The Sun. — London, England, 1808-03-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL ,P4RLIAMENI. HOUSE OF PEERS. TUESDAY, MARCH 29.. ORDERS IN COUNCIL. Lord HOLLAAD, in pursuance of his notice, rose and moved the Order on this s,ubjeEt, after which his 'Lordship entered at considerable length into the whole of the conduct of Ministers. towards America, which he censured With great severity. Having 'noticed the injury which had resulted in a commercial point of view to America, and to this Country, trona the operation of the,Orders in Coun 'cil, his Lordship observed, that he deprecated, in a political point of view, the Mischief which must be produced by a perseverance in the present destruaive system, the tendency of which obviously would be to turn the' industry, the interests, and the habits of the democracy of the United States in favour of France. After the battle of Austerlitz, he saw, with the deepest regret, .that the aggressions of France could not be resisted with any effea ; he looked, therefore, with more anxiety than ever to the situ ation of America, from the progressive exertions, independence, and liberty of which, lie anticipated with great satisfaaion something like a counterpoise, in the New World, to the ambition Of Tuonaparte in Europe. Surely it must .afford pleasure to their Lordships to feel conscious that there existed :rare than a hopeof establishing a retreat for freedom, in which it might be seeore from the iron hand of des potisai. He was one of those -who indulged this cheering prospect, until be obServecl• the attacks which Great Britain had made on the United States. This gratifying view,' however, was now reversed, and nothing appeared but despondency and sorrow. Looking at the map of the world, he perceived with "delight, before these pernicous Orders were issued, that Great Britain had been placed,- as it Were, to link the Old and the. New World togetha.; but cut out, at present, from the one by the success of Buonaparte, why should she be the cause, by pni vocation and insult, of excluding herself from the other ? These were awful times, and required, there fore, more than ordinary precaution and wisdom ; but it could not be said that either' marked our pre sent Councils. In consequence of highly estimating the value of our conneiition;with the New World, under the circumstances which he already stated, he rejoiced at the etuigratibn of the Portuguese Govern ment to the Brazils, for it must be clear, to all liberal men in the world, that. the' greater the number of independent States which could be ereeied in the other hemisphere, the surer would be the re-esta blishment' of independence among the States of Eu rope. It was on this account only that he regarded the emigration ot the Prince of Asturias as a benefit to this Country, or at all likely to t)e adyautogeous to the interests ,of the world. Lordship then contended that' the present measure violated the law of nations, and was ruinous to the commerce of this Country. .In support, of this position his Lordship ,referred to the effea produced on neutrals, whose minds must necessarily be alienated from us, and disposed to favour the views of the enemy, in esta blishing what he termed the liberty of the seas, by destroying our supremacy by SO, and the code on which it was 'founded. In every respeed he thought it a measure which ought to be abandoned, instead of being obstinately persevered in. All the argu-, meats which he heard in defence of those Orders Were futile and untenable. If we went to war with America, how could our West India Islands be victualled under any eircomstances, putting even the possibility of scarcity in Great Ethan) out of the ,question ? It was really surprising, that the- experience of the past did not prevent Ministers from hazarding the existence of our Colonies at the' proem moment* Their Lord ships must be aware that , he meant to allude to the .atteiript made shortly after the • United States proclaimed their independence:: at that period this Country prohibited the intrOduCtion of pro visions from Ainerica,to the Wesi Indies—in conse quence, ttimy thousvids of human beings perished for want• of thud. This extravagant and inhuman, conduct on that occasion ought to deter Government from exposing the Colonies now to similar starva tion ; but neither policy; IA iSdain nor humanity,, seemed to, have, an) conneolion wi ll heir measures. The Noble Lord Concluded a long and argunienta-' tive Speech' with . moving four Resolutions, winch,' in faa; wt.ae an epitome of the: Noble Lord's speech, On the first being read, Lord WESTMORELAAD - said,' that he rose, with some reltifiance to address their Lordships, not that he felt any difficulty in replying to the speech of the Nnble Lord Jost at dOwn, however long and elovent, but beCautte• he ,had only to oiler. such argument as they had heard over and over on this subject. His.Lardship then entered into a chro nological view ;of the measures of the present and last Administrations,' in the course of which his Lordship displayed great accuracy, and on the whole, interred, from a comparison of the cards produced, that if America felt herself insulted; it must be in consequence of the Orders issued by the late Administration. . Lord AtiCKL,IND vindicated the measures of the }.ties Administration, on the old ground of for- bearatce towards America. His Lordship likewise observed, that though Buonaparie issued Decrees calculated to injure out Commerce, and also that of Neutiais, .yet that he suspended the execution of them until we, by the present Orders., had provok ed him to yetaliation'; we talked of 'retaliation, but i n fad we were substantially aggressor, on the rights and independehce of Neutral Powers. Lords DARNLEY and LaupeltbaLe. deprepted the line pursued by the other side, whose invariable rule was .to defend their own measures by censuring those of their predecessors in office. If the conduct of the late Ministers Was censurable, let it be con demned ; but surely it was no justification of bad measures now that any 'preceding Ministers had committed worse atits. It was asserted (said Lord Lauderdale) that the Ethbargo was not laid on in America in consequence of the late. Orders in Council, because the account of their hating segued could not have been received in :time t o be the ground of any such measure. It would ,he re collected, however, that, independently of any other means of intelligence which America' Might have, an 'Abstract of a material part of these - Orders . Was published in the newspapers,sevet al days before they came officially before. the Lord MULGRAPE asserted, that the Orders in • Cbuncil had'operated as much in the line of retalia tion as could be reasonably expeaed. They - had distressed our enemies to the, extreme, and there fore ought to be persisted in, mtil the enemy should thew a disposition to moderation. From his own . knowledge he could aver, that in France sugar and other articles of colonial produce had lately increased in price more than 400 per cent. Lord GREA VILLE, in a speech of considera ble length, adverted to di ff erent observations that had been made by Noble Lords opposite on some of the aots of the Administration -to which- he had lately the honour to helongc . He said; that the Orders in Council afforded just cause of complaint and resistance to every independent State, and chal lenged Ministers to shut a single case where the French Decree had been, inforced , against subje6ts of the United States of America. The embargo at present laid On American • Ships, be was certain, was adopted, as a measure calculated to save them from becoming prizes to this Country, in the event of hostilities being commenced. He again asserted, that the American Government had bad ample time to know the particulars of the Orders in Council be fore the embargo was laid. Lord 114WKESEVRY, in the course of an able and argumentative , speech, adduced the various leading topics adverted to the discussion of the American question. He contended, that .a principle of conciliation, nay of concession, characterised all the alts of his 'Majesty's present , Governmeet,. with regard to, the States. In the affair of the Chesapeaite, the caudal of the British Officers was instantaneously declared to have been unauthorized by his Majesty's Government. With respe& to the, I Treaty, on which. so much had been said, he contended that, in etlea, the American Oovcrnment had refuSed to ratify it. They by no means clos ed the door against negotiatio n ; they w e re o n ly adverse to negotiating on the basis of a Treaty concluded by the British Ministerg, but which' was afterwards not ratified by-the Government et the States—it Was on that, principle they proceeded; Noble Lords eppo, site were right in the idea, that no instruolions, respe&ing the Orders in Council bad been sent to the Envoy Extraordinary to the State; but to his Majesty's regular and, stationary Representarive: in America (Mr. Erskine), ample and commenSurate -instructions had been, sent containing the determi • nation and - sentiments of the British Government Upon the occasion ; these were in the true spirit of conciliation, and he .entertained: ttron e e - hopes would produce a corresponding elle& in the decision of the American Governineet. Finally', he observed, it , was the intention of his Majesty's Ministers, to. make every 'effort - for the preservation of peace and amity with the United States, consistently with the honour and the general interests of the Country. -Lord HOLLAND said a tew words, When the (plea der) was put and negatived.- Contenta 53 ; Non- Contents 20 Majori ty ' • eB.--Adjounted at' One o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. ' -TUESDAY, MARCH 29. Committees were chosen by . ballot to'try anti'de termitic the merits of the Petitions complaining of the late . ElMions and ' Returns for the County of Sussex and the 'Borough of - Christchura;. ' The folloWing Gentlemen comßpse. the Committees: SUSSEX COMMITTEE. R. Bradshw, Esq. .W. lel', Esq. Lord V. Pollington. T.,Stanstifot th, Esq. I. H. Loftus, k sq. I, Hudson, Esq. Lurd Viscount Et rington, R. Long, q. R. T. Stuart, Esq. C. Lemon, Esq. Henry Bankes, Esq. : I Hon, W. Howa d. Bogert 'Thornton,_ Esq, Norrunecs—kight Hon. G. Tiernty and las. Gr4tam, Esq. CU It IsTenuRCH'COMMITTEE.. lames Dawkins, Esq. Charles Jenkins )1, Esq. lion. R. Curzon, Esq. Thomas Graham, Esq. Henry Thornton, E,q. Thomas Whitwore, Esq. •T. G. F.stcoutt, Esq. john Baker, Esq. , • • . ' 'oho Fane. Esq. Cecil Forrester, Esq. • :r• G‘t. , rge Pocock, Esq. ' I 13. turner, Esq. Lord C. Somerset Manners. Nominces—Hon. (as. Abercromby ana Rich. Portinan,Esq, The He tise . was ordered to be called over o Thursday, and the customary Ballot Orders fiked for that day. BLDDULPH gave notice, that 'he should to morrow submit a motion to the House, on the sub je& of the Constitution of the Finance Committee sitting above stairs. His motion would relate to the name of a 'Number of that Committee, who, since his appointment upon it, had accepted:an oflice of profit, that of Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means. He proposed in the event of the HottSe being of opinion that the name of that Gentleman ought not to stand upon the List elite committee, to mole that the name of the Hon. JOHN WARD be sgbstituted for it. Mr, DusoAs, we' understood him, applied to an Hon. Member (Sir Thomas 71'urton), who had fixed a motion relative to the Poligar Question, for Tuesday, the 12th of April, to deter that a short time, on the ground of convenience aria accommo dation. Sir THOMAS TURTOk had no objeßion to defer his motion till after the _Recess, 41114 only begged drGentlerncn to read the Papers on the Jable, in order that • they might come prepared to the dis.= Cussion. On being called upon to fix some day, the Hon. Baronet first named the 26th of ,April, bnt after a few obervations from some Gentlemen on the oppobite, side of the House, the motion was fixed for did second Monday after the Recess, being ,the 2,.! of May. GLneral STEWART gave notice, that he should to morrow make A motion for putting off the considera tion of the Donegal Petition, Mr.' HUSK ISSON presented an Amount of all Sums of Money which had been drawn by virtue of Treasury. Warrants out of the funds in the hands of the Receiver of Woods and Forests.---Ordered to lie on the table. 'The ludittment Bill, and the Orders in Council Indemnity Bill, were read a second time, and order ed to be committed to-rriorrow. Chdered, on the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND, that there be laid before the Ho wi e Copiei of.the Proceedings of the Commissioners of Public Records, so far as the same relate to Scotland. Ordered, on the motion of Mr. HIIERISSOK) that a ebilltllittee be appointed to prepare Estimates of the Expeiwt. of the Pay and Cloathing of the Militia of Great Britain and Ireland. Mr. WHITBREAD put off his Motion for Papers which stood for Friday, to Monday next. On the motion' of the CHANCELLOR of the Ex- CUEQU,t it was ordered, that the further eqnsidera tint) of the Petitions 'against the Orders in Council, and the hearing of Counsel upon the same, be put off to Friday.' DANISH FLEET. Lord FO LKSTO NE nose, - pursuant to notice, to submit a motion to the. House on the subject of the Danish Fleet. He ditisnot feel it necessary to tres pass at any length on the time of the House. The obje& of his motion was, that the Danish Fleet captured last autumn should, be kept, in such a state that it might be restored to that Power at the con clusion of Peace. He had. been one of those who approved of the E xpedition, to Copenhagen, but he would confess that in the discussions which had taken place in that Houie his opinion had been shaken, less by the arguments of those who opposed the measure, than by the frivolous defence set up by Ministers, which differed from the statement Qt his Majesty's Declaration. But, under the present cir cumstances, he was not diSposed to express his dis approbation of the measure.. It had been justified by the emergency ; but when that emergency shall have ceased, it would be injustice not to restore the Fleet. When the Expedition sailed, a proposal had been .4nade to negociate for the possession of the Fleet; and as the preposition was such as no inde pendent'Power would agree to, and as the refusal led to the adoption of stronger measures for obtain ing the possession of the Fleet, he thought it ,would be unjust tbatthe fans of such refusal,.whieh no in dependent Power could mold, should place Den- Mark in a worse situation, with respea to its Fleet, .than if the original proposal had been acceded to. Another cause fur his motion was; that otherwise a suspicion might be entertained in Europe, that the proposal had been made only as a pretext for seiz ing the Dinish' Fleet, when the only crime imputed to Denmark had been her • inability to resist the power of France. He had first intended to move, as more consonant to his own wishes, that an Ad dress should be presented to, his, Majesty, praying that he might issue a Declaration stating his .inten t ion to restore the Fleet on a Peace, buras that course did not meet the approbation of , other Gentlemen, he was induced to adopt the present mode. He therefore moved, that an humble Address be pre sented to his Majesty, &c. The Address concluded, with a prayer that the Danish Fleet may be re tained in such a state, as that it might be restored when the situation of allairs would atlbrd a hope that this Meet would nut add to the naval force of the Enemy. On the question being pelt, Mr. BRAND regretted that the attendance Was so thin upon. so important a question. He took that opportunity of repeating what be had stated on- a . former occasion, that the Expedition was justifiable upon every principle of the laws of nature and na , tions.,. There were not 'any precedents to be found; because the situation of this Country and of Europe Was unparalleled in history. But as the necessity of the case justified a belligerent in taking from a weaker Power those means that might be employed by a dangerous enemy.against it, tie thought that in jus tice the fieet-should be restored when that necessity shbuld cease. It ever Buonaparte's ambition should settle into moderation, benevolence, and justice—if ever we, should have another Peace of Westphalia to settle, and adjust the indepeudence.of the nations of Europe, then this Country would be bound by what it owed to justice; and those favourabte priuciples which had raised it to its present greatness, to :thew the world that she had not seized the Danish Navy from any motives of violence, by restoring it to Den mark ; and . he was sorry that some decloration to that etfai had net'been introduced into his Al.:jesty'sifor tiler Declaration. Mr. SdMUEL THORNTON was,'of opinion, that.if Denmark had,agreed to the proposal made , at first, this Country would have been bound to restore the fleet. But as a state of war had succeeded, and we - had obtained possession of the fleet by military operations, Great Britain had the same right as any other belligerent to retain what She had acquired by force of arms. Besides it was perfectly unknown what might be the relations of the two countries at the end of the war; or' what might be the disposition of his Majesty's Ministers upon this subje c Any Declaration, therefere, would be imprudent, and for these reason t he could not agree to the motion of the Noble Lord: ' - Sir THOMAS TURTON.objeEted to the motion of the Noble Lord, beeause the effea of it, if agreed to, would be to pledge the country to the restoration of the Danish Fleet. He contended that the Reef had been ,taken in consequence of the weakness of Dt;umark, we if that had been the case, he would admit that would be bound to restore.it tna weak and innocent neutral. But he referred to several circtunstanccs in the eonduCt of Denmark from the commencement of the French Revolution, to shew that she bad been in a gate of covered hostility to this country, and of abject subserviency to France, and contended that she had been prepared to go to war with this country, and .would have joined the confederacy against , it in ,a • very shore time. The advantages of the ,capture of the DaniSh Fleet were not to be estimated by-the value of the sixteen hulks as they had been called, in pounds. shillings and pence, but as that operation broke one of the links of the chain of the Northern Confederacy. He was sure his Majesty's Administration would, at the conclusion of peace, consider the circumstances at tending the capture of this Fleet and be disposed to a& accordingly. He gave the Noble Lord every credit for the patriotic views with whicli he had brought forward his motion, , but could not agree to any Declaration upon this subject, which -would_ authorise the enemy to say, in the event of a nego tiation, that this was a question not to be discussed in it. -• Mr. DAMS GIDDY supported the Address, not that he thought the restoration of the ships due to Danmark as a matter of right : but that he thought it an n& of . generosity becoming and incum bent on the charafter of the British nation. Mr. 11(./L4ERFORCE professed himself one of those who thought that Minismrs had conscientious ly ,find ably discharged their duty towards the couo trys, in taking possession of the Danish Fleet. He Was satisfied they were aware of all the obje6tions in point of morality; but that a paramount duty had compelled their to over-rule those objections. He would not allow that any consideration of time or circumstances warranted a deviation from the great principled o,f inorality. In the Expedition to Co. penbagen there was no such deviation. A superiot duty had out - weighed a lesser ; and that was itself one of the fir* principles of moral duty and moral reasoniry The transactions with respea to Portu gal ltur , :lved the same principles, and the result made no difference. It might have been said that Portu gal Obeid be controuled by force, and. that Den mark might have accepted the proffered alternative efarnity and proteaion. Denmark was unwilling to take any 'measure. whatever of defence against France • and if she bad been willing, all she could have d one would have been ;inadequate. It was 'therefore perfealy allowable in. us, to - secure'the arms, which, if threat's' against us, may be danger ous. But he was unwilling to 'tarry violence . be-' yond what the necessity of the case required. He would not have the high charmer of the Nation sunk, by shewing a disposition to retain a valuable possession; whets the exigency that caused us to seize that possession should have passed away. He wished therefore, to take no step with respect to the 'application of the ships, which may make it matter of difficulty for his Majesty to restore them, when circumstances should render that proceeding 'petted ly consistent with the public safety. The naval and . military officers may be compensated as they usu ally were, by a compensation from the public purse. He wished to prove to Denmark, and to the world, that we were aauated by no feeling of interest in' taking the Danish Fleet ; and that the,Fleet would be given back, if the independence of Denmark should be again established. Mr. HAWKINS BROWNE saw abundant evi, depce of a hostile mind towards thii Country on the part of Denmark, and thought the Ships were as much lawful prizes as if they bad been taken in open war on the high seas. Mr. BeiBIAGTON did not understand any of his Majesty's Ministers to assert, that Denmark wat, hostile to Britain previous to the Expedition to Co penhagea. He 'thought this declaration a strong pledge to deliver up the Danish Fleet in the event of , peace He wished some verbal: alterations .to be made .in the Address; but if the Noble Lord who moved the Address had any obje&ion, he should not press them. kie wished to give the world a proof that we were a&nated by no narrow consider ation of interest, but that we aged from the indis pensable obligation of what we owed to our own security. Mr. SlMEOilti thought it Would be. wrottg to fetter the discretion of the Crown by a Resolution of the House, which may have a premature and initl" rious influence. He blamed the Danes that they had made no release of ,British prisoners, in return for the multitude of Danish prisoners sent from thi ' Country. • Mr. BATHURST was astonished to hear it 0 ' serted by an Hon. Gentleman on the other side (Mr. HaWkins Browne), that there was as perfect a right to retain and dispose of the Danish Flee s t as if it bad been taken in open hostility on the high seas. TO- Skips were laid up, and the Danish Army was at that opposite extremity of the Danish territories, when the Expedition to Copenhagen took place. He was. averse to any use of the Danish Ships which may ex' ; pose them to haiard that may eventually prevent our being - able to restore them. As to the coin• plaint with respea to the inadequate exchange of prisoners, it,arost. hom the same cause which occa' sioiled so many of our countrymen to be kept in car tivity in France. At Ihe commencement of the war we detained a number of Ships with their crews, and France retaliated as Britain did now, by making pri"., soners , of all the British subje&s in her territory.-- 4 • The difficulty of exchange was in our unwillingness'. to allow the persons so detained to be fair prisoners of war.. He thought it essential that we should maintain our national charaCter for magnanimity and generosity, and therefore he thought no step ought to be taken with respea to these Ships which• would prevent our restoring them in as good condi tion as we got them when a proper opportututY should arise. Mr. 'STEPHENS considered the House to h ave pronounced so frequently, anti in a recent instance so decidedly in favour of the justice of t h e Expedi tion to Copenhagen, that it would be waste ut time The propriety of retaining possession of to offer any arguments co that point at present...* the Ships under existing circumstances was also The fad, that Denmark was at war with us , w as 3 sufficientjustification for that detention, withou t go ing into the question whether she was willingly at war or not. He wished not to insist on any BO vated construction of the rights of war against D en : mark. But he contended, that if Denmark Deng given up her Fleet on an obligation to restore if the event of . peace between France and Englan d ' and Denmark afterwards had declared war against England, the obligation to restore the Fleet.would have become void. Still he was not disposed to den)! that Denmark had great claims on our generosity, when the proper time for consideriog 31.301 claims should arrive. But so had Holland, and so had, Spain, at the peace Of Amiens, and yet we found it proper to take Ceylon frOm the one and T rinidad horn' the other.i What' objectof negociation could be attained with respea to Denmark , if a t this mo• ment we pledged ourselves to an unconditional res., titution of this Fleet. As to the argument of main taining an exalted character by this resolution, be thoaght the contrary would be the result of it. We had artful Enemy ready to put the worst con:. strOtion upon our ads, and that enemy would ac .. 3 fail to say that our apparent study of rna g nann l was intended merely to gloss over what was in la grossly criminal. It was possible that when pea ce should come to be treated that Denmark niight ha ve obtained advantages at the expeuce of Sweden , even of this Country, for which the Danish Flee& may be an equivalent. In these views, it would . 10 highly injurious to come to any resolinien as to t ,1 0 future disposal of that Fleet, and the eruploYnlen the Ships for the public service , would b y no mean' embarrass the future discretion of t he Crown' re' speCting them. of the Sir JAMES HALL spoke shortly in favour - Address, On a A; t ti l3 The question was then ca' led fcr. m'v• - there appeared-- For the Motion - - - zvt Against it - - - - i 05 6 i MA jOilly . ..._ half Fai t Strangers were not re-adtuithti i ate. , At Dille thc, House i!djourriod.