The Sun. — London, England, 1808-05-11 00:00:00

IMPERML PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF PEERS, TUESDAY, MAY 10. The House was employed for a considerable time in hearing Counsel on the Roxbutgb further hearing on Thursday.tact; The Irish Clergy and the Irish Glebe-House Bills, were brought up from the Commons, and read a first time. • The Bills on the table were forwarded in their respe4ive%stages. INSOLVENT TSEBTORS. Lord DERBY presehted Petitions from certain Pri t ' sows t'onfined for debt in the Jails of.Laateaster and Liverpool, praying for relief.—Ordered to lie on the table. . , Lord Iint,LAND also presented similar Petitions from I'ri4oners confined in.the Fleet Prison, and in the Jail of the City of Worcester; His Lordship made a few observations on awl necessity of gt7ound ingrsorne measure, on Petitions of this nature, which pressed upon' the humanity of the House from so many quarters. • The Petitions were ordered to lie on the table. Sveral Accounts were presented from the Trea sury' by Mr. Woodford.—Ordercd to lie on the ta ble. DANISH SHIPS. Lord Sumatra-Ft rose to state the outline of the • motion he intended to - bring forward on Friday next, respecting the fate that awaited the ships, cargoes, and crews, of such Danish ships and vessels as were brought in by force or had come voluntarily into the ports of Great Britain, previous to.any declaration of war against Denmark. He did, so in compliance with the request which the Noble Secretary.(Lord Hawkesbury), and some other Noble Lords, had • made to that effeet. In looking over the Papers on the table, he found that the Danish ships brought in, and that had come in under these Circumstances, had amounted to the number' of about :3 , 40. It was his intention .to follow up the Motion which he should submit to their Lordships, with several Reso lutions' some of Addresses' to his Majesty, to sus pend the proceedings on these'captur,:s, or to pre vent the proceeds of those condetnip:4lfrom being diverted to any purpose before the of. the owners had been heard ; many of whom were 80, tish subjeas ; and also that thexrews ntid passen gers in such ships as had come in voluntarily should be set at liberty wider such conditions as to his Majesty's wisdom should, seem meet,, The other Resohnions have for their objet. to ascertain the opinion of the l'lottse on the waiters of fait he should have the honotir of laying betur~i them. RREVERSIONARY GIZ . Lord I-LvwxesuonY moved the Ordee oitbe Day for the second reading of the Bill to Suspect', for a time to be limited, the power of granting Places In Reversion. In moving that the Bill be noW read. a ' second time, his Lordship said, he should trouble the . House. with bet a few observations. It was no doubt unnecessary to recall to their Lordships' recolleaion the principle and the provisions of the two Bills which, professing somewhat of a similar object, had been brought up from the other House, one of them last, the other in the present Session.' These purpui fed to be grounded on recommendations from the• Throne, and the latter of them' be had himself moved might be allowed to go into a Conunittee, in order thk some of the objections urged against its provisions might be removed,,and the Bill so shaped as to meet their tordohips' approbation, It was no doubt equally unnecessary to say that both Bills had been rejetted by,the House.' The Bill now heibre their Lordships materially differed, both in its principle, the preamble, and its provisions, from tllose that have preceded it. The objea of Ate former Bills was undefined; they• , L.rested on a general propositiiin and no satisfaraery, giound had been adduced why their Lordships should adopt them. The present Bill was narrowed in its opera thin, and instead of going generally to the ,suppres sion dd pfaceet in reversion, it only pioposed to sus . pend, tor a shorter period than. was proposed in the former Bill, the power,of granting such reversions. Whether the power of granting places in 'reversion did not exercise the inthience of the Crown, he should not pow stop to argne. In his individual' opinion, it rather diminished, than ik rased that iufluence. But of the present Bill he might well , say, there appeared but very little neee,sity tOr it. Nothing was More unlikely than that while :lie Cunt. mittee of the other House Was sitting, front whose resolution, at the recommendation.of the Crown, tho present measure originated, Ministers would advise his Majesty to grant tlioreversion olanysuch plac es as the Committee had in their contemplation.. In propoAng, however, to suspend the powers of thel;row n in this respect, a distinction,he.thought thould be ken between suspendiog-that powet al together, and allowing it to be exercised under cer tain cirettmstaeces r and with a certain distinctiom . it was now proposed only to suspend it for a very 'bhort period, and merely to Miami; time to the Corn mittee of the other House so far . to prosecute their inquiries* as to enable them to state what was .likely to be the ultimate result,of these inquiries, Tinder that supposition, he hoped there would be ,no oh jection to the second readidg of the Bill. Lord ttroesust.a could not refrain from renew ing his objections to the Bill. The alterations made in its preamble' and provisions were by no tileanS of o nature to render it less objectionable to his eyes on the contrary, they added weight to every obiec.; • lion he before entertained against the Measure.— Conneaing the obje& ,of the present -Bill with the rumours that were in circulation respe&ing the fur t her obje.ati which the framers of. it bad, in view, he • could not but consider it as the first attempt at re forms which, if not seasonably rejected, must end in the subversion of the Constitution. What were the grounds Offered to their Lordships for acceding to the measure ).• Why, that the other House of rarliAment were occupied in inquiries into what re forms they might think it expedient to make; and "without informing their Lordshiplrof the precise na ture of those reforms, or of the extent to which it was intended to carry them, their Lordships : were called upon to assent to the present Bill. ,I - fe must warn their Lordships, that if they did assent to it, they would destroy the balance which upheld the Constitution ; their own privileges anti power would go 'with the prerogatives of the Crown ;' the House of Commons must get possession of tw i ny power, and thus the Constitution of ing, 1..6tbd3, and Commoill, must sink into a Republi . c.. This was an experiment, to try the resolntion of. their I..ordships4 Pat he trusted.thuflouse would manifest their firmne s s, and resist it. • lle at least would take this opportunity of entering his protest against it, as pregnant with the most mischievous consequences. Lord Gaosv RNOR,did not .rise to.defend the House of Commaes; lot' , in the present instance he was — Coffiiiiiced 014 Ifad'aeled in the s moSt COns*tienal manner. The }present 11111 fell altogether short of his expalations, and in his opinion it must prove ,wholly inefleetual. It was his wish that the House `should have adopted 'it in its origin's! form ; but soOner than no :step whatever should. be talien to answer the: expeaations of the people, he would support the Bill, inefficient as it was. The House must be sensible how heavy' was the load of taxes, and how severe the sacrifices under which the coun try was now labouring; they must also be sensible how forcibly the people had expressed their opinion of the necessity of such a measure, avid how una nimous was the expression of that Opinion in the metropolis and, elsewhere. What unpopularity, therefore, and , indignation must attend its rejection, especially when all eudy so frittered down in its op&, ration; in order to meet the wishes of that House. He was really at a loss to conceive upon whSt grounds it could be fairly opposed ; and he sincerely belieVed, that its. opposers wuuld not avow their real motives, which he feared much had tar their main object the fru•tration of every attempt to re form abuses. He had heard a Noble Lor.l (Moira), on .a former occasion, endeavouring "to defend these abuses, on the grim(' that they had long existed, as if the antiquity of an abuse Was a reason to justify its continuance. Sneh reasons should have no Weight,with him, ,and he would entreat their Lord. ships not to incur the odium which the 6061i0n of the present 'Bill cannot fait to excite. Lord Motu a defended , himself against the impu tation of, being a supporter of such systems- of abuse as,the Noble Earl had allUded to. He believed, that neither for himself, nor for any persciti connect ed with him, had Ire ever solicited any of the 'good things arising from what the Noble Earl thought proper to style abuses. But the 'Noble Earl should recellet- f i, that he merely assumed be question, and had offered no argument whatever in Support of his assomption. The Noble Lord then recurred to the 'reasons he had stated on a former occasion against .the adoption of the Bill ; the power of which it would 'deprive the Country, was a pbWer held by the Crown, nut for the:Wen:4on of its 'own in fluence, but for the bene fi t of the peeple; and with that intention had the Constitution intrusted it to the Crowne The Bill did not tend to any real radi i cal'reform that would alleviate the burthens of the I people. It was Merely a delusion ; a tub to the I whale ;- and meant perhaps only to divert their at- Itention from those _plans which aggravated the real burthens._ under which the people groaned, and which the framers of this,Bill had adopted, as spe cious measures of finance. He did not fear that kind of unpopularity with which the Noble Earl had threatened the House. They would have to expe42 the real indignation of the. Country, who attempted to dehide them by such measures as the present ; and that indignation 'would, no doubt, burst forth as soon aS the people discovered the thlusioe that WAS, now promising upon thou'. Lord MORTON argued on the an side with Lord BEDESDALR, and warned the Ilouse of the insidi. ous. attempts that were making to undermine their order, and their weight and influence in the ,State. Lord kat,enwry observed, that it was unnece‘sary for him , to made any reply to the Nobic and Ltarn ed Lord (Redesdale) or the Noble Lord who had just sat down, The speech of his Noble Friend near him (Lord Moira) had completely answered the Noble and Learned LON 4 for though they both were adverse to the Bill, the arguments adduced by both against it were as different, nay, as opposite as could possibly be imagined. The Noble. and, Learned Lord contended; that . the was the be ginping of reforms, that must end in the ruin of the constitution. His , Noble Friend, an the other band asserted, that it would ' not be produCtive of reform at all, and would only mock the people with a shadow of reform, while their real grievances pressed upon them as IteA‘;'y as ever. Indeed the far from being such as he could wish it to - be, lie should, however, supportit, and . hail it as a com plete vi6lory and triumph, not over any abuses it professed, to.correer, but over that unavowed junto, that secret influence, which had so frequently been fatally exerted during the present reign, - and which always'displayed its ailivity in frustrating every, mea sure intended ter the benefit of the people. God turbid that Ministers, in giving their suppo r t to th e present Bill; should .do so from any compr om i se with that junto that would prove injurious to the claims of a large portion of his Majesty's subjects in another Kingdom. He had Iris fears on this subjeet , when be observed how certain Noble Lords con ducted themselves on the present oct,losion. Nothing, however, should induce him.tollatard the J)assing of the Bill, by proposing any amendment to it ; as he'valued more the vii ory the passing of it would be attended with, than the result of any amendniant he could possibly.get acceded to. Lard Somans joined in exulting in the viCtory now obtained over that secret influence which had so often proved pernicious to the country, and against which he hoped he should ever raise his voice, as he now did. The question was now 'generally called for, and the motion tot the second reading was agreed to without a division, and the Bill ordered to be com mitted to-morrow.—Adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY S MAY 10. G RAMPOUND. Mr. MATTIMW MONTAGUE( ' the Chairman of the Committee appointed to take into'consideration the Petitions complaining eat the dduble return to; Gram" pound, reported that the right of Eleaion was vest ed in the Mayor and Burgesses, resident and non resident ; that none of the Members whose names were inserted in the double return, were duly elea ed ; but that the Petitioners, the Hon. G: rl, ,Coeh• ratie, and ‘V. Holines, Esq. were duly eleded, and ought to have been returned. ' • .. The Deputy Clerk of the Crown was ordered to attend, and did attend to amend the return: On the 'Motion of c. W, WY.NNE, the fur. the: consideration of the report of the Lunatics Bill was, postponed to Thiirsday. The Militia Pay Bill, the Irish .Militia- Pay Bill, and the Militia Adjutants' Bil> v were read.a third time and passed. • Mr. Busicissom presented an Account of'ttll. the Additions that had been made to the Annual Charges of the Public Debt.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. WU/4417'0N brought__up_ RQpon..Qf C6niniittee on'the Liceaces • which was agreed to, and a Bill ordered accordingly. MESSAGE FROM HIS MAJESTY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought down a Message from the King, which was read by the 'Speaker, and which was in substance as fol lows , . • GEORGE R. " His Majesty finds it necessary to state to the House of Commons, that in consequence of the disastrous defeat of the Prussian arms in Augitst 1806, attended with the'melan.- dully death of the then reigning Duke of firunsWick, and'the' subsequent occupation of his territory by the enemy, His . Ma jesty's Sister, the widow of that illustrious Prince, was corn. pelted to seek an asylum in his Majesty's dominions. • ima madiately on her arrival, an, establishment was provided for her by his Majesty, .suited to her high rank; to the misfortunes which 'she had experienced, and to the ten der ;illation which his Majesty entertained for 'her. The expenses of, this establishment were defrayed out of the Civil List, ant consequently no provision • exists for rendering it permanent ; his Majesty therefore recohitrierids it to the House to take the subject' into their consideration ; and his Majesty relies on the loyalty and affection of his faithful Commons, that they will make a provision by . whlch 'his Majesty may be enabled to gratify his peksenal in a case in which they are so deeply interested." On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CIMQUBI:, his Majesty's most gracious Message was reiered to the Committee of Supjily. • • SIR HOME POPHAM% Mr. LUSI“NGTON, after observing that he under stood no objection would be made to the produCtionr of the Paper, moved, "That there be laid before the House, a Copy, of the Proceedings in the Coen of King's Bench, in the cause of Paxton and Others versus Cochrane and others. Sir Home POPIJANI Jose,. and addressed the • House in a very low tone of voice, for which lie apo logised by observing; that he had long been confined by a serious inflammation in his lungs; from the ef feets of whiCh he had scarcely yet recovered. - Un derstanding, however, that, the Honourable . - Gen tleman opposite was anxious to' have a decision on his Motion,. to which decision the House did titot think •they could consistently come . in his (Sir Home Popham's) absence, ho bad waved all per sonal considerations, deeming his attendance' a paramount duty, and relying on the liberal r"its- dulgence of 'the House , if the indispoSition der which he laboured prevented his - being as audible as be would wish to be. To the pro dudion of the Paper ,for which the Honourable Gentleman bad moved, he Shad no , sort of objec tion, although it related exclusively - to a private transaction between Mr. McArthur, himself, and the house of Paxton and'Co. All the Poison which it was possible to extred trout that record, had already been:disseminated through the Mouse, and through:, the Country, with wonderful adivity and success; he was anxious therefore' to offer what he trusted the Hulls° ,woald.conSider as an antidote to that poison. To do thin , , -however, he -must necessarily impose upon the House a brief relation of the circumstances of the case. About twenty.yeera ago (and God knew that it was a long time to retrace. a privatearansac tion) it Was proposedaa to join in:a speeurati:on with Mr. McArthur., ,The whole management of ' the concern was left to that 'Gentleman; - and as there were many Members of that House ; Who were acquainted with his judgment and integrity,. be bad 'no doubt they would' agree with him, that it could not be placed in better hands: - He would nut trouble the House with a detail - Of the intercourse which had taken place •between' Mr.M'Axthur and Messrs: Paxtons, or thelittle'COM , ' municatiou between those "Gentlemen etidliiiiisell7 but on Mr. .'Arthur's writing to hitn„in January lest, that the cause was immediately to,cotneeane he , pressed MessiS, Vaxtona to postpene it a:stiort time, and allow him to try asset get it brought to an amicable FroM a - conviction that there ought,to be mutual concessinns, he tepeeted his solicitations, though .I.v ithoucsuccess., -11 e-then sent ferd4ie-aolia,- eitor, to •whotn. he communicated all these eircuin-• stances; and, as he was acquainted with the partied, that, Gentleman undertook to impress upon their 'mind, that the mode which he; (Sir home Pop ham) Lad propoied„ was ihe , .best for them to,adont.•, At this moment the Honourable Gentleman brought forward the subjeCt of the Etrusco,: . Soed after this the proceeding instituted by Jr. McArthur's Solicitor was explained to him, and till then, lie as sured the House, uponbis Most sacred honour, he'was totally ignorant of the nature of it, as he had never, had any .communication diredly or indire&ly with Mr. McArthur, or his Solicitor, on the. legal manage ment of the case ; and he trusted the, House would allow him to record his vindication on the subject of ,that plea, and his abjuration of all moral guilt which might be conceived to attach to it, by reading the positive declaration of the Gentlemen in question. He hoWever, understood that many cases might, exist, where a plea of legality might be most honourably interposed, and this probably was-one. The Hots. Captain here read'a letter recently addressed to him by Mr. M'Arthur. It stated, that Mr. McArthur enclosed the instructions given byhis Solicitor to the Counsel (founded on the Solicitor's own judgment), for drawing up the pleas in the action brought against them by Messrs. Paxtons and Company,' atter the latter hied declined all amicable adjustment ; that the Solicitor was ready, when called upon, to make an affidavit before 'any Court of Justice that ,he had no intercourse with Sir Home Popham, , diredly or indirediy, on the subject of the plea on record ; and that-Mr. McArthur was prepared to make an affirmation, to the same effect; adding, how ever, that he could' not understand how a case sub jadice could be argued in the House of Commons. 'Having finished the ;otter, the Hon.. Captain pro ceeded to observe, that he could not but think it very extraordinary that the Hon. Gent. opposite, instead of stating a case upon the Vienna, and on a previous voyage, should not have stated a case direly in point with respeCt to the Etrusco, the ship and voy age immediately in discussion; where his agents in sured 00,0001. and on the Ship being captured, the Underwriters successively resisted payment, AD tl:* sole plea of illegality ; upon which' plea theievet. withheld the premiums they had received. This %vs:, a case more direaly in point than Paxton's rccard; not, indeed, of a plea of illegality set up by him, but in which it bad been set up against him, to the lo s s of upwards of 60,0001. in the very Concern which had been brought under .discussion. From this it • sslZlLtst-appeaLsevisialate-amysiw-atiy -matterin which he was implicated, the distinaions of law and ho. DOW* were to vary so as to be made sUbservient to contradictory purposes; If the law was on his side, it was to be superseded by the most tefined feelings of honour; and vice versa k 'when law was against him, and honour for him, in the common acceptas tion of the term, then- honour was to lie dormant, and law was to operate in its fullest force. Mr. LUSHINGTON said a few word's with regard to the circumstance mentioned by the Hon. Captain re speding the 60,0001. insured by.his agents. This' was the first time that circumoance had come , to his knowledge. 'His object in ; moviog fOr the - record was to shew that an illegal transaction had beea committed in a previous voyage by the Hon. Cap tale, and thus to. prove that the prance of illegal trading had been. followed up by him. He assured the Honourable Captain, that as far as he was ac quainted with she subject, lie considered him equally concerned with Mr. MiArthur% It was extraordin ary, that where honour and character were so much insisted upon; such a plea of illegality had - been set up. It was certainly net his intention :... to search into the private history of the Honours A able Captain, but he Unquestionably meant to show, ,14' that the grant that had been made to him was in violation of nll usage on the subjeCt, and that the memorial presented by the Hon.. Captain (on which the grant was foUnded) contained statements not strictly correa, and ditfcring completely frown the plea that had been 30. t tip in another place- Sir Home PoPtIAM observed, that notwithstands ing what the. Hen.. Gentleman had just said, he was informed, on indisputable authority, that a great many cases might occur irrwhich a plea of illegality might be most honourably interposed. In sispposing this to tie - one, he might be in error; but if the House considered it of Consequence;the Hon. Geo' tlettinn had better propose a CoMmittee to investigate the merits of the case. If be understood the osar ing of the- Hon. Gentleman's motion, it was to impress the House with 'the conviction that he had contradiae4 himself by putting up the present plea, after haVing a sew years before st tied, in his memorial to the. King in Council; that he was igno rant of the illegality of the transastion; but it the Hon. Gentleman would read that memorial with at tention, Ire would find that he stated in it, that at the time he was trading in India he had no wawa to consider that he was violating she laws of his caul' try. .The conduct of the Company's Government in India, and,the relaxation of their prohibitory lam, amounted in his estimation to an abrogation of it ; besides, he pledged himself to satisfy the House, if required, that the paragraph in question wits inserted by a learned Civilini, who, doubtless, was perfectly satisfied that he was, borne out in suels a • construction. When memorials were to be pre.. seined to his Majesty in Council, or to any Public Board, the pun by whom thby were drawn - up had Hoke idea that every expression was to be sub ject to all the turns which an ingenious and meta physical mind could give it. , kite motion was then jn.lt and agreed to. . In a Committee on the Duty on CorkS, it was re. solved, on the motitm of Mr, Hossossots, that for the parporprOtedting the raw material, an addis lional duty of os. -should be laid on every pound of • . ready made corks. The Report - ..sas ordered to be reeeised,to-inerroW. , Mt. WHARTON; brotight-up the Report of the Ass Sessed Taxes Bill.s. • - ']• W. W.iabst.to ebserved, 'that in -some distals furnished houses, though uninhabited, had been tax- - ed, and that in other districts they had not been to ask the Right HOD. Gentleman °r positeithe,reason of phis variation. . r The co.i.Nensosoit of the Exeueauza declared ,that it. was unpossibl9 to give au iminediate and pre cise answer to stichat general question : to-morrow . he would endeavour to Satisfy the Hon. pentleinan. I , In consequen4e el 'ollie observations made by Mr ! ' Tierney with , respect to the colleetion of the A.s. 1 iestedTaxes, the Chancellor ef:the Exchequer inti- -mated his_ intention of. proposiold-Bill of Regulation s I teonorrowi,by some of the • - 61:4SeS of which the objeetionsAntelebysthe Hon. Gentleman would be obviated.. , ,s,- , • MG-I'IE3MM remarked, that it was a strange .. ni th o e 4 ;eo eG p t ; P e T , Q- a c t e rd wi t ilig het j t (t te p l:a ss ve " a i ß " ill ft i‘ r reia 'ta gt g ilati %gs ris thel >l collection of those : taxes to its chance. After a fewAinenclostenta, which were adopted on the. suggestionsof. Mr.. Huskisson, • the Report was agreed to, and the Report was ordered to be read a third time on 'Thursday. - .DEMISW-REVENUES OF THE CROWN. - sfor M a r c . o lif u rte e ti t , o i vo n p o u si r ( s t u t. 1... , of . the-Att --01 thes-3d of his ptetrent Majesty, by • which it had been directed, that the Demised Reyes- r 44 1) 4 0 (1 % - v ° ci l i l r iB tl i l l e olic p e r , ov m is ( i ) o V i e i d S nues at the Crown should be carried into and made a part oc. the aggregate hind, had been.complied with. The* Hon. Gentleman . entered into a very long ex. planation of the 4nbjea, in which we will not pre-, tend to attempt following him.- He repeated h is former assertions with regard to the value of these, revenues, which he estimated at 200,0001. a year, ,again contending that they might be applied to the pu.blic service; in the course of his speech he WM" Mented with much severity on theptistnanagetnent of the Royal Forests, by which the timber of the coon' try, su materially necessary to its service, was deter riorated and destroyed. . - Mr. Rose made a detailed reply to the Hon. Gen' . Venial). Instead of 200,0001. per annum, the re venues alluded to by the Hon. Gentletnan were not worth more than 35,0001. per annum, on which. suns a yearly charge existed of to or MOM. - 11 those !ownues were diverted from -the purpose to Wirichithey were at present applied, that purpose ;must be provided for by a fresh Parliamentary grant, .4 and the Public would gain nothing by the exchang e : . With regard to what the Hon. Gentleman had sales respettiog the mismanagement of the its; al F o rests! ' he-was not aware that any such iiismanagettleot e r a . isted ; on the contrary, he believed,•that great a c t' • : was taken of them. If, however, the Hon. Oe u ti .. Us man thought otherwise,.in.that C4O, le"* 1 ri l v e x ag;