The Sun. — London, England, 1818-03-12 00:00:00

Commission tit 'VOA, in tile year 1 - 812. le spent 0n to contend, that none of the other witnesses Ivho had been 'the cause dithe consictiOes were afterwards in the least personal &meet. ; and as circemstances could not have varied since 1 . 812, be argued that it was perfectly easy t protect the Persons attempted to be screened by this Bill, with out any such measure. He then instanced another case since, where 100 witnestea had sworn against the lives of the prisoners, and afterwards went to th eir h omes w i thout the least molestation. At Derby, also, there were witnesses to the amount wiof some hundreds, of whom 30 or 40 were exa- ned, a n d no danger had resulted to them. It as in vain then to say, that because an itnagin .arY danger was in contemplation, that a Bill ought to be passed, setting aside all laws, and holding out indemnity to all descriptions of per. sons. It then rested nu the Gentlemen opposite to slim what made it now, for the first time, itn- Possible for honest men, who had only discharged their duty, to produce their names, without clan er to their lives ? Much stress had beet) laid on the question, why what was asserted to be known 111 the conduct of Oliv er a t the opeeingot the last "S ession had been kept back ? He would give an a nsWer to this that would set the matter at rest. Zit Was only within the last three or four weeks it be came safe for people to tell the se sto jiet"• Until wi t hi n t hi s t i me, t h e H a b eas Corpus 1 was suspended, a n d p ersons w h o h a d pre -utile(' '0 speak eta s uc h a su bj ect m i g h t h ave b een tt!inneitted to prison for an indefinite length o f ; while those who made themselves the cue of Mr. Ol iver , were exact l y t h ose persons sons were apprehended. Ilrbet did it signify whe ther it wa s on Oliver's oath or not, as long as it Iv its known that he was in close cominuoication With esty'e j hislt a Government, and a s o rt o f Fa o lia r In the Offi ce of t h e Right lieu. Gentleman 1 7Posite ? I t should be recollected that till the last L e Port it was not known but what it was Oliver's ~,2 1ag ie oath that had been- th e cause o f a ll t h e corn- I'V rn euts that h a d t a k en pl ace f rom t h e country. 1 . 1 Y6 Y, then, were the people to put themselves in ti tnation of being ruined and destroyed by this csereant's breath passing over them, and polka :l4,l fu r ea r . o f th e Noble Secretary of State ? This , 43 110 imaginary case, but one that had already `e'irr in fact. It was the case of Scholes, ecaC,.. sv llell hail already come before the House. He p „ s exactly in the same situation, and had suffer- IT becau se lie bad threatened t o ex p ose Oli ver. 17. this h e was arreste d, i mpr i soned, and irre t'levahlv ruined in health and circumstances, as filiea red by most respectable tes t i mony ; an d a ll ti ee 'nise he was too indignant to exercise precau );:`'n towards Oliver, and even p resume d to threaten I,! a t•ln 48 hours afterwards he was taken from ; i t hom e , and' throw n i nto a pr i son. W as th i s r'i'ffling to such then as might k n ow t h e p ast t h at p 6 ;leer took at the Horse Guards ? The honest, i 9 ottgl i humble imbvidual s , w h o cou ld h ave g i ven stvairetd ' l4 inform a ti on , knew that the f a t e o f S c h o l es them, if they had done so. ResPectiiig X ti r e Peti tions, he would first allude to that of ; he was certainly a disreputable person, but Me - St t -.a.ernents persons condemned to die were e tedited hy rec. Noble Lord against Ward ; yet if ieYIN,le such a i!eelarations with a hope of par !)11, how much less right had we to refuse to be 11eve the dying declaration of others, at the (iso late; of execution, whets they knew they would themselves nothin g by their asseverations. ;vbut they were 1 10: to b e b e li eve d , b ecause they et e convicted t ra i tors, though their declare il4ls tra ce d to Oli ter the plats that had caus e d declare -1 to stiffer death. The Petitions, there fare -, ought not to be all centhumed as nowt 'etitie• • l unworthy of credit. He there atet ant the wi s h e d f or a C ommittee to enquire into ..1) truth of them, though au Honourable Mein er l '4 call e d on t h e H ouse, in the name of truth and e l „ ti ,es to withhold all such inquiries, by which (,:ee alone the truth cold be come at It was o persons, and not h e , ho stigm a ti se d a ll isi s tll , t itittt es of that House. We had got to the `jhtsaying, t h at any man who was unfortunate, iki l , "l. Catlie a petitioner to t h at H ouse , must b e deaf a i a 'Postor ; t h ere f ore though they were boundeil wilbeg ear to petiti on s, th e y turne d a ear to them, crying out, pherisaically, we are tl qr , t4 P'esen ta ti ves o f t h e P eople; we open our 14' to all petitions and complaints; but we shall is ild tt t hem will the assertion, that Wert! was a fdl t lllll n. and t h ere f ore your pet i t i ons must be t4 t e sod shall not be listened to. This was not hatul'taY to sh ew t h at t h e H ouse w illi ng l y stood he taq.,ll t he Memb ers an d their Constituents, to lean ih l " Power, an d p rove t h emse l ves t h e protectors 'tee': People. Hie Hon. Friend (Mr. Lambe) tket'ehied th a t se di t i on an d di sa ff ect i on was ever ;tae, ' , 7 , whatever might be the prosperity of the ~et ( t it ,.Y. He had s a id it ex i ste d inall the mantt ,7enlag districts. But what would the Hon. 1 4 1 a Neri %vim represent th e mtt anufecturing con liis 4 Y to this sweeping charge against them ? ; l iti „ v as a most foul and wanton charge against n tanufacturers, who were represented as a e, tt len in whom no Government could con to46 Iti ld th at t h ere was a treasonable spirit not N ill' n neti to the men but th e pl aces . S o t h ese two f 4 ; 4 of subj ec t s were always to b e an o bj ect Je a j ov t e , .sy to Government, who are t o cons id er aa te t t regards th e i r all eg i ance , as rotten at t h e , 41 ,4 i T he Hon. Gentleman's speech proved too ,Net Cl. it proved that we bad outlived the good , n ( tt; ' 1 " our loyalty, and instead of the Indeumity "e ( )tight to p ropose the continuance of th e fl eet Act. He implores! the House to re tliet before they voted, to what kind of persons } t or t !, w ere tinkling out protection. It was to in ti4l;el's and spies, who were even loaded with his 4ri i „,' Friend' s c o ntempt . H e t h en entered into IteiTiblorate defence of th e o pi n i ons of Mr. Pon fere'rlYr with whom his mends had only one dif loQ, J e e, whi c h was on t h e R eport. He was too eon t d to destroy, by his Vole, the liberties of his ih e ri , t rY; because h e k new t h at the more stormy ley mine were, the more i t behoved us to stick i m t ne Constitution. But a plot was in demand, g, ""t was fo un d, aml Minist ers cont i nued in of . f t , i 'r at the.e x p ense o f our lib erties. It the House I,, t r its'ed the unconstitutional tootle of rushing ii!'d() any measure, on the war-whoop of alarm, :g if t h ey were to rhos plume themselves on do- Vthei r d uty to their coustittients, they would 't alt fo e r an avowal that the Constit ut i on was only fair weather, and that Englishmen could . . only hold their tights and liberties at th e pleasUre of Ministers. Mr. LAMae said th - ere bad been one - misrepre- SentatiOn of his Learned and Hon. Friend, so to tally unfounded and so Tout, that it was impossi ble he could sutfer it to pass. tie had said, that he (Mr. L.) had made a coarge of foul disloyalty against two millions of people. He was sure be had not meant to say any such thing, and he thought it was impossible the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could have so expressed himself, if he had listened to him fairly and candidly. He had said that a certain number of agitators still exist ed in the manufacturing districts ; but he be lieved with the Reports, that these two millions of persons who resided ih them were sound and ioyally disposed. Mr. CANNING said, that if he were to agree to the doctrine laid down, that the interference of Ministers had been utterly unnecessary, he might abstain from troubling the House. But if at this late period of the debate there were to be any indisposition on the part of Ministers to take part in it, it might be imputed to them that they shrunk from the question. It had been admitted that the attacking party should take the widest possible range, and call in all their auxiliaries to their aid ; but those who were on their defence were to he compelled to stick to the point. But how could any man argue on the Indemnity Bill, without reference to the measures on which it was founded ? He would not say that the Indemnity Bill was the necessary cause of the Sus pension of the Habeas Corpus Act, though of all men the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last was the last person who ought to avail himself of this point ; for that Hon. and Learned Gentle man having last year been defeated in two oppor tunities of preventiog the Suspension, consoled himself on the prospective opposition he should make to the Bill of Indemnity. In his mind, therefore, it was connected with the Suspen sion of the Habeas Corpus Act. The neces sity, however, of a Bill of Indemnity grew out of the circumstances of the country, in which ne cessity the Suspension Act originated. This state of the country rendered it necessary for those who acted tinder the Government, if they meant to do their duty, to outstrip the limits of the law. The same state of things that produced this necessity, induced the Howse to make a temporary sacrifice of that portion of our liber ties, and out of these circumstances had grown the necessity of indemnify them for the acts , hey had committed, and of which they could not make a full justification, without an exposure of the evi dence that had been laid !rehire them ; that was, indemnify them for having committed acts beyond the law, and to dispense with the neces sity of their justifying acts in themselves legal, but legally not provable, except by evidence that could not be disclosed. It was therefore incorrect to say, that the Indemnity Bill w'ss a consequence of the Suspensoin of the Habeas Corpus Act. 1 lie Right Hoo,Gent. proceeded to argue that the House would have been unjust if they had nut risky!) into their contentplatiou the probability of a Bill of Indemnity being required ; oth , rwise Ministers would have been placed in a situation of doing acts for which they could not produce a perfect defence. The questiou now was, whether a Bill of Indemnity from the Lords sho tld be accepted ; and he would agree that it a case was not made out for it, the reason mast be, the abuse of the powers confided to them, aid which would be a just ground for refusing it. It those alto (Tiros ed the measure would look fairly at the qtetstion, they most see, that if the existing Jews had been adequate to check the disturbances of the country, it was not now, but last year, that they should have refused to grant the Suspension Act, and then the present Bill would not have been re quired. The very nature of the measure was to enable Government to detain specifically any sus pected persons, without bringing them to trial.— (Hear, hear!)—HonourableGentlemen had denied the force of precedents; and he was tar from say ing that there existed a precedent corresponding in all its parts with that which Parliament had sanctioned. But if they looked backward, and saw the seeds of such a measure, they had a right to infer the necessity of adapting them to any future exigency. They must agree that the first year of King William was as whiggish a year as could be found in our history; and in that year a message came down to the House, stating reports of private meetings for the purpose of assisting King James, and adding, that his Majesty had caused persons to be appre hended and confined, but was unwilling to detain them, in case he should do any thing contrary to the law. This pointed directly to the case. The Whigs of 1688 sanctioned the acts committed by the Whig King ; and on these grounds, if Ministers had abused the powers which this precedent furnished them with, tar be it from him to say they ought not to be called to account. Now, as to the petitions, it was considered by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that they had not examined them specifically, and he held this out as a proof of the disregard of Parliament for the rights of the people. But let any man look back to these petitions, and examine how far they were borne out by facts. Was every man who had been let loose to be allowed to come to (lie bar and say he had been most cruelly treated, and was the most innocent of mankind, and that his merits alone had [whited him our for persecu tion ? There were petitions of . every class, and many which imputed all that had passed to Oliver. He must give the Gentlemen opposite credit for lately deploring the situation of that wicked insti gator of murder, Ward, though they now found, it convenient to give him up.—(Hear, hear !) ['or this man the tears and commiseration of that House had beets invoked, till it was hinted that their compassion was solicitec for an assassin and instigatoran of murder. Next the revered Ogden was held up, for all the sympathy that silver-haired age and deep infirmity were entitled to (laughter); arid great st ress was laid on that description ofshock tug operation by which his bowels were extracted.— (Laughter.)—Bat what was the plain story? Why, f hat he had laboured wider this disease for many years, and be thought proper to take the advmu age or being cured gratis, while lie expressed the great t!elight that the operaion afforded (Loud bursts of laughter.)--'Phis might be a very proper case for the consideration of the Rupture Society,' but he . cdnld not see tylict ParliaMent to do with it, 13 it the Gentlemen opposite h at 'thoughtit necessary to bolster up .Ward's cast: with this gratuitous case of !forgery, and then 1111.6 wing in a 'cart-load of otherPetit ions, assert e d toi lt House bad not.exaMitied enough. Why, it tv,,, only becanSe , they, ' Were c onv i nce d o f t h e gross fraud and del usion had been attempted to be practised on theth, and if they had turned room, to the examination, they would have lived to re pent the day; and would no: only .have lia , r rite consolation of being pitied', but he aggravation being laughed at for fools !-':- . (Laughter.)—Ther e was another case, which was intended to connect Government with the spies. A man natural Dewhurst was seen in a gig of Sir J. l)vng. He would admit that the assertion was reiract . e.d afterwards; hilt 00 matter. Only give the Gen tlemen Opposite sufficient time, ,and they would retract all the rest that they had Made.—(Loud laughter.)—Half of those they had already made had gone off by their own confessions, and it did seem a little whimsical that `Goveroment was to take the other half for granted. 'But then came the two convincing refutations from 'Sir J. Byng. There was no such man as Dewhiirs•, and he (Sir J. Byng) had no gig. —(Laughter.)--- And yet from these two non-entities Was made out a proof of a connection between Government and the Spies. He believed it was in the time of Mr. Fox, when Geography was not so well under stood by foreigners as it was at present, that one of them believed there Was a roundabout way of getting to England from the Continent by land ; and another has asked whether be could not go from Sicily to England in the same manner ? Being answered in the negative, be expressed his surptise, as Sicily was an island as well as Bog land. So if there had been Dewhurst with out the gig, or the gig without Dewhurst, they could not have been brought together; but there being no gig and no Dewhurst, placed the accusers of Government in a still greater dilemma to prove the connexion. The Right Hon. Gentleman. !hen adverted to the attempts that had been made to show that Oliver had been sent from London as a delegate, and repeated that it was Mitchell who was the London delegate, and who bad taken Oliver with him. But Oliver, being once introduced as a delegate, was obliged to pass as one, for it would have cost him his life to dis avow it. Again, the speech ascribed to Oliver by Mitchell was true as it related to Mitchell, but false as to Oliver. The Right Hon. Gentleman then went over the grounds respecting the 70,000 men, and contended that all that had been said on this subject came from Mitchell, and not from Oliver. Then there was a story of a Gentle man to whom Oliver gave information of a plan to overturn Government by physical force.— But what must he thought of the man who .had never uttered a word of this conspiracy till he loomd that the conspirators had turned informers He believed that this most respectable Gentleman wished to see the Government overturned by force, and was deterred from interfering to effect it only by cowardice. Thus were witnesses brought for ward, blasted in character and in name. Another Hon. Gentleman had said, that he also knew a re spectable Gentleman, who, if called to the bar, would say, that ; Oliver was riding in the Park, and that he told him it was exceedingly Wrong. And it also appeared that this " respectable Gentleman" hail communicated his respectable story to a " re spectable Paper." But how happened it that this very respectable Gentleman, whose loyalty was bursting in his bosom, and whose name had been for gotten, remained so long in the back ground ? Why, because the whole story was false, and that man must he a dolt and au ideot who would be lieve one word of it.—(Loud cries of hear, hear, trout every part.)—Why did he not accuse Oliver now he knew he was an informer I Why, be cause he knew himself to be a traitor, and he would willingly destroy Oliver if he could. He (Mr. C.) wished it not to be understood that he had applied the epithet of dolt and ideot to an Honourable Gentleman who had mentioned this subject the other night ; that was not what he meant. He should rather have said that he should believe himself to he an ideot, if he could place the least reliance on such a story. The House were told they could have opportunities of hear ing the stories of these anonpni; but how could they forward the ends of justice by going into these inquiries ? it was because the House knew that time whole of these statements were delusive that they had abstained from going into them.— But the Hon. anti Learned Gentleman seemed prepared to go at any length into the charges against Oliver; he would examine him for the course of ten years of his life, investigate even his taylor's bills, and have a chip and shaving . Committee of that House to inquire into his ho nesty when he was a journeyman carpenter—(loud laughter) ; and no doubt they would then set aside the award of the arbitration, and revenge the decision of the Court of King's Belie'', both of which were decided in Oliver's favour.—(No, no, from some Mentbers).-There was no mail, he was convinced, except the Member for Bramber and the Honourable Gentleman, who would main tain the proposition, that Government could go on without such sources. Would they wish them to wait till treason had become triumphant, and they were informed of it by men with terror in their looks .. E'en such a man, .6 So pale,. so spiritless, so wet-begone, " Drew Priam's cnr:ain in the dead of night, " And would liar told him. half his 'Croy was burnt, " But Priam found the fire ere he his tongue." So we were to receive such information after the conflagration, and were to detain our informers to make inquiries into their character. But if Priam had detained the man, when the flames had reach ed his palace-windows, to inquire into the parti culars of his birth, parentage, and education, he should have pitied the old man, though it would have been mach more than he deserved. If the House could be persuaded to vote that the councils of disaffection should be concealed and disregarded, who could not foresee that the very foundations of religion and virtue would be the prey ? Government was accused of a total insensibility to the miseries of the people.— What had been the conduct which provoked this accusation ? What would be thought of the con duct of Government when contrasted with those who bad availed themselves of those miseries for the most detestable political purposes ? It had heel) said of Bteaaaparte that he tiao lied toe urojsle of France hut as the raw materiel for conquest , but what would be said ot those salsa availed taemselves of the distresses of the people to serve sonic favourite scheme, ve;:o, without the excuse of being dazzled with t:le and glories of war, approach ed a starving poputation not to relieve but to gauge their niiserike: ant calculate upon the strength of their deSaair. Wh:zt Govertoneut had done with the atithoity of Parliament tvas to save a distressed people from sach persons—what those persons had doer was to inflator the people against the Government. Bat the sense fq the nation—i he sentimeats of the people, were arra pealed to as being contrary to the sense of the House. Aod how Was this supported ? By the petitions *sewed to the House—the thousands of petitions composed and collected by the in dustry of the Hon. Baronet and his friends—the twenty petitions with one thousand subscribars, and the hundred eetit ion 3 with t Weutystibscribers— the Petitions collected by all the artifices of mid tiplyieg the subscribers, by dividing the Petitions, and again multiplying time Petitions, by dividing the subscribers. Was it from these that the sense of the majority of the people was to be judged hear l)—He rejected the test. — But these Petitions were from the Reformers.— '(Here the Right Hon. Gentleman went on for some 'Minutes in a strain of exquisite wit and irony, Which we Coble' in vain attempt to follow, ridiculing the - radical Reformers, who petitioned for universal - Suffrage, excepting only women and lunatics.)He Pitied the exclusion of the female sex, and thought it likely that in fairness the Hon. Baronet would soon present a Petition front the Mad-house at Kensington, respectably and nume rously signed, anti couched in language perfectly respectful, claiming noirtersal seffrage without exclusion.—(The House resounded with laughter and cheering.)—Th e Hon. awl Leartied Gentle. man (Mr. Brougham), who disdained,as much as himself the folly of these Petitioners, who thought of them with prolami] scorn, who knew that the Petitioners were only the deluders and the deluded —even the Hon. and Learned' Gentleman could not help tailing in with the sentiments of the Re formers in - a qualified way, and expressing his opinion that some moderate reform was needed to invigorate the Constitution.. That Hou. and Learned Gentleman needed not have m ide any apology for the panegyric which he had pro nounced upon the Constitution. The question between them was which had done most good to the people, those who preached to the people their rights, or they who taught the people that they had duties as well as rights. Let the people be in structed and educated, but let them not be taught that their rulers are their enemies, and that le velling is right; let them be taught the truth, that to level is not to equalize, but to de stroy. Hatred of the Government was the great principle which theenemies of the people seemed to wish to inculcate. They reviled that which they wished to destroy, but they gave Ito picture of what they intended tosetep in its room.—( Hear, hear!) The lower orders had indeed suffered the most dreadful privations; but what sort of man could be who would say that these privations were occasioned by a defective state of the representa tion ? This was the delusion impressed upon the minds of the unhappy Petitioners. The argotneot used to them Was like this :—that the war was the cause of all the distress ;----the war was occa sioned by a corrupt Government ;—that corrupt Government was supported by a corrupt Hone of Commons ; and that House of Consmons.laid oft the taxes which occasioned all the misery. This was the sort of argument which all the Petitions contained, and in all of them the same question Was begged—namely, that if the Reform which they wished for was made, war would be less fre quent. Against this he would appeal to all his tory, ancient and modern—to that of Greece or Rome—and be would ask whether it could be said that wars had not become more prevalent—the lust of conquest more excessive, in the most po pular Governments ? Such, however, were the delusions practised upon the distressed people of England, by those who could persuade them that • they ought to he dead to the glories of Warelloo, but feelingly alive to the defects in the represen tation of Old Sarum.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—The crime charged against the Government by the op- • posers of this 8.11 wei, that they had delivered the people from such deluders, and had preserved the Constitution nom. their attacks. (The Right lion. Gentleman concluded amidst i the loudest cheers from all sides of the House.) Mr. LANIBTON rose to say, that as the state. meta Which lie had made relative to Oliver had beets so frequently and so unfairly alluded to by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, he now pledged his character, as a man of honour, to bring forward the person to whom he had alluded to the bar of the House, and he would rove the fact. That person was a man of mercantile respectability, unconnected with any of the transactions or debates on this subject. He had not concealed that which be knew of the conduct of Oliver, but had repeatedly mentioned it to persons of hi 3 aCTlAilltance. It Was true that he did not mention it to Lord Sithnouth, be cause he knew. that Oliver was employed by him. Notwithstanding all that had been said upon the subject to•night, he remained peafecrly convinced of the truth of all that he had first stated on the subject. All that he wanted was to have an op. port unity of proving Mr. Ceottee said, that in order in any degree to justify the silence of the anonymous individual, it was necessary to believe that he knew Oliver to be in the employment of Lord Siditionth at the time when the transaction alleged is said to have taken place—a fact which it was maeifest was intpos , ible. If this anonymous person was a man • of respectability, how was it to he accounted for that be hall not communicated his information at a time when the House was engaged in en in• quiry opan 'the . subject —when addresees were presented on the subject.? It was said lie was der terred by fear of the Suspension Act. Now he begged it to be observed, that the outrage on the Prince Regent was perpetrated on the 28th of Ja nnary--ethe Sitspension Act passed on the 4th of March—during that interval proclatnat on were issued, offering rewards to any person who could