The Sun. — London, England, 1818-04-16 00:00:00

r corr e ' II it lig ( ' l o mit! b e to hint . - i t Cala ' y WOO ld ,11(1 put coon: icli boa p t e(I t o t C°n6 : CO ( ul 'could ition to but I le !, t o the arrisg e ,' tl►oug'i s flies ° debt 111 l 011411 e. do t ell ti'C l , ll s Old tP "re" fr om which they were to be met. What :;vde:ol7ilignity lie might meet with from the other t h, . the tiouse, for proposing a smaller sum he all t " was in the first instance meant to call_for, be ! "'lll'i never feel the course he was taking to ahinici`!"istent with the discharge—the hononr- 1 th i e r :','' c harge of his duty. -Though ha agree( he ; 4 4 -)e mail who gave tip any public principle to .w.;t a im kstrnment of a measure which he . could verov e duty, ii , abdicates both his charaCier and his ti ro w e w ° 4l tl cout-end that the present qaes 10s:.ti ' 4l one which, from the course taken .by . prin:l,rs, involved no abandonment of public Which -11'`e,---(1-lear !)—ln making an arrangement Fd irl .4 "It'e'ed the junior branches of the Roya l bail there Wqs a marked distinction, as . be as „ n 'lure contended,- between their_ situat ion li e _lllaried Men, and as being in a married sta te . i.l ,tligivit()llceived in the arrangement made, not hing their '111,4 its, be detliteled from the regular incomesan; eal,4,llYal Highnesses in consideration_ of .. s. liOl,iirientS which they might receive rote clep t ,. 'Y. To adopt such a principle, would be to l ited ly t e t he public of all benefit. that might be de -144, ; ' l ° 4 l their talents; and how cruel the sittia erl,,,ive'll Which they would be pl ace d, th e co mmon totlls gilled o hfe t a k en away from them, and they Pin?, to feel t h at nothing they might accom tl44- c°4l(l place them in a more eminent sia l'tre ,a lll° "gh born to an exalted station, t hey , tlisr, -reltaY subjected to some cruel privations, 14114blietintis„0(1 exemptions, which fell on etef ' s "l 'tr class of uthjects. Others, from the ex %My e f ( 4 their talents, might realiz e fortunes not It tl , ''t themselves, but for their descendants.— I tov a % lh e Pectiliar lot of the Members of t he . of ,' ramily to be exempted from opportunities lele-‘l4llllsbilig indepeudvnt fortunes for them' k ik - °' their posterity. It might be wise to 1) 1 , e "let dependent on the regard of the people, trtl:e"glit this principle to be pushed to the e . x r : esr,,al:4gth of forbiddin g them, under any ci IN knit ' ee s, to endeavour to improve their lo t , kt 4 . 4 l at, addi t i on to t h at income wkich veas b,liltt:(1,11 Parliament ? Tlie whole of the. Ro y a l a it;h - 1 ""Y ought to be careful .to - treat only as 'a (I"r . ,' "f the ,Royal Family. They ought no t f th - ''' from the personal character of any one zt4t - i em 0,-, t he question submitted tO their coitsi : It tlitt ° , 4 ' a $ this world on the door to en d le ss Pers l e ' equally unp leasant and improper, on the LA ' ll me t ifs of intduals.false impression °f ifg:'li,e broad .011. the subject of the emu i ent i s t itlialatia\itZ:relt of f Cambridge, at Haub wer , . an ' a 'lleit'''etuber had wished some informat ion as to to be laid before the House. This 11 (1, 1 14 ti t WiliCh could not regularly be given. Hi s e- lealat.`lieltiess was exposed to much .roisrep t r iat t her e , ' , l ' 14 this particular; but he could Itate,•t • . ', n'as nothin g in the charac;er of his situa, '44 L.'"•"tielit to deter the House from spewing :Isite,,ltetion and their duty, by maki ng the pro• ne u, 'IN' hial that would be propose d, and which, t i ( t t igii 4 ; l : l 4 ',,y, eon., on justice to the individua l -- 'oe te e , t hem to n grant. He could assure the Sal Sti-,,tnat thiS ilitistrious Duke_ had no iutentior f t t'sitli'',''''thle himself front this country, or o 41 1 s, g 1-41''nanently abroad ; nor had h e eve r - Lii,ln•ltell intention, for the, whole of h is es t t h a e :4'1444.11'" th is country remained during, the -41/le f oot' lie lie liatt b ee n- abroad, .exactly '"' hisl k t ,,„, ' '' l .•i (L f ,' lt 'R in which it had been during .1. " t 'ltt i t e ; 1 " this country. It v! e w_._ 0 tt a s . , t' t4 til e Irlr t he tiouse to keep this wialla very 10 ' -- '''ke a i lli r ( " i nt of the emolument o . this 11 . t whole :hul l ' - Funs material *0 :State, that mah;:aid 0.. f , 1 e • 4 „ t , his Royal Highness's'l"Y' ) e•tir lr. ';`: 41 Hanover, was only about 5300 . a a t. tt.,l -eYond this, all the other eniolunte i 24kii,"°` that situation Ved It at aie :,' 'lle total amount of his income der ii . did uot exceet n 7 i o s ol , v et, i ; l i n , ua tiati at the head of the'army in . a • i t --, 'atm 60001. ear. At the same time %41-(1,1..4 c°llteilvde that aa tyemporary employment i , rl tsß, 4'i n ; ; t elt as that now held hy-his Royal Hig t ,, '"e - '''ght not to weigh with the I-louse in mak- Itkliti""ttsinii of the kind now prono,_e . d, and )I.4 tisi l" t ° Preclude the House from making that feat, 1) ," such as was doe to the son of a Ki"gt.—he , 11 1. 1)ai Illear !)---As to the income derived trout ‘"to il l 11 " e ' ll s of antithet of the Royal Dukes de te, t i i, the returns of it had not yet been he, I '''tria l it 't still, su far as it could be ascertaine d, . te r " state it, That Royal Duke had the go 7 , n r „ :'';o ' ,; 111. °f Gibraltar antl y a , regiment of infantry. 'try t he latter , regiment of infantry was 'no Cr. p rot , a to Royal Duke 'tif able to any mart ; but a Hie h "1 Y Ili .. h Vtr i Itelt less so than any other p e rson. . r ( ~d -41 p r 11411 t .and his regiment both toget he li ' l 4 , ii -tice him above 60001. a year. And here 4 , 4 I, 1111 e °lust rem ark, that this was an income li• t 'l: f and therefore l4le t° rum casual circumstances, a ane t he same observation which he bad be fore 'he . 6 t _flut its stating the emoluments derive d by te '*s t 'lke °f Rent from th ese appointments, it was 111i.tit;Y tc)-r ecolleCt that his Royal Highness liatt 'ale,„.°4leen years in service abroad in va r io u s Ilil y ,i," , which was th ree years longer than 4 4t aa taer membe r of the Royal family had served 14 e :'' a nd six years later than some. Jr there %kti it4111(1 not he thought much, if, after such a. :ti. c)( ')1 service, lie had the -emoluments of the l ' l l4, ll ' lll e4t of Gibraltar and ot . a regiment o f i llgs n r c y It wntild surely be foreign to the feel : '"1 . 1) . ,,' t he House to suppose, that. to a proposal_ th e l tr vi dulg a suitable income for a member of i t c, ° Yal family on the occasion of his marriage, be 4 ' 111 (1 be answered that the proposal would not ti le eectled to, because that personage for whom e4s' '1 17,° vision was asked had already such and such fell sou rces of r evenue. O n these grounds he tv,,,,el.°4liileitt that t h e H ouse, in deciding on what tr esse s he a proper pr ov i s i on f or their Royal High- , be t t s i tite Duk es o f K ent and Cambridge, would ti()4''Ke into consideration the temporary addl.. (Cti,el" th eir . revenue which they at present re }krr,t;'l from s ituations now held by them, as a in ' al l f(ir maki ng t h at provision less than the. I ttl i ::: e "'mild oth erw i se think suitable. After the th e tp, which had al rea d y disclosed themselves in telv'°"se d o the general question, his Majesty's of 'lts Itatlfelt i t their ditty, in fi x i ng the amount t t , ,I''e proyision which they tneant I o propose, "e t) 4 , su oil the closest possible calculation, Nsii..°ll the very love-est scale consi stent w i t h th is ''e to thei r R oyal Highnesses. In making theirestimate Ministers had - not merely acted on hrsn_ l wit judgmenth, they took ' the advice of NvL ' u had tat degree .of experience in such,tnatters which could alone give weight to their opinions, and allthoiity tO — tireirinfornration. In taking this advice-Ministers felt they were do ing that which was an indispensible duty ;, for it must be allowed that it was one thing - to admini ster the affairs of a private family, and a Very dif• ferent thing to administer the affairs of a Royal Duke. They had gone into the subject with a determination to form their judgment on a most minute view of the case. Having formed an esti mate on these princ:ples, and on such advice, the result was, that an annual provision for the Duke of Clarence, iu- addition to what was already granted, of 12,0001., or at the very lowest 10,0001. With less they were persuaded that a proper establishment for his Royal Highness could not be supported without involving him in debt, which was the very evil, above all others, Which the House would desire to provide against. Look ing at the present situation of his Royal High ness, they felt that lesS than 10,0001. would be absolutely insufficient for _the purpose. There fore, in calling upon the Houseto vote such a sum he felt their decision upon it would be equivalent' to' deciding whether or not any sum at all ought to be voted. For the Duke of Cambridge, the Duke' of Cumberland; and (in case, he should marry) the Duke of Kent, the very, lowest sum which could be proposed was 60001. In the case of marriage, the provision for the wife, in the shape of jointure and pin-money, was to be considered. As to pin-moneyithst was of course to be allow ed by the husband from his own means; and such of course was the case with - any of the Royal Dukes. The pin-money alloWed to the Duchess of York was. 40001. a year,; :in the case of the Dike of Clarence it .was tha•ight it could not possibly be made less than 30001. When this was considered, it would be found that in fact the pro posed allowance to the Duke of Clarence, when pin -money was deducted,would amount to no more than 70001. a year. .He would submit to. the House -whether any smaller surd could be pro posed ; and he could assure them,- that- his, Ma jesty's Ministers had gone into the subject with a painful desire of meeting the wishes of the House in such . a nay as would prevent them from deranging the whole economy of the Royal Family;'--(Hear, hear, hear !)-11 . the House felt interested in a proper provision with a view to the succession to the Crown, then he was sure it must be allowed that this provision could not pro perly he fixed ,at a loWer rate. The succession to the Throne was a, subject in which the House and the COuntry certainly took a very warm interest ; and he was sure that, in making' this proviiion, the House would. have in view the succession to the Throne, and would desire to prevent the country from being exposed to the additional risk of . the succession devolving on any of the Houses on the Continent connected with our Royal. Fa-. mily. He bad now opened to the Home (and lie hoped he had done it fairly) all that his Majesty's Government originally intended- , ---what they now, proposed, and the views and princip)es on which they had acted. He trusted that the House would give theni credit for an anxious desire to place the King's sons in that situation which the feel ings of the country, the rank of the personages, and the interests of the nation required. In now proposing the additional sum. of 6,0001. for' the younger sons, he only asked for tim e same provision which Parliament had made from the year 1767 611'1795 or 1796, for his Royal High ness the late Dake of Gloucester, whose revenue during that time was 24,0001., The present Duke Of Gloucester had 28,0001. He would therefore put it to the House, whether, 'if any provision at all was to be made, it could be - lower than that proposed, which would make time total amount of the revenue of these Royal Dukes 24,0001. a-year. He must avow to the House, that he felt very great pain, - not merely personally, but in his pub lic capacity, in proposing a provision on this scale; for lie felt that he was running a risk that he was providing an income too low; It was certainly pushed to the very lowest point; 11e had omit ted to state with respect to jointure, that at first it was proposed that the same jointure should be 1 1 provided for the Duchess of:Clarence as for the IDuchess of York, viz. 80.00/. It was now pro posed to' make it 70001. for the Duchess of Cla rence, and 60001. for the consorts of the other Royal Dukes. The proposal was, that now the amount of the proposed provision, added to the present income of the Duke of Clarence, should make his revenue in the whole 28,0001. instead of 40,0001. as first proposed, and the other Royal Dukes, 24,0001.. a-year, ius,ead of 30,0001. He did not reeolleet that there was any thing else which it was necessary for him to offer to the House on this occasion. With theSe observations he would. submit the proposal to the House once More, requesting them to consider whether by agreeing to it they would not take the best niesins of providing for the succession to the Crown.— (Hear, hear,' hear I)—He concluded by moving the following resolution : " That his Majesty be enabled to grant an additional an nual sum, not exceeding 10,0001. out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and frelaud, as a suitable provision' for his Royal Highness the Thuke, o; Clarence, on the occasion of the Marriage of his Royal Highness." Mr. BARCLAY begged the Home to recollect that the state of the country at present was such that steps were taking for the purpose of raising neat {y 10,000,0001. to provide for the services of the year; that the Prince Regent had thought . it necessary to give up 80001. a year of his income, to assist in alleviating the distresses of the people, and that most of the Members of the Administra tion had made a proportionable sacrifice of their income. Under such circumstances it was that this proposal was brought before the House. • He could not by any means admit that the case of the Duke of York was in any degree a fit precedent for the present occasion. In 1792, the situation of the country was widely different from what it now is. Besides, in the marriage of the Duke of Clarence he could only see the marriage of one of the younger Members of the Royal Family. In the case of the Duke of Cumberland, be did not understand that the establishment of that Royal Duke had exposed him to any additional expence since his marriage, and therefore he should op pose the provision for him. But the question now .before the House was on the provision for the i buke of. Clarence ; and therefore, on%flie prin. ciple that . his Royal (Highness, in.fuch case Should be placed exactly on the same footing - with the other. younger sons of his Majesty, he should decidedly, oppose the Resolution now moved. At the same time, as .he admitted , drat some provision was proper, on such an occasion, lie would not meet it with a negative, but would move an amendment for the purpose of post poning the consideration of this question. He should therefore move, that the consideration of this question be postponed to this day week. The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Brogden) said, the Amendment 'of the lion. Gentleman would' not he regular. His object would probably be 'obtained by moving as an Amendmeat, that he should now leave the Chair. Mr. BARCLAY then moved, as a Amendment, " That the Chairman du now report progress, and ask leave to sit again." .Mr. BEN,NET then rose, but spoke in-so low a tone that he was for the most part quite inaudible in the gallery. lie begged the [louse to consider that the illustrious Personages, for whom the House was now called upon to make a provisi►►n were cut Off froM many sources of emolument which were open to persons , in a different situa tion in society. He was decidedly in favour of the original m9tion. if the Royal Personages in question c:! - )ntract-ed marriages with illustrious fa milies, it was he' conceived incumbent on:. the House to make such provision for them as, the na tional dignity 'required ; and if 50,..,be did not think that any proposal for such Provision could be-more moderate and unobjectionable than that before the House. PROTFIEROE congratulated:the House on. the effect which the manifestation of the feel ings of the House- bad produced on the. ori ginal proposition of the -N.hle Lord. But he could not help observing, that - .the Noble Lord seemed still to vindicate his original proposition, and even at one time expressed a .doubt whether the House would be disposed to come. down to. agree to so low a proposition 'as ,that which. he had .now made. He trusted that the martiages in contemplation of the illustriohs Personages in question were founded on feelings which -would render their cOnnobial . felicity quite in dependent of the addition of any pecuniary pro -vision from .that House. He would ask whe ther his Majesty's' Ministers had in this .instance acted -with honest sincerity towards their Was .trions Master, if they represented the acced ing to any proposition of this kind as a test Of the loyalty of the people of England ? Cer tainly. not.. And yet it did appear as if it were principally, on the giound that it was a test of. loyalty on the. part of the Parliament that time Noble Lord called upon the House to vote for his resolution. He would consider the best sort of Joyalty that which consisted in addressing the So vereign in the language of truth. The House had already- given the most satisfactory disap proval of that old calumny, that it was unduly influenced by the , Crown, and he hoped that; by its conduct. in the present ,case, it would give a still more satisfactory refutation of it. He could not but observe on the unfair allusion which, had been - made to time vote of the House on the sub-. ject of the additional allowance to the Duke of Cumberland. He called it unfair; because . he be lieved that if. ever there was a vote which spoke. the voice of the people, it' was thAt which.'refused sag additional , allowance to that loyal Mike. - On the whole, therefore, he could not bring himself to vote in fayour of the resolution, which he' trusted the House would decidedly reject.- Mr. GURNEY traced the policy of contracting marriages, on the part of the younger branches of the Royal Family, through precedent stages '-of our history, up to the time of the contention . of the Houses of York and Lancaster, during which, he contended, it bad been the policy of the younger branches to match with Foreign Princesses, hav ing considerable dowries, or to marry subjects who were heiresses, -and thus - provide, tor their maintenance in a manner corresponding with their rank. Thus the country was betefited by the in-, trodnrtion of wealth by each ,marriage in the reigning family. He regretted the circumstance of the application to the House under these cir— cumstances, and should vote against the grant. Mr: H. StIgNER said, in a.discitssion of such importance he was, huppy the Country Gentlemen: had taken that.part which because their situation in the mind of the people of the country. Not withstanding time slur of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,who had coustated, it wou,ldappear, the slang dictionary for a term to stigrusitize the Meet ing at L'ord Liverpool's, he would:reply by a phrase from the sAme learned wort., that, notwithstanding that Learned- Gentleman might boast of having a great deal of the gift of the gab (Laughter), still there was at that 'meeting men of sis much honour' , and integrityas ever sat Upon time sideo.f Opposition or Administration.—(Elear, hear 1.)- 7 --,Having pre .mised thus much, he would observe,,tha.t; the. first grant proposed, applied to a Prince not being in the situation of heir presumptive to the Crown„.irt which staticu the Duke of York, in fact, at l present nom], although he had no childreti.--- The Dnke of YOrk ought not therefore to be considered in any other light titan the late much lamented Princess Charlotte, wi ho had received an ample all . olvance as heir-apparent. He, for his part, would not vote a larger allowance to the Duke''of Clarence than 'to the Mite of VOrk ; nor was' lie dispOsed to grant less than 6,0001.• a-year to each of the Royal Dukes upon their respective marriages; but then it would be upon the country's being secured-that the sum. so. granted should be_ appropriated to the •purpose solely of maintaining their state and dignity after . marriage, and' not to pay off their debts. The Duke of Clarence already possessed an income of 18,00,0/. a-year on the Consolidated Fund, an,ad- - ditional 2,5001. per annum on another charge, and 1,100/, per ann. as his half-pay as Admiral of the - Fleet. He had alSo his. appointment of Ranger, with a handsome residence and 3,0001. a,year sa lary, as be had been assured. Altogether, this was a princely allowance :for the Duke, 'whether in a married itate or not. But it had been ru moured, the sums required Were. not. so much wanting to support a suitable state and equi page as to pay off his debts ; that 4,0001. a year was pledged to ' pay incumbrances and mortgages Co the amount of _7O or 80,0001. It was vain to think of extricating him thus. As to the Duke of Kent, he had ap plied the best antidote to debt, by retrench ing and retiring into another country—yie!d ing, like other classes, to the pressure tit tl,e times.—Of the Duke of Cambridge, it had been said by his Royal Father, in the phrase usual at Don, that he had not vet committed . his first fault. These all had their claims. The case of the Duke of Cumberland had been long since de cided on progressively, by majorities of from 37 to 11, until.the Members. were seen flocking from all parts of the conntry, and finally threw out the. proposition for increasing - his income.. On.other occasions, Royal Messages were seu.t for the pur-. pose of asking advice, and informing the House that 'a marriage was pending; but here the marriage had Jong since been completed, and the manner in which the Royal -Duke's claims had heen hooked in amongst- the rest Was, in his Mind, exCe's sively reprehensible. tie aid not profess to *now what would be .the proper course to pur sue in the Committee, or whether an Amen,!- ment could be ,moved on, an Amendment ;. but he woeld-propore,, if the question were not carried now before the House, that' there sh - ohld be laid before The House an Account of the present Net Income of the Royal Dukes. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that he wished to , correct what he conceived to be a misapprehen sion on the part of several Honourable Members. He-begged it to be understood, • that it was not ,because his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence was in debt that time proposed suns was required. It was necessary that Iris Royal Highness should be enabled to support the dignity of the state into which he was about to enter ; on this -ground, and on -this only, it was that the increased ance was proposed. Mr. COKE observed, that he could not, in the present state of the country; .give bit vote in sup port of the proposed measures. He thought that instead of voting increased grants, the rubs( rigid economy ought •to lae observed, and on that ground lie should oppoie the measure. Sir Wm. Cuturrs said, he had opposed the first proposal fora provision for the Royal Dukes, on the ground that the scale on which it was then- • proposed was beyolid- that which the country could at present afford ;- but the proposition. now . made had his cordial support. Mr. ELLISON stated, that Ire rose with regret on the present occasion ; he had been in the ha. •bit of supporting Ministers since he had been able 'to-think or able to act, but he felt it his duty to oppose them on the question before the . 11quse.- On other occasions, however, lie Would itipport - them to the last drop of his blood. On the (pies. tiou before • the House, he. should repeat, that he differed•from theta in toto cod°. He loved liberty and the people as much as any man, yet he had no wish Tto humbug them.(A laugh.)—He thought - the demand tnadei as it was said, in fa-'. your of the Piinces, was not only an insult to the ' nation, btir an injury to the Royal Family, as it was well known that the country could. 90t at - preSent afford' the Money demanded, and that it %;:otild be considered in a point Of view prejudicial to the GoVerriment who proposed it, as well as to the Royal PerSonages to whom it was• to be granted. He would most freely vote for the ad-•_ ditiimal 'allowance to his Royal Highness the Dike of Clarence, though lie could not support , 'the general • proposition, which he hoped would be re-considered by its proposers, as it''n7as a measure not at- all calculated-to meet the wishes of the country-in the present limited•state of its re.sonrces. ' Lord F. OSBORNE Said, he was compelled by the duty - which he owed to his constituents to vote against the amount of the proiision mentioned in the resolution before the CointOtee. Sir T. AcLom--The question before the' House was,. in its simplest form, what was the allow= ance the country should make the Princes of the Royal Family, in case- .of marriage, independent of the question of Individual charaater, or (lid emoluments each derived from his 'place or ap pointments here or abroad. It was rather difficult to appropriate the exact numbee of thousand pounds which might be considered equivalent s , which consideration had operated on an Hon.Mem her (Mr. Barclay), so as to induce him to wish to postpone the question for a week. But this he thought would not be a delicate way of treating the affairs 9f the Royal Dukes, into whose affairs he did' not wish to - pry. He felt no objection to the grant to his Royal. HighnesS the ,bake of Cambridge, but be could not see,the propriety, of placing the-Duke ofClarence on a different footing from that of the remaining branches of the Royal Family. An the case of the Duke of Cumberland, the House had wisely exercised a most deliberate cOnsiderati9n of the subject on a former occasion. He could not, under the circumstances, therefore, give a general assent .to the proposition. Mr. J. MARTIN said, he felt it would inconsist ent with .his duty to vol,e_for the general proposi tion. Lord JOHN RUSSELL was desirous that every , grant which was necessary to the dignity of the Royal Family should be agreed to, yet he thought that some attention should be paid to the means which the country had . of making good 't Lase grants. . Lord LASCELLES thOUghtelt was not necessary that .any delay should take place on the question before them, nor was it at all necessary that they should inquire into the affairs of the Royal Family. It was never his intention to refuse altogether ar increase of allowance to the, Royal Princes, though he thopglit that the sums proposed to be granted were more than the nation could afford. He was desiroas that every necessary measure should be taken for thosupport,of the different branches of the Royal Family according to the dignity of the nation, at the same time that he would not wish to be forgetful of what the nation was able to bear. Mr. FORBES did not think that any distinction should he made between the Duke of Clarence, and the rest of the Royal - Family, - and therefore should vote for reducing the grant proposed r 6,000/. Lord COMPTON was understood to defend the propriety of making a difference in favour of the Duke of Clarence. Though there were two mem..