The Sun. — London, England, 1836-06-11 00:00:00

1 The Marquis of LONDONDERRY felt gratified by the announcement of the Noble Lord ; on a former occasion, he had understood the Noble Lord to express a different opinion ; he supposed the Noble Lord had bolted—(A laugh)—and left him (the Marquis of Londonderry) alone in his opposition to the Bill. He was glad to find himself mistaken. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said the clause had been introduced for the purpose of securing vested rights, and relieving the Bishop from any unpleasant position in which lie might be placed if, upon any kind of understanding, he should take the bishopric subject to future deduction. Lord DENMAN felt that it would be highly improper to destroy any Courts in favour of which a strong impression ex isted in the county in which they were situate without inquiry ; and he hoped that inquiry would not be postponed, but that the matter would in a short time be brought to an issue. He CLord Denman) was at this ti me th e Chi e f J us ti ce o f th e Court about to be abolished • the two gentlemen who happened to go on that ci r c u it were a lways, as a matter of course, ap pointed the Judges of this Court, so that, in fact, the business proceeded as if the Court were a branch of Westminster Hall. With regard to the Court of Chancery, the arguments lie had heard by no means convinced him of its efficiency. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in reference to the observation made by the Noble Lord, that the business of this Court was transacted in his Chambers, had received directly contrary information. r The 'Marquis of LANSD 0 WNE should move that the clause respecting Coroners be left out. It might be intro duced into the other Bill respecting the general revenues of the Church, which would come before the House hereafter. That clause was then understood to be struck out. After an observation from Lord ABING E R, The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought the last clause might be better framed. He should propose an amend ment, and take the sense of the House upon it. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE intimated that the Noble Lord would have an opportunity of so doing upon the motion for the third reading. The report was then brought up, and the third reading ap pointed for Tuesday. INSTRUMENTS OF SASINE BILL. f7pon the motion. of the LORD CHANCELLOR this BiTh was read a second time. BA STARDS:WILLS (SCOTLAND) BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the second reading of this Bill, stated that the law in Scotland with re spect to persons born out of wedlock was at present in this anomalous position—that those persons, if they had children, had the power by will of dispossessing those children of their property ; but if they bad no children, then they had no power of disposition over their property at all. The object of the present Bill was to give them that power of disposing of their personal property by will in Scotland which they already pos sessed in other countries. Lord DENMAN begged to give notice that he should on a future occasion move that all wills already made by bastards should be taken as valid and effectual instruments. The Bill was then read a second time, and their Lordships adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 10. Mr. PA LMER took the oaths and his scat, as Member for South Esse:. in the room of Mr. Hall Dare, deceased. The Hon. Gentlehlan was introduced by Sir J. Tyrrell and W. Elwes, and took his seat on the Opposition benches, amidst the congratulatioils of the Tories. Mr. G. F. Young and Colonel Connelly vere the most hearty (to all appearance) in their congratulations. SOUTH . DURHAM RAILWAY. COLLISION IN COMMITTEE. Mr. BOW E S brought up a report of the Committee stat ing t!:at a misunderstanding of a personal nature had occurred in the Committee between Mr. Rigby Wason, Member for pswieh, and Sir Frederick Trench, Member for Scarborough, and the Committee had thought it fit to report the same to the Rouge. The eeport having been read, Mr. BOWES said that he was only acting in accordance with the wishes of the Committee in moving that the Speaker be requested to order the two Hon. Mem bers to attend in their places in the House forthwith. The raction was agreed to, and the Order made. DEWSBURY AND EALAND ROAD. On the motion of Sir J. STRICKLAND, this Bill was read a third time. ISLINGTON MARKET BILL. Captain ALSAGER presei;!ed a petition from the graziers And farmers of the town of Gui:Nord against the Islington Warket Bill. Mr. PLUMPTRE presented a petition iv the same effect from Ashford, in Kent. LONDON AND CROYDON RAILWAY' BILL. On the motion of Captain ALSAGER, the London and Croydon Railway Bill was read a third time, and passed. LIVERPOOL FIRE AND LIFE ASSURANCE COMPANY. On the motion of Lord SANDON the Liverpool Fire and Late Assurance Comp any Bill was read a third time. MANCHESTER AND SALFORD CANAL. Mr. M. PHILLIPS moved the third reading of the Man chester and Salford Canal Bill. A conversation took place between Lord F. Egerton, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. M. Phillips, and Sir J. Graham, relative to the introduction of certain clauses, the object of which was to ,p;otect the rights of the Trustees of the Bridgewater Canal. The clauses were then added. On the motion of. Mr. SC 110 LE FIE L D the Haverford \Vest Bridge Bill was read a second time. Mr. E WART moved the third reading of the Liverpool Fire Police Bill.—Read a third time and passed. THE REMOVAL OF. SMITHFIELD MARKET. Mr. HOGDES presented a petition from upwards of 2,000 blaster butchers of the metropolis against the Bill proposed to be introduced by the lion. Member for Belfast, for the more hu mane treatment of cattle exposed for sale or slaughter, and for the removal of Smithfield market. The Hon. Member bore testimony to the great respectability of the petitioners, and stated that the petition had been so numerously signed as it had been, from one Monday to the other. The Bill proposed by the Hon. Member for Belfast was to be introduced on Monday next, and therefore the petition had been rendered necessary. Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from the Protes tant Dissenters of Cardigan in favour of the Irish Municipal Reform Bill. On the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE, the Leith Harbour Bill was road a third time and passed. Sir. C. BROKE VERE presented a petition in favour of the Dover Harbour Biil. IRISH CORPORATIONS. Mr. ORD presented a petition from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in favour of lush Corporatio.:s, and against" the Lords' am one rnen ts. Loyd MORPETH presented a petition from the Ma gistrates of the county of Londonderry relating to Mr. Gor e Jones. The Noble Lord stated that lot had to apo bYtise to tine Magistrates, and to the Hon. Baronet oppo site ( Sir R. im.teson) for not having presented the petition sooner He felt bound Iv say that Mr. Gore had, in many instances, Proved himself a; very useful officer ; but in justice to the pe titioners he must aLld, that his opinions, as expressed before the Committee, were unmeasured and indiscriminate. 'rho Government did not make any complaint against the Magis trates in question ; he believed that they had endeavoured to disch arge their duties with zeal and ability. If the Corn rnittee had been still sitting, before whom the charges * ere made, it would be a very reasonable ground for , " 1 C Magistrate demanding to have an opportunity of rebut ling these charges. But as the Committee was not sitting, as 2 t Was not pvcn the same session of Parliament, and as, above alf, the Orange body, with respect to which these charg es had originated, had subs e quently dispersed itself, he hope d' that this matter would be allowed to rest, and to be forgotten. Sir ROBERT BATESON- said that as he - was con nected with the county from which this petition came, lie wished to make a few observations with reference to it. Air. Gore Jones had accused the Magistrates in his evi Bence before the Committee of being Orangemen ; and he further stated that he had been constantly in the habit of at tending the petit sessions. The mazistrltes had held a meet ing, consisting of eleven of their body, and came to resolu tions declaring that, with one exception, none of them were Orangemen ; and this gentleman, who was an Orangeman, be .came so in 1789, but had not attended the meetings since. The Magistrates came to resolutions declaring the statements "f Mr, Gore Jones were wilful and direct falsehoods, and that h e never attended the petit sessions daring a period ,_ l5l tw o y ear s, except once or twice , althoug h he had declared 'himself a constant attendant of these sessions. He (Sir R. 'eiateson) was glad to In‘ar the declaration of the Noble Lord, ,tl ..„'at his M a jesty's Government attributed no blame to the ma. tastrates; but at the same time he thought the Noble Lord s hould have gone further, and acqu itted them alto g ether of th e ti unfounded charges brought a g ainst them b y Mr. G. Jones. i' v e i re were eleven gentlemen of all parties, for there were ugs amongst them as well as Tories, most respectable men, Noh, , . ore publicly assailed—they cal l u p on the Government for ~ as meuiry into their conduct, and yet they arc re fused—that a great h ar d s hip. Mr. Gore Jones had threatened thorn han action for libel—they dared him to it a nd lie then re- Ifc'd to go on—they therefore had no other wa y of g etting wir ch aracters cleared but by an enquiry, to which they were ct liitled.— ( H ear .) Th e G ov ernment bad remo ved Mr. Gore ..lones from that district, but that was not le iceugli—if be were guilty he ought to be removed t: m the service of Government, as he w ould be unfit to s erve in any other county in Ireland. On many oecasions r had acted in a very illegal manner, setting the Magistr ates t t he cou n t r y at defiance. Only in July last, he went into the o t t s , of a man , named Kennedy, and violently assaulted hi m ; I_ forcibly took possession of two guns, though lie was vi " n the certificate for one, and the other was a yeomanry ?one • Luckily, it was during divine service, and the peoplet e t e re not i n th e wa y, otherwise the consequences might have %, e n very seilous. The Hon. Baronet then detailed the eireum- N all ees connected with an Orange procession in a town in the r*t ura) of Ireland, which was conducted in a most peacealti4;man until by the unwarrantable interference of Mr. Gore Jones, • ° took th e i r colours from the Orangemen , a r i ot ensued of a to}` serious character. Eleven farmers were taken up for that b ihr • e tlee` and were at once acquitted—the Learned ledge ( Pe n _ ti at . 4t her .; before whom they were tried expressing Ins ,eeinion A the ri g , had been occasioned by Mr. Jones's tnterfevelYee, ea n c t .Person who bed been guilty of such irritatie4 r43,b, e u I mprop er c .induct stould net be entrusted with the er lini ssioi , of the peace , tied ielten the characters of eleven it w t .! i nen were so prrossly assailed ie eyes a the country, % e ls nut too Intleh-fo: him (Sir R. Bateset) A 9 eTet4i; :hat pia n • ? h ie Lord ( Morpee h)wo uld at once admit 44 4ei l F e slut -4,0 n was quite satisfaCtory , otherwise lie should tae ?tt Yt° movefor the pu bl . le aden of the evidence of Mr. GOT ' C a • i ,--.Ptain JONES was glad that uutiQ,notiee bad been taken th e subject, and trusted that %vitat wool i Lro forth now to sta l P hlie would clear up in a grea t measure the xeisunder 'ling that had existed upon it. TITHES. Mr. PL UMPTRE presented a petition from Canterbury against the Bill introduced by Ministers for the commutation of tithes. TURNPIKE TRUSTS CONSOLIDATION BILL. Mr. PLUMPTRE presented a petition from the trus. tees of the turnpike roads from Canterbury to Ramsgate, and from Canterbury to Sandwich, against the Turnpike Trusts' Consolidation Bill. IRISH CORPORATION BILL. Mr. RUNDLE presented a petition from Gloucester i favour of the Lords' amendments to the Irish Corporation Bil _ ...... DUBLIN UNIVERSITY. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented a petition from the Protestant Graduates of Trinity College, Dublin, praying the House to take such measures as were best calculated speedily and effectually to remove the obsta cles which prevented students who professed the Roman Catholic religion, or belonged to Dissenting Churches, from obtaining scholarships in that University. The peti tion was signed by seventy-two graduates of Trinity Col lege of the highest respectability; at the head of the names was Mr. Richards, the Solicitor-General for Ireland, and his name was followed by those of two King's Counsel, two Mem bers of Parliament, and several others of the most respectable members of the Colle7e. If the subject were not taken up by some other Member atter able to do justice to it, he would early in the next session bring it before Parliament. Mr. F. SHAW thought the request very unreasonable. The governing body of the University was Protestant. The scholars formed part of the governing body, and part of their duty was to officiate in the Collegiate Church. Was it, then, reasonable, that persons who were not members of the Esta blished Church-should be admitted to scholarships? After a few words from Mr. H. GRATTAN, the petition was laid on the table. TITHES. Major BE A UCLERK presented a petition from Surrey, praying for the extinction of tithes ; also a petition from the same place, praying for some alteration in the Beer Act. 'FACTORIES' BILL. In answer to a question from Lord ASHLEY, -.........._ Mr. POULETT THOMPSON said it was not the in tention of his Majesty's Government to persevere in the Factories' Bill during the present Session, as from the state of public business it was not likely it could be carried. Lord ASHLEY expressed his hope that his Majesty's Government would put the existing law in force, as they had abandoned the idea of persevering with the Bill of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. P. THOMPSON said that the Government would do every thing in its power to enforce the provisions of the exist ing law. The Home Office had exerted great vigilance on the subject. On the motion of Captain AL SAG ER, the Wandsworth Chapel Marriages Bill was read a second time. It being now 5 o'clock, The SPEAK ER said as the House was now abdut to pro ceed to public business, it was his duty to require that the special report from the South Durham Railway Committee be read. The report was read by the clerk. The SPEAKER said the House having resolved that both Members be summoned to attend in their places forth with, he had to inform them that one Hon. Member (Co lonel Sir F. Trench) attended in his place. The Sergeant had sent a messenger to the lodgings of the other, but he was not there, nor was it known where he was. Under these cir cumstances he bad ordered the messenger to wait at the lodgings, and serve the Hon. Member with the summons as soon as possible. As there was one of the Hon. Members present, probably he would give his word that he would take no steps in the matter until the House had determined upon it when both were present. Sir F. TRENCH said he had but a very short explanation to give. The Hon. Member (Mr. Wason) moved a resolu tion in the Committee which he thought absurd. Mr. L A MBTON would put it to the Gallant Colonel whether he would enter into any explanation in the absence of the other party. Sir F. TRENCH—Then, Sir, I have no further expia tion to offer. The SPEAKER said as the matter had been mentioned to the House, it was his duty to call upon the Hon. Member to give his word that he would not take any proceedings in the matter in the meantime. Sir F. TRENCH had great pleasure in submitting to the Speaker, and to the will of the House—(Cheers)—and the more so, as he had already put himself in a position to take no further notice of the matter. Mr. FIUME presented a petition from Leicester, very nu merously signed, in favour of the Irish Municipal Bill as it had originally passed the House of Commons. AFFAIRS OF CANADA. The HON. MEMBER then presented a petition which he had that day received, of very great importance. It was from the Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada, and signed on their behalf by the Speaker. He had also been favoured with a varietr,of documents which it was impossible, according to the forms of the House, to have laid before it ; but the petitioners, after reciting various grievances of which they complained, referred in strong terms to the evils of irresponsible legislation, which bad been most injurious to the interests of that country, and which compelled them last year to strip the supplies. He (Mr. Hume) would bring the subject very shortly under the consideration of the House. Sir G. GREY would not enter into the merits of the peti tion after what the Hon. Member had stated ; but he felt bound to say, the petition—a copy of which he had seen — contained charges against the character of the Governor of Canada. An answer to those charges had been sent to the Government, and if the House permitted the petition to be printed, he should. move for a copy of the document which contained an answer to the charges. CORPORATE REFORM. _ _ _ Mr. MULLINS presented a petition from 1,500 inhabi tants of Newtown in Kerry, against the Lords' Amendments. Mr. LYNCH presented a petition 'from Galway, praying for Corporate Reform. Mr. POWER presented petitions from Edermine, Oil gate, Tacumshane, and other places in the county of Wexford, against the Lords' amendments, praying for Corporate Reform, and the abolition of Tithes in Ireland ; also complaining of the enormous expenses incurred by the recovery thereof in the Court of Exchequer, when such are recoverable at petit sessions. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JUNE 11, 1836. 'cons:ito:ion of the House of Lords, that it should change from time to time by the introduction of fresh members ; and the question was, whether the class of society out of which were g(nerally selected the individuals raised to. the Peerage, was ofsuch a way of thinking as to render it impossible that, in the course of years, the House of Lords would become re-orga nised an f changed in feelings, in the same degree that the same change would have operated in the class from which they had been taken. If this be denied, and if it were granted that the feelings of the class in question were so opposed to that portion of the constituency of the country represented by the !louse of Commons, as to render it impossible that the feel ings:and vices of the House of Lords could be- so radically changed as to bring them into conformity- wi'h those of the House of Commons ; then, he maintained, that the great political difference which existed ought not to be represented as a difference existing between a certain number of the Mem bers of Cie II mse of Lords and the people, but the situation of parties ought fairly to be stated as a total opposition of the who!, of the upper class of society to that portion of the people represented by the House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) He wonl,l not follow the Mon. Member for Waterford in many of the subjects he had adverted to. Nor should lie follow the lion. Gentleman in his travels through different countries of the Continent in search of municipal institutions, fur he could not but think that there were circumstances—pe culiar circumstances—in the situation of Ireland as regarded this country which rendered the example of other countries not simirly situated of no possible importance to the Legislature of Great Britain. Those circumstances were that the inhabitants of Ireland were divided into a majority and minority peculiarly and singularly situ ateda majority poor, uneducated, mistaken, as they (the Opposition) considered, in point of religion a minority confessedly educated, and loyal in polities.—(A -laugh.) He knew what that laugh meant. He said loyal, because, notwithstanding the universal disappointment of their own views, they still desired to continue their adherence to the Union and their loyalty to the Crown.—(Hear, hear.) A majority and minority thus constituted were set against one another in a virulence of hostility not to be found in any other country; and, moreover, there was the fact that this minority had been maintained in a most improper supremacy, while the majority had been reduced to what he admitted to have been a most unworthy subjection, and that the question now was, not whether they should remove as well the supremacy of the minority as the subjection of the majority, but only whe ther the subjection of the majority should be changed to a not less bitter subjection of the . minority.—( Hear.) That was the real question. Both Houses were agreed that it was wise to abolish the supremacy of the minority: It was asked, on the other side, why were not the Protestant Corporations left untone!ied ? The reason was, that they (the Opposition) wished that there should be no supremacy of the one sect or of the other.—(Hear.) They were called on by the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny- to do Justice to Ireland. He did not quarrel with the expression ; but he could not see how the call could consistently be made by the lion, and Learned r. A friend of his (Mr. Pracd) had recently attended at Limerick a meeting, at which the Hon. and Learned Mem ber had made a most eloquent speech on the miseries of the people of Ireland. The same gentleman had, in the course of the day, had an opportunity of witnessing, in company with a Pri.st of the Roman Catholic persuasion, places where he had seen more misery than it had ever been his lot to wit. ness anywhere. After the meeting (which was on the subject Of the poor laws) lie suggested the desirableness of a subscrip tion by the 800 gentlemen present on behalf of the unfortu tiate beings whom he had seen in so much misery, but he was answered that it would not succeed if it were proposed, for that such a mode of dealing with the question was not po pular. 'But they (the Opposition) did not feel themselves called on to do justice to Ireland in the manner proposed by the lion. and Learned Member, more especially when they were told by him that he wanted the establishment of municipal corporations, not for the purposes of lighting and paving, but as normal schools of agitation. They were of opinion that it was in schools of a very different kind that the people of Ireland ought to be trained, that they ought to be graduated at colleges of a very different description. The onurse which the Hon. Members opposite wanted them to pursue would, in his humble 'judgment, be neither agreeable to the House of Commons, consistent with their duty as Representatives of the people, nor consonant to the trust which had boon reposed in them.—( Hear.) Lord EBRINGTON regretted most sincerely that in either branch of the Legislature the language of conciliation should ever have been forgotten, and, therefore, he could as sure them that with whatever freedom lie might discuss the question, he would not be found to speak of the other House of Parliament otherwise tban in terms of respect.—(Hear.) Every one on the other side of the House who had spoken in the course of the debate, had taunted those on his side of the House with the expressions used by the lion. and Learned Member. for Kilkenny on the subject of Repeal. Now his (Lord Elmington's) sentiments on that subject were well known, and therefore he had no hesitation in repeating what he had stated more than once before, namely, that he consi. dered a repeal of the Union would be a dismemberment of the empire. Even civil war would, in his judgment, be a much less misfortune than the dissolution of the Union exist ting between England and Ireland.—(Cheers.) .Ho should like them well to reflect upon the grounds on which the Le gislative Union between the two eouutrles was carried, He was old enough to remember something about not only what the measure proposed, but the arguments by which it was en forced; and what were the principles on which that measure proceeded ? Why, that the people of Ireland should enjoy equal laws, possess similar rights, and, in short, fully parti. cipate with the people of this country in ail the advantages of the English Constitution. —(Hcar.) These were the senti ments that pervaded the powerful and eloquent speech of Mr. Pitt in 1800, on proposing ,that measure.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt, after combatting tlki arguments raised against the insult which it was alleged he was inflicting on the national pride of Ireland, in depriving the people of that country of their Government and independent Legislature, said, " A country which, against the greatest of all dangers that threaten its peace and security, has not adequate means of protecting itself without the aid of another nation, if that other be a neighbouring and kindred nation, speaking the same language, whose laws, whose customs and habits are the same in prioeis pie, but carried to a greater degree of perfection, with a, more extensive commerce, and more abundant 111044 S of acquiring and diffusing national wealth—the stability of whose Govern ment—the excellence of whose Constitution is more than ever the .adaiiration and envy of Europe, and of which the very country of which we are speaking can only boast an inade quate and imperfect resemblance—under such circumstances, I would ask, what conduct would be prescribed by every ra tional principle of dignity, of honour, or of interest? I would ask whether this is not a faithful description of the circum stances which ought to dispose Ireland to a union ? Whether Great Britain is not precisely the nation with which, on these principles, a country, situated as Ireland is, would desire to unite ? Does a union, under such circumstances, by free con sent, and on just and equal terms, deserve to be branded as proposal for' subjecting Ireland to a foreign yoke? h 4 WA rather the free and voluntary association of two ,great coun tries, which join, for their et:lntl-eon benefit, in one empire, where each will Maintain its proportial weight and importance, undo the security of equal laws, reciprocal affection, and in separable interests, and which want nothing but that indisso luble connection to render both invincible ? Non ego nec Teucris Italos parere jubebo, Nec nova regna peto paribus se legibus ambm Invietre genies mterna in kedera mittant.'" These were the :Sentiments of Mr. Pitt, and such were the grounds upon which the measure of the Union was at that time defended ; but what would that great Statesman say if he were to return to earth, and, after an elapse of thirty-five years, hear the ill-omened words which had been so often alluded to in the course of this debate? He had no wish tq repaiii what he thought Mr. Pitt would say if he were ut,,w told that such words had been applied to the people of Ireland by the leader of the ConserYatiVe paitty in one of the Houses of Parliament Anil who affected to bold his name and memory in rove, recce, although acting as far as possible in opposition to tho principles Which he had laid down. What, ho should like to know, would Mr. Pitt say if lie beard that, after the abuses of the Municipal Corporations of England bad been reformed, and subjected to a vigilant popular control, they refused to cor rect the abuses of the Corporations of Ireland ? Would he consider this an assimilation of the Governments of the two countries which were parts of the same empire, or would he not rather consider it as an insult, a degradation, attempted to ho inflicted by a powerful nation on a country that was wealior• and less powerful ?—( Cheers front Mr. O'Connell aud other Mem bers on the Ministerial benches,) He would ask the Right lion. Baronet, he would ask the Noble Lord opposite, whe ther, in consequence of the difference existing between the two Houses of Parliament, they really thought a change in the Government could be effected, or whether, in short, any other Government than that now in power could possibly carry on the business of the country with satisfaction to the people? They must be aware that they could not apply their measure to Ireland without the aid of military force, and therefore be must put it to them whether they believed the people of Eng land would sanction any such proceeding --,( Hear, hear.) When he first saw the amendments as they came down from the other House of Parliament, it certainly appeared to him that but ona alternative was left to them, and therefore it was tha b t II I to .od u o: it a i l s Iyp rrejoicedopoproposition n a t the wise course which his !Friend had taken, and the t em p er an d di scret i on which tie forward in ord.er to prevent the mischief which must otherwise have arisen. --(Hear.) The Noble Lord concluded by declaring that the proposition of his Noble Friend should have his c0 . , , i44 sttPitctl , Mr. H. TWISS tkli‘i*u had been made to Mr. Pitt —but, even snpcino.r.• %liat that great statesman were pre sent, wt could take a retrove%ivo view of' what had taken place, w as i t not likely that he would call to mi n d a ll that had Item by the H onoura bl e and Lear ne d M em b er fits Killicooy, who, not content with calling the people o f this oeunt ry tyrants and oppressors, taxed them with beinif strange rs Learned Member for Kilkenny who IVA cil'AM4aked the pre sent agitation, and on him oViallt 0 1 14 the consequences of and Saxons. It was, therefore, the W A .. 4 0 all the evil s . t y tt fol i o* (Mr, Twiss) would not the time 4° 0 '19. ke,Pgth Or-sayine• that Ireland ought not tq ha ve t h e a d. valiVes of Sluniciparcorpoi•atiOps,, b,4; ho weuld assert that 1 ad Lord or gs4.,e should be conceded to that not yet arrived when s‘wli institutions as th e No ble "*.i."Milk`k - *V *eh r, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) ‘v.hat the law entitled the people of Ireland to they had. They habeas Corpus Act, the 10310*.; awl all other were not denied Trial by Jury ; they had the huneAt 0f the rightc ,L _ • ', 3s ,s ks. ; but he denied that they wii; aliil qgVic ScotlandAT 4 `' l l` P"' oi l y, f o Qtina as England . 0, loe 1) aced on . with regpect to NALMIMIII4; VAlpiersations. The circumstan ces of t hose equutfleA , txcbrO Act at all compa ra bl e with the state oftl~a In Rogland or Scotland th e y h a d no neeeFetitx f or a Constabulary Act, neither did they require ;ri o; . h.er. n 03ercion Bill, or a Peace Preservation c'Heat., l l;eay.) The whole of Ireland was convulsed by igita- ' .•••• . ....t.........•n•......0...,.+.................., tion ; and so far from disorder being checked or controlled Ministry, from that moment every thing was forgiven, though by the laws, it was actually on the increase. But they had perhaps not forgotten.-( Hear, ael cheers front both sides of been told that they were bound to carry out the principles of the House.) What did the Irish party obtain ? Measures Catholic Emancipation. He should like to know what was were promised favourable to Ireland. Those only they sought meant - Pt, this ? He had been a strenuous supporter of Ca- fur. What was gained upon the other side whoa they came tholie Emancipation ; and when warned of . the conse- I hitt power ? They stipulated for office.-( Hear, and cheers quences of making that concession, he bad declared that I from the Ministerial Members. ) Did the bight Hon. Be he hid no fears for the result. That miseesure was intended to rs»ut remember wile was the death .stroke t o his Ministry? pacify Ireland, but he w as so rr y t o say that it had prod iced die Let him think on Kritchleall, urn Lefroy, tepee ta e di,i. very contrary effect. It hal been s eal th a t C a th o li c is maec i, I sion can the Civil List.---( Hear, and cheers. ) What on his petion li .gi been carried too late. He was wit there to argue ( Mr. Shiel's) side of the House IVR; asked for by the Irish that qu-stion. But he must express his apprehension that the neither, ? The beat it and advantage of their country people of England would have to repent that it hail ever been alone. Let. Clem show him one man arnonest them who was itt carried. The great o bj ect the measures of the Government Plaee•-(Cheers.) Of a ll th e I r i s h M em b ers, the only one in seemed to have in view was the extinction of Protestantism in office was the lion. Member for Kildare._(Cheers.) They Ireland. and the application of Church property to other put-- asked but for justice, because they knew that in that was in poses ; and Repeal was the weauon by which the Hon, and eluded equality. They were charged with entering into a com- Learned Member for Kilkenny forced them to obey his man- pact. In what did it consist? That th ere s h ou ld b e dune dates and wishes. that which, in their hearts, the Opposition knew ought to be Mr. (3 ISBORNE wished to call the attention of the House dune for Ireland.-( Hear, hear.) Ile should not dwell' tin) to the real object of the amendments made in this Bill by the longer upon this subject--he had been led beyond the line other branch of the Legislature. The principle involved in that he had intended to pursue upon this subject ; but the these amendments was neither more nor less dian the &straw- Hon. Member for Sligo had forced him to do so , er a f or tion of the municipal rights to which the people of Ireland going so far, he trusted he should be excused by a l' a parties were entitled, but which they were not to be all owe d to enjoy, in the House.--(Hear, hear.) It was, lie thought, of im because the majority of them belonged to a certain religion. portance that the debate should end that night, and there_ This was the principle of these amendment s . Th e ag og fore it was his intention to be as brief as possible. He did Member for Sandwich had last night all u d e d t o th e right of not mean then to 'enter into the question of the differences judgment upon public measures which th e H ouse of L or d s between the Corporation for Ireland Bill, as it was returned were entitled to exercise. No one dreamt or questioning to that House, and as it went into the Lords. There was r, i _ the rights of the House of Lords in that respect. But lie other question now between the two parties that divided t h at did not think it advisable that th e L or d s s h ou ld stan d out upon House -it was a quest i on between the House of Lards and the exercise of extreme rights ; for if they did so the House the House of Common;. Before he went inte, the facts of of Commons might equally be called upon to stand upon the the case, he should remark upon the princitsk applicable to assertion of their extreme rights also. If the House of Lords those differences. He had one authority to quote, it was were determined to pursue their own course he thought that that of Mr. Cannin, and it was to be found in a speech of the House of Commons ought to be equally determined in his delivered in June, 1827, after amendments had been in pursuiag theirs.-( Hear.) Whatever the opinions of a ma- troduced into his Corn Bill. The object of those amend jority in another place might be, he did not think that the ma- meats was to destroy M 0 --r . - Inniv",:'s administration. The Bill jorite in that House could recede without disgrace. The had been sent up front the re • aommons to the Lords -there an principle which they now contended for wad, the extension of amendment was introduced which was fatal to the principle of the same municipal rights to England and Ireland. This was the Bill. Be wishP" t e now the House to observe that lie was what Ireland had a perfect right to expect. The Hon. Gen. not quoting D luau who was a revolutionist ; he was quoting a tleman concluded by deprecating- any compromise on the part Ida" Wh o was devoted to the maintenance of existing institu of that House. He was confident of success in the feint- tim • .'s as any one who then listened to him, and here was the nation. language of Mr. Canning-this was the advice which Mr. Mr. H. GRATTAN said that the a queeeon which ti . ,, h a d Can n i ng sugges t e d t h at t h e unre f orme d H ouse of Commons to consider was, simply wheth er th ere should be 'r'g union . ' with ought to adopt. Mr. Western having moved an amendment Ireland or no union ?-(Hear.) They 'Th.° now to decide to enforce those adopted by the Lords, Mr. Canning said whether Ireland was to be governg' on the principle of the " I agree, Sir, with the Hon. Gentleman, that something is Act of 1800, or under distienei and separate provisions. He necessary to be done; but the rule I should lay down upon considered that they bad not to decide whether the Irish the subject is a very plain one. As, I presume, the House of people were to be considered as inferiors or as equals. He Commons is not so reduced as to abjure what its Members had heard of indivikalakmeing placed out of the pale of the con- have declared to be necessary principles, to rescind their stitution t but the larilieat was an atte m pt to p l ace a nat i on out d e lib erate r eso l ut i ons, an d to throw away as waste paper that of the pale cif the constitution. He contended that the Bill of Bill which they have so much and so carefully considered, the Lords was fraudulent and insolent, and intended to de- merely because in a certain assembly, which, for many rea fraud the people of Ireland of their just rights. It was sons, is entitled to our respect, they did not happen to be argued that the intention of this Bill was to abolish entertained with that courtesy which might have been ex- Corporations in Ireland. The object of the Bill was no such petted, but were made the subject of an amendment, which thing. He contended that the Bill provided for the protec- not merely went to rescind what we had enacted, but to in tion of the ea r p orato property. The Hon. Member proceeded troduce principles, that,• besides being new, were positively contrary to what we had determined t o b e necessary . L et t h e to comment on th e construct i on of the word " except " in the Italeaded Bill of the Lords, and contended that the object of House themselves feel this as they may. If there be a single spark of pride or of shame in it, they will not submit t o i t ." this amendment w as t o protect the funds of the Corporations. He contended that the Bill as it stood now was a fraudulent This was the doctrine laid down by Mr. Canning.-( Hear, Bill. It was a Bill that would be of no use whatever to Ire- hear.) Now, the Bill which was before them had been car land, The object of the measure was to keep up a Protestant ried by a large majoritya-a majority of sixty-four-in a House eeeeedeney in Ireland. One of the arguments against the of Commons called by the Right lion. Baronet.-(Hear, coneoision of this measure was that the Catholics would avenge and cheers.)-N ow , w h a t h a d b een d one w i t h respect to this the past. He cont en d e d t h at th i s was an unfoundel objection. Bill? A resolution had been proposed by a Noble Lord, who The experience of the past sufficiently proved that such an was known to be the translator of Faust, and whd in proposing expectation was unfounded. In 1781, when the troops in Ire- such a resolution, seemed to have consulted with some, land unmounted only to 5.00 w, and when there were 100 000 familiar.-( Hear, hear, hear, and laughter.) What was one Irish under arms, how did the Irish people act ? The Hon. on the other side ? They were not satisfied with liter eas i ng Member related an anecdote, that during some of the pro- the influence of the Castle, but care was taken chat all ceed:n sof 17811, of a mob, the BishoP of B , iitoi bovine come existing offices should be preserved. Such WO . , the sym into the house of Lord Charlernont, saying,"Blood, my Lord, we pathetic solicitude finr speculating. trustees re`d plundering shall have blood ;" Mr. Grattan and Lord - Charlemont who were Corporators, and all were most carefully ma i ertain e d.-( Hear, present at the time, stated that, so far as their influence went, hear, hear.) And yet they were to be this treated, because it there should be no bl oo d. H e re f erred to the elections that was said that they were " aliens in lan,r , „„g, i t was rather had taken place in Irele n d, i n w hi c h i n many instances Pro- hard that their defect in language si.m . ' eld cost them their at testants had been preferred to Catholics. He, a Protestant, stitutions. -( Hear, hear, and cheers.) There would be a last had been returned to that House by a Catholic constituency. ing recollection of the words app), ie d to them. They were said He concluded by sa yi ng , t h at un l ess they totally extinguished to be " aliens in language, ir, country, and in blood." Now, liberty in Ireland the people never would be brought to sub- be called upon Hon. Memb ers opposite to say did they adopt mit to partial and unjust legislation. They required to be go- that phrase ?-( Hear, la ear.) Did they deny it ? Or dare veined on the principles of British citizenship, and on those they confess, and Paish at it ?-(Cheers.) He asked the principles alone would they submit to be governed.--( Hear.) Right Hon. Memlaer for Tammvorth did he adopt that phrase ? Lord SANDON, who was scarcely heard in the gallery, Was it, and he dtd so, with every respect for that Right Hon. denied that the corporate property in Ireland was more than Baronet, wee it he who mi•ould now say that he had conceded 50,0001. a year-neither did the Bill deprive Ireland of Mu- emancipatieo, to those who were aliens in country, creed, and nicipal Corporations for local purposes. The abolition was language ?...( Hear, hear.) Let the Opp os iti on mar k to w h at proposed becaus e th e p eo pl e o f t h at country had their political a condition they had ' reduced themselves. He entreated of feelings in so excited and excitable a state that it was not safe the lioble Lord who sat beside the Right Hon. Baronet to re to entrust power in the hands of the majority. As to the re- Tr.ember who was his leader-who at the head of his perty.- ' fereece which had been made to the Quarterly Review, he ac- (Cheers.) Did the Noble Lord remember-he was sure the knots ledged no such authority, and it was not fair to taunt House could not forget his powerful and emph , :cie language those at his side of the House with contemplating martial law upon a former occasion, and with what force nc had useda for Ireland, races) especially when the taunt came from that quotation, from which he might now apply to, the Noble Lord party who, three years ago, asked the House to pass the Coer- these words__oioo Bill.-( Che e rs.) " Yet time serves wherein you ma• ore yourselves Mr. S HEIL o b serve d t h at to the Noble Lord opposite he Your tarnish e d honours, and rest redeem should make thi s s i mp l e o b servat i on-the town which that Into the g oo d th oug h ts o r . I.lle world again : Noble Lord reprmented was within twelve hours dis- Revenge the jeering and disdained contempt tance of Dublin. Now, what would the Noble Lord think, Of this proud King.,• 4 -( Cheers. ) if the extraordinary proposition were made to him, that a He should now pass with as much velocity to the remaining Corporation was to be continued in Dublin, • and refused to facts. They could not bat observe that the proposition of the Liverpool ? Duke of Richmond was rejected--a proposition that came Lord SANDON-Look to Manchester. from one who supported Conservative principles.-( Cries of Mr. SHEIL-No; for Dublin had a Corporation even be- " No, no," from the Opposition Members.) Why, that Noble fore Liverpool possessed one. But how e dub! the people of Duke had resigned - with the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) and Liverpool feel if it were suggested.tteat their Corporation was did be not support Conservative principles with more than a not to be reformed, but abolished, and its estates transferred to convert's zeal ?---( Hear.) Having thus quoted the authority of Commiss'oners of the. eiown ?-( Cheers.) Did the Noble Mr. Canning upon the great constitutional principle involved Lord not know-_and he appealed to the candour and frank- in the conflicting principles of time two Houses of Parliament, nass of the Noble Lord-if an universal feeling of indignation he had now another authority to go to. This was a speech de would he excited by such a proposition ?-He passed from the livered at the Merchant Tailor's-hall, on May 11, 1835. Noble Lord to the Hon. Member for Sandwich. lie (Mr. (Hear, hear.) He found the report of this speech, not in the Skit) was always exceedingly loth to speak of hilt:self--it was debates of Hansard, nor in the Mirror of Parliament, but in his opinion that tho more a man avoided speaking of himself, a small volume of speeches of Pest rate eloquence delivered by the more did he - manifest a regard for his own character, ad- 'the Right lion. Sir Robert Peel, and corrected by himself.-- vance his own interests, and please his audience. But really (Hear, hear, and a lausfn.) lie entreated and solicited the the reference that had been made by that Hon. Member to the attention of every man whom he at that moment addressed, to speech delivered by him at Thurles, imposed upon him the obli- the principles laid down in the extract which he was about to. gation of removing that which, on the part of that Hon. Mem- read to the Hoe ne ; principles in which the relative position of ber, was misconception, and with others misrepresentation, the two Hoe ses of Parliament in regard to one another, and He hoped that the House would begin to observe, that it was their joie: relation i : n respect to the executive, were distinctly ma agra ; lie would give the extract verbatim as h e f ound it ' with th e u t most re l uctance h e spo k e of himself. He assured laid. the House that h e h a d clear and unequivocal proofs to produce --(Cries of go on, go on.) The Hon. and Learned Gen_ in confirmation of what he had to state.-( Hoar, hear, 'hear. 1 denten then read the following passage from the speech re- He was not about to say, that the etteeeh that he had mace a t ferred to :-" I warn you that you must not place a fir m ro ll - Thuries h a d b een m i sre p orte d. Par from it-be avo - we d t h e ance upon the prerogative of the Crown on the influence report; tuft he denied the emementary that h^ been made or authority of the House of Lords.-(Cri es o f " S peak out. " ) ...a upon it.-(llear, hear.) Again and again it had been al- The prerogative of the one, the authority of time other, are legecl that a compact had been entered. into with the Irish constitutionally potent in controlling the powers of the pertg, ea which his Hon. Friend on the left was at the head. Lower House, but you must not now-a-days depend upon Now he had not spoken of such e compact; but he spoke of them as bulwarks which are impassable, and which can. Ito the compactness of the union that prevailed amongst Members committed without apprehension to thestorm and strugg sitting upon that, as th; re did upon the other, le of Y __Yes 1 act both side of the events. The . Government of the c ountr " House ( Head and cheers•from sides hear it for to both sides it affords matt er f or reflection , and who would deny it ?-, buds sides of the House). If they insisted upon a proof of " The Government of the country, and the mode in which it tho compactness of that union, -he would say to them, is conducted, allow me to tell you, must mainly depend upon " Cireuntspice."-( Cheers). No such statement was made by the Constitution of the House of Commons.-(Hear, hear.) him, as that a compact.hhd been entered into. He spoke of I again say, the 'Royal prerogative, the authority of the "a compact junction;"_ but the word "junction" was left out House of Lords, are most useful-nay, necessary, in our in the commentary. In place of the epithet "compact," the mixed and balanced Constitution., from both sides word "tompact" had been introduced.---( Hear ! and laugh- of the House.) But you must not strain these powers. You ter from the Opposition). Hon. Gentlemen opposite would not consider that that was worthy of the name of a Go smiled, ae It lie had recourse to a variety of intonation to mark vernment tt:hieh existed upon nothing but a series of collisions the, eltettnction.-( Hear, hear, from Opposition Members.) and hostilities between the two branches of the Legislature„-_ It was rio such thing, .He had tho speech by him at that mo- ( Marked and protracted cheering from the Opposition.) You ment, amid if they called upon him to read the paragraph he would rather see them moving in that harmonio u s manner v.tiieli would et once do it.-( C r i es o f " H ear, h ear, and read. " ) i nsures the utility of each and the efficiency of all. I a'-,k vou, 110 hail hitherto refrained from alluding to this subject ; be. then, to take means to assert in the House of Comuir.ns those (settee he had found in a reported speech of the Hon. Member principles which we believe to be just, and to es ereise that for Bradford, that he intended to make this the subject of one authority to which you are fairly entitled.-(Cieeers.) On of' the many motions, with which he had threatened the House, taking office I avowed my determination to abde 'ay the Reform He had waited, therefore, until the Hon. Member bad intro- Bill. I trust I have redeemed that pledge, not by a niggardly duced that motion, as lie had brought fdrward others._-( Hear and cold acquiescence in details, but I trust, tut honest ;and ge and laughter.) lie should now read the haat passage in his nerous deference to the broad principle it int olved.-(lronical speech, to show the spirit in which it had been delivered. It cheering.) On this broad, constitutional principle my friends stated that between the Whigs and the Irish people a coin- and I acted. We acted in the spirit of the Reform Bill, pactneea of union now existed. Now, it was upon such sea- When we found that we bad re et the confidence of the House of timents that it had been over and over again stated by the Commons, although the Parav against us was miscellaneous in Hon. Members for Leeds and Bradford, and by others, that the extreme-( wLau eater and cheering)-alth oug h th e majo there as a compact bet ween t h e I r i s h M embers and the Go- ritY wag Small, - telt it our duty t o res i gn .-(Ch eers. ) How vernment. The lion. Member f or B ra df or d h a d declared ever stronely. p • we might have opposed the elective system before, that "they knew perfectly well what Mr. Sheil had said, that " noW . '.,ettered to our pledge • we not only gave time Reforet there was such a compact, and that Mr. Sheil should explain Bill a fair trial, but we regarded it as a constitutional settle that in the House of Commons."-(Cheers, and " Oh, oh !" 'inent of a great question.-( Loud cheers.) We did not en- front the Opposition Members.) It really was itiroluntar",, . tertain the idea of governing the country against a majority that he was dragged into thi s discu ss i on:, len of this ' Le „:,-••, of the Reformed House of Commons."-(Marked cheering quite sure, that however greatly the spirit of part- •might . accompanied and followed the conclusion of this extract. ) wail, yet in a matter which wasl personal, he -. sas ‘ure that p t r h e e lie would now ask the Right Honourable Baronet, "Do you spirit of fair play would he always foe - entertain the same opinions on this subject now ?-( Hear, hear, i ' d e»red • t omitomina c.-- ( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now and cheers.) Mark how the facts stood. Lord Melbourne ' de should i from hie speech, and for this - eeaso i n, that st n was bias passa g eins s resigned, and the Honourable Baronet dissolved Parliament 1 at that moment not to without meeting it. There was not an instance in history of' '` .cacti the late Goverment, but to vin dicate the . p . resens ... . the same force as this. The Right Honourable Baronet reet lifter speaking of the disunkins which had prevail •• between the 'Whigs and the I r i s h M em b ers, he the new Parliament, and th e first question pressed upon, hi s p ro ceeded to say that with the Whigs they now entered into notice was the English Corporations, and the necessity for 1 a close alliance, and that seeing this, they were forced into a Pl"cing them under a system of popular controul.-(Cries of compact alliance and indissoluble junction.-( Hdar, hear, from " No, no.") If his memory filled him not, the first question ' Colonel Perceval, and cheers from the Opposition Members.) raised was an amendment to the address, with a view to plae- Then they did provoke him to the reading of the preceding ing the Corporations of England on a popular • footing—. hear. ) That amendment was carried by a consider-. passage, and he should gratify them. He stated that they be- ( ilea'' , held with indignation the persons who were placed in the able majority, and after two or three months vain conflict with the majority of the House of Commons, time Right Honour-. Privy Council ; that Lord Roden was marked out for an office It might Honourable esa ß id that the majo near the person of the King, and there were the grand tree- able Baronet resigned. surer mind other officers of the Orange Lodges appointed. rity which turned the Right d aronet out of office, 'then that which he called a compact alliance and indissoluble was a small one; but had ait,lsoiinieciel and d crease a On the oth er junction they insisted was a compact.-( Hear from the Oppo- hand, had it not rather Che : strengthened uaderh on ' eac h shier% Members.) He did not think so ; but then they ought succeeding occasioinic.-R -(Cheers.) e H rs o . n ) ourable Baronettese carcum v,hat hi s to recollect that he was an " alien in language."-( Hear, hear, stances, he asked the what hopes could h and loud cheers from the Ministerial Members.) Assuredly, paospects were which - .had already edrre.sur.le office in looking at Hon. Members opposite, he would say that there time face of t fpower Parliament (Hear, hear.) Or iv.en him from was no compact amongst them, although there was a compact the seat 0 - waold . the Right allthis dilemma by Hon. Baronet avoid junction.-( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) They said at once r nt without facing them, and ' again dissolving then, that there had been a misrepresentation of his words. Pa- Parliament Commons which he had been the instrument the very There was no bargain-he appealed to their common sense House together ? He begged the the instrument of ef.,11- upon this, that them was no compact ; and lie trusted ing g d to 'n e sider what was the state Right Hon. Baronet to pause upon this subject that no man would resort to miserable e and England. ee He asked the R. of the feelings of the I freo pic eattedletits.-( Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.) If they as ked of ' I ld , the feel' te ight Hen. Baronet whestber, Ira him had there been a junction, he would at once answer that 1 lus (ne ' w e e l tborea, !legs of the people of Ray'- g,an were ever ra i ls A higher . pitch of sympathy than thre were now there WLIS-a fair, open, and honourable one.-( Cheers from the Opposition Members.) They did support those whom eOttmee presentboquhestion ?-( Hear, hear, and oh, oh 1 front most determined i ar ) a si e t d ion i,th. e t b c es. ) If you deny - (coatindthe Hon. they bad opposed, and lie was one of their tame and L i e they con- , that this feeling existesetrengst tie , opponetits-they did oppose the Whigs, as long asl ' f E I 'in er) sidered they were actiug hostilely to the interests of Ireland; pLop e o ng and, do you deny this, that t.iire glade simil ar • t were allegations before--( Hear, hear)-that you (strained the 1 ,re_ but the moment the • Whigs adopted principles that favourable to Ireland that moment their opposition sased. rogatives of time Crotvn to dissolve the former Parliament ,*and The mo ment t h at the Church Commission was issued and• that all the efforts of your i ncen di ary e l oquence were tr Aad i ii acted upon, and that the Whigs of 1824, Lord John Russell, vain in bringing together that which was totsucceed it Sir Jobe H o bh ouse , an d o th e r s , took a prominent part i n t h e th a t P ar li ament you were discoinfitted ?-( Cheers.) 1 , for i n will i'~~. ADJOURNED DEBATE. The Order of the Day for the adjourned debate having been read, Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD rose, and said that he trusted he should not be considered presumptuous in hav ing an anxious desire to express his sentiments on this very important subject. He had been entrusted to present numerous petitions to the House from both Roman Catho lics and Protestants, praying the House to reject the amend ments of the Lords ; and he would take that opportunity of expressing his sentiments upon those petitions ; not having been allowed to do so at the time he presented them. In doing 5o he most respectfully solicited indulgence from both sides of the House. He differed from gentlemen on the Op position side, and he was not able to say that he approved of the proposition of his Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear.) As it Protestant of the Established Church, he felt specially called upon to take part in the debate on this occasion. He admitted that ha belonged to a sect to whom he ascribed a grew: portion of the evils of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He did not Aeon to make any personal allusions, but the means taken by the Protestant interest to keep themselves up were the cause of those evils. They had attempted to support themselves by inflictions on their Catholic brethren, and by depriving them of that influence they ought to possess. He would only say that the true ground upon which Protestantism ought to be supported, was by obtaining the friendship of all persuasinms, and by admitting all to equal privileges and power, This was the mode in which lie wished to support Protestantism, 41Y1 he thought that this was the only sure foundation on 1.04,4 it could be supported. These princi ples he had maintained out of the House—to the maintenance of those principles ha la'as indebted for his scat in that fjouse, and lie never desired to maintain principles out of Parliamettt which he did :not wish to enforce In that House. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the course pursued by that House— . -on this ticcagion, and particularly on the oc casion of moving an amendment to the Address. The proposition of the Noble Lord, in leis opinion, admitted. the principle of the Lords' Amendments, 'because it con sented to the abolition of three-fourths of the Corporation; of Ireland, and if Corporation,,; Ivere useful in large towns, they ware equally so in small ones. it was on these grounds that Le objected to the proposition of the Noble Lord.—( Hear.) 1-1 0 had joined in tiie agitation in Ireland with the full inten tion af carrying out full measures of relief. He called upon the Hous e s to look at the policy of the compromise with respect to England. Was it good policy to allow the Lords to make such havoc with e Dill sent up to them, after full and mature deliberation'? This principles of the Bill h a d b een di scusse d and adopted, but warn new no more ;th en t h e C ommons p ought to insist upon their ownrinciples being f u lly carr i e d out, or postpone the Bill for a thine, Would the Irish hurt their cause in Scotland or in England if they were to defer their relief for a time, so that they might obtal i n equal justice with their [chow enlintrymen ? It was sa id t h at the of this Bill would destroy die Administration —that he did ground of affording justice t o t h e people. not telicve, for the supporters of the goiTliquent gave their support on this He did not wish to of or any disrespect to his Majesty's Go vernment ; he thought that Ireland was indebted to the Noble Lord (Russell) for the sentiment ‘..o;;;;ajned in his speech ; but tia felt bound to state that ii; was his in tention,/ whenever the question came on for discussion, a s to what towns ti . vig to have municipal charters, and what not, he would take tio pD;ytiert of the Hous e u p on th 9 ()mission of certain towns which in Ii npinjnn ought to have antyters. He would conclude by thanking the figup for the indulge - ince 1)?°Y had shown him. Dr. LEFRO li cook‘i 44, avoid expressing his admiration of the straight-forward and manly it.;_c.;,7;ly of the speech of the 11 " , o pnt l e naan who had just sat down, 6.41'0 could not help 004 t k if t after that speech it wouill loc coip inconsistent on the ihs4 i. fi f the Hon. Gentleman to vote for Noble Lord (Russell). proposeh em i g d ht li c Y sal laim m the vote i i; pepourable the o He thought alterations that O t angernan on this occasion.— (" No," from Mr. S. C r a w f orst .s i he ;cc,,4,4 0 .4.0 join in the cry of—Justice f or England , and Engl an d an d iiictitig4ii f " 4 a44.4 gr IrPlor upon the same principle upon which e , i4. hs4ted for. B u t t h e va l ue of that call, from eithei 54.0 &f, i-ie itofig, nest de end 90 till meaning of the words " Ireland and inWg.;....' tf , 41 . h'Tt t .„ l -Lne n op p posite meant by Irelan d, the wh ole popula (Bh, ' l "‘ ,t t, 9 inilge in that term not me rel y the numerical ma jority of V" PAW flatt*lies, but the minority in numbers, lie then he would atirntt, o f 7.l.4;',A t ; ti , ;,i f t gill a number not inferior in wealth, rank, influenci, 44401P,T L W ;• I • l ii?; . ' e h n .. ce ' Was bold 'enough to say that ttte iliee.S44; NOir,CW4 0 ;lis Napsfyi Government would . not do justice to rfctatid. The reconstruction of English and Scotch Corporations was not protested against by any very large portion of the people.—(Cries of " Hear.") On the contrary, the people were decidedly most anxious is favour of the alteration, but in the case of Ireland there was a very es-en_ tial difference. The Protestants in that Awry had the Cor porations in their own hands. He for his part did not tsish for the continuance of any exclusive system ; but he equally deprecated the transfer of the powers the Protestants now held, to another exclusive body, viz, the Roman Catholics of Ireland. He put it to the House whether such a course of legislation would be fair dealing towards the Protestants, and whether so large a portion of his Majesty's subj ec t s whose feelings and interests were so deeply concerned in the question should be overlooked. What w 25 the measure of the house of Lords? Did it not do more justice than the Bill of that House? Did not the Bill of the Commons give all cor porate property to the Catholics in an indirect manner? Th e House of Lords' Bill provided for all that was essential for th e public good, and they had consulted justice to Ireland mare than did the Bill of the Ministers—the corporate property wag to be applied to the good of all classes of the King's subjects in Ireland. He complained that this Bill would invest in the 101. house holders, who were Roman Catholic, the power of electing Town Councils and Commissioners. Was this, he would ask, doing justice to the Protestants of Ireland ? The House would not dare to do this directly.—( Heat, hear.) They would not give this power to the Roman Catholics co nomine ; but the Bill would and must have this effect. He e Intended that the measure sent down from the House of Lords wascal culated to do full justice to all classes of his Majesty's subjects in Ireland. Mr. GROTE participated in the feelings expressed that night by the Hon. Member for Dundalk, and should have much preferred the rejection at once of all the Lords' amend ments, unless there happened to be some amongst them whi c h might appear to be of use, if embodied in the Bill. It was seldom of much good to compromise their own opinions. Concession in this case did not seem to produce conciliation. If ever there was a Bill which required that they should discuss with freedom the amendments of the Lords, it was a Bill such as this. It was used in such a manner by the other House as no Bill, he believed, ever had been used by them before. They not only altered the preamble, but they adopted a principle which had been solemnly rejected by that House. It would be an ever lasting disgrace to that House if they agreed to give up the principle. Much allusion was made to expressions said to have been used by a Noble Lord in the other House. Perhaps it was not an advisable course to dwell too much upon language uttered by an individual in the course of debate. In the pre sent instance, however, the language said to have been used was actually embodied i n the Lo r d s ' amendments.—( Hear.) They were quite in conformity to the sentiments expressed. The general objection to this Bill was, that it would lead to agitation. It did not appear to him that a well-organised mu nicipal system had any such tendency.—( Hear.) When men were debarred from the management and superintendence of their own affairs, they were more likely to busy themselves about public affairs, and to act in a spit it of agitation. Not only was the question of municipal institutions involved here, but the question also whether all classes of his Majesty's sub jects in Ireland, no matter what their religious persuasion, ' were to be treated on the same footing as they were in Eng land and in Scotland.—( Hear, hear.) By these amendments the Lords pronounced the people of Ireland to be un fit for and to be unworthy of electing municipal councils. This was in fact equivalent to proclaiming them unfit and un worthy to send Members into that House. To say that the people of Ireland were worthy to elect RepriVentatives in Par liament, yet could not safely be entrusted with the election of town councils, appeared to him a most glaring inconsistency.— (Hear.) The question they, had now to decide upon was the comparative merits of the original Bill, and the Bill as amended by the Lords. He did not wish for a conflict with the other House off arliament, but if it must come, it could not arise upon a more noble cause. At present both Houses differed not alone upon this, but upon other great public mea sures. It would be far better to have an open collision than such secret reluctancy on the part of the Lords to concur in any measures of public importance sent up to them. If the "louse of Commons and the House of Lords continued thus to take different views of all public measures, would it not be better to enter at once upon the contest ? The blame of hav ing excited it would not lay with them. The two Houses could not remain very long in their present relative position. Mr. RICH ARD S should give his vote in favour of the wiser and more temperate measure which had received the sanction of the other House of Legislature, and which in that House bad been so eloquently advocated by the Right Hon. Baronet—the leader—the admirable leader—of that side of the House.—(A laugh from the Ministerial benches.) Hon. Gentlemen might laugh if they pleased, but perhaps ere long they would find occasion to laugh on the other side. What was the fact with regard to this Bill ? His Majesty's Minis tors had come down to that House, and had proved to the satisfaction of the House that the Corporations of Ireland had not tended hitherto to promote her peace, nor con tribute to her welfare, because they had been in the hands of an exclusive party; and in order to remedy the evil they wisely proposed, as the best mode of conferring equal rights and privileges on all classes of the community in Ire land, to take those municipal privileges away front the party who had hitherto enjoyed them, and transfer them to another party equally exclusive, although of opposite politics and contrary principles. Was this calculated to promote peace and prosperity in Ireland? No; and, so far from seeing any reason to find fault with the other House of Parliament for the course which it had adopted on the present occasion, he thought they had acted alike with that political wisdom and cool determination for which they were so justly celebrated.— ( Oh, oh, from the Ministerial benches.) And was it for this that they were to be denounced ; was it for exercising their just rights and privileges that the Hon. Member for the city of London was to call on the House and the Government to appeal to the people of England ? What was it the Hon. Member meant by appealing to the people ? He could not suppose, from the character and station of that Hon. Member, from his prudence and his foresight, that he would tell the people of England that the House of Peers denied equal jus tice to Ireland; that it denied to Ireland that municipal government which it had given to England.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He could not suppose that the Hon. Mem ber would appeal to the people of England in terms like these. He confessed lie was surprised at the course which the Hou. Member had taken.—( Hear, hear.) What was the object of this Bill ? The sole purpose was to increase the party of the Government, or rather the party of the Hon-and Learned Member for Kilkenny, in Ireland ; it was to give him the no mination, not of forty, but of sixty Members. These were the real objects of the Bill, these the objects which the other House had wisely and manifestly defeated ; and he, as an independent Member of Parliament—(" Oh 1" from the Mi nisterial Benches)—in the name of the people of England-- (" Oh, oh 1" from the same benches)—yes, and in the name of the people of Ireland, too, gave them his hearty thanks for their wise and bold determination to resist the extension of a 'system of indirect nomination, utterly at variaace with the principles of the Reform Bill—a nomination, indeed, which might almost be called direct nomination, since it was the result of intimidation of the most direct and avowed eha racter.—( Hear, hear.) Let the Noble Lord and the Hon. Member for Kilkenny take a word of advice gorn him, Thgt Hon. and Learned Member and his Majesty's Government went along very well, on all-fours, at presew,—(Laughter)— but the time was anxiously wished for by the latter when they should be enabled to do wilhout tile Hon. and Learned Mem ber's assistance, and the moment that time arrived they would cast him and his supporters aside without remorse ; and tell them—what they felt at this moment—that they hated them, though they used them as their tools—pro hac vice.—( Hear, hear.) It was almost impossible, in speaking on this subject, not to take some notice of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, whose peculiar connection with Ireland seemed to identify him with this question—the Hon. and Learned Member for Kil kenny, who still went on in his course, regardless of all cir cumstances, except, indeed, his own, of which he took good care,—(A laugh.) The 11011. Member then deprecated the course of agitation pursuod by the lion. and Learned Meruhef for Kilkenny, as obnoxious to the peace and prejudicial to the true interests of Ireland. Mr. W YSE defended at some length the course pursued by his Majesty's Ministers. It was absurd to say that Ireland could exist without municipal institutions. No country in Europe was without them. Go to Sicily —go to Naples —go to France—to Sweden —to. Denmark—to Prussia—even to Russia--ever. in the States the most despotic municipal insti tutions for the self-government of the people in the various towns and districts, would be found invariably to exist. Ire land could no longer be refused these institutions. They were called for not more by the voice of that country than by the universal voice of Europe. He felt no fear for the ulti mate result of the present contest; for, although he strongly protested in the name of Ireland against all attempts - at unne cessary convulsion, yet he felt convinced that should the con vulsion come, the people must eventually be successful. In the history of the empire, it bad been recorded that Kings had been dethroned, and that Lords bad been devoted use- less—but he found that the Commons of England were im mortal.—(Cheers.) Mr. PRA E D gave the Hon. Member for Waterford credit for sincerity in the views which he had expressed to the House. They had been told by the Hon. Member that if the measure of the Government was rejected the cry for municipal reform would not cease, but it would be coupled with a cry for reform of the House of Lords, and the Hon. Member had expressed himself on that subject in terms loud and strong. To gentlemen of the country to which the lion. Rubber be. longed—much on account of a prevailing feature in the na tional character, and partly on account of a warmth of feeling which, on such a subject as. this, was to be expecte d f ro m them-,lt was ppogetled that they should use st ronger l anguag e than might be expected tp filll from other Members of that House. But from an English Member lie (Mr, 13 1 . 42 d) had Noked for much solid and grave argument AO 4 question which confass4diy i4V4lVeil cOIIstKINEINOS to importftot to the national welfare. The lion. Member for London, however, had dis appointed those expectations. . He would submit to the Hon. Member (Mr. Grote) who had tondescended, in discussing 5 , gly,fp constitutional question, to use language such as no-Enghs4 +tp4 8f tlitit 149 . 13,ie oiiiiht. IR 1i - t tv9 10 on such a su b je Ct —w h o haft coiledidlerfo l ulq o 1- 0 1:4 5 a herd of swine, and had alluded to - a klOtte and Learned k t,,,,q. as their driver—he submitted tq thqt ' Honourable ientbo" whqi ni: 54 0, 1 , , ir t cstiqii 64kb i t to g br a p , ,t,-;ht Ir. fore the fieiise 'inladeiale such ar'tlia2--ivlieoe3rlituer the question ought not to be litiltighe•foriard'in a speCific and Parliamentary fo rm , an d no t in a mann er ca l cu l ated to exc i te . , . e p4t,it'a U 4 prejudices of the peopl e , t ifi4.64,tirq g ;fC?lilit;ei' el tl i t r i"i i 't• Ci4Pi • i l i ll' 4 l uf '9t". - ouse?..--( Hear, !TAP: -. . Mit tii 'fiod.i' :ig il hi e r It Warei.z and in language ford had said that the cry for reform of the House of Lords might be expected, if this measure was refused. Then it be came proper that they should procqed to co n sider w hat was tae Fi:gl position i n w hi c h t h at flous3 was placed as regarded , lkttsQ gpf i4Q1:44, pvo a 119cogs4ry .ing - oclie4 . 4t iu Ole