The Sun. — London, England, 1818-04-16 00:00:00

should 14e laid by thoce measures upon the people. - D., sting tio k s of the proposed Address, which at lie regarded as unseasonable, he certainly :11.uild, if the . (piest ion were put, vote against it. .:The Duke of ATHOL expressed nearly similar seiviau lie fluster! that the necessary provi sions mould 'n‘i m.ade, and for any thing that had been s =id th .y.ltati no reason to think otherwise, without ;&,e necessity of adding to the burthens ot the people. There could, therefore, be not the least neeet•sity for SHCII an Amendment to the ori ginal Address. Laid ROLLE would support his Majesty's Mini m, rs on.-this occasion, us he would On every other where he thought they acted rightly, arid he con fi trusted the necessary arrangements in the present instance would be made without laying any .additional , burthens on the people of this cintntry. Lord de D.UNSTAN'VILLE observed, though he , entertained not the least objee . tiOn to a liberal proVish:n for the illustriims, personages in ques tion, yet as he felt the greatest repugnance to the least addition being wade to the burthens of the country, he should, as it may possibly tend to obviate such a contingency, support the Amend- Ment, Lord HOLLAND spoke at 'some length on the occasion. lus i tead of the present being, as con tended,: an .unfit time for the 'Amendment, he thought it peculiarly proper. On his view of all that had from the Noble Earl, he was de cidedly of opinion that the introduction of an amendment of the kind into the Address was desirable. Much of'what the Noble Earl '-said was air defence of . his original intention. Such an intention, therefore, may, if the means presented thentselves, be recurred to again ; and in such view, he, deemed it proper the opinion of . the House should be expressed as in his Noble Ftiend's Amendment, The Noble _Earl's idea, also, that the subject should be considered only on gener,al principles, fortified him in the opi nion that some amendment was necessary. Every care shouldlie taken, in the present impoverished and heavily,laden situation of the people, not to arht in the smallest,degree to these burdens. And wken he considered the vast and unparalleled sa crifices already wade •'!,y the people of this 'coun try for upholding the splendour of the Crown, it was the impelions duty of the Legislature to fake care that no more sacrifices should be made on that score. lodeed, he thought that many re tre.richineufs might. he made in the present Royal E.tablishments. Much of Court pageantry, as by no !Ileitis essential to the constitutional splendour of the Crown, may and ought to he abolished, and which, so tar from degrading Use Royal Qfke, would give it more real dignity in the eyes of the people. He wouli, therefore, !void for the Amendment. The Earls of LAUDERDALE and GROSVENOR briefly delivered their sentiments—the fornier seeming to incline against the Amendment as proposed and the latter decidedly in favour of it. The Question was then called for, and being pub, the Amendment was negatived without a ; and the priginal Addres.s afterwards voted by their Lordships. T;te Address was ordered to be _presented to hiS Royal . Highness the Prince Regent in the usual way, and the House adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OFD, COMMONS.. Mr. Hunitrsos (from the Rank) preiented an Account of theßank Nites and Babk Post Bills in Weekly circulation, from the Sd of March - to the 7th April.—Ordered to be Printed. Mr. BRAPIAY (from the Mint) presented a Return, pur suant to Address, of the Total Number of Soverigns and Half Sovereigns, and of the Amount of Gold and Silver'Coin is sued from the Mint in 1817.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. SMITE! (from Greenwicli•Hospital) presented Accounts of the Expenses s of the Royal Hospital for Seamen at Green wich, from April I, 1807; to 'March 31, 1818.—Orared to - Be on the Table. Mr. LACON presented a Petition from the Herring Mer chauts and. - Fish Curers of Great Yarmouth, praying for the 11,:epeal of the Salt Duties.—Ordered to be referred to the. Committee on the Salt Laws. Mr. S. BOUIINE presented a Petition from the' Church wardens and Parish Officers of 'Deptford, praying that their Parish may be included in the number to he affected by the Bill for altering and amending, the . Poor Laws.—Ordered to lie on the Table. :11;LAND presented a Petition from a Friendly Be nefit Society in Devonshire, praying that they might he al lowed the benefit of investing their money directly in the public funds; wit:int the intervention of a Saving Pank.— Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Alderman ATMNS presented a Petition from a Pro prietor of a Waterloo Bridge Annuity, against the Vaterloo Bridge Bill.:LOrdered to lie on the Table. The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND presented a.Pc talon from the Faculty and Advocates of Edinburgh against the Copy Right Bill.—Ordered to,lie oft the Table. - The Committee on the Offenders' Conviction and Reward Bill was postponed till Monday. ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS. - Lord G. BERESFORD appeared at the Bar, and stated the Prince Regent to have.bee❑ waited - upon with the Address of that House on the Marriage of the Princess Elizabeth and the Prince. of Hesse Homberg, to which his Royal• Highness had been pleased to return a most gracious Answer, which his Lordship then read. The Answer expressed, in the usual terms, the satisfaction of the Prince Regent at the interest taken .by theiHouse in the happiness of the Royal Family; - .On the motion of Mr. CURWEN, Returns of ,the number of Coal Wharfs in the Isle of Man, and of the quantity of Coals exported there from Whitehaven, were 'ordered to he laid befort; tile House.' Sir It. PEEL presented a Petition from the Manufacturers of Great and Little Bolton, in favour of the Cotton Ma.. 11- factories' Regulationßill. 7 Ordered to be printed. PANCItAS POOR BILL: Mr. MELLISH moved the second reading of the Pancras Poor Bill. , The - SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, the measure was so un necesary, so uncalled for, that he should certainly oppose it. The Directors of. the Pour, now in office in that Parish, were persons whose-character and rank in life were such as to secure the Puor proper treatment. The present Bill went to provide, that Elections of the Directors of the Poor should take place annually.. The present system saved the parish the expellee of such elections, as well, as the tumult and incon- Venience eOmnionly arising therefrom. ik moved, that the Bill-should be read a second time on that day six months. - Sir EGERTON BRYDGES supported the Bill. Mr. PETER MOORE bore testimony to the high character of the Directors,..and spoke in favour of the Amendment. - Mi. BYNG suptiorted the. Amendment.. Sir J. GRAHAM stated the Bill of 1803 (under which Di rectors of the Poor had been chosen) to have; been necessarily culled fur, as the annual elections which had till then taken plat were di4graceful to the parish, and to the neighbourhood 'of London. He should support the aifiendment,and he hoped In a future year the parishioners would come for Ward for a Bill to authorize - them to place the other concerns of the pa rish under - a similar direction. ..„ After a:few words from •Mr. BENSON and Mr. FORBES, -the amendment was carried. Bill was consequently lost. _______ ( OTTON MANUFACTORIES. Lord STANLEY presented a Petition from certain Indivi duals connected,with Cotton Manufactories in the county of Lancaster, against "the Cotton Manufactory Regulation Rill. After- a desUitury!'conversatiou, in wlkich Sir It: I'EEL, .Mr. FINE.Ar, and other Hon. Members pa)tiCipated, Lord STANLEY, in reply, contended those opposed to the . . . Bill ought to have an opportunity afforded them of proving the imputations which bad been thrown on their chatActets were unfoninled. Mr. Puti,Ltrs rose to speak on the question, but the _dis cussion was terminated by Mr. PEEL, who remarked that the siillri,4 proper time tor ent riin.,,. upon .this subject would arrive nn Friday, when'tbe It Would - rfiime - before the House as an Order of the Day.-1 Petition was:ordered to belirinted. Mr. GREINfFELLsprXe, but from tire-tioise which irre . ridried in the House, coutajOrt J2 e.heori iv the gallery.l4le-ws nntlerstood to rise for the purpose ol postpeniik a motion, that the import:63i litusiness to come before thelfouje might be proceeded in withoi , t delay. . .. , PROVISION }:9IR THE ROYAL DUKES. On - the motion crie - LordCastlereagh the House resolved itself into — er 'Committee ,on the Prince. Regent's Message. The Message having been read, Lord CASTLEREAGH said, under any circum stances to call the attention of the House to a Message like that now about to come under their consideration, than which one of more import• ante to the best interests of the country never came §,efore Parliament, ,was a task which he could (t;o1 rise to perform without feeling. all it. difficulty. But the House must be aware, after the ten4er which had been manifested in (he pre vious debates which had taken place on this subject, that it became peculiarly his duty to offer the fullest explanation of the grounds on which Mi nisters had deliberately recommended that course which had been pursued on't his occasion. Among all the paint - id and difficult 'duties which devolved upon the NlMisters of the Crown in that House, there was no class mote. painful to ps.r.forin than that which required 'them to call upon Parliament to make arrangements that affected the Civil List, or to grant a special provision for particular mem bers of the Royal Family,. However gieat the attachment of that ,House to ,the family on the throne,' and however they might feel that they themselves were interested in up! olding the digniq-of the Crown, there was no principle more ! closely interwoven with the working of a free' Constitution, like that under which we had the happiness• to live, than that vigilant jealousY,of Ministers which never tailed Jo &splay itself on all that regarded the "IThrone. That in modern times the 'House had, been so frequently upon to consider of questions connected with the Civil - List, 'arose in a great measure out of that arrangement which had been called for by the House, for the benefit of the people, in the twiner, part of the present reign, and which had he n cordially acceded to by the Crown. By this a great change had heen'made in the Constitution os . the country: All the great sources of independence which formerly belonged to the Crown had been surrendered to that House, to be administered fur the public benefit, and this had made it necessary to come to Parliament 'to make a' specific provi sion for those exigenciei which might arise. The, House must therefore feel, that if in former times such questions were not so often brought before Parliament as they had been latterly, it was be cause on Sikh. occasions the charges necessary . .to be' borne could be.met by the revenues of the Sovereign,"arising out of the independent .pro perty of the Crown, - without the intervention of the Legislature. For these, till that arrangement •was made to which he had already:alluded, the Crown had the means of prOviding, without com ing to Parliament. He did not state thiS with a view of turning the House from the path of duty (nor would he do so even if - he could think such an attempt would succeed), to provide that which ought not•to be provided. His only object - Was to shew, that if the applications of the rei4ning Family to Parliament had been more frequent than those who had gone before them, it was not be cause they had been more improvident than their predecessors, but in consequence of the reve nues, which formerly belonged to the Crown, having been given to that House, on its binding itself to provide foe the wants of the Royal Fa s . mily, as circumstances might require, from time • to time. On the present occasion, remembering these things, be was confident the House, with out deserting-the interests of their Constituents, would discharge their duty to the CrowtE. The present was a question in Which the people had the deepest interest, and while the House were. , careful not to do more than was necessary, he was satisfied they would not be deterred, by-any popu l i - lar clamour that might have been raised, from 4 7 1 ing that which they should feel was necessary to support the splendour of the Throne. The House would forgive him, if, after what had.pasied, he should trespass longer on their time while ex- plaining what Ministers had thought it their duty to propose to Parliament, than would have been necessary under other circus's - stances. To him this ! appeared necessary, for he would not suppose any Member stood pledgetrto the decision be would ultimately come to, or any particular line of.con dhet, whatever the reasons urged to justify their adopting a contrary course might be. He would not suppose suet) a determination had been form ed, though he would agr . ee, that in the present posture of the country, it was their duty, by every means in their power, to give it that added strength and security which could alone result from a good adminiitration of its finances. Though he 'might differ from the Gentlemen opposite in the application of the principle, he went along with them in thinking that it was the duty of the House in the present instance to look not only;at the object of the application now made to Parlia ment, but also at the actual situation of the coun try. While this principle was admitted, he was confident the .Committee would concur with hiM in thinking that some further provision aught to he made for those Illustrious Princes who- had been bred in the country, in the event! of their marrying, as it would be felt how desirable it was that the succession should be continued by a line of British Princes, WO no•becessity should arise for placing any .foreign Family on the. Throne. This, had been most strongly felt at the time Par liament met, and all minds were eagerly seeking for the means of repairing, as far as might be possible, the loss-which the country had sustained. This had been the most anxious wish of every goOd sub ject. Bad they not been pledged to do so by a paragraph in the Address, he was sure those who now heard him, in their loyalty to (he House of Brunswick, would have been very surry that the House should separate without having- their at tention directed to-this important question. It was the duty of Ministers to bring it forward, and how pressingly important was the occasion, from' the state in which the succession had been .placed' by-the melancholyevent of the death of the Princess Char- 1 lotte. At the present moment certainly there were , moy,illustrious individuals near the Throne, who, I horri and bred in this country, were. well acquaint; `ed.with its constitution, its customs, and its laws: But here tliNcene closed. Of the twelve suey I lying children of his Majesty, of s o tons ant five eNtit daughters,4tO one of them prese d aksuc,-, eesstir to the Throne. friOte,h the ll h pes f' l .se. 7l ' curing a regular succession were not closed, all the members of the Royal Family were so far ad vanced in life, that be was sure neither the Legis lature nor the country would wish any unnecessary delay to take place in' the adoption of nreastoes calculated to secure so de3irahle an object. The Duke of Cambridge, the youngest son, was now 45 years of age, and none of the Princesses were under 40. To excite some of the members of the Royal Ptimily to marriage, was now all object of much importance to the country ; and those il lustrious persoAages owed it, to themselves, to The Crown, and to the country, if they did not feel that from some circumsraoces marriage would -be ~perfectly incompatible with their own comfort, to look forward to a suitable union, that the succes sion might not be endangered. A single marriage %could by no means satisfy the country.' The Prince Regent, feeling this, had wished his britthers to, marry. He had slimed 'no preference to any particular member of the Royal Family, hut had marked his sense generally that the Crown - and the country had one common interest in the adoption of measures to preserve the line of succession from being interrupted. While attentive to eco nomy, the House would not forget what it was their duty to do, to provide for the comfort of theSe illustrious individuals in the'marriage state; and it would 'not be supposed that the allowancei which they enjoyed at present could be , sufficient for persons of their exalted reek, when the change of sitoationcontemplated had taken place. li re mained for him to state the considerations which had influenced 'Ministers when they took upon themselves to advise the adoption of those propo sitions which it had been' intended to lay before Parliament, and doing this he should state, with• out the slightest disguise, what had been in con templation ; and he should also state what, 'in deference to the opinion expresse'd in that House, they now thought themselves justified in pro posing. The first propositions had been 'modified as tar as was thought practicable, consistent with the plan which had been formed for carrying the marriages into effect, without degrading the indi viduals or involving them - in embarrassments at the. outset. That which they had first suggested could not be established on precedent, but the precedents which had received the sanction of the House had hail .moch influence on Ministers, while considerine this matter. ;They had looked back to what had been done on the occasion:of ' Royal Marriages for a number of years.. But that which might have been a :suitable provision 20 years, ago, would he found - so inadequate to meet the expences of a Royal Establishment now, that-such a comparison was-likely rather to mis lead than properly to guide the ylgment'of the House. When -a provision was'.l - nade -for her Royal Highness the Princess Charlotte; though site was not the immediate heir to the Crown, yet it bad so long been the hope and'the- expectation of the country that she would one day ascend the Throne,,that she was adopted as the heir apparent . by the people, and -Parliament, to give her confi dence in their attachment, liad made a provision for het, on the occasion of her marriage, which I was not only extremely liberal in itself, but which at the same time seemed to recognize her as the successor to the Crown. When the Duke of York married the PrincesS of Prussia in 1792, the circumstances under which - that provision was made for him, which then received the sanction of Parliament, were certainly: materially different from those under which it was now proposed that -a provision for a Royal Establishment shoOld be made The illustrious individual in whose favour that provision was made, was then distinguished by the situation in which be stood with respect to the Throne: Yet on no principle of reason ing could it be maintained that he was then as near the Crown as the Duke of Clarence must' be Considered to be at present. The King had not then reached an advanced 'age, and the Prince of Wales was a young man, and Unmarried. Yet for the Duke of York it had been thought right to grant a provision which, including 3;0001.. arising front military emoluments, amounted to 40,000 - per annum. lie was thus recognized by Parliament as standing very near to the Throne'. Now the Duke of York having no descendants, and the Prince Regent having lost the only child with which Providence had blessed him, the Duke of Clarence must be considered as standing nearer to the succession than -the Duke of - York did in 1792. He trusted the House, taking this into consideration, - would see that - MinisterS, in pro posing that the Duke of Clarence under such cir cumstances should receive what Parlianient had given to the Duke of York twenty-six years ago, when the value of money was much greater than at present, had treated the question as one purely British, and had been actuated by no motive that they could hesitate to avow. With respect to the juirior branches of the Royal Family, Ministers had no preciie guide' to go hYoss they bad in the case of the Duke of Clarence.• They, however, had wished to keep the expense within the nar rowest limits. - He had been unable to give the House the particulars of What was intended to be proposed, till an opportunity arrived for explain ing the considerations which ' had regulated the conduct of Ministers in deciding on the amount of the provision which they had taken upon them selves to recommend. They had thought it would be right to 6(1(1'12;0001: to the existing income of their Royal Highnesses, which would thus be raised from 18,0001. 'to 30,0001. per annum. The House, in looking at the position in which these Illustrious Personages stood, would see that there was a marked distinction between their situation; liying unmarried, and the siitiation in which they would be placed after marriage, exposed as they would be to all the contingent expellees of a fa mily. Out of the 12,0301. proposed to be granted, it should be remembered,-that, as in the case of the Duchess.of York, 4,0001.-was to be dedticted. He would then appeal to the House, if an addi tion 'of 8;0001. or 9;0001. to the income' of the Royal- - Dukes were not necessary, on their mar riage, to enable them to live in a manner corre' sponding with that exalted rank to which it had . been the will of Providence that they should be born. Such au augmentation.appeared to hi"' to be intlispensible, 'to gnitd against that calm c ; „ unity wl 7ch would „ otherwise occtin t y they 4'nevitab eNuvolved in debt, l-k. wo uld Pu t I tmhs, Ni questic Co the Hoselatint'; s t? the con!" v s notwifbata t udkag he itaitation which had been excited, and' which it was attempted t° instil into the public mind, and lie felt colt dent the reaspn,ibleness of the propositioocO(ll`,l` not ,be dented.--(Bear, hez i r, hear !)—lt C oal ' not but_be kuown that there was-a disposition ta , inflame the public mind on this subject ; hot would ask if Ministers were guilty of an improc` die dew act in proposing an addition of 8000/. 10 incomes of the Royal Dukes on their marriage( and if, without such an atigmentation, Ow" wholly exempted from-taxation, their means would •be sufficient, to carry them and their families 01; ' without 'incurring the reproach of being in de!' t The 12,0001 proposed was no t . a larger sum 08" appeared to be necessary, when it was retnem be . ,, r-. ~ ed that 4000/.• was to be deducted as an all ° l , 1 mice for their illustrious consorts. The case e t , the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester every ° I/ . 6 seemed disposed to look to as furnishing a cerle l e criterion, by which the judgment of the Fit s Might be guided, but no question had bee n "; cided in the abstract by that House which eat, exactly home to the case of these illustrious llyi viduals. The Duke of Gloucester marryl4o Princess already endowed by Parliament, At el , or not thought necessary ,to come to Parliamen t ° t . any timber provision, as altogether the iticolu 4 his Royal Highness and his Illustrious Con s % amounted to 28,0001., independent of the miliosir emoluments enjoyed by his Royal .Highness• be had not appeared to Ministers that it would ow consistent with the dignity of the Throne, de`i,ate. rately to place the sons of the Sovereign in a9 :of • of subordination and inferiority to the nellb e ; it the Grown 'and his Illustrious Consort. W b , % It - il was remembered, that no less than 50,00°,•;bac been granted to the Princess Charlotte, and o f the Duke of Gloucester enjoyed an ioco n- u al 28,0001., he thought it-would be felt they . e ° io a not deliberately have proposed to give thein i o at branches of the Royal Family any thing 1, 1 4 what they had intended to move for. I-A ° et, then at the situation of the Duke of Giou ce- poa they had thought it but decorohs to reconiTrig that the income of the younger sons of the P - or . should be augmented to 30,0001. on thei r Il ic es rage. had certainly flattered thea' se d i e that this proposition would be adopter' bY ec a . House in its largest extent, as it would have v 00 provialed for without throwing. new burtheilLeo* - the country. Though a determination had, nt a,e,' formerly come to in the case of one Roya l ' - o ts . it was intended on this occasion to prorsedot augmentatirm. In-' the first instance, whe n , I at, proposition came before the Home, it wot s ' ba t remembered it had received their sanction, lea was subsequently lost %viten it came 10 be e fi t it bodied in a Bill. He thou ht to accede tod(fo; proposition now would be to do that indivi dw he ir more than justice. When the Bill'was lost,- ' 'feelings exeitedagainst it were peculiar to tlbe a' ( l / 0 Imeet, which he apprehended et ere no long r og 1 existence. The measure was viewed wi tb ,aiect 1 same vigilant jealousy then which I liad heel' c at torth on the present occasion. The marriage 4. the Duke of Cumberland w a s. at that time 0 l' i - er dered rather a p 0 '"' rivate than a public ooe• o : t he circumstances, and the present conditi" blie Royal Family, made that marriage more -1" 0 1 i atl than it had appeared before, and Minister s dt a have failed in their duty had they not.re- 4)1ve e ,.... bring' the subject . again before the 'l t ' ll : v i t a , They could, indeed, take no other cours e er re out resolving to act on the principle °I P 5 , 00 1,1 tual exclusion. He thought the Wo e i o ta be, unwilling to force that Illustrious Pei's': t he exile. .To him 0 a it appeared but just ' 6 5 for same prOvision should he made for hi m ej'bil the . junior, branches of the' Royal Fami l y; 5 0 1 " ; whole expence of the proposed arrangeol e° ' s ; tilt' posing the -Duke of Kent should m arry , el l to amount annually to 55,5001. It was orte s t e n 10 give the Duke of Clarence 19,5001. to tualt e g l e;' a re, income to 40,0001. and to give the Dukes ( rt i a as i berland, Kent, and Cambridge an ad`',,,,, j e s !.,,°‘ 12,0001: per annum, to bring up their ineai - lo aak 30,0001. An outfit to a corresponding 6 ", ea r' was also to be proposed.. No part of t P O , e th rangement of 1792 had been - more dissiV,l. 1;0' and no part of that of 1815 more iptar - ov e "' i v lai that which related to the outfit, as it wes or :; of; means of a. liberal outfit that any c hance '',,ai. forded to the Royal Pair of being enabled t °3 n re' getting in debt. The charge created.in tb e r ' fa s' sent year would have been 110,000/. 'The i r ' e fio ge, A vent annual charge 55,5001. By thig iv i l L - cv n 0° ment no new, burden would have heer rla a - aen e ‘ e i t • the country, as the- expence would ha v e. l i ed -141- , vered by funds which had been estau),,id P other purpOses. On this however lie, - i t vve s , stress. Either way it would be as brooilis by IP long, whether the money was advarie eb , a ying, public, or whether they intercepted those ,",, t5 ."" = which would otherwise go into their poe- c i o d This did not affect the wisdom or the eo% t tlti' of the measure. It hoWever did appear "-- .00 expence could he met by-the falling ill " af t c l l4'l l'. on the Consolidated Ftind, which either 1', 4 i t li 4 ready ceased, or which would he terminated ' P e 0 in a very limited period. In the first iust' l " c c i'or', the-death -of her Royal Highness Princess Toe lotte, there' was, a-, falling in' of 10, 00 L ~e e t - fund set.oppn from the iacome. of the PrI P ) die Wales for the liquidation of his debts, he 1 0 satisfaction to state, would in the cours e oft !I be. years be liberated,- and thus b 6,00 0 1: %In ) ( b iell annually• alicable to other purposes , -",' " c te 50,0001.-with the other 10,0001. would have Ar vered. the whole expence of the intended arraeoialog ment. Bowing with all deference to the fe ' O O which bad been manifested . by the House " 0 , 0 subject, Ministers were still of o pinion it vie d their duty in the first instance toact as they 41 h 1 done, seeing the arrangement contemplated ", e o; neither have thrown any new hoiden on thel. o oo pie, nor impoverished the Consolidated xO 5 more than it bad been impoverished before-oiclt,. had,,now to state the outline of the plans. ''otiou under all the circumstances, - it was the idled to of Ministers to submit to the House, ow , . ~u ew he be ah