The Sun. — London, England, 1808-04-13 00:00:00

~` i who erArced the propriety of what had beem'sug ,„crested b3•.Mr.Yoaxs, and from Mr. W. SMITH and Mr. thihaßßT on Ihe same_ side, and from Lord CASTLEREM;II on the other, the Motion, thit the Petition be now broUght up, was allowed to be 'withdrawn. Mr. HOWARD gave notice that on this day he would move that the Affairs of the. East Indi% Com pany should be referyed to a Committee (we believe s Committee of the whole House). Mr. DAVIES GIDDY moved that the Grampound Eleetion Ballot should be postponed from Thursday 'next to Tuesday the ipth of May. . it being found, Lowever, that one of the parties dissented from this arrangement, the motion was withdrawn. Ti*:. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave no tice,that he would move to-morrow, or the day after, that this House should adjourn either from to morrow or 'Thursday till the Tuesday se'unight fol lowing. DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY. Lord- CASTLEREAGH , said, he had not long Since had occasion to call the attention of the House to the general consideration of our military establish ment ; but at the same time the House would allow with reason, that the first consideration was due to our regular army, rather than to those descriptions of fared which were secondary and collateral to it. It was the duty of Government, .however, to attend to all parts of Military System, and to provide , effeileally for the maintenance and discipline not on ly advise descriptions of force that always had arms in their. hands, but also of these that wore armed only provisionally for the purpose of training; and discipline, With a view to eventual emergency. Hav in propo ' s'ed that first which.was .of most import'- ance, ,he was happy to coegrattilate the House, that. by tile success which feel ettend , xl the _neeisures it had. been his go;;,'; i'ortuoe to propose to' the House 14 ' 1 Y" r ; . te b islativc care was neces-saryfoethe es .. saiallninent of a Regular Army, The zeal with which the ; Mt passed on his suggestion, had been carried into effeEt, havieg added 40,000 men to our regular este blishment, that important 'branch .of our Military System may be safely left to the rotation of the ordinary recruiting. The Regular Army and Militia being ire this perfeEt .sate, we may now proceed to the arrangement of those parts of our establish ment; which were neither less important, nor less dif - eel:. to be. properly tttulated. Having taken the measures last ; year; which operated so beeelicial)y, for ; the itegullr Army, he, thought the Country might rest with safety upon those, ineesures, till more: precise information. as to the number and dis cipline pt the Volunteers under arms should furnish .to the Legislature more authentic materials, than could then be hail, there being no immediate come • talunication between Government and the Volunteer Corps as there was . now, by means of Oa lxispett log Field Officers. .By Mean* of these fiteers, the Most accurate information was now obtained on .these important points, and though - the arrange. meat of so important a matter was full ef ridicule ties, which were enhanced .by the labours bestowed on it by his predecessors, and particularly by the able individual who had gone.. before him, he and his Colleagues would be wanting to their duty if they did not turn their attention to it asearly as they . could, and if they did not bring forward, as they now. did; ttuough him, a plan of suusidiary defenee. In looking to the amount and description .ef,por,Arcay in general, he had already congratulated the House that there was no, longer any eaten. for ateeiety.. In point of number and discipline our Army was beyan4 any thing this Popetry ever enjoyed.. To the Volun teers he was happy to pay that sharp in t hi4geeeral tree ' bete, to which the testimony of , the liispecting Field, Odipttrs proe l .l them justly entitled. No force o lvas Ovftebetter qualihed . for theSwtuAliato dtifenry of the Gountry, none better entitled to its contideu cc, and as, long 0 therfelt inclined, and convenience permitted . them to do. duty the tninner they ,now, did, it NIV:q he.could imagine ,a force to 'which he would bu more disposed to trim the •fate and fortune..of the British Empire. He should, how evab ~be, wanting_ in his duty, if - he did look toryard for; the,.tiine When occaions ohly arise in which the services of so large a proportion . bf the community as Volunteer: , „ would . appear Ipngar called ler by any pressing„etnergeney, This Was the crisis which he felt it his duty tg : previde foi, and no time could btk, so preikrly selp4ed to make that provision as the present moment, when. the Volunteer Corps were so high in atop*, zeal,, :eel discipline, wheit defalca tion appeared to be at a 'great distanca,.. and when theiremetly that may be provided for its (1'9104 existence mey be, .Matured and perfeaed be,fote it would be wanted, 'and iitay come inteeeperatiott so gradually and imperceptibly as to create none or those agitations that were unavoidable wren great deficiences were to be supplied by snilden ese-. cilium. If 'the Near'jr. should continue vary loag, ,or if a Peace should 'be made,. the Volunteers may in either ease return to tlioite doineitic habits from which the ittuninent danger of the Country, a call. always imperative ou Britons, had drawn them fOrth., This event, wheiieier it might take place, it -Wlthp ditty of. Covitilltat . , tti see that the Country ' 'as prepared for. fleece arose the necessity O t propo4ing a plan tl i tai would be equally operative in peice . and in war; :and iheeffeti of which woUld'he, that the country:wintir pept no moruent unpvepared,, It', was better' that 1110 titten• lien of Parliament should be call.:(1 to thi.i.,34biee;t in time of war than its pe.ac, fur nothing wore in- CCl,istent with peace, nothing more to disturb its triniquilitty, or tp..norten ils"Uurition, than to agititi, inquiries, and to lje . Mentsconnected with war. H. ,t:ppost:d j;9- argu, wasrraPnt nect , s,ary to conviuce (.7;tlitlernen of the. propriety of makit.g, every pos,ible exertion, .to put ou). military ilt.;tablislintent in the Most respectable,. poitnie. It etas only necessary' to look at the state of Europe, to see thatby no other means would . ; . be inabled to treat for Peace on equal grounds, caries 'exCept we made 'Peace on equal gronada ft, would be no Peace. 'lt was neer:is:oy tOr o- put forth and array' our' strength in 'rich a miner, as not only to render our Coasts inVtiliterj: , able in War, but also to !thew, the Enemy that bs had• no chance of accomelislliog .1 - 11S-i;bieo in Peace, and to teach him wto ake:1.10144 Minn to live in the world with one Power, which. he could not hope either to emitter or to . intimidate. Iu • this view, however high an ,opinion he had of the Votunteert,:he conceived it wetild be tin ‘itlie 'to aVe hhe permanent defence. of the Country dependent t r on , the feelings or indiodo,t4 ; and he eonceived it' I right to propose, a system invariable in its operation, which would prevent the public security from being ever compromised: Having stated this petline of the 1 considerations which led to the adoptiort of the plan . l he was about to propose, he would now proteed to I explain the ideas of his Majesty's Ministers with re speet to the existing eystem of subsidiary defence, and the alterations they proposed to introduce upon it. An Aet was passed some time since, for the gene eat training of the people. He had, in the last Ses sion, brought in a Bill for completing' the returns tinder that and regulating the mode in Which the ballot should be ; applied to them. The ballot, how ever, could be applied only to a small proportion of the returns', and even then there was not sufficient com pulsion to tender it effeaual. It was necessary testate to the House, without reserve, the view hilt Majesty's Ministers had of that Training Ael. The intention . of it-was to enable Ministers to advise his Majesty to train 200,600 men out of the' whole populetion. The parish officers werelo do the duty of military officers and drill serjernits aowards those naert But neither was the - training adequate; !stir would the men be of any use when so trained. The time of the year when the men Were brought 'together uns cler that Acct, and the piece 'where they, were - to be assembled, were equally improper; and they were turned out of tlk' hands or their trainers unfit for any h service, and without any obligation to any except in' the eveneof invasio n ; There were some whovcitt- ; sidered tiaieing of value, without ernbodylog, HN i ! wag of a different 'Opinion. He considered it • use to have, men trained: Unless they were re giniented. The regiments of Regulars, ,Volunteers, or Militia, into which they should be put after such imperfect training, would have little benefit from them. If trained in regiments they would be of real utility. The training of the whole . nember of 800,000, which number the,Bill proposed succee , sieely to train, would have been a very general hard-; . ship without any benefit, or an imperfect and Con tingent One except in Case' of incorporation. The • VolOnteer training was such as to leave the man in . a state ofperfeet discipline, fit for service, without any (Luther instreetion; whenever, the exigency should arise. But waile the general training in this view, was more vexatious 'than beneficial, there was ano ther view in which it was serviceable. The men might be traineday'so es to be qualified to fill the ratiks 'of the MilillaTand Regular Army, and,.ifit should be necessary to . make use of them, they, would be ready. Instead ot traitting the whole mi litary classes, a sufficient' number might be trained to , erever' any Probable exigency that might he ea r peeled to arise: - The 'Regular . Army at home at preSent amourited, - - With 'the Militia, to V. 00,006 men,' exclusive of artillery.,- The Regular Army; if. raised to one hpndred.men to each company, which was no more than the'. ()Ellett - , cdrntrianding could easily Manage, 'might admit 50,000 additional men. It would be a great advantage that this nuniber of men should btileady trained, without any oc casion to ballot for them. "They. should be \ re garded as an Army of Reserve, to. be made use of only in cases .9f•great emergency. There would be. no occasion to have recourse to the Parish Officers ; the men would be always ready, when a local, 'efilitta should afford such fecilitiee of general training, and the wen so pained would belt.b Pc quisition, to the regime=nts they may join. It would be sufficient training to drill the men Canto eight days neer , their borne!, according to the system of the Militia in fen . e.of Peace, and, to have them embodied e t days in their own counties. Measure of ;his. kind would , heve such an elle& on the recruiting of the; Regular Army, that the most ample, relianee may be .placed on itg 0418 i • atiy y cireurnOces. r it Was not necessary to have recourse ' to it inimedietely, but . it may be regarded. as a sure, resource iu reserve. NOw .with reaped, to the Vo .ltotteeras s.; he. Was, prepared..to state as: his 'owe, ppipi c m, as ,well as, that of his Majesty's Miteisterie that, long es ,the: Volonteera ceqld, with , cane v:enience give their services to the Country, with that -degree pf • titilitArt ,eflieisancy.,. which they at pNs4Ew.l)9sstlsfeils :(2 4 PvArlItYlilat would ;not:, sire any snore etfeetual force. Bat, it was essential to fix;, anti prganiee a permanent force, which would always stsksist to the some env:aunt. . Looking to the- Itegulereatel,Militiees the first linee and the Voluit- - teal! ,as else seceiht, liee e „it was necessary to have a regimetteel e force as :a third mid, the point no* to be considered was, what . amount pc, t o r ee this kind it was • necessary to have, in order to fill up the cleticiencesthat May arise in the Volune . : tier establighttAite 'lArith'respeftto thqroportion :of this regimental training, some thought it ought to go w panPh.larger extent-then , was eveloprOteaagd: before.,e .But e vehen ,the nature and ameunteof „the existing Regular Force was examined comperatively, vrith e theiteainiog tq be instituted tit le.a view 'tole; thsee 'erns:reason .to corieltule that the:atrionnt, p . ropOeed , ,,by,, hie Right Hon, • Frihed (Mr. Form et)e for the limitation of the Volunteers, that was six timea the. -Milititt, wetald afford ample foundatiaent" 111 for a . permanent subsidiary Establishment. Au itiereese apey. 'be . Made if eircatustaeces .resitaice it, but it was tionecessery to lairthet the ,country ; , in the tirst,inaettlee.' , SlX' litneS the. number at the N.lihtia woieldH be e ler (teat Britain only 330,000 „men, The e number, l, effe6tive VOlnuteers in fre e lend wee ejoae on 70,000. Under this plan, there would be therefore a , depie of 4.00;009, ready at a momeoCamotice to, fell eiote the regitnents of the I;ineettd,the Militia, irecotding att tbeytuty be wanted to make them up. According to the last returns, . 1 erfe4tiee fie-et:o .Volilnteprs in Great ,f3ri lain was .oko hundredeand ninety thousand, There wore- actually under arms at the last inapisetiott two lituehed' and forty thousats4 e ,The report of their tliseielme was highly,levoureble e and they Werede-• Cjaped folly of acting with the line. fie knew ; clue tilight e fieh. Gent.. oplacieite (Mr, IVindl9m), thoisght the Volunteers not fit to be seen in company With the militia; but others thoughedifferently,,and lieegreed with their:. When thegross =Oen( of the effeetive Volunteers s'vas" tempered with six times tile amount of the Militia, there w; found deficien ey ot eo,ooo on'the . eggregate. ' Bet when this de , 46e:icy cane to be tebdivided, 'there was found an jeseitatity, soate of the eournieS being more deficient end soil,;; less, amid turning the tatter the tnariiiied counties; and the consequence of this inequality was, that ~titt,ooo would be wanted to complete time eseserishi t i en t to the erootint desired. Hu proposed there : Cie to . eilee to.' time Crown a . power to create as local Militia, tis the agereeate amount of tio,ooo • , . . men in . the fi rst instance, to be increased in proper tion as the Volunteer force should diminish, and to sepersede them totally if they should w'ithdraw . their services in the event of l'o a ice. , 'lt was iiils• ! faelien that in creestiug° th is ferde, Which was that pulsoty in the first instance, the Country kid this benefit of trying the experiment on a limited scale, to proceed to a,more extensive application...Dr the principle if it shoeld be found-successful. He felt it desirable to proeeed'aCcerdiri2 to the accustomed habits and principles of the Country, and therefore he would prripese to ; -conform the constitution of this force to that of the Militia, but with this difference, that whereae„the Militia was now like, the.. Regular Forces, the Militia in time of peace, would be assumed .as. a model, and consequently the' services Of' this three would be confined to. its counties except, in time of invasion, or when the Enemy Should be aatially On the - coast, when alone it may be ntifrched out of its ouritiesee- It should he assembled at convenient times of the year, fOr the purpose of training only, except in time of invasion,when aaual service may be demand ed. With respei to the term of engagement, one year's training, as provided by the Right Hon. Gen tlernares Bill, was wholly inadequate. It was desirable that the Man should not be taken away inconveniently from their occupations, without compensating the 'country by substantial improvement. It was desire ` ble also, to prevent the too frequent recurrence of the confusion of the ballot, and on these grounds it was intended to propose au engagement to the la. dividuals for a certain time, and to bind them to do permanent duty in their own counties for a certain number of days., This obligation he hoped would not be considered hard; at the time when the pro, spe& of being., able to continue, the occupations of "industry depended on every man's being able to dofend the seat of that industry with arms in his hands. It was intended to allow no substitutes. This force was not like the moveable militia, which, taking men for years away noir, their homes and establishments, would often be ruinous to families unless substitution were allowed. A fee, days ser vice within his county would be no hardship to any man, and if every one was allowed to come into the market for a substitute, the most ruinous conse quences:to the Country would be felt in the enor mous rise of the bounties, as in the instance of the provisional cavalry, in which, though the service watewithin the cOunty, and to cue particular period of the year, ,the price of subititutes rose-to 30 or 60 guineas. It was therefore thought right to allow no substitutes. But id . order to prevent the injurious • confusion of the highest with the lowest ranks, some mitigation should be admitted, and he proposed to follow .the example of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, by allowing the• party to retire et) paying a tine of such magnitude as to discourage the having recourse to it, except in very strong cases. ' He Would wish to encourage the service of persons of rank as officers : conceiving there Were many per sons whO would enter into t is service vaintarily, he proposed that such offers tould be received, and l h that the ballot should. be enf reed only where there were no 'olieri, no seleetion by the parish officers. He would not allow the parishes, any more than in dividuals, to find stibstituted ; for though they would not mate eo general a competition in the market, they woetd,yet create enough to . do mischief. To prevent this evil, he proposed a penalty on the per , soli- copeenting to, bea substitute, and on the pariah accepting him. He proposed to give a ernall,botm ty of two or three guineas to those who should, enter', voluntarily, in order to render the compulsory Oblis gation of thelaw unnecessary. It was intended to submit personi from a certain aeta to a certain age, to the compulsory obligation ofa ballot, and by a little attention to the classes, it weakd be easy to ele ,,terMine the proper proportion. But it was only in the event of a deficiency Of volunteers, that the bal lot was to be taken up ; therefore age could not be so well applied, and th state of the volunteer esta blishment,would always'be a . difficult rnatter of re gulation. It would be better in These cireemstances to throw out ttersons , of ' more advanced age alto gether, and, then there would be every reason to .be : sere tpt the young men would readily take upon them the increased burthen of a larger share in the defence 'of the Country. ' LoOking •te a period, when itestead of sietsethownd, the ballot was to be enforced fora_ greeter tiumber, h,e- propoSed that the ages to which it should apply, should bb flom i a to 3b, and when a, stitficient netnber of volun teers should net otil, ho , proposed that the ' bal lot should apply between these ages. The qualiti- Cation of officers he looked on millet* importaat J . And, he e propeeetl that the regulations of the militia .4ould be adopted as they now stood. No (igh ' fil:ation on this head was required for subalterns.—. -There was a latitude given - in the recommendation of Captain's, it peesons qualified could: not be, found, ':held Officer; would be left as before, and - though it :was difficult new to get qUali4ed persoas to: erve, it was to' be hoped, that' service within the County , ' would be - more attrelive, and that qualified . persons ' would Come for Ward tO. undertake It. He would propose thee retired Vicki - Officers of the Line should ' be eligible, and he Was sure it would be considered as it distinction justly due to those Officers who had 'reached that high station. ‘ The next , point to which -she should call the attention of the House wee, th at to prevent this local militia. from ihterfering either with the 'regular army" o r : the regular militia, he should prepose that no man taking . this engagement should, during the four years for which it was in tended to last, be debarred from .enlisting in the re-, pier army . or regular militia at his 'pleasure. He -would however on this head propose one limitation in .complimeet to the Commanding Officers, to whose feelings it would not be very pleasing to have their men attacked by recruiting parties, - while embodied for the purpose of discipline. He should, there . fore, propose a restraint on their liberty of enlisting, :fora part of the tithe during which they Would be embodied. He conceived it. possible that volunteer corps may, ,in many instances, wish to change the : terms of their engagements ' and to become corps of local militia. It was well known that the establish ! meats of ,solate volunteer corps were more expensive than was necessary.. - This may be expeaed to pro duce some embarrassments with respea to funds, which it would be desirable to escape, by'turning to a service which required no stock purse. This - dis e position should be encouraged, because the local mi ' litia would be always etieetive for service ; but other ' WiSt,3 it was the disposi t tion of his Majesty's Ministers to give evei - y possible support to the ichluteers, cone sidering them, in their present highly discipline.' state, preferable to any green force whatsoever.. It was intended to put a stop to all insurances made with a view to the mitigation of fine attached to the refusal to do personal service ; and with' this view a . penalty. would be imposed on the person having re course to insurance, and. the person with- whom he may, be insured. Zhu- vt , lsole expence- of- t posed force to the country Neotild not., euted that of the Volunteers at present, nor that which would be to be/ incurred under the Traininer Bill of the Honourable Gentleman. He had nia4 coinparatira calculations, and had . adjusted The' bill, which the . Right Hon: Gentleman • might See, The Right Hon. Gentlemen's t'rained •Intlik,Would cost , more ttrm a volunteer or local militia mm. The cost of this, last was something less than . 41; look.ed upon it that 400,000 rank and file in addition,to the- regular army and militia would do a great deal, leht that was not the only 'means/of incree.ieddee fence that.we possessed, - ', There was, the provision al 'increase of 50,000, which Would give us an army of 650,000 men, subject only to the redualon on the formation of a peace establishment, which roduelion would never amount to 50,000. Always keeping up that artiount of regnlar and subsidiary - force, it would be impossible for the enemy to bring . against us any army capable of making en impres sion ; and with the trained population which this . measure and the volunteer system would necessarily • generate, we would have such means of supplying the waste of men, that the latigest force the enemy could bring must perish in the unequal confli6.-- The amount of force alluded to would be amply sufficient, and to train more would be, only idle waste. An armed peasantry, thOughuseful in other countries peculiarly (Armors% aced, could 'be of ,no use in this. It would have been impossible to 'in corporate them with the regiments, 'if inVasion, should arise. Too extensive a training would be at useless and unprofitable bUithen, tending to break the back of the people, if the expresaion way used. Having a regimental force of 400,000, In addition to a regular army of 200,000, which maY , if occasion required, be increased to 250,0 00, Par liament may rest content, and trust that the empire was secure. • He should now Move 'for leave 10 bring in the Bill., He was glad Gentlelnee would have the interval of the recess to consider the provi sions of it ; and in, order to give them the greate st - possible facility, he should - Moii:that the Bill b e printed. When they should re-assemble, and re- • sume the consideration 'of this subjeat, he would re ceive with attention every suggestion ,Gentlemen should offer, and end'eavour as much as possible to :profit by therti. He moved for leave to bring in a Bill to make,better provision for the internal defence .of the kingdom. 7 ' . Mr. YORKE- had two or thretkiideas, which ht felt it his duty to state even now. It was impossi ble not to perceive the necessity.of providing a lare manent defensive force. If a secure peaCe could at at all be looked for, it was only by keeping op a mi litary force beyond what had ever been known et this country, so as to be prepared for a war st any moment. It was important to have men ready to . fall into and to fill up the regular arniy. A consi- . derable step was taken towards this by coaxal*, the folunteera aed the militia. it was importaelkw have a 'second militia formed to volunteer and OM' . bine with the line, and a local militia also waS 3 thing very much npprOved of by him. It was sir' possible that this country could always have a rep* lar army sufficient to proteet it in the circumstance of the present times; it was therefore as necessary 0$ it was constitutional to provide subsidiary forces. It was only the critical circumstances of the tittles that justified, or seenaed to juetify, the great amount 01 the standing army we had at present. It wac im- possible to say what events 'may arise t o render still further exerpons necessary, to our s afet y . our flanks was cottpletely t ur ned, and the other may be in a very short time. We wou ld then be equally exposed on the Ea.'st,Weist, and South Co ast. His principal object in rising at pres ent W now as t ex. press his hope that d permanent system would n w i t h which be established, instead of the yearly ones One of we had been hitherto tormented. Next to a g regular army, which '4 which we bad, it. was e should have, a local militia of as l a r g e an amount as possible. Some intermediate for ce between this ssential that we e , and the regular army, applicable to Great Br it3 ' a and Ireland, was also wanted. His wishes, in that , client', would h -e• to combine the' regular with the local oe!'ette,,,tind after the present war to put 011 t ea the smite footing with reaped to training within the counties in peace and itr war, and never to be caltt.i. out of them but in the event of invasion . Ile : combination of the Officers and men of ti ., pre senb In t iljtla would' mo r e easily render ihe others feEtiv et was most essential to consider the : P A T: viding by ballot a permanent force to sero i t ' - ' - ' Tills force criminately in Great Britain or Ireland• was necessary to prevent having recourse to exP e ' clients on the .press of any extraordinary emergecy. The Amount of this militia for Great Britain anq Xreland should be aseeooe _lt would be the eecoote line of an army, and should be otficered by' men re gularly bred to a military life. He rectum-vended to imitate the example of the French, who had them selvecimproved on the ideas of . the Romans, wh° were the first military n ation of antiquity. The French distinguished their national guards Into moveable and sedentary. H e recommenced the same principle to his Majes t y' s Ministers Pod 1° Parliament. ' . . ... - Ilce, Mr. IVlNDfidill,-adverting, in the first p i ~ to what hadiallen from his Hon. Friend who 11 ", just sat down, remarked upon the observation 0 . 1 that Hon. Gentleman,' that he was gild the militarY e . system of . the country was at length to be s ettlea and render - ed permanent, e that that esPres sic ; would have been more applicably direeed agai n !: those whie when the system 'was establishea . ,carne with new propeeition s to break it up. _ He was.. sure his Honourable Friend would o,o_l be so unreasonable as to expe6t, that 'he ( IY e sr e . . Windham) would join in his satisfaction ; he v_"' ,.. had hoped, some time , ago, that the sYstern wae 'w ee ,' tied on a basis on. which it would be suffered t? 'l' N ble main. With respea to the speech of the ° re Lord , this was not the moment to enter into 3 .. 7 , , discussion of the detail of the grand plen which th e Noble Lord had just developed. He terreo 1 ' • 1 of the grand plan, not only from the consideratiot „cot, quarter whence it proceeded, butt rom the in t !' ' 1 on inva 0 e of design, the complication of parts, the No ble of expedients which it manifested, li' e ~.~ ,~~