The Sun. — London, England, 1809-06-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HO LSE OF PEERS, 'MONDAY, J U NE le, Counsel were heard in the Appeal, Groome v. renfoll.—A further hearing on Wednesday next. Tile li,solvent Debtors Bill was committed, and reported , Aithout any amendment. `On the third reading of the Bermondsey,Poor Piti, some conti , ersation aros, , , in which Lord Stan hope warnily,opposed the Bill, and the Lord Chan cellor and Lord Walsingham supported it.—The House then divided on .',the question for the third • reading, Contents . 25—Non-Content : 7 Majority 24. MANCHESTER. WATER-WORKS. Lord BEEBGEOUGH moved the third reading, of thiS Bill, arid argued in favour of it. it was opposed by the Lord Chancellor, Lord Redesdale, Lord Stan btipe, Lords Wilton and Grosvenor, on the ground 'that it waecontrary to several of the standing orders the Reuse. , Lords Hattuowny and liAsowlexli supported the Bill,---Aftei which it was agreed that the Bill should be re-committed to-morrow. The Bilis on the table were forwarded in their respective stages, and those brought up from the Commons were read A first time. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. MONDAY, JUNK 12. The Consolidated funds Bill was read A third time and ,passed. Sir T. 'Foams gave notice, that early in the next Session of Parliament, unless the Chancellor of the F.etc:liever should come forward with some propo relante to an alteration in the Income Tax, will, te,p,, , dt' to she itcale„, and to the exemptions, erained I;) foreigeers, he should, however relucl ,;e y, 100 ft ditty to whinit to the House a ma ts tli•• übj-ct. 1 uRT—N. eot seeing any of the East India r);,, ip their o liters,ektsee.l to ask a lit!,11. cientleman opposite whether it was th, in. 1 , )11 of the Diredats of th , East India Company t(, I,oall those unhappy pet sons who had been out in a late Report as having obtained their rit loos situations ley undue means. Mr. DuNDAs replied, that as tar as he was in for iced, it was not the,intetition - ot the Direttors to ehtpstt from the resoltstion. which they had already adopted. Sir T, TUATON then gave notice, ,that on Wed nesday he would propose a resolution of the House on the snhjeet The House went into a COmmittee on the Judges salaries Bill, in which a long discussion took place on the expediency of increasing the salaries of the 'Welch Judges, and of enforcing their due aftend ince op their Circuits by a Legislative enaelment.— Several clauses, proposed by Mr. Barikes and Mr. , Horner, were negatived without a division, and the Bid hiving been gone through, the House was re- , sinned, and - the report was ordered to be received to-,' morrow. Message from the Lords announced their Lord ships' assent to the Irish Glebe House Bill, the Vote of Credit Bill, the Agents' General Bill, tho Atstze Fees &c. • Mr. Alderman SHAW& presented Petitions from the Londoe Lying-i4lospital and the Small Pox Hospital, which were Ordered to he upon the table. Lord COC#44NII gave notice, that early in the next Session of Parliament he would submit to the 'House a motion respetaing the condom of Ptyaors • in the Distribution of Prize Money; and , a motion , eespeaing the Fortifications di Portsmouth. Mr. . ViIizSITTART proposed his Financial Re solution relative to the 'amendment of the National Debt, ac.—The resolution ,was readproArtne, and' the dybate upon it adjournedlo Monday next. Mr. Stetson abandoned his notice of a motion for a copy of the Patent under which Masters in Chancery were appointed and ,for an account of the emoluments which they derived from their stun- The Hon. Gentleman observed, that the cause of his not -persevering in this motion was his having discovered that the information which it was calculated to produce, was already before the House lie the reports of two several. Committees.' . CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. Sir C. Bus:anti?, after a few preparatory remarks, in Which he dwelt with great feeling, on the in hntnanity exercised in various ways on those noble animals which Providence in his bounty had sent to the essistance of man, and which it was the ditty of roan, to protetit„, moved the second reading of the Bill for prevent ing cruelty to animals . ' Mr. ,WINDHAM deprecated the inequality of the pisseet tileastire, A fief called upon one class alone tit *Octet y to coned the evils complained of: He ex -ire sod his Conviction that the measure was founded , ott kieurions , humanity; .which would introduce, to, ,: o snore misebiel than it would produce benefit. kn the next stage o: the Bill he would detail the rea- Seas u,. is inch his opinions were erouteled. •. Tee Bill Was then read a second tittle, and ordered to be committed tu-morrow. 6IiATil IN PAitl.lAAtl4'l' HILL. TIH: Order of the D:&y having been read for the thie c t reading Of the Seats in Parliament Belt, . = Cuttwen moved, that the Bill be then read 'a third time:: • . Sir T. TURT9I4 rose to ofFsr his sentiments to time lelouse ou the stinjeta. That some reform of Parlia nient was neCtitiilly no one could doubt, after the seite that House on a recent inquiry—a vote cer pints in opposition to_ the sentiments of the great siko j as i t i o f she people at large; and after the tals noterieus aVottial, that on the eve of every elegy tit shop wds opened at the Treasury,sfor the purchase sAtt'tif the People of .Eitglitud. The Bill intro, duced IV his Hon. Fr:enti was, in his opinion, ad s . h:tably ealculaterlto remedy tile evil, and he eft s .s es: hittiSelf astopished at the assertion of an non; Bayonet, on its introduaion, that it was a sham nSeiitsre, - and' furniernetitally wrong; more particu ;er!v that Nod. Baronet 'had abstained. froth pro poling • a mere efficient substitute. In its passage Orotighlite Committee, he certainly thought that iii cletraeler Othe l3ill had'heen Muth deteriorated`; tesPecutily' by the 'omission of the . oath and by the u l dea L llde of the term e*Press agteentent." 'lt stlll'Crietaieed. one gOodprieciple, however, namely, r'''o4e't'Cas tit Fe:lament- had in its if the. power of ifs own regetsenstion. He should theft - . fore vote for the Bit', although he aelinowledged that the hopes and exPettations which he had che rished-on its introdutlion bad been very touch, dia appointed in its progress. - Mr. G. Jorp,:sTOlg repeated his opinion, that the condat of. Parliament Of late years has given them a greater Claim to the gratitude of their conii try than their ancestors had ever possessed. Any change in the cOnstitution of a branCh of the Legis lature ought to be attempted with the greatest circumspection; for it was - difficult, if not impos. .sible, to anticipate the great dick% which might result from causes apparently of little importance. In illustration of this opinion, he. instanced the Nlu tiny Ad, which no one on its introduction could Have been aware would give a paramount power in the Government to one of the Douses of Par. liament. He acknowledged that the Bill before the House had been very much amended in .the Com mittee, but he declared that 'he should:vete against it, because it was the first of a series of intended innovations, and an acknowledgment in itself that a change was necessary in the Constitution of 'the House of Commons. With rasped to the avowal, as it had been termed, that seats in that House .were openly made the liubjeca of purchase and sale by the Treasury, lie declared, that he did not in his conscience believe it to be the s fad. .11 , 1r. - AnEucnorattia,woulc.l 'be compelled to vote against the Bill on different grounds. He consider ed the influence of the Crown, though not so dire&' as it had heretofore been, as too great in-the House, and that it ought to be diminished. This. Bill, in his opinion, would add to that influence : and was mainly ; deficient in two points : first, tram wanting an oath ; and secondly, from the use of the word express," in the clause iroroduced'by the Bight Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Sir T.Towrn N explained. Mr. H. THOINTQN was on the whole favourable to the Bill, though not a very warm friend to it, as he considered it had. received very' considerable (Linage in its progress through the HouSe. As de claratory of the Law, the Bill, however, appeared to e good, even though the enacting clauses might riot be so etfiOient :as c ,nict be wished. , . rie SECRETARY at WAR expressed his admira tion of the British Consiitution, and thought that iiitiouoions might give 'the people more power in the House, as web as elsewhere, than was consistent with its principles. He saw no practical intative nience from• persons coating into Parliament by means of their own money. It was in this way that talents and abilities were often introduced into the House ; and as the' vulgar error, which asserted that money was given in order to make money, was now exploded, he must say he was sorry this Bill was ever entertained. As it was, however, introduced, it should have his support. Mr. ADAM at first thought, that as the common law already applied to the offeece, it was Ut11104336. Baty to entertain this Bill, but he had now a boiler) opinion of • it. He had hoped to be able to sup port it throughout, but tkie clause with respect to offices prevented this. This clause, reduced hun to the necessity of rejeaing the Bill altegether, or. agreeing to the: alternative, that a Reform in the. Representation In 'Parliament was necessary. Ha then , went at sortie length into the consideration: of the clause and the introduction of the word " ee.. press," and thought the beit thing he could d 6 for the country would be, to rejea the Bill at the end of this laborious Session, with the pledge that it would be taken into consideration more maturely early in, next Session. He enforced his opinion by going into a detail of legal objeaions and , other considera lions, and pointing am a number of matters in the • BA' Which rtce,-.ired time to weigh with due • ration, He noticed what would have been the clauses he would have had to propose but for this consideration; the first, to. open the liberty of 'yeti tteriing.to every subjea, though neither an . eleaor Or 'candidate; and secondly, to enlarge the time front fifteen days to one month. ~These, in , tyre view he had taken of , the expediency of deferring the' passing a ; law, till,next Session, it was unnecessary now to enter upon, and he only threw them out for the consideration - of the House. • The ,SOLICITOR.G4NVRL. A did not think' it tie -° cessary to enter into clauses not now offered for con., sideration. .1f they had- been introduced into the: Bill, he would have had many objettions to them, .on accoent of their . novelty'and iecrOachment on the Censitution. They went to render every seat in the House insecure, and to open the door7to that dreadful . species of litigation induced by 'giving en couragement to common intoriners. The Hon. attel Learned Gentleman then went into a defence of the clause which Gentlemen hostile to the Bill al ways .brought into the fore.ground (leaving out of sight all its beneficial clauses), and. contended that there was no novelty in the introduction of the phrase " express," as had been asserted by Learned Gentlemen on the other side.. It was used in the ft.sth anise Of the statute of Frauds and Perjuries, and though not in a parallel case with its present use, yet in a manner liable to every objection that had been urged ligairstit in thii instance. Ifit was a necessary guard in a civil case, bow much more was it required in a penal cnaante‘nt of this itu portance ? Toe hill had his most cordial support. Lord AISCHIBALD HAMILTOW watt hostile to Lie Bill, on account ut the alterations it had undergone in it progress, which were so many, that of the origi. nal Bill .upprosed of try him not five lines reMained. contended, that after the confessions of currup. emit that had been made, some remedy ought to be applied. The 8111 as it now ~;oo.: Its could nut con. hider, as effectual, and therefore ho agreed with the last speaker but one .(Mr. Adam), that they had. better get rid of it tilt - next Session, when a itto.re in3tureu, efficient, and batistildory measure. to the Home and the Country might be brought ibrt.vard. Mr. D. CitunY letta6ted no opinion he had ever expressed in that House, bet he wished to explain What they wore; HiS first was, that property and power shoold be conneeled, but be 'never stood forth the advocate of corruption. He could not think, as some Pentletuen did, that the laOcied and lunnied interests were ever at variance—she thought th e one subservient to:the other. The tiext .was, that the Crown should exercise a considerable de, gfee Of influence over that House ; and that opi nion he still justified and (hired to avow. He wish. ed:ta see .the everal brauchiS of the Letiislature united. An Hon. Member had put to him, l ! Did he not. think that the before them wottitt crttate eenfuttion 7" He did not think itwould. lie then adverted to_ the charges brought against the Duke of York : he did not think, when out of 11,0.30 corn missions very few could be proved to have been im properly given away, that he could be found guilty of criminal connivance: He then. adverted to the Contlua of an Hon. Gentleman, who had excited hopes that the Income Tax might be taken off were a Parliamentary Reform brought about. Abuses, he thought, ought to be corrected where they ex isted ; but Gentlemen ()tight not to seek redress be fore the existence of the evil was fully - proved. They ought not to inflame the.public mind but on ! grounds the most serious. He thought the Bill be t'oro them would do more good than harm, and would therefore give it his support. Lord A. HAMILTON explained. 'Sir F.. Butingrr thought the Bill would not be found efficient to redress the grievances complained of, but he was of opinion, it would be efficient in another respeCt, as he thought it could not fail to operate in favour of corruption on the part of the Governmeet. Theiflonourable Baronet then corn mented at some length on : the speech of the last speaker. He hoped the Honourable Gentleman who brought in the Bill would now vote. against it. Nothing, he thought, would display a greater in 'consistency ?f condu6l than would be displayed in the prevent case, if he continued to vote for his Bill, seeing its nature was entirely changed. 'lt had been said the Bill did not contain more than five lines as they originally stood. He would go farther, and take upon himself to say, there were but three lines and three quarters of the Bill as first brought in.— He trusted the Honourable Gentleman would not feel himself ao much attached to his offspring; or rather to this changeling, as to let it go forth to the world with his name, when it was in reality the off spring of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite. The Honourable Gentleman, in one of Its early stages, begged of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he would not melt his Bill down to nothing, but down to nothing he thought it had been melted. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, he thought, stood in a very extraordinary situation, as the )3ill went to punish that of which he had been accused with , his Noble Colleague. The mode of reasoning in that House was precisely opposite to that adopted else where :.there the frequency, of the commission of a crime was considered as rendering punishment im proper; in every Court of Justice it was quite the reverse. Some had asserted ,that what they were charged with,was no crime in the eye of the law, but they had only to read the laws•of the country, and they would find innumerable proofs to tlip con trary. This Bill would never produce the reform desired by the people. It was. not only an insult offered to their good sense, but an injury Of. consi derable magnitude. In bringing it forward, the Honourable Gentleman expressed a hope' that it would have reconciled those who before were at variance. It was in feel to be a sort of a Political Messiah, diffusing concord and breathing harmony around ; but alas ! the very reverse of all this had followed its introduaion‘---it had only been produc tive of dissension.' Every Gentleman, when speak ing of the Constitution of the Country, seemed to consider himself at liberty •to call whatever he thought proper by that name. For his part, he never expressed his opinions of the Constitution of the Country, but he was ready to give chapter and verse of.the laws of the land, to prove with what propriety. he did so. . • To put a stop to that torrent of epithets which Gentlemen in the heat of their eloquence were ;111r. to bestow on those who felt with him the necessity of a refor t m, and clear up all.aMbigUity; he would come down to the House to-morrow, and mote a Resolution, " That the Howie should pledge itselt to take into their consi deration, next Session, the grievances of the peo pie, but more especially to consider of bettering their representation. 7 Mr. D..Gtonv explained. , Mr. CI:RWEN said, in giving his vote for the Bill, however it might be changed, he thought he acted consistent with the resolution •he originally express ed;„ He was anxious to spew the people that Par liament were not wholly averse, to doing away the evils which might Wye crept into their representa tion. He thought it his duty to support the Bill, though it might not, be effi , ient to (to all the goOd Ire could wish. He had wished for the assistance of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, being 'convinced that greater talents than his ,own were re quisite to reduce such a measure to practice. He was obliged to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the assistance he 'had afforded him, and sorry that the imputation of his endeavouring to , creen. cop.: ruption on the part of Government hail been thrown out against him. Should it pass in another Session, he would pursue .the subject further, by moving that the provisions under the Grenville Ael shouid bp referred to a Commiktee, In consider of further means of preventing abuses in the disposal of seats in Parliament. Mr, Wmpttritx said he formerly opposet it, at h e denied t tai. assmniaan on which it was grounded, objec.ted to the reasonitigi that accompi.nied it, :qui still more heCanst. it afforded an rpening to what was called a PArliamentary,Reform. He now. op. Osed it though its principle_was quite changed, .as to pass such a 13111, he thought, would be an in L ,l t to the country. Our Constitution might stand Iti need of some operation, but weri.! that opetation porfortned by a butcher' instead of a surgeon, a wound might be inflicted he feared.that would never heal. Alter some observations on Reform and Re formers, he said he was much astotit.hed that hi s Honourable Friend was not the first to oppose his own Bill, as the Honourable Baronet had seemed to °spe d. Halt a loaf, it was said, would be better 'than no bread at all ; but Italia Reform was no fling without a whole one. If a man with a beard. of - a . month's growth; should have it but half take 4 oft what would he be the better for iti or, having two frightful mustachios on his face, should a barber say, " Fcannot, fake them both aff, but I will re- Movu one .What,aavantage could the man hope from submitting to theoperation. The people would not take such Brumma.gern counters for 400 cl gui neas. Tie hoped the House would not attempt to 011- the people by prat"Osingisliicn: r ei bee h 6ac ch fleat: I world be as ridiculous as the ' con do` of our mo dero patriots, o n o o f whom stin ts i tig he ptn-tte wit 4 prgved o f sav i ng nn t elevsu millions anda`halt anuolly t by a Ta l li a , nnleev'el'lvat.bYccontueol6iritiliagrtyilen ' a t n i y tP s te u 4 ch tl i l r a eanlaiuujose would some further remarks expressed with .his wont humour, the Hon. Gentleman concluded by oppot• ing the Bill. " The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHPACER felt extreme surprise that the Gentlemen who in former stages of this Bill professed themselves its supporters, should now evince - a disapprobation of it as not tending to -efFea what they had first in view. In this particu lar, the charaaer imputed, to it in its present state was an extremely unjust one • and the Honourable Gentleman who fi rst introduc ed it, however he may feel disappointed in not-carrying all his objea into: ,effea, yet a&ed with perfect consistency in assent ing to it even in its present shape. What some Gentlemen had said as to its,not being adequate to the suppression of what was intended by the Hon. • Gentleman, he did not really comprehend. What ever imputations may be cast upon him (Mr. Per— ceval) for the alterations be had made, certain it - was, that other Honourable. Gentlemen very much exposed themselves to censure, by taking that turn which in the present instance they did. He would ask, did not the preamble in its declaratory part make those matters clear respecting the bribery laws, on which, among considerable authorities hitherto, there hid been considerable Variance ? The Hon. Gentleman opposite had, with peculiar candour, allowed the difficulty of framing an oath consistent ly to be proposed to a person of honour and integrity; this had been a strong objection, and it was from considering the difficulty of providing such au each that he had rejected the Proposition to. that eiretaf --4 Upon the remaining point of contest, namely, the express contract, he (Mr. Perceval) had not endea voured to amuse by holdieg out the expedition of a specific remedy on that head. He sheald deny what bad been said of his ceding to tiopidar clamour, which, even if be had gone the full length of Con curring with the Bill in its original form, he Was convinced he could not gratify. • Upon the whole, he saw no reason to rejeet this Bill ; and if he felt. nay regret in the business, it was at not being able to convince the Hon. Gentliman (Mr. curwen) that the clauses which be adopted were such only as could be recommended consistent with the security of Parliament. .1 :ed Mr. TIERNEY wished to ask, if the imputation made by the Right Hon. Gentleman would nor, upon dispassionate consideration, revert to the quar ter whence it came ? When this measure had first been brought forward, he had hailed it as °neafa vourable promise, and would venutre to say he had not absented himself upon any stage of its discus. sion. But in its present state he found it so mini lated and debased, as to hope that the House would not give its assent.to a most treacherous and bare faced delusion. In the first clause of the Bill, as in; troduced by his Henourable Friend, the giver and taker were placed on a complete equality; in the present Bill not a syllable of that clause survived and all that was given in exchange ter it w is w hit p o nce, A new preamble, which was not worth six its spirit being done away by the enaaments wlticn accompanied it. The public opinion should 0 7r ; speOed, and the House should retied, that WI? a _ that undefined thing, the character, came before tribunal, in what a lamentable point of view it wi ll now appear. The Bill had its origin in the dcclar Lion made by h oth sides of the House, that oop in Parliament bad been sold ; but the inornent it will committed, then came the trial of sincerity, for then the oath, the penalty and the offence originally cor tamed In it, were all thrown out. In' fact, the RV Hon. Gentleman had shrunk from the considetitton of the Bribery Att, and turned hue complete jest the efforts for securing the purity of ParllP inent; He would :deny the difficulty - of framing sa oath for the elected; it may be'clune if the Hop; 'Gentleman put his preamble l th roug h t h e stat ute o f Geo. 11. where he would find such.'an oath. Ng difficulty could arise, and mutates mutandis. the, Oa: tors and the eleeled may •tt equally bound. Bat here there was too evidently a , design to hold the shield ever Members, to prevent whom from Ptl i f l e , chasing seats in Parli ament, i t was i mposi bl e cot , ' be intention ot the Right Hon. Gentleman. charge had been made in the principal, which he Pr!: fessed himself hitherto to defend, he felt it his t:I4V now to alter his vote. Bill II 11 Mr. WILTAERFQIICR said, 'that if this Bill S a 14 ` pass, it wouid stand in.the way of a much [Elver' vantageous measure. Strangers b ein g exc l u d e d , the liatm divided upon the third reading of the Bill. Ayes Noes . . 8 , , - 1 3 1) , hiajoritf for third reading —l 5 11. Ast The next division WAS upon the questiotl " 13111 do now. pass." Ayes Noes - - 85 Majority for Passi ng - . —l2 tbe On n stp,sequent dMsion upon the 00 numbers welt.. : for the preleilt 131 Againht it , . 28 t Mal , city fur it . , 04 The of her Orders of the Day being d't s P° 5 the House adjourned at 11811-pAst One. MAILS ttri ard Ala.tvao--t Cattetiburgh. I . DubHa, ' " Warn rd. Oi STOCKS 6‘, TIISS DAY AT TrILLVIL O'cLuCt• 67i Red. Ann. .. I TUE SU ° - . ,1 SOLIM puts Ncias sActum 01 ,Vr!,l4 TUESDAY ; 4NUIND'i . Yesterday lia . .. h ins ° mbqro P a p er s to ti.e 4t- co strived. They con, aita, we are hotri t° Vll° ol lol lrmation of the account f"t he death Pf t h° g I) of Colonel SCHILL. His 'death will th r ow A 3 ''' lrTl ot 4,0 the cause which he so gallantly soppoo'd; „di 0 :I hitli 1 - ( Nit that a L ea d er wort hy to sod a— 3 01 a fhhad. The Supplement to the Prag !, e o (i. th e 1) ,., / 31'. the 2 7th, Contaitri the Aubtrio Pall e " - ' l , l ,f o re v -I !lea of the 21%t and 22(1, 1 *Itich oi.o Ijid : °sit ° Readers a f ew d _ays ago. :some o f she Ligt 0, Writes have asserted that that Bvile' il /c.'3s