The Sun. — London, England, 1838-07-03 00:00:00

It is not easy for persons who ate, as it were, bystanders to discover any sufficient reason to warrant Mr. Ward in re-pttoducing the appropriation question in the House of C mons last night. It has already been patiently dis , ,cussed and deliberately decided once in the present Session, carthe motion to rescind the resolutions of 1833, when it was determined that they ought to remain upon the Jour nals, although Ministers admitted the inexpediency at the present moment, and under. ,existing circumstances, of acting upon them. Perhaps : r. Ward considered himself pledged to his constituents to revive the subject, or perhaps, haling himself been the originator of the plan (as he claimed to be on the late occasion), he felt a sort of paternal affec tion for it, and was unwilling to abandon his otrn offspring, which the Tories repudiated, and which the Whigs were willing to allow to sleep for a while in quiet. We do riot see what practical good Mr. Ward was to accomplish by the course he took ; he must have been aware that he should be supported by neither side of the House, and that his efforts would be as gratuitous as futile. At the same time we fully acquit him of any design to embarelvii the Government ; and certain it is, that whether he did or did not persevere in his notice of moving an instruction to the Committee on the Irish Tithes Bill, it could make no dif ference to Ministers, who were last night prepared, as in May last, to adhere to the principle of appropriation, al though they did not propose on this occasion to carry that principle into effect. Lord Morpetli, who answered Mr. Ward in his short and forcible speech, was very distinct and intelligible upon this point : " We have not," said his Lordship, " in any respect changed our opinions upon the question of the appropriation of the surplus of the Irish Chinch. We hold to them as firmly as ever. Twice we have brought in Bills to carry out that principle, and twice they have been rejected. What, then, is to be fi.:)ne ? For the peace of Ireland it is necessary that a Tithe Bill should be made law, and the present objec tionable system amended. If we introduce an appropriation clause, we know that the meast - .le will be thrown out elsewhere; and are we, be. cause we cannot 0.0 all the good we wish, to remain inactive, and attempt to do none? 'We bring forward the Bill as it stands, in the hope that it will obtsan the sanction of the Legislature, and that it will promote the peste, and thereby increase the happiness and prosperity of Ireland." This reasoning was so conclusive that nobody attempted to prove it to be otherwise, and it put. all that Mr. Ward had advanced in the shape of quotations from the former speeches of Ministers beside the present question. They still consider the appropriation principle essential to the permanent welfare of Ireland ; they feel assured that sooner or later it must be carried ; but they wait until the progress of public opinion shall have produced a change in its favour : in the mean time they do all they can to supply a remedy, and it is not their fault if it be partial and inadewate. :' What they can give they freely now bestow ; VVhat give hereafter, they must wait to know." The speech of Mr. O'Connell was of a threatening and somewhat alarming character. He voted in 1835 in favour of the appropriation clause ; but he ex pressed his determination to oppose Mr. Ward's mo tion last night, not for the reason assigned by Lord Morpeth, but because, if carried, 'it would be a mere delusion. The Roman Catholics of Ireland, he asserted, would never rest satisfied until they had obtained the extinction of tithes ; whereas, if the appropria tion clause were adopted, it would accomplish little or nothing in the way of relieving them from an unjust and intolerable burden. He maintained that the present pacific state of Ireland was merely superficial. " Though the sur face be tranquil (said he), a volcano is beneath the feet of the Irish Protestants, which may burst into flame when it is least expected. It is the fixed determination of the people of Ireland not to pay tithes, and tithes, take my word for it, they will never pay." He then contrasted the comparative numbers of Milan Catholics and Protestants in various districts, and remarked at the close of his speech, that if the latter were saved from present peril, it would not be the effect of the paltry Tithe Bill upon the table, but of the confidence reposed in the intentions of Ministers, and of the anxiety of the people of Ireland to preserve the ' administration of a Lord Lieutenant who had evinced such an earnest disposition to do equal justice without regard to political or religious distinctions. As to the vol cano beneath 'the feet of the Protestants, it will be recol lected that Sir Robert Peel gave it as one of his reasons for this year conceding corporations to Ireland that they were required, for the permanent preservation of the peace of that country, in which the reigning tranquillity was rather artificial than real. Notwithstanding this declara tion, the Right Hon. Baronet was the man who haggled for what he called a bona fide 101. qualification, and was willing to risk, if not to sacrifice, the peace of the sister kingdom, because he thought fit to insist upon the appli cation of the test of the new Poor-law. Mr. Ward's amendment was negatived by a very large majority, only 46 voting for it and 270 against it. The house subse quently negatived a motion by Sir C. Style, for throw ing out the Tithe Bill, and resolved itself into the Committee upon it. Several amendments proposed by Mr. Shaw were then considered. One of these was postponed, but upon another a division took place, and it was carried by an accidental majority of 23. The effect of it was to make the reduction only of 25 per cent, in stead of 30 per cent. on the conversion of tithe into rent charge. We presume that the matter will be set right again on the Report, and that the Bill will not be allowed to remain more inoperative in point of relief than even Mr. O'Connell supposed it when he spoke earlier in the evening. A good deal of desultory discussion occurred upon minor points, and, after a long struggle and several divisions, it was finally agreed that the Chairman should report pro gress, and ask leave to sit again. —Morning Chronicle. At five o'clock yesterday evening, before the House of Commons resolved itself into Committee on the Irish Tithe Abolition Bill, a motion was made by Mr. Ward, one of the members for Sheffield, the object of which was, that the House should take measures for embodying in the Bill a clause of appropriation—th a t is, a clause for applying the revenues of the Protestant Church to the purposes of the Catholic faith. This gentleman, in the first Parliament under the Reform Act, made a hobby of the principle of appropriation, and was encouraged by the artful Whigs, who saw that they could make play by riding it after him. They therefore cajoled him to get out of the saddle, with many eulogiums on his horsemanship. They worked the hobby for three years, till it became wholly broken winded ; and last night, when they had long turned it off, he got astri.le again, and shuffled through three-quarters of an hour amid the ungrateful inattention, nay, the un civil and somewhat contumelious clatter, of the very Whigs who had once affected to applaud his at tempt. In this state of things it was difficult therefore to hear him with any accuracy, but whenever he was audible, he appeared to be t aking his reveng e by showing up the weaknesses and shabbinesses of his old friends. Ile urged that this House, by its recent refusal to expunge the reso lutions of 18:35 for the appropriation of a surplus in Ire land, had pledged itself tostliae resolutions, er, as be rather inartiticially phrased it,:ha'd identified itself with them. And as to the inrlinatio temporum, which Ministers had assigned as their excuse, he considered it an insufficient, and indeed unintelligible, plea for so great a change in the policy of a Government. Lord Morpeth thought (in which we ven ture ti differ from him) that the course of Government re quired very little explanation. Having abandoned their demands upon the Irish Church, they would not, lie said, pursue their arguments against leer," nor go on with rail ing when they had done with fighting." Their wish was to terminate the excitement and estrangement between Church and laity, Protestant and Catholic. Occupying himself a situation of responsibility, he could not consent to continue such a state of things. It might have been convenient to Ministers to leave the subject as it hail been left at the close of each of the three last sessions ; but they were bound to consider the public good. (Which it is thus admitted that for the last three sessions they had not thought fit to consider.) 'l'hree times they had tried an eppropria:ion clause, and failed ; thrice had they sealed that perilous breach, and thrice they had been repulsed. la the present Parliament it was quite clear that their chance was pot likely to be a better one. They still re tained the same opinions which they had formerly expressed by their speeches and their votes ; but, for the good of Irelan.l, they found themselves obliged to bring in their 13:11 without an appropriation clause. Mr. Hume was for going even further than tl:e !never, and would never Le s ttisfied till the Church sinecures were all abolished. (Nor would we ; but we would carry the superfluity to the ill-paid Clergy by whom the real duties of the Church are done.) Mr. O'Con el would oppose Mr. Ward's mo tion for Mr. Ward's own reasons. The mere price pro posed by that motion—the mere approeriation of a surplus, to induce an acquiescence in this Tithe Bill by the Irish people, was a price which the Irish people would liot take. Some nepreliension, indeed, appeared lurking in the tone of the Government, and, for his own part, "ke never I I' Joinclhia , f; were not knew Irehn 1 in .such danger. Worn; to sati6 the people, collision, he feared, ninull take place. The insurgent. might, indeed. be defeated, hut b/cod and inisciy must .still." (Ties is t he country whose tranquillity has made Lord Melgrave a M irquis.) He had doec what he could to keep the people quiet, to the no small de;riinent of his own popularity ; but the people obeyed a leader no longer—they were meeting in tens and twenti •s cf thousands—going straight to the point—askiiig no allotment of surplus, but demend ing the entire abolition of tithe. Ile could agree to no compromise eow : it would be to delude both Ire- land and the 3iikii3try. Every year the price of peace was higher and higher, lihe that of the &byline books. Three years ago Ireland would have considered Mr. Ward's pro posal a; a concession ; now they would no longer adopt it as a " I vote against the motion," continued Mr. O'Connell, " that I may carry out its principle of appropri ation, not partially but fully. In England and in Scot land the tithe is paid to the Clergy of the people ; in Ire land, to the Clergy of a small part of the people. The / /9 We do not understand how any man possessing common sense, and an average share of honesty, can avoid being heartily disgusted with • the adulation which Ministerial writers pour out before the " fire-new" coronet of the Mar quis of Normanby. This is doubtless Mr. O'Connell's work. He has very good reason to be pleased with his Lord-Lieutena n t of Ireland, and his influence is sufficiently great to affect very forcibly those writers whose gratitude to the Administration consists of a very lively sense of favours to come. But, like most other things that come from the O'Connell source, the outrageou s rant about the merits of the new Lord Normanby is a compound of blarney and of lies. The whole secret of Lord Normanby's government of Ireland lies in this, that he has given himself up utterly to the Romish faction of which O'Connell is,the leader. Other Lords -Lieutenant of a liberal turn, had still some sense of shame which prevented them from en tirely abandoning the constitutional principles of that British Government which they represented. It is probable, too, that their feelings as noblemen and gen tlemen caused them to revolt from any sort of near contact with the coarse vulgarity, now swaggering, and now fawn ing, of the O'Connell set. But the new Lnrd Normanby has not enough of elevated good sense to be capable of the shame of which we speak, and as for the rest, his own mind is of that cast that he cannot distinguish between offensive swagger and manly spirit, nor will his vanity per mit him to see how widely apart are vulgar fawning and the deference of polished courtesy, to a high official functionary. That man must be altogether destitute of sound informa tion, or of respect for truth, who pretends that the political and social state of the kingdom of Ireland has been im proved under the sway of Lord Normanby. The dif ference in the state of things under his government, and the government of other Lords Lieutenant, is merely that the leaders of the populace have been bribed by Court favour, into a partial cessation of those com plaints, and more terrifyin g evidences of discontent, which have been commo n in Ireland. But this does not deserve to be called improvement, for it is in truth gross injustice, and like every other expedient of the kind which has been tried, whether upon a small or upon a large scale, the result will be a worse state of affairs than that which is pretended to have been remedied. Lord Normanhy is not the first Lord Lieutenant of Whig politics that has been sent to Ireland, and the scribes of the present Ministry show indeed a strange sort of respect for the party to which they profess to belong, when they tell the public that Ireland has now for the first time enjoyed anything like g-od Government. It is ridiculou s to suppose that other Chief Governors befor e Lord Normanby did not see that it they chose to throw themselves completely into the hands of the Romanist Radicals that they might acquire a prodigious amount of rabble popularity, while they would avoid all violent hostility, bee?.use the Protestant party, however ill used, are iiicapable of disloyalty and outra g e. This must have been obvious to Lord Wellesley, Lord Anglesey, and others, but they disdained the coarse ex pedient, and shrunk fro:n injustice so monstrous, however great might be the temporary popularity which thereby they wLoour(lidNacolurniraenby ? . In whatt p h ly en consists the merits of th e new scended t o a l owness of stratagem, and t h i a 'a s t ve l n ie h ture a i s l t c o o c nd om e -- mit a grossness of injustiee, which his betters, who are naw receiving ex post facto insults from the pens of their own party, had sufficient pride to disdain, and sufficient principle to avoid. In the public conduct, of the new Lord Normanhy there has been something much worse than meanness, and much more wicked than bestowal of favour upon fawning agitators. The course of his policy —or of that policy of which lie is ostensibly at the head—has been a course of injustice and oppression to the friends of British Go vernment in Ireland. We do not say that the conduct of all the Members of the Protestant party in Ireland has been such as to merit approbation from a wise aryl patriotic Government —neither do we say that it would have been just or prudent or reasonable, to have confined all the favour of Government to the Protestant party, while persons of ability and character, who were not of that party, should be driven by neglect into discontent ; hut CO do say th it a more his° and dastardly policy cannot be ima gined than that of completely turning away the counte nance of Govornrnent from the great body of the able, the respectable, and the loyal people of Ireland of all classes, in order to lavish unmerited promotion upon a crowd of course, unlettered, disreputable men, whose only title to attention has been their furious partisanship, and ,;Bose previous live; had h--en spent in ac t s o f h ost i l i ty to B ritish institutions. Whatever a man of high station and mean ability can do, to turn the warm Irish friends of British Protestant institutions into careless contemplaters or their danger, and to give the bitter enemies of these institutions additional strength for carrying on their warfare—that has the new Lord Normanby done. Hence his promotion in the Peerage !—Morning Post. We understand that, among persons likely to be well informed upon the subject, it is believed that the Parlia mentary Session will not go beyond the close of the present SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS,' Catlitkc§ cWtnlimber the Protestants of the establishment ' W ttare than fi ve m illi ons an d a h a lf ; yet, whc4O•er , would injure or insult us, yon come but t . 4Prr us with your Protestantism-. fir 13"Oti Sictlaii you failed with such instrument§ as 64 ti,,Vord and the gibbet, you will not subdue us teW with simple insult." Mr. Harvey attacked 101 Parties--as well Mr. O'Connell and the Ministers, as the Clergy and the Conservatives; and Sir Robert Inglis, answering him, vindicated his own consistency, and ob served, with respect to the Learned Member's advice, that, according to all experience, the danger was not in op posing, but in following it. The House then divided and swamped Mr. Ward's busy motion by an overwhelming majnrity. After this another attempt was made, of the same nature, though in a different form, by Sir C. Style, who, with great loudness and length, proposed to post pone the Committee till that day three months—in other words, to throw out the Bill which he regarded (and, as fat as Ministerial motives are concerned, he' probably had great reason) to be a mere juggle for the promotion of party purposes. Lord Morpeth, of course, objected to this proposal, and so did Mr. Bcnett, of Wiltshire ; while Lord Dungannon was inclined to support it, not for the mover's reasons, but from a general disapprobation of the Bill. The motion, however, was negatived without a divisicin, and the House —.vent into Committee. It was then proposed by Mr. Shaw to release the sums due to those tithe•owners to whsm Government had made advances during the season, while the collect ion of tithe had been impracticable. Mr. Spring Rice was willing to give some relief—but not to the extent proposed. He would rather accomplish the object by a separate Bill, which it would be desirable that the House should take time for fully considering. Mr. Harvey objected to the remission, the total sum being 640,000/. He wondered that the English landlords did not appose it ; hut he saw plainly that there was no disposition to wards resistance on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; that functionary seemed rather to con sent and say, " We will do it if the House will let us ; if it can be managed in Committee when the reporters are not taking notes, and some of the Members are at dinner, and others at the Queen's Palace, at such a time per haps we can shake the two parties in a sieve, and leave a residue of nothing but a few dirty Radicals." For this accurate description of his friends the Hon. Member was rewarded with a laugh ; and he proceeded to contend that the law ought to be adequate, so long as tithes should be property, te enforce their payment —nay, he be lieved it was adequate : for, if he were rightly informed respecting the success of certain tithe process against Mr. O'Connell, the law had proved too mighty even for that sturdy foe of tithes —even for him, " the master of this house." Here was another home truth, at least as far as the Ministerial majority is concerned ; and it was received by the minority with proportionate mirth. Mr. Sergeant Jackson advocated the remission to the clergy of the debt due from them to the Government. They had suffered deeply and patiently. Rather than sue their parishioners they had sold their property, even to their very books. With respect to the tithe suits against Mr. O'Connell, it had been said that the Learned Gentleman had offered to pay those demands. He had, indeed, but not till within two days of the hearing, when the plaintiffs, the clergymen, had been put to all the costs of the proceeding. After a shrill complaint by Mr. Sheil that the Government of the Whigs seemed inclined to give worse terms to Ireland than the Government of the Conservatives had proposed, Mr. O'Con nell rose to say that he still adhered to his offer of paying the tithes to the clergymen who had sued him ; but if the costs were added, the plaintiffs should sell his bed ere he would submit. (That is, he would visit the clergymen with the penalty of costs for the intolerable offence of de manding what was their own.) The Bill now in Committee would not be final, it would not be accepted by way of compromise ; but, the 640,000/. might as well be given at once, for it would never be got. The subject of the debt from the clergy was then dropped, and Mr. Shaw proposed, that instead of deducting, in the rent-charge to be substi tuted for the present tithe composition, the amount of 30 per cent., 25 per cent., only should be taken away. The incomes of the Irish parochial clergy were no more, on the average than from 2001. to 300/. a•year, and even 25 per cent. was a heavy tax for the benefit they were to derive by the transfer of the liability from the occupier to the landowner. Mr. Lucas preferred a deduction which should vary in different districts. Lord Morpeth objected to the substitution of 25 per cent. for 30, and could not think it the duty of Government to give a bonus now for the delays by which their measure had theretofore been defeated. Several other gentlemen tendered their suggestions ; and Mr. Serjeant Jackson concluded the discussion upon this the most important perhaps of all the clauses, by referring to a petition from the clergy of Elpbin, from which it ap pears that in that diocese the incomes of the parochial clergy are below the average of 1151. per annum. This is the overgrown, bloated, luxurious Church of Ireland.— Times. month: It understood that, in all probability, what has been rather absurdly called a settlement of Irish ques tions will take place—that is, that the Irish Poor-law Bill, the Irish Municipal Bill, and the Irish Tithe Bill, will all become Acts of Parliament within the period we have mentioned. The Irish Poor-law Bill has been already amended in some important particulars by the Lords. The Irish Municipal Bill is likely to receive important altera tions in the same House, increasing the amount of fran chise beyond what it stands at in the Bill as it left the Com mons ; but on coming up to what was proposed by Sir R. Peel. The Irish Tithe Bill, being without the appropriation clause, and on othergrounds not disputed by the Conservative party, is likely, it is said, to pass without difficulty, but not without some considerable noise, in the lower House, from the feeble Mr. Ward, and in the upper from the stre nuous Baron Brougham. Should all this happen we may look for proditzious boasting during the whole of the autumn of what the Whigs have accomplished, and all the Radicals who are looking for a share of those substantial benefits which Whigs have to bestow, will probably join in the praise. On the other hand, the Tories will say that what ever has been settled has been owing to their forbearance, either in one House of Parliament or in the other, and the honester and more discontented Radicals will join in the statement, insisting that a virtual coalition as to measures has taken place between the Whigs and Tories, while the interests of republicanism and freedom from religion have been scandalously overlooked. Supposing the events of the sesson to turn out according to the anticipations which we have mentioned, we think that the friends of honest, intelligent government, and humane salutary laws, will have little reason to be proud of this first session of Queen Victoria's first Parliament. Many will, no doubt, be glad —from mere weariness of the perpetual discus-ion of Irish grievances —that something professing to be a settlement of them has been accomplished ; but they who really attend to public affairs, and take a serious interest in them, un biassed by party predilection or party animosity, will, we fear, find in these measures little evidence of vigorous legis lation, and little promise of permanent tranquillity. In the present state of parties every thing which is done is nothing better than a compromise ; and in political affairs every compromise is but a mere postponement of the difficulty. It is, no doubt, agreeable to the Minister on the one hand, and the leader of an Opposition party on the other, to have mutually made each other give way ; and they may possibly think that, in coming to an arrangement which, under all the circumstances, is satisfactory to themselves, they have brought about a satisfactory adjustment of the question. But it should be remembered that the people outside the walls of Parliament, who have called for or opposed the measures thus said to be adjusted, do not by any means participate in the feelings which have led to the compromise, nor generally under stand the Parliamentary necessities to which their views have been sacrificed. They will insist that this Parliamentary settlement is no satisfactory settlement of the question. They who have called for change will in sist that they have not had what they asked for, and they who have resisted change will complain that they have been injured by the amount of change which has been effected. Thus will the foundation exist for fresh attacks and de fences in Parliament with respect to the very questions which are said to have been arranged, and their bitterness will be aggravated by popular distrust of those who have previously given way upon points respecting which their partisans had believed them firm. With regard to the present aspect of public affairs, and the balanced state of power between the innovating Government, and the Con servative Opposition, it is not too much to say that there is a general feeling of something like hopelessness. The people at large are very far from being satisfied with things as they are, but they see no element of force and activity likely to make an important alteration for the better. The British people naturally look with great jea lousy at the direction of affairs, sensible as they are that this direction is under Irish influence, and in spite of the repeatedly-expressed disapprobation of the majority of British Members in both Houses of Parliament. They long for an opposition which would do justice to the force of British feeling against a state of affairs so unnatural, and to this part of the united kingdom so degrading. They wish for a revival of the old British popular feeling within the Houses of Parliament ; but they wish for it in vain. A frigid and mechanical system of management has taken pos session of those who should be foremost in taking advan tage of the tide of British sentiment. There is less fear of disturbing the principles upon which the Throne and the Church are based, than of clashing with arrangements for the despatch of business. The Opposition appears more desirous of credit for having given aid to the Government in disposing of the business of the session, than for rescuing the country from a Government which endangers the na tional institutions, and degrades the national character. Both Government and Opposition appear to be intent merely on holding their own, while the patriotism and spirit of the country are without an organ by which they make themselves felt. In such a state of things, it will make little difference to the public sentiment whether at the close of the session the Irish questions have been stamped with a nominal settlement, or are openly left as the materials for future Parliamentary struggle.—Morning Herald. A letter on the subject of Imprisonment for Debt has just appeared from the pen of C. Pane, E sq ., to whose opinions, from his position—that of a Commissioner of her Majesty's Court of Bankruptcy—the gravest importance should attach, were not the effect of that position impaired by the introductory Address of the Letter to Sir Robert Peel, as being " that Statrsman of the day from whom the cause of rational, useful, and practical reform has most to hope?! Such an introduction in the present state of pub lic feeling is but little calculated to attract an impartial consideratio n of the writer's opinions ; and on examining the tenour of his observations, the doubts elicited by his dedication are confirmed into a certainty of insincerity, by the dubious character of his arguments, which, like those of his Patron, are elaborately adapted to every possible contingency of circumstances, so as, after a close perusal of the Pamphlet, to leave one in doubt, whether or not he be favourable or op posed to the abolition of that slavish and unjust law, impri sonment for debt. From his statements, however, we may consider him opposed to imprisonment on mesne process, which the Bill now in progress proposes to abrogate ; but he appears to consider that something more stringent than imprisonmeat on the comparatively slow and expensive proces s of execution is necessary to the protection of the creditor. There are in the letter many observations de serving the utmost consideration, and strikingly illustrative of the cruel and oppressive effects of the present law of debtor and creditor. The question is certainly one which should be met on its intrinsic merits. We are as anxious as my parties can be for the protection of the creditor, but we consider the power of imprisonment for debt is as much calculated to encourage an unfair system of traffi c on the part of the creditor as evasion of payment on that of the debtor. Credit given in the expectation of exacting payment through the medium of imprisonment is not a legitimate credit. Abolish. imprisonment for debt, and though credit may be curtailed of its present enormous proportions, it will rest on a more secure basis, and be more calculated to promote the gene ral prosperity. Nor in this case will the fair trader have any cause to complain ; on the contrary. the fact of abo lishing imprisonment for debt will make him more guarded in hie business, and, instead of giving, as at present, al most unlimited credit, he will confine his dealings to those who lie has just and sufficient reason to believe will pay without such coercive appliance. The question is, no doubt, a complicated one, and we arc most anxious that the interests of all parties should receive duo considera tion in its adjustment ; but the principle on which this adjustment should be based, is that of alter abolition V exultationsttheer on attrib utes tiiasttotih, the plenitude freedom. i imprisonment pr. debt, unless wherejiaud or criminal intent t s Ah o , apostrophe ß b r c i c t o is becomes lcensodfob an bound nd( Irish. has been proved. We boast that the slave, on toucl ing our h ade i n t withh aurirl of their liberty, and the (we must coin the word ing qualities of their climate and soil. But in d:erous light does this exultation appear, when factthe e at a la- s made known, that not only the manumitted slave but 1 master himself, or either at the suit of the other,may theb cast into prison, on the oath of any party who may tlink proper to swear a debt against them. This is thebnasted freedom in which an Irish barrister, borrowing from Black stone, by the way, waxed so thrillingly eloquent. Imprison ment for debt implies a system of polity inconsistent th that of a civilized community. If the abolition of imprison ment, unless in the exempted cases, be effected, of what will creditors have to complain ? As we have already stated, credit given solely on the faith of imprisonment for debt ii filseand fraudulent credit,and, as proved by Bail, reports, as injurious to legitimate trade as the most nefarious schemes of the professional s'aindler. Under such eircuinstauces we call for the total abolition of imprisonment for debt, un . less in such cases as those to ishich we have already ad vertel—Morning Advertiser. pehhi; i sn e rintt Mrs. Troilope continues to li e dangerously ill at the hause of her brother, Mr. Milton, in the Fulhain.road. cu his return to y il i s i n n ' i o tn li t ' o a la; whose name The Governor of Cape Coast Castle (nr. George i i\. L c i l e c a a . n) ' l7, is ba gentleman c k •n e t zl ,n o n i : l tn S t a ia tu i r b d : y ri r a e t cei l i; o l i. associated with her land's literature, whe ter we write that name Landon or "L. E. L." Iler writings fr li their grace, sentiment, and feeling, are deservedly popular am ig all classes of readers, mid, not less so are they, by their brilliant t, bold thought, and vivid por traitures of character. No one wli 'has read her last novel, " Ethel! Church:ll," that powerful proo o ier gradually maturing genius, but must be glad to learn that she d not intend to lay aside her pen, but that, on the contrary, she has made arrangements with Mr. Colbur may the publication of such productions as her future opportunities ut i give rise to, in the fervid climes she is visiting. The best wishes of all who can admire genius and appreciate generosity cf character go with ber. THE SUN, LONDON; TUESDAY, JULY 3, 1838: IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, JuLY 2. The SPEAKER took the Cha'r at the usual hour. Mr. CRAWFORD brought bp the Report of the Com mittee on the Middlesex County Courts Bill. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE hoped the Pion. Member would fix some specific day for the further consilmation of the Re port. - Mr. CRAWFORD would fix Friday for that purpose. Captain WOOD gave notice that he would then move that the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the whole House. Mr. T. DUNCONIBE gave notice that he would move that the Bill be committed that day three months. Mr. HALL presented a petition against the Royal Ex change Bill. Mr. GRIMSDITC II presented a petition from the mer chants, bankers, and inhabitants of Macclesfield, regretting the progressive increase of crime, which they attributed to the multiplicat:on of beer houses, and praying that some law might be passed to put an end to the grievance. Mr. ROCHE presented a ptition from Castle Lyons, in Cork. praying for the abolition of tithes. Mr. PALMER presented a petition from the Vicar of Harlow, in Eisex, complaining of the operation of the Com mutation of Tittles Act. Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented a petition from Li verpool on the subject of the disputes which have taken place between the Corporation and Clergy of Liverpool. Within the last few days an adjustment had been come to—both par ties had agreed to certain terms, provided they could be sanc tioned by an Act of Parliament. If the Bill should not pats, the parties would be put to great expense. The petition was ordered to be referred to the Committee on private Bills. ALGIERS. Mr. MACLEAN uislied to ask the Noble Lord opposite a question or two rely ive to the French occupation of Al giers. During the rece t nt debates in the French Chamber of Deputies, the President of the Council had made declarations as to certain communications between the Government of this country and that of France with respect to the occupation of Algiers. He (Mr. Maclean) had looked through the papers on the table of the House of Lords. No such papers were on the table of this House, and he presumed thn Noble Lord would have no objection to their being produced. In these papers there was a decided assurance to England on the part of the French Government that it did not contemplate any occupation. He wished to know whether, since these papers were laid on the table of the House of Lords, there had been any communications of the same kind between the French and English Govern ments ? And if so, whether the Noble Lord had any objection to their production ? Also, if any arrangement had been made between the two Governments, whether the Go vernment of Turkey had been consulted? Lord PALMERSTON read the words which fell from the President of the Council of France as the best answer be could give to the question. It truly stated that within the limits of the old Regency of Algiers the Government of Eng land would not interfere. He certainly would have no objec tion to lay the pipers alluded to before the House. There had been no communication similar to those of 1830 between the two Governments ; these bad been some, but he would not think it expedient to lay them on the table of the House. The question was in a very different position after the con quest of Algiers by France from what it was before the sailing of the expedition. SPAIN. Sir ROBERT PEEL wished to ask the Noble Lord op posite whether he had rightly understood him to say, on a former evening, that with respect to the Spaniards ( Carlists) detained in Portugal, they would be discharged upon their giving an assurance that they would not take any part in the civil contests going on in Spain ? Lord PALMERSTON had stated that an offer had been made by !he Portuguese Government to make an exchange of prisoners, but that had been declined, and he had that morning received a letter from the Ambassador at Madrid stating, that an application had been made to Don Carlos respecting this ex change, but that he would only consent to it on the ground that all the Carlists that had been taken prisoners during the war should be released. MIDDLESEX MAGISTRATES. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to ask the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department, whether he was aware of the practice of the Middlesex Magistrates, of com mitting vagrants to the House of Correction, who were in a state of insanity or in the last stage of sickness. The Visiting Magistrates had made a report, wherein it was stated that six Poles had been sent to the House of Correction, and subjected to solitary confinement from one month to two months, who were decidedly in an insane state. IRISH REGISTRATION OF VOTERS' BILL (N 0.1.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, in reply to Mr. Sergeant Jackson that he would state the intentions of the Government respecting this Bill in a day or two. On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL that the House go into Committee upon the Irish Tithe Bill, Sir ROBERT PEEL said that he perceived it would be impossible for him to get the Controverted Elections' Bill through Parliament in this Session; and although be regarded it as an important measure, he thought that as it could not be passed, he ought to withdraw it until next Session.—( Hear.) Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL had to make a similar announcement respecting the Copyhold and Practice Bills. Sir J. GRA HAM asked what was intended to be done with the Registration of Voters Bill ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL considered the measure of so much importance, that it was desirable to pass it, if possible.—( Hear.) Sir J. GRAHAM was understood to say, that it could not be gone through with at this advanced period of the Session. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was quite certain that some Bills which were in progress, could not be passed dur ing the present session. But he thought that they ought to proceed with all the important Bills, which there was a chance of passing, whilst a sufficient number of Members could be kept in town. He thought that by giving the mornings of two days in the week to Bills and Committees in Bills much pro gress might be made. The Noble Lord then wished to know if the House would object to morning sittings on Tuesdays and Thursdays ?—( No, no.) If that were the case, he feared Bills of a very important character would not pass during this Session. Sir R. PEEL said the Noble Lord's conclusion was rather hastily drawn. He ( Sir R. Peel) did not positively object to the Noble Lord's proposition. In answer to Lord MAHON, Lord J. RUSSELL said the Government Controverted Elections Bill would also be withdrawn. In answer to Sir J. GRAHAM, Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE said he meant to carry through his Bill respecting the commutation of tithes this Session, if possible. IMPRISONMENT FOR D EBT BILL. Mr. HAWES asked if it were intended really to go on with his Bill during the present Session ?—( Hear.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was his earnest desire to move the second reading of the Bill as loon as pos- BtillileoLf Lords s h in gr t e h a e t iat p s j o b r i t e a .; e(, whichA l laugh .) gl i i . pre sent session, would pass this House before its close.—( Hear.) ia ) d been And sent he down from a Lord .1. RUSSELL expressed a similar hope. TITHES (IRELAND) BILL. n e The Order of the Day having been read for going into Committee on the Tithes (Ireland) Bill, Mr. WARD rose to bring before the House the resolution of which he had given notice. He said, that a man who entertained strong feelings on any subject, as he did on this, and had not the courage to express those feelings, had no pretensions to claim a scat in the Legislature : and from the first moment he became aware of the policy which he thought it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to pursue, he intimated to the Noble Lord his fixed determination to take the course which he was now about to pursue ; and he must say that he had too strong a sense of his duty, as a Member of this House, and too great a value for its time, to enter into the discussion of a question which it was not his determination to press to a division. He would now come at once to his resolution, the tendency of which was to induce the House to consider the course upon which it was about to enter —a course which lie conceived was wholly incompatible with any regard to its consistency and cha racter. Why should tisey be called upon to abandon a policy which had been proclaimed to be essential during. every Session since 1835? It was not with a view of gaining any paltry triumph that he brought forward this motion, but it was to show those with whom he now acted the principles on which he and some Hon. Gentlemen had acted in 1835. It was to them more than to gentlemen on the opposite side that he ad dressed his arguments. While he differed from gei.tlemen opposite yet he respected their consistency, for many of them had sacrificed that which they had attained by their honour able ambition, the possession of office, rather than sacrifice their consistency. But for those principles, the Government o f Lord Grey would not have been broken up ; but for these principles, the Government of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite would not have been stormed; and it was on those principles on which the Government of Lord Melbourne stood, in the years 1835 and 1836.—( Hear, hear, hear. ) In 1836 the Noble Secretary for Ireland said that the Church in that part of the Kingdom was is a bloated condition, in which it could only be maintained by blood, and that the good which it was capable of effecting was not worth so high a price —( Hear, hear.) There was not a single con stituency in the kingdom to which, in the election of 1837, the Libi ral candidates did not put forward, as their strongest claim, the superior policy of the present Administration i n respect to Ireland ; and especially in reference t..) the appropriation principle. He might be told that in that election the result was u:,favourable to the principle. It was true the majority was diminished ; but still there was a majority is favour of the resolution of 1835; and it ought nut to be abandoned —( Hear.) Oa the motion of the Hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon, brought forward in the present Session, to rescind the resolution, a clear majority of the House had recorded its opinion in favour of the resolution. Why should it now be departed from ?—( Hear, hear.) He ( Mr. Ward) heard his Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland talk on that occasion of " Tory snares," and caution Hon. Members from falling into them. But the Noble Lord had since fallen into a Tory snare' on the Municipal Bill, and he was not yet disengaged from it.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh ) He ( Mr. Ward) was to ll t h at h e was acting un fairly in bringing this motion forward. How could he (Mr. Ward) with propriety after calling the Irish Church a " na tional lie"—after characterizing it as national only in the nationality of its injustice—how could he at the beck of any Government vote for a measure merely giving that Church a new title ? How could lie vote fur any measure not honestly and sincerely carrying out the appropriation resolutions ?—(llear, hear, hear.) On what plea were these resolutions to be abandoned ? The Noble Lord ( Russell) had formerly talked of the inclinatio ieeiPoierli—would the Noble Lord transtitet6t fur the benefit of the country Hear, and a laugh ) A celebrates( illedran writer (Mr. Senior) had stated that there were three grounds for Statesmen's changing their opinirens-- - -fiist, a great intervening change in public opinion—secetidi,, terror —or thirdly, interest. Nose, was it quite fa . r, for !lee present Government to abandon the pi s en which they exnell d the Right honourable 13arot.et (Set Robert ['eel) from power, and adopt t'.e Jaeineples of that Right lion. Baronet ?—( fleas.) Look to the condition of Ireland : was the Church there more popular ?—( Hear.) Meetings had been heilkin various parts of Ireland (a great number of which the Wm. Member here enumeaated) at which resolutions had been come to corelemeatery of the tithe system, and expressive of their opnion that tithes could never again be collected. He would now ask could the House put down these feelings which had been expressed by such immense multitudes? Could they put down agitation in which so many of the men of property in Ireland took part ?—( Hear ) Could they put down agitation, which was not confined is the C itholies a'one, but in which ti e gentry were found coinciding with the humbler classes ? It was impossible. There wee no power which could control these feelings. Before they went into Committee on this Bill, which did nothing to satisfy the Catholics of Ireland, ho entreated the House to reflect deeply on what they were about to do. Earl Grey had said that in the present state of opinioti existing in the country, it was impossible to carry this appropri ttion clause ; but considering the con duct of that Noble Lord when he had such a noble ma jority in that House—considering his conduct upon the Coercion Bill, a Bill which he never thought of without feel ings of shame and humiliation for the course his ignorance of the state of Ireland induced him to take—( Hoar, hear)-- considering all these things he could not consider Lord Grey as any authcrity on Irish affairs.—( Hear.) He endeavoured, as shortly as he could, to state his views to the House on thissubject. He knew how much the subject had been exhausted, but he had thought it to be his duty to point out to the House the danger of going into Committee upon any Irish Tithe Bill that did not contain in it the principle of appropria tion. Looking at the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, he (Mr. Ward) thought the Government should give the people of that country a pledge of the sincerity of their intentions, by supporting the instruction he now had to move, the principle of which was, that the Irish Church Establish ment could only be maintained by giving the Catholic inhabi tants an interest in its continuance.—( Cheers.) Mr. HAWES seconded the motion. Lord MORPETII said, that although the lion. Member for Sheffield had, with his usual ability, covered a consider. able space in his address to the House, and introduced a great variety of topics and arguments against the course which the Government intended to pursue on the present occasion, it required but little explanation. He should not, therefore, follow the Hon. Gentleman through any of his premises or deductions, as they were chiefly the same which he had him self urged upon the House on former occasions. He did not wish to press the case further now than was necessary, or to follow the lion. Gentleman through all the abuses of the Irish Church. He had never shrunk from describing those abuses and supporting, every measure calculated for their removal, even to the principle of appropriation ; but he did not mean to enforce that principle now. He did not wish to carry on a war of words when they had done fighting. The Government had shown no inconsistency in bringing for ward the present Bill. They bad carried the resolution of 1835, and they still refused to rescind that resolution ; but they thought the period had arrived when it was expedient to terminate, or at least to take the best step they could towards terminating the constant agitation, the collision, and the liti gation that existed in Ireland between the clergy and the laity —the risks of fray and bloodshed between Protestants and Catholics resulting from the collection of tithes. Would the Hon. Gentleman wish to continue for four years longer to risk a question bearing so directly on the peace and prosperity of the people of that country ? For himself, he was not pre pared to take the responsibility of keeping Ireland for four years longer in so deplorable a state. The question for the House and for Parliament to consider was, whether or not it would be expedient to leave that country another year in such a state of suspense on this subject as must embitter and exas perate the feelinge of the people. Tho Hon. Member for Shef deld had said that they waited for the expression of public opi nion? But, by adopting the present Bill, might not they still wait, and wait ,in repose, for the expression of that opinion. The Government had struggled hard for the appropriation principle, but they had been three times repulsed. He was stating the fact. Three times they had battled for and carried it, and three times had they been defeated. Nor did he think they had one whit a better chance of success in the present year. For this reason it was that no appropriation principle was introduced into the present Bill. They judged it best for the interests of the country, and especially for the kingdom of Ireland, which was mainly concerned, not to introduce the appropriation clause on the present occasion. —(Hear.) The Government, therefore, felt themselves called upon to resist the resolution of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, because as an abstract principle that resolution was already on the journals of the House, and they had refused to rescind that resolution. This was ono reason for his opposition to the present resolution; and his second reason was that he thought it would be impossible to carry any Bill embracing that reso lution. He hoped that the Bill which the Government had introduced would be beneficial to Ireland, and would tend to put a stop to the present deplorable state of that country. For the reasons he had submitted to the House he should give to the resolution proposed by the Hon. Member for Sheffield a reluctant but decided negative. Mr. HUME said that the situation in which the present resolution placed himself and others was extremely unpala table.—( A laugh.) He had never flinched from supporting the principle of appropriation; but as the Government were now anxious to remove the causes of discontent in Ireland by the Bill they had introduced, he should give them his support in their attempt at conciliation. He feared, however, that the process of conciliation had been delayed too long, and that the present Bill would not have the effect which was anticipated from it. Ireland would not be satisfied with so paltry a measure. The Bill ought to have gone much further ; all sinecures ought to have been abolished. Until this and other measures were carried out it was impossible to expect that Ireland would be satisfied. Less might have done to conciliate twenty years ago, but not now ; and he for one, if he were an Irishman, never would be satisfied without the total annihilation of tithes and the correc tion of all other Church abuses in that country. No temporary measure like the present Bill could succeed ; and unless the Church Establishment in Ireland was reduced to the proper wants of the Protestant population of the country, and the surplus allotted to the general wants of the people, it could not be expected that peace should ever be established there. Mr. O'CONNELL said that no man ought to feel pain at the performance of a public duty, and therefore he felt no pain on the present occasion. He would warn the House as to the course they were pursuing towards Ireland. He would oppose the resolutions of the Hon. Member for Sheffield fxsr the very reason that the Hon. Member had supported them. Ile was quite sure the House was not aware of the real state of Ireland any more than the Hon. Member for Sheffield. The Noble Lord who had just spoken seemed to imply that he thoaght there was mote peril in the pre sent condition of Ireland than was avowed. For his own part, he declared that since he first commenced his political life he never knew that country in so dangerous a state as it was at present, lie had often known periods when he thought a collision of arms was inevitable, but it had alwat s been prevented by the interference of parsons in whom the people had confidence. The time, however, was now come when, if something more was not done, every effort to restrain the fulness of the people would be in vain. He had gained no popularity either in this country or in Irela'td by the agitation he had kept up, but it was that very agitation that bad re strained the peepie from more violent measures. He saw the volcano on which they stood, and he viewed agitation as the best means of preventing its vomiting. Lord Norrnanhy and the course_of policy he had pursued had done much to allay irritation in the public mind ; but still their meetings were held, at many of which 100,000 men were assembled. They had no leaders, no ad , isers, but met from their own simultaneous impulse in countless numbers to declare their de termination not to accept this paltry measure, but to insist on the total abolition of titheo The people of Ire land were de termine I not to pay tithes, and they would not pay thew. Wes the House, then, prepared to coetieue a system that must result in blood ? Twenty meetings of the sort he had described had taken place within six weeks, and he under.stood seven more were to be held within the nest ten days. Tithes must be either ab o li s h e d a l toget h er in Leland or the surplus appropriated to the general purpose of educating the p, , ople. lie hal offeretl a coatpronthe, but that compromise would not do now. If three years ago the appropriation principle had been adopted, the question of abolishing tithes might have been thrown back fifty years, but the longer it was postponed the more difficult it would be to bring the question to any sa tisfactory adjustment. The present Bill did certainly contain the appropriation principle, for it went to appropriate thirty per cent. of the property of the Church to the landlords. The resolutions that had been passed by the House provided for the spiritual wants of the Protestant people of Ireland, and yet they Were treated as a horrible invasion of the Pro testant Church. He need scarcely say, that, although he should vote against the resolutions of the Hun. Member for Sheffield, he was still in favour of the appropriation prin ciple. His wish was that the Church property should be handed over to the Woods and Forests, and that the Pro testant Clergy should be provided for out of the Consolidated Fund. In England the ecclesiastical revenue went to sup port the Church to which the great majority of the people belonged. In Scotland the same p r i nc i p l e preva il e d ; b ut i n Ireland precisely the Opposite principle pretailed—for there the revenues of the Church were applied to the uses of the Church with which the great mass of the peeple had no con neetime If they were to !owe a union surely it ought to be on equal terms. In the diocese of Armagh, which was the most Protestant district in Ireland, there was evee there a surplus of 700 Catholics over the Protestant population, and in all Ireland there was a surplus of Catholics over Protestants of 5,500,000. The House ought not to forget that the first act of the English Reformed Parliament towards Ireland was to sus; end the Constitution in that country, and pass a Bill of outlawry against her. They had tried to put down Ireland by injury and insult, which did not succeed, and now they were trying to put her down with what they called Pro testantism. They had tried the sword and the gibbet, and now they were trying insult. This Bill would not quiet the people, but the contrary, for it would create dissension be tween the landlord and tenant. The Hon. and Learned Member concluded by observing that this Bill would not give that security to the Established Church %shied) its edvecates calculated upon. however, had warned the House with regard to the present state of Ireland, and he should sit down, contenting himself with having told the House that if they escaped from the danger which threatened them from Ireland, it vs: uld only be eftribetable to the circumstance that the people of that country twee not desirous of throwing impecli. ritew, in the way of the present Government there.—( Hear, and cries of ‘‘ D:vide ") Mr. HA R VEY said that, notwithstanding it was yet 'slit an earls hour of the evening, he was not surprised that Hon.. :llsstesere were so caster for the division, as this was not a sub ject that e mild hear discussion--( Hear)—however deserving it was of a far greater share of the attention of the House t han it s!ood any chance of receiving.—( Hear.) Not withstand_ log b that on the surface there appeared something of a well- underetood di s cord— ( Hear, hear, and a laugh)—it was: rot to be doubted for a moment that there was far more in the p Horse resent o n q s u i d e question than operi i e n d . n_ta e which ar.) agitatedthat Gcntlemerx had spoken, and on various occasions, on subjects oe which , their observations had been little else than a compendium off past discussions, thus keeping up a mere memorial of bygone pretensions, great because long, and profound because twin telligible.—( Hear, and laughter. ) subject could possibt, be of greater moment than the one then before the House-- and it he should have the good fortune to be able to engager the attention of the House for a few moments, he had no doubt it would be mainly attributable to that courtesy which was too frequently conceded to a speaker—the privilege of speaking without giving him, in addition, any portion of support.—(A laugh. ) It was highly gratifying to him to show that in pro portion as reflection succeeded inquiry, in the same proportion would soundness of opinion be justified by tar - rm.—Cl - leer, hear)—and as he hod three years ago trespassed on the pa tience of the House on this same qnestion, and was titers blamed for not sus porting a eroposition which the Hon. anti Learned Member for Dublin himself had that night opposed, it was Same satisfaction to him—a satisfaction not the less va luable because exclusive—to see, after all his predictions, his sentiments treated ns they were. When Hon. Gentlemen spoke of the people of Ireland as being of an inflammable tem perament, and liable to discord, and when they were told by the [lonourable and Learned Gentleman that in Ireland the tranquility which appeared to prevail was all false, and that they acre treading upon a volcano, of which they might every moment expect to Lear the eruption break forth in tones s imething like the se which they had heard two or the days ego in the Park—(Lnughter)—what did it all amount to ? ( Hear.) What was tine present measure ? Not a word was now said against the principle of appropriation even by Hon, Gentlemen on the other side of the House--(Hear)—and yet they would now see those lights of the Church, who were in the habit of speaking of the millions that were starving with the want of spirituarassistance, ready to subscribe, in a quiet and paternal spirit—(Laughter)—to an appropriation of 30/. or 251. pc rcent. of the income of the Clergy.—( Hear, hear.) They were told that the spirit of Popery was stalking abroad, and yet at the same time, those very Gentlemen who made this assertion were prepared to come forward and sanctify a proposition by which they took away 301. per cent, from the spiritual wants of a country town, as they themselves maintained, by this destructive and soul-destroying principle of Popery.—( Hear, and a laugh.) Where were the great lights of the'r Universities ?—( Hear, hear.) He asked them why they did not step in and put a stop to such an unhallowed proceeding ?—( Laughter.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin told them that they must ultimately have recourse to the Consolidated Fund.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he Mr. Harvey could scarcely conceive anything more gratifying to the Hon. and Learned Member than that—(Hear)—but were they prepared to turn that quiet and serene assembly—(A laugh)—into an arena for the purpose of deciding whether their money should be conceded to support Popery ?--(Hear, hear.) He, as a Protestant—( Laughter)—protested against this, and he was ashamed to see that Hon. Gentlemen oppo site, who were on all occasions such great sticklers for Pro testantism, should be so quiet upon the subject at the present moment.—( A laugh.) Whence arose this ? Why, it only showed that they were ready to sacrifice anything so soon as they found that anything in which their earthly advantage wits concerned was at stake.—( Hear, hear.) The question was, had the Irish Church too much, or had she not? If she had, then why, let him ask, had the landlords of Ireland been placed in a better position than those of England?—(Hear, hear.) How could they think of dividing the relative position of the two countries ? If they had a lack of means to support the English Church why not bring the surplus of the Irish Church, and apply it in aid of its starving fellow here?—(Hear.) Why let the starving Protestants of this country any longer com plain of their condition ? But this was not the ground which Honourable Gentlemen took, and he would therefore ask them if the resources of the Church in Ireland were too great, or whether they were, on the other hand, inadequate to its wants? If they were too great, then either let them bring them over to this country, or apply them to the other wants of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) There were many purposes to which they could apply them. Could they not use them as a means of softening and ameliorating the condition of the poor? Could they not encourage and give a stimulus topublic industry, and, by their means, attempt to render the country more happy than it was at present ? If they were too great, why not apply them in some such manner ?—(Heirs) But could any pro position be more heartless, cold, and discouraging than that which went to say that there was no other way of pacifying Ireland than by pilfering the funds of the Irish Church, and appropriating them in a manner which was, in fact, doing no less than applying them to their own gain ?—( Hear, hear.) In the present general heydey of the public mind the effects of such a mischievous policy might not possibly, be visible ; but a few short years longer and they vveuld be fatally evident.—( Hear, hear.) The people of England would not forget that Honourable Gentlemen opposite had already received nearly 700,000/. to meet the exigencies of the clergy__( Hear, hear)—a sum which was first proposed as a loan, next changed by a vote of that House from a loan to a gift ; and now, what of those 700,000/. had been repaid? —(Hear, hear.) Not 7,000/.—( Hear, hear.) Why, this was nearly two years' purchase—( Hear, hear)--and it would be far better to pay a sum of money at once, and buy up the whole tithe of Ireland, than to be constantly subject to these never-ending complaints of Irish grievances.—( Hear.) The lion. and Learned Member for Dublin had told them that this Bill would not lead to the settlement of the question— ( Hear)—and yet they had heard a sort of whisper that a great and hallowed object was to be gained by it. and that all were willing to pass it as a service to the country. But the Hon. and Learued Gentleman told them that this would all tura out to be a delusion—( Hear)—and, therefore, if there was in that House any Hon. Gentleman whose mild and gentle conscience led him to think that he wou'd, by voting for this Bill purchase the peace of Ireland, he had the accre dited organ of that country asserting that night in his place that such would not be the case.—( Hear.) It would be far better than this to leave tithes as they were. He had been de rided when he asked if the law was not strong enough to se cure the collection of ,tithes, and was told that it was impos sible that that collection could be effected. He at that time believed all this to be fancy ; and, what was more, he now be lieved it was all fraud.—( Hear.) Why not, then, stand by the law ?—( Hear.) Were they prepared to sacrifice their own Church ? When many of the poor curates of Ireland went from parish to parish in the most inclement weather, in the discharge of their duty, passing the streams and bogs of that most boggy country—( A laugh)—for the small pittance of some fifty or sixty pounds a year, how could Hon. Gentlemen • ,polite—the great lights of th eChurch—stand by aid see the shivering memorials of Christianity—(Gre a t laughter).— plodding on through those boggy regions as they did?—(A laugh.) Was there any humble Rector in that country_ great in service but little in recompense—( A laugh)--that would thank them for giving him 70/ a year instead of 100/. ? —( Hear.) When they got this portion of his income from him, they turned round upon him when he complairel and requested him to be quiet as they would charge it on the Cen sr)lidated Fund.—( Hear, hear.) But when they once recog nised the principle that the Protestant religion should be suppor'cd cut of the Consolidated Fund, then whatever the Protestant Church might require must be sought fur out of that same fund. Gentlemen on both sides of the House would be glad to fix any church on the Consolidated Fund when they thought that its resources were insufficient fur its object. But this ought to be understood by Hon. Gentle men who were going to vote on this question. With refe reree to the mere party oat this question he would say nothing. There was no: much choice or ellFcrecce between the Right lion. Baronet the Men bcr for Tainworth and the Noble Lord (John Rus=ell) in the matter ; but he was at a loss to Issose how the Riglst lion. Gr rifleman could sit quietly by and consent to the principle ef this Bill after all he had said as to the security of the Establi,licd Church is ut.incetion with these q og i hup e nt s ,fi t si t bsi. to: n e,: s re, . :? — a cre soli tied, t ty titoostivie,fto he iuiirrrna. Hanes), e ‘ e b m e en a on if net killed, unded ty to b hn a o t bat tle, th Irlt• that politicalar e i c f n t d , he was willin g to congratulate then] ble the Hear, and laughter) —hut ha principle of thenses s r f c c i rn i e(cYlacnos'ell,d give tl:e go-by to fifty t!.ope mat he r consequences educational t p, veer.) purposes --(A b r ep oci%oleanss_s consider: fifty d e i.atiog e)y_ae argument hencem stillc nt lt he to e particularlyr b e e n . de v oted eri o e sixty pounds a protested agai was that whi c h ma i nta i ned that this measure give traequillity to I eland —( Hear, from the Radicals) --atid he was pleased to hear that argument contradicted, as he considered th a t there is as no Ea,' e too large to maksinorder to secure s o d es i rable as object ; but he saw a motiv e f or hosti lity to thi s Bill , and o e which, though an ungenerous one, would no count be meete u'e of. The landlord would stir up his tenantry to to theirres st i t ,o h o c e payment s oL w t , i () t u h l i ae, ao - 31 1 ): nd gr t o o u i n l d i that it the itr convenieeces at present existing . ds of Ireland making further att:rernpts to serve I • dlor let it not go forth to the world that ths)IIII17.---( to the loroly etspi(illt of ti i ', ( t hr g r l e e': ' ber. added ;hat of the th .ic own interests at the expense of the cc [louse in thus trueklin e quire] ; bat till; scheme cont,in'se teoseaL;-,e)ll..;.,()sfieteinr),_,-end he, for the country. lie ) ' was thus doing a service to e. re t o h n e ld g be male, in order to secure the er ' l . on s Ito ceeeession hi l e o a o r. grea l t . t u o irt ivan!ages Ireland re: Divide.") , . Sir ROBERT INGLIS _„ l ,,, d e t.___t o, ( s ( .. ;, h h.eheersaisn l : si i : ci ' l l s rli t en ' s e lor b 7 eliesed to be dishonest in purpose, r u e o : t te :, e d i u s s delusion support observations) was undeesteee'eseeLfiede:'"u" be futile in re cries of " arid was n ( ca " - h 1; i o n n au ri d s t i li n l g e I t '' ll 2 r s ou a g ss h a o l u le t d al " l ' l l a t i li s te fi :e i n • r IT use, atenc i kd, ot, 1 51 .' himself up that as a th p e e rifieoerti Membernd e. I ot . ( sir noiks.r , t ifin.,e)un lung his taunts ,gait st both sides o caled oat theai to Some of them a b rticularly against' li:m . list) and those who thought with him, and state how it was that they could support the principle of this Bill. With reference to the questios of 'l'P r( 'P r iati(ni, he concurred with the Honourable and Learned M em b er for Dublin, that there was a concession of t' a principle (.f apprepsiaion, even in the 9 5/. or 30/. per cent. which this Bill deducted from the income of the Clergy.--' ( [lee r , hear.) But he (S:r IL Inglis) had never been on. who had advoc ated the principle of app.opriation in any form whatever.—( Hear, hear.) Ile agreed with the Hon. Membet for Southwark that the law ought not to be resisted with im' 1111_ 1 the ai