The Sun. — London, England, 1808-05-28 00:00:00

~,,:,,. LILP ERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERtS. FIUDAY, WAY 27. The Royal Assent was notified, 'by Commission, to above ninety Public and Private Bills. The Com missinner3 were the Lord Chancellor, Earl Bathurst, sod Lord Walsitigham. . 'Several Public and Private Bills were - brought up from the Commons, and read a first time; among :the former was the Military Inquiry Bin. • CATHOLIC PETITION. The Order of the Day was then read for taking into consideration the Petition presented on behalf of the Cantolies of Ireland, and Lord GRENVILLE moved that the Petition be now read.---The Petition havingibeee read accordingly, ..Lord. GRENVILLE rose; agreeably to natioe, to mom that the prayer of the Petition be referred to a Committee,. Betted he entered on . the arguments which, in his mind, should Seduce their Lordships to accede te his Motion, he had a few observations to premise respecting the. causes of the delay that had Occurred in bringing forward his Motion,, and the reasons which inclined him' rather to rejoice in, than to regret, that' delay. .Wheif he firsts'eatre notice of his Motion, he expected to have the sup port of a Noble Friend of his (Lord Grey)e whose support on all occasions was so dairablee but more especially ma subjed which his Noble Friend was known to have extreinely at heart. Domestic ca lamities, and ate urgency of private 'affairs, corns pened his Noble Friend to, leave town before the dee first appointed for the' present Notion. In the expectation, however, that his Noble Friend would be able shortly to return to his Parliamentary duty, he had deferred his Motion for a fortnight longer. But a fresh domestic calamity befel his Noble Friend, and prevented.hia return to town at the time 1w expea ed. lie entered into thig explanation of the delay, lest it might be misinterpreted, and lest it should be weeded that any alteration had takeit place in the 4eottments of his Noble Friend upon this most important question. So far from' that behtg the case, he had the express request of his Noble Friend to declare that every day's experience made him cling More closely to those sentiments s that he entertain ed them to the full extent of what he had so often expressed, and that it was no small addition to the Setterings sehich occasioned his absence, to be de prived of the apportunity of again declaring them in his place. But In ether respeCts he was rather glad than sorry for the delete as circumstances had since occurred that made the delay not only not a , aubje& of regret, , but of satisfaCtion, and which opened to him a fairer prospe4 of the future success of meesure which he was now anxious to press upon the attention of their Lordships. Only two days ago, this question had been brought forward in another place, and when he said that it had been treated with superior talent and ability, it was only saying what was naturally to be expeOted front the acltnowledged powers of the person who hasl un dercelten it. But much as every man must have , arbeired the display 'of genius and talent on that occasion, he most rejoiced at the temper, ..the prudence, and the cireumeeeEtion with which the matter Wit% handled, and the impression which that temperate and cooeiliatieg manner bed made on the minds of those to whom it W4S addressed. In what he had to refer oh the same Silbjea, thong!) he de spaired of being able to exert the same abilities, he. should, however, endeavour to imitate the same temper, and he trusted it' would produce the same. favourable impression. Had he brought forward his motion en the day' which he had first appointed for its discussion, he should have been deprived of this example, and unsupported by the flattering hopes with which the force of that example inspired him of the future issue of the question. Indeed he stood itl need of something to cheer the gloom which bung upon the general state of things, and which had thickened so conside ra bly s i nce h e had last the ,honour of opting their Lordships' attention to this important, delicate, and awful subject. At that pes" rind, it, is true, the attitude of the enemy was formi dable—ethe trenches .had been opened ; but they are now tar advanced, and the line of circumvallation is drawing 'closer around us. The dangers of the coun try wore then comparatively remote, but they were now impending over us : we were on the point, we touched on the moment of feeling the Storm burst upon us. He imagined he already heard the trnm pet sounding the charge. Under circumstances of such just alarm, what had the government to look to Litt to the ueited hands ,and hearts of. the inba- . enfants of the t wa kingdoms ; and such is the ino ment,,when the great majority of the inhabitants of Ireletel press forwerd tvittt eurtiest offrs. of sharing our dangers, of co-operating in our eticirts to resist and 'repel them. Their otters and' their wishes they address to Parliament, to which they look as the snily source, not only of protection and liberty, but of all the benefits and blessings that direotly flow front the Conititutiort. Their Lordships have heard their Petition read, and have now to consider then ea ture and of jeela of its prayer. His Lordship then proceeded to state, that -the motion he should con clude with would be for a Committee to hike the objeeis of the Petition into consideration. It was his individual opinion, that the prayer of the Potitibe should be conceded to its utmost extent. But as many Noble 'Lords would doubtless differ 'from hint on this point, he wished the ohjeCta of the Petition might be fully discussed, that the House might exa mine how far it was safe and expedient to grant more or less of the prayer of the Petition, and see 'that:nothing of what they might be disposed to grant ihould affeet , the existing Establidhments in Church ;stet State ; and if all the inconreniences and evils of will,* the Petition coMplained could not immediate ly tie removed, to in9uire at least how far some of them might be remedied, or mitigated, that thus a diapatition might be shown to listen to their reeres' sent Woes with pat ienewandett tent ion, and to redress (Wlt - grievances as tiar as wisdom might (Bred, end prudence alloW. These were subjects to which.he lougS turned' his mind ; they were often the sub - jest of the meditations of that great Statesman', his mewed :Friend (Mr. Pitt), of ,whose councils the coeutry was now unfortunately deprived. With the sso theents 'of that Statesman on those points he was eitrettely acquainted from mutual communication, sn I all teese objeets were before his mind at the time of the Uuton. 2'he removal of the disabilities complained of in the Pet Von he Ilea lotsg before conceived and deternsitied; but it formed only one part of the great system he was planning for theime provernent and Prosperity of Ireland. If the Howie would consent to go into the Committee, he should there minutely detail this syteni, and he was confi dent their Lordships would 'adope , much of it, not only en.eccoont of its wisdom aud• policy, but one of regard and justice to the inemery'of its immortal framer. Much had sif late been , done to better the situation of 'the Established Clergy in this Country, and in Ireland. It formed a part of the system to which he had adverted,to make some aireeipt to improve the situation of the Catholic Clergy iiethe latter country. Every day furnished new proofs of the zeal and pa triotism of 'the. Catholic Bishops of Ireland, and . consequently added to their claims on the justice and gratitude of the Government. Indeed, lie never en- rained a doubt of their loyal and. patriotic disposition. But when this subje& was on a former occasion ' under the consideration of their Lordships, much uneasiness . seemed to be felt with regard to the Catholic • Hierarchy, and much alarm expressed at the authority the Bishops exercised over the inferior Clergy, and at their connexion with, and deference to, the See of Rome. These objections are now removed.; these alarms should now vanish : for the Catholic Bishops have made a voluntary offer to place the nomination of the future Bishops corn pletely at the disposal of the Crown, and to give the King a direCt negative upon all such appoint- ments.• This surely must do away a material ob je&ion, and induce the Government to take en in terest in the situation of the inferior Catholic Clergy, as well as that of their superiors. It might be ada. visable to provide a decent subsistence for them :• he wished nothing farther. They now derived their whole subsistence from the voluntary contributions of their docks ; and when it was recollected that they ministered to the spiritual 'comforts of nearly four millions of soids', it must be felt how much gaining their confidence and gratitude would tend to diminish the dangers which so much alarm the minds- of some men. Among other objections start ed on this question, the refusal of the Catholics to take the oath of supremacy was much insisted on. But their scruples on this head arose from a mere question of speculative belief ; they did not at all interfere with the temporal power of, the-Sovereign and the State. They considered only. his spiritual power. Now, the Constitution does not suppose a spiritual power in the King; the Kies is not, as it were, the Pope of the English Church ; his su preMacy is not such as was affeeled by Henry VIII. Neither does the Established Churcn• of'Scotland admit of any spiritual power in the King; but no objeaion is raised against it on that soorei Among the objeas which were in the contemplation or the. great Statesman (Mr. Pitt), to whose eatliority on these sub je&s he could not too often recur, was' to framesa form of words, in flea of the oath of su premacy, which would be sufficient to eecure every objet of temporal goveroment, and due obedienee to temporal authority. No danger whatever could possibly result from such an alteration; and when we rifled on the addition it might make to the na tional strength, should we hesitate 'to adopt it, at a moment when all the Means we can call into action may prove so inadequate to repel the dangers with. which the Empire is threatened? But, even, if the situetion of the Stuart Family were such as still to keep alive such apprehensions as have been express ed on this point, still he was sure not a voice could be raised in favour of the Pretender against the pre sent occupier of the throne; still less, when, every branch of that family is extinct, there is no room for such apprehensions; these should cease when the cause is gone-.-tile provisions made against the. danger erase when the danger has ceased to exist. Did not the army employed by King William to establish the Revolution cantata chiefly of Catholics, Commanded by Catholic officers? Yet, with 'such an army he did not fear to encounter the Catholics in this country. He knew they would do the duty they had sworn to perform. Such is ' the judgment of enlightened minds-e-such the etrea of wise toleration in Governments. The Noble Lord next proceeded to state some of the other objetlionable dottrines imputed to the Catholics, among othert, the belief Of a deposing power in the Popees- Net only do the Catholics deny entertaining such such notions, but the question whether they did or not, was known to have been proposed to the Pro-, fessor& of the most celebrated Universities on the Continent, and their 'answer is equally known to have been Couched is expressions of surprise, not un mixed with indignation, at finding that such tenets were imputed to the great body of the Catholics. As' idle nod unfounded were the objetlions arising from the• supposition that the Catholics did not think themselves. bound by their Oaths. What but their acknowledged and known regard endnwe for • that sacred obligation, mild have induced the framers of the very laws against them, and those who refuse tai repeal them, to impose oaths upoe thein, as the surest means of securing their fidelity? Besides, did not the Pet* See itself, by its declara tion in tees% positively deny the holdingelf eueb a duthine, or asmumning Such a power, as the deposing power which it is accused of attempting to exercise ? `Xlie next objectionarose 'from excommunication, which 'is only the exclusion front spiritual hopes, and never enforced with respect to temporals. That exercise' of it is not peciiliaeto Ireland, but to every country where the Catholic Religion is tolerated. Besides, it has of late been very rarely resorted to in Leland. The Noble Lord was not aware of any other objetlion of any. moment. We had 'only to look to other countries, and we should see what confidence was reposed in the Catholics, where Catholiciem was not the established religion. The . Greek =Church preyailed in Russia; but in Russia there was no obje6tion to employing Catholics-- Prussia was Protestant,- and there the Catholics were admitted to the highest military rank.- The same in Holland; and in all these countries the professors - Of these different religions lived together on the most intimatelootingsof confidences and cordiality. ' Such, was the spirit Which he wished to see prevail' be tween the different persuasione in Ireland; and its beneficial effects were more and more marked in that country since the first relexation of the penal code in tem It is the gradual intuition of that spi rit through Ireland that has brought it to the wealth, erinfidetice, 'and power which it now eneeye, and to that improved situetion it has been raised Avithin the last thirty years, from *state of depressed po verty, and political annihilation. whiff, ' tilt iron pressure of our laws had inflieted on' her before she was' gradually relievedfrom it by the beneficent and paternal hand of the Sovereign now on the Throne He fondly hoped that the same benevolence would continue 'to operate; - and. it would be sure to pro duce a commensurate extension of all the advau tages and blessings in which Ireland has begun to flourish.. These were the means of -attaching a people, -of consolidating our divided resources, and giving strength 'and stability to the Government. You had now only folly to extend:the Constitution to Ireland, and you will draw from Ireland the most powerful means of defending it. There remained but few exclusions, and hey would etre& but - a few; but the little that was still withheld might be grant ed without danger. But it,was not little in the eyes of the . Catholics. Let Noble Lords only consider how it would depress the mind of any ingenious youth to retie& that upon entering into any pro fession, the Military, the Naval, or the Law, he Was to be exposed to all the fatigues and dangers of such a life, but must never aspire to its higher re wards, its more glorious distindions. :Must not such a reflection extinguish all emulation ? the fond parent of every noble adion, of every bold enter prize ? Such must be the feelings of the Irish Catho lic, and such the Wei influence over his mind of such a degrading exclusion. Let not such narrow prejudices preclude the State and the Empire from the enjoyment of the increased resources which .it would derive from a more mild, liberal, and generous policy; above all, let not such hopes be blasted at a moment so exigent and alarming. We see all the strength and milintry means of Europe grasped and wielded by the arm of 'one man, and that man the most formidable enemy in every respe that we have ever had to encounter; and how can we hope to resist him without the most perfect union, the most cordial cb-operation of all descriptions of his Ma jesty's subjects. Let nothing, therefore, be omitted to secure that co-operation in the hour. of trial„ which certainly is now near at hand. The Noble Lord then emphatically addressed the body of 'the' Irish Catholics, and conjured them to persevere in the same line of loyal and submissive conduct which had hitherto distinguished them, whatever the lltte that might attend their present application to the Legislature; And concluded with . moving that their Petition be referred to a Committee. Lord Stutuovxa objeaed to the line of argument which represented the granting the prayer of the Petition as necessary to engage the Catholics to de fend the State in the present crisis. This was too like a stipulation fiar a bribe to perform a bounden duty. He relied on the Catholics for the full per formance of their duty without any bargain fur tee or reward. The Petition purported to chum redress of grievances for the whole Catholic Body. But. it WA,4 obvious that the establishment of, the adtnissibi lity of Catholics ton few great otlices of. State, and to seatkin Parliament, could affeU but a few of the heads Of the Catholic Body, without ever reaching to the mass of the' people. He wished to pass mea saves which, without • affecting the State, would ;relieve and serve the mass of the people-) measures which would tend .to dissipate the igeorance, bigot ry, and superstition of the Catholic poor, and the slavery and misery of the Protestant poor. The No ble Lord argued' at consicietabio length against the political power. It was aurnlitt!iicslsioopur;oosfitiaCila,ttlorett to House•of Stuart, but KiJho principles incompatible with the civil and religious liberty of this country, that the revolution was esta blished. These principles the Cat hulks maintained, and they were therefore not tit to be admitted to power, though the House of Stuart no longer exist ed. He argued from the example of J.IMCS H. that the Profession of respea fbr the established religion now made by the Catholics could not be relied on it brought to the test. He argued from the histZny of Ireland, and the apthority of Lord Clare, that the penal law was essentially necessary to be evaded in the time of Queen Anne, .and the limes infruediate- ,, ly subsequent. To toleration in Its largest sense• he was a friend. He would have the Catholic Clergy paid by the State in order to prevent the necessity of their paying court to' the caprices of their flocks, and also to relieve the people from the burthen of main-, taining two sets of Ck . ergy a and-from that subser viency to the Priests which prevailed too much in consequence of the present system. Fie did nut think the proffered controul of the Crown over the appointment'' the Catholic Bishops would a sutpcient security against the undue exercise of fo. reign influence. He wished' to avoid every thing i,nVidious. :But he considered the. state of things established at the •Unlon as permanent, and he tett himself bound in duty to refuse the prayer of the Petition, in order to uphold the pritteiplesrof the Reformation and Revolution, 'those principles that Seated the illustrious House of Hamner ou the Bo tish Throne, and that were essential to the pryer ,vation of the civil and religious liberties of the Uri. tish people. . The lid'a•rl of Mom.% contended, that the PetitiOn represented the sense of the whole Catholic body, loasmuch as the objtas it prayed were of value to every 'Catholic in the land. It was not to be e•..- •peOed that the Catholics would cease to ask, while the equal participation of. what they cotitribeted equally to support and defend wita denied' to them. lie thought it impossible that a Catholic should be appointed to superintend thellistribution of church preferments, the alarm on that head was therefore. groondless.- The state of exclusion in which the' Cathohe was now placed, Warranted the Protestant in looking on him with an eye of auSpicon: Thus, the Catholic was in a state Most galling to his feel ings. He was attached to the Church of Eatglind as much as any man ; but he would not betray the Church into any improper Eourse merely to gratify his passions or his interest. He argued, that the penal laws,were enacted to guard against rival prin ciples and attachments. The object of these attach ments no longer existed,'consequently the ground of jealousy was removed, and the penalties ought to be C tb a r ho . lics 7 a it n h d e t v h e e ry hlg li t o le w s a t t o lu p e in co o r n the loyalty ed of w t i l t ie h their sense of the faroursllready conferred on them, he did net think their attachment so much to be re lied on if this boon was refined as it would be if it should be granted. Every one was aware that the day must $OOll 'come When the boon desired could the ti e f o t r b i e na c k or g es it s . ia N n v w hi a le s i t n to e , v lo it n at e le r , b w e hl w , i p tl u th t e o l ff d he 'aid this, he admitted his regret that the Petitiou had been brought forward. Great benefits would rtainly result froth Wet discussion of the. Pctition in the liberal manner in which it appeared likely to - be treated. But these benefits would, in his °peyote be countera&ed by the disappointment of tee expece. tetion of a favourable vote. 'The Military (Mori Bill granted nothing that Was not given before ; lee*, it was a sign of a favourable disposition ; it held vut the olive branch, and afforded a pledge that every relief that was wanted would be granted in the course of a little time. Every thing that happened tended to confirm the power oft he enemy, already so ease mous, and dire red with so much hostile ability against -us s. and yet in this awful crisis it was mael matter ot'cold inauimate deliberation; whether three millions of people should be so dealt by as to niahi their strength in the highest degree available to de common cause. Every thing that Was done Shoup bto excite:aed confirm hope. If the exertionsil e common defence were equal, there was no &bet that the intereseought to be equally so. With slid sentiments he held, it was itnpossihle for him to'de otherwise than support the motion for going into, a, Committee. He repeated, he did' nut epprove Petitions being brought forward now. But travel been . brought torward, he fiuding.it on the table of the House, could do no otherwise than give it that Support to which injustice and policy he telt it to be entitled. The Bishop of NORWteli, difFering on 'this Wet tion from most of the Members of the Order to'; which he had the honour to belong, was anxious to state the grounds of that difference. He regareed as much :es any man could do .he real interests of tee , Established Church, but he thooght the honeue prosperity, and security of the Established Chune would be best Promoted. by the nieatts proposed tin this Petition. The Reman Cethohcs solemnly die' claimed on oath the offeasiee tenets imputieffe them. Was their oath to be doubted, and waseeler evidence of their, sentiments to be taken in oppece lion to their own sieeion declaration ? Whet: Owe gave satisfaelion on the heels that releies d , amid politicel conduct, why were tecieinere species live tenets to be m ide the ground of excluding thou. 'from Office ? Nothiuge could be more sacre.l ttrsu the obligation of an oath among meni: No sit ollec t i clistiedion existed, or could be devised. • Not evv" thieves, could associate without this mimed reliance on each ethers' faith. If, therefore, the Catteeics could not be relied on in their rotessions of alicei" Mice on milt, ,they could not be relied on iu AY thing; they Were not fit to lee le society. ltd, assumed, of course, that their ateuratieu offensive doeirines was unque,tiunable,. and 0 3 e sequently that the exclusion which was louteie i " 3 the imputation of these offensive do6frines was le jile , liable. No wise Min could now htNeSirOtis to the penal.statutes utirepealed. 'Blackstone said, i" his conunentaries, that if ever the time slimed ce 3 ' whets the power of the Pop s eshould have got , '" I ' ) decay, and v/lieu elate should be no Preteieer the Crown of England, it wuu d be 'ewer to a bet , . gate the penal laws. Tile:Neer of the Pope. %4';'4 extinie, there was no remaining person of the eftee" of Stuart, and the circutneauces lot t ee We ed fee' dared it eecessiry to unite all nor sireugth ese, l " l4 - the enemy. 'limier all the e : eircoteseneics, , w ha t eecese coeld be git en ter cutitintilit4 the :ri,' l '` )°4 tin Catholics . ? He ettind now to In t; 0!I the greund ref tee Coronoriou Oath,..whw;, cote sintered il¢ the tuoye weak and rude of tilt that let o been offered. He Cited the V: . Qrtki of tl, o.tits established in 1459`, which Hund h.' ilia... William 0 1 .maintain the Estaelished rcit, and the Chureete thereto belonging, in their rights as they w er.,. ur should be fixed by law. It w:ie iliac:hilt to fiadde whet term this oath urlitatee ae.iiest , the doer' (4 : the Catholics. It eetutoey was nut ineOn+iitent with the laws of God, or with the enlightened pt,',,- cipleis of the Revolution, to give to the State ate zit!' vaateee of the services of m. n oetaleets ki ad !one hatever may ba their speculative opini" ll.4 ()3 matters of were doeiritie. He could not couceice the interests of the Church, or limey of any person conne&ed with it, could b. injured by men wee de ' dared oil theft solemn oath that they media not to any disturbance to the Establishment. For an iudividuel connedee N ith and interested for e 3 ‘; Church, ,and proud of the station be held to it, I'' , . should be sorry to thiol: he posseesed tiny righ t ` ll ,' property in it which could be eudaoeerad by abili t y !lug virttl , ,us fellow subj2,:ts and fellow chreteles tt. the -participation of the constitesional riebi' J. .gritish citizens. But when the indulgenees gale; r in 1782 and 17g3, and the repeal (Attie Test Al , e'ie, without any fear of the kind now er , Prc"' .... %- were called to memory, this obreetion vraiisbed. Ho had said thus much, in order to account for hit ditrereeee of opinion on this subject troai perse' for whose understanding and p oti ciples ee tgid d highest veneration, though, he Jould not f to them his clear judgment, and the hest his heart. • The e Bishop of He imolai hoped to prow t° Right ItieV. Friend, 'Whoie talents and vinees lie v 4 :9; highly respelled, that lie was tint aeluated by ') l :, tr i,itulcrant spirit a i s n te t z t g ing the.motian now b"! ) ,. 0 , their Lordships, indispensable guards of the t e Protestant I tesn a n ) ; l establisliment. God forbid h. should wish to i" t `'4 fete with the free exercise of the religion a art) , ; s vi re or class. Enlightened toleration was the clistieg ut iwe ing eharaderistie of t he British Church; hutd ire Catholics made no complaint of being.diderbo_Leir; the free exercise of their religion, of suffering ill petsons or property' on that account. klo thT; ali 10 • it absurd and unjust to visit on t h e Catholics " 1 , tits day the errors of their ancestors. He adtritteethtl, talents and virtues of a Fenelon, and ef glee i ° env , Professors of the Hotnae Catholic Faith. Th er° ` t ; e 4. , 'many Catholics hi our days erieallyidistiteeli.'aii, He did not think any speculative opinion okL itei fled a man from discharging his duty to the s , t ` e e s' but he could not consent to open to tlie'Cat"') the highest ()Kees of the State. He thoiii3O wits ought to he , et to tolore ab io.t but-he t''44 the 'restraint on the high ediees ought; t withdrawn.. 'The Bishop of BANGOR laid down as en rig . l6i r t . n ; trovertible ,opinion, _ l that. the State bad to)i, constitute a State religion, and to protezt t t he gion - by con fi ning within it the adminiitrati" great offices. -Power was not to be trusted to " vat ed allegiance. The eeeance of the Ca divided. They gave a partial obedience tcia2()te 1 Prelate, and to a Clergy f ore ign to the e t o . house. He was far turn ooppo.logio the ""' d iode of this day, a spirit at dangerous supers,itoi,* su" s edit% the mast sacred ohligatiom of re'i4n