The Sun. — London, England, 1836-05-07 00:00:00

I mouse, advocates for the entire repeal of the duty, who would running into such wild schemes as, unfortunately, they some much rather that the whole of the duty should ba preserved, times found instances of. If, at the prevent moment, any than that it should be reduced to the amount to winch I pro- such schemes existed, he believed that in the course of a very pose to reduce it. They believe, no doubt, that a penny. few months there would be an end to them. He wished that duty will be more injurious to the unlimited license of the the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken the trouble to bring be press than the amount of duty as it now stands. For my part fore the House the great increase which had taken place in lam convinced that in three years a larger amount of revenue the import of almost every article on which • i e t e h f era h • i l l i o a l d da b r e ti e e n le a s will be derived from the penny duty than front the duty at its decrease of duty. The increase thoughtosom t present amount. I believe a duty of a penny to be a reason- was perfectly enormous. out . an able duty ; and one that I have a reasonable chance of carry- encouragement to the ouse to reduce all shoul d those taxes which lug ; and, therefore, whatever objections may be made to that had been imposed during the iar, and the c on t inuance o r a hii 1 duty by th e t wo o pp os i te part i es, I shall persevere with it, operated in a direct and powerfulv manner to check and impede Unless I fi n d t h e H ouse a d verse to the proposition It is a the commerce and manufactures of the country. _( il ea , prop os i t i on w hi c h I b r i ng forward for the purpose ' of raisin g The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to say one or two words in reply to some of the observations the revenue ; of defeating the existing opposition to the law ; of which had fallen from the lion. Member for Aliddlas ' preventing the law, the authorities of the coin& e, aad the I l ion Gentleman had asked why he (the Chancellor 'ofext'he ThatE- Government front being brought into contempt ; and of de fendMg the fair trader, who is now exposed to a most unjust e ie , quert . did not repeal the Whole of the duty on glass ? In repiyto that questio, he could onl state hat the general competition. If these are not grounds fur submitting my pi•o principle upon which he had acted wag to reduce the dies , to Position to Parliament, I know not what are. Aly proposition, therefor e , i s t o re d uce t h e newspaper stamp duty front its pre- such a rate as not injuriously to pr ess upon any particular -ma sent amount of fourp ence , m i nus t h e di scount, to a penny. _ nu,teture, but at the same time to continue so much of it as b y ( Hear, h e a r . " Wh en to commence ?") I propose the reduc tion to commence on th e sth o f J u l y . S uch had been the re- annak increasedconsumption of the ar ti c l e manu f actured should - for the dficiency whi c h wou ld otherwise be oc commendation of individual s connecte d w e t ith, and inter es t e d i n , l asio e ne l d M in the revenue. T w here as one other topic to whi c h the r egu l ar p ress . Th e total loss to the Rev enue w hi c h I ant i - he wished to refer. . The Hon. Gentleman seemed to think cipate in the present Year, front the reduction, is 150,000/. But that the observations which lie (the Ch ance ll or o f the Excite that will be cons id era bl y di m i n i s h e d b y the increase in the pro- query had made with respe c t t o the spirit of speculation whi c h duce of the paper duti e s w hi c h t h e augmente d consumption of at Present existed implied a n apprehesion on his part of so me Paper m us t occas i on ; an d a l so b y the increase in the number imi)endinrs calamity. That was not the case. But it in re f newspapers and th e n um b er o f a d vert i sements. This is one f:r, country, rit b a he had not at t h e same time stated that which he to the general prosp er ity w hi c h now seemed to pervade o of th e i nstances to w hi c h I a ll u d ed i n a former part of my sp eec h, the of co ncess i on i n a quarter, from which concessi o n compensat i on believed to be true, that there were circumstances connected in other points may be expected. I am afraid, however, that with the spirit of speculation now generally abroad which I must resist the applic a ti ons w hi c h h ave b een made entirely ought not to create apprehension on and vigilance P of Parliament—if.ension or a''arm lie had not done this,, but to excite the to repeal th e s t am p d uty on I r i s h newspapers. In the first attention place, I am makin g a l arge re d uct i on i n t h at duty by reducing he thought he might ver y f a i r l y b e accused of having neglected it from two-p ence f art hi ng to a penny. I n the second place an important p a rt o f th e d uty w hi ch attached to one filling the that penny can b e cons id ere d on l y as a moderate postage. mportant and responsible situation which be did.--( Hear.) Ever, if the whole of the duty on Irish newspaper stamps were Mr. G 0 ULB UR N inten aed to conform with what ap repealed, the proprietors would not be able to reduce the price Peered to be the general feeling of the House, and with what . he considered the best practical mode of dealing with th e sub of their papers a penny. I i n t en d, h owever, to propose a re duetin nin the duty on adverti sements i n I r i s h newspapers; jest before them, and to abstain f rom enteriws into any detail leaving the stamp duty the same as that on th e E ng li s h news- on the various points which the Right Hon. Gentleman had papers. It is my intention also to propose a reduction in the suggested with resp ec t t o t h e repea l o f d ut i es, until each in insurance duty on farm building s , ex t en di ng to some dcscrip- dividual subject was brought in a proper shape before them. tions of stock, which will probably come to about 20,000/. ; as He knew from experience that the attention of that House also in some of the duties on taxed carts, amounting perhaps would never be given to any question which was not broueht , to 5,0001. The total of the repeals which I propose, I esti- before it in a palpable and tangible shape; and, therefore, mate at 351,0001. in the present year, and 520,000/. when av) on that ground al one , h e s h ou ld f or b ear f rom entering into they a ll come into acti ve o p era ti on . B ut, Si r, i t is well the various questions to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had known that in proportion as th e t axa ti on upon any art i cle i s eferred. Th ere was , h owever, one part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech u p on which he thought he might be decreased, the consumption of that ar ti c l e i s i ncrease d . I t ex is not, therefore, to be apprehended that the revenue will cused for making one or two observations, because a subse eventually and actually lose the sum of 520,0001., even in quest opportunity of doing so would not be afforded him. the second year of the operation of the repeals ; but I With the views which he (Mr. Goulburn) entertained upon think it prudent to make that my estimate of the loss. the Report, he thought it particularly desirable that whenever On the subject of marine insurances I have not been able they had before them the financial statement of the Chancel.. 1 to obtain ii:formation sufficiently accurate to justify me in ler of the Exchequer, and when they were called upon to 1 making any proposition on the subject ; and indeed when consider how they should deal with the surplus, and what it is recollected that the surplus is only 660,000/., and amount of surplus should be allowed to remain— when these that I propose to repeal 350,0004 leaving a margin of only matters were brought under their consideration, he always 300,000/., I think it will be generally ad m itt e d th at I s h ou ld thought it advisable to remind the House, that in addition to not be warranted in going any further.—(Hear, hear, hear.) the duty which was imposed upon them of giving the utmost On these grounds I trust the House will rece i ve t h e state - relief in their p ower to t h e su ff er i ng o f any particular class, ment which I have made to it nith favour. They are not or to the pressure upon any particular class arising from taxa called upon to come to any specific vote t o n i g ht. All I re.. tion—( Hear)--th e y h a d yet a d uty more urgent, in his quest Hon. Gentlemen to do is seriously t o cons id er w h at may view, and one from w hi c h th ey oug h t never for a moment to shrink—that of considering the ns ees , ity of providing, not be the consequence of maintaining the Newspaper Stamp go . only for present means and present convenience, but of Duty at its present amount. I ask those who may wish to ing what was the state of that great debt which pressed upon regard further on that point to consider the impracticability of doing the country, lightly now, perhaps, in moments of ease and so, and to remember that great good will result from going comparative prosperity, b u t w hi c h, i n more difficult and tem so far, Sir, I regret having occupied so lar ge a p ort i on o f the time of the Committee, and I am quite a ware o f t h e d u l - pestuous times, if n o t p ro p er ly atten d e d to now, m i g h t press tress of my statement. But I preferred a plain an d un - upon the nation with a we i g ht scarce l y to b e supported.— ( Hear, hear.) If he (Mr. Goulburn) found an y f au l t w i t h adorned exposition of the public income and ex p en dit ure , and of the general financial condition of th e coun t the statement of th e Ri g ht H on . G ent l eman, i t was t h at he ry, ite- to had passed over all re f erence t o t h at quest i on i n one single ment.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But I cannot s it d awn with any address that might possess more o f nove l ty and exc sentence, and merely told the House that the Na t i ona l D e b t out repeating, that while we have e ver y reason to b e had undergone a re d uct i on b y thin conversion of it int o termi nable annuities.---( Hear, hear.) But when they looked back, gratified with the present prosperous c on di t i on o f t h e coun- A try, th ere are i n di ca ti ons i n t h a t con di t i on w hi c h call for as they ought to d o , a t thi s mo d e o f d ea li ng w i th the debt, the exercise of prudent vigil ance on t h e part o f every they must bear in mi n d h ow sma ll a proportion the terminable Honourable Gentleman. In the gen era l commerc i a l exc i te- annuities bore to the m ass o f t h e d e b t w i t h w hi c h t h ey had to !tent, in the general spirit of specul a ti on , its the increase in deal—( Hear, hear)— an d t h ey must a l so ta k e i nto view, that the number of banks, and of vari o u s h azar d ous un d erta ki ngs whilst they consid ere d th e re d uct i on o f t h e f un d ed debt, they , Hon. Gentlemen must see ci r c ums t ances w hi c h require their must not forget th e annua l i ncrease o f t h e un f unded debt.— (Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Goulburn) having b e f or e hi m vigilant attenti o n. I d o no t a pp re h en d any very extensive evil fro m th e c i rcums t ances to w hi c h I a ll u d e; b ut although the finance account s f or t h e l ast fi ve years, h a d ta k en t h e trouble to draw out a statement of the progress which, during they do not justify alarm, they certainly justify,. as I have al that period, had been made in the reduction of the debt. He ready observed, a prudent vigilance. Sir, I had nearly for gotten one thing which, if I had absolutely forgotten it, the found front those papers, that in 1831 the total charge of all the Hon. Member for Exeter would never h ave f org i ven me . I t debt, including the in t eres t on th e f un d e d d e bt, w h a t was p a id is that, I shall be prepared to repeal the additi ona l d u ty o f of terminable annuities, and what paid for unf u nd e d d e bt, amounted in round numbers to 28,350,0001. In 1836, taking -So per cent. on spirit licenses, taking as an equivalent the in the account which had that day been printed and placed in creased consumption of spirits which will thereby be pro their hands, and which, perhaps, did not present an exact duced. It has been said that the duty on spirit licenses presses analogy, being made up to the quarter ending in January in unequallv:and unfairly, and it is therefore that I relinquish it ; stead of that ending in April, but which lie was obliged to re but I hope that those who are of that opinion will aid me in sort to, having no other—by that account, he observed, that obtain!ng the compensation which I have in view. Sir, I thank the Committee for their great patience and indulgence, the total amount of th e c h arge o f t h e d e b t l ast year was I feel that I have pressed heavily on those qualities ; but I 28,784,000/., being an i ncrease i n t h e c h arge o f t h e de b t s i nce have no alternative. I will now move my fir s t reso l u ti on . If the year 1831, of upwards o f 400,0001. ; an d t h at not inelud ing the annual interest on th e W est I n di a L oan. T h i s in it should b e co nsidered i n f orma l t o a d opt i t un d er the ch.- c Cumstances, you, Sir, can report p rogress , an d o b ta i n l eave to crease in the charge of the d e bt, t oo , it must b e o b serve d , h a d sit again ; o th erw i se it i s one upon w hi c h t h e C omm i ttee may taken place notwithstandin g th e a d vantages w hi c h t h e Go at once de c id e . --(H ear .) vernment had enjoyed since th e y ear 1831, o f re li ev i ng t h e The rer o l ut i on was th en p ut f rom t h e c h a i r _ country of an annual burd en o f 50,0001., by a reduction of the Mr. DIVETT had not b een sangu i ne enoug h to expect Four per Cents., and also by ano the r o b ta i ne d" from the altered the repeal of th e whole of th e l a t e a ddi t i ona l d uty on sp i r i t bargain with the Bank of E ng l an d o f 100.0 00 /. Wi t h al l licences; but if the these advantages th e y w ere now a b ou t 450,0001., worse t h an state of the revenue would permit such a ?eduction it would be the means of removing a well-grounded they were in the y e ar 1831. This w as a p o i nt to w hi c h h e cause of complaint. , , a tnougnt tne attention of the House ought a l wa y s t o b e Mr. E WART and Mr. PR YME severally put questions directed. They had been constantly and were s till cons t an tly to t:ie Chancellor of the Exchequer, with reference t o some in the habit of i ssu ing annually an augmentati on o f E xc h e - Part of the statement he had just made ; but the qu e sti ons quer Bills, and th e nce in a great degree arose the increased themselves, as well as the answers to them, were totally charge which h e wa s anxio us t o p o int ou t, in o rder that steps inaudible. might be taken for its reduction. In 1831 the unfunded debt Mr. HITME was also for some time inaudible, in conse- amounted to 25,600,0001. I n th e p resen t year it amounted to about 29,000,000/., being an i ncrease s i nce t h e year 1831 o f quence o f' the noise occasioned by Members leavin g th e douse. Upon the whole he thought that the details into 3,400,000/. He begged th e H ouse t o un d ers t an d th a t h e did Which the Right Honourable Gentleman had entered must not wish to interf ere with th e course w hi c h t h e G overnmen t adapted in issuing Ex c h equer Bill s ; b ut w h at h e con -1,3e most gratifying to the House. No part of the statem e nt tended for was thi s , th at as t h e repayments came b ac k , had be en m ore satisfactory to hint (Mr. Hume) than that i n , House ought to see th at t h ey were app li e d to t h e re tne Which t h e Ri g ht Honourable G en tl eman had poi n t e d out duction of the d e bt.—(C r i es o f °' Hear.") Then, with respect advantag e s which had arisen in consequence of the repeal o f to the terminable an n uiti es . In the year 1831 the quantity the d u t y u p on beer. The Right Ho noura ble Gentlem an h a d stated that the surplus revenue for the present year would of terminable annuities amoun t e d t o 3 , 300,0001. A t t h e :mount to something more than 600,000/. But if there present period it appear e d t h at t h ey amounte d to 4 , 0 7 0,000 1 ., had not been what he (Mr. Hume ) mutt still call a ver y Leong an increase of ve r y near l y 700,0001. H e (M r. Goul burn) thought that in th a t statement o f f acts , w hi c h , as f ar as unnecessary increase in the naval force of 5,000 seamen, the re the papers upon the tabl e o f t h e H ouse cou ld b ear hi m out, would have been a surplus of at least 1,000,000/., of which 40 0,003/. might have been applied to the general reduction of he would undertake to s a y was a f a i r an d correct one, t h ere t axation, No reason whatever had et been assigned were circumstanc e s w hi c h ca ll e d upon t h e H ouse to exerc i se y for the the greatest caution in d ea li ng w i t h any surp l us w hi c h t h e i ncrease of the naval force ; and no one. he apprehended, W ould contend that a reduction of 400,000/. in the amount of Chancellor of the Ex c h equer m i g h t contemp l ate.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the present the proper moment to make a taxation would not be hailed by the country as a great boon. statement of this description, in order k that before they came to It was not his intention at that moment to enter into the ques the discussion of the various repeals of taxation which were to l ion of the tax upon newspapers, seeing that a much better op_ the proposed to them, they might bear in mind how those repeals Portunity would be afforded hereafter ; but lie could not ab- would operate with regard to the views which he had taken of gain from stating that he thought there were many other the subject ; and he hoped, also, that if some lion. Gentlemen taxes,, which could be repealed with much greater advantage. were disposed individually to press for the reduction of parti ,,'he Right Honourable Gentleman had alluded very pro cular taxes, they would not forget the state of things which he Poorly to the unpopularity and difficulty which his pre-deces- had endeavoured to bring under their consideration.—(Hear, c 'l'i Lord Spencer, had to encounter in carrying the law With hear.) respect to any other part of the statement of the into effect with respect to stamped publications, and it was Right Hon. Gentleman, he had only to join in what appeared also true that the steps taken to enforce the law had not to be the general feeling that there was an existing state of j' e an effectual. For two or three years past the prisons presperity in the country which called for mutual congratula u„,fi been filled with victims to the tax upon newspapers. tion, hut which he thought, with the Right Hon. Gentleman, u Pwards of one hundred and fifty individuals had been int- was not such as would warrant any exuberant liberality in ironed for selling unstamped papers; yet, notwithstanding dealing with the finances of th e coun t ry . H e t h oug h t w i t h t he severity of the law, it was found that the sale o f unstamped the Right Hon. Gentleman, that they would be dealing I.),Pers, instead of being diminished, was every day in creas i ng . much more prudently if f o r th e nex t year t h ey ca l cu l a t e d 't Was highly necessary, therefore, that a change should be upon a less prosperous state than that which had sprung up fad e in the law upon this subject with as little delay as pos. between the last and the present year. Having adverted to n. "hle. lie must say, however, that he thought the Right these, which were the main points pressing on his mind, he Tiede Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not had now only to advert for a moment to a matter which Par a very fair statement as to the result that would follow took somewhat more of a personal character, and which arose `L'e repeal of the Duty on Newspapers. Would the House, out of a converaation which took place between the Ri . ght 4 42 , 5 _k05 l the Right Hon. Gentleman, submit to the reduction of Honourable Gentleman and himself on a former occasion, That was out of a source of revenue producing only 600,000/.? when lie (Mr. Goulburn) presented a petition to the House ~4 n at was not a fair statement, because the reduction of the on the subject of the proposed reduction of the Newspaper ale would not, in fact, be 400,000/. The increase in the Goulburn) did not then propose to enter pe of news apers arising from the repeal of the tax would , Stamp. He (Mr. into the question of whether the reduction of that duty would : I d to a corr i esponding increase in the productiveness of the be proper or improper—he would not even advert to the ~,lt,Y on pa er e and this, added to the optional penny-post tax point which he was anxious to bring under the consideration licit it Zs proposed to continue upon newspapers trans- of the House when he presented the petition—all that he dried througli the Post-office, would, -in his opinion, be I wished to do was to reply to an observation then made by the „„ e41 %3' safficient to supply the deficiency occasioned by the Right Honourable Gentleman. The Right Honourable di. of of the Stamp Duty. But he would leave the further Gentleman was understood to accuse the petitioners with %:'•cussion of this topic until the proposition was brought for- 'unfairness in coming before the House with such a complaint 4 44 , (which it most assuredly would be) for the total repeal as that stated in their petition, having had a communication th t "e Stamp Duty on Newspapers. Quitting that subject, with him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) on the subject S te el ls lie wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether of the proposed limitation of the size of Newspapers, and he t o a t bd not think that the whole of the duty upon glass ought having reason to believe that they were satisfied with the I, e repealeu ? He wished the Right Hon. Gentleman to be limitation he proposed. Since the statement of the Right Ito upon that point.----(A laugh.) He wished the Right Honourable Gentleman had gone abroad, he (Mr. Goulburn) had received letters upon the subject from several of the peti the'''. Gentleman would these, what was the cost of collecting I' n '"'ali amount of duty on that article which was still con- tioners. He had one from the editor and printer of the Times, 4 n ,,d•--(Hear.) He - wished the Right Hon. Gentleman in which they stated that they neither directly nor indirectly t r state whether the whole amount of the revenue derived agreed to any proposition for restricting the size of any News-. paper, or authorised or deputed one to communicate with in ' t'."l,that particular source much exceeded the cost of collect the Chancellor of the Exchequer any on the subject. He had 4 a k ‘ti s t_, If it did exceed the cost of collection at all, he was ttu, iti 'u that the excess was . not so great as to warrant . a conti- also a letter from the editor and printer of the Morning Post couched in similar terms. Neither directly nor indirectly had 'shy , of the tax. With regard to the stamp duties gene qatj,;,_urne hoped when ti l e proper time came the Ri g ht Hon. t h ey b een concerned in the proposed measure for limiting the A tb. e er. an would be prepared to state that he contemplated s ize of Newspapers. He (Mr. Goulburn) thought it but ittain7lntedial reduction ; because, as be_ ( I ‘lr. Hu had beenjust that the Right Hon. Gentleman should know the deela !tatha b , a considerable amount would be gained me) to the re- ea tiou of those gentlemen on the subject of their having bee n 'td ti , .Y a reduction. If there were a stamp that required p a rties to any propositions for altering the s ize of Newspapers ; 0i 3 , a t 'un more than any other, it was undoubtedly the stamp and he therefore took the earliest opportunity l of communicat out -aPioe insurances. That tax was not only had in itself, iting to hint the contents of . the !tters le had received.-- 1 4 111 .was the cause of driving the profit and advantage ( h ear .) But before he quitted this subject, he must be per tesiiarlee to from the shores of England, and of trans- mitted to make a few observations on the personalities in which 4 „_ sitl n es it to the maritime countsies of the Continent. It had t h e Right Hon. Gentleman indulged the other night with re `"titr au injurious effect upon the general commerce of the sped 4 hi m (M r . Goulburn).. The Right Hon. Gentleman N. Y. The im olie and injustice of this tax had, how \\, , bee P Y . taxed him, with considerable warmth, for having presented a of limiting the size . of Newspapers, in or e ,_ 0 so well pointed out by the Hon. N . lembar for petition on . the subjeet to tea ',ter, that he (Mr. Hume) should no t t h in k it necessary utter oblivion of his own recorded sentiments upon the sub liot 3 ' xtiore upon the . a that wasion. The Right • Right _Hon. .Gentleman quoted a paragraph %. sze irabi _ _ subjecto . _ f te re e rn t • a and the . % vettl e d ,`e Gentleman the Chancellor . of the ,Exche9uer ' Bill which had been in the litamp-office, and which Pee 1 .`o look with dreadful apprehension at tgss spirit of Is u att on ~ .was left by him (A r. Goulburn) in the Treasury ; in which, ) tial e , %sm e l l no , d t h e coun t r y. He Mr. 4 idoubtedly, there . did stand a clause for reducing the size of I°aß Iccnfeased that .l.e had no fears u certain limits. At the time that the th b 44 the II pon that score. As liesazapers to within h Prince Bunk of En6land continued :0 be conducted on Righta,n isese-a..... ----n r having intended to adopt such 'Hot na-tleman read that paragraph, lie (Mr. Gout se " a l'ks upon which It was now goveaws) there need burn) was so little awnr,e t ~( , .( a, ~„ , , _. 1 -I Ll' '' -1) Issel ' - . • Had tliat es- a limitation, that the first impulse ,01 tt!, p ar nc r was to give a di lasnetisha,ent linenelsion of a crisis or of a am pa e n p ic rinciples in 1826, Uh l e wood o e. li e nave be en no cr i s i s , perhaps no panic, at that rept and positive contradiction to the Sta c leinOt. ta'si suppo t't th e Was quite satisfied that the Waal-ogg si a n ttd t44 t 4 l ' ie allowed f or I (Mr. Goulburn's) own memory s ;', l u P tki lLi i g fr li e t _ 4 l 4 lo te i; ? .. o G l i e s nt , Gentleman z li ii i i,,ec t t h , ()rang ily in v esti ‘tliti.,‘ Ise rt i s e ° w iln try la system through-g must have totally fail (1 WTI ula'sis 4til e .._ e he it - as in a sound and healthy . *4442, I;nd as long sreo , ess,e a';edule 1 4 0 c ould t h compelled t o pay t h e i r no t es in gold t) . 4 471 a n , d, the . moment to pass by. But when her dl r ,t el t sam e IF cno •just ground fora pprehenston or a l arm. tat of duties placed me he should be sorry to see the people generally f oiiiif t ti iii : 4 w f ig f rom a limitation of the size of Newspapers, by him on the table of the House in 1830, he he adopted in that schedule the provisions of the Act of Par liament introduced by Mr. Huskisson, making no limitation whatever, but giving relief to those who published separate Papers as supplements, and giving further relief to those whose papers consisted entirely of advertisements. The schedule thus laid upon the table contained that record of opinion on the subject by which he (Mr. Goulburn) was hound to stand. The Bill from which the Right Hon. Gentleman had quoted was not in fact, before the House—it was in draft; and he ( Mr. Goulburn) certainly did not expect—indeed, he did not think it either right or courteous that a public officer, filling the same situation which he (Mr. Goulburn )had once the ho nour to hold, should avail himself of such means to lead the House to suppose that his opinions were different at one mo ment to what they were at another.—( Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER --The Bill was in print. Mr. GO UL BURN knew that. It was printed, but printed how ? Not by order of the House ; but printed in draft. When it was brought him in manuscript, it was so Ions; and so painful to read that he begged to have it printed draftwise, and in that state it was that it must have fallen into the hands of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Bill was never brought forward, and he begged to state now, once for all, that there were propositions in it, as it was originally drawn and submit ted to him, in which he could not concur.—( Hear.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman meant to make the quotation from the Bill a charge against him, it was really one of a more serious nature than he seemed to think. The Right Hon. Gentleman charged him with an intention of imposing a duty on News papers according to their size. If that were really hi s inten tion, how fraudulently must lie have dealt with the House, hav ing presented to the House a schedule upon the subject, and in that schedule having said nothing whatever about the in tended restriction.—( Hear.) But he would not dwell longer upon the subject. He thought, however, that the House would agree with him, that whatever argument the Right Honour able Gentleman had derived from reference to a Bill printed in draft was worth nothing.—( Hear, hear.) At all events, he (Mr. Goulburn) appealed from the Bill to the schedule which he had laid upon the table of the House. The opinion ex pressed in the schedule upon the subject he should be pre pared, whets the proper time arrived, to maintain, and to shew that the mode in which the Right Honourable Gentleman proposed to deviate from what took place in 1830 with respect to Newspapers, was not advisable for the Press, nor desirable for the country.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman concluded by again directing the attention of the House to the necessity of providing for a reduction of the national debt, before it sought for the application of any great amount of surplus to the reduction of taxation. Mr. ROBINSON concurred generally in the views taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and was happy to find that, notwithstanding the reduction of 8,000,0001. of taxation within the last few years, there would still, but for the amount of interest payable on the money voted for the emancipation of the negroes, have been a clear surplus for the present year, of not less than 1,000,0001. The Right Honourable Gen tleman had, in the course of his observations on the excellent working of the principle of free trade, alluded to the importation of French wines ; but it did not appear to him (Mr. Robinson) that a greater failure, as a finan cial measure, than that of the equalization of the duties on French wines, either in the way of producing an in creased consumption, or of inducing a disposition on the part of the French Government to adopt reciprocal measures, had ' ever taken place. As a commercial man he thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman for the very salutary remarks he had made as to the necessity of caution on the part of those en gaged in trade. He did not take any desponding views of the present state of the country ; nor did he anticipate any reaction ; at the same it was the duty of a financial Minister to remind the country that by possibility some check might be given to the present prosperity, which arose in part, he was afraid, from over-speculation. The Right Hon. Gentleman estimated that the stamp duties would produce next year 7,000,0001., whereas this year they only produced 6,900,000/. ; and yet he proposed a reduction in that duty of upwards of 200,000/. How could the Right Hon. Gentleman entertain this expectation unless he anticipated to make the difference by his arrangements in the new Stamp Act ? There was hardly one clause in that Bill which did not call for the serious consideration of the House before they consented to it. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that whenever a tax became unproduc tive, it was in itself an evidence of the impolicy of the tax. Now he (Mr. Robinson) stated yesterday that although the trade and commerce of the country had gone on increasing, yet the produce of the stamp duty on marine insurances had decreased. He therefore hoped that the Hon. Gentleman would take the subject into his consideration, and propose some reduction of that tax. After all, it appeared that the only reduction of taxes proposed, were those on newspapers, on glass, and on paper. He certainly would never ask for a reduction of taxes below the amount of available surplus re venue, and as other opportunities would be afforded, he would not now do more than generally express his satisfaction with the statement made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and a hone that the resources of the country would go on so improving:as to admit of a further reduction of taxation, by which its in dustry and commerce might be promoted. Sir ROBERT PEEL intended to follow the example so wisely set by the Gentlemen who had spoken in the course of this slight discussion, because he thought it exceedingly wise to interpose some interval between hearing the financial state ment of a Minister of the Crown, from which they ascertained the amount of surplus revenue that could be fairly applied in the reduction of taxation, and of pronouncing any conclusive opinion in debate, as to the taxes which ought - to be selected for reduction. Assuming that there were 500,000/. or 600,000/., which might be fairly applied in the remission of taxes, he should like to have an opportunity of referring to the very valuable information collected by the Commis sioners of inquiry into the state of the Excise Laws, for the purpose of forming a comparative view of the whole subject oftaxation, and of ascertaining by what mode they might avail themselves of the small amount of surplus in the most effectual manner, for the purpose of decreasing the burdens of the people, and of increasing the productive industry of the country. The glass duty, the paper duty, the soap duty, and one other duty which had not been adverted to by the Right Hon. Gentleman, but which he (Sir Robert Peal) should be glad to have the opportunity of fully considering__ namely, the duty levied upon the importation of raw cotton-- ( Hear, hear)—all these various points he should now avoid pronouncing any opinion upon ; but having made up his mind as to the surplus available, he should at a future opportunity give his opinion as to what were the taxes most prudent to reduce. He felt the force of the observation made by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Goulburn) that in time of peace we were not making any rapid progress in the reduction of the Na tional Debt ; while we were increasing our unfunded debt, which, in a time of difficulty, might press with peculiar severity upon the country. These were considerations which ought never to escape the attention of that House ; and before the House dealt too liberally with respect to a surplus revenue, lie hoped that those subjects would engage their serious atten tion. But with regard to the duty on the importation of raw cotton, he would just state, that in the year end ing sth of April, 1835, the duty collected upon that article, which undoubtedly was one of the main sources of the prosperity of the country, amounted to 374,000/. ; and in the year ending the sth April, 1836, the amount levied was 400,000/. ; being, he believed, only one-sixteenth of a penny in the pound. But it behoved the !Louse to bear in mind, that the manufactures of this country were exposed; and, so long as peace continued, they would be exposed to foreign competition. He, therefore, would say, that to levy such a duty as 400,000/. upon a raw material which formed the staple of our chief manufac tures, while, on the one hand, no advantage could be gained from so small a revenue, on the other, we should be must dearly punished, if, by retaining it, we should lay the foundation for an increasing and successful competition by foreign countries, was unwise. —(Loud cries of .‘ Hear, hear, hear I".) With his views as to the necessity of maintaining public credit inviolate, and as to the impolicy of making no provision whatever for the interruption of that pro sperity the country was now enjoying, and, deprecating, as he did, the approach to that state of things by which they might incumber themselves with a new debt, he could not certainly press for a remission of a tax to so large an amount as the total reduction of the tax upon raw cotton ; but he should rejoice to see its amount reduced as low as possible, so as not to war rant unnecessarily any competition in that imp or t an t b ranc h ; of trade. He also wished to reserve to himself an opportu-' nity of considering whether, in dealing with so small an amount of surplus revenue, it might not be better to remit the duty altogether on one article, than to make a remission of a por tion of the duty on two or more articles ; whether, for in stance, the total absence of all Excise regulations with respect to glass might not be made the foundation of a very extcnsiye manufacture in this country, and a very prosperous source of wealth, by our becoming manufacturers of an article which was now chiefly carried on by other countries. There was one point to which lie thought his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Goul burn) had intended to call the attention of the House, which was—the policy of increasing the exportation of beer (as we understood the Right Hon. Baronet to say). There did seem to be a prospect of a very great increase in that branch of our export trade; and whether they might not further increase it, by some regulation with respect to allowing a drawback, was worthy of consideration. He differed from the Hon. Gentle man the Member for Middlesex, as to the impolicy of the observation made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in that tone of caution and warning which he assumed when speaking of the present state of prosperity in the country. It was infinitely more becoming the station of a finance Mi nister to adopt the language and tone of caution, than the tone and language of unbounded confidence.—( Hear, hear.) At the same time, he (Sir Robert Peel) saw great cause for congratulation in the present state of the manufacturing in dustry of the country.—( Hear, hear.) He did believe that a great part of our present prosperity stood upon stable founda tions, while peace continued wish foreign countries; and par ticularly if there were any hope of the South American, pro vinces being restored to a state of quiet of tranquillity, he could not but think that, with the elastic spirit of industry and enterprise in this country, there was a reasonable prospect of the continuance of a great part of our present prosperity. But, at the same time, he certainly thought there were indica tions which would lead prudent men to doubt whether the whole of that prosperity was sound, or whether the activity which was now everywhere displayed was necessarily connected with a safe and permanent state of things.—( Hear.) It was impassible to see the rapid and universal rise in the price of every article of consumption, without asking the question —to what was that to be attributed ? It was impossible to take up some of the newspaners—h e particularly referred to some Liverpool papers—sys :104 wistitesing a rasp fsor lin:mi s sion of joint stock beinipani6, ]',here inatters exceeding in absu'rdity'iluiSa dr the Ant 'stock 'cOdmanies of the year 1825. lle''saw'pospecttises pat foiati in . a'Vverpool papq *Fsbie.'h cs!rnpletely a,stO , iii'shed him, proceed ing as they did pipe epp4iit the' pititiArci4i THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MAY 7, is3b, world, so noted for the astuteness of its inhabitants, especially that class who there carried on commercial affairs. Projects have been put forth by commercial men for carrying on ma nufactares and other commercial speculations by means of joint-stock companies, which could only be carried on with success when directed by individual enterprise, and with a view to individual profit. Coupling these two facts together._ an universal rise in prices of all articles of consumption, and this tendency not merely to an ordinary kind of specula lation, but to the same mad projects which prevailed in the year 18-'s—without feelir , any cause of despondency, or any undue anxiety, yet he thought those were but acting the part of pru dent men who, in time, made use of words of caution from prudential motives.—( Hear, hear.) There were two circum stanc;:s which ought not altogether to escape the notice of the House. One was a measure which, when first introduced, he strongly opposed—which he knew was adopted with the single view, and not perhaps unwisely, of meeting a memorable commercial crisis—namely the measure which relieved the country banks from paying their notes above 51. in gold, and permitting them to exchange their paper for the paper of the Bank of England.—( Hear, hear.) While he admitted that supposing a crisis arose, much of the evil of the crisis might be obviated by giving such permission; yet he always feared that the measure itself had a tendency to precipitate that crisis. Therefore, he for one witnessed the adoption of that permis sion with some anxiety and some alarm. Now, whether the principle upon which the joint-stock banks were esta blished was perfectly sound or not, he was not prepared to say ; but it did so happen that coincident with all sorts of speculation was the multiplication of joint-stock banks throt'ghout the country. Nothing could be so unjust as any inquisitorial interference with the private transactions of com mercial men ; but he thought as regarded these joint stock banks, the Legislature had a full right to require that there should be some general regulation established as to the prin ciples upon which those banks should be conducted. Whether or not the habit of granting accommodation to the partners of those banks by issues of their own notes was perfectly con sistent with the commercial interests of the country, was a question which might be well deserving of consideration. He was aware at the same time that what might tend to diminish his anxiety was the' present state of the foreign exchanges. Whether or not. they ought to consider th e s t a t e o f f ore i gn exchanges as a real test of soundness in a time of general com mercial confidence and prosperity, whether they acted with suffislient rapidity, and were an infallible guide, was a point upon which he was not prepared to pronounce any decisive opinion. We are now proceeding with a flowing tide and a favourable wind, and everything appears prosperity and hap piness ' • but we should bear i n m i n d t h at i n a ll times, even apart from those factitious causes which may be now increa sing our prosperity, the commercial history of this country shows that we are subject to vicissitudes arising from exces sive speculation ; and when that period shall arrive—if ever it does arrive—l am sure that we shall not feel regret that in a time of general exultation and general quiet, there were some found amongst us who, not desponding, not in the least despairing —nay, believing that a great portion of our prosperity did rest upon stable and solid foundations—yet did, from prudential considerations, warn the House and the country that that prosperity might not be permanent, and that while interspersed with solid causes of prosperity, there might be others upon which it was not safe to rest.—(Cheers.) He would not dwell upon this subject, but without advising their entering into an inquiry of an inquisitorial nature, or which might interfere with that free agency which was essentially necessary to the general prosperity of a commercial nation, yet he thought that it was perfectly consistent with that prin ciple that the Legislature should inquire whether the banks of issue, exercising as they did one of the Royal prerogatives, were conducted upon principles of safety to the interests of the country at large. Mr. POULETT THOMSON thought that caution and prudence were above all things necessary at the present time, in order that the existing prosperity of the country might be maintained, and that we might not see it succeeded by similar scenes to those that took place in 1825. It was impossible not to be struck with the spirit of speculation that now existed in the country; but he believed that there was a great difference between the present state of things and what took pl ace i n 1825. The s pi r it o f speculation was then turned to foreign adventure of the most extraordinary description ; but now speculation was directed to home objects ; which if pushed too far might be very mischievous, though the consequences might not be quite so mischievous as in 1825 ; but, really, on turning to any newspaper, or to any price current, and observ ing the advertisements of joint stock companies upon every possible subject, however unfit to be carried on in the present state of society, any man roust be struck with astonishment at the fever which raged at this moment for those speculations. He felt it his duty some time ago to direct a register to be kept, taking the names merely from the London and a few country newspapers, of the different joint stock companies, and of the nominal amount of capital proposed to be embarked in them. The nominal capital to be raised by subscriptions amounted to nearly 200,000,0001. and the number of companies was be tween 300 and 400. His Right Hon. Friend just now re minded him of the speculation in France for making beet-root sugar; but that was a sound speculation compared to those mentioned in his list. The first was the British Agricultural Loan Company, with a capital of 2,100,0001. He had been furnished with a blank corn note, issued by this company, which ran in these terms : '• Exchange, British Agricultural Loan Company. Ten quarters English wheat. London, 18 No. I promise to deliver on demand, to the order of ten quarters of - ,wheat, g I . l7 4 ts — r <4 , p`or Eusliel, from the county of growth of 18 warebouQed on or ----Ig tu on which all charges have been paid up to the 18 201. staticlard value. For the Governor and Directors of the • British Agricultural Loan Company, " Entered Storekeeper. Secretary." ( Much laughter.) Another company was proposed for sup ' plying rain-water. Then there was the Patent Steam-paddle Company with a capital of 30,000/. ; the Safety Cabriolet Company, capital 100,0001. (laughter)-; the British and American Intercourse Company, capital 2,000,000/; the London Whale Fishery Company—( Loud laughter)---capital 600,000/. And then, to show the way these companies were starting up, for objects either of the most absurd kind, or for objects which private individuals were perfectly able to ac.. complish, he found the Liverpool British and Foreign Trad ing Company, capital 250,000/. His Noble Friend opposite ( Lord Sandon) knew perfectly well, that it was not at all an unusual thing for an individual in Liverpool to embark 250,000/. as a capital in foreign trade; and there were many who had a great deal more engaged i n that business. Seeing these things, it appeared to him that the people of this coun try, having their minds recalled to notions of prudence and caution, was a likely means to put a stop to the evils that must otherwise flow from this state of things. He knew that these • eompan • ies had not their origin only in London. In 1825 London was the great centre of speculation ; bu he was afraid that these companies had now their rise in other parts of the country. The Right Hon. Baronet had referred to a Liverpool paper. He (Mr. P. Thomson) was afraid that the place he represented (Manchester) could furnise instances of schemes for objects which could never be beneficial to any one, and in which the parties would only be throwing away their money. The fact was, that the greater part of these compa nies were got up by speculators, for the purpose of selling their shares.—( Hear, hear, hear.) They brought up the shares to a premium, and then sold them, leaving the unfortunate pur chasers who were foolish enough to vest their money in them, to shift as they could. These speculations ought to be checked, otherwise great mischief would ensue from the odium which would be thrown on those joint stock companies that were a national good. It was well known that most of the great un dertakings that had of late years characterised this country had been achieved by the enterprising spirit of individuals forming themselves into joint stock companies. Therefore he felt anti. ous that the good accruing from companies of this description should not be lost by the discouragement which the setting on foot of these mad and foolish schemes must ultimately occasion to joint stock companies of real merit. The Right Hon. Ba . ronet had referred to the state of the joint stock banks. He (Mr. P. Thomson) had seen also with great regret, the ex tent to which joint stock banks had sprung up in different parts of the country. He believed great good bad arisen from joint stock banks, but the observations he had ma d e ~with regar d to o th er companies were equally applicable to 'many of the joint stock banks that were springing up in different parts of the country, and the existence q,£ which could only be attended with great mischief. He hid a pro spcetus of what was called the English, Irish, and Scotch joint stock bank, with a proposed capital of three millions in England, two millions in Ireland, and two millions in scot. .land; and which held out the greatest possible advantages to the parties engaged in it. The shares too were of very small amount. Indeed on this point he had seen some cos: l p an i es with shares as low as 10/. The great danger L i : evil arising from speculations of this kind was obvious. But even iu those joint stock banks which were good, and could conduct their business properly, and which had an immense amount of ca pital laid up, as well as almost ir,e4ltatAstihie credit, there was he believed a new element Illteedeeed since the last discus sions they had had upon this subject which they must not lose sight of: but which he confessed ho knew not how to correct except through the prudence and greatest caution of the par ties themselves. What he meant was this. Parliament had been in the habit of considering it their duty to look most cautiously to banks of issue ; but banks of deposit were not thought likely to lead to mischiefi end therefore that they did not require to be rendered subject tin Parliamentary control. In fact there appeared to be little chance of laying any re striction upon their proceedi ngs . H e b e li eve d t h at that opi nion was correct; but it was subject to this observation, that Parliament looked for security to the prudence and Milan of the parties themselves, and to their maneoln# their business upon what he (Mr. P. Thonuian) co.naiderod to ho alone the sound principle for ellethiPliAgf a bank of deposit, namely, of ds'aline'Y with tlip capital of their depositors, not their own, and not 4 11(vui0itigi nem the credit which they might enjoy. Now, a nese element had certainly sprung up ; and he believed that a great deal was done by these establishments in the way of discounting their awn 'credit, The bills which came into them from their customers, wero discounted at a much higher rate of interest than as compared with what would be charged in London when passing with the credit of an endorsement by a joint st oc k b ank ; anci b thin a much larger proportion of those bills found currency than would be the case under another sys tem. To that might be attributed in some degree 110 4r cumstances which they now saw exiv,t,i l ": l 4.--koirnetY, hi g h prices, and the support whiels Wee g ,tv x iii . to the spirit of spe_ C11 1 "' :, r1 utl‘ "" • i.d 'ls it was with any 7 14.4 P, ccompan s e inet4aee'bt 'Wslie, either from the country banks of issue, or, in tOnctriii, by the B ink of England itself. This, in his opinion ivas not a s a f e state o f t hi ngs , M I,4Va tike country should go on provv fevi 4 v , ; As I ck n xi prteel kept rising, as low q t.;e Ssl vit t extr, flie,ee bill§ seas able to me e t hi s ersretnell ip SO cog no disturbance would tat: place. Bgt A • AI let t1.e.1 a be a fall of prices, and then he believed the penalty which The country would have to sustain by the encouragement of till• false system would he very great indeed.--( Hear.) He h lieved that to a certain extent these banks did great good but pushed as they were now to so extreme a degree of co npetition, he was apprehensible that considerable mis chief would ensue. He hoped, however, that the prudence and caution of those parties who had so much to lose, would prevent the occurrence of mischief. He confessed that he re garded, as of much more importance, the system of which he had been speaking, carried, as it had been, to so great an extent, sewing to the competition of the joint stock banks. than the circum s t ance a ll uded to by the Right Hon. Baronet namely, the regulation under the law for making 51. notes the limit of issues. He thought if any adversity were to arise the country would then feel the full benefit of that measure. Mr. MATTHIAS ATT WOOD (who rose with Mr. T. Attwoed) proceeded to address the House, but the Hon. Meml)er was nearly ins udible throughout. We only heard the Hen. Member say that he agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that a great por tion of the prosperity of the country rested upon the firm and stable basis of its own enterprise and prudence, and that no thing could be more dangerous than to check that enterprise by any false financial system. The only other sentence that fell from the Hon. Gentleman that reached us was that an increased amount of exports was no sign whatever of the in creased prosperity of the country. It merely showed an in crease of its labour and productive power, but increased con- gumption was the only test of the country having derived any advantage from it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not be tempted, by anything that had occurred in the course of the debate to enter into the general question of the currency; more especially as the House appeared very anxious for the termination of the discussion..--( Hear, hear.) He very much regretted that the Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Taraworth, was no longer in his place. The Right Honourable Baronet had confirmed the few hints which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had thrown out—not of alarm and distrust, but of caution and prudence; and it af forded him the highest gratification to find that in the course which he had felt it his duty to pursue, in this part of his statement, he had been supported by the authority of the Right Hon. Barouet.—( Hear, hear.) He entirely con curred with the Right Hon. Baronet in his estimate of the ad vantage the country would derive from the repeal of the duty on raw cotton, supposing the state of its revenue admitted of such a reduction. There was not one word of what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet on this point in which he did not fully concur; but however desirable he might deem such a reduction to be, he could not with the amount of surplus he had that night announced, take upon himself the responsibility of proposing it. He wished to say one word, in the next place, with reference to what had fallen from his Hon. Friend, the Member for Worcester (Mr. Robinson), relative to the Stamp Act, because he knew that if observations coining from such a quarter remained uncontradicted, they would obtain a considerable degree of currency. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the effect of the various details of the Bill would be to add greatly to the whole amount of duty paid. Now, he had brought the fact to a pretty fair test, with reference to one head of revenue at least, and he begged his Hon. Friend's attention t o t h e statement he was about to make, because it bore directly upon his argument. Ile he held in his hand an account of the whole amount of Stamp Duty on bills, paid by a very considerable house in the city of London, for one year; and on the other side, he had a statement of the exact amount which would have been paid had the regulations he now proposed been in force. Under the old Act, the amount was 1,214/. 18s. ; under the new ono it would have been 1,1961. 10s. Hear, hear.) He would now entreat the attention of the House to a little per sonal matter between his Right Hon. Friend cpposite (Mr. Goulburn) and himself, which, like all other matters between them, could only be discussed with mutual good will and regard. His Right Hon. Friend had adverted to two points : the one, his intentions in the year 1830 with respect to the size of Newspapers; and the other, the transactions which had lately occurred between him (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) and the members of the Press. He would take each of these points in its turn. His Right Hon. Friend, he was quite sure, would not suspect him of converting any official information that came within his reach to an uncandid purpose, or of using it in an uncandid manner. When he (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) had put into his hand a printed copy of an intended Act of Parliament, it would have been the very last thing to enter his mind that it was to be treated as a con fidential communication in any shape whatever; more espe cially as in framing the Bill he had referred to the Right Honourable Gentleman's labours on the subject, and to the Bills which were in progress at the time of .his leaving office. Unt:l his Right Honourable Friend stated it himself, he could not have believed that he had altered his mind with respect to fixing it limitation of the size of the Paper, because the sche dule which was annexed to his Right Honourable Friend's proposed bill, although it did not contain particular provisions with respect to the Supplement, they were certainly not the provisions which Mr. Huskisson proposed, Mr. G OULB URN—Yes they were, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. could not conceive how that could be; because Mr. Huskisson proposed no limitation whatever; whereas his Right Hon. Friend's clause applied to a supplement containing k certain number of advertisements, and sold at a particular price ; and it con tained an enactment specially limiting the size of the paper itself. With these documents before him, he could not be lieve_ that his Right hail s :a:;: eee embodied in them, until he heard it announced by himself. 'Tile Act-of roz4 unmed the size of the papers to 32 inches by 20, but Mr. Huskisson removed that restriction, and allowed Newspspers to be printed on paper of any size. Now, in the schedule of his Right Hon. Friend, there was a certain re striction—not with respect to the contents of the supplements, but to the size of the sheets on which they were to be printed, which was specially limited and controlled by the enacting clause which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) bad be fore hire. After the explanation of his Right Honourable Friend, he could entertain no doubt of his having abandoned this intention, and of his having determined not to br;sig in the Bill in the shape he originally contemplated, The next point involved a matter of private and. individual faith, and he therefore entreated the patit...t attention of the House.---( Hear, hear, hear.) Or a former occasion, when the petition of the Newspaper ?eoprietors was presented he took upon himself to expreee ',ne very great surprise he felt at the course adopted by tiee individuals who had signed it, because lie had been in communication with these individuals throughout the whole proceediegs, and because every sugges tion upon which he had acted had partially emanated from himself, and had beers adopted with their knowledge. Now, an utter denial had been given to thig assertion, and his Right Hon. Friend had been called upon to repeat that denial in that House. This being the case, he felt it a duty which he owed alike to himself and to the House, to give the fullest ex planation of the whole transaction ; an explanation which he trusted the House would admit to be perfectly and entirely satisfactory. The question was, had he really been in com munication with tho parties who had petitioned the House. Next,aith respect to the superficial measurement of the paper and the limits he had adopted—lie had adopted them, with their privity and knowledge. It was in the month of July last that lie had been first applied to to .receive a deputation on the part of the London Newspaper Press, stating the then-. violations of • the law which were constantly faking place, and requesting immediate protection from the infringe ment of their existing rights. Ho wrote in reply to that request, as he did every other of a similar descrip tion, that he should be happy to receive the deputa tion at a convenient period, which he named. The paper he now held in his hand was the paper which was delivered to him as the authority of the deputation. It was signed on the part of the Tithes, on the part of the Globe, on the part of the Standard, or, the part of The Sun, on the part of the Mrrning Advertiser, 0.1 the part of the Age, on the part of the Dis patch, and on the part of the Bell's Weekly 312ssenger. The deputation stated to him that they represented the newspaper proprietors of the city of London, and he -so received them. He gsve them an answer with respect to the then state of the law, with which it was immaterial to trouble the House; 'end he developed to that deputation, in July last, the very ;theme he had now opened for the reduction of thepernr,eent duty, of which communication he now found a Per";il note on the back of the pap er . S u b sequent l y the an of that meet ing wrote to see him again, on the parr or pro prietors of th e c i ty o f L on d on, of the newspaper! wards, not sin g ly, but with five saw him repeatedly after ., wae A lways a d m i tte d to St.'s, rife, for other gentlemen ; h e for ,kee had made it a rule to not friends to the entire repeal of the tax, but thoso who."'re opposed to it. These gentlemen attended en b own':ng-street, and saw him, always representing that these 'were the Committee—the same Committee emanating from the meeting of newspaper proprietors of the city of London, whose paper he now held in his hand. He held also in his hand a suggestion which was left with him by those gentlemen connected with the alteration of the mea surement. It was contained in the following resolution : " Resolved, on the motion of Mr. Bell, seconded by Mr. Shaw, that a deputation be instructed to take with them copies of the old and new Bell's Messenger, to present to the Chancellor of the Exchequer at their next interview, and to request the Right Honourable Gentleman to extend his pro posed limitation of size to the superficial adeneasurement of those papers." This resolution was carried unanimously, and signed by the Chairman ; and he was informed by that Chairman that the original document was signed by one of the parties representing one of the papers which had petitioned that House, who now denied, through his Right Honourable Friend, ever having had any intercourse with him, and protested against the change he proposed.— ( Ch em . ) There might be altogether a mistake in the matter, these gentlemen might have falsely represented themselves to hini ; but his Right Honourable Friend, from his habits of official business, must know that under the circumstances he could do nothing but believe that those who told him they represented the press, and that the voucher originally brought to him, as their authority, signed by the parties interested, was a voucher which accompanied them throughout the whole transaction; and therefore lie was justified in stating that he was acting with their knowledge and privity.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House further ; Ise had felt it necessary to make a full explanation, and he was obliged to his Right Hon, Fr- d for having afforded him an oppor tunity of dekt so. The parties could refer' o their own chair nlatk ikutt the members of the deputation who had welted on him, both of whom would repeat the whole statomeset he bad now made. He felt it incumbent upon Lira to eater into it ;it was important to himself, es luieolving it matter of persona faith and perspeeal, feeling,--C Hear.) With reference le any statornVO4 OVA had been made elsewhere, he we , - uld on l y sa y that lie should not hare noticed them, bet his Right Hon. Friend had given him the opperos. of • s a,sertion . ... s ty mecticil, au - in that Htlllslo, he trusted dew no more than duty stating the facts as they had oc la r siS i6 " -f \ rie neers.) sae llimse would see that he had Mr. GOULBURN was understood to say that the depu tation appeared only to have included one of th petitinni:g partieF. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, tw•o. Mr. GOULBURN—But I find that the Morning Post and the Morning Herald are not included in the list enumerated by my Right Hon. Friend. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —Oh no. They said they were a deputation from the whole London Press ; only the signatures of the Morning Post and Morning Herald were ommitted. Mr. GOULBURN said that, being merely the organ of the parties whose petition be had, on the occasion referred to, presented, he could go no further than he had done in repeat ing, on their authority, the statement which had been made. With 'respect to that part of the Right Honourable Gentle man's statement which had more immediate reference to him (Mr. Goulburn), it appeared that the Right Honourable Gentleman had found the draft of a Bill prepared for consideration, and had availed himself of the purport of its enactments to support an argument which the schedule to the Bill—the only part which he (Mr. Gaul- Issirn) had felt prepared t o support--did not suppo r t. Th e Right Hon. Gentleman maintained that the schedule did on the contrary support the argument which he had taken up ; but if Hon. Members would look at the two enactments, he (Mr. Goulburn) was satisfied that they would perceive a ma terial ditfcrence. What he (Mr. Goulburn) complained of was that the effect of the use which the Right Hon. Gentle man had made of the printed paper, would be to indnce the House to agree to a proposition for limiting the size, en thn supposition that the schedule to the Former proposed Bill etn braced a similar proposition. A reference to the forme.; mea sure would show how fallacious was this view of it. Tide clause in that Bill ryas a repetition of similar clauses in the Act of 1804, and in Mr. Huskisson's Act, and it Contained these % words :—" Newspap ers conta i ning politi ail n ews , intelli gence, occurrences, or remarks thereon, with or without ad vertisements—that is, for every sheet, half-sheet, or piece of paper therein contained, without P.mitation, &c. "—( Hear.) Now this clearly did not propose any re s t r i ct i ons as to size, and he thou g h t t h at i t was rattier unfair towards him that the schedule should have been converted into an argument againt him. At the same time he acquitted the Hon. Gentleman personally of any intention to act unfairly; in all probabili t y he had not been personally aware of the manner in which this alteration had affected the statement of the nature of the for mer measure. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER nag quite sure that he should be acquitted of any intention to produc e the printed Bill i n quest i on, for the purpose of dacesving the House us to the purport of the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. BAINES wished to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman meant that the duties on all description of paper (or, papers of both the two classes) should be reduced one halt; and whether he meant the discount of 20 per cent. to apply to the newspaper duty of one penny, as it now did to the duty of fourpence ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—My rm. position is to seduce the duty tile three-halfpence, with the other reduction in discount of 20 per cent. Mr. D. ROCHE bard the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with I;iensure, but did not think that a fair al lowance was made to Irish newspapers in the proposed redae tio:s of stamp dillies. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would go more fully into the question when the motion of the Hon. Member for Northampton came before the House, and he would also enter upon the less contested question, taking an early opportunity, vvbe.n the subject was brought before a Com mittee of the whole House. Colonel SIBTHORP regretted that the agricultural inte rest had not been better attended ta in the financial statement. With regard to newspapers, be was astonished to hear it ad mitted that the power of the law was too weak to enforce its enactments, and that the sway of the people without should enforce legislation in that House. The truth was, the Go vernment was afraid of the honest press, and wished for un stamped newsrapers to play its part. Mr. BLUME would not limit the relief which might he afforded by a surplus to any particular class, but still be thought that in any disposal of it the agricultural interest ought to be consulted. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that everything consonant with the security of the revenue should be done for the agricultural interest. Mr. G. F. YOUNG regretted that no prospect of relief was held out to the shipping interest. The revenue derived frcm Marine Insurances was every day dwindling, partly be cause it was found more economical to insure in foreign of fices, partly because foreigners, who formerly preferred in• suring with us, had left, and, what was worse and more in jurious to a nation greatly dependent on commerce, many would rather run the hazard than submit to so high a rate of insurance. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said if the right of the agricultural interest to claim a portiou of the sur plus were shown he would be glad to accord it, but ev'zn the half of the surplus, being 300,0001., was admitted by the Noble Member for Buckinghamshire not to amount to a tangi l ale re lief. This remission then would be nothing to unite up a deficit of five millions. BISHOPRIC OF DURHAM, Lord J. RUSSELL, moved the further coradderation oldie Report of the Bishopric of Durham Bill. ,°,,r. it. iiiL % Uli moved, as an an:eal /new, coann it I ed. '4l Colonel SIBTHORP objected the introduction o f t h e subject at s o l a t e an h our. that it lug sue___-- Mr. PEASE Objected to toe. 4rcat a centralization of the juridical powers. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought that the objec tions to this 811 were wltolly unfounded, inasmuch as no one cou'd contend that it was fit, to leave in the Bishop of Durham as well the temporal ;lathe ecclesiastical jurisdiction connected with that see. The object of the measure was to place the county of Durham in the same situation as the other counties, and it was absurd to suppose they were doing snore in the case of the county of Durham than had already been done with respect to the County Palatine of Chester, and the Princi pality of Wales. For his part, he could not understand what advantage was to be derived from the recommittal of the Bill, and he hoped it would be allowed to pass the present stage. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON assured the House that the inhabitants of the county of Durham were greatly opposed to the abolition of local courts. These courts had been long of great advantage to the county; and, although he fully agreed that the separation of the temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdic tion might be beneficial, he still thought that they would be wrong if they were to deprive the inhabitants of the county of Durham of an advantage which they had so long possessed and so highly prized, especially after the dis satisfaction which it was well known the change in the princi pality of Wales had created. He certainly should support his Ron. Friend if he persisted in moving there-cornraittal of the Bill. Mr. GOULBURN thought, that after what 'had. passed, the Noble Lord ought to consent that the Bill should be re committed ; as, if a change were called . 4 '.or, that change should not be effected against the wish tat the inhabitants of the county. An HON. MEMBER (whose name he could not learn) ex pressed his hope that the Nohla Lord would accede to the proposition for recommending the Bill. Although he was desirous of having the local f;ourts preserved, he wished the jurisdiction of them to bn possessed by the Crown, and not by the Bishop, beeP.e.so 'he thought their existence of great importance to the ou•, ty. Lord J. RUSE ELL said that after what had passed h► would consent to the Bill being recommitted, but in doing so he must take 'Leave to deny that •he change which had taken place in thr, administration of justice in England aid Wales had been productive of any dissatisfaction whatever. Thp House then resolved itself into a Committee on the The Ist and 2d clauses were agreed to. On the 3d clause, relating to the abolition of local courts, being put, Mr. A. TREVOR said that it would be his bounden duty to give this clause the most determined opposition in his power. He had presented petitions against it, and he must say that it was a gross and scandalous act of injustice to deprive men of their just emoluments, against whom there did not exist even the pretence of improper conduct. The returns on the tabla of the House proved the great advantage to the county of Mir` ham of its local Courts, and he should therefore move that thnis clause be expunged from the Bill. Mr. HUME understood that the removal o f th e r xtsent was to be followed by th e establishment of other local Courts, and if that was the case, one great objection to the. Bill would be got rid of. Mr. PEASE said that if such an unerstanding existed, it would decidedly obviate the objections Which were generally entertained against this measure. fherc was no imputation against those Courts that they did, not administer justice im— partially, clearly, effectually, and economically, and therefore it would be unfair to take them away without giving a substi tute for them. He, however, was opposed to the principle of centralisation embodied ID this Bill. Mr. HARLAND also expressed a hope that the county of Durham would not be deprived of the benefit of its local Courts. The SOLICITOR -GENERAL said that at all events it could not be contended that the Court of Chancery of Dur ' ham was not a merely nominal jurisdiction, or that the whole (4 the expensive machinery of that Court was tot utterly use less to the inhabitants of that county. It would be highly in jurious that after the abolition of the political jurisdiction of the Bishop such a large and cumbrous machinery should be kept up. The legal jurisdiction should be assimilated to that of other counties; and there was no reason why the same al teration should not be made in Durham as was effected, and usefully, in Chester; the jurisdiction was quite obsolete, anal ought not to be retained. After a few words from Mr. P. STEWART, in support of m W e ' n a:b .cc urt m o l n d , the motion, G of o‘ l4- er r n • Colonel SIBTEIORP moved that the Chairman report ;. THE b ut ,o v n o t h R e s s a u i g d g i e f s t t i h o e n enter into the motion. aidmp by allowing the Court t P 1 pro m g r r . cs A s °Pleas to remain, bo wo not press his motion. Lord J. RUSSZLL intim ated that be should press the clause as l ''. stood to a division. , r , ..le House then divided, when there appea r e d — For the clause ...... ... . Against it ... ........... 19 11Iajority The remaining clauses were then agreed to, and the - House resumed. NEW WRIT FOR THE CITY OF KILKENNY. Mr. J. H. TALBOT moved for a new writ for the return of a Member for the City of Kilkenny, in the room cif.' Richard