The Sun. — London, England, 1836-05-10 00:00:00

S e after all. being meray between tweedle u m and tweedle-doe. - 7 'L-uehter ) f Er . e Mr . _. • tel . believed the general impression on the part mastersa that some Bill was necessary. The only 9uestioll then was, ' what kind of Bill should it he; should it be framed for the prote c ti on o f th e c hild ren , or f or t h e protect i on orrifetrhe master's ? He would beg lion. Gentlemen t o cons id er the eff ects an d consequences of mak i ng children work ttvelv e ely hours a day, or, in point of fact, fourteen hours a day ; of their witho u t a ll ow i ng t h em a s i ng l e h our the improvement e taeir minds, o r f or recreat i on .—( Hear, hear.) These chil ate ° also, be it reco ll ecte d , during the twelve hours they were en gaged in th e f actor i es, h a d to wa lk not less than 18 miles a ti.aY.--(No, no, and hear.) He could not help feeling that s ßight Hon. G en tl eman h a d i n th e P resent measure ma d e ore °", to a greater extent th an h e ought t o h ave d one , t h e an of the master manufacturers. [The latter part of the speech of the lion. Gentleman was utterly inaudible, in conse quence of the cries of " Question," and " Divide.") nu A lr• ROLLING said that gross aspersions had been cast the man u f acturers, an d they h a d most un j ustly been it rged with a want cf humanity, but he thought it toss a false humanity which would subject the children du the misery and starvation to which they must be re x, ,-cel, if the proposal of those who supported the views of the I ," ° 'ale Lord (Ashley) were acceded to. The effect of it would ueto throw 35,000 children out of employment. lie himself t e i l l 4l °Yed 1,400; an d if thi s mo ti on were acce d e d t o , 250 o f ein Would be deprived of employment. b oasted FIELDEN sa id t h e H on . M em b er f or B o l ton h a d of the superior condition of the factory hands o f Po i tou over o th er c l asses li v i ng i n t h at b oroug h ; b ut be e lie (Mr. Fielden) would listen to the comparison, he rmust know what was the condition of the people against ota the Ho n . M em b er com p are d th e f actory h an d s . Com mittee°°l, he .( Mr. Fielden) happened t o re c ollect th a t a cf this House had sat for two years to examine into t he, conditi on o f t h e h an d - l oom weavers, an d as a mem b er (4 that Committee he (Mr. Fielden) could assert that it hand Proved that one-half of th e i n h a bit an t s o f B o lt on were 'artd-loom weavers, and, moreover, that they and their fa !Mies lived throughout the year upon an average sum of I tvo pence three farthings a h ea d p er erclay.—(oh, oh.) Why t ''. e (Mr. Fi e ld en ) knew this fact; it was proved to the sa- P f action of the Committee ; let Hon. Members contra ',let it if they can.—( Hear, hear.) But, if this be the e t ias i .e, wh a t b ecomes o f t h e com p ar i son; i t was goo d f or no „e l ug; for it was on ly com p ar i ng th e f ac t or y h an d s o f B o l ton th a large body of the poorest possible community. He and nothi ng , th ere f ore , i n f avour o f f actory l a b our at B o lt on; ee d he ( Mr. Fielden) w o uld say that s o f u til e a c om p a ris o n vught not to sway the House for a moment, and then he Would„ put it to Hon. Members whether they had not heard i.," ° 4 1 11 this evening to determine them to resist the Bill of . / 4 "e Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade. That Right thr own Gentleman had said that 35,000 children would be 'grown out of work if this Bill did not pass. He (Mr. F.) Wa s convinced that not 35 would be thrown out of work by .1 1 " i :twiner, out the Bill. He felt satisfied of it as a manufac wer.—( Hear, hear.) Again, the House was told that the ma nufacturers would suffer by yielding to the Noble Lord's (4811 lee's) amendment. This was the worst appeal that could be made to the House ; for he was sure that if there was !' °Park of humanity in it, the House would never set private Inte rests against the life and happiness of these poor little overworked children. At any rate he (Mr. Fielden) as a ma nufacturer, end a large one too, would say that he would throw Th iba nufactures to the winds rather than he would balance for a du ty Great cheering.) But the House would do its " e u !Y ; it w ou ld not d r i ve hack th es e thi r ty-fi ve tho us a n d littl e children to labour incessantly for twelve hours a day, with an addition of the time they often had to spend in walking to and fromc their homes. It surely would not do this ! Allusion e Teen made in the course of this debate to the statement ° 1 Mr. as to the number of miles that a little child h ag to w . . ik in a factory. It was stated at Ma ea miles. Now "e recollected that a meeting of Members of Parliament and ' 3 l orativ es a t M anc h es t er l as t D ecem b er , s i m il ar calcula tions had been brought to the attention of himself and the • Me mbers e . of Parliament present, by the operatives. One had ma de a statement, showing that a child in one mill walk e d 24 'Ties in t h e d a y! merely w alki ng a ft er th e mac hi ne . H e ( •Fielden) was surprised at this statement, and he ob aerved that few could believe it possible. He (Mr. Fielden), ho wever, was not satisfied until he had tried its correctness ; a nd, therefore, when he went home, he (Mr. F.) went into his ° a`n 3, factorand with the clock before him, he watched a child at • her work, and ha v ing watched her some time, he the n calcu lated the distance she had to go in a day, and to his surprise found it to be nothing short of twenty miles.—(Loud e i ,"eers.) Talk to him of lightness of factory work after this ! b s ' " 3 monstrous —( Hear, hear.) And yet it is this that the ` 4,1 5• Member for Bolton wanted. He ( Mr. Fielden) called ° A u the Government, on the contrary, to enforce the present Litt, and not attempt to repeal it ; to send more inspectors d own into the cotton districts, and have it put in force rigidly. All the workpeople worked harder than they ought to do ; but the children were unmercifully treated. The inspectors l' e a d given their opinion as to what quantity of work a Vtild could bear, and thay had referred also to medical men is the districts where they were employed. But he (Mr. F.) tt ould like to know who would value such evidence as this colle cte d )), the inspectors for anything when compared with that of such men as Sir Anthony Carlisle, Dr. Ferro, Mr. Gr een, Dr. Blundell, and the other eminent men who had Pronounced our factory system to be nothing short of infanti e"le•—( Hear.) There had never yet beets -an efficient Act rt P arliament on this subject ; and if he had to bring in one, fa _s . hould not a ll ow more than ten hours' labour for any age in ;,"tortes. W e were told of foreign competition ; lie believed th 18 be th e greatest h um b ug i n t h e wor ld.—( H ear , h ear. ) B ut Was g political economy." Now, we had been warned by w -n e of the a bl e phy s i c i a ns examined by the C omm itt ee , th at 4. ° have no right to trench on " vital economy" to support Political econorey"—( Hear)—and he would say that if this e O use would pass this Bill and make these poor little children (Nt s ' r a ,haek i nto s l avery , t h en i t wante d anot h er re f orm i ng .- - ear, h ear. ) B ut w h at d o t h e po li t i ca l econom i sts say _ ben the N o bl e M arqu i s (Ch an d os ) b roug ht on hi s mot i on out agricultural distress, they said it would not signify if r''cgland did not grow a bushel of wheat or barley, so prospe rous were manufactures, and so completely were we indepen dent of the land ; and yet it seems that we cannot goon in ma nufactures without working these poor little children for Z ' a ire hours a day.—(H ear .) Th a t w as our prosperity v s (Mr. Fi e ld en ' s ) f ear was , th a t thi s was only a beg in . e'g, of a total r e peal of Lord Alth or p' s A c t, and that th e I , act Hon. Gentleman would bring in a Bill next year to re -4:41 that Act. His opinion as a manufacturer, and as one of t o ru i e feelings of humanity, was that Lord Althorp's Act ought bi o i e maintained and enforced, and, if it was repealed by this t;g,s vote Bandh Mr. Fielden) would go on working for a ( ",itours he would never cease while he had life.— ho ne er _ . . s ) We had always been told that shortening the hours la bour o f th ese poor children would ruin us. When the to ;rs were ninety hours a week, eighty-nine hours, seventy sixty-eight hours—at every time when we wanted voeal reduced—our opponents have said the lessening the time 14 1 d ruin us ; and yet we have shortened them, and we are th e .. ,ucw that we are more prosperous than ever.—(Great tie t er '"g•) Then he asked the House if such predictions were kifalse, and he implored it to adopt the amendment of the th r °l e Lord.—[The Hon. Member was very much ch eere d pgbout his speech, and at the close of it. k es lr e R. PEEL wished to separate the appeal which the Hon. jud e -w er for Oldham had made to the reason and deliberate p a p. r tient of the House, from that which he had made to their as the : an appeal, he must say, however, which, standing iot e e "on. Gentleman did, free from the imputation of all (4 rcoted motives, came from him with peculiar grace. — % t e ar, hear.) There was no speech that had been delivered In a night, however creditable it was to 'the Hon. Gentle tire who pronounced it, th a t h a d so g r ea t an e ff ec t i n convin -404 " L iu , of the impropriety of acceding to this motion, as the 1-1 0 „ e " of the Hon. Member for Oldham ( Mr. Fielden). The toil :; Gentl eman h a d s t a t e d t h at t h e A ct did not pro hibi t th at uren from being worked in relays ; but he himself admitted 1 43 , a there was an insuperable objection to this system of re st ; i nasmuch as he stated that no child under thirteen years ti o4 - ge could work more than eight hours a day. The clues to t , a *ith hi m was , w h e th er h e s h ou ld res i s t an y amen d men t ti l , tL e Bill or not. Now, although he was not prepared to say Would vote for the precise amendment proposed by the 1 01, t lion. Gentleman, for he thought the proposition ought th e ; ly e been carr i e d mu ch further—thinking, as he did, that ci l i te 4 y , as it stood was inoperative in many respects—he felt fo r alt anon to s en d th e Bill into Committee. If he now voted t4pp,Lere proposition of amendment, he reserved to himself the t._ of - tigh t d proposition proposing such alterations in the law as the h e di. , eeni expedient; but if, on the general ground, that Ne,, ti , Lot think the ,Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition 1 :41 41 7 enough, he resisted it in the present stage, lie at I t t ()t i n t his name to the conclusion that the present law was it ° i„ ° Pe, and that, as such, it ought to be continned. Well, atts - the course he proposed adopting, was he acting for the lithe of he • • a t , manity ? His conscience assured him that he was. rou te? "ad t the Hon. Member for Oldham and others told the -"tes Why, that under the present system false certifi ki eite: f et a,ge were constantly given, and that through these bec'nlidren professing to be twelve years of age, though goo . '„t3• under eleven, were allowed to work as adults. The CaaeMember for Oldham stated that he knew of 3,000 such "act. 1° the districtof the country with which he was con _d. g illg s Now, s h ou ld he be satisfied with such a state of 1)0t, tindoubtedlv he ought not; and certainly he would 41 11 e fi 'ut even the lion. Member for Oldham himself, firmly t t 1 1 :41 j'Pcsed the Right Hon. Gentleman's motion, had preyed k not satisfied with the law as it stands. He told '‘'e that the practical effect of the Act was to reduce the % te r o f . thmtber se working hours to eight, while, in his opinion, the t at h e ,nould be ten. The Hon. Member told the House tj b t ~t no ught an eight hours' Bill bad, and that there ought k tlit i t ;,, as sed a ten hours' Bill. But though he thought the a, t ; (l t; o u r s' Bill bad, he would keep it in its present state; th dol ' o - e wo rse it was, the better for his Furpose ; because, by he knew he should compel the Ministers to call for kt4tire he approved of. Now in this species of legis iery f or 13 ' not concur.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Mem licatiioeut`el,huM was not alone. Others supported him ; and Aared ',U the list stood the lion. Member for Hull. That th'sPute er had, in a would-be spirit of facetiousness, com - " about the hours ot child-labour in factories to Ire %pi " The difference there be alio uld It Tweedl e -d am an d T wee dle-dee." L t " say, that had the Hon. Member enacted the a vet c edle-dum-b on th e p re sent occasion, he would if! I.4'n townte more wisdom.— Hear, and a laugh.) But to k ui estsi,, i ne subject under consideration. He thought that ate effe e .. ° _ c s were to be imposed at all, they should be final 'lve• Was the existires law, as regarded those re tlehat ti i s e '. l l° ttod effective ? not.—( Hear, hear.) t o h, ',,was the course which should be taken ? Simply d oi et 0114.1 repeal that part of the law which appeared "R 80Judicially to the interests of all parties ; but while , be Would render the remaining, details of the measure what they were not now—operative and effective. To leave the law as it now stood, he could not consent. After reading the evidence before the House; and after, through its instrumentality, convincing himself that the major part of the restrictions which Parliament imposed upon the employers of factory children, were daily and openly violated, he could not, on the score of humanity, leave the law as it stood.—( Hear, hear.) (The Right Hon. Baronet here referred to extracts from the evidence of Drs. Horner and Howell, the medical inspectors, to prove that through the medium of false certificates the provisions of the existing laws were constantly violated.) With such evidence before him, he thought it necessary to adopt some precaution against the cupidity of parents and masters. As he understood the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman it was this. That children under 12 years of age should conti nue subject to the present law (or, in other words, that the period of labour should be eight hours), but that children above 12 years might be called on to work for sixty-nine hours a. week, or twelve hours for five days, and nine for the sixth, being Saturday. He thought that even with this amendment the law would be in an unsatisfactory state, but feeling that it was quite impossible to please all parties, and that the cure was not quite as bad as the disease ; feeling, also, that the existing law was not consistent with humanity ; he was will ing to entertain the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposal.— ( Hear, hear.) Lord F. EGERTON said his intention was to vote in favour of the original motion : but, following the example of his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth, he would not pledge himself to be confined by the precise terms of the amendments the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had in contemplation. Mr. FRENCH said a few words in support of the amend ment, which, owing to the cries of " Question" and " Di vide," were inaudible in the gallery. Mr. GOULBURN said, that the original Factory Bill of 1833, called for great and considerable amendment; and if the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite were then proposing to the House a Bill for the purpose of generally amending that measure, he would have given him his support ; but when he was called upon to amend the Bill in various of its details, coupled with the condition that the amendment so to be made should contain a clause subjecting children under thirteen years of age to twelve hours' labour, he contended the ques tion then took a totally different shape, and his view being not to repeal the clause, the repeal of which the Right Hon. Gentleman views as indispensable, but to amend the other parts of the Bill, which the Right Hon. Gentleman admits arc objectionable, he felt it impossible to lend his support to the proposition. They were told that great frauds were per petrated under the cloak of the existing law ; but in his opinion, the opportunities for the commission of fraud would be far more increased than diminished, by the adop tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition.—(Hear, hear.) Under every view of the case, therefore, he felt called upon to support the amendment of his Noble Friend. Mr. WAKLE Y said 'it was evident that a conspiracy had long existed to evade the provisions of the Factory Act, and the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, instead of endeavouring to enforce its provisions more effectually, now came down with a Bill to destroy one of the most vital princi ples of that Act. He hoped and trusted that the House would, upon every principle of sound justice and humanity, reject such a proposition. _ _ _ .Mi. P. THONISON replied—He assured the House that he was most anxious to co-operate with Hon. Gentlemen op posite in any measure likely to render the law on this subject operative and effectual. If the Bill went into Committee, he should be most willing to lend his best attention to any amend ments which might be proposed in respect to certificates, and other regulations, to prevent deception and fraud. The House then divided— For the amendment 1 76 Against it Majority in favour of the Bill --2 The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and at half-past one o'clock this morning the House adjourned. HOUSE OF LORDS, M 479. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at five o'clock. STAFFORD INDEMNITY BILL. On the motion of the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, this Bill was read a third time and passed. MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. The Teignmouth Harbour, Edinburgh Poor, Forfar Rail way, Totness Roads, and other Bills, were brought up from the Commons. IRISH MUNICIPAL BILL. Lord FITZGERALD and VESEY presented a petition, signed by 180 inhabitants of Mallow, against certain clauses in the Irish Municipal Bill. - CLYDE NAVIGATION. Earl ROSEBERY presented a petition from Stirling, against this Bill. SABBATH OBSERVANCE. Lord RADNOR presented some petitions on this subject. The Lord CHANCELLOR moved for certain amended returns respecting the Court of Chancery. OFFICE OF CHANCELLOR. Lord LYNDHURST begged to ask the Noble Lord whether any alteration was to be made in the retiring pension of the Lord Chancellor in tho new Bill, 'as his duties were to be separated from the judicial office ? The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it was not pro posed to make any alteration. The retiring pension of the Chief Judge in Equity, was to be precisely the same as the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS.—(IRELAND.) The Order of the Day having been read, their Lordships went into Committee on the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill. Lord LYNDHURST rose for the purpose of moving some verbal amendments to some of the clauses. Clause 1 was agreed to. On clause 2 being read, Viscount MELBOURNE wished to trouble their Lord ships with a few observations relative to the clause which had just been read. The Bill was intended to provide payment for the Municipal Officers and in deciding upon these amendments their Lordships were deciding upon clause 5 and upon clause 22, which involved the most important principles of the Bill. .Their Lord ships themselves had agreed to an instruction to the Committee which involved the principle of these amendments. However, that instruction was not at all binding on the Committee, and if their Lordships saw any reason to adopt another course, they were not bound to persevere in what might be pointed out to be erroneous. They were estab lishing a different principle in Ireland from that which had been established in the towns in England. They were depriving the Government of the assistance of a body to whom they could refer, and whose weight and authority might assist the Government.--( Hear.) They were adopting a totally different system from that which had been recognized in England; and omitting all topics which did not bear upon the question, he would ask them whether they were willing to part with the advantages which were likely to be derived from local municipal government ? He thought that his Noble friend, and all those who argued with him had indulged with respect to this Bill—its appointment of local municipal officers, and the frequency of elections—in great exaggeration. The evils to which the Noble and Learned Lord alluded, were obvious to all, and it could not be lamented too much if political feeling existed in Ireland, and that it was increased by those whose duty it was to temper and allay it.—(Hear, hear.) He ( Lord Melbourne) could riot admit that the Municipal Corporation Bill will make any material addition to that.— ( Cries of " Hear.") It had been stated it would pro, duce political excitement, violent agitation, and end in civil war. That civil war was a most convenient argu ment whenever any important change was proposed -whenever the tenor of a man's whole life was about to undergo revision then came civil war. That was also a most monstrous exaggeration, and the Bill could not possibly be conceived to aggravate those evils which did un doubtedly exist in that country to the degree stated by the Noble and Learned Lord.—( Hear.) There was one matter which he had omitted to allude to, when he last addressed their Lordships upon that subject. It had been stated that 9 Geo. IV. contained previsions which would be used as a substitute for present town councils. Now that Act if it had been once re jected would not be proposed again, and would therefore be wholly inoperative ; and he could not see anything in these amendments which would give that Act more effectual operation. Upon these grounds, and under these circumstances, he called upon their Lordships, on the general principle of justice, upon the present state of the two countries, upon the important principle of maintaining the connection between the two coun tries upon local conveniency, and the advantage of all con cerned—he called upon their Lordships to reject the amend ment which had been proposed. Lord L YNDH UR ST perfectly agreed with the Noble Vis count, that when the Committee came to the clause mentioned by him, that would be the proper time for discussing the whole principle of the matter. He would refer in a very few words to what had fallen from the Noble Viscount as to the provisions of the 9th Geo. 4. The Noble Viscount had tried to make out that Act to be one of no great consequence—in fact, to be of no consequence, but he had not referred to any facts to hear out his views of the case. In opposition to what had been advanced by the Noble Vis count, he would refer their Lordships to the Report of the Commissioners upon which this Bill was founded. The Noble Lord then read a paragraph, which stated that the provisions of the 9th of Geo. IV. had been most widely acted upon— they were most beneficial, and could be introduced into places which had not yet taken the benefit of them.—( Hear, hear, hear.) With respect to what had fallen from the Noble Viscount charging that side of the House and hi mse lf, particularly, with using exaggerated language in speaking of the elections of that country, be would put it to any Noble Lord who r sided in that country, to say whether it was possible for any language to exaggerate upon such a subject. He would ask . their Lord s hip s to l oo k to the report of the other House of Parliament, disclosing scenes of outrage and violence, of which the inhabitants of this coun try could form no idea. That was the only answ er h e h a d to t h e attacks of the Noble Viscount. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—As a Me m b er o f that House, as connected with that country affected by the Bill on the table, felt bound to offer a few words to their Lordships. It was true the instruction was ca rr i e d, an d was entitled to great weight, but it would be d es i ra bl e t h e i r Lordships should agree to some alteration to the amen d ments. It was t rue th e i ns t r uction to the committee was carried and was entitled to great weight, but at the same time he hoped Noble Lords opposite would pause and reflect before they pressed their amendments to this Bill, and allow themselves to be advised to make such alterations in them as would render them a little more palateable to the wishes, and more accord ant with the spi r it an d f ee li ngs of this country. Their Lord. ships ought to cons id er t h e s t a te of the public mind upon this question, a n d w ith ou t com p r omising their own opinions, THE SUN, _LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY 10, 1836. to pay scme little deference to it in the manner iu which they proceeded upon the present occasion. It must be evident to all their Lordships that the form of proceeding which Noble Lords opposite had adopted, in reference to this Bill, was the very same as that attempted by the corresponding party in the House of Commons, where it was admitted to be an attempt to frame an entirely new Bill, instead of the original one introduced by the Government. Now, if Noble Lords took up this very proposition, which wa s negatived by a very large majority in the other House, he would ask, might not certain persons out of doors have an opportunity of saying —he admitted perhaps unfairly and unreasonably, but still might it not offer an excuse to some such person to say—that the object of Noble Lords was not to amend, but to defeat the Bill? He did not himself accuse the Noble and Learned Lord opposite of having any such in tention; but he asked whether, in England and in Ireland, there might not he many persons who would do so ?—( Hear, hear.) If the Noble and Learned Lord had dealt a little more sparingly with the subject—if he had but left a few of the larger towns to enjoy their Corporations, then at least there would be some pretensions to act upon the same form, and with the same general views as had been displayed to wards England, and then the gross and direct outrage upon the feelings of the whole mass of the Irish population, con veyed in the proposition of the Noble and Learned Lord, would have been spared. It might still be a question, per haps, with some of their Lordships, whether it might not be right to take away from the Irish people all the rights and liberties of a free nation, and all participation in the British Constitution, and to prevent them having elections at all. But if they allowed them the advantages of the British Con. stitution in other respects, he should like very much to know why they should not have it in this most essential particular ? If the Irish people were not considered worthy of this right, what was the meaning of the Act of Union ? Was it now for those who had carried and supported that Act to turn round and say to the people of England, "the Irish people are an ignorant, illiterate, bigotted set of men, and accordingly we have thrown them into closer contact with you, and mixed them amongst you ?" On the other hand, with regard to Scotland, was it said to her, at the time of her union with England, that she was not fit to enjoy a free Constitution ? If such were the feeling, it should have been uttered in 1793 ; it should have-been declared, and he should like to have heard it said in 1782, when the volunteers were up all over the coun try, in support of the Government. He repeated, therefore, that this attempt was a most flagrant outrage and insult upon the whole Irish nation. For England measures had been passed which it was admitted gave increased influence and means to the democratic power in the country, while by the present amended Bill it was proposed for Ireland to destroy all her po pular or democratic influences, and throw everything into the hands of the Crown. If they acceded to this proposition, he must say they would be giving such power to the monarchy of these realms as had never been given it up to the present pe riod. He believed that it had long been the object of a cer tain party to keep the great body of the people of Ireland from having any voice or participation in the affairs of Parliament. Allusions had been made last year, in their Lordships' House, and also on -the present occasion, to what was termed a party Bill—he must say he never saw any party Bill so glaringly so as this one as it stood. The argument against the people of Ireland now was, not on account of their religion, but on ac count of the elections.—( Hear, hear.) It did not signify now whether the Priests exercised their influence over the people's minds or not; this fact was quite sufficient, that the choice of the people did not fall upon the men whom the party in ques tion liked to see returned. He could not admit the proposi tion that the people of Ireland had shown themselves in any degree unfit for using the right of election ; on the contrary, he maintained that they had ever shown themselves possessed of a just reverence of the British Constitution, and they had a right, as British subjects, to as much freed om i n t h e elece tive principle, as the people of England had at any time en joyed._ ( Hear, from the Opposition.) Noble Lords might cheer, who recollected the times when even in England it was thought no harm that certain persons and certain families had the power of returning themselves to Parliament. This was not considered in the light of undue influence in elections, even in this country.—( Hear, hear.) The fact with regard to Ireland was a very plain one, which it would be vain in their Lordships to attempt to put out of sight--namely, that the majority of the people of Ireland were Catholics, and there fore it was a natural and unavoidable consequence, that the prevailing party in Ireland should be a Catholic party. If it was supposed that this House had power to pull down a large national party, whatever it might be, it would one day find cut its mistake, and in a way, perhaps, to threaten its very ex istence. He warned their Lordships that they were about to throw out this Bill in a way most mischievous, not only to the country, but to their own dignity. If they were not pro voking a collision—for he hoped that would not be the case— they were certainly proclaiming a most decided difference in opinion with the other House of Parliament. All he could say was, that ,if such a collision should arise--:if that view should be taken by the country of their Lordships' conduct as should render such a collision unavoidable—truth would oblige him to declare that their Lordships had themselves provoked it, and he trusted that they might not have cause to repent it.—( Cheers.) The Duke of RICHMOND said, that whilst he cer tainly could not have voted for the Bill as it came up from the House of Commons, at the same time he thought the arguments of the Noble Marquis upon the method by which it had been attempted to defeat it in their Lordship's House were well worthy of attention. Whilst he agreed to the pro priety of abolishing the present form of Municipal Government in the greater part of the Corporations of Ireland, he could not see why some of the larger towns, such as Dublin, Bel fast, Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, Waterford, and Cork, should not be permitted to have Corporations.—( Hear.) When it was recollected that the proposed franchise was fixed at 10/., lie did not think that the corporate principle could operate so mischievously in such towns as he had named, as in other more insignificant ones in which Corporations at present existed. He felt that the question might be viewed out of doors as a Catholic question. He (the Duke of Rich mond) was originally opposed to the Catholic Relief Bill, but when once it was passed into a law, he determined that he would never suffer its being repealed either openly or by a side-wind. The Noble Duke concluded by stating that he should support the clause as it originally stood, and if that were carried, that he should move that schedule A be re tained in the Bill, leaving the towns in schedule B to be dis franchised altogether. The LORD CHANCELLOR remarked that, with re gard to corporate property, he thought that the same principle should be acted upon for Ireland as had been applied to Eng land. What was it that the English Bill did ? After making certain provisions and regulations for local expenditure, it left the surplus, if there happened to be any, for the benefit of the town to which it belonged ; but by the present Bill the Crown was to have the sole control over all the corporate property of Ireland, and was to dispose of it, through Commissioners ap pointed by it, and removeable by it also. He felt it his duty to call their Lordships' attention, if only to this sirig'e view of the case, and to the innumerable offices and the vast ex penditure which it might be in the power of the Crown, through this commission, to make. He wished to know upon what principle it was to be attempted to deny to Ireland, even to her largest towns, the same exercise of elective free dom, and the same- control over her own local affairs and property, which had been given to England ? It was to the whole system upon which this invidious distinction was at tempted that he (the Lord Chancellor) felt himself opposod. If these amendments were carried, it would go forth that the people of Ireland were not fit to enjoy the same free laws as England—that she was to be outlawed, and put out of the pale of society, and that this was necessary in order to secure the peace of the country. The Noble and Learned Lord opposite had spoken of the riots and outrages which occurred at the elections in Ireland. He a d m i tte d t h at suc h m i ght b e the case occasionally, but he would ask whether such disor ders were not equally liable to occur at elections in Eng land? Now, what would their Lordships think of a proposal for a select Committee to inquire whether outrages and riots had occurred at the elections in certain towns, and if it were found to be so, to destroy the corporations of all those towns? He had heard, he thought, even within the walls of that House, allusions passed upon the English Corporations Act, and the way in which it had worked, and then it was asked whether they would extend the same state of things to Ire land. Now, for his own part, he should say, that if the English Corporation Act had worked as it was reported to have done, he did not see any reason, as far as such experience went, not to apply the same principle to Ireland.—( Hear. ) The Earl of HADDINGTON admitted the doCtrine that equal justice should be done to Ireland and to. England, and it was upon this very ground, it was with a view to se cure equal justice and equal rights to the people of England and those of Ireland that he supported the amendments pro posed to this Bill. It was alleged that the Corporations of Ireland were exclusive bodies. He admitted that they were so, and he concurred with Noble Lords opposite in the opi nion that those exclusive bodies should no longer be permitted to remain. But the difference between himself arid Noble Lords opposite upon the subject was this—the Noble Lords on the other side of the House wished to remove the Protestant exclusive bodies which bad hitherto existed, and to erect Ca tholic exclusive bodies in their stead—( No, no, from the Mi nisterial Benches)—on the other hand, he and Noble Lords on his side of the House proposed, with a view to promote harmony between the Catholics and Protestants of Ire land, and to prevent future trouble and discord in the country, that these Corporations should cease altogether to exist. The amendments now before the House proposed to do away indiscriminately with all the Corporations of Ireland. The Noble Persons to whom he had just referred seemed to think there were certain towns in which it would be proper to leave those Corporations in existence. 'Now this, he must say, he thought a very invidious proposition. Where, he would ask. would be the equal justice in proceeding in this way ? Had they done so for England ? had they done so for Scotland ? and if not, why should they do so in Ireland ? But, abstractedly from this view of the case, he was opposed to the proposition on many other grounds. He was against leaving these Corporations in places where, of necessity, their dangerous tendency would operate upon a larger scale, and taking them away from places where there would be com paratively little danger in their existence. He thought there would be much less danger in allowing the corporate principle to be scattered over the sma'ler town= throughout the country, than in fostering its growth in a few large towns only, in Dublin, for instance where nothing short of a perfect Parliament for poli tical agitation would be erected under its influence. He denied the allegation that he or his party were opposed to the elective principle, because under it persons had been returned who were not of their way of thinking, but because they felt con vinced that the freedom of election did not exist to Ireland. They were anxious, therefore, that the excitement of the pro posed municipal elections should not be added to those which c.4.eady existed there. It had been alleged that they wished t) deprive the people of Ireland of the due share which they held in the representative principle of the other Abuse of Par- Fitment. Ile denied this allegation altogether, and he must say that, looking at the proceedings in th e ot h er H ouse, t h e people of Ireland appeared to possess at least their full share of influence there.—( Hear, hear.) Upon every principle of sound policy, and with a view to protect the people of Ireland in their true interests, by rejecting the shadow of municipal re form and freedom which had been held out to them, though he denied that they were losing sight of their substance, he should support his Noble Friend's amendment. He knew that there were thousands and thousands of people throughout Ireland who would be rejoiced if This bone of contention, about which they had so long been harassed, were taken away from them. Those who were anxious for this measure were those who were urging on the question for a repeal of the Union, and who de sired to obtain that, or, at least, an equivalent for it. Why did he assert this ? Because they themselves had frankly avowed that they demanded a repeal of the Union, or an equivalent, and first to b 3 estimated by them as an equivalent was this very Corporation B:11.—( Hear, hear.) That was put in the first rank, and then such a Church Bill as would insure to the people of Ireland, aye, and to the voluntary system gentry in England, the enforcement of that principle that nobody was to give anything to the support of a religion which he dissented from. These, and such as these, were to be the means for procuring an equivalent for the repeal of the Union. This, he considered, was a most important part of the question. He did not wish to enter it, but the Noble Lord had thought fit to enter into the general discussion. He had entered into it so far, because he felt it to be his duty, as he considered the question one of the deep est importance to the peace and security of the country, and to the integrity of the British empire. ' He knew this, that let them take this question as referring to that unhappy land, and let them decide . it which way they - would, that still the alter native would be an evil. ft was no gratification to him to vote as he felt bound to do, but he was obliged—he was compelled to do so. Either plan must be adopted. If they adopted the one first proposed, it was fraught with the greatest mischief, and might end in the ruin of the empire ; if they took the other, there was still a fair prospect of laying the foundation of the peace and security of the country. The Marquis of CL ANRICARDE observed, that it had been said by the Noble Earl, that if the Corporations were established they would constitute an Irish House of Com mons, and that the Noble Lord was afraid of an Irish House of Commons. Now, he would, in reply, remark that the people of Ireland had an Irish House of Commons, and he thanked God for it. The Marquis of CONYNG HAM remarked that it could not be said that Irishmen asked for anything unreasonable, when they demanded municipal reform. The only question he thought ought to be this, how is such reform to be carried into effect, so that it may be a full, efficient, and satisfactory measure—so that the' people might have the local control over their own property in such municipal. institutions as were given to them ? Their Lordships had given an efficient re form to England—they had given a boon of equal importance to Scotland ; could they then expect that Ireland would be satisfied with less?—( Hear, and cheers ) They were told that there was a broad line of separation, a marked distinction to be made between the mode in which justice was to be con ferred on England, and doled out to Ireland. Did they expect that Ireland would remain contented under such an indignity? Did they not proclaim to the people of Ireland that they were unworthy of managing their own affairs. He totally denied that there was any unfitness or any unworthiness on the part of his countrymen. The chartered Corporations might have abused their trust ; but as an Irishman he protested against any distinction being made between the two countries so unjust as that which he referred to, and which was now proposed to be made. Let their Lordships make any such distinction, and it would be anything but satisfactory to the people of that country —it would do anything but promote peace and tranquillity in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) His Majesty's Government had in troduced a Bill based upon justice--a Bill which sought to regenerate and not to destroy Corporations. The Noble Lord had, on the other hand, introduced a Bill which " out-heroded Herod"—a Bill which swept away even the names of Corpora tions from the face of Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear.) If one thing more than another could tend to increase the influence of Mr. O'Connell—if they could do one thing more than ano ther to give strength and energy to agitation and to agitators— it would be doing this.--( Hear, hear.) When he talked of Mr. O'Connell, lie did so because that gentleman had been so frequently alluded to by Noble Lords opposite—he did so, be cause there appeared to be a determination on their part to refuse any measure which that gentleman supported.—( Hear, hear, and cheers from the Ministerial Members.) Let them depend upon it that the most effectual check to a g itation was to do equal justice to Ireland.—( H ear , hear.) In common with h:s fellow-countrymen he suffered from agitation. The more they dealt out justice the more was tranquillity secured and agitation depressed. He had no intention of rising ; but he could not help protesting against their Lordships' doing an act of injustice to Ireland, which he assured them would be felt from one end of that country to the other. —( Cheers. ) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed that the Noble Marquis who had last sat down talked a great deal of the injury they should,infliet upon Ireland by not doing equal jr.stiee. Now what, he asked, was the equal justice proposed by this Bill ? It was to take from the Protestants the power they had in the Corporations, and this for the purpose of de livering it over to the Roman Catholics. It was not only to take the power now vested in the Corporations and place it in the hands of the Roman Catholics, but it was to give to the agitators and the Catholic priests the complete representa tion of Ireland.—( Hear.) He asked the Noble Marquis, as a Protestant landlord, was that a state of things which he would like to see established ? If lie were compelled to make a choice, then be should prefer the Bill of the Noble and Learned Lord as being, of the two presented to the House, the better Bill. Lord HAT H ERTON did not agree with the Noble Lord as to this Bill, although he entirely concurred with him as to the accuracy of his description of the evils likely to flow from the system of agitation in Ireland ; but it was his opinion they never could grapple with them—they never could put an end to them until they were prepared to do justice to that coun try. Did they believe that the English Corporation Bill was necessary ? What, then, were the Irish Corporations ? He considered it to be most important to secure to the people British institutions, and he only wished the question to be treated, as far as regarded Ireland, with the same confidence that it ought to be, when applied to this country. A Noble Lord had a few nights ago said, that the same forms of Go vernment were not always applicable to Ireland which were framed to suit England. Now, although the same forms might not be always applicable, the same measure of justice ought to be so. Though they maintained the same judicial establishments in the two countries, yet they had the Civil Bill Courts in Ireland, as being required by the peculiar ci rc umstances of the country. The same peculiarity in fluenced them in their determination upon the Church ques tion.—(Hear, hear.) Ile advocated both in England and Ireland the Corporation principle, as being applicable to both countries ; but in Ireland requiring some modifications, which were necessary for the due discharge of Magisterial offices. He could not see any reason why they ought not to act with liberality to that country, or what justice there could be in refusing what was now sought for. From the time of the conquest of Ireland down to the Union, no great measure of conciliation had been adopted. Down to this period no system was adopted calculated to unite the two people under one system of government. From the period of the Union down to the accession of Lord Grey's Administration, during all that period of thirty years, the Irish people derived no be nefit from the Union. What was done ? The Liberal party forced open the doors of Parliament; but there was no equality of patronage or favour shown to them. There was no assimilation. He was satisfied, that they might write laws —they would be mere parchment laws. As laws they would be considered to be so legally, but they never could produce a complete identity of interests. Ireland never would ke like Lancaster and Scotland, a part of England, until they ex tended to her the same system of government—the same libe ral treatment ; until, in short, the same institutions were con ferred upon her.—( Hear.) Their Lordships then divided— For Lord Lyndhurst's amendment • Against it Majority —54 Lord LYNDHURST was then willing either as the Noble Viscount or Noble Marquis pleased, to go through the clauses one by one, or to have his amendments all passed pro . forma, and afterwards recommitted, or that they might be recom mitted and the discussion taken upon them. The Marquis of LA N SDO WN E remarked as the House was prepared for a discussion, lie thought it better to go on with the Bill then. The third clause, with one or two slight amendments, was then agreed to. Upon the motion of Lord LYNDHURST, clauses 4,5, 6,7, 8, and 9, were struck out. Lord LYNDHURST observed that the 10th clause was the same as the 4th clause in this Bill.—lt was agreed to. Upon the motion of Lord LYNDHURST, the clauses 11 to 21 inclusive were struck out. Upon its being proposed to strike out clause 22, The Duke of RICHMOND objected to it, as it was by this clause Aldermen and Councillors should be appointed in towns named in schedules A and B. He could not see why Corporations ought not to be given to large towns. He would not give them to small towns, for he did not think that Corporations were required in small towns, either in Eng land or Ireland. But he felt that in Dublin and other great commercial towns there could be no danger in giving to the people the management of their own affairs. Sincerely be lieving, as he did, that no mischief could follow from having Corporations in the large towns, he should object to the clause being struck out. He should propose a motion to that ef fect, either on the report being brought up, or upon the third reading. Viscount MELBOURNE—Move it now. The Duke of RICHMOND then stated that he opposed the clause being struck out. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE felt, he said,. SO much the importance of this clause—it was one which so materially affected and involved the principle of the Bill—that it was impossible for him to give a silent vote upon it. The clause was one that he was most anxious to retain. He and his Noble Friends were anxious to respect Corporation rights in Ireland —..to respect ancient Corporate property; and which, for the first time, that House was now invited to invade ; an example which, he could tell that House, would not on a fu ture occasion be forgotten.—(Bear.) He was anxious to do this, for the purpose of keeping alive the Corporate principle, of preserving property in the hands of persons competent to manage it. Bat the Noble and Learned Lord had in an authorative manner assured them that the people of Ireland were incompetent to be entrusted with the elec tion of those who were to manage such property—that they could not b e entrusted w i th suc h power, either with safety to themselves or safety to the country ; and yet by some fatality, at the - very time that the Noble and Learned Lord pro nounced a general sentence of incompetency against a vrlple people, the Noble and Learned Lord called their attention to the 9th George IV., which was an Act of Parliament by which such matters were provided for, and that too by popu lar elections in that country.—( Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord had abstained from telling them what was the amended title which he meant to give to the new Bill.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The former title must be altered. That described the Bill as being one to regulate the municipal corporations of Ireland. To "regulate' them the Noble and Learned Lord did not mean.—( Hear.) To call his Bill a Bill to " amend" the corporations Would be absurd,and the Noble and Learned Lord had not vet fon.-.3 the courage (so we understood the Noble Marquis) to call it a Bill to abolish them.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But what was the real title of this Bill, which ought to be perfectly and dis tinctly described ? It was a Bill for the purpose of vesting in one man—for the purpose of vesting in the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—all the privileges and all the property of the Cor porations of Ireland.—(" Cries of " Hear.") No one could suppose that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland could administer that property himself; every one would admit that he must have agents ; but all that it was necessary to do was to vest the power entirely in him was to provide, as the Noble and Learned Lord had provided, that the persons appointed to administer the property'should not be responsible to the people, but re sponsible to him, and to him only, and that they should be removable at his pleasure.—( Hear.) Why, could any ma chinery be contrived of a more exclusive character for the pur pose of making him sole master of the whole amount of that corporate property? That power was vested exclusively in him, and yet the Noble Earl told him that the principle had for its object to prevent exclusion.—(Cheers.) He was con fident that if their Lordships adopted the course which was recommended to them by the Noble Lords opposite they would take a step which they would soon wish to retrace.—( Hear.) It would have the effect of separating every one of these towns, and of laying the foundation of complaints which were not the less likely to be actively and constantly pro claimed, because they would be derived from a perpetual com parison of their condition with the state of other towns in England, with respect to which they had proceeded on a prin ciple distinctly opposite.--( Hear, hear.) Their Lordships were about to confer a power on the Lord Lieutenant of Ire land, which he was sure he might say that the present Lord Lietenant of Ireland would be one of the first to disclaim. That Noble Lord would be one of the first to feel he ought not to have the power of administering for local purposes that which he could not so well administer as could the persons who were locally interested. This was a proceeding in the inverse ratio of civilization. Of the Government of Austria he wished to speak with respect, but he thought it no disres pect to' say of that Government, that it had the reputation of being perhaps the most cautious Government, and the most apprehensive as regarded the effect of any change. Even the Government of Austria had—he would not say introduced— because it had existed before—but had extended and conferred municipal government--( Hear, hear)—on the very ground al leged in this case, that it was the greatest benefit which could be conferred on the people, and the one most likely to prevent them from mixing in the disorders, and embarking in the courses which were hostile to the Government of the State.—( Hear. ) In concurring in the motion of the Noble Duke, he did so in a disposition to meet certain Noble Lords in this House in a spirit of fair deliberation—he would not call it compromise—he did so because he felt that, with regard to these particular towns, there could not be, in his opinion, a question as to their being entitled to the enjoyment of a continuance of the privi leges which it was proposed by this Bill to preserve. He would at the same time declare, that against the total extinction of municipal institutions in Ireland—against an authoritative de claration from this House to the people of Ireland, that.in this House the people of Ireland were thought unfit for all the pur poses of local government, he must enter his most solemn protest in the strongest terms that he could express it. Such was the opinion he entertainad now—such was the opinion he should adhere to, and he trusted it would be adhered to by all those who felt an interest in the success of this great mea sure.—( Cheers). The Duke of WELLINGTON said that a more tyrannical Bill never was yet introduced into any House than was this Bill, and greater powers were never conferred by any House than it was intended to confer on these coporations by this Bill, at the same time that it deprived the corporations of the power of ad - ministering justice, and all those powers they had held up to this time.. The Noble Lord opposite said they had conferred certain powers on the English Corporations, and why not confer simi lar powers on the Corporations of Ireland? It might be sup - posed, from the course of argument of the Noble Lord, that their Lordships had never looked at or considered the different situations of Ireland as compared with other countries; that they had not examined the reasons which were given fur pass ing those painful Acts of Parliament which had been submitted to their consideration ; in short there really existed no differ ence between the people of this country arid the Irish people. What was the fact? They had not established the same prin ciple ; they had taken quite a different course ; they'had ap plied a totally different scale of taxation. The effect of the Bill proposed would be to establish an exclusive system in place of the exclusive system which was to be abolished.— ( Hear, hear.) If the proposed Bill were passed lie should entertain great apprehension for those who would live in the towns under such a system. In the proportion that the Corporations had misconducted themselves—in the proportion that the Protestant party, as was alleged, had abused the powers in their hands, in his opinion it was the duty of a wise Legislature to be careful that they did not throw power im mediately into the hands of a powerful opposing party, for the purpose of avenging the past.—( Opposition cheers.) The Marquis ofC!, ANRICA RD E begged to ask what was the nature of the tyrannical power of which the Noble Duke had spoken ? The town councils were to be elected by the people, and having been so elected, they were to have the right of levying certain rates upon the people. The system then was one in which the people were to have a control' over the, management of the funds raised amongst themselves for their own benefit, and that was described by the Noble Duke as a tyrannical power.—( Cheers.) If there was the least, force in the argument of the Noble Duke then the House of Commons was a tyrannical institution, and all elective Govern ments were tyrannical powers.—( Cheers.) When the people were misgoverned by a small majority the Noble Lords oppo site did not charge that with being a tyrannical system, but when it was proposed to improve the condition of the people it was said no, they were not fit to be entrusted with more power. After a few observations by Lord ELLENBOIIOUGU, Lord HOLLAND was surprised at the sentiments which he had heard from Noble Lords on the opposite benches. Were they to be told It England, with its representative Government, where the people had the power to tax them selves, that to grant such a power was to establish a tyranny ? —(Cheers.) And to tax themselves for what ? For their own advantage and their own concerns. He repeated, he was astonished at the speech be had heard. He thought he had been living under a free representative popular Government ; one in which the people had a large share in the transaction of their own business—a Government includino. three great kingdoms, England, Scotland, and Ireland. ° Every one of the speeches which he had heard to-night from the Noble Lords opposite, had for their object to show that one great third of this empire was unfit, was incapable, of being go verned by a popular, free, and elective Constitution. It had been said also, that the Bill would have the effect of substi tuting one exclusive system for another. An extraordinary signification might be given to the word " exclusive." He taught it meant that which kept out a great body, and ad mitted only a part ; but, according to the interpretation of certain Noble Lords, it appeared that the principle which admitted the whole was exclusive.—( A laugh, and cheers.) If one-eighth was kept out, and seven-eighths were admitted, that was termed exclusion.—(" Hear, hear," from the Duke of Wellington.) " Hear," said the Noble Duke. What was his meaning? Did he think that the whole notion of free Government was founded on false principles ?—( Hear, hear.) The manner in which the Noble Duke cheered, and his whole course of argument, proved to him, beyond a doubt, that such were the opinions entertained by the Noble Duke. He thought that for the majority to have power, particularly ifAhey con scientiously differed in religious sentiment from the minority, that was exclusion. What was that but being opposed to the principle of free government. If there happened to be a ma jority one way, was public opinion to prevail, or was it not?— (Hear, hear.) Yet if it did, the Noble Duke said it was ex clusion. Public opinion might be wrong, it might be tyranni cal—he did not deny that a majority might be tyrannical; but for the majority to have the power was the principle of a . !ree Constitution—a free Constitution could not exist without it. He denied, however, that the Bill did give that exclusive power ; it made no distinction between Protestant or Catholic, Orangeinan or Repealer—it gave to the people of Ireland that which was their own. It was now proposed not to ablish all . the Corporations, and it was thought, under the circum stances, it would be most wise to support the amendment now before their Lordships. He preferred the Bill as it originally stood, but nevertheless he must admit, that in point of judg ment, ss isdom, and justice, there was a material difference be tween the amendment and the motion, which otherwise stood for the consideration of the House. By voting for the motion of his Noble Friend, their Lordships would possibly give to two or three towns in Ireland a more democratical form of Go vernment than they thought advantageous, but that was the full extent of the error which they would commit ; by adopt irig the other motion, and saying to the people of Ireland, " You are unfit for popular elections," what a strange and pregnant principle would they not act upon ! Would they ad dress Ireland in such language as this—" You are unfit to be trusted—we not only wilt not give you that which we have given to Scotland and England—not only do we think that you are not ripe to enjoy the frnits of free Government, and that England and Scotland were—not only do we think that, but we do not see any prospect of your ever becoming so. Hear, bear, hear.) We will not give you a chance. Wo say that you shall not go into the water, because you cannot swim ; and we wish to confine you • on the dry strand eternally, in order to prevent you from trying to swim." The influence of the priests was dreaded ; but could it be 'Sup posed that to raise men in a humble station to offices of some little distinction would have the effect of materially adding to the influence of the priests ?—( Hear, hear.) So, again, with regard to the agitators, he thought he could prove that no-_ thing was so strong-sighted as to fancy that by shutting out the " agitators," they destroyed their influence. The real method of rendering powerless those who were carrying on that species of legitimate warfare against them would be by adopting the principles of this Bill ; to reject it, would be to show a disproportionate degree of suspicion and distrust of the Irish people, arid not to extinguish that evil of which they pretend e d to b e i n such a state of serious apprchen sion.—( Cheers.) • The Duke of WELLINGTON admitted that he had been somewhat out of order, perhaps, in cheering the Noble Lord as he had d one , an d therefore might have dei;erved the Noble Lord's rebuke; but he believed it was by no means unusual for Noble Lords to cheer particular observations under such circumstances. He hoped the Noble Lord well(' himself not f esset. the Focep, - ; which lie laid down.. • died the Bill tyrannical, because it gave , scdption of persons ; because it gave -to the eLeted by that description of -persons the, pee, property belonging to another description of persons, ticularly referred to in another Act of Parliament. L ird II OL LAND assured the Noble Duke that he not mean to complain of his interruption ; and still less did intend to rebake him for what was a very natural expression of his opinions. Lord LYNDHURST said the Noble Marquis had advanced against him three charges, which • were - equally unreasonable and untenable. In the first place, he would ask the Noble Marquis and the House whether it was not the invariable cus tom to postpone the title as well as the preamble of a Bill to the last, until the nature of the Bill itself was clearly known and established ? As the Noble Marquis had mentioned the point, however, he would inform him that if the amendment; he (Lord Lyndhurst) should have the honour to propose should be agreed to, as he trusted they Would be, he should submit to the opinion of the Committee a title for the Bill cor responding to those amendments, which title, he hoped, would be adopted. Again, the Noble Marquis had appeared to con ceive that he had given an exaggerated statement of the de gree of agitation which prevailed in Ireland, but on this point he had stated no facts in which he was not amply borne out by Noble Lords and others hest acquainted with that country, and by the report of the Intimidation Committee. The Noble Marquis had, moreover, charged Noble Lords on his (Lord L.'s) side of the House with a desire to strip the Corpora tions of Ireland of their property. This was a charge which came well from the parties whose own measure put a cop plete extinguisher upon all the Corporations and cAn. pletely stripped therb of their property.—(Opposition cheers.) It was admitted on the other side, that such was the intent and object of the original Bill. The only question was, what might be the best substitute for the present Corporations ? Noble Lords opposite wanted to reconstruct corporate bodies throughout Ireland, whose constitution would produce greatly aggravated mishicfs. He (Lord Lyndhurst) on the other hand, wished to substitdte a plan of town government, which, While it put an end to all the evils of the present corporate system in Ireland, was amply sufficient to serve every good purpose. —( Hear, hear.) This was the point in issue between them. -There was in Ireland a minority of one quarter of the population of English descent, speaking for the most part the English language, of English customs and habits, and professing the Protestant religton. This minority of one quarter of the population of Ireland was a party standing by ne ! cessity on the defensive.—( Hear, hear.) On the other hand, there was a vast. majority of the population, of alien descent, as far as the English were concerned, speaking a different language, of totally different customs and habits, 'professing a different religious faith, and who regarded us as - invaders and oppressors, whom they would readily expel as soon as possible. This was the state of things in Ireland, and it was a state of things which rendered it the imperative duty of the House to take care that the weaker party should not be made the victims of that party which it was the object of the Noble Lord's - original sill to place in power.—( Opposition cheers.) The Coercion Bill of Noble Lords opposite, the Con stnbulary Bill, which were so necessary for the prevention of the tumults and disorders and atrocious crimes which were so prevalent in Ireland, clearly exhibited how different was the state of things in that country and in this.---( Hear, hear. ) The whole result of such a Bill as that brought from the other House would be merely the substitution all over Ireland pf o ftadical corporations where there were now Tory corporations—of Roman. Catholic corporations where there were now Protestant corporations; and whether this was a result to be desired he would leave it to the House to judge.—(Opposition cheers.) When the Act of Emancipation was sought, the Legislature was told that nothing further would be required to insure the Inappi ness and the tranquillity of Ireland. Yet what was the ease ? Since that time the Church there had been cut down, and a further attempt had been made to rob the Establishment, and. to apply its property to the " moral and religious instruc tion" of the Roman Catholics.—( Hear, hear.) In addition to this, the present Government had put down bodies of men who were associated defensively for the protection of Pro testant life and property—he alluded, of course, to the Orange Society.—(Loud Opposition cheers.) Now they were put ting down Protestant Corporations, and in place of theta they wanted to erect a host of Roman Catholic bodies. The next step, he presumed, would be to establish the Catholic religion as the religion of Ireland, and the Protestant religion would be considered that of a mere sect.—(CheerS from the Opposition.) It was said that the same principle which put a final end to Corporations, and the eternal elec tions attendant upon them, might equally be applied to Parliamentary representation; and that if Corporations wee discontinued the tenure of the House of Commons was in danger; but, as had been accurately remarked, there was n analogy between the cases. The House well knew that th elections in Ireland were all under the controul and gpidanc of the priests ! that their mandates were irresistible, and the. no man dare disobey their orders as to the disposal of his vote except at the peril of property—nay, of his life.—( Opposition cheers.) By acceding to the Bill which came from the other House, their Lordships would be establishing a host of clubs of agitation, tumult, and sedition throughout Ireland, and the result would be appalling. —( Loud cheers from the Opposition. ) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said a few words in expla nation. Lord LYNDHUP‘ST having replied, The Committee divided upiin the Duke of Richmond's amendment. Contents Non-contents Alajority against his Grace's amendment The clause as amended, was then agreed to. Clauses up to 37 was then agreed to. The House resumed, and immediately adjourned at a quit ter to ten. IMPORTANT TO BANKERS. A Meeting of -the. Commissioners under the Fiat in Brereton's Bankruptcy, took place on the 22d ult. at Fakenham, Norfolk, when the Bankrupt passed his final examination without opposition, and under a great deal of kind feeling and sympathy from his Creditors. The debts amountto about 36,000/., exclusive of that claimed by the Norwich Joint Stock Bank, which amounts to 44,986/. The assets are about 13,0001., and the deficiency was in part accounted for by losses by estates, 10,422/. ; losses by foreign corn and seeds, 22,1941. ; interest paid to bankers, and on mortgages, 30,9351. ; and bad debts, 9,750/. An article has been inserted in the " Norwich Mercury," and other papers, questioning the correctness of a statement, headed as above, which appeared in the papers about a fortnight ago ; but we hare authority to state, that the debt is founded upon cheques, dated " Norwich," but drawn and issued at Fakenham or Holt, and paid there by Mr. Walter, the Agent to the Bank, in whose presence they were drawn, many of them being Post-dated. That cheques thus drawn are contrary to the Stamp Act is per fectly clear ; for it enacts, " That, if any Banker shill pay, or muse or permit to he paid, any bill, draft, or order, drawn upon him, knowing the same to be post-dated, or knowing that the place where it was issued is not truly specified therein, (unless duly stamped) the Banker shall not be allowed the money so paid, or any part thereof, in Recount against the drawer, or his assignees, or creditors, in case of bankruptcy or insolvency." If, therefore, the Bankers are bound to account foe all monies of the Bankrupt received by them, and they cannot set off monies paid upon cheques. of this description, it is clear the case is one of great importance' to Bankers, as it would necessarily leave them large debtors to the Bankrupt's estate. In the year 1815, a similar case occurred in the same county. The same objection was raised to a debt claimed- by the late Mr. Bignold, of Norwich, on the estate of AM John Haycock, of Wells, against whose effects Mr. Bignold had issued extents in aid. That objection was sustained,. and Mr. Bignold never received one shilling of his debt. Some of the most eminent lawyers in the kingdom were consulted on that occasion (amongst whom were the late Lord Tenterden, and Mr. Justice Holroyd, then at the Bar), all of whom were of opinion, that cheques which did not truly specify the place where they were issued, were illegal, anti that payments made upon them were wholly void, and could not be allowed in account between the drawer and the Banker; white, in the time of Lord Kenyon, the whole Court of King's Bench held the invalidity of such cheques to be too clear for argument. THE LIFE, EXILE, AND CONVERSATIONS OF NAPOLEON.-This cheap reprint of Las Cases' interesting Memoirs of Napoleon is now brought to a close by thct publi cation of the twentieth shilling part. This history affords, altogether, a striking picture of one of the most extraordinary men that ever lived. The work is one of great political phi losophy ; but, while it treats of matters of the deepest import-- ance, involving wars and " rumours of wars"--and the rise and full of states, it is relieved by a profusion of anecdotes, which show human nature in its daebille, generally the best dress of humanity. This publication oilers the additional attraction of numerous engravings, illustrative of the characters and events of . which the author speaks. We observe that the work is re issuing In four monthly volumes, at five shillings each, bound, the first of which has just appeared. A beautiful piece of mosaic pavement has reeently been discovered at Lillehonne, near Havre, - so close to tine a " surface, that the ploughshare went several times across it, but did no damage. It is about eight feet square, composed of small regular cubes, the sides of which do not exceed four lines. It is laid in a bed of lime mixed with flint, hounded very fine, and founded upon a base of broad tiles. The whole is about a foot in thickness. The mosaic is composed of three different materials ; one, white, formed of plaster ; the other, of a red tile, much harder; and the third, of a very dark brown substance, the nature of which has not been ascertained. These are formed into roses and and other elegant designs. This species of pavement is common at Herculaneum and, Pompeii. It evidently formed part of all ancient builditr e e, SO:110 traces of walls having vet to be found. M it. BULWER'S << DEVEREUk. " -The re-pul i lica. tion of this novel in a cheap single volutne, in Colburn's ae.mirable series of the " Modern Novelists," has already draw,n to it the attention of that large class a readers who have rot great faci lities for perusing works on their first expensive p u bli cat i on , and there is, perhaps, no one of Mr. Bu,wer's productions better entitled to *their favor, or which will afford them more instruction and amusement. " .Devereux" is written in the form of an autobiography, and exhibits a life of the most stirring adventure and constant excitement. We have frequantly ex and buoyancy . of " Pelham" —the pathos of the beveroux" pos sesses t h e more sterling characteristics of historical truth,' and vigorou s d e li n e at i on o C t?l n le , i l so the ,r ne r_but chsfaeter. It is truly another classic in its way. CHEAP RELIGION.-The Lacedeemonians bud a law among them that every one should serve the gods . aiith as little expense as he could, in which they differed from a li the other Greeks, and Lvcurgus being asked for what .reason he made this institution to unlike the rest of Greece:, an swered, " Lost the service of the gods should at any !Arne be intermitted ;" for he found if religion shoold be as ex -pensive there as is oth er pi rts o f Greece, p it might sometime or other happen that the divine worship, out of the covetotv :ness of some, and the poverty of others, would be maglected.,