered, end in substance re pealed. There was nothing but vacillation in our Councils. In the present Administration nothing was brought forward but measures of mere tempo. rary convenience and -immediate practical policy, measures that stamped their authors as mere jour neymen. There was nothing like those, principles by which alone nations can flourish, and frotn which no nation ever departed without involving its own ruin. Having entered his protest against the mea sure, on these most important points,•he would re4° serve his further observations to a future stage ' Colonel WOOD could not anew the Hon. Ba ronet to be led away by a false and injurious concep tion of the, British Military Code. That code was the mostlenient of Europe, and the Hon. Baronet little knew the chaettEter of British Officers it' he .thailght they were disposed to establish their autho rity by. the lash. Theicharaeler of British Officers was so far the reverse of cruelty, and. the confidence of the soldiers iu their justice and lenity so great, that the men preferred being. tried by them tb being tried by their otvn comrades. He was proud to say, that in the regiment to which he had ;he honour to belong, there had been. but one Court . -Martial •in two years. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herbert), the Militia was on a most strange footing. Any British Regiment may be tent . to Fort George, and kept, there during the wars but .not one could besent to do garrison duty In Dublin. The interchange of, Militia would tend more thah any other measure to unite and. consoli date the great divisions of the empire, and he would be happy to lend his concurrence promote He app.,Wed of a. Local Militia, as necessary to sup ply that falling off that must take nlace m rh. v._ funteers, as every indisidual Was allowed-to retire at pleasure. He denied that this measure would give an increase of patronage ; but, if it did, it could not not be unpopular., Frain the Magistrates and coun try Gentlemen he. was happy to learn that the mea sure was unnmersally approved of. • - Mr. WHITBREAD could easily remove the difficul ty, the Him. Gentleman (Col. Wood). had,- of ten ceiving hew any thing that would give patronage could be unpopular. Measures of taxation, for stance, were extremely unpopular, yet no measures were attenlied Wiih more extensive patronage in the appointment of collectors, &c. ; and even that patronage,was felt as one of the greatest hard Ships annexed to them. His Hun. Friend (Mr. Herbert) had complimented the noble Lord on his gallantry in fighting in the foremost ranks for the Union, and conquering ,the opponents of that measure. Hie Hon, Friend, ought, however, to hive recalletiled, that one of the greatest conquerors of antiquity ,(Philip) asserted, that he would take any town into which he could get room for an.ass laden with gold to ewer. This was the sort of agency employed in the conquest for which his Hon. Friend gave We' Noble Lord so much credit, he had the authceiry of the Irish Chancellor of the Exthequer (Mr. Foster) for believing. It was strange that the , Noble Lord' who was formerly foremost in de fence of the Volunteeis, and who for that purpose imputed expressions to his Right Hon. Friend which he had Clever made use of, should now bring forward a measurer which went to absorb them altogether.— For if that was not the object - of the present mea sure, he could not see what it war good for. The noble 'Lord regarded the Volunteers as an ancient orator .(Cicero) .did a great but dangerous political character of his time (Caesar) htudandi, ornarkii, lot -r,tio noble Lord bad prsisad and ornornvuted the Volunteers, and now shewed he, did not under stand, inasmuch as he conceived it was to be execut ed by the Constable, was evidently the original from which the Noble Lord derived this measure. The recruiting of the army would have been regularly and pertriauently provided tot: if the noble Lord had suffered :the measure of his Right Honour able Friend fairly to operate. But ,the Noble Lord would hay& a volunteering from the Militia, which had indeed been successful, as' nobody doubt ed it would be, bUt had been attended with mast oppressive consequences from the general operation of the ballot to supply the deficiency the yuluntder had lett after them. The multiplication of the lot by the present measure would extend the hard ship still farther. He would venture to say, that when it should come to be tried, the number of men required could not be found between the ages of vightee.n and thirty-five. It would, hes-ides; be attended with this most ruinous cd'ec.l on the inortis and industry of the young:men, whom it %v.'s l iar. posed principally to subject to the oallot, to take them away for twenty-eight days from: ihuir - homes, and to send Allem hack depraved and corrupted, tv coat - ttnn;iC3te the b&elui .tt'ects dl their csttupaign around the nteighll.itir4ood. Thi expettee.of eiinVerting the Volainvers into i11:11na enornions, arid when cowpared with that ui his Right Haw. Frient,;'i I rill. of, it would be , foond to be much more considerable. , Still he wished the measure should go Into a Cocas* mittee, in order that it insy be correted much at possible bx the Noble Lord, and by others. With. respeft 'td the interchange of Militia, that WAS tt measure too important to be implicated in any other. Would to God the Irish were nut left under t hld e necnecessityof coming to England to learn what Wou attach them to the British Constitution astd cconne d tion.: Would to God the Government of the day , was sensible of the justice and wisdom of attaching and inspiring-the Irish nation by conciliatory 'llea' sures. Then there would be nu occasion for such an interchange. He wished to avoid, on this ()Car sioh, the discussion of the severe punishments con tained in our military code. He always believed the • English were good and humane officers, and that thq mitigated, by their moderation and lenity, ELIO rigour of the law. Such he knew was the impres7 siort of the men, both by sea and land, they always preferred being tried by their otficers, to being tried by their comrades. Mr. WILBERFORCE considered the Country to be in the most alarming situation in which it had over been placed ; and the danger was th more seridus, as it was not properly estimated either in the House 01 out of it If the danger was properly estimated, some of the debites about matters of personal jou:- rest would be put off the Country should be in a state of safety. Year alter year the power that me naced us had been accumulating, but ill ;proportion as it rose to a more tremendous hei i .O.t, I),lviog washed away before its devastating tide all tie: other„ nations, we seemed to view it with greater indiaer- ' ence. The extinction of the naval power of the enemy gate us but an impede& security. Il was the opinion of the best naval Officers that the enemy niay etTed a landing, and this conetry u ould net have done its duty unless it placed itself in a tiun not only ultimately to conquer an invading flute, trot -to prevent its making an impression in any guar. ter. Providence had placed invaders under this (Hs' advantege„ when compared with. these who tided en the defensive, that they- could make use ouly Of regular soldiers, while the others could use every description of force in its proper station. But en- , less we took measures for an erreaual and penult. neat ample force for defence, wa may be attacked when we would least expeet it, and overwhelmed by an immense military power, while we would be debating on the details of an inadequate peace eats- . blishment.: The measure before the liouie;did not come up to his idea of what was necessaty tot he public defence. He felt, however, for the diffi culties of his Noble Friend's situation. When pro scription, and the other hard terms applied thl4 night, Were dealt out with so NILO be , it was Matter of difficulty end terrdt , to prepare and prod any plan for the public service. Wbst E = d thought necessary was, that the whole popolq-. Atte of the Country should be so trained, that wl2O brought forward in the .manner his Majesty, Under the pt`erogative, may think tit, they may . toi 'able to give the regular army such aid in opposing j the enemy as would not allow him to make any progress. •He wished the Noble Lord had come for. ward with: some appeal, that would reetiod the Brie fish People of the glories of their ancestors, and rho j value of their inestimable constitution ; telling theirs I that they must make up their minds to sureender 31 1 tirevc; - ,lc4r pledges, which be was sure- they wooki never do, without striking a blow, or resolve, which was more congenial_ to their spirit, to shed the last drop of their blood,-or. conquer, in their —Such an appeal would lay ground - for an exertion adequate to the exigency, _as he thought this was net. He applauded. this measure as far as it- would go. - lie -also approved -highly of the plan of defence- proposed by aan'altur Nu bleaLord (Earl Selkirk), and. wished it was carried into etre& The Volunteers were nor interfered 'with by'the present measure, which spent only to provide a supply in I,lle event of their falling off. Every One who pad considered the subject alluwo the digictilty of keeping up a great standing army if'' , time of peace. It therefore became necessary 1 0 ' have a large subsidiary force, which may, if 00 " cesiary l):t easily transferred to the Regulars. varied force was fittest for this Country, all A., brenches of which would ria with corarnen enlla• lion. He trusted Parliament would previ.ie ado' fence adequate to the exigence; an d t h at l on g con' temptation of the danger, tsvould not. C - ause it to be undervalued., The cm :my had no l onger poWerflit. nations to dread;. the loss au army was less material to him, and liew4 leSs exposed to revolt at v n These wefe all.additional temptations to undertake the enterprize against us. But our great free PoPu, - 'anon, if Government and Parliameet would ay: 4 themselves of them,. attbrded ample means to Ti der attack hopeless, and peace secure. Mr. WINDHAM vindicated hittiself and his frier4 'from the imputation of under-rating the clinger ot; • invasion. He could, however, remember Peri" of danger, the year 3798, when t h e lion. Gentle.. man,who brought the charges (Mr. Wilberiercei 1)"11 been mainly instrumental in forcing On the Mitiister. at that time, Mr. Pitt (whom the Lion. Gcutic,m, al3 ,, thought the greatest man that ever governeo country, and whom he himself should ever realty)). bar with great respea), a measure which pat thee: Government of this Country in - a col.trSe new,' and to which tba disasters that had bel- 31 ` 3 '' Europe were in . a great degree to be attributed.'. 'Ehis he said to vindicate the memory of that grow man frotn.at leAst,.one.of the errora that in iusuY instances are groundlessly. charged upon him. f i-r present the danger seemed to so far thought 0fi11'3;.., something was to be done to meet it ; brit it seerso 4 v to be thought matter of ioditterebce what that sOni tl-.- . thing should be. His objettion to the present sure was not that it went to do too much, or that 14 was too burthensome, but that it was in RS inefficient. He wished 16 strip the measure 91 ' 4 ! feathers, and to,shew it in its 'Laurel size. 'PP proposed measure would be. attended with vast exPtmee, with a general, disturbatice of the occuP!; dons of private lite, patronage without end, Ot t a g, 11,14 t conueltillation of p u blic morals; Tlit: jT I sure was btilkly • but he wished to wicertaitt its sttb~t~trr, tial t;i7;:". Wha,t wool& all this tinsel burn to, wl i ; weight of gold did it contain ;We arc: toll ` t , r I. "'IJNO Thoe,satict Men in arms; btu we nod the arcedand arms before. ,The carolling ton ': o f provided for by the Traiuing Aa, in the 83190 1 5 ' 1 ' Iwo Hundred Iliotisatid Alen, or t»or e if tteceri; 1 its Training was to have been for 1:4 V