The Sun. — London, England, 1809-05-10 00:00:00

• ss it was declared none .such be sentt - wlthout tt specific call from a central .lunta . . - The Noble LOrd • was cn;reCt with' regard to the second promise he mentionet,te that the assistance to Spain should be of the kind Most ogreeable to her - wishes . ;. Thii pro ' coke had beep given, and most panClually and *veva rlably observed. As for the third promisei• that the aperatious shouldbe.direaedto British objeas, here the Noble LOrd 'Was again wrong. In the statement be (Mr. C.) had the honour to make to the House, ' he-had declared Abet the considgration of British in terests would be postponed, and their only interests would be the. interests, of Spain ; that the wishes of 'Spain shpuld be their rule of condal; and that of Spain the profit and advantage sbotild.be exclusively considered. (Here Lord Temple signified that this was his understanding of the point.)—lf that was the sense in which the Noble Lord understood the British interest was promised _to be pursued, on what . I plea then could he now "say that Ministers had for-; felted their interest at Ferrol ? It was for Spain, not fi r 'the British Government, to decide on Ahat sub jet% These two things we were supposed to die , . ' claim ; the separation of the colonies from the mo- then country was. not to be thought of ; and we abjured the idea of stealing ships either under the preten2e Of placing them in safety, of restotiug them to the lawful SoVereign of Spain), 'of keeping them, ,for the use of the Spanish people, or under any other' excuse. Having refreshed the 'recolleaion of the Noble Lord on both these .00ihts, he should proceed to consider the justice of the accusation made by the Noble Lord ai connected with them. The sun) of the Noble Lerd'S observation Nyai this, that his Ma . - jesty's Government - set nut upon the principle of res .cning Spain from the oppression of France, and •therefige that an indictment laid against them for not Ataving brought away the Fleet from I.errol. He'savy the view. whichlhe Noble Lord took. of the subjeCt. • The Noble Lord would have been willing . t.t, have had.lol the varnish of generosity in the first instance, and all the profits of the seizure in the last. - In the first instance the Noble Lord 'would have ntaintaioed,tbe high charaEter of the country; in the . last he would have availed himself of pillage, when the interest of the country appeared to dernand The Noble Lord haying contended that it was bad to send an army to Spain, and they the - conduCt Of that army in Spain was also bad, maintained, that it was worse 061 t 9 aggravate the mischief which heThad denotinced by refraining from bringing away the Ferrol Fleet. To have brought away this Fleet Might' have been justifiable, had the behaviour Great Britain towards Spain originated on other prin.- eiples 'man those,on which it did originate. 'lt Was perfeelly true, that in the contest between Spain and. her oppressor, Great Britain was not originally. bonnet to defend the former. 'fie British GoVern , toe,t might have said to the Spanish Naiion, " No-you have been the vassals of Frence, you love tilled thecoffers . of France, you have nerved the arm of France against Great Britain. We al ways tale you that the time would come when, in common with other nations of Europe, -you, would be punished for your comfit& ; and we rejoice that that petiod . has arrived. What have you done to etlith. , you to onr aid ? We have a right to take ad vantigeof( your destrultion : and' while. France is • shaking you to dissolution, we have a right to pick up ynir sciote.red limbs, and Hutto them to our ent, . vire." Thom was the lanknage which,,in conformity tea the prattice-of nations, .and in conformity to the . • principles of justice, might have been held towardi ; Spain but fortunately for the credit, and for ihe rear interests of dna country, other sentiments pre veiled. In adopting the'universal feeling of the na- I lee, the 13►itish Government'shared in .the universel leetlng of the nation,' and haring once aCted upon the principles of liberality, it was indispensable that 'theircoudat should be tried throughout upon the 'same principles. 13 , 8 suppose the Noble Lord were to answer''' Yes ; I allow t hatyou ought'not to have. done any thing viplently . to hurt the feelings of the Spanish nation •, but •L contend that you ought to' , Live itutde iit , rll an iMpressien on the Spanish Go c.ll ;IN:kit as would have induced them to permit you to do that which your, mutual interests required."— in the first place, what' ss as the ultimate interest of hoth ~T.„toriespn this point could not yet be said to determined. The period had :Oat arrived for the . Govermuent to call for an examination into their conduct, to decide whether Or not they had a•Acd uv4dy, .end Vaught the great contest in which 'they inn] engaged to a happy terrnieation': When' hat time should, come, and tile whole of cont., dna of his Majesty's Government should, be before. Parliament an ,1 the public, he trusted the result ould prove, that they had coni.ulted the real interest theiCeoutitry.. Ir , was. material to distinguish . the period, when a Govgrnment," having terminated a cottrsi.• of operations, laid its condua open, and called for decision upon it from the, period when it' was attempted to obtain a forestalled decision upon cOndukt, at what might almost be,Called the coat itAlicetueut of its cowrie of operations. it could not he expeaed that a Government should_ be ena bled, to use the words of 'Addison, " 'lb crowd an Iliactinto one campaign."' It waa a statement founded.upon Parli'airientary prin .ciple and usage; that a case voluntarily offered for examination must be .differently considered from a ease the premature examination of which was de mended. The Noble Lord, however, fixing him self particularly on this subje& of Ferrol, had quoted dates without any due observance of places: He had stated it to bet absurd, that while the Beet was tint secured from the French at Ferrol, at that very time a treaty was aigninc , in London fur keeping t hem oilt,vf the power of The French. The same f:P110 1 61011 of time and 'place' prevailed through the .I.:Obte Lord's_speech. The Noble Lord had asked, svhy. his. Noble Friend had, on the 14th .of Novem ber, written instruaions to General Moore to take toe course which he ,in, fad pu the identical day adopted ? This certainly was not prescience on the lart. of lila Noble Friend, because it was a know edoe of 'something contemporaneous.; but surely is.. Was no impeachtnent of the discernment at a Go.i. verittnent, Una it provided at home for that which fit the very same instant Waft taking place abroad,— When the Noble Lord had given his notice of the . present motion, he had promised that a: great part of his industry and eloquence sheuld be emPloied ou the treaty conchlded between Great ,Britain and Spain ; PI) which treaty, however, the ,Noble Lord had contented himself fuss h making a' single observe tion. This phservation prOceeded on' the principle that the .N'tphltt Lord condemned. the ..provisions only to,: iirobable and . contingent cases: But it should be Considered-that it was intended to take s eempeeherisive view of thejnterests of the two coun tries. Tne period was not fevoierable for negociat ing an instrument so - extensiveas that -must haVe been. It would not have been fair to Spain, for either Great Britain Must have conceded.gratuitously to"Spoin, or she must have, asked in return what Spain had not at that time the.power to give. Still, however, connected as the two countries were, was it not right that there should be I recorded document of that connection ? The relations of Great Britain to Spain were meliorated by this document. She was before bound to an -indefinite extent to, assist Spain, and to a definite extent to abstein from de manding a remuneration.. It became absolutely necessary, with a view to our own interest, in some degree to define the principle of the cnnneaion be- . tween theewo countries. When the—be. did not 'know what :to call it--.a revolution, he thanked God, it was net—an insurreaion it certainly Was not,_ for it was against no legitimate authority; but on the glorious breaking Out in Spain cif the deter mination-to resist French oppression, a British Order in Council ww - issued, declaring peace established between. the two countries," wed preventing any forther captures front the' Spaniards. He belieVed that every man iii the cons try felt thii to be a wise, just, and honourable act. 'But at the same time the,. British Government had a right to say,' that this abstinence from captures must be reciprocal. No thing•was more fit for them to ask, nor More WO: nourable. for Si-min to - grant. Was this Concession nugatory ? The fa& ions singtilar, that the only two cases of -capture which had occurred, were captures made by Spain from Groat - Britain. To proceed with' the coesideration of the Ti eaty, the articles by which. Great Britain was bound ti ace knowledge Ferdinand VII. or any subsequent leg', timate Sovereign.of Spain, had been idly supposed . to bind her to carry .on the' war• for Ferdinand VII, ' or still more strongly to acknowledge Joseph Bona parte, should he become a successful Usurper. The Only obje& of 04 article in qpetstien was the pcsi• Bible case of the, extinedion of the present Royal' Branch of Spain, in which case it might* beconae a doubt, in consequence of the Salique Law, whether the Neapolitan Branch, or the Princes of Brazil shouldascend .t he throne. It was not for this coun e try to decide such a point, and it was therefore fee, this country to provide against ,the contingency of making the eletlion; The nest article iu the Treaty was that by whitli Spain engaged to taker precautions that her fleet should not fall into the hands of the enemy, and by which Great Britain engaged to assist her inithat object. Amidst 'all that Spain had felt; the Spaniards had never been disposed to admit the, British into their naval arsenals.' .The offer lied naore than' once been made by Great Britain, but in eenforinay to tlto principles s u which the Govern= meneaet OUt, never in ,a tone of coercion. ,It had been 4clined.; and that refusal had been received by Uovernmept, not . with ill humour; with great res . gtet, but with 'a just deference to the iodgmene of those,; from whom .it proceeded; It was held by the Spanish Government, diet standing' es they did on the bash of public opinion, \ they might; by the ad- mission of the British into their ports, have given occasion eto the common enemy to say, that' the English,: according to' their usual practice, were availing themselves of the distressed state of Spain to seize the Spanish Navy, eft was on this ground frankly stated. by the Spanish Government as likely to mislead many of , their countrymen, that they declined an offer in which they allowed thee did not see any thing dangerous or dishpnourable; But a much more importantconsideration than even the 'principleson•winch 'instrument was Imitated, was the relative situation in which the events at the close of the last campaign l eft the two countries.--- He woold not enter into a critical examination of ivery.military movement of the last campaign.---- Such a retrospect would be'very peinful. But it was necessary, atel would be hisduty to follow the . Noble Lerd when 'he ettiabuted a part of the eam peign (which he beliessed the Noble Lord consider ad ta have been miecondated, but which he him self did not think had been nriseenduCted) narto the free will of the General 'who Commanded; hitt to the improper interference of his Majesty's Mi nireere in. Spain. This , was a, question which it won't) be difficult completely to decide, it both the individuals who were concerned in it were Members of that Home,. and if fortunstely both were alive, Capable of steting the fads, to Perliament, and of renderieg farther service to their country. it 'Was distresaing.to come to the discussion ender the diffi culties which existei 'upon it. When the individual, in whose defence it was•probabl . y iiepeeted he shook! speak, though Alvin, was not present, and when the other individual, for whose memory he enter. tamed the higheet respe&, was no mere,' he would freely acknowledge, that even if the error imputed were an error of great magnitude; the battle of co , -. rutnia ought to obliterate it ; but ,he imputed no such error.: He would say, that on a fair :etamination Of the evidence, with as .muth 'impartiality' as he. could assuale, and on a free comparison of his own sentiments, with those of others, he believed in his conscience, that the f , of Sir jehn Moores ad;. vance (80,,tunCh.condenined by. the Noble Lord) be ingntributable.to.the interference of Mr. Frere, was not true. If he thought otherwise; he should by tip means be disposed to shield. Mr. Frere froM the .ie eponsibility of ; fiat - considering the advance iu a military point of view, in his poor judgment he could not hoc think it a wise measure ; but in' eVery vie* which ennobled. military objeds he . wag sure it was a wise measure:; So far therefore from shielding Mr. Fret& from the responsibility attached to this fore ward movement, he should :rather hail it for him.. BUt. truth compelled-him to declare that' although he did Hot . think it a blamable measure, the merit of it was mot Mf. Frere's. Of this he was con vinced, that it the gallant General, whose losi 'the country had to regret,- was present to state his own case, the House would never have heard froM. him one 'word of the tendency Of. the "Noble Lord's ob.; , servations. To this' convitlion he hail not brOught his mind on LOA groupds.' It was tounded on the fati, that Sir J; Moore had not transmitted his - Ore respOndcnce with. Mr. Frere tcl Government; I)id the Noble Lord mean to attribute to Sir 3; Metal., 1 . 44 having Made a moyeniPnt, by which the exist ence of the British 'army was endangered, he .with held from Government-Tiny knowledge of the too tires on which he had adcd This' would' be to peter a actions charge against tint gallant Officer, who he dared nay had never been watitiet in his duty ; but who would , :have been wanting to 14 duty had. he so misdated himself. „i So much for that view of the sebjeC4 •ILT which the pUblic was Materially concerned, The rest was bet Ween indi viduai and individual ; and - he confessed that be did not think the time of the House -properly em ployed, or the feelings "of the House properly ex cited, whet) such a transadion was made theSubjed of their discussion. It was not a useful employ ment for Parliament, and he trusted'that there was no man to whom theagitetion of such a question druid be a matter oldelight. He had been taunted the other day ss if his private regard Was to proted a public offender. He hoped he should never assume such a privilege.. His. private regard would induce him to speak a few worki upon the subje&. but his public duty would induce him tomeke those as few as possible. He. bad -no hesitation in saving, that. there were parts of Mr. Frere's correspondence which he did not like. There were parts which he did not -approve, and of which he hid not advised his Sovereign to express his approbation. The spe erfi point to whin') he alluded was the demand made by Mr. Frere, that the individual by whom the letter froth tlie Junta of Madrid was conveyed to Sir J. Moore should be examined before a Council of 'War. His opinion was, that it. was Mr. Freres duty to convey to the General every information 'in his power ; to transmit to him the communications of the various local Governments ; to accompany those communications with his own honest. opinion of their value ; and to enforce that opinion with the ,best arguments that occurred to hiM ; but there be conceived:l hat his province ended, and that- he, ought not to prescribe that which depended on e military decisien. He hoped, however, he might be allow ed to, say -in extenuation---he could not affirm it, for he had not the means of information, but probably Mr. Freres letter was not ,written in the sense in %%inch it wai.taken by Sir John Nitwit , . It was no unusual Thing for a Minister in a foreign coentryao transmit itiformation to 'a General, and to recorn ' mend to him an examination before a Council of War, as the best niode by which suspicious intelli gence might be deterred.' This led, him to a circumstance on which. great stress had been namely, the character of the „ Gendernan by whom Mr. Frere's letter had been "convey. eci to Sir John Moore. Of this Gentleman' be knew nothing ; he had never seen hith ; he did not believe that Mr. Frere had 'seen him before this transaction ; he had not been selected by Mr. Frere for the purpose of, conveying •informatien , to. Sir John Moore ; be had not been sent out from this country recommended Frere; but he belies!, ed, that,after Mr. Frere went to Spain, Mr. Char, tinily passed through Salamanca ; that he was not . ill received at head-quarters ; and. than having' been at Madrid, he. called on Mr. Frere at Talavera, on his 'way to Salansancti, with 'a Letter from Sir J. Moore to the Jenta at Madrid. Mr. Frere, of course, thought it his duty to forward .Mr. Charmilly to Sir J, Moore,, by every means in his power. With re. spect to the chereder of .Mr, Chant -idly, although he believed that meny of the chaises made in anoe titer place against him were. wholly unfounded ; y et be must observe, tharMr. Frere ban no mere to do with the character of ; Mr. Charmilly then lie would . have had with the charader of le conunon poatman. Mr. Chartnilly was. the bearer of a mesiage from the Junta of Madrid te J, Moore, and Mr. Frew. could by no means be responsible for the selection at the messenger. 43ur whatever might tae thought oo this point, be trusted that there conld be feeling on the seotimeuts expressed Frere, wimp he declared thrTh ae dickeot 4espair of a cause which it war his bounden duty to support and do - , courage. He had before observed that tbeathance . ; of Sir J. Moore (whin edvaisce he deemed, perfealy justifiable) could not be - ascribed to the correspond, telt:6 of 'Mr. Frereavith Sir J.. Moore?, because. Sir J. 'Moore bad not •traOsinitted that coriesponciace I to GoVeinnient as the cause of his movement. But not only 'did Sir" Mooro,' nut transmit his eor respondence wit Mr, as the -groend I f his' advance ' :—he h ascrib Fre ed it w • to other groueds.— In his dispetchesire stated it to be " iii consonance with the general opinion, and also to that of Mr. Frere." On what principle,or. justice Olen could it be said this advance arose solely 'froni the' solicitaa tion of Mr. Frew ? ,With respect to the tone of fyr. Frere's letters, although he .confessed that irl the course of don there appeared something of apparent exasreration, he could yet ,readily conceive, and, any man must 'be, convinced who had read tire ter; which Mr. Deere t3r;esived that they were occae. SiOnally, calculated - to nrottece feelings not of the most pleasant description. Out be had not stated. all ahe grounds for Ids convi4ion, that Sir... John NtOcire'S advanCe was not to be ascribed to ar. I Freres interference. to' to that Advance, Sir John Moore wrote: to his Noble Friend :near him, inclosiog a letter to Marshal Souls, in which he was represented as critically situated, and liable to a snccesful attack. On the information contained in that intercepted letter, air John Moore express ed his determination to -advance. With respect to the advance itselfhe would say, that with all its.con sequences and disasters he preferred it to a retreat, at the Mordent of Mr. Freres remonstrance.. Of those disasters he would not spy a ward, - He would' not charge•any thing. The battle. of Corunna covered every thing, but the retreat itself,, and the preci pitaneY of it he could never cease to regret. .4.s for the edvance Government were not , responsible, so 'Were they not responsible for the subsequent trapi adioni., The only way in which arty responsibi lity could lot a moment appear to anaph to, them, was from the' circumstance of the transports not being at Cbrunna wheirahe British army arrived there; but any one who read Sir John Moore's "' dispatches must be immediately convinced that it was not the. Paula of GOvernment that the trans ports were ,sent to Vigo, and- not to Corunna.— He was fir front wishing to speak of the disasters of war 'as , the sebjed of tiny thing but lamen tation; yet; however deeply he regretted the se vere loss which the 4ritish sustained' at the ter • minatioti of the, Spanish campaign, he could not het consider that termination as, most honourable and advantegeous. to the country. - He hoped be WIN not less sensible than others to .the value of • Military services and military men ; lie hoped ' he did not feel less. admiration than others, who had been in company with our naval and military heroes, of that glory before which all other glory becarne obscured., By the consent of all other ages, acid notwithstanding 'the erguments of philosophy, the military cheralet atood pre,ernineat in th e world. Reverting to the 'state of Spain,' he aikked, whether bee,tu a shelad not yet been able to off the yoke of France; and achieve her liberty, be was therefore to. contidet her Cause...as lost. He trusted that Many efforts would be made ere that melancholy result would ensue. He trusted that by the desultory mode of warfare now adopted, Spaniards - would, ,gradually diminish the forces a their oppressor, and render their country a coo quest which it' woUld be difficult to make,, and which it would be impossible to retain. In . con sistency with the principles hitherto naea ups b 1 the British Government, it was not intended to dic tate to the Spaniards the line of concha& which they ought to pursue, but he trusted it would not be long 'before we should learn that thephacl adopted a, qt. - tern by which the force of France Would 110,turned against herself with.accumulated violenCe. ' Till that period the universal rising in Spain agaihst the scat , tered forces Of . the enemy . might prevent any great advantages being gained by them. These hopes be should. nor have been able to : entertain, 'or endea" your to inspire, bad it nut been tor the eAperiment Under discnssibn ; had, not military aid been atfordeJ to Spain, and that us sget) a mode as to skew that Great Britain felt - au earnest desire to encounter every peril, and to share every danger,. of that: oar , whoie cause she so ‘varinly es 4uscd. . ttirPw Mr. TtERNEY supported. the Motion. ,_ The CHANCELLOR of the Exit cztualsa spoke a ,great length in vindication 'of his Majesty's Mini sters, and contended - that Sir John Moore was under no necessity of following Mr. Frere's advice, farther than it met his own judgment in military matters: that, therefore, the. Gentlemen who professed to advocate his cause, paid him no compliment by Or posing that all the misfortunes in Spain were owiug to the General's following Mr. Frere's advice in plc' ference to his own opinion. " Mr. BATHURST reprobated ,the manner in Which the campaign in Spain had been concluded, 01)( 13t : • tributed its failure to the miscOndua and want 4t concert and arrangement on the part of the Noble ► Lord at the head of the military department: Lord HENRY PETTY spoke also in strong term; against the condua of' Ministers with respea to the late campaign, and imputed to their miscondttet the failure of an enterprise that was so promising in its commencement, and which, if properly condnded, might have been instrumental in unfetteringthe fiber• ties and independence of Europe: This was the more , to be regretted, as it bad been accompanied Iv the WA.. of so much blood, and of not less than eight millions, sterling, and a Joss that could not i so easily,be cam* pensated; the loss of the best General this country. had to. boast of -Mr. WiltrattEAD, speaking on the same side Of • the ,question„ reprcibated the treatment Sir John Moore ldd experienced from MiniSsers, and cep* tended that there was something suspicious in their . &mdtia towards him even previously to his assere 4 ; ing the connand, which, was 'rather the result of accident than of the.ir }4l well rernaindtr, of the Campaign. : . a ' The quetiOn being loudly called for t . the Ho ur,* divided, ' . . . For the mation Against it m ..• ajority Well avtturing the 119 Adjourned at Five 0'094 this morning . ---wool. T 1 - i E sV N. IOL&M UUSI DIVIRS IA . LIUN . AVZ.P.ATI LONDON,. NiqiuNtspAy, MAY 10, 180ik.. It is with the utmost satisfaetion. l that wo annatmco el to ow Reader; the arrival of Prince STAnaabstaVat ''' . , iri Town, as. AmbassadoT from the Court 01 . Visa* His Highness artiyed in London about 12 O'CIOCI‘ this day, and imrnediaiely had an intervieW wiLb CANNANG. He came 'through Holland, an 4 alter moping innumerable dangers, was picked in a Oshingboat by one o our cruizers. The Intel' ligence which he has brought respelling the ()per i l tions in Bavatia, - we are happy to say, differ rood materially frarn, the accounts given the French Bulletins. He says, that the losses sustaino the French in the several actions were quits e' great as tho4e of the Austrians,'and that 03 ISt° as the .5.7.8 th ult. the French were , unable - to sav3ticei having suffered so severely, His Highness high spirits, and by , no means considers tho ad" vantages which the French obtained as ticci s i'l d the fate of the Campaign. He also states, that in I t - ly the Austrians bad obtained some very iroporta 3t advantages, and that the Whole population 0 1 t" Tyrol have risen taa man in favour of Austria. ' This morning arrivedta Gottenburgh Mail, O a ( German Papers to the 29th ult. The contend( °t the former, are not very interesting at -the ro e° moment, and relate to then egociation between th el Swedish and Russian COMmanders fora cessat i°l3 of hostilities relative to • the Island i of Aland,'" The German Papers contain a Proclamationof Y to RLE Archduke CHAS, which we have not roo ni ,: insert this day,..which was issued previous to 11)d estrous contest, and some details respeeting the 0 „,"; litary operations in Bavaria,' which are unfortun air '• superseded by ay the were French enable Bull 4, etins. We in a part of our inn pression, to lay before our Reaciers the substauce,,, the two French Bulletins. We bave this day tra„. fated the whole of the First Bulletin,' but are c°'" ho pelted, by thetength of the Debate, Second till to-morow. •pti kt) postpone.l The Gazetttiol bit night notices the app° l 4 „,esty meet of ROBERT ADAIR, Ell. to b 0 at Ambassador Extraordinary end PlenipotentituY__6o the Sublime Ottoman. Porte; and of S're,s'rruP CANNING, Esq. to- be Secretary of the Pnbas s t' ~ ,o ur tr Lotroom : Printed by R. Vl A akts (or Morn loth Row street), and published by W. A. Scai r " `() Moulton•streetl, at the Sun-Ottice, tra, /". ~