The Sun. — London, England, 1810-05-10 00:00:00

!ru 1t ns the - ol' tt , as he k . O IC, itr~~t .~. - lave ion' ri3 s. , ; i~. i% t ~`E; f for frdo ‘. la tug l ug inSulted. The Lord jUslide'ot Eiibm \vas not afraid of encountering that :assembly. (la ; had passed that way in his carriage without p eo ger, and had been received with the greatest res 7 p et .% He believed it was not the intention of the , L i . It ( 1 1 erS to give. any offence, and he did not think ie:'respeatd. Extraneous matter ought not to be• t u tl eOled with it. In the petition itself it. was hard , ard expression - which, under all the circurre- - t th e li t , Was not justifiableee The petition called on rinnse to believe that no offence was intended ; th ethe Right- Hon, Gentleman said it cOntained ter t g but insult. Now why should they wish to in- Ole House ? Wilfully insulting the House, they e fuld but degrade themselves. They. merely stet- I 4 'b•eir humble opinions oh certain points. Al the c nsk " ybWhere l a g tocertain ciw sty in the stession,. nr dignity ? } `, W here was It 4r ipstice ?" ecc. All circumstances considered, E 'thought the Right Hon. Secretary would find . Tle t difficul'y satisfaCtorily answering those a:7 S tions. He Would itsk 'where was their dignity '.en an Hon,. Friel d. rose to make . his charges urtaite Members of That Hierse, and when l i lt defended abese.s because they were common. i a ; t petition - 'concluded praying for parliamentery lernt) and this, though it might surprise (he Right fi r " t 'e Gentleman, he could not think . improper. So l v ireen intending insult to that House, the people eed up to it as their safeguard, and only' waged , t ' agaiest,eorruption. Wreesiteoaca•would encourage the people t a Petition 911'0 occasions; but when,' the e: e t nninetitiOnethey presented what, he had almost in, the language of the law, was calculated.to o ‘ L iZ the Efause hate" hatred and contempt." They l a s h ` not to receive that wind) was stliistantially. •641,415iVe, because . the. style was guarded. They O ng Petitioners) presented it not with a view of Vlg themselves good, but to do the House evil. ejir conduta ehewed they had a radical distrust, bid almost amounted to denying that House fo be a `p a nel) of the Legislature., If ever again they mean ti assert, their dignity, they Ought to reject that peti t. He regretted that Gentlemen who sometimes lipressed concern at the lacguage in which the e m lse was addressed, should speak of others as they - ai . knowing that honest men may take.ditlerent t: \ vs of the .same subje6t ; unless they had reason tI • e think their judgment formed from corrupt Mg-. 1 4 a, it was not right to express themselves iu such e tl tnake as had been used. Oe - the 'question re traeOing the late expeditirou he had taken a Middle He could not .approve of the expedition, 8 .1 Could he condemn it in such strong terms as ao - e Gentlemen did, as being alike repugnant to ei r t bnion sense and - good intention. All lidminis -I:ll')na:haci been accused . in a similar way for the tr s t thirty years. The Duke of Portland's Aa!minis aa'tintr and those of Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox e had been in turn charged with incapacity' and want of in- These charges had become so common, t h a t they had lost their weight, and being applied Ir ' h ever e Ad m inistration could not be believed even just. He was nut insensible of. the excel .lll-I'ct of the Coneitntion. When- he knew. great en had corne 7. to this country but little acquainted t l th its laws, who, astonished at 'meat they saw, a °44 l not but contemplate those principles with won ter and admiration produced such happy ef • 4 b` 44 , was his opinion of it to be shaken by the ese of the Vulgar ?:—After a further eulogiune on . e l' Constitution, he concluded, declaring he would d e l wi s h t o reject a petition in which unintentional CProprier could of language might appear; but, when 4' 'aw one, which he only consider as a studied ti, s tilt, intended to degrade the House in the eyes of natiop, he should wish it to be rejected, but in I t h k h terms as would not deter others from stating `their grievances to the House, and - seeking redress .`their hands. PONSONBY observed, that having given his • Ittion respecting the Petitions of Westminster end oddlesex, and in favour of both, it Would be now o i tally i ncons i s t en t in him to move for the r e je c ti on r pthis. ,It he .had -subscribed. to the assertion ilot this conveyed an insult to the House, he should • t o te accordingly ' but as it evidently must appear 1 4 4 t it would not be prudent for . `petitioners to use i ti ti gnage which might be unfavoarabiy interpreted, no one could suppose that the Livery of London 4 :nld approach this House for a reparation of griev- Vtes, not in the 'language of petition but of insult. hi, were in truth the case, the House would be t i ght in re j ec ti n g the Petition ; and th e Petiti oners e ntselves*would labour node` a just reproach, that iendeavouring to diasuade' the. House from grant -4 their - Petition ; it would in tact 'be a method th tending to perpetuate the grievances which • th e y comPlatned••of. He print:pally, -rose to call attention' of she House to - certain observe \r'lls of an Hon. Gen'lenian behind him. (Mr. atelle) who had gone over several heads of the trtioneand dwelt or. that part respecting the Right Nv ; )11 . Gentleman opposite, and a Noble Lord, in ich it says, " where is ,thedigi4ty, where is the t o t', our of the House." ;He bad - to complain s not a n 'Y.in the present instance, but in tresey others, of •otl'evidently studied plane() tuisrepres,ne the. con et of Members of -- the House. - -At the time - the tr 13'ns'Netion alluded to took pllce, there was a Bill 4. "ittg for the purpose of preventing the conchal *Mess the Hen. Gentleteeti w ere guilty, and which, ' -` l, l , e Y themselves supported . But he would say that : ( , e ry one on his side of the House reprobated stleit lit n duet, and. conferred on it the scandal it me i4ed• There was therefore neither truth nor justice • sti the representation that' the 'How;e countenanced 84 0 1 measurek. These inisrepreFeeltatiens, so oppo e,et° truth, were reduced to the system, that a ll k uue men .should by looked onfas . opt; s•s _reors and pec ulators o f th e c o untry. In a w o rd, the publi c F' e re taught to beli ev e, that Garitlemen. of -finally, w ott une, and education, who had spent their Jives, ti:thout reproof, that. all this had 110, value, gave t o no title to charaeter ; but that they' were ready ' . ' e stlrrender every claim to integrity fir a place or a How unhappy, deluded, nay what fools I (i is t the, people be, if they believed such language. r his part, he would say, there was integOty in e blouse trough and there might be an opposi tion'pr.'i sentiments, he must have other nie befor e h e wou ld con d emn . Healluded to the e i to ' • Lord Spillers, when the House of ' n inons curried 'an -mPeachment agaipst him b e d t .he Lords .; y e t h e did n o t b e lie ve him to c l 4 Is ho . nest; nor had he such an opinion of Lord • e P i d 6 ll, elthough'he carried tou far the rights of • PeclOg'atiVe j oh tad. -66hfeAry, be thought he fen dered the gpreatest Serves after the civil war, when such mimics were brOught on, and hi those too; let it be recolleded, who pretended they alone pos... sessdd ail _the virt,tes, and alloAcd none to It was then ready to be -voted that Charles shdUld possess an annuity, independent of Parliamtnt. Lord Clarendon interposed,• and said, that though he was an advocate for the rights of prerogative, yet he would never consent to destroy. the dependence of the King on the- Parliament, Toe Hon. IVlernber 331. i; he was not disposed .to deny integrity to arty one; if his suspicion fell any Nyher.e, it would rather be on those who ever seemed forward 'to attribute every virtue to thethselves. He never knew _any man to cl:tim•favour for himself by misrepresenting others,whom he did not afterward know to be worse than t hose 'he accused. WARDLE, in explanation, said, that his state ment was, that the House had defended its conduct on the grounds of the practice beir,g well known. A division was then called for, when there ap peared— For Receiving the Petition Against it Majority PENAL LAWS. 1 - 2:8 -792 Sir S. ROIqILLY rose according" to notice, and stated that what .he was going to propose was not to alter, but to carry into execution laws which•already existed. It was not his intention to. snrprise the House ; if it was its pleasure,, it might postpone the decision till it_ had taken time to consider on the me rits of what he was about to advance; it was a measure not less important than that which lie had already proposed. The ebio - t of punishments was to prevent the commission of crimes, and this by three methods; Ist, by .terror of punishMent ; e)cl", by putting it out of the power of an individual to commit Crimes; and 3d, by the reformation of the offender. With the exception,of some comity goals, this last mode could be seldom found to exist here. A system of reform had been proposed, to put which in execution was; with the consent of the House, his intention: It was necessary to take a view : of the circumstances relAite to the transportation of convi&s to New South Wales. It Was not till the time of Charles 11. after the Restoration, that trans portation itself Was first adopted and carried into ef feet' ; those criminals who were clergyable. were sent to North Aineeica.. The first case , is instanced in Justice Keeliog's Reports, which were well worthy the attention of the House He saysethat •' those persons were not sent away as perpetual slaves, but to work for 'seven years in . th'e plantations.‘ The, three-last of which they received wages, in order to enable, them to'raise a .steek for defraying the ex pellees, of their return Ironic:: It will tre seen that this was carefully attended to till the 4th of George. L then. transportation was first adopted for persons • guilty of petty ,larceny. Grand larceny, it was known, was the denomieatiOn for all robberies above the value of twelve-pence, while every thing under ' that value was ceded petty larceny. In - this way things rested, till the revolution in America render . ederansportation there-imposSible: Pretioes tothis, he wished 'to observe,. that certain persons had been contraeted. with there to receive the.convitts bound by.indentures, so that. by this means the poor were Subjeaed,tO labour ; bet the rich were oniy as 1114 had it in their pewer yepurchase their sla very. In 1776, when open War was declar'ed, the sew system was adopted ; before that, however,:in 1776, the power was first of employing eon to labour in the - duck-yards, or on board the hulks. In 1779; an Ad aParliament was passed, giving power to transport convids to any part of she world, at the same. time it embraced another objeet, that of estahlishitig a mode of imprisonment at once tenclibg to cultivate; habits of industry and improve the morals; so that at the close of imprisonment, the individual would come forth reformed. The vir tue of this Act - had been framed 'by persons whose names commanded resped—Mr. Howard, Lord Auckland, and Judge Blackstone ; the latter, in an edition of his Conitnenteries, which he published shortly after, observed, that the prime objects of the plan which had been formed, vereto enforce labour andctiltivate religious instruction; to preserve the health and reform the habits of Offenders by accus tomirig them to se ious refiettion. The House must be surprised to INar that this : ..Ae ( l remained a dead letter for 3 . 1 years since it was instituted. nothing bad been dor*, an 7 i it was now a monument of the wisdom of those who framed it, and a reproach- to those who neileaed it. - Meanwhile the project of transportation to New South Wales was adopted, which he would venture tu say was the boldest and Most unpromiheg ever undertaken ; it was a proje& for influeecing the hearts of , mankind ; of establish .ing a colony from• the refuse of society ; not like the transportation 'to North America, which, from the population of ehis country, was but a drop of water in s the - ocean. •Every one Must acknowledge the difficulty of establishing. a colony without diligence and' zeal in the undertaking; and how this could be accomplished by those who were sent out on that expedition is truly wonderful. It was in February, 1787, than 267 . persons were first 'embarked, and those were 'selected from the hulks, a place more calculated to increase guilt ; et preSent indeed it was . better. regulated- 'ln this statement he was justified by a Report of a Coimnittee of thai House, which declares that among the circumstances which coil tributed to the•increase of ciime, the system of the, hulks was' a:greatesource e they termed them semi naries for vice-and wicke,ieees. At-.that lime the number of persons on board. amounted to 1449. Another 'part of. the Ri,pott coederans.the method of mixing the hardy.offenders of the town with those who came 'train the country, who were so sunk in despondence that they were ready to put an end to their existence, till by communication with the , of fenders of the metropolis, they: were completely herderied in iniquity. Instead of sendiegperSons to the colony who were acquainted with a country Us, those embarked in February 1787, and in Jut e 1709, were iseleeit.d from the criminals cif London and : Middlesex. 'ln proof of all this he co dded duce the publication of Mr. Collins, who was a papegyriSt of this system. Great anxiety seems to have been used to keep the prisciners in New Soeth Wales, and it apPears that in the next embarkation it was expressly stipulated, that none; of the prisoners should be brought back ; one man who had a' wi;o and child there would not be allowed to' return tin less he could provide for teem. In the year isnt this system was carried to such an cxent, persons who had already suffered six, and were sell-. ten - ded for years, wd . o ti•arsp farted to t otafir - Bay, and 'what makes this remark Ile is, that seven different embarkations had taken p lace during that period ; and all 'been suffered to r thss by without sending those couviEts. That th is should be al , lo,Ved to prevail with the men is unjust; but it is particularly so iri respe& to the wo, Lea, who have not like them the power of .worki,ig their - pagsage back. The Whole history of the Colony, since its establishment, 'displayed the great-est enorniiiies.— With respect to sending bop On 'board: the hulks; what had the State to ansWer f r, v then their morals were there Irretrievably ruined?— l iThe etfed of all .thiS may not be so much felt by u t as' by posterity; we are in faEL peoOng the South` Sea Islands with villainy; many conviCts, as, it app from the mis sionaries, have become Chiefs of t StPiagCSj bdVd illStrtletO them in theprinciplcsoi Navigation, and. are in faEt makit theft) a nest, of pirates. The ex-. pease attending it was enormous in 1797, it ex , ceeded a million ; the estatAisluner it of Pcnitentiary Houses would be comparativel y trif3ing. He thought it to be the g r eates t pocrisy for this`. House tp have given its, thanks, old the City of London to have erected a Menunient to Mr. Ho ward, and still allow every thing to remain as it was.' Terror of death would have but little effe6.l. in the presentlax state of the police. H t deprecated the idea of solitary imprisonment, win th he considered severer thrin any .death, and concliated by moving, " That ail humble Address be pl - e4cmted to his Ma jesty, that he would be graciously! p:eas...d, to give directions for carrying into executi.tm_-the 10th of his reign, relating to PenitenticAry H9LIVeS, and, for the execution of the 34t h of his reign, for ereta ing the same,'' &c. • Mr. RYDER concurred with many of the propo sitions advanced by the Learned Gentleman. He had taken every ypains in his power to lay a state ment before the House respeeting this subjea: He wished to make a few' observations. on the Hon. Gentleman's assertions respecting' the hulks. s At , the time the Committee of Finanke made this re port, they were certainly in a lad state; but at pre sent it would be but justice to Mr. Graham, the Magistrate, to state, that by his exertions a system, the most unadvised; was.cotiverted Mt° one the most salutary ; and it was nose remarkable for regu larity and good conduct. and it• was in the power of ' any Gemtletnan to make any inquiries he might think fit. There was, he said, much force in the observations of the Learned Gentleman, but it' was impossible to remedy‘mauy of; the evils. _ In the first vlace, it was impossible to separate the pri soners, and there were many oneboard, the hulks, from the state of their, health, incapable of working; `every attention however was paid to avoid thiS, but •the t ! eparation of the prisoners was impossible--a. subordinate advantage arose from this system,.which wa,„ that it was very economical. At present it is: estimated, at the average - price, that the labour of the con‘ jets detrays half of the w hole expellee. The excellence of their \A orkmanshipnearly compensated for the rest. - SOll he thought the system should be ultimately abandoned. Ile hoped the _Horh tleman would not bring on the decision on .an early day. He perfelaly agreed with. the, necessity of a Penitentiary for Females. . - • - Mr. FRANK LAND thought that the House and the Country were much indebted to liis Honourable Friend for laying his ideas on- the subject before them. He advocated the modeof transportation to Botany Bay, which he hoped Migio never be aban dolled,; and thought that, his Learned Friend's sys tem might partly be adopted 'by existing materials, namely, by the hulks, which he'approved,-and the number of which he said might be increased. Mr. WILBERFORCE 'bore testimony to the merits Of 'Mr. Graham, the Superintendant of the con yiLls on board the hulks. The system by which penitentiary houses • were 'erected was devised hyemen long acqoainted with the praCtice, who had deeply studied, and who were consequently enabled to form, a correct opinion as to the geeie ° ral . oood effects to be de k ived fr o m thi s s y stem . A s to New South Wales, that establishment he had reason to know was ill-conducted at its first for, mation. The .religions institutions had not been property attended to; indeed the most utter con tempt •had been shewn by the inhabitants to those. institutions. Much praise hoWever was due to Lord Castlereagh, who;durii)g the last. year, had appoint ed a Governor, who was taking every means in his power to remedy the evil, by directing particular at tention to be paid to. the religious institutions, and it was hopt d the most salutary benefits would ensue to.-the unfortunate colony. Under this impression, he!thougf,t it would be desirable not to give up the 'plan of sending:convids to that Settlement ; but be suggested, that the most propr eonvids to send would be those who of necessity mmrst be sent oat of the country for ever. So long as they kept an.eye on this country; and eXpeCted the period of'tneir return, they would be unhappy, and cOutl not be expected to be. settled, or 'to pay any .attent on to re ligious instruction, . He, hoped .the system. which the Learned Gentleinare had in view would be car ried into etTecit ; because, he- was convinced of its good tendency. The Hon. Gentleman recornmerid ed-to the attentive .perusal of Gentlemen the Re port of tie. Committee on these subjects. • He then noticed the. State of the gaol of Newgate, which, he observed, was not only. a reproach to the City of London, but to the country.. The manners and • morals of the prisoner's, from the crowded •skate- of that , pOson, were so contaminated; that it wag im possible to amend them. Religious instruction was thrown away, and those 'who were. committed for :offences, to the commission of which they were nut hardened, came out of prison finished and consum mate villainS. He recommended the state of this ' prisoO to the attention of the House, and• hoped, - - as his . aNications would not permit him, that some other Gentleman would institute an inquiry and en deavour to-prodUce some alteratido. - Mr. Witsranam did not object to the proposition of the Learned Gentleman, which he hoped might produce the good effeCts which were expected. He' observed that, t he Settlement as, a colony of thieves, • sent there beeaue perhaps they had neirlier m-mey • nor friends to proted them. Although at the first,. as the Hon. Gentleman who spoke -last had-Slated, it bore an unpromising aspect, yet the endeavour tO to ieform not be hastily given up. With Jespea to the penitentiary houses, tliat system, as ,ltu, understood, was already established, for . the Owie - country is full of those .houses, and there fore it trust be hoped the practical effed intend • ed would the hpfeattig ligioti among the convicts; the HOrt. GentletiLid Said he was 'rather jealous of the institution, be:. tauie; insteid of being a syslern of itnprtyrement; it tkrould be one•of fanaticism, so tlrat the conviMit under it would exhibit a mixture of aliginal profii;. gacy and of thieyery and hypotrisy. Sir W. MiLNitt thought the. measure of the - Learned Gentleman would not be..advcintaggons W the colony. The Hon. Baronet stated; that in thd boases in Yorkshire the harder. Men worked the more Money they were entitled to; which was retained for their use until the period .of their Confinement expired, when it was paid 'to them. This; was a wise proeeed. ing, and tended greatly to reform the Manners of the prisoners. Mr. W. POLE said; he was not in the House when the Honourable and Learned Gentled an be gan his speechi but *he bad heard enough Of it to know that his proposition *tA entitled to the must serious eougideratio . rL felt the advantages which the public; were Weaq to derive from a lull invosti-, _ . gation of this subjea, because he had, in lii o:fit . ..jai situation in Ireland,' had Mn opportunity of esainin ing'attentively the -rases of persons sentenc,d td transportation. He did not hear What the Hon. Gentleman had Said ahotit siz.nding prisonerg to Bo tany Bay, but he was . .stire, if that .s3 , sti4zi was pro dtxtive-Of evil in this country ; it w-as'pr6tiu(cti:•e of ulna greater, evil in Ireland.. When he had; in tre disc::u . geofhis duity,xionined into the Lases of rise criminals in Ireland, under sentence of trabgporin: tion, hefimnd numbers of them in a stay of t e greatest misery and wretchedness.. It was inn;-6s,i i;le for the Government here to provide vesselS, a 3 oftee, as might be necessary, to convey pr;soners to s • Botany Bay, and the consequence was, that there were Many-Cenvias who had been in gaol, when he , made his inquiry, two, three, four, and five yea'ts, under sentence of transportation. The situai ion cif these unfortunate people was wretched beyond de"- serietion, but the Means of relief were not. easy to be found. It appeared,' hoWever, that was a Law in Ireland which had nearly become obsoicte, which -gave Government the -power ; _ un d er c, rta ti • circumstances, Of 7 . commuting transportation- f r imprisonment.-- There -were, at- the, time hee was alluding to, • about sixty fern de -t; and between fifty and. sixty males, in Deblin, under tules of transportation, many 'of whoin had been - along - period in,' prison. Upon an apiAica ti on to the Judge's for their opinion, they stated, that Ce period which these unfortunate leings had - passed in . prison could not be taken into account in their sen- • tence of tsanSpertaticie. The Lerd Lieutenant con:: ceived this to be iicase worthy of:11 1 13 most attention, and upon application to the proper aiv e thOritieS, lie ordered 'every possible inquiry to be_ Made into thee subject, _and it appeared that th -re, -was a law in existence which afforded the means of relief. The . Lord Lieutenant did then, in pursuance of the authority with which he was invested, elect Penitentiary Houses in different parts of the city of . Dublin, and removed the convicts from that sate of misery, in Wihichlie e had described them to be, into those houses,- 'placing them under such care as" afforded a rational ground to hope that their murals Would be improved,.and explaining to them, th a t if they conducted-themselves in a proper manner, - , sentence-of transportation would be commuted for , imprisonment. -He had now the satisfiction of stating, -that this % experiment had most folly answered: ' The sixty female contiets, who had been confined in Newgate in cells. of twelve fet square, ten or- twelve of them in a' cell, in a state.of the most abject misery, and had been in that wretched conaion for two, three, or four years, were removed from, their cells, and placed in the Penitentiary House ; and he had the satisfaCtion of'stating, that it appeared.. from the weekly returns which he • received respelling these persons, that the greatest reformation had been ef fealed—they were now cloathed, employed in dif- • ferent kinds of work, and were regularly attended either by Protestant Clergymen or'llomao Catholic Nests, acCording to their religion. They had be come industrious, and so anxious were they to be employed, (hat they aetually drew lots for the looths and other materials, with which they were not sup plied in sufficient abundance. Such, was the change in the condo& of these unfortunate people, that . there was every- reason to hope, that; at the expiry-. ' lion of their terms, they might be restored, C0m.... pletely reformed, to society. The same plan - had been adopted with regard to the male convicts, and with equal success. With this knowledge upon the subject, he was 'strongly impressed, With - the belief that the proposition of the Hou. Gentleman might be prodnaive of the greatest advantages / and he was convinced, that when Gentlemen turned their attention to this subjeel, they would find it more easy to accomplish, 'than they thigt.f..it first suppose,. The present Lord, Lieutenant s had also taken advan tage of another LaW, Which enabled him to te - ea Penitentiary HoUses for Jtivenile Male Convias, a,d this measure had also prodUced the most beneficial . result's. Many of those uufortunate beings, who would have remained .in•Newgate, and ,have had, every moral feeling completely destroyed by ex tin pies of every species of . human depravity, had been, by the adoption of the system he bad alluded to completely refotmed. :This plan - had been :sally adopted by Lord Hard wicke, but. had been. mucti improved and extended by the ,pre 'see t Lord Lieutenant ; and a Penitentiary House had also been ereCled for Juvenile 'Female Convias. •the 'which -he had introduced . respetiting Gaols in ,Ire- Land, there was a clause to enable the Lord Lieute milt to establish 'Penitentiary Houses, under cer tain regulations. He had inserted th.v.elothe, cauSe it appeared to him, that if the Governme at had the power to establish Penitentiary floases, - tt e necessity might in -a great degree be saved, of send:, • ing conviels out •of the Kingdom. - One of the greatest difficulties in 'the way Of i his-plan of reform was, that if the Morals of a convict laecatne ever so - thoroughly reformed, still he was turned out into so ciety with a stain upon his character.' InDublin; how ever, they possessed one advantage, which he kk Oilld mention, in order that the Hon.. Gent, might t e r n his.attention to it. There was in Dublin one insti . ttition• called the " House of Industry," Into whiCh . every pauper might- get admission, or if they did not choose to enter, they might obtain relief. Tt.e Governors . of the House of IndUsti'y had' ch ertully of their assistance in superintetidir,g the con , duct of `those placed in the Penitentiary Houses. I 1 1 1 411 ,~ 116 rri ar— 10 - la e si buc tive :011 tuai u ►cl, ;ler4 well a t° tipJ ; I vy' 1 to 1 1(30'. 1 01 -, , ere • aild 0 0:C td r,. of Ot - Ill° 4'05 tsl , O ct the