The Sun. — London, England, 1808-05-19 00:00:00

1111PERIAL EZIRLUMENt HOUSE .OF PEERS. wEnmosDAY, !51.1..' 18. In the Roxburgh Appeal, " Ker y. Times and .er," Mr. Clerk _was further heard hi reply.—Fur ler hexing to-morrow. Some Private Bills were brought up, by Mr. Gra am, Sir Martin Foulkes, Mr. Campbell, Lord Bar ard, acid other Members, and read a first time. Tlie House proceeded further in Bland's Divorce ill. Two Witnes,es were examined, after which 16 further consideration of the Bill was deferred till londay. A great number of Private Bills on the table were prWarded in their respetiiive stages. Adjourned till to-tuorrow (this day). HOUSE OF COMMONS. • .WEDNESDAY, MAY .18. Goocn presented a Petition from certain .and-owliers, Farmers, and others of the county of utfolk; Mr. CAMPBELL a Petition from the City of ;lasgow ;, and General .TAIII.E;TON a Petition from le Mayor and 'Burgesser, of Liverpool, respe&ing to Report of the Committee on Distilleries; but, wing to the very , inaudable manner in . winch those etitions were read by the. Clerk, we are unable state with precision whether they were in favour the Report or in opposition to it. 'Mr, LETHBRIDGE presented the Minutes of the ;vidence stated before the Committee on Mr. Pal sees Petition. On the Motion of Mr. LETHBRIDGE, the Ac aunt was ordered to be laid before the House, of le per aentage due to Mr., Palmer, on account of ie net 'revenue of the Post Office, above 240,0001. •cam the sth of April, 1793, talhe sth of January, 608, together with an Account of the sums that (Ir. Palmer had received, &c. &c. _ Sir J. SINC,LAIR haying objeded to the word due" in the Motion, The SPEAKER informed the Hon. Baronet, the louse had resolved it "was due." CRIMINAL LAW. Sir S. rose to make his proposed Mo on on the Criminal Law of the Country. He was enscious that any person who proposed an alterae on in the Laws of the Country, stood in an ious point of view ; and the' only apology he had to fir for doing SioWas, that he had not taken up the ebje6t or suddenly ; but that the opinion vhich he had adopted upon it Nees the result of long eliberation. For many years of his life, he bad in !tided to submit it to the consideration of Parlia tent, aed.he felt himself to be culpable rather for avitto negletaed if so long, than for bringing it for ,'aril. in the present ustance. Ire common with telly others, be had always lamented, that by the ,rdhival Law of the Country, capitel punishments /ere appointed to be iiiili6ted fOr so many crimes. le ealc.,l" appointed,'' because, in lea, they were ors() . 4 freetienl'e executed, although no principle was sate established thee. that the certainty, and not is severity of the punishment,' rendered it eflica ioos. This principle had long been proved and tiblished to the world by Marquis lieecaria ; but ae - adetiretion which his work had produced in great iiritikin was unproduCtive of any change iit ur system, which was directly the reverse of that Writers; for with es ptiniehments ,were ' ,ioet severe end most uncertain. It was notorious, hat of the persons who were sentenced to capital einisleneets, few suffered death. In t 80b, three emdted ;Aid fitly pereons were capitally convicted in !:ngland and Wales, of whom only sixty-eight (be t less titan a fifth) wets executed. In t 8015, time tundred. and twenty-live persons . were capitally con 'teed, of whom only fifty-set en (being little more heti a sixth) were executed ! and when it was con littered that of the number executed, a considerable >onion was composed of persons who had corn tiitted murders 'or forgeries, crimes rarely pardoned n this Country, and that of the remainder a large Barr consisted of p rsons who had cammitted high- - Way rohberies aed burglaries, crimes not much more Frequently pardonel, it was evident that the num bers of persons guilty of felonies that had been exe cuted was very small, and that he was justified in ' stating, that not above one in twenty of criminals of that description un lerwete the punishment of death. I Now, whether this, generally speaking, ought. to be ' the state of the Law . in any Country, - namely,- that a Law should exist in theory, but be dead in prac tice, he would leeve for the House to determine. At peesent,, he would confine his observationseind iris Motion to one class of those crimes, which, as he had before stated, seldom ,received the .punishment se tech the Law appeinted, for them ; a class on millich the Law - ,indiaed extraordinary severity of eunishmete, whheut any well ebunded motive to that severity. He meant those cases where the ca eital part of the charge depended ota the amount. Ey a Statute of William :u Mary, privately to steal from a pereon five ehillings was rendered capital. Qiicen rkl4ll, to steal to the value. of sieiteeee in a dwelling house was rendered capital ; ater by a Stetute of Queen Elizabeth , a theft of so small a sum as twelve pence was under certain eireumstencee made a capital ofience.--- Unee one tecolletted the great changes that had taken place since the eteatitpent of those Statutes, one was astonishe'd :Oat the Law had remains ern.o hevere to the present meinent. It even it were et true assertion that Time was the greatest of all intiovatore, that assertion would be true on the present occasion. As the necessaries, the convenien cies;and true luxuries of life had become deafer, the life of man hind become cheaper. Many mischievous etie &s lurked onder this evil which were not manifest at first. 'The severity „of the laws occasioned the frequent non-execution of them. Juries were placed io the painful situation of choosing between the vio lative of two datir e s; their duty to their country, on the one hand, the duty of ,humanity _on the other. The consequence was Obvious. It was well known ow frequently Juries, against the most dire& evi dence, declined finding a criminal guilty of etealing above 3 certain veltiee Blackstone noticed this cir enmstanee id his conunentery, arid, charaClerized it by twice w .rde which no one could wish to see asso tiated—" perjtny." Long also ought.. this evil Id have Leen removed : and the necessity of re ntOving. it became every day more pressing and ur gent. So ali a Dumber of persons were convicted e,f these crimes, out of the great number tried for them, that an enccuragemeet was held out for their commissioe, Another consequence was, that with reser& to these who wore found guilty, the Crown exchanged its prerogative of extending mercy for the painful task of selecting those who were to suffer as an example. The Judges, to whom this authority was delegated, iu every county but Middlesex, found the exercise of it the most distressing part of their duty. To what uncertainty also did it not lead, both with respe6,l to t he circumstances by which the Judge was influenced in his decision, and also with respect, to his own opinion on the necessity of severity. On this subjett he was anxious to proceed slowly ; to do too little rather than too much ; to alter, not to inno vate. He should therefore content himself in the first instance with proposing the repeal of 'that most obje6tionable statute of the Bth of Queen" Elizabeth, chap. 4, the absurdity of Which was as surprising as its severity. He read the preamble to this statute, and .exposed, its inconsistency. There was another circumstance to which he was desirous of calling the attention of the House. 'lt was the case of persons, who, being accused of crimes, suffered imprison ment, took their trial, and then proved their inno cence. As the law now stood, there was no com pensation for such persons, unless the prosecution could be shewn to be malicious. He allowed, that under the best system of criminal law, suspicion must sometimes light on the innocent man, and that the good of the public might require his confinement until that innocence could be ascertained ; but when ascertained, he contended that the,sutferer should be compensated as fir as it wits praaicable le compen sate him.. In all parts of the kingdom, except Mid dlesex, a man might be coeitined eight moothe be - fore his trial ; and in the lour Northern Counties above a twelvementh. The imprisonment therefore of a poor or labouring 'man u uder such circumstances was ruinous to himself and ti ) his famtly ; it was the duty of the Legislature to av ert sdch ruin. Perhaps such extreme cases might no t often occur, but they ought to , be provided again t. He admitted that a difficulty might here be started, and that it might be said it would be highly impt oper to compensate all persons who were acquitted; because that acquittal frequently arose not from the t unocence of the party, but from some insufficiency its the evidence, or in formality in the proceedings.: This certainly was A , difficulty, but it might be ote;iated. The merits of the person acquitted, and his right to indemnity, ' might be determinable by the Judge before whom he was tried. Such a regulatik as would pteceed on similar principles to that of 11102, relative to utions, by which the Judge /as itupowered, taking all the circumstances at the cal e under his considera tion, to order the Treasurer of the. County to make . such compensation as justice demanded. He would introduce, therefore, a similar propbsition in the Bill Which be intended to propose on this subject. In the first place, however, .be would move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal so much of the Aet of the ath of Elizabeth, chap. 4, as releted to taking away the benefit of Clergy from persons stealing pri vately from th persons of others. Mr. Hteecee' did not approve of innovenion either in the civil or in the criminal code of th e country. Before any individual could be put en his trial, a ma jority of twenty-three pursuits must dal. de, ote his preinuuptive guilt. He conceived that the t eroposal made by the Hon. and Leaintd Bart. to coin, ;)ensate acquitted persons would be produdive of more incon venience than advantage. Mr. WILBERFORCE . differed so completely' froM -the Gentleman who had just sat down, that li e de clared he had experienced the most unmixed satis fadioe at what had fallen from the Hon. and Lek trned BAronet opposite. He well remembered that a (grent and lamented public - charaeter (Mr, Pitt), at an tautly period of his life, had intended to have a dtgest made of time whole of our Criminal Code, with a view of lessening, in a great degree, the ucunbe r of capital punishments which It contained ; and thei ob. jettions to which it, Was impossible to confute. He congratulated the House and the Country the .t an individual so well qualified for the task by his all Thy And experience as the Honourable and Learned Ba ronet had turned his attention to this must int. portant subject. • Sir JOH N Newroter agreed entirely in °pillion with the Honourable and Learned Baronet, and stated some cases of . extretne hardship that had oc.; curred in Ireland. Sir G. Hat. contended, that in Ireland, and l )nr ticulatly in the province of Ulster, there was as nu Ach humanity on these'subjeds as in England. .Sir J. Newreue explained. The SOLICITOR GENBRAL declared that everyekie mustfeel how highly indebted the public was .to U Hon. and Learned Friend, who, amidst the fieveve duties Of his profession, had turned his enlightened mind to the consideration of such. subjetas - as :those; on which he had that evening addressed the HbuSel Whether the attempt to grant compensation to per. sons acquitted of ofteuctsimputed to them, might nut be produttive of greater evil than good, was ltd: now the question.. He was certainly inclioed think, that-however plausable the theory, the . piats tice would be very injurious. 6ir BURDETT thought the question of eitremti . importance. He was ready to pay every , respat td the motives and abilities of the Hon. and Learned Baronet, but he must at the same time say, that.hh, proposition forgiving to the Judge the power of de claring, whether a person who- had been acquitted by a Jury ought to be considered as innocent or hot, appeared to him So contrary to the constitutional principles of the law of the Country, that he could not allow it to pass unobserved. It would be a most grievous circumstance in the administration Of jus tice, that' .the verdict of a Jury 'should be deemed ambi;uous, and that it should remain in the breast of the Judge to determine whether the person ac -quitted by that Jury had or had not been honourably acqUitted. Before the subject should be again brought before the House, he should turn his mind to it with all possible attention. After a few words from Mr. I), GionY, leave was granted to bring'in the Bill. Sir S. ROMII:LY then again rose. He was sorry that he had bees, so misunderstood by the Honour able Baronet, who seemed to conceive that, in the motion which he was about to submit to the House, any thing was included but the general question , whether persons accused, tried, and acquitted, stionid or should - not be entitled to compensation for the in jury which they sustained. The mode of d'eeiding „to whoin this compensation should be awar . cl:ll, or whether it should be given to all indiscriminately (which he shouidprefer to withholding it from all), would be open for discussion when the Bill was brought in. lie moved for leave to bring in a Bill to provide in certain cases compensation to persons tried and acquitted in a Criminal Court, for the damages sustained by them in consequence of hav ing been detained in custody and brought to trial. '['he SOLIC;ITOR GENERAL repeated, that in the view which he had of the subject, the evil would preponderate over the good. It the Judge refused to give compensation, it would be indicative of the tinl'avodrable opinion which he entertained of the innocence of the person by whom it was demand ed; and he would thus be placed in a very invidious situation. Besides, suppose a person were acquitted on an error in the indictment, before the merits of his case were investigated, how could the Judge then decide on a .claim of compensation ? As a novelty, this proposition ought to be watched with jealousy. It appeared to him to be impraeticable to execute it without much mischief. If the compensation were to be made out of the County Rate, it might prove a great discouragement to . prosecutions, or in the event of a trial that circumstance might operate on some minds against the accused. He ihould rote against the bringing in of the. Bill. Sir S. ItomiLLY declared his surprise that hit Ho nourable Friend should resist the introdulaion of a Bill, of the provisions of which he must necessarily be ignorant. With respeet to the proposition being a novelty, it was to be regretted that there have not been more novelties of a similar description. Mr. LEYCESTER said a few words, in the course of which he expressed a wish that his Hon. and Learned Friend would withdraw his opposition to the introduction of the Bill. The SoLICITOR..GENELIAL acquiesced. Mr. CHOKER entered his protest against being thought favourable to the principle of the Bill, be cause he did.not oppose its introduetion. Mr. CURWEN approved of the measure. Sir F. BURDETT would certainly not oppose the bringing in of the Bill. Ttic CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER also de dared that he Would not resist the introduction of the Bill, altholih he wished that the Hon. and Learned Baronet had stated more fully the grounds on which he proposed it, and the provisions which he meant that it should comprise. Sir S. 110 MILLY observed, that the Right • Hon. Gentleman had not been in the House when be opened the subjea. He shortly recapitulated the motives by which he had been induced to bring this subject under the consideration of Parliament. The CHANCELLOR of the ExcttEQUEK was of opi nion that the remedy proposed would be more in jurious than the evil complained of. Mr. FULLER was afraid that by the introdu&ion of such complicated arrageinents, people would be so puzzled that they would not understand the law at all. Mr. SHAW LE FEVRE applauded the humanity of the Hon. and Learned Baronet, buf hoped he would pardon him stating that he thought County Stock ought not to be touched, except in extreme cases. Mr. W. SMITH defended his Hon. and Learned Friend from the charge of innovation As to the immure being a novelty, every improvement was a novelty. Leave was then given to bring in the MIL COURTS MARTIAL. Mr. LITTLETON gave notice, that on Friday he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to assimilate, 'in certain rcspeas, the practice of Naval and Milita ry Ceurts Martial. His design was to propose, that their sentences should be final, and not subject to reversal. LORD ELLENBOROUCH. Mr. LEYCESTEE, adverting to the statement made on a recent evening by an Hon. Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett) when lie was not preseut, hoped the House would allow him to make some observations upon that statement. He trusted that they would more readily agree to this, when they considered how much the charader of the Noble Lord and of the Country at large was implicated in that statement. He un derstood that the Hon. Baronet had been advised by the Chair to postpone any titrther agitation of the subjea until the judgment of which be 'complained should be followed up by some 'legal proceeding. He was disposed to think that the House would hear no more of this business from the Hon. Baronet, in which case the imputations that had been cast on the condott of the Noble Lord would remain un- answered, and W. SMITH spoke to order. Unless the Hon. Gentleman meant to conclude with some motion, 'his observations were very irregular. Mr. LEYCINTER was not prepared to make any ;potion ; but when the House recollected that there was no motion before them when the Lion. Baronet made his statement, he trusted they would allow him to make a counter statement, under the same circu►nstances. He wasi proceeding, when he was again called to order by Mr. W. SMITH, who observed, that unless tl►e Hon. Gentleman would move for some paper, such observations: could only lead to-a disorderly dis enssion;;, , _ Mr. LEYCESTER thell stated, tint he wonid con- dude by Moving for the production of au Order of the COurr of King's Bench, for the discharge of a rule moved for in that Court for a new trial, in the attion brought against Sir Francis Burdett. On the suggestion of the SPEAKIIR, however, who inti mated that it was usual to give a formal notice of Both a motion, Mr. Leycester abstained from any further remarks, and gave notice, that he would move for the production Of this Paper to-morrow. DISTILLERIES. • Lord BINNING was desirous of postponing his Mo tion for taking into consideration the Report of the Committee on the distillation of Spirits until to morrow, if an lion. Gentleman, whose notice stood for to-morrow, would consent to put it otr. Mr.,W. TAyLoa replied, that he had been that _ _ morning applied to to post pane his Motion to-morrow (relative to the Dardanelles), for the purpose of al lowing the Local Militia Bill co be proceeded with. Considering the investigation of the subject of his Motion as of the utmost import:lke to the charaaer of the Country, and having already frequently post pined it, he could not consent to postpone it any longer. Mr.. W NDUAM reprobated this sort of hocus pocus, w hich the House was kept ignorant of what bn hitless would come before it. If the arrangements t;; it seemed to ,have been made were carried into ettz.cl, then it would happvn that the Centlemen who tame down Opt niAht to Iliten to a on the Distilleries, wouiii fitact thermelves in a debate on the Local ; and Oar row, those who would come to debate thr Militia, would be surprised by the substitutio the Distilleries. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied that there was any thing more in this circoinstanco than what frequently occurred, namely, - that when the first notice on the °icier- book was not proceeded with, the next was taken in its stead. . • Lord H. PETTY observed, that some disappoint matt must certainly exist in consequence of the postponement of the Noble Lord's motion; the more so, as in giving the notice .on Monday, the Noble Lord had declared that the motion would Ver- tainly come on this day. With respesa to the mo tion which stood for to-morrow, it related to a sub jee, the investigation of.which it was most desirable no longer to defer. - Mr. Baitirata, after an eulogium on the industry and talents displayed by the Noble Lord in the Chair of the Committee, observed, that he had been given to understand that a disposition had been manifested in a certain quarter to bring the parties who now dif fered so widely, nearer to each other in opinion. He thought, therefore, that the House would con sult its own convenience, by allowing an opportunity for any arrangement to be made upon tins subjeet• Mr. COKE was proceeding to state his objeoliona to the Report, when he was called to order by Mr. Bahaism, who observed, that the snhjea before the House was merely the time at which the Report should be discussed. Lord BINNING.--if alt itht Honourable Gent* man would postpone the Dublin Police Bill Own Friday; he would willingly bring his motion on dud day. Mr. H. LAseer.mts.—lf any thing like an accom modation was on the lapis (of which be declared himself pettedly ignorant), thought that Friday . would be a better day than to-morrow. Mr. W.WYtstga lamented that the Noble Lord had not determined upon this postponement last night. Had he done so, the discussion of the Local fit' litia Bill would not have been brought on su tin' expectedly, and in the absence of several Gentle' I men who were anxious to deliver their SelltiMelllS upon it. Mr. CuaWair was of opinion that the state of the Country might be such, with relation to otbdr Powers, as to render it a precedent to adept the re commendation of the Committee. Mr.Tnout4Totz requested that the discussion might be postponed till Monday, as his Colieague and he would have an opportunity before that day of leativ c ing the sentiments of their Constituents. A publi meeting in the County of Surrey would be held 00 Saturday, and he should be sorry that the dehato came on before that time. r' ed After some further conversation, in wh i c h Sir J• •Seabright, Sir S. Romilly, Lord Binning , bread, Mr. Barham, Mr. W. Taylor , Sir A. Mlles ley, and Mr. Wyndham:participated, it .was ag that Lord Binning's notice should stand for to-inor" row, and Mr. W. Taylor's for Friday. DROITS OF THE ADMIRALTY. Sir C. Pots having bad the satislaaion since he came to tbe.Houie of being informed by the Chan' cellor of the Exchequer, that the suhjea of is tut" tion was investigattng by order of Government, po.to poned it to Thursday se nnight. PETITIONS AGAINST ORDERS IN COUNCIL.' Mr. TIERNEY, adverting to the circumstance of other business being fixed fOr this day, propysed tv put off the further hearing of evidence upon the ders Council till some future day. . He wish O ed r* in proposing Thursday se'nntght tbr go in g into tine Committee upon the Orders of Council, that dur . should bean understanding that no other businebi should on that day interfere with this pro c eeding ._ He was the more anxious on this s ub j ect, becaLit be was aware of the inconvenience t hat must routt to the respeaable individuals whom he proposed t: examine, from being obliged to attend fr ont dflY t° day, without being certsin of their business cowing on. A short conversation ensued between Mr. Marry et Mr. Tierney, Mr. Windham, Mr. Ponsonby, INJr. A. Baring, Mr. Croker, and Mr. W . Wynne, or' the subjeet of the postponement of this suble t ' when the Speaker informed the House that understood the Witnesses had all gone away; at.ll which the Committee for the further conside3ols of the Petitions against the Orders in Coulicil 43 fixed for Thursday se'nnight. Ordered, ou the neatien of the Crtarcat,t.or. of tiln EXCHECtURR, pursuant to notice, that the O yu !! should to-morrow . resolve itself into a Coninuitegi h Gtd p s re , sen W t a relsi,aje a s i t l y d ~a m s e r r : to consider of so much of the Ark of the 48(11:11. l h a a t n " dis to es the Doti° t° Great 13ritilin and Ireland, which hnd Deell Oreto rlSed for exportation, and also with reslo, 6t e d size Goods imported within the period nwi lti f i f i be in said Ads, previous to the publication 0 ' • Orders in Council. Mr. Rose gave notice. that he shoold.te-11—, move for leave to bring in a, Bill for thellt03",.1011. of Wages amongst the Cotton -manuoct urer6 ' respetting the use of Machinery in the sante. imported COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ANNUITIES• P . Mr. R. BARING asked the Chancellor 0- t" 'be h IO 1--e chequer whether it was intended to II go ', 10 . Committee for the consideration of t he plan Wit sped to the Pubic The CIIANCIILLOR of the Exotimausa r• e i t bei that the tables were not yet pr inted, Ont i f " , 0 013 should not be ready by to-morrow, that he to ,,A nct press the resumption of the Committee 00 day. LOCAL MILITIA BILL. Laid CASTLEREAGH moved the Order of ' lle % for going into a Committee on the Local Militi4ll6 On t he question that the Speaker do now ► eat'e J Chair, t Ibe Lord MILTON moved an amendment" thg' ,„y House resolve itself into said Committe... co 14.11 ,),,, next, in consequence of a number of .Mell b ' 1.'4 , ti did not expea this question to be brought f olltf*. this night having gone away. the ariiing,l::::t Lo (' Lori _.ISTLERE,Atiti higierilOOCl 10 have been, that if the other business show",,,d come on this night, his Nil ‘Vji 10 Ut: Pr °. . c oil With. They could not expect a fuller atteikS3llo, the Bill than was then present ; and if jiY,,„ J' Member who might wish to take a part I .►' '"'",,ar. Clissivn wert absent, they would have othe r `ii''