The Sun. — London, England, 1810-06-01 00:00:00

slander which it contained, but the efFea would be pioducvd. for it would generally obtain circulation in the copntry. There v. as an objetiion to the Petit ion being laid on the table, as the Hon. Member tio had undertaken to present it, did not consider him self responsible for the contents.. The Hon. Gen tleman suggested the prqprie.ty of allowing it to be withdr:iwn - and modified.. • The CHANCELLOII of the EXCHEQUER wished the Hqp. Gentleman to state what course •he would adcipt, as the time would be gone by when the'Peti lioners might claim the interference of the House if it was withdrawn. Mr. CALCRAFT replied, that they had till, Monday to 'prrsent anotkier Petition, the Aet allowing four- teen days. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought the Petition as it was , framed was requisite for all the purposes of the Grenville! - Aa for, if-they failed in proving .the allegations, they would be liable loan costs. .The Learned. Gentleman, as it was a matter of grave and consideration, thought the debate should be adjourned. • Perhaiis the 'matters contained in the Petition mitht be fit.subjea for the consideration of n•Commit tee of Privileges, ,who would estimate all toe faCt of the case, and take such measures against the Petitioners it they had• atied unworthily, as Would meet the justice of the case. Without mak ing up - his mind coi the subje&, as at present ad he was disposed to say that this was not a gnestion which came under the G ,- enville Att• it most certainly was a doubtful and nice case, and he would therefore more, that the Debate be adjourned till Tuesdrty next. The SPEAK EA observedTha,t it would be necessary for him formally to • aoprise the Noble Lord of the day on which the discussion ~which concerned his interests would come on. Mr. C. WY NNE and Sir JOHN ANSTRUTHER made a few observations, and then the Debate was adjourned' till,Tuesday next. EAST INDIA AFFAIRS. Mr. DU DAs moved the Order of the Day for going'into a Committee upon the Affairs of the 'East India Company. The Paper- on the table was referred to the said Committee. ._ On the question being put, _ . Mr. CH E EY V objeded to going into the Commit tee with such slender information for the House to judge of the Company's affairs, as that afforded by the Neer just referred to the Committee: He .wished for delay, until a paper he had moved for should be produced. He then entered into a detail of the state of the CoMpany'i affairs for the last thirty years, contending that they had year after . year come to the House for relief, made promises when that relief was prayed for, which they after wards never . fulfilled. In 1781 they obtained 1,500,0001. and a • renewal of their charter, their c.a. pital being then increased to 3,200,0001. agreeing to pay to the public a sum of 400,0001. for the renew al of their charter.--The• next year, and the suc ceeding one, they 'delayed - the revayment of the bor rowed money. and borrowed 500,0001. making the. sum 2.:)00,0001.- In 1786, they obtained anexten sion of their capital stock of 800,0001; In 1793, their capital was increased t 0.6,000,0001. 'ln 1794, they torrowed another million,. making. theilebt due to the public 3,000,0001. in all. In 1797, they added 2,000,0001. more to their capital, making,the whole of it 8,000,0001. and obtained leave to bor row on a bond 2,000,0001 : more, making the total .5,000,0001, borrowed on .bond. The Honourable Gentleman then referred to what he termed a curi.! ouspaper,. printed for the other House, which ex posed the state of the 'Company's affairs. This. pa per repro ented their, affairs as-in a very ruinous state. In 1&02 and 1803, the profits of their, trade to the East was 301;7151, In`lBo3 and 1 - 804, it Was 115,31 - 91. In 18c4 and 1805, it had decreas ed to 92,0001. In 1805 and-18a1, it was only 11 owl: And in 18,6 and 1807, instead of profit, they had -to . encounter a very heavy and-serious loss, for they Were minus 204,0001. Having descanted on these' ;penes, the Hon. Gentleman urged -the necessity of further information, and stated his intention of tak ing the sense of the House, if. the Right Hon. Gen tleman persisted in going into the Committee. - Mr. It DIJNOAS would nut say the conduct of the :Hon.-Gentleman Was disorderly, but he thought the mode of opposition which he had adopted extreme ly improper.. In the Committee the Hon. Gentle man knew he would have an opportunity of reply ing to what might be advanced, if he disapproved of the, grounds on which he applied - to Parliament to assist the East India COmpany. The Hon. Gentle man had riot anticipated many of his arguments, and he shoald not at present .go much into the sub jed. 'T: :e application of the East_ India Company to Parliament to extend their capital, he contended, was no sign of their being a sinking Company. He hadmo ohje&ion to the Exposition the Hon. Gen tleman had spoken of being before the House, but he - the:Tht the general statement of all the affairs of India Company, which had been made out to a fiery late period, would be sufficient to enable the - House tp .form a proper judgment on all he should state to the Committee. It so happened that 'Papers oe the subject, a list of which - filled a page of the order-book, were about to be printed for the information of the House, and the exposition al- Wed to was one among them. Almosf every paper befote the Committee, he conceived, to be to' the lull as important to the elucidation of the subjed as th at. The supplement to that paper had not only heen'hefore the Committee, but printed Copies of it had been distributed to the Members, that it might be read by all. If that supplement to the exposi tion had not been read by the Honourable Gentle man, as he supposed it_ had not, that circumstance could furnish no argument against their going into the Committee. As to the various topics started by the Honoureble Gentle Man, they would be more. properly diwus l / 2 ed in the Committee, and it would then be for them to determine what degree of at-! tention should be paid to them ; he would, there fore Move that the Speaker should leave the Chair. The question being put, after a few words from Mr. Tierney and Lord Merpeth, the House di, Vor going into the committee 43—Against it 7. Qn re-entering the gallery, we found the House a Committee, and Mr. DVND.AS his legs, arguing the prop r i e ty o f rantiig the East India Company a l oan , an d set ti ng ! ;ti; the tosses they had sustained, and - the evils Ender which they continued to labour. The accounts P. 9,4 beers Tc*v.c4 from 411 paFts. of the -ast 41- t dies, but before next Session, he trusted they would .be in possession of fulr information on the subject. ale House -could then consider of the manner in which the extraordinary demand should be met.— The debts of the Company contracted in enlarging their possessions ought not to be paid out of their commercial profits, but out of their colonial revenue. He would propose -that. Exchecper Bills should be issued to the amount of 1,500,0001. for the service of the East India Company.. •He. wished the period for which this was to be granted to be limited, that they must come to Parliament in the course of the ensuing Session. This might excite surprise, but he wished - the whole subject to be brought before Parliament. With respect to the inquiryof the Ho - - nourable Gentleman as to the means of paying the loans so advanced, he would only say look at the warehouses of the East India Company, and the goods and effects therein lodged, and then say if pro perty to the amount - of ten or twelve millions did not afford sufficient security for a lOan of 1,600;0001. That however was not all; the country was at pre- . sent at a considerable expence for the naval force employed in India. That expence, amounting to 400,0001. annually, the Directors were willing to take upon themselves. The Right Hon. Gentleman thert entered into a detail of the progress of the affairs of India, From which we understood that the expen diture, in consequence of the wars in which the Com pany was involved and the losses they expeTienceci, exceeded their profits in 1805-6, by 2,587,0001. In 1806-7, by 3,263,0,001.. In 1807-8, they were con siderably less, their amount being • only 130,0001, above the revenue, and in the account of 1808-9 the last received,there appeared a surplus of 138,0001. The treasury of the Company was in a flourishing state being richer in cash, bills, &c. than ever it had been before. The military establishment, he would ob serve, might be reduced, there being -no reason for . believing hostilities were again likely to occur. He Then went into a statement of the debts of the Com pany, which he observed had decreased by the sum of I,foo,othai. within the last year. - Under all the circumstances, should the East India Company ap- - ply for a renewal of their Charter, be-should not be one of those who would wish it to be renewed on the present or any thing like the present terms. He, however, was of opinion, that whenever the East India Company brought the subject before Parlia !tient their trade would be safely and properly esta-, blished. He concluded by moving—" That it is the opinion of this Committee that the loan of a sum, not exceeding 1,500,0001. should, under the .pres'ent - cireunnstances, be advanced for the service of the East India Company." Mr. CREEVY was not satisfied with the security for the payMent of the loan. So far from the affairs of the East . India Company having improved since the year 1808, it appeared from their own state- " ments that they were actually 3,000,0001. worse in' . 1810. They had forfeited all :their engagements with the Public, and now they came, as had been, stated, to borrow of the country, because they were unable to borrow elsewhere. Mr. R. DUNDAS did not recollect any suth state ment, and thought the Company ought nut to be censured as having brokeil their engagements, be- Cause being constantly,at war, for which a provision was originally made, - they had not contributed that to the service of the State which, but in case of war, they were bound to do by the A 61.. Colonel ALLEN thought the coudea of the Company marked by a want of fairness and Can dour. General ASTON made a few observations, but in a tone so very inaudible, we could not, collet his4en timents. Mr. G. JOHNSON wished the House to recur to the practke of having annual statements laid before it of the affair's of the Company. He thought the country at present gained by our possessions in In dia from 3 to 4 millions annually, but still a re - - galar statement ought to be made, and a yearly Budget pioduced as formerly. He was. for grant ing the Loan, conceiving it . to be, a necessary sacrifice to uphold so valuable a part of the Em pire. Mr. GRANT thought the East. India Company had been long unjustly dealt with, particularly in that House. The conduet of the ,East India CoMpany, which, through the wars in which they had been engaged, had so embarrassed their circumstances, had been sanctioned by the House and by the coun try. Why, then, were they spoken of as being bankrupts .in their commercial capacity ? Much had been said in that Hou-e to the prejudice of the Company. This was misusing the freedom of speech there enjoyed. If the system were wrong, it should be changed at once ; but if still suffered to exist, it was not well thus to shake its credit at home and abroad. Mr. PRENDERGAST said, the circumstancesattend ing the late embassy to Persia ought to be brought before the House. The , present state of the Com pany's treasury did not arise from their commerce but from the repeated loans they had obtained. Ile was irf favour of the motion. After a few words from Lord Morpeth and Mr. Creevey,,a division took place, when the numbers were—Ayes 77—Noes 10. A short conversation took place between Mr. Whitbread and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the report of the Committee on the funding of Ex chequer Bills. Tile Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that the suhje& required their grave consi deration, but that he could not immediately gibe it that consideration to which it was entitled. Mr. Whitbread thought an example should be imme diately made of the offenders, but was willing to, give the. Right Hon. Gentleman all the "time of the recess to consider of re-construaing the office. The conversation was tertr.inated by the Speaker (no question being before the House), desiring to know which Order of the Day the Hon. Gentleman wished to move the reading of. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER, the report of the Assessed, Tax Colle6tion Bill went through a Committee. The resolutions were read pro forma, ordered to be printed, and to be taken into further consideration on Tuesday, Mr. MARTIN, before they proceeded to the busi ness of the day, wished to know if it was the inten tion of the Chancellor of tae Exchequer to press on the Hou , e the Bill for the regulation of the Office of the Registrar of the Admiralty. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied it was not his intention to press it that night. runuc - EXPENDITUT{E. • • - • I guards_ of the Crown. The question . before the Mr. D. • GSDDY brought up the report of the H ouse was no t f or t h e a b o li t i on of sinecures to a nt Committee on Ptllific Expenditure, the two first extent; i t was 'much .narrowe r . Th e mode now' resolutions of which were read. On the second, prop o s e d was no t d ec i s i ve ; an i nvest i gat i on s h o uld which 'set-forth th e e x pedi enc y o f a b o li s hi ng Si ne - be set en foot, t o l earn th e s i necures w hiCh oug ht to cure Piaces, .1 be abolished, and the offices which deserve to be red. Mr. BANKES rose to move an Amendment on munerated. The question was simply, whether the this resolution, 'which h e , thought to be connected thi n g s h ou ld rema i n w i t h t i l t o ld name, or O bt a i n 3 with the dignity of the House. The reasons Which , ' new one, both being equally obnoxious to the pub ' induced him to vote against the motion for a review lie. It was impossible to obtain from the House of the state of the representation of the People, he ; precise definition of the offices to which they in would not now explain ; however, if he was asked - tended to grant pensions. He would not agree with why. he voted in that majority,.he would simply an- 1. the amendment, unless he could plainly perceive seer, that this question was not desired to be enter- what was to be substituted, and what was to be ed into by the respeelable part of the Public. Once ; abolished. He was convinced, that with proper at he did vote on the contrary ; but the opinions of tention of the Government, great retrenchments the people .were different then. He thought it to might be made. He did not . approve of the pritaico be necessary that the representation should be equa- ' of pointing out individtials in the enjoyment of erne` lized, and the expences attending.eleatioos diminish- luments of this nature.—Upon these grounds he. ed. It was the wish of the. people to have a mo- conceived it safe to rest on the resolution in,its origi detate _and : substantial reform, not of that -kind nal' form; by which a certain class, under the notion of reform, wish to crush the Constitution. It was not .the fangs of the ci4untry, that if part of the privileges of this House should be taken away,•the whole would be lost ; the people; he said, had a right to complain ; the notions of the class of persons he had just adverted to f.-11 far short of his intentions; "he believed they would deprecate; nay almost abhor the motion he was about to bring before the /louse; he meant that description of persons who for the last_ three months have endeavoured to bring the House into contempt. He now wished- to hold out 'a line of demarcation, as it were a marked line of reform which would eventually make the House respeCted. Having thus prefaced, he now wished to state his plan first making a fear observatiOns on the eco nomy and influence of the Crown. W;th respea to economy, he did not submit his motion with the hope of obtaining any great saving, every one must know that on this head minor considerations can avail little, it is in 'the grOt establishments alone that effeEtual retrenchment can be looked for; he trusted the House would not, meet . again without bringing this measure forward, and then he hoped' public establishments would be circumscribed in such limits as would meet the resources of the country. In his motion he intended to substitute in the place of sinecures, pensions, to be disposed of by"the Crown, to persons who' have held high and important offices on the Civil Establishment, taking from this, the remuneration to Lord Chancellors, and the predecessors of the Chair he now addressed.--- These he conceived to be a burthen on the fund of the country. With respeat to the influence- of the Crown there, were many opinions, it was hardly pos sible in the' constant increase'of revenue, to see the increase .of establishments, without observing the many obvious sources of the-influence of the Crown; he did not now speak in referenee to any .particular government. He granted that ' the revenue was well colletted, and at a comparatively small expence,ind lie believed that there were no more places created than were necessary to disbliarge the. duties .of the various establishments, which were most-la borious t frorn,fhe . naval and military brancl.es, 'it Was impossible to say, but the Crown derives much power, but this could not admit of any large diminu tion. The House would ill discharge its duty if it was hastily to abolish sinecures. There were many ofsmall inheritance, but of great abilities, to whom these remunerations were a groat inducement to ex ertion ; if it was otherwise, the House-would not be in.possession of such men. Perha.ps.it .would be said, that the House would.take upon itself to remu nerate-merit, It might do so : but if such a power was lodged here, it would be' subversive of the Con stitution, and bean encroachment on the King, the _ fonntair of Ix:Tours and rewards. If this was put into effeet, instead of obtaining economy, it would be running into extravagance. The House of Corn ;mons, was a body which should not be trusted in , such matters. - As to any,personal question, to use the phrase of a Roman author, it was a more pretiam fes,tinandi, for 'whenever any - mailer' of compassion came before the House, every due - consideration was' prevented. 'To two Right Hon. Gentlemen; (Messrs Perceval and Yorke) he paid the highest tribute of praise for giving.-up, or rather foregoing, on'aceouna of the 'situation of the country, cer tain peaumary considerations to which their of fices- entitled them. What he now intended of fering was perfettly adequate, ana would be agree. able to-the Officers themselves. As to Ms. Burke's Mr. H. THORNTO4 thought, that the various state ments of his Hon. Friend were much mistaken. The professing to follow. Mr. Burke in his ideas on the subjeEt, and not doing so, W 23 an objection which had been often adduced. He said the remuneration now proposed was capable.of applying in all cases. Mr , Burke's view of sinecures was not extensive, be kep t his eye only on the great sinecures in the Exchequer , On this subjeef there were many .grou,nds of die content; popularity should be thought in Many re' speCts true Wisdom., The chief causes of unpopula" rity were the taxes, and the population exceeding the means of subsistence.. He supported the .reso lution. Mr. BATHURST explained., Mr. MACDONALD thought that from the Corn• mittee some sensible and. substantial advantages should arise; the greatest: approbation was due to the Hon. Gentleman who proposed the amendment, inasmuch as he persevered in- the most unwearied. exertions, notwithstanding the constant opposition of his Majesty's Ministers. He in vain looked for any ground which could justify a Representative in refusing his Constituents to support such a. salutary measure as the present. The objc‘Clion of the irld , significancy of any economical attempt he conceived not to be founded in security. It did not come Weil from the advisers of the Walcheren Expedition, and from those who had buried: , British, treasure in the bottom of Spanish rivers. He wished to ask Mi nisters for the account of the successes which no/ balance our loss. He agreed with the Amendment. Mr. W. TAYLOR thought that the simple ques tion was, whether the measure invaded - the pret°:. gative of the Crown or no. He was in favour 0 the amendment. • Mr. WILBERFORCE contended, lhat the Prejudices of mankind would be done away when they exec' cised that common sense with . which they wer e gifted by nature, and recognised the immutable prin' ciples ofjustice . which bestowed pensions on •deserv ing objects. It was a distinct thing - to m..ke such provision, and was quite beside th e un p opu l ar a ct o ( giving sinecure' He recommended the tie" cessity of endeavouring In gain the public esteem ) 3 1 lightening the burthens which pressed so heavily." - * He did not think that there was so much ofclarooe r as to induce the House to think that the Public bP' hayed indecently. It was the duty of the House t ° secure the atfeetions of the - people, and it_conlad pot' in WS . opinion be done More effectually than by con ciliation. Economy was - not to - s he measured - bY money merely, but by stewing the . Public that jo sc , compensation was giVen to indi v idu a l s on ly w ho back rendered service to the - State. The use of economy was reforming by principles of justice and reason , and by acceding to the wishes of the people. - • Mr. LONG was not assured that the substitutio n of pensions in lieu of sinecures would be more agree' -- able to the Wishes of the people. In stating so, the Hon. Gentleman meant no more than that his own wishes were for the substituti o n, an d conseq uently he wished , his oA n opinions to be taken as the standard of , the people. It was the common pra c ; lice of the Gentlemen opposite, when they taike" of the people's wishes, to state arguinents whij i clearly shewed that .they urged their own opinievs merely. With resped to pensions being substitot: ed in lieu of sinecures, no reason had been adduce!, to convince the Ho u se that the s u b st it u ti on Would benefit the Public, for the,burthens would be as se' verely felt. . The .House then divided on the amendment. . opinion on the influence • of the Crown, he op posed himself to himself, for in 1782, he did not attempt to notice the Pension list and other relative matters. The principle on Which he now aried lay in a narrow compass. He was afraid the House had voted' in this Session some things not in unison. with the general sense of the :Public. He was pleased that no new. taxes were imposed, buf he regretted the want of reduction in the Estab ishments.— He ask , - d the House, was it not e4pedient to close this Session with something like an act of grace, and to spew the people that its ears were not totally shut against all reform ? On what principle ought sine cures to exist ? He moved an amendment, . " The if the word - It Noes . . . . .• 95 • Ayes . . . sof Majority for the amendment . . . i• While the Ayes were out, Mr. BANKES addre9sl ed them in the lobby, and stated, that 4i1011 . 1d the amendment be carried, tie should propose the othe r resolutions in the printed paper, in lieu of the amendment of Mr. Perceval. On our re-admission to the Gallery, we found Mr: BAN/US moving an. Amendment to the secbilL7 res , Aution, in substance stating, " That it is expo' dient to abolish all offices filled by depty, providiug also that security should be given for the due Pei''. form - ance of the duties attached to the same:" a The CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER SUggeSte ,at after the words is.expedient,' in the resolution, the remaining should be omitted, and the following inserted :—" After prOviding, sufficetit sums for his Majesty to recompence the Hig)). Offi cers on the CiVil.Establishment, tO aboiisli all Odi, ces in the Revenue, which are without employment, except those conne6ted with his Majesty's Service, and that of t he RoyatFamily." • On the Amendment being read, Lord Alti.ToNr observed, that the system of.sine cure could not be defended. ge conceived it to be a .mockery • to appoint "Cotnmittees and receive re ports, Without putting into effea_ theii recommen. to the Hon. Gen.iemen to postpone his amendment, but Mi. Bankes persevered. The Gallery was aga in cleared for a division, when th e num b e rs were I°' the amendment— Aye's . . . . 111 Noes . . • Majority for Mr. BANK AS'S Amendment_lt . . The .Gallery was not again opened. The Hous e continued in discussion for some time upon the Otli ct amendments, which were at length postponed. The House adjourned at Half-past Three o'C1o;i 1 tiii4 morning.i dations. Mucli as heappraved of the Hon. Gentle man's ideas, he could not but condemn his observa tions and insinuations on the charader of Mr. Burke. He was,surprised id hear him say,- that because the people did not wish for reform, he would therefore vote against it; his system of independence was very extraordinary. It was the duty of the House to lop otf any thing which might tend to increase the influence of the Crown. Colonel BASTARD thought that the true power of the Crown rested in the attachment of the people. It was incumbent on' the House to save all that it could. The . principle ' of., sinecures was bad, it ought to be abolished. He voted for the goaend- men t. Mr. BATHURST said, that no one could doubt that the good opinion of the public is one o the safe. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. SIR, As you frequently allot a portion of your Paper 1° ' the Arts, I doubt not that you will readily admit 3 feW words, intended to rescue men of talents 101/1 the-attacks of anonymous nta;ignity. The st", c c ; tures which have appeared in ? print excite contempt for the low ribaldry with whic h they are characterized, if the m a l evo l en ce which they are uniformly marked did not exc' i ; emotions of the strongest indignati on . Indeed it is evident,. from the vague and obscure maorer which several of the produetions in the present Bic . —hibition at the Royal Academy have been mention' ed., that the pseudo-critic has not even seen th e • works which he so vehemently abuses. Waco 3