The Sun. — London, England, 1838-05-29 00:00:00

C ... e u rn . rnone n - otTeTalled on to pass all local measures, and yet that 1 7_idtie the cese if the local legislatures were to he abolished. If it sat ntd 1840 it would not be competent to deal with all that was neces sary in that respect. He (Mr. Ellice) would long since have had „c geslative fun c ti ons taken from these local assembl i es, but dist s i, aw the co l onies were not in a lit state for it. If it was not fit to de 1-wart, e:hein of th e power of self.governnsent then, how much less so ti„ not noes, when th e ma j or it y o f th e popu l a ti on, w ith ou t instruc „,_llsiand with out intelligence, heretofore slaves, were about to be e'f'agorde in the same position as .their former masters, with the power a "ling them, too, placed in their hands by their 'lumbers ? • Such lricithpliearse ftatoeof things sh ou ld b e l oo k e d t o w it h gr e a t apprehension. exciting the public mind in this country and the the nes those who slid so and those who did not, the House and soute lmb hc, all laid th e i r h earts and therr hands together to devise . Perfect system for the extinction of slavery all through the British do minions, a great deal more would he effected for the pe ace of th t ere , 4 f colonies, the benefit of soeiety at large, and the in effected the negroes them se l ves , than could possib'y be now We by the means whi c h were t a k en for that purpose. If this Therenot done he dreaded the result, and had no hope of the future. f tutn „was one good, however, which the House had a right to hope a ss.. !nese discussion's; that was, the 'masters of apprentices must now ,: t isfied that the people of England were in earliest, and that no con f.','ertathion would induce them to allow a: vestige of slavery to exist Bus the c Period fixed for its final extinction by the Imperial Parliament. se es ; We old, in his opinion, be certainly much better to give the colo eud i'n o pportunity of assisting, of their own accord, to arrive at that eutiu n ta a State of good f. cling with this country. 'Fader all the cir ino n ees, lie hoped the House would have no heSitation in agree to the resolution of his Hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State r the Colonic. s. Sir R . i r th e T T • INGLIS should vote for the motion of the Hon. Baronet aiti-noer Secretary of the Colonies, though he did not altogether agree it, because. it involved a lesser evil then the amendment of the ties•wind the Member for Warwickshire; and as the vote he should st ate a dd not be by any means popular out of doors, he was anxious to tes7cthe reason why he saw fit to incur the responsibily. The no " co al a l e , w which he took of the question, was, that there was 813,..trIpact whatever entered into with the West Indian proprietor of in th e '_, or with the local Legislatures, on the subject of slave labour, a Btit e t Act of 1833. By that Act the imperial Parliament took upon about. o decide the question of slavery, and the compensation for its w hiel. a l, solely on its own authority—a question which no Parliament was not buoyed up by the e:scitement of the Reform Bill could ev er e attempted, and which no local Legislature would have enter /.l,;(ed, t mless under the Gov e r n m e nt of his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley.) an e Sir Po Inglis) diff ere d, h e regre tted to say, altogether from his Hon. a; Lea rned Friend the M em b er f o r Bandon Bridge, for he could never e e with him that the law recognised no property in human flesh. It a as n ow two centuries ton late to make that assertion. That such aid slate. of things was highly ohjectionable Ire (Sir Robert Inglis) t ut no t mean f o r a moment to deny ; -but, crowded as the sta aeue,4°ks were with laws on this s u bject, lie th oug ht no o ne could tuut 'a r e to say th a t it was no t a ma tt er o f l eg i s l a ti on. A s regar d e d th e ii' m of the lion. Baronet the Under-Secretary of State for the Colo it,Bl he ( Sir It. Inglis) could not, as ins had stated, altogether concur in ho ugh he sh ou ld g i ve it his support as the lesser of two evils. It ' io not meet the difficulty in which the House was placed by the reso stateninf the Hon . B aronet the Member for Warw i c k s hi re. Th e mos t s nanlike course for the Government to have pursued would be to rescind that n et , resolution altogether.—(Hear, hear.) Tfle. counter-resolu .ii proposed did not deal with the difficulty. gave ‘ ,', "N " and Mr. O'CONNELL . rose at the same time, but the latter v n aj o " , e , i ngly at a suggestion from the former Hon. Member. tlhlellib'sse-r—covaioEnsS—ofsimr,yl certainly rise with some reluctance to reply to Right Hon. Friend the Me nber for Coventry. ante -1 1, ° ., n ,: „ Gen tleman has asked the Hon. Baronet who introduced this ado e n i L "' n t, why lie did ,not introduce a Bill founded on the resolution verelinassed the House the other night ? The answer is, that if Ire her t o introduce a Bill, that Bill would inevitably, by the opposition Ma i e stY's Government, be defeated ; and therefore the only that he !b nu ance 4o, , unteavcni jo h a as is that of obtaining from Parliament a recognition of another resolution passed against this measure, thins(ll Y that means inducing the Government to undertake that winch he thi uk Ar could net undertake with any chance of success. Therefore I a m the answer that must be given by the Hon. Baronet is very clear, su s a that s, that the Hon. Baronet does not introduce a Dill because Is introduced by him would be a total failure, whilst, if it effect nnro duced by her Majesty's Government, it would be carried into (l ase ,' (Hear, hear.) Now I think that that perhaps will be consi 400;'uti,n. answer insome degree to the enquiry why the Hon. Baronet sat' that introduce a Bill. But, then, the Right Hon. Gentleman has ati o , dt there would be great danger in any measure by which emanci. th at s hould be given to the negro, and by which there should be Plate t t Cha ,?ge in society in the West Indies which is contem. halo, "Y this measure. I am old enough to remember tthonv.iAn_gce. trade; this argument used against the abolition of and I apprehend that whoever has read that able and Ii o ' in g Publication issued by the Marquis of Sligo, will remember apB, 7n 'II his Lordship ridicules that argument. Lord Sligo, who, per. no, 44ibetter acquainted with colonial society than almost any man in day 0 2 16 e, says we were first told that the negroes would all rise on the 0 , 4 t 0 which they were liberated ; but did they rise? No—they rose Wor s a i w grship tin ir God—they went to , he temples, •and they offered ita s to that benefactor who had given them this great good. Then as said, I, lOEt they deferred rising till Christmas—at the Christmas holidays tast a. -ssu H r , dly they would rise and cut the throats of the white inhabi. joy, e asks, dielthey rise at Christmas ? and replies, No, they en -4,4 otheir festival with great innocence, with great hilarity, and as free_ call it tight to enjoy it. But this apprehension of danger is, I will not relieve a b ugbear, —but it is rather a chimerical apprehension. I don't Wh igs ' the least danger would arise from your giving liberty to the Wh e ' re ' a nd wily do I say so ? I say it on the test of ex . perience, because he al ver You have made a concessions to them, it has at all times th at received with gratitude, and disappointed the apprehension j e - WaS entertained ; and therefore, I think, I am justified ins r i g t hat the fear s expressed by my Bight Hon. Friend, and some other I.B.inhers of the House, iswholly without foundation. The Honourable thlriber for Sheffield has very justly observed, that co-ordinately with is resolution for the extinction of slavery, you are to take measures to b -' ', i tre the peace and tranquillity of the calornies; that therefore if you s t the resolution of the Hon. Baronet, you come to the determination a, 1 , away with that apprehension that is so wrongly entertained. But h e a c ertain degree he has put to the test the sincerity of these appre. 'a Ys h ' si ''ns by calling upon you to do an act of national justice. But shell, na ah e'Y Right Hon. Friend, there Is another circumstance o n w hi c h you nn se t i t o be on your guard. He says (and I am surprised to hear a corn. ha a k, 4l klan say so) the people of Jamaica are almost all in a state . of I u .° PtcY and insolvency —(No)— well, then, the finances of Jamaica. st s , e - PP°so the finances of Jamaica must depend very much on the state q e ,"2e funds of those who supply those finances, and if they are in that it'eciated state, it will only be necessary to call for those supplies which ;tho retrieve them. But it is not our fault that they are in that state. ah r _ 'e Paid their share of the twenty millions of money, and their It ' or private finances ought not to be in Alne situation that ght Hon. F r i end bas described, and therefore I apprehend that the r an ger on that ground is not ; er y imminent. W e ll, th en , h e says, eY will want Poor Laws, if they have liberty. Why, the people of atlll relanu ‘ svant Poor Laws, and yet they have liberty. Andbe says . , they d ° Want r agrant l aws . But cannot vagrant laws be supplied at the tune of ranting emancipation, if Government are disposed to take the measure up good earnest ? But it is said that during the present Session 3 ',, e 0 have no t ti ar e, , ,as am told ther e i s a n intention to settle questions have been vets much agitated, durig the very short time that re_ 'tams of this Session of Parliament ; and those are the questions of the Irish church and Irish Corporations; and if we can have these two dif ficult questions settled, I do not k now w hy we should apprehend that there is not sufficient time to settle the question that relates to giving em ancipation to the apprenticed negro. I should really conceive there is time enough to accomplish this object, and I do not know why Go. ‘' e rninent should not address themselves to that subject. But there is 440ther question that I wish to press very much on the consi:leratiou the }louse. My Hon. Friend says that two years are insufficient to ac. ti • tie , • o st this object for providing those laws that are necessary when "" state of society is changed. I wish to ask her Majesty's Govern. meat what h as b een d one d ur i ng th e f our y ears w hich have already passed s r—What has been done.since the year 1833 ? Why have not these It !,ures been proceeding ? Because we knew that this time was to copse. ti is a reproach on the Government to say there has not been sufficient u 'e to make these preparations. If they are not notecmete, there ti n ght ta have been some advances made towards them four years ta ' e a u t i b ave passed. My Right Hon. Friend says, what slid you recoils to be done in the Report of the Committee for inquiry into the 50,",:' ,7 of the apprenticeship system, of which you were a Member ? '" not shrink from giving an answer to that question.—(Cheers.) I tee th e Hon. Member for Newark is cheering that avowal. He stater ' ‘ °n a former occasion what the Committee did, but only partial l y. "'lll state what they did more fully, and more candidly and explicitly, a ° , ( . 8 1 7 House than he did.—( Hear, hear) I will say upon this sujec h t, ag: .1a : b een brought under my attention, that I was one of those hat who p at . e t e . e . 0 the Report of the Select Committee of 1836, and in t ar Ni :as stated distinctly that it was inexpedient to disturb the Vaat e Me nts that had been made with respect to the West India , t 4s, as to the apprenticeship system, and it was also stated that it -e ' ir able to postpone legislation.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But n there ;8 a matter connected with that subject that ought to be st u n under the considerations of the HOuse, and it is this—that the Itninnittee gave seven recommendations to the Government for the re atte4i" of the colonies and not one of thnse recommendations has been arist n i ded t o. - -(Hear, hear.) I say there were seven recommendations, w as - ar n Prepared to state what those recommendations were. The first Nlow , tliat there should be more reciprocity with respect to the penalties. (Il eu ' r I beg to know whether that reciprocity has been Established.— tin li e ar.) As far as I know, it was only embodied in Lord Gismelg's to. ''Ski 8 .4 ,1 .. cb was brought forward two years after our report was agreed , 4t h.na fide reciprocity? Would not, in the mean time, on ? Has it not been owing to this neglect that this agitation failr itt en ? Wh a t i s the next complaint ? That there was a scant of gore constituted tribunals, in order to apportion the value of the no. bu s es B Y who wished t o be emancipated. Have these tribunals been esta ed ssia ? or, if they have, are they not of very recent date? It was next Wh o ' ` fl at attention ought ' to be given to the special magistrates. Now, lin e : d ver is aware of the situation in which the Special Magostrates t are l ""sta - , k , ne 'ws they have not had the protection they ought to have rai t; ' - `t has been iusittlicient—that they had been placed in situations •nually where impartiality was impossible, and that they frequent y ( ilie ' s t ti fre nt the table of the planter to the judicial Bench, to decide t hat .I}?,n,' ''ending between the planter and the slave. Next, it was said the -cc was a want of proper attention to the p rovision g rounds of l'll e n a - i 4rn • That is a coirplaint that has remained to the present day. hav h ave been p ut u p on a system by which, as the negroes say, they the te en defrauded of almost the only d i ay cf the week n which '.'s,, a nti ght to have the opportunity of cultivating those provision grounds, and the consequence is, ,d tha a t re t q h u e ite pr i ll u o ffi on . tie r , hare gone wholly into dilipidation, an I'l le ' ts 'or the production of what is necessary for their . support. the son g of these resolutions complained of a want of protection against feta -Qg g i nit of females Now I am bound to say that the . flogglng of -'4 o es (mg oi the greatest abuses which has been complained after Con a j? n tinued up to the present day. Shall it be said that h tlie s \ Thi e - t ?', tte e has given these cogent recommendations to Parliament, na eu have been wholly neglected, that the House shall be now called ? th at .to adhere to the principle upon which this report was founded sla t , ' t shall be tow said that the apprent i ces hip system was not to be 'Oers l ' e * Bo e(l after all the recommendations for which the ir stability was d epend have been disregarded ?—(Hear, hear.) 'Thesi xt so ht s : : SW, I - 2 was, a want of well-defined marriage law for the negroes. Col on ." 00 14 ask my Right Hon. Friend, the Under Secretary for the the Bio le ‘ s r whether tine subject has not been pressed upon the . attention vane o t f hiv e , 8 , er ninent for , the last two years—and whether a promise ‘ th a eut h ntat attention would be paid to it—and whether, up to the pre ;are Mi r, the negroes are not in such a situation that half the marriages or 4,, t ° s°l enthised that the parties do not know whether they are legal --ea t ' a nd that many cf the children are in a dubious state of legitimacy? lat"ts operZas th __;ear, r, hear.) Sir, I say, that is not a state in which ought to be placed ? Very far from it. The tauts the recommendations of the Committee is, a want of Pa s , ett ette n to children under six years of age at the time this law was children I believe that protection has never been extended to these I maintain n a fair or satisfactory manner ; and if such has been the case, 'liar that I have established the proposition I set out with, and 14,8 been not one of the seven recommendations of the Committee hots and eoltiplied with, and the consequence is; that all the dissatisfac out oarnd discontent that have arisen throughout this country, both in and e , t he House, has been owing to this circumstance.—(Cheers.) Sa e I am inclined to press the matter somewhat further—l . say that slea ren \nb 'e Lord, the Member fur North Lancashire, has been in some ik ° to b lame —sand here, let me observe, that I by no means wish ta iri '' a , ervalue his services—l fully appreciate those services in obtaining h ew t i e ntnroission of these unhappy men, and no language can express vsai eb ut ch it e friends of humanity owe him, and the Government with how ev vas connected, o n that account.—(Hear, hear.) I think, Ann a t er . ti at aft er th e pass i ng o f t h e A c t, there was a want of atten °wards the interests of the negroes, whirls ought to have been paid on his part, when he suffered the compensation money to slip through his hands, and go into the pockets of the planters, before he had made arrangements to guarantee the fulfilment of the conditions for which that compensation was paid. He was bound by the Act of Parliament to obtain from them a sufficient guarantee that the condi tions of the compact would be strictly complied with. In reality, none of.those conditions have been complied with up td she present hour; and if the Noble Lord instead of having been carried away by the eae cess of his liberality, and his confiding spirit, had kept back the 21,000,0001., and had only paid it where the planters were fairly entitled to it, the question we are now discussing in all proba. bility would never have arisen. Now I would beg to ask the Noble Lord if he will have an opportunity of giving me a reply in the course of the evening, whether that adequate and sufficient guarantee was given, on the part of the planters, that the Imperial Act required ? From the best attention I have been able to give to the sulject, I have been led to conclude that such has not,been the case. Sir, I wish now to refer to the provisions of the Act itself, for the abolition of slavery, and I shall trouble the House with one of its provisions.—[The Hon. Member here referred to the Act, but finding some difficulty in making out the clause to which he wished to refer, Lord Stanley crossed from the oppo_ site side of the House and handed him the copy of the Act to which he had been referring.] Mr. Baines then proceeded to read the clause as fellows,—" And be it further enacted, that, subject to the obliga tions imposed by this Act, or to be imposed by any such Act or General Assembly, or Ordinance, or Order in Council, as hereinafter mentioned upon such apprenticed labourers as aforesaid, all and every the persons who on the said Ist day of August, 1834, shall be holden in slavery within any such British Colony as aforesaid, shall upon and from and after the said Ist day of August, 1834, become and be to all intents and pur poses free, and discharged of and from all manner of slavery, and shall be absolutely ar•.d for ever manumitted ; and that the children there after to be born to any such persons, and the offspring of such chil dren, shall in I.ke manner be free from their birth : and that front and after the said ISth day of August, 1835, slavery shall be and is hereby utterly and for ever abolished, and declared unlawful throughout the British colonies, plantations, and possessions abroad." Sir, having stated to the House what are the provisions of the Act, I shall now refer to the commentary made by the Noble Lord upon that Act. The Noble Lord explicitly stated (thinking that the provisions might not be sufficiently clear) what the Act really meant, or rather what was meant, to be enacted. Before the Act had passed into law, and after the Bill had been introduced to the house the Noble Lord said :—" I propose, then, that every slave on the passing of this Act, shall forthwith have the power of claiming to be put in a situation in which he shall enjoy all the privileges of a free man." In what he shall feel no taint of his servile condition—in which he shall be freed from the atrocious system of irresponsible corporeal punish. ment—in which he shall have the full enjoyment of his domestic ties— in which he shall not be compelled to see those who are nearest and dearest to him insulted by punishment, or liable to degradation— in which he shall enjoy every right and every .privilege of a free man, subject to this restriction, and this restriction only—that he shall for a certain time remain under contract to labour industriously in the service of his present owner, but his then employer."—(Hear.) Sir, Its inflow ask the Noble Lord and the House, whether the negro does enjoy " all the privileges of a frets man ?"—I will ask the House whether he has not been subjected to imprisonment at the pleasure of the planter—whether he has not been subjected to punishment at the will of the overseer, without having had that trial to which he was justly and legally entitled ?—(Hear, hear.) Either such has been the case, or all the statements which have been put forward on the subject are grossly erroneous. But I will to ask the House further, has the negro felt " no taint of his servile condition ?"—has he not every hour of his labour, and even when at rest, been subject to that cruelty and op pression which has very properly been termed " servile," because it was not thrown by, and was not such as a free labourer would have sub. mitted to ? DJ we not find by the returns sent home to this country by the special magistrates, that millions of stripes have been inflicted upon these unhappy men ; and has not the infamous system of flogging females been proved upon the most camp e e and irrefragable eyidcnce? and has it not been admitted that the Act has been violated in the most shameful manner ?—(Hear, I ear.) Then it has been said that the negro would be no los g r subjected to see his nearest and dearest relaticns placed in degrade.l or dishonourable situations, but I would ask if females are not, even to this very day, ac cording to the testimony of Lord Sligo, for the most trifling offences, yoked to carts in the streets, chained to persons of the most degraded and abandoned habits, and placed in situations themost vile and revolt ing to which a female could be subjected ?—And whether the morals and cha - acters of the young females are not frequently contaminated, and the manners of the mothers endangered by this most improper and uef sling conduct? Sir, I appeal to the House, and I would ask is that enjoying the rights of a free man ? Is that enjoying the liberty of a free man P Is that seeing his relations no longer exposed to degradation and insult ? I put these questions fairly to the House, and I repeat that in all these cases there has been a gross violation of the contract.—(Hear and cheers.) It has been asserted that we are the advocates for a violation of the contract, but I tell you that ihose who have com mitted a violation of the contract are the parties who after having given these solemn pledges, now subject the apprentices to this degradation and these unwarrantable punishments, which has excited the ii.dignation of every honourable and humane man in the empire. There have been unbounded proofs of the docility and of the kind dis• position of the negroes; and yet these oppressed people are to be treated in the manner I have described, and you marvel because they complain. Is it not very natural that they should complain, and that their friends should complain for them ? I hear it said that those who create this excitation are labouring under a delusion of mind, and of too warm and ardent feelings. I dont wonder at it, but why is it ? it is because the negroes have not been properly treated—it is because they have been treated unkindly and ungenerously; and is there any thing in which a negro can be more unkindly treated than in the article of food. Now I come to the case of British Guiana— and I beg to ask the Hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Gladstone) if it is not within his knowledge, that there was an order in Council issued by Sir George Murray, after a strict intestigation had been made into the wants of the negroes, and after he had ascertained what was the reasonable food that ought to be awarded to them, by which it was ordered the negro should have 21 pints of farinaceous food per day ? [We believe Mr. Gladstone here expressed dissent.] Does the Honourable Gentleman say no ? Why—l don't happen to have the Order in Council wills me, but I believe he will find there is not the least doubt of it. I will put another question—Has not the negro, who was allowed twenty-one pints of flour before the abolition of slavery been restricted to ten pints since? Does he believe that? I shall he in a situation to prove it most incontestibly, that since the passing of the Act for the abolition of slavery (whatever might have been the quantity_before) lie has only received ten pints weekly. When the Hon. Gentleman opposite seems to think my statement is not true, I should be in some little doubt myself as to the accuracy of it ; but I have the statement here copied, and I have no doubt accurately, and it stands thus—that according to the Order in Council issued in 1531, while Sir George Murray was in the Colonial Office, negroes were to be allowed 21 pints of meal a day, and also seven herrings, in additicn to this; and since the year 1834, their allowance has only been ten pints of flour, 3 lbs. of salt cod fish, and half a pound of silt; making a difference of one-half of the whole quantity. Was it not natural that the negro should complain of this, that when he was in a state of what is called liberty, he should have only one-half the quantity of food he had when in slavery! That is the complaint that has been continually made, and it is made up to the present hour. Within the last month there has been an Order in Council issued, by which it is declared that the negro shall have either seventy plaintains, or that he shall have what is equal to twenty-one pints of flour. I beg to ask my Right Hon. Friend, the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, whether that is not the case P—( A laugh.) This is not a laughing or light matter— it is very light food, but not a very light subject. It is either true or not, that there has been such an Order in Council. If it is true what is the inference ? Not that they are overfed now, but that they were under-fed before. I must say my impression is, it will be found the statement I have made is correct to the letter. I shall be very glad to hoar any correction of it, but I believe the correction will be found to amount in substance to precisely what I hsve stated.—(Cries of " Question, question," from the Opposition.) I hope Isbell not be thought very obtrusive, when it is considered I have laid before the House not fewer than 100 petitions, perhaps signed by 100,000 individuals, and that I have not opened my mouth either in or out of the House on this matter, during all the time the discus.. sions on this subject have been going on.—(Hear, hear.) I think i I cannot be said I have obtruded myself very unfairly on the attention of t h e House.—(Hear, hear.) I hope I have only done what it is corn. petent for me as a Member of Parliament to do, as I hope I have not done it offensively. I believe the persons who are concerned in what may be called the present agitation, are themselves actuated by the best and the purest motives.—(Hear, hear.) There have been presented to the House Tepwards of three thousand petitions on this subject. Those petitions are signed by upwards of a million of people; and shall we have petitions to that amount laid on the table of the House (and from individuals, too, who don't lightly take up a subject), only to be disregarded by the /louse ?—(Hear, hear.) There cannot be two opinions in this House, that for the most part the person who signs those petitions are men labouring under the influ ence of the best principles. Those who knew them best esteem them highest. After having such au array of petitions, and such statements as I have brought before the House, I think Hon. Members will not be of opinion that the measure had been taken up lightly, or in the spirit of party.—(Hear, hear.) My Hon. Friend opposite (Sir E. Wilmot) has not taken up this subject in a party spirit. I shall vote for his resolu tion under the -perfect confidence that if the House of Commons have the firmness to enact those laws that are necessary for the preservation and tranquillity of the colonies it is quite competent to them to do so.—(Hear.) With respect to any injustice to the planters, I will only say that if you were to terminate the apprenticeship system to-morrow, I do not believe you would do him any injustice. Why do I say so ? You give the apprentices compmsa tion. They don't ask yoo for money—they ask you for that which is better than money—Liberty.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The further years of apprenticeship, is nothing more nor less than slavery. With respect to the complaints in Jamaica, it is said, those complaints are not universal. I am of opinion the House is not sufficiently acquainted with the extent of those complaints.—(llear, hear.) When I am supported by such authority as the Marquis of Sligo, fortified by the authority of the Magistrates—and by the authority of official documents—all of which support the case, have laboured so feebly to advocate—after there has been exhibited before the House those state ments, I think the House may very safely come to the conclusion that the amendment moved by the Honourable Baronet opposite ought to be adopted, and that the Government be instructed to carry it into law. Sir IL PEEL said—Sir, I shall leave it to others who have more practical knowledge of the subject than myself to enter into the details of the question. My objection. to enter into these details is chiefly founded on this leading consideration, that we ought not to endeavour to carry into force a change so important on a resolution advocated only by a majority of three.—(Hear, hear.) The resolution of the Hon. Baronet is tantamount to this, that we are not prepared to carry into full effect the Act which established the apprenticeship system, and by whirls the entire freedom of the negro was postponed till 1840. I would have no objection in voting directly in opposition to that resolu tion of the 02d of May, but the amendment proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir George Grey) will have the same effect. Sir, I would feel no difficulty in rescinding that resolution altogether, for I confess that the mode adopted by the Hon. Member for Warwickshire appears to me most objectionable.—(Hear, hear.) It is not proposed by bins to rescind by Act of Parliament the former Act of Parliament, which established the apprenticeship system after full and mature ex amination and deliberation by the labours of Committees year after year, and by debate after debate in both Houses : No, Sir—all this is proposed to be overthrown and set aside by a short resolution after a short debate—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear)—a resolution creating a host of difficulties by undoing everything, and providing no thing to meet the evil. It does not invite the House of Lords to take any part in the reconsideration and readjustment of a question on which they have already bestowed so much attention, while it throws on the House of Commons the whole onus of self-contradic tion anti the burden and the dangers of discrepant legislation.—(Hear.) If the Hon. Baronet had asked leave to bring in a Bill to revise and amend the whole or any part of the legislation already accomplished, it would, as it passed through its several stages, have afforded the neces sary opportunities for guarding the enactment of a theoretic resolution, so dangerous in principle, by practical provisions and precautions which might have guarded as far as possible against any mischief to arise from such wholesale contradictory legislation.—(Hear, hear.) But no I the Hon. Baronet insists on committing us to the assertion of a discordant principle and the promise of a practical solution of the difficulty it in volves, while himself professes to be unable to solve the difficulty he creates. This, Sir, I think we have a right to complain of as unfair. — (Hear, hear.) If he had thought his principle sound and right he ought to have been prepared to establish and demonstrate its correctness—(Hear, hear)—a principle which goes not only to contravene the legislation of former Parliaments but of your own—enacted not mere than two months since.— (Hear, hear, hear.) It is, in short, a measure calculated both to fetter the House in its fu ture enactments, and commit it to undo its most salutary past labours for the settlement of a vitally important subject.—(Hear, bear.) I have therefore, no hesitation in taking a course calculated directly to coun teract the danger to be apprehended from its introduction, and shall now i state the train of consecutive reasons which have led me to this concise. ' i sion :—The adoption of the period of apprenticeship proposed, in 1833, was made for the double purpose—first, of arranging a pecuniary corn. pensation to the proprietors of slaves; and, secondly, as a preparatory state for the negro himself, judged necessary on all hands to fit him for that of entire freedom which was to follow. My Hon. Friend seems to doubt that there was any compact virtually made or intended in this arrangement ; but I can easily establish these two points con ceded by the Bill—first, that a pecuniary award should be made to the masters for their property in their slaves; and, secondly, that ' the labour of the slaves should for a certain time be secured to them, and taken in part-payment of their masters' claim. Th e author of the measure (on the Nth of July, 1833) admitted that he " he had distinctly stated, when he introduced the measure, that compensation was due to the planters, because a principle of justicere quired that they should not take a man's property away from him with out an equivalent—because the laws of England had recognised the slaves as the property of the West India peoprictors—and the House of Commons having declared that emancipation should take place, de.. Glared at the samne time that they would grant compensation to the West India proprietors." Lord Althorp also had said, in advocating the measure, " He was convinced that the period of apprenticeship which they proposed would not only be advantageous to the planter but also to the negro, inasmuch as it would induce him to adopt industrious habits, and thereby prepare him to support himself by his own exertions. He thought that those who were disposed to put a just value on their free.. dons would work it out long before the period assigned, and for those who were not so disposed the period of transition would be necessary to prepare them, and to prevent them falling back into that state of bar. barism in which men laboured only sufficiently to maintain existence." The Bill by its arrangements gives the masters full power to dispose of the remainner of the time allotted for the negro to work out his free. dons, and therefore it is natural to presume that they have so disposed of it in a variety of cases. Now what regulation does the Hon. Baronet propose to ascertain and meet the losses which would arise out of the adoption of his resolution ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) How is the purchaser of the negro's time to be compen sated ?—Hear) If you say you will provide for it, show me out of what fund ? If you say he is not to be compensats.d—why, there...never would be such injustice inflicted by an Act of the Legislature.—(Hear.) The Committee which sat in 1636 expressly stated " that nothing could be more unfortunate for the Colonies than the unsettling of the en- gagement by which the labour of the slave for seven years was fixed as a portion of the compensationguaranteed to the proprietor by the Legis. lature." Thus the Committee cbstinctly recognises the compact entered betweeninto proprietors ; there was, it was tru e, no written Parliamenttfeia•e and the was an unwritten one in fact and i n sp i r i t compact,b ut which ought to be fully as binding on the Legislature.—(Hear.) If that compact was understood by Parliament, by the West India colo nists, and by the whole world, who looked on with anxious interest, in the same sense—in that sense ought that unwritten lew to be binding on Pariiament.—(Hear) The question' was still open how far the under stood compact had been adhered to by the colonists. It was for Parlia ment to say, had there been such an universal violation of the law on the part of the planters as to call for the sweeping resolution by which the Hon. Bart. had met time supposed case of colonial criminality. Hebelieved I the case was far otherwise; but, supposing that some had violated the spirit of time compact in the cruel treatment of their negroes, in the punishment provided by the resolution confined to the guilty ?—(Hear.) If not, it is not a just punishment. You have doubtless a right to pro tect the negro and insist on an obedience to your enactments for his I welfare; but has there really been such a general and universal neglect of these provisions on the part of the planters as to call for universal confiscation of this species of their property. Again I will ask, is the proposition just as affecting the interests and feelings of the great popu lation of the West India islands themselves ? If not, I would say, be. ware how you outrage those interests and feelings.—(Hear.) I have I carefully read through the evidence on this subject, but I shall not oc cupy the time of the House in quotations, for I see that (taking de tached portions) nothing would be easier than to make out a case on either side.—(Hear.) If you look to one letter you will find that all is going on right and happily, Look to another, and you will see statements of all proceedings so lamentable that it appears to require instant and sweeping alteration. But, after all, much must be conceded to the superior information of their respective local Legislatures.— (Hear.) That of Antigua has anticipated you; and made its slaves free at once. The Legislature of Barbadoes are considering the same question, and it would be unfair and ungenerous to forestall the measures of freedom they may have in contemplation. If you mean to proceed in utter disregard of these local legislatures, how do you mean to govern these colonies in future ? Lo you mean so draw.two distinct black and white lines of demarcation in your legislation for these co lonies ?—(Hear, hear.) Do you intend to govern them henceforth without the aid of those best fitted to aid you by local knowledge and local interest ?—(Hear.) In the case of Barbadoes, for instance, if the Legislature was to learn that the House of Commons hail stepped in to deprive theta of the means of making an act of grace, it would not tend to increase the harmony which is so desirable should exist between the Legislatures. As to the proceedings of the Legislature of Jamaica, I view it with exceeding regret. lam not at all an advocate of their views and principles. On the contrary, I confess that it appears to me that nothing short of infatuation can explain their conduct.—(Cheers.) Considering that the abolition of slavery is now certain and inevitable, and that only two short years , will elapse before it must terminate by law, it seems incomprehensible to me how any set of men, acting in a legislative capacity, would not apply themselves to carry into effect with good faith the provisions enacted for the benefit of the whole colony. But, I ask again, is there any proof of such a general departure from the spirit of the Bill as to render this measure necessary? The Committee which sat on this great question in 1836 reports that the de. sire of improvement seems to be gaining ground wills the progress of of the apprenticeship, that the system is developing highly satisfactory results, and deprecate nothing so much as a disturbance of the arrange ments till the fair and settled termination of the period of apprenticeship in 1840. The friends of this resolution of total abolition were formerly eager in advising to the advocates of other measures, " wait till the tune arrive," but now they are so inconsiderate as to require two years to be struck off, instead of waiting four years, as they themselves proposed. Well, after confining your attention to Jamaica (the chief seat of dissa tisfaction,) you say on the whole that the employment of the negio under the apprenticeship system was proceeding satisfactorily. Antigua has anticipated you. Barbadoes is proceeding in the same path. In Guiana, the report of the Governor, Sir J. Carmichael Smyth, was highly satisfac tory, coming as it did from such an unquestioned source. (" No, no," from Mr. O'Connell.) I have always heard that Sir J. C. Smith bore the highest character, that he had conciliated the good will of the slaves there as well as in other Colonies, where he had been found so efficient, and so above the ordinary prejudices of the whites, that he was deemed twos thy to administer the affairs of Guiana ; and he declares his astonish ment that so much has been effected for the improvement of the negroes in so short a space of time, and feels a high degree of satisfaction in having been made an humble instrument in the work. They had heard of the employment of " millions of stripes" under the present system ; but Sir J. C. Smiths declares "that its a country where the whip head ha. bitually resounded, and terror nightly reigned, he can now lay down his head in peace, without fear of the slightest disturbance." It was his decided opinion that the period of apprenticeship ought not to be short ened. Charges had been brought against his Government by Mr. Sco_ bel ; but charges inure clearly and impartially refuted I never heard. Looking, then, to this question as one of prudence and sound policy, - I think the adoption of the resolution of unqualified emancipation would be both unjust to the proprietors, and dangerous and unwise to the ge neral interests of the Colonies. It is quite a different question whether it was wise to have adopted the system of appi enticeship. I think that it would have been wissr to have abolished slavery at the time altogether . but even those who thought s o th en agree w i t h me now. They see wi t h me that considereble prejudices exist on the subject of education in the Colo nies, as well as on those of the militia and time Poor-laws. The fact is that, legislate as you will, you are dependent to a greater degree on the feelings of the white population for the comfort of the slaves than you think. Are you quite sure that without preparing the white po pulation you are conferring a boon on the negro by your interference ? —(Hear, hear.) Recollect you have no despotic laws in the colonies to aid you like those of Spain; and to take upon themselves all the conse.. quences of what might mice from this Act is what I cannot persuade myself the British House of Commons will agree to.—(Hear.) Even after the total abolition is carried out in 1840 you will have many things to attend to in time way of precautions, for while prejudices such as those which exist so extensively and deeply rooted in America, respecting the colour of the negro, are afloat—unless you can prove to the white popu lation of those islands that you are independent of the clamour that may arise on this subject—you will not be able to do one-half the good yo u othet wise might.—(Hear, hear.) If once an impression pervades the colonies that Parliament is prepared to abandon its functions, and it is ready to delegate its authority to Exeter Hall, you will de prive yourself of the power you ought to exercise in balancing time pale ties and calming the passions of opposing, interests and classes its the West Indies. If you yield to these extrinsic appeals you will, I feel as sured, not only forfeit the just influence you ought to possess over your own colonies, but you will also lose the desirable influence which you might exercise over the fate of millions elsewhere.—(Hear, hear.) If you say you can't fulfil your engagement with your own colonies, you will be powerless to Induce other countries to follow your example.— (Hear, hear.) I feel convinced, in common with the reflecting portion of the world, that slavery cannot last long—(Hear, hear)—and that the wisest course which America and France could take, would be to put a speedy end to it altogether. There are about 800,000 slaves belonging to Great Britain, and 5,000,000 to America, which we are also inte. rested to see freed. But shall we, while a system is making satisfactory progress in our colonies, step in, and by a majority of three, tell the world that we cannot uphold the very system we have established, and the only course for foreign nations to adopt is the immediate abolition of slavery in their colonies ?—(Hear.) I believe, Sir, that the observance of the apprenticeship sys tem as it now stands, and the observance of the obligations it Involves,' is of the utmost importance for the amicable termination of slavery. Otherwise I see a long course of discord, perhaps of bloodshed, in store for the hapless colonies. If, however, we firmly refuse - to listen to an appeal to our passions on this exciting subject, and steadily hold the scales between both parties, I trust we shall shortly see the name ofslave everywhere abolished.—(Hear, hear.) If, on the contrary, we lend an ear to those who would hastily break up the settled legislative basis of the social compact that had taken such time and labour to arrange, we also may deceive the slave population, and lead them perhaps into a fatal ap peal to force, to be repelled with force, and lead to misery still greater. SVe should thus, Sir, be furnishing the best excuse to time proprietors of slaves and others who contend for the necessity of keep them in strict bondage, and furnishing an argument to other Governments that have not the moral courage to put an end to the slave trade. Mr. O'CONNELL contended that the course adopted by the Hon. Baronet the Member for North Warwickshire, of bringing forward the question of immediate emancipation in the shape of a resolution was the most convenient that could have been adopted, be ause it took away from those who were likely to approve of the principle the pretext of op posinglt on the ground of its details being objectionable. The Right Hon. Baronet had alluded to a report sent home from Jamaica; but he was ignorant of the fact that that report had been agreed to before the evi dence on which it professed to be founded could be collected, and was consequently of no more value than a vote of that House given two years before the facts on which it was cawed for were known ? The Hon. Baronet had alluded to the meetings at Exeter-hall ; and why had he done so? Why, clearly to evince his willingness to share with the Go vernment the blame of resisting the prayers of the multitude who as sembled there on behalf of the negro. He then referred to Guiana. Did he not know that the report of Sir J. C. Smith upon the state of that colony bad been controverted ? Did he not know, moreover, that the charges which Mr. Scobell had brought against Sir J. C. Smith were as yet unanswered, and he believed unanswer able ? The Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford had give n the negro the benefit of the principal part o f hi s speech, and h e hoped would let his vote follow it. He said boldly t h at there ha d been no contract. Yes ; the Lord Chief Justice o f E ngland, and the th i r ty-four colleges of Oxford, in the person of their rep resentat i ve, agree d 0,1 . that head. The Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert I ng li s ) ma i ntained that t h e l a bour of the negro had been given as a boon t o t h e planter d ur i ng appren ticeship, but that it formed no part of th e contract. If the Legislatur e had given it, the Legislature might take it away.--(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Why, that was but the fair inference from the argument of the Hon. Baronet.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. the Member for Coventry had told the House that it would take four years to make the requisite preparations for emancipation. Did he mean to say that slavery was to last four years more? Surely not. Four years had already elapsed since emancipation had been agreed upon, and as yet no measure of preparation had been adopted. The Hon. Baronet who opened the de bate commenced by warning them of the danger of so frequently dis cussing the question of immediate emancipation. But he was wrong; That was not the danger to be apprehended. The danger to be appre hended was the delaying and not the discussing of the question of emanci pation. If there was anything calculated to disturb the negro in his c urse of tranquil submission to the proceedings of the Legislature it would be the deterring of his hopes, when all his past conduct so fully justified him in expecting that he should be no longer, kept in slavery.— (Cheers.) The great majority of the people of England Called aloud for the negro's emancipation. It was nbt the idle, the dissipated, and the thoughtless that were its advocates, it was the pious, the sober, and the enlightened classes of the community. And why were they so? Because, in addition to the great and pressing appeals of humanity, they found that the conduct of the negro population in all the colonies had been . such as to entitle them to freedom. The entire evidence was in favour of immediate emancipation, for the entire evidence went to prove that the negro was capable of appreciating the boon, and ready to meet the important change in his condition which it would bring about. But he now came to the great evil—the dark spot in the history of the whole transaction—the paying of the 2.0,000,000/. to the planters. That sum, he maintained, had been paid to them i❑ defiance of the law, their claim to it being founded in fraud and deceit. He did not accuse those who paid it of any improper motives, but he did contend that they had not been sufficiently cautious, and had allowed themselves to be grossly deluded. The Act of 1534 specifically required that the money should not be paid to the planters until proper security was given that its conditions as regarded the negroes should be carried into effect. Had that security been given ? or, if so, had those conditions been kept? Why, if the planters had fulfilled their contract, what was the occasion for the Act passed during the present Session ? If the planters had observed their part of the contract, then the Act - to which he alluded was in direct violation of It, and he had nothing to do but to read the several clauses of which it was composed to prove that it was so. The Government had committed a grave fault in paying the twenty millions as they had done, and for that fault he openly arraigned them before the people of England. It was only now that the planters were entitled to be paid ; so that, in addition to the enormous principal, they had, through the precipitancy of the Government, pocketed four years' interest upon it. But what reparation was to be made to the negro for' the mistake which had been committed ? How was he to be compensated for the non fulfilment, on the part of the planters, of the conditions of the Act of 1834? How was he to be paid for his time lost What com pensation was to be given to the unfortunate woman who had been flogged? None. Alas! they could not repair the past. But they could do something for the future. It was in their power to do justice to the suffering negro, and justice he demanded at their hands.—(Cheers.) He was not alone in the call. The majority of the English nation joined him, and the appeal no Government could long resist. Let him not be told there was no time for preparations. He denied that they were wanted; but if they were, they could well proceed, pari passe, with the Bill for carrying into effect the resolution of that House. He s h: s i t p e l d oled (c th h e ee l r l s o o use, therefore, to pause before they decided against the claim ofthe negro, for that claim was in every sense the claim of jus tice; and though it might for a time, could not eventually be re. Hr. ELLICE explained. What he had said was• that the two years yet unexpired would be nesessary for carrying the requisite preparatory measure.s previous to total abolition ; but nothing was farther from his thoughts than to suggest the idea of continuing slavery longer than the law of 1834 proposed.—(Cheers ) Hr. O'CONNELL was most ready to suppose that he had mistaken the Right Hon. Gentleman. Lord STANLEY could assure the House that he would trespass but a very short time on their attention, nor should he have at all risen after the able and comprehensive speech of the Right Honourable Baro net near him were it not for one or two observations made by the Hon. and Learned Member who had last spoken. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman commenced by observing that he thought the course adopted by the Honourable Baronet the Member for North Warwick shire, of proceeding by resolution, was the least objectionable one, be it cause by so doing lie avoided the necessity of entering into any details. I Now this, be confessed. appeared to him very singular reasoning.— (Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly for those gentlemen who appealed to the feelings without consulting the reason of those whom they addressed, mid who dwelt upon exaggerated, and, in some cases, unfounded facts, in order to justify the. sweeping away of the whole system, regardless of the consequences to this country or the colonies—undoubtedly, with gentlemen who had these views the difficulties of the question were materially diminished, and they might find it the most con venient course to take the resolutions, and thus avoid the responsi culty which attached to those who grappled with the real diffiColty by bringing in a But the resolution must be acted on, either by the Government or some other party. The Hon. Gentleman who proposed it must be aware that the Government would not\ take it up, and it was equally clear that his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) acting on the dic tates of justice and enlightened humanity, could not take on himself the responsibility of carrying such a resolution into effect. Was it wise, safe, or prudent to leave it-on the journals of the House unreseinded and uncommented upon, or was it possible to do so without producing con. sequences the meet mischievous and dangerous ? In order to counteract the impression which must be produced by the news of the resolution tending to convey that Parliament had decreed the immediate emanci pation of the negroes, an immediate step was necessary to be taken.— (Hear, hear,' hear.) As an instance of the facility with which the most conscientious were betrayed into the greatest misstatements, he need only refer to the assertions made by the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin that Vie Legislature of Barbadoes had come to the determination not to pass emancipation, and in Ins explanation, when contradicted by his Honourable Friend the Under Secretary for the Colonies, the Honourable and Learned Gentle ' man immediately qualified his first statement by saying " true, the Legislature of Barbadoes did not declare it, but two or three principal speakers did." Why, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman was one of the principal speakers in the English House of Commons, but he should be very sorry that its proceedings and views should in all cases be interpreted by his language.—(Opposition cheers.) The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then proceeded to refer to a document in which it was asserted that three children were turned out to starve, and that the owner of the estate refused to give them any assistance. Unfor. innately for the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's argument, this was not a new charge: it had been met, investigated, sifted to the bottom, and proved to be utterly destitute of foundation. There Wa3 in the papers on the table a despatch Of Sir G. APGreg,or's, stating this the result of the inquiry was that the charge met with a complete refu tation. Now, thi s wa s one i ns t ance o f t h e topics of declamation, or rather exaggeration, dwelt upon not o n ly i n t h at House, but in pub lic meetings, whirls were the more excitable, b ecause they were attended by moral and religious men holding in the strongest abhorrence the crimes which had been committed in the colonies, and giving a cordial assent to the statements which they heard, but which the authors and purveyors of those statements refute to have sifted by a Committee, which they deprecated and refused such persons, acting on the warmest and purest feelings, slid do gross injustice to the planters, and would, if their opinions and views were acted on, involve this question in insupe rable and interminable difficulties.—(Cheers.) Mr. BAINES said that the charge :which the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin had made was contained in a late newspaper. Lord STANLEY—WeII, a newspape'r paragraph was certainly not a very good foundation for such a charge ; but though it did not allude to the fact as occurring in last July, it so happened that this anonymous communication was a repetition of what originally appeared in a news. paper also, and which,when the matter was inquired into, received a direct and formal refutation.—(Cheers.) This was not the time to die. cuss whether the system of apprenticeship should have been adopted or not, or whether it was prudent to introduce it to mitigate the dangers which were to be .apprehended from a sudden transition frona slavery to freedom, or whether it was unnecessary and vexatious in the first in. stance to adopt such a course. He entertained very strong feelings on that point, and he was persuaded that if they had proceeded in the first instance to abolish slavery, they should have hazarded the safety of the West India Colonies, and risked the welfare of the negroes themselves. —(Cheers.) lie believed this was the opinion entertained at that time, ono he believed at this time by a great proportion of those who watched the gradual and safe progress of the Emancipation Act. But in order to form a safe and sound judgment as to the discretion which was then then existed, and subjected to the feelings and influences which then pre_ m the West-Indies. It was not possible wailed, both in this co untr y and • • exerci s ed, it was necessary to p la c e ourselves in the circumstanc es which to look at the question .the same light now, with the experience which wa s since attained, and when the proposal of the apprentice ship Was first introduced. And he, for his part, was quite satisfied to take on his shoulders the responsibility of having introduced a measure sc which, notwithstand in g the p ro p hecies an d prognostics of bloodshed, to such results as could b e th us c h arac t er i se d b y hi s e ruin, a nd disappointm ent, had c om bined humanity - with justice to the planters, ?Colonial Department :—" It mus t b e hi g hl y grat i fy i ng to youe st diat e o ninddthtlhe results of your labours in the superintendence of the ah naryitsltlactret entmade, great change which has been effected in the colonial system, placed in so clear and satisfactory a light as they appear to me to be in the docu ments now before me. That a perfect system could at once have been established and enforced in substitution for that which existed for so long a series of years was not, indeed, to be expected by any man of common sense and ordinary acquaintance with human nature. It is no matter of surprise, that evils of great inveteracy and malignity should have left som e traces of their former existence, and that in British Guiana, as elsewhere, the authority of tlfe law and the administration of justice should not have been in every instance effective and im- I con f ess , however, that I derive from a review of those im peccable. since the operation of the new law, benefits of no ordi_ we ll as from other sources of information, the strongest Papers, as the statements re conviction that, even during the comparatively short period which has character,elapsed and fay equal to any reasonable anticipations,' have :esuNltoowf ashsesrinetrvieat: not on the authority of exaggerated 'statements, but b on ee a n calm realised con in) thee m c olonies n . When colony a Nn u vd n h d ge e en r n he a e o a u rl e r r ae d G , vi e; Government." the e t i dating to all the colon and perilous experiment th which had succeeded beyond his most sangu i ne expec t a ti on s, and when e question was whether th e y would allow the Period of appre nticeship to continue for two years, when it might termi. nate safely, or pu t a stop to it now—when no prepar a ti on was made by the Legislature, in accordance with the views the adv oca t es of the negro, who main tained that all preparation should be put eiTto the last moment—it would, in his opinion, he madness to abandon the prospect w hich was now held out of a final and satisfactory settl ement, and enter on a field of irritation, excitement, and confusion, the r esu l t of which he defied any man to predict.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentle maa thee Member for Dublin said there was no contract. As the organ of the Government when the measure was brought forward, h e d eclared term of the appre nt iceship and compensation-money were stipu tist the datedas returns for the cordial assent of the planters. As to the amount of the one and the length of time other, they were matters of discussion and negotiation with the West Indian bodies. The terms were su b m itt e d to P ar liament — by Parliament they were considered. The changes made were not from a loan, but a grant of 15,000,0001. to a grant of 20,000,000/., and the reduction of the term of the apprenticeship to six years. What was the condition imposed by Act of Parliament on these grants? That the Legislature should see that adequate and ma. tisfactory provision was made for securing the objects of the emancipa tion measure. He admitted there were defects in that measure, but he denied that it had failed. Sir J. Carmichael Smyth, last October, said that the effect of the apprenticeship was to make the negroes more reli gious, to increase their, marriages, and to diminish the convictions of adults , " The transition from a disgusting and almost naked slave, to a cheerful and decently clad labourer had taken place in Guiana, and must strike one echo had left the colony some years ago, and had lately occasion to revisit it." He did not say that this, being the condition of the negroes, proved the necessity for their immediate emancipation ; but all he said was,. this, that he looked to the progress of a s till greater change, without any very great degree of apprehen sion."—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) If in the most prosperous of the colonies, with the exception of Antigua and Barbadoes, the best antici pation that Sir J. C. Smyth could entertain from the present working of the system was, to look forward to ultimate freedom, "without any great apprehension"— what did they think would be the prospect of safety and happiness in colonies less advanced, less prepared for the change, the feelings of whose inhabitants had been less conciliated, if ' they were violently to sever the ties which now united them, and take a course which might excite unalterable hostility ?—(Cheers.) He knew not who was the man who would be bold or bad enough to subject a Government to such responsibility ; but if there was no man who would accept office, subject to the charge of acting on the resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman with that sense of the Parliair7ent of Great Britain clear and decided, was it not double madness, when it was known they could not be carried into effect, to send them out es the decisions of the Legislature, not to promote any good purpose, but to produce an ex. citement which must for ever destroy the hopes of seeing a peaceable and friendly settlement of this great question ?—(Loud cheers.) He hoped that th e conviction produced on the minds of the planters by time debates of the present Session would be to convince them that the British Legislature and Government were equally determined not to admit any, the slightest or smallest, infraction of the pledge which they had given, and not to listen to any prolongation of time term of the apprentice ship; and that they would see that by cooperation, those years which now remained of the apprenticeship, and whirls was not a moment too long, might be usefully acid safely employed in devising and enacting those laws which would ultimately lead time negroes from the transition state to a safe, wholesome, and constitutional condition of freedom. — (Loud cheers.) Dr. LUSH INGTON rose, but the cries of " Divide" were so loud and long continued, that it was not until the Speaker had interfered that he could obtain a hearing,. He must say that lie wa; disgusted at some of the arguments which he had heard to-night, in which some Hon . Members appeared to speak of this matter as of a contract for the sale of an estate or other inanimate commodity. They were engaged now, how THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY 29, 1838. ever, in a much higher and more important subject—no less than the hap piness or misery of 700,000 fellow-beings.. The Hon. Baronet and the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire having referred to the state of Guiana, he begged to be allowed to read a short passage from the dispatch of the Acting Governor of that Colony, dated 17th March last, which *as as follows :—" The Acting Governor has perused the entire evidence with feelings of the deepest regret, and of the utmost reprobation of the hospital system, and of the greatest as tonishment that it has hitherto escaped detection and exposure." With respect to the charge of clamour which has been raised by the Right Honourable Baronet opposite against the petitioners on this subject, he had no hesitation in maintaining that never was there petitions on any great public subject which savoured less of clamour, not even the pe titions on the subject of Parliamentary Rcfbrm, against which he sup posed the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had nothing to allege. He knew many of the parties to these petitions, and he could answer for it that a more conscientious set of men never existed, and that they were not actuated in any degree by factious or interested motives. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, who was frequently interrupted in the course of his speech, then sat down amidst cheers. Lord J. RUSSELL could assure the House that he had no Wish un necessarily to prolong the debate, but he thought that after the appeal made by his Hon. Friend who had just sat down, and by others out of the House, he should not be doing his duty in this House, nor to the Government, nor to the country, if he did not declare that he should give his firm support to his Hon. Friend, and his most strenuous op position to the amendment of the Hon. Baronet. With respect to the character of those who had signed the petitions on this subject, and who were earnest for the immediate abolition of the apprentice ship system, he wished at once to state for himself the opinion which he entertained - of those petitions. He believed that the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin gave no exaggerated character of these individuals when he said that they were amongst the most moral, the most religious, and the most worthy members of society: But he must say that when, in 1833, the measure of emancipation was under consideration, he recollected that this very party ex pressed strongly the opinion that slavery was a crime of so deep a dye that nothing but the immediate abblition of the practice would sa tisfy the ends of justice, and that Parliament was not• authorised to retain the slaves in forced labour a single day longer. , He (Lord J. Rus sell) had a great respect for the opinion of these persons; but, at the same time, this opinion was one which was entertained by them at the period he referred to, and which they at the same time agreed to pass over; and he saw no reason for their reviving it at the present moment. Whilst he spoke in terms of high respect, however, for the agitators of this question, he must say that some there were, he hoped few in num ber, who took the part they did in this matter with the view chicfly of injuring those whom they considered party or personal opponents.— (Hearflicar.) He must say that he considered conduct of this kind degrading to the great cause it pretended' to espouse, anil to the good and conscientious men with whom these parties were associated in its advocacy.—(Hear.) The fact was that he was now in the progress of a great experiment, and at a period which gave a hope of a happy eventual conclusion ; but in order to insure this result they must have this con dition—that the Colonial Legislatures and proprietors -should act in harmony tvith those who were afterwards to become the free inha. bitants of the colonies. It would not do suddenly to deprive the former of what they considered their just rights, nor to ab - solve the latter all at once from all the habits of subordination to-which they had been aces's'. tomed. Various measures would have to be prepared for the perfect car rying into effect of the EnancipationAct, and for which they had not now too much time before them ; but if that interval were occupied in keep ing up a perpetual war in the colonies, we should have to thank our selves ; if, instead of succeeding in establishing peace and happiness, we should find that we had laid out a large sum in compensation to pro duce nothing but anarchy and discord.—(Cheers.) House would alter the opinions of some Noble Lords, and that tin re would be a larger number to vote with him than on last Monday. The original question for going into" Committee and the amendment of the Noble. Earl having been put from the Woolsack, - The Earl of WINCHILSEA objected to the Bill, because it corn. prised the whole of the indigent population. There was another part of the measure which he would never sanction—the powers that were to be given to carry the measure into execution.—(Hear, hear.) He would contend that the powers proposed to be given to the Commissioners were beyond those enjoyed by anybody in the State, even by the Crown. He had a most decided objection to those powers which were given to the Poor Law Commissioners for England ; but, great as those powers were, they sunk into insignificance when compared with the powers contemplated by this Bill. They should also take into consideration the difference between the two countries. In England the law had been well watched by the gentry residing in every part of the country, who had acted as a check, and a wholesome check upon the powers of the Commissioners. But what was "the situation of Ireland ? In most parts there were - no resident gentlemen to act as constitutional guards on the Commissioners, and he feared that unless there was some other means deviSed to carry out the measure he for one could never agree to such extraordinary powers being conferred. With respect to the proposition of his Noble Friend, he should recommend to him to take further consideration. In any measure, however, he should hope that in the first instance it would be confined, to the sick, aged and im. potent. . On these grounds he had voted for the second reading of the Bill; but he certainly did not consieer himself bound to vote in the same way at any subsequent stage. The Earl of WICKLOW was aware that the measure would have an efrect upon the owners of property, but how could that be avoided ? The law would require assessments, and assessments must of necessity affect property. It might, too, occasion emharrasments to the owners of pro perty. It was true that the powers of the Commissioners were mcst enor mous, most frightful ; but to adopt such a system of legislation they must give great power.—(Hear, hear.) He was also of opinion that a greater degree of power ought to be given to Commissioners in a country where there had never before been poor laws. It was certainly a great evil, but it was an evil incident to the introduction of any poor law whatever. The greatest objection he had was, that it contained pro. visions which might be extended so as to transfer the property of the country from the one class to the other. He also saw an absurdity in the Bill, which was that no assessments were to take place for two years. If the measure were intended to work beneficially and economically it would be necessary to confine the relief to those contemplated by the Bill. De titution was a better test than any other that could be adopted, for if any other were adopted, and the workhouses made comfortable asylums, let them be as numerous as possible, in the course of a month they would be filled to overflowing. The present Bill most improperly, as it appeared to him, divided the assessment between the occupier and the landlord. Now, lie thought that the entire burthen ought to be placed upon the occupier. He knew it would be said that such an arrengement as this would be attended with the rubs of the occupier, but he would meet that objection by introducing a Clause into the Bill for the settlement of Tithes to place the Whole burthen of the payment of Tithes upon the landlord, and to relieve the tenant altogether from it. IL: was convinced that by follow rig this course they would successfully accomplish the settlement of these two important questions. Earl STANHOPE said that those who, in common with himself, viewed with abhorrence the cruel and unchristian English Poor-law must feel bound to oppose the introduction of a similar measure into another part of the kingdom. It was said that tasese workhouses, which, as if in mockery, were called asylums, were to be made less comfortable for the inraetes than their own cottages ; but he thought it would puzzle the ingenuity *of even one of the three Commissioners to apply this principle to Ireland. In that unfortunate and ill-governed coun try there was a greater degree of indigence than in any of the ci vilised countries of Europe. The Irish peasant at present lay upon the bare earth, with merely a little straw interposed for a bed, and his food consisted of little better than potatoes and salt ; but, to reduce Isis condition to the test of destitution, he supposed that the Commissioners would find it necessary to dispense with the straw, and to take away the salt, and reduce the quantity of potatoes, in order to render the situa. thin of the peasant worse than it was at present. He had conversed with various persons connected with Ireland, and he had been assured that no extremity of distress would force the Irish peasant to enter one of those union workhouses—those abodes of misery; and if they did enter them, in some moment of desperation they would be tempted to destroy them by fire or demolish them by force. This measure encoun. tered the warmest opposition of every class in Ireland, including the labouring classes as well as every other class in the country. They had peen told that this Bill was founded upon the English Poor.law; but, with respect to the English Poor-law, it might be said as the poet had said of hell— The gallery was then cleared for a division— For the resolutions.. For the amendment.. Majority against the amendment —72 The resolutions were then agreed to. 250 .... ..... 178 The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House ad; journed at two o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 2S. The Lora) CHANCELLOR took his scat on the Woolsack at,the usual hour. NEGRO SLAVERY. Petitions were presented for the abolition of Negro Slavery, by Earl GREY and the Marquis of SLIGO, • IRISH POOR LAW BILL. Petitions were presented against this Bill by the Duke of WELLING. TON, Earl Wickaow, and Lord CARBERRY. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. The Bishop of SALISBURY presented a petition against the Eccle siastical Commission. " And in the lowest deep, a lower still." A power was given by that which ought not to be tolerated under any free Government. The Bill gave to three Commissioners a most des potic and arbitrary power of taxation, and, in fact, it depended on the pleasure of these Commissioners whether or not the whole landed pro. petty of Ireland should not be confiscated. If they persevered in this measure the time would come when tt:e estates of many of their Lord. ships, as well as of other landed proprietors of Ireland, would be subject, if not to confiscation, at least to partition. Whilst he opposed this Bill, no one was more anxious than he was for the enactment of a well judged and wisely - considered system for the redef of the poor of Ire. land. Having expressed his opposition to the present measure he would now state what were the measures which he thought it desirable should he proposed. He should submit that, if any well-framed measure of poor law, relief should in the first instance he confined to those who were incapable of labour, and, instead of appointing three Commis sioners, he thought the simplest mode would be to allow each parish to tax themselves, and the landlords of the parish in cer_ tarn proportion to caner this ohj et late effect. In several in. stances in Ireland, there was a class of intermediate tenants or middle men between the occupier and tine landlo.d, and that, though the occu. pier paid snore the landlord receiveJ less, aed in all such cases he would propose to lay the rate exclusively upon the miedh,men. He would Propose, also, to find employment for the able-bodied labourers. There were two kinds of employment—first, works of public utility and ad. vantage; and, secondly, works which yields 1 a profitable return. The first including the deepening of rivers and the making of roads, and the Grand Jury assessmtnt. With respect to expense shou'd be defrayed by those works whictawould yield a profitable result, it appeared, from the Reports of Commissioners, that one.fousth of tlfe surface of Ireland was uncultivated; and he would propose, by a large and libsral issue of Ex chequer bills, to bring these lands into cultivation, and thus to give em. voyment to a large portion of the population who were now in a state of indigence. He had no hope that they would imelrove this Bill in Corn. mittee, and therefore he would support the motion of his Noble Friend. Lord FITZGERALD and VESEY.thotieht that this was a very in convenient time to press the present motion. Should his Noble Friend, however, persevere hi his motion, perhaps the Noble Marquis who in. tended to more an instructions to the Committee would not take the sense of the Heuse on that motion before going into Committee, but (as we understood the Noble Lord) would move it in another form in the Committee. If, however, the Noble Marquis would take the sense of the House on his motion he would feel bound to vote in support of the resolution which the Noble Marquis intended to propose. The. Earl cf MANSFIELD viewed the introduction of a measure of poor laws into Ireland, a country where a poor law was altogether un. known, as a proceeding that would require the greatest caution and cir cumspection. The measure before them had now advanced to that stage when it was propbsed to consider it in Committee, and perhaps to those who concurred iti the principle of the measure it might be desirable to go into Committee, that they might endeavour to effect those improve ments in the details of the measure which they thought desirable. But, for his part, he could not consent to go into Committee on the Bill, as he had formed a decided opinion that it was not prudent to introduce a poor law into Ireland. The Duke of WELLINGTON would submit to their Lordships that having given the Bill a second reading it was expedient that they should allow it to go into Committee. That would be the proper place to cots. shier all the objections that could be made to particular clauses of the Bill. In Committee such amendments as were fit and desirable to be made could be effected, and they would have besides an opportunity of re-considering the Bill again in its future stages. He admitted that the Bill might be defective, that many of its clauses might be highly objec. tionable, but the proper course would be to consider those clauses in Committee, where they could alter and amend them, or reject them altogether and •substitute others. He would submit to those who cp. posed this measure, but who yet admitted the necessity of applying sore remedy t , the state of the destitute poor of Ireland, that it was incumbent on them to prepare some measure for the same object, and to submit it te Parliament in the course of the present session. There was IRISH POOR LAW, a measure in circulation which was understood to have been proposed On the Order of the Day for going into Committee on this Bill, by a former set of Commissioners, and their Lordships, if they liked, Earl RODEN rose to express his opinion on the Bill, which he might consider that measure; but, considering all that passed on that characterie&l as calculated to produce more mischief than any other subject in the country, and in the other House of Parliament with refer. that could he applied to Ireland, and said that it might justly be ence to this measure, he thought their Lordships were bound to give it termed a Bill for promoting penury and agitation in that their fullest consideration. He therefore entreated them to give the Bil 1 country.—(Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.) He considered the Bill fair play, and go into the consideration or it in Committee without re. highly detrimental to the poor themselves—that it was arbitrary and ference to any party feelings whatever.—(Hear, hear.) tyrannical in its provisions, and tended to sap the very foundations of Earl STANHOPE said that if the Noble Duke wished, lie (Earl Stats. charity in Ireland. Higley objectionable w a s th e tremendous power hope) should be disposed to move resolutions explanatory of his plan. given to the Commissioners, and the interference with private property The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that, as the Noble Duke had which the Bill authorized ; and he should, therefore, move as an amend- stated that this measure had come up to their Lordships supported by a ment, that the Bill be committed this day six months.—(Hear, hear.) lane majority of the other House of Parliament, he was desirous to refer In expressing his opinion of this measure, he would venture to say that to the list of that majority, to show what was the feeling in the different it was as important as any that was ever submitted to the consideration of counties in Ireland with respect to this measure. The Noble Marquis Parliament. He had felt it his duty not to be satisfied with the opinions was about to read the lists of the divisions which had taken place in the of only those who moved in the same rank of life as himself—those House of Commons, when he was interrupted by loud cries of " Order Possessed of property, and of high station—but he had felt it his duty order." to go into the cottages of the poor, with the provisions of this Bill, to The Earl of MANSFIELD rose to order, and submitted whether ascertain what their feelings would he if by privation or poverty they anything that had occurred in the other House of Parliament could be should be brought under the operation of the measure; and he could made the subject of comment in their Lordships' House. say, from the highest to the lowest, from the first to the last, lie found Earl STANHOPE was understood to contend that there was nothing but one sentiment, and that sentiment was embodied in the petition irregular in referring to the pulilished lists of divisions cf the House of lying on the table. It had been his misfortune on several occasions to Commons. differ with their Lordships' House on some mbst important subject con- The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that as the Hems of Com. nected with Ireland ; but h e could say, from the consequences which mons published not only numbers, but names, in their lists, he could had since taken place, that he now had no occasion to lament the opi- not see any reason why those lists should not be used by way of argu nions which he had fo rme d, or to w i sh that he had pursued a course dif- ment in their Lordships' House, ferent from that which he bad adopted. Great as had been those dif_ The Earl of lIADDINGTON said that although it was quit e true the ferences of opinion from 18d9 d own t o th e present period, yet he would House of Commons published their divisions, he still did not think it venture to say that they had never been in a measure of greater magnis would be orderly on the part of their Lordships to refer to the proceed. tude (always excepting one) than the measure now proposed.— ings of the other branch of the Legislature. (Hear.) The measure he conceived to be detrimental to the poor them. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that, as the feeling of their selves—a measure most arbitrary in the powers which it gave to the Lordships seemed to be against the course he had been about to take, he Commissioners, and a measure which would sap the very foundation of would not persevere in it. charity itself in the country. They were living in days of great change. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE considered the arguments urged No one could tell to_day wh a t th e morrow wou ld bri ng forth, and, be- against the Bill wholly unanswerable, and he would defy the promoters lieving as he did that they were on the verge of a great crisis, he, for of the measure to show any calculation which could justify it. He one, would never consent to place the security of his property in the denied Wet the people of Ireland were in favour of it, and he could, hands of any Commissioners, though they were the b es t men on t h e without fear of contradiction, say that the landholders in that country ear th. He was told that no d anger cou ld ar i se ; b u t h e would be glad were opposed to it. 'rho Bill, he contended, was wholly uncalled for ; to know ghat guarantee he could have of this vigilance of parliament ? but he would not enlarge on these topics, because the House had come Might not Parliament, instead of putting down thi s tyran n y, aid and to the conclusion that there should be a Committee. To that deaeon abet it? He remembered in the debate on th e Constab u l ar y Bill for he was ready to bow ; but, although he was prepared to go into Com. Ireland he endeavoured to persuade their Lordships not to deprive the mittee, it was his intention to bring forward the instruction of which unpaid magistracy of the coun t ry of t h a t power ves t e d i n th em by the he had given notice, and the more especially as he understood it was Constitution of appointing the constables. He was told that there not the intention of his Noble Friend (the Earl of Roden) to press his would be that excellent, high-minded officer, Colonel Shaw Ken. motion to a division. He had been credibly inforMed that the introduc. nedy, appointed to the controul of the police, and that, there. tion of this Bill had led to extensive proceedings for the ejection of poor fore, no danger could possibly arise. But he would ask his te nan ts from their holdings. He knew this to be tho fact, and the reason Noble Friends behind him where was their guarantees now— which had indue, d landlords to adopt such a course was the alarm which where was Colonel Shaw Kennedy now ? Colonel Shaw Kennedy they felt in consequence of the rating clause, and the uncertainty as to had resigned, and he (the Earl of Redone would ask, was it not be- the amount to which they might be taxed if that provision were retained pause that high-minded man would not brook the prostitution of his in the Bill. The object which his instruction would have in view was office to political purposes?—(Hear, hear.) He would ask the to enable Ministers to consider whether they ought to proceed with the Noble Earl the rend Lieutenant of Ireland, whether it was not be. Bill in its present shape—whether they should not assist the House in cause he could not protect his officer, Captain vi g n e tt e s, from the so altering and modifying it that-it could be safely passed, or whether Priesthood of Carlow ? The powers to be given to the Commissioners they should not withdraw it altogether, and bring in another measure were greater than those employed by the Executive, and would their founded on the proposition to be embraced in his instruction. There Lordships, with their eyes open, say " Content," and allow such a would he time enough to take the latter course even during the present Bill to become the law of the land ? Another most important matter Session. His strong objection to the measure was, that it would not was the system of allotment and taxation. There were very few relieve the poor from poverty ; and as to the workhouse test, he must few ancient resident proprietors in Ireland whose estates were not as'-: their Lordships what right they could have to compel the poor of mortgaged. Now what did this propose to do I It proposed to rate Ireland to submit to such a test which, after all, would be no test or the individual—not according to what they possessed, but according to destitution ? (Hear.) This was the principle one which the Bill w their rent-rolls. He wouldput a case. He knew a gentleman of high founded, lout it was, in his opinion, a principle which was not only ba character and of ancient family, beloved 'by all around him, and who in itself, but could never be carried into execution. was in the possession of an estate, according to this rent-roll, of Lord WYNFORD said that in going into Committee their Lordships 5,0001. a year. Now, out of this 5,000/, h e h a d to pay on account of were only endeavouring to carry out the principle to wh ich they had ancient mortgages, family charges, in an nu i t i es and dowers to the agreed in allowing the Bill to he read a second time—the principle that 'amount of 4,5001., leaving a net income of 5001. per annum. Taking some provision for the relief of the peer of Ireland was necessary. His the rate of es. in the pound the Pound this individual wool be ruined object in wishing the House to go into Committee was simply to aster. at one fell swoop. This might be he wbuld admit, a n i so lated case, but tain, if Possible, what the nature and extent of that relief was to be ; he knew it to be a real one, therefore he cited it to their Lordships. but farther titan this he did net mean to go, for there were many parts sew not to be liabl e t o rate te land; bu with such respect a ect pro.t o Having said that much, and having- disch arged his duty to his e°nsei. of the measure to which he had s t ro ng objections. It might be des cr y. mice, he would move that the word " now " be left out, for the purpose ing of consideration whether mortgages 'ou of having inserted the words "thi s d ay s i x months. " as well as the owners nd Earl FITZ WILLIA el would put it to th e N o bl e E arl whether it denying relief to time able-bodied, a all le h could say was, that would not be possible to devise se i ne ot h er mode of obtaining his object penal win his opinion, were th e able-bodied menas most unjust, for, occupiers6l f by amending the Bill so as to render it better adapted to t h e pe o ple unable to obtain employment, they were as poor and impotent in every of Ireland ? respect as any other c lass of the destitute that cou ld be named. I The Earl of RODEN had some hope that what he had addressed to the 1 The Marquis of CLAN RICARDE s hould move, by way of amend. POOR-LAW. Mr. Parker (from the Poor-law Commissioners) appeared at the bar with papers on the Poor.laws. SLAVE TRADE. Lord BROUGHAM wished to knoW if it were true that a memorial had been received by the Government from British Guiana, for a sus pension of the regulations regarding corporeal punishment; and if so, what answer had been made. Lord MELBOURNE was understood to say he had heard of no such raemmial. Lord BROUGHAM—I am most happy to hear that, for it is a proof that no such memorial could have been received ; he. cause, of course; if such a memorial had reached the Colonial Office, it is not of so little importance as not to be communicated to the rest Of the Government. The Noble and Learned Lord then said, as his Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Office was not in his plact, he would merely state that he intended to ask what had been done as to a dispatch which had been sent out to the Mauritius in August, 1835, directing the liberation of upwards of 2,000 negroes who had been illegally detained in slavery—what had been done since to carry that di rection into effect ? TII3 Marquis of ANGLESEY presented petitions for the abolition of negro slavery. THE CORONATION. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY presented a petition agreed to at a public meeting, held at the Freemasons' Tavern, on the 14th instant, praying that the Coronation be postponed till August, and be then con ducted on a scale of grandeur suited to tt,e dignity of the occasion: The Noble Iciarquis supported the prayer of the petition at weat length, but in a very indistinct and nearly inaudible tone. Earl FITZWILLIAM said that anything that fell from the Noble Marquis was entitled to great weight, and any cause must derive im mense advantage from his advocacy._(A laugh.) But he (Earl F.) had the misfortune greatly to ditTer from the Noble Marquis on the subject. The question was whether the tradesthen of London should keep their Lordships in town till the Ist of June or the Ist of August.L.(A laugh.) He believed Coronations to be little better than idle and useless pageants. —(lronical cries of" Hear," from the Opposition.) Was the loyalty of Noble Lords who said " Hear"—was their loyalty incomplete ? Would it be added to by the idle ceremony of placing coronets on their beads and walking in a ridiculous procession ?—(Hear.) He repeated corona -tions were suited only for barbarous or semi barbarous times,—for periods when crowns were won and lost by unruly violence, and ferocious contests. Ho was persuaded that her Majesty had been too well educated, and possessed too much natural good sense, to attach such: mighty importance to this useless ceretnony. And he doubted much whether the exhibition of a youthful Princess as a spectacle, to be gazed at for hours by a mob, was calculated to impress the sound think ing portion of her subjects with very strong notions of propriety. The Marquis of SALISBURY was astonished to hear the solemn public compact between the Sovereign and the nation designated as en " idle and useless pageant."—(Earl Fitzwilliam—No, not the " compact.") He (the Marquis of Salisbury) considered it hu. radiating that this great country should be held up to the world as unable to afford a dinner to its Sovereign on so important an occasion. —(Hear, hear, from the Marquis of Londonderry, and a laugh.) Earl CIONCURRY, who remarked that their Lordships would have soon to consider a Bill establishing a provision for millions of his fellow countrymen in Ireland, said, he thought the Ministers had done quite right to keep eonomy in view, in respect to the Coronation.—(llearo The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—Did I understand the. Noble Earl (Fitzwilliam) to be of opinion that there should be no Coronation ? Earl Frrz WILLIAM—Yes. The Marquis LONDONDEIIRY—Then I think the Noble Earl must follow up that by saying that there ought to be no Lord Fitzwilliam.— (Loud laughter.) , I