The Sun. — London, England, 1836-03-01 00:00:00

-. - executed and perfected by this Corporation until --- to the Right Hon. John Earl of -- at the yearly rent of 9/. 15s. 6d. sterling." These resolutions were passed without oppos • ition To this the Commissioners added, no fine was to have been paid for this fee-farm grant. which, according to the rental produced by the Corporation, and the evidence of the Hon. Robert--, was to convey for ever to Lord -- a pro perty producing 3201. a year, exclusive of Mr. 's rent, and the rent of the barracks, and, according to the statement of the inhabitants, upwards of 5001. a year for a rent of 12/. per . ennum. It might be said that the property belonged to the patron. If so, was - he the proprietor by an absolute con veyance, and in that case, why was there any difficulty made about showing the deed of conveyance ? If he was merely a trustee, then he was liable for the rent ; and he hoped it was not yet too late to produce a return. If that were done, he believed it would be found that the patron had received some thing more than a mere rental. He would proceed to enume rate some other boroughs. The next he should mention was Cashel, the patron of which was Mr: Peunefather. Otte pro perty belonging to the borough consisted of 1,548 acres, rented for 99 years, at a lease of 87/. Another consisted of 58 acres, at a yearly rent of 11/. 12s. on a 99 years' lease ; and a third of 141 acres, fur the same period, at 13/. Gs. 11d. The tao last properties were not of great extent, but they were valuable, and he believed would let at about 100/. for every 50 acres. It must be clear, therefore, to every impartial per son, that if that property was corporate, and he had not heard any one venture to deny the fact, it was not managed with any regard to the benefit of the inhabitants, but in such an extraordinary manner as to show an utter disregard of public opinion. The first case which he had mentioned con- Srmed him completely in the remark. The patron held a i etsperty of 1,548 acres, which had been let on a 99'years' lease, at the trifling sum of 871. The person who had the last 'ease proposed to the patron to renew it when there were three nears to run, and offered 10,000/. fur the renewal. That sum wagerefused, and he offered 15,000 L ; that also was re fused, aril finding that he could not get a renewal of the lease, he sold the remainder for the sum of 2.5001., and the property was immedi seely let for 1,500/., making a rental of 4,5001. for three years. Let the House look at the sequel. As soon as the patron got the i Nroperty, though he had refused 15,0001. for the renewal, he lets it to one of his family on a lease for 99 years, and takes rather less than had been paid by the former lessee. That property was in the neighbourhood of Cashel, and, valuing it at only 1/. the Irish ac re, it would produce a rental of 1,500/. a year. That property we s left for the benefit of the inha bitants ; and on looking at tare report of the Commissioners it would be seen that the supply of water was not more than hall what was required. The Conamssioners report from evidence which they had taken, that 5001 a year would amply supply the town with water, and about 500/. more would have been requi site to afford water for the bleachfields; yet 1,500/. of money, destined for the inhabitants, was taken by tho patron. The Hon. Member then referred to the evidence given cy the Secretary Of the Board of Health, and Dr. Fitzgerald, from which it ap peared that the inhabitants suffered much from poverty and want, and that a sum of 500/. expended annually for t:e supply of water and other purposes would be of the greatest belle& in enabling them to procure the means of subsistence. He could give similar cases to a great amount, but he had said enough to 'prove that the Corporations were bad, and that they ought not to be truated with the management of the borough funds, or be intrusted with the administration of justice as Ma`gistrates— (Hear, hear .) He would next come to anot her sub j ect, which affected the public even more than the mismanagement of the funds, or the shines caused by the defective state of the Ma gistracy. The House was aware that the Grand Juries had the most extensive power of taxing the inhabitants. They not only bad that power, but tlley also had the power of making con tracts and auditing their own accounts. In Dublin that was peculiarly the case. Nearly the whole of the Grand Jurors were selected from the Corporation, and it was a well-known fact that from 1829 to 1832 the number of persons who had served on Grand Juries were 336, and of these only seven were Roman Catholics, and only 35 were not members of the Corpo ration ; and the members of the Corporation having of course the majority, took care not to place these 35 on Graeid Juries, when any fiscal business was to be done. The same was the case with Cork. In that town there was a population of 100,000 and the number of freemen 273. The affairs of the town are in fact managed by a club called the " Friendly Brothers," mad the consequence is, that a vast proportion of persons of wealth and intelligence is completely excluded. The same system prevails there as in Dublin, and all persons on Grand Juries, who are not members of the Corporation, are excluded when any fiscal business is transacted. Yet these persons assess the inhabitants yearly to the amount of 4,000/. or 5,000/. for rates. In Dublin they assess between 30,000/. and 34,000/., and in Limerick about 6,0001. yearly. All Roman Catholics are ex cluded. Another great evil arises, and more particularly in Dublin, from the mode in which Sheriffs are nominated.---J ( Hear.) In Dublin, Cork, and Limerick, the Sheriffs are nominated by the Corporations. Dublin contains a population of more than 260,000 inhabitants, the greater part of whom are of the Roman Catholic persuasion. The Common Council nominate eight persons possessing certain property, and of these the Lord Mayor and Aldermen choose two to serve the office ; but " care is generally taken to elect individuals pos sessing the political principles of the Corporation, which are avowedly exclusive and anti-Catholic ; and as a test of his opinions, unless otherwise sufficiently known, the candidate for the office of Sheriff has been required to engage that he will propose at his civic entertainments a political toast whieh , bas long been considered a pledge of those principles. When the functions and duties of the office of Sheriff, and the extensive powers vested in those filling it, come to be considered, it will be obvious how injurious to the administration of justice the effect must be, of the suspicions which (however upright and .impartial the conduct of individuals) must attach to their per formance of those public duties in the minds of the great body of their Roman Catholic fellow-citizens, and of those of other persuasions who are opposed to the political views of the Cor poration." Could anything be more unjust or more likely to be injurious to the proper administration of justice ?—(Hear,) i ff saying so he did not impugn the conduct of any individual Sheriff, for the practice was all the same. And, besides that, the duty was neither done by the High Sheriff nor the Sub- Sheriff, but by the Sheriff's officer or clerk, who pays a cer tain sum to the Sheriff. The following is the Report of the Commissioners relative to the way in which the transaction is managed in Dtfhlin :—" The power given by law to Sheriffs to delegate the duties of that office to their Sub-Sheriffs has been acted on in Dublin in a manner which is substantially a farming of that oft7ae, and not always to the Sub- Sheriff him self, but to certain iniNviduals who act as clerks or in subor dinate stations in the Sheriff's office. These persons some times recommend a nominal Sub- Sheriff, for whom they pro vide the necessary security (20,000/. ); they engage to pay to each High Sheriff a certain sum, varying from 1,200/. to i 1,5001., and to pay the expenses of the office, and a small salary to the nominal Sub-Sheriff. The ordinary duties of the office are performed by these clerks, the Sub-Sheriff being merely nominal, while the High Sheriffs decline interference with the details of business, lest it might prejudice the security given for the conduct of the Sub-Sheriff. Thus absolute con troul over these very important public duties is placed in the hands of individuals filling no ostensible station, and deeply interested by the terms of their bargain in the rigid exaction of the official fees." In some cases also the Sheriff has the power of charging 5 per cent. over and above the psual fees. With respect to the appointment of Special Jurors, the Com missioners report that the panel for Dublin amounts to about 700, and that it is the constant practice of the Corporation to place at the head of the list 100 of their own body ; and though some of them may be challenged, the result was. that all trials which had reference to property or the liberty of the subject were tried by Special Jurors, and these Jurors were connected, some hew or other, with the Corporation. It was worthy of remark, that the number of Roman Catholics this year on the panel was only 70, or about one-tenth of the whole. In Cork the case was the same. The Commissioners report that in that town many respectable inhabitants are not called on to serve as Special Jurymen, while peraons who had been bankrupts or insolvents were allowed to serve. In order to show how justice was administered under such a system, he would give an instance front judicial proceed ings which had taken place at Limerick. The Corporation of, - that town thought they had the exclusive right to the fisheries in the Shannon, in the neighbourhood of the town. The fishermen disputed the right, and while they were in the act of fishing the officers of the Corporation tired at and wounded one of the fishermen, who immediately landed and seized the fire-arms. The fishermen were taken before a magistrate, who refused to interfere; but at the assizes an indictment was drawn up against the fishermen and a true bill found ; but on being brought to trial they were instantly acquitted by the jury with. the approbation of the .fudge. Having stated these de fects in,Corporations, as regarded property and the adminis tration of justice, he thought he was warranted in saying that there was no person, whatever his political opinions might be, who would contend that the system should continue.—( Hear.) And the question then was, what was the remedy to be de vised which the House would sanction? In considering that question the House would naturally consider the Acts passed for reforming the Royal boroughs in Scotland and England, and he would ask them to sanction a stem founded on similar principles.—( Hear.) The House was aware that there were no rates of qualification in Ireland, as in this country ; and it would be therefore necessary to fix the qualification according to the rent, varying according to the size of the towns. It was proposed to make the qualincation in seven large towns— namely, Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Kilkenny, Belfast, Galway, an d Waterford, a 1 0/. yearly rent, wheth e r for a h ouse w ith land or without. Ic' the same rule was to be applied to the small towns, it would be seen from the instances which he was about to give, that the inhabitants would not have a full or fair representative system for the management of the affairs of towns . The town of Lisburn, containing about 800 house holders, has only 91 persons entitled to vote for Members of - Parliament. In Dungannon the number of householders is about 600, and the electors 176. In Drogheda the number of householders is 3,000, and the electors 371. In Ennis, Kinsale, and Portarlington, the numbers of householders are respectively as follow :-1,100, 1,000, and 500, and the e3ectors for the first not 100, for the second 90. and for the last not more than 30. Dundalk had a population of 10,000, but very few of the houses were rented at or above 10/. a year. In the year 1828 an Act had passed for reforming some of the abuses which h a d l ong prevailed in the smaller Irish towns. By that Act, householders paying an annual rent of 5/. could apply to the Lord Lieutenant (if two-thirds of them assented) for leave to assess themselves for lighting, paving, &c., the town. The Commissioners, in alluding to that, say "the ill effects arising front/she appointm en t o f i rres ponsible officers, required a remedy VoLfe . . Parliament." That Act (9th Geo. IV., cap ,- 2) gave to thC ll 4l4useholders the right of voting its the gection of their'Muni& al officers (andit was pro p 'used to extend the princiile , ; it to all the towns of Ire 4. l ai. td, except the seven errant ated.—( Hear, hear.) ' He } m a i eyed that such a qualificalim would not create a too num ,. `rows body of electors. It was also proposed that in the fit it schedule the qualification for a Councillor or Al derman thcnid be 1,000/., and in the rest 50/. By the Act to -~ ____ The tic hich he had referred the towns of Drogheda, Londond• err , Sligo, and Clonmel, were already divi:led into wards. evess burgesses, it was prop osed, should elect the Common C ut our. y e very year, and one ha lf of the Aldermen chould t h ree years—the election of t he Aldermen to be decizied b t Ziebt grea t es t number of votes. A c ommission of the peace -s ''rd be granted to th e Ma y or in the smaller towns if the L Lieutenant approved—in the 11 towns enumerated the Mayo, to be a Justice of the Peace—making altogether about 140. Corporate Magistrates. On the 30th of December, 1836, the present municipal officers would go out, if not re-elected. The Bill also proposed to give the Councillors off the first mentioned large towns, namely, Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Kil kenny, Waterford, Belfast, and Galway, the nomination of their Sheriffe with the consent of their Lord Lieutenant. That power was now vested in the Lord Lieutenant, but the same parties might be elected repeatedly, though rejected by the Lord Lieutenant. It was therefore proposed by this Bill to make it imperative on the burgesses (when a person was re jected) to proceed to the election of some other persons. These were the general provisions of the Bill, and it remained for the House to say whether, havin g g ranted Municipal Re form Bills to England and Scotland, they would not do the same justice to Ireland. He trusted a measure founded on the same principles would be meted out to that countr y . The Municipal Bill had worked well in Great Britain, and 14 did not see why the raeult might not be the same in Ireland.— ( Hear, hear.) It had been said that such a Bill would only take power from one party and give it to an other.—(Hear, hear.) Now if he thought it would have the effect of taking away power from the present parties and transfer the power to another body equally exclusive and iatolesantif siwh a body could be found—(Laughter)-11 it Would have such au effect ? no one would oppose it more strongly titan himself. But he de s nied it would have such an effect. It would have the affect of doing away with the selfselective system—it would make the accounts of the borough Anaws public; and he believed the offices would not be confined to onse party or Al/Other as was the case now. No one could say that the present Pqrperaters represented the feeling of the jehabitents, aed taking the se hole number of 13,000 persons, not were than §,tanc) were resideet iu the boroughs. The very circumstance that tie system was so exclueive prevented many most respectable men , and men of li:Sesal feelings. from becoming members of the Corporation. For L'ef hart, he did nut tbiiik the Bill wo uld give the ascendency to ae:7 Paeticular party, Whets the Reform Bill was passed the same :'suntents were used a het the result proved that these arguments were Slot well l'uundP4. He would refer to the debate upon the proposal fur e6L'lling a second time the Bill for extending to Ireland the Reform Bill, upon the same principles as those upon which it bad been adopted in England ; and his reason for doing so was because he felt it to be impossible for hies-to use arguments so strong and so convincing as those which were used, upon that eceasion, by the Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire (Lord Stan- ley) :—" It was said, on .more than one occasion, that the effect of this Bill would be to give a preponderating influence to the Catholics of Ireland. Now, even if he admitted this to be the case, it would still be no argument, or, at least, not an argument for the year 1832 ; for, since the passing of the Catholic Relief Bill in 1829, the distinction had ceased between Protestant and Catholie.—( Cheers.) If, then, the distinction between Protestant and Catholic had ceased to be longer recognised by the law, aad if the Protestant and Ca tholic were alike eligible to all offices, and to seats in both Houses of Parliament, upon what ground could any one turn round and say to the Catholics, ' We cannot extend this fran chise to you, because you are, Catholics ?'—( Cheers.) This would, indeed, be keeping up a religious distinction, after political ones had been done away with.—( Cheers.) It was also argued that the measure of Catholic emancipation was only a compromise, and that when it was conceded security was given in the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders. It was not, however, a measure of compromise, and no seen. rity was given ; for the 40s. freeholders were disfranchised, not because they were Catholics, but because they were de pendent on their landlords, and too often on the priesthood. He trusted that the House would listen to him, while he pointed out to them how utterly groundless were the fears of danger to the Constitution which some persons entertained ft om this measure." The Noble Lord then proceeded to argue that the boroughs founded by King James were not founded for exclusively Protestant purposes, and said—" It was argued that the Bill would contravene the intention of James 1., who had chartered 40 boroughs for the express purpose of giving a preponderating influence to the Protestants of Ireland. He denied that such was the intention of James, and he was borne out in this opinion by the speech of Sir John Davie on the opening of the Irish Parliament in 1660, who said that the Parliament was summoned to legislate for all classes of the country, and that the 40 new boroughs were created in order that one half of the community might not legislate for the other half without their couseut.—( Hear, hear.) In order to show that such could not be its object, the Members returned of each religion were not very dissimilar, there being 125 Pro testants and 121 Catholics. Looking, therefore, at this Bill even with the eye of one bigottedly opposed to the Cetholies, he must come to the conclusion that it could not add more than six or seven Members of the Catholic interest.— (Hear, hear.) It was curious with respect to corporate and nomination bo roughs, that their very rottenness was made their merit ; for it was said that if the inhabitants could agree with the Corpora tions there would be no danger in admitting them ; but as it was improbable that they should, they would have no communica tions with their.—( Hear.) They were bound to a. 14 the present Bill by every tie of justice to a cou ntr y to which they were united, he trusted, by inseparable ties, He called upon them to look at the regard paid by the Irish Members towards the English Reform Bill, and to say whether those members had not taken a deep interest in its success—whether, in fact, their advocacy of it had not been frank, and open, and gene rous ?—(Loud cheers from all parts of the House.) The principle was the same for England as for Ireland. It was just in this country ; it was equally so in that ; and, indepen dent of the danger of withholding a just measure, they should remember, if they refused it to the iitt,er while granting it to the former, they would furnish thereby the strongest argument for a repeal of the Union between the two cottetries that-he had yet beard uttered--( Hear, bear) —for it would he emit ting that they looked at English interests in one point of view, and Irish interests in another—that in England they are determined to legislate according to the voice of the people, while they had made up their minds to legislate for Ireised by stifling it."—(The reading of these extracts wag received with loud cheers by the House.) Would it be said—could it be said that it was either just or politic for the British Parliament to refuse to Ireland a Municipal Corporation Re form Bill upon the same principles as those upon which such a Bill had already been granted to England ?—( Hear, hear.) He dared to say it might be so argued, but let those who were abOut to do so, in the first instance, answer the arguments of the Noble Lord.—( Cheers.) In Ireland there were 39 boroughs returning Members to Parliament, exclusive of counties. if after passing the Bill for Catholic Emancipa tion and the Reform Bill, they had in that House only 13 Ro. man Catholics and 36 Protestants, surely it did not prove that any species of reform would give a preponderance to any reli gious persuasion.--( Hear, hear.) In the present Parliament the majority of Protestants was pretty nearly the same. Ia- I deed he would defy My one to show him soy one instance in I which the Catholics had preferred a Catholic to a Protestant candidate at an election, merely because of his religion, No such instance could he addeeed.—( flear, hear.) In the ha. rough which he had the honour to represent four-fifths of the population were Roman Catholics. There had been two con tested elections in that borough. On each occasion these was a Protestant and a Catholic candidate, and on both occasions the Protestant candidate was returned. fie would ask the House to look to the result of the proceedings under the 9th of George IV., which created a 5/. constituency in /re land, which constituency had to elect in each borough 21 Commissioners. In Coleraine the whole of the 21 Com missioners elected were Protestants. In Newry, out of the 21 Commissioners, 13 were Protestants, and eight were Catholics. In Youghal there were 19 Protestants elected, and only two Roman Catholics ; and yet all these elec tions were made by a Catholic OL constituency.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In fact, religion never entered into the consi s:eration of the electors; they were •only governed by the poli. tical (minions of 'the candidates. The necessity of a municipal reform being self-evident, he was desirous of knowing if any other tneastes'e was to be proposed as a substitute for the one he was then discussing? He imagined from the cheers from the other side of the . House upon the presentation of the peti tion that evening by the pion. Member for Belfast, that some Hon. Gentleman intended to stropose the total destruction of those Corporations. He, howe'vee, was atesid to go so far as to destroy, for he was only a reformer.—( hear.) H" would reform and not destroy.—( Hear, hear, from Opposi tion side of the House.) And until he should find some structive proposition put forth, he would not believe that it could emanate from the other side of the House.—( Hear. ) No one, be presumed, could sanction the leas made by the patron of Cashel to himself; neither could they sar.ction the appropriation of 9,000/. a year in Drogheda, nor the defraud ing of the poor of Cashel of that property which belonged to them. He almost thought some proposition mlght be made to vest those corporate properties in the hands of COmmissioners. Why, that was the very thing this Bill proposed to do—( Hear, hear)—to vest those funds in the hands of Commissioners elected by the people, and who were necessarily interested in the property which was committed to their care.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He claimed the votes of all those who were in favour of reforming corporate abuses against any mea sure of general disfranchisement, should such be proposed, and in favour of his Bill, which had no such destructive ten dency.—( Hear.) He claimed also the votes of those who de clared that there was nothing in the state of society in Ireland which could warrant the injustice of denying to that country what had been already given to England.—(Hear, hear.) And he claimed also the votes of those who had on former occasions so warmly and earnestly advocated the vested rights of freemen ; for such persons he would boldly ask how they could support a propositio n the effect of which must be to de . :troy all freemen, by making them freemen of a body which no longer existed?.—( Hear, hear.) He claimed, therefore, the vote of the Noble Lord, who had said the refusal to Ireland of the same justice which had been serve as a handle for reviving freemen, of those who had so f oft t en e h accorded to England would tngt the question of the repeal of f f the Unioe, while he also claimed heretoforevotes of strenuouslyef r tends oo th o e . tefided for the preservation hear.) He felt he had trouhl t e h d osefreemen's righte.—( Hear, the House at considerable length, and he would therefore conclude by stating that the present Bill was based upon the sameprineiples as those which governed the English Bill, an d he hoped the House would agree that it should he read a second time. cheering. The Hon. Member then sat down amidst very general e Sir R. PEEL then ro se, an d w cs received n loud Continued cheering. The Right Hon. Baronet with ded and : —Sir, the matter which we are now discussing pr°ee does a 'not merely relate to local and personal interests.—(Hear, bear)—it does not merely relate to the pecuniary interests of certain communities in Ireland. It involves considerations of the deepest importance with respect to the administration of % "‘, 1 4- L* _AAE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARSH` 1536. justice anrelculptit.eheofcitybialtcourts, considerations of main importance to o the l. ern p m !' speech c,f the Right argument-1 shall briefly Corporations in Ireland. them as; they present themselves :hfotreti co ol u n ntry, and to the general cause of good em: l elb ß es igh in t cHonunue.ctFiornieuwdithhams justly general h p a l u l s.i o t n i 0 1 only yo notice f tii the remarked that the number o y f those now existing is about yparGdoevcieeirteitdetmot::_neetice any parts of the Zlty.—( Hear.) There were ninety-five at the time of the a t , . si be report u m rt e eh n pe t o i r o ct n 0 , or fp t u h t rb e a y et i u have Cnsomo b fm e i c lsr o se m i lou e nue r dr e s d u u tov c rbi e so d i d t ee o rosn a db thesenoeutte sdicx theut 3r, Ur,. 'on, in the y ear 1800 ; b ut f rom causes w hi c h i t i s unim iNioorttta.: inquiry porations u . ith reference to two distinct periods in their his tory, first, v:11 reference to the period which intervened be tween the reign of King Henry IL and the accession of King J ame s I. ; and, secondly, with reference to the period between the accession of King James and the present time. Of the ninety-five Corporations which existed in Ireland at the time of the Legislative Union with England, eighty were created by charters granted and dated after the accession of King James the First (and in any statement I may make, in order to prevent controversy, I shall take it for granted that the statements in the report are accurate, and that it is the most authentic document I can refer to for the matters of fact.) Four claim to be governed by prescription, nine by earlier charters than those dated in the reign of King James the First, and two by Acts of Parliament. Fifteen, then, claim to be governed by Government Acts other than the charters ofJarnes the First, and eighty claim to be govermed by char ters dated shbsequent to the eceeealon (If King James the First. The right Hon : llentleMan prOposed at the commence- Molt liF his 'speech = to show that those Irish Corporations foeoded by James the First hacl been planned upon a libaral aPsl wPil-litsestpd av,:tam of government ; but he seems to have omitted that part ot his speech which he intended to apply to this subject. With respeet to those founded before the ao cession of James the First,, I think my Right tio,n, Friend 1TA , 414 fiR4 it diseiiit tq„ tiinlai,n ilAt the 'charters granted in the curlier periotl oT ttw frisk liistciry wets granted with the intention of snpperting the poplar piiinclple, but that they were deeized in that unhappy period rather for the confirma tion of English power than for the good of the people. I think the Hon. and Learned Member for DlAblill contended on a former oceasios,; tel . . time wets same of earlier date, sniff° WiiiPll Plaime4 tt:t he governed by prescription ; but I think that the evidence in support of that view is very vague end unsatisfactory, and I do not see any conclesive, evlttenee whatgygr to prove that corporAtions existed In Ire :and earlier than the dake of the grants from the British Go vernment. I find that the first charter at all was a charter by Henry thP Second, dated Dublin, in 1172, granting VI the Bristol men 411 liberties pet free postoms 14 the port of Dublin which they then enjoyed in the port of Bristol. I admit 014 P OP Gar* charters had not the names of the members o' the PnrAfir4tP betty ; but that theft was another form of election. But it appears, also, that at a very early period the right to claim admittance became the subject of restriction as the value of the privilege increased, and it does not appetr that earlier than ,lamps I, irkhahhialloy was ever oonsiuore4 a si4f4cierit plaitin for admittance into the cor poration, Then we come to the charters granted in the reign of James I. The Right Hen : gentleman seems to eontend that they were not, in point of fact, intended to maintain and preserve Protestant ascendancy. My impression certainly was, from some acquaintance with Irish history, that the esta blishment and objects of gorpergiellS at that epoch were mainly for the support of Protestant interests.-s( Hear.) A n d, to remove all doubt on that point, I shall hog to refer to an an thority more recent than that of Sir John Davies—that of Jas. Moody and David Pigott, the Commissioners who inquired into the Corpewation of Londonderry, who give an account of the establishment of Corporations by James I, much more in accordance with my own view. They say that in 1613 the Irish Parliament was assembled, after a lapse of several years, and that the creation of the forty Corporations constituted by James 1., before 1613, appears plainly to have been to support the interests of the Crown, and to give to the householders ' and free burgesses of the Corporations, or rather to the owners of the soil, [Urea influence and power in the Legislature. They were in fact close boroughs, exclusively Protestant, andsending into Parliament a large body of new Members, whose presence James required to control the party that were adverse to him. It is for the House to see, on the showing of these Commissioners, whether my view of them, namely, that they were intended to be close boroughs, and for the support of Protestant interests—is not borne out by the facts. But, Sir, the preamble of this Bill certainly as sumes that these Corporations were all formed originally on some enlightened principles of government, for it recites that certain corporations bad been constituted in Ireland with the intent that the same might remain yell regulated and quietly conducted. Now, if this preamble had excepted the forty bo roughs of James the First, saying that these were originally intended for the support of the Protestant interests, I think that it would have approached nearer to the truth than by as suming that the corporations in question were originated on enlightened principles of government. Sir, the truth is, that this Bill (substitute any system you please) does amount to a complete and unqualified destruction of the ancient corporate bodies in Ireland.—( Hear.) I confess that it does seem to me that the Right Hon. Gentleman, presenting a Bill to the House that declares all laws, statutes, privileges, rules, orders, and instructions now in force in the several boroughs enume rated in schedules A, B, and C, are inconsistent with, and contrary to, the provisions of this Act, and are repealed and annulled thereby—it dots seem to me, I say, that for a gentle man who presents such a Bill, gravely to get up, and pretend a holy reverence for ancient corporations, and a horror at De structives, while he is accomplishing their destruction—(Hear) —for, remembering the statutes of James, he has still his . own Act, which abolishes all statutes, laws, privileges, rules, orders, and instructions now in force—for him, I say, to pretend a reverence for antiquity, and an abhorrence of the unheeding hands which contemplate the destruction of the ancient institutions he alludes to, does appear to me to savour some what mere of affectation than of truth.—( Hear, hear.) The Bill, Sir, opera this most important question—can we maintain the system as it exists ; or, if we cannot, shall an attempt he spade partially-to reform it ? Shall we extinguish it altoge ther, substituting the plan of the Right Hon, Gentieman ; or, after this extilu;sien, what provision shall we make for the per formance of those municipal duties which seem to have been forgotten ? These considerations are opened bj the Bill of the-Right Hon. Gentleman. Now, for myself, I affirm to the House that f cannot expect to maintain the Corporate system as it is, nor can I advise, by a partial alteration, that a system shall be propped up which seems to me to be bad.i--- (Hoar, hear.) If you enlarge the circle of the freemen, and cure some of the evils, still you would not overcome some of the grave objections which apply to even the modified conti nuance of the system. I do admit that a system which pre sents such a limited number as 18,000 Members of Corpo rations out of a borough population of 800,000 or 900,000 is in itself a bad one ; but more particularly when I find that the members of these corporations are almost entirely of one religious persuasion, it aggravates the objection. The mixing up of the administration of justice with party feeling does, even if that administration be perfectly pure, create a suspieLse against justice which is almost as fatal as the very existence of kiestice would be. It will be evident then, that with many of the oi4eations of the Right Hon, Gentleman I entirely concur. There is wioth s er objection which ho has made se the present system, on the score of the misapplication of corporate funds. Now lam as unwilling as be can be to connect the party to which I belong with the vindication of . the abuses of corporations. If I assume the facts stated to be tsise—and I have not the means of ascertaining by docu ments whether those facts are well founded or not—but if they arc true, I have no hesitation in at once saying that the actual abuses of those funds ought to he corrected, and all ap prehension of their recurrence in future ptit an end to. I have not one word to say against the fair conclusion to be drawn from the argument of my Right Honourable Friend, founded on the misapplication of corporate funds. Mrown impres,:ion is, that the original intentions of the granters of these properties must have been to devote them to the pur. poses of the public, and not to the purposes of private indi viduals. But I have no hesitation in saying that on another ground I cannot support the system of the corporations in Ireland ab at present constituted ; and that is, that I consider it to be inconsistent with the fair legislative prin ciple of the act of 1829. f think that the intention of that Act was to establish as regards civil offices a perfect equality between all classes of his Majesty's subjects.—( Cheers.) I think that the ohjeat of that act was to make the civil worth of the subject the test of his political qualification, and not his religious opinions ; and therefore that if there be any system wirich deprives the Roman Catholic of free and fair access to 'the privflazes of the corporations, while at the same time it confers those t wiyileges on his Protestant fellow-countrymen, suer , .7 . system ought to be put an end to. Sir, en these the t ,, - : I grounds on which this measure is propo se d to grounds, introduced,u ;Dust, I am bound to say, conclude th a t t h e nds , change proposed to b e Jude in the present corporation system of Ireland is riot a wise one,--( Cheers.) The next considera tion to which I am led is, admiittua - the necessity for altera tion, as to what plan we should prepese for remedying the evils of the present system, In the first place, sir, I shall take into consideration the plan proposed by the Right Hon. G en , demolition of for fifty sf tleman—by his Majesty's Governmont ; and al t l o l de c a a i n fa s i a rl y y b is y , that should I fall into mistake it wilt net be h i a n s te m l i tio e n o a r l, th o g r proceed from any desire whatever on my part to misrepresent the f d franchise of 5/. In measuret he statementswmeasure.h ich he ehAibfctahes After, , I n i t e rso ß idr i u g , ehet providing n Hon. G y w e t n bfhi stuyelbrenmitashmaene Right our Gen tlemantt existingh o e wnsteor, 4se7t s _ c o ri . r wp p rh o ei r ve a hi t d i o ei ts n corporations, ipvetehasiealßi Bill I tia o gna f t g i ve s a corporation to Middleton, the pepu_ point of I p at4 op , u fo la r ti i o t n it does not proceed upcol the T2Q: basis ce: :no inhabi tant aht t bh l a i iii e .si • and to Belturbut, which contains a poonlation of no more than lotion existing which amounts only to 2,034 inhabitant householders, 2,326 inhabitant householders. In these g g o t , consistßili establishes o f n Mayor thantntdbefognorelterindmererunteno! and eac h twelve Corp although the population of neither 'pixel) tent householders.—( Hear, bear.) The i 3 iii also gives, Sir, so the Lord Lieutenant a power specially to grant a p qrprira. a any town under certain circum stances, without refe rence to i the number of the population ; an d thi s I must call it, most ex t ra ordinary pscesision, like most of the others which this Bill contains, varies not ontiy fi verd s„ but in many other m ess important respects, from the proysssona oil :4 0 g nolisb Bill.-4 Hi eat,' hear') The English Bill provides that_ ir t h e major part of the inlitabitaysts of a town petition the Kit 4 to give them a Corporatism, his ltiajesty, if he shall think fit, of Itip pro may s p ch o n ar di te n r g , and pri n t c: b isi, e 1 . rish 4 ui p , ill ir, ;3:y .1,,,,i r .• pro y number, vm seededi s i a y o n g r a i ()n o n t I t th h i im ori;i4 nglish Az ill:--=- of the inhabitants of a ow 11„1 fiplipd ma Petition the to which I have alluded, as ' e - Lord Lieutenant, and even two ,Or l'ir,ee of them may evoke e gas respect. t \ h v e by p , ow th er is ve is ste a d dioirethete Kdeinpagr' (Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman says that the Abject stutepfrreomspottabtiseveci of the Government is by meal ("his - Bill to valt one uniform system into operation in - all the Corporate towns in Ireland. Be it so, but I should like to know where is the necessity for encumbering towns like the two which I have selected, towns the population of which do not greatly exceed 2,000, with such a ponderous means of managing their domestic concerns as those which this Bill proposes?—(Loud cheers.) There are 126 towns which will be entitled to incorporation under this Bill ; but if any other town having 1,000 inhabitant householders wishes for a charter, the Lord Lieutenant is to be at liberty to incorporate it. Sir, according to this Bill, each Corporation is to be so constituted as to have the power of making its own by-laws for its own rule and good government. These by-laws are required to have the sanction of the Lord Lieutenant ; but there does not appear to be any provision in 'the Bill that they are not to be at variance with the law of the land. It is important that they should be consistent with the law of the land; but on this point the Bill is wholly silent. I am quite ready to admit that there is no necessity that the by laws of each Corporation should be in exact conformity with those of the others. On the contrary, I think they m:y have different by-laws, and that offences against those by-laws may be tried before the corporation justices. At present, in each town the Mayor is a justice of the Peace for the borough as well as a county Magistrate, and one of the complaints of the report is. that the Justices are wholly independent of the con troul of the Town Council. Sir, by the Bill the Corporate Justices will be wholly independent of the Lord Lieutenant, inasmuch as they will hold their offices without his sanction. —(Hear, hear.) When I say this I think lam accurately describing the Bill. In those towns which are counties of cities, the Town Council, it is proposed, shall have the election of sheriffs placed in their hands. The Right Hon. Gentleman says, that the Lord Lieutenant will still have power to grant to each borough a separate commission of the peace. That reight do in England, but it will not in Ireland. —( Hear. ) of A the Townseparatecommis sion Council ; b is only this I nlyto be must gr say is antedon m t o h s e t d im is pp e r r u eti e o r n , for surely the Lord Lieutenant has better moans of judging whether such a course be necessary than the Town Council can possibly have.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In those towns to which a separate commission of the peace might be granted, you should recollect that the Town-clerk, who is also to be Clerk of the Peace, and the Sheriff, are to be elected by the Town Council, It will, of course, be the duty of these parties-to summon juries in 'the corporate towns with which they are connected, and, that being the case, I shall, Sir, attempt at least to show that this Bill, even if established will not conduce much to the impartial administration of public justice, or a wholesome state of municipal government. Sir, I shall first take the administration of justice. The Right Hon. Gent. asks—" Where is the man who will get up and say that the same principles should not be extended to Ireland which have been applied to England and Scotland ?" but he has failed to show that the particular systems existing in Eng land and Scotland would conduce to impartiality, would be satisfactory, or in any way tend to increase public confidence in those functionaries by whom the law is administered in Ireland. ( Cheers.) Sir, against any such conclusion I shall cite the authority of the Right Hon. Gent. himself: Now, what did the Right Hon. Gent. say.? Why, that if he thought the effect of this measure would be to transfer power from one party into the hands of another he would be found is the ranks of its most determined and active opponents. By this declaration he threw away the whole of his argument of analogy, for must he not well know that the devolution of political power rests upon grounds perfectly distinct from the administration of justice.—(Cheers.) But I will try your principles of Municipal Reform. Let us look to them as far as relates to the administration of justice—so far as relates to the efficiency of the civil power by the administration of the police—and so far as relates to the ma nagement of the corporate bodies themselves. I shall, Sir, in the first place, take the administration of justice. The Right Hon. Gentleman asserts that the imperfections in the adminis tration of justice, and the great dissatisfaction and excitement concurrently arising out of the exclusive nature of the govern ment of Corporations, will all be done away with by introdu cing a system of popular election. Popular election, he says, will remove all the evils of the system ; but although I admit that popular election may operate as a check upon a great va riety of abuses, I deny that the administration of justice, should be left to depend upon any such principle, or that po pular choice in such a matter would be productive of anything like satisfaction to the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) Sir, under this Bill there were to be three classes of Corporations. In towns which are counties of cities the Sheriff is to be elec ted by the town council, and in other corporate towns the same body are to have the election of the clerks of the peace. In both these instances these are the parties on whom the sum moning of juries—grand and petit juries—is to devolve, while the other corporate towns are to be subject to the same law which is applicable to counties where the juries are summoned by the sheriff. In the last-mentioned instance there is to be no distinction in this respect between corporate towns and towns which are not corporate. Let us, however, look to the re port, and see whether the same arguments of corruption which have been used against the officers of the old Corporations, may not equally apply to the new. The Report says—" That the Sheriffs appointed by the Municipal Corporations possess and exercise important functions in reference to the admini stration of justice, both civil and criminal ;" and that " a large proportion, frequently the majority, of the Grand Jurors is empannelled from the members of the governing corporate bodies—an arrangement which, as these bodies are at pre sent constituted, practically vests and preserves in limited cor porate Councils the extensive powers of local taxation given by law to the Grand Juries." This, then, being an imper fection that is the groundwork of all complaints, will it, I should like to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman, be re medied by making the corporate sheriff the object of popular election ? Why, Sir, what would the consequence of such a system be ? Would you not have those towns in a state of dis cord and confusion, arising out of religious difference and po litical animosity, during the period of the annual elections of the mayor and the other corporate officers ? The registration, too, would occasion fresh scenes of excitement and disorder, and thus the whole year might be spent in getting ready for the proceedings of a popular election. (Cheers, and " No, no.") Even after this election new scenes of discord would arise ; and if that were the case, could any one believe that, in a town convulsed in the way I have described, justice can be adminis tered with anything like satisfaction ? For my part, Sir, I think not, and for this simple reason I disapprove of this part of the measure.—(Cheers.) Oh, but the Right Hon. Gen tleman says, the change he proposes would put an end to the intimate connection which at present exists between corpora tions and Grand Juries. Would it ? Popular centroul may be very well in some things, but as the sheriff, under the new sys tern, would be elected by the town council, I can see no good reason why you should 'disturb the connection subsisting be tween the corporations and the Grand Juries. Sir, the Right Hon. Gent. says that political opinion should not be a ground of challenge; but I should like to know whether his Bill will ren der all Grand Juries hereafter free from political bias, espe cially when their return must depend more upon their being partisans than on account of their impartiality. Surely, if a sheriff returns only men of his own political opinions, that ought to be a ground of disqualification.—( Cheers.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman has brought forward the case of the fisher men of Limerick. These fishermen, he says, infringed the rights of the Corporation of that town ; homicides were in consequence committed, and the Jury, acting with a view to the maintenance of the corporate rights, actually acquitted the officers of the Corporation, and convicted the fishe rmen ; but will he tell me how this Bill takes away corporate rights, or interferes beneficially with the administration of justice ? If it does not do this, I should like to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman what security it gives against the perversion of justice of which he complains ?—( Loud cheers.) So much, then, for the administration of justice. Now, Sir, I will tell the House what my proposal is, and for that purpose I will take the case of counties, of cities, and towns. I say, at once, that I should place the nomination of the sheriffs for such places in the same hands in which the nomination of sheriffs of counties at present rests. The veto on the nomi nation of sheriffs proposed to be given to the Lord Lieu tenant under this Bill is a most clumsy affair. It is, in fact, dividing the responsibility between the mayor and the Lord Lieutenant, and, in short, precluding the Lord Lieutenant from all interference, unless, indeed, where a man has been guilty of some gross offence or violation of political opinion.—( Loud cheers.) Is it not obvious that such a state 'of things might bring the Lord Lieutenant and the Town Council into most disagreeable conflict ? The better way, I do submit, would be to devolve the appointment altogether upon the Lord Lieutenant, In whom the adminiss tratiun of justice should alone s b u e ch ve in st s e p d e . cto:els ß ea u an t odl i n f rneis t s h itd e rianta lt io i mu gh ais, t Hon. Gentleman is of a different opinion why does be not ap ply his own principle with respect to the nomination of dis trict Judges ?—( Cheers.) Let us now take the administra tion of the civil power in the constitution of the pollee. I presume the Right Hon. Gentleman will repeat his defiance— will ask whether " any man would get up and say that the same principles which governed the 'police of England and Scotland should not also be made applicable to the police of Ireland, and that unless that were done the people of Ireland would not only be insulted, but would have impartial justice denied to them.—( Cheers.) If he does, here is my answer. What Las the Right Hon. Gentleman done during the pre sent session? Why, he ha; brought in a which provides for the consolidation of the whole laws relating to the con stabulary force of Ireland ; which Bill is not only at va riance with that which he now represents as sound in policy, but in direct contravention of his own acts, which prove that he is at all events jealous of the local authorities so powersharece, oi thatt e ‘v o f yhoaii I t usto h te!aaeoprivie: police iaecalrn iebigseattlfeei monntr far as the police are cioneerned.—(Cheers.) By this f Bill it is clear that the municipal authorities are not butto have tbat aand in pgt tishethhisandasgaoinfstthetheLomrdagListierautteesnan. which to create! Doe; It net go the length o b f so l tl t sayingeyou power couldover the The Bill to police t c h o e n ifirdreeicinnomtthhineeemnilaaontriddo,nthsh,ieebriueittfeonvrea.estttht:Litey(oacahweeilrls, ) which abwby b i i et e hci h i alludesblyßtißill in inapt h ph a oe s i n b ilt u arn t ned j n u s t s been o t orf th e i o n r t d e d Lieutenant, Rvet 'Ypo,wtheor is eel_ was necessary to insure the preservation of the peace is placed gistrates to mauve the unity of the aygtem. Now, sir, I say, if the principle of this Bill be good, why establish in 126 towns a separate police, not only to be differently paid, but appointed by different persons, as for instance the Watch Committee?— • tc(ll°Canhniceeetristae.ot°l t ' o i t i t l e t t 4 11 1 ; ef t ' o s e e r l d l t -fb , b l. :a t t i nh a t d b et e hn l r ! w i a l 4 r ; i c ik t. u rPa : ° l ri l:ina h b ‘ e i v 6 fo e ll r s e :l t s b li o e in m n s satisfactorily e a c Lu t . y r. proved , , two plans, one of wit!C 4 t 'a 0 utter n riunP t h m eikeers.) exclude, Py the ,ight on. Cientie an t s oWn'ghoWini, from' t h e Objects of ihe"munic al giordrnment - What' he 'Proposes, the administration of the laW arid the charge of the' police, for with respect to thieso matter's the toWe councils are to have neither interference nor contrcul.— , /jeer, heir.) With respect tc the presentations by the Grand Aides, the Might '‘•; ft iv ian Gentleman's argument was anything but convinc ing. et ok the instance of Cork. The cess in the county of Cork, he says, is only 10d. per acre, whereas in the county of the city, which is within the jurisdiction of the Corporation, it amounts to ss. or 6i. an acre, and this fact, he adds, has created very great dissatisfaction. But what effect hid Bill will have in removing such grievance I am at a loss to conjec ture. The Mayor, Town Clerk, and Treasurer are to be paid out of the borough funds. The Town Councils are to be em powered to apportion, not only their salaries, but those of the other officers by whom the Act is to be carried into execution. Here then is copious patruna , .!.e carved out for his Majesty's Ministers, and at no inconsiderable expence.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman has alluded to . Corponition property, and says what is meant to be done with it. Now that is a sub ject which I too have considered. The Corporation property of Ireland is by no means extensive, the total amount being, I believe, somewhere about 61,3971., and the present expense 57,2791. The debts upon this property were about 130,000/. If we deduct that which belongs to the Corporation of Dublin, the amount of the other Corporation property of Ireland does not exceed 33,000/. per annum, while the expenses are 27,0001., and the debts 10,000/.' This was the amount of the Corporation property of Ireland, exclusive of Dublin, and it consisted of lands and tolls. By this Bill you vest the amount of the existing tolls in the Corporation Board ; but, and very properly I admit, you deprive them of all power over those tolls where they are affected by debts.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Under the provisions of the present Bill you propose to vest the management of the tolls in the Corporations. It appears to me that it would be much better and much more conducive to the advantage of the public that you • should, on the dissolu tion of the present Corporations, abolish tolls altogether. With respect to the management of the tolls for the fresent, it would be a convenient course that at the dissolution of the present Corporations their management should be placed in the hands of a Commission, to be appointed by Parliament; that it should be the duty of this Commission to inquire into the right of the tolls held by individuals ; what claims such in dividnals might have to compensation ; and that they should be instructed to lay before Parliament their report upon this subject. But vi ith respect to the right of tolls held by Cor porations, I think that their abolition, where it could be effected without inconvenience, would materially tend to improve the commerce and extend the trade of the city or tom - I,in which the abolition might take place. Now let me enliven the te diousness of a debate of this kind by reading for you an account of the mode in which these tolls are collected in [reland, as given in # portion of the evidence taken before the Commissioners.—Ole Right Honourable. Baronet pro ceeded to read from a paper which he held in his hand an account of the mariner in which the toll collectors proceed to exact the tolls. It was to this effect : —The toll collector stands at the gap or place of entrance and exit to the fair or market. A book or Bible is placed at the gap or at the ditch side near the gap. Each particular person who passes through the gap in charge of cattle is asked by the toll collector and his assistant to clear the cattle, that is to declare that the cattle have not been sold. If the cattle have not been sold, the person in charge of them touches the book, which is considered equivalent to an oath. Sometimes, however, in spite of the resistance of the toll collector, the persons in charge of the cattle force them through the gap, and escape without having either paid the toll or touched the book. ]—( Laughter. ) On the part of the Corporations, for the sake of extending their utility, and for the general benefit of the public, it is exceed ingly desirable that these tolls should be put an end to. I am quite convinced that there is no arrangement which you could make respecting this part of your measure which would be more satisfactory to the public, or more likely to conduce to the very considerable advantage of those places in which the tolls are now collected. If it be found that the effect of the abolition of these tolls be to improve the commerce of the place, to relieve industry from any injurious pressure, and, by removing impediments to intercourse, to attract and increase beneficial intercourse with those places, I say, then, by all means put an end to them. —( Cheers.) If individual rights stand in the way of effecting these improvements I think that it would be an excellent ap plication of any surplus of the corporation property which could be spared from the general municipal purposes to pur chase those individual rights, and facilitate the concession of advantage and benefit to the public.—( Cheers.) If. a surplus of the corporation funds be ascertained to exist, such surplus ought to be applied to some purposes connected with the inte rests of the town, or city, or locality, where such funds may exist. I would, however, as I have already suggested, vest this property ad interim in the hands of Commissioners, to be appointed by the Crown. To. those Commissioners I would give the power to take an extensive view of the character, the institution, and the application of this property, and I would afford these Commissioners the fullest facilities to enable them to report fully to Parliament. In cases where portions of this property were placed under engagements for debt, it would, df course, be necessary so to proceed as that those engagements should not be interfered with, but I would cer tainly altogether remit those tolls in all cases where no en gagements exist.—( Hear, hear.) I would• not contemplate that this Commission should exist as a permanent Com mission. I would merely appoint such Commission ad interim, until a final disposition of these funds should be determined on by Parliament. Now, in adverting to the Commission the appointment of which I have suggested, I think that it is a great matter of doubt whether these Commissioners would not be able to recover more of the pro perty, and whether they would not act as effectually for its se curity as any town council that may possibly exist under the provisions of the nature you propose.—(Cheers.) Now with respect to the charge of the police and the administration of justice, I certainly do not concur with you in the propriety of giving this, in the several municipalities, to the town councils. I certainly cannot concur with you in the expediency or the propriety of re-establishing a power of this description in the hands of the Councils. I never can persuade myself that it can be conducive to the efficacy of the civil power that it should be placed under the management of particular and local bodies. I certainly think that the Crown is the fittest to select those who may be chosen to administer the civil power, and in whose charge the administration of the police is to rest. lam perfectly prepared to go with you in the'rema aa l of all abuses. No person is more ready to conch; in the correction of all abuses to the fullest extent, and to promote all reforms and improvements that I conceive to be beneficial. —((;heers.) I am willing that you should intrust to the town councils anything connected with the l oca l Govern ment, without any interference with that portion of the civil power which is more properly placed under the direct control of the general Executive of the country.—(Hear.) I know that there was a Bill which was represented to be exceedingly popular in Ireland—the Right Hon. Gentleman cpposite seems to anticipate what lam going to say—l know that there was a Bill proposed some time ago, in which the Right Hon. Gen tleman opposite—(being unable to see the Treasury Bench we did not perceive to whom the Right Hon. Baronet at the time adverted)—had embodied some plan for the abolition of tolls. (Hear.) The preamble of that Bill recited that the abolition of tolls would be of great advantage to the prosperity and tranquillity of the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman re collects the Bill to which I allude. If the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman be satisfactory to hi t o wn min d, he certaialy must feel that it is unwise th a t th ere s h ould be a rest;. inte rest in all corporate property. Yet the presen's Bill pro poses, notwithstandieg all the admitted a d vantage o f t h e abo lition of corporate tolls, to vest these tolls in the new Cor porations, The Right Hon. Gentittnan knows that there is all Act In operation in Ireland sit the present time, which is esteemed a very popular enactment, aeas Which is based upon the principle of popular election. 'The Right Hon. Gentle man has admitted than any elections that have taken place un der this Act have been totally free from all political excite ment, and all disturbance from party feeling. The Right Hon. Gentleman has fairly described the operation and the proviSions of this Bill, but he has omitted to mention one'par tieular. It is this, namely, that if any twenty-one hothebold era inhabiting houses of 201. a year annual value shall agree to apply for the extention of this Act to the town where they reside, directions shall be issued by the Lord Lieutenant for a meeting of the inhabitants to decide upon the propriety of adopting this Act. At this meeting all inhabitant household ers of 51. and upwards shall have a right to vote, and the re sult to be decided by the majority. In case the Act be adopted, Commissioners to carry the provisions of the Act into operation arc to be appointed by the election of the ma jority of those qualified to vote. These Commissioners no', to be less in slumber than ten, nor more than tv;enty two, slidto continue in nlllee for three years. These Commissioners have sins power of appointing a treasurer, clerks, and other officers, but the Act gives them no ju dicial powers whatever. Any penalties may he recovered before , a Magistrate of the town or county ; but in this re spect the Commissioners have no power whatever. They Eave not in any way the slightest power or connecti on i n any s h ape with the administration of justice. It gives to them simply the power of providing for the watching and cleansing of the town, The Bill of the Noble Lord goes to supersede this Act, and it entirely takes the watching and lighting out of the hands of those appointed under its provi,iions. The Bill of the Noble Lord provides that all this shall in future be per formed under some general and equal principle. To this I would not altogether object, unless in towns where an ade quate provision for these purposes already existed ; but cer tainly in towns where you find effectual provisions for these purposes, and which effectually provide for the expenses which these purposes necessarily demand, I think it unreasonable to interfere or place these localities under additional and unne cessary expense. Now, with respect to this provision for the establishment of the police foace, I certainly think that there you ought to esjablish a force which will be perfectly uniform in its system, and which will be established upon a general and conaistent principle. Who not do as you have done here ? Does the Right Honourable Gentleman mean to say that the police force which you appoint to preserve the peace by day is not sufficient to perform the duties of watching by night Hear ; hear, hear.) This was exactly what we did in Landon and Westminster. We made the same force answer both objects, and we found the experiment to be at tended with the most eminent success. Another Bill of a similar description has been proposed for Dublin, and it has been found expedient to assimilate the police force there to the police %see here, and to make the same force 404ervient to the purposes of discharging the duties of a day and a night police. In this way you . giv,s Vac, ioree consistency, and in crease its utility n 4 Kimet - icy. Now, let the ask if this sys tem vhi9,ll i have described be fousd beneficial in its sikia.xat'sen for' London and Dublin, why should it not l ealually so for Belturbut and Middl e t on ? TIAQ lad, V. ll ic propose I will very briefly recapitulate 7, think i have already sufficiently in dicated pliticiple on' which it is founded. As I have said befticado not propose to vindicate the existing core,or,ate sys tem. With respect to the existing' tCRA cosanoils , do think that if they are to be pttai cridtt9, it is not desirable that oth er tovin 'ocktinekis should be eattibliiatied. In the present stat e o f Ireland, tVink woo, 4be most prej,ndicia t l to allow any in terferetice with the a ( chninistration of justice to bodies chosen by the election provided for under this Bill, I think that the v4V %. ohe t corporate property ought in all cases to be applied to local purposes, in so far as that it may be made to Contribute t bu utmost in promoting the general benefit of the locality ; have already stated that I do not think it necessary or e . xps dient that the administration of that property should ba placed in the h an d s o f a to w n coun c il. Instead of placing the election elec tion of civil Magistrates upon the principle of popular in the counties o f cities and counties of towns, I would e nable as the Crown to appoint those Magistrates in the same way Y her t the Crown app o ints Sheriffs in counties. I would altoge abolish Courts of minor jurisdiction of the description of Manor Courts, Caurts Leet, Seneschal Courts, and all Cou rts . of similar minor jurisdiction. Whilst I would do this I wo uld , propose to extend the jurisdiction of the Assistant Barristers' Court so as to a great extent increase the efficiency of that species of tribunal. In counties of towns I would maintat the administration of the law as it exists. I would permit the continuance of Recorders upon the same principle as the As sistant Barristers' Court. I would also propose to establish in the different towns a Court for the recovery of small debt!, which I am of opinion would be gladly hailed by persons in trade and by persons generally resident in the Corporate town! , and which would be found highly convenient and beneficial• Why, then, not apply your experience of the advantage of such a; species of jurisdiction as I have mentioned to the improvement your Bill ? Now, with reference to the Bill for the extension of the Assistant Barristers' Court, an attempt was mate to im prove the constitution of that Court. Why not e mploy a jurisdiction of a similar character under the provisions o f the present measure ? I have more than once stated that lam favourable to the removal of every inferior tribunal, assuming that its functions would be better administered by the highe r tribunal; but if, by any amended system, you coLld give to the inhabitants of the large towns at least some easy mean' of recovering small debts, you would be conferring upon them a very great and satisfactory benefit. After some further ob servations, the Right Hon. Baronet continued—l am aware that in any plan of this nature a great number of minor de tails arc necessary. lam aware that some members o f cor porations fill the offices of trustees of markets and superin tendents, and Commissioners for the management and reel" lotion of harbours, and other similar objects. These, however' are matters so entirely of minor detail, that I do not purpose to enter upon them now. However, there is no serious dittl" culty in the adjustment of these minor details. The House cannot hare sufficient experience of those matters to render it, ' expedient to enter into any discussion of them up on a secant' reading of the Bill. There are some important privileges under this Bill which are different from those which are given under the English Bill. This Bill provides that the common counA appointed under this Act shall have the power to inspect all accounts, books, vouchers, papers, documents, &e., relating V ) the accounts of Commissioners, trustees, or other bodies , boards, or persons, holding any office connected witia the re gulation of the corporation or the borough, or any part thereof, or the port or harbour thereof, and so on ; and that all do; cements shall be open to the inspection of the said council' and it gives a summary jurisdiction to the town councils le cases where this power is not sufficiently obeyed. The re port of the Commissioners on which this measure is founded, , states that the case of the commercial interests and the gene ral interests of a town or borough will properly belong to a town council, and that those duties which are now exer cised by voluntary associations for the protection of particula r interests will naturally devolve upon the town councils. Note in many places the commercial interests are at present. O r the most part, watched over by voluntary association" , such as Chambers of Commerce. In. certain case s, too, the functions of the Harbour Commissioners will, of course" devolve upon the town councils. Now, with respect to the duties at present performed by these voluntary association' , experience is necessary to enable those duties to b e performed with advantage. These voluntary associa tions are, of course, formed to' watch over par t ' . cular interests. In each case the knowledge of the P e " culiar interests of a particular class is necessary for th e purposes of discharging the duties of the Harbour Commis' sioners. Those are generally chosen who have the most expo' rience of the shipping interest, and so in all other similar e ases; and it certainly appears most objectionable that the care of the interests of those parties should be taken out of their ort e hands and placed at the disposal of the town council. It s een , ' to me most strange and irreconcilable to any sound princip le that the exercise of function s connecte d w i t h commerce 8 1101 111 ' be taken from those interested, and placed in the hands of $ town council elected under the provisions of this Dill. I h ave stated the objections that I e nt er t a i n to t hi s measure. I hav e , t stated that I differ fr om y ou w i t h respect to the appo i nt ment of town councils. I differ from you with respect to placing the administration of justice under the jurisdiction of thes e separate bodies. I differ from you with respect to placing th e police under the controul o f th ese b o di es . I h ave propo sed plan totally exempt from th ose o bj ect i ons , an d certa i n l y c alcite lated to render the administration of justice much more Oti s " factory. I admit that we are bound to apply to the Govern"; ment of Ireland, in all respects, the principle of perfect are; complete civil equality. I admit th a t th e operat i on o f f t bs principle of civil equality sh ou ld a l wa y s exten d to t h e profes sors of all religious creeds in that country without di s tinction; I am ready to say, that before the law, all parties and cree d are equal. I think that the administration of justice should e'" tend equally to all persons ; but I think that the administr?- tration of justice will neither be improved nor facilitated by the measure you propose. Our objection is not to assitaila7 the system in Ireland with that of England—but our olAject 10 to ascertain on what principle equal privileges and e0 . ,,a1 law° can be most effectually and successfully applied.—( continued cheering.) However you may theoris, _ w hatever a a l w e s— fre y et o . u — s ( h G ou re ld at see that ) y o u I e f a rr o y tt t you may say of your theoretic principle of equal' r i g hts an p ceg ra u :t i i e l P t ? a mo de of election that shall give anti a preponderance to one Pa'Y' effectually exclude the other, call you that equal law ? D° Y -tt carry out your principle of placing ad men equal if you esta; blish a mode of election that shall tend to give all influenee it t a one party, to the complete prejudice of the other.—(L o ' cheers.) Ido not put the question upon any religious gil l , whatever. If the effect of your measures be to exclude Protestants, not as Protestants, but as politicians--if you eft: `f: tually give the predominance to one party, and place the adr °l l nistration of justice in the hands of that dominant r . 'srtY": tit care not what name you give the principle that does this- --41 . 0 if it be calculated to work injustice, and prejudice the inte;,, of one party, whilst it advances the other, it is not a pr' n" of equal justice, arid equal law.—(Loud cheering:li The necessary effect of elections on the principle o f this 13 ; l a a must be to produce a continual recurrence of angry pol i t. t ' s c he strife. One party will be in constant contention with the other, other, and the people will be exposed to a state of constant fle_.t pernicious excitement. I care not 17 whom this exeitenle;. is administered, whether by landlord., by Priest, or by clat g gogue, or any other description o t : persons. If I see You bri t - ty forward a measure calculated to inflict injury upon one Pa' a on the pretence of doing je.atice to all, I have aright to clonal, that you shall not inflict that injury. Will airy one attempt eit say that in the election of the members of a Town CO'° if ou d party an .',l political motives will not interfere ?—( Cheers.) A establish a b it; c :121:10 they do interfere--if elections take place, not with regi" - no s to religious but with reference to political opinions—wil l the evil be e s g rea t ; an d i s i t r i g h t t h at you s h ou ld es t a blisp i a , system liable t o ev il s o f t hi s pern i c i ous c h aracter ? N o w, 1 .00 it be denied th a t th e mun i c i pa l e l ect i ons w hi c h h ave ta' place in Ungland have been influenced by strong political an f party feeling? On this subject I will quote the expression! a very distinguished Member of this House, and a very Il e authority on a subj ect o f t hi s nature. O n t h e fi rst d ay of t ,j session the Ho n . a nd L earne d M em b er for Du bli n a lludt a to the elections of Municipal Town Councils which l' s ., taken place in England in these terms :—" The sore is fest e l l io ing in your heart s . Y ou now regret t h e v i ctories wh i c h t Reformers have gained in the elections of the Town COn e t oils that have taken pl ace i n E ng l an d . You know tb l a these Town Councils will become excellent normal sat e° of agitation."--(" Hear," and cheers from the Oppositioe', Now, if this descripti on g i ven by the Hon. Member be tr rt as respects the ele c ti ons i n Engle nd, is it at all unlikely ~e the Corporations in Ireland rwill be similar in all these iz o spects ?—( Ch eers .) The Right Hon. Baronet proceed:l lo read the passage more fully ; it was to this effect e , English people have._ received an instalment of popular reP r o sentatiort in their Corporation Reform, and right well b a , oo they used it. Y ou h ave reason to re e ret t h e res ult; ) the 'eel the sore festeri ng i n your h earts ." And, referring t e , 00 return of a majority o f R e f ormers i u th e l a t e e l ec tions 01 , , e Corporations, the ex p ress i on was Every one of town councils will become normal schools of agitation.,bG that be true with respect to Engl a nd, s o y o u thi n k it will °t, ri false with r es p ec t to I re l an d ?—(Ch eers .) H ave %se t o then, a right to protest against this measure, which got' s o f place the administration of justice and the superintentlenc e ,.„ the civil power of the country into such hands as the?' • f (Loud cheers.) Id o n o t b e li eve i n t h e beneficial tent ) ell t ; a measure which w ill on ly g i ve r i se to more scenes of s'l tion.—_( Loud cheers.) We concede to you the full justic,ssi your dema n d f or equa l rights and equal privile ge s. NS T( " g I that there s h ou ld b e no di st i nct i on and this is what I den" on the part o f th ose i n whose behalf I speak. I think t ) their right s an d p r i v il eges s h ou ld be proteeted.--(Pheew In compliance with the opinions of Parliament, and in 'l t o once to the wishes a n d i n an ti c ip a ti on o f t h e comman ds 0' re , Crown, those connected with associations which were °P r of tented as likely to interfere with the harmo n y an d good n aOf of society, dissol v ed th ose a ssoc i a ti ons , an d, a t t h e bazar on' c considerable sacrifices, recommended a simil ar co urse of tre e duct to men who, unable to reason and to discover th e ne r• motives of those by whom this advice was g i ven , mi,,eb t '4,illl haps, look upon those from whom th a t a d v i ce p ro ceeded t his jealousy and alienation. At the risk of such sacrifices i o e' advice was given, and those persons were recommended to and mediately retire from all connexion with these association s, , s s to dissolve them.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) Thi l i tai n the course which good subjects, an x i ous an d w illi ng t o noa f . l e is it the laws, and to bow to the first authority of the Crowe , 1 . 15 their duty to pursue. We now call upon you to Wore equal laws and equal rights. We call upon you not te r , / rt 7 upon us a measure which must inevitably produce the very to suit, which the Right Hon. Gentleman professes so i ne- s clw deprecate, namely, the ascendancy of one party, and the e t iy-- - sion of another.--(Loud (sheering.) We ask you earn.e . s e ,.to we ask you with cor,fidenee in your feelings of justit d i t ion consider this measure with reference to the peculiar coll. ,„,es - of Trebel, and with reference to the peculiar state 9' root pidiy, and the peculiar circumstances of society, in r c oo country.—(Cheers.) If you have any regard to 3 7 °,% coo' doctrines, if—_,and I do not sec how you can avoid t° odu co elusion -4f thes e annua l e l ect i ons are calculated to P r C ory sych baleful effects, I entreat of you to pause before r u oc e9 sent, to this measure—(Chcers)--as you value re ligious i P io re. as you value eual laws an d ,as you value the security , grity of this great empire, not to sanction by your allt'!" .. ,_tbs sl , ceitY of not to sanction by the legislative and moral au. • ose , establishment in Ireland of normal schools for the puiP ntiou el. teaching the science of agitation.—(Loud and CO r oy cheers.) I d eman d o f you, th en , respectfully but_ 0_a,;000 demand of you, not to establish in reland those grand . ~s ~ _`