The Sun. — London, England, 1810-06-07 00:00:00

NT. Jogl B Coin- e Irish thd ral Re nd th. ant to lips to 6( ie st:b• y been t mast ld not uld ba of iti in a e per- itions tho- Lies to !d up of his 1 that which !aring sdoin your. !xpe. C 3.• I at ad to last bsta oinO ers;. and tii"011 cc e're- that Led lore han leed me,/ po. un ,;ch still . on rgy ti C tea ng, the 3V5 lid ye:erechy, e inch he had nut 14.:f01e • seen. It wit , res luti,,tis to which the Irish Roman Catholic Ciery had come to in the month of March last. The Nckle, and Learned Lord read extracts from t•ese resolutions, troth which it now appeared evideet to him that they considered the Pope mere ly as the s.,iriturl head of their church, and as pos sessing no temporal power whatever. There was a diettetion, therefore, to be made between Papal superstition and the Csitholic Religion. Papal bll• perstition had always att!elied the idea of temporal power to the Pope. But the Irish Catholic Clergy of the day abjure that idea. The difficulty, there fore, which arose from the dread of toreign influ ence over the minds of the Catholics should be re moved. The Noble Lord ,next quoted several, passages nom Mr. Burke's celebrated Letter to Sir H. Lanwisli on the subjea of the Catholic Claims. On no subject was the wisdom, foresight, and integ rity of that great man more conspicuous. Every day proved the truth of the soundness of his views, aed his reasoning on this subjeEt had so powerful an influence on his mind, that that autho rity alone would incline him to support the present Motiett. The LORD CHANCELLOR could see no reason for going into a Corn oilier. If eve, hog the Catholics now claimed were to be granted to them, the same coneeseons ShOsild be made to every other dissenter from the Established Church. No difference should be made oetsseen them. But if that were the case, what would become of our religious and civil esta blishments what were the conditions which the the Ceholics were prepared to offer as pledges for the security of those establishments ? He knew of Hone they had yet proposed. Indeed they were not ekely to propose those, or to acquiesce in them that might be required at their hands. Their con science would not permit it. Where then was the use of going into a Commite,? Nothing new could be learnt in tin Committee that might not now be offered to the House. For his part, his mind was, ,and has been long made up on the subjeet, and whether in or ow trt a Committee, he should op pose the measure. Lord HOLLAND, Lord GREY, and the Duke of Noevoex wetrnly supported the motion ; which ua, .)p e osed by Lords LI% EIIFOOL, De DUNSTA vILLE, BORINGDoN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, and RE DEsDALE.—AIter :Inch Lord DONOUGMORE replied at some length, and the House:hen divided.... Contents . . 68 Non. nterits - - 554 Majority . —B6 Adjourned at Hail-past Two. HOUSE OF COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6. Mr. BERNARD brought in a Bill to encourage the Planting of Trees in Ireland. a staled that it wt;nt piincivally to remove sortie doubts that exited in the pr-sent law re»p-ating the planting of trees on lands held by leaves for ever.—lt was read a first time. • The Militia Pay Bill, the Subaltern Militia Offi cers' Pa ) Bill, the Scotch Clerg Bisl, the Scotch ana the lii,h Insurrection Bill, wcte s.zverilly read a viird (line, and pass-d. The Report of the New Forest Bill was agreed to. On the third reading of the Commercial Dock Cotnp3nk l3,it , Sir 'l. Tutt . roht propsed a clause, by way of rider, to pre,ene the rights of Woartingers, ciaase was oVjccteil to by Sir C. Patce and sir. Husxissorr. On a division the clause was rejected, there be ing oily five ayes and fury-ei b •ht noes.—The Bill :was then passed. suPeLv. The Report of the Committee of Supply was brou,;ni up, and the resolution for grapting a sum of IG.),000l. in aid of Queen Anne's Bounty was agreed to. OD t e Sllggeltioll of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the other resllutions were postponed, in order_ no wake some alteration. • The Vote of Credit Bill was read a second time, and comrnittenor 10-morrow. The Hou , e then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. Mr. WHARTON moved a resolution for voting a SUM of 10341. ss. to Jam-s Read, Eig, to pay Special Constables for services during the late dis turbances. Mr. WHITBREAD wished to know, as great corn. Plaints had ° uohe forth respecting the small am o unt of the Ctv,lPower, what number of Constables were a ctually Cll plc) ) ed. Mr. Seereiary RYDER had no objeEtion to furnish the account, pr ,vided it could be done consistent with the public safrty. In order to satisfy the Hon. Gentleman, he could state, however, that the whole of lite Civil Power was called out, special Constables Were sworn in, and indeed every step taken which could tend to preclude the necessity of resorting to th e ce of a !notary force. Mr. WHITBREAD could not see that any in convenience could result from laying au account on the, table. Besides; it wonkl serve 10;)ppease the Public ;nirid ; for the fact was, that both the 'Dili t3rY and civil power wee called out in the same !r.irrient. It toeretore was desirable to shew that the necessary steps had been taken in the office of Iti,bt Honourable Gentleman to secure the tranqu, i.y of ,he :own. Mr. Secretary RYDER again observed, that he had oojectino to stale the toial humber of special e'iustables, 1).1 must objea to specify the particular districts, becaut-1 it wouid lead to endiess inconve nience. The military power, notwithstanding what t he Honourable (7e,ntlemau ad, arced, was called „tit only a day and a half previous to the sv, earing in of special Constables, and those Con-. 'stables were always at their posts during the late urbance. Air. C. WiNNS asked at what period the military aElually were called out. Secretary RYDER stated, that the order for arrestin, Sir Francis Burdett was made on the l'hurs 40Y. 071 the Friday morning the Scrjeant at Arms was told that he. .. , ould find the Civil Magistrates at Secretary of State's Office, and that upon appli cation to them he c,,uld obtain any assistance, bosh civil and inilitary, if he stood in treed of it. The latter was resorted to as the better chance of pre the peace of the metropolis. :Ir. C. WYNNe observed, that it was extraordi nary the riots had confirmed so long. It could only . . . . . . Lin liuputa4fo tlarkwatit o f the chili power in the first instance to quell it. Mr. Secretary RYDER replied, that both the Ma. giatrates and Constables were in attendance on Thursday and Friday, as far as his recollection went as to the laa. Mr. WilirgitEAD contended, that when Sir John Anstruther's house was attacked, there was not a single constable to check the persons committing the outrage ; the same was the case with respect to the attack on Lord Castlereagh's and other houses; he therefore could not consent to vote the sum now asked for special constables. Mr. Secretary RYDER observed, that they were at their post night and day, the Guards were al,o doubled, and in that every means was taken to pre serve the peace. Mr. WHITREAD still objected to the vote. The Constables and the Guards, he observed, might be disposed of, and Government now wished to dis pose of 10341. but he must vote against it. Mr. Secretary RtDER declared, that he was at his post. Reports were brought him every hour of the state of the town; that on the evening kely-ri these constables were on duty, it was quiet ; at least there was no rioting. Mr. WHITBREAD thought' the reports brought to the Right Hon. Gentleman were false, (or on that very evening it was, that the attack on Sir John An struther's. house was made. Sir JON NEWPORT wished the number of c.in stables allotted to each district shoUld be published, and to knoix who the Special Magistrates were, be cause the residence .of Lord ~(loalereagli, of Sir John Austruther,.and of seveial others, were at tacked on the ,saine night, and the Civil Power were not to be found. The CHANCELLOR of. the PaCHEQUER was of opinion the Right Hoa. Baronet would not gain his objets by the information he aske,l; the kof destruction alluded to was so r Vaal it was not in the power of the constables to stop it, it was ef feeted in ten minutes. Did tn.- n. Baronet mean that the constables caul • I disperse a mob of the ..!e, scription alluded to. Did the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynne) wean to say, tliat supposing an eltc non was to be held, and a mcih to column :WAS of out rage, :oat th.-r, were any usesns to re,ress them without first reading the proclamation?--ihe mili tary could not ad urvii that had been done. If the Gentlemen opposite wished for the production of any papers on the subject, they might on a sub tequeut day, but at any rate it was but ril,ht that the persons who hid contributed their aid in restor ing tranquility should be remunerated, r. C. WYNNE insisted that with respect to out rages, various atts had been committ e d so as to w.irrant the civil power to ad long before the mili tary were called upon. General TARI.F.TUN said that the peace efficers were assembled at the G,oue•ster ()use, the outrages were committed in B , riieley square, yet not one tif these ge, tlemen ventured on , to s.op the rioters, who were composed principally of boys. Mr. WHITBREAD COUld consent to vote the money, notwithstanding all that he heard in Livour Qt the cthistAbh,s. He had no doubt the Right Hon. S , cre.ary was, as he had stated, at his post, bu• nevertiieless be was invisible to the Serjeant at Arms., • Mr. D. GIDDY had known a great•deal of mob, and• was convinced that when, as on this occasion, they w ere assisted by the most active portion of the population, it was then lime 0 call in stronger aid than the civil power. He was as great a friend to humanity and liberty as any one, but still he thought that the sooner a mob was repressed the better. It was very easy for Gentle Men to say that Government anticipating this or that shonid be prepared and quell 4 disturbance at its first rising, but perhaps if those Gentlemen, who now exclaimed against ahem, were in power, they would have been as ready to spare the effUsion of blood until the List moment, in hopes that peace might be restored without strong measures. If Government had acted wrong in the opinion of some G• mlemen, they at least had the opinion of a large portion of the country to the contrary. Mr. SIMEON drew a comparison between the Riots of 1780, and the late disturbances, and com plin3ented in warm terms the conduct of his Ma jesty's Ministers, which had subdued the disposi tion to riot. After a few more observations from Mr. Whit• bread, the Resolution was put and agreed to. Some conversation arose on a Resolution for granting 12,0001. as compensation to the Commis sioners for the Redemption of the Laud Tax. It was objeatd by Mr. Calcraft that the Report was unsatisfactory, and that Lord Glenbervie, one of the Commissioners, did not seem entitled to an allow ance of fool. per annum for ten years for h►s ser vices. He admitted that they might be beneficial ; but then the Noble Lord held another office. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQHER and the ATTORNEY-GENERAL defended the graniiand spoke in terms of respect of the abilities and assiduity of the Noble Lord. The Resolution was then put and carried. Mr. FOSTER then proposed that a sum of 10,0001. be granted to the Trustees and Commi•sioners of the First Fruits in Iruland, for rebuilding churches, cha pels, and providing glebes and glob;;-houies for the clergy in that kingdom. Sir Joitty NEWPORT Objened to the grant; be cause, if a fair valuation had taken place of the liv ings of the higher Clergy, a fund was appropriated by the benevolence of Queen Anne, amply sufficient for the purposes. It had Lot, however, since that reign been made productive. He entered into va rious statements to shew in what manner it could be rendered so. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER trusted, that because at some future period a fund might be made procludi%e, which at present was not so, that therefore the Right Hon, Bart. would not objet to giving to the Church what it so much stood in need of. With respect to the valuation, he rather thought 'it would be more desirable to abolish the fund than to increase the valuation. Lord MILTON approved of the grant, but corn plained that the Papers on the subject were not.suf ficittnly Sir JOHN NEWPORT declared his intention of bringing the subject again before Parliament early in the ensuing Session. Mr. FOiTEII protested againsi doetrines such ns haq,been follh by the itigbt on naTopet,vath resped to increasing the valuation on livings, .‘, After some timber observations from Colonel Bastard, ,;\,lr.. Foster, and.Sr J. Newport, in expla• nation, i e'a resolutloti w.,s agreed to. Tire Howie then ti*urneo,.and the report was or. • dered to be received to-morrow. , BE I: KS!! 11 1111(),If. . Mr. C. n; . --•ciated a .Petition from. the Gentry, Clergy, qn.i T.. , ';ecliolders of Berkshire, pray ing for. Parliarne:o'.)ry Deform. • The Petition Living been brought up and read, it I was, or. the motion of Mr. C. Dundas, ordered to lie ou the table. • • Mr. C. DUNDAs then presented another Petition from the saute County, pr4iog for the release of Mr. Gale ;Jones and Sir Francis Burdett, es hating been impriSoned against law. The Petition having been read, • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER With great pain objected to the Petition being lid on the table, because it contained a distinct aliegatiGn that a vote of that House had done an ',jury to the people. He therefore thought the House could not, cousistently with its : , wn dignity receive it. Mr. WnITBREAn was astonished, that the Right • Hon. Gentleman should refuse to receive the Peti tion, which was not in the least indecorous to the House. Was the averment that the House had • done wrong to be taken as . an insult ? If so, then Petitions could never be received. It was ridiculous to suppose, that :louse was irifdilible and never could err. He we.: re,tist;',O i the people had a right of stating any Ind the Petitien now presented contaieed !wetly the statement of what the Petitioners conceived a grievance, and therefore ought to be received. J. NEWPORT thought that the petition was • couched in the most respectful terms; if it was re jected, he did no know in what form the people cf Englund were to approach the House. Mr, Sec. RynER was at a loss to know on what point the Hon. girt. view-d the petition ; he could not conceive any thing more disrespectful, nor how the House could receive a more poipant insult, and on this ground the petition Ought to be rejected.—. He requested the House to cuntrJst the conduEt of Gentlemen on tue opposite side of the House yes terday, when they reeetied the Gloucester Petition with one voice, to that which they pursued to-day. If the House were to cons.:nt to receive this petition, it would be acknowledging the justice of a reproach upon themselves. Mr. BROUGHAM was StlrpiiSed at the observa tions of the Right Hon. Gentleman, which were nothing short of tehing the people that they had no right to petition. - Of this meeting no one had said it • was disreputable —no one said it consisted of pick pockets, or that it was in the neigebourhood of Hounslow. The incon,,istency ofsutfering a similar petition from the same place to lie on the table, and to refuse this was monstrous. He apprehended there was no possible ground for rejeding it. With respect to the Gloucestershire Petition, it contained nothing hut mere allegations without proofs. He be seeched the House not to treat the country with cold negled 5 it could not receive any other petition. if it was torcjed this. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY observed, that the question demanded the must attentive consideration. In the present situation of allitirs, the House would be ob iously wrong,' if it was to rejea the petition of a large and respe&ahle county, on the grounds, or ras ther, the pretext of disrespea. If it were rejeted, it must be imagined that Ministers %;ere determined to stand against every petition. If it were said, that because injuries are complained of, it mus. be re jected, the House on this principle could never re ceive another petition, not even against a Private Bill. With repel to the Gloucestershire Petition' the Right Hon. Gentleman carded to an excess the worn out argument of recrimination ; he did not look about him when he said that this side of the House rejected the Petition from Gloucester with one voice. There we-ic many who voted in the minority, and likewise rally of the Right Ho nourable Gentleman's friends who voted in the majority. As to his vote on the question, it was in dependent, and given with as clear a conscience as the Right Hon. Gentleman ever voted, who seemed to be the depository of the dignity of the House.— He thought that at least 24 hours should be given to the consideration of the subject ; he therefore, if it was not suggested by snot her, would move that the debate should be, adjourned till to-mot row. Mr. STEPHEN was confident that the vote of the Learned Gentleman on yesterday' was perfe6tly con sistent with his usual character. He was sure it was most conscientious ; for although he generally. voted differently from him, he was for the rejeCtion of the Petition yesterday, and exa&ly on the same grounds on which he would vote for the rejection of the present one, which he considered to be corn pletely parallel to it. The Gloucestershire Petition was refused, because it did not lead to any useful result; but seemed rather for the purpose of grati fying a malicious and improper feeling; the present • be conceived to be the same case. He would not believe that these petitioners came forward with a ; real expeaation of being heard. After the circum- ! stances which have occurred, and the adions in consequence brooght against the Speaker, could it be expected that the House would now comply, and erase from its Journals the orders and proceedings so shortly to be subjected to investigation ? He be beved that this Petition, like callers of the same class, was for the purpose of insulting the House, however it might be worded, for the purpose of keeping alive the clamour which had been raised for the worst of purposes. When the question was ar gued as if there was really an intention of over tarowing the right of petioning, Gentlemen dienot seem to understand the nature of petitions. His Learned Friend opposite must know, in the case of addresses to the Court of Chancery, the Keeper of the Seals has a right to commit for contempt of Court. He might recollect the case of Mrs. Crowe's Pamphlet, who, along with her Printer, were coot- -= mioed by the Chancellor, Lord Erskine, to the Fleet s _ Prison without a trial by Jury. The House, could not be content to suffer insults to be lad on its table. —He could not hut feel some indignation when he was told that innocent blood was shed, in conse quence of the ads of Ministers. He denied it ; blood was shed, in consequence of the most audaci ous and unjustifiable opposition, in consequence, he would not say of the democracy, as he had the L ,, ! greatest reaped for ! that pert of the .CorittitutiOti i but . in cowequen ce o f j aeo bi n i sm, and in point of intett•' lion, the most serious opposition. With respect what had been said of his Right. Honourable kriend i as being the depository of the dignity of the E10U.93 * be conceived t ery Member was so, Consider-. tog the spirit which had gone abroad, he believed such petitions were for no, other purpose than to. 'hew the people of England how far the HOUSC could be insulted. He called on the House not to snfier it to lie .on the table, as it could not be pro dull** of any good. Lord MLTON si id that,he felt quite alarmed at the rejection of the Petition. • He did not know what the tight of petioning was, if the subject had it nol in his power to co 'plain of grievances. He thought the lovivileses of the House to be high and unassail able, but he did not know of any spirt in the coun try which tended to injure or abridge them. It he thought like the !tight Honourable Secretary, 1.1 should now feel sore en this question, as lie had voted tor the co:nu:4lra of Sir F. Burdett and M. G. Juries. If it was th e right of the subjefit to pse• sent pc:ollms, s tee duty of the House to re oeive them. Mr. EARIi,\N that the Petition might not be rejeatd, _ _ Mr. LocE,HA7,I* thought, that the House„ should rejixi all petii,,oi w!iic!) were worded 111 itnpro per mani,cr. The prcsont be conLeived to be es 4 tretnely ;:h!_l;t:u 4 point of substance, inasmuch :is it ehari.:(-,1 the lious , .! with a great political crime, the assuwpri..uof arbitrary Sorne allusions bad been wade to a bid qiist,ng in the country ; be believed than a .:isle.: discontent did exist, but wai confident, that tue grcanr rut of the p-opie were sound, and viiihed wily for a lair and moderate Items form. - Mr. C. Dttrwss stated, that the meeting Was nu. merous m; !'d tespeclane. The tntemperant aof the petition he excused on the grounds Of the ignorance of the eons, tint-nce ai,d the public' spirit of the county. In support of his a,sertion in regard to the re , pedabi;ity of the Meetiog, he need only mention the name of Su J. Throgmort on, who trio,.e.l the pe tition. _the que,tion is now simply, whether the House is, to draw up pe itions for its Constituents to lay on the table. S;rJamcs HALL said that the imputat;on of Mi. nisters being the, cause of shedding innocent blood was totally unfounded ; it originated in what he would call the boyish mutiny of the Hon. Baronet now in the Tower. He conceived that this petition was a gross insult, and ought to Ee rejected. Mr. VANSITTART Withesi that the petitien might be read again. The Clerk then read it. Mr. VAN,ITrAnT observed, that the accusation of shedding blood could not be applied to the flou,e. He did not vote for the committal of Sir F. Burdett; but, he thought that the subsequept condutt of the lion. Baronet was an et , couragernent to the rnis chiefs which ensued. Sir T. TURTON said, that if the House was to re. fuse this Petition, it would give the signal'of re je6tion to all others. me. You would have been disposed to lean to. teceiving the Petitions from the people; but since he had heard the Petition under cofisideratieu read, he was sorry to say that his opinion of it was, that it was intended as an insult to the House. Entertain in e this °purism, therefore, he did not think it ought tole suftred to lie en the table. The rejection of the Petition besides .would not be any injury to the Petitioners, because they might next day present another petition for the same object, but couched in decent and respectful language. While he consider ed it the undoubted right of the subject to pe tition, he must contend that it was consonant to the practice of the best times that such pe titions as were - presented to that House, or to the Sovereign, should be drawn up with delicacy and not made the vehicles of insult and opproteum. If that opinion of his -was correct, and contained the true rule to jndge by, the quest;oa really was what the petition stated. Here he must express his regret for the mistaken notion which bad gone abroad . relative to the privileges of that House, and which had led to the results they had lately witness - - ed. It appeared to him cat all knowledge of the laws, or of the constitution of the country, bed vanished from the minds of a great part, though not the greater part, of the people of this country. Was it at this day that they should have to debat,:• con cerning the Privileges of Vehement ? We r, they yet, to learn that these pri , lieges were a part of the coin— mon law of the land ? Could it be doubied't hat it was a part of the er;vilege of that House to commit for contempt ? The time, he trusted, was not far dis tant when that question would be decided by,the best authority that could determine it, and e hem every doubt upon this important subject would be set at rest for ever. With refereuce to all that had occurred on this point, he happened to have oad a considerable share, in having recommended te tire House the commitment of Gale Jones. On the best consideration which. he had since b err able to bestow upon the subjet.i, he was consciiet tiously of opinion that in the part he had taken he was right ; and t hat iu the course the House had adopted, it was justified according to the soundest principles of the Constitution of Parliament, as uu d,irtrood in the very best periods of our history. This he was persuaded no Member would venture to deny. Gentlemen would bear in mind that the question for the commitment of John Gale Jones was agreed to in a House not very thinly attended, nemine contradicente. It had been said, and (latch insisted upon, it was not prudent to take such a step, or to exercise the privilege upon such an occasion. To this all he had to say was, that appeared to him a proper time for the House to make its stand, a d pet a stop to that flood of insult and abuse, which threat ened, at no very dis.aut period, to overthrow the au thority and foundation of Parliament. It might then be asked, why he had not brought the question under the consideratien until his own name was introduced, coupled with that of another Member (MieWind 'tam) now unfortunately no more, but whose loss Gill be ever deplored by all those who . are,friends to the privileges of that House, and the constitutional liberties of the country, who are enemies to the phrenzied speculations, that have so much of late oc cupied the imaginations of N ild theorists and limo. vators. It was not however without, the concur rence of that eminent person that be had taken the course that he had resorted to. He had consulted him, and liad his OnCtion for every step he trod ~'`7-