The Sun. — London, England, 1836-04-27 00:00:00

~;, ~ ;~*' IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 26, The Lour , CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at the usual hour. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND.) The Duke of CUMBERLAND presented a petition from the Corporation of Dublin against the Irish Municipal Cor poration Bill, and praying to be beard by counsel against the allegations of his Majesty's Irish Attorney-General relative to the charge of their having misapplied their funds. Earl SEGRAVE presented petitions in favour of the better observance of the Sabbath, and from Merthyr Tydvil and other places, in favour of the Great Western and Cheltenham Railway. Also, some petitions against it. Lord CLONCURRY presented a petition from Belfast, and Bangor, in the county of Down, in favour of the Irish Municipal Bill. Earl DE GREY presented a petition from the Lord-Lien tenant of the county of Warwick, complaining of agricultural distress. Mr. OSWALD and others from the Commons, brought up the Clyde Navigation Bill. Mr. Campbell, from the East India House, and Mr. Wain wright, from the Commissioners of the Port of Liverpool, presented petitions at the bar. Lord RODEN presented a petition from one of the as sistant auctioneers of the city of Dublin, praying that their rights might be preserved in any Bill that might be introduced for the reform of Municipal Corporations. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a petition against the Great Northern Railway. Lord LYNDHURST presented petitions from Carnarvon, Alceston, Stratford-on-Avon, Wolverton, and other places, against the abolition of Diocssan Courts. BOROUGH OF SUNDERLAND. The Duke of CLEVELAND presented a petition from, the Borough of Sunderland, signed by upwards of 1,000 per sons, praying to be restored to their corporate rights. The Noble Duke also presented a petition from Barnard Castle, Durham, praying that the superfluous revenue of the See of Durham should be applied to the augmentation of small livings. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY cordially supported the prayer of the petition. GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY. The Marquis of DOWNS HIRE presented a petition in favour of the Great Western Railway Bill. EXTENSION OF MAGISTERIAL JURISDICTION. Lord SE GRAVE presented a petition from Gloucester, praying that criminal eases which are now tried at the Assizes, should in future be disposed of at quarter Sessions. The Noble Lord could not concur in the prayer of the petition. The LORD CHANCELLOR thought, if it was the in tention of the, petitioners to give to Magistrates a summary jurisdiction in cases of felony, their Lordshipss would not give any countenance to the petition.—(Cheers.) Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented petitions from diffe rent parts of Yorkshire, praying for the better observance of the Sabbath. The Noble Lord also presented a petition from the attornies of Liverpool, praying that an ambiguity in the Municipal Reform Bill, as to the place where they _carried on their profession, and which in some instances had deprived them of their votes, might be amended. The Noble Lord also presented a petition from Kingston-upon-Hull against the Irish Municipal Reform Bill. The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented petitions from different parts of Nottingham, for the better observance of the Sabbath. The Duke of SUTHERLAND presented petitions from Wolverhampton, and different parts of Staffordshire, to the same effect. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from Limerick, in favour of the Irish Municipal Reform Bill. The Dundee and Forfar Railway Bill was read a third time, and passed, as was also the Writers to the Signet (Widow's) Bill. AFFAIRS OF SPAIN. Lord MELBOURNE laid on the table some supplemental corrrspondenee relative to the convention entered into between Lord Eliot and the contendinr , parties in Spain. IRISH CORPORATION BILL. _ _ The Noxi.;ii;c;ll;rthen moved that the Order of the Day be read for the House to resolve,itself into a Committee on this Bill. Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI rose and said that he would not detain the House more than a few minutes, especi ally after the most able speech of the Noble and Learned Lord, which was still unanswered, and which must be still fresh in the memory of their Lordships.—(Hear.) He would not go into any topics of recrimination, either as re garded individuals or public bodies.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord went on to state, that having observed the manner in which the Corporation Commissioners executed the duty entrusted to them, he was bound to !say that they acted uprightly in their proceedings. Before entering on the details, of the Bill itself, he felt bound to call their Lordships attention to the purposes for which Corporations were es tablished in Ireland, with a view to show that there was an essential difference between those who created them in Great Britain and that country. The very first corporation granted was, as a Noble Earl had stated on a former occasion, to the King's English subjects residing in Ireland, to the King's citizens of Bristol residing in Dublin. That, he believed, was a charter of Henry I. It was the first duty of these Corporations to keep guard and garrison, and to keep train bands against the Irish enemy. He would confess that he had been surprised to hear it stated in another place that these Corporations were created for Protestant purposes. Recol lecting the state of the country, and that the property was at that time in the bands of the Catholics, the great settlement of the province of Ulster, he thought that it was not unfair to suppose that the Irish Corporations were created for the purpose of increasing the Protestant ascendancy in Parliament. It was because Catholics were admissible to Parliament that it was necessary to maintain the British power, and to have an ascendancy of British interests in the Irish House of Commons. He should now approach the proposition of the Noble Vis count, and take the liberty of stating his grounds of dissent. He believed that there was no man in Parliament who could rise iu his place and say that he was an advocate of the ex clusivi system now prevailing in the Irish Corporations.- -(I - Tear.) He was willing to go with the Noble Viscount to a certain extent in the path of reform ; but let it not be said that in respect of the petitions of the people for a reform of abuses that there had been found in that House parties either deaf or unwilling to give ear to them. He was as anxious as any man to join with the Noble Viscount in doing away with this exclusive system and the vices which naturally grew out of such a system. He was desirous that the spirit generated and fomented by such a system should no longer exist in that country ; bnt he thought that some security ought to be given that under the proposed system no new ascendancy should be established—( Hear)—that a system should not be instituted as grievous as that which had been destroyedthat in the re construction a fabric should not be built up, not only as full of abuses, and attended by all the evils which bad flown from the former one, hut not unaccompanied even with greater danger. He believed that where it was possible to admit the inhabitants of towns to a participation in their government it was wise to do so. But had the Noble Viscount told the House that for the accomplishment of his object. it would be advisable to act upon such a principle ?—(Hear, hear.) No, the Noble Vis count had not ; for he had said that be would not confide to these new bodies even the administration of justice. It bad been stated that under municipal institutions cities usually increased in prosperity. In answer to this he would beg their Lordships to look at Manchester, and Bir mingham, and the metropolitan boroughs. There were two propositions which it was incumbent on the Noble Viscount to make out to their Lordship's satisfaction. First, to show that, if these municipal bodies were to be created, the pro visions of the present Bill were the best suited for the creation of Corporations ; and, secondly, that they were the best suited to carry the system into execution. The Noble Viscount had said, that having passed the English Corporation Bill, the House. ought to apply a similar enactment to Ireland. He (Lord Fitzgerald) would ask why had the Noble Viscount de parted from the English Bill in respect to the powers to be given to these Corporations ? Why had he departed from it in the two great principles of the administration of justice and police ? There lately had been placed on the table of the House the Report of a Board of Commissioners appointed by the Noble Viscount. He alluded to the Report of the Irish Poor Law Commissioners. In their third Report, second sec tion, they observed that it was said that Poor Laws for Ire land ought to be similar to the Poor Laws of England ; but they gave it as their opinion that the Poor Laws for Ireland ought essentially to vary from the English Poor Laws, for the circumstances of the two countries differed widely, and the Legislature, they submitted, ought to have reference to cir cumstances as well as to principles.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He (Lord Fitzgerald) would also submit that the Legislature ought to have regard to circumstances as well as to principles. He would be asked, no doubt, how it was intended to reform these admitted abuses.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In the first place, he would go with the Noble Viscount to the extent of abolishing the ancient charters of the Irish Corporations, and of withdrawing from all self-elected or irresponsible bodies the powers which had hitherto been vested in them. He would now ask, in the face of Parliament, and of the public, was this a niggard reform?—(Hear):--a reform unw or th y o f the application of the principle which was asked for ? Would their Lordships again be told that they were now an obstacle to effectual, salutary, and secure reform ?—( Hear.) In le gislating upon this subject he would beg the House to take into consideration the peculiar social relations of Ireland. Po litical excitement prevailed there , not alonein public bodi es or at occasional elections, but it forced its way into private lif e interfering with all the personal relations of man. He there fore would beg their Lordships to consider well before they adopted a measure which would give to the one party an abso lute and uncontrollable ascendancy. He would admit that in a count r y where the power of holding political meetings , and discussing political subjects, was unfettered, and where there Was a perfectly f ree p ress , it m ight not be possible to control political agitation and excitement; but he would ask Noble Lords opposite whether, because opportunities and facilities were afforded b y the state of the country for that excite ment, they meant to add to those facilities ?---plear, bear, hear.) If theirLordshipswhich looked . at the details res pecting the boroughs for pro vided—ifs they rooked at It% Corporations were to be pro tsra of their population, and calculated, as he had attempted e o to do, upon data, which were at best substantially correct, l whatw would be the number of voters in those boroughs ? Tey u w d o I s e i e what kind of constituencies the new Corporations thought he need not argue that point further.o possess. He The . people of Ireland, it was said, had a right to complain f olegns Majesty's were withheld from them which were enjoyed by his sub jects in Great Britain. As a general proposition un doubtedly admitted it, if by withholding their rights it c was meant that any of the rights or privileges of the subjects of the King should be defeated by the Parliam en t ar y law of Ireland; but he would ask what rights were withheld under the proposition shadowed forth the other night by his Noble Friend ( Lord Lyndhurst), and which he had now risen to ex plain more in detail? A Noble Marquis opposite (Lansdowne) had the other night made a quotation to which he would refer, a quotation which implied that they were not disposed to give equal rights in the same sense as the Noble Lord had de scribed them. The same quotation bad been employed by Mr. 'Pitt, with the addition of one line, which the Noble Marquis had not quoted : Non ego, nee Tuccris Italos parer° jubebo ; Nec regna peto ; paribus se legibus ambm, Invictm gentes wterna in fcedera mittant." Not that he meant—said Mr. Pitt—to propose the legislative union between the two countries upon terms of actual equality. He (Lord Fitzgerald) would ask the Noble Marquis what he meant by his quotation the other night— Paribus se legibus ambce Invictm gentes nterna in fcedera mittant ?" Would the Noble Marquis explain what he meant by pares leges? If he meant that every Irish subject should be equal in the eye of the law, why he ( Lord Fitzgerald) would say, so they are. The law made no distinction between Catholic and _ _ Protestant. Was not, then, he would ask, their proposition a better fulfilment of the spirit in which the quotation was made by Mr. Pitt than the measure proposed by his Majesty's Go vernment ? Upon what principle, he should like to know, was the Constabulary Bill founded? Was the principle of pares leges applied there ? If any of their Lordships had proposed a measure similar to that for the regulation of the police in England, would not the Noble advocate of pares leyes have declared, God forbid that any such system should be applied to the state of society in England ? Such was the principle of uniformity of laws which on some occasions the Noble Marquis would find it convenient to abandon and discard. He apprehended that the protection of the law was one of the first claims of the subject. Then what, he would beg to ask, was the state of the Irish Tithe holder and the Minister of the Established Church in Ireland ?—( Cheers.) Did they legis late, then, on the principle of parity of laws ?—( Loud cheers. He was ready to admit that the circumstances of that country justified, and in some degree necessitated, a different course of proceeding ; bat it must be remembered, also, that there were circumstances which had been aggravated by the course of legislation pursued in respect to that subject.—(Hear, hear.) They talked about parity of laws, and yet they hesi tated about permitting the officers of police to execute the process of the superior Courts, in order to enforce the legal claims of the Protestant clergymen.—( Cheers.) And then they said they founded their justification on the state of Ire land, in the fact that the majority of the people were not com municants, but dissented from that Church which they were called upon to support. He did not deny that, to ascertain extent, that was a valid and substantial argument—( Hear, hear)—but there were limits to be drawn, and if the argu ment was valid as to the Church of Ireland—if they had a right to say to the Protestant clergy—" You are in a minority, and we will, therefore, depart from our principle of pares leges, when we deal with you"—the Protestants must also be allowed to turn round, and say, " If we are in a minority, let us have the protection to which we are entitled, and let us not be overwhelmed by a system more oppressive—more ex clusive then the one which you would abolish." Oh, no ! The Noble Lord would return to his original proposition, and say it was necessary to legislate upon pares leges, and then— " Paribus se legibus ambm Invictm genies geterna in feedera mittant." —(Cheers.) He would now take the liberty of stating to their Lordships the plan which it was proposed to substitute for the measure of his Majesty's Government. It was intended by those who concurred in the necessity of an ample reform of the existing Corporations to agree with the proposition of the Noble Lord, and to abolish the existing Corporations from the Ist of January, 1237. They concurred with- the Noble Lord in reserving to the freemen the rights of property and the elective franchise. They agreed with the Noble Lord in the respect to the administration of justice, and the ap pointment of officers connected with the administration of jus tice ; that it was not expedient to confide those duties, in the present peculiar situation of Ireland, to such bodies as the Town Council; and they, therefore, readily concurred in the amendment which had been adopted by the Noble Lord and his colleagues, and had been introduced into the measure, un der their sanction, by one of the Law Officers of the Crown, an amendment which was not forced from them by any hostile influence, not the result of any Parliamentary victory, but yielded by them when the original proposition was found to be no longer tenable, and, the effect of which was to vest the appointment of those officers in the Crown.— ( Hear.) The sheriffs and coroners in the counties of cities and counties of towns by their proposition were to be appointed by the Crown. It was proposed also that Com missioners should be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, in whom the whole corporate property, and all charitable trusts, should be vested. By the Bill of the Noble Lord it was pro vided that those persons, members of the old Corporations, in whom charitable trusts were vested should still continue to hold those trusts ; and he (Lord Fitzgerald) was not sure that that was not a better proposition than the one be sub mitted to their Lordships; and if their Lordships should be found to he. of the same opinion, they would not then propose that there should be the same Board of Commissioners for the two purposes, of the application of the corporate pro perty and the investment of charitable trusts. It had been suggested that there was a Board in existence in Ireland called the Church Donations Board, which was highly suit able fur the purpose ; and he admitted that, so far as his own opinion was concerned, that Board appeared fully qua lified. But then it roust be remembered thet it was composed of the Prelates of the Established Church—a circumstance which would raise suspicion in the minds of some; be sides, it was a duty which he did net think those Prelates ought to be called upon to perform. Further, it was pro posed that pcevee should he given to the Corporation Com missioners to discharge all the corporate . dutles, and to ap point local Commissioners in those places where funds might exist, in order to apply those funds to the advantage of the towns in which such funds arose. Powers would be given to the Lord Lieutenant respecting the means of buying up the debts, the sale of lands, the appointment of necessary officers, and in reference to making compensation. The next provision was one of the greatest importance to the people of Ireland, respecting the establishment of the police force. Now it had been deemed advisable that, as far as possible, an uni form system should prevail; - and that accordingly where theta were no local Acts in beneficial operation the general Consta bulary Act should be applied. By their proposition the Crown should have the appointment of the Recorder, who was to be the sore Judge of the borough courts. No suspicion ceultt attach to those who opposed the Noble Viscount's Bill, benaUse they proposed to vest in the Crown, and the Lard Lieutenant, as the representative of, the Crown, the full powers of local municipal government, which they preferred placing in the hands of a Minister acting on his responsibility, to placing it in the hands of an irresponsible, illusory, and teontltory body, such as would grow out of the system proposed by his Ma jesty's Government. The Noble Viscount had on a former es , . casino stated the differences between the present meeetin Ana the Bill of Municipal Reform passed last session.; had, first, in respect to the qualification, he had alleged that a 10/, franchise would render the constituency too limited for the objects of the. Bill; but he would ask the Noble Lord how he knew that ? There was only the Report of the Cominissietrats, and that could not be relied on, because they had tray male a return of the houses registered—none of those who might vote, So far as that point was cerieerned they were legjelatiiig in the dark; what would be the extent of skit fran chise they had no means of knowing ' • and 10/. franchise had been found sufficiently limited fot Parliamentary elec tions. But what was the a qualification ? In the English_ Bill it had been limited by requiring an occupation of Three years; in Ireland, where, doubtless, it was fttl'iy . Its necessary to limit the qualification to a certain extent, six months' occu pation was only required.—(Lead Cheers.) Then, where the uniformity of laws might he preserved, for the purposts he supposed, of limiting and guarding the franchise, the Noble Lcird threw away the three years' occupation, and naeptta the six months'. The 'Noble Viscount had refeired to the dif ferences between the Irish Bills of the 'resent and the last session. An objection had been rel - sed that in the present Bill the word "office" had been added to the qualification, to which it was answered that the word was also in ttse preceding Bill, and so . it was ; but then it was in t /. eterence to the 10 qualification, and had been inserted to qualify and extend it; that, then, was another attempt to degrade and lower the qunlification,—(Loud cheers.) The power of incorporation was granted geed-ally to the Crown ; and it was proposed not, as in the Ungfiih Bill, to grant charters only upon application from a majority of the inhabitants, bet upon the application of any number of the inhabitants; so that three or four persons would have it in their power, without the consent, and even contrary to the wishes of the majority of the inhabitants, to apply and procure a charter of incor poration. Again, what could be the object of encum bering towns where the population did not exceed two thousand with so ponderous a machinery ? For, as had been observed elsewhere, that measure marked the opinion of the Government, and would mark the opinion of that House, if they assented to it, that two thousand was the proper num ber for determining upon the title of a town to be incorpo rated. The present measure might also create 121 new Cir-. poratiets in addition to the 50 especially provided for by it, all subject to the great inconvenienees of 51(cb. a system as that proposed. Could their Lordships thri, having in view the due administration of justice s And a proper municipal proi. ment, give their su pp or t to a measure so exclusive, so oppres sive,porate property, he ha', ea the question ofCor and so in conven i ent ? facts, to which he extracted from the schedules some -- .eas desirous of calling attention. It appeared from the rerl'..)rt that th e whole income of the Corporations was about 33,0001., the greater part arising from tails; that the welhuodlieegintceonmeof Corporations.the boroughs The in th Schedule irdse he a t B * o O,0 t 0 w 0 e 1 ; t i y n ). I ,e contained . one boroughs (their Lord s ties were called upon to create 21 Corporations), of whieb, six possessed no income; or sax more the aggregatt income was not above 601. per annuth; thus leaving nine Corporations which possessed flf6peify administer ; but th e whole income was net YesSie than 1,5001. pee annum. Their Lordship s the property to administer which ihen see the .extent of con structed, with a f u ll comp l ement of Corporations wou ld be officers and servants. Now, then, he would ask, whether anything o be accomplished mor e sa f e l y or mer, f a publi c nature cou ld effectually than by th e proposition which he had t h e honour -to submit He found of those 21 last-mentioned boroughsto that House? one in which there was any exclusive jurisdiction he there was not n ; in every one of them were the petty sessions held by the county magis trates. It was not then perhaps for him to inqui re what were the duties to be discharged for the furthe r Corpora tions—( Loud cheers)—but he professed of all necessaryanduseful services he knew not one which would not be fully pro vided for by the Act 9th George IV. He thought that if the numerous petitioners in favour of this Act really understood what would be the effect of its provisions in too many cases— that in point of fact it would operate as a pretext for levying a borough rate pretty generally in the towns to which it applied —either there would not have been so many petitions t presen THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 27, 11.436 ed to the House, or those petitions would have borne a very different purport—( Hear, hear)—for the schedule afforded evidence sufficient of the fact so often stated elsewhere, that there were many towns in which there were no means avail able for the adoption of the provisions of the Act of George IV., unless by the levying of a borough rate. It ha d been stated that there had been throughout Ireland an univer sal demand for the adoption of the provisions of this Bill ; but he thought there had been evidence sufficient to show that al though the demand for a change in the Corporations had been universal the preponderance had been in favour of the total abolition of the rotten Corporations, and not in favour of those parts of this Bill which proposed to "reconstruct " them. There were to be found the most glaring inequalities in the Bill. For instance, it gave to the county of Wexford four corporate boroughs, but to eight other counties it gave only the same number, while the population of Wexford was 182,000 only, and the population of the eight others was 2,100,000. — (Hear.) Then there was the subject of tolls--a subject of the more importance when it was remembered than more than one half of the Corporate property of Ireland arose from this source. He did not hesitate to say, taking the question of the goodness or badness of the system apart from any other considerations, that the sooner tolls were done away with the better. He hoped, therefore, which ever of the two propositions was ulti mately adopted, that this important subject would not be lost sight of. He had now endeavoured to state fairly to their Lordships the nature and tendency of the proposition submit ted to them from that side of the House, and he thought that it was sufficiently palpable that it did not deserve the censure which had on a former evening been passed on it by the Noble Viscount opposite. The resolution to adopt it, and to press it on the attention of the House, had not been resolved on until after due deliberation and inquiry, after full consideration of the state of Ireland, and communi , cation with those best qualified from extensive infor mation to give an opinion on the subject. The Resolu tion, in fact, embodied the sentiments of the great majority of the directors of existing Corporations. The Noble Earl (Mansfield, we believe) who answered the Noble Viscount on the former occasion bad shown how little deserved was the im putation cast by the Noble Viscount on one lately one of his most distinguished colleagues, whom he fixed on as being the most likely author of the proposition now submitted to their Lordships, because that proposition discovered signs of a pre cipitancy and violence not usually attributed to those on his (Lord Fitzgerald's) side of the House who opposed the Go vernment measure. Why, the Noble Lord's ( Stanley's) motive for leaving that Administration was no other than that he could not conscientiously give his assent to measures of preci pitancy and violence, the nature of which prevented him, in consistency with the opinions -he hal ever held and avowed, from continuing to act with the Noble Lord and his colleagues. —(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Fitzgerald) had not the honour of personal intimacy with the Noble Lord, but he hoped that the day would come when he would vindicate himself from the charge, and when the Noble Viscount would regret having cast a shaft which be would better have kept in his quiver.—(Hear, hear, hear.) To his astonishment he had heard it made a matter of surprise that a Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel), and the Noble Duke ( Welling ton), who bad passed the Catholic Emancipation Bill on the principle of affording relief to the professors of that religion, should now oppose a measure which, •as the sup porters of the arguments alleged, had the self-same object. On what ground did the Right Hon. Baronet and the Noble Duke defend the measure of Emancipation? Why, on the same ground on which he now opposed the measure of the Noble Viscount's Administration. The principle in both cases was the same. The Noble Duke, on that occasion, contended that there ought to be a perfect equality between Catholic and Protestant—that they should be equal in the eye of the law— that one should not be in the enjoyment of a privilege from which the other was debarred; and it mattered not now that on that occasion the power was withheld from the Catholics, if now, by the operation of this Bill, it would be withheld from the Protestants by the admission of the principle of popular election, and the consequent possession of it by the prepon derating party.— ( Hear, hear.) It was better to make a sacrifice for the attainment of equality than to create a new medium for the exercise of the popular voice, in a manner which must subject the property and intelligence of Ireland to the dominion of an adverse majority. The mode of election pro posed by the Bill would so agitate the towns in which they would take place that they would become the seats of political discontent, never ending, but still inflaming the minds of the disputants, and tending to destroy or impair that peace and quiet government which the Bill professed to aim at providing for the country, and to retard the spread of that good feeling among the popu'lation which it was the duty, as it ought to be the object, of the Government to promote.—( Hear.) The subject had a more intimate connexion than might at first be supposed with a measure about to be introduced in the other House of Parliament, the object of which was to reduce the stamp on newspapers to one penny. That resolution on the part of the Government had arisen out of a desire for the sup pression of the illicit trade in unstamped newspapers, the arrests resulting from which, although the tax was the result of a fiscal regulation, would have excited the sympathy of the public generally in a much greater degree, bad it not been for the character of the publications in question. The proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce the stamp to one penny had raised an appeal (one, too, very likely to be successful) from Ireland for a further reduction in that country to one halfpenny, in accordance with the usual proportion be tween the two countries as regarded stamps. Now he (Lord Fitzgerald) was not looking at the question in a fiscal point of view; but he could not help feeling alarm at the nature of the publications which, under the circaimstances anticipated from this reduction, were likely to be disseminated in Ireland, in aid of the system of agitation, and as assistants to the corporate debating societies, the offspring of The present Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Another mis fortune arising out of the manner in which the question bad been met was, that those who called for the remission of the stamp were much dissatisfied with the proposition made to them by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, contending, as they did, that if the, stamp were to be touched at all it ought to be wholly removed. And he (Lord Fitzgerald) must con fess that, looking tit the principle only, these persons were right ) fen lie tvasat a loss to conceive on what principle short of flieel necessity (and that was not in this instance alleged) any part of a tax could he continued a single raoment after the impropriety', of continuing the imposition of a tax of its own nattlite had been admitted. The relation of this part of the aubject to the new Corporations in Ireland would at once be seen, when the importance such A NedpOrt as the reduction of the stamp wouVlAdd hi the hands of those Corporations was eotisirlaiasiL ' his would still more be seen when he had !tail to their Lordships a few words from a letter written by one who had been for years, an dpodtltitt of thO members of the present Govstament; t iid *ll6 Lad novel', on, some ques tions,Fivoo concealed his opposition to them. He al laatia 'S.' the Hon. Member for Middlesex.—( A laugh, and tries of " Read, read.") The lettei la negaida;lailgrilent of a petition from a pia.ta the loath of Ireland, very nume rously and itt'Ocittbly signed, and recommending that the eartip duty should be reduced to a halfpenny in Irtaland if it• duced to a penny in England.--(The Noble herd thee read the following passage freak the letter Spell •Oncitiet luding to tine mititatea tax in lieu of a total abolition—from avelard Iteformers, shows one of two things—either that they nie deficient in a proper estimationsof what is beat for ;lib many, or that there is a want of tinnaiity in their aViis'siecl cm sire for reform.. &mit Mtn are Our present rulers, whom Cir cumstaneass etnrge us to support, and who must cbanze their ptaiiey i 1 they persist in shackling the press al ahodi to do."] (The reading of the last& part kif. this eitraCt was received with laughter and loud owti.s..) 2 The ,Noble :fio rd went on :—Arta thee coniestenienae hi tlia leiter di the Hon. Gentleman Wliiett i rettliiinend specially to the atten 'on of the iloaat, as showing with what probable results this it:vein:lute is connected in the minds of those who re the prim cipal supporters of the promoters of It: tie tient. lieritlea man goes on to say, " I khan , iaell the pal* and praCtice of the United fitate4 akact, rime Ood, when we get the Irish Menitipat Iteroim Dill passed, and other reforms made; we shall be able to talk in the House of Commons, hi a very different strain." Upon this letter lie ( Lord Fitzgerald) should make no continent: He need hardly say that he did not adopt the opinions of the *Ater, but theta: *Ss sufficient in the letter to thOw the Noble Viscount that there were persons who still thought his policy too narrow; and he (Lord Fitzgerald) hoped the Noble iscount would forgive him if he recommended hint *hen lie neat should rise in defence of the coarse of policy pursued by his Government, first to ascertain whether he had the means to satisfy those who now gave him their support,—(Cheers.) " I hope," con chided the Noble Lord l " that I have abstained from saying more than was absolut e ly necessary for the maintenance o f my propositions ; but b e f ore I s it d own , l e t me h e p erm i tte d to say while you are asked in the name of justice to Ireland to adopt the proposition of the Noble Viscount, and to give Ire land the blessings of these Corporations, that I conjure you in mercy to Ireland rather to adopt the proposition which I have the honour of submitting, and to give to Ireland repose."— (Much Cheering followed the concluding sentence of the Noble L^'. u, who then read the motion, to the effect that it be an in struction to the Committee on the Bill to make provisions for the abolition of such Corporations, and for such arrangements as may be necessary on their abolition for securing the efficient and impartial administration of justice, and the peace and good government of towns and cities in Ireland.) The resolution having been put from the chair, n n it o u th ? in w a hich they The LORD CHANCELLOR addressed the House. were Disguised as the present proposition b h was, yet sufficient ex ' planation of it had been afforded y d t e Noble Lord who had just sat down, and by the Noble an Learned Lord who on a former night brought the subjectforward,. d to render it palpable se thatseldom thisout calledproposition—one o n t 0 rficro nor less existing c-- - • than a proposal to__orations and 'appropriate bind g to others that property which to both WO. was Intended to be applied to certain public i u in abolish ooliosthe r o taa f iiin a_ magnitude Poses. He knew that the property was to be applied to the same purposes to which it was now devoted ; but was it Co in terference with p ro p e rty to take it from those hands in w hi c h it was vested, a n d t o place it in the hands of oth ers ? The Noble Lord had th o ught it necessary to enter into a hi story of the Corporations ; and no doubt his proposition was f oun d e d on the cases of L on donderry and Coleraine. It wa g , in deed, matter of histo r y and admitted fact that those two Corporations arose out of the necessity which existed for having some political support for the Protestant settlement in the north of Ireland. The same observation, however, did not apply to the rest of the Irish Corporations ; but he appre hnaedeebsseaerny,thiet lmma foundation teri al theto of th epereosrepnotrdatisiocnuss,sioana from m at b or e i i g ng ina i hended that, after all, th e di sq uisition on the subject was un necessary, at least, all the inhabitants, of whatever tenets, had an equal legal right to participate in the benefit of the Cor rations. Practically, however, the Roman Catholics hadexcludedFlora been from the enjoyment of those equal rights, and it was therefore no more tha n a that mockery to tvll. the Catholics in 1793 could claim to be elected to municipal offices—in point of fact they had, since that year, had serious reason to complain of the manner in which the Corporation property had been dis posed of. It certainly had never been intended that they should be excluded from the enjoyment of equal corporate rights, but practically excluded they had been ; and it seemed to him (the Lord Chancellor) therefore to be unnecessary to go further back in the history of Irish Corporations .than to 1793, in order to show that this measure did, in point of fact, do no more than carry out the principle then laid down, that both parties were entitled to equal civil rights in the Corporations. From that year, indeed, the corporap officers had virtually been trustees for the inhabitants at Marge ; and the Roman Catholics had certainly had reason to complain of the man ner in which the trust had been exercised. All were agreed upon this point, that the Corporations could not be allowed any longer to remain as they were at present. In the Bill before their Lordships, a remedy was proposed to remove the existing disease and to effect a cure. On the pro • position of the Noble Lord who last addressed them there was no cure, no remedy suggested. The proposition of the Noble Lord amounted to this—it was as if he said, "If you cure the patient, if you apply an effectual remedy to the disease, if you restore the patient to health, he will become troublesome and boisterous, and, therefore, the best course of treatment is to put an end to him at once." The Noble Lords who supported this proposition ought to consider whether there was no middle course—no milder treatment of the disease for which they had to prescribe. Unless there were insuperable objections to the more lenient course, it was an ex periment that at least was worth trying. The Noble Lord who had just addressed the House had endeavoured to show that his proposition would not be in its results, and was not in point of fact, very different from the proposition upon which this Bill proceeded. It appeared to him that no two things in the world could be more different in every point of view. They proposed a remedy, but the proposition of theNobleLord was death. By the remedy, they proposed the existence, the right, and the property of the Corporations were to be preserved. The rights and the property of these Cor porations was in the population. It was for their bene fit, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the towns ge nerally; and not of any particular class, that the trust was held. Ever since 1793 all classes of inhabitants, without dis tinction of religion, were eligible to fill corporate offices. This, however, was not the case in practice. In consequence of the abuse of self-election the law was not allowed to take its course, and Roman Catholics were excluded. This Bill proposed what was necessary to cure the disease, by placing the trust in the hands of those who were most likely to carry the objects of it into effect. It left the management to persons whose interest it must be to see the trust carried into execu tion. This would be restoring the corporations to the principle of their original institution. In place of this remedy, howe ver, the Noble Lord said let the Corporations cease to exist. Before their Lordships had recourse to so strong a measure as this,very urgent motives should be shown —something amount ing to an insuperable necessity ought to be made out. It was not safe to speculate, a priori, how far the power of the Legislature might be, carried. The property of a Corporation was as sacred as any other property. Their rights were as much under the protection of the laws as any other class of rights, and should not be trespassed upon without any overruling necessity. They had as good a right to their property as any of their Lordships had to their's. " It would be very hard, then, to de prive them of that property against their will. It had teen said that the present Corporations were willing to yield up their rights and their property upon the conditions men tioned by the Noble Lord. That, however, was not the ques tion here. The question was, whether those for whom the present Corporations held the trust were willing to resign their rights—were they willing to make such a sacrifice ? The conclusion to be drawn from the willingness expressed by some of the Corporations to resign their trust was that they would give it up to any one, rather than it should fall into the hands of those who they supposed must get exclusive posses sion of it, if this Bill should be carried into operation. The Noble Lord who spoke last had certainly the merit of giving some little additional weight to an argument used the other night by . his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst). The main argument of his Noble and Learned Friend the other night against this measure rested on an observation said to have been made by Mr. O'Connell, that these Corpora tions would become schools of agitation. ,To this argument the Noble Lord who spoke_ last endeavoured to give addi tional weight by some words which he quoted from a letter written by the Member for Middlesex. Their Lordships, in legislating upon matters of such high• importance, should not allow themselves to be influenced by considerations of what this or that man might say or think. They must go to the real facts of the case. Not, only in that House, but in the other House of Parliament also, the observation said to have been made by Mr. O'Connell had been made the prin cipal ground of argument against this Bill; and the proposition now was to abolish the Irish Corporations altogether, to take their property from them, and to place the management of it in the hands of persons to be appointed by the Crown. How would the Noble Lord who spoke last, or any other Noble Lord, feel, if such a course should be acted upon in his own case? Would he consider it as the most eligible mode of enjoy ing his property—of managing and disposing of what was his own ? It was said by this Bill a class of persons would be ad mitted into Corporations who, from their numbers, must gain an ascendancy—a class of persons whom it would not be right or proper to admit into corporate offices. If it was right and proper in 1793 that the Roman Catholics should be rendered admissible into Corporations it was right and proper now. Nothing appeared in their conduct since 1793 which rendered them worthy of such a trust. It was fully admitted by his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Lvndhurst)—in deed it was admitted upon all hands—that the principle of exclusion could no longer be maintained. ExClusion was the grievance complained of. It was to that they proposed in this Bill to apply a remedy. . What had been the cause of this grievance? The principle of self-election, which always was and always must be an unjust one, because it took away from the great bulk of the inhabitants of a Corporation all controul over the management of corporate property. What was the obvious remedy ? Why, to remove, as was done by this Bill, the practice of self-election, and to give those who had an interest in the due administration of Corporate property some controul over those who were to manage it. That, and nothing more, was the object of the measure now proposed. Ever since 1793, Roman Catholics were admissible into Cor porations. Now from that time to the present had the Legis lature shown any jealousy of them ? Did not their whole course evince feelings of a totally opposite nature ?—(Hear, from Ministers.) Did not the Legislature ever since that period legislate upon the principle of admitting them to equal rights and privileges with all other classes of his Majesty's subjects "? Was it not upon this principle, and in this spVit, that the Le gislative Union between the two countries w`as established ? Was it not upon the save principle that the Emancipation Bill was passed ? Roman Catholics were rendered eligible to t f ia ; g th a o s lic a teats lit the other House of Parliament—they were admitted to sit in that, House —they were eligible to all offices, with very few exceptions.—Mere Lord Fitzgerald made an obscr *Mimi across the table, which was not audible.] He (the Lord Chancellor) referred to these matters, for the purpose of show leg that the principle upon which the Legislature had pro sl 1 were, iother b ec e e t csi r e e ci att l t 4 an i d " Wti vi e df His Majetty's subjCe!ccst.lic a tr s e , a t t h e j at , Roman Catholics had a right to thereiore, iIOW entitled tea wend Members to the other l-tot:2 l .!' of Parliancerit. TheY . enjoyed seats thefessaahey were sitting s .ll7m v an foo iii the IloiiSe di:, Litag--:ititid it was tichi pfo'Pogeti !o refuse them the right of voting ter a €oinfirofiseonireilman,,- fie alder man; or a Lord Mayor.—( Hear, Bear. 110 tidds sfri 6 , 6 i7J3, t 4 right to vote for corporate officers ; but the prin 6 pte of selfseiectien pie6ented theta from exercising it. It was proposed now to annihilate eticti the right. Was that the way to legislate for Ireland ?--s(dheers from Ministersd They were told, in Opposition tb this Bill, that Uothafi atholie majorities, in all these corporate towns, would return Roman Catholics; and none but Itoman Catholics, as corporate officers. Now; to determine thug question; their Lordships ought to look to facts—to what had actually taken plate, and What was tak ing place. Let their Lordships look at the lionse Of dsom=, mons. Though the great majority of those w h o exefeised the elective franchise in Ireland were Roman Catholics, still the majority of Irish representatives in Parliament were Pro teStants.--4Hear, hear.) This was one test by which to try the justice of the apprehensions entertained by those who thought that by this Bill the exclusion of Protestants front corporate office must be inevitable. The whole argument amounted to this—Protestants have kept out Roman Catho lics from Corporations hitherto, and therefore Catholics will in future keep out Protestants.—(Hear, hear.) To try this question, they had the test be before-mentioned—the test that a large majority of the Irish representatives in Parliament were Protestants. There was another test to which he would call their Lordships' attention, and one perhaps snore appli cable to this Bill than the other test ; it was drawn from the 9th Geo. 111., which enabled the towns in Ireland to elect commissioners for the management of the cleansing, lighting, and watching of the streets. Now a majority of th Commis sioners so e lected were Protestants. The right of voting, un der the 9th Geo. 111., was in those who paid a rent of 51., the same class who would enjoy corporate rights under this Bill. Now, with such a class of voters, were Protestants excluded? No, they formed a large majority of those who were elected.— ( Hear,,,hear.) Now this apprehended exclusion of Protes tants, together with the observations of Mr. O'Connell, and of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, were the only arguments be had yet heard against the Bill—the only grounds of opposi tion to it. Hitherto there were no Roman Catholics, with few, or hardly any exceptions, admitted into Corporations . stsav would be open to all classes, and Roman Catho but note offices in the same way lies would be eligible to corporal., ..._ they were to seats' in the °thin House of Partiau.s_ nt. Vague h iddeemed sufficient ffic i e u n po t t n o s a : I of this kind. A few nights back, when feat a salutary measure a o the qt,testicirt before their rs anu appreneiisaaris ott sleet be Lordships was the disfranchisement of a single bdrau gh,he folly concurred with what fell occasion from, his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Lynd hurit; ) He admitted that in such a cage it was the,duty of their Lordships to have it ihatie out upon clear evidence that there wag clear yd urgent ground fdr dis franchisin g the borou g h (Stafford). t was a ease of alleged misapplication of the right Their Lordships refused to f voting for Mem bers of Parliament. ci affitiii the proposition of disfranchisement without inquiry. But here was a far Mote Sweeping proposition, one which went to Ir eland wout furth r ann ihilate all all the Corpo rations in (Hear, hear.) He begged to call their Lordships' qu• attendon for a moment to the p olic y of the proposition made by the Noble Lord for the total overthrow fra of able dem municipal insti tutions in Ireland. It requ ired strong, irregonstra tion of evil before they ought to assent to such a motion. Where was the evidence, where were the arguments, to support it?— ( Hear, bear.) The great ground of objection taken to 'the Bill, was the exclusion of Protestants from corporate offices. It was clear. that where the, majority lay, there, as a m atter of cours e, must be the greater influence. But it was assumed'that this snijo!ity must entiFely conducted,e.xclnudennttheProtestanasts. 'hitherto, „ _...J_. upon the principles of self election, it slid not follo ‘ w that be cause the majority were Catholics the Protestants would be excluded. The very contrary was proved by the double test to which he had before adverted. Was it meant by, was it the object of, the Noble Lord's (Lord Fitzgerald's), proposition to place Itoland, as to Municipal institutions, in a situation to tally and entirely different to that of England and Scot l a nd? In the municipal institutions of both countries evils and abuses were found to exist, and they attempted a cure. Bills passed the Legislature to remove the abuses and to re medy the evils, and now their Lordships were called upon to attempt no cure in Ireland, but to make short work of it, and to put an end to the patient. Was this the way to keep faith with Ireland?—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Was this the way to redeem the promise made at the Union, that she was to have equal laws, equal rights and privileges, with the rest of the empire ?—(Hear, hear.) It was not merely refusing to Ireland what they had given to England and Scot land. It was taking away altogether from Ireland what she had enjoyed for two hundred years—municipal rights and in stitutions. It had been said that Corporations were esta blished in Ireland, not for the benefit of the inhabitants at large, but for special and limited purpoces. If Corporations had not hitherto in. Ireland been the source of so many bles sings and advantages as they had been in other countries, the present evils were mainly attributable to this original fault, of e xclusiveneness in their Constitution. The progress made in civilization in the last two centuries by Europe was mainly owing to municipal institutions. They served to protect the people against the encroachments of the nobility, and the no bility against the oppressions of the Crown, and by giving a sense of security forwarded the great objects of trade and commerce. The great argument advanced in support of the Noble Lord's proposition was, that it would prevent the agi tation which it was said must necessarily arise from the esta blishment of institutions in which ,all would be at liberty to propose and discuss whatever they pleased. Now, the ex perience of all times, and of all places, proved that the very reverse was the case. Was it in this country such a doctrine was propounded—in a state of society, in which, at general elections, or at public meetings, agitation was expected to occur regularly, from time to time--was it in such a state of society they proposed to remove all institutions, that might lead to intermediate political discussion; to do away with all corporate officers who, by their authority, and the respect en tertained for them, might preside over and direct such dis cussions? If meetings were to be held, as they,mtest occa sionally, even after the change proposed by the Noble Lord, would it not be better—would it not be more likely to prevent agitation—if there was a person to preside who might mode rate and controul the passions of men,entertaining different opinions, who, by his influence, might preserve the peace ? The advantage of this measure was, that it would have the effect of diverting men's attention to considerations of local interest, and to corporate objects, and withdraw them from dangerous agitation. It was nothing short of the greatest in consistency and injustice to tell the Roman Catholics that, although they had been admitted to a participation of civil rights with their Protestant fellow- countrymen, they must not have a vote in the election of a lord, mayor or other cor porate officers. Lord ABINGER said, his Noble and Learned Friend had expressed great alarm at the notion of stripping corporate bodies of their property ; but for his pert he did not know what abolishing one Corporation and giving its property to another new Corporation was but stripping a corporate body of its pro perty.—( Cheers.) He did not, therefore, apprehend the ap lication of his Noble and Learned Friend's argument. Sup pose a Corporation had property of its own, which i t would be unjust to take away—could the circumstance of gving it to the new Corporation after it was taken away in any degree mitigate the injustice 2—( Cheers.) If it was trust property the proposition which his Noble Friend (Lord Fitzgerald) had brought forward was, not to take it from the town, but to place it in the care of new trustees, who should be appointed either by the Crown or by a Parliamentary Corporation.— (Hear, hear.) It had been said that to abolish the Irish Corporations was a violent, measure. He admitted that it was a violent measure, and that nothing . could justify such a proceeding but the most pressing necessity ; nothing but a very strong case could sanction its adoption. To him, in the present state of the question, that necessity appeared to exist. When they once consented to abolish Corporations, they had passed the Rubicon.—( Cheers.) Suppose they abolished the present Corporation of Bristol by an Act of Parliament, and created a new Corporation, was not that, nevertheless, abo lishing a Corporation ? If they gave the rights, and privi leges, and property of one body of persons to another body of different persons, was not that apalpable injustice ?—(Cheers.) If they turned out the old, and put in the new, what compen sation could that be to the old ? Would not the new Corpo ration be as great a nuisance as the old ?—( Cheers.) If so, then why not adopt the proposition of his Noble Friend ? If the principle of exclusion was to be adopted, he thought it was the Catholics that ought to be excluded; but, by this Bill, it was clear that it would be the Protestants who would be ex cluded. Under the influence of this Bill, the management iif all Corparate business would be placed in the bands of per Ans of small property, to the exclusion of those of large pr . dr6ty. Now, this was a great objection, because property should al ways be an ingredient in the exercise of power. ,For his own part, he did not see that great necessity which aithared to strike his Majesty's Government for establishing Corporations in Ireland at all. It wartlio' opisien of Adam Smith, and in that opinion he (Lord Abiel6r) perfecelyagreed, that Corpo rations were more iujurious thus hertArriti to trade. For this reason, and the other reasons wtiehile had stated. he should give his support foe the proposition of his Noble 'Friend who had opened the debateeeee(Cheers.). Lord HOLLAND said that tlfe Noble and Learned Lord seemed altogether to have forgotten that the Corporations be longed to the towns, and that the principle of all Corporations was that of a representative government, and that both the Corporation and the property it held belonged to the town. In this opinion be was backed by a great authority, to whom the Noble and Learned Lord would be disposed to pay some respect. He had heard it objected that this Bill went to transfer power from one party to another; but what was it more than transferring the power from the hands of the attorney to the principal—(Cheers)—from those who had usurped it to those who had a right to exercise it ? While speaking of the transfer of power he would take the opportu nity of remarking on another transfer that had struck him as rather extraordinary. He was very curious to know why the proposition now before the House had been transferred by the Noble and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst) to the 'Noble foster father who had that night brought it forward ?—( Cheers and laughter.) He was curious to know why the Noble and Learned Lord had shrunk from the support .r his own child. —(Laughter.) Ii was possible, however, that the Noble and Learned Lord did not think it very becoming in one who had, as the saying was, passed the chair, to propose what, to say the least of it, was a very unprecedented proceedieg ; a proceeding which he Vefy much doubted it was competent to their Lord ships to adopt. It writ possible that the Noble and Learned Lord might have some little bashfulness in becoming the exe cutioner of Corporations which he had not very long since so highly extolled in that House. He lead heard of some wise man who lied said that a year's reading changed a man's opi nion materially: Now the Noble and Learned Lord must have been very studious singe the last autumn. At that time the House would recollect with ~has a happy pencil the Noble and Learned Lord presented its them in a sort of Carlierd ludida the whole procession of lord mayor and aldermeii ertelyed in their robes and furs, and lamented their approaching downfall and yet now, without the slightest remorse, the Noble and Leuerted Lord was for sweep rtfeyere, aldermen, Corporations, and all away, with dift qi T ee rrfetnent's reflection upon their form er v a lue . thq Noble herd did not confine his praises last year to the English ddreortiiiens only, for be enlarged upon the pride which men felt in liAling , eorperate offices, and being thus fa miliarised to liberty by idel discharge of their public duty. What, situation had the Noble atii4 Learned Lord now placed the Hotisd iii by the proposition which he had brought before it ? It was quite itfegular to move any instruction to it Com mittee on a Bill sent till rierli the other House of Parliament. All the precedents upon the 81thiat showed that such a pro eeedinO was not consistent with the v4ftt7,. the dignity, or the hone& of the House. The only precedents kat were to be found were tied lit 1•84 - 4P 3 . one of which was negetthed by the House of Commons, and tl?c other in the Committee of their Lordships' own House. In 103 the' Clerics of the House were directed to search for precedents u pen This . poi nt, and they found two only, neither of which established the safety of the practice. One which had reference to the attainder and impeachment of Lord Denby, showed the danger of such a proceeding. The Bill of Attainder had been sent up by the Commons to be laid on their Lordships' table, and a Noble Lord who was anxious to save Lord Denby, moved, as a direction to the Committee, to leave out the word " attainder," and introduce the word "ba nishment." The consequence was-that the Commons disagreed to this, and the flotiee of Lords had a declaration inserted Or! the journals that the ease of Lord Denby should never be,a pre cedent for any similar proteedirtz. The meaning of passing a Bill through a Committee' vvas, to regulate and complete its details ; but the Committee had no power to touch the princi ple of the Bill, or in the slightest degree to depart from it. The Leap Parlimenti laid it down that the Committee had only to deal with the details, and that the third reading was time for again refing or affirming the principle. The Noble and L earne d Lord did not seem to wish to contaminate his reputation with this prOpositidn, but left it in the hands of the Noble Lord, who had brought it forward in a very able and philosophic speech, such a speech as he believed was never delivered in the introduction of so monstrous and extraordi nary a proposition.—( Cheers.) All were agreed as to the abuses of the Corporation§ in fret red, but that, was no reason that they should be swept away Atagether, iTo would say that Corporations were peculiarly adapted to Ireland, as tend ing to lead to subordination and a due respect fot the laws. Fie con::__ nd ed? u p on the authorit y of Dr. Robertson, and en al e past experiened, tbet e therefotming and keeping up those Cur porations in Ireland wag The beet clay to keep down agitatioen align He would ask, could any Noble LAI teeny wish the a f g e it L at o o rd which now pervaded Ireland to continue his opposite evidently implied tha t he (Lord Irlati:lci)btahlisis more d friends would in reality be happy at the prospeelt being withheld from the people of Ireland, that tiereby the benefit. agitation might ensue, of which they hoped t i o d e He did not deny that the postponement .wou innjcoryease the agi rejoicing at the tation in that country ; but he was far from the e of c t o h n a - t prospect,. as he felt that it would te i a i t h be country a practical lesson to doubt both t and the wisdom u p e e '3 3 stitution in which they sought to p and authority of that branch of th-earLieg-islature which denied them admittance. His Noble Friend had it it _b. were een taunte mam.some th.a wish to , ‘shake off an engagement, _ I nary idea; the creation of their own fancy or policy I But t an e ngagement entered it by he would ask if there was n t o • to Ireland in 1793 e which i s the Legislature with ees eec et _ _ notrepeated • bound to follow tip corsister.l ly? Was it by the Act of Union -es-agent,- by that of Catholic Emancipa tion—and was it not strengthened' 'considerably by the mea sure of Parliamentary:, Reform, combined with that which they gave to England and Scotland last year, in the shapedeof Municipal Reform? The Noble Lewd had cautiously avoi d describing the principles of the Bill he opposed. They w ere those which were already established in England and Scot land by the late Acts of Municipal Reform. It had been sweepiegly pronounced to be a niggardly reform, and yet it was said to the people of Ireland at the same time that they were not fit for it, and did not need it. Now lie wo uld take th is or: him to assert to their Lordships (no t, indeed, on his own knowledge, but on that of others bett er informed), at they were fit for it, and were in great n eed of it. If this principle of sectarian exclusion were now t o be acted on, the great bugbear about whom so many frightful st ories had been told--(Laughter)—would naturally agitate his country- men again and again to trouble their Lordships, s aying, We are not fit company for you I why, then, did you invite 'us to the dinner ?"--( Laughter.) He thought that many of these d ancient Corporations, which in time of gre at peril had stood forward to save their country , deserved better of it than to be destroyed altogether—it would be both ungrac ious and unwise to say to the majority of the Irish people , " You have had Catholic Emancipation, you have had parliamentary Reform, but you shall not have corporate reform ; and though the law give it to you individually, and the spirit of the British Con stitution would render the reform universal, you shall.not have it." That was the principle of the instruction. The Noble and Learned Lord who spoke last had declared that the pre servation of the old set of Corporations, or the e stablishme nt of new opes, was thonly choice betwee two puisances. The - Noble and Learned ` Lord had appeared to him at first filled with the inspiration to sing— " Darius, great and good, By too severe a fate, Fallen, fallen, fallen, fallen, Fallen from his high estate." (Laughter.)—But in conclusion he had— " Changed his tune ;" (Laughter)—and, at last - " Seized a flambeau, with zeal to destroy." He heartily hoped the House would take it out of his hands, and prevent the threatened mischief, and help him to see things as they really were.—(Laughter.) He contend ed that the - surest way to prevent faction and sedition was to give the people a just share of their own Government, and allow them to know and feel the advantages of conducting it on a good principle. Allusion had been made to the modes of Municipal Government prevalent in Russia; but be it right, or be it wrong, Municipal Government is •the principle of the British Constitution, and cannot be denied without injus tice to that portion of its subjects resident in Ireland.—(Cheers.) Long might it remain the principle of that Constitution I and it would be the most short-sighted policy to attempt to shut them out from the enjoyment of it, while they declared their intention to let them in, or (as it had been coarsely but strongly expressed) " to give them the key while you spoil the lock. If they succeeded in this exclusive policy, they would leave Ire land a field to practices at which the mind recoiled. After all he begged to remind their Lordships that agitation was, the true Conservative pripciple of society—(Laughter)--aaa was a far better medium of preservation for everything and than the most ancient prescriptive axioms. Their Lord ships were great Conservatives just now, for they were agi tating most decidedly.—( Laughter.) But agitation might be right or wrong according to its objects and exercise. Lord LYNDHURST said that he had already made all the observations he intended on this Bill, and had, therefore, given the subject of the instruction into the bands of his Noble Friend. The Noble Lord had charged him with having, in the last session of Parliament, advocated the Corporations of England, and accused him of inconsistency in now wishing to abolish those of. Ireland. But surely the Noble Lord could not seriously accuse him of inconsistency in advocating the preservation of the rights and interests of the Corporations of England, which were all of a character widely different from those of Ireland, and were in fact identified with the prin ciples, feelings, and interests of the great and respectable majority of the people. In Ireland it was far otherwise. The Corporations there were all of a solitary and exclusive character, and unconnected with the sympathies of the mass of the population. But, in defending the Corporations of England, he had never advocated the keeping u p exclu sive power in the hands of a party. The Noble Lord had asserted that his Noble Friend had acted in an irregular, unusual, unparliamentary, and unconstitutional manner in bringing forward this instruction but he had not attempted to adduce a single authority or decision to that effect. (Lord Holland) had stated that, according to the usage of that House, an instruction might be moved to a Bill that originated there, but could not be moved on a Bill sent thither from the other House. Now he begged to set the Noble Lord right on that point. In 1803 a Bill passed through the Lower House for renewing the Bank Charter, and was then introduced to their Lordships, when Lord Grenville moved an instruction directly opposed to the sp of the ,Bill, that Roman Catholics should be admitted mem; hers of the Court of Directors, and the Noble Lord and all his friends voted for it.—(Cheers.) So much for the point of form on which the Noble Lord had laid such authoritative ste3s. He did not understand the argument of the Noble Lord on the Woolsack. He charged him (Lord Lyndhurs t) with inconsistency in opposing the disfranchisemen t of the borough of Stafford, and in advocating that of the Irish Corpo rations. Now, in opposing the Stafford Bill he had expressly stated that he viewed it as a case of individual delinqueneY• The case of the Irish Corperations was quite another thince-- --- (Hear.) They, according to the showing of the Noble 'Nris count, were worthy of disfranchisement : but did that Noble Lord therefore propose to demolish them ? By no means' He said that it was for the benefit of the towns in Ireland tbas they should be retained. If he (Lord Lyndhurst) thoug ht so, he would also vote for the Bill, but believing far other wise, and that mischief would be the result, he opposed i t. (Cheers.) Some time since an attempt was made to open ti g Corporation of Sligo by a proceeding in the King's 13e,n e a the result of which afforded a lesson worthy of the consiaer; tion of the House. The Court decided that it had th e pew- , but refused to open the Corporation, as it appeare d it was.t-, close one from the first, and had consistently persevered in original course. All the Irish Corporations had in fact beeci close ones (with the exception of a few), from the reigns - Elizabeth and James the First to the present day. The n, e tion, therefore, of reforming, or regulating , or renovating thes" Corporations by the mode laid down in the Bill was an l‘trav vagant absurdity. The real question for their consideration was, whether it was more beneficial to vest the management.% the corporate property in the hands of those whom the tow might choose, or in those chosen by the Crown. The pro poses, perty consisted of two kinds—funds for charitable purd, and for the benefit of the town. Government had afr.e d a A vested that for charitable purposes in the hands of indivi u,_. Commissioners, and his (Lord Lyndhurst's) friends would enti do the same with the property of the towns, for the beuci_atf., the towns. The Corporations are virtually extinguishedoigi the Bill. He (Lord L.) met-him and acceded to it. lie W oo f liot advocate exclusive power. What , th en, should, so substitute for it ? The supporters of the Bill h ad e Ino reason for setting up new Corporations ; th et , trary, by their own argument, it would be pregnant mischief, and nothing good would be. gained Y,,0 But did he, therefore, reject the Bill altogether 7 I he had a great regard for the Bill, and intended tech ravi the largely on it.—( Hear.) They had already adeP. sra tion , machinery it embodied relative to charities—the admiluseeutio of justice—the appointment of magistrates—the distriu of Church patronage, &c. They took the clauses--; ta ar i u adopted the principles. After these powers and " bat re taken from the Corporations by the Noble Viscount, s7aehi g mained? The other proper municipal functions of man y paving, lighting, and cleansing are also taken away s a id the towns, and given to certain 'Commissioners. But , som e- Noble Viscount, that the new Corpora tions may ha v r e oms oi thing to do, we will take away these du ties from the 11 an d sioners, although the report says they discharge them a s l , l o. b _ ter.) effectively, and give them to the town council.—( there Was it surprising, then, that they should say::: Hea r.") was no use in creating Corporations ?—(Cries ccupieds Let the Commissioners remain well and usefully 0 as they arc, and let there be an end of the Corp.orautinoiicisi: His Lordship looked to the expense of these intendre.ocl _l f f e lt pal arrangementsewhich he was sure would be SC r ec o rder , in Ireland. There were Magistrate, Town Clerks, a the and Attorney-General, to be paid, " and other offi ' e r e e r c ollec ted discretion of the Town Council."—( Hear.) money matters were to be managed by a party-- v ( 0 ~ be the. that the theatre of these operation was Ireland,HaendoctV btbeessrl —where, under all the circumstances, jobbing % r ewue ot natural consequences.—( Hear.) Then there was es lay would in giving compensation to officers, so that the old (T ree.) The evitably be turned out to make room for new.—(n an nual e lec arrangements also brought them all the evils ° liss made out' tions, which would require notices to be given , . I ' n __ ea se e and polling-books prepared—all, of course, at tl triad t e e _ a ll e y the town. Then watchmen are to be activitypaid—prov foe extra allowance—wages and extraordinary .., er , tb come out of the borough funds. But where d e bt ot hers the 53 funds ?-4 Hear.) Some of their - estates were had not more than 500 L, and others 1,000 1 . a the ,I„,abitteit car ries, &c., must, therefore, be paid by rates on for ot er, The town lists were, it appeared, to be tiality's sake) the first year by the churciliht!(cil°,etnsb,e"dnidsmcioetiseidd wards by the town clerk of the council, whotr,..n niede pro" at pleasure.—( Hea.) A more objectio ations 13"1,orcl scarcely be struck out. The English CorP vided for the division of the towns into wardsj o ra c e p d ,Z i o r n Ba ships took care that it should not. come into s P was completed; but in Ireland, provided the to oor u .. meat, the elections might go on without any lo cal ture from . due influence, and the-masses of the town strange dePa` introdu thing before them. This was as e The 00 principle of the English Bill.—( Hear, heair.e. wld c arry ev the e judieie ji as ' ac c of twit of annual elections, too, was particulardytio the l"' Ll e e- oun; was charged with haying needlessly referre stated that town l i c yco one individual in that country. He had u b e be te , oils would be the seats of agitation and s , d e it r i e ll c f t for him in it, After such a belief what course was i t yv a hose testill a i t o pursue? He had selected au individua.was the in cliv t i e e _ f corrobnra,oo Cr that instance was beyond exception ; that whom he referred as haying made use .( O ) P i by 300 or said by t ee pression. was heard on that oc 1 V i c o It w as c the b e sons ; could there be a doubt on the su e nefit of this Bill for amending her muniucr say a let hcr, ba c v a c use h a a supporters of theßill, wasnot Ireland to . b e . e a su i liceorrejci,otroahtiaoslis ? it ; i b i u l t L was a benefit he ( Lord Lyndhurstpltiroary. It was a ' i e l u ninix e , he believed it to be the direct cobnelieve dit to beioo. undbey believed so, and also because he s br " la els a the English Act all large townsa f„ Corpora tion arL d it is . :, 10 evil, that he should give it his mohsatdlitchaurtiy,oo,.vP.ePres a pplY ieg '. to petition to the King in Collins tle Act, u n der '!.? matter 'of course for his Majesty e result of that suc h ar s t ' Had 9-" Y ora those sanctioned by the principletu advice of his Council. Wha i t at w a m.iyileg e uss col , au ti g ' rant it tlic'll poem What bad proceeded fror , ?,t desire to po.sisi had n°ll d plication been made ? D a t go n t n n one n hadi festapitself i rt, for it. h i t o . s e ,N. g u r e t a ta single manifestation