The Sun. — London, England, 1818-03-10 00:00:00

ime , been :,501 tl' LIJeC ,e 9 tic 1,!t: • .'nob routed him, 'to teltom h e wat makin an in fletuttettoryspeeche whieli h e abus e d the g Prince Regent. Au individual, tvith whom he (Mr.: L - 'was aeepainted, had remonstrated with Oliver on Tcomthet, hut he still cottlittued his speech. .• 4he'tesidt was known to the Hoese. 'cite rrilic , !grnt ploceeded tO Parliamentee-w as insulted.by the popelace, and the Habeas Curette Act was suspended. Under all the circuit's! auces of the ,case, before a bill like the present should pass, he bad a right to denoted that a lull investigation of the conduel of Ministers should take ce. In The course be had t a k en on th i s occasion pla be had too motive but a eish to do his duty to his coml. .tq, that when the ptoper time arrived he might 'present himself with a coweienc:e clear aunt tinsel lied at its her.- He now moved as an amendment, that the Bill should be read a first time on that "day six mouths. Sir M. w. RIDLEY, RS 110 * I - 1911. Alember on ,the op pos i te side lied ri s e n . to answer Hen. :Geetletnan who had last spoken, rose to offer a few words on the quiestion. From a review at ,the situation of the "country itt 1715, 1745, 1780, and at other periods of het history, he cuntended that no precedent could be sheers fur the present 1101 , but that furnished by the Act of 1801, w hich had it) fact been passed by the present GO 'veismeet, w h o w ere i n opinion too ready to "eh at a p rece d eet wh i ch they had made for tl'lllselees. The A c t, it now s:0011, carried ~1. Itelemnity. back so far as- January 12, 1817. " .would ha ve s h e i vn mo ue regard for;th e i r it character had they mede it co-exte ns i ve t ,:ith the I3iil for the Sespeneitie of _the Habeas , Act. O ut 01 theof persons taken up ( "der tl, Suspension of th e Habeas Corpus A c t, it appear„d thet..fitty-ene had been aires,ed by street s t rain the Se.•retary,of State, and tour by aF raets- trout,the Privy Coun c il 'The remain c'er, or unrest of them, bed been 'taken ep on war \it"' isseed by th e Ain.istt of DerhYshire, ' ut tieghartishire, and other places. Of the fifty persons taken up limier the warrants issued b y the Secre tar y o f S tate , not one haul . been I , l "ifeht to tr i a l ; four arrested on those of . ` l° PI ivy Council had been brought to trial an d -etleitted. Perh a p s h e miglie be told that this the ass with which Govertintent haul bet he Was . reciter inclined to think it ,We.i On what triveloes grotinds the Habeas Act Had been sus)ended. - He then re ihaiked on - the !nimble situation of thoe fruit!, Nv ie - en So touch dancer had been apprehended, t 'hi filially hoped the Bill -.would not pas, wbbent ",tte timber inquiry being first instirutted e -as if it 'dirt 11 li t!, the H ouse would go a step further than it a'L. ever done before, in opposition to the free of the Constitution. IN - 11. • PetereettOE was of opinion, that if no Pet e !' were brought forward of Ministers- hav ing li sed the power s which had teen confided to them utunseieutioesly and u pri g h t l y , a Bill o f I ndemnity C" P r existiou ciretenstauceswas necessary and . ' rriper. They' ought to be- protected, .and he oeld trot bet think that it would he wrong to I make titi.un give up th e souece S fr om w hi e b t h ey d derieed the information On which they had should reserve hintselt, on th e d eta il s of t `lr he' till it got into a Committee. y ST HopE considered th a t th e Mi n i sters ..10b " 1 firmly but mildly exerc i se d the powers „ crop to them' by Parliament ought to be pro tected by a hill of Indemnity. The suspeosion of the Habeas Cerp us Act was necessary at the time it t ""k l'he• it was made an argioneut agaiust I t that disterbeuees had afterwards broken out, as l i t . was now that trantieill oy had been rest o r e d e belieVed that it had repressed but not excited Itisterbances, and when the present situation of t.he country was consider e d, i t ' ought not to be tuought that because we were now well, we had Havel' been sick ;, nor was it tight, when the dis ease had diealqieared, to complain of the ittefficecy tlf , tile. rem e d y li e strongly insisted, that after ',,"taining 441:nation o f importance to th e S tate , '"(!frt those who were capable of affording it, they • I n uit' ill perform their dirty, if they were now . tv a t le lY to give them to the vengeance of those ti e practices t h ey h a d di scovered. I t some of rY e . agents of- Government h a d - overs ' eppe d t h e 11) e which they ought to have observed, it did 1 , 7 . 't kno w th at Ministers w ere t o h e bl ame d .— "Id it be right to try a General for every enor 4`Y that might be committed by ever y sta b a l tern. 1 - his arm y ? But those wh o h au l .furni s h e d i nfor - R ,!"`ull to Ministers ought not to be treated with at severity. If s uc h a eourse - were taken, the I ' : e t-3 , w ou ld be most injurious. Supposing a n e di ri test man, introduced to the society of conspi e c)r a ag ainst the G overnment , in an unguarded i r)c ant 0 ; when a returning sense of duty should te ' t , l him to repent, an d ma k e C o - hi s country "4 ly atonement in hi s p ower , b y di scover i ng I A Nets which h e k new to b e in progress, what 4 ,1 d be so lik e ly not on l y to prevent, hi m trout ti e "g this, b ut to urge hi m to persevere in fur- f ee ri ng th e v i c i ous d es i gns o f those wit-h wham he 4 0 ' !NI himself associated, than the conviction that so.he should be accuied of treachery, an d eff„" up to the resentment o f t h ose w h o m i ght he te; t et ed by th e di sc l osures h e m i ght make ? It was At a ir. Oliver that haul excited that spirit of dis teteelion whi c h had pervaded the country, hot re lebt‘ Mr. Cobhett, an d t h ose w h o, li ke him, had e til ° "red by their w r i t i ngs to i n fl ame t h e pass i ons it e nli slead the understandings of the p eo pl e . litliSMeTte (of 'Cambridge) consid ere d that ill colar cases a B i ll of Indemnity m i g h t b e pro ttor'Y. called tor, but in the present i nstance b e di d t ee t ' f rom any thi ng th at was k nown to have ," plac e , bold it to be at all necessary. H e ef:"ed to look at the amount o f t h e jueo nee . which would arise if that evidence were 'te cl osed which Mi n i sters were so anxious to coe e el . Our of the list of persons that had•been lee tl Up, 49 was the utmost n um b er t h at could %.-action s against the Secretary of State. Of eq eB e 49 many h a d left t h e eountry, aunt, many te"ers(who he admitted were infamous charae - e „ r s), would not risk the exposure of their elta- 1 Ceters in a Court of Justice. There might i r e two or three who would bring actions, and h.this were done, where would be the mighty 1 4 rne of disclosing the evidence received against Cose few individuals. If the informer should oved to haVe spoken, truth be ' ,A ve little t o d read would , and if h 11,61 ten truth he oug e had not ht to be exposed and-11u- nishetl irrsteati of being pent tied by this Bill inconvenience to ivhich these persons would he exposed, was no greater than that to which num hers were exposed at the .-close of every ASS'Ze In Yorkshire, in the year 1813, seventeen persons were convicted of being concerned in the disturb ances which had taken place in that neighbour bond. 'The Ivitues , es were however returned im• me di a t e ly on th e bosom of that society, where they had lived ever after - unmolested by their neighbours. At least nothing to. the contrary was known. He objected to the preamble of the Bill, from the countenance it seemed to give to the Spy system, which, however, he thought had been, in some instances, condemned with an ho ttest but too severe indignation on that sale of the House, while it was treated with too much tenderness by the other. in this respect he coul4 wish a middle course to he kept. Though in or dinary times the use of Spies could not be too se verely reprobated, there were exigencies when almost any man would av iii himself of their as sistance if he were in the situa ioo of a Secretary, of State. After all that had he advanced on this subject, that might he -alit of spies• t% Lich Dr 'Johnson had said of ghosts---" All reasoning is against them, hut all experience for them."— Where men so far overstepped the lioe marked I for their observance, a s to l a b our t o p ro d uce the [ treason they were intended to prevent : , tt:ey ought to be 'nought to puni3lonent. No foimer Bill of llndemnity bad been granted under circum stances similar to those with- which this Bill was connected. That of 1.801, which was brought forward at a time when th e principl e s. or the French Revolution hail triumphed for eight years on the Continent, was passe' under very (Wei ent circumstances. When he compared the year 1801 with the last year, the only test-m , il•a_ne e he could discover was this—=that the Habeas,,Cor pus Act had been suspended in‘ both. It .vat a melancholy reflection that the victory of NVater ! 100, tile triumphs of our Allies, and rig? recur rence to legitrtiih'e Governments on the Contiueg, • sh.inid have led to the same measure which Mr. I'itt had been forced to ti ive recourse to, atter t wo'vears of unsuccessful war, when the French revolutionary principles were at the acute of their power. He took a view of the insurrection in Derbyshire, and trom the insignificant . 111VAIIS o 4 the conspirators, contended the danger of the country na(l not been so great as was soptiosed Iu Yorkshire he• was j ute not a Sin tlt Magistrate could be tonod who had a ci c al in 1512 and in 1817, who would not declare the disturbances in the former ye g to have been more formidable (though the t . ii.Speusiou of the Ilabeas Corpus Act wits not thought of t- en.) than were those which oeoinred last year. Those who I had suffet - ed front being confioed under the Ha i hefts Corpus Suspension Act, ought be allo‘sed to .bring their actions, and he thought it would be better that any damages they u.igir recover should he paid oat of the Secret S , rs ice Money, than that I such a precedent should be formed as twouldbe I established if this Bill were passed. Mr. Bakst) said, the manner-in which the At ; torneF-Ge , :e;-al this night argued, from 411.. cient precedents, would of itself be sufficient to Makt him pause before he vote,i for it. They were now called upon to wak , a precedent, by passing a Bill •of Indemnity in a tiin of profound peace, and lie thought tinder circumstances the most inadmissi ble. The csiurse which had been pursued had vit. 1(14 4 con verte d our free Constitivirro -lot() all qr. bitrary Goveinment. [-le was not satisfied with • the measure that had been adopted, nor with the means by which it had been hrought forward,' • namely, the Reports of Committee's appOinted by Ministers themselves to decide on the merits of their own conduct. He did not "know th at i t would be„well to pay any damages +hat might he recovered out of the Secret service Money, as one Hon Member visited should be done : bat of this he Was sure, that those who had suffered ottjustly ought not to be precluded' trom seeking tedress by legal means. To permit this would he to act in coutradiction to the Coustitution—would be to make a wrong for which there would be no re medy. He hoped in some way Ministers would enable those who might have suffered unjustly .o recover damages for losses really sustained. He did- fiat mean to say that Ministers had used the power confided to them oppressively. He be- Ifeved they had not done so ; but he had no Par liamentary ground for being satisfied of this—no Parliamentarygroutid t +r passing the present Bill. The Parliament of Hoglaiol was bound to reject, in 'mine, a Bill, the professed object. of which was to exclude a portion of the people from the exercise of those rights to which they had an he reditary claim, for the benefit aacl security of Mi nisters. Mr. MARRYATT was one of those who last year opposed the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and he now looked back upon his vote with great satisfaction, as it had fumed out that none of those taken up under it tild been proved guilty. Those only had been convicted of trettion who I;v1 'wen taken up by the Mgistrates in the re., gidar way. This, however, would not influence his vote on the present occasion. Frc►tn the mo ment the Bill had passed into a law, it became the duty of Alinistets io endeavour to give it - effect, 41 the best wanner they were able. 'fhe question now before. the house was, whether or not the Government had abused the powers con fided to them, or whether they had a c ted on t h em with fair discretion and moderation. Ile saw no ground for charging Ministers with an abuse of Ike power with► which they had been entrusted. He therefore thought, not to give them a Bill of Indemnity would he just as arbitrary and opines sive as the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act had been last year. 'l'hoi►gh lie had been opposed to that measure, he should vote in favour of the Biil now before the House. Lord ALTHoRVE - maintained that none of the precedents .which ha►d been referred to were at all applicable to the present case, "with the excep tion of the Act of Indemnity passed in 1801. Even that did not justify the Bill now before the Iluitse. It was it - upos;iiile that in every case of the ninety-six persons ‘Ybo had bceu lake!) up, the.clisclosure -of the evidence on which the 81.- rest had taken place could be seriously inconve nient. It (here were but one ill which the cvi- deuce colt Id be produced wit bont inconvenience to the service of the State, the House would not ' do justice if it prechrled that .In!tividual from set-king redress by passing, the present Bill. At all events an inquiry ought to take place before a Bill of lndemnily passed that was materially dif ferent from any one that had* ever beftire passed into a law. • Mr. FREEMAN TLE s a id , that ti) maintain his own consistency and the consistency of Pat liament, he felt it his duty to support the, Bill before the House. The arguments now adduced were ap plicable to' the question before the House last year, when The Suspension Act was in debate, and not to the present question, for they all re ferred to the circumstances of the Country last year, and whether or no they were such as to render necessary the measures last year adopted. All this had nothing to dO with the immediate question. His own opinions relative to the state' of the country d►tr•ing the last year were the same now as they had been then. lie always thought that there was serious cause for apprehension in the state of the country last year. Nor was he the only Member piton his side of the House (I he- Oppnsit too) who t bong lit there was (hanger; Amongst others, a character whom he had alti•ays held in the highest veneration, namely, the late Mr. Ponsonhy, felt the extent of the danger. That high character declared ht his , place, t hat before he had gone through the evidence laid before the Secret Committee, he did not believe that there Was real cause for apprehension; but that, having ex"-'mined that evidence, he was convinced of time danger, and said, that if lie had been in the Cabinet, be would have adopted the same ge neral measures that had been adopted by Govern ment, alt bough, ern some of the measures adopted, his (Mr. Ponsonby's) opinion was different. On what argument, then, was this Bill opposed ! The only real gronod, if indeed it existed, was, that the powe;s confided to time Government had been abused. And on what was this charge founded % On vatements contained in Petitions, every one of which had been disproved. lie could not but look upon this Bill. as. a part of the great system on which Parliament had acted with such benefit to the country, as a duty which Parliament owed to those who had execute& the powers with which they had been entrusted. 1, was therefore in pertect consistency with all his former opinions, hut he should give his vote for this hear !) Mr. BRAND Lord NUGENT agreed that the question of In demnity ought to he considered as perfectly dis tioct from the circumstances of the country last year; and he thought that there was a peculiar dwy on those who voted for all the measures last year adopted, to insist upon a. full inquiry into the conduct of the Alinisters in the exercise of the powers committed to them. The opinions of the late Mr. Ponsonby had been alluded to ; but he begged the House to recollect, that his lamented friend had voted against the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus, and had expressly stated that he serily bell , ved that the existing laws were adeqUate for the pre servation of the public safety. If Mr. Ponsonby Were still alive, no doubt he would on this occa sion have preserved his consistency, not after the manner of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Free mantle), but ,by voting against such a measure as. the present Bill. Under what circumstances was this Bill brought torward ? Was it not when the table of the House was crowded with peti tions, setting forth accounts of unheard-of cru elties exercised against the petitioners in the mode acid time of their imprisonment. It was said, indeed, Altar the petitioners were persons of bad character. But admitting that these, persons were guilty of the crimes for which they were eorn 7 mitred, then how were Ministers to be justified for discharging such dangerous persons from cus tody walkout trial ? This case, and this was a sufficient reason why Ministers should not be sheltered by a Bill of Indemnity. One of the great grounds on which this Bill was founded, was the Report of the Secret Committee of this Session, which he was justified in considering as the accredited manifesto of Ministers. But by whoin,was that Report made ? Was it not by the Committee nominated and ch osen by themsetves ; and wh a t was it that the C ommittee examined It was evidence not given upon oath ; not given viva voce, but selected and chosen by the sery Ministers whose conduct was in question. Too flinch had, perhaps, been said'of the sources from which Government had derived their information, and of those horrid Miscreants who had been found in their employment. • But he could not refrain Iron' observing' that.a Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. B. Bathurst) had promised to make some statement relative to the connexion of Oliver with the Derby conspirators, which he said would at once decide the opinion of the House ou that subject. But the Right Hon. Gentleman had not I yet made any such statement. lie had indeed said with respect to the dying decl►+ration of Torner, in which he accused Oliver, that some disaffected peisons out of gaol had found means otcominunicating with Turner during hiS confine went, and instigated him to use the expressions alluded to. Rut, .for his own part, he could not believe that this was possible, o 1 that Derby Gaol, or any other Gaol in the kingdom, was so badly guarded as to render it possible that this could have been the case. It, as a juryman, he was to judge Ministers from the Report of the Secret Committee of this year, he would declare before God anti his conscience that he thought them There was then a loud call for the question, and the House divided— Ayes Noes • 190 Majority fur the Bill —l26 The ATTORNRY-GENTERAL then moved that the Bill be reid a second time, and named to-morrow as the day. lit.tounTlAM Sala, that surely it could not he intended to have this Bill pressed to'a second reacting to• mdrrow, wive') there was'so much other business of importance that was likely tO occupy the House to a late hour.' This was a very extra ordinary course, not less so than hit in the whole o f the debate this night there had been a perfect silence on the other side of the house; nut one Member on the Treasury had taken any part in the debate. It seemed that against all the arguments so forcibly nrged in opposition to this Bill, the only answer which Ministers intended to. make was by their majority. This looked very Inticb like treating- the !loose with contempt ; and at this time, when in ten days they VV6 e all to be sent to the countty—w nen, indeed, it was inder.• st,od that a dissohnion of Pat liament itselt was to take place---it was an exp,o - inent which might be, tried safely perhaps for Ministers as lo its imme• diate result, but it anght be more difficult to an swer for .its .remoter coustom aces It might be vet y well to greet these majorities the cheer iug which had just taken place, which meant as flinch as saying, " we knew we were right." Not right upon Oat. merits of the case, but in reckon ing npoti a large majority in their favour. The lion. Aide' man (Sir W. Curtis) hi e SaaY w-as Melt amused, and it was impossible to look at the good humoured face •of the worthy Alderman without catching some portion of what it so s t r o ng ly ex - - pressed; he must acknowledge that he enjoyed the Hon.,Alderman's cheering as much as he seemed to do himself, because he verily believed that the Honourable Alderman Noted wilt the majo rity, and cheered,the majority, without beitig able to give on e s i ng l e reason f ur his vote or hi s chee?. Ule must admit that a majority was an unanswer able argumeut. sisters, triumphing in their majority, might be careless how fae - ir . concerned the House or the Country that the Bill sh o uld be hurried through its various stages. •Tht-y thought themselves sure of their nombers. That was-the argument on which they rested. No matter how notch it might be the duty of Members to deliver their opinions and reasons upon such a Question ; they seemed resolved that nothing should be had trout. them butt votes: But if they persevered in fixing the second reading for to-morrow, when it must come on at a very late hour, from .the Ares- , sure of other most important business (for there were several notices of motions of great interest which stood for to-morrow, and it was a day out which notices preceded orders), if they were re solved to persevere, it only remained for those who had to combat against a majority, and not against arguments, to avail themselves of the pro tection of the forms of the House, devised by the wisdom of our ancestors, so wisely, as it now appeared, to guard against such an abuse and con tempt of the ordinary course of proceeding in measures of such interest and importauce; he therefore gave notice, that if to-morrows was the day appointed, to these forms he would resort, - and he trusted he would be supported in availing himself of them in so flagrant a.case. L.crd CASTLEREAGH sand, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman seetned to think that his M+ siy's, Mi nisters, by not having spoken in the course of this - debate, sheaved a contempt for the House, and neglected a duty which was expected trout them. lint if the Hon. Geutlenrajt himself had exerted himself on this occasion, op which he se-eined to think it "to much the duty of every Member to bring forward such arguments as occurred to hint, for ar against the measitre, they might probably have produced the effect of calling up some of the Members on his side of the House, and of pro longing the debate. But_why did not the Hon. Gentleman himself take a part in the debate ? If he blamed others for not arguing in favour of the Bill, why did not he 'himself argue against it ? Instead of that, however, he had remain ed in his hiding place till the debate was over— (Laughter.)Ht •was understood, indeed, that the Holt. and Learned Gentleman was kept hack on this and recent occasions by election busitress— (Hear, hear !)—with, which, indeed, the Hon. Gentleman mu the present occasion seemed 10 be more conversant than any other ; for he hail told the House what was as new probably to them as it Was to him (Lord C.), that Pa'rliament was to be dissolvedin a fortnight—(blear, hear !) But, indeed, he never saw powder more wasted than that which the Hon. and Learne,i Gentleman fired off on this occasion—(Laughter.)—As for the menaces of the Honourable 'to& Learned Gen tleman, he hoped his Honourable and Learned Friend, (the Attinney-Gencral) would be not one whit deterred by this newly-awakened of of the Hon. and' Learned Gentleman opposite, but would continue to fix the second reading for to. sorrow, according to the established it were found that the other husineis of the House should occupy theta to-morrow till too Fate an hour, then the appeal of the Hon. and Leaned Gentleman would have come in its proper place.— (Hear, hear !) Mr. BROUGHAM rime, amid cries of " Spoke! spoke !"—He had hcen so very personally alluded to by the Noble Lord, that he really thOnght himself entitled Jo the indulgence of the House to say, that as :he Noble Lord seemed to accuse him of a dereliction of his duty by his silence on this and other recent occasions, be felt it necessary to say, that he had been sileut only because he felt that any thing which he could say would be so perfluous from what he heard said by Members on the other side of the House. Sir S. 1105111.1. y said that he wifidd move, aq an amendoirtit, that the. second reading be fixed for Wednesday instc-ad of to-morrow.—Certainly the courSe . of,the debate to•night had been very ex traordinary, fur the speakers had been all of one side of the House. NVII n the reasons urged in favorer of a measure had been answered, and sa tistactorily answered, it certainly was usual that those on the other side. should say something in reply. The Noble Lord, indeed, said that the silence on the Ministerial Benches was caused by the silence at his Ho:mutable anti Learned Friend . (Mr.Bronghain). it seemed th‘at his Hon. and Learned Ftiend advanced with the force of his great talents, leis Majesiy's Mi nisters were not to say a word ; Si) that his Hort. _ and Learned Friend had only to keep in Ins place, and refrain front speaking, and hencetorth Mini sters would be dumb. Wl►ar object was there in thus bullying the present Bill, since it would have a retrospective effect, and since• what passed to night sufficiently she wed that Ministers were sure it would pass it . Mr. ;CANNING said the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman Stated wine rules as to the forms of debate Which were true in themselves, bot nit in their app.lieation to the present case. It was trite that to-night all the speaking had been upon the miler side 'ot the Ifoi - tse, bnt certainly not all on . the • j • same side of the question.—(Hear, bear !)—The reason why there was a want of occupation on this side the louse was that the work had been taken out of their hands.—(licar, hear I) k