The Sun. — London, England, 1810-05-22 00:00:00

I cneeting at a Tavern in Livorno 1, the result wnich was the Petition which he had the honour present The, Petition (which was of considerable length) by the Cl-rk. It pnil rd the House to re= --ith respect to Mr. John Gale - "oe with the AVa4 ft ise Sir F Blirdett, and to co-bp,.. tal ter in bringing About a Reform in the Representa tion of, the People. . Gen. TARLETOIN, in moving that the Petition do lie rin - the tabl; ohsetve , !, that he agreed w ith the Petitioners as to' the liberation , of Mr. - J. G. Jones, tWbOse.cnitfinrment had, in hiS opinion, been at exit of suttifient duratillti), and •as to the expedi .. of a - P--irbawriitary lietbitn, although he dif erklitoin their setititent, with rehtiot to Sir F. i~arilet t. Mr. GAscoioN E felt,it his. duty to second the mo- althoQ wgh he as convinced not only that - the tition did not convey the entiments of the ma 1. irity of the inhabitants of Liverpool, but that not of those inhahitants could have been pre-• .6;0 upon to ~ fgo it. He was glad to hear that his Honourable Colleague's opinion of the individuals ‘.% horn the.present petition had been signed, had • unpruve: since the presentation by himself of a pe -t,on 'with simlat signatunis. He repeated that the ,majority of the population of Liverpool were per- - fec.tly satisfied with-the blessings Which they enjoy ed under the existing Government. General TARLETori explained. Mr. WHITBREAD did not think it was necessary for the Honourable Gentleman by ‘vbom the mo tion -tvas seconded to en&avour to thrOw discredit upon it. The petition did not profess to be the pe tition of the may2,rity of the people of Liverpool.— The petitioners only assumed to speak their own sentiments. -As to the - charge made by-the Hon. Gentleman against his Hon. Friend, fora vacilla— tion of conduCt,' , it must be remembered that, an. Hon. Gentleman; one :who was considered among the most independent members in the House, had recently declared that the best proof of independence was to be found in voting sometimes on one side and sometimes on another. Ainong the names attached to this petition, it gave him. considerable satisfaction to see that of Mr. Roscoe, than whom a more en lighened, a more breneyolent, and a more patiiotic individual d d not exist; and with all deference-to the Hon. Gentleman opposite, he could not help expressing a wish that Mr. Roscoe bad had the op portunity of presenting the etition now submitted to the House, leaving to his Ron. Friend near• him the honour of seconding it. - The Ktitiou was then ordered to .lie on the table. Mr. ROBERTS presented a Peitir,n from the Elec tors and other inhabitants Of the city of Worcester, praying for Parliamentary Reform. Anevii had been read by the Clerk, _ . Mr. 11 , BERTS moved , thi.it it do lie on_ the table. • Mr. GORDON seconded the moliOn. He obsersied that she Peti , ton was sighed by many respectable in- . d:viduak, and that he should tel it his duty to sup port ~ny plan of reform which should appear to hint to be consistent with the true interests of the eohn:ry, The , Petition was then ordered to tie on the table. . Colonel WARDLE presented a Petition from the freemen and inhabitints bf Canterbury,.praying the Bons , to revise thew proceedings with respect to Mr. John Gale Jones and Sir Francis Burdett. He stated that the Petitioners had assembled he most peaceable and .decorous manner, and that the Peti tion was signed by near 4000 persons, forming four fifths of the .populatiou of the City. During the reading of the Petition . by the Clerk, an expression of surprise used by the Petitioners that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be per mitted to be " at large," occasioned considerable merriment in the'House. 'On the motion of Colonel Wardle, the Petition was ordered to lie on the table., Lord COCHRANE expressed some surprise that the Forest olßere Inclosure Bill had been read a third time at so early an hour in the evening, when he had given notice of a motioq on the subject. He expatiated at considerable length on the necessity of husbanding the timber in the country, declaring that a great scarcity - existed in general, and that at Plymouth in particular, there was not half timber enough to build a seventy-four. After a variety of observations on the subject, he moved that the - Rights of the Crown, the claims of individuals, the interests of the public in the preservation of the Forest of Bere, together with the claims of the Lord Warden, for the relinquishment of his rights, he referred to a Committee. Mr. ROSE thought that it was too much .for the Noble Lord to expect, that because he did not at tend in his- place in sufficient time, the third reading of the Bill was to be postponed.. He defended the Bill, and in answer to the observations of the Noble Lord, with respect to the scarcity, of timber, re marked,- that during the last six years more care had been bestowed on that subject ihau for the preceding half century. • Alr. S. BOURNE defended - the inclostire of the • FOrest of Bere; on grounds of public utility, al though the measure was one which by no means accorded with his individual wishes. • The motion was then negatived without a divi sion. Lord COCIIIIANE proceeded to move, that due no tice should be given in the Orders 'of the Day re speCling the stages of Bills which went to grant away or impair the rights of the Crown, in to. rests, &c. After . a long conversation, in which the Speaker, Mr. Chute, the Chancellor of . the Exchequer, Mr. M. Fitzgerald, Mr. Rose, Mr. S. Bourne, Mr. Wil berforce, and Load COchrane - participated, this mo- - tio was also negatived witout a divisiun. CAPTAIN FOSKETT. . . Mr. LITTLETON in consequenee.of the impetfea communication. which he had hitherto had. with Captain Foskett resulting from his not having oh t&ined leave of absence, and understanding - from a conYersation which passed between them on Satur day, that he had some additional-infoitnation to put hint in possession of, postponed his notice on the subjed from Thursday to Friday se'nnight. • • Mi. 0' HAtti, at the suggestion cif Mr. Grattan, uto‘e'd,that Order of the Day for resuming- the adjourned debateon Thtirsday, should be discharged il that the debate should be rosuMed oa Friday.— motion was agreed to. On the motion of Mr. TIERNEY, an AddreSs was voted to his Majesty, praying that he would begia. ciously pleased to order Acconuts of the Nett PrO ceeds of the Droits of the Admirahy.to be laid before the. House. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Mr. BRAND, rising pursuant to notice, i - stated that circutust:lnces,bad concurred in urging which he had a him to the . performance or mat ~.... taken upon himself. Before he proceeded farther, he would trouble the House with a few observations relating to the motives-by: which be Was gloated, and-the mode in which he proposed introducing to the House the question of. Parliamentary_ Reform.— He had intended making a motion on the subjea early in the Session, but when the House came to that decision on a grand question, by which they h'ad made themselves the objeas of that pribrii3 -;;..ll;:glla nation,. which was previously ciifeCted against his Majesty's Ministers, he was advised by a. Friend not to bring his Motion - forward ditealy. His Friend'S arguments convinced him of the impropriety of mak log it in the then state of the public mind, and he defer red it accordingly. It might still be thought by some, that -he took an improper moment for bringing the subject forward, at a time when an . .Hon. Baronet, -who was a-great advocate for Reform, was precluded, from attending in his place. But has ing stated that it had been his intention to bring the subject before the House from the commence ment of the, Session, he trusted justice would .he done to -his motives for so doing. Submitting' to the. House the measure which he was about to pro pose, he should butperfortn a duty which had- been long expected at his bands. To dissipate alarm, to allay indignation, and to gain the confidence of the people, it was necessary that a reform should take place in the representation of them in -Parliament.— It_ was unnecessary' for him to point out the va rious,defects of the present representation of the people ) or' to - clisviay to the House the several in conveniences thence arising. They knew that there were at the present day seventy Members of that House Who were merely the nominees of the opu; lent proprietors of boroughs. Time consequences of an evil were but too well known. of the ex istence of-the evil none could doubt. .Evidence had been given of it at their bar, and the facts had been entered on - their journals 'lt was therefore unneces sary for him to give demonstration of that whiCh was universally - admitted. The evil to which he alluded was of a twofold nature. In the first instance ,places almost uninhabited had the privilege of being represented in Parliament, and-thus robbed a con siderable portion of the people. of that voice which they ought to have in the great Council of the Na tion. The second was, that large and opulent places had no representatives in that House. There were many other evils and,causes of complaint whit.l,he could enumerate ; but to these he propbsed chiefly to confine himself. That these were grievanceihe . scarcely knew a man in the country who did not ad - mit.—And there was hardly a man to be found who, was not -afraid.of a sudden attempt to eradicate them without 'first .giving the subject due consideration. He Was, one of those who feared the effect of any sudden attenipt of that nature, and however ha might he -prejudiced in favour of his own plan, he thought before it was adopted it ought to be sanc tioned by the approbation of a Committee of that House: To a Committee he wished it to be refer red, by whom it might be altered and amended, if not perfect in its original state, till every cause of ob jection was removed. He now thought it necessary, to state to the House the specific plan he. could wish submitted to a Cotntuirtee ; and he was not .with out hopes that it would find supporters ;on each side of the House. l'he first and' greatest evil of the present system he thought was the. nominating of persons to represent Boroughs. To remedy this evil, he looked to nothing but the Constitution of the land, which he thought, furnished •the -best remedy for an evil sti injurious to the best interests of the country, From what had been done in former times, he thought such boroughs might be constitu tionally disfranchised, and no longer suffered to send representatives to Parliament. Such nomination he thought productive of the greatest mischief. He would rather a Member of that House should pro cure his seat by money than that he should be so nominated by a borough proprietor, as the former would act for himself, while the -latter was bound to obey the wishes and support the principles of his patron; however they might be at variance with his own. There were thirty places, returning each two Members to Parliament, no one of whichsontained a population of more than fifty inhabitants; such places he, thought a Committee and' that House would admit the propriety of disfranchising. The right to be represented could not exist .in an unpopulated place. Population and property must always form the basis and foundation of repre sentation. Where no population was to be . found, and no property but thht to which he most objeaed, he could not think that any Eng reap); e a s e n n t ee I p e a r o i p v :r t3 f r r ! n in . holders; in towns, the franchise was held by the resi dentcliisliirstenashould u l b d e .bee i a c f e o d u . n d To to counties the ele&ive franchise was vested in free householders, that the population might be re presented. He could wish the copyholder to be al lowed a vote. Property would and ever must have its due weight in the representation. In counties, he would leave the eleCtive franchise as it now stands, with the freeholders, merely adding to the . number of eleaors the copyholders. After the de r struaion of the feudal system he could see no ob- I jeaion to allowing the cQpyholder a right , to vote, as that state of dependence on their respective Lords, which marked those time no longer existed. He could see no objeCtion to bringing in a Bill to give a vote pro tura° to the copyholders. The populous places-he would have the eleCtive franchise rest on the resident householder, paying parochial and other . taxes. These arrangements, he hoped, would do away the obje&ions that had been formerly made when the subjed was brought forward. In the re presentation of Scotland some innovations must ne • cessarily be made, if they wished to meet the wishes of the people. He thought time representation of Scotland might be assimilated to that of England. lie would not leave the right of election to those who were wholly destitute of every kind of pro perty, he would have it vested in the occupiers of freehold lands. Now to the disfranchising of time . boroughs, of which 'he had spoken, he -thought there dould be no constitutional objection: . - One i ' difficulty, ho ever,. might arise respecting the right of the proprietors of those horoUghs to compensa tion. In point ,Of right they had no claim upon 'the ' public. He, however, would vote for their re ceiving compensation. It would be best- so to 'do ; for in such instances a - seeming prodigality was the severest economy, as it would remove a number Of impediments which bad hither to stood in the--way of a Reform. This idea, -he - was aware, would not meet with the entire appro eetien et many who had expressed themselves to be . favourable to a he;„..” -; but ae on consideration, he - 7 :• thought they -would be reconciled to and that they would feel the taxes raised for such a purpose • were more essential to the goed of the -country than any that ever were levied. He would now speak as to. the , appointing of representatives to tholeplaces which had hitherto been unrepresented. The first step he would propose should be the giving of a e e p ee „e:^tiye to eines the most populous. There were 400,000 persons reerarng severe pe. ford Road, who were wholly unrepresented, while in the west of England members were returned for places where there was no population at all. What claims could such places as Gatton, Old SaruM, and St. Mawes, have to be represenfed In Parliament, while those of whom we had spoken - wanted a re... presentative ? He would give as many Members as. Were let loose by the reduction of such places to po. . pnlous -towns like Birmingham,. Manchester, &c. In ancient -times there were repeated instances of places which had been ever unrepresented having received representatives in consequence of their in creasing opulence, as he proposed the towns he bad mentioned should now do. For the evils of Scotch representation, he- was less competent to propose a remedy, -than for those of his own country, but lie thought there could be no great difficulty in assitni lating the mode of eleding Members of Parliament there, to that established in England. If, however, that could not be accomplished--if they could, not ,bring about a Reform as extensive and comprehen siveas could be wished, they ought to-do as much as lay in their power, at least, they-should reform them- selves. With the state . of the Representation of Ire.- land ale was still less acquainted than With that of Scotland, but that could be laid - before the Com- Mittee.' He understood there were, as-in England, boroughs in the nomination of a rich and powerful aristocracy. In consequence. of such nomination, that House became an oligarchy, a secondary oli garchy. This ought not - to be: What was there - Worse than a State blending the forms of e free with the spirit of an arbitrary Government ? He now came to speak of theduration of Parliaments. - This he regarded as -being a question of . enormous diffi culty and immense importance. If Parliaments were too limited, the representatives of-the people would be too little acquainted with Parliamentary business, and unfit to answer the purposes for w filch , they were returned.. Inconveniences and complaints arose from their being too long. Thus objecting to annual and septennial Parliaments,- he felt dis 7 posed to go between, and give his voice in 11aour triennial Parliaments. 1f such an arrangeMent were made, some difficulties might arise if the eledions were continued to be conducted on the pree sent plan. If triennial Parliaments were restored, he thpught it would be advisable to vote, by districts' but was totally averse to the , princ'ple of returning by, districts, as much -confusion most necessarily , thence arise: .He would suppose this pl en adopt ed in the county with which he was,best acqueitited --Hertford. In such a case,- divided into tour dis tricts, the' ,greatest must - necessarily predominate over the others, and the richest resieent would 'be returned. Thus he „could not approve of the principle of returning a Member by distriat ; but to vote by distrid would have many advantages, and no- material objection could be urged against it.— The Sheriff might easily collect the votes of each diStrid, and thus save the candidate an immense exFence. Unless some reform was made to the mode of polling, it .was impossible to make Par liaments triennial, without apprehending the most dangerous consequences would result from such a change. Having now shortly gime, through the various parts of the question, he should at that time say little more, reserving himself to reply to.such observations as might be made on his plan. He would not anticipate the objections that might be made to it, but to prevent any misapprehension, he would briefly re-state what were his ideas on the sdbjett; and 'what were the objects he . had in view. 'The Hon. Gentle. - man here recapitulated the changes he proposed to effect. There was one other subject to which he had intended to 'allude, which lie would mention before be sat down. He thought the number of persons holding places under the Crown who sat in that House ought to be reduced. The Huuse could not, in his Opinion . , be too inde , pendent -of the Crown. He hoped it would not be long before a Bill was brought' in to pre. vent any person from holding a situation who did not discharge the duties of it. The state of the coun try had'become Ouch 'that ,reform was indispensably necessary, No alternative remained to us but a mo derate reform, or a military government. Without a reform the sun of England's glory would set for ever; but if one were effected, emerging from a gloomy horizon, it would again-shine forth in all its original splendour. He concluded by moving that a Committee should be appointed to iliquire into the . state of the repiesernation of the people, and to con sider of the most efficacious means of making it more • complete, to report their opinitin from time to, time to the House. Mr. D. GIDDY complimented the last speaker in high terms on the manner in which he had brought the question forward. Of all the plans he had ever heard for Retort!), the plan of the Hoti. Gent. was the most moderate, and . the most rational. Hethen spoke at some length ,on theadVahtageS of our happy Constitution. The King presidtid over all. The House of Lords he contended felt their interests blended 'with those of the People, atr advantage which was peculiar, to this country. Another pe culiarity of.t he Constitution was the Constitution of that House. It was net_ entirely composed of the delegates - of the People if it were ever so yielding to the caprices and flattering the preludices of the Multitude, it would 'Concentrate in itself the Whole power. of the nation, and render it impossible for any other Body in the kingdom to exist with them. In support of thiS assertion, he directed the attention of the'House to what had occurred in a neighbnurifig country, as also what took phice under . suety cilcutn stances at one period of on; own history, and thence she Wed that such - a change could not be' expected increase the happiness or the'liberties of the peopiste If on the one hand it was contended that that Hou Le would be better constituted if it contained a great rr number of the delegates of the people, on the oil per hand it might be successfully maintained that t lie delegates of the people too much preponderat ed over - the .other - parties.- When thoSe Out'ef doors took upon themselves to censure the deCision of that House on the Convention of Cintra or the ex peditissa to Walcheren, and found persons within those wails ready to - synipathise with them and join in the cry they thought proper to rake - against that br'anCh the Legislature, it might well be inferred the dele gates of the people were about to preponderate over the other constituent parts of that 'House. If it. could ,be distinEtly •Seen by the adYocates for a Re- form what that House was In remote times, he tbrwt,ht no wish could be felt to restore it to its for mer state, - when't - s otily called-to gether to make the grants required by life erowna At - those periods the only way . in .which the House of Commons could proceed to the redress of griev ances'was, 'by refusing to make the grants required till their wishes were entirely acceded to. Time wonderfully, but hnperceptibly, accommodated the Constitution to the existing state of things. -If • Gentlemen were to amuse themselves endeavour ing to frame-new Constitutions, they would', per haps, after all find they could not form an idea of one more perfect than the present Constitution of Eng land. He-would not go-into all the subjects touch; - ed upon by the Hon. Gentlem. but he must ex press his reluctance to appointing a Committee, as he did not think they could well take upon them selves to say how far the different principles existing in that aHonse should preponderate one over an other. But there was one.charge . which Was cots' stantly brought against them on all occasions, that of seats in that House being bought and sold. That was thought to be so flagrant and crying an abuse, that no possible perfeCtion in other respeas could alone for it. That that practice was _an abuse, he was as ready as any man to acknowledge- . Where was there an expensive establishment. iet° which some abuses had not found their way ? It was imagined that there were at times a great many seats in that House to be boinsht. He denied th=at that could ever be the case, whatever sums opulent persons might be dispbsed to give tor them. Some might put chase seats to dispose - of than again, but he did not belieVe it to be a very profitabl e traffic. Seats when purchased were generally bought •by-persons desirous of sitting in that House ; persons conneeled with West-India affairs, or other concerts likely to .come before Parliament. If such persona did get indirectly a seat in that House, the evil We s not so very great, as it was proper that persons shoule be there to represent the concerns to which theY belonged. • If there were any persons who held the - absurd idea that the present state of things was s° bad they could not possibly become worse, and that's - consequently, any change must - be for the better , he would advise them to look around them, and tok e. a view of the situation of the other nations of Etl" rive. Let them compare this country with any oile of them. This country had stood its ground whil e other aations had been annihilated. England, freto her happy Constitution, had remained unmoved the shock which had convulsed the civilized world; and now, after a contest -of 18 years duration, our national credit was such that ayery large loan coul d : be raised for the, service of the country at a rate () interest considerably below that allowed by ho c Let them survey the internal (state of the cnuntrY they will find our cities flourishing and distinguish ed by their rising grandeur, while canals, harbour and manufactories, increasing and improving, marls, l ed the unprecedented prosperity of -the country.'' such views before him, and with s uc h reflec,; tsons as those to which .they naturally gave rise, if i should appear that that House had gone somewh a t farther than they ought, he could not think that reason why, by an entire change of system, they should plunge the country into he knew not wh at. difficulties. He was afraid to take the first step, b°,l . ever innocent it might be in itself, least it shouw lead to - otherS of greater danger and i mportan ce If the duration of Parliament should be reduce s from-seven years to three, there might be fowl' those Alohq would wish it shortened still more, al ij if reduced to one year, he had ne assurance. th" r every one would contentedly • stop there. 14 . 6 , had no particular objeCtion to the copyholders ing allowed to vote; but if alterations at ere made, he.should see no bounds to them. 1 14 3 1 ,, might ultimately plunge the. whole system iitte abyss which would swallow all. 'Parliament Loi, l ta . in consquence of such innovations, be Oppue d , {o the Executive Power of the Country, and hi ,` . ., te end the Constitution resolve itself into an absO i lh,,, Monarchy, or sink in the gulph of military o ' o , potism. He would vote against - the Committee ineXpedient. Mr. poet. thought if the representation of t i t / 1 4 3. 6 - • people was such as it Lid been stated lobe, it srb ri a. -be the better way at oanCe . to change the systems a s endeavour to effect a reform. Lord MILTON wished his. Hon. Friend to t sr e ; him that period .to which he would wish re , brought back. Would he go back to the mos t be . mote period of our history, or to the time of Tudors ?—Would he go back to the time of th e Stuarts—to the time of Charles the. Second ---t° the elt' Parliament called `°par excexcellence"--the best sinned Parliament." At thoseperiods wherr the ers laws were made,- the House contained Mem u u . ..„& . from all those places which his Honourable Frwii e would •scratch out with One dash of his - pen: has was not, a friend .to those Boroughs, btit they r i; ) _, , introduced to that House some of the greatest o 3 talents that adorned oar history. Was his _Hon.4 Friend so little acquainted with the failures of ascot Who had attempted to,trame Constitutions , -, eo t suppose he could make one better than. the P . reli oo Constitution of Frill Ind Look at the Consult' e , of .America,, and see if there were pot a f l i t ; e r e , He was averse to the appointment df a Con - n . 1 113 04 as there might be pl:Ais ironed by each 0( e% , who formed that Committee ten times mo re be travagant than that of -his Hon. Friencl i (vvh i w ch v ai c • did not mean to say. was plans extravagant), A 00 no rational man could wish to see adopted, allu woo ld could tell but the most exttatagant of them nis be preferred. He was not disposed to accompa_ l '4 o o. • Hon.friead on a chivalrous search ,:tier ConatituLors Let kiln-(Lord-Milton) havevine.B.ritish Cca.stir w i t b as he now enjoyed it, and he wosad be satiPfic" tf~~ th e dig;