The Sun. — London, England, 1838-05-04 00:00:00

THE QUEENS LEVEE. 'Her 'Majesty went In State WedlieSdilir l With her suite, in three c 70., triages, and an escort, from the Nett Palace, to St. James's Pages:, Sod held a 'Levee, which WAS very numerously attended. Rd Majesty was a ttended by the Marchioness of Lansdowne (Ill'st Lady), the Marchioness of Tavistock, and Lady Portman, batiks in Waiting; Viscount Tor- Lrington, Lord ht Waiting; Sir Ifrelerick Stovin, Groom in Wait-ink ; ord Alfred Paget, Eqe7ry. in Waiting; and Lord Kihnatnock and . Cowell, Pages of His Royal Hi nness the Duke of Sussex attended the Levee. s -th e Queen h av i ng taken her station in the Throne.room, attended 1,), her s'ait e, and also by the Marquis of Conyngham, Lord Chamber. Ja in, the Duke of Argyll, G.C. H , Lord Steward ; the Earl of Albe. !Tarte, G.C.H., Master of the Horse ; the Earl of Surrey, Treasurer of the Household ; and the Hon. Colonel Cavendish, Clerk Marshal ; the Entree company were introduced, when the following presentations to her Majesty took place in the Circle : Prince Odescalchi, Le Comte Chorinsky (son_in.law of Prince Ester. hazy), Count Emanuel Zicky, Major Count Sommery, and Mr. Charles Langton, Ma ssingberd Officer in th e A us t r i an S erv i ce, b y Pr i nce , r.le rhazy, the Austrian Ambassador. Count de Maltzan, Chamberlain to his Prussian Majesty, by Baron below, the Prussian Minister. Count de Montgelas, Chamberlain to the King of Bavaria, by Baron de Cetto, the Bavarian Minister. 1)0 0 Rafael Alvarez y Mendizabal, Attache to the Spanish Legation, by C hevalier de Aguilar, the Spanish Minister. The Chevalier Heath (Sardinian Consul_General), by the Count Pol. lon, Sardinian Minister. thMr. Moeller, Privy Councillor of Legation, by Baron Munchhausen, e Hanoveria n Mi nister; and Baron Bentinck, Charge d'Affaires of Netherlands, by the Master of the Ceremonies. There were also presented to the Queen : The Lord Denman, by the Lord Chancellor. Earl Cadogan, to kiss hands as Naval Aide-de-Camp. The Hon. J. D. Bligh, her Majesty's Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary at Hanover, on his appointment, by Viscount Palmerston. I ‘_ fr. Fo x, to take leave on going as Minister to Frankfort. Sir Francis Head, Bart., on his return f rom U p p er C ana d a, b y t h e Lord Gl enelg AUs . C olonel Lieut. Gawler, on app o i n t ment to b e Governor of Southern tralia, by Lord Glenelg. Mr. George Maclean, Governor of Cape Coast Castle, by Lord Glenelg, The Soli citor -General for Scotland, by Lord John Russell. Ilche tern Houlton, E ns i gn o f t h e Yeoman Guard, by the Earl of T he Rev. William Strong, on his re-appointment as Chaplain in Ordinary, by the Bishop of Gloucester and Bristol. T he Rev, Thomas Davies, Chaplain to the Lord Mayor, by the Lord Mayor, RaTeh_e Chel meley Edward Dering, Ch a pl a i n i n O r di nary t o h er Therlby his Grace the Archbishop of Canterb ur y. Archb' ev. Montagu J o h n Wynyard, Chaplain in Ordinary, by the „ "holt Of York. " P tai A m Bellairs, Exon of the Yeoman of the Guard, by the Earl of behest a• Mr. Stra h Nester,' the / c all, Gentleman Usher Quarterly Waiter to the Queen, by Ford Chamberlain.CoUnt de Sah• by Lord de Tables'. Count The , Baptiste Metaxa, by Lord Tencicrclen. Sari n , Ez was attended by the Austrian and Russian Ambassado t rs , ; di, Ottoman Ambassador, and Mr. Salame, her Majes . y s Bavaria • preter; the Neapolitan, Prussian, Oriental int" Wurtemberg, Danish, Ilaton S P an ish, Sardinian, Hanoverian, and Saxon Ministers; ti sved. de Bourqueney, ler "11 Charge d'Affaires; Charge d'Affaires ; Baron Rehausen, Chevalier Rebello de Carvalho, Portuguese i 4on se d d'Affaires ; B aron B entinck, Netherlands Charge d'Affaires; Princ litirnmelauer, Fi rs t S ecretary o f t h e A ustr i an E m b assy; L e ' Ata , 'e Don Livi o Odescalchi, Due de Syrmie ; Le Comte de Sommery, Penal lor I C avalry in th e A ustrian Service, and Chamberlain of his Im. ' la tiestY ; Cou n t E manuel Zicky Ferraris; Emeen Effendi, Secre. t i - s - 1,0 .."1id Mon. Agob, Interp re t er o f th e T ur ki s h E m b assy ; t h e Arc h . the v es of Canterbury and York, the Earl Marsh a l, the C omman d er o f Judge ce , , the Capt a i n of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at. Arras, the Captain of th e Y eoman of the Guard, Sir John Nicholl, Hounds Admiralty, P. C.l the Master of the Queen's Buck the Master -General of the Ordnance, Mr. C. Wood, M.P., to See w ret ary of the Admiralty ; the Master of the Ceremonies, Sir John R e an ' B art, Lord Mayor; Sir Harris Nicolas, K.C.M.G., the Lord Of tgiseter of Scotland ; Sir William Burnett, K.C.H., Physician-General do h Nov Scotland Mr. Sergeant Arabin ; Sir George Carroll, Sheriffof Lon. 4:_ealid Middlesex ; Sir Moses Montefiore, Sheriff of London and Mid i): ; the Dean of Hereford (in Waiting), and the Rev. Dr. Short, „ 'LIMY Clerks of the Closet • ; Count Batthyany, Mr. Under. Sheriff Wire, the Sir Robert Gardiner and Sir Adolphus Dalrymple, A.D.C. to Queen ; Mr. Albert Beetham, Clerk of the Cheque of the Honour l'bie Corps of Gentlemen.at.Ar ms ; Mr. Ellerthorp, Clerk of the Cheque of the Y eoman of the G uard; Sir Thomas Horsley Curties, Exon of the coman of the Guard ; Major Hyde, Assistant Master and Marshal of the Ceremonies; Captain Courtcnay Boyle, R.N., Groom of the Privy ‘-'phanalter i n W aiting; Lieut.. Colonel Bouverie, Silver Stick; Captain "hell, I LN., Equerry to h er M a j es t y Q ueen Adela i de. Petitio n The folle.wing Noblem en an d G ent l emen presented Addresses and S to the Queen rr 4 T he •I`.larquis of Conyngham—a petition from the ladies of Tralee, 1 3 , :e.g for the abolition of negro slavery and apprenticeship. laViscount Powerscourt—an address from the Bath Church of Eng nd Lay Association, p ray i ng that the internal affairs of the Church Y be left, as heretofore, to her own management The Chairman of the Committee of the West India body, Sir Henry William Martin, Bart., of Antigua; the Deputy Chairman, Alexander Grant, Esq., of Jamaica; Sir Christopher Bethell Codrington, Bart., of Antigua; and Rowland Edward Williams, Esq., of Antigua —an address from the two Houses of Legislature of Antigua, against the principle of a Consolidated Legislative Government of her Majesty's Leeward Ca. ribbee Islands. Captain Pechell, R,N.—an address from the ladies of Brighton, con taining 5,634 signatures, praying for the entire and unrestricted free dom of the negro apprentices on or before the Ist of August, 1838. The Archdeacon of Canterbury —an address from the clergy of the diocese, praying that her Majesty would protect their rights and pro perties ; and if it should please her Majesty to re-appoint the Church Commission, that her Majesty would be pleased to command all the Bishops to be members of it. The Archdeacon was presented by the Archbishop of Canterbury. A great number of presentations then took place, ELECTION COMMITTEES. (YESTERDAY.) (From our Second Edition of last night.) HULL. The Committee m e t a t eleven o'olock, but strangers were not ad %flitted till after twelve, when The CRAIRDMAN said the Committee had decided the vote of Charles tiny was a bad vote, and must be struck off. The votes of William Wilkinson and John Allen were also struck off. The petitioners now having placed themselves in a majority, Mr. Thessiger, on the part of the sitting Members, proposed to strike off the vote of William Barker, who had voted as a freeman, on tke ground that he had received parochial relief within the last twelve months. Mr. AUSTIN objected to this, and contended there had been no proper list furnished by the agent for the sitting Members, there having been an error in the heading of the List. Mr. Tite.ssianit 'was addressing the Committee in answer to this ob. Jectlon, when it was announced that the Speaker was at prayers. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAr 3. The LORD CHANCELLOR touk his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'Clock. i t M r. BERNAL and others, from the Commons, brought up a copy of the ee e p°4 of the Select Committee on the Small Tenements Bill ; also 7 . e t: , 51 Private Bills, which were severally read a first time. p ray " i e puke of CLEVELAND presented a petition from Gateshead, T h n t for the abolition of the present system of Negro apprenticeship : arid M arquis of SLIGO presented a petition from the High Sheriff of vra n d Jury of Mayo, against the Irish Poor-law Bill, in the prayer 4°Ze W mch he concurred. He was willing to give to the poor out of his rahundance, but he did not like the system of giving relief to the sip -b°die d• Also petitions for the immediate abolition of Negro prenticeship, from Shepton, Whitchavcn, Belfast, and several other a rh ' e - n T u arlY of them were signed by women. tholi e . : nse of RICHMOND presented a petition from the Roman Ca. l r i sh — "J'oP and other inhabitants of Waterford, praying that in the root Law Bill the word impotent' be substituted for' destitute.' Th e INTERMENT OF THE POOR. • viduat Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from an indi. disse ct co mplaining that the bodies of p aupers w h o had been ed were n ot decently buried, but were thrown together promiscu c'UstY• The petitioners had f oun d out a method for promoting the rapid decomposition of bodies. He would move that it be laid on the table, and then he would:follow that up, by moving that it be referred to the Peor_la~vCommittee. Earl RADNOR could not see what connection the petition had with the Poor -law Bill. It could only have been presented for the purpose of Casting obloquy upon that Bill. The Bishop of EXETER was aware that it. had not anything to do with the Poor -law Bill ; but as the Committee was sitting for the pur- Poses of enquiry, it would be better that enquiry should be made, and if the allegations were not true, the petitioner ought to meet with merited Punishment. The Duke of RICHMOND had read over the petition, and he did not find one word respecting union workhouses in it. The Bishop of EXETER--1 can set the Noble The Duke of RICHMOND—One at a time, if the Rev. Prelate pleases—it is snore regular in this House. It mentions the parish work house, but not union workhouses. He thought it would be better that the 'ter. Prelate should move that the petition be referred to a Select Committee, to Le appointed for the purpose of specially inquiring into the facts of the petition. The Bishop of EXETER would certainly press his motion. Lord MELBOURNE conceived that the Rev. Prelate ought to make inquiry, and make out a case, before the House referred the petition to a Committee, which he had not yet done. The Rev. I'relate anxiously Wished it to be understood that he was not in any way answerable for the allegations in the petition, and it was not usual for either House of Parliament to grant Committees upon such loose allegations made by an unknown party. The Earl of RADNOR and Lord WHARNCLIFFE deprecated the rending of the petition to the Poor Law Committee—it was rather an attack upon the Anatomy Bill of a former Session, and had nothing at all to do with the operation of the Poor Law Bill. The Mahon of EXETER said, as his motion met with so much op. Position, he would withdraw it. CHURCH COMMISSION. The Bishop o f E XETER w i shed to as k th e N o bl e Vi scount at the til,!el of her M a j es t y ' s Government w h et h er it was th e i n t en ti on of Mi.. u sters to p roceed with the Bills for carrying i nto e ff ect t h e recommen .atlon of the Church Commissioners this Session ? Viscount MELBOURNE replied in the affirmative. The Plurali "F: Bill and the Bill for the regulation of Church leases under Deans and " aPters would be introduced as speedily as the other business would Perna. MALTA COMMISSION. Earl RIPON then moved for a return of the expenses incurred by the Malta Commission. He contended that it was useless and unneces sary, He did not mean to deny that there were no matters respecting that Island which demanded the attention of the Government ; but he denied that there were any of such a magnitude as to justify the Govern- Ment in running away from its own responsibility, and putting it aon the shoulders of others, to enquire and recommend what reme es should b e applied. The Secretary of State had no difficulty getting any inf ormat i on h e m i ght want — all he had to do was to send out a despatch to the Governor, and he would at once have got more in formation than any that could be obtained by gentlemen sent out with- Out an y previous k now l edge of t i e Islan d . The first Report ran through fifteen pages; and would they believe it, it was entirely taken lip with that n ew and very important subject, the Liberty of the Press? Now could his Noble Friend really want any information on such a subject—but if he did, could not either the Governor or the Gentleman who filled the office analogous to our Attorney-General --they would h ave given it him in a moment, and without putting the Country to any expense. He would venture to say that the Noble r d might get as much reasoning on the liberty of the press out of any of his clerks in Downing-street, as was contained in that Report. The Commissioners came to th e conc l us i on t h at t h e censorship should be w °lish ed ; but th en su b sequently they gave a recommendation which 4.11 iga an Peculiar; for, h av i ng sett l ed that there should be no censorship, that there s h ould be an independent newspaper, conducted with sd Integrity, they remark that the state of the island of Malta is such that, unless a newspdper Was helped by the Government, it could not e'd Oh i that ihetefoec there could be no Independent news paffr i and therefore, they recommended that it should in some way be assisted by the Government. He found that the Gnzette was published once a week at 3d, end that the limber sold In November, 1836, amounted IQ ~.,0-101 to Engllslithen and 156 to native ;-"- MallOc• t on nis.ioners next went en inquiry on the subject of the corn trade, and the duties levied on the island. He would ask, what use was the Board of Trade, what use the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Board of Treasury, and the Board of Customs, if the Noble Lord could not get, within one half hour sufficient information to enable him to settle the question without sending out as Commissioners a lawyer and another gentleman ? The Commissioners had even inquired into such trivial matters as the best iniode of disposing of the Government stock of corn, whether it should sbe done by public auction or private tender. The expense of the corn. mission ought also to be considered, and especially at a time when there in the last quarter, a deficiency in the revenue of between 700,000/. - and 800,0001., and which, no doubt, in the next quarter would be worse. He also saw that there was a great decrease in the export of our staple manufactures as compared with last year. These considerations made every item of expenditure of serious importance. The renewal of the two Houses of Parliament would cost the country from 250,000/. to 300,000/. a year, and he did not think they would even be completed under two millions. Besides, we were engaged in operations which cost a great deal, There were those piebald operations now going on on the coast of Spain. He did not know whether we were at war or not. It was true that under the treaty with Spain that country was bound to pay us ; but everybody knew that she had not a maravedi in her treasury, and he (lid not believe that England could ever be so ungenerous as to ask her for it. They had also sent one of the finest armies that ever existed to Canada, and this, of course, was a considerable item of ex. pease. He hoped, if the Commissioners should not be able completely to satisfy his Noble Friend on every point that he (the Earl of Ripon) might offer him one suggestion. The Noble Lord would find a trip to Malta most interesting. The climate was very salubrious and healthy. He spoke from experience, for he had visited the island himself. The Noble Lord would be received with all hospitality. Besides, it would cost the country nothing, and the Noble Lord would come back with all the in. formation necessary for a satisfactory settlement of the question. The Noble Earl concluded by moving for a return of the expense of the Com. mission sent out to Malta.—(Hear, hear.) Lord GLENELG was very much indebted to his Noble Friend for his very good-humoured advice, and for the interest which he took for his health and general enjoyment. He (Lord Glenelg) should be most happy to act upon his Noble Friend's suggestion, if his Noble Friend would accompany him. He was most happy to appoint his Noble Friend third Commissioner, and, from what he knew of his compositions, both whilst in the Colonial Office and since, he thought his Noble Friend's reports might fairly be placed as rivals with those of the commissions on the table.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the expense of the commission, he could inform the Noble Earl that the two Commissioners were to re. ceive three guineas per day, and the Secretary thirty shillings. Ac. cordingly, up to February last the expenses might have been 1,5001.; but it had not exceeded 1,6901. He thought he had a right to complain that the Noble Earl had brought the subject before the House, when all the papers were not before it. The second part of the report was not on the table, and there were other communications still to be made. The Noble Earl asserted that the Secretary of State could obtain all the ne cessary information here without a commission, and that Sir F. Pon. conby was of the same opinion. What were the circumstances under which the commission was appointed? In 1835 a petition had been presented to the House of Commons, by which representa. tions were made by Maltese subjects of the injustice with which their country was treated by England. It also prayed for redress. He (Lord Glenelg) referred these complaints to the local Govern. I ment of Malta, and required a report on the subject. The lo cal Government entered into an investigation, but as the opinion prevailed in Malta that no party could complain against the Govern ment the witnesses- refused to come forward. The question then re solved it into this—which would be better, an inquiry before the other House or an inquiry conducted in some other way ? It was obvious that an inquiry before the House of Commons would be far from satis factory, and Sir F. Ponsonby agreed with him (Lord Glenelg) that a public commission would be the best course to adopt. With respect to the expenses of the Island, Sir F. Pensonby, during his Government, in a revenue of 100,000/. per annum made a reduction of 14,0001. But his Noble Friend said that all the improvements in contemplation might be made without a reference to the country itself. If that were the case why had they not been effected when his Noble Friend was at the head of the Colonial Department. Many of their reports were in a state of readiness—most of them were in a state of very great forward. ness—the Commission itself was drawing to a close. But without these reports he (Lord Glenelg) affirmed that no conclusion could be come to on the subject, and therefore he begged Noble Lords to postpone their judgments on it till they were laid on the table of the House. They had likewise, examined into the financial state of that country, and found that tome Officers of the State who had no duties to perform were highly paid, because they were exclusively English, while others who were Italian were confined to the lowest offices, and paid the most trifling salaries for their services. That circumstance was the cause of very great discontent and exacerbation of feeling among the Maltese. They found, too, that a marked distinction was kept up between the two races, English and Maltese—a distinction denoted by the uniform exal tation of the one to all offices and places of trust, and power, and emo lument, and the consequent degradation of the other. The consequence of this vicious state of things was a just jealousy on the part of the Maltese against the English. He (Lord Glenelg) believed that nothing could be more calculated to create disaffection in the minds of the peo ple of Malta than a perseverance in this distinction. He believed that when all the Papers were before the House, their Lordships would con_ elude that the Commission had been highly beneficial to the country. The Duke of WELLINGTON, who was occasionally very inaudible, said—l should be most unwilling at this late hour to trouble the House with any observations which I could offer on the subject, if the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Glenelg) had not adverted to the commission named to inquire into the affairs of Malta when I was in office. With respect to that commission, I have to say that there is a marked difference between it and all other commissions on the game subject appointed since that period. The commission referred to was one presided over by a Cabinet Minister, the late Lord Rosalyn, and it had for its object to ascertain the state of the revenue, and the amount of expenditure of the different colonies and dependencies of the country. I have to say, my Lords, there is this difference between that commission and all others appointed since that period—that commission never cost the country a single penny.—(Hear.) It worked zealously and indefati gably—it conducted its inquiries with judgment and sound discretion— and it made a most valuable Report on the matters referred to its consi deration. On that Report we acted, my Lords, and on that Report, my Lords, I believe you will find all the colonial reforms which have since then been effected were founded. I shall now, my Lords, advert to the constitution of the commission alluded to by the Noble Baron ; but this I feel called on to say, I was very much struck with their Report.—(Hear, hear.) This commission was appointed here, and sent over from this country to Malta for one purpose, and one purpose only, and that purpose, and that purpose only, I maintain they have effected. That purpose was to make a written report on the subject of a free Press in the island, a report which enabled the Noble Baron to write his despatch on the same subject eight months after_ wards.—(Hear, hear.) That commission was appointed in September, its ostensible object being to inquire into various matters connected with Malta; but for nearly the first twelve months it did nothing be sides making a proposition to the Government of thecountry for the esta blishment of a free Press in that island. Now, in regard to this matter of a free Press In Malta, I crate your Lordships' attention to the facts of the ease for a moment, and I beg the House to bear them in mind. What is Malta ? It is a fortress and a seaport—it is a great naval and military arsenal for our shipping and forces in the Mediterranean. We hold it by conquest, and by treaty after conquest. We hold it as an im portant post, as a great naval and military arsenal, and as nothing more. My Lords, if these are the facts, we might as well think of planting a free Press on the fore deck of the Admiral's flag-ship in the Mediterra nean, or in the cascrnes of the batteries of Gibraltar, or in the camp of Sir John Colborne in Canada, as of establishing it in Malta.— (Hear, hear, hear.) A free Press in Malta in the Italian language is an absurdity.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Of the hundred thousand individuals who compose the population of Malta three.fourths at least speak nothing but the Maltese dialect, and do not understand the Italian language.—(Hear, hear.) Of the one hundred thousand inhabitants of the island, at least three-fourth can neither read nor write. What ad vantages, then, can accrue to the people of Malta from the establish. ment of a free press ?—(Hear, hear.) We do not want to teach our English sailors and soldiers to understand Italian. A free press will find no readers among them either. The free press is to be conducted not by foreign Italians, but by Maltese, subjects of her Majesty, enjoy ing the same privileges as we do. Now, what does this mean? It means that the license to do wrong is unlimited. But I shall leave the subject.—(Hear, hear.) In the report alluded to by the Noble Baron, I see that Mr. Nugent and Sir Frederick Hankey are recommended to be removed from their offices, and pensioned off at the expense of the Maltese; but I see nothing in the report at all calculated to raise the Maltese in their own estimation. I repeat, my Lords, that Malta is an English settlement—a dependency, the business of which must be car ried on for the safety of this country and for nothing else. Viscount MELBOURNE said that the Noble Duke thought, in ap. pointing his commission, that the duties required of it would be best pci f 'ruled at home. The Government to which he (Viscount Mel bourne) belonged thought they would be best discharged abroad. That was the difference between them. It appeared to him (Viscount Mel bourne) that the best mode of proceeding in the matter would be to hi. quire on the spot, and to that end he thought the appointment of an independent commission for the purpose the most effective means of arriving at the facts. It was done. The question then was as to the wisdom, discretion, and prudence of the act. He (Viscount Mel bourne) was surprised at the light and easy manner in which his Noble Friend had treated the subject of a free press. Now he (Viscount Melbourne) should think that the speech of the Noble Duke had undeceived him in that view of the case, and pointed out the difficulties with which the Govern ment had to contend in abolishing the censorship of the press. There were certainly various and most discrepant opinions on the subject, and there were opinions of those who had weight, which viewed the subject somewhat differently from his Noble Friend. He denied, on the part of the Government, any wish to disturb the political or social repose of any other State whatever, more especially with those of which we were on a friendly footing. He denied it on the part of the individuals forming that commission also. On the whole, he (Viscount Melbourne) thought the Noble Duke had treated the matter rather lightly when he compared the Island of Malta with the deck of a man-of.war ; and he fully agreed with his Noble Friend (Lord Glenelg) that there was no just grounds of apprehension that the dangers pointed out by the Noble Duke would ever come to pass. Lord GLENELG and the Duke of WELLINGTON severally explained. The motion was then agreed to. MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and others brought up thy Consoli dated Fund Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second. Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter to Eight o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 3. The Gallery Was not open till half- past four o'clock, in consequence of there being ballots fur the Bedford and Waterford Election Corn. mittees. NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE RAILWAY BILL. On the motion of Mr. P. HOWARD, the Newcastle-upon-Tyne Railway Bill was read a third time, and passed. Mr. DENNISTOUN presented three petitions from different Societies in Glasgow against the Glasgow Waterworks Bill. Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition from persons residing on the Bedford estate against the St. Pancras Paving Act. Mr. CHALMERS presented three petitions in favour of the Glasgow and Edinburgh Railway Bill. BEDFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE.' Mr CHALMERS appeared at the bar with the reduced list for the Bedford Election Committee, consisting of the following Members : Mr. Whitmore, Sir Charles Lemon, Mr. Blennerbassett, Mr. Evans, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. C. Fox StrangwaYs, Mr. Heathcote, Mr. C. Villiers, Mr. Speirs, Lord Ebrington and Mr. George R Phillips. EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW RAILWAY. On the Adjourned Debate upon the further consideration of the Re port on this Bill, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he had to propose a clause, which he thought would obviate all dilfic ulties,—enacting that the Company should not be allowed to exercise any of the powers under this Bill, until the sum of 80,000/., being 10 per cent. on the capital, shall have been paid up and deposited, from the amount paid up actually by the sub. scribers. —..—.... The clause was brought up, and read a fi rst t i me. Mr. PHAED said that the Clause ought t o b e postponed to g i ve an o pportunity of well considering it. Th e ATTORNEY.GLIstRAL said that on Tuesday he was per. fectly willing that it shoul d b e p o stponed, but he th oug ht it was under stood that it should be dis cussed to day. It was provided in the Act that it should not come into operation, until the whole of the 80,000/. was paid up by the shareholders. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET was understood to say, that the pdstponement of the clause would not impede the progress of the Bill, and would be more satisfactory to those who were unfavourable to the IneasUre. the clause as it stood was very sir E W A Uri, oi • -,nnted. The ambiguous, and ought t•i be well considered before it AV mode in which the money had been advanced did not by any m eans meet the intention of the Legislature. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that as the clause was now drawn, 80,0001 must be paid by the shareholders. The clause was then ordered to be printed. WATERFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE. Mr. CHALMERS brought up the reduced list of the Members elected to serve on this Committee. The following were the nam es Mr. Richard Miles, Mr. Thomas Williams, Sir Edward Kerrison, Mr J. E. Vivian, Mr. Win. Willsherc, Major M . Namara, Mr. A. E. L. ther, Mr. Richard Blakemore, Mr. W. N. Parker, Mr. Compton, and Mr. Maher. EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW RAILWAY. Mr. P. THOMSON then proposed three resolutions, of which he had given notice, to the effect that the Standing Orders had not been corn. plied with. Mr. GILLON opposed the resolutions, because they asserted that which was not the fact, viz., that the promoters of the Bill had not complied with the Standing Orders. Was it the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to say that each subscriber should pay up 10 per cent. on the subscription list ? Sir E. SUGDEN said it was not the intention of the House to pre scribe that each individual subscriber should have paid up his sub scription, because there would always be some defaulters, who would be punished by the regulations to which they had submitted frequently by the forfeiture of their shares But what the House intended was that the general body of the shareholders shall have bow fide by their subscriptions paid up the required amount.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. PRAED thought the resolutions ought, to be postponed till the clause which had been proposed was decided on. Sir R. INGLIS consideied it was not the province of the Standing Orders' Committee to enter into the merits of the Bill. Lord EBRINGTON, who spoke in so low and indistinct a tone that it was scarcely possible to catch a word, was understood to support the resolution. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the objection of Gentlemen opposite to the resolution was entirely unnecessary, as the Act sufficiently provided that the 10 per cent. required by the Standing Orders should be paid up ultimately, in lieu of the SO,OOO/., and before the Act came into operation, which would fully meet the intention of the Legislature. Mr. PRAED said, that if the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Attorney. General) persevered, he would divide the House.—(Hear.) Mr. P. THOMSON defended the resolution, but from the noise in the House he was scarcely audible. We understood him to say, that if the interpretation which gentlemen opposite wished to put upon the Standing Orders were acted upon in all cases, it would be very diffi cult for parties to get Bills of this nature through Parliament. Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought the consideration of the Clause ought to be postponed. Mr. WARBURTON thought that the present was the proper stage for passing the resolution proposed. After some observations from Sir . E. SUGDEN and the ArromsEY GENERAL, which were inaudible in the Gallery, Mr. P. THOMSON proposed that the debate upon the clause should be adjourned to Monday, which was agreed to. NEW POOR LAWS. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented several petitions from Kent, pray ing for the amendment of the New Poor.law Act. Lord J. RUSSELL said in the course of the Session, he would intro. diming a Bill for the amendment of certain portions of the Act.—(We believe this to be the purport of what his Lordship very indistinctly said.) COFFEE HOUSES. Mr. PRIME gave notice of a motion for the introduction of a Bill for licensing coffee-houses. CHURCH PROPERTY. The SPEAKER asked if any Gentleman had petitions to present on the subject of Church Property; if so, the House was then ready to receive them. Sir R. INGLIS presented several petitions from places in Yorkshire and Bedfordshire, praying against the application of any part of the Church property to any but ecclesiastical purposes. Sir GEORGE CLERK presented a similar petition from Stamford, amidst loud cheers from the Tories. Colonel SIBTHORP presented similar petitions from the Isle of Ely, and other places. Mr. Kelly, Lord Sandon, Mr. Goulburn, Lord Ashley, and several others, presented similar petitions, but we could not catch the names of the places, on account of the noise in the House. Sir F. TRENCH presented a petition signed by 2,000 British Manufacturers, praying for the adoption of some measure to protect their trade. YEOMANRY. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said before he proceeded with the busi ness appointed for that evening, he wished to make a few observa tions upon another subject. He found that, in consequence of the debate that had taken place with regard to the Yeomanry, an impression had gone abroad that it was the intention of Government, within some limited period, say within a year, to propose the reduction of the Yeomanry of the country. Now he could assure the House , that nothing that had come from her Majesty's Government tended at all to countenance such a proposition. Hi s own opinion was, that it would be better to constitute a militia force on a basis more extensive than it was at present. Of course, if that militia force were constituted by means of an Act of Parliament, it would hereafter come to be a question, whether it would be better to keep up that force and the yeomanry together, but nothing that he had said tended at all to imply that it was the intention of the Govermnen t to put an end to the yeomanry altogether. Sir R. PEEL was afraid the explanation which the Noble Lord had given would not remove from the minds of many persons interested in the maintenance of the yeomanry ,the impression under which thoy laboured in consequence of the debate the other night. There might have been an apprehension that it was the intention of Government to dis solve that force after a twelvemonth had elapsed ; but even if that apprehension were removed, there would still remain another unfortunate impression, because he thought the inference to be drawn from what the Noble Lord had stated was, that if in the case of an unforeseen disturbance, there should be an unfortunate necessity to apply for some stronger force, the yeomanry would not be that force.—(Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—What I stated the other night was, that I thought one of the great uses of a Yeomanry was to pre vent disturbances taking place, from the knowledge that that Yeomanry existed in the neighbourhood. What I stated further was, that I thought in the case of a disturbance, it was far more advis able to resort to a regular force.—(Cheers.) Of course, I do not mean to say, that if a sufficient number of regular forces do not exist in the neighbourhood, it. may not be advisable to resort to the Yeomanry; but I must still entertain the opinion that the calling in of the Yeomanry is far more likely to continuo and dissention in different parts of the community than the calling in of the regular force.—(Cheers ) Sir ROBERT PEEL—.I beg leave to ask the Noble Lord of what use will be the impression that there is a large yeomanry force in the neighbourhood, if ►here is to be another impression that such force will not be called out ?—(Loud Cheers from the Conservatives.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL —Now, really, what the Right Hon. Gentle man has Just said, makes it necessary for me to state what 1 had hoped I had clearly stated before. Ido not think it is the most desirable force to call out If disturbance exist ; but if there is not a sufficient force in the neighbourhood then the yeomanry must be re sorted to, although I wish another force should be in the neighbour hood.—(Loud Ministerial cheers.) THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, MAY 4, 183$. lands was necessary, and that an inquiry with that view would be proper ; and the other, that the most advantageous mode of inquiry would be by a Select Committee of the House of Commons. Now, with regard to the first of those objects, he thought that no very long argu ment was necessary to show that there were circumstances Connected with the existing system of managing Church property which con (bleed neither to the interest of the Church, to the interests of the in]. mediate holders of that property, or to the interests of the eoiriniunity at ^-.ween Church property and other property in land thcrC Was • ' -* ncrsons holding it had only an immediate ' - their lives it went, not to ' " , ent in the sta. large. this obvious difreren-ce, interest in it for their lives, and that arts. their lisirs, bet to the individuals appointed to succeeo s— tion in virtue of which they became entitled to its revenues. It, the.._ fore, most naturally followed that the Bishop, or other owner for the timebeing, should seek, without any regard for the interests of those who should hold it next, to make as much out of it while in his possession as he could ; while on the other hand it was obvious that on general principles a tenure which might be a short one was a tenure injurious to the imprevement of the property. It was for this reason he i c , o o z: v c c e r i v t e o d i t c h t a t c li t u h r e ch i Legislature and.9 0,, ith i c n er t t h a e i n re c i o g L n t o ,u f lt H y ei f i o r r y a o g d a %e of ' twenty-one years of three !lees. One might suppose from that condi tion, and, indeed; it might have been then the prevailing notion that a lease for twentYsritie feats or for three lives was nearly similar; but of course they all knew diet 'One ntit the case, and that a lease for three lives was equivalent to at least siiffe et seventy years. But the Legis , lature that gave the power to which he aiiiiticti at various times altered ' its conditions, making with regard to some of thoo tram rules and re gulations which it did not extend to others. There was e'ne of those rules which made a very essential regulation in respect to Church 1 7 0 - eerty—namely, that which related to concurrent leases. If a Bishop should suppose that a sufficient fine had not been paid for a twenty-one ware or three lives' lease, it was made compeent for him, at the expi ration of each seven years, or of the third life, to grant what was termed a concurrent lease, by which another life was put into the original lease. That rule was not extended to the case of lands held by Deans and I Chapters. The consequence of that regulation was what might be expected—a great deal of doubt and difficulty on all sides— in many instances much disadvantage to the landholders under those leases ; but, chief in importance and extent, manifest dis. advantage to the Church itself. It was obviously the advan. tage of the Bishops, Dean and Chapter, or any other ecclesi astic holding Church lands in right of his temporary position in the Church, to obtain as large fines as possible, and hence was occa- ' sioned at various times very great detriment to the estates of the Church, and in many instances it occurred that the successor to a bishopric found, upon his obtaining possession of his See, that its re venues were very much diminished from what they formerly were. He should beg leave to read to the House some instances which had oc. ourred of property having been injured in the manner he had described. The first instance he should mention was dated so far back as the Res toration; and as it was detailed very clearly in two passages, the one extracted from Bishop Burnet's History of the Reign of Charles the Se cond, and the other from the life of Clarendon, written by himself, he should trouble the House by reading them. Bishop Burnet said:— " Almost all the leasesof the Church estates over England were fallen in, there having been no renewal for twenty years. The leases for years were determined ; and the wars had carried off so many men, that most of the leases for lives were fallen into the incumbents' hands. So that the Church estates were in them; and the fines raised by re newing the leases rose to about a million and a half. It was an unreasonable thing to let those who were now promoted carry off so great a treasure. If the half had been applied to the buying of tithes, or glebes for small vicarages, here a foundation had been laid down for a great and effectual re formation. In some Sees 40,0001. or 50,0001. was raised, and applied to the enriching the Bishops' families. Something was done to churches and colleges—in particular to St. Paul's in London j and a noble collec tion was made for redeeming all the English slaves that were in any part of Barbary. But this fell far short of what might have been ex. pected. In this the Lord Clarendon was heavily charged, as hating shown that he was more the Bishop's friend than the Church's. It is true the law made those fines belong to the incumbents; but such an extraordinary occasion deserved that a law should have been made on purpose. And with this overset of wealth and pomp that came on men in the decline of their parts and age, they who were now growing into old age became lazy and negligent in all the true concerns of the Church—they left preaching and writing to others, while they gave themselves up to case and sloth." The corresponding passage from Lord Clarendon's life was to this effect :—" The old Bishops who remained alive, and such Deans and Chapters as were numerous enough for the Corporation, who had been long kept fasting, had now appetites proportionable.—(Hear, hear.) Most of them were very poor, and had undergone very great extremities—soma of the Bishops having supported themselves and their families by teaching schools, and submitting to the like low condescensions—and others saw that if they died before they were enabled to make some provision for them, their wives and children must unavoidably starve; and therefore they made haste to enter upon their own. They called their old tenants to account for rent, and to renew their estate if they had a mind to it; so otst to the soon anh oea possessionns t t ,ntaKrn King g a t o f: ;fd.aag„ what .I trl i c e ,asetty n ot e rch w eaedly: e called aidet purchasers)fs:orlbmd because former ra under repaired a)rtei there e e dtnirneugtnort un o reasonable remained n t re u etlyoeoer pretence rdne (asaet : o s na ici a nne s infamous man r y iat c a a s in ce e e s : t eo l i r efs e ao r tsn e eh:e : ac e ni )Idu chu r ch ba appearedre h , i o rcae r hs. some ot her fit fiotdertedh:ettr,taebnremd offered t taifod them, nft leases o ,t l t d hhaeii,ndkc ifoutr rhteahht the refusalun expired, thereof,anel c a a n u d s es such they a had, rea 0 out na reasonable l o e f fine a conscience,was usual, s f u o forborne they to buy o the i)ed to inhehave nts The other, the purchasers (amongst which there were some very according to the clemency that was practised towards all sorts of men, it could be thought justice that they should lose the entire sum they had disbursed upon the faith of that government, which the whole kingdom submitted to but that they should, instead of the inheritance they had an ill title to, have a good lease for lives or years granted to them by those who had now the right. But the Bishops and clergy concerned had not the good fortune to please their old or their new tenants. They had been very barbarously used themselves, and that had too much quenched all tenderness towards others. They did not enough distinguish between persons ; nor did the suffering any man had undergone for fidelity to the King or his affection to the Church eminently expressed often prevail for the miti gation of his fine; or if it did sometimes, three or four stories of the contrary, and in which there had been some unreasonable hardness used, made a greater noise and spread farther than their examples of charity and moderation. And as honest men did not usually fare the better for any merit, so the purchasers who offered most money did not fare the worse for all the villanies they had committed. And two or three unhappy instances of this kind brought scandal upon the whole Church, as if they had been all guilty of the same excesses, which they were far from." Now, what occurred in the reign of Charles 11. might under the existing system of Church leasing he very often the case, and indeed instances were not wanting of something of th e same kind having occurred during the reigns of late sovereigns. There were two similar instances on record of Bishops having made in ordinate fortunes by availing themselves, to the great scandal of the Chnrch, and to the great detriment of its interests, of the laxity of the law in regard to church leases. He might mention one instance in which through the management of a Bishop a revenue of 11,0001. a year was reduced to one of between 4,0001. or 5,0001. a year. Many instances of the like nature might be adduced, but he would not fatigue the House by reading them in detail. The consequence of all this was, that in the end the Church property was greatly dilapidated ; and then the State was required to provide for that for which Church property, if it had been husbanded as it ought, would have sufficed to provide. (Hear.) The Noble Lord cited several other instances to the same effect; and observed that many more might be brought forward. It at was smallx c e disp o saled Y d a ngerous to allow matters of this kind to be left of separate Acts of Parliament, where a pr e . bend's incomeig l might be doubled, where a lessee endeavoured thee to get the best terms he could, and where the interests of the Church were left wholly out of the question. In many cases Church property was so disposed of where there was an increasing popula tion, and where the Church Commissioners had said, and said wisely, thrt additional means of religious instruction ought to be provided for that population. It a hundred, or even fifty years ago, a proper course on the subject had been adopted, the necessity for such a provision is ;rpurbloeupdte rhttheoycountry,c.tß glad e find ethiaabrd: that to p roposed ca::erl st:aa that a y t.h i : n Lyi e na u te i ek r d y . into thirty five, would not now exist.—(Hear, hear.) He was glad to hear cheers from to the Opposition benches. Although the Gentlemen who sat there had s e,r o olep u: sr li et t syo i h o r: be better regulated.— was conic when these thing some of which the fee simple was frequently alienated, and in (Hear, hear.) The number of Acts of Parliament for the regulation of ' see leases had been granted for 99 years. There was another c o s Cfi t i tvi a r :le a u n U c : m c e cbi o 'a s ) f t aan tine e n e for con nect ed th u p • t h o i i c ,e h rt h y e i n vra c s oa desirous o renewal of those leases of 40,0001., and another subject b i j o e n c g t ed the time to say in the counties of Durham and Northumberland. There was one in few words. Ile w a i l t iu h d e ed hu to rch th l of a fine of 100,0001. paid to the Dean and Cha p te r of Durham, which oug ht to have bee n a pp lied to Church p ur p ose s. It was evident this *Rine y might not to have been absorbed b y t he Dean and Chapter of D ur ham without a n y reference to the increasi ng demand for religious which instruct i on . Ile had thus stated various ways in this description o f property was he ld, and had been applied in a Ma nner not conform able to the orig inal intention with which it had been conferred. ft al, that the best way in which the wh o l e b j gea red to him ect could be in • qu i r ed into was by eferring i t to the consideration of a Select Corn. mittee of the Hones of Commons. When his Right Hon. Friend brought the subject forward last year, his estimate was that no less a e year could be obtained from this s um than 250, 000/. source by proper arrangements. That calculation was disputed by the other side of the House, a lmos t ever y Member of which denied its accur ac y, B ut w h at was, that one of these Right was very remarka ble Honourable Gen tlemen, hav i ng since had time to consider the qu es ti on, h a d stated that if the property in qcestion had been leased on per i o ds of thirty-four y ears instead of twent y .o ne , several millions vould have been lost to the country. The reverse was Isis (Lord J. Russell's) opinion ; and he had little doubt that by proper arrangements a n annual surplus of 300,0001. would accrue. When such, how e ver, were the differences of opinion, it was but just and fair that some in quiry should be instituted in order to ascertain the actual facts of the case. Her Majesty's Ministers might be wrong in their calculations ; e 1 1 e Iloneurable Gentlemen opposite might be right in theirs; but at l e ast this was clear, that it was very inconvenient to enter upon any consideration of time ultimate arrangement of the subject, while the facts on which alone that arrangement could be advantageously founded, were in doubt or denied. Other statements which had been made last year by his Right Hon. Friend were denied ; and those statements also ought to be made the subjeet of inquiry. It might be said that it would be better to make that inquiry in another manner than by a a Select Committee of that House. But if it were made by Government, or by any persons acting under the authority of Government, the accu racy of the result, would at once be denied by the other side. If it were made by the Church Commissioners, it would be influenced by the great discrepancy of opinion which, as he had already stated, existed among the members of the Church Commission as to the mode of managing the property in question. Lett, therefore, in such hands, all chalice of a satisfactory result might be relinquished. There was also another con. siderati°n • The house might like some acc ount of the p ast—to see whether any thing like a p rovident a ttention to the real interests of the Church had b een manife.sted, or whether, on the contrary, these inte rests had been entirely abandoned for the purpose of providing for the members of certain families. If such an inquiry as that were to be referred to the Church Commissioners, they could not enter into it without subjecting themselves to great odium; for they would be bound to institute an examination into cases in which Bishops and Deans and Chapters were concerned. It was not fit, therefore, that the subject should be referred to the Church Commission. Ought any other Coin. mission to be appointed 7, In general the Ilouse did not seem to thine that the appointment of Commissions, where it could be avoided, was desirable. At least he was sure that if the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln were present that Hon. and Ga llant Gent. would oppose the a pp oin tment of a paid commission.—(A laugh.) If, therefore, there was a necessity that an inquiry of the kind sh ould be instituted; If that inquiry could not be advantageously r eferred to the Church Com mission, or to any other commission ; if were it undertaken by Governinent, the correctness of time report would lead to endless dis p utes, what could be better th an to appoint a Select Committee of that House to inquire into the facts of time case; thus laying a safe foundation, on which Pai • !lament might obse rve shut afterwards legislate ? He begged leas e to time motion, with which he intended to conclude, would not in the slightest degree determine the future application of any increased value which it might be found practicable to give to Church leases. Un doubtedly tamely, that his opinion still remained what it was last year; if an annual increase could be obtained of 950,000/. or 260,000/. it would be better to apply it to putting an end to all the heartburnings and jealousies which at present existed on the subject of Church-rates ; and to prevent those disputes and conflicts which now annually took place in vestry meetings. A Right Honourable Gentleman opposite had stated that he had conferred on the subject with several of the Prelates of the Church Commission, and that it was their opinion that if an increased value could be given to the property in question it ought to be devoted to the increase of the spiritual instruction of the people. He did not deny that that was an object which deserved the consideration of Parliament; and that if it could be accomplished it was very desirable that that instruction should be extended to the W h o l e community. It was, however, a question of preference, and the answer to it must depend, in a great degree, on the amount that might be ob tained, and on the situation of the country at the time. If the amount should be as large as he supposed it would be, and if the excitement in the country, produced by the opposition of the Dissenters to the Church rates, Were not exceedingly violent, a portion of the amount might be so app.., "ed. But, otherwise, he thought the application recom. mended by his ht Honourable Friend last year was the best that could be adopted. Of however, he was sure, that after the OreseDt year, Parliament ought to apply itself to the establish. ment of some definite legislation on the subs,:l'—(Hear, hear, hear.) It would be exceedingly unjust to the lessees of Churc:: property if the , question were to be kept several years in suspense.—(Hear, heZ!' ) Even in their present state their property was not so valuable as that of pet. sons holding in fee simple. " Attempts have been made," said Mr. Butler, in his edition of Coke upon Littleton,' " to establish an obli. gation on landlords Is renew ; but they have not succeeded. The re newal, therefore, is still a matter of favour and of chance ; but is so far valuable, that it enhances the price of property on sales." His (Lord J. Russell's) object and wish were, for the sz.ke of the Church, for the sake of the lessee, and for the sake of the community, that this state of things should be altered. He was therefore prepared, in proposing the Commit tee, to propose that every possible light should be thrown by that Com mittee on the nature of Church property, with a view that, after the Committee had ascertained all the facts of the case, Parliament might take into consideration the best mode of legislating with reference !G the application of any increased value that it might be found prac. ticable :,^ Create. He had stated to the House what was the application which he shout! prefer : but t would be most inexpedient and unwise, in appointing a Select Committee, to bind them at all upon that point. When the Committee had made their report then would be the time for considering what further step to take. All that he now wished for was a fair, full, and honest inquiry, with a view of coming su ,':ecquently to a wise and deliberate determination.—(Hear, hear.) The le;;;.1.110 Lord concluded by moving the appointment of a " Select Committee to ' t ie quire into the mode of granting and renewing leases of the landed and other property of the Bishops, Deans, and Chapters, and other ecclesi astical bodies of England and Wales ; and into the probable amount of any increased value which might he obtained by an improved manage ment, with a due consideration of the interests of the Established Church, and of the present lessees of such property." Mr. LIDDELL, in rising to move a direct negative to the Noble Lord's motion, felt himself in a position of extreme difficulty, in conse. quence of his connection with the county of Durham. But lie would Set according to the best of his own judgment on the subject. He con sidered the conduct of her I4fejesty's Government respecting it exceed. ingly reprehensible. By the agitation of this question, arrangements which had existed for three centuries lied been disturbed ; and that with. out blame to any of the parties concerned. The two grounds on which he should oppose the Noble Lord's present motion were—justice to the Church, and justice to the lessee. He considered that the revenues of the Church should be applied to the purposes of the Establishment ; and that there was so much want of spiritual instruction in the country, that no portion of those revenues ought to be diverted to any other pur. pose. He (Mr. Liddell) admitted that the present mode of granting Church leases might not, in all cases, be the way of improving Church property. But he admitted that only to a certain extent. The Noble Lord the Secretary at War last year came to the assistance of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this question. The Noble Lord had declared that on one side of the river Tyne—and be presumed the Noble Lord alluded to his own side, Northumberland—there was the ut most comfort, prosperity, and happiness; while on the other side of the river there was no improvement, but great deteriora tion ; and that the Nob'e Lord attributed to the neglect of the clergy, .to whom the property belonged. Now, as far as his (Mr. Lid. dell's) observation and experience went, he must declare that the state ments of the Noble Lord (the Secretary at War) with respect to the con. dition of the country on the south banks of the Tyne were wholly desti tute of foundation. In answer to the Noble Lord's statement, and in corroboration of his own, he would read a passage in a memorial pre. seined to the Chancellor of the Exchequer from South Shields. The lion. Gentleman here read the passage, the substance of which was, " that the memorialists held lands under the See of Durham, and that they viecOfd, with great alarm the proposition of applying money to to be obtained by a C'llange in the arrangement of Church leases to the redemption of Church-rates; that the agitation of the question had created considerable inconvenience; and t h at they derived great benefit from the manner in w hi c h th e l a nds were let at o... e _ s ent." Many great works had been commenced and were still going errs, ms. ch capital had been expended and was still in the course of being "p eru k e : , entirely upon the faith of a renewal of leases upon the same terms as :hose under which they were now held. These works would never have beer: undertaken, this amount of capital would never have been embarked, if the lessees could for a moment have anticipated such a change in the nature of their tenures, as that which would be effected if the proposition of the Noble Lord were carried into effect. Besides, what occasion was there for such a chauge ? Had any complaints been heard from the parties most immediately interested ? Had any petition complaining of grievances been presented either from the lessors or lessees ? Why, then, should their property be made liable to difficulty and danger, not from any fault of their own, but from the caprice of the Government ? Leaving that part of the subject, however, he would now proceed to make a few observations regarding the tenure of coal mines—an inter est of the greatest consequence in the north of England generally, and to the county of Durham in particular ; an interest, therefore, which naturally arrested a great deal of public attention in those parts of the country.. The colleries on the north of the Tyne having been much ex hausted, the best coals were now procured in the county of Durham ; and the Church was in possession of more than one-third of the coal.fields in that county in point of extent, and of more than ono-half in point of value. The Church had also a considerable property in lead mines; but, for the present, he should confine himself exclusively to coal.—(Hear.) Most of the colliers were worked by companies, the capital required being generally beyond the means of individual speculators. At the very outset the cost of sinking a pit was enormous; and in few instances could a colliery, with all its machinery, be brought into full operation under an expenditure of from 100,0001. to 200,000/. The first object of a Company was to secure a coal-field of sufficient extent to warrant the outlay of their capital ; and when this was pro cured, the next object was to secure a lease for such a term as they deemed most advantageous. The next step was to secure a right of way from the pit-mouth to the nearest point of embarkation. This frequently extended over a distance of seven or eight miles, and in many instances an exorbitant amount of money was asked for it. But in all cases where the surface of the land belonged to the Church, the neces. sary right of way was invariably given to the coal adventurers, upon the condition only that they should give a fair compensation to the lessee of the soil for the injury done to his property. Even if such a change were made as that proposed by the Noble Lord in the nature of tenures, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to prevent the grossest injustice being done to the lessees of collieriee. e confessed that he, for o ne , h a d no con fid ence i n th e G overnmen t "pop this matter. Their conduct betrayed them. He thought that from. the beginning they had shown a determination to avail themselves if possible, of the proceeds of this valuable property, in order to apply it to purposes of their own. There were some other points to which he should feel it his duty to advert. But in the first place he would state that it was his intention, in case his first motion of a direct negative did note ucceed, to move an amendment in accordance with that moved by his Right Honourable Friend the Member for the University of Cam. b. idge last s ear, the effect of which would be to direct the application of any available funds to the diminution of the evils arising from the want of adequate religious instruction to the people. This led him to another branch of the subject, to which he begged to direct the attention of the House. Admitting the great wealth of the Church in the county of Durham, he must remind the House and the country of the charities which had emanated from ecclesiastical bodies in that district. There was the great Bamborough charity, and many others, from which a large portion of the community obtained the highest advantages, all of which had their rise in the benevolence and liberality of the Church. It was, besides, to be recollected that the Bishop, Deans, and Chapter of Durham had established an university, and had, moreover, devoted large sums to the amelioration of small livings ever since the Bill of the Archbishop of Canterbury had enabled them to do so. But in spite of all their efforts much yet remained to be done. There were many small livings to be increased, many public charities to foster and support. This, of course, could not be done if they were deprived of their property in the manner proposed by the Noble Lord. Ile would beg to call the attention of the House to the very peculiar situation of the population in the diocese of Durham, particularly of that part of the population which was rapidly growing up in the vicinity of the great collieries which were every day coining ieto operation. The Noble Lord, the Secretary at War (Lord Howick), alluding to this Population in the debate of last year, directed the attention of the House to the vast number of Dissenters that was to be found in it. " Probably," said the Noble Lord, " there is not a county in England in which dissent is more prevalent than in Durham. Why ? Not because there is - any deficiency in the means of instruction on the part of the Church, but because the great mass of the property in the county belongs to the Church, and consequently gives rise to many and frequent collisions between the lessees and the owners of the property.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Pease.) He (Mr. Liddell) was not surprised to hear that cheer from the Hon. Member for South Dur. ham, who of course could not be expected to entertain any feelings of sympathy towards the Established Church; but he confessed he was surprised to hear such an argument come from the lips of the Noble Lord. He for one could not imagine that men would be so base as to abandon their religious principles because they could not agree upon matters of worldly interest; he was moreover fully convinced that the dissent in the county of Durham did not arise from so base a cause. The true cause of it was to be found in the absence of churches in those new societies which were constantly springing up where fresh collieries were established, and where the dissenting teacher generally con. trived to move in advance of the Church. This afforded an addi tional proof that the county of Durham needed the whole of its cede. siastical revenues to supply it with an adequate amount of religious instruction. The Honourable Gentleman then read an extract from the first charge of Dr. Maltby, the present Bishop of Durham, who, in speaking of the large abstraction, amounting to no less a sum than 13,0001. a year, which had already been made, and, as he thought, unnecessarily, from the revenues of the bishopric of Durham, and transferred to another part of the kingdom with which the diocese of Durham had no connection, stated that " he did not disapprove of the alienation of a portion of the revenues of that see, large as they were in amount, and that he thought a reasonable deduction might be made, with great benefit to the Church, and yet leave a sufficiency for the personal dignity of the bishop; but he was nevertheless of opinion that a larger sum might have been appropriated to the support of that dignity than had been done by the Legislature, and by which the bishop might have been better enabled to exercise that degree of liberality which became his station." He (Mr. Liddell) considered this an important a imission as coining from a Prelate who had obtained his appoint ment under the present Administration, and he conceived that the Noble Lord, on hearing that language proceeding from one of his own bishops, exposed himself to the difficulty of this dilemma—either, on the one band, to feel himself bound to ac. knowledge the truth of the Bishop's appeal, and express a desire to concede to that appeal; or, on the other, to give over proclaiming him self a friend of the Church, and of holding language which he (Mr. Liddell) could not help regarding as little short of hypocrisy, while the Noble Lord was pursuing a course of conduct which the real friends of that Church felt to be most outrageous against its best interests.— ( Hear, hear.) If the motion for a Committee should be carried, lie begged to give notice that he should move, in consonance with the course pursued by his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Goulburn) on this subject last year, that the following words be added to the motion of the Noble Lord ; namely, " with the view of applying such amount to the gradual diminution of the evils which flow from the deficiency of the means of religious instruction and pastoral superintendence by Ministers of the Established Church." Mr. HUME had no doubt that the Honourable Member considered himself to be a good son of the Established Church ; but for his part, he (Mr. Hume) could not regard the Honourable Gentleman to be an honest son of that Church if he sought to support it at the expense of those who were not connected with it. Why did not the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) who was now sitting beside the Honourable Gentleman, or the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir James Graham) who was on the other side of the Hon. Gentleman, why did not they when in power bring ferward a proposition to appropriate the surplus re. venues of the Church for the benefit of the inferior clergy ?—hear, hear, from Sir Robert Peel) Was it ever done ?—(Hear, hear, again from Sir Robert Peel.) If it ever Was done, it had not come to his (Mr. Hume's) knowledge.—(Renewed cries of " Hear, hear," from Sir Robert Peel.) He did not know of any appropriation of the revenues of the Bishops, for the benefit of the inferior clergy.—(hear, hear, from the same quarter.) However, that had nothing at all to do with the question before the House.—(Laughter froth the Opposition.) The Hon. Member for North Durham haul expressed groat solicitude for the maintenance of the Established Church. Now, if the Hon. Gentle man entertained any real respect for religion, and was anxious to support that Church, which he conscientiously _believed to be the best, ought he not to evince his sincerity by proposing to give it that support by means which were already in his own power ? Was it fit and proper to put his hands into the pockets of thil Dissenters, and rob them of their property, in order to maintain a Church from which they conscientiously dissented? What was the proposition of the Noble Lord ? Nut to rob the Church; this he (Mr. Hume) most distinctly denied; but to require it to support its own fabrics out of its own resources. Robbers of the Church, indeed Why,. all history proved that if there were any robbers of the Church liter were to be found within its own fold. The Bishops themselves had been its greatest spoliators. There was not a single Dissenter in the country who had ever had one farthing of the property of the Church, while on the other hand there was hardly a clergyman of the Church who had not received some portion of a Dissenter's property. The com— plaints of the Honourable Gentlemen against the Government, Will> stepped forward as moderators between the Dissenters and the mem bers of the Church, with a view to do justice, if possible, between them, were most ungenerous. He (Mr. Hume) had seen nothing in property of the Chu rc h. O n t h e contrary, h e conduct pf the Noble Lord which s h owe d t h e least desire on his part to (Mich on the considered the bottle Lord to be one of th e greatest friends of the mo „ , ove from it the Church, by endearOttring to provide a fund f or i ts maintenance out of hostility of the Dissenters its own means, and thereby who had hitherto been obligedlo ~ , ;:Mo r t it. He had already declared , the House to the way in it to be his opinion that the greate , t : obbers of the Ch urc h were t h ose whose duty it especially was to uphold it in all its integrity. A s a proo f . of the justice of his assertion, he would refe which the manor of Tottenham, formerly belottg;.: l B to the Church, hail been wrested from it, and appropriated to a noble fa.mily, a member of , which seas, when the act of spoliation was committed, p,ime minister of this country. By a private Act of Parliament, all the pro:rty from St. Giles's up to Hampstead, worth nearly ,two millions of tritneY, was alienated from the church, reserving only to the Dean of St. Pau.''s the paltry sum of 3001. a year. To this act of spoliation it was proved that those who were called the guardians and protectors of the Church lent their aid. Could the Honourable Member for North Durham name to him any Dissenter who had ever robbed the Church of one farthing of' money, or one acre of land? This was not the only instance than be adduced to justify him in asserting that the most professed and ardent friends of the Church had been its greatest spoliators by ni3 , - •ropriating large portions of Church property to the benefit of private families. With these indisputable facts before them, was it e not too ich that the Hon. Gentlemen should charge the Govern. m bringiri forward the present measure for their own peculiar nt ~,ith purposes? the oNeet which the Government had in view? y were rg e e bodies Whatrf menanxious to a put :% wit the discontent now prevailing among la ,tai,2 . ished Church, deeming it neith e r t between the Dissenters and ]'hey v i _ t fi l t ie tii m ig e n m o b r esresem:flythtahtatCtlhnierecxhissthhoigulds7-wtb'eallo:Yed further to go on. It was time that the Dissenters should be no longer - subjected to the onus which they had for a century past been compelled to sustain. He was told, indeed, that it was the law. Granted; but they were in a constant state of change, and it was the duty of the Government to ada'pt the law to the circumstances of the time. It was not intended that one single lessee should be injured by the present measure; but he would affirm that the present leases had been improperly made, and that an inquiry ought to be instituted with a view to ascertain whether any surplus revenue could be realized for the purposes contemplated by the Go vernment. ..... Mr. GOULBURN observed that the House would hardly concur with the lion. Gentleman in the assertion that his (Mr. Goulburn's) Right lion. Friend who then eat near him (Sir Robert Peel) had, when in office, forborne to take measures for curing the evils arising from the unequal distribution of ecclesiastical revenues, because the House would recollect that his Right Hon. Friend was the Minister to propose that ft Commission should be appointed especially to inquire into the cede. siastical revenues, with a view to remedy those enormous evils which prevailed in the country, namely, the destitution of the people for want of spiritual instruction and pastoral superintendence. The question with which they had to deal was, as the Noble Lord had stated, whether it was fitting a Committee should be appointed to inquire into the management of the Church property; and whether, if such an inquiry were to take place, the surplus revenues which might be derived from it ought to be applied to the religious instruction of thepeople, or other pur poses. In urging his views of this question upon the House, the Nobie Lord commenced his speech by an attempt to defend the Government, swots whom he said the general imputation had been cast of their having a dis,in. sition to invade the property of the Church, and to misappropriate its re.. venues. The Noble Lord stated, and stated truly, that that was the general imputation cast upon the Government throughout the conntry. In making that admission he quite concurred with the Noble Lord, that he had stated what was the general feeling; and if he (Mr. Goulburn) were asked whether he considered that that feeling was a correct onc, he could not deny that there was in it a great deal of truth. The way in which the Noble Lord was dealing with the property of the Church was well calculated to create an impression that he did not view that property s being in its nature strictly confined to the purposes for which it was Or i bs ;:ially intended; namely, ecclesiastical purposes, according to the wants of the Church. The argument by which the Noble Lord defended himself agatiest what he thus stated to be the general and popular feeling, was this he first :retailed the gross amount of the revenues of the Church, and then stated thee the Government had afforded protection to that portion of Church property consisting of tithes, by commuting tithes into a rent-charge; that they had secured adequate incomes to the Bishops; and that no measure which they intended to pursue was calculated to diminish the present amounts of those incomes. By thus showing that the object of the Government was the maintenanee of the present income of the Church, the Noble Lord conceived that he had satisfactorily defended himself and his colleagues from the charge of . having a disposition to invade that property. lie (Mr. Goulburn) would, however, on the other hand, say, that if the object of the Noble Lord's measure was to prevent the possibility of making any improve. anent in Church proporty ; if it were meant that, in .111 time to come, whatever might be the improvements in other species of property, or however great might be the want of religious instruction by the growth of the population and the increase of knowledge, there should neverthe less be no power for improving the property of the Church, and of in creasing the means of affording religious instruction to the people, he would say that the Noble Lord, in prososing such a measure, and making such a declaration,- would sufficiently show that he was not sensible of the real objects for which Church property was originally created, and that by doing away with the possibility of in creasing it by improvement he did as effectually invade the property o the Church and destroy its usefulness, as if he had proposed to des with the actual income which that Church at this moment possessed. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Liddell) had adverted to the property which the Church possessed in mines in the county of Durham, and had pointed out the impediments which would be thrown in the way of its improve meat if the Church were not allowed to take advantage of the increas ing value of such a description of property. What hope could be en tertained, when this measure should be brought into full operation, that there would be means of preventing the population of that district. from becoming barbarised and uncivilized for want of religious instruc tion ? He should like to know what would have beets the situation of this country now, if previous Ministers bad acted upon a syste m similar to that now proposed by the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) Th c the they Church t,em s eso into t pr t e h s e ent present . measure involved the principle of converting the udilini.tt.ahretesestaetfeshiomhslseerss, possessed. of The rent modecliargbeys which the e Noble Lord proposed to augment the means which were to be at his dispose: for public purposes was, that the clergy In future, in stead of being territo;:al possessors, should be th e mer e holders of a rent charge issuing out o. the estates heretofore their own property, In so doing, the Noble Lord would materially change the security oe that property. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had said that the Dis senter hail a right to object to pay monele out of his own estate, which was to be made applicable to religious purposes which he did not approve of. If this argument were well founded, he would ask the Hon. Gentle man, supposing a Dissenter to be the party by whom this rent charge was to be paid, whether he thought that such a rent charge would not be considered a greater grievance than the petty charge now imposed upon him in the form of Church-rates ? In the first I pace, then, lie contended that the Noble Lord was by the present measure invading Church property, inasmuch as he deprived the Church of all future increase of that property by its gradual improvement ; and, in the next place, he invaded it by di. minishing its security and altering its character. It was for these reasons that he should now meet, es h e b e d met before, the mo tion of the Noble Lord with a direct negative. He agreed with the Noble Lord that this question ought to be settled ; but was it likely to be satisfactorily determined by the appointment of a Committee ? The Noble Lord had said that he would not enter into the question of appro priation. Oh, no, that was open to the consideration of the Commit. tee; " and if," said the Noble Lord (and he perfectly agreed with that opinion), " atter the Committee shall have reported, the Louse of Com mons continues perpetually debating the question of appropriation without coining to any decision, it will prove fatal to the interests of the country." What, then, was the obvious courts of proceeding ? If the differences with regard to appropriation must be ultimately set. tied in order to ensure the tranquillity or the interests of t::e parties concerned, was it not plain and obvious that they ought to settle first the question of appropriation, which was indispensably necessary, Ac cording to the Noble Lord's own views, to the final settlement of ash: question, and then enter into the inquiry, not by a Committee, but through the ordinary channels of the advisers of the Crown, as to the best mode in which the surplus should be appropriated? What must be the necessary consequence of an inquiry before a Committee, what were the fasts to be inquired into, and what were the reasons on which the Noble Lord grounds his n peliea tion for such a tribunal ? lie thought the first reason which the Nobly Lord had stated seas that his Right Hon. Friend near him (Sir It. Peel) had disputed the correctness of certain calculations made as to the value of reversions by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. To clear up the doubts on this point, it was necessary, it was said, to appoint a Committee. Why, of wLont did the Noble Lord mean to constitute this Committee? Waa it to be composed of senior wranglers, men habituated to the cal culations of annuities, or did he mean that it should include those only whom he seemed disposed to nominate in the course of the last Session ? Did he think that the opinion of sixteen Gen. tlemen of a Select Committee as to the correctness of arith metical calculations could add to the value of statements made to that House? Surely the Noble Lord would not maintain that a Committee of that House ought to be appointed simply for the purpose of ascer taining the accuracy of calculations, and saying whether or not rever sions were of a certain value ?—(ilear, hear.) But another important object was to ascertain the doubtful point, whether the Bishops should be allowed to take 5 or 7 per cent., which the parties paid to them for renewal But even if the Connnittee,' when formed, should be able to clear up the doubt as to the value of annuities, and to report the facts relating to the question (which any man with ordinary ability, who was willing to take the trouble might solve) as to whether 5 or 6 per cent. was taken on fines, these were questions with which that House had now nothing to do. When the Right Ilon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer came forward, and wanted 250,0001. last year for Church-rates, it was Important to know whether his calculations were accurate or not. But the question now was as to the better manage ment of Church lands and property, through means of a Commit tee. It had ceased to be matter of calculation, and it had now become a qeestion of principle, whether, by the appointment of a Coin. mittee, an inquiry of this kind was best conducted. The Noble Lord had also to7d them that it was necessary to go into Committee, because certain Acts of Parliament had been passed, dealing with Church pro perty in a manner of which he did not quite approve. He could not agree in the opinion, if Parliament had interposed to give relief from the restraints of the law when found inconvenient to the party possess. ing this property, and this after it had bees entailed—be could not, he repeated, concur in the view that this interference afforded any ground whatever for instituting an inquiry as to the circumstances under which it took place. But another greend fir this inquiry, stated by the Noble Lord was, the great misappropriation of the large incomes which the Deans and Pi clientis of Dii ham thrived from that See. The Noble Lord told them that large fines were received on the renewal of leases, and that these were not applied to the religious instruc. tion of the people.—(Heat.) Now, whether that were the case or not, he was not prepared to determine; but, if he were to be lieve the statement made by his Honourable Friend the Member for Durham, who opened th 0 debate, lie should say that if there was any one See more than another in which the income of the prelates had beets ap; hid to the putPo , e of promoting the cause of religion, the Sari of Durham was the bishop, is by which it would be found that the greatest advantage had b.en conferred. Ile would tell the Noble ie.rd what course Goverement ought to take. If they deemed the management of Church property capable of improvonont, they ought to look into the statutes connected w th the subjsct, and see an what Way it might here. w after be regulated. Let the m sec ho the altered circumstances of the times required that regulations should be adapted to the present state of the property, and let them, having made up their minds as to the neces. allyo f a ch ange, c ome down and proposes to Parliament, on th e i r o w n r e. sponsibility, the measures which they: might think necessary to remedy the evil they bad discovered --s(Opposition' cheer's:) Wit the Govern: men t shrunk from that task ; they had neither the ability nor courage KO undertake it, and they preferred Giro .ving the inquiry on a Committer. and trusting to a chsepter of accidents to see whether the termination of the inquiry, after three or four Sessions, might be such as to CHURCH PROPERTY. Lord JOHN RUSSELL, inrisiiigtOl;;POse a Select Committee to inquire into the mode of granting and renewing L eases of the landed and other property of the Bishops, Dea ne , and Chap ters, and other ecclesiastical bodies of E ng l an d and Wals, and into the probable amount of any increased value, which would be obtained by an improved management, with due consideration of the in terests of the Established Church, and the present lessees of the Property, said this was a subject of great importance, and one which had not been brought forward in the present Parliament; and he had therefore at first thought it would be desirable to state generally the nature of the propositions which had been brought forward by the Go vernment, either in conjunction with or separately from the Eccle. siastical Commissioners, with regard to the Established Church of England and Wales. But upon further consideration he thought that this would be inconvenient, as tending to mix up with the sub ject under their consideration other and various questions, lie thought, however, that in bringing forward this subject, that was rendered neces sary, by frequent appeals which were made to the public, representing the Government as disposed to deprive the Church of that which legitimately belonged to it. There was no proposition which had ever eman a t e d from the Government, which would deprive the Church, which had hitherto enjoyed it, of that income which belonged t i t h er to the hierarchy or to the lowest Curate of the Establishment. He would now proceed to state shortly the amount of the revenues of the Church, as stated in the returns of toe Ecclesiastical Commission appoi n t e d before the Government of Lord Grey came into office. By those returns it appeared that the gross annual revenue of the Are piscopal and Episcopal Sees was 181,6311; that the gross an nual revenue of the Cathedral and Collegiate Churches was 9.84,241/., and the gross annual separate revenues of the members of the Cathedral and Collegiate Churches was 75,854/., and that the gross annual revenues of the benefices was 3,197,4251, making altoge ther the gross annual sum of 3,728,9511—(Hear, hear.) Very nearly the whole of those revenues were appropriated to those purposes —to the repair of the cathedrals, and to pay other expenses properly belong. ing to the Church. The net revenues of the Archbishops and Bishops amounted to 160,2921., giving an average income to each of 2,956/- The annual revenues of the cathedrals and abbeys were 208,287/. giving for the support of each of the members on an average 6641. (as we understood). The net annual revenue of the benefices was 340,7241. Now, neither by the Act respecting the commutation of tithes,, nor by the Act providing for the disposal of the episcopal reve nue, nor by the Act which they introduced last year respecting Bishops' leases, had they (the Government) proposed that this gross income of the Church should be in way diminished.—(hear, hear, hear.) 'raking the increase which had taken place in many of the rent charges, owing to the Tithe Commutation Act, and taking also into account the fees whirls had been taken in places where small incomes had been returned to the Commissioners, he thought that the gross annual revenues of the Church might be stated at about 4,000,0004, or the nett annual revenues a t not less than 3,500,000/. That was the property which the Commissioners proposed to distribute, still maint a inin g the Church in the possession it. Whether it is fit or right that th e A rc hbi s h o p o f C an t e rbury and the Archbishop of Durham should have 20,0001. a year each, or that those incomes should be diminished as the Commissioners recommende d, or whether the Chapters should be reduced from the present num ber of twelve, down to four Members, as the Government had proposed; this at least could not be doubted or disputed, that however the revenue' of the Church were te be distributed, that income, according to all the propositions which the present Government h a d ever b roug ht forward, was continued to!the Church—to be s till the property of the Ch urch — for all the purposes of religi ous instruction, for which it tva' originally conflded to the cl erg y.—(ll ear.) He must say, th a t he should have thought, su c h b e i ng t h e case, some of the vitu peration that had been lavish e d on Mi nisters might h a ve been spared, and those who att en d e d po li t i cal dinners might h av e stated what really was the f ac t, i nstea d of stating the direct con trary.— (Cheers.) Supposing it was said th ere s h ould be no reform i n t h e Church and ecclesiastical matters, th e sum arising f rom Church Le"' might be made producti ve o f great benefit to the Churc h. It was said if the property o f th e Church were directed b y Act of Parliament into other ch anne l s, i t might be appropriated to ca rry on the war in Canada, or any other secular purpoSe. Into that argument it was quite unnecessary that he should enter, because without attempt ing to say in what way the increased property to be derived from the better management of the church lands should be hereafter applied, he and his colleagues held it a fixed principle that it should be devoted to a purpose clearly anti deeply connected with the church.—(Chee rs ) Many Hon. Members o pp os i te, he believed, were of opinion that these funds should be appli e d t o the education of the people. Her Maj est y 's Government, on the contrary, thought th a t the prefera bl e a pplication would be to devote them to getting rid of what had constituted for many years past a subject of contest, dissension, and dispute--he meant church-rates; and with this view to dedicate them to a purpose which nobody could deny was connected with the church, namely, to the re • pairs of the fabric of the church itself—(Bear, hear, hear.) Having stated thus much with respect to the general object he and his colleagues had in view, and presuming that it was neither necessary, or indeed ex. pedient, that they should then discuss or decide what should be the eventual application of th e fund which it was expected wou ld be created, he should a t once address himself to what he consi dered were the two prints for their immediate considerati on ...—the one being, that some change in the system of leasing Church