The Sun. — London, England, 1836-02-13 00:00:00

P' 1 1r1 Which the latter, was in many cases a compromise, in of el . h the interests of the parties prevailed, and the interests ins t c u9 public were very rarely considered. The proceed %ag; before that tribunal were very expensive—enormously le to every day they were increasing. —( Hear.) It was t hepublic to p ut an en d to t h ose expens i ve procee di ngs . ar ( .. e Hear, hear, hear.) N o l ater t h an t h at morn i ng cer t a i n ' s interested in the progress of a Railroad Bill had been with himaas , and o ne of them told him he had to pay before he t called vas pe Ca rn.itted to t a k e a s i ng l e step, t h e sum o f 500 / . f or w h at " a list of the assents and dissents." While the b l e i 'liad i n f ormed him that for the same thing he expected to It called or, for th ree t i mes as muc h i n as many d ays h ence. 4 ; 6 2' now the practice to obtain the consent not alone of pro- L ut Trs but of lodgers on any estate to be affected by the line, t h r n s trelny cases that of the former was dispensed with, while t l . 0 . 1 the latter who had no real interest in the estate served he lsell a list in approbation. This had a delusive effect on peas _Public, as well as a destructive effect, for it gave an ap av`aance of feasibility to projects which were by no means of a se 1 . ntable nature, and substituted the names of persons pos thsoB2ng not particle of valuable interest in a property for es ,be of the actual bona fi de owners of it. All this was cal nsul,aeted to deceive and injure the community at large, as well venalstroa the J e property and prospects of individuals. The at ven of House of Commons had during the last and se tietita:ttgercoef.dina- sessions been very liberally devoted to the fa suCh speculative enterprises, and he predicted that same very decided step, such as now proposed, were had hi to controul and regulate the very tolerant spirit which an hitherto guided their fegislation, the result would be that Ts House would become - not a House of Parliament, but a itt ' .. ° t l , se of Railroads--( Hear, hear, hear)—and every Gentle en° a spare time would be exclusively occupied in attending nunittees to promote their extension over the empire.— (Heat, h ear.) It was under these circumstances, and with this t otla ictio n of his duty to the unprotected public, and to the Le gislature_ in whi c h h e h a d t h e h onour to h o ld a sea t, th at h e '" P r oposed the f orma ti on o f th e S e lect Committee, with the powers and d ut i es spec i f i ed i n hi s mot i on. e o h W. CRA WFORD said some of the schemes alluded ad f a ll en under his observation, and he could speak from t pesience o f t h e ev i ls and i nconven i ences lik e l y to ar i se f rom e mania for railroad speculations which now possessed the cosi - dry. H e concurred with the Hon. Mover that it was ab ckisisillelY requisit e t o a pply some legislative check to these pro sarne's, which threatened to sacrifice such an amount of proaeate vie in the reckless rivalry of public companies, espe tQ'Ty in thenity of London. The county . of Surrey seemed ent e ici e especially marked out as a scene of visitation for the exe ssa n of such speculative projects, and had actually been and . partitioned amongst three principal engineers, in flan distinct shares, for their own profit, and for the do ts-i1k:4.0,f the public. There . were now no less than three niatkos in preparation to Brighton ; and could any sensible to exl:set that th e y c ou ld all succeed, even if the projec r 1.8 i atens t ed to work them? One was called Stephenson's C o ' condueted along the vale of Wickham and Wimbledon oa"'s NI cm, extending ,circuitously through the most bea . I Part of th e country, and along the banks of the rivers tl t t l d streams, on the plea of the necessity of preserving the le s v els. A second ran in another direction through thirdcualk hills, - cutting up that part of the country ; a (1,. railroad was already half made, running by Brighton s 'e south to Dover. The originators of these clashing att°leets cared nothing for the inevitable failure that would - n eet ue to one or more in their practical working, and the t . c f e e l ti lae tition that would ensue if their plans were ever Ca saLluto effect. Armed with the deposits of the first sub karets,.to the amount of 15,000/. or 30,000/., the solicitors pe ad . u gmeers recklessly pursued their separate course of ex- Pleas driving lines through the country wherever they is t e „ as e e d, heedless of the injury to private prop . erty, or the ra a - I ,L e rence with public comfort and convenience, which e ta ; r eissue in the accomplishment of their schemes. With th e - a ","lnds at their command, and such powers to expend es,: u ncontrolled for the furtherance of their plans, how iscih".leetionable it was not to be wondered at if private sie'vmals were deterred from making any attempt at oppo ion to a a and, in fact, unless - the Legislature turned its attention the adoption of some effective measures for their controul, attempt would be altogether hopeless, and the injury of c a r ; a t,e property might be expected to continue in a pro- Is s - Pte ratio.—( Hear.) On the Southampton line, the esv 'a were recently, stopped below Basingstoke, from a dis le: e e l? l ately made of the difficulty of preserving the requisite he the line first adopted. With reference to this ton', 4o could have wished that his Hon. Friend's mo te "ad embraced all railroads within ten miles, instead of e e sa e e n, ofthe metropolis, as this would let in the Southampton ' though, a s the motion stood limited at present, it was haveessarily excluded. However, as far as it went, it would A l a , from beneficial effect of preventing much valuable pro- Ala,. 'tom the lamentable effects of an extravagant mania th s -- ".would, doubtless, involve and ruin multitudes, while t ta - it e nginal plotters would, most probably, escape with the l os , a of their successful imposition on the unwary and . credu sth The machinery was well known to the initiated . by nt , ! b railway shares were worked up to a nominal premium , ot zwela e „ per cent. before the slightest rational prospect of a and Presented itself for calculation to found any data on . ; ei ti - a l . t was also well known to men of . observation that the ori shart°rs of these bubbles never continue can n o hold their original be seized on, sell th e eB, but as soon as a sufficient profit rn to the dupes whom they leave to suffer c . by the ultimate "%ti n gof the bubble. .No of experience would take the Petit s of shares quoted the papers as any proof of the pros as 4 1 1 or soundness of a company started und . er such auspices - ta t 'ae which marked the origin of these railway companies ; p citl i a';' e contrary, the more he heard of this unsubstantial prt;T -rI!o - tithe more he felt the necessity of protecting the public ' 4l dptious and fallacious hopes held out to them by Inter ested individuals. M r. R. COLBORNE th oug ht it was th e d u ty of the House Principl e be exceedingly cautious in the adoption of any restrictive 14 inciple of legislation which might have the effect of interfering with the many obvious admitted and indisputable benefits which r ailways were calculated to ensure, looking to them either to the extension of internal commerce or as a means of facilitating Intercourse, which did not hitherto exist, and thus diffusing im provements and the spirit of industry and enterprise. He was Certain that they were beneficial in one very desirable point of view, as affording a means of employment to the labouring classes, and a happy stimulus to the improvement of their con dition. Many of the projected undertakings were, he was sorry to say, speculations of a very questionable character, and he 'unlisted whether they would ever advance a step in the lines they had adopt e d an d set f ort h i n the i r prospect i ve publica sns• Ile th oug h t t h e b est way to counteract t hi s spec i es o f Peculatio n was to enact a clause which should render it tvre.Perative on the original promoters of a railway scheme to as e Utin their shares and prosecute the work. If shares were "'iv t ransferable by law persons would not undertake such w o o.. . ate - without the intention of carrying them on, and much e,k-jobbing mischief would thereby be prevented. Were a ", e " a law in existence we should not see such an enormous, lens,-Q and absurd expenditure of money as we now witnessed Aa a ,es of railroads running side by side, cutting up and clis sia°l;ng the country, and evidently constructed without the ef sLest intention on the part of the original undertakers to utilit"ulPlete them, or if completed eventually with any hope of Yto the public. He would, however, be quite content . to k i r the free employment of capital in this department compelledofm conlY, if the original promoters of each were to Sirthe R. PEEL said he could not sec the advantage which N it saPporters of the resolution expected to derive from it, t o Pared with the previous system, which it was now sought li n 3u Persede. If it were a necessary consequence that all .airs of railroads struck out were to go on, and that all Bills antquced were to be carried through that House, it would r e , d° uht occasion very dangerous results ; but it should be serellected that each Bill presented to Parliament must be ar a t i lt , i ,. u la , !d and substantiated in detail before a Committee, ri le ,'" approved, subjected to the further censorship of Parlia ea t, ere the evil consequences could result to the country all, Whi ch so much stress had been laid, but which, after tr Zany rested with the whole House to permit or restrain. lae n Vorrnation of a Select Committee were requisite and vo 8 - : e 'al for the district situate within seven miles of London, Pr o j ec t the property it contained from the ruin which railway Aliteeetors were expected to inflict, he saw no reason why esetltichester, Birmingham, Liverpool, and all the other threat s!, „ ai t lan'os and districts containing similarly valuable property ta °- '" not be granted an equal measure of select Parliamen andProtection.—( Hear.) If a Select Committee were good nha necessary for one case it might be expected to be good 11 4 , ne cessary for all ; but this equally legitimate conclusion roan not urged in supporting the motion. The Hon. Gentle and , t ."'fined his attention to the vicinity of the metropolis , p ' stet aPPeared expects shortly to see a railroad drive from take square to the House of Commons ! But he does not m etro consideration a condition attaching to property in the P°lis, which vi ill effectually protect it against any dis til, a nce that i s not lik e l y to h ave a p ro fi ta bl e termination— tntureat valu e o f t h e h ouses an d l an d, o f w hi c h the speculators T ito Purchase possession ere they can commence operations. Ril in evitable e xp ense o f suc h p roce edings in the metropolis ki nd i e its best security against uncalled for intrusions of the wits aPpraheaded, and Gentlemen might rest assured that there r aii . ci a wide an d natura l distinction between the origination of a amr.ad project in or through any district of the metropolis th e ele completion. He thought that the plan of entrusting to tailr et Co mm i ttee t h e c h o i ce o f one out of the lines of l eeti` °ld would lead to no good purpose, for the individuals se- N en e : could have no more i n t u itive knowledge of " the desire deea of a rail- roa d " th an th e h ou se at large, with whom the s ion Would li e i n th e p res ent state of the case, after the l av e s intnit tee had enlightened them on all the needful partieu s t ,° enable th em to f orm a proper j u d gm e n t. He could not ee issue in dvantage, where a great national undertaking was at ey e ,' ,limiting its consideration to a few individuals, how ssetected, who are expected to decide " whether the best et : had been selected, having regard to the directness of the alicajnunication, the probable expenditure, the comfort and ee rj.of the public, the effect on priarste property and parti f'ss i nterests." There was really little to fear in those cases, /arilo railroad project could come into operation till the ma raj of Parliament had declared that its principles and ar kKotetrne-ots appeared to them satisfactory, and its investments ci p t . He held it to be a recognized Parliamentary prin ii,ae,, in these cases, that the probable profits of an undeitak ,4e should be shown to be sufficient to maintain it in a state i a ,P,e,rrnanent action and utility—(Hear) —and he Weight that pi r e Tossis were perfectly justified in exp ec ti ng an d d ema nding pro " a warranty from Parliament before th e y t rans f e rred their P a p; to any suc h uses.—(Heay.) And why should not i ts 'lament require it from those who came fete and to obtain tieaauthority to sanction their appropriatioo of this peoposS a " e , . r ) With respect to the consent of proprietors, which was eel-dilute in such cases, he thought the House would not fid e °l ug its duty if it did not exact the produe4on of bona Ito, article subscribed by real proprietors or tenants. It wes tu,a` en ough to s ee a d ocument s i g ned by 1,000 tenant s if it 'n out that 999 of these were weekly tenants or tenantg •c . i~ will.—( Hear, hear.) He felt that Parliament ought in all such cases to ascertain the validity and condition of proprietor ships, ere it admitted the effect of such consent.—( Hear, hear.) With respoct to the individual projects, he was sorry to see that some presented the obvious characters of futile specula tions, but he would be equally sorry to see powers delegated to a limited •and select Committee to decide on subjects of skill, science, and enterprise, where so much was at stake, and thereby prejudge the question• He would rather see the matter left to the good sense and comprehensive intelligence of the entire House. Mr. PE ASE said that it was his lot to live in a county where railroads were more numerous and their effects better known and appreciated than in any other, and where, as the result of all this experience, as soon as a project for a new line of railroad appeared, it was almost universally adopted and approved of. The idea formerly prevalent there, as well as here, that railroads cut up and disfigured the country, had entirely given way, for it was now found that all the great cuttings and sinkings might, by a little care and expense in ornamental plantings of the slopes and edges, be rendered subjects of advantage in the points of scenery of a district, in stead of the reverse. He was aware from his own experience as a landowner, that the ground through which a railroad passes increases instead of deteriorates in value, notwithstand ing the particular portions of which he spoke were intersected by cuttings of great depth ; in spite of which some of it sold recently brought a higher price than it did before, or than any land at a distance from the railway would bring, though adjacent to turnpike roads. All building materials and mine rals lying in lands adjacent to a railroad were materially in creased in value, and in cases where it became necessary to determine the value of such land by a Jury, double the value was frequently given, compared with what would have been awarded by the same Jury, or determined by private bargain, before the establishment of the railroad. The turnpike roads in the neighbourhood had become perceptibly better, and had reduced their tolls fifty per cent., from the absence of heavy and injurious carriages, which are now transferred to the rail way. With the experience of ten or twelve years, the feeling of the country had considerably increased in favour of rail roads. Within the last three sessions especially, the question had undergone a searching scrutiny, and been fully canvassed by engineers and the public. He had attended very closely to the subject himself, and while he had been more thoroughly convinced of the utility which might be derived from the adop tion of judicious plans, he must confess he was disgusted by several which had been presented to the public, which obviously contained the elements of failure, disappointment, and ruin. He trusted, however, that the House would discriminate be tween the plans submitted to it, and not suffer rival projects to destroy one another, and to absorb the property of son fiding individuals whom they would be unable to repay. He thought that some speculations of this species deserved to fail ; but he did not like to see a Select Committee, composed of individuals who were, perhaps, by no means competent to enter fully into the merits of a plan, erected, as it were, into a tri bunal of opinion, whose fiat would, notwithstanding, go far to prejudice the decision of the last tribunal—the House. A chief objection to the introduction of the metropolitan lines was, that they would take the trade of the great interests already in pos session of it. He would suggest, as a remedy for this, that instead of having once focus in the north, or south, or east, or west, there should be a distribution of stations and advantages— one in each of these four points of the City—which would go far to remedy the inconvenience apprehended. He must oppose the motion before the House, as he preferred the existing mode of proceeding, which left so much more to the discretion of the House at large, with an opportunity of obtaining all the infor mation a Committee could elicit, to enable it to form a just conclusion ; and if a Committee agreed in approbation of a plan submitted to it, a prima facie is thereby established for the House, that it is a good one. Mr. G OULBURN said he must concur with the Hon. Member for Southwark in his view of the advantages of a Select Committee. The approbation of the Committee which trusted the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would not press his motion. Mr. HUME would wish to be informed whether there was any objection to the formation of a Board ? It would in his opinion be preferable to a Committee, which it might not be possible for Members to attend regularly. That very day, he was appointed to no less than nine County Committees? How was it possible that he could attend them all ? Why not draft the whole House into Committees, consisting of eleven each ?—(Hear, hear.) He could not admit the principle usually acted upon, that the Members of the county or the bo rough supposed to be the most interested in any inquiry, were the fittest to be Members of the Committee. Quite the con trary—they were most likely to be influenced by b:nal 'or Per sonal considerations. Mr. D. W. HARVEY said he always observed that when the House had been engaged upon any stirring subject like the Orange question it was difficult to draw their attention, to one of a more private nature. He did not propose that there should be only one entrance by railroad into London. What he said was that there should be only one locality within the metropolis for each line, from east, west, north, and south. It was said that the same course of inquiry should be extended to all large towns as he had proposed for the metropolis. This did not at all follow. In all other large towns the whole of the circumstances were fully known beforehand, and all the reasons for and against any particular course were discussed and ascertained before the project was commenced. but 'the speculators in London had, perhaps, not the least connection with those towns with which the line of road communicated. All he proposed was that a Committee should have before them the whole case. If the inquiry of Committees were not delayed, as was now the practice, by Counsel running from one Committee to another and making long speeches, or asking for adjournment because they were not prepared, or because junior Counsel made some mistakes, business would be done far more speedily, and better done too. If a Committee consisting of a small number had the whole project before them they could very readily determine whether a railroad was required in any par ticular line, or whether one line was preferable to another. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Warburton) suggested that no share holder should be a Member of the Committee. But were there no parties interested in such speculations but share holders? Were there no bankers, no proprietors of' iron mines ; were there no owners of great lumps of land, having a number of bad tottering houses upon them ? Great addition might suddenly be made to the value of such property by the project of a railroad. It was quite natural, it was the usual course, that strong objections should be -at first started against the project by the great landholders, but, some how or other, these objections soon disappeared. When once the great Lord or the extensive landowner was bought over by some means or other, the objections to the, line of road were heard of no more, and the minor parties opposed to the Bill were left to struggle for themselves. A Member of a Com mittee may not be a shareholder himself, but he might at the same time be deeply interested. He might have a son or a daughter, a nephew, a mother, or a grandmother, who held shares. What difference was there whether held by himself or his relations and friends ? The mode of crying up any project of this kind at present was, to point out a list of sub scribers and say, " Oh, here arc no less than ten M. P.'s. It is certain to be carried. It cannot fail." On the other side, perhaps, it is said, the Attorney- General is against it, he will canvass Brookes's. It cannot pass. If any Members of the Committee have an individual interest let it be known, let the man stand naked before the Committee.—(A laugh.) Some thing should be done to protect the public. The motion was then withdrawn. Mr. HUME postponed the motion of which he bad given notice, for certain returns relative to the assessed taxes, as the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department had a measure to brine. forward of more importance. His (Mr. Hume's) would do on another day.—( Hear, hear.) REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND MARRIAGES. .. the Hon. Member who spoke last referred to was not a case Lord J. RUSSELL then rose for the purpose of moving strictly applicable, for a single railroad case presented to an for leave to brin g in a Bill for the purpose of effecting a gene ordinary Committee could not exercise the comparative view ~al registration of all births, deaths, and marriages, and a Bill desired in the present case, and which if they did not enter on to amend the laws relating to the celebration of marriages. the task in a prejudiced manner, would be so beneficial to all It would be in the recollection of the House that when the concerned. His great anxiety was to avoid having the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir R. Peel) last year country ,parcelled out uselessly and injuriously by rival corn brought forward a measure for the purpose of regulating panics, who would inevitably entail ruin on the mass of those the taw with reference to the marriages of Dissenters, he who invested their property in these undertakings. If the (Lord John Russell) had on that occasion said that he House, or a Select Committee, were to exercise this corn had in the previous year (1834) declared it as his opi parative judgment, and choose one out of the three lines in nion that any measure which had for its object the regu question as alone worthy of adoption, it would confer a great lation of the law in question in such a mannr as to afford benefit on the public. If, on the contrary, each Bill were, as usual, allowed to go to the second or third reading before an relief . to the Dissenters,.. must be preceded by a Bill pro intentional comparison were made, he thought the House vidine a mode of civil registration, as opposed to the pre would stand a bad chance of making a correct choice at the sent 6 practice of registering ihrouel the medium of the moment.—( Hear. ) Church ; but that he .( Lord John Russell) had not then or since brought for Ward any plan on the subject with that object Mr C. P. THOMPSON agreed with the Hon. Baronet, in view, because the Government of that day considered that that no reason existed for appointing a Committee to consider any p r oposition which could then be made must, if carried into the comparative merits of railroads to other parts of the king- e ff ec t, entail upon the State the necessity for an expense the dom, and was unwilling to delegate any powers to a Committee extent of which would present an insurmountable barrier to to interfere with railroads in the vicinity of the metropolis the adoption of the plan. The obstacle, then, was not the which might eventually extend to all parts of the country. principle, which he had just referred to—it was not said that a He acknowledged that legislation on these matters was full of measure of the kind should not at some time or other be broup,ht difficulty, and that it would be most desirable the usual Corn- forward—but it was deferred until there should be a probability mittees should in their Reports bring forward sufficient grounds of its being put in practice in a less expensive manner than.the to enable the House to arrive at a proper judgment of the means then existing would have allowed.—( Hear.) His merits of each. He was aware that the opinions of Hon. ( Lord John Russell's) own-opinion certainly was, that, looking Members expressed on these Bills at a vote of the House were at the subject in a general and national point of view, it was frequently grounded on a personal canvass of others, instead most desirable that a civil registration should be established. of their own individual knowledge, and confessed that he him- —( Hear.) It was most important, as well for the purposes self had often. considerable difficulty when called on to vote of succession to property as for the purposes of the State, which occasionally on such questions, when he had no adequate op- frequently required a correct account of the state of the popu portunity of forming an opinion, and in consequence he fre- lation, that there should be a perfect register of all births, quently declined to vote. Would it be possible for a Corn- marriages, and deaths, in the kingdom. The present register mittee to do without assistance all that was proposed? There was decidedly deficient in its details. It had been shown to was a Commission now in town of persons interested in rail- be so before many Committees of that House; it gave a register roads, with the view of •making inquiry upon this subject. He not of births, which was the thing required, but of baptisms, saw no means of avoiding the difficulties that presented them- and in respect of marriages the register was filled with the selves except by the appointment of a Commission of engi - names of Dissenters, as well as those of members of the neers. He was friendly to the extension of railroads, and was Church, by the former being absolutely compelled to partake therefore anxious that no impediment sho;ild be thrown in in the ceremony of the communion, to which many of them on their way. There was, however, three or four recently sug- principle objected. These principle reasons, not to enter into gested so ridiculous, as to be unworthy of notice; some start- details, were sufficient with him ( Lord J. Russell) to bring ing from the same place, and in directions where no coach was him to the conclusion that the defects in the registration arose ever known to have run, Such projects may be beneficial to from that act being performed through the medium of the engineers, attorneys, and to the projectors themselves; but Ecclesiastical Establishment, instead of by means of the civil power. It was on this principle that the Bills which he was must ultimately turn out failures. He admitted that s omethin g ought to be done ; but did not approve of the plan proposed about to propose for the consideration of the House w ere by the Hon. Gentleman ( Mr, Harvey). grounded, and lie would therefore at once proceed to a state- Mr. YOUNG did not think the motion had been fairly ment of their proposed enactments, leaving that which affected dealt with. Railroads and turnpike roads had been placed in the marriages of Dissenters until after he had disposed of the invidious comparison. He understood the mover to say that others. With respect to the subject of the registration of births, he anticipated benefit from railroads; but not from such pro- marriages, and deaths, he would observe that essentially it had jects as could only injure the projectors as well as private pro- no immediate connection with the religious creed or creeds perty. There could be no worse tribunal than a Committee of the persons whom it affected, and that in a country like of that House as they were generally constituted. The utmost this, the people of which were divided as regards their r e ii. scope ought to be allowed to all private enterprise, so far as it gious creed, a register kept by the Church only must be far was consistent with law. He would admit, at the same time, from being complete. He need hardly refer to the case of the,, that it was their duty to inquire, when any new project of this B a ptists, who objected on principle to the practice of infant kind had been started, what was likely to be the amount of in- baptism, in illustration of this position. This being the case, jury or benefit. The practice was now to nominate from 70 to he certainly thought it absolutely necessary, if a correct ac -100 on Committees. Few attended, and sometimes Members count of the ages, and other particulars of necessary eireuMs voted who heard no part of the evidence. A Select Corn- stances relating to the subject, were required, and if, therefore, mittee was preferable. They would feel themselves bound to a complete register was required to be formed, that such re attend to the real merits of a Bill. ;inter should be perfectly independent and impartial, a s re _ Mr. O'CONNELL was glad, whatever might be the result gariled all churches and all sects. The only question, there. of the debate, that the question had been brought before the fore, with him was, as to the plan on which the desired object House. See and expeditious travelling, upon moderate was to ho carried into effect. The mode pursued during the terms, must be a great advantage, by opening an easy inter- Commonwealth, who% there was a civil register in each parish, i course between many parts of the country. There ought to was, that a registrar was elected in each p arish by the nhabi be some mode of checking speculations likely to prove in- tants, who was to serve for a year and a day ; but that plan was jurious ; but, generally speaking, the interest of the par- afterwards abandoned, and has not been since revived. Another ties would be found a sufficient check. He concurred plan was one proposed two years ago by Mr. W. Brougha m , in the suggestion of the Right Honourable Gentleman then Member for Southwark, the effect of which was, that the (M. P. Thomson), that it would be desirable to have a Go- surveyors of taxes should have the keeping of the registers. vernment surveyor. If the report of such an officer wag re- He (Lord John Russell), however , in endeavouring, by co rn _ quired to be on the table of the House before any Bill for a munication with the proper officers, and particularly with Mr, railroad was.brought in, it would tend greatly to put a stop Wood, in the Tax Office, had ascertained, that although th e to the mania, as it has been called. He hoped nothing would surveyors of taxes would be fully competent to undertake the be done that could interfere with increasing the facilities of task, yet that the collectors could by no means be so well re communication. He saw no reason why a Select Com- lied oa, and that it would, therefore, be necessary, for the mittee should he preferable to any other, No answer was purposes of the machinery of the proposed• plan, to employ yet given to the observations of the Right Hon. Member for a superior class of men, who would, of necessity, require Tamworth. higher remuneration, the whole being carried into effect at Mr. WARBURTON thought it desirable to have a ge- an expense so great as to render the plan ineligible. It neral survey of all railroads before Parliament gave consent had therefore been deemed unwise to make use of the sug to the third reading of any Bill. The further progress of all gestions which the last-mentioned proposition comprised ; but railroads ought to be stopped till there was a general map of within the last year or two a change had been effected in the them prepared, and the opinion of a Committee had upon it. system of the administration of the Poor Laws, which at last About the time when he first entered Parliament, when there seemed to open the way for the adoption of a plan of correct were so many ruinous projects started, lie moved for the ap- and systematic registration at a less expense than would have poiiatment of the Aringa Committee. Ile trusted that in fu- attended all the others proposed. The machinery of the now tore no Member would deem it right to vote in any Com- Poor Law Bill afforded the means of effecting the object so mittee appointed to inquire into a speculation in which he had much desired. Under the arrangement at present existing, an interest. there were about 228 unions in England and Wales, compri- Mr. BA RING WALL suggested that it would be de- sing 2,233,000 persons; and, when the whole country had sirable to have an engineer appointed under Mr. Drinkwatcr been brought under the operation of the system (and Assistant to report upon any railroad before it should obtain the sane- Commissioners had been appointed for that purpose, who were tion of Parliament. expected to effect the object by April, 1837), there would be Mr. H LIME said there were difficulties in every view of at least 803 unions throughout the kingdom, comprising the the case, but what he dreaded most was the suggestion of the whole of the population. • Here was a machinery which might Hon. Member who spoke last. If this suggestion were to be easily be made available for the purposes of the new Bill. In acted upon as regarded railroads, why not follow the same each union there was an officer called the relieving officer, rule in every other speculation ? The most effectual check whose functions applied to about 5,000 persons (the whole dis - --• would be so see that the money subscribed was really paid up. tract containing from 15,000 to 20,000), as well as an auditor, This would soon put an end to some railroads. H e saw no and a clerk to the Board of Guardians. Now the present pro objection to having t wo ra il roa d s ru nning to the same place, position was, that the Poor Law Commissioners should have if it should appear beneficial ; to Brighton, for instance. He the power of appointing either the relieving officer, or some heard no answer as yet to the observations of the Right Hon. other, as the registrar for a Gerictin nttillher of Ila Fishes, he Baronet ( Sir R. Peel.) He entertained no doubt that a b e ing under the authority of another officer (either an auditor Committee of eleVen or twelve would be the best, They or the clerk to the Board of Guardians), to be palled the su would attend more to th e su bj ec t, an d d ec ide properly, unicis perintOndill4 registr?r of the district,— ( Hear,) It was also perhaps in some cues where there might be a pressure from proposed that there should be at the teentrel-olece in London without. another superintending registrar, to have authority during Mr. W. W. W YNN was disposed to oniltriiir is the obser- the five years of the operation of the Poor Law Act, and to be v:tions that the best security which could be provided was the itrApr the direction of the Commissioners. It was further view of parties as to their own interests. There was besides proposed that et the ead of eyerY tifq inntlillq thp yeai;tpare in this the protection of the landowners w ith w hose property the the parishes should send to the office of tlie county or super line of road might interfere. Where there were conflicting intending registrar a certified copy of all the entries in the re lines of road to the same place ft oug h t , perhaps, t o he made gister during that period, where, also, the books filled would a subject of special inquiry. It would be advisable that tie depositnil, alid p r fter t vardq ft41 1 9 1 :4e4 to the f_leutrßl gfAne , h on cetorward no new line of road should meet with the co n- i n London, which would thus contain entries or the whole of eurreneo of Parliament until the whole Inlderwent inquiry be- the entries during each year. The next point was as to the fore a Committer. manner in which the registration should be effected. In this Mr. SCA R LETT thought it highly desirable, that 4 UP: r e P e4 the Bill now about. to be proposed would not be fonnd neral plan of all the railroads should be before the H ouse , to to tfiffirfriareri a ll y from that intrddubed by Mr. 'W. iirOughini. direct their judgment. Some more ex t ens i ve mac hi nery t h an It was proposed that in the case of a birth notice should be that etme p ee peged would be required, to assist in the inquiry. immediately, or within eight days of the birth, given by the It would be too great a borthea 0 tl< Committee to h ave o ccupier o f t h e h ouse in wh i ch i t m i g h t ta k e p l ace to t h e re three or four lines of roa d to inquire into ili the Sar;i6 time, 1,0404, Woe, je tii gr, if ; d 4i ,-, yipiii4 „ 4 il 0.1! Op c A ti i9 r of Lord J. RU SSE LLe hou g ht he could not a g ree t o the plan. mother, or on th e occup i er o f to house, for' the particulars of he ;744 rem!Y to acknowledge that an obligation was concerned t h e name of the child, and the other matters necessary, for the on the 11;;;se 6+.(1 1 4 P 0457 hv bringing it for war d. In cases- purposes of the reg i strat i on ; an d s hould any a lt er ation be where two lines of road w e're pleipesiea to 1 ;,4 c , i. „...ii.,. place, it subsequently made in the proposed name of the child. then that would be a very fit subject fo r the consideration oreete r ne 1 necertitieiteeot: the baptisni slroutd oe #rst optaineu; for wtilth a , mitto p , that they might be able to re p ort the various circum- j fee must be paid to thMinliter, h } nci ohe'bf iese l lbree eti the . 44c - e . a to pnble the House to form a corre c t k i e meet. He registrar. With respect to the registration of deaths, the mode --1 proposed for adoption was very similar, the difference being that the registrar, having received notice from the occupier of the house in which the death has taken place, must call in the next of kin, or on the occupier, for the necessary information as to the age, country, and occupation of the deceased, or whatever other particulars might be required. So much for the registration of births and deaths. That of marriages would snore properly be mentioned when he (Lord J. Russell) came to the introduction of the Bill on that subject. There could be no doubt of the extreme difficulty which would at first impede the practical operation of a measure so extensive in its details ar the present ; but lie (Lord John Russell) con ceived that if once established, the great benefits of it would be so soon found out by parents and ethers interested, that it would not be very long before all would, without opposition, come into the arrangement, and thus all fear of neglect or disobedience in future be put an end to. The next point was the expense attending the proposed arrangement, as well to the public individually as to the State. It was intended that no fee should be paid on the registration, but only where a certificate was required, and the payment of the registrars was proposed to be at the rate of 23. 6d. for each name, if the notice was given to the registrar within twenty days, and at the rate of one shilling per entry after that time.—( At least SO we understood the Noble Lord, who occasionally dropped his .voice in such a manner as to render the conclusion of his sen tences almost unintelligible.) The superintending registrar would receive about 2d. for each name in the registers with which he was concerned. The whole expense would (on a calcu lation that 812,000 names would be annually yielded) amount to about 40,0001. per annum for the registrars, and for the superintending registrars to 15,0001. or 18,000/. The ex penses of the central registration would not be considerable. The Noble Lord then proceeded to enter into a statement of the provisions of the other measure to which he had referred, for amending the laws relating to the celebration of marriages. He thought himself entitled to say of this law, as he had done of that for regulating the registration of births and deaths, that there was a very great confusion in our legislation be tween those matters required by the State for its own purposes for the well-governing of the country, and the right succes sion of property, and those which belonged to religion and to the conscience. For instance, it was most necessary that the State should have certain things declared previously to the performance of the marriage ceremony, in order to the avoid ance of clandestine marriages, and to its assurance that the parties were in a situation to be able to enter into the contract, and to make their position fully known. For this purpose it was most desirable that the register in wlich the names were contained should be common alike to all subjects of the empire, whatever their religious opinions. That was what the State required, as well fer the due succession of property as for the maintenance of order and morality; and to this point, therefore, the attention of the Legislature should be more particularly directed. By far the greater portion of the community (indeed, nearly the whole) were agreed upon the desirableness of there being a religious ceremony upon the celebration of marriage ; but they were very far indeed from being agreed upon the manner in which that ceremony should be performed. The great object of the State was, that the ceremony, be it what it might, should be binding on the con sciences of the parties.—( Hear, hear.) Let it be once as certained that the parties about to be married had complied with all the forms necessary for their observance prior to en tering into the engagement, and that the manner in which the ceremony was prepared for and performed was binding upon the consciences of those parties, and then all that the State required for its purposes would be accomplished. But the law at present went on a principle totally opposite to this. It was formerly the law of this country that, although it was usual for banns to he published, and the ceremony performed in church, yet that, if a marriage were performed through the interven tion of the civil authority per verba in presenti tcnipore, it was held good in Courts of Law and in the Ecclesiastical Courts. between the practice in the case of the Church of England and that of the Dissenters was, that while the Minister of the Church of England would himself enter in his own register the certificate of the marriage, a duplicate of which would be sent to the central office in London, in the case of the Dissen- ters the registrar would attend in person on the occasion of the marriage, and certify the fact of its having taken place. These, then, were the principles of the two Bills which he now proposed, with the leave of the House, to introduce. He thought that by establishing civil regulations of the descrip tion he had mentioned, besides all other advantages to be ob tained from them, they would produce this further advantage, an advan:age which could not be so perfectly obtained in any other way, that they would relieve the Protestant Dissenters from the grievances of which they complained by removing from off their consciences the scruples which they entertained in reference to tlicse matters. —( Hear.) By such measures as he now proposed they would also be following the recomrnen . _ dation contained in the King's Speech, in which they were re quired to ascertain whether or not they could devise means for relieving those classes of his Majesty's subjects from griev ances offensive to their consciences. He thought that for this purpose alone, without considering the great importance in a national point of view of civil registrations, it was worth their while to pass these two Bills, because these measures would establish, without offence to the Church, a complete relief to the Protestant 'Dissenters from that part of their grievances respecting which they were most scrupulous. He would now say a few words, and only a few, with respect to the griev ances, he meant the principal grievances, of which for the last three or four years past the Protestant Dissenters chiefly com plained. In the first place they complained of the want of a national registry, and in the next they rep-esented it as a great hardship that they should be without a marriage cere mony, or rather that the ceremony of marriage between Dis senters should not be allowed to be performed by their own officiating ministers. With respect to those two he had already addressed the House ; but there was a third grievance, in re ference to which he felt it necessary to make a single observa tion. Tho grievance to which he alluded was the disability under which the Dissenters laboured of attending the Univer sities of Oxford and Cambridge, and at the same time their in ability to obtain those distinctions, whether in the arts and sciences or in the learned professions, which were obtained by those who happened to be members of the Established Church. Now, with respect to the claims of the Dissenters to participate in all the advantages of such distinctions, he need hardly say that he was favourable--that he concurred in the principle which acknowledged their right; but although this was so, he felt that he would only be binding himself to a delusion, if he. were to hold out any thing like an immediate hope that such a measure would be carried - into effect by an act of the Legis lature. There was, however, an alternative, and with respect to that alternative—he adverted to the policy of having some University where those collegiate honours and distinctions might be obtained by Dissenters, honours and distinctions from which they ought not to be barred—(Hear, hear)—on account of their religious principles—all he need say was, that the subject had attracted the attention of his Right Hon, Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that he had devoted himself 1 tboriously to the formation and bringing to maturity a plan for a university for this body of persons, for the establishment of a national university, in which all Protes tant Dissenters might safely seek those hoasnra and di:tine • tions to which superior learning fairly eiltitl.A all men. He entertained the most sanguine hopo that his Right Hon. Friend's labours in this respect would not be in vain, and that before long a plan would be suggested which, though it might stop short of the particular advantages derived from the Uni versities of Oxford and Cambridge, would still be sufficient to satisfy the hopes and wishes of' the Protestant Dissenters. There were one or two other grievances, besides those which he had mentioned, to which ho felt it necessary to make some allusion. One related to the payment of church-rate, and the other to the power of admission to bury the membees of Dissenting congregations in the churchyards of the Church of England according to the peculiar religious ceremony of the per suasion to which the party belonged. He would not enter into any particulars on these subjects ; but this flinch he must venture to say—addressing himself to those Protestant Dis senters who were sending in their petitions to that House—. that he did think it a great object to gain, if they wished for re ligious peace throughout the country, that while they left the Church of England in the full establishment of all its rights— rights which undoubtedly it ought to possess—they should obtain full and fair equality with the members of the Church of Eng ' land in all civil concerns, and that such matters should not be any longer the occasion of either jar or quarrel between them. He must be allowed to say that ho had heard with some pain that a contest was intended to be carried on be tween the Dissenters and the members of the EStablished Church respecting cliwpil rates„ He admitted that it was most desirahle to have the question relative to church rates satisfactorily settled, and what he sought was to establish a system of law that would tend to place both parties in such a situation as would lead to a feeling of mutual good-will be tween the ministers of Dissenting congregations and the clergy of the Established Church, by allowing neither to possess that which might be considered either injurious er insulting to the other.—( Hear, hear, hear,) If that sort of feeling were once established, he then would be able to at the other question—that of the burial of Dissent: or , i n t h e churchyards of the Established Church; but sure he was that if the Government were to introduce a ine"..:nare of that kind now—if they were to give the Dissr:ittera the power of going into our churchyards, and t.Lere to perform their own burial service—they wotllki, 4 ) tar from producing harmony, only be widening Ole laroaoh, because • the Protestant clergyman wcitild Nei, and naturally enough, that they had invaded a province peculiarly his own by subjecting him to hear in his own churehyard services performed to which he not only conscien tiously but seriously objected. That subject, however, as well as other grievances, which should remain untAuched, might be made matter of compromise hereafter between the Clergy of the Established Church and the Dissenting Minis ters, and he thought that if harmony and good feeling were once established between them, that no Protestant Clergy man would object to allow the burial service to be performed in his churchyard by a Dissenting Minister in whom he could oonflde, with whose purity and decorum he was avell ac (minted, and who he knew would neither insult nor desecrate his own sacred duty. This was all he would say in reference to the remaining grievances, especially as church rates would form the subject, on another day, of a distinct motion, and a fresh debate, and therefore he should end at present by ex pressina a fervent hope that finally all those questions might be satisfactorily settled, and that peace should at len;;:n - be established among all religious parties ; on which subject, he was sorry to say, this nation was far behind others, which, in many respects, in regard to commerce, wealth, instruction, and knowledge, were vastly our inferiors.,...—(Hear, hear.) With these observations he should nip. conclude by moving for leave to bring in the Bills te,voielt he had alluded, for the registration of births, deeths and marriages, and for the cele bration of marriaaca.---(Qheerit) The quasttort Fayi . ng put, Mr. Q'CONNELL" observed, that as the Noble Lord had spoken only of Protestant Dissenters he feared that he had not included one class of his Majesty's subjects in his measures, namely, the Roman Catholics. He hoped, however, that the Noble Lord would extend to the Roman Catholic Clergy the same • liberty_ of celebrating marriages which h e i n t en d e d to give to the Protestant Dissenting Ministers. Lord J. RUSSELL said that, as respected England and Wales, the proadaiona of the Bill were intended to be extended togglall Patholies as well as to Dissenters,—( Hear.) 4ir ROBERT PEEL said—Sir, on this great and impor tant subject I shall postpone any lengthened observations until such time as I shall have had an opportunity of seeing the Bills which the Noble Lord proposes to introduce, and consi dering their details. I shall, however, make a few remarks Flerea latitude was afforded to those who differed from the doctrines of the Church of England, and he (Lord John Russell) had been informed by several Lutherans and others, that previous to I - 754 it had been customary for the Dissenters to perform their marriages among themselves, but that the law passed in that year, enacted that all marriages should be performed by a c l erg y ma n o f the Church of Egland, after banns published or license given. That law was, in his ( Lord John Russell's) opinion, an unnecessary violation of conscience —(Hear)—which compelled parties wishing to ce lebrate their own marriages in their own manner to enter a church with which they were not in communion, and to have the ceremony performed by a clergyman from whose doctrines they differed. The subject then nas one requiring a legisla tive remedy, one which should be at once simple and effectual. The Protestant Dissenters, in asking for relief from their sta ded grievances, when those applications were made during the Administration of Earl Grey, and of the Right lion. Gentle man opposite, expressed themselves willing to assent to one of two modes of settlement. They said,. " Either make it alto, gether a civil contract, at the same time allowing all persons attaching a religious feeling to it to celebrate it afterwards in their own way, in their churches or chapels ; or, on the other hand, acknowledge the religious nature of the obligation, and allow us to perform the ceremony in our own places of wor ship, leaving the members of the Church of England to do the same in their own churches." New although there certainly was great simplicity in the former of the two modes proposed, yet when he (Lord J. Russell) bore in mind the feelings of the great p or ti on o f the people, he could not but think that they would consider that the Legislature would not sufficiently notice the reli g ious nature of the obligation if they were n o t to notice the religious contract at all, but to make the civil con tract sole and sufficient, doing away with the necessity for the celebration of marriages in churches.—(Hear.) He thought that the members of the Church of England would complain of it as an unnecessary violation of their conscientious feelings, and as being an evidence of a, want of a due respect for religion, (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) There was one other mode, that proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and proposed by him in a manner which made every one anxious on the subject, and particularly the Members of that House who were Dissenters, acknowledge the liberality of his views, which, however, was not ultimately satisfactory to the great body of the Dissenters. It was, that the religious ceremony should be binding upon members of the Church of England' while the Dissenters performed their marriage; hefere Magistrate, and by the civil authority only, The question was certainly one of feeling on the part of the Dissenters, who said, e‘ You acknowledge the religious obligation as regards the Church of England, but you leave us without the means of adding that sanction, as if we had not an equal sense of the importance of the religious obligation.-.. ( Hear, hear.) You, on the very face of the enactment, cast a stigma, as it were, upon us, and establish an inequality,"_ ( Hear, hear.) There being such objections both to the first plan referred to, and to the last, there remained but one other, which took as its general principle that the marriages of the members of the Church of England be left as they are at pre sent, and that Dissenters be allowed to perform the reli gious ceremony in their own places of worship, and accord ing to whatever form they think most desirable. This was the principle adopted in the Bill he now stilmittpd to the consideration of the House,..e.i l jcr t r t lie r. . It wee proposed to substitute fee thP Pte4ent system of banns and lieeeee, that of an entry in a hook kept for the purpcsse by the registrars referred to in the statement of the other measure. The operation of the present system was, that while the higher and most of' the middling classes adopted the practice of procuring a license on the payment of a certain sum of money, the poorer classes only generally had recourse to the publication of banns, The consequence of this was that the original design of the framers of the plan, had become fry trawd. The provision in question was ia eper4tien hefore the Reformation. Then it was eicacjous, booause the parishes were small, the nnwther of inhabitants not great, and plaoes of worship sufficiently com.nodi ous t o rece i ve them ni the ; but the plan now failed in these essential rQspeets, for, in the first place, the'publication of hArm ninst be per fectly unknown to the Dissenters, who never frequented the places of worship in which those publications were made, 4 id in populous parishes, where not a twentieth part of the inhabitants could attend, a kind of huddled li;t of names was real by the clerk sometimes, immediately after some of the most sublime passages in the Bible, and at a time when they were calculated to distract the attention of the congre gation from their more serious duties. In place of all this oh , jectionable mode of proceeding, then, it waq now proposed that all persons about entering into the t il arriage contract, whether Churchmen or Dissenters, should enter in the notice book, kept by the registrar for the parish, a notice to that effect - twenty-one days before the time at which the ceremony is in tended to take place ; but that where a license has been ob tained, an entry eight days before such time should be suffi cient. It was true that one objection to the present system, the great distinction kept up by it between the rich and the poor in their marriages, would lint by wholly done away with ; but, at all events, the distinction would not be so marked as it was at the present time. It was not intended to do away with twenty-one p expired, oTrsi the power of special license at present exercised by the Arch bishop‘ce,bingttiaelitrneoedorlif.nt Canterbury. s n ot t tbt e heo r re b ort i k i ihi r e y ; ad . a o i ‘ n y v e o would give attended de r thetho on i o e l ce i r a t tv i hdfii having gy a fitness s t r e eolgi o trlie f syttrihgae: parties a certificate of the fact of the notice having been duly behalf of the parties to certify to their hieing in a situation to enter into the contract), which certificate on being taken, if the parties wore of' the Church of England, to a clergyman, would entitle them to have. the ceremony perforated by hint; and, in the case of the parties not being of the Qfpir t a t yf lung land, th en i t wou l d entitle there ee ha t e the ceremony per formed by noisier of their own persuasion in their own place of worship —such chapel havin ,, been licensed for the purpose on the certificate by twenty householders that they had at. tended worship there during twelve menthe, and that It was in every reipcct a 41 e t place filr the celebration of marriages. There was one other provision, however, important to be mentioned. Although the great majority of the Dissyntiqg Ministers were and would be persons of toewe respectability, and fit to be trusted ieiportant charge which this iii proposed to 'Confide' to them, yet the designation was in itself so vague, and it was so easy for individuals to adopt the name and perform the duties for a time, and thqi ei - ase to do so, that it was desirable to ihd oases or Dissenting the reeeence et some recognised authority, whose certificate of the due performance of the ceremony would have the necessary legal value. For this purpose it WP.9 prowu,d that the rcgistrar should always attev l d +t t the eelebrition of 2 7 11 end :oil - itself' Ater the names of the parties as in e been present on the occasion. These points having been disposed of, there yet remained to be provided fay tlte, efae of those persons, not however very rent‘ice . okis, whp marriage to be a civil ccntraei 004) aria 9.VP,Lioci oodi -104 cat: - atiyaiigi6tis'aVariolly. kr these persons it was pro posed to give a provis:on similar to that offered by the Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet, except that instead of their having to go before a Magistrate, they would b'- requize4 attend before ;I:llW,ptc.i (144 - ; istrar ttte dts'etict dtie m&liurrieirthe th. 6 " Co be' 'performed according to a certain form prescribed by the Bill, The only other difccrence ox the two main questions which the Legislature will have to consider; and, with respect to the first, I have only to say that it is one in which the Dissenters arc as much interested as the members of the Established Church, indeod the interest is common to all parties ; for the Dissenters must be as anxious to prevent clandestine marriages as they are to hare a perfect and availablo registry of births, marriages, and deaths. I NI T,We bond that the Dissenters have precisely the aamo IrJorest as the members of tltQ Church of England in seeing that proper provision is made to prevent the law from being evaded by any of those shameful frauds on persons of tender age which I am sorry to say our experience tells us are bott too 'frequently committed ; but, rich regard to that which relates to religious ceremony merely, all I need say is, that, so far as I have boon able to understand the Bill, I, as a inem- . . ber of the Church of England, make no objection whatever to it,—( Hoar, hear, hear.) So far as the members of the Church of England are concerned, no other obligation, to add validity to the contract, than the performance of religious ceremony is necessary ; and as the Noble Lord has superinduced no other conditions, the marriage of persons belonging to the Esta blished Church will be in no wise affected, Lord J. RUSSELL observed that there was a notice to be given which was equivalent to a publication of banns. Sir R. PE E1. 4 --.With this exception of notice previous to the Qvomany, the Noble Lord's Bill would not affect the religious contract. Although the Noble Lord proposes that a registry shall be kept, I trent he will leave parties who choose the discretion of using An ecclesiastical registry in addition to a civil one in pase they shall prefer it, that is, that the registry in the XAAriner which he proposes will not preclude those who wish Also to register in the Church. Lord J. RUSSELL—It is intended that duplicates of each registry shall be deposited in the general London registry, and there can be no objection to a registry being :Aso kept in the churollea for those who wish it. Sir ROBERT PEEL—I hope the Noble Lord will not overlook the important question relative to those emoluments which are derived from tho present registries, and provide for them it; this 44 he did in the former Bill which he introduced c.et this subject.—( Hear, hear.) This, however, is a minor topic. In the case of the marriages of Dissenters the Noble Lord proposes that such meninges shall be a religious cere mony wherever the parties attach importance to its being so. This, waa precisely what I proposed, but if the mode which the Noble Lord proposes is more satisfactory to the Dissenters than that which I proposed, undoubtedly I admit that they have 1 right to adopt it. i c,crtainly thought that in the measdro 4 brought fc.rward their religious scruples and feeliAts, were tufty attended to. I proposed that tht.. to t tarriag . e. contract should have a religious charaeter i . vhereyer it was wtAecl 1 but I at the same time 1.44 it a, civil contractin altl caws wher e th e Disserit t eiA tOght 4,ekkrc. that it 09,414 ue-t be religious. Th e Noble, I, r@ tlAs; l l lo XtieXci- net given an exact and complete reprCse.n . tatlor. a toy measure, although his description of it does not at all vary from the truth. I did arose that there should be civil evidence of thrl ,iikentraet,but I also, as the preamble of the ,ill\qi,i,pcoN., .4 tstied the Legislature to erw,etir,Ao f r y much as possible its being is tie it I . o ,iVerms ceremony, and stated the Bardnet read'the_p . reamb!7, c,,f th e reason vilAy. ''' Vie Rtg' ht I,en‘ 111,1.1; 'which set for:l4 OW, as there was tA d \iii . City in coMPljing with that mi4cth was re. quired Lay lair.v, to give validity to marrines, 4 was expedient to, Provide other means of render the. contract binding, by . i leaving the parties to adopt such r eligious rites and cereme nies as they should think fit.) Not undervaluing the s ceremony, I wished by all means to see it superiniuced ; but still, being aware of the difficulties of the matter, I did net propose to make it a condition indispensable to the validity of the contract. The Noble Lord still proposes the same thieg, though by a different process ; and not only do I not object to the course which the Noble Lord has taken, but I thins: the Dissenters have a right to be reconciled by it. The attendance of a civil officer is nut required by the Noble Lord's measure, except in cases of marriage -between Dissenters. fa such ewes the presence of a civil officer is essential to the validity of the contract ; but how does this differ from the proposition which I made ?—( Hear, hear.) I proposed that the marriage should be contracted before a Magistrate, but the Noble Lord pro poses that it shall taka place in the presence of the registrar. There is, it will be observed, to be oaly one registrar in each place, Tral this will render it impossible that the Dissniters can chops.? the day on which they shall he nrtrrie,l. Thi s give rise to mach inconvenience, in aldition to which you may be imposing on this officer to attend ecclesia=tteal rit es an d ceremonies' in which, if he be a member of the Established Church, he cannot concur. _ . Lord J. RUSSELL—He is only to be present during the marriage ceremony. Sir R. PEEL-Still he will be obliged to attend the mar. riages of Roman Catholics as well as of Dissenters, without concurring in the ceremony used by either.. The Noble Lord also provides that no marriages shall be solemnised in any chapel which has not been certified to have had a congrega, tion of twenty persons for at least one year ; but does not the Noble Lord know that there are many Dissenters whose religious worship is performed in private rooms? The Noble Lord must perceive from this how easy it will be to evade the law by pretended scruples of conscience ; but, so far as I understand the footing on which the marriages of the members of the Church of * England are to be placed, it appears to me that-there can be no objection to the measure on that bead. I see no material difference between the proposil 4 .3n of the Noble Lord and that which 1 made in the 'Session ; but still, if the Nobl e L or d' s p l an be more palaceable to the • Dis senters than mine was, lam free to that their feelings should be consulted. I make no objection to the principle of the Bill ; bnt I shall cor - ilder in what way the law can be rendered less Bahi a to defeat, an d how those frauds cm be best prevented which aro so dangerous to f a mili es an d t h e security of families. —( blear, hear. ) Mr, BAINES said, that as far as he understood the plan of Ow Noble Lord, it seemed to be satisfactory, both as re garded registration and marriage. By rendering the marriage of Dissenters a civil contract, he had obviated the only difficulty in the way of the successful reception of his measu;:e. It was plain that the Dissenters ought to feel deep gratitude to the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamsvortin arid, he be lieved, that they did feel grateful to that Right Hon. Gentle man. The Noble Lord did himself great credit in following up the Righ.t lion. Baronet's plan, and, no doubt, it would be a source 6t unspeakable satisfaeticol to the Dissenters when they learnt that they were to stand on the same footin. , as the members of the Eit a bli s h e d Ch urch i n reference to the' cele bration of marriage. With respect to church -rates, however. he coeld only say, not as an authorised person, but us an indi vidual Member of that House, that the Dissenters never would be content until those rates were altogether abolished.— (Hear, hear.) lie thought that what had fallen from the Noble Lord on the subject of the Universities of Oxford and Cainlaridge could not fail to give to the ilissenters satis faction, for all they wanted was to obtain: collegiate honours which would place them on a footistg with the members of those Universities. The only 7 / - ,naining point on which he would observe was that whlcit related to burial in the church yards of the E*tabli9l,ed Church ; and with reference to this he rukvii say, tint the Dissenters had no right to that which they claim A, because they could not enforce it without in vading the rights: and privileges of the Established clergy. They ialould remember that, not Wishing their own rights to be violated, they should not seek to disturb the rights of others.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL, not supposing Roman Catholics to be included under the head Protestant Dissenters, had felt it his duty to put a question to the Noble Lord. Finding, how ever, that they were to be comprehended in the provisions of this Bill, he (Mr. O'Connell) must express his satisfaction at the plan, because it would render marriages valid which were not so at present. The poorer classes of Roman Catholics had a conscientious objection to being married by a Protestant clergymen, and the consequence was, that their children were illegitimate, and after a few years both wife and children were ' discarded, and thrown upon the parish. It was in this way that the parishes were burdened with poor, who should be pro_ vided for by other and different means. As the plait would remedy this evil, be could not but approve of it. Mr. G 0 U LBURN did not wish to prolong the discussion. He, like his Right Han. Friend, was satisfied with 'be plan, so far as he could understand it the statement of' the Noble Lord ; but although hu Ynade this admission, he was not to be precluded from evpressing, on a future occasion, any objec tion that he ro''nt have to its details. Lord RUSSELL wished to correct an error of detail which he had fallen. He was quite sure that the broad and liberal principle stated by the Right lion. Baronet oppo site last year on this subject_ could not be objected to, and as the Bill embraced that principle, he did not expect that it would encounter any serious opposition. There could be no diffi culty about attending the marriages, inasmuch as each district would not contain more than 5,000 persons, and with respect to clandestine marriages, he did not think that this measure was less guarded by provisions on that subject than the Right Hon. Baronet's Bill of last year. This, however, was purely a question of detail. Sir R. PEEL—I suppose there is nothing in the Bill to prevent Dissenters from being married in the Established Church, and I am sanguine in hoping that as regards the fe males of the Dissenters, they will prefer being married there to any place else.—(a o Hear," and a latt;l.) LAW OF SCOTLAND, The LORD ADVOCATE of Scotland• gave notice that on Thursday the 25th instant he would, move for Bills on the following subjects—Scotch Bankru2. Estates, Scotch Bank ruptcy Law, Process of Cessir, lionorum, Instruments of Sa sine, Bastardy SettlemPnis, and the Commissary Court of Edinburgh. Mr. llnme' s motion for a Committee on the subject of the Assesserl - faxes was postponed until Monday. ne other Orders of the Day having been disposed of, the House adjourned at half-past 11. RAIL WA YS. The Petition for the Ulster Railway Bill was reported last night, and the Bill ordered to be brought in, and the following Railway Bills were presented and read a first time:—Midland Connties—London and Blackwall—London and Brighton— Sheffield and Rotherham—Cheltenham and Great Western —Birmingham and Gloucester—and Hull and Selby. PARIS. INFERNAL MACHINE PLOT. COURT OF PEERS, WEDNESDAY, FED. 10. (Continued from The Sun of Yesterday.) TRIAL OF FIESCUT, PENN, MOREY, BOIREAU, AND BEECHER, FOR THE CONSPIRACY TO TAKE AWAY TIIE KING'S LIFE BY MEANS OF THE INFERNAL MACHINE EMPLOYED ON THE 28TH JuLy, 1835. The requisitory of the Procureur-General lasted for nearly three hours. M. Patorni, who then began his pleadings in favour of Fieschi, demanded, on account of his own bad health, that the Court might be adjourned till the day after. The President refused this. His task, as Fieschi's defender, was to ward off from..him tho condemnation of death which he was so loudly invoking on his own head ; two advceates, indeed, had been charged with his defence besides himself, and he only spoke first through their kindness He then retraced the antece dent life of the prisoner Fiesehi, who, when under the decree of arrest, was abandoned by the woman Petit, and thus fountil himself deprived of all resources. It was then that the pri soner could not have avoided making bitter reflections upon the gratitude of Governments which he had served at the risk of his life ; this, added to his abandonment by the woman Petit, at the very time when he most wanted an asylum, de ranged his head, overturned all his ideas, and broke his heart. From that time he saw nothing but enemies all around him. The Court was then adjourned at five O'i lOCk. SITTING OF THURSDAY, FEB. 11. _ _ The prisoners Eieschi, Morey, Pepin, Borcau, and Bescher, were introduced by the Municipal Guards at the usual hour, and placed as on the previous days. M. Patorni resumed the pleadings on behalf of Fieschi, ob serving, that he hoped not to be interrupted in the arguments which he thought essential for the defence of his client. The Learned Advocate said, that it was fully proved that the crime, as laid in the act of accusation, had not been perpe trated ; it was not necessary for him to dwell longer on that fact, as be had satisfactorily established it at the former sit , ting. With respect to the third part of his defence, it referred to the conduct of the authorities on being informed of what was to take place on the 28th of July, and he had no hesita tion in saying. that had they not been guilty of the grossest negligence, the crime of which his client was charged would never have taken place. With respect to the confession of Fiesehi, that was drawn from him by promises, upon which he relied, being convinced that by revealing all he knew, his life would be saved. The Learned Advocate concluded by recommending the cause of his client to the justice of the Court, and hoped that, like him, they would be convinced that Fi eschi was not morally guilty, M. Dupont addressed the Court on behalf of tke prisoner Morey. He appeared before the Court to deknd the life and honour of an old man, and not only his honour,. but that of his family, from one of the foulest d ,mes that could be imputed to a human being. Havintr commented on the evidence of some of the witnesses a , r!ains - t his client, he dwelt parti cularl y upon that of Fie , 7,11, who in his opinion was not ent itled to the slightest toblidence, for he would ask what individual in Court Co'f,a escape being compromised by so base a character as No one could be safe from the decimation s of such a man.. Fiesehi ?—( here the latter smiled and took a p inch of snuff.) The fact was, that Fieschi was the sole author of the infernal machine, and, finding his head in imminent danger, he thought the only means of escaping a scaffold was by making pretended revelations against innocent persons, and thus obtain some promise from the Crown. The learned advocate was enter ing into an analysis of the evidence against his client when qnr reporter left. _ C OMMI SSION DE LUNA . TICO INQUF: itNDO.- - Tho voce edings in the Comm i ss i on of Lunae!', in the case of yesterday,resum n d p articularmoment transpired. and agai n adjourned 'otl7in re g of When Jekyll was informed of 6.2 elevation of his friend, Lord Cottenhain, he exelainrA " Poor Pepys ! he was bread to the Bar, and then h e went naturally to the Rolls : now he is turned into ch eese ." 11141aldtY0- I( da i y il . Wa Nothing THE StIN, LONDON, SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 1836,