The Sun. — London, England, 1810-05-09 00:00:00

7E. MG, t3ca• lud,Bst:llb. Stapleton's tot on [an- hire Cheese* ina, by Kill b. M. zoogs. .h, h. ft. for 3 yrs old. , out of chit of Indy. r. Douglas' s npion. - ke's Master h. ft. -5 to 1, h. ft. for caner of the Bou veries e pogs. to carrying 6-yr 0105 'oke's ;ircerer,„ out h• 9 1 b. ; .54 1. -Last Ore Air ,f 7 th, or ome time e received le of the both WW I , mman ded Lieut. Portugal• Bank rs of the next, Nir. Itlemen as Loan, in rrange the :1 by Col e , P, late 9 1 iplining a the Eng exer caval►y a mission ve formed 1 , for Sub' was realli ces in th e entertain' H os tesses er passed e Musical ; t o be in the mos t of Lord D be sung 1 111PERL4L PARLLIMENI: HOUSE OF- PEERS, TUESDAY, MAY 8. it The House in a Committee of Privileges heard 'Air. Gillies on the c l a i ms to th e R ox b u r g h P eerage . A further hearing to-morrow. Several Privat e Bills w ere brought- up from the ' 3 Itmons, and read a first. tittle. The Irish and Scotch Judges' Salary Augmenta uon Bill was reacta second time. Lord HOLLAND gave, notice that on Friday se'n rlight he .shouid move the 2d. reading of 4he Bill for 4tl lending .the Acts respectitz Privalely Stealing, a Mtteir Lordships -were 'ordered to be summoned fur that. day. CRUELTY TOWARDS ANIMALS. The H ,use lug resolved itself into a Committee 7 ° t l this- 611, a, number of ainettdcnents, Many of tl verbal, were moved. ELLENBOROVGLI suggested the propriety of s ilbstt utusg the words " stab and - in place of the Words "cu and wound." His Lordship also e ,,,taiessQd Ids doubts as to the . general efficacy of Bili. these Opinion:, Lords ELDON, LAUDERDALE, HOLLAND, nearly ooinctded, and disapproved of the idea ut icharding such a measure m e r e ly upon t heoretic ground,. It vt as then recommended to f e cbm ri init the Bill for that day se'night, when a all r attendance might be expeCted, and for which ' 4I Y their Lord4hips should be suiumon:d. sti g gustioA, after some observations from "Ird EkOkINE, was adopted, and the Bth was ae vo.kiiiigiy ordered to be reeuminitted this day se!en tiiol.--Adjourried. HOUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY, MAY e. The E.trl of Essex's Estate Bill went through a , •mittee. The House went into a Committee on'the Aet r elating to H err i ngs , w hi c h i s near exp iriug.—A re t()lutioii was agreed to for reviving the same. Pelson 'fro 1, tine Excise Office presented an Account of the Duties on Spirits, which was laid c3 t l _l he table. Mr. LYTTLETON postponed his 'notion, which ,V)ud for this day, rcspeding -Capt. Foskett, till ttursday next, and the motion on the same sub which stood for Thursday, until that day se'n- Iligitt. The Irish Stage Coach Bill was postponed tin tr riday. • Tile Stage Coach Bi!1 vent through a committee, a nd the Report was received, and ordered to be t 'ken into further consideration on Monday se'n- Ili g l 4. • The Housewent into a Committee on the neces pof making coini,ensation to. Scotch Extractors.— lie resolution to tlial effett was agreed to. The Report of tne Bill fur abul:sbmg Commissary 414 1 Inferior Courts in Scothaid was brought up and 'clrect.l to. ' • Mr. SHAW LEFErRE presented a 'Petition from Inn 7 keepers, re-petting the Bill now before ` ll- liatnent, for their relief. The Hon. Gentleman hated, that he should move that this Petition; and 4U i l le others on the_same subject, should be referred t 4 aComtnittee. The Penttun was then laid on the A Message from the Lords announced that their I ' o rdships tad ag'eed to. several Private Bills. PETITION OF THE LIVERY OF LONDON. Sir WILLIAM CURTIS lose and stated, that he A l eid in . his hand 'a Petition from the Lord Mayor, „lderden, and Livery of the City of London, in ‘ -; otomon-liall - ase.nbted, which he was desired to Present to the House.. The Petitioners, among other t hings, he observed, expressed -their sorrow and re gret at certain proceedings of thiS House, and rievances for whi:.ll they desired a remedy ; that i t had 13 , ,en declared in this House, that the doors, Pirinitnent should be open wide to Petitions, and: t here or they came for relief. The Hon. Baronet . it was but fair he sl.oukl mention to the House, 14 the Petition ‘ivis not exactiy the petition of the ‘‘'hole Body - "'ill was rather full, yet there .were many thou sands not present. At the same time, he must tle, Tarr, that the Meeting was constitutionally con l'tetied bx the Lord Mayor, and the sentiments of t he Pt-Anton were those of the Livery : so assem bled. The Petitioners, observed the Hon. Baronet, after stating certain grievances of which they corn - rain, beg this House to reconsider the measures late, adoOt e d, 17,;_th reference to the committal of 1\ it-. t'ned ani Sir. Francis Burdett, to retrace your steps I t 1 (1 to expunge from the Journals the resolutions t. ° ll le to on that occasion. Now these sentiments, t.,_ uotigh coming from the Livery, it is my duty ( 0 conv e y- to the House, as one 'of the' repre sentatives of the City.'of London, yet I must de clare that they are very far from being my own. The Mition was then brought up and read. by fhe Cie* at the table._ Sir W. CURTIS then. mogeci , that it do lie on the table: `Zr. Secretary RYDER rose to oppose the motion. 4 lie Right Hon. Secretary declared that in risin g to go so, he was discharging his duty as an independ et .,'t Member of Parliament, .and he should' ftei less 4ettion to state his own sentiments, because the Ivotthy Baronet ,h id stated that . the Meeting of the, pf ''very was consiitutionconvened, yet the Peti ' tt uo was'not the sense of- a very great body of his c°ll stituents. At the same-tithe he was bound to give his opinion, that though the Petition contain ed th e sentiments of the' persons assembled, it ought . 11 0 t t o lie on die taUe. He could. not - consent to let a I~etitioh, certainly drawn up with great art and ad dress in order to avoid chjettion to its recepiion, be lai d on the table. _ The ,Petitioners having - seen that "'lot;.er petition had been rc-jeCied had • recourse to all th e art they possessed to prevent a similar - fate to the present petition, but it was impossible that the House could shut its eyes to the wording of this I ' r 'tt oil, hic it conveyed the most marked insult . to the House, and was calculated tp degrade it in the ( t 'Yei of th e count r y., S ome par t s o f t h e Pet i tion L '" could not pass over without observatibn. They Where is your justice and yotir dignity, 'hell ytiu did so, acid so and • so." Was not that and if a petition of this nature Was ad r'l.tted on the-tab t , the House would deserve to be degraded, and to be the mockery and insult of the constituents of. the, realm. For these rea sons, he should move, " That, the petition be re jeCied." 11 , 1 r. Alderman COMBE was ,sorry that the Right Hon. Gentleman . should objet to 'the reception of the Petition ; and he was surprised that he should do so, after his worthy colleague, the Hon. Baron et, hadoited that the meeting was constitutionally convened. The Petition was in fa6t that of the ma jority of the Hall. It was impossible that the whole of the Livery could be assembled, as the Hall would not contain them. Of those who were assembled there were not .above fifty • held up their hands aglinst it. If that was not the-criterion of the sen timents of a body of men, he did not know what ; was. The Hon. Alderman observed that he saw - by tLe• papers, for he did net 'know the 'fad in any other way, that a counter-meeting had been held, and among the names subscribed ar that meeting In the resolutions and declarations, he saw e'ght or. ten who were at the Comthon-hall, and' held . up their bands against.the petition. To be sure every body knew that at'a popular Meeting the adverse party were not allowed to speak. (A laugh). Gentlemen might laugh, but the fad was so ; but, though they even could not be heard, they held up their hands.— He should Vote for the petition to be laid on the table. Sir W. CURTI, in explanation, states that he had not said the majority Were 'not in favour Of 'the petition. Sir CHARLES PRICE had the honour of .attending the meeting as one of the Represeutatives, and he conceived it his duty 'to call the,attention of. the -House to the manner in. which it was condUderl. The House, he was satisfied, had never assumed power , or privilege but for the people's proteaiOn, and therefore he. was ready to maintain them. At the meeting he had offered himself to their notice to deliver his sentiments, but was not permitted, for general clamour was the order of the day.—Any one who was known to be of a contrary opinion was insulted, and many wished to speak on that side, htit were not allowed. • The Honourable Baronet as serted that the majority of the Livery did nut enter tain the doarines which the Petition contained, and he should be'unfitto represent that city if he did not state so much. He was satisfied from the declara tion issued a: the counter-meeting; that the resped able part of the Livery were of differein sentiments.- He must therefore maintain the sentiments of the declaration,- and could not subscribe to the general opinions of the pet*ition, nor lend a hand ,to sup port it, but vote for the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. . Sir James SHAW observed, that the Worthy Ba ronet had very properly stated that the meeting was legally convened. With respeet to its being numer ously- attended, there might be a few thousands. The description of them was of a general nature; there certainly were many very respeelable Livery-' men present. When he delivered , his sentiments in the Hall, he had stated that the language of the pe tition was not the language nor the sentiments of the great body.of the Livery. There 110 been - another meeting since ; and to the deelaratiog issued at that meeting he understood there were 1400 . n4mes sub scribed.: he could state, that there - were not,. in •his opinion ; 1400 Liverymen at the Common 11,11 ; he felt it however to be his duty to give support to the petition. Mr. Wiseraaari expressed liis surprise at the conduCt of the Right Hon. Secretary in objeding • to the Petition, and his conduct in applauding the sentiments of the two Hob. Baronets after the state ment of the other Hon.-Baronet who .presented the Petition. With respeei to the - smallness or largeness of the.majority in favour of the petition, his sur prise was-excited that the Right Hon. Gentleman, who, in 'concert with his colleague, persuaded a majority of thirty-eight only to send Sir Francis Burdett to the Tower; that be should contend that ' the small number present was not the decision of the whole body, though the meeting was nearly unanimous, was too much. The Right Hon. Gen tleman bad objected to the e4pressioe in the Peti tion of " where is the dignity and justice the House." As well might they have said, " where was the common sense oft he HonSe when theyt brow a shield over the Right Hon. Gentleman, and the Noble Lord when charged with having abetted cor-' ruption." The House cnight talk of preserving its. dignity, but might not the people after such' a pro ceeding ac.tvi,e them if they wished to preserve their dignity, to begin by retracing their steps, and ex punging the resolutions complainect of, which -were• a disgrace to the House ?- Had not the House pros mulgated the doEtrine that seats were bought and sold, and yet when the people retorted on them their own declarations they must not be receivA. What-was the language of the people ? why that the construce tion of the House was bade Let the House look to their own Journals to be satisfied that the assertion was true. Did not a Right Hon. Gentleman, Mr. Yorke, shut the doors of the House while another Right Hon. Gentleman shut the ears of the Sove reign ; and did not the first Right Honeurable Gen tlernan after obtaining 9 Tellership of the Es.Che quer for his services, go down to Cambridge, Where he was beloved_ as a private Gentleman, to be re turned; but the eledors were so dissatisfied with his public condud, that' they reje&ed him :..and what was the consequence ?'---Why, - after being ap . pointed to a situation of high official trust, he was obliged . to be returned for a borough. In the Crown Office the people were told that 'Mr. Yorke was no minated to a seat in the' House of Commons by.a Peer of the realm ; could the House, after this, complain if the people talked of the construction of the House of Commons, and complained of it ? The Hon. Gentleman saw no objection to the Peti tion on account of its language. The Middlesex Pe• tition was reje&ed, .yet that Petition was not so ;strongly worded as the Westminster Petition, which was received. Then' comes the City of London, • and that was to be reje&ed because the petitioners had been studious to avoid giving offence. What did Ministers want ? Did they desire that the sub ' jest should petition according to the _form which they should_ prescribe ? And was it iistended, in case they should remain long enough in office, to tell the people that unless. They did so, they should, not petition at all. Mr. W. then adverted to the opinions delivered by the Right Hon. Secretary on the, preceding night, with resped to the case of Mr.. Wilkes; and, he observed,. that to the struggles of that patriot, assisted by Ow legal opinions of Lords • Camden and Chatham, on the subjea of general warrants, the people were mainly, indebted for the 4)reservation of their remaining liberties. He then noticed the refusal of the Right Hon._G.entleman to allow the Livery to approach the Throne ; and ob served, that the name of the Sovereign had been in decorously used to ppelion Ministers in their refusal. He contended,. that the Levee, f rom 1775 to the year 1809, was the proper place topresent addresses.; that. until the Right Honourable Gentleman refused to allow them to see the King, they had never been denied; that ;he obstrutlion which they had met with was truly stated by Mr. Cartwright, and. was .prOceeding in hiS observations on the fanner discus sion, a hen • . . . The CHANCELLOR ' of the EXCHEQUER here ' rose to order,- The Honourable Gentleman', he con ceit ed, wts clearly disorderly in. referring to a for flier debate. ;+,4. WHITBREAD admitkd that he was nut of ord.,:r. He then proceeded to comment on the con duct of mv Lord Hawkesburv, when Secretary of. State,, who, he understood, never presented one ad dress. In what situation then, he observed, d.d the subject stand? After some further observations on these topici, the Hon. Gentl man contended, that the House would be departing more and mere from its dignity if it refused to receive the Peti lion, and would be committing an ad of injustice . to the people. , Mr. WILB.ERFORCE rose, to stlggest the propriety of 'adjOuroing the debate, in order to give time for mature deliberaion. When he considered the ex treme responsibility of the body from which the' present Petition emanated, he could not but exceed ingly wish' that the final decision upon the recep tion or rejedioh of it should be alter lull considera tion. It was due to the Livery, after the calm man ner 111 which the two former petitions had been co-o sidered, that they - should experience. similar atten tion: He would rather that the result of the deli beration should be- after the Petition had been at tt ntively read, and not that the Hou se sh ou ld come to a vote upon the casual reading of it at t Ire. table, Sure he was, that by so doing:Atte HoUse.Would be shewing respect to the first city in the World, and to the people of England. He could not conceive any injury could come from adjourning the debate for 24 blurs, and therefore should move " that the de bate be adjourned-till to-morrow:" Mr. S. SMITH had read the Petition with care, and was prepared to vote immediately. He thought the opinions of the Right Hon. Secretary - out of. all time and: place, and if a&ed upon likely to lead to endless disputes. It had been agreed on all hands that the meeting of the Livery was legal, that the majorny•were in favour of the Petition, but then it was objected .that the sentiments were sucli as could not be received. Why, it was not likely the Peti tioners would petition against what they did like, and therefore the Petition must, in some degree,- be objeaionable. With respect to the Woo - former , Petitions, he had objected to the Middlesex Petition because it contained_otTensive expression.. The pre sent Petition did not contain any thing of that na ture, but merely asserted matters of fad, which in their belief they stated do exit. On this ground, .therefo,:e, of the Petition staling fads, he should vote for its lying on. the table. Mr. BARHAM thought there was no ground to in duce the House to refuse the Petition. .He had read-it attentively, and could not 'see to what part any reasonable ground of objection count be stated, .unless it was to that part which alleged that murder had been committed, when, in point of fad, that . allegation had not been proved. To that part of . it which asked " 'where is your justice and dig nity," he saw no objcaion, but on the cceqrary sub s,:ribed to the opinion as referable to' the case al luded to, as'indeed he did to many of the assertions in the Petition. Lord. A. HAMILTON conceived that no alarm mull be excited so great as that in which a Ministry succeeded in dragging along with them this House, in their obje6tion to the - subjeifi's petitions. Most parts of the Petition now under consideration had the sanction of the House, for they were expressions used and adopted by the House, and caught by the itionen,. who' infused them into the Petition. As to the dignity of the House being affeeted, he. must refer to the resolutions of lastyear on the subje& sot the charges against two of his Majesty's Ministers, 'which.resolutions did not increase the dignity of the House: Such, being his opinion, he should on some future day move to have them expunged. If the House expected respect, and a proper attention to its dignity, they must begin to practise it, and nut be content with re declarations. Mr. C. AilttiviS thought the Petition was. rather Of a inandstorynatnre. The Hon. Gentleman dreW a distinction between the assertions in it, which he thought made all the difference., and sheaved that the Petitioners, though guarded in their language, meant to convey a strong sense of indirect insult. The CHANCELLOR• Of the EXCHEQUER had not heard any reason to convince hitti that the House ought not to deal with the Petition just presented as they had dealt with the last Petition presented to their) on the same subject. The objection made by his Right Hon. Friend to the reception of the Peti tion was not grounded on the assumption that it did not speak the sentiments of the majori'y of the Li very. That was a question, the consideration of which would on no occasion influence the House to receive or to . reject a petition. His Right Hon. Friend had been completely misunderstood, and had only argued. that in objecting to the reception of, the Petttion, on the ground that it contained matter and expressions which rendered it impossible fur Oh House, consistently with their duty to them selves and to their constituents, 'to entertain it; it'was some consolation to him to reflect, that it did not proceed from a majority of the body wh )se Peti tion it professed to be. -Indeed, when the small num 7 ber of signatures to the Petition was considered, al though i,t did follow that there were not many indi viduak consenting to its object ; yet it was a fair in ference, that tile number was not so great as was at, tempted to be represented. -The distinct ground on which 'he'sbould vote for the rejection of the Peti tion, however, was, that, it was wholly introduced to insult the 'House. If any one could make it ap pear that such was not the evident object of the Pe i timers ; he would concur in the motion for its re- ception._ - In his view of the subject, it was impos- . - sible to understand it in any other manner. He trusted, that the House v, Pad not confine their ex ' atuination of the Petition to one or tvio of the'iu _ r traductory passages, and that, thersevoald :ncts - be inclined, because the Petioners affected " !nimbly to conceive," to . give admission to ae Petition of a nature so offensive. It was true, that in the Peti tion rejected the other day the most gkoss'and,un Shielded declarations werecentained ht.% II other petitions,. having the same purpose itessiew s and comprising the same matter, with the single excep tion of being somewhat more .inarded, e ere admit ted, how idle would the: proceeding; of. the HoUse appear, and how completely woutd they hold theta-` selves up to public contempt. An Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Whitbread) seemed to think that pe titions of any sort ought to be received. The aro . - ment of that tionour.:ble Gentleman was that the House of Commons had already lost its dignity and its sense ot justice, and that the confidence of the ' people in it was ,shaken. Not only did tbe.Ho nourable Gentleman -declare that such were his e s sentisnents, hut he added, that the House must. not expect the• people of England to approach' them in their petitions with deference and respect. -If that were indeed the opinion of. the Honourable Gentleman, he-might well argue for the reception of any petition, however offensive and insulting. If that Hon. Gentleman were prepared to receive the insults of any petitioners—if he even led the way in insulting the House—if he- contended that the de claration that the House had lost its dignity was the language of truth and justics—then indeo it was no longer surprising that he sheuld support such a petis iien as that which it was proposed to lay tin the table. He could not, however, conceive that the observa tions of the Hon. Gentleman grounded on such argud ments, would have any weight with the House ; how ever vieleritly they might he usged e Tile Hon. Gentleman asserted that his Majesty's -present Mis nisters were tnen calculated to bring the country, into a difficult situation, but that theV were not men calculated to fight the battles of the Hoeseof Com - - mons against the People. If that battle must be fought, it seemed that ihe House would not have the assistance of the THonourable Gentleman. Oa the contrary, it seemed that he was one of those -with whom the House would have to contend.-- Whatever might be the success of that battle, he trusted that the appeeranee of such insulting docu s -meets as that just presented wou ld Inspirit the House to resist the ousels that was making upon ehern, and to shew that they were not to be iutimi dated, although their assailants might he beaded even by the Honourable Gentleman himself. As to the proposition for deferring the decision of The pre sent question; he really was at' a loss to conceive what doubt could exist in the mind of his Honour able Friend, with respect to the course which it be came the House to pursue: Rising, however,' yielded to a similar wash expressed on a former oc casion, be -should not objeti to his Honourable Friend's proposition. He tt Listed, that his Honour able Friend•ansj the House wotild in tbe mean time consider the Petition, and determine whether or not it was proper that the dignity and justice of they should be•questioned by Petitioners, who " humbly conceived" not only that their proceed ings had been contrary to law, but that t o united effort of' the Legislainre could make them legal-- who stated, that egey were not at all surprised at those proceedings, when they refleEted on the mar-- nor in which the finose Wasconstru,`:t.sl—who, al luding..to a vote of •tlie Ho us e, d ec l are d' t h at they could not contemplate ,it wisheut. indignation and disgust—and who assertsd, that the House cif Coin- % mons had lost the remaining confidence of the peo , pie ?—Were not _these expressions :insults ? -Could any rational man dOubt that it was the distina ob jest of the Petitioners, under the. mask of humble • conception, to insult the House of Cenenons more grossly than they had been insulted 'even on former occasions? It had been said by some onein the course of the debatelbat he (she Chancellor of the Exchequer) objeaed to the reception ot the. Petition, because of the manner in which his own name was mentioned in it. He had however' given manifold evidence that such did‘not forM wi h bins a ground for the rejection of a Petition. The first Petition presented on " this suhjed, and in .tbe reception of which he had acquieSced„ mentioned him in a si milar mounter.' He had consented to the reception of that petition, because it came in the first instance from the constituents of the person who had .just then been committed by the House to the Tower ; because the Petitioners had hardly had time to de liberate bn the stria propriety of their expressions, and bedause he was anxious that no captiOusness should he shewn by the House .on such a suhjeEt as the receiving of the Petitions of the people. Bet did it follow that from day to day and from week to week the'House were bound to entertain fresh and increasing insults ? -It was too obvious that there, • Was a disposition existing, in many individuals with out those walls to degrade and vilify the two Houses 'of Parliament, and he was sorry to add that there seemed to be a person in that House disposed to- lend his assistance to such an effort, and to set the example of using the strongest language of of.. fence.—He trusted that after a mature consideration the House, on resuming the discussion, would treat this Petition as it deserVed—that they would cOre sides that the character ot a Petition ought to'be des cent and respettful to the Body to whom it was ad dressed—that they Would .de:elmine that although they would not captiously lay hold of any accidental impropriety of language in a Petition, yet that when there could be no-hesitation in believing that a Pe.; titian was presented for the express purpose of in- suit s it would be weakness to consent to its being . laid on their table. ! Mr. WHITBREAD av - ailod him Self of theopportu4 nity afforded hiM by the new question of adjourn-_ menti; to reply to some of the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleniin. The Right Hon. Gentle man had supposed that he (Mr. W.) was one of those. who tlught - that every petition , Aought to be received by the House, let it be couched in what 'language it might. • This was not the fad. As a Member of Parliament. he had always conceived himself bound to present to :he House any petition communicved to him by any ir,dividual for that purpose, unless that petition contained offensive ma , - ter or language ; and with this sentiment he bad frequently suggested their coriefition •by the peti tioners of petitions so given to him for preSentation. But the Petition under consideration was the'Peti tion of a constituted and dslibefativq,bocly—of a body whcx had a right to address nis Majesty on the throne ; and who bad exercised that right until ob struacd by the present Administration. He con- 1 II 1 i i;l I t i le 1 il' ~I ii s at some U2V e a rernon are, wil ° its dorni :ordingli in coo' in grel t , in COw; g carried from 3 ,r of per , vide 10 6- ir extirl" ;s, 3dder tri upon ti'° .be irl three ;oilier o ' ,. 1-serirant obsell , and L t 'he skuit hours...." iving 11.15 From the t.- The. 'is hands t it wa! )ner had on the e of the he Kent )reaking ;iderablY eon. plies Of foreign; ivy sale' ite Pea`' the late 'ram till quote" es a 0 5 z6s a 341 ci a o 461 a 5 1 5 'ss a 9° sos a bss .4%-%